#112600 From: "philip" Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:30 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > You and I are on the same wavelength on many issues. > I was thinking it would be very nice if you were there at the breakfast. Ph: I wish I had been. Because of my parents very old age any trips I make abroad must be to Canada, but someday I hope we can meet in Bangkok. > The effect of ageing and illness was felt even by the Buddha himself. In Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, on his way to Kusinaara, the Lord, who was very strong when younger, had to take a rest because he was tired. Ph: What a gentle lovely reminder, I had never seen it before, thank you Han. Metta, Phil #112601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breakfast discussion with Han (1) nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much for your report and extra additions about what people asked and the Sayadaw's sayings which I always find very interesting. Op 16-dec-2010, om 15:14 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Sarah wrote:The text then elaborates on the last category and > 'people' and 'persons' are used throughout. However, I think all > such terms and language have to be read and understood in the light > of categories 1) -5) and the rest of the Abhidhamma about > paramattha dhammas. > > For example, under the first grouping of Human Types by One, we > read about different people, such as different kinds of ariyans, > but really these refer to cittas and cetasikas. -------- N: That is the way I see it. I could add something I wrote about this book in my Abhidhamma Series: < This book deals with the cittas and the different accumulated tendencies of individuals. Some people are easily inclined to anger, whereas others are full of mettaa. We read about an angry person: ‘What sort of person is angry? What then is anger? That which is anger, and the state of being angry, hatred, hating, hatefulness, malice, the act of being malicious, maliciousness, hostility, enmity, rudeness, abruptness, resentment of heart-this is called anger. He who has not got rid of this anger is said to be an angry person.’ In this definition we read about the ‘state of being angry’, and this teaches us that anger is not a person, that it is a dhamma which is conditioned. We think of an angry person, but anger, after it has arisen, is gone completely, it does not last The contents of this book is the evil and good qualities of individuals, but actually these are cetasikas, mental factors arising because of conditions. Thus, we are constantly reminded that these are not persons, they are impermanent and not self....> -------- Nina. #112602 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breakfast discussion with Han (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Just briefly... --- On Thu, 16/12/10, han tun wrote: >I am amazed that you could write the Notes so quickly. ... S: A bit too quickly - apologies for the typos and calling you Htoo and one point!! ... >Second, I apologize for the last remark made by my grandson. He is stubborn and he has his own way of thinking things. That was why I do not have much discussion with him. ... S: :-) No problem at all - we all understand. Discussing different ideas of the Dhamma can be very sensitive as we all know well. It's not like discussing the weather or the food! He may reflect more later as we all need to do. We were concerned about his back problems and concerned he must have been in some discomfort. Jon's back cushion name is "isokinetics, inc." I think we ordered it through Amazon. Pls thank Thet Oo again for his assistance and best wishes for his Dhamma interest. .. >Physically, I feel much stronger than before the gall bladder surgery. But my family is still treating me like a baby. They will not allow me to go alone for long distances. ... S: Understandable. I'm going to ask Sukin to pick you up next time and join the breakfast with us. (Hi Sukin, looking forward to seeing you and other friends at the Foundation tomorrow). S: Many thanks for taking up the Dhamma discussions baton so efficiently and quickly too:-) Good partner work as usual. --------------------- >The readers may give their opinion on this matter if they so desire. ... S: You mentioned in passing that sometimes you hesitate to share your thoughts or texts with us all here because you tend to receive so many emails in response. I think it's totally fine to make a comment that you won't be getting involved in discussions or arguments or just not to respond to any of the comments. No obligations for anyone:-) Looking forward to reading your further comments. Metta Sarah ======== #112603 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. on Nimitta. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 17-dec-2010, om 5:31 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I am happy to know about the nimitta. It takes the impossible task > of discerning dhammas and makes it accessible, a good building- > block. Still, touching the table and discerning "hardness" through > the nimitta is not much different from ordinary touching of the > table and experiencing conventional hardness, is it? ------- N: Very good remark of yours. The same reality of hardness appear. This can be experienced by body-consciousness and after that by akusala cittas, such as those rooted in ignorance, moha. Or, there may be kusala cittas with sati and understanding of hardness as just a dhamma, not a thing or person. Nobody can direct which cittas arise. And if we plan to experience hardness with sati and understanding it is doomed to failure. By listening to the Dhamma and deeply considering what is heard or studied, there are conditions for the arising of sati that is mindful of a characteristic without thinking of it, unexpectantly, unplanned, unforeseen. No worry about how can sati be conditioned. The reality that appears does not change, but it can be experienced with more understanding of it as just a dhamma. ------- Nina. #112604 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breakfast discussion with Han (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, S: A bit too quickly - apologies for the typos and calling you Htoo and one point!! Han: No problem, Sarah. I once typed your name as "Sally":>) ---------- S: :-) No problem at all - we all understand. Discussing different ideas of the Dhamma can be very sensitive as we all know well. It's not like discussing the weather or the food! He may reflect more later as we all need to do. We were concerned about his back problems and concerned he must have been in some discomfort. Jon's back cushion name is "isokinetics, inc." I think we ordered it through Amazon. Pls thank Thet Oo again for his assistance and best wishes for his Dhamma interest. Han: He has so many worries. The condition of his back that gives him pain throughout the day is the most serious worry for him. He is also worried about his future and his security and so on. But I thank you for your kind understanding. I have noted the name of the cushion. I will continue to take up your points. Thank you very much once again. With metta and respect, Han p.s. Please do not give Sukin the trouble of picking me up. He stays far away from me. I will manage somehow. #112605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nina van Gorkom / What type of philosophy would we say.... nilovg Reverend Triple, Op 16-dec-2010, om 18:27 heeft revtriple het volgende geschreven: > If it is neither than it would be both no? Just how would it be > neither/ both? ------ N: The Buddha spoke about realities such as seeing, colour, thinking about what is seen, anger, generosity. All these phenomena are real and they are experienced in daily life. There can only be one moment of consciousness, citta, at a time, such as seeing which experiences colour. Seeing is a mental reality, colour is a physical reality. When there is thinking of what is seen, it is already another moment of citta. It seems that seeing and thinking occur at the same time, but there can only be one experience at a time. Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly, succeeding one another. That is why it seems that there can be more experiences at the same time. There is one citta at a time experiencing one object and it falls away immediately. Cittas experience objects through the senses and through the mind. When citta that sees arises there is only the world of visible object, when the citta that hears arises there is only the world of sound. Our life is actually one moment of citta experiencing one object and then gone. We may be thinking about subjectivism and objectivism, but what is real at that moment? Thinking is real, it is a citta, but it falls away immediately. Subject and object are mere terms, they are not realities. They are not real in the same way as seeing, hearing or anger. They are concepts, there may be thinking of many kinds of stories and concepts. When we try to understand what reality is we lose interest in what are stories but not realities. Perhaps we stop wondering about subject and object. These are not the essence contained in the Buddha's teachings. More important: understanding what is real at this moment. -------- Nina. #112606 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How can killiing or stealing not be a conventional deed? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 12/16/2010 11:20:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > J: Every act of killing must involve some level of akusala. The conventional act of killing could never be described as a kusala act. Well in that case, you seem to be agreeing with me that the act itself has this akusala quality, and that it is not a matter of akusala being 100% a mental factor. ================================== In these discussions, as you both probably realize, I generally tend to side with Robert. On this point, however, I understand Jon to be saying that there is no act of killing that does not involve a mental state, fleeting as it might be, that is to some degree unwholesome, subliminally if not at the surface. I suspect that is true. And, after all, is not the moral quality of an action determined by the intention? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112607 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: Terminology Question Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural deci... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/17/2010 3:18:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: We should not forget that there is a great diversity of types of conditions and that the conditional forces operate in various ways. ========================== Thank you, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112608 From: "maitreyi" Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:00 pm Subject: Vimutti Magga by Arhant Upatossa maitreyi144 Dear All Here is the link for the book "Vimutti Magga by Arhant Upatossa " http://www.archive.org/details/ArahantUpatossa-Vimuttimagga-PathOfFreedom.pdf Please let me know if you have difficulty indownloading the book. Thanks. #112609 From: "colette" Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:14 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ksheri3 Hi boys, Wasn't that easy? It took a little while but eventually you finally came to the conclusion that you, each, individually, had to support your argument and so you had to become the polarizations that I am constantly trying to avoid. No matter how much I try to ignore you hoodlums in your ugly slums living by devotion to your sick & pathetic criminal behaviors, you two will not leave me alone to follow the MIDDLE PATH. In cases like this, however, you both have the ability to "reflect" and view your sick pathetic behaviors OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF since I do not cognize that either of you two have a self worthy of identification. Don't get cocky, though, just because I have removed your NAMA from your RUPA, your mind from your body. Don't think that you can commit any crime you desire to commit while I afford this consciousness to you. What was Jimi Hendrix singing about "sandcastles" that wash away into the sea? Is it anything like his song "ROOM FULL OF MIRRORS"? is that song anything like the Bruce Lee movie "Enter The Dragon" that relies on the room full of mirrors to end the movie? good to speak with you boys again, especially before the hectic and heretic holiday season where I get to dress up in costumes, uniforms, and play different types of rolls. toodles, colette #112610 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:33 pm Subject: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) hantun1 Dear Sarah and All, Discussion points (continuation) 3. Some discussion on anatta. Always controversial. A new theory to me - "partial kamma". Perhaps you'd elaborate! I think you said we cannot control outcomes, but can control activities:-)) Anatta-less seeing and hearing. We were mostly in agreement, but Thet Oo has his own very distinct theories and I appreciated that he questions anything we say. I think he and you listen to very different Sayadaws:-) He also rejects the Abhidhamma as not providing the taste of the pudding, so we end up with very different understandings of some basics, such as the meaning of rupa or khandha. Everyone can follow what makes sense. [Han] I believe in Kamma and its effects. What I said was I cannot control the outcome of my activities (anatta), but I can and I should control my activities. That means I accept the Anatta doctrine "partially". For example, you used to say that one cannot make the sati to arise at will, but I believe one can. But one cannot predict or control the outcome or what will happen in the future. It is because we cannot know what kusla or akusal kamma we had accumulated in the past. I agree with you that what we see or hear is the effect of our past kamma. They are kamma vipaaka. When we paid homage to our Elders, they used to bless us with the following wish: "May you never see or hear the unpleasant things!" That means we cannot predict what we will see or hear, and our Elders knew that they are kamma vipaaka. I did not hear the full account of what my grandson said on this issue, because you and I were discussing while he and Jon were discussing at the same time. There must be some misunderstanding if my grandson said he rejected the Abhidhamma. On the taxi, on our way to your hotel, he said that one cannot attain the final liberation with sutta only and one must know the Abhidhamma for attaining magga and phala ~naa.nas. I even told him he could not say like that, because the Mahasatipatthana sutta, for example, is complete in itself for the path to liberation. -------------------- 4. Vipassana and samatha. You mentioned that you "can do" vipassana anytime, but that for samatha, it is "on the cushion", clearing the mind, without panna, emptying "the trash bin" as we say on our computers. You mentioned anapanasati as used for samatha and vipassana. In samatha, you mentioned peace, removing stray thoughts at the end of breath, modifying the breath so that there's "no gap". I understood what you were saying. We had some discussion about panna and samatha and here your grandson, Thet Oo, and I were in agreement - panna in samatha bhavana as being essential. As you mentioned, no need to refer to bhavana then or any labels. Clearing the mind of thoughts, no need to call it anything. I must say, it's always amicable when you and we disagree on anything. [Han] I was telling you how I do my meditation. It went on like this: [In the books it says that I must not modify the breathing. Sometimes, I deliberately modify it. I came to notice that the stray thoughts enter my mind during the gap between the end of out-breath and the beginning of in-breath. I ask myself if I can obliterate that gap what would happen? So I continue the out-breath slowly and continuously, until both the lungs are empty. Then I breathe in. In that way there is no gap, and I found that no stray thoughts enter my mind at that moment. In other words, I am momentarily emptying my mind of any thoughts (like emptying "the trash bin" as we say on our computers). So I do like that for as long as possible. But after some time, the concentration fails, and I have to start all over again. For a few moments that I succeed, I have the most profound peace of mind.] I said that at that time, I was concentrating only on the breath without any pa~n~naa. For pa~n~naa and vipassanaa I do off-cushion, reflecting on the three characteristics, but mainly on the anicca, on whatever appears in my mind. You and my grandson said that while reflecting on the breath there must be pa~n~naa, even it is applied for samatha only; if not, it is not "bhaavanaa". I said I did not care about the labels. If it is not bhaavanaa, okay, just say that it is for concentration or whatever you want to call it. I added that I am doing all these things without a personal teacher. In a way, it is good for me that I do not have a personal teacher. Otherwise, with my stubborn and rebellious nature, if my teacher says one thing and if I do another thing it will not be good. In the army, if I disobey my superior, it is insubordination and I may be court-marshaled. Here, even if my teacher forgives me for my insubordination, I will have the guilty conscious in my mind, which is not good. For the same reason, i.e., with my stubborn and rebellious nature, when I write something about what I am doing it is the descriptive account and not a prescriptive account (if I may borrow the words from Phil). So please do not say that I am wrong and try to correct me. It will be the waste of time, because I will not change my position whether it is right or wrong. To be continued. With metta and respect, Han #112611 From: "philip" Date: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) philofillet Good morning, Han (and all) > [Han] I believe in Kamma and its effects. What I said was I cannot control the outcome of my activities (anatta), but I can and I should control my activities. That means I accept the Anatta doctrine "partially". For example, you used to say that one cannot make the sati to arise at will, but I believe one can. But one cannot predict or control the outcome or what will happen in the future. It is because we cannot know what kusla or akusal kamma we had accumulated in the past. Ph: Interesting. May I propose that this partial belief in anatta can be refined? I mean, we know that the Buddha taught anatta of all conditioned phenomena, that is indisputable. But maybe where we disagree with Sarah and others is this insistence on seeking to immediately appreciate and perceive anatta. So when they reject meditation based on their belief that it is not done with proper understanding of anatta, they are getting ahead of themselves. We can certainly directly perceive anatta in the uncontrollability of the way things turn out, but who can truly say that they don't have the illusion/delusion of control over things? But truly, technically speaking, there is no control. Let's say that upon opening our eyes in the morning, we vow "today I will have mindfulness of all activities until I close my eyes at night", and do so. Amazing. But does it disprove anatta? I don't think so, because all the dhammas that are involved in that day full of perfect mindfulness are still anatta, they are arising due to conditions, perhaps conditioned by our strong chanda that is rooted in the idea of having perfect mindfulness. So may I propose that we don't insist on believing in perceiving anatta or having it at the center from the beginning, but we still believing in the theory of anatta from the beginning, or something like that? That our belief in controlling activities is good, and still in line with the Dhamma, but there is an illusion of control, technically speaking, because all the dhammas that are behind the behaviour etc are anatta even if we don't perceive them as such from the beginning? Metta, Phil #112612 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:51 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) hantun1 Good morning, Phil, [Ph]: Interesting. May I propose that this partial belief in anatta can be refined? I mean, we know that the Buddha taught anatta of all conditioned phenomena, that is indisputable. But maybe where we disagree with Sarah and others is this insistence on seeking to immediately appreciate and perceive anatta. So when they reject meditation based on their belief that it is not done with proper understanding of anatta, they are getting ahead of themselves. We can certainly directly perceive anatta in the uncontrollability of the way things turn out, but who can truly say that they don't have the illusion/delusion of control over things? But truly, technically speaking, there is no control. Let's say that upon opening our eyes in the morning, we vow "today I will have mindfulness of all activities until I close my eyes at night", and do so. Amazing. But does it disprove anatta? I don't think so, because all the dhammas that are involved in that day full of perfect mindfulness are still anatta, they are arising due to conditions, perhaps conditioned by our strong chanda that is rooted in the idea of having perfect mindfulness. So may I propose that we don't insist on believing in perceiving anatta or having it at the center from the beginning, but we still believing in the theory of anatta from the beginning, or something like that? That our belief in controlling activities is good, and still in line with the Dhamma, but there is an illusion of control, technically speaking, because all the dhammas that are behind the behaviour etc are anatta even if we don't perceive them as such from the beginning? [Han] I appreciate your refining of my partial belief in anatta. I will think about it. With metta and respect, Han #112613 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:05 am Subject: Seeing other being's helplessness! bhikkhu5 Friends: Karunã: The Great Good Helper! Karuna is feeling the pain of other beings, either partially or completely; Possible translations: 1: Pity not from above: “I am better”, but as if in the other being’s shoes… 2: Compassion is OK, but that is difficult to reach up to for many beings… 3: Fellow feeling, sympathy, empathy, understanding are all OK, but somewhat missing these essential points: A: It is an inability to see and accept other being’s suffering and distress! B: It is a deep desire to make others feel free, glad, happy and peaceful! C: It is extended to and pervaded over many beings simultaneously… The proximate cause of Karuna = pity is noticing other being’s helplessness. The immediate effect of Karuna = pity is evaporation of all evil cruelty! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <....> #112614 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:09 am Subject: Re: Introduction!!! szmicio Dear Rob E, > Would the arahat have "inclinations," such as spending the afternoon reading a commentary, or would he be beyond such interests? L:Yes, they have vasana, in pali behaviours or inclinations I think so. This is mentioned by AS in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. I think I can look it up and quote later. Vasanas it's something like you mentioned, even though Arahat doesnt have any bad thoughts and reactions anymore(all reactions of Arahat are neither bad or good, they are without any hetu, root), Arahats have their "inclinations" - vasanas. Arahants can be more inclined to do this more than that. And also when AS becomes Arahat she can still teaches about a reading Dhamma listing to it, while other Arahats like Acharn Chahn can be more on meditating etc.. Those vasanas, for me are more like 'the old trash' that is out of control. This is always good remider that our different bevoiours are only vasanas. Only Buddha, the Arahat, doesnt have vasanas, so that's why Buddha-Dhamma is so perfect. This is discovered by the perfect guy with no inclinations anymore, while other Theras' still have it. That's how I used to consider that matter. Best wishes Lukas #112615 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:10 pm Subject: Nimitta szmicio Dear friends, This short reminder is by Bhante Samahita: L: Protect the sign! Protect the nimitta. This reminds me about the objects. Without nimitta there no chance to concentrate. No chance to practise and develop all kinds of kusalas. Nothing by strenght, cause nimitta is always there. Hearing on nimitta reminded me about the importance of Dhamma. That it is important to give a chance to kusala also, by cultivating the objects. Remember the sign. Remember Nimitta. I'd like to be informed more on Nimitta, how this is disctincted in the Texts? Best wishes Lukas #112616 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:42 pm Subject: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah and All, 5. Discussions with Thet Oo on paramathta dhamma- existence, "everything is Dhamma", but what is "everything"? You've learnt to keep quiet and not try to argue with him. Some discussion on paramattha and sammutti sacca, but no agreements. I kept trying to discuss the present moment and dhammas such as seeing and thinking now, but he wouldn't agree that there is only the present dhamma or that there were any of the realities I mentioned:-). I have a nephew who has an interest in Buddhism but who also disagrees with almost everything we say on the subject! Makes DSG discussions seem easy:-) [Han] Yes, I have learnt to keep quiet and not try to argue not only with my grandson, but also with anyone when it comes to the difference of opinion. I opened my mouth this much only with you. Otherwise, I keep my mouth shut or cut short the discussion. Although I did not hear all what he said (because I was discussing with you at the same time), I could make out he was disagreeing with almost everything what Jon and you said. It was unfortunate. I wanted him to learn something from you. But such is life! Or, is it anatta? -------------------- 6. We discussed pain and how when it's extreme there may not be any reflection or understanding of the Dhamma at all. This moment is precious because there can be some understanding now. The Kurus lived in pleasant conditions - just one condition that may have an effect. [Han] When I had very severe pain, when I woke up after the gall bladder surgery, I could not think of any Dhamma, except my intense pain and how to reduce that pain. But when the pain was moderately severe, as in the case of my abdominal pains due to paralysis of small intestines (which I suffered from 1996 to 2000), I could do vedanaanupassanaa on the pain itself. At the time of my death if I have severe pain I will not be able to reflect on any Dhamma. Therefore, I am now doing meritorious deeds while I can, with the hope of accumulating aacinna kamma (habitual kamma), which may or may not be able to help me at that crucial moment. ------------------- 7. Vipassana in daily life - you mentioned that if you meditate by following a particular technique, there will be more evil thoughts, so better spend the time reading a book, developing understanding in daily life. Studying Dhamma, have a chop ready! Joke - in Burmese, the same word 'dhamma' is used for a chop. Hope I got that right! [I always laugh a lot with Han. We understand each other so well.] [Han] When I started doing breath meditation "on-cushion" in a quiet place in the house, I found that more evil thoughts entered my mind than when I was not meditating. It was not the fault of the technique, but my fault. But whatever the case may be, I did not benefit from it. So now, I do samatha meditation only "on-cushion" as I had described before, to momentarily empty my mind of the thoughts, both unwholesome and wholesome. I do vipassanaa meditation "off-cushion" any time during the day. And I supplement my meritorious deeds with the reading of Dhamma books, listening to the Dhamma tapes, and the reflection on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with prayer beads. While I am reading the Dhamma books, or listening to the Dhamma tapes, or reflecting on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with prayer beads, I find that the evil thoughts do not enter my mind. It is not that my samaadhi gets strong during that period, but rather, the mental objects generated by reading, listening, and the prayer beads, are strong enough to ward off other thoughts, including the evil thoughts. So in that way I could get some solid hours of evil-thoughts-free moments. As regards, the second part of what you had written above, I was talking about my experience in Pre-War Burma (not the present Burma). The big sword that we used was written in Burmese as "dhaama" but pronounced it as "dhama". When we speak quickly the Dhamma and "dhama" have the same sound. In those days the Dhamma discussions sometimes could end up with fist-fights. There was the play of words, when we said, jokingly, you must have the "dhama" on your shoulder in readiness, when you discussed the Dhamma, so that you could chop up the other fellow with it if he did not agree with you:>). But between you and me, we do not need any "dhama" but just a big laugh! -------------------- 8. Thet Oo - his aim is to have more calmness, whereas for us, the aim is to develop more understanding of whatever dhamma is conditioned. If one is so concerned about calmness, one becomes very concerned about being agitated or about a lack of calm at the present moment. [Han] Yes, he wants calmness more than anything else, because he has so many worries at the moment. The pain due to severe cervical spondylosis and severe lumbar spondylosis is a constant worry for him all throughout the day during his waking hours. He also has worries about his future and his security. So naturally, he wants calmness. That may also be a reason why he was frustrated and agitated while discussing with Jon and you. ------------------- 9. Dhamma arguments and discussions - different accumulations....all anatta. It all comes back to the present moment - the clinging now, the agitation now, the seeing, hearing and other dhammas now. No other time, no other world exits. Thet Oo felt he was not "at this level yet", but it's not a matter of being at any "level", but just beginning to understand life better now. Panna has to develop... [Han] Yes, he kept on saying that he was not at the same level to understand what you said. He thought you were at the other extreme end of Anatta. Maybe different persons understand Anatta differently. Here, I want to make a general statement, not concerning my grandson or anybody else. In Burma, before the meditation retreats became popular, the advice given by our Elders on "atta" was very simple. They said one must not have too much "atta", and one must balance equally between "atta" and "para". What the Elders were saying was we might do things for ourselves (that was only natural), but we must also do things for other people as well. And we must balance between the two. Even if we could not do more for "para", we must at least do the same thing for "para" as we might do for our own "atta". In that context, "not to have too much atta, and to balance equally between atta and para" may be interpreted simply as "not to be selfish, and to be altruistic". Such simple understanding of "atta" may not lead to the deeper understanding of "anatta" as conditions, or no control, or No-Han or No-Sarah, etc. I do not know how much my grandson understands atta and anatta and the present moment. He might also be arguing for argument sake. I apologize, once again, for anything that he have said which he should not have said. This is the END. I thank you very much for taking notes. With metta and respect, Han #112617 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:13 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Robert (and Han) and all > > >>>> Wow, Han, you have had to put up with a lot in terms of the low blood pressure. The only thing I can see positive about it is that it is a good occasion for mindfulness! :-) To be cautious not to stand up too quickly or turn the head too quickly would give you an occasion for paying close attention to the full sequence of action. > > > > I have a swallowing difficulty, which makes it a little tricky for me to swallow liquids and pills. My swallowing muscles are a little discoordinated. The doctors have never been able to figure it out, but if I swallow the wrong way I start choking pretty badly, as the liquid goes into my windpipe. > > Ph: Hey, what's wrong with you guys??? Get with the program! I'm in perfect health, play squash three times a week, go swimming, running, I'm an energetic person with no difficulties sleeping, no health problems of any kinds at all! All the people around me have had colds this season already, and only *I* havent't... Don't worry on our behalf, Phil. Han and I only have these problems because of our evil deeds in the past. :-))) Now that we are experiencing only 100% kusala cittas, the results of this bad kamma will end very soon, and then we will be in perfect bliss. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112618 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:28 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) gazita2002 Hallo Han, and Sarah thanks to both of you for these interesting posts. to Han - I'm happy that you seem to have recovered from yr surgery quite well, and I do enjoy the stories from Burma. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah and All, > > 5. Discussions with Thet Oo on paramathta dhamma- existence, "everything is Dhamma", but what is "everything"? You've learnt to keep quiet and not try to argue with him. Some discussion on paramattha and sammutti sacca, but no agreements. I kept trying to discuss the present moment and dhammas such as seeing and thinking now, but he wouldn't agree that there is only the present dhamma or that there were any of the realities I mentioned:-). I have a nephew who has an interest in Buddhism but who also disagrees with almost everything we say on the subject! Makes DSG discussions seem easy:-) > > [Han] Yes, I have learnt to keep quiet and not try to argue not only with my grandson, but also with anyone when it comes to the difference of opinion. I opened my mouth this much only with you. Otherwise, I keep my mouth shut or cut short the discussion. Although I did not hear all what he said (because I was discussing with you at the same time), I could make out he was disagreeing with almost everything what Jon and you said. It was unfortunate. I wanted him to learn something from you. But such is life! Or, is it anatta? > azita: sometimes I have a dilemma about this keeping quiet. I tend very much to do as you do, not discuss with anyone when it comes to a difference of opinion. Generally can here at dsg but certainly not in a face to face situation. In my case, I think I lack confidence and conviction! get a bit tongue-tied. Then give myself a hard time by way of "well this is dhamma and if cant discuss this in a calm manner then cant discuss anything" A lot of mana I think, and definitely no wisdom at the time. patience, courage and good cheer azita #112619 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How can killiing or stealing not be conventional...? [& for K. Sujin] epsteinrob Hi Howard [and Jon] - [[and Sarah re. K. Sujin questions:]] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 12/16/2010 11:20:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > > J: Every act of killing must involve some level of akusala. The > conventional act of killing could never be described as a kusala act. > > Well in that case, you seem to be agreeing with me that the act itself has > this akusala quality, and that it is not a matter of akusala being 100% a > mental factor. > > ================================== > In these discussions, as you both probably realize, I generally tend > to side with Robert. On this point, however, I understand Jon to be saying > that there is no act of killing that does not involve a mental state, > fleeting as it might be, that is to some degree unwholesome, subliminally if not > at the surface. I suspect that is true. And, after all, is not the moral > quality of an action determined by the intention? Oh, I think what you are saying is true, but it's a dicey point in the discussion between me and Jon. Jon is saying on the one hand that it is *only* the akusala mental factor that Buddha is concerned with, and that there is *no such thing* as an akusala action or deed. I am saying that both are true - that the mental factor can be kusala or akusala, and that the physical action may also be either kusala or akusala in its own right. Jon says that akusala is *only mental,* but then he goes on to say that killing is *always* akusala. My contention is that the killing itself is akusala, because Buddha was not just concerned with the mental state, but also causing suffering to others. So he was concerned with the concrete result of the physical action, *as well as* the accompanying mental state. Although I agree that there is probably always some akusala mental state accompanying the act of killing, I am saying that none-the-less, the physical killing is also akusala in its own right, according to the Buddha. So that is the point of contention. If there is *always* an akusala mental state accompanying the act of killing, the question is whether this is only akusala because of the mental state, or whether it is doubly akusala, as I think it is, akusala on behalf of the mental state, AND akusala on behalf of the violence of the action which causes suffering to others. I think Buddha thought the latter based on what he says about killing itself. I was surprised at one time to read in a sutta that Buddha said that the monks could receive meat as food when they were begging for food, and it was okay to eat it. He said there was no negative kamma as long as the monk himself did not kill the animal. Even though he is in a sense participating in the "industry of killing," since he is partaking of the meat, and also "benefiting from the killing," as he is partaking of the fruits of the killing, there is no negative kamma because of that, because he did not do the *physical act* of killing itself. This seems to bear out my point that the physical act can be the repository of the akusala kamma, or akusala experience, not *only* the mental state. I think what Jon is supporting is a view of the universe of being only a matter of mental experience, with no reality to the physical world and physical events, which are seen as concepts in the mind. If that were the case, then only mental states would be at issue and only mental states could be akusala. Since the physical killing would only be a concept, it would not in and of itself have akusala connected to it. I think this is what Jon is driving at, and I am trying to support the view that the physical universe *was* acknowledged by Buddha, and that physical acts and deeds could thus be akusala in their own right. Sarah, if it is not too late, I would love to have the above issue brought up for K. Sujin's response. I don't know if today was the only day you will see her. If so, sorry for the delay. The question si whether we need to be concerned with the fruits of physical actions and deeds as kusala or akusala, or are mental states the only area in which kusala and akusala arise? Buddha makes many references to kusala acts to perform, and akusala deeds to avoid. Should this be taken literally, or "translated" into arising dhammas? Thanks! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #112620 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:38 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > ...No matter how much I try to ignore you hoodlums in your ugly slums living by devotion to your sick & pathetic criminal behaviors, you two will not leave me alone to follow the MIDDLE PATH. Following the middle path is up to you. Our sick criminal behaviors cannot stop you if you are devoted and concentrate on your goal. Apply yourself diligently! > In cases like this, however, you both have the ability to "reflect" and view your sick pathetic behaviors OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF since I do not cognize that either of you two have a self worthy of identification. No self is worthy of identification according to the Buddha. Have you detached from your own sense of personal identity? If so, you are very advanced. I find that my identity still follows me around and occasionally makes me buy things I cannot afford. > Don't get cocky, though, just because I have removed your NAMA from your RUPA, your mind from your body. I have been feeling rather dissociated lately. I wonder if there is a doctor who can reattach a detached rupa? > Don't think that you can commit any crime you desire to commit while I afford this consciousness to you. Thank you for affording me this degree of consciousness, and please let me know if I owe you any fees for the loan. I don't want to owe any kammic debts. I will try not to commit too many criminal acts over the Holidays, though you know this is a challenge. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112621 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How can killiing or stealing not be conventional...? [& for K.... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon & Sarah) - In a message dated 12/18/2010 4:32:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard [and Jon] - [[and Sarah re. K. Sujin questions:]] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 12/16/2010 11:20:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > > J: Every act of killing must involve some level of akusala. The > conventional act of killing could never be described as a kusala act. > > Well in that case, you seem to be agreeing with me that the act itself has > this akusala quality, and that it is not a matter of akusala being 100% a > mental factor. > > ================================== > In these discussions, as you both probably realize, I generally tend > to side with Robert. On this point, however, I understand Jon to be saying > that there is no act of killing that does not involve a mental state, > fleeting as it might be, that is to some degree unwholesome, subliminally if not > at the surface. I suspect that is true. And, after all, is not the moral > quality of an action determined by the intention? Oh, I think what you are saying is true, but it's a dicey point in the discussion between me and Jon. Jon is saying on the one hand that it is *only* the akusala mental factor that Buddha is concerned with, and that there is *no such thing* as an akusala action or deed. I am saying that both are true - that the mental factor can be kusala or akusala, and that the physical action may also be either kusala or akusala in its own right. ---------------------------------------------------- I disagree with you on your second conjunct. IMO, and as I understand the Buddha to have taught (the Law to acknowledge), it is the accompanying mental state that makes an action wholesome or not, most particularly the intention involved. The word 'akusala' is a matter of morality, and that cannot be separated from intention, as I view the matter. If a doctor prescribes a medication that harms a patient, but the intention was only to help, the action wasn't immoral. Even if the doctor should have known better, and thus is civilly liable and might even lose his/her license due to malpractice, the action, though faulty, was not immoral. -------------------------------------------------- Jon says that akusala is *only mental,* but then he goes on to say that killing is *always* akusala. My contention is that the killing itself is akusala, because Buddha was not just concerned with the mental state, but also causing suffering to others. So he was concerned with the concrete result of the physical action, *as well as* the accompanying mental state. ---------------------------------------------------- Do you mean killing or murdering? Suppose I inadvertently bump into a ladder, and the roofer on the ladder falls to his death. In this case, I killed him but didn't murder him. My action was not immoral (or at most mildly so, due to not paying attention). OTOH, were I angry at him for having done a poor job on my own roof and then refusing to redo it, and I bump into the ladder on purpose, the action would be immoral. The mind state is an essential part of the action, and its unwholesomeness is what makes the action unwholesome. ------------------------------------------------------ Although I agree that there is probably always some akusala mental state accompanying the act of killing, I am saying that none-the-less, the physical killing is also akusala in its own right, according to the Buddha. So that is the point of contention. -------------------------------------------------------- We disagree on this one. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ If there is *always* an akusala mental state accompanying the act of killing, the question is whether this is only akusala because of the mental state, or whether it is doubly akusala, as I think it is, akusala on behalf of the mental state, AND akusala on behalf of the violence of the action which causes suffering to others. I think Buddha thought the latter based on what he says about killing itself. I was surprised at one time to read in a sutta that Buddha said that the monks could receive meat as food when they were begging for food, and it was okay to eat it. He said there was no negative kamma as long as the monk himself did not kill the animal. Even though he is in a sense participating in the "industry of killing," since he is partaking of the meat, and also "benefiting from the killing," as he is partaking of the fruits of the killing, there is no negative kamma because of that, because he did not do the *physical act* of killing itself. This seems to bear out my point that the physical act can be the repository of the akusala kamma, or akusala experience, not *only* the mental state. I think what Jon is supporting is a view of the universe of being only a matter of mental experience, with no reality to the physical world and physical events, which are seen as concepts in the mind. ---------------------------------------------------- No, I think he is simply saying that morality is a matter of mentality. There is a distinction to be made between actions that are merely harmful and actions that are immoral. Morality is a matter of kamma; i.e., intention. ----------------------------------------------------- If that were the case, then only mental states would be at issue and only mental states could be akusala. Since the physical killing would only be a concept, it would not in and of itself have akusala connected to it. I think this is what Jon is driving at, and I am trying to support the view that the physical universe *was* acknowledged by Buddha, and that physical acts and deeds could thus be akusala in their own right. Sarah, if it is not too late, I would love to have the above issue brought up for K. Sujin's response. I don't know if today was the only day you will see her. If so, sorry for the delay. The question si whether we need to be concerned with the fruits of physical actions and deeds as kusala or akusala, or are mental states the only area in which kusala and akusala arise? Buddha makes many references to kusala acts to perform, and akusala deeds to avoid. Should this be taken literally, or "translated" into arising dhammas? Thanks! Best, Robert E. ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112622 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:52 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) hantun1 Dear Azita (Sarah), [Azita] to Han - I'm happy that you seem to have recovered from yr surgery quite well, and I do enjoy the stories from Burma. [Han] Thank you very much, Azita. I also missed you at the meeting. I still remember the first time we met at the Peninsula Hotel with Sarah and Jon. I hope you are doing well. ----------- [Azita]: sometimes I have a dilemma about this keeping quiet. I tend very much to do as you do, not discuss with anyone when it comes to a difference of opinion. Generally can here at dsg but certainly not in a face to face situation. In my case, I think I lack confidence and conviction! get a bit tongue-tied. Then give myself a hard time by way of "well this is dhamma and if cant discuss this in a calm manner then cant discuss anything" A lot of mana I think, and definitely no wisdom at the time. [Han] When you said "a lot of maana", I know that you are not telling me I have a lot of maana, but you have hit the nail on its head! I was indeed very proud and arrogant when I was younger. And I was also short-tempered and easily provoked. But now, I am a beaten old man, like "a snake with broken fangs", as we used to say in Burma. I have also relinquished my dictatorial position in my family. Even Sarah noticed that! With metta, Han #112623 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural decisive support condition philofillet Dear Nina > N: As you suggest, just object-condition. It seems that the object is > stories about the generosity of this or that person, thus, concepts. > A concept is object-condition, it conditions the citta by being its > object. > The decisive support-condition of object indicates that the object is > a cogent reason for this or that citta. Ph: Can you help me understand what "cogent" means in the context of the conditions? THe dictionary says "strongly and clearly expressed in a way that influences what people believe." So the decisive conditioning citta is very clear, it stands out from others. The natural decisive support- > condition: this pertains mostly to our accumulated inclinations. But > it is very wide, such as kusala can condition akusala and vice versa. > We cannot compare the two types of conditions. Ph: I have never really come to understand n.d.s.c. I think I am still influenced by what Rob M said, that n.d.s.c refers to cittas that arise often, or recently, or both or ? but you and others have rejected that description. That's OK. I think maybe the most important thing about reading this book is not to have a perfect, detailed grasp of how the conditions work, but just to appreciate how they indicate that their is no self that is truly at the wheel steering us through life. As I was saying to Han, I personally don't think it is contradictory to Dhamma to be led by the illusion of being a good person, by being attached to one's self image for the purpose of moving behaviour in a wholesome direction, but at the heart of the matter, only conditioned dhammas, and this book helps me to understand that, thank you. Metta, Phil #112624 From: "philip" Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural decisive support condition philofillet Hi Nina and all > The natural decisive support- > > condition: this pertains mostly to our accumulated inclinations. But > > it is very wide, such as kusala can condition akusala and vice versa. > > We cannot compare the two types of conditions. > > Ph: I have never really come to understand n.d.s.c. Ph: I read on: "Habits such as going to sleep and waking up at a particular time come to us naturally, they are conditioned by way of natural decisive support condition." This helps me to understand better. Would calling the condition "accumulated decisive support condition" be far from the truth? Metta, Phil #112625 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:15 pm Subject: Nag Nag Nag ksheri3 Hi Robert E. and Jon A., Is it so hard to find that you two are the same being, both POLARIZED to your own personal positions? Is it so hard to find that there is no such thing as TWO EXTREMES that the two extremes are actually the same position? i.e. the absolute value of a negative number is equal to, the same as, it's positive number. What you need is the OBSCURATIONS, the imprissoning walls, which are identified as being the sign of ABSOLUTE VALUE encasing one of the numbers. This goes back to my youth when I was first listening to Lou Reed sing about "A Walk on the Wild Side" when he portrayed "the colored girls singing do-ta-do" IF a negative number is equal to a positive number then isn't it possible for Lou Reed to have been acknowledging the discrimination and imprisonment of the "negroe woman" since a negroe woman surely must equal a white man? NATURE ON MIND, huh? Is it a place that you'd care to go to since we're dealing with your peers and your "self"? How'd you guys like the way I characterized your living conditions and environments? Doesn't it make you wonder about this illusion called THE VALUE STRUCTURE? I just found out, last night, that the album RUBBER SOUL was created while the Beatles were in the Hindu aspect of existance with TCM (transcendental meditation) when I always thought that the Sgt. Peppers album was the best resutlant phenomena of that part of their lives. I'll give ya some time since it blows your mind that I show that Black Women equal White Men and that just throws your entire value structure out the window without the baby. toodles, colette #112626 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:21 am Subject: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Scott & All, It was a packed room at the Foundation yesterday. Amongst other friends, we were glad to see (ex)Ven Pannabahulo, now disrobed and called Alan. Most of the discussions revolved around his questions which I'll summarise later, hoping to encourage him to add further comments! One other question I raised towards the end of the session, was one that Scott had kindly sent me (off-list) for our consideration. Scott had mentioned that he's been listening to many, many hours of our edited recordings of discussions with K.Sujin [to be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org.] He had commented that she often stresses the importance of knowing the difference between moments with and without sati, with and without satipatthana. He agrees with this. He asked me to ask her "if she could actually describe in her words what she experiences as the difference between moment with and moment without?" ***** KS's reponse: "Without understanding can there be the experience of objects with sati?" S: That was it, that was her response. Some of us encouraged her to add a little more and there was some further discussion. Basically, the answer to her question is "impossible". It's the understanding which knows the distinction. When there's no understanding about sati, there cannot be the experiencing of the object with sati and understanding. It's not "me" or anyone that understands or experiences an object. At a moment of touching, just hardness is experienced. Is there any understanding? Usually, there's no understanding. If there is understanding, it comes from hearing, understanding a lot, so it can condition the understanding of reality. At such moments, awareness is aware of that dhamma as just a dhamma. So when there's the understanding of a reality, there can be the understanding of awareness. (It doesn't know it at the exact moment of sati arising, but afterwards knows it was sati at that moment.) When awareness arises, there's no doubt about it. Touching - not the moment when awareness is there. Awareness follows. Knowing hardness is understanding when there is awareness and not awareness. This is because understanding knows the difference between when there is and isn't sati. When there is sati (awareness), it knows the difference between moments when hardness appears and when it doesn't. Thanks again for the good question. I hope you don't mind my sharing the response with everyone. [Note: it is sati of satipatthana that is being referred to]. Metta Sarah p.s Rob E - also noted yours which I'll raise on Tuesday. If anyone else has any further qus they'd like us to raise, pls add them - preferably in one para only that I can read out. ========= #112627 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (2) sarahprocter... Dear Alan & Friends, I mentioned that one of the very active participants in the discussion yesterday with K.Sujin was Alan (ex Ven. Pannabahulo). Alan, if you read this, please add any more detail of your own or correct anything I've said concerning the points raised. 