#114400 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) Hi Robert E (113680) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: So you're happy with the idea of kamma and vipaka as long as it works the way you think it should ;-)). > > [RE:] No, I think that's a bit of a straw man. I don't want kamma to conform to my expectations, but if there's a mysterious and not-so-obvious process at play, and that is fine, it requires a better explanation than just the obvious. I think that is a fair expectation. > =============== J: Sorry, but it still seems to me that you're saying that the explanation should conform to your expectations (in this case, 'better than just the obvious'). ;-)) > =============== [RE:] It is just like commentaries that say that an explanation of body parts is really about the Four Great Elements. I would need to know how that conclusion was drawn before I could immediately understand that to be the case. Do you think that is unreasonable? > =============== J: Nobody is suggesting unquestioning acceptance of the commentaries. But a useful first step is always to find out what the commentaries say, because the explanation/interpretation they given is, in my experience, always both internally consistent and consistent with the sutta texts (even though not always the expected interpretation). Also, the commentaries have been the subject of serious study within the Theravada community since they were compiled. The idea that they have just come to be 'exposed' as a rogue interpretation of the original teachings by modern-day followers (who also happen to have discovered meditation and retreats as an essential part of the teachings) is one I find inherently unlikely ;-)) > =============== > > J: You seem to be implying that the results of a given action should be experienced within the same lifetime as the action, so as to make it more easily verifiable, perhaps ;-)) > > [RE:] No and yes. I don't imply that vipaka *should* be experienced within the same lifetime as the action, but if it is delayed for such a long time and there are all sorts of accumulations lying in wait for multiple lifetimes, I'd like to know how that works so that it is understandable. And I don't mean a blow-by-blow explanation, but just what puts that principle into play in a general way. > =============== J: I don't quite see why the time lag between cause and result should be an issue. Perhaps you could say a little more about your concern on this point. > =============== [RE:] I also *do* think, and it is obviously true, that this situation makes the relationship of kamma to vipaka less verifiable. If you are saying that anyone who follows the Dhamma shouldn't need any verification, I would say that sort of defeats the Buddha's call to "come and see" for oneself. > =============== J: The verification does not, as far as I know, come from being able to 'see' a given (present) result as having had a specific (past) cause. At least I've never seen that suggested. (True, it is said that those with the power of the 'divine eye' do see beings being reborn according to their past deeds, but this is not one of the vipassana nanas that are attained as mundane insight is developed.) > =============== > [RE:] I think it can be rather overly convenient for those who subscribe to a certain philosophy to be able to say "Well we'll never be able to prove or disprove it since we won't see the results for a few million years. Sorry about that!" An explanation of why that is so *does* go a longer way towards filling that gap, if it makes sense of the long delays. > =============== J: Sorry, but I'm missing your point regarding the significance of the period of time between cause and result. Confirmation of the law of kamma and vipaka does not require seeing both a moment of cause and the result of that moment of cause within a single lifetime. In any event, how would it be known that a given moment of experiencing a sense-object was the result of a particular previous moment of intention? > =============== > > J: Not really delayed, just not as immediate as you think it should be. > > [RE:] No, again a bit of a straw man. I would say: "not immediately enough to verify the system during this lifetime." Again, if the explanation is adequate to the subject matter, that may fill the gap, but *something* has to justify a system that does not reveal its outcomes in any manner that we can easily follow. Again, do you think that is an unreasonable expectation? > =============== J: Again, it seems you're saying that if it can't be verified right now, or if it can't be easily followed, it can't possibly be the way things actually are. As for whether your expectation is a reasonable one or not, I'd say I don't see why individual expectations should come into it. One of the oft-repeated points about the Dhamma made by the Buddha was its complexity and depth. > =============== > [RE:] Yes, well I can accept the idea that not *everything* is immediately experienceable by *everyone,* but if we cannot discern dhammas directly at the present time, and we are told that hardly anyone can, and we cannot see the results of kamma, conditions, tendencies or accumulations perhaps for thousands or millions of lifetimes from now, then what at the moment is there to "come and see?" Can we come and see anything? What is Buddha calling us to get off our worldling complacencies and "come see" right now? > =============== J: I gave one example in my earlier response in this thread ("that the object experienced through a sense-doors is a dhamma unique to that sense-door."). Another would be that what are called dhammas are clearly a distinct class of thing. The problem is that the less developed understanding there is, the less of the teachings will be immediately verifiable by direct experience, so we should not expect too much in this regard ;-)) > =============== > [RE:] My explanation is that he is not asking us to wait for thousands of lifetimes to see ultimate realities directly, but that he is inviting us to experience the fruits of practice *now* by engaging the teachings in a very active way. > =============== J: Nobody is suggesting that there cannot now be the direct seeing of dhammas (at a level appropriate to one's level of developed understanding). As regards 'experiencing the fruits of practice *now*', those fruits are just that seeing of dhammas directly or, put differently, a better understanding of dhammas as they actually are. Jon #114401 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:04 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was, The clansman ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113681) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: As you see it, would someone taking that instruction to heart and practising the doing of specific things be likley to have more kusala than aksuala during the course of that practice? > > [RE:] In my opinion, if the person took the Buddha seriously and believed what he said, and followed his instructions on that basis, rather than with a will to personally achieve goal a or b under his own plan of control, there would be a lot of kusala involved. With faith in the Buddha's teachings, he would patiently engage the practice and experience the joy of being on the path. > =============== J: It's not a matter of 'belief in what the Buddha said' or 'faith in the Buddha's teachings', if by that is meant conventional belief or faith. It's a matter of whether the teachings have been correctly understood/interpreted. Without that, any practice engaged in is going to be wrong practice. So as regards any specific things done, it's the accompanying mental states that are crucial. > =============== > > J: Neither did the Buddha ever say "Do this form of practice and it'll bring you lots of kusala" ;-)) > > [RE:] Not true. "Strive unceasingly," "apply yourself with great energy" just as I have done - paraphrasing what both I and Alex have recently quoted, and "you will soon experience the fruits of the practice." If you go back a few posts to Alex's last few posts, you'll see the exact words that add up to the above. Buddha did talk that way quite a bit. > =============== J: So on your reading it's a matter of doing specific actions with a belief that what's being done is the form of 'practice' taught by the Buddha? To my way of thinking, that would be a recipe for wrong practice leading to further wrong view. > =============== > > J: Obviously Right Effort is, by definition, effort that is kusala. So when the Buddha spoke about Right Effort, he would not have been including any effort that was akusala. > > [RE:] That wasn't my point. My point was not that it was kusala, which is great, but that such conventional "action and effort" was a legitimate part of the path. To put it another way, such worldly effort and intention is kusala, which one would think otherwise about if one thought that only discerning dhammas and understanding Dhamma was the path. > =============== J: Yes, worldly effort and intention may be kusala. But this has nothing to do with the path factors, which are the mental factors that accompany a moment of insight. > =============== > > We agree on that point. Where we differ is the extent to which kusala can be induced to arise by virtue of having the intention that it should. > > [RE:] So to what extent is that possible, and do you agree that Buddha included that "action" part of the path in the Noble 8fold path, as listed above? > =============== J: The "action" part of the Noble Eightfold Path are certain mental factors that abstain from unwholesome conduct. Not to be confused with conventional, worldly actions. > =============== > > J: I'm thinking of, for example, the teaching that all dhammas are anatta. > > [RE:] I don't see any problem with doing stuff and understanding all that is done as anatta at the same time. This idea that action and anatta are like oil and water has a logic that I don't understand. It seems like a philosophical predisposition that any doing is automatically self-view. I don't believe that to be the case. > =============== J: No, I'm not saying that intentional action has to be with an idea of self. That's obviously not the case. What I was alluding to is the idea that kusala mindstates can be made to arise by devoting time, effort or attention to the development of kusala. Such an idea is , I believe, incompatible with the teaching on anatta. Having the intention to do X or Y, where X and Y are any conventional, worldly activity, does not necessarily involve an idea or self. But having the idea that one can be happy, or be compassionate, or be wise, etc by virtue of any particular practice is a different matter altogether. That does involve the idea that particular dhammas can be made or induced to arise by dint of deliberately creating the 'right conditions'. Jon #114402 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified Hi Ken O (113731) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > > >J: Right, but everyone has cetana and chanda, they are not factors that need to > >be developed per se. What needs to be developed are the kusala factors without > >which cetana and chanda cannot themselves be kusala. > > KO: You need them to read books and listen to dhamma. without them, panna is > just undersanding characteristiscs. I forget to say also, you need viriya as > well because they are the energy or effort. Without, a purpose, a will and > effort, i wonder how one listen. What need to be developed also depends on the > dhamma that supports it. Once cannot go read books without chanda likewsie > without chanda one cannot do akusala as well > =============== J: Yes, I've agreed that chanda and viriya are necessary. But the fact is that these mental factors arise with most moments of consciousness anyway. When the Buddha speaks about developing these factors, he means developing them as arising with panna/insight. In all other contexts, they are already present > =============== > >J: Again, it's not the intention that makes the difference but the kusala or > >akusala factors that the intention arises together with. > > KO: that is what I said, you just paraphase me, So does what is the > intentional behaviour of meditaiton and reading books. why formal meditation is > aksual while reading is not akusala? this you have yet answered >> =============== J: I've never said that formal meditation is akusala but that reading is not. Reading is just another conventional activity, and as such it can be done with kusala or akusala (or mixed) mindstates. Normally, it will be mostly (or wholly) with akusala mindstates. If the text being read is, say, a sutta, this does not necessarily make the accompanying mindstates any more kusala than would otherwise be the case. Hopefully that would not in fact be so. But let's not forget the possibility, for example, of wrongly understanding the sutta and thus actually developing wrong view as a result of the reading. What needs to be understood is that the factor that is a factor for the development of the path is not *reading Dhamma books* or any other conventional activity, but is *hearing the Dhamma appropriately explained (i.e., explained appropriately for our particular level of understanding/wrong view) and grasping its meaning*. And hearing and understanding the Dhamma means hearing and understanding (at a basic level) the teaching about the development of the path leading to release from samsara. This kind of hearing cannot be made to occur by reading a chosen book, listening to a recording, attending a discussion, etc. As regards formal meditation, it depends on what you mean by that. But to my understanding, the conditions for understanding at some level the true nature of a presently arising dhamma (which on a momentary basis constitutes the development of the path) do not include choosing an object to focus on or, expressed differently, choosing to focus on attending to whatever object arises. Jon #114403 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body jonoabb Hi Ken O (113732) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > > J: I'd like to go back to an earlier point which I don't think you've expressed a > >specific view on yet. I said that in the suttas references to anicca, dukkha and > > > >anattaa invariably (or almost) appear in the context of dhammas and not of > >conventional activities or other concepts. Any comment on this? > > KO; ohh pse read the comy to distraction of thoughts where comy use > temperorance of bowls to understand impermanence or ownerless, You could > always search it in the access to sight. > =============== J: I'd be happy to comment if you could quote the commentary passage you have in mind. Thanks. > =============== > > J: To my understanding, if the characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anattaa are to be > >known, it must be through an awareness of dhammas, not concepts (conventional objects). > > > KO: you have yet tell me where did you get this from, I dont see this in the > comy. Since here we talk about comy, so why dont you give me something to think > about and not made such claims that panna could only take dhamma as object. I > never saw in the comy that panna cannot take concepts and I only heard this here > and not in the Abhidhamma texts or comy > =============== J: As already explained, my starting point is that if the characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anattaa are to be known, it must be through an awareness of dhammas, not of concepts (conventional objects). This is based on the observation that when the 3 characteristics appear in the suttas, it is (almost) invariably in the context of talk about dhammas. See for example the sutta passages cited in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary in the entry on 'Ti-lakkhana' (below). For further support, see the Vism, beginning of Part III (Panna), where it talks about the khandhas as being the field for the development of panna. Jon *********************************** A. "Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still remains a firm condition, an immutable fact and fixed law: that all formations are impermanent, that all formations are subject to suffering, that everything is without a self'' (A. III, 134). B. "What do you think, o monks: Is corporeality (rūpa) permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. - Are feeling (vedanā), perception (sa髑ā), mental formations (sankhāra) and consciousness (vi髑āna), permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. "But that which is impermanent, is it something pleasant or painful? - It is painful, o Venerable One. "But, of what is impermanent, painful and subject to change, could it be rightly said, 'This belongs to me, this am I, this is my ego'? - No, Venerable One. "Therefore, whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, of all these things one should understand, according to reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I not, this is not my ego' " (S. XXII, 59). C. "In one who understands eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and all the remaining formations as impermanent, painful and not-self, in him the fetters (samyojana) are dissolved" (S. XXXV, 53). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/ti_lakkhana.htm *********************************** #114404 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:16 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses jonoabb Hi Alex (113734) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > >J: The term 'property' in the passage is a translation of the Pali >'dhatu' > >('element'). Ven. Sariputta is here referring to the dhammas that comprise >the 5 khandhas. > > > > So when it speaks of discerning the earth property it's referring to >awareness of/insight into the characteristic of hardness, rather than >the >conventional objects of hair, nails, teeth, body etc which are >given as >illustrations of that characteristic. > > [AT:] But the sutta clearly includes: > "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & sustained: This is called the internal earth property(ajjhattikā paṭhavīdhātu)." > > While I agree that "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth," etc, have certain degree of hardness/softness, etc - they are also valid objects of contemplation. > =============== J: Yes, the parts of the body are valid objects of contemplation in the development of samatha. As regards the development of insight, however, it is the 'paṭhavīdhātu' mentioned in the sutta that is the object. > =============== > [AT:] Furthermore, if we limit definition of paṭhavīdhātu only to "hardness/softness, heaviness/lightness, etc" then it will run into difficulty with: > > How can there be internal vs external(ajjhattikā siyā bāhirā) paṭhavīdhātu? Hardness, etc, is felt only internally! > =============== J: The external objects mentioned in these passages refer, according to the commentaries, to the dhammas of others (which are observable). In that regard, hardness is no different from, say, sound or dosa. > =============== > Moreover, internal earth element is also defined as: "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & sustained: ". > > Why did Ven. Sariputta include those conventional objects? Because they are useful for the goal, elimination of ALL craving and underlying ignorance. > =============== J: I would say the reason those conventional objects were mentioned is because that is what the particular listeners were familiar with as object of (samatha) development, and the purpose was to indicate that in addition to the development of samatha already being undertaken there was the possibility of the development of insight, albeit with dhatus as object rather than the accustomed parts of the body. Jon #114405 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 9:36 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, > J: Yes, the parts of the body are valid objects of contemplation >in >the development of samatha. As regards the development of >insight, >however, it is the 'paṭhavīdhātu' >mentioned in the >sutta that is the object. What is wrong with properly following instructions (such as 32 bodyparts) found in Satipatthana sutta? Why can't they be used for insight purposes? They were mentioned in the sutta. Of course any/all teachings should be used for insight. No disagreement here, even those who teach "samatha" . IMHO, the Buddha's teaching is about eliminating all craving and ignorance. Sometimes rough, literal and "conceptual" objects (such as corpses, 32 bodyparts, etc) are more effective than clean abstract qualities that we do not perceive (and may never be able to). With metta, Alex #114406 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:28 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa単単aa epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > There can obviously be reading of suttas with wrong view of any strength, or discussing with a lot of mana, and so on. > > Development of the path only comes if, firstly, the teachings have been heard/read about in a way that is appropriate to one's level of understanding, and, following that, if what has been heard (and properly understood) is reflected upon, and so forth. > > None of this can be achieved by the doing of any particular activity. If one does happen to hear the teachings explained in a way that is meaningful for one's present level of understanding, it's the result of past kamma rather than, for example, deciding to listen to a particular recording, attend a discussion or read a book. The doing of the specific activity is not the determining factor (despite the fact that the hearing of the teachings will inevitably involve some or all such intentional activities). That's a damned good explanation, Jon. I see by this that the "kamma system" is responsible for an awful lot of what takes place. Well I guess a lot hinges on one's faith that this is the way things work, that things happen as the result of past-life kusala which lead to greater development of the path. Given that past kusala kamma has led to present-life events that cause the path to become more accessible, how is future kusala generated? I mean, what is taking place now that will lead to auspicious developments in future lives? We must be doing something or generating kusala in some way, shape or form now that is not the result of past kamma; otherwise it would be vipaka and would lead to future kusala. Am I right in how I am describing this? > > =============== > > RE: If you look at what is in front of you as visible object then you are going towards more understanding. The fact that it is called "monitor" in its accumulated apprehension doesn't take away from the visible object being present at any moment. Sure, if you mistake the concept for the object then you don't have understanding. If you separate them and understand the rupa and that which apprehends it, then you have more understanding. > > =============== > > J: The dhamma that is visible object does not appear by looking at (that is to say, focusing on) a conventional object that is within the present field of vision. Such a practice confuses, in my view, the conventional with the absolute. It assumes that conventional objects are composed of, or can be broken down into, paramattha dhammas. But that's not the case. They are of a different register altogether. So visible object does not "look like" that property which it represents in the conceptual object *at all?* In other words, my touching of the computer and feeling that "computer is a hard object" has *no relation* to paramatha tactile object "hardness" that is actually being experienced? When you say it is of another register altogether, the way I would interpret that analogously would be like a microscopic view of matter revealing space, individual fibers, etc. rather than a "solid table." In the analogy, the microscope gives me a totally different view of the object, and breaks it down into much smaller units, but those units still do represent the "reality of" the table that I ordinarily see. Yet the knowledge of what the table actually consists of is much more specific through the microscope. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114407 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:42 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Robert E, > > -------- > <. . .> > > > KH: There is nothing that continues on, and so right understanding has to be now or never. > > > What about the accumulations that are passed on from citta to citta? Do they not "continue on?" Is there any chance that you will answer this question sometime in this lifetime, Ken? :-) > -------- > > KH: Nothing continues on; each citta is entirely new. It *inherits* its nature from the long line of cittas that went before. That is not especially convincing. The idea of something being "totally new" means it is a fresh, unique creation unto itself, not a copy of something else. If it gets its nature through inheritance, where do you think that inheritance [from the long line of cittas] comes from? It comes from the long line of past moments during which those cittas rose and fell. In other words, quite contrary to being completely new, it is completely regurgitated from the past. Rather than being "the present moment," it is the "present compendium of countless past moments." It is totally dependent on time and continuity and has no "total newness" of any meaningful kind. There is only one way in which the moment is totally new, and that is in the sense that it is a totally new experience for the new citta, but this should not be confused with the nature of the citta itself and what constitutes it, which has come from all those other cittas. To talk about a single-moment universe that exists all by itself is contradicted by the very mechanism that gives it life. You can't say "it inherits its nature" from the past, and say that "nothing continues on" at the same time. The inherited nature is not lost or dropped; it indeed does continue on; you are saying so itself. What do you think an inheritance is? > ------------------------ > <. . .> > >> KH: The sutta is telling us that right effort (for crossing the flood) is simply any effort that arises with right understanding. > > > RE: What in the sutta suggests that message to you, Ken H.? Is there something in the sutta which you feel relays that specific message, or is it just your own sense of what is right that you are imposing on the sutta? > ------------------------ > > KH: A bit of both: it is partly what I remember from previous DSG discussions on this sutta, and partly my understanding of the Dhamma as a whole. > > I think the sutta is basically saying that the Middle Way is neither of the two extremes. "Striving" and "standing still" are symbolic of annihilationism and eternalism (I can never remember which stands for which), and so the sutta is similar to several other suttas on the same topic. > > Other parts of the Tipitaka describe effort of all kinds in identical terms. They are inherently different, of course, but apart from that they all fit same description (energy, force, etc). The only way of describing kusala effort differently from akusala effort is to point out that one arises with kusala citta and the other with akusala citta. Similarly with right effort and wrong effort, one arises with right understanding and the other with wrong understanding. That's a very general way of describing something. It does not make much sense of its actuality, nor explain anything useful. I can say "all good is kusala" and I am just being redundant, I'm really not saying anything at all. > ------------ > <. . .> > >> KH: To be a potential jhana student, a person first has to know kusala from > > only a one in a hundred or a thousand will ever attain the first > jhana. > > > RE: I would appreciate the location of that discussion in the Vism, if you know where it is. I did not see any such statistical analysis in the anapanasati section of the Vism when I read the discussion. > > > However, I appreciate the above discussion - it does give a clear view of what you think are the criteria/conditions for approaching jhana and the subject of breathing. > ------------- > > KH: I used to have a reference for the statistical bit, but can't find it at the moment. It continues in the same vein for the first to second jhana etc., saying that only "one in a hundred or a thousand" will make the cut each time. And so by the time you get to jhana mastery (which is what you would need in order to use jhana as a vehicle for vipassana) the odds against making it are extremely long. > > -------------------- > > RE: I would ask you this - I'm still waiting for an answer from several people, but I don't think I've ever gotten one - why does the anapanasati sutta open with a discussion of many, many beginning monks being taught anapanasati, and many beginning monks being trained by a variety of other more accomplished monks. In other words, a big 'ol meditation retreat where everyone is practicing and learning anapanasati, if it is so amazingly rare? > -------------------- > > KH: I suppose it was an amazingly rare event. :-) Hmpf. > ---------------------------- > > RE: Do you think that all the one-in-a-millions were gathered there at that time, and all the "beginners" were already accomplished samatha practitioners? > ---------------------------- > > KH: Yes, I think so, but our appreciation of the one-in-a-million statistic has to take into account the long time that had elapsed since the previous Buddha-sasana. There would have been a long queue of great sages with the necessary kamma to be reborn in human form, in India, at the same time as the Buddha. Uh huh, I see. Well, no sense in pining for those times. I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten a ticket for birth there anyway. I'm destined to hang around here and argue about new-age Buddhism. > --------------------------------------------- > > RE: One doesn't get the impression that > this was the only time and place where such a gathering was held. > > > Also, why were all these beginners being taught basic breathing meditation? Are you saying that this is such an advanced object that the "beginners" at breathing were actually already great adepts at meditation with other objects? It seems very unlikely to me, and is not stated or implied in the sutta. > ---------------------------------------------- > > KH: I could make a guess at the answer, but don't want to add to the confusion. Ask someone else. :-) I already used up the question on you. I'll just wait until you feel like answering. > ------------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: The only real practices that ever exist are dhammas performing their functions. > > >> Kusala comes first, breath counting comes second. So when there is > breath-counting with kusala concentration, it is without any desire for attaining, or even any idea of attaining. It is just a part of that jhana student's everyday lifestyle. > > > RE: But indeed you are saying that once kusala is known and understood, one is able to practice without self-view. Well that is interesting, even if it is remote for most of us. > ------------------------- > > KH: Sometimes it seems that way. A jhana master, for example, can enter and leave jhana "at will" and vipassana practitioners are sometimes said to deliberately choose one kind of dhamma-arammana in preference to another. But these things are always outward appearances only. In reality everything is determined entirely by conditions, and ariyans have no more control over how they will practice, or over which type of dhamma will arise next, than you or I have. Understandable. > ---------------------------------- > <. . .> > > > KH: The factors that actually lead to enlightenment are association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely considering, and directly understanding the characteristics of a conditioned dhamma. > > > RE: Then why did Buddha deal so extensively with other path factors, and why are they even included in the 8 arms of the path? Why does he deal so extensively with meditation, jhana, anapanasati and even satipatthana? Why not just say that the arising of the momentary dhamma is the entire path, and that none of these other things matter? There doesn't seem to be any reason to discuss these > things at all if you are correct. > ----------------------------------- > > KH: That's right: if we could understand the present moment the way it really is we would have no need for anything more. > > The need to control and the need to "do something" come from ignorance. Doesn't explain where all those teachings come from, however. Why are they there? Buddha wasn't deluded, but he taught that way. So why? > ------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: partly right understanding and partly ritualistic > looking and lying in wait. But that's not possible. Right understanding and rituals are incompatible, they can't go together. > > > RE: Your way of describing this - looking and lying in wait - is quite prejudiced against the actuality of meditation, which is not "looking and lying in wait," > ------------------- > > KH: I was trying to be fair and unprejudiced. Many times, when it has been pointed out that Dhammas are too quick to catch (by the time you can decide to catch them they have already gone), meditators at DSG have replied, "But if the mind has been quietened, and freed from thoughts etc., then it will be ready in advance." > > They have also been known to say, "Just look!" So I think my summation "looking and lying in wait" was a fair one. I don't. Your evidence is spare, and your point of view is predetermined. But I appreciate the conversation in any case. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114408 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:46 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa単単aa epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113626) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > > =============== > > > > [RE:] That's one way of looking at it. There's nothing there to indicate that the person is already skilled in samatha. When the anapanasati sutta says that "He breathes in, calming bodily fabrications," anyone can do that. They may calm down a little or a lot, but it's not an advanced instruction. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: The first part of the Anapanasati Sutta describes the persons present; from memory, they were all monks of some considerable attainment. > > > > [RE:] As i mentioned to you before, the intro to the sutta mentions the opposite - that there were advanced monks, some of whom were training 10 or more monks, and others who were training 30 or 40 monks. These monks being trained are described as "new monks," ie, beginners. The place was rank with beginners studying anapanasati under the guidance of the more experienced monks. Here's the passage from the anapanasati sutta: > > > > "On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions." > > =============== > > J: Here is the list of monks present at the giving of the Anapanasati Sutta, as set out by the Buddha at the beginning of the sutta: > > "In this community of monks there are: > - monks who are arahants ... > - monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes] ... > - monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners ... > - monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners ... > - monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path ... > - monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy ... > - monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing." > [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html] > > No beginners there! Depends on what you mean by "remain devoted to." Those last categories get increasingly dumber. I remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out-brething, but that doesn't mean I'm any good at it! :-) > In any event, the new monks being instructed were, it says, "discerning grand, successive distinctions". So while they may have been new, they were certainly not beginners. I think it is saying that happened after they were instructed by the hot-shots in attendance, not previous to the meeting. > > =============== > > [RE:] It is mentioned that the monk should get rid of the "minor impediments" beforehand, that is true, but in terms of breathing practice it is step 1. > > =============== > > J: Yes, but getting rid of the "minor impediments" is itself accomplished by the development of samatha to a certain level (how otherwise are they to be got rid of?). Well we might agree, "to a certain level." Wonder what that level is... Maybe not as high a bar as previously thought. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114409 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:53 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa単単aa epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113626) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > > > [J:] The purpose is to indicate how, for those experienced and skilled in samatha bhavana based on the foulness of the body, vipassana bhavana is something else yet again. > > > > > > > > [RE:] Don't quite get this. Can you re-quote the relevant stanza and explain a bit more? > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Er, will have to go back and find your original post. Will get back to you after I've dug it up. You have a short respite on this one ;-)) > > > > [RE:] Well thank the bodhisattas. I must be experiencing a brief moment of positive vipaka. Quite rare these days. Thank you as well. > > =============== > > J: ;-)) > > Rather than search back through the old posts, let me take a passage from the Anapanasati Sutta that I think raises a similar interpretation issue. > > The main part of the sutta begins as follows: > > ********************* > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? > > "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.