#107800 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 7:57 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter, All (107797) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Jon, All, > ... > Wondering whether we should wish eachother 'Happy Visakh ' today ... why not! > Although I believe the Master probably would prefer that we recall his final words : > "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence." > =============== Thanks for the good wishes and the reminder. Happy Vesak to you and everyone! Let's not be forgetful of the dhammas of the present moment. Jon #107801 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 10:45 pm Subject: What is the Final Goal? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the Final Goal and Destination? The ascetic wanderer Nandiya once asked the Blessed One: Which things, Master Gotama, when developed and refined, lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their end destination, have Nibbana as their final goal? These eight things, Nandiya, when developed and refined lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their last destination, have Nibbana as their final goal. Which eight? Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) These eight things, Nandiya, when developed and refined, lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their target, have Nibbana as their final aim! When this was thus spoken, the wanderer Nandiya said to the Blessed One: Magnificent, Master Gotama! Marvellous, Master Gotama! Let the Master Gotama remember me as one, who has taken refuge in the Buddha for life? The 8 spokes symbolize the 8 Steps of the Noble Way! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:11-2] section 45:10 Nandiya ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107802 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu May 27, 2010 11:34 pm Subject: Re: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff kenhowardau Hi Alex, > In reality there is no one who jumps off a cliff. > Also, there is no cliff, and no activity known as jumping. Mind jumping off one, and proving it to everyone? :) --------- You're not the first person to ask me that. :-) --------------- A: > Then why does "one" need to avoid falling off the cliff? Why does "one" need to eat and avoid starvation to death? --------------- Lots of people do fall off cliffs or starve to death. The rest of us don't. Ultimately it's just one citta following after another. There is no control. Ken H #107803 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri May 28, 2010 5:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? kenhowardau Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken H, > Op 26-mei-2010, om 22:25 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > > > Provided we bear it in mind, we can talk about other concerns. We > > can say (for example) that we want to have right understanding of > > panic and fear-of-death. (We can even make flippant remarks such as > > "Bring them on!") In the context of knowing the present reality, > > such concerns take on a whole new meaning. :-) > -------- > N:It may be useful if you add more to your last remark, since not all > people may follow this. > As I understand from Kh Sujin, we should not select just fear. Any > reality that appears now is worthy to be object of awareness. -------------------- I was thinking about how difficult it was to talk about the Dhamma without sounding like someone who believed in control and self. My point was that our choice of words shouldn't matter so much *provided* we understood there were only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. Even so, I suppose I shouldn't make conventional language statements at DSG unless I am sure I could say the same things in paramattha terms. :-) Ken H #107804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2010 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 nilovg Dear Jon, Op 27-mei-2010, om 21:57 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Happy Vesak to you and everyone! Let's not be forgetful of the > dhammas of the present moment. ------- N: Thank you, and let us not forget the present dhamma. This is also an occasion to thank you and Sarah for the eminent way you have moderated and guided this list throughout the years! Nina. #107805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2010 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 28-mei-2010, om 7:16 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > I was thinking about how difficult it was to talk about the Dhamma > without sounding like someone who believed in control and self. > > My point was that our choice of words shouldn't matter so much > *provided* we understood there were only the presently arisen > paramattha dhammas. > > Even so, I suppose I shouldn't make conventional language > statements at DSG unless I am sure I could say the same things in > paramattha terms. :-) --------- N: Don't worry and I think you are doing fine. We can gradually learn to see through conventional statements, getting their real meaning, referring to life at this moment, and then moment is very short, gone immediately. ------ Nina. #107806 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 28, 2010 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! jonoabb Hi Alex (107761) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > J: Yes, very gradual (cira kala bhavana). No need to get excited >about the possibility of attainments in this lifetime ;-)) > > I strongly disagree with the above. What you've said has absolutely no bearings on the Dhamma, where a person could go from a mass murderer to a saint within one life. Don't underestimate the power of the Dhamma! > =============== J: Whether a person is capable of enlightenment within a given lifetime depends on whether panna has been sufficiently developed in previous lifetimes. In the case of a person who has not yet heard the dhamma (in the present lifetime), that previously developed panna is still latent, and so accumulated akusala tendencies including those involving wrong view(as in the case of Angulimala) will manifest unchecked. > =============== > The famous satipatthana sutta states that one can become awakened in 7 days, and that by the way of an average person capable of being trained. A very keen person, under Buddha's personal guidance could do it in a day (12 hours) MN 85 > =============== J: Yes, but everything depends on the extent of the prior development of panna. There were also many people who were followers of the Buddha and had 'personal guidance' from him but did not attain enlightenment in that lifetime. Their panna was not sufficiently developed (in previous lifetimes). We should also remember that the Buddha sought out those who were most ripe to hear his message, so this would account to a very large extent for the high rate of enlightenment among his listeners. Jon #107807 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 28, 2010 12:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Influence, choice, will, conditionality jonoabb Hi Howard (107760) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > J: The kusala (or akusala) that is arising at this moment is conditioned, > but it is not predetermined. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > I don't understand that, Jon, unless by 'predetermined' you mean > "decided upon and then consciously carried out". What exactly do you mean by > 'predetermined'? > =============== J: Alex was talking about a view which holds that whether the consciousness is kusala or is akusala is pre-determined and that there is thus no purpose in having an interest in developing kusala. I was using pre-determined in that sense. > =============== > Hence the Buddha was able to say that kusala *can* be developed, akusala > *can* be abandoned. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yes, but only if conditions provide for it. > =============== J: Well of course it is subject to conditions ;-)) The point is, though, that the development of kusala is possible for anyone. > =============== > J: Are we still talking about the man who climbed the stairs of the > building? If so, I agree that his response (so-called 'choice') will be > conditioned by multiple past and present factors. I'm happy not to call it choice, > but I wouldn't call it determinism or fatalism, since those terms refer to > views actually held (rather than, for example, one's reading of the texts > on the matter). > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm having a hard time understanding you, Jon. At any point in time, > all preconditions for whatever might happen next are "in". the die has been > cast. Whatever happens next HAS to happen next. There is no randomness. > =============== J: Agreed, there is no randomness. Everything is a matter of conditions, including the moment of consciousness conventionally known as making a choice. Jon #107808 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 28, 2010 12:26 pm Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! jonoabb Hi Phil (107764) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > ... > Alex, you could also help Jon understand the MN sutta in which we are urged to make an aspiration about the realm we wish to be reborn in, > it's MN 120, Sankharaupapatti sutta. > =============== J: Many thanks for referring to this sutta (Sankhaarupapatti Sutta MN 120). It begins with the words: "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you reappearance in accordance with one's aspiration". It goes on to describe how a person of developed insight who aspires to rebirth in a particular realm and who develops insight in this lifetime will gain rebirth in that realm. I do not read this as suggesting that a person *should* make an aspiration to rebirth in a particular realm. I think it reflects the fact that, whether consciously or subconsciously, people do wish for rebirth in a happy realm of one kind or another. So the message is that whatever is wished for is best obtained by the development of insight (i.e., not by performing other forms of kusala, let alone various rites and rituals, as is customarily believed). Interestingly, the sutta ends with the case of the person of developed insight who aspires to the attainment of enlightenment (i.e., not to rebirth in any particular realm). Such a person may, with the development of insight, attain enlightenment and "does not reappear anywhere at all". It is this last-mentioned aspiration that is being encouraged, in my view. Jon #107809 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 28, 2010 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & All, (*Han) --- On Fri, 28/5/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Happy Vesak to you and everyone! Let's not be forgetful of the > dhammas of the present moment. ------- >N: Thank you, and let us not forget the present dhamma. This is also an occasion to thank you and Sarah for the eminent way you have moderated and guided this list throughout the years! ... S: There's never a time we don't need the present dhamma, present undersanding, present awareness reminders! Yes, a wise and fulfilling Vesak to all! The Buddha understood our predicaments in samsara and fulfilled all those aeons of hardship as a bodhisatta in order to teach us the Dhamma and point out the Exit! Thank you Nina, for all your help and guidance with the Dhamma in all your writings and to everyone who contributes and has contributed to share your reflections with us, no matter the personal circumstances and particular predicaments. Lots of legal documents for us at the moment, the Shippers on Monday, then we can breathe a little more easily, and after the following Saturday, all the furniture will be sold and given away, so as I said to pt (off-list), with a computer and not much else here, it should be a little easier to catch up with posting. But, and it's such a big BUT, we never know about the next moment at all. We speculate, we plan, we have our fantasies, our nightmares, but there's only ever this moment, this presently appearing dhamma, to be known.... Metta Sarah *p.s Han, we may be able to spend more time in Bangkok before too long, so don't feel sad! We'll try to arrange another get-together when it happens. ======== #107810 From: han tun Date: Fri May 28, 2010 2:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 hantun1 Dear Sarah and Jon, > Sarah *p.s Han, we may be able to spend more time in Bangkok before too long, so don't feel sad! We'll try to arrange another get-together when it happens. Han: That is great! I will look forward to it. with metta and respect, Han #107811 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2010 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinna & memory of past lives nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-mei-2010, om 15:03 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I wonder, how is abhinna of recollecting past lives classified? Is > it kusala or vipaka citta? Can it be based on akusala citta? -------- N: The Vis. XIII, 13 gives a good description. He recollects with mindfulness and knowledge. One has to attain the fourth jhaana and then emerge from it, and then jhaana is the basis for such recollection. It is with mahaakusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa or, in the case of arahats, with mahaa-kiriyacitta accompanied by pa~n~naa. Vis: We read that other sectarians, ordinary disciples, Great Disciples, Chief disciples, Pacceka Buddhas and Buddhas can recollect this past life. There are different degrees of the ability to recollect the past in the case of these six kinds of people. ------- > > A: Why can a person recollect at least some events from this life, > yet not be able to recollect previous life? Other than "reach 4th > sutta jhana", is there another explanation? -------- N: They do not have enough sati and pa~n~naa, and conditions have to be fulfilled, attaining the fourth stage of jhaana. -------- > > A: Some children had spontaneous recollections of former lives and > some claim to be able to recall past lives through hypnotic > regression (which isn't 4th sutta or 5th Abhidhamma jhana). -------- N: Yes, I read about cases in Sri Lanka. I cannot explain why. Perhaps former accumulated skill? People get very involved in such stories, but this distracts from understanding the present moment. It distracts from the essence of the teachings. ****** Nina. #107812 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 28, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: Intelligent Invitation! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Realizable here & now in each & every Moment! The Blessed Buddha once said: Overwhelmed and obsessed by desire, anger, & confusion, one aims at one's own ruin, others' ruin, and at the ruin of both! One thereby suffers much mental pain and frustration... If, however, desire, anger, and confusion are eliminated, then one aims neither at one's own ruin, nor at others' ruin, nor at the ruining of both, and one therefore neither suffers any mental pain nor any frustration at all! Hence is Nibbana realizable right here and now in this very lifetime, immediate, inviting, intriguing, and intelligible to each intelligence! Exactly in so far as anyone has made real the complete ceasing of all greed, hate, and confusion, just in so far, to exactly that very degree, is Nibbana realizable right here and now in this very life, immediate, instant, inviting, interesting, and intelligible to each and every intelligent being... Follow this Golden Middle Way: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Golden_Middle_Way.htm Light it up by probing it with a beam of scrutinizing examination! Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 3:55 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Intelligent Invitation! #107813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 29, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Words of encouragement.no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Lodewijk sometimes feels discouraged because satipa.t.thaana is so difficult. He thinks that he can never understand what sati is. I am just reading to him Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 24, and this is full of encouragement. I repost a quote: We read in the ?Kindred Sayings?(I, Sagaathaa vagga, Ch IV, 2, Maara, ?6, the Bowl): On one occasion, at S?vatth?, the Exalted One was instructing, enlightening, inciting and inspiring the monks by a sermon on the five khandhas of grasping. And the monks with their whole mind applied, attentive and intent, listened with rapt hearing to the Dhamma... We then read that Maara wanted to distract the monks. He took the appearance of a bullock and went towards their bowls which were drying in the sun, whereupon the Buddha told the monks that it was not a bullock but Maara. The Buddha then said to Maara that the five khandhas are not self, and that the forces of Maara will never find the person who sees thus and has become detached, without defilements. The Commentary to this sutta, the ?Saratthappakaasinii?, gives an explanation of the words used in this sutta to describe the way the Buddha spoke to the monks while he was instructing them. He was inciting and inspiring them so that they would apply the Dhamma. In this connection, the Paali term ?samaadana? is used, which means: applying, undertaking what one considers worth while. The Buddha preached to the monks so that they would consider the Dhamma and have correct understanding of it. The Buddha explained the Dhamma for people?s benefit so that, when they had listened they could understand it and apply it. He explained the Dhamma in detail so that people would correctly understand kusala dhamma as kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma as akusala dhamma and not mistake akusala for kusala. Kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma have each their own characteristic and they should not be confused. The Buddha taught in all details about the five khandhas of grasping, which are citta, cetasika and ruupa. We cannot escape from the five khandhas, no matter where we go or what we are doing. People should carefully study and consider the five khandhas so that they will not have wrong view about them, but understand them as they are. The Commentary explains that the Buddha incited the monks so that they would have energy (ussaha) and perseverance for the application of the Dhamma. Right understanding of the Dhamma is not easy and it cannot be acquired rapidly, within a short time. The Buddha explained the Dhamma so that people would persevere in its application, have courage and take the effort to consider it carefully, in order to have right understanding of it. In this way sati could arise and be mindful of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life, and pa~n~naa could realize their true nature. The Buddha did not teach what cannot be verified, he did not teach what does not appear right now. The Buddha taught about seeing, about visible object appearing through the eyes, about hearing, the reality which experiences sound, about sound appearing through the ears, he taught about all realities which are appearing at this moment, which can be verified. People who have listened to the Dhamma can be encouraged to persevere with its application, to study the Dhamma, to consider it and to be aware again and again of the characteristics of realities which appear, so that their true nature can be realized, just as the Buddha taught. The Commentary also states in connection with the Buddha?s preaching, that the monks were inspired, gladdened and purified because of the benefit they acquired from their understanding of the Dhamma. (to be continued) ****** Nina. #107814 From: "connie" Date: Sat May 29, 2010 6:10 pm Subject: Re: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff nichiconn dear kenH, aleX, in the usual course of events, it's turned out that any attempts in these directions appear as miserable failure, tho not so completely perhaps as those involved in holding one's breath; In any event, the steepest cliff may be the wall of my own thinking. oof. da roof. please, where is a doorway? i should like to ease on over to and out, peace, c. #107815 From: "connie" Date: Sat May 29, 2010 6:33 pm Subject: ps. re cliffhanging adventures nichiconn dear alex, just my own thinking: when a disease is bound up with kammajarupa, it is not helped/cured by wishes or incantation. no trading with the devil ;) tho perhaps still spellbound. "one" must eat 'after seven' due to the weakness, i suppose, of the aharajarupas. their non arising even? something to do with nutritive essence as the 8th and jivitindriya, tho. chilled, but not freezing. be well, connie #107816 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat May 29, 2010 9:57 pm Subject: Re: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff kenhowardau connE, --------- > in the usual course of events, it's turned out that any attempts in these directions appear as miserable failure, tho not so completely perhaps as those involved in holding one's breath; --------- Let that be a lesson to us all. --------- > In any event, the steepest cliff may be the wall of my own thinking. oof. da roof. please, where is a doorway? i should like to ease on over to and out, --------- There is a way out, but no traveller on it, so don't hold your breath. :-) Ken H #107817 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat May 29, 2010 10:49 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107797) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: our mails may have intersected .....as mentioned I like to emphasize the Venerable's propositions ' What must be grasped is the difference between kamma in the context of natural law, and kamma in the context of ethics. snip.. But on the level of ethics, the teaching of kamma is meant to be used on a practical basis. Consequently, full responsibility is placed on the individual. This is emphasized in the Buddha?s words from the Dhammapada, "Be a refuge unto yourself." > =============== J: I wasn't sure what the Ven. meant by "the difference between kamma in the context of natural law, and kamma in the context of ethics". But the rest of the article I was able to follow OK. > =============== > as well as ' 'There is one question which, though only occasionally asked, tends to linger in the minds of many newcomers to the study of Buddhism: "Do the teachings of kamma and not-self contradict each other?" If everything, including body and mind, is not-self, then how can there be kamma? Who is it who commits kamma? Who receives the results of kamma? " > =============== J: The Ven. quotes a sutta where a bhikkhu had the following doubt, "We know that body, feeling, perception, volitional impulses and consciousness[b] are not self. If so, then who is it who receives the results of the kamma made by this 'non-self'?" The Buddha urges his listeners to develop the understanding of dhammas as not-self and to avoid 'rationalisation' of this kind. The Ven. adds the following comments, which are worth repeating: "the bhikkhu who conceived this doubt was confusing the description of the reality, which he had learned, with the convention, to which he still clung. This was the cause of his bewilderment and doubt. Referring to the original wording, it goes something like this: "If kamma is created by not-self, what self is it that receives the fruits of kamma?" The first part of the sentence is spoken according to his acquired knowledge of the reality, while the second part is spoken according to his own habitual perception. Naturally they don't fit." > =============== > Both issues , related to eachother, are quite often a matter of confusion. > =============== Yes, some people have difficulty rationalising the world of ultimate dhammas with the conventional world in which we live. Jon #107818 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 30, 2010 12:50 am Subject: Searching for Something Else! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The noble 8-fold way ends the 3 Searches: The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these three searches. What three? 1: The search for sense pleasure, 2: The search for becoming this and that, 3: The search for the pure, holy, & Noble Life. These are the three searches. The Noble 8-fold Way should be developed: For the direct experience of these three searches? For the complete understanding of these three searches? For the utter destruction of these three searches? For the overcoming and leaving all behind of these three searches? And how does a Bhikkhu do so? Here, friends, the Bhikkhu develops: Right View based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, culminating in release. Right Motivation removing greed, hate and ignorance when succeeding. Right Speech having the deathless as its base, destination, & last resort. Right Action flowing into & inclining towards Nibbana, the Highest Bliss! Right Livelihood based upon solitude, detachment, and relinquishment. Right Effort having the immortal as its source, and its journey's final end. Right Awareness removing of lust, anger & confusion as its ultimate aim. Right Concentration descending into Nibbana, the Highest Happiness! It is in this way, friends, that a Bhikkhu, comes to directly experience, fully understand, utterly destroy, completely overcome & leave all behind these three otherwise perpetual and truly endless searches? Searching by own light is easier especially when knowing what to look for! Comment: Search for pleasure: "May I have more sex, food, music, porn, drugs" etc... Search for becoming: "May I become rich, praised, famous, beautiful" etc... Search for the Noble Life: "There must be something else and higher!"... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:54-5] section 45: The Way. 161: The Searches ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 30, 2010 8:10 am Subject: Words of Encouragement, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of quote from Survey); Do we apply the Dhamma with perseverance and courage, and are we inspired and gladdened because of it? We can take courage and be inspired when kusala citta arises. Some people may be unhappy, they may worry about it that they are becoming older and that sati arises very seldom. When someone worries the citta is akusala. We should not because of the Dhamma worry, or have akusala cittas. The Buddha taught the Dhamma so that people would be encouraged to apply it, to develop it with perseverance and gladness, and be inspired by it. All akusala arises because of conditions, there is no self who can prevent its arising. When akusala citta has already arisen, we should not be downhearted, but we can take courage, and if there can be awareness of the characteristic of akusala which appears we can be inspired by the Dhamma. If we investigate the characteristic of akusala dhamma which appears at that moment, we shall know that it is not a being, not a person or self. We can clearly see that at the moment of awareness there is no akusala, that we are not downhearted. If one does not take akusala for self one will not be disturbed nor discouraged because of it. Akusala dhamma arises because of conditions, and when it has arisen, we should, instead of worry about it again and again, be aware of its characteristic, investigate it and understand it as not self. This is the only way to have less akusala and to eventually eradicate it. When satipa.t.thaana is developed people will come to know what it means to be inspired, gladdened and purified because of the benefit acquired from the realization of the Dhamma. They will experience that the truth of the Dhamma they realize is purifying and that it is to their benefit. We shall know this when the characteristics of realities can be known as they are. The monks were inspired and gladdened because of the benefit they acquired from the teachings. The Commentary adds: ?We all can attain this benefit.? The development of satipa.t.thaana should not discourage us. The realities which appear can be penetrated and realized as they are: they arise and fall away, they are not self, not a being or person. One should not worry about it that one cannot know today realities as they are. Sati can arise today and begin to be aware, and then the characteristics of realities will surely one day be wholly penetrated and clearly known as they are. If people understand the great value of the Dhamma, if they see that the truth of the Dhamma is to their benefit and that they can attain it one day, although not today, they will not be discouraged. They will continue to listen and to study the realities the Buddha taught in detail, and then there will not be forgetfulness of realities, there will be conditions for the arising of sati. (end quote) ***** Nina. #107820 From: si-la-nanda Date: Sun May 30, 2010 8:47 am Subject: Pitakas digitized by Pali Text Society, Google, etc ...@... www.Archive.org silananda_t source: www.Archive.org Search Results *Results:* 1 through 16 of *16* (0.006 secs) *You searched for:* pitaka AND mediatype:texts [image: [texts]] Dukapat?t?ha?na, vol. I, being part of the Abhidhamma pit?aka- Davids, Caroline A. F. Rhys (Caroline Augusta Foley Rhys), 1857-1942, ed Book digitized by Google from the library of the New York Public Library and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. Downloads: 34 [image: [texts]] The Vibhan?ga, being the second book of the Abhidhamma pit?aka- Davids, Caroline A. F. Rhys (Caroline Augusta Foley Rhys), 1857-1942, ed Book digitized by Google from the library of New York Public Library and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. Downloads: 35 [image: [texts]] The Vibhan?ga, being the second book of the Abhidhamma pit?aka- Davids, Caroline A. F. Rhys (Caroline Augusta Foley Rhys), 1857-1942, ed Book digitized by Google from the library of Harvard University and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. Downloads: 8 [image: [texts]] Dukapatthana, vol. 1, being part of the Abhidhamma pitaka. Edited by Mrs. Rhys Davids (Volume 1)- Patthana 26 Downloads: 184 [image: [texts]] The Samyutta-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. Edited by M. Léon Feer (Volume pt.1) - Pali Text Society (London, England) 26 Downloads: 897 [image: [texts]] The Samyutta-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. Edited by M. Léon Feer (Volume pt.3) - Pali Text Society (London, England) 26 Downloads: 583 [image: [texts]] The Samyutta-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. Edited by M. Léon Feer (Volume pt.4) - Pali Text Society (London, England) 26 Downloads: 573 [image: [texts]] The Samyutta-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. Edited by M. Léon Feer (Volume 3)- Pali Text Society (London, England) 26 45 Downloads: 414 [image: [texts]] The Vimana-Vatthu of the Khuddhaka nikaya Sutta pitaka. Edited by Edmund Rowland Gooneratne - Vimanavatthu Keywords: Buddha and Buddhism Downloads: 692 [image: [texts]] The Vimana-Vathu of the Khuddhaka nikaya Sutta pitaka. Edited by Edmund Rowland Goonerathe - Gunaratna, Edmund Rowland Keywords: Buddhism -- Sacred books Downloads: 623 [image: [texts]] Bhadanta?cariya Dhammapa?la the?ra's Paramattha di?pani?, or The commentary of the Udana of the Khuddaka Nika?ya, Sutta Pitaka- Dhammapa?la. [from old catalog] Book digitized by Google and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. Keywords: Tipit?aka; Transliteration Downloads: 24 [image: [texts]] Abstract of four lectures on Buddhist literature in China, delivered at University College, London- Beal, Samuel, 1825-1889 Early translators of Buddhist books in China.--On the method of Buddha's teaching as exhibited in the Vinaya Pitaka.--Asvaghosha.--Coincidences between Buddhism and other religious systems Keywords: Asvaghosa; Tipitaka; Buddhism -- China Downloads: 554 [image: [texts]] Buddhist Manual Of Psychological Ethics Of The Fourth Century B.C.- Davids, Caroline A. F. Rhys (Caroline Augusta Foley Rhys), 1857-1942 (Translator) A Buddhist manual of psychological ethics of the fourth century B.C., being a translation, now made for the first time from the original Pali, of the first book in the Abhidhamma pitaka, entitled, Dhamma-sangani (Compendium of states or phenomena) with introductory essay and notes by Caroline A. F. Rhys Davids [Uniform title: Tipitaka. Abhidhammapitaka. Dhammasangani. English] Keywords: Buddhism -- Psychology; Consciousness; Buddhist ethics Downloads: 1,906 [image: [texts]] A Manual of Abhidhamma - Narada Maha Thera A Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha) by Narada Maha Thera , 1979 , ISBN 967-9920-42-9 Dhammasangani ("Enumeration of Phenomena"). This book enumerates all the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities) to be found in the world. According to one such enumeration these amount to: 52 cetasikas (mental factors), which, arising together in various combination, give rise to any one of... ...89 different possible cittas (states of consciousness) 4 primary physical elements, and 23 physical pheno... Keywords: Abhidhamma; Pitaka; Narada; Abhidhammattha; Theravada; Buddhism; Buddha; Teachings Downloads: 174 [image: [texts]] Cullavaggo - Saddhtissa, Bentara, Thera 26 Keywords: Vinaya Pitaka Downloads: 11 [image: [texts]] Fundamental Abhidhamma- Dr. Nandamalabhivamsa Fundamental Abhidhamma, Part 1, Dr. Nandamalabhivamsa, 2005 Dhammasangani ("Enumeration of Phenomena"). This book enumerates all the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities) to be found in the world. According to one such enumeration these amount to: 52 cetasikas (mental factors), which, arising together in various combination, give rise to any one of... ...89 different possible cittas (states of consciousness) 4 primary physical elements, and 23 physical phenomena derived from them Nibbana Keywords: Abhidhamma; Pitaka; Buddhism; Theravada; Buddha; Teachings Downloads: 83 #107821 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 30, 2010 5:32 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: (D:I wonder whether we can say 'Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' , Howard. There is choice of focus , isn't it? Or would you describe that solely to right effort? ) ---------------------------------------------------------- Focusing really amounts to an excluding of many things from attention by emphasizing one gross category of phenomenon such as a repeated sound or image, external or mental . That is fine for entering absorptive jhanas, but is not the sort of sharp attention that I view as characteristic of Buddhist meditation. Maintaining a steady and strong mindfulness is a guarding of the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor. It keeps attention present on whatever arises, including craving. But if one is constantly on the lookout just for craving, the mind will be wound up tight and will miss the very craving it is looking to spot. It is when the mind is relaxed, clear, and attentive to whatever arises, not picking and choosing, that wisdom has a chance of arising. One may initially create a basic layer of calm by focusing techniques, but that is just preliminary, IMO D: I hesitated with my answer .. having some difficulties to see your point .. Talking about the development of mindfulness , the Maha Satipatthana Sutta emphasizes ' remain focused ' in respect to all four references, but of course attention only to one gross category at a time. It may be useful to discuss this more in detail . I suggest to take the introduction of Thanissaro Bhikkhu as a base ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html ) and talk about with what we do or don't agree . For example the Venerable states that the' basic layer of calm ' ( keeping in- and out breathing in mind ) should be kept all the time , i.e. not just 'preliminary' . My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' . However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it? The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and consequently sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?) with Metta Dieter #107822 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun May 30, 2010 5:49 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon , you wrote: I wasn't sure what the Ven. meant by "the difference between kamma in the context of natural law, and kamma in the context of ethics". But the rest of the article I was able to follow OK.' D: as far as I understand the difference concerns D.O. stating the fact of kamma and its possible breakdown / cessation , and the application of wholesome kamma as a mean of the path aiming cessation .. with Metta Dieter #107823 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 30, 2010 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 5/30/2010 1:33:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: (D:I wonder whether we can say 'Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' , Howard. There is choice of focus , isn't it? Or would you describe that solely to right effort? ) ---------------------------------------------------------- Focusing really amounts to an excluding of many things from attention by emphasizing one gross category of phenomenon such as a repeated sound or image, external or mental . That is fine for entering absorptive jhanas, but is not the sort of sharp attention that I view as characteristic of Buddhist meditation. Maintaining a steady and strong mindfulness is a guarding of the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor. It keeps attention present on whatever arises, including craving. But if one is constantly on the lookout just for craving, the mind will be wound up tight and will miss the very craving it is looking to spot. It is when the mind is relaxed, clear, and attentive to whatever arises, not picking and choosing, that wisdom has a chance of arising. One may initially create a basic layer of calm by focusing techniques, but that is just preliminary, IMO D: I hesitated with my answer .. having some difficulties to see your point .. Talking about the development of mindfulness , the Maha Satipatthana Sutta emphasizes ' remain focused ' in respect to all four references, but of course attention only to one gross category at a time. It may be useful to discuss this more in detail . I suggest to take the introduction of Thanissaro Bhikkhu as a base ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html ) and talk about with what we do or don't agree . For example the Venerable states that the' basic layer of calm ' ( keeping in- and out breathing in mind ) should be kept all the time , i.e. not just 'preliminary' . My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' . However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it? The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and consequently sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?) -------------------------------------------------------- I understand the mind to be intentionally focused on the breath (or some other gross phenomenon) at first to establish a basic layer of calm, but then attention is widened to encompass all bodily sensations, and then all aspects of mentality as well, as they arise. The intention and effort involved is mainly to maintain mindfulness, staying present with whatever arises, changes, and ceases. During that process, both calm and clarity will increase, and, if this is done properly and conditions are good, wisdom may arise, and there may be a seeing through to reality. I understand the teaching given in the satipatthana, kayagotta, and anapanasati suttas to be that of an in-tandem meditation, and the jhanas attained to be ones in the midst of which investigation of phenomena is possible. ---------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107824 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 30, 2010 10:26 pm Subject: Why Cling to Noise & Panic? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Craving => Clinging => Fear => Panic => Suffering! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the things that can be clung to, that bind & their chain! Listen to that and pay attention: What, bhikkhus, are these phenomena, that can be clung to, that bind, and what is the very chain of this addictive slavery of sensing? The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind bhikkhus, are things that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust, longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the fear & panic of loosing it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... Only by directly knowing these 6 senses as they are, only by fully understanding these 6 sense sources, only by developing disgust towards and by leaving all behind these 6 originators of commotion & noise, is one capable of eliminating Suffering... All Craving - Creates Clinging... Culminating in Panic! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 89-90 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Clinging & Binding: 109-110. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107825 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: My siila issues sarahprocter... Hi Kevin (& Lukas), I'm surrounded by empty book-shelves and cupboards now that our personal goods have been shipped off to Australia.... It's quite nice too! Anyway, a chance to catch up a little and to say how I appreciated these comments you wrote ages ago: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > Hi Lukas, what is it that motivates us to do bad deeds? Of course there are many factors but we can say it always involves lobha and dosa. Both are always arise with delusion. They are good friends of delusion. Whenver there is lobha and dosa, there is moha at play. I find that it is simply good to reflect on this at times. I am not sure if it will help you. ... S: I think it is helpful to remember how moha is always at play, not only when we do bad deeds, but whenever any akusala arises at all, however slight the lobha or dosa may be and even when there's no lobha or dosa, but no kusala either! Yes, they are good friends of delusion.... Keep adding helpful reminders and quotes, Kevin! Metta Sarah ============ #107826 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Will, codetermination sarahprocter... Hi pt (& Alex), You were having a helpful discussion: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > A: The present choice is a complex thing that is based on various factor: > > 1) One's kamma > > 2) One's vipaka > > 3) Physical factors int/ext > > 4) Other people's kamma who are near you > > 5) Their vipaka > > ... > > Whenever there is moment of choice there is: > > a) What one wills now (Kamma) > > b) results of past volition (vipaka) > > c) current int/ext physical factors > > If we focus on one person at the moment, I feel we're missing quite a lot of important stuff in the above list: > > - present kamma (cetana) will be conditioned by other present dhammas, like a/kusala citta which will also make that cetana a/kusala, as well as feeling, perception, attention, etc. > > - past dhammas - e.g. the ones that have just fallen away, e.g. one javana citta being followed by the same javanas, etc. > > - anusayas, asavas, etc, which I'm not yet certain how to consider when it comes to conditionality, but which certainly play a part in every moment. > > Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can explain how all these come together in a moment to create an impression of choice taking place, though I suspect the best thing would be to read the guide to conditional relations or something like that. ... S: Doesn't it just come down to the delusion Kevin was referring to (in the message I just replied to) and in particular the atta-view? In other words, what is taken for choice are just different moments of thinking about various concepts. All such thinking is of course conditioned, as you've pointed out and there's no Self or entity of any kind who can make choices or have realities arise at will. Cetana arises with every single citta, as you both know. The cetana which is kamma accumulates by natural decisive support condition in particular. As you say, many different conditions come into effect, as summarised in the Guide you refer to. Metta Sarah ======== #107827 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Will, codetermination sarahprocter... Hi pt & Alex, And on the topic of choice and decision, I liked Lukas's comments I just re-read after posting my last message (#105986): >L: Alex, you cannont budge your hand even for a slice. There needs to be a proper conditions You cannot move your leg or finger or anything. This happens because of conditions not because YOU induced that. Ignorance makes us belive that happens, that is why that was explained that moha causes sankhara sankhara causes vinnyana and this all causes all misery. The end of misery, nibbana is not saomethin you achive. This is something that is happening when ignorance is gone.This is the end of moha. When I am going for a trip. I see how those different moments arises and how they are very conditioned. I plan to go to see that place or that, and I know this is a few fleeting moments of thinking and choosing. I never dont know where exactly I will go. This what will be choosen is conditioned, this is not you who choose anything. All your movements are conditioned, smile, minds of 'choosing', different 'wills'. Taking it for a Self is conditioned. vacisankharas that speaks are conditioned, siila is conditioned.< Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 31/5/10, sarah wrote: >S: Doesn't it just come down to the delusion Kevin was referring to (in the message I just replied to) and in particular the atta-view? In other words, what is taken for choice are just different moments of thinking about various concepts.... #107828 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:39 am Subject: Re: My siila issues sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, When I read the following from the Sangiiti Fives corner (#105941), I thought it might be relevant to some of your concerns: Walshe DN 33.2.1(19) 'Five mental blockages (ceto-khiilaa): Here, a monk has [iii 238] doubts and hesitations (a) about the Teacher, is dissatisfied and cannot settle doubt in his mind. Thus his mind is not inclined and cannot settle in his mind. Thus his mind is not inclined towards ardour, devotion, persistence and effort; (b) about the Dhamma ...; (c) about the Sangha ...; (d) about the training ...; (e) he is angry and displeased with his fellows in the holy life, he feels depressed and negative towards them. Thus his mind is not inclined towards ardour, devotion, persistence and effort. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi friends, > My siila is very weak. But what can I do? For so many years I couldnt get perfect siila. I tried so much. But actually the only moments of siila I've got is when I read Dhamma, when I see you, that you have so good siila. .... S: Aren't we talking about "doubts and hesitations"? Metta Sarah ====== #107829 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex) #105973 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >>A: Kamma is not pre-determined. There is no fatalism in "I had to kill..." It > originates within oneself (attasambhavam). > -------------------------------------------------- > ALL dhammas other than nibbana arise lawfully as the result of > conditions and not without cause. That includes all kamma/cetana. The theory that > kamma originates within itself is a self-causation theory and contrary to > the Dhamma. > The only dhamma that is uncaused and unconditioned is nibbana. It does > not arise in dependence on conditions, because it does not arise at all. > Neither arising nor ceasing is nibbana. > ------------------------------------------------- S: Nicely put, Howard. .... >>A: BTW, Abhidhamma Pitaka does have a book called Puggalapannati and mentions the word ~818 times. > ------------------------------------------------ >H: If it means what you say, I would consider that a reason for rejecting those parts of the Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- S: No, it means the opposite of what Alex says, so don't reject those parts of the Abhidhamma! It means that there are a multitude of dhammas about which the concept of puggala or people (i.e puggalapannati)are based on. Metta Sarah ========== #107830 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Kevin), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: >> Alex: "What you describe above is a sort of practice where you consider all that happens to be just citta, cetasika, rupa. <...> > Kevin: Dear Alex, wisdom is not self, nor is it gained by a self. It (wisdom) is a dhamma, a reality, a thing. It arises based upon certain conditions only. Striving for inumerable, uncountable aeons has not produced the result of wisdom which understands not-self. It has it's specific causes and conditions. ... S: This was nicely put as well. Alex, you also quoted a lengthy extract from someone about how all one needed to hear for suta-maya-panna was that dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta and then the road was clear for meditation (bhavana?). Something like that. I disagree. There has to be a lot more careful listening and consideration. Suta-maya-panna is not just a little bit of Abhidhamma book-work study. Atta-view is far too deeply rooted for the path to be so simple. Metta Sarah ======== #107831 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana sarahprocter... HI Alex (& Ken O), #105850 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >A: Remember the famous Dhp quote of "no wisdom without Jhana" and nibbana requiring Jhana and wisdom? > > KO: that does not change a thing about developing wisdom. One could develop wisdom without jhanas and Buddha is very clear about it, this is the vipassana method. Even for samantha method, there must be panna. ...> S: And furthermore, in the Dhp quote, as has been pointed out dozens of times, the jhana is referring to lokuttara jhana, not mundane jhana. Metta Sarah ======== #107832 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:44 am Subject: Re: "luminous nature" and Wrong Views sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, #105971 I was interested that you picked up on this point from the discussions: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Some of the wrong views I fell into are touched on here (Discussions in Bangkok (at the Foundation) in 2005 on29 March, > morning session:(3) ) by the participants including Ajahn, Sukin, and Vince, (and I'm not sure who else participated) where they talk about the "luminosity" of vinana or consciousness. Alot of these later schools, especially vajrayana talk about the luminous and empty nature of vinana. They don't posit that it is a self, but they think that understanding the luminous and "empty" nature of vinana is the path. ... S: Often it is believed that there is an underlying luminosity. We have to read each sutta carefully in context. Pabhassara can refer to nibbana or to citta. The pabhassara citta which is undefiled arises and falls away like any other. I'll be interested to hear any further comments you'd like to share. See also a big section on "luminous" in UP, if you have time. Metta Sarah p.s This was Vince T, not Vince from Spain who writes here, on the recording. I think we were there as well. =========== #107833 From: "sarah" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 9:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 sarahprocter... Hi Jon & Alex, #105841 You were having a good and useful discussion here: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (105799) > > > J: Any kind of 'practice' that is not accompanied by panna will be >wrong practice. > > > > And who is telling here to practice without understanding? Which teacher says this, which sutta? > > =============== > > J: When a person meditates, is there only kusala? > > To my understanding, there cannot be continuous kusala, let alone kusala of the level of panna. So if a conventional activity is undertaken as a form of practice (whether it be sitting and focussing on/paying attention to something, or reading with a view to prompting the arising of kusala), there will necessarily be akusala and this akusala will be wrong practice. .... S: Look forward to reading many more.... Metta Sarah ======= #107834 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Howard ( Jon..), you wrote: 'My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' . However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it? The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and consequently sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?) -------------------------------------------------------- I understand the mind to be intentionally focused on the breath (or some other gross phenomenon) at first to establish a basic layer of calm, but then attention is widened to encompass all bodily sensations, and then all aspects of mentality as well, . D : I agree , in particular to : " but then attention is widened " ! , i.e. using then attention to the breath like when the monkey (mind) rests on one branch , investigating the djungle. H: ...as they arise. The intention and effort involved is mainly to maintain mindfulness, staying present with whatever arises, changes, and ceases. D: I think we need to distinguish the training of sati and sati in daily life. For the former right effort should be assumed , i.e. guarding the senses in respect to avoid, to overcome , to develop , to maintain. It means active direction to contemplate e.g. the dead body , or aspect of the Dhamma .. Having laid the foundation of the 4 frameworks , we can be aware/knowing of whatever arises, changes, and ceases in daily practise. Perhaps you have meant this too (?) H: During that process, both calm and clarity will increase, and, if this is done properly and conditions are good, wisdom may arise, and there may be a seeing through to reality.I understand the teaching given in the satipatthana, kayagotta, and anapanasati suttas to be that of an in-tandem meditation, and the jhanas attained to be ones in the midst of which investigation of phenomena is possible. D: this is my understanding so far as well. Coming back to the issue of will/cetana /kamma , it seems to me an important matter much too seldom discussed .. with Metta Dieter #107835 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 31, 2010 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 5/31/2010 1:06:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard ( Jon..), you wrote: 'My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' . However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it? The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and consequently sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?) -------------------------------------------------------- I understand the mind to be intentionally focused on the breath (or some other gross phenomenon) at first to establish a basic layer of calm, but then attention is widened to encompass all bodily sensations, and then all aspects of mentality as well, . D : I agree , in particular to : " but then attention is widened " ! , i.e. using then attention to the breath like when the monkey (mind) rests on one branch , investigating the djungle. H: ...as they arise. The intention and effort involved is mainly to maintain mindfulness, staying present with whatever arises, changes, and ceases. D: I think we need to distinguish the training of sati and sati in daily life. -------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I agree. ---------------------------------------------------- For the former right effort should be assumed , i.e. guarding the senses in respect to avoid, to overcome , to develop , to maintain. It means active direction to contemplate e.g. the dead body , or aspect of the Dhamma .. Having laid the foundation of the 4 frameworks , we can be aware/knowing of whatever arises, changes, and ceases in daily practise. Perhaps you have meant this too (?) ------------------------------------------------------ While meditating, I think right effort is primarily involved with maintaining the mindfulness that avoids getting lost in thought, in excitement, and in sloth & torpor. In daily life, it is more general I think, being involved with ongoing introspection to be aware of kusala and akusala, fostering the first and resisting the second. This daily-life practice is very important. ---------------------------------------------------- H: During that process, both calm and clarity will increase, and, if this is done properly and conditions are good, wisdom may arise, and there may be a seeing through to reality.I understand the teaching given in the satipatthana, kayagotta, and anapanasati suttas to be that of an in-tandem meditation, and the jhanas attained to be ones in the midst of which investigation of phenomena is possible. D: this is my understanding so far as well. Coming back to the issue of will/cetana /kamma , it seems to me an important matter much too seldom discussed .. ------------------------------------------------ Folks on DSG don't discuss it much because they associate it, I believe, with self-view. ------------------------------------------------ with Metta Dieter ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107836 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:07 pm Subject: Re: Fw: Awakening Within this very life itself! jonoabb Hi Alex (and Phil) (107767) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > ... > Again, even if we buy into the theory of Accumulations, unless we possess clayrvoyance, we do not know how much accumulations we have! > =============== J: A person who has heard and understood the teachings about satipatthana would have a reasonable idea of the level of development of awareness/insight gained to date. > =============== > You may say that "oh I have so much anger, etc etc". Well, Angulimala killed 999 people. How much anger (dosa) did that require? He still managed to become an Arahat. So has anyone killed anyone? How about 999 people?! Again, the unwholesome states of mind that appear don't need to refute your past accumulations, just as with Angulimala. > =============== J: To my understanding, it's not the strength of the akusala that's important, but the level to which satipatthana/insight has been developed. Is this what you're saying here (if so, I agree ;-))? > =============== > Why does it sound like Devadatta (who according to Jatakas was mostly a Bad guy opposing the Buddha and committing atrocity after atrocity) supposedly gets a quicker way out than a decent person? > =============== J: It all depends on the level to which panna has been developed in previous lives. Jon #107837 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (and Howard) (107779) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: did you read Howard's comment?: > " I think you may both be right in this. :-) > Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so. In this respect, I believe you are correct, Jon. > =============== J: I'm not sure I see things quite the way Howard thinks I do ;-)) I would put it this way: Mindfulness chooses an object of its own accord; it does not need an object to be chosen for it. > =============== > I wonder whether we can say 'Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' , Howard. > There is choice of focus , isn't it? Or would you describe that solely to right effort? > =============== J: You are referring here to the references in the suttas to 'remaining focussed', etc. To my understanding, these are references to actual moments of awareness/insight, rather than to the conventional idea of choosing an object for mindfulness to be aware of. > =============== > And yes, being mindful may avoid the trap : when pleasant or unpleasant feeling becomes emotion/urge/thirst and consequently clinging, > Satipatthana doesn't give priority to this point as Jon mentioned .. the reason certainly that we need to establish the necessary level of skillful mindfulness before it works "nipped in the bud" , i.e advancement in equanimity. > > By ' obvious ' I meant the relation of vedana and tanha with the first and second Noble Truth ( whereas the Noble Path approaches this 'problem') > =============== J: I'm still not getting it, I'm afraid. Sorry about that. > =============== > J: : To my understanding, samadhi need not (and in fact cannot) be developed separate from the development of awareness/insight itself. > > D: difficult to distinguish ..therefore right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are grouped together under the the samadhi sequence of the path training... > =============== J: To my understanding, the path factors are mental factors that arise together with a moment of awareness/insight. Thus, they are not factors to be separately and individually developed. Jon #107838 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff jonoabb Hi Alex (107776) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > ... > If there is No Self, then why doesn't one jump off the cliff or drive into a tree at 100 km/h? Why doesn't one drive through a busy intersection on a red light, and waits until green light only? There is no self, cliffs, cars, traffic lights or trees! > =============== J: These questions remind me of the question in the sutta discussed in the article quoted by Deter (I think you've read it). There, a monk wonders: "We know that body, feeling, perception, volitional impulses and consciousness are not self. If so, then who is it who receives the results of the kamma made by this 'non-self'?" The author of the article comments as follows: <> http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/037-payutto2.htm > =============== Why eat, drink, put on the cloth, avoid harm, etc - if there is no self? Bare Selfless phenomena do exist, even if they can be taken apart. But none of this means that we can ignore or forget about "conventional" reality. It is solid, so don't drive into a tree at 100 km/h or try a head on collision between "non-existent things and non-existent people". > =============== J: The question, "If there's no self, why bother to eat, why bother to avoid injury to oneself?" is another instance of mixing the absolute with the conventional. People eat because (a) the body needs sustenance and (b) there is attachment to taste, etc. People avoid injuring themselves because injuries result in painful bodily feeling. But at the same time, all dhammas are impermanent, dukkha and 'not-self'. There's no conflict or contradiction here. > =============== > Don't forget about conventional reality! Conventionally it does exist. > =============== J: The dhammas spoken of by the Buddha do not form part of the conventional world as known to a person who has not heard the teachings. However, having knowledge (limited, in our case) of dhammas does not mean that the conventional world suddenly disappears or has no relevance. It simply means that the distinction between the absolute and the conventional is more clearly understood. Jon #107839 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107822) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Jon , > > you wrote: > > I wasn't sure what the Ven. meant by "the difference between kamma in the context of natural law, and kamma in the context of ethics". But the rest of the article I was able to follow OK.' > > D: as far as I understand the difference concerns D.O. stating the fact of kamma and its possible breakdown / cessation , and the application of wholesome kamma as a mean of the path aiming cessation .. > =============== J: Sorry, but I'm still none the wiser. The problem is really that the Ven. author does not explain what he means by the terms "kamma in the context of natural law" and "kamma in the context of ethics", so we would really only be speculating. If the distinction is a meaningful one for you, please elaborate on your remarks above (if it's not, then perhaps we should move on ;-)). Jon #107840 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 12:15 am Subject: Who or rather What! is the Creator? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: No Agent or Actor exists! Only Impersonal Processes Unfolds! Question: Who is the Creator ??? Answer: Nobody is the Creator of anything!!! Q: What then is Creating ??? A: Ignorance and Craving is Creating!!! Q: What is Ignorance & Craving Creating ? A: Ignorance & Craving Creates Suffering!!! Question: Who Perceives ??? Answer: Nobody Perceives anything!!! Q: What then is Perceiving ??? A: The Perception process itself Perceives!!! Q: What do Perception Perceive ??? A: Form, sound, smell, taste, touch & thoughts!!! Question: Who Feels ??? Answer: Nobody Feels anything!!! Q: What then is Feeling ??? A: The process of Feeling itself feels!!! Q: What do Feeling feel ??? A: Feeling feels pleasure, pain & neutrality!!! Question: Who is the Knower ??? Answer: Nobody is the Knower of anything!!! Q: What then is Knowing ??? A: The state of Knowledge itself knows!!! Q: What is Knowledge Knowing ??? A: Knowledge knows: Such is Pain, the Cause of Pain, the End of Pain, and the Way to End all Pain!!! There exist no static entities anywhere! Entities implying stability are just language conventions. All phenomena are dynamic processes enacted by selfless, ownerless and coreless conditions... <..> ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY CREATOR! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107841 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 7:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 kenhowardau Hi Dieter and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Coming back to the issue of will/cetana /kamma , it seems to me > > an important matter much too seldom discussed .. > ------------------------------------------------ > Folks on DSG don't discuss it much because they associate it, > I believe, with self-view. > ------------------------------------------------ In Useful Posts there are 23 entries under "Freewill? Determinism? Fatalism?" and more under 'Willing', 'Effort', 'Cetana'". I think one of Howard's (103004) sums it up: "Not quite so easy, I think, Alex. There is, indeed, exertion. But it is conditioned, is it not? And, in fact, it entirely depends on conditions without any aspect of its arising being unconditioned, is that not so? And as for there being the *possibility* for developing pa~n~na etc, is that not also entirely determined by conditions and not random? What do we really mean by "free will"? I think it actually comes down to the fact that there are thought processes that consider and compare alternative actions, matching them against desired goals, and culminating in an act of volition. We *call* that process "deciding" and "exercising free will," but none of it is free in the sense of being random or unconditioned." Ken H #107842 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Pariyatti and patipatti truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, thank you for your reply. > L: I dont understand much of this word "practice". I always wonder >what that mean. But for sure wise attention and siila, samadhi, panna >are bhavana - the mental development. Practice = Bhavana, Bhaveti Kusala qualities. With metta and best wishes, Alex #107843 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:25 pm Subject: Re: Fw: Awakening Within this very life itself! truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex (and Phil) > > (107767) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > ... > > Again, even if we buy into the theory of Accumulations, unless we possess clayrvoyance, we do not know how much accumulations we have! > > =============== > > J: A person who has heard and understood the teachings about >satipatthana would have a reasonable idea of the level of >development of awareness/insight gained to date. Not necessarily. Self deception (even unintentional) is common. Ven. Sariputta himself didn't know about existence of preliminary stages prior to Arhatship. There can be a worldling who overestimates his state merely due to temporary absence of gross defilements. > > =============== > > You may say that "oh I have so much anger, etc etc". Well, Angulimala killed 999 people. How much anger (dosa) did that require? He still managed to become an Arahat. So has anyone killed anyone? How about 999 people?! Again, the unwholesome states of mind that appear don't need to refute your past accumulations, just as with Angulimala. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, it's not the strength of the akusala that's important, but the level to which satipatthana/insight has been developed. Is this what you're saying here (if so, I agree ;-))? > According to the suttas (such as 4 modes of progress, somewhere in AN book of 4s), akusala tendencies do vary in strength, and the stronger they are - the more painful the path is. Here, bhikkhus, a certain one by nature is greedy and suffers constantly on account of greed, by nature is hateful and suffers constantly on account of hatefulness, by nature is deluded and suffers constantly on account of delusion. His faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are blunt as a result he realizes the destruction of desires slowly with successive leading. Bhikkhus, to this is said the difficult means and slow realization. Here, bhikkhus, a certain one by nature is not greedy and does not suffer constantly on account of greed, by nature is not hateful and does not suffer constantly on account of hatefulness, by nature is not deluded and does not suffer constantly on account of delusion. His faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are blunt as a result he realizes the destruction of desires slowly with successive leading. Bhikkhus, to this is said the pleasant means and slow realization. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanip\ ata/017-patipadavaggo-e.html > > =============== > > Why does it sound like Devadatta (who according to Jatakas was mostly a Bad guy opposing the Buddha and committing atrocity after atrocity) supposedly gets a quicker way out than a decent person? > > =============== > > J: It all depends on the level to which panna has been developed in previous lives. > > Jon > So, are you saying that devadatta had really a lot of panna? Perhaps more than us? But he is the one who committed heinous crimes (would you try to kill the Buddha or incite someone to kill a father?) According to Jatakas, he often has been that way! Where are the Jatakas of Devadatta being a a very wholesome person collecting paramis for pacekka Buddha stage?!!! With metta, Alex #107844 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, > Hi Alex > J: Whether a person is capable of enlightenment within a given >lifetime depends on whether panna has been sufficiently developed in >previous lifetimes. Right. And it is also possible that more people have this capability than they think. > > In the case of a person who has not yet heard the dhamma (in the >present lifetime), that previously developed panna is still latent, >and so accumulated akusala tendencies including those involving >wrong view(as in the case of Angulimala) will manifest unchecked. I do not fully agree here. What is the point in accumulations if they cannot stop very bad qualities such as killing. I can agree that a person may accumulate meritorious qualities and wrong view such as (attavada). But many good qualities that a person can accumulate are not exclusive to Buddhism (such as abstention from killing, loving kindness, mercy, etc). How could Angulimala accumulate so much good qualities and yet be a mass murderer? What is the point in accumulations then, if they can't stop such things and in some cases seem to be no better than not having much of them? With metta, Alex #107845 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:36 pm Subject: choice without a chooser truth_aerator Hello Sarah, Pt all, There can be an action without an actor. There is thinking without The Thinker. So why can't there be "choice made" without a chooser? Why can't there be choice, determination, wish-to-do, etc (cetana, adhimokkha, chanda, adhitthana etc) that is fully conditioned and anatta? With metta, Alex #107846 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Driving into trees and falling off the cliff truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, Thank you for your reply (#107838). With metta and best wishes, Alex #107847 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinna & memory of past lives truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for this and other replies. With metta and best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 27-mei-2010, om 15:03 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > I wonder, how is abhinna of recollecting past lives classified? Is > > it kusala or vipaka citta? Can it be based on akusala citta? > -------- > N: The Vis. XIII, 13 gives a good description. He recollects with > mindfulness and knowledge. One has to attain the fourth jhaana and > then emerge from it, and then jhaana is the basis for such > recollection. It is with mahaakusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa > or, in the case of arahats, with mahaa-kiriyacitta accompanied by > pa~n~naa. > Vis: > We read that other sectarians, ordinary disciples, Great Disciples, > Chief disciples, Pacceka Buddhas and Buddhas can recollect this past > life. There are different degrees of the ability to recollect the > past in the case of these six kinds of people. > ------- > > > > A: Why can a person recollect at least some events from this life, > > yet not be able to recollect previous life? Other than "reach 4th > > sutta jhana", is there another explanation? > -------- > N: They do not have enough sati and pa~n~naa, and conditions have to > be fulfilled, attaining the fourth stage of jhaana. > -------- > > > > A: Some children had spontaneous recollections of former lives and > > some claim to be able to recall past lives through hypnotic > > regression (which isn't 4th sutta or 5th Abhidhamma jhana). > -------- > N: Yes, I read about cases in Sri Lanka. I cannot explain why. > Perhaps former accumulated skill? People get very involved in such > stories, but this distracts from understanding the present moment. It > distracts from the essence of the teachings. > > ****** > Nina. > #107848 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Will, codetermination truth_aerator Hello Pt, Sarah, Nina, all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi pt (& Alex), > > You were having a helpful discussion: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > A: The present choice is a complex thing that is based on various factor: > > > 1) One's kamma > > > 2) One's vipaka > > > 3) Physical factors int/ext > > > 4) Other people's kamma who are near you > > > 5) Their vipaka > > > ... > > > Whenever there is moment of choice there is: > > > a) What one wills now (Kamma) > > > b) results of past volition (vipaka) > > > c) current int/ext physical factors > > > > If we focus on one person at the moment, I feel we're missing quite a lot of important stuff in the above list: > > > > - present kamma (cetana) will be conditioned by other present dhammas, like a/kusala citta which will also make that cetana a/kusala, as well as feeling, perception, attention, etc. > > > > - past dhammas - e.g. the ones that have just fallen away, e.g. one javana citta being followed by the same javanas, etc. > > > > - anusayas, asavas, etc, which I'm not yet certain how to consider when it comes to conditionality, but which certainly play a part in every moment. > > > > Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can explain how all these come together in a moment to create an impression of choice taking place, though I suspect the best thing would be to read the guide to conditional relations or something like that. > ... > S: Doesn't it just come down to the delusion Kevin was referring to (in the message I just replied to) and in particular the atta-view? In other words, what is taken for choice are just different moments of thinking about various concepts. All such thinking is of course conditioned, as you've pointed out and there's no Self or entity of any kind who can make choices or have realities arise at will. Cetana arises with every single citta, as you both know. The cetana which is kamma accumulates by natural decisive support condition in particular. > As you say, many different conditions come into effect, as summarised in the Guide you refer to. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > But is there cetana? What is it? Is there adhimokkho? What is it? Is there adhitthana? What is it? Or course none of the decision making processes is made or controlled by the Self (there isn't The Self). However, decision, choosing, etc does happen - right? With metta, Alex #107849 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 5:56 pm Subject: Choice and path to awakening truth_aerator Hello all, "What's striking about the Buddha's knowledge is the implied "if": If people want to gain Awakening they will have to follow this path, but the choice as to whether they want Awakening is theirs. The Buddha's knowledge of the future didn't mean that the future was preordained, for people are free to choose. They can take up a particular course of action and stick with it, or not, as they see fit. The Buddha thus based all his teaching on freedom of choice. As he said, if everything were predetermined by the past, there would be no point in teaching a path to Awakening. The number of people who would reach Awakening would already have been set a long time ago, and they would have no need for a path or a teacher. Those preordained to awaken would get there inevitably as a result of a long-past action or an essential nature already built into the mind. Those preordained not to awaken wouldn't stand a chance. But these things are not preordained. No one is doomed never to awaken, but ? until you've had your first sight of the deathless at stream-entry ? neither is Awakening assured. It's contingent on intentional actions chosen in each present moment. And even after stream-entry, you're constantly faced with choices that will speed up final Awakening or slow it down. Nibbana, of course, is independent and unconditioned; but the act of awakening to nibbana depends on a path of practice that has to be willed. It happens only if you choose to give rise to its causes. This, as the Buddha noted, involves determining to do four things: not to neglect discernment, to preserve truth, to develop relinquishment, and to train for peace." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/freedomfrombuddhanature.ht\ ml What do you think? Do you agree, disagree? With metta, Alex #107850 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 3:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Choice and path to awakening upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/1/2010 2:03:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello all, "What's striking about the Buddha's knowledge is the implied "if": If people want to gain Awakening they will have to follow this path, but the choice as to whether they want Awakening is theirs. The Buddha's knowledge of the future didn't mean that the future was preordained, for people are free to choose. They can take up a particular course of action and stick with it, or not, as they see fit. -------------------------------------------------- As they see fit (which is one category of condition) but also depending on other conditions. Moreover, "as they see fit" is itself conditioned and not random. ------------------------------------------------- The Buddha thus based all his teaching on freedom of choice. ------------------------------------------------ hjat exactly do you *mean* by freedom of choice. Certainly choices are made. What does it mean to make them *freely*? --------------------------------------------- As he said, if everything were predetermined by the past, there would be no point in teaching a path to Awakening. ----------------------------------------------- At any point in time, what is an event determined by other than what has already occurred. What else could possibly be a factor? ---------------------------------------------- The number of people who would reach Awakening would already have been set a long time ago, and they would have no need for a path or a teacher. ---------------------------------------------- Having a teacher and having heard the correct teaching is necessary. But whether one gets to hear the Dhamma or not isn't random, is it? It comes about due to prior causes and conditions, does it not? --------------------------------------------- Those preordained to awaken would get there inevitably as a result of a long-past action or an essential nature already built into the mind. Those preordained not to awaken wouldn't stand a chance. ---------------------------------------------- Without the requisite conditions for an event having occurred, the event cannot occur, can it? It seems to me that you wish for a world of randomness in which events can occur without precondition. If I am wrong, can you explain to me how I am wrong? ------------------------------------------------ But these things are not preordained. ------------------------------------------------ The word 'preordained' has a divine predestination sense to it and it suggests that willing is impossible and not a factor in things. That makes it a poor word to use, because there is no cosmic dictator and willing IS an essential factor in things. But the simple fact is that everything, and that includes willing itself, occurs only in the event that requisite preconditions for it have occurred. Nothing happens randomly. ------------------------------------------ No one is doomed never to awaken, but — until you've had your first sight of the deathless at stream-entry — neither is Awakening assured. It's contingent on intentional actions chosen in each present moment. ------------------------------------------- I honestly don't know. Perhaps there are conditions which, should they occur, definitely preclude ever awakening. I simply don't know, because I don't know everything that has ever happened. Kamma and conditionality-in-general are incredibly complex and certainly beyond my knowing. In any case, it is a certainty that without specific conditions being met, and until they are met, awakening will not occur. Awakening, as with all other events, depends on conditions and is not random. It is not a matter of "grace". ----------------------------------------- And even after stream-entry, you're constantly faced with choices that will speed up final Awakening or slow it down. Nibbana, of course, is independent and unconditioned; but the act of awakening to nibbana depends on a path of practice that has to be willed. ------------------------------------------ I agree with that. The willingness and effort to engage in that practice, however, is not random, but occurs, if it does, due to conditions. ----------------------------------------- It happens only if you choose to give rise to its causes. ------------------------------------------ Useful kamma is a requisite. No doubt. That kamma, however, is itself due to prior conditions. It is not random. ------------------------------------------ This, as the Buddha noted, involves determining to do four things: not to neglect discernment, to preserve truth, to develop relinquishment, and to train for peace." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/freedomfrombuddhanatur e.html What do you think? Do you agree, disagree? ------------------------------------------------------ Well, ... both it seems! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107851 From: "Christine" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 7:45 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga Talks by Venerable Say?daw U S?l?nanda christine_fo... Hello all, Not sure if this has already been posted here, but here is a link to Visuddhimagga Talks by Venerable Say?daw U S?l?nanda http://thepathofpurification.blogspot.com/ with metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --- #107852 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 3:52 pm Subject: Extreme-Typo Correction (Re: [dsg] Choice and path to awakening) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/1/2010 3:43:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: hjat exactly do you *mean* by freedom of choice. =============================== The preceding gibberish was meant to be "What exactly do you *mean* by freedom of choice?" :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107853 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 8:46 pm Subject: (Re: [dsg] Choice and path to awakening) truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 6/1/2010 3:43:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > hjat exactly do you *mean* by freedom of choice. > =============================== > The preceding gibberish was meant to be "What exactly do you >*mean* by > freedom of choice?" :-) > > With metta, > Howard That wasn't my article, so I would have to guess what the Ven. meant. What it could have meant is that some choices are not inevitable and it is possible to eventually develop kusala qualities (almost) no matter what was done long long time in the past. I like the word inevitable better than pre-ordained. With best wishes, Alex #107854 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 9:04 pm Subject: Kamavacara citta in Rupa/Arupa lokas truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, Can Kamavacara citta occur in rupaloka? Can kamavacara citta occur at the dying moment in aruppa loka? If not, how can there be rebirth to kamaloka from arupaloka? I am sorry if it is too basic question. But as I understand it, rupa loka does include seeing & hearing (except for asannasatta devas) With metta, Alex #107855 From: "Dianna" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 5:00 pm Subject: my intro twinmomdianna I just joined the group and wanted to introduce myself. I'm 36. Married for 11 years. Stay at home mom of two year old twin boys. Two daughters who are 13 and 16. They live with their dad. Live in Rhode Island with my husband who is a contractor. My reason for joining the group as I would love to know more about Theravada Buddhism. I at this point practice Tibetan Buddhism, but I want to understand more about the other schools of Buddhism. I am working on getting back on my path, as it was twisted for a bit and I was not practicing any form of Buddhism. When I first started years back, I can not tell you why I started with Tibetan Buddhism, without any notion of seeing about the other schools of Buddhism. I do not want to limit myself. I want my eyes open, my heart open to what is out there. So I hope you do not mind me joining. I truly want to learn more about Theravada Buddhism. Dianna #107856 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 8:43 pm Subject: Re: (Re: [dsg] Choice and path to awakening) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and all) - In a message dated 6/1/2010 4:47:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 6/1/2010 3:43:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > hjat exactly do you *mean* by freedom of choice. > =============================== > The preceding gibberish was meant to be "What exactly do you >*mean* by > freedom of choice?" :-) > > With metta, > Howard That wasn't my article, so I would have to guess what the Ven. meant. What it could have meant is that some choices are not inevitable and it is possible to eventually develop kusala qualities (almost) no matter what was done long long time in the past. I like the word inevitable better than pre-ordained. With best wishes, Alex =================================== Yes, 'inevitable' is better than 'preordained'. But I would like to side-step both as well as their negations, and go into the matter in a deeper way. Where I think there lies a problem is in conflating inevitability with predictability (i.e., knowing in advance). I do believe that at any moment, whatever occurs does so entirely due to the conditions that preceded it (and they on their preconditions, and so on).. However, that being the case does not imply at all that it's occurrence could have been predicted. Every event that occurs has to have always had to occur, because all the preconditions for it have occurred prior to it, and they had to occur, because all of *their* preconditions occurred prior to them, and so on and so forth. But because the preconditions for an event may be near-infinite or even infinite, yet our knowledge is quite finite, that knowledge is typically inadequate to know in advance. We have the *sense* that there is just a probability of something occurring, not a necessity one way or the other, but what that really means is that *based on what we know* we can only associate an estimated likelihood of the event occurring. This pertains to prediction, but not to fact. After exactly 17 seconds from sending off this post, my mind state will be exactly one of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. There is no way in the world for me to know which it will be, but it will be exactly one of these, and the die has already been cast. In the sense of it's being unprefictable, and only in that sense, it is not determined which. But in terms of conditionality, it is already determined, because, otherwise, at some point, a random event would have to occur - and there are no random events. I see no middle way between conditionality-determinicity and independence from conditions. There only SEEMS to be, and that is due to our inability to predict with certainty. I would dearly love for there to be a middle way here, and I will bow to anyone who could show it to me without presupposing randomness, i.e., non-conditionality. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107857 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 1:51 am Subject: Re: my intro kenhowardau Hi Dianna, Welcome to DSG. ------ D: > My reason for joining the group is I would love to know more about Theravada Buddhism. ------ Theravada Buddhism is a *middle way* that is neither eternal-life belief nor annihilation belief - nor any combination of the two. If it doesn't strike you as a profound, unique, and entirely satisfactory explanation of the way things are then you haven't found it yet. But at DSG you have at least found the right place to look. :-) Ken H #107858 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 11:35 pm Subject: How does Kamma Cause Rebirth? bhikkhu.sama... Friends How does Kamma Cause Rebirth? In Majjhima Nikaya 135 a brahman raises the problem: There are found people who are short-lived, and those that are long-lived; there are found people who are very sick, and those that are healthy; there are found people who are ugly, and also those that are beautiful; there are found people who are powerless, and those that are powerful; there are found people who are poor, and those that are rich; there are found people who are of low family, and those that are of high family; there are found people who are stupid, and those that are intelligent. What then, Master Gotama, is the reason for this diverse inferiority & superiority among human beings? The Blessed One replied: Beings are owners of their kamma, inherit their kamma, kamma is their maker and creator, they are born from and by their kamma, kamma is the womb from which they emerge, they are linked and associated to their past kamma as their friend and refuge... Therefore does kamma divide beings into the high and low, beautiful and ugly! In Anguttara Nikaya III,40 it is said: "Killing, stealing, adultery, lying, backbiting, harsh angry speech and empty prattling, practiced, cultivated and frequently engaged in, will lead to hell, the animal world or the realm of ghosts." Further: "Whoso kills and is cruel, will either go to hell, or if reborn as a human, will be short-lived. Whosoever tortures other beings, will be afflicted with disease. The hater will be ugly & hideous, the envious will be without influence, the stubborn will be of low rank, the indolent will be ignorant. In the reverse case, a person will be reborn in a heavenly world; or, if reborn as a human being, and will be endowed with health, beauty, influence, riches, noble rank and intelligence." In the Milindapa?ha the King asks the Arahat Nagasena: What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn after death? O King: A psycho-physical combination of mentality-&-materiality (name-and-form = nama-rupa). But how? Is it the same psycho-physical name-and-form combination as this present one? No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces kammically advantageous and disadvantageous intentional activities, and through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be created, conditioned and born. Source: The Milindapa?ha Buddhaghosa explains in his Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification): Whosoever has no clear idea about death and does not know that death consists in the dissolution of the five groups of existence (i.e. form, feeling, perception, mental formations, & consciousness), he thinks that it is a person, or being, that dies and transmigrates to a new body in a new place. And whosoever has no clear idea about rebirth, and does not know that rebirth consists in the arising of the five groups of existence, he thinks that it is a person, or being, that is reborn, or that the person reappears in a new body. And whosoever has no clear idea about Samsara, the round of rebirths, he thinks that a real person wanders from this world to another world, comes from that world to this world, etc. And whosoever has no clear idea about the phenomena of existence, he thinks that the phenomena are his ego or something appertaining to the ego, or something permanent, joyful, or pleasant. And whosoever has no clear idea about the conditional arising of the phenomena of existence, and about the arising of kammic volitions conditioned through ignorance, he thinks that it is the ego that understands or fails to understand, that acts or causes to act, that enters into a new existence at rebirth. Or he thinks that the atoms or the Creator, etc., with the help of the embryonic process, shape the body, provide it with various faculties; that it is the ego that receives the sensuous impression, that feels, that desires, that becomes attached, that enters into existence again in another world. Or he thinks that all beings come to life through fate or chance. A mere phenomenon it is, a conditioned thing, that rises in the following existence. But not from a previous life does it transmigrate there, and yet it cannot arise without a previous cause. When this conditionally arisen bodily-mental phenomenon (the fetus) arises, one says that it has entered into a next existence. However, no being (satta), or life-principle (jiva), has transmigrated from the previous existence into this existence, and yet this embryo could not have come into existence without a previous cause. Source: Visuddhimagga (Chap. XVII) Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple sees only mental and material phenomena kept going through the interlocking of causes and effects. No producer of the intentional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma activity itself, and no recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result itself. And he is well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language, when with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or an agent, or with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the result. No doer of the deeds is found, No one who ever reaps their fruits: Only Empty phenomena roll on as conditioned states: This only is the correct view. The deeds and their results roll on and on, all being conditioned by other phenomena. In this infinite causal matrix, there is no ultimately first beginning to be found, just as it is with seed and tree... No god, no Brahma, can be called The maker of this wheel of life: Only selfless phenomena roll on, all being dependent on and created by their causal conditions... Source: Visuddhimagga (Chap. XIX). The Excerpts here are from: Kamma and Rebirth by Nyanatiloka MahaThera: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html#ch2 Reborn again! <...> Rebirth and Kamma! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107859 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 5:05 am Subject: Re: Kamavacara citta in Rupa/Arupa lokas rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Nina, all, > > > Can Kamavacara citta occur in rupaloka? > > Can kamavacara citta occur at the dying moment in aruppa loka? If not, how can there be rebirth to kamaloka from arupaloka? > > I am sorry if it is too basic question. But as I understand it, rupa loka does include seeing & hearing (except for asannasatta devas) > > > With metta, > > Alex > Good question Alex Yes kamavacara citta can occur in rupaloka. But the dieing moment -cuticitta -is not kamavacara in rupaloka. However it is not the cuticitta that detemines rebith realm but the moments in the proceses leading up to cuti-citta. robert #107860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro nilovg Dear Dianna. Op 1-jun-2010, om 19:00 heeft Dianna het volgende geschreven: > I do not want to limit myself. I want my eyes open, my heart open > to what is out there. > So I hope you do not mind me joining. I truly want to learn more > about Theravada Buddhism. ------- N: Welcome here and thank you for introducing yourself. I especially like your last sentences. The Buddha taught us exactly about all objects that can be experienced and all experiences. He taught about what is ocurring at the present moment, his teaching is very realistic. Like now: there is seeing. Seeing is an experience, which can only occur because of the right conditions being there. Without eyesense and that which is seen, visible object, there could not be seeing. Whatever arises because of conditions cannot be directed or manipulated by 'me' or a self. We learn that seeing is only a conditioned mental phenomenon, not "I who sees". The Buddha taught about all the different experiences on account of the objects that can be experienced through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. He taught about our reactions to what we experience: our attachment, aversion and ignorance. Most of the time we cling to what we see or hear. He also taught the eradication of all that is unwholesome. He taught us to develop non-attachment, non-aversion and understanding. More understanding of all that is real leads to detachment from the wrong view of self. You want to know more about what is out there, but do not forget to understand what is 'inside'. Ken H said that dsg is a suitable place. You can ask any question here. Nina. #107861 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 11:19 am Subject: Re: my intro jonoabb Hi Dianna Welcome to the list from me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dianna" wrote: > > So I hope you do not mind me joining. I truly want to learn more about Theravada Buddhism. I think you've come to the right place. Just ignore things that are more detailed than you need, and don't hesitate to ask for any explanation! I hope you find your stay here rewarding. Jon #107862 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes sarahprocter... Dear Vince, Thank you for sharing all your comments in this thread. --- On Wed, 26/5/10, Vince wrote: > note "understanding" was not the Buddha word for the truth > but it is > panna. What we name "understanding" is just a product of > the reason. > This understanding is a preliminar of panna. > If we use "understanding" as a synonym for panna, then > such > understanding also includes metta. ... S: Clearly we have a different understanding of what "understanding" means as a translation of panna! Btw, where do you live in Spain? Do you have any friends you can discuss the Dhamma with there? Were you able to listen to any of the K.Sujin discussions? Metta!! Sarah ======= #107863 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 1:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro sarahprocter... Dear Dianna, Like the others, I'm glad to welcome you here and thank you for your great intro! I'm sure the two-year-old twin boys keep you pretty busy:-). Dhamma and meditation in action.... Metta Sarah --- On Wed, 2/6/10, Dianna wrote: >I just joined the group and wanted to introduce myself. I'm 36. Married for 11 years. Stay at home mom of two year old twin boys. Two daughters who are 13 and 16. They live with their dad. Live in Rhode Island with my husband who is a contractor. <...> #107864 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 1:43 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter and Howard (107821) > [H:] Focusing really amounts to an excluding of many things from attention by emphasizing one gross category of phenomenon such as a repeated sound or > image, external or mental . That is fine for entering absorptive jhanas, but is not the sort of sharp attention that I view as characteristic of > Buddhist meditation. > Maintaining a steady and strong mindfulness is a guarding of the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, > planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor. It keeps attention present on whatever arises, including craving. > =============== J: The class of potential objects of awareness/insight is much broader than is encompassed by the idea of "guarding the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor". For that reason, I would say that having that as one's frame of reference amounts to a kind of focussing. To my understanding, at the precise moment of any awareness/insight, there *is* the guarding of the mind against those things. The moments of consciousness before and after, however, may be akusala. > =============== > [D:] It may be useful to discuss this more in detail . I suggest to take the introduction of Thanissaro Bhikkhu as a base ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html ) and talk about with what we do or don't agree . > For example the Venerable states that the' basic layer of calm ' ( keeping in- and out breathing in mind ) should be kept all the time , i.e. not just > 'preliminary' . > =============== J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds in the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of certain modern-day 'commentators'. > =============== > [D:] My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' . > However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it? > The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and consequently > sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?) > =============== J: Had to smile here: Howard being faulted for lack of recognition of the role of will/cetana ;-)) For your information, Dieter, Howard is a champion of the role of cetana in the development of awareness/insight. Jon #107865 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 1:46 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107834) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: I think we need to distinguish the training of sati and sati in daily life. > =============== J: This distinction -- between the 'training of sati' and 'sati in daily life' -- is not a distinction I'm familiar with. Is there a textual basis for it? What does it mean exactly? Jon #107866 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 1:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard (107835) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > D: Coming back to the issue of will/cetana /kamma , it seems to me an > important matter much too seldom discussed .. > ------------------------------------------------ > Folks on DSG don't discuss it much because they associate it, I > believe, with self-view. > =============== J: You're suggesting that certain 'folks on DSG' (presumably that includes me ;-)) associate cetana/kamma with self-view. That's not so, speaking for myself at least. What is sometimes associated with self-view here is the conventional idea of making a deliberate effort as regards the development of awareness/insight; but this is a reference to a course of action (i.e., to a concept), not to the dhamma that is cetana/kamma. Cetana/kamma is a mental factor that accompanies citta and, as such, is an impersonal, conditioned element. Jon #107867 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 2:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? sarahprocter... Dear Howard, Lukas and Azita, --- On Sun, 23/5/10, upasaka@... wrote: >>A: "Frivolous talk is talk about idle senseless things; things which do not lead to the goal of liberation." - found this among my scribbles. >L: Frivolous speach is one of the hardest thing to refrain for me. I still dont know, how to speak less. I enjoy conversations with my friends and those are just useless idle speech. ---------------------------------------------------------- H:> Lukas, what if in part these conversations express love of people? What if in part they express friendship? The speech itself may just be a vehicle. ---------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, like Azita, I remember that when Ven Dhammadharo was a bhikkhu, (not as a layman), he often used to refer to the importance of restraining from frivolous talk about "senseless things". Most of us here are lay people and I agree with the sentiment behind Howard's words. It's not the topic of the talk, but the cittas that count. Nina sometimes refers to an occasion long ago in Sri Lanka when she felt somewhat dismayed because K. Sujin was chatting about flowers and other seemingly "senseless things" with our hosts. There was also lots of chatter about sarees, food and daily topics. The point is, that we can talk about the others' interests with metta, lobha or dosa. Who knows? Only panna. K.Sujin was showing friendliness and kindness whilst talking about such seemingly non-dhamma topics. As we know, any citta, any moment is Dhamma. I was thinking of this example while I was talking to my mother (in England) on the phone at the weekend. She has a large garden in which she works very hard. Last weekend, the whole village had their gardens on show and so we had a lot of flower-talk. This is what interests her, not talking about dhammas as anatta! ... >L:But this is very pleasant. I am sad when I have to be silent. ... S: So it's not kusala when you're silent either! Again, it seems to be judging the situation rather than developing understanding naturally. .... >L:choose any word, this is conditioned. I dont know when I will speak in a right way, this can happen or not. --------------------------------------------------------- >H: Your speech on DSG has never once been wrong speech that I have seen. Why not just drop all your concern? ------------------------------------------------------- S: Again, I agree with Howard's sentiment. What's the use of all the concern? Isn't it just accumulating more attachment to oneself? ... >L:I know that I cannot choose my words, they are conditioned, but I can have metta for people when they speak much or saying disagreeable words to me. This is all conditioned. I have metta for others, but I dont have metta to myself. --------------------------------------------------------- >H:Are you any less worthwhile than anyone else? Having metta for others and none for oneself is, in a perverse way, a type of conceit. :-) Just drop comparing. ---------------------------------------------------------- S: Here, I don't agree with either of you. The characteristic of metta is friendliness to others, not to oneself. I agree with the "just drop comparing", but not with the idea of having metta to oneself. I believe that what is taken for self-metta a "cheating dhamma" for self-attachment. Thanks to all for the interesting reflections. Metta Sarah ======== #107868 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 3:28 pm Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? szmicio Dear Sarah, > ---------------------------------------------------------- > S: Here, I don't agree with either of you. The characteristic of metta is friendliness to others, not to oneself. I agree with the "just drop comparing", but not with the idea of having metta to oneself. I believe that what is taken for self-metta a "cheating dhamma" for self-attachment. L: You said metta is friendliness, but this can be easily lobha. friendliness means also lobha. If you want to have metta to others, first you have metta to yourself. I get metta when I see people quarreling or do bad things. Then I know I did it before, and no judgment just forgetting all what happend, no judgment. The best condition for metta is rememebering all is conditioned, all can happend to us, the same with others, no control. Best wishes Lukas #107869 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Dieter) - In a message dated 6/2/2010 9:44:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Dieter and Howard (107821) > [H:] Focusing really amounts to an excluding of many things from attention by emphasizing one gross category of phenomenon such as a repeated sound or > image, external or mental . That is fine for entering absorptive jhanas, but is not the sort of sharp attention that I view as characteristic of > Buddhist meditation. > Maintaining a steady and strong mindfulness is a guarding of the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, > planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor. It keeps attention present on whatever arises, including craving. > =============== J: The class of potential objects of awareness/insight is much broader than is encompassed by the idea of "guarding the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor". For that reason, I would say that having that as one's frame of reference amounts to a kind of focussing. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jon, when I said that mindfulness guards against being swept away by various things, it could have just as well been stated positively as "mindfulness guards staying present with whatever arises". You are misinterpreting me. Mindfulness guards against getting caught by the hindrances, enabling staying alertly present with whatever arises. ------------------------------------------------------------- To my understanding, at the precise moment of any awareness/insight, there *is* the guarding of the mind against those things. The moments of consciousness before and after, however, may be akusala. > =============== > [D:] It may be useful to discuss this more in detail . I suggest to take the introduction of Thanissaro Bhikkhu as a base ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html ) and talk about with what we do or don't agree . > For example the Venerable states that the' basic layer of calm ' ( keeping in- and out breathing in mind ) should be kept all the time , i.e. not just > 'preliminary' . > =============== J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds in the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of certain modern-day 'commentators'. ---------------------------------------------------------- I believe you are mistaken in this, Jon. There are loads of suttas in which sila is urged to calm the mind, thereby supporting entry to jhanas, and jhanas are urged for calming the mind. There is also at least one sutta that describes how a calm mind is like a placid pool of water in which a variety of phenomena are easily visible due to it's clarity. Conversely, in some suttas the lack of clarity in an uncalm mind is likened to an agitated pool of water that consequently cannot be seen into. ----------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > [D:] My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' . > However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it? > The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and consequently > sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?) > =============== J: Had to smile here: Howard being faulted for lack of recognition of the role of will/cetana ;-)) For your information, Dieter, Howard is a champion of the role of cetana in the development of awareness/insight. ---------------------------------------------- You are right in that, Jon. :-) ----------------------------------------------- Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #107870 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon (and Dieter) - In a message dated 6/2/2010 12:15:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds in the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of certain modern-day 'commentators'. ---------------------------------------------------------- I believe you are mistaken in this, Jon. There are loads of suttas in which sila is urged to calm the mind, thereby supporting entry to jhanas, and jhanas are urged for calming the mind and enabling insight. There is also at least one sutta that describes how a calm mind is like a placid pool of water in which a variety of phenomena are easily visible due to it's clarity. Conversely, in some suttas the lack of clarity in an uncalm mind is likened to an agitated pool of water that consequently cannot be seen into. ----------------------------------------------------------- =================================== I might also point to the Upanisa Sutta. It includes the following, where "-->" indicates support: tranquillity --> happiness --> concentration --> knowledge & vision of things as the are --> disenchantment --> dispassion --> emancipation --> destruction of cankers With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107871 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 6:28 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Howard and Jon, you wrote: J: The class of potential objects of awareness/insight is much broader than is encompassed by the idea of "guarding the mind against falling prey to being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor". For that reason, I would say that having that as one's frame of reference amounts to a kind of focussing. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jon, when I said that mindfulness guards against being swept away by various things, it could have just as well been stated positively as "mindfulness guards staying present with whatever arises". You are misinterpreting me. Mindfulness guards against getting caught by the hindrances, enabling staying alertly present with whatever arises. ------------------------------------------------------------- To my understanding, at the precise moment of any awareness/insight, there *is* the guarding of the mind against those things. The moments of consciousness before and after, however, may be akusala. D: the aspect of guarding the senses refers to right effort and covers all what is important by stating: avoid , overcome the unwholesome, and generate , maintain the wholesome > =============== > [D:] It may be useful to discuss this more in detail . I suggest to take the introduction of Thanissaro Bhikkhu as a base ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html ) and talk about with what we do or don't agree . > For example the Venerable states that the' basic layer of calm ' ( keeping in- and out breathing in mind ) should be kept all the time , i.e. not just > 'preliminary' . > =============== J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds in the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of certain modern-day 'commentators'. ---------------------------------------------------------- I believe you are mistaken in this, Jon. There are loads of suttas in which sila is urged to calm the mind, thereby supporting entry to jhanas, and jhanas are urged for calming the mind. There is also at least one sutta that describes how a calm mind is like a placid pool of water in which a variety of phenomena are easily visible due to it's clarity. Conversely, in some suttas the lack of clarity in an uncalm mind is likened to an agitated pool of water that consequently cannot be seen into. ----------------------------------------------------------- D: no doubt about the emphases of a calm or peaceful mind within the suttas ...not to talk about other faithes . I recall an ancient Indian saying : fast mind- a fool, slow mind -a holy man, quite mind -god ..an universal truth > =============== > [D:] My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' . > However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it? > The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and consequently > sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?) > =============== J: Had to smile here: Howard being faulted for lack of recognition of the role of will/cetana ;-)) For your information, Dieter, Howard is a champion of the role of cetana in the development of awareness/insight. ---------------------------------------------- You are right in that, Jon. :-) ----------------------------------------------- D: well, that may be so ..but when you read the line again 'The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?)' you will recognize that I refer to this special context bes?des waiting to be corrected by adding '(?)' with Metta Dieter #107872 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: 'D: I think we need to distinguish the training of sati and sati in daily life. > =============== J: This distinction -- between the 'training of sati' and 'sati in daily life' -- is not a distinction I'm familiar with. Is there a textual basis for it? What does it mean exactly? D:sati patthana and sati .... with Metta Dieter #107873 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Jon) - In a message dated 6/2/2010 2:29:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: J: Had to smile here: Howard being faulted for lack of recognition of the role of will/cetana ;-)) For your information, Dieter, Howard is a champion of the role of cetana in the development of awareness/insight. ---------------------------------------------- You are right in that, Jon. :-) ----------------------------------------------- D: well, that may be so ..but when you read the line again 'The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?)' you will recognize that I refer to this special context bes?des waiting to be corrected by adding '(?)' ================================ Yes, Dieter, you are correct about that specific context. As I recall, it pertained to willfully being aware of craving. My point was that an overall mindfulness will allow the awareness of craving, but a specific attempt to catch craving per se is likely to fail. We can become aware of things, but rarely by means of a frontal attack. More typically it is accomplished indirectly in causal stages. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107874 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 7:06 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 moellerdieter Hi Jon (and Howard, KenH), (H: Folks on DSG don't discuss it much because they associate it, I > believe, with self-view. > =============== J: You're suggesting that certain 'folks on DSG' (presumably that includes me ;-)) associate cetana/kamma with self-view. That's not so, speaking for myself at least. What is sometimes associated with self-view here is the conventional idea of making a deliberate effort as regards the development of awareness/insight; but this is a reference to a course of action (i.e., to a concept), not to the dhamma that is cetana/kamma. Cetana/kamma is a mental factor that accompanies citta and, as such, is an impersonal, conditioned element. D: avijja -sankhara ...the ignorant (force of ) will , isn't that (including) the delusion ( identification with ) self ? ... and what means khanda attachment ? ...and why is conceit only abolished only with the attainment of Arahantship ? I think there is confusion , what may be concluded by pure reason and what has been realized by penetration ( disentchantment, dispassion..) with Metta Dieter #107875 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 8:30 pm Subject: Re: Kamavacara citta in Rupa/Arupa lokas truth_aerator Hello Robert, all, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, all, > > > > > > Can Kamavacara citta occur in rupaloka? > > > > Can kamavacara citta occur at the dying moment in aruppa loka? If not, how can there be rebirth to kamaloka from arupaloka? > > > > I am sorry if it is too basic question. But as I understand it, rupa loka does include seeing & hearing (except for asannasatta devas) > > > > > > With metta, > > > > Alex > > > Good question Alex > Yes kamavacara citta can occur in rupaloka. Does it say somewhere as to how often kamavacara citta occur in rupaloka? What is the difference between rupavacara & kamavacara citta? Both can see & hear right? Also as I remember, some kamavacara cittas can have some jhanic factors like (piti, sukha, ekaggata, vitakka, vicara). So the difference isn't just in presence of those 5 factors in rupavacara citta. It seems to me that the only major difference is that there is kama (sensuality) that comes with kamavacara citta, but then the Arahants have no kama and they may be in kamavacara loka, right? > But the dieing moment -cuticitta -is not kamavacara in rupaloka. >However it is not the cuticitta that detemines rebith realm but the >moments in the proceses leading up to cuti-citta. > robert As I understand it, the citta takes the "sign of destiny" and if it belongs to kamaloka, then I figure that the sign is perception of kamaloka or kamavacara. So lets say that arupa brahma is about to pass away and be reborn in kama loka. Would the sign percieved in arupa loka be kamavacara citta? With metta, Alex #107876 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 8:39 pm Subject: suppression of hindrances truth_aerator Hi Jon, Dieter, all, > J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds >in the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of >certain modern-day 'commentators'. It is called access concentration in later texts. And in the suttas, they do talk how 5 hindrances need to be suppressed first. AN5.51 "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Guess what was the most typical instance when 5 hindrances are suppressed... With metta, Alex #107877 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 9:09 pm Subject: Difference between conventional and unconventional actions truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, > >J: What is sometimes associated with self-view here is the >conventional idea of making a deliberate effort as regards the >development of awareness/insight; but this is a reference to a >course >of action (i.e., to a concept), not to the dhamma that is >cetana/kamma. And how is studying and reading Abhidhamma, suttas, etc, different from "conventional idea of making a deliberate action?" Is studying and reading Abhidhamma, suttas, etc, convention action? Wasn't there deliberate choice, Jon, to visit this page and read this post? If it is ok, then why isn't meditation (with panna of course!) ok? With metta, Alex #107878 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 2, 2010 10:44 pm Subject: Focused and Fused! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: These 7 States are Focused on 1 single object: Nibb?na! The Awareness Link to Awakening is foremost, in the sense of rolling overall like a wheel. The Investigation Link to Awakening is the chief, in the sense of greatness like an elephant. The Energy Link to Awakening is prime, in the sense of being swift & strong like a horse. The Joy Link to Awakening is vital, in the sense of giving brilliant radiance like a jewel. The Tranquillity Link to Awakening, is primary in the sense of soothing like a mild woman. The Concentration Link to Awakening, is best in the sense of giving wealth like a treasurer. The Equanimity Link to Awakening is supreme, in the sense of ballance like a good advisor. These seven links to awakening are thus like the 7 treasures of a wheel-turning monarch. They awaken beings into the state of entering the stream leading to the deathless Nibb ana. They further awaken beings into the state of returning here as human only one more time. They furthermore awaken beings into the state of never returning here as human again. They finally fully awaken beings into the state of Arahatship by complete Enlightenment! When these seven states coincide simultaneously; fused into the same assemblage; all being joined focused on only one single and same object: Nibb ana, then Awakening occurs... This 7-fold supreme culmination is the final Enlightenment!!! Yeah... Awakening is 7 mental qualities focused on 1 single object... <.... Awakening is a phase transition of consciousness... Local to => Universal + Discrete to => Continuous!!! Enlightenment transcends both time and space & is thus inexpressible! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <....> #107879 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 3:18 am Subject: Understanding dhamma is like learning a new language farrellkevin80 I was listening to a talk from January 2007 on dsg.org. In the talk Ajahn Sujin said in response to someones question (a non-Thai foreigner) about not being able to sustain moments of awareness that it was like seeing the Thai alphabet. The first time you see it, you do not understand anything. With some practice it starts to become more and more clear. Eventually you can read Thai and will understand it all. I think this really rings true. Understanding Dhamma and developing awareness is like learning a new language. It is not some technique that we can go do or something we can just induce through somehow having a still mind or by doing kusala deeds; it is something else entirely, something we have to learn new. We have to learn to understand reality and realities on a conceptual level first. That is like understanding the new alphabet. Then, finally, we can learn read the language and develop wisdom. These are just some thoughts I had from hearing Ajahns explanation on the file. Kevin The Lost Trailers: http://www.vevo.com/watch/the-lost-trailers/country-folks/USBVA0900012 #107880 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 3:39 am Subject: Not posting lately farrellkevin80 Hi everyone. I just wanted to write a short note about my not posting at all lately, as there was a point a month or so ago where I was posting regularly. I needed a little break from thinking about Dhamma so excessively. For years now I have been a Buddhist and have done a lot of thinking about the path. Finally I needed a bit of a break from thinking about it and discussing it so much. Not a break from having faith in the Triple Gem or in trying to understand it but just a break from thinking, talking, and reading about Dhamma for large portions of time. I just let myself enjoy other activities for a few weeks and I notice my mind coming back to the way it was before but slightly more refreshed! I guess everybody needs a rest from time to time. Kevin #107881 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not posting lately sarahprocter... Hi Kevin & all, --- On Thu, 3/6/10, Kevin F wrote: >...I just let myself enjoy other activities for a few weeks and I notice my mind coming back to the way it was before but slightly more refreshed! >I guess everybody needs a rest from time to time. .... S: Your note just caught my attention. As K.Sujin would say, it's all Dhamma and they are all dhammas, no matter the activities, rest or non-rest. Any moment, any reality, understanding can arise. If we start obsessing about what could have been or what we might do or not do in the future, we're just distracted from the understanding of the present reality. Like you, I've had a bit of a break from writing and discussing much Dhamma as a result of all that's been involved in our imminent (unexpected) move. But again, like you, the confidence in the Triple Gem and in particular in the power of panna to arise any time, any moment, means I don't fret about not having time for writing, discussion, reading or peace and quiet even. As an update for others, Jon and I are now camping in an empty flat - well, empty of belongings and books, but still with lots of empty book-cases, cabinets and so on. I rather like it - a very zen-ish feel to just have a bare desk and travel computer, 2 old mugs, some plastic cutlery, a few old clothes and that's about it! We laughed yesterday evening when we got out a couple of cans and found we no longer had a can-opener. And for my tai-chi, no shoes and then no hairbrush when I was going out, no charger for my mobile phone, no belt to go with Jon's suit for a parliamentary meeting - (perhaps I've mentioned all this - quite forgotten!)