#106400 From: "Buddy" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? budla Hi, Sarah - Sorry I am so late in replying - just lost track. I live in Shreveport, Louisiana, tucked up in the northwest corner of the state. Hardly a hotbed of Buddhist studies. Lots of Baptists. However, there are two teachers in town: one freelance and claiming adherence to no linage, school, or whatever, and the other teaching a Tibetan meditation he learned in Dharamsala. Neither are professed Buddhists, although the second claims to be "very influenced" by Buddhist teaching. I am trying to start a study/practice group in connection with the local Theravada (Thai, Dhammayut) Wat. Buddy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Buddy, > > Just wished to welcome you to DSG! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddy" wrote: > > I am less than a beginner with the Abhidhamma. I know what it is, but have not read any of it - just references in other material. I had not know of your work until I started reading this group, and was yesterday trying to decide which book of yours to begin with. I was thinking "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." Or should I start with another one? > ... > S: As Nina said, if you start with this text, just go very slowly and ask lots of questions here or share any of your comments. > > We'd all like to hear how you get on and find it. You might find it helpful to print out the Pali glossary to be found in the files section of DSG and have it handy as you read. > > By the way, where do you live? > > Metta > > Sarah (living in Hong Kong). > ======= > #106401 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------------- <. . .> KH: > I am claiming that the monks described in the texts as practising satipatthana did not have craving for future enlightenment. (- nor any other kind of craving.) They had right understanding of the present-moment reality. > > H: > Ken, there were beginners, even worldlings, among them <. . .> --------------- I am talking about the ones who were developing satipatthana. (That would include those who were still at the pariyatti stage.) ------------------------- <. . .> H: > They went forth and followed the bhikkhu rules without a reason? Are you saying that they studied Dhamma and (as you say) counted breaths entirely purposelessly? Would that not make them incredibly stupid? ------------------------- Once they had understood the Buddha's teaching they no longer saw enlightenment as something in the future. They knew it was totally a matter of understanding the present reality. -------------------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > The question is whether <. . .> they carried out their activities without any purpose. I have no idea why you think so. ----------------------------------------------- They didn't wander purposelessly around in circles. :-) But they understood "purposeful activity" in the particular sense taught by the Buddha, not in the general sense understood by worldlings. ---------- <. . .> H: > Even the Bodhisatta, when he embarked on his search, did so with the purpose of putting an end to suffering. 'Purpose' isn't a dirty word. ;-) ---------- It is if it implies permanence where there is only impermanence. If I can do something today that will put an end to my suffering tomorrow, I must be a permanent entity, mustn't I? If, on the other hand, I can see that my present reality is just a conditioned dhamma - anicca, dukkha and anatta - then there is no me. Dukkha is no longer "my" problem. Nor anyone else's problem. :-) Ken H #106402 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations and mind-reading (judging) ashkenn2k Dear Alex >How do you know how much accumulations you have or have not (or others have or have not)? KO:? One would know because when one read the text or listen to dhamma talk, if their accumulations are high, they understand it very fast and not like me has to keep reading and listening and still see the world like a "mad man".??? >IMHO, if a person is born in a sufficiently good environment, with sufficient discernment, has access to Dhamma teaching and understands the value Dhamma - then at that point s/he has lots of accumulations already in order to be in such a very rare opportunity. > >The chances of being in this position is very very rare, as you probably know. Most people do not have this chance. Insects and other apaya beings outnumber humans by big magnitude. In a sense, we have very good accumulations already. IMHO. > >IMHO it is not very productive to blame accumulations for everything and avoiding studying, considering and being aware of satipatthana. KO:? We are not blaming accumulations, we must understand our own strength.? Without knowing our own strength, some of the trainings in the text would be counter productive.? The sutta formulae is very clear, it is meant for recluse.? The precepts alone written in the suttas?are already?for recluse and not for lay persons.? Without virture there is no concentration, that is the written clearly in my email on the study on factors for jhanas with the sutta quote. When we learn dhamma, we should be truthful and not try to suit the suttas text to our own understanding.?This is a common mistake people take which I also at times will fall into.? We should be true to ourselves and remain true to the?texts. Cheers Ken O #106403 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? sarahprocter... Hi Buddy, --- On Tue, 30/3/10, Buddy wrote: >Sorry I am so late in replying - just lost track. .... S: Not a problem....I'm very behind too... Thanks for introducing yourself below: ... >I live in Shreveport, Louisiana, tucked up in the northwest corner of the state. Hardly a hotbed of Buddhist studies. Lots of Baptists. However, there are two teachers in town: one freelance and claiming adherence to no linage, school, or whatever, and the other teaching a Tibetan meditation he learned in Dharamsala. Neither are professed Buddhists, although the second claims to be "very influenced" by Buddhist teaching. I am trying to start a study/practice group in connection with the local Theravada (Thai, Dhammayut) Wat. ... S: Good luck with the group - let us know how it goes. I assume there are Thai monks at the Wat? Can you discuss the Dhamma with them? You mentioned you have just started taking an interest in the Abhidhamma. Do you see the relevance of it to your life at this moment? If so, how? Metta Sarah ======== #106404 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:31 am Subject: Study and Practice for PT. was Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sukinderpal Hi Pt, I appreciate you putting so much effort to try and explain things to me, including about the straw man. I've been thinking about how I should respond and where to start from and finally settled on the idea of starting on a clean slate. What do you think about this? I'll try not to bring in such things as your present practice, but this I guess, will not stop me from using the so called straw man anyway. However I trust you to bring to my attention whenever this happens so that corrections can be made and who knows, by the time we finish, I may come out a better discusser than before. ;-) I'll start with some propositions, but you may have your own ideas and wish to start with something else, in which case we can proceed with there. I won't start from the very beginning, but assuming we both agree on some of the basics, such as the difference between concept and reality, the division of the latter into Rupa, Citta, Cetasikas and Nibbana. That the first three are conditioned and is what is really there from moment to moment, I put forward these ideas: 1. Right understanding conditions an interest in the Dhamma. 2. This interest manifests at some point as hearing, reading and discussing the Dhamma. 3. Right understanding at the intellectual level leads to right practice and wrong understanding to wrong practice. Would you like to comment on these? Metta, Sukinder #106405 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Virtue nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Good to see you again, Nina. Op 30-mrt-2010, om 7:08 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Alex happened to quote something from recent group activity and I > clicked over here and enjoyed this exchange. I hope you are all > well! A quick comment below: #106406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Chew, Op 30-mrt-2010, om 3:40 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > 1. Anusayas are lying dormant in all cittas as long as its have not > been eradicated by the Path consciousness. > > 2. Kammas are accumulated. > > 3. Paramis are accumulated. > > Usually we say they are accumulated and as it were carried on from > citta to citta. We even were told that they are the forces. > > Are they talking in Ultimate sense? > > Can we note the Anusayas while the Kusala citta is arising? > > Don't we learn that when the Kusala citta arises, it arises > together with it's associated mental factors? There are no other > mental states exist at that moment other than that arising mental > states. ------- N: You analysed matters very well. No, when kusala citta arises anusayas are not noticed. Why? Because they are lying dormant and do not arise. But they can condition the arising of akusala citta and then they arise with the akusala citta. I could not continue yet with the Anusaya Yamaka texts, but further on it has been explained that anusayas are ddormant also in kusala citta and in avyaakata citta. It will take several weeks before i have time to proceed with this. Nina. #106407 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:18 am Subject: Re: kusala for kusala sake gazita2002 hallo Lukas and KenH, thanks for your comments. LOL at you 'getting your coat' Ken. > > was listening to a recorded discussion re kusala actions. That particular conversation was about doing kusala for one's own benefit, or for someone else's benefit, the third was doing kusala for the sake of the dhamma. > > > > my query is how would the third and IMO, the purest kind, manifest itself. > > L: The third one is not for anyone, this is forgeting persons and things. This is kusala development only for the sake of understanding. No persons and things. We think a lot of me, benefits for me, and other people, benefits for them. But when we forget this, then this is practicing kusala for the sake of the dhamma. > > This is development of kusala by right understanding. > > you dont need to practicing for yourself, or practice for other people. Just do it for the sake of the dhamma. No concepts than. > azita: this is how I understand it to be, Lukas.. moments of satipatthana would come into this category I would think. No me, no other people just a reality appearing to sati and panna. patience, courage and good cheer azita #106408 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:37 am Subject: Re: kusala for kusala sake szmicio Dear Azita and KenH, > > This is development of kusala by right understanding. > > > > you dont need to practicing for yourself, or practice for other people. Just do it for the sake of the dhamma. No concepts than. > > > > azita: this is how I understand it to be, Lukas.. moments of satipatthana would come into this category I would think. No me, no other people just a reality appearing to sati and panna. L: Yes no people and things, this is against the stream. I was wondering if you are the owner of www.dhammastudy.com? Best wishes Lukas #106409 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:39 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg kenhowardau Hi pt, ------------------- <. . .> pt: > I guess it depends on the accumulations, for some conventional seems enough, though this might be mostly for the very wise students, as you (maybe) suggest below. ------------------- That is the way it has been explained to me. The Abhidhamma is like baby language, while conventional language suttas are for the grownups. :-) -------------------------- pt: > Perhaps you can give your rendering of that commentarial passage? I attached it below. Thanks. -------------------------- It looks like hard work to me. What's your rendering of it? :-) Notice, BTW, that it talks about the same truth set out in two different renderings. It doesn't talk about two different truths. When the texts talk about two different truths, one of them is conventional, and not related to the Dhamma. Whichever way this passage is interpreted, I am pretty sure it doesn't suggest one audience cannot be taught in both ways. Take the very first sutta, for example, it gives a list of conventional things that are dukkha, and then says, "In short, the five khandhas are dukkha." So two types of teaching are given to the one audience. ------------ <. . .> pt: > I'm not sure, I take it that both would be essentially commiting akusala, and akusala conditions more akusala, so I thought you'd be likely to call it wrong practice. But maybe I'm wrong and some akusala is a good akusala... ------------ That's not exactly what I meant. I meant *for the listener* it would be better to hear the true Dhamma from a bad teacher than to hear false Dhamma from a good teacher. But never mind, it's probably not an important point anyway. Ken H #106410 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:46 am Subject: Re: kusala for kusala sake gazita2002 Hallo Lukas, No I'm not the owner of www.dhammastudy.com. Is it a beneficial site? altho I probably wont go there, my tolerance level with computors is rather low :-( patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Azita and KenH, > > > > This is development of kusala by right understanding. > > > > > > you dont need to practicing for yourself, or practice for other people. Just do it for the sake of the dhamma. No concepts than. > > > > > > > azita: this is how I understand it to be, Lukas.. moments of satipatthana would come into this category I would think. No me, no other people just a reality appearing to sati and panna. > > L: Yes no people and things, this is against the stream. > > I was wondering if you are the owner of www.dhammastudy.com? > > Best wishes > Lukas > #106411 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:23 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "As far as I can tell, it's lack of standards among computer and software manufacturers, or rather their reluctance to comply with suggested standards regarding character encodings...For example, for KenO's messages, I switch to 'Western (Windows-1252)' encoding, and all the weird signs disappear, which means KenO is usually typing his messages in that particular encoding..." Scott: Thank you very much. That makes sense. Sound's like a 'live-with-it' sort of thing. Sincerely, Scott. #106412 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta chewsadhu Dear Nina, Thanks again for spending your time to answer my reply-post. Regarding this statement 'Anusayas can condition the arising of akusala citta and then they arise with the akusala citta', is there any explanation in Patthana? (Sorry for changing the word 'they' to 'Anusayas', hope that I didn't change it wrongly). Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > Op 30-mrt-2010, om 3:40 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > > > 1. Anusayas are lying dormant in all cittas as long as its have not > > been eradicated by the Path consciousness. > > > > 2. Kammas are accumulated. > > > > 3. Paramis are accumulated. > > > > Usually we say they are accumulated and as it were carried on from > > citta to citta. We even were told that they are the forces. > > > > Are they talking in Ultimate sense? > > > > Can we note the Anusayas while the Kusala citta is arising? > > > > Don't we learn that when the Kusala citta arises, it arises > > together with it's associated mental factors? There are no other > > mental states exist at that moment other than that arising mental > > states. > ------- > N: You analysed matters very well. No, when kusala citta arises > anusayas are not noticed. Why? Because they are lying dormant and do > not arise. But they can condition the arising of akusala citta and > then they arise with the akusala citta. > I could not continue yet with the Anusaya Yamaka texts, but further > on it has been explained that anusayas are ddormant also in kusala > citta and in avyaakata citta. It will take several weeks before i > have time to proceed with this. > > Nina. > > > > #106413 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Virtue scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., All, Regarding: "Well, venerable sir, to whatever extent I wish, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. [299] Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhaana…. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the fading away as well of rapture … I enter and dwell in the third jhaana…. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain … I enter and dwell in the fourth jhaana." BB transl. SN 41.8 R: "What do you think of the 'to whatever extent I wish' that Citta keeps repeating? Do you think he is mis-speaking or does this semi-enlightened dude have willful volition in play? ;-) I would think that someone as advanced as he is would avoid making statements as if he can control the jhanas through will, rather than realize that they are merely and solely the product of arising conditions. What's up with that?" Scott: Today's meditators can 'control the jhanas through will?' Wow, Rob. Cock-a-doodle-do. ;-) Here's the Paa.li: Aha.m kho, bhante, yaavadeva aaka"nkhaami, vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharaami . Aha.m kho, bhante, yaavadeva aaka"nkhaami, vitakkavicaaraana.m vuupasamaa...dutiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharaami. Aha.m kho, bhante, yaavadeva aaka"nkhaami, piitiyaa ca viraagaaa...tatiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharaami. Aha.m kho, bhante, yaavadeva aaka"nkhaami, sukhassa ca pahaanaa...catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharaami. Na so khvaaha.m, bhante, eva.m jaananto eva.m passanto kassa a~n~nassa saman.assa vaa braahma.nassa vaa saddhaaya gamissaami? Atthi avitakko avicaaro samaadhi, atthi vitakkavicaaraana.m nirodho 'ti. Scott: I believe 'yaavadeva aaka"nkhaama' refers to 'without doubt' (since Kankhati is '...to be uncertain, unsettled, to doubt,' PTS PED) but please wait until any Paa.li experts confirm (should they wish to enter such a silly debate at all). I would think that one skilled in samatha-bhaavanaa would have to know (upasmpajja - resting on knowledge) in order to differentiate one level of jhaana from another. You seem to enjoy thinking you're doing it all yourself. Wow. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #106414 From: "philip" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:45 pm Subject: Overcoming wrong view....for now philofillet Hi all Hope you've all been well. Just checking in to say hi. I was going to write a long, long e-mail to explain an interesting crossroad I am at, but will hold off. But just wanted to kind of report that I am a person who at times faces the really dangerous, destructive kind of wrong view, the one that says "it's ok to do this bad thing, this whole Buddhism thing is just a phase you were going through, go ahead do it, nothing bad will come from it." When this kind of confrontation with the destructive form of wrong view comes up, one is really on one's own. Sila and otappa, the twin guardians, have been coming through nicely for me. There is a lot of reflection on the sutta that says "this is a low way, an inferior way, it is for inferior people, not for superior people, this is not for you" so I continue to think that the Buddha knew that people would need all kinds of drastic remedies to deal with destructive, harmful impulses, even if they sakkaya ditthi might be fostered, as it surely is when we are told "this is for inferior people, not for superior people, this is not for you." There is also a lot of clinging to the concept of seven kinds of Dhamma wealth, or spiritual fortune, I forget the term, and there is a lot of thinking it is mine, for now, clinging to it. But it helps to prevent extremely harmful deeds. (The seven are following the precepts, hiri, otappa, generosity, knowledge of the Dhamma, panna...oops, one is missing. Damn! And I thought it was *mine* for sure!) So holding the fort, still protecting any wealth I (so to speak) have accumulated over the last 8 years or so of Dhamma study. As for the wrong view that believes in self, well, there are moments of reflection on paramattha topics, now and then. I wouldn't say there are moments of awareness of present realities or anything like that, but mayube there are. Mostly there are just moments of thinking about paramattha dhammas, and of course that is just thinking about concepts, but at least it represents moments of getting a little closer to the truth! But sakkaya ditthi doesn't seem like a very horrible thing when you are dealing with impulses that are pushing to completely reject the Buddha's teaching and go back to living in the beastly way you did before... Catch you again in a few weeks/months... Phil #106415 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:42 pm Subject: "to whatever extent I wish" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi All! > Alex happened to quote something from recent group activity and I clicked over here and enjoyed this exchange. I hope you are all well! A quick comment below: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > Dear Alex > > > > > > >There were many lay non-returners in Buddha's time. Also Citta the householder WAS master of Jhanas. > > > > > >"Well, venerable sir, to whatever extent I wish, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhåna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. [299] Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhåna…. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the fading away as well of rapture … I enter and dwell in the third jhåna…. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain … I enter and dwell in the fourth jhåna." BB transl. SN 41.8 > > What do you think of the "to whatever extent I wish" that Citta keeps repeating? Do you think he is mis-speaking or does this semi-enlightened dude have willful volition in play? ;-) I would think that someone as advanced as he is would avoid making statements as if he can control the jhanas through will, rather than realize that they are merely and solely the product of arising conditions. What's up with that? > > Best, > Robert > > = = = = = = = = = > Hello RobertE, All, Buddha has also said that "to whatever extent I wish" I can do this & that. There are interesting suttas in SN with a similar note: "While dwelling at Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I wish, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhåna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. [211] Kassapa too, to whatever extent he wishes, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and dwells in the first jhåna…. [and same with other jhanas, aruppas and cessation of perception & feelings] “Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I wish, I wield the various kinds of spiritual power: having been one, I become many; having been many, I become one; I appear and vanish; I go unhindered through a wall, through a rampart, through a mountain as though through space; I dive in and out of the earth as though it were water; I walk on water without sinking as though it were earth; seated cross-legged, I travel in space like a bird; with my hand I touch and stroke the moon and sun so powerful and mighty; I exercise mastery with the body as far as the Brahma-world. Kassapa too, to whatever extent he wishes, wields the various kinds of spiritual power…. “Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I wish, with the divine ear element, which is purified and surpasses the human, I hear both kinds of sounds, the divine and human, those that are far as well as near. Kassapa too, to whatever extent he wishes, with the divine ear eleme nt, which is purified and surpasses the human, hears both kinds of sounds…. [213] “Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I wish, I understand the minds of other beings, of other persons, having encompassed them with my own mind. I understand a mind with lust as a mind with lust; a mind without lust as a mind without lust; a mind with hatred as a mind with hatred; a mind without hatred as a mind without hatred; a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion; a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion; a contracted mind as contracted and a distracted mind as distracted; an exalted mind as exalted and an unexalted mind as unexalted; a surpassable mind as surpassable and an unsurpassable mind as unsurpassable; a concentrated mind as concentrated and an unconcentrated mind as unconcentrated; a liberated mind as liberated and an unliberated mind as unliberated. Kassapa too, to whatever extent he wishes, understands the minds of other beings, of other persons, having encompassed them with his own mind…. “Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I wish, I recollect my manifold past abodes, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many aeons of world-contraction, many aeons of world-expansion, many aeons of world -contraction and expansion thus: ‘There I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my lifespan; passing away from there, I was reborn elsewhere, and there too I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pa in, such my lifespan; passing away from there, I was reborn here.’ Thus I recollect my manifold past abodes with their modes and details. Kassapa too, to whatever extent he wishes, recollects his manifold past abodes … with their modes and details. “Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I wish, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I see beings [214] passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understand how beings fare on according to their kamma thus: ‘These beings who engaged in misconduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong view, and undertook actions based on wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in a state of misery, in a bad destination, in the nether world, in hell; but these beings who engaged in good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right view, and undertook action based on right view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world.’ Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I see beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understand how beings fare on according to their kamma. Kassapa too, to whatever extent he wishes, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, sees beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings fare on according to their kamma…." -SN 16.9 Jhanas and Direct Knowledges BB trans. Interesting note on: "“Bhikkhus, ***to whatever extent I wish***, I wield the various kinds of spiritual power: having been one, I become many; having been many, I become one; I appear and vanish; I go unhindered through a wall, through a rampart, through a mountain as though through space; I dive in and out of the earth as though it were water; I walk on water without sinking as though it were earth; seated cross-legged, I travel in space like a bird; with my hand I touch and stroke the moon and sun so powerful and mighty; I exercise mastery with the body as far as the Brahma-world. Kassapa too, to whatever extent he wishes, wields the various kinds of spiritual power…." Kassapa-Samyutta SN16.9 BB Trans With metta, Alex #106416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Chew, Op 30-mrt-2010, om 13:44 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > Regarding this statement 'Anusayas can condition the arising of > akusala citta and then they arise with the akusala citta', is there > any explanation in Patthana? ------ N: And then they arise... is not correctly expressed by me. There is the anusaya of sensuous desire and this can condition the arising of sensuous desire that is pariyuttana kilesa, the medium defilement accompanying akusala citta. The anusaya itself does not arise but it conditions the arising of akusala citta. The Pa.t.thaana deals with pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural dependence condition. This condition deals with accumulated kusala and accumulated akusala conditioning their arising at present. In the Yamaka and Co we find more details on the anusayas, as you know. Nina. #106417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Overcoming wrong view....for now nilovg Dear Phil good to hear from you. Op 30-mrt-2010, om 14:45 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But just wanted to kind of report that I am a person who at times > faces the really dangerous, destructive kind of wrong view, the one > that says "it's ok to do this bad thing, this whole Buddhism thing > is just a phase you were going through, go ahead do it, nothing bad > will come from it." When this kind of confrontation with the > destructive form of wrong view comes up, one is really on one's own. ------ N: Recently I was studying one of your favorite suttas in Pali, quoting what I wrote before: Through the teachings we see more and more the value of kusala, and especially of understanding. We know that kusala can be accumulated so that it can arise again. We should not underestimate the power of accumulated conditions. Nina. #106418 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations and mind-reading (judging) truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > >How do you know how much accumulations you have or have not (or others have or have not)? > > KO:? One would know because when one read the text or listen to dhamma talk, if their accumulations are high, they understand it very fast and not like me has to keep reading and listening and still see the world like a "mad man".??? > Which power exactly is it to be able to see one's own accumulations? Can worldlings even have this power? Or is it just guessing & speculating? Other then the Buddha, who has the power to see (not speculate!) others faculties and accumulations? > KO:? We are not blaming accumulations, we must understand our own >strength.? Without knowing our own strength, some of the trainings >in the text would be counter productive.? The sutta formulae is very >clear, it is meant for recluse. Suttas also say that householders can be anagamis and Householders CAN master Jhanas. Householder can become an Arhat at the moment of death -SN 55.54(4) Ill . This would require a possion and mastery of Jhanas, as part of N8P. The Buddha did encourage Jhanas to householders (AN5.176): ""Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself." " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.176.than.html > When we learn dhamma, we should be truthful and not try to suit the >suttas text to our own understanding.?This is a common mistake >people take which I also at times will fall into.? We should be true >to ourselves and remain true to the?texts. Very good! With metta, Alex #106419 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Nori and Vince, Op 29-mrt-2010, om 23:21 heeft nori het volgende geschreven: > Nori: ...Anussaya refers only to the latent tendencies, and aasaya > refers to both kusala and akusala that are accumulated." > > Here lies a fundamental contradiction. > > If citta is only a pure observer, how can it retain anything? > > What exactly is being retained? -------- Vince: How citta can be an store of something?. How to say accumulation is a reality instead a concept? ---------- N: The subject is not easy and I understand that things are not clear. There is no store-consciousness as is believed by some people. Each citta that arises falls away completely. But it is succeeded by the following one, without there being a gap or interval. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, and that is the reason that kusala and akusala of the past can condition the arising of kusala and akusala later on, in the future. We should not think of citta that retains anything. How this operates exactly, in detail, well I think this is something we cannot completely grasp. It is beyond us. But one thing we notice: we are all born with different inclinations, and where do these come from? The last citta in life, the dying- consciousness is succeeded by the first citta of the next life, the rebirth-consciousness, and the rebirth-consciousness is conditioned by the preceding dying-consciousness by way of contiguity-condition. Thus, there is a link between the past life and the present life. The Buddha accumulated the perfections during countless lives so that he could become the Sammaa-sambuddha. This was a process going on from moment to moment, how else could this happen? These are just a few thoughts, Nina. #106420 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta chewsadhu Dear Nina, Thank you very much again. At the same time, I'll be waiting for your Anusaya Yamaka and the CO. F.Y.I, Sayadaw U Nandamala is coming to Penang on 2nd of May. He is going to teach us Citta Yamaka. Hope that we will have enough time to learn Anusaya Yamaka from Sayadaw as well. Then I can check the study together with your work. Thank you. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > Op 30-mrt-2010, om 13:44 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > > > Regarding this statement 'Anusayas can condition the arising of > > akusala citta and then they arise with the akusala citta', is there > > any explanation in Patthana? > ------ > N: And then they arise... is not correctly expressed by me. There is > the anusaya of sensuous desire and this can condition the arising of > sensuous desire that is pariyuttana kilesa, the medium defilement > accompanying akusala citta. > The anusaya itself does not arise but it conditions the arising of > akusala citta. > The Pa.t.thaana deals with pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural > dependence condition. This condition deals with accumulated kusala > and accumulated akusala conditioning their arising at present. In the > Yamaka and Co we find more details on the anusayas, as you know. > > Nina. > > > #106421 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations and mind-reading (judging) ashkenn2k Dear Alex > > >Which power exactly is it to be able to see one's own accumulations? > >Can worldlings even have this power? Or is it just guessing & speculating? > >Other then the Buddha, who has the power to see (not speculate!) others faculties and accumulations? KO:?? Everyone can have certain knowledge of their own accumulations of panna..???An example?seeing.? Are we seeing as seeing,??or are we seeing beings as beings??? From this we would know where we are.? >Suttas also say that householders can be anagamis >and >Householders CAN master Jhanas. >Householder can become an Arhat at the moment of death >-SN 55.54(4) Ill . KO:?There is no need for jhanas to attain enlightenment.? I have given you examples of it.?? There are four types of development of concentration.? I have been trying to find this sutta and got this in RobK website.? http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. ? "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. ? "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. ? "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. ? "These are the four developments of concentration. >The Buddha did encourage Jhanas to householders (AN5.176): > >""Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself." " >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an05/an05. 176.than. KO:? Was that spoken to ordinary householders or those with great accumulations.? It is not possible to do jhanas in the householders without strong accumulations because householders lives are full of dust.? To do jhanas, there must be seclusion from sense objects.? There must be restraint in sense objects which I would discuss later.? In is not that simple,?if it is that simple?all of us will have attain jhanas by doing meditations.? Why not because we are not restraint in virtue, not restraint in sense faculties etc.?Without restraints, our mind will be very?restless. ?We will discuss the meaning of seclusion also. Cheers Ken O #106422 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg ashkenn2k Dear pt pt: On re-reading them, I think concepts can condition other dhammas, but concepts are not conditioned or unconditioned because they don't arise and fall. Concepts are really weird... Concepts can condition other dhamma through object condition by the mind door process.?IMHO,?the real difference between concepts and reality is that concepts does not have characteristics, they do not borne their own characteristics? Fire element has the characteristic of heat or feeling feels.? Concepts cannot condition their own arisen is the meaning that concepts?are?resulted?from thinking, without thinking we cannot have concepts.? But without thinking, we could still feels, being angry when an object is experience by the citta. Cheers Ken O #106423 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and pt) - In a message dated 3/30/2010 12:49:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear pt pt: On re-reading them, I think concepts can condition other dhammas, but concepts are not conditioned or unconditioned because they don't arise and fall. Concepts are really weird... Concepts can condition other dhamma through object condition by the mind door process. IMHO, the real difference between concepts and reality is that concepts does not have characteristics, they do not borne their own characteristics Fire element has the characteristic of heat or feeling feels. Concepts cannot condition their own arisen is the meaning that concepts are resulted from thinking, without thinking we cannot have concepts. But without thinking, we could still feels, being angry when an object is experience by the citta. Cheers Ken O ================================== It seems to me that there is thinking but no concepts. We may *speak* of concepts, but they are only imagined. Thinking, OTOH, occurs, it is conditioned, and it has real effect. When we say that a concept conditions something, what is actually the case is that thinking does the conditioning. Likewise, thinking is conditioned. Concepts are not conditioned and they do not serve as conditions, for there just ain't no such things! ;-) When we say that an alleged something, a soul for example, is concept-only, what that actually means is that though we may think of "a soul", it is unreal. The thinking, however, does happen. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106425 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:54 pm Subject: concepts & realities + N8P (corrected) truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > > > > >Which power exactly is it to be able to see one's own accumulations? > > > >Can worldlings even have this power? Or is it just guessing & speculating? > > > >Other then the Buddha, who has the power to see (not speculate!) others faculties and accumulations? > > KO:?An example?seeing.? Are we seeing as >seeing,??or are we seeing >beings as beings??? From this we would >know where we are.? So are you saying that an Aryan can't distinguish between looking at a wall or an alive person? In both cases there is seeing! So are you saying that an Aryan can't distinguish between hearing a recording or an listening to an alive person talking? In both cases there is hearing & thinking (interpreting)! Well you may say that an aryan knows that the other person doesn't ultimately exist even though an aryan knows that he is talking to another person rather than a wall or a dummy for example. What prevents a person from lets say reading "Concepts and realities" and becoming an Aryan. Is it so hard to remember, lets say, 18 elements? Is stream entry is when one knows the theory? So what separates real and genuine insight from simply reading some truths? Or when one cannot see other beings? In this case, how does one distinguish between people, street addresses, cliff vs plains, etc? I hope that you understand what I've tried to say. One doesn't become someone who cannot distinguish between speaking to a dummy or an alive person. And neither does having theoretic knowledge is a sole answer. > KO:?There is no need for jhanas to attain enlightenment.? I have given you examples of it.?? There are four types of development of concentration.? I have been trying to find this sutta and got this in RobK website.? > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta > "These are the four developments of concentration. One kind of development doesn't reject the development of the other. 1) Noble 8Fold path is required for Awakening (DN16) 2) Samma-Samadhi is part of it (MN141) 3) Samma-Samadhi is defined as the Jhanas (mn141) 4) Jhana IS a path to awakening MN36 With metta, Alex #106426 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg ashkenn2k Dear Howard It seems to me that there is thinking but no concepts. We may *speak* >of concepts, but they are only imagined. Thinking, OTOH, occurs, it is >conditioned, and it has real effect. When we say that a concept conditions >something, what is actually the case is that thinking does the conditioning. >Likewise, thinking is conditioned. Concepts are not conditioned and they do >not serve as conditions, for there just ain't no such things! ;-) >When we say that an alleged something, a soul for example, is >concept-only, what that actually means is that though we may think of "a soul", it >is unreal. The thinking, however, does happen. KO:? Yes you are right that it is the nature of citta to thinks.??I meant the thinking here is about many mind door process for a concept.??Without?thinking (the many mind door procees),?anger and feeling?can still arise with a sense door or a bare mind door process for an object. ? Cheers Ken O #106427 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/30/2010 2:03:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard It seems to me that there is thinking but no concepts. We may *speak* >of concepts, but they are only imagined. Thinking, OTOH, occurs, it is >conditioned, and it has real effect. When we say that a concept conditions >something, what is actually the case is that thinking does the conditioning. >Likewise, thinking is conditioned. Concepts are not conditioned and they do >not serve as conditions, for there just ain't no such things! ;-) >When we say that an alleged something, a soul for example, is >concept-only, what that actually means is that though we may think of "a soul", it >is unreal. The thinking, however, does happen. KO: Yes you are right that it is the nature of citta to thinks. I meant the thinking here is about many mind door process for a concept. Without thinking (the many mind door procees), anger and feeling can still arise with a sense door or a bare mind door process for an object. ------------------------------------------------ I'm not *entirely* sure of the correctness of the last sentence of yours. It occurs to me that the anger etc may be preconditioned by very rapid, subliminal, and possibly wordless thinking that constitutes a cognitive and emotional concocting/proliferation (papa~nca). ---------------------------------------------- Cheers Ken O =========================== With metta, Howard From Contact to Reaction /"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye."/ (From the Honeyball Sutta) #106428 From: Vince Date: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:47 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: The subject is not easy and I understand that things are not > clear. There is no store-consciousness as is believed by some people. > Each citta that arises falls away completely. But it is succeeded by > the following one, without there being a gap or interval. Our life is > an unbroken series of cittas, and that is the reason that kusala and > akusala of the past can condition the arising of kusala and akusala > later on, in the future. We should not think of citta that retains > anything. I agree very much > How this operates exactly, in detail, well I think this is something > we cannot completely grasp. It is beyond us. probably you are right, I don't know. However, I understand that at least we can say the contact of citta with the object lacks of any error in itself, therefore what passes among succesive cittas is not something of citta but it must be a trend of delusion distorting the citta experience. It would mean that there is not accumulation of understanding (because citta works perfectly all the time). What we keep is a trend of ignorance, and then we can only accumulate a cleaning of our own wrong views. We know these wrong views arises because attachment to our own ideas and speculations which are added to the pure experience of the present moment. If attachment is the cause, then this cleaning only can exist when there is detachment of what causes attachment. And then it is a condition for the experience of citta contacting its object can become manifest as she really is. And then we say "understanding". So my point was about this same moment of "understanding", in where we are not acquiring nothing new. We are not accumulating "truths". On the contrary, what we make is to be detached of our delusion regarding the nature of the object and the experience, and then the real experience can be what it is. This was my sense in denying the accumulation. > But one thing we notice: we are all born with different inclinations, > and where do these come from? The last citta in life, the dying- > consciousness is succeeded by the first citta of the next life, the > rebirth-consciousness, and the rebirth-consciousness is conditioned > by the preceding dying-consciousness by way of contiguity-condition. > Thus, there is a link between the past life and the present life. > The Buddha accumulated the perfections during countless lives so that > he could become the Sammaa-sambuddha. This was a process going on > from moment to moment, how else could this happen? > These are just a few thoughts, > Nina. sure, there is the link. Even if we understand accumulation in this or that way, there is experience of what is good or bad, wrong or right. And also there is the experience to be attached to them, feeding them, and seeing the results. It is checkable for everybody, and denying such thing would be wrong. Your messages are always honest with Dhamma, that's a very helper quality not frequent these days :) best wishes, Vince. #106429 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:42 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi KenH, > > I found that post by Sarah about concepts and conditions if you're interested: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/104199 > > and there's also > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/102068 > > On re-reading them, I think concepts can condition other dhammas, but concepts are not conditioned or unconditioned because they don't arise and fall. Concepts are really weird... ---------- Hi pt, I see you already have discussions in progress with Sukin, Ken O and Howard on this topic, so I won't muddy the waters. I'll just reiterate that it is never the actual *concept* that conditions anything. Only dhammas can do that. When a concept is said to act a object condition, for example, it is the nama's *act of taking of that concept as object* that does the conditioning. When a concept acts as natural decisive support, it is the past dhammas that created that concept that do the actual conditioning. Ken H #106430 From: "nori" Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta norakat147 Hi Nina, N: "How this operates exactly, in detail, well I think this is something we cannot completely grasp. It is beyond us." Thank you again for the explanations and honest answers... I think for understanding at this level of reality/realization; it would have to be discerned/experienced for oneself. N:"But one thing we notice: we are all born with different inclinations, and where do these come from?" I also have reflected on this... --- It makes me wonder; if information is not stored, how could the Buddha have recalled the details of his own, and other 'people's' past lives? (e.g. Such and such was my method of sustenance, such and such were my parents, such and such were the foods that I ate, etc.) With Metta, Nori #106431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Chew and Han, Op 30-mrt-2010, om 17:16 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > F.Y.I, Sayadaw U Nandamala is coming to Penang on 2nd of May. He is > going to teach us Citta Yamaka. > > Hope that we will have enough time to learn Anusaya Yamaka from > Sayadaw as well. ------ N: That will be very interesting, looking forward. I always find it interesting when Han quotes Burmese books, Nina. #106432 From: "philip" Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:39 am Subject: Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for quoting this inspirational sutta. I come across it quite often in my notebooks, and invariably I can hear Lodwijk reading it as he does at the beginning of his recording of Perfections! There is reason for optimism. Every day we understand better the disadvanates of akusala and the advantages of kusala. I have had reason to feel very encouraged by the way that accumulated understanding comes through when it is need to condition abstention from harmful deeds! And after all, being born human with a sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching indicates that we have had very good kamma, and we have support from that kamma! Nice touching bases with you like this, once a month or so. Metta Phil > N: Recently I was studying one of your favorite suttas in Pali, > quoting what I wrote before: > done, If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to > do so. ...Monks, do cultivate the good. It can be done, If it were > impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. ... "> > Through the teachings we see more and more the value of kusala, and > especially of understanding. We know that kusala can be accumulated > so that it can arise again. We should not underestimate the power of > accumulated conditions. > > #106433 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg nilovg Hi Howard, pt, Ken O. Ken H, Op 30-mrt-2010, om 19:15 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > When we say that a concept conditions > something, what is actually the case is that thinking does the > conditioning. > Likewise, thinking is conditioned. Concepts are not conditioned and > they do > not serve as conditions, for there just ain't no such things! ;-) > When we say that an alleged something, a soul for example, is > concept-only, what that actually means is that though we may think > of "a soul", it > is unreal. The thinking, however, does happen. --------- N: I think Howard expressed this very well. We discussed this matter in Thailand last time. In the Pa.t.thaana the object is mentioned as object-condiiton and a concept is included in object-condition. A concept merely conditions citta by being its object. As to climate etc. mentioned under natural decisive support- condition, this is a concept that stands for the reality of the heat- element. The same for the other factors such as good friendship. Kh Sujin remarked: a concept cannot be accumulated. Nina. #106434 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Nori, Op 31-mrt-2010, om 8:12 heeft nori het volgende geschreven: > It makes me wonder; if information is not stored, how could the > Buddha have recalled the details of his own, and other 'people's' > past lives? (e.g. Such and such was my method of sustenance, such > and such were my parents, such and such were the foods that I ate, > etc.) ------ N: That is by sa~n~naa, the cetasika remembrance. it is not a question of storage. Sa~n~naa marks or remembers the object experienced by citta. Through the development of jhaana special powers can be acquired, such as remembrance of past lives. Nina. #106435 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now nilovg Dear Philip (and Connie), I like your mail, appreciating. I tell Lodewijk. Recently he said: why have I read all these perfections, nobody will listen to them. I said: ask Connie, she has it on her web. Nina. Op 31-mrt-2010, om 4:39 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for quoting this inspirational sutta. I come across it quite > often in my notebooks, and invariably I can hear Lodwijk reading it > as he does at the beginning of his recording of Perfections! > > There is reason for optimism. Every day we understand better the > disadvanates of akusala and the advantages of kusala. I have had > reason to feel very encouraged by the way that accumulated > understanding comes through when it is need to condition abstention > from harmful deeds! And after all, being born human with a > sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching indicates that we have had > very good kamma, and we have support from that kamma! > > Nice touching bases with you like this, once a month or so. #106436 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:09 am Subject: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? christine_fo... Hello all, A friend has asked how Imagination is viewed in the Abhidhamma. I thought Imagination might be "Just Thinking" "Proliferation of thoughts" - Papanca. Would appreciate any input with quotes. with metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #106437 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg ashkenn2k Dear Howard . >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- >I'm not *entirely* sure of the correctness of the last sentence of >yours. It occurs to me that the anger etc may be preconditioned by very rapid, >subliminal, and possibly wordless thinking that constitutes a cognitive >and emotional concocting/prolifer ation (papa~nca). >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- KO:? anger or lobha can arise in the bare mind door process or sense door process due to sanna recognised this object and associated it with cravings or anger,? It is usually known as perversion of perception.?? Yes it is wordless, at the direct experience there is no word to describe the characteristic, it is just the experiencing of the object.? When we think we experience the object or label it, it is not the direct experience.? Cheers Ken O #106438 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin >S: I am not saying that these rules do not exist, Ken. What I am saying is that since panna is involved here, the rules are not to be understood as it is generally done. In other words, panna leads and not the rules. Also if you look at it from the standpoint of faith, this conditions a perspective about these rules, different from when no faith is involved. Without both of these however, the rules followed become silabattaparamasa. > KO: I just want to stress the point that it is incorrect to say there is no rules. Rules can be strong paccya as I said before, it can be a very arising of kusala actions with or without panna. If you say about understanding of rules, it is the function of panna to understand. I also stressing we should not take silabattaparamasa out of context. Only when wrong view arise with rules, then it is silabattaparamasa, this is the correct rendering. >S: I said: “rules are more or less ‘reminders’ about what kusala is and what is not and hence the need to develop understanding of present moment realities.” Does this not sound like what you are saying? > KO: Rules can be kusala be it understanding arise or not. >Suk: You are referring to faith that must exist prior to any arisen panna and not the one that necessarily arises with it. So you are saying that there is faith in the Triple gems without any level of panna and that panna cannot arise without this faith first coming to be? And I think likewise, that you are also making a case for the other mental factors such as sati and sila, that these must be there *before* panna? KO: It is not correct to say that panna must arise to condition panna that is what I am trying to say. There could be other factors that can condition panna. Not necessary panna must arise first. They could condition panna later or panna can arise earlier. It does not matter. What matters it that panna must be develop in order for eradication of akusala. > >S: Giving priority to understanding the present moment does not mean nothing else matters. No doubt what is in the Vinaya and the Suttas and the development of Samatha bhavana all these are best seen in light of understanding present moment realities, this however does not mean for example, that kusala without panna is not valuable. But why do you conclude that if one is focused on the need to develop right understanding of present moment realities, this implies rejection of the Suttas and Vinaya? KO: Yes but it does seen to be the way here. There are stressing that there is no action, no rules, no training development (dont use method too many argument), that is IMHO the rejection of suttas, Vinaya and the Abhidhammas. Hmm you better dont use words like giving priority because everything is conditioned :-) where is there priority. I thought there is no choice, how come now there is priority :-). So that is what you get when you try to explain conventional wordings over understanding. It is just inclinations and accumlations. >S: True, and for some faith is strong as compared to wisdom. However, faith without wisdom means nothing in terms of the Path being developed, does it not? KO: you are right. :-) >S: What I am saying is that listening and reading can be conventional actions undertaken with right or wrong view. Meditation as is spoken of here is necessarily motivated by wrong view and never right view. KO: Thats interesting. I thought that is not the position here, all conventions action are view with miccha ditthi. All along I have been saying that conventional actions can be with right or wrong view. >Suk: It does not have to imply this Ken. When you talk about sati and faith and wisdom, aren’t you talking about cetasikas? And when you talk about hearing and seeing, aren’t theses cittas? > KO: Convention actions are not at cetasikas and citta level, I mean at the very direct experience. > >S: No one is denying that the conventional action of reading and listening is required for there to be hearing of the Dhamma for example. The problem seems to be that you go on to make a case *for* conventional actions, one which is beyond necessity. KO: sorry Sujin, I read too many DSG taking a strong stand against convention actions. I just want to correct this. >Suk: I think all the resistance comes from unwillingness on the part of so called ‘meditators’ to accept that what they do is wrong practice. If the matter was about what constitutes and not conventional activities in general, I don’t think there would be any argument at all. >S: No I am not “mixing act of cetana with self”, but simply pointing to the existence of miccha ditthi in the idea of meditation which then conditions the associated conventional activity. You it seems, in bringing up the matter of conventional activity and of cetana, are defending the meditator’s decision to practice samatha. Qualifying this with being also the result of kusala chanda and saddha appears to me to be due to not seeing that miccha ditthi must necessarily be involved in any idea by the Buddhist, to practice samatha as he does. >Of course you do warn these people about the need for panna in order that the practice be right. I however, don’t think that even this is the correct approach. For me when panna arises, it arises to *understand* and not to follow any prescribed practice or method. And so when panna does not arise, whatever is written in the Texts are just descriptions of different realities and conditions. It is with the arising of miccha ditthi, that these descriptions are taken for methods to follow. KO: there is nothing wrong about meditation and dont say the idea of meditations are miccha ditthi. That is incorrect, ancient masters do it. It is just that a lot of people now practise meditation without the correct understanding. I agreed with AS that we should understand what is meditation. There is so much misunderstanding and it is so common that people stop looking at the text carefully. We should not be against meditation, we should explain what is meditation so that people know for themselves whether they are doing the correct thing. There is no need for us to barrage against meditation because meditators will become defensive. Explain it for the benefit of them. >Suk: OK, now you come to the point. >Cetana arises with all cittas performing the function of coordinating and in the case of javana, the additional function of willing. This latter can manifest as action through body, speech or mind, and if kusala, lead to good results and if akusala, to bad results. KO: That is explanation of cetana. So do cetana will in case of conventional listening or not? >S: I am very, very behind in my reading and so I haven’t seen your question to anyone else and therefore read their response. But haven’t I given my answer? Or is it that mine didn’t satisfy you? KO: nope I have yet seen your reply or maybe I have too much thinking. could you kindly explain again. thanks Cheers Ken O #106439 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin I like to add some more points to these two paragraphs >S: No I am not “mixing act of cetana with self”, but simply pointing to the existence of miccha ditthi in the idea of meditation which then conditions the associated conventional activity. You it seems, in bringing up the matter of conventional activity and of cetana, are defending the meditator’s decision to practice samatha. Qualifying this with being also the result of kusala chanda and saddha appears to me to be due to not seeing that miccha ditthi must necessarily be involved in any idea by the Buddhist, to practice samatha as he does. >Of course you do warn these people about the need for panna in order that the practice be right. I however, don’t think that even this is the correct approach. For me when panna arises, it arises to *understand* and not to follow any prescribed practice or method. And so when panna does not arise, whatever is written in the Texts are just descriptions of different realities and conditions. It is with the arising of miccha ditthi, that these descriptions are taken for methods to follow. KO: It is also wrong to say there is no prescribe pratice or method. Visuds are full of them. There are disciples who practise reciting of 32 parts and become sotapanna. Nothing wrong with prescribe practise, it can be again a strong paccaya just like sila. It is the comprehension of these methods thiat is important. It is the comprehension that the practise of walk forth and back is just cittas, body intimations and rupas. There are disciples who practise this become Arahants. Dont mix methods with self, just like mixing conventions with miccha ditthi. There is nothing wrong with rules or methods, they are just methods or rules, it is only with arisen with aksuala especially miccha ditthi, that is the wrongness. With metta Ken O #106440 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts & realities + N8P ashkenn2k Dear Alex >So are you saying that an Aryan can't distinguish between looking at a wall or an alive person? In both cases there is seeing! > >So are you saying that an Aryan can't distinguish between hearing a recording or an listening to an alive person talking? In both cases there is hearing & thinking (interpreting) ! > >Well you may say that an aryan knows that the other person doesn't ultimately exist even though an aryan knows that he is talking to another person rather than a wall or a dummy for example. What prevents a person from lets say reading "Concepts and realities" and becoming an Aryan. Is it so hard to remember lets say 18 elements, no? > >Is stream entry is when one knows the theory? Or when one cannot see other beings? In this case, how does one distinguish between people, street addresses, cliff vs plains, etc? > KO:? There is nothing wrong with concepts, it is the conceiving of concepts that is the wrongness? What we conceive in seeing is different from what is conceive in seeing by Arahants.? From there we know how much understanding we have.? pg 50, The Discourse on the Roots of Existence - Commentary <> ** the stated - is about the perversion of perceptions.? In other parts of this comy pg 40 << Thus he says: "He perceives through perversion of perception."? This is the meaning:? He perceives it as beautiful, etc. through a perverted perception springing from unwise reflection.? By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit, and views is seen>> <> >One kind of development doesn't reject the development of the other. KO:? No I am not rejecting it, I am saying concentration is not just about jhanas.? There are other development of concentration. > >1) Noble 8Fold path is required for Awakening (DN16) >2) Samma-Samadhi is part of it (MN141) >3) Samma-Samadhi is defined as the Jhanas (mn141) >4) Jhana IS a path to awakening MN36 KO:? Jhana is the path of awakening for those who practise jhanas.? It does not?mean everyone?must do jhanas. Cheers Ken O #106441 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:25 pm Subject: My thoughts on Dhamma (video) farrellkevin80 A video about what I wanted to say: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4384770/my_view_of_anatta_dhammas/ The Lost Trailers: http://www.vevo.com/watch/the-lost-trailers/country-folks/USBVA0900012 #106442 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and craving. ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >While I find the concept of free-will to be problematic, and some of the things that I've experienced backed it up, still the quote you gave doesn't address volition & choice completely. > KO:? yes it is problematic.? Difficult to understand as choice and volitions are also conditioned to arise.? No sankhara dhamma is free will because all sankhara dhamma is conditioned to arise in the samasara.? Nobody can control cittas or no free will in controlling cittas?does not mean there cannot be chanda that interest or?purpose or cetana to will or act.? There are different dhamma, each?manifest their distinct function. ? When we think we like an pleasant object and buy?it, the action is conditioned by lobha, your choice is the lobha with chandha, your action is the action of buying.? But when mindfulness arise, it conditioned the restraint and that stop your actions to buy the object as you perceived impermanence of pleasant object.??? The cetana?is the action that?stop buying, the choice is chanda. ? Panna has no interest, it is for the understanding of dhamma and penetrating its characteristics, when we are interested in learning?dhamma, it is the chanda arise with panna. Like what you are doing, interest in dhamma and your action to read emails discussion is cetana.? You are already make the choice of learning dhamma condition by chanda and cetana?with panna.? ? Likewise it works both way, chanda and cetana?can arise with aksuala and condition wrong development.? >The above paragraph says that one cannot control the AGING/ANICCA of what is arisen! KO:? doesn't that show powerless.? If one can change aging, one will have exercise power over dhamma. One can remain young for eternity.? Can we, so there is no free will in controling dhamma.? But we could change the way in our preception of dhamma and the conceiving of dhamma. >1) ""this being arisen, let it not reach presence," > >Also the above paragraph says that >2) "having reached presence, let it not grow old," > >AND > >3)"having grown old, let it not break up" > >? >> That is why when we see the noble truth of suffering, it shows the >powerless over dhammas, we cannot stop?ageing, birth and illness?etc >by mere wishing. > >Correct. But it doesn't say that a good disciple cannot (perhaps slowly) change from akusala to kusala behaviour (through wisdom of course). KO:? You are right through wisdom we could change our behaviour.?We cannot?stop the flow of dhamma, citta?arise and condition the next without stopping.? That does mean we cannot change the way we understand?dhamma by listening and reading to develop more understanding of the dhamma.? The change is the choice condition by citta and cetasikas,?and not you bc there is no you or me in dhamma.? Even reading dhamma or listening dhamma is a choice and action.? ? ? ? Cheers Ken O #106443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My thoughts on Dhamma (video) nilovg Dear Kevin, Like Ken H, I am so hesitant to go to links. Lack of time also. Could you please say what you wanted to say :-)) I am really interested and appreciative. Nina. Op 31-mrt-2010, om 19:25 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > A video about what I wanted to say: #106444 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My thoughts on Dhamma (video) farrellkevin80 Hi Nina. The video was basically just about my thoughts that many people do not focus on anatta when they study the Buddhas teachings, and that there are many wrong views about concerning the Buddhas teachings. I won't transcribe it because it is six minutes worth of video, but don't worry I didn't say much. I just felt the need to express myself. That is all. ; ) The link is perfectly safe if you wish to watch it. I uploaded the video myself to a popular and reliable website. Kevin ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 3:14:35 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] My thoughts on Dhamma (video) Dear Kevin, Like Ken H, I am so hesitant to go to links. Lack of time also. Could you please say what you wanted to say :-)) I am really interested and appreciative. Nina. Op 31-mrt-2010, om 19:25 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > A video about what I wanted to say: #106445 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts & realities + N8P truth_aerator Dear KenO, Rob2K, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex >... Thank you for your above post. Of course I don't hold Self theories and those other views about it. So no problem there. But is insight just about "learning"? IMHO it is a liberative experience where a certain amount (or all) of craving (and tendency to it) ceases . >KO:? No I am not rejecting it, I am saying concentration is not just >about jhanas.? There are other development of concentration. > > > > >1) Noble 8Fold path is required for Awakening (DN16) > >2) Samma-Samadhi is part of it (MN141) > >3) Samma-Samadhi is defined as the Jhanas (mn141) > >4) Jhana IS a path to awakening MN36 Those 4 points above do say that Jhana must be fulfilled for N8P. > KO:? Jhana is the path of awakening for those who practise jhanas.? >It does not?mean everyone?must do jhanas. See Yuganaddha Sutta. There are only 4 ways for Arhatship and all of them include either samatha or samadhi. -insight preceded by tranquillity -tranquillity preceded by insight -tranquillity in tandem with insight -one's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html With metta, Alex #106446 From: "connie" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 12:42 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (320, 20) nichiconn dear friends, continuing from #105941 Fives (319, 19) (cy: #106081): CSCD 320. <ti. Yo so, aavuso, bhikkhu a~n~natara.m devanikaaya.m pa.nidhaaya brahmacariya.m carati - ti, tassa citta.m na namati aatappaaya anuyogaaya saataccaaya padhaanaaya. Yassa citta.m na namati aatappaaya anuyogaaya saataccaaya padhaanaaya. Aya.m pa~ncamo cetaso vinibandho. Walshe DN 33.2.1(20) 'Five mental bondages (cetaso vinibandhaa) *1095 Here, a monk has not got rid of the passion, desire, love, thirst (pipaasa)*1096 fever, craving (ta.nhaa) (a) for sense-desires (kaame): thus his mind is not inclined towards ardour, devotion, persistence and effort; (b) for the boddy (kaaye), ...(c) for physical objects (ruupe), ...or (d) having eaten as much as his belly will hold, he abandons himself to the pleasure of lying down, of contact, of sloth; or (e) [iii 239] he practises the holy life for the sake of becoming a member of some body of devas (deva-nikaaya), thinking: "By means of these rites or this discipline, this austerity or this holy life I shall become one of the devas, great or small." Thus his mind is not inclined towards ardour, devotion, persistence and effort. Olds [ 5.20 ] Five mental rebindings:[ 5.20 ] Here, friends, a beggar has, with regard to the carnal pleasures, not foregone lust, not foregone wanting, not foregone affection, not foregone thirst, not foregone the hysteria, not foregone the hunger. This not having foregone lust, not having foregone wanting, not having foregone affection, not having foregone thirst, not having foregone the hysteria, not having foregone the hunger with regard to carnal pleasures being the case, friends, a beggar's heart is disinclined towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-ivness, making effort. This disinclination of the heart towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-iveness, and making effort is the first mental rebinding. And additionally, friends, a beggar has, with regard to body not foregone lust, not foregone wanting, not foregone affection, not foregone thirst, not foregone the hysteria, not foregone the hunger. This not having foregone lust, not having foregone wanting, not having foregone affection, not having foregone thirst, not having foregone the hysteria, not having foregone the hunger with regard to body being the case, friends, a beggar's heart is disinclined towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-ivness, making effort. This disinclination of the heart towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-iveness, and making effort is the second mental rebinding. And additionally, friends, a beggar has, with regard to materiality not foregone lust, not foregone wanting, not foregone affection, not foregone thirst, not foregone the hysteria, not foregone the hunger. This not having foregone lust, not having foregone wanting, not having foregone affection, not having foregone thirst, not having foregone the hysteria, not having foregone the hunger with regard to materiality being the case, friends, a beggar's heart is disinclined towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-ivness, making effort. This disinclination of the heart towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-iveness, and making effort is the third mental rebinding. And, additionally friends, a beggar, having filled his belly with as much food as he likes applies himself to habit of enjoying the the pleasure of the bed, the pleasure of touch, the pleasure of torpor. This filling his belly with as much food as he likes and applying himself to the habit of enjoying the pleasure of the bed, the pleasure of touch, the pleasure of torpor being the case, friends, a beggar's heart is disinclined towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-ivness, making effort. This disinclination of the heart towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-iveness, and making effort is the fourth mental rebinding. And, additionally friends, a beggar walks this Brahma-Faring intent on some group of gods thinking: "In this way, by this practice and by this ethical conduct and by these self-sacrifices, by this Brahma-Faring I will become a god or one in the company of these gods." This waling this Brahma-Faring intent on some group of gods thinking: "in this way, by this practice and by this ethical conduct and by these self-sacrifices, by this Brahma-Faring I will become a god or one in the company of these gods," being the case, friends, a beggar's heart is disinclined towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-iveness, making effort. This disinclination of the heart towards struggle, devotion, stick-to-it-iveness, and making effort is the fifth mental rebinding. RDs [ 239 ][ 5.20 ] Five bondages of the mind. Herein, brethren, when a brother has not got rid of the passion for sense-desires, of desire, fondness, thirst, fever, craving for them, he being thus, his mind does not incline towards ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion. In the same way, when a brother has not got rid of the passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, craving for his own person,5.20 or again for external objects, he being thus, his mind does not incline towards ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion. Fourthly, if a brother have eaten as much as his stomach can hold,5.20.1 and then abides given over to the ease of repose, of turning from this side to that,5.20.2 of sloth . . . and, fifthly, if a brother have adopted the religious life with the aspiration of belonging to some one or other of the deva-groups, thinking: -- 'By these rules or by these rites or by these austerities or by this religious life I shall become a greater, or a lesser deva;5.20.3 he being thus, his mind does not incline towards ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion. *walshe: 1095 See also MN 12. 1096 This, though here used metaphorically, is the word for 'thirst' in the literal sense. Here it means something less strong than ta.nhaa. **olds: [ 5.20 ] Pa~nca cetaso vinibandhaa: (snip) Vinibandha [vi+nibandha] bondage S II.17; III.135, 186; A I.66 (+vinivesa). -- The five cetaso vinibandhaa (bondages of the mind) are: (mo: as here); thus at D III.238; M I.103; A III.249; IV.461, 463 sq.; V.17; Vbh 377. Nibandha [Sk. nibandha, ni+bandha] binding, bond; attachment, continuance, continuity S II.17 (perseverance). Bandha (adj.) [cp. Vedic bandha, fr. bandh] 1. bond, fetter. -- 2. one who binds or ties together, in assa- horsekeeper, groom J II.98; V.441, 449. -- 3. a sort of binding: ma.n.dala- with a circular b. (parasol) Vin IV.338, salaaka- with a notched b. ibid. -- 4. a halter, tether. To: band-aid, rubber band, bandana, a band of thieves, etc. so this word is really Re-Down-Bound. Not just the bond that holds you down, but the bond you re-apply which binds you to the next thing. Vigata: gone away, disappeared, ceased; having lost or foregone (for-gone=vi-gata), deprived of, being without; often to be trsld simply as prep. "without." It nearly always occurs in compn, where it precedes the noun. By itself rare. Pemalove, affection. --(a)vigata-pema with(out) love or affection. Pari.laahaburning, fever; fig. fever of passion, consumption, distress, pain. ***rd: 5.20Kaaye. Attano kaaye, is the comment. Kaayo means the whole personal aggregate, not the physical factor only; all that is ajjhatta.m, in distinction to the next bondage, where ruupe is explained as bahiddhaa; 'external' to self. 5.20.1Cf. Psalms of the Brethren, ver, 935, n. 1; J.P.T.S., 1886, 150. 5.20.2The Comy. reads passa not phassa, and explains as above. Cf. Psalms of the Brethren, ibid. 5.20.3B. explains as mahesakkho, appesakkho vaa. ...to be continued, Scott, Nina, connie #106447 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 2:00 am Subject: Re: Study and Practice for PT. was Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 201 ptaus1 Hi Sukin, Thanks for your response. > Suk: I won't start from the very beginning, but assuming we both agree > on some of the basics, such as the difference between concept and > reality, the division of the latter into Rupa, Citta, Cetasikas and > Nibbana. That the first three are conditioned and is what is really > there from moment to moment, I put forward these ideas: > > 1. Right understanding conditions an interest in the Dhamma. > 2. This interest manifests at some point as hearing, reading and > discussing the Dhamma. > 3. Right understanding at the intellectual level leads to right > practice and wrong understanding to wrong practice. > > Would you like to comment on these? On a moment to moment basis, it all sounds good. Though I have to admit I am now generally confused about the mechanics of concepts, how they are created, recalled and thought about, and how do they then influence dhammas, so perhaps you can say a bit more about your point 3 and how you understand it in that light. Best wishes pt #106448 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and craving. mikenz66 Hi Ken, I'm appreciating your careful exposition. However, I'm worried whether I understand this post: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >Alex: Correct. But it doesn't say that a good disciple cannot (perhaps slowly) change from akusala to kusala behaviour (through wisdom of course). > > KO:? You are right through wisdom we could change our behaviour.?We cannot?stop the flow of dhamma, citta?arise and condition the next without stopping.? That does mean we cannot change the way we understand?dhamma by listening and reading to develop more understanding of the dhamma.? The change is the choice condition by citta and cetasikas,?and not you bc there is no you or me in dhamma.? Even reading dhamma or listening dhamma is a choice and action.? Mike: Did you miss out a "NOT" in your second sentence above? I.e. it should read as follows: "... That does NOT mean we cannot change the way we understand dhamma by listening and reading to develop more understanding of the dhamma. ... " Mike #106449 From: "nori" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 2:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta norakat147 Dear Nina, N: "That is by sa~n~naa, the cetasika remembrance... Sa~n~naa marks or remembers the object experienced by citta. Through the development of jhaana special powers can be acquired, such as remembrance of past lives." Would you happen to know how sa~n~naa is 'retained'/'maintained' and passed on from life to life, citta to citta / cetasika to cetasika? With Metta, Nori #106450 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts & realities + N8P ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >See Yuganaddha Sutta. There are only 4 ways for Arhatship and all of them include either samatha or samadhi. > >-insight preceded by tranquillity >-tranquillity preceded by insight >-tranquillity in tandem with insight >-one's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. KO:? By the above suttae, there could be tranquillity after insight or tranquillity before insight, so it shows there is no need for jhanas to be enlighted.? Tranquility is calm and calm means equanimity. It can be jhanas or not jhanas as equanimity is a cetasika in the kusala cittas with or without panna. Cheers Ken #106451 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 3:04 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg ptaus1 Hi KenH, Thanks for your reply. > > pt: Perhaps you can give your rendering of that commentarial passage? I attached it below. Thanks. > KH: It looks like hard work to me. What's your rendering of it? :-) > > Notice, BTW, that it talks about the same truth set out in two different renderings. It doesn't talk about two different truths. When the texts talk about two different truths, one of them is conventional, and not related to the Dhamma. > > Whichever way this passage is interpreted, I am pretty sure it doesn't suggest one audience cannot be taught in both ways. Take the very first sutta, for example, it gives a list of conventional things that are dukkha, and then says, "In short, the five khandhas are dukkha." So two types of teaching are given to the one audience. pt: I agree. My understanding of that passage is that the explanation/teaching Dhamma will depend on the listener and his capacities in every particular case. So, generally speaking, conventional explanation cannot be said to be better than the ultimate, and the opposite is also true. Best wishes pt #106452 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and craving. ashkenn2k Dear Mike Thanks for highlighting and I usually quite careless. You are right, There is a NOT in <>. Pse allow me to express some more views on this In the email I like to point out that there is no self in action, if there is a view that self acts or do, it is miccha ditthi. Also there is no such thing as no action, because there cetana, viriya and chanda. IMHO the correct perspective is there is an action, it is condition to arise by citta and cetasikas. There is no one or self conditioning this action because dhamma is not self. When there is a view of an action is I act or I do or self must act that is the proliferation of miccha ditthi. DSG is not wrong to say our actions are condition. Their perspectie of conditions is to me too extreme slanting towards chance. It slowly gives me an impression that all is condition and there is nothing we could do about it. That is to me a wrong view also. pg 50, The Discourse on the Roots of Existence - Commentary <>. There is energry, there is power, there is strength but it is not self that energise or strengthen it is dhamma that energies, the characteristics of viriya. So DSG should change from No Action to No One/Self that Acts, Or it is cetana that acts. Cheers Ken O > > > > >Hi Ken, > >I'm appreciating your careful exposition. However, I'm worried whether I understand this post: >--- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, Ken O wrote: >> >Alex: Correct. But it doesn't say that a good disciple cannot (perhaps slowly) change from akusala to kusala behaviour (through wisdom of course). >> >> KO: You are right through wisdom we could change our behaviour. We cannot stop the flow of dhamma, citta arise and condition the next without stopping. That does mean we cannot change the way we understand dhamma by listening and reading to develop more understanding of the dhamma. The change is the choice condition by citta and cetasikas, and not you bc there is no you or me in dhamma. Even reading dhamma or listening dhamma is a choice and action. > >Mike: Did you miss out a "NOT" in your second sentence above? I.e. it should read as follows: >"... That does NOT mean we cannot change the way we understand dhamma by listening and reading to develop more understanding of the dhamma. ... " > >Mike > > > #106453 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and craving. kenhowardau Hi Ken O and Mike, -------------- <. . .> KO: > DSG is not wrong to say our actions are condition. Their perspectie of conditions is to me too extreme slanting towards chance. --------------- KH: I am so glad we have got to the gist of the problem! ---------------------- KO: > It slowly gives me an impression that all is condition and there is nothing we could do about it. ---------------------- KH: The correct response to Ken O is to ask, "Who, or what, is the "we" that can do nothing about it?" On previous occasions when I have asked Ken this he has avoided a straight answer - saying the usual things about "I know there is no self." But the question should be asked again and again until Ken answers "Why would it matter if "we" could do nothing about conditions? You say there is no self, but you are obviously worried about something." --------------------------------- KO: > That is to me a wrong view also. pg 50, The Discourse on the Roots of Existence - Commentary <>. ---------------------------------- Good quote; this is exactly the point. Who are these living beings or souls that are without power? There are none, of course, and that is why the given view is a wrong one. It presupposes the existence of beings or souls. Therefore, it makes anatta look like fatalism. ----------------------------- KO: > There is energry, there is power, there is strength but it is not self that energise or strengthen it is dhamma that energies, the characteristics of viriya. So DSG should change from No Action to No One/Self that Acts, Or it is cetana that acts. ------------------------------- KH: No, DSG should continue to argue that there are only dhammas. Cetana is a dhamma, and it acts in a way that dhammas act - in a single fleeting moment. Therefore, cetana doesn't (for example) go to the corner store to buy a bottle of milk. That sort of action is pannatti (concept, thought, story). When we understand cetana as being purely a conditioned dhamma we are not bothered about how it acts, but when we think of a poor man walking to the shop, acting like some sort of robot, then we have wrong view. Ken H #106454 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 4:56 am Subject: Concepts ptaus1 Hi KenH, KenO, Nina, Howard, Sarah, > KH: I'll just reiterate that it is never the actual *concept* that conditions anything. Only dhammas can do that. When a concept is said to act a object condition, for example, it is the nama's *act of taking of that concept as object* that does the conditioning. When a concept acts as natural decisive support, it is the past dhammas that created that concept that do the actual conditioning. pt: Thank you all for contributions to this topic. I'm a bit confused now on the fundamentals of concepts and how they are said to work in abhidhamma. Some questions in that regard: 1. what exactly is the object of citta when it's said that concept is the object of citta? I mean, if it's said that concepts don't really exist, then what is the actual object of citta at that time? 2. How is it that dhammas create concepts, as KenH describes above? I mean, what happens there? I know it's said that sanna marks the concept, but what does this really mean? I mean, I don't understand what does "mark" mean. 3. It's often said that concepts are not real, but that thinking is - dhammas that take concepts as objects. How exactly recollecting of ideas and their meanings happens? I mean, again, I know that sanna is said to recollect these concepts, but what does that actually mean? What happens there? Could it be something like present sanna recollecting some previous sanna in fact? So kind of like a snapshot of dhammas that were present when that particular concept was created or "marked"? Thanks. Best wishes pt #106455 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and craving. mikenz66 Hi Ken^2, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ---------------------- > KO: > It slowly gives me an impression that all is condition and there is nothing we could do about it. > ---------------------- > > KH: The correct response to Ken O is to ask, "Who, or what, is the "we" that can do nothing about it?" > > KH: On previous occasions when I have asked Ken this he has avoided a straight answer - saying the usual things about "I know there is no self." But the question should be asked again and again until Ken answers "Why would it matter if "we" could do nothing about conditions? You say there is no self, but you are obviously worried about something. Mike: Yes, this is a good question to ponder. But is there an implication that "you" do not have "worry" arise? Mike: I've noticed that these discussions may be anatta, but they do have a a certain amount of "continuity": In Message #15177, Sun Aug 25, 2002, KenO wrote: > KO: I don't understand why free will must be associated > with a self. I think this is a concept developed by > the West (no offence please). We always forget that > there is a cetana that acts who itself is anatta. > Isn't this a wonderful paradox :). Mike #106456 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 6:40 am Subject: Re: Concepts kenhowardau Hi pt, Thanks for the questions. Glad to be first cab off the rank. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Hi KenH, KenO, Nina, Howard, Sarah, > > > KH: I'll just reiterate that it is never the actual *concept* <. . .> > pt: Thank you all for contributions to this topic. I'm a bit confused now on the fundamentals of concepts and how they are said to work in abhidhamma. Some questions in that regard: 1. what exactly is the object of citta when it's said that concept is the object of citta? I mean, if it's said that concepts don't really exist, then what is the actual object of citta at that time? ------------- At that time the object is an illusion, or maybe even an hallucination. (The former going against ultimate truth, and the latter against both ultimate and conventional truth.) ------------------ 2. How is it that dhammas create concepts, as KenH describes above? I mean, what happens there? ----------------- Whatever happens there is likely to be similar in many ways to what happens in conventional reality. So, try to see what is happening conventionally when you create a concept of an aeroplane, for example. It seems to me that I have to remember (sanna) past concepts of aeroplanes, think (vitakka and vicara) about what type, size and shape this present one has to be be. There has to be some coordination (cetana) and intention (cetana again) for all the thought processes to work together. This is just what I remember from previous DSG discussions. I could go on, but I won't in case I've got it all wrong. (!) So, basically it's the same in the momentary world: citta and its cetasikas experience the same object that they create. ----------------- Pt: > I know it's said that sanna marks the concept, but what does this really mean? I mean, I don't understand what does "mark" mean. ----------------- That's is a difficult one for me too, but I'll have a go. One simile I recall was of a woodcutter who walked through the forest marking trees before they were cut down. In that way, when he saw the marked logs in the sawmill, he could tell, "This is the one I though would be good for a tabletop (or, this is the one I thought would be good for a roof beam) etc. I believe the marking and the recognising both happen in the one citta. But, even so, concepts from long ago still bear their marks, which can be recognised when they reappear. ------------------------- 3. It's often said that concepts are not real, but that thinking is - dhammas that take concepts as objects. How exactly recollecting of ideas and their meanings happens? I mean, again, I know that sanna is said to recollect these concepts, but what does that actually mean? What happens there? Could it be something like present sanna recollecting some previous sanna in fact? So kind of like a snapshot of dhammas that were present when that particular concept was created or "marked"? ------------------------- I'll be looking forward to answers from the others. Especially Sarah, who had a fever when last heard from. I hope you are feeling better now, Sarah. Ken H #106457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My thoughts on Dhamma (video) nilovg Dear Kevin, thank you. Op 31-mrt-2010, om 23:00 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > The video was basically just about my thoughts that many people do > not focus on anatta when they study the Buddhas teachings, ------ N:Yes, that is why I like to help with Abhidhamma: in our life there are only naama and ruupa. Nina. #106458 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 11:15 am Subject: Learn Abhidharma the easy way - 52 Chethasika = Vedana Skanda, Sanna Skanada and Sanskara Skanda all in one gemunu.rohana This illustration contains all 52 Chethasika. Chethasika are the ones which have following 4 properties. 