#106800 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: Yes Ken O, "show me the posts", in particular "show me the quotes" instead of the wild paraphrases which completely misunderstand what we've all been trying to say to you at length:-). KO: if the paramtha dhamma does not manifest, will one experience it conventionally. To say conventional effort is directed, and paramatha dhamma is not. is it just because on the basis it is conventional? > >As for samatha and samatha bhavana, if there is no understanding now of what samatha is, how can it ever possibly develop? KO: everything is about now, can we experience something that is in the past or something that is in the future. Just like reading and listening isnt that is now. So what is the different? Understanding samatha now does not simply kusala, if it is just kusala, then many of jhanas masters would have been enlighted. It is also about understanding that there is no one in the one that develop samatha. Without virtue, sati and clear comprehension, there is no development of samatha. Kind regards Ken O >So what is samatha? Is there samatha now? > >Metta > >Sarah >===== > > > #106801 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Dieter, Regarding: D: "I am not really surprised to find that meanwhile your very nice response is questioned. Well, in the 'valley of the dried bones' even moisture is suspected... :-)" Scott: It is not Howard's kindness that is being questioned, Dieter. It is the inaccuracy of your statement. The fact that Howard kindly appreciates it has nothing to do with it's flaws. If you are going to post platitudes to Dhamma-savvy readers, then expect to have them read and critiqued. And seriously, do you have to knock the Abhidhamma (on a forum where it is studied and respected) by way of argument? Had you studied it in the first place you would have known about cetanaa and the other sabbacitta cetasikas. Sincerely, Scott. #106802 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:41 pm Subject: Be Good! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Regarding the Best Way to Be: The Blessed Buddha once said: Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati sabbarasam dhammaraso jinati sabbaratim dhammarati jinati tanhakkhayo sabbadukkham jinati. THE SUPREME GIFT The gift of Dhamma surpasses all other gifts. The taste of Truth excels every other taste. The joy of Understanding exceeds any other joy. The elimination of Craving overcomes, quenches & triumphs over all pain, all sorrow, and all suffering ... Dhammapada 354 Be understanding to your perceived enemies. Be loyal to all your good friends. Be strong enough to face the changing world each day. Be weak enough to know you cannot do everything alone. Be generous to those who need your help. Be frugal with that you need yourself. Be wise enough to know, that you do not know everything. Be foolish enough to believe in the unknown miracle. Be willing to share your joys, resources and riches. Be willing to share and bear the sorrows of others. Be a leader, when you see the path others may have missed. Be a follower, when you are shrouded by the mists of uncertainty. Be the first to congratulate an opponent, who succeeds. Be the last to criticize a colleague, who fails. Be sure where your next step will fall, so that you will not tumble. Be sure of your final destination, in case you are going the wrong way. Be loving to those, who love you, and also towards those who don't... Be friendly to those, who do not love you, since then they may change. Above all: Be AWARE ! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106804 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: Sarah: "At that moment of wishing to have more kusala, there is attachment..there can be kusala later..Accumulated kusala is the main condition for kusala later..Remember D.O..." Scott: This, Ken O. would suggest, is what the dinosaurs say. Sarah: "...depends on one's interpretation and accumulations whether the reflections are kusala or akusala....the Buddha is stressing the importance of understanding kusala and akusala, the various dhammas in our life. He's not encouraging anyone to accumulate self-view or an idea that a Self can control anything." Scott: But is he saying to think in a certain way, such as elucidated in the sutta below? Sarah: "Without studying, training, understanding the dhammas now, there will be no development of the path. The studying of these realities (with direct understanding of them) is to be pursued, is to be developed, but by panna, not by Self." Scott: As Ken O. seems to be suggesting, there must be a method to this studying or training - maybe even when no obvious methodical procedure is being followed. We agree that 'study' is effected as pa~n~naa arises. Would it be fair to suggest that 'study' in a conventional sense would also occur? This seems to be one way of making sense of Ken O's argument. One would have to actually read the Dhamma, learn it, consider it - and this would take the form of reading, thinking, discussing, etc. - conventional activities While pa~n~naa proper can arise and take any dhamma as object, this sort of 'activity' would also be consider pariyatti, no? The term sikkhitabba comes, I think from (PTS PED): "Sikkhati ...1. to learn, to train oneself (=ghat.ati vaayamati Vism 274); usually combined with the locative, thus sikkhaa -- padesu s. to train oneself...also with the dative, indicating the purpose; thus vinayaaya s. to train oneself to give up...the thing acquired by training is also put in the accusative; thus nibbaana.m s. to learn, to train oneself towards Nibbaana ...sikkheyyaasi ...sikkheyyaama ...sikkhema ...sikkhe...sikkheyya...sikkhissaami sikkhissaamase... sikkhanto...sikkhamaana training oneself...sikkhamaanaa (f.) a young woman undergoing a probationary course of training in order to become a nun...sikkhitabba... & sikkha that ought to be learnt ...sikkhitu.m ...sikkhitvaa...2. to want to overcome, to try, tempt ...sikkhita ...II. sikkhaapeti to teach, to train..." Sarah: "Aren't these also about understanding dhammas for what they are? For example, when he stresses seeing the smallest faults, how is this possible without the development of saipatthana or the path leading to satipatthana, depending on the understanding of the listeners? Just because he didn't mention 'anatta' in every sutta doesn't mean it is not implied. Again we can discuss any texts in more detail if you're interested. Scott: Here's a portion of the text, AN VI i (51): "...Just as if, monks, a woman or man or young lad fond of self-adornment, examining the reflection of his own face in a bright clean mirror or bowl of clear water, should see therein a stain or speck and strive for the removal of that stain or speck; and when he no longer sees it there is pleased and satisfied thereat, thinking: A gain it is to me that I am clean - even so a monk's introspection is most fruitful in good conditions, thus: Do I or do I not generally live covetous? Do I or do I not generally live malevolent in heart? Do I or do I not generally live possessed by sloth and torpor? Do I or do I not generally live excited in mind? Do I generally live in doubt-and-wavering, or have I crossed beyond it?...wrathful or not?...with soiled thoughts or clean thoughts?...with body passionate or not?...Do I generally live uncontrolled or controlled?..." Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, itthii vaa puriso vaa daharo yuvaa ma.n.danakajaatiko aadaase vaa parisuddhe pariyodaate acche vaa udakapatte saka.m mukhanimitta.m paccavekkhamaano sace tattha passati raja.m vaa a"nga.na.m vaa, tasseva rajassa vaa a"nga.nassa vaa pahaanaaya vaayamati. No ce tattha passati raja.m vaa a"nga.na.m vaa, tenevattamano hoti paripun.n.asa"nkappo ?" 'laabhaa vata me, parisuddha.m vata me' ti. Scott: Here I'm curious about the thought process that is being suggested. I also see the English phrase: 'a monk's introspection is most fruitful in good conditions.' Any ideas about this? The above does seem to represent an endorsement of a methodical way of thinking, and one need not assume that simply by thinking this way one can actually cause satipa.t.thaana to arise, but can one assume that one is not *actually* being asked to think in this very way - that this is 'code' for vipassanaa and satipa.t.thaana? Again, considering what Ken O. is trying to suggest, he seems to be differentiating between the development of satipa.t.thaana and something he calls 'method.' I don't get the impression that he cares either way - you know, samatha-bhaavanaa or vipassanaa - but he says there *are* methods in the texts. And he claims to understand anatta. Is he on to something or is he doing one of those famous flip-flops such as was witnessed with the Abhidhammika? That which Ken O. considers to be 'methods' are the descriptions, for example such as those in the Visuddhimagga, which S: "If we agree (as we do) that the development of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, it's clear that the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana is wrong and indicates a lack of understanding of the development of samatha and vipassana. Whatever the particular tendencies, any desire to have such states such as jhana or insight, hinders the development. Even a very slight wish for any attainment hinders the development immediately and leads away from the path. This, I understand, is what is meant by natural development of samatha and satipatthana. Any wish, expectation or trying to attain anything prevents the development of detachment from all that is conditioned in life at this moment." Scott: I don't get the impression that Ken O. makes the suggestion that a method means 'the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana.' I think he's just suggesting that there are methods described that lead to jhaana or vipassanaa. I gather that he might be making the rather ordinary, logical statement that since jhaana, for example, has certain specific consciousness and mental factors, and since these are together in a certain specific way, that there is a 'method' by which one is seen to arrive at jhaana thusly constituted. If jhaana is theoretically attainable, then there must be 'desire' to attain jhaana and there must be a 'procedure' to be followed for it's attainment - or so I think Ken O's argument goes. S: "Always good to discuss with you, Scott, and what I've written is probably more for others with different understandings than for you, as I know you already appreciate these points." Scott: Thanks, Sarah. I do understand. I wonder if Ken O. has a point that we might be missing. S: "Any signs of Spring in your part of Canada yet?" Scott: Almost. The snow is gone and it reached 12 degrees Celcius today. Sincerely, Scott. #106805 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:13 am Subject: Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for coming back to this. I also need to reply to many earlier messages (many of them yours), but no time so far to do it properly. Best wishes pt > S: I've only just got round to opening this text and I'm also not sure I follow X111.4. I think here that niyama is understood to be referring to akusala kamma which brings its result instantly, anantariyakamma and the magga cittas which also bring their result instantly - phala cittas immediately following magga citta. #106806 From: "philip" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:19 am Subject: Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for commenting on my post. You're a good friend. Ph: But sakkaya ditthi doesn't seem like a very horrible thing when you are dealing with impulses that are pushing to completely reject the Buddha's teaching and go back to living in the beastly way you did before... > .... > S: Isn't it because of sakkaya ditthi and thereby not seeing the truth that there are such "impulses that are pushing to completely reject the Buddha's teaching and go back to living in the beastly way you did before" ? Aren't the grossest of defilements only eradicated when sakkaya ditthi is eradicated? Ph: I should clarify of course that I *do* realize that sakkaya ditthi is at the root of suffering and bad behaviour, I guess I just differ with you about the degree we who are living as lay followers in hectic situations can reasonably expect or hope to eradicate it in this lifetime. I really don't believe that refining our thought processes so that the conceptual content is more about paramattha than about concepts (i.e, concepts about realities, rather than concepts about concepts.) does much, though it certainly feels kind of deep and liberating to always be absorbed mentally on paramattha topics. Still, it is better than nothing and as I said before brings us a little closer to the truth. (As long as we don't mistake this thinking about paramattha dhammas to have some kind of great value that, for example, makes it easier to accept doing bad deeds because one sees the anattaness of them, and is therefore developing kusala in a way that matters...) As for abstaining, I always find it interesting to reflect on how it is that I abstain successfully from doing bad deeds, and to be honest and without intending to boast, there has been a lot of success in abstaining. To me, it seems that there is a kind of teamwork between self-rooted considerations (as in the AN sutta, "this path is fearful, dangerous, strew with thorns, covered by jungle, a deviant path etc, a path for inferior people, not for superior people, this is not for you") which are rooted in our desire to be better people, not to be inferior people, and are therefore kind of rooted in sakkaya ditthi, and, on the other hand, and of course on the better hand, the way accumulated kusala, accumulated understanding, rise up to save the day, so to speak. I don't know if the former kind of self-interested reflections (and the suttanta is full of the Buddha telling lay followers to aspire for favourable destinations in rebirth, which are also likely to be self-interested, for example) support the uncontrollable, unpredictable but increasingly reliable arising of kusala to abstain, they may or may not, but in the face of really dire and powerful temptations to do evil deeds, and I have a lot of experience with this, self-interested considerations often save the day. The Buddha was above all a compassionate teacher who wanted us to stop suffering, he was not a purist. He prescribed different medicines in different situations, he knew that not everyone had the conditions for the deep kind of liberation (eradication of sakkaya ditthi) that you so kindly preach. (And I appreciate your reminders, as I've said before, checking in on DSG puts me in touch with deeper currents of the Dhamma, just having contact with them now and then is beneficial! Metta, Phil #106807 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Ken H), I was interested to look at the following text which you referred to in #105554 to Ken H: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Also Ven, Ananda has said quoting a poem by a deva about Buddha awakening to Jhana: > > "'Truly in a confining place, he found an opening ? the one of extensive wisdom, the awakened one who awakened to jhana, the chief bull, withdrawn, the sage.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html ... S: "jhaanamabujjhi" is the Pali term. The sutta goes on to show how only when the defilements are completely eradicated and there is a complete end to the arising of the khandhas is there "a way of escape from the noose" (PTS trans), an escape from the "confining place". This complete escape is what a samasambuddho is needed for, not for a realisation of the mundane jhanas. Remember the quotes we've given before on the two kinds of jhana? (If not, more can be found in "Useful Posts" under "Jhana - two meanings".) For example, from the Atthasalini, 'Fourfold Jhana', PTS transl.: "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.'" The same consideration needs to be given to the other references you've given, such as Dhp 372, in which you've suggested mundane jhana is being referred to in the context of the realisation of nibbana. Metta Sarah ======== #106808 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Scott, (Ken O, Alex & all), part 1 --- On Thu, 15/4/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >>Sarah: "...depends on one's interpretation and accumulations whether the reflections are kusala or akusala....the Buddha is stressing the importance of understanding kusala and akusala, the various dhammas in our life. He's not encouraging anyone to accumulate self-view or an idea that a Self can control anything." >Scott: But is he saying to think in a certain way, such as elucidated in the sutta below? ... Sarah: I don't understand him to ever be saying to "do this" or "do that". I understand him to be explaining, to be describing what is kusala, what is akusala, what leads to what result, what is conditioned by what, what is the path to enlightenment. He described everything, including all kinds of jhana, all kinds of evil, of course. ... >>Sarah: "Without studying, training, understanding the dhammas now, there will be no development of the path. The studying of these realities (with direct understanding of them) is to be pursued, is to be developed, but by panna, not by Self." >Scott: As Ken O. seems to be suggesting, there must be a method to this studying or training - maybe even when no obvious methodical procedure is being followed. We agree that 'study' is effected as pa~n~naa arises. Would it be fair to suggest that 'study' in a conventional sense would also occur? ... Sarah: I think that as soon as we look to a conventional sense study or a method of some kind, then we go wrong. When we hear about someone accidentally hearing the Buddha's words, understanding the meaning and becoming enlightened, where is this method or conventional sense of study? Regardless there was sikkha, 'study' in the absolute sense, conditioned by hearing and wise considering of the Teachings. Again, I think we go very wrong when we think of the Teachings as being "in the book", rather than the understanding now of the realities appearing. .... >This seems to be one way of making sense of Ken O's argument. One would have to actually read the Dhamma, learn it, consider it - and this would take the form of reading, thinking, discussing, etc. - conventional activities While pa~n~naa proper can arise and take any dhamma as object, this sort of 'activity' would also be consider pariyatti, no? ... Sarah: If there is no understanding of the realities now, even conceptualy, it is not pariyatti. Again, we can read the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka in Pali, even memorise it, but there may still not be any pariyatti. If we take such reading, study and memorising as something to be done or a method of some kind to develop understanding, this is not pariyatti. ... >The term sikkhitabba comes, I think from (PTS PED): "Sikkhati ...1. to learn, to train oneself (=ghat.ati vaayamati Vism 274); usually combined with the locative, thus sikkhaa -- padesu s. to train oneself...also with the dative, indicating the purpose; thus vinayaaya s. to train oneself to give up...the thing acquired by training is also put in the accusative; thus nibbaana.m s. to learn, to train oneself towards Nibbaana .. ... Sarah: I'm sure sikkhati can have an ordinary meaning as well that would have been in use before the Buddha used it with reference to the path. For example, sikkhaapada, the undertaking of the precepts. When it is used in the context of study/training with regard to nibbana, it's referring to the development of satipatthana and the sekkha is the learner, the ariyan disciple, not yet an arahat. What does this 'learner' do? He has no wrong view, but the task isn't finished, even though it is 'assured' to be one day. There is no rule at all about whether they read, listen or discuss Dhamma. However, by nature and understanding, we read about how many learners continued to listen to the Buddha or other disciples, how they continued to help others by discussing dhamma and so on. We're not yet learners and yet it's the same in the sense that it's the present understanding that matters. We listen to and discuss seeing and visible object and other paramattha dhammas because there is the understanding and confidence that this is what life is at this moment and that's all that matters. It's not because we set any rule or method for doing this. .... to be contd Metta Sarah ========= #106809 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all part 2 >Scott: Here's a portion of the text, AN VI i (51): "...Just as if, monks, a woman or man or young lad fond of self-adornment, examining the reflection of his own face in a bright clean mirror or bowl of clear water, should see therein a stain or speck and strive for the removal of that stain or speck; and when he no longer sees it there is pleased and satisfied thereat, thinking: A gain it is to me that I am clean - even so a monk's introspection is most fruitful in good conditions, thus: Do I or do I not generally live covetous? Do I or do I not generally live malevolent in heart? Do I or do I not generally live possessed by sloth and torpor? Do I or do I not generally live excited in mind? Do I generally live in doubt-and-wavering, or have I crossed beyond it?...wrathful or not?...with soiled thoughts or clean thoughts?... with body passionate or not?...Do I generally live uncontrolled or controlled?. .." Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, itthii vaa puriso vaa daharo yuvaa ma.n.danakajaatiko aadaase vaa parisuddhe pariyodaate acche vaa udakapatte saka.m mukhanimitta. m paccavekkhamaano sace tattha passati raja.m vaa a"nga.na.m vaa, tasseva rajassa vaa a"nga.nassa vaa pahaanaaya vaayamati. No ce tattha passati raja.m vaa a"nga.na.m vaa, tenevattamano hoti paripuṇṇasa"nkappo â€" 'laabhaa vata me, parisuddha.m vata me' ti. .... >Scott: Here I'm curious about the thought process that is being suggested. I also see the English phrase: 'a monk's introspection is most fruitful in good conditions.' Any ideas about this? ... Sarah: Generally, I understand the passage to be referring to the undestanding of kusala and akusala - all dhammas have to be seen for what they are, like looking in the mirror. As I wrote: >>Sarah: "Aren't these also about understanding dhammas for what they are? For example, when he stresses seeing the smallest faults, how is this possible without the development of saipatthana or the path leading to satipatthana, depending on the understanding of the listeners? Just because he didn't mention 'anatta' in every sutta doesn't mean it is not implied. Sarah: If instead we read some kind of method into the passage above and think there is some suggestion of going to look in the mirror, self-striving, checking through the defilements that have arisen during the day or last five minutes or even last five seconds, then I believe it's very wrong. ... >Scott: The above does seem to represent an endorsement of a methodical way of thinking, and one need not assume that simply by thinking this way one can actually cause satipa.t.thaana to arise, but can one assume that one is not *actually* being asked to think in this very way - that this is 'code' for vipassanaa and satipa.t.thaana? ... Sarah: If you read it as "an endorsement of a methodical way of thinking", I believe you're forgetting about conditioned dhammas and anatta. Whatever the Buddha said is for the understanding of anatta. Otherwise, why do we need a Buddha? Why not stick to our psychology studies? ... Scott:> Again, considering what Ken O. is trying to suggest, he seems to be differentiating between the development of satipa.t.thaana and something he calls 'method.' I don't get the impression that he cares either way - you know, samatha-bhaavanaa or vipassanaa - but he says there *are* methods in the texts. And he claims to understand anatta. ... Sarah: Let me put it this weay, if one has the idea that the path of satipatthana or vipassana is about understanding realities without a special method, but that another approach is that of samatha-bhavana and that this involves a method, then I believe this indicates there isn't an understanding of satipatthana, samatha bhavana or anatta. I've asked Ken O several times what samatha is. KS also asked him. He doesn't reply but says he knows panna and detachment from sense objects is involved and refers to jhanas and the Vism 'methods'. The point is that samatha (calm) is passaddhi cetasika. Passaddhi cetasika or calm arises with all sobhana cittas. So at this moment of wise reflection on the dhamma, passaddhi cetasika has been conditioned already. At the times when you're helping your kids get ready for school, preparing their lunches, packing their bags, finding their clothes, putting the breakfast on the table, there is passaddhi cetasika whenever any kusala cittas arise. So samatha is conditioned like all other dhammas. Now, when you help your kids, as you know, there's lots of attachment, lots of irritation, but sometimes there's metta and kindness. Right understanding can learn to know the distinction and the value of the moments of kindness and the harm of the unkind moments. Again, such understanding is conditioned to arise (or not arise), but not by following a method. If the understanding grows, so does the metta and its value becomes more and more apparent. This is an example of samatha bhavana, the development of calm, in daily life. It can also be developed, again if there are conditions, whilst writing to friends here!! But not by Atta, not by thinking in terms of methods. For many in the Buddha's time, samatha bhavana was developed up to the various jhanas. Again, each citta, each reflection, each moment of calm was conditioned. .... >Scott: That which Ken O. considers to be 'methods' are the descriptions, for example such as those in the Visuddhimagga, which >Sarah: "If we agree (as we do) that the development of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, it's clear that the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana is wrong and indicates a lack of understanding of the development of samatha and vipassana. Whatever the particular tendencies, any desire to have such states such as jhana or insight, hinders the development. Even a very slight wish for any attainment hinders the development immediately and leads away from the path. This, I understand, is what is meant by natural development of samatha and satipatthana. Any wish, expectation or trying to attain anything prevents the development of detachment from all that is conditioned in life at this moment." >Scott: I don't get the impression that Ken O. makes the suggestion that a method means 'the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana.' ... Sarah: (I don't believe I was particularly targeting Ken O's ideas, but I see you are). Any intention to have anything arise or any method at all is not the development of detachment from everything and anything that has been conditioned alrady. It hinders the path to think in terms of methods at all. Now if by 'methods' anyone is just referring to descriptions given conventionally about the lives and attainments of particular individuals as given in the Vism or elsewhere, that's OK. However, just as I wouldn't describe the 'burning of the curry' as a 'method' leading to enlightenment, nor would I describe the 'counting of breaths' or 'the stretching out the arm' as a method. I also wouldn't refer to "Doing samatha" or "doing" anything else in the context of the path. .... >I think he's just suggesting that there are methods described that lead to jhaana or vipassanaa. I gather that he might be making the rather ordinary, logical statement that since jhaana, for example, has certain specific consciousness and mental factors, and since these are together in a certain specific way, that there is a 'method' by which one is seen to arrive at jhaana thusly constituted. If jhaana is theoretically attainable, then there must be 'desire' to attain jhaana and there must be a 'procedure' to be followed for it's attainment - or so I think Ken O's argument goes. .... Sarah: Or Scott's? :-) .... >Scott: Thanks, Sarah. I do understand. I wonder if Ken O. has a point that we might be missing. .... Sarah: Well, Ken O always makes a lot of good points when he's discussing the Dhamma with others. On these points, I think we'll all be glad if you continue your discussions:-). .... >S: "Any signs of Spring in your part of Canada yet?" >>Scott: Almost. The snow is gone and it reached 12 degrees Celcius today. ... Sarah: I'm sure you'll all be glad of that... Always good chatting with you, Scott..... Sarah ======= #106810 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:29 am Subject: Learn Abhidharma the easy way :: Chethasika Samprayoga of 8 Greed Rooted Chitta gemunu.rohana http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/2010/04/chethasika-samprayoga-of-8-greed-\ rooted.html From the total of 12 Akusal Chitta, Greed rooted collection (8 Chitta) is one which ends up putting oneself in following 4 fears hells by pushing oneself to commit 7 Akusal Karmapatha. Those 4 Hells are 1. 136 Hells AKA Narakadiya 2. Animal Hell AKA Thirisan Apaya 3. Hungry Ghosts Hell AKA Praytha Apaya 4. Warrior Ghosts Hell AKA Asura Apaya Studying these Chitta inside out will help oneself keep these dangerous Chitta from generating. The different Chethasika has cleanly defined associations with each these Chitta in extremely logical fashion. If you analyze meaning of associated Chethasika against meaning of each Chitta, you can understand, memorize these associations without much effort. Please use following rules to remember associations 1. 7 Sarwa Chitta Sadarana Chethasika have to be there in any Chitta so they are counted as below 2. 14 Chethasika marked as common to all Akusal Chittha (including above 7) to be counted first 3. Adimokka (Judge action), Chanda(will power) Chethasika are also common to this category of Chitta, they are counted next 4. As name hints, Lauba (Greed) Chethasika is common to this category of Chitta too, When added up common total becomes 17 5. Dhitti, Maana are two Chethasika that have a connection with Lauba Chethasika (Refer coloured grouping in 52 Chethasika), these Chethasika Associated only in relevant Chitta exclusively as hinted by name of the Chitta 6. Peethi Chethasika can associate only with happy Chitta (therefore it associate only with 4 Somanassa Chitta) 7. Thinaya, Middaya Chethasika are again grouped together (Refer coloured grouping in 52 Chethasika) and associated only in Akusal Chitta generated as pushed by external party. Those Chitta are suffixed Sasanskarika during naming) 8. Try to remember the total Chethasika against each 8 Chitta as illustrated in the slide to complete your knowledge on this very important collection of dangerous Chittha. Referring back to 52 Chethasika and one following that will help you understand the details given in this slide better. The highlighting done using red cloud shows the worst Akusal Chitta in this collection. The 7 Potential Akusal Karamapatha due to these 8 Chitta are grouped by each door (Mind, Body, Speech) in the same slide. May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! Visit http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/ for freely downloadable Dharma content. #106811 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Hi pt & Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Mike: To totally oversimplify, it seems to me that the approach you advocate is to realise anatta by considering it very carefully. The alternative is to attempt to control stuff, and see how it goes. Sooner or later the lack of control becomes painfully obvious... > > pt: I think this is a good description. ... S: hmmm, and sooner or later with the first, it also becomes apparent that anatta can never be realised through mere consideration. .... >I also have to say that it reminds me a bit of the time when I was younger and my parents would tell me not to do certain things as they won't lead to any good, but I would reply "Leave me alone and let me make my own mistakes, how else can I learn?!" And then after making the mistake, I'd of course quietly say to myself "Damn it, should have listened to what my parents said." It's the same neverending dilemma with control/no control I think. E.g. as far as I can gather from KenH's posts, even he had to go through several decades of trying to control stuff so that he can finally begin to appreciate the no-control advice :) (I hope I'm not misrepresenting you here KenH :). .... S: Sometimes people say the same kind of thing to K.Sujin too - "you went on retreats, followed practices...." and therefore it was important to understanding anatta. I think it's one reason we're unwilling to talk about past experiences too. Someone might thing they should follow the Buddha's ascetic practices or anything else from his past lives. None of it has anything to do with our understanding of present dhammas as anatta, does it? There's quite enough wrong understanding and wrong practice in our lives anyway without having to seek out more in order to understand that dhammas cannot be controlled. It always comes back to the direct understanding of present dhammas. I don't see this as an approach, but an understanding. Metta Sarah ======= #106812 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:54 am Subject: Re: What IS the Noble Eightfold Path sarahprocter... Dear Howard, #106471 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > It has been expressed by some here, and I suspect this IS the > Theravadin commentarial view, that the N8P is something other than a path of > practice extending of a period of time, even aeons, but an awakening experience > occurring in a fraction of a second. With regard to that perspective, I > would ask you to consider the following sutta and the question I raise about > it: > > _______________________________________ > SN 47.40 > PTS: S v 183 > CDB ii 1659 > > Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of the Frames of Reference > > translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > _© 1997?"2010 _ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.040.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) > > > > "I will teach you the frames of reference, their development, and the path > of practice leading to their development. <...> > "This is called the development of the frames of reference. > "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of > reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right > speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of > the frames of reference." > _____________________________________ > My question is as follows: Most of this sutta is devoted to discussing the > 4 foundations of mindfulness and the development of them in terms of > calmly focusing on them without craving or upset, on their origination, and on > their cessation. .... S: Directly understanding them, one at a time... ... >And then, at the very end of the sutta, the Buddha > addresses "the path of practice (leading) to the development of the frames of > reference," and he identifies that as the N8P. So, it seems that the Buddha has > the N8P coming first, not last, and that being the path leading to the 4 > foundations of mindfulness. Does this not give you at least some pause? > ================================ ... S: As you said at the outset, the eightfold path is "but an awakening experience occurring in a fraction of a second". However without the development of these factors, there'd never be such "an awakening experience" and in the texts the eightfold path therefore refers to both the arising of the magga cittas (supramundane path moments) and the mundane development of the path leading to the arising of these cittas. In the Abhidhamma, the language is more precise. In the suttas, the same terms are used more generally. I've asked KS just the same question before, so I think it was a good one:-)) I'm always glad to read your comments and questions, Howard. Metta Sarah ======= #106813 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts sarahprocter... Dear Howard (and pt), ...and I meant to say that I thought the following was very nicely put: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------- > When speaking of a "conceptual object," one is just speaking > informally of "what is being thought about". There is no actual phenomenon that is > the object in the sense of an external "thing" or even an internal "idea > thing" that is being encountered. > Consider when you are "getting into your car". To speak informally, > you are aware of your car when that happens. "Your car," for at least part of > that time, is the so-called object. But all that is actually happening as > regards "your car" is a particular thinking process based upon and > interspersed with seeing and hearing and touching. > Consider the simpler situation of feeling warmth while taking a bath > or shower. The warmth experienced through the body door is just a passing, > ever-changing quality of the experiential flow that only later comes to be > thought of as a self-existent thing: "The warmth that I am experiencing". > Almost immediately following upon the body-door experiencing, there is a > primitive element of thinking that comes into play that conventionally > separates off (or carves out) the quality as an entity, a separate "something". > That mental carving out is already a matter of convention. That already is > the beginning of a process of reification/thing-making. After the quality, > already subject to the convention of viewing it as a "thing," is felt as > pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, recognition (sa~n~na) further identitfies it, > relating it to prior experience and categorizing it, perhaps wordlessly, > as "warmth," and that is further reification. Then further thinking may > occur, a mental and emotional proliferation (papan~nca) that "solidifies" the > seeming warmth-entity into a self-existent thing that is "mine" and that is > reacted to by way of craving or aversion. But what *actually* was involved > in all this? Body-door consciousness of a quality (later called "warmth") > that is pounced upon in stages by a host of atta-defiled mental operations > that make a mountain out of a molehill. > --------------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ======= #106814 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:56 am Subject: What Feeds the Hindrances? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What Feeds the Five Hindrances? At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once explained: Just as this body, is sustained by food, is dependent on food, and cannot continue without food, even so, friends, are the five mental hindrances indeed also sustained by a kind of food, they are also dependent on food, and cannot continue without ever renewed feeding! And what, friends, is feeding for the arising and growth of s ense-desire ? It is frequent and careless attention to the alluring & attractive features! This food makes sensual lust arise and feeds also growth of habitual greed? And what, friends, is feeding for the arising and aggravation of ill-will ? It is frequent & careless attention to the displeasing & repulsive features! This is food makes aversion arise & feeds also boosting of habitual anger? And what is feeding the emergence & deterioration of l ethargy- &-laziness? It is frequent & careless attention to drowsiness, & too much eaten dullness! This is food makes sloth arise and feeds also worsening of habitual laziness? And what is feeding for the arising and escalation of restlessness- &-regret? It is frequent & careless attention to the excited, agitated & stressed mind! This food upsets & stirs the mind & intensifies also habitual anxiety & worry? And what feeds the arising, deepening & expansion of d oubt- &-uncertainty? It is frequent & careless attention to doubtful theories & speculative views! This food bewilders the mind & feeds also escalation of habitual confusion... Just as this body, is supported by food, is dependent on food, and cannot go on without food, exactly so, friends, are these 5 Mental Hindrances supported by feeding, dependent on feeding, and cannot persist without this continual mental feeding by wrongly directed attention? <...> Though not visible the 5 Hindrances effectively Obstruct beings! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:64-5] section 46: The Links. 2: The Body... Have a nice, noble, & unhindered day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <..> #106815 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What IS the Noble Eightfold Path upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/15/2010 5:56:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: As you said at the outset, the eightfold path is "but an awakening experience occurring in a fraction of a second". However without the development of these factors, there'd never be such "an awakening experience" and in the texts the eightfold path therefore refers to both the arising of the magga cittas (supramundane path moments) and the mundane development of the path leading to the arising of these cittas. In the Abhidhamma, the language is more precise. In the suttas, the same terms are used more generally. I've asked KS just the same question before, so I think it was a good one:-)) ----------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Sarah. Your answer, as I understand it, I find to be a good one. There is the momentary arising of the path (of one stage or another) - an awakening, a "su[ramundane path moment), and there is the gradual cultivation of the factors of that path preceding the awakening. ------------------------------------------------------ I'm always glad to read your comments and questions, Howard. ------------------------------------------------------ Thanks, Sarah. I appreciate your kindness. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106816 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Scott > >--- On Thu, 15/4/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >>>Sarah: "...depends on one's interpretation and accumulations whether the reflections are kusala or akusala....the Buddha is stressing the importance of understanding kusala and akusala, the various dhammas in our life. He's not encouraging anyone to accumulate self-view or an idea that a Self can control anything." > >>Scott: But is he saying to think in a certain way, such as elucidated in the sutta below? >... >Sarah: I don't understand him to ever be saying to "do this" or "do that". I understand him to be explaining, to be describing what is kusala, what is akusala, what leads to what result, what is conditioned by what, what is the path to enlightenment. He described everything, including all kinds of jhana, all kinds of evil, of course. >... >>>Sarah: "Without studying, training, understanding the dhammas now, there will be no development of the path. The studying of these realities (with direct understanding of them) is to be pursued, is to be developed, but by panna, not by Self." > >>Scott: As Ken O. seems to be suggesting, there must be a method to this studying or training - maybe even when no obvious methodical procedure is being followed. We agree that 'study' is effected as pa~n~naa arises. Would it be fair to suggest that 'study' in a conventional sense would also occur? >... >Sarah: I think that as soon as we look to a conventional sense study or a method of some kind, then we go wrong. When we hear about someone accidentally hearing the Buddha's words, understanding the meaning and becoming enlightened, where is this method or conventional sense of study? Regardless there was sikkha, 'study' in the absolute sense, conditioned by hearing and wise considering of the Teachings. Again, I think we go very wrong when we think of the Teachings as being "in the book", rather than the understanding now of the realities appearing. KO:? I think we should not be afraid just because it is conventional.?? We must?be clear?of dhammas.? Listening to words even accidental is conventional as hearing citta?can?only have hearing objects and not? words.?? So it is not whether the listening is accidental or coincidental, what makes a person enlighted is the understanding of the meanings of the word through the the act of listening.??? What goes wrong in any act be it conventional or paramatha, is the akusala cetaiskas that arise with it. >.... >>This seems to be one way of making sense of Ken O's argument. One would have to actually read the Dhamma, learn it, consider it - and this would take the form of reading, thinking, discussing, etc. - conventional activities While pa~n~naa proper can arise and take any dhamma as object, this sort of 'activity' would also be consider pariyatti, no? >... >Sarah: If there is no understanding of the realities now, even conceptualy, it is not pariyatti. Again, we can read the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka in Pali, even memorise it, but there may still not be any pariyatti. If we take such reading, study and memorising as something to be done or a method of some kind to develop understanding, this is not pariyatti. >... KO:? What make realities now, it is sati,? understanding reality now is panna with sati.??? Without sati there is no now. Be it your development is samatha or vipassana.?? In the samatha, when one remembers and develop the?perception of the the foul?object to eradicate greed, is the act of sati with panna, the object is conceptual. >>The term sikkhitabba comes, I think from (PTS PED): > >"Sikkhati ...1. to learn, to train oneself (=ghat.ati vaayamati Vism 274); usually combined with the locative, thus sikkhaa -- padesu s. to train oneself...also with the dative, indicating the purpose; thus vinayaaya s. to train oneself to give up...the thing acquired by training is also put in the accusative; thus nibbaana.m s. to learn, to train oneself towards Nibbaana .. >... >Sarah: I'm sure sikkhati can have an ordinary meaning as well that would have been in use before the Buddha used it with reference to the path. For example, sikkhaapada, the undertaking of the precepts. When it is used in the context of study/training with regard to nibbana, it's referring to the development of satipatthana and the sekkha is the learner, the ariyan disciple, not yet an arahat. >What does this 'learner' do? He has no wrong view, but the task isn't finished, even though it is 'assured' to be one day. There is no rule at all about whether they read, listen or discuss Dhamma. However, by nature and understanding, we read about how many learners continued to listen to the Buddha or other disciples, how they continued to help others by discussing dhamma and so on. > >We're not yet learners and yet it's the same in the sense that it's the present understanding that matters. We listen to and discuss seeing and visible object and other paramattha dhammas because there is the understanding and confidence that this is what life is at this moment and that's all that matters. It's not because we set any rule or method for doing this. >.... KO:? it can be both ways, mundane and supramundane.??It depends on the context.? for the?commentary of satipathana, those undertake this breathing object are not sotapanna and they are not even in the stage of vipassana nana. Kind regards Ken O #106817 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:49 pm Subject: Jhana, should be always with insight truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, Thank you for your post. The only thing that I would like to say, again, is that I don't view Jhana as what you mean by "concentration on an object". I am talking about Jhana that deals with 3 characteristics, not mere "lets focus on one thing only and blank out" sort of thing. Even the samatha-heavy teacher like Ajahn Brahm doesn't talk about jhana (as concentration) only, but Jhana with insight into anicca, dukkha and anatta. I am not sure which widely known modern Jhana teachers ever emphasize jhana as mere concentration on an object. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Alex (& Ken H), > > I was interested to look at the following text which you referred to in #105554 to Ken H: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > Also Ven, Ananda has said quoting a poem by a deva about Buddha awakening to Jhana: > > > > "'Truly in a confining place, he found an opening ? the one of extensive wisdom, the awakened one who awakened to jhana, the chief bull, withdrawn, the sage.' > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html > ... > S: "jhaanamabujjhi" is the Pali term. The sutta goes on to show how only when the defilements are completely eradicated and there is a complete end to the arising of the khandhas is there "a way of escape from the noose" (PTS trans), an escape from the "confining place". This complete escape is what a samasambuddho is needed for, not for a realisation of the mundane jhanas. > > Remember the quotes we've given before on the two kinds of jhana? (If not, more can be found in "Useful Posts" under "Jhana - two meanings".) > > For example, from the Atthasalini, 'Fourfold Jhana', PTS transl.: > > "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object > and that which examines closely the characteristic marks > [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these > two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for > self-hypnosis] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are > called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is > so called from its examining closely the characteristics of > impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is > accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because > Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the > characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining > jhaana.'" > > The same consideration needs to be given to the other references you've given, such as Dhp 372, in which you've suggested mundane jhana is being referred to in the context of the realisation of nibbana. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > #106818 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) truth_aerator Hello Sarah, all, >Sarah: > Hi pt & Mike, > > .... > S: Someone might thing they should follow the Buddha's ascetic practices or anything else from his past lives. None of it has anything to do with our understanding of present dhammas as anatta, does it? There's quite enough wrong understanding and wrong practice in our lives anyway without having to seek out more in order to understand that dhammas cannot be controlled. It always comes back to the direct understanding of present dhammas. I don't see this as an approach, but an understanding. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= I think you are oversimplifying the meditation and meditators. Just like you can study with wrong views, in the same way you can meditate or do anything with or without wrong views. Unlike a lot of daily activity, proper meditation with right view of (anicca,dukkha,anatta) is wholesome. For example a lot of daily activities involve socializing with a lot of pointless chit-chatter, this is breaking a precept (and bad kamma). The more one is in the world the more possibilities there is to break some precepts (for a 'good' cause of course). Wise meditators do not believe in [nicca, sukkha, atta] so some of the things said here simply do not apply to them. With metta, Alex #106819 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Scott >... >Sarah: If you read it as "an endorsement of a methodical way of thinking", I believe you're forgetting about conditioned dhammas and anatta. Whatever the Buddha said is for the understanding of anatta. Otherwise, why do we need a Buddha? Why not stick to our psychology studies? KO:? the passage act as a reminder in our daily life as sati remembers by 16 ways.? Reflection of ones deeds?is usually used in samatha bhavana like?reflecting on the?ownerless?or impermanence?of a inanimate object like one's wealth.? Whereas in vipassana it would seen as just a rupa, or a thinking, or the liking that arise as craving,?? So it depends on what is the way one choose, the interpretation?of the passage?will also?be?different.? >... >Scott:> Again, considering what Ken O. is trying to suggest, he seems to be differentiating between the development of satipa.t.thaana and something he calls 'method.' I don't get the impression that he cares either way - you know, samatha-bhaavanaa or vipassanaa - but he says there *are* methods in the texts. And he claims to understand anatta. >... >Sarah: Let me put it this weay, if one has the idea that the path of satipatthana or vipassana is about understanding realities without a special method, but that another approach is that of samatha-bhavana and that this involves a method, then I believe this indicates there isn't an understanding of satipatthana, samatha bhavana or anatta. KO:? the idea that satipatthana has no method, is not in accordance with the text.? Why dont we discuss this using commentaries and Visud.? Anatta got nothing to do with a method.? And any wrongness is not the method, it is the cetasikas that arise in the method, that is why we have wrong rites and rituals.?It is not the rules that are wrong or methods that are wrong by itself,? It is the dhamma that arise > >I've asked Ken O several times what samatha is. KS also asked him. He doesn't reply but says he knows panna and detachment from sense objects is involved and refers to jhanas and the Vism 'methods'. KO:? At that time in Bkk, the interesting is that I still has yet firm idea?how to differentiate between vipassana and samatha.? Two things give me an impact why I should study samatha, it was Vince who was arguing about samatha but most of time I was not listening to his argument.? I find his insistance very interesting, so I tell myself why dont I take a close look when I get back. The second was this reply from KS,? khanda only becomes clinging khanda when clinging arise.?It remind me of the discussion I have on miccha ditthi arising with craving.? So any object that arise could only be akusala only when akusala arise and not because of objects itself The idea that conventional?is I believe come from the believe of attanuditthi that there is an idea of something or a thing in?concepts, an idea of permenance.? Correct me if I am wrong?Sarah on this explanation of attanuditthi.? A few of the texts pointed out that, ?attanuditthi?is the same as?sakkayditthi especially if one look at the Treatise of View in Path of Discrimination,???It is not an idea of a thing or something, it should be a self in earth which earth could be a concept?like the earth kasina.????If one look at the Commentary to MN1, it is explain clearly, sakkaya ditthi arise because of ditthi and not because of concepts.? So an idea of something is not the correct rendering of attanuditthi.? We always have an idea of something, only when an idea of something is taken as permanent that is?eternalism view which is wrong view and not attanuditthi.? Dont say it is undersanding, if you think it is wrong, prove to me by using the texts.? An idea of permenance, is eternalism view and?it is not attanuditthi or sakkayditthi.? But the arisen of attanuditthi or sakkaditthi could condition eternalism view.??The order of clinging in one existence as described in pg 223 of Dispeller?of Delusion?discussing about DO, ?first there arise a sakkayditthi, after that, there arise eternal view,?and after that wrong rites and ritual or sense clinging.? >The point is that samatha (calm) is passaddhi cetasika. Passaddhi cetasika or calm arises with all sobhana cittas. So at this moment of wise reflection on the dhamma, passaddhi cetasika has been conditioned already. At the times when you're helping your kids get ready for school, preparing their lunches, packing their bags, finding their clothes, putting the breakfast on the table, there is passaddhi cetasika whenever any kusala cittas arise. So samatha is conditioned like all other dhammas. Now, when you help your kids, as you know, there's lots of attachment, lots of irritation, but sometimes there's metta and kindness. Right understanding can learn to know the distinction and the value of the moments of kindness and the harm of the unkind moments. Again, such understanding is conditioned to arise (or not arise), but not by following a method. If the understanding grows, so does the metta and its value becomes more and more apparent. This is an example >of samatha bhavana, the development of calm, in daily life. It can also be developed, again if there are conditions, whilst writing to friends here!! But not by Atta, not by thinking in terms of methods. >For many in the Buddha's time, samatha bhavana was developed up to the various jhanas. Again, each citta, each reflection, each moment of calm was conditioned. KO:?? By your?explanation,?anyone who are always doing?kusala would have attain jhanas.? But they did not.??Not because passaddhi cetasikas does not arise with kusala?cittas or mindfulness does not arise with kusala, it is because?sati?is not?mindful of the presence?of these kusala cittas.? Sati is not a facutly?and power?at that moment.??? Without mindfulness, there no samatha bhavana to jhanas?even?for one who?is an extremely kind person?amd keep the ten precepts in?his whole life. >>Sarah: "If we agree (as we do) that the development of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, it's clear that the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana is wrong and indicates a lack of understanding of the development of samatha and vipassana. Whatever the particular tendencies, any desire to have such states such as jhana or insight, hinders the development. Even a very slight wish for any attainment hinders the development immediately and leads away from the path. This, I understand, is what is meant by natural development of samatha and satipatthana. Any wish, expectation or trying to attain anything prevents the development of detachment from all that is conditioned in life at this moment." >Sarah: (I don't believe I was particularly targeting Ken O's ideas, but I see you are). Any intention to have anything arise or any method at all is not the development of detachment from everything and anything that has been conditioned alrady. It hinders the path to think in terms of methods at all. Now if by 'methods' anyone is just referring to descriptions given conventionally about the lives and attainments of particular individuals as given in the Vism or elsewhere, that's OK. However, just as I wouldn't describe the 'burning of the curry' as a 'method' leading to enlightenment, nor would I describe the 'counting of breaths' or 'the stretching out the arm' as a method. I also wouldn't refer to "Doing samatha" or "doing" anything else in the context of the path KO:? Wow now we have doing I thought you said all conventional actions are wrong.? Again what is natural, what is intention or chanda.? One does not separate intentions with kusala and aksuala and assuming all intentions or?chanda to be akusala.? This is the same as the matter of accumulations and attribute everything to accumulations.? But when accumlation arise,? kusala or akusala depends on the six roots and its latency and not the accumulations.? Accumulation just accumulates dont determine kusala or kusala, it is the roots and latencies that determines. Kind regards Ken O #106820 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:46 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: I expected it to be questioned. No surprises. ;-) Say, Dieter, you are becoming quite an excellent English-language poet. I really love your "in the 'valley of the dried bones' even moisture is suspected... " Is that something you've read, or is it original with you? D: claiming no copyright for a new arrangement of associated fragments , the English student thanks and appreciates the common wavelength . ;-) H: (D: Bahiya Sutta ,...) :-) One of my favorites!! D: and beautifully completed by you (H : Kalaka Sutta).. another issue is the approach towards states of samatha , we may not yet agree with , for example my interpretation of the mentioned situation " .. sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree " ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html ) snip .. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?' "snip..I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then - quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities - I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated snip ..." The famous Middle Way , but perhaps better to talk about it at different time and place.. with Metta Dieter #106821 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:57 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Ken O, as in the past I noted quite interesting aspects you raised in recent postings , one of them the issue of faith I responded in relation to suffering .. but recalling that I failed to reply to several of your mails ( you are quite fast, Ken ..) , it is likely me to be blamed for not doing more reaching a consens in this or that matter.. I try a new start ...you wrote: KO: I like to point out that volition can never rest and citta can never take a break because one citta ceases. the other citta arise, it continues due to conditonality.. D: if ' volition can never rest ' there would be no possibility of cessation of kamma .. please compare e.g. with : 'With regard to kammical volition (i.e. wholesome or unwholesome kamma) it is said in A. VI, 13: "Volition is action (kamma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind." For details, s. pat.iccasamuppa-da (10), kamma.' (Nyanatiloka commenting Cetana) Quite important is to remember states /experiences of peaceful mind , the absence of intention or urge to act , so typical for samatha.. I did not say that citta takes a break... but 'That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path'. with Metta Dieter #106822 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful farrellkevin80 Nina: Dear Kevin, No need for apology about delay of answer. You are working... Kevin: Dear Nina, thank you for understanding. Sometimes it is hard to reply. I hope everything works out well and easily for you at the house. Kevin #106823 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Sarah: Kevin, appreciating your many helpful contributions. When you have a little time, also take a look in "Useful Posts" under Jhana. In particular, "Jhana today?", "Jhana and nibbana", "Samsara - decline". The first of these sections, "Jhana today" looks at saved messages discussing just your question. Dear Sarah: Thanks so much! I found some very interesting material there. It seems at this time no more people attaining by using samatha as a basis for insight. Kevin #106824 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? truth_aerator Dear Kevin, all, > Sarah: Kevin, appreciating your many helpful contributions. When >you have a little time, also take a look in "Useful Posts" under >Jhana. In particular, "Jhana today?", "Jhana and nibbana", "Samsara >- decline". The first of these sections, "Jhana today" looks at >saved messages discussing just your question. > >K: Dear Sarah: Thanks so much! I found some very interesting >material there. It seems at this time no more people attaining by >using samatha as a basis for insight. First, how do you know which monks have and have not? I am not very convinced when people make this broad statements like "there are no aryans today" or "no one has achieved jhana" that would require super powers and Buddha's power of knowledge of others faculties. Second: RobK2 sometimes likes to quote Nettipakarana about what people will dull wisdom (again, how can he speak for ALL people? Does he have super powers of the Buddha?). Even there, the duller-witted people (corresponds to craving-temperament) are asked to do insight PRECEDED BY SERENITY. Sure, they have to focus on insight and it is insight that ultimately does everything. However this insight needs super power mindfulness of the Jhanas. "43. Both kinds of craving-temperament find the outlet, by way of insight heralded by quiet,1 to the heart-deliverance due to the fading of lust. Both kinds of view-temperament find the outlet, by way of quiet heralded by insight, to the understanding-deliverance due to the fading of ignorance.2" With metta, Alex #106825 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 4/15/2010 1:47:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: another issue is the approach towards states of samatha , we may not yet agree with , for example my interpretation of the mentioned situation " .. sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree " ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html ) snip .. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?' "snip..I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then - quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities - I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated snip ..." The famous Middle Way , but perhaps better to talk about it at different time and place.. ============================== I think the rose-apple tree sitting is an important matter. Yes, let's discuss it some time. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106826 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "First, how do you know which monks have and have not? I am not very convinced when people make this broad statements like 'there are no aryans today' or 'no one has achieved jhana'..." Scott: I'm sorry, I can't stop myself. I believe you have absolutely no credibility to comment on the above, in light of the below: A: "...The only thing that I would like to say, again, is that I don't view Jhana as what you mean by 'concentration on an object'. I am talking about Jhana that deals with 3 characteristics, not mere "lets focus on one thing only and blank out" sort of thing. Even the samatha-heavy teacher like Ajahn Brahm doesn't talk about jhana (as concentration) only, but Jhana with insight into anicca, dukkha and anatta. I am not sure which widely known modern Jhana teachers ever emphasize jhana as mere concentration on an object." Scott: I'd like to see just one of your Meditator colleagues agree with this completely confused and inaccurate statement. I've never seen the like. Sincerely, Scott. #106827 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:48 am Subject: fleeting moments of intentions szmicio Dear friends, In one moment there is bad intention and in another good intention. bad intentions are present and they are gone. good intentions are present and they are gone. This is not mine, if it were mine I could control it. I dont want those fleeting moments. I dont like good intentions even, they are so fleeting. good intentions are kusala, and Buddha say this needs a cultivation. the cultivation is possible, but there is so much misery in those good intentions. There is dukkha in good intention. Best wishes Lukas #106828 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:55 am Subject: 3 groups of sankharas szmicio Dear friends, There are 3 groups of sankharas, vacisankara, kayasankara and manosankhara (I hope i didnt mix the names). Those are not ours. They are just conditioned fleeting moments that arise because of ignorance. when speak there is vacisankhara but does kaya- and manosankhara also present when speak? I think this is good to know this also on intelectuall level, because this can condition wise attention and development later on. Opportunity to hear good Dhamma and yoniso manasikara is a condition for right understanding. best wishes Lukas #106829 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:05 am Subject: mana - conceit szmicio Dear friends, Is it good if we consider the characteristic of mana in the moments of pride, instead of being involved in thnking of pride? What is the characteristic of mana, when it arises? There can be mana like a strong pride and also more subtle like cultivation of kusala and thining this is easy. Does the characteristic of mana can be known? What is important? This useless thining or just seeing thinking is only thinking? Best wishes Lukas #106830 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta hantun1 Dear Sarah, I thank you very much for sharing with us what was written in the commentaries about the reasons given for teaching D.O. in different ways, comparing the different starting points to the "four creeper-gatherers' ways of seizing a creeper": i) One of the men pulls the root out first, just as the Buddha starts with avijja. (M i 261) "Accordingly, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition formations [arise]...." ii) Another pulls out the upper part of the creeper first, just as the Buddha starts from the middle with tan.ha and upadaana. (M i 266) "In him who delights in, welcomes, remains committted to that feeling, there arises delight. Delight in feeling is clinging.... " iii) Another seizes the tip, follows it to the root and takes all of the creeper, just as the Buddha starts from the end up to the beginning. (M i 261) "With birth as condition ageing and death [arise]...." iv) The last of these creeper-gatherers cuts the middle of it first and traces it downwards, just as the Buddha teaches from the middle up to the beginning. (S ii 11 ff) "And these four nutriments, bhikkhus, what is their source? From what are they born? By what are they produced? These four nutriments have craving as their source...... .." Later it says: "But in particular it should be recognised that i) when he sees that people susceptible to teaching are confused about the analysis of the causes of the process [of existence], he employs his teaching of it forwards starting from the beginning for the purpose of showing that the process [occurs] for its proper reasons and for the purpose of showing the order of arising. And iii) when he surveys the world as fallen upon trouble in the way stated thus: 'This world has fallen upon trouble; it is born, grows old, dies, passes away and reappears' (D ii 30; S ii 5), he employs his teaching of it backwards starting from the end for the purpose of showing the reasons for the various kinds of suffering beginning with ageing and death, [which reasons were] arrived at by himself in the course of his penetration in the prior stage. And (iv) he employs his teaching of it backwards, starting from the middle up to the beginning, in order to show how the succession of cause and fruit extends back into the past, and again forwards from the past, in accordance with the definition of origin as nutriment (see M i 47ff). And ii) he employs [his teaching of it forwards] starting from the middle upon the origination of the cause of the future in the present." As we read "For the Dependent Origination is entirely excellent. [Starting] from any one [of the four starting points] it leads only to the penetration of the right path." ---------------------- Han: I would be grateful if you would kindly let me know the Sutta number and title of (M i 261), (M i 266), and (S ii 11). Secondly, I see the numberings in the paragraph under "Later it says", (i), (iii), and (iv). What is (ii) please? I really appreciate your very valuable additions. Respectfully, Han #106831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:31 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (320, 21-23) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Sangiiti Sutta Fives (320, 21-23): Walshe DN 33.2.1(21) 'Five faculties (indriyaani): the faculty of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body. (Pa~ncindriyaani - cakkhundriya.m, sotindriya.m, ghaanindriya.m, jivhindriya.m, kaayindriya.m.) DN 33.2.1(22) 'Five more faculties: pleasant [bodily] feeling (sukha), pain (dukkha), gladness (somanassa), sadness (domanassa), indifferent feeling (upekhaa). (Aparaanipi pa~ncindriyaani - sukhindriya.m, dukkhindriya.m, somanassindriya.m, domanassindriya.m, upekkhindriya.m.) DN 33.2.1(23) 'Five more faculties: faith (saddhaa), energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom. (Aparaanipi pa~ncindriyaani - saddhindriya.m, viiriyindriya.m, satindriya.m, samaadhindriya.m, pa~n~nindriya.m.) ---------- N: The P?li term for faculty is ?indriya?, meaning strength, governing or controlling principle. Indriyas are ?leaders? for the associated dhammas; they are leaders each in their own field. The Co states: the first set of five indriyas is only lokiya. As the tiika remarks, these are ruupas. They are the five sense-faculties. Co: Of the second set, the first, second and fourth are lokiya, worldly. N: These are the feelings that are pleasant [bodily] feeling (sukha), pain (dukkha), sadness (domanassa). These cannot be lokuttara. The Tiika: because they are of the plane of sense-consciousness (paritta bhuuma, the insignificant plane). Co: Of the second set, the third and the fifth indriyas are lokiya and lokuttara. N: Gladness (somanassa) and indifferent feeling (upekhaa) can accompany lokiya cittas and lokuttara cittas. Co: The third set of five can be both lokiya and lokuttara. This refers to samatha, vipassanaa and magga. N: These are the five spiritual faculties that have to be developed: faith (saddhaa), energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom. They can be of the sensuous plane, the plane of ruupajhaana, of aruupajhaana and the plane that is lokuttara. The tiika states: this refers to samatha, vipassanaa, magga and phala. It adds (to the Co.) fruition, which is vipaakacitta that is lokuttara, the result of magga-citta. -------- Pali: Co: Indriyesu pa.thamapa~ncake lokiyaaneva kathitaani. Dutiyapa~ncake pa.thamadutiyacatutthaani lokiyaani, tatiyapa~ncamaani lokiyalokuttaraani. Tatiyapa~ncake samathavipassanaamaggavasena lokiyalokuttaraani. ------------ N: As to the faulties that are the five senses, objects can only be experienced because there are faculties which condition the experience of objects by way of faculty-condition. In being aware of visible object, the reality which appears through the eyesense, we can begin to understand that visible object could not appear without eyesense; and thus the function of the eye faculty, the ?leader? in the field of seeing, will be clearer. As to feelings that are indriyas, throughout our life feelings arise, feeling accompanies each citta. We attach great importance to feeling, we let ourselves be carried away by the feelings which arise on account of pleasant or unpleasant objects we experience through the senses. We are enslaved to our feelings, but they are only realities which arise because of the appropriate conditions and do not last. When the five ?spiritual faculties? of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are developed in samatha, they lead to the attainment of jh?na. The five ?spiritual faculties? are also developed in vipassanaa. They overcome their opposites. Faith or confidence in wholesomeness overcomes lack of confidence. Wholesomeness cannot be developed when we do not see its benefit. Kusala can be gradually developed; it can be accumulated, so that there will be more conditions for its arising. When we keep on listening to the Dhamma and considering what we heard, the five ?spiritual faculties? can develop. They lead to the experiencing of the ?Deathless?, of nibb?na, but we do not know in which life that will happen. We should only be intent on our task of this moment: developing more understanding of the reality which appears now. ------------------ Nina. #106832 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Many thanks for your kind reply. H:> I thank you very much for sharing with us what was written in the commentaries about the reasons given for teaching D.O. in different ways, comparing the different starting points to the "four creeper-gatherers' ways of seizing a creeper": .... S: Let me add the reference details. The commentary details are more extensive, but I abbreviated and summarised in the following: S:> i) One of the men pulls the root out first, just as the Buddha starts with avijja. (M i 261) "Accordingly, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition formations [arise]...." ... S: M i 261 is in the Mahaata.nhaasankhaya Sutta, M 38, beg. at #17 ... S:> ii) Another pulls out the upper part of the creeper first, just as the Buddha starts from the middle with tan.ha and upadaana. (M i 266) "In him who delights in, welcomes, remains committted to that feeling, there arises delight. Delight in feeling is clinging.... " .... S: from the same sutta as above, beg. at #30 ... S:> iii) Another seizes the tip, follows it to the root and takes all of the creeper, just as the Buddha starts from the end up to the beginning. (M i 261) "With birth as condition ageing and death [arise]...." ... S: The same sutta, beg. at #18 .... S:> iv) The last of these creeper-gatherers cuts the middle of it first and traces it downwards, just as the Buddha teaches from the middle up to the beginning. (S ii 11 ff) "And these four nutriments, bhikkhus, what is their source? From what are they born? By what are they produced? These four nutriments have craving as their source...... .." .... S: This is in Nidaanavagga, SN, 12:11 Nidaanasa.myutta, Nutriment. p540 Bodhi transl. Pls let me know if you have any trouble finding the refs. I'm glad to check them as well. .... S:> Later it says: "But in particular it should be recognised that i) when he sees that people susceptible to teaching are confused about the analysis of the causes of the process [of existence], he employs his teaching of it forwards starting from the beginning for the purpose of showing that the process [occurs] for its proper reasons and for the purpose of showing the order of arising. And iii) when he surveys the world as fallen upon trouble in the way stated thus: 'This world has fallen upon trouble; it is born, grows old, dies, passes away and reappears' (D ii 30; S ii 5), he employs his teaching of it backwards starting from the end for the purpose of showing the reasons for the various kinds of suffering beginning with ageing and death, [which reasons were] arrived at by himself in the course of his penetration in the prior stage. And (iv) he employs his teaching of it backwards, starting from the middle up to the beginning, in order to show how the succession of cause and fruit extends back into the past, and again forwards from the past, in accordance with the definition of origin as nutriment (see M i 47ff). ***And ii) he employs [his teaching of it forwards] starting from the middle upon the origination of the cause of the future in the present." >As we read "For the Dependent Origination is entirely excellent. [Starting] from any one [of the four starting points] it leads only to the penetration of the right path." ------------ --------- - >Han: I would be grateful if you would kindly let me know the Sutta number and title of (M i 261), (M i 266), and (S ii 11). ... S: Done above ... >Secondly, I see the numberings in the paragraph under "Later it says", (i), (iii), and (iv). What is (ii) please? ... S: For some reason, (ii) is given after (i), (iii) and (iv). If you look at the end of the para above, I've now put in *** to mark the place of (ii). Like you, I thought it was missing at first. ... >I really appreciate your very valuable additions. ... S: It's also a valuable opportunity for me to share and discuss Dhamma with you. Like Nina, I also appreciate your sharing of the comments by the Burmese Sayadaws. Again, I apologise for getting very behind on all our travels. Still catching up... Metta Sarah ===== #106833 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:05 am Subject: Re: Concepts sarahprocter... Dear Ken H & pt, #106456 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Pt: > I know it's said that sanna marks the concept, but what does this really mean? I mean, I don't understand what does "mark" mean. > ----------------- > > That's is a difficult one for me too, but I'll have a go. One simile I recall was of a woodcutter who walked through the forest marking trees before they were cut down. In that way, when he saw the marked logs in the sawmill, he could tell, "This is the one I though would be good for a tabletop (or, this is the one I thought would be good for a roof beam) etc. > > I believe the marking and the recognising both happen in the one citta. But, even so, concepts from long ago still bear their marks, which can be recognised when they reappear. .... S: Beautifully put - the best marked logs I've seen! (Not so sure that concepts "reappear", so much as be experienced again....minor quibble at most...) ... > ------------------------- >>Pt: 3. It's often said that concepts are not real, but that thinking is - dhammas that take concepts as objects. How exactly recollecting of ideas and their meanings happens? I mean, again, I know that sanna is said to recollect these concepts, but what does that actually mean? What happens there? Could it be something like present sanna recollecting some previous sanna in fact? So kind > of like a snapshot of dhammas that were present when that particular concept was created or "marked"? > ------------------------- > >K: I'll be looking forward to answers from the others. Especially Sarah, who had a fever when last heard from. I hope you are feeling better now, Sarah. ... S: Another marked log... The sanna accumulates, so that next time the fever symptoms (various rupas and namas)are experienced again, there is an association, a recollection that this is a fever, these are the symptoms, this is the treatment and so on. Nothing is ever forgotten, so each moment, sanna is recalling and marking the various realities and concepts experienced. This is how the email is read now and the ideas about the various visible objects are formed up. Sanna khandha - each sanna is sanna khandha and yet each sanna is different from any other sanna. I'll leave it here for now, but please ask us for more clarifications if it's still not clear, Pt. It's a useful topic. No hurry.....!! Metta Sarah ======= #106834 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Deiter > >D: if ' volition can never rest ' there would be no possibility of cessation of kamma .. please compare e.g. with : >'With regard to kammical volition (i.e. wholesome or unwholesome kamma) it is said in A. VI, 13: "Volition is action (kamma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind." For details, s. pat.iccasamuppa-da (10), kamma.' (Nyanatiloka commenting Cetana) KO: There are three aspects of cetana, one that does volitions, one as a result and one as co-ordinating. Cetana is in all cittas. Also even seating down is a volition, an action so one cannot there is no volition. >Quite important is to remember states /experiences of peaceful mind , the absence of intention or urge to act , so typical for samatha.. > KO: Experiences of peaceful mind is not the goal of samatha, it is attainment of enlightment is the goal. So a lot of pple practise samatha thinking only about these and forget the real meanings and what are factors that develop samatha, Samatha is not about not acting, is about virtue, developing mindfulness and correct understanding of dhamma. Without these, there is no peace of mind and without it there is a likelihood one is attached to the peaceful mind. That is the danger Buddha keep saying that some ascetics take jhanas as Nibbana. >I did not say that citta takes a break... but 'That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path'. KO: the correct word is withdraw from sense pleasure and not taking a break. Sati and jhanas are two different things. Jhanas need sati but sati does not require jhanas. There are four ways of concentration and not restricted to jhanas. Let me explain about jhanas, when one said jhanas that investigate into details are supradmunane jhanas and not worlding jhanas. What you see in samatha are jhanas in worldings. One must be careful and not fall into the trapped that in mixing mundane and supramundane. And dont believe in people who tells you that experiencing nama and rupas is practising samatha, that is not possible until jhanas is attained. Thereafter you could do that because the mind is extremely clear able to cognize the different dhammas. Kind regards Ken O #106836 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fleeting moments of intentions sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > > In one moment there is bad intention and in another good intention. > > bad intentions are present and they are gone. > > good intentions are present and they are gone. > > This is not mine, if it were mine I could control it. ... S: True! ... > > I dont want those fleeting moments. > > I dont like good intentions even, they are so fleeting. ... S: What kind of citta thinks like this? .... > > good intentions are kusala, and Buddha say this needs a cultivation. > > the cultivation is possible, but there is so much misery in those good intentions. > > There is dukkha in good intention. ... S: It's true that "sabbe sankhara anicca...dukkha..anatta." But when we think of "so much misery in those good intentions", isn't this just thinking? And thinking with panna and equanimity or thinking with dosa? Only the panna that has understood dhammas as anatta and anicca can really know the characteristic of dukkha of seeing, visible object, good intention and of other conditioned dhammas. Btw, I thought your post #104552 on vedana, meditation and your discussions with friends was great - nice explanation. Pls share any more of your discussions. Yesterday I had an interesting discussion with a radiologist dr I know quite well and whom I was visiting for some routine scans. He wasn't busy, so after discussing health issues, financial issues (standard chit-chat in HK on any visit for any purpose), we starting discussing religions and the problems he has with Catholicism. In particular, he found it hard to accept God's great love when so many in the world were suffering and so on. It was OK for his children, but what about other poor children in India? We talked a little about kamma and Buddhism. He said he had a problem with the notion of detachment, because he loves his worldly possessions and also could never meditate. So, of course, I started chatting about meditation at that moment and seeing, visible object and detachment from one experience at the present moment only. I also talked a little about the world of dreams and anatta. At the end he asked me to drop by with a "beginner book on Buddhism". Which book would you recommend? I did mention a little about there only being mental and physical phenomena, so he might be able to appreciate one of Nina's books. What do you think? Metta Sarah ======== #106837 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fleeting moments of intentions szmicio Dear Sarah, >Which book would you recommend? I did mention a little about there only >being mental and physical phenomena, so he might be > able to appreciate one of Nina's books. What do you think? L: Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. So all this reflections of mine are just mental trash. Only thinking,yes? Just thinking mind no more. Conditioned dhamma. sankhara dhamma. Best wishes Lukas #106838 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fleeting moments of intentions szmicio Dear Sarah, How to apply mind more on seeing and hearing? How to be more at present? Best wishes Lukas > L: Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. > > So all this reflections of mine are just mental trash. Only thinking,yes? > > Just thinking mind no more. Conditioned dhamma. sankhara dhamma. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #106839 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fleeting moments of intentions sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Fri, 16/4/10, Lukas wrote: >How to apply mind more on seeing and hearing? How to be more at present? .... S: Again!... (as K.Sujin would say to you:-)) In other words, wishing for a result. This isn't the detachment from the present reality. It's so useless to think about "how to....". You've read and considered a lot about dhammas, about anatta, about awareness and understanding. When there are conditions, awareness will be aware, understand will understand. Gradually, there will be less and less thought about "how to...?", about "when...?", about any kind of result or way to speed it up. When some undestanding has developed and one doesn't think at all in terms of "how much...." or "when..." or "how to...?", life is very easy, very natural.....no rules at all. With less clinging to, less concern about results, less dosa as a consequence. ... > L: Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. ... S: OK....maybe a smaller book first, like 'Concepts and Realities'...Will let you know how it goes after I have a check-up next year! ... > > So all this reflections of mine are just mental trash. Only thinking,yes? ... S: Well, I can't say. But most the day for all of us, most the reflections are just "mental trash":-) Yes, just thinking... ... > > Just thinking mind no more. Conditioned dhamma. sankhara dhamma. ... S: Yes, sankhara dhamma, nothing to find importance in or be concerned about. All anatta, not Lukas (as Ken O said). Metta Sarah ====== #106840 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta hantun1 Dear Sarah, I got it all. Thank you very much. i) One of the men pulls the root out first, just as the Buddha starts with avijja. (M i 261) "Accordingly, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition formations [arise]...." [forwards, starting from the beginning] M i 261 is in the Mahaata.nhaasankhaya Sutta, M 38, beg. at #17 ii) Another pulls out the upper part of the creeper first, just as the Buddha starts from the middle with tan.ha and upadaana. (M i 266) "In him who delights in, welcomes, remains committted to that feeling, there arises delight. Delight in feeling is clinging.... " [forwards, starting from the middle] M i 261 is in the Mahaata.nhaasankhaya Sutta, M 38, beg. at #30 iii) Another seizes the tip, follows it to the root and takes all of the creeper, just as the Buddha starts from the end up to the beginning. (M i 261) "With birth as condition ageing and death [arise]...." [backwards, starting from the end] M i 261 is in the Mahaata.nhaasankhaya Sutta, M 38, beg. at #18 iv) The last of these creeper-gatherers cuts the middle of it first and traces it downwards, just as the Buddha teaches from the middle up to the beginning. (S ii 11 ff) "And these four nutriments, bhikkhus, what is their source? From what are they born? By what are they produced? These four nutriments have craving as their source...... .." [backwards, starting from the middle] Nidaanavagga, SN, 12:11 Nidaanasa.myutta, Nutriment. p540 Bodhi transl. -------------------- S: It's also a valuable opportunity for me to share and discuss Dhamma with you. Like Nina, I also appreciate your sharing of the comments by the Burmese Sayadaws. Again, I apologise for getting very behind on all our travels. Still catching up... Han: Thank you very much for your kind words. No need to apologise for late reply. It is very much worth waiting. Respectfully, Han #106841 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? farrellkevin80 Alex, Alex123: First, how do you know which monks have and have not? I am not very convinced when people make this broad statements like "there are no aryans today" or "no one has achieved jhana" that would require super powers and Buddha's power of knowledge of others faculties. Kevin: No one said those things. Alex: Second: RobK2 sometimes likes to quote Nettipakarana about what people will dull wisdom (again, how can he speak for ALL people? Does he have super powers of the Buddha?). Kevin: Your are confused. Many people including many Arahants had the eye that could see that. Thus, it has been recorded. Alex: "Even there, the duller-witted people (corresponds to craving-temperament ) are asked to do insight PRECEDED BY SERENITY. Sure, they have to focus on insight and it is insight that ultimately does everything. However this insight needs super power mindfulness of the Jhanas. Kevin: You are confused. Have a nice day, Alex. Kevin #106843 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:15 pm Subject: Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties. . truth_aerator Hi Kevin, all, >A: First, how do you know which monks have and have not? I am not >very convinced when people make this broad statements like "there >are no aryans today" or "no one has achieved jhana" that would >require super powers and Buddha's power of knowledge of others >faculties. > > > Kevin: No one said those things. Someone did. >Alex: Second: RobK2 sometimes likes to quote Nettipakarana about >what people will dull wisdom (again, how can he speak for ALL >people? Does he have super powers of the Buddha?). > > >Kevin: Your are confused. Many people including many Arahants had >the eye that could see that. Thus, it has been recorded. Arahants as I understand it, do NOT have the ability to analyze the mind of others and know for sure who is awakened and who isn't. As I understand this, it is a power of Buddha only. In Ptsm the Disciples do not have this power. [Knowledge Not Shared by Disciples ] LXVIII. Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties -- indriyaparopariyatti~nana. LXIX. Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies -- asayanusaya~nana. In DN16 Ananda had to ask the Buddha on spiritual attainments of others. In MN97, ven, Sariputta has misinterpreted the potential of dying Brahmin and misguided him to be reborn in Brahma realm, even though the Brahmin could go further. The Buddha rebuked Sariputta for that. In MN144, Ven. Sariputta after questioning Ven. Channa couldn't realize that Ven. Channa was blameless. So even if ven. Sariputta, An Arahant highest in Wisdom, in person could misjudge another person's capabilities, what of the people today? On what basis, I pray, do people know today that "oh, we are all lowest and dullest class. There are no higher class people today. Thus don't even attempt those other practices." With metta, Alex #106844 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:23 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Ken O , all, frankly speaking I thought my message to you was bit opener than your response .. My intention was first of all to share my conclusive understanding of samatha triggered by Sarah's question.. not to lecture. you wrote: KO: I like to point out that volition can never rest and citta can never take a break because one citta ceases. the other citta arise, it continues due to conditonality.. >D: if ' volition can never rest ' there would be no possibility of cessation of kamma .. please compare e.g. with : >'With regard to kammical volition (i.e. wholesome or unwholesome kamma) it is said in A. VI, 13: "Volition is action (kamma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind." For details, s. pat.iccasamuppa-da (10), kamma.' (Nyanatiloka commenting Cetana) KO: There are three aspects of cetana, one that does volitions, one as a result and one as co-ordinating. D: can you please quote your source ...I do not understand the relation to your point. KO: Cetana is in all cittas. Also even seating down is a volition, an action so one cannot there is no volition. D: why even ? Cetana- and we speak in terms of D.O. , don't we? - means action by body , speech and thought (kamma) . There is a difference between no volition and rest of volition , of the latter I am speaking or more precisely Sankhara Khanda which is present in consciousness (vinnana khanda) . Of course our will of action can rest ..., seating down ( body at rest) , stop speaking and let thinking calm down on the way to tranquillity (Samatha), KO : ( D. >I did not say that citta takes a break... but 'That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path'.) KO: the correct word is withdraw from sense pleasure and not taking a break. D: speaking of correct : the name is Dieter not Deiter ;-) , ' break ' (from jumping) fits to the wellknown monkey simile of the mind I refered to. KO: Sati and jhanas are two different things. D: yes .. did I say something else ...? KO: Jhanas need sati but sati does not require jhanas. There are four ways of concentration and not restricted to jhanas. Let me explain about jhanas, when one said jhanas that investigate into details are supradmunane jhanas and not worlding jhanas. What you see in samatha are jhanas in worldings. One must be careful and not fall into the trapped that in mixing mundane and supramundane. And dont believe in people who tells you that experiencing nama and rupas is practising samatha, that is not possible until jhanas is attained. Thereafter you could do that because the mind is extremely clear able to cognize the different dhammas. with Metta Dieter #106845 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:53 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Dieter and Howard, -------- > snip .. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?' "snip..I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then - quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities - I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated snip ..." D: > The famous Middle Way , but perhaps better to talk about it at different time and place.. --------- I am very glad you chose DSG to talk about the Maha-Saccaka Sutta as much as you did. Thanks to the above, I now think I understand it a little. Previously, I had only seen that sutta quoted in connection with jhana meditation, and so I didn't realise it was about the Middle Way. Jhana is a pleasant state of consciousness, and yet it is not sensual pleasure. It is in the middle between sensual pleasure and sensual pain. It is not *the* middle way discovered by the Buddha, and yet it is *a* middle way, and so it inspired the Buddha to look there (in the middle) for his way to enlightenment. I could still have a wrong interpretation, so corrections are welcome, but thanks anyway. :-) Ken H #106846 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Dieter) - In a message dated 4/16/2010 6:56:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Dieter and Howard, -------- > snip .. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?' "snip..I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then - quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities - I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated snip ..." D: > The famous Middle Way , but perhaps better to talk about it at different time and place.. --------- I am very glad you chose DSG to talk about the Maha-Saccaka Sutta as much as you did. Thanks to the above, I now think I understand it a little. Previously, I had only seen that sutta quoted in connection with jhana meditation, and so I didn't realise it was about the Middle Way. Jhana is a pleasant state of consciousness, and yet it is not sensual pleasure. It is in the middle between sensual pleasure and sensual pain. It is not *the* middle way discovered by the Buddha, and yet it is *a* middle way, and so it inspired the Buddha to look there (in the middle) for his way to enlightenment. I could still have a wrong interpretation, so corrections are welcome, but thanks anyway. :-) Ken H ======================================= Ken, I think your point (about "a" middle way) is a good one. There is more to discuss with regard to this sutta, though. The Buddha recalled and returned to this sort of meditation (and jhana) having already attained all that his "Jhana teachers" knew and having found it all to be to no avail, and yet this return to "jhana" set him on his way to full awakening. This calls out for explanation, it seems to me. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106847 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------- <. . .