..... more stories, but again, all just dhammas, just the world of paramattha dhammas, the fine-balancing act of the inner and outer ayatanas and that's all! Anything else is like a puff of smoke from a fire, gone even more quickly... Jon's just back from purchasing another microphone to replace the one that went off like the shoes, can-opener and belt with the Shippers.... We're trying to do the finishing touches on the July 07 recordings to upload before we leave.... Just blog away about your daily life, helpful reminders and whatever you feel like telling us about, Kevin.... it's all Dhamma... all parmaatthas... Metta Sarah ===== #107882 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 6:42 am Subject: Re: suppression of hindrances kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------- <. . .> A: > Guess what was the most typical instance when 5 hindrances are suppressed... ------- By "most typical" do you mean most common? If so, my guess would be dana, and I think the second most common would be sila. Third would be samatha with concentration at access level or below. Fourth would be mundane path consciousness (satipatthana), but that is significantly different from the others. It doesn't just suppress the hindrances, it also erodes the conditions for them (and for all other forms of akusala). In all of these cases, the suppression would last for only seven [javana] cittas. The next most common would be samatha with jhana concentration. Here the suppression would last for more than seven cittas. In the present age jhana is almost extinct, so I don't know if it would be more, or less, common than supramundana vipassana (stream entry and beyond), which is also extremely rare, of course. :-) Ken H #107883 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding dhamma is like learning a new language nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 3-jun-2010, om 5:18 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > These are just some thoughts I had from hearing Ajahns explanation > on the file. ------- N: I like it very much when you express some thoughts on what you heard on the recording. But do not force yourself in writing. I also take pauses, and this is because of circumstances, having to finish proofreading or another project, or an outing or so. Nina. #107884 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 8:07 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series no 17. Death and Rebirth. nilovg Dear friends, Death and Rebirth. What is birth, and what is it actually that is born? We speak about the birth of a child, but in fact, there are only n?ma and r?pa which are born. The word ``birth'' is a conventional term. We should consider what birth really is. In order to understand what causes birth we should know what conditions the naama and ruupa which arise at the first moment of a new lifespan. The citta which arises at that moment is called the rebirth- consciousness or pa.tisandhi-citta. Pa.tisandhi means relinking, it ?links? the previous life to the present life. It is usually translated as rebirth-consciousness, but, since there is no person who is reborn, birth-consciousness would be more correct. Since there isn't any citta which arises without conditions, the pa.tisandhi- citta must also have conditions. The pa.tisandhi-citta is the first citta of a new life and thus its cause can only be in the past. One may have doubts about past lives, but how can people be so different if there were no past lives? We can see that people are born with different accumulations. Cittas which arise and fall away succeed one another and thus each citta conditions the next one. The last citta of the previous life (dying-consciousness) is immediately succeeded by the first citta of this life, without there being any interval. That is why tendencies one had in the past can continue by way of accumulation from one citta to the next one and from past lives to the present life. Since people accumulated different tendencies in past lives, they are born with different tendencies and inclinations. Rebirth-consciousness is the result of kamma, it is vipaakacitta. Our life starts at the moment the pa.tisandhi-citta arises together with the ruupa which is at the same time produced by kamma. A lifespan ends when the last citta, the dying-consciousness (cuti-citta) falls away. Kamma produces r?pa not only at the first moment of life but throughout our life. Kamma does not only produce the vip?kacittas which experience pleasant and unpleasant objects through the sense- doors, it also produces throughout our life the ruupas which can function as the sense-doors through which these objects are received. Some kammas produce results in the same life in which they have been performed, some produce result in the form of rebirth-consciousness of a future life, or they produce result in the course of a future life. We have performed deeds in past lives which could produce rebirth but which have not yet come to fruition. We cannot know which kamma will produce our next rebirth. If akusala kamma produces the rebirth of the next life there will be an unhappy rebirth. In that case the cittas which arise shortly before the dying-consciousness are akusala cittas and they experience an unpleasant object. The pa.tisandhi-citta of the next life which succeeds the cuti-citta (the dying-consciousness), experiences that same unpleasant object. If kusala kamma produces the rebirth there will be a happy rebirth. In that case kusala cittas arise shortly before the cuti-citta and they experience a pleasant object. The pa.tisandhi-citta of the next life experiences that same pleasant object. The object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness may be a sign of kamma one performed, or a sign of one?s future destiny, or it may be any object experienced through one of the senses.The kamma that will produce the next rebirth conditions the last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta to experience that object. There is no self who transmigrates from one life to the next life; there are only naama and ruupa arising and falling away. The present life is different from the past life but there is continuity in so far as the present life is conditioned by the past. The Visuddhimagga (XVII, 164-168) explains by way of similes that although the present is different from the past there is continuity. The being who is born is not the same as the being of the past life, but it is conditioned by the past. There is ``neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness'', as the Visuddhimagga explains. We read with regard to the pa.tisandhi-citta: ?An echo, or its like, supplies The figures here; connectedness By continuity denies Identity and otherness. And here let the illustration of this consciousness be such things as an echo, a light, a seal impression, a looking glass image, for the fact of its not coming here from the previous becoming and for the fact that it arises owing to causes that are included in past becomings. For just as an echo, a light, a seal impression, and a shadow, have respectively sound, etc., as their cause and come into being without going elsewhere, so also this consciousness.? ******** Nina. #107885 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 5:35 am Subject: Fw: Aduren Eliyata08 Final_Video_Ape Soma Himi gemunu.rohana I would like to thank Dhammika for sharing following video links with everyone. Soma thero is one of the greatest Thripitakadhaari venerating theros we had lately. I am making these links available in the relevant page in the site too. http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/2010/03/in-memory-of-most-ven-gangodavila\ -soma.html I would like to mention that the above whole page I dedicated for Most Ven. Soma Thero is started with the content of the mails forwarded to me by Dhammika. May we all wish Nirvana through a wishing Bodhi for Dhammika for his wholesome deeds done on behalf of Venerating Gangodavila Soma thero. May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! Visit http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/ for freely downloadable Dharma content. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Dhammika Weerasinghe To: dhammika4@... Sent: Wed, June 2, 2010 11:58:27 PM <...> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwU4MS1PE34&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UnW6XUaQ7o&feature=related #107886 From: Vince Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: Clearly we have a different understanding of what > "understanding" means as a translation of panna! but you know the Buddha after his enlightenment he started to teach others and we named it "metta". According PTS, Panna means "endowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition". Do you understand the Buddha action different of wisdom?. I mean, if it was wisdom arising from a complete understanding of nama and rupa, Can we conceive metta as a different thing of wisdom then panna? > Btw, where do you live in Spain? Do you have any friends you can > discuss the Dhamma with there? Were you able to listen to any of the > K.Sujin discussions? sorry, I don't understand you here. What do you mean?. best, #107887 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to induce right speach? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Wed, 2/6/10, Lukas wrote: >> S: Here, I don't agree with either of you. The characteristic of metta is friendliness to others, not to oneself. I agree with the "just drop comparing", but not with the idea of having metta to oneself. I believe that what is taken for self-metta a "cheating dhamma" for self-attachment. >L: You said metta is friendliness, but this can be easily lobha. ... S: By "friendliness to others", I mean "being a good friend to others", acting out of kindness and consideration for others, not for oneself or one's own interest or feelings. I agree that often what is taken for being friendliness or kindness is actually lobha. .... >friendliness means also lobha. ... S: I would say this isn't true friendliness. "Fake friendliness" as some might say. .... >If you want to have metta to others, first you have metta to yourself. ... S: Here, I think you're very much mistaken. I think this idea causes tremendous grief. What is taken as "metta for oneself" is definitely lobha! Metta always has others' interests, not one's own interests as object. We learn to treat others as we like to be treated. .... >I get metta when I see people quarreling or do bad things. Then I know I did it before, and no judgment just forgetting all what happend, no judgment. ... S: I think that when we have metta for others, we don't have any thought or concern about ourselves at all. ... >The best condition for metta is rememebering all is conditioned, all can happend to us, the same with others, no control. ... S: Yes, understanding about conditioned dhammas definitely is a condition for more metta. I think that understanding the value of being kindly disposed, helping when we have an opportunity, thinking of others' welfare, forgetting about ME for a change is also important. When we wish to have more metta, more right speech, then we're back to being self-obsessed without any metta for others. Metta Sarah ====== #107888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamavacara citta in Rupa/Arupa lokas nilovg Dear Alex, Op 2-jun-2010, om 22:30 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Does it say somewhere as to how often kamavacara citta occur in > rupaloka? --------- N: No, but lifespan in the brahmaplanes is extremely long. Cittas cannot be counted. ---------- > > A: What is the difference between rupavacara & kamavacara citta? --------- N: Rupaavacaaracitta has as object the meditation subjects of jhaanacitta, it is a plane of citta higher than kaamaavacaaracitta. The aim of jhaana is to be free from sense objects and the defilements that are bound up with them. Kaamaavacara-citta has as object the objects that are not those of jhaanacitta and lokuttara citta, it is the lowest plane of citta. It 'frequents' sense objects. -------- > > A: Both can see & hear right? ------ N: No, jhaanacitta does not see or hear. Note the difference between plane of citta and plane of existence. There are four planes of citta: the sensuous plane, the ruupa-plane, the aruupa-plane and the lokuttara plane. The object citta experiences determines the plane of citta. Jhaanacitta does not experinece a sense object, but in the ruupa- brahma-plane there arise cittas of the sensuous plane of citta, such as seeing and hearing. Plane of existence: the place where one is born. -------- > A: Also as I remember, some kamavacara cittas can have some jhanic > factors like (piti, sukha, ekaggata, vitakka, vicara). So the > difference isn't just in presence of those 5 factors in rupavacara > citta. -------- N: See in my 'Conditions' jhaana-condition, here jhaana is used in a wider sense: The term jh?na in jh?na-condition is used in a wider sense than jh?na developed in samatha by means of the jh?na-factors that are the sobhana cetasikas mentioned above. The jh?na-factors that are jh?na- condition for the citta they accompany are not only the sobhana cetasikas developed in samatha; they arise with cittas which are kusala, akusala, vip?ka or kiriya. The jh?na-factors in the sense of jh?na-condition assist the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany to be firmly fixed on the object that is experienced. Without the assistance of the jh?na-factors good or evil deeds cannot be performed. The ?Dhammasangani? mentions in the ?Summary? jh?na-factors arising not only with the mah?-kusala cittas which are accompanied by pa???, but also those arising with the mah?-kusala cittas which are unaccompanied by pa???, ??na-vippayutta, as well as those arising with each of the akusala cittas . We read in the ?Patth?na? (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, ? 431) that akusala jh?na-factors are related to their associated aggregates (the other n?ma-kkhandhas ) by jh?na-condition. There are seven jh?na-factors that are jh?na-condition and these include the five types of cetasikas mentioned above, but in this case they are not only sobhana cetasikas arising with sobhana citta. Summarizing them, they are: applied thinking (vitakka) sustained thinking (vic?ra) rapture or interest (p?ti) pleasant feeling (sukha) unpleasant feeling (domanassa) indifferent feeling (upekkh?) concentration (sam?dhi) --------- A:It seems to me that the only major difference is that there is kama (sensuality) that comes with kamavacara citta, but then the Arahants have no kama and they may be in kamavacara loka, right? ------- N: The arahats have kaamaavacara cittas experiencing visible object, sound, etc. But they have no clinging. Yes, arahats lived in the human plane which is kama loka. -------- > > A: quotes:> But the dieing moment -cuticitta -is not kamavacara in > rupaloka. >However it is not the cuticitta that detemines rebith > realm but the >moments in the proceses leading up to cuti-citta. > > robert > > As I understand it, the citta takes the "sign of destiny" and if it > belongs to kamaloka, then I figure that the sign is perception of > kamaloka or kamavacara. ------- N: Do not mix kamaloka, plane of existence, and kaamaavacara, plane of citta. The last javanacittas before the cuticitta are conditioned by the kamma that will produce the next rebirth, not the cuticitta determines the next rebirth, as Rob explained. These cittas may have as object a sign of kamma, or a sign of the next destiny. --------- > > So lets say that arupa brahma is about to pass away and be reborn > in kama loka. Would the sign percieved in arupa loka be kamavacara > citta? --------- N: The last javanacittas can have as object a sign of kamma, or a sign of the next destiny. The case of rebirth after life in the aruupa brahmaloka is very special. See my Visuddhimagga study: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 144, the Tiika: The Tiika explains that there cannot be a pa.tisandhicitta that is ruupaavacara vipaakacitta after the death-consciousness that is aruupaavacaravipaakacitta. We read in T.A. (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 211): < Following decease in the formless realms, there is relinking in the formless realms, though not in a lower formless realm, since beings in a higher formless realm do not accumulate kamma of one lower. > The Tiika to the Visuddhimagga gives an example which illustrates that there cannot be rebirth in a lower aruupa brahmaplane. When the cuticitta of the life that is ending is of the fourth aruupajhaana, thus with a past object, then the pa.tisandhicitta that is aruupaavacara vipaakacitta could not be the result of a lower stage of aruupa jhaana, with a 'not-so-classifiable' object, such as the object experienced by the aruupaavacaracitta of the third stage. We read further on in T.A.: Thus, after having been in an aruupa brahma plane, one may be reborn in a sensuous plane, but then one is reborn with alobha, adosa and pa~n~naa. The Tiika explains that there can be according to circumstances a rebirth-consciousness that is the result of aruupajhaanacitta with a past object or a 'not-so-classifiable' object, and rebirth- consciousness of the sense sphere with a past or present object. ********* Jhaanacitta can only produce its appropriate result in a next life, thus, as rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and cuticitta. When one cultivates jhaana and jhaana does not decline there are conditions for the last javanacittas to be jhaanacittas. In that case there can be rebirth-consciousness that is ruupaavacara vipaakacitta or aruupaavacara vipaakacitta. As we have seen, when aruupajhaana that has been cultivated produces result, it does so accordingly: aruupajhaana of a particular stage cannot produce result of a lower stage of aruupajhaana. --------- Nina. #107889 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes sarahprocter... Dear Vince, Thx for your comments. --- On Thu, 3/6/10, Vince wrote: >but you know the Buddha after his enlightenment he started to teach others and we named it "metta". ... S: I would phrase it a little differently and say that after he became enlightened, he taught others out of his great metta and compassion. ... >According PTS, Panna means "endowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition". ... S: There are different degrees of panna. Panna has to develop from the very slightest degree up to the "highest cognition". ... >Do you understand the Buddha action different of wisdom?. I mean, if it was wisdom arising from a complete understanding of nama and rupa, Can we conceive metta as a different thing of wisdom then panna? ... S: Metta and panna are different cetasikas with different characteristics. There can be metta with or without panna. Even those who have never heard the Buddha's teachings may develop metta. ... > Btw, where do you live in Spain? Do you have any friends you can > discuss the Dhamma with there? Were you able to listen to any of the > K.Sujin discussions? >sorry, I don't understand you here. What do you mean?. ... S: Sorry, I don't understand what you don't understand here:-)) Taking the last question, for example, you mentioned before that you were trying to listen to some of the KS recordings but you found the English difficult. I was wondering if you had tried again? I was also wondering whether you have friends you discuss the Dhamma with in Spanish too. We had a couple of other friends on DSG from Spain before and I was thinking of them too. No need to answer these qus if you'd prefer not to! Metta Sarah ======== #107890 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not posting lately farrellkevin80 Sarah, --- S: Your note just caught my attention. As K.Sujin would say, it's all Dhamma and they are all dhammas, no matter the activities, rest or non-rest. Any moment, any reality, understanding can arise. If we start obsessing about what could have been or what we might do or not do in the future, we're just distracted from the understanding of the present reality.... As an update for others, Jon and I are now camping in an empty flat - well, empty of belongings and books, but still with lots of empty book-cases, cabinets and so on... K: Hey Sarah. Yep, every moment is just a moment. It doesn't matter if we are in a church, monastery, or washing our laundry. Realization can happen at any moment. There is no need to do something special. I do find, however, that discussing dhamma, reading about it, or thinking about it can help my understanding grow, conditions allowing. Hey, where are you and Jon moving too?? Have a nice day,. Kevin #107891 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding dhamma is like learning a new language farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, ------- N: I like it very much when you express some thoughts on what you heard on the recording. But do not force yourself in writing. I also take pauses, and this is because of circumstances, having to finish proofreading or another project, or an outing or so. K: Hi Nina. Yes. I love listening to talk recoreded from the Foundation since I can't attend now that I am in my country. As time allows I like listening to them. Also, right now I have attachment and aversion and I miss my friends! All the best, Kevin #107892 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 3, 2010 9:31 pm Subject: Impermanence cannot be Stopped! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Impermanence cannot be Stopped! Let us face the dry facts! Everything is impermanent! We can all understand impermanence superficially. But deep down in our subconscious mind a sense of permanence is lurking. So we keep patching up our broken teeth, wrinkled dry skin, brittle nails, grey hair, hunched backs, weak eyes, impaired hearing, becoming sick, breaking bones & many other things caused by the inevitable impermanence of this fragile body. Similarly do our moods, our feelings, our thoughts, our perceptions, and our memories all go through many changes in every moment. We take medicines, see mental health specialists, & do many other things, including meditation, to correct our restless flickering minds! While we are doing this, impermanence is still going on crushing everything both inside our body and mind and also outside in all the world relentlessly... While all the organs, all the cells, nervous system, quality of blood, capacity of oxygen content in the lungs and the bone structure are going through this very rapid and unmistakable change, no matter how much we patch up on the surface and beneath the skin, impermanence is working its due course quite persistently underground & inside the body and mind. Nothing on this earth, no science, no technology, can ever delay or stop this proceeding of change! Impermanence keeps burning everything up unstoppable and systematically! Seeing impermanence (anicca) is the key that opens mind to see suffering, and non-self! The moment we understand this very clearly, our mind opens to the fact that things change without leaving a trace behind to follow the path that impermanence has taken. This is called voidness or signlessness... This awareness evaporates the desire for anything that is impermanent! It also evaporates all aversion growing from our disappointed expectations. Then naturally, this clean mind becomes fully aware of not having any agent, immovable mover, or controller, which sometimes is called "Self, I, Me, Ego" or even "Soul" by some people. This element of Dhamma, this basic intrinsic nature of all, this law of Dhamma is known in Buddhism as emptiness of self! The Blessed Buddha said: Sabbe Dhamma Anatta = All States are Selfless! Seeing impermanence with wisdom is the key to detachment, calming, stilling, ceasing, and releasing mental relinquishment. Joyous Freedom is the result! In the Maha-su??ata Sutta (MN 122 ) The Blessed Buddha points out that suffering arises from clinging and attaching to all impermanent things: "I do not see even a single kind of form from the change and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who lusts for it and takes delight in it!" The same is true of all transient feeling, perception, mental construction=intention & sorts of consciousness! If we tenaciously cling to any of them, then we suffer, when they decay! This passage clearly states, that suffering arises from the attachment to form, not because the form is impermanent, but because we are attached to impermanent form. When we attain full enlightenment, we do not suffer! This happens not because we make any impermanent things now everlasting! This happens only because we release our clinging to all impermanent things. Impermanent phenomena continue to be impermanent, whether we ever gain enlightenment or not. As the blessed Buddha also has explained exactly: "Bhikkhus, whether Tathagatas appear or do not appear, there is always this constantly established element of Dhamma, this fixed law of Dhamma: All that is conditioned and constructed is impermanent. To this aTathagata fully awakens and fully understands. So awakened and thus understanding, he announces, points it out, declares, establishes, expounds, and explains it, classifies and clarifies it: All that is conditioned is actually impermanent... Bhikkhus, whetherTathagatas appear or do not appear, there is always this precedent condition and absolute of Dhamma, this anchored law of Dhamma: All that is conditioned and constructed is unsatisfactory, & thus suffering! To this aTathagata fully awakens and fully understands. So awakened and thus understanding, he announces, points out, declares, establishes, explains, and clarifies it: All that is conditioned and constructed is indeed Suffering! Bhikkhus, whether Tathagatas appear or do not appear, there is always this situation present, a subtle truth of Dhamma, this safe doctrine of Dhamma: All states are without a self! To this fact anyTathagata fully awakens and fully understands. So awakened and understanding, he announces, points out, declares, establishes, explains, and clarifies it: All states are without self!" Anguttara Nikaya I 285 By seeing the impermanence, suffering & selflessness thus in all conditioned things in this and any other world, one naturally becomes disenchanted with everything constructed. Disenchantment leads to disillusion and dispassion towards everything. Within a dispassionate mind craving for everything will gradually fade away (vir aga). With this insight one lets go of all attachment. Being dispassionate, one thereby liberates oneself from all this evil misery... Being liberated, one knows that one is liberated, has ended rebirth, has lived the Noble life, has done what should be done, and that there is nothing more to be done! This means that attaining full freedom from all suffering indeed begins with this very perfect and acute awareness of impermanence ...! Source: Bhante Henepola Gunaratana : From Impermanence to Liberation. Buddhist Publication Society http://www.bps.lk/ Newsletter #63: 2010-1. <...> The Fact of Impermanence = Anicca... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107893 From: "antony272b2" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 4:47 am Subject: Help pls finding Sutta on World Creation Views antony272b2 Hi, Just dropping by for help finding a sutta where the Buddha rejects four speculative views:. The world is created by oneself. The world is created by another. The world is both created by oneself and created by another. The world is neither created by oneself nor created by another. Thanks / Antony. #107894 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 8:09 am Subject: Re: Help pls finding Sutta on World Creation Views szmicio Hi Antony > Just dropping by for help finding a sutta where the Buddha rejects four speculative views:. L: Maybe you mean Aga~n~na Sutta. http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/AggannaSutta.pdf best wishes Lukas #107895 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 7:24 am Subject: Some facts about Kiribathgoda Nanananda Thero:: Read with an open mind gemunu.rohana http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzRxucFeD0&NR=1 This is so pathetic, This is never Buddhism, There is 84000 Dhamma skanda (Equal to 84000 another Lord Buddhas as preached in Mahaparinirwaana suthra Listen: http://rapidshare.com/files/395073183/080.Mahaa_Parinirwaana_Suthra.mp3preached by Gem Lord Buddha a monk has no time to preach anything for personal gains (fame, sympathy) like these if he had at least learnt enough of it. It is also a crime to waste time of innocent people with this kind of adharma when they deserve to listen something preached by Gem Lord Buddha. I did not know what this Mahamewna was when I had to pay Rs 300/= for a Thera Gatha Audio CD done by this thero. Luckily for me I already listened to many of the deep Dharma Deshana by truely venerating theros who did not ran after money, personal fame in return of what they preached. Above all, those theros are Thripitakadhari. The ACD I bought was a complete waste of time due to the style it is preached. There are unacceptably huge delays between two words preached due to extra slow style the preaching were done. unfortunately I could not make up my mind to listen even a single gatha preached in it. I am a donor of so many MP3 CDs of Dharma deshana for absolutely free. As far as I understood by digging into Dharma, selling Dharma is as bad crime as selling Gem Lord Buddha the most venerating. It is a crime that can never be undone. Just because someone is wearing a robe, he does not have license to do so. It is a far more worst crime than committing it by an average person. ) Following are what I know about this thero 1. Abhidharma pitaka is not at all within the knowledge of this thero. His publications contain comments which are against Abhidharma teachings. (Refer "kawda oyaalata boru kiwwe" E Book, He says for a new prathisandi there should be a "Gandabba" arrived, in a round about way). For clearing all your doubts on this subject you may download and listen to: http://rapidshare.com/files/382922418/030.Antharabhava_Vada_Visanduma.mp3 2. Die hard fans of this thero advice not to learn Abhidharma to fellow fans. Please note that Expecting Nirvana only by knowing Suthra is just like expecting healing for a late diagnosed Cancer through goda wedakam. Suthra were preached by Lord Buddha for specific individuals by looking at their entire past Sansara. they are not going to help average people with extra weak "Paramitha" now adays. However knowing them is very very valuable as starting points and building up Shradda without wich marga pala is impossible. 3. All the Suthra he knows are for sale in extra high prices among Buddhist publications. I consider this as a crime according to Dharma I understood. You may decide as you wish. 4. In the given video he tells about seeing his previous life (This is called "Pubbe niwanusmruthi" wisdom ), In his other pinkam, as I heard from a fan, he said that his mother is a divyaputhra named so and so and done some pinanumodan tasks. If these are true, only a person with "Divya esa" wisdom can say about this mother thing precisely, even if a a monk poseses it, "Vinaya" by Gem Lord Buddha prohibit him to reveal it to anyone below "Upasampada" level). By going against unbreakable rules of Gem lord Buddha, this monk has fallen into one out of 5 "anthara" called "Anna Viyathikramana" which will block him from even reaching "Sowan" unless he become "Samanera" again. Will the followers have any chance for a marga pala? Think it yourself. 5. Also this thro made a comment about a thero I personally know saying "Eya Vinaya Prashnayak karagena". This shows Kiribathgoda theros evaluation on “Vinaya” 6. In above video, He also says his “Piriniveema” in this life, only Arhaths become “Pirinivan”. By hinting average people he is Arhath or near there is also breach of Vinaya rules which result in above vipaaka in point 4. A thero is only allowed to reveal his marga pala to Upasthayaka thero just before his death only according to most supreme “Vinaya” by Gem Lord Buddha. 6. "Sanga rathnaya" means entire monk community, not only a single monk and his approvers. The monk who was given "Mahamewna" by this thero had published a series of books, which contain nothing but weeping , crying and begging to accept this thero and "Mahamewna" as the total refuge. He further advices not to go through books by other publications. (refer "mahamewnawata hithaisee kenek wanna" E book). Another huge crime that I do not know even there is a remedy. No body has to beg for acceptance, Being Thripitakadari is the only requirement to be accepted by both humans and gods naturally. My biggest fear is that whether this is the beginning of fancy Buddhism like "Mahayana" through "Mahamewna". Blocking not only the Nirwana for this thero himself and his approver monks, but also huge number of innocent people around the country. May the true triple Gem save Sasana! If you want to follow any Thero, Please check if the thero is Thripitakadari, Late venerating Rerukane Maha Thero was one, Soma Thero was another (and Soma thero advised all the monks to be Thripitakadari to be successful), Below site represent more theros who are truly venerating Gems for Sasana. May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! Visit http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/ for freely downloadable Dharma content. ________________________________ From: Dhammika Weerasinghe To: dhammika4@... Sent: Thu, June 3, 2010 11:12:15 PM Subject: Fwd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzRxucFeD0&NR=1 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: chamila wijesinghe Date: Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:12 PM Subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzRxucFeD0&NR=1 To: Dhammika wht do u think about this....... #107896 From: "antony272b2" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 9:14 am Subject: Re: Help pls finding Sutta on World Creation Self Views (not in DN1?) antony272b2 I don't think that DN1 the Brahmajala Sutta has this teaching. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Hi, > > Just dropping by for help finding a sutta where the Buddha rejects four speculative views:. > > The world is created by oneself. > The world is created by another. > The world is both created by oneself and created by another. > The world is neither created by oneself nor created by another. > > Thanks / Antony. > #107897 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 12:33 pm Subject: Re: Fw: Awakening Within this very life itself! jonoabb Hi Alex (107843) > > J: A person who has heard and understood the teachings about >satipatthana would have a reasonable idea of the level of >development of awareness/insight gained to date. > > Not necessarily. Self deception (even unintentional) is common. > =============== J: Of course, self-deception is always possible (usually by over-estimating the level of developed panna). But at least a person who has heard and understood the teachings about satipatthana is capable of having a reasonable idea of the level of developed awareness/insight (unlike the person who has not heard and understood correctly the teachings, who has no chance of knowing that). > =============== Ven. Sariputta himself didn't know about existence of preliminary stages prior to Arhatship. > =============== J: Are you referring to the period *before* or *after* Ven. Sariputta first heard the teachings? If before, there's no contradiction between us; if after, please give the reference so I can see the passage. > =============== > So, are you saying that devadatta had really a lot of panna? Perhaps more than us? > =============== J: Quite possibly so. See the description of his life at: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/d/devadatta.htm (from DPPN) > =============== But he is the one who committed heinous crimes (would you try to kill the Buddha or incite someone to kill a father?) According to Jatakas, he often has been that way! Where are the Jatakas of Devadatta being a a very wholesome person collecting paramis for pacekka Buddha stage?!!! > =============== J: Only selected life stories are included in the Jatakas, and in the case of Devadatta these focus on his enmity towards the Buddha. Jon #107898 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 12:37 pm Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! jonoabb Hi Alex (107844) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Right. And it is also possible that more people have this capability than they think. > =============== J: Not sure what your point is here. The normal tendency is to overestimate, not underestimate, one's ability. > =============== > I do not fully agree here. What is the point in accumulations if they cannot stop very bad qualities such as killing. > =============== J: Just to clarify, your comment relates to the person who has developed insight in a previous life but has not heard the teachings in the present life, is that right? Accumulated kilesa are only eradicated at the various path stages. Until then, they have the potential to manifest again regardless of the level of developed insight of less that path-consciousness level. > =============== > How could Angulimala accumulate so much good qualities and yet be a mass murderer? What is the point in accumulations then, if they can't stop such things and in some cases seem to be no better than not having much of them? > =============== J: You ask what is the point in developing awareness/insight if it does not result in the immediate "stopping" of akusala tendencies. The point is that only developed insight can lead (eventually) to the eradication such tendencies. Other forms of kusala, samatha/jhana in particular, support the temporary suppression of kilesas, but this suppression cannot be maintained from life to life or even, often, within a single lifetime. Jon #107899 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 12:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard (107869) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > Jon, when I said that mindfulness guards against being swept away by > various things, it could have just as well been stated positively as > "mindfulness guards staying present with whatever arises". You are misinterpreting > me. Mindfulness guards against getting caught by the hindrances, enabling > staying alertly present with whatever arises. > =============== J: Mindfulness, if it arises, takes a presently arising dhamma as its object. That dhamma may be a nama but it may also be a rupa such as visible object, audible object or hardness or softness. If it's a nama, it may be a kusala nama or an akusala one. To my understanding, mindfulness is not fussy about whether (speaking conventionally now) the prevailing mental state is kusala or akusala. While mindfulness is taking a particular object (say, visible object), there may be many, many moments of attachment or aversion arising. Mindfulness cannot 'monitor' all that's going on; there's just too much happening. > =============== > J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds in > the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of certain > modern-day 'commentators'. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > I believe you are mistaken in this, Jon. There are loads of suttas in > which sila is urged to calm the mind, thereby supporting entry to jhanas, > and jhanas are urged for calming the mind. There is also at least one sutta > that describes how a calm mind is like a placid pool of water in which a > variety of phenomena are easily visible due to it's clarity. Conversely, in > some suttas the lack of clarity in an uncalm mind is likened to an agitated > pool of water that consequently cannot be seen into. > =============== J: If you're suggesting that there cannot be mindfulness when (speaking conventionally) the prevailing mind-state is akusala, I don't think that's what the texts are saying. In fact, I think it's clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that mindfulness can arise during mundane daily activities (and these would be mostly with subtle akusala rather than kusala consciousness) or at any time when kilesas are present. Jon #107900 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 12:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard (107870) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > I might also point to the Upanisa Sutta. It includes the following, > where "-->" indicates support: > > tranquillity --> > happiness --> > concentration --> > knowledge & vision of things as the are --> > disenchantment --> > dispassion --> > emancipation --> > destruction of cankers > =============== J: I don't think the Upanissa Suttta supports the idea of a 'basic layer of calm' that is to be maintained during one's daily activities. Jon #107901 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 12:52 pm Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107872) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > J: This distinction -- between the 'training of sati' and 'sati in daily life' -- is not a distinction I'm familiar with. Is there a textual basis for it? What does it mean exactly? > > D:sati patthana and sati .... > =============== J: I think satipatthana is also a daily-life thing. See for example: "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu: - in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; - in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; - in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; - in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; - in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; - in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; - in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. These are all ordinary, everyday activities. Jon #107902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding dhamma is like learning a new language nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 4-jun-2010, om 5:38 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > Yes. I love listening to talk recoreded from the Foundation since I > can't attend now that I am in my country. As time allows I like > listening to them. Also, right now I have attachment and aversion > and I miss my friends! ------- N: Understandable. I like to think of my friends in Thailand. Last time in Bgk we went to a session in the Military Hospital for the makapuchaa day. We arrived and there they were waiting for us at the entrance, making us feel so welcome. They have a special way making you feel that your trip is very worth while. Khun Weera is sending us a book by his wife who passed away. She kept a diary durinbg her last days with lots of Dhamma. It is in Thai, and when it arrives I will post parts of it on dsg. She always had excellent dhamma questions. Sarah and Jon will like it. You miss your friends, but here on dsg you can make new Dhamma friends. It is wonderful that this is possible nowadays by internet. I lived for a long time in the non-computer time, kept on writing, writing, but hardly ever a reaction. But that was O.K. too, we do not write for the nice responses. I keep on hearing from Kh Sujin that we should not just know the names of realities, but the characteristics when they actually appear. So much discussion here on volition and effort. These are only names when their characteristics are not known at the present moment. The same for metta. This is a test, when we miss people we think of ourselves and there is no mettaa. I failed a test, a terrible test. I was reading to Lodewijk from Survey, Ch on concepts. A picture of grapes and real grapes: through eyes only colour appears. Through touch tangible object. No difference. Then I thought of seeing Lodewijk and looking at a photograph of Lodewijk: through eyes only colour, through touch only tangible object. No difference, but I failed the test! Howard will protest, I know. Nice talking to you, Nina. #107903 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/4/2010 8:44:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107869) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > Jon, when I said that mindfulness guards against being swept away by > various things, it could have just as well been stated positively as > "mindfulness guards staying present with whatever arises". You are misinterpreting > me. Mindfulness guards against getting caught by the hindrances, enabling > staying alertly present with whatever arises. > =============== J: Mindfulness, if it arises, takes a presently arising dhamma as its object. That dhamma may be a nama but it may also be a rupa such as visible object, audible object or hardness or softness. If it's a nama, it may be a kusala nama or an akusala one. To my understanding, mindfulness is not fussy about whether (speaking conventionally now) the prevailing mental state is kusala or akusala. ------------------------------------------------ I've read Nina to say the exact opposite on DSG. And the Buddha taught the following: "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in _right view_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ditthi/index.ht ml) : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in _right resolve_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sankappo/index.htm\ l) : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in _right speech_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html) : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in _right action_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-kammanto/index.htm\ l) : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in _right livelihood_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ajivo/index.html) : This is one's right mindfulness..." — _MN 117_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html) ----------------------------------------------- While mindfulness is taking a particular object (say, visible object), there may be many, many moments of attachment or aversion arising. Mindfulness cannot 'monitor' all that's going on; there's just too much happening. ----------------------------------------------------- See the foregoing quote from the Buddha, please. Also there is the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ “And what is the faculty of sati? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. (And here begins the satipatthana formula:) He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.” — _SN 48.10_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ Remaining focused on the body, feelings, etc, is exactly staying present, Jon. It is exactly avoiding getting distracted by excitement, sloth & torpor or getting caught in thought. ________________________________ > =============== > J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds in > the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of certain > modern-day 'commentators'. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > I believe you are mistaken in this, Jon. There are loads of suttas in > which sila is urged to calm the mind, thereby supporting entry to jhanas, > and jhanas are urged for calming the mind. There is also at least one sutta > that describes how a calm mind is like a placid pool of water in which a > variety of phenomena are easily visible due to it's clarity. Conversely, in > some suttas the lack of clarity in an uncalm mind is likened to an agitated > pool of water that consequently cannot be seen into. > =============== J: If you're suggesting that there cannot be mindfulness when (speaking conventionally) the prevailing mind-state is akusala, I don't think that's what the texts are saying. In fact, I think it's clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that mindfulness can arise during mundane daily activities (and these would be mostly with subtle akusala rather than kusala consciousness) or at any time when kilesas are present. ---------------------------------------------------------- Please explain to me how mindfulness can be in effect while kilesas are present. My point is that in a very turbulent mind, mindfulness cannot function. The Buddha taught that. In SN 46.53 the Buddha taught the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Monks, when the mind is agitated,_[3]_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.053.wlsh.html#fn-3) that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of investigation-of-states, of energy, of rapture. Why? An agitated mind is hard to calm through these factors. "Suppose a man wants to put a big fire out. If he heaps dry cow-dung and dry sticks on it, blow on it with his mouth, and does not sprinkle it with dust, can he put that fire out?" "No indeed, Lord." "... an agitated mind is not easy to calm through these factors. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ When there is no "layer of calm," the mind is agitated, and an agitated mind, as the foregoing states, is not conducive to the investigation of what arises. If, of course, there is a momentary break in turbulence, mindfulness could jump in (conditioned by prior wholesome states), but that is spotty at best. For mindfulness to come into play much of the time, there must be a relative degree of ongoing (i.e., frequently arising, if not continuous) calm in place and lessened turbulence. Imagine, for example, a person who is furious about something. How mindful would s/he be then? In fact, only through mindfulness can there be engaging in right effort and heading off of unwholesome states. Right effort depends on mindfulness, and adequate mindfulness depends on calm. In AN, the Buddha taught the following: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. ------------------------------------------------------------- Jon ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107904 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 4:40 pm Subject: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, > Hi Alex > > (107844) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > Right. And it is also possible that more people have this >capability than they think. > > =============== > > J: Not sure what your point is here. The normal tendency is to >overestimate, not underestimate, one's ability. > My point is that some people ignore the sutta teachings that awakening can come very quickly to diligent those who heard the teaching. > > =============== > > I do not fully agree here. What is the point in accumulations if >they cannot stop very bad qualities such as killing. > > =============== > > J: Just to clarify, your comment relates to the person who has >developed insight in a previous life but has not heard the teachings >in the present life, is that right? Can one who is going to become Arahant, accumulate insight without having heard the teaching? >J: Are you referring to the period *before* or *after* Ven. >Sariputta first heard the teachings? If before, there's no >contradiction between us; if after, please give the reference so I >can see the passage. After he became an Arahat, he has learned about prior stages. In fact the teaching about stream enterers and anagamis was first ever done in AN 9.12 Sa-upadisesasuttam ? With substratum remaining Not only that, the teaching on the sekha stages should not be taught to worldlings (and till arhatship stage???) "S?riputta, these nine persons die with substratum, released, from hell, from animal birth, from the sphere of ghosts and released from loss and hellish births. S?riputta, this discourse should not be taught to bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay male disciples and female disciples until such time. What is the reason? May they be not negligent hearing this discourse. Yet I teach it to those who are wise." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanip\ ata/002-sihanadavaggo-e.html With metta, Alex #107905 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Talks by Venerable Say?daw U S?l?nanda ptaus1 Hi Chris and all, Thanks for the reminder Chris. Chew has put links to this and other of his blogs (yamaka, patthana and other) in the Links section here. Thanks Chew. I was also wondering if the Venerable Silananda of the mentioned Visuddhimagga talks is the same as Silananda who posts here occasionally? Best wishes pt > Not sure if this has already been posted here, but here is a link to Visuddhimagga Talks by Venerable Say?daw U S?l?nanda > http://thepathofpurification.blogspot.com/ #107906 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 4:47 pm Subject: Re: Will, codetermination ptaus1 Dear Sarah and Alex, Thanks for coming back to this. Here are some of my thoughts on the topic. In conventional terms, I'd say choice is being made all the time, regardless of whether it can be described as a "decision" to read, to sit, to scratch, to abstain, etc. The question is whether this decision is ultimately riding on the back of kusala or akusala cittas so to speak. I guess only panna can know that. So that's the problem imo - when panna is not strong enough, or just absent for that matter, there's no telling whether what's conventionally described as "a choice to read suttas" is actually riding on the back of kusala or akusala cittas. I.e. whether cetana is actually kusala or akusala, is it accompanied by subtle lobha or by kusala determination, by right or wrong effort, etc. So, I guess we are all after figuring out what's practically the difference between a moment with sati, and a moment without it. Often what I practically gauge as a characteristic of sati for example - it later turns out to be some sort of lobha. For a time, conventional descriptions of sati and panna as "natural and spontaneous" as opposed to "deliberate and intentional" lobha, were helpful. But now it's also evident that a lot of this spontaneous stuff is also usually some sort of lobha. So, it's tricky figuring out practically what's a moment with sati and what's not, what's right effort and what's wrong, etc. Sometimes I'm 100% sure it was sati and panna definitely with right effort, but later, I read something and consider the past experience and conclude it was much closer to subtle greed for some concept of right effort... It's hard without a definite experiential reference point. Of course reading helps, as well as hearing what others have to say about it, but only panna can ultimately tell, and it seems to develop pretty much like groping in the dark. Best wishes pt > Sarah: Doesn't it just come down to the delusion Kevin was referring to (in the message I just replied to) and in particular the atta-view? In other words, what is taken for choice are just different moments of thinking about various concepts. All such thinking is of course conditioned, as you've pointed out and there's no Self or entity of any kind who can make choices or have realities arise at will. Cetana arises with every single citta, as you both know. The cetana which is kamma accumulates by natural decisive support condition in particular. > Alex: But is there cetana? What is it? > Is there adhimokkho? What is it? > Is there adhitthana? What is it? > > > > Or course none of the decision making processes is made or controlled by the Self (there isn't The Self). However, decision, choosing, etc does happen - right? > > > > With metta, > > Alex > #107907 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 6:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-jun-2010, om 17:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: Jon: To my understanding, mindfulness is not fussy about whether (speaking conventionally now) the prevailing mental state is kusala or akusala. > I've read Nina to say the exact opposite on DSG. And the Buddha taught > the following: > > "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in _right > view_ ------ N: Hey, you use my name :-)) When akusala arises, it can be object of mindfulness, see the application of mindfulness of citta and of dhamma. Why? We take akusala for my akusala and that is wrong. We can learn to see it as a conditioned element, not mine or me. This is leading to the abandoning of wrong view. Sati is not fussy, no, whatever appears has already arisen because of conditions. ------ Nina. #107908 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/4/2010 2:41:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 4-jun-2010, om 17:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: Jon: To my understanding, mindfulness is not fussy about whether (speaking conventionally now) the prevailing mental state is kusala or akusala. > I've read Nina to say the exact opposite on DSG. And the Buddha taught > the following: > > "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in _right > view_ ------ N: Hey, you use my name :-)) ------------------------------------------------ LOLOL! (But not in vain! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- When akusala arises, it can be object of mindfulness, see the application of mindfulness of citta and of dhamma. Why? We take akusala for my akusala and that is wrong. We can learn to see it as a conditioned element, not mine or me. This is leading to the abandoning of wrong view. Sati is not fussy, no, whatever appears has already arisen because of conditions. ------ Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard ================================= Love, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107909 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 10:24 pm Subject: Re: Awakening Within this very life itself! christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > J: Yes, very gradual (cira kala bhavana). No need to get excited >about the possibility of attainments in this lifetime ;-)) > > I strongly disagree with the above. What you've said has absolutely no bearings on the Dhamma, where a person could go from a mass murderer to a saint within one life. Don't underestimate the power of the Dhamma! > > The famous satipatthana sutta states that one can become awakened in 7 days, and that by the way of an average person capable of being trained. A very keen person, under Buddha's personal guidance could do it in a day (12 hours) MN 85 > Hello Alex, My teachers have always said that it is necessary to understand the way in which the Buddha was teaching to different individuals, the culture at that time, and the circumstances in which the teaching was given. . In this section, basically, the Buddha isn't saying it only takes someone a certain number of days, weeks or years of practice and they will attain ~ he is actually teaching that "Time doesn't come into it." When a person has the accumulations to attain ~ it happens. That's it! If a person doesn't have the accumulations, then no amount of grinding away will achieve anything. d. Maggasacca Pabba (Section on the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of Dukkha) To summarize, he is firmly mindful of the fact that only dhammas exist (not a soul, a self or I). That mindfulness is just for gaining insight (vipassana) and mindfulness progressively. Being detached from craving and wrong views he dwells without clinging to anything in the world. Thus, bhikkhus, in this way a bhikkhu dwells perceiving again and again the Four Noble Truths as just the Four Noble Truths. Indeed, bhikkhus, whosoever practises these four satipatthanas in this manner for seven years, one of two results is to be expected in him: Arahatship in this very existence, or if there yet be any trace of clinging, the state of an Anagami.note115 Let alone seven years, bhikkhus, whosoever practises these four satipatthanas in this manner for six years, five years, four years, three years, two years, or one year. Let alone one year, bhikkhus, whosoever practises these four satipatthanas in this manner for seven months, one of two results is to be expected in him: Arahatship in this very existence, or if there yet be any trace of clinging, the state of an Anagami. Let alone seven months, bhikkhus, whosoever practises these four satipatthanas in this manner for six months, five months, four months, three months, two months, one month, or half a month. Let alone half a month, bhikkhus, whosoever practises these four satipatthanas in this manner for seven days, one of two results is to be expected in him: Arahatship in this very existence or if there yet be any trace of clinging, the state of an Anagami. This is what I meant when I said: "Bhikkhus, this is the one and the only way for the purification (of the minds) of beings, for overcoming sorrow and lamentation, for the cessation of physical and mental pain, for attainment of the Noble Paths, and for the realization of Nibbana. That only way is the four satipatthanas". This is what the Bhagava said. Delighted, the bhikkhus rejoice at the Bhagava's words. http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/mahasati/mahasati18.htm with metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --- #107910 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 4, 2010 11:09 pm Subject: daily activities in satipatthana truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, > J: I think satipatthana is also a daily-life thing. See for example: > > "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu: > - in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > - in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > - in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > - in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > - in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > - in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > - in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. > > These are all ordinary, everyday activities. Great, lets discuss them. And how exactly these activities are done with mindfulness and clear comprehension? Please be precise and specific. Even animals know when they are walking, sitting, standing or lying. With metta, Alex #107911 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 12:11 am Subject: Suffering in this World is Inevitable! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Suffering in this World is Inevitable! The entire world is in flames, all the entire world is blazing up in smoke! The entire world is burning, the entire world is decaying and vanishing... But that which does not vanish or burn, which is experienced by the Nobles, where Death has no entry, in that stilled silence mind finds sweet delight. Samyutta Nikaya 1.168 Without sign, unknown, uncertain, is the life here of mortals, demanding, short, tied up with pain and misery. For there's no way by which those who are born will not die. All Beings will surely die even if they become very old! Like ripe fruits, whose downfall, whose danger always is inevitable falling, so for mortals, once born, the constant danger is forever hereafter death! As a potter's clay vessels, large & small, fired & unfired, all end up broken, so too life heads to death. Young & old, wise & foolish, rich & poor: Everyone come under the sway of death, all have death as their assured certain end. Note the hands are taken to the Head & Mind that suffers! For those overcome by death, gone to the other world, father cannot protect son, nor relatives any family. See: Even while relatives are looking & wailing heavily, mortals are one by one led away like dumb cows to the slaughter... In this way is the world afflicted with aging & death! Knowing this indeed inescapable and unavoidable nature of the world, the enlightened don't ever grieve! You don't know from where the dying came or where he is going... Seeing neither end, you lament uselessly in blind vain.. Helping nobody at all! If, by lamenting, confused, harming yourself, any good use could be gained the prudent would do it as well. But not by weeping & grief do you gain peace of mind. Pain just arises all the more. Your body is hurt. You grow thin, pale, harming yourself by yourself. Not in that folly way, are the dead protected. Lamentations are all in pointless vain. Not abandoning grief, a person suffers all the more pain. Bewailing one whose time is done, you fall under the sway of grief yourself. Look at others, going along, people arriving in line with their past actions: Falling under the sway of death, beings simply shivers here, for a short unstable waste of a life... For however they imagine it to be, it always becomes quite other than that! That's a fate of their blinded estrangement. See this evil way of the world... Even if a person lives a century, or even more, he will be separated from his community, friends & relatives. He leaves his life alone & naked right there! So, having heard the Arahat, who have subdued all lamentation, seeing that the dead is one whose time is done, understanding: "I can't fetch him back." Just as one would extinguish a burning shelter with water, even so does the Enlightened One, intelligent, clever and wise, blow away any arisen sorrow, like a strong wind, a bit of cotton fluff! Seeking your own happiness, you should pull out your own injuring arrow: All your own lamentation, longing, hoping, hungering producing only sorrow! With arrow pulled out, independent, attaining peace of awareness, all grief is transcended, griefless you are unbound, free, safe, at ease in peace... Source: Salla Sutta: The Arrow. Snp 3.8, PTS: Sn 574-593 Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Edited Extract) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.08.than.html Kindly forwarded by our Friend Ivan Dhammavaro Wijaya: <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107912 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 1:55 am Subject: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga IV-1 chewsadhu 4. Pathavi-kasin.aniddeso [PTS 118] ?? ????"? CHAPTER IV - THE EARTH KASINA 51. Ida-ni yam. vuttam. ‘‘sama-dhibha-vana-ya ananuru-pam. viha-ram. paha-ya anuru-pe viha-re viharantena-’’ti ettha yassa ta-va-cariyena saddhim. ekaviha-re vasato pha-su hoti, tena tattheva kammat.t.ha-nam. parisodhentena vasitabbam.. (?")??????:??????,????????,?\ ?????????,??????????????????\ ??,????????,??"????????; ?`(IV,1): [118] Now it was said earlier: After that he should avoid a monastery unfavourable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable (Ch. III, §28). In the first place one who finds it convenient to live with the teacher in the same monastery can live there while he is making certain of the meditation subject. Sace tattha pha-su na hoti, yo añño ga-vute va- ad.d.hayojane va- yojanamattepi va- sappa-yo viha-ro hoti, tattha vasitabbam.. ??????,??"?????????"?????"??????\ ????????? ?`: If it is inconvenient there, he can live in another monastery ?"?" a suitable one ?"?" a quarter or a half or even a whole league distant. Saya-daw U Si-la-nanda: 'a whole league' is about 8 miles. Han: Mahasi Saya-daw used the Pa-l.i words, ga-vuta and yojana, without giving the measure in miles. According to the Dictionary, ga-vuta: [nt.] a league; a measure little less than two miles. yojana: [nt.] a measure of length, which is about, 7 miles. Evañhi sati kammat.t.ha-nassa kismiñcideva t.ha-ne sandehe va- satisammose va- ja-te ka-lasseva viha-re vattam. katva- antara-magge pin.d.a-ya caritva- bhattakiccapariyosa-neyeva a-cariyassa vasanat.t.ha-nam. gantva- tam.divasama-cariyassa santike kammat.t.ha-nam. sodhetva- dutiyadivase a-cariyam. vanditva- nikkhamitva- antara-magge pin.d.a-ya caritva- akilamantoyeva attano vasanat.t.ha-nam. a-gantum. sakkhissati. ????,????????????`?"???`???????\ ??,?????????????????,??"?????\ ??????,????????,???????`?????\ ???????,?????,??????,??"????\ ???,??,???????????????? ?`: In that case, when he finds he is in doubt about, or has forgotten, some passage in the meditation subject, then he should do the duties in the monastery in good time and set out afterwards, going for alms on the way and arriving at the teacher's dwelling place after his meal. He should make certain about the meditation subject that day in the teacher's presence. Next day, after paying homage to the teacher, he should go for alms on his way back and so he can return to his own dwelling place without fatigue. Yo pana yojanappama-n.epi pha-sukat.t.ha-nam. na labhati, tena kammat.t.ha-ne sabbam. gan.t.hit.t.ha-nam. chinditva- suvisuddham. a-vajjanapat.ibaddham. kammat.t.ha-nam. katva- du-rampi gantva- sama-dhibha-vana-ya ananuru-pam. viha-ram. paha-ya anuru-pe viha-re viha-tabbam.. ????"????????????,???????????\ ??????????"????,??????,??????\ ??????,????????????????"?????\ ? ?`: But one who finds no convenient place within even a league should clarify all difficulties about the meditation subject and make quite sure it has been properly attended to. Then he can even go far away and, avoiding a monastery unfavourable to development of concentration, live in one that is favourable. #107913 From: Chew Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 2:06 am Subject: The Path of Purification : Visuddhimagga IV-1 chewsadhu Chew has sent you a link to a blog: Blog: The Path of Purification Post: Visuddhimagga IV-1 Link: http://thepathofpurification.blogspot.com/2010/05/visuddhimagga-iv-1.html #107914 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:21 am Subject: Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Dieter (107874) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: avijja -sankhara ...the ignorant (force of ) will , isn't that (including) the delusion ( identification with ) self ? > =============== J: Are you referring to the fist link of DO, 'avijja paccaya sankhara'? Both avijja and sankhara are dhammas. Avijja is the mental factor (cetasika) that is ignorant of the object of consciousness at that moment. Sankhara here refers to cetana that accompanies patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness). > =============== ... and what means khanda attachment ? > =============== J: Are you referring here to 'upadaana-khandha'? This means khandhas (i.e., dhammas) that are clung to. > =============== > ...and why is conceit only abolished only with the attainment of Arahantship ? > =============== J: If you're asking why conceit isn't abolished earlier, I don't know the answer, but it doesn't strike me as surprising, since conceit is very deeply rooted and can be very subtle. > =============== > I think there is confusion , what may be concluded by pure reason and what has been realized by penetration ( disentchantment, dispassion..) > =============== J: Yes, I'd agree there can easily be confusion between what is reasoned and what is to be realised by penetration. For that reason, it's better to keep to the texts as one's reference point than to attempt to reason things out for oneself relying on one's own subjective experiences. Jon #107915 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:23 am Subject: Re: suppression of hindrances jonoabb Hi Alex (107876) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Guess what was the most typical instance when 5 hindrances are suppressed... > =============== J: The 5 hindrances are absent at any time the consciousness is kusala. Jon #107916 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:25 am Subject: Re: Difference between conventional and unconventional actions jonoabb Hi Alex (107877) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > And how is studying and reading Abhidhamma, suttas, etc, different from "conventional idea of making a deliberate action?" > =============== J: My comment relates to conventional actions/activities that are done with the idea that one is thereby developing awareness/insight or at least enhancing the prospects for awareness/insight to arise there and then. Conventional actions that are done for other reasons are not necessarily done with an idea of self. > =============== > Wasn't there deliberate choice, Jon, to visit this page and read this post? > =============== J: Yes, but not with the idea/for the reason that by doing so there will be more awareness ;-)) > =============== If it is ok, then why isn't meditation (with panna of course!) ok? > =============== J: The path taught by the Buddha was not a path of doing some particular conventional activity. It was a path of understanding the world of dhammas (as opposed to the world of people and things). Jon #107917 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard (107903) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > When there is no "layer of calm," the mind is agitated, and an agitated > mind, as the foregoing states, is not conducive to the investigation of what > arises. > =============== J: We are talking about basic mindfulness, not the enlightenment factors (these latter imply mindfulness that's already highly developed). > =============== If, of course, there is a momentary break in turbulence, > mindfulness could jump in (conditioned by prior wholesome states), but that is spotty > at best. > =============== J: Beginning mindfulness is bound to be spotty and weak. There cannot be ongoing mindfulness of different dhammas from the outset. > =============== For mindfulness to come into play much of the time, there must be > a relative degree of ongoing (i.e., frequently arising, if not continuous) > calm in place and lessened turbulence. Imagine, for example, a person who > is furious about something. How mindful would s/he be then? > =============== J: If you hold the view that there can never be mindfulness when one is furious about something, only when there is calm, then you and I have different ideas about what mindfulness is/means ;-)) > =============== In fact, only > through mindfulness can there be engaging in right effort and heading off of > unwholesome states. Right effort depends on mindfulness, and adequate > mindfulness depends on calm. > =============== J: To my understanding, mindfulness is accompanied by right effort. The person with well-developed mindfulness also has well-developed right effort. Jon #107918 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:31 am Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). jonoabb Hi Alex (107904) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > My point is that some people ignore the sutta teachings that awakening can come very quickly to diligent those who heard the teaching. > =============== J: Some people understand there are no short cuts and that only mindfulness that has been well-developed in previous lives can be maintained for 7 days/weeks as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ;-)) #107919 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:34 am Subject: Re: daily activities in satipatthana jonoabb Hi Alex (107910) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu: > > - in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > - in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > - in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > - in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > - in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > - in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > - in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. > > > > These are all ordinary, everyday activities. > > Great, lets discuss them. > > And how exactly these activities are done with mindfulness and clear comprehension? Please be precise and specific. Even animals know when they are walking, sitting, standing or lying. > =============== J: The sutta passage doesn't say these are 'activities to be done with mindfulness'. It says that while doing such and such there is mindfulness. The mindfulness is mindfulness of *dhammas*, not of *a particular activity*. The sense of the passage is that whatever the situation, the person is a person who practises mindfulness. Consider for example the references to 'walking, standing and sitting', 'sleeping and waking', 'speaking and keeping silence'; these are different ways of saying 'at any time', 'under any circumstances'. Jon #107920 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 8:02 am Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina (and all) - Skip to end, please. In a message dated 6/4/2010 5:58:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/4/2010 2:41:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 4-jun-2010, om 17:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: Jon: To my understanding, mindfulness is not fussy about whether (speaking conventionally now) the prevailing mental state is kusala or akusala. > I've read Nina to say the exact opposite on DSG. And the Buddha taught > the following: > > "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in _right > view_ ------ N: Hey, you use my name :-)) ------------------------------------------------ LOLOL! (But not in vain! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- When akusala arises, it can be object of mindfulness, see the application of mindfulness of citta and of dhamma. Why? We take akusala for my akusala and that is wrong. We can learn to see it as a conditioned element, not mine or me. This is leading to the abandoning of wrong view. Sati is not fussy, no, whatever appears has already arisen because of conditions. ------ Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard ================================= Love, Howard ======================================== Right before sending that post to you, I had sent another post to a close family member. Somehow my closing of "Love, Howard" found it's way onto my post to you too, Nina! (Now while 'metta' certainly does mean "love", and I certainly do care very much about you, Nina, the connotation is different, and I thought it would be prudent for me to explain! ;-) With much metta (I hope that is a good "middle way" ;-), Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107921 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 2:00 pm Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 5-jun-2010, om 14:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Love, > Howard > ======================================== > Right before sending that post to you, I had sent another post to a > close family member. Somehow my closing of "Love, Howard" found > it's way onto > my post to you too, Nina! (Now while 'metta' certainly does mean > "love", > and I certainly do care very much about you, Nina, the connotation is > different, and I thought it would be prudent for me to explain! ;-) ------ N: No special thoughts, I only thought this ending very kind. We can use the word metta or love, it does not matter. Nina. #107922 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati or no sati. was: Will, codetermination nilovg Dear pt, Op 4-jun-2010, om 18:47 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > So, I guess we are all after figuring out what's practically the > difference between a moment with sati, and a moment without it. > Often what I practically gauge as a characteristic of sati for > example - it later turns out to be some sort of lobha. For a time, > conventional descriptions of sati and panna as "natural and > spontaneous" as opposed to "deliberate and intentional" lobha, were > helpful. But now it's also evident that a lot of this spontaneous > stuff is also usually some sort of lobha. -------- N: What you write here is very sincere, and this is the right attitude. It is natural to take subtle lobha for sati. Lodewijk also asks: how can we know when there is sati and when not. Kh Sujin: when it arises you know. Lodewijk finds this difficult, because when it does not arise one does not know. It seems like a vicious circle. Kh Sujin emphasizes right understanding, that is what matters. Instead of asking: when is there sati, it is best to go on listening and considering what one hears and reads, discussing, without wondering too much about the fact whether there is sati or not. It is beneficial to develop more understanding, no matter what level. Like this moment now. You have some remarks, and I find these very useful to discuss. Discussions on this list do help, especially when it is about the present moment. Do continue if you feel like it. Nina. #107923 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 3:36 pm Subject: Re: daily activities in satipatthana truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107910) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > > "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu: > > > - in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > > - in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > > - in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > > - in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > > - in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > > - in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > > > - in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. > > > > > > These are all ordinary, everyday activities. > > > > Great, lets discuss them. > > > > And how exactly these activities are done with mindfulness and clear comprehension? Please be precise and specific. Even animals know when they are walking, sitting, standing or lying. > > =============== > > J: The sutta passage doesn't say these are 'activities to be done >with mindfulness'. It says that while doing such and such there is >mindfulness. You are saying the same thing. Please don't engage in such kind of wordplay. So how does , to quote you, "while doing such and such there is mindfulness." >J:The mindfulness is mindfulness of *dhammas*, not of *a particular >activity*. Is sitting, standing, walking, lying, bending and stretching arms, etc an activity or Dhammas? >J:The sense of the passage is that whatever the situation, the >person >is a person who practises mindfulness. Consider for example >the >references to 'walking, standing and sitting', 'sleeping and >waking', 'speaking and keeping silence'; these are different ways of >saying 'at any time', 'under any circumstances'. So how exactly does a person practices mindfulness? With metta, Alex #107924 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 3:39 pm Subject: Re: suppression of hindrances truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107876) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > Guess what was the most typical instance when 5 hindrances are suppressed... > > =============== > > J: The 5 hindrances are absent at any time the consciousness is >kusala. Are there various degrees of Kusala (strong, weak, etc)? Are there various degrees of akusala (strong, weak, etc)? How does one attain strong enough kusala to make 5 hindrances absent? The Buddha didn't say "dana is enough". No, he taught a lot of samadhi. BTW, dana can be done with a LOT of greed, "*I* am giving you this dana so that *I* may have a future reward". With metta, Alex #107925 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 3:40 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107904) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > My point is that some people ignore the sutta teachings that awakening can come very quickly to diligent those who heard the teaching. > > =============== > > J: Some people understand there are no short cuts and that only mindfulness that has been well-developed in previous lives can be maintained for 7 days/weeks as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ;-)) > But the sutta doesn't say that! Please give me a quote that says that many lifetimes of satipatthana is required. With metta, Alex #107926 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 3:44 pm Subject: Re: Difference between conventional and unconventional actions truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > J: The path taught by the Buddha was not a path of doing some >particular conventional activity. It was a path of understanding >the world of dhammas (as opposed to the world of people and things). And how will one ever develop understanding if one doesn't ever learn? You contradict what you've said with phrases like: > J: Yes, but not with the idea/for the reason that by doing so there >will be more awareness ;-)) How can you learn without doing the learning? > J: My comment relates to conventional actions/activities that are >done with the idea that one is thereby developing awareness/insight >or at least enhancing the prospects for awareness/insight to arise >there and then. So doing the learning, studying, considering doesn't enhance the prospect of more understanding? > Conventional actions that are done for other reasons are not >necessarily done with an idea of self. So one can go to a strip club, drink beer, etc without self view but any kind of meditation always involves self view? With metta, Alex #107927 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 12:27 am Subject: No Phenomenon is a Self, Ego or a Substance! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: No States have a Core, Self or Substance! The Buddha once epitomized a crucial, yet counter-intuitive fact by saying: "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta ", which means "All states are self-&-coreless...!" This entails an absence or voidness of a stable same core in any phenomena: Internally exists there no "self", "soul", "I", "you" "me", "agent" anywhere! Externally exists there no "substance", "matter", or "real world" anywhere! Mentally is there no "controller", "speaker" or "experiencer" inside in mind... Physically is there no "reality" or "rock-solid-matter-stuff" outside in world... Both inner "EGO" & outer "SUBSTANCE" are illusionary ideas! Buddha emphasized that release from the Ego-Substance-concept was Bliss: "Blissful is solitude for one who is content, learned & who see the Dhamma. More blissful is harmlessness towards all living beings without exception. Even more blissful is freedom from any sensual urge & craving whatsoever. Yet, the supreme bliss, is the elimination of this abysmal conceit 'I Exists'" Udana ? Inspiration: II ? 1 <...