1. Generated with the Chitta (Mind) 2. Destructed with the Chitta 3. Take the exact same focus that the Chitta generated for 4. Generated at the same location where the Chitta was generated At least 7 Chethasika have to be associated with any Chitta out of 89 Chitta (refer Vinnana Skanda). The numbered 7 Chethasika are the Bodi Anga (7 Bojjanga). The highlighted 14 are the Chethasika that are associated with all Akusal (sinful) Chitta (minds). The numbers that you see in some Chethasika are the no. of minds that Chethasika can be associated with out of 89 or 121 minds (refer Vinnana Skanda). To get a very clear picture on what Chethasika are, and beautiful analogies to understand them, One must read the books stated in the image. ~Vedana Skanda~ This is the mighty Vedana Chethasika that associate with all 89 Chitta stated in Vinnana Skanda ~Sanna Skanada~ This is the mighty Sanna Chethasika that associate with all 89 Chitta stated in Vinnana Skanda ~Sanskara Skanda~ This is the rest of the 50 Chethasika (without Sanna and Vedana Chethasika ) that associate with relevant Chitta in total of 89 stated in Vinnana Skanda http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/2010/04/52-chethasika-vedana-skanda-sanna\ .html May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! .... #106459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 6. Citta and Cetasikas. nilovg > Dear friends, > > Abhidhamma Series, no 6. > > Citta and Cetasikas. > > Citta does not arise singly, it is always accompanied by cetasikas, > mental factors. Only one citta arises at a time and each citta is > accompanied by several cetasikas. Citta is the leader in cognizing > an object and the accompanying cetasikas have each their own > function while they assist citta in cognizing an object. Citta may > be of one of the four jaatis of kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. > Cetasikas are of the same jaati as the citta they accompany. > > Some cetasikas such as feeling and remembrance or > ?perception? (sa???) accompany each citta, others do not. Feeling, > in P?li: vedan?, is a cetasika which arises with every citta. Citta > only knows or experiences its object; it does not feel. Feeling, > vedan?, however, has the function of feeling. Feeling is sometimes > pleasant, sometimes unpleasant. When we do not have a pleasant or > an unpleasant feeling, there is still feeling: at that moment the > feeling is neutral or indifferent. > Perception or remembrance, in P?li: sa???, marks the object so that > it can be recognized later on. Whenever we remember something it is > sa???, not self, which remembers. It is sa??? which, for example, > remembers that this colour is red, that this is a house, or that > this is the sound of a bird. > Contact, in P?li: phassa, is another cetasika which arises with > every citta; it ``contacts'' the object so that citta can > experience it. There are also types of cetasika which do not arise > with every citta. Unwholesome mental factors, akusala cetasikas, > accompany only akusala cittas, whereas sobhana cetasikas, > ?beautiful? mental factors, accompany kusala cittas. > > Among the cetasikas which can accompany akusala cittas or kusala > cittas, some are roots, hetus. A root or hetu is the foundation of > the akusala citta or kusala citta, just as the roots are the > foundation of a tree. They give a firm support to the citta and > cetasikas they arise together with. > There are three cetasikas which are unwholesome roots, akusala > hetus: lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) and moha (ignorance). > Akusala cittas may be rooted in moha and lobha, or in moha and > dosa, or they may have moha as their only root. Moha or avijjaa > arises with each akusala citta. Moha is blindness, it does not know > the danger of akusala; it is the root of all evil. > > There are three sobhana hetus, beautiful roots: non-attachment, > alobha, non-aversion, adosa, and pa~n~naa. All kusala cittas are > rooted in non-attachment, alobha, and non-aversion, adosa, and they > may of may not be rooted in wisdom, pa~n~naa. > There are many shades and degrees of the akusala hetus and the > sobhana hetus. > > Akusala citta is impure and it leads to sorrow. At the moment of > akusala citta there is no confidence in wholesomeness, one does not > see that akusala citta is impure and harmful. We may find it > difficult to see that even when we do not harm or hurt others, the > citta can still be akusala. For example, when we like nature, there > is a degree of attachment and attachment is not kusala, it is > different from unselfishness. We may see the danger of akusala > which is coarse, but it is difficult to see the danger of akusala > which is more subtle. However through the study of the Dhamma we > can acquire more understanding of akusala dhammas and then we may > begin to see the danger of all degrees of akusala. > Whenever the citta is not intent on wholesomeness, we act, speak > or think with akusala citta. We may not have unkind thoughts or > thoughts of coarse desire, but the cittas which think can still be > akusala cittas; they are akusala cittas whenever we do not think > wholesome thoughts. > When the citta is kusala, there is confidence in wholesomeness. > Confidence, or faith, saddhaa, is a sobhana cetasika. Each kusala > citta is assisted by many sobhana cetasikas. When we see the value > of kusala, there are conditions for the arising of kusala citta. > Kusala citta is pure and it is capable of producing a pleasant > result. When kindness or compassion arises, there is no person who > has these qualities, there is kusala citta accompanied by sobhana > cetasikas. Nobody can direct the cittas to be kusala cittas, they > arise because of the appropriate conditions. > Defilements and wholesome qualities are cetasikas, they are non- > self. They are not Iisted just to be read and memorized, they are > realities of daily life and they can be known as they are by being > mindful of them. > > ******** > Nina. > #106460 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts upasaka_howard Hi, pt (and all) - In a message dated 4/1/2010 12:56:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi KenH, KenO, Nina, Howard, Sarah, > KH: I'll just reiterate that it is never the actual *concept* that conditions anything. Only dhammas can do that. When a concept is said to act a object condition, for example, it is the nama's *act of taking of that concept as object* that does the conditioning. When a concept acts as natural decisive support, it is the past dhammas that created that concept that do the actual conditioning. pt: Thank you all for contributions to this topic. I'm a bit confused now on the fundamentals of concepts and how they are said to work in abhidhamma. Some questions in that regard: 1. what exactly is the object of citta when it's said that concept is the object of citta? I mean, if it's said that concepts don't really exist, then what is the actual object of citta at that time? ------------------------------------------------------- When speaking of a "conceptual object," one is just speaking informally of "what is being thought about". There is no actual phenomenon that is the object in the sense of an external "thing" or even an internal "idea thing" that is being encountered. Consider when you are "getting into your car". To speak informally, you are aware of your car when that happens. "Your car," for at least part of that time, is the so-called object. But all that is actually happening as regards "your car" is a particular thinking process based upon and interspersed with seeing and hearing and touching. Consider the simpler situation of feeling warmth while taking a bath or shower. The warmth experienced through the body door is just a passing, ever-changing quality of the experiential flow that only later comes to be thought of as a self-existent thing: "The warmth that I am experiencing". Almost immediately following upon the body-door experiencing, there is a primitive element of thinking that comes into play that conventionally separates off (or carves out) the quality as an entity, a separate "something". That mental carving out is already a matter of convention. That already is the beginning of a process of reification/thing-making. After the quality, already subject to the convention of viewing it as a "thing," is felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, recognition (sa~n~na) further identitfies it, relating it to prior experience and categorizing it, perhaps wordlessly, as "warmth," and that is further reification. Then further thinking may occur, a mental and emotional proliferation (papan~nca) that "solidifies" the seeming warmth-entity into a self-existent thing that is "mine" and that is reacted to by way of craving or aversion. But what *actually* was involved in all this? Body-door consciousness of a quality (later called "warmth") that is pounced upon in stages by a host of atta-defiled mental operations that make a mountain out of a molehill. --------------------------------------------------------- 2. How is it that dhammas create concepts, as KenH describes above? I mean, what happens there? I know it's said that sanna marks the concept, but what does this really mean? I mean, I don't understand what does "mark" mean. 3. It's often said that concepts are not real, but that thinking is - dhammas that take concepts as objects. How exactly recollecting of ideas and their meanings happens? I mean, again, I know that sanna is said to recollect these concepts, but what does that actually mean? What happens there? Could it be something like present sanna recollecting some previous sanna in fact? So kind of like a snapshot of dhammas that were present when that particular concept was created or "marked"? Thanks. Best wishes pt ================================== With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #106461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 12:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts and sa~n~naa. nilovg Dear pt, Nori and Vince, Op 1-apr-2010, om 6:56 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1. what exactly is the object of citta when it's said that concept > is the object of citta? I mean, if it's said that concepts don't > really exist, then what is the actual object of citta at that time? ------ N: We can verify that citta can think of anything, imaginary or not. Whatever citta thinks about is the object of citta. --------- > > pt:2. How is it that dhammas create concepts, as KenH describes > above? I mean, what happens there? I know it's said that sanna > marks the concept, but what does this really mean? I mean, I don't > understand what does "mark" mean. -------- N: As you know concept has many meanings. When concept stands for an idea, we could say that it is 'created' by the citta that thinks. The function of sa~n~naa is not quite covered by marking and/or remembrance. Because of sa~n~naa there can be remembrance of former experiences. For example, you know because of sa~n~naa that a knife is used for cutting up vegetables or meat. Or that you can find this sutta text at such or such part of the Nikaayas. --------- > > pt: 3. It's often said that concepts are not real, but that > thinking is - dhammas that take concepts as objects. How exactly > recollecting of ideas and their meanings happens? I mean, again, I > know that sanna is said to recollect these concepts, but what does > that actually mean? What happens there? Could it be something like > present sanna recollecting some previous sanna in fact? So kind of > like a snapshot of dhammas that were present when that particular > concept was created or "marked"? ------- N: I quote from my Cetasikas which may clarify some things: What may also help: Abhidhamma Studies, by Ven. Nyanaponika who explains that the making of marks and remembering is included in every act of perception. ***** Nina. #106462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Nori, Op 1-apr-2010, om 4:15 heeft nori het volgende geschreven: > N: "That is by sa~n~naa, the cetasika remembrance... Sa~n~naa marks > or remembers the object experienced by citta. Through the > development of jhaana special powers can be acquired, such as > remembrance of past lives." > > Would you happen to know how sa~n~naa is 'retained'/'maintained' > and passed on from life to life, citta to citta / cetasika to > cetasika? ------- N: Each citta is accompanied by sa~n~naa which marks and remembers the object. It marks visible object, sound, etc. depending on the citta it accompanies. See my post to pt. It may not answer all your questions. Nina. #106463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 12:56 pm Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Vince, Op 31-mrt-2010, om 0:47 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > It would mean that there is not accumulation of understanding (because > citta works perfectly all the time). What we keep is a trend of > ignorance, and then we can only accumulate a cleaning of our own wrong > views. We know these wrong views arises because attachment to our own > ideas and speculations which are added to the pure experience of the > present moment. > > If attachment is the cause, then this cleaning only can exist when > there is detachment of what causes attachment. And then it is a > condition for the experience of citta contacting its object can become > manifest as she really is. And then we say "understanding". ------- N: Only understanding can lead to detachment, but this is probably what you intend to express. There is accumulation of understanding in the course of countless years, aeons. Intellectual understanding, the level of pariyatti, can grow so that there can be direct awareness and understanding. If that were not the case, enlightenment could not be attained. Nina. #106464 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 1:54 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal Hi Ken, KO: Rules can be kusala be it understanding arise or not. Sukin: You are referring to when there is saddha but no panna. This could be saddha towards the Triple Gem or saddha when arisen with Dana, Sila or other kusala cittas. Where does `following rules' fit in here? ========= >Suk: You are referring to faith that must exist prior to any arisen panna and not the one that necessarily arises with it. So you are saying that there is faith in the Triple gems without any level of panna and that panna cannot arise without this faith first coming to be? And I think likewise, that you are also making a case for the other mental factors such as sati and sila, that these must be there *before* panna? KO: It is not correct to say that panna must arise to condition panna that is what I am trying to say. There could be other factors that can condition panna. Not necessary panna must arise first. They could condition panna later or panna can arise earlier. It does not matter. What matters it that panna must be develop in order for eradication of akusala. Sukin: I like your conclusion. But if you stick to it, is there a need then to make a case for other kinds of kusala as possibly leading to panna? ======== >S: Giving priority to understanding the present moment does not mean nothing else matters. No doubt what is in the Vinaya and the Suttas and the development of Samatha bhavana all these are best seen in light of understanding present moment realities, this however does not mean for example, that kusala without panna is not valuable. But why do you conclude that if one is focused on the need to develop right understanding of present moment realities, this implies rejection of the Suttas and Vinaya? KO: Yes but it does seen to be the way here. There are stressing that there is no action, no rules, no training development (dont use method too many argument), that is IMHO the rejection of suttas, Vinaya and the Abhidhammas. Hmm you better dont use words like giving priority because everything is conditioned :-) where is there priority. I thought there is no choice, how come now there is priority :-). So that is what you get when you try to explain conventional wordings over understanding. It is just inclinations and accumlations. Sukin: :-) OK, I'll be more careful next time, and I like your reasoning! But let us go back to the matter of rules etc. Aren't you misrepresenting when you say that those other people deny `action' and `development' and then go too far when you conclude that they reject the Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma? What I hear being rejected is the view that `meditation' is what constitutes practice, or that samatha is conducive to the development of Right Understanding or there is need for calm prior to investigation of dhammas etc. All these involve particular conventional actions and hence these are also being rejected, at least by me. In general, I don't think anyone denies action in the conventional sense, though they would see this as being concept / shadow of what are in reality paramattha dhammas arising and falling away. In other words, the *real* action takes place between paramattha dhammas and not between people, things and situations. Regarding development, they see this again as being the function of paramattha dhammas, most notably wisdom. Only they don't think that wisdom is involved when something in the Visuddhimagga for example, is seen as rules to follow??:-/ ========= >S: True, and for some faith is strong as compared to wisdom. However, faith without wisdom means nothing in terms of the Path being developed, does it not? KO: you are right. :-) >S: What I am saying is that listening and reading can be conventional actions undertaken with right or wrong view. Meditation as is spoken of here is necessarily motivated by wrong view and never right view. KO: Thats interesting. I thought that is not the position here, all conventions action are view with miccha ditthi. Sukin: I've not heard anything like this so far, but then again I'm more than three weeks behind in my reading. :-( ========= KO: All along I have been saying that conventional actions can be with right or wrong view. Sukin: Of course we are referring to concept as representing a particular view here, but given this, do you consider the conventional activity known as `mediation' and which is practiced by most Buddhists today, as being possibly undertaken with right view? ========= >Suk: It does not have to imply this Ken. When you talk about sati and faith and wisdom, aren't you talking about cetasikas? And when you talk about hearing and seeing, aren't theses cittas? > KO: Convention actions are not at cetasikas and citta level, I mean at the very direct experience. Sukin: Are you saying this Ken, that as long as I do not yet experience any insight into dhammas, I would need to rely on conventional actions in order to develop understanding? Do you not see the Path as involving the relationship between Pariyatti, Patipatti and Pativedha? Do you mean Pariyatti is about following certain conventional activities and Patipatti something else and Pativedha is when you finally come to understand those conventional activities as citta, cetasikas and rupa? Please clarify. I believe that I must be misreading you, because the above sounds quite strange to me and because you appear to express an altogether different understanding at other times. ========= KO: there is nothing wrong about meditation and dont say the idea of meditations are miccha ditthi. That is incorrect, ancient masters do it. It is just that a lot of people now practise meditation without the correct understanding. Sukin: What did the ancient masters do Ken? Are you imagining something and think that someone else can also do the same? Isn't this leaning towards the kind of thinking followed by the meditators? Whatever went on with those people, do you think that it can be analyzed and reduced to being a method for someone else to follow? When you first had any Right Understanding about the Dhamma and all instances of such which followed, did any of them involve following a method? When a moment of metta arises in a day, was any of those preceded by recitation and such? Why should it be any different with high levels of samatha even, not to speak of vipassana? The problem is not so much that one approaches samatha meditation without correct understanding, but the very idea that this is about taking steps from one to the next is perhaps a wrong focus? I mean, to the person who is developing samatha, it is panna in the moment that sees the value of kusala and harm in akusala which is key factor, not the following of some method, wouldn't you say? ======== KO: I agreed with AS that we should understand what is meditation. There is so much misunderstanding and it is so common that people stop looking at the text carefully. We should not be against meditation, we should explain what is meditation so that people know for themselves whether they are doing the correct thing. Sukin: You mean that when the wisdom has reached a certain level you can then open the Visuddhimagga to find out how to meditate correctly? Or do you open it and perhaps learn something about conditioned dhammas? ;-) I don't think A. Sujin ever suggested to the effect that one should first learn about what meditation is so that one would then be more careful with regard to taking up the practice. I think she means to point out the fact of `practice' being in fact a conditioned dhamma and not some activity to follow. If you are referring to samatha development, there is still the question of understanding the Path. If someone understood the 4th Noble Truth, would he think to follow a method to have more kusala cittas? I doubt it. ======== KO: There is no need for us to barrage against meditation because meditators will become defensive. Explain it for the benefit of them. Sukin: I think all the meditators here are used the kind of comment and have in fact learnt to argue back without being defensive. ;-) ======== >Suk: OK, now you come to the point. >Cetana arises with all cittas performing the function of coordinating and in the case of javana, the additional function of willing. This latter can manifest as action through body, speech or mind, and if kusala, lead to good results and if akusala, to bad results. KO: That is explanation of cetana. So do cetana will in case of conventional listening or not? Sukin: Yes?.. ======== >S: I am very, very behind in my reading and so I haven't seen your question to anyone else and therefore read their response. But haven't I given my answer? Or is it that mine didn't satisfy you? KO: nope I have yet seen your reply or maybe I have too much thinking. could you kindly explain again. thanks Sukin: I can't find it now. But in short this is how I understand it: Reading for example would involve many cittas arising and falling away. These include moments of seeing alternating with thinking and other kinds of cittas. However, I don't need to make something out of the conventional activity just because reading can't happen within one mind moment. If seeing experiences only color, and thinking has concept as object and both these arise by conditions, this is what I need to understand and not that reading involves many processes. Metta, Sukinder #106465 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 1:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal Hi Ken, You wrote: KO: It is also wrong to say there is no prescribe pratice or method. Visuds are full of them. There are disciples who practise reciting of 32 parts and become sotapanna. Nothing wrong with prescribe practise, it can be again a strong paccaya just like sila. It is the comprehension of these methods thiat is important. It is the comprehension that the practise of walk forth and back is just cittas, body intimations and rupas. There are disciples who practise this become Arahants. Dont mix methods with self, just like mixing conventions with miccha ditthi. There is nothing wrong with rules or methods, they are just methods or rules, it is only with arisen with aksuala especially miccha ditthi, that is the wrongness. Sukin: Panna can arise at anytime, taking any reality as object when it has become strong enough. Do you mind explaining to me about how `methods' help particularly? There are methods to how clothes are cut and stitched, and I can learn that. But for the arising of certain kinds of conditioned dhammas, how this can be achieved by following some method, this I have difficulty understanding. You may be right when limiting yourself to samatha development, I don't know. But when you say for example, `reciting' is condition for kusala to arise or panna to develop; I understand reciting to be either with kusala or akusala citta. You will say then that panna makes the distinction and thereby be encouraging more kusala. But this does not say anything about the value of recitation itself. Could it be that a person has developed the tendency to think over a particular theme with kusala citta and then with time such instances arose more often and hence recitation became just an offshoot of that?.?? I know that there were people who developed Jhana and they even approached teachers who then helped them with its development. But perhaps they didn't go there with the intention of seeking a method but just to listen to the teacher teach about the Dhamma or about other kinds of kusala, and that their ending up being given a meditation object was more or less by chance? Would a potential Jhanalabi be involved in thoughts about going to some particular teacher living somewhere, just so that he can then learn how to become more proficient in Jhana? The idea of some teacher waiting for students to come and be given a meditation object also sounds quite strange to me?. But you may be right Ken, and it could be that I'm just being unreasonable here?.. Metta, Sukinder #106466 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 2:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts & realities + N8P truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > > > >See Yuganaddha Sutta. There are only 4 ways for Arhatship and all of them include either samatha or samadhi. > > > >-insight preceded by tranquillity > >-tranquillity preceded by insight > >-tranquillity in tandem with insight > >-one's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. > > KO:? By the above suttae, there could be tranquillity after insight or tranquillity before insight, so it shows there is no need for jhanas to be enlighted.? Tranquility is calm and calm means equanimity. It can be jhanas or not jhanas as equanimity is a cetasika in the kusala cittas with or without panna. > > > Cheers > Ken > Lets see what the sutta says: "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it ? his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." Note: tranquility & insight happen prior to destruction of the fetters (Awakening). Also: "As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born." "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it ? his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html The samatha/samadhi happens prior or at the moment that path is developed. These are not superfluous extras. Entire N8P is needed. Not N7P, or worse N1P. With metta, Alex #106467 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 3:11 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals & VsM truth_aerator Dear Sukinder, KenO, all, > "sukinderpal" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > You wrote: > KO: It is also wrong to say there is no prescribe pratice or method. Visuds are full of them. There are disciples who practise reciting of 32 parts and become sotapanna. Nothing wrong with prescribe practise, it can be again a strong paccaya just like sila. It is the comprehension of these methods thiat is important. It is the comprehension that the practise of walk forth and back is just cittas, body intimations and rupas. There are disciples who practise this become Arahants. Dont mix methods with self, just like mixing conventions with miccha ditthi. There is nothing wrong with rules or methods, they are just methods or rules, it is only with arisen with aksuala especially miccha ditthi, that is the wrongness. > > Sukin: Panna can arise at anytime, taking any reality as object when it has become strong enough. Do you mind explaining to me about how `methods' help particularly? > Panna can arise at anytime ONLY when there were enough conditions for it to arise. Otherwise it sounds like you are saying that "awakening happens due to chance" which IS a terribly wrong view. With such a view, anyone could attain awakening and at any time - even Adolf Hitler or someone without any understanding. Proper causes must be set. Studying, considering, investigating and observing are some of the causes for panna, awakening and so on to arise. VsM is full of stories and it unambigiously says about recitation as part of 32 parts kayagatasati. VsM VIII, 49 "Even if one is master of the Tipitaka, the verbal recitation should still be done at the time of first giving it attention. For the meditation subject only becomes evident to some through recitation, as it did to the two elders who learned the meditation subject from the Elder Maha-Deva of the Hill Country (Malaya). On being asked for the meditation subject, it seems, the elder [242] gave the text of the thirty-two aspects, saying 'Do only this recitation for four months'. Although they were familiar respectively with two and three Pitakas, it was only at the end of four months of recitation of the meditation subject that they became stream-enterers, with right apprehension [of the text]. So the teacher who expounds the meditation subject should tell the pupil to do the recitation verbally first." Note: "Although they were familiar respectively with two and three Pitakas, it was only at the end of four months of recitation of the meditation subject that they became stream-enterers, with right apprehension [of the text]." ===================== VsM VII, 56-57 "56.The recitation should be done verbally in this way a hundred times, a thousand times, even a hundred thousand times. For it is through verbal recitation that the meditation subject becomes familiar, and the mind being thus prevented from running here and there, the parts become evident and seem like [the fingers of] a pair of clasped hands, like a row of fence posts. 57. 2. The mental recitation should be done just as it is done verbally. For the verbal recitation is a condition for the mental recitation, and the mental recitation is a condition for the penetration of the characteristic [of foulness]." ================================ Note the: "The recitation should be done verbally in this way a hundred times, a thousand times, even a hundred thousand times." With metta, Alex #106468 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin >Sukin: You are referring to when there is saddha but no panna. >This could be saddha towards the Triple Gem or saddha when arisen with Dana, Sila or other kusala cittas. Where does `following rules' fit in here? > KO: nama and rupa. No self that follow the rules but there are dhammas that follow the rules. There are chanda, viriya, cetana on top of panna and sadda :-) > >But let us go back to the matter of rules etc. >Aren't you misrepresenting when you say that those other people deny `action' and `development' and then go too far when you conclude that they reject the Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma? KO: Nope, that is the impression I have. No action, what is no action, can you explain why listening is a no action :-) >What I hear being rejected is the view that `meditation' is what constitutes practice, or that samatha is conducive to the development of Right Understanding or there is need for calm prior to investigation of dhammas etc. All these involve particular conventional actions and hence these are also being rejected, at least by me. > >In general, I don't think anyone denies action in the conventional sense, though they would see this as being concept / shadow of what are in reality paramattha dhammas arising and falling away. In other words, the *real* action takes place between paramattha dhammas and not between people, things and situations. > >Regarding development, they see this again as being the function of paramattha dhammas, most notably wisdom. Only they don't think that wisdom is involved when something in the Visuddhimagga for example, is seen as rules to follow……:-/ KO: That is wrong perception. Rules have their purpose. So far after I make statements that there are conventional actions in listenng and hearing dhamma, you are the one of the old guards here there say there is conventional actions in listening and hearing, I dont think a lot of them share the same view as you . Whether one practise meditation or not, it is just their accumulations, but they must understand what is meditation and not just jump into the wagon. >Sukin: Of course we are referring to concept as representing a particular view here, but given this, do you consider the conventional activity known as `mediation' and which is practiced by most Buddhists today, as being possibly undertaken with right view? KO: Sadly no. Without the understanding of nama and rupa, one should not undertake meditation. I will say more of this when I get to the topic of clear comprehension when I discuss on the study on the factors of jhanas. > >Sukin: Are you saying this Ken, that as long as I do not yet experience any insight into dhammas, I would need to rely on conventional actions in order to develop understanding? Do you not see the Path as involving the relationship between Pariyatti, Patipatti and Pativedha? Do you mean Pariyatti is about following certain conventional activities and Patipatti something else and Pativedha is when you finally come to understand those conventional activities as citta, cetasikas and rupa? >Please clarify. I believe that I must be misreading you, because the above sounds quite strange to me and because you appear to express an altogether different understanding at other times. KO: Yes as long as one there is no direct experience what we know now are just nimitas of nama and rupas. One cannot do without conventional actions of listening and reading of dhammas to understand more of dhamma. > >Sukin: What did the ancient masters do Ken? Are you imagining something and think that someone else can also do the same? Isn't this leaning towards the kind of thinking followed by the meditators? Whatever went on with those people, do you think that it can be analyzed and reduced to being a method for someone else to follow? When you first had any Right Understanding about the Dhamma and all instances of such which followed, did any of them involve following a method? When a moment of metta arises in a day, was any of those preceded by recitation and such? Why should it be any different with high levels of samatha even, not to speak of vipassana? > >The problem is not so much that one approaches samatha meditation without correct understanding, but the very idea that this is about taking steps from one to the next is perhaps a wrong focus? I mean, to the person who is developing samatha, it is panna in the moment that sees the value of kusala and harm in akusala which is key factor, not the following of some method, wouldn't you say? KO: Nope, I am just stating a fact that is in the Visud that ancients master do practise meditaiton and there is method they follow. Methods, rules are just like cars and buildings, as long as there is no perversion of perception, there is nothing wrong about that. We must learn to differentitate concepts with self. Concepts are not self view. > >Sukin: You mean that when the wisdom has reached a certain level you can then open the Visuddhimagga to find out how to meditate correctly? Or do you open it and perhaps learn something about conditioned dhammas? ;-) >I don't think A. Sujin ever suggested to the effect that one should first learn about what meditation is so that one would then be more careful with regard to taking up the practice. I think she means to point out the fact of `practice' being in fact a conditioned dhamma and not some activity to follow. >If you are referring to samatha development, there is still the question of understanding the Path. If someone understood the 4th Noble Truth, would he think to follow a method to have more kusala cittas? I doubt it. KO: There is no need for me to explain this, it is written in the Visud where a person who undertake a meditation subject and became sotapanna. Unless you have text to prove your assertation that meditation is wrong, then we should not come to our own conclusions. > >Sukin: I think all the meditators here are used the kind of comment and have in fact learnt to argue back without being defensive. ;-) KO: Not always truth and you dont get my point, I said we should be compassion and explain dhamma. > >Sukin: I can't find it now. But in short this is how I understand it: >Reading for example would involve many cittas arising and falling away. These include moments of seeing alternating with thinking and other kinds of cittas. However, I don't need to make something out of the conventional activity just because reading can't happen within one mind moment. If seeing experiences only color, and thinking has concept as object and both these arise by conditions, this is what I need to understand and not that reading involves many processes. > KO: this is conventional action :-) there can be clear comprehension in reading and listening, no worries. Cheers Ken O #106469 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin > >Sukin: Panna can arise at anytime, taking any reality as object when it has become strong enough. Do you mind explaining to me about how `methods' help particularly? KO: As a means and it can be a strong paccaya for development of panna. Visuds are full of them. >There are methods to how clothes are cut and stitched, and I can learn that. But for the arising of certain kinds of conditioned dhammas, how this can be achieved by following some method, this I have difficulty understanding. You may be right when limiting yourself to samatha development, I don't know. But when you say for example, `reciting' is condition for kusala to arise or panna to develop; I understand reciting to be either with kusala or akusala citta. You will say then that panna makes the distinction and thereby be encouraging more kusala. But this does not say anything about the value of recitation itself. Could it be that a person has developed the tendency to think over a particular theme with kusala citta and then with time such instances arose more often and hence recitation became just an offshoot of that….?? KO: one can recites with understanding. And there are instances of one who recite be it verbally then mentally becomes sotapanna. > >I know that there were people who developed Jhana and they even approached teachers who then helped them with its development. But perhaps they didn't go there with the intention of seeking a method but just to listen to the teacher teach about the Dhamma or about other kinds of kusala, and that their ending up being given a meditation object was more or less by chance? Would a potential Jhanalabi be involved in thoughts about going to some particular teacher living somewhere, just so that he can then learn how to become more proficient in Jhana? The idea of some teacher waiting for students to come and be given a meditation object also sounds quite strange to me…. >\ >But you may be right Ken, and it could be that I'm just being unreasonable here….. > KO: It is not strange, how do you approach AS in the first place. That is also the same motivation by them. Cheers Ken O #106470 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts & realities + N8P ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >Lets see what the sutta says: > >"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." > >Note: tranquility & insight happen prior to destruction of the fetters (Awakening). > >Also: "As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born." > >"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an04/an04. 170.than. html > >The samatha/samadhi happens prior or at the moment that path is developed. These are not superfluous extras. Entire N8P is needed. Not N7P, or worse N1P. > KO: you have forgetton that there are four ways there is tranquillity preceded by insight in Yuganaddha Sutta cheers Ken O #106471 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 1:23 pm Subject: What IS the Noble Eightfold Path upasaka_howard Hi, all - It has been expressed by some here, and I suspect this IS the Theravadin commentarial view, that the N8P is something other than a path of practice extending of a period of time, even aeons, but an awakening experience occurring in a fraction of a second. With regard to that perspective, I would ask you to consider the following sutta and the question I raise about it: _______________________________________ SN 47.40 PTS: S v 183 CDB ii 1659 Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of the Frames of Reference translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu _© 1997–2010 _ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.040.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) "I will teach you the frames of reference, their development, and the path of practice leading to their development. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak. "Now, what are the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is called the frames of reference. "And what is the development of the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "He remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to feelings, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to feelings, remains focused on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to feelings — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "He remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, remains focused on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "He remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to mental qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to mental qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to mental qualities — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is called the development of the frames of reference. "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." _____________________________________ My question is as follows: Most of this sutta is devoted to discussing the 4 foundations of mindfulness and the development of them in terms of calmly focusing on them without craving or upset, on their origination, and on their cessation. And then, at the very end of the sutta, the Buddha addresses "the path of practice (leading) to the development of the frames of reference," and he identifies that as the N8P. So, it seems that the Buddha has the N8P coming first, not last, and that being the path leading to the 4 foundations of mindfulness. Does this not give you at least some pause? ================================ With metta, Howard #106472 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 5:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and craving. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >KH: The correct response to Ken O is to ask, "Who, or what, is the "we" that can do nothing about it?" > >On previous occasions when I have asked Ken this he has avoided a straight answer - saying the usual things about "I know there is no self." But the question should be asked again and again until Ken answers "Why would it matter if "we" could do nothing about conditions? You say there is no self, but you are obviously worried about something." >\ KO:? namas and rupas, I though I have said that.? There is no self in action?as it is anatta, but does not mean there is no action.? ?If there is no action, which dhamma that will, how do you listen to dhamma.? So when you are conditioned to read a book, is that not a perference by chandha with panna.??Can?panna interest? Can panna will? >------------ --------- --------- ---- > >Good quote; this is exactly the point. Who are these living beings or souls that are without power? There are none, of course, and that is why the given view is a wrong one. It presupposes the existence of beings or souls. Therefore, it makes anatta look like fatalism. > >------------ --------- -------- KO:???This part the commentary is talking about?annahilistic view,?the other side of the wrong view, not talking about a self view here, so dont mixed up.? The quote is to explain, there is dhamma that exist that perform the function of striving.? So cannot say there is no effort and all depends on chance. >------------ --------- --------- - > >KH: No, DSG should continue to argue that there are only dhammas. Cetana is a dhamma, and it acts in a way that dhammas act - in a single fleeting moment. Therefore, cetana doesn't (for example) go to the corner store to buy a bottle of milk. That sort of action is pannatti (concept, thought, story). > >When we understand cetana as being purely a conditioned dhamma we are not bothered about how it acts, but when we think of a poor man walking to the shop, acting like some sort of robot, then we have wrong view. KO:? A fleeting moment does not mean dhamma? will not perform its distinct function.???You are mixing up concepts with action, without cetana, can you move the body intimations or verbal intimations.?? When we perceive someone walking that is pannati, but when we move, it is conditioned by cittas and cetasiaks with cetana that acts.?? So cetana is a dhamma that acts,? so now is there?no act or there is no self that act. cheers Ken O #106473 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 5:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals & VsM ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >From: truth_aerator >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, 1 April 2010 23:11:04 >Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals & VsM > >? >Dear Sukinder, KenO, all, > >> "sukinderpal" wrote: >> >> >> Sukin: Panna can arise at anytime, taking any reality as object when it has become strong enough. Do you mind explaining to me about how `methods' help particularly? >> > >Panna can arise at anytime ONLY when there were enough conditions for it to arise. Otherwise it sounds like you are saying that "awakening happens due to chance" which IS a terribly wrong view. With such a view, anyone could attain awakening and at any time - even Adolf Hitler or someone without any understanding. > KO:? I just like to explain Panna can arise anytime, it is not to be seen?as chance.? IMHO, it means panna arise because there are condtions for it arise.? It can arise due to sanna, sati, sadda etc.? But our panna is not strong, so when there is an awareness of panna at our intellectual level, at times it seems to arise anytime, actually it has been conditioned to arise. cheers Ken O? > #106474 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts ashkenn2k Dear pt > >1. what exactly is the object of citta when it's said that concept is the object of citta? I mean, if it's said that concepts don't really exist, then what is the actual object of citta at that time? > KO:??The actual object is?a concept that is the object of the citta.? Concepts could be experience in the mind door?and only in the mind door,? Concept and cittas and cetasikas and rupas can be experienced in the mind door, the difference is not?citta cannot experience the object.? The difference is that concept has no?real characteristic and distinct function.??Fire element is hot, it?characteristic of?hot?can be experience by a person in any parts of the whole, but concept like Ipod could be alien to those who live in the jungles since brith who has no access to technology.? So this person in jungle cannot experience Ipod as a concept, but this person can experience hot in fire element. >2. How is it that dhammas create concepts, as KenH describes above? I mean, what happens there? I know it's said that sanna marks the concept, but what does this really mean? I mean, I don't understand what does "mark" mean. KO:? I explain mark, a better word is recognise.? Sanna not just recognise, it also remembers.? Just like looking at an elephant, sanna recognise its long?trunk, tusk etc.?? So when we?see a?tusk,?we are able to recognise and remember it is an elephant even without lookng at the whole elephant.???Do you want to know how dhammas create concepts.? >3. It's often said that concepts are not real, but that thinking is - dhammas that take concepts as objects. How exactly recollecting of ideas and their meanings happens? I mean, again, I know that sanna is said to recollect these concepts, but what does that actually mean? What happens there? Could it be something like present sanna recollecting some previous sanna in fact? So kind of like a snapshot of dhammas that were present when that particular concept was created or "marked"? KO:? I think there is already some explanation,? Do you still require explanation. Cheers Ken O #106475 From: "Christine" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 6:29 pm Subject: Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? christine_fo... Anyone??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello all, > > A friend has asked how Imagination is viewed in the Abhidhamma. > I thought Imagination might be "Just Thinking" "Proliferation of thoughts" - Papanca. > > Would appreciate any input with quotes. > > with metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > #106476 From: "Christine" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 7:12 pm Subject: Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? christine_fo... Hello all, Some of the lay and ordained members over at DhammaWheel have responded, and it seems there was some research at the University of Bristol a few years back: Imagination http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3997 with metta Chris ~~~The Trouble is that you think you have time~~~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Anyone??? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > A friend has asked how Imagination is viewed in the Abhidhamma. > > I thought Imagination might be "Just Thinking" "Proliferation of thoughts" - Papanca. > > > > Would appreciate any input with quotes. > > > > with metta > > Chris > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > > #106477 From: Vince Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 7:53 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: Only understanding can lead to detachment, but this is probably > what you intend to express. that's sure?. My point was about understanding is detachment. As we have language, then we say "understanding" to the search of detachment. Pariyatti is a practice for pativedha but I doubt pativedha is an effect of pariyatti. What we name "understanding" is a right way to articulate our thoughts using words. Words are labels for the objects, then it is just a way to put order in the experience before know it by another mean. In example, we say the human being has understanding but animals lack of it. Although they lack of language and don't have understanding, they are also able to put order in the experience. Our main difference with them regarding progress is not "understanding" but detachment. Animals cannot be detached of their own wishes and volitions as we can. In the Buddhist schema of existence, the hells are a worse destiny than the animal kingdom. And somebody can go to a hell despite he has understanding. We can be detached of an object without understanding of the object. But we cannot understand the object without be detached of it. So it seems detachment goes first than understanding. It can be related with the role of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. What do you think?. > There is accumulation of understanding in the course of countless > years, aeons. Intellectual understanding, the level of pariyatti, can > grow so that there can be direct awareness and understanding. If that > were not the case, enlightenment could not be attained. I agree. But my point is, if pariyatti can be a way to put order in the experience so detachment can grow when we check detachment can arise without pariyatti. have a good spring! Vince. #106478 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 9:19 pm Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg jonoabb Hi Mike My apologies for the delay in replying. It's been a busy week for me (plus I managed to catch Sarah's flu on the day we were flying back to HK). (106328) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > ... > Mike: I took the point of the teachings that it is necessary to understand that these conceptual things we experience are a result of a large number of paramattha dhammas. That's the sense in which I talked about analysis. > =============== Yes, I understood that to be your point. But I'm still not sure if we see things the same way here ;-)) To my understanding, so-called 'conceptual things' are not actually experienced. They can be the object of consciousness, i.e., as thoughts, but they are mind-created; there is no characteristic there capable of being directly experienced. The message of the teachings is that it is dhammas that are to be understood. The conceptual things that our mind creates are an overlay and, as such, do not call for the scrutiny of panna. > =============== > Mike: To me, that's just a matter of which way round you look at it. What appears to be a "self" can be analysed into dhammas because it is the stream of dhammas that create it. > =============== I would say that 'self' is just an idea and, as such, is not capable of analysis into component parts. If dhammas are seen as they truly are, as and when they arise, then the falsity of that idea will become fully apparent. Until such time as panna has been developed to the necessary degree, however, the idea of a "self" will continue to arise, since that particular view has been accumulated and is deeply held. It is one of the dhammas that are to be seen as they truly are as and when they arise. > =============== > Mike: Yes, but "reality" is a rather loaded concept in the English language, and I don't see it as crucial here. I don't see that "reality" is needed in your argument above, only "indivisibility". > =============== But I think there's a need for some kind of terminology to express the distinction between the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha (which are said to be 'real' in the ultimate sense) and the conceptual things that are generally taken to be the 'realities' of the world in which we live (but which have no ultimate existence/reality). I would say it's more than just indivisibility, in that dhammas exhibit characteristics that are capable of being understood and penetrated, whereas conceptual things do not. Jon #106479 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 9:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and craving. jonoabb Hi Alex Apologies for the delay. (106326) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Does He ever correlated khandha-ayatana-dhatu as dhamma (plural)? > > > Yes, but only dhammas can be object of insight (wholes cannot). > > What about his statement that contemplation of "analysis of repulsiveness of edible food" (like a flesh of one's own son) leading up to Anagami level? > =============== I take it you are disagreeing with the proposition that only dhammas can be object of insight, 'wholes' cannot. In that case, what is your understanding of the significance of dhammas spoken of by the Buddha? You also question whether khandhas, ayatanas and dhatus are different ways of classifying dhammas. What do you see as the correlation (if any) between khandha-ayatana-dhatu and dhammas? Jon #106480 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My thoughts on Dhamma (video) farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, Thank you. I am happy if you enjoyed the video. Kevin Dear Kevin, thank you. Op 31-mrt-2010, om 23:00 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > The video was basically just about my thoughts that many people do > not focus on anatta when they study the Buddhas teachings, ------ N:Yes, that is why I like to help with Abhidhamma: in our life there are only naama and ruupa. Nina. #106481 From: "colette" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 12:39 am Subject: Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? ksheri3 Hi Christine, (ben-Dharmawheel), IMAGINATION? Hmmmmm, what was the Buddha saying about DELUSIONS? How do DELUSIONS operate in REALITY? I ask about the relationship between delusions and actual reality (RELATIVE TRUTH) because I believe there is an actual connection between the Delusions that the Buddha spoke of, the Reality we all exist with, and that which is labeled (given FORM through the kamma, action, of labeling) a NAME. The connection I'm looking at is the playdo-like characterist of REALITY after it has been given FORM through a NAME or an action, kamma, of labeling. I'm saying that reality is mold-able, it can be shaped and formed AFTER ACTIONS HAVE TAKEN PLACE AND ONLY EXIST IN THE PAST DHARMA. As an example I give you any government who writes their own history and is always written about as if they were worshipped and thus should always be worshipped. Imagination, huh? Fancy that. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello all, > > Some of the lay and ordained members over at DhammaWheel have responded, and it seems there was some research at the University of Bristol a few years back: > > Imagination > http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3997 <...> #106482 From: si-la-nanda Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 12:45 am Subject: Allowable Requisites for Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw & Sangha Venerables ... silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, *Offering Allowable Requisites to * *the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw & the Venerable Sangha Members * *at the* *6-Month Meditation Retreat at **Pa Auk Forest Monastery Mawlamyine* *Mynamar* *(1 January - 30 June 2010)* More info here A rare opportunity not to be missed ... mahakaruna silananda #106483 From: "philip" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 1:55 am Subject: Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now philofillet Hello again Nina This morning in my notebooks I came across a sutta excerpt that feels like a companion to this one: > > > done, If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to > > do so. ...Monks, do cultivate the good. It can be done, If it were > > impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. ... "> It is an excerpt from AN VII,12. The Buddha is asked whether he is a teacher of inaction, and he answers: "There is indeed a way in which one can say that I am a teacher of action, also a way in which one can say that I am a teacher of inaction. I do teach people to be inactive in regard to evil conduct in deeds, words and thoughts. I teacher inaction with regard to the multitude of evil, unwholesome qualities. But I also teach people to be active by way of good conduct in deeds, words and thoughts; I teach action in regard to the multitude of wholesome qualities." By the way, Lodewijk should rest assured that many people will listen to that recording of Perfections, in the years, decades and perhaps even centuries to come. He reads it with a lot of conviction. Of course we know that in the time that one spends reading one single sentence, countless cittas arise and most tend to be akusala. But I feel confident that kusala cittas can predominate when we are reading Dhamma, and I feel the presence of a lot of kusala in his voice (body intimation?) when he is reading it. I recommend it to those who haven't heard it. http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/#book It's a great book, very stirring and motivational for good deeds. Metta, Phil #106484 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 1:37 am Subject: Friendly + Unselfish = Honourable! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Blessed Buddha once said: Sanga-hako mittakaro, Vadaññu- vi-tamaccharo, Neta- vineta- anuneta-, Ta-diso labhate yasam. Friendly + Unselfish = Honourable! Who is hospitable, and friendly, Generous and unselfish, A guide, a teacher, a leader, Such one will to honour attain. Di-gha Nika-ya 3.273 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #106485 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, --- On Fri, 2/4/10, Christine wrote: > A friend has asked how Imagination is viewed in the Abhidhamma. > I thought Imagination might be "Just Thinking" "Proliferation of thoughts" - Papanca. > > Would appreciate any input with quotes. ... S: Yes, you give a good summary. Imagination! You'll remember the simile of the painting in "The Masterpiece": “Even that picture called 'Faring On' has been designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called 'Faring On'......... (SN22:100(8) The Leash 2, Bodhi transl.) All our creations, all our imaginations are just the work of cittas, arising one at a time, and their associated cetasikas (mental factors). In the Madhupi.n.dika Sutta (transl. by ~Naa.namoli,Bodhi), the Buddha points to the anusayas (the underlying unwholesome tendencies) we discuss so much here and the papa~nca (the proliferations), the lobha, maana and di.t.thi (attachment, conceit and wrong view) on account of what is experienced. We think of the experiences through the senses as being desirable, but these are conditioned by ignorance and attachment as the Cycle of Dependent Origination makes clear. Here are the Buddha's words from the sutta: " 'Bhikkhus, as to the source through which perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferations beset a man: if nothing is found there to delight in, welcome and hold to, this is the end of the underlying tendency to lust, of the underlying tendency to aversion, of the underlying tendency to views, of the underlying tendency to doubt, of the underlying tendency to conceit, of the underlying tendency to desire for being, of the underlying tendency to desire for being, fo the underlying tendency to ignorance; this is the end of resorting to rods and weapons, of quarrels, brawls, disputes, recrimination, malice, and false speech; here these evil unwholesome states cease without remainder.'" The Buddha left, but the bhikkhus needed further explanation to understand the meaning and so went to Venerable Mahaa Kaccaana for elaboration: " 'Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future, and present forms cognizable through the eye.'" And of course, the same applies to the other senses and mind door. In the Buddha's brief discourse, the phrase "perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation" (papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa) is elaborated on by Maha Kaccaanaa. This is a key aspect of the Teachings. One moment of seeing of visible object and then many, many moments of thinking about, imagining what has been seen, so that our dream worlds, our fantasies continue on and on, dreaming, fantasizing about what has been seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched and what may be seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched in future. Let me also add Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the Buddha's discourse above, particularly on papa~nca in context: "The interpretation of this cryptic passage hinges on the word papa~nca and the compound papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa. ~Nm had translated the former as 'diversification' and the latter as 'calculations about perceptions of diversification.' It seems, however, that the primary problem to which the term papa~nca points is not 'diversification,' which may be quite in place when the sensory field itself displays diversity, but the propensity of the worldling's imagination to erupt in an effusion of mental commentary that obscures the bare data of cognition. In a penetrative study, 'Concept and Reality in Early Buddhism', Bhikkhu ~Na.nananda explains papa~nca as 'conceptual proliferation,' and I follow him in substituting 'proliferation' for ~Nm's 'diversification.' The commentaries identify the springs of this proliferation as the three factors—craving, conceit, and views—on account of which the mind 'embellishes' experience by interpreting it in terms of 'mine,' 'I' and 'my self.' Papa~nca is thus closely akin to ma~n~nanaa, 'conceiving,' in MN1. "The compound papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa is more problematic. Ven. ~Na.nananda interprets it to mean 'concepts characterized by the mind's prolific tendency,' but this explanation still leaves the word sa~n~naa out of account. MA glosses sankhaa by ko.t.thaasa, 'portion,' and says that sa~n~naa is either perception associated with papa~nca or papa~nca itself. I go along with ~Na.nananda in taking sankhaa to mean concept or notion (~Nm's 'calculation' is too literal) rather than portion. My decision to treat sa~n~naa-sankhaa as a dvanda compound, 'perceptions and notions,' may be questioned, but as the expression papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa occurs but rarely in the Canon and is never verbally analysed, no rendering is utterly beyond doubt. On alternative interpretations of its components, the expression might have been rendered 'notions [arising from] proliferation.' "The sequel will make it clear that the process of cognition is itself 'the source through which perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man.' If nothing in the process of cognition is found to delight in, to welcome, or to hold to, the underlying tendencies of the defilements will come to an end." (Note 229. MLDB, pp 1204-1205) Do you have any further quotes to share, Chris? **** Metta Sarah ====== #106486 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 5:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? christine_fo... Hello Sarah, Thank you for your post - much appreciated. It has been put to me to consider the 4 patisambhidas (analytical knowledges), one of which is "patibhana" which means something like imaginative wit in using language, coming up with illustrations and similies. What do you think? with metta Chris ~~~The trouble is that you think you have time~~~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris & all, > > --- On Fri, 2/4/10, Christine wrote: > > A friend has asked how Imagination is viewed in the Abhidhamma. > > I thought Imagination might be "Just Thinking" "Proliferation of thoughts" - Papanca. > > > > Would appreciate any input with quotes. > ... > S: Yes, you give a good summary. Imagination! > > You'll remember the simile of the painting in "The Masterpiece": > > “Even that picture called 'Faring On' has been designed in its diversity > by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called > 'Faring On'......... > (SN22:100(8) The Leash 2, Bodhi transl.) > > All our creations, all our imaginations are just the work of cittas, arising one at a time, and their associated cetasikas (mental factors). > > In the Madhupi.n.dika Sutta (transl. by ~Naa.namoli,Bodhi), the Buddha points to the anusayas (the underlying unwholesome tendencies) we discuss so much here and the papa~nca (the proliferations), the lobha, maana and di.t.thi (attachment, conceit and wrong view) on account of what is experienced. We think of the experiences through the senses as being desirable, but these are conditioned by ignorance and attachment as the Cycle of Dependent Origination makes clear. > > Here are the Buddha's words from the sutta: > > " 'Bhikkhus, as to the source through which perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferations beset a man: if nothing is found there to delight in, welcome and hold to, this is the end of the underlying tendency to lust, of the underlying tendency to aversion, of the underlying tendency to views, of the underlying tendency to doubt, of the underlying tendency to conceit, of the underlying tendency to desire for being, of the underlying tendency to desire for being, fo the underlying tendency to ignorance; this is the end of resorting to rods and weapons, of quarrels, brawls, disputes, recrimination, malice, and false speech; here these evil unwholesome states cease without remainder.'" > > The Buddha left, but the bhikkhus needed further explanation to understand the meaning and so went to Venerable Mahaa Kaccaana for elaboration: > > " 'Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future, and present forms cognizable through the eye.'" > > And of course, the same applies to the other senses and mind door. > > In the Buddha's brief discourse, the phrase "perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation" (papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa) is elaborated on by Maha Kaccaanaa. This is a key aspect of the Teachings. One moment of seeing of visible object and then many, many moments of thinking about, imagining what has been seen, so that our dream worlds, our fantasies continue on and on, dreaming, fantasizing about what has been seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched and what may be seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched in future. > > Let me also add Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the Buddha's discourse above, particularly on papa~nca in context: > > "The interpretation of this cryptic passage hinges on the word papa~nca and the compound papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa. ~Nm had translated the former as 'diversification' and the latter as 'calculations about perceptions of diversification.' It seems, however, that the primary problem to which the term papa~nca points is not 'diversification,' which may be quite in place when the sensory field itself displays diversity, but the propensity of the worldling's imagination to erupt in an effusion of mental commentary that obscures the bare data of cognition. In a penetrative study, 'Concept and Reality in Early Buddhism', Bhikkhu ~Na.nananda explains papa~nca as 'conceptual proliferation,' and I follow him in substituting 'proliferation' for ~Nm's 'diversification.' The commentaries identify the springs of this proliferation as the three factors?"craving, conceit, and views?"on account of which the mind 'embellishes' experience by interpreting it in terms of > 'mine,' 'I' and 'my self.' Papa~nca is thus closely akin to ma~n~nanaa, 'conceiving,' in MN1. > > "The compound papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa is more problematic. Ven. ~Na.nananda interprets it to mean 'concepts characterized by the mind's prolific tendency,' but this explanation still leaves the word sa~n~naa out of account. MA glosses sankhaa by ko.t.thaasa, 'portion,' and says that sa~n~naa is either perception associated with papa~nca or papa~nca itself. I go along with ~Na.nananda in taking sankhaa to mean concept or notion (~Nm's 'calculation' is too literal) rather than portion. My decision to treat sa~n~naa-sankhaa as a dvanda compound, 'perceptions and notions,' may be questioned, but as the expression papa~nca-sa~n~naa-sankhaa occurs but rarely in the Canon and is never verbally analysed, no rendering is utterly beyond doubt. On alternative interpretations of its components, the expression might have been rendered 'notions [arising from] proliferation.' > > "The sequel will make it clear that the process of cognition is itself 'the source through which perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man.' If nothing in the process of cognition is found to delight in, to welcome, or to hold to, the underlying tendencies of the defilements will come to an end." (Note 229. MLDB, pp 1204-1205) > > Do you have any further quotes to share, Chris? > **** > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #106487 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, --- On Fri, 2/4/10, Christine wrote: >Thank you for your post - much appreciated. It has been put to me to consider the 4 patisambhidas (analytical knowledges), one of which is "patibhana" which means something like imaginative wit in using language, coming up with illustrations and similies. >What do you think? .... S: I think this is an entirely different subject. The patisambhidas refer to the knowledges developed with insight, the Buddha having the highest degree of all four. In brief, they are as I recall: 1. attha patisambhida- knowledge of the deep meaning of all aspects of the Dhamma 2. dhamma patisambhida - knowledge of the causes and condiitons for all dhammas inc. the understanding of kamma and vipaka (knowledge of all kammas and vipakas in the Buddha's case). 3. nirutti patisambhida - knowledge of the meaning of language and right words for the accumulations of the listeners. If we hear 'vedana', is it just a word, a label, or is it a condition for the understanding of the reality right now? 4. pa.tibhaana patisambhida - (the one you refer to) is knowledge with regard to the first three. Because of the great wisdom, there's the ability understand and answer all Dhamma points appropriately. Again, of course, the Buddha had the greatest patisambhidas and could therefore use the most helpful illustrations and similes. I don't think "imaginative wit" as we use such an expression conventionally has anything to do with this last (or any) of the patisambhidas, though. The patisambhidas have nothing to do with attachment and papancas, as discussed. This is the difficulty of taking a term like 'imagination' and asking for an Abhidhamma explanation, isn't it? Easier to start with the Abhidhamma explanations.....:). An interesting discussion. What else has been "put to you" from the texts under the "imagination umbrella"? Metta Sarah ========= #106488 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal Hi Ken, KO: Sadly no. Without the understanding of nama and rupa, one should not undertake meditation. I will say more of this when I get to the topic of clear comprehension when I discuss on the study on the factors of jhanas. S: I think we are not getting any closer to an agreement in our discussion. Perhaps when you do start the topic that you speak of above, we may try again. What do you say? Metta, Sukinder #106489 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 2:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Chris, Regarding: S: "...This is the difficulty of taking a term like 'imagination' and asking for an Abhidhamma explanation, isn't it? Easier to start with the Abhidhamma explanations.....:). Scott: Yup. Here are some Paa.li words to consider (PTS PED), since it might make more sense to determine whether any terms in Paa.li might approach the idea of 'imagination.' "Sankappa [...cp. kappeti fig. meaning] thought, intention, purpose, plan...As equivalent of vitakka...Sankappa is defd at DhsA 124 as (cetaso) abhiniropanaa, i. e. application of the mind..." "Kappeti [Der. from kappa...shape, form...karoti to shape, to make, cp. karoti] to cause to fit, to create, build, construct, arrange, prepare, order...II. fig. 1. in special sense: to construct or form an opinion, to conjecture, to think Sn 799; DA i.103; -- 2. generally: to ordain, prescribe, determine...kappaapeti to cause to be made in all senses of kappeti..." "Vitakka [vi+takka] reflection, thought, thinking; 'initial application'...giving vitakka the characteristic of fixity & steadiness, vicaara that of movement & display)...vitakka is often combd with vicaara or "initial & sustained application" Mrs. Rh. D.; Cpd. 282; 'reflection [and] investigation' Rh. D.; to denote the whole of the mental process of thinking (viz. fixing one's attention and reasoning out, or as Cpd. 17 expls it 'vitakka is the directing of concomitant properties towards the object; vicaara is the continued exercise of the mind on that object.'...Note. Looking at the combn vitakka+vicaara in earlier and later works one comes to the conclusion that they were once used to denote one & the same thing: just thought, thinking, only in an emphatic way (as they are also semantically synonymous), and that one has to take them as one expression, like jaanaati passati, without being able to state their difference. With the advance in the Sangha of intensive study of terminology they became distinguished mutually. Vitakka became the inception of mind, or attending, and was no longer applied, as in the Suttas, to thinking in general. The explns of Commentators are mostly of an edifying nature and based more on popular etymology than on natural psychological grounds." Sincerely, Scott. #106490 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 5:03 pm Subject: Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? moellerdieter Hi Sarah ( Christine ...) you provided an interesting summary .. but I missed to find reference to Sankhara Khanda , isn't it the aggregate for imagination? with Metta Dieter #106491 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 5:41 pm Subject: Study on the development of Jhanas - Restraint of Sense Faculties ashkenn2k Dear Alex KO:? restraint is consider part of virtue as indicate in the sutta below as well as in Visud.? So again without virtue and restraint, concentration will be destroyed.? ? "If there is no sense control, o monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who lacks concentration." [AN VI, 50] ? http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/02-saman\ naphala-e.html 64. `And how, O king, is the Bhikshu guarded as to the doors of his senses [42]?[\q 80/] `When, O king, he sees an object with his eye he is not entranced in the general appearance or the details of it [43] . He sets himself to restrain that which might give occasion for evil states, covetousness and dejection, to flow in over him so long as he dwells unrestrained as to his sense of sight. He keeps watch upon his faculty of sight, and he attains to mastery over it. And so, in like manner, when he hears a sound with his ear, or smells an odour with his nose, or tastes a flavour with his tongue, or feels a touch with his body, or when he cognises a phenomenon with his mind he is not entranced in the general appearance or the details of it. He sets himself to restrain that which might give occasion for evil states, covetousness and dejection, to flow in over him so long as he dwells unrestrained as to his mental (representative) faculty. He keeps watch upon his representative faculty, and he attains to mastery over it. And endowed with this self-restraint, so worthy of honour, as regards the senses, he experiences, within himself, a sense of ease into which no evil state can enter [44] . Thus is it, O king, that the Bhikshu becomes guarded as to the doors of his senses.? KO:? In this sutta <>, is translated by?B Bodhi translation as <>.? ? Visud Chapter I, para 54. <> ? Elder Tissa attain Arahatship when he saw the teeth of a lady laughing with teh preception of foulness. <> ? Another verse <> ? ? Cheers Ken O #106492 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 6:27 pm Subject: Study on the development of Jhanas - Restraint of Sense Faculties (2) ashkenn2k Dear Alex KO: <> Why restraint? If there is no restraints, three conceivings could arise, craving, conceit, views. pg 55 Commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta, MN1, translated by B Bodhi. <<"He conceives (himself as) the seen": he conceives the seen with the three conceivings. How? (I) Seeing the visible form base in terms of perception of beauty (subhasa~n~na) and the preception of pleasure (sukkhasa~n~na), he arouses desire and lust for it, relishes it and delights in it. For this has been said by the Exalted One: "Beings become lustful, bikkhus over the form of a woman, entranced, infactuated, intoxicated, and fettered. Coming under the sway of the form of a woman, they sorrow for a long time (A.5:55/iii.68). Thus he conceives the seens with the conceiving of craving. Or he thinks:"May my body be thus in the future," and brings delight to bear upon it; or he gives alms yearning for the attainment of physical beauty, and so on in detail. In these ways too he conceives the seen with the conceiving of craving. (2) He arouses conceit on account of the excellence or deficiency of his own form in relation to another's thinking: "I am superior to him," or "I am equal," or "I am inferior." Thus he conceives the seen with the conceiving of conceit. (3) He conceives the visible form base as permanent, stable and eternal, or as self or the property of self, or as asupicious or inauspicious. Thus he conceives the seen with the conceiving of views. In this way he conceives the seen with the three conceivings.>> KO: I like this sutta about wrong views which is in relation to the conceiving of views. <> This sutta is quoted in The Path of Discrimination also http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.042-049x.irel.html#iti-043 <<§ 49. Held by Views {Iti 2.22; Iti 43} This was said by the Lord... "Bhikkhus, held by two kinds of views, some devas and human beings hold back and some overreach; only those with vision see. "And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back. "How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: 'In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death — this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!' Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach. "How, bhikkhus, do those with vision see? Herein a bhikkhu sees what has come to be as having come to be. Having seen it thus, he practices the course for turning away, for dispassion, for the cessation of what has come to be. Thus, bhikkhus, do those with vision see." Having seen what has come to be As having come to be, Passing beyond what has come to be, They are released in accordance with truth By exhausting the craving for being. When a bhikkhu has fully understood That which has come to be as such, Free from craving to be this or that, By the extinction of what has come to be He comes no more to renewal of being. This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.>> Cheers Ken O #106493 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 8:27 pm Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg mikenz66 Hi Jon, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'll skip over the first part, which I don't think is problematical, otherwise it becomes a little long... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I would say that 'self' is just an idea and, as such, is not capable of analysis into component parts. If dhammas are seen as they truly are, as and when they arise, then the falsity of that idea will become fully apparent. > > J: Until such time as panna has been developed to the necessary degree, however, the idea of a "self" will continue to arise, since that particular view has been accumulated and is deeply held. It is one of the dhammas that are to be seen as they truly are as and when they arise. Mike: Thanks for those observations. I guess I'm still thinking of "self" in the same way I would say that "emergent phenomena", arise out of complex systems (e.g. lasing, superconductivity, biological evolution). Mike: What you are saying goes to the heart of what I was referring to further down, when I questioned what exactly we mean by saying that conceptual phenomena such as the self "don't exist". As I understand it, you are saying that there is a difference between the nonexistence of conceptual phenomena and the fact that we can, in principle, analyse the laser amplifiers in the optical links that allow us to talk to each other into constituent parts. That even if we (again in principle) analyse all ultimate phenomena that went into the "creation" of self, we would conclude that "there is nothing there". > > =============== > > Mike: Yes, but "reality" is a rather loaded concept in the English language, and I don't see it as crucial here. I don't see that "reality" is needed in your argument above, only "indivisibility". > > =============== > > J: But I think there's a need for some kind of terminology to express the distinction between the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha (which are said to be 'real' in the ultimate sense) and the conceptual things that are generally taken to be the 'realities' of the world in which we live (but which have no ultimate existence/reality). > > J: I would say it's more than just indivisibility, in that dhammas exhibit characteristics that are capable of being understood and penetrated, whereas conceptual things do not. Mike: I can see what you mean here, but is is possible to point to some references to the "dhammas exhibit characteristics that are capable of being understood"? I can have a look through the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, but you might have something more specific. Mike #106494 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 9:06 pm Subject: Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? christine_fo... Hello all, I'm not sure if this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is encompassing the same meaning: Pushing the Limits Desire & Imagination in the Buddhist Path by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/pushinglimits.html with metta Chris ~~~The trouble is that you think you have time~~~ #106495 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:04 am Subject: Inaction re bad deeds philofillet Hi all I've found myself thinking about this sutta passage that I posted for Nina and Lodewijk, especially > I do teach people to be inactive in regard to evil conduct in deeds, words and thoughts. I teacher inaction with regard to the multitude of evil, unwholesome qualities. But I also teach people to be active by way of good conduct in deeds, words and thoughts; I teach action in regard to the multitude of wholesome qualities." For me this is a kind of confirmation that the Buddha does teach about action on the conventional level in addition to the paramattha level. (Maybe that is not in doubt, I forget, but it seems to me some people have denied that...) After all, at the paramattha level, there is never inaction for us, even if we (so to speak) abstain from a wrong deed, it is actually the action of a kusala citta doing so... So inaction in the non-doing of the deed in the conventional sense with action of countless abstaining cittas at the heart of the matter, something like that? Metta. Phil #106496 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:32 am Subject: Re: concepts and craving. kenhowardau Hi Mike and Ken O, ------------- <. . .> KH: > > . . . You say there is no self, but you are obviously worried about something. > > Mike: > Yes, this is a good question to ponder. But is there an implication that "you" do not have "worry" arise? -------------- I'm not sure how you're using ""you"" in this case - whether you mean "people with right view" or me, or Ken O or something else. I would say anyone with wrong understanding must have worries. Only direct right understanding (vipassana) could put an end to those worries, but theoretical right understanding would at least put an end to them in theory. -------------------- Mike: > I've noticed that these discussions may be anatta, but they do have a certain amount of "continuity": In Message #15177, Sun Aug 25, 2002, KenO wrote: > KO: I don't understand why free will must be associated > with a self. I think this is a concept developed by > the West (no offence please). We always forget that > there is a cetana that acts who itself is anatta. > Isn't this a wonderful paradox :). ----------------------- Perhaps you or Ken O could explain that for me. I would have thought the concept of free will was always associated with self. For example, the Tilakkhana Sutta seems to be saying if dhammas were self there would be free will (dhammas wouldn't have to be anicca dukkha and anatta). Ken H #106497 From: "colette" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 5:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? ksheri3 Hi Christine, Sarah is a good "intermediary" in this situation. NO, I do not use "wit" or "laughter" as a means other than to reduce the pain of that which I am dealing with i.e. morophine, heroin, in a combat situation. laughter can be and is good consciousness to use when applying these higher concepts of REALITY. We all have to deal with REALITY on our own terms and not from some book in it's two dimensional format. I thank you for your many avenues of enlightenment that you have given me. heaven knows I would never have gotten them by staying confined to this group and it's myopia or is that 'single-mindness'? Maybe I should look into this group called THE DHARMAWHEEL although if "citation" is a requirement then I can tell you that my ability to actually site all the material I use to work with is almost NON-EXISTANT and will just put me at odds with the DICTATES of the community THEREFORE I wouldn't even bother wasting your time and what little time I have. "Imagine there's no country. I wonder if you can" John Lennon. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello Sarah, > > Thank you for your post - much appreciated.<...> #106498 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 10:50 pm Subject: Wise + Virtuous = Worthy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Blessed Buddha once said: Pandito si-lasampanno, Sanho ca patibha-nava-, Niva-tavutti atthaddho, Ta-diso labhate yasam. Worthy, wise and virtuous: Who is wise and virtuous, Gentle and keen-witted, Humble and amenable, Such one may honour gain. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #106499 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? ashkenn2k Dear Christine that is the reason why we have to read the commentary and Abhidhamma. Without it, one mix craving with chanda, craving is akusala. When craving arise, panna will not arise. Whereas chanda is kusala or akusala depends what it arise with. Developing panna is due to chanda with panna or sadda and not craving, if there is craving, we will continue to remain in samasara. thats my thoughts. This article only cause more confusion to the dhamma about the meaning of chanda and craving Ken O > >From: Christine >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Saturday, 3 April 2010 05:06:56 >Subject: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? > > >Hello all, > >I'm not sure if this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is encompassing the same meaning: > >Pushing the Limits Desire & Imagination in the Buddhist Path by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ thanissaro/ pushinglimits. html > >with metta >Chris >~~~The trouble is that you think you have time~~~ > > > #106500 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts and craving. ashkenn2k Dear Mike and Ken H Wow that is a long time message. Thinking about it, I was wrong in certain aspect about free will. There is no free will because of dhamma condition, we are not free of its clutches. And also there is no free will because we cannot exercise control over dhamma, but there is a choice. No one or self make a choice, dhamma will make a choice because there is chanda and lobha. Cheers Ken O >Hi Mike and Ken O, > >------------ - ><. . .> >KH: > > . . . You say there is no self, but you are >obviously worried about something. >> > > >Mike: > Yes, this is a good question to ponder. But is there an implication that "you" do not have "worry" arise? >------------ -- > >I'm not sure how you're using ""you"" in this case - whether you mean "people with right view" or me, or Ken O or something else. > >I would say anyone with wrong understanding must have worries. Only direct right understanding (vipassana) could put an end to those worries, but theoretical right understanding would at least put an end to them in theory. > >------------ -------- >Mike: > I've noticed that these discussions may be anatta, but they do have a certain amount of "continuity" : > >In Message #15177, Sun Aug 25, 2002, KenO wrote: >> KO: I don't understand why free will must be associated >> with a self. I think this is a concept developed by >> the West (no offence please). We always forget that >> there is a cetana that acts who itself is anatta. >> Isn't this a wonderful paradox :). >------------ --------- -- > >Perhaps you or Ken O could explain that for me. I would have thought the concept of free will was always associated with self. For example, the Tilakkhana Sutta seems to be saying if dhammas were self there would be free will (dhammas wouldn't have to be anicca dukkha and anatta). > >Ken H > > > #106501 From: "Mike" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 8:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts and craving. mikenz66 Hi Ken, Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was interesting to see how consistent people here are. You and KenH seem quite (self-)consistent over the years... Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Mike and Ken H > > Wow that is a long time message. Thinking about it, I was wrong in certain aspect about free will. There is no free will because of dhamma condition, we are not free of its clutches. And also there is no free will because we cannot exercise control over dhamma, but there is a choice. No one or self make a choice, dhamma will make a choice because there is chanda and lobha. > > > Cheers > Ken O > > > >Hi Mike and Ken O, > > > >------------ - > ><. . .