[1] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. ... > "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' ... > ********************* > [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html] > > The question is as to which of the following (or some other) the Buddha is saying: > > A. A person who sees the value in developing insight should start with mindfulness of breathing, which in turn starts with going to the wilderness and sitting cross-legged, etc. The practice of this mindfulness of breathing will assist in the development of insight, especially when it has been developed to a high degree. > > B. A person who is already adept at mindfulness of breathing may, while continuing with that development, also develop insight to the highest levels (with the possibility that if and when enlightenment is attained it will be with jhana as basis). > > You I think would opt for A above (or some variation of it), while I would see B as being the orthodox Theravadan interpretation. > > So going back to the comment in my earlier post where I said, in the context of the development of samatha with foulness of the body as object ... > > "The purpose is to indicate how, for those experienced and skilled in samatha bhavana based on the foulness of the body, vipassana bhavana is something else yet again." > > ... the purpose of the teaching in both contexts, in my view, is not to instruct in the development of samatha per se, but to explain how, for those already well advanced in samatha, that development and the development of insight may proceed in tandem. > > Hoping this clarifies (and makes sense). Yes, whether or not we can agree on which interpretation is correct, I think you have clarified both points of view very well. The question is which one makes more sense, and makes sense of the history of Buddhist practice as well, including at the time of the Buddha. I guess one's framework for right view will create the template for understanding that. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114410 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:58 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Modes of Materiality epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113628) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > But anyway, here's a quote from Dhp XVIII: > > "Make an island for yourself! Strive hard and become wise!" > > =============== > > J: Yes, but the question is how the statement/exhortation "Strive hard and become wise!" is to be understood. > > You said in an earlier post, about expressions like these, that "we don't have to wonder too strenuously what he meant. It's obvious in such a case." > > I wonder if that's really so. If the statement is indeed suggesting the undertaking of an activity, then we'd need to identify which particular activity that would be. Yet none is indicated, let alone mentioned. > > To me it seems more like an exhortation to develop kusala of a particular (high) level, without going into detail as to what that may involve. This may be because the particular audience being addressed already knew exactly what was being referred to. > > > =============== > > And another from DN 16: the Parinibbana Sutta: > > ""Impermanent, subject to change, are component things. Strive on with heedfulness!" Those were the Buddha's last words - an instruction, an admonition, a command. > > =============== > > J: Yes, an exhortation; but, as above, with no special reference to the doing of any kind of action. > > > =============== > > > > [RE:] I don't think "Breathing in long, he is aware that he is breathing in long" requires a deep reinterpretation. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Well for a start, without the context of the sutta as a whole, there could be no chance of having any idea what was meant by that passage. > > > > [RE:] Haven't we both read it? What do you think the context is? It is the preliminary, first instruction in the sutta that is involved with the actual exercise of being mindfully aware of the breath. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure how you read an *instruction* into the words "Breathing in long, he is aware that he is breathing in long". An interpretation to that effect seems to be doing other than taking the words at their face value ;-)) > > In any event, there's no indication of what is meant by "aware that he is breathing in long", or what is so special about that. Presumably it means something more than it's face-value meaning. > > > =============== > > [RE:] Identifying long from sort breaths is a gross and basic practice and would be a way of training someone for more subtle practices, as actually does take place in the sutta. It's the first instruction in mindfulness of breathing practice, for beginners. > > =============== > > J: So you're saying that step 1 is identifying long breaths from short ones in the conventional manner? Hmm, that's not something I'd have thought the very exalted audience of the Anapanasati Sutta needed to be instructed on ;-)) Well you take the instruction out of context when it suits your interpretation, then say it should be considered as a whole at other times. In this case, it's not that this particular procedure needs to be explained. Buddha is reviewing the entire sequence and how it hangs together in order. It is a systematic summary of the practice, and makes perfect sense as such. Something like awareness of a long breath may sound silly to a non-meditator, but to be aware of simple things as they are, and as they are taking place, is in fact mindfulness in a nutshell. And it is not so easy. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114411 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 4:05 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Modes of Materiality epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > [RE:] And what status does that position have for you, once identified? That is my question. > > =============== > > J: Something like a working hypothesis. Fair enough. > > =============== > > > J: Yes, and for this reason there are then the sub-commentaries to explain the commentaries. You see, they thought of everything ;-)) > > > > [RE:] Yes, I see it's "commentaries all the way down." No problem with infinite regress there. ;-) > > =============== > > J: Ahh, infinite regress. Another of those western philosophical concepts that folks who don't like the commentaries are fond of throwing around ;-)) Not really. No ovebearing Western concept involved - just pointing out that if commentary backs up other commentary, that is not much of a reality check - no outside arbitrator so to speak. Is it unfair of me to want that? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114412 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:10 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113662) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: In the context of kamma (as cause) and vipaka (as result), both are mental dhammas. Kamma is the mental factor of cetana, while vipaka is the consciousness that experiences an object through one of the sense-doors. > > > > [RE:] Well that's interesting. I'm not really clear about it, but my understanding is that kamma patha is dependent on the *action being completed.* For instance, if someone intends to murder someone else, AND they carry out the action of killing, BUT they fail to complete the murder successfully, kamma patha has not been completed, and the kamma involved doesn't carry the full weight that the completed action would. Would you disagree with this? [I think I got this from Sarah, so you can let me know who wins this dispute. :-)) ] > > =============== > > J: Sounds OK to me. There is still result, but not of the same weight there would have been had the deed been fully performed. Exactly; thanks for that. > > =============== > > [RE:] As for vipaka, that's a uniquely dhamma-oriented translation of vipaka. Again, I'm not an expert, but my understanding and I think most people's understanding is that vipaka is the result that the person encounters as the result of their kamma. If kamma is intention, and the vipaka is the resultant experience, then of course that involves the cittas that experience the "unpleasant or pleasant sensory objects" are involved, but whatever the concrete aspects of the experience are, such as being born in unpleasant circumstances, are also part of the vipaka, are they not? > > =============== > > J: Yes, being born in unpleasant circumstances, etc, is the result of kamma performed in previous lives. Strictly speaking it's not vipaka, although as you say is generally referred to as such. > > But I think it's worth knowing, and reminding ourselves, that in the absolute sense vipaka is the *experiencing* of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the sense-doors. > > For instance, a person could be born into very favourable circumstances but still have a lot of bodily pain, or born poor but experience good health and comfortable surroundings for his whole life. Thanks, that is clear. Is there a special reason why certain kammas can lead to a mixed result, such as pleasant vipaka within unpleasant surroundings, or vice versa? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114413 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:25 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113649) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: I think you've misunderstood my comment. I was not dismissing the passages you were referring to, but saying that there was more to them that you were suggesting. > > > > [RE:] Just "more to," or "different?" The question is not whether one can also get lessons on namas/rupas in such a passage, but whether you include or dismiss the conventional teaching that is being explicitly given. I think it's easy to mistake the Buddha's added comments on dhammas, which he probably was trying to point out whenever possible, as a summary or statement that dhammas is *all* he is talking about, when the body of a given sutta is about a conventional area. > > =============== > > J: Well the commentaries give a different explanation, so are you sure the matter is as explicit as you think it is? I think that the commentators seem to [in my limited scope of experience] take an Abhidhamma point of view towards sutta. That does not totally convince me that this is the only level of interpretation that is valid, although it may also be valid and perhaps ultimately of great importance. However, it does not settle the question of whether the Buddha's explicit conventional teachings, which in fact he gave to actual people who he wanted to hear what he was saying at the time, are not also valid in their own right and have something quite important to offer - that is, a guide to world-bound worldlings as to how to live their lives and practice in a way that will lead them to the development of path factors by a conventional route. Sure, it may be slow, it may be of a less precise level of reality, and it may be a stepping-stone or a raft, but it may also be extremely important to follow for those of us who do not yet "switch at will" from the conventional to the paramatha view from moment to moment. > But in any event, if the development of the path does indeed involve the development of awareness of both conventional objects and dhammas, then there must be in the suttas or texts an explanation of, or at least some reference to, the difference between the two (otherwise there'd be no point in making the distinction), and I'm not aware of any such explanation or reference. My reading of the suttas, again limited though it is, is that the Buddha felt quite free to switch back and forth from the conventional to the paramatha view and that he did so, by all appearances, purposely without announcing that he was doing it. If that is the case, then why would he do this? I think it is because the conjunction of the two levels of teaching worked better together when addressing the person in a seamless, easy-to-absorb way. If you talked about a corpse and how to regard it to develop dispassion for the [conventional] body, and then at the end snuck in some statements that say that "after all this is also a view of specific rupas which one can detach from" or something to that effect, the person listening can get both benefits, both teachings, without being confused about where the paramatha view comes in, if it is connected to something they [we] can understand from our version of direct experience. So I think they go together quite well, if you don't insist on extracting the paramatha and discarding the rest. Why not let the Buddha teach the way he chose to? :-) It seems quite skillful to me. :-) For those of us ready to read the precise way in which reality is constructed, we can go to Abhidhamma and commentary, but the usefulness of the suttas in their given form should not be thrown away, I don't think. > > =============== > > [RE:] The commentary is skillfully and seamlessly moving between the paramatha and conventional views of reality to show the interdependence of the two. ... > > > > But I believe that what happens, and what the commentary is acknowledging very clearly in my view, is that it is because of the nature of dhammas that are *experienced but experienced indirectly* by deluded conceptually-influenced perception that we get a kind of indirect result as regards the conventional objects. ... > > > Deluded experience "B" echoes actual experience "A." Deluded consciousness will see the body as a solid object that is undergoing changes, but what is actually happening is that particular dhammas are arising or not arising, and because of this, certain other qualities that are dependent on them are arising or failing to arise. ... > > > > The commentator seems to acknowledge the relation of this dual reality, and the importance that Buddha placed on the fact that this changing of the conventional body cannot be changed and that it must come to resemble the corpse. In doing so, there seems to be an acknowledgment that this understanding of the inevitability of the falling away and decay of one's own body is a mundane insight that is a part of the path, rather than only the view of dhammas being the path. > > =============== > > J: Firstly, full marks for developing a case ;-)) Ha ha, thanks! ;-) > However, the problem with an interpretation to this effect is that what you refer to as our "deluded experience" of the world is going to be examined with the same deluded mind. It is only the arising of moments of insight with dhammas as object that can counter ignorance and wrong view. I understand your view of this. I think there is only one mind, be it a collection of cittas or whatever, and that moments of understanding can arise in any kind of mud. [ see: Lotuses. :-) ] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114414 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:33 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The commentarial position, as I understand it, is that the reference to conventional states (birth, illness, aging and death) is in fact, and is to be understood as, a reference to the underlying dhammas, although the statement also of course holds true at the conventional level. Just focusing on this for now, which I think is a good point to look at. I think your statement above manages to make both your and my general point at the same time: 1. References to conventional states such as birth and death are shorthand for the underlying dhammas that take place in those areas. 2. Even though this is so, the statements also apply on the conventional level, and so may be understood that way by worldlings. I think the point of contention most of the time is whether those conventional understandings also have value, or are only pointing to the path if they are understood in terms of the underlying dhammas. [I'll try to find the Vism section that the other comments were about, and get back to you. I did quote them at length in another post, but can't locate it right now.] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114415 From: "jacob" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just joining the posting group perpetualfl0w Dear Sarah Abbott , Again thanks for the encouragement. the questions that tend to come up right now are related to; if there are associatted monasteries or centers for the study / practice as described in Khun Suchin's tradition. I have been sincerely developing the intention to "become a monk" for a few years ; and the outcome of my learning and practice was not what i had initially expected. The outcome of my efforts is a dis -illusionment and weariness towards all conceptual forms and intentions related to 5 sense door experiences- that includes the conceptual forms related to "monks" and activities related to "monks" ( which was previously functioning as the objects of passionate and delusional formations and concepts ). Not that kama chanda is anywhere near exhausted from my mental continuum - quite the contrary, "my" mind is still frequently swarmed by tanha- but theres enough understanding to see all 5 sense door activities are painful and driven by ignorance and lustfullness - even "my" desire to "become a monk" for which my passion is now on the wane. For me - When the gross rupas fall away from the mental processes temporarily - it is relative safetey and happiness - all the previously accumulated efforts to learn about what is sila samadhi and panna converge and all gross concepts related there to fall away in the present moment that gives rise to clarity and respite from the arduous and tremendous burning that is thinking born of ayoniso manasikara or paapanca. Ayoniso manasikara is like a crazy man who wanders around hawaii taking pleasure - he thinks it is very wonderful "place" but actually "hawaii" is only perhaps 1% of a giant mountain that is a volcano and will errupt and wash away everything anytime. There isnt even one moment when such a person is in a good position - yet he thinks he is in paradise. Ugh, for one who has seen the danger in such a "place" there is much sufferring to be joined amoungst those who assume they are well off. But I am still learning - indeed not even having left "this shore" I am far away from the "further". And while I am still here on this shore it seems to be a necisary condition to stay here in Thailand , where being somone who is interested in learning Buddha Dhamma is accepted and encouraged. For now I am hoping to find and associate with an educational institution or other appropriate social network institution that will promote the study and development of panna in a pure, unadulterated, non sectarian way - and hopefully gain governmental acceptance to stay here in Thailand based on approval to study from such a group. Now I am reluctant and ashamed to ordain because i know the anusaya kilesas still frequently give rise to the 5 hindrances for me, and i do not want to stain the image of the thai sangha . None the less, it seems it may be very useful to develop knowledge of cultural conditions to join the sangha at Wat Pah Nana Chat for a limited period of time - so this is what I'm off to next. (conceptually speaking) Hopefully i will be able to be humble and aware, full of shame towards the hindrances , and things will go well. they do not encourage or allow computers there so it may be a bit of time before i can get oppurtunity to join the posting group , but look forward to the time when i have more oppurtunity to share more of my experiences and ask questions related to. with metta Jacob aka Jake to my hometown family and friends in Boston MA , usa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Jacob, > > I'm also very glad to welcome you to the group and thank you for kindly going to the trouble to give your intro. I saw that in your subsequent note that you plan to lurk quietly for a while - I'd just like to encourage you and any other newbies here to post any comments or any qus (no matter how basic) as they help us all. <...