1. Metta Other teachers and bhikkhus stress the value of "sending metta to oneself", as a way of being kind/gentle/not so hard on/with oneself. They support this by quoting the Vism and commentary to the Vism. When one feels worthless and depressed, they stress this as being even more important. Comments: - Depression - no need to name it, just unpleasant feeling. - Cannot have metta to oneself. To what? To seeing? To hearing? As being? - Vism commentary - not just reading, but understanding. It seems like that, but if we compare how anyone, including oneself, would like to be happy, we can see the value of having metta to others. In the beginning, if you don't think about yourself, about what you'd like, you cannot think of the others. No one wants to be unhappy. So by thinking of yourself, you can understand the others' feelings. Do you like to hear harsh speech? By considering this, it's the way to develop metta (kindness/friendliness( to other beings. 2. Disrobing and ordaining Alan had disrobed last summer, finding many difficulties with the temple where he was staying. Since disrobing and leading a lay-life again, teaching in a local school, he had been feeling "world-weary" and felt what he was doing was rather "pointless". What about the samvegga, the sense of urgency at his stage of life? He was cosidering re-ordaining at a better temple with stricter Vinaya. Comments: - Why ordain again? - It depends on understanding no matter what way of living. - The meaning of samvegga in this regards. If there is more understanding and awareness, there is more sense of urgency at this moment. to be contd. **** Metta Sarah ======= #112628 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (3) sarahprocter... Dear Alan, Sukin, Ann, Azita, Nina, All!!, cont. 3. Practice Alan had mentioned his plan to go to a temple near Hua Hin over the holiday season, where the practice is according to Ajahn Naeb's teaching of awareness of body, posture, according to their understanding of the Satipatthana Sutta, whilst also studying the Abhidhamma, if I understood correctly. Comments: - moment to moment with understanding. If it's a "system", such as "posture practice", it's not understanding. - If there's no understanding, how can there be understanding of "posture" as not self? - Now, what posture is there? Sitting? No. What sits? Rupa? Can rupa sit? Can hardness sit? Can seeing sit? It's only an idea which clings to the idea of whole body as self, as posture. Hardness, softness, sound, visible object - can they sit? - Sukin mentioned that in support of the idea of awareness of postures, they refer to the vikara rupas. Posture is said to be "vikaara", a quality of rupa. [S: vikaara ruupas, aspects of other rupas as changeability/alteration - lightness, plasticity, wieldiness, along with the two intimation rupas of speech and body - all asabhava rupas]. - Why is it claimed that posture is vikara rupa? Without reading the Mahasatipatthana Sutta without careful study, there is no understanding of the realities. Citta, utu (temperature) and ahara (nutriment) can condition vikara rupas. They are special qualities of mahabhuta (4 great primary and those derived from them) rupas conditioned by citta at the moment of talking, for example. Hardness, for example, cannot itself move with ahara and temperature as conditions. A dead body doesn't have vikara rupa. (In the asannasatta (non-percipient) realm, vikara rupas are conditioned by utu only, the utu itself conditioned by kamma.) - Dukkha - claimed when one changes posture, one sees dukkha. This is not sankhara dukkha, the unsatisfactoriness of conditioned dhammas. [S: 3 kinds of dukkha - a) dukkha dukkha referring to unpleasant bodily and mental feelings, b) viparinama dukkha referring to the change of pleasant feelings and c) sankhara dukkha referring to the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas. This is the dukkha that is only understood through the Buddha's Teachings.] - What is practice now? D. Concentration Alan suggested that if there is no awareness or understanding of dhammas now, there needs to be a focussing, a concentration on particutlar dhammas/activities or some systematic technique with concentration in order to have understanding. Comments: - Ekaggata (concentration) at each moment - right or wrong now? - What is right concentration? - Development of right concentration now? - Without understanding, can one know anything about sitting posture? - Not understanding from the very beginning - If there is the idea of going somewhere, is there any understanding of dhamma now? No urgency of understanding dhamma (at such times). - Everything now can be known! E. Dhamma - What is dhamma? - Knowing the specific qualities of dhammas, visesa lakkhana, and the general qualities, saama~n~na lakkhana. Understanding the specific characteristics first. For example, understanding the characteristic of hardness before understanding the impermanence of hardness. - Understanding dhamma - understanding hardness. **** Any comments/questions very welcome! Metta Sarah ======= #112629 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (2) nilovg Dear Alan, I am so glad you were present. I had been listening to your very good questions at other discussions in Bgk and wished to be in contact again. What is your Email, and would you like me to send you my book on Conditions? In that case I need your postal address. Best wishes, Nina. Op 19-dec-2010, om 7:29 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I mentioned that one of the very active participants in the > discussion yesterday with K.Sujin was Alan (ex Ven. Pannabahulo). > Alan, if you read this, please add any more detail of your own or > correct anything I've said concerning the points raised. #112630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breakfast discussion with Han (2) nilovg Dear Han, Just some remarks concerning what Thet Oo had said about the Abhidhamma. You do not have to answer my mail, just some remarks. Op 17-dec-2010, om 22:33 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > There must be some misunderstanding if my grandson said he rejected > the Abhidhamma. On the taxi, on our way to your hotel, he said that > one cannot attain the final liberation with sutta only and one must > know the Abhidhamma for attaining magga and phala ~naa.nas. I even > told him he could not say like that, because the Mahasatipatthana > sutta, for example, is complete in itself for the path to liberation. ------- N: Perhaps it can help Thet Oo and others if one understands that the Abhidhamma is not merely the text, what is in the book. Abhidhamma is what is real now, like seeing, visible object, attachment. And Thet Oo is right: without knowing all these realities as they are enlightenment cannot be attained. Also the sutta is full of Abhidhamma. What I quote now (from what I wrote before) is all about Abhidhamma: Take the mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta, this is full of Abhidhamma. Ruupas, feelings, cittas, dhammas such as the khandhas, the elements and so on have to be known as they are: as dhammas that are anattaa. --------- As to your remarks on inducing sati, I heard on a recording an interesting passage. Someone gave the example we find in the Visuddhimagga about a monk who walked forward and then stopped when there was no sati. Then he went on when there was sati. Kh Sujin remarked: nobody is the same, we should not forget this. Thinking in this way or that way is conditioned. It does not mean that everybody has to imitate that monk. Aananda and Saariputta did not do this. I think it is good to remember that everybody has his way because of accumulated inclinations. Nina. #112631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural decisive support condition nilovg Dear Phil, Op 19-dec-2010, om 1:08 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: I read on: "Habits such as going to sleep and waking up at a > particular time come to us naturally, they are conditioned by way > of natural decisive support condition." > > This helps me to understand better. Would calling the condition > "accumulated decisive support condition" be far from the truth? ------- N: What we naturally do, our accumulated inclinations are included in the decisive support-condition, but much more than this is included. Therefore decisive support condition is sufficient. --- Nina. #112632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural decisive support condition nilovg Dear Phil, Op 19-dec-2010, om 0:55 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Can you help me understand what "cogent" means in the context > of the conditions? THe dictionary says "strongly and clearly > expressed in a way that influences what people believe." So the > decisive conditioning citta is very clear, it stands out from others. ------ N: A cogent reason indicates that it is very strong. The force of this condition is very strong. ------- > > The natural decisive support- > > condition: this pertains mostly to our accumulated inclinations. But > > it is very wide, such as kusala can condition akusala and vice > versa. > > We cannot compare the two types of conditions. > > Ph: I have never really come to understand n.d.s.c. I think I am > still influenced by what Rob M said, that n.d.s.c refers to cittas > that arise often, or recently, or both or ? but you and others have > rejected that description. That's OK. ------ N: "Cittas that often arise", this does not express the meaning sufficiently. Seeing also arises often, but it is merely one moment of vipaaka. ------ > > Ph: I think maybe the most important thing about reading this book > is not to have a perfect, detailed grasp of how the conditions > work, but just to appreciate how they indicate that their is no > self that is truly at the wheel steering us through life. As I was > saying to Han, I personally don't think it is contradictory to > Dhamma to be led by the illusion of being a good person, by being > attached to one's self image for the purpose of moving behaviour in > a wholesome direction, but at the heart of the matter, only > conditioned dhammas, and this book helps me to understand that, > thank you. ---- N: You summarized this very well. Nina. #112633 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (1) nilovg Dear Sarah and Scott, Op 19-dec-2010, om 7:21 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Scott had mentioned that he's been listening to many, many hours of > our edited recordings of discussions with K.Sujin [to be found on > www.dhammastudygroup.org.] He had commented that she often stresses > the importance of knowing the difference between moments with and > without sati, with and without satipatthana. He agrees with this. > He asked me to ask her "if she could actually describe in her words > what she experiences as the difference between moment with and > moment without?" > ***** N: Thank you Sarah, very good discussions, and a good question of Scott which is the same Lodewijk also asks. I quote from an old discussion: < We discussed about the difference between the moments of awareness and the moments that there is no awareness. Sujin: Pa~n~naa knows when awareness arises. It knows the difference between moments with awareness and moments without awareness. We touch things and body-consciousness experiences hardness without awareness. But sometimes when hardness presents itself there is awareness of hardness. The object is then exactly the same. Reality presents itself now but ignorance cannot understand it. When visible object appears we do not have to call it visible object. It appears and awareness can be aware of it, it does not move away from it. Pa~n~naa can begin to see it as a reality. It takes time to become detached from the story about visible object, from thinking about the name, or about the theory. The development of pa~n~naa can be proven when the effect is letting go, even for a moment, of clinging to visible object. Pa~n~naa passes on to another object, instantly, naturally. Otherwise one may cling with thinking or trying to understand the object. When pa~n~naa develops it can understand instantly and become detached instantly. It is such a short moment and then other realities appear and pa~n~naa can understand these.” Kh Sujin explained several times that if we think about the reality that appears or name it, that there is no opportunity for awareness of a next reality. I understand, because then there is thinking and thinking and thinking. > ------- Nina. - #112634 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 18-dec-2010, om 18:10 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Without nimitta there no chance to concentrate. No chance to > practise and develop all kinds of kusalas. Nothing by strenght, > cause nimitta is always there. > > Hearing on nimitta reminded me about the importance of Dhamma. That > it is important to give a chance to kusala also, by cultivating the > objects. Remember the sign. Remember Nimitta. > > I'd like to be informed more on Nimitta, how this is disctincted in > the Texts? ------- N: We should not forget that there are different meanings of nimitta, depending on the context. As to your example of concentration in Samatha, here nimitta refers to a meditation subject. Second meaning: We also read in the suttas about being taken in by the "sign" of the outward appearance and details of things when there is no awareness of one reality. Another meaning of nimitta. Third meaning: Then there the meaning of sa"nkhaara nimitta, nimitta of ruupakkhandha, of vedanaakkhandha, etc. of all five khandhas, thus, of all conditioned realities. THis is mentioned in the "Path of Discrimination" and commentaries. This kind of nimitta we often discussed with Kh Sujin. Requote: < visible object arises and falls away very quickly and the object that just arises vanishes so quickly that we do not know which one is the one that is appearing now. Only a nimitta of it remains. It seems that it lasts for a while. She used the simile of a stick of fire you turn around in a circle and it seems to be a circle of fire. (Ledi Sayadaw mentioned this also). Or it seems that there is one moment that hardness appears. In reality this is not so, there are many moments of hardness arising and falling away. We do not know which one is the present one. There is ruupa-nimitta, vedanaa-nimitta, sa~n~naa-nimitta, sa.nkhaara-nimitta and vi~n~naa.na-nimitta. Only nibbaana is without nimitta, it is animitta.> ------- Nina. #112635 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah & Scott) - In a message dated 12/19/2010 9:20:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Sarah and Scott, Op 19-dec-2010, om 7:21 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Scott had mentioned that he's been listening to many, many hours of > our edited recordings of discussions with K.Sujin [to be found on > www.dhammastudygroup.org.] He had commented that she often stresses > the importance of knowing the difference between moments with and > without sati, with and without satipatthana. He agrees with this. > He asked me to ask her "if she could actually describe in her words > what she experiences as the difference between moment with and > moment without?" > ***** N: Thank you Sarah, very good discussions, and a good question of Scott which is the same Lodewijk also asks. I quote from an old discussion: < We discussed about the difference between the moments of awareness and the moments that there is no awareness. Sujin: Pa~n~naa knows when awareness arises. It knows the difference between moments with awareness and moments without awareness. We touch things and body-consciousness experiences hardness without awareness. But sometimes when hardness presents itself there is awareness of hardness. ----------------------------------------------- Yes, awareness of the sensation as it is, with no thought or name or anything else added on. --------------------------------------------- The object is then exactly the same. Reality presents itself now but ignorance cannot understand it. When visible object appears we do not have to call it visible object. ------------------------------------------- That's right. It simply is just as it is. ------------------------------------------ It appears and awareness can be aware of it, it does not move away from it. Pa~n~naa can begin to see it as a reality. It takes time to become detached from the story about visible object, from thinking about the name, or about the theory. ------------------------------------------- And at times, the story-telling can just be dropped like a hot potato. ------------------------------------------- The development of pa~n~naa can be proven when the effect is letting go, even for a moment, of clinging to visible object. Pa~n~naa passes on to another object, instantly, naturally. Otherwise one may cling with thinking or trying to understand the object. When pa~n~naa develops it can understand instantly and become detached instantly. It is such a short moment and then other realities appear and pa~n~naa can understand these.†-------------------------------------------- The term 'realities' notwithstanding, I like this very-Zen-like paragraph a lot. --------------------------------------------- Kh Sujin explained several times that if we think about the reality that appears or name it, that there is no opportunity for awareness of a next reality. I understand, because then there is thinking and thinking and thinking. > ---------------------------------------------- Yes! ---------------------------------------------- ------- Nina. =============================== I really enjoyed this post, Nina. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112636 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:07 pm Subject: Re: Nimitta szmicio Dear Nina, Let me add some thoughts, since this was long time I considered nimitta. Now I remember this more vivid. This nimitta thing is a very hard topic. > N: We should not forget that there are different meanings of nimitta, > depending on the context. As to your example of concentration in > Samatha, here nimitta refers to a meditation subject. L: Yes, so in this case nimitta is like the wood for fire. It seems to me that it is neccessery for concentration. Like an image there that is prevailing, so that we can concentrate. By the way I like the name the objects, for meditation subjects. This helps me to keep in mind that there are only different objects of meditation changing constanly, due to conditions. No Self just changing objects of meditation. What's the name in pali for the meditation subjects? How many meditation subjects there is? > Second meaning: We also read in the suttas about being taken in by > the "sign" of the outward appearance and details of things when there > is no awareness of one reality. L: In Visudhimagga(?) there is story about Thera who was taken in by the woman appeariance. Minor and major characteristic. And then get enlightened seeing asubha. What's the minor characteristic? >Another meaning of nimitta. > Third meaning: Then there the meaning of sa"nkhaara nimitta, nimitta > of ruupakkhandha, of vedanaakkhandha, etc. of all five khandhas, > thus, of all conditioned realities. THis is mentioned in the "Path of > Discrimination" and commentaries. This kind of nimitta we often > discussed with Kh Sujin. Requote: > < visible object arises and falls away very quickly and the object > that just arises vanishes so quickly that we do not know which one is > the one that is appearing now. Only a nimitta of it remains. It seems > that it lasts for a while. She used the simile of a stick of fire you > turn around in a circle and it seems to be a circle of fire. (Ledi > Sayadaw mentioned this also). Or it seems that there is one moment > that hardness appears. In reality this is not so, there are many > moments of hardness arising and falling away. We do not know which > one is the present one. There is ruupa-nimitta, vedanaa-nimitta, > sa~n~naa-nimitta, sa.nkhaara-nimitta and vi~n~naa.na-nimitta. Only > nibbaana is without nimitta, it is animitta.> > ----- L: So there are three meanings of nimitta: 1) Nimitta as a sign that is necessery for practising concentration described as meditation subject. 2) Nimitta as a hindrance, minor and major characterisctics of things, that takes us all in. 3) Nimitta as a sign that all realities have. So that only shadow of realities remains. Best wishes Lukas P.s If anyone have any quotations on nimitta from suttas, vinaya, abhidhamma or comentaries please quote. #112637 From: "philip" Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural decisive support condition philofillet Hi Nina (and all) > > This helps me to understand better. Would calling the condition > > "accumulated decisive support condition" be far from the truth? > ------- > N: What we naturally do, our accumulated inclinations are included in > the decisive support-condition, but much more than this is included. > Therefore decisive support condition is sufficient. Ph: Do you mean "therefore natural decisive support condition is sufficient" above? It is "natural" because it is accumulated over time... This is why I wondered if "accumulated decisive support condition" could be as good a name as "natural decisive support condition." Anyways, I think I understand enough on this for now. Thank you. And I understand "cogent" now. Metta, Phil #112638 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (3) gazita2002 Hallo Sarah, I have a question for Tues. Listening to a discussion a comment was made about giving a no-longer needed something/anything away and it was kind of implied that one shouldnt give unwanted things away???!! - not too sure about that idea. Anyway, A.Sujin answered with " when you give, can you respect the receiver?" Can you ask for a little more explanation on that comment please. I can sort of see what is meant, like its easy to give away something one no longer needs, and you wouldnt give away something you didnt like to someone you really liked and respected. Mmmmm, mayb I've answered it for myself but I would like to hear more on this, if conditions are right :) Please give my regards to Achan and all at the session. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alan, Sukin, Ann, Azita, Nina, All!!, > > cont. #112639 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (1) gazita2002 Hallo Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sujin: Pa~n~naa knows when awareness arises. It knows the difference > between moments with awareness and moments without awareness. We > touch things and body-consciousness experiences hardness without > awareness. But sometimes when hardness presents itself there is > awareness of hardness. The object is then exactly the same. Reality > presents itself now but ignorance cannot understand it. When visible > object appears we do not have to call it visible object. It appears > and awareness can be aware of it, it does not move away from it. > Pa~n~naa can begin to see it as a reality. It takes time to become > detached from the story about visible object, from thinking about the > name, or about the theory. > > The development of pa~n~naa can be proven when the effect is letting > go, even for a moment, of clinging to visible object. Pa~n~naa passes > on to another object, instantly, naturally. Otherwise one may cling > with thinking or trying to understand the object. When pa~n~naa > develops it can understand instantly and become detached instantly. > It is such a short moment and then other realities appear and > pa~n~naa can understand these." > > Kh Sujin explained several times that if we think about the reality > that appears or name it, that there is no opportunity for awareness > of a next reality. I understand, because then there is thinking and > thinking and thinking. > > Nina. Azita: You know, I heard Ajarn make a comment about not remembering dates of events, or years passing, doesnt pay much attention to these things; when I heard that I was a bit puzzled and started to think about forgetting things and worrying about 'dementia' :) but what you have written above makes lots of sense to me. Its not like I am suddenly going to forget everything -well, I could - but probably for different reasons - but we cling to our thinking and our ideas about events, people etc. We cant help thinking, it is conditioned to arise, awareness can be aware of that reality. How anatta it all is!!! Patience, courage and good cheer azita #112640 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (2) truth_aerator Hello Sarah, all, >S: - Depression - no need to name it, just unpleasant feeling. It is much more than dukkha-vedana. Sankharas are involved there as well. I wonder which cetasikas exactly? > - Why ordain again? IMHO, to ordain helps To live a holy life and have stricter virtue. It also helps to set up better conditions for growth of the path. Buddha on many occasions praised monasticism. With metta, Alex #112641 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:31 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ksheri3 Hi Jon, Interesting how you toss around concepts like "...crossing swords..." as I work the alchemy of THE BOOK OF FIVE RINGS in an attempt to filter impurities. While your reply to me was rather "playful" I noticed that your "polarized counterpart", Robert E., replied in more elevated tones (tonal qualities having more stress than your reply). For all we know you could "care LESS" about Robert's abstract views of Dharma, so maybe, this is the first time you've crossed swords. When you say "...it's just the way we hold a conversation ;-))" are you suggesting that you hold conversations differently with another person that you are not sure of their social STATUS? ---------------------------------- J: The only witnesses I know anything about are those that appear in my court cases ;-)) colette: you have "cases"? Are they anything like the "cardboard boxes" that PINK FLOYD sang about in their album THE WALL? what do you "confine" in your "cases"? Let me look at SCHROEDINGER'S CAT experiment. You've imprisoned a cat inside a box or behind a GREAT WALL, obscuration, with a small bit of RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL and you are collecting wagers concerning the life of the cat: is the cat dead or is the cat alive. IF you open the box then you interfere with the experiment and thus nullify the wagers but if you do not open the box then how can you possibly pay the bet or be paid by the bet? INTERESTING dilema you've gotten yourself in. Now lets ponder my colleagues stress-filled reply. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Colette > > (112208) > > Do I detect a bit of tension in Robert E's response to you, Jon? > > =============== > > J: Robert E and I have been crossing swords (as it were) on dhamma issues for as long as I care to remember; it's just the way we hold a conversation ;-)) <...> #112642 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:14 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ksheri3 Hi Jon, Let me help you out here and give your consciousness some direction. Lets focus on your application of "...crossing swords...". I entered into the discussion that you and Robert E. were having. I characterized you both as being "polar opposites" as I traverse the MIDDLE PATH. Part of this characterization is the ambiguity that you two are actually in DIS-AGREEMENT or are performing what is called a STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE (SOP). I'll focus on the potential that you are performing an SOP. Maybe it' your aggitation that Bruce Lee was buried in Seattle WA instead of Hong Kong. B.Lee hated the robotics of Kung Fu which is why he developed JEET KUN DO. It may just be true that you two are just performing a KATA: "A Japanese word describing detailed choreographed patterns of movements practised either solo or in pairs", "...kata is a way to 'keep two things in sync or harmmony with one another'". Isn't CHOREOGRAPHY equal to the statement "IF this THEN that"? We all know that "this" & "that" are the same thing. Not very Buddhist of you. Why use the characteristic of Kata when it is a Japanese concept and more closely related to SHINTO, via KARATE as EMPTY HAND. Now lets move onward, forward, in the bunkai, NOT BACKWARD as if in defense. What does a sword do? IF SO, then can't we view your concept through the lense of KADAG TREKCHO, "thorough cutting"? Under this guise we must admit that the act which KADAG TREKCHO represents is not a single thing/act but a continuous act/behavior. Here I find Robert E.'s reply to me in reference to his application of "dillegence" since seperating the conscious and subconsious "ego" as being a hypothetical "self". While the initial cut may be achieved, MINDFULNESS or DILLEGENCE must be maintained since there may be sinuey tendons still holding the muscle to the bone or the bones together by joints. That should give you enough to work with while I wait to get to the library tomorrow. Would I be too close to the FAR SIDE if I were to suggest you "chew on the fat" of this one for a while? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Interesting how you toss around concepts like "...crossing swords..." as I work the alchemy of THE BOOK OF FIVE RINGS in an attempt to filter impurities. While your reply to me was rather "playful" I noticed that your "polarized counterpart", Robert E., replied in more elevated tones (tonal qualities having more stress than your reply). For all we know you could "care LESS" about Robert's abstract views of Dharma, so maybe, this is the first time you've crossed swords. <...> #112643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (1) nilovg Dear Azita and Howard, Op 20-dec-2010, om 1:14 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > we cling to our thinking and our ideas about events, people etc. > We cant help thinking, it is conditioned to arise, awareness can be > aware of that reality. How anatta it all is!!! ------- N: I had to think about what Howard wrote: That is just for a moment, when a reality is the object of sati and pa~n~naa. The next moment we think of concepts again. But I do not consider stories like a hot potatoe ;-)) I like my stories and most of the time there is thinking of stories. But Azita, it is like you say, also thinking is anattaa. Some people may believe that it is bad to think of concepts and stories, but we should not mind at all. It is not forbidden. Anything that naturally appears can eventually be understood. Nina. #112644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:27 am Subject: Thet Oo's interest. nilovg Dear Han, I was thinking about Thet Oo and his interest in samatha. He is the same person I met when I saw you last time? He is very nice and so interested in the Dhamma. He remarked well that the Abhidhamma is necessary for enlightenment, but I want to add: also before that. Just a little elaboration, but you need not react. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that in each process of cittas when seeing experiences visible object, hearing experiences sound and so on, kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. As you know, these are called javana cittas. That means that even now, when seeing has arisen, shortly after that javana cittas arise. These are mostly akusala cittas, not kusala cittas. But we do not notice this, cittas arise and fall away so very fast. Countless cittas rooted in ignorance, moha, arise and fall away and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. This can help us not to be deluded about the cittas that arise. When one is developing calm cittas accompanied by indifferent feeling may delude one into thinking that there is calm with many kusala cittas without interruption. In reality this is not so. Keen pa~n~naa is needed that detects the akusala cittas that arise. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that there are many, many more akusala cittas than we ever thought. This is not discouraging, it is realistic. When jhaana is attained there can be many moments of kusala jhanacittas succeeding one another, but before that this is not the case. But Thet Oo may know all this. ------- Nina. #112645 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thet Oo's interest. hantun1 Dear Nina,  (1) When I said [the Mahasatipa.t.thaana sutta, for example, is complete in itself for the path to liberation] I meant one can attain the magga and phala ~naa.nas by following the instructions given in the Mahasatipa.t.thaana sutta without studying the Abhidhammatthasangaha *book* or the Seven *Books* of the Abhidhamma. I did not mean that there is no Abhidhamma principles in the Mahasatipa.t.thaana sutta.  (2) As regards Thet Oo and his interest in samatha, yes, Nina, he is the same person whom you met. I will tell him the contents of your message. He will appreciate it.  Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #112646 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:46 am Subject: trivial pursuits gazita2002 hallo dsg-ers, Today I was browsing thro some of the older posts and the not so old. Without adding names or dates, here is some excerpts which arent really related to anything, however they made me smile: "I will lie low for a while, perhaps I will discover the secret joys of lurking" "And if he ever start patronising me I send him direct flight without stop to 'buddhist hell' - I am joking" "PS. so, do I get a chocolate? No, bec you're the one who got me into this messy question:)" "It seemed that all of Bangkok was wearing yellow for the year of the King's birthday---they all had a year off having to make dress decisions in the morning!" "not very Buddhist of you" "you cannot make the clear meanings of words a prisoner of your philosophy" Thanks folks, I'm sure some of you will recognise yrselves:) patience, courage and good cheer azita #112647 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:15 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han philofillet Hi Robert > Don't worry on our behalf, Phil. Han and I only have these problems because of our evil deeds in the past. :-))) Now that we are experiencing only 100% kusala cittas, the results of this bad kamma will end very soon, and then we will be in perfect bliss. Ph: Seriously, we take our unpleasant physical experiences as vipaka, we dry out the old kamma and don't produce new kamma. I still very much like my image of the vipaka lightning rod, vipaka runs through us, into the ground, because ideally we are grounded and have resilience to objects. How to get grounded? Let's not go there.... Ok, let's go there. We meditate. I should do a lot more of it! Metta, Phil #112648 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:51 pm Subject: Today is Unduwap Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be Real Buddhist through Observance? Unduwap Poya is this Fullmoon of December celebrating 2 events: 1: The arrival of Nun Theri Sanghamitta, sister of Arahat Mahinda, from India in the 3rd century B.C. establishing the Order of Nuns. 2: The arrival at Anuradhapura of a sapling of the sacred Bodhi Tree at Buddhagaya, brought to Sri Lanka by Arahat Theri Sanghamitta. Arahat Theri Sanghamitta arrives w. tree. This day is designated Sanghamitta Day. Nowadays Dasasil Matas; ten-precept nuns, take an active part in making these celebrations. Arahat Theri Sanghamitta , daughter of Emperor Asoka & sister to Mahinda . Details on the Arahat Nun Theri Sanghamitta and the MahaBodhi Tree: See: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/sanghamitta_theri.htm and the Tree http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/b/bodhirukka.htm The over 2000 years old Bodhi Tree in Ceylon. Please notice the Lay Buddhist wear all white clothes, which was classic at Buddha’s time! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges & undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in/to this world! So is the start towards Nibbâna: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha / observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish a recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here. A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! Sanghamitta Theri arrives at Ceylon with a sapling of the Bodhi Tree <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112649 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thet Oo's interest. hantun1 Dear Nina,  I gave a copy of your message to Thet Oo. He agrees with whatever you have written, and he is very happy.  Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #112650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thet Oo's interest. nilovg Dear Han, good to have contact with Thet Oo in this way, thank you, Nina. Op 20-dec-2010, om 15:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I gave a copy of your message to Thet Oo. > He agrees with whatever you have written, and he is very happy. #112651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural decisive support condition nilovg Dear Phil, Op 20-dec-2010, om 0:39 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > N: What we naturally do, our accumulated inclinations are included in > > the decisive support-condition, but much more than this is included. > > Therefore decisive support condition is sufficient. > > Ph: Do you mean "therefore natural decisive support condition is > sufficient" above? > > It is "natural" because it is accumulated over time... This is why > I wondered if "accumulated decisive support condition" could be as > good a name as "natural decisive support condition." ------ N: I do not think so. The fact that akusala conditions kusala, is included, and when you change the name into accumulated decisive support-condition this is not covered by just accumulation. Why should we change the names of the conditions? That would be confusing. Nina. #112652 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:19 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) epsteinrob Hi Phil, Han and all. Long rumination follows... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > ...We can certainly directly perceive anatta in the uncontrollability of the way things turn out, but who can truly say that they don't have the illusion/delusion of control over things? But truly, technically speaking, there is no control. Let's say that upon opening our eyes in the morning, we vow "today I will have mindfulness of all activities until I close my eyes at night", and do so. Amazing. But does it disprove anatta? I don't think so, because all the dhammas that are involved in that day full of perfect mindfulness are still anatta, they are arising due to conditions, perhaps conditioned by our strong chanda that is rooted in the idea of having perfect mindfulness. So may I propose that we don't insist on believing in perceiving anatta or having it at the center from the beginning, but we still believing in the theory of anatta from the beginning, or something like that? That our belief in controlling activities is good, and still in line with the Dhamma, but there is an illusion of control, technically speaking, because all the dhammas that are behind the behaviour etc are anatta even if we don't perceive them as such from the beginning? I guess one question would be whether meditation supports perception of anicca and anatta or makes perception of anicca and anatta more difficult. The anti-meditation camp says that the intention to meditate, rather than the activity, is born from the delusion of a self that controls the development of samatha and sati, and thus every moment of meditating is filled with a false self-view of control. In other words, we have the view that through meditation we can cause the enlightenment factors to develop. This would keep us from perceiving anatta, because we are intending a self that controls the entire time. Maybe we would perceive a false type of anatta that seems right but which would have an underlying sense of control - that we caused the perception of anatta to arise, and thus we have a subtle self-view that the self is able to perceive anatta, rather than an impersonal consciousness. I have always said that if one understands the mechanical integrity of meditation - that it is a tool the Buddha recommended to use in a certain way to develop samatha and sati - that one can do it on this basis without the illusion of a self that controls. One believes in the mechanical integrity of the tool, not in a self that practices. So we're not controlling the moments of meditation or what arises in meditation. We just trust that if we practice as Buddha explained, the results will come from that practice which Buddha set up. No self necessary - it's just a direct line from the Buddha's instructions to following the instructions. The other objection is that *any* organized activity involves self-view, and that this is fine for tennis lessons, but becomes wrong view when applied to the Dhamma. For conventional activities, it's fine to make use of a conventional self-concept, but for Dhamma we cannot get past self-concept without realizing that there is no control, no practice, no activity that can be done by a "self." This leaves us understanding Dhamma, and letting the moments fall where they may. Under this philosophy, the practice is no-practice; understanding Dhamma and then sitting back to see what resultant moments arise, then studying and understanding some more. As I have come to understand it, this does not mean that the moments arise randomly. You may find after a certain amount of understanding that you are "zoning out" for a longer period of time with a bunch of "samatha moments" arising in a row, and that would be the equivalent of "samatha meditation" except you did not choose a place and time to sit down. The accumulated panna just led to samatha arising and it may be in the airport terminal while waiting to board, or it may be that instead of falling asleep one night you find that there are four hours of jhana. But this would only happen in whatever place, time and position after the right accumulations had developed from "mere understanding" of Dhamma and the panna that this led to naturally. And so on, for all the enlightenment factors until they reach a critical mass. My understanding is that the same sense of "allowing" development, without a self forcing the issue, can be taken to meditation, and that the Buddha's methods for practice will "accelerate" the process of understanding and direct discernment, though this process cannot be controlled. Maybe that is "self-view-based" greed on my part, to think that practice can get "me" there "sooner." But on the other hand, when I think this way, I wonder why Buddha, who was so stern about all of the unwholesome activities and mistaken pathways one could take, was always so positive and enthusiastic about correct meditation technique, why he never ever once warned anyone to "make sure and not practice before one was ready." The only sutta I have seen where this came up was the nephew who insisted on meditation and had a lot of errant thoughts come up each time he attempted it. What did Buddha do? Did he say "Stop meditating, it's the wrong path!" No, he outlined a program of correct steps which included concentration and mindfulness, only bolstered by other supporting factors. I guess I would say the same thing to someone who was meditating today as the Buddha did, "If you find that your practice develops right factors, and diminishes negative thoughts and feelings, continue on. If you find the practice disturbing you may need to clean up the akusala areas of your life and then try again." Or something like that. But there is no doubt that along with Dhamma study and understanding, Buddha highly lauded, encouraged and supported meditation practice in almost every case that it appears in sutta, and even said that the practice of anapanasati and satipatthana contained the whole path if followed step by step. So I take the admonition to be aware of self-view and the illusion of control, but don't see it as a reason to refrain from the practice that the Buddha taught. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #112653 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: Re: Introduction!!! epsteinrob Hi Lukacs. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > > > Would the arahat have "inclinations," such as spending the afternoon reading a commentary, or would he be beyond such interests? > > L:Yes, they have vasana, in pali behaviours or inclinations I think so. This is mentioned by AS in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. I think I can look it up and quote later. > > Vasanas it's something like you mentioned, even though Arahat doesnt have any bad thoughts and reactions anymore(all reactions of Arahat are neither bad or good, they are without any hetu, root), Arahats have their "inclinations" - vasanas. > > Arahants can be more inclined to do this more than that. And also when AS becomes Arahat she can still teaches about a reading Dhamma listing to it, while other Arahats like Acharn Chahn can be more on meditating etc.. > > Those vasanas, for me are more like 'the old trash' that is out of control. This is always good remider that our different bevoiours are only vasanas. > > Only Buddha, the Arahat, doesnt have vasanas, so that's why Buddha-Dhamma is so perfect. This is discovered by the perfect guy with no inclinations anymore, while other Theras' still have it. > > That's how I used to consider that matter. Thanks, I appreciate your understanding of this. That is interesting, and good information. I guess as we become more attached to our own vasanas, they will be less "out of control" and just natural tendencies within our "right action." Someday, anyway... :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112654 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:33 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) epsteinrob Hi Han, Sarah and all. Some of these topics were of special interest to me, so hope you don't mind if I add my two cents. I will take the topic below first, then more in separate posts... [Extremely long post below! I don't know what's wrong with me lately, but I can't stop talking...! :-) ] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > [Han] When I started doing breath meditation "on-cushion" in a quiet place in the house, I found that more evil thoughts entered my mind than when I was not meditating. It was not the fault of the technique, but my fault. I think there are a couple of different ways of looking at the arising of negative or unwholesome or disturbing thoughts in meditation. We do have the example of the Buddha's nephew - I wish I could remember the sutta; it was just the other day that it was mentioned... - who had disturbing thoughts arise when meditating, and the Buddha advised him to correct the sources of akusala and instability through several areas of attention, such as wholesome action in daily life - though he did not rule out meditation. The sense I had was that he was advising the nephew to build up his wholesome factors and then go back to meditating when he was better prepared. This would go along with some discussions I had with Jon which had two aspects - 1/ Jon would say that the meditators who were taught anapanasati and satipatthana meditation were already well-prepared and that Buddha was addressing those who already were well-entrenched in this kind of meditation naturally through accumulations. So there may be a factor of suitability before started a certain kind of meditation. On the other hand, this ignores the fact that the setting for the anapanasati sutta included thousands of "beginners" who were being trained by the advanced monks, so they were not cut out of the training by being inexperienced in the techniques. 