> The Blessed Buddha once said: "In the seen is merely the process of seeing... In the heard is merely the process of hearing... In the sensed is merely the process of sensing... In the thought is merely the process of thinking... So knowing, you will not be connected 'with that'... So disconnected you will not be absorbed 'into that'... So neither with that, nor into that You Are Not created by that sensation! When there is no 'You' inferred or conjectured by that very experience, then 'You' are neither 'here', 'there', 'both', 'beyond' nor 'in between'...! On realizing the importance of this incident the Blessed One exclaimed: Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor motion find any footing, there no sun, moon nor star ever shines. There is neither any light, yet nor is there any darkness! When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure and all pain ..." Udana ? Inspiration: I - 10. Further comments and explanation here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/No_Substance_'Out_There'.htm The Buddha insisted on a subtle and profound quasi-pseudo-real world: "The world is bound up by and shrouded in delusion. It appears as real and is regarded as if it were fine! The fool bound to his illusive acquisitions, blinded by darkness, assumes it as eternal, but for one who sees & really understands, there is nothing real, stable or same, neither here nor there..." Udana ? Inspiration: VII ? 10 <...> far away both in time and space! Symbolic representation of the Universe is a self-excited system brought into being by self-reference or auto-creation by consciously selecting observers over an immensely long period of time... Such a recursive-reflecting creative concept is similar to the endless series of receding reflections one sees in a pair of mirrors facing each others....? Reference: J.A. Wheeler in Isham et al., eds., Quantum Gravity (Clarendon, Oxford, 1975), pgs. 564-565. (Edited Extract.) "No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon!" said by J.A. Wheeler from his delayed choice experiment ideas, is referenced in: The undivided universe: An ontological interpretation of quantum theory. p. 104 By David Bohm , and Basil J. Hiley. "The path of the electron comes into existence, only when we observe it." John S. Bell "Fundamental to contemporary Quantum Theory is the notion that there is no phenomenon until it is observed! This is known as the 'Observer Effect'. The implications of the 'Observer Effect' are profound because, if true, it means that before anything can manifest in the physical universe it must first be observed! This Observer Effect clearly implies that all the physical Universe is the direct result of consciousness itself!" Alex Paterson. HELP! Please Help Me Out of this Empty Illusion! If you feel slightly weird or dizzy after reading this, you are right on track! Hihihi ;-) Keep on observing, studying, reflecting. Never give up Examination ! It is not "reality" that seems to be evaporating under your feet, but rather the unseen, hidden, habitual and utterly false assumptions you had about it! <...> The Fact of No-Self = Anatta... No Phenomenon is a Self, Ego or a Substance! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107928 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 11:05 am Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? szmicio Dear Sarah, > >If you want to have metta to others, first you have metta to yourself. > ... > S: Here, I think you're very much mistaken. I think this idea causes tremendous grief. What is taken as "metta for oneself" is definitely lobha! Metta always has others' interests, not one's own interests as object. We learn to treat others as we like to be treated. > .... L: For example: we can joke of people who are going throught the street and counting stones or something like that, but when we experienced this also in our lifes and know oh just usuall conditioned dhmma this behaviour is, this can conditioned really true metta for all beings. Then when we understand in our lifes that all is conditioned and out of control, then there can be so much metta. even for the hell beings, demons. > >I get metta when I see people quarreling or do bad things. Then I know I did it before, and no judgment just forgetting all what happend, no judgment. > ... > S: I think that when we have metta for others, we don't have any thought or concern about ourselves at all. > ... L: Yes, but there is a lot of thinking in between. Even there is metta, there can be thinking with dosa about I, me. And again this thinking can be a condition for metta in the next moment. > >The best condition for metta is rememebering all is conditioned, all can happend to us, the same with others, no control. > ... > S: Yes, understanding about conditioned dhammas definitely is a condition for more metta. I think that understanding the value of being kindly disposed, helping when we have an opportunity, thinking of others' welfare, forgetting about ME for a change is also important. When we wish to have more metta, more right speech, then we're back to being self-obsessed without any metta for others. L: Without right understanding this is really hard to tell, whether the moment of giving or helping others now is kusala. I think the moment of dosa is the same dangerous like the moment of lobha, really no difference, but dosa seems to hurt more. Best wishes Lukas #107929 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 11:14 am Subject: Re: daily activities in satipatthana jonoabb Hi Alex (107923) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > So how exactly does a person practices mindfulness? > =============== J: The word "practised" has a particular meaning when it comes to mindfulness/insight. It refers to the actual arising of mindfulness. There is no "practising" of mindfulness in the sense that that word is often used in ordinary speech, that is to say, undertaking an activity that is a preparation for or rehearsal of the real thing. Mindfulness is, in ultimate terms, a kusala mental factor, a conditioned, impersonal dhamma. It arises by conditions over which there is no control. This means that it arises at a time, and takes an object, that is not of one's selecting. The conditions for the development of mindfulness are the 4 factors specified by the Buddha and often mentioned here: association with the right person; hearing the true dhamma; reflecting on what has been heard and understood; practice in accordance with the teaching (i.e., the actual arising of mindfulness). None of these factors are "things to be done". Jon #107930 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: daily activities in satipatthana upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Alex) - In a message dated 6/6/2010 7:14:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (107923) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > So how exactly does a person practices mindfulness? > =============== J: The word "practised" has a particular meaning when it comes to mindfulness/insight. It refers to the actual arising of mindfulness. There is no "practising" of mindfulness in the sense that that word is often used in ordinary speech, that is to say, undertaking an activity that is a preparation for or rehearsal of the real thing. Mindfulness is, in ultimate terms, a kusala mental factor, a conditioned, impersonal dhamma. It arises by conditions over which there is no control. This means that it arises at a time, and takes an object, that is not of one's selecting. The conditions for the development of mindfulness are the 4 factors specified by the Buddha and often mentioned here: association with the right person ---------------------------------------------- That is conventional activity engaged in by a "person" with a "person" and certainly no less conventional than engaging in sitting or walking meditation. ----------------------------------------- ; hearing the true dhamma; ------------------------------------------ Same as I said above. This "hearing" is much more than hearing of sound. It is a purposeful and strongly directed paying of attention to complex speech (concept, concept, concept) and deeply contemplating it (concept, concept, concept). ----------------------------------------- reflecting on what has been heard and understood; practice in accordance with the teaching (i.e., the actual arising of mindfulness). ------------------------------------------- Yes, intentional reflecting, something done purposefully (i.e., spurred by intentional effort, though not by an agent). And practice consists of more than mindfulness arising. It consists of many sorts of wholesome phenomena arising, and much of that is kamma. Nyanatiloka defines 'bhavana' to mean " 'mental development' (lit. 'calling into existence, producing') is what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'. One has to distinguish 2 kinds: development of tranquillity (samatha-bha-vana-), i.e. concentration (sama-dhi), and development of insight (vipassana--bha-vana-), i.e. wisdom (pañña-). " Moreover he asserts: " Mental development forms one of the 3 kinds of meritorious action (_puñña-kiriya-vatthu_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm) ). " And as regards _puñña-kiriya-vatthu_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm) , he points out "In the suttas, 3 are mentioned consisting of giving (liberality; da- na-maya-p.), of morality (si-la-maya-p.) and of mental development (meditation; bha- vana--maya-p.). " ---------------------------------------- None of these factors are "things to be done". ------------------------------------------ Yes, they are, in that they are intentional activities, though not the activities of an agent. What are volitional activities, Jon? When, for example, you prepare and send off an email, is there no purposeful activity underway? Does not such conventional human activity consist of a process of citta and cetasika with intention strongly involved? When one speaks of "doing something," all that is properly meant is that intention and intentional action, i.e., kamma, is underway. If someone (you for example) should take "things to be done" to presume an agent/doer, that is an imposing of a false idea, and instead of simply supporting non-self as intended, what it does is support a disbelief in kamma, and that is a species of wrong view according to the Buddha. There is no doer but there IS doing and there ARE deeds, and belief that this is so is right view, not wrong. Quoting Buddhaghosa, speaking of one who sees rightly: "No doer does he see behind the deeds, no recipient apart from the karma-fruit. And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the karma-results at their arising. Therefore the ancient masters have said: 'No doer of the deeds is found, No one who ever reaps their fruits; Empty phenomena roll on: This view alone is right and true. 'And whilst the deeds and their results Roll on, based on conditions all, There no beginning can be seen, Just as it is with seed and tree.' " (Vis.M. XIX) -------------------------------------------- Jon ========================== With metta, Howard Right Effort "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #107931 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 12:51 pm Subject: Re: suppression of hindrances jonoabb Hi Alex (107924) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Are there various degrees of Kusala (strong, weak, etc)? Are there various degrees of akusala (strong, weak, etc)? > =============== J: Yes, but whenever the citta is kusala, no matter how weak, there is the absence of akusala. > =============== > How does one attain strong enough kusala to make 5 hindrances absent? > > The Buddha didn't say "dana is enough". No, he taught a lot of samadhi. > =============== J: The Buddha taught about all levels of kusala. He explained that the highest level is the development of awareness/insight. > =============== > BTW, dana can be done with a LOT of greed, "*I* am giving you this dana so that *I* may have a future reward". > =============== J: Right. It's not the physical act that counts but the mental state involved. So when the Buddha spoke about the development of kusala he was not speaking about the performing of particular acts, but about the mental state. Jon #107932 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 12:54 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). jonoabb Hi Alex (107925) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > J: Some people understand there are no short cuts and that only mindfulness that has been well-developed in previous lives can be maintained for 7 days/weeks as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ;-)) > > But the sutta doesn't say that! > =============== J: Are you saying that a person with absolutely zero exposure to the teachings in previous lifetimes could become enlightened within the same lifetime as first hearing the teachings? Just trying to understand where you're coming from on this point. > =============== > Please give me a quote that says that many lifetimes of satipatthana is required. > =============== J: I don't have a ready sutta quote for that, but it is so much a part of the Theravada tradition that I've never heard it questioned ;-)) Jon #107933 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 12:56 pm Subject: Re: Difference between conventional and unconventional actions jonoabb Hi Alex (107926) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > So one can go to a strip club, drink beer, etc without self view > but any kind of meditation always involves self view? > =============== J: Normal daily activities such as eating and drinking generally would not involve self-view. I think you'd agree with that? Doing anything that one believes is going to bring more awareness, and doing it only because one holds that belief, but which in fact is not the path taught by the Buddha, would have to involve wrong view. So it comes back to a proper understanding of the teaching on the development of the path. Jon #107934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). nilovg Dear Alex, Op 5-jun-2010, om 17:40 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Please give me a quote that says that many lifetimes of > satipatthana is required. ------- N: I am thinking of Connie's presentation of the Therigaathaa. They accumulated understanding which was 'age enduring'. For ages. The Buddha himself when he was a Bodhisatta had to listen to several Buddhas and had to accumulate the perfections for an incalculable amount of time in order to attain Buddhahood. His disciples had to accumulate the perfections for a lesser amount of time, but still for a long time. In the commentary the expression 'ciira kaala bhaavanaa' is used, a long time development. We can verify for ourselves how long it took before we begun to understand that seeing visible object is not the same as perceiving people and things. -------- A: So how exactly does a person practices mindfulness? ------- N: Jon answered this one and perhaps I can add something. One cannot just start to develop satipa.t.thaana without listening first to the Dhamma We read in the MahaaRaahulovada sutta that the Buddha had to explains many things to Raahula before he could have understanding of naama and ruupa. He explained the five khandhas and Raahulo asked; should he understand only ruupakkhandha. No, also the naamakhandhas, the Buddha answered. When we know the difference between the moments when there is mindfulness of just one reality as it appears through one of the six doors and the moments there is thinking of wholes of persons or things, it will be helpful. From the beginning there should be no expectations that mindfulness and understanding will arise soon. Think of the many incalculable ages. It is of no use to think about mindfulness and wonder when it will arise. We should be grateful for whatever understanding arises, even if it is very little. Nina. #107935 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.0 nichiconn Dear Friends, According to the A.t.thakathaa (Suma^ngalavilaasinii), 323. Iti pa~ncakavasena saamaggirasa.m dassetvaa idaani chakkavasena dassetu.m puna desana.m aarabhi. I don't know what that says. I skip to the end: aarabhi. Begin (again). The monks silent still, Saariputta [dassetu (who) points out, shows. dis + e; dis --> das] continues to blend the diverse ingredients of Eko Dhammo (aahaara- / sankhaara -.t.thitikaa, 1.8). This is to be taken up. That's what I say, liking the idea of a single taste / function / rasa at the end of saamaggi unity, concord. Sixes 323 (6.0) begins: < pas) + a}. *cha dhammaa = Walshe: [sets of] six things; RD: sixfold doctrines. DN 33, 232 cont'd: <> What/which (of the many) are these six(es)? The answer, in brief: 323 = 1-8 1) ajjhattikaani aayatanaani (inner & 2) baahiraani aayatanaani (outer spheres) 3) vi~n~naa.nakaayaa (consciousness-, 4) phassakaayaa (contact-, 5) vedanaakaayaa (feeling-, 6) sa~n~naakaayaa (perception-, 7) sa~ncetanaakaayaa ("willing"- & 8) ta.nhaakaayaa (thirsting-group) 324 = 11-14 11) somanassuupavicaaraa (pleasurable, 12) domanassuupavicaaraa (unpleasurable & 13) upekkhuupavicaaraa (indifferent investigations) 14) saara.niiyaa dhammaa ("fitting") 325 = 15-16 15) vivaadamuulaani (roots of contention) 16) dhaatuyo (elements) 326 = 17) nissara.niyaa dhaatuyo (outgoing elements) 327 = 18-19 18) anuttariyaani (unsurpassed things) 19) anussati.t.thaanaani (recollections) 328 = 20) satatavihaaraa (elements making for deliverance) 329 = 21-22 21) aabhijaatiyo ("species") 22) nibbedhabhaagiyasa~n~naa (perceptions conducive to penetration) ...to be continued, connie #107936 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 3:25 pm Subject: Re: Difference between conventional and unconventional actions truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107926) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > So one can go to a strip club, drink beer, etc without self view > > but any kind of meditation always involves self view? > > =============== > > J: Normal daily activities such as eating and drinking generally >would not involve self-view. I think you'd agree with that? They may involve lots of it. "I am hungry", "I am thirsty", "I gotta get this or that, here or there." Another thing: While it is true that there is no magic full control, conventionally speaking, if the room is dirty one can clean it. If one is hungry, one can eat something and remove hunger (for a while). If one is cold, one puts on more clothing to get warmer. So, conventionally speaking, why can't one practice to develop more kusala? With metta, Alex #107937 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 3:40 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). truth_aerator Dear Nina, Jon, all, > J: Are you saying that a person with absolutely zero exposure to >the teachings in previous lifetimes could become enlightened within >the same lifetime as first hearing the teachings? > > Just trying to understand where you're coming from on this point. Some may, some may not. > > =============== > > Please give me a quote that says that many lifetimes of >satipatthana is required. > > =============== > > J: I don't have a ready sutta quote for that, but it is so much a >part of the Theravada tradition that I've never heard it questioned >;-)) It is said in Commentary to Satipatthana sutta that for an average person capable of being trained, 7 days may be sufficient. For one of keen faculties, a day (12 hours or so) if personally trained by the Buddha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#four Buddha Dhamma wouldn't be akaliko and sanditthiko if it took a LOT of time... As for the Suttas in 4Nikayas, they do not say that Future-Buddha-Gotama trained under more than 1 Buddha (Buddha Kassapa). The talk on perfection, seem to have originated from later KN Books that historically seem to come much later than Main Nikayas. The Bodhisattva vow, the paramis, aren't really mentioned in earlier suttas and they seem to contradict a number of aspects of the Teaching. Ex: No-control (you can't just choose and control to postpone awakening). >N: We read in the MahaaRaahulovada sutta that the >Buddha had to explains many things to Raahula before he could have >understanding of naama and ruupa. As to teaching Rahula and others: It may very well been much less than lots of books. IMHO, With metta, Alex #107938 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 5:10 pm Subject: Concepts do not exist? How can they affect anything? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, If concepts do not have any characteristics, then how can they affect anything (ex: be a source of delusion, or misperception of anicca as nicca)? In CMA: Concepts with mind&matter are object and decisive support conditions for mind&matter. Are they included in "The All" (dhammayatana)? The sutta does state that everything can be included in 12 ayatanas. With metta, Alex #107939 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). nichiconn Dear Alex, Nina, Yes, "ciira kaala bhaavana". And Nagasena said: 10. 'And there is no realisation of Arahatship, O king, in one single life, without a previous keeping of the vows. Only on the utmost zeal and the most devoted practice of righteousness, and with the aid of a suitable teacher, is the realisation of Arahatship attained. http://sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3608.htm For that matter, ask Lodewijk why he read Perfections! peace, connie #107940 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts do not exist? How can they affect anything? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/6/2010 1:13:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, If concepts do not have any characteristics, then how can they affect anything (ex: be a source of delusion, or misperception of anicca as nicca)? ---------------------------------------------- There's really no such thing as concepts, in my understanding. There's just thinking. It it the thinking that has effect. Of course, various complexes that are thought about and seem to be the referents of "concepts," complexes such as people, houses, trees, and cars, do seem to have effect, but in fact it is the more elementary phenomena of which the complexes are composed, the so called paramattha dhammas, that have effect, acting individually and in concert. -------------------------------------------- In CMA: Concepts with mind&matter are object and decisive support conditions for mind&matter. Are they included in "The All" (dhammayatana)? The sutta does state that everything can be included in 12 ayatanas. With metta, Alex =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107941 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). truth_aerator Dear Connie, Nina >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Alex, Nina, > > Yes, "ciira kaala bhaavana". > > And Nagasena said: > 10. 'And there is no realisation of Arahatship, O king, in one single life, without a previous keeping of the vows. Only on the utmost zeal and the most devoted practice of righteousness, and with the aid of a suitable teacher, is the realisation of Arahatship attained. > http://sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3608.htm > > For that matter, ask Lodewijk why he read Perfections! > > peace, > connie Thank you for your quote. To tell you the truth, I do not unquestionably accept it. Nagasena lived much later than the Buddha, and that work seems to post date at least some Abhidhamma pitaka. Between Nagasena and Buddha, I choose the Buddha. With metta, Alex #107942 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts do not exist? How can they affect anything? truth_aerator Hello Howard, >H: There's really no such thing as concepts, in my understanding. >There's just thinking. It it the thinking that has effect. Of course, >various complexes that are thought about and seem to be the referents >of "concepts," complexes such as people, houses, trees, and cars, do >seem to have effect, but in fact it is the more elementary phenomena >of which the complexes are composed, the so called paramattha >dhammas, that have effect, acting individually and in concert. Good reply! Interesting. Thank you very much. With metta, Alex #107943 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). nilovg Dear Alex, Op 6-jun-2010, om 17:40 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > The talk on perfection, seem to have originated from later KN Books > that historically seem to come much later than Main Nikayas. The > Bodhisattva vow, the paramis, aren't really mentioned in earlier > suttas and they seem to contradict a number of aspects of the > Teaching. Ex: No-control (you can't just choose and control to > postpone awakening). -------- N: We read in the Mah?-parinibb?na-sutta (Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. 16, chapter II, 1-4): ... The Exalted One proceeded with a great company of the monks to Kotig?ma; and there he stayed in the village itself. And at that place the Exalted One addressed the monks, and said: ``It is through not understanding and grasping four Ariyan Truths, O monks, that we have had to run so long, to wander so long in this weary path of rebirth, both you and I!'' ``And what are these four?'' ``The Ariyan truth about dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cause of dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cessation of dukkha; and the Ariyan truth about the path that leads to that cessation. But when these Ariyan truths are grasped and known the craving for future life is rooted out, that which leads to renewed becoming is destroyed, and then there is no more birth!'' This is a text pointing to the many lives necessary to develop understanding. In another text the Buddha also spoke about kappas, aeons. Then there are the Jaatakas, very much respected. Postponing awakening: it merely shows: his understanding was incomparable, but he had such immense compassion for us ignorant people that he was willing to go through innumerable lives in order to develop all the Buddha qualities. AS to concepts being different from realities, I think that Howard answered you very well. There is just thinking about concepts. What about now. Do you see people and houses? Then the object is a concept. Touch a table, and is there hardness? Then the object is a reality: the earth element or hardness. Nina. #107944 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts do not exist? How can they affect anything? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 6-jun-2010, om 19:10 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > In CMA: Concepts with mind&matter are object and decisive support > conditions for mind&matter. > > Are they included in "The All" (dhammayatana)? The sutta does state > that everything can be included in 12 ayatanas. ------ N: No, only realities that meet or associate. Dhammaayatana: cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana. Nina. #107945 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:19 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta, the Sixes. 323, suttas 1-6 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 1-2: RD: [6.1] Six fields of personal experience, to wit, sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and mind. (Cha ajjhattikaaniaayatanaani - cakkhaayatana.m, sotaayatana.m, ghaanaayatana.m, jivhaayatana.m, kaayaayatana.m, manaayatana.m.) N: Translation is not correct. The inner aayatanas are the ruupas that are: eyesense, earsense, smellingsense, tastingsense, bodysense. The sixth is manaayatana, including all cittas. [6.2] Six exernal fields [of objects of experience], to wit, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, phenomena (N: dhammas). ( Cha baahiraani aayatanaani - ruupaayatana.m, saddaayatana.m, gandhaayatana.m, rasaayatana.m, pho.t.thabbaayatana.m, dhammaayatana.m.) ------------- N: The sixth external aayatana is dhammaayatana, including cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana. The five senses, the ruupas classified as internal aayatana, and the sense objects experienced through the senses, the ruupas classified as external aayatanas, are coarse ruupas. All the other ruupas are subtle ruupas. We read in Acharn Sujin?s Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 23: Thus, the word aayatana implies association of several dhammas. We read in Acharn Sujin?s Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 7: < Whenever colour appears, the citta is manaayatana, the meeting place for the ruupa that is visible object impinging on the eyesense (cakkuppasaada ruupa) at that moment. The ruupa that impinges on the eyesense is ruupaayatana, ie, the aayatana of visible object, and the eyesense that is impinged on by visible object is cakkhaayatana, ie, the aayatana of eyesense. All the dhammas that 'meet' or associate at that moment are aayatanas. > ------------ The Co refers to the Visuddhimagga for details. The Tiika explains the internal aayatanas as ?of oneself?, one?s own, personal. --------- sutta 3, Walshe Six groups of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na-kaayaa): eye-consciousness, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-consciousness. (Cha vi~n~naa.nakaayaa - cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m, sotavi~n~naa.na.m, ghaanavi~n~naa.na.m, jivhaavi~n~naa.na.m, kaayavi~n~naa.na.m, manovi~n~naa.na.m.) ---------- N: The co: the aggregate of consciousness. Dependent on the eyesense arises kusala vipaakacitta and akusala vipaakacitta. Seeing-consciousness is either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. ----------- Sutta 4, Olds Six bodies of contact: Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue- contact, body-contact, mind-contact. (Cha phassakaayaa - cakkhusamphasso, sotasamphasso, ghaanasamphasso, jivhaasamphasso, kaayasamphasso, manosamphasso.) --------- N: As to eye-contact, the co. states: contact dependent on the eye. Phassa is the cetasika phassa that accompanies every citta. It asists the citta to cognize an object. The co. explains ear-contact in the same way. It states that except for the ten contacts (N: phassa accompanmying the ten vipaakacittas, five kusala vipaaka and five akusala vipaaka) all other contacts are called mano-samphassao, mind-contact. ------------- Sutta 5,Walshe Six groups of feeling (vedanaa-kaayaa): feeling based on eye-contact (cakkhu-samphassajaa vedanaa), on ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind- contact. (Cha vedanaakaayaa - cakkhusamphassajaa vedanaa, sotasamphassajaa vedanaa, ghaanasamphassajaa vedanaa, jivhaasamphassajaa vedanaa, kaayasamphassajaa vedanaa, manosamphassajaa vedanaa.) ------- Sutta 6, RD Six groups of perceptions, to wit, perception on occasion of sensory stimulus, or of ideas*.(N: dhammas) ( Cha sa~n~naakaayaa - ruupasa~n~naa, saddasa~n~naa, gandhasa~n~naa, rasasa~n~naa, pho.t.thabbasa~n~naa, dhammasa~n~naa.) ------- Sutta 7, Walshe Six groups of volition (sa~ncetanaa-kaayaa): volition based on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, mind-objects. (Cha sa~ncetanaakaayaa - ruupasa~ncetanaa, saddasa~ncetanaa, gandhasa~ncetanaa, rasasa~ncetanaa, pho.t.thabbasa~ncetanaa, dhammasa~ncetanaa.) ----------- Sutta 8, RD: Six craving-groups, to wit, the five kinds of sense-objects, and phenomena (N: dhammas). (Cha ta.nhaakaayaa - ruupata.nhaa, saddata.nhaa, gandhata.nhaa, rasata.nhaa, pho.t.thabbata.nhaa, dhammata.nhaa.) --------- N: Conclusion: The dhammas summed up in this sutta by way of six groups of six are occuring now, in daily life. Aayatanas are occuring now, there is the association of objects and doorways so that the experience of objects arises. Contact, phassa cetasika, accompanies the citta arising at this moment, so that citta can experience an object. Contact conditions feeling. Sa~n~naa, remembrance or perception, accompanies each citta and it remembers the object citta experiences. Cetanaa or kamma motivates good or evil deeds. Clinging or tanhaa is bound to arise on account of the objects experienced through each of the six doorways. It keeps us in the cycle of birth and death. ************* Nina. #107946 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.1 nichiconn Dear Friends, DN 33, 323 continued, 6.1-2, aayataani PED: aayatana (3): sphere of perception or sense in general, object of thought, sense-organ & object; relation, order. Approximately covering this meaning (3) is Bdhgh's definition of aayatana at DA 1.124 as sa~njaati and as kaara.na (origin & cause, ie, mutually occasioning & conditioning relations or adaptations). Again, it is just Eko Dhammo. Saariputta has already mentioned five aggregates, pancuupaadaana-kkhandhaa and kaama-gu.naa. (See DN33 5.1-3; dsg# 101682, 101695, 101832). He picks these up again at the beginning of the Sixes, 323: 1) ajjhattikaani aayatanaani (inner & 2) baahiraani aayatanaani (outer "spheres of influence") 3) vi~n~naa.nakaayaa (consciousness-, 4) phassakaayaa (contact-, 5) vedanaakaayaa (feeling-, 6) sa~n~naakaayaa (perception-, 7) sa~ncetanaakaayaa ("willing"- & 8) ta.nhaakaayaa (thirsting-groups). Kindred Sayings teaches 6.1-3 by way of bases, elements and aggregates. In the abhidhamma Book of Elements, it is stated: < 20. ... Matter, Feeling, Perception, Mental-formation and Consciousness aggregates are classified under 5 aggregates, under 12 bases and under 18 elements >; likewise < 48. ... Suffering truth, Origin truth, Path truth and Cessation truth, excluding Nibbaana from the classification of aggregates, are classified under 5 aggregates* under 12 bases and under 18 elements. *See also http://khandhayamaka.blogspot.com/ 6.1 and 6.2 are also mentioned at the start of DN33 Twos, 1): Mind and body (Naama~nca ruupa~nca). dn33 6.1) Cha ajjhattikaaniaayatanaani - cakkhaayatana.m, sotaayatana.m, ghaanaayatana.m, jivhaayatana.m, kaayaayatana.m, manaayatana.m. RD: [6.1] Six fields of personal experience, to wit, sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and mind. << They are bases (aayatanaani) because of actuating (aayatanato), because of being the range of the origin (aayassa tananato), and because of leading on the actuated (aayatassa ... nayanato) suffering of the round [of rebirths]. This is a designation for eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. >> Illustrator, The Boy's Questions, No.6. A.t.thakathaa: Tattha ajjhattikaaniiti ajjhattajjhattikaani. .Tiikaa: 323. Attaana.m adhi ajjhattaa, adhi-saddo samaasavisaye adhikaarattha.m, pavattiattha~nca gahetvaa pavattatiiti attaana.m adhikicca uddissa pavattaa ajjhattaa; ajjhattesu bhavaani ajjhattikaaniiti niyakajjhattesupi abbhantaraani cakkhaadiini vuccanti, taani pana yena ajjhattabhaavena <>ti vuccanti, tamattha.m paaka.ta.m katvaa dassento <>ti aaha. Saddatthato pana ajjhattajjhattaaniyeva ajjhattajjhattikaani yathaa <>ti (ma. ni. 1.246; a. ni. 8.11; paaraa. 8) da.t.thabba.m. Tato ajjhattatoti tato ajjhattajjhattato, yaani ajjhattikaani vuttaani. to be continued... connie #107947 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 2:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 6-jun-2010, om 17:40 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > The talk on perfection, seem to have originated from later KN Books > > that historically seem to come much later than Main Nikayas. The > > Bodhisattva vow, the paramis, aren't really mentioned in earlier > > suttas and they seem to contradict a number of aspects of the > > Teaching. Ex: No-control (you can't just choose and control to > > postpone awakening). > -------- > N: We read in the Mah?-parinibb?na-sutta (Dialogues of the Buddha II, > no. 16, chapter II, 1-4): > > ... The Exalted One proceeded with a great company of the monks to > Kotig?ma; and there he stayed in the village itself. > And at that place the Exalted One addressed the monks, and said: ``It > is through not understanding and grasping four Ariyan Truths, O > monks, that we have had to run so long, to wander so long in this > weary path of rebirth, both you and I!'' > ``And what are these four?'' > ``The Ariyan truth about dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cause of > dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cessation of dukkha; and the > Ariyan truth about the path that leads to that cessation. But when > these Ariyan truths are grasped and known the craving for future life > is rooted out, that which leads to renewed becoming is destroyed, and > then there is no more birth!'' > > This is a text pointing to the many lives necessary to develop > understanding. In another text the Buddha also spoke about kappas, > aeons. As I understand the above DN16 quote, all it is saying is that one was being reborn for a long time (perhaps countless) until one has met the Dhamma and got liberated. It doesn't say that after one has met the Dhamma, one has to be reborn many times. With metta, Alex #107948 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 2:32 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.2 nichiconn Dear Friends, DN 33, 323 continued, 6.1-2, aayataani dn33 6.2) Cha baahiraani aayatanaani - ruupaayatana.m, saddaayatana.m, gandhaayatana.m, rasaayatana.m, pho.t.thabbaayatana.m, dhammaayatana.m. RD: [6.2] Six external fields [of objects of experience], to wit, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, phenomena*. *dhammaa: the co-ordinated impressions of sense and all mental objects. PED: aaramma.na (3): a basis for the working of the mind & intellect; ie sense-object, object of thought or consciousness, the outward constituent in the relation of subject & object, object in general. In this meaning of "relation" it is closely connected with aayatana so that it sometimes takes its place; it is also similar to visaya. Cpd 3 distinguishes a 5 fold object, viz. citta, cetasika, pasaada & sukhuma-ruupa, pa~n~natti, nibbaana. A.t.thakathaa: Baahiraaniiti tato ajjhattajjhattato bahibhuutaani. Vitthaarato pana aayatanakathaa visuddhimagge kathitaava. {vsm ch xv} .Tiikaa: Ajjhattikaana~nhi pa.tiyogiini baahiraani ajjhattadhammaana.m viya bahiddhaadhammaa. <>ti hi saparasantaanikaani cakkhaadiini vuccanti, tathaa ruupaadiini <>ti. Ajjhattaani pana sasantaanikaa eva cakkhuruupaadayo, tato a~n~neva bahiddhaati. to be continued. connie #107949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). nilovg Dear Alex, Op 7-jun-2010, om 16:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > As I understand the above DN16 quote, all it is saying is that one > was being reborn for a long time (perhaps countless) until one has > met the Dhamma and got liberated. It doesn't say that after one has > met the Dhamma, one has to be reborn many times. ------- N: I see your point of view and this is one way one could interprete the text. I interprete it differently, and this is in the light of the Caryapi.taka and commentaries. Nina. #107950 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 4:27 pm Subject: time for awakening truth_aerator > Dear Alex, > Op 7-jun-2010, om 16:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > As I understand the above DN16 quote, all it is saying is that one > > was being reborn for a long time (perhaps countless) until one has > > met the Dhamma and got liberated. It doesn't say that after one has > > met the Dhamma, one has to be reborn many times. > ------- > N: I see your point of view and this is one way one could interprete > the text. > I interprete it differently, and this is in the light of the > Caryapi.taka and commentaries. > Nina. Dear Nina, all, It seems to me that later works (even if they say what you say that they say) contradict the suttas and common sense. Does it really take that long for a good Buddhist to achieve state of saddhanusarin or dhammanusarin? Once on has achieved it, Arhatship will follow within 7 lives. What it appears to me to be the case is that it is very hard to be reborn as a capable person during Dhamma Sassana and live in good enough conditions to be able to study, consider and practice. I am sure that many people are in this position. Maybe one already has the paramis required for saddhanusarin or dhammanusarin? Or in worse case, study hard now, and be reborn as triple rooted person who will achieve saddhanusarin or dhammanusarin state in the next life. IMHO, With metta, Alex #107951 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 7, 2010 11:57 pm Subject: Illusory I-dentification = Inner Ego-Prison... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 20 Kinds of False 'Self'-Projection: What are the 20 invalid Theories of an only apparently existing 'self'? 1: My 'self' is identical with my Body; this physical matter is my 'Ego'. 2: My 'self' has a Body, this physical matter is owned by my 'Ego'. 3: My 'self' is hidden somewhere inside & included within this Body frame. 4: This Body form is hidden inside & included within an extensive 'Ego'. 5: My 'self' is identical with my Feelings; pain, pleasure & neutral feeling are my 'Ego'. 6: My 'self' has Feelings, these sensations are owned by my very own 'Ego'. 7: My 'self' is hidden inside among these Feelings, included within these emotions. 8: These Feelings are hidden inside & included within my all-pervading 'Ego-self'. 9: My 'self' is identical with my Perceptions, these experiences are my 'Ego'. 10: My 'self' has Perceptions, these experiences are owned by my very own 'Ego'. 11: My 'self' is hidden inside these Perceptions, included among all these experiences. 12: These Experiences are hidden inside & included inherently within my 'Ego-self'. 13: My 'self' is identical with my mental Constructions, ideas & thoughts are my 'Ego'. 14: My 'self' possess mental Constructions, these activities are owned by my 'Ego'. 15: My 'self' is hidden inside among these mental Constructions, included as a core. 16: These Cogitations are hidden inside & included inherently within my 'ego-self'. 17: My 'self' is identical with my Consciousness, this bare Awareness is my 'Ego'. 18: My 'self' has a Consciousness, this naked Awareness is owned by my 'Ego'. 19: My 'self' is hidden inside this Consciousness, included in all aware moments. 20: This Consciousness is hidden inside & included inherently within my 'self'. Why are these 20 common assumptions invalid, erroneous, wrong and false ? Because the concept of a Self inherently implies that: 1: It is something constant over time: an identical 'same self'... 2: That it is 'self'-controllable i.e. fully independent & autonomic... 3: That it is pleasant, since if self was not pleasant and the 'Self' really was in power, it would make whatever is self, become pleasant! However, neither body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness is constant and the same, even for a moment... Therefore they cannot possibly ever qualify as a same 'self' nor be identical with any stable & definable identity...!!! Neither is body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness fully controllable... Neither can they therefore ever meet the requirements of a 'self'...!!! Neither is body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness always pleasant... Neither can they therefore ever contain or coincide with any 'self'...!!! Could the assumed ‘'self'’ be a combination of any of 1-20? No so! Why not? If 'self' is not found within any of 1-20, it cannot ever be a collection of them! 1+5+9+13+17 are examples of illusory identification with mere passing states... 2+6+10+14+18 are examples of fictitious immanence & invented ownership... 3+7+11+15+19 are examples of imagined inclusion in something becoming otherwise... 