> #114416 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 8:27 pm Subject: The Silenced Sage.. bhikkhu5 Friends: The Sage is a stilled seer, sweet in his silence! The Buddha explained the sweet, yet solid silence of the sage: From all acquaintance, association, affiliation, and attachment, fear arises! From any form of civil house-life emerges a mentally dull and dusty pollution! The sage therefore prefers the disentangled and dissociated houseless state. He who has cut down what has grown up accumulating, and who would never neither plant anything new, nor irrigate what has already sprung up, him they call a solitary wandering sage. Such great seer has seen the state of peace... Having considered and comprehended all the fields of constructing activity, having killed all initiation and all clinging affection, such sage indeed, seeing the end of both birth and death, is beyond both speculation and designation! Knowing all stations of the mind, yet detached from them all, a silenced sage with neither greed nor preference, does neither any good nor any bad action, for he has gone beyond to the far shore, by not accumulating any kamma... Overcoming all, knowing all, very intelligent, unattached to all phenomena, giving up all, completely released by the destruction of craving, such one the wise know as a sage. One who has the power of wisdom, endowed with pure virtue and ascetic praxis, concentrated, delighting in meditation, possessing continuous mindfulness, released, detached, with neither mental barrenness, nor with any mental fermentation brewing, such one the wise know as a sage. Persistent, unshaken by blame & praise like a lion not trembling at any sound, or like the wind not caught in any net, or like a lotus not defiled by any mud. The sage is wandering alone, attentive, leading others, not to be led by any. In the midst of oppression, despise & accusation he becomes imperturbable like a pillar, with passion gone, with senses well under control... Immovable, straight, upright, direct, never ever deviating, disgusted with all evil deeds, examining both good & bad conduct, such one the wise surely know as a sage. Fully restrained, fully self-controlled, who cannot be angered and who never angers anyone, who does no evil, and who neither praises, nor criticizes any other, him indeed the wise know as a sage. Constantly protecting all living & breathing beings, the sage meditating in the remote forest, all beyond both company and sex, completely released, not tied to anything, never negligent, knowing all in this world, seeing the highest goal, having crossed the flood, such a one, with his bonds completely cut, not fettered, without any mental pollution, unselfish, swift and elevated, him indeed the wise know as a sage... Sn 207-221 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114417 From: "azita" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2011 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! gazita2002 hallo Sarah, hallo Chris, I agree with you here Sarah, there are not jst this 'scandal' but another big one that was actually in a thai newpaper and was read out to us at AUA during the 'thai news' hour. Dont want to give details for obvious reasons, but I think it really is an indication that the BuddhaDhamma is disappearing ... So develp right understanding of this very moment, not a moment to lose, remember the Fire sermon. There is only this citta accompanied with various cetasikas and the object of citta. How can anatta be denied? Foolish people, however wrong understanding can be object of compassion. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #114418 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 6, 2011 1:02 am Subject: Hallelujah! (Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best?) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert and Jon - I find the general agreement between you two in yesterday's posts, particularly as summed up in msg 114417, much to my liking! (I give the msg # here instead of quoting the post to save band width.) I also find that what you both are saying closely matches my take on kamma, kamma patha, and kamma vipaka. Hallelujah!! Surely the messiah, er, the buddha-to-be, is coming soon! ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114419 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2011 3:14 pm Subject: Intention is the Kamma! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Buddha on Kamma (Intentional Action): I am the owner of my actions (kamma), inheritor of my actions, born of my actions, created by my actions, and have my own actions as my judge! Whatever I do, good or evil, I will feel the resulting effects of that ... Source: AN V 57 Intention, Bhikkhus, is what I call action, for through intention one initiates these actions through the door of the body, speech or mind. There is kamma (intentional action), Bhikkhus, that ripens in hell.... There is kamma that ripens in the animal world.. There is kamma that ripens in the world of humans.... There is kamma that ripens in the divine world.... Threefold, however, is this ripening fruit of kamma: ripening during here in this life, or ripening in the next rebirth life, or ripening in even later rebirths ... Source: AN VI 63 The 10 advantageous courses of action (=Good Kamma): The 3 bodily actions: Avoidance of killing, stealing, and abusive sexuality. The 4 verbal actions: Avoidance of lying, slandering, angry & empty speech. The 3 mental actions: Doing Withdrawal, Good-will, and Right Views. Source: MN 9 Greed, Bhikkhus, is a condition for the arising of kamma. Hate is a condition for the arising of kamma. Confusion is a condition for the arising of kamma. Source: AN III 109 One who kills & harms goes either to hell or will be short-lived elsewhere. One who torments others will be afflicted with disease or disability. The angry one will look ugly, the envious one will be without influence. The stingy one will be poor, the stubborn will be placed low and stupid. The lazy will be without knowledge, understanding and certainty. In the contrary case, one will be reborn in heaven or reborn as man. One will be long-lived, beautiful, influential, highborn and intelligent! Source: MN 135 There are 10 meritorious actions leading to human or divine rebirth: 1: Giving. 2: Morality. 3: Meditation. 4: Reverence by paying respect to monks and elders. 5: Performing services to others. 6: Transference of merits to others. 7: Rejoicing in others' merit. 8: Learning this true Dhamma. 9: Teaching this true Dhamma. 10: Correcting one's wrong views. To the extent that there are beings, past, and future, dying & re-arising, all beings are the owners of their actions, inheritor to their actions, are born of their actions, created by their action, conditioned by their actions, related to their actions, and are dependent on the effect of past actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, from that will they feel the result... Source: AN V 57 <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114420 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2011 11:14 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Dhamas don't care if they are enlightened or not, they just arise, perform their functions, and cease forever. > H: They perform their function in zero time? I think not. ---- KH: If by "zero time" you mean the duration of one citta then, yes, zero time. How else? -------------------- > H: You view these as separate realities that "do" things, agents! I consider such alleged entities as little selves that arise as *true realities* and are then annihilated. -------------------- KH: Yes, so do I; that is how I consider them too. Although I don't particularly like the term "little selves." ----------------------------- > H: To me, that is an atta-view and an annhilationist one as well. I don't share that view. ----------------------------- KH: It is not atta view. The annihilation is of *little* selves (conditioned dhammas) not of permanent selves (you and me). ------------------------------------ >> KH: Even when there is enlightenment there is no being that is enlightened, there is just a conditioned citta called "enlightenment." It is no different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and ceases forever. > H: If there were such citta-things, they would indeed differ significantly among themselves! The difference between awakened and unawakened is radical and dramatic - all the difference in the world. ------------------------------------ KH: There are indeed citta things. And I agree they do differ from each other in some ways. However, they *all* arise and fall by conditions, and they *all* have anicca dukkha and anatta characteristics. So, in all the important ways they are the same. -------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: I was just stating the same message in a different way: "there is no permanent self. > H: That issue is a red herring. No one here is asserting otherwise. -------------------------- KH: Maybe not but, as I said, I was just saying the same thing in a different way. How would you say it? How would you describe anatta? ------------------------------ >> KH: And all the while there never were any beings - worldling or ariyan. There were only momentary, disinterested, dhammas. > H: Conventionally speaking, yes. Ultimately, there are not even these. It is only a convention to think and speak of such. ------------------------------ KH: Nonsense. ----------------- >>> H: The Buddha spoke of development and of the future. He wasn't insane. He just spoke the way people speak! The present of course doesn't become the future, but it does condition the future. >> KH: Yes and the future will be no different from the present. > H: That is utterly absurd. Then the great Brahma was right in telling the Buddha not to teach!! ------------------- KH: The great Brahma may have had a point! :-) If we are going to insist on looking forward to future enlightenment then teaching the Dhamma (the way things are now) was a waste of time. ----------------------------------- > H: And more essentially: If A "ceases" only to be replaced by A, there is no anicca at all. Without change, without difference, there is no impermanence. You are denying the first of the tilakkhana. ----------------------------------- KH: When one conditioned dhamma ceases it is replaced by another conditioned dhamma. And so the process continues until at last there is a conditioned dhammas called magga-citta, and then the end is near. But so what? There were never any travellers on the path. Ken H #114421 From: Morgan Morrison Date: Wed Apr 6, 2011 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro sanskrit_stu... DSG: All of the discussions about the Apple iPhone/iPod Touch application, iPuja Pro, are, in my view, very much OFF TOPIC! I have this App on my iPhone. iPuja Pro only keeps time for meditation sessions, either on a recurring or a one-time basis. I FAIL to see what all of the other discussions with iPuja Pro App in the subject line have to do with the iPuja Pro App. In my view, all of these discussions are UNRELATED in any way to the iPuja Pro App! Perhaps, it would be more productive to continue this "thread" under a different SUBJECT heading. #114422 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/7/2011 2:14:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Dhamas don't care if they are enlightened or not, they just arise, perform their functions, and cease forever. > H: They perform their function in zero time? I think not. ---- KH: If by "zero time" you mean the duration of one citta then, yes, zero time. How else? ------------------------------------------------------ If a so-called single citta has a duration, and especially if a function occurs while it lasts, there must be some change during that period. Is that how you think of a citta? If no change, then no functioning. And if no change, then no passage of time. ----------------------------------------------------- -------------------- > H: You view these as separate realities that "do" things, agents! I consider such alleged entities as little selves that arise as *true realities* and are then annihilated. -------------------- KH: Yes, so do I; that is how I consider them too. Although I don't particularly like the term "little selves." ------------------------------------------------------ What would you call a thing that has own-nature and own-being, is an agent of action (i.e., acts or "performs its function"), and is a real, separate entity? I'd call it a "self". This is a substantialist, atta-view, as I see it. And if, then, such an alleged reality, such a self, is annihilated, well, that is the case of a self being annihilated. So, what I see here (as philosophy) is a simultaneous realism-substantialism and annihilationism. ------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- > H: To me, that is an atta-view and an annhilationist one as well. I don't share that view. ----------------------------- KH: It is not atta view. The annihilation is of *little* selves (conditioned dhammas) not of permanent selves (you and me). ------------------------------------------------------ You say this, because you ignore what 'self' means. You are fixated only on no-soul in the conventional being. Cittas as you view them have all the features of a Hindu "self" except for their creation ex nihilo as a separate reality then followed by their utter destruction. ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ >> KH: Even when there is enlightenment there is no being that is enlightened, there is just a conditioned citta called "enlightenment." It is no different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and ceases forever. > H: If there were such citta-things, they would indeed differ significantly among themselves! The difference between awakened and unawakened is radical and dramatic - all the difference in the world. ------------------------------------ KH: There are indeed citta things. And I agree they do differ from each other in some ways. ----------------------------------------------------- But you just wrote that an alleged "... conditioned citta called 'enlightenment' " ... "is no different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and ceases forever." -------------------------------------------------------------------- However, they *all* arise and fall by conditions, and they *all* have anicca dukkha and anatta characteristics. So, in all the important ways they are the same. ------------------------------------------------------- "Similar" in some ways, but certainly not "the same"! --------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: I was just stating the same message in a different way: "there is no permanent self. > H: That issue is a red herring. No one here is asserting otherwise. -------------------------- KH: Maybe not but, as I said, I was just saying the same thing in a different way. How would you say it? How would you describe anatta? ---------------------------------------------------------- Both as "no self" and as "not self" depending of usage context. The key thing is what the word 'self' (the intended referent of which is and should be denied) means. For me,the word means, again depending on usage context, either "a thing that has own-nature and own-being (i.e., identity), is an agent of action (i.e., acts or "performs its function"), and is a real, separate entity" or "a core in anything of own-nature and own being (i.e., identity), agency of action, reality, and separate essence." -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ >> KH: And all the while there never were any beings - worldling or ariyan. There were only momentary, disinterested, dhammas. > H: Conventionally speaking, yes. Ultimately, there are not even these. It is only a convention to think and speak of such. ------------------------------ KH: Nonsense. ------------------------------------------------------------ ;-) I take that to mean you disagree. ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- >>> H: The Buddha spoke of development and of the future. He wasn't insane. He just spoke the way people speak! The present of course doesn't become the future, but it does condition the future. >> KH: Yes and the future will be no different from the present. > H: That is utterly absurd. Then the great Brahma was right in telling the Buddha not to teach!! ------------------- KH: The great Brahma may have had a point! :-) If we are going to insist on looking forward to future enlightenment then teaching the Dhamma (the way things are now) was a waste of time. --------------------------------------------------------- Well, so KenH is "on the Brahma team"! LOLOL! ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- > H: And more essentially: If A "ceases" only to be replaced by A, there is no anicca at all. Without change, without difference, there is no impermanence. You are denying the first of the tilakkhana. ----------------------------------- KH: When one conditioned dhamma ceases it is replaced by another conditioned dhamma. -------------------------------------------------------- Do they differ or not? If they do not, then there is no change, and anicca goes out the window. ------------------------------------------------------- And so the process continues until at last there is a conditioned dhammas called magga-citta, and then the end is near. But so what? There were never any travellers on the path. ---------------------------------------------------------- Agreed. No traveler. But also no path. And also no cittas, for there is no core or substance to be found anywhere, and consciousness is like a magic trick. -------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick " this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) _______________________________ /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none " such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," " such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #114423 From: "Christine" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! christine_fo... Hello Sarah, Thanks for the response. Yes, as you say, there'll always be scandals - but this was alerting members to (alleged) deliberate alteration in the wording of the Dhamma - presented to large numbers of people as truth. with metta Chris #114424 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 12:32 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113680) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: So you're happy with the idea of kamma and vipaka as long as it works the way you think it should ;-)). > > > > [RE:] No, I think that's a bit of a straw man. I don't want kamma to conform to my expectations, but if there's a mysterious and not-so-obvious process at play, and that is fine, it requires a better explanation than just the obvious. I think that is a fair expectation. > > =============== > > J: Sorry, but it still seems to me that you're saying that the explanation should conform to your expectations (in this case, 'better than just the obvious'). ;-)) In most areas, disputes are resolved by evidence. In Buddhism, apparently, they are resolved by doctrine. Buddha does say explicitly that future life circumstances are the result of previous kamma, so one either believes that doctrine or not. On the other hand, in the extreme case where we do not see any of the current effects of kamma, but it is said that they are all the result of past kamma, it is a bit more difficult. That means we never get any direct evidence that kamma is in operation. My understanding of kamma and DO, which is not very good and for which I invite your correction, is that some goes to future and some appears more rapidly. In the small cycle of DO, a lot of results show up almost immediately, as I have heard it explained before. If it is the case that all sensory experience is vipaka, then a lot of that is canceled out, and we can only presume that what we are experiencing now is the result of past kamma. With that in mind, what is there to "come and see" in any given lifetime prior to enlightement? A tiny drop more intellectual clarity about the reality of dhammas? I don't think that's what the Buddha meant or implied, as important as that may be. He strongly indicated that one could see the results of the path in the present lifetime, to an extent that one would understand that the path was real and changed the quality of existence. Do you disagree? If not, where do we see the quality of life and the path express itself now, other than a bit more pariyatti? > > =============== > [RE:] It is just like commentaries that say that an explanation of body parts is really about the Four Great Elements. I would need to know how that conclusion was drawn before I could immediately understand that to be the case. Do you think that is unreasonable? > > =============== > > J: Nobody is suggesting unquestioning acceptance of the commentaries. But a useful first step is always to find out what the commentaries say, because the explanation/interpretation they given is, in my experience, always both internally consistent and consistent with the sutta texts (even though not always the expected interpretation). I understand that the commentaries may not give the expected interpretation, but the interpretation given for some seem quite far out. I am not dismissing them out of hand, but I am asking for someone who understands them better than me to explain why the explanation has a useful relationship to the text of the sutta. There's got to be some relatioship or it's not a commentary, just a new essay. When "the flood" sutta is said by the commentary to be about the middle way between annihilationism and eternalism, that seems to me that the commentator is using the sutta symbolically. Sure, there are two explicit poles, effort and inaction. It seems clear that the middle way in that sutta is to neither resist action, nor force action. That is a great lesson in "right effort" that is not self-based. Instead of going with that obvious theme that is in the actual sutta, it extrapolates off onto eternalism. I see this as a doctrinal exercise rather than a commentary. Doesn't mean it's wrong, but again, what does it have to do with the sutta? If someone can explain it to me, why it is "b" and not the "a" that I have given, which makes good doctrinal sense of the sutta, I will be happy. Otherwise, should I believe the commentary anyway, and say "Well the commentary said it and they know better than me" when it seems like the sutta has been used as a convenient, unrelated jumping-off point? Even an arahant could go off onto a theme that they thought was a good one. It doesn't mean it is a true commentary in such a case. I may be speaking out of turn, but I am just saying what seems clear to me on its face. So I await a more knowledgeable explanation, if you can provide one. > Also, the commentaries have been the subject of serious study within the Theravada community since they were compiled. The idea that they have just come to be 'exposed' as a rogue interpretation of the original teachings by modern-day followers (who also happen to have discovered meditation and retreats as an essential part of the teachings) is one I find inherently unlikely ;-)) Nobody had to discover meditation. It's been the main activity of Buddhist monks since the Buddha put on his first robe. It's not a new-age invention by modern people, and I'm sure you're aware of that. It's part of the tradition of almost every Buddhist in the world and throughout history. I think it's more of a latter-day discovery that no sort of practice is necessary for those who read the Abhidhamma. Now that's radical! :-) What do Buddhist monks do all day? They work, read and meditate. And meditate, and meditate. > > =============== > > > J: You seem to be implying that the results of a given action should be experienced within the same lifetime as the action, so as to make it more easily verifiable, perhaps ;-)) > > > > [RE:] No and yes. I don't imply that vipaka *should* be experienced within the same lifetime as the action, but if it is delayed for such a long time and there are all sorts of accumulations lying in wait for multiple lifetimes, I'd like to know how that works so that it is understandable. And I don't mean a blow-by-blow explanation, but just what puts that principle into play in a general way. > > =============== > > J: I don't quite see why the time lag between cause and result should be an issue. Perhaps you could say a little more about your concern on this point. It's only an issue because it deprives us of evidence that the vipaka is taking place and is related to the kamma. I'm looking for an explanation of the reason for the time lag, though I guess that has to do with fortuitous conditions. > > =============== > [RE:] I also *do* think, and it is obviously true, that this situation makes the relationship of kamma to vipaka less verifiable. If you are saying that anyone who follows the Dhamma shouldn't need any verification, I would say that sort of defeats the Buddha's call to "come and see" for oneself. > > =============== > > J: The verification does not, as far as I know, come from being able to 'see' a given (present) result as having had a specific (past) cause. At least I've never seen that suggested. (True, it is said that those with the power of the 'divine eye' do see beings being reborn according to their past deeds, but this is not one of the vipassana nanas that are attained as mundane insight is developed.) Yes, that's my question: that being the case, where does the verification come from. Anywhere? Or purely a matter of faith in doctrine? > > =============== > > [RE:] I think it can be rather overly convenient for those who subscribe to a certain philosophy to be able to say "Well we'll never be able to prove or disprove it since we won't see the results for a few million years. Sorry about that!" An explanation of why that is so *does* go a longer way towards filling that gap, if it makes sense of the long delays. > > =============== > > J: Sorry, but I'm missing your point regarding the significance of the period of time between cause and result. No evidence. > Confirmation of the law of kamma and vipaka does not require seeing both a moment of cause and the result of that moment of cause within a single lifetime. What does it require? You say what it doesn't require, but not what the confirmation consists of. Is there any? > In any event, how would it be known that a given moment of experiencing a sense-object was the result of a particular previous moment of intention? Exactly my point. How can one know? > > =============== > > > J: Not really delayed, just not as immediate as you think it should be. > > > > [RE:] No, again a bit of a straw man. I would say: "not immediately enough to verify the system during this lifetime." Again, if the explanation is adequate to the subject matter, that may fill the gap, but *something* has to justify a system that does not reveal its outcomes in any manner that we can easily follow. Again, do you think that is an unreasonable expectation? > > =============== > > J: Again, it seems you're saying that if it can't be verified right now, or if it can't be easily followed, it can't possibly be the way things actually are. So it's only verified for arahants? > As for whether your expectation is a reasonable one or not, I'd say I don't see why individual expectations should come into it. One of the oft-repeated points about the Dhamma made by the Buddha was its complexity and depth. So what is the verification? What is the explanation? How do we as non-enlighteneds understand the workings of kamma on our level? > > =============== > > [RE:] Yes, well I can accept the idea that not *everything* is immediately experienceable by *everyone,* but if we cannot discern dhammas directly at the present time, and we are told that hardly anyone can, and we cannot see the results of kamma, conditions, tendencies or accumulations perhaps for thousands or millions of lifetimes from now, then what at the moment is there to "come and see?" Can we come and see anything? What is Buddha calling us to get off our worldling complacencies and "come see" right now? > > =============== > > J: I gave one example in my earlier response in this thread ("that the object experienced through a sense-doors is a dhamma unique to that sense-door."). So the good news of the Dhamma is that we can begin to clearly see the nature of namas and rupas and how they operate? I'm glad he didn't make it more explicit for the average person! That would be like telling kindergarteners that they are going to have an extremely nutritious vitamin compound mixed with healthy algae for their snack! ;-) > Another would be that what are called dhammas are clearly a distinct class of thing. Wow, if I were a worldling I'd rush right down to get some of that! :-) Of course, those with but a little dust would find those discoveries extremely inspiring. I apologize... > The problem is that the less developed understanding there is, the less of the teachings will be immediately verifiable by direct experience, so we should not expect too much in this regard ;-)) Yes, well, so true in every area. > > =============== > > [RE:] My explanation is that he is not asking us to wait for thousands of lifetimes to see ultimate realities directly, but that he is inviting us to experience the fruits of practice *now* by engaging the teachings in a very active way. > > =============== > > J: Nobody is suggesting that there cannot now be the direct seeing of dhammas (at a level appropriate to one's level of developed understanding). > > As regards 'experiencing the fruits of practice *now*', those fruits are just that seeing of dhammas directly or, put differently, a better understanding of dhammas as they actually are. In my experience, there is a lot that happens on the conventional level and with increases in mindfulness of a general kind before such a direct moment of seeing can be verified. What is the enjoyment of the path that makes it seem more worthwhile than hanging out in a bar and drinking rice liquor? It is that there is an experience of some ability to watch the things of life without being so overwhelmed, a sense of some mindfulness unfolding, awareness of reactions [vedana] that make sense of the constant ups and downs of life, an understanding of anicca as applied to clinging, that the things we hold onto are inevitably going to change or be taken away, and a sense that life is a process, rather than a collection of persons that need protection. In states brought on by detachment, meditation, understanding, a refined form of happiness sometimes seems to arise that is nicer and less clingy that the normal grabbing onto food, sex and possessions and sometimes a sense of mild happiness of that kind lasts a little while and seems connected to the Dhamma. I think all these "still-somewhat-conventional" experiences that are clearly results of the path are the "come and see" in this lifetime that give you feedback that the path has something unique to offer. The obsession with "seeing only" and "seeing clearly" as opposed to the global change in perception and understanding that is not always defined by the conscious mind seems somewhat one-dimensional at times. I think the path is a whole-person transformation over time, and pieces of it start to appear in any given lifetime of practice. Buddha spoke about the refined states of happiness and contentedness and higher states of consciousness that come about at different stages of the path. They are not intellectual, but whole-organism, so to speak, changes in experience. I don't think he was just saying that as a side-comment, but that these present-life experiences are an important indicator of progress on the path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114425 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 12:53 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was, The clansman ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113681) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: As you see it, would someone taking that instruction to heart and practising the doing of specific things be likley to have more kusala than aksuala during the course of that practice? > > > > [RE:] In my opinion, if the person took the Buddha seriously and believed what he said, and followed his instructions on that basis, rather than with a will to personally achieve goal a or b under his own plan of control, there would be a lot of kusala involved. With faith in the Buddha's teachings, he would patiently engage the practice and experience the joy of being on the path. > > =============== > > J: It's not a matter of 'belief in what the Buddha said' or 'faith in the Buddha's teachings', if by that is meant conventional belief or faith. It's a matter of whether the teachings have been correctly understood/interpreted. Without that, any practice engaged in is going to be wrong practice. So as regards any specific things done, it's the accompanying mental states that are crucial. You're saying two different things: 1. It's correct interpretation of the path, or what is meant by practice, that is important. 2. It's the accompanying mental states and whether they are kusala that is important. I think meditation is correct practice. You don't. So there lies the divergence of view. If I engage in any activity, other than ones that are clearly representing negative intentions, like murder, with faith and devotion, aren't those mental states kusala? > > =============== > > > J: Neither did the Buddha ever say "Do this form of practice and it'll bring you lots of kusala" ;-)) > > > > [RE:] Not true. "Strive unceasingly," "apply yourself with great energy" just as I have done - paraphrasing what both I and Alex have recently quoted, and "you will soon experience the fruits of the practice." If you go back a few posts to Alex's last few posts, you'll see the exact words that add up to the above. Buddha did talk that way quite a bit. > > =============== > > J: So on your reading it's a matter of doing specific actions with a belief that what's being done is the form of 'practice' taught by the Buddha? > > To my way of thinking, that would be a recipe for wrong practice leading to further wrong view. Not just any specific action, but ones explictly said by the Buddha to be foundational for the enlightenment factors to develop. They're not arbitrary activities, but the ones the Buddha engaged in with his disciples and taught to his monks. It seems kind of obvious to me. > > =============== > > > J: Obviously Right Effort is, by definition, effort that is kusala. So when the Buddha spoke about Right Effort, he would not have been including any effort that was akusala. > > > > [RE:] That wasn't my point. My point was not that it was kusala, which is great, but that such conventional "action and effort" was a legitimate part of the path. To put it another way, such worldly effort and intention is kusala, which one would think otherwise about if one thought that only discerning dhammas and understanding Dhamma was the path. > > =============== > > J: Yes, worldly effort and intention may be kusala. But this has nothing to do with the path factors, which are the mental factors that accompany a moment of insight. > > > =============== > > > We agree on that point. Where we differ is the extent to which kusala can be induced to arise by virtue of having the intention that it should. > > > > [RE:] So to what extent is that possible, and do you agree that Buddha included that "action" part of the path in the Noble 8fold path, as listed above? > > =============== > > J: The "action" part of the Noble Eightfold Path are certain mental factors that abstain from unwholesome conduct. Not to be confused with conventional, worldly actions. What about right livelihood, right action, etc.? Do they not constitute areas of positive conduct, not just abstention? > > =============== > > > J: I'm thinking of, for example, the teaching that all dhammas are anatta. > > > > [RE:] I don't see any problem with doing stuff and understanding all that is done as anatta at the same time. This idea that action and anatta are like oil and water has a logic that I don't understand. It seems like a philosophical predisposition that any doing is automatically self-view. I don't believe that to be the case. > > =============== > > J: No, I'm not saying that intentional action has to be with an idea of self. That's obviously not the case. What I was alluding to is the idea that kusala mindstates can be made to arise by devoting time, effort or attention to the development of kusala. Such an idea is, I believe, incompatible with the teaching on anatta. I think it depends on where the devotion and effort come from. Buddha spoke of Right Effort, Right Concentration, etc. It seems to me that these are correct practices if done with the right intention. > Having the intention to do X or Y, where X and Y are any conventional, worldly activity, does not necessarily involve an idea or self. But having the idea that one can be happy, or be compassionate, or be wise, etc by virtue of any particular practice is a different matter altogether. That does involve the idea that particular dhammas can be made or induced to arise by dint of deliberately creating the 'right conditions'. Well I don't think it's self-view to think that if one follows the Buddha's instructions, he will get to where the Buddha wanted him to go. That seems just following the path to me - no "inducing dhammas" on the part of a self. If Buddhism wasn't said by Buddha over and over again to lead to release, no one would even bother about it. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114426 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 12:56 pm Subject: Hallelujah! (Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best?) epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert and Jon - > > I find the general agreement between you two in yesterday's posts, > particularly as summed up in msg 114417, much to my liking! (I give the msg # > here instead of quoting the post to save band width.) We agreed on something? Oh no, that must be a mistake! Jon, I apologize! > I also find that > what you both are saying closely matches my take on kamma, kamma patha, and > kamma vipaka. Hallelujah!! Surely the messiah, er, the buddha-to-be, is > coming soon! ;-)) Given the inevitability of the old anicca, I'm sure it won't last, but I am very happy you pointed it out! It is a special moment! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114427 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! epsteinrob Hi Christine. Is there a link for this? I hear that you are saying there was a scandal, but no idea what or where it was... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114428 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 3:46 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 4/7/2011 2:14:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ---- > <. . .> > >> KH: Dhamas don't care if they are enlightened or not, they just arise, > perform their functions, and cease forever. > > > H: They perform their function in zero time? I think not. > ---- > > KH: If by "zero time" you mean the duration of one citta then, yes, zero > time. How else? > ------------------------------------------------------ > If a so-called single citta has a duration, and especially if a > function occurs while it lasts, there must be some change during that period. Is > that how you think of a citta? If no change, then no functioning. And if no > change, then no passage of time. > ----------------------------------------------------- I would just add that time *is* the measure of change or action. I agree with what you say above, Howard. If there is any kind of action taking place, time is automatically created as the action/change that takes place. Time is a way of counting change, so to speak, no pun intended. I think the Abhidhamma masters take this into account as well, in their own particular way of counting. They say that rupas take a certain number of moments, cittas take a certain number of moments too. But if a citta = one moment, then you are right that there is no room in there for any rising, duration and falling to take place. If a moment is a measure of change, then the rising would have to take a number of moments to account for the number of changes that take place, and the other phases as well, as long as there is function/action taking place. That points out that the measure of time/measure of moments is at best an expedient way of measuring and does not represent the infinite number of changes that take place whenever there is change or action. If you count moments as we do, by the clock, you can say that "x number of moments or seconds" have gone by, but if you are counting absolute "change-moments" or "action-moments," in reality those break down into any infinite number of discernible changes/sub-actions. Hey, maybe you can give us a good algorithm for this kind of calculation! :-) > -------------------- > > H: You view these as separate realities that "do" things, agents! I > consider such alleged entities as little selves that arise as *true > realities* and are then annihilated. > -------------------- > > KH: Yes, so do I; that is how I consider them too. Although I don't > particularly like the term "little selves." > ------------------------------------------------------ > What would you call a thing that has own-nature and own-being, is an > agent of action (i.e., acts or "performs its function"), and is a real, > separate entity? I'd call it a "self". > This is a substantialist, atta-view, as I see it. And if, then, such > an alleged reality, such a self, is annihilated, well, that is the case of a > self being annihilated. So, what I see here (as philosophy) is a > simultaneous realism-substantialism and annihilationism. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ----------------------------- > > H: To me, that is an atta-view and an annhilationist one as well. I > don't share that view. > ----------------------------- > > KH: It is not atta view. The annihilation is of *little* selves > (conditioned dhammas) not of permanent selves (you and me). Don't we get annihilated too? What is the difference? Buddha spoke against both little self and eternal self, not just the latter. He said that the so-called "little personal self" is not a self at all, but just composed of the kandhas. Didn't you catch that part of the teaching? ;-) > ------------------------------------------------------ > You say this, because you ignore what 'self' means. You are fixated > only on no-soul in the conventional being. Cittas as you view them have all > the features of a Hindu "self" except for their creation ex nihilo as a > separate reality then followed by their utter destruction. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> KH: Even when there is enlightenment there is no being that is > enlightened, there is just a conditioned citta called "enlightenment." It is no > different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and > ceases forever. > > > H: If there were such citta-things, they would indeed differ > significantly among themselves! The difference between awakened and > unawakened is radical and dramatic - all the difference in the world. > ------------------------------------ > > KH: There are indeed citta things. And I agree they do differ from each > other in some ways. > ----------------------------------------------------- > But you just wrote that an alleged "... conditioned citta called > 'enlightenment' " ... "is no different from the citta that exists now; it just > performs its function and ceases forever." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > However, they *all* arise and fall by conditions, and they *all* have > anicca dukkha and anatta characteristics. So, in all the important ways they > are the same. > ------------------------------------------------------- > "Similar" in some ways, but certainly not "the same"! > --------------------------------------------------------- I think this particular point is not in contention, just a difference of terms. But what is in contention is whether the little citta has an objective existence that is exact with an exact beginning and an end, and a predetermined exact function which is calculated in a scientific type of way, doing exactly and only what it is programmed to do quite neatly, with a specific own-being characteristic, and then falling away in a completely "legal" manner and timing. The question is whether the samsaric universe is really that neat and tidy, and whether something that precise, clean and legally determined is what Buddha meant by Dependent Origination. It is one thing to say there are a set of discernible types of causative factors, or conditions, that give rise to certain types of cittas and experiences within the kandhas, but another to say that it is all mystically ordained to behave in just thus-and-such a way, and that all DO and kamma is carried out like absolute clockwork. That may indeed be a real idealization of what is really happening in our pin-ball or domino-like universe, even though every single thing that happens does affect every other structure around it. > -------------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: I was just stating the same message in a different way: "there is > no permanent self. > > > H: That issue is a red herring. No one here is asserting otherwise. > -------------------------- > > KH: Maybe not but, as I said, I was just saying the same thing in a > different way. > > How would you say it? How would you describe anatta? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Both as "no self" and as "not self" depending of usage context. > The key thing is what the word 'self' (the intended referent of which > is and should be denied) means. For me,the word means, again depending on > usage context, either "a thing that has own-nature and own-being (i.e., > identity), is an agent of action (i.e., acts or "performs its function"), and > is a real, separate entity" or "a core in anything of own-nature and own > being (i.e., identity), agency of action, reality, and separate essence." > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------ > >> KH: And all the while there never were any beings - worldling or > ariyan. There were only momentary, disinterested, dhammas. > > > H: Conventionally speaking, yes. Ultimately, there are not even > these. It is only a convention to think and speak of such. > ------------------------------ > > KH: Nonsense. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ;-) I take that to mean you disagree. > ---------------------------------------------------------- I think in this repeated point that you both disagree on, it would be good to be more precise about what is meant. Howard, when you say "ultimately there are not even these," what would you say *is* existent, and how does it play out? I think you would both agree that dhammas are momentary and temporary and fall away completely right after they arise. But the process by which this takes place and what is actually there when the dhamma is present is where the contention exists, and I think it would be very valuable to have this debate in finer detail. If Ken H. could go to the trouble of backing up his view with some good commentary and sub-commentary quotes that outline the existence of dhammas more precisely, and if you could describe, Howard, how you see the fleeting experiential universe of kandhas arising and falling, that would be quite an exchange! > ----------------- > >>> H: The Buddha spoke of development and of the > future. He wasn't insane. He just spoke the way people speak! The > present of course doesn't become the future, but it does condition the future. > > >> KH: Yes and the future will be no different from the present. > > > H: That is utterly absurd. Then the great Brahma was right in telling > the Buddha not to teach!! > ------------------- > > KH: The great Brahma may have had a point! :-) If we are going to insist > on looking forward to future enlightenment then teaching the Dhamma (the way > things are now) was a waste of time. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Well, so KenH is "on the Brahma team"! LOLOL! > ---------------------------------------------------------- Ken H. is just an "all or nothing" kind of guy when it comes to dhammas. You have to respect that, even if you totally disagree! ;-) > ----------------------------------- > > H: And more essentially: If A "ceases" only to be replaced by A, there > is no anicca at all. Without change, without difference, there is no > impermanence. You are denying the first of the tilakkhana. > ----------------------------------- > > KH: When one conditioned dhamma ceases it is replaced by another > conditioned dhamma. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Do they differ or not? If they do not, then there is no change, and > anicca goes out the window. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > And so the process continues until at last there is a conditioned dhammas > called magga-citta, and then the end is near. But so what? There were never > any travellers on the path. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Agreed. No traveler. But also no path. And also no cittas, for there > is no core or substance to be found anywhere, and consciousness is like a > magic trick. > -------------------------------------------------------- This has to be spelled out more precisely. If it is like a magic trick, what are we experiencing and how? How is it that consciousness exists to the extent that it can apprehend these experiential moments, and what is really taking place while consciousness is doing so in your view? As for Ken H., I don't think he's saying that all cittas are precisely the same. Obviously, some have more panna and samatha, some are doing function A while the next may be doing function B. I think he is just saying that they have the same "big characteristics" and nature, despite the differences in substance and function on the detailed level. They all rise and fall, are all anatta, and all have a function and a certain set of cetasikas accompanying them. I think that's what he meant by "all the same." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114429 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/7/2011 6:48:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I think in this repeated point that you both disagree on, it would be good to be more precise about what is meant. Howard, when you say "ultimately there are not even these," what would you say *is* existent, and how does it play out? I think you would both agree that dhammas are momentary and temporary and fall away completely right after they arise. But the process by which this takes place and what is actually there when the dhamma is present is where the contention exists, and I think it would be very valuable to have this debate in finer detail. If Ken H. could go to the trouble of backing up his view with some good commentary and sub-commentary quotes that outline the existence of dhammas more precisely, and if you could describe, Howard, how you see the fleeting experiential universe of kandhas arising and falling, that would be quite an exchange! =================================== As I consider it, there is but one dynamic, pulsing-with-ebb-and-flow-vitality reality, and it is known as "the unconditioned," and as "nibbana". I consider conditioned dhammas to be matters of convention, mentally separated off from the one reality, mental fabrications. I also believe, however, that all these words, and any others, miss the mark. With metta, Howard Reality /There is but one reality: Unconditioned, timeless, boundless, seamless, and luminous. The mystics in the Abrahamic traditions, call it "God." The Ch'an/Zen Buddhists refer to it variously as "vast emptiness" and "the empty field." The Buddha called it "nibbana." Misperceived, it is Buddhist "samsara": the realm of tortured wandering - being tossed about on the waves of desire and aversion; it is the appearance realm of separate things, the Hasidic "world of lies". Coming to perceive it as it is, is our awakening, the destruction of all taints, the end of suffering, and the final and perfect attainment of ultimate happiness and perfect peace./ (Anonymous) #114430 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 5:34 pm Subject: New thread / was Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >>> H: They perform their function in zero time? I think not. >> KH: If by "zero time" you mean the duration of one citta then, yes, zero time. How else? > H: If a so-called single citta has a duration, and especially if a function occurs while it lasts, there must be some change during that period. Is that how you think of a citta? If no change, then no functioning. And if no change, then no passage of time. ---- KH: Can we get back to the question of "how else"? I know you don't accept the doctrine of paramattha dhammas, but that's another matter. If we *do* accept the doctrine of paramattha dhammas we must agree that dhammas perform their functions *while they are existent*, mustn't we? They can't do anything while they are non-existent. So, if there is such a thing as lobha, for example, it must perform its function (of clinging to an object) in the time space of one lobha, mustn't it? How else? ---------- <. . .> >> KH: that is how I consider them too. Although I don't particularly like the term "little selves." > H: What would you call a thing that has own-nature and own-being, is an agent of action (i.e., acts or "performs its function"), and is a real, separate entity? I'd call it a "self". ---------- KH: Yes, let's be frank about this, you regard conditioned dhammas as atta. -------------- > H: This is a substantialist, atta-view, as I see it. -------------- KH: As I see it, it is a substantialist, *anatta*, view. Anything that has substance (ultimate reality) must be anatta. ------------------------ >H: And if, then, such an alleged reality, such a self, is annihilated, well, that is the case of a self being annihilated. So, what I see here (as philosophy) is a simultaneous realism-substantialism and annihilationism. ------------------------ KH: Would that be such a bad thing? I am not saying the annihilationists were right (far from it), but if they were right in saying that concepts (people etc) were impermanent, would that be such a bad thing? At least, with the death of the person, suffering would be over. --------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: The annihilation is of *little* selves (conditioned dhammas) not of permanent selves (you and me). > H: You say this, because you ignore what 'self' means. You are fixated only on no-soul in the conventional being. Cittas as you view them have all the features of a Hindu "self" except for their creation ex nihilo as a separate reality then followed by their utter destruction. --------------------------- KH: Whatever you think about the doctrine of paramattha dhammas you must agree it makes logical sense. Your view, with respect, does not make sense. You are forced into saying things exist but "not in and of themselves", or "not with their own being". That doesn't make sense; it is doubletalk: it puts the onus (of making sense of it) onto the listener. Ultimately, a thing either exists - in and of itself, with own being - or it doesn't exist. There is no third possibility. ------------------------------------ >>>> KH: Even when there is enlightenment there is no being that is enlightened, there is just a conditioned citta called "enlightenment." It is no different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and ceases forever. >>> H: If there were such citta-things, they would indeed differ significantly among themselves! The difference between awakened and unawakened is radical and dramatic - all the difference in the world. >> KH: There are indeed citta things. And I agree they do differ from each other in some ways. > H: But you just wrote that an alleged "... conditioned citta called 'enlightenment' " ... "is no different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and ceases forever." ------------------------------------- KH: That's right; it is no different in that respect. :-) --------------- >> KH: However, they *all* arise and fall by conditions, and they *all* have anicca dukkha and anatta characteristics. So, in all the important ways they are the same. > H:"Similar" in some ways, but certainly not "the same"! --------------- KH: Absolutely the same (in some ways)! The anicca, dukkha and anatta characteristics of one conditioned dhamma are absolutely the same as those of any other conditioned dhamma. -------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: How would you describe anatta? > H: Both as "no self" and as "not self" depending of usage context. The key thing is what the word 'self' (the intended referent of which is and should be denied) means. For me,the word means, again depending on usage context, either "a thing that has own-nature and own-being (i.e., identity), is an agent of action (i.e., acts or "performs its function"), and is a real, separate entity" or "a core in anything of own-nature and own being (i.e., identity), agency of action, reality, and separate essence." ----------------------------- KH: Thanks for answering the question. Unfortunately, your definition of atta is the same as my definition of paramattha dhammas. ------------- <. . .