#107400 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue May 4, 2010 11:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Mike, -------- <. . .> > Mike: Presumably you mean something different by "rolling on" than I do. I would have taken it to mean that they are not affected by anything else, like a wheel rolling down a hill. > ---------- That's how I see it too. Although maybe not "down a hill". That could imply the outside force of gravity. :-) The expression has been used here several times, and I presume it was borrowed from the texts. I think there is a place, for example, where the texts use a simile of a rolling wheel, and say that the part touching the road is like the fleeting existence of dhammas. I suppose the entire rolling wheel might represent the process of conditionality. ------------------- M: > Since there is the entire Book of Relations describing in detail how each dhamma is conditioned by others I must be misinterpreting the expression. ------------------- No, I would say you were right the first time. The presently arisen dhammas *are* independent of others, because the others have all gone. (Being "gone" they can't condition anything.) --------------------------- M: > In any case, since dhammas are said to rise and fall extremely rapidly, is "rolling on" really a helpful description? --------------------------- I agree, when you look at it that way, it's not a perfect simile. --------------------------------- M: > The entire "process" might be considered to be "rolling on", with no self, just a complicated sequence of conditioned dhammas giving rise to the rather complex manifestations of rupas, such as typing on this keyboard... --------------------------------- I am sure some people find it helpful to look at it that way, but I don't. As soon as a "sequence" of dhammas is mentioned I start to see a self by another name. I agree that while we are (conventionally speaking) "typing on this keyboard" there are (in reality) only the presently arisen namas and rupas. Is that how you see it? Ken H #107401 From: "Mike" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Hi Mike, > > -------- > <. . .> > > Mike: Presumably you mean something different by "rolling on" than I do. I would have taken it to mean that they are not affected by anything else, like a wheel rolling down a hill. > > ---------- > > KH: That's how I see it too. Although maybe not "down a hill". That could imply the outside force of gravity. :-) > > KH: The expression has been used here several times, and I presume it was borrowed from the texts. I think there is a place, for example, where the texts use a simile of a rolling wheel, and say that the part touching the road is like the fleeting existence of dhammas. Mike: Google doesn't seem to find any reference to "Dhammas Rolling On" except on DSG. > > KH: I suppose the entire rolling wheel might represent the process of conditionality. > > ------------------- > M: > Since there is the entire Book of Relations describing in detail how each dhamma is conditioned by others I must be misinterpreting the expression. > ------------------- > > KH: No, I would say you were right the first time. The presently arisen dhammas *are* independent of others, because the others have all gone. (Being "gone" they can't condition anything.) Mike: Then how do you explain the Book of Relations and the summaries in the Abhidhammatha Sangaha? ------------------------ CMA Page 305: VII.13 A.Anaruddha: In six ways mind is a condition for mind: Consciousness and mental factors that immediately cease are a condition for present consciousness and mental factors by way of proximity, contiguity, absence, and disappearance. Preceding javanas are a condition for subsequent javanas by way of repetition. Conascent consciousness and mental factors are a condition for one another by way of association. [and so on for quite a few paragraphs...] http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+compre\ hensive+manual+of+abhidhamma&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=rlOVSZfeNJDMlQTussnmCQ#v=onepage&q&\ f=false ---------------------- > --------------------------- > M: > In any case, since dhammas are said to rise and fall extremely rapidly, is "rolling on" really a helpful description? > --------------------------- > > KH: I agree, when you look at it that way, it's not a perfect simile. > > --------------------------------- > M: > The entire "process" might be considered to be "rolling on", with no self, just a complicated sequence of conditioned dhammas giving rise to the rather complex manifestations of rupas, such as typing on this keyboard... > --------------------------------- > > KH: I am sure some people find it helpful to look at it that way, but I don't. As soon as a "sequence" of dhammas is mentioned I start to see a self by another name. Mike: If there isn't a sequence how can there be conditionality? > > KH: I agree that while we are (conventionally speaking) "typing on this keyboard" there are (in reality) only the presently arisen namas and rupas. Is that how you see it? Mike: Yes, and as I understand it, those namas and rupas arise due to conditions set by those that arose in the past. Due to ignorance, these processes are identified as a self, etc. Mike #107402 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 4, 2010 11:08 pm Subject: How not to prolong Suffering? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How not to Continue and Prolong Suffering? The Blessed Buddha once said: Friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is in this world as permanent, as lasting, as happiness, as self, as healthy, as secure, they all thereby only stimulate craving! By stimulating craving they long, thirsts and hankers, thereby inducing production of sense desires, production of defilements, production of intentions, hopes, wishes and planning, and production of these 5 clusters of clinging! By nurturing uptake of such accumulation of fuel for becoming, fuel for existence, they indeed provoke continuation! Thus provoking prolongation, they are neither freed from birth, nor from decay & ageing, nor are they freed from death! They are therefore not released from sorrow, from depression, from despair, from misery, from pain, from frustration, from discontent, nor from hopelessness. I tell you: They are not freed from neither the present, nor from any future suffering! But friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is here in this world as impermanent, as transient, as suffering, as no-self, as a disease, as danger, as fearful, as an empty terror, they thereby all reduce craving. After having gradually eliminated all craving, I tell you: They are thereby freed from all Suffering... See also: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_5_Clusters_of_Clinging.htm Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 109-112 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri #107403 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 4:10 am Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Mike, ------- <. . .> KH: > >The presently arisen dhammas *are* independent of others, because the others have all gone. (Being "gone" they can't condition anything.) Mike: > Then how do you explain the Book of Relations and the summaries in the Abhidhammatha Sangaha? CMA Page 305: VII.13 A.Anaruddha: In six ways mind is a condition for mind: Consciousness and mental factors that immediately cease are a <. . .> ------- All of that has to be understood in light of the irrefutable, commonsense fact that 'the past has ceased to exist, and the future has never existed. Only the present reality exists.' It's the same in conventional reality as in ultimate reality; past activities no longer exist but their effects have been carried on to the present by every subsequent moment. ------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > As soon as a "sequence" of dhammas is mentioned I start to see a self by another name. Mike: > If there isn't a sequence how can there be conditionality? ------------------------- A sequence doesn't have absolute existence, does it? Sequences are just concepts of the ways in which cittas follow other cittas. They are not realities. ---------------------------------- <. . .> Mike: > Yes, and as I understand it, those namas and rupas arise due to conditions set by those that arose in the past. Due to ignorance, these processes are identified as a self, etc. ----------------------------------- Yes, there seem to be observable process, and they do strengthen our belief in a permanent self. In fact, the real processes are unknowable. A person might think the pain in his stubbed toe (for example) is due to his walking carelessly, but that is just thinking. Only a Buddha can trace the cause of any given vipakka, and usually it goes back to a kamma from the long-distant past. Ken H #107404 From: "Mike" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 5:49 am Subject: Re: Little selves? mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > ------- > <. . .> > KH: > >The presently arisen > dhammas *are* independent of others, because the others have all gone. (Being "gone" they can't condition anything.) > > Mike: > Then how do you explain the Book of Relations and the summaries in the Abhidhammatha Sangaha? > > > CMA Page 305: VII.13 > A.Anaruddha: In six ways mind is a condition for mind: > Consciousness and mental factors that immediately cease are a > <. . .> > ------- > > KH: All of that has to be understood in light of the irrefutable, commonsense fact that 'the past has ceased to exist, and the future has never existed. Only the present reality exists.' Mike: Of course. But that has no relevance to the point that there is a complicated causal process going on. Dhammas arise and affect the subsequent and/or concurrent dhammas (then vanish). So each of those dhammas is not JUST some little independent entity that just happens to pop up out of nowhere. It arises BECAUSE OF previous dhammas. Mike: Photons comes in through a camera lens and cause charges to accumulate up on the CCD, and hence create an image. Just because the photons have ceased to exist doesn't mean that they didn't play a vital causal role in creating the image. Mike: Your approach to this sounds to me to be arguing that most of the Abhidhamma, and perhaps most of the Tipitika, is not worth reading. All we have to know is that dhammas rapidly rise and fall... Mike #107405 From: "sarah" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 6:36 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Hi Dieter & all, Another slow reply... 3106775 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > just jumping in for a bit of conclusion from my point of view .. > > > you wrote: So what is samatha? Is there samatha now? > > > D: when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness called samatha, tranquillity . ... S: You've received various 'lively' comments in response:-) For me, calm or samatha is passaddhi cetasika. This 'calm' mental factor arises with all wholesome cittas and falls away with them. So at moments of dana, sila or bhavana, there is calm. At such moments of calm, just as at all moments of non-calm, cetana cetasika (volition)arises. It never rests. If you are referring to vitakka cetasika, this also arises with almost all wholesome cittas - the exceptions being certain jhana cittas. So even at moments of dana or bhavana now, volition doesn't rest! What we take for calm or peace of mind is usually, I find, the pleasant feeling which arises with attachment, so the development of understanding which knows and becomes detached from these different mental states is very important. I'll be glad to read any more of your comments. I was glad to read your 'spirited' discussion with Ken H and others:-)) Metta Sarah ======== #107406 From: "sarah" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 6:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes sarahprocter... Dear Vince, Robin & all, #106790 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > also I would be very glad to read about what metta is. In these years > I have not found in Buddhism a deep explanation of the metta process > and the elements involved in its arising. .... S: Metta is adosa cetasika. Adosa cetasika arises with all wholesome cittas, but it is only metta when the object is a sentient being/beings. In other words, whenever there is wholesome consciousness and the object is a being, metta arises. At those momens it has the welfare of the other at heart and there is no attachment arising and no thought of oneself. The feeling can never be unpleasant either - adosa is the opposite of dosa. You can find lots and lots of detail and relevant quotes in "useful posts" under "metta" in the files section. Metta Sarah ======== #107407 From: "sarah" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 6:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: kusala for kusala sake sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > L: The third one is not for anyone, this is forgeting persons and > things. This is kusala development only for the sake of understanding. No persons > and things. We think a lot of me, benefits for me, and other people, > benefits for them. But when we forget this, then this is practicing kusala for > the sake of the dhamma. > > > > This is development of kusala by right understanding. > > > > you dont need to practicing for yourself, or practice for other people. > Just do it for the sake of the dhamma. No concepts than. > ... > S: Very nicely put, Lukas. > ===================================== >H: Interestingly, there is a similar (but theistically formulated) notion > in Judaism (and I would suppose in Christianity) that speaks of three > sorts of actions: those that are for one's own sake, those for the sake of > others, and (here it comes), those "for the sake of heaven". That third > category just refers to actions that are inherently right and require no extrinsic > motive. They amount to kusala for kusala's sake, and, IMO, are the highest > form of kusala and bring with them, even though there be no intention in > that direction, a plethora of good effect. .... S: Thank you for sharing this! Interesting. Of course, you naturally interpret "for the sake of heaven' as being "kusala for kusala's sake" and we agree this is the highest form of kusala "even though there be no intention in that direction". Others may interpret "heaven" a little differently:-) Metta Sarah ======== #107408 From: Vince Date: Wed May 5, 2010 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes cerovzt@... sarah wrote: > S: Metta is adosa cetasika. Adosa cetasika arises with all > wholesome cittas, but it is only metta when the object is a sentient being/beings. > In other words, whenever there is wholesome consciousness and the > object is a being, metta arises. At those momens it has the welfare > of the other at heart and there is no attachment arising and no > thought of oneself. The feeling can never be unpleasant either - adosa is the opposite of dosa. thanks Sarah. Do you think in karuna case it would be the same development? My doubt is, in the case of metta maybe there is panna and knowledge of absence of individual substance while in the case of karuna maybe is not. I'm not sure. best, Vince. #107409 From: "sarah" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 7:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, #106077 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: >...So I always in favour of the vipassana bhavana but I cannot discount those who wish to practise samantha.... It's not a matter of wishing to practice or being in favour or a) or b) or selecting a), b) or anything else. As some of us have been stressing, this idea of deciding on dry insight or jhana or anything else, suggests a lack of understanding of the essence of the Buddha's Teachings. You'll ask for textual support, so let's go back to the basics again: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.mend.html "Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.' "Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since feeling is not-self, therefore feeling leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus.' "Perception, O monks, is not-self; if perception were self, then perception would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since perception is not-self, therefore, perception leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus.' "Mental formations, O monks, are not-self; if mental formations were self, then mental formations would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my perception be thus, may my mental formations not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since mental formations are not-self, therefore, mental formations lead to affliction and it does not obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my mental formations be thus, may my mental formations not be thus.' "Consciousness, O monks, is not-self; if consciousness were self, then consciousness would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since consciousness is not-self, therefore, consciousness leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus.' .... S: We don't know whether at the next moment seeing will arise, hearing, bodily experience, a citta with calm, a moment of right understanding of a reality or anything else. This is why the only path is that of detachment, no selection of any dhammas to arise or be experienced at all. There's no choice at all. Metta Sarah ======== #107410 From: "sarah" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 7:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > thanks Sarah. Do you think in karuna case it would be the same development? ... S: Karuna (compassion) only arises with those same wholesome cittas when the suffering of sentient beings is the object. For example, if someone is sick or in difficulty, there may be karuna, but seldom when they are well and happy. Of course, it's easy to take our pity or sorrow for being karuna. Again, it never arises with unpleasant feeling or aversion. We can see from the above that metta is likely to arise a lot more commonly than karuna because whenever we think about people or other beings, metta can arise. ... > > My doubt is, in the case of metta maybe there is panna and knowledge > of absence of individual substance while in the case of karuna maybe > is not. I'm not sure. ... S: Both metta and karuna can arise with or without panna. However, the panna that arises at the moments of metta and karuna doesn't experience anatta, because the object is the concept of sentient beings, not a reality. After these cittas with metta and karuna have fallen away, there can be panna arising which understands the metta, karuna or any other dhamma appearing as anatta, however. As some of us have been stressing, the object of satipatthana has to be a paramattha dhamma (a reality), not a concept. Pls let me know if this is not clear. It's a little complicated! Metta Sarah ====== #107411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 5, 2010 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? nilovg Dear Han, Op 4-mei-2010, om 12:55 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Thus, if there is no converging point of appamaada for the kusala > dhammas, all of them will fall away like the rafters will fall away > if there is no roof peak (kuu.taagaara) for them to converge. > > Furthermore, it is said that "According to the Commentary, > appamaada embraces all the meanings of the words of the Buddha in > the Tipi.taka." [Source: The Dhammapada: Verses and Stories, > published by Burma Pi.taka Association. 1986. page 9] > > And, as I had said before, appamaada was the last word used by the > Buddha in his exhortation just before his mahaaparinibbana. -------- N: Thank you very much for the good reminders. I like the texts you quoted. And this is a strong one: "According to the Commentary, appamaada embraces all the meanings of the words of the Buddha in the Tipi.taka." Much appreciated, Nina. #107412 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 5, 2010 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 4-mei-2010, om 19:24 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for this very useful series. There is so much forgetfulness > in life. -------- N: I try to be very gentle and do not give many details in this series. People who like to study more can read books. Next will be Ruupa, and I remember your problems with my book on ruupas. I will not give too many details in this series. If you like you could discuss what you find too much. It is understandable that people have the feeling to get drowned. --------- > L: Please tell me about is sati. sati in samatha is different than > sati in vipassana? ------ N: Different objects, different goals. The kusala citta with sati in samatha contemplates meditation subjects with the aim to become calm, fee of the hindrances. Sati in vipassanaa is mindful of a naama or ruupa appearing at the present moment. The aim is seeing realities as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. ------- Nina. #107413 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 9:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? szmicio Dear Han, > In AN 10.15 Appamaada Sutta, > "Monks, among all living beings; be they footless or two-footed, with four feet or many feet, with form or formless, percipient, non-percipient or neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient; the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all." (Bhikkhu Bodhi) > > "Yaavataa bhikkhave sattaa apadaa vaa dvipadaa vaa catuppadaa vaa bahuppadaa vaa ruupino vaa aruupino vaa sa~n~nino vaa asa~n~nino vaa nevasa~n~ninaasa~n~nino vaa, tathaagato teas.m aggamakkhaayati araha.m sammaasabbuddho. Evameva kho bhikkhave ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati." > > Han: All wholesome states (sabbe kusala dhamma) are many. For practical purposes, a Burmese Sayadaw once said that the fourteen entities that constitute the thirty-seven requisites of enlightenment (Bodhipakkhiya dhammas) are all rooted in diligence (appamaadamuulakaa), converge upon diligence (appamaadasamosara.naa), and diligence is reckoned the best of them all (appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati). The fourteen entities are one citta, and thirteen cetasikas, namely, viriya, sati, pa~n~naa, ekaggataa, saddhaa, vitakka (samma sankappa), passaddhi, piiti, tatramajjhattataa, chanda, sammaa vaacaa, sammaa kammanta, sammaa aajiiva. (The fourteen entities are mentioned on page 283 of CMA). L: Can we translate appamada as non-forgetfulness instead of diligance? Cause diligance seems more like viriyia. And I think appamada is non-forgetfulness. Like when reading or hearing Dhamma, there can be few moments of appamada, no forgetfulness, non-forgetfulness of nama and ruupa or non-forgetfulness of what is kusala? Here appamada refers to sati of all kusala states? In many suttas Buddha refers to sati as the reality that is aware of its object as mentioned in satipatthana sutta. Does appamada means non-forgetfulness that arises with all kusala states? For example: If i develop dana and there is kusala-citta at such moments (dvi-hetuka kusala citta) than we can say it is appamada? Best wishes Lukas #107414 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 9:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). szmicio Dear Nina, > N: I try to be very gentle and do not give many details in this > series. People who like to study more can read books. > Next will be Ruupa, and I remember your problems with my book on > ruupas. I will not give too many details in this series. If you like > you could discuss what you find too much. It is understandable that > people have the feeling to get drowned. L: Of course. But we can never know what is better. > --------- > > L: Please tell me about is sati. sati in samatha is different than > > sati in vipassana? > ------ > N: Different objects, different goals. > The kusala citta with sati in samatha contemplates meditation > subjects with the aim to become calm, fee of the hindrances. > Sati in vipassanaa is mindful of a naama or ruupa appearing at the > present moment. The aim is seeing realities as impermanent, dukkha, > anattaa. L: What kind of sati Buddha refers to in Satipatthana Sutta? Best Sutta Lukas #107415 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 5, 2010 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kusala for kusala sake upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/5/2010 2:59:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Thank you for sharing this! Interesting. Of course, you naturally interpret "for the sake of heaven' as being "kusala for kusala's sake" and we agree this is the highest form of kusala "even though there be no intention in that direction". Others may interpret "heaven" a little differently:-) ============================= If one reads Judaic commentarial material, in this context that IS the meaning. And perhaps you'll find this interesting: Judaism is *fundamentally* a commentarial religion. Though the foundation is what Christians call the "Old Testament," the major structure of theory and practice is the mishnah, talmud, and midrash, plus the Zohar & other books of Jewish mysticism, and mussar, i.e., methods of mental and moral cultivation very similar to Buddhist teachings, and all of which amounts to commentary and exegesis, often going FAR afield from the original "Hebrew Bible". In Judaism, the religion has its ultimate basis in the Tanach (the tripartite teaching consisting of Torah (i.e., the 5 books of Moses), Nevi'im (i.e. Prophets), and Ketuvim (i.e., the Writings) - what one might call the Hebrew "Tipitaka." But that is merely the basis, and on its own does NOT constitute the religion proper. The religion proper consists of the teachings of "the elders," as I listed in the first paragraph. Moreover, the midrash, or embellishing exegesis, extends into the present and future, being ongoing and unending, and constitutes the "life force" of the religion. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107416 From: han tun Date: Wed May 5, 2010 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Lukas, > Lukas: Can we translate appamada as non-forgetfulness instead of diligance? Cause diligance seems more like viriyia. And I think appamada is non-forgetfulness. Like when reading or hearing Dhamma, there can be few moments of appamada, no forgetfulness, non-forgetfulness of nama and ruupa or non-forgetfulness of what is kusala? Here appamada refers to sati of all kusala states? In many suttas Buddha refers to sati as the reality that is aware of its object as mentioned in satipatthana sutta. Does appamada means non-forgetfulness that arises with all kusala states? For example: If i develop dana and there is kusala-citta at such moments (dvi-hetuka kusala citta) than we can say it is appamada? -------------------- Han: I think when you wrote this message you had not yet read my latest message to Nina. Please click on the following and read it first. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/107397 Now, after reading my above post, you will get my point that I cannot find a suitable English word for appamaada. For that matter, I cannot find a suitable word in Burmese also. Therefore, in Burma, we say appamaada as appamaada without translating it into Burmese. Appamaada is very, very wide, almost beyond description. Even Nina said that it is a strong one when I quoted a passage: "According to the Commentary, appamaada embraces all the meanings of the words of the Buddha in the Tipi.taka." I would like you to read AN 10.15 Appamaada Sutta where the Buddha gave ten comparisons for appamaada. It is not available on line at Accesstoinsight. The translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi is on page 240 of Numerical Discourses of the Buddha by Bhikkhu Bodhi. I cannot type it all. So I give you the following translation available at Sri Lanka web-site. 5. Appam?dasutta? Diligence 15. Bhikkhus, of all beings who have no feet, two feet, four feet, many feet, who are material, immaterial, perceptive, not perceptive or neither perceptive nor non-perceptive, the Thus Gone One, worthy and rightfully enlightened is the foremost. In the same manner it is said, all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as all foot prints of moving things get included in the foot print of the elephant and it is the biggest in size. In the same manner it is said, all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as all beams of a gabled house go to the top, end and meet at the top and of them, the one at the top is the foremost. In the same manner all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as of all scents the dark fragrant sandal wood is the foremost; in the same manner, all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as of all heartwood scents, the red sandal wood is the foremost; in the same manner it is said, all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as of all scents of flowers, the scent of the jasmine is foremost. In the same manner, it is said, all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as for all junior kings the universal monarch is the foremost. In the same manner, it is said all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as the moon is foremost for the constellation of stars and their radiance is not worth one sixteenth to the radiance of the moon. In the same manner, it is said all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as in Summer when it had rained and the sky is clear the sun rises, burning and giving light and dispels all signs of darkness. In the same manner, it is said all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. Bhikkhus, just as all great rivers such as the Ganges, Yamuna, Acirawathie, Sarabhu and Mahi, flow into the ocean, for them the ocean is the foremost. In the same manner, it is said all meritorious things originate and come together in diligence, and diligence is foremost, for all meritorius things. ---------- Please forget about the translation of the word appamaada, and try to get the deeper meaning of appamaada as expounded by the Buddha in the above sutta. Kind regards, Han #107417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 5, 2010 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 5-mei-2010, om 11:33 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What kind of sati Buddha refers to in Satipatthana Sutta? ------- N: I just heard this morning: That is it. We learn from the satipa.t.thaanasutta to be aware of whatever appears in daily life and detach from the idea of self. We read about breathing, and there are the elements of solidity, heat or motion appearing, also while breathing. Or we consider the parts of the body, it is so daily. These are only elements, non-self. -------- Nina. #107418 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? szmicio Dear Han, Thanks for this very detailed explanation. I like to hear more on appamaada. I will quote the begining to the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, there is few important words but no appamada: 10. Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta.m 105. Eva.m me suta.m – eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kuruusu viharati kammaasadhamma.m naama kuruuna.m nigamo. Tatra kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi – ‘‘bhikkhavo’’ti. ‘‘Bhadante’’ti te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosu.m. Bhagavaa etadavoca – Uddeso 106. ‘‘Ekaayano aya.m, bhikkhave, maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa, sokaparidevaana.m [pariddavaana.m (sii. pii.)] samatikkamaaya, dukkhadomanassaana.m attha"ngamaaya, ~naayassa adhigamaaya, nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, yadida.m cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa. ‘‘Katame cattaaro? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m; vedanaasu vedanaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m; citte cittaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m; dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m. aatapii, sampajaano, satimaa, so diligent, with right understanding, and aware. How appamada refers to it? Best wishes Lukas > Han: Alright, Nina, I will tell you what appamaada means to me. > > You had written: [As to being more significant, here I hesitate. When we see sati in the whole context of all the sobhana cetasikas as classified in the Abhidhamma and in the context of satipa.t.thaana, it is very significant. We should not see it as being isolated. In the context of satipa.t.thaana, it arises with right understanding of realities.] > > Now, if there is pamaada, and if there is no appamaada, there will be no sati and no satipa.t.thaana. > > In Dhammapada Verse 21, it says: > "Appamaado amatapada.m, pamaado maccuno pada.m" > "Appamaada is the way to the Deathless, pamaaada is the way to Death." > [By the way, I cannot find a suitable English word for appamaada, and so I use it in Pali.] > > Now, if there is pamaada, and if there is no appamaada, it is not me (Han Tun) who dies. > But all the kusala dhammas die. > > If there is pamaada, and if there is no appamaada, the daana is dead, siila is dead, bhaavanaa is dead, sati and samaadhi are dead, and pa~n~naa is dead. In short, all kusala dhammas are dead. > > Because, as the Buddha had said: "sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati" if there is no appamaada, there will be no muula for the kusala dhammas to base upon, and there will be no converging point [samosara.naa] for the kusala dhammas. [For the importance of converging point please read on.] > > In AN 10.15 Appamaada Sutta (which I had quoted) the Buddha gave ten examples of appamaada. One of them is as follows: > "Just as all the rafters of a peaked house flow towards the roof peak, slope towards the roof peak, converge upon the roof peak, and the roof peak is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all." (Bhikkhu Bodhi) > > "Seyyathaapi bhikkhave kuu.taagaarassa yaa kaaci gopaanasiyo sabbaa taa kuu.ta"ngamaa kuu.taninnaa kuu.tasamosara.naa, kuu.to taasa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva kho bhikkhave ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati". > > Thus, if there is no converging point of appamaada for the kusala dhammas, all of them will fall away like the rafters will fall away if there is no roof peak (kuu.taagaara) for them to converge. > > Furthermore, it is said that "According to the Commentary, appamaada embraces all the meanings of the words of the Buddha in the Tipi.taka." [Source: The Dhammapada: Verses and Stories, published by Burma Pi.taka Association. 1986. page 9] > > And, as I had said before, appamaada was the last word used by the Buddha in his exhortation just before his mahaaparinibbana. > > Therefore, I strongly believe that appamaada is the most significant of all kusala dhammas (appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati). > > Respectfully, > Han > #107419 From: "connie" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 5:40 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (322 = 25-26) nichiconn Dear Friends, this section of DN33 brings us to the end of the Fives. CSCD 322. < Date: Wed May 5, 2010 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Mike --------- <. . .> M: > But that has no relevance to the point that there is a complicated causal process going on. Dhammas arise and affect the subsequent and/or concurrent dhammas (then vanish). So each of those dhammas is not JUST some little independent entity that just happens to pop up out of nowhere. It arises BECAUSE OF previous dhammas. ----------- It is still just a dhamma. If it did pop up out of nowhere it might be interesting. There might be an element of mystery and intrigue. But it is just a conditioned dhamma, and there is nothing more banal, or less intriguing, than that. ----------------- <. . > M: > Your approach to this sounds to me to be arguing that most of the Abhidhamma, and perhaps most of the Tipitika, is not worth reading. All we have to know is that dhammas rapidly rise and fall... ----------------- I suppose "dhammas rapidly rise and fall" does sum up all we need to know. But it's not easy, is it? It's hard enough at the beginning - theoretical - level. Imagine how hard it would be to know from direct experience. Ken H #107421 From: "connie" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 8:43 pm Subject: Sangiiti sutta series. nichiconn thanks, nina. welcome, if you like, kevin, to start sharpening your commentarial reading ax (especially as long as the rusting cart still holds it's own and more -) not that I'm volunteering anyone, mind you ;. but the 2nd recital goes thru the sevens. peace, connie re: #107329 #107422 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 9:08 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). szmicio Dear Nina > > What kind of sati Buddha refers to in Satipatthana Sutta? > ------- > N: I just heard this morning: at a time through one of the six doors, how can one know the > characteristic of sati?> > That is it. We learn from the satipa.t.thaanasutta to be aware of > whatever appears in daily life and detach from the idea of self. We > read about breathing, and there are the elements of solidity, heat or > motion appearing, also while breathing. Or we consider the parts of > the body, it is so daily. These are only elements, non-self. L: This is very helpful. Thanks. Best wishes Lukas #107423 From: han tun Date: Wed May 5, 2010 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Lukas, Lukas: I like to hear more on appamaada. Han: I will present the explanation of the Appamaada Sutta by a Burmese Sayadaw when I am more physically fit. ---------- Lukas: I will quote the begining to the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, there is few important words but no appamada: < skip > aatapii, sampajaano, satimaa, so diligent, with right understanding, and aware. How appamada refers to it? Han: I will have to answer like I have responded to Nina. If there is no appamaada, there will be no aatapii, no sampajaano, and no satimaa, Why so? Because, as the Buddha had said in AN 10.15, whatever kusala dhammas there are, they are all rooted in appamaada (sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa). converge upon appamaada (appamaadasamosara.naa), if there is no appamaada, the aatapii, sampajaano, and satimaa will have no roots to base upon or to establish, and they will not be converging to have a synergic effect of unification at the right moment. It may be difficult to accept this point. But I cannot explain it any further. Kind regards, Han #107424 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 5, 2010 9:56 pm Subject: The 5 minor mental chains! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: There are these 5 Minor mental chains (Samyojana): The Blessed Buddha once emphasized: Bhikkhus, there are these five Lower mental chains. What five? 1: The mental chain of belief in 'my same identity' (sakk aya-ditthi) 2: The mental chain of skeptical doubt (vicikicch a) 3: The mental chain of clinging to rule & Ritual (s ilabbata-paramasa) 4: The mental chain of lust for sensuality (k ama-raga) 5: The mental chain of anger & ill will (vy apada) There exist these 5 Lower mental chains! The Noble 8-fold Way should be developed for the direct experience of these five minor mental chains, for the full understanding and elimination of them, and for their final overcoming, destruction and leaving all behind! This Noble 8-fold Way is developed for the breaking asunder of these five minor mental chains!!! Explanation: 1: Is belief in "my identity" construing an internal fake ?stable same entity?. 2: Is sceptical doubt about the perfection of Buddha?s self-enlightenment. 3: Is blind superstition in rules & rituals projecting into them false efficacy. 4: Lust for sensing is addiction to all seen, heard, sensed, and cognized. 5: Ill will is all hate & derivatives such as anger, aversion, and irritation. These Chains bind beings to birth in the 6 lower worlds , where all beings are dominated by sense-desire ! Mental chains are not visible, yet quite real, & harder than any steel! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:61] section 45: The Way. 179: The 5 Lower mental chains... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107425 From: Vince Date: Thu May 6, 2010 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: Both metta and karuna can arise with or without panna. However, > the panna that arises at the moments of metta and karuna doesn't > experience anatta, because the object is the concept of sentient > beings, not a reality. but from what I read in definitions, it seems karuna is closer to virtue. So I wonder if both are quite different in the development. In example, think in somebody who push another person just before he is being rolled by a car. Such instant movement implies losing the own live, so it is purely spontaneous without being mediatized by the intellect. It only can happens because in that same moment there is an instant re-knowledge of the insubstantiality of individuals. It cannot be karuna but panna. > After these cittas with metta and karuna have fallen away, there > can be panna arising which understands the metta, karuna or any > other dhamma appearing as anatta, however. but if we look the previous case, there is not possibility of a later reflection. So I doubt it. Normally we think in that way but I think we mix both things. From what I read, karuna is what arises through an appropriation of the object while metta lacks of that apopropiation. Many definition of metta give us words as "benevolent love", "undifferentiated love", etc... In fact, I seems these definitions try to catch the experience of universal friendliness associated with living the truth. So I wonder if metta inhabit anatta while there is becoming but karuna is a good kammic action and effort. > As some of us have been stressing, the object of satipatthana has > to be a paramattha dhamma (a reality), not a concept. but also we can take nibbana as the object, Don't you agree? > Pls let me know if this is not clear. It's a little complicated! yes, it is. Thanks for your thoughts, :) best. Vince. #107426 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 1:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Howard (107357) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > I view the pre-occurrence or co-occurrence of suspension of hindrances > to be necessary, and, moreover, I view the continuing weakening of the > hindrances to be requisite. They aren't called "hindrances" for no reason! ;-) > The weakening and repeated suspension of the hindrances is needed to > cultivate the mind, and I think the Buddha is rather clear on this. > =============== Sorry to persist with this, but I think it's important to clarify this if our discussion is to continue. Are you saying that there can be no development of awareness as described in the Satipatthaana Sutta, even at the beginning level, unless there has been the temporary suppression of hindrances occasioned by jhana citta? If the 'suspension of the hindrances' that is necessary for the development of awareness at the beginning level can be other than by attainment of jhana, how may that suspension be achieved, according to your reading of the texts? > =============== > In the Avarana Sutta the Buddha refers to > "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken > discernment." Note: They OVERWHELM awareness! > =============== Of course, there can be no awareness at the same moment as there is akusala. But to my understanding, there can be awareness arising in amongst akusala, that is to say, awareness of immediately past moments of akusala. At such moments, awareness is not overwhelmed by akusala. > =============== > There is also the following pointingout the suspension of te > hindrances as requisite for the ending of he effluents: "When gold is debased by > these five impurities, it is not pliant, malleable, or luminous. ... [_§64_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#passage-\ 64) ] one turns one's mind to > know & realize, one can witness them for oneself whenever there is an > opening... ?" AN 5.23 > =============== I commented on this passage in reply to an earlier post of yours raising the same sutta passage (different translation). I said then that I do not read this passage as necessarily referring to freedom from the hindrances that is the result of suppression by jhana citta, given that in the texts, 'the mind' is a momentary phenomenon and so is the idea of the mind being freed of akusala. I also pointed out that what it says in the passage is that when the mind is not freed of the hindrances it cannot *concentrate well* upon the eradication of the taints, and that this does not equate to saying that such concentration is impossible. (I thought you had agreed with this observation. No? - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/107341) Jon #107427 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 2:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? jonoabb Hi KenO (107367) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > ... > KO: Suttas also full of quotes of concepts as development :-). > =============== To my understanding, the sutta passages you refer to are instances of dhammas being described in terms of conventional objects. > =============== > KO: could you care to quote me which text that say concepts cannot be for the understanding of the three characteristics in mundane level :-) > =============== As I indicated in my message to pt, I doubt there's a direct quote in the Tipitaka specifically negating concepts as object of insight development, or as exhibiting the 3 characteristics. It's a matter of inference to be drawn from what's said (and what's not said) in the suttas. As far as I know, in the suttas references to the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta invariably relate to the characteristics of *dhammas* only. Jon #107428 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 2:37 am Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) jonoabb Hi Alex (107372) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Bahiya may have had Jhana or jhana like attainments prior to meeting the Buddha. ... > > Reading from the sutta, he also had very very strong urgency to see the Buddha, a lot of faith! So all these things combined, plus meeting the Buddha (a super motivational experience itself) was enough, FOR HIM, to become an Arahant within few minutes. All Bahiya needed was a proper personalized instruction by the Buddha and very ardent application of it. The rest, he may have completed to required degree. > =============== So I think you are saying that, as you understand it, jhana is required for *all* individuals, although that jhana may not need to arise at the time of the development of insight. Have I understood you correctly? > =============== > The patisambhidamagga suggest that satipatthana is lokuttara. > =============== I thought we were discussing the prerequisites for the development of mundane satipatthana, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta. > =============== > > There can be kusala moments (including insight) in among the >akusala moments. > > But for how long and are those "billionth of a second" kusala moments significantly count compared to many more unwholesome tendencies? > =============== The question of the relative length and strength of the different kinds of kusala and akusala cittas is an important one. It is explained in the texts that a fingersnap of awareness is kusala of an extremely high degree. Jon #107429 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 5, 2010 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/5/2010 9:54:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107357) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > I view the pre-occurrence or co-occurrence of suspension of hindrances > to be necessary, and, moreover, I view the continuing weakening of the > hindrances to be requisite. They aren't called "hindrances" for no reason! ;-) > The weakening and repeated suspension of the hindrances is needed to > cultivate the mind, and I think the Buddha is rather clear on this. > =============== Sorry to persist with this, but I think it's important to clarify this if our discussion is to continue. Are you saying that there can be no development of awareness as described in the Satipatthaana Sutta, even at the beginning level, unless there has been the temporary suppression of hindrances occasioned by jhana citta? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jon, I believe I've now posted twice as to my position on this. I'd really prefer not engaging in attempts at further explanation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- If the 'suspension of the hindrances' that is necessary for the development of awareness at the beginning level can be other than by attainment of jhana, how may that suspension be achieved, according to your reading of the texts? > =============== > In the Avarana Sutta the Buddha refers to > "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken > discernment." Note: They OVERWHELM awareness! > =============== Of course, there can be no awareness at the same moment as there is akusala. But to my understanding, there can be awareness arising in amongst akusala, that is to say, awareness of immediately past moments of akusala. At such moments, awareness is not overwhelmed by akusala. ------------------------------------------------------------- The hindrances would be in abeyance at that moment. --------------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > There is also the following pointingout the suspension of te > hindrances as requisite for the ending of he effluents: "When gold is debased by > these five impurities, it is not pliant, malleable, or luminous. ... [_§64_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#passage-\ 64) ] one turns one's mind to > know & realize, one can witness them for oneself whenever there is an > opening... â€" AN 5.23 > =============== I commented on this passage in reply to an earlier post of yours raising the same sutta passage (different translation). I said then that I do not read this passage as necessarily referring to freedom from the hindrances that is the result of suppression by jhana citta, given that in the texts, 'the mind' is a momentary phenomenon and so is the idea of the mind being freed of akusala. --------------------------------------------------------------- Well, Jon, we just don't see this matter similarly. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------- I also pointed out that what it says in the passage is that when the mind is not freed of the hindrances it cannot *concentrate well* upon the eradication of the taints, and that this does not equate to saying that such concentration is impossible. (I thought you had agreed with this observation. No? - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/107341) -------------------------------------------------------------- Beats me! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107430 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 5:47 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 szmicio Dear Sarah, Thanks for huge support. Let me add something. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.mend.html > "Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.' > > "Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since feeling is not-self, therefore feeling leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus.' > > "Perception, O monks, is not-self; if perception were self, then perception would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since perception is not-self, therefore, perception leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus.' > > "Mental formations, O monks, are not-self; if mental formations were self, then mental formations would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my perception be thus, may my mental formations not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since mental formations are not-self, therefore, mental formations lead to affliction and it does not obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my mental formations be thus, may my mental formations not be thus.' > > "Consciousness, O monks, is not-self; if consciousness were self, then consciousness would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since consciousness is not-self, therefore, consciousness leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus.' > .... > > S: We don't know whether at the next moment seeing will arise, hearing, bodily experience, a citta with calm, a moment of right understanding of a reality or anything else. This is why the only path is that of detachment, no selection of any dhammas to arise or be experienced at all. There's no choice at all. L: As Connie had quoted in Sangiiti series: < Date: Thu May 6, 2010 6:01 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + szmicio Dear Howard and Jon, > Sorry to persist with this, but I think it's important to clarify this if our discussion is to continue. > > Are you saying that there can be no development of awareness as described in the Satipatthaana Sutta, even at the beginning level, unless there has been the temporary suppression of hindrances occasioned by jhana citta? > > If the 'suspension of the hindrances' that is necessary for the development of awareness at the beginning level can be other than by attainment of jhana, how may that suspension be achieved, according to your reading of the texts? L: Jhana was practiced long long before Buddha. And did not lead anyone to enlightenment, even a slice. Best wishes Lukas #107432 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 6, 2010 6:53 am Subject: Re: Sangitiisutta. attention Kevin. nilovg Dear Connie, and Kevin, Op 6-mei-2010, om 6:52 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > 322 is the end for now unless keven decided now is as good a time > as any for him to start his sutta/commentary translation project. > actually, I was selfish not asking if you had enough at the end of > the first recitation section. ------- N: Kevin, how far are you into the Pali grammar, we are missing you already. But I do understand you need your time. I am interested to know how it works to listen to Pali lessons like you do. I need to study through eyes, more than through ears. I found the passage about the recitation of Abhidhamma by monks we discussed before in Survey: This is very beautiful. I wonder whether there are still vihaaras where this is chanted. Meanwhile I can go on with the Sixes of the Sangitiisutta, but in a quieter tempo. I shall see how it goes. I wrote to Connie that I would miss it too much to stop with these texts. All the best with your studies, Nina. #107433 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 6, 2010 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? nilovg Dear Han and Lukas, Han, I hope you will soon feel better. Kusala citta also helps a lot. Maybe if you start quoting from Sayadaw you will feel better and better, I hope. I shall just add a little. Op 6-mei-2010, om 0:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > If there is no appamaada, there will be no aatapii, no sampajaano, > and no satimaa, > Why so? > Because, as the Buddha had said in AN 10.15, whatever kusala > dhammas there are, they are all rooted in appamaada (sabbe te > appamaadamuulakaa). converge upon appamaada > (appamaadasamosara.naa), if there is no appamaada, the aatapii, > sampajaano, and satimaa will have no roots to base upon or to > establish, and they will not be converging to have a synergic > effect of unification at the right moment. It may be difficult to > accept this point. But I cannot explain it any further. ------- N: Very true. But people will wonder: how can there be appamaada? It cannot be forced. I think right understanding of the Dhamma can be the condition to see the great value of appamaada. If we do not see its value, no conditions. We need more saddhaa, confidence in kusala. We can come to understand that the eightfold Path is the way leading to the eradication of defilements. Nina. #107434 From: han tun Date: Thu May 6, 2010 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Nina (Lukas), Nina: Very true. But people will wonder: how can there be appamaada? It cannot be forced. I think right understanding of the Dhamma can be the condition to see the great value of appamaada. If we do not see its value, no conditions. We need more saddhaa, confidence in kusala. We can come to understand that the eightfold Path is the way leading to the eradication of defilements. ---------- Han: I agree each and every word of your above statement. You will remember I had said that [I have even stronger statements in mind in praise of appamaada above anything else. But I will not make any more statements, and accept your wise comments about the significance of sati.] I had already accepted your statement on the significance of sati. I opened my heart on appamaada only because you said you wanted to hear. Now again, I accept whatever you have written just now, especially the statement that you think right understanding of the Dhamma can be the condition to see the great value of appamaada, and that we need more saddhaa in kusala. It is only that I am stubborn. When I believe something I stick to it. That is why I keep on saying that appamaada is the most significant of all kusala dhammas, and as long as there is pamaada, and as long as there is no appamaada, there cannot be any kusala dhamma. Respectfully, Han #107435 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 6, 2010 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? nilovg Dear Han, Op 6-mei-2010, om 9:41 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > It is only that I am stubborn. When I believe something I stick to > it. That is why I keep on saying that appamaada is the most > significant of all kusala dhammas, and as long as there is pamaada, > and as long as there is no appamaada, there cannot be any kusala > dhamma. ------ N: No, you are not stubborn. I justed added something, and had no intention to argue about anything you had written. I am just appreciating anything you write. Nina. #107436 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 11:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Howard (107429) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > Jon, I believe I've now posted twice as to my position on this. I'd > really prefer not engaging in attempts at further explanation. > =============== Nobody should feel under any obligation here to discuss if they don't wish to. So by all means state your position but decline to clarify further ;-)) > =============== > Of course, there can be no awareness at the same moment as there is > akusala. But to my understanding, there can be awareness arising in amongst > akusala, that is to say, awareness of immediately past moments of akusala. At > such moments, awareness is not overwhelmed by akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > The hindrances would be in abeyance at that moment. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > =============== Precisely. The arising of a moment of kusala consciousness puts the hindrances in abeyance for that moment. This (i.e., the arising of kusala, including of the level of satipatthana) can and does occur without the arising of jhana or indeed without the need for any 'input' from the individual during the moments immediately preceding the arising of the kusala. The cetana that accompanies each moment of kusala arises because of a combination of past and present conditions. > =============== > Well, Jon, we just don't see this matter similarly. :-) > =============== Well we can just add this one to the list ;-)) Jon #107437 From: han tun Date: Thu May 6, 2010 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: No, you are not stubborn. I just added something, and had no intention to argue about anything you had written. I am just appreciating anything you write. Han: Thank you very much for your kind understanding. Even if you had argued, I would still appreciate it. Because I know that you must have a very good reason if you do not agree with me. I have absolute faith in your Dhamma knowledge, and although you do not accept my praise you never make mistakes. Respectfully, Han #107438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 6, 2010 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kusala for kusala sake nilovg Hi Howard, I find this very interesting. It is striking. Nina. Op 5-mei-2010, om 14:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Though the foundation is what Christians call the > "Old Testament," the major structure of theory and practice is the > mishnah, > talmud, and midrash, plus the Zohar & other books of Jewish > mysticism, and > mussar, i.e., methods of mental and moral cultivation very similar to > Buddhist teachings, and all of which amounts to commentary and > exegesis, often > going FAR afield from the original "Hebrew Bible". > In Judaism, the religion has its ultimate basis in the Tanach (the > tripartite teaching consisting of Torah (i.e., the 5 books of > Moses), Nevi'im > (i.e. Prophets), and Ketuvim (i.e., the Writings) - what one might > call the > Hebrew "Tipitaka." #107439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 6, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - nilovg Dear Howard and Jon, Op 6-mei-2010, om 5:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Jon: Are you saying that there can be no development of awareness > as described > in the Satipatthaana Sutta, even at the beginning level, unless > there has > been the temporary suppression of hindrances occasioned by jhana > citta? ------- N: You both discuss the hindrances. I just like to add something: I found an old post by Sarah, a quote and this may interest you. Also when intently listening to the Dhamma there are no hindrnaces. ------- Nina. #107440 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 6, 2010 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + upasaka_howard H, Jon In a message dated 5/6/2010 7:31:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107429) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > Jon, I believe I've now posted twice as to my position on this. I'd > really prefer not engaging in attempts at further explanation. > =============== Nobody should feel under any obligation here to discuss if they don't wish to. So by all means state your position but decline to clarify further ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Jon. I've run out of paraphrases. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > Of course, there can be no awareness at the same moment as there is > akusala. But to my understanding, there can be awareness arising in amongst > akusala, that is to say, awareness of immediately past moments of akusala. At > such moments, awareness is not overwhelmed by akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > The hindrances would be in abeyance at that moment. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > =============== Precisely. The arising of a moment of kusala consciousness puts the hindrances in abeyance for that moment. This (i.e., the arising of kusala, including of the level of satipatthana) can and does occur without the arising of jhana or indeed without the need for any 'input' from the individual during the moments immediately preceding the arising of the kusala. The cetana that accompanies each moment of kusala arises because of a combination of past and present conditions. > =============== > Well, Jon, we just don't see this matter similarly. :-) > =============== Well we can just add this one to the list ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- There are occasional exceptions, rare, but not nonexistent. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107441 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 3:55 pm Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107372) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > Bahiya may have had Jhana or jhana like attainments prior to meeting the Buddha. ... > > > > Reading from the sutta, he also had very very strong urgency to see the Buddha, a lot of faith! So all these things combined, plus meeting the Buddha (a super motivational experience itself) was enough, FOR HIM, to become an Arahant within few minutes. All Bahiya needed was a proper personalized instruction by the Buddha and very ardent application of it. The rest, he may have completed to required degree. > > =============== > > So I think you are saying that, as you understand it, jhana is >required for *all* individuals, although that jhana may not need to >arise at the time of the development of insight. Have I understood >you correctly? Right. Some people may have accomplished it (maybe even in previous lives) to some degree prior to meeting the Buddha. Please understand me that many of the miraculous suttas, where a person goes to see the Buddha, hears a sutta, and becomes awakened is a tip of an iceberg. The sutta may not have described the ardent meditation practice of that person (if not in this life, then in previous lives). Furthermore I am sure that meeting a Buddha, having him give you personal instructions, etc, was an extraordinary experience itself that could make the sutta itself give much more powerful effect than bare reading of translation (of who knows what quality). I and some people may have read the suttas a number of times, perhaps 100x of the required amount for arhatship yet I (and presume many other people) am not awakened. Why? Because we haven't developed enough (or correctly enough) the path. > > =============== > > The patisambhidamagga suggest that satipatthana is lokuttara. > > =============== > > I thought we were discussing the prerequisites for the development >of mundane satipatthana, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta. Anapanasati itself could fulfill 4 satipatthanas MN118. It also can lead to awakening and Jhanas. > It is explained in the texts that a fingersnap of awareness is >kusala of an extremely high degree. > > Jon Right, it is very good for all, but it may not be sufficient for all types of individuals to reach maggaphala. If it works for you, great! For the rest of us, there is slower and more mundane path... === "Just be still, and wait in that stillness. You are not asking for anything, you are not expecting anything. You don't want anything, because all expecting and wanting is the movement of the mind that takes you away from stillness. You are into peace, into stillness. If you get peace and stillness, that's good enough. You just sit there watching, and the peace will consolidate. The stillness becomes even more frozen. Just watch as all these stages of meditation happen. The stages of meditation are not something that we make happen. They are just sign posts on a journey. It's just like when I'm sitting in the van going into town. I don't do the driving; I just watch. Now we go through Serpentine, now through Byford, now through Armadale, now through Perth and into Nollamara. They're just stages on the journey. We watch, literally doing nothing, being still one hundred per cent, being peaceful. We see present moment awareness. Now there's silence. We didn't do that; the silence came by itself. And then the breath comes up. We didn't do that; the breath just came. It is just the territory we are passing through. Now the breath is beautiful. It's OK. That's neat, but we don't do anything. Now the nimmitta comes up. We never looked for it, we never asked it to come; or told it to go away; it just happens naturally. The nimmitta is just so brilliant and beautiful. Then we are in jhanas and we keep on going. All these things just happen naturally, all by themselves. We didn't do a thing. All we did was to maintain our peace. We kept the stillness, and so the hindrances never had a chance. Mara the controller is completely confounded. We went in a different direction, the direction of a Buddha, not the direction of the world. We went according to anatta. There's no one in here, so how could we do anything? We didn't follow delusion; we followed wisdom, the path of the saints. That's how we meditate. That's how we get this beautiful, powerful mindfulness." - Simply This Moment! pg 261 pdf ========================================== With metta, Alex #107442 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 4:04 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, > Are you saying that there can be no development of awareness as >described in the Satipatthaana Sutta, even at the beginning level, >unless there has been the temporary suppression of hindrances >occasioned by jhana citta? For some people it maybe the case that Jhana first, is the better way to go. > L: Jhana was practiced long long before Buddha. And did not lead >anyone to enlightenment, even a slice. > > Best wishes > Lukas First it is questionable as to the quality of that "jhana". It may not have been the real, Buddhist, Jhana. Secondly, even a powerful tool can be misused. It is not the fault of the tool but of the user. It is possible to misuse less than perfect Jhana. And some ascetics may have misused the Jhana, something that a wise Buddhist would not do. If you are certain of conditionality, anicca, dukkha, anatta and know that even the equinimity of 8th Jhana is to be let go off and that "nothing is worth clinging to", it wouldn't be unlikely to reach Arhatship after mastery of Jhanas. The above paragraph may be sufficient for Arhatship. With metta, Alex #107443 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 5:59 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + szmicio Dear Alex, > For some people it maybe the case that Jhana first, is the better way to go. L: Of course. > > L: Jhana was practiced long long before Buddha. And did not lead >anyone to enlightenment, even a slice. > > First it is questionable as to the quality of that "jhana". It may not have been the real, Buddhist, Jhana. > > Secondly, even a powerful tool can be misused. It is not the fault of the tool but of the user. > > It is possible to misuse less than perfect Jhana. And some ascetics may have misused the Jhana, something that a wise Buddhist would not do. > > If you are certain of conditionality, anicca, dukkha, anatta and know that even the equinimity of 8th Jhana is to be let go off and that "nothing is worth clinging to", it wouldn't be unlikely to reach Arhatship after mastery of Jhanas. The above paragraph may be sufficient for Arhatship. L: What do you understand saying jhana? What is it? What is the problem? There needs to be firm understanding first to get jhana. In all religions people develop different objects of meditation. Non of them is enlightenment. If I get jhana, this is OK. If I dont get, this is also Ok. Why bother? Best wishes Lukas #107444 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 7:51 pm Subject: Pleasure or right speach szmicio Dear friends, This is so hard to speak in a right way. Sometimes I enjoy in pleasure and say words that are not good, because this is much more pleasure than right speach. How do you deal with this? Even if I want to speak in a right way, I prefer to say it in a bad way and this is much more pleasant at that moment. Best wishes Lukas #107445 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 8:50 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, > Dear Alex, > L: What do you understand saying jhana? What is it? I could quote suttas or discuss Aj Brahm's version of it. >What is the problem? What do you mean? >There needs to be firm understanding first to get jhana. Yes, up to a point. One needs to know that it is anicca, dukkha (compared to Nibbana) and anatta. One doesn't get into Jhana (nama does), it happens as a conditioned process when the conditions are right. > In all religions people develop different objects of meditation. Not all. And those that could develop "jhana" like state misinterpret the experience, something that wise Buddhist would not do. >Non of them is enlightenment. It is an important tool that can be used right or misused. > If I get jhana, this is OK. If I dont get, this is also Ok. Why >bother? Because a conditioned process sees that there is no choice but to follow a certain path. With metta, Alex #107446 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu May 6, 2010 11:04 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). gazita2002 hallo Nina, thank you for this series: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > > no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). > > > > Domanassa, unhappy feeling, arises only with cittas of the jaati > > which is akusala; it always arises with dosa-muula-citta, citta > > rooted in aversion, it does not arise with lobha-muula-citta, citta > > rooted in attachment, nor with moha-muula-citta, citta rooted in > > ignorance. > > When we see someone else suffer, we have compassion and want to > > help him. However, kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise closely > > one after the other. snip....... > > We attach great importance to feeling, we let ourselves be carried away > > by the feelings which arise on account of pleasant or unpleasant objects we > > experience through the senses. The Buddha classified feeling as a separate khandha because people cling very much to feeling. We are > > enslaved to our feelings, but they are only realities which arise because of the appropriate conditions and do not last. > > Nina. azita: It does become obvious why the Buddha classified Vedana as a separate khandha. As you say we cling very much to feeling. Its hard to have 'patience' with unpleasant feeling, but what else can one do. Often a bush walk disperses my unpleasant feelings, however it then becomes pleasant feeling and altho it feels better there is little kusala involved. My work keeps me busy and tired which creates unpleasant feeling, basically I'm lazy and would prefer to just wander in the country:) patience, courage and good cheer, (hard to do) azita #107447 From: Sukinder Date: Fri May 7, 2010 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sukinderpal Hi Ken, This is from a few weeks ago, but I read it only now and would like to respond to it. ========= Sarah: No one here, no one at all on DSG, has ever blamed the "bowl" as the cause of the vipallasas or of any other unwholesome states. The "bowl" is just a figment of the imagination. We all agree that the proliferations, the papancas, refer to the thinking with lobha, mana and ditthi and that these are the problem rather than bowls or the purple flying elephants or whatever else is dreamt about. KO: You said there is something on the thing, so what is the cause of this something? Also Sukin said this <> So methods are concepts, it is quite contrary to your claims that we all agree. Suk: It is probably due to the way I phrased it, but I think you misunderstood what I was pointing at. The objection to ‘method’ wasn’t simply because I judged it to be concept. I had no doubt that you knew to distinguish intellectually, reality from concepts. If I remember correctly, you thought that I was concerned about papanca while engaging in meditation, I therefore tried to point out in the above, that the papanca is in the very conceiving of method and idea of meditation. In other words it is the proliferation of view which sees ‘methods’ in what in fact are descriptions of mental states giving rise then to wrong practice which is what I was pointing to, and not that ‘method’ or ‘meditation’ are concepts. I mean, ‘apple’ is a concept, would I be suggesting that conceiving this is wrong? So what is the difference between this and ‘methods’ in the context of samatha or vipassana bhavana? Do you see my point now? And while we’re at this, you always insist that there is nothing wrong with any concepts. But what about ‘praying to God’ or ‘fire worship’ or ‘jhana retreat’, according to you are these concepts as neutral as are apple or house or man? On the other hand, when referring to dana, sila, samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana, these can be understood in terms of ultimate realities, therefore when discussing them shouldn’t we do so in terms of particular mental realities because otherwise it will easily be misleading? Metta, Sukinder #107448 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 4:15 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + szmicio Dear Alex > >There needs to be firm understanding first to get jhana. > >A: Yes, up to a point. One needs to know that it is anicca, dukkha (compared to Nibbana) and anatta. One doesn't get into Jhana (nama does), it happens as a conditioned process when the conditions are right. L: Yes,it is. But I've also noticed, that if we think a lot of jhana, we can miss a lot of realities now. Best wishes Lukas #107449 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 12:03 am Subject: Blazing Goodwill! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Blazing goodwill produces infinite joy! Training Universal Friendliness induces unalloyed Joy! Cultivating Boundless Pity enables tranquil Tolerance! Developing Mutual Joy produces deep Contentment! Refining Equanimity establishes calming Serenity! The Blessed Buddha repeatedly explained: May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings one and all, without exception, experience joy and good fortune only. May they not fall into any harm! Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 With good will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate a limitless & infinite heart: Above, as below, across & all around, Unobstructed, without any hostility. Sutta Nipata I, 8 Overcome the angry by friendliness; Overcome the wicked by goodness; Overcome the miser by generosity; Overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 Train yourself in doing only pure good... That lasts and brings great happiness! Cultivate generosity, a peaceful living, and a mentality of infinite friendliness! Itivuttaka 16 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107450 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Fri May 7, 2010 8:24 am Subject: Lesson 10 :: Learn Abhidharma the easy way - Chethasika Samprayoga of 2 Mauha moola (Delusion Rooted) Chitta gemunu.rohana The last 2 Chitta? of 12 Unwholesome Chitta are Mauha moola Chitta. These are termed as Delusion rooted. The badness of these chitta is the inability of oneself to focus on wholesome (Kusal) deeds. ? You can use following rules to remember Chethasika associations in these chitta 1. 7 Sarwa Chitta Sadarana Chethasika have to be there in any Chitta so they are counted anyway 2. 14 Chethasika marked as common to all Akusal Chittha (including above 7) to be counted first, this is the common total for this category of chitta 3. Adimokka (Judge action) cannot be there in Vichikichcha (suspicion for the focus) associated chitta, So the total Chetasika count for this chitta is 15 when Vichikichcha added to above 14. This Chitta is too weak to give oneself a birth in 4 fears hells 4. Adimokka (Judge action) is there in Uddachcha (restless, fast shifting focus ) associated chitta,So the total Chetasika count for this chitta is 15 when Adimokka added to above 14. This Chitta can give oneself a birth in 4 fears hells. ? Try to remember the total Chethasika against each 2 Chitta as illustrated in the slide to complete your knowledge on these 2 Mauha moola (Delusion Rooted) Chitta. Referring back to 52 Chethasika and one next to that will help you understand the details given in this slide better. The highlighting done using red cloud shows the worst Akusal Chitta in this collection. ? http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/2010/05/chethasika-samprayoga-of-2-delusi\ on.html May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! Visit http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/ for freely downloadable Dharma content. #107451 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 10:01 am Subject: Re: Vesak sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, I'm glad to read all your posts. > >L: This year I will spend Vesak. But I am not sure when it is? > > > > I will surely get some rest that day, .... S: Whenever there's any kusala, there's rest, so no need to wait! Samatha, calm, true rest at such moments, not when trying to have samatha or trying to focus on any object to be calm.... A moment of right understanding of a dhamma now - the highest calm... Metta Sarah ======== #107452 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 10:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: Panna now is primarily conditioned by previous panna which has accumulated. Because of such panna and associated states, such as cetana, there is the listening, reading, discussing and considering of the meaning. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty even these so-called "actions" are just different conditioned dhammas which we refer to in such a way.<...>> >... > KO: You mean other dhamam cannot condition panna to arise. ... S: I haven't said that. Read the above again, a little more carefully:) .... ? Sati can condition likewise for any saddha.? It is not restricted to previous panna.? you mean listening is not an action, .... S: Read above again :). Just namas and rupas, Ken! They are "the All". .... >dont said action is useless, without it you cannot even listen. ... S: You talk about action, I talk about dhammas. Kusala dhammas are very useful, akusala dhammas are useless, regardless of the activity. .... > >>K:If you dont act in this way, pse enlighten me how you listen and read books? By panna alone ;-)? > >... > >S: "You" again...:-) No one ever acts, Ken! > >... > > KO: You mean cetana dont act.No one acts that i know, But what is the dhamma that cause to read books. Panna alone ... S: Again, read what I wrote at the top more carefully. ... > >S: No, conditions don't make anyone ever have panna. However, yes, panna just arises by conditions, such as the listening. If we go to listen, wishing and expecting to have panna, then it's the wrong path again:) > > KO: definitely, but if you dont listen and read, would you have panna. You like saying that when Buddha in front of Dipanka Buddha and declare he wanted to be Buddha is wrong, isnt he expecting to be a Buddha. ... S: I'll need to read the details again. The intentions of the Bodhisatta in front of Dipankara Buddha and ours when wishing to become enlightened are very different:-). ... >So what is dhamma that expects, so what is the dhamma that condition one to listen and read, panna alone again :-) .... S: "Expects" is nearly always lobha. Many different dhammas conditioning "one to listen and read". Only panna can know when it arises what the dhammas are. This is why we need to reflect on and understand dhammas, not situations. Metta Sarah ======= #107453 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO: If one cannot change the way we think, then I what is panna for :-). ... S: To understand, not to change anything. "One" never plays any kind of role - it's an illusion, Ken. Like Alex, you understandably get tired of us pointing this out and both claim it's just a matter of speech, but both continue to insist that *We* can change this and that and there are things *we* should do. It's not a game to point out the Truth:) ... >You mean you dont change the way you think about dhamma after you listen to AS for the first few times ... S: No, *I* don't change anything. Namas and rupas arise and fall away all the time, changing as soon as they've arisen. Metta Sarah ======= #107454 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: >>S:Any desire at all hinders immediately. "Natural" just means the arising of sati, panna, samatha, other wholesome states without wishing or expecting but by developing detachment at this moment. > > KO: When you mean natural, so does lobha. so what is natural which I have ask you before. ... S: Yes and I've replied many times before as well:). Now, lobha is very natural. Panna, sati, samatha and so on have to develop until they become as natural as the present lobha is. ... > Ah... the word accumlations, if it does not start somewhere to start developing it, it would not happen.? so dont use accumulations too losely because there could be aksuala accumulations also. ... S: Yes - asaya anusaya, wholesome and unwholesome accumulations - all conditioned. Trying to have wholesome accumulations or trying to make them happen does not lead to more kusala, it leads to more akusala. ... >The text is clear that jhanas can be developed, unless you show a me text the jhanas otherwise. ... S: Show me the text that "jhanas can be developed" by all or that desiring to develop the jhanas ever leads to jhana attainment. Show me the texts where lay-people were encouraged to attain jhanas as "part of the path". Metta Sarah ====== #107455 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: "something on the thing". Sorry, I haven't said this and don't understand it. What I've said repeatedly is that the hardness or colour experienced is taken for a "thing" for atta, for "a bowl", for example. > >Why? Because of ignorance and wrong view, attanuditthi. > > > KO:? Hardness is a thing, feeling is a thing, there is nothing wrong with thing, ... S: Hardness is an element, pathavi dhatu, not a "thing". Taking it for "something" is attanuditthi. ... >the wrongness come from miccha ditthi taking this hardnes or feeling or thing as permament or as belong to oneself etc. ... S: When the hardness experienced now is taken for a thing, something, a table, a computer, there is the idea of permanence behind it. This is because there is no understanding of impermanent elements. The sotapanna therefore eradicates the idea of atta, something, at the same time as eradicating the idea of permanence. ... > KO: The bowl is taken as part of me is sakkayaditthi and attanuditthi... .... S: For most people, the arm is taken as part of them, the leg, the hair, but not the bowl:) .... > KO:...We take hardness for a bowl or a being or any concepts, that is nothing wrong in this perception, ... S: When we think that what is experienced now is really a bowl or a being, then it's wrong view, Ken. ... >it is only when we take this hardness for a bowl as self or as eternal, that is the ditthi that cause it and not because one perceive hardness as bowl or being. We cannot stop the mind from thinking of concepts like rupa as bowl or being, we could only understand it as it rupa or as anatta. ... S: Yes, it depends on the understanding. However, attanuditthi can be very subtle. ... > It is not the bowl or hardness that matters, it is the understanding of it that matters. ... S: when there is right understanding, there is no bowl experienced, there is just hardness, pathavi dhatu. We read about how the worldling "perceives through a perversion of perception, seizing upon the conventional expression (and thinking) 'it is earth' (lokavohaara.m gahetvaa sa~n~naavipallaasena sa~njaanaati)." Later " 'For what reason does the worldlong conceive earth/ Why does he conceive and delight in earth?' the answer is: 'Because it has not been fully understood by him,' i.e. because he has not fully understood the base, therefore (he does so)." (comy to Mulapariyaya Sutta, Bodhi transl, p39f) Metta Sarah ======= #107456 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: Yes, sati and panna are essential for any kind of bhavana, whether it be samatha or vipassana bhavana. In the case of samatha bhavana, the panna or sampajanna has a different object, but it is still essential. (Sati arises, of course, with all kusala cittas). > > > > KO: Sati arise with all kusala does not mean it is the main faculty... .... S: ?? You had suggested in a post to Alex that sati and sampajanna were not necessary for jhana (or something along those lines). I had commented on this. Whether sati is or is not the main faculty has nothing to do with the discussion or anything I've written:-)). Metta Sarah ==== #107457 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 11:13 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas sarahprocter... Dear Mike, I appreciate your careful reflection on the text. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). > > > > > > However, some seem much more complex, for example: > > > (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: > > > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > > > > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. ... S: The commentary itself to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha says: "Right livelihood (sammaa-aajiiva) is that by means of which one makes a living rightly; it is the refraining from wrong livelihood. By way of refraining from misconduct of body and speech as the basis of one's livelihood, it is sevenfold; alternatively by way of refraining from wrong livelihood by means of deceitful talk, etc., it is manifold. These, [S: inc. right speech and right action] which are also each threefold by way of [refraining from] an opportunity gained, [refraining] because of undertaking [the precepts] and [refraining] by cutting off [defilements], are called the 'three refrainings' because of refraining from the said kinds of misconduct." S: Considering the aspect of refraining from false speech (whether in the course of one's work or not), refraining from divisive speech, unkind speech or frivolous chatter, we can begin to see how right speech (and right livelihood) really do refer to momentary wholesome dhammas which condition various rupas at such times. As others have said (and as you point out above), there are always many, many cittas, many processes of cittas involved at such times, just as there are now as we write. Even so, one citta at a time! thx for helping us all to reflect further on this. Metta Sarah p.s Also, a lot more under "livelihood" in "Useful Posts". ======== #107458 From: "sarah" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 11:17 am Subject: Re: Visiting the historical sites of the Buddha sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Buddhist friends, > > Could anyone instruct me how to (from Australia) books accommodations and transportations for independently visiting the major sites (in Nepal and India) of the historical Buddha? ... S: Welcome to DSG! I hope you saw Azita's reply. She'd definitely be a good person to give you advice on this. Why not tell us more about your plans and interest in visiting the Holy Places? I really appreciate having had the opportunity to visit them a few times and to see the recent excavations and development of the sites. Where abouts in Australia do you live? Metta Sarah ====== #107459 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >Yes, they are conditioned, and therefore they roll on. Isn't that what I said? :-) KO:? There is difference in everything is conditioned to happen and the?arising?dhamma condition the next cause.? Dear Ken H > >It is the essential first step; Dhamma students should learn *from the beginning* the difference between concepts and realities. >It is. Where it is not expressly stated, "anatta" says it all. The fact of anatta means that all conventional reality is just illusion.?? >That's true, but to understand dhammas as anatta you must first know what dhammas are. Most Buddhists these days are looking for anatta in concepts. KO:? Understanding anatta is not about differentiatng conventional reality and ultimate reality.? It is the understanding of dhamma that help one to understand anatta.? Even concepts can help one to understand dhamma as anatta.?? Though the difference in concept and dhamma is important but not essential to the understanding of anatta.? It is rather the dhamma that arise that matters and not the object. >I don't know what you mean by that. Concepts don't arise. They don't do anything. And even though there are always dhammas, there is only one object-of-conscious ness at a time. And so when a concept is the object citta can't be experiencing a dhamma. KO:? because citta is a dhamma, and citta must arise with cetasikas.? It is the dhamma (citta)?that think of a concept, that (vedana)?feels over a conceptual object and not the object :-).? The path of development is not about experience a dhamma,?it is about?understanding the dhamma with?experience the?object.? > >If listening and reading are seen as methods for developing samatha and vipassana then there is wrong view and a wrong path is being followed. The same goes for the 32 parts and breathing. > KO:? without listening and reading, we cannot develop further understanding of dhamma.? Any development starts from listening which is a conventional action that take on conceptuals objects.? It cannot be paramatha dhamma when one listen.? As long as there is repeated behaviour, it is a method irregardless it is standard formulae or not.?? We must differentiate actions from kusala or aksuala, if listening is aksuala, then it would be impossible for one to develop panna. > >Do you want to direct the mind? If you do, it is because you don't understand that there is only the present moment. There is no "you" who will continue on to a future moment. So you will never experience the object you are trying to direct the mind to. Nor will anyone else experience it,there are only dhammas. KO:? Not whether one want or not, dhamma will direct.? When one listen to dhamma, the dhamma cetana and vitakka will direct the mind to the object of listening.? If there is no directing of the mind towards an object, one cannot listen. Cheers Ken O #107460 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Jon > >To my understanding, the sutta passages you refer to are instances of dhammas being described in terms of conventional objects. KO:? Does that mean conventional object cannot help in development.? > >As I indicated in my message to pt, I doubt there's a direct quote in the Tipitaka specifically negating concepts as object of insight development, or as exhibiting the 3 characteristics. It's a matter of inference to be drawn from what's said (and what's not said) in the suttas. > >As far as I know, in the suttas references to the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta invariably relate to the characteristics of *dhammas* only. KO:? Nope, because a concept can condition dhamma to arise to understand the concept is anatta.? Cheers Ken O #107461 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 3:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >.... >S: Read above again :). Just namas and rupas, Ken! They are "the All". KO:? Now?we have the?The All.? The All can include concepts because listening is a conventional action taking a conceptual objects.? So is listening a paramatha dhamma level or a conventional level.? >... >S: You talk about action, I talk about dhammas. Kusala dhammas are very useful, akusala dhammas are useless, regardless of the activity. KO:? You did not answer my questions, how do you listen then without cetana as a dhamma.? Are you saying there is no cetana as dhamma.? >... >S: I'll need to read the details again. The intentions of the Bodhisatta in front of Dipankara Buddha and ours when wishing to become enlightened are very different:-) . KO:? Good I am waiting :-) . >.... >S: "Expects" is nearly always lobha. Many different dhammas conditioning "one to listen and read". Only panna can know when it arises what the dhammas are. This is why we need to reflect on and understand dhammas, not situations. > KO:? so then how does one wish to be a Buddha if the dhamma does not arise to condition.??You mean panna alone one can act or listen or have?interest.?? We have to be clear on the dhamma terms.? Cheers Ken O #107462 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 3:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >>You mean you dont change the way you think about dhamma after you listen to AS for the first few times >... >S: No, *I* don't change anything. Namas and rupas arise and fall away all the time, changing as soon as they've arisen. > KO:? here we go again, trying to converse in conventional language then we have such statements.? Definitely it is dhamma, but does that dimiss the fact that it is the understanding of dhamma that change.? cheers KEn O #107463 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 3:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: Yes and I've replied many times before as well:). Now, lobha is very natural. Panna, sati, samatha and so on have to develop until they become as natural as the present lobha is. KO:? Now its my turn to say this :-) - Isn't that expectation to be natural.? Why is there to reach natural level?? Isnt understanding is just developing understanding of anatta, anccia and dukkha.? I did not see any text that said development is about being natural as lobha.? Interesting theory you have. ? >... >S: Yes - asaya anusaya, wholesome and unwholesome accumulations - all conditioned. Trying to have wholesome accumulations or trying to make them happen does not lead to more kusala, it leads to more akusala. KO:? Dhamma tries, strive, there is no need to be concern about it.? If there is no dhamma that tries, there is no striving in learning the dhamma then like listening and reading ... >S: Show me the text that "jhanas can be developed" by all or that desiring to develop the jhanas ever leads to jhana attainment. Show me the texts where lay-people were encouraged to attain jhanas as "part of the path". KO:? I never said lay people, I always said jhanas is?not for lay people, it is for?ascetics or recluse?if you read my conversations with Alex.? I strongly discourage?meditation for lay people.???? But jhanas can be developed by recluse?who are described in Visud or satipathana commentaries.? You want to see the quote.? I can always give you :-) Cheers Ken O #107464 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) ashkenn2k Dear Sukin >This is from a few weeks ago, but I read it only now and would like to >respond to it. >========= KO: Sure why not :-) >Suk: It is probably due to the way I phrased it, but I think you >misunderstood what I was pointing at. >The objection to ‘method’ wasn’t simply because I judged it to be >concept. I had no doubt that you knew to distinguish intellectually, >reality from concepts. If I remember correctly, you thought that I was >concerned about papanca while engaging in meditation, I therefore tried >to point out in the above, that the papanca is in the very conceiving of >method and idea of meditation. In other words it is the proliferation of >view which sees ‘methods’ in what in fact are descriptions of mental >states giving rise then to wrong practice which is what I was pointing >to, and not that ‘method’ or ‘meditation’ are concepts. I mean, ‘apple’ >is a concept, would I be suggesting that conceiving this is wrong? So >what is the difference between this and ‘methods’ in the context of >samatha or vipassana bhavana? Do you see my point now? KO: apple is a concept definitely. so does breathing meditation. So does that mean the very idea of breathing meditiaton is papanca or the dhamma that arise with it. Cheers Ken O #107465 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: Hardness is an element, pathavi dhatu, not a "thing". Taking it for "something" is attanuditthi. >... >S: When the hardness experienced now is taken for a thing, something, a table, a computer, there is the idea of permanence behind it. This is because there is no understanding of impermanent elements. The sotapanna therefore eradicates the idea of atta, something, at the same time as eradicating the idea of permanence. KO:?? Hardness is hardness, when hardness is taken for a thing, it is no longer hardness, it is just thinking.? Thing is thing, permamence is permanence, it is about the thing that is view being permanent that is micchda ditthi and not the thing itself.? Thing can be kusala or aksuala, just like seeing Buddha and seeing a a thing we?crave :-)?? >.... >S: For most people, the arm is taken as part of them, the leg, the hair, but not the bowl:) >.... KO:? You should read the commentary to MN1, where the earth which is a concept is taken as oneself and that is?sakkyaditthi.? Bowl is a concept so does earth kasina object.? What is the difference then :-). >> KO:...We take hardness for a bowl or a being or any concepts, that is nothing wrong in this perception, >... >S: When we think that what is experienced now is really a bowl or a being, then it's wrong view, Ken. KO:? Nope that where why I said this understanding is wrong.? So that means during ancient time when people see Buddha, it is already wrong, they would not have listen to him because?the dhamma that arise is already aksuala.??? Bowl and?being are concepts? This is the same as?viewing concept as atta.? So what is atta, the concept or the miccha ditthi.??? . >S: Yes, it depends on the understanding. However, attanuditthi can be very subtle. >. >S: when there is right understanding, there is no bowl experienced, there is just hardness, pathavi dhatu. > >We read about how the worldling "perceives through a perversion of perception, seizing upon the conventional expression (and thinking) 'it is earth' (lokavohaara. m gahetvaa sa~n~naavipallaasen a sa~njaanaati) ." > >Later >" 'For what reason does the worldlong conceive earth/ Why does he conceive and delight in earth?' the answer is: 'Because it has not been fully understood by him,' i.e. because he has not fully understood the base, therefore (he does so)." (comy to Mulapariyaya Sutta, Bodhi transl, p39f) > KO:? Definitely because peversion of preception is conditioned by miccha ditthi and not because of a thing.? It is not the image of a bowl or?hardness of the bowl that cause?not understanding, it is the miccha ditthi that arise with the image, with the hardness, wiith the thinking of a?bowl and not the bowl itself.? the development of understanding is to understand anatta, anicca and dukkha. Cheers Ken O? #107466 From: Ken O Date: Fri May 7, 2010 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >> >> KO: Sati arise with all kusala does not mean it is the main faculty... >.... >S: ?? You had suggested in a post to Alex that sati and sampajanna were not necessary for jhana (or something along those lines). I had commented on this. Whether sati is or is not the main faculty has nothing to do with the discussion or anything I've written:-)). KO:? Nope I never said that sati is not necessary for jhanas neither did I said that sati and sampajanna is not necessary for jhanas which is used as a basis of insight.? If I give you that impression, my apology. Cheers Ken O #107467 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition truth_aerator Dear Sarah, KenO, all, > S: To understand, not to change anything. "One" never plays any >kind of role - it's an illusion, Ken. I haven't said otherwise. I am sure that neither did KenO. I'll say more, no one vaccuums the carpets (but this doesn't mean that this namarupa process doesn't occur). No one meditates, it is just a conditioned process with wisdom getting closer at unbinding... >Like Alex, you understandably get tired of us pointing this out and >both claim it's just a matter of speech, but both continue to insist >that *We* can change this and that and there are things *we* should >do. It's not a game to point out the Truth:) It is a process that changes, right. But this doesn't mean that understanding and other kusala qualities are powerless to change anything. What I disagree is fatalistic and scholastic interpretation of Dhamma. From one point some say that nothing can be done, and from the other side they say that change can occur (through understanding. So something can be done!). A 4 line stanza may be enough for Arhatship. I am sure that many of us have read 100x the amount necessary for Arhatship. Yet why didn't it occur? Not due to lack of information, that is for sure... here is an example: "When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the six media of sensory contact, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.204.than.html When you know the answer to the above, you know enough for Arhatship. Then why isn't one an arahant, even though one *knows* that? Strong hindrances, perhaps... This is where samatha may be required... With metta, Alex #107468 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Sarah, all, you wrote: So what is samatha? Is there samatha now? D: when we are calm , peace of mind, volition rests and nothing is between the world /the all of our senses, there is a state of consciousness called samatha, tranquillity . ... S: You've received various 'lively' comments in response:-) D: frankly speaking , I wasn't very pleased about some comments ..made me wonder about the sense of further posting S: For me, calm or samatha is passaddhi cetasika. This 'calm' mental factor arises with all wholesome cittas and falls away with them. So at moments of dana, sila r bhavana, there is calm. D: we may have different kinds of calm in mind .. I recall moments of dana and remember being mostly busy with its organization , though wholesome action /sila it is not the calm of body and mind I refer to (pls compare with the start of the contemplation of body -Maha Satipatthana) Nyanatiloka: what is the power of Tranquillity? It is the One-Pointedness and Undistractedness of mind through freedom from desires ..etc. S: such moments of calm, just as at all moments of non-calm, cetana cetasika volition)arises. It never rests. If you are referring to vitakka cetasika, this lso arises with almost all wholesome cittas - the exceptions being certain jhana cittas. So even at moments of dana or bhavana now, volition doesn't rest D: I know about moments , when there is freedom from desires, no intention, no will of action/volition ..but undisturbed peace and awareness. The ' sound of silence'..( Acharn Sumedho ) S: What we take for calm or peace of mind is usually, I find, the pleasant feeling hich arises with attachment, so the development of understanding which knows nd becomes detached from these different mental states is very important. D: no that is sensual pleasure , not samatha As I see it , deductions from Abhihamma need to find a relation to practise ..which I miss quite often though not excluding a lack of deeper penetration in the system of Abhidhamma. The Buddha used similes to convey his messages, for example this excerpt from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.204.than.html S:N. 35.204 The Riddle Tree (TB.) , in which main components are shown in its interrelation snip..."In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered. "Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body - composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." unquote but this text may for you so difficult to understand as it is to me to cope with the language of Abhidhamma in respect to practise. ( = too much Dhamma as Acharn Cha put it). So I am rather pessimistic about mutual acceptance and consent with the KS's group of Dhamma interpretation . Ideally it could ( and should complete with eachother) compare e.g. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.nypo.html S.N. 36.019 Pancakanga Sutta The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings. [1] So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation. "Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words. "Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who agree with, consent to, and accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will live in concord and amity, without dispute, like milk (that easily mixes) with water, looking at each other with friendly eyes. unquote S: I'll be glad to read any more of your comments. I was glad to read your spirited' discussion with Ken H and others:-)) D: nicely said, Sarah .. but you seem to me rather alone who I believe would be glad to .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #107469 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 7, 2010 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Sarah) - In a message dated 5/7/2010 2:03:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: S: I'll be glad to read any more of your comments. I was glad to read your spirited' discussion with Ken H and others:-)) D: nicely said, Sarah .. but you seem to me rather alone who I believe would be glad to .. ;-) ================== Surely not entirely alone, Dieter! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107470 From: "Dieter" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 7:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Dieter (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 5/7/2010 2:03:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > D: nicely said, Sarah .. but you seem to me rather alone who I believe would be glad to .. ;-) > ================== > Surely not entirely alone, Dieter! :-) D: thanks Howard ,not entirely ;-) ..I should have added : from KS Group .. with Metta Dieter #107471 From: "Mike" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 8:02 pm Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas mikenz66 Hi Sarah, Mike: Thanks for the comments. I understand that if one is practising right livelihood then it involves lots of momentary cittas. Mike: In fact, that's my problem: understanding why is it necessary to have specific cetasikas called "right speech/livelihood/etc" when they seem to be referring to a collection of "simple" cetasikas. Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > I appreciate your careful reflection on the text. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). > > > > > > > > However, some seem much more complex, for example: > > > > (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: > > > > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > > > > > > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. > ... > S: The commentary itself to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha says: > > "Right livelihood (sammaa-aajiiva) is that by means of which one makes a living rightly; it is the refraining from wrong livelihood. By way of refraining from misconduct of body and speech as the basis of one's livelihood, it is sevenfold; alternatively by way of refraining from wrong livelihood by means of deceitful talk, etc., it is manifold. These, [S: inc. right speech and right action] which are also each threefold by way of [refraining from] an opportunity gained, [refraining] because of undertaking [the precepts] and [refraining] by cutting off [defilements], are called the 'three refrainings' because of refraining from the said kinds of misconduct." > > S: Considering the aspect of refraining from false speech (whether in the course of one's work or not), refraining from divisive speech, unkind speech or frivolous chatter, we can begin to see how right speech (and right livelihood) really do refer to momentary wholesome dhammas which condition various rupas at such times. As others have said (and as you point out above), there are always many, many cittas, many processes of cittas involved at such times, just as there are now as we write. Even so, one citta at a time! > > thx for helping us all to reflect further on this. > > Metta > > Sarah > p.s Also, a lot more under "livelihood" in "Useful Posts". > ======== > #107472 From: "Mike" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 8:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? mikenz66 Sarah, KenO, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > KO: So what is dhamma that expects, so what is the dhamma that condition one to listen and read, panna alone again :-) > >S: "Expects" is nearly always lobha. Many different dhammas conditioning "one to listen and read". Only panna can know when it arises what the dhammas are. This is why we need to reflect on and understand dhammas, not situations. > > > KO:? so then how does one wish to be a Buddha if the dhamma does not arise to condition.??You mean panna alone one can act or listen or have?interest.?? We have to be clear on the dhamma terms.? Perhaps it would be useful to have some textual references as to which "expectations/desires/etc" are lobha, and which are not. As KenO says, it is necessary to be clear about our definitions. Perhaps discussing the motivation to read or listen would be useful, since there are a lot of examples of that in the Suttas. For example, MN 95 Canki Sutta: With Canki http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.095x.than.html ----------- ... "But what quality is most helpful for contemplating?..." "Being willing... If one weren't willing, one wouldn't contemplate..." "But what quality is most helpful for being willing?..." "Desire... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing..." "But what quality is most helpful for desire?..." "Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas... If one didn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn't arise..." ... ------------- Presumably the "desire" there is chanda (my grasp of Pali is not good). Mike #107473 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 9:38 pm Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) jonoabb Hi Alex (107441) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Right. Some people may have accomplished it (maybe even in previous lives) to some degree prior to meeting the Buddha. > =============== So you're saying that jhana is a prerequisite, but this could be jhana that was attained in a previous life. The problem with this is that there's no support for such a proposition in the texts. > =============== > I and some people may have read the suttas a number of times, perhaps 100x of the required amount for arhatship yet I (and presume many other people) am not awakened. Why? Because we haven't developed enough (or correctly enough) the path. > =============== I'd agree with that. The problem is lack of developed awareness/insight. > =============== > Anapanasati itself could fulfill 4 satipatthanas MN118. It also can lead to awakening and Jhanas. > =============== The question we're discussing is whether jhana is a prerequisite for the devlopemnt of insight. There's nothing in M 118 that suggests that it is. Nor does M 118 say that enlightenment can be attained by the development of samatha. > =============== > > It is explained in the texts that a fingersnap of awareness is >kusala of an extremely high degree. > > Right, it is very good for all, but it may not be sufficient for all types of individuals to reach maggaphala. If it works for you, great! For the rest of us, there is slower and more mundane path... > =============== The Satipatthana Sutta clearly says that the development of awareness leads to enlightenment. It does not say that awareness is sufficient for some types but not for others. > =============== > "Just be still, and wait in that stillness. You are not asking for anything, you are not expecting anything. You don't want anything, because all expecting and wanting is the movement of the mind that takes you away from stillness. You are into peace, into stillness. If you get peace and stillness, that's good enough. You just sit there > watching, and the peace will consolidate. The stillness becomes even more frozen. Just watch as all these stages of meditation happen. ... > =============== I'm afraid I cannot relate any of the above to what is said in the texts. What about the importance of understanding dhammas, seeing their 3 characteristics? Jon #107474 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 7, 2010 9:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? jonoabb Hi KenO (107460) > >To my understanding, the sutta passages you refer to are instances of dhammas being described in terms of conventional objects. > > KO: Does that mean conventional object cannot help in development. > =============== What it means is that the Buddha was describing awareness/insight with dhammas, not conventional objects, as object. > =============== > >As far as I know, in the suttas references to the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta invariably relate to the characteristics of *dhammas* only. > > KO: Nope, because a concept can condition dhamma to arise to understand the concept is anatta. > =============== Sorry, I don't see how this relates to the point. I was saying that when the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are mentioned in the suttas, it is invariably in the context of dhammas - not conventional objects - that this mention is made. Jon #107475 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 12:17 am Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >--- "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107441) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > Right. Some people may have accomplished it (maybe even in previous lives) to some degree prior to meeting the Buddha. > > =============== > > So you're saying that jhana is a prerequisite, but this could be jhana that was attained in a previous life. > > The problem with this is that there's no support for such a >proposition in the texts. Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised.MN108 Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo - AN6.64 ===== 1) Noble 8Fold path is required for Awakening (DN16) 2) Samma-Samadhi is part of it (MN141) 3) Samma-Samadhi is defined as the Jhanas (mn141) 4) Jhana IS the path to awakening MN36 > > > =============== > > I and some people may have read the suttas a number of times, perhaps 100x of the required amount for arhatship yet I (and presume many other people) am not awakened. Why? Because we haven't developed enough (or correctly enough) the path. > > =============== > > I'd agree with that. The problem is lack of developed >awareness/insight. And what by developed awareness/insight do you mean? As AN5.51 and other suttas say, as long as 5 hindrances are present - you can forget about real insight that develops wisdom and the path. > > > =============== > > Anapanasati itself could fulfill 4 satipatthanas MN118. It also can lead to awakening and Jhanas. > > =============== > > The question we're discussing is whether jhana is a prerequisite for the devlopemnt of insight. There's nothing in M 118 that suggests that it is. > > Nor does M 118 say that enlightenment can be attained by the >development of samatha. It does. Read carefully. anapanasati develops satipatthana. It develops 7 factors of awakening, and through them Arhatship. "This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html > > > =============== > > > It is explained in the texts that a fingersnap of awareness is >kusala of an extremely high degree. > > > > Right, it is very good for all, but it may not be sufficient for all types of individuals to reach maggaphala. If it works for you, great! For the rest of us, there is slower and more mundane path... > > =============== > > The Satipatthana Sutta clearly says that the development of >awareness leads to enlightenment. Right, and Jhana is what removes defilements so there can BE right awareness in the FIRST place (rather than mere thinking). >It does not say that awareness is sufficient for some types but not >for others. There is either yoniso or ayoniso manasikaro. As long as hindrances are present it is already ayoniso and misses the point of being "aware of realities". > > > =============== > > "Just be still, and wait in that stillness. You are not asking for anything, you are not expecting anything. You don't want anything, because all expecting and wanting is the movement of the mind that takes you away from stillness. You are into peace, into stillness. If you get peace and stillness, that's good enough. You just sit there > > watching, and the peace will consolidate. The stillness becomes even more frozen. Just watch as all these stages of meditation happen. ... > > =============== > > I'm afraid I cannot relate any of the above to what is said in the texts. What about the importance of understanding dhammas, seeing their 3 characteristics? > > Jon > As to dukkha. And how are you going to really see 5 aggregates as Dukkha if you don't experientially know any better? Compared to what? How are you going ever to see the three characteristics if defilements are working "beyond the curtains" to avoid you seeing just that. If the bliss of kamaloka is the highest you've experienced in this life, how are you going to experientially know its limitations if it is the limit of your experience? With metta, Alex #107476 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 12:21 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas truth_aerator Hi Mike, Sarah, All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Mike: Thanks for the comments. I understand that if one is practising right livelihood then it involves lots of momentary cittas. > > Mike: In fact, that's my problem: understanding why is it necessary to have specific cetasikas called "right speech/livelihood/etc" when they seem to be referring to a collection of "simple" cetasikas. > > Mike Interesting question. Also as I understand it, the cetasika is a "ultimate reality". Does this means that right speech and right livelihood are "ultimate realities"? Why not take away these sort of strange cetasikas and simply have moments of non-greed, non-hate, non-delusion in the place of \ right speech/livelihood? With metta, Alex #107477 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 12:22 am Subject: The 10 Perfect Qualities... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The are 10 Perfect Mental Qualities! Contemplation of the Ten Perfecting Qualities (Dasa Parami ): 1: May I be generous and always helpfully giving service (D ana parami). 2: May I be morally pure, virtuous and well-disciplined (S ila parami). 3: May I be modest and withdrawing into simple living (Nekkhamma parami). 4: May I be wise by understanding what should be known (Pa?? a parami). 5: May I be enthusiastic, energetic, & never giving up the good (Viriya parami). 6: May I be patient, tolerant, and forgive other's wrongs (Khanti parami ). 7: May I be honest, trustworthy, scrupulous, and truthful (Sacca parami ). 8: May I be firm, resolute, determined, and immovable (Adhitth ana parami). 9: May I be kind, gentle, compassionate and friendly (Mett a parami). 10: May I be calm, balanced, serene and imperturbable (Upekkh a parami). May I train to be mentally perfect. May I be perfect to keep training! <.... Source: BPS Wheel no 54 (Edited Excerpt): The Mirror of the Dhamma. A Manual of Buddhist Devotional Texts. By Narada Thera and Bhikkhu Kassapa. Revised By Bhikkhu Khantipalo: http://www.bps.lk/wh054-u.html Have a nice, noble and utterly perfect day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107478 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 1:51 am Subject: Re: Visiting the historical sites of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, Thank you for your reply. I live in Armidale, NSW. I saw Azita's reply, also received others. Many thanks to them. My plans for visiting the places possibly will be: Lumbini, Kapilavastu; Bodh Gaya, Rajgir, Vaisali; Sarnath, Sravasti, and Kushinagar. Have you been there? How did you book accommodations and transportations? Regards, Thomas Law --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > > --- In ..."thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > > ... books accommodations and transportations for independently visiting the major sites (in Nepal and India) of the historical Buddha? > ... > S: Welcome to DSG! I hope you saw Azita's reply. She'd definitely be a good person to give you advice on this. > > Why not tell us more about your plans and interest in visiting the Holy Places? I really appreciate having had the opportunity to visit them a few times and to see the recent excavations and development of the sites. > > Where abouts in Australia do you live? > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #107479 From: han tun Date: Sat May 8, 2010 2:47 am Subject: Talk on Appamaada (1) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lukas, I take Nina's advice that I will feel better as I start quoting from Sayadaw, as kusala cittas can help a lot for my physical and mental well-being. This serial presentation is also for Lukas who said that he likes to hear more on appamaada. I will present relevant excerpts from the Talk on Appamaada by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. As it is difficult to write in English from the original talk in Burmese, if there is any mistake in my presentation I am solely responsible for it. Sayadaw started with a brief account of the three lay disciples of the Buddha, namely, King Kosala, Anaathapindika, and Visaakhaa. More attention was given to King Kosala who was noted for his "pamaada". [Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote that pamaada is moral laxity, heedlessness, lack of constancy and persistence in the pursuit of self-purification. It is often explained as lack of mindfulness and energy in the development of wholesome qualities. For a formal definition, see Vibh 350 (#846)] The reader may take any translation he/she likes. The translation of Pali into any language can never be completely satisfactory. Sayadaw gave some examples of King Kosala's pamaada. Once, the King invited 500 bhikkhus to have alms-food in his palace everyday, and instructed the palace staff to do the necessary. But he forgot about it altogether, and he was not there to welcome the bhikkhus at the palace the next morning, or mornings thereafter. Only the palace staff had to do the offerings, and some of the staff were not respectful to the bhikkhus. Some disappointed bhikkhus took the alms-food but did not eat at the palace, and took it to some devotee's house to eat it there. The number of bhikkhus who came to the palace for the alms-food and ate it at the palace dwindled day by day. Finally, when the King remembered and came to the palace dining hall after the 5th or the 6th morning, he found there only one bhikkhu, the Venerable Aananda. Ven Aananda was the leader of the 500 bhikkhus, and as a leader, he had to stay back and eat at the palace, while other bhikkhus had left the palace with the alms-food. Although it was his fault, King Kosala was disappointed with the bhikkhus and reported the matter to the Buddha, saying that the bhikkhus came to his palace, took the alms-food from the palace, and ate at other devotees' houses. The Buddha told him that it was not the fault of the bhikkhus, because the King did not welcome them and serve them properly. The Buddha then delivered AN IX.17 Kulasutta.m, which says bhikkhus should not approach the families endowed with nine factors, nor even take a seat, if already approached. What nine? (i) if they do not attend pleasantly [na manaapena paccu.t.thenti], (ii) if they do not worship pleasantly [na manaapena abhivaadenti], (iii) if they do not offer a seat pleasantly [na manaapena aasana.m denti], (iv) if they hide their belongings [santamassa pariguhanti], (v) if they give a little from what they have in plenty [bahukampi thoka.m denti], (vi) if they give inferior things although they have good things [pa.niitampi luukha.m denti], (vii) give carelessly without respect [asakkacca.m denti no sakkacca.m], (viii) do not sit to listen to the Teaching [na upanisiidanti dhammassavanaaya] and (ix) when told something do not listen to it [bhaasitamassa na sussuusanti]. In this way the Buddha gently told the King to be more proper in dealing with the bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus would not come for alms-food to those families who were endowed with the above nine factors. That was a sample of how King Kosala lived his life mostly with pamaada. To be continued. With metta, Han #107480 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 3:04 am Subject: Re: Talk on Appamaada (1) gazita2002 hallo Han, I did not know what appamaada meant, and you have explained it very clearly here, thank you for this. I hope you are well, and that the problems in Bangkok are not disturbing you. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, Lukas, > > I take Nina's advice that I will feel better as I start quoting from Sayadaw, as kusala cittas can help a lot for my physical and mental well-being. This serial presentation is also for Lukas who said that he likes to hear more on appamaada. > > I will present relevant excerpts from the Talk on Appamaada by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. As it is difficult to write in English from the original talk in Burmese, if there is any mistake in my presentation I am solely responsible for it. > .......... #107481 From: "Mike" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 3:40 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas mikenz66 Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Mike, Sarah, All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Mike: Thanks for the comments. I understand that if one is practising right livelihood then it involves lots of momentary cittas. > > > > Mike: In fact, that's my problem: understanding why is it necessary to have specific cetasikas called "right speech/livelihood/etc" when they seem to be referring to a collection of "simple" cetasikas. > > > > Mike > > > Alex: Interesting question. Also as I understand it, the cetasika is a "ultimate reality". Does this means that right speech and right livelihood are "ultimate realities"? Mike: Yes, that's my problem, these "complex" ones sound more like concepts than ultimate realities. If we're going to have statements like "ultimately there is no bowl" then how can we explain that "ultimately there is right livelihood"? > > > Alex: Why not take away these sort of strange cetasikas and simply have moments of non-greed, non-hate, non-delusion in the place of \ > right speech/livelihood? Mike: Yes, thank you for expressing it a more clearly... Mike: Of course, it's not up to us to edit the Abdhidhamma :-) And it's likely that that problem is ("ultimately" :) confusion on my part... Mike #107482 From: han tun Date: Sat May 8, 2010 4:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talk on Appamaada (1) hantun1 Dear Azita, Azita: I did not know what appamaada meant, and you have explained it very clearly here, thank you for this. I hope you are well, and that the problems in Bangkok are not disturbing you. Han: Thank you very much for your kind words. The problems do not disturb us, and it is now being solved. As regards appamaada, please keep on reading the serial, and you will come to a post where I admit I was wrong about the relationship between sati and appamaada. But please have "patience" and wait. Kind regards, Han #107483 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 6:15 am Subject: Re: Talk on Appamaada (1) szmicio Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Azita, > > Azita: I did not know what appamaada meant, and you have explained it very clearly here, > thank you for this. I hope you are well, and that the problems in Bangkok are not disturbing you. > > Han: Thank you very much for your kind words. The problems do not disturb us, and it is now being solved. > As regards appamaada, please keep on reading the serial, and you will come to a post where I admit I was wrong about the relationship between sati and appamaada. But please have "patience" and wait. L: I think now about some other aspect: relation on samma-sati and appamada. Best wishes Lukas #107484 From: han tun Date: Sat May 8, 2010 8:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talk on Appamaada (1) hantun1 Dear Lukas, Lukas: I think now about some other aspect: relation on samma-sati and appamada. Han: It will be useful if you come up with your views on sammaa-sati and appamaada, any time you like. Kind regards, Han #107485 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 8:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - jonoabb Hi Nina (107439) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Howard and Jon, ... > N: You both discuss the hindrances. I just like to add something: I > found an old post by Sarah, a quote and this may interest you. > > on that occasion. > When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma, > alert with keen ears, > attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital > importance, directing > his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances > are absent in him. > On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards > complete fulfilment... > > Source (edited extract): > The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. > Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered... > > > Also when intently listening to the Dhamma there are no hindrnaces. > ------- > Nina. Many thanks for this sutta passage (SN 46:38). Most appropriate to the discussion. Jon #107486 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 9:41 am Subject: Re: Talk on Appamaada (1) szmicio Dear Han, > Han: It will be useful if you come up with your views on sammaa-sati and appamaada, any time you like. L: I think samma-sati refers to sati of satipatthana, this is my feeling. And appamada is more general, like non-forgetfulness of each kind of kusala. I transcribed pamada section from Vibhanga(you were refering to this on your recent post): <(29) Pamaado 846. Tattha katamo pamaado? Kaayaduccarite vaa vaciiduccarite vaa manoduccarite vaa pa~ncasu vaa kaamagu.nesu cittassa vossaggo vossaggaanuppadaana.m kusalaana.m vaa dhammaana.m bhaavanaaya asakkaccakiriyataa asaataccakiriyataa ana.t.thitakiriyataa oliinavuttitaa nikkhittachandataa nikkhittadhurataa anaasevanaa abhaavanaa abahuliikamma.m anadhi.t.thaana.m ananuyogo pamaado, yo evaruupo pamaado pamajjanaa pamajjitatta.m aya.m vuccati pamaado. Therein what is heedlessness? Wrong bodily action or wrong verbal action or wrong mental action or the succumbing or reapated succumbing of consciousness to the five strands of sense pleasures or not working carefully, not working constantly, working spasmodically, being stagnant, relinguishing wish, relinguishing the task, non-pursuance, non-development, non-repetition, non-resolution, non-practising, heedlessness in the development of good states; that which is similar, heedlessness, being heedless, state of being heedlessness. This is called heedlessness.> #107487 From: han tun Date: Sat May 8, 2010 10:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talk on Appamaada (1) hantun1 Dear Lukas (Nina), Lukas: I think samma-sati refers to sati of satipatthana, this is my feeling. And appamada is more general, like non-forgetfulness of each kind of kusala. Han: I will leave your above comment for Nina to consider. My report on sati and appamaada as taught by Sayadaw U Nyanissara will come in my subsequent serial presentation. I thank you very much for the pamaada section from Vibhanga. I do not have that book. With metta and respect, Han #107488 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 8, 2010 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Complex Cetasikas sarahprocter... Hi Mike, (Lukas & all), You raise good points... --- On Sat, 8/5/10, Mike wrote: >Mike: Thanks for the comments. I understand that if one is practising right livelihood then it involves lots of momentary cittas. .... S: We tend to think about right livelihood in a conventional sense, but actually, the practising of right livelihood is momentary. Lukas gave the example of wrong speech at a party and we may be involved in some gossip at work. However, on either occasion, there can be moments of abstaining from wrong speech, moments of appreciating the value of such abstention, such non-harming. A little later we may again be motivated to utter wrong speech. So, there are always momentary cittas, right and wrong livelihood cittas whilst pursuing one's work, right and wrong speech at work or in one's free time. ... >Mike: In fact, that's my problem: understanding why is it necessary to have specific cetasikas called "right speech/livelihood/ etc" when they seem to be referring to a collection of "simple" cetasikas. ... S: They are referring to momentary virati (abstention) cetasikas as part of the 8-fold Path. However, just like in the case of any other cittas or cetasikas, they arise in processes (vithi) and in the course of uttering a few words, there are many, many such processes. The same applies when we talk about metta or dana, for example - many cittas, many processes. However, at a moment of awareness, the characteristic of metta, right speech/livelihood virati or any other reality can be known. The more we study and carefully consider/understand the Teachings, the closer such study comes to the paramattha dhammas themselves. Again, pls let me know if I'm not being clear or if you find this hard to accept. Metta Sarah ======== #107489 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 8, 2010 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visiting the historical sites of the Buddha sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, --- On Sat, 8/5/10, thomaslaw03 wrote: >Thank you for your reply. I live in Armidale, NSW. ... S: Nice spot! We visit Sydney a lot.... (Jon's originally from Adelaide). ... >I saw Azita's reply, also received others. Many thanks to them. >My plans for visiting the places possibly will be: Lumbini, Kapilavastu; Bodh Gaya, Rajgir, Vaisali; Sarnath, Sravasti, and Kushinagar. >Have you been there? How did you book accommodations and transportations? .... S: Actually, yes, we've been a few times. The very first time I went, I travelled independently and it wouldn't even classify as 3rd class....(living in a Tibetan tent in Bodh Gaya etc back in the early 70s). We've been a few times with our Thai friends, Nina and others and then it's all been organised by an agent. Azita went quite recently making her own bookings and so on, so I'd follow her agent's advice. It's useful being able to fly into Gaya from Bangkok now, so that would be quite easy from Syd. Let us know how the trip and your plans go. Some of the trips are quite long and slow - be prepared with lots of patience! Metta Sarah ======== #107490 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 11:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? sarahprocter... Hi Pt, On sabhava, #107255 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > pt: Footnote 1 (from the Saddhammappakaasini i, the Commentary to the Pa.tisambhidamagga):... > > > KO: this explanation by the void of individual essence is in that its essence is independent and it can arise on its own. Even though dhamma has its own characteristics, it cannot arise on its own or by its own essence because its arisen depends on conditions. Just like feeling feels can only arise when citta arise, feelings feel cannot arise on its own even though its characertistics can be perceived. > > pt: I think that's how I understand the commentary quote as well - i.e. it deals with conditionality, hence my initial assumption that the meaning of the term "existence" or sabhava for a dhamma cannot be taken further than including conditionality and characteristics (individual and general). Adding something more than that would be leaning towards eternalism, while less than that (like denying individual characteristics) would be leaning towards annihilationism. ... S: The way sabhava is used and refuted in this text (where it very much refers to atta-belief) is quite different from how it is used in other texts where it refers to the characteristics of dhammas. So we always have to consider the context and the way such terms are being used. Lots on the topic under "sabhava" in U.P., of course! For example, see this one on the Psm text referred to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55086 Metta Sarah ======= #107491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 8, 2010 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (1) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much, I read this with great interest. Very courageous of you to keep on writing on Dhamma, no matter what happens, no matter how you feel. appreciating, Nina. Op 8-mei-2010, om 4:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I will present relevant excerpts from the Talk on Appamaada by > Sayadaw U Nyanissara. As it is difficult to write in English from > the original talk in Burmese, if there is any mistake in my > presentation I am solely responsible for it. #107492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 8, 2010 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pleasure or right speach nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 6-mei-2010, om 21:51 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > This is so hard to speak in a right way. > Sometimes I enjoy in pleasure and say words that are not good, > because this is much more pleasure than right speach. > How do you deal with this? -------- N: When virati cetasika does not arise it is impossible to abstain from wrong speech. It is conditioned. Many moments in our life there is pamaada. How could it be otherwise? We have accumulated many kinds of akusala and when there is an opportunity it arises. More understanding helps most of all. Yesterday's akusala is no more, it is gone completely. Why always thinking of the past? This distracts from attending to the present. Begin again, begin again. Nina. #107493 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 8, 2010 1:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). nilovg Dear Azita and Lukas, Op 7-mei-2010, om 1:04 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > Its hard to have 'patience' with unpleasant feeling, but what else > can one do. Often a bush walk disperses my unpleasant feelings, > however it then becomes pleasant feeling and altho it feels better > there is little kusala involved. > My work keeps me busy and tired which creates unpleasant feeling, > basically I'm lazy and would prefer to just wander in the country:) -------- N: Once in Sri Lanka I was not feeling well and had a lot of unpleasant feeling. I told Bhante Dhammadharo and he said that he knows that such feeling can be very unpleasant. But as I remember, one should not care so much about 'how am I feeling'. Whatever feeling arises is just a conditioned element. But you know this too, having listened a lot to Bhante. Do you remember anything he said about this subject? Your old scribbling book? Lukas likes to know. It is only a type of naama and it is gone already when you think about it. Nina. #107494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 8, 2010 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 7-mei-2010, om 20:03 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: no that is sensual pleasure , not samatha > As I see it , deductions from Abhihamma need to find a relation to > practise ..which I miss quite often though not excluding a lack of > deeper penetration > in the system of Abhidhamma. --------- N: I did not follow all discussions, but this remark I found of interest. Abhidhamma and practice, that is the aim of the Abhidhamma, nothing else. What is the use of all these classifications if we do not see the connection with daily life and practice in daily life. If you like you could indicate where you miss the relation with practice? I understand problems that may arise in this connection and perhaps some clarification could be of use. Nina. #107495 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 1:47 pm Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Mike, all, > S: We tend to think about right livelihood in a conventional sense, >but actually, the practising of right livelihood is momentary. Right. As a series of cittas that can either be rooted in 3 wholesome or 3 unwholesome roots. > S: They are referring to momentary virati (abstention) cetasikas as >part of the 8-fold Path. However, just like in the case of any other >cittas or cetasikas, they arise in processes (vithi) and in the course >of uttering a few words, there are many, many such processes. > Why not just call "right livelihood, etc" as specific instances of non-greed, non-hate and/or non-delusion? After all, in what way is abstention functionally different from one or all of these -> alobha, adosa, amoha? " "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome. 6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome. 7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html All of these actions come from 3 roots that are either wholesome or unwholesome. No mention of specific cetasikas called "right livelihood" etc. That seems superfluous when you already have the the root of wholesome being "Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion" With metta, Alex #107496 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 8, 2010 2:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (322 = 25) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Walshe DN 33.2.1(25) 'Five bases of deliverance (vimuttaayatanaani): Here, (a) the Teacher or a respected fellow-disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight (piiti); and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness (sukha'm) as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established; (b) he has not heard it thus, but in the course of teaching Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it; or (c) as he is chanting the Dhamma ...; or (d) [iii 242] ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it (anupekkhati); or (e) when he has properly grasped some concentration-sign (samaadhi- nimitta'm), has well considered it, applied his mind to it (supadhaarita'm), and has well penetrated it with wisdom (suppa.tividdha'm pa~n~naaya). At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established. ---------- N: Co.: atthapa.tisa.mvedii, dhammapa.tisa.mvedii , understands the meaning and the letter. He understands the meaning of the text and he understands the text (itself). Joy(paamojja) arises in him, and from this joy, delight (piiti): Co: joy is weak rapture, and having become gladness (tu.t.thaa) it is strong rapture. Tiika: Because of formerly arisen rapture, as it were by repetition, it has become gladness. As to kaayo passambhati, the body is calmed. Kayo, according to the co. stands for the mental body, the cetasikas. Tiika: Rapture that has become a power is able to become a condition for calm that can allay the anxiety of the mental body. Therefore, when the mental body is calmed, the physical body is also calmed. The mental happiness that is not worldly (niraamisa) is able to become a condition for concentration of the citta. Co: samaadhi is samaadhi that accompanies the fruition-consciousness of the arahat. Tiika: Meant is not just any concentration, it is the incomparable calm, samaadhi, accompanying the fruition-consciousness of the arahat. Co: After having developed the meditation subject up to access concentration, and developed vipassanaa he reaches arahatship. In this connection it is said that the mind is established. The other ways are explained in the same way. But here is a distinction (in the fifth way): when he has properly grasped some concentration-sign (samaadhi-nimitta.m). Here is reference to the thirtyeight meditation subjects. These are well grasped by the person who learns the meditation subject in the presence of a teacher (aacariyasantike). ------------ N: When he hears the Dhamma from a teacher he understands the meaning and has joy, rapture, calm and concentration. Also teaching to others bears the same fruit. One has the opportunity to deeply consider what one is explaining. This is of benefit both to the speaker and to the listener. The same happens when one is reciting, but this has to be done with understanding. Pondering over the Dhamma, penetrating it with wisdom gives the same result. Four ways do not refer to samatha, but the fifth way refers to the development of the meditation subjects of samatha, and after he has developed vipassanaa he attains arahatship. The samaadhi accompanying the phala-citta of the arahat is the incomparable calm, because all defilements have been eradicated. We read in this sutta about the effects of the study of Dhamma, having joy, rapture, calm and concentration. Not merely pariyatti, but development of the stages of insight will have such effects. In this sutta the importance has been stressed of listening, deeply considering what one hears and applying it. In this connection, we read in the Kindred Sayings V, 94 (Kindred Sayings on the Limbs of Wisdom, Ch IV, 8 Restraint and Hindrance) : ***** Nina. #107497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 8, 2010 3:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? nilovg Dear Mike, Op 7-mei-2010, om 22:30 heeft Mike het volgende geschreven: > "But what quality is most helpful for being willing?..." > > "Desire... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing..." > > "But what quality is most helpful for desire?..." > > "Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas... If one didn't > come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn't > arise..." > ... > ------------- > Presumably the "desire" there is chanda (my grasp of Pali is not > good). ------- N: Yes, correct. It is here wholesome chanda. Not desire for sense objects (chanda raga) ------ Nina. #107498 From: Vince Date: Sat May 8, 2010 4:22 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes cerovzt@... Dear Sarah and rest of beings, I have found this text, in where metta is closely related with anatta, so it would be fully dependent of panna and annata. http://www.zolag.co.uk/mettac.html There is only one thing which I don't see clear, and that is the existence of metta in a spontaneous way, as in the case explained in the previous post. The text explain metta in a progressive way to be associated with the Dhamma practice, then until: "panna, right understanding, knows that what one takes for beings, until "people or self are only mental phenomena, nama dhammas, and physical phenomena, rupa dhammas." But if we think in the case of the previous post, the only possible explanation for that non-mediatized action it's this same one. In a general way, all the human beings we can have a direct access to the truth in a spontaneous way. Although maybe it is not openly supported in Abbhidhamma because it cannot be systematized in a practice. I don't talk of the existence of shortcuts but about the natural expression of the unconditioned, moment after moment. The point is that any person can experience anatta in daily life, and in fact it can be a very common thing. But due to the citta speed, this fact can be covered by our reason, which is the subsequent citta process of delusion. So many people can have a flash of the truth but it would not be "freedom" because later it would be not present in the intellect. Therefore we cannot check it in others or ourselves by means the thought or speech actions. What do you think?. I believe these rare cases of metta are a very interest thing to reflect, because we can check the existence of a sudden access to the truth by means body actions which arises without interference of the reason. best, Vince, #107499 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 5:41 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina, all, you wrote: N: ( D: As I see it , deductions from Abhihamma need to find a relation to practise ..which I miss quite often though not excluding a lack of deeper penetration in the system of Abhidhamma) I did not follow all discussions, but this remark I found of interest. Abhidhamma and practice, that is the aim of the Abhidhamma, nothing else. What is the use of all these classifications if we do not see the connection with daily life and practice in daily life. D: I fully agree N: If you like you could indicate where you miss the relation with practice? I understand problems that may arise in this connection and perhaps some clarification could be of use. D: I think we agree furthermore that practise means Path practise ..but here - so my and probably others' impression too- the group lost somehow the touch with the ground . It is - as I see it - in particular the samadhi part of the path training in which this became and becomes obvious ..in brief a situation when Acharn Cha speaks of 'they don't practise ' and Khun Sujin states ' No understanding ' ... What do you think? with Metta Dieter , #107500 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 8, 2010 6:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 8-mei-2010, om 19:41 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: I think we agree furthermore that practise means Path > practise ..but here - so my and probably others' impression too- > the group lost somehow the touch with the ground . > It is - as I see it - in particular the samadhi part of the path > training in which this became and becomes obvious ..in brief a > situation when Acharn Cha speaks of 'they don't practise ' and Khun > Sujin states ' No understanding ' ... ------ N: Understanding is needed for samatha and for vipassanaa. I read your last quote of the Canki sutta and this fits in very well with the Thai series Kh Sujin gives about kayagatasati. I will come back to this when I have time. Nina. #107501 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 8:19 pm Subject: Re: Pleasure or right speach szmicio Dear Nina, Thank you. Today I reflected on right understanding. It seems that 'our intention' is the foremost condition to bhavana. But this is tricky. We cannot choose intentions, they are conditioned. I think right understanding, right view from the beginning can condition sati and pa~n~na. Very gradually, just daily life. What kind of cetasika right livelihood is? How this is in relation to right speach and right action? Best wishes Lukas > > This is so hard to speak in a right way. > > Sometimes I enjoy in pleasure and say words that are not good, > > because this is much more pleasure than right speach. > > How do you deal with this? > -------- > N: When virati cetasika does not arise it is impossible to abstain > from wrong speech. It is conditioned. Many moments in our life there > is pamaada. How could it be otherwise? We have accumulated many kinds > of akusala and when there is an opportunity it arises. More > understanding helps most of all. Yesterday's akusala is no more, it > is gone completely. Why always thinking of the past? This distracts > from attending to the present. Begin again, begin again. > Nina. > > > #107502 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 8:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (322 = 25) and commentary. szmicio Dear Nina > We read in this sutta about the effects of the study of Dhamma, > having joy, rapture, calm and concentration. Not merely pariyatti, > but development of the stages of insight will have such effects. In > this sutta the importance has been stressed of listening, deeply > considering what one hears and applying it. L: This is good example. For example Howard thinks that there cannot be any development by reading. But this is not true. Best wishes Lukas #107503 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun May 9, 2010 12:30 am Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (322 = 25) and commentary. truth_aerator Dear Lukas, Nina, all, >-- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > Dear Nina > > > We read in this sutta about the effects of the study of Dhamma, > > having joy, rapture, calm and concentration. Not merely pariyatti, > > but development of the stages of insight will have such effects. In > > this sutta the importance has been stressed of listening, deeply > > considering what one hears and applying it. > > L: This is good example. For example Howard thinks that there cannot be any development by reading. But this is not true. > > Best wishes > Lukas There definately can be lots of development from considering a sutta, after one has emerged from Jhana and has super power mindfulness cleared from hindrances, that can sustain deep and powerful attention on what was heard. A simile: A person is lost in the forest in the dark. Suttas without Jhana is like a map without a flashlight. It can't work that well. Obviously I hope that it is clear by now that miraculous stories of people awakening after hearing a discourse, does not apply to us. Not all people today are highest two types that meet the Buddha in person and can reach some stage of awakening right at that spot. IMHO those people have done significant amount of preparation PRIOR to meeting the Buddha on the day they were supposed to be awakened. They were well prepared either from this life or their previous lives. Again, if one can't suppress 5 hindrances temporarily (and be able to easily enter Jhana), then what makes you think that you can abandon the hindrances forever! One has to learn to walk before one can run! With metta, Alex #107504 From: han tun Date: Sun May 9, 2010 12:54 am Subject: Talk on Appamaada (2) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lukas, King Kosala had lived his life mostly with pamaada. While Anaathapindika and Visaakhaa came to pay homage to the Buddha everyday, King Kosala would come only occasionally, and when he came also he was always in a hurry to get back to the palace. He would say he had a lot of work to do: bahu kicca and bahu kara.niiya. The kicca is the work one may do or not do it straight away, but the kara.niiya means one must do it now without fail. So he would give the excuse of plenty of work to do and would leave the Buddha shortly. One day, as usual, he said that he would have to go back to the palace in a hurry, and he requested the Buddha to deliver for him a very, very short discourse (sa"nkhitta-desanaa), but containing all important teachings of the Buddha. He said that like the footprints of all animals fit into the footprint of the elephant, with respect to greatness of size, he would wish all important Buddha's teachings fit into that short discourse (hatthipada-desanaa). The Buddha: "O, King, I will deliver the discourse as you wish. Listen to it carefully". And then the Buddha said: "Appamaadena, mahaaraajaa, sampaadehi" and stopped. ["Appamaadena sampaadehi" was used because the Buddha was addressing only to one person. If the Buddha were addressing to more than one person he would say "Appamaadena sampaadetha"] King Kosala was waiting for what more the Buddha would say. But he did not hear anything more. So he looked up to the Buddha. The Buddha, seeing the perplexed face of King Kosala, said for the second time, "Appamaadena, mahaaraajaa, sampaadehi" and stopped. King Kosala was waiting for what more the Buddha would say. But he did not hear anything more. So he looked up to the Buddha again. And the Buddha repeated for the third time, "Appamaadena, mahaaraajaa, sampaadehi". King Kosala thought something was wrong and requested the Buddha to have compassion on him and deliver the discourse that he had requested, as he had to hurry back to the palace. The Buddha: "O, King, I have already delivered the discourse that you have requested not once, not twice, but for three times even". ---------- Han: From the above, it is clear that the Buddha was fitting all his important teachings into "Appamaadena sampaadehi". Sayadaw U Nyanissara also said the same thing, which you will find in my later posts. Earlier, I quoted a passage: "According to the Commentary, appamaada embraces all the meanings of the words of the Buddha in the Tipi.taka." It is possible that the Commentary observation had some connection with the above King Kosala episode. To be continued. With metta, Han #107505 From: han tun Date: Sun May 9, 2010 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (1) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind words. They are a strong inspiration for me. Respectfully, Han --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (1) To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 8:20 PM Dear Han, Thank you very much, I read this with great interest. Very courageous of you to keep on writing on Dhamma, no matter what happens, no matter how you feel. appreciating, Nina. #107506 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 8, 2010 11:20 pm Subject: Dependent Causation... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: All Things Proceed from a Cause! Dependent Origination is the core chain of causality: Dependent on ignorance arises kammic-construction (moral and immoral); Dependent on kammic-constructions arises rebirth-consciousness; Dependent on consciousness arises mind and body, name-&-form; Dependent on mind and body arise the six sense sources; Dependent on the six sense sources arises contact; Dependent on contact arises feeling; Dependent on feeling arises craving; Dependent on craving arises clinging; Dependent on clinging arises becoming; Dependent on becoming arises birth; Dependent on birth arises decay, ageing, death, sorrow, pain, and despair. In this way arises this whole mass of suffering... With the ceasing of ignorance comes also ceasing of kammic-construction; With ceasing of kammic-construction comes also ceasing of consciousness; With ceasing of consciousness comes ceasing of mind and body, name-&-form; With ceasing of mind and body comes also ceasing of the six sense sources; With ceasing of the six sense sources comes also ceasing of contact; With ceasing of contact comes also ceasing of feeling; With ceasing of feeling comes also ceasing of craving; With ceasing of craving comes also ceasing of clinging; With ceasing of clinging comes also ceasing of becoming; With ceasing of becoming comes also ceasing of birth; With ceasing of birth is there ceasing of ageing, death, sorrow, & despair. In this way ceases this whole mass of suffering... <...> Source: BPS Wheel no 54 (Edited Excerpt): The Mirror of the Dhamma. A Manual of Buddhist Devotional Texts. By Narada Thera and Bhikkhu Kassapa. Revised By Bhikkhu Khantipalo: http://www.bps.lk/wh054-u.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107507 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 8, 2010 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (322 = 25) and commentary. upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 5/8/2010 4:41:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Nina > We read in this sutta about the effects of the study of Dhamma, > having joy, rapture, calm and concentration. Not merely pariyatti, > but development of the stages of insight will have such effects. In > this sutta the importance has been stressed of listening, deeply > considering what one hears and applying it. L: This is good example. For example Howard thinks that there cannot be any development by reading. But this is not true. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, this is not true: Howard does NOT think there cannot be any development by reading! (You should be a bit more careful in your assumptions and judgements. ) What I think is that reading, study, listening, and contemplation are insufficient. but they ARE among requisite conditions for development. Moreover, for people with appropriate accumulations due to prior practice, even in previous lives, a single "turning word," as the Zen folks call it, may be all that is further needed for awakening. ------------------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107508 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun May 9, 2010 4:04 am Subject: Re: Dependent Causation... thomaslaw03 Dear friends, According to Choong Mun-keat, "Chapter 6. Causal condition" in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A comparative study based on the Sutra-anga portion of the Pali Samyutta-Nikaya and the Chinese Samyukta-agama (= Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden), pp. 150-205, the teaching of 'Dependent Causation' is presented in the early Buddhist texts in different numbers of factors. The notion of the twelve factors is one of them, though is the usual or full sequence of the teaching. The chapter is a comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Nidana Samyutta, including the Sanskrit source text. It is very useful to read for studyng 'Causal condition' or 'Dependent Causation' of Early Buddhism. It also has great value for just reading the whole book. Sincerely, Thomas Law --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > > > Friends: > > All Things Proceed from a Cause! > > > > Dependent Origination is the core chain of causality: > Dependent on ignorance arises kammic-construction (moral and immoral); > Dependent on kammic-constructions arises rebirth-consciousness; > Dependent on consciousness arises mind and body, name-&-form; > Dependent on mind and body arise the six sense sources; > Dependent on the six sense sources arises contact; > Dependent on contact arises feeling; > Dependent on feeling arises craving; > Dependent on craving arises clinging; > Dependent on clinging arises becoming; > Dependent on becoming arises birth; > Dependent on birth arises decay, ageing, death, sorrow, pain, and despair. > In this way arises this whole mass of suffering... > > > > With the ceasing of ignorance comes also ceasing of kammic-construction; > With ceasing of kammic-construction comes also ceasing of consciousness; > With ceasing of consciousness comes ceasing of mind and body, name-&-form; > With ceasing of mind and body comes also ceasing of the six sense sources; > With ceasing of the six sense sources comes also ceasing of contact; > With ceasing of contact comes also ceasing of feeling; > With ceasing of feeling comes also ceasing of craving; > With ceasing of craving comes also ceasing of clinging; > With ceasing of clinging comes also ceasing of becoming; > With ceasing of becoming comes also ceasing of birth; > With ceasing of birth is there ceasing of ageing, death, sorrow, & despair. > In this way ceases this whole mass of suffering... > > <...> > > Source: BPS Wheel no 54 (Edited Excerpt): > The Mirror of the Dhamma. A Manual of Buddhist Devotional Texts. > By Narada Thera and Bhikkhu Kassapa. Revised By Bhikkhu Khantipalo: > http://www.bps.lk/wh054-u.html > > Have a nice & noble day! > > > Friendship is the Greatest! > Bhikkhu > Samahita _/\_ Sri > <...> > #107509 From: Sukinder Date: Sun May 9, 2010 4:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sukinderpal Hi Ken, You wrote: > >Suk: It is probably due to the way I phrased it, but I think you > >misunderstood what I was pointing at. > >The objection to ‘method’ wasn’t simply because I judged it to be > >concept. I had no doubt that you knew to distinguish intellectually, > >reality from concepts. If I remember correctly, you thought that I was > >concerned about papanca while engaging in meditation, I therefore tried > >to point out in the above, that the papanca is in the very conceiving of > >method and idea of meditation. In other words it is the proliferation of > >view which sees ‘methods’ in what in fact are descriptions of mental > >states giving rise then to wrong practice which is what I was pointing > >to, and not that ‘method’ or ‘meditation’ are concepts. I mean, ‘apple’ > >is a concept, would I be suggesting that conceiving this is wrong? So > >what is the difference between this and ‘methods’ in the context of > >samatha or vipassana bhavana? Do you see my point now? > > KO: apple is a concept definitely. so does breathing > meditation. So does that mean the very idea of breathing meditiaton > is papanca or the dhamma that arise with it. > Sukin: Sure it is all about dhammas arising to perform their functions and falling away. And when I state that the idea of 'meditation' as put forward by you and others is wrong, this is not pointing to any characteristic of concepts, they after all have none, but to the wrong view behind the conceiving of the idea. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #107510 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 9, 2010 6:20 am Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (322 = 25) and commentary. szmicio Dear Alex, > There definately can be lots of development from considering a sutta, after one has emerged from Jhana and has super power mindfulness cleared from hindrances, that can sustain deep and powerful attention on what was heard. > > A simile: A person is lost in the forest in the dark. Suttas without Jhana is like a map without a flashlight. It can't work that well. L: What about ~nana? ~nana eradicts all defilments/hindrances. Best wishes Lukas #107511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 9, 2010 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Causation... nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 9-mei-2010, om 6:04 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > A comparative study based on the Sutra-anga portion of the Pali > Samyutta-Nikaya and the Chinese Samyukta-agama (= Beitrage zur > Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden), pp. 150-205, > the teaching of 'Dependent Causation' is presented in the early > Buddhist texts in different numbers of factors. The notion of the > twelve factors is one of them, though is the usual or full sequence > of the teaching. ------- N: True, there are different numbers, also in Theravada. Sometimes the Buddha begins at the middle of the chain, sometimes at the end, going backwards. There are not twelve factors all the time. Nina. #107512 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 9, 2010 9:20 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina , all, you wrote: 'N: Understanding is needed for samatha and for vipassanaa. I read your last quote of the Canki sutta and this fits in very well with the Thai series Kh Sujin gives about kayagatasati. I will come back to this when I have time.' D: conc. samatha and vipassana , I like to quote from a book review (R. Shankman :'The Experience of Samadhi ' which I think is of interest for this issue: http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/book-review-the-experience-of-sa\ madhi-by-richard-shankman/ with Metta Dieter 'Shankman concludes that the suttas (he is mainly considering the Anapanasati Sutta (Mindfulness of Breathing), the Satipatthana Sutta (Foundations of Mindfulness), and the Kayagatasati Sutta (Mindulness of the Body)) are ambiguous as to the necessity of jhana and Samadhi for liberation. There are points where these suttas seems to say one needs both jhana and insight and points where this is less clear. But Shankman argues that the suttas have more of an integration of concentration and insight than the Visuddhimagga. Overall the suttas claim that from the concentration states of the jhanas, one can go into insight. The Visuddhimagga is more clear saying that one does not necessarily need to do extensive concentration practice and that concentration and insight practices can be seen as separate paths. In the interviews section the reader gets to see how these ideas are applied in modern meditation instriction. There is some variety of interpretation among the teachers interviewed, however, many are more in line with the sutta interpretation where samadhi is integrated with insight practices. Jack Kornfield believes in a broad, inclusive approach to meditation practice. He states that we need the range of skillful means for techniques of meditation and we can benefit from all perspectives. Ajahn Thanissaro states that there is no clear line between mindfulness and concentration. As well Christina Feldman finds that insight and concentration are not separate paths but should be used in conjunction. Bhante Gunaratana says that concentration needs the support of insight and concentration can aid in mindfulness as well. Ajahn Brahmavamso as well sees this as an integrated path so is more in line with the sutta interpretation. Although he emphasizes that one can use the teachings of the Visuddhimagga but one should be discriminating. Sharon Salzberg, however, emphasizes moment to moment mindfulness over formal samadhi and jhana practices, so this is more practical for daily life. Leigh Brasington focuses on teaching the jhanas, but feels the jhanas are a warm-up to insight practice. And finally Pa-Auk Sayadaw places the Visuddhimagga and sutta interpretations together saying that one must follow the teachings of the Visuddhimagga in the context of the suttas. He teaches his students to first accomplish jhanas and then can go into insight practice. Thus there is a range of ideas of how to teach meditation-how much samadhi and jhana practice to do, how much insight practice and when, and the role of concentration toward the goal of liberation. Because the suttas are ambiguous and many teachers today treat the Visuddhimagga more discriminatively as a commentary, rather than an authority in itself, there can be these different ideas of what is best when teaching Theravada meditation practices. The unique thing about this book is that one can read about teachers discussing deep levels of meditation-their own experiences and those of their students. I am more used to reading and listening to dhamma talks that focus more on applying meditation to daily life-how to deal with emotions and how to begin the practice of meditation. This book instead shows the beginner and more advanced practitioner where the path of meditation can lead. Thus the information here goes much further toward showing how to attain the ultimate goals of the path using classical sources and modern interpretations. Obviously this is some heavy material and one has to read slowly to understand it. It also helps if one has meditated and can know from experience the different states of mind that are being discussed. But for any reader who wants to more fully understand the role of concentration within Theravada meditation, this is an excellent book and worth the effort. I also recommend this book to those who have a teacher within Theravada meditation to see where their practice fits into the spectrum of interpretation and the other possibilities that are available. unquote and R. Shankman's note Conclusion The Visuddhimagga presents a path of meditation and the states within it that is new and distinct from the Pali suttas. The Meditative Path In the Visuddhimagga, insight meditation and the path of concentration and tranquility were necessarily separated because in the fixed concentration of the Visuddhimagga insight could arise only upon leaving jhana. In the Visuddhimagga, the entire reason for developing tranquility is to attain jhana in order to then turn to other practices for cultivating insight. The suttas, however, do not make such a clear distinction. The suttas never clearly articulate a dry path of pure insight in which jhana plays no role. In the suttas: 1) The practice of right samadhi seems to integrate tranquility and insight into a single meditative path. 2) Mindfulness meditation is a concentration practice leading toward jhana; insight meditation is not a separate practice. The Visuddhimagga introduces several other concepts and terms that are not found in the suttas: Preparatory, access and attainment concentration, as well as the signs, nimittas, accompanying these stages, are not found in the suttas. The word nimitta does appear in the suttas in connection with right concentration, but there it simply means 'theme' or 'basis' of concentration, and is equated with the four foundations of mindfulness. MN44.12 The forty meditation subjects can be found in the suttas, but many are only mentioned peripherally, often with little or no explanatory detail. #107513 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 9, 2010 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 9-mei-2010, om 11:20 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > The Visuddhimagga introduces several other concepts and terms that > are not found in the suttas: Preparatory, access and attainment > concentration, as well as the signs, nimittas, accompanying these > stages, are not found in the suttas. --------- N: Thank you for the info. I just want to add something. I quote from my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, a footnote: Date: Sun May 9, 2010 1:03 pm Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) jonoabb Hi Alex (107475) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 > =============== Surely it's the insight, rather than the jhana, that breaks the fetters. > =============== > > I'd agree with that. The problem is lack of developed >awareness/insight. > > And what by developed awareness/insight do you mean? > =============== I'm referring to the awareness described in the Satipatthana Sutta. > =============== > As AN5.51 and other suttas say, as long as 5 hindrances are present - you can forget about real insight that develops wisdom and the path. > =============== At moments of akusala the 5 hindrances are present, at moments of kusala (whether dana, sila or bhavana) they're not. > =============== > anapanasati develops satipatthana. It develops 7 factors of awakening, and through them Arhatship. > > "This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html > =============== The sentence you've quoted here does not support the proposition that anapanasati develops satipatthana; we would first need to know what constitutes the "This is how". > =============== > > The Satipatthana Sutta clearly says that the development of >awareness leads to enlightenment. > > Right, and Jhana is what removes defilements so there can BE right awareness in the FIRST place (rather than mere thinking). > =============== The idea that there can be no awareness, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta, of any level or kind without there first being jhana is not just not stated or implied anywhere in the texts. > =============== > There is either yoniso or ayoniso manasikaro. As long as hindrances are present it is already ayoniso and misses the point of being "aware of realities". > =============== Yes, but there can be the absence of hindrances without having to attain jhana first. When the citta is kusala, the hindrances are not present. At every moment of dana, sila or bhavana the hindrances are (momentarily) overcome. When, for example, there is awareness of dosa, there are no hindrances present at the moments of awareness, even though it may seem that the dosa is continuous. > =============== > As to dukkha. And how are you going to really see 5 aggregates as Dukkha if you don't experientially know any better? Compared to what? How are you going ever to see the three characteristics if defilements are working "beyond the curtains" to avoid you seeing just that. If the bliss of kamaloka is the highest you've experienced in this life, how are you going to experientially know its limitations if it is the limit of your experience? > =============== The characteristics of dhammas become gradually apparent as awareness/understanding of dhammas is developed. Of course, the penetration of those characteristics requires very highly developed awareness/understanding. But the development of awareness/understanding can begin at any time. No expectation of immediate or dramatic results. I'd still be interested to know the textual basis for an instruction to "just be still, and wait in that stillness ... just sit there watching, and the peace will consolidate". Is it suggested that this is samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana (or some other kind of kusala)? Jon #107515 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 9, 2010 1:50 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 13. the Four Great Elements. nilovg Dear friends, The four Great Elements. Ruupas, material phenomena, are not mere textbook terms, they are realities that can be directly experienced. Ruupas do not know or experience anything; they can be known by naama. Ruupa arises and falls away, but it does not fall away as quickly as naama. When a characteristic of ruupa such as hardness impinges on the bodysense it can be experienced through the bodysense by several cittas arising in succession within a process. But even though ruupa lasts longer than citta, it falls away again, it is impermanent. Ruupas do not arise singly, they arise in units or groups. What we take for our body is composed of many groups or units, consisting each of different kinds of ruupa, and the ruupas in such a group arise together and fall away together. There are four kinds of ruupa, the four ?Great Elements? (Mahaa- bhuuta ruupas), which have to arise together with each and every group of ruupas, no matter whether these are ruupas of the body or ruupas outside the body. The types of ruupa other than the four Great Elements depend on these four ruupas and cannot arise without them. They are the following ruupas: the Element of Earth (pa.thaviidhaatu) or solidity the Element of Water (aapodhaatu) or cohesion the Element of Fire (tejodhaatu) or heat the Element of Wind (vaayodhaatu) or motion Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not in this context have the same meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent conceptual ideas as we find them in different philosophical systems. In the Abhidhamma they represent ultimate realities, specific ruupas each with their own characteristic. The element of earth, pa.thavii dhaatu, translated into English as ?solidity? or ?extension?, has the characteristic of hardness or softness. It can be directly experienced when we touch something hard or soft. We do not have to name this ruupa ?element of earth? in order to experience it. It is an element that arises and falls away; it has no abiding substance, it is devoid of a ?self?. We take softness and hardness of the body for self, but these are only elements arising because of conditions. It may seem that hardness can last for some time, but in reality it falls away immediately.The hardness that is experienced now is already different from the hardness that arose a moment ago. The element of earth appears as hardness or softness; the element of fire as heat or cold; the element of wind as motion or pressure. These three elements can be experienced by touch. The element of water cannot be experienced through touch, but only through the mind- door. When we touch what we call water, cold which is the element of fire, or hardness, which is the element of earth, can be directly experienced. Every day we experience a great variety of sense objects, but they are, in fact, only different compositions of ruupa elements. When we touch a cushion or chair, tangible object may appear, such as hardness or softness. We used to think that a cushion or chair could be experienced through touch. When we are more precise, it is hardness or softness that can be experienced through touch. Because of remembrance of former experiences we can think of a cushion or chair and we know that they are named ?cushion? or ?chair?. This example can remind us that there is a difference between ultimate realities and concepts we can think of but which are not real in the ultimate sense. Viewing the body and the things around us as different combinations of ruupas may be new to us. Gradually we shall realize that ruupas are not abstract categories, but that they are realities appearing in daily life. --------- Nina. #107516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 9, 2010 2:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pleasure or right speech nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 8-mei-2010, om 22:19 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What kind of cetasika right livelihood is? > How this is in relation to right speach and right action? --------- N: It is one of the three virati cetasikas, which are sobhana cetasikas. It abstinence from wrong speech or wrong action with regard to our livelihood. One may abstain from telling lies pertaining to obtain a promotion in one's job. I heard something this morning on wrong speech: Does one only ponder over one's wrong speech or is one also intent on kusala through body or speech for others? One can ask forgiveness. This can be done with kusala citta. ------ Nina. #107517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 9, 2010 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, > > Dieter quotes: > "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The > message is this: The fortress stands for this body - composed of > four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & > barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & > falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense > media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of > messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight > (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for > consciousness. The central square stands for the four great > elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire- > property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for > Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for > the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, > right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, > right concentration." ----------- N: I like this passage very much. Kh Sujin spoke at length about the foulness of the body. Sometimes the objects of samatha and vipassanaa are shown together in one sutta, she said. There cannot be satipa.t.thaana all the time, we cannot prevent thinking. But when we hear about the parts of the body again and again it can help us to think of the body in the wholesome way, as I wrote to Lukas. Thinking of foulness can condition kusala citta with calm. So also in the beginning of your quote: In sickness the foulness appears very clearly: when smelling unpleasant odour, or seeing disgusting things. But instead of aversion there can be mettaa and karu.naa. In your quote we also read: < this body - composed of four elements>. We can also view this body as elements. And this can be with insight, which will lead to eradication of the idea of self in the body. We cannot choose what type of citta will arise and we should not say:'I do not take this object'. There should be no limitation to the object of awareness. It may be time for calm, it may be time for right understanding of naama and ruupa. We cannot predict what will arise. Your quote: 'The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana).' These can go together and they do go together in the development of the eightfold Path. -------- Nina. #107518 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 9, 2010 4:58 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'N: Thank you for the info. D: much have been written about the understanding of samatha and of vipassanaa, in particular due to claims of different interpretations of the suttas and Vis.M. / commentaries , not to talk about the necessity of Jhanas for enlightenment. I liked the review because it shows in brief that some of the problematic may in practise be of less importance. N: I just want to add something. I quote from my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, a footnote: Date: Sun May 9, 2010 5:07 pm Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) truth_aerator Hi Jon, Lukas, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107475) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 > > =============== > > Surely it's the insight, rather than the jhana, that breaks the >fetters. But insight depends on 5 hindrances being temporarily gone. AN5.51 > > =============== > > As AN5.51 and other suttas say, as long as 5 hindrances are present - you can forget about real insight that develops wisdom and the path. > > =============== > > At moments of akusala the 5 hindrances are present, at moments of >kusala (whether dana, sila or bhavana) they're not. But not all moments are powerful enough. To think that you can gain arhatship with "normal" awareness is almost like asking someone to dig earth with a spoon. It is not powerful enough to dislodge strong defilements. Otherwise you'd be an Arahant by now. > > > =============== > > anapanasati develops satipatthana. It develops 7 factors of awakening, and through them Arhatship. > > > > "This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html > > =============== > > The sentence you've quoted here does not support the proposition >that anapanasati develops satipatthana; " "[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this ? the in-&-out breath ? is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this ? careful attention to in-&-out breaths ? is classed as a feeling among feelings, [6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html >we would first need to know >what constitutes the "This is how". here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html > > > =============== > > > The Satipatthana Sutta clearly says that the development of >awareness leads to enlightenment. > > > > Right, and Jhana is what removes defilements so there can BE right awareness in the FIRST place (rather than mere thinking). > > =============== > > The idea that there can be no awareness, as described in the >Satipatthana Sutta, of any level or kind without there first being >jhana is not just not stated or implied anywhere in the texts. Satipatthana isn't the only sutta in Sutta Pitaka. AN5.51 settles it: ""Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Period. If you are > > > =============== > > There is either yoniso or ayoniso manasikaro. As long as hindrances are present it is already ayoniso and misses the point of being "aware of realities". > > =============== > > Yes, but there can be the absence of hindrances without having to >attain jhana first. For whom and with what accumulations? Some people have done so much preparatory steps prior to *meeting* the Buddha, that they didn't need that. Their hindrances were suppressed and have not fully regrown. Not every person has very few defilements which can be easily overcomed with just considering. If you can, good for you. >When the citta is kusala, the hindrances are not present. At every >moment of dana, sila or bhavana the hindrances are (momentarily) >overcome. If one cannot reach Jhana when hindrances are not present, then I wonder if the hindrances are really not present. If one cannot suppress hindrances temporarily and enter Jhana (an easier attainment than stream-entry, right?) then what makes you think that one can become a stream-enterer or Higher? When, for example, there is awareness of dosa, there are no hindrances present at the moments of awareness, even though it may seem that the dosa is continuous. > > > =============== > > As to dukkha. And how are you going to really see 5 aggregates as Dukkha if you don't experientially know any better? Compared to what? How are you going ever to see the three characteristics if defilements are working "beyond the curtains" to avoid you seeing just that. If the bliss of kamaloka is the highest you've experienced in this life, how are you going to experientially know its limitations if it is the limit of your experience? > > =============== > > The characteristics of dhammas become gradually apparent as >awareness/understanding of dhammas is developed. And strongly and rapidly after Jhana. > > Of course, the penetration of those characteristics requires very highly developed awareness/understanding. But the development of awareness/understanding can begin at any time. No expectation of immediate or dramatic results. > > I'd still be interested to know the textual basis for an >instruction to "just be still, and wait in that stillness ... To start with, "just be still" it is done with wisdom and understanding. It is also a part of progression in the suttas "...tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html >just sit there watching, and the peace will consolidate". Is it >suggested that this is samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana (or some >other kind of kusala)? > > Jon Both samatha & vipassana as part of N8P. Both are needed. With metta, Alex #107520 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 9, 2010 5:43 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'N: I like this passage very much. D: it reminds very well on the interrelation , doesn't it? N: Kh Sujin spoke at length about the foulness of the body. Sometimes the objects of samatha and vipassanaa are shown together in one sutta, she said. There cannot be satipa.t.thaana all the time, we cannot prevent thinking. But when we hear about the parts of the body again and again it can help us to think of the body in the wholesome way, as I wrote to Lukas. Thinking of foulness can condition kusala citta with calm. So also in the beginning of your quote: Date: Mon May 10, 2010 12:29 am Subject: Computer out of order hantun1 Dear Friends, My computer is out of order. Han #107522 From: Kevin F Date: Mon May 10, 2010 1:46 am Subject: Reply to Nina about Pali farrellkevin80 Hi Friends, This is from a reply I sent to Nina via e-mail, as a response to one an e-mail she sent me. It concerns the Pali traslations: Hi Nina. Thank you so much for writing. I am still reading DSG quite frequently although I did miss that message somehow. I have been reading a lot. I just haven't seen any threads that I wished to respond to so far. The Pali isn't going so great. I am working and am in school and I get tired. I am not sure if I should take on the task. I do tend to get many things done in my life; however, I also have a tendency sometimes to start projects with a lot of fire that burns out quickly. This might be one of those. Nevertheless, we will see how I feel in the future. I hope you and Lodewijk are doing well. How is he? Kevin #107523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 10, 2010 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to Nina about Pali nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 10-mei-2010, om 3:46 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > The Pali isn't going so great. I am working and am > in school and I get tired. I am not sure if I should take on the > task. I do tend to get many things done in my life; however, I also > have a > tendency sometimes to start projects with a lot of fire that burns out > quickly. This might be one of those. Nevertheless, we will see how I > feel in the future. > > I hope you and Lodewijk are doing well. How > is he? ------- N: It is kind of you to reply and inquire after Lodewijk. I find that he is better, but not gaining the 8 kilos he lost yet. I spent a lot more time in the kitchen but with success. Only I have less time for writing now. Food is better than medicine. As to your Pali: I would say, go slowly, that is better. Just a little at a time. Perhaps a book is easier because then you can glance at it when you have a spare moment. All the best, Nina. #107524 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 10, 2010 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 9-mei-2010, om 19:43 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: what we can and must do in practise is - basing on sila / > wholesome action - the fourfold effort , providing a wholesome > direction, e.g. in order to remain focused on a certain object as > described by the four frames of satipatthana. Without focus there > is hardly any real investigation possible. > Right understanding of naama and ruupa needs calm or peace of mind/ > a certain absence of the hindernisses .. > I think this issue marks our main difference in respect to path > practise -------- N: At the moment of right understanding the citta is kusala and there is already peace, absence of the hindrances. There is already right focus or concentration, no need to try to focus. When we do that it may be motivated by an idea of self. Nina. #107525 From: si-la-nanda Date: Sun May 9, 2010 1:52 pm Subject: Paritta recitation for the protection from fear, trembling & horror ... silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, Paritta for the protection from fear, trembling & horror. Recite these verses 9 times. mahakaruna silananda ********************************************************** Dhajagga Sutta the Discourse on the Crest of the Banner *f**or *protection against fear, trembling and horror 1. Yassa-nussaranenapi, antalikkhepi panino; patittham-adhigacchanti, bhumiyam viya sabbatha. By merely remembering this discourse, the beings will get a foothold even when they are in the skies, just like there is a foothold on the earth. 