#110201 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:44 pm Subject: Re: dry insight. truth_aerator Hello RobertE, KenH, all, I've read a number of posts on RobK's forum. Look, the only thing that I can see to minimize Jhana are 1) If one has developed them in the previous lives and doesn't need to do them now, but fulfill other factors of the path. 2) It may be possible that for some people the 8th factor of N8P happens for a fingersnap near or at the moment of awakening. So it may not qualify as "sitting the forest in jhana for hours and hours". However it seems to me that for people who are less than gifted, FULL path and not the minimum is required. For the infamous susima sutta: If it is read on its own, all it says was that those Arhats did not have IMMATERIAL states and super powers. They didn't reject Jhana. And even if they did, who knows if jhana was attained by them in previous lives and they had to focus more on other parts of the path. Whenever teaching becomes popular, the pressure born of popularity and kilesas can make teachers accomodate more and more people with their weaknesses. There can be a tendency to "lower the bar" and to "eat your cake and have it also". Teachings that tell what other people want to hear are well received, and there is definitely a pressure to take things easy. Some say that mindfulness and entire path is nothing more than "mindfulness in the moment" where everything, everything goes. Or that awakening is some non-dual states which rejects the distinctions. The teachings on easy path may sound nice until one may realize that they don't push one higher and higher, they don't lead to the ultimate goal. Unfortunately such realization can come too late.... IMHO it makes more sense to "raise the bar" and try one's best, rather than to try finding some obscure and rare passages to interpret as justifying the easy path. Some say that today we have lots of defilements. This may be true. But what it means is that we need MORE and Harder path, not less. Those who are 99% ready, can attain "arahantship while cooking", as Phil has said. Some have reached maggaphala while listening to a sutta. Have we? Why not? Perhaps because that applies to those great people, and not for us. In fact it can be dangerous for us (cause us to sink in mire of sensuality). "Arahantship while cooking" can sound very affirming and nice. Many people (me included) would love to have it that easy. But is it enough, FOR US? We have been in samsara for A LONG TIME. The akusala accumulations are VERY strong. SO strong that if one doesn't put extraordinary effort, one is bound to backtrack and be swept alone the rushing Tsunami of defilements. IMHO. With metta, Alex #110202 From: A T Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:28 pm Subject: Anapanasati alone can be the entire Buddhist path to Arhatship truth_aerator Dear all, Rereading the suttas and Ptsm I realized again the importance of Mindfulness of in-out breathing a-na-pa-nasati: 1) Develops 4 satipat.t.ha-na 2) Develops 7 factors of awakening 3) culminates in Arhatship MN118 4) Purification of morality (si-lavisuddhi), purification of mind (cittavisuddhi), and ... is purification of view (dit.t.hivisuddhi) 5) Is training in higher virtue (adhisi-lasikkha-), higher mind (adhicittasikkha-), and higher Wisdom (adhipañña-sikkha-). - Ptsm 1.194 6) Leads to destruction of taints and other good things: "So if a monk should wish: 'May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging/sustenance, be released from fermentations,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May my memories & resolves related to the household life be abandoned,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I remain percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I remain percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I remain percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I remain percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I — in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not — cutting myself off from both — remain equanimous, mindful, & alert,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. [Also 4 jha-na, 4 arupa, cessation of perception & feelings, can be reached through a-na-pa-nasati] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html 246. In-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths] are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; they are Purification of Cognizance in the sense of non-distraction; they are Purification of View in the sense of seeing. The meaning of restraint therein is training in the Higher Virtue; the meaning of non-distraction therein is training in the Higher Cognizance; the meaning of seeing therein is training in the Higher Understanding. - Ptsm III [TREATISE ON BREATHING] So really, one doesn't need to focus on anything more that FULLY developing mindfulness of breathing! Entire Dhamma that leads to Arhatship and wisdom can be accomplished by properly done a-na-pa-nasati. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.013.than.html Ptsm III [TREATISE ON BREATHING] With metta, Alex #110203 From: Sukinderpal Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 1. sukinderpal Hi Sarah, all, As you can see, I am more behind than I have ever been. This one is exactly one month ago!:-/ ========= > > 4. Other teachings stress metta and philosophies may seem "close to > theoretical understanding of non-self". However, metta is one thing, > but as long as there isn't an understanding of realities, we cannot > say other teachings/philosophies are close at all to an understanding > of non-self . Sukin gave an example of encouraging the understanding > of kamma and vipaka amongst Sikhs, but they cannot understand kamma > and vipaka while it's still "them". It's no use, just "he" or "she" > involved in cause and effect. While there is clinging to self, there > must be ill deeds. When other beliefs are not correct, the good friend > doesn't encourage them at all. > A reminder about the Nama Sutta perhaps? Even when it is about Dhamma where one of the important distinctions to be made is that of reality vs. concepts, we are moved by words all the time. We go along with the vague understandings if not misunderstanding, which can only take us further and further away from the present moment, the only reference point for any real study to occur. Which is why, even when it is about such things as Metta and Karuna, because these in other religions is all about concepts related to 'self', it can't be expected that there will be any real development. And when we try to talk about the value of these to them, so long as they interpret everything in terms of 'atta', then as you say, we are not really helping them. I used to think that many Buddhists, insofar as they have a misunderstanding about the Dhamma, particularly those who think such things as Nibbana being the only reality, that they are essentially no different from believers in God. But I've changed my mind now. I think that belief in 'soul' and 'God' is much more problematic. My intention at the time and even now, was to draw the members of these two Sikh sites away from their fascination with 'worldly knowledge' as got from science for example, to considering instead, the law of cause and effect which is Kamma - Vipaka. After all, they do have the concept 'karma' taught in their religion, in fact not only this, but in Sikhism, the goal as is also in the Dhamma, is ending the cycle of birth and death. Apparently however, although unlike other theist religions, their conception of God is akin to that of Tao, their conception of kamma and everything else that goes on, is as part of the mechanism by which balance is maintained in the cosmos or something. As any Buddhist can see, the above is strange and is in fact very far from any real understanding of what kamma-vipaka is. There are however, some members who question what they perceive to be contradictions inherent in the belief in God. But then, these come from other views about cause and effect and have no inclination to accept kamma-vipaka. So maybe I'll just give up soon and come back to reading DSG more regularly. ;-) ========= > 8. Devas, brahamas and Rahu in the texts – for those that can > experience them! Ask Sukin! > I actually forgot how the discussion went. My own thinking about this is that we question these things based not on panna, by the worldling's perception of things. Take for example the position of science, having its own explanations about such things as the Lunar eclipse which of course is based on concepts that are taken seriously, they question the possibility of such things as Rahu based on the kind of observation they are limited by but do not see as such. Another example is birth (and their objections to the idea of rebirth), science and other conventional studies, have their concepts which they lean upon to explain what all goes on. And in the end, for them it all comes down to all these having a material base. No curiosity and interest ever arises to consider the mentality, what they are and how they come about, or that they might in fact *be* causes which bring about their own particular effects, including as some forms of materiality in many cases! Of course all this is due to wrong view. In reality as we know, birth *is* a vipaka citta, a result of a kamma performed in the past. Had the scientist's curiosity taken him to consider the possibility of consciousness being a cause, then I would think that he'd be inclined to accept kamma and rebirth. And if he did study citta, which of course he'd do it not as a scientist but a Dhamma student, because there is no amazing thing than this , then he'd not question about Rahu as he would otherwise. There is after all, such a thing as divine eye which although he knows himself to not have, he'd not think other people also to not having it and being able then to actually perceive Rahu. ;-) Sorry for being so late in responding. Metta, Sukinder #110204 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:19 pm Subject: Serene Equanimity! bhikkhu5 Friends: Equanimity of the Mind, Serenity & Beyond! The Blessed Buddha once explained: And what, Bhikkhus, is then this simple indifference of the flesh? There are these five strings of sense-pleasure. What five? Visible forms experienceable by the eye ... Hearable sounds experienceable by the ear ... Smellable odours experienceable by the nose ... Tastable flavours experienceable by the tongue ... Touchable objects experienceable by the body ... That all are attractive, captivating, desirable, irresistible, lovely, charming, tempting, pleasing, sensually enticing, seductive, alluring, and tantalizing! These are the 5 strings of sense-pleasure. The indifference that arises from these 5 strings of sense-pleasure, is simply indifference of the flesh... And what, Bhikkhus, is the equanimity, which is not of this world? With the leaving behind of both pleasure and pain, & with the prior fading away of both joy & sorrow, one enters & dwells in the 4th jh ana absorption, which is an entirely stilled mental state of utter awareness, purified by the equanimity of neither-pain-nor-pleasure. This is called the equanimity, which is not of this world! Finally, what is serenity beyond the equanimity, which is not of this world? When a bhikkhu, whose mental fermentations are eliminated, reviews his calmed mind, which is liberated from all lust, freed from all hatred, and released from uncertainty, then there arises a transcendental serenity... This is the serenity beyond that equanimity, which is not of this world! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [235-7] section 36:11 On Feeling: Vedana. Joys beyond this world ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <....> #110205 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:28 am Subject: Re: dry insight. epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > However it seems to me that for people who are less than gifted, FULL path and not the minimum is required. ... > We have been in samsara for A LONG TIME. The akusala accumulations are VERY strong. SO strong that if one doesn't put extraordinary effort, one is bound to backtrack and be swept alone the rushing Tsunami of defilements. I think all that you said in this post is well reasoned and worth attending. Ultimately, awakening *is* about insight, but jhana is "part of the raft." In order to discern realities, there has to be enough calm, concentration and freedom from defilements that one can see clearly and wake up. I don't personally know who can possibly attain awakening without jhana or not, but I do know that the Buddha had them there for a reason, and that is worth taking into account. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110206 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: dry insight. epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > The first step is right understanding of paramattha dhammas. > -------------------------------------------- > Yes, I actually agree with you that this is the first step. > --------------------------------------------- > > The realisation "there is no self" flows from that. I hope this doesn't seem rude, but have you realized this directly? The reason I ask is because you seem to speak with authority about how anatta is realized. Do you know this, or is it your sense of pariyati on the subject? The direct realization "there is no self" is one of the last highest attainments is it not? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110207 From: Cecil Kulatunga Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:15 am Subject: message from Cecil cecilkulatunga Dear Dhammagroup I am writing to inform that due to pressure of work I can no longer be a member of the group. I shall thank you to stop forwarding emails from now on. I thank you for your cooperation and the warm welcome Yours with metta Cecil Kulatunga #110208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta as purely meditation purpose VS dana without metta? nilovg Dear Andrew, I was just thinking about you and on the point of asking you whether your health is O.K. Your questions are very good. Helpful for everybody. Op 24-sep-2010, om 0:40 heeft lawstu_uk het volgende geschreven: > Then, the thought of those children, died of hunger, made me sad. > This reminds me of the article on metta bySujin. I then understand, > the sadness I felt, was no longer metta but an unwholesome mental > state. Am I right? I would really appreciate it if anyone can share > your opinions. ------- N: Being sad is dosa. That is why the Visuddhimagga says that the near enemy of compassion is 'grief based on the homelife', thus, dosa of worldly life. It is really difficult not to confuse compassion and sadness, and only pa~n~naa can do this. Mostly the cittas with compassion and sadness arise closely one after the other. We can be sure that there are more akusala cittas than kusala cittas in our life. ---------- > > A: The second question is a dilemma. I have been pondering if metta > bhavana is restricted to the cushion? By this I mean I only repeat > words 'May I be free from physical and mental sufferings' when I am > 'doing' metta meditation. In daily life, I can develop generous act > based on loving kindness. Yet I can also only 'send' good wishes eg > 'May you be free from hunger' without doing any act of generosity.. ----- N: One cannot meditate on metta and compassion if these are not practised in daily life and one learns what their characteristics are when they appear. Otherwise one says just mere words. ------- > A: Or even worse, I could be thinking 'YOUR hunger is your kamma > and you're the owner of your kamma'. ------ N: This can be considered with kusala citta, it can be true equanimity. Sometimes we cannot help someone else and then, instead of having dosa, we can consider the truth of kamma and vipaaka with right understanding. This is kusala. ------- > > A:Volitional formations can be expressed in terms of body, speech > and mind. > > But what is it that some can practise acts of generosity yet some > cannot? ------ N: This depends on one's former accumulated tendencies. We are so different. Some people are by nature very generous, whereas others are stingy. It is so anattaa. -------- > > A: And what is it that propel the thought of metta to the act of > metta? ------ N: Seeing the value of kusala deeds. Right understanding of realities is above all the condition for all kinds of kusala. One clings less to the importance of self when there is more understanding that we are only conditioned naamas and ruupas. When we cling less to me, me, me, we are more open to help others. We do not mind so much whether we get tired and we find it less important to be comfortable and at leisure, we give in less to laziness. Nina. #110209 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:15 am Subject: Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 ptaus1 Hi RobE, > RE: However, I would guess that as long as the object of that understanding is still a concept, and has not yet been applied to a dhamma, it is not yet and never will be insight proper... > > I can see it sowing the seeds for insight proper however. Perhaps that is what is meant...? pt: I think so too. I think it's basically explained that right conceptual understanding conditions the arising of direct understanding of a dhamma (insight proper) at some later point. > RE: When one has an intellectual object such as "doubt," is that not also an example of a concept? pt: Yes, I think so, but the important bit is not so much that the object is a concept, but as Jon and Nina explained, understanding that doubt intellectually as anatta and "just another dhamma". I think that sort of understanding eventually leads to direct experience of dhammas. > RE: I would think that the only mental objects that would not be concepts would be actual namas. What are namas that can be objects of citta? I find this a bit confusing. How does one perceive them directly? pt: I think in ACMA it's said that there can be six kinds of object at the mind-door - gross rupa, subtle rupa, cetasika, citta, concept and nibbana. Out of those six, all except concepts are dhammas, while only citta and cetasika would be nama dhammas (I think nibbana is also included in nama dhammas, but it's also the only one that's not conditioned). So, for example, a current citta (arising together with panna) can have a citta or a cetasika (like perception, feeling, attention, etc) - that has just fallen away - as the current object. That would be an example of nama dhammas being objects. And there's that bit that this happens by way of navattabba, i.e. this citta/cetasika has just fallen away in the previous mind-door process, and is now experienced "directly" as the object in the following mind-door process by way of navattabba. > RE: I guess if hardness were being perceived and one was aware of the perception of hardness, then the perception of hardness would be a nama. pt: Yes, I think so. > RE: Are there types of thinking that are also legitimate namas -- not about concepts -- and that can be dhammas for citta? pt: I think the function of thinking as such is performed by two nama dhammas in particular - vitaka and vicara, although other cetasikas also take part of course. So, if vitaka or vicara become an object of citta, then that would be a "legitimate" dhamma as the object I think. > RE: Can citta be the object of citta in the present moment? How would that work? pt: Afaik, that's what the whole navattabba business is about. I.e. the citta in one mind-door process falls away, and in the very next mind-door process, that fallen citta now becomes the object of current cittas in the current mind-door process, and that happens by way of navattabba. Navattabba is something like the spitting image of what has just fallen away - basically it's the experience of the three characteristics (anatta, anicca and dukkha), so it's not a concept yet - which is more like a memory of what has fallen away some time ago. At least, that's how I understand it. But anyway, because one mind-door process follows another so incredibly fast, this experience of what has just fallen away by way of navattabba is still considered a "direct" experience in the present moment. Anyway, that's how much I understand about this. Sarah, Nina and others might be able to clarify more. Best wishes pt #110210 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. ptaus1 Dear Nina and Sarah, Thanks for your additions and comments. Best wishes pt > ------- > N: As I understood, seeing the present object 'as just a reality'. > This a beginning of understanding anattaa. This relates to pariyatti > which, as Jon said, is not academic knowledge. > I just heard on the audio (DSG org), 2007-07, P c: #110211 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 nilovg Dear pt, I think your explanations are very good, I appreciate them. Nina. Op 24-sep-2010, om 11:15 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > But anyway, because one mind-door process follows another so > incredibly fast, this experience of what has just fallen away by > way of navattabba is still considered a "direct" experience in the > present moment. Anyway, that's how much I understand about this. > Sarah, Nina and others might be able to clarify more. #110212 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:37 am Subject: Re: message from Cecil ptaus1 Hi Cecil, If you don't wish to receive all the posts as individual emails, you can edit your membership in such a way so that no posts come to your email. In that way, you will be able to read the posts only on the yahoo group page (so not through your email anymore), but you would still remain a member and would be able to post whenever you want to. To edit your membership in this way: 1. Go to the yahoo group page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages 2. Sign into your account, if you're not already signed in. 3. In the top right corner there should now be an option "Edit Membership" 4. When you click on "Edit Membership" - it will take you to a page where you can select which kind of message delivery you want - in "Step 2: Message delivery" select "Web only" instead of "Individual Email". 5. When you have selected the delivery option you want, then scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on "Save changes" button. If you need some help with this, please let me know. Of course, you can still leave the group if you want to - the button to do that is just next to the "Save changes" button. Best wishes pt > Dear Dhammagroup > I am writing to inform that due to pressure of work I can no longer be a member > of the group. I shall thank you to stop forwarding emails from now on. > I thank you for your cooperation and the warm welcome > Yours with metta > Cecil Kulatunga #110213 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who am I? A correction. nilovg Dear Ari, Op 22-sep-2010, om 18:18 heeft a_true_lotus het volgende geschreven: > So, what's Abhidamma? :-) ------ N: I quote from what I formerly wrote: In the Suttanta, the ``Discourses'', the Dhamma is explained to different people at different places on various occasions. The Buddha taught about all realities appearing through the ``six doors'' of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. He taught about cause and effect and about the practice leading to the end of all sorrow. As regards the Abhidhamma, this is an exposition of all realities in detail. The prefix ``abhi'' is used in the sense of ``preponderance'' or ``distinction''. ``Abhidhamma'' means ``higher dhamma'' or ``dhamma in detail''. The form of this part of the Tipi?aka is different, but the aim is the same: the eradication of wrong view and eventually of all defilements. Thus, when we study the many enumerations of realities, we should not forget the real purpose of our study. The intellectual understanding of realities (pariyatti) should encourage us to the practice (pa.tipatti) which is necessary for the realization of the truth (pa.tivedha). While we are studying the different mental phenomena (n?mas) and physical phenomena (r?pas) and while we are pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of the n?ma and r?pa which appear at that moment. In this way we will discover more and more that the Abhidhamma explains everything which is real, that is, the ``worlds'' appearing through the six doors of the senses and the mind. ------------- We can also use the term Abhidhamma for seeing right now. In fact all realities are Abhidhamma: seeing, hearing attachment generosity. As to Emptiness, su~n~natta, this means empty of the self, anattaa. All realities are ampty of the self, devoid of self. ------- Nina. #110214 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:12 am Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi Arianna > > Well, I don't know your reason for leaving, and maybe it is a good one. Sometimes I also take "internet breaks" where I don't do any internet for a few days to a week. Yes, just addiction to the internet, it aggravates me. People here have been hearing me talk about quitting for years. I stopped drinking with hardly any trouble at all, after 25 years of having a drink or more a day, without fail. But the internet is harder. Also, i tend to get in trouble here and make controversial statements but then fail to stick around to defend them. I think that is a form of wrong speech, and my primary concern as a Buddhist is to avoid performing akusala kamma patha, bad deeds that are of the degree to condition unfavourable rebirth. But on the other hand, discussing Dhamma is a good deed. I'll be back at some point, probably tomorrow! haha. > Anyway, if you are still reading this, I deeply appreciate the time you have taken to answer my posts. Your posts are full of insight. > > See you soon, I hope, Phil :-) Thank you Arianna, have a wonderful time in Hawaii, and carry on with your wonderfully creative inspiration-seeking endeavours! Metta, Phil #110215 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:38 pm Subject: Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: I think in ACMA it's said that there can be six kinds of object at the mind-door - gross rupa, subtle rupa, cetasika, citta, concept and nibbana. Out of those six, all except concepts are dhammas, while only citta and cetasika would be nama dhammas (I think nibbana is also included in nama dhammas, but it's also the only one that's not conditioned). So, for example, a current citta (arising together with panna) can have a citta or a cetasika (like perception, feeling, attention, etc) - that has just fallen away - as the current object. That would be an example of nama dhammas being objects. And there's that bit that this happens by way of navattabba, i.e. this citta/cetasika has just fallen away in the previous mind-door process, and is now experienced "directly" as the object in the following mind-door process by way of navattabba. Thanks for all your explanations in answer to my questions. I thought they were very good and helped my understanding quite a bit. The segment above, and the explanation of navattabba, were particularly helpful to me. Very interesting conversation! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110216 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:00 pm Subject: Re: dry insight. truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Alex. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > However it seems to me that for people who are less than gifted, FULL path and not the minimum is required. > > ... > > > We have been in samsara for A LONG TIME. The akusala accumulations are VERY strong. SO strong that if one doesn't put extraordinary effort, one is bound to backtrack and be swept alone the rushing Tsunami of defilements. > > I think all that you said in this post is well reasoned and worth attending. Ultimately, awakening *is* about insight, but jhana is "part of the raft." In order to discern realities, there has to be enough calm, concentration and freedom from defilements that one can see clearly and wake up. I don't personally know who can possibly attain awakening without jhana or not, but I do know that the Buddha had them there for a reason, and that is worth taking into account. > > Best, > Robert E. You are right. Anyway you look at it, Jhanas form samma-samadhi which is part of N8P. They form part of the path. It is not some rare and obscure passages, but they form part of the path itself. With metta, Alex #110217 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dry insight. truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > The first step is right understanding of paramattha dhammas. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Yes, I actually agree with you that this is the first step. > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > The realisation "there is no self" flows from that. > > I hope this doesn't seem rude, but have you realized this directly? The reason I ask is because you seem to speak with authority about how anatta is realized. Do you know this, or is it your sense of pariyati on the subject? > > The direct realization "there is no self" is one of the last highest attainments is it not? > > Best, > Robert E. Self View is one of first 3 fetter that are removed even at the lowest stage (path to stream entry). The feeling of "I AM" is removed at path of arhatship. With metta, Alex #110218 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Who am I? A correction. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > As to Emptiness, su~n~natta, this means empty of the self, anattaa. > All realities are empty of the self, devoid of self. I think this is implied, but I wanted to add something that I've thought about and still do - that anatta applies both to the subject-pole and the object-pole - in other words, in seeing that the dhamma, the world of the dhamma, is empty, one both understands that it is not of self and does not pertain to self, but also that the dhamma itself has no entity or own-being, that it is merely something that arises. Sometimes we think that the self is real, but maybe the world is not; and sometimes we think that there is no self, but the world at least is real. To see both one's own organism with all its functions as empty of self or entity, and also that the world perceived is equally empty of any real substance, leaves a sense of the entire field of sunnatta through all of samsara. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110219 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:58 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Anyway, if you are still reading this, I deeply appreciate the time you have taken to answer my posts. Your posts are full of insight. > > > > See you soon, I hope, Phil :-) > > Thank you Arianna... Hm...You might keep in mind that you are collecting a lot of positive merit for helping others. If not for yourself, you may want to come back soon to be around as a resource. I would say that more than balances out any outbursts you may be responsible for. :-) [If not - extrapolating to myself - I'm in a lot of trouble...] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110220 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dry insight. epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > The direct realization "there is no self" is one of the last highest attainments is it not? > > > > Best, > > Robert E. > > > Self View is one of first 3 fetter that are removed even at the lowest stage (path to stream entry). > > The feeling of "I AM" is removed at path of arhatship. Thank you, Alex, that is a helpful clarification. Perhaps I can rephrase to say that seeing through the whole sense of self, or full realization of anatta, would take place in the close neighborhood of enlightenment. If I were at the point where I was juggling between letting go of Self View and releasing the feeling of I AM, I'd say I was in a pretty happy place. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110221 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:57 am Subject: Blinking Being! bhikkhu5 Friends: Any conscious moment also dies immediately! Life, personality, pleasure, pain, endures joined in one conscious moment, that flicks by... Whether such ceased clusters of clinging are those of a dead or alive does not matter, they are all alike, momentarily gone never to return... No world is born and appears as manifest, if consciousness is not produced! Only when consciousness is present, does the world emerge! When consciousness momentarily dissolves, the world is dead and vanished! So both the being & the world starts and ends within each conscious moment! Both are reborn millions of times per second! Not only at conventional death.. This is how death also should be recollected, as the shortness of the moment. This is the highest sense this concept of conscious existence ever will allow... (Source: Vism I 238, Nd I 42) Both 'Being' & 'World' occurs only as discrete conscious moments! <....> No being is Static: In the blinking tunnel flows the process of re-becoming! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <....> #110222 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Similes of the five khandhas. glenjohnann Hi Azita (and Nina) Azita, thank you for the explanation - helps me a lot with nimitta. Now that I see it, very like the conversation with K. Sujin that I mentioned. I still have some questions about Sanna - but I will have to ponder a bit to put them into words. Will send them along soon, I hope. Glen and I are both well - Glen has recovered very nicely from the events in June/July and is back to his usual engagement with life. Thanks for inquiring. I trust that you are well too, particularly after a recent stay in Bangkok. With metta Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Asita: as you probably already know, Sanna arises with every citta, including bhavanga citta. It marks every object of citta. > So when visible object is seen by citta, sanna marks that and then following this sense door process, is a mind door process which has that visible object as its object, even tho the actual object has fallen away - this is then nimitta of that object. Now who knows how many mind door processes there are? > > - That particular visible object along with many others that were marked and rememberd by sanna, then becomes the 'big story' that we have about this world of 'color'. So you can imagine how the story gets bigger when added to this are all the others 'worlds' of taste, smell, sound, tactile items. The ocean of concepts!!!! > > > > > > > > #110223 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:01 pm Subject: Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 glenjohnann Hello Pt, Sarah and Jon Very good to have the summaries of your time together recently. Certainly would be nice to be able to take my own ferry over to Manly and join in! Was with friends the other day who were there recently and spoke of it being a lovely place indeed. One of the points made by PT (below) is interesting: -- > 2. Regarding right intellectual understanding which takes concepts as the object of cittas - Jon pointed out that this is not academic knowledge as such. As I understood him, right intellectual understanding actually has to do with relating the present experience to anatta. The more there's such understanding, the closer it gets to actual insight proper. Can any of you talk more about how "right intellectual understanding actually has to do with relating the present experience to anatta". Do you mean relating the present experience to anatta - but doing so intellectually - by knowing on some level (although not by direct experience) that any intellectual understanding is also conditioned and without self/me as holder of that understanding? I am hoping that one of you can expand - Jon appears to have made the comment initially - so, J., anything more you can say? Ann #110224 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:34 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? A correction. kenhowardau Hi Robert E, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Nina. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > As to Emptiness, su~n~natta, this means empty of the self, anattaa. > > All realities are empty of the self, devoid of self. > > I think this is implied, but I wanted to add something that I've thought about and still do - that anatta applies both to the subject-pole and the object-pole - in other words, in seeing that the dhamma, the world of the dhamma, is empty, one both understands that it is not of self and does not pertain to self, but also that the dhamma itself has no entity or own-being, <. . .> ----------------------- This idea first became popular when Nagarjuna declared that *everything* - not just the self - was ultimately non-existent. When you think about it, it is pure weasel-words. Obviously, something exists. We may not know exactly what that "something' is, but no sane person could deny that there is something. Weasel words notwithstanding, Nagarjuna's pseudo-philosophy held great appeal to many Buddhists. Those who were clinging desperately to a belief in self could have their cake and eat it too! They could pay lip service to the Buddha's doctrine of anatta, and still believe that somehow - in some logic-defying way - there really was a self. Ken H #110225 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. glenjohnann Hello Jon, Sarah, Pt and Nina OK - so my question, sent just moments ago (and probably the one above this one in the queue) has been discussed in this post from Nina (below). Perhaps I need to read further in the threads before jumping in with comments / questions! Thanks, Nina, for your additions here and particularly for Khun Sujin's words. It helps. If Jon or Pt have the time, I would nonetheless be interested in an elaboration of your discussion. As I said previously, "right intellectual understanding having to do with relating the present experience to anatta" that interests me. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > I found point 2 interesting and I could add something. > Op 22-sep-2010, om 6:04 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > 2. Regarding right intellectual understanding which takes concepts > > as the object of cittas - Jon pointed out that this is not academic > > knowledge as such. As I understood him, right intellectual > > understanding actually has to do with relating the present > > experience to anatta. The more there's such understanding, the > > closer it gets to actual insight proper. > ------- > N: As I understood, seeing the present object 'as just a reality'. > This a beginning of understanding anattaa. This relates to pariyatti > which, as Jon said, is not academic knowledge. > I just heard on the audio (DSG org), 2007-07, P c: > > right now. It is not the number of cittas and cetasikas. > Jon: What can you say about the reality right now? > S: It is not self, it is conditioned. It cannot appear if it has not > arisen. Since it is real pa~n~naa can penetrate the way it is, not a > 'thing'. > How can there be the understanding of anything without pariyatti. It > does not hurt to know that this moment is not self. It is a > conditioned moment arising and falling away. Just develop clearer > understanding of this reality because it is so true. Do not expect > anything from it, just know it and understand it. That is the way to > penetrate the true nature of reality right now. It can be done when > time comes, it depends on the understanding which is accumulated from > moment to moment. That is the way to have less clinging and less > ignorance. With ignorance one can have a great deal of lobha, dosa > and moha which can motivate bad deeds.> > > -------- > Nina. > > > > > #110226 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: dry insight. kenhowardau Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > The first step is right understanding of paramattha dhammas. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Yes, I actually agree with you that this is the first step. > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > The realisation "there is no self" flows from that. > > I hope this doesn't seem rude, but have you realized this directly? <. . .> -------- It doesn't seem rude so much as naive. Only an ariyan - or someone on the verge of becoming an ariyan - has direct knowledge of anatta. ---------------- RE: > The reason I ask is because you seem to speak with authority about how anatta is realized. Do you know this, or is it your sense of pariyati on the subject? ----------------- I suppose anyone, who espouses views contrary to our own, can sound like a pompous twit. :-) -------------------------- RE: > The direct realization "there is no self" is one of the last highest attainments is it not? -------------------------- Yes, and the indirect realization "there is no self" is one of the first. But the point I was trying to make to Howard was that it is inseparable from right understanding of paramattha dhammas. If we try to understand anatta without understanding dhammas we are bound to come horribly unstuck. There are suttas that deal with the right and wrong ways of understanding the Dhamma. They are likened to the right and wrong ways of grasping sword grass, or picking up a snake. It's all about conditioned dhammas. If you begin with a wrong understanding of conditioned dhammas (such as thinking that they don't really exist) you have picked up a snake by the wrong end. Ken H #110227 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I? sarahprocter... Hi Ari, You're asking many good questions! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "a_true_lotus" wrote: > OK. It's hard to believe that thinking is not "I", as we are structured with thoughts and habits that make us, us. ... S: I agree that it seems like that, it really seems like they are "my" thoughts, my habits, my thinking. In fact, now, there is just thinking. If awareness is aware of thinking, that's all it is - no "me" in it. By understanding these various phenomena as they actually are, gradually there will be more detachment from the idea of "I" having such thoughts, habits, personality and so on. Just dhammas rolling on! ... > > >S: When we ask such questions, isn't it true as the Buddha taught that actually there is no "I" to be found anywhere? > A:> Well, I'm not that advanced, I guess. We went to this charity event, and I drank too much and had a miserable night's sleep and so suffered most of the next day. Not really a hangover, but just feeling crappy due to insomnia. > > So, I was resting on my bed, and I asked "who am I?" and the answer was "I'm a depressed woman laying in bed". That seemed to be the answer. .... S: At such moments of thinking like this, isn't the reality again just various kinds of thinking - in this case thinking about oneself in such and such a state? Can there be awareness now for a moment of thinking as just thinking, no "Ari" in it? We usually find our various thinking about various ideas rather important, but actually, aren't these moments just fleeting, insignificant phenomena, "namas", passing on? .... > >S: So I think you'll never find any idea about who you are or "who I am", because this "I" is just a figment of our imaginations that we cling to all day long. ... > Thanks for your post, Sarah. ... S: Thank you, Ari, for your comments and daily life examples which can all be discussed in the light of the Buddha's teachings. In his wisdom, he knew that all beings wander on ignorantly and recklessly in samsara, blind to the truth which only he could reveal out of his compassion for us. Let me know how the comments above sound. Metta Sarah p.s Pls remember to address "Sarah", "Phil", "All" or whoever it is at the top of your posts, so we can all quickly see at a glance who they're addressed to. Thanks in advance. ======== #110228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. nilovg Dear Ann, Op 25-sep-2010, om 3:09 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Thanks, Nina, for your additions here and particularly for Khun > Sujin's words. It helps. ------ N: I still did not answer your post on sa~n~naa, but I shall later on. I can hardly keep up with the mails. Nina #110229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dry insight. nilovg Dear Ann, Ken H puts it very well. He is so witty! Nina. Op 25-sep-2010, om 3:56 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > the indirect realization "there is no self" is one of the first. > But the point I was trying to make to Howard was that it is > inseparable from right understanding of paramattha dhammas. If we > try to understand anatta without understanding dhammas we are bound > to come horribly unstuck. #110230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who am I? A correction. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 24-sep-2010, om 20:54 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Sometimes we think that the self is real, but maybe the world is > not; and sometimes we think that there is no self, but the world at > least is real. ----- N: The question is: what is the world? There are six worlds, the world of visible object, sound, smell, flavour, tangible object and dhammas that can be experienced through the mind-door. These do not last. 'It crumbles away, that is the world', as I quoted to you from the sutta. We have to begin to know these worlds as they are, just characteristics of realities appearing one at a time. This will lead to deeper understanding of anattaa/su~n~nattaa. Nina. #110231 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Similes of the five khandhas. nilovg Dear Ann, First of all, I am so glad Glen recovered well. My best regards to him. Op 23-sep-2010, om 3:24 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > I generally think of Sanna as "memory". ... > In any case, I find myself wondering more about the nature of sanna > and its relationship to Nimimtta. Can you say more about this? > In the meantime, if I can recall more about that conversation I > will let you know. I have never quite understood about memory and > perception both being used to describe the function of sanna. And > Nimitta, what I understand to be like an image is difficult too. ------ N: Azita explained it very well. We may wonder about names and definitions, but examples are best. I just heard: I liked this phrase of Azita: Quote from what I heard: < Visible object arises and falls away and there is nothing left of it, only the sign, the nimitta of it remains. With perverted sa~n~naa, sa~n~naa vippallaasa we see people. Visible object should be understood as no one at all. > < The colour that appears through the eyes is the nimitta, the sign referring to the Great Elements that are there. When we see the nimitta of this or that person called by such or such a name, this is not the realisation of anattaa. When pa~n~naa arises it is known that through eyes shape and form appears and that this is a nimitta of the four Great Elements, not of people and things. > In Thai she said that the shape and form we see is the 'kryang maaj ' ( A pointer or sign ) to the four great Elements. If this is rememberd there will be anattaa sa~n~naa. If we keep on seeing persons and things there is attaa-sa~n~naa. Nina. #110232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness and thinking. 2. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 23-sep-2010, om 14:07 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What exactly is being asserted > here about the sounds? > .I would also add that the relationships among > instances of sound during the time of playing, which make the > sounds into > melody and not just isolated sounds at different times also > constitute a fact > that would be unknown were it not for a perceptual (and conceptual) > *synthesis* of experience over a period of time that is carried > out. So, the process > of coming to know the musical reality is a complex one dependent in > part > on analytic and in part on synthetic mental operations. ------ N: Yes, the melody is like a story and involves many processes. But when one interval is played, a terts, a quart, etc. it seems that it is one moment, but since we can recognize the interval it shows how fast different cittas are. Since we know c and e are played together seemingly at the same time, there must be several cittas. It shows their anattaness and that is what matters. Nina. #110233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pain. Was: Old age, to Han. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, an important subject I did not answer yet. Op 20-sep-2010, om 15:16 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Let's say a pain arises. Is pain a rupa? Or is it an experience? ------- N: It is feeling, painful bodily feeling and it accompanies the bodyconsciousness that is vipaakacitta. However, so soon afterwards aversion arises, and therefore it is hard to distinguish the vipaaka from akusala. However, it is very important. Vipaaka is what is received as a result of kamma. The reaction may be kusala or akusala, the active side of life. Also, we may confuse naama and ruupa, such as the hardness that impinges on bodysense, or the ruupa that is bodysense, and this conditions us to cling to the idea of my pain. ------- > R: Or both? Does pain break down into rupas like hardness, > pressure, etc.? To have dispassion with pain, would one look at the > nama experiencing the pain, and see the pain as a rupa, or also a > nama? ----- N: Many different naamas and ruupas are involved and these should not be mixed. Thinking of 'my pain' makes it worse. ------ > > R: It seems that sometimes if there is pain or anxiety, any > unpleasant experience, if one sees it as an experience, or breaks > it down into sensations, reactions, etc., that it causes some > detachment and the unpleasant experience has less intensity. ------ N: It all depends what reality appears and also whether understanding arises, or dosa about the pain. Anattaa. When it is dosa it is only a conditioned naama and also that reality can be known. We should have no preference for any reality, when it arises it has been conditioned already. No trying to have dispassion, than the self is involved again. Nina. #110234 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness and thinking. 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/25/2010 10:10:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 23-sep-2010, om 14:07 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What exactly is being asserted > here about the sounds? > .I would also add that the relationships among > instances of sound during the time of playing, which make the > sounds into > melody and not just isolated sounds at different times also > constitute a fact > that would be unknown were it not for a perceptual (and conceptual) > *synthesis* of experience over a period of time that is carried > out. So, the process > of coming to know the musical reality is a complex one dependent in > part > on analytic and in part on synthetic mental operations. ------ N: Yes, the melody is like a story and involves many processes. But when one interval is played, a terts, a quart, etc. it seems that it is one moment, but since we can recognize the interval it shows how fast different cittas are. Since we know c and e are played together seemingly at the same time, there must be several cittas. ------------------------------------------------ They ARE played together at the same time, but what is heard, the object of hearing, is a single (C + E)-chord-sound, a single rupa, and it requires additional analytic mental functioning to discover the basis in the two synchronous, individual notes. My point is that it is only due to that additional mental functioning that this basis is discovered. ------------------------------------------------- It shows their anattaness and that is what matters. Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110235 From: "maitreyi" Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:06 pm Subject: Useful Links maitreyi144 Dear Dhamma Friends, Here are some links --- has compilation of dhamma threads with valuable insight which were posted by Htoo Maing few years back. I hope these notes may become useful to you all. Also thanks to Sanskritdocuments.org - One of our friend has graciously hosted these links so, the material can be available to the dhamma aspirants. Links Below : http://sanskritdocuments.org/articles/Notes_on_PATTHANA_DHAMMA.pdf http://sanskritdocuments.org/articles/Notes_on_AbhiDhamma_Analysis.pdf http://sanskritdocuments.org/articles/Mahasatipatthanas_and_table.pdf With metta, ~maitreyi #110236 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:52 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi Rob Thanks, that's true. Sharing one's understanding of Dhamma is a deed of merit. I'm definitely interested in collecting merit, even if I still feel at this time that it's "mine." No way around that for the time being even if I think about it all being dhammas at work, that's just thinking. In Japanese there are the concepts tatemae and honnne. Tatemae is the accepted, publically stated principle that people should follow, honne is what the really deeply think and feel. I am always honne here, but the tatemae of "everything is dhammas at work" is an excellent tatemae, because it's the truth. But I think it's a truth that I will not reach in this lifetime, so I will respect my honnne, which is that I want to do whatever I can to have a favourable rebirth, and that I still can't shake my belief in an eternal atta. And respecting the tatemae (only dhammas at work) is also an important part of that because it will help to begin to guide me towards a deeper truth! Thus I'm grateful to DSG, it's the best forum for hearing that tatemae. PHil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Anyway, if you are still reading this, I deeply appreciate the time you have taken to answer my posts. Your posts are full of insight. > > > > > > See you soon, I hope, Phil :-) > > > > Thank you Arianna... > > Hm...You might keep in mind that you are collecting a lot of positive merit for helping others. If not for yourself, you may want to come back soon to be around as a resource. I would say that more than balances out any outbursts you may be responsible for. :-) [If not - extrapolating to myself - I'm in a lot of trouble...] > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = > #110237 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:06 am Subject: Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. ptaus1 Hi Ann, > If Jon or Pt have the time, I would nonetheless be interested in an elaboration of your discussion. As I said previously, "right intellectual understanding having to do with relating the present experience to anatta" that interests me. I wrote a response yesterday, but it looks like it got lost, so I'll try to recount here. I think right intellectual understnading has basically to do with the beginnings of detachment. I.e. when something is presently recognised as having the anatta characteristic, being conditioned, not me, etc, that would be the beginning of detachment. Sure, it's not a dhamma that's the object of citta with panna yet, it's still just concepts and thinking, but it's quite different from taking that thinking, anger, doubt, effort, etc, as me and my self. So, as you suggested, right intellectual understnading would take even that thinking itself as anatta - i.e. if there's some detachemnt from it, then there's right understnading. But of course, the same would apply just as well to anything else that's arising presently - anger, doubt, effort, panna, etc. I guess that deepening intellectual understnading in this way eventually leads to real detachment - i.e. to an actual dhamma becoming an object of cittas and panna seeing the anatta characteristics of it directly. Anyway, that's how I understand the topic at the moment. Maybe Jon will add more. There's also a lot on this topic in the useful posts file: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm In particular see these topics in the useful posts file: - "Considering, Listening, Intellectual Understanding, Pariyatti" - "Listening" - "Pariyatti" Best wishes pt #110238 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:57 pm Subject: Without Worry! bhikkhu5 Friends: Free from Fear by Release from all Anxiety: The young deity Subrahma once asked the Buddha: Always frightened is this Mind! Always troubled is this Mind! Always agitated is this Mind! About present problems... About future problems... If there is a release from this worry & anxiety, please then explain it to me right now! Whereupon the Blessed Buddha simply declared: I see no other real safety for any living being, except from control of the senses, except from the relinquishment of all, except from awakening into Enlightenment! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 54 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110239 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:19 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? jonoabb Hi Robert E (109901) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Alex. > ... > Thanks, Alex, for making this subject even more clear. It does seem that those who say that no practice should be engaged have reversed both Sutta and Vism and sometimes even Abhidhamma in order to do so, or in other cases twisted the clear exhortations to practice and make great efforts, striving for liberation from delusion. > > To quote a few of your greatest hits above that make it clear that practice and effort *should* be intentionally engaged: > > "The recitation should be done verbally in this way a hundred times, > > a thousand times, even a hundred thousand times. For it is through > > verbal recitation that the meditation subject becomes familiar..." > > "The mental recitation should be done just as it is done verbally." =============== J: These passages from the Visuddhimagga are addressed to the teachers of persons developing samatha (together with insight), not to the person developing samatha. In my view, they summarise the collective wisdom of the ancients, and are not intended as instructions to be followed. =============== > All of these quotes are very clear. It is only through a convoluted act of misunderstanding that one can deny their meaning, as there is no room for an alternate interpretation. It is not the case here, as it is with the anapanasati sutta, that the speaker says "There is the case where..." such and such happens, which could be interpreted as a report rather than a directive. In the examples you have given it is absolutely clear that it is a directive to DO what is being said. =============== J: Whether or not the passages are seen as being descriptive or prescriptive, the main thing is to understand that the exertion, endeavour, etc. being spoken of kusala, not the akusala kind of exertion/effort. To my understanding, any exertion of the conventional kind to have kusala instead of presently occurring akusala is bound to involve more akusala. Kusala comprises dana, sila and bhavana, but none of these include the intention to have/develop kusala (so-called `well-intentioned effort'). So it's a matter of how one understands the arising/development of kusala, rather than taking the words as being either descriptive or prescriptive. Jon #110240 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body jonoabb Hi KenO (109973) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: If there is no signficance, why bother to read and listen to dhamma. I am > not giving emphasis, I am just stating a fact because panna does not > differientiate what is the objects of a citta. Panna develops understanding > of the dhamma including itself that arise with the citta which could experience > any object. When the citta arise is a concept, panna partakes the experience of > the object of the citta which is a concept. =============== J: I have a different view on a couple of the points in your comments here. To my understanding: - When panna takes a citta as its object, the citta is one that has just fallen away, not the one the panna arises together with. - If the object of panna is a citta, then the object of that citta cannot also be the object of the panna. For example, if panna takes seeing consciousness as its object, the visible object cannot also be object of the same moment of panna. Perhaps your different take on these points explains the emphasis you like to give to the matter of `dhammas arising with concepts'? Jon #110241 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified jonoabb Hi KenO (109974) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: isnt it panna or faith that condition you to go listen to dhamma. If it is > not an intentional activity condition by panna, what is the root factor that > arise in such an action to go to listen from the way from the hotel to the > foundation. =============== J: Yes, I'm sure that previously accumulated panna and saddha would play a major role. Which is what I mean when I say it's not the intentional activity itself that is the conditioning factor. =============== > KO: Definitely there are quite a few examples in the suttas. I dont think you > need me to quote right because Alex will have given you many examples. I have > no qualms about Buddha asking his disciples to meditate or other intentional > actions because I know that intentional activity can be kusala and aksuala. =============== J: Not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that intentional activity that is akusala would be included in the intentional activity recommended by the Buddha? Surely not!! This is really the fundamental question: whether intentional activity designed to result in the arising of kusala can be kusala. =============== > >J: Past kamma certainly has a role. Without the appropriate past kamma, there > >cannot the associating with the wise person and the hearing of Dhamma > >appropriately explained, no matter what kind of intentional activities are > >undertaken. > > KO: determining role? :-) =============== J: My guess is that the technical name for the role of past kamma is `natural decisive support condition'. But we don't really need to get technical about it. It's sufficient to know that past kamma is important, as are the other factors given by the Buddha. Jon #110242 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:28 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa??aa jonoabb Hi KenO (109976) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: do all samantha bhavana need to be in jhanas :-). Are you saying that > during mundane jhanas citta panna cannot arise with jhanas. Also are you saying > during jhanas there is no sati, viriya, concentration, absentices which are > also mundane path factor. =============== J: The factors that you mention -- sati, viriya, concentration, etc. ? when arising with mundane jhana are not path factors. These same factors arise with all kinds of kusala. They are path factors only when they accompany a moment of awareness/insight. Similarly, only the panna that arises with a moment of awareness/insight is a path factor; the panna that arises with mundane jhana is not. Jon #110243 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:29 am Subject: Re: intentional activities jonoabb Hi Alex (109990) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > J: As previously explained, I do not suggest that all and any >intention is an expression of self-view. Straw man, Alex (!!). > > Great. So one can have intention to develop wholesome qualities without it being an expression of self-view. It is good that we agree on this crucial issue. =============== J: To my understanding, only the intention that arises together with actual kusala can be kusala intention. Thus, an intention to develop kusala, if formed in the mind when the consciousness is akusala, would not be kusala. All intention other than the intention that accompanies moments of kusala consciousness would be akusala (or kiriya) intention. Jon #110244 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:44 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (110025) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > I agree that dhammas will be known when the conditions arise to allow this. I do think we disagree on the idea that there is no difference between involvement with Dhamma and other processes that come from the Dhamma, and working the day shift at a lunch counter. It is possible that someone working the lunch counter will have sudden vipassana, but that is not what the Buddha taught in my opinion. =============== J: The main issue is whether, as taught by the Buddha, understanding (of whatever level) while working the lunch counter is possible. I'm not sure whether you're agreeing here that it is, or whether you're saying that this would run counter to the teachings. =============== > He clearly taught that living a certain way, doing certain activities, refraining from others, developing understanding, and seeing directly into the true nature of kandhas, would all together lead to awakening. Rather than being arbitrary, that lifestyle of the noble eightfold path was given to create the correct conditions for awakening, and the monks that followed the Buddha were approved for doing so. =============== J: I think your list of factors (`living a certain way, doing certain activities, refraining from others, developing understanding, and seeing directly into the true nature of khandhas') could be reduced to just the last 2. Would you agree with this, or are you suggesting that living a certain way (i.e., living a certain lifestyle) is a prerequisite to the arising of awareness/panna? =============== > To turn the eightfold noble path into something totally other, that has no relation to lifestyle or activities, and instead to say that conditions are totally separate from how and why a person behaves or what practices they do, seems to me to be in direct opposition to the behavior of Buddha and the arahats, and what they all extolled and advocated. ... Why not allow for the practice of those methods given by the Buddha and applauded by him for those who have the natural inclination to do so? There is room for both your model of natural arising and discernment, and for those other ways of approaching this that were also taught by the Boss. =============== J: I do not for a moment discount the significance, and indeed the merit, of the development of jhana by those who have accumulations for both jhana and insight. Our difference lies in exactly what this means, in the context of the teachings as found in the suttas. You place much emphasis on the behaviour of the Buddha and the great arahats. I think this can easily lead to mistaken conclusions; a more reliable source is the teachings given by the Buddha. =============== > The Buddha's system makes a lot of sense, and removing it and replacing it with a single activity of understanding sutta and Abhidhamma to develop pariyatti, is cutting the Buddha's system down to a single pathway where he had a number of pathways for different temperaments. One size does not fit all, and restricting practice to pariyatti is certainly not the natural practice for every Buddhist. =============== J: If there are different 'pathways', there is still a common denominator for the various paths. This common denominator is, I believe, the direct understanding of dhammas. So it's not a matter of wanting to replace many paths with one, but of identifying and focussing on the essence of the teachings that is common to all the various `paths'. =============== > Jon, are you glad you brought this up? Look what happened! Jon, you bring out the best in me! =============== J: And you challenge us in a way we don't otherwise experience! Jon #110245 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:22 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? philofillet Hi Jon and all > J: These passages from the Visuddhimagga are addressed to the teachers of persons developing samatha (together with insight), not to the person developing samatha. In my view, they summarise the collective wisdom of the ancients, and are not intended as instructions to be followed. I'm always caught by the phrase used in Visdh: "the clansman who is a beginner should." I don't know if it is used re recitation, but it is used re counting the breaths, Visdh. says the "clansman who is a beginner" "should" count the breath between 5 and ten times, I think. How on earth should we believe that the "clansman who is a beginner" be in tune with "the collective wisdom of the ancients?" Simply because he was born in an age that is historically closer to the Buddha? I think there are many reasons people in this day and age are less likely to succeed by following the instructions in Visdh but I have yet to see any clear evidence that the instructions in Visdh are not instructions. You have probably explained before why you believe the "clansman who is a beginner" is not a beginnner who needs instructions, but once more please...maybe it will click. I am open to logical explanations on this point, but saying that this "clansman who is a beginner" has some kind of inherited wisdom simply by virtue of living in an age that is historically closer to the Buddha and the ancient commentators doesn't hold water. I think you and students of A. Sujin would be on much solider ground if you stuck to questioning whether people in this day and age have impediments to practice rather that denying that the instructions in Visdm are instructions, which they so very clearly are. Instructions that are likely to be wasted on modern practicioners? Fine, that route can be argued. Not instructions? A bizarre route that I suspect has never been taken by any Buddhist other than students of A. Sujin, though if you can show me an example it would help me... Metta, Phil #110246 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Gall Bladder Surgery Update sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Is it the same Bruce who was on the list long ago? > ----- S: No, we haven't heard from the other DSG Bruce for many, many years - not since he visited Thailand at the same time as Erik. Phil may know of him - he was living in Nara, Japan, as I recall. Metta Sarah ====== #110247 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An afternoon with Pt - round 3 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: > Indeed, 'how to' does not help much. People ask: how to be aware. > Very good the breaks of snacks and dhamma talk! ... S: Yes, qus about how to know this or that object, how to have more metta or sati, how to distinguish this or that - all driven by lobha, not understanding the presently appearing reality. And yes, snack-breaks and dhamma talk - we've learnt about having lots of these in Thailand:-) Metta Sarah ======= #110248 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:58 am Subject: Re: Old age, to Han. sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Ann), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > But the big difference is that the Buddha could enter into Arahatta Phalasamaapatti to make his body comfortable. But for me I do not have any phalasamaapatti. I only have the courage, patience and the strength to bear it. So, I am now trying to develop these three qualities: courage, patience and strength. .... S: Yes, and what an inspiration to us all. Having withstood the hardship and pain, those tendencies are accumulated to withstand them again. Usually, I find, we dwell on the painful and forget that the painful bodily feeling is just one moment out of 17 in a body-door process of cittas, followed by many mind-door processes, usually with dosa and the thinking with lobha in between which clings to the story of the pain. So it seems we suffered for so long, when actually there were just brief moments of painful bodily feeling in between so many other cittas and processes of cittas. Ann, sa~n~na marks the sense objects and then, because of sa~n~na vipallasa (perversion of sa~n~na), there is the clinging to the nimitta of those objects and the taking them for being "something". This is why we read so often in the suttas about being taken in by the nimitta & anubya~njana - the signs and features, of what is experienced through the senses. For example, in SN 35:127 Bhaaradvaaja (Bodhi transl), it says that the Buddha encouraged the bhikkhus to "dwell guarding the doors of the sense faculties": "...Having seen a form with the eye, do not grasp its signs and features. Since, if you leave the eye faculty unguarded, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and displeasure might invade you, practise the way of its restraint, guard the eye faculty, undertake the restraint of the eye faculty. Having heard a sound with the ear....smelt and odour with the nose....a taste with the tongue....Having felt a tactile object with the body....Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, do not grasp its signs and features. Since, if you leave the mind faculty unguarded, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and displeasure might invade you, practise the way of its restraint, guard the mind faculty, undertake the restraint of the mind faculty.'..." Of course, all such restraint has to be with sati sampaja~n~na, with right awareness and understanding. At such moments of understanding of visible object or hardness or painful feeling or any other reality, there is restraint and guarding already. No self to do anything! Thanks to you both for the chance to reflect further. Metta Sarah ====== #110249 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. hantun1 Dear Sarah (& Ann), > > Han: But the big difference is that the Buddha could enter into Arahatta Phalasamaapatti to make his body comfortable. But for me I do not have any phalasamaapatti. I only have the courage, patience and the strength to bear it. So, I am now trying to develop these three qualities: courage, patience and strength. ---------- > Sarah: Yes, and what an inspiration to us all. Having withstood the hardship and pain, those tendencies are accumulated to withstand them again. Usually, I find, we dwell on the painful and forget that the painful bodily feeling is just one moment out of 17 in a body-door process of cittas, followed by many mind-door processes, usually with dosa and the thinking with lobha in between which clings to the story of the pain. So it seems we suffered for so long, when actually there were just brief moments of painful bodily feeling in between so many other cittas and processes of cittas. ---------- Han: When I was in great pain as soon as I regained consciousness from general anesthesia, I could think of only intense pain which I had never experienced before in my whole life. At that moment, I could not think about the body-door process of cittas, or the mind-door process, or anything else. What I could think of was only one thing: PAIN!, PAIN!, and more PAIN!. I could still hear my own horrifying voice shouting about the pain, the kind of deep-throated un-human voice that came from the nether world. I am sure if I had died at that moment I would go straight to hell. The pain was that intense! Now that the pain is over, I can consider and contemplate on your wise advice, as given above. Respectfully, Han #110250 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. nilovg Dear Han, Op 26-sep-2010, om 12:53 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > What I could think of was only one thing: PAIN!, PAIN!, and more > PAIN!. I could still hear my own horrifying voice shouting about > the pain, the kind of deep-throated un-human voice that came from > the nether world. I am sure if I had died at that moment I would go > straight to hell. The pain was that intense! ------ N: No, do not think in that way. It depends on kamma, and there are so many processes of cittas, we cannot trace them. Kusala kamma of the past may be very powerful and produce a happy rebirth. But who are we to know? There is no way to know for us. It is all by conditions, also the moments of unbearable pain. Kh Sujin once said: she would rather have the akusala vipaaka now than in an unhappy plane. But fortunately it is all past. Nina. #110251 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Robert) - In a message dated 9/26/2010 2:19:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: J: Whether or not the passages are seen as being descriptive or prescriptive, the main thing is to understand that the exertion, endeavour, etc. being spoken of kusala, not the akusala kind of exertion/effort. To my understanding, any exertion of the conventional kind to have kusala instead of presently occurring akusala is bound to involve more akusala. Kusala comprises dana, sila and bhavana, but none of these include the intention to have/develop kusala (so-called `well-intentioned effort'). So it's a matter of how one understands the arising/development of kusala, rather than taking the words as being either descriptive or prescriptive. =============================== Let's suppose, Jon, that you have an area of vulnerability, a powerful inclination towards gambling or drink or illiciit/dangerous sexuality or violence that is likely lead you to harmful action. Suppose, accordingly, you intentionally avoid situations that will be tempting and proactively turn the mind away from fantasizing in that direction, and even turn the mind towards offsetting thoughts and emotions. IYO, Jon, is that way of behaving wholesome or unwholesome, wise or unwise, kusala or akusala? What would the Buddha urge? Would he, as in MN 8, the discourse on effacement, say to combat unwholesome inclination and action by wholesome action, or would he say that there is no you to do anything, and any attempt at proactive approach only involves "self," and you can't do anything anyway, because it's all just conditions? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110252 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:27 pm Subject: We are alone. nilovg Dear friends, From a Thai recording in Jetavanna. We are all alone. We think of many people, of those we love, but that is just our thinking. Those people do not stay; everything arises and falls away, never to return. We do not exist, there are mere dhammas arising and falling away. Everything goes, goes, goes, no matter it is experienced through the eyes, the ears or through any other doorway. We find the stories relating to the people we love so important, but next life these stories are all forgotten. We are alone, there are no people. Pa~n~naa has to be developed in order to know the truth. We are born alone: only one citta arises, the rebirth-consciousness, the first citta of life. It falls away and is succeeded by the life-continuum, the bhavanga-citta. All bhavanga- cittas keep the continuity in the life of a person from birth to death. Only one citta arises at a time. When we are seeing we are alone, only one citta at a time arises and falls away to be succeeded by a following citta. When we are hearing, we are alone. When we are thinking, we are alone: only one citta at a time arises and falls away to be succeeded by a following citta. We are thinking about many things we remember, but each citta that thinks falls away immediately. ***** Nina. #110253 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:57 pm Subject: Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. epsteinrob Hi All, esp. Nina, Sarah and Jon - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Anyway, that's how I understand the topic at the moment. Maybe Jon will add more. There's also a lot on this topic in the useful posts file: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm > > In particular see these topics in the useful posts file: > - "Considering, Listening, Intellectual Understanding, Pariyatti" > - "Listening" > - "Pariyatti" Good to know about the files. I have been wondering: I have seen pieces of Abhidhamma commentary translation on this list from time to time that probably don't exist anywhere else. I don't see them collected in the "Files." I wonder if there is any organized way of finding or collecting those commentaries if one wants to read them? Do you know what topic headings they are under? I'd love to be able to see what commentary topics are translated here, and look them up for different subjects. It also would be useful, if anyone knows the info, to have a list of the books of the Abhidhamma that have been translated, commentaries that have been translated, and where they are published and available. I developed a desire to read the Patthana a while back, and was slightly fascinated to discover that there was no English translation as far as I know. I did find a book in Burma that quoted and commented on it - on Part II being available - by U Narada, and which I found quite difficult to read, but wouldn't it be nice to have a list of what exists and where it is? I should probably start with Nina and K. Sujin's books, and a good translation of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha anyway, and don't even have time to properly read those, but still, it would be nice to be able to read some of the Abhidhamma and commentaries as well. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #110254 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:12 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (109901) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex. > > ... > > Thanks, Alex, for making this subject even more clear. It does seem that those who say that no practice should be engaged have reversed both Sutta and Vism and sometimes even Abhidhamma in order to do so, or in other cases twisted the clear exhortations to practice and make great efforts, striving for liberation from delusion. > > > > To quote a few of your greatest hits above that make it clear that practice and effort *should* be intentionally engaged: > > > > "The recitation should be done verbally in this way a hundred times, > > > a thousand times, even a hundred thousand times. For it is through > > > verbal recitation that the meditation subject becomes familiar..." > > > > "The mental recitation should be done just as it is done verbally." > =============== > > J: These passages from the Visuddhimagga are addressed to the teachers of persons developing samatha (together with insight), not to the person developing samatha. In my view, they summarise the collective wisdom of the ancients, and are not intended as instructions to be followed. > > =============== I wonder what is the evidence that your opinion is based on? The evidence that is actually here in the Vism is that all the quoted statements made are clearly given as instructions. Is there a reason that you think they are not instructions, even though they are clearly put forward that way? I don't understand the propensity to think something is the opposite of what it says, unless there is some direct statement that it is not to be taken that way. As far as I know, there is no tradition in which the wisdom of the ancients is given as instructions for no good reason, when it is really meant *not* to be taken as instructions. If someone says "You should do this," "You must do this," why would you think that this is not what is meant? > > All of these quotes are very clear. It is only through a convoluted act of misunderstanding that one can deny their meaning, as there is no room for an alternate interpretation. It is not the case here, as it is with the anapanasati sutta, that the speaker says "There is the case where..." such and such happens, which could be interpreted as a report rather than a directive. In the examples you have given it is absolutely clear that it is a directive to DO what is being said. > =============== > > J: Whether or not the passages are seen as being descriptive or prescriptive, the main thing is to understand that the exertion, endeavour, etc. being spoken of kusala, not the akusala kind of exertion/effort. Well, that may be two different points: a/ IS it meant to be descriptive, even though it is in a clearly prescriptive form. Would be nice to settle that once and for all, though I doubt it will ever happen, since one is not going by the actual words, but by a philosophical presumption or dogma that is *not* in the text. As I said, it seems to be a willful or convoluted act of misunderstanding in order to insert one's own philosophy in an otherwise clearly enunciated text. I don't mind anyone thinking that reality works a certain way, and following the texts and commentaries that support that view, but it seems very unfair to impose that same understanding on texts that say the opposite, just to insist that one's own view is correct. b/ If it is not descriptive, is it correct or not? You might have to go radical in that case and say "This is an aspect of the Vism that I think is wrong, and promotes conventional effort in an akusala way." I would like to see that. It would be more clear and direct than saying "They said it, but they didn't mean it - they really agreed with me." > To my understanding, any exertion of the conventional kind to have kusala instead of presently occurring akusala is bound to involve more akusala. Kusala comprises dana, sila and bhavana, but none of these include the intention to have/develop kusala (so-called `well-intentioned effort'). > > So it's a matter of how one understands the arising/development of kusala, rather than taking the words as being either descriptive or prescriptive. It is both. It would be good to know what the ancients had in mind, before deciding whether what they are saying is correct or not. It's okay with me to disagree with the great sages - one needn't slavishly follow everything that is said if you disagree with it, but it is good to establish first what they did or didn't have in mind. If they *are* giving instructions, then we might inquire how and in what way. If they are not, that is a different story. Secondly, there is more than one way to establish what kind of effort/intention/practice is or isn't akusala. There is not just one possible way of looking at this. My sense is that one can engage with right effort/right intention and right practice without promoting a sense of self having control or insisting on a particular result, but to simply engage in a kusala process and trust that it will go where it is supposed to, wherever that is, based on conditions. You seem to disagree with this, and think that one must put forward no effort or intention or it promotes self-view and must be akusala, even if one's intention is "open" and not trying to exercise control. So that is where the disagreement probably lies, and I don't think it can be resolved as it is a matter of opinion, philosophy, and personal discovery. I may discover that your view is correct, but at present I think it is overly dogmatic in this area. As for the writer of the Vism and other great sages, if they say "do this, do that" and to make "great effort" in doing so, I would pay some attention to that, and not dismiss it out of hand, or make up an alternate interpretation of those commands because of one's own predisposition. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110255 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:23 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (110025) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > I agree that dhammas will be known when the conditions arise to allow this. I do think we disagree on the idea that there is no difference between involvement with Dhamma and other processes that come from the Dhamma, and working the day shift at a lunch counter. It is possible that someone working the lunch counter will have sudden vipassana, but that is not what the Buddha taught in my opinion. > =============== > > J: The main issue is whether, as taught by the Buddha, understanding (of whatever level) while working the lunch counter is possible. I'm not sure whether you're agreeing here that it is, or whether you're saying that this would run counter to the teachings. > > =============== I do not think it would run counter - I think it is possible for anyone to have awakening at any time based on their past accumulations, sharpness of their own natural bent towards wisdom, and conditions, but I don't think it's likely. I think it's very unlikely and don't think it happens very often if at all. I think that those who study Dhamma AND practice meditation in order to concretize their understanding through concentrated experience are MUCH more likely to make progress on the path - that is to say, to accumulate those qualities that are necessary to create the conditions for enlightenment. > > He clearly taught that living a certain way, doing certain activities, refraining from others, developing understanding, and seeing directly into the true nature of kandhas, would all together lead to awakening. Rather than being arbitrary, that lifestyle of the noble eightfold path was given to create the correct conditions for awakening, and the monks that followed the Buddha were approved for doing so. > =============== > > J: I think your list of factors (`living a certain way, doing certain activities, refraining from others, developing understanding, and seeing directly into the true nature of khandhas') could be reduced to just the last 2. Would you agree with this, or are you suggesting that living a certain way (i.e., living a certain lifestyle) is a prerequisite to the arising of awareness/panna? > > =============== I think that the Buddha clearly said that the doing of meritorious action in the conventional way, doing meditation towards development of samatha and vipassana, as well as understanding Dhamma and progressing in other areas of the path, create the conditions and accumulate the merit for both positive kamma to develop and create better conditions, and for the accumulations that lead to wisdom. Whether they are necessary is another matter. I don't know if they are all necessary, but I know they were all made part of the path that the Buddha espoused and I take him seriously. There is a reason why he listed voluminously all the ways in which monks and householders should and shouldn't behave, think, practice etc. I don't think he did it to pass the time. > > To turn the eightfold noble path into something totally other, that has no relation to lifestyle or activities, and instead to say that conditions are totally separate from how and why a person behaves or what practices they do, seems to me to be in direct opposition to the behavior of Buddha and the arahats, and what they all extolled and advocated. ... Why not allow for the practice of those methods given by the Buddha and applauded by him for those who have the natural inclination to do so? There is room for both your model of natural arising and discernment, and for those other ways of approaching this that were also taught by the Boss. > =============== > > J: I do not for a moment discount the significance, and indeed the merit, of the development of jhana by those who have accumulations for both jhana and insight. Our difference lies in exactly what this means, in the context of the teachings as found in the suttas. > > You place much emphasis on the behaviour of the Buddha and the great arahats. I think this can easily lead to mistaken conclusions; a more reliable source is the teachings given by the Buddha. > > =============== I am merely including lifestyle and activity, rather than leaving it out. The only thing I am saying is that *he* emphasized them continually *in his teaching,* not just in his behavior, so the distinction is irrelevant. I personally harbor the fantasy that I can awaken without living a pure and noble life, but I may be very mistaken. > > The Buddha's system makes a lot of sense, and removing it and replacing it with a single activity of understanding sutta and Abhidhamma to develop pariyatti, is cutting the Buddha's system down to a single pathway where he had a number of pathways for different temperaments. One size does not fit all, and restricting practice to pariyatti is certainly not the natural practice for every Buddhist. > =============== > > J: If there are different 'pathways', there is still a common denominator for the various paths. This common denominator is, I believe, the direct understanding of dhammas. I don't disagree with you about that! Direct experiential understanding, whether it comes sooner or later, is the essential factor in awakening. > So it's not a matter of wanting to replace many paths with one, but of identifying and focusing on the essence of the teachings that is common to all the various `paths'. And also all the supports and conditions that are necessary and desirable for different individuals to realize that essence of the teachings. You can't have direct experience without right conditions, and it is a big issue what creates those conditions, isn't it? So we have to deal with that too. If it turns out that meditation is an essential tool for developing samatha and vipassana, as I think it is, and people are refraining from doing so because they think it is akusala, that would be a big mistake, wouldn't it? > > =============== > > Jon, are you glad you brought this up? Look what happened! Jon, you bring out the best in me! > =============== > > J: And you challenge us in a way we don't otherwise experience! Thank you, Jon. I am honored to have that role, and also to learn a lot from all of you while causing trouble. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110256 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:21 am Subject: Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. gazita2002 hallo Rob, try the Pali Text Society, jst google it:) They have quite a lot of the Tripitika in English: good luck patience, courage and good cheer azita #110257 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:20 pm Subject: The 3 Types of Persons... bhikkhu5 Friends: On the 3 Types of Persons similar to Sick People: The Blessed Buddha once noted: There are these three kinds of bodily sick people: One will recover by himself, even without any doctor or any medicine.. One will never recover, even if treated by the best doctor & best medicine.. One will only recover if treated by right medicine and a good doctors advice.. It is for the sake of this last person, that doctors work and medicine is made! Similarly with those mentally infected by illness of greed, hate & ignorance! There are these three kinds of mentally sick people: One will cure & free himself, even without meeting this Buddha-Dhamma... One will never be cured, even if taught this Dhamma by the Buddha himself... One will be cured & freed, if & only if, taught & learning this Buddha-Dhamma... It is for the sake of this last type of person, that this Dhamma should be shared! The Best Doctor treating one of his disciples for a physical illness. Mental Dis-Ease is found in almost all beings! The Kammic Causes of Disease: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Health_ &_Sickness.htm Source (abbreviated excerpt): The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya. Sutta III:22 The sick [I:120] Gila-na- http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #110258 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), I thank you very much for your kind remarks on my reply post to Sarah. I always admire your thorough knowledge (also Sarah as well) and I accept all of your ideas. But sometimes, I know that my responses to your posts were negative. In such cases, you never got angry with me, but explained to me with patience and tolerance. I thank you very much for that. I will tell you a story. When I was in Burma Army as a Medical Officer, I was posted to the Military Hospital at Maymyo. The Commanding Officer was very strict and would not tolerate even a small breach of discipline. But on the other hand, he taught us very well. Although he was a Surgeon, he was as good as a Professor of Medicine in medicine, or as good as a Professor of Pathology in pathology, etc. He knew every subject thoroughly and he taught us with cetanaa, although he had a sharp tongue and he did not show any warm attitude towards anybody. Some medical officers liked him but some did not. One of our senior colleagues did not like him at all and he was talking ill of him all the time. I was then posted to another Army Unit and we parted our ways. Years rolled by, and I was posted to the Base Military Hospital at Mingaladon, near Rangoon. There, I met that senior colleague. He was by then the Chief Surgeon. When I met him I was very much surprised. I was surprised because, he was speaking and acting exactly the same way, and as equally strict as the Commanding Officer of the Military Hospital, Maymyo, whom he had criticized all the time in those days. So, when you receive my negative reply, please consider that I am in the mood of that senior colleague while he was in Maymyo. But in my heart of hearts I will always accept your kind advice. Respectfully, Han > N: No, do not think in that way. It depends on kamma, and there are so many processes of cittas, we cannot trace them. Kusala kamma of the past may be very powerful and produce a happy rebirth. But who are we to know? #110259 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:51 am Subject: Tadao at the Saturday Discussions sukinderpal Hi Jon, Sarah, Tadao and all, This is just to let you know that Tadao visited the Foundation this last Saturday and it was his first meeting with A. Sujin in 20 years for whom he brought a gift. I took a liking to him almost immediately and by the end of the discussions, thought to myself that it would be nice if he moved to Bangkok. ;-) Later at Starbucks he said that he may be here next February and so I suggested that he let you two know about his plans so that you could also plan to visit Bangkok at the same time. As usual we discussed a few things and I can't recall much of it, but I do remember that Tadao showed much interest, asking questions. So I hope that he will respond and give his own report. Metta, Sukinder #110260 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:18 am Subject: Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo Rob, > > try the Pali Text Society, jst google it:) > They have quite a lot of the Tripitika in English: good luck Thanks for that; I may look there just to see what is there in full volumes. At present, I am most interested in material that is online, or in the threads of this group, although I do want to know what is available in volumes as well, as I would like to buy some translations eventually - when I catch up on my book reading and have permission to buy another book. Right now I'm on "book purchase probation." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110261 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. nilovg Dear Han, Op 27-sep-2010, om 4:38 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > So, when you receive my negative reply, please consider that I am > in the mood of that senior colleague while he was in Maymyo. ----- N: Thank you for your kind mail. No, I never heard any negative reply from you. You are an example of kindness for all of us, be assured of that. You inspire me to continue with the anusaya Yamaka, but I still need some more time. Kindest regards, Nina. #110262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 26-sep-2010, om 22:57 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > I have seen pieces of Abhidhamma commentary translation on this > list from time to time that probably don't exist anywhere else. ------- N: I appreciate it that you have so much interest in commentaries. In my Series on the Abhidhamma I end up with a short description of all the seven books. Now almost the last one on the Pa.t.thaana. THis is the beginning:< The Abhidhamma consists of the following seven books: 1.Dhammasanga.nii (translated as 'Buddhist Psychological Ethics', P.T.S. and also translated by U Kyaw, Myanmar.) 2.Vibha?nga (translated as 'Book of Analysis', P.T.S.) 3.Dhaatukathaa (Translated as 'Discourse on Elements', P.T.S.) 4. Puggalapa~n~natti (Translated as 'A Designation of Human Types', P.T.S.) 5.Kathaavatthu (Translated as 'Points of Controversy', P.T.S.) 6.Yamaka (the Book of Pairs, not translated into English) 7.Pa.t.thaana (Translated in part as 'Conditional Relations', P.T.S. ) ------ A summary of the contents of these seven books has been given by Ven. Nyanatiloka in his ?Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka? (BPS Kandy, 1971) and also by U Kyaw Khine in the introduction to his translation of the Dhammasa?nganii. Therefore, I will render only some salient features of each book with the purpose to show that the classifications found in the Abhidhamma are not mere lists to be read and memorized. They all point to the investigation of the realities of our daily life. In this way the pa~n~naa is developed that sees realities as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. This kind of pa~n~naa leads to the eradication of defilements. The commentary to the Dhammasa?nganii, the first book, is the ?Atthasaalinii?, edited by the venerable Buddhaghosa and translated as ?Expositor?. > Then there is the series on the anusayas, of the anusaya yamaka. Perhaps pt can help here to find it. I have no idea. Nina. #110263 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:37 am Subject: Re: Tadao at the Saturday Discussions glenjohnann Hello Sukin, Tadao, Sarah and Jon First of all, Tadao, wonderful to see you on line here and to hear that you have returned to Bangkok and went there this week-end especially to go to the Foundation. No doubt it was a wonderful experience reconnecting again with A. Sujin. Re February, I expect to come to Thailand sometime in January and for most of February (Glen coming in Feb.) - it would be wonderful to connect with you all again then. Let's keep in touch. Ann Looking forward to hearing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinderpal" wrote: > > Hi Jon, Sarah, Tadao and all, > > This is just to let you know that Tadao visited the Foundation this last Saturday and it was his first meeting with A. Sujin in 20 years for whom he brought a gift. I took a liking to him almost immediately and by the end of the discussions, thought to myself that it would be nice if he moved to Bangkok. ;-) Later at Starbucks he said that he may be here next February and so I suggested that he let you two know about his plans so that you could also plan to visit Bangkok at the same time. > > > Sukinder > #110264 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tadao at the Saturday Discussions sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, Tadao, Ann and all, Many thanks for the report and yes, Tadao, it would be good to hear any of your comments or reflections from the meeting and discussion. We plan to make some visits to Bangkok from Hong Kong between 22nd Oct and early/mid Jan when we'll be based in Hong Kong for short court cases Jon has. All of Feb we'll definitely be in Sydney because my mother will be here with us and she's already got her ticket. Anytime after she leaves (about 5th March), we're likely to be back in Asia. Ann, perhaps we'll see you in Bkk either early Jan or early/mid March if you're still there. Tadao, we look forward to seeing you again soon too. Ann, I was just re-reading your off-list letter which we received whilst in transit for Bkk a while ago. You sympathetically (rightly)mentioned that "moves can be drainging, with endless 'to do' lsts full of domestic minutiae" and said that you trusted that we have now worked out way "through a lot of that and can now put less focus on the worldly possessions of the householder!" Yes, it really is like that, isn't it? And there's no escape from such focus at such times. And how wonderful, I was thinking just now as I came across your letter, to know that the snares and the burdens that the Buddha taught about are the kilesa, the defilements of the mind, the dusty life of lobha, dosa and moha, rather than anything to be observed in the chores of household life. The answer is not to move the deckchairs, not to relinquish one's responsibilities or household chores (if a householder), but to develop understanding at this very moment. I do hope you and Glen have recoverd from your shock at the beginning of the summer and am so glad you'll both be able to visit Thailand again soon. Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 27/9/10, sukinderpal wrote: <..> >As usual we discussed a few things and I can't recall much of it, but I do remember that Tadao showed much interest, asking questions. So I hope that he will respond and give his own report. #110265 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Tep*), I sent you a couple of other posts yesterday which haven't shown up and I didn't keep copies (sent on the web). Let this be a lesson to others to keep copies! I think Pt mentioned that one of his seems to have been lost too - strange! Anyway, in brief, Han, I mentioned that I thought your last post in the series (#110126) was beautiful and inspiring, full of good sutta quotes. Very touching how your wife who nearly lost her life last year was there to help support you along the corridor. Also, I understood your feelings about Shwedagon and the special shrine. Htoo told me how on his return to Myanmar after living overseas, this was his first place of visit, even before seeing his wife, son or other family members. You'd like to recollect the same during your dying moments and we all have ideas of what we might like to recollect, but this is just clinging now! Always back to the present reality:-) Again, I really, really appreciated your sharing on-list. They are a wonderful series for everyone to learn from. We will all suffer sickness, great pain and aging for sure. I trust that you now have your appetite back and that we'll be able to see you (or at least speak) when we next visit. --- On Sun, 26/9/10, han tun wrote: >Han: When I was in great pain as soon as I regained consciousness from general anesthesia, I could think of only intense pain which I had never experienced before in my whole life. At that moment, I could not think about the body-door process of cittas, or the mind-door process, or anything else. What I could think of was only one thing: PAIN!, PAIN!, and more PAIN!. I could still hear my own horrifying voice shouting about the pain, the kind of deep-throated un-human voice that came from the nether world. I am sure if I had died at that moment I would go straight to hell. The pain was that intense! >Now that the pain is over, I can consider and contemplate on your wise advice, as given above. .... S: Yes, it's over now, that nightmare experience is over now. I once had surgery (only minor compared to yours) but made the mistake of asking the anaesthetist in advance to give me the lightest possible anaesthetic. Like you, when I regained consciousness from the general anaesthesia, the pain was intolerable and no one seemed able to help, so I can imagine. And now? Now, like then, different cittas experiencing different objects. The seeing seems to last, the bodily experience seems to last, the lobha, the dosa seem to last, the pleasant and unpleasant feelings seem to last. Actually, just a moment of seeing and then lost of thinking, just a moment of bodily experience and then lots of thinking. And none of it is Sarah or Han....just different dhammas rolling on, opportunities for sati to be aware and understanding to understand, regardless of whether it's the most intense pain or the most blissful state. So glad you're sounding so well again - I can "hear" the good humour in your writing once more:-)) Very best wishes, Partner! Metta Sarah *p.s I was glad to see Tep's selected quote. He wrote to me while you were away out of concern and when I mentioned that we'd be very glad to see him sharing here again, he doubted it, but truly we would!! ========= #110266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 nilovg Dear pt, Op 22-sep-2010, om 6:04 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt:3. I've also asked about not being certain whether what I'm > experiencing at the moment is a particular kind of dhamma or > another - for example, when touching something, I'm not really sure > whether I'm actually experiencing hardness (rupa) or is it a > perception (of hardness - nama). ------ N: We cannot be sure until the first stage of tender insight. Long ago I asked Kh Sujin about this. I said that it seems trhat ruupa appears more than naama and how would I know naama? She said that when we are more familiar with the characteristic of ruupa this understanding itself would condition awareness of naama. Understanding will operate because of its own conditions. ------- > pt.4. I've also mentioned how difficult it was for me to understand > that just the fact that I'm putting in effort into something does > not necessarily mean that it's kusala effort. Only when I started > learning abhidhamma did this point come across - i.e. that pretty > much any activity can be either kusala or akusala, and more > precisely - effort, concentration, perception, attention, etc, can > be kusala or akusala depending on the citta. Hence, the importance > of understanding the difference between the two experientially. ------ N: Also this will come at the first stage of insight. First one has to know these cetasikas as just naamas and not try to put labels on them, as I understood. ----- Nina. #110267 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I thank you both for your kind comments. Nina: Thank you for your kind mail. No, I never heard any negative reply from you. You are an example of kindness for all of us, be assured of that. You inspire me to continue with the anusaya Yamaka, but I still need some more time. ----- Han: You are so kind, Nina. Please take your own time about the Anusaya Yamaka. I think I am also not fit for that yet. ========== Sarah: You'd like to recollect the same during your dying moments and we all have ideas of what we might like to recollect, but this is just clinging now! Always back to the present reality:-) And now? Now, like then, different cittas experiencing different objects. The seeing seems to last, the bodily experience seems to last, the lobha, the dosa seem to last, the pleasant and unpleasant feelings seem to last. Actually, just a moment of seeing and then lost of thinking, just a moment of bodily experience and then lots of thinking. And none of it is Sarah or Han....just different dhammas rolling on, opportunities for sati to be aware and understanding to understand, regardless of whether it's the most intense pain or the most blissful state. ----- Han: I will note with respect your above comments, and will not let my mood slip back to that of my senior colleague:-)) Respectfully, Han #110268 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:43 am Subject: memories of the late Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. nilovg Dear Lukas, I am trying to remember more about Ven. Dhammadharo's sayings. When we were on an India trip in Calcutta I asked him to speak into my recorder a message for Lodewijk in Holland. He reminded us that we are clinging to the company of people. In reality there is no Lodewijk in Holland, no Nina in Calcutta. It was more or less the same as what Kh Sujin said about 'being alone'. Once after a daana for the monks he reminded us about the danger of the latent tendencies, anusayas. He said that as Dhamma students we may feel confortable, not killing, stealing, lying, not performing evil deeds. But the latent tendencies can take us by surprise and condition strong akusala that can motivate evil deeds we thought we were not capable of. They are so unforeseeable, unpredictable. About understanding anattaa: we may think that as beginners this is most difficult. But when we better understand that seeing is naama, visible object is ruupa, it is already a beginning of understanding non-self. He said: 'It is naama, that means not self. It is ruupa, that means not self.' ------ Nina. #110269 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 20-sep-2010, om 15:24 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > I have thought about this story for years, that even those who are > very "advanced" in their view need compassion for being attached to > their cherished illusions and concepts. The human condition of > attachment to illusions and concepts goes on until the very highest > realization, doesn't it? I wonder if even an arahant can experience > this kind of attachment arise, or not? ------ N: Thank you for the Tibetan story, it is very human. Yes, difficult to apply: there is no Lodewijk. Lodewijk gets even angry when he hears this. At the stage of the sotaapanna there is no more wrong view of a person who exists, but the ariyan of the first and second stage can still be sad about a loss. The ariyan of the third stage has no more dosa, no sadness, he does not cling to the objects experienced through the senses. ------- > > R: In any case, this story helps me see that it is too impatient to > expect ourselves to reach full detachment very quickly. We can't > blame ourselves for being "stuck" in this condition. Instead, as > you and others always remind us, we can only look at what is > arising now and see what it is. ------ N: You put this very well. Thank you. Nina. #110270 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. ptaus1 Hi RobE and Nina, > N: Then there is the series on the anusayas, of the anusaya yamaka. > Perhaps pt can help here to find it. I have no idea. Anusaya series can be found in the useful posts file: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm See the posts in these UP topics: -"Yamaka" -"Anusaya" Also, if you're interested in yamaka, Chew has some translations and talks on it on his blog: http://cittayamaka.blogspot.com/ Regarding the commentaries and abhidhamma books - this is the PTS site: http://www.palitext.com/ They have most of the commentaries and abhidhamma books in English currently. If you have a good library close by, they might have a lot of PTS books - mine has more than half the PTS catalog. Best wishes pt #110271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 27-sep-2010, om 12:23 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Regarding the commentaries and abhidhamma books - this is the PTS > site: > http://www.palitext.com/ ------ N: I searched: Abhidhamma Series and found the messages: 108948 109119, 109307, 109703, 109912, 110168. Search Abh Series and you get them altogether. Nina. #110272 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: Thank you for the Tibetan story, it is very human. Yes, difficult > to apply: there is no Lodewijk. Lodewijk gets even angry when he > hears this. At the stage of the sotaapanna there is no more wrong > view of a person who exists, but the ariyan of the first and second > stage can still be sad about a loss. Thank you for telling me this. That is good to know - it may explain why some great teachers still fall into these human reactions, and that it doesn't mean they are not far advanced on the path, just perhaps not yet at the third stage, which must be very rare. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:54 pm Subject: What I heard. from audio (DSG org), 2007-07, P d. nilovg Dear friends, from audio (DSG org), 2007-07, P d. Sarah : is it necessary to know by experience all the links of the Dependent Origination, or just the fact that ignorance and craving lead to becoming, and so on? --- Kh S: When you experience hardness do you have to say that it is hard, or to think that it is hard or that it is conditioned? There can be understanding of different realities and also of different conditions. If one is so concerned about D.O. without knowing that there is avijjaa at those moments what is the use of thinking about D.O.? What is it that conditions and what is conditioned? Sarah: Many people have doubts about past lives and future lives because of not understanding realities now. Is it correct that at the second stage of insight there is no more doubt about past and future lives because of the understanding of conditions? Kh S: Before there is the development of satipa.t.thaana one knows through the study that seeing does not occur at the same time as hearing. There is the succession of one moment to another moment. This is only the understanding of the truth in a conventional way. When pa~n~naa just knows the characteristics of naama and ruupa is this enough to eradicate the clinging to self? We shall see how long it takes for pa~n~naa to grow at each stage of insight. When the first stage of insight is reached this does not mean that there is no need to develop satipa.t.thaana anymore. Why does one have to develop satipa.t.thaana again and again? In order to become familiar with the characteristic of non-self . It should be known that whatever arises is conditioned. By understanding conditions there will be less clinging. But we do not have to name conditions or to think: the eye- base conditions seeing right now. Azita: It takes a long time. Kh S: What do you see now? How long this takes and this is pa.tipatti (practice). There is pa.tipatti when there is right awareness arising because of conditions, by itself; not by the intention to do something or to watch. Just understand realities right now, we do not have to do anything. Each moment is conditioned already and when awareness arises it is aware of whatever appears. When sati arises some understanding begins naturally, because every moment is conditioned already. The truth is not easy to know, even in a conceptual way. Azita: Even the level of pariyatti is difficult to understand. Kh. S.: Conceptual understanding of the truth is not easy. What about realities, these are much more difficult to understand. No one can do anything, no one can have effort at will, it is already there. There is no need to think:?I will have effort?. ********** Nina. #110274 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:29 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Arianna > > > > Well, I don't know your reason for leaving, and maybe it is a good one. Sometimes I also take "internet breaks" where I don't do any internet for a few days to a week. > > Yes, just addiction to the internet, it aggravates me. People here have been hearing me talk about quitting for years. I stopped drinking with hardly any trouble at all, after 25 years of having a drink or more a day, without fail. But the internet is harder. *No reason to quit? People like me, who live in the sticks, learn via the internet but I also do CDs and DVDs. > > Also, i tend to get in trouble here and make controversial statements but then fail to stick around to defend them. I think that is a form of wrong speech, and my primary concern as a Buddhist is to avoid performing akusala kamma patha, bad deeds that are of the degree to condition unfavourable rebirth. But on the other hand, discussing Dhamma is a good deed. I'll be back at some point, probably tomorrow! haha. Welcome to the club. I have been told that virtually everything I post is controversial. Like, if I post about my horse, Redford, or anything that is not suttras, I guess. I thank God for moderation as I've been on unmoderated groups and it really can get disturbing. > > Anyway, if you are still reading this, I deeply appreciate the time you have taken to answer my posts. Your posts are full of insight. > > > > See you soon, I hope, Phil :-) > > Thank you Arianna, have a wonderful time in Hawaii, and carry on with your wonderfully creative inspiration-seeking endeavours! > > Metta, > > Phil > Thanks, Phil. Best, Ari #110275 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah a_true_lotus Hi Sarah, > You're asking many good questions! Who am I? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "a_true_lotus" wrote: > > OK. It's hard to believe that thinking is not "I", as we are structured with thoughts and habits that make us, us. > ... > S: I agree that it seems like that, it really seems like they are "my" thoughts, my habits, my thinking. In fact, now, there is just thinking. Uh, but doesn't thinking come from us? If we are killed, we stop thinking? If awareness is aware of thinking, that's all it is - no "me" in it. I kind of see that. By understanding these various phenomena as they actually are, gradually there will be more detachment from the idea of "I" having such thoughts, habits, personality and so on. Just dhammas rolling on! OK, it still seems like I am thinking. Even if I am meditating, it seems like I am meditating. > > >S: When we ask such questions, isn't it true as the Buddha taught that actually there is no "I" to be found anywhere? > > > A:> Well, I'm not that advanced, I guess. We went to this charity event, and I drank too much and had a miserable night's sleep and so suffered most of the next day. Not really a hangover, but just feeling crappy due to insomnia. > > > > So, I was resting on my bed, and I asked "who am I?" and the answer was "I'm a depressed woman laying in bed". That seemed to be the answer. > .... > S: At such moments of thinking like this, isn't the reality again just various kinds of thinking - in this case thinking about oneself in such and such a state? Can there be awareness now for a moment of thinking as just thinking, no "Ari" in it? *That is kind of blowing my mind. Thinking as just thinking? But thinking comes from my brain, and so it is of "me", isn't it? *I can do an exercise where I eliminate myself from the picture, but really, when I go back to normal thinking, I'm still going to think that I am thinking, you know what I mean? We usually find our various thinking about various ideas rather important, but actually, aren't these moments just fleeting, insignificant phenomena, "namas", passing on? *That, I understand! Thoughts go through my meditation, slowly, but are there. Then I'll think about my dental appointment, or I'll think about something else, and I would guess that as one gathers experience in life, that thinking would chage, but you don't notice it unless you keep a journal or something. I can go back and read journals from my early 20's and while I find some personality traits - like similar like problems with anxiety, I do think much differently now that I am 48. But the thoughts do seem like they are coming from me, and if I write a journal, that is coming from me. But, I guess I'd have to admit that "me" or "I" changes. > > >S: So I think you'll never find any idea about who you are or "who I am", because this "I" is just a figment of our imaginations that we cling to all day long. > ... > > Thanks for your post, Sarah. > ... > S: Thank you, Ari, for your comments and daily life examples which can all be discussed in the light of the Buddha's teachings. In his wisdom, he knew that all beings wander on ignorantly and recklessly in samsara, blind to the truth which only he could reveal out of his compassion for us. Thank you. I was really hated for mentioning my life experiences and am hesitant to do it again. I think it arose from the fact that we are not having hard economic times, and others are. So, then when I talk about going to Maui, or my horse that cost $1500/ month for board and riding lessons, other people get upset. > Let me know how the comments above sound. Well, how can it be that thinking is just thinking. I'm sitting in a chair. The chair isn't thinking. I am near my dogs, they think, but not in the same way as humans. Thinking comes from the brain, no? I find that part a little confusing. I remember reading about Sri Aurobindo and this notion that thoughts are just floating around, and you are an antenna, attract thoughts by your current spiritual level. Is it like that? That thoughts are just floating around? > > Metta > > Sarah > > p.s Pls remember to address "Sarah", "Phil", "All" or whoever it is at the top of your posts, so we can all quickly see at a glance who they're addressed to. Thanks in advance. Sure. #110276 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:46 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (1100026) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > To my understanding, the explanation given in this sutta is exactly the same as the explanation given in other suttas, namely, by developing awareness of presently arisen dhammas (see further below). > > I have no problem with that! I do have a problem with meditation practices being seen as the Demon of All Akusala and Self-View, instead of a treasured practice of the Buddha - a setting in which exactly what you are saying can take place! =============== J: Yes, you have a problem with that, and I have a problem with folks taking the teaching on anapanasati as an endorsement for a `meditation practice' approach! Of course, much depends on what is understood by `meditation practice', but so far nobody using this expression has been able to say what they mean by it. I do wish people would take the trouble to clarify their use of terms before launching into a rant ;-)) =============== > It seems to me that Buddha openly advocating these practices. There was no admonition for "only the most advanced" to practice anapanasati. =============== J: But those being addressed were clearly all well advanced in the teachings. =============== > Buddha said this is the way to discern the realities that lead to enlightenment, plain and simple. =============== J: I question this interpretation of the sutta. As pointed out in a recent message, the Buddha explained how anapanasati could be developed so as to lead to enlightenment. This is by no means the same as saying that `anapanasati is the way to discern the realities that lead to enlightenment'. =============== > This idea that we can't possibly understand the strange and ancient unspoken understandings of breathing meditation - a simple and universal meditation object that has arisen naturally in every culture in the history of the world - just seems thoroughly mythological to me. =============== J: That's not quite the point I've been making. What concerns me is the idea that for the person who has not yet developed either samatha or awareness, anapanasati leading to jhana is the way recommended by the Buddha to develop awareness/insight. I think the idea of anapanasati as the way to the development of insight completely misses the point of the sutta. Such an interpretation would not be consistent with the rest of the sutta pitaka. =============== > Both vipassana and samatha are necessary for awakening. In the Buddha's teaching, samatha allows for sati to more clearly discern realities and develop vipassana. =============== J: I think the widely held view that samatha (especially at the level of jhana, when the hindrances are suppressed) allows for sati to more clearly discern realities and develop vipassana is an `interpretation' that does not find any direct support in the texts. The view is based, I believe, on the description in the suttas of the hindrances as being an obstacle to awareness/insight. Which of course they are, whenever they are present (but not when they are latent). But this description cannot be taken to mean that sati is more readily developed if samatha is developed first, as that runs directly counter to the idea that it is the development of awareness of a presently arising dhamma that is the path. =============== > Dry insight is a possibility, but sati "lubricated" by samatha or its deeper development in jhana, is a more effective complete path. The breath is able to develop both, as an object that affects samatha directly, and as an object of sati. In different verses one or the other may be emphasized, but in anapanasati both work together. =============== J: The terms `dry insight attainer' and `samatha vehicle' as used in the texts are post hoc descriptions -- i.e., applied to those who have already attained enlightenment, as a way of classifying how that occurred -- and are not meant to describe alternative paths to be selected by the worldling. It is also worth noting that in this classification no particular prominence is given to anapanasati over other objects of samatha development; it refers to jhana in general. =============== > As for developing the "same mindfulness of presently arising dhammas as for others," I would say that depending on the individual, anapanasati might be the most effective vehicle, or another method of discernment might be more effective, such as dry insight. For those who follow it through though, I think the Buddha considered anapansati as a most effective vehicle for development of sati, vipassana, jhana and satipatthana. =============== J: I do not think the Buddha ever said or implied that anapanasati was a `vehicle' for the development of satipatthana/vipassana. I think that the anapanasati sutta needs to be read in the context of the occasion on which it was given: a teaching to monks of already highly developed samatha and vipassana. =============== > I notice that I sit when I sit, read sutta when I read sutta, and discuss things with you on dsg when I am doing that, so I feel that all my activities are proceeding along properly according to conditions. :-) =============== J: Well of course are proceeding according to conditions, but then that goes for everyone ;-)). Jon #110277 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:49 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (110028) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > Hm....that's not saying you don't agree with it. Please write me privately if the physical universe does not in fact exist. ;-) =============== J: My subjective experience regarding the `physical universe' is no doubt much the same as yours. So what's there to say anyway? ;-)) Jon #110278 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:50 pm Subject: Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I appreciate it that you have so much interest in commentaries. > In my Series on the Abhidhamma I end up with a short description of > all the seven books. Now almost the last one on the Pa.t.thaana. > THis is the beginning:< The Abhidhamma consists of the following > seven books: > 1.Dhammasanga.nii (translated as 'Buddhist Psychological Ethics', > P.T.S. and also translated by U Kyaw, Myanmar.) > 2.Vibha"nga (translated as 'Book of Analysis', P.T.S.) > 3.Dhaatukathaa (Translated as 'Discourse on Elements', P.T.S.) > 4. Puggalapa~n~natti (Translated as 'A Designation of Human Types', > P.T.S.) > 5.Kathaavatthu (Translated as 'Points of Controversy', P.T.S.) > 6.Yamaka (the Book of Pairs, not translated into English) > 7.Pa.t.thaana (Translated in part as 'Conditional Relations', P.T.S. ) > ------ ... Thanks for this information, Nina! I have copied it into a file so I can use it for reference. I will also look for some of the commentary discussions that have appeared in dsg. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110279 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:06 am Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3a epsteinrob Hi Rob K and All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Sarah > """When he heard the voices of the Devas, Pacceka Buddha Matanga > reflected, "A Bodhisatta has been born. He will be the future Buddha. > //Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu//." He saw that the worlds of the Devas, Brahmas, > and humans were filled with joy. Then he used his supernormal mental > powers (abhinna) to see when his own life would come to an end. He found > that he would attain Parinibbana that same day. So he went through the air > to the mountain named Mahapapata, a mountain in the Himalayas where all > Pacceka Buddhas attain Parinibbana. ... Wow! What a great story! I'm working backwards to check out different commentaries and this is the first one I came to. Glad I did! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110280 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:16 am Subject: Re: memories of the late Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. gazita2002 hallo Nina and Lukas, I posted some comments last evening however, it seems to have gone elsewhere - strange 'bout that! I had lost my little book of scribbles from my Ven Dhammadharo days but found it again..... " each moment of right understanding gradually eliminates wrong understanding but we should understand that it takes a long time" "if no awareness arises to experience, say seeing, can there be anything else which is aware??" "no, indeed not!" "the dhamma of the Lord Buddha is deep and difficult to understand and cannot be realiaed without studying what he said" "supposing some people keep asking difficult questions - ones they want answers for - these people want to be satisfied but there are many questions which cannot be answered to satisfy someones's possible lobha" patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > I am trying to remember more about Ven. Dhammadharo's sayings. > When we were on an India trip in Calcutta I asked him to speak into > my recorder a message for Lodewijk in Holland. He reminded us that we > are clinging to the company of people. In reality there is no > Lodewijk in Holland, no Nina in Calcutta. It was more or less the > same as what Kh Sujin said about 'being alone'. > >..... #110281 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:13 am Subject: Re: Cittas - sub-moments epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > One of the topics you raised relates to the "sub-moments" of cittas as discussed in the suttas and Abhidhamma. If you look in UP under "cittas - sub-moments", you'll find more. > On this point, B.Bodhi et al give this Guide note in C.M.A. (translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha). [Btw, if you're wishing to become more familiar with > the Abhidhamma, this is a very useful reference text.]: > > Ch VI, guide to #6 > > "The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkha.na). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly infinitesimal, each mind-moment in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising (uppaada), presence (.thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters in a stream. > > "....The Vibhaavinii [S: commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha] points out that the sub-moment of presence is a stage in the occurrence of a dhamma separate from the stages of arising and dissolution, during which the dhamma "stands facing its own dissolution" (bhangaabhimukhaavathaa)......Many commentators take the presence moment to be implied by the Buddha's statement: "There are three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned: arising, passing away, and the alteration of that which stands" (A.3:47/i,152). Here the presence moment is identified with "the alteration of that which stands" (.thitassa a~n~nathatta)." Continuing to work my way backwards through commentarial threads, I found this segment from B. Bodhi translation quite illuminating. There is a particular expression that is significant to me: ""The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkha.na)." This is obviously very basic, but you never know what's going to hit you. The idea of a "mind-moment" makes clear to me what a citta is in a way that I hadn't understood before. Rather than being abstract, this connects the citta to the passage of mental experience, a unit of apprehension, which makes sense to me. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110282 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:27 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Hello Jon, Robert E, all, > J: Yes, you have a problem with that, and I have a problem with >folks taking the teaching on anapanasati as an endorsement for a >`meditation practice' approach! But this is what the suttas have said. This is also what commentaries, that are supposed to make suttas clearer, also say. When they say "do this, do that" I do not think that it is wise to say that what they really mean is that one should not do this, and should not do that". WHy wouldn't the suttas and the commentaries (such as VsM) clearly state that anapanasati should not be "formally" done? Where is there such a thing said? It seems like "no-practice" is entirely modern invention of a certain teacher... Anapanasati VsM VIII VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. ====== This commentary is clear about intentional actions being done. Also: 189. Here are the stages in giving attention to it: (1) counting, (2) connexion, (3) touching, (4) fixing, (5) observing, (6) turning away, (7) purification, and (8) looking back on these. Herein, counting is just counting, connexion is carrying on, touching is the place touched [by the breaths], fixing is absorption, observing is insight, turning away is the path, purification is fruition, looking back on these is reviewing. 190. 1. Herein, this clansman who is a beginner should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. VsM VIII ====== How isnt't "1) counting, (2) connexion, (3) touching, (4) fixing, (5) observing, (6) turning away, (7) purification, and (8) looking back on these." an intentional action that should be done? Why should one ignore the direct instructions on what should be done written in VsM? Where does it say that one shouldn't do the "shoulds" found in VsM? Isn't this just a later invention of one certain teacher? With metta, Alex #110283 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:57 pm Subject: Uprooting Mental Fermentation! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the Fruits of the 5 Mental Abilities? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these five mental abilities. What five? The ability of Faith (saddha- ) The ability of Energy (viriya ) The ability of Awareness (sati ) The ability of Concentration (sama-dhi ) The ability of Understanding (pañña ) These are the five abilities. It is, Bhikkhus, because he has developed and cultivated these 5 abilities, that a Bhikkhu, by the destruction of the fermentations , in this very life enters and dwells in the stainless liberation of mind, released by wisdom, realizing it for himself with direct experience and complete understanding! Comments: The 4 mental fermentations are wrong, false & hidden assumptions associated with: 1: Sense-desire (ka-ma-sava). Ex: "Sensing is only and always pleasant. Pain doesn't exist!" 2: Desiring becoming into new existence (bhava-sava): Ex: "All life is good. Death doesn't exist!" 3: Wrong views (dittha-sava): Ex: "I am better, know better and what I think is never wrong!" 4: Ignorance (avijja-sava): Ex: "Suffering, craving, ending craving & the Noble Way don't exist!" All beings can train their mental abilities! <.... Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nika-ya. Book [V: 203] 48 The Mental Abilities: 20 Fermentation free.. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ * <...> #110284 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:54 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Alex (110039) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > J: What the Buddha did in fact was to explain (quoting now from >the words of the sutta) "how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is >developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to >their culmination". > > Right. Anapanasati is to be developed and its development realizes satipatthana and can lead up to Arhatship. =============== J: I do not see it that way at all. The monk described in the sutta had already been developing both samatha and vipassana; it is not as though he is just developing anapanasati and then, having attained jhana, suddenly discerns dhammas for the first time. Consider the significance of the words `having established mindfulness in front of him' -- see Vism Ch. VIII, par. 142 and the commentary on those words at par. 161, 162. Jon #110285 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cittas - sub-moments nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 28-sep-2010, om 4:13 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > The idea of a "mind-moment" makes clear to me what a citta is in a > way that I hadn't understood before. Rather than being abstract, > this connects the citta to the passage of mental experience, a unit > of apprehension, which makes sense to me. ------- N: I quote from my 'The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena' about the moments of ruupa: < The Dhammasanga?i (? 596) incorporates in the list of the twentyeight kinds of r?pa not only r?pas with their own distinct nature but also qualities of r?pa and characteristics of r?pa. It mentions four different r?pas which are characteristics of r?pa, lakkhana r?pas (lakkhana means characteristic). These four characteristics common to all sabh?va r?pas are the following: arising or origination (upacaya) continuity or development (santati) decay or ageing (jarat?) falling away or impermanence (aniccat?) R?pas do not arise singly, they arise in different groups (kal?pas). The groups of r?pa arise and fall away, but they do not fall away as rapidly as citta. R?pa lasts as long as the duration of seventeen moments of citta arising and falling away, succeeding one another. After the arising of r?pa there are moments of its presence: its continuity or development. Decay, jarat? r?pa, is the characteristic indicating the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccat? r?pa, is the characteristic indicating the moment of its falling away. We do not notice that the r?pas of our body fall away and that time and again new r?pas are produced which fall away again. So long as we are alive, kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition produce r?pas and thus our bodily functions can continue. These r?pas arise, develop, decay and fall away within splitseconds. > I still have spare copies, no trouble to send it, although your bookcases must be overloaded. Nina. #110286 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: memories of the late Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. nilovg Dear Azita, Op 28-sep-2010, om 3:16 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > supposing some people keep asking difficult questions - ones they > want answers for - these people want to be satisfied but there are > many questions which cannot be answered to satisfy someones's > possible lobha" ------ N: Thank you for this. I remember that he stressed that people who ask questions should investigate the cittas that motivate asking. It may be lobha, and also impatience. One has no patience to find out for oneself and wants to hear the answer immediately. When he had disrobed he often accompanied Kh Sujin on her trips in Thailand and helped with Dhamma dialogues. I remember that he wanted to give something to somebody but went away first. When he returned that person had gone. He saw it as a lesson not to delay kusala. The person we want to give something to may have died and we have lost the opportunity. Nina. #110287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:00 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 30. The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 7). nilovg Dear friends, The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 7) The Seventh Book of the Abhidhamma is the ?Pa.t.thaana? (translated partly by the Venerable U Naarada as Conditional Relations). The translator also wrote a ?Guide to Conditional Relations? with many explanations. The ?Pa.t.thaana? describes in detail all possible relations between phenomena. There are twentyfour classes of conditions. Each reality in our life can only occur because of a concurrence of different conditions which operate in a very intricate way. These conditions are not abstractions, they operate now, in our daily life. What we take for our mind and our body are mere elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and are devoid of self. We should consider the conditions for the bodily phenomena which arise and fall away all the time. At the first moment of our life kamma produced the heart-base and other ruupas together with the rebirth-consciousness, and throughout our life kamma continues to produce the heartbase and the sense-bases. Not only kamma, but also citta, heat and nutrition produce ruupas of the body. The cittas which arise are dependent on many different conditions. We tend to forget that seeing is only a conditioned reality and that visible object is only a conditioned reality, and therefore we are easily carried away by sense impressions. Each citta experiences an object, be it a sense object or a mental object, and the object conditions citta by object-condition, aaramma.na-paccaya. It is beneficial to remember that seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are vipaakacittas, cittas which are results of kamma. They arise at their appropriate bases, vatthus, which are also produced by kamma. Hearing is conditioned by sound which impinges on the earsense. Both sound and earsense are ruupas which also arise because of their own conditions and fall away. Thus, hearing, the reality which they condition, cannot last either; it also has to fall away. Each conditioned reality can exist just for an extremely short moment. When we understand this it will be easier to see that there is no self who can exert control over realities. How could we control what falls away immediately? When we move our hands, when we walk, when we laugh or cry, when we are attached or worried, there are conditions for such moments. Cittas succeed one another without any interval. The citta that has just fallen away conditions the succeeding citta and this is by way of proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya. Seeing arises time and again and after seeing has fallen away akusala cittas usually arise. In each process of cittas there are, after the sense-cognitions have fallen away, several moments of kusala cittas or akusala cittas, called javana-cittas. These experience the object in a wholesome way or unwholesome way. There are usually seven javana-cittas and each preceding javana-citta conditions the following one by way of repetition-condition, aasevana-paccaya. We cling to visible object, or we have wrong view about it, taking it for a being or a person that really exists. Defilements arise because they have been accumulated and they are carried on, from moment to moment, from life to life. They are a natural decisive support- condition, pakatuupanissaya-paccaya, for akusala citta arising at this moment. The study of conditions helps us to have more understanding of the ?Dependent Origination?. It is necessary to know which conditioning factors are conascent with the dhamma they condition and which are not. Each link of the Dependent Origination conditions the following one by way of several types of conditions. The ?Pa.t.thaana? helps us to understand the deep underlying motives for our behaviour and the conditions for our defilements. It explains, for example, that kusala, wholesomeness, can be the object of akusala citta, unwholesome citta. On account of generosity which is wholesome, attachment, wrong view or conceit, which are unwholesome realities, can arise. The ?Pa.t.thaana? also explains that akusala can be the object of kusala, for example, when akusala is considered with insight. This is an essential point which is often overlooked. If one thinks that akusala cannot be object of awareness and right understanding, the eightfold Path cannot be developed. -------- Conclusion: All of the texts of the Tipi.taka , including the Abhidhamma, are not meant merely for intellectual study or memorizing, they are directed to the practice, the development of vipassanaa. All the classifications of cittas, cetasikas and ruupas are terse reminders of the truth, they are an exhortation to develop understanding of what appears at this moment. This is the development of the eightfold Path leading to the eradication of all defilements. (The end) --------- Nina. #110288 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (110039) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello Jon, all, > > > > > J: What the Buddha did in fact was to explain (quoting now from >the words of the sutta) "how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is >developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to >their culmination". > > > > Right. Anapanasati is to be developed and its development realizes satipatthana and can lead up to Arhatship. > =============== > > J: I do not see it that way at all. The monk described in the sutta had already been developing both samatha and vipassana; And how did he develop both samatha and vipassana? Most likely through more breathing meditation! Maybe anapanasati Pt. I is missing. > it is not as though he is just developing anapanasati and then, having attained jhana, suddenly discerns dhammas for the first time. No one would suggest that, but that doesn't mean that a/ it isn't a practice being recommended, and b/ that there isn't an equivalent "beginner's" technique for basic development of samatha and sati. It is the opinion of many teachers that the first stanzas dealing with long and short breaths and being fully mindful of breath and body do represent the basic approach to developing sati and samatha. > Consider the significance of the words `having established mindfulness in front of him' -- see Vism Ch. VIII, par. 142 and the commentary on those words at par. 161, 162. One can start out by concentrating fully, putting mindfulness to the fore etc, without implying that the practitioner has perfectly established mindfulness that is unwavering. That seems to me to be indicating a strong intention to focus with mindfulness, rather than a final result before one has hardly sat down. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110289 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:57 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (110039) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello Jon, all, > > > > > J: What the Buddha did in fact was to explain (quoting now from >the words of the sutta) "how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is >developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to >their culmination". > > > > Right. Anapanasati is to be developed and its development realizes satipatthana and can lead up to Arhatship. > =============== > > J: I do not see it that way at all. The monk described in the sutta had already been developing both samatha and vipassana; it is not as though he is just developing anapanasati and then, having attained jhana, suddenly discerns dhammas for the first time. > > Consider the significance of the words `having established mindfulness in front of him' -- see Vism Ch. VIII, par. 142 and the commentary on those words at par. 161, 162. Bikkhu Bodhi expressed a view on some of these similar statements, particularly one that suggests that he has put aside the 5 hindrances before sitting down to practice in the Satipatthana Sutta, that this is an intention that one begins with, and then one continues to encounter the hindrances arising and deals with them each time they do. That would be similar to "having established mindfulness in front of him." For almost anyone, they would begin with concentration and mindful awareness, but it would have to be reestablished several times throughout the period of sitting. It is the practice that develops mindfulness fully. Therefore it would not be fully established before the practice takes place. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110290 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cittas - sub-moments epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > We do not notice that the r?pas of our body fall away and that time > and again new r?pas are produced which fall away again. So long as we > are alive, kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition produce r?pas and > thus our bodily functions can continue. These r?pas arise, develop, > decay and fall away within splitseconds. > > > I still have spare copies, no trouble to send it, although your > bookcases must be overloaded. Thank you, Nina. I think I will wait to catch up a bit before adding any more books, but that is very kind. The quote you gave is helpful in seeing the time scheme between cittas and rupas, and the different stages of rupa development and decay that the citta may encounter, depending on what point in the process the citta arises. In the meantime, I have your book on conditions, which I am very interested in, and K. Sujin's Survey, which is very nicely written. I am mainly reading excerpts, but I do get a lot out of them. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110291 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. epsteinrob Thank you pt. I appreciate that good info! Best, Robert E. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Anusaya series can be found in the useful posts file: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm > > See the posts in these UP topics: > -"Yamaka" > -"Anusaya" ... #110292 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:48 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (110028) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > Hm....that's not saying you don't agree with it. Please write me privately if the physical universe does not in fact exist. ;-) > =============== > > J: My subjective experience regarding the `physical universe' is no doubt much the same as yours. So what's there to say anyway? ;-)) Hm..... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110293 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:31 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" > Hi Alex > > (110039) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello Jon, all, > > > > > J: What the Buddha did in fact was to explain (quoting now from >the words of the sutta) "how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is >developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to >their culmination". > > > > Right. Anapanasati is to be developed and its development realizes satipatthana and can lead up to Arhatship. > =============== > > J: I do not see it that way at all. You disagree with VsM and suttas on how Anapanasati is *to be developed*? >The monk described in the sutta had already been developing both samatha and vipassana; it is not as though he is just developing anapanasati and then, having attained jhana, suddenly discerns dhammas for the first time. > > Consider the significance of the words `having established mindfulness in front of him' -- see Vism Ch. VIII, par. 142 and the commentary on those words at par. 161, 162. > > Jon But do you agree that those parts that I have quoted do talk about a formal practice, just for an advanced meditator. VsM VIII,142 seems to talk about something else "But several first jhanas, according to the number of parts, are produced in one to whom several parts have become evident, or who has reached jhana in one and also makes further effort about another. As in the case of the Elder Mallaka. [266]" As for VsM 161,162 (pali fonts messed up, so I took them out) 161. Established mindfulness in front of him = having placed mindfulness facing the meditation subject . Or alternatively, the meaning can be treated here too according to the method of explanation given in the Patisambhida, which is this: Pari has the sense of control , has the sense of outlet , sati has the sense of establishment ; that is why parimukham sati ("mindfulness as a controlled outlet") is said' (Ps.i,176). The meaning of it in brief is: Having made mindfulness the outlet [from opposition, forgetfulness being thereby] controlled.44 162. Ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out: having seated himself thus, having established mindfulness thus, the bhikkhu does not abandon that mindfulness; ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out; he is a mindful worker, is what is meant. ======= How isn't VsM VIII,162 not an instruction on things to do and postures to adopt "having seated himself"? With metta, Alex #110294 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:17 pm Subject: Genuine Goodwill! bhikkhu5 Friends: Genuine Goodwill Blazes & Shines! The blessed Buddha once said: Among tigers, lions, leopards and bears I lived in the jungle. None of them was frightened of me, nor did I fear any of them! Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the deep forest. Finding great solace in such sweet and silenced solitude? Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of all bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend too of any many-footed! Anguttara Nikaya IV 67 May all creatures, all breathing things; All beings, one and all, without exception, Experience good fortune only! :-) May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikaya II 72 With good will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate an infinite heart and mind: Beaming above, below, and all around, Unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipata I <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110295 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi Jon and all I think Jon has his hands full with a few other threads, so I will open this question to the floor. How are we to understand the "clansman who is a beginner" who appears in Vism in VIII 190, and I imagine other places: "This clansman who is a biegginer should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. And when counting, he should not stop short of five or go beyond ten..." and there follows detailed instructions on counting the breath. Are we to understand that this clansman has some special inherited wisdom (although a beginner) that makes him do what is written in Vism by some kind of acculated "wisdom of the ancients." Is there anything taught anywhere that indicates that the instructions in Vism are not instructions in meditation intended for beginners, people who are new to the development of samatha. I can understand the reasons for questioning whether people in this day and age have the conditions to follow the instructions (though not sure why A.Sujin feels the need to do so, why not live and let live and concentrate on her own approach...I guess her approach contains an implicit need to analyze others' practices in the name of "right view") but denying that they are instructions and insisting that people in Buddhaghosa's had special accumlated wisdom by virtue of living historically closer to the Buddha seems bizarre to me. I am happy to be de-bizarred on this point...if there is anything in the texts that explains why people in the day of Buddhaghosa had special conditions for applying the instructions or whatever else one chooses to try to call such detailed, ordered, imperative-toned "should" laden teachings... I would just like to read whatever people have to say on this, I don't understand enough to argue back, just looking for a clear explanation. Sorry, I know I've been offered explanations in the past, but I guess they didn't click because I don't remember them, and I tend to remember a lot that has been written here... Thanks, and no hostility intended, believe me... Metta, Phil #110296 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:45 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi again. Just realized that when I mentionned "live and let live" that could also and maybe even more so to those of us who resist A.Sujin and insist on trying to set her and her students right on meditation, maybe we should also live and let live and move on. But I guess both sides (and let's not pretend there are not two sides of the issue) benefit in a way from each other. Meditators have their confidence in the practice strengthened, students of A. Sujin have their certainty that they are on the right path strengthened by seeing the wrong view in the meditators. Are saddha would be on less firm ground if we weren't able to see others going wrong, I guess... And of course right speech is developed by having our views challenged and responding in a courteous way, I am really impressed by how courteous everyone here has become...I remember M.Niece(sp?) saying that as for as he was concerned the friendly tone of a post was as important as the content, I agree entirely. Metta, Phil #110297 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:42 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Phil, As you will expect, I am just going to tell you the same old thing I always tell you. So humour me if you can; it keeps me happy. ---- Ph: > How are we to understand the "clansman who is a beginner" who appears in Vism in VIII 190, and I imagine other places: "This clansman who is a biegginer should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. <. . .> ---- If you base your Dhamma studies on the understanding *there are only dhammas* problems such as the ones you are having here simply won't arise. --------- Ph: > Is there anything taught anywhere that indicates that the instructions in Vism are not instructions in meditation intended for beginners, people who are new to the development of samatha. --------- Assume, for argument's sake, that the Vism contains detailed instructions for travelling from town A to town B. Are there, in reality, any towns? Are there, in reality, any travellers? No there aren't - there are only the presently arisen dhammas- and the Vism would never suggest otherwise. Similarly, the Vism would never suggest there was a "person" who was a beginner and who needed to develop samatha or vipassana. So read the extract again with that in mind. You might learn something about the dhammas that are arising now. -------------------- Ph: > I can understand the reasons for questioning whether people in this day and age have the conditions to follow the instructions (though not sure why A.Sujin feels the need to do so, why not live and let live and concentrate on her own approach...I guess her approach contains an implicit need to analyze others' practices in the name of "right view") --------------------- K Sujin is not an internet troll or a dojo buster. People come to her with questions and she answers them in accordance with the Dhamma. -------------------------------- Ph: > but denying that they are instructions and ------------------------------- No matter whether you are talking about instructions or descriptions, just remember there are only dhammas. And remember that the texts agree there are only dhammas. Then you can begin to see what the Vism is talking about in this case. ------------------------ Ph: > insisting that people in Buddhaghosa's had special accumlated wisdom by virtue of living historically closer to the Buddha seems bizarre to me. I am happy to be de-bizarred on this point...if there is anything in the texts that explains why people in the day of Buddhaghosa had special conditions for applying the instructions or whatever else one chooses to try to call such detailed, ordered, imperative-toned "should" laden teachings... ------------------------ Now, or in Buddhaghosa's time, it's always just a matter of right understanding. Ken H #110298 From: "egberdina" Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:25 pm Subject: Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner egberdina Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Phil, > > As you will expect, I am just going to tell you the same old thing I always tell you. So humour me if you can; it keeps me happy. > > ---- > Ph: > How are we to understand the "clansman who is a beginner" who appears in Vism in VIII 190, and I imagine other places: > > "This clansman who is a biegginer should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. <. . .> > ---- > > If you base your Dhamma studies on the understanding *there are only dhammas* problems such as the ones you are having here simply won't arise. > > --------- Through a number of coincidences, I now have more than a sneaking suspicion that we may actually be meeting soon, in the flesh. To say that I am looking forward to the prospect is an understatement. I'll give you fair warning, I have already decided that meeting you will be fantastic. In saying that, I am not expecting you to live up to some standard of you that I have constructed in your absence, but only that meeting you has been "one of the things I must do before I die" for about 5 years or more. Anyways, I thought I might initiate a conversation with you now, so that by the time we clink our light beers (or some other liquid), we can amicably get straight to the crux of the biscuit. You have consistently maintained that there are only dhammas. I do believe that I understand what you mean by that. And to a certain extent I agree. I would only need to remove the word "only" to be in total agreement with you. Because, when we meet, not only will I understand that there are impersonal, impermanent dhammas that lend themselves as fodder for suffering, which is yet more dhammas, but I will also understand that I am talking to Howard AKA KenH. For if I didn't understand that, our conversation could not proceed. In other words, "conventional" reality also is real enough, real enough to the point that we live it, most of the time. How say you, KenH? Cheers Herman #110299 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:59 am Subject: Rob and Mel's pic sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, Great to see your "overly happy on vacation" pic with your wife Mel:-) It was actually you who started the DSG photo album over 10 years ago and I think you were even responsible for rounding up the pics of newcomers. Hope you inspire newcomers to add a pic or oldies to give an updated pic... We'll try to catch a few oldies here in Manly when we have our next Dhamma gathering. Pt, you can take the pic, so you'll get an older and wiser Jon and I too:-). Enjoying all your discussions.... apologies for being behind with my replies. Metta Sarah ====== #110300 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cittas - sub-moments nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 28-sep-2010, om 17:39 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Thank you, Nina. I think I will wait to catch up a bit before > adding any more books, but that is very kind. ------ N: Just let me know when you are ready for it, Nina. #110301 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:55 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi Ken Thanks, and happy to be able to write back to you in a non-aggressive way - not that you are aggressive. > As you will expect, I am just going to tell you the same old thing I always tell you. So humour me if you can; it keeps me happy. > > ---- > Ph: > How are we to understand the "clansman who is a beginner" who appears in Vism in VIII 190, and I imagine other places: > > "This clansman who is a biegginer should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. <. . .> > ---- > > If you base your Dhamma studies on the understanding *there are only dhammas* problems such as the ones you are having here simply won't arise. Ph: No, alas, this doesn't work for me. The understanding "there are only dhammas" is not an understanding I have, so I can't base my Dhamma studies on it. I can say "there are only dhammas", of course, but I can't believe it. I think the Buddha's teaching contains instructions that help to contribute to the arising of the understanding, but we have to start with the level of understanding we have. For me, there is a theoretical understanding that for the when panna develops, there is a true understanding that there are only dhammas, but basing my approach to Dhamma on that seems like a kind of play acting game, a masquerade, a pantomine....I kind find the right word. And most importantly, and undeniably, the Buddha didn't teach in "there are only dhammas" terms to listenerers of a shallow understanding. There is a good reason he told stories about people in narrative situations, he knew that was how he could help foster conditions for the deeper understanding. Thanks Ken. I'll keep waiting for some textual evidence that the instructions in the Vism are not instructions, I just don't get it, it seems very odd! See, that is a function of my shallow understanding, being told by Ken H again and again that there are only dhammas won't do anything about that! The understanding is not there, and I won't pretend it is. Metta, Phil #110302 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:00 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi again >The understanding is not there, and I won't pretend it is. And if the understanding is not there and I won't pretend it is, does that mean I should be shut out of the Buddha's teaching, denied access to it? I don't think so, that is an insult to the Buddha's compassion. He didn't shut the door on people whose understanding was not developed enough to grasp the deep teachings, but it seems to me that that is what you would have him do when you insist on stripping every single one of his teaching down to the barest paramattha terms. He didn't do that, why do you dare to? Metta, Phil #110303 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:06 am Subject: Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner kenhowardau Hi Herman, Welcome back. Glad to see you are in good form! -------------------- H: > Through a number of coincidences, I now have more than a sneaking suspicion that we may actually be meeting soon, in the flesh. To say that I am looking forward to the prospect is an understatement. I'll give you fair warning, I have already decided that meeting you will be fantastic. In saying that, I am not expecting you to live up to some standard of you that I have constructed in your absence, but only that meeting you has been "one of the things I must do before I die" for about 5 years or more. Anyways, I thought I might initiate a conversation with you now, so that by the time we clink our light beers (or some other liquid), we can amicably get straight to the crux of the biscuit. -------------------- You are very kind, I look forward to meeting you too. Let me assure you, however, that meeting me will not be "fantastic." It never has been for anyone else, and it won't be for you. :-) -------------------------- H: > You have consistently maintained that there are only dhammas. I do believe that I understand what you mean by that. And to a certain extent I agree. I would only need to remove the word "only" to be in total agreement with you. Because, when we meet, not only will I understand that there are impersonal, impermanent dhammas that lend themselves as fodder for suffering, which is yet more dhammas, but I will also understand that I am talking to Howard AKA KenH. For if I didn't understand that, our conversation could not proceed. In other words, "conventional" reality also is real enough, real enough to the point that we live it, most of the time. How say you, KenH? ----------------------------- You must understand, Herman, that conventional reality is not really a reality. Nor does it need to be understood (misunderstood) as a real reality in order for us to make use of it. People can operate very successfully in the conventionally known world without having a view about its ultimate reality or unreality. Dhammas are the only things we need to have a view about. When we consider dhammas we need to understand they are "the all." They are the only reality. Comprende? Ken H #110304 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Jon & all) - In a message dated 9/28/2010 11:10:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Jon and all I think Jon has his hands full with a few other threads, so I will open this question to the floor. How are we to understand the "clansman who is a beginner" who appears in Vism in VIII 190, and I imagine other places: "This clansman who is a biegginer should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. And when counting, he should not stop short of five or go beyond ten..." and there follows detailed instructions on counting the breath. Are we to understand that this clansman has some special inherited wisdom (although a beginner) that makes him do what is written in Vism by some kind of acculated "wisdom of the ancients." Is there anything taught anywhere that indicates that the instructions in Vism are not instructions in meditation intended for beginners, people who are new to the development of samatha. I can understand the reasons for questioning whether people in this day and age have the conditions to follow the instructions (though not sure why A.Sujin feels the need to do so, why not live and let live and concentrate on her own approach...I guess her approach contains an implicit need to analyze others' practices in the name of "right view") but denying that they are instructions and insisting that people in Buddhaghosa's had special accumlated wisdom by virtue of living historically closer to the Buddha seems bizarre to me. I am happy to be de-bizarred on this point...if there is anything in the texts that explains why people in the day of Buddhaghosa had special conditions for applying the instructions or whatever else one chooses to try to call such detailed, ordered, imperative-toned "should" laden teachings... I would just like to read whatever people have to say on this, I don't understand enough to argue back, just looking for a clear explanation. Sorry, I know I've been offered explanations in the past, but I guess they didn't click because I don't remember them, and I tend to remember a lot that has been written here... Thanks, and no hostility intended, believe me... Metta, Phil ================================ Phil!! Shhh!!!! ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110305 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:18 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Phil, ---------- <. . .