4+8+12+16+20 are examples of phony possessing as an invisible acquisition... This doctrine of selflessness, anatta, No self, Not Anyone, Anything, Anywhere is particular to the Buddhas. No other is able to discover, comprehend nor teach this! More on this subtle Selflessness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/ Anatta_No_Self.htm The Blessed Buddha radically pointed out: All phenomena is void of a 'self' or of what belongs to any 'self'! Within this frame is therefore nothing belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything owned by this frame in anyone, anywhere or elsewhere... Like a Scarecrow empty of self, soul, me, I, mine & Ego... Source: The Moderate Speeches of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya 106 [ii 106] The Way to the Imperturbable. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) #107952 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2010 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] time for awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Op 7-jun-2010, om 18:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that later works (even if they say what you say that > they say) contradict the suttas and common sense. -------- N: Buddhaghosa used the oldest commentaries and edited these, mentioning each time when he added his own opinion. We discussed such matters before, and thus I shall not repeat the arguments. For me reading the commentaries themselves is the most convincing. But not everybody is inclined to do so. I thought that you study the Visuddhimagga? --------- > > A: Does it really take that long for a good Buddhist to achieve > state of saddhanusarin or dhammanusarin? Once on has achieved it, > Arhatship will follow within 7 lives. > > What it appears to me to be the case is that it is very hard to be > reborn as a capable person during Dhamma Sassana and live in good > enough conditions to be able to study, consider and practice. I am > sure that many people are in this position. -------- N: I believe that it must have taken many lives of listening so that today we are interested again and are inclined to study more. --------- > > A: Maybe one already has the paramis required for saddhanusarin or > dhammanusarin? Or in worse case, study hard now, and be reborn as > triple rooted person who will achieve saddhanusarin or > dhammanusarin state in the next life. --------- N: It is not difficult to verify which paramis are still deficient. Is metta difficient? And patience in all circumstances? And how is it with renunciation, nekkhamma? Not one of the paramis should be neglected and one can find out for oneself which ones are deficient. Nina. #107953 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jun 8, 2010 1:05 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.3 nichiconn Dear Friends, DN 33 323 (6.1-8) continued Path of Purity, ch.15 Sense Organs and Elements, p572: << the eye and the visible object and so on, do not think thus: "Good would it be were consciousness to arise out of our concord!" Nor do they act, occupy themselves by being door, physical basis or object, so that consciousness may arise. But it is natural that out of the concord between eye and visible object and so on, there should arise eye-consciousness and so on. >> Likewise, << when there is consciousness as nutriment there is the finding of a footing for name-and-form ... That is how there is an origin to this whole category of suffering >> Netti 867. dn33 6.3-8: 3) vi~n~naa.na-kaayaa (consciousness) 4) phassa-kaayaa (contact) 5) vedanaa-kaayaa (feeling) 6) sa~n~naa-kaayaa (perception) 7) sa~ncetanaa-kaayaa (volition) 8) ta.nhaa-kaayaa That is, the the five-fold contact group (phassa-pa~ncaka) [listed at Dhs 1, ending with consciousness] + Origin. dn33 6.3) Cha vi~n~naa.nakaayaa - cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m, sotavi~n~naa.na.m, ghaanavi~n~naa.na.m, jivhaavi~n~naa.na.m, kaayavi~n~naa.na.m, manovi~n~naa.na.m. Walshe Six groups of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na-kaayaa): eye-consciousness, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-consciousness. RD Six groups of consciousness, to wit, visual, auditory, olfactory, sapid, tactual and perceptual-and-conceptual consciousness. A.t.thakathaa: Vi~n~naa.nakaayaati vi~n~naa.nasamuuhaa. Cakkhuvi~n~naa.nanti cakkhupasaadanissita.m kusalaakusalavipaakavi~n~naa.na.m. Esa nayo sabbattha. .Tiikaa: Vi~n~naa.nasamuuhaa>>ti ettha yadipi tesa.m vi~n~naa.naana.m samodhaana.m natthi bhinnakaalikattaa, cittena pana ekajjha.m abhisa.myuuhanavasena samuuhataa vuttaa yathaa <>ti. Cakkhupasaadanissitanti cakkhupasaada.m nissaaya paccaya.m labhitvaa uppanna.m kusalaakusalavipaakavi~n~naa.na.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nataasaama~n~nena ekajjha.m katvaa vutta.m. SUB CY Mahaanidaana (p66) << Consciousness's meaning of emptiness is deep because consciousness is said to be the distinctive basis for the misapprehension of self. As it is said: "For a long time the uninstructed worldling has been attached to this, appropriated it and misapprehended it, thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'" (S.XII,61: ii,94). Consciousness's meanings of absence of an agent and manifestation of rebirth-linking without transmigration are deep because of the strength of people's adherence to a self as the agent of consciousness and as the subject of transmigration in sa'msaara. >> to be continued... connie #107954 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 8, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: Can one be a sekha and not know it? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > N: Buddhaghosa used the oldest commentaries and edited these, > mentioning each time when he added his own opinion. We discussed >such matters before, and thus I shall not repeat the arguments. Ok. > I thought that you study the Visuddhimagga? I do read it a bit, though I don't accept everything from VsM. > N: It is not difficult to verify which paramis are still deficient. > Is metta difficient? And patience in all circumstances? And how is >it with renunciation, nekkhamma? Not one of the paramis should be > neglected and one can find out for oneself which ones are deficient. > > Nina. This is a very tricky question. A householder once returner can be married and a worldling may be a celibate monk. Angulimala murdered 999 people and still could become an Arahat. A worldling may be very nice on the outside and inside and yet don't achieve stream entry any time soon. Until sutta in AN 9:12 (with substratum remaining), Ven. Sariputta (and everyone else except the Buddha) didn't know about existence of trainees (stream enterer to Anagami). Only worldlings and Arahats. #2 in http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanip\ ata/002-sihanadavaggo-e.html Sa-up?disesasuttam ? With substratum remaining The sutta evidence points that even an Arahant may not know about the existence of stages of stream-entry to Anagami. Arahant would definitely know the fact of being released (knowledge of destruction of taints). Nothing to say about worldling to know the amount of accumulations and paramis! In Vinaya Mv 1.23.1-10, Ven.Sariputta heard Assaji in Rajagaha. MN74: Sariputta became an Arahant on 14th day (MN111) near Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak Mountain, in the Boar's Cave In Savatti Sariputta learned about preliminary stages to Arhatship. Since it took him 14 days to become an Arahant (and I presume around 15 days from hearing Asajji) most likely ven. Sariputta hasn't been to Savatti as a monk, where he has heard the teaching on sekhas for the first time. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv.01.23.01-10.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.074.than.html It took 14 days (half a month) for Sariputta to become Arhat. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html With metta, Alex #107955 From: Vince Date: Tue Jun 8, 2010 8:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > Thx for your comments. thanks to yours too :) > S: There are different degrees of panna. Panna has to develop from > the very slightest degree up to the "highest cognition". I don't see it in that way. The apparent accumulation is a progress in detachment. We cannot increase or decrease panna but this is a -self delusion about the own power. We only can act in the wrong ideas and attachments. >>Do you understand the Buddha action different of wisdom?. > ... > S: Metta and panna are different cetasikas with different > characteristics. There can be metta with or without panna. Even > those who have never heard the Buddha's teachings may develop metta. I think this is quite an isolated theory without be fitted inside life. Cetasikas are functions and a description for the acting citta. What you says have sense if we take cetasikas as substantial objects with a place in the space of the mind. This is how we grasp them in order to understand but in fact that's not truth. There are not citta and cetasikas but just movement, a flow. The unavoidable link between metta and panna exists because while we are alive there is a becoming and a plurality of beings. When panna arises towards the nature of living beings, metta arises in a natural way as soon panna check what they are. This is unavoidable. There is the cultivation of metta as you cited. This is the cultivation (effort) to be detached of the -self and the unwholesome . Here we talk about metta as a cetasika but this understanding is a preliminar of metta, working as a way to metta or panna. In the same way the cultivation of the understanding still is not panna but a way driving to the arising of panna. Regarding living beings, panna and metta are joined while we are alive. The contrary would be also contradictory with Buddha's life. Well this how I understand this. I share your explanation but not the manifestation. > Taking the last question, for example, you mentioned before that you > were trying to listen to some of the KS recordings but you found the > English difficult. I was wondering if you had tried again? no... I don't have problems to read and write English but I don't have enough skill with talks and conversations. Today I prefer reading and writing. I have read quite Sujin things. But sometimes I think some people forgot the Abhidhamma is a tool instead an end, and I think this is not the Sujin understanding at all. > I was also wondering whether you have friends you discuss the Dhamma > with in Spanish too. We had a couple of other friends on DSG from > Spain before and I was thinking of them too. No need to answer > these qus if you'd prefer not to! ok, just I didn't understand the relation with the thread :) I have Dhamma friends but I ignore who are these persons, I don't know.. best, Vince. #107956 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 8, 2010 11:14 pm Subject: Ceasing the Flame! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Who enters Nibb?na, Happy, Free in Peace? Wrong question! Why? There was no-one really there in the first place...! Nibb ana is there. Beings attain it, but no-one is ever seen entering it... There was no 'entity' or 'person' there, but a process that simply stops! Right question: Not Who, but What is then absolutely free? Right answer: Form is then free, Feeling is then free, Perception is then free, Mental Construction is then free, and Consciousness itself is then free! Cut short: The 5 clusters of clinging are instantly freed! When all craving and all clinging is completely relinquished and eliminated, then they are all completely irreversibly freed and they by that evaporate, disintegrate, fade away and vanish... This is the signless Nibb ana... The Blessed Buddha once explained: When past conditioning is exhausted, and no fresh causality is produced, then mind is no longer lead to future rebirth. When cravings no more arise, the seed is consumed! Still-minded ones cease like the flame of this lamp... Sutta Nipata 235 What actually stops burning right there? The Fire of Greed, Hate and Ignorance, is finally extinguished in Nibb ana... On this veritable "Fire of Painful Existence" see also: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Burning.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Burning_Five.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Ceasing the Flame! #107957 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 11:31 am Subject: More dhammas rolling on.... sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Mike?& All, ? A month ago, we had no idea at all we'd be moving anywhere...... but we never know, even in a conventional sense, let alone in a paramattha sense what lies around the next little corner or citta! ? Now, we're watching our rather stylish Hong Kong apartment being dismantled as friends come to pick up pieces of furniture and other offerings. Usually, we live a rather quiet life-style and seldom entertain at all at home. In the last week, by contrast, it's been a continuous "Open House". This afternoon, for example, Jon and I were trying to add the finishing touches - the announcements and music - to the most recently edited discussions as every fifteen minutes of so, someone would call or knock to pick up a filing cabinet, then my desk and office chair, Jon's office chair, plants, the ladder, small chests and so on! We laughed about it - simple tasks are getting more and more difficult. By the time we leave next Thursday, it'll be a clean, empty flat and everything will have found a home and the discussions should be uploaded...... ? Just dhammas rolling on. By rolling on, Mike, we mean just arising and falling away.... Usually, I hate moves and all that's involved, but truly when we appreciate that there are just different dhammas through different door-ways, no matter whether one is reading the Tipitaka or busy working/doing chores, the less we think about "Dhamma activities" and "non-Dhamma activities". ? Yesterday, we did manage to find time to take a visiting friend who is half-Thai up the Peak and out for lunch. We chatted about some basic ideas in Buddhism, our move plans, financial affairs and other ordinary topics. Again, I don't distinguish or mind about the topic - just like now, just dhammas rolling on. Panna, right understanding, can arise anytime at all. Anytime at all is the test of understanding, the understanding of seeing, visible object and other realities. ? Please, everyone, keep up the interesting threads and I look forward to participating more when I can.... ? Metta ? Sarah ======= ? ? #107958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More dhammas rolling on.... nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 9-jun-2010, om 13:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > By the time we leave next Thursday, it'll be a clean, empty flat > and everything will have found a home and the discussions should be > uploaded...... ------- N:I enjoyed reading your story. We never know what will happen. We wanted to take a break for a few days, but now Lodewijk does not feel well enough to drive. He is sleeping now. Alan said that Conditions will be ready at the printers in two weeks and what is your postal address, so that we ask Alan to send you a packedge. If anyone is interested let me know off line. I received Khun Bong's book (in Thai) and will see what I can translate and post here. Looking forward to your uploaded discussions, Nina. #107959 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 2:02 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 18. Rebirth in different planes of existence. (part 1) nilovg Dear friends, Rebirth in different planes of existence. (part 1) Akusala kamma and kusala kamma of different beings can produce nineteen different types of rebirth-consciousness, pa.tisandhi-citta, in all, arising in different planes of existence. The pa.tisandhicitta is vipaakacitta, the result of kamma. One pa.tisandhi-citta is akusala vipaaka and eighteen types are kusala vipaaka. There are many degrees of each of these nineteen types of pa.tisandhi-citta because the kamma that produces them can be of many degrees. Birth in a woeful plane is the result of a bad deed and birth in a happy plane is the result of a good deed. Since the deeds of beings are of many different degrees of kusala and akusala, the results are of many different degrees as well. The pa.tisandhi-citta that is akusala vipaakacitta arises in an unhappy plane of existence and the pa.tisandhi-citta that is kusala vipaakacitta arises in a happy plane of existence. A plane of existence is the place where one is born. There are different woeful planes and different happy planes of existence. Only one type of pa.tisandhi-citta is akusala vipaaka, but it is of many degrees. There are many varieties of akusala kamma and thus there must be many varieties of an unhappy rebirth. The unhappy rebirth we can see in this world is birth as an animal. Apart from the animal world there are three more classes of woeful planes, which we cannot see; they are the world of petas (ghosts), the world of asuras (demons), and the hell planes. There are different kinds of hell planes because there are many degrees of akusala kamma which produce different kinds of unhappy rebirth. The akusala vip?ka in hell is more intense than the sufferings which can be experienced in the human plane. The descriptions of hells in the Buddhist teachings are not merely allegories; the experience of unpleasant things through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense is akusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka is reality. Life in a hell plane is not permanent; when one's lifespan in a hell plane is over there can be rebirth in another plane. Birth as a human being is a happy rebirth. In the human plane there is opportunity for the development of kusala. One can study Dhamma and learn to develop the way leading to the end of defilements, to the end of birth and death. Birth in the human plane is kusala vipaaka, but during one's lifespan in this plane there are both kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Each person experiences different results in life: there are gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, happiness and misery. It is due to kamma whether someone is born into pleasant or unpleasant surroundings, whether he belongs to a family which is well-to-do or which is poor. The experience of pleasant and unpleasant things through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense are the results of kamma. Other happy planes, apart from the human plane, are the heavenly planes. In the heavenly planes there is more kusala vip?ka than in the human plane and less akusala vip?ka. There are several heavenly planes and although life in a heavenly plane lasts a very long time, it is not permanent. The woeful planes, the human plane and the six heavenly planes which are deva planes, are sensuous planes of existence. Sensuous planes of existence are planes where there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, the experience of tangible object through the bodysense and other kaamaavacara cittas (cittas which are of the sensuous plane of consciousness). There are eleven classes of sensuous planes of existence in all. In the ?Discourse on the Lesser Analysis of Deeds? (Middle Length Sayings III, number 135) we read that Subha asks the Buddha what the cause is of the different results human beings experience from the time of their birth: ?Now, good Gotama, what is the cause, what is the reason that lowness and excellence are to be seen among human beings while they are in human form? For, good Gotama, human beings of short lifespan are to be seen and those of long lifespan; those of many and those of few illnesses; those who are ugly, those who are beautiful; those who are of little account, those of great account; those who are poor, those who are wealthy; those who are of lowly families, those of high families; those who are weak in wisdom, those who are full of wisdom.? The Buddha answered Subha: ?Deeds are one?s own, brahman youth, beings are heirs to deeds, deeds are matrix, deeds are kin, deeds are arbiters. Deed divides beings, that is to say by lowness and excellence.? ********* Nina. #107960 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Can one be a sekha and not know it? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 8-jun-2010, om 17:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > N: It is not difficult to verify which paramis are still deficient. > > Is metta difficient? And patience in all circumstances? And how > is >it with renunciation, nekkhamma? Not one of the paramis should be > > neglected and one can find out for oneself which ones are deficient. > > > > A:This is a very tricky question. A householder once returner can > be married and a worldling may be a celibate monk. ---------- N: Renunciation is not merely going forth as a monk, it has a wider meaning. Renunciation from your own pleasure and comfort in order to attend to others' need is also nekkhamma. I asked the above question simply so that people can check and find out that the perfections are far from being sufficiently accumulated. I find it not helpful to be thinking of reaching enlightenment and even arahatship. It is best to develop understanding of this moment. That is already difficult enough. We learnt that aversion is the near enemy of compassion, but how difficult to know this near enemy when it arises. The owner of my venetable shop who is from India, has great trouble. His wife who is pregnant is in hospital and both she and the baby are in danger. I keep thinking of them, with sadness and worry and this is not true compassion. I know in general that kusala and akusala alternate, but to know exactly those different moments is hard. Only pa~n~naa that has been developed can discern them. Such examples can show us how little we know. Why think of arahatship now? As to your study of the Visuddhimagga, if you continue studying the Visuddhimagga you may find that seemingly contradictions will disappear. Nina. #107961 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Can one be a sekha and not know it? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N: Renunciation is not merely going forth as a monk, it has a wider >meaning. Renunciation from your own pleasure and comfort in order >to >attend to others' need is also nekkhamma. Exactly. One can be "renunciate in robes/externals only". What I tried to say in my previous post was that outward appearances can deceptive. A householder may have more renunciation than an ascetic. However, what I also said that one's present and some past states may not always show the whole picture as to accumulations. IMHO one simply cannot judge one's own entire level of accumulations from partial data (of present and near-past states). Anulimala had lots of dosa cittas during the period when he was killing 999 people, and if he would check his level of paramis, it is unlikely that he would see a lot of positive. Similar with us. One can't use a short segment of time to estimate one's total parami accumulations. I wonder if it is possible at all to know everything about one's accumulations. Are there any sutta or VsM quotes about this? With metta, Alex #107962 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 4:11 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.4 nichiconn Dear Friends, dn33 323 continued, 6.4 phassa-kaayaa A.t.thakathaa: Cakkhusamphassoti cakkhunissito samphasso. Sotasamphassaadiisupi eseva nayo. Manosamphassoti ime dasa samphasse .thapetvaa seso sabbo manosamphasso naama. .Tiikaa: Cakkhusannissito samphasso, na cakkhudvaariko. Imedasa samphasseti ime pasaadavatthuke dasa vipaakasamphasse .thapetvaa. Eteneva nayenaati etena phasse vutteneva nayena. 4) Cha phassakaayaa - cakkhusamphasso, sotasamphasso, ghaanasamphasso, jivhaasamphasso, kaayasamphasso, manosamphasso. Olds Six bodies of contact: Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact. RD Six groups of contacts, to wit, visual and other sensory contact, and impact on the mind. Mahaanidaana 20: ...If those qualities, etc. through which there is a description of the mental body and the material body were all absent, would either designation-contact or impingement-contact be discerned? Mahaanidaana, pp73-4: With mentality-materiality as condition there is contact. CY: When it is said (in the usual formulation of dependent arising), "With the six sense bases as condition there is contact," inclusion is made of only the six kinds of resultant contact, that is, eye-contact, etc. But here the Buddha wishes to show the distinct conditionally arisen (kinds of contact) whether or not they are included by the phrase "With the six sense bases as condition there is contact"; and he also wishes to show a distinctive condition for contact different from the six sense bases. Therefore he says: "With mentality-materiality as condition there is contact." What has the Exalted One explained in this section of the sutta? He has explained the source (cause) of the conditions. For this sutta is called "The Great Discourse on Causation" because it is explained to disentangle and unravel conditions. SUB CY: "Inclusion is made of only the six kinds of resultant contact": because in the numerous suttas and in the Abhidhamma (the factors of dependent arising) that begin with consciousness and end in feeling are treated as resultants, and thus contact is usually interpreted as including only the resultant kinds of contact. "Whether or not they are included by the phrase": those included are the six kinds of resultant contact; those not included are the non-resultant kinds of contact, i.e. wholesome, unwholesome and functional contacts. When the six sense bases are mentioned, only the internal sense bases are included; thus the Buddha "wishes to show a distinctive condition for contact different from the six sense bases." For the six sense bases, such as the eye, etc., are not the only condition for contact. Material phenomena such as the visible form base and mental phenomena such as eye-consciousness are also conditions. As it is said: "In dependence upon the eye and visible forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact." ...to be continued, connie #107963 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Can one be a sekha and not know it? nilovg Dear Alex, I have to think about this, and see you next week, after a break. Nina. Op 9-jun-2010, om 17:51 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I wonder if it is possible at all to know everything about one's > accumulations. Are there any sutta or VsM quotes about this? #107964 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 6:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: daily activities in satipatthana jonoabb Hi Howard (107930) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > The conditions for the development of mindfulness are the 4 factors > specified by the Buddha and often mentioned here: association with the right > person > ---------------------------------------------- > That is conventional activity engaged in by a "person" with a "person" > and certainly no less conventional than engaging in sitting or walking > meditation. > =============== J: I don't see it that way. One can never know from which person and it what circumstances one will hear a snippet of Dhamma explained in a way that helps one's understanding along. > =============== > ; hearing the true dhamma; > ------------------------------------------ > Same as I said above. This "hearing" is much more than hearing of > sound. It is a purposeful and strongly directed paying of attention to complex > speech (concept, concept, concept) > =============== J: What you're describing here is listening rather than hearing. Listening is, by definition, a directed activity while hearing is a resultant thing (same as looking vs. seeing). Hearing the dhamma -- that is to say, hearing the teaching explained in a way that is appropriate for the hearer -- is something that happens (or doesn't) because of previous kamma. Of course, for the hearing to be meaningful there must be the paying of attention to and reflecting on what is being explained, as you observe above. But it's the exposure to the teaching that's being referred to in the text rather than the manner of listening, in my view. Unless the true dhamma is being heard, even the most attentive listening will be of no real use. > =============== > > reflecting on what has been heard and understood; practice in accordance > with the teaching (i.e., the actual arising of mindfulness). > ------------------------------------------- > Yes, intentional reflecting, something done purposefully (i.e., > spurred by intentional effort, though not by an agent). > =============== J: Reflecting is (or at least can be) an involuntary thing. The kind of 'background thinking' that is going on all the time could be considered a kind of reflecting. So here again no purposeful activity is required. > =============== And practice consists of > more than mindfulness arising. It consists of many sorts of wholesome > phenomena arising, and much of that is kamma. > =============== J: Yes, not just mindfulness but kusala consciousness accompanied by mindfulness and other kusala factors. But the point is that practice refers to the actual *arising* of those dhammas rather than the doing of anything for the purpose of inducing such arising. > =============== > Nyanatiloka defines 'bhavana' to mean " 'mental development' (lit. > 'calling into existence, producing') ... And as regards _puñña-kiriya-vatthu_ > (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm) , he points out > "In the suttas, 3 are mentioned consisting of giving (liberality; dÄ? > na-maya-p.), of morality (sÄ«la-maya-p.) and of mental development (meditation; bhÄ? > vanÄ?-maya-p.). " > =============== J: I'm in general agreement with this. > =============== > None of these factors are "things to be done". > ------------------------------------------ > Yes, they are, in that they are intentional activities, though not the > activities of an agent. What are volitional activities, Jon? When, for > example, you prepare and send off an email, is there no purposeful activity > underway? Does not such conventional human activity consist of a process of > citta and cetasika with intention strongly involved? > =============== J: I have no argument with what you say here, but I'm afraid I don't see its relevance to our discussion. There's nothing 'wrong' with volitional activities per se. The point is simply that when the Buddha spoke of, for example, dana (generosity), he was not speaking of a particular class of act/activity, but rather of the moments of kusala consciousness accompanied by the mental factor of alobha (non-attachment), regardless of when and where (or in whom) they occur > =============== When one speaks of > "doing something," all that is properly meant is that intention and intentional > action, i.e., kamma, is underway. If someone (you for example) should take > "things to be done" to presume an agent/doer, that is an imposing of a > false idea, and instead of simply supporting non-self as intended, what it > does is support a disbelief in kamma, and that is a species of wrong view > according to the Buddha > =============== J: No particular argument from me on any of this. For me the problem with "things to be done" is that it just wasn't what the Buddha was talking about. > =============== There is no doer but there IS doing and there ARE > deeds, and belief that this is so is right view, not wrong. Quoting > Buddhaghosa, speaking of one who sees rightly: > > "No doer does he see behind the deeds, no recipient apart from the > karma-fruit. And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are > using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any > action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the > karma-results at their arising. Therefore the ancient masters have said: > > 'No doer of the deeds is found, > No one who ever reaps their fruits; > Empty phenomena roll on: > This view alone is right and true. > > 'And whilst the deeds and their results > Roll on, based on conditions all, > There no beginning can be seen, > Just as it is with seed and tree.' " (Vis.M. XIX) > =============== J: Thanks, nice quote. I particularly noted: "And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the karma-results at their arising. Both the 'action' and its 'doer' are conventional concepts. Jon #107965 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Difference between conventional and unconventional actions jonoabb Hi Alex (107936) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex > > > > (107926) > > J: Normal daily activities such as eating and drinking generally >would not involve self-view. I think you'd agree with that? > > They may involve lots of it. "I am hungry", "I am thirsty", "I gotta get this or that, here or there." > =============== J: The everyday use of "I" is not necessarily indicative of the presence of self-view. Self-view is the taking of dhammas for self in the sense of being subject to control or mastery. The expression "I" and other labels are conventions, and useful ones at that. > =============== > Another thing: While it is true that there is no magic full control, conventionally speaking, if the room is dirty one can clean it. If one is hungry, one can eat something and remove hunger (for a while). If one is cold, one puts on more clothing to get warmer. > > > So, conventionally speaking, why can't one practice to develop more kusala? > =============== J: The idea that kusala can be made or induced to arise by undertaking a certain form of "practice" would be an example of taking dhammas for self in the sense of being subject to control or mastery (see above), and thus wrong view. Jon #107966 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 6:39 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). jonoabb Hi Alex (107937) > > J: Are you saying that a person with absolutely zero exposure to >the teachings in previous lifetimes could become enlightened within >the same lifetime as first hearing the teachings? > > > > Just trying to understand where you're coming from on this point. > > Some may, some may not. > =============== J: OK, so to your understanding of the teachings, some people with zero exposure to the teachings in previous lifetimes (but not others) are capable of becoming enlightened within the same lifetime as first hearing the teachings (I hope I've understood you correctly). In that case I'd be interested to know what factors, in your understanding, would determine whether a person is/becomes a person who is capable of enlightenment within the same lifetime as first hearing the teachings. Also, among the 'others' who need to hear the teachings in previous lifetimes first, what determines when such a person reaches the stage where he/she is capable of enlightenment within a single lifetime? > =============== > Buddha Dhamma wouldn't be akaliko and sanditthiko if it took a LOT of time... > =============== J: To my understanding, the terms 'sanditthiko' and 'akaaliko' used by the Buddha to describe the teaching have nothing to do with how long it takes to attain enlightenment. > =============== > As for the Suttas in 4Nikayas, they do not say that Future-Buddha-Gotama trained under more than 1 Buddha (Buddha Kassapa). > > The talk on perfection, seem to have originated from later KN Books that historically seem to come much later than Main Nikayas. The Bodhisattva vow, the paramis, aren't really mentioned in earlier suttas and they seem to contradict a number of aspects of the Teaching. Ex: No-control (you can't just choose and control to postpone awakening). > =============== J: Yes, you've made these observations before. Why are you so keen to support the view that enlightenment can be attained within a single lifetime? Jon #107967 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 9, 2010 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: daily activities in satipatthana upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/9/2010 2:33:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107930) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > The conditions for the development of mindfulness are the 4 factors > specified by the Buddha and often mentioned here: association with the right > person > ---------------------------------------------- > That is conventional activity engaged in by a "person" with a "person" > and certainly no less conventional than engaging in sitting or walking > meditation. > =============== J: I don't see it that way. One can never know from which person and it what circumstances one will hear a snippet of Dhamma explained in a way that helps one's understanding along. ------------------------------------------------- But of course one can gain from it! Who would doubt that? But that is irrelevant to the matter of conventionality. ------------------------------------------------- > =============== > ; hearing the true dhamma; > ------------------------------------------ > Same as I said above. This "hearing" is much more than hearing of > sound. It is a purposeful and strongly directed paying of attention to complex > speech (concept, concept, concept) > =============== J: What you're describing here is listening rather than hearing. Listening is, by definition, a directed activity while hearing is a resultant thing (same as looking vs. seeing). -------------------------------------------------- No, Jon. Hearing is consciousness of sound, period. But when one speaks of "hearing the true Dhamma," there must be grasping of ideas. As regards the meaning of that phrase, the mind door is essentially involved. The phrase is not literal. (The Dhamma is not sound.) --------------------------------------------------- Hearing the dhamma -- that is to say, hearing the teaching explained in a way that is appropriate for the hearer -- is something that happens (or doesn't) because of previous kamma. -------------------------------------------------- Who says "no"? -------------------------------------------------- Of course, for the hearing to be meaningful there must be the paying of attention to and reflecting on what is being explained, as you observe above. But it's the exposure to the teaching that's being referred to in the text rather than the manner of listening, in my view. Unless the true dhamma is being heard, even the most attentive listening will be of no real use. ---------------------------------------------------- Well, I agree with that, Jon. I haven't disagreed with it. ---------------------------------------------------- > =============== > > reflecting on what has been heard and understood; practice in accordance > with the teaching (i.e., the actual arising of mindfulness). > ------------------------------------------- > Yes, intentional reflecting, something done purposefully (i.e., > spurred by intentional effort, though not by an agent). > =============== J: Reflecting is (or at least can be) an involuntary thing. The kind of 'background thinking' that is going on all the time could be considered a kind of reflecting. So here again no purposeful activity is required. ------------------------------------------------------ I disagree. There is subliminal will involved, spurred in this case mainly by having learned Dhamma and having interest in it. More often, though, our background thinking is spurred by tanha. ------------------------------------------------------- > =============== And practice consists of > more than mindfulness arising. It consists of many sorts of wholesome > phenomena arising, and much of that is kamma. > =============== J: Yes, not just mindfulness but kusala consciousness accompanied by mindfulness and other kusala factors. But the point is that practice refers to the actual *arising* of those dhammas rather than the doing of anything for the purpose of inducing such arising. > =============== > Nyanatiloka defines 'bhavana' to mean " 'mental development' (lit. > 'calling into existence, producing') ... And as regards _puñña-kiriya-vatthu_ > (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm) , he points out > "In the suttas, 3 are mentioned consisting of giving (liberality; d� > na-maya-p.), of morality (sÄ«la-maya-p.) and of mental development (meditation; bh� > van�-maya-p.). " > =============== J: I'm in general agreement with this. > =============== > None of these factors are "things to be done". > ------------------------------------------ > Yes, they are, in that they are intentional activities, though not the > activities of an agent. What are volitional activities, Jon? When, for > example, you prepare and send off an email, is there no purposeful activity > underway? Does not such conventional human activity consist of a process of > citta and cetasika with intention strongly involved? > =============== J: I have no argument with what you say here, but I'm afraid I don't see its relevance to our discussion. ------------------------------------------------- ;-)) Then we are engaged in two separate conversations, each with himself. Email soliloquies, I suppose. :-P -------------------------------------------------- There's nothing 'wrong' with volitional activities per se. The point is simply that when the Buddha spoke of, for example, dana (generosity), he was not speaking of a particular class of act/activity, but rather of the moments of kusala consciousness accompanied by the mental factor of alobha (non-attachment), regardless of when and where (or in whom) they occur > =============== When one speaks of > "doing something," all that is properly meant is that intention and intentional > action, i.e., kamma, is underway. If someone (you for example) should take > "things to be done" to presume an agent/doer, that is an imposing of a > false idea, and instead of simply supporting non-self as intended, what it > does is support a disbelief in kamma, and that is a species of wrong view > according to the Buddha > =============== J: No particular argument from me on any of this. For me the problem with "things to be done" is that it just wasn't what the Buddha was talking about. > =============== There is no doer but there IS doing and there ARE > deeds, and belief that this is so is right view, not wrong. Quoting > Buddhaghosa, speaking of one who sees rightly: > > "No doer does he see behind the deeds, no recipient apart from the > karma-fruit. And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are > using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any > action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the > karma-results at their arising. Therefore the ancient masters have said: > > 'No doer of the deeds is found, > No one who ever reaps their fruits; > Empty phenomena roll on: > This view alone is right and true. > > 'And whilst the deeds and their results > Roll on, based on conditions all, > There no beginning can be seen, > Just as it is with seed and tree.' " (Vis.M. XIX) > =============== J: Thanks, nice quote. I particularly noted: "And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the karma-results at their arising. Both the 'action' and its 'doer' are conventional concepts. Jon ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107968 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:15 am Subject: Re: daily activities in satipatthana rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of > any > > action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the > > karma-results at their arising. Therefore the ancient masters have said: > > > > 'No doer of the deeds is found, > > No one who ever reaps their fruits; > > Empty phenomena roll on: > > This view alone is right and true. > > > > 'And whilst the deeds and their results > > Roll on, based on conditions all, > > There no beginning can be seen, > > Just as it is with seed and tree.' " (Vis.M. XIX) > > =============== > > J: Thanks, nice quote. I particularly noted: > "And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using > merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any > action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the > karma-results at their arising. > > Both the 'action' and its 'doer' are conventional concepts. > > Jon > ================================== Dear Jon do you also say 'deeds' in the above expression has only a conventional meaning? robert #107969 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:22 am Subject: Re: More dhammas rolling on.... mikenz66 Hi Sarah, Have a good trip... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > Just dhammas rolling on. By rolling on, Mike, we mean just arising and falling away.... OK, in that case I'll mentally translate "rolling" into "rising and falling" in future, so as not to confuse myself... :) Mike #107970 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: daily activities in satipatthana jonoabb Hi Howard (107967) > J: I don't see it that way. One can never know from which person and it > what circumstances one will hear a snippet of Dhamma explained in a way that > helps one's understanding along. > ------------------------------------------------- > But of course one can gain from it! Who would doubt that? But that is > irrelevant to the matter of conventionality. > =============== J: The relevance is that there is no knowing in advance when or under what circumstances associating with the right person will happen. It could be face-to-face or it could be indirect such as over the internet or even by reading a book. It could be a remark made at a social gathering. To my understanding, if one hears a snippet of Dhamma explained in a way that helps one's understanding, or that reminds one of the importance of mindfulness of a presently arising dhamma, then one is at that moment both associating with the right person and hearing the true dhamma. Like everything else, association with the right person comes down to an identifiable dhamma or set of dhammas. > =============== > No, Jon. Hearing is consciousness of sound, period. But when one > speaks of "hearing the true Dhamma," there must be grasping of ideas. As regards > the meaning of that phrase, the mind door is essentially involved. The > phrase is not literal. (The Dhamma is not sound.) > =============== J: Yes, I agree with you that "hearing the true dhamma" means both the hearing of sound (or the seeing of visible object) and understanding the language being spoken (or written). But this doesn't require "purposeful and strongly directed paying of attention". There can be hearing and understanding of meaning without any deliberate focussing of attention. > =============== > Hearing the dhamma -- that is to say, hearing the teaching explained in a > way that is appropriate for the hearer -- is something that happens (or > doesn't) because of previous kamma. > -------------------------------------------------- > Who says "no"? > =============== J: I'm glad you agree ;-)). See my comments above regarding "association with the right person" and "hearing the true dhamma" as being other than purposeful, directed activities. > =============== > So here again no purposeful activity is required. > ------------------------------------------------------ > I disagree. There is subliminal will involved, spurred in this case > mainly by having learned Dhamma and having interest in it. > =============== J: I'm fine with your "subliminal will spurred by an interest in the Dhamma". To me that can be characterised as "no purposeful activity". There is no conscious effort being put into the reflecting; it's going on subliminally. Perhaps you'd like to withdraw your "disagree" on this point. ;-)) Jon #107971 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:44 pm Subject: Re: daily activities in satipatthana jonoabb Hi Robert (107698) > > J: Thanks, nice quote. I particularly noted: > > "And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using > > merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any > > action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the > > karma-results at their arising. > > > > Both the 'action' and its 'doer' are conventional concepts. > > > > Jon > > ================================== > Dear Jon > do you also say 'deeds' in the above expression has only a conventional meaning? > robert > =============== J: I've not said that anything in the passage has only a conventional meaning. I've said that certain terms are to be understood as being conventional terms (rather than dhammas). However, such conventional terms may, and generally do, allude ultimately to particular dhammas. As regards "deed", I would see this as a reference to javana citta (or the cetana accompanying javana citta). Hence, there could be no 'doer' of the "deed". (I imagine this is much as you would see it too.) Jon #107972 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: daily activities in satipatthana upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - Only a couple new comments of mine below. In a message dated 6/10/2010 9:44:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107967) > J: I don't see it that way. One can never know from which person and it > what circumstances one will hear a snippet of Dhamma explained in a way that > helps one's understanding along. > ------------------------------------------------- > But of course one can gain from it! Who would doubt that? But that is > irrelevant to the matter of conventionality. > =============== J: The relevance is that there is no knowing in advance when or under what circumstances associating with the right person will happen. It could be face-to-face or it could be indirect such as over the internet or even by reading a book. It could be a remark made at a social gathering. To my understanding, if one hears a snippet of Dhamma explained in a way that helps one's understanding, or that reminds one of the importance of mindfulness of a presently arising dhamma, then one is at that moment both associating with the right person and hearing the true dhamma. Like everything else, association with the right person comes down to an identifiable dhamma or set of dhammas. --------------------------------------------------------- The fact that you speak of a set of dhammas puts us much closer. ---------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > No, Jon. Hearing is consciousness of sound, period. But when one > speaks of "hearing the true Dhamma," there must be grasping of ideas. As regards > the meaning of that phrase, the mind door is essentially involved. The > phrase is not literal. (The Dhamma is not sound.) > =============== J: Yes, I agree with you that "hearing the true dhamma" means both the hearing of sound (or the seeing of visible object) and understanding the language being spoken (or written). But this doesn't require "purposeful and strongly directed paying of attention". There can be hearing and understanding of meaning without any deliberate focussing of attention. ------------------------------------------------------ Maybe you are putting more into "deliberate focusing" than I am. ------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > Hearing the dhamma -- that is to say, hearing the teaching explained in a > way that is appropriate for the hearer -- is something that happens (or > doesn't) because of previous kamma. > -------------------------------------------------- > Who says "no"? > =============== J: I'm glad you agree ;-)). See my comments above regarding "association with the right person" and "hearing the true dhamma" as being other than purposeful, directed activities. --------------------------------------------------- Kamma is intention and intentional action. That is all I am speaking of. (But that is a lot.) -------------------------------------------------- > =============== > So here again no purposeful activity is required. > ------------------------------------------------------ > I disagree. There is subliminal will involved, spurred in this case > mainly by having learned Dhamma and having interest in it. > =============== J: I'm fine with your "subliminal will spurred by an interest in the Dhamma". To me that can be characterised as "no purposeful activity". There is no conscious effort being put into the reflecting; it's going on subliminally. -------------------------------------------------- Mostly subliminal, sometimes coming to the surface. Intention is intention, and that is all I am speaking of. From desire comes will and from will comes willed activity. That is kamma - it's genesis and it's execution. Mostly it operates subliminally but still with desire and sense of self as it's basis. ----------------------------------------------- Perhaps you'd like to withdraw your "disagree" on this point. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure how close or far we are from each other, but I suspect not very far. -------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107973 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:32 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.5-6 nichiconn ==dn33 6.5 A.t.thakathaa: Vedanaachakkampi eteneva nayena veditabba.m. 5) Cha vedanaakaayaa - cakkhusamphassajaa vedanaa, sotasamphassajaa vedanaa, ghaanasamphassajaa vedanaa, jivhaasamphassajaa vedanaa, kaayasamphassajaa vedanaa, manosamphassajaa vedanaa. Walshe Six groups of feeling (vedanaa-kaayaa): feeling based on eye-contact (cakkhu-samphassajaa vedanaa), [iii 244] on ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-contact. Olds Six bodies of sense experience: Eye-contact sense experience, ...etc. ..., mind-contact sense experience. RD Six groups of feeling on occasion of sensory stimulus, to wit, the feeling that is excited when we see, hear, etc. or when we think. ==dn33 6.6 A.t.thakathaa: Ruupasa~n~naati ruupa.m aaramma.na.m katvaa uppannaa sa~n~naa. Etenupaayena sesaapi veditabbaa. 6) Cha sa~n~naakaayaa - ruupasa~n~naa, saddasa~n~naa, gandhasa~n~naa, rasasa~n~naa, pho.t.thabbasa~n~naa, dhammasa~n~naa. RD [ 6.6] Six groups of perceptions, to wit, perception on occasion of sensory stimulus, or of ideas*. *dhamma-sa~n~naa. Walshe, mind-objects. Olds, mental objects. ...to be continued, connie #107974 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:33 pm Subject: Re: Difference between conventional and unconventional actions truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, > J: The everyday use of "I" is not necessarily indicative of the >presence of self-view. Self-view is the taking of dhammas for self >in the sense of being subject to control or mastery. The expression >"I" and other labels are conventions, and useful ones at that. > Same could be said about proper meditation. >J: The idea that kusala can be made or induced to arise by >undertaking a certain form of "practice" would be an example of >taking dhammas for self in the sense of being subject to control or >mastery (see above), and thus wrong view. What about studying and considering Dhamma? Is it also a wrong activity? If so, why read any Dhamma books or participate in Dhamma discussions? BTW, while studying and considering may involve thinking. In proper meditation one studies and considers the Dhamma experientially and non-verbally without trying to control anything. With metta, Alex #107975 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:48 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, > J: OK, so to your understanding of the teachings, some people with >zero exposure to the teachings in previous lifetimes (but not >others) are capable of becoming enlightened within the same lifetime >as first hearing the teachings (I hope I've understood you >correctly). Right, except that these people may have had some mundane right views and some good qualities that are common to religions or basic human beliefs. >In that case I'd be interested to know what factors, in your >understanding, would determine whether a person is/becomes a person >who is capable of enlightenment within the same lifetime as first >hearing the teachings. Has sufficient good kamma that one can encounter the teaching and be able to study and practice it. Has sufficient mundane understanding that can be common with non-Buddhist religions, to understand the value of Dhamma. >Also, among the 'others' who need to hear the teachings in previous >lifetimes first, what determines when such a person reaches the >stage where he/she is capable of enlightenment within a single >lifetime? > > > =============== > > Buddha Dhamma wouldn't be akaliko and sanditthiko if it took a LOT of time... > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, the terms 'sanditthiko' and 'akaaliko' used >by the Buddha to describe the teaching have nothing to do with how >long it takes to attain enlightenment. Then what does it mean in your opinion? >J: Yes, you've made these observations before. Why are you so keen >to support the view that enlightenment can be attained within a >single lifetime? Because they fit the suttas and who wants to be in samsara longer than neccesary? With metta, Alex #107976 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:17 pm Subject: Interesting sutta with an interesting simile about effort truth_aerator Hello all, "Suppose, bhikkhus, a man was being borne along by the current of a river that seemed pleasant and agreeable. But upon seeing him, a keen-sighted man standing on the bank would call out to him: 'Hey, good man! Although you are being borne along by the current of a river that seems pleasant and agreeable, lower down there is a pool with turbulent waves and swirling eddies, with monsters and demons. On reaching that pool you will die or suffer close to death.' Then, bhikkhus, upon hearing the words of that person, that man would struggle against the current with hands and feet. "I have made use of this simile, bhikkhus, to illustrate the meaning. And this is the meaning here: 'The current of the river' is a synonym for craving. 'Seeming pleasant and agreeable' is a synonym for the six internal sense-bases. 'The pool lower down' is a synonym for the five lower fetters. 'Turbulent waves' is a synonym for anger and frustration. 'Swirling eddies' is a synonym for the five strands of sensual pleasure. 'Monsters and demons' is a synonym for womenfolk. 'Against the current' is a synonym for renunciation. 'Struggling with hands and feet' is a synonym for instigating energy. 'The keen-sighted man standing on the bank' is a synonym for the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.4.106-112x.irel.html#iti-109 An interesting thing: Note that the path is going against the stream. Well directed and strong Effort is required to go against the current, struggling with hands and feet. With metta, Alex #107977 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Interesting sutta with an interesting simile about effort upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/10/2010 1:18:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: 'Monsters and demons' is a synonym for womenfolk. ============================= Report being sent to the National Organization for Women! ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107979 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Interesting sutta with an interesting simile about effort truth_aerator Hi Howard, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 6/10/2010 1:18:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > 'Monsters and demons' is a synonym for womenfolk. > ============================= > Report being sent to the National Organization for Women! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard Аnd only men can be King of Death... "It is impossible that a woman should be the King of Death. It is possible that a man should be the King of Death. " http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/115-bahudhatuk\ a-e.html With metta, Alex #107980 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:03 am Subject: Re: Interesting sutta with an interesting simile about effort kenhowardau Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello all, <. . .> > "I have made use of this simile, bhikkhus, to illustrate the meaning. And this is the meaning here: 'The current of the river' is a synonym for craving. <. . .> 'Struggling with hands and feet' is a synonym for instigating energy. <. . .>" > > > An interesting thing: Note that the path is going against the stream. Well directed and strong Effort is required to go against the current, struggling with hands and feet. ------------------------------ Note that "stream" is a synonym for craving, which is the momentary mental phenomenon, lobha. "Struggling with hands and feet" is a synonym for effort, which is the momentary mental phenomon, viriya. Therefore, we can see that the reality described by the Buddha was just these conditioned dhammas; there was really no person in a stream, no stream, and no struggling with hands and feet. Strange, isn't it? :-) Ken H #107981 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:42 am Subject: akusala dhammas can be objects of insight as effective as kusala dhammas? truth_aerator Hello all, I am reading The Survey. "All kinds of n?ma and r?pa can be object of understanding, no matter whether they are kusala dhammas or akusala dhammas, no matter of what degree of kusala or akusala they are or through which doorway they appear." - pg 192 pdf Are kusala dhammas as objects of understanding better than akusala dhammas as objects of understanding? Can one progress as quick when being aware of akusala namas arising vs being aware of kusala namas that are arising? With metta, Alex #107982 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:10 pm Subject: Sense Desire can Never be Satiated! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: No Sensing can ever be Satiated! The Blessed Buddha once said: The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body & the mind, Bhikkhus, is an ocean of attractive stimuli for any uninstructed ordinary person... Its streams are forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and mental states, that all are seductive, gorgeous, alluring, agreeable, pleasing, enticing, tempting and tantalizing.... Here this entire world and its devas, its maras, and brahmas, this generation with its recluses & priests, its kings and all normal people, almost all are sunken and submerged, being like an entangled and knotted coil of thread, like intertwined weeds, who all are unable to pass beyond this dimension of misery, these painful destinations, these lower worlds, this ocean of Suffering by repeated death ever again, this Samsara! One who withstands that mighty and strapping current consisting of forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and mental states is said to have crossed this sensual ocean of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind, with its great waves, whirlpools, terrifying sharks, and demons! Crossed over, gone all beyond, such a Hero now stands safe on high ground... Having extinguished all attraction, aversion and blinded ignorance, one has crossed this ocean so hard to cross with its dangers of terrifying sharks, scary whirlpools, waves and a vast variety of creepy demons... Such a chain-breaking death-forsaker, elevated all without accumulations, has eliminated all Suffering by leaving all behind any renewed existence... Transcended, he cannot ever be defined, measured or even recognized! I tell you, Bhikkhus: He has confused even the King of Death... The Ocean of Stimuli overcomes and drowns all beings! <...> Source (extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [157-8] Section 35 Salayatana: On The 6 Senses. The Ocean: Samudda 228-9. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #107983 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala dhammas can be objects of insight as effective as kusala dhammas? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Fri, 11/6/10, truth_aerator wrote: >I am reading The Survey. .... S: Great! Appreciating your interest in the Abhi and all your recent Qus. .... >"All kinds of n?ma and r?pa can be object of understanding, no matter whether they are kusala dhammas or akusala dhammas, no matter of what degree of kusala or akusala they are or through which doorway they appear." - pg 192 pdf >Are kusala dhammas as objects of understanding better than akusala dhammas as objects of understanding? .... S: No. Any dhamma at all - all mere dhatus, elements. Right understanding is all about developing detachment, not attachment. Whether a jhana citta or extreme dosa - mere conditioned, impermanent dhammas. .... >Can one progress as quick when being aware of akusala namas arising vs being aware of kusala namas that are arising? ... S: Right understanding isn't concerned with quick progress or any kind of selection - it just understands what appears at this moment for what it is. Whether kusala or akusala - equally impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Detachment with understanding is the way to liberation. Concerns about progress and having this or that kind of dhamma arise is not. Metta Sarah ====== #107984 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:51 am Subject: Re: daily activities in satipatthana rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert > > (107698) > > > J: Thanks, nice quote. I particularly noted: > > > "And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using > > > merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any > > > action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the > > > karma-results at their arising. > > > > > > Both the 'action' and its 'doer' are conventional concepts. > > > > > > Jon > > > ================================== > > Dear Jon > > do you also say 'deeds' in the above expression has only a conventional meaning? > > robert > > =============== > > J: I've not said that anything in the passage has only a conventional meaning. I've said that certain terms are to be understood as being conventional terms (rather than dhammas). However, such conventional terms may, and generally do, allude ultimately to particular dhammas. > > As regards "deed", I would see this as a reference to javana citta (or the cetana accompanying javana citta). Hence, there could be no 'doer' of the "deed". (I imagine this is much as you would see it too.) > > Jon dear Jon yes of course I thought deed was a reference to cetana. But what I am confused about is why you wrote that in reference to this phrase: " he clearly understands that the wise ones are using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the karma-results at their arising" you group action and doer together as being "conventional concepts" : I had always thought that it was doer and receiver that were being referred to as mere concepts and that "action" and kamma-result were referring to ultimate realities. robert #107985 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More dhammas rolling on.... sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Wed, 9/6/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N:I enjoyed reading your story. We never know what will happen. We wanted to take a break for a few days, but now Lodewijk does not feel well enough to drive. He is sleeping now. ... S: Wish Lodewijk well from us. Maybe a break with some kusala cittas now as we reflect on the Dhamma... ... >Alan said that Conditions will be ready at the printers in two weeks and what is your postal address, so that we ask Alan to send you a packedge. ... S: Great news! Address after sign-off - a lovely flat-warming gift! ... >If anyone is interested let me know off line. I received Khun Bong's book (in Thai) and will see what I can translate and post here. ... S: That'll be great too. She was a very inspiring and colourful friend with deep confidence in the Dhamma.....listening to dhamma discussions on her death-bed too... Metta Sarah add in Sydney: 25/69 North Steyne Manly, NSW AUSTRALIA 2095 ================ #107986 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More dhammas rolling on.... sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ken O, Scott, Connie and all who've been patiently waiting... --- On Wed, 9/6/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Looking forward to your uploaded discussions, ... S: Uploaded!! Find under this heading: "Bangkok June and July 2007" After India 05. For others, these are recently edited discussions with A.Sujin that can be found here: www.dhammastudygroup.org Pls let us know if there are any obvious errors with the uploading or if anyone has difficulty finding them. Alex, I think you may find them interesting too. For those who remember Ven Pannabahulo, this was the occasion when he first met us and A.Sujin too. Good listening! Metta Sarah ====== #107987 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sati or no sati. was: Will, codetermination ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. > N: It is natural to take subtle lobha for sati. Lodewijk also > asks: how can we know when there is sati and when not. Kh Sujin: > when it arises you know. Lodewijk finds this difficult, because when > it does not arise one does not know. It seems like a vicious circle. > Kh Sujin emphasizes right understanding, that is what matters. > Instead of asking: when is there sati, it is best to go on listening > and considering what one hears and reads, discussing, without > wondering too much about the fact whether there is sati or not. It is > beneficial to develop more understanding, no matter what level. Like > this moment now. You have some remarks, and I find these very useful > to discuss. Discussions on this list do help, especially when it is > about the present moment. pt: I think you're right - often the desire to know whether there is mindfulness or not, is itself some sort of lobha. Though I hope that at least occasionally, it can be kusala interest to know about Dhamma for the sake of Dhamma. I mean, it's a topic that seems very interesting. Another problem is that direct experience of mindfulness for example (which happens rarely, if at all) is confused with a conceptual analysis of the "present state of mind". I fall into that very often - trying to analyse my present mind-state, which of course by default means that there's no direct experience happening in the first place - only more thinking. Still, I can't help but wonder - equanimity, calm, mindfulness, concentration, etc - I find their descriptions in texts very similar, so it's hard to make sense of their differences in real-life. That reminds me, recently Han mentioned a definition of sati, which I think comes from Visuddhimagga: "Sati has the characteristic of not wobbling, i.e., not floating away from the object (apilaapana lakkha.naa). Its function is absence of confusion or non-forgetfulness (asammosarasaa). It is manifested as guardianship (aarakkhapaccupa.t.thaanaa). Its proximate cause is strong perception (thirasa~n~naa pada.t.thaanaa)." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/107544 I was wondering - what does "strong perception" mean? I doubt it's some sort of special focusing or concentration, but I'm not sure what is it? Best wishes #107988 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:40 pm Subject: Re: Buddha forbade teaching on sekha stages to "unwise" (worldlings?). ptaus1 Hi Jon and Alex, > > J: To my understanding, the terms 'sanditthiko' and 'akaaliko' used >by the Buddha to describe the teaching have nothing to do with how >long it takes to attain enlightenment. > > A: Then what does it mean in your opinion? pt: I was wondering about that description recently as well. In the beginning, I found that particular sentence very inspiring in a sense that anyone can immediately start experiencing/verifying the truth for himself as soon as one starts learning about the Dhamma: "This Dhamma is visible here-&-now, not subject to time, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be known by the wise for themselves." But I've been going through Visuddhimagga recently, and there in chapter VII, that particular sentence is analysed and it seems "the wise" in fact stands for the Noble ones, which means this sentence only applies to them, not to anyone. In particular, see VII,69, 76 and 85. I was just wondering if I'm understanding Visuddhimagga correctly here or not? Best wishes #107989 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:51 pm Subject: akusala dhamma vs kusala dhamma for awareness truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Fri, 11/6/10, truth_aerator wrote: > >I am reading The Survey. > .... > S: Great! Appreciating your interest in the Abhi and all your recent Qus. > .... > > >"All kinds of n?ma and r?pa can be object of understanding, no matter whether they are kusala dhammas or akusala dhammas, no matter of what degree of kusala or akusala they are or through which doorway they appear." - pg 192 pdf > > >Are kusala dhammas as objects of understanding better than akusala dhammas as objects of understanding? > .... > S: No. Any dhamma at all - all mere dhatus, elements. Right understanding is all about developing detachment, not attachment. Whether a jhana citta or extreme dosa - mere conditioned, impermanent dhammas. > .... > >Can one progress as quick when being aware of akusala namas arising vs being aware of kusala namas that are arising? > ... > S: Right understanding isn't concerned with quick progress or any kind of selection - it just understands what appears at this moment for what it is. Whether kusala or akusala - equally impermanent, dukkha and anatta. > > Detachment with understanding is the way to liberation. Concerns about progress and having this or that kind of dhamma arise is not. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > Thank you for your reply. However it almost appears that you are advocating "everything goes" where physical renunciation, seclusion, sense restraint, moderation in eating (for example) are not-needed. But the suttas is full of passages about the importance of physical seclusion, sense restraint (just look what satipatthana comy says about Nanda), moderation in eating, giving up sense pleasures (TV would be included), etc etc. With metta, Alex #107990 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More dhammas rolling on.... sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- On Thu, 10/6/10, Mike wrote: >Hi Sarah, Have a good trip... .... S: Perhaps we'll get to meet, as we'll be neighbours of a kind... Perhaps, a dhamma discussion weekend in Manly..... .... >>S: Just dhammas rolling on. By rolling on, Mike, we mean just arising and falling away.... >M: OK, in that case I'll mentally translate "rolling" into "rising and falling" in future, so as not to confuse myself... :) .... S: Yes, a little Dhamma gymnastics can be helpful at times :) Thx for your patience with us all. Sarah ========= #107991 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala dhamma vs kusala dhamma for awareness sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Fri, 11/6/10, truth_aerator wrote: >> S: Right understanding isn't concerned with quick progress or any kind of selection - it just understands what appears at this moment for what it is. Whether kusala or akusala - equally impermanent, dukkha and anatta. > > Detachment with understanding is the way to liberation. Concerns about progress and having this or that kind of dhamma arise is not. ... A:> Thank you for your reply. However it almost appears that you are advocating "everything goes" where physical renunciation, seclusion, sense restraint, moderation in eating (for example) are not-needed. .... S: "Everything goes" according to conditions. No one can make it otherwise. When there is understanding with detachment, there is the kind of renunciation, seclusion and so on which the Buddha advocated. Everyone knows about physical seclusion, but the Buddha pointed to mental seclusion with understanding. .... >But the suttas is full of passages about the importance of physical seclusion, sense restraint (just look what satipatthana comy says about Nanda), moderation in eating, giving up sense pleasures (TV would be included), etc etc. ... S: The suttas are full of passages which stress the importance of sati-sampajanna, awareness and right understanding whilst in physical seclusion or in any other place, pursuing one's normal daily life. Satipatthana leads to sense restraint through understanding dhammas for what they are. Moving the TV to another room will not eliminate sense attachment. There can be just as much sense attachment (and grief and ignorance) whilst sitting in a prison cell. It's all about detachment from what is conditioned now - not about trying to have detachment or trying to give up sense pleasures out of a desire for particular results or changes in one's tendencies. Metta Sarah p.s For those trying to listen to the new audio, I had trouble getting it to open just now - we'll check it again tomorrow when we have more time. ======= #107992 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:18 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.7 nichiconn Dear Friends, dn33 6.7 A.t.thakathaa: Cetanaachakkepi eseva nayo. 7) Cha sa~ncetanaakaayaa - ruupasa~ncetanaa, saddasa~ncetanaa, gandhasa~ncetanaa, rasasa~ncetanaa, pho.t.thabbasa~ncetanaa, dhammasa~ncetanaa. Walshe Six groups of volition (sa~ncetanaa-kaayaa): volition based on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, mind-objects. Olds Six bodies of intent: Intent with regard to material forms, ... etc. SUB CY Mahaanidaana, p.70: "...Ignorance is the structuring factor for volitional formations as their arising, occurrence, sign, accumulation, conjunct, impediment, origin, cause, and condition. Through these nine modes ignorance is the condition and the volitional formations are conditionally arisen," etc. (P.ts.i,50) Therein, "nine modes" are the nine modes of exercising the conditioning nature. "Arising": that from which the effect arises, the cause for the arising of the effect. Volitional formations arise when there is ignorance, not when ignorance is absent; thus ignorance is a condition for volitional formations as their arising. Similarly, volitional formations occur and are guided when there is ignorance, (thus ignorance is the cause for their occurrence and their sign). Ignorance is the condition for the way they throw beings into the realms of existence and for the way they accumulate for the arising of their effect, (thus ignorance is an accumulation). It is a condition for the way they connect and join together with their own effect, (thus it is a conjunct), and for the way they impede the mental continuum in which they have arisen, (thus it is an impediment). They originate, arise, in the encounter with other conditinos, (thus ignorance is their origin). It sends forth volitional formations and becomes the reason for them, (thus ignorance is their cause). The volitional formations come forth and occur in dependence upon ignorance, (thus ignorance is their condition). Thus these nine modes should be understood as the distinct ways ignorance exercises a causative nature in relation to the volitional formations. The same method should be applied to the volitional formations, etc. as the arising, etc. for consciousness, etc. The "structuring factor" (.thiti) is the cause. ...to be continued, connie #107993 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:20 pm Subject: Can Arahat Cry? truth_aerator Hello all, In CMA there is "hasituppada-citta" , the citta responsible for smiling. Where is the citta responsible for crying? If an Arahant can smile, why can't an Arahant cry? One may correctly say that an arahant doesn't experience aversion, but an Arahant doesn't experience lobha or dosa that can cause one to smile either. Smiling, depending on exact type and timing, can both be expression of lobha or dosa (as in smiling in contempt. Look at him! He is in hell!) With metta, Alex #107994 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Can Arahat Cry? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/11/2010 1:22:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello all, In CMA there is "hasituppada-citta" , the citta responsible for smiling. Where is the citta responsible for crying? If an Arahant can smile, why can't an Arahant cry? One may correctly say that an arahant doesn't experience aversion, but an Arahant doesn't experience lobha or dosa that can cause one to smile either. Smiling, depending on exact type and timing, can both be expression of lobha or dosa (as in smiling in contempt. Look at him! He is in hell!) ----------------------------------------------- There is also smiling as an expression of peace/equanimity, and there is smiling as an expression of metta and of karuna. These, I presume, are the basis of an arahant's smile. An arahant can, I presume, also assume a stern look, but that would be done for teaching/communication purposes. As regards crying, the tear ducts can produce tears for many reasons, physical and mental, some of which, perhaps including compassion, can appear to indicate grief but do not in an arahant and for some others as well, and in that case should not be regarded as crying. ---------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =============================== With metta, Howard P. S. Can an arahant laugh? And why should we care one way or the other? I suspect that an arahant can laugh with "bubbling joy," but if not, then not. Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107995 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Can Arahat Cry? truth_aerator > ----------------------------------------------- > There is also smiling as an expression of peace/equanimity, and there > is smiling as an expression of metta and of karuna. These, I presume, are > the basis of an arahant's smile. An arahant can, I presume, also assume a > stern look, but that would be done for teaching/communication purposes. > As regards crying, the tear ducts can produce tears for many reasons, > physical and mental, some of which, perhaps including compassion, can > appear to indicate grief but do not in an arahant and for some others as well, > and in that case should not be regarded as crying. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > With metta, > > Alex > > =============================== > With metta, > Howard > > P. S. Can an arahant laugh? And why should we care one way or the other? I > suspect that an arahant can laugh with "bubbling joy," but if not, then > not. Good answer, Howard. Though I wonder why there is special smiling citta for an Arahant if it is just a bodily expression (kaya-vinnatti?) of something like metta, or karuna. With metta, Alex #107996 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:18 pm Subject: Signless concentration, Mundane or supramundane? truth_aerator Hello all, Is signless concentration (animitta cetosamadhi) mundane or supramundane? With metta, Alex #107997 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:43 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.1-2 nichiconn Dear Friends, RD: [6.1] Six fields of personal experience, to wit, sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and mind. (Cha ajjhattikaaniaayatanaani - cakkhaayatana.m, sotaayatana.m, ghaanaayatana.m, jivhaayatana.m, kaayaayatana.m, manaayatana.m.) N: Translation is not correct. The inner aayatanas are the ruupas that are: eyesense, earsense, smellingsense, tastingsense, bodysense. The sixth is manaayatana, including all cittas. c reading ~Naa.namoli's appendix, Illustrator: Discussions of Certain Terms and their Renderings, {skip 1st para: !! Skipping more, these include:} . Khandha / Category . ruupa / form . naamaruupa, the bare-perceived: recognition (naama) cum recognized (ruupa) . sankhaaraa / determinations . (a)sankhata / (un)determined ===> dhamma. gerundive of dharati (to bear, to remember) and dhati (to put). ===> aayatana <> c: I like that 'presence to', but think 'perpendicular' only if it ends there, otherwise, guess i'm still partial to 'sphere (of influence)' or maybe point of tangence: "i me mine" -- Beatles, lyrics @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gie_2GRMX9I ; below, a more graphic 'descent of consciousness' version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46vk716HMtA peace, connie #107998 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:12 am Subject: uploaded audio discussions from Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The recently completed edited discussions from Bangkok seem fine now. To listen, go to: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Scroll down to (or use the link to) the audio section and then scroll down to: Bangkok June & July 2007 Pls share any comments you find helpful/disagree with/wish to discuss. Nina, this afternoon I had another lovely tea and chat with Jessica. We didn't have so much time but chatted about the value of understanding the Dhamma in daily life, whether studying Pali in Myanmar, helping friends in Hong Kong or under the stress of moving house! We discussed motives for ordaining and how the practice is always at this moment regardless. What else? We chatted about friends of hers who become depressed or agitated, anxious to reach nibbana, to escape suffering, not realising it's all self-lobha at work. Sukin and Azita, Jessica may be able to join us in Bangkok from around 20th August. If anyone else might be there, pls let us know. Metta Sarah ====== #107999 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:25 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 323, 6.8 nichiconn Dear Friends, dn33 6.8 A.t.thakathaa: Tathaa ta.nhaachakke. .Tiikaa: Ta.nhaachakke ta.nha.m aarabbha pavattaapi ta.nhaa dhammata.nhaati veditabbaa. Sutta 6.8) Cha ta.nhaakaayaa - ruupata.nhaa, saddata.nhaa, gandhata.nhaa, rasata.nhaa, pho.t.thabbata.nhaa, dhammata.nhaa. RD: Six craving-groups, to wit, the five kinds of sense-objects, and phenomena. Book of Analysis 914. Therein what are 'three defilements'? The defilement of desire, the defilement of becoming, the defilement of ignorance. Therein what is the defilement of desire? That which in connection with desire is wish for sense pleasure, lust for sense pleasure, passion for sense pleasure, craving for sense pleasure, fondness for sense pleasure, fevering for sense pleasure, yearning for sense pleasure, clinging to sense pleasure. This is called the defilement of desire. ...to be continued, connie