2/ Jon said at one time, which I thought was fascinating, that it was in fact possible to find someone naturally and correctly practicing jhana or other meditation techniques for longer periods of time, but that this too would arise naturally from accumulations. According to this model, the person who had studied Dhamma to a certain point and began to develop the accumulations for bhavana of this kind would naturally find themselves more and more inclined - "when convenient" - to sit down in front of a tree, or find an empty building, or perhaps the roof of a skyscraper, :-), and sit and follow breath, whether towards development of samatha/jhana or insight, and he might find his inclination towards this just naturally growing steadily until he might even find that his lifestyle and time management were such that he could spend many hours in jhana or many hours developing vipassana. There was no decision involved per se, there was no sense of need to meditate, and no sense that there was an "I" who was "practicing," but it would be just like, I guess, the man who finds that on his lunch hour he always likes to sit on a certain park bench, eat his sandwhich, and then gaze at the trees for a 1/2 hour before going back to work. That man, or woman, might have the accumulations for jhana and it may be that during that 1/2 hour that he is jhana and doesn't care to know or need to know that this is happening "naturally," because during that "practice time" there is no self in play and he is accumulating more kusala and deeper jhana each time. If the world really works that way, it is great! :-) So it may be, in the case above, that if disturbing thoughts arise, the best thing to do is to cut off the practice that is disturbing the mind, and develop some other factors to develop and stabilize the kusala qualities of mind, and then perhaps one can come back to insight meditation when it arises without so many hindrances. In your case, you find that you can practice samatha meditation without any problem, and you can cultivate insight in a different setting where thoughts don't disturb you. Someone else might find it just impossible to do samatha meditation, because so much restlessness and agitation and doubt arise, that they have to get up, and it's not at all calming. So different accumulations for different folks. On the other hand, there is another way to look at the disturbing thoughts when they arise in a vipassana type meditation. Bikkhu Bodhi has noted in his lectures on the satipatthana sutta that one can expect the hindrances to come up from time to time in meditation, even if one starts out with a sort of "clean slate" when starting out in a particular session. This is because they will continue to arise until all the hindrances have been cut off at the root, and that may be quite a while from now. I also personally find that when I settle down and stop distracting myself, ie, in meditation, a bunch of material that normally doesn't bother me comes into consciousness. That is not because consciousness has become "worse" but because I am now in a position to notice it. Through the breathing a lot of this negative material and negative feeling "clear out," so it does fit the metaphor of "dumping the trash bin" in the computer and starting out with a cleaner desktop! If one is able to tolerate suppressed feeling, thoughts and sensations and allow them to "clear out" through the breath, it is my thought that this is a good way of cleaning out accumulated akusala material that may have been suppressed and stored for lifetimes. The question is: Is one ready to tolerate this material "on the way out" and allow it come up and out through the breathing process and attention process? And can one resist the temptation to generate further proliferations on the material that one notices, rather than letting it go and continuing to go to the next arising phenomenon? So I think it can go both ways - if one is ready to clear out old material, perhaps some negative experience can be tolerated in meditation - in the right context, without building it up, but by releasing it out. And if not, then it seems correct to put that practice aside for awhile, and deal with the negative roots in a different mode. But I don't think that the presence of disturbing material in and of itself is a sign of bad practice or even of a bad tendency on the part of the person. It may be a real "cleaning out" procedure, that one is meant to do in this lifetime. I realize that the above view is a somewhat "yogic" view - the idea of purification through breathing has a yogic root, and yet I think that viewing whatever arises with sati within anapansati has a similar bent, and that this idea of "cleaning out impurities" or defilements or hindrances is in line with the Dhamma. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #112655 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) epsteinrob Hi Han, Sarah and All. My next topic of interest from your discussion with Sarah et al. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > ...I supplement my meritorious deeds with the reading of Dhamma books, listening to the Dhamma tapes, and the reflection on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with prayer beads... I just have a personal question that your report reminded me about. I find it difficult to maintain faith in the accumulation of merit. I understand that greater knowledge leading to liberation can come from Dhamma study, and I understand the positive effects of reaching greater development through meditation. I even understand that doing good works and maintaining good thoughts has positive benefits, but I find it difficult to understand how "merit," as a kind of quantity that is made greater and gives good results in the future, can exist as a real element. If you or anyone can say something about how merit works and how faith in meritorious action can be strengthened, I would appreciate it. I guess this goes with a belief in the effects of kamma as well, that a good or evil thought or action now will have consequences in future vipaka. I understand the concept but have a hard time fully subscribing to this, as it is difficult to observe in action. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112656 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) epsteinrob Hi Han, Sarah and All. My final topic from this discussion for the moment! :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > 8. Thet Oo - his aim is to have more calmness, whereas for us, the aim is to develop more understanding of whatever dhamma is conditioned. If one is so concerned about calmness, one becomes very concerned about being agitated or about a lack of calm at the present moment. > > [Han] Yes, he wants calmness more than anything else, because he has so many worries at the moment. The pain due to severe cervical spondylosis and severe lumbar spondylosis is a constant worry for him all throughout the day during his waking hours. He also has worries about his future and his security. So naturally, he wants calmness. That may also be a reason why he was frustrated and agitated while discussing with Jon and you. It seems like it is the week for discussing my own physical problems. I happen to have a case of spondylolisis [possibly spondylolisthesis] which, along with spondylosis, are all related or similar conditions. This is not necessarily a strictly "Buddhist" topic, but just has to do with the physical problem itself. When I was a teenager I was diagnosed with a displacement or crack in the 5th lumbar vertebrae, defined as either spondylolisis or spondylolisthesis of L5. At the time I had grown a couple of inches very rapidly, which destabilized the spinal muscles and revealed this underlying problem with the bones. It was quite bad, and at times I couldn't walk. I was 14 or 15 and I was presented with two possibilities: either get a spinal fusion operation which would leave me in a body cast for 8 months [!], or do a series of exercises to strengthen and stabilize the area, which would require some discipline. I chose the exercises and for 6 months I slept on a blanket on the floor with my knees bent over a bolster so that the lumbar area was flat on the floor. Three times a day I did a very simple exercise which all by itself, combined with the sleeping mode, stabilized the area and got rid of the pain for many years - inhale and on the exhalation press the lower back down into the floor and hold it down with the abdominal muscles for several seconds. Release and take a few breaths, then repeat again. You can do this a number of times in a row, with a breathing break each time, and then do the sequence again several times a day. When the back becomes strengthened in this way, there are other exercises that can increase the strength around the spinal muscles, such as lying on the stomach and lifting the chest while holding the back and buttock muscles very firm, but this is more advanced. It is advised to do the "back pressing" for a long period of time until those lumbar muscles are stable. The result of these exercises for me was that I was able to go back to normal functioning, even play basketball, and I did not have to get the operation. I don't know if this will be of help to your nephew, but I thought it might be worth sharing! These exercises can be very powerful! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112657 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How can killiing or stealing not be conventional...? [& for K.... epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I am saying that both are true - that the mental factor can be kusala or > akusala, and that the physical action may also be either kusala or akusala > in its own right. > ---------------------------------------------------- > I disagree with you on your second conjunct. IMO, and as I understand > the Buddha to have taught (the Law to acknowledge), it is the accompanying > mental state that makes an action wholesome or not, most particularly the > intention involved. The word 'akusala' is a matter of morality, and that > cannot be separated from intention, as I view the matter. If a doctor > prescribes a medication that harms a patient, but the intention was only to help, > the action wasn't immoral. Even if the doctor should have known better, and > thus is civilly liable and might even lose his/her license due to > malpractice, the action, though faulty, was not immoral. > -------------------------------------------------- Well, I definitely understand your point, and I think it is generally true that intention is the decisive factor in making the "person's deed" wholesome or unwholesome, but that is from the person's own point of view. The question is whether there are some physical actions which cause positive or negative consequences and in doing so create kusala or akusala conditions. "Wholesomeness" is a slightly diffferent quantity than "morality." A certain kind of food can be wholesome, whereas a certain kind of food cannot be moral or immoral, but only the way the food can be used. So I think a lot rides on the clearly intentional aspect of the definition of akusala as "moral." I think "wholesome" involves a more generic range of qualities. So, for instance, in the case of someone being killed through carelessness, with no intention to kill, the act would still be akusala in my view, as killing causes suffering, harm, etc., even though there is not a terribly bad intention. To the degree that carelessness is akusala, the mental state would also be akusala, but the fact that killing takes place is still "unwholesome" even if it is not in that case "immoral." Likewise, if I were to forget to feed a baby and it starved to death, my view is that this negligence would be "unwholesome" and would have negative consequences, even if not negative kamma. The suffering caused for the child and all that loved the child is real suffering, and if an act causes direct suffering it is "unwholesome" in my view. Buddha went to the trouble of talking about acts that were meritorious in and of themselves, such as studying Dhamma, keeping good company, etc., and actions that were negative akusala acts, such as drinking alcohol, in and of themselves. Why would he go to the trouble of outlining groups of actions which he deemed to be unwholesome and have negative consequences, and vice versa, if he did not mean them to be inherently kusala or akusala? He could have said, as you say, that "there are no inherently kusala or akusala actions apart from the mental state or intention," but he did not say that at all. Instead he gave some pretty powerful lists of actions to avoid and actions to do diligently. In all cases, there are some differences and exceptions, such as taking a small amount of necessary alcohol to drink a medical preparation, or in the case of killing, of course accidental killing is not as bad as intentional killing and does not have the same kamma. I will say in your direction that Buddha is saying "do this," and "don't do this," which implies that they are intentional acts, not accidents. But he doesn't go on to say that the kusala or akusala quality of these acts varies with respect to different mental states while doing them. I don't think Buddha would ever say "it's fine to get inebriated regularly as long as you're in the right frame of mind and don't have bad intentions," or that "there is no problem with pornography as long as it is not viewed with thoughts of degradation or attachment." Buddha didn't make those distinctions based on the intention or mental state. He said: "charity - good! porn and liquor - bad!" "Hanging out with dice-throwers - bad! Hanging out with Dhamma buddies - good!" I do think you can make an akusala action worse by having a worse mental state. But I don't think you can make it kusala by having kusala thoughts while engaging in "bad behavior." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112658 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:08 pm Subject: Re: Nag Nag Nag epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > I'll give ya some time since it blows your mind that I show that Black Women equal White Men and that just throws your entire value structure out the window without the baby. Doesn't change my value structure at all. I see all people as being equal, including my cats. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #112659 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:30 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) & question for K. Sujin epsteinrob Hi Nina, Sarah and All. I have a question about what you say below, and I would also like to suggest it as a question for K. Sujin, if it is not too late. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > What I quote now (from what I wrote before) is all about Abhidhamma: > > know the world by way of conventional truth. It seems that there is > the world full of beings and things, but in reality there is citta > experiencing different dhammas arising and falling away very rapidly. > Only one object at a time can be cognized as it appears through one > doorway. Without the doorways of the senses and the mind the world > could not appear. So long as we take what appears as a ‘whole’, a > being or person, we do not know the world. If the above is the case, can one ask why or how these continual conditioned dhammas continue to arise for cittas? It may be one of the questions that cannot be answered, but why would this stream arise? I understand that once activated, through kamma and conditions it continues, but it seems strange that this "dream" of continuous perceptions and thoughts goes on and on. In addition, how is it that these dhammas appear to form up solid objects that continue in time and space beyond the moment? How is it that momentary cittas can contrive conceptual objects that appear to be real? The concepts must appear to exist through many succeeding moments in order to create the illusion of continuity and solidity. How is it possible that cittas can be conditioned to take the same concept for such a long period of time, which must involve many many cittas in a row? Thanks! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112660 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:40 pm Subject: Justice farrellkevin80 All, Why is liberation pleasing if the one who is liberated has no notion that anything pertains to a self and/or if he has gone beyond attachment and aversion? This friends is the flavor of liberation: Hi Robert. Oh OK. Thanks for the e-mail. I am glad you are enjoying your travels. :) This is something I was reflecting on and decided to commit to paper: True Justice Many times we can feel that there is injustice in the world. It appears in many diverse forms. Let me take a few small examples. Let's say you are in a Third World country where there is a lot of corruption. A police officer may pull you over, whether you have committed a traffic violation or not, and may ask you for money-- essentially extort you for it. Now this may only be a few dollars, but buy paying it you won't have to go to court and pay a higher fine, and he won't arrest you for any others crimes whether real or imagined. This may seem unjust and if we are on the receiving end we may truly feel that an unjust deed has been done to us since we were at the mery of the "police" and an injustice has been done. We may have a feeling that there is a lot of "injustice" in the world. Now of course the truth is that you only experienced that unpleasant experience because of kamma. It was the result of some kamma done in the past. Nevertheless, we feel that is unjust. The situation is also full of wrong views. For example, one may think it is happening to a person (you), which is just sakkaaya-ditthi, and one may not realize that it is just impermanent dhammas; there is just tons of proliferation. Nevertheless, we feel there is unjustice done. One of the things I am interested in is politics and I regularly listen to a talk show who's host is actually a Constitutional Lawyer. A young man who is a Republican Representative in a small town called in to ask for some advice. He said that he was the only Republican on the board in the town he represented and all the other reps were Democrats. He also said that the board had been playing tricks-- they were withholding information from him that he had a right to see when it came time to vote on things, and he is a representative of the people who elected him, so they are being unjust both towards him and the people that voted him in. The young man asked the talk show host for help. Now please understand that this isn't about whether you are a Republican or a Democrat or which party you like. The roles may have well been reversed. That's not the point. It is simply about the specific actions that occurred, not really about politics. Now the talk show host told the young man exactly what to do. He told him how to file a lawsuit against the board. He told him what Freedom of Information Acts give him the right to the information that had been denied to him, and, more specifically, which clauses therein gave him the right to it. He also told him how to contact the Board lawyer and file the lawsuit. I realized something interesting when I heard this. I realized that legally, when it came down to it, the young man was in the right and the others where in the wrong (regardless of party affiliations, of course). I also realized that by law, no matter what, the young man was right, and that if it came to a court of law, there would be no possible reasonable way to come to any other conclusion than the obvious one, which was to rule in favor of giving the information to him. When it comes down to it in this case, legally, there is one ultimate truth and things cannot go any other way justly. That is because it was a very clear-cut case. The young man had this law on his side. Granted, this law is impermanent. If the government dissolved, the law would no longer be in place or if the judge was corrupt, the young man would not have things go his way, but, nevertheless, the law was the law and justly this young man was protected by it. At this moment, the law stood, and the young man was protected by it. This is much like all of life. The truth is that we have much delusion. We think dhammas are self at times, we think they are permanent, we think they provide happiness. While our delusion may misconstrue things and misunderstand things, when it comes down to it in a "court of law" (universal law, that is)no matter what, even if we do not realize them to be so, all dhammas are anicca, anatta, and dukkha. They can never be any other way. It can never go any other way. At no time in history has any dhamma ever been self, nor will any dhamma ever be self (or happiness or permanent). They simply cannot be that way. Nothing and no one can overturn that. This is a fundamental law that is on "our" side, just as the Freedom of Information law was on the young politicians side in a very clear cut way. That is the definition of true justice. No dhamma can ever be self even if we don't realize it. That is true justice. There is true justice. ___________ With metta Kevin #112661 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) hantun1 Dear Robert (Sarah), > [Han] I supplement my meritorious deeds with the reading of Dhamma books, listening to the Dhamma tapes, and the reflection on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with prayer beads... > > [Robert] I just have a personal question that your report reminded me about. I find it difficult to maintain faith in the accumulation of merit. I understand that greater knowledge leading to liberation can come from Dhamma study, and I understand the positive effects of reaching greater development through meditation. I even understand that doing good works and maintaining good thoughts has positive benefits, but I find it difficult to understand how "merit," as a kind of quantity that is made greater and gives good results in the future, can exist as a real element. If you or anyone can say something about how merit works and how faith in meritorious action can be strengthened, I would appreciate it. I guess this goes with a belief in the effects of kamma as well, that a good or evil thought or action now will have consequences in future vipaka. I understand the concept but have a hard time fully subscribing to this, as it is difficult to observe in action. ---------- [Han] If you do not know a subject, it is easier to explain. But if you know it and yet if you have a hard time to fully subscribe to it, then it is difficult to convince you. The accumulation of merits and demerits is associated with Aaci.n.na kamma (habitual kamma), the deeds one habitually performs, either good or bad. This kamma is *accumulated* to give results at a later time. The accumulation of merits and demerits is also associated with Aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma. This type of kamma, which bears fruit in later lives, will, whenever and wherever there is an opportunity, be productive of kamma-result. Before its result has ripened, it will never become ineffective as long as the life-process is kept going by craving and ignorance. Han: Please note the statement [Before its result has ripened, it will never become ineffective as long as the life-process is kept going by craving and ignorance.]. This is so, because the kamma is *accumulated*, and it will ripen when there are conditions to ripen at a later date. But as I said, this explanation may not convince you. Kind regards, Han #112662 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) hantun1 Dear Robert,  Thank you very much. I will make a copy and give it to my grandson, Thet Oo. I am sure he will appreciate it, and I am sure it will benefit him if he follows your exercises.  With metta and respect, Han #112663 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:12 pm Subject: Released by Understanding! bhikkhu5 Friends: Mental Release comes by Understanding! The Blessed Buddha once explained the chain of causal events: Association with a Great Man completes hearing the True Dhamma.. Hearing the true Dhamma completes Faith , Confidence and Conviction.. Faith, confidence and conviction completes Rational Attention.. Rational attention completes Mindfulness and Clear Comprehension.. Mindfulness and clear comprehension completes Guarding the Senses .. Guarding the senses completes good mental, verbal and bodily Behaviour .. Good modes of action completes the Four Foundations of Awareness.. The 4 foundations of Awareness completes the 7 Links to Awakening.. The 7 links to Awakening completes Mental Release by Understanding ! <...> Source: The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikâya V 115 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112664 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends and dwelling place as natural decisive support condition philofillet Hi Nina > Why > should we change the names of the conditions? That would be confusing. Ph: Not wanting to change the name, just trying to understand what the "natural" means, and wondering whether it could correctly be replaced by "accumulated." Not for editing purposes, just to understand "natural" which I still don't understand in this context. To say "it comes batural to us" is fine, but what does that mean in the working of conditions? But really no problem! Metta, Phil #112665 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:22 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) philofillet Hi Robert E > I guess one question would be whether meditation supports perception of anicca and anatta or makes perception of anicca and anatta more difficult. The anti-meditation camp says that the intention to meditate, rather than the activity, is born from the delusion of a self that controls the development of samatha and sati, and thus every moment of meditating is filled with a false self-view of control. Ph: Personally, for me whatever meditation I do is related to tranquility, you might remember my story of the cleavage on the train. I find that the tranquility meditation I do, when I do it (two week holiday starting today, hope I do more) conditions a less responsive, less knee jerk responsive response to objects. There is less tendency to create fresh kamma in response to harsh or infatuating vipaka. For me that is valuable. Not an insight oriented meditator at this point, meditation supports sila for me, that's all... Sorry I didn't read the rest of the rumination. Sarah has already learned that I don't have the concentration to read more than about 10 or 20 lines of a post...though I can read books and god knows I can write more than 20 lines. I think I feel uncomfortable about being online and want to get done as quickly as possible... Metta, Phil p.s I am just about to post a comment to Nina that will adress your above comment in a way... #112666 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:37 am Subject: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? philofillet Hi Nina and all I was bemused by the following passage in Nina's book, "The Conditionality of Life." : "Knowledge of the Dhamma may be a natural decisive support condition for conceit or for wrong view, Someone may have studied the Dhamma but he may not consider nama and rupa appearing in daily life and have wrong understanding of the practice of vipassanaa. Or someone may have confidence in a teacher who practices in the wrong way and thus he may follow the wrong practice." This seems to me to be saying that "considering nama and rupa in daily life" is by some means naturally wholesome. I know from my personal experience that it is not possible for me to be told to consider nama and rupa in daily life without trying in a way that is akusala. Am I the only one who has experienced it in this way? In any case, I have known countless moments of trying to epxerience nama and rupa in daily life. You can say that knowing that thinking, thinking, thinking is itself knowing nama and rupa in daily life, and I won't be able to argue with that, but my impression is that students of A.S have conceit about the way they follow and fail to see that there is just as much wrong view in their desire to consider nama and rupa in daily life as there is in the meditators desire to observe a designated meditation subject.... I am just posting this as a kind of protest. THe book is great, but the editorializing implied in the above was a bit unfortunate, I think. I encourage students of A.S to ask themselves if there isn't a lot of subtle akusala involved in your desire to observe nama and rupa in daily life. I honestly don't see how that can be done without self at the center of it, subtly. Metta, Phil #112667 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:00 am Subject: Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Nina), Excuse my interrupting: ------------ Ph: > I was bemused by the following passage in Nina's book, "The Conditionality of Life." : "Knowledge of the Dhamma may be a natural decisive support condition for conceit or for wrong view, Someone may have studied the Dhamma but he may not consider nama and rupa appearing in daily life and have wrong understanding of the practice of vipassanaa. Or someone may have confidence in a teacher who practices in the wrong way and thus he may follow the wrong practice." This seems to me to be saying that "considering nama and rupa in daily life" is by some means naturally wholesome. ------------------------ As you say, it seems to you to be saying that. It isn't saying that at all. It only seems to you to be saying that. ------------------------------ Ph: > I know from my personal experience that it is not possible for me to be told to consider nama and rupa in daily life without trying in a way that is akusala. ------------------------------ We encourage each other to study the Abhidhamma, which is about the realities that are arising now. There is no suggestion of control over whether we do or don't study. And there is no suggestion of control over whether our study will be kusala or akusala. It's just something we do. ---------------------------------------- Ph: > Am I the only one who has experienced it in this way? In any case, I have known countless moments of trying to epxerience nama and rupa in daily life. ---------------------------------------- Experiences of nama and rupa are happening all the time. The notion of "trying" to experience them makes no sense. The notion of trying to experience them with right understanding makes even less sense. It is a contradiction in terms. ---------------------- Ph: > You can say that knowing that thinking, thinking, thinking is itself knowing nama and rupa in daily life, and I won't be able to argue with that, but my impression is that students of A.S have conceit about the way they follow and fail to see that there is just as much wrong view in their desire to consider nama and rupa in daily life as there is in the meditators desire to observe a designated meditation subject.... ---------------------- Aren't you just projecting your own wrong-understanding onto others? -------------------- Ph: > I am just posting this as a kind of protest. THe book is great, but the editorializing implied in the above was a bit unfortunate, I think. I encourage students of A.S to ask themselves if there isn't a lot of subtle akusala involved in your desire to observe nama and rupa in daily life. I honestly don't see how that can be done without self at the center of it, subtly. -------------------- One more time, just for the record: it is not about trying. It is just understanding that there are only dhammas - no self. Ken H #112668 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How can killiing or stealing not be conventional...? [& for K.... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - The word 'kusala' probably has multiple meanings. One of those is "useful," and that can pertain to an action independent of intention. I'll give you that! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112669 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:03 am Subject: Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? philofillet Hi Ken > One more time, just for the record: it is not about trying. It is just understanding that there are only dhammas - no self. OK, maybe it is as you say just my wrong understand or thick delusion, or whatever. But for me when I listened to A.S there was always this desire to try to be aware of realities in daily life, and that was just playing a game with satiapatthana for the sake of feeling connected to rarefied Dhamma. If it is not like that for you, that's good, you can ignore my comments easily. No worries. Metta Phil #112670 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:13 am Subject: Re: trivial pursuits epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo dsg-ers, > > Today I was browsing thro some of the older posts and the not so old. Without adding names or dates, here is some excerpts which arent really related to anything, however they made me smile: > > "I will lie low for a while, perhaps I will discover the secret joys of lurking" > > "And if he ever start patronising me I send him direct flight without stop to 'buddhist hell' - I am joking" > > "PS. so, do I get a chocolate? No, bec you're the one who got me into this messy question:)" > > "It seemed that all of Bangkok was wearing yellow for the year of the King's birthday---they all had a year off having to make dress decisions in the morning!" > > "not very Buddhist of you" > > "you cannot make the clear meanings of words a prisoner of your philosophy" > > Thanks folks, I'm sure some of you will recognise yrselves:) Thanks for the fun review! A very fitting roundup as the year comes to a close. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112671 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:19 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Robert > > > Don't worry on our behalf, Phil. Han and I only have these problems because of our evil deeds in the past. :-))) Now that we are experiencing only 100% kusala cittas, the results of this bad kamma will end very soon, and then we will be in perfect bliss. > > > Ph: Seriously, we take our unpleasant physical experiences as vipaka, we dry out the old kamma and don't produce new kamma. That is a good image, and good wish for the New Year. > I still very much like my image of the vipaka lightning rod, vipaka runs through us, into the ground, because ideally we are grounded and have resilience to objects. I like this too. > How to get grounded? Let's not go there.... Ok, let's go there. We meditate. I should do a lot more of it! I was complaining to someone that I had been experiencing a lot of resistance to both yoga and meditation during this period of my life. These days I am no longer a yoga teacher so I don't get my yoga "automatically" and since my daughter was born - 12 years ago - my personal practice has been more spotty. This person gave me what I think was a wise answer. He said "Since yoga and meditation are spiritual areas, rather than force them and get mad at the resistance, why not look into where the resistance is coming from?" I thought that was very smart, so now I am trying to chew over, contemplate or meditate on the resistance to meditation! And it's really interesting to just feel and look at the resistance, rather than resist resistance. I am sure this will drive my dsg friends crazy - that I am now meditating on meditation, but it seems like a really good sidetrack to me! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112672 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:28 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Robert (Sarah), > > > [Han] I supplement my meritorious deeds with the reading of Dhamma books, listening to the Dhamma tapes, and the reflection on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with prayer beads... > > > > [Robert] I just have a personal question that your report reminded me about. I find it difficult to maintain faith in the accumulation of merit. I understand that greater knowledge leading to liberation can come from Dhamma study, and I understand the positive effects of reaching greater development through meditation. I even understand that doing good works and maintaining good thoughts has positive benefits, but I find it difficult to understand how "merit," as a kind of quantity that is made greater and gives good results in the future, can exist as a real element. If you or anyone can say something about how merit works and how faith in meritorious action can be strengthened, I would appreciate it. I guess this goes with a belief in the effects of kamma as well, that a good or evil thought or action now will have consequences in future vipaka. I understand the concept but have a hard time fully subscribing to this, as it is difficult to observe > in action. > > ---------- > > [Han] If you do not know a subject, it is easier to explain. > But if you know it and yet if you have a hard time to fully subscribe to it, then it is difficult to convince you. > > The accumulation of merits and demerits is associated with Aaci.n.na kamma (habitual kamma), the deeds one habitually performs, either good or bad. This kamma is *accumulated* to give results at a later time. > > The accumulation of merits and demerits is also associated with Aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma. This type of kamma, which bears fruit in later lives, will, whenever and wherever there is an opportunity, be productive of kamma-result. Before its result has ripened, it will never become ineffective as long as the life-process is kept going by craving and ignorance. > > Han: Please note the statement [Before its result has ripened, it will never become ineffective as long as the life-process is kept going by craving and ignorance.]. This is so, because the kamma is *accumulated*, and it will ripen when there are conditions to ripen at a later date. > > But as I said, this explanation may not convince you. I do think this is helpful, and it occurs to me that maybe I don't know enough about how merit and kamma work. I will have to look into it some more and hopefully improve my understanding. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112673 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:00 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han philofillet Hi Rob > > Ph: Seriously, we take our unpleasant physical experiences as vipaka, we dry out the old kamma and don't produce new kamma. > > That is a good image, and good wish for the New Year. Ph: I'm very much a New Year's resolution type of guy. And it's true that the resolutions don't usually stick. But it is also true that there is progress in the direction of the resolutions. I no longer resolve not to have violently angry road rage type incidents, when I joined DSG around 6 years ago I was still prey to them. There will be more incidents. But this year (a week to go) there have been precisely zero. All the resolutions, all the regrets, all the desires to be a better person and - yes - all the understanding of the present moment, they have all worked together to lead to that. And it's something to be very grateful for. The violent anger has subsided in real ways, and the possibility or probability of the latent tendency arising again doesn't change that. Now let's see what I can do about the imbalanced sexual lust. This year did not bring much progress there - and I continued to use porn occasionally too - but there were no incidents of breaking the precept on illicit sex either. That is good! I think I will do a lot of meditation during the coming vacation. At some point next year I will ask you about yoga. I started recently, and when the session is near the end, and we stretch out and relax, the sensation of calm energy filling the body is similar to the sensation I have when a meditation session has led to the state I hoped for. I think the meditation I do is closer to yoga anyways. Well, maybe next year. I'm going to sign off now and stay off the internet for a couple of weeks. Haha. Well, maybe I will. Resolutions add up and play out in unexpected ways, all my resolutions to be on the internet less often will eventually lead me there, I feel. I don't give up easily on my intentions, but I also don't expect them to be fulfilled over night. Happy holidays to all, see you again in 2011. Metta, Phil #112674 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, all, Robert: "Since yoga and meditation are spiritual areas, rather than force them and get mad at the resistance, why not look into where the resistance is coming from?" I thought that was very smart, so now I am trying to chew over, contemplate or meditate on the resistance to meditation! And it's really interesting to just feel and look at the resistance, rather than resist resistance. I am sure this will drive my dsg friends crazy - that I am now meditating on meditation, but it seems like a really good sidetrack to me! Me: I read this post with interest. One thing I would like to say. Whether you meditate or don't meditate cittas and cetasikas are arising and falling away no matter what. Right now they are. This concept of taking meditation as the path is just that: a concept, a delusion, a dream, a "world" invented and experienced by many cetasikas such as moha, and sanna, and many other of course. Even now, all dhammas are impermanent, whether you meditate or not. If you read the post I wrote today titled "Justice" you will see that panna on the conceptual level arose in me, panna that made a direct correlation between all dhammas and a law suit, you should take note that this happened not in some temple, or spiritual place, or during any session of meditation, but while being impassioned by emotions listening to an impassioned talk show about nothing other than politics and being focused on nothing other than that. Right now dhammas arise and fall. Right now, every moment. They are all anatta, anicca, and dukkha, but I am sure you have heard this before. Kevin #112675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 21-dec-2010, om 8:37 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > If you read the post > I wrote today titled "Justice" you will see that panna on the > conceptual level > arose in me, panna that made a direct correlation between all > dhammas and a law > suit, you should take note that this happened not in some temple, > or spiritual > place, or during any session of meditation, but while being > impassioned by > emotions listening to an impassioned talk show about nothing other > than politics > and being focused on nothing other than that. Right now dhammas > arise and > fall. Right now, every moment. They are all anatta, anicca, and > dukkha, but I > am sure you have heard this before. ------- N: Thank you for the reminder. I also am very interested in politics and when following it in the news I get quite caught up. I feel strongly about unjust measures being taken. After all: only dhammas and we cannot hear this enough. At the same time we do not have to reject our interest in politics, it is natural, it is our accumulated inclination. Nina. #112676 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 21-dec-2010, om 7:28 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I find it difficult to understand how "merit," as a kind of > quantity that is made greater and gives good results in the future, > can exist as a real element. If you or anyone can say something > about how merit works and how faith in meritorious action can be > strengthened, I would appreciate it. I guess this goes with a > belief in the effects of kamma as well, that a good or evil thought > or action now will have consequences in future vipaka. -------- N: If you think of the benefit of kusala things will become clearer. Merit is not such a good translation of kusala, it leads to misunderstandings. Kusala acts will bring happy results in the form of vipaaka, that is just a kind of law of cause and effect. But this is not all. Kusala will lead to more kusala later on, since it is accumulated. Kusala is purer when we do not wish for a good result for ourselves. It leads to having less defilements. It can be a perfection being a condition for pa~n~naa that eradicates defilements. I quote from Kh Sujin's book on the Perfections: I forgot whether you have this book. If not I can send it to you. (But because we are snowed in we cannot reach the post office now. We can do a little shopping afoot with back packs). Nina. #112677 From: SARAH CONNELL Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) dhammasanna Dear Robert, Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) & question for K. Sujin nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 20-dec-2010, om 21:30 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Only one object at a time can be cognized as it appears through one > > doorway. Without the doorways of the senses and the mind the world > > could not appear. So long as we take what appears as a 'whole', a > > being or person, we do not know the world. > > If the above is the case, can one ask why or how these continual > conditioned dhammas continue to arise for cittas? It may be one of > the questions that cannot be answered, but why would this stream > arise? I understand that once activated, through kamma and > conditions it continues, but it seems strange that this "dream" of > continuous perceptions and thoughts goes on and on. --------- N: At the moment of rebirth-consciousness, that is the result of kamma, there is no object impinging on the sense-doors or the mind- door, and the rebirth-consciousness experiences an object that is the same as that experienced during the last javanacittas of the previous life. Then the rebirth-consciousness is followed by bhavanga-citta that experiences the same object. But we were not born only to have bhavangacittas. Kammas produce also in the course of life different vipaakacittas experiencing different objects, some pleasant, some unpleasant. Thus kamma produces the vipaakacittas that experience objects, different ruupas. You may wonder about the conditions for the objects themselves. Ruupa is originated by four causes: kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. Thus there are several conditions at work. These ruupas are also experienced through the mind-door, and besides, naamas, such as mettaa or anger, are experienced through the mind- door and also concepts. ------- > > R: In addition, how is it that these dhammas appear to form up > solid objects that continue in time and space beyond the moment? ------ N: Ruupa that is 'concrete matter' only lasts for seventeen moments of citta. It does not continue. It is not as solid as you would think. Just fleeting. -------- > R: How is it that momentary cittas can contrive conceptual objects > that appear to be real? The concepts must appear to exist through > many succeeding moments in order to create the illusion of > continuity and solidity. ------ N: When they appear to be real, to exist, they are objects of thinking with wrong view. But there is not wrong view all the time when a concept is the object of thinking. Even the Buddha thought of concepts like different persons. ------- R: How is it possible that cittas can be conditioned to take the same concept for such a long period of time, which must involve many many cittas in a row? ------- N: Cittas arising in a mind-door process can think of a concept, and there can be many mind-door processes with cittas thinking of a concept, with bhavangacittas in between. A mind-door process consists of one moment of mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is kiriyacitta and then followed by javanacittas that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas, for non-arahats. Usually we think with akusala cittas of concepts, that is when we are not intent on daana, siila or mental development. ------- Nina. #112679 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? nilovg Dear Philip and Ken H, Op 21-dec-2010, om 5:00 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > Philip: I was bemused by the following passage in Nina's book, > "The Conditionality of Life." : "Knowledge of the Dhamma may be a > natural decisive support condition for conceit or for wrong view, > Someone may have studied the Dhamma but he may not consider nama > and rupa appearing in daily life and have wrong understanding of > the practice of vipassanaa. Or someone may have confidence in a > teacher who practices in the wrong way and thus he may follow the > wrong practice." > > This seems to me to be saying that "considering nama and rupa in > daily life" is by some means naturally wholesome. ------- N: I wrote: < he may not consider nama and rupa appearing in daily life and have wrong understanding of the practice of vipassanaa.> One may study books, have knowledge of the Dhamma, but not apply what he learnt in daily life. Inspite of his knowledge of texts he may not know that the practice of vipassanaa is just being aware and develop understanding of whatever naama or ruupa appears in daily life. That is what I meant. --------- Ken H so appropriately added: Ken H: One more time, just for the record: it is not about trying. It is just understanding that there are only dhammas - no self. --------- Nina. #112680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-dec-2010, om 19:07 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > N:As to your example of concentration in Samatha, here nimitta > refers to a meditation subject. > L: Yes, so in this case nimitta is like the wood for fire. It seems > to me that it is neccessery for concentration. Like an image there > that is prevailing, so that we can concentrate. -------- N: It is more detailed. When a kasina is the subject you have to look at it and concentrate with kusala citta accompanied by understanding of the way how to develop calm that is temporary freedom from the hindrances. The aim of samatha is being away from sense objects and the defilements arising on account of them. There must be a keen understanding of what is kusala citta and when it arises. After a while one need not look at the kasina but a mental image appears. That is the nimitta in samatha. First it is the 'learning sign' and when there is more progress jhaanacitta arises that is totally absorbed in this nimitta. -------- > L:By the way I like the name the objects, for meditation subjects. > This helps me to keep in mind that there are only different objects > of meditation changing constanly, due to conditions. No Self just > changing objects of meditation. > What's the name in pali for the meditation subjects? How many > meditation subjects there is? -------- See the contents of the Visuddhimagga: kasinas, brahma vihaaras, recollections, etc. It depends on the accumulated inclinations what is chosen. ------- > L: Second meaning: We also read in the suttas about being taken in by > > the "sign" of the outward appearance and details of things when > there > > is no awareness of one reality. > > L: In Visudhimagga(?) there is story about Thera who was taken in > by the woman appeariance. Minor and major characteristic. And then > get enlightened seeing asubha. What's the minor characteristic? ------ N: This must be: the outward appearance of things and the details, anuvya~njana. The latter is perhaps translated as minor characteristics? This aspect is very important, it happens all the time when looking at persons and taking them for really existing. There is forgetfulness of realities that appear one at a time. ------- > L:>Another meaning of nimitta. > the meaning of sa"nkhaara nimitta, nimitta > > of ruupakkhandha, of vedanaakkhandha, etc. of all five khandhas, > > thus, of all conditioned realities. THis is mentioned in the > "Path of > > Discrimination" and commentaries. > L: So there are three meanings of nimitta: > 1) Nimitta as a sign that is necessery for practising concentration > described as meditation subject. ------- N: It is a little different from what you say, see above. -------- > 2) Nimitta as a hindrance, minor and major characterisctics of > things, that takes us all in. ------ N: Need not be a hindrance if there is correct understanding and we are not taken in by it. -------- > L: > 3) Nimitta as a sign that all realities have. So that only shadow > of realities remains. ------- > N: Only condiitoned realities, not nibbaana which is animitta. ------ > L:P.s > If anyone have any quotations on nimitta from suttas, vinaya, > abhidhamma or comentaries please quote. ------ N: Patisambhidaamagga and different commentaries, I cannot look them up now. ------ Nina. #112681 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. > N: I wrote: < he may not consider nama and rupa appearing in daily > life and have wrong understanding of the practice of vipassanaa.