#112800 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:03 am Subject: Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > #112447 > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >R: I think there's a happy meeting somewhere of bhavana as natural development and bhavana as focused training that is yet not precluded by self-view, but I understand that whatever is undertaken, it arises due to conditions and accumulations, and one can avoid taking credit for it. > .... > S: Getting there....:-) Apart from the focussed training, we're certainly in agreement here. > > In Scott's qu to KS, he had particularly asked about *her* experience of when there's sati and not sati. The answer is always in terms of conditioned dhammas, not a particular person's experience. I mentioned to him that I think that the more understanding there is of paramattha dhammas, the less thought or idea there is about *my* or *their* experiences. Just conditioned dhammas that "one can avoid taking credit for", as you nicely put. > > If you'd like to reformulate the comment into a qu or would like me to raise it as you've written with K.Sujin, I'm also happy to do that. Yes, I'd love to ask K. Sujin about this subject, but not exactly sure how to formulate it. Something like: "There is a strong tradition from the time of the Buddha of monks and others practicing satipatthana through anapanasati and related ways of meditating. Since satipatthana, vipassana, etc., only arise when conditions are right and there is no self to control their development, what is the status of all these Buddhist meditators? Is it natural for some to develop this practice due to conditions? Or is such habitual cultivation always off-track?" Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112801 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's quotes, to Lukas. nilovg Dear Lukas, Sarah has a lot to do with traveling, packing, etc. At least I can give you part of her quotes. Op 28-dec-2010, om 22:30 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Sarah, > I think I miss Acharn Sujin discussions, some parts I think. Could > you please If have some free time, give me the links to all > December usuful discussions with AS? ------ Sarah’s quote: Nimitta and Nina's quote and qu on nimitta and the reason for mentioning the four great elements (#111313). To know better where visible object comes from, how come visible object without the four great elements? Just that which can be seen. Discussed in this way to understand as just a kind of rupa. Less clinging when more understanding. The shape, form, colour, colours - all ideas about visible object. Seeing colours - ideas about what is seen now. Again, as Ann and I discussed, without the 4 great elements, no visible object at all. Without the 4 great elements, where is Sukin, where is Sarah, where are the other objects we think we see? The ideas are just on account of the visible object conditioned by the 4 great elements and other rupas in a kalapa by sahajaata paccaya. After seeing visible object, immediately there's an idea of shape, form and colour. We don't have to call it nimitta. There couldn't be ideas without the elements. ------- Sarah’s quote: 3. Nimitta. Nina's message #111313 - the first quote on nimitta and the comments. It depends on understanding, we don't need to think of nimitta - it's so very short. Instead of paying attention to nimitta, there can be awareness of reality. No time to consider whether there's nimitta or not, and no use trying to see the rising and falling away with an idea of self. It seems like there's a "trying to do", more than understanding. Understanding works its way with detachment. Trying is attachment. 4. Trying, effort By knowing/seeing the benefit of understanding with detachment, otherwise there won't be less attachment. Lobha motivates. Understanding sees the value. If we read over and need someone's explanation for understanding, it's not just wanting to have more and more understanding. ------- Nina. #112802 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipaaka. Was: The clansman nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 29-dec-2010, om 8:38 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > On a lighter note, we went to the Hershey store in Times Square, > and saw about 100 different kinds of chocolate; some bars of > chocolate that were larger than one's head. So we experienced > craving as well. :-) It was a very nice time! -------- N: Thank you for your report on your stay in New York with your daughter. Craving: Dhamma is never absent. Nina. #112803 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quotations with a Religous Spin nilovg Dear Ken H, I know what you mean. There are often discussions about the world of paramattha dhammas and the conventional world and some people fear that there is a contradiction. But as we agree there is not. Nina. Op 28-dec-2010, om 22:58 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > I saw a way in which unpleasant vipakka-citta might be called > tyranny. (In which case there would be no need for corrective > action). Kevin saw tyranny more as an akusala citta. (In which case > there would be a need of sorts). Either way, we were speaking in an > ultimate-reality context, not in a conventional one. #112804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. Kamma and Vipaaka, 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-dec-2010, om 22:14 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Can thinking be a vipaka citta? ------ N: The citta that thinks arises in a mind-door process. First there is the mind-door adverting-consciousness that is a kiriyacitta and this is followed by seven javanacittas which are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. We may think about the pleasant or unpleasant object that was experienced by seeing or hearing which are vipaakacittas. The cittas that think are mostly akusala cittas: we think of a pleasant object with attachment and of an unpleasant object with aversion. Since cittas succeed one another very rapidly many different experiences seem to occur in one moment. We may take for vipaaka what is akusala. We have accumulated so much ignorance. --------- > > L: What is pain? This is only a vipaka that is body-consciousness > experiencing four ruupas? > This doesnt hurt, but afterwards there are moments of thinking with > dosa, and this hurts. > Does pain is kamma not vipaka? ------ N: Painful bodily feeling that accompanies body-consciousness. Feeling is mental, but it is called bodily feeling since it is conditioned by body-consciousness that experiences the element of solidity (hardness or softness), temperature (heat or cold) or motion (oscillation or pressure). Not the element of water or fluidity, this is experienced only through the mind-door. Painful feeling is not kamma, it is vipaaka. Afterwards there are likely to be akusala cittas rooted in dosa. Actually, a simile is used that compares bodily painful feeling and mental unpleasant feeling with two arrows that hurt. They are both painful, but the dosa makes it worse. The arahat (nor the anaagaami) does not experience mental unhappy feeling, only bodily painful feeling. ------ Nina. #112805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipaaka. Was: The clansman nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-dec-2010, om 21:46 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Kh S: All the sense objects appear just for a moment through the > > relevant doorways and this teaches us that they are very > > insignificant (paritta dhammas). > > L: What is paritta dhamma, could you explained in more detailed way? ------ N: Sometimes paritta dhammas are mentioned in contrast to the objects of jhaanacittas which are mahaggatta cittas (very great), or the object of lokuttara cittas. The sensuous plane of consciousness is the lowest plane and the planes of ruupa-jhaana, aruupa-jhaana and lokuttara are higher planes of citta. ------ > L: If we say paritta dhamma, this means that is insiginificant so > this is only unconstant fleeting moment of experiencing object and > it's gone? Does paritta dhamma indicates there is nothing to cling > to. That what we take for conventional life is no more? ------ N: The sense objects appear and, as you say, they are just gone. But we still cling to all of them. ------- > > L: >But when we are thinking stories there is the > > world of concepts. When we learn to distinguish between these two > > worlds there will be less defilements. > > ------- > > L: Does that mean that thinking is pannatti? --------- N: No, thinking itself is naama, it is real. But concepts are objects thinking can think of. ------- > L: What's the difference between kamma and vipaka? How can it be > differenciated? ------ N: Kamma, operating from a different time, asynchronous kamma, are good and bad deeds in the past motivated by cetanaa. These can bring a result later on in the form of vipaakacitta. Kamma is the active side of life and vipaaka the passive side of life. ------- > L: How can vipaka be learned in life? ----- N: Learning more about seeing now, hearing now. These moments of vipaaka are conditioned by kamma and they cannot be changed. Nobody can cause their arising. This teaches us anattaa, beyond control. ------ > > L:What about unpleasant mental feeling? When I feel it I dont want > it to have. I want more pleasant sensations. ----- N: This also teaches us about anattaa. When these feelings arise they do so because of conditions. However much we may want to control feelings, it is not possible. ----- Nina. #112806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-dec-2010, om 22:22 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What is the conection between latent tendencies(anusaya-kilesa?) > and upanisayya-paccaya? ------- N: The latent tendencies are seven akusala cetasikas that have been accumulated and can condition the arising of akusala citta by way of natural strong dependence-condition. This condition is very wide and contains many aspects. All accumulated akusala and kusala can condition the arising of akusala citta and kusala citta later on by way of natural strong dependence-condition. But also kusala can condition akusala by way of natural strong dependence-condition, for instance when one has conceit about one's kusala. Or akusala can condition kusala, for instance when one sees the disadvantage of akusala that one committed and wants to observe siila. ------ Nina. #112807 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:39 pm Subject: Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] ksheri3 Good Morning Robert, Robert: "Since satipatthana, vipassana, etc., only arise when conditions are right and there is no self to control their development, what is the status of all these Buddhist meditators?" colette: is the dharma getting in the way again? I mean that the Dharma is trying to examine itself, it's own position on THEORY? Maybe if only more people could understand that even SUNYATA IS SUNYA. -------------------------------------------- Robert: Is it natural for some to develop this practice due to conditions? colette: I know I shouldn't attempt to answer such a complex position in terminology that I barely understand but I'll give it a try since I am trying to work magik, through the MADHYAMIKA conceptualization, elsewheres. "develop"? Development occurs after it has been created, formulation or formulated can be used as the "reason" which can be substituted for the word/concept Development. The structure, however, is limited to the parameters of the foundation i.e. that which is horizontal dictates what is to be vertical. What is suitable for a person may not be suitable for another person. In some cases the body of a person may reject the organs being attempted to be transplanted. Trying to force a heart into a body that will not accept the heart is a suicidal tendency apparent in the AMA when it comes to money and legislation i.e. the AMA will take the money from the donor or PAC so that they can legislate and legalize the use of drugs by the people, for the people, even if they are not in Tianeman Square and not LOCKED OUTSIDE OF THE FORBIDDEN CITY. "due to conditions", ahhh, our ole friend DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. Robert, this should be a NO-BRAINER. The way you are phrasing your question is sounds exactly like a Jeopardy question of the form: IF this THEN that WHAT ARE THE CONDITIONS? Aren't the conditions the parameters of the foundation? Isn't the foundation dictating what is to be raised upon it's support? I know my techniques of meditation HAD TO BE RESULTANT FROM the conditions that I was and am living in/under. BUT because I have always rejected the status quo's way of doing things, the "go along to get along" way of doing things, the standard operating procedure way of doing things, the "You copy my answer on this question and I'll copy your answer on that question, and somebody other will copy our answers that we copied and the GPA will remain in our control" type of way of doing things. I have always been rejected from participating in life this way, the way that gang members participate, and so I have found other ways to exist using the same USER'S MANUAL. The movie "TRANSPORTER", "I got game, 'cause the game was given to me", or maybe Bruce Hornsby and THE RANGE "Hey old man, how can you stand to think that way? Did you really think about it before you made the rules, that's just the way it is?" ----------------------------------- Robert: "Or is such habitual cultivation always off-track?" colette: What is "On-Track"? Why do you submit to this Western addiction of DUALITY? Why are you abandoning the doctrine of the YOGACHARA or CHAN? I like this one "habitual cultivation". Robert, are you trying to be a "social psychologist" here? <...> Thanx. These were just my observations and thoughts on the subject. I'm trying to stay "grounded" in the formal BUDDHIST reality so that I can better judge the characteristics of the meditation techniques I'm trying. For instance "is MORE INFORMATION a good thing" or "will MORE INFORMATION be efficascious" etc? toodles, colette #112808 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:45 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:37:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > I am getting a bit of a view of the Abhidhamma universe of one dhamma at a > time in a field of anatta events and it is a very weird universe indeed. > Nothing exists except these momentary experiences and then they are gone. > > ==================================== > Abhidhamma expresses the view of a series of discrete packets of > mental and physical entities, either of zero duration or of very brief duration > [It's not clear to me which], and considers them to be "realities" rather > than matters of convention I, myself, view these "packets" as of > zero-duration and, I view their supposed separateness/discreteness and existence as > entities able to be delineated as just a story - a fiction, in actuality. > In any case, the sequentiality of the flow of changing physical > quality and mental state & activity seems to be a matter of actual experience, > and impermanence, ungraspability, insubstantiality, and emptiness seem > increasingly clear to me. A modern rabbi, Rami Shapiro, has a book out giving a > translation of and commentary on Ecclesiastes in which he notes that the > Hebrew word 'hevel' usually translated as 'vanitiy' actually means "breath" or > "vapor," and he views Ecclesiastes as describing how to live at peace in a > world of constant "impermanence", constant "falling away," and - my > favorite - constant "emptying". So, instead of the usual King James "Vanity of > vanities ...," Shapiro gives "Emptying upon emptying! Emptying upon emptying! > ... Everything is emptying." I like that "emptying" because it is verbal, > and combines anatta with anicca. In fact, the radical impermanence of > phenomena, the constant emptying, implies the not-self, ungraspable, and > uncontrollable aspect of all conceived-of things, it seems to me.. I think part of the problem is that it's very difficult - more difficult - to describe the alternative to the moments as "little discrete packets" which each have their own characteristic and function, and neatly perform their task with surgical precision before disappearing. I've now been listening to this quasi-scientific description of samsara to the point where I can't remember what I think anymore! :-) Maybe that's how it works. I do think there is value at looking at the various types of conditions that cause things to arise, the various mental factors that can influence or color consciousness, and how kamma operates. The precision of the description is alluring, but is it real? What's the alternative? What actually exists? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112809 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:15 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112585) > > You are advocating understanding that there are only momentary dhammas, but the ultimate result of that is to experience the dhamma that is arising now as it actually is. Is that not correct? > > =============== > > J: Well I'm not in fact *advocating* anything ;-)) But yes, as I read the teachings, the understanding spoken of by the Buddha is the understanding of dhammas, meaning of any dhamma that is arsing at the present moment. > > However, and this was the point of my earlier comment, there is no 'practice' of "experiencing the dhamma that is arising now as it actually is". Only arisen panna can experience a dhamma that is arsing now as it actually is. And that panna is an impersonal mental factor that arises by conditions, conditions that do not include the conscious intention or effort that panna should arise and take a dhamma as object. That's a point of disagreement. You see the arising of volition to develop path factors as control-oriented self-view. I think it can be that, but can also alternatively be the correct and ardent intention to follow the path. Doesn't have to be self-based, but just a kusala desire to follow the Buddha's instructions to get the results he intended. He didn't just talk about Dhamma, he talked about meditation almost constantly, and practiced it as well. But you seem to want to surgically excise this large portion of the teachings. > BTW, I thought you had argued in a previous post that meditation was also about "understanding the arising of dhammas in the moment without any choice" and indeed without there necessarily being a sense of "personal volition" either. In describing this as the "dsg philosophy", you now seem to be suggesting that meditation practice involves something else altogether ;-)) Not sure if that's the case - what do you think I'm advocating? Conceptualizing and going away from the present moment? Proliferation of pannati? Not my intention. > > =============== > > Studying and discussing dhamma is also done with the idea of inducing awareness to arise, as it is understood that it is the process by which awareness *is* induced to arise. So if one does that, they are doing it with that intention. The only difference is that pariyatti is considered an intermediate step to direct awareness, but the intention and the reason for undertaking Dhamma study is the same. > > =============== > > J: As I've commented before, studying and discussing dhamma that is done with the idea of inducing awareness to arise would not be a condition for awareness to arise. What's your intention in studying Dhamma? Do you not desire panna to arise? Can you keep such intentions at bay in order to have pure pariyatti with no self-based motivations? I don't think anyone can, and so all Dhamma-based activities/intentions are of the same status in that sense. Then the question is "what works" to follow the path. And Buddha clearly advocated both Dhamma study and meditation. > Besides, as I've also mentioned before, the conditions for the arising of awareness do not include the doing of those or any activities (regardless of the 'purity' if the intention), but rather the hearing of true dhamma and reflecting on what has been heard and understood. I think you'd agree there's an important difference here. There's no difference if you are arranging to "hear true Dhamma," which I would think would be a major activity. Don't you go out of your way to study, hear, discuss Dhamma as often as possible, to visit K. Sujin and have questions clarified, etc. Isn't all of this intentional activity and isn't it the core of one's life? > In any event, as regards discussing dhamma, you and I are doing that right now. Am I doing it with the intention of inducing awareness to arise? I don't think so. I would take a close look at that, I don't think anyone engages in these discussions "just cause they feel like it." There is an intention to develop enlightenment factors lurking beneath, otherwise no one would bother. Or do you think it's just the equivalent of shooting the breeze on the street corner and buying lottery tickets with pals? > The study of Dhamma can happen out of an appreciation of the value of learning more of what the Buddha taught. And what is its value? Just stark admiration of how brilliant it is? No thought of personal gain? I have strong doubt as to whether this could possibly be the case. If it has any value, it is the fact that it applies to improving one's lot. After all the purpose of the Dhamma is to "end suffering." That in itself is a personal motive, not an impersonal one. It's all self til the bitter end, I'm afraid, or at least nicely peppered with self. > > =============== > > Both sub-commentarial Abhidhammikas and meditators want to follow the Buddha's path and eventually reach enlightenment. There is just a different assessment of how Buddha said to get there. > > =============== > > J: Yes, but as I see it a different assessment of the (correct) path to enlightenment means a different understanding of the teachings, and particularly an understanding of what it means for dhammas to be anicca, dukkha and anattaa. What's the difference? And even if there is a difference, that does not eliminate the lurking self-based motives for *any* wish to end suffering and follow the path. Otherwise, why do it? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112810 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:52 pm Subject: Alert Elevated Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: How does the Noble live in Alert Elevated Joy? The Blessed Buddha once said: How, Nandiya , does a Noble Disciple live in alert elevated joy? Here, Nandiya , any Noble Disciple is endowed with verified conviction in the Buddha thus: Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Not satisfied with that verified conviction in the Buddha , he makes a further effort in solitude by day and by seclusion at night! When thus enthusiastic, he is elevated by alertness! When thus elevated by alertness, then gladness is born! When he is gladdened, then a rapturous joy arises! When the mind is uplifted by joy, the body becomes all tranquil... One tranquil in body experiences a pure bliss of sweet happiness! The mind of one who is thus happy becomes condensed and concentrated... When mind is concentrated, even subtle phenomena become plain and simple. Since these subtle phenomena become plain and simple, he becomes one, who lives and dwells always rejoicing in alert elevated joy... <....> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. [V:398] Section 55 on Stream-Entry: Sotâpattisamyutta. Thread 40: Nandiya. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #112811 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:20 pm Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: When the Buddha spoke about the contemplation of corpses (as in the Satipatthana Sutta), he was not saying that, as a matter of doctrine, such contemplation was a prerequisite for, or was conducive to, the understanding of dhammas as they truly are. > > Rather, he was saying that for the person skilled in that kind of contemplation, the development of awareness involved an understanding of dhammas as they truly are (just as for the person not following such a contemplation). It's still a corpse contemplation, a chosen object, just like so many other Buddhist meditation subjects, and it was invented by the Buddha. People weren't hanging around doing detailed corpse analysis and the Buddha happened to come by. It was recommended by him for many, most or all monks, not just some for whom it was expedient. In any case, it is not a dhamma, it is a corpse, that is the subject of meditation here. Of course it breaks down into experiential dhammas, but that's my point. The conceptual objects can be used in this way and break down with finer perception as it develops. Same with breath. Life, illness and death break down into dhammas too, but they are chosen subjects, chosen by the Buddha for contemplation, and the dhammas occur within the chosen subject of such contemplations, not just here there or everywhere. Buddha gave specific exercises for meditation and contemplation, all of which break down into individual dhammas, but the subjects themselves are chosen each for a specific purpose and are not code for dhammas in disguise. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112812 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/29/2010 3:03:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Yes, I'd love to ask K. Sujin about this subject, but not exactly sure how to formulate it. Something like: "There is a strong tradition from the time of the Buddha of monks and others practicing satipatthana through anapanasati and related ways of meditating. Since satipatthana, vipassana, etc., only arise when conditions are right and there is no self to control their development, what is the status of all these Buddhist meditators? Is it natural for some to develop this practice due to conditions? Or is such habitual cultivation always off-track?" ======================================= You would like to ask Ajahn Sujin with regard to meditating: "Is it natural for some to develop this practice due to conditions? Or is such habitual cultivation always off-track?" It seems to me that something is being missed here by some folks: When someone decides to sit down (or stand or walk or whatever) to meditate and then does so, and when this is done regularly as an intentional practice aimed at cultivation of calm and insight, this is ALWAYS just a mass of conditions occuring due to other conditions! This seemingly very conventional and purposeful activity is nothing but a stream of mental and physical phenomena, all impersonal and quite empty. Everything that we decide to do and then intentionally carry out, with sense of gain and with a definite goal in mind, is actually nothing but conditions coming together and leading to further conditions. One cannot frown on intentional, "conventional" actions without frowning on the activity of impersonal conditions which themselves arise due to other impersonal conditions. Whatever seems conventional and personal is, in reality just a mass of impersonal paramattha dhammas. There are not two truths, there is one truth seen in more than one way. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112813 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/29/2010 6:03:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I think part of the problem is that it's very difficult - more difficult - to describe the alternative to the moments as "little discrete packets" which each have their own characteristic and function, and neatly perform their task with surgical precision before disappearing. I've now been listening to this quasi-scientific description of samsara to the point where I can't remember what I think anymore! :-) Maybe that's how it works. I do think there is value at looking at the various types of conditions that cause things to arise, the various mental factors that can influence or color consciousness, and how kamma operates. The precision of the description is alluring, but is it real? What's the alternative? What actually exists? ============================================= You say that you "... think part of the problem is that it's very difficult - more difficult - to describe the alternative to the moments as 'little discrete packets' which each have their own characteristic and function, and neatly perform their task with surgical precision before disappearing." Yes, you are right. It is not only more difficult; it is impossible - impossible because actual reality is nibbana itself, beyond conditions and beyond positive description. We can point to it with negatives such as 'unconditioned', 'boundless', 'seamless', and 'impersonal', but there is nothing positive that we can say except misleadingly (though suggestively) with such adjectives as 'luminous' and 'free' and 'open'. Everything that we speak of in positive terms, listing and detailing in textbook fashion, must ultimately be untrue. As for true knowing, supermundane wisdom can only speak to us in silence. Like a Dream /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) #112814 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:41 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Jon. Just re-dissecting the corpse meditation topic again... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: When the Buddha spoke about the contemplation of corpses (as in the Satipatthana Sutta), he was not saying that, as a matter of doctrine, such contemplation was a prerequisite for, or was conducive to, the understanding of dhammas as they truly are. > > Rather, he was saying that for the person skilled in that kind of contemplation, the development of awareness involved an understanding of dhammas as they truly are (just as for the person not following such a contemplation). Segment from the Mahasatipatthana Sutta: [4] "Furthermore... just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain — wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice — and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [5] "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [6] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions — here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a breast bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' These are very specific instructions on how to step-by-step contemplate the body as not-self and as anicca. It is not by seeing individual dhammas as not-self and as anicca. It is in seeing specific aspects of the body as we worldlings know it - hair, phlegm and pus are not dhammas, but conceptual constructs according to dhamma theory. Yet these are the detailed objects that Buddha asks us to contemplate. When the body is seen as decomposing, Buddha explicitly says that by examining a body and seeing that one's own body is equally impermanent and subject to dissolution, that - as Buddha puts it - when the monk sees the body "decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' When Buddha instructs us to regard the body in this way, and that the application of this contemplation is to see that our own body has this nature and will reach this same fate in the future, he is instructing us to understand anicca as regards our own body-concept; that the body that we cling to is subject to dissolution. It is about the long arc of our fate - not about momentary dhammas. The funny thing about it is that if one really looks at the body and focuses on it in the moment, specific dhammas of experience will become more apparent, and the development of discernment will increase. It is by dwelling in the body-concept without challenging it, without seeing that it is not what we think it is, that we avoid the actual dhammas that take place at each stage of evolution and dissolution. I think that we get closer to dhamma theory by looking closely at the self and body concepts; rather than dismissing them as "mere concepts" and being content with pariyatti about dhammas that we cannot yet see. In any case, it is clear from this and similar suttas, that Buddha was adamant about this view and that the concepts of body and self were to be *challenged* and looked into, not dismissed as irrelevant to Dhamma. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112815 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:56 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > "What do you think, o monks: Is corporeality (rūpa) permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. - Are feeling (vedanā), perception (saññā), mental formations (sankhāra) and consciousness (viññāna), permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. > "But that which is impermanent, is it something pleasant or painful? - It is painful, o Venerable One. > "But, of what is impermanent, painful and subject to change, could it be rightly said, 'This belongs to me, this am I, this is my ego'? - No, Venerable One. > "Therefore, whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, of all these things one should understand, according to reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I not, this is not my ego' " > In each case, the 3 characteristics are ascribed to dhammas, not to conventional objects. Well, it really depends on how you look at the kandhas. Analyzing experiences in terms of their constituent elements is more precise than just talking about objects in a more casual way, but Buddha also talks equally at ease about conventional objects and situations. Buddha emphasizes the process by which we experience things so that we can understand that, for instance, when we see a desired object, that there is contact and then vedana and then based on vedana more complex formations arise. That is an understanding of process. He shows where clinging and craving come from. But he never says that it is single dhammas that he is referring to, and that what he is analyzing does not apply to conventional objects that are the subject of clinging, craving and delusion. It's part of the delusion that we cling to conceptual forms. It is only in a higher state of awareness that we see that those concepts break down into individual properties that we cling to and that in fact there is no self involved. So I would say that the analysis of the kandhas applies equally well to conventional objects, as it breaks them down into their constituent elements and shows us how to see of what they are really composed. I just don't see it as an either/or proposition. To me, our conceptual delusions and the real dhammas, exist in a continuum. Do you know of anywhere in sutta where Buddha says that the above analysis takes place only on the level of individual dhammas? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112816 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:56 am Subject: Re: Problem of other minds sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& other Queenslanders), Hope you're all surviving the floods - on CNN last nite, it had wiped all the snow dramas aside for the main story of the day! Always a drama round the corner for those of us lost in samsara! Talking of which, I appreciated the dialogue you and Howard were having: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: >> I would say there was nothing to distinguish other people's cittas from one's own. > >> > > H: > How about the fact that you have no idea of what I am experiencing & vice-versa? > ------ > >K: There is that, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that all cittas are alike. They are all realities, not concepts, they are all namas, not rupas, they all conditioned, not unconditioned, and they are all anicca, dukkha and anatta, not nicca, sukha or atta. > > -------------------- > H: > Ken, not everything is trivial. This is exactly the problem of > personal identity, and it is fundamental to the grasping of no self. > -------------------- > >K: I am not saying it is trivial. It is profound and wonderful to know that all cittas are alike. My cittas are no more "mine" than your cittas are mine. They are all equally, and completely, without self of any kind. .... S: Yes, and when this is truly understood, there is no idea in truth of "internal" and "external" cittas - i.e. mine and someone else's cittas. Just thinking, just seeing, just hearing and so on which can be known now. Metta Sarah ======== #112817 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:10 am Subject: Re: Wisdom, Ignorance - Is there intermediate stage? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, #112424 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > An interesting question. Is there a middle step between ignorance and wisdom, or is it always either/or? > > Ex: if one didn't acted with wisdom, does it mean that one acted with ignorance (and nothing else)? > > If one did't acted with ignorance, does it mean that one acted with Wisdom (and nothing else)? ... S: Not quite. Trying to keep it simple - Some cittas such as seeing and hearing arise only arise with the seven universal cetasikas (phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, ekaggata, jivitindriya, manasikara), not with ignorance or wisdom. Some cittas are unwholesome and these always arise with ignorance. Some citas are wholesome or beautiful (sobhana). These may or may not arise with wisdom. These are just some examples. We can get even more technical discussing kiriya and other vipaka cittas if you like. I would not describe the vipaka cittas above, kiriya cittas or sobhana cittas without wisdom as "middle steps between ignorance and wisdom." Let me know if you'd like to discuss further. Metta Sarah ====== #112818 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IV,78 sarahprocter... Dear Chew, #108819 How are your studies in Penang going? I know you are re-printing some of Nina's books. Anumodana. You gave a very good quote from the U Siilaananda talks on the 2 kinds of jhana. I appreciated it very much because it shows it's not just us who refers to these details and commentaries! Important points to stress. I just didn't understand your comment at the start of the post which I meant to raise before: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sadhu Chew" wrote: > According to that, [ruupaaruupabhavesu bhava.ngajjhaane] (life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial > kinds of becoming) is also a kind of [appanaa] (absorption). .... S: Surely the bhava.ngajjhaane would just refer to the bhavanga cittas in these realms and would have nothing to do with appanaa (absorption)? Metta Sarah ====== #112819 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: intentional actions. sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, #109602 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > S: Yes, but that doesn't mean that dosa is encouraged:-) > > Kevin: Can one cause more dosa to arise intentionally or deliberately? I don't > understand. .... S: All dhammas are conditioned. If one has the mistaken idea that dosa is good, for example "righteous anger" or an idea that as akusala can be a condition for kusala that it's no harm, that mistaken idea may be a condition in itself for dosa to accumulate. Metta Sarah ====== #112820 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:20 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Robert E.: > > Well then what do you advise one to do with the conventional teachings that the Buddha gave about life, personhood and death? Ignore them, or pay what kind of attention to them? What should we do with them? They make up a large percentage of the Dhamma. > > =============== > > J: The teachings about conventional reality (life, personhood and death) are also to be understood (but this is not a matter of doing anything with them ;-)). Then what is it a matter of? What is to be understood about conventional reality, as you say it is also to be understood, and for what purpose? Why did the Buddha teach about these things? > > =============== > > Buddha spoke about disappointment, the inability to control the things of life, sickness and death. He taught about incessant rebirth, brought on by craving and ignorance. If one has a treasured object and it is taken away, one feels suffering based on uncontrollability and changeability of reality. If one gets old or sick, one feels sadness, suffering the loss of the body that one once had and still craves. When one is driven by desire, and the object of love rejects one, one feels suffering over the clinging and craving for the desired person. Buddha talked about these kinds of things and said that they were to be seen as non-self because they could not be controlled or directed. He said things like "If this were my self, I could make it do what I wanted it to do," and pointed out that the inability to control the things in our life made them non-self. > > =============== > > J: I do not believe the Buddha ever described these conventional situations as "not-self". I think that term is reserved almost exclusively for dhammas. > > =============== > > I think that insight will develop and get deeper as one continues to contemplate the things of life. > > =============== > > J: Well that of course depends on your definition of 'insight' ;-)) I'm thinking of the type that starts with a "v." :-) > > > =============== > As one looks more closely you see them in more detail. > > =============== > > J: If you're referring to conventional 'things in life', there's nothing to be seen. And any 'looking' is nothing more than thinking about. Depends on how you're looking. > > Dhammas, on the other hand, have a characteristic that is capable of being directly discerned by panna. With or without seeing? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112821 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha and Ayurvedic Medicine sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, #109601 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > Kevin: Sarah, that was a very interesting and exciting post. Thank you! Those > two suttas that you provided were not the ones I had in mind, but they do > explain the same point the one I did have in mind very lucidly! If I come > accross the Sutta I read again, I will certainly post it! > > It is interesting that Jivaka, the Buddha's physician was an ayurvedic expert. > I wonder about many points of Aryurceda when I was a monk. <...> > It would be great to ask > Jivaka about some of these things! (what a deluded, deluded thought....) ... S: Thank you for sharing your experiences and reflections as a bhikkhu - snipped for brevity. It was interesting. Of course, often when we're concerned about our health or change of lifestyle and so on, as you made clear, the problem is really just the present anxiety and concern about ourselves, our bodies and so on. Usually, there's very little awareness. So while taking care of this vehicle - extending its shelf-line as best we can (as Rob E referred to more poetically!) - we appreciate the only real medicine is panna at this moment of what is appearing now. Metta Sarah ======= #112822 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: How can killiing or stealing not be a conventional deed? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112593) > > > J: Deeds are not among the dhammas that are spoken about throughout the suttas; whereas mental states are. > > > > How can you say that? If Buddha says "killing is akusala" or the equivalent, he is saying that the deed of killing is akusala. How is that a mental state? > > =============== > > J: Let me clarify. When I said that deeds were not among the dhammas spoken about throughout the suttas while mental states are, I meant that when dhammas are classified by way of the khandhas, the elements, the ayatanas, etc, there is mention of rupas, cittas and cetasikas (which include the mental states) but no mention of conventional deeds. So are we then only talking about the classification schemes throughout the suttas, or do we also include all of the other things that Buddha talked about. What then is the status of the Buddha's instructions about deeds and actions to be engaged or avoided? Do we ignore them? The analytic portions of the Suttanta are not the only things in it. > > =============== > If he says that the householder gains merit by meritorious acts of kindness, charity etc., how are those not deeds? I do not understand your reasoning, unless you are saying either that when Buddha speaks of a deed he doesn't really mean it, or unless you are ignoring those passages that don't speak of experiencing dhammas, and speak of acts. But Buddha most certainly spoke of deeds all the time. > > =============== > > J: Yes, the Buddha spoke of deeds all the time, and people and things too for that matter. That is not the issue. It is to me. > The question is whether, when speaking of kusala deeds he was including the akusala cittas that inevitably, for us, arise during the course of any conventional deed. I think the point is what Buddha said the point was, that certain deeds are inherently kusala, such as meritorious actions, and others are inherently akusala, such as dice-throwing and telling lies. Of course there will be kusala and akusala mental states taking place throughout any of these activities, but that is the point - those mental states is *not* the only thing that Buddha stressed as important; deeds are in a category of their own. Since Buddha put so much importance on keeping good company and avoiding evil acts, how can we say that he did not ultimately regard those as crucial to the path? It may very well be that akusala and kusala mental states naturally attach to certain sorts of actions and situations and thus the Buddha guarded our mental states by discouraging and encouraging certain forms of action. But we still cannot say that those deeds and engagements are insignificant. > > =============== > > > > Here's an example, in case you still have doubts. I have excerpted passages that reference deeds and actions: > > > > Mangala Sutta: Blessings > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.5.nara.html > > > > ... > > > > Just to highlight a few clear, unmistakable *deeds* Buddha says are "the greatest blessing" in this sutta: > > > > meritorious actions > > skillful in handicraft > > to be of good speech > > support mother and father > > be engaged in peaceful occupation > > generous in giving > > to be righteous in conduct > > to help one's relatives > > to refrain from intoxicants > > to listen to the Dhamma > > to associate with monks > > to have religious discussions > > > > Is that a good enough list, or do you need more evidence that Buddha spoke directly and fully on kusala and akusala *actions* and *deeds* in the suttas, not just mental states as you state above? > > =============== > > J: Just to repeat, I've not been saying that the Buddha did not speak about actions and deeds. He most certainly did. What I'm saying is that when he spoke about a kusala deed he was alluding only to the kusala mental states that accompany the deed. That doesn't make sense, Jon. I mean, you can say it, but it does not accord with what he said. "To refrain from intoxicants" is not a comment on the accompanying mental state; it is a comment on a specific activity. So please explain to me how you can say that the list of activities and deed above translates into only accompanying mental states. That is *not* what he said. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112823 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, #109600 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > Kevin: Hi Sarah. You know I have been researching this more since then. I > have found some interesting things. The most interesting case is that of > Venerable Channa. He announced to Sariputta that he was going to take his life, > and also that he would not be reborn. Sariputta left and went to the Buddha, > after imploring Channa not to take the knife and offering his assistance and so > on. .... S: Did you read more on this in "Useful Posts" under "suicide" and "Channa"? Metta Sarah ========== #112824 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:40 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112594) > > That is included in my analysis above. I said that an otherwise kusala action with akusala intentions was at least partly akusala. The akusala mental state would spoil the kusala action. > > =============== > > J: To put it another way, if there was no accompanying kusala there could be no kusala vipaka resulting nor could there be even the accumulation of the kusala quality associated with the (so-called) kusala deed. > > In other words, there'd be no kusala aspect to the deed whatsoever. That may not be true. If I help someone who is suffering and my motives are bad, sure that will spoil the "goodness" of the act for me. But isn't it still kusala that the suffering was ended in that case? I am not sure that there is not an aspect of kusala even to an akusala motive, if the act has a positive consequence. I will say that I am unsure about this. But even if that is not the case, we can still say that certain types of actions are inherently akusala because they increase suffering. The reason why there is prohibition against killing animals or people is not *only* because of the level of hatred that may be necessary to perform the act, but because they cause suffering to the other being involved. If I eat meat that someone else has killed with hatred in my heart, I don't think that Buddha considered that as bad as killing an animal with no feeling whatsoever. Buddha had regard for worldly suffering, not just mental suffering. Perhaps you disagree... > > =============== > > In my last post to you I mentioned one sutta that spoke of 10 or 20 categories of kusala actions. I'm sure there are plenty more. Anyway, I don't think it's rocket science. Drinking intoxicants is akusala. Drinking lemonade is probably okay. Killing - bad. Acts of kindness - good. etc. > > =============== > > J: Consider the following instances: > Drinking intoxicants: Taking medicine that included alcohol need not necessarily involve akusala > Drinking lemonade: If the taste is to our liking, the mental state will be attachment, and if not to our liking, aversion. Where would the kusala be? > Acts of kindness: 'Kindness' is a reference to a kusala mental state. Not when speaking about acts, it's not. If I kick someone and knock them down, that is not an act of kindness. If I am kind to someone and help them, that is an act of kindness. The fact that there are exceptions - kicking someone out of the way of a speeding car - and that akusala mental states can spoil a kusala action, Buddha still advocated these common sense activities for a sustained and general state of kusala and avoidance of those things which tend to breed akusala. I can agree with you to the extent that such involvements would ultimately cause a kusala or akusala mental state, and that ultimately that is what counts, but I will not agree that Buddha only specified mental kusala and akusala because this is clearly not the case. If it were the case, Buddha could have said "do not cultivate thoughts of hatred, and even if it is necessary to kill someone do so without any thought of anger or hatred to keep it pure." He didn't say anything so absurd. He said it is *not* okay to kill a living being, period, regardless of mental state, good or ill. Do you not agree? Do we not torture ourselves over killing an insect in the Buddhist community. Is it not considered to *always* be akusala and carry negative kamma? Why is this so? What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? Is this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is it okay with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in that case? > > =============== > > > > The point is that a deed can be akusala in its own right, not dependent on an akusala mental state. I believe that killing of others is *always* wrong according to the Buddha, notwithstanding this or that mental state. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: I don't think so. Deliberately taking the life of another always involves an akusala mental state. > > > > I just said, killing is *always* akusala. Quote: "I believe that killing of others is *always* wrong according to the Buddha..." That was me, just above. You are not disagreeing with me. > > =============== > > J: I was responding to the first sentence in the quoted passage, namely, that " a deed can be akusala in its own right, not dependent on an akusala mental state". Apologies for the confusion. Well, it may be confusion or not. Do you think it is impossible to kill someone without an akusala mental state? In that case the act itself is *always* akusala, even though the reason is the mental state. That would explain why Buddha said those acts were akusala. However, what if, as above, I end someone's life who is suffering out of love and compassion? Is that akusala with a kusala mental state? If a certain deed is *always* accompanied by an akusala mental state, the only reason why this would be so is that the act itself is inherently akusala. Otherwise it would be possible to have an instance of that same act with a kusala mental state. Why not? If certain deeds are *always* akusala, and thus always cause or have an akusala mental state, there has to be a reason why this is so. What is that reason? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112825 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (6) sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Op 22-dec-2010, om 14:56 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > 3 gocara (objects for understanding) - > > objects of understanding. See Psm transl p.232] > --------- > N: I could not find this on p. 232. I think Kh Sujin mentioned the > three when we were in the car in K.K. and I scribbled it down. .... S: I don't have my texts with me now (it was the page ref I'd given before), but see Scott's message #105572 - difficult for me to follow the extract without the Pali inserted. (Scott, I had meant to thank you for it before). Perhaps we could try to match it together. > ------- > S: KS talked about helping others without expectations and this being > the meaning of satipatthana - just understanding and accepting > whatever is conditioned. > ------- > N: Yes, the third meaning of satipa.t.thaana, following the way the > Buddha and Great Disciples went. It is explained in the co: When the > listeners want to listen, the Buddha has equanimity, and when they do > not want to listen, the Buddha has also equanimity. Not being happy > nor unhappy about others' reactions. .... S: Yes, this was the point. We do our best - we share, we explain, we give assistance as we can (with our limited knowledge, of course), without expectations, without concern about whether anyone listens or reads what we say, whether they like it or don't like it (or us!). .... > -------- > S: 9. "To live for panna to appear". I'd asked last time where I > could find this in the texts and KS had kindly kept a note for me. > It's from the comy to the MahaNidesa (comy to Sn), Sariputta Nidesa > 16th. The term is "viputavihari" - whatever panna appear, living for > ------ > N: I have it in Thai and can find the Saariputta Niddesa, but next > time could Acharn give the section or page? It is very long and I do > not know where to look. It is a very interesting Niddesa. I could > translate the section. ... S: I'd be very interested to read your translation. She doesn't have the texts with her in the countryside as far as I know. So she just had a scrap of paper with the ref. for me. In Bkk, I could try to ask. "Viputa" she mentioned need not just refer to panna but any khandha - something like that. .... > Viputa may be in our dict. vibhuuta vihaari, vibhuuta is clear, > distinct. It is about ways of teaching. ... S: Yes, I'm sure it would be vibhuuta vihaari - I was just guessing at the spelling of the first word. I'll try to raise it again. Let me know if you have anything else on it, perhaps. Something she keeps stressing. Metta Sarah ====== #112826 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipaaka. Was: The clansman epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 29-dec-2010, om 8:38 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > On a lighter note, we went to the Hershey store in Times Square, > > and saw about 100 different kinds of chocolate; some bars of > > chocolate that were larger than one's head. So we experienced > > craving as well. :-) It was a very nice time! > -------- > N: Thank you for your report on your stay in New York with your > daughter. Craving: Dhamma is never absent. :-))) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #112827 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha and Ayurvedic Medicine farrellkevin80 Hi Sarah, S: So while taking care of this vehicle - extending its shelf-line as best we can (as Rob E referred to more poetically!) - we appreciate the only real medicine is panna at this moment of what is appearing now. Kevin: I agree completely! However, I do think that most medicines help relieve the symptoms more than anything else, in most cases at least. At times, however, medicines are completely curative. It all depends on the situation, I guess. The difference with panna is that panna is completely curative. It is, in fact, not only the cure for craving, but the cure of having any contact at all. The holy life is not lived for just the removal of the fetters. It is lived for final ending. Even the Arahant knows that contact is undesirable, though he is not attached nor averse to it. Those are just my thoughts. I hope all is well with you. Kevin #112828 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:48 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > J: This interpretation of yours doesn't fit with the teaching elsewhere in the Tipitaka where anicca, dukkha and anattaa are mentioned in the context of dhammas only. > >R: Do you have a handy citation that I can refer to? ... S: (Butting in) - so many! For quick convenience, here's an extract from a recent post by Antony (111826) which may help: *** A: In Samyutta Nikaya 22.86 <..