> > >KH: > > . . . You say there is no self, but you are > >obviously worried about something. > >> > > > > >Mike: > Yes, this is a good question to ponder. But is there an implication that "you" do not have "worry" arise? > >------------ -- > > > >I'm not sure how you're using ""you"" in this case - whether you mean "people with right view" or me, or Ken O or something else. > > > >I would say anyone with wrong understanding must have worries. Only direct right understanding (vipassana) could put an end to those worries, but theoretical right understanding would at least put an end to them in theory. > > > >------------ -------- > >Mike: > I've noticed that these discussions may be anatta, but they do have a certain amount of "continuity" : > > > >In Message #15177, Sun Aug 25, 2002, KenO wrote: > >> KO: I don't understand why free will must be associated > >> with a self. I think this is a concept developed by > >> the West (no offence please). We always forget that > >> there is a cetana that acts who itself is anatta. > >> Isn't this a wonderful paradox :). > >------------ --------- -- > > > >Perhaps you or Ken O could explain that for me. I would have thought the concept of free will was always associated with self. For example, the Tilakkhana Sutta seems to be saying if dhammas were self there would be free will (dhammas wouldn't have to be anicca dukkha and anatta). > > > >Ken H > > #106502 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inaction re bad deeds ashkenn2k Dear Phil You just miss the fun of the exchange on this subject about action vs non-action between me and other DSG members.? > >For me this is a kind of confirmation that the Buddha does teach about action on the conventional level in addition to the paramattha level. >(Maybe that is not in doubt, I forget, but it seems to me some people have denied that...) > >After all, at the paramattha level, there is never inaction for us, even if we (so to speak) abstain from a wrong deed, it is actually the >action of a kusala citta doing so... > >So inaction in the non-doing of the deed in the conventional sense >with action of countless abstaining cittas at the heart of the matter, >something like that? KO:?? Yes there is action, without it we will not be reading email and writing them or listening the dhamma.?? But we must be clear on how is action condition.??There is no one or self that acts?because?dhamma is not self.??And when?there is a self that acts or a person that acts, the?cetana?arises with?miccha ditthi.??So when I kill, that I is miccha ditthi that must?arise first.? Then?it?condition?the next process where the?cetana of killing?arise with?dosa that ends the life faculty of another nama and rupa.? Hope that helps, if not we could discuss further, cheers Ken O #106503 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inaction re bad deeds philofillet Hi Ken O > KO:?? Yes there is action, without it we will not be reading email and writing them or listening the dhamma.?? But we must be clear on how is action condition.??There is no one or self that acts?because?dhamma is not self.??And when?there is a self that acts or a person that acts, the?cetana?arises with?miccha ditthi.??So when I kill, that I is miccha ditthi that must?arise first.? Then?it?condition?the next process where the?cetana of killing?arise with?dosa that ends the life faculty of another nama and rupa.? > > Hope that helps, if not we could discuss further, cheers > Ok, that's pretty clear. How about in the case of abstaining from a wrong deed? The citta that abstains arises with right view that there will be a result to this deed and this conditions in the next process a cetana that abstains, or is the right view together with the cetana that abstains? And does that cetana represent therefore an action even while it is "inaction" in the conventional sense? My Abhidhamma understanding is fading fast, so I hope you can understand my question. Thanks. Metta, Phil #106504 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin I just wonder why meditation is taken such a negative light other than we know if it is?poorly understood.? When it is purposedly?practise, it is full of miccha ditthi.? ?Do you like to tell me why?? One of the reason which I know I always heard it is not natural.?? So do you think in ancient time, it is natural to read book:-).? Give it a?thought,?pse do give me your views.?? Regarding another statement I make.? <> I think the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma has a better definition which I was trying to explain.? Pg 319 para 39 <<(39) What is left, then are concepts, which are of two kinds: a concept of what is made known and a concept as what makes known>> <<(41) But a concept as what makes now is indicated by such as name, naming, etc.? It is of six kinds : a concept of something existent, a concept of something non-existent, a concept of the non-existent with the existent, a concept of the existent with the non-existent, a concept of the existent with the existent, a concept of the non-existent with the non-existent. (42) Therein, when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that exist in an ultimate sense, such as materiality and feeling, this is a concept of something existent,? But when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that does not exist in ultimate sense, such as earth or mountains, this is a concept of something non-existent.? The others should be understood by the combination of both with reference to respectively "one who has the six higher knowledges', 'the sound of a woman', 'eye-consciousness' and 'a king's son'.>> Kind regards Ken O #106505 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inaction re bad deeds ashkenn2k Dear Phil >How about in the case of abstaining from a wrong deed? The citta that abstains arises with right view that there will be a result to this deed and this conditions in the next process a cetana that abstains, or is the right view together with the cetana that abstains? And does that cetana represent therefore an action even while it is "inaction" in the conventional sense? > >My Abhidhamma understanding is fading fast, so I hope you can >understand my question. Thanks. KO:???? Yes for abstaining, it is a cetana that arise with citta?which is?kusala, and with or without right view.??It should be at the moment of abstaining so it should be in the very process.?I am not very sure whether it is the next process because the text tends to point to the?very process.?? Even then, if?it is in the next citta process, it is still abstaining as long as it is cetana that arise with kuasla.? There is no such thing as inaction even in?conventional sense.??Because cetana exist, it is a dhamma.? What we known as conventional action is conditioned by cetana at the paramatha level.??A restraint is an action also.? That?restraint is?known -?virture as?volition.? It must first arise in paramatha level then to conventional level for people like me.? ? There are four meaning to virture? Visud Pg 16, para 17 <> Abhidhamma is impt for the understanding of dhamma.? It is of great help to the development of right view.? I have?immensely profited from Abhidhamma, so I hope it could be of great help to you. ? Feel free to ask any question. Kind regards Ken O #106506 From: "nori" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:02 am Subject: Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Hi Dhamma contemplatives, Just sharing some thoughts.. (though statements are probably made with wrong views..) The observation I wanted to mention is that each day many people die yet the world in regards to the rupa/matter and rupa-sankharas remain unaffected. So for example, one can believe that their 'minds' are somehow entwined with the rupas/rupa-sankharas. Yet, I can be in the same room with them when they die, and the rupas/rupa-sankharas with their loss and passing away remains unaffected, i.e. the world remains unaffected; maybe it has never been affected by their 'minds'; only in the way he 'conceived of it'. And billions of beings each day pass away and the world remains the same, unaffected by their passing away. Thoughts are appreciated. Warm Regards, Nori #106507 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inaction re bad deeds philofillet Hi Ken O Thank you for the explanation. I think it is good for me at this point to just have some contact with Abhidhamma, even if there is no holding hard to what I read now, it is good to keep contact... This next part I wonder about. > There is no such thing as inaction even in?conventional sense.??Because cetana exist, it is a dhamma.? But in the sutta passage the Buddha says he teaches inaction, and by inaction he means not doing a bad deed. So there is inaction in the conventional sense, I think. You see, according to my current appreciation of the Buddha's teaching, there is a certain level of understanding that says JUST DON'T DO IT, whatever that deed is, don't do it. As for the cetanas involved in the process, whether they are conditioned by wrong view of self or not, it doesn't matter. At a certain level of understanding all we should be concerned about is whether we steal that apple or not (for a nice quaint example) it doesn't matter whether what kind of cetanas are conditioning that abstaining, all that matters is abstaining. When I deal with some impulses to harmful deeds, not doing the deed, not performing the conventional behaviour that constitutes "doing the deed" in the eyes of the world, that is all that matters to me for now... OK, Ken, it was nice to ever-so-briefly dip my finger into the pool of Dhamma discussion, the water is still nice, but I don't want to plunge back into it! Thanks! Metta, Phil #106508 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Virtue sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep (& Alex), Thx for dropping by - always great to see you (and other old hands) around.... --- On Tue, 30/3/10, epsteinrob wrote: > >There were many lay non-returners in Buddha's time. Also Citta the householder WAS master of Jhanas. > > > >"Well, venerable sir, to whatever extent I wish**, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. [299] Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhaana?. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the fading away as well of rapture... I enter and dwell in the third jhaana?. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain... I enter and dwell in the fourth jhaana." BB transl. SN 41.8 >What do you think of the "to whatever extent I wish" that Citta keeps repeating? Do you think he is mis-speaking or does this semi-enlightened dude have willful volition in play? ;-) I would think that someone as advanced as he is would avoid making statements as if he can control the jhanas through will, rather than realize that they are merely and solely the product of arising conditions. What's up with that? ..... S: As Ken H has been saying, I think it's a lot easier for simple worldlings like us to read paramattha language without misunderstanding than it is to read Suttas in conventional language! If we think of an expert pianist, we might say that because of his/her skills, he can play whatever he wishes. We all know that actually, in spite of the great skills, each citta is conditioned and unknown. I was listening to an account on the radio about such a pianist who was extremely accomplished and then one day, suddenly, he could no longer use his wrist and hand due to the sudden onset of something like repetitive strain injury. And so with jhana masters, the skill is so accomplished for those like Citta, that they can enter the jhanas at any time - like Sariputta, even when fanning the Buddha. There is complete seclusion from sense objects, sense pleasures. We can say by "willful volition" or use any other terms, but as we know, each moment of cetana (volition) is conditioned by decisive support and other conditions. There is never any Self involved at all. Each moment of metta now conditions further metta in future - it's accumulated. The same applies to any wholesome or unwholesome states. And like with the pianist, conditions change and the Jhana Master, such as Devadatta, can suddently lose those accumulated skills, no matter what wishing takes place. Remember the sutta about the chicken and eggs? Just wishing the chicks to hatch does not have the desired effect without the proper conditions, the incubation in her case. So never a Self to achieve anything or make the khandhas behave according to its wishes. If it were possible, we'd all be Jhana Masters and fully enlightened, wouldn't we? Metta Sarah ** for the Pali afficionados, "....yaavadeva aaka'nkhaami...." ====== #106509 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Hi pt, --- On Tue, 30/3/10, ptaus1 wrote: >I found that post by Sarah about concepts and conditions if you're interested: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 104199 and there's also http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 102068 On re-reading them, I think concepts can condition other dhammas, ... S: just by way of being the object of cittas. It just means that cittas and cetasikas experience them. .... >but concepts are not conditioned or unconditioned because they don't arise and fall. .... S: Because they aren't real. .... >Concepts are really weird... ... S: I think it's the thinking which conjures them up that is "weird" - the imagination is all in the citta and its cohorts, not in the dreams themselves. Just another idea.... Metta Sarah ====== #106510 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Mike, --- On Mon, 29/3/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >>M: "...I see no reason to take any of your pronouncements seriously." >Scott: Thanks, man. You've seen the light! I see no reason to do so either. ;-) Keep discussing with the others though... .... Sarah: Glad to see you guys have been bonding....:-)) Metta Sarah ======= #106511 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Ken H), --- On Mon, 29/3/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >Scott: Yeah, I don't even think it is cynical to suggest that any group of people - men, anyway ;-) is going to need all sorts of rules because of all the nonsense they'll get up to otherwise. Or some of them, anyway. What about those for whom the Path had arisen? ... Sarah: The rules were laid down, one by one as a need arose, for those who hadn't seen the light, as Sukin mentioned .... >Scott:....Let's say, for the sake of argument, that one *should* express gratitude for the Buddha and the Dhamma - an exhortation, as you suggest, to engender a sense of urgency. ... Sarah: I think that as soon as we introduce such *shoulds*, we're losing the plot..... Lobha, wishing for results again.... .... >Now, as for myself, I light a candle at the base of a small statue of the Buddha each night, and have done for almost 6 years since an interest in the Dhamma arose. This isn't some sort of culturally induced habit (which I think you are describing above). I don't consider myself a religious person. It wasn't ever a part of my 'culture' prior to having an interest in the Dhamma. No one told me I should do it. I don't believe that the doing of it does anything just because. .... Sarah: So this comes very naturally for you - it's not because you think you *should* do it. You've often referred to stupas, relics and so on. When I'm at the Holy Places, I just do what I feel inclined to do at the time. No one has ever set any rule or suggested otherwise. ... >I think that for many, many nights the act of lighting this candle is habitual, without kusala. However, once in a long while, I do notice that an appreciation of the Buddha and the Dhamma does seem to swell momentarily. What do you think the connection is between the lighting of the candle at the base of the Buddha statue and the very infrequent arising of kusala? ... Sarah: Again, it'll just depend on conditions. Nina remembers a time ages ago when I was in tears in the Temple of the Tooth in Kandy because it was so hot, crowded and everyone was pushing and shoving to get to the front. I hated it at the time! Other times, like Ken H found, a statue, a relic, a laying of the garland, may be a condition for a lot of respect or wise reflection on the Buddha's virtues. In the end, just visible object like any other time - no expectations! Nina also remembers how when I was young I used to religiously pay respects in front of a statue every night before going to bed. I don't do this now, but anything is fine by me. It's the understanding that counts. .... >....do you suggest that one *should* go to relic shrines and offer a garland of flowers? So-called 'standard DSG' would suggest that you are incorrect to suggest that there are necessarily any more conditions for kusala at a relic shrine than anywhere else. .... Sarah: And if one went again in order to have more kusala, that would just be attachment, even silabbataparamasa depending... It doesn't mean one doesn't notice when kusala arises, however, as Ken did. You were having a discussion with Ken O about a Vism passage - a "should" reciting passage. Instead of reading/translating it as "should recite", it can be read as may be recited. Again, it's the understanding of conditioned dhammas that is important. ... >Scott: ...If there is an emerging message that, while dhammas are anatta, there are still some *shoulds* that are relevant (again leaving aside the whole samatha-bhaavanaa thing) then I'd like to know more about what this means. ... Sarah: No relevant *shoulds* that I know of:-) And that is not leaving aside "the whole samatha-bhaavanaa thing" or any other dhamma.... The dhamma is about understanding conditioned realities as anatta after all, not about attempting to make them behave in any way whatsoever... Anyway, you guys don't need my input, but then no *shoulds* about who *should* join in or not, right:-)) Metta Sarah ====== #106512 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inaction re bad deeds ashkenn2k Dear Phil >But in the sutta passage the Buddha says he teaches inaction, and by inaction he means not doing a bad deed. So there is inaction in the conventional sense, I think. You see, according to my current appreciation of the Buddha's teaching, there is a certain level of understanding that says JUST DON'T DO IT, whatever that deed is, don't do it. As for the cetanas involved in the process, whether they are conditioned by wrong view of self or not, it doesn't matter. >At a certain level of understanding all we should be concerned about is whether we steal that apple or not (for a nice quaint example) it doesn't matter whether what kind of cetanas are conditioning that abstaining, all that matters is abstaining. When I deal with some impulses to harmful deeds, not doing the deed, not performing the conventional behaviour that constitutes "doing the deed" in the eyes of the world, that is all that matters to me for now... > >OK, Ken, it was nice to ever-so-briefly dip my finger into the pool of Dhamma discussion, the water is still nice, but I don't want to plunge back into it! KO: The non-action is translated from Pali word akiriyaya. I am not good in Pali. After some searches, I observed that akiriaya is tends to be used in the negative sense like akiriayaaya vaada which means the theory that a believe there is no kamma results in our actions. Or akirayaditthi which there is no kamma. Both are annahilistic point of view. So when the term akiriyaaya is not about an action that has no kamma as this would be against Buddhist teaching, it is meant in my humble opinion that to refrain from actions that cause the rise of unwholesome states. So the word use in this context is not about no action or inaction, is about restraint. In fact the one sutta above this (Verañjasuttam.), there is a Brahim asked whether Buddha teaches non-doing (akiriayaaya vaado), Buddha use the same stock formulae of non-doing action for unwholesome states. <> There are four types of virture which I have written earlier, one of them is virture by restraint which I felt may be relevant to your statement >. There are five types of virture by restaint, by rules of the community, by mindfulness, by knowledge, by patience and by energy. So abstaining is not just purely bodily or speech actions, it also deal with the mental which is describe in the suttas also. <> Yes by abstaining, IMHO, you are performing a kusala action. Buddha does tell people to develop kusala. So if you feel that this suit you please continue to do so. As what you said, please dont be too concern about whether there is wrong view of self or not, or be bother about others opinion. Because I felt, when the time that you wish to know more about this, you will ask. For now, it is the kusala action that matters. In the last week, I have started a discussion with Alex on the studying the factors of development of jhanas which is the email title also. In these emails, we talk about virtue and restraint by mindfulness (Restraint of sense faculties). If you have time, do read it and ask questions. But if you like to study just purely on Virtue, I am most happy to discuss with you. Kind regards Ken O #106513 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 6:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations farrellkevin80 To Nori, "The world" is just a concept. kevin The Lost Trailers: http://www.vevo.com/watch/the-lost-trailers/country-folks/USBVA0900012 ________________________________ From: nori To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 6:02:29 AM Subject: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations Hi Dhamma contemplatives, Just sharing some thoughts.. (though statements are probably made with wrong views..) The observation I wanted to mention is that each day many people die yet the world in regards to the rupa/matter and rupa-sankharas remain unaffected. So for example, one can believe that their 'minds' are somehow entwined with the rupas/rupa-sankhara s. Yet, I can be in the same room with them when they die, and the rupas/rupa-sankhara s with their loss and passing away remains unaffected, i.e. the world remains unaffected; maybe it has never been affected by their 'minds'; only in the way he 'conceived of it'. And billions of beings each day pass away and the world remains the same, unaffected by their passing away. Thoughts are appreciated. Warm Regards, Nori #106514 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inaction re bad deeds philofillet Hi Ken O Thank you for your response. I read it with appreciation. > In the last week, I have started a discussion with Alex on the studying the factors of development of jhanas which is the email title also. In these emails, we talk about virtue and restraint by mindfulness (Restraint of sense faculties). If you have time, do read it and ask questions. But if you like to study just purely on Virtue, I am most happy to discuss with you. Thank you, Ken. The day will come when conditions are right for disucssion of deep Dhamma, if they don't come it will be very unfortunate for me - as one of the conditions of wisdom, we have Dhamma discussion with respected friends like I find at DSG. But other conditions have me focussed on outer pursuits (some more kusala than others, of course, most less kusala) and internet time is used for social networking I'm doing in Japanese. For now, my appreciation of the Dhamma is very conventional, I observe my behaviour in conventional terms. But some day I will discuss deep Dhamma again. Talk to you again in a few months (?) Metta, Phil #106515 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 2:20 am Subject: Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, KenO, Kevin, Howard, All, >sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep (& Alex), > ..... >S: As Ken H has been saying, I think it's a lot easier for simple >worldlings like us to read paramattha language without >misunderstanding than it is to read Suttas in conventional language! Can "paramattha language", being language made by the mind, be non-conceptual and true? Do little children who were not taught concepts yet perceive paramattha dhamma? How can they, being unburdened with clumsy concepts, not perceive the omni-present ultimate realities? What is a concept? Something that is made known by the mind's conceptualizing activity? The presence of cakkhu-pasada (and other senses) is known by the mind. For example ear-sense cannot know eye-sense. If labels, conventions and thoughts are concepts, then why aren't 5 sense pasada-rupa concepts as well? Isn't any word (be it about dhamma or pannati) just a linquistic conception, Vijjamana pannatti ? Isn't all the talk about conditionality, 89/121 dhammas, etc just another conceptual system? Any word is a linguistic pointer. Analysing things into parts (that generally do not exist by themselves), is as much mental activity as making wholes out of parts (synthesis). Both are mental activities of deduction and induction. I have read an interesting lecture where the famous teacher has said something like: "don't be aware of sound or color, as this leads only to concentration. Be aware of hearing or seeing, this will lead to vipassana instead." and "in vipassana you discern ever changing namarupa rather than static conceptual objects created by the mind". Well, it leads to certain questions: a) What is the difference between sound & color vs rupa (as in namarupa)? b) Can there be an experience of sound *without* hearing, or color *without* seeing? No! c) Can there be an experience that doesn't ever change? No. The cakkhupasada + color + light + attention = eye-consciousness is analytical statement, and being analytical it is a product of the mind working in analytical mode. As an experience you cannot divide color from seeing. Isn't "cakkhupasada + color + light + attention = eye-consciousness" an analytically produced truth? None of these can be experienced separately! They cannot physically be taken apart and put into different test-tubes. Experienced processes co-arise in clusters. Division is an interpretation of the mind. The "eye-pasada + color + light + attention = eye-consciousness" is a mental analysis of experience. The whole is not always merely a sum of its parts. For example "A car" is not a sum of little cars. Its parts are not mini-cars that fulfill the function of the Car. It is not a matter of many little cars that move at little speed being added together to make a big car that can carry passengers at a fast speed. For example water, H20, (liquid). Water is not a mere sum of hydrogen (gas) and oxygen (gas). It is emergent property that has DIFFERENT property from its chemical parts. A spoon and fork are both material objects, but they have different functions even though they are both rupas that is seen by the eye, felt by the body sense and labeled by the mind. So the whole, not being located in its parts, DOES exist and perform functions not present in its parts. Thus saying that wholes do not really exist, is metaphysics that goes contrary to experience. Reading over complex suttas such as MN#1, Ditthi-Samyutta SN24, and Avyakata-samyutta SN44 , I've come to these conclusions: What is more important is to see WHAT the mind is doing as in HOW it is relating to sense-data. Buddha has taught a way out of suffering with a very interesting and appropriate parable of a person being shot with an arrow. The healing lies in pulling the arrow out, and treating the wound (not the arrow, or the shooter(s)). Spending time to study the "who/what shot me and out of how many elements it is made of" is mis-directed effort that wastes critical time. Whether "All is unity" or "All is multiplicity" (both wrong views), is irrelevant to salvation and what needs to be done now. In MN1 I believe that the Buddha was making a similar point. Focus on cessation of suffering by removing craving toward external and internal world. If I may be very revolutionary, I understand that the attention should NOT be put on the object or the "observer" (vinnana) but in the space betwen the "observer and the observed". Hindrances lie in sankhara khandha not vinnana or external namarupa. The views appear because on has preference (greed, craving, personal liking) of something and argues accordingly. For example a materialist, who prefers matter, will have a view based on matter. An idealist, who prefers the mind, will have a view based on idealism. Some prefer unity, so they argue and build logical justifications justifying their theory of unity. Some prefer pluralism, so they argue and build logical justifications justifying their theory of pluralism. This becomes a possession of mine, as in "mine ideas, my understanding" - a sakkayaditthi! They both have personal preference toward something, which they base their theories on, and to which they cling as their personal possessions. "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. ...From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.048.than.html Now, some say that D.O. is a middle-way ontology of how the world out there is - it is neither statically existent nor statically non-existent. However in AN3.61 it says that DO in arising mode is the truth of suffering. DO in cessation mode is cessation of suffering (3rd NT). IMHO, Best wishes, Alex #106516 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality farrellkevin80 Dear Alex, Alex: "Can "paramattha language", being language made by the mind, be non-conceptual and true? Do little children who were not taught concepts yet perceive paramattha dhamma? How can they, being unburdened with clumsy concepts, not perceive the omni-present ultimate realities? What is a concept? Something that is made known by the mind's conceptualizing activity? " Kevin: Hi Alex. It is a shame that you have not read the short booklet about Concepts and Realities that I suggested yet. Had you done so, you would have benefited and been able to understand the matter. Unfortunately, it looks like you don't even want to understand what your opponents are putting forth, yet you still wish to argue with them. Indeed that is unfortunate. Kevin #106517 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > > > Dear Alex, > > > Alex: > > > "Can "paramattha language", being language made by the mind, be non-conceptual and true? Do little children who were not taught concepts yet perceive paramattha dhamma? How can they, being unburdened with clumsy concepts, not perceive the omni-present ultimate realities? > > What is a concept? Something that is made known by the mind's conceptualizing activity? " > > > Kevin: Hi Alex. It is a shame that you have not read the short booklet about Concepts and Realities that I suggested yet. Had you done so, you would have benefited and been able to understand the matter. Unfortunately, it looks like you don't even want to understand what your opponents are putting forth, yet you still wish to argue with them. Indeed that is unfortunate. > > > Kevin Dear Kevin, all, I have been busy for few days and didn't have the chance to read that booklet fully. I've read some parts of it. But I have disagreements on some basic things. Sure we can take apart reality in 18 dhatus, 12 ayatanas, 5 aggregates, in citta-cetasika-rupa-nibbana, etc. However, many of these things are can be analytically dissected only abstractly. Analysis is an activity of the mind, just like synthesis. So both are conceptual in a way. "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html The satipatthana sutta itself doesn't talk about concepts vs realities. It proposes many practices that would fall into "concepts" according to KS. The Buddha found nothing wrong with such satipatthana as maranasati, 4 postures, 32 bodyparts, anapanasati, etc. With metta, Alex #106518 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:16 pm Subject: Depending on Contact! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Real Peace is without urge for Pleasant Feeling! The Blessed Buddha once explained this to some gravely sick Bhikkhus: A Bhikkhu should spend his time acutely aware & clearly comprehending... This is our instruction to you! While a Bhikkhu lives in this way, aware and clearly comprehending, enthusiastic, keen, and determined, if there arises in him a pleasant feeling, then he understands this: There has arisen in me an event of pleasant feeling. Now that is dependent, it is not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on this sense-contact! But all contact is impermanent, passing, conditioned, constructed and dependently arisen... So when this pleasant feeling has arisen in dependence on sense-contact, that indeed is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, how could it ever then itself be lasting and permanent? He dwells in this way always contemplating this impermanence of contact and also of pleasant feeling, and he considers the inevitable vanishing, fading away, and total ceasing, that entails relinquishment of all constructions. While he reflects thus, then the underlying tendency to lust for contact and pleasant feeling is gradually reduced. This deep craving fades way and is finally eliminated... He understands: With the breakup of this body, at the exhaustion of this fragile life, whatever feeling, and all that is felt, whether pain or pleasure, neither being hankered after, nor clung to, will cool down right there... Sense Organ + Sense Object + Sense Consciousness = Sense-Contact Visibility of Eye + Visible Form + Visual Consciousness = Eye-Contact Ear Sensitivity + Sound + Auditory Consciousness = Ear-Contact Nose Sensitivity + Smell + Olfactory Consciousness = Nose-Contact Tongue Sensitivity + Taste + Gustatory Consciousness = Tongue-Contact Skin Sensitivity + Touch Object + Tactile Consciousness = Body-Contact Mind Receptivity + Thought + Mental Consciousness = Mental-Contact Contact is not the outer physical impact, but a neural & mental construction! The Buddha on Contact (Phassa ): Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises. The coming-together of these three phenomena, is sense-contact. MN 18 For those overcome by contact, flowing along in the stream of becoming, following a miserable path, the ending of fetters is quite far away. While those, who comprehend contact, delighting in stilling through insight, they, by breaking through contact, free from craving, are totally unbound! Sn 736-7 Subduing desire for both the inner and the outer, comprehending contact, with no greed. Doing nothing, which he himself would rebuke himself for, the enlightened person doesn't cling to what is seen, or to what is heard! Sn 778 Not attaching to the future, without sorrow over the past, he constructs no wrong 'ego-self-I-me' view fancying mere contact as 'my' experience. Sn 851 Pleasure, pain and indifference all have their source in sense-contact. When this sense-contact is absent, these affective states are also absent. The idea of appearing & disappearing, existence & non-existence, and any event of becoming & non-becoming also emerges from this same contact! Sn 870 What is the cause of sense-contact? From what arises so much clinging? By the absence of what, is there no selfish possessiveness or attachment? By the disappearance of what, does sense-contact, not make contact? Sn 871 Sense-contact depends on mentality and materiality: Name-and-Form . Clinging possessiveness has its source in longing for & wanting something! When not longing for anything, then there is no egoistic possessiveness... By the vanishing of formed objects, sense-contact cannot make contact! Sn 872 When a Bhikkhu is touched by bodily painful contact, he does not bemoan. He wouldn't long for coming into another state, or tremble at any terror! Sn 923 Pleasant Feeling induces Greed and Attraction... Painful Feeling produces Hate and Aversion... Neither-painful-nor-pleasant = neutral Feeling, causes neglect and generates Ignorance thereby! <..> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [214] section 36: Feeling. Vedana. The Sick-Ward. 8. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106519 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inaction re bad deeds ashkenn2k Dear Phil thats good. ?I awaits that day.? Cheers kind regards Ken O #106520 From: "nori" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Hi Kevin, What does a cheesy country video with bikini girls have anything to do with this? Nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > To Nori, > > "The world" is just a concept. > > kevin > > The Lost Trailers: > > > http://www.vevo.com/watch/the-lost-trailers/country-folks/USBVA0900012 > #106521 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations farrellkevin80 Hi Nori, You wrote: ________________________________ Nore: Hi Kevin, What does a cheesy country video with bikini girls have anything to do with this? Nori Kevin: Hi Nore. It was in my signature. Sorry if there was any confusion about that. But "cheesy"? Come on : z Kev The Lost Trailers: http://www.vevo.com/watch/the-lost-trailers/country-folks/USBVA0900012 ________________________________ #106522 From: "nori" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 4:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta norakat147 Hi Nina, Thank you again for your comments. Nori #106523 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations mikenz66 Hi Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Kevin: Hi Nore. It was in my signature. Sorry if there was any confusion about that. > > But "cheesy"? Come on : z Mike: Since that site seems to reject foreigners it's hard for many of us to judge the cheeziness (or lack thereof...) :-] Metta Mike #106524 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 5:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality mikenz66 Alex, Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Kevin: Hi Alex. It is a shame that you have not read the short booklet about Concepts and Realities that I suggested yet. Had you done so, you would have benefited and been able to understand the matter. Unfortunately, it looks like you don't even want to understand what your opponents are putting forth, yet you still wish to argue with them. Indeed that is unfortunate. Mike: The subject mater in http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm is helpful, but the translation and/or editing renders some of it exremely difficult to understand. Mike: For example, this passage, which is relevant to the current discussion: ------------------------------- AS: We read in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha: Acariya Anuruddha: All such different things, although they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of thought in the form of shadows of ultimate things. They are called pannatti be cause they are thought of, reckoned, understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of pannatti is so called because it is made known. As it makes known, it is described as name concept, name, name-made. ------------------------------ Mike: Mixes together the end of VIII-30 and the first sentence of VIII-31. I suggest reading pages 325-328 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary, in Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, where you can see the entire passage in context. If you don't have a copy, this book is available in full online: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+compre\ hensive+manual+of+abhidhamma&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=rlOVSZfeNJDMlQTussnmCQ#v=onepage&q=\ &f=false [Not sure if that link will survive Yahoo...] Mike: VIII-31 discusses how concepts can be pointing to reality, or not. In part, it says: ------------- Acariya Anuruddha: As, for instance, when it makes known what really exists in the ultimate sense by a term such as "matter", "feeling", and so forth, it is called a (direct) concept of the real. Acariya Anuruddha: When it makes known what does not really exist in the ultimate sense by a term such as "land", "mountain", and so forth, it is called a (direct) concept of the unreal. --------------- Metta Mike #106525 From: Vince Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality cerovzt@... Dear Alex, you wrote: > Well, it leads to certain questions: > a) What is the difference between sound & color vs rupa (as in namarupa)? > b) Can there be an experience of sound *without* hearing, or color *without* seeing? No! in fact, yes. Synesthesic people do that. There is a list of synesthesias, although still partial: http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/html/types.htm about what you says later: > "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that > one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not > disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from > another, to delineate the difference among them."" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html this is really very interesting and forces to think again. On my side, I rest my search in D.O: consciousness and nama&rupa arises co-dependently in the here and now. I agree the Abhidhamma realities are also conceptual in one way. I mean, they become non-conceptual when we understand their existence as devoid of individual substance. However, when we realize the true nature of the experience, then this also include the non-substantiality of the "I" who knows, and then there is only anatta and these words vanish. These words only can reappear in order to realize anatta again. This is the flux of the becoming while we are alive and we are not arhants. I understand it doesn't mean these realities and the -self are an hallucination, because we only can realize anatta by means what is atta, and therefore we cannot affirm or deny them. So at least I understand that we are only able to say: to be alive means that there is this becoming in the here and now: such thing arise, such thing falls. Therefore anatta should be realized with that. Here is where at least I found the sense and the help of Abbhidhamma as a complementary teaching of D.O. best, Vince. #106526 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and Practice for PT. was Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 201 sukinderpal Hi Pt, I almost forgot about this post. > > > 1. Right understanding conditions an interest in the Dhamma. > > 2. This interest manifests at some point as hearing, reading and > > discussing the Dhamma. > > 3. Right understanding at the intellectual level leads to right > > practice and wrong understanding to wrong practice. > > > > Would you like to comment on these? > > On a moment to moment basis, it all sounds good. Though I have to > admit I am now generally confused about the mechanics of concepts, how > they are created, recalled and thought about, and how do they then > influence dhammas, so perhaps you can say a bit more about your point > 3 and how you understand it in that light. > I don't know about the mechanics of concepts but I'll try to say more about point 3 and speculate some about the role of concept here. ;-) Pariyatti according to my understanding, is more like a correct attitude of mind with regard to one's experience than say, the knowledge that we acquire about the Dhamma. When we hear such things as that there is seeing now, hearing now, feeling now and so on, although this also tells us that in principle, these are conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta, the main purpose is to draw our attention to the fact of there being just the kind of realities arising and falling away right at this very moment. Indeed, they begin to be truly meaningful only when there is any level of right attention, otherwise they likely remain an abstraction and the object of wrong attention. Before understanding the Dhamma, seeing, hearing and such is followed by ignorance, attachment or aversion and sometimes wrong view. The first time that understanding happens this is because instead of wrong view, a level of right view arises. But I don't think that this is a matter simply of some new idea coming in to correct an old one. There is the connection between suttamaya panna, cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna and the first two of these is covered by the concept of pariyatti and the last corresponds to patipatti. And what I'm about to describe may be more cintamaya panna than suttamaya panna, so it may be that something else happens before this and already some of what constitutes 'correction of view' is taking place at the stage. Anyway here is what I believe may be going on at some point: Some 'sign', not so much that of nimita of a reality which is what patipatti takes, but perhaps that of concept but one which is not yet some 'thing', is the object of this level of panna. I am guessing that before the details are carved out to make a distinguishable 'thing' out of the experience, this level of panna comes in to see the difference from when the 'thing' becomes the object of the citta. For example, when there is understanding which sees that the computer screen is concept, this is due to the attention having been drawn to some sign 'about' visible object with the understanding of the difference between this and the 'thing' which we later label computer screen. Following this then of course, words are formed and later papanca may also come in. But the understanding *has* arisen and accumulated, regardless of whether wrong view arises afterwards. I know this is speculation, and I'm not attaching any importance to it myself, but the point is to show a distinction which I believe is there, but also a similarity which I think is very important. The movement from pariyatti to patipatti has nothing to do with any intermediary such as "I should practice or I should attend to the present moment ", after all this may in fact reflect a failure at seeing the distinction between reality and concept, the kind I've described above and which pariyatti must necessarily make. What I see is that the accumulated tendency to attend to the present moment, initially with concept as object and later with characteristic of a reality, is the line which connects the two levels of understanding. This is reflected again in the idea of saccannana, kiccannana and katannana. Saccannana is firm intellectual understanding which sees that the object of understanding must be the reality arising and falling away through one of the six doorways, *now*. This kind of understanding is not arrived at by reasoning, but by virtue of understanding not only of pariyatti level developed over a long period of time, but also must be due to having much satipatthana as well. Otherwise I don't think the kind of confidence / conviction can ever be accumulated. What must also be involved here then, is repeated recognition of papanca arisen with thoughts directed at the past, the future and also the "present". So while one may see the wrong in thinking in terms of practice in the future, one must also come to recognize that any thought to direct the mind to a chosen object now, is also wrong. Hope this has a helped. Metta, Sukinder #106527 From: Vince Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations cerovzt@... nori wrote: > The observation I wanted to mention is that each day many people > die yet the world in regards to the rupa/matter and rupa-sankharas > remain unaffected. I don't think rupa remains unaffected. Other people will cry their lose and their tears are also rupa. > So for example, one can believe that their 'minds' are somehow > entwined with the rupas/rupa-sankharas. Yet, I can be in the same > room with them when they die, and the rupas/rupa-sankharas with > their loss and passing away remains unaffected, i.e. the world > remains unaffected; maybe it has never been affected by their > 'minds'; only in the way he 'conceived of it'. affection or unaffection in deep are not options but a manifestation of understanding. In front a being who experience dukkha, compassion arise because there is understanding in different degree. Affection towards what can be affected it's just another way to understand. As when we apply listening towards the sound. Dissociate oneself of the sufferings of other beings can cause some detachment and then understanding but never enough to unveil the nature of reality, because final nature of reality is made of friendliness and brotherhood. There is not a cause for this; this is in this way. For this reason we are deluded now. I think so. best, Vince. #106528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 7:43 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (320, 20) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Five bondages of the mind. Herein, brethren, when a brother has not got rid of the passion for sense-desires, of desire, fondness, thirst, fever, craving for them, he being thus, his mind does not incline towards ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion. In the same way, when a brother has not got rid of the passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, craving for his own person, or again for external objects, he being thus, his mind does not incline towards ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion. Fourthly, if a brother have eaten as much as his stomach can hold, and then abides given over to the ease of repose, of turning from this side to that, of sloth . . . and, fifthly, if a brother have adopted the religious life with the aspiration of belonging to some one or other of the deva-groups, thinking: -- 'By these rules or by these rites or by these austerities or by this religious life I shall become a greater, or a lesser deva; he being thus, his mind does not incline towards ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion. ---------- N: The co states that the bondages grasp the citta tightly, just as tightly as by clinching one?s fist. As to kaama, sense desire, this stands for the base, the object of sense desire (vatthu-kaama), and also for the defilement of sense desire (kilesa-kaama). He has desire for his own body or personality and for external materiality. The Tiika: his own body born of impurity (karaja kaayo) or personality (attabhaava). As to external materiality: the body of someone else, or materiality that is dead matter (anindriya baddha). He eats as much as his stomach can hold, so that he has a full stomach (udarapuura.m), the co explains. The co. elaborates how he is attached to bed and seat and likes to roll about from side to side. He is attached to torpor, namely to sleep (niddaa). He has adopted the divine life (brahmacariya), with abstinence from sexual intercourse. He aspires to become a deva, and the Tiika adds: he aspires because of clinging. It states that these five bondages are distinguishing marks of lobha. --------- N: Not only monks but also laypeople should consider these five bondages. Vatthu-kaama, the base or object of sensuous desire and kilesa-kaama, the defilement of sensuous desire, are not mere words, they occur in daily life. When we see a beautiful flower, the visible object is a base of clinging, and our attachment to this object is kilesa-kaama. We are inclined to cling to our own body and to external ruupas outside such as all the sense objects, we like food and sleep. We are not inclined ?towards ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion?. However, even attachment can and should be object of right understanding and awareness. When one performs kusala, this may be motivated by clinging to result, such as a happy rebirth. However, even life in a deva-plane does not last, and after this lifespan is over one may be reborn in an unhappy plane. All kinds of kusala can be performed with the aim to have less defilements and then they support right understanding of vipassanaa. At the moment of right awareness and right understanding there are ardour, devotion, perseverance, exertion. ---------- Nina. #106529 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Scott, pt & all, --- On Mon, 29/3/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >>KO:?? There bounds?be?monk?even Buddha has?desribed monks who are just?look like monks in appearance.? But we cannot assume that rules dont have efficacy.?? They become strong hetupaccaya when faith arises to believe in the Buddha dhamma that such rules are for the restraint, are for eradication of unprofitable.??This is very clear in Visud.??? >Scott: In this small paragraph I count 15 little triangles with question marks inside them. Is this an acid flashback, a font problem on my computer, or what? In other words, god, I hope you see them too... .... S: Not an acid flashback, don't worry! Thx to pt for all his patient explanations. Obviously we can't all change the font everytime we read a different message, so the simplest solution would be for Ken O and anyone else whose messages end up like this habitually to check they have the unicode setting before sending mail. I understand from pt that it sometimes changes, so this means regular checking for those folk. Ken O, often your posts come out fine, so I'm sure you're working on this and you can contact pt off-list if you need further assistance. Easier than understanding all the complexities of the Vis.:-) Perhaps we can all adopt unicode as the 'base currency' and we can perhaps add a note on this in the Guidelines (if pt recommends it - we can chat about this off-list if you like, pt) for new members to see on arrival too. This simply means (on my computer), clicking on 'view' in the top left corner, next to 'file' and 'edit', then clicking on 'encoding', then on 'unicode'. Meanwhile, don't worry if the message still sometimes comes out a jumble - we're used to deciphering riddles here:-)) Metta Sarah ======= #106530 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & Scott, --- On Tue, 30/3/10, kenhowardau wrote: Scott:> > ..... So-called 'standard DSG' would suggest that you are incorrect to suggest that there are necessarily any more conditions for kusala at a relic shrine than anywhere else. I'd be interested if this view is emerging. It would reflect some sort of shift in understanding things. ------------ --------- -------- K:> It's not a shift in understanding so much as a remembering of what I have been told here at DSG. To understand the benefits of kusala means to feel an urgent need for kusala right now. .... Sarah: Hmm, I see a difference between "an urgent need" and an understanding of the benefit of kusala when it arises. I think that as soon as there's the idea (however subtle) of trying to have it arise in anyway, that that's bound to be lobha. .... K:> If there is someone with you right now, show that person some kindness or generosity. If there is no other person that's unfortunate, but maybe there is some other way you can have kusala consciousness now. ... Sarah: Again, the distinction between showing kindness, helping those around one naturally and wishing to have metta, trying to have metta because one knows it's kusala. When we understand more about its characteristic and quality, it arises more and more without having to think about it in advance. This is why the development of all kinds of kusala comes back to understanding dhammas, not to trying to have more kusala. ... >K: I know I am on dangerous ground here, but I still think the presence of a Buddha relic offers certain conditions for [kusala] respect-paying that are not found elsewhere. ... Sarah: Back to the moment and the citta now or at such a time. For some accumulations, the sight of even the Buddha was not even a condition for kusala respect. Again, I think it's the understanding of dhammas that's important. ------------ --------- <. . .> Scott: >> Far from all those 'idyllic conditions' I've somehow found a great affinity with many of the ways the Dhamma is explained by Kh. Sujin. If there is an emerging message that, while dhammas are anatta, there are still some *shoulds* that are relevant (again leaving aside the whole samatha-bhaavanaa thing) then I'd like to know more about what this means. .... Sarah: And I wouldn't leave aside 'the whole samatha-bhavana thing' as I mentioned yesterday in this connection either. ------------ --------- K:> No, I think it's always the same 'no-control' message. There just has to be right understanding. To the extent that there is right understanding, we find that the wording of the message (shoulds or no shoulds) doesn't matter so much. And, conversely, no matter how carefully someone like K Sujin might put the Dhamma into words, if there is no understanding (of anatta) the meaning is lost. ... Sarah: Beautifully put:-)) I've appreciated many of your other gems inc. the one about the worldling being a citta at this moment. Metta Sarah ========= #106531 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (& Ken O), Enjoying your discussion... --- On Tue, 30/3/10, sukinderpal wrote: Sukin: >Of course you do warn these people about the need for panna in order that the practice be right. I however, don’t think that even this is the correct approach. For me when panna arises, it arises to *understand* and not to follow any prescribed practice or method. And so when panna does not arise, whatever is written in the Texts are just descriptions of different realities and conditions. It is with the arising of miccha ditthi, that these descriptions are taken for methods to follow. .... Sarah: I think this is a neat summary of the difference in our understandings with Ken O's view (that of the renegade dinosaur:-)). Whatever we read, in whichever text, is a description of dhammas as explained by the Buddha, for panna to understand. I hope you'll both continue your helpful discussion. Metta Sarah ===== #106532 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah It is not I am a renegade, it is because?DSG has the assumptions that convention?actions are view with skeptism and is related to?miccha ditthi,?and from there it came up with some?wrong assumptions which are not in line with tipitaka.?? Like no action etc, i given a list of point below..? Visud are full of?methods and even in other commentaries and Abhidhamma texts.??If you think I am?wrong, you are most welcome to join this discussion.? So you dont think reading is a method.? Anyway,?a method is just a repeated behaviour.? There is nothing wrong about a behaviour, it is the accompany cetasikas that make a?behaviour to be wrong.?? I summarise the points there so we could discuss on any of the points. not just you, anyone of the dinosaurs are most welcome to join in, the more the merrier. a.??? No action - is incorrect, it should be no one that acts.? If there is no action, why do DSG pple listens and read dhamma.? b.??? All convention action is wrong - ?that is incorrect.??? There is nothing wrong with convention action, it is the aksuala that follow is the wrongness.? If convention actions are wrong, then all our actions like reading a book or listening a dhamma is wrong. c.??? No choice - is incorrect, there is chanda, which is condition to arise. d.??? Meditation?is wrong?- that is incorrect.? Is only wrong if it accompany by aksuala and not the meditation itself. e.??? No methods - that is incorrect, there are many of them in Visud.? f.??? Naturally - is also incorrect, what is natural to one person may not be natural to another.? This another point i have yet discuss with any DSGs.? Maybe you will to like to discuss with me.? It should just conditions or inclinations?and not natural. DSG is absolutely right to say that all are conditions or Dhamma are conditions.? Panna is also absolutely?the most important. ?But the development of?the understanding dhamma?should not just seen in the light of panna alone and at the moment of paramatha dhamma.? Bc panna dont interest, dont act, dont strive.? And at paramatha level, one cannot see words and listen to words in one door way.? ? Words are conventional. So you like to discuss.? Cheers Kind regards Ken O #106533 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 10:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Hi Colette (& Scott), --- On Mon, 29/3/10, colette wrote: >Scott, who are these melevolent beings called THE MEDITATORS? Doesn't that name seem more like an upcoming Hollyweird movie that'll sure to be the new blockbuster Summer best seller for the movie studios? Are you, Scott, insinuating that I'm one of those people, THE MEDITATORS? ;-) ... Sarah: That was funny, I thought. Hope Scott did too! What's in a word? The Buddha used common terms and gave them special meanings. He referred to yogis, but he described a yogi being anyone who knows how to develop understanding, anyone who's on the path. And if we consider bhavana, mental development or meditation, then anyone who develops bhavana is a meditator in its true meaning. So, you're in good company, Colette, don't worry:-)). Metta Sarah ======= #106534 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Maybe more later, but I'm not sure you're listening to what we say. Like Ken H and Sukin, I think you sometimes/often misunderstand the points being made by them/us which puts you in danger of losing your dinosaur status altogether - I thought a "renegade dinosaur" was a diplomatic way of putting it:-)). I also disagree with your comments to Alex that: 1. # 106340, "All development starts by having faith in the dhamma so does virtue." 2. # 106339, "In order to develop consciousness, first one must establish virtue and not establish concentration." I don't mind what you quote, but it's important to appreciate that it is always the understanding of dhammas that comes first on the Path. Enjoying all your lively discussions with others - actually, I much prefer reading those discussions to participating in them when you're in war-mongering mode:-). Metta Sarah --- On Sun, 4/4/10, Ken O wrote: >It is not I am a renegade.... #106535 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Oh, Ok, I'll play....briefly now: --- On Sun, 4/4/10, Ken O wrote: >I summarise the points there so we could discuss on any of the points. not just you, anyone of the dinosaurs are most welcome to join in, the more the merrier. >a.??? No action - is incorrect, it should be no one that acts.? If there is no action, why do DSG pple listens and read dhamma.? ... S: Straw Man argument. What is being stressed is that there are only dhammas - only cittas, cetasikas and rupas. This is also true when we conventionally refer to listening and reading dhammas. In the truest sense, when the Buddha refers to suta-maya panna, citta-maya panna and bhavana-maya panna, it is not to any activities, but to panna that is being referred to. ... >b.??? All convention action is wrong - ?that is incorrect.??? There is nothing wrong with convention action, it is the aksuala that follow is the wrongness.? If convention actions are wrong, then all our actions like reading a book or listening a dhamma is wrong. ... S: Another straw man argument. No one has said that "all convention(al) action is wrong". Again, there are just dhammas now, no matter what we refer to in terms of concepts. Again, I believe you've been missing the point. .... >c.??? No choice - is incorrect, there is chanda, which is condition to arise. ... S: And whether chanda arises or not has nothing to do with any "choice". ... >d.??? Meditation?is wrong?- that is incorrect.? Is only wrong if it ac company by aksuala and not the meditation itself. .... S: Moments of right view are kusala and moments of wrong view are akusala. When there is any idea of control or choice in an absolute sense whatsoever, it's wrong. .... >e.??? No methods - that is incorrect, there are many of them in Visud. ... S: See d) answer above. All the teachings are about anatta whatever we read. ... >f.??? Naturally - is also incorrect, what is natural to one person may not be natural to another.? This another point i have yet discuss with any DSGs.? Maybe you will to like to discuss with me.? It should just conditions or inclinations? and not natural. .... S: 'Natural' means understanding dhammas as anatta. 'Unnatural' means having the illusion that Self can have some say in the matter. ... >DSG is absolutely right to say that all are conditions or Dhamma are conditions.? Panna is also absolutely?the most important. ? ... S: It's not just a matter of repeating this but really understanding at this moment what the reality is appearing now. If there is understanding now of seeing or visible object, then there won't be any speculation about methods, reciting, breath, temples or anything else. ... >But the development of?the understanding dhamma?should not just seen in the light of panna alone and at the moment of paramatha dhamma.? ... S: For a true-blue dinosaur, there is no "but"... ... >Bc panna dont interest, dont act, dont strive.? And at paramatha level, one cannot see words and listen to words in one door way.? ? Words are conventional. ... S: Exactly - words, door-ways, conventional terms are all just concepts. The path is the understanding of paramattha dhammas, one at a time, NOW! So, in the true sense, the seeing and listening come down to wise attention, the understanding of realities only. ... >So you like to discuss.? Cheers ... S: Not really:-)) I've only just got over one fever after all.....j/k, Ken. O.K., I don't mind, but ask you to go a little more gently.... Use your boxing gloves with Ken H and Sukin by all means:-). Metta Sarah ====== #106536 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 11:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Scott, ----------- <. . .> K:> It's not a shift in understanding so much as a remembering of what I have been told here at DSG. To understand the benefits of kusala means to feel an urgent need for kusala right now. .... Sarah: Hmm, I see a difference between "an urgent need" and an understanding of the benefit of kusala when it arises. I think that as soon as there's the idea (however subtle) of trying to have it arise in anyway, that that's bound to be lobha. ------------ Scott and I were having an experimental conversation, testing the boundaries between right understanding and formal practice. I'll admit I stepped over the line. Sorry, it won't happen again! :-) -------------------- K:> If there is someone with you right now, show that person some kindness or generosity. If there is no other person that's unfortunate, but maybe there is some other way you can have kusala consciousness now. ... Sarah: Again, the distinction between showing kindness, helping those around one naturally and wishing to have metta, trying to have metta because one knows it's kusala. When we understand more about its characteristic and quality, it arises more and more without having to think about it in advance. This is why the development of all kinds of kusala comes back to understanding dhammas, not to trying to have more kusala. --------------------- OK, but there are rituals that we follow without belief in their efficacy, aren't there? Sometimes, when we are annoyed or impatient, we try our best to hide our annoyance, and act the part of a cheerful, patient person. There is no harm in these rituals provided we only fool the people around us, and not ourselves as well. ----------------------------- >K: I know I am on dangerous ground here, but I still think the presence of a Buddha relic offers certain conditions for [kusala] respect-paying that are not found elsewhere. ... Sarah: Back to the moment and the citta now or at such a time. For some accumulations, the sight of even the Buddha was not even a condition for kusala respect. Again, I think it's the understanding of dhammas that's important. ----------------------------- I don't always know what I am talking about at times like these, and that is due to my inadequate knowledge of Abhidhamma. For example, there can't be very strong dana unless a very suitable gift and a very deserving recipient are both present, can there? Or can there? I wonder if one person (with great accumulations for kusala) could have more kusala in giving a crumb to an ant than another person could in giving a meal to a monk (assuming there is kusala in both cases). Or I wonder if one person could have more akusala in killing a mouse than another person could have in killing an elephant. I don't know these things. I haven't done my Abhidhamma homework, and so I continue to make mistakes in DSG discussions. :-( Ken H #106537 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 12:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On importance of samatha - Part2 sarahprocter... Hi pt, #104178 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > "...and when he thus possesses concentration so developed > as to have both provided benefits and become more advanced, > he will then more easily perfect the development of understanding." > > Of course, just a bit further ahead in XII,8 it's said how hard it is to master each of the stages of jhana/abhinna in the first place, so it seems the "easier" bit is more likely much slower because one first has to master all the abhinnas. > > Anyway, I guess there's no sure way to know the answer to your question unless one has the power of knowing others' predispositions and even then it would depend on the particular individual. Or more precisely, the accumulations. > > In light of Sarah's recent messages like 104133 and 104092, it would indeed seem that jhana (and abhinnas, and everything else short of insight) is the long way around. ... S: Conditioned dhammas, no choice in the matter at all. ... >However, again, I think it's down to accumulations. Some feel that insight is enough, others feel that jhana is needed too. ... S: Again, this suggests an idea that Self has a say in the matter.... One citta at a time, like now.... We never know what citta will arise next. ... >I feel both are fine, even though the second might take longer (and then abhinnas yet even longer, unless you are a "buddha, paccekabuddha, chief disiple, etc" who gain these on attaining arahantship as it says in XII,11). ... S: The highest abhinna is the aasavakkhaya, the extinction of all cankers, is only attained on the attainment of arahatship for anyone. Different accumulations - all a question of understanding dhammas as they are, not of aiming to have certain ones arise by will. Metta Sarah ====== #106538 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Sun, 4/4/10, kenhowardau wrote: >Scott and I were having an experimental conversation, testing the boundaries between right understanding and formal practice. I'll admit I stepped over the line. Sorry, it won't happen again! :-) ... S: :-)] We don't need any more renegade dinosaurs, do we? (j/k, Ken O!) .... >OK, but there are rituals that we follow without belief in their efficacy, aren't there? Sometimes, when we are annoyed or impatient, we try our best to hide our annoyance, and act the part of a cheerful, patient person. There is no harm in these rituals provided we only fool the people around us, and not ourselves as well. .... S: Just different conditioned dhammas, understanding can be aware of any of them at any time... as soon as we think in terms of the situations rather than the dhammas, it seems that certain rituals have some efficacy... back to the cittas, cetasikas and rupas you always remind us about. .... >I don't always know what I am talking about at times like these, and that is due to my inadequate knowledge of Abhidhamma. For example, there can't be very strong dana unless a very suitable gift and a very deserving recipient are both present, can there? Or can there? I wonder if one person (with great accumulations for kusala) could have more kusala in giving a crumb to an ant than another person could in giving a meal to a monk (assuming there is kusala in both cases). ... S: I would think so, but it's purely speculative on my part. When we read about the dana depend on the virtues of the recipient and so on, this is *all other things being equal*. There might be a lot of kusala in giving the crumb whereas the meal to the monk might be very begrudgingly given as a chore. Only panna can know. ... >Or I wonder if one person could have more akusala in killing a mouse than another person could have in killing an elephant. I don't know these things. I haven't done my Abhidhamma homework, and so I continue to make mistakes in DSG discussions. :-( ... S: We all make mistakes and testing the boundaries as you and Scott were doing can be helpful. Again, there may be the killing of a mouse in a real rage and the very reluctant putting an old, sick elephant out of its discomfort. Again, back to the panna only. The examples for this in the text, such as about the size of the animal and so on are again for *all other things being equal*, as I recall. I think we do start losing the plot when we speculate too much about situations and appearances. Metta Sarah ======= #106539 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations farrellkevin80 Hi Mike, Mike wrote: "Hi Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Kevin: Hi Nore. It was in my signature. Sorry if there was any confusion about that. > > But "cheesy"? Come on : z Mike: Since that site seems to reject foreigners it's hard for many of us to judge the cheeziness (or lack thereof...) :-] Metta Mike Kevin: Hi Mike. It is a shame that the site isn't accessible there. I hadn't realized that. It was simply a music video link that I had in my signature though, no big deal. Unfortunately the whole video isn't available on youtube either, but the song is there. This version has a bunch of NASCAR pictures on it. Sorry about that. Perhaps you like NASCAR? I am not a NASCAR fan myself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDUJuHG5eF4 Cheers, Kevin #106540 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 3:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah ? >S: Straw Man argument. What is being stressed is that there are only dhammas - only cittas, cetasikas and rupas. This is also true when we conventionally refer to listening and reading dhammas. In the truest sense, when the Buddha refers to suta-maya panna, citta-maya panna and bhavana-maya panna, it is not to any activities, but to panna that is being referred to. KO:?? Isnt cetana is also a dhamma, a cetsikas.?? I always said panna is the most impt, but panna can only understand not act or interest.? Can citta maya or bhanva maya panna acts or the act is cetana. >S: Another straw man argument. No one has said that "all convention(al) action is wrong". Again, there are just dhammas now, no matter what we refer to in terms of concepts. Again, I believe you've been missing the point. KO:??Wow,?two straw man now.??Definitely there are dhammas now,?only with?the countless sense and mind door processes,?we are able to listen.?And without dhammas we cannot act?or see, taste etc.? ?You said No one has said that "all convention(al) action is wrong" - are you sure that is not what I know of.?because your statement?is not consistent as I alway saw email that states no action.? >S: And whether chanda arises or not has nothing to do with any "choice". KO:???How does you have an interest in Buddha just panna only or is it because of chanda with panna.??Isnt that interest a choice condition by dhamma. >S: Moments of right view are kusala and moments of wrong view are akusala. When there is any idea of control or choice in an absolute sense whatsoever, it's wrong. KO:? Meditation must be control,?that is your assumption?which is not consistent with?Visud. ? It can be as also like reading and listening?:-).? >... >S: See d) answer above. All the teachings are about anatta whatever we read. KO:? Nope,? Visud are full of them.? Anatta is the characteristic of dhamma.? Development of?anatta comes from the understanding of anatta.?? That?development of the understanding must first requires listening. >S: 'Natural' means understanding dhammas as anatta. 'Unnatural' means having the illusion that Self can have some say in the matter. KO: If it is natural, why cant pple understanding it right now :-).??Illusion of self is also natural, it is conditioned by miccha ditthi.?? So what is natural.?:-). >S: It's not just a matter of repeating this but really understanding at this moment what the reality is appearing now. If there is understanding now of seeing or visible object, then there won't be any speculation about methods, reciting, breath, temples or anything else. KO:? It is not I speculate about methods, it is DSG who are speculate about?methods, recitation etc.? There is no wrongness in them, the wrongness?only arise when aksuala arise with them.??The wrongess of rules and rituals arise because of miccha ditthi and not beacuse of rules and rituals themselves.? Isn't Vinaya,? full of rules?? Since?you said?it is all base on understanding, why?Buddha bother to have such rules?:-).?? Visuds are full of methods and recitations and breath and examples of disciple using?recitation?to attain enlightement.? Can you further your?understanding what is reality now without the listening and reading of dhamma.? You mean that is not a method while recitation is a method :-).? >S: Exactly - words, door-ways, conventional terms are all just concepts. The path is the understanding of paramattha dhammas, one at a time, NOW! >So, in the true sense, the seeing and listening come down to wise attention, the understanding of realities only. >... KO:? Isn't listening a conventional actions?? Without concepts would you able to understand paramatha dhammas.? There are concepts that decribe something that exist?like citta.? So what we learn now are just concepts until our panna is keen enough to be in the paramatha level.? Whatever wise attention we have are just nimittas for the direct experience, so we cannot claim that our understanding or this development is non conceptual while breathing is or recitation is.??? There is nothing wrong about concepts, the wrongness come from our misconceivings (mental proliferations through wrong?views, conceits and cravings) of concepts.??? At the conventional level,?the real difference between vipassana and samantha bhavana is that the objects of vipassana is always?based on concepts that exists (like cittas) while samantha?can based on objects that may not exist like hair, corpse or?objects?that exist like elements of the 32 parts. >S: Not really:-)) I've only just got over one fever after all.....j/k, Ken. >O.K., I don't mind, but ask you to go a little more gently.... Use your boxing gloves with Ken H and Sukin by all means:-). KO:? Ok I try but it is my accumulations :-). Kind regards Ken O #106541 From: "nori" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Kevin, K:"But "cheesy"? Come on : z" ; ) Just kidding... not. Metta, Nori #106542 From: "nori" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations norakat147 Hi Vince, Thanks for your comments, but what I meant is 'affected' as in causing an 'effect'; not affection. I was trying to raise discussion on the idea some hold that rupa-matter-form-objects are dependent upon consciousness/mind in some way to exist. Nori #106543 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 3:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Alex, Kevin, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Kevin: Hi Alex. It is a shame that you have not read the short booklet about Concepts and Realities that I suggested yet. Had you done so, you would have benefited and been able to understand the matter. Unfortunately, it looks like you don't even want to understand what your opponents are putting forth, yet you still wish to argue with them. Indeed that is unfortunate. > > Mike: The subject mater in http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm is helpful, but the translation and/or editing renders some of it exremely difficult to understand. > > Mike: For example, this passage, which is relevant to the current discussion: > ------------------------------- > AS: We read in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha: > > Acariya Anuruddha: All such different things, although they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of thought in the form of shadows of ultimate things. They are called pannatti be cause they are thought of, reckoned, understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of pannatti is so called because it is made known. As it makes known, it is described as name concept, name, name-made. > ------------------------------ > > Mike: Mixes together the end of VIII-30 and the first sentence of VIII-31. I suggest reading pages 325-328 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary, in Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, where you can see the entire passage in context. If you don't have a copy, this book is available in full online: > http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+compre\ hensive+manual+of+abhidhamma&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=rlOVSZfeNJDMlQTussnmCQ#v=onepage&q=\ &f=false > > [Not sure if that link will survive Yahoo...] > > Mike: VIII-31 discusses how concepts can be pointing to reality, or not. In part, it says: > ------------- > Acariya Anuruddha: As, for instance, when it makes known what really exists in the ultimate sense by a term such as "matter", "feeling", and so forth, it is called a (direct) concept of the real. > > Acariya Anuruddha: When it makes known what does not really exist in the ultimate sense by a term such as "land", "mountain", and so forth, it is called a (direct) concept of the unreal. > --------------- > > Metta > Mike > Hello Mike, all, Thank you for your post. Thing is that I wonder where did the Buddha talk about that concepts can never lead to awakening. Satipatthana sutta itself contains many "conceptual" things (maranasati, 32 bodyparts, 10 cemetery contemplations, anapanasati). I believe that the "concepts" are an activity of the mind, and are within sanna and other mental aggregates. The conceptualizing activity of the mind is due to craving & ignorance (of 4NT), so that has to be dealt with. By contemplating (with right view) things like decomposing corpses, 32 bodyparts, inevitability of death; craving & ignorance will gradualy ceases. I really like the MN18 on origin and cessation of proliferations and "perceptions & categories of complication" origination (repeat the same for other 5 senses] "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future ideas cognizable via the intellect. and cessation: "If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html Note: It is due to craving that complicated categories & perception are invented by the mind. Wrong views are aspect of clinging, which has craving as its proximate cause. MN9 With metta, Alex #106544 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations ashkenn2k Dear Nori >The observation I wanted to mention is that each day many people die yet the world in regards to the rupa/matter and rupa-sankharas remain unaffected. > >So for example, one can believe that their 'minds' are somehow entwined with the rupas/rupa-sankhara s. Yet, I can be in the same room with them when they die, and the rupas/rupa-sankhara s with their loss and passing away remains unaffected, i.e. the world remains unaffected; maybe it has never been affected by their 'minds'; only in the way he 'conceived of it'. ? KO:? that right, because of not understanding reality.? Conceiving could?be mental proliferation due to underlying tendecies as described in the commentary to MN1 translated?by B Bodhi.? Three types?are wrong views, craving and conceit. >And billions of beings each day pass away and the world remains the same, unaffected by their passing away. KO:??Yes we are all alone just like no one can experience the pain we alone experience in illness.??It is described in the Ratthapala Sutta MN 82.? >I was trying to raise discussion on the idea some hold that rupa-matter- form-objects are dependent upon consciousness/ mind in some way to exist. KO:? Could you share more on this as I am not clear on this point. Kind regards Ken O #106545 From: Vince Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations cerovzt@... Dear nori you wrote: > Thanks for your comments, but what I meant is 'affected' as in > causing an 'effect'; not affection. oh,.. ok :) > I was trying to raise discussion on the idea some hold that > rupa-matter-form-objects are dependent upon consciousness/mind in > some way to exist. according D.O. there is not dependence but co-dependence. "from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html best, Vince. #106546 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Kevin: Hi Mike. It is a shame that the site isn't accessible there. I hadn't realized that. It was simply a music video link that I had in my signature though, no big deal. Unfortunately the whole video isn't available on youtube either, but the song is there. This version has a bunch of NASCAR pictures on it. Sorry about that. Perhaps you like NASCAR? I am not a NASCAR fan myself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDUJuHG5eF4 Mike: Thanks. This is a nice version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5lZRWXzZ4 Mike: But personally I prefer to listen to Miles Davis or Bob Dylan... Mike: Now where where we? Mike #106547 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality mikenz66 Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Alex: Thing is that I wonder where did the Buddha talk about that concepts can never lead to awakening. Satipatthana sutta itself contains many "conceptual" things (maranasati, 32 bodyparts, 10 cemetery contemplations, anapanasati). Mike: In the Suttas it may not be completely clear. But Commentaries/Visuddhimagga/Modern Teachers distinguish between the parts (objects) of the Satipatthana Sutta that speak of the development of concentration and those that are objects of insight. E.g. see Vsm VIII-43. And starting at Chapter XVIII of Vsm insight either arises after emerging from Jhana and contemplating such things as feeling, perception, etc, (e.g. XVIII-3) or, for pure-insight workers, directly contemplating such things as elements (e.g. XVIII-5). > Alex: I believe that the "concepts" are an activity of the mind, and are within sanna and other mental aggregates. The conceptualizing activity of the mind is due to craving & ignorance (of 4NT), so that has to be dealt with. Mike: Certainly it has to be dealt with, but "having better understanding of stuff" isn't the same as the arising of insight wisdom, which, if I understand correctly, is said to requires object to be a paramattha dhamma. Mike: My understanding isn't good enough to elaborate on why that is. Perhaps someone else can do that. Mike #106548 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 11:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt mikenz66 Hi Ken, Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO:? Meditation must be control,?that is your assumption?which is not consistent with?Visud. ? It can be as also like reading and listening?:-).? Mike: It's interesting to see Sarah brining up straw men. To me the "Meditation must be control" assumption is the straw elephant that makes many of these discussions less than fruitful. But perhaps it's better to let this sleeping elephant lie ... Mike #106549 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Hi Mike & Ken O, --- On Mon, 5/4/10, Mike wrote: >> KO:? Meditation must be control,?that is your assumption?which is not consistent with?Visud. ? It can be as also like reading and listening?:-) .? >Mike: It's interesting to see Sarah brining up straw men. To me the "Meditation must be control" assumption is the straw elephant that makes many of these discussions less than fruitful. .... Sarah: Talking of those straw men (and taking a note from your lead on this), can either of you quote where I've said/suggested that "meditation must be control"? It's easier for me to discuss what I've actually said than someone's misunderstanding about what they think I may have meant. What is meditation at this moment? ... >But perhaps it's better to let this sleeping elephant lie ... ... S: No straw, white or sleeping elephants rest for long round here...:-) Thanks for your interest Mike. Metta Sarah ====== #106550 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality truth_aerator Hello Mike, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Alex: Thing is that I wonder where did the Buddha talk about that concepts can never lead to awakening. Satipatthana sutta itself contains many "conceptual" things (maranasati, 32 bodyparts, 10 cemetery contemplations, anapanasati). > > Mike: In the Suttas it may not be completely clear. But Commentaries/Visuddhimagga/Modern Teachers distinguish between the parts (objects) of the Satipatthana Sutta that speak of the development of concentration and those that are objects of insight. E.g. see Vsm VIII-43. And starting at Chapter XVIII of Vsm insight either arises after emerging from Jhana and contemplating such things as feeling, perception, etc, (e.g. XVIII-3) or, for pure-insight workers, directly contemplating such things as elements (e.g. XVIII-5). > > An interesting thing is that VsM says that one can become awakened through 'conceptual' samatha objects like lets say maranasati. Not only that maranasati can lead to deathless (nibbana) it also leads to seeing tilakkhana. So one can investigate concepts and realize anicca-dukkha-anatta and reach nibbana. "A bhikkhu devoted to mindfulness of death is constantly diligent. He acquires perception of disenchantment with all kinds of becoming (existence). He conquers attachment to life. He condemns evil. He avoids much storing. He has no stain of avarice about requisites. Perception of impermanence grows in him, following upon which there appear the perceptions of pain and not-self. But while beings who have not developed [mindfulness of] death fall victims to fear, horror and confusion at the time of death as though suddenly seized by wild beasts, spirits, snakes, robbers, or murderers, he dies undeluded and fearless without falling into any such state. And if he does not attain the deathless here and now, he is at least headed for a happy destiny on the breakup of the body." - VsM VIII,48 The suttas also frequently talk that Anapanasati can lead to Arhatship. Again, another conceptual object that can serve as basis for insight and liberation. With metta, Alex #106551 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt mikenz66 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Mike & Ken O, > > --- On Mon, 5/4/10, Mike wrote: > >> KO:? Meditation must be control,?that is your assumption?which is not consistent with?Visud. ? It can be as also like reading and listening?:-) .? > > >Mike: It's interesting to see Sarah brining up straw men. To me the "Meditation must be control" assumption is the straw elephant that makes many of these discussions less than fruitful. > .... > Sarah: Talking of those straw men (and taking a note from your lead on this), can either of you quote where I've said/suggested that "meditation must be control"? It's easier for me to discuss what I've actually said than someone's misunderstanding about what they think I may have meant. Mike: Sorry, perhaps I was not clear enough. I wasn't attributing any particular statement to you, I was commenting on KenO's statement. I certainly get the message rather strongly from Scott's, KenH's, Robert's, etc, posts that what many (or most, or all) teachers teach is incorrect because they believe that those teachers are teaching that paramattha dhammas can be controlled. If I have misunderstood them, then I'm sure they will correct me. Mike #106552 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality mikenz66 Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Mike, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > Alex: Thing is that I wonder where did the Buddha talk about that concepts can never lead to awakening. Satipatthana sutta itself contains many "conceptual" things (maranasati, 32 bodyparts, 10 cemetery contemplations, anapanasati). > > > > Mike: In the Suttas it may not be completely clear. But Commentaries/Visuddhimagga/Modern Teachers distinguish between the parts (objects) of the Satipatthana Sutta that speak of the development of concentration and those that are objects of insight. E.g. see Vsm VIII-43. And starting at Chapter XVIII of Vsm insight either arises after emerging from Jhana and contemplating such things as feeling, perception, etc, (e.g. XVIII-3) or, for pure-insight workers, directly contemplating such things as elements (e.g. XVIII-5). > > > > > > > Alex: An interesting thing is that VsM says that one can become awakened through 'conceptual' samatha objects like lets say maranasati. Not only that maranasati can lead to deathless (nibbana) it also leads to seeing tilakkhana. So one can investigate concepts and realize anicca-dukkha-anatta and reach nibbana. > > > "A bhikkhu devoted to mindfulness of death is constantly diligent. > He acquires perception of disenchantment with all kinds of becoming > (existence). He conquers attachment to life. He condemns evil. He avoids much storing. He has no stain of avarice about requisites. Perception of impermanence grows in him, following upon which there appear the perceptions of pain and not-self. But while beings who have not developed [mindfulness of] death fall victims to fear, horror and confusion at the time of death as though suddenly seized by wild beasts, spirits, snakes, robbers, or murderers, he dies undeluded and fearless without falling into any such state. And if he does not attain the deathless here and now, he is at least headed for a happy destiny on the breakup of the body." - VsM VIII,48 Mike: Thanks for the quote, Alex. (It's actually VIII-41). I hope someone more knowledgeable will comment, but I think that the standard view would be that: "...if he does not attain the deathless here and now..." could be re-worded as: "...if he does not become an Arahant in this life (by further development)..." I.e., the recollection is not sufficient, in itself, for awakening. > Alex: The suttas also frequently talk that Anapanasati can lead to Arhatship. Again, another conceptual object that can serve as basis for insight and liberation. Mike: I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to me that the Seven Enlightenment Factors section of the Anapanasati Sutta talks of contemplating "body as body" (not as concept) and other things such as feelings and mind objects. Mike #106553 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality farrellkevin80 Dear Mike, Mike: I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to me that the Seven Enlightenment Factors section of the Anapanasati Sutta talks of contemplating "body as body" (not as concept) and other things such as feelings and mind objects. Mike Kevin: Seeing the body as ones' own is a concept pointing to a concept. Seeing the body as "only as body", on the other hand, is a concept pointing to realities. Likewise seeing feelings as just feelings, mind as just mind, and mind objects as just mind objects are all concepts leading to realities. Thus, conceptual understanding gets purified, leading to experiential wisdom and purification. Panna on the conceptual level leads to panna on the experiential level (I've noticed that I am fond of that statement : ). That is exactly how the Blessed One taught the development of satipatthana as recorded in many Suttas. He taught that you should know body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects as just body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects and view them as anatta, without self, dukkha, and impermanent, not as ones own or belonging to oneself. This can be seen in many suttas. The thing is with us, the more abhidhamma we know, the clearer we can do that. If panna is already developed from past lives, we need less tidbits. Neverthless, body as body, feelings and feelings, mind as mind, and mind-objects as mind-objects and all as anatta may be a good forumula to remember and contemplate. That is having "sati" in the sense it is used often in the suttas. It is not "Bare attention". Likewise trying to do this for set periods intently and so on just reinforces a doer that gets a job performed. That is not with this is about at all. Quite the contrary. Being ardent and alert here means to be devoted to seeing things this way in ones life, and simply trying to think along these lines often, reminding oneself "that is the way things really are so why not view them that way", instead of just indulging in sense pleasures (which we indulge in anyway of course but at least when we have right view those experiences can be conditions for). I hope this helps. kevin kevin #106554 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:59 am Subject: Character encoding ptaus1 Hi all, Here's a bit about character encoding as I understand it. Please feel free to email me on-list or off-list if you need some help. 1. What is it and how it works? When you press a key on your keyboard, for example the "b" key, your pc hardware and software will talk to each other for a bit and eventually agree to translate that keyboard action into a particular (usually hexadecimal) number like "0062". Then the program, which is responsible for transforming numbers into letters on the screen (like your browser for example), will look at that number, as well as looking at the character encoding you have set (like Unicode for example). Finally, it will realize that "0062" is equivalent to letter "b" in Unicode (UTF-8) encoding. And so it will display "b" on your screen. So it's a bit like paramattha dhammas and concepts :) Anyway, each key on your keyboard will get a particular number assigned to it - this is called a "keyboard layout", so it's basically a small program that links each particular key stroke with a certain number. And, character encoding will be responsible for those numbers then getting translated into particular letters and signs on the screen. In essence, a message here on DSG is nothing else but a bunch of numbers which the browser will attempt to transform into letters in accordance with the character encoding it detects (which was set either manually or by default). 