> >One > may study books, have knowledge of the Dhamma, but not apply what he > learnt in daily life. Inspite of his knowledge of texts he may not > know that the practice of vipassanaa is just being aware and develop > understanding of whatever naama or ruupa appears in daily life. > That is what I meant. So there is application of what one has learned in daily life. The path doesn't end with only reading books. With metta, Alex #112682 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, all, Robert: "Since yoga and meditation are spiritual areas, rather than force them and get mad at the resistance, why not look into where the resistance is coming from?" I thought that was very smart, so now I am trying to chew over, contemplate or meditate on the resistance to meditation! And it's really interesting to just feel and look at the resistance, rather than resist resistance. I am sure this will drive my dsg friends crazy - that I am now meditating on meditation, but it seems like a really good sidetrack to me! Me: I read this post with interest. One thing I would like to say. Whether you meditate or don't meditate cittas and cetasikas are arising and falling away no matter what. Right now they are. This concept of taking meditation as the path is just that: a concept, a delusion, a dream, a "world" invented and experienced by many cetasikas such as moha, and sanna, and many other of course. Even now, all dhammas are impermanent, whether you meditate or not. If you read the post I wrote today titled "Justice" you will see that panna on the conceptual level arose in me, panna that made a direct correlation between all dhammas and a law suit, you should take note that this happened not in some temple, or spiritual place, or during any session of meditation, but while being impassioned by emotions listening to an impassioned talk show about nothing other than politics and being focused on nothing other than that. Right now dhammas arise and fall. Right now, every moment. They are all anatta, anicca, and dukkha, but I am sure you have heard this before. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin #112683 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:41 pm Subject: Experiencing the Breath! bhikkhu5 Friends: Special Experiences might cure illness instantly! Once when Venerable Girimananda was sick, the Buddha said to Ven. Ä€nanda. What is the experience of acute Awareness by in-&-out Breathing? It is when a Bhikkhu, who have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, sits down cross-legged, having straightened his body and back, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plain aware of only that itself, he breathes in, and then just solely aware of only that breathing in itself, he then breathes out... 1: Breathing in-&-out long, he knows, notes & understands: I in-&-exhale long! 2: Breathing in short, he knows, notes & understands: I in-&-exhale short! 3: He trains thus: Experiencing this entire body, I will breathe in-&out! 4: He trains thus: Calming all bodily activity, I will breathe in-&out! 5: He trains thus: Experiencing enraptured joy, I will breathe in-&out! 6: He trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will breathe in-&out! 7: He trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will breathe in-&out! 8: He trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will breathe in-&out! 9: He trains thus: Experiencing the present mood, I will breathe in-&out! 10: He trains thus: Elating & gladdening the mind, I will breathe in-&out! 11: He trains thus: Concentrating & focusing mind, I will breathe in-&out! 12: He trains thus: Releasing, & liberating the mind, I will breathe in-&out! 13: He trains thus: Considering impermanence, I will breathe in-&out! 14: He trains thus: Considering disillusion, I will breathe in-&out! 15: He trains thus: Considering ceasing, I will breathe in-&out! 16: He trains thus: Considering relinquishment, I will breathe in-&out! Having learnt and memorized these 16 simple steps from the Blessed One, the Venerable Ä€nanda went to the Venerable Girimananda and recited these to him. Then as soon as Venerable Girimananda heard these 16 simple steps & the ten experiences his illness instantly subsided & he rose from his bed! This was thus the way Venerable Girimananda was cured from his sickness.... <...> Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara NikÄya AN 10:60, V 108ff. http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <....> #112684 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han farrellkevin80 Hi Nina: Nina: Thank you for the reminder. I also am very interested in politics and when following it in the news I get quite caught up. I feel strongly about unjust measures being taken. After all: only dhammas and we cannot hear this enough. At the same time we do not have to reject our interest in politics, it is natural, it is our accumulated inclination. Me: I agree Nina. Thank you for the message. Anytime, anywhere, panna can arise, and so can other wholesome cetasikas. When you look at proliferation, it is almost as if there are various layers, layered one upon another. For example, if we think we should go some place and meditate, there are concepts about an individual, concepts about attaining at some future time, concepts about doing it in some place, doing some actions. It missed the dhammas that are here now. Hope you are well. Thanks for the message. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin #112685 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:38 pm Subject: Re: trivial pursuits gazita2002 hallo Rob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Azita. > > Thanks for the fun review! A very fitting roundup as the year comes to a close. > you're welcome. It was kinda fun doing it:) Patience,courage and good cheer, azita #112686 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han farrellkevin80 Hi Nina: Nina: Thank you for the reminder. I also am very interested in politics and when following it in the news I get quite caught up. I feel strongly about unjust measures being taken. After all: only dhammas and we cannot hear this enough. At the same time we do not have to reject our interest in politics, it is natural, it is our accumulated inclination. Me: I agree Nina. Thank you for the message. Anytime, anywhere, panna can arise, and so can other wholesome cetasikas. When you look at proliferation, it is almost as if there are various layers, layered one upon another. For example, if we think we should go some place and meditate, there are concepts about an individual, concepts about attaining at some future time, concepts about doing it in some place, doing some actions. It missed the dhammas that are here now. Hope you are well. Thanks for the message. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin #112687 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:45 am Subject: Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? philofillet Hi Nina > Inspite of his knowledge of texts he may not > know that the practice of vipassanaa is just being aware and develop > understanding of whatever naama or ruupa appears in daily life. > That is what I meant. Ph: I see. That makes sense. > Ken H so appropriately added: > > Ken H: One more time, just for the record: it is not about trying. It > is just understanding that there are only dhammas - no self. Ph: Well, you see Nina, I feel there is too great a gap between the facility with which Ken and others say "there are only dhammas" and the degree to which their understanding actually understands this. Kevin F also posted a very nice description to Rob E of how whatever one does, there are only nama and rupa, so why cling to concepts about meditating, etc. But does he know there are only nama and rupa? No, of course not, I doubt any of us here do. My constant contention is that when there is such a huge gap between the deep proclamation "there are only namas and rupas" and one's actual understanding, any insistence that it is just pariyatthi that is establishing groundword for deeper understanding is blown away by the power of one's desire for results, for comfort, for the good feeling of feeling close to deep Dhamma. So making facile comments like "there are only nama and rupa" is comfortable enough, and pleasant enough to dwell on when one feels oneself so deeply close to the liberating truth, but is the understanding truly there? I doubt it. How does that understanding develop? By listening to people say "there are only nama and rupa" and reflecting patiently on that fact, by considering nama and rupa in daily life *without* somehow grasping with lobha for understanding them? Perhaps. It seems to me that unless we have conditions to practice meditation as taught by the Buddha, we should leave aspirations to deep panna aside, I know I have. But I don't know. I like to read your book on the conditions and know that that is how ones of great understanding know the world, but it is not my understanding. My understanding is Phil doing this, Phil doing that, Phil feeling this, Phil perceiving that. That won't change any day soon. But I won't accept that there is not a place in the Buddha's teaching for one such as me, for I know that the Buddha didn't teach "there is only nama and rupa" to people whose understanding was not ready. Ken H does, willingly, and you do, and others do, but the Buddha didn't. Plain and simple. The Buddha did *not* teaching there is only nama and rupa to those whose understanding was not prepared to hear it, that is explicitly taught in the suttanta, and I know you know it, because you have conceded so as well in a post a month or two back. Ken H on the other hand apparently doesn't know it yet, maybe you can help him, and perhaps you can help others, your knowledge of Dhamma is as broad as it is deep... In any case, I don't feel left out of the Buddha's teaching because I know my refusal to try to stretch my understanding where it is not ready to go is in line with His teaching. Still, thank you for your excellent book, and happy holidays to you and Lodewijk. That was a final rant for 2010! I doubt I will feel any differently about this point in 2011, but who knows.... Metta, Phil #112688 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? farrellkevin80 "2011"? Before 2011 comes there will be billions of cittas in your mind stream, billions. They will only be real when they arise. When they fall away they are gone. Have a little samvega. Penetrate to the Buddha's Teachings now. Do you think what arises now isn't anicca, anatta, and dukkha? Do you think it will only be anicca, anatta, and dukkha when you go on retreat or whatever? Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Walshe DN. 33.2.3(5) 'Seven right practices (saddhammaa): Here, a monk has faith, moral shame and dread, has much learning, has aroused vigour (aaraddha-viriyo), has established mindfulness (upa.t.thita-sati hoti), possesses wisdom. ________________________________ From: philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 12:45:41 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? Hi Nina > Inspite of his knowledge of texts he may not > know that the practice of vipassanaa is just being aware and develop > understanding of whatever naama or ruupa appears in daily life. > That is what I meant. Ph: I see. That makes sense. > Ken H so appropriately added: > > Ken H: One more time, just for the record: it is not about trying. It > is just understanding that there are only dhammas - no self. Ph: Well, you see Nina, I feel there is too great a gap between the facility with which Ken and others say "there are only dhammas" and the degree to which their understanding actually understands this. Kevin F also posted a very nice description to Rob E of how whatever one does, there are only nama and rupa, so why cling to concepts about meditating, etc. But does he know there are only nama and rupa? No, of course not, I doubt any of us here do. My constant contention is that when there is such a huge gap between the deep proclamation "there are only namas and rupas" and one's actual understanding, any insistence that it is just pariyatthi that is establishing groundword for deeper understanding is blown away by the power of one's desire for results, for comfort, for the good feeling of feeling close to deep Dhamma. So making facile comments like "there are only nama and rupa" is comfortable enough, and pleasant enough to dwell on when one feels oneself so deeply close to the liberating truth, but is the understanding truly there? I doubt it. How does that understanding develop? By listening to people say "there are only nama and rupa" and reflecting patiently on that fact, by considering nama and rupa in daily life *without* somehow grasping with lobha for understanding them? Perhaps. It seems to me that unless we have conditions to practice meditation as taught by the Buddha, we should leave aspirations to deep panna aside, I know I have. But I don't know. I like to read your book on the conditions and know that that is how ones of great understanding know the world, but it is not my understanding. My understanding is Phil doing this, Phil doing that, Phil feeling this, Phil perceiving that. That won't change any day soon. But I won't accept that there is not a place in the Buddha's teaching for one such as me, for I know that the Buddha didn't teach "there is only nama and rupa" to people whose understanding was not ready. Ken H does, willingly, and you do, and others do, but the Buddha didn't. Plain and simple. The Buddha did *not* teaching there is only nama and rupa to those whose understanding was not prepared to hear it, that is explicitly taught in the suttanta, and I know you know it, because you have conceded so as well in a post a month or two back. Ken H on the other hand apparently doesn't know it yet, maybe you can help him, and perhaps you can help others, your knowledge of Dhamma is as broad as it is deep... In any case, I don't feel left out of the Buddha's teaching because I know my refusal to try to stretch my understanding where it is not ready to go is in line with His teaching. Still, thank you for your excellent book, and happy holidays to you and Lodewijk. That was a final rant for 2010! I doubt I will feel any differently about this point in 2011, but who knows.... Metta, Phil #112689 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:44 am Subject: Questions About SN 25.2 upasaka_howard Hi, all (and especially Nina) - I find the following short sutta of interest in a few ways: ___________________________________________ SN 25.2 PTS: _S iii 225_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/SN_III_utf8.html#pts.225) CDB i 1004 Rupa Sutta: Forms translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu _© 2004–2010_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.002.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) At Savatthi. "Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable. "One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." ____________________________________________ As an aside, the title given for the sutta is misleading, for the sutta pertains to all conditioned phenomena, not just rupas. More importantly, I note the following asserted in this sutta, and I add a few questions with regard to it: 1) One who has conviction & belief that all conditioned phenomena are "inconstant, changeable, alterable," is called a "faith-follower," is no longer "run-of-the-mill," and will not die until attaining stream-entry. [Does this make such a person a so called "lesser stream-entrant"? Also, what is the Pali and the correct translation for what is rendered here as "inconstant, changeable, alterable"?] 2) The same is then said of one who "after pondering with a modicum of discernment" this same nature of conditioned phenomena is called a "Dhamma-follower" and the same fate is in store for him/her as is predicted above for a faith-follower. [How does such a one differ from a faith-follower?] 3) One who knows & sees this same nature of conditioned phenomena is a stream enterer. [Why in all three cases is only the lakkhana of impermanence dealt with?] With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112690 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (4) sarahprocter... Dear Robert E & Friends, Yesterday we had a lovely day-trip to Ayutthaya where our friend has a house. We travelled by van with your pen-pal Sukin and a few other friends. At our friend's house we had dhamma discussions with K.Sujin with a very leisurely and declicious Thai lunch by the river near the ruins of the old capital of Thailand. 1. Rob E's qu on killing #112619 which he asked to bring to KS's attention. KS: "Instead of tlking about situations, what about cittas, one at a time?" Rob "...do we need to be concerned with the fruits of physical actions....?" KS: "Do WE need to be..?" She then stressed the importance of more understanding of reality, not questions about situations. 2. Rob E's qus #112659 on one citta through one doorway. Why the streams, the dreams, the continuous perceptions etc: KS: "Because they are dhammas!" Each dhamma conditions the next dahmma instantly. This is the nature of such dhammas. On and on. Samsara is dhamma as well. >R:In addition, how is it that these dhammas appear to form up solid objects that continue in time and space beyond the moment? How is it that momentary cittas can contrive conceptual objects that appear to be real? The concepts must appear to exist through many succeeding moments in order to create the illusion of continuity and solidity. How is it possible that cittas can be conditioned to take the same concept for such a long period of time, which must involve many many cittas in a row? .... S: On time and space, KS commented "what do you mean - time and space? Thinking". How come there appears to be many (experiences) together? It's not understanding of any reality. Because of past experience and accumulations, we think in such ways. There's no need to count cittas and it's true there is an illusion of continuity and solidity. We begin to understand what is meant by pannatti (concepts). Rob asked how is it possible that cittas can be conditioned to take concepts for a long time. KS: "not long at all!". Visible objects appears and is followed by thinking all the time, this is why it's always mentioned first of the sense-doorways. (maybe more later - my notes are so cryptic and my memory's even more cryptic -I'm packing to leave as I write and that may have something to do with it:-) May be Jon or Sukin will add more. Metta Sarah ======= #112691 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (5) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A few other notes from our day out yesterday: 1. Samvegga, a sense of urgency - no need to define it! Now, there is right effort when there is right understanding. Otherwise we're moved again by the name. The subtlety of attachment, such as when we try to define terms leading to vitakka and vitakka, more and more thinking. See upanissaya gocara below. Even kusala - we cling to it as "me" - so long to understand reality as not self. Being aware of reality - no names. Qu about 4 right efforts, 4 sammapadhaanas - names again, self is there! At moment of understanding, no words. When self tries so hard, no way to develop panna. 2. Science and dhamma and jellyfish in particular - ask Sukin! When some understanding dhamma - can be a great scientist or anything else. But being a scientist won't lead to an understanding of dhammas. 3. Vitakka - each moment touching an object. Without memory, no vitakka. After seeing, vitakka immediately. More understanding leading to detachment from sense objects. Some people think KS stresses too much on seeing and visible object etc, but without seeing now, no thinking, no dreams and illusions. Visible object appears, followed by thinking all the time. When we see the value in understanding, there is patience to understand better and better. If one understands seeing perfectly and directly, one understands it by pay of paticca samuppada, ayatana, ariya sacca, dhatu, khandha etc. So instead of discussing concepts about paticca samuppada etc, what about understanding a reality, such as seeing now? 4a. A little more on posure and vikaara rupas. I pointed out that these were asabhava rupas, subtle rupas without sabhava, so it's just an illusion when people think they are aware of them. Each rupa has 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. That dhamma which is impermanent is dukkha. Nothing to do with changing postures. How could those who have studied a lot of Abhidhamma miss this point? Because they study the 3 kinds of dukkha, the characteristics and so on by words. "No awareness of reality". We need to clarify and clarify in order to have less attachment and more detachment. 4b. If we become disturbed or distressed, useless - self again. More on the anusaya of wrong view etc conditioning attachment and aversion now. Wisdom which eradicates anusayas such as clinging to the idea of self, by understanding reality now such as understanding of the attachment to visible object. If no panna, self tries so much. When right understanding grows, can follow any reality anytime, any place. The measuring of the growth of understanding can only by the present understanding of reality. Concerns about future development and so on all revolve around an idea of Self. "Take it easy!" Depends on panna to arise. Self is not easy about thinking about oneself, one's next life and so on. If there is clinging to the idea of "I", it hinders the progress of panna. ***** to be contd metta Sarah =========== #112692 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (6) sarahprocter... Dear Friends 5. Saddha (confidence). There may be saddha in kusala, but people may not know anything about the Teachings even though they are "Buddhist" and visit the Foundation or a temple! 6. More nimitta discussion. Concepts because of nimittas. Nimitta hinders understanding. Nimittas because cittas arise and fall away so quickly now. Sankhara nimitta - whatever has appeared to mind door after sense door. We know very little about the world, covered up by avijja and attachment. 7. 3 kinds of gocara. Revision time: . 3 gocara (objects for understanding) - a) upanissaya gocara: listening, after hearing, accumulates by upanissaya, to change from akusala, conditions for kusala, until strong and the moment of understanding reality. Sankhara khandha for awareness to arise. This was mentioned in reference to Rob's qu as I recall. b) aaraka gocara: awareness, not yet satipatthana, protecting (samvara) from akusala, preventing wrong view arising when more and more understanding. c) upanipanda (sp?) gocara: direct understanding of reality now. Doesn't let go of reality. [Gocara refers to the object of citta and these stages refer to a better and better understanding of what one has heard or read. The Teachings are about the objects of understanding. See Psm transl p.232] 8. I mentioned discussing dhamma the other day with a friend who hadn't liked it, but afterwards not being distressed at all, because I knew I'd done my best. Much the same here. In the old days I'd have likely been distressed that a guest was distressed. KS talked about helping others without expectations and this being the meaning of satipatthana - just understanding and accepting whatever is conditioned. 9. "To live for panna to appear". I'd asked last time where I could find this in the texts and KS had kindly kept a note for me. It's from the comy to the MahaNidesa (comy to Sn), Sariputta Nidesa 16th. The term is "viputavihari" - whatever panna appear, living for- Maybe Han, Scott or someone else can help find it. Just as the only benefit now is to understand realities, so this was so in the past and so the only benefit of tomorrow will be for understanding to develop. If it is kusala, but not understanding, it's of no benefit. Live with panna. Thinking wisely about realities? Better than thinking of other things - leading to more confidence in anatta. Otherwise citta dancing with lobha and dosa all day!! *** Metta Sarah p.s Again, apologies for delays in replies to Han's and all the other messages. No one's being ignored :-)) =========== #112694 From: A T Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: Questions About SN 25.2 truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >1) One who has conviction & belief that all conditioned phenomena are >"inconstant, changeable, alterable," is called a "faith-follower," is no >longer "run-of-the-mill," and will not die until attaining stream-entry. >[Does >this make such a person a so called "lesser stream-entrant"? >Also, what is the Pali and the correct translation for what is rendered >here as "inconstant, changeable, alterable"?] aniccÄ viparinÄmino aññathÄbhÄvino Lesser stream-entrant is called as saddhÄnusÄrÄ« (faith follower) or dhammÄnusÄrÄ« (dhamma follower). The difference between two types is in predominance of faculties. One has faith predominant, another by intellectual understanding. >[Why in all three cases is only the lakkhana of impermanence >dealt with?] Because it is enough IF taken far enough to remove all clinging and bring Arahatship. Other 2 characteristics are also derivatives of anicca. IMHO, there is no magic formula of "you have to know 100 pages of super deep teachings, pass Dhamma exams and be a Scholar to become Awakened. If you don't know even one small aspect, then forget about Awakening". Rather whatever it takes to remove ALL clinging, that is what is required. IMHO. With metta, Alex #112695 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (4) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 22-dec-2010, om 13:55 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > 1. Rob E's qu on killing #112619 which he asked to bring to KS's > attention. > > KS: "Instead of tlking about situations, what about cittas, one at > a time?" > > Rob "...do we need to be concerned with the fruits of physical > actions....?" > > KS: "Do WE need to be..?" > She then stressed the importance of more understanding of reality, > not questions about situations. -------- N: This in itself is worth considering, not only for Rob, but for all of us. When we have doubts or are wondering about something, is it not mostly concerning stories and situations? Or even in the case of some problem in life we have such as loss of dear ones, death, sickness, Kh Sujin will always stress: what about cittas, one at a time? If the citta of this moment, even the moment we worry, is investigated, we are nearer to the solution of such or such problem. ------ Nina. #112696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (6) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 22-dec-2010, om 14:56 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > 3 gocara (objects for understanding) - > > a) upanissaya gocara: listening, after hearing, accumulates by > upanissaya, to > change from akusala, conditions for kusala, until strong and the > moment of > understanding reality. Sankhara khandha for awareness to arise. > This was mentioned in reference to Rob's qu as I recall. > > b) aaraka gocara: awareness, not yet satipatthana, protecting > (samvara) from > akusala, preventing wrong view arising when more and more > understanding. > > c) upanipanda (sp?) gocara: direct understanding of reality now. > Doesn't let go > of reality. > > [Gocara refers to the object of citta and these stages refer to a > better and > better understanding of what one has heard or read. The Teachings > are about the > objects of understanding. See Psm transl p.232] --------- N: I could not find this on p. 232. I think Kh Sujin mentioned the three when we were in the car in K.K. and I scribbled it down. ------- S: KS talked about helping others without expectations and this being the meaning of satipatthana - just understanding and accepting whatever is conditioned. ------- N: Yes, the third meaning of satipa.t.thaana, following the way the Buddha and Great Disciples went. It is explained in the co: When the listeners want to listen, the Buddha has equanimity, and when they do not want to listen, the Buddha has also equanimity. Not being happy nor unhappy about others' reactions. -------- S: 9. "To live for panna to appear". I'd asked last time where I could find this in the texts and KS had kindly kept a note for me. It's from the comy to the MahaNidesa (comy to Sn), Sariputta Nidesa 16th. The term is "viputavihari" - whatever panna appear, living for ------ N: I have it in Thai and can find the Saariputta Niddesa, but next time could Acharn give the section or page? It is very long and I do not know where to look. It is a very interesting Niddesa. I could translate the section. Viputa may be in our dict. vibhuuta vihaari, vibhuuta is clear, distinct. It is about ways of teaching. ------- Nina. > #112697 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why is considering nama and rupa in daily life necessarily kusala? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 22-dec-2010, om 6:45 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ken H: One more time, just for the record: it is not about trying. It > > is just understanding that there are only dhammas - no self. > > Ph: Well, you see Nina, I feel there is too great a gap between the > facility with which Ken and others say "there are only dhammas" and > the degree to which their understanding actually understands this. > Kevin F also posted a very nice description to Rob E of how > whatever one does, there are only nama and rupa, so why cling to > concepts about meditating, etc. But does he know there are only > nama and rupa? ------ N: I appreciate all these reminders from Ken, Kevin and others. We do not mind about other people's understanding, but when there are good reminders we take them to heart. Do not think of persons, think of Dhamma. ------- > Ph: My constant contention is that when there is such a huge gap > between the deep proclamation "there are only namas and rupas" and > one's actual understanding, any insistence that it is just > pariyatthi that is establishing groundword for deeper understanding > is blown away by the power of one's desire for results, for > comfort, for the good feeling of feeling close to deep Dhamma. ------- N: I notice that you take these things very much to heart, because you often come back to clinging to comfort one may feel because of understanding. This morning I thought of you when reading to Lodewijk from the Perfections, about Renunciation: < One should have an unshakable determination to develop paññå in order to completely eradicate clinging to sense objects. This has to begin by listening and considering the Dhamma so that one first sees the benefit of the practice. One should realize that renunciation means happiness and that this kind of happiness is without a self who seeks enjoyment. We should understand that detachment from the sense objects leads to the highest calm and wellbeing. > Thus, not seeking happiness for oneself. The perfections do not have as aim a benefit for oneself, that is why it is important to develop them together with understanding. One begins to see the danger of akusala. --------- > Ph: So making facile comments like "there are only nama and rupa" > is comfortable enough, and pleasant enough to dwell on when one > feels oneself so deeply close to the liberating truth, but is the > understanding truly there?..... The Buddha did *not* teaching > there is only nama and rupa to those whose understanding was not > prepared to hear it, .. > In any case, I don't feel left out of the Buddha's teaching because > I know my refusal to try to stretch my understanding where it is > not ready to go is in line with His teaching. ... > Still, thank you for your excellent book, and happy holidays to you > and Lodewijk. ------- N: Nobody should force himself. Kh Sujin also said once that there should be contentment with what one has understood already, not wishing for more than one can grasp. No problem! Also our best wishes for you and your spouse, and I hope that your mother is reasonably well. Nina. #112698 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions About SN 25.2 upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/22/2010 8:58:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, >1) One who has conviction & belief that all conditioned phenomena are >"inconstant, changeable, alterable," is called a "faith-follower," is no >longer "run-of-the-mill," and will not die until attaining stream-entry. >[Does >this make such a person a so called "lesser stream-entrant"? >Also, what is the Pali and the correct translation for what is rendered >here as "inconstant, changeable, alterable"?] aniccÄ viparinÄmino aññathÄbhÄvino Lesser stream-entrant is called as saddhÄnusÄrÄ« (faith follower) or dhammÄnusÄrÄ« (dhamma follower). The difference between two types is in predominance of faculties. One has faith predominant, another by intellectual understanding. >[Why in all three cases is only the lakkhana of impermanence >dealt with?] Because it is enough IF taken far enough to remove all clinging and bring Arahatship. Other 3 characteristics are also derivatives of anicca. IMHO, there is no magic formula of "you have to know 100 pages of Abhidhamma to become awakened. If you don't know even one small aspect, then forget about Awakening". Rather whatever it takes to remove ALL clinging, that is what is required. IMHO. With metta, Alex ================================= Thank you for this helpful reply! With regard to lesser stream enterer, I guess then that 'cula-sotapanna' refers to either faith-follower or dhamma-follower? As for the Pali 'aniccÄ', 'viparinÄmino', and 'aññathÄbhÄvino', I know that the first is properly translated to mean "impermanent" (or "not lasting"), but I wonder whether the translations of the remaining two as 'changeable' and 'alterable' are standard. (My reason for asking: 'impermanent' allows for discrete phenomena, instantaneously arising and then ceasing, but 'changeable' and 'alterable' have continuous-transformation senses.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112699 From: A T Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions About SN 25.2 truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >With regard to lesser stream enterer, I guess then that >'cula-sotapanna' refers to either faith-follower or dhamma-follower? Maybe. It is a bit tricky as these are words from different time periods following different model of Awakening. Is stream entry path, momentary or can it last a lifetime? Is cula-sotopanna a momentary state or can it last a lifetime? > As for the Pali 'aniccÄ', 'viparinÄmino', and 'aññathÄbhÄvino', I > know that the first is properly translated to mean "impermanent" (or >"not lasting"), I will have to check this, but Anicca according to a certain teacher does not mean as much impermanent as it means "irregular". Inconstant is IMHO a good common ground. This definition doesn't have to imply momentariness. viparinÄmino, from vipariṇÄma (change)? aññathÄbhÄvino = aññathÄ + bhÄva (becoming otherwise) With metta, Alex #112700 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions About SN 25.2 upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/22/2010 11:24:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, all, >With regard to lesser stream enterer, I guess then that >'cula-sotapanna' refers to either faith-follower or dhamma-follower? Maybe. It is a bit tricky as these are words from different time periods following different model of Awakening. Is stream entry path, momentary or can it last a lifetime? Is cula-sotopanna a momentary state or can it last a lifetime? > As for the Pali 'aniccÄ', 'viparinÄmino', and 'aññathÄbhÄvino', I > know that the first is properly translated to mean "impermanent" (or >"not lasting"), I will have to check this, but Anicca according to a certain teacher does not mean as much impermanent as it means "irregular". -------------------------------------------- I've also heard "unreliable". Most people give it as "impermanent" though. ------------------------------------------ Inconstant is IMHO a good common ground. This definition doesn't have to imply momentariness. ----------------------------------------- Nor does 'impermanent'. These are neutral in that respect. But 'changeable' suggests non-instaneousness, as do 'alterable' and 'becoming otherwise' (as you give below), with 'becoming otherwise' possibly neutral. ---------------------------------------- viparinÄmino, from vipariṇÄma (change)? aññathÄbhÄvino = aññathÄ + bhÄva (becoming otherwise) With metta, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112701 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:04 pm Subject: Absorption by Breathing! bhikkhu5 Friends: Breathing in-&-out can produce Absorption! The blessed Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, the concentration gained by Awareness by Breathing, when trained, is of great fruit and advantage. And how, Bhikkhus, is this concentration by Awareness by Breathing developed and cultivated so that it is of great fruit and advantage? Bhikkhus, when one have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, there one sits down cross-legged, having made one's body and back straight, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plain aware of that breathing in itself one breathes in, and just solely aware of only that breathing in itself one breathes out... 1: Breathing in long, one knows, notes and understands: I inhale long! Breathing out long, one knows, notes and understands: I exhale long! ... ... ... ( steps 2-15) One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe in! One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out! Therefore, Bhikkhus, if a friend wishes: May I become secluded from all sense desires, protected from any detrimental mental state, and thereby enter and dwell in the 1st jhâna, which is directed thought and sustained thinking joined with Joy and pleasure born of solitude, then this very same concentration by Awareness by Breathing should be cultivated often & devoted much attention! Furthermore if such friend should wish: By the stilling & fading of all directed and sustained thought, may I enter & dwell in the 2nd jhâna, which is a calmed assurance fixed by solid mental unification and joined with Joy & pleasure now born of a concentration devoid of any active thinking, then this same method: Awareness by Breathing should be trained often & devoted sincere attention! Even further; if one should wish: With the fading away of joy, may I dwell in composed equanimity, just open, aware and clearly comprehending, still feeling pleasure in this body, by entering upon and remaining in the 3rd jhâna, about which the Noble Ones declare: "In aware Equanimity one dwells in pleasure!", then this very same exercise: Awareness by Breathing should be developed regularly and dedicated much earnest consideration! Finally if one should wish: With the leaving all behind of both pleasure and pain , even as with the prior disappearance of both Joy and sorrow , may I enter and dwell in the 4th jhâna, which is an entirely silenced state of utter awareness, purified by Equanimity of neither-pain-nor-pleasure, then this same praxis: Awareness by Breathing should be repeated daily & thus made a primary priority due to its importance! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. [V:316-7] section 54: Ânâpânasamyutta. Thread 8: The simile of the Lamp! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112702 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:09 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > At some point next year I will ask you about yoga. I started recently, and when the session is near the end, and we stretch out and relax, the sensation of calm energy filling the body is similar to the sensation I have when a meditation session has led to the state I hoped for. I think the meditation I do is closer to yoga anyways. I don't doubt that Buddhist samatha meditation has a cousinly connection to yoga, particularly what you mention - the deep relaxation at the end of a session of asanas/postures, which is known as savasana, or the corpse pose. I think that practice at the end of yoga classes was my first, and sometimes deepest, experience of real calm and peace with awareness and energy at the same time [which I didn't fall asleep, which happened more at first.] For someone who tends to be tense and anxious, it was quite wonderful to be able to really let go and relax. I do see the connection to Buddhist samatha and "calming the bodily formation." > Well, maybe next year. I'm going to sign off now and stay off the internet for a couple of weeks. Haha. Well, maybe I will. Resolutions add up and play out in unexpected ways, all my resolutions to be on the internet less often will eventually lead me there, I feel. I don't give up easily on my intentions, but I also don't expect them to be fulfilled over night. > > Happy holidays to all, see you again in 2011. I agree that intentions can bear fruit in the future if they continue to accumulate. You can't change the present or how things are going to arise, but intentions put into the stream eventually have an effect. Hope you have a great 2011, with more good results, and good wishes for the new year to all our friends at DSG. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112703 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: ...Right now dhammas arise and > fall. Right now, every moment. They are all anatta, anicca, and dukkha, but I am sure you have heard this before. I agree that dhammas continuously arise and fall away. I guess the question for me is not one of knowing this, but getting more deeply into the experience. So I see meditation not as the end-all and be-all, but a way of training attention and understanding. It is not "me" that trains that, but the meditation itself. It is true that insight can arise in any situation, but it seems to me that often the seeds are planted in practice, and then show up at whatever time and place conditions the arising. I don't dismiss the importance of ongoing life conditions, but I don't dismiss the conditioning action of meditation either. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions About SN 25.2 nilovg Hi Howard and Alex, Op 22-dec-2010, om 13:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... > Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, > changeable, alterable. > "One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is > called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of > rightness, > entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the > run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he > might be reborn in > hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. ----- H: As an aside, the title given for the sutta is misleading, for the sutta pertains to all conditioned phenomena, not just rupas. ----- N: Yes, but see the context, where ruupa, here the translation for body, is one among these phenomena. It is a series of suttas: eye, etc. body, citta.... -------- H:1) One who has conviction & belief that all conditioned phenomena are "inconstant, changeable, alterable," is called a "faith-follower," is no longer "run-of-the-mill," and will not die until attaining stream- entry. [Does this make such a person a so called "lesser stream-entrant"? Also, what is the Pali and the correct translation for what is rendered here as "inconstant, changeable, alterable"?] ------- N: I was hpoing Alex would answer since he made a study of this subject and wrote about it before. I find it a difficult area. Thanks, Alex. Alex also gave the Pali: Also, what is the Pali and the correct translation for what is rendered >here as "inconstant, changeable, alterable"?] A: aniccÄ viparinÄmino aññathÄbhÄvino Lesser stream-entrant is called as saddhÄnusÄrÄ« (faith follower) or dhammÄnusÄrÄ« (dhamma follower). The difference between two types is in predominance of faculties. One has faith predominant, another by intellectual understanding. >[Why in all three cases is only the lakkhana of impermanence >dealt with?] Because it is enough IF taken far enough to remove all clinging and bring Arahatship. Other 3 characteristics are also derivatives of anicca. -------- N: When one understands impermanence one also understands dukkha, because what does not stay is dukkha, not happiness. What is impermanent and falls away immediately, is beyond control, non-self. ------ N: I followed your further conversation: 'cula-sotapanna' refers to either faith-follower or dhamma-follower?> ------- N: Cuula-sotapanna, lesser stream enterer, is not a sotaapanna, but a stage of insight. Vis. XIX, 27. He clearly discerns condiitons, , it is 'correct knowledge and right seeing and overcoming of doubt...' One of the Purities. ------- H: Is stream entry path, momentary or can it last a lifetime? Is cula-sotopanna a momentary state or can it last a lifetime? ------ N: Path-consciousness of the sotaapanna is one moment, but once a sotaapanna one cannot become again an ordinary person. What has been eradicated has been eradicated, no reversal. Cula-sotopanna a momentary state? As said it is a stage of insight. but one has to go on developing insight to become a sotaapanna. -------- A: > As for the Pali 'aniccÄ', 'viparinÄmino', and 'aññathÄbhÄvino', I > know that the first is properly translated to mean "impermanent" (or >"not lasting"), H: Inconstant is IMHO a good common ground. This definition doesn't have to imply momentariness. ------ N: It is imperanece of naama and ruupa, thus of momentary realities. What else could it be? They arise and fall away. ------ Nina. #112705 From: "alan" Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:13 pm Subject: Thank you Sarah pannabahulo Thank you for the very accurate report you gave on last Saturdays Dhamma discussion at the foundation.And my thanks to you,Jonathan, Sukin and Mom Betty for your very helpful comments and suggestions.Also a big thank you to Nina for her continued support. My only additional comments would be: 1)It doesn't make logical sense to send metta to oneself.I don't think we need delve into absolute realities to realise that.Conventional wisdom alone will do. 2)There was discussion about my need to reordain because of world weariness. Of course this is dosa. As to the motives for reordaining they are both kusala and akusala.But this doesn't deter me for the following reason. As I remember it, in the "Questions of King Melinda" the king asks the Ven Nagasena about people who ordain merely as a way of getting food or shelter.Ven Nagasena replies that not only do many ordain for that reason but that he himself also ordained for that reason.And as most people consider that Ven Nagasena was an arahant,then so what?Had he not ordained would he have even bothered to study Dhamma? 3)Buddhist teachings are concerned with the mind in the present moment; yet we find no references to what people with clinical depression, bipolar disorder etc can best do to help themselves.True the Buddha helped several cases of people with mental difficulties - but exactly how he did this is not recorded as far as I am aware.Is the Dhamma for only those in good physical and mental health? I am sorry to be so brief but I leave for a meditation retreat tomorrow evening.So this will be the last computer use until the new year. But I will be at the Foundation for the meeting of January 8th and look forward to seeing you all then. #112706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sickness. was:Thank you Sarah nilovg Dear Alan, Op 23-dec-2010, om 14:13 heeft alan het volgende geschreven: > Buddhist teachings are concerned with the mind in the present > moment; yet we find no references to what people with clinical > depression, bipolar disorder etc can best do to help > themselves.True the Buddha helped several cases of people with > mental difficulties - but exactly how he did this is not recorded > as far as I am aware.Is the Dhamma for only those in good physical > and mental health? ------- N: The Dhamma is for all who are able to grasp it, no matter in what situation. We cannot tell in how far this or that person can understand it. I like to remember what the Buddha said to Nakulapitar (Kindred Sayings (III, Khandha-vagga, the First Fifty, paragraph1, Nakulapitar) who was sick: So long as we are still clinging to the khandhas we are like sick people, but we can be cured of our sickness if we see the khandhas as they are. The Buddha taught people time and again to understand all phenomena appearing one at a time through the six doors. Sometimes he used conventional language, sometimes he taught by way of paramattha dhammas. --------- > I am sorry to be so brief but I leave for a meditation retreat > tomorrow evening.So this will be the last computer use until the > new year. > But I will be at the Foundation for the meeting of January 8th and > look forward to seeing you all then. ------- N: Have a good retreat! And as you know, also at a retreat there are merely conditioned namas and rupas. We never know before-hand what dhammas will arise, they are beyond control. ----- Nina. #112707 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:45 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 21-dec-2010, om 7:28 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I find it difficult to understand how "merit," as a kind of > > quantity that is made greater and gives good results in the future, > > can exist as a real element. ... ... I quote from Kh > Sujin's book on the Perfections: > > therefore, we should not forget that we should develop them not > because we expect a result of kusala, but because we see the danger > of each kind of akusala. ... > I forgot whether you have this book. If not I can send it to you. > (But because we are snowed in we cannot reach the post office now. We > can do a little shopping afoot with back packs). I hope you are okay in the snow! I appreciate your quote from the book. I think it's probably better for me not to get a new book right now, because I am still so far behind, but it will be good to see the book in the future. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112708 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, SARAH CONNELL wrote: ...the more I practiced I developed an habitual > tendency to perform the actions in the same way each time till they became > perfected. Also just as the Buddha advised us to associate with others of good > qualities, it also held true in practicing with others. Those that exercise > regularly are also doing the same thing of developing an habitual tendency > improving their physical body. This I believe holds true for demerit also. One > who eats to excess on a regular basis develops the habitual tendency which leads > to morbid obesity and diabetes. > Of course these are over-simplified and in some ways simplistic examples but I > think may be helpful.... Thank you, that is helpful. There is a supernatural aspect to the accumulation of merit which is harder for me to grapple with, but the description you give seems like a very good starting point. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112709 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:56 am Subject: Kamma and Its Fruits hantun1 Dear Robert E, In my last post, I had mentioned about the Aaci.n.na kamma (habitual kamma) and the Aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma (indefinitely effective kamma). But we must be aware of the fact that there are many factors that govern the ripening of any given kamma. Venerable Nyanaponika Mahaa Thera wrote that the kamma does not operate with mechanical rigidity but allows for a considerably wide range of modifications in the ripening of the fruit. Kamma and Its Fruit by Venerable Nyanaponika Maha Thera http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha273.htm Quote: [Most writings on the doctrine of kamma emphasize the strict lawfulness governing kammic action, ensuring a close correspondence between our deeds and their fruits. While this emphasis is perfectly in place, there is another side to the working of kamma: a side rarely noted, but highly important. This is the modifiability of kamma, the fact that the lawfulness which governs kamma does not operate with mechanical rigidity but allows for a considerably wide range of modifications in the ripening of the fruit. If kammic action were always to bear fruits of invariably the same magnitude, and if modification or annulment of kamma-result were excluded, liberation from the samsaric cycle of suffering would be impossible; for an inexhaustible past would ever throw up new obstructive results of unwholesome kamma. Hence the Buddha said: "If one says that in whatever way a person performs a kammic action, in that very same way he will experience the result [yathaa yathaaya.m puriso kamma.m karoti tathaa tathaa ta.m pa.tisa.mvediyatii'ti] - in that case there will be no (possibility for a) religious life and no opportunity would appear for the complete ending of suffering. "But if one says that a person who performs a kammic action (with a result) that is variably experienceable, will reap its results accordingl [yathaa yathaa vedaniiya.m aya.m puriso kamma.m karoti tathaa tathaassa vipaaka.m pa.tisa.mvediyatii'ti]: in that case there will be (a possibility for) a religious life and an opportunity for making a complete end of suffering." AN 3:110] End Quote. --------------------- [Han] The complexity of the ripening of kamma is evident in, AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html Here, the Buddha said: "the [precise working out of the] results of kamma is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness and vexation to anyone who conjectured about them." "Kammavipaako, bhikkhave, acinteyyo, na cintetabbo; ya.m cintento ummaadassa vighaatassa bhaagii assa." [Han] That is the main reason why I used to say that I can control my activities, but I cannot control the outcome of my efforts. with metta and respect, Han #112710 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) & question for K. Sujin epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Cittas arising in a mind-door process can think of a concept, and > there can be many mind-door processes with cittas thinking of a > concept, with bhavangacittas in between. A mind-door process > consists of one moment of mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is > kiriyacitta and then followed by javanacittas that are either kusala > cittas or akusala cittas, for non-arahats. > Usually we think with akusala cittas of concepts, that is when we are > not intent on daana, siila or mental development. Thanks for the explanation. I guess I am wondering how the whole process is possible at all. When all defilements are gone, no more cittas arise at all - as I understand it. I guess I wonder how it is possible that consciousness arises in the first place - how defilements come to exist that generate the experience of samsara. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112711 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (4) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Robert E & Friends, > > Yesterday we had a lovely day-trip to Ayutthaya where our friend has a house. We travelled by van with your pen-pal Sukin and a few other friends. At our friend's house we had dhamma discussions with K.Sujin with a very leisurely and declicious Thai lunch by the river near the ruins of the old capital of Thailand. > > 1. Rob E's qu on killing #112619 which he asked to bring to KS's attention. > > KS: "Instead of tlking about situations, what about cittas, one at a time?" > > Rob "...do we need to be concerned with the fruits of physical actions....?" > > KS: "Do WE need to be..?" > She then stressed the importance of more understanding of reality, not questions about situations. > > > 2. Rob E's qus #112659 on one citta through one doorway. Why the streams, the dreams, the continuous perceptions etc: > > KS: "Because they are dhammas!" Each dhamma conditions the next dahmma instantly. This is the nature of such dhammas. On and on. Samsara is dhamma as well. > > >R:In addition, how is it that these dhammas appear to form up solid objects that > continue in time and space beyond the moment? How is it that momentary cittas > can contrive conceptual objects that appear to be real? The concepts must > appear to exist through many succeeding moments in order to create the illusion > of continuity and solidity. How is it possible that cittas can be conditioned > to take the same concept for such a long period of time, which must involve many > many cittas in a row? > .... > S: On time and space, KS commented "what do you mean - time and space? Thinking". How come there appears to be many (experiences) together? It's not understanding of any reality. Because of past experience and accumulations, we think in such ways. There's no need to count cittas and it's true there is an illusion of continuity and solidity. We begin to understand what is meant by pannatti (concepts). > > Rob asked how is it possible that cittas can be conditioned to take concepts for a long time. KS: "not long at all!". > > Visible objects appears and is followed by thinking all the time, this is why it's always mentioned first of the sense-doorways. > > (maybe more later - my notes are so cryptic and my memory's even more cryptic -I'm packing to leave as I write and that may have something to do with it:-) May be Jon or Sukin will add more. Thanks for sending these notes. I found them very interesting and I much appreciate your bringing up my questions and K. Sujin taking the trouble to answer them. Anything else you remember will be appreciated. I am left with a lovely impression of the beautiful place where you met and the delicious Thai lunch. For a moment I felt I was there. Regards also to my penpal Sukin, who must have had a nice time! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112712 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:58 pm Subject: Stilling by Breathing! bhikkhu5 Friends: How can one experience Ceasing of all Pain? The blessed Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, the concentration won by Awareness by Breathing, when developed and frequently cultivated, is of great fruit and results in a big advantage... And how, Bhikkhus, is concentration by Awareness by Breathing developed and cultivated so that it is of great fruit and advantage? Bhikkhus, when one have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, there one sits down cross-legged, having straightened one's body and back, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plainly aware of that breathing itself one breathes in, & just solely aware of only that breath in itself, one breathes out... Breathing in long, one knows, notes and understands: I inhale long! Breathing out long, one knows, notes and understands: I exhale long! ... ... ... (steps 2-15) ... ... ... One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe in! One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out! Therefore, if such friend feels a pleasant feeling, then he understands through his prior training in breathing meditation: It is impermanent; it should neither be clung to nor delighted in... If he feels a painful feeling, then he indeed also understands: It is impermanent; it should neither be clung to nor engaged in... If he feels a neutral feeling there and then he also understands: It is impermanent; it should neither be clung to nor involved in... Whether he feels a pleasant feeling, or a painful feeling, or a neutral feeling, he feels it as if detached from it, and as something remote, and alien... If he feels a feeling terminating with the body, then he understands: If feel a feeling terminating at the same time as this body... If he feels a feeling terminating with life, then he understands: I feel a feeling terminating at the same time as this life... He then understands: With the break-up of this frame of a body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, and all sensed, not being delighted in, will turn cold right there and then... Just as, bhikkhus, an oil lamp burns in dependence on the oil and the wick, and with the exhaustion of the oil and the wick the flame ceases to burn through lack of fuel, exactly so too, Bhikkhus, when such a Bhikkhu feels a feeling terminating with the body or with life... Then he understands: With the break-up of this fragile frame of a body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, all that is sensed, by not being delighted in, by not being clung to, will cool down & cease right there & then! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. [V:319-20] section 54: Ânâpânasamyutta. Thread 8: The simile of the Lamp! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112713 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:27 am Subject: Re: Kamma and Its Fruits epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Robert E, > > In my last post, I had mentioned about the Aaci.n.na kamma (habitual kamma) and the Aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma (indefinitely effective kamma). > > But we must be aware of the fact that there are many factors that govern the ripening of any given kamma. Venerable Nyanaponika Mahaa Thera wrote that the kamma does not operate with mechanical rigidity but allows for a considerably wide range of modifications in the ripening of the fruit. > > Kamma and Its Fruit by Venerable Nyanaponika Maha Thera > http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha273.htm > > Quote: [Most writings on the doctrine of kamma emphasize the strict lawfulness governing kammic action, ensuring a close correspondence between our deeds and their fruits. While this emphasis is perfectly in place, there is another side to the working of kamma: a side rarely noted, but highly important. This is the modifiability of kamma, the fact that the lawfulness which governs kamma does not operate with mechanical rigidity but allows for a considerably wide range of modifications in the ripening of the fruit. > > If kammic action were always to bear fruits of invariably the same magnitude, and if modification or annulment of kamma-result were excluded, liberation from the samsaric cycle of suffering would be impossible; for an inexhaustible past would ever throw up new obstructive results of unwholesome kamma. Hence the Buddha said: > > "If one says that in whatever way a person performs a kammic action, in that very same way he will experience the result [yathaa yathaaya.m puriso kamma.m karoti tathaa tathaa ta.m pa.tisa.mvediyatii'ti] - in that case there will be no (possibility for a) religious life and no opportunity would appear for the complete ending of suffering. > > "But if one says that a person who performs a kammic action (with a result) that is variably experienceable, will reap its results accordingl [yathaa yathaa vedaniiya.m aya.m puriso kamma.m karoti tathaa tathaassa vipaaka.m pa.tisa.mvediyatii'ti]: in that case there will be (a possibility for) a religious life and an opportunity for making a complete end of suffering." You discuss an important point, which also gives some hopefulness regarding the flexibility of how kamma vipaka can perhaps be influenced by positive forces coming into play. It has sometimes been said in other traditions that kamma can be modified or "burnt up" by conscious understanding of the causes that have been put into play, that they can worked out in the mind, rather than always manifesting in situations or circumstances. This would not mean understanding the exact way that kamma is played out, which Buddha warned against engaging, but just an acknowledgment of akusala influences that come to one's attention. I wonder what you think about this? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112714 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:57 am Subject: Re: Kamma and Its Fruits hantun1 Dear Robert E, [Robert] You discuss an important point, which also gives some hopefulness regarding the flexibility of how kamma vipaka can perhaps be influenced by positive forces coming into play. It has sometimes been said in other traditions that kamma can be modified or "burnt up" by conscious understanding of the causes that have been put into play, that they can worked out in the mind, rather than always manifesting in situations or circumstances. This would not mean understanding the exact way that kamma is played out, which Buddha warned against engaging, but just an acknowledgment of akusala influences that come to one's attention. I wonder what you think about this? -------------------- [Han] I have no disagreement to your above statement. The modification or "burnt up" can be found in our tradition also. There are certain types of kamma that can produce, support, obstruct, or destruct other kammas. In CMA, Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi explains about these kammas: (1) Productive (janaka) kamma is wholesome or unwholesome volition which produces resultant mental states and kamma-born materiality, both at the moment of rebirth-linking and during the course of existence. At the moment of conception, productive kamma generates the rebirth-linking consciousness and the kamma-born types of materiality constituting the physical body of the new being. During the course of existence it produces other resultant cittas and the continuities of kamma-born materiality, such as the sense faculties, sexual determination, and the heart-base. Only a kamma that has attained the status of a full course of action can perform the function of producing rebirth-linking, but all wholesome and unwholesome kammas without exception can produce results during the course of existence. (2) Supportive (upatthambaka) kamma is kamma which does not gain an opportunity to produce its own result, but which, when some other kamma is exercising a productive function, supports it either by enabling it to produce its pleasant or painful results over an extended time without obstruction or by reinforcing the continuum of aggregates produced by another kamma. For example, when through the productive function of wholesome kamma one is reborn as a human being, supportive kamma may contribute to the extension of one's life-span and ensure that one is healthy and well provided with the necessities of life. When an unwholesome kamma has exercised its productive function by causing a painful disease, other unwholesome kamma may support it by preventing medicines from working effectively, thereby prolonging the disease. When a being has been reborn as an animal through the productive force of unwholesome kamma, supportive kamma may facilitate the ripening of more unwholesome kamma productive of painful results, and may also lead to an extension of the life-span so that the continuity of unwholesome-resultants will endure long. (3) Obstructive (upapii.laka) kamma is kamma which cannot produce its own result but nevertheless obstructs and frustrates some other kamma, countering its efficacy or shortening the duration of its pleasant or painful results. Even though a productive kamma may be strong at the time it is accumulated, an obstructive kamma directly opposed to it may counteract it so that it becomes impaired when producing its results. For example, a wholesome kamma tending to produce rebirth in a superior plane of existence may be impeded by an obstructive kamma so that it generates rebirth in a lower plane. A kamma tending to produce rebirth among high families may produce rebirth among low families; kamma tending to longevity may tend towards shortness of life; kamma tending to produce beauty may produce a plain appearance, etc. In the opposite way, an unwholesome kamma tending to produce rebirth in the great hells may be counteracted by an obstructive wholesome kamma and produce rebirth in the minor hells or among the petas. During the course of existence many instances may be found of the operation of obstructive kamma. For example, in the human realm such kamma will obstruct the continuum of aggregates produced by kamma, facilitating the maturation of kamma that results in suffering and causing failures in regard to property and wealth or family and friends, etc. In the lower realms obstructive kamma may counteract the rebirth-producing kamma, contributing to occasions of ease and happiness. (4) Destructive (upaghaataka) kamma is wholesome or unwholesome kamma which supplants other weaker kamma, prevents it from ripening, and produces instead its own result. For example, somebody born as a human being may, through his productive kamma, have been originally destined for a long life-span, but a destructive kamma may arise and bring about a premature death. At the time of death, at first a sign of a bad destination may appear by the power of an evil kamma, heralding a bad rebirth, but then a good kamma may emerge, expel the bad kamma, and having caused the sign of a good destination to appear, produce rebirth in a heavenly world. On the other hand, a bad kamma may suddenly arise, cut off the productive potential of a good kamma, and generate rebirth in a woeful realm. According to Ledi Sayadaw, destructive kamma can also be responsible for cutting off the efficacy of any of the sense faculties (the eye, ear, etc.) causing blindness or deafness, etc., and can also cause sexual mutation. ------------------- Kind regards, Han #112715 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:49 am Subject: Re: Kamma and Its Fruits epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > (1) Productive (janaka) kamma is wholesome or unwholesome volition which produces resultant mental states and kamma-born materiality... > (2) Supportive (upatthambaka) kamma is kamma which does not gain an opportunity to produce its own result, but which, when some other kamma is exercising a productive function, supports it... > (3) Obstructive (upapii.laka) kamma is kamma which cannot produce its own result but nevertheless obstructs and frustrates some other kamma.. > (4) Destructive (upaghaataka) kamma is wholesome or unwholesome kamma which supplants other weaker kamma, prevents it from ripening, and produces instead its own result. Excellent! Thanks for this breakdown of these major forms of kamma. Best, Robert E. = = = = #112716 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and Its Fruits nilovg Dear Han and Rob E, some more aspects. Op 24-dec-2010, om 3:56 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Venerable Nyanaponika Mahaa Thera wrote that the kamma does not > operate with mechanical rigidity but allows for a considerably wide > range of modifications in the ripening of the fruit. ------- N: Quote from my book on Conditions, Ch Kamma and Vipaaka-Condition: We read in the Commentary to the “Book of Analysis”, the “Dispeller of Delusion” (Ch 16, Tathågata Powers 2, 439-443) about four factors which condition kamma to produce result: destiny, or the place where one is born (gati); substratum, including beauty or ugliness in body (upadhi); the time when one is born (kåla) and the “means” (payoga), including skill in one’s occupation, in the performing of one’s tasks. These four factors can be favorable (sampatti) or unfavorable (vipatti). If they are favorable, akusala kamma has less opportunity and kusala kamma has more opportunity to produce result and if they are unfavorable, akusala kamma has more opportunity and kusala kamma has less opportunity to produce result. For example, if someone is born in a happy plane, if he has beauty of body, if he is born in a favorable time (kåla), when there is a good king and the country is prosperous, if he is successful in his occupation, in the performing of his tasks (payoga), the ripening of akusala kamma is inhibited and there is opportunity for kusala kamma to give results. If these four factors are unfavorable (vipatti), the opposite is the case: akusala kamma has the opportunity to ripen and the results of kusala kamma are inhibited. -------- Nina. #112717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) & question for K. Sujin nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 24-dec-2010, om 4:10 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > A mind-door process > > consists of one moment of mind-door adverting-consciousness, > which is > > kiriyacitta and then followed by javanacittas that are either kusala > > cittas or akusala cittas, for non-arahats. > > Usually we think with akusala cittas of concepts, that is when we > are > > not intent on daana, siila or mental development. > > Thanks for the explanation. I guess I am wondering how the whole > process is possible at all. When all defilements are gone, no more > cittas arise at all - as I understand it. ------ N: The arahat who has not finally passed away yet still has cittas. Otherwise he would not be alive. Instead of kusala cittas he has sobhana kiriyacittas, kiriyacittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. He is seeing, hearing, etc. and on account of these objects mahaa- kiriyacittas (kiriyacittas of the sense-sphere accompanied by sobhana cetasikas) arise. ----------- > R: I guess I wonder how it is possible that consciousness arises in > the first place - how defilements come to exist that generate the > experience of samsara. ------ N: This is explained by means of the Dependent Origination. Ignorance and craving condition our rebirth and continuing in samsara. Only fully developed pa~n~naa can make an end to being in samsara. For pa~n~naa to become fully developed, it has to begin, and when? Now. ------- Nina. #112718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 24-dec-2010, om 3:45 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > (But because we are snowed in we cannot reach the post office now. We > > can do a little shopping afoot with back packs). > > I hope you are okay in the snow! ------- N: Today too slippery to go out shopping for the holidays. We have to wait and see. This makes me think of the texts on the disadvantages of food, very interesting. One has to go out for it and walk in dirty places, in our case, in slippery places. And we learn: OK, if we do not have something, we do not have it, such as butter on our bread! Dhamma is everywhere. ------ Nina. #112719 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:45 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah szmicio Dear Alan, > My only additional comments would be: > 1)It doesn't make logical sense to send metta to oneself.I don't think we need delve into absolute realities to realise that.Conventional wisdom alone will do. L: Generally here is the point. I think sending metta to onself has different context. This may be having metta to oneself, having khanti to our own behaviours. For egample, when we are nervous and anger we can see other people also have this, thus when we understand that those moments of anger happen to us, the we have metta nothing supprise us with someone else bad behaviours. If we want to understand others first we have to understand ourselfs. That's how i see it. > As I remember it, in the "Questions of King Melinda" the king asks the Ven Nagasena about people who ordain merely as a way of getting food or shelter.Ven Nagasena replies that not only do many ordain for that reason but that he himself also ordained for that reason.And as most people consider that Ven Nagasena was an arahant,then so what?Had he not ordained would he have even bothered to study Dhamma? L: This is very common that intention of ordaing is only to get matterial shelter or food. But later it can change dramaticaly, we can be absorbed and delight in profoundness of Dhamma. Who knows, what kind of conditions appear. So this is good to consider metta for any being. > 3)Buddhist teachings are concerned with the mind in the present moment; yet we find no references to what people with clinical depression, bipolar disorder etc can best do to help themselves.True the Buddha helped several cases of people with mental difficulties - but exactly how he did this is not recorded as far as I am aware.Is the Dhamma for only those in good physical and mental health? L: Well, I would say, if the mental health is good why bother to study Dhamma. If everything is OK, than we dont even see a needs to change situation. I think if the mental health is bad, depresions, schizophremian etc. This people can have very profound and urgent way of finding a relief. This relief can be a Dhamma. Best wishes Lukas #112720 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:26 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) gazita2002 hallo Nina, thinking of you today in all that snowy cold weather. While you are in a big freeze, we are having a monsoonal low crossing our coastline, so its wet and windy here right now, however its a relief from the intense heat build up to the rains. As you say its all dhamma, we get caught up in our own stories, Xmas day, our family, our friends, its all a myth isnt it - jst like Santa Claus:) patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > N: Today too slippery to go out shopping for the holidays. We have to > wait and see. This makes me think of the texts on the disadvantages > of food, very interesting. One has to go out for it and walk in dirty > places, in our case, in slippery places. And we learn: OK, if we do > not have something, we do not have it, such as butter on our bread! > Dhamma is everywhere. > > ------ > Nina. #112721 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:20 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah philofillet Hello Alan and all Nice to meet you and thank you for your summary of the meeting in Bangkok. I must say that last night I found your post kind of haunting my sleep last night, I thought about it when I couldn't sleep, and it worked its way into my dreams as well. I think it is not only because of an interest in you and the topic, but also because of recurring issues I deal with and often rant about here. So please allow me to make some probably lengthy comments/reflections on the following: > 1)It doesn't make logical sense to send metta to oneself.I don't think we need delve into absolute realities to realise that.Conventional wisdom alone will do. (snip) >> 3)Buddhist teachings are concerned with the mind in the present moment; yet we find no references to what people with clinical depression, bipolar disorder etc can best do to help themselves.True the Buddha helped several cases of people with mental difficulties - but exactly how he did this is not recorded as far as I am aware.Is the Dhamma for only those in good physical and mental health? Re metta starting with oneself, my first reaction was to say "well, Buddhagosa says in Vism that we should do it that way" but I think I will drop that line because people always have ways to dismiss what Vism says and it seems they may be right, the instructions in Vism seem to be (based on a post Jon put) aimed at people who have already achieved a special degree of mental purity. (I forget the details, and I think they are probably debatable but not interested in that.) Also, I agreed that if we think about dhammas, the notion of "sending" or "projecting" metta doesn't make sense. But I think that that is what Vism. says. Of course in this day and age, a teaching that originally might have been quite subtle in meaning has been diluted, and we have people saying they will send metta to people living in different countries and so on. Clearly from a Theravada point of view that is nonsensical. But here we get at what I want to reflect on publically, for my own purposes mostly. Is the purpose of the Buddha's teaching for householders happiness or liberation? And, indeed, is the overall above-all-purpose freedom from suffering? I remember when I joined DSG I still was active at a Yahoo Group devoted to the Brahma-Viharas (It is a small but excellent group, still quietly but consistently active, with many posts by Antony Woods, who also posts here. It is called Buddha Viharas, and anyone interested in the b.vs should check it out.) At that point I started to learn about Abhidhamma and was immediately infatuated with it, it seemed to answer a question I had been having about how we could possibly bridge between emotional wellbeing/working for others and real liberation. I said something about Abhidhamma at the brahma-viharas group and someone said to me to be careful, getting too interested in Abhidhamma would put me too far out on the wisdom wing, and I would lose the heart wing. (Maybe in Thibetan Buddhism especially there is a teaching about those two wings?) I rejected that notion, of course, but now (not for the first time) I find myself wondering if it might be true. I am not saying that I believe in the stereotype of Theravada being selfish and cold, I know that is not the case, by protecting others, we protect ourselves, by protecting ourselves, we protect others, and many other teachings clearly disprove that stereotype. So Theravada is not cold and selfish. But what I find more and more everywhere here and at Dhammawheel, a major internet forum, is that people are all so interested in making attainments, doing serious, intense meditation (not here of course) discussing deep points dealing with liberation, such as perception of anatta and so on. I feel more and more left out. I just clearly and honestly want to be happy and stop doing things that are harmful to myself and others. Does this mean a) I have missed the boat or b) I have a proper understanding of the Dhamma that was taught by the Buddha to householders of limited understanding. I suspect the answer is b) but it could very well be a). Is it time for me to look at Mahayana again? The other day I went to the National Museum in Tokyo and spent hours in the company of hudnreds of Buddhist statues. I usually am completely disinterested in Japanese Buddhism because of the various ways in which it reflects a serious corruption of the original teaching. (Whiskey drinking married "monks" and so on) But not for the first time I was moved to tears by the peace and above all the compassion radiating from those statues and paintings and mandalas. I felt so clearly that the point of the Buddha going out into the world to teach was not only the ultimate liberation of beings, but their happiness and wellbeing, wholesome forms of happiness and wellbeing that go against the stream of the way the world pushes people into harmful behaviour. This winter vacation I will be trying again to overcome my internet addiction, which causes me a lot of pain. (It includes an addiction to pornography that comes and goes.) This morning, as usual, as soon as I woke up and towards the end of my meditation I wanted to turn on the internet immediately. It's a very powerful urge, and the fact that it crops up during meditation shows how powerful and distracting it is. I won't go into details, but it is harmful to me in many ways, I am sure of it. As I washed the dishes left over from last night (that I didn't wash because of using the internet), perhaps inspired by your posts, I found myself generating "metta" for myself, seeing myself sitting in peace and happiness, free from the impulses that drive me to do harmful things, and that comforting image freed me from the driving desire to turn on the computer. I don't know if it would have any place in helping with depression, but if generating a desire for yourself to be free from suffering, to have a bright, joyful, liberated mind, to see yourself sitting wrapped in that joy...if that sort of thing helped you to be happier, who should or can tell you that it is wrong? Acharn Sujin and others can tell you it's wrong, perhaps other orthodox Theravadans with correct understanding of the Buddha's teaching can tell you it's wrong. But now I find myself that if that is true, is Theravada for me? One of the members here, Ken H, has several times told me I should find another religion, perhaps be a Christian. Maybe it is time for me to be a Mahayanist? Something to reflect on, but hopefully if I find out more about how Theravada householders in Asian countries follow the Buddha's teaching (without such an insistence on liberating insight topics, and I have often said and still believe that an interest in those topics is often hiding a desire to be happy by contact with excitingly, pleasingly deep ideas, so it all comes to wanting to be happy people in my opinion, for householders on the internet) I can still find a place in Theravada. We'll see. Anyways, I wish you well, Alan, and again, a very happy New Year to everyone here. Metta, Phil #112722 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:59 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) philofillet Hi Azita and all > As you say its all dhamma, we get caught up in our own stories, Xmas day, our family, our friends, its all a myth isnt it - jst like Santa Claus:) As a postscript to my long post, I will say that I think it is awful to say our family, our friends are just a myth. Maybe Ariyans understand things in that light - maybe - but for us to say so is miserable and bizarre. I'm sorry. I think Theravada might not be for me if this is what Theravada says... ...Azita, I always remember a talk in which "There is no Nina" was discussed, and I remember you clearly and confidently saying (paraphrase) "I think it is really important from the beginning to understand that there is no Nina" or words to that effect. I loved to hear you say that, probably listened to that particular talk 20 or 30 times. Now I just feel left out of that kind of idea...left behind? But "our family, our friends, it's all a myth..", sorry, I truly don't believe the Buddha would be encouraging you to have that understanding. I don't believe it. But I don't deny that deep, unfathomably deep and liberating understanding would reveal that. You can claim that understanding if you are comfortable doing so, I won't. Metta, Phil p.s sorry for the strident tone, and Merry Christmas to you Azita, and all. Won't be around to respond, sorry.... #112723 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:34 pm Subject: The Sandcastle of Expectation... bhikkhu5 Friends: Expectation is bound to give Disappointment! Whenever and wherever there is expectation, there is also hoping & longing! Whenever and wherever there is hoping & longing, there is also craving... Whenever and wherever there is craving, there is also suffering! This is the 2nd Noble Truth: Craving causes suffering... Whenever & wherever there is neither expectation, nor hoping, nor longing, nor any form of craving present, how can there ever be any suffering? This is the 3rd Noble Truth: Absence of craving ends all suffering... <...> Discontent Disappointment is NOT caused by the outside world! 'Loving' and 'liking' mixed with expectation => passion => suffering! 'Loving' and 'liking' without expectation = friendliness => elevation! These 2 forms of “love” lookalike, but are VERY different in outcome! Expectation is an often subconscious diluted derivative of greed, which nevertheless retains the ability to ruin any relationship and any life by inducing the mischievous and treacherous mental state called discontent! This discontent is NOT caused by the external object as often believed, but by the very 'own' internal hidden prejudgement inherent in expectation! About Expectation: Always Different Awareness of Emerging Expectation Helps: If one notices expectation right when it arises, and also when it persists, this enables reflecting: "Now future suffering is created and maintained!"! This in itself gradually will reduce this diluted derivative of painful craving. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112724 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) & question for K. Sujin epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------ > N: ... Ignorance > and craving condition our rebirth and continuing in samsara. Only > fully developed pa~n~naa can make an end to being in samsara. For > pa~n~naa to become fully developed, it has to begin, and when? Now. :-) Thank you Nina! Merry Christmas! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #112725 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 24-dec-2010, om 3:45 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > (But because we are snowed in we cannot reach the post office now. We > > > can do a little shopping afoot with back packs). > > > > I hope you are okay in the snow! > ------- > N: Today too slippery to go out shopping for the holidays. We have to > wait and see. This makes me think of the texts on the disadvantages > of food, very interesting. One has to go out for it and walk in dirty > places, in our case, in slippery places. And we learn: OK, if we do > not have something, we do not have it, such as butter on our bread! > Dhamma is everywhere. Yes, that is true. Sometimes it can be charming to be snowed in, but only if you have enough provisions. We had a big snowstorm last year and no one could go to work or drive anywhere for about a week. There were some folks going by on cross-country skis and snowshoes where normally there would be cars; and I walked with my daughter about a mile uphill in the snow to get her to a friend's house. It was just beautiful walking through the deep snow. On the main road there were no cars, and just people slowly trudging through the snow to get here and there. Most of the shops were closed. Well I loved it, but I would not have enjoyed it quite so much if we did not have "butter for our bread." Luckily the electricity was on and my freezer was full, so we didn't suffer much. If things get worse and you can't get the provisions, then the Dhamma really comes into play with full force! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112726 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:25 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah epsteinrob Hi Lukas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: Well, I would say, if the mental health is good why bother to study Dhamma. If everything is OK, than we dont even see a needs to change situation. I think if the mental health is bad, depresions, schizophremian etc. This people can have very profound and urgent way of finding a relief. This relief can be a Dhamma. I think you have a good point, and Herman here has made a similar point before as well. Without a degree of suffering, whether mental or physical, that leads to at least a bit of samvega, why would we consider giving up clinging and craving to aim for a higher form of happiness that is not so easy to come by? So it may be true that those who decide to investigate the Dhamma may have a degree of sensitivity to life conditions or a greater degree of suffering than the average person and really feel some discontent with ordinary life. In my case, I just always had a mystical sense, from a young age, that ordinary life was not fulfilling enough. Even when it was fine, I wanted to find out what was possible in a deeper spiritual dimension, so I was drawn to study this in various ways, from philosophy to yoga, to zen to t'ai chi, to esoteric lightwork to healing energy work, and finally to Vipassana meditation and studying of Theravada. There must be either some form of extreme suffering, which I also experienced a little later on the road of life, or some kind of discontent with ordinary living, to seek something else. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #112727 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:10 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah epsteinrob Hi Phil. I wrote a long post in response to your message here, but I am breaking it up to make it more readable. Here is part I! :-) It's still pretty long, but hope you will read it! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Also, I agreed that if we think about dhammas, the notion of "sending" or "projecting" metta doesn't make sense. But I think that that is what Vism. says. Of course in this day and age, a teaching that originally might have been quite subtle in meaning has been diluted, and we have people saying they will send metta to people living in different countries and so on. Clearly from a Theravada point of view that is nonsensical. I think that metta is considered a real object of citta in Abhidhamma, but maybe I am wrong. In any case, even if it would be considered conceptual, I'm sure it is kusala. Also, moving away from the commentarial view for a moment, I believe that there are portions of Theravada that invoke the life-energy side of things, and this includes the generating of "energy" as one of the enlightenment factors, the generating of piti and sukkha in jhana, the part of anapanasati that refers to generating bliss throughout the entire body, and the generating of metta and projecting it outwards. I think these parts of the Buddha's teaching, as well as some of the supernatural powers that Buddha employs, speak to a world in which various energies or radiated powers are at play and I think the monks of the early days acknowledged and experienced these things without much question as to their authenticity on the path. We tend to be both scientifically oriented in today's Western-shaped world, and also prone to a kind of cold Dhamma that only includes ordinary perception of ordinary dhammas. We forget that the supernatural is part of the Buddhist cosmology and that Buddha invokes it in many, many, many parts of the teachings. Even the very roots of the Abhidhamma, having been given by Buddha in a single lecture in an arupa plane, according to the commentarial tradition, speaks of the actuality of these supernatural elements. In short, I don't think we should dismiss the idea of the projection of metta being real out of hand, but consider it as the Buddha did - something that ought to be done and that is both kusala and meritorious, whatever we may think about the dhammas involved. We can practice it now and analyze it later. In terms of sending metta to people in other countries, what if there really is a continuum energy that goes around the world and even around the Universe, such as it is, and that can be the conduit for projecting kusala or akusala energies? If that is the case, projecting metta could be a very important form of work to bringing the world into the energetic frequency of the path. How this translates into Abhidhamma terms can be worried about later, but if we can project kamma from one lifetime to the next and wind up in different worlds and circumstances based on the "energy" of our thoughts and deeds, surely we can influence world kamma through the projection of metta or the projection of more akusala nonsense. Best, Robert E. #112728 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:11 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah epsteinrob Hi Phil. Here is Part II - also a little longish... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > So Theravada is not cold and selfish. But what I find more and more everywhere here and at Dhammawheel, a major internet forum, is that people are all so interested in making attainments, doing serious, intense meditation (not here of course) discussing deep points dealing with liberation, such as perception of anatta and so on. I feel more and more left out. I just clearly and honestly want to be happy and stop doing things that are harmful to myself and others. Does this mean a) I have missed the boat or b) I have a proper understanding of the Dhamma that was taught by the Buddha to householders of limited understanding. I suspect the answer is b) but it could very well be a). I think that everyone's motivation for studying Dhamma, practicing meditation or changing our bad habits is to reach greater happiness. Those who are intent on very serious meditation or perceiving anatta are just using those methods because they think they are the key to happiness. The formula may be "happiness = pornography" for one person, and "happiness = perception of anatta" for another person. But if I am clinging to "anatta" it is not that much better than clinging to pornography. If I manage to let go of pornography - my false path to happiness - I am ahead of the person who is still clinging to "anatta" because it is a happiness-concept for them. Gaining greater happiness and release from suffering are two sides of the same coin. Buddha advertised the greater happiness that came from the higher states after releasing craving and clinging to some extent. He did not just say "get rid of suffering so you can experience nothing." He said "get rid of suffering and experience a higher, more dependable form of happiness that doesn't go away because it's not based on changeable samsaric forms." So I don't think you're so far away from the "liberation" message by wanting to be happy. It's just doing what you are doing - sorting out what can give you *real* happiness as opposed to false, temporary, painful happiness - the kind most of us have. I'll just repeat again - the really serious Dhamma guy who says to himself "Dammit, I almost experienced anatta today but I didn't quite make it!" might as well be watching porn and wishing he could stop. It's not that different. Meditating or contemplating Dhamma - whatever your path is - with faith and trust that it will eventually yield higher happiness and release from suffering is far better than pushing for any kind of immmediate result. On this I agree with my Abhidhamma friends. Even if meditating, one has to enjoy the process itself and not worry so much about whether you have gotten to a, b or c at any particular point. I noticed by accident that I started feeling a kind of mild bliss when I meditated, without any feeling of clinging to make it last. When it ended I would say "Hm that was nice," but it didn't seem to have attachment, and I wasn't trying to achieve it. That seems like a "natural" result to me, but if I started trying to increase it, it would turn into more of the same clinging garbage. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112729 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:12 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah epsteinrob Hi Phil. Part III! One more part after this! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Is it time for me to look at Mahayana again? The other day I went to the National Museum in Tokyo and spent hours in the company of hudnreds of Buddhist statues. I usually am completely disinterested in Japanese Buddhism because of the various ways in which it reflects a serious corruption of the original teaching. (Whiskey drinking married "monks" and so on) But not for the first time I was moved to tears by the peace and above all the compassion radiating from those statues and paintings and mandalas. I felt so clearly that the point of the Buddha going out into the world to teach was not only the ultimate liberation of beings, but their happiness and wellbeing, wholesome forms of happiness and wellbeing that go against the stream of the way the world pushes people into harmful behaviour. My own feeling is that if practice leads to greater feelings of contentment and happiness over time, it is the right result. It doesn't have to feel that way every day, but over time you should be lighter and happier and less in pain. Those all go together to me. Those who are in the statues and who seem to be in bliss or happiness have just gotten rid of enough poison to feel "normal." We who still struggle can indeed use them as an example, whether they are Theravadin or Mahayana - who cares? Ajahn Chah and people like that were likewise out of the mainstream of suffering. They all represent the hope that we will get there too, and then we can get back to work! I have been noticing that the dsg idea that there is only what is happening in the moment, and the specific dhamma that is arising, is really not that different from zen in some ways. If you ask the zen master what is enlightenment, he may say something like "A pound of flax," or "eat when hungry." Why do they say this? They are pointing to the dhammas of the moment and the reality that is always here as the key to enlightenment. Not so different really - just has to be seen with panna and it is all one path. And basic zen meditation and vipassana meditation are practically the same. The philosophy seems to differ but the practice is not so different. Breathe. Be aware of the moment. Let go of pushing for results and realize enlightened mind right now. What's the difference? Even Theravada and Mahayana are just concepts. There are some enlightened folks running around the history books from both traditions, and may have more in common than anyone would like to think. Hui-Neng famous Patriarch of Chinese Buddhism who really founded Ch'an which became zen and is their translation of the word Dhyana or Jhana - said that "from thought-moment to thought-moment one should have a mind free from delusion..." or something like that. Doesn't sound that much different from Abhidhamma to me! He also said something like "a single enlightened thought makes one the equivalent of the Buddha." Sounds like a path-moment in Abhidhamma doesn't it? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112730 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:13 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah epsteinrob Hi Phil. And finally, Part IV! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > ...As I washed the dishes left over from last night (that I didn't wash because of using the internet), perhaps inspired by your posts, I found myself generating "metta" for myself, seeing myself sitting in peace and happiness, free from the impulses that drive me to do harmful things, and that comforting image freed me from the driving desire to turn on the computer. I don't know if it would have any place in helping with depression, but if generating a desire for yourself to be free from suffering, to have a bright, joyful, liberated mind, to see yourself sitting wrapped in that joy...if that sort of thing helped you to be happier, who should or can tell you that it is wrong? Acharn Sujin and others can tell you it's wrong, perhaps other orthodox Theravadans with correct understanding of the Buddha's teaching can tell you it's wrong. I think there are many practices in Theravada that not only allow but encourage this, and it sounds very positive to me. You are using a kind of image of self with enlightened qualities to foster those qualities in yourself. Don't we contemplate the enlightened attributes of the Buddha in order to infuse them in our own cittas? I think you are doing something very similar, and I don't think it is outside of Theravada at all. Using images to conjure kusala and bring it into consciousness is among the Theravada techniques. I think what finally makes someone Theravadin or Mahayana, meditator or Abhidhammika, is what feels comfortable and kusala to the temperament of the practitioner. What makes you connect to the path and brings you towards the enlightenment factors? If you find a technique that brings you closer, then adopt it, I would say. But don't feel you have to swallow one whole school or the other, as opposed to being wise about what works for you on the path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #112731 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Lodewijk & all, --- On Fri, 24/12/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: Today too slippery to go out shopping for the holidays. We have to wait and see. This makes me think of the texts on the disadvantages of food, very interesting. One has to go out for it and walk in dirty places, in our case, in slippery places. And we learn: OK, if we do not have something, we do not have it, such as butter on our bread! Dhamma is everywhere. .... S: Just been speaking to my family in England - freezng conditions. One brother who lives on the Scottish border has been snowed in and without electricity, but fortunately all working now and he's just got his family home. Also, tell Lodewijk, we were chatting to a Dutch family in Xmas who just managed to get a flight out of Schipol before it was closed for a while. The flight had arrived at Schipol from Tokyo but couldn't unload any luggage and had then flown on to Bangkok with the luggage of the Tokyo passengers. So the entire flight of passengers from London arriving in Bkk were also without any of their luggage and had to go out and buy everything they needed - but they were the lucky ones that made the trip! Long stories and dramas whilst in samsara as Azita referred to. Back in Hong Kong and more stories and dramas. Having moved to Sydney, Jon's now about to take up a full-time job in Hong Kong:-/ Thank goodness for having heard about seeing and visible object, hearing and sound and so on. Without this moment of seeing or hearing, none of these dramas. Is there any understanding and detachment now as we indulge in more Xmas festivities? Meanwhile, very best wishes to everyone and a wise holiday season! Metta Sarah p.s I was also thinking of Lodewijk as I read an article about the oldest Holocaust survivor - a lady who at over 100 yrs old, still pracises on her piano for two hours a day, keeps her house clean and entertains visitors. Good piano practise weather in Europe along with post-writing! ===== #112732 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) nilovg Dear Sarah (also Rob E, Azita), Thanks for a beautiful letter I passed on to Lodewijk. Op 25-dec-2010, om 10:39 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: Just been speaking to my family in England - freezng > conditions. ... ----- N: We keep on thinking of your mother who wants to stay with you (Hong Kong, Manly?) in Febr. which is usually the worst month, like last year. I enjoyed Rob's story, walking in the snow. Our freezer also has a good stock, we shall not go hungry if it does not last too long. Indeed, stories, and just now I shall post 'What I heard" about kamma and vipaaka. -------- > > S: Back in Hong Kong and more stories and dramas. Having moved to > Sydney, Jon's now about to take up a full-time job in Hong Kong:-/ ------ N: Your house in Manly is still good for later on. But it is complicated. -------- > > S: Thank goodness for having heard about seeing and visible object, > hearing and sound and so on. Without this moment of seeing or > hearing, none of these dramas. Is there any understanding and > detachment now as we indulge in more Xmas festivities? ----- N: Very good, that is what Acharn stressed on the recording this morning. ----- Nina. #112733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:04 am Subject: What I heard, Kamma and vipaaka. nilovg Dear friends, Kamma and vipaaka. People think that losing their possessions illustrates the operating of kamma that produces vipaaka. However, vipaakacitta is just one moment of citta, such as seeing, hearing or the other sense- cognitions. When we think of losing possessions, this is a long story, it is thinking of concepts. For example, when we have a beautiful ornament, the seeing is kusala vipaakacitta and this falls away immediately. Who is the possessor? There are only elements arising and falling away. There is not only seeing, but there are many other cittas apart from seeing. Seeing is only one moment and then we think of what has been seen. When we think of what we possess as if it exists, it is only thinking. Through satipa.t.thaana we learn that there is only one moment of experiencing an object through one doorway at a time. What does not appear we do not possess. When one suffers from an accident like a fire, one may think of kamma that produces vipaaka. But instead of thinking of stories and concepts there can be a more precise understanding of vipaakacitta that is one moment of seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions. Such understanding is a condition to become more established in kusala. ***** Nina. #112734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts, was: Thank you Sarah nilovg Dear Philip, Op 25-dec-2010, om 2:20 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > . I just clearly and honestly want to be happy and stop doing > things that are harmful to myself and others. Does this mean a) I > have missed the boat or b) I have a proper understanding of the > Dhamma that was taught by the Buddha to householders of limited > understanding. I suspect the answer is b) but it could very well be > a). -------- N: You have not missed the boat. Abstaining from akusala is always good and should be encouraged. You worry too much. ------- Ph: As a postscript to my long post, I will say that I think it is awful to say our family, our friends are just a myth. . ...Azita, I always remember a talk in which "There is no Nina" was discussed, .... But "our family, our friends, it's all a myth..", sorry, I truly don't believe the Buddha would be encouraging you to have that understanding. I don't believe it. .... -------- N: It is helpful to understand that what we take for a person are cittas, cetasikas and ruupas, fleeting phenomena. We have a social life, feel metta and compassion for others, try to help family and friends. We think of them with kusala cittas, and we can come to understand very, very, very gradually that what we take for ourselves and others are citta, cetasika and ruupa. This will not make us indifferent towards others, on the contrary, it will help to be less selfish, possessive. We cannot posseess anything and this is good. So, when you hear, 'There is no Nina, no Phil', place it in the right context, that is important. ------- Nina. #112735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:25 am Subject: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 (previous one should be no 4). nilovg Dear Han and friends, Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5. ----------- Also the commentary to the “Visuddhimagga”, the tika which is the “paramattha ma~njusaa”, explains about the latent tendencies as akusala dhammas that do not arise but that are lying dormant and follow the continuous succession of cittas. It explains that when there is an appropriate condition they cause the arising of akusala citta. We read: “The dhammas that are called latent tendencies are lying dormant; they follow the continuous succession of cittas and they cannot yet be eradicated. It is explained that when they come upon an appropriate condition they arise. It is true that the defilements that cannot be eradicated yet must arise when there is a cause for this, they are as it were dormant in the continuous succession of cittas. Therefore, the defilements that have such a characteristic are called latent tendencies. These defilements that can be of the future, are called in a general way of speech latent tendencies. And likewise those that are of the past or the present are called latent tendencies because they have that nature as has been explained. The difference in time (past, present and future) does not indicate a difference in nature. Someone may object to this and think that what is said about the latent tendencies pertains to all defilements. Latent tendencies are defilements that cannot yet be eradicated, and can this not be said about all defilements that cannot yet be eradicated, and should these also not be called latent tendencies? This objection is to be corrected as follows: we do not say that the latent tendencies are so called merely because they cannot yet be eradicated, but also because they are of great strength.” The tika explains that this is the difference between the latent tendencies and the other defilements. From this text we learn that the latent tendencies are defilements that cannot yet be eradicated, that they are lying dormant in each citta. When there is an appropriate condition they arise as medium defilement (pariyutthaana kilesa). When speaking in general, it is said that the defilements that are past, future and present are called latent tendencies. This means that when they are not yet eradicated in the past, future and present, they are still lying dormant in the citta and they are ready to be a condition for the arising of medium defilement. Thus, they have the nature of latent tendency with regard to the past, the future and the present. This does not mean that they are dependent on time, thus, that they arise and fall away. If someone objects that all defilements that cannot yet be eradicated are latent tendencies, the answer is that the latent tendencies are not merely defilements that cannot yet be eradicated, but that they are defilements which are very powerful; they are able to lie dormant in each citta without arising and performing functions. Therefore, the latent tendencies have the nature of akusala dhamma, but they are different from all other defilements since they are subtle defilements of great strength. They are able to lie dormant in each citta and they can only be completely eradicated by the path- consciousness. The text of the commentary to the Visuddhimagga explains further that the latent tendencies are of a nature that is powerful (thaamagato). They are as hard to remove as is dirt in the eye that one tries to remove with a lubricant oil as medicine. The sub-commentary to the Vinaya deals with the latent tendencies in the context of the eradication of transgressions through body and speech. The latent tendencies themselves cannot transgress siila. They are lying dormant and follow the continuous succession of cittas, and they cannot yet be eradicated. The latent tendencies are seven kinds of defilements that are powerful, such as sensuous desire and so on. They can arise when there is an appropriate condition for their arising. The sub-commentary that was quoted is merely an additional elaboration of the fact that latent tendencies are not medium defilements arising with the akusala citta (pariyutthaana kilesa), but that they are akusala of a different level. When there are the appropriate conditions they can arise as medium defilement. ********* Nina. #112736 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:50 pm Subject: Posts not appearing farrellkevin80 It has been about a week now and some of my posts have not appeared (including responses to other individuals). Is there any known reason for this? Thanks, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin #112737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts not appearing nilovg Dear Kevin, we have had this in the past. I noticed that some posts appeared double recently. Could you try to repost? Nina. Op 25-dec-2010, om 17:50 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > It has been about a week now and some of my posts have not appeared > (including > responses to other individuals). Is there any known reason for this? #112738 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:55 pm Subject: Re: concepts, was: Thank you Sarah kenhowardau Hi Nina, Phil and Azita, ------- Ph: >> As a postscript to my long post, I will say that I think it is awful to say our family, our friends are just a myth. . ...Azita, I always remember a talk in which "There is no Nina" was discussed, .... But "our family, our friends, it's all a myth..", sorry, I truly don't believe the Buddha would be encouraging you to have that understanding. I don't believe it. .... >> N: > It is helpful to understand that what we take for a person are cittas, cetasikas and ruupas, fleeting phenomena. We have a social life, feel metta and compassion for others, try to help family and friends. We think of them with kusala cittas, and we can come to understand very, very, very gradually that what we take for ourselves and others are citta, cetasika and ruupa. This will not make us indifferent towards others, on the contrary, it will help to be less selfish, possessive. We cannot posseess anything and this is good. So, when you hear, 'There is no Nina, no Phil', place it in the right context, that is important. --------- KH: That was very nicely answered, Nina. The answer I was preparing was, by comparison, almost offensive. I was thinking: what is the alternative to seeing people as myths? The only alternative would be to see them as realities. As realities, our friends and family - all sentient beings - would be susceptible to misfortune, disease, old age and death. That is not nice, but it is the price we are sometimes prepared to pay. Sometimes, we are so desperate to have real friends and real family that we are prepared to accept any consequences, even the terrible ones. It seems to me that the truly caring people - those who are our best friends - are those who are brave enough to see us as concepts (or as ultimately conditioned dhammas). As I was saying, my answer was potentially offensive. It suggested that some of us here were more selfish, and less considerate, than others. But the solution, as always, is to keep our Dhamma discussions impersonal. Ultimately there are no selfish people, there is only selfish thinking. And we all have that from time to time! Ken H #112739 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:43 pm Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah szmicio Hi Rob E, > I think you have a good point, and Herman here has made a similar point before as well. Without a degree of suffering, whether mental or physical, that leads to at least a bit of samvega, why would we consider giving up clinging and craving to aim for a higher form of happiness that is not so easy to come by? So it may be true that those who decide to investigate the Dhamma may have a degree of sensitivity to life conditions or a greater degree of suffering than the average person and really feel some discontent with ordinary life. In my case, I just always had a mystical sense, from a young age, that ordinary life was not fulfilling enough. Even when it was fine, I wanted to find out what was possible in a deeper spiritual dimension, so I was drawn to study this in various ways, from philosophy to yoga, to zen to t'ai chi, to esoteric lightwork to healing energy work, and finally to Vipassana meditation and studying of Theravada. There must be either some form of extreme suffering, which I also experienced a little later on the road of life, or some kind of discontent with ordinary living, to seek something else. L: Yeap, I knew young guys that was dying, they also have this sense of spirituality, of samvega. Hovewer they didnt have enought time. I was also suffering when young, but now I prefer delight in life. I forget samevega. I dont like it cause I like samevega. But what can I do to have it more now? Best wishes Lukas #112740 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:48 pm Subject: Re: Posts not appearing szmicio Hi Kevin(Nina) Posts seems to appear in the web interface of the group, but they are somehow lost when you check your email. For sure this is a problem that needs to be solved. But I dont think so that reposting is a good way, cause when they appear they will be dobled. This is annoying also to me. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > It has been about a week now and some of my posts have not appeared (including > responses to other individuals). Is there any known reason for this? #112741 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:02 pm Subject: Re: concepts, was: Thank you Sarah gazita2002 hallo KenH, Phil and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Nina, Phil and Azita, Phil: But "our family, our friends, it's all a myth..", sorry, I truly > don't believe the Buddha would be encouraging you to have that > understanding. I don't believe it. .... > >> > > N: > It is helpful to understand that what we take for a person are > cittas, cetasikas and ruupas, fleeting phenomena. We have a social > life, feel metta and compassion for others, try to help family and > friends. We think of them with kusala cittas, and we can come to > understand very, very, very gradually that what we take for ourselves > and others are citta, cetasika and ruupa. This will not make us > indifferent towards others, on the contrary, it will help to be less > selfish, possessive. We cannot posseess anything and this is good. > So, when you hear, 'There is no Nina, no Phil', place it in the right > context, that is important. > --------- > > KH: That was very nicely answered, Nina. The answer I was preparing was, by comparison, almost offensive. Azita: I agree with you Ken, Nina answered in a very caring manner and I'm sure you werent going to be offensive!!! > > I was thinking: what is the alternative to seeing people as myths? The only alternative would be to see them as realities. As realities, our friends and family - all sentient beings - would be susceptible to misfortune, disease, old age and death. That is not nice, but it is the price we are sometimes prepared to pay. Sometimes, we are so desperate to have real friends and real family that we are prepared to accept any consequences, even the terrible ones. > > It seems to me that the truly caring people - those who are our best friends - are those who are brave enough to see us as concepts (or as ultimately conditioned dhammas). azita: to be totally 'cooled' towards family, friends etc one would have to be an arahant. I'm not:( and therefore Xmas Day with a mob of them can be interesting. to have thoughts of 'its all jst citta, cetasika and rupa' even if its only thinking and no actual experience of a reality, can be very relieving if only for a minute. Not getting caught up in the concepts of every day life particularly something like Xmas seems like a good thing to me. However, I certainly dont think its all kusala, this not getting caught up, in fact very little of my day is kusala, jst going by the feelings that are experienced. Bottome line for me, Phil, is that all of this - the world in which we live, family, friends etc... - is jst impermant realities of citta, cetasika and rupa. This is all at the thinking level for sure, however they are the kinda thoughts that 'I' want to cultivate rather than thoughts of harm etc. As Ken said that the best friends to have are the ones who see us a concepts and I add the ones who remind us 'we' are concepts. may all beings be happy azita #112742 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts not appearing sarahprocter... Dear Kevin & all, --- On Sun, 26/12/10, Kevin F wrote: >It has been about a week now and some of my posts have not appeared (including responses to other individuals). Is there any known reason for this? .... S: By far the most common reason for this are a) when people have more than one email account and use a different server address to the one subscribed and b) change their email server/address after subscribing, but forget to re-subscribe with the new address. In these cases, when replying to an email, the reply often goes to the in-box of the address of the person being replied to, but will not go to DSG. So, please check the email address that you sent the mail from that hasn't shown up and let me know (off-list better for this kind of thing) if this is the case or if there's any other problem which we can help check out. As someone else pointed out, we've noticed that often your mail is sent twice to the list. If anyone else has any tech problems like this anytime, pls also let Pt or me know off-list as there's usually a simple solution like this (i.e subscribing the additional email address). Sometimes yahoo has some glitch or is doing some engineering works. In this case everyone is affected and it usually just means delays, but eventually the mail comes through. Pt usually sends a note to the list in this case. The only other reason I can think of for "no-shows" or delays for anyone is if their posts are under moderation. This only affects newcomers and those who just can't/won't follow the DSG Guidelines - not you, Kevin! Have a happy Boxing Day and best wishes for your posting. Metta Sarah ======== #112743 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:51 pm Subject: Acceptance! bhikkhu5 Friends: Expectation inevitably creates Disappointment: How does one create future frustration for oneself? By expecting!!! Ooh May I enjoy such and such form in the future. Ooh May I delight in this and that feeling in the future. Ooh May I experience exactly these lovely things in the future. Ooh May I receive my beloved favourite experiences in the future. Ooh May I relish only in those mental states, that I like in the future. Ooh May I be satisfied by solely favourite sorts of consciousness in future. Ooh May I Not meet this or that disliked person, event, circumstance, etc... On the contrary: One is always content if without any expectations: Let the past be past, passed and forgotten, for never to return to it again! Let forms, feelings, experiences, hopes & mind here & now be as they may! Let whatever arise & cease! Relinquishing all hoping and wishing for whatever future forms, feelings, experiences, constructions & types of consciousness: May I just remain aware, calm, clear, content and therefore unagitated! Let it be, as it may! Let it come, as it comes! Let it go, as it goes! Good is contentment with just what one has, with just what there is! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya III 11-12 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112744 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:12 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah epsteinrob Hi Lukas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > > I think you have a good point, and Herman here has made a similar point before as well. Without a degree of suffering, whether mental or physical, that leads to at least a bit of samvega, why would we consider giving up clinging and craving to aim for a higher form of happiness that is not so easy to come by? So it may be true that those who decide to investigate the Dhamma may have a degree of sensitivity to life conditions or a greater degree of suffering than the average person and really feel some discontent with ordinary life. In my case, I just always had a mystical sense, from a young age, that ordinary life was not fulfilling enough. Even when it was fine, I wanted to find out what was possible in a deeper spiritual dimension, so I was drawn to study this in various ways, from philosophy to yoga, to zen to t'ai chi, to esoteric lightwork to healing energy work, and finally to Vipassana meditation and studying of Theravada. There must be either some form of extreme suffering, which I also experienced a little later on the road of life, or some kind of discontent with ordinary living, to seek something else. > > L: Yeap, I knew young guys that was dying, they also have this sense of spirituality, of samvega. Hovewer they didnt have enought time. > I was also suffering when young, but now I prefer delight in life. I forget samevega. I dont like it cause I like samevega. But what can I do to have it more now? Ha ha, well that is a problem only Buddhists have - wanting to be more unhappy when they are too happy! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #112745 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts not appearing upasaka_howard Hi, Kevin - In a message dated 12/25/2010 11:50:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, farrellkevin80@... writes: It has been about a week now and some of my posts have not appeared (including responses to other individuals). Is there any known reason for this? Thanks, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin =================================== I got this one. Before this I rec'd 1 email from you dated the 22nd, 3 on the 21st, 1 on the 20th, and the rest on the 12th and earlier. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112746 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:19 am Subject: Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 hantun1 Dear Nina, Your post is very clear. Nevertheless, to understand it better, I go back to the three levels of kilesaa, which I found in a book. (1) Viitikkama-kilesaa is the coarse kilesaa, causing one to break the siila (precepts) and perform duccarita kamma (wrong action) physically or verbally. (2) Pariyu.t.thaana-kilesaa is the medium kind of kilesaa that arises with akusala-citta but not to the point of breaking the siila and performing duccarita kamma. (3) Anusaya-kilesaa is a very fine kilesaa. When kilesaa has not been eradicated, the anusaya-kilesaa would settle like sediment in the cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a paccaya for pariyu.t.thaana-kilesaa to arise. With this background, I understand better your following statements: [If someone objects that all defilements that cannot yet be eradicated are latent tendencies, the answer is that the latent tendencies are not merely defilements that cannot yet be eradicated, but that they are defilements which are very powerful; they are able to lie dormant in each citta without arising and performing functions. Therefore, the latent tendencies have the nature of akusala dhamma, but they are different from all other defilements since they are subtle defilements of great strength. They are able to lie dormant in each citta and they can only be completely eradicated by the path-consciousness.] [The sub-commentary that was quoted is merely an additional elaboration of the fact that latent tendencies are not medium defilements arising with the akusala citta (pariyutthaana kilesa), but that they are akusala of a different level. When there are the appropriate conditions they can arise as medium defilement.] -------------------- Secondly, I have noted your following statement: [When speaking in general, it is said that the defilements that are past, future and present are called latent tendencies.] In a Burmese book, it is stated that anusaya kilesaa (unlike pariyu.t.thaana-kilesaa and viitikkama-kilesaa) has no uppaada, .thita, and ba"nga. In another book it is stated that anusaya-kilesaa is associated with all three time frames, past, future and present, as it is lying dormant until it is eradicated. Are there any contradiction between your statement and the Burmese books? I think not. -------------------- Thirdly, I find it difficult to appreciate the following statement (it is also in the Burmese books as well): [The dhammas that are called latent tendencies are lying dormant; they follow the continuous succession of cittas and they cannot yet be eradicated.] Now, to be lying dormant in the continuous succession of cittas, it seems that the cittas that arise and fall away so very quickly have to be the vehicle for all these anusayas, all these kammas that are not yet ripened, all these accumulation of parami (perfections) etc. for a very long duration of time in the sa.msaara. I think it is too much for the cittas to function in that way. Respectfully, Han #112747 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:21 am Subject: What I heard. Kamma and Vipaaka, 2. nilovg Dear friends, Kamma and Vipaaka, 2. Usually people think of pain as result of kamma, but also seeing, hearing etc. are results of kamma. We take vipaakacitta for self, we think that a person sees or hears, but we should learn the characteristic of vipaaka as non-self. We cannot change vipaaka, there is at this moment seeing of visible object or hearing of sound. How could this be changed? We think of ourselves as this person in this life but life is actually one moment of experiencing one object and then gone. Question: The suttas explain vipaaka in a way different from the Abhidhamma. We read in the suttas that being born into a high clan, into a righ family, having possessions and honour is the result of kusala kamma. What is the reason for the explanation of the sutta being different from the explanation of the Abhidhamma? Acharn: When you are born in such a situation, it means that there is the seeing of pleasant objects, the hearing of agreeable sounds, the experience of pleasant objects through the other senses. There is an opportunity to have pleasant experiences. Usually we live in the world of conventional truth, of situations, of long stories. However, it does not matter whether one is born as a king or minister, whatever the circumstances may be. In reality all this can be reduced to the experience of visible object, sound, odour, flavour or tangible object that impinge on the relevant senses. If satipa.t.thaana is not developed one cannot really fathom the condition of vipaaka, such as seeing or hearing that arise now. People cling to situations and stories, and then there is only thinking. ******** Nina. #112748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:15 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 nilovg Dear Han, Your questions and remarks are useful for everybody. Op 26-dec-2010, om 4:19 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (3) Anusaya-kilesaa is a very fine kilesaa. When kilesaa has not > been eradicated, the anusaya-kilesaa would settle like sediment in > the cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a > paccaya for pariyu.t.thaana-kilesaa to arise. ------ N: Latent tendencies are called subtle because they themselves do not arise, but they are of great strength (thaamagato). They are so tenacious and stubborn that they settle in each citta as microbes. > > -------------------- > H: Secondly, I have noted your following statement: > [When speaking in general, it is said that the defilements that are > past, future and present are called latent tendencies.] > > In a Burmese book, it is stated that anusaya kilesaa (unlike > pariyu.t.thaana-kilesaa and viitikkama-kilesaa) has no > uppaada, .thita, and ba"nga. In another book it is stated that > anusaya-kilesaa is associated with all three time frames, past, > future and present, as it is lying dormant until it is eradicated. > > Are there any contradiction between your statement and the Burmese > books? I think not. > > -------------------- N: Right, it does not arise with the citta and therefore, it cannot be said to arise, be present and fall away. It is said that it is not subject to time, kala. But there is another aspect that can be considered: In the past akusala citta arose and fell away and thus the akusala cetasika such as sensuous desire could go on as a latent tendency from one citta to the following citta, up to the present and the future. All that is accumulated at this moment will go on to the future. Endlessly, until the magga-citta arises that eradicates latent tendencies. The next passage of this Thai treatise deals with the abandonment of defilements of the past, present and future. (In the pa.tisamdhidamagga, on abhisamaya). There is the simile of the unborn fruit and a man cuts the tree at the root. Then there will not be a fruit in the future. Here my explanation is not complete, I have to read and study the next passages of the Thai treatise that deals with this aspect. --------- > > H: Thirdly, I find it difficult to appreciate the following > statement (it is also in the Burmese books as well): > > [The dhammas that are called latent tendencies are lying dormant; > they follow the continuous succession of cittas and they cannot yet > be eradicated.] > > Now, to be lying dormant in the continuous succession of cittas, it > seems that the cittas that arise and fall away so very quickly have > to be the vehicle for all these anusayas, all these kammas that are > not yet ripened, all these accumulation of parami (perfections) > etc. for a very long duration of time in the sa.msaara. I think it > is too much for the cittas to function in that way. ------ N: Cittas are mental and what they can contain is endless. Citta is different from materiality, different from such a thing as a room that is limited in what it can contain. We do see that kamma produces result when it is the right time. We do see an endless variety of beings who are born: with two feet, four or more feet, as insects, human beings, heavenly beings, with different outward appearances, different characters. This must have a cause. The cause is in the past. The present must be connected with the past, and this is by means of cittas that succeed one another without an interval (anantara paccaya). The force of kamma is accumulated, and so are the different qualities of beings, good ones and bad ones. ****** Nina. #112749 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:05 pm Subject: Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comments. They are very useful. ----------- You were talking about the simile in Abhisamayakathaa of Pa.tisamdhidaamagga. I have the Pali text and Burmese translation, but not the English translation. I will wait for your presentation. Meanwhile, I print below the Pali text of that simile. Seyyathaapi taru.no rukkho ajaataphalo. Tamena.m puriso muula.m chindeyya. Ye tassa rukkhassa ajaataphalaa, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Han: As you said, the unborn fruit and a man cuts the tree at the root; then there will not be a fruit in the future. Evameva.m uppaado hetu, uppaado paccayo kilesaana.m nibbattiyaati. Uppaade aadiinava.m disvaa anuppaade citta.m pakkhandati. Anuppaade cittassa pakkhandattaa ye uppaadapaccayaa kilesaa nibbatteyyu.m, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Han: Even so, uppaada is hetu. Uppaada is paccaya. Having seen the fault of uppaada, the mind jumps onto (pakkhandati) anuppaada. In the same way, unarisen kilesa will not arise and so on. Respectfully, Han #112750 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:20 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 nilovg Dear Han, I keep your Pali text for the following issue, thank you. Op 26-dec-2010, om 13:05 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Even so, uppaada is hetu. Uppaada is paccaya. Having seen the fault > of uppaada, the mind jumps onto (pakkhandati) anuppaada. In the > same way, unarisen kilesa will not arise and so on. ----- N: This points to the future. The Treatise also deals with the four right efforts, referring to akusala that has not arisen. Nina. #112751 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts not appearing farrellkevin80 Hi Sarah, Nina, Lukas, Howard, and all who replied, Thanks a lot for all your messages and help! Thank you Sarah for all the information and help. I will reply to you about this here since the conversation is already public, but in the future I will write you or Pt off-list about any tech issues. I haven't changed my e-mail address or server to the best of my knowledge. I did have a large number of emails in by box though (I have a bad habit of not deleting old messages and just letting them pile up), however, I have since cleaned out the box. This may or may not have effected it. I do know there are delays sometimes before messages appear. A few times in the past when I have sent a message, if it did not appear within a few minutes, I would resend it, copying it from my sent messages box. I will refrain from doing this in the future so as to avoid double posting which can be confusing and/or annoying too. The last message I sent went fine and traditionally before last week my messages have almost always gone out fine and all have appeared, though sometimes with some delay. I think the problem may be cleared up and I will continue posting as usual. If I run into any more problems I will send a note off list. Merry Xmas to everyone and Happy Holidays. Yours Kevin #112752 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:15 pm Subject: James Madison Quotations farrellkevin80 Hi everyone, I have compiled a list of quotations of James Madison on my website. This is not specific to Dhamma, but this man really had a great deal of insight and a lot to offer the world. This is really something that the wise should read, IMHO. Passing this up is passing up hearing a collection of things said over a lifetime by a powerful man who had a tremendous accumulation of insight into worldly matters. Here is the link: http://dhammasnippets.webs.com/quotesfromjamesmadison.htm Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Walshe DN. 33.2.3(5) 'Seven right practices (saddhammaa): Here, a monk has faith, moral shame and dread, has much learning, has aroused vigour (aaraddha-viriyo), has established mindfulness (upa.t.thita-sati hoti), possesses wisdom. #112753 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:32 pm Subject: Quotations with a Religous Spin farrellkevin80 Dear All, Religious Commentary on the Founding Fathers! "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" When people with correct understanding do not speak out against misunderstandings, ignorance takes it's foothold in the population of Buddhists.. the only ones invested with the power to preserve its true meaning. "Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Educate yourself on matters of Dhamma now in this life, for in the next life, you may not be able to hear the teachings and do so. In this time when the Dispensation is dwindling, only education of the correct interpretation of the meaning will ensure it's preservation for coming generations of people. "Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later" - Benjamin Franklin The kamma we create now, due to our attachment, aversion and delusion, is usually paid for at a later time, or sometime in the next life, or some other one in the distant future. "If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property" - Thomas Jefferson When people think that attachment and aversion are their friends and helpers in life, they will be destroyed by them through the kamma they create. "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our civil liberties than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson When we invest our attachment and aversion with power and revolt against those that harm us, for example, being deluded by our attachment and aversion, we do more harm to ourselves than that which sought to harm us in the first place, making fresh new bad kamma in retaliation of some perceived injustice, when the injustice was really only the result of some old kamma (vipaka). "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not." - Thomas Jefferson The dispensation will be lost when you praise and give to those with the wrong meaning of the letter, and do not praise or support those with the right meaning so that it may flourish. "Question even the existence of a God; if there be one, he must approve of the homage of reason over that of blind-folded fear" - Thomas Jefferson Let reason, understanding, and discernment be your guide. And I leave you with this: "Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom" - Thomas Jefferson The search for truth, the practice of the Perfection of Truth, is more than just refraining from the telling of lies; it runs with the Perfection of Wisdom and also certainly entails trying to see all things for what they really are, not just as they may appear to be like, discovering the truth underneath in so many matters. May all beings be happy. Kevin Farrell. ___________ With metta Kevin Walshe DN. 33.2.3(5) 'Seven right practices (saddhammaa): Here, a monk has faith, moral shame and dread, has much learning, has aroused vigour (aaraddha-viriyo), has established mindfulness (upa.t.thita-sati hoti), possesses wisdom. #112754 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:51 pm Subject: The 3 Roots... bhikkhu5 Friends: The Deepest Tranquilization is that of Greed, Hate & Ignorance! The Blessed Buddha once said: Formerly, when that person was still ignorant, then he was possessed & obsessed by sexual & sensual greed, lust, desire, yearning, envy, jealousy, and miserliness... He was obsessed & possessed by hate, anger, ill-will, irritation and stubbornness... He was obsessed and possessed by ignorance, doubt, delusion & plain foolishness... These evils are now overcome by him, eradicated, like a slashed & uprooted tree, completely destroyed, and therefore unable to sprout into existence ever again! Therefore such Bhikkhu, thus endowed, is indeed enriched by the highest Calm! This tranquillization is his unshakable foundation! Since this, friends, is the very highest and most precious: The Tranquillization of Greed, Hate, and Ignorance!!! <...> Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikâya 140: Analysis of the Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112755 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:46 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, Hope you've been having a relaxing xmas with your family - sounds like a lot of snow your way too! Friends everywhere are telling us about the joys of back-pack shopping. Well, that's how we shop all the time! A friend of mine has just moved to Washington DC because she was tired of the pollution in Hong Kong. As I write, I'm looking at a beautiful blue and sunny sky here.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > 8. Thet Oo - his aim is to have more calmness, whereas for us, the aim is to develop more understanding of whatever dhamma is conditioned. If one is so concerned about calmness, one becomes very concerned about being agitated or about a lack of calm at the present moment. > >R: I just picked out this one topic, which interests me a lot. I don't think Buddha was opposed to developing samatha for its own sake, as it is kusala and leads to pleasure that is removed from attachment to sensory cravings, so I think to that extent it is all good. .... S: Hmmm, I understand him to have taught the development of satipatthana leading to the end of samsara. At moments of satipatthana, there is samatha, calm and this is much purer. Yes, he taught that all kinds of bhavana, including samatha bhavana are kusala and to be praised as such. Do we really know what samatha is? For example, whilst relaxing in savasana (corpse pose) at the end of our yoga classes, is it really samatha? If so, in what way is it kusala? Yes, it feels very calm, very relaxing, very peaceful, very pleasant. None of this makes it kusala or true calm. Of course, there can be moments of true samatha, true calm then as now or whilst relaxing with your family, but it requires understanding to know whether it's truly kusala, not a nice feeling about a particular situation as I see it. .... >R:However, I agree with you very much that when there is *attachment* to calm, that causes more problems than it solves. Attachment to calm is almost certain to cause *more* agitation, since every time calm is disturbed, the person attached to calm will become more irritated with the disturbance, and increase the disturbance. With calm as something to cultivate, but accepting the ups and downs which can be looked at with equanimity, that causes more calm even in the midst of disturbance. Hope that makes sense. ... S: I think that whenever our aim or wish is to have more calmness, it's unlikely to be calm at such times. Attachment can be very subtle and of course this applies to any wishes. .... >R: I don't think I'm very good at staying calm, period, but staying aware when calm, and being calm when disturbances arise, I think is positive. ... S: I don't think we should be concerned about *staying* calm, aware of anything else. Again, this seems likes clinging to ourselves and our mental states. Rob, I know we don't really agree here. If you'd like to raise any more qus for K.Sujin, we'll be back in Bkk next week (!!) en route to Aus again(!!). Metta Sarah p.s Was interested to read about Han's and your ailments - the low blood pressure & dizziness in his case and the choking and so on in yours. I think I can *trump* the *bad deeds in the past* as I suffer from all these! Like you, I have to be careful drinking and also can't swallow pills. I also sip green tea throughout the day - I seldom choke on this, unlike other kinds of tea!! And, I think we both might have been in wheel chairs by now if not for our yoga and stretching over the years. This is what I've been told anyway. I have a hip disability and like you, do a lot of stretching on the floor, legs up the wall and so on whilst travelling! I'd encourage all the young here to exercise and stretch! =========== #112756 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:17 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Han), Seasons greetings and best wishes for your holidays and New Year! Btw, I mentioned you to a Thai friend in Bkk who speaks Japanese and works at the Japanese Embassy in Bkk. He'd also like to meet you if you ever visit or move there. This was interesting: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > May I propose that this partial belief in anatta can be refined? <...> >So may I propose that we don't insist on believing in perceiving anatta or having it at the center from the beginning, but we still believing in the theory of anatta from the beginning, or something like that? That our belief in controlling activities is good, and still in line with the Dhamma, but there is an illusion of control, technically speaking, because all the dhammas that are behind the behaviour etc are anatta even if we don't perceive them as such from the beginning? .... S: So we believe in the theory of anatta from the beginning, but don't really believe it and that it's good to believe in control, even though we know it's an illusion:-// Surely it's pariyatti, right theory about the dhammas at this moment which leads to patipatti? Metta Sarah ======= #112757 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:39 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Many thanks for all the extra detail and comprehensive notes you provided. Just a couple of small comments: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > There must be some misunderstanding if my grandson said he rejected the Abhidhamma. On the taxi, on our way to your hotel, he said that one cannot attain the final liberation with sutta only and one must know the Abhidhamma for attaining magga and phala ~naa.nas. I even told him he could not say like that, because the Mahasatipatthana sutta, for example, is complete in itself for the path to liberation. ... S: There may have been some misunderstanding, but I think there is a common belief that the Abhidhamma is just for monks or for those with very highly developed panna. We were trying to explain that the Abhidhamma is not a text, but just these moments of seeing, hearing, visible object, likes and dislikes and so on. Actually, I don't think we were even using the term 'Abhidhamma', but people often feel that when we start talking about present realities, that this is 'Abhidhamma' and not applicable, not the 'practice'. So, of course, it comes back to the meaning of 'practice' now. .... > > [Han] I was telling you how I do my meditation. It went on like this: [In the books it says that I must not modify the breathing. Sometimes, I deliberately modify it. I came to notice that the stray thoughts enter my mind during the gap between the end of out-breath and the beginning of in-breath. I ask myself if I can obliterate that gap what would happen? So I continue the out-breath slowly and continuously, until both the lungs are empty. Then I breathe in. In that way there is no gap, and I found that no stray thoughts enter my mind at that moment. In other words, I am momentarily emptying my mind of any thoughts (like emptying "the trash bin" as we say on our computers). So I do like that for as long as possible. But after some time, the concentration fails, and I have to start all over again. For a few moments that I succeed, I have the most profound peace of mind.] .... S: Can I ask you a qu? Why do you want to make sure there are no "stray thoughts" entering your mind then or even now? Assuming there are stray thoughts now, what does the Mahasatipatthana Sutta say about them? according to your understanding ... > I said that at that time, I was concentrating only on the breath without any pa~n~naa. For pa~n~naa and vipassanaa I do off-cushion, reflecting on the three characteristics, but mainly on the anicca, on whatever appears in my mind. You and my grandson said that while reflecting on the breath there must be pa~n~naa, even it is applied for samatha only; if not, it is not "bhaavanaa". I said I did not care about the labels. If it is not bhaavanaa, okay, just say that it is for concentration or whatever you want to call it. .... S: Yes, this is fine. Like I was saying about yoga or yogic breathing - there may be all sorts of health and other advantages and as long as we don't confuse it with bhaavanaa or true samatha, it's fine. Yes, the labels are not important as we agree. .... > I added that I am doing all these things without a personal teacher. In a way, it is good for me that I do not have a personal teacher. Otherwise, with my stubborn and rebellious nature, if my teacher says one thing and if I do another thing it will not be good. In the army, if I disobey my superior, it is insubordination and I may be court-marshaled. Here, even if my teacher forgives me for my insubordination, I will have the guilty conscious in my mind, which is not good. .... S: As I said to your grandson, in any case it's healthy to question and really consider what one's told rather than just follow orders when it comes to the Dhamma understanding! That's why only the Dhamma is our teacher!! .... > > For the same reason, i.e., with my stubborn and rebellious nature, when I write something about what I am doing it is the descriptive account and not a prescriptive account (if I may borrow the words from Phil). So please do not say that I am wrong and try to correct me. It will be the waste of time, because I will not change my position whether it is right or wrong. .... S: :-)) we all think the way we do by conditions - none of it atta! Metta Sarah ======= #112758 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3b sarahprocter... Hi Pt, A little behind here:-) #109704, just checking the quotes you kindly gave from the Vism, but difficult for me to follow because the Pali hasn't come out clearly. If you have time, would you kindly re-post it with the Pali in velthius? I think it may useful. Wishing you a happy holiday season, even though you're so far from your family. Still, Dhamma's the best company! Look f/w to seeing you when we get back to Syd. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > The Vsm passage for peace: > > 1. I think this is the related Pali bit: > > Vsm, book 2, chapter 14: > 463. Ä€rammaṇe cittaṃ samaṃ Ädhiyati, sammÄ vÄ Ädhiyati, samÄdhÄnamattameva vÄ etaṃ cittassÄti samÄdhi. So avisÄralakkhaṇo, avikkhepalakkhaṇo vÄ, sahajÄtÄnaṃ sampiṇá¸anaraso nhÄniyacuṇṇÄnaṃ udakaṃ viya, upasamapaccupaá¹­á¹­hÄno, visesato sukhapadaá¹­á¹­hÄno, nivÄte dÄ«paccÄ«naṃ á¹­hiti viya cetaso á¹­hitÄ«ti daá¹­á¹­habbo. > > 2. Nanamoli translation: > 139. (viii) It puts (Ädhiyati) consciousness evenly (samaá¹) on the object, or it puts it rightly (sammÄ) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samÄdhÄna) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samÄdhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught. > > 3. In Pe Maung Tin translation, XIV, page 543, the related bit is: > "...and peace of mind as manifestation." > > > The Vsm passage for coolness: > > 4. I think this is the related Pali excerpt: > > Vsm, book 2, chapter 14: > 470. KÄyassa passambhanaṃ kÄyapassaddhi. Cittassa passambhanaṃ cittapassaddhi. KÄyoti cettha vedanÄdayo tayo khandhÄ. Ubhopi panetÄ ekato katvÄ kÄyacittadarathavÅ«pasamalakkhaá¹‡Ä kÄyacittapassaddhiyo, kÄyacittadarathanimaddanarasÄ, kÄyacittÄnaṃ aparipphandanasÄ«tibhÄvapaccupaá¹­á¹­hÄnÄ, kÄyacittapadaá¹­á¹­hÄnÄ. KÄyacittÄnaṃ avÅ«pasamakarauddhaccÄdikilesapaá¹­ipakkhabhÅ«tÄti daá¹­á¹­habbÄ. > > 5. Nanamoli translation: > XIV,144. (xvi)-(xvii) The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body. The tranquillizing of consciousness is tranquillity of consciousness. And here body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs. 40). But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of > the [mental] body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the [mental] body and of consciousness. Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness. > > 6. In Pe Maung Tin translation, XIV, pg 544, the related bit is: > ...the manifestation of an unwavering and cool state of both... *** Metta Sarah ======== #112759 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:11 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, On kamma and accumulations #112515 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Referencing what you said above, what is the difference between the "deeds" and the "mental activity" and what kinds of results do each bring? .... S: It is always the *mental activity*, in particular, the intention that arises in the javana processes, called kamma, which is of a particular degree, kamma patha, (such as that involved in killing etc) that brings about particular results. As a generalisation, the stronger the kamma, the greater the result. If we have some attachment now when we write, this attachment will not bring about results, it will merely accumulate. To go to the other extreme, if there is such strong kamma now that we kill another person, this will bring about a result such as rebirth in a woeful plane and subsequent results by way of the experiencing of unpleasant objects through the senses. No one but a Buddha can understand all the intricacies, but by reading the stories in the Jatakas and Therii-theragatha, we get the idea as long as we don't take the deeds and the results for people in actuality! .... >I think Jon was saying fairly strongly that in a sense there were no deeds, or at least they were not significant, and only mental events really qualified as kusala or akusala, which I assume would also create kusala or akusala kamma...? ... S: Yes - kusala and akusala cittas, kusala and akusala kamma which conditions various rupas which we call deeds or speech. ... > > And maybe you can help me understand what happens to this intention once the intention/act takes place, and how it leads to future vipaka, and what kinds of tendencies or accumulations leads to kamma in the future. ... S: Now, if the intention (kamma) is strong enough, fulfilling particular conditions, it will bring results in future. The seeing and hearing now are conditioned by past kamma. The Buddha taught about 3 rounds - a) kamma, b)vipaka, c)kusala and akusala ... > I guess I'm confused about how earlier kammas or accumulations give rise to events in the present. There must be a describeable set of types of conditions, such as decisive support condition [which I also don't understand too well] which come together to cause a delayed event to arise at a given time. ... S: Yes, exactly. There are many support conditions, especially decisive support condition, which determine how and when past kamma will bring its particular result(s). Again, we need to think in terms of dhammas, not deeds and events. For example, past kamma conditions this moment of seeing. It conditioned the first birth citta of life and it will condition the last death citta of life. These are moments of consciousness, not "events". .... >When I say "arbitrary" I don't mean it's necessarily *really* arbitrary, but that's it's hard to see why a moment of akusala arises here, a moment of panna arises there. ... S: We can just know it's because of conditions and in particular, tendencies for such. Out of the blue, we may get angry. It's anatta and depends on the latent tendency for such anger. Metta Sarah ======== #112760 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quotations with a Religous Spin nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 26-dec-2010, om 21:32 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > The search for truth, the practice of the Perfection of Truth, is > more than just > refraining from the telling of lies; it runs with the Perfection of > Wisdom and > also certainly entails trying to see all things for what they > really are, not > just as they may appear to be like, discovering the truth > underneath in so many > matters. ------ N: Good you give religious spins. This is worth considering, . It appears that we see people, we live in the world of conventional truth all the time, instead of realising paramattha dhammas. ------ I shall add some passages from Kh Sujin's book on the Perfections, the Perfection of Truthfulness. ------- ------- -------- Nina. #112761 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:29 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, contd #112515 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > For instance, to use a worldly analogy, if I see someone every day and they do something irritating to me, a recurrent sort of thing that annoys me, and I feel anger but I don't express it, this builds up over time, and then when one more irritating event occurs I explode and yell at the person. To the other person it may seem that it came out of nowhere, as they were unaware that I was annoyed in the first place and that this was building up. I can see this as a good analogy for a "tendency" or "accumulation" that would eventually express itself as a discernible event, when before it was only experienced below the surface. ... S: Yes, you've put that well. ... > >R: Or if I have an insight into something, an "aha" moment - maybe for me it would be understanding how a car motor works, or something equally foreign to me, there would be a series of related moments. It may be that I looked at the spark plugs and the carburator several times but never saw how they were connected, and one day it comes together and I see how the thing works. That might be an analogy for accumulation of panna and it coming forward as an experience at a later time after a number of exposures, efforts, contemplations, etc. ... S: Yes ... >R: So I wonder if the types of moments - kusala, akusala, panna, moha and dosa - that may arise later than the conditions that form them, or may accumulate over time, have some sort of sensible relation to events like the examples above. ... S: Again, if we read the commentaries we can learn how kusala now accumulates and may condition the performing of particular deeds at anytime. We take an interest in the Buddha's teachings now because of accumulated kusala including panna in the past, maybe aeons ago. I think it's distracting and unhelpful to try to find out exact details of kamma - better to consider how conditions operate in general. ... >R: If I pacify the breath and it leads to greater calm, why does this in itself not qualify as samatha? Is there an additional necessary characteristic that samatha has other than calm? ... S: The question is whether it is kusala or akusala calm. If it is kusala calm, the object is a concept wisely reflected on. At a moment of dana, giving, there is samatha. One is showing kindness to another being. At the moment of attempting to pacify the breath, what is kusala about it? ... > > I understand that calm + understanding is better than just calm, especially as regards the Buddhist path, but I am just wondering what makes it samatha as opposed to generic calm. ... S: Unless there is the development of understanding, there's no way to know whether it is calm (samatha) as opposed to a conventional idea of calm. With regard to breath, I think I wrote about this at length before according to my understanding:-) ... >Usually I see samatha spoken of as separate from insight, that they are two factors to be developed in order to reach a better mental state, but that insight does not have to be a component of samatha, as opposed to an accompaniment, or a separate arising once samatha has been established. Whereas a lot of discourses seem to talk about establishing jhana and then establishing insight in relation to jhana, you seem to turn it around and say that insight is a condition for samatha. Is that right? .... S: Samatha is passaddhi cetasika, a mental factor. When there is any kusala, including insight, there is samatha. So, yes, there can be samatha arising without insight. > ... > >R: Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate your clear understanding and communication. When I re-read some of what I wrote, I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with myself, but I also enjoy these exchanges very much. .... S: Likewise. Pls continue to be patient with long delays on my part! Metta Sarah ======== #112762 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, #112516 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Sarah. > Part II of this reply, breaking down kamma and vipaka a bit more. > > S: There is nothing arbitrary about the way in which conditions work or the way in which present dhammas are conditioned to arise. > > > We need to distinguish between those dhammas primarily conditioned by past kamma, such as seeing or hearing, > >R: Here I think you are saying that sense experiences are primarily conditioned by past kamma. .... S: Yes. .... > > >S: and those dhammas which accumulate, even now as we speak. > > > Examples of these are the kusala and akusala cittas and cetasikas. > >R: Here you are saying that kusala and akusala cittas and cetasikas accumulate [kamma?] .... S: Yes. .... > > >S: So we can say that attachment or aversion or wisdom accumulate, > >R: Here you are identifying cetasikas[?] which accumulate kusala or akusala within the citta...? .... S: Yes. .... > > >S: but we cannot say that the sense experiences, vipaka cittas, accumulate. > >R: Here you are saying that sense experiences do not themselves accumulate qualities, that rather - I think you are saying - they are the result [vipaka] of past kammas and accumulations...? ... S: Result of past kammas only ... > >R: My conclusion so far is that sensory experience is vipaka - the result of accumulations and kamma, while cittas and cetasikas do accumulate kamma, which continues to roll out further kamma and corresponding vipaka in the future...? .... S: Excellent! .... > >R: Still not sure how accumulations eventually pop out in vipaka. How does a particular experience of seeing or hearing relate to the accumulations of kusala or akusala cittas and cetasikas? .... S: There is only a "pop out" if the intention (kamma) is strong enough to be of the degree of kamma patha. For example, there may be a fleeting idea of killing a bug, but it's not kamma patha unless the intention is strong enough that one actually kills that bug. The kusala or akusala cittas and cetasikas arise on account of what seen or heard. The seeing or hearing are vipaka (result of kamma), but there may be such attachment or annoyance on account of what is seen or heard that more kamma is produced. We think we see an annoying bug, but only visible object is actually seen! How absurd to be infatuated or maddened by what is just experienced momentarily through the senses! That's why the understanding of seeing, visible object and so on leads to true calm and detachment and the eradication of akusala kamma. The sotapanna will no longer have any idea of killing the bug. .... > >R: Also, just a question of confusion: what is the difference between kammas and accumulations? It seems that both can accumulate. Are they two different things? ... S: All kinds of mental states, including cetana, accumulate. Sankhara khandha - all cetasikas apart from vedana and sanna - conditioned, accumulating mental factors. Kamma (sankhara) refers in particular to cetana. As we read in Dependent origination - avijja conditions sankhara (past kamma) which conditions vinnana (birth citta and subsequent moments of vipaka). .. > > S: Not quite. Present kusala is *not* the kammic result of past kusala at all. Present kusala arises because kusala has been accumulated in the past. > >R: What exactly is the difference here? How does past kusala lead to further kusala? Why is kamma the wrong term to use for this relation? ... S: Remember that "kammic result" is vipaka - moments of seeing, hearing and so on. Kusala arises in subsequent javana processes on account of such vipaka. It is the "active reaction". ... > >S: The main condition for it's arising is natural decisive support condition. > >R: What is it that has natural decisive support condition to cause kusala to arise? Is it the natural support of kusala that has already been developed, or some other factors? .... S: The kusala, the akusala now will be the nat decisive support condition for more of the same in future. ... > > >S: In this way, we can see the distinction between results of kamma which have been conditioned by past kamma,... > >R: That would be vipaka, I guess. ... S: Yes. ... > > >S:...such as the sense experiences, sometimes called "passive" > >R: So again, you are affirming that sensory experience is the result of kamma and is passive vipaka, meaning, I guess, that it happes purely as a result of past kamma... ... S: Yes. ... > > >S: ...and the "active" responses, the kusala or akusala that accumulates on account of/in reaction to these experiences. > >R: So one reacts to experience, which experience is itself vipaka related to past kamma; and new kamma develops based on the intentions that arise in response to this vipaka, whether it is kusala or akusala. These reactions give rise to present kamma - or are present kamma - and plants seeds for future vipaka. .... S: Excellent! Pls keep this for your reference:-) ... > >R: Could you say a bit more about why seeing and hearing are passive vipaka - is it because they are a kammic dead end, not themselves resulting in any further kamma? ... S: Yes, you could put it like that. ... R:> And a bit more about why the kusala/akusala reactions to experience are "active" vipaka - is it because they lead to further kamma due to their leading to new intentional formations? ... S: They are not vipaka. Just "active" kusala/akusala and yes, they lead to further kamma except for the arahat who has eradicated ignorance and has no more kusala/akusala or kamma. .... > > Great information, and fun to try to figure out what you are saying! :-) ... S: I appreciate your efforts in this regard. I like the way you reformulate in your own good words. Metta Sarah ============ #112763 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Calm, no 4. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Wishing you and Rita the best for the holiday period and New Year! I expect you have lots of snow in NY now as well! #112458 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: H:> Our > seeing needs to be true seeing and not the result of inculcation. > --------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes. .... >>S: The Buddha taught us to develop such insight at the present moment, > regardless of the conventional circumstances we might find ourselves in? Is there > ever a choice at this moment for the seeing or hearing to be other than > that which has been conditioned already? > ------------------------------------------------------------ >H: And is willing and preparation not part of that conditioning, for good > and for ill? > ------------------------------------------------------------ ... S: Can that "willing and preparation" be anything other than conditioned dhammas too? Of course, the "willing and preparation" can be for good or for ill and only understanding, wisdom can know. Metta Sarah ======= #112764 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:47 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your feed-back. > [Sarah]: Can I ask you a qu? Why do you want to make sure there are no "stray thoughts" entering your mind then or even now? Assuming there are stray thoughts now, what does the Mahasatipatthana Sutta say about them? according to your understanding [Han] My understanding of Mahaasatipa.t.thaana sutta is just what is mentioned in the books. When a stray thought enters my mind, I must know (pajaanaati) that a stray thought enters my mind. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu saraaga.m vaa citta.m "saraaga.m citta"nti pajaanaati, viitaraaga.m vaa citta.m "viitaraaga.m citta"nti pajaanaati. Here, a monk knows a lustful mind as lustful mind; a mind free from lust as free from lust. Han: The trouble with me [I said *with me*, may not be with other people] is that I have to *know* more evil thoughts when "on-cushion" than when "off-cushion". So I do not benefit from it. Here, I must say categorically that it was my failure, and not the technique. I do not have enough patience, concentration and understanding to overcome the stray thoughts that enter my mind. Therefore, I am looking for an alternative. If I cannot conquer the stray thoughts by *knowing* them, I will have to block them, as much as possible, from entering my mind. When I read the Dhamma books, or listen to Dhamma tapes, or reflect on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with the prayer beads, the sense objects and mental objects generated by these activities are strong enough to ward off all other thoughts, including the evil thoughts. My aim is to have less evil thoughts as possible *then* and *now*. Of course, the *now* is more difficult, as it needs more concentration. Respectfully, Han #112765 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Robert) - In a message dated 12/27/2010 4:11:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: >I think Jon was saying fairly strongly that in a sense there were no deeds, or at least they were not significant, and only mental events really qualified as kusala or akusala, which I assume would also create kusala or akusala kamma...? ... S: Yes - kusala and akusala cittas, kusala and akusala kamma which conditions various rupas which we call deeds or speech. ================================== Sarah, you did something very well here that you may not have realized: Without denying bodily and speech deeds/actions, you have defined them (as "various rupas"). Of course, we all know that deeds do not constitute some new category of phenomena, but it is good, clarifying actually, to explicitly state their nature, for what is known just implicitly can only be half known, and making it explicit removes murkiness. The only thing that I think might have been further emphasized in the definition is that the rupas be *fairly directly* intention-induced: An itch on the hand would *not* be a deed even though it is, I presume, vipaka, but the motion that is the scratching of the itch, *would* be a deed. The smelling of baking bread, though vipaka I think, would not be a deed, but opening the oven door in order to get a better smell of it would be. An involuntary groan from pain in a hospital bed after surgery is probably not "a deed," but calling for a nurse or pressing a button to release some analgesic would be. I also wonder whether a bodily deed must not always involve movement. Can you think of examples of physical deeds that do not involve movement? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112766 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Calm, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/27/2010 4:56:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Wishing you and Rita the best for the holiday period and New Year! ------------------------------------------ Thanks, Sarah! The same to you and Jon! :-) ------------------------------------------ I expect you have lots of snow in NY now as well! ------------------------------------------ We do indeed, though it might have been worse in our part of Long Island. The storm, pretty much over now (at 8:50 a.m., E.S.T.), left only about 9" on the ground where we are. But the drifts are significant, because there were very high winds. While underway, the storm itself was dramatic, with the high winds (sustained 30-35 mph, with 55 mph gusts) blowing the snow sideways, and accompanied by lots of rolling thunder. ----------------------------------------- #112458 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: H:> Our > seeing needs to be true seeing and not the result of inculcation. > --------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes. .... >>S: The Buddha taught us to develop such insight at the present moment, > regardless of the conventional circumstances we might find ourselves in? Is there > ever a choice at this moment for the seeing or hearing to be other than > that which has been conditioned already? > ------------------------------------------------------------ >H: And is willing and preparation not part of that conditioning, for good > and for ill? > ------------------------------------------------------------ ... S: Can that "willing and preparation" be anything other than conditioned dhammas too? --------------------------------------------------- Of course it cannot. Nothing arises unconditioned. -------------------------------------------------- Of course, the "willing and preparation" can be for good or for ill and only understanding, wisdom can know. Metta Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112767 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:14 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Sarah. I enjoyed getting this message just at this time, and will reply to your comments on snow and samatha below! :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > Hope you've been having a relaxing xmas with your family - sounds like a lot of snow your way too! Friends everywhere are telling us about the joys of back-pack shopping. Well, that's how we shop all the time! A friend of mine has just moved to Washington DC because she was tired of the pollution in Hong Kong. As I write, I'm looking at a beautiful blue and sunny sky here.... Ha ha, well, as you predicted, I have run into more snow than I expected. I traveled away from the relatively clear weather in DC with my family to spend about a week in New York, and everything was fine. I even toyed with the idea of trying to see Howard - so far every time I come to NY it's too short and I can't plan any visits of my own; but in any case yesterday NY City was hit by an enormous blizzard. Because we were not far from my parents' apartment where we stay in NY [they have a small condo in DC near us as well, and that's where they are now] we got back from a Broadway matinee by taxicab and that worked out fine. It took a long time with traffic and whizzing snow and wind, but we got back okay. Last night after dark, we had high winds blowing the snow everywhere - couldn't see in front of one's face, but from my parents' little terrace the snowy mist was suffused with light and was beautiful - reminded me of the idea of the nimita - you know there are real objects out there, but they appear as a lovely blur. Today we discovered that planes are grounded, the trains had all stopped and cars and busses were left stranded in the streets. My wife and I went out for a snowy exercise walk this afternoon and we found a bus ploughed into the side of the road and left there, we walked over snowbanks and actually had a great time tromping through the snow for an hour or so. [Have to get exercise under all conditions or the belly starts to precede me, and sometimes threatens to exceed me.] > > > 8. Thet Oo - his aim is to have more calmness, whereas for us, the aim is to develop more understanding of whatever dhamma is conditioned. If one is so concerned about calmness, one becomes very concerned about being agitated or about a lack of calm at the present moment. > > > >R: I just picked out this one topic, which interests me a lot. I don't think Buddha was opposed to developing samatha for its own sake, as it is kusala and leads to pleasure that is removed from attachment to sensory cravings, so I think to that extent it is all good. > .... > S: Hmmm, I understand him to have taught the development of satipatthana leading to the end of samsara. At moments of satipatthana, there is samatha, calm and this is much purer. I like to hit the Dhamma from all angles - if I can get a little samatha going - real or otherwise - to give the little cittas a break from big and little sufferings, I'm all for it! If satipatthana arises however, I will not reject it! :-) > Yes, he taught that all kinds of bhavana, including samatha bhavana are kusala and to be praised as such. Do we really know what samatha is? For example, whilst relaxing in savasana (corpse pose) at the end of our yoga classes, is it really samatha? If so, in what way is it kusala? Yes, it feels very calm, very relaxing, very peaceful, very pleasant. None of this makes it kusala or true calm. Of course, there can be moments of true samatha, true calm then as now or whilst relaxing with your family, but it requires understanding to know whether it's truly kusala, not a nice feeling about a particular situation as I see it. I understand what you are saying, and as you say further below we disagree a little bit about this, not completely. I agree that we can be fooled into false calm, suppressive calm, clinging calm, addictive calm, all kinds of bad calm and that it is necessary to discern the real calm from the false calm; but where I think we may disagree a little is that I think you do not think we have the ability to tell the difference until a high level of distinguishing kusala from akusala is developed. I think that a lot of times if we "take a look" we can see where there are still disturbances within the calm, and when there is unwholesome stuff going on within an otherwise "nice" state of relaxation or happiness. That is where I think we disagree, where it seems like an "all or nothing" type of proposition and that only someone highly advanced has any hope of experienceing a kusala state. I just think kusala is available - maybe it is coarse kusala, or interrupted kusala, but I think at times if you have a nice yoga session and you have a calm deep relaxation that it really can be real samatha and really kusala. Why not just accept the good things when they come, rather than think it's not quite the real thing yet? I think the developmental path demands that we look at little increments of kusala, samatha and insight, and appreciate them, rather than wait for complete satipatthana to appear. > .... > >R:However, I agree with you very much that when there is *attachment* to calm, that causes more problems than it solves. Attachment to calm is almost certain to cause *more* agitation, since every time calm is disturbed, the person attached to calm will become more irritated with the disturbance, and increase the disturbance. With calm as something to cultivate, but accepting the ups and downs which can be looked at with equanimity, that causes more calm even in the midst of disturbance. Hope that makes sense. > ... > S: I think that whenever our aim or wish is to have more calmness, it's unlikely to be calm at such times. Attachment can be very subtle and of course this applies to any wishes. I agree that attachment is probably present much of the time and can also be very subtle, but I still think that kusala moments [or groups of moments] can be discerned at times and be appreciated. > .... > >R: I don't think I'm very good at staying calm, period, but staying aware when calm, and being calm when disturbances arise, I think is positive. > ... > S: I don't think we should be concerned about *staying* calm, aware or anything else. Again, this seems likes clinging to ourselves and our mental states. I think there's a lot of truth in what you say, I just don't see it as absolute. I try to keep an eye out for kusala to sneak in amidst the akusala. > Rob, I know we don't really agree here. If you'd like to raise any more qus for K.Sujin, we'll be back in Bkk next week (!!) en route to Aus again(!!). Thanks, Sarah. I haven't been as good at coming up with questions lately, but I'll see what appears! :-) > p.s Was interested to read about Han's and your ailments - the low blood pressure & dizziness in his case and the choking and so on in yours. I think I can *trump* the *bad deeds in the past* as I suffer from all these! Like you, I have to be careful drinking and also can't swallow pills. I also sip green tea throughout the day - I seldom choke on this, unlike other kinds of tea!! And, I think we both might have been in wheel chairs by now if not for our yoga and stretching over the years. This is what I've been told anyway. I have a hip disability and like you, do a lot of stretching on the floor, legs up the wall and so on whilst traveling! I'd encourage all the young here to exercise and stretch! Thanks for sharing that. Hm...we have a lot in common in daily type stuff. Hope we get to meet someday. The green tea and the yoga are very good, and I do have a secret belief that high quality green tea builds up healthy qualities over time. I've now added a whole food vitamin and about 4 different kinds of ginseng, plus gingko and a few other things. As I get just a little older, and not certain of my next rebirth, I'm extending this life to do more work on defilements before I get on the big slide to the next life. I do think those physical difficulties sort of naturally breed a certain kind of mindfulness, rather than taking the moments for granted, but they are not so easy to deal with! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112768 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quotations with a Religous Spin farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, ------ N: Good you give religious spins. This is worth considering, . It appears that we see people, we live in the world of conventional truth all the time, instead of realising paramattha dhammas. ------ Kevin: I agree. N: I shall add some passages from Kh Sujin's book on the Perfections, the Perfection of Truthfulness. ------- ------- -------- Nina. Kevin: Dear Nina, thank you so much for your excellent quotations about sacca, truthfulness. They helped me very much. Have a wonderful day, Kevin #112769 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:31 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. Thanks for these explanations about kamma and vipaka. I am slowly getting a better understanding of the process. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > On kamma and accumulations #112515 > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Referencing what you said above, what is the difference between the "deeds" and the "mental activity" and what kinds of results do each bring? > .... > S: It is always the *mental activity*, in particular, the intention that arises in the javana processes, called kamma, which is of a particular degree, kamma patha, (such as that involved in killing etc) that brings about particular results. As a generalisation, the stronger the kamma, the greater the result. So the intention/mental factors of "hatred" for instance would have to be very strong in order to bring about the experiencing of "killing" and its result for the vipaka cittas. Is that about right? > If we have some attachment now when we write, this attachment will not bring about results, it will merely accumulate. To go to the other extreme, if there is such strong kamma now that we kill another person, this will bring about a result such as rebirth in a woeful plane and subsequent results by way of the experiencing of unpleasant objects through the senses. As you say, the *reality* of "rebirth in a woeful state" is that we go through a period of time in the future in which very unpleasant experiential objects impinge on the senses. You also mention that all seeing and hearing are vipaka. I derive from this that there are no actual objects of seeing and hearing other than the types of dhammas that are produced by particular types of kammas. Would that be on the right track? If we have been conditioned to experience certain rupas such as hardness of a certain kind, texture of ridges, brown and green visual colors, etc., as the concept "tree," and we experience these rupas as pleasant through vedana, then perhaps if we have a preponderence of kusala kammas we will be "born" into a place with nice lawns and pleasant trees, and we will experience those pleasant rupas for a while, until some other kamma kicks in. > No one but a Buddha can understand all the intricacies, but by reading the stories in the Jatakas and Therii-theragatha, we get the idea as long as we don't take the deeds and the results for people in actuality! > .... > >I think Jon was saying fairly strongly that in a sense there were no deeds, or at least they were not significant, and only mental events really qualified as kusala or akusala, which I assume would also create kusala or akusala kamma...? > ... > S: Yes - kusala and akusala cittas, kusala and akusala kamma which conditions various rupas which we call deeds or speech. > ... > > > > And maybe you can help me understand what happens to this intention once the intention/act takes place, and how it leads to future vipaka, and what kinds of tendencies or accumulations leads to kamma in the future. > ... > S: Now, if the intention (kamma) is strong enough, fulfilling particular conditions, it will bring results in future. The seeing and hearing now are conditioned by past kamma. The Buddha taught about 3 rounds - a) kamma, b)vipaka, c)kusala and akusala > ... > > I guess I'm confused about how earlier kammas or accumulations give rise to events in the present. There must be a describable set of types of conditions, such as decisive support condition [which I also don't understand too well] which come together to cause a delayed event to arise at a given time. > ... > S: Yes, exactly. There are many support conditions, especially decisive support condition, which determine how and when past kamma will bring its particular result(s). Again, we need to think in terms of dhammas, not deeds and events. For example, past kamma conditions this moment of seeing. It conditioned the first birth citta of life and it will condition the last death citta of life. These are moments of consciousness, not "events". Well, Buddha spoke clearly about akusala actions and deeds and physical involvements to avoid. There is no way that Buddha meant something other than "don't drink" when he said to avoid alcohol. Unless you can say that he was working backwards from concept to kamma by saying in shorthand to people: "If you avoid the mental factors that would lead you to drink, you will avoid the corresponding kamma and its result." In that sense he could be saying "drinking will give you a bad result" when he really means "akusala leading to the experience of dhammas that you interpret as //drinking// will lead to vipaka that you will interpret as very unpleasant." I am getting a bit of a view of the Abhidhamma universe of one dhamma at a time in a field of anatta events and it is a very weird universe indeed. Nothing exists except these momentary experiences and then they are gone. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #112770 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:02 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > >R: If I pacify the breath and it leads to greater calm, why does this in itself not qualify as samatha? Is there an additional necessary characteristic that samatha has other than calm? > ... > S: The question is whether it is kusala or akusala calm. If it is kusala calm, the object is a concept wisely reflected on. At a moment of dana, giving, there is samatha. One is showing kindness to another being. At the moment of attempting to pacify the breath, what is kusala about it? Well, let's say I have a non-controlling and happy intention to just create more peacefulness - sort of the equivalent of projecting metta - and I just do that. What is akusala about it? It is just a positive intention. I don't have to do it with control and self-view. I can just see that it is a positive thing to do and it is one of the kusala things given by the Buddha. What's wrong with that? > ... > > > > I understand that calm + understanding is better than just calm, especially as regards the Buddhist path, but I am just wondering what makes it samatha as opposed to generic calm. I understand that you would need understanding to make the distinction; but it does not quite describe to me what are the components of true samatha other than peacefulness and a lack of turbulence and disturbance. In that sense "calm is calm," but if there is a special quality of samatha calm that is different than just being peaceful, that special quality has not yet been really described. The only thing I can see as making it different is that a/ it was derived from a non-volitional source; b/ it is accompanied by understanding of kusala; but what is the kusala about it that is being understood? This is not quite made plain. Is it that the calm is not being controlled? Is it that the calm has a specially kusala mental object? And why does that make it more "calm" than ordinary "calm?" Perhaps this could be a topic for K. Sujin, as it continues to "bother" me... > ... > S: Unless there is the development of understanding, there's no way to know whether it is calm (samatha) as opposed to a conventional idea of calm. With regard to breath, I think I wrote about this at length before according to my understanding:-) > ... > >Usually I see samatha spoken of as separate from insight, that they are two factors to be developed in order to reach a better mental state, but that insight does not have to be a component of samatha, as opposed to an accompaniment, or a separate arising once samatha has been established. Whereas a lot of discourses seem to talk about establishing jhana and then establishing insight in relation to jhana, you seem to turn it around and say that insight is a condition for samatha. Is that right? > .... > S: Samatha is passaddhi cetasika, a mental factor. When there is any kusala, including insight, there is samatha. So, yes, there can be samatha arising without insight. > > ... Is there a way to describe samatha as a mental factor? The way it is described in sutta, there is both calming of the physical formation and calming of the mental formation. I think both qualify as samatha, unless I am mistaken. And samatha that brings calm to the level of concentration of different levels of jhana is also a mental factor of a certain kind, but is it the same "samatha" on all levels? To me, it seems that since both physical and mental factors can be "calmed," that samatha is something that can apply to the mental state, but also to the physical state. We already had a good discussion in which the kinds of lack of disturbance and other mental factors that apply in samatha were described in the commentaries, but it still seems that when it comes down to it, calm is something we really naturally understand, whether it applies to body or mind, so this more stringent definition can perhaps be explained a little more... More questions for K. Sujin perhaps on this topic... > >R: Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate your clear understanding and communication. When I re-read some of what I wrote, I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with myself, but I also enjoy these exchanges very much. > .... > S: Likewise. Pls continue to be patient with long delays on my part! :-) Best. Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112771 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:27 am Subject: Re: Quotations with a Religous Spin kenhowardau Hi Kevin, ------------ K: > Religious Commentary on the Founding Fathers! "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" When people with correct understanding do not speak out against misunderstandings, ignorance takes it's foothold in the population of Buddhists.. the only ones invested with the power to preserve its true meaning. ---------------- I think I see what you mean, it is good to have friends who will correct our misunderstandings of the Dhamma. Beyond that, however, I don't see any need for people of good conscience to be speaking out, do you? Ultimately, tyranny is only a moment of conditioned vipakka, and therefore nothing to be worried about. ----------------------- K: > "Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Educate yourself on matters of Dhamma now in this life, for in the next life, you may not be able to hear the teachings and do so. ----------------------- Yes, and understand that there is no control over whether we do, or do not, educate ourselves. ------------------------------- K: > In this time when the Dispensation is dwindling, only education of the correct interpretation of the meaning will ensure it's preservation for coming generations of people. -------------------------------- The good people who perpetuate the true teaching are able to do so only because of panna. ------------------------------------- K: > "Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later" - Benjamin Franklin The kamma we create now, due to our attachment, aversion and delusion, is usually paid for at a later time, or sometime in the next life, or some other one in the distant future. ------------------------------------- And there is no way of stopping vipakka once its conditions have been put in place. "I don't worry about a thing 'cos nothing's gonna turn out right." :-) -------------------------------------------- K: > "If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property" - Thomas Jefferson When people think that attachment and aversion are their friends and helpers in life, they will be destroyed by them through the kamma they create. --------------------------------------------- I prefer to think that the "destruction" occurs there and then - in the moment of akusala. The other destruction (vipakka that might not eventuate until aeons down the track) I can live with. :-) --------------------------------------------------------- K: > "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our civil liberties than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson When we invest our attachment and aversion with power and revolt against those that harm us, for example, being deluded by our attachment and aversion, we do more harm to ourselves than that which sought to harm us in the first place, making fresh new bad kamma in retaliation of some perceived injustice, when the injustice was really only the result of some old kamma (vipaka). ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes, let's not take it personally. ------------------------------- K: > "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not." - Thomas Jefferson The dispensation will be lost when you praise and give to those with the wrong meaning of the letter, and do not praise or support those with the right meaning so that it may flourish. -------------------------------- Yes, but we mustn't forget that right understanding comes first. Right speech and right action etc follow along with it. ------------------------------------ K: > "Question even the existence of a God; if there be one, he must approve of the homage of reason over that of blind-folded fear" - Thomas Jefferson Let reason, understanding, and discernment be your guide. And I leave you with this: "Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom" - Thomas Jefferson The search for truth, the practice of the Perfection of Truth, is more than just refraining from the telling of lies; it runs with the Perfection of Wisdom and also certainly entails trying to see all things for what they really are, not just as they may appear to be like, discovering the truth underneath in so many matters. May all beings be happy. ------------------------------------ Thanks Kevin, a happy new year to you too! Ken H #112772 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > The kusala or akusala cittas and cetasikas arise on account of what seen or heard. The seeing or hearing are vipaka (result of kamma), but there may be such attachment or annoyance on account of what is seen or heard that more kamma is produced. We think we see an annoying bug, but only visible object is actually seen! How absurd to be infatuated or maddened by what is just experienced momentarily through the senses! That's why the understanding of seeing, visible object and so on leads to true calm and detachment and the eradication of akusala kamma. This is a very good statement. One can see how crazy the whole thing is. And if you look at life this way you can see so many instances of people just reacting to reactions and then reacting all over again. I think I noticed myself doing it a number of times in the last 1/2 hour! And yet it seems very difficult to stop. I guess that's the whole thing in a nutshell in a way... > The sotapanna will no longer have any idea of killing the bug. Just out of curiosity, what would the sotapanna do with a deadly bug or snake? Just assume that unless kamma is bad they won't bite him? Or would he carefully collect them and release them in the woods without any harm? I remember that Anders, who was here for a while a few years ago, got in the habit of letting mosquitoes take a little blood from his arm, and then when they had a decent amount he would gently chase them off without harming them. "They have to eat too" he said. :-) I'm not quite at that point...to say the least... > >R: Also, just a question of confusion: what is the difference between kammas and accumulations? It seems that both can accumulate. Are they two different things? > ... > S: All kinds of mental states, including cetana, accumulate. Sankhara khandha - all cetasikas apart from vedana and sanna - conditioned, accumulating mental factors. Kamma (sankhara) refers in particular to cetana. As we read in Dependent origination - avijja conditions sankhara (past kamma) which conditions vinnana (birth citta and subsequent moments of vipaka). When cetana accumulates, is that the same as kamma accumulating? Or is cetana a kind of "pre-kamma" until it is acted upon? > .. > > > S: Not quite. Present kusala is *not* the kammic result of past kusala at all. Present kusala arises because kusala has been accumulated in the past. > > > >R: What exactly is the difference here? How does past kusala lead to further kusala? Why is kamma the wrong term to use for this relation? > ... > S: Remember that "kammic result" is vipaka - moments of seeing, hearing and so on. Kusala arises in subsequent javana processes on account of such vipaka. It is the "active reaction". The picture I am getting is that kamma [the first round of cause] is all mental intention manifesting in the experience of action; then vipaka [the second round of result] is all sensory/experiential, and then the third round of reaction would start with vedana and go from there to mental proliferations and emotions - would that be correct? ... > >R: So one reacts to experience, which experience is itself vipaka related to past kamma; and new kamma develops based on the intentions that arise in response to this vipaka, whether it is kusala or akusala. These reactions give rise to present kamma - or are present kamma - and plants seeds for future vipaka. > .... > S: Excellent! Pls keep this for your reference:-) I will do that! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112773 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I also wonder whether a bodily deed must not always involve movement. > Can you think of examples of physical deeds that do not involve movement? I like your examples, Howard, of deed vipaka and non-deed vipaka. Perhaps the experience of movement with an interpretation of volition = a deed. Without volition, even an experience of movement would be experienced as an "event" rather than an "action." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipaaka. Was: The clansman nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 28-dec-2010, om 7:36 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Sarah: The kusala or akusala cittas and cetasikas arise on account > of what seen or heard. The seeing or hearing are vipaka (result of > kamma), but there may be such attachment or annoyance on account of > what is seen or heard that more kamma is produced. We think we see > an annoying bug, but only visible object is actually seen! How > absurd to be infatuated or maddened by what is just experienced > momentarily through the senses! That's why the understanding of > seeing, visible object and so on leads to true calm and detachment > and the eradication of akusala kamma. > > Rob: This is a very good statement. One can see how crazy the whole > thing is. And if you look at life this way you can see so many > instances of people just reacting to reactions and then reacting > all over again. ------ N: As Sarah says, vipaakacitta is just one short moment. I can add a few things I heard on a Thai tape this morning. I feed Lodewijk with Dhamma as soon as he wakes up. Kh S: All the sense objects appear just for a moment through the relevant doorways and this teaches us that they are very insignificant (paritta dhammas). Through satipa.t.thaana we learn to distinguish the moments of vipaaka from the moments that we think about vipaaka. There are two worlds: the world of paramattha dhammas and the world of conventional truth or concepts. When seeing sees visible object or colour, or when hearing hears sound, there are paramattha dhammas. But when we are thinking stories there is the world of concepts. When we learn to distinguish between these two worlds there will be less defilements. ------- I think the above helps to acquire a better understanding of kamma and vipaaka. We watched on T.V. the snow in New York, much worse than in Holland. Now it is so slippery that we have to stay home. You did not speak about your daughter, did she not join you? Nina. #112775 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 2a sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, contd #109607 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > Sarah: >Sarah: If we understand the Eightfold Path, there's no need to talk > about jhana - less attachment, more understanding > > >Kevin: Is that why the Buddha mentioned it hundreds or thousands (or tens of > thousands) of times? .... S: I think he mentioned all kinds of realities that were being experienced by his listeners. He also mentioned the senses, the sense objects, attachment, aversion and ignorance a lot. Right understanding leads to more and more detachment at this moment - detachment towards whatever is conditioned now. If jhana citta is not conditioned now, why wish to have it or be concerned about it? .... > *** > KS: Samatha and vipassana. No need for extra samatha. What's better? > ============================ > (to the above) > Kevin: What's better? That is just attachment to vipassana or aversion for > lower kusala. All kusala is good (and a support for wisdom). > ============================= S: If there is understanding of what is conditioned now, there's no attachment at such a moment. Kusala is good, but any wish to have it or be a person with more kusala of any kind is not. .... > Sarah: >Sarah: When it's appealing to have breath as object, it's attachment. > > >Kevin: It appealed to anyone who has had the object as their subject. Are they > >attached? ... S: At this moment, if we wish to have breath as object, it's attachment. .... Actually, it's a good and important discussion in which you were responding to KS's comments. Rather than continue with the other points, let me raise the further points you brought up in this post with KS and let's see how she responds to them. Your concerns, issues and comments are ones others often raise too. Thanks again for your feedback, Kevin. Metta Sarah ======= #112776 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3a sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, Best wishes for the holidays and New Year! Back to some old discussions - I was going to reply before, but you were taking a break and then I was slow as usual. You raised some good points. If you find any of my answers below unsatisfactory and would like me to raise any of the points further with K.Sujin next week, I'd be glad to do so. #109597 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > Sarah: Wishing to be calm is not samatha at all, it's wanting to gain something, > not seeing the danger of anatta. > > Kevin: Seeing the drawbacks in an unconcentrated mind is kusala. ... S: There is never an unconcentrated mind. .... > > Sarah: Not understanding the meaning of samatha - all kusala is calm. Calm or > not calm, a reality that can be known. > > Kevin: Yes, all samattha is kusala, one moment at a time. If there a moment > that is not, it is not. .... S: Samatha arises with all kusala. Yes, if it arises it arises, so not a question of *doing* samatha or going somewhere to practice samatha. .... > > Sarah: Parts of the body - while trying, not understanding. > > Kevin: Dear Sarah, is that why the Visuddhimagga says to recite verbally first > and only later mentally? That is trying. And if you want to recite verbally > before it arises naturally you have to try to keep reciting aloud. You should > meditate in a certain order. For example, the first tetrad forwards, as in head > hair, body, nails, teeth and then skin, and then backwards as in skin, teeth, > nails, body hair, head hair. Does that arise naturally or do you have to try to > do it? .... S: Now, at this moment, if we recite the parts of the body forward and backwards, what is the kusala involved? What is the understanding? What is the calm? .... > > Sarah: He doesn't know that panna can arise and know any reality at anytime. > > Kevin: That is a far cry from reality. That is all I will say on that point. I > understand it both theoretically and "experientially". ... S: The point was that when there is a precise understanding of realities, there is no interest in pursuing any activities in order for it to arise. .... > Sarah: All realities can be the object of right understanding. Who can stop the > moment of samatha? *Who can plan to sit or select an object?