> PH: > And if the understanding is not there and I won't pretend it is, does that mean I should be shut out of the Buddha's teaching, denied access to it? ----------- No. -------------- Ph: > I don't think so, that is an insult to the Buddha's compassion. He didn't shut the door on people whose understanding was not developed enough to grasp the deep teachings, but it seems to me that that is what you would have him do when you insist on stripping every single one of his teaching down to the barest paramattha terms. He didn't do that, why do you dare to? -------------- The way I see it, we are all (the wise and the not-so-wise alike) listening to the Dhamma, considering it, and discussing it. Desire for right understanding doesn't play a role in any of that. In fact, we would be showing our appreciation of the Dhamma if we simply understood there was wrong understanding, rather than if we desired to replace it with right understanding. Ken H #110306 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:51 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Phil, Alex, KenH, RobE, Jon, I was thinking how to find some common ground here. I think we'd all agree that things stated in Vsm regarding samatha (counting, connexion, fixing, etc) can in practical terms happen in both kusala and akusala manners, though Vsm is most probably only trying to encourage the kusala manner. In my experience, counting, connexion, etc, can certainly be done in an akusala way, usually under the guise of some hindrance (like wanting more connexion now, etc) and it's very hard to tell that it was an akusala endevour that just happened because it can be accompanied by strong concentration and effort, which would then result in some sort of piti which is very pleasant, what would then result in some relaxation, etc. Basically, one of the reasons I concluded that this was akusala was because sometimes there would be a sort of a spontaneous let-go of trying to make the connexion happen for example, and that let-go by itself would be much more calm and without the restlessness (as far as i can tell), so a much better candidate for kusala I guess. On the other hand, I think that I did experience connexion arising a few times in a kusala way, but then as soon as it would disappear, I'd try to replicate that experience by "letting-go" on purpose, and being calm on purpose, and well, that wouldn't be kusala anymore, though of course I quite oblivious of that fact at the time. I guess the explanation is that Akusala/hindrances are hard to spot at the time of arising, since they arise with ignorance as the main root... So, to finally get to the question Phil and Alex were asking - I think that the "beginner" in Vsm is someone who can already tell the difference between kusala and aksuala ways of counting, connexion, etc. I mean, counting, connexion, fixing, etc, can happen in a kusala way (which is what Vsm is trying to encourage in the first place) only when one is able to tell in real time whether there's kusala or akusala currently. In other words, I think that kusala counting, connexion, fixing, etc, are in essence an outcome of a kusala citta with some understanding - so it's not like counting, connexion, fixing, etc, somehow later on bring about (or, result in) kusala cittas with calm, concentration, etc, later on. So, the question is then - okay so how do i get to the point when I'm actually the "beginner" who can tell the difference between a/kusala? I think this simply happens as an outcome of understanding Dhamma relating to the present moment - i.e. when there's enough understanding, then counting, connexion, etc, tend to arise in a (mostly) kusala way already. So, if they are not arising in kusala way now, then there's not enough understnading at the time I guess. But, then it's difficult to gauge - okay, so is this now kusala or akusala counting, conexion, etc?... Difficult. As I said before, I think it's questionable whether one can get to understand the difference between a/kusala by practicing in a formal meditation style, since majority of the practice tends to be akusala - or in meditation speak - the majority of the meditation session is in essence spent in engaging in one hindrance or another (speaking in terms of samatha here). So, then one is in essence developing aksuala, not kusala. I think only once there's enough understanding regarding the difference between a/kusala now, only then the actual samatha practice becomes a natural outcome of that understanding. Best wishes pt > Phil: Are we to understand that this clansman has some special inherited wisdom (although a beginner) that makes him do what is written in Vism by some kind of acculated "wisdom of the ancients." Is there anything taught anywhere that indicates that the instructions in Vism are not instructions in meditation intended for beginners, people who are new to the development of samatha. ... > I would just like to read whatever people have to say on this, I don't understand enough to argue back, just looking for a clear explanation. #110307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:47 am Subject: What I heard.from audio (DSG org), 2007-07-05,a. nilovg Dear friends, from audio (DSG org), 2007-07-05,a. Kh Sujin: The purpose isunderstanding reality right now as not self. Thus, it is not a self who is trying to find different ways to understand realities. Ven. Pannabahulo: The practice is awareness of the present moment. There are always different meditation practices. Kh Sujin: Does the method have anything to do with the understanding of reality right now? There are misunderstandings about understanding reality. One just wants to do something, one just wants to get somthing, not understanding reality right now. Jon: Reading and understanding... Kh Sujin: Reading what? Reading about reality right now. Read about seeing, not self, about visible object, not self. Read about all realities in one?s life as not self. Jon: O.K. one reads about this. Kh Sujin: Just in order to understand. Do you want something beyond that, more than that? Jon: When one reads about realities one has, at that time, understanding of them. Kh Sujin: That is not enough. Read more and understand more, that is the way. Ven. Pannabahulo: It is an activity, one has to apply oneself to it. Kh Sujin: If one ?has to? that is not the understanding at all. Only understanding can eliminate the idea of self and attachment. It is very difficult to eliminate attachment. It takes time to understand this from the very beginning. Ven. Pannabahulo: Understanding seems so very passive, there is no doing, nothing we can do. Kh Sujin: If there is no studying how can one know that there is no self but a conditioned reality which arises to see, to think, to experience an object? Who can know that without studying? Pa~n~naa can develop in order to see reality as it is. When there is clinging, there is no doubt about it, because it has arisen and falls away, all the time. Whatever appears now can be directly experienced. If this were not true it would be useless to talk about all these things. ******** Nina. #110308 From: Herman Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner egberdina Hi Ken H, On 29 September 2010 21:06, Ken H wrote: > H: > You have consistently maintained that there are only dhammas. I do > believe that I understand what you mean by that. And to a certain extent I > agree. I would only need to remove the word "only" to be in total agreement > with you. Because, when we meet, not only will I understand that there are > impersonal, impermanent dhammas that lend themselves as fodder for > suffering, which is yet more dhammas, but I will also understand that I am > talking to Howard AKA KenH. For if I didn't understand that, our > conversation could not proceed. > > > In other words, "conventional" reality also is real enough, real enough to > the point that we live it, most of the time. > > How say you, KenH? > ----------------------------- > > You must understand, Herman, that conventional reality is not really a > reality. > H> Is that like singing to oneself "Life is but a dream"? Nor does it need to be understood (misunderstood) as a real reality in order > for us to make use of it. > > People can operate very successfully in the conventionally known world > without having a view about its ultimate reality or unreality. > > H>I'm not sure that the idea of ultimate reality conveys anything we can talk about. Because the moment we are discussing, we are discussing, and that is the long and short of it, regardless of views about ultimate reality. In a week or so, somehow, both of us will get to North Steyne, and we will see each other, and talk to each other. We may experience that in different ways, but I know that for me to see you and talk to you, that is what I will have to live. It may well happen that during our conversation I slip into the fifth jhana, or thereabouts, but that will not be noticeable for you. Or vice versa. > Dhammas are the only things we need to have a view about. When we consider > dhammas we need to understand they are "the all." They are the only reality. > H>Again, I'm not sure about something. In this case I am not sure that we need to have views about anything. When I am seeing you and talking to you, I certainly won't be singing in my head "Life is but a dream" in order to maintain a view I think I should have. And if I slip into a jhana, or you, so be it. > > Comprende? > > H>Not sure. But time will tell. Herman #110309 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:17 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? truth_aerator Dear PT, all, >Pt: I was thinking how to find some common ground here. I think we'd >all agree that things stated in Vsm regarding samatha (counting, >connexion, fixing, etc) can in practical terms happen in both >kusala and akusala manners, though Vsm is most probably only trying >to encourage the kusala manner. Right. It goes without question that it is important to have enough mindfulness and discernment to do it right. However, IMHO, if one doesn't put in any effort, one will not gain any kusala. The old akusala ways accumulated over aeons would simply overpower one. Without help, the water has only one direction to flow - down the stream, down the path of least resistance. A lot of "constructed activity" and energy is required to make it flow upstream, against the gravity. Same is here. Buddha's N8P is a conditioned path bringing one toward the unconditioned. It is NOT the same as the goal, only the means to get there. With metta, Alex #110310 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner kenhowardau Hi Herman, ------ <. . .> H: > Is that like singing to oneself "Life is but a dream"? ------ It all depends on how your song reached that conclusion. This is definitely not the way: "Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream." Better lyrics would be: "There are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas: Conventional life is but a dream." ------------------- <. . .> H> > I'm not sure that the idea of ultimate reality conveys anything we can talk about. ------------------- It conveys dhammas that we can talk about. ------------ H: > Because the moment we are discussing, we are discussing, and that is the long and short of it, regardless of views about ultimate reality. In a week or so, somehow, both of us will get to North Steyne, and we will see each other, and talk to each other. ------------ Reality in the future will be exactly the way it is now: just a few, drab dhammas that have been conditioned to arise and fall away. ------------------ H: > We may experience that in different ways, but I know that for me to see you and talk to you, that is what I will have to live. It may well happen that during our conversation I slip into the fifth jhana, or thereabouts, but that will not be noticeable for you. Or vice versa. ------------------ It's happened to me before: people have fallen asleep while I was talking and claimed they were meditating! ------------------------- KH: > > Dhammas are the only things we need to have a view about. <. . .> H: > Again, I'm not sure about something. In this case I am not sure that we need to have views about anything. When I am seeing you and talking to you, I certainly won't be singing in my head "Life is but a dream" in order to maintain a view I think I should have. And if I slip into a jhana, or you, so be it. --------------------------- From 3.30 to 5.00 the only topic will be dhammas, and everyone will be required to have a view - or else! Ken H #110311 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:58 pm Subject: Sharing Elevates Your Future! bhikkhu5 Friends: Generosity is the first Perfection: Generosity means willingness to give and share whatever. Generosity means magnanimous and open-handed liberality. Generosity means freedom from small and stingy pettiness. Generosity means practicing charity for the poor and unfortunate. Generosity means kind big-heartedness towards those worthy of it. Generosity means warm-hearted and altruistic unselfishness. Generosity provides the kammic cause for later wealth.. Giving causes Getting... No Giving causes Poverty! The Blessed Buddha explained the treasure of generosity like this: When a disciple of the Noble Ones whose mind and mentality is all cleared of disgracing miserliness, living at home, is freely generous and open-handed, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to every request and, is enjoying the giving of any alms. Such is this treasure called generosity. AN VII 6 Just as a filled pot, which is overturned, pours out all its water, leaving nothing back, even and exactly so should one give to those in need. whether low, middle or high, like the overturned pot, holding nothing back?!!! Jataka Nidana [128-129] The Generosity of Giving, The Kindness in Speech, The Benefit of Service, The Impartiality of treating all Alike, These 4 threads of Sympathy upholds this world, like the axle do the cart! AN II 32 Giving food, one gives and later gets strength Giving clothes, one gives and later gets beauty Giving light, one gives and later gets vision Giving transportation, one gives and later gets ease. Giving shelter one gives all, Yet one who instructs in the True Dhamma - The supreme Teaching of the Buddhas - Such one gives the quite divine ambrosia! SN I 32 These are these five rewards of generosity: One is liked and charming to people at large, One is admired and respected by wise people, One's good reputation is spread wide about, One does not neglect a householder's true duty, and with the break-up of the body - at the moment of death - one reappears in a happy destination, in the plane of the divine worlds! AN V.35 There are these two kinds of gifts: material gifts and gifts of Dhamma. The supreme gift is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: material sharing and sharing of Dhamma. The supreme sharing is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of help: Material help and help with the Dhamma. This is the supreme of the two: help with this subtle Dhamma ? It 98 The gift of Dhamma exceeds all other gifts. Dhammapada 354 The Bodhisatta once as king Sivi gave both his eyes to a beggar who was Sakka the king deity in disguise, who desired to test him. He remembered "While I was wishing to give, while I was giving and after this giving there was neither contrariety, nor opposition in my mind since it was for the purpose of awakening itself! Neither were these eyes, nor the rest of myself disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave both my eyes." The Basket of Conduct Cariyapitaka I-8 Full story: Sivi Jataka no. 499 The Bodhisatta once as the Wise Hare gave his roasted body as alms to a beggar by jumping into a fire: He remembered: "There came a beggar and asked for food. Myself I gave so that he might eat. In alms-giving there was none equal to me. In alms I had thereby reached the absolute ultimate perfection." From then and the rest of this world-cycle the moon will display a characteristic 'hare-in-the-moon' sign! Sasa-Jataka no. 316 Giving of things, treasures, external possessions, job, position, wife, and child is the first perfection of giving. Giving the offer of one's organs, limbs, and senses is the second higher perfection of giving. Giving the sacrifice of one's life is the ultimate perfection of giving. The clarifier of sweet meaning 89 (Commentary on Buddhavamsa) Madhuratthavilasini [59] Venerable Buddhadatta: 5th century. Generosity is the first mental perfection (parami): Clinging and egoism creates internal panic and social tension. Giving and sharing creates internal elation and external harmony... What is gladly given, returns more than thousandfold! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <.... #110312 From: Herman Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner egberdina Hi Ken H, On 30 September 2010 08:42, Ken H wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > ------ > <. . .> > > H: > Is that like singing to oneself "Life is but a dream"? > ------ > > It all depends on how your song reached that conclusion. > > This is definitely not the way: > > "Row, row, row your boat, > Gently down the stream. > Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, > Life is but a dream." > > Better lyrics would be: > > "There are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas: > Conventional life is but a dream." > > I can live with those revised lyrics. What it comes down to is that these presently conditioned dhammas are what constitutes this dream, this conventional life. Saying that there are only conditioned dhammas doesn't alter anything, it is also just part of the dream. > ------------------- > <. . .> > > H> > I'm not sure that the idea of ultimate reality conveys anything we can > talk about. > ------------------- > > It conveys dhammas that we can talk about. > Sure, and when we talk about dhammas, that is the reality of that present moment. Talking about dhammas will be the dream content, or the conventional reality at that time. Talking about dhammas does not wake anyone up, as we know, because there is noone to wake up. Talking about dhammas is merely a modification of conventional reality. Instead of doing A we will be doing B. > > ------------ > H: > Because the moment we are discussing, we are discussing, and that is > the long and short of it, regardless of views about ultimate reality. In a > week or so, somehow, both of us will get to North Steyne, and we will see > each other, and talk to each other. > ------------ > > Reality in the future will be exactly the way it is now: just a few, drab > dhammas that have been conditioned to arise and fall away. > > I wouldn't say that because we refer to anything that is covered by "the all" as dhammas, that therefore the experience of, say, a certain colour is exactly the same as the experience of a certain sound. The dream / conventional reality is quite rich and varied. > H: > We may experience that in different ways, but I know that for me to > see you and talk to you, that is what I will have to live. It may well > happen that during our conversation I slip into the fifth jhana, or > thereabouts, but that will not be noticeable for you. Or vice versa. > ------------------ > > It's happened to me before: people have fallen asleep while I was talking > and claimed they were meditating! > > The hide of them :-) > ------------------------- > KH: > > Dhammas are the only things we need to have a view about. > <. . .> > > > H: > Again, I'm not sure about something. In this case I am not sure that > we need to have views about anything. When I am seeing you and talking to > you, I certainly won't be singing in my head "Life is but a dream" in order > to maintain a view I think I should have. And if I slip into a jhana, or > you, so be it. > --------------------------- > > From 3.30 to 5.00 the only topic will be dhammas, and everyone will be > required to have a view - or else! > > Be there, or be square :-) Herman #110313 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:19 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi Ken > Ph: > I don't think so, that is an insult to the Buddha's compassion. He didn't shut the door on people whose understanding was not developed enough to grasp the deep teachings, but it seems to me that that is what you would have him do when you insist on stripping every single one of his teaching down to the barest paramattha terms. He didn't do that, why do you dare to? > -------------- > > The way I see it, we are all (the wise and the not-so-wise alike) listening to the Dhamma, considering it, and discussing it. > > Desire for right understanding doesn't play a role in any of that. In fact, we would be showing our appreciation of the Dhamma if we simply understood there was wrong understanding, rather than if we desired to replace it with right understanding. Ph: Well, it is beyond me how a modern person can come across deep teachings and not desire to stretch his or her thin understanding to wrap around the deep teachings, thereby tearing whatever understanding was there to begin with. I believe pariyatti re the deep teachings should remain very much in the book, because I think we are all hungry to get something out of Dhamma and that will involve stretching our understanding farther than it is ready to go. Saying "everything is dhammas" feels like that to me, it has nothing to do with my real understanding. I think it is better for me to start with people, start to see that there is distorted perception that leads me to believe in people, have that distorted perception ever so gradually weakened and removed, rather than leaping to the great and profound conclusion, that I haven't actually earned. Perhaps you are not leaping to that great conclusion, perhaps you are patiently going moment by moment as well, so maybe I'm misreading you. Anyways, nice that I was able to actually carry a discussion for two or three posts, that's an improvement for me. Adios for now. Metta, Phil #110314 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:26 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi PT, thanks > So, the question is then - okay so how do i get to the point when I'm actually the "beginner" who can tell the difference between a/kusala? I guess I'm still unclear on how the beginner could know the difference between kusala and akusala at the subtle degree you are getting at in your post. THat would seem to me to be the result of following the prescribed practice rather than a precondition for it...perhaps you got at that in your post, it was a bit hard for me to follow in my "haven't eaten breakfast yet rushing at the computer" state of mind. But thanks. Metta, Phil #110315 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Rob and Mel's pic epsteinrob Hi Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Great to see your "overly happy on vacation" pic with your wife Mel:-) > > It was actually you who started the DSG photo album over 10 years ago and I think you were even responsible for rounding up the pics of newcomers. Thank you for reminding me of that! Yes, I guess when I first discovered you fine folks at dsg I got photo-happy and wanted to see everyone. And when I decided to revisit the photo files yesterday I was very impressed by all the great pictures of people old and new. I thought to myself, 'what an amazingly nice group of people from all over the world!' And everyone seemed to be having fun and looked so nice - and all their friends were nice. It really is a neat experience for anyone who wants to go through it from beginning to end. I enjoyed all the pics of you and Jon in different places, and of Nina and Lodewick and others. I especially liked seeing you all plant trees in Sarnath. I was there on my eclectic journey through Nepal and India in 1987 or so, when I went on my "I have no idea what I'm doing" tour and went wherever I wanted to for no good reason. :-) Except for Sarnath, which of course has a very good inherent reason. :-) Sometime I will post a picture of me holding a baby goat in Nepal. I enjoyed seeing pics of my pals Howard, James and Alex - all fine-looking guys; and Ken H., with whom I have a "special" relationship of 'dhammas only.' ;-) I was inspired to update my own photo and introduce my wife after seeing so many cool people, and I look forward to seeing the new people as well as recent photos of you and Jon! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110316 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:20 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > And most importantly, and undeniably, the Buddha didn't teach > in "there are only dhammas" terms to listenerers of a shallow understanding. There is a good reason he told stories about people in narrative situations, he knew that was how he could help foster conditions for the deeper understanding. > > Thanks Ken. I'll keep waiting for some textual evidence that the instructions in the Vism are not instructions, I just don't get it, it seems very odd! See, that is a function of my shallow understanding, being told by Ken H again and again that there are only dhammas won't do anything about that! The understanding is not there, and I won't pretend it is. I think you have made a most excellent point - that the Buddha did not present the Abhidhamma to those who were appropriately instructed in conventional terms, and that he also told people to "do this" and "do that" because that is the correct way for them to get started on the path. If this is kept in mind, it may eliminate a lot of conflict - there's no reason to convince oneself or others that the instructions the Buddha and Vism gave are *not* really meant as instructions. Rather, one can shift to understanding what is right for each group: For some, it is appropriate to understand the instructions as instructions; and for those who have begin to think in terms of "dhammas only," it is appropriate for them to translate the instructions into "descriptions of conditions that allow for certain dhammas to arise for certain types of cittas." Each group is rightly involved in a process approved by the Buddha, but to impose one path on the other group would be to go against his teachings. When someone like me is ready to find out more about specific "conditions" in the non-conventional sense, that lead to certain dhammas arising, then I can start looking into it in the appropriate books and ask people about it, as I have been doing. No need to impose anything on anyone. If one has the predilection to meditate, or to study commentary, we should respect each other's paths, whether conventional or otherwise. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110317 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:25 pm Subject: Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner epsteinrob Hi Ken H and Herman. Herman! Where have you appeared from, and where have you been...? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > ...I understand that there are impersonal, impermanent dhammas that lend themselves as fodder for suffering, which is yet more dhammas, but I will also understand that I am talking to Howard AKA KenH. For if I didn't understand that, our conversation could not proceed. Can someone explain to me why Herman call you "Howard," and why you accepted that? Do you indeed have an alternate name that I'm not aware of...? [More mysterious all the time.] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110318 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cittas - sub-moments epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 28-sep-2010, om 17:39 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > > > Thank you, Nina. I think I will wait to catch up a bit before > > adding any more books, but that is very kind. > ------ > N: Just let me know when you are ready for it, > Nina. I just took a look at your Conditions book today, and look forward to reading more of it - would be good for me to start understanding the different types of conditions that lead to various experiences arising. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110319 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:49 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi pt, and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Phil, Alex, KenH, RobE, Jon, > As I said before, I think it's questionable whether one can get to understand the difference between a/kusala by practicing in a formal meditation style, since majority of the practice tends to be akusala pt, you seem to be, from the distance of words and internet, to be an extremely nice person - unlike me and Ken H., for instance - and I also think you always try to be helpful; so I am going to assume good will on your part which I think is really there. I do disagree with what I think are underlying presuppositions in your view of this issue, but that is fair enough - we can't all necessarily agree. Here's my objection to what you say above: I do not assume that "majority of practice tends to be akusala." I think that's a strange myth perpetuated mainly on dsg, and nowhere else that I can think of. There are many things I've come to admire in the philosophy here, the detailed analysis and the understanding that constantly shifting cittas and dhammas make up our reality and that they are not-self; and the understanding that we live most of our lives with concepts, and that this is different than discerning realities. These are great Buddhist tools, but I don't agree with the conclusions drawn from there, which are fraught with presuppositions not directly derived from those tools. They are added on from another place, and a particular interpretation of those truths. I think it is a terrible conclusion to draw that anything that appears to be in the conventional human realm - that is to say, intention, effort, volition and purposeful activity - is akusala and promotes self-view. I don't think this is true. Buddha constantly talks about these things as part of what *is* kusala, and to take these away is to take away the part of the path that makes it work or not work. Buddha spoke of Right Effort, Right Intention and Right Action. He didn't say "avoid effort, intention and action." When he says to engage in Right effort, intention and action, he is making it clear that there is kusala effort, intention and action, and akusala effort, intention and action. On the very face of this, and by any logic whatever, this clearly shows that Buddha did *not* believe that all volitional behavior was akusala or off the path, promoting wrong view, but that there were both wholesome and unwholesome versions of volitional behavior, and we were to choose the kusala version. Since he gave these distinctions in the conventional teachings, and they are repeated in the Vism, one must assume that they are meant to be followed by persons both conventionally and those who are advanced, that doing so can very well be kusala, or Buddha would not have promoted it. I hope this makes clear what is the inevitable position of one who reads the Buddha's work and analysis without an additional, separate, added philosophy stuck on top of his teachings. We can use the Abhidhamma, the commentaries, and K. Sujin's teachings to illuminate the micro-analysis of how these teachings take place and apply to realities, and that is what I think we should do; rather than use those additional teachings to contradict the face of the Dhamma and distort it into something else, where we cannot act, cannot practice, and cannot learn, except by a very strict adherence to a separate view that is not in the teachings - any of them: not in sutta, not in Vism, and not in Abhidhamma. K. Sujin's teachings are not left out in this. I have read parts of her Survey with great appreciation for the analysis. There is nowhere in there, or anything I have heard her say in a quote, that says "Do not meditate, do not intend, do not act." Maybe this is part of her teaching, but it is not necessary, and it is not part of her main analysis, which is very incisive and helpful to anyone who wants to understand dhammas. So I stand in a place where I can accept the Buddha's words without distorting them, and still look through the microscope of the analysis of dhammas presented here. I can stand there with anyone here, but I can't agree with the wrong and unnecessary view that the Buddha's teachings mean the opposite of what they say. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110320 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:00 pm Subject: Re: What I heard.from audio (DSG org), 2007-07-05,a. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Kh Sujin: If there is no studying how can one know that there is no > self but a conditioned reality which arises to see, to think, to > experience an object? Who can know that without studying? Pa~n~naa > can develop in order to see reality as it is. When there is clinging, > there is no doubt about it, because it has arisen and falls away, all > the time. Whatever appears now can be directly experienced. If this > were not true it would be useless to talk about all these things. Studying reality itself as it arises in meditation can indeed be as much an understanding of reality right now as reading and studying. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110321 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:07 pm Subject: Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > It's happened to me before: people have fallen asleep while I was talking and claimed they were meditating! This happens to me quite frequently too, and also only when I am talking... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110322 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:12 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi Rob Yes, I think that folks like Ken H do a disservice to the Buddha by failing to recognize - and celebrate - that he taught in different ways to different people based on his insight in the degree of their understanding, the strengths of their defilements etc. But then again, in the gradual teaching, for example when he met the leper on the road, he didn't start by saying "meditate, monks! or you will regret it, there are the roots of trees" etc. He started with a gradual teaching on morality. In a quick Google search to find out the content of his teaching to beginners, I happened across this, I have no idea of the source, but I think it makes for an interesting summary: "The gradual training begins with the practice of generosity, which helps begin the long process of weakening the unawakened practitioner's habitual tendencies to cling ? to views, to sensuality, and to unskillful modes of thought and behavior. This is followed by the development of virtue, the basic level of sense-restraint that helps the practitioner develop a healthy and trustworthy sense of self. The peace of mind born from this level of self-respect provides the foundation for all further progress along the path. The practitioner now understands that some kinds of happiness are deeper and more dependable than anything that sense-gratification can ever provide; the happiness born of generosity and virtue can even lead to rebirth in heaven ? either literal or metaphorical. But eventually the practitioner begins to recognize the intrinsic drawbacks of even this kind of happiness: as good as rebirth in wholesome states may be, the happiness it brings is not a true and lasting one, for it relies on conditions over which he or she ultimately has no control. This marks a crucial turning point in the training, when the practitioner begins to grasp that true happiness will never be found in the realm of the physical and sensual world. The only possible route to an unconditioned happiness lies in renunciation, in turning away from the sensual realm, by trading the familiar, lower forms of happiness for something far more rewarding and noble. Now, at last, the practitioner is ripe to receive the teachings on the Four Noble Truths, which spell out the course of mental training required to realize the highest happiness: nibbana. Many Westerners first encounter the Buddha's teachings on meditation retreats, which typically begin with instructions in how to develop the skillful qualities of right mindfulness and right concentration. It is worth noting that, as important as these qualities are, the Buddha placed them towards the very end of his gradual course of training. The meaning is clear: to reap the most benefit from meditation practice, to bring to full maturity all the qualities needed for Awakening, the fundamental groundwork must not be overlooked. There is no short-cutting this process." I think Westerners are indeed hungry to get to the fruit of meditaiton and plunge in with akusala involved. Fortunately, I think that even if that is the case, it helps condition the morality and generosity written about above. Any kind of development of understanding how the mind constantly churns up and consumes fabrications that are harmful and lead to unhappiness has got to be good, I don't care what anyone says. To think that people who are prone to endless painful mental processes learn to see where they come from a bit and learn to drop them a bit earlier is great. For example, the prison meditation programs. I don't give a **** how much self view was involved for the prisoners who learned to deal with anger through those programs. Not true Dhamma? Maybe. But conditions are improved for further investigation, and getting deeper into Dhamma. So I think yes, DSGers are right in saying that modern approaches to medtitation are likely to be rooted in akusala, but I think they fail to appreciate the good those approaches do in leading peopel away from very harsh and immediate and preventable forms of suffering, I think that there is not enough appreciation that the Buddha wanted people to stop suffering! Yes, liberation, but there are forms of stopping-suffering that he was offering that fall far short of liberation, yes, but are to be celebrated with gratitude!!!! An off topic ramble, probably. Metta, Phil #110323 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:57 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Phil, Alex, KenH, RobE, Jon, > In my experience, counting, connexion, etc, can certainly be done in an akusala way, usually under the guise of some hindrance (like wanting more connexion now, etc) and it's very hard to tell that it was an akusala endevour that just happened because it can be accompanied by strong concentration and effort, which would then result in some sort of piti which is very pleasant, what would then result in some relaxation, etc. Basically, one of the reasons I concluded that this was akusala was because sometimes there would be a sort of a spontaneous let-go of trying to make the connexion happen for example, and that let-go by itself would be much more calm and without the restlessness (as far as i can tell), so a much better candidate for kusala I guess. > > On the other hand, I think that I did experience connexion arising a few times in a kusala way, but then as soon as it would disappear, I'd try to replicate that experience by "letting-go" on purpose, and being calm on purpose, and well, that wouldn't be kusala anymore, though of course I quite oblivious of that fact at the time. I guess the explanation is that Akusala/hindrances are hard to spot at the time of arising, since they arise with ignorance as the main root... I think you give a good descriptin of how self-view and self-based effort tend to gum up the works in anything we do. However, that doesn't make the activity akusala. It means you are experiencing kusala and akusala arising and perhaps starting to differentiate them. Your description shows some clarity about which is which. Everyone who meditates, or learns an instrument, or learns to drive, goes through similar experiences of effort, frustration, pushing for results, etc., and it is only when we get used to the process and let it happen that things smooth out. This is just the human condition, and it applies to anything we do. We can observe and learn how to let go and sometimes it will happen, as you reported. You assume the accidental "letting go" which felt good was in contradiction to your meditation activity. But it may have been that your meditation efforts, however difficult, may have provided the conditions for those "accidental" moments of letting go. That is the problem with taking a presupposition from a philosophy and applying it out of hand, without evidence. It will distort your view of the natural process that you are observing, and perhaps obscure the very naturalness of bhavana that you think is missing. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110324 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:09 pm Subject: Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---- RE: > Do you indeed have an alternate name that I'm not aware of...? [More mysterious all the time.] ---- Yes, but don't worry, I am not the same Howard that I have DSG discussions with. :-) My first given name is Kenneth and my second given name is Howard. My parents, in their wisdom, always called me Howard, and for most of my life that was the only name I was known by. These days, however, there are more people who call me Ken than call me Howard. Ken H #110325 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob > > Yes, I think that folks like Ken H do a disservice to the Buddha by failing to recognize - and celebrate - that he taught in different ways to different people based on his insight in the degree of their understanding, the strengths of their defilements etc. > > But then again, in the gradual teaching, for example when he met the leper on the road, he didn't start by saying "meditate, monks! or you will regret it, there are the roots of trees" etc. He started with a gradual teaching on morality. Enjoyed the summary that you found. I think it's good. However, I think that not only does the path work in order, but it works differently for people of different predilections. The idea that meditation will be akusala for one who is not advanced enough to have some sila and sati already in the bag may be true, but may also sometimes not be true. I have known some people, probably because of their kamma, who did a yoga pose or sat in meditation and lit up like a light bulb - that was it for them, they connected and started to find some peace of mind and it was natural for them to do so. For others, it is a struggle or unnatural and not as good a fit. So it varies and one should discern one's own stage of development and what is best at the time to grow the path. That was very much Buddha's point, and he pointed out that some develop sila first, some samatha, some vipassana, then jhana, etc. and that will make sense for the person involved, because of kamma and accumulations. So I think the best way to approach dhamma study, meditation and meritorious thought and action is to have an open mind and not make any assumptions - study well, practice well and try to do good! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110326 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:30 pm Subject: Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Hi Robert E, > > ---- > RE: > Do you indeed have an alternate name that I'm not aware of...? [More mysterious all the time.] > ---- > > Yes, but don't worry, I am not the same Howard that I have DSG discussions with. :-) Ha ha, yes, you would have to be fairly schizophrenic to have both your views and his at the same time! :-) > My first given name is Kenneth and my second given name is Howard. My parents, in their wisdom, always called me Howard, and for most of my life that was the only name I was known by. These days, however, there are more people who call me Ken than call me Howard. Thanks for the explanation. It is both fascinating and a little frightening that you and Herman sort of know each other. I hope you will both report on the exciting results of your meeting! And post pics! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #110327 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:09 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for your reply. > Alex: However, IMHO, if one doesn't put in any effort, one will not gain any kusala. pt: I believe that is really the root of the disagreement - effort as such can be only kusala or akusala, no in-between - kusala effort accompanies a kusala citta, and akusala effort accompanies an akusala citta. So, if I'm putting in effort right now to gain kusala later, then my effort right now is not kusala, so it can only be akusala. Therefore, I'm really developing akusala right now, and therefore, later on I will not gain more kusala, but more akusala. Anyway, I'm not saying it is impossible for people today to know the difference between a/kusala effort, counting, etc. But, that understanding has to be there for kusala development (whether samatha, sila or vipassana) to be possible. Otherwise, there's no knowing what one is developing really. And imo the only way for that initial understanding of the difference between a/ksuala to develop is through hearing Dhamma and considering it. Sure, one can always attempt some sort of practice, but if that initial understanding of the difference between a/kusala is insufficient, then imo there will likely be development of akusala, much more than any kusala. At least that's the conclusion I'm getting to while evaluating the results of my own practice. Best wishes pt #110328 From: Herman Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: there are only dhammas... was The clansman who is a beginner egberdina Hi Rob E, On 30 September 2010 11:25, epsteinrob wrote: > > > Hi Ken H and Herman. > > Herman! Where have you appeared from, and where have you been...? > > I have been discovering the truth of the Zen saying, wherever you go, there you are. Cheers Herman #110329 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:24 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Phil, > Phil: I guess I'm still unclear on how the beginner could know the difference between kusala and akusala at the subtle degree you are getting at in your post. pt: As I understand, the only way to get to know the difference between kusala and akusala is by hearing the Dhamma and considering it. This then gradually results in an understanding which is able to tell the difference between a/kusala when they arise. Sure, not all the time, but slowly it develops. So, I don't think it's something that can be forced by trying to use a method or something. I mean, that trying itself has to be known as kusala or aksuala in the first place. > Phil: THat would seem to me to be the result of following the prescribed practice rather than a precondition for it... pt: I think that the understanding developed to the degree that can tell between a/kusala is essentially the precondition for the samatha practice of the kind that's described in the Vsm passages that Alex quoted (counting, connexion, fixing, etc). If there's no such understanding, then there's no knowing in real time whether one is attempting connexion in an akusala manner, and therefore only developing more akusala. As mentioned, this knowing that connexion right now is kusala is basically an outcome of considering Dhamma that one has heard, the understanding of which then finds application in the present moment. Best wishes pt #110330 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] We are alone. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, Many thanks for transcribing and translating K.Sujin's excellent comments as here: --- On Sun, 26/9/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >From a Thai recording in Jetavanna. >We are all alone. We think of many people, of those we love, but that is just our thinking. Those people do not stay; everything arises and falls away, never to return. We do not exist, there are mere dhammas arising and falling away. Everything goes, goes, goes, no matter it is experienced through the eyes, the ears or through any other doorway. We find the stories relating to the people we love so important, but next life these stories are all forgotten. .... S: So true and so inspiring, I find.... ... >We are alone, there are no people. Pa~n~naa has to be developed in order to know the truth. We are born alone: only one citta arises, the rebirth-consciousness, the first citta of life. It falls away and is succeeded by the life-continuum, the bhavanga-citta. All bhavanga- cittas keep the continuity in the life of a person from birth to death. Only one citta arises at a time. When we are seeing we are alone, only one citta at a time arises and falls away to be succeeded by a following citta. When we are hearing, we are alone. When we are thinking, we are alone: only one citta at a time arises and falls away to be succeeded by a following citta. We are thinking about many things we remember, but each citta that thinks falls away immediately. ... S: Alone from birth to death throughout samsara, alone with this very citta now. "We are alone, there are no people" and this is just what the Buddha taught us.....just cittas experiencing objects through six doorways. We can never be reminded enough! Metta Sarah ======== #110331 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. sarahprocter... Hi Pt, Rob Ep & all, --- On Sun, 26/9/10, ptaus1 wrote: >I wrote a response yesterday, but it looks like it got lost, so I'll try to recount here. ... [S: just a reminder to everyone, inc. myself: save your posts until you seem them appear on DSG....I've also been caught out recently. Ken H once gave us a good reminder to just save in the memory, until it shows up.] .... >I think right intellectual understnading has basically to do with the beginnings of detachment. I.e. when something is presently recognised as having the anatta characteristic, being conditioned, not me, etc, that would be the beginning of detachment. Sure, it's not a dhamma that's the object of citta with panna yet, it's still just concepts and thinking, but it's quite different from taking that thinking, anger, doubt, effort, etc, as me and my self. ... S: Nicely put. Yes, without the beginning of understanding dhammas as anatta, even intellectually, detachment from them will never grow. It'll always be 'my seeing', 'my visible object'. There won't be any appreciation of what it means to 'live alone', live alone with the dhamma appearing now. .... >So, as you suggested, right intellectual understnading would take even that thinking itself as anatta - i.e. if there's some detachemnt from it, then there's right understnading. But of course, the same would apply just as well to anything else that's arising presently - anger, doubt, effort, panna, etc. I guess that deepening intellectual understnading in this way eventually leads to real detachment - i.e. to an actual dhamma becoming an object of cittas and panna seeing the anatta characteristics of it directly. .... S: Again, well put. ... >Anyway, that's how I understand the topic at the moment. Maybe Jon will add more. There's also a lot on this topic in the useful posts file: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm In particular see these topics in the useful posts file: - "Considering, Listening, Intellectual Understanding, Pariyatti" - "Listening" - "Pariyatti" .... S: For Rob Ep and his question on finding the commentaries, again, go to "Useful Posts" and look under almost any topic. For example, try: - Brahmajala - Mulapariyaya - Sisters - Susima - Meditation in the texts - Vipassana - Jhana and Nibbana - Visuddhimagga Really, whatever interests you. Also, thanks to the most incredible hard work of Connie, the entire archives are backed up on www.dhammastudygroup.org. You can download them all onto your hard-drive and then easily scroll through them off-list, such as at airports and on aeroplanes as Rob M used to do. As you mentioned, the Patthana is only partly translated into English and very difficult to read. There is, however, a very helpful "Guide to Conditional Relations" by U Narada, the translator of the Patthana, available from PTS. Great to see your keen interest. Metta Sarah p.s All - the next Dhamma discussion gathering at our place in Sydney is on Sat 9th October in the afternoon (3 - 5.30 p.m). If anyone is free to join, it'll be very lively (thanks to Ken H and Herman with Pt as mediator:-), so pls let me know. ============ #110332 From: Herman Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] We are alone. egberdina Hey Sarah, On 30 September 2010 16:24, sarah abbott wrote: > > <..> > S: Alone from birth to death throughout samsara, alone with this very citta > now. "We are alone, there are no people" and this is just what the Buddha > taught us.....just cittas experiencing objects through six doorways. > > We can never be reminded enough! > > I do hope that despite all you say above that you will answer the door when I knock on it next week. And if you do, I'll take that as your acknowledgement of others, and that they are able to condition that lonely citta of yours :-) I'm also assuming that in sending this post, that you were expecting others to read it, and perhaps comment on it? Cheers Herman #110333 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah sarahprocter... Hi Ari, Glad you're "hanging in" with us... ... --- On Mon, 27/9/10, a_true_lotus wrote: >Who am I? .... S: An illusion.....just mental and physical phenomena... .... > S: I agree that it seems like that, it really seems like they are "my" thoughts, my habits, my thinking. In fact, now, there is just thinking. >A:Uh, but doesn't thinking come from us? If we are killed, we stop thinking? ... S: Just moments of thinking on and on and on. We think of 'life' as being the particular life-span of so many years, but actually, there's the birth and death of life, of thinking, at each moment. Just as this moment of thinking conditions the next moment of thinking, so does the last moment of thinking in "Ari's life" condition the next moment of thinking in the next life. Soon everything about this life, our family members, animals, all we hold dear will be forgotten and there will be more thinking about, more desires for more sense objects. This is the Truth of Dukkha and its cause, desire. .... >S:If awareness is aware of thinking, that's all it is - no "me" in it. >A:I kind of see that. ... S: Good, whenever there's awareness, no "Sarah", no "Ari" at all. Just thinking with joy, thinking with sadness, thinking with delight....whatever is conditioned at that moment! In the Satipatthana Sutta, under "Awareness of citta" (or thinking), the first example given is being aware of thinking with desire. Awareness can be aware of whatever is real in our lives at this moment. .... >OK, it still seems like I am thinking. Even if I am meditating, it seems like I am meditating. ... S: Yes, seems like that to "thinking". This is why thinking (or citta) is said to be like a conjurer's trick - it deceives all the time because of ignorance. .... > > So, I was resting on my bed, and I asked "who am I?" and the answer was "I'm a depressed woman laying in bed". That seemed to be the answer. > .... > S: At such moments of thinking like this, isn't the reality again just various kinds of thinking - in this case thinking about oneself in such and such a state? Can there be awareness now for a moment of thinking as just thinking, no "Ari" in it? >A:*That is kind of blowing my mind. Thinking as just thinking? But thinking comes from my brain, and so it is of "me", isn't it? ... S: Even our ideas of "brain" are just objects of thinking. They are not real. The reality is the thinking at such times, regardless of what ideas, what dreams it thinks about. ... >A: *I can do an exercise where I eliminate myself from the picture, but really, when I go back to normal thinking, I'm still going to think that I am thinking, you know what I mean? ... S: Yes, so doing such exercises are not the way. We do them because we'd like to "eliminate myself from the picture". This is not the same as understanding the thinking, the seeing, the visible object or any other reality now for what it is - just a dhamma, not "me". ... >S:We usually find our various thinking about various ideas rather important, but actually, aren't these moments just fleeting, insignificant phenomena, "namas", passing on? >A:*That, I understand! Thoughts go through my meditation, slowly, but are there. Then I'll think about my dental appointment, or I'll think about something else, and I would guess that as one gathers experience in life, that thinking would chage, but you don't notice it unless you keep a journal or something. I can go back and read journals from my early 20's and while I find some personality traits - like similar like problems with anxiety, I do think much differently now that I am 48. .... S: And not only is the thinking different now from when we were younger, it is different at each moment. Who can say what we'll think about next? Impossible to know. Who can say what seeing will see, what hearing will hear? Different kinds of thinking and experience arise and fall away very rapidly. They arise because of various conditions and are not in anyone's control even for an instant. This is why we sometimes feel sad or dejected, as you've mentioned. We'd like our thinking, our experiences to be a certain way because of our various desires for different sense objects, but no Self can determine what will arise. Even the most pleasurable experiences don't last for an instant. Again, this is the truth of Dukkha and the cause of Dukkha. ... >But the thoughts do seem like they are coming from me, and if I write a journal, that is coming from me. But, I guess I'd have to admit that "me" or "I" changes. ... S: Yes, it seems like that and, as you say, the "Me' changes. Is the seeing now "Me"? Is the good thought about Dhamma now "Me"? Is the annoyance "Me"? Really, it's just a label we stick on a multitude of different experiences. In truth, no "Me" can ever be found, only imagined. ... >A:Thank you. I was really hated for mentioning my life experiences and am hesitant to do it again. I think it arose from the fact that we are not having hard economic times, and others are. So, then when I talk about going to Maui, or my horse that cost $1500/ month for board and riding lessons, other people get upset. .... S: So, we learn to be considerate and understanding of others feelings. However, in the end, only we can know our thinking and motives for mentioning this or that. People get upset because of their own accumulated tendencies, but just as we don't like to get upset, we can see the value of developing metta and kindness to others, don't you think? .... > Let me know how the comments above sound. A:> Well, how can it be that thinking is just thinking. I'm sitting in a chair. The chair isn't thinking. I am near my dogs, they think, but not in the same way as humans. Thinking comes from the brain, no? I find that part a little confusing. ... S: Whether it is known as "Ari's thinking" or the "dog's thinking", it is just the reality, thinking which can be known. Yes, there's no "chair's thinking!". When there's awareness, there's no idea of "Ari" or "the dog". These are the objects of thinking. This is such an important point - so please keep pursuing your good qus on it. (Sometimes I'm very slow to respond....so be patient...) ... >I remember reading about Sri Aurobindo and this notion that thoughts are just floating around, and you are an antenna, attract thoughts by your current spiritual level. Is it like that? That thoughts are just floating around? ... S: I think we need to distinguish between the reality, thinking, and the thoughts which thinking thinks about. These are just concepts or ideas and don't "float" anywhere. Metta Sarah > p.s Pls remember to address "Sarah", "Phil", "All" or whoever it is at the top of your posts, so we can all quickly see at a glance who they're addressed to. Thanks in advance. >A: Sure. ... S: .....and also sign off with "Ari":-)) ===== #110334 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] We are alone. sarahprocter... Hey Herman!! --- On Thu, 30/9/10, Herman wrote: > > I do hope that despite all you say above that you will > answer the door when > I knock on it next week. ... S: It'll just be various lonely namas and rupas answering the door, if conditioned to do so:-) ... >And if you do, I'll take that as > your > acknowledgement of others, and that they are able to > condition that lonely > citta of yours :-) .... S: Just more lonely cittas conditioning other lonely cittas - a party of lonely cittas in fact:-) .... >I'm also assuming that in sending this > post, that you > were expecting others to read it, and perhaps comment on > it? .... S: Different cittas, different kinds of thinking, different ideas and expectations. And yes, comments always most welcome - even lonely "Herman" cittas' comments:-) Knock, knock....and let's see who's there if anyone! Metta Sarah ======== #110335 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:58 am Subject: Re: Old age, to Han. sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, Good to read your helpful quotes and reminders such as the following one: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Swee Boon" wrote: > http://www.viet.net/~anson/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-10.htm > > We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (II, Nidana-vagga, Ch. XV, par. 10, A person) that the Buddha, when he was in Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak, said to the monks: > > Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... The bones of one single person, monks, running on, faring on for an aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap as great as Mount Vepulla, were there a collector of those bones and the collection were not destroyed. > > How is this? Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... .... S: Faring on and on in ignorance.... Even appreciating this is a little glimmer of light through the cloak of darkness.... Good to see you around again. Metta Sarah ======= #110336 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:08 am Subject: Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 sarahprocter... Hi Pt (& Rob Ep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: Afaik, that's what the whole navattabba business is about. I.e. the citta in one mind-door process falls away, and in the very next mind-door process, that fallen citta now becomes the object of current cittas in the current mind-door process, and that happens by way of navattabba. Navattabba is something like the spitting image of what has just fallen away - basically it's the experience of the three characteristics (anatta, anicca and dukkha), so it's not a concept yet - which is more like a memory of what has fallen away some time ago. At least, that's how I understand it. But anyway, because one mind-door process follows another so incredibly fast, this experience of what has just fallen away by way of navattabba is still considered a "direct" experience in the present moment. Anyway, that's how much I understand about this. Sarah, Nina and others might be able to clarify more. .... S:That's very well said. Just the line about "basically it's the experience of the three characteristics (anatta, anicca and dukkha)" doesn't quite make sense to me. As you imply, right understanding and awareness are aware of the presently appearing dhamma, even if, literally speaking, that dhamma has just fallen away. It's "spitting image" appears just as it is. As you know, each conditioned dhamma has its particular characteristic and the general characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, but it'll depend on the degree (and kind)of understanding at that moment as to how deeply the dhamma is known. Metta Sarah ======= #110337 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:54 am Subject: Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 ptaus1 Hi Sarah, > S: That's very well said. Just the line about "basically it's the experience of the three characteristics (anatta, anicca and dukkha)" doesn't quite make sense to me. pt: Thanks, what I meant is that the experience of characteristics is in essence the equivalent of experiencing a dhamma, though I did forget to mention the individual characteristic. Best wishes pt #110338 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:58 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi RobE, > RobE: Here's my objection to what you say above: I do not assume that > "majority of practice tends to be akusala." I think that's a strange myth perpetuated mainly on dsg, and nowhere else that I can think of. pt: Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was just talking in terms of my own practice. I mean, I do sort of maintain a daily samatha practice, but so far I think if there was any progress in samatha, it was thanks to understanding gained from hearing and discussing, not from my meditation practice as such. Further, as far as I can tell, something like 95% of it is spent in hindrances. Often, I get excited that some new experience is kusala, but later on that also turns out to be akusala of a finer grade. There are some moments that I think are really kusala, but they happen spontaneously - kind of in spite of the practice. > RobE: I think it is a terrible conclusion to draw that anything that appears to be in the conventional human realm - that is to say, intention, effort, volition and purposeful activity - is akusala and promotes self-view. pt: Hm, I wasn't trying to say that at all. Just that most of the things we take conventionally can in paramattha terms be both kusala and akusala - e.g. effort, small talk, sila, etc. Hence, our task is really to know the difference between these two through understanding, not simply just engage in this or that activity assuming that the activity automatically makes it kusala. > RobE: Buddha spoke of Right Effort, Right Intention and Right Action. He didn't say "avoid effort, intention and action." When he says to engage in Right effort, intention and action, he is making it clear that there is kusala effort, intention and action, and akusala effort, intention and action. pt: Well, I don't think anyone is denying that. What I'm saying though (from experience) is that it's far too easy to assume that effort is kusala while in fact it is not. So, I question my own ability to tell the difference between kusala and akusala effort. > RobE: Since he gave these distinctions in the conventional teachings, and they are repeated in the Vism, one must assume that they are meant to be followed by persons both conventionally and those who are advanced, that doing so can very well be kusala, or Buddha would not have promoted it. pt: Hm, I don't think that conventional vs ultimate argument really translates directly into beginner vs advanced student argument. I mean, afaik, one and the same thing can be expressed both in ultimate and conventional terms. Practically though, effort, concentration, etc, can be either kusala or aksuala, or if you like, there's right and wrong effort, concentration, etc, so the issue for me is differentiating between the two practically in real time. > RobE: So I stand in a place where I can accept the Buddha's words without distorting them, and still look through the microscope of the analysis of dhammas presented here. I can stand there with anyone here, but I can't agree with the wrong and unnecessary view that the Buddha's teachings mean the opposite of what they say. pt: I'm not sure what you mean there - you mean that I'm saying "don't meditate" and that sort of supposed argument? I think that whole argument misses the point - for me it's more about practicality - it all goes down to discerning in real time whether there's kusala currently or not. That's really it as far as I can see. If one can't discern that right now, then there's no guarantee one's in fact following what the Buddha was encouraging right now. Best wishes pt #110339 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:19 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi RobE, > RobE: I think you give a good description of how self-view and self-based effort tend to gum up the works in anything we do. However, that doesn't make the activity akusala. pt: I think here I was writing in the sort of terminology that we settled on here in discussions - so "activity" like meditating, or running, etc, is basically a conventional description (basically a concept), while a/kusala cittas and other dhammas are the real thing we're concerned with in discussions so to speak. > RobE: You assume the accidental "letting go" which felt good was in contradiction to your meditation activity. But it may have been that your meditation efforts, however difficult, may have provided the conditions for those "accidental" moments of letting go. pt: Hm, yes that's a possibility, though to be honest, the two feel like complete opposites, so it's hard to gauge how kusala could be the outcome of intentional efforts. Time will tell I guess. Best wishes pt #110340 From: Herman Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] We are alone. egberdina Hi Sarah, On 30 September 2010 17:53, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hey Herman!! > > > --- On Thu, 30/9/10, Herman > > wrote: > > > I do hope that despite all you say above that you will > > answer the door when > > I knock on it next week. > ... > S: It'll just be various lonely namas and rupas answering the door, if > conditioned to do so:-) > ... > > >And if you do, I'll take that as > > your > > acknowledgement of others, and that they are able to > > condition that lonely > > citta of yours :-) > .... > S: Just more lonely cittas conditioning other lonely cittas - a party of > lonely cittas in fact:-) > .... > > >I'm also assuming that in sending this > > post, that you > > were expecting others to read it, and perhaps comment on > > it? > .... > S: Different cittas, different kinds of thinking, different ideas and > expectations. > > And yes, comments always most welcome - even lonely "Herman" cittas' > comments:-) > > Knock, knock....and let's see who's there if anyone! > > I can accept all you say in the above without any dramas. But surely we can be consistent in that understanding, and thus also just say that there is no Buddha, and as a consequence also no Buddha Dhamma. I say this in reference to what I initially replied to, especially the bits between the **: >S: Alone from birth to death throughout samsara, alone with this very citta now. "We are >alone, there are no people" **and this is just what the Buddha taught us**.....just cittas >experiencing objects through six doorways. Happily, we can also take another, quite legitimate approach. SN 45.2 PTS: S v 2 CDB ii 1524 Upaddha Sutta: I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie." "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path. I don't for a minute suggest I am aspiring to a holy life, Sarah, but you have been one heck of a good friend :-) Cheers Herman #110341 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:57 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for your reply. > > > > Alex: However, IMHO, if one doesn't put in any effort, one will not gain any kusala. > > > pt: I believe that is really the root of the disagreement - effort as such can be only kusala or akusala, no in-between - kusala effort accompanies a kusala citta, and akusala effort accompanies an akusala citta. So, if I'm putting in effort right now to gain kusala later, then my effort right now is not kusala, so it can only be akusala. Therefore, I'm really developing akusala right now, and therefore, later on I will not gain more kusala, but more akusala. > > Anyway, I'm not saying it is impossible for people today to know the difference between a/kusala effort, counting, etc. But, that understanding has to be there for kusala development (whether samatha, sila or vipassana) to be possible. Otherwise, there's no knowing what one is developing really. And imo the only way for that initial understanding of the difference between a/ksuala to develop is through hearing Dhamma and considering it. Sure, one can always attempt some sort of practice, but if that initial understanding of the difference between a/kusala is insufficient, then imo there will likely be development of akusala, much more than any kusala. At least that's the conclusion I'm getting to while evaluating the results of my own practice. I am jumping in again! I think the main disagreements are in two areas: 1/ That the development of kusala and akusala is a black-and-white mechanical sort of thing with no gradations inbetween. In other words, the effort or intention to do something is *either* kusala - leading to more kusala; or akusala - leading inevitably to only akusala. I think it is this mechanistic view of what kusala and akusala mean - a technical understanding - that is the problem. Every one of us, admittedly, has kusala and akusala moments arising at different times, often following in close succession, so no activity is all akusala or all kusala. To say that 'starting with akusala will only lead to more akusala' is assuming there are only akusala moments, and no conditions to develop kusala at all, but I don't think this is the case. The intention to follow the dhamma, the intention to practice, the intention to understand the teachings - these all have kusala aspects. "Self" may get in the way, but there are kusala intentions there as well. Also, Buddha said that development of samatha and sati are themselves conditions for development of kusala, as I understand it, so if one were actually developing these, that would lead to kusala as well. Can one be totally unconscious of akusala and think it is kusala really? There is always discomfort and a feeling that "something isn't right" when self-concept is in charge. If it wasn't the case, there would be no reason to awaken or discover the path. It is from discontent, based on realization of akusala, that the path becomes desirable. So I think we *can* identify akusala and correct it. Yes, it is just cittas arising and making whatever adjustments in understanding get made, but it does happen and it can happen in practice as well. I think the fear of doing anything, intending anything, or engaging with anything that is positive and that can develop positive accumulations, for fear that we will go down the wrong path, is itself lacking faith and akusala in its own right. The other point of disagreement is regarding the belief that intellectual understanding of the Dhamma is the one and only necessary factor in developing kusala and leading to awakening. It is the idea that indirect understanding can lead to direct experience without any intermediary practice. Those who practice believe that it is in the practice of direct development of sati and samatha that the Dhamma is realized, rather than in a mystical jump from intellectual understanding to direct seeing that comes by accident. The self-concept always needs to be identified and let go of, whatever one is doing, but it is in kusala practice that direct experience is concentrated, because it creates conditions and accumulations for the path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110342 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:01 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: I think that the understanding developed to the degree that can tell between a/kusala is essentially the precondition for the samatha practice of the kind that's described in the Vsm passages that Alex quoted (counting, connexion, fixing, etc). If there's no such understanding, then there's no knowing in real time whether one is attempting connexion in an akusala manner, and therefore only developing more akusala. As mentioned, this knowing that connexion right now is kusala is basically an outcome of considering Dhamma that one has heard, the understanding of which then finds application in the present moment. Jumping in *again* - I am seeing some room for coming together, as you spoke of earlier. I think we can agree that recognizing kusala intention for practice, and kusala carrying out of practice, is an important component of correct practice that will lead to further understanding. We may disagree that only consideration of dhamma, rather than experiential practice will lead to this understanding, but we can all agree that consideration and understanding of dhamma is a most important component for recognizing kusala and distinguishing it from akusala. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110343 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] We are alone. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Alone from birth to death throughout samsara, alone with this very citta now. "We are alone, there are no people" and this is just what the Buddha taught us.....just cittas experiencing objects through six doorways. > > We can never be reminded enough! Not to get too crazy with this, but I thought I would throw in that even the "we" that is "alone" is nonexistent as well. Since there is only citta and its object, there is not even anyone to be alone. There's just "what is." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110344 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: For Rob Ep and his question on finding the commentaries, again, go to "Useful Posts" and look under almost any topic. For example, try: > - Brahmajala > - Mulapariyaya > - Sisters > - Susima > - Meditation in the texts > - Vipassana > - Jhana and Nibbana > - Visuddhimagga > > Really, whatever interests you. Thank you, I will try that! > p.s All - the next Dhamma discussion gathering at our place in Sydney is on Sat 9th October in the afternoon (3 - 5.30 p.m). If anyone is free to join, it'll be very lively (thanks to Ken H and Herman with Pt as mediator:-) Ha ha, oh I would like to see that! Please tape and transcribe their casual interaction... ;-) > so pls let me know. Wish I could hop over the world and come say hello. Well, with the right citta, maybe I can... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110345 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:16 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > RobE: So I stand in a place where I can accept the Buddha's words without distorting them, and still look through the microscope of the analysis of dhammas presented here. I can stand there with anyone here, but I can't agree with the wrong and unnecessary view that the Buddha's teachings mean the opposite of what they say. > > pt: I'm not sure what you mean there - you mean that I'm saying "don't meditate" and that sort of supposed argument? I think that whole argument misses the point - for me it's more about practicality - it all goes down to discerning in real time whether there's kusala currently or not. That's really it as far as I can see. If one can't discern that right now, then there's no guarantee one's in fact following what the Buddha was encouraging right now. I think what you say here is pretty reasonable, and I don't mean to make more of what you say than what you mean. I was piggy-backing to some extent onto other things that have been said in the group, so you are right to think that you didn't deserve all of my feedback. As usual you are very nice, and that makes me feel bad for being so mean. Thanks for maintaining your niceness and equanimity and explaining your view on practice, which makes sense. I think you really *do* have a chance of moderating between Herman and Ken H. successfully, so good luck with that! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110346 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:22 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi RobE, > > > RobE: I think you give a good description of how self-view and self-based effort tend to gum up the works in anything we do. However, that doesn't make the activity akusala. > > pt: I think here I was writing in the sort of terminology that we settled on here in discussions - so "activity" like meditating, or running, etc, is basically a conventional description (basically a concept), while a/kusala cittas and other dhammas are the real thing we're concerned with in discussions so to speak. Well, I think that's sometimes a problem. We accept that "dhamma study" and "greater understanding of dhamma" which are also general concepts rather than direct descriptions of realities, are "good kusala" activities or involvements despite that, and when we talk about a "bad" activity such as meditation, the fact that it is a concept suddenly also becomes "bad." It's *all* conceptual when we talk, but we use concepts to point at realities. So when I talk about meditation, I am too talking about the real moments of experience and understanding that arise, rather than the general concept. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110347 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:48 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? philofillet Hi Pt, thanks > > Phil: I guess I'm still unclear on how the beginner could know the difference between kusala and akusala at the subtle degree you are getting at in your post. > > pt: As I understand, the only way to get to know the difference between kusala and akusala is by hearing the Dhamma and considering it. This then gradually results in an understanding which is able to tell the difference between a/kusala when they arise. Sure, not all the time, but slowly it develops. So, I don't think it's something that can be forced by trying to use a method or something. I mean, that trying itself has to be known as kusala or aksuala in the first place. Ph: I'm not the most devoted or ambitious meditator here by any means, but it seems to me that meditation (how it is commonly understood) is a great way to have a kind of laboratory in which to see what kind of akusala that we have read or heard about is arising. For example, if we've learned about mana, and while meditating thoughts of how great what we're doing is arise, then fall away, and a few moments later thoughts of hunger or horniness or irritation or whatever arise, isn't this a good way to confirm the mutability of the mind, the fleetness of changing mental states. Of course this sort of awareness could arise while we are doing whatever in daily life, but it seems to me that if one is sitting in a quiet room with one's eyes closed, watching the breathing, that observation of the breath is a kind of post that the mind lies down to, at moments, and that its movements here and there can be observed. In time, one can come to recognize moments when kusala, an absence of akusala (when one thinks how often the pali term is couched in terms of a- something) is present. You know, I don't really care whether this is all rooted in akusala or not, but I don't see why it need to be, the akusala aspects of what is going on beyond our control (our control, such as it is, not much, is exercised over attention to the breath, for example) can be observed. As you know, I'm more interested in conventional aspects of morality, so I don't care whether the way I am meditating is not kosher kusala or not, I find it helps to condition more resilience to objects, fewer knee jerk reactions, and its in those knee jerk reaction that the really harmful akusala happens I think. (i.e shouting at someone, lusting after someone in a way they can be aware of, killing a mosquito, or whatever...) Anything that makes it less likely that I will kill a mosquito or openly lust after someone is the most important thing as far as I'm concerned, far more important to me (who is not seeking liberation in this lifetime) than whether there are moments of kusala in meditation or not. And there is no doubt that even akusala rooted meditation conditions kusala behaviour later. If I sit meditating for an hour about loving kindness emenating from great loving me and spreading all around the world from the great loving phil the most wonderful metta spouting god of love in the world, well, what a lot of akusala, but guess what, there will be less hostile reactions to people later. (Not that I do that meditation anymore, just an example, certainly denied by people who do metta meditation, the conventional response is to say "people do metta meditation but then they lose their temper when things are bad, look at the simile of the maid and her mistress" and so on, but that is not the experience of most people who do metta, I think. It works in conditioning patient behaviour, whether rooted in akusala or not. Another ramble. Sorry Metta, Phil #110348 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ari, > > Glad you're "hanging in" with us... Barely! Amadaba, nabbana, it's all very confusing. I think chittas I have that down. > ... > --- On Mon, 27/9/10, a_true_lotus wrote: > >Who am I? > .... > S: An illusion.....just mental and physical phenomena... > .... > > S: I agree that it seems like that, it really seems like they are "my" thoughts, my habits, my thinking. In fact, now, there is just thinking. > > >A:Uh, but doesn't thinking come from us? If we are killed, we stop thinking? > ... > S: Just moments of thinking on and on and on. We think of 'life' as being the particular life-span of so many years, but actually, there's the birth and death of life, of thinking, at each moment. *Right. But while you are alive, you are thinking, while you are dead you are not thinking, so doesn't make sense that you are thinking? Just as this moment of thinking conditions the next moment of thinking, so does the last moment of thinking in "Ari's life" condition the next moment of thinking in the next life. *OK, Well, when my house was being destroyed by a tornado and I was in the basement, I was mostly screaming. So, if I had died, as a neighbor did, my last thoughts would have been screaming. Although, I have to admit I was fascinated by my dog that was somehow circling me, and my last thought might have been about my dog circling me. *But, yes, I get it. We all assume we're going to have a skillful death, but sometimes you don't die on a deathbed, you die, in your home, watering your orchids when a tornado you don't see comes upon you. Soon everything about this life, our family members, animals, all we hold dear will be forgotten and there will be more thinking about, more desires for more sense objects. This is the Truth of Dukkha and its cause, desire. OK. > >S:If awareness is aware of thinking, that's all it is - no "me" in it. > > >A:I kind of see that. > ... > S: Good, whenever there's awareness, no "Sarah", no "Ari" at all. Just thinking with joy, thinking with sadness, thinking with delight....whatever is conditioned at that moment! *I'm still confused. Who is doing the thinking? Where does the thinking come from? In the Satipatthana Sutta, under "Awareness of citta" (or thinking), the first example given is being aware of thinking with desire. Awareness can be aware of whatever is real in our lives at this moment. *Right. > >OK, it still seems like I am thinking. Even if I am meditating, it seems like I am meditating. > ... > S: Yes, seems like that to "thinking". This is why thinking (or citta) is said to be like a conjurer's trick - it deceives all the time because of ignorance. *If we are not thinking, then who is doing the thinking? *OK, there are thoughts, of a certain person, and then that person dies, and there are more thoughts in the next life, and then also thoughts of other living people. All the thoughts someone thinks, are forgotten. *I have to say, though, if you are talking about Einstein or Newton, or even Jesus or Buddha, you are talking about people who's thoughts are remembered for hundreds or thousands of years. But of course, if you look at it from a cosmic perspective, even remembering someone for 2000 years is nothing in the birth and death of stars, including our sun. > > > So, I was resting on my bed, and I asked "who am I?" and the answer was "I'm a depressed woman laying in bed". That seemed to be the answer. > > .... > > S: At such moments of thinking like this, isn't the reality again just various kinds of thinking - in this case thinking about oneself in such and such a state? Can there be awareness now for a moment of thinking as just thinking, no "Ari" in it? *Uh, I've never been able to separate myself from my moods. I draw pastel, and use vibrant color, but if I were to draw myself, I would use black. I take pills for depression but they don't work very well. Meditation and exercise work fairly well. > >A:*That is kind of blowing my mind. Thinking as just thinking? But thinking comes from my brain, and so it is of "me", isn't it? > ... > S: Even our ideas of "brain" are just objects of thinking. They are not real. The reality is the thinking at such times, regardless of what ideas, what dreams it thinks about. OK. > >A: *I can do an exercise where I eliminate myself from the picture, but really, when I go back to normal thinking, I'm still going to think that I am thinking, you know what I mean? > ... > S: Yes, so doing such exercises are not the way. We do them because we'd like to "eliminate myself from the picture". This is not the same as understanding the thinking, the seeing, the visible object or any other reality now for what it is - just a dhamma, not "me". OK, lost on that one. > >S:We usually find our various thinking about various ideas rather important, but actually, aren't these moments just fleeting, insignificant phenomena, "namas", passing on? *Here is how far I have gotten, as far as this notion. I have read a book by Pema Chodren, called "When Things Fall Apart". Since it was just after the tornado, I thought it was appropriate. Anyway, she goes into this whole notion of you habitual thoughts not amounting to much. We have inner dramas that really have no basis in reality. So, I'd say for myself, about 95% of my thinking, is this "habitual thinking" and only about %5 is factual, evidence based thinking. But she does not go off into where