2. What's the core of the problem? The problems start when two encodings understand the same number differently. So for example, Unicode will understand "0062" to mean "b" while some other encoding might understand "0062" to mean "?". So, if the message was typed in one encoding (resulting in a certain sequence of numbers), and we attempt to read the message in another encoding (which interprets the same numbers differently) we are very likely to get some weird signs on our screens, depending on how much the two encodings differ. Luckily, most western (Latin) encodings are similar when it comes to letters, so we don't get much problems there, but not so when it comes to punctuation signs ("';[?]:,.), and the differences are even bigger when it comes to non-standard letters with diacritics, like the ones used in Pali. End of part 1. Next time, it'll be about when the problems with encoding are most likely to occur. Best wishes pt #106555 From: "Rob" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 7:38 am Subject: Re: Character encoding rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Here's a bit about character encoding as I understand it. Please feel free to email me on-list or off-list if you need some help. > > 1. What is it and how it works? > When you press a key on your keyboard, for example the "b" key, your pc hardware and software will talk to each other for a bit and eventually agree to translate that keyboard action into a particular (usually hexadecimal) number like "0062". Then the program, which is responsible for transforming numbers into letters on the screen (like your browser for example), will look at that number, as well as looking at the character encoding you have set (like Unicode for example). Finally, it will realize that "0062" is equivalent to letter "b" in Unicode (UTF-8) encoding. And so it will display "b" on your screen. > > So it's a bit like paramattha dhammas and concepts :) > > Anyway, each key on your keyboard will get a particular number assigned to it - this is called a "keyboard layout", so it's basically a small program that links each particular key stroke with a certain number. And, character encoding will be responsible for those numbers then getting translated into particular letters and signs on the screen. In essence, a message here on DSG is nothing else but a bunch of numbers which the browser will attempt to transform into letters in accordance with the character encoding it detects (which was set either manually or by default). > > > 2. What's the core of the problem? > The problems start when two encodings understand the same number differently. So for example, Unicode will understand "0062" to mean "b" while some other encoding might understand "0062" to mean "?". > > So, if the message was typed in one encoding (resulting in a certain sequence of numbers), and we attempt to read the message in another encoding (which interprets the same numbers differently) we are very likely to get some weird signs on our screens, depending on how much the two encodings differ. > > Luckily, most western (Latin) encodings are similar when it comes to letters, so we don't get much problems there, but not so when it comes to punctuation signs ("';[?]:,.), and the differences are even bigger when it comes to non-standard letters with diacritics, like the ones used in Pali. > > > End of part 1. Next time, it'll be about when the problems with encoding are most likely to occur. > > Best wishes > pt > Hi, I am a noob here. I have the same problem. I pretty much gave up trying to use the diacritical marks in yahoo. I have tried changing the character encoding setting in my browser; but the results are inconsistent. It is is even worse trying to use Pali, Sanskrit, or Chinese text. The other thing is, not everyone has the same font packages. From what I gather, it is just something we have to be patient with. I look forward to your next post on this. robin #106556 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:34 am Subject: Authoritative Abilities! bhikkhu.sama... Friends How is the gradual refinement of the 5 mental abilities? There are these 5 mental Abilities: The ability of faith , The ability of energy , The ability of awareness , The ability of concentration , The ability of understanding ! What are the six aspects of these abilities? They are dominant. They are initiating. They makes quality. They are stabilizing. They are completing. They are the foundation. How are the abilities to be understood in the sense of being dominant? When one leaves behind sceptic doubt, the faith ability is found in one as being dominated by definitive decision. This faith ability dominated by resolute determination to decision, then facilitates exertion, presence, non-distraction and seeing. When one leaves behind laziness, the energy ability is found in one as being dominated by exertion of effort. This energy ability dominated by exerting effort, then facilitates presence, non-distraction, seeing and decisiveness. When one leaves behind negligence, the awareness ability is found in one as being dominated by presence. This awareness ability dominated by presence, firmly founded, then facilitates non-distraction, seeing, decisiveness and exertion. When one leaves behind agitation, the concentration ability is found in one as being dominated by non-distraction. This concentration ability dominated by non-distraction, calm, then facilitates seeing, decisiveness, exertion and presence. When one leaves behind ignorance, the understanding ability is found in one as being dominated by seeing. This understanding ability dominated by seeing, penetrative and clear, then facilitates decisiveness, exertion, presence and non-distraction. This is how the abilities are to be found and understood as through dominance! <...> Source: Sariputta in: The Path of Discrimination: Patidasambhidamagga http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106557 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >>Sarah: Talking of those straw men (and taking a note from your lead on this), can either of you quote where I've said/suggested that "meditation must be control"? It's easier for me to discuss what I've actually said than someone's misunderstanding about what they think I may have meant. > >What is meditation at this moment? KO:? Clearly comprehending the body intimation and rupas when one walk forward.? If one loose that moment, go back the starting point and walk forward again.? Walking back and forth, the method used by one disciple to attain Arahant as in the commentary to DN2, translated by B Bodhi.? Or another widely talk about: It could also be breathing, which is written in Visud, anapasati and?satipathanna.? Everyone breath including animal, but do they breath with awareness or just breathing.??? Again, it is not the action that make a practise right or wrong, it is accompanying cetasikas that matters. Cheers Ken o #106558 From: "Rob" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:57 am Subject: Hello rrobinrb2000 Hi, I have been intending to join this group for some time; finally got around to it. I have a 38 year on and off background in Buddhism; primarily East Asian Devotional Mahayana. A few years ago, I became semi-retired, and found myself with more time to do some in depth study. I became attracted to Theravada while back translating Chinese Buddhist terms to the original Sanskrit. This, in turn, led me to look at the Pali equivalents. My purpose was to gain a better understanding of the concepts. I found the translations of the Suttas from the Pali extremely useful in sorting out 'conflations' and so on. I was pleased to find out that Theravadins do some devotional chanting. I am leaning to chant / recite / sing the Metta Sutta, the Chant of Metta, and the Jaya Mangala Gatha. I am using these, and silent metta meditation, as cultivations in the sense of the 4 elements of samma vayama. The affect of this had been rather amazing. In addition, I gained a better understanding of what silent meditation is about, and decided it was something I wanted to pursue. Right now, I am teaching my self. While less than ideal, self instruction is the only option I have available. Presently, I am working on the absorptions {primarily with breathing in and out as the object}; learning to curb the 5 hindrances, and I think, settling into access concentration. I have encountered some difficulty. Based on what I have read; those are to be expected. Moreover, I am toying with satipatthana a bit. Both, even in small doses with some likely mistakes, have proven very useful. To summarize. I am interested in discussions about: 1. Meditation; in particular, rupa-jhana, right now. 2. Pali Devotional Chanting. 3. Metta Bhavana {and the other 3 appamannayo, brahmavihara}. 4. Gaining a better conceptual understanding of Pali technical terms. I especially enjoy looking at etymologies. The most important thing I have learned from Theravada sources, so far, is non-attachment to fixed views. I have come to view my own understanding as useful; but limited and tentative. For, now, I shall sit back, do some reading, and try to get acquainted. with palms together, robin #106559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Dear Robin. Welcome here and thank you for your interesting introduction. You have quite a program. I opt for the Pali technical terms, but these are not so technical as you would believe. They pertain to our daily life now. Which terms you are in particular interested in? As to satipa.t.thaana, it helps to understand more the Abhidhamma, and here we are with what you name technical terms. The Dhamma is very precise and very subtle. Nina. Op 5-apr-2010, om 11:57 heeft Rob het volgende geschreven: > Hi, > > I have been intending to join this group for some time; finally got > around to it. I have a 38 year on and off background in Buddhism; > primarily East Asian Devotional Mahayana. > > A few years ago, I became semi-retired, and found myself with more > time to do some in depth study. I became attracted to Theravada > while back translating Chinese Buddhist terms to the original > Sanskrit. This, in turn, led me to look at the Pali equivalents. My > purpose was to gain a better understanding of the concepts. I found > the translations of the Suttas from the Pali extremely useful in > sorting out 'conflations' and so on. > > I was pleased to find out that Theravadins do some devotional > chanting. I am leaning to chant / recite / sing the Metta Sutta, > the Chant of Metta, and the Jaya Mangala Gatha. I am using these, > and silent metta meditation, as cultivations in the sense of the 4 > elements of samma vayama. The affect of this had been rather amazing. > > In addition, I gained a better understanding of what silent > meditation is about, and decided it was something I wanted to > pursue. Right now, I am teaching my self. While less than ideal, > self instruction is the only option I have available. Presently, I > am working on the absorptions {primarily with breathing in and out > as the object}; learning to curb the 5 hindrances, and I think, > settling into access concentration. I have encountered some > difficulty. Based on what I have read; those are to be expected. > Moreover, I am toying with satipatthana a bit. Both, even in small > doses with some likely mistakes, have proven very useful. > > To summarize. I am interested in discussions about: > > 1. Meditation; in particular, rupa-jhana, right now. > 2. Pali Devotional Chanting. > 3. Metta Bhavana {and the other 3 appamannayo, brahmavihara}. > 4. Gaining a better conceptual understanding of Pali technical > terms. I especially enjoy looking at etymologies. The most > important thing I have learned from Theravada sources, so far, is > non-attachment to fixed views. I have come to view my own > understanding as useful; but limited and tentative. > > For, now, I shall sit back, do some reading, and try to get > acquainted. > > with palms together, > > robin > > > > #106560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Character encoding nilovg Dear pt, I did not forget your useful directions, but just now I have problems with the proofreading the printer gave me, takes a lot of time. Many things to be corrected. also my Abhidhamma series is waiting for me, Nina. Op 5-apr-2010, om 6:59 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Here's a bit about character encoding as I understand it. Please > feel free to email me on-list or off-list if you need some help. #106561 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Hi Robin, Welcome to DSG and thank you for your helpful and informative introduction. I look forward to further discussions with you. You mention "toying with satipatthana a bit" - perhaps we can start with this sometimes when you feel inclined. What do you understand by satipatthana? May I ask where you live? Thanks again for making your presence known. Feel free to join in any threads, ask any questions/add any questions, or start your own threads anytime. (We have several Robs/Roberts here, so glad you signed off with 'Robin':-)) Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 5/4/10, Rob wrote: >I have been intending to join this group for some time; finally got around to it. I have a 38 year on and off background in Buddhism; primarily East Asian Devotional Mahayana. <...> #106562 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, As Ken H suggested, I think we need to review and agree on some basics first: --- On Mon, 5/4/10, Ken O wrote: >>S:What is meditation at this moment? >KO:? Clearly comprehending the body intimation and rupas when one walk forward....? .... S: Again, what is meditation at this moment? At this moment are you walking forward? Is there not seeing now? Is visible object not seen now? Can there be awareness and understanding now? If there is awareness now of visible object, is that not meditation? Do we need to walk forward or take any action at all in order for realities to appear now? Metta Sarah ======= #106563 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:35 pm Subject: Re: Hello jonoabb Hi Robin Welcome to the list from me. Thanks for the interesting intro. > To summarize. I am interested in discussions about: > > 1. Meditation; in particular, rupa-jhana, right now. > 2. Pali Devotional Chanting. > 3. Metta Bhavana {and the other 3 appamannayo, brahmavihara}. > 4. Gaining a better conceptual understanding of Pali technical terms. I especially enjoy looking at etymologies. The most important thing I have learned from Theravada sources, so far, is non-attachment to fixed views. I have come to view my own understanding as useful; but limited and tentative. > > For, now, I shall sit back, do some reading, and try to get acquainted. > =============== That's quite a load to discuss ;-)) Do come in with questions or comments as soon as you feel comfortable doing so. Looking forward to chatting some more. Jon #106564 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >As Ken H suggested, I think we need to review and agree on some basics first: KO:? sure why not :-)? >At this moment are you walking forward? > >Is there not seeing now? Is visible object not seen now? Can there be awareness and understanding now? If there is awareness now of visible object, is that not meditation? Do we need to walk forward or take any action at all in order for realities to appear now? KO:? Maybe I should ask you this question,?can one sense door or mind door process listen to words.? If you could answer this questions, then it would answer your answer on walking forward. Oh also?that you have to argue with the ancient masters who wrote the commentaries and Visud about samatha bhavana on walking, reciting and breathing.? You mean the ancient masters dont understand visible objects?:-).??? Why do they write about these practises then if it is not for the sake of development of panna.?? Do you think panna could?condition to arise without?first being condition by listening and reading of dhammas?? Can you explain why listening and reading is not a method?? Does understanding reality means one should just listen and read and other practises is irrelevant??If it is irrelevant why did?Visud?and the texts describe the methods in the?samatha bhavana.?? It is the?thinking of the dinosaurs that just understanding this moment nothing else matter, they forget that this moment? is conditioned by the development of panna through conventional actions like listening and reading and dicussion.? They forget that this moment is an act, an interest, an effort because panna only understand dont act, interest or effort.???They only think panna is the only faculty, they forget about faith, energy, concentraton and mindfulness facultiies which could condition the arising of panna at this moment.? They forget, their present moment of?the understanding about reality is actually also conventional as long as vipassana nana does not arise, and yet they could reject all other conventional practise like reciting.? They most impt they forget, it is Buddha who is?the one who?taught samatha bhavana and not just only?vipassana bhavana. Buddha teaching is about satipatthana, but Buddha never said that samantha bhavana cannot lead to satipatthana.???It is in the commentaries of anapasati, mahasatipatthana and Visud?that breathing is used?as a?samatha object in samatha bhavana that lead to satipatthana.. I am most happy to discuss, the more dinosaurs?the merrier. :-)?? Cheers Ken O #106565 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study on the development of Jhanas - Virtue jonoabb Hi RobEp Good to see you back again! (106398) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > ... > What do you think of the "to whatever extent I wish" that Citta keeps repeating? Do you think he is mis-speaking or does this semi-enlightened dude have willful volition in play? ;-) I would think that someone as advanced as he is would avoid making statements as if he can control the jhanas through will, rather than realize that they are merely and solely the product of arising conditions. What's up with that? > =============== There are references of this kind throughout the texts. When a wholesome state has been developed to the extent that it becomes a power (baala), it is said to be "unshakeable by its opposite". So it'd be quite appropriate to say, speaking conventionally (as people do most of the time ;-)), that the power can be exercised at will, notwithstanding the understanding on the part of the speaker that the wholesome state is nonetheless, as you correctly put it, merely and solely the product of arising conditions. Hoping you'll find it worthwhile to stick around for a while. Jon #106566 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:40 pm Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg jonoabb Hi Mike (106493) > ... > Mike: Thanks for those observations. I guess I'm still thinking of "self" in the same way I would say that "emergent phenomena", arise out of complex systems (e.g. lasing, superconductivity, biological evolution). > =============== As I understand the teachings, any idea there may be of self is an illusory one. It is an idea that is not based on anything that can be verified by direct experience in the ultimate sense. > =============== > Mike: What you are saying goes to the heart of what I was referring to further down, when I questioned what exactly we mean by saying that conceptual phenomena such as the self "don't exist". As I understand it, you are saying that there is a difference between the nonexistence of conceptual phenomena and the fact that we can, in principle, analyse the laser amplifiers in the optical links that allow us to talk to each other into constituent parts. That even if we (again in principle) analyse all ultimate phenomena that went into the "creation" of self, we would conclude that "there is nothing there". > =============== The task, as I see it, is not to analyse the ultimate phenomena that go into the creation of the idea of self (that would not be possible), but to understand the true nature of (any) presently arising ultimate phenomena. In other words, the misconception of self cannot be removed by focusing on how the idea comes to be held in the first place, but only by coming to understand more about the world of the present moment as it actually is. > =============== > Mike: I can see what you mean here, but is is possible to point to some references to the "dhammas exhibit characteristics that are capable of being understood"? I can have a look through the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, but you might have something more specific. > =============== A couple of references come to mind (there would be many others). First, there is the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta ("Discourse on the Root of Existence") M1. The sutta begins with the words: "I will teach you, bhikkhus, the exposition of the root of all things ["dhammas"]." The commentary elaborates on the meaning of "dhammas", and the sub-commentary on the aspect of characteristics that are capable of being understood. << << << CY: Here the word [dhammas] occurs in the sense of things endowed with a specific nature (sabhaava). This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." SUB.CY.: "They bear their own characteristics": [T]hese are mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributions as that of a "being," etc. ... These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. ... Or else they are borne, they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas. >> >> >> (Bhikkhu Bodhi "The Discourse on the Root of Existence", BPS) Secondly, Part III of the Visuddhimagga, comprising Chapters XIV to XXIII, deals with Understanding (Panna). It begins with a general treatment of panna. It explains: "Now the things [dhammas] classed as aggregates [khandha], bases [ayatana], elements [dhatu], faculties [indriya], truths [sacca], dependent origination [paticca-samuppada], etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, ..." (Ch XIV, par. 32). Hope these cover the area of interest. Jon #106567 From: "Rob" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > What do you understand by satipatthana? I could get rather extensive here. I'll try to keep it relatively simple. :) First, I think mindfulness, in one the Suttas {AN 4.41}, is listed as the third cultivation of concentration? Right now, I see this as, or a form of, moment-moment concentration {khanika samadhi}. I think that concept is from commentaries, not the Suttas? I am curious if another concept from commentaries; the three stages / levels -- preliminary, access / neighborhood, and attained would apply here; or only to Fixed Concentration {Appana Samadhi}. What I am toying with is / are the four frames of mindfulness. Is cattaro satipat.t.hana the correct term? I see a parallel between the four frames and the first 4 khandas; almost certainly the first two. Interesting that the 4th cultivation in the Sutta I mentioned appears to be observation of the rising and falling of all 5 khandas? I see a clearer parallel between the 4 vipallasa and the four frames; with the 4th vipallasa {Distortions of subha} perhaps corresponding to the first frame {body}, the 2nd {sukha} to the second {vedana}, the 1st {nicca} to the third {citta}, and the 3rd {self} to the fourth {dhammas}. What I mean by toying is that I am working on the first two; and trying to develop more of a flowing presence of mind / alertness / sensitivity / consideration; as opposed to being robotic, awkward, preoccupied, spacey, or on auto-pilot. My views are my views, but still very tentative. They are derived mostly from experience, partly from reading, and then matching the two. I try to read from as many sources as time and funds allow. > May I ask where you live? I dwell on the back roads by the rivers of our memories. :) Rural Northeast Illinois, southeast of Chicago, near the Kankakee River. with palms together robin #106568 From: "Rob" Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Robin. > Welcome here and thank you for your interesting introduction. You > have quite a program. > I opt for the Pali technical terms, but these are not so technical as > you would believe. They pertain to our daily life now. That is my thinking too. Something is what it is. The general principles are non-different from the particular examples. The abstract concepts point to the concrete examples. If that makes any sense. >Which terms you are in particular interested in? Too many to list right now. :) One thing I have noticed, off hand, is that lists of the Four Vipallasa are consistent on three of them; distortions of bliss {sukha}, constancy {nicca}, and self {atta}. The other is sometimes given as a distortion of beauty {subha} and sometimes of purity {suddha}. It is interesting that the same Chinese word is/was commonly used to translate both subha and suddha. > As to satipa.t.thaana, it helps to understand more the Abhidhamma, > and here we are with what you name technical terms. The Dhamma is > very precise and very subtle. > Nina. I have read some excerpts from 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life.' Is that your work? with palms together robin #106569 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:11 am Subject: Stilling Desire Stops the Yearning! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Stilling Desire and Lust stops the Yearning! The Blessed Buddha once said: Friends, you should abandon all desire and any lust for whatever there is impermanent, vanishing, and neither me, nor mine, nor owned by any self! And what is impermanent, suffering & neither me, nor mine, nor any self? The eyes and all forms are impermanent, suffering, and all impersonal... The ears and all sounds are transient, affliction, and without any self... The nose and all smells are fleeting, miserable, and not belonging to any.. The tongue & all flavours are temporary, addictive, and always ownerless. The body and all touches are passing, obsessive, remote, alien, & non-self! The mind and all thoughts are momentary, imaginary and without a core... Friends, you should eliminate all desire and any lust for whatever there is impermanent, suffering, and impersonal, whether these appearances are past, present or future, internal or external, high or low, fine or gross, far or near... That will indeed ease your well-fare for a long, long time... Why so? Because - Craving in itself! - is the very cause of all Suffering... This is the 2nd Noble Truth, unheard of before, the Buddha discovered it! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [149-151] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. The abandoning of desire & lust: 168-183. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106570 From: "colette" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello ksheri3 Hi Rob, NEVER, EVER, distrust your auto-pilot. It's there on your console for a reason. Getting tired, getting frustrated, etc happens to any and everyone. Stepping back, stepping away, from the situation for a few seconds allows you the chance to get those "Winds" and Prana flowing properly and/or smoothly. In that case the auto-pilot is wonderful to have sitting there waiting to be turned on. Welcome to the DSG BTW. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > What do you understand by satipatthana? > > I could get rather extensive here. I'll try to keep it relatively simple. :) > > First, I think mindfulness, in one the Suttas {AN 4.41}, is listed as the third cultivation of concentration? Right now, I see this as, or a form of, moment-moment concentration {khanika samadhi}. I think that concept is from commentaries, not the Suttas? I am curious if another concept from commentaries; the three stages / levels -- preliminary, access / neighborhood, and attained would apply here; or only to Fixed Concentration {Appana Samadhi}. > > What I am toying with is / are the four frames of mindfulness. Is cattaro satipat.t.hana the correct term? I see a parallel between the four frames and the first 4 khandas; almost certainly the first two. Interesting that the 4th cultivation in the Sutta I mentioned appears to be observation of the rising and falling of all 5 khandas? > > I see a clearer parallel between the 4 vipallasa and the four frames; with the 4th vipallasa {Distortions of subha} perhaps corresponding to the first frame {body}, the 2nd {sukha} to the second {vedana}, the 1st {nicca} to the third {citta}, and the 3rd {self} to the fourth {dhammas}. <...> #106571 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: Sarah: The rules were laid down, one by one as a need arose, for those who hadn't seen the light, as Sukin mentioned...I think that as soon as we introduce such *shoulds*, we're losing the plot..... Lobha, wishing for results again...." Scott: Lately, we have Ken O. suggesting that there are many 'methods' clearly in the texts, and this seems in contradistinction to the so-called 'standard DSG' (as if 'DSG' were a religion unto itself for crying out loud). He has just recently asked you 'can one sense door or mind door process listen to words?' Sound of voice can be object condition for 'successive minds' if I am not mistaken. Reading that the Buddha tells us we should think one way and not another can be condition for successive kusala minds. Sarah: "So this comes very naturally for you - it's not because you think you *should* do it. You've often referred to stupas, relics and so on. When I'm at the Holy Places, I just do what I feel inclined to do at the time. No one has ever set any rule or suggested otherwise. ...Again, it'll just depend on conditions." Scott: I always think of 'naturally' to mean that when certain conditions obtain certain dhammas arise 'naturally' - that is these dhammas are arising because it is natural for them to do so given the conditions. My lighting of a candle comes naturally, as you say, but it may not something that 'should' be done. Sarah: "And if one went again in order to have more kusala, that would just be attachment, even silabbataparamasa depending... It doesn't mean one doesn't notice when kusala arises, however, as Ken did." Scott: Just to clarify - would going in order to have kusala rule out having kusala or simply be irrelevant? In other words, would kusala arise or not independent of one thinking that going would be condition for it? If one follows a rule ('thus should ye train yourselves'), for example, the exhortation to examine whether or not one lives 'uncontrolled' or 'well-controlled' (Sacittasutta.m, AN 10,6) is the introspection (sacittapariyaayakusalo) that one engages in, as described by the Buddha, kusala or akusala? S: "You were having a discussion with Ken O about a Vism passage - a 'should' reciting passage. Instead of reading/translating it as 'should recite', it can be read as may be recited. Again, it's the understanding of conditioned dhammas that is important." Scott: Yes, Ken O. has become rather adamant about this lately. And you and I have discussed the 'may be' aspect of things. How do you understand the Buddha's oft-stated 'thus you should train yourselves (sikkhitabba.m)?' S: "...The dhamma is about understanding conditioned realities as anatta after all, not about attempting to make them behave in any way whatsoever..." Scott: Anatta makes sense to me. In this case you are referring to satipa.t.thaana. What about other apparently mundane, conventional things the Buddha refers to when he says, 'thus, monks, should ye train yourselves?' Sincerely, Scott. #106572 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 3:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Ken O (and Sarah), ------------- S: > >As Ken H suggested, I think we need to review and agree on some basics first: > > KO: > sure why not :-) -------------- This reminds me of one of those "interventions" where your friends rescue you from a brainwashing cult. :-) ------------------------ S: > > At this moment are you walking forward? > > > > Is there not seeing now? Is visible object not seen now? Can > > there be awareness and understanding now? If there is awareness > > now of visible object, is that not meditation? Do we need to walk > > forward or take any action at all in order for realities to > >appear now? KO: > Maybe I should ask you this question, can one sense door or mind door process listen to words. ----------------------- We'll ask the questions! What can you tell us about the dhammas that have arisen now? ------------------------- KO: > If you could answer this questions, then it would answer your answer on walking forward. -------------------------- No it wouldn't; Saraha was asking about dhammas. When a monk (someone who is developing satipatthana) is walking he has direct right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned dhamma. The concept of walking is not a conditioned dhamma. It is something known by ordinary folk and by animals. ------------------------------- KO: > Oh also that you have to argue with the ancient masters who wrote the commentaries and Visud about samatha bhavana on walking, reciting and breathing. You mean the ancient masters dont understand visible objects :-). Why do they write about these practises then if it is not for the sake of development of panna. ------------------------------- According to the Buddha's teaching, there is ultimately no practice (in the conventional sense). The Buddha and his monks still walked and talked, but without believing in any reality other than paramattha dhammas. Dhammas arise, perform their conditioning functions, and fall away. In so doing, they can create the impression of deliberate activities, but that's all - an impression, a concept. In reality there are just dhammas - flowing on disinterestedly. ----------------------------- KO: > Do you think panna could condition to arise without first being condition by listening and reading of dhammas? ----------------------------- It's true that panna cannot be conditioned to arise now unless there has been panna in the past. Some of the dhammas with which panna arose in the past would have known concepts of reading and discussing, but without any false notions of the ultimate reality of those things. They knew there were only dhammas, doing whatever they had been conditioned to do. -------------------------------------------- KO: > Can you explain why listening and reading is not a method? -------------------------------------------- Firstly, it is not a method because there is no such thing as method. There are only dhammas. Secondly, there can be listening and reading without belief in the existence of a method. (As to whether there can be *formal* vipassana meditation without belief in the existence of a method, that's another matter. It seems to me there can't, but I am willing to listen to arguments on that.) --------------------------------------------------------------- KO: > Does understanding reality means one should just listen and read and other practises is irrelevant? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I think so. The only factors essential for satipatthana are listening to the Dhamma with panna, and considering the Dhamma with panna. When the texts mention other essential factors (such as suppression of the five hindrances) they are talking about samatha bhavana, not vipassana. ------------------------------------ KO: > If it is irrelevant why did Visud and the texts describe the methods in the samatha bhavana. ------------------------------------ They mention the factors leading to samatha for a variety of reasons, just as they mention the factors leading to dana and sila for a variety of reasons. ----------------------------------------------------- KO : > It is the thinking of the dinosaurs that just understanding this moment nothing else matter, they forget that this moment is conditioned by the development of panna through conventional actions like listening and reading and discussion. ---------------------------------------------------- Right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned dhamma *is* satipatthana. So what else could a satipatthana student be interested in? ------------------------- KO: > They forget that this moment is an act, an interest, an effort because panna only understand dont act, interest or effort. They only think panna is the only faculty, they forget about faith, energy, concentraton and mindfulness facultiies which could condition the arising of panna at this moment. They forget, their present moment of the understanding about reality is actually also conventional as long as vipassana nana does not arise, and yet they could reject all other conventional practise like reciting. They most impt they forget, it is Buddha who is the one who taught samatha bhavana and not just only vipassana bhavana. --------------------------- The Buddha taught "Dhamma" which means he taught "the way things are." That is, he taught the way they are *now*. If there is no samatha now, then the Dhamma teaches us to know there is no samatha now. With that knowing, there is samatha (calm). And that is the only way taught by the Buddha. The conventional way - of trying to make samatha arise in the future - will never lead to satipatthana. -------------- KO: > Buddha teaching is about satipatthana, but Buddha never said that samantha bhavana cannot lead to satipatthana. --------------- The only factors leading to satipatthana are 'hearing the true Dhamma' and 'wise consideration' of the Dhamma that has been heard. ------------------------------ KO: > It is in the commentaries of anapasati, mahasatipatthana and Visud that breathing is used as a samatha object in samatha bhavana that lead to satipatthana. ------------------------------- In extremely rare cases - where Buddhas and 'Buddhas Sons' are concerned - jhana factors can become objects of satipatthana. But that doesn't mean, even for them, that jhana leads to satipatthana. ------------------------ KO: > I am most happy to discuss, the more dinosaurs the merrier. :-) ------------------------ That's good, because you are not going anywhere until you have seen the error of your ways! :-) Ken H #106573 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 4:42 am Subject: Re: Character encoding ptaus1 Hi all, Part 2 - here we deal with the most common problems with encodings 1. The simplest problem is when a message/text is typed in one encoding and then viewed/read in a different one. This can be easily resolved by switching manually to the original encoding if it's known. Hence, it'd be good if we all try to stick to Unicode (UTF-8) as the default encoding. 2. Problems can also occur when typing with a keyboard layout based on a different encoding. For example, default English keyboard layout on a mac is based on Western (MacRoman) encoding, while the one in Windows is based on Western (Windows) encoding. These are very similar to Unicode-based keyboard layouts (meaning the assigned numbers are the same for most common characters). But, mac and Windows keyboard layouts for non-English operating systems tend to differ more substantially and the same applies to keyboard layouts that were custom-made to handle characters with diacritics. All this basically means that if your keyboard layout is Unicode-based, then what you are typing is transformed into numbers which browsers set to Unicode will be able to understand and translate perfectly into the characters you originally typed. Otherwise, there's room for error depending on how different your keyboard layout is from Unicode-based layouts (i.e. how much the numbers for a character differ). 3. Old software - some old applications do not support Unicode at all. For example, when I type in my Word for Mac from 2001, it can only handle MacRoman encoding. So if I type there and then copy that text into my DSG reply window on yahoo, there will be problems, in particular with punctuation signs like "",',-, etc, not to mention the diacritics. That's why it's best to type replies in yahoo itself. On a mac, if your text-editor doesn't support Unicode - you can use TextEdit application that comes in the OSX bundle and supports Unicode. Thankfully, all newer versions of text-editors on both mac and Windows are now complying with Unicode standard. End of part 2 - next time we look at fonts, and then into how to change the encoding and keyboard layouts manually. Best wishes pt #106574 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:06 am Subject: Re: Character encoding ptaus1 Hi Robin, Hopefully, in these series on encoding I'll touch on some of the topics you're after. If not, you can then ask me to look at your particular problems more closely. Though I'm not an expert and just reporting here what I've learned so far, but would be glad to help if I can. Best wishes pt > Robin: I pretty much gave up trying to use the diacritical marks in yahoo. I have tried changing the character encoding setting in my browser; but the results are inconsistent. It is is even worse trying to use Pali, Sanskrit, or Chinese text. The other thing is, not everyone has the same font packages. From what I gather, it is just something we have to be patient with. I look forward to your next post on this. #106575 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Character encoding ptaus1 Dear Nina, If you like, you can let us know what's the problem you're having with the printer. Maybe someone here will know how to help solve the problem. As for encoding directions, no problem, whenever you find the time for it is fine. Hopefully what I write about encoding here on the list will also help. Best wishes pt > I did not forget your useful directions, but just now I have problems > with the proofreading the printer gave me, takes a lot of time. Many > things to be corrected. > also my Abhidhamma series is waiting for me, #106576 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:38 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg mikenz66 Hi Jon, Thanks for digging out the references. Very helpful. Best Wishes, Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: ... > > Mike: I can see what you mean here, but is is possible to point to some references to the "dhammas exhibit characteristics that are capable of being understood"? I can have a look through the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, but you might have something more specific. > > =============== > > A couple of references come to mind (there would be many others). > > First, there is the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta ("Discourse on the Root of Existence") M1. > > The sutta begins with the words: "I will teach you, bhikkhus, the exposition of the root of all things ["dhammas"]." The commentary elaborates on the meaning of "dhammas", and the sub-commentary on the aspect of characteristics that are capable of being understood. > > << << << > CY: Here the word [dhammas] occurs in the sense of things endowed with a specific nature (sabhaava). This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." > > SUB.CY.: "They bear their own characteristics": [T]hese are mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributions as that of a "being," etc. ... These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. ... Or else they are borne, they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas. > >> >> >> > > (Bhikkhu Bodhi "The Discourse on the Root of Existence", BPS) > > Secondly, Part III of the Visuddhimagga, comprising Chapters XIV to XXIII, deals with Understanding (Panna). It begins with a general treatment of panna. It explains: "Now the things [dhammas] classed as aggregates [khandha], bases [ayatana], elements [dhatu], faculties [indriya], truths [sacca], dependent origination [paticca-samuppada], etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, ..." (Ch XIV, par. 32). > > Hope these cover the area of interest. > > Jon > #106577 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:29 am Subject: Learn Abhidharma the easy way :: Chethasika Samprayoga Sankya (Association totals) gemunu.rohana Apart from the 7 Chethasika which are unavoidable in any chitta (7 Sarwa Chitta Sadarana in 52 chethasika), The different Chethasika can associate with only selected chitta out of 89 (or 121) of them. When looking from Chethasika point of view, total number of Chitta each Chethasika can associate with are listed in this illustration. When the associated Chitta has to be counted from individual Lokoththara Chitta, total Chitta to be taken must be 121, total should be 89 otherwise. The illustration is available at: http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/2010/04/chethasika-samprayoga-sankya.html May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! Visit http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/ for freely downloadable Dharma content. #106578 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Dear Robin, Op 6-apr-2010, om 1:24 heeft Rob het volgende geschreven: > Which terms you are in particular interested in? > > Too many to list right now. :) ------ N: If you like, only one term at a time could be discussed. I could not manage more. ------ > > R: I have read some excerpts from 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life.' Is > that your work? -------- N: Yes. With this book one should go slowly, and for discussion only one page at a time would be enough. Nina. #106579 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Two Kens & Sarah - In a message dated 4/5/2010 11:03:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Ken O (and Sarah), ------------- S: > >As Ken H suggested, I think we need to review and agree on some basics first: > > KO: > sure why not :-) -------------- This reminds me of one of those "interventions" where your friends rescue you from a brainwashing cult. :-) ------------------------ S: > > At this moment are you walking forward? > > > > Is there not seeing now? Is visible object not seen now? Can > > there be awareness and understanding now? If there is awareness > > now of visible object, is that not meditation? Do we need to walk > > forward or take any action at all in order for realities to > >appear now? KO: > Maybe I should ask you this question, can one sense door or mind door process listen to words. ----------------------- We'll ask the questions! What can you tell us about the dhammas that have arisen now? ---------------------------------------------------------- Except for unsighted or unconscious persons, does not everyone see now? Except for those with severe mental impairment, doesn't everyone have awareness and understanding to some degree? Is that meditation? If yes, then everyone meditates! Well, that just ain't so! Meditation is a process of suspending the hindrances and then following with further stages of relinquishment. That is NOT something that everyone engages in or even approaches. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- KO: > If you could answer this questions, then it would answer your answer on walking forward. -------------------------- No it wouldn't; Saraha was asking about dhammas. When a monk (someone who is developing satipatthana) is walking he has direct right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned dhamma. The concept of walking is not a conditioned dhamma. It is something known by ordinary folk and by animals. ------------------------------- KO: > Oh also that you have to argue with the ancient masters who wrote the commentaries and Visud about samatha bhavana on walking, reciting and breathing. You mean the ancient masters dont understand visible objects :-). Why do they write about these practises then if it is not for the sake of development of panna. ------------------------------- According to the Buddha's teaching, there is ultimately no practice (in the conventional sense). The Buddha and his monks still walked and talked, but without believing in any reality other than paramattha dhammas. Dhammas arise, perform their conditioning functions, and fall away. In so doing, they can create the impression of deliberate activities, but that's all - an impression, a concept. In reality there are just dhammas - flowing on disinterestedly. ----------------------------------------------------------- So, it seems that you are saying, KenH, that true Dhamma practice, not that icky conventional stuff, is a matter of what one believes and disbelieves! It also seems that you are saying that the Buddha and his monks never did anything for any purpose. (I think I've seen that film. Was it the Invasion of the Body Snatchers or The Night of the Living Dead. I'm not sure.) ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- KO: > Do you think panna could condition to arise without first being condition by listening and reading of dhammas? ----------------------------- It's true that panna cannot be conditioned to arise now unless there has been panna in the past. Some of the dhammas with which panna arose in the past would have known concepts of reading and discussing, but without any false notions of the ultimate reality of those things. They knew there were only dhammas, doing whatever they had been conditioned to do. -------------------------------------------- KO: > Can you explain why listening and reading is not a method? -------------------------------------------- Firstly, it is not a method because there is no such thing as method. There are only dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------- What should one think of a physicist who says that there is no particle accelerator, but only subatomic particles? -------------------------------------------------------- =================================== I'm stopping at this point, because I'm becoming a bit of a wise ass, and that's not so nice. With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #106580 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What IS the Noble Eightfold Path nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-apr-2010, om 19:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My question is as follows: Most of this sutta is devoted to > discussing the > 4 foundations of mindfulness and the development of them in terms of > calmly focusing on them without craving or upset, on their > origination, and on > their cessation. And then, at the very end of the sutta, the Buddha > addresses "the path of practice (leading) to the development of the > frames of > reference," and he identifies that as the N8P. So, it seems that > the Buddha has > the N8P coming first, not last, and that being the path leading to > the 4 > foundations of mindfulness. Does this not give you at least some > pause? ------------- N: As to focussing, B.B. has contemplating. It is useful to consider more translations, since different people will translate according to their inclinations and temperament. To me focussing seems to emphasize concentration whereas, as you know, I rather stress understanding. As to origination and cessation, this has been repeated after each section. The momentary arising and falling away of dhammas has to be realized and also origination and cessation have to be realized according to the D.O. Dhammas arise so long as there are conditions, but when ignorance has been eradicated there is the ceasing of these conditions. This is not just realized by thinking or intellectual understanding, but by direct understanding. ------- Co and subco to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta, MOdes of deprotment (by Ven. Soma: Way of Mindfulness): -------------- You remarked: ----- N: The eightfold Path will have to be developed for a long, long time. It is right that you refer to the momentary aspect, but see above, there is more to it. The Path consists of cetasikas and for me this is a helpful reminder that the path develops, not "I develop it". Usually five cetasikas arise at the same time, and if there is an opportunity, also one of the three abstinences arises as well. Only when the Path is lokuttara all eight factors arise. ------- Nina. #106581 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:45 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 7. Kamma and Result. nilovg > Dear friends, > > Kamma and Result. > > As we have seen, three cetasikas are unwholesome roots, akusala > hetus: lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) and moha (ignorance). > Three cetasikas are beautiful roots, sobhana hetus: non-attachment, > alobha, non-aversion, adosa, and pa~n~naa. > Akusala hetus can motivate ill deeds through body, speech or mind. > Ill deeds are called in P?li: akusala kamma. Kamma is the cetasika > (mental factor arising with the citta) which is intention or > volition, in Pali: cetanaa. However, the word ?kamma'' is also used > in a more general sense for the deeds which are intended by > cetanaa. The term kamma-patha (literally ?course of action'') is > used as well in this sense. There are akusala kamma-pathas and > kusala kamma-pathas, ill deeds and good deeds, accomplished through > body, speech and mind. As regards akusala kamma-patha, there are > ten akusala kamma-pathas and these are conditioned by lobha, dosa > and moha. They are: killing, stealing, sexual misbehaviour, lying, > slandering, rude speech, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and > wrong view (di.t.thi). > Sobhana cetasikas motivate good deeds such as generosity, > abstention from ill deeds, mental development which includes > samatha and vipassanaa. > Whatever conduct we follow in daily life, it is conditioned by the > wholesome or unwholesome roots accumulated from life to life. There > is no self who can determine to do wrong or to do what is right, it > is conditioned by the roots and many other factors. Each moment, > whatever we do, is conditioned. > > When we are generous, helping others or paying respect, we may > believe that there are only kusala cittas. However, what we take > for wholesome may be motivated by akusala, such as conceit or being > intent on some advantage for ourselves. Kusala cittas and akusala > cittas alternate in our life. This shows how deeply rooted > defilements are. > > Kamma is a mental activity which can be accumulated. Since cittas > that arise and fall away succeed one another in an unbroken series, > the force of kamma is carried on from one moment of citta to the > next moment of citta, from one life to the next life. In this way > kamma is capable to produce its result later on. A good deed, > kusala kamma, can produce a pleasant result, and an evil deed can > produce an unpleasant result. Kamma produces result at the first > moment of life: it produces rebirth-consciousness in a happy plane > of existence such as the human plane or a heavenly plane, or in an > unhappy plane of existence such as a hell plane or the animal world. > Throughout our life kamma produces seeing, hearing and the other > sense-impressions that are vip?kacittas, cittas that are results. > Vip?kacittas are neither kusala cittas nor akusala cittas. Seeing a > pleasant object is the result of kusala kamma and seeing an > unpleasant object is the result of akusala kamma. If there is right > understanding of the citta that is cause and the citta that is > result we shall know the meaning of anattaa. We shall come to > understand that there is no self who can cause the arising of > pleasant or unpleasant experiences through the senses. Due to kamma > gain and loss, praise and blame alternate in our life. > > ******* > Nina. > #106582 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >------------ --------- -- > >We'll ask the questions! What can you tell us about the dhammas that have arisen now? > No it wouldn't; Saraha was asking about dhammas. When a monk (someone who is developing satipatthana) is walking he has direct right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned dhamma. The concept of walking is not a conditioned dhamma. It is something known by ordinary folk and by animals. >------------ --------- ---- KO:??Because the answer lies in the other.? ?If one could answer how does one listen, that would answer how does one move forward.??? Also is your?walking?conceptuallly or your walking is conditioned by cetana.? We have to be clear about the terms we are using.? Ordinary folk and animals when they walk, do they clearly comprehen on the walking or they just walk.? Everyone walks so what is the difference.?? Actions or the accompanying cetasikas.? When one is clear about this, then one will not have any problem understanding what is written in the Visud.? Because of mixing up such terms and not understanding the terms properly,?one is confused and came up with assumptions.? Just like in the Path of Discrimination - what is gratification views?? the view is not the gratification and the gratification is not the view, view is one and the gratifiction is another; the view and the gratification [together] are called the (hedonistic) gratification view.?? >------------ --------- --------- - > >According to the Buddha's teaching, there is ultimately no practice (in the conventional sense). The Buddha and his monks still walked and talked, but without believing in any reality other than paramattha dhammas. Dhammas arise, perform their conditioning functions, and fall away. In so doing, they can create the impression of deliberate activities, but that's all - an impression, a concept. In reality there are just dhammas - flowing on disinterestedly. > >>It's true that panna cannot be conditioned to arise now unless there has been panna in the past. Some of the dhammas with which panna arose in the past would have known concepts of reading and discussing, but without any false notions of the ultimate reality of those things. They knew there were only dhammas, doing whatever they had been conditioned to do. ? > >Firstly, it is not a method because there is no such thing as method. There are only dhammas. > >Secondly, there can be listening and reading without belief in the existence of a method. > >(As to whether there can be *formal* vipassana meditation without belief in the existence of a method, that's another matter. It seems to me there can't, but I am willing to listen to arguments on that.) > ? >------------ --------- -------- KO:? No one doubt that the ancient master clearly comprehend their actions like walking forward etc.? But could they have come to this understanding without listening to the dhamma.?? In the commentary of Anapsati and Satipatthana such comprehension is after samantha bhavana of the breathing object, while in the suttas, like those in DN2 it is before the development of jhanas.?? Ultimately there is only paramatha dhamma, but does this understanding forestall the practise of that is written in the Visud and the Vinaya Rules.? Just like you are listening to dhamma and reading dhamma books, does that action prevent you from the understanding of paramatha dhamma.? Rather these are the conventional actions that aided the understanding.? Without them, no one can understand dhamma except for the Buddhas.??? Also these methods are describe in Visud so I cannot said there is none.? Even if one said there is only dhamma,?how does one know it is dhamma without first conventional action in listening.? Again as I said earlier, listening and reading is also a method. ? ? >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > >Yes, I think so. The only factors essential for satipatthana are listening to the Dhamma with panna, and considering the Dhamma with panna. When the texts mention other essential factors (such as suppression of the five hindrances) they are talking about samatha bhavana, not vipassana. >They mention the factors leading to samatha for a variety of reasons, just as they mention the factors leading to dana and sila for a variety of reasons. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - KO:? Yes agreed for a variety of reasons because there are a variety of temperaments of disciples.? Due to that, there are a variety of samatha objects to suit them.? Due to that there are vipassana bhavana and samatha bhavana. ? >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- > >Right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned dhamma *is* satipatthana. So what else could a satipatthana student be interested in? ? >The Buddha taught "Dhamma" which means he taught "the way things are." That is, he taught the way they are *now*. > >If there is no samatha now, then the Dhamma teaches us to know there is no samatha now. With that knowing, there is samatha (calm). And that is the only way taught by the Buddha. The conventional way - of trying to make samatha arise in the future - will never lead to satipatthana. > > >The only factors leading to satipatthana are 'hearing the true Dhamma' and 'wise consideration' of the Dhamma that has been heard. ? > >In extremely rare cases - where Buddhas and 'Buddhas Sons' are concerned - jhana factors can become objects of satipatthana. But that doesn't mean, even for them, that jhana leads to satipatthana. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- ? KO:? What you said, do?not accord with the texts.? Also the commentaries and Visud is clear that samantha bhavana leads to vipassana nana by having the insight of defining materality and immateriality.??? Also to make samatha to arise in the future is base on your assumption, because one forgets that faith for the dhamma or recollection of Buddha virtues, can be a paccaya for the arising?of developing samatha bhavana that leads to insight.? Just like when you read dhamma books, it is the understanding that conditions your cetana and chanda?to read more and more.? Or it could just the?faith that dhamma is good, one reads.?? ? ? Kind regards Ken O #106583 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >I also disagree with your comments to Alex that: > >1. # 106340, "All development starts by having faith in the dhamma so does virtue." KO:??? There must be faith first before we first embark the understanding path, without convictions, how could one wanted to learn dhamma in the first place.? Thereafer panna is the forerunner, but then we cannot discount faith as an impt faculty to help in to condition understanding to arise.??The Path of Discrimination, Treatise of Faculties,?pg 234, para 130 <> >2. # 106339, "In order to develop consciousness, first one must establish virtue and not establish concentration. " KO: Virture is fivefold by restraint: by commuity rules, by mindfuless, by knowledge, by patience and?by energy.? I hope this explains.??Also I should have put add <> this is the direct quote from?the verse in the email. >Enjoying all your lively discussions with others - actually, I much prefer reading those discussions to participating in them when you're in war-mongering mode:-). KO:? It is a long times since I am in a war-mongering mode :-).? And this time with dinosaurs,?there going to be intersting discussions.? I am hoping more dinosuars will engage me in these discussions, the more the merrier.? Cheers Kind regards. Ken O #106584 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:04 pm Subject: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Hi according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is it only the higher powers that aren't possible now? Thanks, Kevin #106585 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Jhana still possible? truth_aerator Hello Kevin, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Hi according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is it only the higher powers that aren't possible now? > > Thanks, > > Kevin > > Yes. http://www.triplegem.plus.com/individu.htm With metta, Alex #106586 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Hi Alex. Thanks. You wrote: Hello Kevin, all, >dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Kevin: Hi according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is it only the higher powers that aren't possible now? Alex: Yes. http://www.triplege m.plus.com/ individu. htm With metta, Alex Kevin: Alex, how does that illustrate that jhana is possible? Thanks, Kevin F. #106587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? nilovg Dear Kevin, We cannot know. A monk who has attained jhaana is not allowed to let others know. It is rather speculative, don't you think so? We would be engaged with what others are doing or not doing. Knowing about this does not help us with the development of understanding the present reality. I need lots and lots of reminders of ardour, perseverance, viriya, since all these are needed to develop pa~n~naa together with all the perfections. I think of the shortness of life these days and about the fact that we have no time to lose. Nina. Op 6-apr-2010, om 20:33 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is > it only the higher powers that aren't possible now? #106588 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? truth_aerator Hi Kevin, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > > > Hi Alex. Thanks. You wrote: > > > > Hello Kevin, all, > > >dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > > Kevin: Hi according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is it only the higher powers that aren't possible now? > > Alex: Yes. > > http://www.triplege m.plus.com/ individu. htm > > With metta, > > Alex > > Kevin: Alex, how does that illustrate that jhana is possible? > > Thanks, > > Kevin F. According to that site, there are 4 types of people. Even the lowest type: "(4) A Padaparama : is an individual who * cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime. * can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana." "An individual of the Padaparama class can attain release only within the present Buddha Sasana after rebirth in the deva planes in his next existence, if he can faithfully practise the bodhipakkhiya-Dhammas in his present existence. " http://www.triplegem.plus.com/individu.htm can practice samatha or vipassana. As for CMA, I think it implies that if one is reborn triple-rooted, then one can attain the paths/fruits and the jhanas. As I understand suttas, unless one has commited grave kamma, or has serious result of grave kamma - one can attain jhana if all the conditions are right. With metta, Alex #106589 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. I understand what you said about these things not being necessary for the development of insight. Then again, life ending is only a concept too, I think. The "person" reborn in the next one is only a concept too. There is no need to have any fear. Dhammas will arise and pass away. They are not-self. Only when anatta is understood very clearly conceptually are there conditions for traversing all the stages of insight, I believe. So there is no need to think of a person that should have ardour. There is none, only dhammas. You are correct that a monk cannot state that he has attained the jhana. However, my main wonder was if there were any relevant mentions in the Commentaries about it's possibility at this time for Buddhists. I think I remember reading or hearing that at this time, no one can attain the higher powers (I may be wrong). But I was wondering if anything has been written about people attaining jhana at all. Thank you for your patience and your great reply, Kevin Nina Wrote: Dear Kevin, We cannot know. A monk who has attained jhaana is not allowed to let others know. It is rather speculative, don't you think so? We would be engaged with what others are doing or not doing. Knowing about this does not help us with the development of understanding the present reality. I need lots and lots of reminders of ardour, perseverance, viriya, since all these are needed to develop pa~n~naa together with all the perfections. I think of the shortness of life these days and about the fact that we have no time to lose. Nina. Op 6-apr-2010, om 20:33 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: Kevin:> according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is > it only the higher powers that aren't possible now? #106590 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Dear Truth_Aerator, You wrote: ________________________________ From: truth_aerator To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 2:59:40 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? Hi Kevin, all,... As I understand suttas, unless one has commited grave kamma, or has serious result of grave kamma - one can attain jhana if all the conditions are right. Kevin: Yes, but do you understand dhamma? There are many factors present, and when the Buddha talked about meditation, he didn't explain every detail related to the matter each time. For example, if people in a later day with lesser wisdom were unable to attain jhana, he may not give mention of that in a discourse to monks that could attain jhanas during that time. The Commentarial quotes you gave are good, but they only explain that people can attain enlightenment. They don't mention anything about jhana at all that I can see, Alex. Do you equate jhana with enlightenment? Or is there something I missed there? Thanks, Kevin #106591 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? truth_aerator Hello Kevin, all, > Kevin Farrell wrote: > Hi Kevin, all,... > > As I understand suttas, unless one has commited grave kamma, or has serious result of grave kamma - one can attain jhana if all the conditions are right. > > Kevin: Yes, but do you understand dhamma? It depends on what you mean by the above question. I prefer to quote the suttas so in that way there is less of my opinion. > > > There are many factors present, and when the Buddha talked about >meditation, he didn't explain every detail related to the matter >each time. Right. You can't include everything in every single sutta. >For example, if people in a later day with lesser >wisdom were >unable to attain jhana, he may not give mention of that in a >discourse to monks that could attain jhanas during that time. Buddha often spoke of other things then, like morality & ethics. > The Commentarial quotes you gave are good, but they only explain >that people can attain enlightenment. and do samatha & vipassana. Also 37 factors of awakening do contain samadhi. >Do you equate jhana with enlightenment? With N8P, and with samadhi factors found in 37 Factors of Awakening. With metta, Alex #106592 From: "Rob" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:12 pm Subject: Re: Jhana still possible? rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Hi according to the Commentaries is jhana even still possible? Or is it only the higher powers that aren't possible now? > > Thanks, > > Kevin I would think so, that the jhanas are certainly possible. I have read some excerpts of commentaries by Bhikkhu Bodhi and others who describe the processes and factors as if from first hand experience. By higher powers, I assume you mean the 5 or 6 abhinna? My tentative understanding is that the first 5 are mundane attainments that can be acquired through various non-Budhhist practices; and are not necessarily even desirable to pursue. I might be tempted to view the descriptions of them as figurative language. The 6th, if I understand it correctly, is the ultimate goal of vipassana? with palms together robin #106593 From: "Rob" Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Dear Nina, > You are correct that a monk cannot state that he has attained the jhana. That is interesting. I have never heard that. I have read that one not should not boast about attainments; and that if a monk lies about them that would be a grave offense. I have read excerpts from recent commentaries, by people who are alive now; which describe the how to and what {5 hindrances, 3 stages, 5 factors, 8 or 9 levels}of jhana in some detail. Some of those contemporary works might be a waste of time, but a few seem to be authentic. There are also the three famous Theravadin tradition meditation manuals. The fact that the authors of these works describe the jhanas in some detail, and add concepts not found in the suttas, implies that the authors have attained them? That instructions are included implies it is possible for others to apply them? --- Kevin Farrell wrote: > I understand what you said about these things not being necessary for the development of insight. I am picking up an undercurrent of thought there. Another question might be whether cultivation of the jhanas has value? If so, what value? palms together robin http://artsense-robin.blogspot.com/ #106594 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Hi Alex, Rob, everyone else, Alex, you wrote: Kevin:> The Commentarial quotes you gave are good, but they only explain >that people can attain enlightenment. Alex: and do samatha & vipassana. Also 37 factors of awakening do contain samadhi. Kevin:>Do you equate jhana with enlightenment? Alex: With N8P, and with samadhi factors found in 37 Factors of Awakening. With metta, Alex ------- Kevin: Hi Alex. So you equate jhana with Right Concentration then? Nevertheless, we have many threads around here about this already. I'd like to keep this one about the possibility or lack thereof of attaining jhanas in this day and age. P.S. Dear Rob and Alex, I've got to run to work-- I'll have to respond to the rest of the messages later. Thanks, Kev. #106595 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 12:36 am Subject: Detached from Feeling! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Detachment from Feeling gives Immunity towards Suffering! The Blessed Buddha once explained this to some sick bhikkhus: If one keen on mental training feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: "This impermanent pleasure is neither to be clung to, nor indulged in." If he feels a painful feeling, he also understands and observes: "As this pain is transient, it is neither to be clung to, nor engaged in..." If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he similarly notes: "This passing neutral feeling is neither to be clung to, nor delighted in..." When he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it, as if detached from it! When he feels a painful feeling, he feels it, as if detached from it! When he feels a neutral feeling, he feels it, as if detached from it! He feels all feelings as something remote, alien, and not belonging to him. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: "I feel a feeling terminating with the body..." (all bodily feeling!) When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: "I feel a feeling terminating with life..." (all mental feeling!) He understands: With the breakup of this body, at the exhaustion of life, any feeling, neither being delighted in, nor clung to, will cool down right then and there... Just as, bhikkhus, an oil lamp burns depending on the oil and the wick, at the exhaustion of the oil and the wick, the burning flame is extinguished through lack of fuel, exactly so similarly here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu feels a feeling terminating with the body... or terminating with life... He understands: With the breakup of this body, at the very exhaustion of this life, all that is felt, not being indulged in, nor clung to, will vanish right there and then... This - only this - is the end of Suffering! Pleasant feeling induces greed... Painful feeling produces hate... Neither-painful-nor-pleasant neutral feeling causes neglect & thus generates ignorance... <...> Curing even Death The Buddhas are the very best Doctors! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [211-3] section 36: Feeling. Vedana. The Sick-Ward. 7. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106596 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 1:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Ken O), ------ <. . .> KH: > > What can you tell us about the dhammas that have arisen now? > > H: > Except for unsighted or unconscious persons, does not everyone see now? ------ Yes, eye consciousness is occurring in between other kinds of consciousness. -------------------------- H: > Except for those with severe mental impairment, doesn't everyone have awareness and understanding to some degree? -------------------------- In comparison with seeing, sati arises very rarely. Panna even more rarely, especially panna belonging to the eightfold path. ----------------------------------- H: > Is that meditation? If yes, then everyone meditates! ----------------------------------- The extremely rare cittas that contain panna are meditation (bhavana, mental development). They develop all kinds of wholesome consciousness. ----------------------- H: > Well, that just ain't so! Meditation is a process of suspending the hindrances and then following with further stages of relinquishment. That is NOT something that everyone engages in or even approaches. ------------------------ Yes, unfortunately, that kind of thing is the most popularly known meaning of meditation. ------------------------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > According to the Buddha's teaching, there is ultimately no practice (in the conventional sense). The Buddha and his monks still walked and talked, but without believing in any reality other than paramattha dhammas. Dhammas arise, perform their conditioning functions, and fall away. In so doing, they can create the impression of deliberate activities, but that's all - an impression, a concept. In reality there are just dhammas - flowing on disinterestedly. > > H: > So, it seems that you are saying, KenH, that true Dhamma practice, not that icky conventional stuff, is a matter of what one believes and disbelieves! ------------------------------------------- Yes, it is a matter of what one knows to be true and what one knows to be false. ------------------------------------ H: > It also seems that you are saying that the Buddha and his monks never did anything for any purpose. ------------------------------------- I am saying the Buddha and his monks never acted with belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual. ------------------------------------------------ H: > (I think I've seen that film. Was it the Invasion of the Body Snatchers or The Night of the Living Dead. I'm not sure.) ------------------------------------- If you had seen Panna Stares into the Void you would remember. -------------------------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > Firstly, it is not a method because there is no such thing as method. There are only dhammas. > > H: > What should one think of a physicist who says that there is no particle accelerator, but only subatomic particles? ---------------------------------------------------------- I meant, *in reality* there is no such thing as a method (conventional activity). A worldling who worked as a physicist could talk about particle accelerators in two ways: with moha (ignorance of dhammas) and without moha. Even if he had never heard of dhammas he could still talk and act without ignorance of them. I think your hypothetical worldling physicist was trying to make a valid point. In his materialist philosophy there are only the presently arisen sub-atomic particles, and so particle accelerators are just concepts. So he might have kusala consciousness when he says that. But not panna, I wouldn't think. -------------------------- H: > I'm stopping at this point, because I'm becoming a bit of a wise ass, and that's not so nice. ---------------------------- :-) Don't stop on my account, Howard, it's all grist to the mill. Ken H #106597 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/6/2010 9:51:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (and Ken O), ------ <. . .> KH: > > What can you tell us about the dhammas that have arisen now? > > H: > Except for unsighted or unconscious persons, does not everyone see now? ------ Yes, eye consciousness is occurring in between other kinds of consciousness. -------------------------- H: > Except for those with severe mental impairment, doesn't everyone have awareness and understanding to some degree? -------------------------- In comparison with seeing, sati arises very rarely. Panna even more rarely, especially panna belonging to the eightfold path. ----------------------------------- H: > Is that meditation? If yes, then everyone meditates! ----------------------------------- The extremely rare cittas that contain panna are meditation (bhavana, mental development). They develop all kinds of wholesome consciousness. ----------------------- H: > Well, that just ain't so! Meditation is a process of suspending the hindrances and then following with further stages of relinquishment. That is NOT something that everyone engages in or even approaches. ------------------------ Yes, unfortunately, that kind of thing is the most popularly known meaning of meditation. ------------------------------------------------------------ It is Buddhadhamma. ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > According to the Buddha's teaching, there is ultimately no practice (in the conventional sense). ------------------------------------------------------------ I'd like to see a sutta quote to that effect, Ken. -------------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha and his monks still walked and talked, but without believing in any reality other than paramattha dhammas. Dhammas arise, perform their conditioning functions, and fall away. In so doing, they can create the impression of deliberate activities, but that's all - an impression, a concept. In reality there are just dhammas - flowing on disinterestedly. > > H: > So, it seems that you are saying, KenH, that true Dhamma practice, not that icky conventional stuff, is a matter of what one believes and disbelieves! ------------------------------------------- Yes, it is a matter of what one knows to be true and what one knows to be false. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ken, do you claim to KNOW what is true? Are you taking on students? --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ H: > It also seems that you are saying that the Buddha and his monks never did anything for any purpose. ------------------------------------- I am saying the Buddha and his monks never acted with belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual. -------------------------------------------------------- What you call rite and ritual is not what the Buddha called rite and ritual. Please read about rite and ritual in the suttas. Examples of that are "Fasting, sleeping on the ground, and such, Dawn ablutions, chanting Vedic texts, Garb of skins, matted hair and filth, Magic spells and rites and penances, Trickery, deception, blows as well, Ritual washing, rinsing of the mouth, These are caste-marks of the Brahman-folk, Done and practiced for some trifling gain," and dog-duty asceticism, and bathing in the "Holy Ganges" - these are the sorts of things he referred to. -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ H: > (I think I've seen that film. Was it the Invasion of the Body Snatchers or The Night of the Living Dead. I'm not sure.) ------------------------------------- If you had seen Panna Stares into the Void you would remember. -------------------------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > Firstly, it is not a method because there is no such thing as method. There are only dhammas. > > H: > What should one think of a physicist who says that there is no particle accelerator, but only subatomic particles? ---------------------------------------------------------- I meant, *in reality* there is no such thing as a method (conventional activity). A worldling who worked as a physicist could talk about particle accelerators in two ways: with moha (ignorance of dhammas) and without moha. Even if he had never heard of dhammas he could still talk and act without ignorance of them. I think your hypothetical worldling physicist was trying to make a valid point. In his materialist philosophy there are only the presently arisen sub-atomic particles, and so particle accelerators are just concepts. So he might have kusala consciousness when he says that. But not panna, I wouldn't think. -------------------------- H: > I'm stopping at this point, because I'm becoming a bit of a wise ass, and that's not so nice. ---------------------------- :-) Don't stop on my account, Howard, it's all grist to the mill. ------------------------------------------------------------ :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106598 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal Hi Ken, Sorry for the delay in responding. I got a little tired of writing. :-( ======== Ken O: I just wonder why meditation is taken such a negative light other than we know if it is poorly understood. When it is purposedly practise, it is full of miccha ditthi. Do you like to tell me why? One of the reason which I know I always heard it is not natural. S: Let me try to elaborate. Let us say, someone has such accumulations as to truly see harm in lobha in relation to sense contacts, such that he could then begin to take on a ?practice? that would lead to the attainment of access concentration and on to Jhana. 1. What are the odds of such a person being involved in internet discussions? 2. Would he even talk about this to anyone, except maybe someone who can help him with the practice? 3. When approaching such a person, would he do so seeking a technique or would it be to better understand the subject? 4. When he does talk to other ordinary people, would that be about ?practice? or would it be something that the other person can relate to, namely the development of kusala in daily life? 5. Indeed if there is the level of samvega, is there ever any reason for such a person to talk about the different objects of samatha kamathana except the one that he himself has inclinations for? This above case applies only to the person who has not heard the Dhamma. Those who express a desire to develop Right Understanding, the following should also be considered: 1. The path of Samatha development is very different from that of Vipassana. 2. Someone who understands this difference would never encourage Samatha when even Pariyatti understanding could have been encouraged instead. And this is because just as it is at any other time, understanding the present moment is the most appropriate suggestion, so too when someone expresses his desire to develop samatha (knowing that the one does nothing with regard to better understanding the conditioned nature of realities). 3. So when it comes to talking about samatha development with others, he?d sure to be wary about whether or not self-view is involved. 4. When it comes to the idea of ?meditation?, this is already proliferation of attachment and of view with regard to samatha development itself. When tying this with the development of Right Understanding, this must therefore surely involve attachment and the wrong view must then be that of a higher order. So from the perspective of the arising of any dhamma including wrong view, this being because the accumulations for it exist, you could say that this is ?natural? in one sense. But in another sense, when this ?natural? arising is not known and the dictates of wrong view is followed, this is ?unnatural? since instead of the present moment one thinks in terms of the future about something that has not arisen. To give one possible example, when it is natural for someone to sit down to follow the breath, this could be because in daily life breath has on and off been the object of kusala with panna. When on the other hand someone thinks to develop calm by following breath which otherwise has never been the object of any level of kusala, but one happens to read in the Visuddhimagga about it, ;-) this would be unnatural. ========== Ken O: So do you think in ancient time, it is natural to read book:-). Give it a thought, pse do give me your views. S: If they had the Tipitaka written, I?m sure there would be some Arahats reading them, naturally. ;-) ========== Ken O: Regarding another statement I make. <> I think the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma has a better definition which I was trying to explain. Pg 319 para 39 <<(39) What is left, then are concepts, which are of two kinds: a concept of what is made known and a concept as what makes known>> <<(41) But a concept as what makes now is indicated by such as name, naming, etc. It is of six kinds : a concept of something existent, a concept of something non-existent, a concept of the non-existent with the existent, a concept of the existent with the non-existent, a concept of the existent with the existent, a concept of the non-existent with the non-existent. (42) Therein, when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that exist in an ultimate sense, such as materiality and feeling, this is a concept of something existent, But when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that does not exist in ultimate sense, such as earth or mountains, this is a concept of something non-existent. The others should be understood by the combination of both with reference to respectively "one who has the six higher knowledges', 'the sound of a woman', 'eye-consciousness' and 'a king's son'.>> S: So taking into consideration para 42, it all comes down to understanding what is reality and what is concept isn?t it? And when talking about the conventional activity of reading or walking, is there therefore anything other than these two to be known distinctly one form the other? You may not agree with me Ken, but I hope that I have at least shown you why I think the way I do. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #106599 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 6-apr-2010, om 21:03 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > However, my main wonder was if there were any relevant mentions in > the Commentaries about it's possibility at this time for Buddhists. > I think I remember reading or hearing that at this time, no one can > attain the higher powers (I may be wrong). But I was wondering if > anything has been written about people attaining jhana at all. -------- Rob K collected a lot of material in his Abh. forum. I think you are a member? Well worth reading. http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/ It is under study of texts, and then click again: samatha. He also speaks about jhaana at this time. What do you think ? I personally like to be very careful about others' cittas. There are many misunderstandings, people taking for jhaana what is not jhaana. As to higher powers, these can be caused by other factors, wrong concentration, or they are due to experiences in past lives. So many factors we have to take into account. Nina.