> H: > Ken, I think your point (about "a" middle way) is a good one. There is more to discuss with regard to this sutta, though. The Buddha recalled and returned to this sort of meditation (and jhana) having already attained all that his "Jhana teachers" knew and having found it all to be to no avail, and yet this return to "jhana" set him on his way to full awakening. This calls out for explanation, it seems to me. -------- I probably know from previous threads what you are thinking. You are thinking the Buddha might have discovered a different way of practising the eight mundane jhanas. And that would support your belief that jhana meditation was included in the unique path taught *only by Buddhas*. The alternative view, of course, is that there is only one path - the path of vipassana - and it does not include mundane jhana. Mundane jhana can be developed in conjunction with vipassana and, in extremely rare cases, jhana factors can become objects of vipassana but, apart from that, there is no connection. I think this is made clear in the texts. Sorry! :-) Whenever DSG discusses this sutta I always suggest my own theory. It has never received any support, but I will trot it out again just to keep up with tradition: The Buddha was fully self-enlightened. Even though he had teachers in other matters, he had no teachers with regard to enlightenment. Therefore, if jhana meditation taught him anything with regard to enlightenment, it must have been some instance of self-taught jhana that did so - such as the one under the rose-apple tree. As I said before, I am very pleased that you and Dieter have brought this "middle-way" aspect to my attention. It fits in nicely with my theory. It was the Buddha's self-taught jhana experience that inspired him to look for enlightenment *via a middle way.* Thanks again. Ken H #106848 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:25 am Subject: Re: Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties. . szmicio Dear Alex. > Arahants as I understand it, do NOT have the ability to analyze the mind of others and know for sure who is awakened and who isn't. As I understand this, it is a power of Buddha only. > > In Ptsm the Disciples do not have this power. > > [Knowledge Not Shared by Disciples ] > LXVIII. Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties -- indriyaparopariyatti~nana. > LXIX. Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies -- asayanusaya~nana. L: Could you explain this two ~nanas? Best wishes Lukas #106849 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/16/2010 10:13:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Whenever DSG discusses this sutta I always suggest my own theory. It has never received any support, but I will trot it out again just to keep up with tradition: The Buddha was fully self-enlightened. Even though he had teachers in other matters, he had no teachers with regard to enlightenment. Therefore, if jhana meditation taught him anything with regard to enlightenment, it must have been some instance of self-taught jhana that did so - such as the one under the rose-apple tree. As I said before, I am very pleased that you and Dieter have brought this "middle-way" aspect to my attention. It fits in nicely with my theory. It was the Buddha's self-taught jhana experience that inspired him to look for enlightenment *via a middle way.* Thanks again. ====================================== Ken, don't let this scare you, but I entirely agree with you on this! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106850 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:23 am Subject: Re: Character encoding ptaus1 Hi all, Part 6 - about typing and keyboard layouts on a pc. I don't use pc much and still have XP, so here's what I know - feel free to add if you know more of course. 1. Keyboard layouts can be changed in the Language Bar, which will be visible in the bottom tray as a little blue square with a pair of letters that stand for the language you're using (like "EN" for English). Or it can also be a stand-alone bar. If you can't see the language bar, there are several ways to call it: 1. Right-click on the bottom tray and select "Toolbars" from the pop-up menu. Then you should get another pop-up menu from which you can select Language Bar. 2. Start -> Settings -> Control Panel -> Regional and Language Options -> Languages -> Details -> Text Services and Input languages -> Language Bar 2. If you see only a little blue square with two letters in it to signify the particular language you are currently using, then click on it and you'll get a pop-up menu with various languages that are enabled and an option "Show language bar". When you click on that option you'll get a full language bar together with other options that includes keyboard layouts (with a little picture of a keyboard next to it). That keyboard layout option will be visible only if different keyboard layouts for a particular language you are using are actually enabled. If this option is not there, that means you have only the standard layout enabled, which most likely isn't unicode-based. More about enabling other keyboard layouts in point 4 below. 3. If you don't have an appropriate keyboard layout - like for inputing letters with Pali diacritics - you can insert individual characters via the Character Map which can be called by clicking (XP): Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools -> Character Map. This will work in most applications, including your browser. Microsoft Word also has a similar feature that you can call in the Word by clicking Insert -> Symbol. Once Character Map (or the Symbol window) opens, first select the Font - I think "Arial Unicode MS" should have all the characters one would need - Latin, Pali, Devanagari, Thai, Chinese, etc, so then just select the characters you need from it. Obviously, this feature works well if you need only a few letters to insert. But if you type a lot of Pali with diacritics for example, then you'd need a better way to do this. Now, in Word, in the same Symbol window, you can actually create shortcuts (Like Ctrl+Alt+n for n.) for the characters you use often, which is very nice. But for some reason, these shortcuts don't seem to carry over into other applications as far as I can tell. So, to type Pali in a browser for example, you'd need an actual keyboard layout that would handle inputting Pali letters with diacritics. 4. There are many Unicode keyboard layouts made with Pali diacritics in mind specifically: http://www.tipitaka.org/keyboard/ This page has several keyboards for various base-languages - English, German, Dutch, etc. And it also has really nice instructions in pictures regarding how exactly to install and enable the keyboard layouts you download, as well as a list of shortcuts for specific letters. http://www.aimwell.org/Fonts/Keyboards/keyboards.html A custom made Pali keyboard from Bhikkhu Pesala. If you want to make your own custom keyboard, you can use this application: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=FB7B3DCD-D4C1-4943-9C74\ -D8DF57EF19D7&displaylang=en Next time, hopefully about macros and a summary. Best wishes pt #106851 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:35 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal Hi Ken, ======== > >S: Again, I was asking to hear your understanding about how ‘recitation’ > >acts as condition. It is obvious that hearing the Dhamma expressed in a > >way that is suitable for the arising of Pariyatti understanding is > >crucial. In this regard, I can understand for example, Pariyatti > >understanding arising upon hearing and with considering the Dhamma. Are > >you saying then that recitation is like repeated ‘right consideration’ > >of the Dhamma? > KO: Pariyatti or intellectual understanding is still convetional. Suk: You probably mean that it has ‘concept’ as object? Surely understanding is understanding, an ultimate reality and not conventional…? ======== KO: That does not mean the person who take up a recitation subject does not listen to dhamma. They do listen like you or me. They still require understand dhamma from their teachers or they will not clearly comprehen that dhamma is not self. So this is the similiarity between the two bhavanas. The thought that samatha bhavana is just simply meditation or recitation is not correct. Suk: OK, I get your point. You are saying for example, that those who approach a teacher for some instruction in samatha meditation also gets to hear some Dhamma and this helps to steer them towards the correct practice. Whatever the so-called samatha practice is, in such as case, I’d think that it would be more appropriate that the student approach in order to listen and perhaps discuss, rather than to practice, don’t you think? If one approaches with the idea of receiving instructions then one’s attention is not on understanding what samatha is. In which case how effective would any general talk on samatha be? Would the aim not be at getting results which makes it in fact the opposite of detachment? ========= KO: > If I will to explain, then it would using samatha bhavana and not vipassana bhavana. Recitation has a few purposes > a. It places the mind on dhamma Suk: Only when understanding is involved from the very beginning, otherwise it would condition more attachment. And if there is understanding, recitation is not necessary at all. The need to hear and consider the Dhamma over an endlessly long period of time is not the same as much recitation. ========== KO: > b. It breaks out the compactness of thinking there is self > These conditions the mind towards the soulness, slowl eradication the mental proliferation of the ditthi arise with perversion of sanna. Suk: Again it is all about panna. And if there is enough panna, one sentence is enough for penetration. The process is Suttamaya panna > Cintamaya panna > Bhavanamaya panna. Therefore if one keeps repeating and say there is only Suttamaya panna then, there will need to be much Cintamaya panna at other times and also Bhavanamaya panna before there can be any real ‘breaks out the compactness of thinking there is self’. ========= S: > >You will agree that the concepts thought about are meaningful only when > >there is any level of panna. So in the case of the Sotapanna above, it > >could be that the habit of repeating was part of the accumulations, more > >importantly however, developed panna was also very much there. So for > >him repeating each time, verbally and then mentally, chances are that > >panna arose very often and got stronger and stronger. But then wouldn’t > >this exactly reflect on panna as being the leader and repetition being > >some thing that was more or less peculiar to him? > KO: In Visud, the person who recites is yet a sotapanna, he use it as a method to attain sotapanna. Suk: Yes, I wasn’t thinking that he was already a Sotapanna, but to have become one he’d have to have very high level of panna nevertheless, don’t you think? ========= S: > >Ken, when hearing about people during the Buddha’s time attaining > >enlightenment while doing this or that or with this or that samatha > >object, it is natural to form a mental picture about what possibly was > >going on. However, I think it sign of some wrong thinking when we > >imagine that what they did could be simulated and repeated by someone > >else at a later time. In other words I believe it must be papanca of one > >kind or another; in fact in this case likely ditthi is the main > >influence. Also I suspect that how you arrive at the conclusion is > >basically no different from how the meditators, who you otherwise so > >often caution against ‘wrong practice’, arrive at theirs. > > >S: But I go there to discuss / learn, not to look for a method? > KO: I dont disagree with that as I said ordinary people should not undertake a meditation subject. Suk: I think here itself you go wrong. To think that someone who has the required accumulation could pursue with the development by ‘deciding’ to take some meditation subject seems more like following the path of rules and rituals than the development of samatha. The person who is developing samatha arrives at the particular subject by virtue of his accumulations. He does not choose between different subjects nor can any teacher simply decide to pick one out for him. And once he has his particular subject, what leads must as always be panna which arises to know the moment and not to follow any prescribed activity. ========= KO: Many of them do not have a proper understanding of samatha bhavana They taught they just follow the ancient master forgetting the virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension. But there is samatha bhavana without doubt and the method used. Suk: Rather than replacing one set of concepts with another, I think they should be encouraged to keep listening to and discussing the Dhamma. And even if they are interested only in Samatha, they’d still need to always come back to the present moment. To feed them with the idea that they need to first develop virtue before they can go on to follow a prescribed method for samatha development, seems in fact quite misleading. ========= KO: Natural is not the word, it should be suitability of object to the practitioner. Wrong practise only arise with wrong view of the practise but not the practise itself. We must be clear on this distinction. Suk: There is samatha development of course, the question is, does it involve “following a method”? You say it does, and I say this is wrong understanding about samatha. ========= KO: > I dont arise the same conclusion with meditators because I know the difficulty in dong samatha bhavana after reading the texts over and over again. However, I have a certain understanding on the similiarities of both practise and their differences. So I dont impose vipassana on samatha, I want to help them to understand what is samatha as in the texts. I have no percularity or qualms about methods, practices or rules, actions because I know it is not these that cause the arising of mental proliferation, it is akusala dhamma that arise with it. Suk: I wasn’t talking about the final ‘conclusion’. I know that yours is different from that of those other people. I was talking about interpreting certain things in the texts to arrive at the conclusion about a particular conventional activity, namely meditation, as being necessary part of ‘practice’ (samatha in your case). In this respect I was therefore not talking about mental proliferation arising due to engaging in such a practice, but that the very idea that such practice / methods exists *is* itself a result of papanca. ========= > KO: Just like chanda, if there is no chanda will you go to listen to AS talk. The thinking that one should not wish is basing on inadequate understanding of the distinct functions of paramatha dhammas. If chanda dont arise, one will not be interest to listen or wish to learn. Why? because panna dont interest, dont will, dont strive. If these dhamma arise, then one will listen, one will make effort to go to listen due to one interest that arise with panna. But who make this effort or will or interest, it is dhamma and not a self. Suk: No one is denying the role of chanda here; I don’t understand why you see the need to bring this up. Sure there must be chanda involved in any conventional activity from reading the Dhamma, going out for a walk or sitting down to follow the breath. The question is, is there panna at anytime? The interest in reading can be with attachment, with wrong view or there can be Right Understanding. When walking there can be attachment, but in between there can be some level of panna to know any object. The interest in samatha manifested as a decision to sit and meditate, this I can’t see as involving panna of any level. This is the point Ken and not that I am confusing the functions of the various dhammas. ========= KO: That should be the correct persepective of paramatha dhamma be it conventional or paramatha level and not keep thinking that any action or wishes or effort is deffinitely associated with a self. And if the paramatha level dhamma does not arise to perform is function, will one do it conventionally. Suk: So now I ask you, is chanda to seek a quiet place to sit and meditate after having reasoned that this is a ‘method’ to follow, is this possibly rooted in any level of wisdom? If so, what does panna understand at such a moment? Cheers ;-) Metta, Sukinder #106852 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Dieter > >KO: Cetana is in all cittas. Also even seating down is a volition, an action so one cannot there is no volition. > >D: why even ? Cetana- and we speak in terms of D.O. , don't we? - means action by body , speech and thought (kamma) . >There is a difference between no volition and rest of volition , of the latter I am speaking or more precisely Sankhara Khanda which is present in consciousness (vinnana khanda) . >Of course our will of action can rest ..., seating down ( body at rest) , stop speaking and let thinking calm down on the way to tranquillity (Samatha), KO:? Voliton can never rest is the meaning of cetana as chief of co-ordinating the cetaikas onto an object .??Volition is also willing?and when the ten wholesome and unwholesome, it is the cause.? Result is ripen from the cause like seeing, etc.? So in other suttanta text, kamma is the cause and the effect.? The effect is another aspect of cetana only happens when kamma ripens and not to mixed up with cetana as kamma as cause.? The meaning of D.O is that cause and effect cannot take place at one citta.? It must?be two different cittas, one is the sense cittas, seeing citta is the?result of kamma (formations), the other citta is?the javana process of the seeing sense process, which is going to be the cause of the next result (bhavana). Even?when you will to rest, it is volition that made you to rest, without volition directing and co-ordinating?the cetasikas onto the object of rest, you will not be able to perform this function.? So seating down, is already directed by cetana or will be cetana.? Even sleeping must be directed or will?by cetana through the rupa intimation process.?? Thinking can never calm down because it is the nature for citta to?think, the calming down in jhanas?is another?equanimity?cetasika?together with?the suppression?of vittaka and vicara with mindfulness as a guard against sense objects.? That is the reason why jhanas could only be achieve through virture?? and mindfulness.? The mind, is restraint and protected from unprofitable states as?these unprofitable states?are the cause of restlessness, agitation and excitement?of the citta thus inhibiting tranquility.. > >KO : ( D. >I did not say that citta takes a break... but 'That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path'.) > >KO: the correct word is withdraw from sense pleasure and not taking a break. > >D: speaking of correct : the name is Dieter not Deiter ;-) , ' break ' (from jumping) fits to the wellknown monkey simile of the mind I refered to. KO:??My?apology, no disrespect meant.? The nature of the mind of rising and falling?is continuous and the?break happens unless one is in PariNibbana.?? Jhanas is not to break from any sensual objects, it is to withdraw from sensual objects because it is not possible to break cittas.? The well known monkey smile is to say that the mind keep moving from object to objects.? It is?usually use in the aksuala, like cravning, conceit and ditthi.??The mind keep craving for an object.??? Even if one attain enlightement, citta continue to move from object to object just the difference is?that the ariyan has eradicated akusala cetasikas and latency and not eradicated cittas.? >KO: Sati and jhanas are two different things. > >D: yes .. did I say something else ...? > >KO:? I just like to be clear on the terms and not equating jhana as sati.? Cheers Kind regards Ken O #106853 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello chewsadhu Dear Ken O, I am sorry that I don't have. If you have found the commentaries in Chinese for the Tipitaka, please inform me too. Thanks. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Chew > > dont have commentaries, do you have one that have commentaries > > thank you > Ken O #106854 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin Dear Sukin > >Suk: You probably mean that it has ‘concept’ as object? Surely understanding is understanding, an ultimate reality and not conventional…? > KO: what we understand now, pariyatti is conventional and not at paramatha dhamma level yet. Yes understanding is an utlimate reality but what we know at our level is conventional. it is still conventional panna and not yet vipassana nana panna. It is through this conventional understanding we develop panna keener and keener to vipassana nana level. >======== > >Suk: OK, I get your point. You are saying for example, that those who approach a teacher for some instruction in samatha meditation also gets to hear some Dhamma and this helps to steer them towards the correct practice. > >Whatever the so-called samatha practice is, in such as case, I’d think that it would be more appropriate that the student approach in order to listen and perhaps discuss, rather than to practice, don’t you think? If one approaches with the idea of receiving instructions then one’s attention is not on understanding what samatha is. In which case how effective would any general talk on samatha be? Would the aim not be at getting results which makes it in fact the opposite of detachment? KO: Any practise should not have a desire or expectation to attain result, the practise is to develop more understanding of the dhamma so as to eradicate akusala and end the round of suffering. We cannot say there is no practise because it is very clear in Visud. Also in Visud, it is the chanda, vittaka arise with saddha or panna or both that motivates the discple to receive an samatha subjects from the teacher, The word practise or training does not matter, what matters is the aksuala that arise with it. Just like I have said, rites and ritual by itself there is nothing wrong, it is wrong view that cause it like following the dog ascetism or bathing in the river to cleanse ones kamma. Thus for any practise we must have clear comprehension of the dhamma that is through listening to the teacher and consider the teachings. Without understanding dhamma as anatta, anicca and dukkha, we are likely to go on the wrong practise. > >Suk: Only when understanding is involved from the very beginning, otherwise it would condition more attachment. And if there is understanding, recitation is not necessary at all. The need to hear and consider the Dhamma over an endlessly long period of time is not the same as much recitation. Suk: Again it is all about panna. And if there is enough panna, one sentence is enough for penetration. The process is Suttamaya panna > Cintamaya panna > Bhavanamaya panna. Therefore if one keeps repeating and say there is only Suttamaya panna then, there will need to be much Cintamaya panna at other times and also Bhavanamaya panna before there can be any real ‘breaks out the compactness of thinking there is self’. KO: That is not true because not one size fixed one. that is why there are different samatha objects for different people. Understanding is just one faculty, even though the most impt. There could be other faculty that condition the growth of panna. Also there are other ways to break out from compactness, not just solely on vipassana. The text is clear on this like the recitation of the 32 parts. > >Suk: Yes, I wasn’t thinking that he was already a Sotapanna, but to have become one he’d have to have very high level of panna nevertheless, don’t you think? > KO: He has a certain level of panna without doubt but not vipassana nana yet. That is why I felt many of these samatha practitioners do not understand that meditation is not for ordinary people because the level of understanding and mindfulness is not there. It requires, mindfulness to protect, virture to restraint, panna to understand dhamma. So without these three, the mind will not be able to fix on an object as it will keep looking for sensual objects. >========= >Suk: I think here itself you go wrong. To think that someone who has the required accumulation could pursue with the development by ‘deciding’ to take some meditation subject seems more like following the path of rules and rituals than the development of samatha. > >The person who is developing samatha arrives at the particular subject by virtue of his accumulations. He does not choose between different subjects nor can any teacher simply decide to pick one out for him. And once he has his particular subject, what leads must as always be panna which arises to know the moment and not to follow any prescribed activity. KO: Do you choose to listen to AS now? So what is choosing and what is the object of this listening? >Suk: Rather than replacing one set of concepts with another, I think they should be encouraged to keep listening to and discussing the Dhamma. And even if they are interested only in Samatha, they’d still need to always come back to the present moment. To feed them with the idea that they need to first develop virtue before they can go on to follow a prescribed method for samatha development, seems in fact quite misleading. KO: Nope it is not misleading. It is because one does not understand why it is like that and the need for it. I already explain the importance of virture, mindfulness and clear comprehension above. Also is our understanding now conceptual or paramatha dhamma level. Also is it the concepts that cause the mental proliferation or the dhammas that arise with the concepts that is the cause. Understand this difference, then we will know the actual practise of satipatthana. > >Suk: There is samatha development of course, the question is, does it involve “following a method”? You say it does, and I say this is wrong understanding about samatha. > KO: Then you should show me which text to say it is wrong and there is no method involved. Dont claim under one's understanding or interpretation because Visud and Commentaries have shown there are methods. There are clear instructions like counting breath one to ten in Visud and commentaries, if these are not methods, then what are they? Just because the person likes to count or naturally incline to count? > >Suk: I wasn’t talking about the final ‘conclusion’. I know that yours is different from that of those other people. I was talking about interpreting certain things in the texts to arrive at the conclusion about a particular conventional activity, namely meditation, as being necessary part of ‘practice’ (samatha in your case). In this respect I was therefore not talking about mental proliferation arising due to engaging in such a practice, but that the very idea that such practice / methods exists *is* itself a result of papanca. > >========= KO: What is the cause for the arisen for papanca, the practise or the akusala dhamma that arise? >Suk: No one is denying the role of chanda here; I don’t understand why you see the need to bring this up. Sure there must be chanda involved in any conventional activity from reading the Dhamma, going out for a walk or sitting down to follow the breath. The question is, is there panna at anytime? The interest in reading can be with attachment, with wrong view or there can be Right Understanding. When walking there can be attachment, but in between there can be some level of panna to know any object. The interest in samatha manifested as a decision to sit and meditate, this I can’t see as involving panna of any level. This is the point Ken and not that I am confusing the functions of the various dhammas. > >========= KO: that is because you base on your interpretation of dhamma on vipassana practise. When you listen to dhamma, do you sit, do you lend a ear. So what is the difference, the act or the dhamma. You are not confuse over dhamma, you cannot differentiate the difference between an object and the dhamma that arise with the object. >Suk: So now I ask you, is chanda to seek a quiet place to sit and meditate after having reasoned that this is a ‘method’ to follow, is this possibly rooted in any level of wisdom? If so, what does panna understand at such a moment? KO: Why not, just like you go travel to foundation, you sit down and you liste, so why cant panna arise when meditating. There are so many examples in the suttas and Visud that disciples, recite and meditate and then attain enlightment. Are you saying they are wrong? Kind regards Ken O #106855 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ken O, Chew & all, --- On Sat, 17/4/10, Sadhu Chew wrote: >I am sorry that I don't have. If you have found the commentaries in Chinese for the Tipitaka, please inform me too. .... S: This morning we met our friend Jessica for breakfast. Nina and others will remember Jessica from DSG and from all her good questions in Bangkok one time. We discussed a little more about Chinese translations and she's pretty sure that none of the complete collections of Chinese translations of suttas have been made from the Pali - rather from English translations, Japanese, often based on the (Mahayana) agamas, therefore no commentary translations. Nina, Jessica had spent a couple of months in Myanmar again and had shaved off her hair and ordained. She's been an interpreter and helped take care of the students on retreat. The Burmese Sayadaw has invited her to go back for 2 yrs intensive study of Pali and other topics to train as a meditation teacher. Also recently in Hong Kong she organised a long retreat with a teacher from Malaysia, interpreted and looked after the students. She mentioned many of the problems the meditation students have on the retreats which of course she was involved with - depressions, other mental disturbances, physical difficulties like those discussed recently by pt, Robin and others, sometimes conditioned by the cittas. We discussed the problems associated with 'intensity', wrong concentration, strong attachment to results, clinging to self and so on which of course are very common. The recent retreat had been a '4 brahma-viharas' retreat, but some feel a lot of anguish whilst reciting. We discussed about the brahma viharas in daily life, how we blame circumstances for dosa and depression and how right understanding has to be foremost. She talked about being aware of awareness, trying to be aware in the day of present objects and again I stressed understanding and detachment, letting go of the past, not clinging to particular objects or trying anything. It's a difficult message, but always great meeting and discussing Dhamma with Jessica. We always have fun. She feels her decision about whether to go to Myanmar to study with the Sayadaw for two years is a big one, but then all our decisions seem like big and important ones. Actually, just thinking at this moment.... We also discussed a little more about kamma and vipaka. Usually anything bad that happens, such as the depression or the disturbances mentioned above, are taken for the result of kamma. Distinguishing between results of kamma and unwholesome accumulations which accumulate on and on is very important, otherwise all our unhappiness, all our attachments may be thought to be the result of kamma. Anyway, a most enjoyable occasion for us and interesting to hear her tales and discuss the Dhamma together, stressing on this moment now, which she appreciates. Metta Sarah ========= #106856 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Hi Robin, Thanks for sharing! --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Rob wrote: >The lyrics are from "Gentle on My Mind" an oft covered song composed by the late John Hartford about 43 years ago. >It gets very still here. Sort of. When my daughter visited from Atlanta, the songbirds woke her up at dawn. The morning is like a symphony; with the woodpecker playing percussion. Every now and then, an owl will chime in. Sometimes a big bad crow shows up, and all the other birds hide in the tress and get quiet. At night, the crickets and frogs can get very loud. .... S: I think Jon remembers the song as he started singing when he read your first note.....:-) It reminds my of the symphony I'd hear at night from the incredible collection of birds at Kaeng Krajang in Thailand recently.... and we have a taste of that "stillness" when we stay at the beach in Australia....the waves, the birds, the moon and the stars..... And then back to the traffic noise, the busy crowds, the polluted sky and lights ablaze everywhere here in Hong Kong... And yet, and yet, as we know the real "loudness" or the "stillness" are only ever in the mind at this moment. At a moment of kindness, of generosity, of understanding, the mind is calm and "still", without any disturbance or agitation at all. At other times, no matter the beautiful surroundings, the mind is restless, attached or averse and "loud", without any true peace at all. In the end, seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing no matter where we are. And just visible object that is only ever seen, just sound that is only ever heard, no matter where.... I find this very sobering to remember whilst pursuing objects of attachment most of the day, most of this life. It was the same in past lives and will be the same again in future lives... Metta Sarah ====== #106857 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello ashkenn2k Dear Sarah > >We discussed a little more about Chinese translations and she's pretty sure that none of the complete collections of Chinese translations of suttas have been made from the Pali - rather from English translations, Japanese, often based on the (Mahayana) agamas, therefore no commentary translations. > >Nina, Jessica had spent a couple of months in Myanmar again and had shaved off her hair and ordained. She's been an interpreter and helped take care of the students on retreat. The Burmese Sayadaw has invited her to go back for 2 yrs intensive study of Pali and other topics to train as a meditation teacher. Also recently in Hong Kong she organised a long retreat with a teacher from Malaysia, interpreted and looked after the students. > >She mentioned many of the problems the meditation students have on the retreats which of course she was involved with - depressions, other mental disturbances, physical difficulties like those discussed recently by pt, Robin and others, sometimes conditioned by the cittas. > >We discussed the problems associated with 'intensity', wrong concentration, strong attachment to results, clinging to self and so on which of course are very common. The recent retreat had been a '4 brahma-viharas' retreat, but some feel a lot of anguish whilst reciting. We discussed about the brahma viharas in daily life, how we blame circumstances for dosa and depression and how right understanding has to be foremost. > >She talked about being aware of awareness, trying to be aware in the day of present objects and again I stressed understanding and detachment, letting go of the past, not clinging to particular objects or trying anything. It's a difficult message, but always great meeting and discussing Dhamma with Jessica. We always have fun. > KO:? thanks for the information on the translation.?? I rather not surprise people using retreats as an escape.??Doing recitiation and meditaitons without mindfulness and clear comprehension of the dhamma is rather counter-productive.? Hopefully, more teachers would understand the nature of samatha and try not to encourage students to do meditation.? They should instead explain dhamma, and understand their nature, this would benefit them for a long time.?? IMHO, I felt these teachers always think it is meditation that develop mindfulness and clear comprehension of the dhamma, in actual fact, it is the other way round.? That is why many students who do meditation do not feel their development improved because it is done wrongly. I sincerely dont encourage people to do meditation, what is the point of doing it if?we do not even understand or mindful the dhamma that arise in the present moment.????Lately, we have teachers?promoting meditaton of nama and rupa and said this is vipassana bhavana, this?show how?little they understand?meditation.? Honeslty I would rather suggest they use the samatha?bhavana?in understanding foul of the lovable beings, ownerless?for inanimate objects as a reflection or a reminder?than as a subject of meditation.? Kind regards Ken O #106858 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: Sarah: "I don't understand him to ever be saying to 'do this' or 'do that'. I understand him to be explaining, to be describing what is kusala, what is akusala, what leads to what result, what is conditioned by what, what is the path to enlightenment. He described everything, including all kinds of jhana, all kinds of evil, of course." Scott: Then you don't consider the 'thus, monks, should ye train yourselves' one reads in the suttas to have a literal sense. You would understand this to mean something like: 'thus, monks, is the unfolding of dhammas under suitable conditions.' In other words, you don't consider, as in AN VI 51, when the Buddha suggests that one can 'at least resolve: I will be skilled in the habit of my own thought (sa-citta pariyaaya kusalo; the Comy. is said to explain with attano citt'ovaada kusalo - self-exhortation skilled) that he is referring to any sort of 'resolve' one can actually make. Given that this is the case, it seems to me that a thorough examination of the differences between 'conventional' and 'ultimate' would be in order. Sarah: "If there is no understanding of the realities now, even conceptualy, it is not pariyatti. Again, we can read the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka in Pali, even memorise it, but there may still not be any pariyatti. If we take such reading, study and memorising as something to be done or a method of some kind to develop understanding, this is not pariyatti." Scott: Can you clarify what is meant by a '[conceptual] understanding of the realities now?' This would involve thinking about realities, wouldn't it? This would involve an actual reading, listening, considering, even memorising. I am clear that one cannot read or study or memorise in order to cause understanding - that is as a so-called 'practise.' Despite constant misunderstanding by others, no one has ever said this that I can see. Sarah: "I'm sure sikkhati can have an ordinary meaning as well that would have been in use before the Buddha used it with reference to the path. For example, sikkhaapada, the undertaking of the precepts. When it is used in the context of study/training with regard to nibbana, it's referring to the development of satipatthana and the sekkha is the learner, the ariyan disciple, not yet an arahat." Scott: I'm not sure whether this is a point that Ken O. is trying to make, but it's got me thinking about 'ordinary meaning.' (And yes, I am considering Ken O.'s material - not simply advancing my own silly ideas in the guise of wondering what he's trying to say. I don't like what I have to think on any matter, really. I just see Ken O. as another person seemingly 'in-line' with what might be called 'the party line' and who then seems to make some shift in the direction of advocating some sort of 'practise'-friendly stance. I'm very curious about the apparently strong gravitational pull held by these sorts of ideas, and what might underlie such a shift in thinking. I like the discussion amongst 'non-meditators' here on the list because it avoids some of the very hackneyed, repetitive, and unnecessary debates so common to discussion with 'meditation' advocates whose only interest seems to be proselytism. I think, though, that 'dsg dogmatism' might be a culprit in some of these endlessly circular discussions. This is why I'd like a bit of clarification on the place of 'ordinary meanings,' for example.) S: "...We're not yet learners and yet it's the same in the sense that it's the present understanding that matters. We listen to and discuss seeing and visible object and other paramattha dhammas because there is the understanding and confidence that this is what life is at this moment and that's all that matters. It's not because we set any rule or method for doing this." Scott: Okay, agreed. For this there is no 'method.' Consider this, though: We do listen and discuss and these activities involve certain dhammas, the arising and falling away of which, in a succession and aided by the function of sa~n~naa and citass'ekagatta, amount to the experience of holistic thinking about Dhamma. Is it possible that the Buddha simply teaches ordinary people to think about things in a certain way - that this is the way to describe the 'conventional' Dhamma? This 'certain way' would be Dhamma since the Dhamma is certainly contained in a conceptual form to be read or listened to. Sincerely, Scott. #106859 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Howard and Ken H The jhanas that experience by Buddha would still be worldly jhanas at his childhood days.? It cannot be supramundane jhanas.? The sentence <> this is the typical describing of a jhanas that withdraw from sense pleasure, not to mix up with supradmundance jhanas at the point of thinking.? At the point of jhanas,?it is withdrawal from senses pleasure hence it?got nothing?to do with?sensuality?and?the jhanas cittas must be kusala so it?got nothing to do with unskilfful mental qualities.? ?However, when at the moment?he experience the jhanas and not thinking about it, IMHO?that to me at that point, the jhanas is supradmundane thereafter the insight occurs.?? The characteristic of feelings is the same whether one is in sense pleasure or jhanas, it is the intensity of the feelings that make the feelings different.? Comparing jhanas with sense world, pleasant feeling in the jhanas is superior and subtle.? This is also not about middle way as per se, it just describing the jhanas as path factor in 8NP for those with the ability to do jhanas.? Buddha in his past lifes have attain jhanas in many of his lifes. Kind regards Ken O #106860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] fleeting moments of intentions nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 16-apr-2010, om 11:33 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I also talked a little about the world of dreams and anatta. At the > end he asked me to drop by with a "beginner book on Buddhism". > Which book would you recommend? I did mention a little about there > only being mental and physical phenomena, so he might be > able to appreciate one of Nina's books. What do you think? ------ N: Interesting conversation you had. what about Buddhism in Daily Life? Or the Buddha's Path? Or that small booklet you took last time in Bgk. Understanding Reality. Nina. #106861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta nilovg Dear Han and Sarah, Op 16-apr-2010, om 10:40 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Like Nina, I also appreciate your sharing of the comments by the > Burmese Sayadaws. ------- N: Han I was missing you. I thought, maybe he is very busy on the other list that you inherited from Htoo. Getting curious. It must be very good. Nina. #106862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mana - conceit nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 16-apr-2010, om 8:05 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What is the characteristic of mana, when it arises? > > There can be mana like a strong pride and also more subtle like > cultivation of kusala and thining this is easy. > > Does the characteristic of mana can be known? > > What is important? This useless thining or just seeing thinking is > only thinking? -------- N: You ask very hard questions. Before the first stage of vipassanaa ~naa.na, knowing the difference between naama and ruupa, it is hard to understand precisely naama. We mix it so much with ruupa, or we mix thinking and seeing. Meanwhile when we notice that there is mana, it is usually thinking about it. And even thinking: we can notice it, but it is usually thinking about thinking. So, let us not try to know specific realities. And we do not mind that there is usually thinking, we understand that it is conditioned. Nina. #106863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana still possible? / useful nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 15-apr-2010, om 22:27 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > I hope everything works out well and easily for you at the house. -------- N: Perhaps trying to do too many things, that is why I am behind too, even reading mails. Some projects, these take time. Nina. #106864 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Dear Sarah, the beginning quote of the song is very poetical, but I find your end the best music I can hear, truly. I want to hear that often: seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing no matter where we are. Nina. Op 17-apr-2010, om 13:05 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > And then back to the traffic noise, the busy crowds, the polluted > sky and lights ablaze everywhere here in Hong Kong... > > And yet, and yet, as we know the real "loudness" or the "stillness" > are only ever in the mind at this moment. At a moment of kindness, > of generosity, of understanding, the mind is calm and "still", > without any disturbance or agitation at all. At other times, no > matter the beautiful surroundings, the mind is restless, attached > or averse and "loud", without any true peace at all. > > In the end, seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing no matter where we > are. And just visible object that is only ever seen, just sound > that is only ever heard, no matter where.... I find this very > sobering to remember whilst pursuing objects of attachment most of > the day, most of this life. It was the same in past lives and will > be the same again in future lives... #106865 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Dear Sarah, I read with great interest about Jessica. Yes, she is full of fun. Myanmar is a good place for studying Pali. A friend, Florent, also does the same in Myanmar, he could not make it to visit Thailand, you remember. There is a nun there who is greatly interested in Abhidhamma, she will be in good hands. I think bhikkhunis are not recognized there, just 'me chi' like in Thailand, with eight precepts. Give Jessica my warmest regards, Nina. Op 17-apr-2010, om 12:45 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Anyway, a most enjoyable occasion for us and interesting to hear > her tales and discuss the Dhamma together, stressing on this moment > now, which she appreciates. #106866 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, KenO (and KenH) - In a message dated 4/17/2010 10:22:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard and Ken H The jhanas that experience by Buddha would still be worldly jhanas at his childhood days. It cannot be supramundane jhanas. ------------------------------------------------ I didn't mean to imply anything about "supramundane." I only meant to imply that the Buddha jhanas were different from those taught by his Brahman teachers, and that they were not states of such extreme, absorbed focus that investigation of phenomena was impossible therein. -------------------------------------------- The sentence <> this is the typical describing of a jhanas that withdraw from sense pleasure, not to mix up with supradmundance jhanas at the point of thinking. At the point of jhanas, it is withdrawal from senses pleasure hence it got nothing to do with sensuality and the jhanas cittas must be kusala so it got nothing to do with unskilfful mental qualities. However, when at the moment he experience the jhanas and not thinking about it, IMHO that to me at that point, the jhanas is supradmundane thereafter the insight occurs. The characteristic of feelings is the same whether one is in sense pleasure or jhanas, it is the intensity of the feelings that make the feelings different. Comparing jhanas with sense world, pleasant feeling in the jhanas is superior and subtle. This is also not about middle way as per se, it just describing the jhanas as path factor in 8NP for those with the ability to do jhanas. Buddha in his past lifes have attain jhanas in many of his lifes. ------------------------------------------------------ Having recalled his (obviously different) rose-apple tree meditation - obviously different inasmuch as the 8 jhanas taught by his teachers accomplished little to nothing as regards awakening, the Buddha then backed off from his extreme regimen, took sustenance, and then reengaged in that childhood, rose-apple-tree meditative process, entering 4 jhanas in none of which was he overcome by it's pleasantness, and from within the 4th of these attained awakening. I think an objective reading of this sutta shows this to be so. -------------------------------------------------------- Kind regards Ken O =============================== With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #106867 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mana - conceit ashkenn2k Dear Lukas To understand pride in layman terms, it is just?the thought one is good, the best,? or one is better than someone else or inferior than someone else.? Cultivation of kuasala and thinking it is easy, may not be pride, it could be moha.? Pride is bascially the?symptoms of?comparing with others with one ability, intelligence, posession as they are most common L: I dont want those fleeting moments. I dont like good intentions even, they are so fleeting. good intentions are kusala, and Buddha say this needs a cultivation.? the cultivation is possible, but there is so much misery in those good intentions. There is dukkha in good intention.? KO:? ? When you said I dont want these fleeting moments - it is just dosa, and not Lukas that dont want.?? Or you could relfect in this way, could Lukas have dosa, that is not possible because?it is not the function of miccha ditthi (that thinks of Lukas)?to have dosa.? I as in miccha ditthi cannot perform dosa or have unplesant feelings, miccha ditthi only thinks of an I or self.? Dosa angers, feeling feels.? :-)?.????Understand dhamma?by its characteristics, and?you could?slowly develop the?understanding that it is just?dhamma at work and not an I.??It is the dhamma that matters, dont be concern about the concepts be it living beings or inaninmate objects that make you angry, it is the dosa that angers that matters. or you could follow the seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching?and thinking, that is developing understanding by the citta way.? No hard and fast rules, just choose the one that suits you.? I use whatever ways that is the most helpful at that time, when I notice?smelling, it is just smelling, I also consider what smells.?? I cannot smell as it is not the function of I to smell, it is smelling citta that smells.? Dont worry if it is thinking, there is kusala thinking which is wise consideration or akusala thinking like?what will happen to us in future.? What is impt is dhamma? :-) cheers Ken O #106868 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Howard >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ >Having recalled his (obviously different) rose-apple tree meditation - >obviously different inasmuch as the 8 jhanas taught by his teachers >accomplished little to nothing as regards awakening, the Buddha then backed off >from his extreme regimen, took sustenance, and then reengaged in that >childhood, rose-apple-tree meditative process, entering 4 jhanas in none of which >was he overcome by it's pleasantness, and from within the 4th of these >attained awakening. I think an objective reading of this sutta shows this to >be so. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------- KO:? there?are only?two kinds of jhanas, mundane and supramundane.?? The jhanas he learnt from his two ex masters are the same he experience in the rose apple tree.? The obvious reason why it is not attribute to the jhanas masters because it is not to attribute his attainment to other ascetics.? kind regareds Ken O #106869 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Ken O. and Howard, Regading" KO: "there are only two kinds of jhanas, mundane and supramundane. The jhanas he learnt from his two ex masters are the same he experience in the rose apple tree. The obvious reason why it is not attribute to the jhanas masters because it is not to attribute his attainment to other ascetics. Scott: I agree, Ken. Jhaana-citta is what it is. It is simply a type of consciousness and conascent mental factors. I think that to believe that the Buddha taught some sort of other 'jhaana' is an artifact of the meditation industry. Such a misrepresentation is required by this industry and serves to both inflate the importance of jhaana and totally misconstrue it - that is, 'meditation' (which, as it is described by practitioners, not jhaana). Sincerely, Scott. #106870 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:51 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Ken H ( Howard, and ..), you wrote: '' Previously, I had only seen that sutta quoted in connection with jhana meditation, and so I didn't realise it was about the Middle Way. Jhana is a pleasant state of consciousness, and yet it is not sensual pleasure. It is in the middle between sensual pleasure and sensual pain 'As I said before, I am very pleased that you and Dieter have brought this "middle-way" aspect to my attention. It fits in nicely with my theory. It was the Buddha's self-taught jhana experience that inspired him to look for enlightenment *via a middle way.* Thanks again.' D: I am pleased as well to find something in common , rather than that what is different in view. ;-) You may like to contemplate the issue of 'pleasant state ' further .. and I assume that following sutta will find your interest (though it has been mentioned a couple of times recently I like to quote it in full length because it treats a couple of related issues ) with Metta Dieter M.N. 59 Bahuvedaniya Sutta , translated by Ven .Nyanaponika ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.059.nypo.html ) Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery.1 Then Carpenter Fivetools went to see the Venerable Udayi. Having saluted him respectfully, he sat down at one side. Thus seated, he asked the Venerable Udayi: "How many kinds of feelings, reverend Udayi, were taught by the Blessed One?" "Three kinds of feelings, Carpenter, were taught by the Blessed One: pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. These are the three feelings taught by the Blessed One." After these words, Carpenter Fivetools said: "Not three kinds of feelings, reverend Udayi, were taught by the Blessed One. It is two kinds of feelings that were stated by the Blessed One: pleasant and painful feelings. The neutral feeling was said by the Blessed One to belong to peaceful and sublime happiness." But the Venerable Udayi replied: "It is not two feelings that were taught by the Blessed One, but three: pleasant, painful and neutral feelings." (This exchange of views was repeated for a second and a third time,) but neither was Carpenter Fivetools able to convince the Venerable Udayi, nor could the Venerable Udayi convince Carpenter Fivetools. It so happened that [the] Venerable Ananda had listened to that conversation and went to see the Blessed One about it. Having saluted the Blessed One respectfully, he sat down at one side. Thus seated, he repeated the entire conversation that had taken place between the Venerable Udayi and Carpenter Fivetools. The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings.2 So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation. "Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words. "Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who agree with, consent to, and accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will live in concord and amity, without dispute, like milk (that easily mixes) with water, looking at each other with friendly eyes. "There are five strands of sense desire. What are these five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sensual desire and tempting to lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body, that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sense desire, and tempting to lust. These are the five strands of sense desire. The pleasure and joy arising dependent on these five strands of sense desire, that is called sensual pleasure. "Now, if someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure and joy that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana), which is accompanied by thought conception and discursive thinking and has in it joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that (sense) pleasure and is more sublime. "If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is that pleasure? Here, with the stilling of thought conception and discursive thinking... a monk enters upon and abides in the second meditative absorption... in the sphere of the infinity of space... of the infinity of consciousness... of no-thingness... of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. "If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, by completely surmounting the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a monk enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime.3 "It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?' "Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'" That is what the Blessed One said. The venerable Ananda was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words #106871 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:52 pm Subject: Re: mana - conceit szmicio Dear Ken O, > L: I dont want those fleeting moments. I dont like good intentions even, they are so fleeting. good intentions are kusala, and Buddha say this needs a cultivation.? the cultivation is possible, but there is so much misery in those good intentions. There is dukkha in good intention.? > > KO:? ? When you said I dont want these fleeting moments - it is just dosa, and not Lukas that dont want.? L: Sometimes there is dosa, anager. But I meant the moments when I cannot be happy of anything. Good intention appears and then it's gone in instant. No happiness in it. How this can be happieness if it impermanent and not mine? >K:? Or you could relfect in this way, could Lukas have dosa, that is >not possible because?it is not the function of miccha ditthi (that thinks of Lukas)?to have dosa.? I as in miccha ditthi cannot perform dosa or have unplesant feelings, miccha ditthi only thinks of an I or self. ?Dosa angers, feeling feels.? :-)?.????Understand dhamma?by its characteristics, and?you could?slowly develop the?understanding that it is just?dhamma at work and not an I.??It is the dhamma that matters, dont be concern about the concepts be it living beings or inaninmate objects that make you angry, it is the dosa that angers that matters. L: Today I was reading Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. Acharn said only citta now that experience. Then I had a few moments of rest. The mind applies to that. Characteristic of experiencing, and so much forgetfulness during the day, and so good to hear good Dhamma. > or you could follow the seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching?and thinking, that is developing understanding by the citta way.? No hard and fast rules, just choose the one that suits you.? L: I've tried to put attention to seeing and hearing. Just more ignorance. But being reminded from time to time this is so wonderful. Good Lukas, sometimes. > I use whatever ways that is the most helpful at that time, when I notice?smelling, it is just smelling, I also consider what smells.?? I cannot smell as it is not the function of I to smell, it is smelling citta that smells.? L: This is also good to be reminded of kicca of seeing and hearing. Different classification for different time. Vibhajavada is such constructed that it conditions understanding after reading different vibhangas. This is never studying of the Texts like scholars do. Buddha and Theras knew this so this is why they go with such detailed vibhangas. Best wishes Lukas #106872 From: "colette" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ksheri3 Hi Guys, Ya know, this entire discussion on Jhanas totally reminds me of "Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences" where A.Maslow states a need for a stable base, a foundation, actually his words are a "Plattue" being established at these new levels of enlightenment or "peak experience" so that the practitioner can become accustomed to the rarified air (see "Sherpas", Himilayas) of these new "conditions of existance" so that even greater advances can be made to higher levels of bliss, etc. > Having recalled his (obviously different) rose-apple tree meditation - > obviously different inasmuch as the 8 jhanas taught by his teachers > accomplished little to nothing as regards awakening, the Buddha then backed off > from his extreme regimen, took sustenance, and then reengaged in that > childhood, rose-apple-tree meditative process, entering 4 jhanas in none of which > was he overcome by it's pleasantness, and from within the 4th of these > attained awakening. I think an objective reading of this sutta shows this to > be so. colette: but lets no forget that this last paragraph was set up by the discussion that preceded this last paragraph. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, KenO (and KenH) - > > In a message dated 4/17/2010 10:22:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@... writes: > > Dear Howard and Ken H > > The jhanas that experience by Buddha would still be worldly jhanas at his > childhood days. It cannot be supramundane jhanas. > ------------------------------------------------ > I didn't mean to imply anything about "supramundane." I only meant to > imply that the Buddha jhanas were different from those taught by his > Brahman teachers, and that they were not states of such extreme, absorbed focus > that investigation of phenomena was impossible therein. > -------------------------------------------- > > The sentence > < that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I > thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with > sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no > longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, > nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy > to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated snip ...">> > > this is the typical describing of a jhanas that withdraw from sense > pleasure, not to mix up with supradmundance jhanas at the point of thinking. At > the point of jhanas, it is withdrawal from senses pleasure hence it got > nothing to do with sensuality and the jhanas cittas must be kusala so it got > nothing to do with unskilfful mental qualities. However, when at the > moment he experience the jhanas and not thinking about it, IMHO that to me at > that point, the jhanas is supradmundane thereafter the insight occurs. > > The characteristic of feelings is the same whether one is in sense > pleasure or jhanas, it is the intensity of the feelings that make the feelings > different. Comparing jhanas with sense world, pleasant feeling in the jhanas > is superior and subtle. > > This is also not about middle way as per se, it just describing the jhanas > as path factor in 8NP for those with the ability to do jhanas. Buddha in > his past lifes have attain jhanas in many of his lifes. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Having recalled his (obviously different) rose-apple tree meditation - > obviously different inasmuch as the 8 jhanas taught by his teachers > accomplished little to nothing as regards awakening, the Buddha then backed off > from his extreme regimen, took sustenance, and then reengaged in that > childhood, rose-apple-tree meditative process, entering 4 jhanas in none of which > was he overcome by it's pleasantness, and from within the 4th of these > attained awakening. I think an objective reading of this sutta shows this to > be so. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > =============================== > With metta, > Howard > > Samatha & Vipassana > > /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with > no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of > Unbinding./ > > (Dhammapada 372) > #106873 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:03 pm Subject: Re: Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties. . truth_aerator Dear Lukas, Kevin, Rob2K, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Alex. > > > Arahants as I understand it, do NOT have the ability to analyze the mind of others and know for sure who is awakened and who isn't. As I understand this, it is a power of Buddha only. > > > > In Ptsm the Disciples do not have this power. > > > > [Knowledge Not Shared by Disciples ] > > LXVIII. Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties -- indriyaparopariyatti~nana. > > LXIX. Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies -- asayanusaya~nana. > > L: Could you explain this two ~nanas? > > Best wishes > Lukas In Ptsm there is talk about various nanas. Some of them are reachable by disciples and some are exclusively for the Buddhas. The indriyaparopariyatti~nana is the Buddha's ability to see the quality of other being's 5 faculties (conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom). Such as whether one has dull or bright faculties, is easy or hard to instruct, with much or little dust in the eyes. The next nana is Buddha's ability to see asava & anusaya of beings. To see what they consider important. Also here the Buddha can see who are capable and who are incapable. The point I like to repeat again is that ONLY A BUDDHA can see and know who has dull and who has bright faculties. None of us can know for sure the maturity of faculties of others. In MN97, ven, Sariputta has misinterpreted the potential of dying Brahmin and misguided him to be reborn in Brahma realm even though that Brahmin could go further. The Buddha rebuked Sariputta for that. In MN144, Ven. Sariputta after questioning Ven. Channa, in person, couldn't realize that Ven. Channa was blameless. So even if ven. Sariputta, An Arahant highest in Wisdom, in person, could misjudge another person's capabilities & potential, what of the people today? On what basis, I pray, do people know today that "oh, we are all lowest and dullest class. There are no higher class people today. Thus don't even attempt those other practices." So it is a pure speculation to say that "you are dull witted (neyya/padaparama), thus follow this set of instructions in Netti". Commentaries written by commentators, DO NOT COUNT, as none other but the Buddha could actually know these things. Even Ven. Sariputta couldn't with absolute certainty and with clairvoyance know the capability of another person. With metta, Alex #106874 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:12 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, Dieter and Colette, It's nice to be in agreement on a few things, but let's be clear as to what they are. As I see it, the Buddha (as a Bodhisatta) attained all eight levels of jhana, but none of them led to enlightenment. So he tried asceticism, but again without success. He then took those same eight jhanas as objects of vipassana, whereupon he did attain enlightenment. So it was the vipassana that led to enlightenment not the jhanas (or the asceticism). All other arahants - with the exception of chief disciples and pacceka Buddhas - attain after taking ordinary (non-jhana) dhammas as objects of vipassana. Those are the relevant facts as I see them, and I think we still differ on them, don't we? I am not sure where the rose-apple sutta fits in. My personal theory (always to be taken with a grain of salt) about the "self-enlightenment" factor was at best a side issue. :-) Ken H #106875 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. was: Nama vs Citta hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, > > Sarah: Like Nina, I also appreciate your sharing of the comments by the Burmese Sayadaws. > Nina: Han I was missing you. I thought, maybe he is very busy on the other list that you inherited from Htoo. Getting curious. It must be very good. Han: Thank you very much, Nina, for missing me. I also think of you and Lodewijk, and I continue praying for Lodewijk. No, I was not busy at the forum I inherited from Htoo. Only two or three members write occasionally. Whatever I write nobody asks me any questions. So it is a very quiet forum, and nothing exciting. But I am having this annoying weakness of the muscles of the whole body. I get easily tired with the slightest activity. I told a friend that I thought my end was near. His terse reply: "Yes, my dear friend, we all have to go. But don't you fix a date for that!" He was right. I cannot possibly make an appointment for my final event. Respectfully, Han #106876 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:04 am Subject: Re: Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties. . szmicio Dear Alex, thanks for explaining that. > On what basis, I pray, do people know today that "oh, we are all lowest and dullest class. There are no higher class people today. Thus don't even attempt those other practices." > > So it is a pure speculation to say that "you are dull witted (neyya/padaparama), thus follow this set of instructions in Netti". L: But distinction on different characters was made, so this can be helpful. > Commentaries written by commentators, DO NOT COUNT, as none other but the Buddha could actually know these things. Even Ven. Sariputta couldn't with absolute certainty and with clairvoyance know the capability of another person. L: You said commentaries written by commentators. I always underline this. Cause those are not commentaries as they are seen by scholars. Commentaries are holy buddhists Text made only with one purpose: to help people understand. They were made by Theras with the greatest devotion. If you take commentary to the firts book of abhidhamma you can see the words of praise on the beginning. I think if we think that commentaries are just commentaries there is no sadha for the teachings. And devotion to the teaching is very helpful. This all needs to be checked in our lifes. Remember: Theravada, what Theras said or taught. Best wishes Lukas #106877 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mana - conceit ashkenn2k Dear Lukas >L: Sometimes there is dosa, anager. But I meant the moments when I cannot be happy of anything. Good intention appears and then it's gone in instant. No happiness in it. How this can be happieness if it impermanent and not mine? > kO:? It is wonderful and great?that you understand impermanence and dukkha in?conditioned dhammas.? Not easy and I could not do that also.?? >L: Today I was reading Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. Acharn said only citta now that experience. Then I had a few moments of rest. >The mind applies to that. Characteristic of experiencing, and so much forgetfulness during the day, and so good to hear good Dhamma. > KO:? I like to explain this statement.? Only citta that experience now is about citta as chief in experiencing an object.?? Citta cannot arise on its own, the other cetasikas also partake the experience of an object.? For eg, when one is anger, it is citta that experience the object, it is dosa that partake the experience that produce the anger and not citta. If one cannot be mindful of citta, then there are other dhammas like cetasikas.? I believe there are some who could understand rupa better than mana.? As I said, it is the dhamma that matters.? Forgetfulness is because of mindfulness not being strong and not because of panna not being strong.? It is the function of mindfulness to remind of kusala, mindfulness is like the kings adviser.? Reading and considering of dhamma helps the grow of mindfulness and panna >L: I've tried to put attention to seeing and hearing. Just more ignorance. But being reminded from time to time this is so wonderful. Good Lukas, sometimes. KO:??I think we should not force ourselves.? Mindfulness?grows strong?gradually.? Panna also.? So it would take time.? Even if most of time we forget, that does not mean it is all a lost cause.? Be patient and believe me one day you will say, it is all just dhammas :-).? >Vibhajavada is such constructed that it conditions understanding after reading different vibhangas. This is never studying of the Texts like scholars do. >Buddha and Theras knew this so this is why they go with such detailed vibhangas. KO:? Keep reading and considering.? Keep listening to the clippings of AS.? No one teach present moment of cittas like she does.? Cheers Ken O #106878 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:36 am Subject: Re: mana - conceit szmicio Dear Ken O, > KO:? Keep reading and considering.? Keep listening to the clippings of AS.? No one teach present moment of cittas like she does.? L: It's true. I found myself very helpful to even hear on citta. This is the reality that experience. So now it happens. Smelling, tasting, thinking this is all citta. It has characteristic of experiencing now. No need choosing, putting attentions ;> Just being reminded citta now. It has characteristic. And no expectations. Best wishes Lukas #106879 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:33 am Subject: Magnificent is Merit! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Magnificent is Merit well done in good time! The Blessed Buddha explained DOING GOOD like this: Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good reaps only joy and satisfaction ... So both here and there the wise with merit well done enjoys the purity of his prior good actions. Dhammapada Illustration 16 Background Story 16 THE PRECIOUS POSSIBILITY Just as one can make many varied bouquets from a single big bunch of flowers, a mortal among the humans can make many kinds of merit by doing various good deeds. Dhammapada Illustration 53 Background Story 53 HONOURABLE Those who honours those worthy of honour: That is the Buddha and his disciples; Who are unhindered, sorrowless, and fearless, finders of Nibbana, their merit gained from such worthy & well directed honour cannot be estimated by anyone... Dhammapada Illustration 195-196 Background Story 195+196 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #106880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's health. nilovg Dear Han, Op 18-apr-2010, om 6:08 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But I am having this annoying weakness of the muscles of the whole > body. I get easily tired with the slightest activity. I told a > friend that I thought my end was near. His terse reply: "Yes, my > dear friend, we all have to go. But don't you fix a date for that!" > He was right. I cannot possibly make an appointment for my final > event. -------- N: I really had to laugh, sorry. Your friend is right. But we sympathize with you. It is kind of you to think of Lodewijk. He eats now with gusto, not bad at all, but does not gain the lost kilos. He has more interest now at reading, writing Emails on political issues, also playing the piano, but not for long. He gets easily tired, but I think that he successfully made a good walk with me in the dunes. He is better than just after Thailand. All the best wishes to you. By the way I learnt so much from you the way you moderated some study corners you were in charge of. I am in this position on the Pali list (my Abhidhamma series) and think of you when reacting. You had a kind word for everybody. Lodewijk thinks you are extraordinary. We are so happy we had this get together with you at Sarah and Jon's hotel. Nina. #106881 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Han's health. hantun1 Dear Nina, Once again, I am moved by your kind words. I am also very happy to know that Lodewijk is now eating with gusto, taking more interest at reading and writing, playing the piano, and walking with you in the dunes. He is very lucky to have you. I am sure he will get better and gain back the lost kilos. I am also reading your messages at Pali list, and I am proud of you for your very able management in some difficult topics. Kamma willing, I will see you and Lodewijk, and Sarah and Jon in the near future. Respectfully, Han #106882 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:00 am Subject: Semi-automated Pali translation tools ashkenn2k Dear all I get this fantastic program from Pali yahoo groups when I try to find tranlsation program for pali.? It could translate sentences in individual words better than the one in CSCD 4.? You could use it to read pali commentaries.? Not all words are translated but it is the best so far I have come across.? It really helps a lot for people like me with limited knowledge of pali. from the link of the website This is a simple and quite crude attempt of using a binary search dictionary lookup for creating some kind of automatic translation tool from Pali to English. Does not break compounds and misses any sophisticated grammatical analysis. Just uses the dictionary to lookup words and outputs them into a list as well as an inter-linear style html page > Download the program here: > > [download] (at the > bottom of the page) Cheers Ken O #106883 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's health. sarahprocter... Dear Han & Nina, --- On Sun, 18/4/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >H: But I am having this annoying weakness of the muscles of the whole > body. I get easily tired with the slightest activity. I told a > friend that I thought my end was near. His terse reply: "Yes, my > dear friend, we all have to go. But don't you fix a date for that!" > He was right. I cannot possibly make an appointment for my final > event. -------- N: I really had to laugh, sorry. Your friend is right. But we sympathize with you. ... S: Yes, it made me smile too... a good friend who speaks the truth! .... N: It is kind of you to think of Lodewijk. He eats now with gusto, not bad at all, but does not gain the lost kilos. He has more interest now at reading, writing Emails on political issues, also playing the piano, but not for long. He gets easily tired, but I think that he successfully made a good walk with me in the dunes. He is better than just after Thailand. ... S: I'm very glad to hear that Lodewijk is recovering and has his appetite back. I've been meaning to write and ask how he's getting on. I'm sure the milder weather and being able to get outdoors must help. Pls send him our best wishes... Metta Sarah ===== #106884 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's health. nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for your kind interest, Nina. Op 18-apr-2010, om 12:32 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I'm very glad to hear that Lodewijk is recovering and has his > appetite back. I've been meaning to write and ask how he's getting > on. I'm sure the milder weather and being able to get outdoors must > help. Pls send him our best wishes... #106885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 groups of sankharas nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 16-apr-2010, om 7:55 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > when speak there is vacisankhara but does kaya- and manosankhara > also present when speak? ------ N: I find the following in Buddhist Dict. Nyanatiloka: <2. The aforementioned three terms, ka-ya-, vaci-- and citta-s. are sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental- function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See nirodhasama-patti.> When you are speaking vitakka and vicara perform their functions. These three items are a specific classification. They are distinct. Nina. #106886 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:36 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Ken H ( and all interested..) you wrote: It's nice to be in agreement on a few things, but let's be clear as to what they are. As I see it, the Buddha (as a Bodhisatta) attained all eight levels of jhana, but none of them led to enlightenment. So he tried asceticism, but again without success. He then took those same eight jhanas as objects of vipassana, whereupon he did attain enlightenment. So it was the vipassana that led to enlightenment not the jhanas (or the asceticism). D: I don't understand . Jhanas (and Satipatthana i.e. the 7th and the 8th factor of the Noble Path) , are means for insight /vipassana. Are you claiming that there is no insight with Jhana states? Please read the sutta again http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html ) KH: All other arahants - with the exception of chief disciples and pacceka Buddhas - attain after taking ordinary (non-jhana) dhammas as objects of vipassana. D: ? where did you get this from ?? KH: Those are the relevant facts as I see them, and I think we still differ on them, don't we? I am not sure where the rose-apple sutta fits in. My personal theory (always to be taken with a grain of salt) about the "self-enlightenment" factor was at best a side issue. :-) D: one step forward and two steps back .. as I see it ;-) with Metta Dieter #106887 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:41 pm Subject: Re: 3 groups of sankharas szmicio Dear Nina, This still doesnt explain much. Maybe I can check this in the commentary to Vibhangapaali. And in Vibhangapaali tomorrow. Any comments to patticcasamupada you know? I have different feelings after reading about three groups of sankaras explaind as sankhara in patticasamupada, but i have to read commentaries. vaci-, kaya-, citta- sankhara those are what buddhist called performing deeds by speach, body and mind. But Buddha was so compasionate and explained this is only conditioned sankhara nothing more. This is explained in Vibhangapali, Patticasamupada section. There was punna concerned as i remember, I was going with this earlier on dsg. And dont remember now ;> This is so helpful to read detailes and be more and more with right view. This can be gradually a condition to right understanding and sati. Sorry I cannot trust to this dictionary. I see only sources are Suttas :> so this is madness to go only with Suttas :> Suttas are good reminders, and have deep meaning, but they does not explain the meaning. Best wishes Lukas > > when speak there is vacisankhara but does kaya- and manosankhara > > also present when speak? > ------ > N: I find the following in Buddhist Dict. Nyanatiloka: > > <2. The aforementioned three terms, ka-ya-, vaci-- and citta-s. are > sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily > function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal > function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental- > function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See > nirodhasama-patti.> > > When you are speaking vitakka and vicara perform their functions. > These three items are a specific classification. They are distinct. #106888 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties. . truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > thanks for explaining that. > > > On what basis, I pray, do people know today that "oh, we are all lowest and dullest class. There are no higher class people today. Thus don't even attempt those other practices." > > > > So it is a pure speculation to say that "you are dull witted (neyya/padaparama), thus follow this set of instructions in Netti". > > L: But distinction on different characters was made, so this can be >helpful. Not all distinctions are helpful or useful, and only the Buddha could make definitive and final statements, IMHO. Only the Buddha could say "you are such and such". Even the Best Arhat disciples (like Ven. Sariputta) could make big errors of misjudgement on the faculties of another person. > > Commentaries written by commentators, DO NOT COUNT, as none other >but the Buddha could actually know these things. Even Ven. Sariputta >couldn't with absolute certainty and with clairvoyance know the >capability of another person. > > L: You said commentaries written by commentators. I always >underline this. Cause those are not commentaries as they are seen by >scholars. Commentaries are holy buddhists Text made only with one >purpose: to help people understand. But unless one is the Buddha, there is always a possibility of unintended mis-interpetation or less than ideal explanation. In DN16 the Buddha made it clear, no matter what anyone (including even a large group of Theras) say - check with the suttas. >They were made by Theras with the greatest devotion. Maybe Sati the fisherman's son was also teaching his misinterpretation of Dhamma with greatest devotion. I am sure that some monks may have misinterpreted the Dhamma and taught it with conviction that they were right. Even in the Buddha's time there were many misguided monks: Devadatta, Arittha, Sati... > I think if we think that commentaries are just commentaries there >is no sadha for the teachings. There may be Saddha in those commentaries but not what the Buddha has said in DN16. Some say that it is disrespectful to question the commentaries, but I think it is disrespectful to the Buddha to ignore his instruction in DN16 and put more value to what commentators have said. ====== 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses (sutta) and verify them by the Discipline (vinaya). If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu ? or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu ? or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#t-37 The above would prevent the following future dangers: "There will be, in the course of the future, monks undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment ? will give full ordination to others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment ? will give full ordination to still others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. ...They ? being undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment ? will take on others as students and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. .... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.079.than.html =============================== With metta, Alex #106889 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm Subject: Re: Semi-automated Pali translation tools truth_aerator Thank you very much Ken. Greatly appreciated. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear all > > I get this fantastic program from Pali yahoo groups when I try to find tranlsation program for pali.? It could translate sentences in individual words better than the one in CSCD 4.? You could use it to read pali commentaries.? Not all words are translated but it is the best so far I have come across.? It really helps a lot for people like me with limited knowledge of pali. > > > from the link of the website > This is a simple and quite crude attempt of using a binary search dictionary lookup for creating some kind of automatic translation tool from Pali to English. Does not break compounds and misses any sophisticated grammatical analysis. Just uses the dictionary to lookup words and outputs them into a list as well as an inter-linear style html page > > > > Download the program here: > > > > [download] (at the > > bottom of the page) > > > > Cheers > Ken O #106890 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:17 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ----------- > D: I am pleased as well to find something in common , rather than that what is different in view. ;-) > > You may like to contemplate the issue of 'pleasant state ' further .. and I assume that following sutta will find your interest > (though it has been mentioned a couple of times recently I like to quote it in full length because it treats a couple of related issues ) ------------ Hi Dieter, I can't quite remember that sutta's being discussed recently - probably not paying enough attention! - and so I don't understand the conclusion: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.' Earlier in the sutta there is the following paragraph: ""Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words." I don't see that as applying particularly to DSG, do you? What I mean is, I don't think it applies to the way some DSG'ers refuse to accept formal samatha and vipassana practices. The people mentioned in the sutta were arguing over the classification of paramattha dhammas. So they were basically on the right track - learning about paramattha dhammas - their fault was simply in not recognizing different ways of classifying. The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) Ken H #106891 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:16 pm Subject: Re: Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties. . szmicio Dear Alex, > > L: But distinction on different characters was made, so this can be >helpful. > > Not all distinctions are helpful or useful, L: They are perfect, all of them. They may not be helpful for all people. People have different accumulations. After reading Nina's Ruupas I was disgusted by some very intelectual quotations there. I didn't like them. But this doesnt mean that they are not perfect, that they are not helpful. The problem was in me. I couldnt appreciate them for that moment. Different remiders for different moments, for different people. >A: and only the Buddha could make definitive and final statements, IMHO. Only the Buddha could say > "you are such and such". Even the Best Arhat disciples (like Ven. Sariputta) could make big errors of misjudgement on the faculties of another person. L: Buddha was really master of vibhanga. He was perfect not only in seeing others faculties or accumulations, but could see all vibhangas and how they influance people. But Arahat's with accumulations they also were very perfect and accurate. This accuracy can be checked when panna arises more and more. And greatfulness for theras that they help so much explaining Dhamma in detailed way. Long ago i was involved only in Suttas, I was confused, I had so much Self-view and then had opportunity to read in detailes and then less Self more rest ;> > > L: You said commentaries written by commentators. I always >underline this. Cause those are not commentaries as they are seen by >scholars. Commentaries are holy buddhists Text made only with one >purpose: to help people understand. > > But unless one is the Buddha, there is always a possibility of unintended mis-interpetation or less than ideal explanation. In DN16 the Buddha made it clear, no matter what anyone (including even a large group of Theras) say - check with the suttas. L: Theras which constituted commentaries they were all perfect. Of course not like Buddha was. > >They were made by Theras with the greatest devotion. > > Maybe Sati the fisherman's son was also teaching his misinterpretation of Dhamma with greatest devotion. L: He was simple guy with wrong view. This wasnt Arahat. All Arahats can see 4NT but some of them can have more accumulations. In times of Buddha disciples taught Dhamma also. Buddha praise them. He say well-said, well-said. >A: I am sure that some monks may have misinterpreted the Dhamma and >taught it with conviction that they were right. Even in the Buddha's time there were many misguided monks: Devadatta, Arittha, Sati... L: ignorance. So that's why this is so important to dont belive monks, that what they say is according to what we all think or that they looks nice and are so calm. This is all cheating dhammas. Dont belive in teachings because you are sure that Buddha said this and others are later teachings. Dont belive that, this is all cheating and Dhamma needs to be experienced. This from Kalama Sutta. > > I think if we think that commentaries are just commentaries there >is no sadha for the teachings. > > There may be Saddha in those commentaries but not what the Buddha has said in DN16. Some say that it is disrespectful to question the commentaries, but I think it is disrespectful to the Buddha to ignore his instruction in DN16 and put more value to what commentators have said. L: Suttas were explained only to show us some machinations that we can all be involved in. This is teaching only for development, not for making 'some' ideas of Dhamma. You dont find any explations in the Suttas, they are only remiders. Best wishes Lukas > ====== > 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' > > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses (sutta) and verify them by the Discipline (vinaya). If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu ? or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu ? or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#t-37 > > The above would prevent the following future dangers: > > "There will be, in the course of the future, monks undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment ? will give full ordination to others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They ? being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment ? will give full ordination to still others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. > > > ...They ? being undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment ? will take on others as students and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. .... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.079.than.html > =============================== > > > > > > > With metta, > > Alex > #106892 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:26 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ----------------- <. . .> D: > I don't understand . Jhanas (and Satipatthana i.e. the 7th and the 8th factor of the Noble Path) , are means for insight /vipassana. Are you claiming that there is no insight with Jhana states? Please read the sutta again ------------------ Yes, that is what I am claiming. It's a very common claim at DSG. Jhanas are not the way to enlightenment. The best they can lead to is a fine immaterial existence, which can continue for aeons. But that form of existence does not allow for hearing of the Dhamma, and so it is a kind of heavenly prison. I don't entirely agree with your classification of the seventh factor as 'satipatthana that is a means for insight/vipassana.' Satipatthana is essentially the same as vipassana. They are names that are given to all aspects of the path combined. The only difference is that satipatthana refers exclusively to the mundane path, while vipassana refers to both the mundane and the supramundane path. Satipatthana takes a conditioned dhamma as its object: vipassana takes either a conditioned dhamma or nibbana as its object. ----------------------------- KH: > > All other arahants - with the exception of chief disciples and pacceka Buddhas - attain after taking ordinary (non-jhana) dhammas as objects of vipassana. D: ? where did you get this from ?? ------------------------------ I don't know where exactly but it's in the Tipitaka. Anyone can use breath as an object of relaxation meditation. (I think yoga instructors would agree with that.) But only an elite few can use breath as an object of concentration (jhana) meditation. That is because breath becomes more and more difficult to detect as concentration increases. Ken H #106893 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:49 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi again Dieter, I seem to have taken a tangent in my answer to your last question. ----------------------------- > KH: > > All other arahants - with the exception of chief disciples and pacceka Buddhas - attain after taking ordinary (non-jhana) dhammas as objects of vipassana. > > D: ? where did you get this from ?? > > > I don't know where exactly but it's in the Tipitaka. Anyone can use breath as an object of relaxation meditation. (I think yoga instructors would agree with that.) But only an elite few can use breath as an object of concentration (jhana) meditation. That is because breath becomes more and more difficult to detect as concentration increases. ------------------------------ What I meant to say was that only an elite few (know in the texts as "Buddhas and Buddhas' Sons") can attain enlightenment by means of jhana and vipassana in tangent. Those elite few always take breath (the most difficult of all jhana-meditation objects) as their meditation object. Ken H #106894 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:54 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Dieter, It's not my day! :-) I meant to say "jhana and vipassana in tandem" not "jhana and vipassana in tangent." Ken H #106895 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 groups of sankharas hantun1 Dear Nina and Lukas, When Dhammadinnaa asked Visaakha about the three sa"nkhaaras she replied that kaaya sa"nkhaara means asaasa-pasaasa, vaciisa"nkhaara means vitakka vicaara, and cittasa"nkhaara means sa~n~naa vedanaa. But Mahaasi Sayaadaw explained that: [All actions done by one's own volition or cetanaa, thoughtful bent of mind, which means (kaayakamma.m), is to be deemed "kaayasa"nkhaara". The state of mind which causes good or sinful speech (vaciikamma.m), is said to be "vaciisa"nkhaara". The state of mind which causes good or unwholesome thoughts, i.e. (manokamma.m), is said to be "cittasa"nkhaara".] http://www.yellowrobe.com/images/library/books/CULAVEDALLA%20SUTTA.pdf Cu.lavedalla Sutta by Mahaasi Sayaadaw. Han: Therefore, the actual definition is much broader than what Dhammadinnaa had replied. Then why did Dhammadinnaa reply like that? Mahasi Sayaadaw explained further: [Therefore, suspicion is likely to arise as to what kind of sa"nkhaara, was referred to relating to this "question on sa"nkhaara". Nevertheless, Dhammadinnaa Therii being a female arahat equipped with the knowledge of Pa.tisambhidaa, had a notion that this question was related to sa"nkhaara which were relevant to nirodhasamaapatti referring to which interrogation would follow.] Han: According to Mahaasi Sayaadaw, Dhammadinnaa knew in advance that Visaakha would follow up with the question on nirodhasamaapatti (sa~n~naavedayita-nirodha-samaapatti), and that was why she replied the way she did. Actually the definiton of the three sankhaaras are much broader as mentioned above. Respectfully, Han #106896 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:48 am Subject: Correction: Re: [dsg] 3 groups of sankharas hantun1 Dear Nina and Lukas, There was some typo. Wrong: When Dhammadinnaa asked Visaakha about the three sa"nkhaaras she replied that kaaya sa"nkhaara means asaasa-pasaasa, vaciisa"nkhaara means vitakka vicaara, and cittasa"nkhaara means sa~n~naa vedanaa. Correct: When Visaakha asked Dhammadinnaa about the three sa"nkhaaras she replied that kaaya sa"nkhaara means asaasa-pasaasa, vaciisa"nkhaara means vitakka vicaara, and cittasa"nkhaara means sa~n~naa vedanaa. Respectfully, Han #106897 From: "Christine" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:59 am Subject: Where is Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay "A Critical Examination of ?āṇavīra Thera's ...." christine_fo... Hello all, I can no longer find Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay "A Critical Examination of ?āṇavīra Thera's "A Note on Paṭiccasamuppāda" 1998" anywhere on the internet. All previous links seem broken even in a google search. Can anyone assist? with metta Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ #106898 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:34 am Subject: Re: 3 groups of sankharas szmicio Dear friends, Here is explanation of paticcasamupada from Vibhangapaali made by Buddha himself: 225. Avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa, sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m, vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupa.m, naamaruupapaccayaa sa.laayatana.m, sa.laayatanapaccayaa phasso, phassapaccayaa vedanaa, vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaa, ta.nhaapaccayaa upaadaana.m, upaadaanapaccayaa bhavo, bhavapaccayaa jaati, jaatipaccayaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. =============================== <226. Tattha katamaa avijjaa? Dukkhe a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhasamudaye a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhanirodhe a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya a~n~naa.na.m – aya.m vuccati ‘‘avijjaa’’.> Therein what is ignorance? Absence of knowledge of suffering, absence of knowladge of the cause of suffering, absence of knowladge of the cessation of suffering, absence of knowladge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance. Therein what is 'because of ignorance activities arise'? Activity producing good(resultant), activity producing bad(resultant), activity producing unshakeable (resultant), bodily activity, verbal activity, mental activity. Therein what is 'activity producing good (resultant)'? Good volition characteristic of the plane of desire, characteristic of the plane of form, occassioned by giving, occassioned by morality, occassioned by meditation. This is called activity producing good(resultant). Therein what is activity producing bad (resultant)? bad volition characteristic of the plane of desire. This is called activity producing bad (resultant). Therein what is activity producing unshakeable (resultant)? Good volition characteristic of the formless plane . This is called activity producing unshakeable(resultant). Therein what is bodily activity? Bodily volition is bodily activity; verbal volition is verbal activity; mental volition is mental activity. These are called 'becase of ignorance activities arise' Best wishes Lukas #106899 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where is Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay "A Critical Examination of ?