> > H: Well, so KenH is "on the Brahma team"! LOLOL! ------------- KH: How did I get myself into this! :-) ----------------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: When one conditioned dhamma ceases it is replaced by another conditioned dhamma. > H: Do they differ or not? ----------------------------------- KH: I thought we had settled this. They are the same in the important ways. They are the same in that they bear their own characteristics (so nama is distinct from rupa, and rupa is distinct from nama, etc). They are the same in that they are conditioned, not unconditioned, and they are the same in that they all bear the three universal characteristics. How much more sameness could you want? :-) -------------- > H: If they do not, then there is no change, and anicca goes out the window. -------------- KH: Yes, dependent origination (not just anicca) would go out the window. ------------------ >> KH: And so the process continues until at last there is a conditioned dhammas called magga-citta, and then the end is near. But so what? There were never any travellers on the path. > H: Agreed. No traveler. But also no path. And also no cittas, for there is no core or substance to be found anywhere, and consciousness is like a magic trick. ------------------ KH: I don't know what we're going to do with you, Howard! :-) Ken H #114431 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 9:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is "direct" understanding? epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Alex wrote: > >Not every place is an ideal place. That is why the suttas and commentaries often talk about going into physical seclusion and meditating there. The VsM is clear about it, and in certain paragraphs talks about physical impediments. > ... > S: Again, this is just thinking about different places now. Is there any understanding of thinking as just a conditioned dhamma now? Can't we do both? Acknowledge that the thought is a thought, and then deal with the physical location as well? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114433 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 2:47 pm Subject: Kamma and Life Length... bhikkhu5 Friends: What Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence Life-Length? A student once asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings here are short-lived, while other human beings are long-lived? The Blessed Buddha then explained: Here, friend, some man or woman kills living beings and is murderous, bloody-handed, enjoying rage and violence, cruel to all living beings! Because of intending and undertaking such action, at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one reappears in a state of affliction, in a painful destination, in the purgatory, or even in the hells... But if such one at the breakup of the body, after death, is not reborn in an awful state, a painful destination, the purgatory, or in the hells, but instead comes back to the human state, then wherever such one is reborn he is short-lived #! These are the actions, friend, that leads to a short future life, namely, kill, murder, bloody-handed brutality, slaughter, violence, and cruelty towards all living beings... However, friend, any man or woman, who is avoiding killing of any living beings, who abstains from killing any living beings, with rod and weapon laid down, gentle & kind, such one dwells friendly to all living beings... Because of intending & undertaking such action, at breakup of the body, right after death, such one reappears in a pleasurable & happy destination, even in the divine dimensions! But if at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is not reborn in a happy destination, in the heavenly worlds, but instead comes back to a human state, then wherever such one reappears, such one is long-lived %! This way, friend, leading to long life, is namely, avoiding the killing of any living beings, refraining from killing living beings, with stick and weapon laid aside, gentle and kind, one abides compassionate to all sentient beings, completely harmless to all living & breathing beings...! Notes: #: Such one escapes hell, because the evil kamma is modified by past good! %: Such one miss heaven, because the good kamma is modified by past evil! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The short speech on Action. MN 135 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn135a.html <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114434 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! christine_fo... Hello Rob, I included the link in my first post .... I think the one you are asking about is what was mentioned in Azita's post? Not sure what that is. with metta Chris #114435 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Tue, 5/4/11, truth_aerator wrote: >>S: It refers to the panna which understands the dhammas involved >without thinking about them. ... >A: So it is an arising of perception or inference? .... S: I'm not sure what you mean here exactly. Perception (sanna) arises with each citta, as you know. So when there is a citta arising with panna, sanna is also arising with it, performing its function of marking the object. As for inference - isn't this a kind of thinking? When panna arises and understands the dhamma appearing, such as hardness or temperature, it just understands that characteristic directly. Any inference or thinking about it arises subsequently. Like now, citta experiences a tangible object through the body-sense, such as hardness. Usually, there's no awareness, no understanding. However, without trying to have any such awareness, it sometimes arises, doesn't it? .... >> S: So what about now? There is seeing, hearing, sound, >thinking....is there any understanding of what appears now or are we >more concerned about future/past understanding? > .... > >Physical seclusion in proper place is an important component >according to the Buddha (MN17) and commentaries such as VsM. > ... >> S: So this is not now anymore, but a concern about the future/past >again. >> S: Again, this is just thinking about different places now. .... A:>What you are saying seems to be a a certain kind of interpretation of the Buddha's message. His message in MN17 was clear. Not every place is equally suited for progress. .... S: I think the Buddha's message throughout his teachings concerns the development of understanding at this very moment. There is no other time. If we are in the forest now, fine. If we are not and thinking we should be, then that thinking and wishing and doubt are the present kinds of cittas. And between all this thinking, there is seeing, there is hearing and there really is no difference between the seeing here or the seeing there, the hearing here or the hearing there - just conditioned dhammas which experience a variety of visible objects and sounds. Is there any awareness right now? ... >A: I fully agree that one should make the best use of the situation one is in. Of course health, various commitments, etc, can hinder. Sure. ... S: The only hindrances are the present ignorance and wrong views. What you are talking about is doubt - doubt that there can be awareness now. Thinking that another situation would be easier is a condition in itself that there won't be any awareness now. For the Buddha's disciples, they understood the present dhammas - regardless of health and commitments. ... >A:Of course it is good to do the best right now as well. But there are better occasions which would be preferable to get, meanwhile one develops understanding now. .... S: These comments about "one should make the best use of..." and "it is good to do the best...", "better occasions which would be preferable to get", still suggest an idea of Self and Selection, not an understanding of paramattha dhammas. The more understanding there is of paramattha dhammas, the less idea there is of particular times, occasions, places and "doing" of anything. As for MN17, I discussed this sutta at length before here and have written a lot on the deep meaning of seclusion. In summary, I wrote: >Sarah: I think the whole point is that we spend our lives, our days 'focussing on conditions', trying to find the right forest, village, town or person, trying to escape the noise, the chaos, the chores and so on with the illusion that somehow our lives will be better, there will be more opportunities of right understanding and all that's wholesome to develop if only we were in the ideal retreat of one kind or another. We forget all about conditioned dhammaa and the development of right understanding at this very moment. At a moment of satipa.t.thaana, the place, the time, the object are all suitable, very sapaaya. There is only ever one moment, so 'suitable' can only ever refer to this in an ultimate sense.< Metta Sarah ===== #114436 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro sarahprocter... Dear Morgan, I'm not sure if you're a new member or not, as I see a "Geoff Morrison" posted before from the same email add. Perhaps you're brothers or you've changed your name? Anyway, welcome and why not introduce yourself, letting us know about your interest in the Buddha's teachings? As for the subject headings, don't worry, the Mods will let folk know if there's a problem with them! I agree that it seems like a very strange heading for the thread, but we usually prefer to keep the threads under their original subject headings, so that they can be traced back easily anytime. When the subject headings are changed, the thread 'snaps'. In the end, it's up to the poster if they wish to change it or not. hope to have some Dhamma discussion with you next time. Thx again for your concern. Metta Sarah p.s. Btw, would everyone kindly remember to sign off with a 'real' name and TRIM posts - just keep enough for context! --- On Thu, 7/4/11, Morgan Morrison wrote: From: Morgan Morrison DSG: All of the discussions about the Apple iPhone/iPod Touch application, iPuja Pro, are, in my view, very much OFF TOPIC! #114437 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Eye... sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, I thought of you when I read the following sutta which Ven Samahita posted (#114369). It may be relevant to your question about rupas and namas. Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: > Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, > & manifestation > of the Eye the Ear, the Nose, the Tongue, and the Body is > also the arising > of much Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very > manifestation of > ageing, decay and Death itself! > The ceasing, all subsiding, and complete passing away of > the Eye, the Ear, > the Nose, the Tongue, and the Body is also the Final Ending > of all > Suffering, > the abating of all disease, and the complete passing away > of all ageing, > decay > and even the elimination of the process and necessity of > death itself! ... S: It then goes on to the Mind, but trying to set a good example, trimming! ... > Source: > The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya 26:1 > III 228-9 > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html #114438 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- On Fri, 8/4/11, Christine wrote: >Thanks for the response. Yes, as you say, there'll always be scandals - but this was alerting members to (alleged) deliberate alteration in the wording of the Dhamma - presented to large numbers of people as truth. ... S: Again, I think that due to moha and ditthi (ignorance and wrong view), there have always been attempts to change the words, change the meanings, delete parts of the Tipitaka, alter the Vinaya and so on, since the Buddha first taught. There have always been and will always be those who think they know better than the Buddha and/or just cannot accept the Truth as it is. As the Buddha taught us, whilst developing our understanding, helping others as we can, these are also opportunities to develop metta and karuna for those who speak and act so unwisely and upekkha, in particular. Thx again for sharing your concern. Metta Sarah ======= #114439 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 2:30 am Subject: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Sun, 3/4/11, Ken O wrote: >>KO: samantha is another path, not as what you mean as 8NP, there are two >methods, samantha and vipassana, samantha is the method, path is not the >correct word to use. samandhi is just part of samantha >.... >S: You haven't explained what samadhi is, what samatha is. What kind of dhammas >are they? ... >KO: are dhammas just limited to nama and rupas :-). If yes, pse quote your source, then I quote mine on dhammas in accordance to the commentary ... S: Here, I'm referring to paramattha dhammas. See the intro to Abh. Sangaha where it is explained that these are cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. That's all there is in reality. Anything else is a concept. .... >KO: Oh, now can be a concepts that rise with panna. ... S: Sorry, but no, concepts never rise. They don't exist. They are just experienced by cittas which think. If the thinking is wise thinking, they may be accompanied by panna. Still, the concepts don't rise, don't fall away, don't have the characteristics of anicca or dukkha. ... >KO: now can be a just our conventional understanding of dhamma, now can be breathing meditation or reciting a sutta or memorising a sutta or reciting the 32 parts or listening a dhamma talk, ... S: Yes, as I said, with wise or unwise thinking, with or without panna at each moment of thinking, in between sense door processes and bhavanga cittas. There's been no question about this. ... > also is your now are the direct understanding of nama and rupa or just nimitta. ... S: Only nibbana doesn't have nimitta. For all other dhammas, in particular for all namas, it has to be the nimitta of that dhamma which is experienced. It is the characteristic of the reality which is known, so it doesn't make any difference that it's the nimitta. This is another topic again - somehow it keeps changing:-/ We were discussing the meaning of samatha at this moment. Let's stick to this. Metta Sarah ===== #114440 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 2:32 am Subject: part 2 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O contd ... >>S: Ok, let me help you with the answers to the above. Samatha is passaddhi >cetasika (calm). When the Teachings refer to the development of samatha, it is the development of passaddhi (calm) that is being referred to. At any moments of kusala, there is passaddhi or samatha already. So whenever there is virtue, generosity or bhavana, there is samatha. When it is accompanied by panna (whether the object is a concept or a reality), there may be the beginning of development of samatha bhavana or satipatthana. >>When there is "listening", it depends on the citta at any moment whether it is kusala, whether it is accompanied by samatha or not. Just like now - is the citta kusala and calm or is it akusala and agitated? The "right" or "wrong" practice always comes back to the present moment, the citta right now. ... >KO: Please quote your source that samantha is just passaddhi cetasikas. Just like I ask Jon, where is the text said that samatha is about development of kusala cittas only. .... S: You want quotes. I have no books with me, so let's see what I can do on your various points: 1.Pali dict: "Samatha [fr. sam, cp. BSk. samatha] 1. calm, quietude of heart passaddhi calm of h., serenity of mind" As I wrote before: >S: In CMA, under the 25 beautiful factors (sobhanacetasika) [Ch 11, Compendium of Mental Factors], kaayapassaddhi and cittapassaddhi are listed under the universal beautiful factors (sobhanasaadhaara.na) arising with all kusala cittas (and kiriya cittas of the arahants). The Guide adds this note: "Tranquillity (passaddhi): The twofold tranquility has the characteristic of the quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and consciousness, respectively. Its function is to crush such disturbances. It is manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Its proximate cause is the mental body and consciousness. It should be regarded as opposed to such defilements as restlessness and worry, which create distress." The actual commentary (PTS transl for the same section) refers to the 6 pairs starting with these two cetasikas. It says: "These [twelve states] arise from the conditions of the body and consciousness that are opposed to the disturbances of the elements that cause agitation, and so forth. But 'the body' here means the three aggregates of feeling, etc. And since these pairs of dhammas come together to destroy the dhammas opposed to each of them, only of them is a twofold nature stated, not of concentration, etc." to be contd Metta Sarah ====== #114441 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 2:40 am Subject: part 3 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, contd .... 2. On dhammas from 1st book of Abhidhamma: "Aya~nhi 'kusalaa dhammaa akusalaa dhammaa abyaakataa dhammaa'ti-aadiisu sabhaave dissati. "In the passage 'wholesome dhammas, unwholesome dhammas and indeterminate dhammas', dhamma means: with its own specific nature (or characteristic)." S: Indeterminate dhammas are: vipaka cittas, accompaying cetasikas, kiriyacittas, accompanying cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. In other words, just namas and rupas ... 3. From Nina's message #24200 on meanings of dhamma in different contexts: "The Saddaniti explains dhamma as knowable (neyya): <"Kusalaa dhammaa"ti-aadiisu ~neyye. In a passage as 'wholesome dhammas etc.' the word dhamma means what is knowable, what is to be known.