* > > Kevin: No one does. > > Sarah: The dhammas involved are already conditioned. For example, who is > thinking about seeing while seeing has arisen and fallen away? Many moments > like this all day, no self that can select an object. > > Kevin: No one is arguing that some self selects objects. It is all anatta. Do > you select whether to buy a Jeep or a sedan when you buy a car? There is a > decision. Just because a decision is made doesn't mean it is made by atta! It > is the same with selecting a subject of meditation-- it is an anatta process, > like all are. ... S: Yes, so if we understand dhammas as anatta, there's no idea of being able to select any dhammas. One knows that at moments of buying the Jeep, there are just different conditioned dhammas. ... > > Sarah: (Btw, Kevin, a discussion the other day about whether arahats and > pacceka buddhas can kill themselves - impossible. Rob K had the example he'd > seen in a commentary about pacceka buddhas killing themselves before the birth > of the bodhisatta, but KS said this was all impossible and they wouldn't know > when the bodhisatta would be born. Is it a Mahayana commentary, we wondered?) > > Kevin: So Rob K. said he had seen it in a Commentary but Khun Sujin says it is > impossible. So then you just write it off as impossible, closed case, just > because K Sujin says so? .... S: No, not "just because K.Sujin says so". I had already given the same answer before it was raised with K.Sujin. An arahat would not take their own life. .... >You wonder if the Commentary was Mahayana but before > checking and finding the Commentary to see for sure, you just write it off as > impossible because KS said so?!? .... S: We saw the commentary the next day and sure enough, an important line had been mis-translated. They were the bones of other pacceka buddhas that were thrown over the cliff, not the last pacceka buddha himself. We need to read and consider carefully and not just follow the text. Metta Sarah ====== #112777 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:33 am Subject: [dsg] Cutting off at feeling ( was Re: Present Moment...) sarahprocter... Hi Herman, Season's greetings to you and Vicki! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > visible object is real, when it is seen. > > ... > > S: True or not true? > > ... > > > >H: True. I'll just flag here that real and true are quite different, though. ... S: It's true that visible object is real! ... > > >H:Yet an idea is not real, when it is > > > thought. > > ... > > S: True or not true? ... >H: Not true. It's a real idea, when it is thought. .... S: Whatever kind of idea it is - whether an idea about a visible object, a sound, a person or a movie, it is only thought about. The Thinking at such times is real. The idea is.....an idea! ... > >S: The thinking at that moment is real and can be known, ... >H: True. > > > >S: but surely the idea is just that - an idea. ... > >H: Yes, it's a real idea. Whether it is true, to any degree, is another matter. .... S: No matter how great the idea, whether it's based on truth or nonsense, it is not a reality. We get lost in our ideas, taking them for realities, but only the thinking (and associated mental factors) is real at such times. ... >H: I think that what you are saying is that thoughts are real, but not true. .... S: No, I'm distinguishing between thinking and thoughts. Thinking is real, thoughts are just thoughts, even if they are great thoughts about the Dhamma. They can never be known by insight because they are only concepts, not realities. Can you direct know 'thought' now? No, only by thinking about it. ... > >S: I think that appreciating the distinction between the real thinking and > > the ideas thought about is one of the major "break-throughs" in the > > understanding of the Dhamma. ... >H: In a meditative environment, true, in a daily-life environment, not true. ... S: What about now at a direct moment of understanding of the reality? ... > >H: Thoughts of oncoming cars, while at the foot of a tree, are not to be > compared to thoughts of oncoming cars when crossing a highway at peak hour. > In the first case such thoughts, any thoughts actually, are symptomatic of > the anxiety and delusion and attachment of monkey mind, in the second case > such thoughts show a degree of understanding of cause and effect. ... S: Regardless of the time and situation, thoughts are just thoughts, concepts that we take again and again for being reality. It makes no difference to the understanding whether one is under a tree or crossing the road. Understanding realities doesn't mean any less attention to cars. Do you think the Buddha would have been incapable of crossing the road if he were alive today? Did he have any difficulty navigating buffaloes or other animals on the path? ... >H: While you're standing on your balcony, looking at the waves, > you are not wet. No need for a towel to dry yourself when only thinking > about water. Nevertheless, your expectation that if you were to go > downstairs, across the road, across the beach and into the water, you would > then be wet, shows quite an accurate understanding of cause and effect, > doesn't it? .... S: It shows that, like everyone else, with or without any wisdom, there is a lot of thinking about different concepts based on what is experienced all day through the senses. Metta Sarah ======= #112778 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:45 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, #112480 on meditation and Meghiya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > >S:Remember Meghiya, the Buddha's attendant who saw a secluded mango grove which he considered perfect for living and meditating alone and for making an effort on the Path in spite of the Buddha's discouragement. Once there, he was overwhelmed by thoughts of sense-desire, ill-will and cruelty. When he returned, the Buddha said" > > > > "When liberation of heart is not fully mature , > >R: Are you saying that one is not supposed to meditate until *after* enlightenment? That wouldn't make much sense, would it, since the development of jhana and insight are on the path *to* enlightenment...? ... S: I'm saying that we can't make any rules in terms of situations. What we can say is that, for anyone, there is one path only, that of satipatthana - the direct understanding and awareness of the present realities. .... > >R: Certainly others who are not yet enlightened have meditated with good results. Maybe he was just saying that since Meghiya was having trouble, he would give him a good rundown of how to work on the problem. > > > Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity." > > > > These five in brief are: > > > > 1. The good friend > > 2. Morality. > > "seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom" > > 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states > > 4. the 4 Right Efforts > > 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. > >R: Well, it seems like a good mix of factors there, to be cultivated either together or in order, depending on how you take the list. I think that one of the ways of developing the 4 Right Efforts can be through meditation for one whose temperament lends itself to this kind of development. And Vipassana is also developed through meditation. .... S: I would say that at moments of satipatthana, the 4 right efforts are being developed anyway. No need for any other kind of effort. This is the highest kind of bhavana or meditation. Vipassana bhavana, the development of insight through satipatthana at this very moment. Nowhere does it say that vipassana means sitting and concentrating on anything. .... > >R: So maybe he was saying to Meghiya that he needed some other sorts of support, but I am not sure if he was dismissing meditation as part of the process, at the right time. ... S: I think he was just describing the favourable conditions, not telling Meghiya to *do* anything. ... > > I note that in the sutta Buddha mentions that "respiration-mindfulness should be cultivated for cutting off (discursive) thinking" in his additional things to cultivate. That's anapanasati, which I'm always happy to see. :-) .... S: I no longer have my texts with me, so will let this rest for now ;-) ... > > And the last verses seem like a meditation instruction to me too, a pretty neat one: > > "Trivial thoughts, subtle thoughts, > Mental jerkings that follow one along: > Not understanding these mental thoughts, > One runs back and forth with wandering mind. > > "But having known these mental thoughts, > The ardent and mindful one restrains them. > An awakened one has entirely abandoned them, > These mental jerkings that follow one along." > > Is the commentary online? I'd enjoy looking at it. ... S: It's not on-line and yes, it's a great text and translation by Masefield. These last verses can be read with the idea of a Self who does this and that or it can be read with the understanding that the Buddha is referring to conditioned dhammas beyond anyone's control:-) Metta Sarah ======== #112779 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:35 am Subject: Feeding the Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: Feeding the Joy Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding & cannot survive without food, even so are the 7 Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they also can only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot survive without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen joy and also feeding of the completion by increase of any already arisen joy? There are mental states that are the originator, maker, producer, root, basis & source for the awakening of joy! Frequently giving careful & rational attention to them, is feeding the arising and gradual fulfillment of joy... And what is the starving that obstructs the emergence of any yet unarisen joy and which also hinders any already arisen joy from reaching sweet fulfillment by development? There are states that are the basis & source for the joy link to awakening ! Not giving frequent careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much & often; is the starving that prevents any unarisen joy from arising and also blocks any already arisen joy from reaching any complete fulfillment by mental meditative training... Comments from the classical commentaries: Elated & ecstatic exultation is the characteristic of the Joy Link to Awakening (Pîti-sambojjhanga). Motivated intentness upon is the purpose of the quality of Joy. Satisfaction lifting any depression is the manifestation of the Joy Link to Awakening. Thinking of Joy makes this state return! This can be utilized by training it! Try now! This reinforcement - in itself - has the capacity to gradually elevate and induce Joy! Therefore is the state of gladness & Joy itself mainspring, basis & source of more Joy… It is the deliberate directing attention to this, again & again, that can produce Joy!!! Further conditions helpful for arising of the Joy Link to Awakening are: 1: Recollection of the supreme and sublime uniqueness of the Buddha... 2: Recollection of the supreme and sublime uniqueness of the Dhamma... 3: Recollection of the supreme and sublime uniqueness of the Sangha... 4: Recollection of the supreme and sublime efficacy of pure Morality... 5: Recollection of the supreme and sublime efficacy of prior Generosity… 6: Recollection of the qualities that gave the devas their divinity... 7: Remembering the stilled silent state of blissful Peace... 8: Avoidance of primitive, violent, angry, rough, and coarse people. 9: Friendship with refined & kind people, who often smile in silent ease. 10: Reviewing by reading many inspiring dhamma discourses like this one. 11: Commitment & resolute determination to elevate the mind by Joy... There is joy joined with thinking and there is joy separated from thinking! Both leads to enraptured advance towards many advantageous states. Awakening is a veritable flood of bliss! <...> Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112780 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:54 am Subject: [dsg] Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, #112447 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >R: I think there's a happy meeting somewhere of bhavana as natural development and bhavana as focused training that is yet not precluded by self-view, but I understand that whatever is undertaken, it arises due to conditions and accumulations, and one can avoid taking credit for it. .... S: Getting there....:-) Apart from the focussed training, we're certainly in agreement here. In Scott's qu to KS, he had particularly asked about *her* experience of when there's sati and not sati. The answer is always in terms of conditioned dhammas, not a particular person's experience. I mentioned to him that I think that the more understanding there is of paramattha dhammas, the less thought or idea there is about *my* or *their* experiences. Just conditioned dhammas that "one can avoid taking credit for", as you nicely put. If you'd like to reformulate the comment into a qu or would like me to raise it as you've written with K.Sujin, I'm also happy to do that. Metta Sarah ====== #112781 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:37:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I am getting a bit of a view of the Abhidhamma universe of one dhamma at a time in a field of anatta events and it is a very weird universe indeed. Nothing exists except these momentary experiences and then they are gone. ==================================== Abhidhamma expresses the view of a series of discrete packets of mental and physical entities, either of zero duration or of very brief duration [It's not clear to me which], and considers them to be "realities" rather than matters of convention I, myself, view these "packets" as of zero-duration and, I view their supposed separateness/discreteness and existence as entities able to be delineated as just a story - a fiction, in actuality. In any case, the sequentiality of the flow of changing physical quality and mental state & activity seems to be a matter of actual experience, and impermanence, ungraspability, insubstantiality, and emptiness seem increasingly clear to me. A modern rabbi, Rami Shapiro, has a book out giving a translation of and commentary on Ecclesiastes in which he notes that the Hebrew word 'hevel' usually translated as 'vanitiy' actually means "breath" or "vapor," and he views Ecclesiastes as describing how to live at peace in a world of constant "impermanence", constant "falling away," and - my favorite - constant "emptying". So, instead of the usual King James "Vanity of vanities ...," Shapiro gives "Emptying upon emptying! Emptying upon emptying! ... Everything is emptying." I like that "emptying" because it is verbal, and combines anatta with anicca. In fact, the radical impermanence of phenomena, the constant emptying, implies the not-self, ungraspable, and uncontrollable aspect of all conceived-of things, it seems to me.. With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #112782 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quotations with a Religous Spin upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/28/2010 1:27:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: I think I see what you mean, it is good to have friends who will correct our misunderstandings of the Dhamma. Beyond that, however, I don't see any need for people of good conscience to be speaking out, do you? Ultimately, tyranny is only a moment of conditioned vipakka, and therefore nothing to be worried about. ==================================== LOLOL! A joke, right? Something to be appreciated in Darfur, by the decimated Native Americans, and by the descendants of those murdered during the Holocaust? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quotations with a Religous Spin nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 28-dec-2010, om 14:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Ken :Beyond that, however, I don't see any > need for people of good conscience to be speaking out, do you? > Ultimately, > tyranny is only a moment of conditioned vipakka, and therefore > nothing to be > worried about. > > ==================================== > Howard:LOLOL! A joke, right? Something to be appreciated in Darfur, > by the > decimated Native Americans, and by the descendants of those > murdered during > the Holocaust? ------ N: Ken, understanding paramattha dhammas does not mean that we do not lead a social life quite naturally and are engaged in politics, speaking out against injustice. We vote to support a political party that goes against discrimination of races and religions. No need to retire from the world, including political life, if one is a lay person. True, so long as there are lobha, dosa and moha there is trouble in the world and we cannot 'manage the world'. But at least we can help even a little with our vote. It is not right to think, 'O, tyranny is only vipaaka.' This is not precise according to paramattha dhammas. Everybody receives the results of his deeds but this does not mean that we should not help others and try to improves the living conditions as much as we are able to. This is included in siila. Siila also includes helping others in word and deed. It is good Kevin brings up these points and Howard's reaction is right. By the way, Howard, very interesting what you wrote about the Hebrew 'hevel', a mere nothing. As I quoted today 'insignificant dhammas', paritta dhammas. Gone immediately. But still, it is kusala to help, also in social life. We learn to help with kusala cittas, to think of politics with kusala cittas. Nina. #112784 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quotations with a Religous Spin upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Ken, Kevin, and all) - In a message dated 12/28/2010 10:25:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: By the way, Howard, very interesting what you wrote about the Hebrew 'hevel', a mere nothing. As I quoted today 'insignificant dhammas', paritta dhammas. Gone immediately. --------------------------------------------------- Yes, what is true is universal, and glimmers of truth are everywhere visible. -------------------------------------------------- But still, it is kusala to help, also in social life. We learn to help with kusala cittas, to think of politics with kusala cittas. ================================== Thanks, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112785 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quotations with a Religous Spin farrellkevin80 Hello Ken, >Kevin: "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to >remain silent" >When people with correct understanding do not speak out against misunderstandings, ignorance takes it's foothold in the population of Buddhists.. the only ones invested with the power to preserve its true meaning. >Ken: I think I see what you mean, it is good to have friends who will correct >our misunderstandings of the Dhamma. Beyond that, however, I don't see any need >for people of good conscience to be speaking out, do you? Ultimately, tyranny >is only a moment of conditioned vipakka, and therefore nothing to be worried >about. > ____________ Kevin: I do. Tyranny here, in this analogy, means ignorance and misunderstanding. So the point is that when we speak out about the wrong path and the right path, it may help clear up ignorance for others ('may' is the key word. It depends on the persons accumulations how they will react to what is heard, however, without hearing the dhamma, they won't have the chance to develop). >Ken: Yes, and understand that there is no control over whether we do, or do not, >educate ourselves... >Ken: And there is no way of stopping vipakka once its conditions have been put >in place. "I don't worry about a thing 'cos nothing's gonna turn out right." >:-) ... >Ken: Yes, let's not take it personally. >Ken: Yes, but we mustn't forget that right understanding comes first. Right >speech and right action etc follow along with it. > Kevin: I agree with all these things. My posts were not meant to be taken in any other way. As a sakadagami, these things are clear in my mind-stream. All the best and thanks for your post, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin #112786 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:46 pm Subject: Re: vipaaka. Was: The clansman szmicio Dear Nina, > N: As Sarah says, vipaakacitta is just one short moment. I can add a > few things I heard on a Thai tape this morning. I feed Lodewijk with > Dhamma as soon as he wakes up. L: This is nice. I whish I could do the same, but usually when I get up I am interested in something else like drinking a cup of coffy and listening to the music. I feel aversion to reading or listening a Dhamma. > Kh S: All the sense objects appear just for a moment through the > relevant doorways and this teaches us that they are very > insignificant (paritta dhammas). L: What is paritta dhamma, could you explained in more detailed way? If we say paritta dhamma, this means that is insiginificant so this is only unconstant fleeting moment of experiencing object and it's gone? Does paritta dhamma indicates there is nothing to cling to. That what we take for conventional life is no more? Through satipa.t.thaana we learn to > distinguish the moments of vipaaka from the moments that we think > about vipaaka. There are two worlds: the world of paramattha dhammas > and the world of conventional truth or concepts. When seeing sees > visible object or colour, or when hearing hears sound, there are > paramattha dhammas. But when we are thinking stories there is the > world of concepts. When we learn to distinguish between these two > worlds there will be less defilements. > ------- L: Does that mean that thinking is pannatti? What's the difference between kamma and vipaka? How can it be differenciated? How can vipaka be learned in life? What about unpleasant mental feeling? When I feel it I dont want it to have. I want more pleasant sensations. best wishes Lukas #112787 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:22 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 szmicio Dear Nina, Han. What is the conection between latent tendencies(anusaya-kilesa?) and upanisayya-paccaya? Best wishes Lukas > > (3) Anusaya-kilesaa is a very fine kilesaa. When kilesaa has not > > been eradicated, the anusaya-kilesaa would settle like sediment in > > the cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a > > paccaya for pariyu.t.thaana-kilesaa to arise. > ------ > N: Latent tendencies are called subtle because they themselves do not > arise, but they are of great strength (thaamagato). They are so > tenacious and stubborn that they settle in each citta as microbes. #112788 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:14 pm Subject: Re: What I heard. Kamma and Vipaaka, 2. szmicio Dear Nina, Can thinking be a vipaka citta? > Kamma and Vipaaka, 2. > > Usually people think of pain as result of kamma, but also seeing, > hearing etc. are results of kamma. L: What is pain? This is only a vipaka that is body-consciousness experiencing four ruupas? This doesnt hurt, but afterwards there are moments of thinking with dosa, and this hurts. Does pain is kamma not vipaka? Best wishes Lukas #112789 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:30 pm Subject: To Han. To Sarah. And others szmicio Han (or anyone) Could you please give some remiders to the uposatha days one or two days before it comes? The problem is a few bhikkhus inform that today is a uposatha or some kind of buddhist's holiday but the give it so sudden so I dont have a time to prepare. I would be greateful if anyone could post from time to time in advance about some important events/holidays so that I can celebrate. Sarah, I think I miss Acharn Sujin discussions, some parts I think. Could you please If have some free time, give me the links to all December usuful discussions with AS? Best wishes Lukas #112790 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Quotations with a Religous Spin kenhowardau Hi Nina, Howard and Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Ken :Beyond that, however, I don't see any > need for people of good conscience to be speaking out, do you? > Ultimately, > tyranny is only a moment of conditioned vipakka, and therefore > nothing to be > worried about. > > ==================================== > Howard:LOLOL! A joke, right? Something to be appreciated in Darfur, > by the > decimated Native Americans, and by the descendants of those > murdered during > the Holocaust? N: Ken, understanding paramattha dhammas does not mean that we do not lead a social life quite naturally and are engaged in politics, speaking out against injustice. -------------- You are right of course, Nina and Howard, but there is a misunderstanding here about the context. Kevin has named his thread "Quotations with a Religious Spin" and I take that to mean "Quotations put into an Abhidhamma context." As we all agree, there are ultimately no people, no Darfur, and no Nazi holocaust etc., and so, ultimately, the only "tyranny" that really exists is one that does so in a single moment of conditioned reality. I saw a way in which unpleasant vipakka-citta might be called tyranny. (In which case there would be no need for corrective action). Kevin saw tyranny more as an akusala citta. (In which case there would be a need of sorts). Either way, we were speaking in an ultimate-reality context, not in a conventional one. It is interesting to note that Kevin and I - when we do speak out on political issues - are always on opposite sides. So it is best for us if we keep it Abhidhamma. :-) Ken H #112791 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Han. To Sarah. And others hantun1 Dear Lukas,  Please click on the following link.  2011 Calendar of Uposatha Days (2554-2555 BE) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/uposatha2011.html  Kind regards, Han #112792 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:19 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? jonoabb Hi Robert E (112585) > You are advocating understanding that there are only momentary dhammas, but the ultimate result of that is to experience the dhamma that is arising now as it actually is. Is that not correct? > =============== J: Well I'm not in fact *advocating* anything ;-)) But yes, as I read the teachings, the understanding spoken of by the Buddha is the understanding of dhammas, meaning of any dhamma that is arsing at the present moment. However, and this was the point of my earlier comment, there is no 'practice' of "experiencing the dhamma that is arising now as it actually is". Only arisen panna can experience a dhamma that is arsing now as it actually is. And that panna is an impersonal mental factor that arises by conditions, conditions that do not include the conscious intention or effort that panna should arise and take a dhamma as object. BTW, I thought you had argued in a previous post that meditation was also about "understanding the arising of dhammas in the moment without any choice" and indeed without there necessarily being a sense of "personal volition" either. In describing this as the "dsg philosophy", you now seem to be suggesting that meditation practice involves something else altogether ;-)) > =============== > Studying and discussing dhamma is also done with the idea of inducing awareness to arise, as it is understood that it is the process by which awareness *is* induced to arise. So if one does that, they are doing it with that intention. The only difference is that pariyatti is considered an intermediate step to direct awareness, but the intention and the reason for undertaking Dhamma study is the same. > =============== J: As I've commented before, studying and discussing dhamma that is done with the idea of inducing awareness to arise would not be a condition for awareness to arise. Besides, as I've also mentioned before, the conditions for the arising of awareness do not include the doing of those or any activities (regardless of the 'purity' if the intention), but rather the hearing of true dhamma and reflecting on what has been heard and understood. I think you'd agree there's an important difference here. In any event, as regards discussing dhamma, you and I are doing that right now. Am I doing it with the intention of inducing awareness to arise? I don't think so. The study of Dhamma can happen out of an appreciation of the value of learning more of what the Buddha taught. > =============== > Both sub-commentarial Abhidhammikas and meditators want to follow the Buddha's path and eventually reach enlightenment. There is just a different assessment of how Buddha said to get there. > =============== J: Yes, but as I see it a different assessment of the (correct) path to enlightenment means a different understanding of the teachings, and particularly an understanding of what it means for dhammas to be anicca, dukkha and anattaa. Jon #112793 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:39 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! jonoabb Hi Robert E (112589) > > J: This interpretation of yours doesn't fit with the teaching elsewhere in the Tipitaka where anicca, dukkha and anattaa are mentioned in the context of dhammas only. > > Do you have a handy citation that I can refer to? > =============== J: See the following citations from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary', entry for 'ti-lakkhana': **************************** The '3 characteristics of existence', or signata, are impermanency (anicca), suffering or misery (dukkha; s. sacca, dukkhatā), not-self (anattā). "Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still remains a firm condition, an immutable fact and fixed law: that all formations [J: sankhaara] are impermanent, that all formations [J: sankhaara] are subject to suffering, that everything [J: dhammaa] is without a self'' (A. III, 134). "What do you think, o monks: Is corporeality (rūpa) permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. - Are feeling (vedanā), perception (saññā), mental formations (sankhāra) and consciousness (viññāna), permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. "But that which is impermanent, is it something pleasant or painful? - It is painful, o Venerable One. "But, of what is impermanent, painful and subject to change, could it be rightly said, 'This belongs to me, this am I, this is my ego'? - No, Venerable One. "Therefore, whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, of all these things one should understand, according to reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I not, this is not my ego' " (S. XXII, 59). "In one who understands eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and all the remaining formations as impermanent, painful and not-self, in him the fetters (samyojana, q.v.) are dissolved" (S. XXXV, 53). **************************** In each case, the 3 characteristics are ascribed to dhammas, not to conventional objects. > =============== > I don't think Buddha dismissed the knowing of the conventional as you do here, because there is a big difference between understanding something in passing, as a kind of mental acknowledgment, and a full grasping of the reality and implications of something. So many times, people have the attitude, "oh yes, I know that people get sick and die," but it is more than obvious that when we are hit by a sickness or when someone close dies, the understanding becomes much more wise and the implications for oneself become much more clear and in fact hit the entire mental and emotional levels like a ton of bricks. This kind of knowing is totally different from being able to recite a list of things that happen in life. > =============== J: Yes, I know what you mean by a "difference between understanding something in passing, as a kind of mental acknowledgment, and a full grasping of the reality and implications of something". But the answer is not to *think* more about the matter, no matter how 'wisely', but to develop an understanding of dhammas as they truly are. It is the ignorance of or wrong view of dhammas that is the root cause of our grasp of the full reality and implications of life being less that perfect. > =============== Likewise, when one fully contemplates the course of life and death, or when the Buddha explains the implications of the events of life as a continuum that has the properties of anicca, anatta and dukkha, he is leading them into a contemplation towards understanding that is totally different and much more profound than their previous thoughts that "everyone knows." Why else would Buddha have such an extensive regimen of corpse contemplations, imagining one's own body in various stages of dissolution, from rotting corpse, to skeleton with flesh, to skeleton without flesh, and then scattered bones, as well as observing actual corpses when handy. :-) Obviously the knowing that comes from this kind of deep contemplation and exposure is far different from merely saying "Oh I know that I will die and my body will rot," as you are implying we "already know" in the conventional realm. > =============== J: There are certain (kusala) recollections that are highly recommended by the Buddha as being conducive to calm (of the samatha kind). But these are not, as a matter of doctrine, prerequisites for the development of awareness/insight. > =============== Yet these contemplations are also both conventional and paramatha. One goes through the whole sequence of what happens to *the body* as *ones own* and this is conventional, though deep and profound. And at the same time when imagining or observing the rotting of the corpse, one may perceive the more microscopic level of dissolution of rupas associated with each stage of rotting. So it is both that the Buddha teaches - deep, profound conventional contemplation, and clear, specific contemplation of dhammas. We do *not* know that we will die and rot. We just "think" we do, in a passing understanding that is neither profound nor comprehending of the Buddha's teaching on life and death. > =============== J: When the Buddha spoke about the contemplation of corpses (as in the Satipatthana Sutta), he was not saying that, as a matter of doctrine, such contemplation was a prerequisite for, or was conducive to, the understanding of dhammas as they truly are. Rather, he was saying that for the person skilled in that kind of contemplation, the development of awareness involved an understanding of dhammas as they truly are (just as for the person not following such a contemplation). Jon #112794 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:42 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! jonoabb Hi Robert E (112589) > =============== > The difference between our interpretations, Jon, is that I accept and incorporate *everything* the Buddha said in the sutta as part of his message, since he said that he teaches *only suffering and the cessation of suffering,* and he said that thus he would not bother to mention anything that was off that topic, though he knew many other things. So he would not mention the conventional level of life and death if he didn't mean what he said about asking us to contemplate it that way. You on the other hand, skip all the Buddha's words on life and death, and skip to the "good part" that you agree with, about how it all breaks down to dhammas. That is only a passing reference in the sutta. Most of it is spent on the conventional teaching! > =============== J: No, I don't "skip all the Buddha's words on life and death" and pay attention only to the paramattha part. The words on life and death have a purpose. But as regards the development of the path to enlightenment, there is no mention in the texts of any stage that is the understanding of conventional matters. > =============== > > J: The idea that the conventional appearances of life should be translated into (seen as?) momentary dhammas is definitely not how I understand the development of the path. > > Well then what do you advise one to do with the conventional teachings that the Buddha gave about life, personhood and death? Ignore them, or pay what kind of attention to them? What should we do with them? They make up a large percentage of the Dhamma. > =============== J: The teachings about conventional reality (life, personhood and death) are also to be understood (but this is not a matter of doing anything with them ;-)). > =============== > Buddha spoke about disappointment, the inability to control the things of life, sickness and death. He taught about incessant rebirth, brought on by craving and ignorance. If one has a treasured object and it is taken away, one feels suffering based on uncontrollability and changeability of reality. If one gets old or sick, one feels sadness, suffering the loss of the body that one once had and still craves. When one is driven by desire, and the object of love rejects one, one feels suffering over the clinging and craving for the desired person. Buddha talked about these kinds of things and said that they were to be seen as non-self because they could not be controlled or directed. He said things like "If this were my self, I could make it do what I wanted it to do," and pointed out that the inability to control the things in our life made them non-self. > =============== J: I do not believe the Buddha ever described these conventional situations as "not-self". I think that term is reserved almost exclusively for dhammas. > =============== > I think that insight will develop and get deeper as one continues to contemplate the things of life. > =============== J: Well that of course depends on your definition of 'insight' ;-)) > =============== As one looks more closely you see them in more detail. > =============== J: If you're referring to conventional 'things in life', there's nothing to be seen. And any 'looking' is nothing more than thinking about. Dhammas, on the other hand, have a characteristic that is capable of being directly discerned by panna. Jon #112795 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:00 am Subject: Re: How can killiing or stealing not be a conventional deed? jonoabb Hi Robert E (112593) > > J: Deeds are not among the dhammas that are spoken about throughout the suttas; whereas mental states are. > > How can you say that? If Buddha says "killing is akusala" or the equivalent, he is saying that the deed of killing is akusala. How is that a mental state? > =============== J: Let me clarify. When I said that deeds were not among the dhammas spoken about throughout the suttas while mental states are, I meant that when dhammas are classified by way of the khandhas, the elements, the ayatanas, etc, there is mention of rupas, cittas and cetasikas (which include the mental states) but no mention of conventional deeds. > =============== If he says that the householder gains merit by meritorious acts of kindness, charity etc., how are those not deeds? I do not understand your reasoning, unless you are saying either that when Buddha speaks of a deed he doesn't really mean it, or unless you are ignoring those passages that don't speak of experiencing dhammas, and speak of acts. But Buddha most certainly spoke of deeds all the time. > =============== J: Yes, the Buddha spoke of deeds all the time, and people and things too for that matter. That is not the issue. The question is whether, when speaking of kusala deeds he was including the akusala cittas that inevitably, for us, arise during the course of any conventional deed. > =============== > > Here's an example, in case you still have doubts. I have excerpted passages that reference deeds and actions: > > Mangala Sutta: Blessings > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.5.nara.html > > ... > > Just to highlight a few clear, unmistakable *deeds* Buddha says are "the greatest blessing" in this sutta: > > meritorious actions > skillful in handicraft > to be of good speech > support mother and father > be engaged in peaceful occupation > generous in giving > to be righteous in conduct > to help one's relatives > to refrain from intoxicants > to listen to the Dhamma > to associate with monks > to have religious discussions > > Is that a good enough list, or do you need more evidence that Buddha spoke directly and fully on kusala and akusala *actions* and *deeds* in the suttas, not just mental states as you state above? > =============== J: Just to repeat, I've not been saying that the Buddha did not speak about actions and deeds. He most certainly did. What I'm saying is that when he spoke about a kusala deed he was alluding only to the kusala mental states that accompany the deed. Jon #112796 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:06 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (112594) > That is included in my analysis above. I said that an otherwise kusala action with akusala intentions was at least partly akusala. The akusala mental state would spoil the kusala action. > =============== J: To put it another way, if there was no accompanying kusala there could be no kusala vipaka resulting nor could there be even the accumulation of the kusala quality associated with the (so-called) kusala deed. In other words, there'd be no kusala aspect to the deed whatsoever. > =============== > In my last post to you I mentioned one sutta that spoke of 10 or 20 categories of kusala actions. I'm sure there are plenty more. Anyway, I don't think it's rocket science. Drinking intoxicants is akusala. Drinking lemonade is probably okay. Killing - bad. Acts of kindness - good. etc. > =============== J: Consider the following instances: Drinking intoxicants: Taking medicine that included alcohol need not necessarily involve akusala Drinking lemonade: If the taste is to our liking, the mental state will be attachment, and if not to our liking, aversion. Where would the kusala be? Acts of kindness: 'Kindness' is a reference to a kusala mental state. > =============== > > > The point is that a deed can be akusala in its own right, not dependent on an akusala mental state. I believe that killing of others is *always* wrong according to the Buddha, notwithstanding this or that mental state. > > > =============== > > > > J: I don't think so. Deliberately taking the life of another always involves an akusala mental state. > > I just said, killing is *always* akusala. Quote: "I believe that killing of others is *always* wrong according to the Buddha..." That was me, just above. You are not disagreeing with me. > =============== J: I was responding to the first sentence in the quoted passage, namely, that " a deed can be akusala in its own right, not dependent on an akusala mental state". Apologies for the confusion. Jon #112797 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:05 pm Subject: Rejoicing Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: Mutual Joy cures all vicious Envy and Jealousy! The dear companion can be the proximate cause for Mutual Joy, where one rejoices in another being's success... One thus rejoicing in others fortune is called a 'boon companion', for he is constantly glad: He laughs first and speaks afterward! So he should be the first to be pervaded with gladness. Or on seeing a dear person being happy, cheerful and glad, mutual joy can be aroused thus: 'See this being is indeed glad! How good, how excellent!' Just as one would be glad at seeing a dear and beloved person very happy, exactly so does one pervade all other beings in all directions with mutual joy... Rejoicing mutual joy can also be aroused by remembering other's happiness in the past and recollecting the elated joy aspect in this way: 'In the past he had great wealth, a great following and he was always glad'. Or mutual joy can be aroused by apprehending the future glad aspect of his in this way: 'In the future he will again enjoy similar success and will go about in gold palanquins, on the backs of elephants or on horseback'. Having thus aroused mutual joy regarding a dear person, one can then direct the very same feeling successively towards a neutral one, and gradually towards any hostile person. Vbh 274, Vism I 316 Comments: Mutual joy causes Contentment! No mutual joy thus means Discontentment… Therefore: If being generally dissatisfied, then be happy over others gains! Secondly: Mutual joy causes all envy & jealousy to evaporate into equanimity! Mutual Joy (Muditâ), which cures all envy and jealousy, is a divine state! Rejoicing Bliss = Mudita, Infinitely_Joyous_Consciousness , Mutual_Joy Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Rejoicing Joy! #112798 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipaaka. Was: The clansman epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Rob: This is a very good statement. One can see how crazy the whole > > thing is. And if you look at life this way you can see so many > > instances of people just reacting to reactions and then reacting > > all over again. > ------ > N: As Sarah says, vipaakacitta is just one short moment. I can add a > few things I heard on a Thai tape this morning. I feed Lodewijk with > Dhamma as soon as he wakes up. That sounds very good. :-) > Kh S: All the sense objects appear just for a moment through the > relevant doorways and this teaches us that they are very > insignificant (paritta dhammas). Through satipa.t.thaana we learn to > distinguish the moments of vipaaka from the moments that we think > about vipaaka. There are two worlds: the world of paramattha dhammas > and the world of conventional truth or concepts. When seeing sees > visible object or colour, or when hearing hears sound, there are > paramattha dhammas. But when we are thinking stories there is the > world of concepts. When we learn to distinguish between these two > worlds there will be less defilements. > ------- > I think the above helps to acquire a better understanding of kamma > and vipaaka. Yes, it is very helpful - I like the fact that the "paramatha dhammas" are at the same time "paritta dhammas." The ultimate building blocks of our reality are insignificant in their meaning and brevity. They perform a function and are gone. > We watched on T.V. the snow in New York, much worse than in Holland. > Now it is so slippery that we have to stay home. You did not speak > about your daughter, did she not join you? Sorry to leave her out - my daughter was very much present, and she enjoys going to New York very much. We spent some time looking at the snow together, and trying to photograph the whirling wind and snow that came up to the 15th floor terrace where we were. It looked more exciting in person. All in all she had a very good time. We took her to a Broadway play that was really pure drama - no entertainment for kids, but she liked it a lot and I admire the fact that she can get involved with an adult story. The play was a pretty good description of the First Noble Truth of suffering. It was about a photojournalist who covers one war after another, and how that affects her life and relationships. On a lighter note, we went to the Hershey store in Times Square, and saw about 100 different kinds of chocolate; some bars of chocolate that were larger than one's head. So we experienced craving as well. :-) It was a very nice time! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112799 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:58 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > #112480 on meditation and Meghiya > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > >S:Remember Meghiya, the Buddha's attendant who saw a secluded mango grove which he considered perfect for living and meditating alone and for making an effort on the Path in spite of the Buddha's discouragement. Once there, he was overwhelmed by thoughts of sense-desire, ill-will and cruelty. When he returned, the Buddha said" > > > > > > "When liberation of heart is not fully mature , > > > >R: Are you saying that one is not supposed to meditate until *after* enlightenment? That wouldn't make much sense, would it, since the development of jhana and insight are on the path *to* enlightenment...? > ... > S: I'm saying that we can't make any rules in terms of situations. What we can say is that, for anyone, there is one path only, that of satipatthana - the direct understanding and awareness of the present realities. > .... > > > >R: Certainly others who are not yet enlightened have meditated with good results. Maybe he was just saying that since Meghiya was having trouble, he would give him a good rundown of how to work on the problem. > > > > > Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity." > > > > > > These five in brief are: > > > > > > 1. The good friend > > > 2. Morality. > > > "seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom" > > > 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states > > > 4. the 4 Right Efforts > > > 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. > > > >R: Well, it seems like a good mix of factors there, to be cultivated either together or in order, depending on how you take the list. I think that one of the ways of developing the 4 Right Efforts can be through meditation for one whose temperament lends itself to this kind of development. And Vipassana is also developed through meditation. > .... > S: I would say that at moments of satipatthana, the 4 right efforts are being developed anyway. No need for any other kind of effort. Well, this is a small area of disagreement as to whether meditation increases the development of mindfulness towards satipatthana. I don't put as much stock as you do in the idea of finding satipatthana arise from pure study alone. > This is the highest kind of bhavana or meditation. Vipassana bhavana, the development of insight through satipatthana at this very moment. If it happens without any control or planning, then that is wonderful. But if satipatthana does not arise spontaneously after 1 or 10 or 20 or 30 years, I personally would take up the practice the Buddha recommended to cultivate satipatthana and not wait forever for it to arise by other means. > Nowhere does it say that vipassana means sitting and concentrating on anything. And yet, in the relevant suttas, the practice of sitting and concentrating through breath and other objects of meditation finds the Buddha using these practices to develop vipassana and satipatthana quite deliberately. And of course he reached his own enlightenment through sitting meditation, and was a master of the jhanas himself. So it may not always be the case, but it is at least a viable practice that the Buddha spent quite a bit of time instructing and cultivating. > .... > > > >R: So maybe he was saying to Meghiya that he needed some other sorts of support, but I am not sure if he was dismissing meditation as part of the process, at the right time. > ... > S: I think he was just describing the favourable conditions, not telling Meghiya to *do* anything. Well, I'd say by describing the favourable conditions, he was trying to help Meghiya, who found himself in a predicament. Helpful descriptions that may improve the situation of the one being "lectured," I would call "instruction." Buddha was a teacher, after all. > ... > > > > I note that in the sutta Buddha mentions that "respiration-mindfulness should be cultivated for cutting off (discursive) thinking" in his additional things to cultivate. That's anapanasati, which I'm always happy to see. :-) > .... > S: I no longer have my texts with me, so will let this rest for now ;-) Well I am sorry you cannot comment on it. It's a specific reference to anapanasati, and if you find that at some point in the future you can comment on the Buddha saying that "respiration-mindfulness should be cultivated for cutting off (discursive) thinking," I'd like to know how you would interpret that statement. It seems pretty straightforward to me. > ... > > > > And the last verses seem like a meditation instruction to me too, a pretty neat one: > > > > "Trivial thoughts, subtle thoughts, > > Mental jerkings that follow one along: > > Not understanding these mental thoughts, > > One runs back and forth with wandering mind. > > > > "But having known these mental thoughts, > > The ardent and mindful one restrains them. > > An awakened one has entirely abandoned them, > > These mental jerkings that follow one along." > > > > Is the commentary online? I'd enjoy looking at it. > ... > S: It's not on-line and yes, it's a great text and translation by Masefield. > > These last verses can be read with the idea of a Self who does this and that or it can be read with the understanding that the Buddha is referring to conditioned dhammas beyond anyone's control:-) I think I'll read it the way it is written for now. "Having known these mental thoughts, the ardent and mindful one restrains them." Sounds like a description of what the "ardent and mindful one" can and should do to restrain these mental jerkings. Of course there's no self involved, but still, this kind of skillful activity does take place and apparently, according to Buddha, can be cultivated. Best, Robert E.