āṇavīra Thera's ...." sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- On Mon, 19/4/10, Christine wrote: >I can no longer find Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay "A Critical Examination of ?āṇ avīra Thera's "A Note on Paṭiccasamupp āda" 1998" anywhere on the internet. All previous links seem broken even in a google search. >Can anyone assist? ... S: Yes, I think we can. If you go to the DSG files it's still there. I just opened it and it seems fine. Any points in particular? Metta Sarah ======= #106900 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Hi Robin, --- On Mon, 12/4/10, Rob wrote: >I neither agree nor didagree. >Manas too? Have you read the late ven, Walpola Rahula's essay that discusses this? My view is that these are near synonyms; but there are shades of meanings. .... S: Yes, I have read the essay. Pls read my discussion of it in the following post and the links within it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19473 ... >Vinnana = The discriminative consciousness that 'knows' sensory input -- sights, sounds, aromas, flavors, textures, and compounded phenomena. >Manas = Different from mano-vinnana. The discriminative consciousness that deals with abstract or intangible concepts and noumena >Citta - accumulated consciousness in general. The same as alaya, sort of. Can be compounded, stained with adventitious defilements -- alaya; or not -- vimala or amala. >This is just my take right now. I am not excessively attached to it. .... S: Glad to hear you're not too attached to it:-)) Perhaps you'd read my earlier messages first and then we can discuss further, if you like. From Vism X1V, 82: " 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why 'consciousness' is said (M i 292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning." Metta Sarah ======== #106901 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Kevin & all), --- On Mon, 12/4/10, truth_aerator wrote: > > As for CMA, I think it implies that if one is reborn triple-rooted, then one can attain the paths/fruits and the jhanas. > ... >> S: Or it implies that unless one is reborn triple-rooted, there is >no chance at all of attaining the paths/fruits and the jhanas in >that life!! A:> Right. However it also seems that such a person would not have much interest in Dhamma in order to work hard at developing morality, restraint, understanding, etc. ... S: I agree, but what is heard may be a condition for later understanding. We can't know, we can only speculate. ... >>S: I'm also thinking of the sutta in AN (Alex, perhaps you can help >quote it for me) which lists the 5(?) signs of the decline of the >Teachings, one of which being the decline in the Jhana attainments. >Elsewhere it's quoted without reference to the Jhana attainments but >with something else in place. Sorry, a bit rushed to look up texts >now. A:> One of the suttas is SN16.13 ""The true Dhamma does not disappear all at once in the way a sink ships. There are, Kassapa, five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the training; they dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration. These, Kassapa, are the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma." BB translation SN16.13 The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma .... S: Many thanks, Alex, for finding this reference and the other excellent ones you gave. You really have all the sutta refs at your finger-tips! We can see the evidence of the decline of the Teachings. Metta Sarah ======== #106902 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:45 am Subject: Re: The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma szmicio Dear Sarah > S: I agree, but what is heard may be a condition for later understanding. We can't know, we can only speculate. L: This seems true. Case development of right understanding seems to be very graduall and reading considering, this will bring fruits later on. Best wishes Lukas #106903 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:47 am Subject: Kusala development by sutta remiders szmicio Dear friends, This seems that we have to do this and that. But suttas are exelant reminders themselfes. After reading short Sutta, there can be development itself. Best wishes Lukas #106904 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:15 pm Subject: Pure Peace @ Rest ... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the characteristics of the State called Nibbâna? Total ease, complete calm, absolute stillness, safe freedom, perfect happiness & pure peace… Absence of any uncertainty, any doubt, any confusion, any delusion & all ignorance… Presence of confidence, cleared certainty, understanding all, and direct experience… Absence of any greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, hunger, temptation and pull… Presence of imperturbable indifference, serene composure & all stilled equanimity… Absence of any hate, anger, aversion, hostility, irritation, & stubborn rigidity… Presence of universal goodwill, infinite friendliness, all-embracing & boundless kindness… Not a place, not an idea, not a fantasy, not a deception, not a conceit, not a conception… Not a cause, not an effect, not finite, not definable, not formed, not changing, but eternal… Unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncreated, uncaused, unconditioned & unconstructed, yet real… Void of eye, visible objects & visual consciousness, void of ear, sounds & auditory consciousness, Void of nose, smells & olfactory consciousness, void of tongue, tastes & gustatory consciousness, Void of body, touch & tactile consciousness and void of mind, thoughts & mental consciousness… Pure Peace @ Rest … The Blessed Buddha once said: Hard it is to see the unconstructed, the undistorted! This independent state is not easily realized. Craving is all cut for the One, who so knows, since he sees, that there is nothing to cling to ... !!! … Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 2 In any dependence there is bound to be instability. In Independence there cannot be any instability. When there is no liable instability, no feeble wavering, there is a quiet calm, stillness, serenity & peace. When there is such solid tranquillity, then there is no tendency to drift, no attraction, neither mental push nor pull, nor any strain of appeal or repulsion. When there is no attraction, no drift, no bending, then there is no movement, no development, and neither any coming nor any going. Neither any starting nor any ending... When there is neither any coming nor any going, then there is neither any ceasing nor any reappearing... There being neither ceasing nor reappearing, then there is neither any here, there, beyond, nor in between... This – just this – is the End of Suffering. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 4 Having understood this unconstructed state, released in mind, with the chain to becoming eliminated, they attain to the sublime essence of all states. Delighting in the calmed end of craving, those steady Noble Ones have left all being & becoming behind. Itivuttaka: Thus spoken 38 Nibbana is The Highest Bliss! One, who so knows, sees, that there is nothing to cling to ... !!! … Have a nice released, relaxed & peaceful day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri #106905 From: "colette" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:32 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ksheri3 Hi Ken H, That was short lived, wasn't it? I mean when I read the enjoyment you must've been feeling to say that it was/is "nice to be in agreement...". That's Nina's territory, however, so I won't bother i.e. "transience", citta, etc.. I will bother with: "He then took those same eight jhanas as objects of vipassana, whereupon he did attain enlightenment. So it was the vipassana that led to enlightenment not the jhanas (or the asceticism). " What you are saying is that: * eight jhanas can be "external" and are "observable" I luv this part, so in some aspect, THEN, the eight jhanas are no longer Nama but are Rupa. Hmmmmm, sounds as if you're getting a bit ahead of yourself here so lets try to reduce the next sentence in the "ZERO SUM GAME" of life so that we can ignore it and thus focus our attention on this monumental leap from noumena to phenomena or Nama to Rupa. "So it was the vipassana that led to enlightenment not the jhanas (or the asceticism). " Ah, I enjoy somebody that's got something up their sleeve when playing cards, or gambling. My understanding of vipassana is that vipassana is a METHODOLOGY or a term used to describe a condition of consciousness at a particular point in time during a METHODOLOGY, practice, procedure, process. Your suggestion is that "vipassana" is a catalyst, a CAUSAL CONDITION which must first be achieved before ENLIGHTENMENT CAN OCCUR. That's a gamble! Taking chances here, aren't you? I mean that it's fine to take the position that Vipassana is an ACTUALITY which resembles a RUPA rather than a NAMA. But this is similar to the problems I'm running into with some Western esoteric practitioners who are showing signs of the slave mentality through the CREATIONIST heirarchy and structure that they cling to. <...> We do have this exact same occurance happening in the practices of the Theravadan and the Mahayanian. Here we get into the difference(s) of BUDDHA NATURE AND THE ALAYA-VIJNANA. Like the Southern Baptist the Theravadan requires a strict process that relies entirely on a "go-between", a middle man. While many esoteric Buddhist practices show the ease and practicality of achieving ENLIGHTENMENT in a single life, it is an arduous process fraught with unlimited illusions and deterents. Theravada requires an unlimited amount of "lives" be experienced before ENLIGHTENMENT can be achieved; if your gamble, Ken H., is correct, THEN, you are negating any and all philosophical practices that exist in the Mahayana repetroire, cannon i.e. dzogchen. <....>In your case it would be the necessity of Vipassana to "use" the EIGHT JHANAS as a tool to achieve ENLIGHTENMENT. GREAT GAD ZOOKS! Hold it. In the Hermetic Corpus I just had a flash of the KABBALION. My my myyyyyyy. It seems I may need to go digging and find the plastic bag that has the files on the Hermetic Corpus before I leave this consciousness! Interesting what may be happening. pardon me. toodles, colette #106906 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Mon, 12/4/10, Ken O wrote: >>S: "One who understands has faith..." So who is the one who understands? > >A few lines above in this same section you quoted from, para 127: > >"To the extent of the meaning of suffering in suffering it is known, there is no meaning of suffering unknown, he is thus the All-seer. All-seeing-ness is the understanding faculty. **Through the understanding faculty there is the faith faculty** in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty in the sense of establishing, and the concentration faculty in the sense of non-distraction. " > >In the suttas, who do we read is the one who has unwavering confidence in the Triple Gem? Only the ariyan disciples. Saddha develops with panna, not before it. >KO:? You are right the text pointed to All Seer who is the Buddha.??that part I am wrong.?? I am not refering to the unwavering confidence of the triple Gem because that is sotapanna.? .... S: The point was not that it was referring to the Buddha, but that saddha develops through understanding. Without understanding, no development. So, as you often point out, we need to refer to the texts, but we have to read and consider carefully, otherwise it's useless. Again, let's stress, that this was your selected text for reference:-)) .... ?MN 70 (Kitagiri Sutta) < ... >KO:? I am refering to this faith and not the unwavering faith in the sotapanna.?? ... S: Again, who has faith? Without any understanding, is there any faith in the value of listening to the Buddha? "One who understands has faith..." ... >To say faith develop with panna that is also possible but not necessary?always with?panna, faith can condition panna in the next series of?mind door?to arise just like sati also can condition that.? ??? .... S: Saddha and sati cetasikas arise with all kusala cittas, but they only develop with panna. Without panna (of any kind), how is it possible to even know what saddha is or what kusala of any kind is? So the stress should be on panna conditioning the development of saddha and sati, not the other way round. Metta Sarah ====== #106907 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:59 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Colette, ------------- C: > That was short lived, wasn't it? I mean when I read the enjoyment you must've been feeling to say that it was/is "nice to be in agreement...". -------------- It seems to me that, in Dhamma study, people can agree on all the important points, or on none of them. But they can't agree on some and disagree on others. On the less important points, however, there can be still be some agreement. And that's always nice. :-) ------------------------- C: > That's Nina's territory, however, so I won't bother i.e. "transience", citta, etc.. I will bother with: "He then took those same eight jhanas as objects of vipassana, whereupon he did attain enlightenment. So it was the vipassana that led to enlightenment not the jhanas (or the asceticism). " What you are saying is that: * eight jhanas can be "external" and are "observable" --------------------------- Yes, all consciousness is potentially observable. At a moment when it has just ceased to exist it can be observed by a following, existent, consciousness. With jhana consciousness, however, the process is not so straightforward. As I understand it, jhana is a state of deep absorption that is very hard to snap out of. Only someone who was both a jhana master and a vipassana master could switch to vipassana consciousness quickly enough to catch a just-fallen-away jhana consciousness. ----------- . . . C: > My understanding of vipassana is that vipassana is a METHODOLOGY or a term used to describe a condition of consciousness at a particular point in time during a METHODOLOGY, practice, procedure, process. ------------ I think most Buddhists would agree with you on that, but some of us wouldn't. It is one of those important points on which our entire understandings hinge. Some see vipassana as a method, some see it as a single moment of right understanding. And never the twain shall meet! But we can still agree on minor points. :-) Ken H #106908 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Alex), --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Ken O wrote: >KO:? In most suttas, Clear Comprehension is usually before one enters jhana, wheras in anapasati, satipathana, it is after one attain jhanas.? Whether it is before or after, clear comprehension is about panna. ... S: Are you suggesting that "sampaja~n~naa, i.e. pa~n~naa, isn't necessary for the development of samatha or attainment of jhanas? I can't understand your comment. As Alex said, "Of course Jhana requires, wisdom, mindfulness, ethics and so on." All the same, I appreciate all the good quotes you included (#106706 and in other messages). Metta Sarah ======= #106909 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Ven Silananda), >The practise for taking up a samatha object is after one has accomplished virtue and mindfullness and clear comphrension.? ... S: Shall we start at the beginning? Is there the "taking up of a samatha object" now as we discuss the Dhamma? What "takes up" the object? Are virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension "accomplished", or just beginning to develop? Can the Dhamma being an object of samatha development now? Can metta be the object of samatha development now, whilst we're friendly to others here? Is any selection involved at all or not? ... >The sutta and Visud, is clear on this aspect.? Also there is another aspect which is?seclusion, that is the environment is free from noise and people.... .... S: Now as samatha begins to develop or when? By choice or by conditions? Metta Sarah ======== #106910 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >.... >S: The point was not that it was referring to the Buddha, but that saddha develops through understanding. Without understanding, no development. So, as you often point out, we need to refer to the texts, but we have to read and consider carefully, otherwise it's useless. Again, let's stress, that this was your selected text for reference:-) ) KO:? Now I am saying that faith can condition understanding which leads to development.? So it is not just panna conditon development, there are other ways to condition panna that develops?and not just panna alone.? >... >S: Again, who has faith? Without any understanding, is there any faith in the value of listening to the Buddha? >"One who understands has faith..." >... >>To say faith develop with panna that is also possible but not necessary?always with?panna, faith can condition panna in the next series of?mind door?to arise just like sati also can condition that.? ??? >.... >S: Saddha and sati cetasikas arise with all kusala cittas, but they only develop with panna. Without panna (of any kind), how is it possible to even know what saddha is or what kusala of any kind is? > >So the stress should be on panna conditioning the development of saddha and sati, not the other way round. KO:? When panna arise with saddha, panna could be the main faculty and not faith.? So it depends which faculty that is most prominent at the moment of arising.? Just like in craving that arise in cittas, it is craving as the main and not moha.? We must not just attribute everything to panna, the distinction of each dhamma must be know and their interactions and conditioning. Faith can?arise?without panna.? Faith can arise with accumulations, that is why when some look at Buddha is full of respect while some dont even give Buddha a second look. Without faith, there is not even to lend a ear, that is the meaning. Kind regards Ken O #106911 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anger. How to stop / with .Metta-Karuna / sarahprocter... Dear Robin (& Lukas & Alex), --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Rob wrote: robin: > > My understanding: > > Metta: Loving Kindness, basic good will. The far opposites of this would enmity {vyapada}, dosa {hatred}, patigha {anger}, kupito {hesitance, revolt}, and so on. Kama {lust} would be a near opposite. > > L: Yes but what is metta? this is adosa, non-hatred or metta is loving-kindness? How many aspects metta has? >> Just adosa is always metta? ... S: Metta is always adosa, but adosa arises with every kusala citta, even when beings are not the object. In such cases, no metta. ... >robin writes: Not really, I do not think so. Adosa could also be apathy; neither metta {empathy} nor dosa {antipathy}. ... S: Adosa is always a sobhana (beautiful) cetasika, never an unwholesome one, which apathy suggests. ... >> L: I think karuna can be also compassion for not understanding of 4NT. But nowhere i can find such explanation. ... S: The Buddha had the greatest compassion because of his great wisdom and seeing the harm of not understanding the 4NT. (Perhaps Alex will provide the sutta quotes!) .... >robin writes: If we understand that such ignorance causes others to be bound, and therefore they must experience dukkha, and we feel empathy with that, as if their dukkha is also our dukkha, then I think we have experienced karuna. We feel their pain, we shed real tears for them. Maybe like a parent feels for a lost child. ... S: When "we feel their pain, we shed real tears for them", isn't this dosa (aversion) with unpleasant feeling? As soon as there's the slightest unpleasant feeling, we can be sure it's not karuna (compassion). ... >One thing, I have been told that cultivating karuna might arouse very intense emotions of sorrow. .... S: Impossible! Karuna can only arise with pleasant or neutral feeling. The beautiful (sobhana) cetasikas which only arise with wholesome roots can never arise with sorrow or unpleasant feeling. ... >I think Karuna is bittersweet sorrow; not bitter. That is my understanding, fwiw. .... S: Just sweet, very sweet. That is my understanding, fwiw:-) ... >" ... karuna is actually our ability to relate to another in so intense a measure that the plight of the other affects us as much as if it had been our own. ... The root meaning of karuna is said to be the anguished cry of deep sorrow and understanding that can only come from an unblemished sense of oneness with others." -- Nitin Kumar ... S: This is not karuna as taught by the Buddha. Did the Buddha have any "anguished cry of deep sorrow"? I don't think so! Metta Sarah ========= #106912 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Hi Robin, Your comments and quote given by B.Bodhi are interesting, but there's little I agree with and little which I think is supported by the texts. For example, the khanika samadhi, momentary concentration, arises now with every single citta. Its object is exactly the same as the citta's and the other co-arising cetasikas. At a moment of seeing now, there is khanika samadhi arising. It's not a matter of developing it, directing mindfulness or noting anything. When there are attempts to direct anything, I believe it is wrong concentration that is being developed. The Buddha taught a wrong path as well as a right path. We need to consider what the difference is. Right and wrong concentration can both be accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling, for example. I'm happy to discuss in more detail if you'd care to. Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Rob wrote: >I might have a little different take on these right now. >Parikamma samadhi: Preliminary Concentration. >Upachara Samadhi: Neighborhood / Access Concentration. >Appana Samadhi: Fixed concentration, sustained on one object to the exclusion of others, with no sensory contact. >Khanika Samadhi: Equal in depth to Appana; but flowing from object to object, without fixing on any one; with contact but without attachment. A fluid, supple concentration. >I have seen Khanika Samadhi conflated with Parikamma samadhi. However, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: "The kinds of concentration discussed so far arise by fixing the mind upon a single object to the exclusion of other objects. But apart from these there is another kind of concentration which does not depend upon restricting the range of awareness. This is called "momentary concentration" (khanika-samadhi) . To develop momentary concentration the meditator does not deliberately attempt to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from his field of attention. Instead, he simply directs mindfulness to the changing states of mind and body, noting any phenomenon that presents itself; the task is to maintain a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As he goes on with his noting, concentration becomes stronger moment after moment until it becomes established one-pointedly ... This fluid, mobile concentration is developed by the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness, taken up along the path of insight; when sufficiently strong it issues in the breakthrough to the last stage of the path, the arising of wisdom." more: "The Noble Eightfold Path: The Way to the End of Suffering", by Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ bodhi/waytoend. html#ch7 #106913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3 groups of sankharas nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-apr-2010, om 6:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa, sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m ------- N: Here in your quote of the D.O. there is another meaning of sa"nkhaara: also called abhisa"nkhaara: akusala kamma, kusala kamma, imperturbable kamma(aruupajhaana). This is different from what you formerly referred to: kaya, vacii, citta. ------- Nina. #106914 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:02 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Robert K & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Perhaps we can look from another perspective. In the suttas there are examples of extreme types of silabattaparamasa ? dog duty ascetics; or niganthas who stand in one place for very long periods enduring `equanimosly' thinking that by this they are somehow using up their past kamma; or even the Bodhisatta who fasted thinking this was the way . ... S: The last example is an interesting one and I also used to think it was a good example of silabattaparamasa. However, we had a long discussion about it in India with K.Sujin and the conclusion was that it wasn't necessarily an example of silabattaparamasa or of wrong view. KS definitely didn't think so, but an example of strong/unbalanced (kusala) viriya. As I say, I think it's an interesting example of how little can be judged from the outer appearance. Metta Sarah ====== #106915 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Philip (and Connie), > I like your mail, appreciating. I tell Lodewijk. Recently he said: > why have I read all these perfections, nobody will listen to them. .... S: Phil wrote many kind comments which I agreed with and he's correct when he says that we don't know when our good efforts will be appreciated later. I'd like to add what K.Sujin would say in response as well, however. I know that you've often been concerned in the past about who will read your materials and now Lodewijk is concerned about his reading. K.Sujin's comment is always that it's only the present citta that matters. When we're worried about who will read our books or appreciate our work, what kind of citta is that? She never minds how many or few people listen to her or read her books at all. When I told her once that now a lot of people read her books on the internet, she was completely unmoved by it. I once even asked her whether she was at all concerned about what would happen to the Foundation after she passes away, her response was "not in the slightest". She said that after passing away, there'd be no care about it anyway! So, as you and Lodewijk know well, it's the kusala cittas that count, whether preparing a book, an audio or at any other times. We learn to make our offerings without expectations or attachment to the gifts or the results. This way, we're not troubled or concerned about the results, but just do our best to help others. Metta Sarah ===== #106916 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:15 am Subject: Re: Conventional truth is truth too. sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Is there any passage in canonical Abhidhamma that totally denies the validity of any kind of existence of people? If so, how can a book like Puggalapannati describe the difference between people, that you KenH, say do not exist at all? ... S: I'd like to requote from a couple of my past posts on the Puggalapannatti: From #76595: >S: The following is from the introduction by Bimala Charan Law to his translation of the Puggala Pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma text. I think it's relevant: "The title consists of two words: puggala and pa~n~natti. The word 'puggala' means an individual or a person, as opposed to a multitude or class, a creature, a being, a man (Childer's Paali Dictionary). Buddhism distinguishes altogether twelve classes of intelligent beings or puggala -viz., four of the average ordinary class (puthujjanaa) and eight of the elect class (ariyaa). "According to the Buddhists, the individual has no real existence. The term 'puggala' does not mean anything real. It is only sammutisacca (apparent truth) as opposed to paramatthasacca (real truth). 'Just as it is by the condition precedent of the co-existence of its various parts that the word 'chariot' is used, just so is it that when the khandhas are there, we talk of a 'being' ' (The Questions of King Milinda, S.B.E., vol xxxv., p, 45, quoting Samyutta I, 135). "A Puggalavaadin's view is that the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact, but he is not known in the same way as other real and ultimate facts are known.['Points of Controversy, pp 8-9.] ....." "Pa~n~natti means 'notion,' 'designation,' etc. 'It means what the mind both conceives and renders articulate.' ['Expositor', vol ii, p.499, n.3] It is stated in the 'Compendium of Philosophy'[p.4] that Pa~n~natti is twofold according as it is known (pa~n~naapiyatiiti) or as it makes (things) known (pa~n~naapetiiti)....... " 'In the highest sense we do not find these distinctions to exist, but nevertheless as modes of shadowing forth the meaning (of things), they become objects of thought-genesis (as our ideas). And the idea is referred to, derived from, or determined by, this or that (thing), and is called idea of thing because it is conceived and reckoned, named, currently expressed, or made known. The idea of thing is designated 'atthapa~n~natti' because it is made known (by term, word, or sign),' "[Compendium of Philosophy, i.e. 'Kathavatthu', p.199]. "...Hence, according to the commentarial tradition, puggalapa~n~natti means 'pointing out,' 'showing,' 'exposition,' 'establishing,' and deposition of persons; or it may also mean 'notion' or 'designation' of types of persons." ..... S: We can then read the entire text of 'Puggala-pa~n~nati' with a)an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or b) with an understanding, like the Puggalavaadins, that in each example, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact.....'.< [end old post] Metta, Sarah ======= #106917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 19-apr-2010, om 9:56 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > So, as you and Lodewijk know well, it's the kusala cittas that > count, whether preparing a book, an audio or at any other times. We > learn to make our offerings without expectations or attachment to > the gifts or the results. This way, we're not troubled or concerned > about the results, but just do our best to help others. ------- N: Good you mention this. I sent it to Lodewijk. You know our trouble with my sister. I thought of this while phoning her, thinking of a similar advice by Kh Sujin. We have a good intention, but we cannot help it if others do not appreciate it. Well, everything was fine, no trouble at all. I prepared a very good vegetarian luncheon that was appreciated. We never know the outcome. ------- Nina. #106918 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >S: Shall we start at the beginning? > >Is there the "taking up of a samatha object" now as we discuss the Dhamma? > >What "takes up" the object? > >Are virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension "accomplished" , or just beginning to develop? > >Can the Dhamma being an object of samatha development now? Can metta be the object of samatha development now, whilst we're friendly to others here? > >Is any selection involved at all or not? >S: Now as samatha begins to develop or when? By choice or by conditions? KO:? why cant dhamma being an object of samatha now??? There always be sati arising with kusala likewise?with friendliness.? But?if mindfulness is not?aware of friendliness, ?there is no laying hold of sati, it is only just friendlines as the main dhamma that arise.?? In samatha, sati must be main dhamma.? This is the?difference in being friendly and?being mindful about friendliness.? Everyone can be friendly, but not everyone can be mindful of it.? So when you said good morning, are you aware of the friendliness or just the?expression of friendliness. KO:? Yes there could be selection and choice, do you select or choose your teacher?? so the question should be what selects, what choose and not whether there is a choice or not.? KO:? Also the understanding of conditions is also not correct.? Condition?is?describing that dhamma arise due to cause and conditions, it is display of the functions of conditon dhamma which are not self.??But importantly, it does not prevent dhammas from performing its distinct function,? ?Condition does not mean dhamma dont act, dont choose, dont strive.? It is just describing the nature of conditioned dhammas, the anatta?charactersitics of dhamma,?and not as a prevention to act, because act is also not self.? So?what conditon panna, it is the choice taken to listen to a respectable teacher, reading the text, discussing?and considering the meaning.? These are the acts that condition panna, but what acts, dhamma that acts (cetana).? If you dont act in this way, pse enlighten me how you listen and read books?? By panna alone ;-)?? By conditions, you mean conditions can automatically make you have more panna without listening?? Cheers Kind regards Ken O #106919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 groups of sankharas nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much. Different interpretations are possible. Interesting what Ledi Sayadaw is saying. Nina. Op 19-apr-2010, om 3:06 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But Mahaasi Sayaadaw explained that: > > [All actions done by one's own volition or cetanaa, thoughtful bent > of mind, which means (kaayakamma.m), is to be deemed > "kaayasa"nkhaara". The state of mind which causes good or sinful > speech (vaciikamma.m), is said to be "vaciisa"nkhaara". The state > of mind which causes good or unwholesome thoughts, i.e. > (manokamma.m), is said to be "cittasa"nkhaara".] #106920 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:22 am Subject: Re: Conventional truth is truth too. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, contd > A:Is there any passage in canonical Abhidhamma that totally denies the validity of any kind of existence of people? If so, how can a book like Puggalapannati describe the difference between people, that you KenH, say do not exist at all? .... S: From #76748 >S: First, let me quote a little more from Bimala Charan Law's translation of the Puggala-Pa~n~natti: "According to the Puggala-Pa~n~natti Commentary, pa~n~natti means 'explanation,' 'preaching,' 'pointing out,' 'establishing,' 'showing,' and 'exposition.' There are, it says, six pa~n~nattis. These amount to so many a) designations, b)indications, c) expositions, d) affirmations, e) depositions. [pa~n~naapanaa, dassanaa, pakaasanaa,.thapanaa, nikkhipanaa.] "All these are the meanings of pa~n~natti. Under pa~n~natti we have the designations, 'name' of groups, of spheres, or loci, or elements, or irreducible residua, of truths and of faculties or controlling powers. The commentator gives a further classification of pa~n~nattis. "There are those which point out the existing object or thing, those which point out the non-existing object or thing, which point out the non-existing by the existing, which point out the existing by the non-existing, which point out the existing by the existing, and which point out the non-exisiting by the non-existing. [Cf Compendium of Philosophy, p.200.] "Of these the first three are found in this treatise: the first, in dealing with khandhas, etc.; the second, in dealing with persons; and the third in dealing, e.g. with 'threefold lore' or the 'six super-knowledges.' Hence, according to the commentarial tradition, puggalapa~n~natti means 'pointing out,' 'showing,' 'exposition,' 'establishing,' and deposition of persons; or it may also mean 'notion' or 'designation' of types of persons. "At the outset, the author classifies the 'pa~n~natti,' or notion into group (khandha), locus (aayatana), element (dhaatu), truth (sacca), faculty (indriya), and person (puggala). Of these six, the last one is the subject-matter of this work. In the treatment of the subject, the author first gives a Table of Contents of the whole work, and then follows the method of the Anguttara Nikaaya...." .... S: After summarising the various paramattha dhammas by way of khandhas and so on, given in detail in the other Abhdidhamma texts, here the different accumulations, the different combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, designated as 'puggala' are elaborated on according to the AN methodology. With an understanding of Abhidhamma, just as when we read the suttas, we appreciate that all the references to person/puggala are for convenience. Answer "a) an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas." is the only way to read the texts with right view. The alternative b) I gave, taking the people for realties of some kind, is to follow the wrong views of the Puggalavadins as shown up in the Kathavatthu. So we see the text (Puggala-Pa~n~natti) introduces 'puggala pa~n~natti' with: "In what ways is there a designation of human types? 1- Grouping of Human Types by One. "(1) One who is emancipated in season (samayavimutto) (2) One who is emancipated out of season (asamayavimutto) (3) One of perturbable nature.(kuppadhammo) (4) One of imperturbably nature.(akuppadhammo) (5) One liable to fall away (gotrabhuu).....etc etc. So, in reality, are these people or cittas? I'd suggest (with the help of the notes)these refer to: (1) The path cittas of the sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami, i.e to sotapatti-magga citta and so on. (2) The path cittas of the sukkhavipassaka-khii.naasavas (Arahants who do not practise Jhaana - comy) (3) The cittas of the putthujana,sotapanna and sakadagami having attained the 8 samaapattis (absorptions/jhanas) (4) The cittas of the anagami or arahant having attained the 8 samaapatis. (5) The citta which is succeeded by the ariyan magga citta, referring here, 'According to the Commentary....to a person who has reached the family, circle, or designation of Ariyas....'. Again, this is referring in an absolute sense to a series of cittas only. In other words, all sammuti sacca using various pa~n~natti, but always to designate and point again to absolute realities. I hope this helps a little.< [end earlier post] Metta, Sarah ========= #106921 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:29 am Subject: Re: Conventional truth is truth too. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, A great quote. Conventional truth is convention truth, never absolute truth: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > The commentary states: > Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-katha, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-katha. > > One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-katha. > > One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-katha. > > To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-katha ,the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-katha, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-katha. > > There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-katha. It is by taking into > consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf > =========================================================== > Different strokes for different folks. ... S: Yes, different explanations for different people - but just one set of Noble Truths, just 5 khandhas of grasping. Metta Sarah ======== #106922 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Briefly... --- On Mon, 19/4/10, Ken O wrote: >S: Shall we start at the beginning? > >Is there the "taking up of a samatha object" now as we discuss the Dhamma? > >What "takes up" the object? > >Are virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension "accomplished" , or just beginning to develop? > >Can the Dhamma being an object of samatha development now? Can metta be the object of samatha development now, whilst we're friendly to others here? > >Is any selection involved at all or not? >S: Now as samatha begins to develop or when? By choice or by conditions? ... >KO: why cant dhamma being an object of samatha now? ... S: It can be! That's the point. No need to look for a special object, no need to wait until virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension are 'accomplished'. If there is any special selection at all or desire or intention to have it arise, or thought of special conditions first, it's not samatha, let alone samatha bhavana. Here's a quote (I gave before in #52659) you may find helpful on bhavana (mental development/meditation). No rules mentioned! ... >The Expositor (Pali: Atthasaalinii, comy to the Dhammasa'nganii) gives a detailed elaboration on the meaning of bhavana as used in the Dhammasa'nganii (first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka), under 'Fourfold Jhana', ch 1. Here’s the relevant extract. [I've inserted some of the Pali terms back into the translation for clarity]: ***** " 'Develops'(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Elsewhere the meaning is different according to the preposition, as sambhaavanaa, paribhaavanaa, vibhaavanaa. Of these, sambhaavanaa means religious confidence, thus: 'In my Order, Udaayi, my disciples believe in the higher eithics (adhisiile), knowing that the recluse Gotama is virtuous (siilavaa) and is endowed with the higher ethics.' (MN ii 9). 'Concentration perfected by virtue is of much fruit(siilaparibhaavito samaadhimahapphalo), of great advantage(mahaanisa.mso); understanding perfected by concentration is of much fruit (samaadhiparibhaavitaa pa~n~naa mahapphalaa), of great advantage; the mind perfected by understanding (pa~n~naaparibhaavita.m citta.m) is well freed from the Intoxicants (sammadeva aasavehi vimuccatii)' (DN ii 81) – here paribhaavanaa means perfecting. Vibhaavanaa means disappearance in: 'cause matter (ruupa.m), cause feeling (vedana.m), perception (sa~n~na.m), activities (sa'nkhaare), consciousness(vi~n~naa.na.m) to disappear (vibhaavehi).' Again bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing (uppaadanava.d.dhana.t.thena), eg:-'Udaayi, I have preached to the disciples the practice (pa.tipadaa) according to which they develop (bhaaventii) the four applications in mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaane)' (MN ii 11). And such is its meaning here also. Hence it has been said that bhaaveti means to beget (janeti), produce (uppaadeti), increase (va.d.dhetii)." .... Metta Sarah ====== #106923 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: It can be! That's the point. No need to look for a special object, no need to wait until virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension are 'accomplished' . If there is any special selection at all or desire or intention to have it arise, or thought of special conditions first, it's not samatha, let alone samatha bhavana. KO: No want ask anyone to wait, we are saying these are the conditions, the prequisites. Just like developing vipassana, there must be listening and considering of dhamma. If everyone could do it now, that would be most wonderful. Since we are all worldings do that mean we stop doing everything now and doing the now as suggested by you. It is possible for the now if there is no mindfulness that arise. So it is a gradual training, training in virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension. If we could do it now, we really dont it these at all? Right? cheers :-). Does that mean Buddha must be wasting his breath telling us so much about gradual development :-). > >Here's a quote (I gave before in #52659) you may find helpful on bhavana (mental development/ meditation) . No rules mentioned! >... >>The Expositor (Pali: Atthasaalinii, comy to the Dhammasa'nganii) gives a >detailed elaboration on the meaning of bhavana as used in the Dhammasa'nganii (first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka), under 'Fourfold Jhana', ch 1. > >Here’s the relevant extract. [I've inserted some of the Pali terms back into the translation for clarity]: >***** >" 'Develops'(bhaaveti i) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Elsewhere the meaning is different according to the preposition, as sambhaavanaa, paribhaavanaa, vibhaavanaa. >Of these, sambhaavanaa means religious confidence, thus: 'In my Order, Udaayi, my disciples believe in the higher eithics (adhisiile), knowing that the recluse Gotama is virtuous (siilavaa) and is endowed with the higher ethics.' (MN ii 9). > >'Concentration perfected by virtue is of much fruit(siilaparibhaa vito samaadhimahapphalo) , of great advantage(mahaanisa .mso); understanding perfected by concentration is of much fruit (samaadhiparibhaavi taa pa~n~naa mahapphalaa) , of great advantage; the mind perfected by understanding (pa~n~naaparibhaavi ta.m citta.m) is well freed from the Intoxicants (sammadeva aasavehi vimuccatii)' (DN ii 81) – here paribhaavanaa means perfecting. > >Vibhaavanaa means disappearance in: 'cause matter (ruupa.m), cause feeling (vedana.m), perception (sa~n~na.m), activities (sa'nkhaare) , consciousness( vi~n~naa. na.m) to disappear (vibhaavehi) .' > >Again bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing (uppaadanava. d.dhana.t. thena), eg:-'Udaayi, I have preached to the disciples the practice (pa.tipadaa) according to which they develop (bhaaventii) the four applications in mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaane) ' (MN ii 11). And such is its meaning here also. > >Hence it has been said that bhaaveti means to beget (janeti), produce >(uppaadeti), increase (va.d.dhetii) ." >.... KO: thanks, this supported samatha bhavana, in order to increase and produce, they must develop the four application of mindfulness, isn't that encompasses samatha and vapassana. :-) and in order to increase and produce, there must be virture, mindfulness and clear comprehension :-), Cheers Ken O #106924 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:11 am Subject: Re: Some thoughts on life March, 2010 sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > I've done some cut outs from VsM and Suttas and written some of my thoughts on life. This topic is unfortunately not frequently discussed on the web sites. ... S: Thx for the quotes...just catching up! ... > > Some may object to this way of considering life. But let us not forget that the Buddha's 1st Noble truth was the Truth of Dukkha, and its origin (2nd NT) is craving. The 3rd NT deals with cessation of suffering by ceasing of craving. Also as MN115 states, one cannot have right view if one doesn't believe that all is Dukkha. > > " It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as pleasant. " > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/115-bahudhatuk\ a-e.html" .... S: Yes, including the highest arupa jhana! Metta Sarah ========= #106925 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Han), # 106117 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: >> Han: Thus, in the context of the first interpretation by Ledi Sayaadaw, I agreed that when there is an idea of the tangible object or visible object being a computer, or a biscuit tin, or a glass, it is attanu di.t.thi, but not sakkaaya di.t.thi. > <..> >> S: Good. Yes, it's atta, but we don't take the 'bowl' for being oneself! > ... > KO:?? Now according to suttas, the wordings of sakkayditthi is the same as attanuditthi.? > a.??? Since bowl is not an aggregate, so where does attanuitthi comes from? ... S: We take the hardness, the visible object, the other khandhas experienced, for being 'some thing', a bowl. ... > b.????We would say this is my bowl, will we say?I am this bowl or take bowl for oneself??? ... S: Exactly! It is taken for some thing, but not for oneself. Attanuditthi, but not sakkayaditthi. We give a very narrow meaning of 'atta' when we translate it as 'self'. If you would like further explanations on this point, perhaps Han can help! Metta Sarah ======== #106926 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO:? Only those who practise jhanas will have supramundane jhanas.? those who do not practise jhanas, will not have supramundane jhanas.? ... S: Can you give me your reference for this? As I understand and have read, with all lokuttara cittas, there is said to be "supramundane jhana" regardless of whether any mundane jhana had been attained, on account of the appana samadhi, equivalent to that of jhana (of 1st jhana in the case where higher jhanas were not the basis for insight). ... > Below are three suttas where there is no jhana involved > > ?Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html > <> > Shows that Ven Kondanna does not have jhanas and he is enlighted as sotapanna. > > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html > < Now during this utterance, the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more.