thinking originates (that I recall). > > >A:*That, I understand! Thoughts go through my meditation, slowly, but are there. Then I'll think about my dental appointment, or I'll think about something else, and I would guess that as one gathers experience in life, that thinking would chage, but you don't notice it unless you keep a journal or something. I can go back and read journals from my early 20's and while I find some personality traits - like similar like problems with anxiety, I do think much differently now that I am 48. > .... > S: And not only is the thinking different now from when we were younger, it is different at each moment. Who can say what we'll think about next? *I think about my own moods an awful lot. I have bipolar disorder and I'm constantly going to depression to a good mood. It's the first thing I think of when I wake up and I think of it, many times during the day. Impossible to know. Who can say what seeing will see, what hearing will hear? *Right. Different kinds of thinking and experience arise and fall away very rapidly. They arise because of various conditions and are not in anyone's control even for an instant. This is why we sometimes feel sad or dejected, as you've mentioned. We'd like our thinking, our experiences to be a certain way because of our various desires for different sense objects, but no Self can determine what will arise. Even the most pleasurable experiences don't last for an instant. Again, this is the truth of Dukkha and the cause of Dukkha. *Well, I guess the biggest thing that makes me depressed is the sheer number of hours my husbad spends working. I wish we had more time together but we don't. We've even asked his supervisor if he could work less, and make less money, but that's a "no" on that. I try not to get too downtrodden about it, as there are so many people in the opposite situation where they have no work, and are losing their homes, stuff like that. So, I supposed my sadness in this, is my desire to be around my husband more. > >But the thoughts do seem like they are coming from me, and if I write a journal, that is coming from me. But, I guess I'd have to admit that "me" or "I" changes. > ... > S: Yes, it seems like that and, as you say, the "Me' changes. Is the seeing now "Me"? Is the good thought about Dhamma now "Me"? Is the annoyance "Me"? Really, it's just a label we stick on a multitude of different experiences. In truth, no "Me" can ever be found, only imagined. But if I meet another person, they surely seem that they are physically there, visually there, and are speaking their thoughts. In the cosmic realm, nobody is anywhere, but in "real life" there are objects and other people and other people's thoughts. My friends don't seem imaginary to me. > >A:Thank you. I was really hated for mentioning my life experiences and am hesitant to do it again. I think it arose from the fact that we are not having hard economic times, and others are. So, then when I talk about going to Maui, or my horse that cost $1500/ month for board and riding lessons, other people get upset. > .... > S: So, we learn to be considerate and understanding of others feelings. However, in the end, only we can know our thinking and motives for mentioning this or that. *Well, I speak too much of things, perhaps, but then also don't see why it engenders hatred. > People get upset because of their own accumulated tendencies, but just as we don't like to get upset, we can see the value of developing metta and kindness to others, don't you think? *Yes. I recently gave up a revenge. I'm 48, on a spiritual path, and though I could wreak havak upon some folk, I decided not to, because revenge is not appropriate if you are on a spiritual path. Feeling Metta for them, well, that's going to take awhile! > > Let me know how the comments above sound. > > A:> Well, how can it be that thinking is just thinking. I'm sitting in a chair. The chair isn't thinking. I am near my dogs, they think, but not in the same way as humans. Thinking comes from the brain, no? I find that part a little confusing. > ... > S: Whether it is known as "Ari's thinking" or the "dog's thinking", it is just the reality, thinking which can be known. Yes, there's no "chair's thinking!". When there's awareness, there's no idea of "Ari" or "the dog". These are the objects of thinking. But many others would confirm that I do exist and my dog exists so it's not some figment of my imagination?? > This is such an important point - so please keep pursuing your good qus on it. (Sometimes I'm very slow to respond....so be patient...) > ... > >I remember reading about Sri Aurobindo and this notion that thoughts are just floating around, and you are an antenna, attract thoughts by your current spiritual level. Is it like that? That thoughts are just floating around? > ... > S: I think we need to distinguish between the reality, thinking, and the thoughts which thinking thinks about. These are just concepts or ideas and don't "float" anywhere. > > Metta > > Sarah I think I might be getting what you are saying. Certainly from meditation I can see that there are just thoughts. They come and go. So, your life is made up of these thoughts, which really maybe nobody really knows where they come from. Since we will all die, and most of us be forgotten shortly, then all our thoughts are ending. So, you could argue that we don't exist, either. And not only thinking, but the fact that the human body is made of all new elements every year or so and also the fact that after a certain age, we start to deteriorate. Then even thinking is subject. My mother in law had Alzheimer's. She was obviously still having thoughts, but had no awareness, or self determination in her thinking. And she had no short term memory, but her long term memory was OK, for a long while. Best, Ari #110349 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Ari (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/30/2010 11:13:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, whinney@... writes: I'm still confused. Who is doing the thinking? Where does the thinking come from? =============================== Here is perhaps a way of thinking about this, Ari: I look out the window and see that "it is raining." What is the "it" that is raining? ;-) That's actually a silly question, right? There is no thing that is doing an action called "raining." There is just the event, the process. It's a bit like a farmer telling a city guy that a seed has the power to sprout, and the city guy asking where in the seed the power can be found, on the surface or the interior. The farmer, of course, would just look at him as if he were crazy. The farmer didn't mean that there is some "sprouting-power" thing to be found anywhere in the seed. Likewise, when I say "I'm thinking," there is actually no thing called "I" or "the thinker," an agent that is carrying out an action called "thinking." There is just the event - the process of thinking. No doer of the deed. Now, on the other hand, one can say that the thinking, feeling, touching, hearing, etc, etc that is "mine" is different from that which is "yours." Now what is that about? The answer to that, as far as I can understand, is that there is legitimate distinguishing (though not strict separating) that can be made between streams of experience, the elements of each stream, due to kamma and memory, being interrelated. It is then a convention to think of this aggregate of interrelated mental and physical phenomena as a unity, an entity. The thinking that is part of one stream, conditioned,as it is most directly by the other elements of that stream, identifies all the elements as forming a being called "me". The same is the case within every stream. But there is no "self," no lasting core of identity, that is part of or underlies any psycho-physical aggregate. The seeming of a self is a matter of particular thinking arising as one process among the various interconnected processes of a stream. If a wave in the ocean were sentient, "it" would think in terms of "my self," imagining "itself" to be a one wave-entity living together with a host of other separate, wave-entities. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110350 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? truth_aerator Hi PT, KenH, Sarah, Jon, all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for your reply. > > > > Alex: However, IMHO, if one doesn't put in any effort, one will not gain any kusala. > > > pt: I believe that is really the root of the disagreement - effort >as such can be only kusala or akusala, no in-between - kusala effort >accompanies a kusala citta, and akusala effort accompanies an >akusala citta. So, if I'm putting in effort right now to gain kusala >later, then my effort right now is not kusala, See the suttas. Right effort has 4 parts. It can and DOES coexist with other akusala qualities. See its 2nd part. Generate desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of 1)non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen 2)abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen 3)for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen 4)For the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. ... "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. ... "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This is one's right effort. ... "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html Either one "generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen[etc]" Or one indulges in wrong effort with its consequences. Letting unwholesome states be unopposed IS WRONG EFFORT. With metta, Alex #110351 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:08 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? truth_aerator Hi Pt, all, > pt: I mean, I do sort of maintain a daily samatha practice, but so >far I think if there was any progress in samatha, it was thanks to >understanding gained from hearing and discussing, not from my >meditation practice as such. Wisdom is important not just for success in meditation, but in order to even do it in the first place (there are too many worldly distractions). >Further, as far as I can tell, something like 95% of it is spent in >>hindrances. Often, I get excited that some new experience is >kusala, but later on that also turns out to be akusala of a finer >grade. There are some moments that I think are really kusala, but >they happen spontaneously - kind of in spite of the practice. One may have 99 bad meditations, but on the 100th one it may be so good that it will help one progress on the path. It also goes without saying that mistakes will be made. So one needs to have discernment and mindfulness to quickly recognize them and apply right effort of "abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen". In any case, a proper effort must be made to flow against the streams of defilements. If one takes it easy and doesn't apply right effort, then one will drift along the path of least resistence (for the kilesas). === And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html ==== With metta, Alex #110352 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: I'm not the most devoted or ambitious meditator here by any means, but it seems to me that meditation (how it is commonly understood) is a great way to have a kind of laboratory in which to see what kind of akusala that we have read or heard about is arising. ...You know, I don't really care whether this is all rooted in akusala or not, but I don't see why it need to be, the akusala aspects of what is going on beyond our control (our control, such as it is, not much, is exercised over attention to the breath, for example) can be observed. As you know, I'm more interested in conventional aspects of morality, so I don't care whether the way I am meditating is not kosher kusala or not, I find it helps to condition more resilience to objects, fewer knee jerk reactions, and its in those knee jerk reaction that the really harmful akusala happens I think. (i.e shouting at someone, lusting after someone in a way they can be aware of, killing a mosquito, or whatever...) Anything that makes it less likely that I will kill a mosquito or openly lust after someone is the most important thing as far as I'm concerned, far more important to me (who is not seeking liberation in this lifetime) than whether there are moments of kusala in meditation or not. ...It works in conditioning patient behaviour, whether rooted in akusala or not. > > Another ramble. Sorry Good stuff! Keep rambling. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110353 From: Herman Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? egberdina Hi Rob E, On 30 September 2010 23:16, epsteinrob wrote: > > I think what you say here is pretty reasonable, and I don't mean to make > more of what you say than what you mean. I was piggy-backing to some extent > onto other things that have been said in the group, so you are right to > think that you didn't deserve all of my feedback. As usual you are very > nice, and that makes me feel bad for being so mean. Thanks for maintaining > your niceness and equanimity and explaining your view on practice, which > makes sense. I think you really *do* have a chance of moderating between > Herman and Ken H. successfully, so good luck with that! :-) > > You probably meant mediating rather than moderating :-) Cheers Herman #110354 From: Herman Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah egberdina That works for me, Howard. Nicely put. Cheers Herman On 1 October 2010 02:34, wrote: > > > Hi, Ari (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 9/30/2010 11:13:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > whinney@... writes: > > I'm still confused. Who is doing the thinking? Where does the thinking > come from? > =============================== > Here is perhaps a way of thinking about this, Ari: > I look out the window and see that "it is raining." What is the "it" > that is raining? ;-) That's actually a silly question, right? There is no > thing that is doing an action called "raining." There is just the event, > the > process. It's a bit like a farmer telling a city guy that a seed has the > power to sprout, and the city guy asking where in the seed the power can be > > found, on the surface or the interior. The farmer, of course, would just > look at him as if he were crazy. The farmer didn't mean that there is some > "sprouting-power" thing to be found anywhere in the seed. Likewise, when I > say > "I'm thinking," there is actually no thing called "I" or "the thinker," an > agent that is carrying out an action called "thinking." There is just the > event - the process of thinking. No doer of the deed. > Now, on the other hand, one can say that the thinking, feeling, > touching, hearing, etc, etc that is "mine" is different from that which is > "yours." Now what is that about? The answer to that, as far as I can > understand, > is that there is legitimate distinguishing (though not strict separating) > that can be made between streams of experience, the elements of each > stream, > due to kamma and memory, being interrelated. It is then a convention to > think of this aggregate of interrelated mental and physical phenomena as a > unity, an entity. The thinking that is part of one stream, conditioned,as > it > is most directly by the other elements of that stream, identifies all the > elements as forming a being called "me". The same is the case within every > stream. But there is no "self," no lasting core of identity, that is part > of > or underlies any psycho-physical aggregate. The seeming of a self is a > matter of particular thinking arising as one process among the various > interconnected processes of a stream. If a wave in the ocean were sentient, > "it" > would think in terms of "my self," imagining "itself" to be a one > wave-entity living together with a host of other separate, wave-entities. > > With metta, > Howard > > > Seamless Interdependency > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > > > > > #110355 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/30/2010 7:15:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: That works for me, Howard. Nicely put. ---------------------------------------- Thanks! :-) --------------------------------------- Cheers Herman ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. Good to hear from you! :-) Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110356 From: Herman Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah egberdina Hi Howard, On 1 October 2010 09:18, wrote: > > > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 9/30/2010 7:15:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > That works for me, Howard. Nicely put. > ---------------------------------------- > Thanks! :-) > --------------------------------------- > > Cheers > > Herman > ============================= > With metta, > Howard > > P. S. Good to hear from you! :-) > Likewise, likewise. It looks as though it will be up to me to fly the phenomenological flag at the gathering on the 9th. Or will you join us? Perhaps we can set up a satellite link :-) Cheers Herman #110357 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:07 am Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus [Phil] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Ari > > > You can't leave now, Phil, I wanted to find out the stuff about TNH and consumption! > > Well, it's just like I was saying, that we are always consuming through > the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense and mind sense, and sometimes there is wise consumption where there is attention to what is being and > consumed and possibly wisdom that reminds us of the ultimately impermanent, impersonal and non-satisfactory nature of it, and sometimes there is mindless devouring, that's all he was saying, I think. *I see. I think I do the "wise consumption". For one thing, I don't think money makes a person happy. For example, I want to go to Nepal next year, but it's ubber expensive. I'd also like a new horse, but a new horse in Hunt Seat or dressage the board and other things like vet appointments, training, riding lessons, etc. was $1500/ mo when I had my horse Redford. *So, now I'm upset that I don't have enough money to keep a horse AND go to Nepal. *But the wiser part of myself, says I have enough. So if someone does something bad to us, and rather than wisely taking it as vipaka (the results of our past kamma) we dwell on it and keep consuming it again and again there will be nothing but crappy feelings (i.e preventable depression) arising from it. *Right. The first Buddhist CD set I got was "The Mindful Way through Depression" which was excellent. Of course it was directed for those of use who tend to get depressed, but does go into the basic teaching. Same goes for all kinds of other sensory consumption. For example, if I look at > pornography one day, it is very predictable and guaranteed that I will feel crappy later, that's the way it works, for me at least. That kind of prentable depression TNH was referring to isn't of course the clinical depression that you are dealing with, that's a tougher opponent, as you know. *Yup. But you know what, I think my doctor after 10 years of pills that don't work, has finally found one that works. And of course, my daily practice and tons of aerobic exercise help! But we can do a lot to be happier and less remoreseful by watching what we eat through the six senses. Meditation is like a training in that, I think. *Right. > OK, sorry Ari, but I really am out of here! Have a great time in Hawaii. Maybe it would be a good opportunity to look at the way we consume pleasant objects. *Oh, definitely. We are staying at the Ritz Carlson which has it's own private beach. Every time I watch a show where people are lying in the water, where it is warm, I can practically feel the water myself! So, I am already consuming pleasant things in my imaginary life. Every summer I go to an area of Quebec that has to be one of the most beautiful on earth and stay in a beautiful house, and for three weeks it seems that there are pleasant sense objects from morning to night. I try to reflect that it is good kamma that has brought me into this situation and if I can continue to consume wisely, further conditions will be created for more good vipaka. I see. Of course the purpose of Buddhism is not to create more and more pleasant vipaka, the purpose is to get out of the cycle of samsara, but we are where we are and having attachment to wholesome, non-harmful forms of pleasure seems sensible. Thanks Phil. Best, Ari #110358 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:14 pm Subject: Let's be honest... philofillet Hi all I don't think I'm going to become one of the meditation defenders here, but my post yesterday has me thinking. Is there more likely to be awareness of the arising and falling away of mental factors, of the mutability of the mind, fleet moments, the first slight stirrings of defilements at the arising level, when one is a) sitting in a quiet room with one's eyes shut and attention on the breath, or b) when moving around the house with attention on this on that, or walking down a city street with attention on this and that. Can anyone honestly claim that the answer is not a)? I mean really and honestly. And if it is agreed that the answer is a), does it matter if moments of akusala or a lot of akusala or nothing but akusala is inolved in the sitting? I'm more interested in the first question, really. And let's remember, truthfulness is one of the perfections. Metta, Phil #110359 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:20 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi Ari Still here... There is a very important sutta about the way we consume objects in an intoxicated way, not so much about the convnetional meaning of consuming in the marketplace, but much more momentary, and it will be timely for you, because it is about a deer hunter and that season is coming soon in America (unfortunately) isn't it? But the sutta is not available online so I will have to summarize it myself, but not today, maybe tomorrow. Thanks again. Metta, Phil > > Well, it's just like I was saying, that we are always consuming through > > the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense and mind sense, and sometimes there is wise consumption where there is attention to what is being and > > consumed and possibly wisdom that reminds us of the ultimately impermanent, impersonal and non-satisfactory nature of it, and sometimes there is mindless devouring, that's all he was saying, I think. > > *I see. I think I do the "wise consumption". For one thing, I don't think money makes a person happy. For example, I want to go to Nepal next year, but it's ubber expensive. I'd also like a new horse, but a new horse in Hunt Seat or dressage the board and other things like vet appointments, training, riding lessons, etc. was $1500/ mo when I had my horse Redford. > #110360 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:16 am Subject: Re: memories of the late Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. gazita2002 Hallo Lukas, Nina, I found my little book of 'scribbles' from days with Ven. Dhammadharo. The book was lost for a while, I move around too much:) "Each moment of right understanding gradually eliminates wrong understanding but we should understand that it takes a long, long time" - something you may not want to hear, Lukas, but I think we have to accept as it as truth. "if no awareness arises to experience a reality, can ther be anything else which is aware?" " No, indeed, not!" "Desire for results is real, it can be helpful BUT this field can also be very dangerous - it depends on the desire and why it is desiring". I guess this may mean chandha? Patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > I am trying to remember more about Ven. Dhammadharo's sayings. > When we were on an India trip in Calcutta I asked him to speak into > my recorder a message for Lodewijk in Holland. He reminded us that we > are clinging to the company of people. In reality there is no > Lodewijk in Holland, no Nina in Calcutta. It was more or less the > same as what Kh Sujin said about 'being alone'. > > Once after a daana for the monks he reminded us about the danger of > the latent tendencies, anusayas. He said that as Dhamma students we > may feel confortable, not killing, stealing, lying, not performing > evil deeds. But the latent tendencies can take us by surprise and > condition strong akusala that can motivate evil deeds we thought we > were not capable of. They are so unforeseeable, unpredictable. > > About understanding anattaa: we may think that as beginners this is > most difficult. But when we better understand that seeing is naama, > visible object is ruupa, it is already a beginning of understanding > non-self. He said: 'It is naama, that means not self. It is ruupa, > that means not self.' > ------ > Nina. > #110361 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/30/2010 7:24:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Likewise, likewise. It looks as though it will be up to me to fly the phenomenological flag at the gathering on the 9th. Or will you join us? Perhaps we can set up a satellite link :-) ================================= I must have been napping! WHAT gathering on the 9th? Where? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110362 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:54 pm Subject: Re: Let's be honest... kenhowardau Hi Phil, ----------- <. . .> Ph: > Is there more likely to be awareness of the arising and falling away of mental factors, of the mutability of the mind, fleet moments, the first slight stirrings of defilements at the arising level, when one is a) sitting in a quiet room with one's eyes shut and attention on the breath, ----------- If satipatthana was about "catching" dhammas then a quiet spot and a concentrated mind would be ideal. (Just like when catching fish.) But satipatthana is not about catching anything. ----------------- Ph: > or b) when moving around the house with attention on this on that, or walking down a city street with attention on this and that. ----------------- When you are moving around the house, what realities are there to be known? There are namas and rupas, aren't there? So the realities to be known are exactly the same as when you are sitting quietly. And how do those namas and rupas become known? Is it by some cunning, dhamma-catching technique? Or do they become known when you have heard, and understood, the Buddha's teaching? The right answer is the second one of course. And the same applies to the strength (or clarity) of your "knowing". Most people will tell you it depends on some kind of satipatthana-strengthening technique. But they are wrong. It depends on how much satipatthana there has been in the past. ------------------------ Ph: > Can anyone honestly claim that the answer is not a)? I mean really and honestly. And if it is agreed that the answer is a), does it matter if moments of akusala or a lot of akusala or nothing but akusala is inolved in the sitting? I'm more interested in the first question, really. And let's remember, truthfulness is one of the perfections. ------------------------ Hand on heart, Phil, the answer is not a. Ken H #110363 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > On 30 September 2010 23:16, epsteinrob wrote: > > > > > I think what you say here is pretty reasonable, and I don't mean to make > > more of what you say than what you mean. I was piggy-backing to some extent > > onto other things that have been said in the group, so you are right to > > think that you didn't deserve all of my feedback. As usual you are very > > nice, and that makes me feel bad for being so mean. Thanks for maintaining > > your niceness and equanimity and explaining your view on practice, which > > makes sense. I think you really *do* have a chance of moderating between > > Herman and Ken H. successfully, so good luck with that! :-) > > > > > You probably meant mediating rather than moderating :-) You may be right, but I kind of like moderating too! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #110364 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:26 pm Subject: Floated by Joy :-)! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Joy (P?ti) Link to Awakening! The Joy Link to Awakening (Piti-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of suffusing contentment, and the property of gladdening satisfaction. This Joy Link to Awakening manifests as mental elation, which can reach five successively increasing degrees of intensity: 1: Minor Joy, which can raise the hair on the body when thrilled. 2: Momentary Joy, which is flashing like lightning at various occasions. 3: Showering Joy, which breaks over the body repeatedly like sea-waves. 4: Uplifting Joy, which can be strong enough to even levitate the body. 5: Pervading Joy, which is like a heavy sponge all saturated with water. Visuddhimagga IV 94-9 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (asava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Joy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, on disillusion, on ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who has aroused enthusiastic energy, there arises a joy not of this world & the Joy Link to Awakening emerges there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Any one convinced by understanding of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, gets an enthusiastic sense of the sublime good goal of Nibbana & gains gladness connected, joined, and fused with this Dhamma...! In any one gladdened, Joy is born. The body of the Joyous is calmed. One of calm body experiences pleasure and happiness! The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. The concentrated mind sees and knows things as they really are. This brings disgust and disillusion, which enables full direct experience of mental release. It is in this way that Joy indeed is a factor leading to Awakening! MN [i 37-8], AN [iii 21-3], DN [iii 21-3] <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110365 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > On 1 October 2010 09:18, wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, Herman - > > > > In a message dated 9/30/2010 7:15:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > > That works for me, Howard. Nicely put. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Thanks! :-) > > --------------------------------------- > > > > Cheers > > > > Herman > > ============================= > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > P. S. Good to hear from you! :-) > > > > Likewise, likewise. It looks as though it will be up to me to fly the > phenomenological flag at the gathering on the 9th. Or will you join us? > Perhaps we can set up a satellite link :-) You just gave me an idea. Maybe sometime we can all get onto google video and videoconference with other dsg folk. All free, and I understand it's not too hard to set up. There's a talk version too if someone doesn't have a webcam. How about a dsg computer video conference? Best, Robert E. = = = = = #110366 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:22 pm Subject: Re: Let's be honest... epsteinrob Hi Ken H! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Phil, > > ----------- > <. . .> > Ph: > Is there more likely to be awareness of the arising and falling away of mental factors, of the mutability of the mind, fleet moments, the first slight stirrings of defilements at the arising level, when one is a) sitting in a quiet room with one's eyes shut and attention on the breath, > ----------- > > If satipatthana was about "catching" dhammas then a quiet spot and a concentrated mind would be ideal. (Just like when catching fish.) But satipatthana is not about catching anything. > > ----------------- > Ph: > or b) when moving around the house with attention on this on that, or walking down a city street with attention on this and that. > ----------------- > > When you are moving around the house, what realities are there to be known? There are namas and rupas, aren't there? So the realities to be known are exactly the same as when you are sitting quietly. > > And how do those namas and rupas become known? Is it by some cunning, dhamma-catching technique? Hm... why not put it in the most negative possible terms, so it will seem wrong no matter what. Meditation is not a "cunning dhamma-catching technique," it is a way of practicing being open and observing what is there, as well as understanding and calming fabrications. No "catching" involved. > Or do they become known when you have heard, and understood, the Buddha's teaching? Heard, understood and correctly applied. > The right answer is the second one of course. And the same applies to the strength (or clarity) of your "knowing". Most people will tell you it depends on some kind of satipatthana-strengthening technique. But they are wrong. In your humble opinion, based on your belief. > It depends on how much satipatthana there has been in the past. Infinite regress. > > ------------------------ > Ph: > Can anyone honestly claim that the answer is not a)? I mean really and honestly. And if it is agreed that the answer is a), does it matter if moments of akusala or a lot of akusala or nothing but akusala is inolved in the sitting? > > I'm more interested in the first question, really. And let's remember, truthfulness is one of the perfections. > ------------------------ > > Hand on heart, Phil, the answer is not a. Your opinion. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #110367 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:55 am Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Ari > > > You will find a lot of help with that question here! Many people will help you understand that in the ultimate sense there is no "Ari", only dhammas, momentary and fleeting. But where do the dhammas come from, then? It is our clinging to a sense of "Ara" that causes us a lot of unnecessary suffering. OK. I know that at 48, my mind thinks that I can do certain exercise, but my body tells me differently. My husband, the same age, is finding the same thing. My > take is not quite so ultimate and deep, I think that there will be a sense of "Phil" through this life, there is no way around that for me, so I like to reflect on what Phil is as a person, what he has done to help people and avoided during to hurt people, how his story is playing out. If we get caught up too much in thinking what other > people think about "Ari" of course that causes us misery, but if we > reflect on the good things "Ari" has done, it can cause a lot of > encouragement and condition more good behaviour. *Right now, I am giving up a revenge. I always get revenge, it's something about me. So, I'm giving it up for this one instance where I know for a fact, I can do a lot of damage. I am kind of different from most people on this list because I put a lot of > emphasis on conditional morality which at first glance just looks like common sense. (But the difference from other religions and > humanist philosophies is that with the Dhamma, are good behaviour > leads to a kind of chain reaction of development - because of a lack of remorse over bad behaviour, the mind has better conditions to settle into the kind of concentration and understanding that lead to liberation from the need to be concerned about morality.) *I feel little remorse for people who have wronged me in a truly bad way. I can be ruthless and cruel. That is why I want to just walk away from the situation, and not get the revenge. I guess that is part of my practice. You know, I think my biggest fear, is that by walking away, people will think I am weak. > Anways, the things that Sarah, Nina, Ken H, Jon and other students of A. Sujin, their teacher, will tell you are certainly true in the ultimate sense and we are very fortunate to be awake to hearing about it! In the ultimate sense, seen with the understanding of a liberated mind, there is no "Ari", only fleeting elements called dhammas, in Pali nama and rupa, or the khandas, as you know, called skandas in > Mahayana Buddhism. Right. Everything is fleeting, nothing is permanent, but there still seems to be something here, that is "I". I am aging. I am impermanent, I am going to die. After I die, "I" will not be. "I" will die. > Anyways, welcome. I like your practice of finding one inspiring thing a day, it's very healthy. If we feel happy and energetic and > joyful, we have more energy and capactiy to avoid bad behaviour, and avoiding bad behaviour helps our minds to settle into the development that *really* sees into the things people will *talk* about here. > > Metta, > > Phil I have problems with chronic depression, and I think it helps a bit. I mostly find stuff in the woods. Right now, the leaves are changing, and people drive here, to the St. Croix river valley to watch the fall color. Except we have fall color just looking out our window. I often go to the woods for inspiration and usually find something to be inspired about. There is the biggest tree in the forest, that I call "Big Burl". I have been trying to figure out what type of tree it is, but the leaves are so high up, I can't see the leaves. So, now it's been dropping these crimson red leaves, teh most beautiful of all, and now I know, Big Burl is a Maple. Big Burl has got to be 150 - 200 years old, and is as big as a small Redwood. Talk about fleeting life, I notice a change in the woods every day. I dno't know if fall accelerates this change, but it seems to be happening pretty rapidly and I'll be curious to visit in winter, and see if it is as fleeting then. Best, Ari #110368 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:11 pm Subject: Lost messages ptaus1 Hi all, Regarding the messages that got lost a few days ago, Yahoo explained that this was due to a technical problem they had, so all the messages should reapper on the list some time soon. Attached below is a message by Yahoo. Best wishes pt > Hi everyone, check out our most recent blog post: http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/?p=958 Some messages have been delayed (possibly as many as five days) due to an outage on one of our mail machines. We are in the process of sending out the delayed messages and expect to catch up in the next few days. You do not have to resend any messages. Thank you for your patience. #110369 From: "antony272b2" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:22 pm Subject: Helpful & Unhelpful Questions (4NT or Self-views) antony272b2 Hi, This post is not so much a question or asking for help but some insights and sutta quotes I wanted to share. I've been struggling with unhelpful self-view questions such as "Surely samsara would be a better place overall for other beings if only I could attain a permanent state of non-existence?", "Is my karmic account balance too negative such that Nibbana is impossible for me?", "Will my rebirth after death be thumbs up or thumbs down?", "Will all of my experience refer back to an individual such that I will never get to witness much of the results of any generous actions?". Much of these questions give me excuses to be lazy. Here is a list of other unhelpful questions from the suttas, followed by helpful questions based on the Four Noble Truths: "Are bliss and pain, the self and the cosmos self-produced?" "...produced by another?" "...both self-produced and produced by another?" "...neither self-produced nor produced by another?" (Udana 6.6) "Is the agent who performs an act of kamma the same as the person experiencing the result?" "...someone else?" "...both the same person and someone else?" "...neither the same person nor someone else?" (sutta ref?) "Was I in the past?" "What was I in the past?" "How was I in the past?" "Shall I be in the future?" "What shall I be in the future?" "How shall I be in the future?" "Am I?" "What am I?" "How am I?" (Majjhima 2) Now I'm asking helpful questions free of self-view including: "Is this dukkha?" "Is this the origination of dukkha?" "Is this the cessation of dukkha?" "Is this the way leading to the cessation of dukkha?" (adapted from Majjhima 2) Thanks for listening. Happy Uposatha Day everyone! With metta / Antony. #110370 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:27 pm Subject: Re: Let's be honest... kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---------- <. . .> RE: > Hm... why not put it in the most negative possible terms, so it will seem wrong no matter what. ---------- I leave that to the meditators. --------------- RE: > Meditation is not a "cunning dhamma-catching technique," it is a way of practicing being open and observing what is there, as well as understanding and calming fabrications. No "catching" involved. --------------- A way of "practicing being open" "observing what is there" and "calming fabrications"! Need I say more? I am not trying to be offensive. If anything, I am trying not to be offensive. But in the eyes of a non-meditating Dhamma student, any description of vipassana or samatha as a formal practice will always sound like double-talk. (That is, any description of vipassana or samatha as being "something other than a conditioned dhamma" will always sound like double-talk.) ------------------ KH: > > Or do they become known when you have heard, and understood, the Buddha's teaching? RE: > Heard, understood and correctly applied. ------------------ Yes, that's what I said. "Dhammas become known" when "the Buddha's teaching is correctly applied". They are two ways of saying the same thing. ------------------------ KH: > > Hand on heart, Phil, the answer is not a. RE: > Your opinion. ------------------------ My understanding of the Dhamma. Ken H #110371 From: Herman Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Let's be honest... egberdina Hi Ken H and Phil, On 1 October 2010 14:54, Ken H wrote: > > When you are moving around the house, what realities are there to be known? > There are namas and rupas, aren't there? > Thanks for the questions, Phil. Ken, you seem to be unaware of the role of intention in framing the narrative and experience of one's life. When one intends to push a vacuum cleaner around the house, that is what is being lived. It is open for you to check that for yourself. When you are pushing a vacuum cleaner around the house, what is definitely not being lived is "there are namas and rupas". Phil asked for honesty, and perhaps it is the case that you are free of intention, and therefore have no narrative of yourself in the world. But as for me, I honestly do not experience namas and rupas when I am vacuuming, I experience something aptly described as vacuuming. So the realities to be known are exactly the same as when you are sitting > quietly. > > No, not at all. When you intend sitting quietly, you live sitting quietly, not vacuuming, or "namas and rupas". But beyond sitting quietly, there is the following possibility: the temporary suspension of intention towards the world, and therefore also the narration of you in the world, that goes hand in hand with that intention. It is not obvious from your manner of discussion that you reach such a place at will, or that you think it relevant. Cheers Herman #110372 From: Herman Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah egberdina Hi Howard, On 1 October 2010 12:34, wrote: > > > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 9/30/2010 7:24:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > Likewise, likewise. It looks as though it will be up to me to fly the > phenomenological flag at the gathering on the 9th. Or will you join us? > Perhaps we can set up a satellite link :-) > ================================= > I must have been napping! WHAT gathering on the 9th? Where? > > On the 9th of October there will be an informal dhamma discussion at Jon and Sarah's pad in Manly. As luck would have it, Vicki and I were already planning to have lunch with a friend in Manly on that very day. So there you have it :-) Cheers Herman #110373 From: Herman Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah egberdina Hi Rob E, On 1 October 2010 15:14, epsteinrob wrote: > > > Hi Herman. > > > Likewise, likewise. It looks as though it will be up to me to fly the > > phenomenological flag at the gathering on the 9th. Or will you join us? > > Perhaps we can set up a satellite link :-) > > You just gave me an idea. Maybe sometime we can all get onto google video > and videoconference with other dsg folk. All free, and I understand it's not > too hard to set up. There's a talk version too if someone doesn't have a > webcam. > > How about a dsg computer video conference? > > To the Luddites, it will be just more of the same namas and rupas. To the likes of you and me, the developments in technology open up possibilities previously undreamed of. I like your thought, but will not volunteer my services :-) Cheers Herman #110374 From: "antony272b2" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 12:33 am Subject: Re: Helpful & Unhelpful Questions (4NT or Self-views) antony272b2 Sorry about the reference to non-existence in that post. Once when I had a severe bout of sloth and torpor I told a monk that I wanted to go to sleep and not wake up again. He smiled and replied "It doesn't happen like that." I wasn't suicidal because I wanted to keep breathing in my sleep! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Hi, > > This post is not so much a question or asking for help but some insights and sutta quotes I wanted to share. > > I've been struggling with unhelpful self-view questions such as "Surely samsara would be a better place overall for other beings if only I could attain a permanent state of non-existence?", "Is my karmic account balance too negative such that Nibbana is impossible for me?", "Will my rebirth after death be thumbs up or thumbs down?", "Will all of my experience refer back to an individual such that I will never get to witness much of the results of any generous actions?". Much of these questions give me excuses to be lazy. > > Here is a list of other unhelpful questions from the suttas, followed by helpful questions based on the Four Noble Truths: > > "Are bliss and pain, the self and the cosmos self-produced?" > "...produced by another?" > "...both self-produced and produced by another?" > "...neither self-produced nor produced by another?" > (Udana 6.6) > > "Is the agent who performs an act of kamma the same as the person experiencing the result?" > "...someone else?" > "...both the same person and someone else?" > "...neither the same person nor someone else?" > (sutta ref?) > > "Was I in the past?" > "What was I in the past?" > "How was I in the past?" > "Shall I be in the future?" > "What shall I be in the future?" > "How shall I be in the future?" > "Am I?" > "What am I?" > "How am I?" > (Majjhima 2) > > Now I'm asking helpful questions free of self-view including: > > "Is this dukkha?" > "Is this the origination of dukkha?" > "Is this the cessation of dukkha?" > "Is this the way leading to the cessation of dukkha?" > (adapted from Majjhima 2) > > Thanks for listening. Happy Uposatha Day everyone! > > With metta / Antony. > #110375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: memories of the late Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. nilovg Dear Azita, thank you. Op 27-sep-2010, om 13:16 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > "Desire for results is real, it can be helpful BUT this field can > also be very dangerous - it depends on the desire and why it is > desiring". I guess this may mean chandha? ------- N: Kusala chandha. Chandha may be akusala or kusala. Difficult to know the difference. Nina. #110376 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 3 Types of Persons... sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Ven Samahita & all), I thought this sutta was relevant to your thread on your treatment and recovery. --- On Mon, 27/9/10, bhikkhu3 wrote: >On the 3 Types of Persons similar to Sick People: The Blessed Buddha once noted: There are these three kinds of bodily sick people: One will recover by himself, even without any doctor or any medicine.. One will never recover, even if treated by the best doctor & best medicine.. One will only recover if treated by right medicine and a good doctors advice.. It is for the sake of this last person, that doctors work and medicine is made! Similarly with those mentally infected by illness of greed, hate & ignorance! There are these three kinds of mentally sick people: One will cure & free himself, even without meeting this Buddha-Dhamma... One will never be cured, even if taught this Dhamma by the Buddha himself... One will be cured & freed, if & only if, taught & learning this Buddha-Dhamma... It is for the sake of this last type of person, that this Dhamma should be shared! The Best Doctor treating one of his disciples for a physical illness. Mental Dis-Ease is found in almost all beings! <.... Source (abbreviated excerpt): The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya. Sutta III:22 The sick [I:120] Gila-na- http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html .... S: Yes, even if we don't need medicine and doctors now, we're all mentally sick and all need to hear and learn the Buddha-Dhamma. Wishing everyone a good recovery! Metta Sarah ==== #110377 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:42 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi RobE, > RobE: 1/ That the development of kusala and akusala is a black-and-white mechanical sort of thing with no gradations inbetween. In other words, the effort or intention to do something is *either* kusala - leading to more kusala; or akusala - leading inevitably to only akusala. I think it is this mechanistic view of what kusala and akusala mean - a technical understanding - that is the problem. pt: I think that's what the abhidhamma says basically - either kusala or akusala, no in-between (discounting kiriya for us mortals). Sure, there can be gradation in either of the two, but no in-between. > RobE: Every one of us, admittedly, has kusala and akusala moments arising at different times, often following in close succession, so no activity is all akusala or all kusala. pt: Agreed. > RobE: To say that 'starting with akusala will only lead to more akusala' is assuming there are only akusala moments, and no conditions to develop kusala at all, but I don't think this is the case. pt: Well, this bit is tricky - I think akusala generally conditions more akusala, but on rare occasions it can be a condition for kusala (e.g. when panna recognises anger as anatta). However, this particular kusala arises I think mainly thanks to kusala in the past, so not thanks to current akusala, so to speak. So it arises in spite of akusala now. Not sure if this makes sense. > RobE: So I think we *can* identify akusala and correct it. Yes, it is just cittas arising and making whatever adjustments in understanding get made, but it does happen and it can happen in practice as well. pt: I'd like to think that, though I can't really confirm it in practical terms yet. So far discussing works much better. > RobE: I think the fear of doing anything, intending anything, or engaging with anything that is positive and that can develop positive accumulations, for fear that we will go down the wrong path, is itself lacking faith and akusala in its own right. pt: Yes, I think fear is in essence aversion, so not really understanding. Though I think when there's objection to formal practice, it's based on some sort of understanding Dhamma, not fear. > RobE: The other point of disagreement is regarding the belief that intellectual understanding of the Dhamma is the one and only necessary factor in developing kusala and leading to awakening. pt: I think that's from the sutta that numbers the most important factors for development - hearing, considering, understanding, and I forget what was the fourth one. > RobE: It is the idea that indirect understanding can lead to direct experience without any intermediary practice. Those who practice believe that it is in the practice of direct development of sati and samatha that the Dhamma is realized, rather than in a mystical jump from intellectual understanding to direct seeing that comes by accident. pt: I guess then the argument depends on what's meant by practice, so I'll include here your other post: > RobE: So when I talk about meditation, I am too talking about the real moments of experience and understanding that arise, rather than the general concept. pt: That's interesting because it sounds very close to how Sarah for examples defines development-bhavana, as far as I know, bhavana being any occasions when panna arises. But then her question becomes something like, okay - so how can you sit down to meditate on purpose to develop sati or something else, since doing that by definition most probably requires atta view, not understanding of anatta. I mean, anatta would more conform to the occasion of panna arising anywhere, anytime, by conditions, rather than atta trying to manipulate conditions favorably. My objection would usually be something like - well, atta doesn't necessarily has to be involved, it can be just sitting down as an outcome of calm arising with kusala citta that sees advantage in non-engagement with senses - but I think I haven't yet found an explanation through which Sarah couldn't poke some serious holes, so perhaps I'll let you two ferret that one out for now. Best wishes pt #110378 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:46 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi RobE, > Jumping in *again* - I am seeing some room for coming together, as you spoke of earlier. I think we can agree that recognizing kusala intention for practice, and kusala carrying out of practice, is an important component of correct practice that will lead to further understanding. We may disagree that only consideration of dhamma, rather than experiential practice will lead to this understanding, but we can all agree that consideration and understanding of dhamma is a most important component for recognizing kusala and distinguishing it from akusala. pt: Sounds good. Best wishes pt #110379 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 2:24 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Phil, > Ph: You know, I don't really care whether this is all rooted in akusala or not, but I don't see why it need to be, the akusala aspects of what is going on beyond our control (our control, such as it is, not much, is exercised over attention to the breath, for example) can be observed. As you know, I'm more interested in conventional aspects of morality, so I don't care whether the way I am meditating is not kosher kusala or not, I find it helps to condition more resilience to objects, fewer knee jerk reactions, and its in those knee jerk reaction that the really harmful akusala happens I think. (i.e shouting at someone, lusting after someone in a way they can be aware of, killing a mosquito, or whatever...) Anything that makes it less likely that I will kill a mosquito or openly lust after someone is the most important thing as far as I'm concerned, far more important to me (who is not seeking liberation in this lifetime) than whether there are moments of kusala in meditation or not. And there is no doubt that even akusala rooted meditation conditions kusala behaviour later. If I sit meditating for an hour about loving kindness emenating from great loving me and spreading all around the world from the great loving phil the most wonderful metta spouting god of love in the world, well, what a lot of akusala, but guess what, there will be less hostile reactions to people later. (Not that I do that meditation anymore, just an example, certainly denied by people who do metta meditation, the conventional response is to say "people do metta meditation but then they lose their temper when things are bad, look at the simile of the maid and her mistress" and so on, but that is not the experience of most people who do metta, I think. It works in conditioning patient behaviour, whether rooted in akusala or not. pt: I see where you're coming from. I guess for me, there's kusala and then there's kusala. Metta and samatha are great, they can condition a lot of kusala in the future, but I think anatta is the main message of a Buddha. And I think understanding of anatta is probably the most potent in reducing unwholesome tendencies that you describe. And thankfully, such understanding can arise anywhere, anytime. At least, to me it doesn't seem it's tied down to any sort of particular practice, method or place. I mean, anger is anger, and when it's known as anatta, it has no more hold over you at the time, no matter where and when that anger arose. I guess this has to do with your other question, so I'll add it here: > Phil: Is there more likely to be awareness of the arising and falling away of mental factors, of the mutability of the mind, fleet moments, the first slight stirrings of defilements at the arising level, when one is a) sitting in a quiet room with one's eyes shut and attention on the breath, or b) when moving around the house with attention on this on that, or walking down a city street with attention on this and that. pt: For me, a few years back while I was reading mostly modern meditation books - the answer would have been (a). But since I've been reading abhidhamma stuff and sort of sitting on the fence between dsg meditators and non-meditators, I have to say that now the correct answer seems to be (b), though I kind of still hope (a) might have something to it. But, since those who're sitting on the fence are most likely to get caught in the crossfire, I'll stop here. Thanks for the discussion, always good to hear alternate POVs. Best wishes pt #110380 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 2:32 am Subject: What I heard, From audio (DSG org), 2007-07-05,a , no 2. nilovg Dear friends, From audio (DSG org), 2007-07-05,a , no 2. We used to talk about visible object. How much understanding is there of visible object as it is? It cannot be anything else but an element that can be seen. There are so many ideas about the reality that is seen as something permanent, as a story. Ven. Pannabahulo: How can we speed up or facilitate the awareness of non-self? Kh. Sujin: Why do you have to do that? Ven. Pannabahulo: I must be doing something, working on something. Kh Sujin: Is that a citta with wrong view or right view? One may be thinking of ways and means to have result, to have more right understanding and less akusala. What about this moment, can this be a moment of right understanding by discussion of whatever appears now? Otherwise there will never be any understanding of reality at all. This is the only way. Ven. Pannabahulo: We all are here because of conditions, but I do not see the non-self of this. Kh Sujin: Even though there is seeing now, there is not the understanding of that characteristic which sees. We can understand how it arises and in this way it can be seen that there is no self who can do anything about the arising of seeing or thinking. This does not mean that you have to experience now the eyebase and the cetasikas that arise with the citta. But right understanding can be developed in order to see that all realities are anattaa. Just understand them as they are. One should not have any idea of creating realities or changing them. One should not think : ?I have to do this or that?. Just develop more understanding of the anattaness of realities, and in this way a greater understanding will be built up that can penetrate the true nature of realities right now. This is the way to eliminate doubt and the wrong view of self. Even the monks at the Buddha?s time who lived with the Buddha followed him in order to listen again. Sa?nkhaarakkhandha (including sobhana cetasikas and pa~n~naa) which has been accumulated can condition more right understanding at the moment of listening. There can be awareness right now, who knows? But this cannot be forced, one should have no desire to have more awareness by different ways. Ven. Pannabahulo: What is wrong to develop the ability for sati to arise? Kh Sujin: Understanding as a foundation should be sufficient to condition the arising of sati. *************** Nina. #110381 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 3:06 am Subject: My Keyboard egberdina Hi All, Whenever I use my computer, and I look downwards towards the right, there is this logo that says Microsoft. I fully understand that what is seen is only different colours and brightness in context. That understanding doesn't alter me seeing Microsoft. I was sent to school when I lacked the strength to resist. For 12 years this went on. I was taught that certain configurations of certain colours and brightness had certain meanings. Even after I left school, and practiced non-association for decades, I have been unable to separate learnt meanings from observations associated with them. I now doubt that I will ever be able to see a certain configuration of black and grey without seeing Microsoft. I also doubt that it is possible for me to live in a world that isn't already filled with meaning. Having said that, I see no self anywhere. But that, obviously, does nothing to alter there being a passing parade of phenomena invested with meaning. Cheers Herman #110382 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 4:20 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for your replies. > Alex: In any case, a proper effort must be made to flow against the streams of defilements. If one takes it easy and doesn't apply right effort, then one will drift along the path of least resistence (for the kilesas). pt: Sure, but that's not disputed at all. The argument seems to be regarding differentiating between a/kusala. So, for your example, between what's wrong effort and what's right effort. > Alex: See the suttas. Right effort has 4 parts. It can and DOES coexist with other akusala qualities. See its 2nd part. > > Generate desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of > > 2)abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen pt: Hm, not sure what you're saying above - right effort can arise together with aksuala cittas? You probably remember that the other interpretation of this that's often mentioned here on dsg is that abandoning of akusala (like in the 2nd part of the sutta you quote) happens by the arising of kusala. Is that any different from your understanding? > Alex: Either one "generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen[etc]" > > Or one indulges in wrong effort with its consequences. Letting unwholesome states be unopposed IS WRONG EFFORT. pt: I think that's a bit of a strawman. Nobody yet suggested that we should indulge in akusala. What was suggested is that aksuala is abandoned by the arising kusala. So, I'm just trying to understand your position, are you saying that: 1. right effort arises together with akusala cittas? 2. akusala is abandoned by engaging in more akusala? 3. akusala is abandoned by engaging in something in between kusala and aksuala? 4. akusala is abandoned by the arising of kusala? Best wishes pt #110383 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? egberdina Hey pt, In the near future, it seems you are going to be mediating / moderating some discussions that I will be partaking in. Since I have rejoined dsg, I have only read you writing about a/kusala. It seems you know something about that. It will help avoid unnecessary, idle chatter at our meeting if you could reply to the following: Is there any understanding of a/kusala that does not amount to being lost in thought? If so, what understanding of a/kusala relates to what was fleetingly present (read already past)? Cheers Herman On 1 October 2010 21:20, ptaus1 wrote: > > > > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for your replies. > > > Alex: In any case, a proper effort must be made to flow against the > streams of defilements. If one takes it easy and doesn't apply right effort, > then one will drift along the path of least resistence (for the kilesas). > > pt: Sure, but that's not disputed at all. The argument seems to be > regarding differentiating between a/kusala. So, for your example, between > what's wrong effort and what's right effort. > > > Alex: See the suttas. Right effort has 4 parts. It can and DOES coexist > with other akusala qualities. See its 2nd part. > > > > > Generate desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the sake of > > > > 2)abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen > > pt: Hm, not sure what you're saying above - right effort can arise together > with aksuala cittas? You probably remember that the other interpretation of > this that's often mentioned here on dsg is that abandoning of akusala (like > in the 2nd part of the sutta you quote) happens by the arising of kusala. Is > that any different from your understanding? > > > Alex: Either one "generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen[etc]" > > > > > Or one indulges in wrong effort with its consequences. Letting > unwholesome states be unopposed IS WRONG EFFORT. > > pt: I think that's a bit of a strawman. Nobody yet suggested that we should > indulge in akusala. What was suggested is that aksuala is abandoned by the > arising kusala. So, I'm just trying to understand your position, are you > saying that: > > 1. right effort arises together with akusala cittas? > 2. akusala is abandoned by engaging in more akusala? > 3. akusala is abandoned by engaging in something in between kusala and > aksuala? > 4. akusala is abandoned by the arising of kusala? > > Best wishes > pt > > > #110384 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 5:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Herman, > H: In the near future, it seems you are going to be mediating / moderating some > discussions that I will be partaking in. pt: I think RobE was joking there. You and KenH are far older than me, so I basically expect you guys to be far wiser than me and therefore self-moderate. > H: Is there any understanding of a/kusala that does not amount to being lost in > thought? pt: If I understand what you're asking, that would be panna cetasika. > H: If so, what understanding of a/kusala relates to what was > fleetingly present (read already past)? pt: If I understand what you're asking, I think it would depend on the kind of panna arising. So, if we're talking about panna of right intellectual understanding, that would be understanding the present experience in light of anatta - e.g. understanding the present effort in light of anatta, rather than taking it to be an effort that I'm making right now. Best wishes pt #110385 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Let's be honest... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil) - In a message dated 10/1/2010 12:54:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Phil, ----------- <. . .> Ph: > Is there more likely to be awareness of the arising and falling away of mental factors, of the mutability of the mind, fleet moments, the first slight stirrings of defilements at the arising level, when one is a) sitting in a quiet room with one's eyes shut and attention on the breath, ----------- If satipatthana was about "catching" dhammas then a quiet spot and a concentrated mind would be ideal. (Just like when catching fish.) But satipatthana is not about catching anything. ---------------------------------------------- That's true, the practice involved with the foundations of mindfulness has nothing to do with catching anything. There is nothing catchable/graspable. However, the practice does have to do with paying attention - not getting lost in thought (including planning) or in sloth & torpor. And that practice when supported by a knowledge of the teachings and a practice of sila (including the 4 right endeavors), can lead to wisdom. ------------------------------------------- ----------------- Ph: > or b) when moving around the house with attention on this on that, or walking down a city street with attention on this and that. ----------------- When you are moving around the house, what realities are there to be known? There are namas and rupas, aren't there? So the realities to be known are exactly the same as when you are sitting quietly. --------------------------------------------- It can be, provided attention is both easy and keen. ------------------------------------------- And how do those namas and rupas become known? Is it by some cunning, dhamma-catching technique? Or do they become known when you have heard, and un derstood, the Buddha's teaching? ---------------------------------------------- See what I wrote above. Knowing *about* the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada is certainly important and good, knowing *about* sila and training the mind is better, and applying the teachings is the essential next step. --------------------------------------------- The right answer is the second one of course. ------------------------------------------- There is no "of course" about it. This is your opinion, period. (As is my opinion just that - an opinion.) ------------------------------------------ And the same applies to the strength (or clarity) of your "knowing". Most people will tell you it depends on some kind of satipatthana-strengthening technique. But they are wrong. It depends on how much satipatthana there has been in the past. -------------------------------------------- LOLOL! First of all, satipatthana is neither mindfulness nor wisdom, but is a foundation of (or subject area for) mindfulness. The word is being misused. Secondly, wholesome traits arise and are strengthened due to continual practice. To say that condition S is cultivated by past S, and that by further past S, etc, etc, is to say practically nothing at all. The idea that S>S>S>S>S>S>... is a complete explanation is just plain silly. -------------------------------------------- ------------------------ Ph: > Can anyone honestly claim that the answer is not a)? I mean really and honestly. And if it is agreed that the answer is a), does it matter if moments of akusala or a lot of akusala or nothing but akusala is inolved in the sitting? I'm more interested in the first question, really. And let's remember, truthfulness is one of the perfections. ------------------------ Hand on heart, Phil, the answer is not a. ------------------------------------------------------- The answer is c), the entire path of practice involving sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na taught by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110386 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Robert & Herman & all - In a message dated 10/1/2010 1:14:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: You just gave me an idea. Maybe sometime we can all get onto google video and videoconference with other dsg folk. All free, and I understand it's not too hard to set up. There's a talk version too if someone doesn't have a webcam. How about a dsg computer video conference? ============================= Sounds great!! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110387 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? egberdina Thanks for your reply, pt On 1 October 2010 22:15, ptaus1 wrote: > > > > > Hi Herman, > > > H: In the near future, it seems you are going to be mediating / > moderating some > > > discussions that I will be partaking in. > > pt: I think RobE was joking there. You and KenH are far older than me, so I > basically expect you guys to be far wiser than me and therefore > self-moderate. > > > H: Is there any understanding of a/kusala that does not amount to being > lost in > > thought? > > pt: If I understand what you're asking, that would be panna cetasika. > > > H: If so, what understanding of a/kusala relates to what was > > > fleetingly present (read already past)? > > pt: If I understand what you're asking, I think it would depend on the kind > of panna arising. So, if we're talking about panna of right intellectual > understanding, that would be understanding the present experience in light > of anatta - e.g. understanding the present effort in light of anatta, rather > than taking it to be an effort that I'm making right now. > > You seem to be divorcing a/kusala from future result, a/kusala is a characteristic of the present moment. Have I got that right? Cheers Herman Best wishes > pt > > > #110388 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 10/1/2010 2:51:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > I must have been napping! WHAT gathering on the 9th? Where? > > On the 9th of October there will be an informal dhamma discussion at Jon and Sarah's pad in Manly. As luck would have it, Vicki and I were already planning to have lunch with a friend in Manly on that very day. So there you have it :-) ------------------------------------------------ Ahh, I see. :-) Have a wonderful time!! [I hope it is phenomenal!! LOL!] ------------------------------------------------ Cheers Herman ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110389 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 5:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Herman, > H: You seem to be divorcing a/kusala from future result, a/kusala is a > characteristic of the present moment. Have I got that right? pt: Yes, I think it might be said that way. In abhidhamma terms - current citta can be a/kusala (not considering kiriya and vipaka here), and the same applies to cetasikas that arise with it. E.g. right/wrong effort. So, if there's understanding (panna) presently, which is a kusala cetasika, then effort which arises with the same citta is kusala/right, as well. So then, the practical questions is - present understanding of what? I think understanding that whatever is the object at that moment - as not being self. The object can be whatever presents itself now - effort, concentration, thinking, concept, etc. So, if there's detachment from what presents itself now, then there's no greed/hate (attachment) to the object now. Best wishes pt #110390 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: memories of the late Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Azita) - In a message dated 10/1/2010 4:12:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Azita, thank you. Op 27-sep-2010, om 13:16 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > "Desire for results is real, it can be helpful BUT this field can > also be very dangerous - it depends on the desire and why it is > desiring". I guess this may mean chandha? ------- N: Kusala chandha. Chandha may be akusala or kusala. Difficult to know the difference. --------------------------------------------- Difficult, I think, because constantly changing: K, AK, K, AK, AK, K, K, K, AK, ..., and we miss the fine variation but view an entire sequence/stream as a single thing and judge it as wholesome or unwholesome by some means or other - often by what is preponderant, and often based on consequence. ---------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110391 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? egberdina Hi pt, On 1 October 2010 22:58, ptaus1 wrote: > > > > > Hi Herman, > > > H: You seem to be divorcing a/kusala from future result, a/kusala is a > > > characteristic of the present moment. Have I got that right? > > pt: Yes, I think it might be said that way. In abhidhamma terms - current > citta can be a/kusala (not considering kiriya and vipaka here), and the same > applies to cetasikas that arise with it. E.g. right/wrong effort. So, if > there's understanding (panna) presently, which is a kusala cetasika, then > effort which arises with the same citta is kusala/right, as well. > > So then, the practical questions is - present understanding of what? I > think understanding that whatever is the object at that moment - as not > being self. The object can be whatever presents itself now - effort, > concentration, thinking, concept, etc. So, if there's detachment from what > presents itself now, then there's no greed/hate (attachment) to the object > now. > > If I understand you correctly blue, pain, A 440Hz or the like can have different immediate characteristics, either kusala or akusala. For example, there is kusala blue, which is different from akusala blue. Have I understood you correctly? Cheers Herman > Best wishes > pt > > > #110392 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 6:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Herman, > H: If I understand you correctly blue, pain, A 440Hz or the like can have > different immediate characteristics, either kusala or akusala. For example, > there is kusala blue, which is different from akusala blue. Have I > understood you correctly? pt: I think color, pain, sound, etc would be actually the objects of citta, so not really a/kusala, unless we consider them in terms of vipaka, which wasn't really the focus of discussion. Citta would be classed as a/kusala depending on the roots that it arises with - if there's ignorance, greed or hate, these three are classed as akusala cetasikas, and likewise the citta. If the roots are non-ignorance, non-hate and non-greed, then the citta is kusala. Best wishes pt #110393 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I?/ Sarah a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ari (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 9/30/2010 11:13:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > whinney@... writes: > > I'm still confused. Who is doing the thinking? Where does the thinking > come from? > =============================== > Here is perhaps a way of thinking about this, Ari: > I look out the window and see that "it is raining." What is the "it" > that is raining? ;-) I see your point, but I would then say it comes from the clouds which are formed in various ways in different areas of the world. That's actually a silly question, right? There is no > thing that is doing an action called "raining." OK. There is just the event, the > process. It's a bit like a farmer telling a city guy that a seed has the > power to sprout, and the city guy asking where in the seed the power can be > found, on the surface or the interior. The farmer, of course, would just > look at him as if he were crazy. The farmer didn't mean that there is some > "sprouting-power" thing to be found anywhere in the seed. But it does have a genetic code to grow. Likewise, when I say > "I'm thinking," there is actually no thing called "I" or "the thinker," an > agent that is carrying out an action called "thinking." There is just the > event - the process of thinking. No doer of the deed. OK. I can conceptualize that. You know the other thing I was "thinking" is how in Mindfulness Way Through Depression simply reminds us that something is "just" thinking. So, when I get depressed, and think it's going to go on forever, I think the thought "this is going to go on forever" is just a thought, and put into that perspective is far less distressing than accepting the thought as reality. Pema Chodren goes over this same concept as well. > Now, on the other hand, one can say that the thinking, feeling, > touching, hearing, etc, etc that is "mine" is different from that which is > "yours." Right. Now what is that about? The answer to that, as far as I can understand, > is that there is legitimate distinguishing (though not strict separating) > that can be made between streams of experience, the elements of each stream, > due to kamma and memory, being interrelated. Right. I think there would be inward aspects and outward aspects. It is then a convention to > think of this aggregate of interrelated mental and physical phenomena as a > unity, an entity. YES! That's my problem in thinking here! The thinking that is part of one stream, conditioned,as it > is most directly by the other elements of that stream, identifies all the > elements as forming a being called "me". The same is the case within every > stream. But there is no "self," no lasting core of identity, that is part of > or underlies any psycho-physical aggregate. Uh, OK. What is there, then? And does Mindfulness and Mahayana have a different answer? The seeming of a self is a > matter of particular thinking arising as one process among the various > interconnected processes of a stream. OK. If a wave in the ocean were sentient, "it" > would think in terms of "my self," imagining "itself" to be a one > wave-entity living together with a host of other separate, wave-entities. > > With metta, > Howard OK, thank you Howard. I think my main problem is that I study with a Swami who is Advaita Vedanta and in that system, there is Atman, and that is the core. However, when I meditate, I meditate mostly in Buddhist style, because this Swami is getting elderly, does not teach any more and so I switched over to the nearest cousin. Anyway, I do have to say that at the level I am at, the actual Mindfulness meditation it is working out wonderfully, but I think I am having trouble philisophically. But you know what? I'm too philosophical, almost everyone thinks that I think too much, and why don't I just do my meditation and see where it goes? Best, Ari #110394 From: Herman Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? egberdina Hi pt, On 1 October 2010 23:31, ptaus1 wrote: > > > Hi Herman, > > > H: If I understand you correctly blue, pain, A 440Hz or the like can have > > > different immediate characteristics, either kusala or akusala. For > example, > > there is kusala blue, which is different from akusala blue. Have I > > understood you correctly? > > pt: I think color, pain, sound, etc would be actually the objects of citta, > so not really a/kusala, unless we consider them in terms of vipaka, which > wasn't really the focus of discussion. > > Citta would be classed as a/kusala depending on the roots that it arises > with - if there's ignorance, greed or hate, these three are classed as > akusala cetasikas, and likewise the citta. If the roots are non-ignorance, > non-hate and non-greed, then the citta is kusala. > > Yes, but we are now talking about "classed". Classifying is an act, an act other than seeing, hearing, feeling etc. My question was whether this classifying was being lost in thought, or not. I know that somewhere Buddhaghosa took his a/kusala lead from what the average accountant/artisan/lawyer meant by it. Hardly present moment stuff. Cheers Herman #110395 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 6:40 am Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus > Hi Ari > > Still here... > > There is a very important sutta about the way we consume objects in an intoxicated way, not so much about the convnetional meaning of consuming in the marketplace, but much more momentary, and it will be timely for you, because it is about a deer hunter and that season is coming soon in America (unfortunately) isn't it? *Yup. And the way the deer are hunted is not hunting. The neighbors have stands, up in the trees to sit and wait for the deer to come by. Other neighbors feed the deer corn much as you would feed the birds. We don't feed corn because we don't want to attract the deer to our woods, so they won't be killed. *The neighbors are trying to save on groceries, and one deer is a lot of meat. It is also legal to shoot on our property (and theirs). Yes, that's how far out in the sticks that we live! *One neighbor eats gray squirrels but this is not someone from Deliverance, if you look up gray squirrels they are the #1 invasive species in the world, and some people kill them, and consume them as "ethical consumption". > > But the sutta is not available online so I will have to summarize it myself, but not today, maybe tomorrow. Thanks again. > > Metta, > > Phil I did print up the last one you recommended, but have not read it yet. Best, Ari #110396 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 6:43 am Subject: Re: Let's be honest.../Phil a_true_lotus Dear Phil, I have always thought it weird how many people don't meditate at all on some of the Buddhist lists I've been on. It's kind of weird. I think you can be mindful of your day, in a kind of "formless meditation" but I don't think that this replaces meditation. IMHO, as a person who knows nothing! :-) Best, Ari --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I don't think I'm going to become one of the meditation defenders here, but my post yesterday has me thinking. > > Is there more likely to be awareness of the arising and falling away of mental factors, of the mutability of the mind, fleet moments, the first slight stirrings of defilements at the arising level, when one is a) sitting in a quiet room with one's eyes shut and attention on the breath, or b) when moving around the house with attention on this on that, or walking down a city street with attention on this and that. > > Can anyone honestly claim that the answer is not a)? I mean really and honestly. And if it is agreed that the answer is a), does it matter if moments of akusala or a lot of akusala or nothing but akusala is inolved in the sitting? > > I'm more interested in the first question, really. And let's remember, truthfulness is one of the perfections. > > Metta, > > Phil > #110397 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 6:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Herman, > H: Yes, but we are now talking about "classed". Classifying is an act, an act > other than seeing, hearing, feeling etc. My question was whether this > classifying was being lost in thought, or not. I know that somewhere > Buddhaghosa took his a/kusala lead from what the average > accountant/artisan/lawyer meant by it. Hardly present moment stuff. Ah, I see what you were trying to ask. From memory, that issue about the average accountant, etc, refers to classifying vipaka as kusala or akusala, which is sort of why I didn't want to go into the whole vipka argument. On the other hand what I was trying to say is that regardless what the present object is - be it a sense-object (thanks to this or that kind of vipaka) like color, sound, etc, or a mind-door object like a dhamma (effort, concetration, etc) or a concept - the citta that has one of these as the object will still arise with either kusala or akusala cetasikas. If these cetasikas are aksuala (ignorance, greed, etc), then that would mean that there's attachemtn to that particular object as "me, myself, mine". If however, the cetasikas arising are panna, alobha and adosa, then there's no attachment to the object (no attachment is the same as detachment). So finally, there's detachemtn from the object because panna understands the anatta aspect of it - it's not "me, myself, mine" anymore. Best wishes pt #110398 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: memories of the late Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-okt-2010, om 14:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Difficult, I think, because constantly changing: K, AK, K, AK, AK, K, > K, K, AK, ..., and we miss the fine variation but view an entire > sequence/stream as a single thing... ------- N: Well said. Yes, we take it for a whole, more like a concept we conceive of chandha. It seems to last for a while, whereas in reality there are many different moments. It is only pa~n~naa developed in vipassanaa that can know realities more precisely. But intellectual understanding surely helps, is a condition for direct awareness and understanding later on, we do not know when. 'We' cannot do anything. Discussion helps. -------- Nina. #110399 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? nilovg Hi pt and Herman, Op 1-okt-2010, om 13:51 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > Is there any understanding of a/kusala that does not amount to > being lost in > thought? If so, what understanding of a/kusala relates to what was > fleetingly present (read already past)? ------ N: That will be an interesting meeting. Here comes the subject of nimitta, the sign of something that has just fallen away. ----- Nina.