> "Is form constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord." "Is feeling constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "Is perception constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."... "Is consciousness constant or inconstant? "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord." *** S: Dhammas - namas and rupas. Many more in SN, Salayatana vagga. Metta Sarah ======== #112829 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:51 am Subject: Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > What is suitable for a person may not be suitable for another person. I think this statement, by itself, is a very good one. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112830 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:53 am Subject: [dsg] Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 12/29/2010 3:03:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Yes, I'd love to ask K. Sujin about this subject, but not exactly sure how > to formulate it. Something like: > > "There is a strong tradition from the time of the Buddha of monks and > others practicing satipatthana through anapanasati and related ways of > meditating. Since satipatthana, vipassana, etc., only arise when conditions are > right and there is no self to control their development, what is the status > of all these Buddhist meditators? Is it natural for some to develop this > practice due to conditions? Or is such habitual cultivation always > off-track?" > > ======================================= > You would like to ask Ajahn Sujin with regard to meditating: "Is it > natural for some to develop this practice due to conditions? Or is such > habitual cultivation always off-track?" > It seems to me that something is being missed here by some folks: When > someone decides to sit down (or stand or walk or whatever) to meditate and > then does so, and when this is done regularly as an intentional practice > aimed at cultivation of calm and insight, this is ALWAYS just a mass of > conditions occuring due to other conditions! This seemingly very conventional > and purposeful activity is nothing but a stream of mental and physical > phenomena, all impersonal and quite empty. Everything that we decide to do and > then intentionally carry out, with sense of gain and with a definite goal in > mind, is actually nothing but conditions coming together and leading to > further conditions. One cannot frown on intentional, "conventional" actions > without frowning on the activity of impersonal conditions which themselves > arise due to other impersonal conditions. Whatever seems conventional and > personal is, in reality just a mass of impersonal paramattha dhammas. There > are not two truths, there is one truth seen in more than one way. Yes, I think you're right. In that case the question would be - is it possible to cultivate conditions that lead to enlightenment - or are we at the mercy of conditions that are already in play? [That question's for you, not K. Sujin. :-) ] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112832 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:19 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Like a Dream > /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, > delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on > awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the > noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a > dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this > with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming > from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity > coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging > for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ > (From the Potaliya Sutta) Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112833 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breakfast discussion with Han (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Sukin & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Han: He has so many worries. .... S: I was thinking of this when I was chatting to Sukin in the van about his list of worries. We discussed how we all have lists of worries and all find our own lists most important! In fact we tend to be obsessed by our worries and concerns, not appreciating that the real problem is the present thinking on and on about all the various stories and dramas in our life - past, future and present. As we know, the only cure is right understanding of the present dhammas. This is the only way we'll ever be cured of our various concerns. Of course, understanding this nature of self-affliction, self-obsession we all have, we can have all the more sympathy and compassion for everyone we meet, suffering the same malady. My best wishes to you, your grandson and all your family for the New Year. Sukin, pls add any further comments if inclined and have a good trip away with your family. Metta Sarah ========= #112834 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:32 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > J: This interpretation of yours doesn't fit with the teaching elsewhere in the Tipitaka where anicca, dukkha and anattaa are mentioned in the context of dhammas only. > > > >R: Do you have a handy citation that I can refer to? > ... > S: (Butting in) - so many! For quick convenience, here's an extract from a recent post by Antony (111826) which may help: > *** > A: In Samyutta Nikaya 22.86 <..> > > "Is form constant or inconstant?" > "Inconstant, lord." > "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" > "Stressful, lord." > "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: > 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" > "No, lord." > > "Is feeling constant or inconstant?" > "Inconstant, lord."... > > "Is perception constant or inconstant?" > "Inconstant, lord."... > > "Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" > "Inconstant, lord."... > > "Is consciousness constant or inconstant? > "Inconstant, lord." > "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" > "Stressful, lord." > "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: > 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" > "No, lord." > *** > S: Dhammas - namas and rupas. > > Many more in SN, Salayatana vagga. I have no doubt that all experience reduces to nama and rupa. However, I see it as an analysis of everyday experience rather than a description of a specialized act of perception. I think that's where the rub is. Therefore, in my way of seeing it, one could look at things in fine detail of namas and rupas, or one could see ordinary objects and activities with a lens of namas and rupas, without losing the ordinary view at the same time. This way one still sees what is happening in worldly terms, but understands it from a more analytic viewpoint. I just don't see the hard division between the two. I do see that understanding how reality breaks down makes one more intelligent about it and more likely to perceive anatta and anicca. I hope this way of talking is not too convoluted, but maybe it will communicate a little bit of what I think. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #112835 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:37 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, #112616 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > As regards, the second part of what you had written above, I was talking about my experience in Pre-War Burma (not the present Burma). The big sword that we used was written in Burmese as "dhaama" but pronounced it as "dhama". When we speak quickly the Dhamma and "dhama" have the same sound. In those days the Dhamma discussions sometimes could end up with fist-fights. There was the play of words, when we said, jokingly, you must have the "dhama" on your shoulder in readiness, when you discussed the Dhamma, so that you could chop up the other fellow with it if he did not agree with you:>). But between you and me, we do not need any "dhama" but just a big laugh! .... S: Yes, I like the big laughs better:-)) ... > In Burma, before the meditation retreats became popular, the advice given by our Elders on "atta" was very simple. They said one must not have too much "atta", and one must balance equally between "atta" and "para". What the Elders were saying was we might do things for ourselves (that was only natural), but we must also do things for other people as well. And we must balance between the two. Even if we could not do more for "para", we must at least do the same thing for "para" as we might do for our own "atta". In that context, "not to have too much atta, and to balance equally between atta and para" may be interpreted simply as "not to be selfish, and to be altruistic". Such simple understanding of "atta" may not lead to the deeper understanding of "anatta" as conditions, or no control, or No-Han or No-Sarah, etc. .... S: Yes, I think this is common wisdom that we should do for others what we like to do for ourselves, i.e. not to be so selfish in life. As you suggest, such general good sense may be helpful, but won't in itself lead to any deeper understanding of dhammas as anatta or to any "No-han or No-Sarah" understanding. Very few people are really interested to hear about such dhammas, regardless of whether they come from a Buddhist country or not. As we know, understanding dhamma at this moment is very profound and subtle. I appreciate your careful considerations in this regard, Han. Metta Sarah ======= #112836 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (2) sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Alan), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alan, > I am so glad you were present. I had been listening to your very good > questions at other discussions in Bgk and wished to be in contact > again. What is your Email, and would you like me to send you my book > on Conditions? In that case I need your postal address. ... S: When Alan and some other newcomers attended the Foundation discussion when we were there, they were all given a copy of your book on Conditions. I mention this because he may not realise it's the same one you're referring to. We're looking forward to seeing him again on our next visit to the Foundation. Metta Sarah ========= #112837 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:56 am Subject: Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (3) sarahprocter... Dear Azita, Do hope you're surviving the floods with lots of wisdom and equanimity! Any damage to your home? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > I have a question for Tues. > Listening to a discussion a comment was made about giving a no-longer needed something/anything away and it was kind of implied that one shouldnt give unwanted things away???!! - not too sure about that idea. Anyway, A.Sujin answered with " when you give, can you respect the receiver?" > > Can you ask for a little more explanation on that comment please. ... S: I didn't see your message in time, but can raise it again next week. Actually, I've picked up on the same point before. What she said in response to my questioning of it was that there may well be kusala when giving away something no longer needed, but it's very little compared to giving away something special. When we find a special gift or share something special of our own, there is respect for the receiver. Of course, we all know this is true. It did sound as thought one shouldn't give unwanted things away, but I think that's incorrect - not quite what was meant. When I left our flat in Hong Kong, I found a home for every bit of furniture and every item of clothing and kitchen-ware. Many people were appreciative, but it was part of my clear-out - not the same as when I went to quite a bit of trouble to buy opera tickets for my mother and myself when she visits Sydney soon, knowing how much she loves opera (which I don't enjoy). ... > I can sort of see what is meant, like its easy to give away something one no longer needs, and you wouldnt give away something you didnt like to someone you really liked and respected. > Mmmmm, mayb I've answered it for myself but I would like to hear more on this, if conditions are right :) .... S: Well, we might still give something we don't like to someone we really like and respect if we know it's what they like. Again, it all comes down to the citta now and it's for panna to know.. ... > > Please give my regards to Achan and all at the session. ... S: Will do so and mention the point. People will probably then hold forth with their various theories and she'll probably say it's just talking about situations again;-). A wonderfully wise New Year with lots of patience, courage and good cheer! Metta Sarah ======= #112838 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Azita, #112639 You wrote to Nina: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Azita: You know, I heard Ajarn make a comment about not remembering dates of events, or years passing, doesnt pay much attention to these things; when I heard that I was a bit puzzled and started to think about forgetting things and worrying about 'dementia' :) > but what you have written above makes lots of sense to me. > > Its not like I am suddenly going to forget everything -well, I could - but probably for different reasons - but we cling to our thinking and our ideas about events, people etc. .... S: Yes, we cling a lot to all our stories all day long. I've often heard K.Sujin make similar comments over the years about dates and numbers. I don't think we should read too much into this - I really think it's a matter of accumulations and interest. When it comes to remembering details of food, for example, she has more interest. She remembers the dishes we ordered last time and who likes what. For me, it's the opposite. I remember the numbers, but have very little interest in food. All conditioned dhammas. .... > We cant help thinking, it is conditioned to arise, awareness can be aware of that reality. How anatta it all is!!! .... S: Exactly! If we start thinking we shouldn't think or should have no interest in this or that, it seems like more attachment to things being a certain way to me. Metta Sarah ===== #112839 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (2) sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: - Depression - no need to name it, just unpleasant feeling. > >A: It is much more than dukkha-vedana. Sankharas are involved there as well. I wonder which cetasikas exactly? .... S: It's the unpleasant feeling we're so concerned about. This is why vedana has its own khandha and why the 3 kinds of dukkha are described in terms of vedana. So dukkha-dukkha, the first kind is often described as unpleasant feeling. You are correct, however, when you say that other cetasikas are involved. I would say that, in particular, dosa (of course!) and ignorance are the main roots. Of course, vitakka and sanna also play major roles - the thinking, the remembering about different experiences that we find find important. And of course, the desire, the lobha for such experiences which leads to all the trouble! Do you have any other reflections on this? .... > > > - Why ordain again? > > IMHO, to ordain helps To live a holy life and have stricter virtue. It also helps to set up better conditions for growth of the path. > > Buddha on many occasions praised monasticism. .... S: Yes, for those who could lead the perfect monk's life, with perfect virtue. He also said that another meaning of bhikkhu was the person who developed satipatthana now. Can we be bhikkhus at this moment? Metta Sarah ======= #112840 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:14 am Subject: Re: trivial pursuits sarahprocter... Hi Azita, Loved your "trivial pursuits"! Look forward to the next list! Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo dsg-ers, > > Today I was browsing thro some of the older posts and the not so old. Without adding names or dates, here is some excerpts which arent really related to anything, however they made me smile: <...> #112841 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:18 am Subject: Re: Justice sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, It worked for me! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > This is much like all of life. The truth is that we have much delusion. We > think dhammas are self at times, we think they are permanent, we think they > provide happiness. While our delusion may misconstrue things and misunderstand > things, when it comes down to it in a "court of law" (universal law, that is)no > matter what, even if we do not realize them to be so, all dhammas are anicca, > anatta, and dukkha. They can never be any other way. It can never go any > other way. At no time in history has any dhamma ever been self, nor will any > dhamma ever be self (or happiness or permanent). They simply cannot be that > way. Nothing and no one can overturn that. This is a fundamental law that is > on "our" side, just as the Freedom of Information law was on the young > politicians side in a very clear cut way. That is the definition of true > justice. No dhamma can ever be self even if we don't realize it. That is true > justice. There is true justice. .... S: Nice conclusion! True justice - dhamma niyama. The dhammas arising now couldn't be any other way, given the ingredients in the stew pot! Look forward to more of your sharings! Metta Sarah ======= #112842 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:29 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > J: This interpretation of yours doesn't fit with the teaching elsewhere in the Tipitaka where anicca, dukkha and anattaa are mentioned in the context of dhammas only. > > > >R: Do you have a handy citation that I can refer to? .... S: Here's the start of another one that Howard recently posted (#112689): SN 25.2 PTS: _S iii 225_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/SN_III_utf8.html#pts.225) CDB i 1004 Rupa Sutta: Forms translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.002.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ \) At Savatthi. "Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable. .... Metta Sarah ======= #112843 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (4) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Rob E, Han & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > 1. Rob E's qu on killing #112619 which he asked to bring to KS's > > attention. > > > > KS: "Instead of tlking about situations, what about cittas, one at > > a time?" > > > > Rob "...do we need to be concerned with the fruits of physical > > actions....?" > > > > KS: "Do WE need to be..?" > > She then stressed the importance of more understanding of reality, > > not questions about situations. > -------- > N: This in itself is worth considering, not only for Rob, but for all > of us. When we have doubts or are wondering about something, is it > not mostly concerning stories and situations? Or even in the case of > some problem in life we have such as loss of dear ones, death, > sickness, Kh Sujin will always stress: what about cittas, one at a > time? If the citta of this moment, even the moment we worry, is > investigated, we are nearer to the solution of such or such problem. ... S: Exactly so. The only real solution to all such concerns, upsets, worries about past and future is the understanding at this moment - passing dhammas, not belonging to anyone. By developing understanding now, we no longer have doubts or questions about the situations. We know it's just thinking with attachment, ignorance and aversion at such times. The more of such thinking, the more worries! Metta Sarah ======= #112844 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (3) sarahprocter... Dear Sarah C, #112677 I thought you wrote a very helpful and nicely expressed message to Robert E below and I liked your "ordinary life" example. Please share any more of your reflections any time! (If we're both writing at the same time, we may need to add an initial after our names too!) Metta Sarah A --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, SARAH CONNELL wrote: > > Dear Robert, > (habitual kamma), the deeds one habitually performs, either good or bad. kamma is *accumulated* to give results at a later time. > > In reading your comments to Han it seemed you considered this habitual kamma to > be a precisely measured quantitative value. I can not quote the Pali as several > of our associates here are able to do but perhaps my understanding of merit or > demerit is similar to Han's. Perhaps I can illustrate from ordinary life. Many > years ago I participated in competition high power rifle target shooting. When I > began I was not very good but the more I practiced the better I became. Also I > found that when I shot in practice with other competition shooters my scores > became even better. In other words the more I practiced I developed an habitual > tendency to perform the actions in the same way each time till they became > perfected. Also just as the Buddha advised us to associate with others of good > qualities, it also held true in practicing with others. Those that exercise > regularly are also doing the same thing of developing an habitual tendency > improving their physical body. <...> #112845 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:49 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Alan, You'll see this after your Xmas retreat and I hope that went well for you. Thank you for kindly adding your comments before you left. I'm sure you'd have been very busy, so I appreciated your contribution. I'm glad we'll see you again soon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "alan" wrote: > My only additional comments would be: > 1)It doesn't make logical sense to send metta to oneself.I don't think we need delve into absolute realities to realise that.Conventional wisdom alone will do. ... S: Good point. .... > 2)There was discussion about my need to reordain because of world weariness. Of course this is dosa. As to the motives for reordaining they are both kusala and akusala.But this doesn't deter me for the following reason. > As I remember it, in the "Questions of King Melinda" the king asks the Ven Nagasena about people who ordain merely as a way of getting food or shelter.Ven Nagasena replies that not only do many ordain for that reason but that he himself also ordained for that reason.And as most people consider that Ven Nagasena was an arahant,then so what?Had he not ordained would he have even bothered to study Dhamma? .... S: A good point to raise when we all meet, perhaps. ... > 3)Buddhist teachings are concerned with the mind in the present moment; yet we find no references to what people with clinical depression, bipolar disorder etc can best do to help themselves.True the Buddha helped several cases of people with mental difficulties - but exactly how he did this is not recorded as far as I am aware.Is the Dhamma for only those in good physical and mental health? .... S: Again, very good points to raise. The Buddha said we're all like mad people and if we haven't penetrated the 4NT, the greatest madness of all - that of Attta-view - still guides us into the wilderness and futher madness. Just as we all experience madness of one kind or another during the day, we can sympathise all the more with the particular difficulties others have. Please take whatever medications/nutriments you may need in addition to the Dhamma medicine. Remember the lady who had lost every member of her family and appeared naked in her grief and madness before the assembly of bhikkhus and the Buddha? The Buddha had someone give her a cloak and then what was his "recipe" for her grief and despair? Simply, the same "recipe" that we all need - that on the 4NT. Dukkha, Desire as cause, the end of Dukkha and the One Way. Perhaps Alex or someone else can give the quote as I'm short of time. We'll look forward to sharing more Dhamma reflections with you in the New Year, Alan! Metta Sarah ======== #112846 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (4) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Thanks for sending these notes. I found them very interesting and I much appreciate your bringing up my questions and K. Sujin taking the trouble to answer them. Anything else you remember will be appreciated. I am left with a lovely impression of the beautiful place where you met and the delicious Thai lunch. For a moment I felt I was there. Regards also to my penpal Sukin, who must have had a nice time! :-) ... S: Thank you for your kind note. Yes, a dream about a Thai lunch....dreams all day and we really think we're in those dreams, don't we? One comment was about how it seems it's the same object and we place lots of importance on all our ideas - all because there's no understanding about thinking most the time. Just strong ideas about what's been seen, heard and so on, taking them for being lasting. In fact, visible object is followed by thinking all day - like now! Metta Sarah p.s Thx for sharing your snowy tales from NY. I'm glad you all managed to have fun and I was impressed that you were able to keep up your posting here! One of the highlights of this year has been your prolific-posting return to DSG:-)) ========== #112847 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/30/2010 2:53:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > You would like to ask Ajahn Sujin with regard to meditating: "Is it > natural for some to develop this practice due to conditions? Or is such > habitual cultivation always off-track?" > It seems to me that something is being missed here by some folks: When > someone decides to sit down (or stand or walk or whatever) to meditate and > then does so, and when this is done regularly as an intentional practice > aimed at cultivation of calm and insight, this is ALWAYS just a mass of > conditions occuring due to other conditions! This seemingly very conventional > and purposeful activity is nothing but a stream of mental and physical > phenomena, all impersonal and quite empty. Everything that we decide to do and > then intentionally carry out, with sense of gain and with a definite goal in > mind, is actually nothing but conditions coming together and leading to > further conditions. One cannot frown on intentional, "conventional" actions > without frowning on the activity of impersonal conditions which themselves > arise due to other impersonal conditions. Whatever seems conventional and > personal is, in reality just a mass of impersonal paramattha dhammas. There > are not two truths, there is one truth seen in more than one way. Yes, I think you're right. In that case the question would be - is it possible to cultivate conditions that lead to enlightenment - or are we at the mercy of conditions that are already in play? [That question's for you, not K. Sujin. :-) ] --------------------------------------------------------- Well, it seems to me that what you are raising is the matter of determinism and free will: the perpetual, nagging question of the possibility of free will in the sense of "unconditioned willing". My perspective is that there are decision procedures involving thinking, preferences, and emotions that we can and do go through, and there is resultant willing, but none of this is unconditioned, and, though we think of it as personal, it is not. Moreover, the notion of "unconditioned willing" is, IMO, incoherent, and if it were carefully examined, such a thing would be seen to be actually undesirable. We do consider, decide, will, and act, but none of that is unconditioned. The activities described and urged by the Buddha, can, if carried out, cultivate conditions that lead to enlightenment. And the very "having encountered his teachings" comes down to some of the conditions already in play. ---------------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112848 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/30/2010 3:19:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Like a Dream > /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, > delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on > awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the > noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a > dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this > with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming > from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity > coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging > for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ > (From the Potaliya Sutta) Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" -------------------------------------------------------- Neither a dead, homogeneous unity nor a dustbin of separate entities, but a seamless, living unity-in-diversity: nibbana. -------------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singleness and multiplicity. was: The clansman.. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 30-dec-2010, om 9:19 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a > > dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing > this > > with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the > equanimity coming > > from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the > equanimity > > coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/ > clinging > > for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ > > (From the Potaliya Sutta) > > Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" ------ N: Singleness, ekatta, and multiplicity, naanatta, I wrote in post to Vince; "He perceives[...] singleness as singleness... multiplicity as > multiplicity... > the All as the All" > - MN 1 ----------- N: We have to be very careful when we interprete a sutta and terms like: the All as the All" > - MN 1> -------- Nina. #112850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... nilovg Dear Rob E, following your discussions with Jon. Op 30-dec-2010, om 6:56 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > "Therefore, whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, > mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or > future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far > or near, of all these things one should understand, according to > reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I > not, this is not my ego' " > > > In each case, the 3 characteristics are ascribed to dhammas, not > to conventional objects. > > Well, it really depends on how you look at the kandhas. ------- N: I look at them this way: the five khandhas are nothing else but the three conditioned paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika and ruupa. Just different ways of classification. What is khandha is past, present, future. They arise and fall away. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (III, 140, translated by Ven. Bodhi) that the Buddha, while he was dwelling at Ayojjhå, said to the monks: “Bhikkhus, suppose that this river Ganges was carrying along a great lump of foam. A man with good sight would inspect it, ponder it, and carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in a lump of foam? So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form?” The Buddha then goes on to make the same observation by way of similes on the four nåmakkhandhas of feeling, perception, volitional formations and conscious-ness. When we take the khandhas as a “whole” of a person, we have wrong view of self. Thus, when we fail to see the different characteristics of naama and ruupa when they appear one at a time, we take them for a self or a person. ***** Nina. #112851 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:34 pm Subject: depression, skill, truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, > > >S: - Depression - no need to name it, just unpleasant feeling. > > > >A: It is much more than dukkha-vedana. Sankharas are involved there as well. I wonder which cetasikas exactly? > .... > S: It's the unpleasant feeling we're so concerned about. This is >why vedana has its own khandha and why the 3 kinds of dukkha are >described in terms of vedana. IMHO dukkha is not limited to just vedana khandha, but all 5 khandhas as well. Painful feeling is painful, but the emotional dislike (sankhara khandha) is often far greater than the actual pain. > > > > > - Why ordain again? > > > > IMHO, to ordain helps To live a holy life and have stricter virtue. It also helps to set up better conditions for growth of the path. > > > > Buddha on many occasions praised monasticism. > .... > S: Yes, for those who could lead the perfect monk's life, with >perfect virtue. IMHO it is questionable to say "don't do it unless you are perfect at it". To become perfect at something, it must be developed. Skill doesn't increase from 0% to 100%. There are intermediate gradations in between, and the path is gradual. Before a child learns to walk, s/he will have to fall down enough times in the course of development of the skill. What is important is to get up and learn the skill of walking. Perfection of a skill comes from practicing it. One will never be perfect at something without putting all the required causes. > He also said that another meaning of bhikkhu was the person who >developed satipatthana now. > > Can we be bhikkhus at this moment? > > Metta > > Sarah According to the suttas and the commentaries, to completely fulfill satipatthana as described in the suttas and commentaries, one needs to actually retreat in a secluded place. So it is almost like temporary ordination. Furthermore, not all levels of "bhikkhu/ni" are the same. IMHO dhutanga practices are higher level practices than non-dhutanga practices. Dhutanga practices are praised by the Buddha and commentaries such as VsM. IMHO, the more kilesas one has, the more one has to do to counter them and the harder the path will be. Those who "became Arhats while cooking" had incredible accumulations, and their stories are irrelevant for us, unless we are already an Aryan. They could have done dhutanga practices in their former lives, and so they lacked some other aspect of the Dhamma that was "the last straw that broke camel's back". I wish you all Happy Holidays, Happy New Year. Alex #112852 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (4) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: Thank you for your kind note. Yes, a dream about a Thai lunch....dreams all day and we really think we're in those dreams, don't we? Yes, indeed. "We really think we're in them" can mean we imagine we are there, AND we imagine there is a "we" to be there... Both ideas leave me slightly melancholy. Some attachment to nice places and nice lunches I think... [and perhaps to being 'someone' who can enjoy them...]... ... > p.s Thx for sharing your snowy tales from NY. I'm glad you all managed to have fun and I was impressed that you were able to keep up your posting here! One of the highlights of this year has been your prolific-posting return to DSG:-)) Thanks, Sarah! Though my daily tasks crowd around me, I will try to keep posting regularly in the New Year... I appreciate the company of all the good people here on dsg! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112853 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > <. . .> >> In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones >> considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to >> a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' >> Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then >> avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on >> multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, >> dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits >> of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) > > Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" -------------------------------------------------------- Neither a dead, homogeneous unity nor a dustbin of separate entities, but a seamless, living unity-in-diversity: nibbana. --------------------- Hi Howard and Robert E, I think the Potaliya Sutta is about a monk who develops insight and jhana in tandem. Have you read the note to Thanissaro B's translation? "1. MN 137 (passage § 179 in The Wings to Awakening) identifies "equanimity based on multiplicity" as equanimity with regard to forms, sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile sensations. It identifies "equanimity based on singleness" as the four formless attainments. In the context of this sutta, however, the Commentary defines equanimity based on singleness as the fourth jhana, and this interpretation seems correct. Toward the end of this passage, the equanimity based on singleness functions as the basis for the three knowledges, a function that is normally filled by the fourth jhana." Ken H #112854 From: "antony272b2" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:30 pm Subject: The Buddha's example letting go of guilt antony272b2 Hi, In Majjhima 12 the Buddha talked openly about his (pre-enlightenment) history of appalling austerities. I'm impressed at how he had let go of guilt about his former behavior. Was the Bodhisatta's austerities with extreme dosa, or wasn't it heavy dosa because he was only torturing himself? If the Bodhisatta did commit extreme dosa, then can ordinary people with a history of cruelty to others let go of feelings of guilt in the same way? Thanks / Antony. #112855 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:09 pm Subject: Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (3) gazita2002 hallo Sarah, wrote: > > Dear Azita, > > Do hope you're surviving the floods with lots of wisdom and equanimity! Any damage to your home? azita: thanks for yr concern Sarah, but I live way north of the floods fortunately. There are sooo many people who have been affected by this event. I do have another quest. for next week, however dont have time right now to formulate it - you know how I mix up my words - but will get it to you before then - given the right conditions!! Happy new year to you too. BTW family visits are still going on, I wont have to do this sort of thing for another 100yrs hopefully :) none of them want to talk dhamma :( but then I dont try!!! They're not a bad mob really, no one totally evil :)) patience, courage and good cheer, azita #112856 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 12/30/2010 4:27:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > <. . .> >> In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones >> considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to >> a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' >> Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then >> avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on >> multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, >> dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits >> of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) > > Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" -------------------------------------------------------- Neither a dead, homogeneous unity nor a dustbin of separate entities, but a seamless, living unity-in-diversity: nibbana. --------------------- Hi Howard and Robert E, I think the Potaliya Sutta is about a monk who develops insight and jhana in tandem. Have you read the note to Thanissaro B's translation? "1. MN 137 (passage § 179 in The Wings to Awakening) identifies "equanimity based on multiplicity" as equanimity with regard to forms, sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile sensations. It identifies "equanimity based on singleness" as the four formless attainments. In the context of this sutta, however, the Commentary defines equanimity based on singleness as the fourth jhana, and this interpretation seems correct. Toward the end of this passage, the equanimity based on singleness functions as the basis for the three knowled ges, a function that is normally filled by the fourth jhana." -------------------------------------------------------- My thoughts on this: This passage says "... avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace." Without a doubt, "where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace," can be absolutely *nothing* other than nibbana. What is it in this passage that he says IS this? It can only be the *singleness*, and not the the *equanimity* coming from and dependent on that singleness, and certainly not the 4th jhana, for nibbana is not dependent on anything. So, the singleness referred in this sutta is nibbana. Otherwise, the passage is incoherent. This passage distinguishes the multiplicity perspective of samsara, the appearance realm of separate things, from the singleness of nibbana. Coming to know the former as dreamlike, a noble disciple can escape from it, avoiding whatever meager equanimity can be gained there, and realize nibbana, achieving true equanimity - supreme peace. -------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112857 From: sÄ«lÄnanda Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:12 am Subject: Ajahn Brahm's Videos on Youtube ... silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, Here is some sharing of the Dhamma which may overcome some of the obstacles that one may be facing in one's practice towards seeking the Path: Dhammaloka - Buddhist Society of Western Australia's Channel of ~120 videos http://www.youtube.com/user/BuddhistSocietyWA mahakaruna, silananda what-Buddha-taught.net #112858 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:53 am Subject: Where I grew up. farrellkevin80 This is some footing someone took of where I grew up. You will see All Faiths Cemetery where me and my friends used to hang as teenagers. We drank alot of beer in that cemetery. My friends house bordered it on the other side. It was a huge cemetery and I would walk through it every night as a shortcut to get home. I was surrounded by cemetarys on six sides growing up. *Huge* ones. Queens is where most of the people were buried when they were building New York City. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzm9uvaxdIw&feature=related Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Walshe DN. 33.2.3(5) 'Seven right practices (saddhammaa): Here, a monk has faith, moral shame and dread, has much learning, has aroused vigour (aaraddha-viriyo), has established mindfulness (upa.t.thita-sati hoti), possesses wisdom. #112859 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:17 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------ <. . .> H: > This passage says "... avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace." Without a doubt, "where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace," can be absolutely *nothing* other than nibbana. ------- It could be nibbana, I suppose, but I don't share your certainty. Wouldn't "arahantship" be another possible meaning? ------------------ H: > What is it in this passage that he says IS this? It can only be the *singleness*, and not the the *equanimity* coming from and dependent on that singleness, and certainly not the 4th jhana, for nibbana is not dependent on anything. So, the singleness referred in this sutta is nibbana. Otherwise, the passage is incoherent. ------------------ The commentaries have explained that "equanimity based on singleness" means "the fourth jhana." Therefore, I would conclude that "singleness" was a synonym for concentration. We know from previous DSG discussions that a jhana meditator, when he attains magga citta, has supramundane right concentration at the same level as his mundane jhana concentration. So a monk who had mastered the fourth mundane jhana would attain magga citta with concentration at the level of the fourth jhana. We also know that magga citta is considered to be a supramundane jhana citta. So maybe that is what "it" ("where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace") is - the supramundane fourth jhana of arahantship. ------------------------- H: > This passage distinguishes the multiplicity perspective of samsara, the appearance realm of separate things, from the singleness of nibbana. ------------------------- My guess is that "multiplicity" means the experiencing of sense objects (which is always done with ordinary level concentration). In this case, the sense objects have been experienced with right understanding - satipatthana. The monk then goes beyond satipatthana to experience nibbana, and attains the final stage of Path consciousness. Being a jhana master, he does so with concentration at the level of the fourth jhana. Ken H #112860 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:18 am Subject: Bangkok with K. Sujin. Anapanasati 2 (was Re: Saturday meeting)[d] epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: ...We do consider, decide, will, and act, but none of that is > unconditioned. > The activities described and urged by the Buddha, can, if carried out, > cultivate conditions that lead to enlightenment. And the very "having > encountered his teachings" comes down to some of the conditions already in > play. Yes, I basically agree with that. It is clear that everything is conditioned, just not clear that conditioned always means determined. There is room, perhaps, for things to take different turns within given conditions, but even that is not determined by a self, and those different turns would also represent other conditions coming into play. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112861 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" > -------------------------------------------------------- > Neither a dead, homogeneous unity nor a dustbin of separate entities, > but a seamless, living unity-in-diversity: nibbana. > -------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure whether unity-in-diversity is the same as "singleness." In the sutta Buddha counterposes "singleness" to multiplicity. It seems to me that he is urging the view that comes from singleness and frowning on the view which breeds the perception of multiplicity. I am sure that the "unity" part is part of singleness, but it seems that he is saying that the diversity aspect of existence is an illusion. I like singleness, because I can't totally penetrate it. If that is the literal translation, as opposed to unity or oneness which are easy for me to understand, it remains an intriguing term. It certainly seems to denote not the oneness of unity, but the oneness of "only one." What else can "single" mean? If what is meant, taking your take on it from a slightly different angle, is nibbana as the sole reality, the singleness implies that only nibbana is real and that the seeming multiplicity is a diversion. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #112862 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Singleness and multiplicity. was: The clansman.. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Further explained in commentary, see Ven. Bodhi: The root of > Existence, muulapariyaayasutta and co. The subco: unity (or > singleness), ekatta and diversity (or multiplicity), naanatta. Unity > refers to jhaana and diversity (or multiplicity) refers to the non- > attainer of jhaana, being involved in sense sphere dhammas. > Thus, we have to see this in the right context.> Thanks for such good information Nina. That is very intriguing. I would guess that the experience of "singleness," or single-minded concentration away from sense objects and towards the object of jhana, would also continue in the higher states of non-perception, non-feeling, emptiness, etc. and into the experience of nibbana which would have nibbana as the single object of concentration. Would that be off-base? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112863 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/30/2010 11:17:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ------ <. . .> H: > This passage says "... avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace." Without a doubt, "where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace," can be absolutely *nothing* other than nibbana. ------- It could be nibbana, I suppose, but I don't share your certainty. Wouldn't "arahantship" be another possible meaning? ----------------------------------------------- I believe it is a standard referring to nibbana. --------------------------------------------- ------------------ H: > What is it in this passage that he says IS this? It can only be the *singleness*, and not the the *equanimity* coming from and dependent on that singleness, and certainly not the 4th jhana, for nibbana is not dependent on anything. So, the singleness referred in this sutta is nibbana. Otherwise, the passage is incoherent. ------------------ The commentaries have explained that "equanimity based on singleness" means "the fourth jhana." Therefore, I would conclude that "singleness" was a synonym for concentration. --------------------------------------------------- That makes no sense. What is it that is said here to be "where the world ceases without trace"? SOMETHING is, and if you look at the statement, there seems to be but one choice. ------------------------------------------------ We know from previous DSG discussions that a jhana meditator, when he attains magga citta, has supramundane right concentration at the same level as his mundane jhana concentration. So a monk who had mastered the fourth mundane jhana would attain magga citta with concentration at the level of the fourth jhana. We also know that magga citta is considered to be a supramundane jhana citta. So maybe that is what "it" ("where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace") is - the supramundane fourth jhana of arahantship. ------------------------- H: > This passage distinguishes the multiplicity perspective of samsara, the appearance realm of separate things, from the singleness of nibbana. ------------------------- My guess is that "multiplicity" means the experiencing of sense objects (which is always done with ordinary level concentration). In this case, the sense objects have been experienced with right understanding - satipatthana. The monk then goes beyond satipatthana to experience nibbana, and attains the final stage of Path consciousness. Being a jhana master, he does so with concentration at the level of the fourth jhana. Ken H ============================ I just cannot see this in anyway other than what I indicated. Sorry. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112864 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > following your discussions with Jon. > Op 30-dec-2010, om 6:56 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > "Therefore, whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, > > mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or > > future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far > > or near, of all these things one should understand, according to > > reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I > > not, this is not my ego' " > > > > > In each case, the 3 characteristics are ascribed to dhammas, not > > to conventional objects. > > > > Well, it really depends on how you look at the kandhas. > ------- > N: I look at them this way: the five khandhas are nothing else but > the three conditioned paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika and ruupa. > Just different ways of classification. What is khandha is past, > present, future. They arise and fall away. > > We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (III, 140, translated by Ven. Bodhi) > that the Buddha, while he was dwelling at Ayojjhå, said to the monks: > > "Bhikkhus, suppose that this river Ganges was carrying along a great > lump of foam. A man with good sight would inspect it, ponder it, and > carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to be void, > hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in a lump of > foam? > So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of form there is, whether past, > future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or > superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and > carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void, > hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form?" > > The Buddha then goes on to make the same observation by way of > similes on the four nåmakkhandhas of feeling, perception, volitional > formations and conscious-ness. > When we take the khandhas as a "whole" of a person, we have wrong > view of self. Thus, when we fail to see the different characteristics > of naama and ruupa when they appear one at a time, we take them for a > self or a person. I agree with this, and I think it's a good explanation. My problem is beyond this in the interpretation of the suttas as always being about single dhammas and not about conventional objects, when it is clear that Buddha specifically talks about conventional objects on many occasions, and also talks about the kandhas in a more technical way, depending on the occasion and the audience. The question Jon and I have been debating is whether seeing anatta and anicca in conventionl objects is part of the path. There is the absolute view that Buddha never said any such thing and only talked about anatta and anicca in terms of dhammas and kandhas; and there is the view that I have that many people start out by seeing the clinging and craving that attaches to conventional objects, in conventional terms, and gradually begins to see that the conventional objects break down into changing, impermanent forms that are non-controllable and changing and dissolving from moment to moment. Jon's and others' idea about this is that seeing the impermanence of one's favorite rug or the loss of one's best friend and coming to grips with the non-control and non-lasting nature of those treasured objects is basically useless, and that one only gets an understanding of anicca and anatta from seeing them in terms of momentary dhammas. I just don't think that's true at all. I think most of us, even though we are following Buddha, will get most of our realizations about life from coming to terms with conventional objects, and it is only when we genuinely reach a higher level of understanding that we can relate to the technical level of momentary dhammas. We may see the momentary dhammas in a fleeting way and come to understand that life is changing from moment to moment. But that is not where we get the main lessons about attachment. We get those lessons and have to deal with clinging when our marriage breaks up or when our friend dies. Those are the things that we cling to and that we are attached to, not a remote impersonal dhamma in an isolated moment. There has to be a way that the whole path comes together with *actual* everyday life, not just idealized everyday life that is seen only by arahants. So I think it is a mistake to say about conventional relations, "oh that is just a concept, it is meaningless," when that is where most of us have most of our meaning invested, and have to actually find detachment there first. Or at least face that that's where the attachment lies. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112865 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/30/2010 11:25:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" > -------------------------------------------------------- > Neither a dead, homogeneous unity nor a dustbin of separate entities, > but a seamless, living unity-in-diversity: nibbana. > -------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure whether unity-in-diversity is the same as "singleness." In the sutta Buddha counterposes "singleness" to multiplicity. It seems to me that he is urging the view that comes from singleness and frowning on the view which breeds the perception of multiplicity. I am sure that the "unity" part is part of singleness, but it seems that he is saying that the diversity aspect of existence is an illusion. ------------------------------------------------- The diversity is not one of separate things but of variation. Think of a great river: There are shallows and deeps, rapids and regions of calm, straight flows and whirlpools; but there is no separation, and it is all just river. ---------------------------------------------- I like singleness, because I can't totally penetrate it. If that is the literal translation, as opposed to unity or oneness which are easy for me to understand, it remains an intriguing term. It certainly seems to denote not the oneness of unity, but the oneness of "only one." What else can "single" mean? If what is meant, taking your take on it from a slightly different angle, is nibbana as the sole reality, the singleness implies that only nibbana is real and that the seeming multiplicity is a diversion. ------------------------------------------- Multiplicity involves separate things, hence my dustbin reference. Singleness, however, doesn't preclude seamless variation. Beginnings and endings are dreams, but variation is not. I don't imagine nibbana to be a dead, homogeneous, block-of-sameness, but a living, pulsing, vibrant, seamless magnificence. I feel certain that it is this that is reality, a reality that it is our misfortune to misperceive. This very world of apparent multiplicity, this dustbin of separate things, is one of false imagination - a dream to be awakened from. The truth, I believe, is that it is actually seamless reality in disguise. We have no need to go anywhere for nibbana. It is right here. We only need to drop the scales from our eyes. ------------------------------------------ Best, Robert E. ================================= With metta, Howard /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, One would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #112866 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:04 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > <. . .> > > >> In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones > >> considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to > >> a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' > >> Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then > >> avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on > >> multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, > >> dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits > >> of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) > > > > Cool quote. What do you make of "singleness?" > -------------------------------------------------------- > Neither a dead, homogeneous unity nor a dustbin of separate > entities, but a seamless, living unity-in-diversity: nibbana. > --------------------- > > > Hi Howard and Robert E, > > I think the Potaliya Sutta is about a monk who develops insight and jhana in tandem. Have you read the note to Thanissaro B's translation? > > "1. > MN 137 (passage § 179 in The Wings to Awakening) identifies "equanimity based on multiplicity" as equanimity with regard to forms, sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile sensations. It identifies "equanimity based on singleness" as the four formless attainments. In the context of this sutta, however, the Commentary defines equanimity based on singleness as the fourth jhana, and this interpretation seems correct. Toward the end of this passage, the equanimity based on singleness functions as the basis for the three knowledges, a function that is normally filled by the fourth jhana." Thank you, Ken, that is intriguing and good information. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112867 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Without a doubt, "where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the > world ceases without trace," can be absolutely *nothing* other than nibbana. > What is it in this passage that he says IS this? It can only be the > *singleness*, and not the the *equanimity* coming from and dependent on that > singleness, and certainly not the 4th jhana, for nibbana is not dependent on > anything. So, the singleness referred in this sutta is nibbana. Otherwise, > the passage is incoherent. > This passage distinguishes the multiplicity perspective of samsara, > the appearance realm of separate things, from the singleness of nibbana. > Coming to know the former as dreamlike, a noble disciple can escape from it, > avoiding whatever meager equanimity can be gained there, and realize nibbana, > achieving true equanimity - supreme peace. > -------------------------------------------------------- This is an excellent interpretation and I think you make your case very well. I especially like your comparison of the "meager" equanimity of multiplicity being replaced by the incomparable equanimity of singleness. That makes sense of the two usages of equanimity in the passage, and identifies the singleness in question as nibbana - very nice indeed. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112868 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Multiplicity involves separate things, hence my dustbin reference. > Singleness, however, doesn't preclude seamless variation. Beginnings and > endings are dreams, but variation is not. I don't imagine nibbana to be a dead, > homogeneous, block-of-sameness, but a living, pulsing, vibrant, seamless > magnificence. I feel certain that it is this that is reality, a reality that > it is our misfortune to misperceive. This very world of apparent > multiplicity, this dustbin of separate things, is one of false imagination - a dream > to be awakened from. The truth, I believe, is that it is actually seamless > reality in disguise. We have no need to go anywhere for nibbana. It is > right here. We only need to drop the scales from our eyes. > ------------------------------------------ While I accord with you in seeing the potential of perceiving nibbana within the passing flow of seamless manifestations, I don't see nibbana itself as including the flow, but being the still point within and beyond it. Perhaps it's just a difference of emphasis. There is a place where the world disappears, even beyond its seamlessness. Coming back to multiplicity from nibbana, I assume one would see it as you describe it, as mere variation on the substanceless reality. One who has seen water when it is perfectly still and clear continues to understand its nature when it is frothed up. So in that sense one may known nibbana within the seemingness of samsara. Well all of this is over my actual head, speaking of water, and is the product of my Dhamma-oriented imagination. When I have had moments of perceiving this shifting reality as a clear and seamless display, it makes perfect sense without interpretation; and then one is pulled away down the rapids again. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112869 From: patrick ohearn Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alert Elevated Joy! mntcdespatricko Namo Buddhaya Bhikkhu Samahita, I thank you each day for sharing these wonderful teachings through the e-sangha Facebook group. I look forward to checking my email to see what you have brought to my inbox. Thank you for sharing the Dhamma with us.All the blessings to you friend. Patrick O'Hearn Namo Buddhaya --- On Wed, 12/29/10, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: From: Bhikkhu Samahita Subject: [dsg] Alert Elevated Joy! To: "1. 1A" , "1. 2A" Date: Wednesday, December 29, 2010, 2:52 PM Friends: How does the Noble live in Alert Elevated Joy? <...> #112870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's example letting go of guilt nilovg Dear Anthony, Op 30-dec-2010, om 22:30 heeft antony272b2 het volgende geschreven: > In Majjhima 12 the Buddha talked openly about his (pre- > enlightenment) history of appalling austerities. I'm impressed at > how he had let go of guilt about his former behavior. Was the > Bodhisatta's austerities with extreme dosa, or wasn't it heavy dosa > because he was only torturing himself? If the Bodhisatta did commit > extreme dosa, then can ordinary people with a history of cruelty to > others let go of feelings of guilt in the same way? ------- N: The Buddha as a Bodhisatta accumulated all the perfections, including equanimity. He would have equanimity, no dosa, when undergoing great pain and hunger. He had to face extreme suffering when following ascetical practices, and later on he realised that this was not the way to attain enlightenment, but evenso he would not forget to accumulate the perfections of patience and equanimity, and all other perfections. I quote from Kh Sujin's Perfections: < He wanted to accumulate the perfection of equanimity: he endured derisive speech from others, and he went outside covered only by a piece of cloth. When he was without strength, he behaved as if he had strength, he was not downhearted and he had patience. Though not dumb, he behaved as someone who is dumb, he was not disturbed by anything. No matter what someone else said, no matter others ridiculed him because of his outward appearance which seemed to be of a fool, he was unaffected. We all have different accumulated inclinations. We are attached to our appearance, to our clothing, to words of approval and praise from others. We like to be dressed beautifully, but the Bodhisatta had in that life great endurance, he was unaffected when others jeered at the way he was dressed. Where he was much derided he stayed longer. Wandering about in that way he came to a house in a village. We read: There the children of that family were of a mischievous character, they were prone to violence and liked to beat other people. Some children were relatives or slaves of the royal household. They had a cruel, fierce character, they uttered sarcastic, coarse, insulting speech and they went about mocking all the time. When these children would see old, destitute people, they would take fine dust and scatter it all over their backs. They behaved in an improper, reproachable way, and they jeered at the people who were watching the scene. When the great Being saw those mischievous children going about in the village, he thought, 'Now I shall use a trick as a means of accumulating the perfection of equanimity, and therefore I shall stay in that place.' When those mischievous children saw the Great Being, they began to behave in an improper way. The Great Being stood up and pretended that he could not stand this any longer and that he was afraid of those children. When the children followed the Bodhisatta, he went to a cemetery, thinking, 'Here nobody will interfere with the conduct of those children.' He took a skeleton as a pillow to support him and he lay down. Thereupon the children behaved in an improper way such as spitting upon him and then returned. Every day they behaved in this way. When wise people saw the childrenís behaviour, they forbid them to act in that way, saying, 'This person has great powers, he is an ascetic, a great yoga practitioner.' Those wise people greatly praised and honoured the Bodhisatta. All Bodhisattas are evenminded and impartial, in every respect. The Buddha said, 'I slept in a cemetery, taking as a pillow the skeleton of a corpse. I had evenmindedness with regard to what is clean and what is dirty.' The village children conducted themselves in many rude, improper ways, by spitting, jeering, defecating and urinating. They poked blades of grass into the Bodhisattaís ears and they were teasing and mocking as much as they liked. The Bodhisatta reflected: 'The village children caused me to suffer pain, whereas those wise people gave me enjoyable things, such as flowers, unguents and food. I have evenmindedness, I am the same to all, because I have equanimity. I am impartial, without excess, in all circumstances. I have no specific affection towards those who support me, nor do I speak angry words or have feelings of vengeance towards those who do not support me. Thus, I am impartial towards all people.' The Bodhisatta was unshakable and impartial, having no attachment to people who gave him pleasant things, such as flowers, unguents and food, and having no anger towards those who disturbed him and made him suffer. > ****** Nina. #112871 From: "antony272b2" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's example letting go of guilt antony272b2 Hi Nina, I apologize if my post was disrespectful to the Buddha. When the Bodhisatta performed coarse austerities, what kilesas had he yet to uproot and which paramis did he still have to develop? Thanks / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Anthony, > Op 30-dec-2010, om 22:30 heeft antony272b2 het volgende geschreven: > > > In Majjhima 12 the Buddha talked openly about his (pre- > > enlightenment) history of appalling austerities. I'm impressed at > > how he had let go of guilt about his former behavior. Was the > > Bodhisatta's austerities with extreme dosa, or wasn't it heavy dosa > > because he was only torturing himself? If the Bodhisatta did commit > > extreme dosa, then can ordinary people with a history of cruelty to > > others let go of feelings of guilt in the same way? > ------- > N: The Buddha as a Bodhisatta accumulated all the perfections, > including equanimity. He would have equanimity, no dosa, when > undergoing great pain and hunger. He had to face extreme suffering > when following ascetical practices, and later on he realised that > this was not the way to attain enlightenment, but evenso he would not > forget to accumulate the perfections of patience and equanimity, and > all other perfections. > > ****** > Nina. > > #112872 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken & all) - In a message dated 12/31/2010 12:08:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Without a doubt, "where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the > world ceases without trace," can be absolutely *nothing* other than nibbana. > What is it in this passage that he says IS this? It can only be the > *singleness*, and not the the *equanimity* coming from and dependent on that > singleness, and certainly not the 4th jhana, for nibbana is not dependent on > anything. So, the singleness referred to in this sutta is nibbana. Otherwise, > the passage is incoherent. > This passage distinguishes the multiplicity perspective of samsara, > the appearance realm of separate things, from the singleness of nibbana. > Coming to know the former as dreamlike, a noble disciple can escape from it, > avoiding whatever meager equanimity can be gained there, and realize nibbana, > achieving true equanimity - supreme peace. > -------------------------------------------------------- This is an excellent interpretation and I think you make your case very well. I especially like your comparison of the "meager" equanimity of multiplicity being replaced by the incomparable equanimity of singleness. That makes sense of the two usages of equanimity in the passage, and identifies the singleness in question as nibbana - very nice indeed. --------------------------------------------- Thanks for the kind words, Robert. I do, of course, believe my understanding of this matter is correct, but I also realize the possibility of my being mistaken. Whatever is the case on this matter, relaxing our grip on things, especially on opinions, is of great importance. "Relinquishment rules!" ;-) ----------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ============================ With metta, Howard P. S. Everybody: HAVE A HAPPY, HEALTHY, PEACEFUL, AND INSIGHTFUL NEW YEAR!! [Now, please, let us not debate the "real" meaning of that! LOLOL!] #112873 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/31/2010 12:19:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Multiplicity involves separate things, hence my dustbin reference. > Singleness, however, doesn't preclude seamless variation. Beginnings and > endings are dreams, but variation is not. I don't imagine nibbana to be a dead, > homogeneous, block-of-sameness, but a living, pulsing, vibrant, seamless > magnificence. I feel certain that it is this that is reality, a reality that > it is our misfortune to misperceive. This very world of apparent > multiplicity, this dustbin of separate things, is one of false imagination - a dream > to be awakened from. The truth, I believe, is that it is actually seamless > reality in disguise. We have no need to go anywhere for nibbana. It is > right here. We only need to drop the scales from our eyes. > ------------------------------------------ While I accord with you in seeing the potential of perceiving nibbana within the passing flow of seamless manifestations, I don't see nibbana itself as including the flow, but being the still point within and beyond it. Perhaps it's just a difference of emphasis. There is a place where the world disappears, even beyond its seamlessness. Coming back to multiplicity from nibbana, I assume one would see it as you describe it, as mere variation on the substanceless reality. One who has seen water when it is perfectly still and clear continues to understand its nature when it is frothed up. So in that sense one may known nibbana within the seemingness of samsara. ---------------------------------------------------- Could be. :-) What I said and what you say here and Ken's understanding - all these are all proverbial pointing fingers. The reality is what it is. I'm sure it is good. :-) ----------------------------------------------- Well all of this is over my actual head, speaking of water, and is the product of my Dhamma-oriented imagination. When I have had moments of perceiving this shifting reality as a clear and seamless display, it makes perfect sense without interpretation; and then one is pulled away down the rapids again. :-) ------------------------------------------------ :-) --------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. =============================== With metta, Howard Look! Look! /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, One would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #112874 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Look! Look! > > > /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by > the root, One would go about searching for what?/ > > (From the Udapana Sutta) A perfect New Year's accompaniment to my favorite Abraham Heschel quote, from his translation of Jeremiah: "Woe unto the children of Israel, for you have forsaken Me, the Fountain of Living Waters, and have hewed out cisterns for yourself, cracked cisterns that can hold no water." Happy New Year! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112875 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/31/2010 5:19:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Look! Look! > > > /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by > the root, One would go about searching for what?/ > > (From the Udapana Sutta) A perfect New Year's accompaniment to my favorite Abraham Heschel quote, from his translation of Jeremiah: "Woe unto the children of Israel, for you have forsaken Me, the Fountain of Living Waters, and have hewed out cisterns for yourself, cracked cisterns that can hold no water." ------------------------------------------------------- :-) Water/fountain seems to be a universal metaphor for spiritual sustenance! (I like the quotation.) ---------------------------------------------------- Happy New Year! --------------------------------------------------- Likewise, my friend! :-) ------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112876 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:30 pm Subject: Patience is the Highest Praxis! bhikkhu5 Friends: Patience is the 6th Perfection: The characteristic of patience is acceptance, its function is to endure, and its manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. The effect of patience is calm tranquility despite presence of intensely stirring provocation.. Patience of the will produces forgiving forbearance! Patience of the intellect produces faith, confidence and certainty! Patience of the body produces resolute and tenacious endurance! Internal tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance... External tolerance of other beings is forbearance and forgiveness... He who patiently protects himself, protects also all other beings! He who patiently protects all other beings, protects also himself! Not from speaking much is one called clever. The patient one is free from anger and free from fear, only such steady persisting one, is rightly called clever... Dhammapada 258 Patient tolerance is the highest praxis... Nibbâna is the supreme Bliss! So say all the Buddhas. Dhammapada 184 The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, Who endures abuse, flogging and even imprisonment, Such one, armed with stamina, the great force of tolerance, Such stoic one, who self-possessed can accept, I call a Holy One! Dhammapada 399 One should follow those who are determined, tolerant, and enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, clever, good-willed and evidently Noble. One shall stick to them as the moon remains in its regular orbit. Dhammapada 208 Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry, but do my bidding: Remain pervading them and all others with a friendly Awareness imbued with an all-embracing good-will, kind, rich, expansive, and immeasurable! Free from hostility, free from any ill will. Always remembering this very Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. Majjhima Nikâya 21 The five ways of removing irritating annoyance: Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any irritation can be entirely removed by a Bhikkhu, when it arises in him. What are these five ways? 1: Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 2: Understanding can be undertaken towards an irritating person or state.. 3: On-looking Equanimity can be kept towards an irritating person or state.. 4: One can forget and ignore the irritating person, mental or physical state.. 5: Ownership of Kamma of the irritating person can be reflected upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his actions, is indeed born of his actions and only he is responsible for his actions be they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with the irksome can be instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, and by which any irritation can be entirely removed in a friend, exactly when it arises... A nguttara Nikâya V 161 Buddha to his son Râhula : Develop an Imperturbable Mind like the elements: Râhula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike will not obsess your mind! Râhula, on the earth is dumped both the pure and the impure: excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not detest any of those... Even and exactly so make your mind stable like the earth! Râhula, develop a mind like water, then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain will not seize your mind. Râhula with water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with water are excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet the water does not despise any of that! Even so make the mind fluid and adaptable like the water! Râhula, develop a mind like fire, then the contacts of any arisen attraction or aversion will neither consume, nor hang on to your mind! Râhula, fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet the fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine the mind into a tool like an all consuming and purifying fire! Râhula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of arisen delight and frustration does neither take hold of, nor remain in your mind. Space does not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled and unestablished like open space. When you expand mind like space, contacts of delight and frustration will neither be able to dominate, nor obsess your mind... Majjhima Nikâya 62 More on the 10 mental perfections (paramis): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Patience is the Highest Praxis! #112877 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 7:32 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah sarahprocter... Hi Rob, Lukas & All, Wishing everyone a Happy and Wise New Year with more understanding at the present moment, beginning now! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > I was also suffering when young, but now I prefer delight in life. I forget samevega. I dont like it cause I like samevega. But what can I do to have it more now? > > Ha ha, well that is a problem only Buddhists have - wanting to be more unhappy when they are too happy! :-) .... S: That was a funny reply too :-) I think we can only talk about a true sense of urgency or "spirituality" that comes with an increased understanding, an increased insight into dhammas. The urgency that people often see when life is very difficult or when they face a lot of unhappiness is not the same as an understanding of the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all condtioned dhammas is it? Metta Sarah ============ #112878 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 7:43 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han (2) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you very much for your feed-back. > > > [Sarah]: Can I ask you a qu? Why do you want to make sure there are no "stray thoughts" entering your mind then or even now? Assuming there are stray thoughts now, what does the Mahasatipatthana Sutta say about them? according to your understanding > > [Han] > My understanding of Mahaasatipa.t.thaana sutta is just what is mentioned in the books. > When a stray thought enters my mind, I must know (pajaanaati) that a stray thought enters my mind. .... S: Do you understand that knowing (pajaanaati) "stray thoughts" and making sure there are no "stray thoughts" to be the same? Doesn't "saraaga.m citta"nti" refer to cittas accompanied by attachment? .... > > Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu saraaga.m vaa citta.m "saraaga.m citta"nti pajaanaati, > viitaraaga.m vaa citta.m "viitaraaga.m citta"nti pajaanaati. > > Here, a monk knows a lustful mind as lustful mind; > a mind free from lust as free from lust. ... S: Ah, yes, the translation here.... The text refers to "knowing", not to making sure such cittas don't arise, surely? .... > > Han: The trouble with me [I said *with me*, may not be with other people] is that I have to *know* more evil thoughts when "on-cushion" than when "off-cushion". So I do not benefit from it. Here, I must say categorically that it was my failure, and not the technique. I do not have enough patience, concentration and understanding to overcome the stray thoughts that enter my mind. .... S: Don't your think that the problem for us all is a lack of understanding of what is conditioned at the present moment, regardless of the situation we find ourselves in? .... > Therefore, I am looking for an alternative. If I cannot conquer the stray thoughts by *knowing* them, I will have to block them, as much as possible, from entering my mind. When I read the Dhamma books, or listen to Dhamma tapes, or reflect on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with the prayer beads, the sense objects and mental objects generated by these activities are strong enough to ward off all other thoughts, including the evil thoughts. My aim is to have less evil thoughts as possible *then* and *now*. Of course, the *now* is more difficult, as it needs more concentration. ... S: More concentration of more understanding with detachment? No need to reply or continue the thread if you'd prefer not to Han. Quite understood. In any case, our very best wishes for a healthy and wise New Year - with a minimum of those pesky stray and evil thoughts:-)) Metta Sarah ====== #112879 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Dear Howard, A Happy New Year and best wishes for your snow removal! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > S: Yes - kusala and akusala cittas, kusala and akusala kamma which > conditions various rupas which we call deeds or speech. > ================================== >H: Sarah, you did something very well here that you may not have > realized: Without denying bodily and speech deeds/actions, you have defined them > (as "various rupas"). Of course, we all know that deeds do not constitute > some new category of phenomena, but it is good, clarifying actually, to > explicitly state their nature, for what is known just implicitly can only be half > known, and making it explicit removes murkiness. .... S: Thx and agreed. ... > The only thing that I think might have been further emphasized in the > definition is that the rupas be *fairly directly* intention-induced: An > itch on the hand would *not* be a deed even though it is, I presume, vipaka, > but the motion that is the scratching of the itch, *would* be a deed. .... S: As you know, four causes of rupas are given: citta, kamma, ahara (nutriment) and temperature. What we refer to as "the itch on the hand" are various rupas (temperature/motion/temperature) experienced by body consciousness, accompanied by unpleasant feeling. The body consciousness is vipaka. The rupas experienced at such a time may, in this case, be conditioned by any of the causes given above, I'd think. The deed of the scratching of the itch would refer to various rupas conditioned by citta, including kaya vinnati (bodily intimation). Many rupas, esp. vayo (wind/motion) are involved. .... >The > smelling of baking bread, though vipaka I think, would not be a deed, but > opening the oven door in order to get a better smell of it would be. .... S: The smelling is vipaka and, as you say, "the opening of the door" again refers to various rupas conditioned by cittas, in this case cittas accompanied by attachment. These cittas are conditioning the intimation rupas and other associated rupas to perform "the deed". In both these examples, the deeds are being performed by "ordinary" (sama) lobha or dosa (in the first example). This lobha and dosa accumulates but is not of itself strong enough to be akusala kamma patha that can bring any results by way of future vipaka. ... >An > involuntary groan from pain in a hospital bed after surgery is probably not "a > deed," but calling for a nurse or pressing a button to release some analgesic > would be. ... S: In the case of the groan, still rupas conditioned by cittas, but if involuntary, no speech intimation involved. In the second case, there is the "conveying of a meaning", so bodily intimation involved along with all the other rupas. In the second case, no sound rupa conditioned by citta however. ... > I also wonder whether a bodily deed must not always involve movement. > Can you think of examples of physical deeds that do not involve movement? ... S: Probably by your definition there must always be movement. However, the cittas can be just as strong if not stronger when there is no movement. For example, if someone is unable to move their body or if someone is responsibile for a physical deed, such as killing, but gives an instruction to another person to do the act. In Abhidhamma, the subject gets a lot deeper when discussing which acts and deeds are classified as being through body-door and through mind-door. I gave some examples before which I can fish out if you're really interested. The main thing, however, is to understand the citta or the rupa appearing now, rather than getting lost in the theory (as most of us can do very easily)! Metta Sarah ========= #112880 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:07 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Wishing you a wonderful and wise New Year too! Any snow problems in Poland now/ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: Well, I would say, if the mental health is good why bother to study Dhamma. If everything is OK, than we dont even see a needs to change situation. I think if the mental health is bad, depresions, schizophremian etc. This people can have very profound and urgent way of finding a relief. This relief can be a Dhamma. .... S: Very well said! If any of us were in "good mental health", we wouldn't need to hear or study the Teachings at all! The Buddha knew that we were all in bad mental health and that is why, out of his great compassion, he taught us the Dhamma. So let's study and appreciate what we've heard at this very moment! This moment is the only opportunity there ever is for good mental health! Metta Sarah ===== #112881 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:55 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Ha ha, well, as you predicted, I have run into more snow than I expected. I traveled away from the relatively clear weather in DC with my family to spend about a week in New York, and everything was fine. I even toyed with the idea of trying to see Howard - so far every time I come to NY it's too short and I can't plan any visits of my own; but in any case yesterday NY City was hit by an enormous blizzard. ... S: Thx for sharing your experiences (snipped for now). Hope you and Howard get together next time - make sure you send us a pic and tell us aboout it then too! ... <...> > I like to hit the Dhamma from all angles - if I can get a little samatha going - real or otherwise - to give the little cittas a break from big and little sufferings, I'm all for it! If satipatthana arises however, I will not reject it! :-) ... S: :-)) I know you don't believe that you can really get anything going! ... <.... > ...That is where I think we disagree, where it seems like an "all or nothing" type of proposition and that only someone highly advanced has any hope of experienceing a kusala state. I just think kusala is available - maybe it is coarse kusala, or interrupted kusala, but I think at times if you have a nice yoga session and you have a calm deep relaxation that it really can be real samatha and really kusala. .... S: I think that we can begin to know more and more about kusala and akusala, but the more that understanding develops, the more of what we're used to taking for being kusala, for being samatha (calm) as in your last example, perhaps, turns out in fact to be akusala. But, certainly, kusala can arise anytime, any place at all - in a "nice yoga session", in a "deep relaxation", anytime. Btw, I went to some yoga classes here over the holiday - every morning for a couple of hours, actually, for a packed end of year workshop. On one day, the teacher was asking the class about missions and resolutions and so on. No one was speaking up, so I made some comments about present moment understanding of what is experienced, keeping the words as simple and basic as I could. I mentioned this had been the same "goal" every year for ten, twenty, thirty, more years. Anyway, it seemed to create quite a stir and afterwards a lot of people came up to me to say how much they appreciated the present moment emphasis and one or two even said they'd like to discuss it further. We never know when we may have a chance to share something useful. (The teacher re-interpreted my words by indicated that this was "the essence of being", but I just smiled;-)) .. > Why not just accept the good things when they come, rather than think it's not quite the real thing yet? I think the developmental path demands that we look at little increments of kusala, samatha and insight, and appreciate them, rather than wait for complete satipatthana to appear. .... S: I think that it's also a path of truthfulness and detachment. Yes, we can appreciate the little kusala, the little samatha and insight there may be in a day, but more important is to understand how much ignorance there is, how most of what we take for being 'the good things' is really just more attachment. <....> > > S: I don't think we should be concerned about *staying* calm, aware or anything else. Again, this seems likes clinging to ourselves and our mental states. > > I think there's a lot of truth in what you say, I just don't see it as absolute. I try to keep an eye out for kusala to sneak in amidst the akusala. ..... S: I think the best way is to just accept, understand what "is", rather than wishing or keeping an eye out for any dhamma in particular. Actually, this came up in the yoga class chat too. After saying my piece about present moment experiences, the teacher with his "essence of being" slant, added a comment about how this is peaceful, calm and so on. I said that, actually, I had meant understanding and accepting whatever arises now - the greeds, the anxieties, all kinds of experiences, not just calm and good. I'm not sure that bit went down so well and I hadn't got close to mentioning seeing and visible object! Maybe next year! I think I will bring back one of Nina's books from Sydney for the teacher, however. (Nina, I like "The Buddha's Path" best for beginners or as an intro, but wonder if there are copies anywhere?) .... <...> > Thanks for sharing that. Hm...we have a lot in common in daily type stuff. Hope we get to meet someday. .... S: Me too.....we'd laugh a lot, I know! I'll visit you in Washington one day and you can just provide some green tea and a yoga mat while we chat Dhamma:-) <...> >As I get just a little older, and not certain of my next rebirth, I'm extending this life to do more work on defilements before I get on the big slide to the next life. .... S: :-)) yes, drink more green tea and make the most of the opportunities! We're packing some green tea for our trip to Bkk tomorrow as I write! .... > I do think those physical difficulties sort of naturally breed a certain kind of mindfulness, rather than taking the moments for granted, but they are not so easy to deal with! ... S: So you're saying that the healthy, extended life and the physical difficulties 'breed...mindfulness'....hmmmm, keeping all bases covered, it seems:-)) Wishing you and your family a great, wise and healthy New Year (regardless of any of those mindfulness-breeding difficulties en route)! Metta Sarah ======= #112882 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:23 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >R: So the intention/mental factors of "hatred" for instance would have to be very strong in order to bring about the experiencing of "killing" and its result for the vipaka cittas. Is that about right? ... S: Yes. The intention involved in a passing thought of wishing the bug was dead and the intention involved when actually swatting it/stamping on it and killing it is different. For it to be an act of killing, there has to be the intention to kill, the action and the death of that sentient being. .... >R: As you say, the *reality* of "rebirth in a woeful state" is that we go through a period of time in the future in which very unpleasant experiential objects impinge on the senses. .... S: Yes, exactly. We get many "tastes" of such woeful state in this life, so we can just begin to imagine what it's like to have seemingly uninterrupted unpleasant experiences through the senses. ... > > You also mention that all seeing and hearing are vipaka. I derive from this that there are no actual objects of seeing and hearing other than the types of dhammas that are produced by particular types of kammas. Would that be on the right track? ... S: Not quite. Seeing is the vipaka citta (result of kamma). The visible object seen now may have been conditioned by temperature, for example, if outside the body. This visible object is a condition for the seeing to experience it. .... >If we have been conditioned to experience certain rupas such as hardness of a certain kind, texture of ridges, brown and green visual colors, etc., as the concept "tree," and we experience these rupas as pleasant through vedana, then perhaps if we have a preponderence of kusala kammas we will be "born" into a place with nice lawns and pleasant trees, and we will experience those pleasant rupas for a while, until some other kamma kicks in. .... S: Well, sort of! The human rebirth is a result of kusala kamma and there are conditions during this life for a lot of kusala vipaka to experience pleasant objects through the senses. As a result, there is also a lot of attachment! This pales in comparison to the kusala vipaka and conditions for attachment in the heavenly planes! At least there is enough akusala vipaka for dosa to arise and be known! All kinds of dhammas have to be experienced and known, including all the sense experiences and objects. In the arupa brahma realm, there are no rupas and therefore there is no chance to become a sotapanna there. .... <...> > Well, Buddha spoke clearly about akusala actions and deeds and physical involvements to avoid. There is no way that Buddha meant something other than "don't drink" when he said to avoid alcohol. .... S: He recommended the avoidance of alcohol, not because the cittas involved in drinking alcohol are necessarily akusala, but because of the effect of alcohol, the diminished responsibility it leads to and the likelihood of breaking other precepts (akusala kamma patha then involved). Also, the habit, the tendency to drink accumulates and this is dangerous for the same reason. ... > I am getting a bit of a view of the Abhidhamma universe of one dhamma at a time in a field of anatta events and it is a very weird universe indeed. Nothing exists except these momentary experiences and then they are gone. .... S: Exactly correct! The world just exists at this moment - one experience at a time! Tell your yoga and other friends:-)) Metta Sarah ======= #112883 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 1-jan-2011, om 9:55 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > (Nina, I like "The Buddha's Path" best for beginners or as an > intro, but wonder if there are copies anywhere?) ----- N: No more copies. I also think it useful for beginners. It needs a reprint. Nina. #112884 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, (last post for a while, so no hurry to reply, anyone!) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > The kusala or akusala cittas and cetasikas arise on account of what seen or heard. The seeing or hearing are vipaka (result of kamma), but there may be such attachment or annoyance on account of what is seen or heard that more kamma is produced. We think we see an annoying bug, but only visible object is actually seen! How absurd to be infatuated or maddened by what is just experienced momentarily through the senses! That's why the understanding of seeing, visible object and so on leads to true calm and detachment and the eradication of akusala kamma. > >R: This is a very good statement. One can see how crazy the whole thing is. And if you look at life this way you can see so many instances of people just reacting to reactions and then reacting all over again. I think I noticed myself doing it a number of times in the last 1/2 hour! And yet it seems very difficult to stop. I guess that's the whole thing in a nutshell in a way... .... S: Well, beginning to understand what is happening is the beginning, isn't it? > > >S: The sotapanna will no longer have any idea of killing the bug. > >R: Just out of curiosity, what would the sotapanna do with a deadly bug or snake? Just assume that unless kamma is bad they won't bite him? Or would he carefully collect them and release them in the woods without any harm? .... S: Whatever he/she has accumulation to do - run away/call for help/collect and release - but not deliberately harm it. ... > > I remember that Anders, who was here for a while a few years ago, got in the habit of letting mosquitoes take a little blood from his arm, and then when they had a decent amount he would gently chase them off without harming them. "They have to eat too" he said. :-) I'm not quite at that point...to say the least... .... S: I prefer to gently brush them off before they've taken the blood, but sometimes I'm doing my tai chi or yoga and prefer not to stop, so they have more than a little feed first ;-) No rules. My normally serene tai chi teacher used to go into a complete swatting frenzy at the sight of a mosquito. Everyone has their particular tendencies. .... <...> > When cetana accumulates, is that the same as kamma accumulating? Or is cetana a kind of "pre-kamma" until it is acted upon? ... S: yes, cetana is kamma in the examples mentioned. This can lead to "kamma proper" or kamma-patha to be precise. See "kamma-patha" in Nyantiloka's dictionary for more. .... <.... >R: The picture I am getting is that kamma [the first round of cause] is all mental intention manifesting in the experience of action; then vipaka [the second round of result] is all sensory/experiential, and then the third round of reaction would start with vedana and go from there to mental proliferations and emotions - would that be correct? ... S: Yes, almost. The third round is kusala and akusala cittas which lead to kamma(-patha). So the third round includes cittas with wholesome and unwholesome roots, not just vedana. In a rush now, so have to quickly sign off. We can discuss this last point more. See also "Rounds x 3" in "Useful Posts" if you have time. Metta Sarah ======= #112885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's example letting go of guilt nilovg Dear Anthony, Op 31-dec-2010, om 10:41 heeft antony272b2 het volgende geschreven: > When the Bodhisatta performed coarse austerities, what kilesas had > he yet to uproot and which paramis did he still have to develop? ------ N: So long as he had not become the Sammaa-sambudha he still had all kinds of defilements. He had to develop all perfections for aeons. He did not forget his goal while he developed the perfections. When he was Harita he succumbed to the charms of the queen, but he told the truth to the king. He developed the perfection of truthfulness. A Bodhisatta may commit transgressions, but he may never tell lies, otherwise he could not attain Buddhahood. ------ Nina. #112886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 31-dec-2010, om 5:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > We may see the momentary dhammas in a fleeting way and come to > understand that life is changing from moment to moment. But that is > not where we get the main lessons about attachment. We get those > lessons and have to deal with clinging when our marriage breaks up > or when our friend dies. Those are the things that we cling to and > that we are attached to, not a remote impersonal dhamma in an > isolated moment. > > There has to be a way that the whole path comes together with > *actual* everyday life, not just idealized everyday life that is > seen only by arahants. So I think it is a mistake to say about > conventional relations, "oh that is just a concept, it is > meaningless," when that is where most of us have most of our > meaning invested, and have to actually find detachment there first. > Or at least face that that's where the attachment lies. --------- N: An interesting topic also discussed with Phil. The Buddha taught in a conventional way and by way of paramattha dhammas, depending on the maturity of the listener. When a sorrowful event happened in life such as the loss of a dear person, the Buddha knew whether this person was ready for the deeper Dhamma. We read in the suttas about a gradual teaching. You explained about contemplation of different subjects and stressed that you did not mean a superficial thinking on these subjects that anyone can do, but a deeper contemplation. I know what you mean. It is different from casual thinking about events. There are different levels of understanding. We all have accumulated different inclinations. I do not see understanding what appears at the present moment as technical or as a remote dhamma. It is very near, I would say. You speak about finding detachment first at the conventional level. But our attachment is so deeply rooted, it cannot be rooted out by just thinking, even when that is a deeper contemplation. That is still reasoning and many moments of attachment come in while we are reasoning, we like the idea, and Phil would say, we find it so comfortable, consoling. We can gradually come to understand (after many periods of ups and downs) that only direct understanding of realities can pull out all the evil roots. I would like to quote from the Perfections about mindfulness of death, a subject that different people contemplate with different levels of understanding: (end quote). ***** Nina. #112887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singleness and multiplicity. was: The clansman.. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 31-dec-2010, om 5:26 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I would guess that the experience of "singleness," or single-minded > concentration away from sense objects and towards the object of > jhana, would also continue in the higher states of non-perception, > non-feeling, emptiness, etc. and into the experience of nibbana > which would have nibbana as the single object of concentration. > Would that be off-base? ------- The subco : Nibbaana or the lokuttara cittas that experience it are not mentioned here. I would rather keep to the commentary, otherwise it may be our own speculation. Nina. #112888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Khun Sujin, Bangkok Dec 10 (6) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 30-dec-2010, om 8:41 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > N: I have it in Thai and can find the Saariputta Niddesa, but next > > time could Acharn give the section or page? It is very long and I do > > not know where to look. It is a very interesting Niddesa. I could > > translate the section. > ... > S: I'd be very interested to read your translation. She doesn't > have the texts with her in the countryside as far as I know. So she > just had a scrap of paper with the ref. for me. In Bkk, I could try > to ask. "Viputa" she mentioned need not just refer to panna but any > khandha - something like that. > .... > > Viputa may be in our dict. vibhuuta vihaari, vibhuuta is clear, > > distinct. It is about ways of teaching. > ... > S: Yes, I'm sure it would be vibhuuta vihaari - I was just guessing > at the spelling of the first word. I'll try to raise it again. Let > me know if you have anything else on it, perhaps. Something she > keeps stressing. ------ N: It may be time consuming for Acharn to look it up. Perhaps Khun Kampan? As you say she finds it important, keeps stressing it. The Thai prononciation : what is p is for us b. ----- Nina. #112889 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/1/2011 3:04:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Howard, A Happy New Year and best wishes for your snow removal! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > S: Yes - kusala and akusala cittas, kusala and akusala kamma which > conditions various rupas which we call deeds or speech. > ================================== >H: Sarah, you did something very well here that you may not have > realized: Without denying bodily and speech deeds/actions, you have defined them > (as "various rupas"). Of course, we all know that deeds do not constitute > some new category of phenomena, but it is good, clarifying actually, to > explicitly state their nature, for what is known just implicitly can only be half > known, and making it explicit removes murkiness. .... S: Thx and agreed. ... > The only thing that I think might have been further emphasized in the > definition is that the rupas be *fairly directly* intention-induced: An > itch on the hand would *not* be a deed even though it is, I presume, vipaka, > but the motion that is the scratching of the itch, *would* be a deed. .... S: As you know, four causes of rupas are given: citta, kamma, ahara (nutriment) and temperature. What we refer to as "the itch on the hand" are various rupas (temperature/motion/temperature) experienced by body consciousness, accompanied by unpleasant feeling. The body consciousness is vipaka. The rupas experienced at such a time may, in this case, be conditioned by any of the causes given above, I'd think. The deed of the scratching of the itch would refer to various rupas conditioned by citta, including kaya vinnati (bodily intimation). Many rupas, esp. vayo (wind/motion) are involved. ---------------------------------------------- The itching is not a deed, but the scratching is. Is not he scratching volition-induced (in part) and also involving motion? ------------------------------------------- .... >The > smelling of baking bread, though vipaka I think, would not be a deed, but > opening the oven door in order to get a better smell of it would be. .... S: The smelling is vipaka and, as you say, "the opening of the door" again refers to various rupas conditioned by cittas, in this case cittas accompanied by attachment. These cittas are conditioning the intimation rupas and other associated rupas to perform "the deed". --------------------------------------------- The smelling is involuntary and not a deed, but the opening of the door is voluntary and involves movement, and it is a deed. ------------------------------------------- In both these examples, the deeds are being performed by "ordinary" (sama) lobha or dosa (in the first example). This lobha and dosa accumulates but is not of itself strong enough to be akusala kamma patha that can bring any results by way of future vipaka. ... >An > involuntary groan from pain in a hospital bed after surgery is probably not "a > deed," but calling for a nurse or pressing a button to release some analgesic > would be. ... S: In the case of the groan, still rupas conditioned by cittas, but if involuntary, no speech intimation involved. In the second case, there is the "conveying of a meaning", so bodily intimation involved along with all the other rupas. In the second case, no sound rupa conditioned by citta however. ------------------------------------------- The calling and the pressing of a button each are voluntary and each involve movement, and these are deeds.But an involuntary groan, though involving movement, is not a deed. ---------------------------------------- ... > I also wonder whether a bodily deed must not always involve movement. > Can you think of examples of physical deeds that do not involve movement? ... S: Probably by your definition there must always be movement. ------------------------------------------- My definition aside, the question is whether there are ready example so involuntary actions that are considered deeds. Likewise, are there ready examples of deeds not involving motion? -------------------------------------- However, the cittas can be just as strong if not stronger when there is no movement. For example, if someone is unable to move their body or if someone is responsibile for a physical deed, such as killing, but gives an instruction to another person to do the act. ---------------------------------------- Giving an instruction by speech or writing is volitional, and it involves movement - and it is certainly a deed. Is this not the case for all physical deeds? I am unaware of examples to the contrary. -------------------------------------- In Abhidhamma, the subject gets a lot deeper when discussing which acts and deeds are classified as being through body-door and through mind-door. I gave some examples before which I can fish out if you're really interested. ------------------------------------------ I'm only dealing with body-door deeds. ---------------------------------------- The main thing, however, is to understand the citta or the rupa appearing now, rather than getting lost in the theory (as most of us can do very easily)! ----------------------------------------- If one bothers to discuss what some things (such as physical deeds) are, then this should be done as well as possible. That's not getting lost in theory; it's just doing what was intended to be done. Physical deeds are certainly collections of rupas, but many collections of rupas are not deeds. So, more needs to be said if one is looking to become clear about what one is referring to when speaking of "deeds". ------------------------------------------ Metta Sarah ========================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112890 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 1/1/2011 9:03:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka@... writes: A Happy New Year and best wishes for your snow removal! ============================== I missed responding to this, Sarah. thank you!! :-) Have a wonderful year!! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112891 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 2:31 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: Thx for sharing your experiences (snipped for now). Hope you and Howard get together next time - make sure you send us a pic and tell us about it then too! Will do! > > I like to hit the Dhamma from all angles - if I can get a little samatha going - real or otherwise - to give the little cittas a break from big and little sufferings, I'm all for it! If satipatthana arises however, I will not reject it! :-) > ... > S: :-)) I know you don't believe that you can really get anything going! In a manner of speaking... To say it a different way, I'll happily enjoy a bit of peacefulness in whatever form it arrives. If I feel relaxed after doing yoga, I accept it as a positive experience. If something negative comes up, I won't deny that either. > S: I think that we can begin to know more and more about kusala and akusala, but the more that understanding develops, the more of what we're used to taking for being kusala, for being samatha (calm) as in your last example, perhaps, turns out in fact to be akusala. > ...kusala can arise anytime, any place at all - in a "nice yoga session", in a "deep relaxation", anytime. ...and perhaps can even be affected by "calming bodily formations..." > Btw, I went to some yoga classes here over the holiday... I made some comments about present moment understanding of what is experienced, keeping the words as simple and basic as I could... Anyway, it seemed to create quite a stir and afterwards a lot of people came up to me to say how much they appreciated the present moment emphasis... (The teacher re-interpreted my words by indicating that this was "the essence of being", but I just smiled;-)) I like that story very much. I see you also like to go to places that are happy and peaceful and make trouble. ;-) > > ...I think the developmental path demands that we look at little increments of kusala, samatha and insight, and appreciate them, rather than wait for complete satipatthana to appear. > .... > S: I think that it's also a path of truthfulness and detachment. Yes, we can appreciate the little kusala, the little samatha and insight there may be in a day, but more important is to understand how much ignorance there is, how most of what we take for being 'the good things' is really just more attachment. I'm sure that is important. I'm not too fond of being aware of suffering all the time - I have quite enough of it to satisfy my desire to see my ignorance and attachment, so I am happy to enjoy the occasional oasis, but I understand your point. > > > S: I don't think we should be concerned about *staying* calm, aware or anything else. Again, this seems likes clinging to ourselves and our mental states. > > > > I think there's a lot of truth in what you say, I just don't see it as absolute. I try to keep an eye out for kusala to sneak in amidst the akusala. > ..... > S: I think the best way is to just accept, understand what "is", rather than wishing or keeping an eye out for any dhamma in particular. I see two things - being aware of what is there in the moment; and also the development of the path. While I don't think development can be controlled, I think the kusala things that are done encourages it. Maybe I'll give up that idea when I get a little wiser...or not... > Actually, this came up in the yoga class chat too. After saying my piece about present moment experiences, the teacher with his "essence of being" slant, added a comment about how this is peaceful, calm and so on. I said that, actually, I had meant understanding and accepting whatever arises now - the greeds, the anxieties, all kinds of experiences, not just calm and good. I'm not sure that bit went down so well and I hadn't got close to mentioning seeing and visible object! Maybe next year! Like I said, a fellow trouble-maker! Actually I agree very much with that view - to be open to seeing whatever arises. Personally I get a kind of [sick?] thrill out of seeing the negative stuff that comes up, because I feel like awareness is in working order when that happens. I meant to mention here that I've been much more aware lately of how frequently "hatred" arises in the form of momentary rage or frustration in my life. I like to think of it as being "a little annoyed," but I've been getting a closer look lately and at the exact moment I can sometimes see that it is much greater than that. Somebody brushes against me and doesn't say "excuse me" and internally I get momentarily enraged. On the outside I behave perfectly nicely, although I might occasionally make a comment under my breath, but internally it feels explosive for that moment. Seeing that, my reaction is to get excited about it: "Wow! It's one of the three poisons and I saw it up close!" I want to get my camera or something and photograph it. In any case, it is a very different perspective than trying to hide or rationalize those reactions when they come up, as awareness gets more comfortable seeing all the things that arise and not taking it personally. I've also become aware that I'm really anxious - sometimes *very* anxious about normal situations - a much greater percentage of the time than I used to acknowledge. Isn't awareness fun? ;-) I think I will bring back one of Nina's books from Sydney for the teacher, however. (Nina, I like "The Buddha's Path" best for beginners or as an intro, but wonder if there are copies anywhere?) That sounds like a good book - is it online? > > Thanks for sharing that. Hm...we have a lot in common in daily type stuff. Hope we get to meet someday. > .... > S: Me too.....we'd laugh a lot, I know! :-) > I'll visit you in Washington one day and you can just provide some green tea and a yoga mat while we chat Dhamma :-) That would be an awful lot of fun! I have several kinds of really nice green tea that would be fun to share! > >As I get just a little older, and not certain of my next rebirth, I'm extending this life to do more work on defilements before I get on the big slide to the next life. > .... > S: :-)) yes, drink more green tea and make the most of the opportunities! We're packing some green tea for our trip to Bkk tomorrow as I write! Sounds good! > > I do think those physical difficulties sort of naturally breed a certain kind of mindfulness, rather than taking the moments for granted, but they are not so easy to deal with! > ... > S: So you're saying that the healthy, extended life and the physical difficulties 'breed...mindfulness'....hmmmm, keeping all bases covered, it seems:-)) Yes, the longer I live the more opportunities I'll have to experience the difficulties and breed more mindfulness. It's a win-win situation. > Wishing you and your family a great, wise and healthy New Year (regardless of any of those mindfulness-breeding difficulties en route)! Thank you very much; the same to you and Jon, and have fun in your travels, and with K. Sujin. A very happy - and mindful - 2011 to you! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112892 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 5:35 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > ...The intention involved in a passing thought of wishing the bug was dead and the intention involved when actually swatting it/stamping on it and killing it is different. For it to be an act of killing, there has to be the intention to kill, the action and the death of that sentient being. I want to try to get this as clearly in my mind as possible. My understanding from Jon is that the act itself does not, in a sense, matter, or perhaps even exist as we conceptualize it. So what we call "killing" is just certain cittas arising. Perhaps that's too radical, and you wouldn't actually say the act doesn't exist, but in any case it is not where the significance lies. That being the case, I don't quite understand why the intention which leads to the commission of the killing is without exception more serious kamma than the intention which leads to considering or wanting to kill. If I really want to kill someone and I get a second away from committing the act and someone stops me at the last moment, I have had the full intention of committing murder, even though I was presented from physically carrying it out; so if it is *just* intention that produces the kamma, the full weight of kamma should be on my shoulders from that full intention. The fact that I "failed to kill" is a matter of happenstance. However, as I understand you, you are saying that even in such a case, the one who commits the act has a fuller intention that carries fuller kamma than the one who fully wants to commit the act but fails to do so. Do I have that right? If that is right, why does the act itself carry so much weight, if all the kamma is in the intention? If this is a question that would be suitable for K. Sujin, I would be very interested in having her answer to this question. > > You also mention that all seeing and hearing are vipaka. I derive from this that there are no actual objects of seeing and hearing other than the types of dhammas that are produced by particular types of kammas. Would that be on the right track? > ... > S: Not quite. Seeing is the vipaka citta (result of kamma). The visible object seen now may have been conditioned by temperature, for example, if outside the body. This visible object is a condition for the seeing to experience it. If the seeing is vipaka, but the appearance of the object seen can come from other conditions, how can the kamma 'arrange' for the correct object to appear in the sense-door as the fruit of the given kamma? I don't quite get that. Is it that the kamma will not fully come to fruition until the right object [eg, from temperature] is able to appear so that the vipaka can be activated? I assume that the vipaka which represents the fruition of a particular kamma must have a particular kind of object appear in the sense-door in order for it to "match" the kamma involved; eg, if I have killed a bug and I am thus due an unpleasant vipaka, then an unpleasant object, such as rotten food, let's say, would have to be available to create the vipaka, is that not so? And further, perhaps that rotten food would not be discovered by someone with kusala kamma coming due, while my "bug-killing" kamma may lead me to the moments of seeing and smelling during which I get to experience the rotten food. But in order for that to happen, the rotten food has to be available so that the vipaka has an appropriate object to impinge on the sense doors. Yes? So can vipaka come into play at various times, depending partially on when an appropriate sense object is available? > .... > >If we have been conditioned to experience certain rupas such as hardness of a certain kind, texture of ridges, brown and green visual colors, etc., as the concept "tree," and we experience these rupas as pleasant through vedana, then perhaps if we have a preponderence of kusala kammas we will be "born" into a place with nice lawns and pleasant trees, and we will experience those pleasant rupas for a while, until some other kamma kicks in. > .... > S: Well, sort of! The human rebirth is a result of kusala kamma and there are conditions during this life for a lot of kusala vipaka to experience pleasant objects through the senses. As a result, there is also a lot of attachment! This pales in comparison to the kusala vipaka and conditions for attachment in the heavenly planes! At least there is enough akusala vipaka for dosa to arise and be known! All kinds of dhammas have to be experienced and known, including all the sense experiences and objects. In the arupa brahma realm, there are no rupas and therefore there is no chance to become a sotapanna there. This makes sense, but I wonder whether there must be a certain degree of akusala kamma to determine what kind of human birth we experience and the conditions after that. Is it a degree of kusala that determines the type of human life? For instance, if I spent the last life thinking of metta and radiating metta every day for several hours and I felt joy and lovingkindness on many occasions and helped others even when it was a personal detriment to myself, such as giving my money away, that might generate a lot of kusala kamma. Someone else may have avoided harming anyone but never gone out of his way to help anyone either - perhaps he would have kusala kamma but not as much. So maybe person A would wind up in the next birth having a very nice life with a wealthy family, while person B might wind up in a troubled situation with a lot of family fighting etc. Meanwhile a person C who was not a bad person but did a few definitely bad things in his life might merit a human birth but would wind up in a pretty desperate situation without much hope of improvement. Would this make sense in a rough sort of way? If this is so, my question would be: person A who had the most merit experiences the least akusala vipaka of the three people. Doesn't that give him less opportunity to see the disadvantages of attachment and learn to discern and detach? Or does it work in a different way? > <...> > > Well, Buddha spoke clearly about akusala actions and deeds and physical involvements to avoid. There is no way that Buddha meant something other than "don't drink" when he said to avoid alcohol. > .... > S: He recommended the avoidance of alcohol, not because the cittas involved in drinking alcohol are necessarily akusala, but because of the effect of alcohol, the diminished responsibility it leads to and the likelihood of breaking other precepts (akusala kamma patha then involved). Also, the habit, the tendency to drink accumulates and this is dangerous for the same reason. I can understand this example, but what about murder or stealing, acts which in themselves are clearly wrong and must be akusala? They are also acts, and they are *always* akusala, are they not? If so, then the acts themselves seem to have the akusala brand on them, rather than *only* the intentions involved. > ... > > I am getting a bit of a view of the Abhidhamma universe of one dhamma at a time in a field of anatta events and it is a very weird universe indeed. Nothing exists except these momentary experiences and then they are gone. > .... > S: Exactly correct! The world just exists at this moment - one experience at a time! Tell your yoga and other friends:-)) I will spread the word, and hopefully get a similar enthusiastic reaction as you got in your yoga class. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112893 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 5:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > ...My normally serene tai chi teacher used to go into a complete swatting frenzy at the sight of a mosquito. Everyone has their particular tendencies. That is very funny, although I guess not so funny for the mosquitoes. Appreciated the rest of your discussion of vipaka and the resultant akusala cittas. Look forward to more when you have time! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112894 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 5:58 am Subject: Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ...The Buddha taught > in a conventional way and by way of paramattha dhammas, depending on > the maturity of the listener. When a sorrowful event happened in life > such as the loss of a dear person, the Buddha knew whether this > person was ready for the deeper Dhamma. We read in the suttas about a > gradual teaching. > You explained about contemplation of different subjects and stressed > that you did not mean a superficial thinking on these subjects that > anyone can do, but a deeper contemplation. I know what you mean. It > is different from casual thinking about events. Yes, thanks for your acknowledgment of that. I know it's not the same level as seeing the momentary reality, but it is still something of importance. > There are different levels of understanding. We all have accumulated > different inclinations. I do not see understanding what appears at > the present moment as technical or as a remote dhamma. It is very > near, I would say. I would think this to be true when experienced, rather than thought about abstractly. > You speak about finding detachment first at the conventional level. > But our attachment is so deeply rooted, it cannot be rooted out by > just thinking, even when that is a deeper contemplation. That is > still reasoning and many moments of attachment come in while we are > reasoning, we like the idea, and Phil would say, we find it so > comfortable, consoling. We can gradually come to understand (after > many periods of ups and downs) that only direct understanding of > realities can pull out all the evil roots. > I would like to quote from the Perfections about mindfulness of > death, a subject that different people contemplate with different > levels of understanding: > > with each other, there is no contradiction between them. For example, > the Buddha taught mindfulness of death, mara.na sati. Moreover, he > also taught that there are three kinds of death: momentary death > (kha.nika mara.na), conventional death (sammutti mara.na) and final > death (samuccheda mara.na). ... > If we are mindful of momentary death we come to see the disadvantage > of clinging to what falls away immediately. > Thanks for the quote and for the discussion. It is opening up the subject of the relationship of conventional reality and clinging to the paramatha level to a deeper consideration. I do find it interesting and helpful. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112895 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 6:07 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > I think we can only talk about a true sense of urgency or "spirituality" that comes with an increased understanding, an increased insight into dhammas. The urgency that people often see when life is very difficult or when they face a lot of unhappiness is not the same as an understanding of the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all condtioned dhammas is it? Good point for a new year. It also opens up the meaning of samvega as something deeper than worldly discontent or disgust, something based more on understanding. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112896 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 5:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Nina and Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Op 1-jan-2011, om 9:55 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > (Nina, I like "The Buddha's Path" best for beginners or as an > > intro, but wonder if there are copies anywhere?) > ----- > N: No more copies. I also think it useful for beginners. It needs a > reprint. > Nina. There is one copy available through Amazon.com. Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1897633157 None on ebay. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112897 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 8:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Nina and Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Nina and Sarah. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > Op 1-jan-2011, om 9:55 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > > > (Nina, I like "The Buddha's Path" best for beginners or as an > > > intro, but wonder if there are copies anywhere?) > > ----- > > N: No more copies. I also think it useful for beginners. It needs a > > reprint. > > Nina. > > There is one copy available through Amazon.com. Here is the link: > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1897633157 > > None on ebay. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = Found an online copy of "The Buddha's Path" on scribd. Can be downloaded as pdf, if this is useful: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3918513/The-Buddhas-Path Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #112898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breakfast discussion with Han nilovg Dear Rob E, thank you. It is also on Zolag web. Nina. Op 2-jan-2011, om 9:05 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Found an online copy of "The Buddha's Path" on scribd. #112899 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 10:31 am Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3b ptaus1 Hi Sarah and all, > S: Wishing you a happy holiday season pt: Thanks, and wishing the same to everyone here, as well as to those who are missing though might be still reading like KenO, Alberto, Scott, Phil and others. > S: #109704 ... If you have time, would you kindly re-post it with the Pali in velthius? I think it may useful. pt: Here's the 109704 repeated with Velthius - automatic conversion through this online tool, which is even more simple to use than the one I showed you before: http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/convertpad.htm ----109704 The Vsm passage for peace: 1. I think this is the related Pali bit: Vsm, book 2, chapter 14: 463. AAramma.ne citta.m sama.m aadhiyati, sammaa vaa aadhiyati, samaadhaanamattameva vaa eta.m cittassaati samaadhi. So visaaralakkha.no, avikkhepalakkha.no vaa, sahajaataana.m sampi.n.danaraso nhaaniyacu.n.naana.m udaka.m viya, upasamapaccupa.t.thaano, visesato sukhapada.t.thaano, nivaate diipacciina.m .thiti viya cetaso .thitiiti da.t.thabbo. 2. Nanamoli translation: 139. (viii) It puts (aadhiyati) consciousness evenly (samaá¹) on the object, or it puts it rightly (sammaa) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samaadhaana) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samaadhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught. 3. In Pe Maung Tin translation, XIV, page 543, the related bit is: "...and peace of mind as manifestation." The Vsm passage for coolness: 4. I think this is the related Pali excerpt: Vsm, book 2, chapter 14: 470. Kaayassa passambhana.m kaayapassaddhi. Cittassa passambhana.m cittapassaddhi. Kaayoti cettha vedanaadayo tayo khandhaa. Ubhopi panetaa ekato katvaa kaayacittadarathavuupasamalakkha.naa kaayacittapassaddhiyo, kaayacittadarathanimaddanarasaa, kaayacittaana.m aparipphandanasiitibhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa, kaayacittapada.t.thaanaa. Kaayacittaana.m avuupasamakarauddhaccaadikilesapa.tipakkhabhuutaati da.t.thabbaa. 5. Nanamoli translation: XIV,144. (xvi)-(xvii) The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body. The tranquillizing of consciousness is tranquillity of consciousness. And here body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs. 40). But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the [mental] body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the [mental] body and of consciousness. Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness. 6. In Pe Maung Tin translation, XIV, pg 544, the related bit is: ...the manifestation of an unwavering and cool state of both... Best wishes pt #112900 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:03 pm Subject: Genuine Goodwill! bhikkhu5 Friends: Genuine Goodwill Blazes & Shines! The blessed Buddha once said: Among tigers, lions, leopards and bears I lived in the jungle. None of them was frightened of me, nor did I fear any of them! Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the deep forest. Finding great solace in such sweet and silenced solitude… Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of all bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend too of any many-footed! Anguttara Nikâya IV 67 May all creatures, all breathing things; All beings, one and all, without exception, Experience good fortune only! :-) May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikâya II 72 With good will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate an infinite heart and mind: Beaming above, below, and all around, Unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipâta I <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112901 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 9:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - I realize that Sarah is the person whom you are asking and that she will provide an Abhidhammic perspective, but part of this especially interests me, and so I'll give a few of my "idle" comments on it until Sarah provides something more authoritative: In a message dated 1/2/2011 12:39:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > ...The intention involved in a passing thought of wishing the bug was dead and the intention involved when actually swatting it/stamping on it and killing it is different. For it to be an act of killing, there has to be the intention to kill, the action and the death of that sentient being. I want to try to get this as clearly in my mind as possible. My understanding from Jon is that the act itself does not, in a sense, matter, or perhaps even exist as we conceptualize it. So what we call "killing" is just certain cittas arising. Perhaps that's too radical, and you wouldn't actually say the act doesn't exist, but in any case it is not where the significance lies. ----------------------------------------------- I believe that the (volitional) act *does* matter. Intention and desire sufficient for actually attempting the steps to carry out the killing, are at an order of magnitude greater and more serious than kamma that is insufficient for that. ----------------------------------------------- That being the case, I don't quite understand why the intention which leads to the commission of the killing is without exception more serious kamma than the intention which leads to considering or wanting to kill. ---------------------------------------------- It is simply far more powerful and morally significant. To give a kusala analogue: Consider the difference between the unacted-upon impulse to save a child in the path of a car and the impulse that causes one to charge forward, grasp the child in one's arms, and carry him/her to safety even at the risk one oneself. Both intentions are kusala, but the latter one is of an order of magnitude greater. (And that is so even if one should inadvertently fail in the attempt.) -------------------------------------------- If I really want to kill someone and I get a second away from committing the act and someone stops me at the last moment, I have had the full intention of committing murder, even though I was presented from physically carrying it out; so if it is *just* intention that produces the kamma, the full weight of kamma should be on my shoulders from that full intention. ---------------------------------------------- To the extent that the intention led to an attempt at action, that is already acting, and though the action be thwarted, attempted murder has occurred. Though criminally and civilly in law, one is in a better position having not succeeded, s/he is not in a better moral position. --------------------------------------------- The fact that I "failed to kill" is a matter of happenstance. However, as I understand you, you are saying that even in such a case, the one who commits the act has a fuller intention that carries fuller kamma than the one who fully wants to commit the act but fails to do so. Do I have that right? --------------------------------------------- IMO, in a moral sense that one HAS engaged in killing. As far as what is within the power of the perpetrator, it was complete. What inadvertently occurs isn't morally relevant. --------------------------------------------- ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112902 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 2:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IV,78 chewsadhu Dear Sarah, Happy New Year 2011. I have passed the soft-copy of Nina's book, the Conditionality, to the printing company of the Buddhist center here. I was told that they are having a few title of books to be printed. So, most probably they will only print Nina's book on middle of the year. Regarding the statement in Visuddhimagga IV,78, I do not know about "life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming". But I think since their Bhavanga Citta is the Jhaana Vipaaka Citta, so it is called Bhavangajhaana. What is your comment? Thanks. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > #108819 > > How are your studies in Penang going? I know you are re-printing some of Nina's books. Anumodana. > > You gave a very good quote from the U Siilaananda talks on the 2 kinds of jhana. I appreciated it very much because it shows it's not just us who refers to these details and commentaries! Important points to stress. > > I just didn't understand your comment at the start of the post which I meant to raise before: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sadhu Chew" wrote: > > > According to that, [ruupaaruupabhavesu bhava.ngajjhaane] (life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial > > kinds of becoming) is also a kind of [appanaa] (absorption). > .... > S: Surely the bhava.ngajjhaane would just refer to the bhavanga cittas in these realms and would have nothing to do with appanaa (absorption)? > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #112903 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 2:41 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Howard and all, -------- <. . .> H: > P. S. Everybody: HAVE A HAPPY, HEALTHY, PEACEFUL, AND INSIGHTFUL NEW YEAR!! -------- Thanks Howard, a happy and insightful new year to you and all. ----------- H: > [Now, please, let us not debate the "real" meaning of that! LOLOL!] ----------- Forbidden fruit! I can't resist it! :-) Whatever happens (and no amount of good-wishing will change anything) we need only know the true nature of the present moment. That knowledge is worth all the joy and good will of the season multiplied by infinity. We should have a there-are-only-dhammas day. Every day is there-are-only-dhammas day! :-) Ken H #112904 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 5:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > The fact that I "failed to kill" is a matter of happenstance. However, as > I understand you, you are saying that even in such a case, the one who > commits the act has a fuller intention that carries fuller kamma than the one > who fully wants to commit the act but fails to do so. Do I have that > right? > --------------------------------------------- > IMO, in a moral sense that one HAS engaged in killing. As far as what > is within the power of the perpetrator, it was complete. What inadvertently > occurs isn't morally relevant. > --------------------------------------------- Well, I disagree to an extent with both you and Sarah, even though you both disagree with me for perhaps different reasons. It seems to me that the act itself has relevance beyond the intention. I may find that I'm wrong in the future, but intuitively it does not seem right to me. On this point I agree with the law - if one succeeds in taking a life that is a lot more relevant for the one who dies! If I fail, even though I tried as hard to kill as possible, the failure makes it less severe than if I succeed. The Abhidhamma view seems to reach an inevitable conclusion - there are no acts, per se. Deeds are not really 'active' but only seem so; they are really experiential, like all dhammas. That means that in reality there is no self and no other, there are only arising dhammas for various streams of cittas and they don't really touch each other as beings. If you kill someone you experience the namas and rupas of intending and killing; the 'other person' experiences the unpleasant vipaka of 'being killed,' so you are only convenient objects of experience for each other, to match each individual's vipaka from their own kamma. No real beings to kill or be killed. Your view seems to be that act is relevant, but that the intention that culmintes in such an act is where the kamma resides, and if the full intention to kill is enacted, then it is beside the point whether the person is actually killed or not, as regards kamma and the moral weight that the "killer" takes on. My view is that the intentions are extremely important, but the acts themselves also have consequential weight in their own right, and can be akusala/immoral in their own right. To me, the consequences to "others" increases the moral importance of the intention and the act. I will end with a story that contradicts all of us, from 'The Autobiography of a Yogi,' about the life of Paramahansa Yogananda, a very famous figure in the Hindu tradition of Kriya Yoga. Yogananda was sitting with his teacher, and he raised his hand to swat a fly, then thought better of it and stopped. His teacher said "You may as well kill the fly, as the anger and intention of the act has already taken place, and the karma has already been created." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IV,78 nilovg Dear Chew, Op 2-jan-2011, om 15:51 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > Regarding the statement in Visuddhimagga IV,78, I do not know about > "life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of > becoming". But I think since their Bhavanga Citta is the Jhaana > Vipaaka Citta, so it is called Bhavangajhaana. ------ N: Yes, you are right. Kusala jhaanacitta only produces vipaaka in the next life by way of pa.tisandhicitta accompanied by the jhaanafactors. All bhavangacittas are of the same type as the pa.tisandhicitta and thus also vipaaka jhaanacitta. There is no hurry for the printing of my book and I appreciate it that they will do so. With much appreciation of all your efforts, correcting all printing failures, Nina. #112906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 2-jan-2011, om 6:58 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > >I do not see understanding what appears at > > the present moment as technical or as a remote dhamma. It is very > > near, I would say. > > I would think this to be true when experienced, rather than thought > about abstractly. -------- N: We do not have to think abstractly about seeing or hearing, because they arise all the time. They are experiences that naturally arise. We are inclined to take seeing and hearing for self. By listening to the Dhamma and studying, we come to understand that different cittas experience different objects, one at a time. This listening and considering can condition the arising of sati that is directly aware of whatever appears through one of the six doorways. At the moment of sati pa~n~naa that investigates the reality that appears can gradually develop, until the idea of self is eliminated. Meanwhile we have to listen very often to explanations of realities such as seeing: it arises now, and it experiences only what appears through the eyesense, what is visible. It does not think about the meaning of what is seen, it just sees, that is all. But we are forgetful, we are more interested in the meaning of what is seen, in the concept we think about on account of what is seen. We confuse different realities, and it seems that we 'see' persons walking and sitting. We cannot try to know seeing, but by listening and considering we can be reminded to also pay attention to just seeing. It is the way that there will be less the idea of 'I see' or 'I see persons'. We cannot prevent thinking, and while we are thinking it can be known that this is not seeing but thinking. ------- Nina. #112907 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Year, was; The clansman ... nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 3-jan-2011, om 3:41 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > Whatever happens (and no amount of good-wishing will change > anything) we need only know the true nature of the present moment. > That knowledge is worth all the joy and good will of the season > multiplied by infinity. > > We should have a there-are-only-dhammas day. > > Every day is there-are-only-dhammas day! :-) ------- N: What a lovely New Year's wish, thank you. I join you in wishing happy New Year to all. Nina. #112908 From: "heffernan_dawn" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 8:18 am Subject: joining the group heffernan_dawn Hi, I'm new to this though it also seems very familiar. Just wanted to check in and log on.. it is funny how we have to learn to breath..and how our breath is so vital and so ignored. Food on the other hand which appears to be central to our lives..actually isn't. Enjoy the walk, nice to know I am not alone. Dawn #112909 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] joining the group sarahprocter... Hi Dawn, You made it! --- On Mon, 3/1/11, heffernan_dawn wrote: >Hi, I'm new to this though it also seems very familiar. Just wanted to check in and log on.. it is funny how we have to learn to breath..and how our breath is so vital and so ignored. Food on the other hand which appears to be central to our lives..actually isn't. Enjoy the walk, nice to know I am not alone. .... S: It was lovely to meet you (though, briefly) in the hotel swimming pool in Bangkok! We never know where we may have interesting encounters and chats! Obviously, you managed to get home eventually:-) (For others, we only met because Dawn and her husband were unable to get a flight back to London during the heavy snow before Xmas.) In a way we're not alone - lots of good company on the path and yet, in another sense, we are all alone. We're alone now with the breath, with the experiences through the senses, one at a time. And yes, if there were no more breath now, there'd be no more life, so we need to make the most of the present opportunity to become wiser, to understand more about the various mental and physical phenomena that make up our lives. You were reading "Mindfulness in Plain English", as I recall. Does it mention that the core of the Buddhist teachings is that while we are obsessed with our own experiences and selves, in truth there is no Self to be found? I'd be interested to hear any of your reflections on the book. Anyway, thanks for your introductory message! Metta (means loving -kindness, wishing you well) Sarah ========= #112910 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] joining the group nilovg Dear Dawn, welcome to our group. Op 3-jan-2011, om 9:18 heeft heffernan_dawn het volgende geschreven: it is funny how we have to learn to breath..and how our breath is so vital and so ignored. > Food on the other hand which appears to be central to our > lives..actually isn't. ----- N: You are right, breath is a physical phenomenon, ruupa, conditioned by consciousness, citta. Our life depends on breath and we cling to it. Also food is an important condition for life to go on. It produces and fortifies ruupas of the body. Without food you would not be able to write this post. When we understand more the different conditioning factors for the mental phenomena and physical phenomena we take for self our wrong view will gradually decline. Nina. #112911 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 10:10 am Subject: Re: joining the group jonoabb Hi Dawn Welcome. Glad you made it. Enjoyed meeting you in Bangkok. Looking forward to having you in the discussions here. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "heffernan_dawn" wrote: > > Hi, I'm new to this though it also seems very familiar. Just wanted to check in and log on.. it is funny how we have to learn to breath..and how our breath is so vital and so ignored. Food on the other hand which appears to be central to our lives..actually isn't. > Enjoy the walk, nice to know I am not alone. > Dawn > #112912 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 12:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IV,78 chewsadhu Dear Nina, Thanks and Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu. You are always very good in the Dhamma.Feel proud to know you as my Dhamma friend. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > Op 2-jan-2011, om 15:51 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > > > Regarding the statement in Visuddhimagga IV,78, I do not know about > > "life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of > > becoming". But I think since their Bhavanga Citta is the Jhaana > > Vipaaka Citta, so it is called Bhavangajhaana. > ------ > N: Yes, you are right. Kusala jhaanacitta only produces vipaaka in > the next life by way of pa.tisandhicitta accompanied by the > jhaanafactors. All bhavangacittas are of the same type as the > pa.tisandhicitta and thus also vipaaka jhaanacitta. > > There is no hurry for the printing of my book and I appreciate it > that they will do so. With much appreciation of all your efforts, > correcting all printing failures, > Nina. > > > > > #112913 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IV,78 sarahprocter... Dear Chew, --- On Sun, 2/1/11, Sadhu Chew wrote: >Regarding the statement in Visuddhimagga IV,78, I do not know about "life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming". But I think since their Bhavanga Citta is the Jhaana Vipaaka Citta, so it is called Bhavangajhaana. What is your comment? ... S: Yes, I hadn't heard the expression until you used it, but as I said, I'm sure it must refer to the bhavanga cittas in these realms not appanaa (absorption)/jhana cittas. Are you still studying some parts of the Vism? Do you have any further extracts from U Silananda you'd like to share, like the one on the two jhanas? Always good to hear from you. I always appreciate you contributions. Tomorrow we'll be spending the day with K.Sujin. I remember you disagreed with the comments on the two kinds of space. Are there any particular points you'd like me to address to her on this or any other topic? Metta Sarah p.s Thank you for telling us about your printing project. ======= #112914 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/2/2011 10:21:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard and all, -------- <. . .> H: > P. S. Everybody: HAVE A HAPPY, HEALTHY, PEACEFUL, AND INSIGHTFUL NEW YEAR!! -------- Thanks Howard, a happy and insightful new year to you and all. ----------- H: > [Now, please, let us not debate the "real" meaning of that! LOLOL!] ----------- Forbidden fruit! I can't resist it! :-) ------------------------------------------- :-) --------------------------------------- Whatever happens (and no amount of good-wishing will change anything) we need only know the true nature of the present moment. ------------------------------------------- You are almost right. Not completely right, because sometimes wishing leads to useful actions (a.k.a., to certain useful conditions), though more often than not it does not. ------------------------------------------- That knowledge is worth all the joy and good will of the season multiplied by infinity. ------------------------------------------ True knowing certainly rules, and it leads to joy and good will. ---------------------------------------- We should have a there-are-only-dhammas day. Every day is there-are-only-dhammas day! :-) ----------------------------------------------- And even better if one of those days is culminated by "Oh! They are empty too! And now look, look - there is a reality after all!!!" :-) --------------------------------------------- Ken H ========================= With metta, Howard /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #112915 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/3/2011 12:55:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Your view seems to be that act is relevant, but that the intention that culmintes in such an act is where the kamma resides, and if the full intention to kill is enacted, then it is beside the point whether the person is actually killed or not, as regards kamma and the moral weight that the "killer" takes on. ============================= If the not-carrying-through of the actual death of the victim is not due to the perpetrator but to extrinsic conditions, then the there is no offset to the perpetrator's bad kamma (or acquired moral guilt). It makes a big difference to the victim (and family and friends) of course, and to the law as regards the legal charge and criminal and civil oenalties. My perspective - thasall! ;-) With metta, Howard "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." — _AN 6.63_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html#part-5) #112916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:43 pm Subject: Ken H's wish for the New Year. nilovg Dear Ken, I am still thinking of your wish : My eye fell on something I quoted before from a conversation I had with Kh Sujin. Just in the beginning of last year my younger brother had died. ----- Nina. #112917 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 9:54 pm Subject: Mighty is Morality! bhikkhu5 Friends: Morality is the 2nd Mental Perfection: Avoiding all Harm! Doing only Good... Purifying the Mind: This is the True Dhamma of all the Buddhas! Dhammapada 183 Morality is the foundation, the initiator and the origin of all, that is fine, good and very beautiful... One must therefore purify true morality! Theragatha 612 All success is rooted in a clean morality, cultivated to purity! Theragatha 608 Morality is a mighty Power! Morality is a forceful Weapon! Morality is a supreme Jewel! Morality is a marvelous Protection! Theragatha 614 Harmlessness towards all living beings, Speaking only kind and wise truths, Taking nothing not freely given, Enjoying only one's own partner, Never abusing drinks or drugs. Having given up and left all behind these five harmful actions, such Good Ones truly possess right morality... AN III 205-6 Ananda once asked the Buddha: "What, Venerable Sir, is the rewarding advantage of morality?" "Freedom from regret, Ananda!" "And what is the advantage of freedom from regret?" "Joy that produces bliss, Ananda. Bliss then generates happiness. Happiness enables concentration. Concentration facilitates vision and knowledge. Vision and knowledge bring disillusion and detachment Disillusion and detachment induce direct experience of certain and complete mental release, Ananda…" AN X.1 Intention always comes first! Intention is of all states the primer. By intention are all things initiated. By construction of mind are all phenomena formed. So - if with good intention one thinks, speaks or acts: Joy and pleasure surely follow one, like a never-leaving shadow However - if with evil intention one thinks, speaks or acts: Pain certainly follows one, like the wheel follows the car. Dhammapada 1+2 Both the moral and immoral doings; Both the good and the bad behaviour; That human beings do here; These are truly only their own possessions...!!! These, they take along with them, when they die, go and re-arise, These actions, good, neutral and bad are what follow them, like shadows, that never ever leave... So do only what is admirable and advantageous, as an accumulating investment for the future life! Good prior doings are the only support and help for all beings, when they re-arise in the world of the next state of being… SN III 4 Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good, reaps only joy, pleasure and satisfaction ... So both here and there, the wise with merit well done and stored, enjoys the moral purity of prior actions. Dhammapada 15 Here and now the bad-doer suffers... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong and evil, reaps only pain, discontent, despair, and regret ... So both here and there, the fool with wrong views and bad behavior, suffers agony as the inevitable effect of prior evil behaviour. Dhammapada 16 As the yak-ox watches her tail even onto death, without breaking through, when caught in thorns, guard your doings as your own life, by avoiding all overstepping of this fine line, between right and wrong. The Basket of Behaviour, Cariyapitaka The Bodhisatta once as the Naga serpent King Sankhapala guarded his precepts of moral habit, even when tortured: Though pierced with sharp bamboo stakes and hacked with hunting knives, I raged no anger against these hunters, as this was my final perfection of Morality! Sankhapala Jataka no. 524 The 5 precious precepts (pañca-sila): I accept the training rule of avoiding all killing of breathing beings. I accept the training rule of not taking anything, that is not given. I accept the training rule of abstaining from any sexual misconduct. I accept the training rule of desisting from all incorrect speech. I accept the training rule of no drinks or drugs causing carelessness. True Buddhists undertake these precious precepts right here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm These are timeless laws of only pure good, which all the mighty seers of the past have fully followed and made their Way! This Virtue of Morality is like Rock: A solid foundation for all good states! Immorality creates regret, and thus destroys all joy... Purity creates calm, and thus the subtle concentration, which is necessary for gaining all higher understanding! Only higher Understanding can ever set one completely Free... <.... Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <...> #112918 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 10:19 pm Subject: Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 2-jan-2011, om 6:58 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > >I do not see understanding what appears at > > > the present moment as technical or as a remote dhamma. It is very > > > near, I would say. > > > > I would think this to be true when experienced, rather than thought > > about abstractly. > -------- > N: We do not have to think abstractly about seeing or hearing, > because they arise all the time. They are experiences that naturally > arise. We are inclined to take seeing and hearing for self. By > listening to the Dhamma and studying, we come to understand that > different cittas experience different objects, one at a time. This > listening and considering can condition the arising of sati that is > directly aware of whatever appears through one of the six doorways. > At the moment of sati pa~n~naa that investigates the reality that > appears can gradually develop, until the idea of self is eliminated. > Meanwhile we have to listen very often to explanations of realities > such as seeing: it arises now, and it experiences only what appears > through the eyesense, what is visible. It does not think about the > meaning of what is seen, it just sees, that is all. But we are > forgetful, we are more interested in the meaning of what is seen, in > the concept we think about on account of what is seen. We confuse > different realities, and it seems that we 'see' persons walking and > sitting. We cannot try to know seeing, but by listening and > considering we can be reminded to also pay attention to just seeing. > It is the way that there will be less the idea of 'I see' or 'I see > persons'. We cannot prevent thinking, and while we are thinking it > can be known that this is not seeing but thinking. Thanks for the very clear and helpful summary of the way seeing and thinking work, and the way in which sati and panna come to know what is happening. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112919 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 10:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 1/3/2011 12:55:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Your view seems to be that act is relevant, but that the intention that > culmintes in such an act is where the kamma resides, and if the full > intention to kill is enacted, then it is beside the point whether the person is > actually killed or not, as regards kamma and the moral weight that the > "killer" takes on. > > ============================= > If the not-carrying-through of the actual death of the victim is not > due to the perpetrator but to extrinsic conditions, then the there is no > offset to the perpetrator's bad kamma (or acquired moral guilt). It makes a > big difference to the victim (and family and friends) of course, and to the > law as regards the legal charge and criminal and civil oenalties. > My perspective - thasall! ;-) And appreciated, as always. I don't claim to be right either, just to have a view. :-) And for now I'm hanging on to it for dear life. ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112920 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/3/2011 5:26:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > If the not-carrying-through of the actual death of the victim is not > due to the perpetrator but to extrinsic conditions, then the there is no > offset to the perpetrator's bad kamma (or acquired moral guilt). It makes a > big difference to the victim (and family and friends) of course, and to the > law as regards the legal charge and criminal and civil oenalties. > My perspective - thasall! ;-) And appreciated, as always. I don't claim to be right either, just to have a view. :-) And for now I'm hanging on to it for dear life. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- LOLOL! Enjoy!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ===================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112921 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jan 4, 2011 1:00 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- <. . .> KH: >> Every day is there-are-only-dhammas day! :-) >> H: > And even better if one of those days is culminated by "Oh! They are empty too! And now look, look - there is a reality after all!!!" :-) --- To think conditioned dhammas were empty of "own being" would be a terrible mistake. If they were empty of own-being, and not real, there would be no *real* way leading to nibbana. It doesn't bear thinking about! :-) Ken H #112922 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jan 4, 2011 4:47 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- > <. . .> > KH: >> Every day is there-are-only-dhammas day! :-) > >> > > H: > And even better if one of those days is culminated by "Oh! They are empty too! And now look, look - there is a reality after all!!!" :-) > --- > > To think conditioned dhammas were empty of "own being" would be a terrible mistake. If they were empty of own-being, and not real, there would be no *real* way leading to nibbana. > > It doesn't bear thinking about! :-) So you're saying they are not empty, ie, do not have the characteristic of sunya? I think you're having a bit of disagreement with the Buddha. Sunya and anatta go hand in hand. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #112923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 4, 2011 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 3-jan-2011, om 23:19 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for the very clear and helpful summary of the way seeing and > thinking work, and the way in which sati and panna come to know > what is happening. ------- N: I found more material on this subject and quote: -------- Nina. #112924 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 3, 2011 10:51 pm Subject: Decisive is Determination! bhikkhu5 Friends: Determination is the 8th Mental Perfection: Only determination can completely fulfill the other mental perfections! Its characteristic is an unwavering decision, its function is to overcome hesitation, and its manifestation is unfaltering persistence in this task...! The proximate cause of determination is strong willpower to succeed! Only the power of resolute determination lifts any praxis to perfection... When the Future Buddha placed his back against the trunk of The Bodhi Tree, he right there made this mighty decision: "Let just the blood and flesh of this body dry up and let the skin & sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained that absolute supreme Enlightenment!" So determined did he invincibly seat himself, from which not even 100 earthquakes could make him waver. Jataka Nidâna A female lay follower (Upâsika) at the time of the Buddha kept pure the precepts, comprehended the nature of impermanence, the consequent fragility of the body and thereby won stream-entry (Sotâpanna)... After passing away, she re-arose as the favourite attendant of Sakka, the king of Gods. Reviewing her own merit, she remembered her prior admonition to herself: "Let this body break up as it may, herein will not be any excuse or relaxation of the effort...!" Whose mind is like a rock, determined, unwavering, immovable, without a trace of lust of urging towards all the attractions, without a trace of aversion of pushing away all the repulsive, from what, can such a refined mind ever suffer? Udana IV - 4 Using the tools of Faith, Morality, Effort, Determination, Meditation and true Understanding of the Dhamma, one gradually perfects first knowing and then behaviour. So well equipped & always aware, one becomes capable of eliminating of this great heap of suffering once and for all ... Dhammapada 144 What is being determined by Right Motivation? The decision for always being motivated to withdrawal, The decision for always being motivated to good-will, The decision for always being motivated to harmlessness, This is being determined by Right Motivation... Samyutta Nikâya XLV 8 My mind is firm like a rock, unattached to sensual things, no shaking in the midst of a world, where all is decaying and vanishing... My mind has been thus well developed, so how can suffering ever touch me? Theragatha 194 The four determinations: One should not neglect the Dhamma, One should guard well the Truth, One should be devoted to Withdrawal, and one should always train only for Peace. Majjhima Nikâya 140 Fearing being predestined for Hell if he became a King, who had to punish criminals violently, the Bodhisatta determined not to show any intelligence, and played dumb, deaf and crippled for sixteen years, only showing his real abilities, when he was on the verge of being buried alive! This was his ultimate perfection of resolute determination... The Basket of Conduct: Cariyapitaka <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112925 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jan 4, 2011 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mind vs matter. Materialsm vs Idealism. ptaus1 Hi Sarah (and Nina), Re #112487 Thanks for your reply. By the way, you've mentioned an interesting detail I haven't heard before about the bodhisatta never lying: > S: ...Even the Bodhisatta was influenced to behave very badly and break various precepts (except lying) in various rebirths. Nina also mentioned this fact in a recent post (#112885) about the bodhisatta never lying. I was wondering: - what text does that detail come from? - what's your understanding why not lying is so important (I mean, to me it seems killing someone is a much worse breach of precepts than lying)? - also, that would include all lying? So even seemingly harmless stuff like white lies, etc, would be included, right? On another related matter that Nina and you mentioned recently - when speaking about the bodhisatta in the situation when children were being mean to him - he wasn't experiencing dosa at the time, but instead he was developing the parami of equanimity: I'm wondering there, what sort of citta arises for him (while the parami of equanimity is being developed) - here's my line of thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong: 1. if there's no dosa, but developing of parami, then it's a kusala citta. 2. if there's development of parami at the time - then it must be a kusala citta with 3 roots of amoha, adosa and alobha. 3. if there's amoha (panna) but a bodhisatta cannot experience any of the insight knowledges prior to the last life, then that panna can only be of the level of intellectual understanding. Is that right? I mean, I assume a bodhisatta can never actually experience a dhamma directly so to speak (as in satipathana), otherwise he'd end up on the first stage of insight too soon. So then it seems the only sort of panna left for him is the right intellectual understanding? Though, I recall Jon saying something to the effect that a dhamma can be experienced directly (as in satipatthana), but it would not be as consistent and clear enough as experienced on the first stage of (tender) insight. So this would be satipatthana - direct experience of a dhamma, but not yet any stage of insight. So perhaps this sort of panna is also accessible to a bodhisatta? Thanks. Best wishes pt #112926 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 4, 2011 9:52 pm Subject: Happy is Harmlessness! bhikkhu5 Friends: Harming others will Hurt yourself! The Buddha pointed out Harmlessness as the best protection by saying: I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of all bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed! Anguttara Nikaya 4.67 As I am, so are others... As others are, so am I... Having thus identified self with others, Never harm anyone, nor make any hurt. Sutta-Nipâta 705 Among tigers, lions, leopards and bears I lived in the jungle. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone... Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in that sweetly silenced solitude… Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 Patient_is_Tolerance Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112927 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 2:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IV,78 chewsadhu Dear Sister Sarah, Temporary I have to on hold my Visuddhimagga study. Because I am now helping in the editing on the transcribe work of the Abhidhamma talks by Sayaadaw U Siilaananda. It is going to be 3 volumes with about 1200 pages. Regarding the comments on the two kinds of space, when I studied the history of Buddhism, (YinShun's book). The Mahaavihara sect of the Sri Lanka, when talks about unconditioned Dhamma, this sect only refers to pratisamkhyaa-nirodha, which is the Nibbaana that we say in Abhidhammatthasangaha. Whereas, the other school, Sarvastivadin, they refer to three: 1. pratisamkhyaa-nirodha, 2.apratisamkhyaa-nirodha, 3. aakaasa. Different schools of Buddhism, sometimes they define the meaning of the terms differently. Sometimes, even in the same school, there are also different kinds of opinions. When we study Abhidhammatthasangaha, we notice that too. I do not disagree with others' comments on the two kinds of space. As long as we make it clear. Thank you very much. Please share with us whatever interesting Dhamma that you are going to get from K.Sujin. Once again, Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #112928 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 1:15 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Robert E, You and I have already had this discussion - at length. ----- RE: > So you're saying they are not empty, ie, do not have the characteristic of sunya? I think you're having a bit of disagreement with the Buddha. Sunya and anatta go hand in hand. ----- As far as I know, the term sunya (sunna) does not add anything to the meaning of anatta. It is an adjective meaning void. The Buddhist dictionary gives a quote: "Void is the world . . . because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self." It also says dhammas are "coreless" and that coreless means "without core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. Speak to him, Robert, see what you can do. :-) Ken H #112929 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 4, 2011 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 1/4/2011 9:49:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. --------------------------------------------- #1 I just LOVE it (not!) when people feel free to characterize what "I am"! (I do hope you enjoy engaging in this ad hominem approach, though, Ken. :-) #2 I can only laugh when reading that voidness of absolute (i.e., non-relative) reality is contrary to conditionality. ------------------------------------------ Speak to him, Robert, see what you can do. :-) ---------------------------------------------- LOLOL! ================================== With metta, Howard P. S. Ken, did you suppose I'd run in fear at reading a "Mahayana accusation"?!! ;-)) /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) _______________________________ /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) ________________________________ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #112930 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:15 am Subject: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(1) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Another day-trip with friends to the countryside outside Ayutthaya where our good friend Khun Duangduen has a house and kindly invites us for Dhamma discussions with Khun Sujin. A small group congregated at our hotel as usual to travel by van. This time Ann (who sometimes writes here) was fortunately able to join us. She'd just arrived after midnight having flown from Tornoto to Bangkok via Beijing. No one would have known she was so sleep-deprived by her keen interest in the discussions and day's activities. Robert K was to join us later in the morning. When we arrived at our friend's house, we sat around a table with K.Sujin. 1. Ann started the discussion by asking to hear more about the experiencing of sense objects and thinking. There was a lot of discussion about the dream worlds we live in. Thinking and dreaming all day long, sanna remembering objects not just from this life but from who-knows-what life-times before. Now we're in a dream - everything has gone and will never come back. Ann may add more on this topic. 2. As we were on the topic of dreaming, I raised Howard's quote, "Like a Dream" from the Potaliya Sutta and commentary notes Nina gave (#112813, #112887) which has been discussed recently by several people. KS mentioned that the "singleness", the concentration must be referring to the samma samadhi of the Path and the "without trace" to the attainment of nibbana. The commentaries (as Ken & Nina mentioned) refer to the rupa and arupa-jhanas. The samadhi is of that level for those who can attain them, just depending on conditions. The goal is detachment from all realities - all the Teachings are for this. 3. A discussion about how sakkaya ditthi, vicikiccha and silabbataparamasa are completely eradicated by magga citta - in that order. When sakkaya ditthi is eliminated, there is no more doubt and so on - a gradual path. When there is ditthi, there will be the "practice" of it, i.e. silabbataparamasa. Lobha wants to gain knowledge, to understand, wants to experience particular dhammas - this is not the right path. The right path is not trying hard to do anything - just understanding now! (Later, on the way to lunch with Rob K, we had a discussion about someone who may know a lot of Abhidhamma theory but think that doing nothing is "too soft". I commented that such "Abhidhamma theory" is not pariyatti when there's the idea of "doing something more" to understand.) 4. Corpse meditation? No dead body now! Understand whatever appears. Doubt is conditioned by lobha, such as when trying to work it out. If there is no understanding of reality, it's not vipassana. If one sees the body and is so scared, it's dhamma too. Anytime, any reality, can be known. Whatever the Buddha taught in the suttas or elsewhere, it's about the Truth. to be contd Metta Sarah p.s Lukas: for the last discussion notes, in the search space on the DSG home page, put in "Bangkok Sujin December" and you'll find them all. ====== #112931 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 3-jan-2011, om 23:19 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Thanks for the very clear and helpful summary of the way seeing and > > thinking work, and the way in which sati and panna come to know > > what is happening. > ------- > N: I found more material on this subject and quote: Thanks, I enjoyed reading this. > The moments with awareness and without awareness can > be known naturally. I am wondering how a moment without awareness can be known, since citta is not aware at that time. Can you explain how this takes place? ... > If there is no understanding how > could there be the distinction between visible object and seeing? How > can they appear one at a time without right understanding as foundation? How can visible object appear separately from seeing? Doesn't the object have to still be present to be seen by seeing? Isn't visible object only seen when seeing is activated? I don't see how these can be two separate moments. ... > Right understanding does not move away from any reality that appears. I like this statement very much. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112932 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(2) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, contd. 5. "Engaged Buddhism", politics and tyranny as discussed by Howard, Ken H & Nina recently (#112782, #112783). As soon as we set any rules we go wrong, such as when we have the idea that we don't need to be involved in X or we should be engaged in politics, speaking out against Y or we should vote for Z. Instead we can develop more understanding of realities, whatever our accumulations are, not imposing any "conventional" rules at all. Otherwise we just cling to things and people being a certain way, such as being a "good" person or others being good people too. Who knows what will happen next? "The most important thing is the understanding of anatta." When there's any idea of "should", there's no understanding of dhammas as anatta, no understanding that there are no rules. Kusala or akusala now? By conditions. Panna knows the right thing only. Betty mentioned that she used to get very involved in the politics in Israel and would notice how agitated she became about the situation. Now she realises the problem is the dosa at such times. KS said that was understanding. 6. Patience, see Ven Samahita's #112876 I liked: "External tolerance of other beings is forbearance and forgiveness". Any kusala - dana, adosa, metta. 7. (very techincial point - feel free to skip or ask for clarifications!) Ayatanas and Arammanas. Sometimes subtle details in the commentaries refer to both in the same para, e.g #101901 as quoted by Ken O. "But only the part of the mind base called the life-continuum (bhavanga) mind is the door of arising and only the mental data base which is not common to all is the object of the sixth consciousness grpup. So they are called "the twelve" because of their defining door cum object." All cittas must have an object (arammana) which may be a cetasika, subtle rupa or nibbana (in the case of the mind-door cittas). These dhammas may also be the dhammayatana arising with and "meeting" with other ayatanas. Without an arammana, there cannot be any ayatanas meeting together. In the case of the arammana, only one cetasika or other dhamma can be the object at a time. In the case of dhammayatana, naturally at least 7 cetasikas have to arise at a time to "meet" with the citta and experience an object. The purpose of such study is to detach from taking dhammas for "something" as atta. It is the ingredient for the moment of understanding realities, not taking them for self. This leads to less expectation. Wanting something (e.g. more awareness, samatha, knowledge) hinders the growth of panna. Also, salyayatana as given in paticcha samuppada - cannot be internal ayatanas without external ayatanas - everything included. **** To be contd. *** Metta Sarah =========== #112933 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:27 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. > > Speak to him, Robert, see what you can do. :-) Before I do you'll have to explain to me what absolute reality means, and why it is necessary for conditionality to take place. My understanding of reality is that it is shifting and constantly changing and dissolving, and that conditionality is the way in which various forces influence the continuous shiftings of what arises. I don't see anything absolute about that process of conditionality, except the process itself. If there are absolute realities in the sense of discrete static objects of any kind, that is a denial of anicca. In samsara nothing is at rest and nothing stands still. In that sense there is never an absolute object to identify. One can see a function taking place or take a snapshot and identify a characteristic, but as even Abhidhamma acknowledges, at any given point even momentary dhammas are moving and dissolving. Something that moves and dissolves cannot truthfully be identified as "this" or "that." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112934 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(3) sarahprocter... Dear Friends (esp. Kevin), contd. Rob arrived by car with the help of some good GST navigation. I haven't mentioned the lush countryside, lotus rivers and profuse bird life we pass near our destination - reminds me of the countryside in India near Savatthi and Kusinara. Rob was just in time for some samatha/anapanasati/Vism discussion and another tasty Thai lunch by the Chaopraya river, watching the barges and Thai country life go by. But I'm getting ahead of myself:-) 8. Kevin's discussion with KS and myself (#109607). Kevin had asked why the Buddha ad mentioned jhana "hundreds or thousands" of times if there was no need to talk about jhana. KS replied by asking whether among those who became enlightened, were there more who did so by just developing vipassana or those who developed vipassana and samatha (to jhana levels). The answer is by vipassana alone. KS had previously mentioned that whilst developing vipassana, there was no need for extra samatha and asked which was better - samatha or vipassana. Kevin had suggested this implied "attachment to vipassana or aversion for lower kusala" and that all kusala was good and a support for wisdom. KS said that just samatha was not understanding realities as not self, just knowing the difference between kusala and akusala. If it were more, then those before the Buddha could have attained the Path. We have to stress vipassana from the beginning. And in terms of "what's better", think of suttas such as the Anathapindika Sutta which stresses how much more valuable a moment of anicca sanna, the understanding of the impermanence of dhammas is, compared to sila, dana, metta and samatha of all kinds. 9. Kevin's comments contd (2nd page of same post). Kevin: ".. Then there can be kusala citta that wants to practice samatha...." KS: "having more kusala in a day - the way to have more samatha." What's the characteristic of sati? Anatta. There is no understanding of anattaness of sati (when there's an idea of wanting to practice samatha). Desire is lobha. 10. continuing. Anapanasati, practicing meditation, Vism description, access concentration..... KS: "What for?" Do those who develop samatha know about vitakka, vicara, piti, ekaggata and upekkha from the beginning (not the names or theory)? One knows that without vitakka about that particular object, it's impossible for there to be more kusala factors of jhana. If there is no understanding of vitakka to have that object more and more often by seeing the benefit of that object to condition kusala at that moment. Panna can condition more kusala by vitakka, touching the object. Kevin's comment about (Vism) counting the breaths and so on. KS stressed the importance of panna understanding moments of kusala and akusala. Kevin's comment questioning whether those who "practiced samatha" in the suttas only had kusala moments. KS said that it seems like life is different for those developing samatha and that it's not daily, developing gradually. It doesn't mean we can have samatha of that degree in a short time. It depends on accumulations and takes a long time, aeons, for samatha to develop to that degree. Vitakka - the foot of the world that walks on and on! (text quote anyone?) Vitakka develops to the degree of samma sankappa of the eightfold path. It's not just thinking about an object, but it touches the object with or without right understanding. How can there be touching with kusala? It's very subtle. It's panna which can understand that there are only dhammas. It is understanding that conditions kusala, not "selecting", "focussing" and so on. These are all silabbataparamasa. Can we know what is the object of thinking in a day, "rightly" or 'wrongly"? ***** To be contd. Metta Sarah ========= #112935 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(2) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > All cittas must have an object (arammana) which may be a cetasika, subtle rupa or nibbana (in the case of the mind-door cittas). When you have a chance can you say a word about what subtle rupas are and how they are objects of mind-door cittas? No rush. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112936 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- KH: >> Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. >> H: > #1 I just LOVE it (not!) when people feel free to characterize what "I am"! (I do hope you enjoy engaging in this ad hominem approach, though, Ken. :-) -------- I think I was right to characterize you as being of the view that conditioned dhammas were devoid of absolute reality. My next statement, however, was meant as a characterization *of that view* not of you personally. It is a wrong view and, as such, it overlooks the doctrine of conditionality. But I am not saying that about you personally. And I won't mention anything about a cap fitting. :-) --------------- H: > #2 I can only laugh when reading that voidness of absolute (i.e., non-relative) reality is contrary to conditionality. <. . .> P. S. Ken, did you suppose I'd run in fear at reading a "Mahayana accusation"?!! ;-)) --------------- It wasn't an accusation. It was meant to acknowledge that you weren't alone in your beliefs. Millions of Mahayanists think the same way as you on this point. So you are not some kind of lone eccentric. You are in good company, but it is not Theravada company. Ken H #112937 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(4) sarahprocter... Dear Freinds (esp Rob E), After a leisurely lunch, finished off with the "Going to Heaven" Thai desserts (that's their name!), we made our way back to the house for the discussions. Lots of animated discussion between Sukin and Rob K in the van on science, continuing Rob's discussion from before with Ken H and previous discussions in Bangkok. Also more discussions between Rob and Jon on samatha, selecting objects and so on. For those before the Buddha's time who developed samatha, did they not select wisely? I think that's Rob's issue. Perhaps he'll add more on these topics. 11. Science - "Just thinking!" A discussion about thinking wrongly (i.e with ignorance and attachment) as opposed to having wrong views. Ditthi - the moment of taking reality for self or something, such as a pen. Praying to god - micha ditthi and silabbataparamasa. 12. More on samatha and vitakka and Rob Ep's qu to KS (#112800) on anapanasati, related ways of meditating, satipatthana, habitual cultivation and so on. Also his comments on the "happy meeting somewhere between bhavana as natural development and bhavana as focused training....". KS responded by saying that all objects can be the object of right understanding. "Why select?" Even now, any object can be the object of awareness and right understanding. The comments suggest a mis-understanding of vitakka, sati, sanna, ekaggata and other dhammas. Even now, when there is the intention to develop, it is silabbataparamasa - the wrong view of thinking about people and things practising. There is developing when it's not "right". When there's an idea of selecting an object to appear, it is attachment with wrong view. 13. 5-fold and 8-fold path. Ledi Sayadaw's comments as referred to a long time ago by Han (#98367). Discussion about conventional virati (abstention), such as right livelihood. Many degrees of lying - best to understand realities as not self. Different cittas of a butcher and so on. Virati with kusala cittas even when not the path, for example at moments of abstaining from wrong speech or killing. My question was whether at moments of the sixfold path the object of the virati cetasika is the same as the object of the other 5 path factors - i.e a reality or not (as Ledi S suggests and I've often wondered about before). KS said it must be the same reality, otherwise it's not the path factor virati. There's such a great lack of panna of the savaka - we can never understand everything heard from the Buddha. 14. Finally, not forgotten -Azita's qu (#112638) on KS's comment both she and I wondered about with regard to giving no-longer need items away as suggesting a lack of respect for the recipient. Just a mis-understanding of a rather cryptic comment. She stressed that she'd only meant if one gave away something clearly totally useless "such as a mango-seed"! If we give away items which are useful to someone else (even if no longer needed by us), there can be a lot of thoughtfulness and care involved. And as we returned to Bangkok in the van, one friend, Ell, peeled, cut and shared the large apples that someone had given to K.Sujin who had passed them to her sister who, always being given far more than they could eat, had passed them on to Ell who had shared them with us. Lots of respect to the recipients all round! And as we've been fortunate to have "over-flowing Dhamma" here in Thailand, I hope I've been able to share a little of the "goodies" with those who have a taste for them! Metta Sarah p.s Azita, if you remember and can formulate your other qu, I'll raise it and any other points anyone would like raised, on Sat - our last day of seeing friends here. ============ #112938 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 5:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(2) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, Impressed that you're following the cryptic notes - esp. the most cryptic of those cryptic notes - so quickly:-) --- On Wed, 5/1/11, Robert E wrote: >S: All cittas must have an object (arammana) which may be a cetasika, subtle rupa or nibbana (in the case of the mind-door cittas). R:>When you have a chance can you say a word about what subtle rupas are and how they are objects of mind-door cittas? No rush. .... S: There are 28 rupas as you know. 12 of these rupas are referred to as gross, more apparent. These are the 7 rupas which are experienced by the sense cittas, i.e visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 tangible objects, i.e hardness/softness, temperature and motion, plus the 5 sense bases, i.e eye-base, ear-base etc. The other 16 rupas are referred to as subtle rupas. The sense bases and all the subtle rupas can only ever be experienced through the mind-door. For example, seeing consciousness sees visible object, but not eye-base. Even cohesion (water element) can only be experienced through the mind-door. When it comes to the classification of the ayatanas (being discussed in the point), eye-base and the other sense bases are all classified as inner ayatanas. For example, at a moment of seeing, there is a "meeting" of the external ayatana of visible object and the internal ayatanas of seeing and eye-base. All the subtle rupas, however, are included in dhamma-ayatana, the external ayatana which includes subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana (if applicable). At the moment of experiencing a subtle rupa through the mind-door, there is a coming together, a "meeting" of the citta (mano-ayatana), the cetasikas (dhamma-ayatana) and also the subtle rupa in question (dhamma-ayatana). If you have time, pls read more on "Ayatanas" in "Useful Posts" in the recently tidied-up files section of DSG (thanks Pt!). Also, ask any more qus and I appreciate the "No rush". As you can see "no rush" is a good way to get a quick response:-)) Metta Sarah ======== #112939 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 3:50 am Subject: Poya-Uposatha-Observance Day Calendar in 2011 bhikkhu5 Friends: Poya-Uposatha-Observance Day Calendar in 2011: _____ Month January February March April May June July August September October November December Full moon 19 17 19 17 17 15 14 13 11 11 10 10 New moon 5 3 5 3 5 2 31 29 27 27 25 24 Full Moon Poya Days: Uposatha 8 Rule Observance! January 19 Duruthu <...> http://what-buddha-said.net/various/Poya.Uposatha.Observance_days.2011.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112940 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 7:12 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Robert E, --------- <. . .> RE: > Before I do you'll have to explain to me what absolute reality means, and why it is necessary for conditionality to take place. ---------- An absolute reality is something that is absolutely real - not a mere concept. Absolute realities are necessary for conditionality to take place. Otherwise, what would arise? What would exist? What would perform functions and fall away? ------------------- RE: > My understanding of reality is that it is shifting and constantly changing and dissolving, and that conditionality is the way in which various forces influence the continuous shiftings of what arises. I don't see anything absolute about that process of conditionality, except the process itself. If there are absolute realities in the sense of discrete static objects of any kind, that is a denial of anicca. ------------------- This is another one of those discussions that you and I have already had - at length. I'm not sure if my opinions on the matter are exactly shared by anyone else here, so I won't push them. I will just say that *according to my understanding* dhammas are anicca by virtue of the fact that they bear the anicca characteristic: they are not anicca in the sense that they undergo change. ----------------- RE: > In samsara nothing is at rest and nothing stands still. In that sense there is never an absolute object to identify. One can see a function taking place or take a snapshot and identify a characteristic, but as even Abhidhamma acknowledges, at any given point even momentary dhammas are moving and dissolving. Something that moves and dissolves cannot truthfully be identified as "this" or "that." ----------------- "Moving" and "dissolving" are not terms that I would apply to dhammas. I would say they had the anicca characteristic. Ken H #112941 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind vs matter. Materialsm vs Idealism. nilovg Dear pt, Op 4-jan-2011, om 13:21 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Nina also mentioned this fact in a recent post (#112885) about the > bodhisatta never lying. I was wondering: > - what text does that detail come from? ------ Co to the Hrita Jaataka (quoted from Kh Sujin's Perfections, Ch on truthfulness): ------- > pt: - what's your understanding why not lying is so important (I > mean, to me it seems killing someone is a much worse breach of > precepts than lying)? > - also, that would include all lying? So even seemingly harmless > stuff like white lies, etc, would be included, right? ------ N: It violates the truth, and it is the truth of all dhammas the Bodhisatta is seeking and the four noble Truths he will realize at the Bodhi-tree and thus becoming an arahat and sammaa-sambuddha. ------- > > pt: On another related matter that Nina and you mentioned recently > - when speaking about the bodhisatta in the situation when children > were being mean to him - he wasn't experiencing dosa at the time, > but instead he was developing the parami of equanimity: > > I'm wondering there, what sort of citta arises for him (while the > parami of equanimity is being developed) - here's my line of > thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong: > > 1. if there's no dosa, but developing of parami, then it's a kusala > citta. ------- N: Yes. ------ > > pt: 2. if there's development of parami at the time - then it must > be a kusala citta with 3 roots of amoha, adosa and alobha. ------ N: Yes. Not every kind of kusala is a parami. It is a parami when the aim is having less defilements. -------- > > pt: 3. if there's amoha (panna) but a bodhisatta cannot experience > any of the insight knowledges prior to the last life, then that > panna can only be of the level of intellectual understanding. Is > that right? I mean, I assume a bodhisatta can never actually > experience a dhamma directly so to speak (as in satipathana), > otherwise he'd end up on the first stage of insight too soon. So > then it seems the only sort of panna left for him is the right > intellectual understanding? ------- N: There are many degrees of pa~n~naa. I would not say just intellectual understanding, because pa~n~naa does not always have to reason. It can be pa~n~naa without thinking, direct understanding, though not yet fully developed insight. But these are things I would not like to pinpoint. ------- > pt:Though, I recall Jon saying something to the effect that a > dhamma can be experienced directly (as in satipatthana), but it > would not be as consistent and clear enough as experienced on the > first stage of (tender) insight. So this would be satipatthana - > direct experience of a dhamma, but not yet any stage of insight. So > perhaps this sort of panna is also accessible to a bodhisatta? ------- N: Yes. He listened to many Buddhas and had to begin developing satipa.t.thaana, how else would pa~n~naa of satipa.t.thaana ever become fully accomplished? ------ Nina. #112942 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 5-jan-2011, om 6:18 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > The moments with awareness and without awareness can > > be known naturally. > > I am wondering how a moment without awareness can be known, since > citta is not aware at that time. Can you explain how this takes place? -------- N: Even moha can be known. This is always by another citta arising in another process, after the cittas with moha have just fallen away. The knowing of a certain citta is always by another citta. Citta cannot know itself, it has already an object when it arises. The citta with awareness is also known by another citta with understanding. This may sound theoretical, but when those different moments actually occur they can be known as being different. --------- > > R: > If there is no understanding how > > could there be the distinction between visible object and seeing? > How > > can they appear one at a time without right understanding as > foundation? > > How can visible object appear separately from seeing? Doesn't the > object have to still be present to be seen by seeing? Isn't visible > object only seen when seeing is activated? I don't see how these > can be two separate moments. -------- N: Sati may be aware at one moment of visible object, and then there is another moment of sati which may be aware of seeing. Thus, when the word appear is used it means: appear to sati. Seeing and visivle object have just fallen away when sati is aware of them, they can still be called present object. Sati can be aware of only one object at a time, not two objects. --------- > R: > Right understanding does not move away from any reality that > appears. > > I like this statement very much. ------ N: Yes, but in the pracice it is not easy at all. We may find certain situations very upsetting, such as the loss of a dear person, or like in Australia, the loss of one's house by the inundation. Then we are likely to be forgetful instead of being aware of the present reality which may be sadness. Or, some people think that they have to calm down first before they are aware of realities and they may be inclined to cultivate subjects of calm, without being aware of the citta at that moment, the citta which develops calm. There are so many reasons to delay the development of satipa.t.thaana. ------- Nina. > #112943 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/5/2011 12:42:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ----- KH: >> Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. >> H: > #1 I just LOVE it (not!) when people feel free to characterize what "I am"! (I do hope you enjoy engaging in this ad hominem approach, though, Ken. :-) -------- I think I was right to characterize you as being of the view that conditioned dhammas were devoid of absolute reality. My next statement, however, was meant as a characterization *of that view* not of you personally. ------------------------------------------------------ Oh, so you were not characterizing me as a Mahayanist? I've read you as frequently doing so in the past. Have I "improved," Ken? Become a bit more malleable? LOL! BTW, in my reading, the Buddha is foremost among those who views conditioned dhammas as void of absolute reality. For example, the Buddha has taught the following: #1 /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (Phena Sutta) #2 /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (Uraga Sutta) #3 /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (Uraga Sutta ) #4 /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (Potaliya Sutta) #5 /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (Dvayatanupassana Sutta) The foregoing make my point very strongly, I believe, and they are all the direct word of the Buddha and neither that of Theravadins nor Mahayanists. I would like to see you sometime actually set down a detailed analysis of these direct emptiness teachings of the Buddha. It would be good to do that instead of wasting time hurling unfounded accusations, readily assigning people to categories to make your thinking about them comfortable for you and to try to shore up your own beliefs such as your much clung-to belief in the "absolute reality" of conditioned dhammas. ----------------------------------------------------------- It is a wrong view and, as such, it overlooks the doctrine of conditionality. But I am not saying that about you personally. ------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry, Ken. That's nonsense. You are writing to me in response to my statements. And as for "overlooking the doctrine of conditionality," as I have pointed out before, the fact of conditionality is intimately involved with the merely relative reality of namas and rupas. ------------------------------------------------------------ And I won't mention anything about a cap fitting. :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- No need to. The implication was clear! (In the U. S., the saying is "If the shoe fits,wear it." ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- H: > #2 I can only laugh when reading that voidness of absolute (i.e., non-relative) reality is contrary to conditionality. <. . .> P. S. Ken, did you suppose I'd run in fear at reading a "Mahayana accusation"?!! ;-)) --------------- It wasn't an accusation. It was meant to acknowledge that you weren't alone in your beliefs. Millions of Mahayanists think the same way as you on this point. So you are not some kind of lone eccentric. You are in good company, but it is not Theravada company. ------------------------------------------------------------ My, my! Afraid, were you, that I'd feel lonely? LOL! Have no fear. I'm doing fine. ------------------------------------------------------------ Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard The Practice /Not reviling, neither harming, restrained to limit ‘freedom’s’ way, knowing reason in one’s food, dwelling far in solitude, and striving in the mind sublime: this is the Buddha’s Teaching./ (Dhammapada, 185) #112944 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 8:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mind vs matter. Materialsm vs Idealism. kenhowardau Hi pt (and Nina), ------ pt: - what's your understanding why not lying is so important (I > mean, to me it seems killing someone is a much worse breach of > precepts than lying)? > - also, that would include all lying? So even seemingly harmless > stuff like white lies, etc, would be included, right? ------ I think this might tie in with some other discussions DSG is having. In the ultimate sense a lie is a paramattha dhamma, not a concept. But ordinary (non-ariyan) people like us can't identify specific paramattha dhammas. We can't even know with certainty when our dhammas are kusala and when they are akusala. Therefore, we just do the best we can. If (for example) we think a white lie will protect someone's feelings we go ahead and tell it. We don't follow a ritual form of truth-telling. We judge every situation on its merits and take whichever course of action seems the best. Ken H #112945 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 5, 2011 11:51 pm Subject: Gracious is Gratitude! bhikkhu5 Friends: Gratitude appreciates all assistance! The Buddha indeed pointed out Gratitude as an important mental quality: These two people are hard to find in the world. Which two? The one who is first to do a kindness, and the one who is grateful and thankful for a kindness done. Anguttara NikÄya 2.118 I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, & were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate and urinate right there on your shoulders, you would not thereby repay your parents. Even if you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way repay your parents! Why is that? Mothers and fathers do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them for long, and they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in faith; rouses his immoral mother & father, establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his unwise mother & father, settles & establishes them on a new level of understanding: It is in this way that one truly repays one's mother's and father's many longstanding services. Anguttara NikÄya 2.32 Mother & father, compassionate to their family, are called Brahma, first teachers, those worthy of gifts from their children. So the wise should pay them homage, honour them with food & drink, clothing & bedding, and anointing, bathing, washing their feet. Performing these services to their parents, the wise are praised right here and after death rejoice in heaven. Itivuttaka 106 If this is what you think of me: The Blessed One, is sympathetic, is seeking our well-being, teaches us this Dhamma out of sympathy, then you should train yourself in being in harmony, cordial, and without conflict and train in yourselves cultivation of all the 37 best mental qualities: The 4_Foundations_of_Awareness , the 4 right efforts, the 4_Feet_of_Force, the 5 Abilities , 5 powers, the 7 Links to Awakening, & the Noble_8-Fold_Way. Majjhima NikÄya 103 A Tathagata is worshipped, honoured, respected, thanked & shown gratitude by any follower, who keeps practicing the Dhamma in accordance with true Dhamma, who keeps practicing masterfully, who lives in and by the Dhamma! Digha NikÄya 16 We will undertake & practice those qualities that makes one a contemplative, so that all those who helped us by services of robes, alms-food, lodging, and medicines will bring them great fruit and great future reward. Majjhima NikÄya 39 Comments: In Pali, the word for gratitude = kataññu literally means to have a sense of what was done for one in the past even when long ago. Remembering all help! A network of kindness and gratitude is what sustains whatever goodness there is and ever will be in this - otherwise destitute & impoverished - world! Thus: Thank you for reading this! Source (edited extract): The Lessons of Gratitude by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/lessonsofgratitude.html http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Appropriate_Appreciation.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Gracious is Gratitude! #112946 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(2) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > Impressed that you're following the cryptic notes - esp. the most cryptic of those cryptic notes - so quickly:-) Wow! Well you did reply instantly, and I was tempted to reply instantly back again -- in an attempt to imitate momentary dhammas -- but I decided to do a little research first so I wouldn't sound completely clueless, only partially clueless. :-) > --- On Wed, 5/1/11, Robert E wrote: > >S: All cittas must have an object (arammana) which may be a cetasika, subtle rupa or nibbana (in the case of the mind-door cittas). > > R:>When you have a chance can you say a word about what subtle rupas are and how they are objects of mind-door cittas? No rush. > .... > S: There are 28 rupas as you know. > > 12 of these rupas are referred to as gross, more apparent. These are the 7 rupas which are experienced by the sense cittas, i.e visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 tangible objects, i.e hardness/softness, temperature and motion, plus the 5 sense bases, i.e eye-base, ear-base etc. So, let's see if I understand this: there are gross sensory rupas and the sense-bases that correspond to them, which equals 12 gross rupas. So the gross ayatanas are considered rupas, as well as those that are sensory objects. Now when I look at the ayatanas, there are 12 of those as well - very popular number - so I don't want to get confused. As I read you, the ayatanas that are "gross" are those that correspond to the sensory objects, however, when I look at the list of ayatanas they include more than one base for some of the senses, ie, "...the eye-base, visible-data base, ear base, sound base, nose base, odour base, tongue base, flavour base, body base, and tangible-data base." Are these all gross? If so, the numbers don't seem to add up... On the other hand, I assume the remaining ayatanas, mind-base and mental-data base, are among the subtle rupas...? Can you give me the full list of subtle rupas so I can sort of compare? I'm still pretty confused about which is which, and what they consist of. If I've got it correctly at all, as I absorb some new vocabulary, there are gross ayatanas and their aramanas, and subtle ayatanas with their aramanas. Is that at all on the right track? One final thing from later in your post, which really confused me: > When it comes to the classification of the ayatanas (being discussed in the point), eye-base and the other sense bases are all classified as inner ayatanas. If the sense-bases are inner ayatanas, does that make them subtle? I think not, because before I think they were said to be the gross ayatanas, so I think there's another distinction there between inner and outer which is apart from whether they are subtle or gross...? I'll stop there for clarification before trying to tackle the rest of your very informative post...but to which I have some catching up to do... [I will be more prepared the next time I say "no rush." :-)) ] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112947 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:25 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Robert E, > > You and I have already had this discussion - at length. > > ----- > RE: > So you're saying they are not empty, ie, do not have the characteristic of sunya? I think you're having a bit of disagreement with the Buddha. Sunya and anatta go hand in hand. > ----- > > As far as I know, the term sunya (sunna) does not add anything to the meaning of anatta. It is an adjective meaning void. The Buddhist dictionary gives a quote: "Void is the world . . . because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self." > > It also says dhammas are "coreless" and that coreless means "without core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." > > Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. > > Speak to him, Robert, see what you can do. :-) Before you start calling people Mahayanists based on their assessment of dhammas as fleeting and lacking own-being, you might try reading the Vis. It's take on dhammas is decidely in the same direction as Howard's, and they use variations of sunya quite freely in that regard. You may want to walk back a step before you say that people who view dhammas this way are not Theravadin. I borrow these quotes from the Vis from Useful Posts, where it was quoted at greater length by Sarah. I came across it "by chance," while looking into ayatanas: (from Vis 15) "As to how to be seen: here all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. "On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence , and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery (being exercisable over them) since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no destination. "...it is the absolute rule that the eye-consciousness, etc, come into being with the union of the eye with visible datum, and so on. So they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested." ... "Furthermore, the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self..." Let me review some of the statements here from the Vis for your edification: "...all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall." "On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence , and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved." "...they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no destination." "...the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self..." An *empty village,* Ken. The "essences" of these dhammas are spoken of disparagingly as coming from nowhere, going nowhere, existing fleetingly, and having no standing, stature or meaning. The consciousness which perceives them is spoken of as being mechanical and dependent on conditions. The whole procedure and its working parts are said to have "no provenance." I think the Vis is even harder on these fleeting dhammas, and more disparaging of their rise and fall, than Howard is. Perhaps Buddhaghosa was a Mahayanist too? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112948 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(4) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends (esp Rob E), > > After a leisurely lunch, finished off with the "Going to Heaven" Thai desserts (that's their name!), we made our way back to the house for the discussions. ... > And as we returned to Bangkok in the van, one friend, Ell, peeled, cut and shared the large apples that someone had given to K.Sujin who had passed them to her sister who, always being given far more than they could eat, had passed them on to Ell who had shared them with us. ... > > And as we've been fortunate to have "over-flowing Dhamma" here in Thailand, I hope I've been able to share a little of the "goodies" with those who have a taste for them! Why do your meetings with K. Sujin always make me so hungry? I want one of those pleasant Thai lunches with my Dhamma, thank you very much! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112949 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 4:46 am Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(4) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > 12. More on samatha and vitakka and Rob Ep's qu to KS (#112800) on anapanasati, related ways of meditating, satipatthana, habitual cultivation and so on. Also his comments on the "happy meeting somewhere between bhavana as natural development and bhavana as focused training....". KS responded by saying that all objects can be the object of right understanding. "Why select?" Even now, any object can be the object of awareness and right understanding. I understand in principle that any object can be the object of awareness and right understanding, and this makes perfect theoretical sense. On the other hand, I think that Buddha recommended different meditation subjects for different individuals in different states of development and different temperaments, at least to some degree. There were clearly many, many monks who the Buddha approved of working with anapanasati and following the Buddha's indications on that form of meditation, many developing insight and samatha with breath as object, as well as using breath or satipatthana subjects, such as bodily awareness, vedana and more advanced satipatthana subjects, ie, objects of mental experience, to develop sati and vipassana. In the anapanasati sutta, as I have recently noticed, the opening stanzas have great significance, as the description notes that there were advanced monks, some of whom were training 10s or 100s of "beginners" and instructing them in anapanasati. So it seems that it is a special and specially effective object of bhavana, at least in the cases of many, many monks and possibly many others. My sense is that breath is a special object, and breathing meditation a special setting for satipatthana and development of insight, not only because of the presence, movement and changing rupas breath creates, but also because of the living quality of the breath and its connection to the brain and nerve pathways. In other words there is a yogic aspect to the breath that trains both awareness and energy flow, as well as affecting the entire nervous system. Anyone who works regularly with breathing either in a yogic or meditative setting feels the strong neuro-physiological effect it has on the body and mind. I know it's not the way in which things are often looked at around here - the affect of energy systems and physiological effects, but in all spiritual traditions those effects are noted and are part of spiritual development. You could think of those elements of meditation, yoga, breath as object as representing certain rupas and namas. I think they could certainly be broken down that way. But that is a lot of the meditation experience - it is very visceral and affects both body and mind in heightening awareness and purifying defilements. Following a purely intellectual path, one wil not notice those kinds of effects as easily or strongly, but the Buddha was certainly familiar with them and spoke of many different spiritual states that are moved through on the path of samatha and insight. A lot of those states took place in the development of samatha and the jhanas, and then the immaterial states on the way to nibbana. Those are precisely the states whose precursors are ignored in the "dry insight" path, and many of those effects and states come directly out of the neurophysiology of the breath and meditative attention to sensations and mental forms. I think that in the dry insight path, the more spiritual altered states and perceptions must come late in the game, and by a different route. Maybe you are more familiar with the differences in the pathways and how these things take place, but I'm sure you have experienced some of what I am talking about in your long study of yoga. When Buddha talks about pacifying bodily formations and later mental formations, and when he talks about experiencing rapture in the whole body and breath, those are not abstractions to meditators - they actually experience them. > The comments suggest a mis-understanding of vitakka, sati, sanna, ekaggata and other dhammas. Even now, when there is the intention to develop, it is silabbataparamasa - the wrong view of thinking about people and things practicing. That may be so on an intellectual level, but there is no escaping the actual experience of practice - it is something apart from the theoretical underpinnings of right intellectual understanding of awareness and perception. > There is developing when it's not "right". When there's an idea of selecting an object to appear, it is attachment with wrong view. There is also a natural "call" to do certain things that to my mind are the natural unfolding of bhavana. If one is naturally drawn, as Jon once pointed out to my great delight, to sitting under a tree and attending the breath more and more when, as he put it, the circumstances are fortuitous - or something to that effect - that is natural bhavana for that person, one's intellectual ideas regarding practice or non-practice notwithstanding. I understand the objection to forceful adhering to a meditation regiment, as one would not want to follow a means of development that was really unnatural for that person, and it is indeed possible for the sense of self-control - the desire to self-enlighten - to put one onto a wrong path based on wrong understanding. But once you have made that point and it has sunk in, someone should then be able to follow the natural "calling" that leads them to attend natural arising dhammas or to find themselves drawn to a "practice," if their accumulations are right for it, and they are drawn to it not by wrong view, but by natural right effort. I don't know how to put all that into a question that is short enough to ask K. Sujin about, but if you have any way of bringing it up, I'd love to take the next step in the conversation. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112950 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 5:05 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken H., and Sarah... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > --------- > <. . .> > RE: > Before I do you'll have to explain to me what absolute reality means, and why it is necessary for conditionality to take place. > ---------- > > An absolute reality is something that is absolutely real - not a mere concept. In that case, why not just call it a reality? All descriptions show that dhammas are in constant instantaneous appearance/disappearance and change. No one denies that these moments take place. No one is claiming a Hindu "maya" where the entire taking place of experience is a mere dream. But what is absolute about a reality that is momentary, mechanical, comes from nowhere and then dissolves? I guess the "absolute" in that term is meant to denote that there is no other breakdown of reality beyond those momentary dhammas, but it doesn't mean anything more than that. Sarah or Nina - forget who - recently introduced the term for "mere" realities, or something to that effect, and said that the dhammas were absolute but also slight - I forget the correct term. Paramatha is not meant to denote that there is something special about them. Again, why not call them "realities" and leave it at that? > Absolute realities are necessary for conditionality to take place. Otherwise, what would arise? What would exist? What would perform functions and fall away? What is needed for conditionality is indeed something to take place, and for that something to condition whatever comes next. It does not necessitate discrete objects that have an absolute identity. And it is only in commentary that this sense of dhammas is promoted and highlighted, as far as I understand. The Abhidhamma makes sense of samsara and conditionality so we can understand the process. I think in the process of doing that some got the wrong impression that these conditioning factors were meant to be seen as independent existents. I don't think that's what was meant to be understood, but I know we've had this conversation before... In any case, neither I nor Howard are claiming that the dhammas don't arise or that they don't have conditioning functions. That is all that is necessary to agree on. They don't have to be absolute or have individual integrity. That is secondary. > ------------------- > RE: > My understanding of reality is that it is shifting and constantly changing and dissolving, and that conditionality is the way in which various forces influence the continuous shiftings of what arises. > > I don't see anything absolute about that process of conditionality, except the process itself. If there are absolute realities in the sense of discrete static objects of any kind, that is a denial of anicca. > ------------------- > > This is another one of those discussions that you and I have already had - at length. I'm not sure if my opinions on the matter are exactly shared by anyone else here, so I won't push them. I will just say that *according to my understanding* dhammas are anicca by virtue of the fact that they bear the anicca characteristic: they are not anicca in the sense that they undergo change. What is the anicca characteristic apart from the fact that they change? Even the commentaries describe the way they change - it's not even controversial. It is said that dhammas have three phases of existence - arising, functioning and falling away. So where is the disagreement? Anicca is this process of coming to be, functioning and then falling away. Isn't that what all dhammas do? Isn't that the anicca characteristic? We don't have to be nonsensical when the truth is so obvious and agreeable to all. :-) You're not saying that those three phases, defined by the Abhidhamma, by sutta and by commentary, do not take place, are you? So what's the problem? > ----------------- > RE: > In samsara nothing is at rest and nothing stands still. In that sense there is never an absolute object to identify. One can see a function taking place or take a snapshot and identify a > characteristic, but as even Abhidhamma acknowledges, at any given point even momentary dhammas are moving and dissolving. Something that moves and dissolves cannot truthfully be identified as "this" or "that." > ----------------- > > "Moving" and "dissolving" are not terms that I would apply to dhammas. I would say they had the anicca characteristic. Abhidhamma and commentary both discuss the fact that dhammas arise, function and fall away, in three phases of activity. That changing activity as they come into existence and then fall away is the obvious expression of the anicca characteristic. It's not a contradiction to what you are saying at all. Let's check with K. Sujin if you have any doubt. Sarah can still ask her about it on Saturday. :-) Sarah, would that make a good question for K. Sujin? :-) Is the anicca characteristic of dhammas expressed in the three phases of a dhamma arising, functioning and then falling away? Thanks...! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #112951 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 6:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 5-jan-2011, om 6:18 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > The moments with awareness and without awareness can > > > be known naturally. > > > > I am wondering how a moment without awareness can be known, since > > citta is not aware at that time. Can you explain how this takes place? > -------- > N: Even moha can be known. This is always by another citta arising in > another process, after the cittas with moha have just fallen away. > The knowing of a certain citta is always by another citta. Citta > cannot know itself, it has already an object when it arises. > The citta with awareness is also known by another citta with > understanding. This may sound theoretical, but when those different > moments actually occur they can be known as being different. > --------- Thank you, that makes it clear. > > R: > If there is no understanding how > > > could there be the distinction between visible object and seeing? > > How > > > can they appear one at a time without right understanding as > > foundation? > > > > How can visible object appear separately from seeing? Doesn't the > > object have to still be present to be seen by seeing? Isn't visible > > object only seen when seeing is activated? I don't see how these > > can be two separate moments. > -------- > N: Sati may be aware at one moment of visible object, and then there > is another moment of sati which may be aware of seeing. Thus, when > the word appear is used it means: appear to sati. Seeing and visible > object have just fallen away when sati is aware of them, they can > still be called present object. Sati can be aware of only one object > at a time, not two objects. > --------- I am a little confused how sati can "experience" visible object separate from the moment of seeing. Through what means would the object be accessible to sati separately from seeing? I would think that sati would only become aware of the object *in* the act of seeing, at that moment. I mean, the visible object does not have a citta in contact with it until seeing takes place, does it? And wouldn't sati be a cetasika of a citta that is aware of seeing the visible object? > > R: > Right understanding does not move away from any reality that > > appears. > > > > I like this statement very much. > ------ > N: Yes, but in the practice it is not easy at all. I am sure it is not. > We may find certain > situations very upsetting, such as the loss of a dear person, or like > in Australia, the loss of one's house by the inundation. Then we are > likely to be forgetful instead of being aware of the present reality > which may be sadness. Or, some people think that they have to calm > down first before they are aware of realities and they may be > inclined to cultivate subjects of calm, without being aware of the > citta at that moment, the citta which develops calm. There are so > many reasons to delay the development of satipa.t.thaana. That is a very good discussion. I appreciate those distinctions. A friend and yoga teacher once said to me that the differenc between a yogi and an ordinary person is that we mostly spend our life running away from painful impressions and experiences, and that the yogi faces the reality of what is happening instead of running away. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112952 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 11:16 am Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(4) gazita2002 hallo Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Sarah > p.s Azita, if you remember and can formulate your other qu, I'll raise it and any other points anyone would like raised, on Sat - our last day of seeing friends here. azita: gosh, questions come to mind but I dont write them down immediately and so forget them. Thanks anyway Sarah, I will be in Bkk in about 3 weeks, so will have opportunity to ask for myself. patience, courage and good cheer azita #112953 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 11:56 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---------- <. . .> RE: > Again, why not call them "realities" and leave it at that? ---------- We call them absolute realities in order to distinguish them from concepts (things that are conventionally known). ------------------------ KH: >> Absolute realities are necessary for conditionality to take place. Otherwise, what would arise? What would exist? What would perform functions and fall away? >> RE: > What is needed for conditionality is indeed something to take place, and for that something to condition whatever comes next. It does not necessitate discrete objects that have an absolute identity. And it is only in commentary that this sense of dhammas is promoted and highlighted, as far as I understand. The Abhidhamma makes sense of samsara and conditionality so we can understand the process. I think in the process of doing that some got the wrong impression that these conditioning factors were meant to be seen as independent existents. I don't think that's what was meant to be understood, but I know we've had this conversation before... In any case, neither I nor Howard are claiming that the dhammas don't arise or that they don't have conditioning functions. That is all that is necessary to agree on. They don't have to be absolute or have individual integrity. That is secondary. --------------------- This is something neither you nor Howard have been able to explain to me. How can something exist and yet not exist? -------------- <. . .> KH: >> "Moving" and "dissolving" are not terms that I would apply to dhammas. I would say they had the anicca characteristic. >> RE: > Abhidhamma and commentary both discuss the fact that dhammas arise, function and fall away, in three phases of activity. That changing activity as they come into existence and then fall away is the obvious expression of the anicca characteristic. It's not a contradiction to what you are saying at all. Let's check with K. Sujin if you have any doubt. Sarah can still ask her about it on Saturday. :-) --------------- When have I ever denied the three sub-moments? ------------------- RE: > Sarah, would that make a good question for K. Sujin? :-) Is the anicca characteristic of dhammas expressed in the three phases of a dhamma arising, functioning and then falling away? Thanks...! ------------------- Why not ask her something we have actually been disagreeing about: "Are conditioned dhammas real in the ultimate sense of the word? Are they discrete objects that have absolute identity?" Ken H #112954 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:16 pm Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? jonoabb Hi Robert E (112809) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > That's a point of disagreement. You see the arising of volition to develop path factors as control-oriented self-view. I think it can be that, but can also alternatively be the correct and ardent intention to follow the path. Doesn't have to be self-based, but just a kusala desire to follow the Buddha's instructions to get the results he intended. > =============== J: OK, let's examine a little more closely the idea of a deliberate volition to develop the path. Intention is one of those mental factors (like viriya (effort/energy) and chanda (wish to do)) that is not inherently either kusala or akusala, right? That is to say, intention will be kusala if and when it is the intention that accompanies a moment of kusala consciousness. Examples of such kusala consciousness might be saddha (confidence in the Buddha/Dhamma) or panna (understanding), these being mental qualities that are inherently kusala. (In the texts, such moments are typically designated by reference to the particular kusala quality concerned, e.g. as instances of saddha or panna, rather than as moments of kusala intention.) So yes, volition can be kusala, but it will not be so merely because it is the volition "to develop the path". Such a wish is no less likely (for we 'ignorant worldlings') to be akusala than any other intention. And see your own comments below about actions being 'peppered with self'. > =============== He didn't just talk about Dhamma, he talked about meditation almost constantly, and practiced it as well. But you seem to want to surgically excise this large portion of the teachings. > =============== J: I'm happy to discuss any passage you care to quote dealing with what you call meditation ;-)) > =============== > There's no difference if you are arranging to "hear true Dhamma," which I would think would be a major activity. Don't you go out of your way to study, hear, discuss Dhamma as often as possible, to visit K. Sujin and have questions clarified, etc. Isn't all of this intentional activity and isn't it the core of one's life? > =============== J: Yes, there's lots of intentional activity for all of us (and for the enlightened being also), and we couldn't live without it. I've never suggested otherwise. But if one is fortunate enough to in fact hear true dhamma, the underlying reason/cause will be past (possibly long past) kamma and not any contemporaneous or immediately preceding intention to do so. > =============== > > The study of Dhamma can happen out of an appreciation of the value of learning more of what the Buddha taught. > > And what is its value? Just stark admiration of how brilliant it is? No thought of personal gain? I have strong doubt as to whether this could possibly be the case. If it has any value, it is the fact that it applies to improving one's lot. After all the purpose of the Dhamma is to "end suffering." That in itself is a personal motive, not an impersonal one. It's all self til the bitter end, I'm afraid, or at least nicely peppered with self. > =============== J: I'm not denying that, for us, intentional actions are likely to be "peppered with self" (and btw wouldn't that especially be so when it comes to actions intended to induce the development of the path?). What I'm questioning is the role of akusala moments of any kind in the development of the path. > =============== > > J: Yes, but as I see it a different assessment of the (correct) path to enlightenment means a different understanding of the teachings, and particularly an understanding of what it means for dhammas to be anicca, dukkha and anattaa. > > What's the difference? > > And even if there is a difference, that does not eliminate the lurking self-based motives for *any* wish to end suffering and follow the path. Otherwise, why do it? > =============== J: I would agree that lurking self-based motives are the great enemy of the development of the path. But there's a distinction to be made, as I see it, between (for example) taking part in discussions here and doing something that one takes to be a 'practice'. The former need not involve the idea of making awareness arise or creating the conditions for its arising, whereas the latter necessarily does. Jon #112955 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:20 pm Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! jonoabb Hi Robert E (112811) > > J: When the Buddha spoke about the contemplation of corpses (as in the Satipatthana Sutta), he was not saying that, as a matter of doctrine, such contemplation was a prerequisite for, or was conducive to, the understanding of dhammas as they truly are. > > > > Rather, he was saying that for the person skilled in that kind of contemplation, the development of awareness involved an understanding of dhammas as they truly are (just as for the person not following such a contemplation). > > It's still a corpse contemplation, a chosen object, just like so many other Buddhist meditation subjects, and it was invented by the Buddha. > =============== J: I'm not sure this is correct. Are you perhaps confusing the cemetery contemplations with the reflection on repulsiveness (parts of the body)? > =============== People weren't hanging around doing detailed corpse analysis and the Buddha happened to come by. It was recommended by him for many, most or all monks, not just some for whom it was expedient. > =============== J: As far as the Satipatthana Sutta is concerned, there's no actual recommendation and no reference to a 'practice' of any kind. The text of the sutta reads as follows: "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, he thinks of his own body thus: 'This body of mine too is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.'" This seems to be saying something like the following: "If a dead body is seen, there is the reflecting on how one's own body is of the same nature as the corpse now seen." > =============== In any case, it is not a dhamma, it is a corpse, that is the subject of meditation here. Of course it breaks down into experiential dhammas, but that's my point. The conceptual objects can be used in this way and break down with finer perception as it develops. Same with breath. > =============== J: To my understanding, dhammas are not the factors of which conventional objects (people and things) are comprised, and so it cannot be said that conceptual objects break down into dhammas. The world of dhammas is another world altogether from the world of conventional objects. > =============== > Buddha gave specific exercises for meditation and contemplation, all of which break down into individual dhammas, but the subjects themselves are chosen each for a specific purpose and are not code for dhammas in disguise. > =============== J: To my reading of the texts, the Buddha was at pains to separate the skilful contemplation of conventional objects (samatha bhavana) from the understanding of dhammas (vipassana bhavana). Regardless of the level of a disciples' skill in the former, it was the latter that was pointed to as being the path. From the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, section on body contemplation: "There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body. "Indeed the character of contemplating the collection of the major and the minor corporeal members, is like the seeing of the constituents of a cart. "The character of contemplating the collection of the hair of the head, the hair of the body and the like is comparable to the seeing of the component parts of a city; "and the character of contemplating the collection of primary and derived materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html Of the 3 kinds of contemplation mentioned in this passage, I would say it's only the third that is awareness/insight (the first 2, which talk about 'constituents' and 'component 'parts', would be bhavana, as I read it). Jon #112956 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:34 pm Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! jonoabb Hi Robert E (112814) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > Just re-dissecting the corpse meditation topic again... > =============== J: Yes, good to have some actual sutta quotes to discuss. > =============== > Segment from the Mahasatipatthana Sutta: > > [4] "Furthermore... just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain — wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice — and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' > =============== J: The commentary to this passage (from the part on Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body) has the following: "The following is the application of the simile: Like the bag with the two openings is the body made up of the four great primaries, earth, water, fire and air." The four great primaries (earth, water, fire and air) are rupas. So I see this passage as referring to awareness of dhammas. The meaning is that what we take for the body is, in terms of paramattha dhammas, nothing more than the 4 primary rupas. > =============== > "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. > =============== J: As regards the reference to contemplating the body in the body, the commentary explains that 'in the body' means 'in the corporeal group' i.e., in rupa-khandha. > =============== > [5] "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' > =============== J: This part of the sutta (on Reflection on the Modes of Materiality (Elements, Dhatu)) begins with the words: "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are, in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' The terms "solidity", "cohesion", "caloricity" and "oscillation" are translations of the Pali terms for the 4 primary rupas. Again, the sutta is referring to awareness of dhammas. > =============== > [6] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... > =============== J: The commentary to this passage gives the following: "This has been stated: By the existence of these three: life [ayu], warmth [usma], consciousness [viññanam], this body can endure to stand, to walk, and do other things; by the separation of these three however this body is indeed a thing like that corpse, is possessed of the nature of corruption, is going to become like that, will become swollen, blue and festering and cannot escape the state of being like that, cannot transcend the condition of swelling up, become blue and festering." To my reading, the terms life [ayu], warmth [usma], consciousness [viññanam], are references to dhammas. > =============== > These are very specific instructions on how to step-by-step contemplate the body as not-self and as anicca. It is not by seeing individual dhammas as not-self and as anicca. > =============== J: The 14 sections to the part on Contemplation of the Body are each an answer to the question "How does a bhikkhu live contemplating the body in the body?" Each section describes a different situation/set of circumstances, between them covering all aspects of a monk's life. (The 14 sections are the sections: - on breathing in and breathing out - on the postures/modes of deportment - on the four kinds of clear comprehension - of reflection on repulsiveness of the body - on the modes of materiality (elements, dhatu) - on the nine cemetery contemplations.) And in each case the text is referring to the awareness/understanding of dhammas rather than to awareness/ understanding of the situation. > =============== > It is in seeing specific aspects of the body as we worldlings know it - hair, phlegm and pus are not dhammas, but conceptual constructs according to dhamma theory. Yet these are the detailed objects that Buddha asks us to contemplate. > =============== As far as I know, there's no specific mention in the sutta of the monk seeing hair, phlegm and pus etc as not-self. That is a particular interpretation of the text. > =============== > When the body is seen as decomposing, Buddha explicitly says that by examining a body and seeing that one's own body is equally impermanent and subject to dissolution, that - as Buddha puts it - when the monk sees the body "decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' > > When Buddha instructs us to regard the body in this way, and that the application of this contemplation is to see that our own body has this nature and will reach this same fate in the future, he is instructing us to understand anicca as regards our own body-concept; that the body that we cling to is subject to dissolution. It is about the long arc of our fate - not about momentary dhammas. > =============== J: Are you saying that before the Buddha's enlightenment nobody had realised the inevitability of death and the dissolution of the body (the 'long arc of our fate')? I think there must be more to it than this. > =============== > I think that we get closer to dhamma theory by looking closely at the self and body concepts; rather than dismissing them as "mere concepts" > =============== J: Not sure what you mean by 'looking closely at self concepts'. This is not something that was ever spoken of by the Buddha. I don't see how a concept of self (as opposed to the thinking that has the concept as object) could be the object of panna. > =============== and being content with pariyatti about dhammas that we cannot yet see. > =============== J: If there is not first the correct intellectual basis there will never be the direct discernment of dhammas by panna. Jon #112957 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:41 pm Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! jonoabb Hi Robert E (112815) > > In each case, the 3 characteristics are ascribed to dhammas, not to conventional objects. > > Well, it really depends on how you look at the kandhas. Analyzing experiences in terms of their constituent elements is more precise than just talking about objects in a more casual way, > =============== J: To my understanding, dhammas are not the 'constituent elements' of conventional objects/experiences. So it would not be possible by analyzing objects/experiences to come to understand anything about dhammas.. > =============== > but Buddha also talks equally at ease about conventional objects and situations. Buddha emphasizes the process by which we experience things so that we can understand that, for instance, when we see a desired object, that there is contact and then vedana and then based on vedana more complex formations arise. That is an understanding of process. He shows where clinging and craving come from. But he never says that it is single dhammas that he is referring to, and that what he is analyzing does not apply to conventional objects that are the subject of clinging, craving and delusion. > =============== J: An example of the Buddha explaining that conventional objects (in this case, birth, old age and death) are to be understood in terms of dhammas would be the Buddha's statement of the first of the Four Noble Truths, which ends with the words "in short, the 5 khandhas of clinging are suffering". Jon #112958 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:45 pm Subject: Re: How can killiing or stealing not be a conventional deed? jonoabb Hi Robert E (112822) > So are we then only talking about the classification schemes throughout the suttas, or do we also include all of the other things that Buddha talked about. What then is the status of the Buddha's instructions about deeds and actions to be engaged or avoided? Do we ignore them? > =============== J: Of course we don't ignore teachings that are couched in terms of deeds and actions to be engaged in or avoided. But we understand them in terms of the teaching on dhammas, that is to say, that part of the teaching that is unique to a Buddha. > =============== > I think the point is what Buddha said the point was, that certain deeds are inherently kusala, such as meritorious actions, and others are inherently akusala, such as dice-throwing and telling lies. Of course there will be kusala and akusala mental states taking place throughout any of these activities, but that is the point - those mental states is *not* the only thing that Buddha stressed as important; deeds are in a category of their own. Since Buddha put so much importance on keeping good company and avoiding evil acts, how can we say that he did not ultimately regard those as crucial to the path? > =============== J: 'Avoiding' and evil act with akusala would be itself an evil act and hence not an avoiding at all. Jon #112959 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 1:50 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (112824) > If I help someone who is suffering and my motives are bad, sure that will spoil the "goodness" of the act for me. But isn't it still kusala that the suffering was ended in that case? I am not sure that there is not an aspect of kusala even to an akusala motive, if the act has a positive consequence. I will say that I am unsure about this. > =============== J: As I mentioned before, the terms 'kusala' and 'akusala' apply to citta and cetasikas and not to conventional 'results' of deeds. Here again is the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' for the term 'kusala': *********************************** kusala 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) It is defined in M.9 as the 10 wholesome courses of action (kammapatha). In psychological terms, 'karmically wholesome' are all those karmical volitions (kamma-cetanā) and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, which are accompanied by 2 or 3 wholesome roots (smūla), i.e. by greedlessness (alobha) and hatelessness (adosa), and in some cases also by non-delusion (amoha: wisdom, understanding). Such states of consciousness are regarded as 'karmically wholesome' as they are causes of favourable karma results and contain the seeds of a happy destiny or rebirth. From this explanation, two facts should be noted: (1) it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'; (2) the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots (s. mūla). ... Kusala belongs to a threefold division of all consciousness, as found in the Abhidhamma (Dhs.), into wholesome (kusala), unwholesome (akusala) and karmically neutral (avyākata), which is the first of the triads (tika) in the Abhidhamma schedule (mātikā). *********************************** > =============== > But even if that is not the case, we can still say that certain types of actions are inherently akusala because they increase suffering. The reason why there is prohibition against killing animals or people is not *only* because of the level of hatred that may be necessary to perform the act, but because they cause suffering to the other being involved. > =============== J: If you're referring to the precepts, I'd say the reason for these being recommended is that breaches of the precepts can condition rebirth in circumstances in which there is no opportunity to hear the Dhamma and thus no chance to develop the path leading to the ending of samsara. > =============== > I can agree with you to the extent that such involvements would ultimately cause a kusala or akusala mental state, and that ultimately that is what counts, but I will not agree that Buddha only specified mental kusala and akusala because this is clearly not the case. > =============== J: I've not said that the Buddha specified only the mental states. What I've said is that when he spoke about, for example, acts of generosity he was referring to the acts of generosity performed *with kusala mental states*, Take for example the deeds known as kamma-patha (courses of action), given as 10 akusala and 10 kusala (they are called 'courses of action' because they can condition rebirth in woeful or pleasant planes). From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' again: *********************************** kamma-patha 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasālini Tr. I, 126ff. *********************************** > =============== > > If it were the case, Buddha could have said "do not cultivate thoughts of hatred, and even if it is necessary to kill someone do so without any thought of anger or hatred to keep it pure." He didn't say anything so absurd. He said it is *not* okay to kill a living being, period, regardless of mental state, good or ill. Do you not agree? Do we not torture ourselves over killing an insect in the Buddhist community. Is it not considered to *always* be akusala and carry negative kamma? Why is this so? > =============== J: To my understanding, taking the life of another being necessarily involves some moments of akusala, and is one of the types of akusala kamma patha (i.e., can condition rebirth in a lower plane). > =============== > What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? Is this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is it okay with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in that case? > =============== J: As far as I'm aware, there's no mention in the texts of the possibility of taking life with kusala. Jon #112960 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 1/5/2011 8:25:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Robert E, > > You and I have already had this discussion - at length. > > ----- > RE: > So you're saying they are not empty, ie, do not have the characteristic of sunya? I think you're having a bit of disagreement with the Buddha. Sunya and anatta go hand in hand. > ----- > > As far as I know, the term sunya (sunna) does not add anything to the meaning of anatta. It is an adjective meaning void. The Buddhist dictionary gives a quote: "Void is the world . . . because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self." > > It also says dhammas are "coreless" and that coreless means "without core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." > > Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. > > Speak to him, Robert, see what you can do. :-) Before you start calling people Mahayanists based on their assessment of dhammas as fleeting and lacking own-being, you might try reading the Vis. It's take on dhammas is decidely in the same direction as Howard's, and they use variations of sunya quite freely in that regard. You may want to walk back a step before you say that people who view dhammas this way are not Theravadin. I borrow these quotes from the Vis from Useful Posts, where it was quoted at greater length by Sarah. I came across it "by chance," while looking i nto ayatanas: (from Vis 15) "As to how to be seen: here all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. "On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence , and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery (being exercisable over them) since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no destination. "...it is the absolute rule that the eye-consciousness, etc, come into being with the union of the eye with visible datum, and so on. So they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested." ... "Furthermore, the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self..." Let me review some of the statements here from the Vis for your edification: "...all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall." "On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence , and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved." "...they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no destination." "...the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self..." An *empty village,* Ken. The "essences" of these dhammas are spoken of disparagingly as coming from nowhere, going nowhere, existing fleetingly, and having no standing, stature or meaning. The consciousness which perceives them is spoken of as being mechanical and dependent on conditions. The whole procedure and its working parts are said to have "no provenance." I think the Vis is even harder on these fleeting dhammas, and more disparaging of their rise and fall, than Howard is. Perhaps Buddhaghosa was a Mahayanist too? Best, Robert E. ====================================== Well, Robert, I think that your case here is not *quite* as strong as you may think. Buddhaghosa *does* accept momentary essence (actual separate, self-existence of a dhamma following upon non-existence of it and followed yet again by non-existence of it). From my perspective, that is a view that is both substantialist (an actual, delineable, separate entity with own-being popping into existence) and annihilationist (a real, self-existent entity immediately annihilated). I think that to find the middle-way mode of existence that avoids both substantialism and nihilism, one needs to go directly to the words of the Buddha in the Pali suttas - as in the material I quoted to Ken and also, for example, in the Patisambhidhamagga, where emptiness is emphasized and own-being is roundly criticized. I must rush to point out, though, that the source materials of the PTSM may originate with Sariputta rather than directly with the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #112961 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken & Sarah) - In a message dated 1/6/2011 12:05:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: In any case, neither I nor Howard are claiming that the dhammas don't arise or that they don't have conditioning functions. That is all that is necessary to agree on. They don't have to be absolute or have individual integrity. That is secondary. ==================================== However, as regards conditioned dhammas, sense-door objects, I maintain that their existence as separate, delineable things is a matter of convention. The realm of sensuaity IS dreamlike according to the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) #112962 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 11:15 pm Subject: Imperturbable is Equanimity... bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Equanimity link to Awakening? Even evaluation is a characteristic of the equanimity link to awakening. (Upekkhâ-Sambojjhanga). Preventing both deficiency and excess thereby securing impartiality is the function of equanimity. Imperturbable ballance is the serene and placid manifestation of the equanimity link to awakening. Equanimity just looks on in calm, whenever new phenomena arise and cease. This stable, yet plastic patience purifies all the other advantageous mental states, which reach a completed maximum, when joined with Equanimity... Equanimity (Upekkhâ) is a moderating mental construction. Equanimity is also a mood of neither gladness, nor sadness. Equanimity is also a feeling of neither pain, nor pleasure. Equanimity is also the neutral ability to be indifferent. Equanimity is also the 4th infinitely divine dwelling. Equanimity is also a quite high form of happiness. Equanimity is also a refined mental purification. Equanimity is therefore a Link to Enlightenment... There is Equanimity both regarding live beings, and dead things. There is Equanimity both regarding all internal, and external states. There is Equanimity both regarding all past, present, and future times. There is Equanimity both regarding all mentality, and all materiality. The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (âsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by alert and rational attention develops the equanimity link to awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, and ceasing, culminating in full renouncing relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor can any fever or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] When mind is concentrated, then one can observe all closely in equanimity. The equanimity link to awakening arises right there. One develops it, & for anyone regularly meditating, equanimity gradually completes its evolution. MN118 [iii 85] <....> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112963 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 4:12 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken H, and Sarah. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Robert E, > > ---------- > <. . .> > RE: > Again, why not call them "realities" and leave it at that? > ---------- > > We call them absolute realities in order to distinguish them from concepts (things that are conventionally known). Well thanks, that's a good explanation. > ------------------------ > KH: >> Absolute realities are necessary for conditionality to take place. Otherwise, what would arise? What would exist? What would perform functions and fall away? > >> > > RE: > What is needed for conditionality is indeed something to take place, and for that something to condition whatever comes next. It does not necessitate discrete objects that have an absolute identity. And it is only in commentary that this sense of dhammas is promoted and highlighted, as far as I understand. > The Abhidhamma makes sense of samsara and conditionality so we can understand the process. I think in the process of doing that some got the wrong impression that these conditioning factors were meant to be seen as independent existents. > I don't think that's what was meant to be understood, but I know we've had this conversation before... > > In any case, neither I nor Howard are claiming that the dhammas don't arise or that they don't have conditioning functions. That is all that is necessary to agree on. They don't have to be absolute or have individual integrity. That is secondary. > --------------------- > > This is something neither you nor Howard have been able to explain to me. How can something exist and yet not exist? Nobody said they don't exist. You are reading that into what is being said based on your firm belief that something can't exist unless it can be pinned down and described as a static object. The problem is that nothing is static, and dhammas don't stand still to be photographed. They are in flux just like everything in samsara is necessarily in a process of change and transformation at every moment and at every micro-moment. Look, we all perform various functions conventionally, and yet we don't exist the way we think we do. I'm just saying that dhammas don't exist the way we think they do either, not they don't exist as real events. If you take a picture of a moving train you can say all sorts of things about them, but it is the movement that characterizes the train. You can't leave it out. Likewise, dhammas are in motion, and that motion is anicca. The idea that anicca is a static characteristic rather than a description of continuous changing nature of the dhamma is a real distortion of what anicca is. I would *really* like to get K. Sujin's word on this, because I don't think she will agree with you. > > -------------- > <. . .> > KH: >> "Moving" and "dissolving" are not terms that I would apply to dhammas. I would say they had the anicca characteristic. The three submoments is a description of that change; a description of how anicca works. Coming into being, functioning for a brief moment, and then falling away. Falling away and dissolving are the same thing to me. When something falls away it ceases to be. > RE: > Abhidhamma and commentary both discuss the fact that dhammas arise, function and fall away, in three phases of activity. That changing activity as they come into existence and then fall away is the obvious expression of the anicca characteristic. It's not a contradiction to what you are saying at all. Let's check with K. Sujin if you have any doubt. Sarah can still ask her about it on Saturday. :-) > --------------- > > When have I ever denied the three sub-moments? I'm specifically saying that the three sub-moments are the demonstration and expression of anicca. That is the change that every moment of experience undergoes - arising, doing something, and then falling away. Visible object impinges on the eye base, vitakka touches an object in order to know it, etc. They each arise, do something, and fall away. That's a description of how anicca works. > ------------------- > RE: > Sarah, would that make a good question for K. Sujin? :-) Is the anicca characteristic of dhammas expressed in the three phases of a dhamma arising, functioning and then falling away? Thanks...! > ------------------- > > Why not ask her something we have actually been disagreeing about: "Are conditioned dhammas real in the ultimate sense of the word? Are they discrete objects that have absolute identity?" Let's ask both. I still want to hear what she might say about how anicca is expressed, and I like your question too. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #112964 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 4:42 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: OK, let's examine a little more closely the idea of a deliberate volition to develop the path. > > Intention is one of those mental factors (like viriya (effort/energy) and chanda (wish to do)) that is not inherently either kusala or akusala, right? That is to say, intention will be kusala if and when it is the intention that accompanies a moment of kusala consciousness. That's very technical. I think it's just as fair to say that intention will be kusala if the intention itself is kusala. Maybe we can't say whether it is or not, but it either is or isn't. It seems like when we talk, we can't make a bridge from intention to action, only kusala cetasikas by association with kusala cittas. I keep waiting for you to declare that actions don't really exist and that's why they're not part of the path. No one actually does anything, they just either experience kusala or akusala, because existence is totally passive experiencing and there is no body and no action to be taken. Isn't that basically it? > Examples of such kusala consciousness might be saddha (confidence in the Buddha/Dhamma) or panna (understanding), these being mental qualities that are inherently kusala. Those are fine, but where's the bridge from confidence and energy to bhavana? And from there to vipassana and panna? How is the path actually followed? > (In the texts, such moments are typically designated by reference to the particular kusala quality concerned, e.g. as instances of saddha or panna, rather than as moments of kusala intention.) Yeah, I see you've got my kusala intention to follow the path and follow the Buddha's instructions boxed out of the picture - presumably because there is no practice and no action to be taken, so I should sit back and enjoy the ride rather than doing anything. > So yes, volition can be kusala, but it will not be so merely because it is the volition "to develop the path". Such a wish is no less likely (for we 'ignorant worldlings') to be akusala than any other intention. That doesn't mean it is akusala, just that it may be. So may be anything. > And see your own comments below about actions being 'peppered with self'. > > > =============== > He didn't just talk about Dhamma, he talked about meditation almost constantly, and practiced it as well. But you seem to want to surgically excise this large portion of the teachings. > > =============== > > J: I'm happy to discuss any passage you care to quote dealing with what you call meditation ;-)) What I call meditation? Like I said, you want to surgically excise a large portion of the Dhamma by saying that meditation doesn't exist. Is that really what you think? That nobody under Buddha's tutelage practiced anything and that is not part of the path? I mean it's one thing to say you prefer dry insight and think it's a more reasonable approach for people like ourselves, but to say that there is no meditation in Buddhism, despite the ubiquitous practices of anapanasati, satipatthana as meditation practice, and jhana on the part of almost everyone in the entire sutta body, is pretty incredibly extreme. When Buddha went through the jhanas forwards and backwards including the immaterial states and demonstrated that as he entered his parinibbana, do you think he was doing that just for the heck of it? He became enlightened through anapanasati in sitting meditation, and left this world in sitting meditation through the jhanas. I guess that has no meaning and should not be practiced by any Buddhists? What do you think he was demonstrating by coming and going in that way? That it was a coincidence? > > =============== > > There's no difference if you are arranging to "hear true Dhamma," which I would think would be a major activity. Don't you go out of your way to study, hear, discuss Dhamma as often as possible, to visit K. Sujin and have questions clarified, etc. Isn't all of this intentional activity and isn't it the core of one's life? > > =============== > > J: Yes, there's lots of intentional activity for all of us (and for the enlightened being also), and we couldn't live without it. I've never suggested otherwise. Then why take away one's natural predilection for meditation if it is one's natural inclination? And why worry that it is akusala if that is the case? > But if one is fortunate enough to in fact hear true dhamma, the underlying reason/cause will be past (possibly long past) kamma and not any contemporaneous or immediately preceding intention to do so. Same may be true for the desire/intention to develop jhana or sati through sitting meditation. > > =============== > > > The study of Dhamma can happen out of an appreciation of the value of learning more of what the Buddha taught. > > > > And what is its value? Just stark admiration of how brilliant it is? No thought of personal gain? I have strong doubt as to whether this could possibly be the case. If it has any value, it is the fact that it applies to improving one's lot. After all the purpose of the Dhamma is to "end suffering." That in itself is a personal motive, not an impersonal one. It's all self til the bitter end, I'm afraid, or at least nicely peppered with self. > > =============== > > J: I'm not denying that, for us, intentional actions are likely to be "peppered with self" (and btw wouldn't that especially be so when it comes to actions intended to induce the development of the path?). No, why? Desperately studying Dhamma would be just as akusala as forcefully doing meditation. No difference in my view. One takes one's chosen path and allows akusala to fall away to the extent possible. > What I'm questioning is the role of akusala moments of any kind in the development of the path. Yes, but I don't see why that sheds any light on the Buddha's relationship to meditation or its inclusion as a most important part of the path. What is akusala about *it,* if kusala and akusala come from past accumulations and apply to individual moments in *any* activity? > > =============== > > > J: Yes, but as I see it a different assessment of the (correct) path to enlightenment means a different understanding of the teachings, and particularly an understanding of what it means for dhammas to be anicca, dukkha and anattaa. > > > > What's the difference? > > > > And even if there is a difference, that does not eliminate the lurking self-based motives for *any* wish to end suffering and follow the path. Otherwise, why do it? > > =============== > > J: I would agree that lurking self-based motives are the great enemy of the development of the path. But there's a distinction to be made, as I see it, between (for example) taking part in discussions here and doing something that one takes to be a 'practice'. I take being here to be just as much a practice as meditation. And I think it's kind of absurd to say the more casual one's involvement in something like this, the more kusala it is, and the more one intends it as part of the path the more akusala it is likely to be. Buddha advocated great ardor and great effort to follow the path, not sneaking past it to make it more kusala by not intending anything. > The former need not involve the idea of making awareness arise or creating the conditions for its arising, whereas the latter necessarily does. They are both done to create conditions for awareness to arise and for path factors to develop. Nobody is on this list because they have nothing better to do, and if that is the case it's not going to make their participation more kusala. When I meditate I take what comes. I do it because I know the Buddha advocated it to develop awareness, and I don't try to dictate how or when that will take place. I am content to be on the path, and don't really have a schedule. I'm perfectly happy to read, meditate or discuss as the occasion allows, as taught by the Buddha in hundreds of suttas and in important parts of the Abhidhamma. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - #112965 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 5:05 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112811) > > > J: When the Buddha spoke about the contemplation of corpses (as in the Satipatthana Sutta), he was not saying that, as a matter of doctrine, such contemplation was a prerequisite for, or was conducive to, the understanding of dhammas as they truly are. > > > > > > Rather, he was saying that for the person skilled in that kind of contemplation, the development of awareness involved an understanding of dhammas as they truly are (just as for the person not following such a contemplation). > > > > It's still a corpse contemplation, a chosen object, just like so many other Buddhist meditation subjects, and it was invented by the Buddha. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure this is correct. Are you perhaps confusing the cemetery contemplations with the reflection on repulsiveness (parts of the body)? I don't think so. But as usual I can't find anything when I want to. Blame it on conditions, accumulations and kamma... > > =============== > People weren't hanging around doing detailed corpse analysis and the Buddha happened to come by. It was recommended by him for many, most or all monks, not just some for whom it was expedient. > > =============== > > J: As far as the Satipatthana Sutta is concerned, there's no actual recommendation and no reference to a 'practice' of any kind. The text of the sutta reads as follows: > > "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, he thinks of his own body thus: 'This body of mine too is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.'" > > This seems to be saying something like the following: "If a dead body is seen, there is the reflecting on how one's own body is of the same nature as the corpse now seen." Well I hate to say it's fruitless to have this argument over semantic tense rather than content. If you really think that everything the Buddha mentions in the style of the day, in the present tense, is just an observation and not brought up for any purpose, there's no way to debate it on the merits. Buddha said many things and his own stipulation is that he did not mention anything that was not meant to form the path out of suffering. He said "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." So I assume if he is talking about something he thinks it's worthwhile for the path, whatever semantic framework it may be in. "If X, then Y" was the form of many of the teachings. They were still teachings, they were still Dhamma, and they were given to be followed by those for whom they were helpful. > > =============== > In any case, it is not a dhamma, it is a corpse, that is the subject of meditation here. Of course it breaks down into experiential dhammas, but that's my point. The conceptual objects can be used in this way and break down with finer perception as it develops. Same with breath. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, dhammas are not the factors of which conventional objects (people and things) are comprised, and so it cannot be said that conceptual objects break down into dhammas. > > The world of dhammas is another world altogether from the world of conventional objects. Well we disagree about that as well. The Abhidhammasangaha says that the conventional concepts we deal with in the conventional world are shadows of dhammas and they reveal the dhammas in a distorted way. In that way it is a distortion of the one world, seen in shadow and without full detail, not a totally separate world. That notion makes of our world a full-blown illusion, without any connection to reality. I believe that the Buddha taught that this world is the doorway to the path. After all, when you read the Dhamma, if it were totally illusion, it would have no connection to the path. > > =============== > > Buddha gave specific exercises for meditation and contemplation, all of which break down into individual dhammas, but the subjects themselves are chosen each for a specific purpose and are not code for dhammas in disguise. > > =============== > > J: To my reading of the texts, the Buddha was at pains to separate the skilful contemplation of conventional objects (samatha bhavana) from the understanding of dhammas (vipassana bhavana). Regardless of the level of a disciples' skill in the former, it was the latter that was pointed to as being the path. Doesn't seem that way in the anapanasati sutta, or in the satipatthana sutta, where he goes back and forth between samatha and vipassana. > From the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, section on body contemplation: > > "There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body. > "Indeed the character of contemplating the collection of the major and the minor corporeal members, is like the seeing of the constituents of a cart. > "The character of contemplating the collection of the hair of the head, the hair of the body and the like is comparable to the seeing of the component parts of a city; > "and the character of contemplating the collection of primary and derived materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > > Of the 3 kinds of contemplation mentioned in this passage, I would say it's only the third that is awareness/insight (the first 2, which talk about 'constituents' and 'component 'parts', would be bhavana, as I read it). Is the sutta or the commentary advocating that only the third contemplation is correct practice? When you say bhavana about the other two, are you saying they are steppingstones to the third way of contemplating? What exactly is the status as regards the path of all the practices that you are calling bhavana, as opposed to those that give direct insight by contemplating dhammas? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #112966 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 1:24 pm Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3b sarahprocter... Hi Pt (& Rob E) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: Here's the 109704 repeated with Velthius - automatic conversion through this online tool, which is even more simple to use than the one I showed you before: > http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/convertpad.htm ... S: This looks great - even I might be able to work it! thx for re-posting the messages. Rob, you may like to take a look at this one - note how "tranquillizing of the body" refers to the calming of the mental khandhas. > 4. I think this is the related Pali excerpt: > Vsm, book 2, chapter 14: > 470. Kaayassa passambhana.m kaayapassaddhi. Cittassa passambhana.m > cittapassaddhi. Kaayoti cettha vedanaadayo tayo khandhaa. Ubhopi panetaa ekato katvaa kaayacittadarathavuupasamalakkha.naa kaayacittapassaddhiyo, kaayacittadarathanimaddanarasaa, kaayacittaana.m aparipphandanasiitibhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa, kaayacittapada.t.thaanaa. Kaayacittaana.m avuupasamakarauddhaccaadikilesapa.tipakkhabhuutaati > da.t.thabbaa. > > 5. Nanamoli translation: > XIV,144. (xvi)-(xvii) The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body. The tranquillizing of consciousness is tranquillity of consciousness. And here body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs. 40). But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the [mental] body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the [mental] body and of consciousness. Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness. ... S: thanks again for your help, Pt. Metta Sarah p.s I was considering following your example of a book-less existence when Rob M kindly offered to give us a set of the Buddhist Encyclopedia recently completed and published after years (decades of work). It's a lot larger than anticipated, so now we're travelling around Asia with a really large box of books, taking up pretty much our entire weight allowance on flights! You'll have to come over to Manly to take a look, once opened! ============= #112967 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 1:46 pm Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >S: ...kusala can arise anytime, any place at all - in a "nice yoga session", in a "deep relaxation", anytime. > >R: ...and perhaps can even be affected by "calming bodily formations..." .... S: See my last message and Pt's quote. "The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body (kaayassa passambhana.m kaayapassaddhi.)....And here the body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs 40)........They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness." ... >>S:....:I said that, actually, I had meant understanding and accepting whatever arises now - the greeds, the anxieties, all kinds of experiences, not just calm and good. I'm not sure that bit went down so well and I hadn't got close to mentioning seeing and visible object! Maybe next year! > >R: Like I said, a fellow trouble-maker! Actually I agree very much with that view - to be open to seeing whatever arises. ... S: Yes, the detachment, truthfulness and non-selection are very important. Not just seeing what we'd like to see! .... >R:Personally I get a kind of [sick?] thrill out of seeing the negative stuff that comes up, because I feel like awareness is in working order when that happens. I meant to mention here that I've been much more aware lately of how frequently "hatred" arises in the form of momentary rage or frustration in my life. I like to think of it as being "a little annoyed," but I've been getting a closer look lately and at the exact moment I can sometimes see that it is much greater than that. Somebody brushes against me and doesn't say "excuse me" and internally I get momentarily enraged. On the outside I behave perfectly nicely, although I might occasionally make a comment under my breath, but internally it feels explosive for that moment. .... S: A good example of how we never know what will arise next, depending on conditions only. Also, a good example of how we have no idea of our own cittas most the time, even less so about the others. As you say, you may be behaving "perfectly nicely" whilst momentarily enraged! It's good that there is the restraint from speaking out harshly at such a time. ... >Seeing that, my reaction is to get excited about it: "Wow! It's one of the three poisons and I saw it up close!" I want to get my camera or something and photograph it. In any case, it is a very different perspective than trying to hide or rationalize those reactions when they come up, as awareness gets more comfortable seeing all the things that arise and not taking it personally. I've also become aware that I'm really anxious - sometimes *very* anxious about normal situations - a much greater percentage of the time than I used to acknowledge. Isn't awareness fun? ;-) .... S: I can relate to all your examples. As I said to Han, we all have anxiety/worry lists and forget that it's really only the present understanding and awareness that is important. Of course, we're always thinking in terms of situations and people as being the problem, but really it's always the lobha, dosa and moha. Often there's a real lack of patience and understanding of others. That's why I appreciate the reminder about the aspect of patience as being forbearance and forgiveness as others. .... > Yes, the longer I live the more opportunities I'll have to experience the difficulties and breed more mindfulness. It's a win-win situation. ... S: Yes, living for opportunities for mindfulness and wisdom to grow! ... > Thank you very much; the same to you and Jon, and have fun in your travels, and with K. Sujin. A very happy - and mindful - 2011 to you! ... S: Very kind as always! Metta Sarah ======= #112969 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha and Ayurvedic Medicine sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > Kevin: ....The difference with panna is that panna is completely curative. It is, > in fact, not only the cure for craving, but the cure of having any contact at > all. The holy life is not lived for just the removal of the fetters. It is > lived for final ending. Even the Arahant knows that contact is undesirable, > though he is not attached nor averse to it. > > > Those are just my thoughts. > > I hope all is well with you. .... S: Thanks, Kevin. Good thoughts and all is as well as it ever is in Samsara! Yes, the arahant has fully understood the 4NT and done what needs to be done. Unless there is the direct understanding of the arising and falling away or seeing, visible object and other realities now, there cannot be a true understanding of the characteristic of dukkha. Metta Sarah ======= #112970 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 2:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, #112889 (I'd like to also correct a couple of my comments at the same time as replying): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > S: As you know, four causes of rupas are given: citta, kamma, ahara > (nutriment) and temperature. > > What we refer to as "the itch on the hand" are various rupas > (temperature/motion/temperature) experienced by body consciousness, accompanied by > unpleasant feeling. The body consciousness is vipaka. The rupas experienced at > such a time may, in this case, be conditioned by any of the causes given > above, I'd think. The deed of the scratching of the itch would refer to > various rupas conditioned by citta, including kaya vinnati (bodily intimation). > Many rupas, esp. vayo (wind/motion) are involved. ... (S: Oops, not kaya vinnati - no attempt to convey a meaning.) ... > ---------------------------------------------- >H: The itching is not a deed, but the scratching is. Is not he scratching > volition-induced (in part) and also involving motion? > ------------------------------------------- S: Yes, as I said: "The deed of the scratching of the itch would refer to various rupas conditioned by citta". By "citta", I mean citta and associated mental factors, including cetana, of course. Cetana arises with every citta and here it is referring specifically to the cetana arising with citta in the javana processes, conditioning rupas and as I said "esp. vayo". This is motion. ... > S: The smelling is vipaka and, as you say, "the opening of the door" again > refers to various rupas conditioned by cittas, in this case cittas > accompanied by attachment. These cittas are conditioning the intimation rupas and > other associated rupas to perform "the deed". ... (S: Another oops and another reference to "intimation rupas". I don't believe that was correct unless there was, for example, a conscious intention to show the "opening of the door" to someone or unless one was doing it in a deliberate way.) > --------------------------------------------- >H: The smelling is involuntary and not a deed, but the opening of the > door is voluntary and involves movement, and it is a deed. > ------------------------------------------- S: As I said, the smelling of the baking bread is vipaka, and as I said, the 'opening of the door', the deed, refers to rupas conditioned by cittas. Again the cetana (intention) in the mind-door processes is significant and yes, movement/motion plays is very much involved, supported by the other rupas. .... > S: In the case of the groan, still rupas conditioned by cittas, but if > involuntary, no speech intimation involved. In the second case, there is the > "conveying of a meaning", so bodily intimation involved along with all the > other rupas. In the second case, no sound rupa conditioned by citta however. > ------------------------------------------- (S: Here I got it right, no disagreement with my use of 'bodily intimation'!) ... >H: The calling and the pressing of a button each are voluntary and each > involve movement, and these are deeds.But an involuntary groan, though > involving movement, is not a deed. > ---------------------------------------- S: As I said, still rupas conditioned by cittas and other causes, such as kamma and temperature perhaps, but probably no attempt to 'convey a meaning' as I understand your example, no intention to act or speak, no kamma patha involved. We may be using different words, but I don't think we have any disagreement on any of this. ... > ... > > I also wonder whether a bodily deed must not always involve > movement. > > Can you think of examples of physical deeds that do not involve > movement? > ... > S: Probably by your definition there must always be movement. > ------------------------------------------- >H: My definition aside, the question is whether there are ready example > so involuntary actions that are considered deeds. Likewise, are there ready > examples of deeds not involving motion? > -------------------------------------- S: I think that what you refer to as 'involuntary actions' are not deeds in a Buddhist sense, because these always refer to speech or bodily activities conditioned by cittas with intention to act in such a way, i.e kamma. However, a lot of what we'd call "involuntary actions", such as groaning in pain or calling out in our sleep, still involve cittas accompanied by cetana, conditioning speech and action. They are still deeds in a Buddhist sense, kamma, but not of the degree of kamma-patha (a full course of action). ... > >S: However, the cittas can be just as strong if not stronger when there is no > movement. For example, if someone is unable to move their body or if > someone is responsible for a physical deed, such as killing, but gives an > instruction to another person to do the act. > ---------------------------------------- >H: Giving an instruction by speech or writing is volitional, and it > involves movement - and it is certainly a deed. Is this not the case for all > physical deeds? I am unaware of examples to the contrary. > -------------------------------------- S: True. There might be an example of someone being responsible for a deed by silence. In this case, it is said to be by mind, not body or speech. ... > H: Physical deeds are certainly collections of rupas, but many > collections of rupas are not deeds. So, more needs to be said if one is looking to > become clear about what one is referring to when speaking of "deeds". > ------------------------------------------ S: I understand deeds to be referring to collections of rupas conditioned by cittas (and associated cetasikas, such as cetana) in particular. Motion (vayo dhatu) is an ingredient of each collection (kalapa) of rupas. When we talk about the collections of rupas which make up the body (conditioned by kamma) or the rupas that make up a tree (conditioned by temperature), for example, we don't refer to "deeds". Thanks for the interesting discussion. Metta Sarah p.s Sometimes when you and Ken H are chatting, I get confused about who is speaking. If one of you, at least, were to provide an H or a K, it would be easier to follow. ======== #112971 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 6-jan-2011, om 7:01 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > I am a little confused how sati can "experience" visible object > separate from the moment of seeing. Through what means would the > object be accessible to sati separately from seeing? I would think > that sati would only become aware of the object *in* the act of > seeing, at that moment. I mean, the visible object does not have a > citta in contact with it until seeing takes place, does it? And > wouldn't sati be a cetasika of a citta that is aware of seeing the > visible object? > > > ---------- N: I understand your question. You wonder how visible object could be separated from seeing. Whenever there is seeing visible object appears, and if there were no seeing it could not appear. They are both present, the naama and the ruupa, but only one of them can be object of awareness, only one at a time, so that pa~n~naa can investigate their true nature. Each citta and thus also the cetasika sati arising together with it, cannot know more than one object at a time. The visible object should be known as a ruupa, an element that does not know anything. It can be known through the eye-door which is also a ruupa that does not know anything. Visible object is different from seeing, which is naama. Seeing cognizes visible object. Naama and ruupa have characteristics that are altogether different. If these are not known one at a time there is no way to become detached from the wrong view of self. There will always be the idea of I see or my visible object. Or wrong ideas about what visible object is: not a thing or person, but just the ruupa that is visible. It is important to understand what the first stage of tender insight is and why it is the first stage: the clear distinction between the characteristic of naama from the characteristic of ruupa, throrugh the mind-door. This beginning understanding is essential, so that later on naama and ruupa, one at a time, and only one at a time, can be understood as impermament, dukkha, anattaa. Do insist with your questions, I think they are very important. ------- Nina. #112972 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - In a message dated 1/7/2011 9:37:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, #112889 (I'd like to also correct a couple of my comments at the same time as replying): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > S: As you know, four causes of rupas are given: citta, kamma, ahara > (nutriment) and temperature. > > What we refer to as "the itch on the hand" are various rupas > (temperature/motion/temperature) experienced by body consciousness, accompanied by > unpleasant feeling. The body consciousness is vipaka. The rupas experienced at > such a time may, in this case, be conditioned by any of the causes given > above, I'd think. The deed of the scratching of the itch would refer to > various rupas conditioned by citta, including kaya vinnati (bodily intimation). > Many rupas, esp. vayo (wind/motion) are involved. ... (S: Oops, not kaya vinnati - no attempt to convey a meaning.) ... > ---------------------------------------------- >H: The itching is not a deed, but the scratching is. Is not he scratching > volition-induced (in part) and also involving motion? > ------------------------------------------- S: Yes, as I said: "The deed of the scratching of the itch would refer to various rupas conditioned by citta". By "citta", I mean citta and associated mental factors, including cetana, of course. Cetana arises with every citta and here it is referring specifically to the cetana arising with citta in the javana processes, conditioning rupas and as I said "esp. vayo". This is motion. ... > S: The smelling is vipaka and, as you say, "the opening of the door" again > refers to various rupas conditioned by cittas, in this case cittas > accompanied by attachment. These cittas are conditioning the intimation rupas and > other associated rupas to perform "the deed". ... (S: Another oops and another reference to "intimation rupas". I don't believe that was correct unless there was, for example, a conscious intention to show the "opening of the door" to someone or unless one was doing it in a deliberate way.) > --------------------------------------------- >H: The smelling is involuntary and not a deed, but the opening of the > door is voluntary and involves movement, and it is a deed. > ------------------------------------------- S: As I said, the smelling of the baking bread is vipaka, and as I said, the 'opening of the door', the deed, refers to rupas conditioned by cittas. Again the cetana (intention) in the mind-door processes is significant and yes, movement/motion plays is very much involved, supported by the other rupas. .... > S: In the case of the groan, still rupas conditioned by cittas, but if > involuntary, no speech intimation involved. In the second case, there is the > "conveying of a meaning", so bodily intimation involved along with all the > other rupas. In the second case, no sound rupa conditioned by citta however. > ------------------------------------------- (S: Here I got it right, no disagreement with my use of 'bodily intimation'!) ... >H: The calling and the pressing of a button each are voluntary and each > involve movement, and these are deeds.But an involuntary groan, though > involving movement, is not a deed. > ---------------------------------------- S: As I said, still rupas conditioned by cittas and other causes, such as kamma and temperature perhaps, but probably no attempt to 'convey a meaning' as I understand your example, no intention to act or speak, no kamma patha involved. We may be using different words, but I don't think we have any disagreement on any of this. ------------------------------------------------------- I agree! I think that on this topic we are 99% if not 100% in accord (including the following material). ------------------------------------------------------- ... > ... > > I also wonder whether a bodily deed must not always involve > movement. > > Can you think of examples of physical deeds that do not involve > movement? > ... > S: Probably by your definition there must always be movement. > ------------------------------------------- >H: My definition aside, the question is whether there are ready example > so involuntary actions that are considered deeds. Likewise, are there ready > examples of deeds not involving motion? > -------------------------------------- S: I think that what you refer to as 'involuntary actions' are not deeds in a Buddhist sense, because these always refer to speech or bodily activities conditioned by cittas with intention to act in such a way, i.e kamma. However, a lot of what we'd call "involuntary actions", such as groaning in pain or calling out in our sleep, still involve cittas accompanied by cetana, conditioning speech and action. They are still deeds in a Buddhist sense, kamma, but not of the degree of kamma-patha (a full course of action). ... > >S: However, the cittas can be just as strong if not stronger when there is no > movement. For example, if someone is unable to move their body or if > someone is responsible for a physical deed, such as killing, but gives an > instruction to another person to do the act. > ---------------------------------------- >H: Giving an instruction by speech or writing is volitional, and it > involves movement - and it is certainly a deed. Is this not the case for all > physical deeds? I am unaware of examples to the contrary. > -------------------------------------- S: True. There might be an example of someone being responsible for a deed by silence. In this case, it is said to be by mind, not body or speech. ----------------------------------------------------- Yes, for sure. Though if one also subtly but literally holds one's tongue (involving muscle movement of the tongue etc) in order to avoid speaking, there is physical deed as well. ------------------------------------------------------ ... > H: Physical deeds are certainly collections of rupas, but many > collections of rupas are not deeds. So, more needs to be said if one is looking to > become clear about what one is referring to when speaking of "deeds". > ------------------------------------------ S: I understand deeds to be referring to collections of rupas conditioned by cittas (and associated cetasikas, such as cetana) in particular. Motion (vayo dhatu) is an ingredient of each collection (kalapa) of rupas. When we talk about the collections of rupas which make up the body (conditioned by kamma) or the rupas that make up a tree (conditioned by temperature), for example, we don't refer to "deeds". Thanks for the interesting discussion. -------------------------------------------------------- Thank you. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah p.s Sometimes when you and Ken H are chatting, I get confused about who is speaking. If one of you, at least, were to provide an H or a K, it would be easier to follow. --------------------------------------------------------- I'll try to make it clear. (Though as I think of it, isn't it OBVIOUS who is saying what???? LOLOL!) ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #112973 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 12:01 am Subject: Mental Purity! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Three Kinds of Mental Purity! The Blessed Buddha once said: How, Cunda , is purity of mental action threefold? 1: Herein, someone is all without jealousy, acquisitiveness, and greedy envy. Whatever another person possesses of goods and property, he does not long or yearn for it lime this: "Oh may I get what that other person has!" 2: He is free from ill-will since he harbours no angry thoughts in his mind! Rather he thinks: Oh, may these beings be free from all hate and ill-will, and may they lead a happy and easy life free from all trouble and harm! 3: He possesses right understanding and this unshakable right view: Gifts, donations, and offerings are not worthless. There is a fruit & kammic result of all advantageous and disadvantageous actions! There is this world, and there is the next world. There are duties towards father and mother. There are spontaneously reborn beings. There are in this world recluses and monks of right, pure and perfect living, who have themselves understood and directly realized both this very world and the next, and are able to explain them both....This is the threefold mental purity, Cunda ! <....> Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikâya AN 10:176 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112974 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. nilovg Hi Howard, I followed all your text quotes. I would like to add a few things. Op 5-jan-2011, om 16:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > #5 /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for > what is > not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' > Whatever > they > imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of > a false > nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble > Ones > know > as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely > stilled and realize final deliverance./ (Dvayatanupassana Sutta) -------- N: This text deals with the difference between conditioned dhammas and the unconditioned dhamma. I understand your interpretation when you read false and unreal in contrast with nibbaana which is not false, but true. : (transl by Norman). The world takes for self what is non-self. I do not read here that naama and ruupa are not real, but compared to nibbaana they are insignificant. ------- > H: Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a > mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this > has been > taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, > appropriately > examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ > (Phena Sutta) > > #2 /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of > being, > like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — > such a > seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds > its worn-out > skin./ (Uraga Sutta) ------ N: This is all clear, naama and ruupa have no core, and they are impermanent. -------- > > H: #3 /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the > world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and > the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (Uraga Sutta ) ------ N: Norman transl: vs 9: He has eradicated defilements, and he has no wrong view about the world. We may believe that this world exists, but this is not so. ---------- > H: #4 /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, > delightful forests, .... 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality > to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' > Seeing this > with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the > equanimity > coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the > equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where > sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without > trace./ (Potaliya Sutta) ------ N: Here are the dreams Sarah referred to. In our dreams we construct events, people as if they really exist. They seem so real. In fact there are only fleeting naamas and ruupas that do not stay. Seeing arises and is only present as a flash and then gone. But it is real. Anger is only present as a flash, but it is real. Naamas and ruupas have each their specific characteristic (sabhaava). Now we come again to this much discussed subject. The Path of Discrimination translates: individual essence and sure, this may create confusion. Bhaava is just nature or characteristic, not essence. I know the footnote on p. 362. The Path of Discriminationstates: void of sabhaava, and the footnote explains that here it means arising of itself (saya.m bhaavo), without conditions. And this is rightly rejected. Not the fact that each dhamma has its specific nature or characteristic. If there were no conditioned dhammas to be investigated, clinging could not be eradicated, the Path could not be developed. We cling to naama and ruupa, but we should know them thoroughly in order to cling less. ----- Nina. > > #112975 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sabhaava, was The clansman... nilovg Dear Rob E, I kept this quote, and I believe this was a point of discussion? I can add something to it. Op 6-jan-2011, om 2:25 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no > destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their > rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall." > > "On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence > , and after their fall their individual essences are > completely dissolved." ------ N: Realities arise because of conditions, and before that they were not there. Then they fall away completely. Sabhaava, see my post to Howard. The Visuddhimagga also explains that there is no store or stock from where dhammas come, nor are they kept somewhere after they fall away. The Visuddhimagga (XX, 96) explains about the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa: -------- Nina. #112976 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/8/2011 10:16:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Here are the dreams Sarah referred to. In our dreams we construct events, people as if they really exist. They seem so real. In fact there are only fleeting naamas and ruupas that do not stay. Seeing arises and is only present as a flash and then gone. But it is real. Anger is only present as a flash, but it is real. Naamas and ruupas have each their specific characteristic (sabhaava). Now we come again to this much discussed subject. The Path of Discrimination translates: individual essence and sure, this may create confusion. Bhaava is just nature or characteristic, not essence. I know the footnote on p. 362. The Path of Discriminationstates: void of sabhaava, and the footnote explains that here it means arising of itself (saya.m bhaavo), without conditions. And this is rightly rejected. Not the fact that each dhamma has its specific nature or characteristic. If there were no conditioned dhammas to be investigated, clinging could not be eradicated, the Path could not be developed. We cling to naama and ruupa, but we should know them thoroughly in order to cling less. ============================= They exist as delineable things only as a matter of convention, and they are to be investigated in order to be seen through as such - merely conventions without separate being, without reality. They are not just to be seen but to be seen *through*. They are, as the Buddha teaches, like dream sensations rather than realities. Even consciousness itself is like a magic trick, and perception like a mirage. All namas and rupas are, as the Buddha teaches, when seen correctly, empty/void - unreal, in fact. Certainly there is variation in experience, but delineable things are non-existent except as matters of convention. It is useful to us to conceive of the experiential flow as fragmented into a sequence of separate, delineable things, but it is no more than that - a useful conceiving. An analogy: We speak of waves in the ocean. There are such, but no one can say in truth where a wave ends or begins. There is no separation. Our speaking of them as separate things is merely a conceptual and verbal convenience. The same is true with the elementary components of experience: sights, sounds, tastes, smells,bodily sensations and so on. Ends and beginnings are dreams. As for anger, many instances of mental states are similar and identified (labeled) as "anger," but it is a convention to do so. They differ from each other in intensity and in quality. Moreover, an instance of what we call "anger" rises, peaks, and falls as an emotional wave and without precise beginning or ending. It is much like an ocean wave, conventionally thought of as a definite and discrete thing, but not so in reality. All that we think of as real is other than that. Only nibbana is real. With metta, Howard /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #112977 From: han tun Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 12:40 am Subject: Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 hantun1 Dear Nina, The following is the excerpts from Abhisamayakathaa of Pa.tisambhidaamagga. The English translation was by Ven ~Naanamoli which I got from Tep. Perhaps, it may be useful when you present this topic with reference to Abhisamayakathaa. -------------------- 11. When this noble one abandons defilements, then he abandons past defilements, abandons future defilements, abandons presently-arisen defilements? 11. Yvaaya.m kilese pajahati, atiite kilese pajahati, anaagate kilese pajahati, paccuppanne kilese pajahati? ---------- [Suppose that] he abandons past defilements. If he abandons past defilements, he destroyed what has already been destroyed, causes to cease what has already ceased, causes to vanish what has already vanished, causes to subside what has already subsided. What is past, which is non-existent, that he abandons? He does not abandon past defilements. Atiite kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci atiite kilese pajahati, tena hi khii.na.m khepeti, niruddha.m nirodheti, vigata.m vigameti, attha"ngata.m attha"ngameti, atiita.m ya.m na atthi ta.m pajahatiiti? Na atiite kilese pajahatiiti. ---------- [Suppose that] he abandons future defilements. If he abandons future defilements, he abandons what has not been born, he abandons what has not been generated, he abandons what has not been arisen, he abandons what has not become manifest. What is future, which is non-existent, that he abandons? He does not abandon future defilements. Anaagate kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci anaagate kilese pajahati, tena hi ajaata.m pajahati, anibbatta.m pajahati, anuppanna.m pajahati, apaatubhuuta.m pajahati, anaagata.m ya.m na atthi ta.m pajahatiiti? Na anaagate kilese pajahatiiti. ---------- [Suppose that] he abandons presently-arisen defilements If he abandons presently-arisen defilements, then though inflamed with greed, he abandons greed, though corrupted by hate, he abandons hate, though deluded, he abandons delusion, though shackled, he abandons conceit, though misapprehending, he abandons wrong view, though distracted, he abandons agitation, though undecided, he abandons uncertainty, though having inveterate habits, he abandons underlying-tendency, dark and bright ideas (dhammas) occur coupled together, and there is development of a path that has defilement. Paccuppanne kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci paccuppanne kilese pajahati, tena hi ratto raaga.m pajahati, du.t.tho dosa.m pajahati, muu.lho moha.m pajahati, vinibaddho maana.m pajahati, paraama.t.tho di.t.thi.m pajahati, vikkhepagato uddhacca.m pajahati, ani.t.tha"ngato vicikiccha.m pajahati, thaamagato anusaya.m pajahati, ka.nhasukkadhammaa yuganaddhaa samameva vattanti, sa.mkilesikaa maggabhaavanaa hoti. ---------- He does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future defilements and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements. If he does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future defilements, and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements, then there is no development of the path, there is no realization of its fruition, there is no convergence of ideas? That is not so. There is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is convergence of ideas! In what way? Na hi atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate kilese pajahati, na paccuppanne kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci na atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate [pe] na paccuppanne kilese pajahati, tena hi natthi maggabhaavanaa, natthi phalasacchikiriyaa, natthi kilesappahaana.m, natthi dhammaabhisamayoti? Atthi maggabhaavanaa, atthi phalasacchikiriyaa, atthi kilesappahaana.m, atthi dhammaabhisamayo. Yathaa katha.m viya? ==================== 12. Suppose there were a young tree with unborn fruit, and a man cut its root, then the unborn fruit of the tree remain unborn and do not come to be born, they remain ungenerated and do not come to be generated, they remain unarisen and do not come to be arisen, they remain unmanifest and do not come to be manifested. So too, arising is a cause, arising is a condition, for the generation of defilements. 12. Seyyathaapi taru.no rukkho ajaataphalo. Tamena.m puriso muula.m chindeyya. Ye tassa rukkhassa ajaataphalaa, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Evameva.m uppaado hetu, uppaado paccayo kilesaana.m nibbattiyaati. ---------- Seeing danger in arising, cognizance enters into non-arising. With cognizance's entering into non-arising the defilements that would be generated with arising as their condition remain unborn and do not come to be born, ... remain unmanifested and do not come to be manifested. So with the cessation of the cause there is the cessation of suffering. Occurrence is a cause ... the sign is a cause ... Uppaade aadiinava.m disvaa anuppaade citta.m pakkhandati. Anuppaade cittassa pakkhandattaa ye uppaadapaccayaa kilesaa nibbatteyyu.m, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Eva.m hetunirodhaa dukkhanirodho. Pavatta.m hetu nimitta.m hetu ---------- Accumulation is a cause, accumulation is a condition, for the generation of defilements. Seeing danger in accumulation, cognizance enters into non-accumulation. With cognizance's entering into non-accumulation the defilements that would be generated with accumulation as their condition remain unborn and do not come to be born, ... remain unmanifested and do not come to be manifested. So with the cessation of the cause there is the cessation of suffering. Thus there is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is convergence of ideas (dhammas). Aayuuhanaa hetu. aayuuhanaa paccayo kilesaana.m nibbattiyaati. Aayuuhane aadiinava.m disvaa anaayuuhane citta.m pakkhandati. Anaayuuhane cittassa pakkhandattaa, ye aayuuhanapaccayaa kilesaa nibbatteyyu.m, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Eva.m hetunirodhaa dukkhanirodho. Eva.m atthi maggabhaavanaa, atthi phalasacchikiriyaa, atthi kilesappahaana.m, atthi dhammaabhisamayoti. -------------------- Respectfully, Han #112978 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(5) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The small room at the Foundation, where the English discussions are held, was crowded again. We arrived early and I checked a reference for Nina on "living for understanding" as often used by K.Sujin and then had a preliminary discussion with Alan (ex Ven Pannabahulo) before the main discussion with K.Sujin. 1. Vibhuuta vihaari - what is clear, living for, i.e living for panna to understand what appears (clearly). Nina, see the Thai Maha Nidesa, Sariputta Nidesa, p.664 (at bottom left of page). On the sleeve it gives S/2 664, I believe. I'd be interested to see your translation of the paragraph sometime. 2. Alan's questions: a)- ordaining KS:What is the purpose of becoming a monk? A: Study. KS: No need to be a monk for this. Study is wisdom, the benefit of what has been heard - the study of any reality arising. Why is it important to know the motives? - If it is just wishing for something, such as better sila or more study, and ordains for reasons that cannot be fulfilled, there's likely to be strong akusala. Serious akusala patha if Vianaya Rules are not followed. Alan's comment from Qus of King Milinda comment (see #112845) about various motives for ordaining, such as for requisites and Nagasena's comment about his motives and becoming an arahat. (Maybe Alan can give the textual quote.) The citta now! b)- mental illness - clinical depresseion, bi-polar, problems faced etc (see #112845 again) Alan mentioned that seeing these as "just kilesa", inherent defilements, makes it seem that nothing can be done until we attain nibbana. He mentioned that apart from the Dalai Lama, many other teachers have a "nil" understanding of western psychology and mental problems. He thinks that understanding kilesa is not a solution when they are "out of control" and the problems are not dealt with in the Teachings. (He doesn't see any conflict with medication etc.) Our chat before the main session as summarised and simplified - S: Is there depression now? A: No. S: Is there happiness now? A: Yes. S: Does it last? A: No. S: Does it belong to anyone or is it just a dhamma? A:Just a dhamma. S: Same for unhappiness, seeing, visible object - all dhammas. Not my happiness, sadness or thinking that we're used to finding so important. Alan agreed about all the "self-identification", taking for self, self-pity, and so on. S: The problem is the ignorance and wrong view. Later raised with KS. KS: The hindrance is ignorance. What appears now? Come back to understanding. Visible object. Study, begin to understand realities, one at a time. Seeing is not "I". Thinking is not "I". This is study now. c) - Sappaya (suitability). Without right understanding, nothing, nowhere can be suitable. d) - metta and oneself discussed last time. Alan raised the oft-quoted 4 hostages and Jon read out the Vism text on this. KS: Can we know about metta right now from the story? If we don't know what metta is, how can there be more metta? e) - samvegga - many definitions read out by Alan & Betty with interpretations by various teachers about spiritual anguish and so on. KS: Is it kusala? It's Kusala with right understanding - seeing the danger of life, birth and death. f) - Alan read out B.Bodh's comments from the introduction to "Abhidhamma Studies" by Nyanaponika. A long quote was given. KS: This moment, what can understanding know? If there is no understanding, can there be practising or meditating? There has to be enough understanding to condition right awareness. ***** Perhaps Alan will fill in with his own impressions, quotes used and comments. to be contd. Metta Sarah ====== #112979 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(6) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, contd. 3. 3rd meaning of satipatthana - the way as followed by ariyans and the Buddha. Same as the path of satipatthana, the 2nd meaning. When it's the right way, there is less disturbance in our life, no disturbance when panna arises, but afterwards, there may be disturbance again. As long as there is disturbance, it shows there's not enough panna. 4. Listening & study accumulating as sankhara khandha (I was quoting something KS had said before) - this refers to all sobhana cetasikas other than sanna and vedana. Now, they're all working! 5. Ann's questions on ditthi-anusaya, vitakka, thinking after seeing, past sanna and pariyatti. The other day, why had KS started by talking about the first moment of life in this connection? KS started talking again about how the first moment of life is the result, patisandhi citta, dependent on past kamma - no choice at all. By anantara paccaya, cittas and cetasikas continue to arise after the firstcitta has fallen away instantly, conditioned by the same kamma. Just having bhavanga cittas is useless, so kamma must produce eyes, ears etc so that kamma can experience pleasant and unpleasant objects. No choice. And so the cittas continue, day to day, time to time, until the last moment, on and on. Thinking, sanna, accumulating, thinking with lobha about different objects even now, by accumulations. After Seeing, vitakka at each moment. Past ditthi conditions lobha and ditthi because the anusaya has not been eradicated. Pariyatti - contemplating wisely which leads to understanding. 6. Discussion the other day about Abhidhamma knowledge and Pali expertise if still an idea of selection, vipassana or samatha better in the temple, any pariyatti? KS: Pariyatti is not a word, but the realities right now. If there is no understanding, nothing is beneficial at this moment. Understanding of the reality learned from the book. Following the book without understanding is not enough. What is experienced now? Is seeing anatta now? to be contd Metta Sarah ======== #112980 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The final set of notes for the trip. We have a couple of quiet days and then on Tues, Jon and I have a long trip back to Sydney via Hong Kong. 7. Rob E's questions - Meditation subjects and now!(see #112949). KS: Why select? Rob's response about the Buddha recommending different meditation subjects and so on. KS: what appears now? Again! Can breath be the object of right understanding now? If not, why think about it? Kusala is the moment without lobha, dosa or moha. When there is any kusala, there is calm Qu about the opening stanzas in the Anapanasati sutta and breath. KS: What appears now? Can that which does not appear be the object of right understanding? #112799 Rob "And yet, in the relevant suttas, the practice of sitting and concentrating through breath and other objects of meditation finds the Buddha using...." KS: Using!! Dhammas are anatta. ".....he reached his own enlightenment through sitting meditation, and was a master of the jhanas himself...' KS: Yes, breath. Breath is for mahapurisas. This doesn't mean we know about breath. What is it? Does it appear? Do we really know it? Is it the sensation of breath or do we think it's there? Wanting? Is it the object of attachment or detachment? If one goes and meditates, it's wrong view. Breath - does it appear now? If and when breath appears, there can be right understanding, not just for the mahapurisa. It's very difficult to be aware. A conditioned dhamma - anatta. - killing (#112892) When there is the intention to kill but someone is prevented from carrying out the act - maybe a wounding, for example. The intention is the same, but the act, the kamma-patha is not complete yet. It cannot produce rebirth, but can bring its results after rebirth. - discussing dhamma and motives in message to Jon. Rob "There is an intention to develop enlightenment factors lurking beneath, otherwise no one would bother" Similar to Phil's points. Discussing dhamma - different moments, different cittas. "Silabbataparamasa appears by attachment" (as mentioned last time) means one would like to understand. Wanting to come here to discuss or trying to do something to have such understanding or coming to attain enlightenment is silabbataparamasa. Trying or liking to experience realities or wanting to experience. It depends on the moment whether there is trying to have understanding, whether there is silabbataparamasa. ***** The session lasted less than two hours, but we cover a lot of ground when we visit. I can think of a lot of friends on DSG who've been active members over the years, like Rob, Phil or Howard who would really appreciate the discussion, company (and food, Rob!!). If any of you have any chance of visiting Thailand anytime, please send me a note and I'd be very happy to try and coordinate something to make it worthwhile for you. Friends are trying to persuade me to visit again in March, perhaps for a few days in the countryside. How about joining Rob, Phil or anyone else if it happens? That would really persuade me! Metta Sarah ======= #112981 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 3:44 am Subject: On the Spot! bhikkhu5 Friends: Winning Calm & Serene Bliss by Breathing..! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, this sweet concentration by Awareness by Breathing, when it is developed and cultivated, is peaceful and sublime, an ambrosial pleasant dwelling in itself, and it disperses and quells right on the very spot all evil detrimental mental states, whenever and wherever they arise...! Exactly as in a hot summer month, when a cloud of dust and dirt has been swirled up, then a sudden great & heavy rainfall makes it vanish by quelling it on the spot, so too does this concentration by Awareness by Breathing, when developed and cultivated often, and which is peaceful and sublime, an ambrosial pleasant dwelling in itself, disperse, scatter, evaporate and quell right on the spot all evil & disadvantageous mental states whenever & wherever they arise. And how is this so? Bhikkhus, when one have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, there & then one sits down cross-legged, having straightened one's body and back, & set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plainly aware of only that breathing itself one breathes in, and just solely aware of only that very breathing itself one breathes out... Feeling only the touch of air passing! Breathing in long, one knows, notes and understands: I inhale long! Breathing out long, one knows, notes and understands: I exhale long! ... ... ... ( steps 2-15) ... ... ... One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe in! One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out! It is in exactly this way, Friends & Bhikkhus, that this fine concentration by Awareness by Breathing is developed & cultivated so that it indeed is peaceful and sublime, an ambrosial pleasant dwelling in itself! And it is in this way that it disperses and quells on the spot all evil detrimental states whenever and wherever they arise! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. [V:321-22] section 54: Ânâpânasamyutta. Thread 9: At Vesali! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112982 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 3, no 5 nilovg Dear Han, Thank you so much, it is indeed very useful. These days I am about the start another section and it will be dealing with the passages you sent me. Nina. Op 9-jan-2011, om 1:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The following is the excerpts from Abhisamayakathaa of > Pa.tisambhidaamagga. #112983 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(5) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 9-jan-2011, om 6:07 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Vibhuuta vihaari - what is clear, living for, i.e living for panna > to understand what appears (clearly). > Nina, see the Thai Maha Nidesa, Sariputta Nidesa, p.664 (at bottom > left of page). On the sleeve it gives S/2 664, I believe. I'd be > interested to see your translation of the paragraph sometime. ------- N: Thank you. Exactly, I found it. There is only this one sentence, and I do not think there is a further elaboration, but I shall read on, Nina. > #112984 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 12:01 pm Subject: Re: Thank you Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Alan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Remember the lady who had lost every member of her family and appeared naked in her grief and madness before the assembly of bhikkhus and the Buddha? The Buddha had someone give her a cloak and then what was his "recipe" for her grief and despair? Simply, the same "recipe" that we all need - that on the 4NT. Dukkha, Desire as cause, the end of Dukkha and the One Way. ... S: You mentioned you'd like to read more of this story. I don't have my texts with me, but here's a summary from PDPN about Patacara Therii http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/pa/patacara.htm "The Buddha spoke to her words of consolation, making her realize the inevitable ness of death; he then taught her the Truth." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.06.01.than.html [Patacara recalls the Buddha's words:] "You don't know the path of his coming or going, that being who has come from where? — the one you lament as 'my son.' But when you know the path of his coming or going, you don't grieve after him, for that is the nature of beings. Unasked, he came from there. Without permission, he went from here — coming from where? having stayed a few days. And coming one way from here, he goes yet another from there. Dying in the human form, he will go wandering on. As he came, so he has gone — so what is there to lament?" Pulling out —completely out — the arrow so hard to see, embedded in my heart, he expelled from me —overcome with grief — the grief over my son. Today — with arrow removed, without hunger, entirely Unbound — to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha I go, for refuge to the Sage." Metta Sarah ======== #112985 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. ashkenn2k Dear Howard ===================== >They exist as delineable things only as a matter of convention, and >they are to be investigated in order to be seen through as such - merely >conventions without separate being, without reality. They are not just to be >seen but to be seen *through*. They are, as the Buddha teaches, like dream >sensations rather than realities. Even consciousness itself is like a magic >trick, and perception like a mirage. All namas and rupas are, as the Buddha >teaches, when seen correctly, empty/void - unreal, in fact. KO: If it is unreal, then one cannot experience pleasure or pain. If it is unreal then D.O will not be real, becuse D.O speak of what is real and what is not real. If it is unreal, then the Noble truth will be unreal as it teaches the understanding of empty/void. It is important to differentiate the meaning between what is unreal and what is empty. >Certainly there is variation in experience, but delineable things are >non-existent except as matters of convention. It is useful to us to >conceive of the experiential flow as fragmented into a sequence of separate, >delineable things, but it is no more than that - a useful conceiving. An >analogy: We speak of waves in the ocean. There are such, but no one can say in >truth where a wave ends or begins. There is no separation. Our speaking of >them as separate things is merely a conceptual and verbal convenience. The >same is true with the elementary components of experience: sights, sounds, >tastes, smells,bodily sensations and so on. Ends and beginnings are dreams. >As for anger, many instances of mental states are similar and >identified (labeled) as "anger," but it is a convention to do so. They differ >from > >each other in intensity and in quality. Moreover, an instance of what we >call "anger" rises, peaks, and falls as an emotional wave and without precise >beginning or ending. It is much like an ocean wave, conventionally thought >of as a definite and discrete thing, but not so in reality. All that we >think of as real is other than that. Only nibbana is real. KO: All dhamma have precise cause and effect. without precision, where is there condition for anger to arise. Without precision, how does one know the difference between dosa and lobha, or between panna and moha. It must be precise. Just as the Noble Truth, it is precise on how to eradicate suffering. Without precision, how does one learn this is kusala and this is akusala. All dhamma is precise. It is because of moha that blinds the nature of dhamma, that is why we cannot see the precise dhamma, nama and rupa. Thanks Ken O #112986 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ashkenn2k Dear Robert > >Nobody said they don't exist. You are reading that into what is being said based > >on your firm belief that something can't exist unless it can be pinned down and >described as a static object. The problem is that nothing is static, and dhammas > >don't stand still to be photographed. They are in flux just like everything in >samsara is necessarily in a process of change and transformation at every moment > >and at every micro-moment. Look, we all perform various functions >conventionally, and yet we don't exist the way we think we do. I'm just saying >that dhammas don't exist the way we think they do either, not they don't exist >as real events. If you take a picture of a moving train you can say all sorts of > >things about them, but it is the movement that characterizes the train. You >can't leave it out. Likewise, dhammas are in motion, and that motion is anicca. >The idea that anicca is a static characteristic rather than a description of >continuous changing nature of the dhamma is a real distortion of what anicca is. > >I would *really* like to get K. Sujin's word on this, because I don't think she >will agree with you. >> KO: Dhamma is not about static or influx or motiion. It is about conditions that dhamma that condition dhamma to arise. Anatta is a nature of dhamma, it is not about dhamma in motion. Even if a human could run as fast as light or as slow as a snail, it is still dhamma that condition the dhamma to arise. that nature of dhamma is anatta, if it is condition that nature is anicca and dukkha. These are characteristics that cannot be separated from dhamma. Motion got nothing to do with anicca also, whether you are a god or a snail, motion is condition by dhamma. Dhamma is anicca, that is the nature of such except for Nibbana. the description in Abhidhamma is to understand dhamma and the characteristic of them. This describing helps to break them the compounding effect of our attachment to self. Self is a construct due to the moha and ditthi. Even moha and ditthi are not self . >> ------------------- >> RE: > Sarah, would that make a good question for K. Sujin? :-) Is the anicca >>characteristic of dhammas expressed in the three phases of a dhamma arising, >>functioning and then falling away? Thanks...! KO: Yes because of this rising and falling, there is suffering. >> ------------------- >> >> Why not ask her something we have actually been disagreeing about: "Are >>conditioned dhammas real in the ultimate sense of the word? Are they discrete >>objects that have absolute identity?" KO: they are discrete objects and have characteristics to be identified their uniqueness. Without an identity or charactertistics unique to them, how could one differentiate moha and panna. Then the world would be mixed up, how can there be salvation. They are discrete does not mean they could arise on their own because there are conditions for their arisen. No condition dhamma arise on their own but their individual characteristic can be known. If cannot be known, how can Buddha describe dhamma in terms of elements, senses, bases and aggregates etc. Cheers Ken O #112987 From: nichicon cp Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 5:09 pm Subject: Sa'ngiitisutta.m CSCD 331. sutta 7.7 nichiconn ?Dear Friends, Happy New Year. DN33 Sevens, #7 (minus footnotes): CSCD 331. <They exist as delineable things only as a matter of convention, and >they are to be investigated in order to be seen through as such - merely >conventions without separate being, without reality. They are not just to be >seen but to be seen *through*. They are, as the Buddha teaches, like dream >sensations rather than realities. Even consciousness itself is like a magic >trick, and perception like a mirage. All namas and rupas are, as the Buddha >teaches, when seen correctly, empty/void - unreal, in fact. KO: If it is unreal, then one cannot experience pleasure or pain. If it is unreal then D.O will not be real, becuse D.O speak of what is real and what is not real. If it is unreal, then the Noble truth will be unreal as it teaches the understanding of empty/void. It is important to differentiate the meaning between what is unreal and what is empty. -------------------------------------------------- Tell it to the Buddha, who taught the following: /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) and /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) and /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) and, most strikingly /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) ----------------------------------------------------------------- >Certainly there is variation in experience, but delineable things are >non-existent except as matters of convention. It is useful to us to >conceive of the experiential flow as fragmented into a sequence of separate, >delineable things, but it is no more than that - a useful conceiving. An >analogy: We speak of waves in the ocean. There are such, but no one can say in >truth where a wave ends or begins. There is no separation. Our speaking of >them as separate things is merely a conceptual and verbal convenience. The >same is true with the elementary components of experience: sights, sounds, >tastes, smells,bodily sensations and so on. Ends and beginnings are dreams. >As for anger, many instances of mental states are similar and >identified (labeled) as "anger," but it is a convention to do so. They differ >from > >each other in intensity and in quality. Moreover, an instance of what we >call "anger" rises, peaks, and falls as an emotional wave and without precise >beginning or ending. It is much like an ocean wave, conventionally thought >of as a definite and discrete thing, but not so in reality. All that we >think of as real is other than that. Only nibbana is real. KO: All dhamma have precise cause and effect. without precision, where is there condition for anger to arise. Without precision, how does one know the difference between dosa and lobha, or between panna and moha. It must be precise. --------------------------------------------------- WHAT must be precise? Conditionality? In that regard, what is the precision you are speaking of? Conditionality certainly operates in specific ways. I don't say otherwise. At the macroscopic level, an oak tree will grow only from an acorn, and not without nutrients and water and sunlight, and these cannot be replaced respectively by daisy seeds, and concrete pellets and vinegar and flashbulb light. That is all true. Likewise, awakening cannot occur by hoping, but only by specific conditions. None of that, however, alters what the Buddha has said about reality. Endings and beginnings cannot be pinpointed, and nothing is graspable. Separate, sharply defined entities are only matters of convention, not matters of reality. Samsara, in all respects, is the product of ignorance. Separate entities are mere conventional existents - not nothing at all, but not "realities" either. Only nibbana is truly real, independent of convention. --------------------------------------------------- Just as the Noble Truth, it is precise on how to eradicate suffering. Without precision, how does one learn this is kusala and this is akusala. All dhamma is precise. It is because of moha that blinds the nature of dhamma, that is why we cannot see the precise dhamma, nama and rupa. Thanks Ken O ================================ With metta, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #112989 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 9, 2011 10:20 pm Subject: Breath Meditation! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is constant Awareness Established only by Breathing ? Sitting cross-legged, with straight back, elevated chin, in a silent place, the yogi remains focusing all attention on the touch point of air in his nostrils: Fully aware one inhales and fully aware one exhales... When inhaling a long breath, one notices that... When exhaling a long breath, one notices that... When inhaling a short breath, one notices that... When exhaling a short breath, one notices that... Experiencing the whole body, one inhales... Experiencing the whole body, one exhales... Calming all bodily activity, one inhales... Calming all bodily activity, one exhales... One trains thus: Experiencing joyous rapture, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing joyous rapture, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will exhale... One trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will inhale... One trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mentality as mood, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mentality as mood, I will exhale... One trains thus: Satisfying and gladdening the mind, I will inhale... One trains thus: Satisfying and gladdening the mind, I will exhale... One trains thus: Focusing the mind by concentration, I will inhale... One trains thus: Focusing the mind by concentration, I will exhale... One trains thus: Releasing the mind from hindrance, I will inhale... One trains thus: Releasing the mind from hindrance, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the impermanence of change, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the impermanence of change, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the detachment in disillusion, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the detachment in disillusion, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the stilling within cessation, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the stilling within cessation, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering open and freed relinquishing, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering open and freed relinquishing, I will exhale... This is how continuous Awareness is established just by breathing!!! Breathing meditation can bring the yogi into 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Jhâna ... It is a unique praxis used by all Buddhas at their very Enlightenment!!! Details are found in this Meditation Manual: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/pdfs/anapanasati.pdf <....> Source: Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikâya 118 Ânâpânasati: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #112990 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IV,78 sarahprocter... Dear Chew, --- On Wed, 5/1/11, Sadhu Chew wrote: >Temporary I have to on hold my Visuddhimagga study. Because I am now helping in the editing on the transcribe work of the Abhidhamma talks by Sayaadaw U Siilaananda. It is going to be 3 volumes with about 1200 pages. ... S: This will be interesting. Anumodana in your work. Please share any extracts anytime. .... >Regarding the comments on the two kinds of space, when I studied the history of Buddhism, (YinShun's book). The Mahaavihara sect of the Sri Lanka, when talks about unconditioned Dhamma, this sect only refers to pratisamkhyaa-nirodha, which is the Nibbaana that we say in Abhidhammatthasangaha. Whereas, the other school, Sarvastivadin, they refer to three: 1. pratisamkhyaa-nirodha, 2.apratisamkhyaa-nirodha, 3. aakaasa. .... S: I think we have to study the texts of the Mahaavihara sect for ourselves very carefully, i.e the Pali commentaries. As you go on to suggest, even one word can be interpreted in many different ways. .... >Different schools of Buddhism, sometimes they define the meaning of the terms differently. >Sometimes, even in the same school, there are also different kinds of opinions. When we study Abhidhammatthasangaha, we notice that too. ... S: Yes, different understandings of what is meant. As you know, Ledi Sayadaw often disagreed with the ancient commentaries. We have to read and consider very carefully. The teachings are very subtle and all concerned with the anattaness of dhammas now, as we agree. ... >I do not disagree with others' comments on the two kinds of space. As long as we make it clear. Thank you very much. Please share with us whatever interesting Dhamma that you are going to get from K.Sujin. Once again, Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu. .... S: Thanks, Chew. It's helpful to share what we listen to and find helpful. I always appreciate your sharings too. Did you have any comments on any of my notes I wrote up recently? Very best wishes with all your endeavours and for a growth of pa~n~naa for 2011. Metta Sarah ========= #112991 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:51 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112814) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > Just re-dissecting the corpse meditation topic again... > > =============== > > J: Yes, good to have some actual sutta quotes to discuss. I agree. Are suttas actual by the way, or just concepts? > > =============== > > Segment from the Mahasatipatthana Sutta: > > > > [4] "Furthermore... just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain — wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice — and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' > > =============== > > J: The commentary to this passage (from the part on Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body) has the following: I wonder what you would think of the above passage without the commentary? I would also like to question a little more closely who wrote the commentaries? Is there any readily available info about the status of the commentaries, how they were adopted and when they were written? There are places in the commentaries where they veer quite widely away from the literal sense of the words. > "The following is the application of the simile: Like the bag with the two openings is the body made up of the four great primaries, earth, water, fire and air." > > The four great primaries (earth, water, fire and air) are rupas. So I see this passage as referring to awareness of dhammas. The meaning is that what we take for the body is, in terms of paramattha dhammas, nothing more than the 4 primary rupas. I am sorry but this seems very removed from what the Buddha said, and I don't see the justification for it. That is not what the sutta says, and it seems pretty clear that the commentators are taking the occasion of the sutta to bend its meaning to their own philosophy. There isn't the slightest indication in the sutta that this is what Buddha is driving at, when he says that like investigating the contents of a rice sack, one inventories the contents of the body and he talks about the actual physical contents, including all the organs and fluids. The point is obvious - he wants us to understand and contemplate the actual nature of the physical body rather than seeing it as a lovely, prettified person, but to see it as a mechanism with many unattractive and utilitarian features and functions. To turn that into an analysis of the four great elements and paramatha dhammas with absolutely no regard for any of the content of the actual sutta, is not only ludicrous to me, but insulting to the Buddha. I'm sorry, but I don't think the commentator here is doing any justice to the Buddha's message, and I would really like to know who he is and when he wrote it. For the commentary to appear valid, it should at least have *something* to do with the words the Buddha spoke and not just say "well it's really about this." Otherwise it is just signing the Buddha's name to a completely different tract.Buddha didn't just say "the parts of the body," he listed them, so it was perfectly clear what the subject of his discussion was. The Buddha was not such a bad communicator that he has to be completely reinterpreted in order to understand what he "really" meant. And since we do have an "actual sutta" to talk about, are we going to talk about the sutta at all, or only about the commentary and what it imputes to the sutta? > > =============== > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. > > =============== > > J: As regards the reference to contemplating the body in the body, the commentary explains that 'in the body' means 'in the corporeal group' i.e., in rupa-khandha. Well it may very well be that "the body" is in "the corporeal group." That makes simple sense, doesn't it? But that doesn't mean that this is the level of understanding that the Buddha was aiming at. "The body in the body" and "the feelings in the feelings," etc. ,have had several different interpretations in different commentaries, and I'm not really sure what the final meaning is, but since the Buddha says "IN THIS WAY he remains focused internally on the body..." it clearly says that the listing and inventory that the Buddha has made is "the way" that the body is to be contemplated in this case. One can't ignore the words that are inconvenient or invent alternate meanings. We should try to pay heed to what the Buddha actually said, and the sense in the words. > > =============== > > [5] "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' > > =============== > > J: This part of the sutta (on Reflection on the Modes of Materiality (Elements, Dhatu)) begins with the words: > > "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are, in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' > > The terms "solidity", "cohesion", "caloricity" and "oscillation" are translations of the Pali terms for the 4 primary rupas. Again, the sutta is referring to awareness of dhammas. This section IS about the analysis of the four elements in the body, because *it says so.* I would note that the Buddha begins by saying "Furthermore...", which is to say that the previous passages were *not* about the 4 elements, a direct contradiction to what the commentary says about the laundry list of organs and fluids. It seems very clear to me that the Buddha is moving through different contemplations and different levels, starting with the inventory of the organs and fluids, then contemplating the four elements, and so on. They are not all the same thing, they form a progression that allows the Buddha to make his case for how to build understanding from one contemplation to the next. We should pay attention to his plan, his program, his order, and his subject matter, not decide that every passage is not about what it says, but is all about a generalization about dhammas, over and over again. Otherwise it's not Buddhism - it's "overlay-your-own-philosophy-ism" and enjoy reading your own message in the Buddha's words. > > =============== > > [6] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... > > =============== > > J: The commentary to this passage gives the following: > > "This has been stated: By the existence of these three: life [ayu], warmth [usma], consciousness [viññanam], this body can endure to stand, to walk, and do other things; by the separation of these three however this body is indeed a thing like that corpse, is possessed of the nature of corruption, is going to become like that, will become swollen, blue and festering and cannot escape the state of being like that, cannot transcend the condition of swelling up, become blue and festering." > > To my reading, the terms life [ayu], warmth [usma], consciousness [viññanam], are references to dhammas. Well you can translate as you wish, and the commentators can too. It seems to me that here the commentator echoes the Buddha in his own preferred language. However, there is no doubt about the Buddha's point: we are to give up the illusion of immortality which we all adopt to enjoy our lives, and see that our body is impermanent and corruptible and that it will enjoy the same fate as a corpse. By contemplating this, not casually, but seriously, we take away the illusion of sameness, solidity and incorruptibility of the body and self. I am not going to give up the Buddha's message for one that is more abstract and philosophical, however meaningful it may be for one who is as advanced as the commentator, and who can sit back and dissect the Buddha's words into more precise sub-categories. That was not the Buddha's intent, and so it is not mine either. Buddha was addressing those who were dynamically involved in life, who did not think that their kidneys and bile broke down into tiny sub-particles, and who were being led to understand the status of *their own* lives, not a philosophical category. > > =============== > > These are very specific instructions on how to step-by-step contemplate the body as not-self and as anicca. It is not by seeing individual dhammas as not-self and as anicca. > > =============== > > J: The 14 sections to the part on Contemplation of the Body are each an answer to the question "How does a bhikkhu live contemplating the body in the body?" Each section describes a different situation/set of circumstances, between them covering all aspects of a monk's life. > > (The 14 sections are the sections: > - on breathing in and breathing out > - on the postures/modes of deportment > - on the four kinds of clear comprehension > - of reflection on repulsiveness of the body > - on the modes of materiality (elements, dhatu) > - on the nine cemetery contemplations.) > > And in each case the text is referring to the awareness/understanding of dhammas rather than to awareness/ understanding of the situation. I believe it does both. The situations and how to regard them are described in detail, not passed over. The text doesn't say, "Now with regard to breathing, when you happen to be breathing, understand the following dhammas. It talks about the *breathing* in detail - even moreso in the anapanasati sutta, and in satipatthana sutta talks in brief about understanding the body as anicca, the arising and falling away of physical experience. It also adds "OR he contemplates the body as he experiences it until such time as his understanding increases" - or something like that. All levels are accounted for, acknowledged and certified as part of the contemplation that is part of the path. > > =============== > > It is in seeing specific aspects of the body as we worldlings know it - hair, phlegm and pus are not dhammas, but conceptual constructs according to dhamma theory. Yet these are the detailed objects that Buddha asks us to contemplate. > > =============== > > As far as I know, there's no specific mention in the sutta of the monk seeing hair, phlegm and pus etc as not-self. That is a particular interpretation of the text. We are asked to contemplate them in order to understand the nature of the body. I don't think I said that this was a contemplation on anatta, but I do think it leads towards anatta, seeing that the body is an impersonal mechanism, rather than a part of self, and I think that's the direction in which the Buddha was driving us worldlings. > > =============== > > When the body is seen as decomposing, Buddha explicitly says that by examining a body and seeing that one's own body is equally impermanent and subject to dissolution, that - as Buddha puts it - when the monk sees the body "decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' > > > > When Buddha instructs us to regard the body in this way, and that the application of this contemplation is to see that our own body has this nature and will reach this same fate in the future, he is instructing us to understand anicca as regards our own body-concept; that the body that we cling to is subject to dissolution. It is about the long arc of our fate - not about momentary dhammas. > > =============== > > J: Are you saying that before the Buddha's enlightenment nobody had realised the inevitability of death and the dissolution of the body (the 'long arc of our fate')? > > I think there must be more to it than this. I really love this argument whenever it arises, that to be a valid philosophy or a useful path, that it has to be something that no one has ever thought of before. I am sorry to say that even the idea of momentary arising and falling phenomena was known to Hindu philosophy for centuries prior to Buddhism. None of it, in and of itself, is original, I think, except for the specific ideas of anatta and the path out of suffering. What is most original to Buddha are his specific methods for developing insight and panna, particularly his meditation methods. :-) In any case, the way that he instructed people to contemplate their lives was uniquely designed to confront them with the illusions we construct through rationalization and conceptualization of life - but starting with the level of the feeling of immortality, sameness, identity and other factors that are conventional, as well as the more philosophical analysis of the breakdown of absolute reality. The latter is for those who are ready for a refined analysis. Those who are still living life as interested persons, as committed worldlings, need a message that is closer to home, and they did get it. It's been written down in sutta, and the Buddha apparently thought it was a significant message or he would have said "don't waste your time inventorying the kidneys and the bile and phlegm. When you taste the phlegm and feel the bile, and when someone punches you in the kidney, those are all mere conceptual constructs. Instead let's talk about the rupas of movement and hardness that are really taking place, because that is where enlightenment lies. Strangely, in most suttas he didn't say that, but talked about the realities of life for worldlings. The more consistent microscopic analysis is saved for the Abhidhamma. > > =============== > > I think that we get closer to dhamma theory by looking closely at the self and body concepts; rather than dismissing them as "mere concepts" > > =============== > > J: Not sure what you mean by 'looking closely at self concepts'. This is not something that was ever spoken of by the Buddha. I don't see how a concept of self (as opposed to the thinking that has the concept as object) could be the object of panna. I'm calling it self and body concepts, but if that seems confusing we could just say self and body. > > =============== > and being content with pariyatti about dhammas that we cannot yet see. > > =============== > > J: If there is not first the correct intellectual basis there will never be the direct discernment of dhammas by panna. If, as you think, there are really separate worlds of dhammas and concepts and the two never meet, you may be right that we must have an understanding that leads us to ignore the things we perceive in everyday life in order to wait for a different universe to appear. I don't believe that is true, and I don't think that was taught either by the Buddha or in the Abhidhamma. But I appreciate the conversation! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112992 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:08 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112815) > > > In each case, the 3 characteristics are ascribed to dhammas, not to conventional objects. > > > > Well, it really depends on how you look at the kandhas. Analyzing experiences in terms of their constituent elements is more precise than just talking about objects in a more casual way, > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, dhammas are not the 'constituent elements' of conventional objects/experiences. So it would not be possible by analyzing objects/experiences to come to understand anything about dhammas.. Yes, I think this view is a very esoteric one that is not even suggested by the Buddha. I think it must come almost completely by way of the commentaries and sub-commentaries. As I learn a little more about them, it seems that the commentators had a radical agenda that was gnostic in nature, and removed from the gradual middle way that Buddha described in so many suttas. I think we have a very strong disagreement on this. If you think that all the subjects that Buddha talked about have secret messages and that they themselves do not represent the path, or mean at all what they say, you are no longer talking about Buddhism, but about a specialized interpretation that doubts the Buddha's words and substitutes the words of the later commentators. ONe then has their own separate philosophy in which everything we see and hear is an illusion and there is a whole different world, akin to an unseen heaven, waiting to be suddenly opened to vision by a specialized panna that must be developed over aeons. Thus one goes through life thinking it is all false and there is nothing to do but study and contemplate the "wholly other" reality that one can never see. I have heard even the plain words of the Visudhimagga twisted into a pretzel to mean something other than what they say. If Buddhaghosa says "seek out a teacher," it is interpreted to mean "don't seek a teacher but discern arising dhammas." If Buddhaghosa says "count the breaths" it is said to be a coincidental description of one who happened to be counting the breaths, and he is being instructed to "discern arising dhammas." So I think this very specialized view has been superimposed onto the words of the Buddha and made to take their place. In fact, I don't think the commentarial view would lose much of its integrity by dispensing with the suttas altogether, since they are never taken literally, but substituted by the meanings given by the commentators to replace them. Why call it Buddhism at all? If we look at the Abhidhamma and the instructions discussed on this list as a way of seeing life more clearly and in more detail, I think it is very valuable. To see the conditioning factors that create arising dhammas and kamma is extremely valuable as a way of understanding what happens in life. But when you take it away from that and say "life as we know it is a meaningless illusion showing us nothing - Buddhism is about a completely separate world of little dhammas that have nothing to do with the worldling's life" - it loses all integrity and no longer references what the Buddha said or instructed about how to be liberated from *this* world of suffering, not some other one that is made up and never seen, and only exists for us in books. > > =============== > > but Buddha also talks equally at ease about conventional objects and situations. Buddha emphasizes the process by which we experience things so that we can understand that, for instance, when we see a desired object, that there is contact and then vedana and then based on vedana more complex formations arise. That is an understanding of process. He shows where clinging and craving come from. But he never says that it is single dhammas that he is referring to, and that what he is analyzing does not apply to conventional objects that are the subject of clinging, craving and delusion. > > =============== > > J: An example of the Buddha explaining that conventional objects (in this case, birth, old age and death) are to be understood in terms of dhammas would be the Buddha's statement of the first of the Four Noble Truths, which ends with the words "in short, the 5 khandhas of clinging are suffering". The difference in our understanding is that you think the 5 kandhas do not occur in life, but occur in an alternate universe that is described in commentaries. I see the 5 kandhas as being a practical breakdown of our very existence in this moment. When we see that the body, thought and perception break down to momentary experiences of physicality, thought-acts and moments of contact-vedana-proliferation, I understand that my life is a mechanism of kamma and conditions, not the life of a self that controls existence, or thoughts and possessions that can belong to self. That is the Buddha's message and it actually helps worldlings to move towards liberation. It is not an erudite, removed, separate world that one has to wait to see, but one that can be engaged now, with tools to engage it now, and open up the possibility of liberation in this lifetime. The kandhas describe *this* reality, how we move, act and think, not a universe in another realm. This is samsara, and it is this samsara that we need to wake up to truly see. I continue to be educated by you and the others through your commitment, scholarship, and understanding. But I'm afraid we may never apply this great knowledge in the same way - aiming towards different universes and all that. Still I appreciate all that you know and your fellowship. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #112993 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:11 am Subject: Re: How can killiing or stealing not be a conventional deed? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112822) > > So are we then only talking about the classification schemes throughout the suttas, or do we also include all of the other things that Buddha talked about. What then is the status of the Buddha's instructions about deeds and actions to be engaged or avoided? Do we ignore them? > > =============== > > J: Of course we don't ignore teachings that are couched in terms of deeds and actions to be engaged in or avoided. But we understand them in terms of the teaching on dhammas, that is to say, that part of the teaching that is unique to a Buddha. In your opinion. The Buddha seemed to think that everything he said was worth hearing. I would not be so selective. > > =============== > > I think the point is what Buddha said the point was, that certain deeds are inherently kusala, such as meritorious actions, and others are inherently akusala, such as dice-throwing and telling lies. Of course there will be kusala and akusala mental states taking place throughout any of these activities, but that is the point - those mental states is *not* the only thing that Buddha stressed as important; deeds are in a category of their own. Since Buddha put so much importance on keeping good company and avoiding evil acts, how can we say that he did not ultimately regard those as crucial to the path? > > =============== > > J: 'Avoiding' and evil act with akusala would be itself an evil act and hence not an avoiding at all. Don't understand this statement. Can you explain? Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = #112994 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(2) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Thu, 6/1/11, Robert E wrote: >Wow! Well you did reply instantly, and I was tempted to reply instantly back again -- in an attempt to imitate momentary dhammas -- but I decided to do a little research first so I wouldn't sound completely clueless, only partially clueless. :-) .... S: :-) I was impressed when I read your quotes on the ayatanas after some of your research. > S: There are 28 rupas as you know. > > 12 of these rupas are referred to as gross, more apparent. These are the 7 rupas which are experienced by the sense cittas, i.e visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 tangible objects, i.e hardness/softness, temperature and motion, plus the 5 sense bases, i.e eye-base, ear-base etc. R:> So, let's see if I understand this: there are gross sensory rupas and the sense-bases that correspond to them, which equals 12 gross rupas. So the gross ayatanas are considered rupas, as well as those that are sensory objects. .... S: There isn't an expression "gross ayatanas". We can put it round the other way, rupa-ayatana, sadda-ayatana, rasa-ayatana etc are outer ayatanas, the gross rupas (visible object etc) experienced through the senses. The sense bases, such as eye-base, are inner ayatanas. These are also gross rupas. .... R:> Now when I look at the ayatanas, there are 12 of those as well - very popular number - so I don't want to get confused. As I read you, the ayatanas that are "gross" are those that correspond to the sensory objects, however, when I look at the list of ayatanas they include more than one base for some of the senses, ie, "...the eye-base, visible-data base, ear base, sound base, nose base, odour base, tongue base, flavour base, body base, and tangible-data base." Are these all gross? If so, the numbers don't seem to add up... .... S: Here, base is being used as (a confusing) translation of ayatana. They are referring to the inner ayatana of eye-base and the outer ayatana of visible object and so on. At a moment of seeing consciousness, there is the "coming together" or meeting of the visible object impinging on eye-base. So here, we have 5 inner and 5 outer ayatanas. In addition, there is the inner ayatana of mano-ayatana, including all cittas, one at a time and the outer ayatana of dhamma-ayatana, including all cetasikas (min 7 at a time), subtle rupas (max one at a time if object of citta) and nibbana (only if experienced). .... R:> On the other hand, I assume the remaining ayatanas, mind-base and mental-data base, are among the subtle rupas...? ... S: Turn it round - the subtle rupas are included in "mental-data base". .... >Can you give me the full list of subtle rupas so I can sort of compare? I'm still pretty confused about which is which, and what they consist of. .... S: From Han's message #100240 O.laarika Ruupas (Gross Ruupas) (12) (1) Pathavii = earth element (2) Tejo = fire element (3) Vaayo = air element (4) Cakkhu-pasaada = sensitive part of the eye (5) Sota-pasaada = sensitive part of the ear (6) Ghaana-pasaada = sensitive part of the nose (7) Jivhaa-pasaada = sensitive part of the tongue (8) Kaaya-pasaada = sensitive part of the body (9) Rupaa-ramma.na = visible form (va.n.na) (10) Saddaa-ramma.na = sound (sadda) (11) Gandhaa-ramma.na = smell (gandha) (12) Rasaa-ramma.na = taste (rasa) Sukhuma Ruupas (Subtle Ruupas) (16) (1) Aapo = water element (2) Itthi-bhaava = femininity (3) Purisa-bhaava = masculinity (4) Hadaya-vatthu = heart-base (5) Jivita-ruupa = life-faculty (6) Aahaara-ruupa = nutriment (ojaa) (7) Pariccheda-ruupa = space element (aakaasa-dhaatu) (8) Kaaya-vi~n~natti = bodily intimation (9) Vaci-vi~n~natti = vocal intimation (10) Ruupassa-lahutaa = physical lightness or buoyancy (11) Ruupassa-mudutaa = physical elasticity or malleability (12) Ruupassa-kamma~n~nataa = physical adaptability (13) Upacaaya-ruupa = arising of ruupa at the moment of conception (14) Santati-ruupa = subsequent arising of ruupas throughout the life (15) Jarataa-ruupa = decay (16) Aniccataa-ruupa = dissolution or impermanence ============================== R:> If I've got it correctly at all, as I absorb some new vocabulary, there are gross ayatanas and their aramanas, and subtle ayatanas with their aramanas. Is that at all on the right track? .... S: Not really. I think it's better to forget about such terms as "gross ayatana" and "subtle ayatana". Also, under the subject of ayatanas, we're not discussing arammanas, but the meeting together of various dhammas. Now, it happens that in some cases, the ayatana is also the arammana, such as visible object and so on. .... R:> One final thing from later in your post, which really confused me: >>S: When it comes to the classification of the ayatanas (being discussed in the point), eye-base and the other sense bases are all classified as inner ayatanas. R:> If the sense-bases are inner ayatanas, does that make them subtle? .... S: No. .... R:> I think not, because before I think they were said to be the gross ayatanas, so I think there's another distinction there between inner and outer which is apart from whether they are subtle or gross...? ... S: As I said, think "meeting of dhammas" rather than subtle or gross. .... R:> I'll stop there for clarification before trying to tackle the rest of your very informative post...but to which I have some catching up to do... .... S: Just keep asking! These are "subtle" topics:-)) An example is given in the Vism of the balancing on the point of a needle of various dhammas. In order for this moment of seeing to occur, there has to be the meeting of all the necessary ingredients at that instant - the visible object, the eye, base, the seeing, the accompanying mental factors - inner and outer ayatanas "coming together". It shows us how anatta the arising of dhammas, the experience of dhammas is. No one could make seeing occur at this moment or make it see any particular object. It just depends on kamma and associated conditions. The citta itself has no interest in whether it arises or not or in what it experiences. ... R:> [I will be more prepared the next time I say "no rush." :-)) ] ... [S: It's like saying "no rush" to a child when you give him/her an ice-cream!] Metta Sarah ======= #112995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:52 am Subject: [dsg] Sa'ngiitisutta book of Sevens, sutta 7 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, (10) Sa'ngiitisutta, Book of Sevens, sutta 7. CSCD 331. << Walshe: DN. 33.2.3(7) 'Seven grounds for commendation (niddasa- vatthuuni): Here, a monk is keenly anxious (a) to undertake the training, and wants to persist in this, (b) to make a close study of the Dhamma, (c) to get rid of desires, (d) to find solitude, (e) to arouse energy, (f) to develop mindfulness and discrimination (sati- nepakke), (g) to develop penetrative insight. -------- N: The Jains (niga.n.thas) referred to arahats who died within ten years of attaining saintship as having distinctive qualities (niddasa). The commentary relates that Ananda spoke to the Buddha about this matter. The Buddha explained that not only those who passed away after ten years, nine years, etc. one year, ten month... one month, one day, one minute, had distinctive qualities. Essential is that there is no more rebirth for them. This is the meaning of having eradicated the aasavas in my religion, the Buddha said. The tiika adds: by the realisation of the cause (for this). After having said by which reasons there is distinction, he taught seven distinctive qualities as bases, and it is implied that these are bases for arahatship. ------- Word explanation by the commentary: A keen desire for the undertaking of the training (sikkhaasamaadaane tibbacchando), which means: an intense desire for the fulfillment of the training. A keen desire to persist in the undertaking of the training (aayati~nca sikkhaasamaadaane avigatapemo): he is endowed with a keen desire in the accomplishment of the training in the future, from day to day. Making a close study of the dhamma (dhammanisantiyaa), by relying on the dhamma. The meaning of this is vipassanaa. Getting rid of desire (icchaavinaye): controlling craving. In solitude (pa.tisallaane): in being alone (ekibhaave). In arousing energy (viiriyaarambhe): by the accomplishment of energy in body and mind (kaayikacetasikassa). In developing mindfulness and discrimination (satinepakke): by mindfulness and the nature of insight. In the realization of right view (di.t.thipa.tivedhe): in the realization of the Path. The Tiika adds as to the accomplishment of the training, that it is fulfilled in its observance since non-observance is completely absent. As to ‘the accomplishment of the training in the future’, he does so without a break (anantara) unto the future, day after day. As to the words ‘making a close study of the dhamma (dhammanisantiyaa), by observing the dhamma, the meaning of this is vipassanaa’, the Tika refers to insight into the characteristics of impermanence etc. of the khandhas of the three planes of citta (of the sensuous plane, the plane of ruupa-jhaana and of aruupa-jhaana). As to control of desire, this is overcoming by repression (vikkhambana), and it is accomplished by the stage of insight that is insight of detachment (viraagaanupassanaa). As to being alone (ekiibhaava), this is accomplishment in solitude as to association with people and departure from defilements. As to arousing energy (viiriyaarambha), this is with the support of the four right efforts (sammappadhaana) which is the development of energy in all respects. Therefore he said the accomplishment of energy in body and mind (kaayikacetasikassa). ------ N: Energy is naama but it can motivate actions through the body. ------ As to developing mindfulness and discrimination (satinepakke), the Tiika adds: the cultivation of sati and pa~n~naa, sati-sampaja~n~na. The arousing of energy is successful by the power of sati-sampaja~n~na. As to the realization of right view (di.t.thipa.tivedhe), by success in the realisation of the truth the right view of the Path (maggasammaadi.t.thi) is accomplished. --------- N:As to ‘making a close study of the dhamma’, close study is here the translation of nisanti, careful attention, and as the commentary elaborates: vipassanaa. The Dhamma pertains to all realities appearing in daiy life and thus, the real study of the Dhamma is achieved through direct understanding of the characteristics of realities that are appearing. It is not theoretical. As we have seen, the Tiika refers to insight into the characteristics of impermanence etc. of the khandhas of the three planes of citta. Naama and ruupa will be understood as impermament, dukkha and anattaa. "The arousing of energy is successful by the power of sati- sampaja~n~na". Energy and sati-sampaja~n~na go together, and this is evident when we consider the four right efforts of the eightfold Path: the effort to avoid akusala dhammas that have not yet arisen, to overcome the akusala dhammas that have arisen, to develop kusala dhammas that have not yet arisen, to maintain kusala dhammas that have arisen, to cause them to increase and reach completion. As to developing kusala dhammas that have not yet arisen, this has been explained as samatha, vipassanaa, the path-consciousness and fruition- consciousness, the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana (Dispeller of Delusion II, Ch 8, 292). Samatha and vipassanaa are developed together, they refer to satipa.t.thaana. As insight develops, also calm develops. Energy, that implies perseverance and courage, develops together with the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Energy is necessary to reach the goal and in this sutta and commentaries it is emphasized. The development of understanding is a gradual process and energy is needed to be aware of realities over and over again, from life to life. The commentary states that the training should be day by day unto the future, without interruption (anantara). Only in this way there can be the realization of right view (di.t.thipa.tivedhe), the accomplishment of the right view of the Path (maggasammaadi.t.thi), and that is when enlightenment has been attained. The right view of the Path will be fully accomplished when aratship has been attained. ------ Pali text of word meanings: Sikkhaasamaadaane tibbacchando hotiiti sikkhattayapuura.ne bahalacchando hoti. aayati~nca sikkhaasamaadaane avigatapemoti anaagate punadivasaadiisupi sikkhaapuura.ne avigatapemena samannaagato hoti. Dhammanisantiyaati dhammanisaamanaaya. Vipassanaayeta.m adhivacana.m. Icchaavinayeti ta.nhaavinayane. Pa.tisallaaneti ekiibhaave. Viiriyaarambheti kaayikacetasikassa viiriyassa puura.ne. Satinepakketi satiya~nceva nepakkabhaave ca. Di.t.thipa.tivedheti maggadassane. Sesa.m sabbattha vuttanayeneva veditabba.m. ****** Nina. #112996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. nilovg Hi Howard, Translations differ. So we may read texts in a different way. I take it that ignorant people cling to what is seen and conceive wrongly, but the Tathagata does not. Op 9-jan-2011, om 19:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't > construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He > doesn't > construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing... > "When sensing... > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an > [object as] > cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an > [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ > (From the Kalaka Sutta) -------- N: We have to read the whole sutta and this is the essence, PTS transl: In Pali: ma~n~nati, which can be translated as conceiving. The Buddha does not conceive wrongly. ------- Nina. #112997 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:51 am Subject: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Sarah, Kevin, Alex and other friends, I think that Kevin had important questions on samatha and these are questions many people have. I like to go into them and give some additions. ------- S: Kevin's discussion with KS and myself (#109607). Kevin had asked why the Buddha ad mentioned jhana "hundreds or thousands" of times if there was no need to talk about jhana. KS replied by asking whether among those who became enlightened, were there more who did so by just developing vipassana or those who developed vipassana and samatha (to jhana levels). The answer is by vipassana alone. ------- N: Yes, there is a Text in S I, which Robert K also mentioned in his forum. Also we know from the Susima sutta and from the Puggala Pa~n~natti that also people who did not develop jhaana attained by dry insight. But apart from this, I find it a relief that there are no rules, that it all depends on the individual's accumulations when or whether he develops jhaana. --------- S: KS had previously mentioned that whilst developing vipassana, there was no need for extra samatha and asked which was better - samatha or vipassana. Kevin had suggested this implied "attachment to vipassana or aversion for lower kusala" and that all kusala was good and a support for wisdom. KS said that just samatha was not understanding realities as not self, just knowing the difference between kusala and akusala. If it were more, then those before the Buddha could have attained the Path. We have to stress vipassana from the beginning. And in terms of "what's better", think of suttas such as the Anathapindika Sutta which stresses how much more valuable a moment of anicca sanna, the understanding of the impermanence of dhammas is, compared to sila, dana, metta and samatha of all kinds. ------- N: All perfections are needed, but each perfection has to be developed together with right understanding of realities, otherwise it is self, self, all the time. But I remember Kevin's words in another post I found very refreshing, that he reminded people to develop right understanding also when going to a retreat. ---------- S: 9. Kevin's comments contd (2nd page of same post). Kevin: ".. Then there can be kusala citta that wants to practice samatha...." KS: "having more kusala in a day - the way to have more samatha." What's the characteristic of sati? Anatta. There is no understanding of anattaness of sati (when there's an idea of wanting to practice samatha). Desire is lobha. -------- N: Some people misunderstand Kh Sujin's words and believe that she is against samatha. We have to carefully consider what she means. She is so concerned about it that people will practise samatha with an idea of self, or with attachment. She said in other context: "KH S: This moment, what can understanding know? If there is no understanding, can there be practising or meditating? " She also said that samatha and vipassana are developed together, that they should not be separated. I am listening to a Thai recording about the four kinds of nutrition, and she speaks about the foulness of the body when eating. When we see foulness, there will be less clinging. Considering this will bring calm. But, as I see it, no rule. It all depends on the citta from moment to moment. ------- S: 10. continuing. Anapanasati, practicing meditation, Vism description, access concentration..... KS: "What for?" Do those who develop samatha know about vitakka, vicara, piti, ekaggata and upekkha from the beginning (not the names or theory)? One knows that without vitakka about that particular object, it's impossible for there to be more kusala factors of jhana. If there is no understanding of vitakka to have that object more and more often by seeing the benefit of that object to condition kusala at that moment. Panna can condition more kusala by vitakka, touching the object. ----- N: Here it is stressed how difficult it is to know the jhaanafactors of vitakka, etc. Not just their names. ------- S: Kevin's comment about (Vism) counting the breaths and so on. KS stressed the importance of panna understanding moments of kusala and akusala. Kevin's comment questioning whether those who "practiced samatha" in the suttas only had kusala moments. KS said that it seems like life is different for those developing samatha and that it's not daily, developing gradually. It doesn't mean we can have samatha of that degree in a short time. It depends on accumulations and takes a long time, aeons, for samatha to develop to that degree. ------- N: Here we see Kh Sujin's concern about people who think that samatha is easy. If one takes for jhaana what is not jhaana it is dangerous. To conclude: I believe that it is essential to understand citta at this moment and I appreciate it that Kh Sujin is reminding us of this time and again. I like her dialogue with Alan: S: Is there depression now? A: No. S: Is there happiness now? A: Yes. S: Does it last? A: No. S: Does it belong to anyone or is it just a dhamma? A:Just a dhamma. S: Same for unhappiness, seeing, visible object - all dhammas. Not my happiness, sadness or thinking that we're used to finding so important. -------- Nina. #112998 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 8-jan-2011, om 17:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > All namas and rupas are, as the Buddha > teaches, when seen correctly, empty/void - unreal, in fact. ------ N: They are empty in as far as they are impermanent, dukkha, anattaa, but this does not mean unreal. We have different ideas of what we mean by reality. Through satipa.t.thaana we can begin to understand what is real, different from concepts or dreams. In a dream it seems that we see people. But we do not see, we just think. When awake there is seeing and it sees what is visible. Seeing arises now, is it real? There is feeling, is it real? The Path is to be developed. Right understanding of what? Of dreams or of realities? > H: As for anger, many instances of mental states are similar and > identified (labeled) as "anger," but it is a convention to do so. > They differ from > each other in intensity and in quality. ----- N: Correct, many shades and degrees of anger, but all of these are the cetasika dosa which dislikes an object. That is its characteristic, it does not matter how we name it, nobody can change its characteristic. ------ > H: Moreover, an instance of what we > call "anger" rises, peaks, and falls as an emotional wave and > without precise > beginning or ending. ------ N: Through insight the arising and falling away can be penetrated very precisely. I like Ken O's insistence that understanding realities has to be very precise, that the dhamma is very precise. ------ > H: It is much like an ocean wave, conventionally thought > of as a definite and discrete thing, but not so in reality. All > that we > think of as real is other than that. Only nibbana is real. ------- N: At this moment nibaana is not experienced. So let us investigate what is experienced at this moment. Then we can come to know what is true and what is false. Seeing people: this is not true. Seeing what is visible: this is true. Thinking of people: the thinking is true, not the people. ------ Nina. #112999 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind vs matter. Materialsm vs Idealism. ptaus1 Dear Nina, Re 112941 Thanks for your reply. Could you please say a bit more about the following: > N: Yes. Not every kind of kusala is a parami. It is a parami when the > aim is having less defilements. Would that be something like how development of metta is explained for example - when panna recognises the value of kusala (like metta) that just fell away - that recognition in itself then becomes the actual development of kusala? Or is this a bit different in the sense that it (panna I guess) is supported by the wish for less defilements? And on another unrelated matter that I thought you'd probably know the answer: has the entire canon been translated in full in some language (I'm guessing Thai or Burmese)? So, I mean the translation of the 3 pitakas, and all the commentaries and subcommentaries. Thanks. Best wishes pt