2. Sabbupaddava jalamha, yakkha coradisambhava; ganana na ca muttanam, parittam tam bhanama he. Due to the power of this Paritta, those who recite it can be freed from the network of all dangers created by devils, thieves and so on. The number of such beings who are saved from danger is indeed innumerable. Oh Noble Ones! Let us recite this Paritta. continue: source: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books9/Paritta_Protection.htm#Dhajagga #107526 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 9, 2010 11:16 pm Subject: The 3 Signs... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Three Signs of all Existence! The Blessed Buddha once pointed out: All constructions are impermanent! When realizing that by understanding, one gets disgusted with suffering... This is the path to purity! All constructions are miserable! When realizing that by understanding, one gets disgusted with suffering...This is the path to purity! All states are no-self! When realizing that by understanding, one gets disgusted with suffering... This is the path to purity! Dhammapada 277-79 <...> Source: BPS Wheel no 54 (Edited Excerpt): The Mirror of the Dhamma. A Manual of Buddhist Devotional Texts. By Narada Thera and Bhikkhu Kassapa. Revised By Bhikkhu Khantipalo: http://www.bps.lk/wh054-u.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <..> #107527 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon May 10, 2010 12:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your comments and the link. Best wishes pt > S: The way sabhava is used and refuted in this text (where it very much refers to atta-belief) is quite different from how it is used in other texts where it refers to the characteristics of dhammas. So we always have to consider the context and the way such terms are being used. Lots on the topic under "sabhava" in U.P., of course! For example, see this one on the Psm text referred to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55086 #107528 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon May 10, 2010 4:50 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dear Nina , you wrote: Dear Dieter, Op 9-mei-2010, om 19:43 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: what we can and must do in practise is - basing on sila / > wholesome action - the fourfold effort , providing a wholesome > direction, e.g. in order to remain focused on a certain object as > described by the four frames of satipatthana. Without focus there > is hardly any real investigation possible. > Right understanding of naama and ruupa needs calm or peace of mind/ > a certain absence of the hindernisses .. > I think this issue marks our main difference in respect to path > practise -------- N: At the moment of right understanding the citta is kusala and there is already peace, absence of the hindrances. There is already right focus or concentration, no need to try to focus. D: as I said here our major misunderstanding ( or is it disagreement ?) shows up. You talk about the moment of right understanding and I suppose you have again 'the cittas arising in the process during which enlightenment occurs ' in mind. I am trying to convey that the Dhamma teaches/ instructs us what we have to do in order that this event eventually occurs. Repeating the standard : as sila supports the foundation of samadhi (incl. Satipatthana) , samadhi supports the foundation of panna (right understanding /view and right thinking/right resolve) , i.e. the guidelines of the 3 fold path training. So moral and meditation are means to develop right understanding and on its way to perfection by deep penetration into the 4 Noble Truths there are many insights which support this process . N: When we do that it may be motivated by an idea of self. D: well , Nina .. we know that we are still attached to the khandas, aren't we ? And disbelieving in a truth of self does not yet help us to overcome the deeper fetters , like conceit for example . Anatta needs to be realized not only be assumed. So of course we must work/train with which is now available to us (chanda an important issue) It seems that there is a view , that by (reading and) listening to the Dhamma the 'formal training ' like some call it , can be neglected , so getting straight to the decisive point of right understanding . There are indeed a number of suttas telling us , that the moment of enlightenment may occur just due to that (depending of course on accumulation of insight), but besides that these occasions were even at that time likely rare exceptions , the spirituality of that age (not only in India) has never been really reached in history again. Recently a text was quoted in which the Buddha stated that while listening to the Dhamma his disciples would develop all (seven) links to enlightenment. Lucky disciples to experience the living Buddha ... There are plenty of sources telling us that simply listening - hearsay- isn't enough, it must be translated into practise ... seeing for oneself.. penetration means working with the mind not just waiting for the moment that the conditions of samma ditthi (in particular the Dhamma Eye) eventually may take place with Metta Dieter #107529 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon May 10, 2010 10:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ---------- <. . .> KH: > > . . . to understand dhammas as anatta you must first know what dhammas are. Most Buddhists these days are looking for anatta in concepts. > > KO:?> Understanding anatta is not about differentiating conventional reality and ultimate reality.? It is the understanding of dhamma that help one to understand anatta.? Even concepts can help one to understand dhamma as anatta.?? ---------- That's fair enough - provided we know that concepts do not have the anatta characteristic. There is no point in thinking that you and I - as persisting entities - are devoid of persisting entities. That would be nonsensical. Only dhammas are anatta. ------------------- <. . .> KH: > > If listening and reading are seen as methods for developing samatha and vipassana then there is wrong view and a wrong path is being followed. <. . .> > KO:?> without listening and reading, we cannot develop further understanding of dhamma.? ------- That's true, but, if you continue to understand listening and reading in the conventional way, you have not yet got the message! ----------- KO: > Any development starts from listening which is a conventional action that take on conceptuals objects.? ----------- In reality there are no conventional actions, there are only dhammas. ----------------- KO: > It cannot be paramatha dhamma when one listen.? As long as there is repeated behaviour, it is a method irregardless it is standard formulae or not.?? We must differentiate actions from kusala or aksuala, if listening is aksuala, then it would be impossible for one to develop panna. ----------------- Listening, in the ultimate sense, is a citta - a dhamma - and it can be either kusala or akusala. However, listening in the conventional sense is ultimately an illusion, and therefore it is neither kusala nor akusala. ----------------------- KH: > > Do you want to direct the mind? If you do, it is because you don't understand that there is only the present moment. There is no "you" who will continue on to a future moment. So you will never experience the object you are trying to direct the mind to. Nor will anyone else experience it,there are only dhammas. KO:?> Not whether one want or not, dhamma will direct.? When one listen to dhamma, the dhamma cetana and vitakka will direct the mind to the object of listening.? If there is no directing of the mind towards an object, one cannot listen. ------------------------ Good, I am glad we agree on that. Listening (like anything else in reality) will happen when there are conditions for it to happen. So there is no "method" for listening. There is no method for anything, there are only uncontrolled dhammas. Ken H #107530 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 1:23 am Subject: concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >KenH: concepts do not have the anatta characteristic. That is wrong view. ALL things/phenomena are anatta. Concepts are inconstant, unsatisfactory and not self. They do have differentiating characteristics, for if they did not, then how would we distinguish one concept from another? Even "pink flying elephant" as a concept exists, but what it points to does not (though taken separately they do exist. Pink as color exists. Flying as mode of transportation exists. Elephant as an animal exists). All of the words that you read are concepts. Since you can distinguish one word from another, and since these words written in this post were not always present, they are inconstant. With metta, Alex #107531 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 2:57 am Subject: Re: concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---- KH: > > concepts do not have the anatta characteristic. > > A" > That is wrong view. ALL things/phenomena are anatta. ---- Perhaps I should have said, "Things that do not exist do not have characteristics. Things that do exist, have characteristics." ------------------- A: > Concepts are inconstant, unsatisfactory and not self. ------------------- Actually, concepts aren't anything. That's why they are called concepts - to distinguish them from things that are. ---------------------- A: > They do have differentiating characteristics, for if they did not, then how would we distinguish one concept from another? ---------------------- By thinking and guessing (conceptualising). ------------------------ A: > Even "pink flying elephant" as a concept exists, ------------------------ You are reducing the notion of existence to a level where it has no meaning. ----------------------------- A: > but what it points to does not (though taken separately they do exist. Pink as color exists. Flying as mode of transportation exists. Elephant as an animal exists). All of the words that you read are concepts. Since you can distinguish one word from another, and since these words written in this post were not always present, they are inconstant. ------------------------------ The Buddha taught the Dhamma in order that we could see through conventional reality to a world where there were only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. Why don't you try it? :-) Ken H #107532 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 5:18 am Subject: Re: concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada szmicio Hi Alex, > >KenH: concepts do not have the anatta characteristic. > > That is wrong view. ALL things/phenomena are anatta. > > Concepts are inconstant, unsatisfactory and not self. > > They do have differentiating characteristics, for if they did not, then how would we distinguish one concept from another? Only 5 khnadhas have anatta characteristic. Only they can be known. Concepts cant be known. When thinking, then citta experience a concepts. This characteristic of experience can be known, but concepts no. Best wishes Lukas #107533 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 11, 2010 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada nilovg Dear Alex and Ken H, Op 11-mei-2010, om 3:23 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: KenH: concepts do not have the anatta characteristic. > A: That is wrong view. ALL things/phenomena are anatta. --------- N:I heard from Kh Sujin that also concepts are anattaa, because they are not self. Concepts do not have any characteristics that appear, and we cannot say of them that they are impermanent or dukkha. But they are anattaa. Nothing is excluded from anattaa. Nina. #107534 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 11, 2010 9:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, I select only a few points. I am not so inclined to argue or debate. Op 10-mei-2010, om 18:50 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > N: At the moment of right understanding the citta is kusala and > there is already peace, absence of the hindrances. There is already > right > focus or concentration, no need to try to focus. > > D: as I said here our major misunderstanding ( or is it > disagreement ?) shows up. > You talk about the moment of right understanding and I suppose you > have again 'the cittas arising in the process during which > enlightenment occurs ' > in mind. -------- N: No, not yet. I am thinking of the process during which right understanding is being developed, from life to life. --------- D: There are plenty of sources telling us that simply listening - hearsay- isn't enough, it must be translated into practise ... seeing for oneself.. penetration means working with the mind not just waiting for the moment that the conditions of samma ditthi (in particular the Dhamma Eye) eventually may take place -------- N: No, not just waiting, I agree. Developing right understanding just now, not delaying it. And together with it, all other kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. But we cannot tell citta to do this or that or to take such or such object. We do not own citta. Nina. #107535 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 10:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada kenhowardau Hi Nina, --------- > N:I heard from Kh Sujin that also concepts are anattaa, because they > are not self. > > Concepts do not have any characteristics that appear, and we cannot > say of them that they are impermanent or dukkha. But they are > anattaa. --------- N:I heard from Kh Sujin that also concepts are anattaa, because they are not self. Concepts do not have any characteristics that appear, and we cannot say of them that they are impermanent or dukkha. But they are anattaa. Nothing is excluded from anattaa. ---------- Thanks Nina, I read that years ago at DSG, and for a long while afterwards I tried to avoid saying only dhammas were anatta. Once or twice I said concepts also were anatta "but only by default." But more recently I have preferred to say they were not anything (including anatta). Sometimes I even go so far as to say that concepts are atta (because they don't exist). But I will admit that I am being too clever there for my own good. :-) It seems to me that there are two ways of using concepts. One is as conventional names for dhammas, in which case they would be anicca dukkha and anatta. The other is as alternative realities, in which case they would be completely illusory. It also seems to me that only a Buddha could use concepts 100% as mere conventional names for dhammas. The rest of us see them in various ways as something other than dhammas. At best, we see them as ultimately illusory, but that is still not the same as seeing them the way a Buddha does - as mere conventional designations. While we continue to see them that way (as something other than dhammas) I prefer not to say they have the anatta characteristic. It gives them a credibility they don't deserve. ------------ N: > Nothing is excluded from anattaa. ------------ And concepts are ultimately nothing. :-) Ken H #107536 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 12:30 am Subject: The Highest Blessing... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the Highest Blessing? Thus have I heard: On one occasion the Exalted One was dwelling at the monastery of Anathapindika, in Jeta?s grove, near Savatthi. Now when the night was far spent a certain deity, whose surpassing radiance illuminated the entire Jeta Grove, came to the presence of the Exalted One. After drawing near, he respectfully saluted Him and stood at one side. Standing thus, he addressed the Exalted One in verse: Many deities and men wishing to know what is good, have pondered on the blessings and auspicious signs of luck. Tell me what is the highest blessing? What is the best protection? The Blessed Buddha responded: Not to associate with fools, but only with the wise. To honour only those who are worthy of honour. This is the highest blessing & also the best protection. To live in a suitable place, to have done merits in the past, and to set oneself on the right path. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. Great learning, good skills, a highly trained discipline, and a pleasant speech. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. The support of father and mother, the cherishing of wife and children, and a peaceful job. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. Generosity, pure morality, the helping of relatives, and blameless behaviour. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. To avoid all evil action, to abstain from intoxicants, and firmness in virtue. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. Reverence, humility, contentment, gratitude & hearing the Dhamma in time. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. Patience, respect, sight of calm recluses and suitable conversation in time. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. Self-control, living the Noble life, realising the Noble Truths and Nibbana. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. The be unmoved by the 8 worldly conditions # sorrowless, stainless, & safe. This is the highest blessing and also the best protection. Having fulfilled all these requirements, everywhere they are undefeated, everywhere they go in safety, fearing nothing, cooled, calmed and serene... These are the highest blessings and also the best protections! #: Gain and loss, fame and disrespect, praise and blame, happiness & sorrow. Source: Sutta Nipata Sn 258-269 in BPS Wheel no 54 (Edited Excerpt): The Mirror of the Dhamma. A Manual of Buddhist Devotional Texts. By Narada Thera and Bhikkhu Kassapa. Revised By Bhikkhu Khantipalo: http://www.bps.lk/wh054-u.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Highest Blessing... #107537 From: "sandahaung" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 11:35 am Subject: Re: The Highest Blessing... sandahaung This translation sheds new light to my understanding of mingalar. Thanks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > > > Friends: > > What is the Highest Blessing? > > Thus have I heard: On one occasion the Exalted One was dwelling at the > monastery of Anathapindika, in Jeta's grove, near Savatthi. Now when the > night was far spent a certain deity, whose surpassing radiance illuminated > the entire Jeta Grove, came to the presence of the Exalted One. After > drawing near, he respectfully saluted Him and stood at one side. Standing > thus, he addressed the Exalted One in verse: > Many deities and men wishing to know what is good, have pondered on the > blessings and auspicious signs of luck. Tell me what is the highest > blessing? > What is the best protection? <...> #107538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 11, 2010 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 11-mei-2010, om 12:13 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > I prefer not to say they have the anatta characteristic. It gives > them a credibility they don't deserve. ------ N: I completely understand you. I was puzzled at first by what Kh Sujin said. But it is a way of looking at them. But in general I am not inclined to stress concepts a lot. ------ Nina. #107539 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 11, 2010 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 5/11/2010 6:14:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Nina, --------- > N:I heard from Kh Sujin that also concepts are anattaa, because they > are not self. > > Concepts do not have any characteristics that appear, and we cannot > say of them that they are impermanent or dukkha. But they are > anattaa. --------- N:I heard from Kh Sujin that also concepts are anattaa, because they are not self. Concepts do not have any characteristics that appear, and we cannot say of them that they are impermanent or dukkha. But they are anattaa. Nothing is excluded from anattaa. ---------- Thanks Nina, I read that years ago at DSG, and for a long while afterwards I tried to avoid saying only dhammas were anatta. Once or twice I said concepts also were anatta "but only by default." But more recently I have preferred to say they were not anything (including anatta). Sometimes I even go so far as to say that concepts are atta (because they don't exist). But I will admit that I am being too clever there for my own good. :-) It seems to me that there are two ways of using concepts. One is as conventional names for dhammas, in which case they would be anicca dukkha and anatta. The other is as alternative realities, in which case they would be completely illusory. It also seems to me that only a Buddha could use concepts 100% as mere conventional names for dhammas. The rest of us see them in various ways as something other than dhammas. At best, we see them as ultimately illusory, but that is still not the same as seeing them the way a Buddha does - as mere conventional designations. While we continue to see them that way (as something other than dhammas) I prefer not to say they have the anatta characteristic. It gives them a credibility they don't deserve. ------------ N: > Nothing is excluded from anattaa. ------------ And concepts are ultimately nothing. :-) Ken H ================================== Ken, I lean towards your perspective on this. Yet I still see a semantic problem. Thinking is an activity that occurs. While thinking is underway, there seem to be involved "things" called "concepts," but in fact there is only the thinking. It seems to me that whenever we say something along the lines of "Concepts are X" we are already speaking incoherently, even if the X is 'unreal', for as soon as we predicate "concepts" - as soon as we use the word as subject or object, we are speaking of nothing at all and yet simultaneously by the very uttering of "concepts" implying the existence of concepts. A statement to the effect that concepts are X is ultimately neither true nor false but meaningless. In particular, and most dramatically, when saying that concepts are unreal or nonexistent, we contradict ourselves, for the very mention of concepts presumes their existence. What we need to say is "There are no such things as concepts." From an ulimate perspective, the sentences 'Concepts are anicca' and 'Concepts are nicca' are each neither true nor false, but nonsense, precisely because there ain't no such things as concepts. When we say that trees change we speak conventional truth but ultimate nonsense, and when we say that trees don't change we speak conventional falsehood and also ultimate nonsense. Why? Because there are ultimately no such things as trees. There is just the activity of thinking-of-trees. The thinking, based on interrelationships among dhammas, involves mental grouping of related phenomena, but that grouping is just a thinking activity. (I also think that the so called paramattha dhammas are merely conventional realities and ultimate fictions, but that issue had best be left on the back burner.) With metta, Howard Unreal /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #107540 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 5:25 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Dera Nina, all, you wrote: 'I select only a few points. I am not so inclined to argue or debate.' D: fine , neither am I ;-) N: No, not just waiting, I agree. Developing right understanding just now, not delaying it. And together with it, all other kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. D: ok ..common ground , it is the means we obviously differ ( standard sila, samadhi,panna training) N:But we cannot tell citta to do this or that or to take such or such object. We do not own citta. D: we don't own citta , but our reaction (present kamma) towards it (previous kamma) is a major factor of future citta (becomes future kamma.) I think you remember the S.N. Sutta. The opportunity of kusala kamma just now of which you are talking about , means nothing else than right effort in our reaction , certainly an activity, i.e. the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things . This issue is seemlingy disputed ( my impression from numerous list discussion )...and I can't understand at all why.....? with Metta Dieter #107541 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 5:59 pm Subject: Re: concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada truth_aerator Dear KenH, Lucas, all, > ---- > KH: > > concepts do not have the anatta characteristic. > > > > > A" > That is wrong view. ALL things/phenomena are anatta. > ---- > > Perhaps I should have said, "Things that do not exist do not have >characteristics. Things that do exist, have characteristics." Does word "pink" exist? Does word "flying" exist? Does word "elephant" exist? How can concepts not be known if you understand the above? Isn't pink and not-pink (such as black, ie) is distinguishable in your mind? Do you know the difference between lets say flying and walking? So how can you say that they don't exist and are not experienced? To which khandha do words refer to? Primarily to sanna khandha (although it comes with other mental aggregates as well). Without 5 aggregates there is no basis for concepts, thus they are based ON 5 aggregates. > Actually, concepts aren't anything. That's why they are called >concepts - to distinguish them from things that are. They are still words. Each word is distinguishible from another word. Because of this, they DO have differences and thus characteristics. One is not aware of ALL words at once and the written text, such as this one, was not always known by KenH. Thus there is rise of knowledge of words. When you forget them after reading this text, they don't exist for you. Thus they have rise and fall. > > ---------------------- > A: > They do have differentiating characteristics, for if they did not, then how would we distinguish one concept from another? > ---------------------- > > By thinking and guessing (conceptualising). Right. Since thoughts and concepts are distinct from other thoughts and concepts, they have characteristics. > ------------------------ > A: > Even "pink flying elephant" as a concept exists, > ------------------------ > > You are reducing the notion of existence to a level where it has no >meaning. Concepts have meaning in as far as conveing information. Since you understand what is being said here, using concepts, they do exist in this mode. With metta, Alex #107542 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 6:02 pm Subject: concepts have characteristics truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenH, Lukas, all, > N: Concepts do not have any characteristics that appear, and we >cannot say of them that they are impermanent or dukkha. But they >are >anattaa. Nothing is excluded from anattaa. If concepts don't have any characteristics, then how can we distinguish one concept from the another concept? Please answer this one question. I am glad that we agree on anatta part. With metta, Alex #107543 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue May 11, 2010 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada kenhowardau Hi Howard and Nina, -------- H: > Ken, I lean towards your perspective on this. Yet I still see a semantic problem. -------- Yes, judging from what you have written I would say we have basically the same perspective on this. I'm not sure, however, why you added, "yet I still see a semantic problem." I think we have agreed it is one big semantic problem. ----------------------- H: > Thinking is an activity that occurs. While thinking is underway, there seem to be involved "things" called "concepts," but in fact there is only the thinking. It seems to me that whenever we say something along the lines of "Concepts are X" we are already speaking incoherently, even if the X is 'unreal', for as soon as we predicate "concepts" - as soon as we use the word as subject or object, we are speaking of nothing at all and yet simultaneously by the very uttering of "concepts" implying the existence of concepts. A statement to the effect that concepts are X is ultimately neither true nor false but meaningless. In particular, and most dramatically, when saying that concepts are unreal or nonexistent, we contradict ourselves, for the very mention of concepts presumes their existence. ----------------------- I agree with all of that, and perhaps it explains why Nina prefers not to talk so much about concepts. --------------------------- H: > What we need to say is "There are no such things as concepts." From an ulimate perspective, the sentences 'Concepts are anicca' and 'Concepts are nicca' are each neither true nor false, but nonsense, precisely because there ain't no such things as concepts. When we say that trees change we speak conventional truth but ultimate nonsense, and when we say that trees don't change we speak conventional falsehood and also ultimate nonsense. Why? Because there are ultimately no such things as trees. There is just the activity of thinking-of-trees. The thinking, based on interrelationships among dhammas, involves mental grouping of related phenomena, but that grouping is just a thinking activity. ----------------------------- Yes, more agreement! People must understand that the Dhamma is about absolute realities, as distinct from concepts. Once they have understood that, however, there is not much need to talk about concepts any more. --------------------------------------- H: > (I also think that the so called paramattha dhammas are merely conventional realities and ultimate fictions, but that issue had best be left on the back burner.) --------------------------------------- Normally, I would have treated that with the contempt it deserved. :-) However, you followed up with a very nice quote: ----- > /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," ? such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) ----- Without knowing the Pali, I do like the translation "this is all unreal." It is more concise and has more impact than, "This is all not conventionally real," or, "This is all not self." But, even so, I am sure those more wordy translations contain the true meaning. A monk doesn't see unreality. He sees the ugly, naked reality of the conditioned world. Ken H #107544 From: han tun Date: Wed May 12, 2010 2:16 am Subject: Talk on Appamaada (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lukas, My computer is alright, and I will now continue. I have prepared only four installments. This installment is the most important. It contains how tipi.taka can be fitted into appamaada, and whether appamaada and sati are the same. It is quite long, but I cannot break it up into more parts as it is very important. ---------- King Kosala requested the Buddha to deliver a very short discourse that contains all the important teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha said "Appamaadena, mahaaraajaa, sampaadehi" three times. As King Kosala could not appreciate the meaning of the short discourse, the Buddha explained further as follows. "ye keci, mahaaraajaa, kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado tesa.m agga.makkhaayati." All wholesome states have roots at the appamaada dhamma [or appamaada is the root of all kusala dhammas], have converged and entered into the appamaada dhamma, and thus, among all these wholesome states, appamaada is declared as the top-most of them all. Sayadaw said that King Kosala now became very much interested. Before, he wanted to rush back to the palace. Now, he wanted to hear more. He wanted to know how all these kusala dhammas fit into appamaada. He was wondering what actually this appamaada is? ---------- At this point, Sayadaw explained in detail, what had been taught by the Budhha, during the 45 years. Sayadaw talked about pariyatti, learning; pa.tipatti, practicing; and pa.tivedha, the penetrative knowledge. He talked about sutta pi.taka, vinaya pi.taka, and abhidhamma pi.taka. He talked about siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa. He said that siila is bodily and verbal discipline, samaadhi is mental discipline, and pa~n~naa is the purification of the mind from defilements. To have the mental discipline, sati is the key element. The mind protected by sati brings about happiness. The mind unprotected by sati brings about suffering. Sati protects the mind from the external enemies, the five kaama gu.na aaramma.na. Sati protects the mind from the internal enemies, the five hindrances. The Buddha taught the significance of sati in satipa.t.thaana. In summary, Sayadaw emphasized that the sati, therefore, is very important and that appamaada is sati! ---------- Han: I thank Nina for encouraging me to listen to the Sayadaw again. I listened this tape some years ago and had forgotten some of the contents. Now, after listening to it again, I realized that I was harboring a wrong idea that sati and appamaada are not the same, and that sati is narrower and more limited than appamaada. Now, Sayadaw said appamaada is sati! I remember what Nina wrote: [Appamaada is broader, it includes many realities that all work together. As to being more significant, here I hesitate. When we see sati in the whole context of all the sobhana cetasikas as classified in the Abhidhamma and in the context of satipa.t.thaana, it is very significant. We should not see it as being isolated. In the context of satipa.t.thaana, it arises with right understanding of realities.] How right you are, Nina. That is why I used to say that you never make mistakes! ---------- Sayadaw U Nyanissara then talked more about sati. Sati has the characteristic of not wobbling, i.e., not floating away from the object (apilaapana lakkha.naa). Its function is absence of confusion or non-forgetfulness (asammosarasaa). It is manifested as guardianship (aarakkhapaccupa.t.thaanaa). Its proximate cause is strong perception (thirasa~n~naa pada.t.thaanaa). Sayadaw said that the Buddha saasanaa can be summarized into the three training doctrines (sikkhaa), namely, siila, samaadhi, and pa~n~naa, and sati is the key for all three. In the observance of precepts, sati is essential. If there is no sati, the siila will be easily broken. Sati is also necessary for samaadhi, because no one can have samaadhi straight away, and it has to be started with sati. So also with pa~n~naa. All vipassanaa ~naanas have to be started with sati. And the Buddha teaches us the significance of sati in Satipa.t.thaana sutta and Aanaapaanasati sutta. Here, Sayadaw referred to a passage from MN 118 Aanaapaanasati sutta. So I will reproduce it from the translation by Bhikkhu Nanmoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi. "When the four foundations of mindfulness are developed and cultivated, they fulfill the seven enlightenment factors. When the seven enlightenment factors are developed and cultivated, they fulfill true knowledge and deliverance." Cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa bhaavitaa bahuliikataa satta bojjha"nge paripuurenti. Satta bojjha"ngaa bhaavitaa bahuliikataa vijjaavimutti.m paripuurenti. Thus, sati is the main essence of the three training doctrines, and can be considered as the main essence of the entire Buddha saasanaa itself. For this reason, Sayadaw also said that the tipi.taka can be fitted into one word, the "sati". When the Buddha said: "ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado tesa.m aggamakkhaayati", appamaada means sati. When the Buddha repeatedly warns us to have "appamaadena sampaadetha", appamaada means sati. Han: If the above interpretation is accepted, there is no more problem as to the comparison between sati and appamaada, because they are one and the same thing! To be continued. With metta, Han #107545 From: han tun Date: Wed May 12, 2010 2:19 am Subject: To Lukas: Re: Talk on Appamaada (1) hantun1 Dear Lukas, You wrote before: [I think samma-sati refers to sati of satipatthana, this is my feeling. And appamada is more general, like non-forgetfulness of each kind of kusala.] I agree with you that sammaa-sati refers to sati of satipa.t.thaana. It is also the sati in 5 Faculties (indriyas), 5 Powers (balas), 7 Enlightenment factors (bojjhangas), and 8 Noble Path (maggangas). As regards, appamaada I had thought that it is the most significant of all wholesome dhammas, and it is much wider and more significant than sati. But now, Sayadaw U Nyanissara said appamaada and sati are the same. So, I cannot say anything more. You will have to draw your own conclusion. with metta and respect, Han #107546 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 12, 2010 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts have characteristics nilovg Dear Alex, Op 11-mei-2010, om 20:02 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > If concepts don't have any characteristics, then how can we > distinguish one concept from the another concept? Please answer > this one question. > > I am glad that we agree on anatta part. ------- N: Your question is food for thinking. I would say thinking distinguishes different names. We do in daily life. But names are not paramattha dhammas. I like to stress that thinking itself is a paramattha dhamma. No self, but citta thinks of many different things. ------- Nina. #107547 