>> > No jhanas here also > > Adittapariyaya Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.nymo.html > <> > Also no jhanas here. ... S: Good sutta selections. Metta Sarah ======== #106927 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Will, codetermination sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Pt), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: > But knowing conditions for siila is the 4th Noble Truth. > This is very subtle. This is not me striving. ... S: Yes, it is subtle and I appreciate your point and the discussion you were both having. Metta Sarah ======== #106928 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >> ... >> KO:?? Now according to suttas, the wordings of sakkayditthi is the same as attanuditthi.? >> a.??? Since bowl is not an aggregate, so where does attanuitthi comes from? >... >S: We take the hardness, the visible object, the other khandhas experienced, for being 'some thing', a bowl. >S: Exactly! It is taken for some thing, but not for oneself. Attanuditthi, but not sakkayaditthi. > >We give a very narrow meaning of 'atta' when we translate it as 'self'. > >If you would like further explanations on this point, perhaps Han can help! KO:? The correct definiton is three, views: -?either as a self (sakkayditthi) or as eternal?or annahlistic point of view (miccha ditthi). Craving, we crave for the bowl, or Conceit - we think the this bowl is better than that bowl.? these are the there dhammas that cause the mental proliferation.? When there is something in thing, it?is the?perversion of?preceptions caused by the three dhammas.? And not the bowl itself is the cause. Also the text define attanuditthi as sakkayaditthi, if you definition is different, pse quote souce, thanks Kind regards Ken O #106929 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Just one point very quickly as you keep mentioning it and there seems to be some confusion: --- On Mon, 19/4/10, Ken O wrote: >When there is something in thing, it?is the?perversion of?preceptions caused by the three dhammas.? And not the bowl itself is the cause. ... S: No one here, no one at all on DSG, has ever blamed the "bowl" as the cause of the vipallasas or of any other unwholesome states. The "bowl" is just a figment of the imagination. We all agree that the proliferations, the papancas, refer to the thinking with lobha, mana and ditthi and that these are the problem rather than bowls or the purple flying elephants or whatever else is dreamt about. Metta Sarah ===== #106930 From: "colette" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:10 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ksheri3 Good Morning Ken H., Matching wits our we? :) > * eight jhanas can be "external" and are "observable" > --------------------------- > > Yes, all consciousness is potentially observable. At a moment when it has just ceased to exist it can be observed by a following, existent, consciousness. > > With jhana consciousness, however, the process is not so straightforward. As I understand it, jhana is a state of deep absorption that is very hard to snap out of. Only someone who was both a jhana master and a vipassana master could switch to vipassana consciousness quickly enough to catch a just-fallen-away jhana consciousness. > > ----------- colette: the first key point you conveniently missed was/is "...can be EXTERNAL..." but I need to use this same problem later when you apply the same concept elsewheres. "...very hard to snap out of." Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, surely you are toying with me. There are countless signs that you study Western esoteric practices, I mean that as a compliment as well as a warning sign to me and to others. In that little bit of a sentence that I copied you encapsulated such a great deal of what I've been trying to capture and better ascertain, become conscious of/more aware of, in a scientific way. You may also be alluding to the condition of consciousness called YOGA NIDRA or TURIYA. Still, you've established that Yoga Nidra/Turiya (my terminology) and the 8 Jhanas are different from VIPISSANA. While it is interesting that you have clearly defined two seperate courses of study, approaches to the concept of ENLIGHTENMENT, I am not concerned, AT THIS TIME, with the concept of VIPISSANA eventhough there's tons of material pointing at this aspect in the cannon, in our group here (DSG), and through the luck of having such a knowledgable practitioner as Nina, in our midsts to assist us in our folly. I'm focusing on the concept that you presented to me: the 8 Jhanas are a resultant phenomena from a process involving VIPISSANA. "...to vipassana consciousness quickly enough to catch a just-fallen-away jhana consciousness." OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, MY MISTAKE! the second I copied that last part of the sentence I witnessed MAYA (god of illusions) flirting with us. I'm gonna walk away from that argument for the time being.But I'm still leaving it intact just in case I need to continue this line of thought. ----------------------------------------- > . . . > C: > My understanding of vipassana is that vipassana is a METHODOLOGY or a term used to describe a condition of consciousness at a particular point in time during a METHODOLOGY, practice, procedure, process. > ------------ > > I think most Buddhists would agree with you on that, but some of us wouldn't. It is one of those important points on which our entire understandings hinge. Some see vipassana as a method, some see it as a single moment of right understanding. > colette: again, you are toying with me! "...single moment of right understanding." YOU DIDN'T CAPITALIZE Right Understanding, which is important here for the 8 FOLD NOBLE PATH, isn't it? ----------------------------- > And never the twain shall meet! colette: are you suggesting that I never really was a WEST PACK SAILOR? And you mean to say that you don't have to say "mark twain" if you are actually measuring the depth of a river or the depth of an ocean? Do you know what a "twain" is that can be marked? --- But we can still agree on minor points. :-) colette: I have the strongest urge to question you on the point called IGGULIM. But that may be a sore spot with some people. GOOD TO SPEAK WITH YOU. THANX FOR MAINTAINING THE CONVERSATION. toodles, colette #106931 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) ashkenn2k Dear Sarah S:?No one here, no one at all on DSG, has ever blamed the "bowl" as the cause of the vipallasas or of any other unwholesome states. The "bowl" is just a figment of the imagination. We all agree that the proliferations, the papancas, refer to the thinking with lobha, mana and ditthi and that these are the problem rather than bowls or the purple flying elephants or whatever else is dreamt about. KO: You said there is something on the thing, so what is the cause of this something?? Also Sukin said this <>? So methods are concepts,? it is quite contrary to your claims that we all agree.? More impt, you are basing on attanuditthi which I said there is no textual support on your claims.??Attanuditthi is sakkayditthi that is said clearly on the text by Path of discrimination, Dispeller of Delusion, and suttas. Now I dont base on my discussion with just understanding. If I am wrong, I will say I am wrong.?? I am not right all the time.???Till date I have yet seen you give me any textual support and?just your claims.? I give you another text where it shows attavadupadana is sakkayaditthi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html Now they assert in terms of this, thus it is a doctrine. By this they cling, thus it is clinging. What do they assert? Or what do they cling to? Self. The clinging to a doctrine about a self is the clinging to a doctrine of self (attavadupadana). Or alternatively: by this a mere doctrine of self is clung to as self, thus it is clinging to a doctrine of self. This is a designation for personality view with its twenty cases. This is the brief account here. The detailed account should be understood by the method stated thus: "Therein, what is clinging to a doctrine of self? Here, the uninstructed worldling who has no regard for noble ones," etc. (Dhs. Section 1217). Kind regards Ken O #106932 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >S: Are you suggesting that "sampaja~n~naa, i.e. pa~n~naa, isn't necessary for the development of samatha or attainment of jhanas? I can't understand your comment. As Alex said, "Of course Jhana requires, wisdom, mindfulness, ethics and so on." KO:? As the satipatthana sutta is set this way, I could not change the arrangement.???I?always said, virture, mindfulness and clear comprehension.??The commentaries state this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html ? <> Even though the arrangement is different from other suttas, the commentaries are clear that mindfulness and comprehension must be estabished for the?practise of any subject of meditation.? kind regards Ken O #106933 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:29 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Ken H, Howard and all, you wrote : I can't quite remember that sutta's being discussed recently - probably not paying enough attention! - and so I don't understand the conclusion: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.' D: it is of another kind ... ( when 'nothing is between.. '... please compare as well the (sutta ) exchange with Howard) KH: Earlier in the sutta there is the following paragraph: ""Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words." I don't see that as applying particularly to DSG, do you? What I mean is, I don't think it applies to the way some DSG'ers refuse to accept formal samatha and vipassana practices. D: I hoped you would recognize that passage ;-) ... well , the quarrel about meditation is lasting on DSG since years.. from my point of view it involves disregard not to say ignorance of what has been said by the Buddha and not that those DSG'ers do not practise accordingly (instructions of the samadhi sequence of the path training -links 6,7,8- ' are not ' formal ' samatha and vipassana practices ). Different ways for different people ..a good reminder on mutual respect , which brings me to your previous message : KH: ( D: : when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness called samatha, tranquillity . That is when the monkey (mind) takes a break ..and at this moment (Citta) either investigation into details of all ( 6 senses/Dhammas) is possible or leaving that all behind step by step (absorbtion ) , i.e. the way of Sati or Jhana , corresponding to the 7th and 8th step of the Noble Path.'' Howard : Dieter, I rarely write "sadhu" messages, but I consider what I quoted above of yours to be simply beautiful, simply lovely! :-) It may sound beautiful, but it goes against everything I understand about the Dhamma. Somewhere (sorry, no reference) the texts speak about the decline of the Buddha's sasana, and they predict a time when the words of poets will be given preference over the words of the Buddha. With all due respect to Dieter, and Howard, to meditation teachers in general, and to the self-help industry in general, I must say that the above language is just typical smoke-and-mirrors. It sounds impressive, but let's not mistake the sound for the meaning. D: don't you think that your remarks are quite rude ? KH: What does "volition rests" mean? What does "nothing is between the world of the senses" mean? Are these things explained in the Tipitaka? D: should you not have asked for that in the first place , instead of claiming false dhamma and talking of 'self-help industry ' ? KH: The term "stopping the monkey mind" is commonly used by meditation teachers to give credence to what is otherwise just high-sounding rhetoric. They imply they are quoting from a sutta, but (as has been carefully explained to Dieter) that sutta is about the brevity of citta, and how it takes just one object at a time. The sutta has nothing to do with sitting quietly and somehow slowing the citta process (monkey) down. D: the sutta in question is about the difference between the mind of those instructed and those not instructed. I think I have made my point in previous messages KH: The people mentioned in the sutta were arguing over the classification of paramattha dhammas. So they were basically on the right track - learning about paramattha dhammas - their fault was simply in not recognizing different ways of classifying. The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) D: now it is up to you to explain that in detail KH:The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) D: the sole point of the Dhamma as the Buddha pointed out , is suffering, its orgination, its cessation and its way leading to cessation . with Metta Dieter #106934 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter & Ken - In a message dated 4/19/2010 2:30:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: KH:The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) D: the sole point of the Dhamma as the Buddha pointed out , is suffering, its orgination, its cessation and its way leading to cessation . =================================== Guess with whom I agree on this one! ;-)) And, Ken, how ARE we to understand dhammas? I believe the Buddha's answer would be "as dukkha and anicca, for the conditioned ones, and as anatta for all," and "as not to be clung to but, instead, to be relinquished." With metta, Howard How to View Dhammas /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) _______________________________ /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ & /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #106935 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:44 pm Subject: Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening truth_aerator Dear Sarah, KenO, all, Thank you for all your replies. >"sarah" wrote: > > Dear Ken O (& Alex), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > KO:? Only those who practise jhanas will have supramundane jhanas.? those who do not practise jhanas, will not have supramundane jhanas.? > ... > S: Can you give me your reference for this? > > As I understand and have read, with all lokuttara cittas, there is said to be "supramundane jhana" regardless of whether any mundane jhana had been attained, on account of the appana samadhi, equivalent to that of jhana (of 1st jhana in the case where higher jhanas were not the basis for insight). > ... > > Below are three suttas where there is no jhana involved > > > > ?Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html > > <> > > Shows that Ven Kondanna does not have jhanas and he is enlighted as sotapanna. > > > > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html > > < > Now during this utterance, the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more.>> > > No jhanas here also > > > > Adittapariyaya Sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.nymo.html > > <> > > Also no jhanas here. > ... > S: Good sutta selections. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > You can't always include everything that they did in one sutta (which subject may have been not the story of a person, but a concrete sermon). For example, many of you seem to believe that awakening requires extraordinary amount of time gathering "accumulations". Do those suttas mention this? Do they mention that those ascetics had parents? Just because such things (which are taken as a given) are not mentioned, does it mean that these things didn't exist? In any case, those 5 ascetics have suppressed most of 5 hindrances quite well, so it is not a hard stretch to suggest that they mind was fairly pure and eventually receptive for Buddha's teaching. Their ascetism may have somewhat similar effects as after-jhanic hindrance free state from which to have insight into phenomena. I am not sure that absolutely all people are so ready that they can have powerful insights through mere reading and considering. At least not me. In the suttas it was often the case that a person had to undergo ascetism or samatha training prior to the discourse that brought one to awakening. When it comes to suttas, please don't forget that they typically focus on the Buddha's sermon and not on the history of a meditator (especially if the person was training toward stream entry), and so the only things that could have been recorded is the attainment of stream entry through hearing the Buddha's discourse. It is not unlikely that in all those "arahant while cooking" stories, the attainment and what immediately happened prior to it was only a tip of the iceberg. Who knows for how long did those people meditate prior to this climax. Maybe they meditated 20 hours a day for weeks, months or years prior, maybe even for multiple lifetimes. This is why I put more wait toward definitive and general statements of the Buddha. It is more likely that "momentary concentration" is a better launch pad than understanding with a lesser concentration. And the Full Jhana is the ideal turbo-powered mindfulness state, coming from which to really be able to penetrate, and understand (intuitively, not rationally) the truths, the jhana states, and let go of all things (jhana included). However, I do not think that one can transcend Jhana without being able to reach and master it first. IMHO. With metta, Alex #106936 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:09 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Colette, ------------ C: > Matching wits our we? :) ------------ I do my best. :-) -------------------- . . . C: > the first key point you conveniently missed was/is "...can be EXTERNAL..." -------------------- Yes, I did try to duck that one. I don't think we can call the object of consciousness external. It might be external in the sense that it is a separate dhamma (from the consciousness that perceives it) but it can't be external in the sense of belonging to another being. We can never know another being's consciousness. What we can know is that all consciousness - past, present, future, our own or others - has the same three characteristics, anicca dukkha and anatta. ----------------------- C: > "...very hard to snap out of." Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, surely you are toying with me. There are countless signs that you study Western esoteric practices, I mean that as a compliment as well as a warning sign to me and to others. In that little bit of a sentence that I copied you encapsulated such a great deal of what I've been trying to capture and better ascertain, become conscious of/more aware of, in a scientific way. You may also be alluding to the condition of consciousness called YOGA NIDRA or TURIYA. . . . ------------------------- I don't know about any of those things. I don't know much about jhana either. When I said jhana was hard to snap out of I was trying to recollect explanations other people had given me. All I know is that jahana consciousness is very difficult to attain, and even more difficult to directly experience once it has been attained. It seems logical that an already-arisen jhana factor would be more difficult to experience than would any other already-arisen consciousness, but I don't know exactly why it is. -------------------------- KH: > > Some see vipassana as a method, some see it as a single moment of right understanding. > C: > again, you are toying with me! "...single moment of right understanding." YOU DIDN'T CAPITALIZE Right Understanding, which is important here for the 8 FOLD NOBLE PATH, isn't it? ----------------------------- Yes, everything that REALLY exists does so in a single moment of consciousness. A single moment of RIGHT UNDERSTANDING would be a fine thing indeed. ----------------------------------------- KH: > > And never the twain shall meet! C: > are you suggesting that I never really was a WEST PACK SAILOR? ------------------------------------------ I wouldn't dare suggest such a thing. :-) But it's always good to remember that what we were in the past - or are now, or will be in the future - is the same as for everyone, just the presently arisen namas and rupas: there is no self that continues on from one moment to another. Ken H #106937 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:47 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ------------- <. . .> > > ""Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words." KH: > > I don't see that as applying particularly to DSG, do you? What I mean is, I don't think it applies to the way some DSG'ers refuse to accept formal samatha and vipassana practices. D: > I hoped you would recognize that passage ;-) ... well , the quarrel about meditation is lasting on DSG since years.. from my point of view it involves disregard not to say ignorance of what has been said by the Buddha and not that those DSG'ers do not practise accordingly (instructions of the samadhi sequence of the path training -links 6,7,8- ' are not ' formal ' samatha and vipassana practices ). Different ways for different people .. ----------------- No, I don't think it is a matter of different ways for different people. Admittedly, there are (as in the quoted sutta) different ways of explaining the Dhamma, but there is only one true Dhamma. Unlike the people in the sutta, you and I are talking about two different Dhammas. You are talking about a Dhamma that prescribes a course of action, while I am talking about a Dhamma that describes the way things are now. -------------------------- D: > a good reminder on mutual respect , which brings me to your previous message : KH: > > <. . .> smoke-and-mirrors. It sounds impressive, but let's not mistake the sound for the meaning. > > D: > don't you think that your remarks are quite rude ? ------------------- Yes, but not gratuitously rude. As I see it, the Dhamma is the only satisfactory teaching of ultimate reality. All other teachings that try to explain right from wrong, good from evil, true from false, are bluffing. Their exponents don't really know what they are talking about, and so they rely on high-sounding rhetoric to give an appearance of knowing. -------------------------- KH: > > What does "volition rests" mean? What does "nothing is between the world of the senses" mean? Are these things explained in the Tipitaka? D: > should you not have asked for that in the first place , instead of claiming false dhamma and talking of 'self-help industry ' ? --------------------------- Maybe, but we are going to disagree no matter what we say. That is because we are talking about two different Dhammas. Only one can be true; the other has to be false. And the false one, as I see it, is just another component of the self-help industry. "Self-help industry" doesn't need to be a pejorative term. It can include all religions and all philosophies other than the Dhamma. The self-help industry is for people who want to become enlightened, or want to become 'a better person' or who just want to find happiness. The Dhamma, on the other hand, is for understanding the present reality. ----------------------------------------- KH: > > The people mentioned in the sutta were arguing over the classification of paramattha dhammas. So they were basically on the right track - learning about paramattha dhammas - their fault was simply in not recognizing different ways of classifying. The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) D: > now it is up to you to explain that in detail -------------------------------------------- That's all I ever do - or try to do - at DSG. And it's all that several other people (who know much more than I ) do at DSG. Satipatthana - the teaching of the Buddha - is right understanding of the presently arisen conditioned reality. How's that for an explanation? :-) Ken H #106938 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Dieter and Howard, ------------------- KH: > > > The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) > > > D: > > the sole point of the Dhamma as the Buddha pointed out , is suffering, its orgination, its cessation and its way leading to cessation . -------------------- KH: Exactly! And what is dukkha? It is the five aggregates of clinging - conditioned namas and rupas. And the origin of dukkha is clinging (tanha, lobha) which is, itself, a conditioned dhamma. Cessation is Nibbana: an unconditioned dhamma and the cessation of all conditioned dhammas. And the Way is samma-ditthi, samma-sankappa, . . . samma-samadhi, which are all conditioned dhammas. These are the things that are to be understood. -------------------- H: > Guess with whom I agree on this one! ;-)) --------------- I don't know, is it me? :-) ----------------------- H: > And, Ken, how ARE we to understand dhammas? I believe the Buddha's answer would be "as dukkha and anicca, for the conditioned ones, and as anatta for all," and "as not to be clung to but, instead, to be relinquished." ----------------------- Good, now we are talking like the people in the sutta - about different ways of explaining the presently arisen reality. Except I am wary of the last part of your statement: "as not to be clung to but, instead, to be relinquished." That would be OK if it was a way of understanding dhammas (as not worthy of clinging etc) but it would not be OK if it was a prescription: "Thou shalt not cling to any conditioned dhamma!" So which is it? :-) Ken H #106939 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Dieter) - In a message dated 4/19/2010 8:24:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Dieter and Howard, ------------------- KH: > > > The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) > > > D: > > the sole point of the Dhamma as the Buddha pointed out , is suffering, its orgination, its cessation and its way leading to cessation . -------------------- KH: Exactly! And what is dukkha? It is the five aggregates of clinging - conditioned namas and rupas. And the origin of dukkha is clinging (tanha, lobha) which is, itself, a conditioned dhamma. Cessation is Nibbana: an unconditioned dhamma and the cessation of all conditioned dhammas. And the Way is samma-ditthi, samma-sankappa, . . . samma-samadhi, which are all conditioned dhammas. These are the things that are to be understood. -------------------- H: > Guess with whom I agree on this one! ;-)) --------------- I don't know, is it me? :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- H: > And, Ken, how ARE we to understand dhammas? I believe the Buddha's answer would be "as dukkha and anicca, for the conditioned ones, and as anatta for all," and "as not to be clung to but, instead, to be relinquished." ----------------------- Good, now we are talking like the people in the sutta - about different ways of explaining the presently arisen reality. Except I am wary of the last part of your statement: "as not to be clung to but, instead, to be relinquished." That would be OK if it was a way of understanding dhammas (as not worthy of clinging etc) but it would not be OK if it was a prescription: "Thou shalt not cling to any conditioned dhamma!" So which is it? :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- It is both, Ken. Good intention is good kamma, and it has good effect. (BTW, would that sentence of mine seem more "Dhammic" had I used 'kusala'? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106940 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah (Ken O), > > KO: We would say this is my bowl, will we say I am this bowl or take bowl for oneself? ... > S: Exactly! It is taken for some thing, but not for oneself. Attanuditthi, but not sakkayaditthi. We give a very narrow meaning of 'atta' when we translate it as 'self'. If you would like further explanations on this point, perhaps Han can help! -------------------- Han: I do not think I can be of any help for anyone, because I am a beginner and I, myself, am seeking help from Sayaadaws and other learned friends. But since you have asked me, I will try my best to explain how I understand the topic. First, let me go back to your original statement: [16. When there is an idea of the tangible object or visible object being a computer, a thing, a substance or whole, it is attanu di.t.thi, also an idea of atta, but not sakkaaya di.t.thi.] I have agreed to your statement on two accounts. (1) When there is an idea of the tangible object or visible object (say, a bowl) being a thing, a substance or whole, it is attanu di.t.thi or atta-di.t.thi. (2) but it is not sakkaaya di.t.thi. -------------------- (1) How atta-di.t.thi? I read Samaadi.t.thi Diipanii by Ledi Sayaadaw. In Part Three of the Diipanii, Sayaadaw wrote that "attaa" means self, ego, personality, soul-essence; and the word "anattaa" is used to convey the following three interpretations: (1) asaaraka.t.thena-anattaa: on account of being without essence or substance it is called anattaa. (2) asaamika.t.thena-anattaa: on account of not having any owner or overlord it is called anattaa. (3) avasavattana.t.thena-anattaa: on account of its not yielding to another's will it is called anattaa. Sayaadaw elaborated further on these three interpretations, and under asaaraka.t.thena-anattaa, he wrote: "I shall explain the above with an example. There are such things as wooden bowl, earthen bowl, brass bowl, silver bowl and gold bowl. A bowl made of wood has wood as its substance and is called a wooden bowl; a bowl made of earth has earth as its substance and it is called an earthen bowl; a bowl made of iron has iron as its substance and is called an iron bowl; a bowl made of silver has silver as its substance and is called a silver bowl; and a bowl made of gold has gold as its substance and is called a gold bowl. Here, the word 'bowl' is merely the name by which is indicated a certain pictorial idea (sa.n.thaana-pa~n~natti), and this conventional term of 'bowl' possesses no essence or substance as an ultimate thing". Han: Thus, in the context of the first interpretation of anattaa by Ledi Sayaadaw, I have agreed that when there is an idea of the tangible object or visible object (say, a bowl) being a thing, a substance or whole, it is atta-di.t.thi, but not sakkaaya di.t.thi. -------------------- (2) Why not sakkaaya-di.t.thi? I come across twenty sakkaaya-di.t.thi in many suttas. I will quote just one of them. SN 22.47 Samanupassanaa sutta: Ways of Regarding Things "Bhikkhus, those ascetic and Brahmins who regard [anything as] self in various ways all regard [as self] the five aggregates subject to clinging, or a certain one among them. What five? "Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self (ruupa.m attato), or self as possessing form (ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m), or form as in self (attani vaa ruupa.m), or self as in form (ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m). He regards feeling as self ….. perception as self ….. volitional formations as self ….. consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. Han: There, we have four kinds of sakkaaya-di.t.thi with regard to form: (i) form as self (ruupa.m attato); or (ii) self as possessing form (ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m), like the tree has its shadow; or (iii) form as in self (attani vaa ruupa.m), like smell in the flower; or (iv) self as in form (ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m), like ruby in the casket. When we multiply the above four with five aggregates we have twenty sakkaaya-di.t.thi. But what actually is "attaa" in the above text? There is no explanation of what "attaa" is in the above sutta. The attaa is involved in the definition of sakkaaya-di.t.thi, but it is not exactly sakkaaya-di.t.thi. But I can make out what attaa and anattaa is in Ledi Sayadaw's Samaadi.t.thi Diipanii. Thus, in the context of the first interpretation of anattaa by Ledi Sayaadaw, I have agreed that when there is an idea of the tangible object or visible object (say, a bowl) being a thing, a substance or whole, it is atta-di.t.thi, but not sakkaaya di.t.thi. This is my own interpretation of atta-di.t.thi and sakkaaya-di.t.thi. I may be completely wrong. But that is my position. Kind regards, Han p.s. I have nothing more to add. #106941 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:43 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- <. . .> KH: > > but it would not be OK if it was a prescription: "Thou shalt not cling to any conditioned dhamma!" So which is it? :-) > > H: > It is both, Ken. Good intention is good kamma, and it has good effect. (BTW, would that sentence of mine seem more "Dhammic" had I used 'kusala'? ;-) --------- Since you ask, no, it was beyond redemption. :-) Any intention to make alobha arise is bad kamma. It goes against the Buddha's teaching, which says that dhammas are anatta and therefore uncontrolled. Ken H #106942 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal Hi Ken, =========== <…> >Suk: OK, I get your point. You are saying for example, that those who approach a teacher for some instruction in samatha meditation also gets to hear some Dhamma and this helps to steer them towards the correct practice. > >Whatever the so-called samatha practice is, in such as case, I’d think that it would be more appropriate that the student approach in order to listen and perhaps discuss, rather than to practice, don’t you think? If one approaches with the idea of receiving instructions then one’s attention is not on understanding what samatha is. In which case how effective would any general talk on samatha be? Would the aim not be at getting results which makes it in fact the opposite of detachment? KO: Any practise should not have a desire or expectation to attain result, the practise is to develop more understanding of the dhamma so as to eradicate akusala and end the round of suffering. NewS: The question is, when there is the idea of going somewhere to learn how to practice, can this ever be without desire for results? You say ‘to develop more understanding’, then what about *now*? Why must one think in terms of the future? Are there not dhammas now as there are anywhere else? ========== KO: We cannot say there is no practise because it is very clear in Visud. Also in Visud, it is the chanda, vittaka arise with saddha or panna or both that motivates the discple to receive an samatha subjects from the teacher, The word practise or training does not matter, what matters is the aksuala that arise with it. NewS: Of course there is practice (samatha), but not because it is stated in the Visud. but because much kusala development would be required before there can be the development of the different Parami, including that of Panna. However if you insist on referring to the Visud., just as it is in the rest of the Tipitaka, the development of other kinds of kusala must be seen in light of Satipatthana. Besides in terms of Samatha itself, there is also the question of interpretation which is where we disagree. In this regard, I don’t see the requirement for chanda, vitakka and saddha to be there with or without panna, proves that what has been written in the Visud. regarding samatha is about following ‘methods’. When there is saddha etc. but no panna, this could be dana, sila or an instance of metta, mudita, karuna etc. or perhaps you would say Sanghanusati, Dhammanusati or Buddhanusati? In any case, which of these condition ‘seeing the teachings as ‘method’ to be followed’? If it is some other object, what is it? ========= KO: Just like I have said, rites and ritual by itself there is nothing wrong, it is wrong view that cause it like following the dog ascetism or bathing in the river to cleanse ones kamma. NewS: I don’t know how it is interpreted by others, but when I refer to rites and ritual, I’m pointing to the akusala citta conditioned by wrong view. ========= KO: Thus for any practise we must have clear comprehension of the dhamma that is through listening to the teacher and consider the teachings. Without understanding dhamma as anatta, anicca and dukkha, we are likely to go on the wrong practise. NewS: I’d say that, because we forget that dhammas are anatta that we conceive of practice as being associated with ‘methods’. So we are wrong from the very outset making any subsequent hearing of the Dhamma, more likely interpreted in a way which creates illusions of results and any apparent ‘correction’ just part of that illusion. ========= >Suk: Only when understanding is involved from the very beginning, otherwise it would condition more attachment. And if there is understanding, recitation is not necessary at all. The need to hear and consider the Dhamma over an endlessly long period of time is not the same as much recitation. Suk: Again it is all about panna. And if there is enough panna, one sentence is enough for penetration. The process is Suttamaya panna > Cintamaya panna > Bhavanamaya panna. Therefore if one keeps repeating and say there is only Suttamaya panna then, there will need to be much Cintamaya panna at other times and also Bhavanamaya panna before there can be any real ‘breaks out the compactness of thinking there is self’. KO: That is not true because not one size fixed one. that is why there are different samatha objects for different people. Understanding is just one faculty, even though the most impt. There could be other faculty that condition the growth of panna. Also there are other ways to break out from compactness, not just solely on vipassana. The text is clear on this like the recitation of the 32 parts. NewS: Putting one foot in Samatha and the other in Vipassana, I hope you don’t end up mixing the two. ;-) Isn’t the 32 parts of body the object of samatha? How can this then lead to understanding anatta? Breaking out from compactness comes from right consideration of experiences through the different doorways one at a time, and not by way of a theoretical consideration, let alone concept of 32 parts…… ========== >Suk: Yes, I wasn’t thinking that he was already a Sotapanna, but to have become one he’d have to have very high level of panna nevertheless, don’t you think? KO: He has a certain level of panna without doubt but not vipassana nana yet. That is why I felt many of these samatha practitioners do not understand that meditation is not for ordinary people because the level of understanding and mindfulness is not there. It requires, mindfulness to protect, virture to restraint, panna to understand dhamma. So without these three, the mind will not be able to fix on an object as it will keep looking for sensual objects. NewS: You seem now to be going into the abstract thinking about how mindfulness, virtue and wisdom would direct the particular practice. You are saying that mindfulness conditions coming back to the recitation and virtue prevent it from going on to other sense objects. My question, what is the object of mindfulness, and when virtue arises, what is its object and would this be without panna? ========= >Suk: I think here itself you go wrong. To think that someone who has the required accumulation could pursue with the development by ‘deciding’ to take some meditation subject seems more like following the path of rules and rituals than the development of samatha. > >The person who is developing samatha arrives at the particular subject by virtue of his accumulations. He does not choose between different subjects nor can any teacher simply decide to pick one out for him. And once he has his particular subject, what leads must as always be panna which arises to know the moment and not to follow any prescribed activity. KO: Do you choose to listen to AS now? So what is choosing and what is the object of this listening? NewS: Is it right to make the comparison? A.Sujin as against any other teacher is concept. When I go to hear the Dhamma, I am involved in concepts not believing that particular ones are ‘right for me’ / will condition kusala cittas. I don’t even choose to concentrate on any particular topic, let alone to meditate on one particular concept. There is no idea of control as I am led purely by interest, which of course is sometime kusala and sometimes akusala. The interest is in hearing the Dhamma in general due to seeing its value and not how I can make panna arise by considering certain aspects of Dhamma. I ask questions, but again not with the expectation that understanding ‘must’ arise on being given the answer. And whatever answer I receive and if satisfied, surely this is only something that is *intellectual*. And were I to wonder if whether that was actually any level of panna, I’d sure not go away believing that it most definitely was, but rather only to want to hear and consider the Dhamma more. Can the same be said about the activity of meditation? Does a meditator believe that whatever he learns is intellectual? Does he not have the aim and hence any subsequent idea, of having had direct understanding of some level? ======== >Suk: Rather than replacing one set of concepts with another, I think they should be encouraged to keep listening to and discussing the Dhamma. And even if they are interested only in Samatha, they’d still need to always come back to the present moment. To feed them with the idea that they need to first develop virtue before they can go on to follow a prescribed method for samatha development, seems in fact quite misleading. KO: Nope it is not misleading. It is because one does not understand why it is like that and the need for it. I already explain the importance of virture, mindfulness and clear comprehension above. NewS: I’ve given my response, but a bit more here. In considering the need for sila and sati etc. is it not imperative that we first understand what sila and sati are? And would not these require understanding at least of the level of Suttamaya panna or Bhavanamaya panna? And if this is understood to be the situation, would one still want to go on into talking about such kind of practice? In other words, I believe that thoughts about meditation arise precisely because one has missed the point. ========= KO: Also is our understanding now conceptual or paramatha dhamma level. Also is it the concepts that cause the mental proliferation or the dhammas that arise with the concepts that is the cause. Understand this difference, then we will know the actual practise of satipatthana. NewS: I am saying that the dhamma which conditions thoughts about meditation is the papanca which is miccha ditthi. This of course is intellectual understanding only, but this is how it must be, isn’t it, else how does one ever come to direct experience? ========= >Suk: There is samatha development of course, the question is, does it involve “following a method”? You say it does, and I say this is wrong understanding about samatha. > KO: Then you should show me which text to say it is wrong and there is no method involved. Dont claim under one's understanding or interpretation because Visud and Commentaries have shown there are methods. There are clear instructions like counting breath one to ten in Visud and commentaries, if these are not methods, then what are they? Just because the person likes to count or naturally incline to count? NewS: Not *just because* the person likes to count, there being of course many conditions. There is for example a Sutta in which monks have been described as reacting to akusala cittas by biting their tongue (?) and other such activities which I believe you’d agree are simply conditioned responses to the particular situation. In other words you’d understand all those activities in the light of individual accumulations, conditionality and anatta? Why not similarly with all that is written in the Visud. then? Just as you wouldn’t believe that in biting your tongue it would be with kusala citta, shouldn’t the same attitude be towards all those descriptions in the Visud.? ========== >Suk: I wasn’t talking about the final ‘conclusion’. I know that yours is different from that of those other people. I was talking about interpreting certain things in the texts to arrive at the conclusion about a particular conventional activity, namely meditation, as being necessary part of ‘practice’ (samatha in your case). In this respect I was therefore not talking about mental proliferation arising due to engaging in such a practice, but that the very idea that such practice / methods exists *is* itself a result of papanca. > >========= KO: What is the cause for the arisen for papanca, the practise or the akusala dhamma that arise? NewS: The akusala dhamma which is miccha ditthi conditions the idea and this when followed is wrong practice, which again involves predominantly the dhamma lobha, which is mistaken for sati. ========== >Suk: No one is denying the role of chanda here; I don’t understand why you see the need to bring this up. Sure there must be chanda involved in any conventional activity from reading the Dhamma, going out for a walk or sitting down to follow the breath. The question is, is there panna at anytime? The interest in reading can be with attachment, with wrong view or there can be Right Understanding. When walking there can be attachment, but in between there can be some level of panna to know any object. The interest in samatha manifested as a decision to sit and meditate, this I can’t see as involving panna of any level. This is the point Ken and not that I am confusing the functions of the various dhammas. > >========= KO: that is because you base on your interpretation of dhamma on vipassana practise. When you listen to dhamma, do you sit, do you lend a ear. So what is the difference, the act or the dhamma. You are not confuse over dhamma, you cannot differentiate the difference between an object and the dhamma that arise with the object. NewS: It has never been implied that the conventional activity is the wrong practice. Sitting is sitting, whether this is when listening to the Dhamma, watching TV or meditating. The one associated with watching TV is motivated by attachment. That with listening to the Dhamma can be the same, or kusala interest with / without understanding or with wrong view. That with meditating is with the idea of control / following a method, therefore necessarily with wrong view. ;-) ========= >Suk: So now I ask you, is chanda to seek a quiet place to sit and meditate after having reasoned that this is a ‘method’ to follow, is this possibly rooted in any level of wisdom? If so, what does panna understand at such a moment? KO: Why not, just like you go travel to foundation, you sit down and you listen, so why cant panna arise when meditating. There are so many examples in the suttas and Visud that disciples, recite and meditate and then attain enlightment. Are you saying they are wrong? NewS: No they weren’t wrong, but one reason is that “they were not following a method”. ;-) And btw, what according to you is the method involved in anyone’s travelling to the foundation, sitting down and listening to the Dhamma? Ken, it looks like we are just repeating the same ideas to each other, so maybe we should take a break, what do you think? Metta, Sukinder #106943 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:48 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series no 9. The Experience of Objects through different doorways. nilovg > Dear friends, > > The Experience of Objects through different doorways. > > Seeing is an ahetuka vipaakacitta that experiences visible object > through the eye-door. Hearing is an ahetuka vipaakacitta that > experiences sound through the ear-door. Each of the sense- > cognitions experiences an object through the appropriate doorway. > There is not only one citta that experiences visible object, or one > citta that experiences sound, but each of the sense-cognitions > arises in a series or process of cittas succeeding one another and > sharing the same object. They all cognize the same object, but they > each perform their own function. > > Seeing is preceded by the eye-door adverting-consciousness, which > adverts to visible object. It does not see but it merely turns > towards the visible object that has just impinged on the eyesense. > This citta is an ahetuka kiriyacitta (inoperative citta), it is not > akusala citta, not kusala citta and not vipaakacitta. Seeing, which > is an ahetuka vipaakacitta, is succeeded by two more ahetuka > vipaakacittas which do not see but still cognize visible object > that has not fallen away yet. They perform a function different > from seeing while they cognize visible object. Visible object is > ruupa and it lasts longer than citta. These cittas are receiving- > consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta, that receives visible object > and investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta, that > investigates the object. The investigating-consciousness is > succeeded by the determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta, which > is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. This citta is followed by seven javana- > cittas that are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or > akusala cittas. There is a fixed order in the cittas arising within > a process and nobody can change this order. > There is no self who can determine whether the votthapana-citta > will be succeeded by akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Cittas arise > and fall away succeeding one another extremely rapidly and nobody > can make kusala citta arise at will. Kusala performed in the past > is a condition for the arising of kusala at present. > > When the sense-door process of cittas is finished, the sense object > experienced by those cittas has also fallen away. Very shortly > after the sense-door process is finished, a mind-door process of > cittas begins, which experience the sense object which has just > fallen away. Although it has fallen away, it can be object of > cittas arising in a mind-door process. The mano-dvaaraavajjana- > citta is the first citta of the mind-door process, it adverts > through the mind-door to the object which has just fallen away. The > mano-dvaaraavajjana-citta is neither akusala citta nor kusala > citta; it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. After the mano-dvaaraavajjana- > citta has adverted to the object it is succeeded by either kusala > cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non-arahats), which > experience that same object. > When visible object is experienced through the mind-door the cittas > only know visible object, they do not pay attention to shape and > form or think of a person or a thing. But time and again there are > also other mind-door processes of cittas which think of people or > things and then the object is a concept, not visible object. The > experience of visible object conditions the thinking of concepts of > people and things which arises later on. > > All the time sense objects impinge on the different doorways. They > appear just for a moment, and then they fall away. The Buddha > pointed out the dangers of being infatuated with the objects we > experience through the six doors. He taught people to develop the > wisdom which knows the realities experienced through the six doors > as naama and ruupa, phenomena which are impermanent and non-self. > What is impermanent is ``dukkha'', it cannot be happiness. When we > come to know things as they are, we will be less infatuated with > objects. > ------------- > Nina. #106944 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin > >NewS: The question is, when there is the idea of going somewhere to learn how to practice, can this ever be without desire for results? You say ‘to develop more understanding’, then what about *now*? Why must one think in terms of the future? Are there not dhammas now as there are anywhere else? KO: You are telling you dont go to foundation? So what is now? I do not support meditation presently being practise especially retreats. In the ancient times, they do go a a seluded place. >NewS: Of course there is practice (samatha), but not because it is stated in the Visud. but because much kusala development would be required before there can be the development of the different Parami, including that of Panna. However if you insist on referring to the Visud., just as it is in the rest of the Tipitaka, the