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 12, 2010 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada nilovg Hi Howard, Ken H, You have an interesting discussion. Can I add a little something? Op 11-mei-2010, om 14:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The thinking, based on > interrelationships among dhammas, involves mental grouping of > related phenomena, but > that grouping is just a thinking activity. (I also think that the > so called > paramattha dhammas are merely conventional realities and ultimate > fictions, > but that issue had best be left on the back burner.) ------- N: I like to explain again what paramattha dhammas are. Howard, touch the table. Hardness appears, no name, no thinking is necessary. It has a characteristic that can be directly experienced. No need to name it hardness. Once you understand the difference between characteristics and names it will be easier to know what a concept is and what a paramattha dhamma. Nina. #107548 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed May 12, 2010 11:40 am Subject: Re: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) jonoabb Hi Alex (107519) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > But insight depends on 5 hindrances being temporarily gone. AN5.51 > =============== At every moment of kusala consciousness the 5 hindrances are 'temporarily gone'. Thus there's no need for jhana in order for kusala of the various levels (including awareness) to arise. (A point I've mentioned often but which you don't seem to appreciate ;-)) > =============== > > At moments of akusala the 5 hindrances are present, at moments of >kusala (whether dana, sila or bhavana) they're not. > > But not all moments are powerful enough. To think that you can gain arhatship with "normal" awareness is almost like asking someone to dig earth with a spoon. It is not powerful enough to dislodge strong defilements. Otherwise you'd be an Arahant by now. > =============== Please consider the assurance of enlightenment given at the end of the Satipatthana Sutta. To me, this means that all moments of awareness count towards attaining enlightenment. So I don't agree with your analogy of digging earth with a spoon. The appropriate analogy is more like the stone being gradually worn away by dripping water. > =============== > > The sentence you've quoted here does not support the proposition >that anapanasati develops satipatthana; > > " "[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this ? the in-&-out breath ? is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. > =============== To my reading, the key passage here is the sentence beginning "On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ...". I see this as describing the development of awareness/insight (the same awareness/insight as is described in the Satipatthana Sutta). So I would read this paragraph as saying: In the case of a monk who is developing samatha with breath as object, he is aware of rupas generally or of breath in particular ["the body"]. Likewise, the following 3 paragraphs of the sutta describe the monk who is who is developing samatha with breath as object and who is aware of various other dhammas. To my understanding, it is the arising of awareness in one who is developing samatha that constitutes the "how" in the passage "This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." > =============== > AN5.51 settles it: > > ""Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." > =============== Nothing in the above says or implies that jhana is a prerequisite for the development of awareness. > =============== > > Yes, but there can be the absence of hindrances without having to >attain jhana first. > > For whom and with what accumulations? > =============== For everyone, the presence of kusala consciousness means the absence of the hindrances. That's just the way things are. > =============== Some people have done so much preparatory steps prior to *meeting* the Buddha, that they didn't need that. Their hindrances were suppressed and have not fully regrown. > =============== The preparatory steps that had been taken by those who became enlightened were the development of awareness and insight over many lifetimes to the stage where only a slight incremental increase in insight was needed to attain enlightenment. It was not a matter of the hindrances having been suppressed. > =============== > If one cannot suppress hindrances temporarily and enter Jhana (an easier attainment than stream-entry, right?) then what makes you think that one can become a stream-enterer or Higher? > =============== The questions you pose here are based on certain assumptions that, to my reading, are not supported by the texts. The Satipatthana Sutta, and in particular the assurance of enlightenment given at the end, the makes it clear that suppression by jhana is not a prerequisite to the development of the path. > =============== > > The characteristics of dhammas become gradually apparent as >awareness/understanding of dhammas is developed. > > And strongly and rapidly after Jhana. > =============== We're not discussing whether awareness is stronger or more rapid after jhana; we're discussing whether jhana is a prerequisite. > =============== > > I'd still be interested to know the textual basis for an >instruction to "just be still, and wait in that stillness ... > > To start with, "just be still" it is done with wisdom and understanding. > =============== I don't think it's possible for "just be still" to be 'done with wisdom and understanding'; this implies that we can 'do things with understanding' by choice/intention/effort. I don't think understanding can be summoned up like that. > =============== > >just sit there watching, and the peace will consolidate". Is it >suggested that this is samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana (or some >other kind of kusala)? > > Both samatha & vipassana as part of N8P. Both are needed. > =============== I don't recognise anything in the passage as being samatha or vipassana as described in the texts. Jon #107549 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 12, 2010 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts have characteristics upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex) - In a message dated 5/12/2010 3:46:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Alex, Op 11-mei-2010, om 20:02 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > If concepts don't have any characteristics, then how can we > distinguish one concept from the another concept? Please answer > this one question. > > I am glad that we agree on anatta part. ------- N: Your question is food for thinking. I would say thinking distinguishes different names. We do in daily life. But names are not paramattha dhammas. I like to stress that thinking itself is a paramattha dhamma. No self, but citta thinks of many different things. ------- Nina. ============================== Yes, it is the thinking/conceiving that differs. The thinking that constitutes the "seeing of a tree" and that which constitutes the "seeing of a car" are distinguishable, but the alleged tree that is seen and the alleged car that is seen are not only not entities that are seen and also not entities that are cognized, for there are no such entities at all. There are merely multitudes of interrelated sights seen during a span of time that serve as basis for mental "constructions". With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness and Object /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #107550 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 12, 2010 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/12/2010 3:53:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Ken H, You have an interesting discussion. Can I add a little something? Op 11-mei-2010, om 14:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The thinking, based on > interrelationships among dhammas, involves mental grouping of > related phenomena, but > that grouping is just a thinking activity. (I also think that the > so called > paramattha dhammas are merely conventional realities and ultimate > fictions, > but that issue had best be left on the back burner.) ------- N: I like to explain again what paramattha dhammas are. Howard, touch the table. Hardness appears, no name, no thinking is necessary. It has a characteristic that can be directly experienced. No need to name it hardness. ----------------------------------------------------- I understand what you mean, Nina. But naming is not all there is to conceptualization. Observing hardness as an entity, even unnamed, is already thinking. ------------------------------------------------------ Once you understand the difference between characteristics and names it will be easier to know what a concept is and what a paramattha dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------- I do understand, but I do not agree. My take: The experienced quality of felt hardness varies, starting at a moment unable to be pinpointed (an ungraspable moment), rising in intensity, leveling off, subsiding, and ceasing at a moment unable to be pinpointed, and having varied in quality (and not only intensity) throughout. It is a *convention* to designate a well-delineated "hardness dhamma" that was experienced, a useful convention for navigating this world of illusion but convention nonetheless. ------------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness and Object /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #107551 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 12, 2010 12:51 pm Subject: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I'm so thankful for having heard the Dhamma.... We're likely to be relocating/retiring to Sydney sooner or later and are very, very busy with a flat purchase there on the beach, a flat sale here and lots of time working on finances, bank mortgages and so on. This week we've been having agents and photographers come through which has meant a major clear out/clean up and a lot of phone calls and visitors, flower purchases and almost everything put away in cupboards....looks great, but I can no longer find basics or use the kitchen. Posts and books have all been banished from my desk too for now... Just daily life. Just seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching with long, long stories in between..... We think our circumstances are special, but everyone has circumstances, everyone has long stories. Really they're just dreams, all to be left behind at the end of this life.... Anyway, this is meant as a bit of an explanation as to why I've not been able to write much recently. I appreciate reading all the threads and good reminders in the meantime... And of course, apologies for the many posts I've not yet replied to in the last 2 or 3 mths. Your comments have all been most welcome as usual. One step at a time, one citta at a time..... Metta Sarah ===== #107552 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 12, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One step at a time, one citta at a time.... nilovg Dear Sarah, I symphatize, a lot of trouble. And we all have our stories, I like your reminders. Lodewijk gained just one kilo, and this is my story. Hours in the kitchen to make very, very appetizing food. What a dream. Nina. Op 12-mei-2010, om 14:51 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Just daily life. Just seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and > touching with long, long stories in between..... We think our > circumstances are special, but everyone has circumstances, everyone > has long stories. Really they're just dreams, all to be left behind > at the end of this life.... #107553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 12, 2010 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts have characteristics nilovg Hi Howard, very good. Nina. Op 12-mei-2010, om 14:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are > merely multitudes of interrelated sights seen during a span of time > that > serve as basis for mental "constructions". #107554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 12, 2010 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada nilovg Hi Howard, I have a feeling that you make things complicated here. We do not have to think of hardness, it is just plain hardness. And when sati sampaja~n~na arises it is known that hardness is not mine, only a condiitoned ruupa. This can be realized without using words. I think that it is not important knowing whether it gains intensity or is leveling off. There is no time, since it appears and then disappears so fast. But this has to be realized by insight, stage by stage. One step at a time:-)) Nina. Op 12-mei-2010, om 14:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Once you understand the difference between characteristics and names > it will be easier to know what a concept is and what a paramattha > dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > I do understand, but I do not agree. > My take: The experienced quality of felt hardness varies, starting at > a moment unable to be pinpointed (an ungraspable moment), rising in > intensity, leveling off, subsiding, and ceasing at a moment unable > to be > pinpointed, and having varied in quality (and not only intensity) > throughout. It is > a *convention* to designate a well-delineated "hardness dhamma" > that was > experienced, a useful convention for navigating this world of > illusion but > convention nonetheless. #107555 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 12, 2010 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt nilovg Dear Dieter, Perhaps in U.P. under four right efforts. You will find numerous posts by Jon, from years ago, when I first came to the list. Nina. Op 11-mei-2010, om 19:25 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > i.e. the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome > things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things . > > This issue is seemlingy disputed ( my impression from numerous list > discussion )...and I can't understand at all why.....? #107556 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 12, 2010 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/12/2010 10:30:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I have a feeling that you make things complicated here. We do not have to think of hardness, it is just plain hardness. And when sati sampaja~n~na arises it is known that hardness is not mine, only a condiitoned ruupa. This can be realized without using words. I think that it is not important knowing whether it gains intensity or is leveling off. --------------------------------------------------- I think that IS important, Nina, because it shows that it, a felt hardness for example, is not a single, lasting thing. Also it does not exist only during a zero-duration moment, for nothing exists in zero time. It certainly isn't good to reify the usual macroscopic, conventional objects, but it is even worse to do so with unobserved, alleged infinitesimal phenomena. It is best not to think in terms of separate "things". All our splintering of experience into "separate realities" is, IMO, at best a matter of convention and at worst a matter of delusion. The reality of our experience is a flow of content that is ever-changing in quality, is ungraspable, and is merely "parsed" as convenient. --------------------------------------------------- There is no time, since it appears and then disappears so fast. But this has to be realized by insight, stage by stage. One step at a time:-)) Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Nothing of Its Own /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ #107557 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 12, 2010 12:28 pm Subject: A Question upasaka_howard Hi, all - In DN 2 there is the following paragraph: "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these — talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not — he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether things exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it seems to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? Anyone? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107558 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed May 12, 2010 5:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts have characteristics truth_aerator Hello Howard, Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Alex) - > > In a message dated 5/12/2010 3:46:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > Dear Alex, > Op 11-mei-2010, om 20:02 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > If concepts don't have any characteristics, then how can we > > distinguish one concept from the another concept? Please answer > > this one question. > > > > I am glad that we agree on anatta part. > ------- > N: Your question is food for thinking. I would say thinking > distinguishes different names. We do in daily life. But names are not > paramattha dhammas. I like to stress that thinking itself is a > paramattha dhamma. No self, but citta thinks of many different things. > > ------- > Nina. > ============================== >H: Yes, it is the thinking/conceiving that differs. Right, and all thinking is conceptual (even if it is thinking about paramattha). Since thinking can be seen to appear and disappear - it is impermanent. Since thinking is beyond full control - it is anatta and ultimately dukkha too. With metta, Alex #107559 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed May 12, 2010 6:00 pm Subject: Re: A Question szmicio Dear Howard, This is amazing passage you gave. I am aware I am involved in all of this. Like watching news on TV. But this is only a reminder, and this point us to investigate wheather citta is kusala or akusala now. Best wishes Lukas > "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, > are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these ?" talking about > kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and > drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; > villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the > street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical > discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, > and talk of whether things exist or not ?" he abstains from talking about > lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." > Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether things > exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it seems > to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? Anyone? > With metta, > Howard > Seamless Interdependency > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > #107560 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed May 12, 2010 6:51 pm Subject: Re: A Question truth_aerator Dear Lukas, Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > This is amazing passage you gave. I am aware I am involved in all of this. Like watching news on TV. But this is only a reminder, and this point us to investigate wheather citta is kusala or akusala now. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, > > are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these ?" talking about > > kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and > > drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; > > villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the > > street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical > > discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, > > and talk of whether things exist or not ?" he abstains from talking about > > lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." > > Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether things > > exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it seems > > to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? Anyone? > > With metta, > > Howard Howard asked a good question. ""It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.069.than.html I wonder what exactly does it mean the "talk of whether things exist or not" ? With metta, Alex #107561 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed May 12, 2010 7:04 pm Subject: Re: A Question szmicio Dear Alex, > Howard asked a good question. > > > ""It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.069.than.html > > > I wonder what exactly does it mean the "talk of whether things exist or not" ? L: You can wonder whether in DSG there is so many topic of control, Self, or whether things exist or not, but this depends only if citta is kusala or not. Best wishes Lukas #107562 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed May 12, 2010 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) (107556) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > I think that IS important, Nina, because it shows that it, a felt > hardness for example, is not a single, lasting thing. Also it does not exist > only during a zero-duration moment, for nothing exists in zero time. It > certainly isn't good to reify the usual macroscopic, conventional objects, but > it is even worse to do so with unobserved, alleged infinitesimal phenomena. > =============== I think Nina's point is that at the moments that hardness is being experienced there is a quality of hardness appearing that can be known directly as just that, the quality of hardness. This knowing occurs independently of any idea of momentary phenomena or whatever other description one understands at an intellectual level to be the way things are. As to the alleged error of 'reifying' infinitesimal phenomena of zero-duration occurrence, this is a matter that is separate from the issue of directly experiencing the quality of hardness (or whatever). But the Buddha spoke of 'dhammas', and I understand this term to refer to momentary phenomena; if there's some other explanation, I haven't heard it yet ;-)) > =============== > It is best not to think in terms of separate "things". All our > splintering of experience into "separate realities" is, IMO, at best a matter of > convention and at worst a matter of delusion. The reality of our experience > is a flow of content that is ever-changing in quality, is ungraspable, and > is merely "parsed" as convenient. > =============== One's understanding of the teachings in this regard (separate realities vs. flow of content) is a separate matter, since any direct experiencing is necessarily at a more general level than would enable one or the other of these hypotheses to be confirmed.' Jon #107563 From: han tun Date: Thu May 13, 2010 1:27 am Subject: Talk on Appamaada (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lukas, This is my last installment. ---------- Sayadaw U Nyanissara then talked about how to apply sati in satipa.t.thaana, and some of the verses from Appamaada vagga of Dhammapada. I will not go into these, as all of these are in the books. Sayadaw then came back to the Appamaada sutta and explained briefly about the various examples of appamaada. As a Dhamma gift, I will print below the entire sutta translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi with the Pali text. ---------- AN 10.15 Appamaada Sutta, (1) Yaavataa, bhikkhave, sattaa apadaa vaa dvipadaa vaa catuppadaa vaa bahuppadaa vaa ruupino vaa aruupino vaa sa~n~nino vaa asa~n~nino vaa nevasa~n~ninaasa~n~nino vaa, tathaagato teas.m aggamakkhaayati araha.m sammaasabbuddho. Evameva kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Monks, among all living beings; be they footless or two-footed, with four feet or many feet, with form or formless, percipient, non-percipient or neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient; the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (2) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, yaani kaanici ja"ngalaana.m paa.naana.m padajaataani, sabbaani taani hatthipade samodhaana.m gacchanti, hatthipada.m tesa.m aggamakkhaayati, yadida.m mahantattena. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado tesa.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as the footprints of all mobile living beings fit into the footprint of the elephant, and the elephant's footprint is reckoned the best of them all, that is, with respect to greatness of size, so too whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (3) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, kuu.taagaarassa yaa kaaci gopaanasiyo sabbaa taa kuu.ta"ngamaa kuu.taninnaa kuu.tasamosara.naa, kuu.to taasa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as all the rafters of a peaked house flow towards the roof peak, slope towards the roof peak, converge upon the roof peak, and the roof peak is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (4) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, ye keci muulagandhaa, kaa.laanusaariya.m tesa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as, of all fragrant roots, black resinous root is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (5) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, ye keci saaragandhaa, lohitacandana.m tesa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as, of all fragrant heartwood, red sandalwood is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (6) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, ye keci pupphagandhaa, vassika.m tesa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as, of all fragrant flowers, the jasmine is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (7) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, ye keci khuddaraajaano, sabbe te ra~n~no cakkavattissa anuyantaa bhavanti, raajaa tesa.m cakkavattii aggamakkhaayati. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as all petty princes are the vassals of a world ruler and the world ruler is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (8) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, yaa kaaci taarakaruupaana.m pabhaa, sabbaa taa candappabhaaya kala.m naagghanti so.lasi.m, candappabhaa taasa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as the radiance of all the stars does not amount to a sixteenth part of the radiance of the moon, and the radiance of the moon is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (9) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, saradasamaye viddhe vigatavalaahake deve aadicco nabha.m abbhussakkamaano sabba.m aakaasagata.m tamagata.m abhivihacca bhaasate ca tapate ca virocati ca. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati. Just as in the autumn, when the sky is clear and cloudless, the sun rises above the horizon, dispelling all darkness from space as it shines and beams and radiates. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. (10) Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, yaa kaaci mahaanadiyo, seyyathida.m ga"ngaa, yamunaa, aciravatii, sarabhuu, mahii, sabbaa taa samudda"ngamaa samuddaninnaa samuddapo.naa samuddapabbhaaraa, mahaasamuddo taasa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa. Appamaado tesa.m aggamakkhaayatii ti. Just as whatever great rivers there are: the Ganges, the Yamunaa, the Aciravatii, the Sarabhuu, the Mahii: all lead to the ocean, slope, slide and incline to the ocean, and the ocean is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all. ---------- Han: This is the end of my presentation. Appamaadena sampaadetha! Han #107564 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 4:02 am Subject: Re: A Question jonoabb Hi Howard and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > In DN 2 there is the following paragraph: > > > "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, > are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these ?" talking about > kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and > drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; > villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the > street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical > discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, > and talk of whether things exist or not ?" he abstains from talking about > lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." > Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether things > exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it seems > to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? Anyone? A good question. My guess would be that it means conventional things such as people, the sun, vehicles, etc (rather than dhammas), since such talk would be speculative. Jon #107565 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 4:10 am Subject: Re: The Highest Blessing... jonoabb Hi Sandahaung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sandahaung" wrote: > > This translation sheds new light to my understanding of mingalar. Thanks > =============== Thanks for this comment. Would you like to share your new perspective with everyone? Thanks. Jon > =============== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > > > > > > > Friends: > > > > What is the Highest Blessing? > > > > Thus have I heard: On one occasion the Exalted One was dwelling at the > > monastery of Anathapindika, in Jeta's grove, near Savatthi. Now when the > > night was far spent a certain deity, whose surpassing radiance illuminated > > the entire Jeta Grove, came to the presence of the Exalted One. After > > drawing near, he respectfully saluted Him and stood at one side. Standing > > thus, he addressed the Exalted One in verse: > > Many deities and men wishing to know what is good, have pondered on the > > blessings and auspicious signs of luck. Tell me what is the highest > > blessing? > > What is the best protection? > <...> > #107566 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 4:25 am Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt jonoabb Hi Dieter (and Nina) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: we don't own citta , but our reaction (present kamma) towards it (previous kamma) is a major factor of future citta (becomes future kamma.) > I think you remember the S.N. Sutta. > The opportunity of kusala kamma just now of which you are talking about , means nothing else than right effort in our reaction , certainly an activity, > i.e. the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things . > > This issue is seemlingy disputed ( my impression from numerous list discussion )...and I can't understand at all why.....? > =============== Right effort is not disputed, nor the significance of sila, samadhi and panna. However, there are differences in the way these dhammas are understood. When you say that our reaction to cittas is a major factor in determining what cittas will arise in the future, it suggests that we can guide or influence that reaction somehow. To my way of thinking, this would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership. To my understanding, if right effort arises the 'reaction' will be kusala; if not, then it will be akusala. But whether or not right effort arises is not something over which we have any control in the moment. Jon #107567 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 4:34 am Subject: Re: concepts have characteristics jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > If concepts don't have any characteristics, then how can we distinguish one concept from the another concept? Please answer this one question. > =============== Concepts are a creation of the mind. For example, the labels given to different conventional objects are the mind's way of marking different conventional objects, which are themselves concepts. So I would say that concepts are what distinguish different concepts from each other. As I mentioned in a recent post to KenO, in the suttas the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are spoken of in the context of dhammas, not of concepts. Jon #107568 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 12:26 am Subject: Most Advantageous is Friendship! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Friendship is Most Advantageous! Buddha once explained the Advantages of Friendship (Mittanisamsa): He who maintains genuine friendship, never betraying anybody, will always whenever he goes far out of his home, receive abundance of hospitality. Many will obtain their benefit through him. He who nurtures genuine friendship will be honoured in whatever country, village, town, house, group or family he visits. He who perpetuates genuine friendship will triumph over all his enemies. Robbers cannot overpower him. Royalty will not look down upon him. He who continues genuine friendship, returns home with feeling of amity, rejoices in the crowds of people, and becomes the chief among his kinsmen. He who keeps up genuine friendship, being hospitable to all others, in turn, receives hospitality. Being respectful to others, in turn, receives respect. He enjoys both praise and fame. He who sustains genuine friendship, a generous giver, receives gifts himself. Worshipping the worthy, will himself be worshipped gaining prosperity & fame. He who upholds genuine friendship, shines gloriously like fire, radiant like a deity. Prosperity and good fortune will never forsake or leave him. He who prolongs genuine friendship, will enjoy abundant wealth. What is sown in his field will flourish. The fruit of that which is sown he enjoys. He who carries on genuine friendship, should he fall from a precipice or mountain or tree, he will be protected and will not be seriously harmed. He who preserves genuine friendship cannot be overthrown by enemies even as the deep-rooted banyan tree cannot be overthrown by the gust of wind. Source: These ten gathas (stanzas) recounting the beneficial effects of friendship, are found in the M ugapakkha (Temiya ) Jataka, vol. vii. No. 538. Translated by Ven. Piyadassi Thero kindly forwarded by Seelagawesi Thero. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <....> #107569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2010 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question nilovg Hi Howard, Op 12-mei-2010, om 18:28 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether > things > exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it > seems > to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? > Anyone? -------- N: Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, 127. Bhavaabhava: all sorts of becoming. ------ Nina. #107570 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2010 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada nilovg Hi Howard, Op 12-mei-2010, om 17:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is best not to think in terms of separate "things". All our > splintering of experience into "separate realities" is, IMO, at > best a matter of > convention and at worst a matter of delusion. The reality of our > experience > is a flow of content that is ever-changing in quality, is > ungraspable, and > is merely "parsed" as convenient. --------- N: Ruupas arise in groups, kalapas. Visible object or colour does not arise in isolation, but is part of the group of ruupas. Visible object has as its proximate cause the four Great Elements because it cannot arise without them. However, when a characteristic of one of these four Great Elements, such as hardness or heat, is experienced, the accompanying visible object cannot be experienced at the same time. Only one ruupa at a time can be experienced by citta. Citta can have only one object at a time. When citta with sati and pa~n~naa arises it is aware of only one characteristic of reality at a time. Insight develops in stages and the first stage, as you know, is discerning the difference between the characteristic of naama and of ruupa. That is why I repeated Sarah's saying: step by step. ------- Nina. #107571 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2010 9:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much for this series and I appreciate all the trouble you took typing out the sutta. Sati has many levels. It can arise with pa~n~naa or without it. The diligence highly praised in this sutta would, I think, refer to sati together with pa~n~naa. Nina. #107572 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2010 9:38 am Subject: quote from Survey. 1. nilovg Dear friends, I am just reading to Lodewijk from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, passages about the world and the voidness of the world. I post some parts of it. (end quote) ----------- Nina. #107573 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 13, 2010 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/12/2010 7:24:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: But the Buddha spoke of 'dhammas', and I understand this term to refer to momentary phenomena; if there's some other explanation, I haven't heard it yet ;-)) ================================= In the suttas, when the Buddha spoke of "dhammas" he was using language just as we do every day when speaking conventionally of "things" - as in "There are things in the road" and "There are things to avoid" and "I will speak to you of important things". With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107574 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 13, 2010 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/13/2010 12:05:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether things > exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it seems > to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? Anyone? A good question. My guess would be that it means conventional things such as people, the sun, vehicles, etc (rather than dhammas), since such talk would be speculative. ================================= ;-) I'm not surprised that this is your guess. LOL! I have little doubt that the Buddha is including these, though he might be referring to more specific things or to *all* things, including namas and rupas. He might be considering ontological discussions a side-issue as regards awakening. Just as you have your perspective, I have mine, but the fact is that I do not know what the Buddha was referring to. With metta, Howard Middle-Way Existence /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle/ (From the Kaccayangotta Sutta) #107575 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 13, 2010 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/13/2010 5:02:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 12-mei-2010, om 18:28 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Among the "lowly topics" mentioned to be abstained from is "whether > things > exist or not." That is interesting, but calls for enlarging upon it > seems > to me. I wonder whether there is some commentary on that. Nina? > Anyone? -------- N: Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, 127. Bhavaabhava: all sorts of becoming. ------ Nina. ================================ Thank you, Nina. would you kindly quote what is relevant from this. I have one book with some suttas from the AN (maybe including this and maybe not), but it is not readily available at the moment, and I have no other source. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107576 From: han tun Date: Thu May 13, 2010 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: Sati has many levels. It can arise with pa~n~naa or without it. The diligence highly praised in this sutta would, I think, refer to sati together with pa~n~naa. Han: Thank you very much for your wise conclusion. If I can still be stubborn a little bit, I think appamaada, which is highly praised in the sutta, is more than sati together with pa~n~naa, and it embraces at least, viriya, saddhaa, samaadhi (ekaggataa) among other wholesome cetasikas. Respectfully, Han #107577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2010 12:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-mei-2010, om 12:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, 127. > Bhavaabhava: all sorts of becoming. > ------ > > ================================ > Thank you, Nina. would you kindly quote what is relevant from this. I > have one book with some suttas from the AN (maybe including this > and maybe > not), but it is not readily available at the moment, and I have no > other > source. ------- N:This was a gloss in my PTS edition. But thinking it over, I would rather translate literally: bhavaabhava: becioming and non-becoming. It looks to me like: eternalism and annihilism. I consulted the Thai co. which is very interesting, but could not find more on this sentence. Lots of speculative questions about rebirth of relatives, about the sun, the moon. Nina. #107578 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 13, 2010 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/13/2010 8:52:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 13-mei-2010, om 12:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, 127. > Bhavaabhava: all sorts of becoming. > ------ > > ================================ > Thank you, Nina. would you kindly quote what is relevant from this. I > have one book with some suttas from the AN (maybe including this > and maybe > not), but it is not readily available at the moment, and I have no > other > source. ------- N:This was a gloss in my PTS edition. But thinking it over, I would rather translate literally: bhavaabhava: becioming and non-becoming. It looks to me like: eternalism and annihilism. ---------------------------------------------------- Ahh, I see. Becoming & non-becoming, or maybe being & non-being, or, as you say, eternalism & annihilationism, or may be even substantialism & nihilism: The extremes of substantial existence and nihilistic non-existence, as opposed to the Buddhist middle-way mode of being. This, BTW, was a major issue later on for Nagarjuna - avoiding the extremes of rock-solid existence and absolute nothingness. -------------------------------------------------- I consulted the Thai co. which is very interesting, but could not find more on this sentence. --------------------------------------------------- Mmm, too bad. -------------------------------------------------- Lots of speculative questions about rebirth of relatives, about the sun, the moon. --------------------------------------------------- Hmm, that might point to Jon's position that this business pertains just to matters of conventional existence. -------------------------------------------------- Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107579 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2010 2:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) nilovg Dear Han, Op 13-mei-2010, om 13:10 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > If I can still be stubborn a little bit, I think appamaada, which > is highly praised in the sutta, is more than sati together with > pa~n~naa, and it embraces at least, viriya, saddhaa, samaadhi > (ekaggataa) among other wholesome cetasikas. ------ N: Yes, they all arise together and perform their functions while they assist the kusala citta. Nina. #107580 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 6:02 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Jon (and Nina), (D: we don't own citta , but our reaction (present kamma) towards it (previous kamma) is a major factor of future citta (becomes future kamma.) > I think you remember the S.N. Sutta. > The opportunity of kusala kamma just now of which you are talking about , means nothing else than right effort in our reaction , certainly an activity, > i.e. the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things . > This issue is seemlingy disputed ( my impression from numerous list discussion )...and I can't understand at all why.....?) > =============== Right effort is not disputed, nor the significance of sila, samadhi and panna. However, there are differences in the way these dhammas are understood. When you say that our reaction to cittas is a major factor in determining what cittas will arise in the future, it suggests that we can guide or influence that reaction somehow. To my way of thinking, this would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership. D: there is no ownership but D.O. .... ( we may discuss details ..perhaps using an essay from BB , see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html J: To my understanding, if right effort arises the 'reaction' will be kusala; if not, then it will be akusala. But whether or not right effort arises is not something over which we have any control in the moment. please reconsider in respect to what the Buddha taught about Right Effort : e.g. DN 22: And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. or A.N IV, 14: 1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid. (2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to disappear. This is called the effort to overcome. (3) "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (piti), tranquillity (passaddhi), concentraton (samadhi), equanimity (upekkha). This is called the effort to develop. (4) "What now is the effort to maintain? The monk keeps firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as the mental image of a skeleton, a corpse infested by worms, a corpse blueblack in colour, a festering corpse, a corpse riddled with holes, a corpse swollen up. This is called the effort to maintain" with Metta Dieter #107581 From: "philip" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 11:49 pm Subject: Re: One step at a time, one citta at a time.... philofillet Hi Sarah and all I agree, very grateful to the Buddha these days, as always. There are things that are not working out well for me at all in the ways of the world, but the Dhamma is always there and it is the greatest wealth. I would say step by step or breath by breath more than one citta at a time, because one citta cannot be an object of awareness for me, but on and on development of understanding goes, gradually. A. Sujin's "just understand!" that she often uses to answer people who ask about mundane struggles sometimes seems like a pleasant panacea to me rather than a proper teaching, but there is truth in there too... Metta, Phil p.s I came here today to recommend a wonderful sutta that I had not come across before. It is amazingly comprehensive. I especially wanted to recommend it to Lukas, as we have talked about our desire to improve conventional behaviour. It is MN 114. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I'm so thankful for having heard the Dhamma.... > > #107582 From: han tun Date: Fri May 14, 2010 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, > > Han: If I can still be stubborn a little bit, I think appamaada, which is highly praised in the sutta, is more than sati together with pa~n~naa, and it embraces at least, viriya, saddhaa, samaadhi (ekaggataa) among other wholesome cetasikas. > Nina: Yes, they all arise together and perform their functions while they assist the kusala citta. ---------- Han: Can I take it then that appamaada is a kusala citta with which sati, pa~n~naa, viriya, saddhaa and samaadhi (ekaggataa) and other sobha.na cetasikas arise together, and they perform their functions while they assist the kusala citta (appamaada)? Respectfully, Han #107583 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 13, 2010 11:10 pm Subject: Sweet Speech! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Good for all are the 4 kinds of Right Speech!! The Blessed Buddha once said: How, Cunda , is purity of verbal action fourfold? 1: Herein, one avoids lying, abstains from false. He speaks the truth, is devoted to the truth, reliable, trustable, never deceiving anyone. Being at a meeting, among family, in society, or in the court called upon and asked as witness to tell what he knows, he answers, if he knows nothing: I know nothing; & if he knows, he answers: I know! If he has seen nothing, he answers: I have seen nothing & if he has seen something, he answers: I have seen this and that. Thus he never deliberately speaks a lie, neither for his own advantage, nor for the advantage of others, nor for the sake of any trivial gain whatsoever. 2: He avoids divisive speech, spreading rumours, tale bearing, & gossip. What he has heard here, he does not repeat there wishing to cause dissension there by splitting those united. What he has heard there, he does not tell here so to cause conflict by splitting friends here.. Rather he unites those who are divided; and those who are united he encourages. Harmony, peace, agreement & concord gladdens him. He delights and rejoices in Harmony. He spreads & grows Harmony! 3: He avoids harsh & aggressive language, he abstains from all scolding. He speaks such words that are gentle, soothing to the ear, pleasing, heart-touching, polite, dear, considerate, interesting & agreeable.. 4: He avoids vain talk, empty & small talk, void speech and idle prattle! He abstains from all babble, chitchat, tittle-tattle and evil hearsay. He speaks at the right time, in accordance with facts, speaks what is useful, speaks about the Dhamma and the Discipline; his speech is like a precious treasure, well timed, always reasoned by arguments, moderated, well formulated & full of sound reason & common sense. In this -for all- very good way, is purity of verbal action fourfold! Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 10:176 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107584 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 14, 2010 8:46 am Subject: Quote from Survey. 2. nilovg Dear friends, It is important to consider whether one is ready to give up the idea of being, person or self, or not yet. At this moment there is no self, but is one ready to become detached from the world? First of all, one should clearly know that there is no self, being or person, so that one can become detached from the world and be liberated from it. Some people cannot bear the truth that there is no self who is seeing, hearing or experiencing the other sense objects. They cannot accept it that there are in the absolute sense no relatives and friends, no possessions, no things they could enjoy. Usually, people do not believe that they should be liberated from the world. In order to abandon the clinging to the view of self or mine, one should develop the pa~n~naa which knows all realities which appear as they really are. Then one will truly know the world which consists of these realities. It is not easy to know the world as it really is. Those who have learnt the truth about the world the Buddha realized himself by his enlightenment and taught to others, should carefully consider what they have learnt and apply it in their daily life. They should continue to develop pa~n~naa so that it can become keener and know the characteristics of realities which constitute the world as they really are. We should know the world at this very moment, not at another time. We should know the world when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object or thinking, at this very moment. We should listen to the Dhamma and study it, so that there can be awareness, investigation and understanding of the characteristics of realities appearing through the six doors. This is the only way that pa~n~naa can develop and know the world which arises and falls away now. -------- Nina #107585 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 14, 2010 8:51 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 14. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas. nilovg Dear friends, The Eight Inseparable Ruupas. Ruupas always arise in groups, and the four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion are always present wherever there is materiality. Apart from these four elements there are other r?pas, namely twentyfour ?derived r?pas? (in P?li: up?d? r?pas). The derived r?pas cannot arise without the four Great Elements, they are dependent on them. Four among the derived r?pas always arise together with the four Great Elements in every group of r?pas and are thus present wherever materiality occurs, no matter whether r?pas of the body or materiality outside the body. These four r?pas are the following: visible object (or colour) odour flavour nutrition The four Great elements and these four derived r?pas, which always arise together, are called the ?inseparable r?pas? (in P?li: avinibbhoga r?pas). Wherever solidity arises, there also have to be cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Visible object has as its proximate cause the four Great Elements because it cannot arise without them. However, when a characteristic of one of these four Great Elements, such as hardness or heat, is experienced, the accompanying visible object cannot be experienced at the same time. Only one ruupa at a time can be experienced by citta. When there are conditions for seeing, visible object is experienced. When we close our eyes, there may be remembrance of the shape and form of a thing, but that is not the experience of visible object. The thinking of a ?thing?, no matter whether our eyes are closed or open, is different from the actual experience of what is visible. Odour cannot arise alone, it needs the four Great Elements which arise together with it and it is also accompanied by the other r?pas included in the eight inseparable r?pas. When odour appears we tend to be carried away by like or dislike. We are attached to fragrant odours and we loathe nasty smells. However, odour is only a reality which is experienced through the nose and it does not last. Flavour is another ruupa included in the eight inseparable ruupas. We are attached to food and we find its flavour very important. As soon as we have tasted delicious flavour, attachment tends to arise. We are forgetful of the reality of flavour which is only a kind of ruupa. When we recognize what kind of flavour we taste, we think about a concept, but this thinking is conditioned by the experience of flavour through the tongue. Nutrition is another kind of ruupa which has to arise with every kind of materiality. It can be exerienced only through the mind-door. Nutritive essence is not only present in rice and other foods, it is also present in what we call a rock or sand. It is present in any kind of materiality. Insects are able to digest what human beings cannot digest, such as, for example, wood. If one does not develop understanding of realities one will be enslaved by all objects experienced through the senses. On account of these objects akusala cittas tend to arise. If someone thinks that there is a self who can own what is seen, touched or smelt, he may be inclined to commit unwholesome deeds such as stealing. In reality all these objects are insignificant, they arise and then fall away immediately. In the ultimate sense life exists only in one moment, the present moment. At the moment of seeing the world of visible object is experienced, at the moment of hearing the world of sound, and at the moment of touching the world of tangible object. Life is actually one moment of experiencing an object. ********** Nina. #107586 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Fri May 14, 2010 8:01 am Subject: Lesson 11 :: Learn Abhidharma the easy way - Chethasika Samprayoga of 18 Rootless Chitta gemunu.rohana Out of 89 different chitta, there are total of 18 Ahaythuka (Rootless) chitta from 3 categories as below. 1.Seven Rootless unwholesome resultant (chitta of five senses plus 2 other Chitta for neutral "welcome" and neutral "inquire" actions) 2.Eight Rootless wholesome resultant (chitta of five senses plus 3 other Chitta for neutral "welcome" and two(happy or neutral)"inquire" actions) 3.Three Rootless functional (3 Chitta that are neither resultant nor result in anything in future. i.e. mere functional). They are (3.i)Focus changing from default for 5 senses (3.ii)Focus changing from default for mind (3.iii) Mild smile action of venerating Arhaths Please refer the grouping done with green line in Vinnana Skanda illustration to get better understanding on this group. All these 18 Chitta are a very weak collection and considered as ones that can generate only from within ("Asanskarika"), No external party can do anything to make them generate within you as oppose to some Akusal (unwholesome) chitta which are termed "Sasanskarika" in the previous lessons. Please use following rules to remember associations 1. 7 Sarwa Chitta Sadarana Chethasika have to be there in any Chitta so they are counted for all 18 chitta 2. Chitta of five senses unwholesome/wholesome resultant are the ones with minimum number of Chethasika, So They have only above 7 Chethasika (There are 10 Chitta here) , Pls refer illustration 3. Vitharka(focus grabing action), Vichara(focus feeling action) and Adimokka (focus Judge action) all three Chethasika are there in Chitta for "welcome" action (There are 2 Chitta here), So the total Chethasika count for them become 10 4. Vitharka(focus grabing action), Vichara(focus feeling action) and Adimokka (focus Judge action) all three Chethasika are there in Chitta for "inquire" action (There are 3 Chitta here, 2 neutral and one happy), The total Chethasika count for neutral 2 of them become 10. The Chitta for happy "inquire" has additional Peethi (happy) Chetahsika to add to collection. Therefore the total Chethasika count for that particular Chitta is 11. 5. The Three Rootless functional Chitta has following Chethasika associations ??? (5.i)Focus changing from default for 5 senses :: The total is 10, same set as in "welcome" Chitta ??? (5.ii)Focus changing from default for mind :: The total is 11, i.e. above 10 plus Viriya (force required) Chethasika, it is not easy to focus something through mind without some force, unlike focusing something from 5 senses which happen automatically just by watching, listening, smelling, tasting, feeling. ??? (5.iii) Mild smile action of venerating Arhaths :: The total is 12, i.e. above 11 plus Peethi (happy) Chetahsika Try to remember the total Chethasika against each 18 Chitta as illustrated in the slide to complete your knowledge on this collection of Chittha. Referring back to 52 Chethasika and one following that will help you understand the details given in this slide http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/2010/05/chethasika-samprayoga-of-18-rootl\ ess.html ?May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! Visit http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/ for freely downloadable Dharma content. #107587 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 14, 2010 1:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (107573) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > In the suttas, when the Buddha spoke of "dhammas" he was using > language just as we do every day when speaking conventionally of "things" - as in > "There are things in the road" and "There are things to avoid" and "I will > speak to you of important things". > =============== An interesting interpretation; so anything and everything? ;-)) In a recent post you described how there are no such things as concepts (such as trees), just the activity of thinking-of-concepts; and hence a statement such as "Concepts are unreal" is meaningless. (No disagreement from me on this.) But what about those things of which it can meaningfully be said that they are real, are anatta, etc. Are these not the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha? If not, how are such 'real things' to be termed? Jon #107588 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 14, 2010 1:31 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt jonoabb Hi Dieter (107580) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > When you say that our reaction to cittas is a major factor in determining what cittas will arise in the future, it suggests that we can guide or influence that reaction somehow. To my way of thinking, this would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership. > > D: there is no ownership but D.O. .... > ( we may discuss details ..perhaps using an essay from BB , see: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html > =============== OK, I've downloaded a copy of BB's essay. Would you like to kick off the discussion? Jon #107589 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 14, 2010 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) nilovg Dear Han, Op 14-mei-2010, om 2:32 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Can I take it then that appamaada is a kusala citta with which > sati, pa~n~naa, viriya, saddhaa and samaadhi (ekaggataa) and other > sobha.na cetasikas arise together, and they perform their functions > while they assist the kusala citta (appamaada)? -------- N: Instead of saying that appamaada is kusala citta I would rather say that when there is appamaada there is (in the case of non- arahats) kusala citta with pa~n~naa and other sobhana cetasikas. It is hard to catch this word in one definition. It rather describes a situation where all these sobhana cetasikas occur. ------ Nina. #107590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 14, 2010 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] animal talk, a puzzle. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-mei-2010, om 15:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N:This was a gloss in my PTS edition. But thinking it over, I would > rather translate literally: bhavaabhava: becioming and non-becoming. > It looks to me like: eternalism and annihilism. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Ahh, I see. Becoming & non-becoming, or maybe being & non-being, or, > as you say, eternalism & annihilationism, or may be even > substantialism & > nihilism: The extremes of substantial existence and nihilistic non- > existence, > as opposed to the Buddhist middle-way mode of being. This, BTW, was a > major issue later on for Nagarjuna - avoiding the extremes of rock- > solid > existence and absolute nothingness. -------- N: Looking up the co. again, some paralel texts and the dictionary. My conclusion of eternalism and nihilism was too rash. I found in the Thai co: Bhavo: to prosper. Abhavo: to decline. Itibhavabhavo: becoming thus and thus. It is talk that speaks about the cause that is pointless, no matter in which way it proceeds. ------ Nina. #107591 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 14, 2010 2:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (322-26) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 26. Walshe: DN 33.2.1(26) 'Five perceptions making for maturity of liberation: the perception of impermanence (anicca-sa~n~naa), of suffering in impermanence (anicce dukkha-sa~n~naa), of impersonality in suffering (dukkhe anatta-sa~n~naa), of abandoning (pahaana-sa~n~naa), of dispassion (viraaga-sa~n~naa). (Pa~nca vimuttiparipaacaniiyaa sa~n~naa - aniccasa~n~naa, anicce dukkhasa~n~naa, dukkhe anattasa~n~naa, pahaanasa~n~naa, viraagasa~n~naa.) -------- N: As to liberation, the Tiika states: this refers to the arahat who is completely free from defilements. Co: As to the perception of impermanence, this is sa~n~naa that has arisen with the insight that contemplates impermanence. Tiika: Sa~n~naa that has arisen when the insight that contemplates impermanence has become a supporting condition, and this means that it is associated with this insight. Co: As to the perception of suffering in impermanence, this is sa~n~naa that has arisen with the insight that contemplates dukkha. As to the perception of suffering in non-self, this is sa~n~naa that has arisen with the insight that contemplates non-self. As to the perception of abandoning (pahaana), this is sa~n~naa that has arisen with the insight that contemplates abandoning. As to the perception of dispassion, this is sa~n~naa that has arisen with the insight that contemplates dispassion (viraga). -------- N: We read in the Co. to the Mahaa-raahulovadasutta: < aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the expression, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Or, just insight; although this is not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. > -------------- N: In the co. it has been repeated that the sa~n~naa has arisen (upanna) together with ~naa.na, and thus, it is conditioned by insight. It is not merely remembrance of the word impermanence. Kh Sujin: < Anicca sa~n~naa remembers the impermanence of realities that arise and fall away. We hear the word impermanence and we remember it but we do not realize the characteristic of aniccaa. There is niccaa sa~n~naa when we recognize a person who is standing and do not realize the arising and falling away of dhammas. Vipassanaa~naa.na realizes the characteristics of the realities that appear as they are. At that moment sa~n~naa remembers and does not forget the characteristic of aniccaa. > ---------------- Sutta: Olds These then, friends, are those five-part Dhammas consummately taught by the Bhagava, that Consummately-Awakened-One, an Arahant who knows and sees. In this situation, let us all gather to gether as one, undivided, so that this Best of Lives will stay on track and stand for a long time as a benefit to the many, as a pleasure for the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit and pleasure of gods and man. (Ime kho, aavuso, tena bhagavataa jaanataa passataa arahataa sammaasambuddhena pa~nca dhammaa sammadakkhaataa; tattha sabbeheva sa'ngaayitabba.m pe atthaaya hitaaya sukhaaya devamanussaana.m [sa'ngitiyapa~ncaka.m ni.t.thita.m (syaa. ka.m.)] ). (The End of the Fives). ---------- Nina. #107592 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 14, 2010 10:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/14/2010 9:33:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107573) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > In the suttas, when the Buddha spoke of "dhammas" he was using > language just as we do every day when speaking conventionally of "things" - as in > "There are things in the road" and "There are things to avoid" and "I will > speak to you of important things". > =============== An interesting interpretation; so anything and everything? ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- Yes, that was his usage - for anything & everything. -------------------------------------------- In a recent post you described how there are no such things as concepts (such as trees), just the activity of thinking-of-concepts; and hence a statement such as "Concepts are unreal" is meaningless. (No disagreement from me on this.) ----------------------------------------------- The word 'real' has a range of meaning. As for absolutely real, I stick with nibbana only. All else I consider a matter of convention, even namas and rupas. At the other end of the meaning range, rhinoceroses are real but unicorns unreal. ------------------------------------------------ But what about those things of which it can meaningfully be said that they are real, are anatta, etc. Are these not the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha? ------------------------------------------- The Buddha used 'dhammas' to refer to anything & everything. ------------------------------------------- If not, how are such 'real things' to be termed? ---------------------------------------------- Variously, depending on the sense of 'real'. -------------------------------------------- Jon =============================== With metta, Howard P. S. Liberation doesn't come from grasping at things as "real" but from relinquishment. There is much too much talk about "realities". Unreal /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /Forms and sounds and flavors and smells and touches and all mental states, are wished for, cherished and pleasing, as long as it's said that "They're real." / (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #107593 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 14, 2010 10:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] animal talk, a puzzle. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/14/2010 10:00:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Looking up the co. again, some paralel texts and the dictionary. My conclusion of eternalism and nihilism was too rash. I found in the Thai co: Bhavo: to prosper. Abhavo: to decline. Itibhavabhavo: becoming thus and thus. It is talk that speaks about the cause that is pointless, no matter in which way it proceeds. ============================ Thanks for all that effort, Nina. I don't find this so clear, though. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107594 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri May 14, 2010 5:21 pm Subject: Re: rules and rituals sukin pt moellerdieter Hi Jon (and Nina), you wrote: When you say that our reaction to cittas is a major factor in determining what cittas will arise in the future, it suggests that we can guide or influence that reaction somehow. To my way of thinking, this would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership. (> D: there is no ownership but D.O. ....> ( we may discuss details ..perhaps using an essay from BB , see: ) 'OK, I've downloaded a copy of BB's essay. Would you like to kick off the discussion? D: let me start by repeating what we are talking about: According to your understanding ( of Right Effort) we cannot guide or influence the reaction of what we are conscious about and whether or not right effort arises is not something over which we have any control in the moment .. (as this would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership). vs the quotation from the suttas: snip ..'There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... etc. 'Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise etc.' if we don't have any control about our reaction , above guidelines would be totally useless , wouldn't it? by : 'it would not be consistent with the (agreed) fact of cittas not being subject to ownership)' , do you mean no ownership hence no control ? Your assumption isn't clear to me. with Metta Dieter #107595 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri May 14, 2010 5:53 pm Subject: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. truth_aerator Hello Jon, Dieter, all, What is the difference between lets say: Kamma and vipaka? kusala kamma and kusalavipaka? akusala kamma and akusalavipaka? While we cannot "control" things, can we influence future result? Example: A person who has heard about kusala/akusala things practices abstaining from as many akusala activities as possible. Doesn't that influence the future? Of course it does! Or another example: Person studies and considers the Dhamma. That influences the understanding faculty . Or: A person is bad at riding a bike. He can't wish or control "let me be a pro right now!". But he can practice the skill and in the future, if conditions allow, he will be much better, maybe even like a pro bicyclist. So effort can be done to influence understanding -> "Bhikkhus, one might look on equanimously at one's blazing clothes or head, paying no attention to them, but so long as one has not yet made the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are [attain Sotapatti], in order to make the breakthrough one should arouse extraordinary desire, make an extraordinary effort, stir up zeal and enthusiasm, be unremitting, and exercise mindfulness and clear comprehension" - SN 56.34 (4) Clothes With metta, Alex #107596 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts are anatta. Please don't teach attavada jonoabb Hi Howard (107592) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > Yes, that was his usage - for anything & everything. > =============== Hmm, I'll have to think about this. > =============== > The word 'real' has a range of meaning. As for absolutely real, I > stick with nibbana only. All else I consider a matter of convention, even namas > and rupas. At the other end of the meaning range, rhinoceroses are real > but unicorns unreal. > =============== OK, you've identified 4 'levels' of 'reality' (nibbana, namas and rupas, rhinoceroses and unicorns) here. To my understanding, the distinction between levels 1 and 2 (on the one hand) and 3 and 4 (on the other) is important, indeed crucial, as far as the development of awareness/insight is concerned. > =============== > The Buddha used 'dhammas' to refer to anything & everything. > =============== On my reading, when the Buddha spoke about the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta he did so in the context of levels 1 and 2 things, rather than levels 3 and 4 things. > ===============> > If not, how are such 'real things' to be termed? > ---------------------------------------------- > Variously, depending on the sense of 'real'. > =============== I mean for the purposes of discussion. Using levels 1 to 4 is fine by me ;- )) > =============== > P. S. Liberation doesn't come from grasping at things as "real" but from > relinquishment. There is much too much talk about "realities". > =============== I don't mind using some other term for levels 1 and 2 things, if you can think of a better one. We agree, I think, that levels 3 and 4 things are concepts (or, more correctly, that there are no such things as these). I of course would agree that grasping - of any kind - does not lead to liberation. To my understanding, liberation comes from understanding things as they truly are (specfically, level 1 and 2 things). Jon #107597 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 12:10 am Subject: The Mirror! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Kamma & Fruit = Cause & Effect! By Helping others, one thereby helps oneself! By Harming others, one also harms oneself! By Supporting others, one supports oneself! By Cheating others, one also cheats oneself! By Giving to others, one also gives to oneself! By Stealing from others, one steals from oneself! Guarding oneself, one therefore protects others... Protecting others, one therefore guards oneself... To avoid all Killing. To avoid all Stealing. To avoid all Abuse. To avoid all Lying. To avoid all Alcohol. Is thus to this world the Highest Offer! Avoiding all Evil... Doing only Good! Purifying the Mind: That all Buddhas teach! The Mirror reflects all Action, yet is itself Empty! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <..> #107598 From: han tun Date: Sat May 15, 2010 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk on Appamaada (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, Please allow me to review our latest discussions to get a full picture of the subject matter. (1) Nina: Sati has many levels. It can arise with pa~n~naa or without it. The diligence highly praised in this sutta would, I think, refer to sati together with pa~n~naa. (2) Han: If I can still be stubborn a little bit, I think appamaada, which is highly praised in the sutta, is more than sati together with pa~n~naa, and it embraces at least, viriya, saddhaa, samaadhi (ekaggataa) among other wholesome cetasikas. (3) Nina: Yes, they all arise together and perform their functions while they assist the kusala citta. (4) Han: Can I take it then that appamaada is a kusala citta with which sati, pa~n~naa, viriya, saddhaa and samaadhi (ekaggataa) and other sobha.na cetasikas arise together, and they perform their functions while they assist the kusala citta (appamaada)? (5) Nina: Instead of saying that appamaada is kusala citta I would rather say that when there is appamaada there is (in the case of non-arahats) kusala citta with pa~n~naa and other sobhana cetasikas. It is hard to catch this word in one definition. It rather describes a situation where all these sobhana cetasikas occur. --------------- Han: I like your last reply and appreciate it very much. It has been a useful and profitable discussion with you. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #107599 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat May 15, 2010 1:08 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. kenhowardau Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, Dieter, all, > > > What is the difference between lets say: > Kamma and vipaka? > kusala kamma and kusalavipaka? > akusala kamma and akusalavipaka? > > > While we cannot "control" things, can we influence future result? --------------------------- What is the difference between control and influence? ---------------- A: > Example: A person who has heard about kusala/akusala things practices abstaining from as many akusala activities as possible. Doesn't that influence the future? Of course it does! ---------------- If you are going to talk about a person who practises then, sure, you have to talk about the results he influences in the future. The Dhamma, however, is about a different reality, in which there is no person who practises, and no person who experiences the results of practice. ------------------- A: > Or another example: Person studies and considers the Dhamma. That influences the understanding faculty . ------------------- While there is the idea of a person who studies there has not yet been any Dhamma study. ------------------------- A: > Or: A person is bad at riding a bike. He can't wish or control "let me be a pro right now!". But he can practice the skill and in the future, if conditions allow, he will be much better, maybe even like a pro bicyclist. ------------------------- Yes, if you want to talk about conventional reality, these are the kinds of thing that happen there. --------------------------------- A: > So effort can be done to influence understanding -> "Bhikkhus, one might look on equanimously at one's blazing clothes or head, paying no attention to them, but so long as one has not yet made the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are [attain Sotapatti], in order to make the breakthrough one should arouse extraordinary desire, make an extraordinary effort, stir up zeal and enthusiasm, be unremitting, and exercise mindfulness and clear comprehension" - SN 56.34 (4)Clothes --------------------------------- That is one long sentence. There seems to be something left out in the middle. But, generally, it is about the conditioned dhammas that condition path-consciousness. Isn't it? Ken H