development of other kinds of kusala must be seen in light of Satipatthana. Besides in terms of Samatha itself, there is also the question of interpretation which is where we disagree. > >In this regard, I don’t see the requirement for chanda, vitakka and saddha to be there with or without panna, proves that what has been written in the Visud. regarding samatha is about following ‘methods’. When there is saddha etc. but no panna, this could be dana, sila or an instance of metta, mudita, karuna etc. or perhaps you would say Sanghanusati, Dhammanusati or Buddhanusati? In any case, which of these condition ‘seeing the teachings as ‘method’ to be followed’? If it is some other object, what is it? KO: I am repeating myself. I already said, if there is no mindfulness, virture and clear comprehension, one should not undertake a meditation subject. Could you explain to me how does panna interest and act. you have yet explain to me. > >NewS: I don’t know how it is interpreted by others, but when I refer to rites and ritual, I’m pointing to the akusala citta conditioned by wrong view. > KO: so is rites and ritual wrong by itself? >NewS: I’d say that, because we forget that dhammas are anatta that we conceive of practice as being associated with ‘methods’. So we are wrong from the very outset making any subsequent hearing of the Dhamma, more likely interpreted in a way which creates illusions of results and any apparent ‘correction’ just part of that illusion. > KO: what is wrong with a method, the dhammas or the method itself? What does anatta got to do with method? > >NewS: Putting one foot in Samatha and the other in Vipassana, I hope you don’t end up mixing the two. ;-) Isn’t the 32 parts of body the object of samatha? How can this then lead to understanding anatta? Breaking out from compactness comes from right consideration of experiences through the different doorways one at a time, and not by way of a theoretical consideration, let alone concept of 32 parts…… KO: There is the development of 32 parts whether one like it or not. It is clear in the text it is use to eradicate greed. Are you saying now your understanding is paramatha level and not a theoretical level. Also there show how little dinosaurs understand samatha bhavana, the two bhavana must end in the delimiting of materiality and immateriality. This is always said in the texts. >NewS: You seem now to be going into the abstract thinking about how mindfulness, virtue and wisdom would direct the particular practice. You are saying that mindfulness conditions coming back to the recitation and virtue prevent it from going on to other sense objects. My question, what is the object of mindfulness, and when virtue arises, what is its object and would this be without panna? KO: There is no need to use sense object as a development. Some use dhamma, some use concepts, it depends on the person's inclination. Buddha never specify said use sense objects, there are other means. Even in satipatthana there is samatha and vipassana and not just vipassana. To think it is just vipassana in satipatthana that is wrong and not according to the texts. We can always discuss the satipatthana suttas. Also I already said there must be clear comprehension and that is panna. Without mindfulness to guard against aksuala, panna would not be able to penetrate the meaning of dhammas and eradicate aksuala latency, it is the role of mindfulness to protect and to remember the kusala qualities. >KO: Do you choose to listen to AS now? So what is choosing and what is the object of this listening? > >NewS: Is it right to make the comparison? KO: Why not? Then how do you choose. If you claim there is no choosing why you choose to listen to AS. And why cant other people choose a particular subject. If that is alright with you, why cant it is alright with others? Double standards? > >A.Sujin as against any other teacher is concept. When I go to hear the Dhamma, I am involved in concepts not believing that particular ones are ‘right for me’ / will condition kusala cittas. I don’t even choose to concentrate on any particular topic, let alone to meditate on one particular concept. There is no idea of control as I am led purely by interest, which of course is sometime kusala and sometimes akusala. The interest is in hearing the Dhamma in general due to seeing its value and not how I can make panna arise by considering certain aspects of Dhamma. I ask questions, but again not with the expectation that understanding ‘must’ arise on being given the answer. And whatever answer I receive and if satisfied, surely this is only something that is *intellectual* . And were I to wonder if whether that was actually any level of panna, I’d sure not go away believing that it most definitely was, but rather only to want to hear and consider the Dhamma more. KO: that is your preference, Buddha never said development of enlightement is purely based on paramatha dhammas, it can be based on concepts and you also start from concepts even in understanding dhamma now. You can ask without expectation, why can't other people ask without expectation. Again isn't it double standard? Also did you choose to listen to her? Isn't that that act and concentrate to listen. Can you listen without concentration? >Can the same be said about the activity of meditation? Does a meditator believe that whatever he learns is intellectual? Does he not have the aim and hence any subsequent idea, of having had direct understanding of some level? KO: That does mean the meditator does not know that the object in his mind is also not self. Not self is not restricted to dhammas, it could be apply to concepts just like the 32 parts or the cemetary meditation. Buddha never restrict not self on dhammas only, not I, not myself and not mine, are all could be concepts and dhammas :-). >NewS: I’ve given my response, but a bit more here. > >In considering the need for sila and sati etc. is it not imperative that we first understand what sila and sati are? And would not these require understanding at least of the level of Suttamaya panna or Bhavanamaya panna? And if this is understood to be the situation, would one still want to go on into talking about such kind of practice? > >In other words, I believe that thoughts about meditation arise precisely because one has missed the point. > KO: Nope, then you are dismissing what is written in the Visud. Prove by text and not by claims. Everyone can claim. > >NewS: I am saying that the dhamma which conditions thoughts about meditation is the papanca which is miccha ditthi. This of course is intellectual understanding only, but this is how it must be, isn’t it, else how does one ever come to direct experience? >NewS: The akusala dhamma which is miccha ditthi conditions the idea and this when followed is wrong practice, which again involves predominantly the dhamma lobha, which is mistaken for sati. KO: That is really a total disregard to the what is taught by Buddhism, dont forget Buddha taught meditation also. >>NewS: Not *just because* the person likes to count, there being of course many conditions. > KO: text pse. There is for example a Sutta in which monks have been described as reacting to akusala cittas by biting their tongue (?) and other such activities which I believe you’d agree are simply conditioned responses to the particular situation. In other words you’d understand all those activities in the light of individual accumulations, conditionality and anatta? Why not similarly with all that is written in the Visud. then? Just as you wouldn’t believe that in biting your tongue it would be with kusala citta, shouldn’t the same attitude be towards all those descriptions in the Visud.? > KO: We have to be clear, what I have written is supported by the text, your example is not. If you wish to give an example pse give one that is reasonable. > >NewS: It has never been implied that the conventional activity is the wrong practice. Sitting is sitting, whether this is when listening to the Dhamma, watching TV or meditating. The one associated with watching TV is motivated by attachment. That with listening to the Dhamma can be the same, or kusala interest with / without understanding or with wrong view. That with meditating is with the idea of control / following a method, therefore necessarily with wrong view. ;-) KO: your conventional activity is listening is ok, why meditation is not ok. You mean when you listen to dhamma, you dont condition your mind to fix on the listening, isn't that also a control? Isn't going to the foundation a conditoned act, a controlled act and a purposedly done act? If not, why do you go there? So what is control and what is anatta? >NewS: No they weren’t wrong, but one reason is that “they were not following a method”. ;-) And btw, what according to you is the method involved in anyone’s travelling to the foundation, sitting down and listening to the Dhamma? KO: You mean seating down, listening and concentrating on listening is not a method and then seating down concentrating breath is a method :-) Double standards again right :-) cheers Ken O #106945 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/20/2010 12:43:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, --------- <. . .> KH: > > but it would not be OK if it was a prescription: "Thou shalt not cling to any conditioned dhamma!" So which is it? :-) > > H: > It is both, Ken. Good intention is good kamma, and it has good effect. (BTW, would that sentence of mine seem more "Dhammic" had I used 'kusala'? ;-) --------- Since you ask, no, it was beyond redemption. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------- :-)) -------------------------------------------------------- Any intention to make alobha arise is bad kamma. -------------------------------------------------------- The record of the Buddha urging the intention (and execution) of mental activities cultivating wholesome states by a wide variety of means is long and clear. I find this to be a fact that is repeatedly verified by studying the Buddhdhamma, which pariyatti activity, BTW, is widely urged and practiced by folks on DSG. I also consider the opposite view to be the oddest denial of reality imaginable. (But, hey, I'm assumed to be one of those "self-help" guys! You know, like that crazy guy who said something about being an island/lamp unto oneself? ;-) Some quoted material backing up the claim that the Buddha urged proactivity is provided for your consideration (or, more likely, your rejecting reinterpretation) at the end of this post. --------------------------------------------------------- It goes against the Buddha's teaching, which says that dhammas are anatta and therefore uncontrolled. ---------------------------------------------------------- There is no self that controls anything. But you know darn well that "we" can and do intentionally do things all the time, including your engaging in this conversation. The fact that this all reduces to a flow of impersonal conditions doesn't change that in the slightest. Analogically: A subatomic physicist who "knows" that 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of a chair is empty space will, unless insane, not fear sitting down. ----------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard _____________________________________________ "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) --------------------------- "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) ---------------------------------------------- "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into _right view_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ditthi/index.html) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into _right resolve_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sankappo/index.htm\ l) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into _right speech_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into _right action_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-kammanto/index.htm\ l) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into _right livelihood_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ajivo/index.html ) : This is one's right effort." — _MN 117_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html) ----------------------------------------- /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #106946 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - At the end of this post I provide one more teaching of the Buddha's that urges vigorous, intentional action without waste of time. With metta, Howard The Fleetingness of Life & the Urgency of Practice /Just as a dewdrop on the tip of a blade of grass quickly vanishes with the rising of the sun and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a dewdrop — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death. Just as when the rain-devas send rain in fat drops, and a bubble on the water quickly vanishes and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a water bubble — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death. Just as a line drawn in the water with a stick quickly vanishes and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a line drawn in the water with a stick — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death. Just as a river flowing down from the mountains, going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it, so that there is not a moment, an instant, a second where it stands still, but instead it goes & rushes & flows, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a river flowing down from the mountains — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death./ (From the Arakenanusasani Sutta) #106947 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding (part 2): AN VI i (51): "... - even so a monk's introspection is most fruitful in good conditions..." Evamevam. kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno paccavekkhan.aa bahukaaraa [bhikkhu paccavekkhamaano bahukaaro (ka.)] hoti kusalesu dhammesu ?" Scott: What about the above? How do you see this phrase to qualify what some might consider to be an explanation of method? We can see that 'hoti' relates to 'bhavati' and, to me, is a clear reference to the behaviour of dhammas in a natural order. How not to mix sammutisacca with paramatthasacca here? How to connect sammutisacca with paramattha sacca? Do you think that the two modes of description, referring to a single thing, ought to have some sort of correspondence? Sarah: "Generally, I understand the passage to be referring to the undestanding of kusala and akusala - all dhammas have to be seen for what they are, like looking in the mirror. As I wrote: 'Aren't these also about understanding dhammas for what they are? For example, when he stresses seeing the smallest faults, how is this possible without the development of satipatthana or the path leading to satipatthana, depending on the understanding of the listeners? Just because he didn't mention 'anatta' in every sutta doesn't mean it is not implied.' Scott: Again, we agree here. The point of contention is that when the Buddha suggests a form of 'introspection' with certain parameters is he literally suggesting to ordinary people a way of thinking? That is, is he teaching a right way to think conventionally about certain things? Some might call this a 'method.' One need not misunderstand this to imply that one should think this way to cause other dhammas to arise. Sarah: "If instead we read some kind of method into the passage above and think there is some suggestion of going to look in the mirror, self-striving, checking through the defilements that have arisen during the day or last five minutes or even last five seconds, then I believe it's very wrong." Scott: In the passage, I think it is the introspection that is encouraged, described in what might be the holistic thinking process any one of us might experience during our day-to-day worldling thought process. It is not the literal looking in the mirror sort of thing - this would be an absurd literalist form of 'practise.' Sarah: "If you read it as 'an endorsement of a methodical way of thinking', I believe you're forgetting about conditioned dhammas and anatta. Whatever the Buddha said is for the understanding of anatta. Otherwise, why do we need a Buddha? Why not stick to our psychology studies?" Scott: I'm as against the ridiculous self-help industry-cum-buddhism as are you. I don't wish to throw out the baby with the bath water. I don't agree with Ken O., in some ways difficult to articulate. I think, however, that he is reacting to a sort of dogmatic short-hand we are prone to which might obscure a valid point. The Buddha teaches truth, not pop-psychology. The pop-psychology is a creation of wishful thinking and desire for results. But if the Buddha teaches one to think a certain way - and this as opposed to any other way of thinking - then this is still the teaching of truth couched in sammutisacca language. Sarah: "Let me put it this way, if one has the idea that the path of satipatthana or vipassana is about understanding realities without a special method, but that another approach is that of samatha-bhavana and that this involves a method, then I believe this indicates there isn't an understanding of satipatthana, samatha bhavana or anatta." Scott: Do you differentiate between 'samatha-bhaavanaa' and jhaana? I think that we can read in the texts that jhaana was capable of development. Leaving aside the whole modern misunderstanding of 'meditation' and focusing on the texts, it seems to me that, say taking the whole kasina 'method' for example, there were ways in which one behaved on order to enter the various levels of jhaana. Is this not the case? S: "I've asked Ken O several times what samatha is. KS also asked him. He doesn't reply but says he knows panna and detachment from sense objects is involved and refers to jhanas and the Vism 'methods'." Scott: Interesting. I'd gathered that some sort of impasse had occurred but was unclear on the details. I can just hear it all in my mind's ear (ha ha). This is the point I'm sort of seeking clarification on. I don't think one can fudge on this: there really does seem to be a methodology in using a kasina to facilitate jhaana. There really were jhaana masters. These really had to go from novice to master and these really were people like us at some point. They did use kasinas and there was a described methodology. Can this be denied? Other requisite factors need to be considered but surely these basics are incontrovertible. Can we say that the Visuddhimagga might contain descriptions of ancients methods whereby, again for example, jhaana was achieved using kasinas? We'd need to clarify that these do not apply to the modern reader. S: "The point is that samatha (calm) is passaddhi cetasika. Passaddhi cetasika or calm arises with all sobhana cittas. So at this moment of wise reflection on the dhamma, passaddhi cetasika has been conditioned already...Right understanding can learn to know the distinction and the value of the moments of kindness and the harm of the unkind moments. Again, such understanding is conditioned to arise (or not arise), but not by following a method. If the understanding grows, so does the metta and its value becomes more and more apparent. This is an example of samatha bhavana, the development of calm, in daily life. It can also be developed, again if there are conditions, whilst writing to friends here!! But not by Atta, not by thinking in terms of methods." Scott: This desribes the unfolding of satipa.t.thaana. And yes, samatha-bhaavanaa is inherent in the process. This does not address the specialised form of samatha-bhaavanaa that is clearly involved in the pursuit of jhaana. Was this not also a way of samatha-bhaavanaa - all relevent qualifiers implied? S: "For many in the Buddha's time, samatha bhavana was developed up to the various jhanas. Again, each citta, each reflection, each moment of calm was conditioned." Scott: Yes. Was there not a conventional method as well - a series of acts, kasinas, etc. that were in use? Sarah: "If we agree (as we do) that the development of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, it's clear that the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana is wrong and indicates a lack of understanding of the development of samatha and vipassana. Whatever the particular tendencies, any desire to have such states such as jhana or insight, hinders the development. Even a very slight wish for any attainment hinders the development immediately and leads away from the path. This, I understand, is what is meant by natural development of samatha and satipatthana. Any wish, expectation or trying to attain anything prevents the development of detachment from all that is conditioned in life at this moment." Scott: What about just jhaana for jhaana's sake? This was something that people could attain. Jhaana was certainly experienced as described. I see that, coming from a totally vipassanaa-centric view, you return again and again to jhaana in order to have vipassanaa. Right. No one can will the requisite consciousness and mental factors to arise and intuit jhaana-citta by wisdom. This is orthagonal to saying that jhaana in and of itself arises and that there are methods for this. I think it might be going too far out on a limb to deny this circumscribed point. Sarah: "(I don't believe I was particularly targeting Ken O's ideas, but I see you are)." Scott: Yes, I am, as I mentioned in the last post. S: "Any intention to have anything arise or any method at all is not the development of detachment from everything and anything that has been conditioned already. It hinders the path to think in terms of methods at all. Now if by 'methods' anyone is just referring to descriptions given conventionally about the lives and attainments of particular individuals as given in the Vism or elsewhere, that's OK. However, just as I wouldn't describe the 'burning of the curry' as a 'method' leading to enlightenment, nor would I describe the 'counting of breaths' or 'the stretching out the arm' as a method. I also wouldn't refer to 'Doing samatha' or 'doing' anything else in the context of the path." Scott: What about simply acknowledging that jhaana was practised methodically? Or that the Buddha suggested certain ways of thinking about things? Sarah: "Or Scott's? :-)" Scott: As explained. I don't care for my opinions. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #106948 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:44 pm Subject: Anatta and condition ashkenn2k Dear all The interesting thing about anatta, is not about following a natural way or vipassana or samatha.? Even if one will to do asceticism like what Buddha has done, dhamma irregardless would be anatta.? Even if there is jhanas master who could accomplish all the supernormal power, dhamma still remain anatta.? Even if Buddha do the twin miracle display, it is still anatta.? Even if one think one control dhamma or dont control dhamma, dhamma will still be anatta.?? Even if one think one listen or one do meditation, dhamma is still dhamma and is anatta.? Whether the object is a concept or a dhamma, the nature of dhamma is still anatta.? The nature of anatta remains the same, the nature of rise and fall of dhamma remains the same. When one think anatta is this way, no one or no thing or any condition could change the nature of anatta, then one realise there is nothing we could do to?the nature of dhamma.? But there is something we could do, develop the understanding the nature of it.? Understanding this nature is not about doing things naturally because it is not possible, why?? Because listening and reading dhammas?do not follow the rise and fall of dhamma,?? Only when one could do things with the rise and fall of dhamma, then we could say our actions are natural.? When one said, it is all conditioned, how do one understand this word?? D.O. is also about conditions, listening is also condition. reading is also condition, doing meditation is also condition,?it is impossible to be unconditioned in this conditioned world except for Nibbana.? When one purposedly act, it is also condition, not purposely act?is also condition.? Whatever we do, think, act or proliferate, whether it is concept or not,?it is by nature condition by dhammas.? One said panna is conditioned to arise, sure it is, impossible for panna not to be conditioned to arise same as lobha.??All conditioned?dhamma are by nature must have conditions to arise, impossible?for it to arise?on its own or not arise if the conditons are there.?? When one have this perspective that it is already by nature conditioned, the development is to understand?the?nature of these conditions?and not because our actions are conditioned or not or panna is conditon to arise or not.? So the development of understanding is not whether one act or dont act, choose or?dont choose, wish or dont wish,?natural or not natural, control or not control,?dhamma or concept, because?all?are?by nature condition (except Nibbana),?by nature anatta.? So?the development is to understand this nature and?following?which are written in the tipitaka, be it with?methods or rules or samatha or vipassana We cannot change the nature,?therefore there is no need to be concerned about?whether our action is?against?the nature?or not, or?control the nature or not, natural or not because?it still does not change the nature,? But we can change the way we?understand this?nature. :-) Apology for the repeition and long winded, just feel like saying this. Cheers Ken O? #106949 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:12 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and condition truth_aerator Dear KenO, Thank you for this interesting post. I do agree that "choice to do" and "choice not to do", are both conditioned and anatta. What is better, to try one's best to develop more understanding or to don't do anything at all (and allow kilesas to sweep one away)? It seems that some people appear to take the Anatta principle to the extreme of kusala inaction: "Eat, drink and be merry, for things are anatta and nothing can be done." With metta, Alex #106950 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and condition ashkenn2k Dear Alex it is not that they dont do?any actions, is it just that they?dont admit that listening and reading dhamma?are actions, they dont admit that listening to dhamma?are choices?made, are effort done by them.? They attribute to panna and accumulations.? But they dont understand panna only penetrates the meaning of the nature of dhamma, panna dont act, dont make choices.? Accumulations just accumulate, they only become decisive support condition when kusala and akusala arise.? Accumulations dont act, make choices or strive. They always said it is just dhamma now, they forget they also go to listen to dhamma, read dhamma and discuss dhamma,? These actions are all control and directed, if they are not, one will not be able to?read?or listen or discuss dhamma. ? So now is only applicable if sati arise, if sati dont arise there is no now.? Now is not the function of panna, is the function of sati.? They said that doing kusala now is the development of samatha bhavana, then Mother Teresa would have been a jhanas master, yet she is not,? Why because there is no sati as a faculty?for the kusala. They cannot separate concepts from dhamma, even if they claim to me that mental proliferation only arise with akusala, they still insist, rules, methods are wrong.?? They say it must be natural, yet they read dhamma books,?Reading books is not natural in Buddha time They?believe?panna will naturally?arise due to coniditions, but without conventional actions to listen and read and discuss dhammas would panna arise.? Cheers Ken O #106951 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:25 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Ken H, Howard and.., you wrote: ('D: > I don't understand . Jhanas (and Satipatthana i.e. the 7th and the 8th factor of the Noble Path) , are means for insight /vipassana. Are you claiming that there is no insight with Jhana states? Please read the sutta again) ------------------ Yes, that is what I am claiming. It's a very common claim at DSG. Jhanas are not the way to enlightenment. The best they can lead to is a fine immaterial existence, which can continue for aeons. But that form of existence does not allow for hearing of the Dhamma, and so it is a kind of heavenly prison. D: the Buddha talked in this sutta about the occasion of his enlightenment, do I need to quote the Jhana passages ? KH: I don't entirely agree with your classification of the seventh factor as 'satipatthana that is a means for insight/vipassana.' Satipatthana is essentially the same as vipassana. D: not the same , sati patthana, the 7th factor means application for sati, the instructions of the 4 contemplations aim to perfect mindfulness (samma sati), allowing insight Kh:They are names that are given to all aspects of the path combined. The only difference is that satipatthana refers exclusively to the mundane path, while vipassana refers to both the mundane and the supramundane path. Satipatthana takes a conditioned dhamma as its object: vipassana takes either a conditioned dhamma or nibbana as its object. D: I would leave that to Howard for an answer ;-) (KH: > > All other arahants - with the exception of chief disciples and pacceka Buddhas - attain after taking ordinary (non-jhana) dhammas as objects of vipassana D: ? where did you get this from ??) KH: I don't know where exactly but it's in the Tipitaka. D: you got something wrong , it would be contradictory to the emphasis the Buddha gave to Jhana (Samma Samadhi). KH: What I meant to say was that only an elite few (know in the texts as "Buddhas and Buddhas' Sons") can attain enlightenment by means of jhana and vipassana in tangent. Those elite few always take breath (the most difficult of all jhana-meditation objects) as their meditation object. Anyone can use breath as an object of relaxation meditation. (I think yoga instructors would agree with that.) But only an elite few can use breath as an object of concentration (jhana) meditation. That is because breath becomes more and more difficult to detect as concentration increases. D: I would say only an unfortunate few cannot use breath as an object of concentration at least for a brief time ...it calms body and mind and serves as a mean for sati and jhana training, . You probably mix the Anapanasati -Sutta and the state of 4th Jhana. For the latter the absorbtion of breath marks this state , nothing to look for.. ------------------------------ KH: What I meant to say was that only an elite few (know in the texts as "Buddhas and Buddhas' Sons") can attain enlightenment by means of jhana and vipassana in tangent. Those elite few always take breath (the most difficult of all jhana-meditation objects) as their meditation object. D: Buddha's Sons refer usually to the Order of the Monks , the Sangha, striving for or having attained nobility. The majority is likely to use attention to in- and outbreathing in their samadhi training KH: It's not my day! :-) I meant to say "jhana and vipassana in tandem" not "jhana and vipassana in tangent." D: I assume you mean samatha and vipassana in tandem, which is the way it works (if not getting stuck in tranquillity ) KH:The arguments at DSG are not over how to understand dahmmas, they are over whether understanding dhammas is the sole point of the Dhamma. Which it is! :-) D: the sole point of the Dhamma as the Buddha pointed out , is suffering, its orgination, its cessation and its way leading to cessation . =================================== H: Guess with whom I agree on this one! ;-)) And, Ken, how ARE we to understand dhammas? I believe the Buddha's answer would be "as dukkha and anicca, for the conditioned ones, and as anatta for all," and "as not to be clung to but, instead, to be relinquished." KH: Exactly! And what is dukkha? It is the five aggregates of clinging - conditioned namas and rupas. And the origin of dukkha is clinging (tanha, lobha) which is, itself, a conditioned dhamma. D:or more detailed: Dependent Orgination which describes the orgin of the whole mass of suffering KH: Cessation is Nibbana: an unconditioned dhamma and the cessation of all conditioned dhammas. D: the wording ' Nibbana is an unconditioned dhamma ' is - as far as I know - not used in the Sutta- or Vinaya Pitaka. KH:And the Way is samma-ditthi, samma-sankappa, . . . samma-samadhi, which are all conditioned dhammas. These are the things that are to be understood. D: do you recognize that you rationalize the path factors instead of training them/taking the medicin ? KH: (D: > I hoped you would recognize that passage ;-) ...well , the quarrel about meditation is lasting on DSG since years.. from my point of view it involves disregard not to say ignorance of what has been said y the Buddha and not that those DSG'ers do not practise accordingly (instructions of the samadhi sequence of the path training -links 6,7,8- ' are ot ' formal ' samatha and vipassana practices ). Different ways for different people ..)----------------- No, I don't think it is a matter of different ways for different people. Admittedly, there are (as in the quoted sutta) different ways of explaining the Dhamma, but there is only one true Dhamma. Unlike the people in the sutta, you and I are talking about two different Dhammas. D: well, then it must be the level of (right) understanding what makes the difference Kh: You are talking about a Dhamma that prescribes a course of action, while I am talking about a Dhamma that describes the way things are now D: I understand that is the point of the K.S. school However the course of action conditions the way things are now. Seeing reality as it is (anicca, dukkha, anatta), which in the 3 fold path training concerns the panna part ( supported by the sila and samadhi part) is not the end but the way to develop disentchantment, dispassion, detachment , liberation .. Howard quoted : /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," - such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) KH: 'Maybe, but we are going to disagree no matter what we say. That is because we are talking about two different Dhammas. Only one can be true; the other has to be false D: more or less ignorance , again, the truth of Dhamma is relative to the level of one's understanding and that starts with a beginning of right view towards its perfection. KH: '. And the false one, as I see it, is just another component of the self-help industry. "Self-help industry" doesn't need to be a pejorative term. It can include all religions and all philosophies other than the Dhamma. D: well , the term 'industry ' is already perorative ..more to it done by a recent comment refering to A.Cha, the Dalai Lama and the Pope.. KH: : (D: > a good reminder on mutual respect , which brings me to your previous message : KH: > > <. . .> smoke-and-mirrors. It sounds impressive, but let's not mistake the sound for the meaning.> > D: > don't you think that your remarks are quite rude ? ------------------- KH: Yes, but not gratuitously rude. D: well, the fable of the Fox and the Grapes came into my mind ( source Wiki) for your kind consideration: The Fox and the Grapes is a fable attributed to Aesop. One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour." It is easy to despise what you cannot get The English idiom "sour grapes" - derived from this fable - refers to: the denial of desire for something sought but not acquired the denigration and feigning of disdain for that which one could not attain The phrase is sometimes also used to refer to one expressing, in an unsportsmanlike or ungracious way, anger or frustration at having failed to acquire something (i.e. being a "sore loser"), regardless of whether the party denies their desire for the item. Similar expressions exist in other languages; for example, the Persian expression: "The cat who cannot reach the meat says it stinks!" In psychology, this behavior is known as rationalization. It may also be called reduction of cognitive dissonance unquote with Metta Dieter P.S: perhaps a good time now kindly to agree on disagreement ... #106952 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:27 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and condition szmicio Dear Alex, > Thank you for this interesting post. L: Why interesting? There is no interesting things nowhere;> > I do agree that "choice to do" and "choice not to do", are both conditioned and anatta. L: thinking only of control or no control. > What is better, to try one's best to develop more understanding or to don't do anything at all (and allow kilesas to sweep one away)? L: When understanding appears, then all is forget. No pondering whether there is any control or not. > It seems that some people appear to take the Anatta principle to the extreme of kusala inaction: L: It can happen, why not, then there is only akusala. Then we can have more metta for such guys. This is only such kind of conditioned mind that is lazy and have no viriya. > "Eat, drink and be merry, for things are anatta and nothing can be done." L: Just akusala thinking. Instead there can be learning gradually in life that all is sankhara, conditioned. When you move your hand, this is conditioned, different fleeting moments of decisions going through mind. Intention to have kusala and applying to that, this is all conditioned, it cannot be changed, it's gone. Smiling, looking and drinking in girls is conditioned. Intention to not looking for a nice girl and applying for nekkhama instead is conditioned. It is not ours, it arise and fall away, nothing can be done with it. But when this is gradually more clear then we can see what is the way, the way to the end of misery. We see conditions for kusala, we see how good words of someone else can influance us, how they condition kusala. Instead of trying to do something this is better to understand. This is what Khun Sujin explains constantly. Best wishes Lukas #106953 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - I'm quoting only the following line of your post: > Apology for the repeition and long winded, just feel like saying this. ================================ I loved this post of yours, Ken. It is perfectly on-target, IMO. My saying so will not endear you to many here, but, hey, just some more conditions. :-) With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /"Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could."/ (From "The Sound of Music") _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /Empty, empty, empty, empty, empty!/ (The Catechism of Catechisms) #106954 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I loved this post of yours, Ken. It is perfectly on-target, IMO. My saying so will not endear you to many here, but, hey, just some more conditions. :-)" Scott: Again, correct Howard. What with you and Alex endorsing Ken O.'s newfound position, all credibility is off. I mean I like a good steak but when the vultures are eating the steer I'll leave it to them. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #106955 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:21 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt scottduncan2 Dear Dieter, Regarding: D: "...It is easy to despise what you cannot get..." Scott: It is so cool that you've attained jhaana! And the modest approach is so refreshing. Please do say more about the experience of jhaana to us all. It would be so very interesting to hear all about it. Sincerely, Scott. #106956 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 4/20/2010 2:19:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I loved this post of yours, Ken. It is perfectly on-target, IMO. My saying so will not endear you to many here, but, hey, just some more conditions. :-)" Scott: Again, correct Howard. What with you and Alex endorsing Ken O.'s newfound position, all credibility is off. I mean I like a good steak but when the vultures are eating the steer I'll leave it to them. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. =================================== "Vultures" - hey, good one, Scott! :-) BTW, just so you'll have your share, I've been observing your recent conversations with Sarah and marveling at your apparently newly-found flexibility! (Sorry, man!) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106957 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "'Vultures' - hey, good one, Scott! :-) BTW, just so you'll have your share, I've been observing your recent conversations with Sarah and marveling at your apparently newly-found flexibility! (Sorry, man!)" Scott: Ha ha. Thanks, Howard, I'll take that one but just this once - do you want to ruin my credibility as well? Sincerely, Scott. #106958 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and condition truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, >Instead of trying to do something this is better to understand. This >is what Khun Sujin explains constantly. And one of the purposes of meditation is to gain more understanding. It is not, a mindless diversion from the path (although people with wrong understanding can misuse any tool, no matter how advanced). With metta, Alex #106959 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta and condition truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, Thank you for your post. I agree with it. >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > >it is not that they dont do?any actions, is it just that they?dont >admit that listening and reading dhamma?are actions, Same could be said about proper meditation. >they dont admit that listening to dhamma?are choices?made, are >effort done by them.? Strictly speaking a meditator doesn't reach such and such state. Nama does. >They attribute to panna and accumulations. Same could be said about going to secluded place, sitting cross legged, and with full mindfulness, wisdom and clear contemplation the nama reaches jhana, nanas and awakening. >They say it must be natural, yet they read dhamma books,?Reading >books is not natural in Buddha time Right! Good point. > They?believe?panna will naturally?arise due to coniditions, but without conventional actions to listen and read and discuss dhammas would panna arise.? > > > Cheers > Ken O Panna rises due to conditions. But these conditions must exist. Panna doesn't just jump out of blue sky. With metta, Alex #106960 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/20/2010 2:39:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "'Vultures' - hey, good one, Scott! :-) BTW, just so you'll have your share, I've been observing your recent conversations with Sarah and marveling at your apparently newly-found flexibility! (Sorry, man!)" Scott: Ha ha. Thanks, Howard, I'll take that one but just this once - do you want to ruin my credibility as well? Sincerely, Scott. #106961 From: "Rob" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Perhaps you'd read my earlier messages first and then we can discuss further, if you like. > > From Vism X1V, 82: > > " 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all > taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what > has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness > (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why > 'consciousness' is said (M i 292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), > citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning." > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > Hi Sarah. I read the links, and I think we just disagree. I am not sure who wrote: "According to the Pali canon, all conditioned phenomena arise and fall away immediately. Nothing lasts or is `passed on'." I agree that is true of all conditioned phenomena. However, there is a liberation from the conditioned. There is also citta bhavana, development or cultivation of citta, via methods that are consciously chosen. There are choices to block and let go of unwholesome volitions; and to cultivate and maintain good ones, thus merit accumulation. This implies some kind of subjectiveness. I kind of like the 5 niyama concept; with niyama apparently meaning a process of causality. Of these, citta niyama appears to have a personal quality. "The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning." Ven W Rahula suggested they are near synonyms; if I understood correctly, but with shades of meaning. I am inclined to tilt that direction, right now. Please be forbearing if I do not use the technical transliteration method, I just find it confusing at this point. Vinnana = vi plus nna = to know plus -na, the gerundive -ing. The vi- is a cognate of dis- and can have one of three general functions. I think, here, it means 'apart' in the sense of separate; dividing up, sundering; same as in vinaya. I think vinnana divides knowing into the 6 categories. Mano-vinnana knows phenomena, a composite of the 5 sensory qualities. Manas, as distinct from mano-vinnana, perceives noumena, it deals with abstract concepts not directly related to objects of sensory perception {visaya; vis (vid?) + a + ya?}. So it would be a technical mistake to call this a vinnana. It is just nnana. ven Walpola Rahula suggested that alaya, the so called 8th C, would be the same as citta. I think a possible etymology of citta is, cit = to accumulate plus ta = ed, maybe forming an adjective noun? Something like that. Alaya has a similar etymology, ala = gather, accumulate, plus -ya. Again, as with manas, I think it is a mistake to call alaya a vinnana. I take it to be citta that is conditioned or stained. I go a step further, in that I accept an Amala; a = not, mala = dirty. Visuddha and Vimala would be near synonyms of amala. Those two words also give us examples of the other two senses of vi-/dis-. In visuddha, it is most likely an intensifier, it sets the use of the word suddha 'apart' from the common meaning of pure, like the dis- in disgruntled. Visuddha means intensely or utterly pure, disgruntled means totally 'gruntled.' In vimala, it is clearly a reversal or removal, like the dis- in disengage, vimala means cleansed, or 'no longer dirty.' Anyway, I take Amala {immaculate} as the same as luminous citta; which I see as the same as cultivated citta, 'mind' that is freed from or cleansed of adventitious defilements. Amala is sort of always luminous {a- / an- is not necessarily a reversal, anatta is not a reversal of a self, it never was atta}; but from one perspective it can become like a tarnished jewel. Also, I do not take it to be a vinnana; it does not divide up knowing. BTW, the vi- in vinnana is certainly not a reversal or removal. It could be an intensifier, but I think the sense of separating or 'dividing up into categories,' like the dis- in discriminate, makes the most sense. One whole in my logic is the concept of unconditioned citta, it is like saying uncompounded sankhara. ~~ >scratches head< I realize that there are other takes, and I have certainly not dis-missed those. I am willing to live with the ambiguity of not yet knowing the answers. One interesting take I heard is thst luminous citta is the rebirth consciousness, and is to be avoided, rather than cultivated. If volitions are impersonal and arise according to causes and conditions outside of 'my' control, does it matter? And if so, what does citta bhavana even mean? I apologize for any typos. Two grandkids are over here today and my concentration was tested. By using the words I and my, I do not mean to imply a perpetual self. : with metta robin #106962 From: "Rob" Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Robin, > > Your comments and quote given by B.Bodhi are interesting, but there's little I agree with and little which I think is supported by the texts. > > For example, the khanika samadhi, momentary concentration, arises now with every single citta. Its object is exactly the same as the citta's and the other co-arising cetasikas. At a moment of seeing now, there is khanika samadhi arising. It's not a matter of developing it, directing mindfulness or noting anything. When there are attempts to direct anything, I believe it is wrong concentration that is being developed. > > The Buddha taught a wrong path as well as a right path. We need to consider what the difference is. Right and wrong concentration can both be accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling, for example. > > I'm happy to discuss in more detail if you'd care to. > > Metta > > Sarah > Hi, We appear to be about 180 degrees apart. Your take on the texts seems to be quite a bit different than mine. What you are saying is Khanika Samadhi is much different than my take. No ill will at all, but I do not know if there is much value in pursuing this. My inclination is more along the lines of what I have read from ven. Walpola Rahula and Bhikkhu Bodhi. I could be going the wrong way, but it is working for me, right now. Thank you for taking the time to respond. If it is all right, I'll likely lurk for a while. palms together robin #106963 From: Vince Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello cerovzt@... Rob wrote: > there is a liberation from the conditioned. There is also citta > bhavana, development or cultivation of citta just I wonder what is cultivating citta but same citta. All conditioned phenomena must arise and fall away immediately so both citta and the cultivation of citta can be included in an instant of cease. best, Vince, #106964 From: "Rob" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Rob wrote: > > > there is a liberation from the conditioned. There is also citta > > bhavana, development or cultivation of citta > > just I wonder what is cultivating citta but same citta. > All conditioned phenomena must arise and fall away immediately so > both citta and the cultivation of citta can be included in an > instant of cease. > > > best, > > Vince, > I see an inconsistency there. Why bother with anything? Cittas rise and fall, but is there is some habitual continuity or pattern on some level? It seems like we can direct that, push it a certain way. Of course, I think we can direct our minds, our volitions. Otherwise, samma vayama. for example, makes no sense to me. Others seem to disagree. with metta robin #106965 From: "Rob" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anger. How to stop / with .Metta-Karuna / rrobinrb2000 Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ... > >robin writes: Not really, I do not think so. Adosa could also be apathy; neither metta {empathy} nor dosa {antipathy}. > ... > S: Adosa is always a sobhana (beautiful) cetasika, never an unwholesome one, which apathy suggests. robin replies: I suppose apathy in common usage implies something unwholesome. Literally, it just means without emotion. It is, in that sense, neutral. > .... > >robin writes: If we understand that such ignorance causes others to be bound, and therefore they must experience dukkha, and we feel empathy with that, as if their dukkha is also our dukkha, then I think we have experienced karuna. We feel their pain, we shed real tears for them. Maybe like a parent feels for a lost child. > ... > S: When "we feel their pain, we shed real tears for them", isn't this dosa (aversion) with unpleasant feeling? As soon as there's the slightest unpleasant feeling, we can be sure it's not karuna (compassion). I have to disagree here. The Chinese translation of karuna is word that means 'lamentation.' I see it as being like mourning or a catharsis. It is bittersweet and beautiful. Like the words 'parting is such sweet sorrow.' It is like authentic blues. The idea is to beat the blues, not to get depressed. A good blues musician is smiling; but is honestly addressing the pain, not being saccharine sweet or feigning kindness and joy. There are tears of rage, tears of grief, tears of bitterness, tears of sorrow, tears of joy. There is an old song called 'The Drunkards Sorrow Waltz.' It is both a tearful lamentation and a confession-repentance. It is cleansing. ... > >One thing, I have been told that cultivating karuna might arouse very intense emotions of sorrow. > .... > S: Impossible! Karuna can only arise with pleasant or neutral feeling. The beautiful (sobhana) cetasikas which only arise with wholesome roots can never arise with sorrow or unpleasant feeling. What I am saying is that there is fine line here. I also know people who went through karuna cultivations and became too emotional. Teachers I have spoken with suggested that metta & karuna bhavana should be balanced with non-attachment. > ... > >I think Karuna is bittersweet sorrow; not bitter. That is my understanding, fwiw. > .... > S: Just sweet, very sweet. That is my understanding, fwiw:-) > ... robin: I do not think so. What is sweet about others in pain or stress? How can we feel sweet in response to the real pain of another? How can we be happy in response to suffering, unless we are sadistic? What IS sweet is the warm concern or compassion that arises in response. The Buddha's Compassion can be seen in his words to the householder Sigala. Those were not sweet, nicey nicey words. He gave some pretty tough advice -- I am sure in a warm way that reached Sigala's heart. > >" ... karuna is actually our ability to relate to another in so intense a measure that the plight of the other affects us as much as if it had been our own. ... The root meaning of karuna is said to be the anguished cry of deep sorrow and understanding that can only come from an unblemished sense of oneness with others." -- Nitin Kumar > ... > S: This is not karuna as taught by the Buddha. Did the Buddha have any "anguished cry of deep sorrow"? I don't think so! He was likely referring to a possible etymology of the word karuna. I think you are missing the point. Budagosa wrote that the suffering of others makes the heart of good people tremble. The 'unblemished sense of oneness with others" is the more important part. It is not just suffering with the other person, but knowing how to release them from that suffering, to impart bliss or joy that transcends life's woes. Here is what I mean by bittersweet. My wife I had a dog for 14 years. After the dog died, I wrote: "So far the adjustment is tough on the gut level of non-conceptual perception and habits. On the conceptual level, I know she is gone. We have accepted that. Then, I will be eating, and I find myself thinking I need to save the dog a bite. We come home from the store and enter the house, we are automatically looking around for her. Then there is that tight-ness in the gut, the tears that rim the eyes. One thing about a dog, even if one is only gone briefly, they are thrilled when you return. "And who can say why your heart cries ... Only Time." > > Metta > > Sarah > ========= Well, we seem to disagree, again. :) palms together robin #106966 From: "Rob" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta and condition rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > They?believe?panna will naturally?arise due to conditions, but without conventional actions to listen and read and discuss dhammas would panna arise.? > > > Cheers > Ken O > Ken O. I agree! There must also be some kind of decision to act {thoughts, words, deeds}. The concept of samma vayama implies that we can choose to act on a cetana or not. When we choose to cultivate cetanas that have not arisen. When we do so, it seems like they proliferate. We might be inclined to act on envy when it arises, and arise it will. Then it will stay with us like a bad odor that clings to fabric. However, we can choose to let it go. We can counter it by cultivating muditta {no good English word for that one}. Then, after a while, envy gets blocked before it arises. It is all causes and conditions, D.O, but our choice to act on it, or let it go, is among those causes and conditions. I can not make a pig fly, but I can change my inclinations. Some days. most days actually, I wake up dizzy, weak, in pain, and a bit grumpy. I do not feel like doing anything. I can lay there in bed and try to understand that. Or I can drag myself out of bed, clean up, and sit down to chant the metta sutta. I think I can sign this 'with metta,' but if I wrote 'with panna,' that would be arrogant. robin #106967 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 16-mrt-2010, om 16:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Might we not *know* about an imagined something being probable or not? > Also, how about when, like the Buddha, we speak of something being > "possible"? Might not possibility be a fact of nature and not just > speculation? > Does the Buddha say that "possibility" and "likelihood" are > nonsense notions, > or does he consider these to be meaningful qualities of conceived-of > events? ---------- N: This is thinking about conventional notions, and thinking is conditioned; it is not disapproved of. We all think. At such moments thinking can be understood as a conditioned naama, not I who thinks. As I just posted: Besides thinking there are other realities such as seeing and visible object. We should not be neglectful and develop right understanding of them. If there is only thinking about: is this probable, is this likely, we are forgetful of all the other realities that occur time and again. ***** Nina. #106968 From: "Rob" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Robin, > For example, the khanika samadhi, momentary concentration, arises now with every single citta. Its object is exactly the same as the citta's and the other co-arising cetasikas. At a moment of seeing now, there is khanika samadhi arising. It's not a matter of developing it, directing mindfulness or noting anything. When there are attempts to direct anything, I believe it is wrong concentration that is being developed. Sarah, I may have missed your point. Are you saying that the ordinary, run of the mill, uninstructed person already has mindfulness and khanika samadhi? I think it might be moment-to-moment mentality, but samadhi? Or are you saying that Appana Samadhi and Khanika Samadhi are the same? I think the difference is that, in Appana Samadhi, sensory contact is closed off, there is no contact. The mind is fixed on one object. The mind may consist of a series of momentary cittas; but the pattern is relatively stable. In khanika samadhi, the mind fluidly shifts from object to object, without fixing on any one. I think The sense doors are open, there is contact; but not attachment? One day, I was sitting by the river down the street, watching some acquaintances fish. There were three older guys fishing. All were bottom fishing with no bobber. That calls for line watching. One guy was all distracted and `jumpy.' He kept misplacing things and missing bites. He was constantly cussing too. And frowning. Also, he reacted to everything that happened around us. If a car drove by, or someone showed up, he turned sharply to look. A squirrel climbed up a tree, he jumped to see what made the noise. He could 'not see the forest for the tress,' and could not really see the trees either. Another was so engrossed in his line watching; that he seemed unaware of anything else. People would say something to him; he did not even hear it. People came by and left, he did not even notice. I noticed a fixed, blissful smile on his face. He caught some fish, but missed a few because he was almost lost in a reverie type trance state. It was like he reduced the forest to one tree, and saw nothing else. The third guy was calm but alert. He was taking everything in; he saw the big picture, the whole forest. He had a cheerful face, bright eyes, and engaging demeanor. He was chatting with me; pointing out different kinds of trees, foliage, birds, and insects; discussing currents; noticing and acknowledging who came and who left; and was rigging hooks at the same time. His motions were fluid. All the while, he watched his line and never missed a bite. He was what I call mindful. He was seeing both the forest and each tree. with metta robin #106969 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello scottduncan2 Dear Robin, Regarding: R: "...The third guy was calm but alert. He was taking everything in...He was what I call mindful. He was seeing both the forest and each tree." Scott: I'm sorry but this isn't sati. I'm afraid it's just a fishing story. Sincerely, Scott. #106970 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:55 am Subject: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika farrellkevin80 Dear Friends (all), This is a portion from an e-mail that I recently sent to a good friend. "I have decided to take on a new endeavor... ...Anyway, I was reflecting on the fact that I used to read so many suttas. Before I came to Thailand, I didn't have a great deal of interest in the Abhidhamma and mostly read suttas. I am so happy that I read all those suttas. They inspired me so much and gave me so much faith and devotion. They made me love the Buddha and the Ariyans. Those suttas helped me a great deal. The problem these days is that not many people study Abhidhamma, which has details. Most Theravada Buddhists study a lot of suttas though (or at least some of them do). The problem is, some of the translations they read could be more accurate. Also, it is hard for people to read the Commentaries so they sometimes get wrong views about the Suttas. My intention is to learn the Pali language. This may take a few years. After I have laerned it well and can translate, I will translate the whole Sutta Pitaka, sutta by sutta, with line by line Commentaries into the English. I will translate the whole of the Sutta Pitika, along with it's Commentaries (and in many cases tikas) and post them on the internet on an internet site that I develop like Accesstoinsight. This will be my gift to the world, in accordance with past aspirations, I assume. Therefore, I have a lot of work ahead of me. It will take me a while to become proficient enough in Pali to translate texts with high quality translations. The time will come when I will be able to do it though. After that, I figure I can translate one sutta per day. That is a very doable goal. In a year three year period, I will be able to translate over 1,000 suttas. Also, the career I am going into, which is nursing, we allow me to take a good amount of time off. This time can be spent translating as well. My goal is to translate the Suttas along with the Commentaries (line by line) because suttas is what most people tend to study. This may help clear up some wrong views in the readers. At least for people who are really serious about Dhamma, they will be able to see what the ancient tradition really says about things, wether they agree with them or not, I suppose. When the Sutta Pitika is done, I suppose I will keep translating. At that point, I will translate the seven books of the Abhidhamma along with all associated Commentarial material and post it online as well. But that project won't start for a long time; it may be more than a decade out from now as I have to learn Pali and complete the Sutta and Commentary translations first. One step at a time. With metta and karuna, Kevin" This will keep my busy for the next few years, or probably decades. Thanks, Kevin #106971 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------ <. . .> KH: > > Any intention to make alobha arise is bad kamma. > > H: > The record of the Buddha urging the intention (and execution) of mental activities cultivating wholesome states by a wide variety of means is long and clear. ------ You are confusing the Buddha with other great figures in history. Jesus, Mohammed and Moses, for example, urged people to do good by conventional means. The Buddha taught satipatthana. -------------------- H: > I find this to be a fact that is repeatedly verified by studying the Buddhdhamma, which pariyatti activity, BTW, is widely urged and practiced by folks on DSG. -------------------- If you are looking for a conventional teaching you will find one - even where it doesn't exist. -------------------------- H: > I also consider the opposite view to be the oddest denial of reality imaginable. -------------------------- It's called "no self" and, yes, it is very difficult to grasp. ----------------------------------- H: > (But, hey, I'm assumed to be one of those "self-help" guys! ----------------------------------- Have you read the book I mentioned? It's called "SHAM (Self Help Actualization Movement) - How the self-help movement made America helpless." --------------- H: > You know, like that crazy guy who said something about being an island/lamp unto oneself? ;-) --------------- Now that you point that out to me, dammit, you're right! The Buddha did believe in a self! :-) ----------------------- H: > Some quoted material backing up the claim that the Buddha urged proactivity is provided for your consideration (or, more likely, your rejecting reinterpretation) at the end of this post. ----------------------- Even more likely: I will understand it as pertaining to the six worlds taught by the Buddha. ----------------------------------- H: > There is no self that controls anything. But you know darn well that "we" can and do intentionally do things all the time, including your engaging in this conversation. ----------------------------------- I don't know that at all! Conventionally speaking, we can do a lot of things, but ultimately there is no "we" and there are no "things" to "do". There are only dhammas. ------------------------ H: > The fact that this all reduces to a flow of impersonal conditions ------------------------ Actually, it doesn't. Illusions can't be reduced to dhammas. The creation of illusions can be explained by dhammas, but that is different. ----------------- H: > doesn't change that in the slightest. ----------------- Anatta completely changes the way we understand everything. ---------------- H: > Analogically: A subatomic physicist who "knows" that 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of a chair is empty space will, unless insane, not fear sitting down. ---------------- A Dhamma student, who knows that a chair is just a concept, will also know that "Dhamma student" is just a concept. And so wrong views (wrong understandings of ultimate reality) such as "I can sit on the chair" "I can not sit on the chair" will not arise. Ken H #106972 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:36 am Subject: Sweet Selfless Ease! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Silly Confrontational Opposition: ?I?-dentification = Egoism leads to Conflict: I am ... green, while you are... blue ... Therefore I am against you! Therefore are you against me... Therefore I fear you! Therefore I hate you! Non-I-dentification = selflessness leads to Harmony: This is green, while that is blue ... So is it! So be it! Let it be! Let it go!... Polarity is Pain and Diversity is Noise... Unity is Peace and Harmony is Bliss... As we both and all can, so let us meditate! Dwelling in kind peace is a sweet silent ease. Please repeat the argument exchanging the Green/Blue pair with these: Black/White, Rich/Poor, Educated/Uneducated, High/Low, Big/Small, Man/Woman, Young/Old, Intelligent/Stupid, Beautiful/Ugly, Strong/Weak, Eastern/Western, North/Southern, Race-X/Race-Y, Religion-X/Religion-Y, Culture-X/Culture-Y, etc... Skin-X/Skin-Y Nationality-X/Nationality-Y, etc... Political-X/Political-Y, Color-X/Color-Y, etc... Family-X/Family-Y, Group-X/Group-Y etc....! Opposition is a diluted derivative of Hate! Hate produces only suffering! Foolish, absurd self-torture... <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #106973 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:18 am Subject: Re: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika kenhowardau Hi Kevin, All jokes aside, please write back to your friend and say you have changed your mind. While you are learning Pali you could, instead, be considering and discussing Dhamma. We already have good sutta translations if we know where to look for them. Don't think of making a gift to the world. The world isn't very interested. Ken H #106974 From: "philip" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:39 am Subject: Re: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika philofillet Hi Kevin What a wonderful aspiration! You can do it! You were born human with a sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching, so there is very rare and good kamma at work in "you" (so to speak.) This provides a very precious opportunity for noble aspirations. Thanks for sharing your kusala with us. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Dear Friends (all), > > This is a portion from an e-mail that I recently sent to a good friend. > > "I have decided to take on a new endeavor... > #106975 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where is Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay "A Critical Examination of ?āṇavīra Thera's ...." christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > --- On Mon, 19/4/10, Christine wrote: > >I can no longer find Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay "A Critical Examination of ?āṇ avīra Thera's "A Note on Paṭiccasamupp āda" 1998" anywhere on the internet. All previous links seem broken even in a google search. > > >Can anyone assist? > ... > S: Yes, I think we can. If you go to the DSG files it's still there. I just opened it and it seems fine. > > Any points in particular? > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= Thanks Sarah ~ Nothing in particular ~ just a friend wanted to read it, and I couldn't find it on the Netany longer ~ should have looked in the Files section first, instead of googling. with metta Chris ~The trouble is that you think you have time~ #106976 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/21/2010 12:56:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: H: > The fact that this all reduces to a flow of impersonal conditions ------------------------ Actually, it doesn't. Illusions can't be reduced to dhammas. The creation of illusions can be explained by dhammas, but that is different. ========================== Surely you know darn well that by "reduces to" I am referencing the reality that is mis-taken by ignorance. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #106977 From: "retro77@..." Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:53 am Subject: Sankhata dhammas retro77... Greetings DSG, In the introduction to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, he writes the following... "In the Pali, we can clearly see the connection: the sankharas, the active constructive forces instigated by volition, create and shape conditioned reality, especially the conditioned factors classified into the five aggregates and the six internal sense bases, and this conditioned reality itself consists of sankharas in the passive sense, called in the commentaries sankhata-sankhara. Further, it is not only this connection that is lost to view, but also the connection to Nibbana. For Nibbana is the asankhata, the unconditioned, which is called thus precisely because it is neither made up by sankharas nor itself a sankhara in either the active or passive sense. So, when the texts are taken up in the Pali we arrive at a clear picture in fine focus: the active sankharas generated by volition perpetually create passive sankharas, the sankhata dhammas or conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates (and, indirectly, of the objective world); and then, through the practice of the Buddha's path, the practitioner arrives at the true knowledge of conditioned phenomena, which disables the generation of active sankharas, putting an end to the constructing of conditioned reality and opening the door to the Deathless, the asankhata, the unconditioned, which is Nibbana, the final liberation from impermanence and suffering." This got me wondering... We know from the suttas on dependent origination that sankharas are conditioned by ignorance. So if "the sankhata dhammas or conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates" are all fabricated/constructed/sankhara-ised based upoon an underlying platform of ignorance, then where does that leave us in terms of being able to observe dhammas with panna (wisdom) - in light of the fact a mindstate cannot be simultaneously rooted in wisdom and ignorance? And is it still valid to consider paramattha dhammas other than nibbana as "ultimate" in any way if all sankharas are merely the products of ignorance (avijja)? Let alone paramattha, can dhammas even be considered in any way to even "exist"? In SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta, we read... "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." I look forward to hearing your comments. Metta, Paul. :) #106978 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:43 am Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Paul, Regarding: P: "We know from the suttas on dependent origination that sankharas are conditioned by ignorance. So if 'the sankhata dhammas or conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates' are all fabricated/constructed/sankhara-ised based upoon an underlying platform of ignorance, then where does that leave us in terms of being able to observe dhammas with panna (wisdom) - in light of the fact a mindstate cannot be simultaneously rooted in wisdom and ignorance? And is it still valid to consider paramattha dhammas other than nibbana as 'ultimate' in any way if all sankharas are merely the products of ignorance (avijja)?" Scott: Do you accept that a dhamma bears it's own characteristic? Sincerely, Scott. #106979 From: "retro77@..." Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:19 pm Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas retro77... Greetings Scott, > Scott: Do you accept that a dhamma bears it's own characteristic? Paul: I don't know - I'm not too au fait with Abhidhamma terminology, and I suspect that might limit my capacity to respond meaningfully to such questions. I accept that a thing (dhamma) might be formed, objectified, and reified on the basis of some defining characteristic(s) observed through one or more of the six-sense-bases... but that this active process of mental objectification is a necessarily precursor to it becoming a conditioned dhamma. Does that answer your question? Metta, Paul. :) #106980 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:35 pm Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Paul, Regarding: Paul: "...I accept that a thing (dhamma) might be formed, objectified, and reified on the basis of some defining characteristic(s) observed through one or more of the six-sense-bases... but that this active process of mental objectification is a necessarily precursor to it becoming a conditioned dhamma. Does that answer your question?" Scott: Pa~n~naa and aviija are mental factors, each bearing a specific characteristic - opposing ones, it turns out. The 'reality' of a conditioned dhamma is not a function of 'reification' - of an 'active process of mental objectification,' rather it is an inherent property. This is the Abhidhamma method. If this is unacceptable, you'll be better of sticking to your own thesis (if I'm understanding it) that paramatthasacca is untenable for conditioned dhammas. Sincerely, Scott. #106981 From: "retro77@..." Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:50 pm Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas retro77... Greetings Scott, Thank you - I appreciate the directness in your response. Metta, Paul. :) #106982 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:59 pm Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Paul, Regarding: P: "Thank you - I appreciate the directness in your response." Scott: Any comments on the contents? Sincerely, Scott. #106983 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:59 pm Subject: Re: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika ptaus1 Hi KenH, Kevin, > KH: We already have good sutta translations if we know where to look for them. Don't think of making a gift to the world. The world isn't very interested. Would be nice to have the sutta commentary and subcommentary translations though - for DN, MN, SN, AN, there's only a few bits and pieces available. And since we're on the topic, a new translation of Path of Discrimination, and Kathavatthu would be nice as well. Especially Kathavatthu. Best wishes pt #106984 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:05 pm Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas ptaus1 Hi retro, Scott, > > Scott: Do you accept that a dhamma bears it's own characteristic? > > Paul: I don't know - I'm not too au fait with Abhidhamma terminology, Maybe it helps to clarify - I think what Scott has in mind by "characteristics" are the three general characteristics (tilakkhana - anatta, anicca and dukkha) that all dhammas have in common, and the individual characteristics of each dhamma, i.e. what I understand to be the function of a dhamma (e.g. feeling feels, panna understands, cetana wills, etc.) Best wishes pt #106985 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sankhata dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Paul - Just a few thoughts that occur to me in consequence of your questions: In a message dated 4/21/2010 7:11:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, retro77@... writes: Greetings DSG, In the introduction to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, he writes the following... "In the Pali, we can clearly see the connection: the sankharas, the active constructive forces instigated by volition, create and shape conditioned reality, especially the conditioned factors classified into the five aggregates and the six internal sense bases, and this conditioned reality itself consists of sankharas in the passive sense, called in the commentaries sankhata-sankhara. Further, it is not only this connection that is lost to view, but also the connection to Nibbana. For Nibbana is the asankhata, the unconditioned, which is called thus precisely because it is neither made up by sankharas nor itself a sankhara in either the active or passive sense. So, when the texts are taken up in the Pali we arrive at a clear picture in fine focus: the active sankharas generated by volition perpetually create passive sankharas, the sankhata dhammas or conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates (and, indirectly, of the objective world); and then, through the practice of the Buddha's path, the practitioner arrives at the true knowledge of conditioned phenomena, which disables the generation of active sankharas, putting an end to the constructing of conditioned reality and opening the door to the Deathless, the asankhata, the unconditioned, which is Nibbana, the final liberation from impermanence and suffering." -------------------------------------------------------------------- I hadn't read this, and I'm glad that I now have. Thank you for posting it. ------------------------------------------------------------------- This got me wondering... We know from the suttas on dependent origination that sankharas are conditioned by ignorance. So if "the sankhata dhammas or conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates" are all fabricated/constructed/sankhara-ised based upoon an underlying platform of ignorance, then where does that leave us in terms of being able to observe dhammas with panna (wisdom) - in light of the fact a mindstate cannot be simultaneously rooted in wisdom and ignorance? And is it still valid to consider paramattha dhammas other than nibbana as "ultimate" in any way if all sankharas are merely the products of ignorance (avijja)? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I think your last sentence is an important and valid one. I consider even the paramattha dhammas to be conventional and, if perceived as separate entities, to be ignorance-based. As for the namas and rupas being observed with wisdom, the following occur to me: 1) There are degrees of wisdom, 2) States rooted in wisdom can be interspersed with states rooted in ignorance, 3) Earlier wisdom, already quite powerful, reveals the tilakkhana in all conditioned dhammas, and 4) IMO, later, supramundane, wisdom sees through the illusion of conditions as separate, self-existent entities, seeing through that illusion to seamless, unconditioned reality. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Let alone paramattha, can dhammas even be considered in any way to even "exist"? In SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta, we read... "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." I look forward to hearing your comments. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe that in the foregoing, "existence" refers to independent, essential, intrinsic self-existence (or "thingness"), and I believe that "non-existence" refers to a fully nihilistic lack of existence, a total nullity. Both of these are extremes that go too far (in opposing directions). There *is* variation of quality and function, but our viewing of that is a matter of convention, and there are no separate "things." I believe that reality is not a world of dust-like separate particles, nor a homogeneous consciousness-in-the-sky blandness. I believe it is not a dead reality of any sort. With the full and final going beyond of the three poisons, it is my strong belief that there is "light" and "life" and freedom and joy beyond condition and beyond conception. The joy expressed by the ancient monks and nuns upon full awakening is more than a matter of relief experienced when one stops hitting one's head against the wall. It is a joy that "goes beyond." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Paul. :) ====================================== With metta, Howard /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) __ __ __ __ __ __ __ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) __ __ __ __ __ __ __ /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, One would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #106986 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:17 pm Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding (Who's 'retro?'): pt: "Maybe it helps to clarify - I think what Scott has in mind by 'characteristics' are the three general characteristics (tilakkhana - anatta, anicca and dukkha) that all dhammas have in common, and the individual characteristics of each dhamma, i.e. what I understand to be the function of a dhamma (e.g. feeling feels, panna understands, cetana wills, etc.)" Scott: I don't know if this will clarify - I'd said as much already. The main concern is that if Paul doesn't accept that a conditioned dhamma bears it's own characteristic (aside from those of the ti-lakkhana) then he is basically making a statement that conditioned dhammas are a function of mental proliferation and that paramatthasacca is not relevant. An old argument around here. If we can cut to the chase then we won't have to reinvent the Wheel. Sincerely, Scott. #106987 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sankhata dhammas scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...I think your last sentence is an important and valid one. I consider even the paramattha dhammas to be conventional and, if perceived as separate entities, to be ignorance-based..." Scott: This confirms it, Howard. I'd thought of your views as soon as I read those of Paul and knew you'd be kindred spirits. Sincerely, Scott. #106988 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 21-apr-2010, om 5:55 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > When the Sutta Pitika is done, I > suppose I will keep translating. At that point, I will translate the > seven books of the Abhidhamma along with all associated Commentarial > material and post it online as well. But that project won't start > for a long time ------- N:Kh Sujin would say: what about this moment? It is good to do what you can, but looking so far ahead is difficult. Who knows the circumstances that will come up. I noticed that people translate in accordance with their ways of practice. This greatly influences one's translation. Kh Sujin quotes many suttas on a Thai series, called 'radio tapes' (tape Vithayu). One does not have to translate all suttas, but most important is helping people to see that each sutta points to understanding this moment. For instance now she deals with mindfulness of death. Do we find ourselves important when we die? When the Buddha spoke about this subject the purpose was not becoming calm, but it was not being heedless in the development of satipa.t.thaana. Just knowing realities that appear at this moment through the six doors. It is the same with the other Recollections like mindfulness of the body, or Breath. The characteristic of breath is only ruupa-dhamma. It has to be known as such. The aim was not access concentration or jhaana, the aim was learning that realities are not a person, not self. We should never lose sight of this. Also hand in hand with sutta reading should be the Abhidhamma, otherwise we cannot understand the suttas. Each page of the Abhidhamma points to anattaa. So, why not help others with a few suttas, Abhidhamma and Commentary included? One is never finished with Pali, you would need many lives. Ask Scott how he learnt it so quickly. Also, one should compare several translations, not using just one. But most important, understanding better the reality at this moment, by consideration, discussion. Without this we are lost. Nina. #106989 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:40 pm Subject: Re: Sankhata dhammas ptaus1 Hi Scott, > S: (Who's 'retro?') pt: :) Sorry, "retro" is short for "retrofuturist" - the nick under which I know Paul from other forums - Dhammawheel and (maybe you'll remember him from) E-sangha. > Scott: I don't know if this will clarify - I'd said as much already. The main concern is that if Paul doesn't accept that a conditioned dhamma bears it's own characteristic (aside from those of the ti-lakkhana) then he is basically making a statement that conditioned dhammas are a function of mental proliferation and that paramatthasacca is not relevant. An old argument around here. If we can cut to the chase then we won't have to reinvent the Wheel. pt: Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't aware that this is an old argument here. One thing I wanted to ask on this topic - when insight knowledges happen (but before stream-entry), is the individual characteristic of a dhamma actually understood in the same mind-door process when one of the tilakkhana characteristics is understood, or not? I mean, for example, if panna understands the anatta characteristic of the feeling cetasika, does panna also understand at the same time that it's feeling that's the object of cittas at the time, or does this happen in some previous (or later) mind-door? Thanks. Best wishes pt #106990 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sankhata dhammas nilovg Dear Paul, Op 21-apr-2010, om 12:53 heeft retro77@... het volgende geschreven: > In the introduction to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta > Nikaya, he writes the following... ------- N: Sa.nkhaara and sa.nkhata are the same in meaning, but there is a subtle difference. Citta and cetasikas that arise together are conditioning each other, they are sa.nkhaara dhammas. This is from sa.nkharoti: composing, preparing, conditioning. When a dhamma has arisen because of conditions, it is sa.nkhata dhamma, it has been conditioned already. This refers to what has arisen at the present moment. Sa.nkhata is the past participle of sa.nkaroti, what has been put together already. Nibbaana is not conditioned, it has not arisen because of conditions, it is asa.nkhata dhaatu. I quote from Kh Sujin's Survey: (end quote) Nina. #106991 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sankhata dhammas nilovg Dear pt, Op 21-apr-2010, om 15:40 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't aware that this is an old argument > here. One thing I wanted to ask on this topic - when insight > knowledges happen (but before stream-entry), is the individual > characteristic of a dhamma actually understood in the same mind- > door process when one of the tilakkhana characteristics is > understood, or not? > > I mean, for example, if panna understands the anatta characteristic > of the feeling cetasika, does panna also understand at the same > time that it's feeling that's the object of cittas at the time, or > does this happen in some previous (or later) mind-door? ------- N: Pa~n~naa attends to the feeling that presents itself and knows that feeling as anattaa. No person or self in the feeling. And there is no thinking about it: this is feeling. Nina. #106992 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika farrellkevin80 Dear Ken, Ken: Hi Kevin, All jokes aside, please write back to your friend and say you have changed your mind. While you are learning Pali you could, instead, be considering and discussing Dhamma. Kevin: Friend I heard the Dhamma and understood it already. Ken: We already have good sutta translations if we know where to look for them. Don't think of making a gift to the world. The world isn't very interested. Kevin: Alot of people use the internet these days. It is unsuitable that there are not accurate translations of the Blessed Ones words online with line by line Commentary in English. There is so much wonderful stuff in the Suttas and Commentaries. For example, have you seen the Co to the Susima sutta where the Commentator clearly explains that certain things are said in that sutta to show that one can develop insight without an object of samatha and one does not need serenity based on samatha objects? Or the Commentary to the Satipatthana sutta that explains that "mindfulness" where we try to be aware from moment to moment is like that of a common animal or man and is now what is meant in the Sutta? It also goes on to explain that when a bhikkhu is changing posture he should understand that first there is the thought of changing posture and because of that there is oscillation and so on, and that is how things should be understood... There is a great deal of value in reading the Commentaries and they can work to clear up wrong views in the reader. The site will be large and attractive and will be a presence on the internet eventually, I hope. When people search for suttas, they might come across my page, and because they like a particular sutta very much, they may read the translated line by line Commentary since it is there, even if just out of curiosity. This may become a habit for them. If time alllows, I will translate the whole Tipitika Ken, but first I will translate the Suttas. People who are not interested in Abhidhamma simply won't read Abhidhamma material. People who are interested in the suttas, at least may be able to gain from their Commentaries. Kevin #106993 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika farrellkevin80 Hi Phil. You wrote: Phile: Hi Kevin What a wonderful aspiration! You can do it! You were born human with a sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching, so there is very rare and good kamma at work in "you" (so to speak.) This provides a very precious opportunity for noble aspirations. Thanks for sharing your kusala with us. Metta, Phil Kevin: Phil, thanks for your words. One step at a time I will take. All the Best, Kevin #106994 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika farrellkevin80 Hey Pt. : p you wrote: Hi KenH, Kevin, > KH: We already have good sutta translations if we know where to look for them. Don't think of making a gift to the world. The world isn't very interested. PT: Would be nice to have the sutta commentary and subcommentary translations though - for DN, MN, SN, AN, there's only a few bits and pieces available. And since we're on the topic, a new translation of Path of Discrimination, and Kathavatthu would be nice as well. Especially Kathavatthu. Best wishes pt Kevin: That sounds worthwhile! : ) May the Buddhas teachings spread to the end of the earth! Kevin #106995 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika farrellkevin80 Hi Nina. Thank you for your kind consideration and words. Understanding this moment is what the Buddhas teaching is all about. Sadly, not every one has a penchant for Abhidhamma. The majority of western Buddhits that I know, though, like to read suttas (and certainly some of our Eastern friends too!). If they had line by line Commentary, they might come to understand imnportant points, like the place of concentration, what Right Concentration is, and so on and so forth. They might come to understand the Dhamma, and understand that they don't have to try to focus on objects or necessarily attain exalted jhanas and so on. They might gain respect and admiration for the Commentarial tradition, and seek out more Theravada works with Commentaries to learn from. Without that they will only go down the wrong path. I feel it is really my place to do this. Learning Pali will be a challenge, but it will also be fun, and I have sentient beings in mind. You wrote: ________________________________ Dear Kevin, Op 21-apr-2010, om 5:55 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > When the Sutta Pitika is done, I > suppose I will keep translating. At that point, I will translate the > seven books of the Abhidhamma along with all associated Commentarial > material and post it online as well. But that project won't start > for a long time ------- N:Kh Sujin would say: what about this moment? It is good to do what you can, but looking so far ahead is difficult. Who knows the circumstances that will come up. I noticed that people translate in accordance with their ways of practice. This greatly influences one's translation. Kh Sujin quotes many suttas on a Thai series, called 'radio tapes' (tape Vithayu). One does not have to translate all suttas, but most important is helping people to see that each sutta points to understanding this moment. For instance now she deals with mindfulness of death. Do we find ourselves important when we die? When the Buddha spoke about this subject the purpose was not becoming calm, but it was not being heedless in the development of satipa.t.thaana. Just knowing realities that appear at this moment through the six doors. It is the same with the other Recollections like mindfulness of the body, or Breath. The characteristic of breath is only ruupa-dhamma. It has to be known as such. The aim was not access concentration or jhaana, the aim was learning that realities are not a person, not self. We should never lose sight of this. Also hand in hand with sutta reading should be the Abhidhamma, otherwise we cannot understand the suttas. Each page of the Abhidhamma points to anattaa. So, why not help others with a few suttas, Abhidhamma and Commentary included? One is never finished with Pali, you would need many lives. Ask Scott how he learnt it so quickly. Also, one should compare several translations, not using just one. But most important, understanding better the reality at this moment, by consideration, discussion. Without this we are lost. Nina. Thanks Nina. All the best, Kevin #106996 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning Pali/ translating Sutta Pitika ashkenn2k Dear Kevin pse translate the commentaries and not the suttas as we already have many translation we could base on.? I like to read the commentaries just that there are too little around. ?Commentaries contain many clarfications to the meaning of dhamma and it would be good if there are translation of it. There is already a good yahoo group that is now translating the AN in pali group.? Pse do translate the commentaries as it is of immense value for the future generations.?? Kind regards Ken O #106997 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sankhata dhammas ashkenn2k ? Dear pt by characteristic of the nature of conditioned dhamma which are anatta, anicca and dukkha.?? The understanding of feeling feels is to help to understand that there is no self that feels.? Likewise when one perceive the 32 body parts, one understand there is no owner in the body, the body is devoid of a self. kind regards Ken O > >pt: Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't aware that this is an old argument here. One thing I wanted to ask on this topic - when insight knowledges happen (but before stream-entry) , is the individual characteristic of a dhamma actually understood in the same mind-door process when one of the tilakkhana characteristics is understood, or not? #106998 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and condition ashkenn2k Dear Alex I depart on the point of meditation, why?? because there is really need for development of virture, mindfulness and clear comprehension.? They are the one who would are helpful to the development of the concentration.? without them, concentration cannot reach jhanas.? Also there must be seclusion for doing jhanas Not that simple.? If that is simple, I will have supported the meditators but no, because it is mindfulness and clear comprehension that develops concentration and not the other way round.? Until one has the pre-requiste, then could one pick up a meditation subject There is nothing wrong in meditation is just another conventional action like listening, it is not understanding what is meditation and the factors involved, one cannot accomplish the result of meditation to attain jhanas. kind regards Ken O #106999 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sankhata dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Paul > >In the introduction to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, he writes the following... > >"In the Pali, we can clearly see the connection: the sankharas, the active constructive forces instigated by volition, create and shape conditioned reality, especially the conditioned factors classified into the five aggregates and the six internal sense bases, and this conditioned reality itself consists of sankharas in the passive sense, called in the commentaries sankhata-sankhara. >Further, it is not only this connection that is lost to view, but also the connection to Nibbana. For Nibbana is the asankhata, the unconditioned, which is called thus precisely because it is neither made up by sankharas nor itself a sankhara in either the active or passive sense. So, when the texts are taken up in the Pali we arrive at a clear picture in fine focus: the active sankharas generated by volition perpetually create passive sankharas, the sankhata dhammas or conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates (and, indirectly, of the objective world); and then, through the practice of the Buddha's path, the practitioner arrives at the true knowledge of conditioned phenomena, which disables the generation of active sankharas, putting an end to the constructing of conditioned reality and opening the door to the Deathless, the asankhata, the unconditioned, which is Nibbana, the final liberation from impermanence and suffering." > KO:? Now what B Bodhi is using the passive form as vipaka and active as?volition which leads to bhavana.?? In short when the active become inoperative, the vipaka stops, so end of the round of suffering.?? >This got me wondering... > >We know from the suttas on dependent origination that sankharas are conditioned by ignorance. So if "the sankhata dhammas or conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates" are all fabricated/construc ted/sankhara- ised based upoon an underlying platform of ignorance, then where does that leave us in terms of being able to observe dhammas with panna (wisdom) - in light of the fact a mindstate cannot be simultaneously rooted in wisdom and ignorance? And is it still valid to consider paramattha dhammas other than nibbana as "ultimate" in any way if all sankharas are merely the products of ignorance (avijja)? KO:? All sankharas are merely the product of ignorance should be based as vipaka or when aksuala cittas conditioned arise.? If all are merely product of ignorance then there is no salvation, Buddha could not be enlighted because he is also of?this product. > >Let alone paramattha, can dhammas even be considered in any way to even "exist"? In SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta, we read... > >"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." KO:? This existence is about eternal view of existence and non-existence is the annahilistic view.? Another explanation, when one see the origination of the world, one? discren correctly, one see nama and rupa. these are dhamma that exist, hence the non-existence to the world does not occur.? When one see the cessation of the world, one understand that?nama (except Nibbana) and rupa?as dukkha,? anicca and anatta, this samasara existence is completely abondoned and ceased, thus existence?does not occur. Kind regards Ken O