> N: The Saddaniti, as we have seen above, defines dhamma as sabhaava in the same way: N: Thus, all that is real, inside or outside, is classified as these three dhammas: kusalaa dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, abyaakataa dhammaa. They are sabhaava, they each have their own specific nature (or characteristic), and these characteristics are unalterable. Kusala is always kusala, akusala is always akusala. They are not abstractions, when their characteristics appear, they are are to be understood, neyya. Their true nature can be known. The Commentary to the "Muulapariyaayasutta" explains dhamma as neyya: The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to bear." .... S: I could quote more. As Nina wrote, following the above: "Thus, Abhidhamma is not theory, but we have to discover the truth of dhammas gradually. Seeing is avyakata dhamma, it has its own characteristic, it experiences visible object. Its characteristic is unalterable, seeing is always seeing. There is seeing now, it is to be known, neyya. Aversion is akusala dhamma, it has its own unalterable characteristic. When it appears it can be known." ... to be cont Metta Sarah ===== #114442 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 2:45 am Subject: part 4 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, continuing 4. And so we come to the understanding of dhamma in daily life: #33733 "Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2 Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that whatever appears now through one of the six doorways is dhamma. We should ask ourselves to what extent we understand the meaning of dhamma. We have to listen again and consider again what we hear, in order to understand that everything is dhamma. There is dhamma right now, it has arisen because of its appropriate conditions. It could not appear if it had not arisen. If we do not understand what dhamma is, it is useless to study the Tipitaka. Seeing is dhamma, it is a reality that has its own characteristic and that cannot be changed into something else. Seeing sees what appears through the eyesense. Anger is dhamma, it has its own characteristic, it cannot be changed into attachment. When we are angry we usually think of a disagreeable person, but we should know that a person is a concept. Thinking is dhamma but the object of thinking is an idea or concept. When a dhamma appears through one of the six doors understanding of its characteristic can be developed and there is no need for words. The dhamma that arises does so because of its own conditions and it has no owner. It is non-self and it does not belong to a self. All namas and rupas that appear are dhammas. We read in the Abhidhamma as well as in the Suttas about attachment, aversion and ignorance, about kusala and akusala, but the Abhidhamma classifies nama and rupa fully and in detail." .... >KO: I could quote you text about samantha as a basis of insight so i would like you to quote me your textual support. .... S: See the enlightenment factors (bhojjangas) and samatha and vipassana as "yoked" together during the stages of insight and enlightenment. When vipassana is developed, so is samatha - the highest kind of samatha (tranquillity, passaddhi cetasika) and samadhi. From Walshe transl as quoted by Connie: DN. 33.2.3(2) 'Seven factors of enlightenment (sambhojjhangaa): mindfulness, [iii 252] investigation of phenomena, energy, delight (piiti), tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. (Satta bojjha'ngaa - satisambojjha'ngo, dhammavicayasambojjha'ngo , viiriyasambojjha'ngo, piitisambojjha'ngo, passaddhisambojjha'ngo, samaadhisambojjha'ngo, upekkhaasambojjha'ngo). Metta Sarah ===== #114443 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 10:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Howard), --- On Sat, 2/4/11, han tun wrote: >The main point I am looking for is that in the Dedpendent Origination it is not in one-way direction, but also there can be backward direction. For example, the present causes not only condition the future effects in the future life, but also condition the present effects in the present life. [Other issues such as on vi~n~naa.na are only secondary for me.] .... S: I think we've had some examples already - for example, vipaka cittas conditioning cetasikas and rupas and vice-versa in many ways. The rupas condition the cittas throughout life. You may say that these are not examples of "present causes" which "condition the present effects in the present life", but in terms of paccaya they are. Kamma is only one paccaya. We have to also consider the other paccayas. Many, many other examples - feelings as condition for attachment - many present conditions conditioning other dhammas in this life too, like now - eye-sense as condition for seeing, for feelings, for attachment, for new kamma....on and on. .... >If I cannot find anything to support my belief, it will be okay. If I can find something to support my belief, I will be happy. Either way, it is not that important. .... S: You were having a discussion with Howard about rupas conditioned by kamma and citta now. I think it's much easier to find examples of rupas immediately conditioned by citta (for example, when we're angry or happy or move our limbs), than it is by kamma. People get confused and think that whenever there is cetana arising, there is kamma bringing a result, but of course, this is not so. I agree with you that it's not very important. What's important now is the citta at this moment! Metta Sarah ====== #114444 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: What Kamma? sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Wed, 30/3/11, han tun wrote: >Kindly read the following news reports. Wednesday, March 30, 2011 China on Wednesday executed three Filipinos who were convicted of drug smuggling despite last-minute appeals for clemency and political concessions by Philippine leaders, officials said. Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2011 A man convicted of killing two people in a 1989 Phoenix convenience store robbery was executed Tuesday despite last-minute arguments by his attorneys who raised questions over one of the lethal injection drugs and said there was "substantial doubt" about his guilt. >Han: Are the above executions the examples of: (1) the kamma of the past life ripening in this life? or .... S: The cuti citta (death consciousness) can only arise as a result of past kamma from a previous life, just like the patisandhi citta and bhavanga cittas that occurred during the life, experiencing the same object. From the moment of birth, death is assured. .... >(2) the kamma of the present life ripening in the present life? ... S: The deeds performed in this life (good and bad) if completed kamma patha, will likely bring results in future lives, beginning with future births. Other kusala and akusala and partial/weak kamma, may bring some smaller results in this life, support other kamma, or just accumulate as kusala and akusala from moment to moment, life to life. When we think in terms of situations, such as fair and unfair executions, wars, earthquakes and so on, we will only be able to think about a conventional idea of kamma, not the realities. Metta Sarah ====== #114445 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing a waterfall (Nina) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- On Wed, 30/3/11, philip Coristine wrote: >I think hearing hears sound, not a waterfall. .... S: As explained, all sounds are different and experienced accordingly. I like this quote about the crocodile I gave before on the hearing of sound. I thought of you when I just came across it again: DhsA. 314 (The Expositor,PTS) "Again, the crocodile going out, does not see what there is to seize, butgoes after food with eyes shut. But when it has dived into the water a hundred fathoms deep and entered its den and laid itself down, then its mind becomes quieted and it sleeps at ease. So, too, [the sense of] hearing desires a den; it entertains a wish for the cavity of the ear which is dependent on space. The space in the ear-cavity is the cause of hearing a sound. An open space also is operative when [a bhikkhu] is reciting within [a cave]. The sound does not break through the roof of the cave and come out, but going out by the doors and windows strikes the sensitive ear in an elemental series. Immediately, then, those seated at the back of the cave know that so-and-so is reciting......For when the sensitive ear is struck by sound,there is such and such a variety of knowledge as - distant sound, near sound, sound from the further bank, sound from the hither bank. Such knowledge is natural law. What is this natural law? Wherever there is a cavity,from that comes hearing, like the seeing of the (distant) moon and sun, etc. Such is the absence of physical contact in hearing." Metta Sarah ====== #114446 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your further explanations. What I am looking for is in line with the Twenty Modes of Dependent Origination. (1) Past Causes (Atiita Hetu) = avijjaa, sankhaara, ta.nhaa, upaadaana, kamma-bhava. (2) Present Effects (Va.t.tamana Phala) = vi~n~naa.na, naama-ruupa, sa.laayatana, phassa, vedanaa. (3) Present Causes (Va.t.tamana Hetu) = ta.nhaa, upaadaana, kamma-bhava. (4) Future Effects (Anaagata Phala) = vi~n~naa.na, naama-ruupa, sa.laayatana, phassa, vedanaa. According to the above grouping, (1) Past Causes (Atiita Hetu) condition (2) Present Effects (Va.t.tamana Phala) (2) Present Effects (Va.t.tamana Phala) conditon (3) Present Causes (Va.t.tamana Hetu) (3) Present Causes (Va.t.tamana Hetu) condition (4) Future Effects (Anaagata Phala) It is *one-way* direction. What I am *specifically* looking for is if some text *specifically* describes: (3) Present Causes (Va.t.tamana Hetu) condition (2) Present Effects (Va.t.tamana Phala) Anyway, we are on it for many times. I am happy with whatever you have told me. Thank you once again. Respectfully, Han #114447 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New thread / was Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/7/2011 8:35:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: Whatever you think about the doctrine of paramattha dhammas you must agree it makes logical sense. Your view, with respect, does not make sense. You are forced into saying things exist but "not in and of themselves", or "not with their own being". That doesn't make sense; it is doubletalk: it puts the onus (of making sense of it) onto the listener. Ultimately, a thing either exists - in and of itself, with own being - or it doesn't exist. There is no third possibility. ====================================== No. :-) The Buddha taught of a middle-way mode of existence. see, for example, the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. With metta, Howard Teaching by the Middle /By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one./ #114448 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New thread / was Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/7/2011 8:35:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: I don't know what we're going to do with you, Howard! :-) =================================== No "me" - so no problem! ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114449 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Han) - In a message dated 4/8/2011 6:00:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: You were having a discussion with Howard about rupas conditioned by kamma and citta now. I think it's much easier to find examples of rupas immediately conditioned by citta (for example, when we're angry or happy or move our limbs), than it is by kamma. People get confused and think that whenever there is cetana arising, there is kamma bringing a result, but of course, this is not so. ===================================== When anger flares in someone and they throw a punch at the one who annoyed them, that motion, a rupa, occurs as an immediate consequence of volition (as one of many causal conditions), and that volition is kamma. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114450 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 4:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, > >A: So it is an arising of perception or inference? > .... > S: I'm not sure what you mean here exactly. Perception (sanna) >arises with each citta, as you know. So when there is a citta >arising with panna, sanna is also arising with it, performing its >function of marking the object. What I've meant was that bare sensation has no meaningful content by itself, understanding (as in using thinking) comes later and is built from bare perceptions. > As for inference - isn't this a kind of thinking? When panna arises >and understands the dhamma appearing, such as hardness or >temperature, it just understands that characteristic directly. Any >inference or thinking about it arises subsequently. So you say that panna is a pre-thinking (pre-rational) mind moment? If so, how could anyone make out any sense from it? >S: So this is not now anymore, but a concern about the >future/past >again. And what is wrong wit that? We *have* to think about the future (even if it is only few seconds into the future), especially when driving. Also when considering anicca, thought of the future is also used. There is nothing wrong with thinking about what to do next. In fact no purposeful action can be done without it. The Buddha and Arahants did that. They were not "happy-clams" who couldn't think about the future. They just didn't have craving, wrong views and other fetters. Same for "formal" meditations. They did them without falling into self views. Sometimes even the Buddha went on solitary retreats (ex: SN 54.9). So that shows that even for the Buddha, sometimes some places were more preferred than others. Nothing to say about us. Certain external objects can serve as decisive/natural support conditions for defilements, and the Buddha clearly recomended going into seclusion (see satipatthana or anapanasati sutta). Ptsm clearly states that training in higher wisdom can be done through anapanasati. But this of course requires seclusion. This phrase is often mentioned, and the commentaries take it quite literally: ""There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.009.than.html Recently as I was thinking (and reading) more and more about "wisdom", and feel somewhat hypocritical with what I've read. There is all this talk that concepts don't exist, and yet behave like there are concepts. When one eats soup one uses the spoon, and for other kinds of food one uses the fork. So any talk about concepts not existing at all, is being refuted all the time you actually use "conceptual" things, including the computer. Even the Buddha behaved like concepts do exist, and He did go into physical seclusion from time to time. And to use what one believe doesn't exist and all that, is not right. So with all of that, IMHO, an important aspect of wisdom is to actually behave in the way consistent with knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta. If wisdom doesn't bring forth more [proper] revulsion (nibbida) & dispassion (viraga) then it is not really wisdom. Maybe more thinking, that is all... ... With best wishes, Alex #114451 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 1:21 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E (and Howard), I am perplexed by your question: ------------- > RE: Don't we get annihilated too? What is the difference? ------------- KH: You do know the difference, don't you? :-) ------------------------ > RE: Buddha spoke against both little self and eternal self, not just the latter. ------------------------ KH: As far as I know, the only use of the term "little self" has been by Howard when he has been trying to make a point. (And by me in reply to Howard.) I don't know of any other use of that term. ----------------------------------- > RE: He said that the so-called "little personal self" is not a self at all, but just composed of the kandhas. Didn't you catch that part of the teaching? ;-) ----------------------------------- KH: Do you mean the part that says, "There are only dhammas"? Yes, I think I might have mentioned it once or twice. :-) ------------------ <. . .> > RE: If Ken H. could go to the trouble of backing up his view with some good commentary and sub-commentary quotes that outline the existence of dhammas more precisely ------------------ KH: I would go to that trouble *if* the commentaries' word was going to be accepted as final. That might happen one day and, as the saying goes, pigs might fly. :-) Ken H #114452 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:11 am Subject: Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! epsteinrob Hi Christine and All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello all, > > This matter was brought to my notice by Bhante Gavesako over at DW. > > `'It is all over the Thai web, another big scandal. It is Ven. Anil Dhammasakiyo who announced it to the reporters (he is the Nepalese Dhammayut monk who is a good scholar and kind of secretary to the old Sangharaja). Apparently they hired the foreign scholars and gave them salary of 15 thousand baht per month to replace e.g. "anicca dukkha anatta" with "anicca dukkha atta". I have come across some variant readings like that before, obviously errors, and if they discovered more in the Northern Thai manuscripts they might use it as a pretext for claiming their weird teachings as being orthodox. The article also mentions their cooperation with Richard Gombrich and the Buddhist studies centre in Oxford (it was not wise of him and the PTS to get involved with Dhammakaya in the first place). > > This seems to be a clever way of using 'critical scholarship' to promote their teachings about Nibbana as the real 'self': > http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7831 Just to let you know, I went down the thread for a while on Dhammawheel, and the Dhammakaya folks staunchly deny that any such changes were made to their Tipitaka manuscripts. They say this was a false rumour, reported to the press by falsely using the names of one of their Bhikkus. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114453 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:21 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E (and Howard), > > I am perplexed by your question: I am deeply saddened to hear this. That was not the intent of my question. > ------------- > > RE: Don't we get annihilated too? What is the difference? > ------------- > > KH: You do know the difference, don't you? :-) Well let's see: dhammas arise and fall away. People are born, grow old and die. They seem to have a similar fate on a different scale. > ------------------------ > > RE: Buddha spoke against both little self and eternal self, not just the latter. > ------------------------ > > KH: As far as I know, the only use of the term "little self" has been by Howard when he has been trying to make a point. (And by me in reply to Howard.) I don't know of any other use of that term. Oh just say "the personal self" then. No need to quibble. I am distinguishing between the concept of soul or eternal self vs. everyday personal self, like answering to your name. Buddha said there is no self, period, of any kind. That is the point. I used "little self" in response to you. I don't care what you call it. If you were using it to accord with Howard, then you can't expect me not to use it to accord with you. To me, it's a "being or entity" by any other name, and whatever you want to call it, it does not exist. > ----------------------------------- > > RE: He said that the so-called "little personal self" is not a self at all, but just composed of the kandhas. Didn't you catch that part of the teaching? ;-) > ----------------------------------- > > KH: Do you mean the part that says, "There are only dhammas"? Yes, I think I might have mentioned it once or twice. :-) Really? It seems pretty novel! In any case, Ken H., I want to tell you straight out: 'there are only dhammas.' There, I've said it! > ------------------ > <. . .> > > RE: If Ken H. could go to the trouble of backing up his view with some good commentary and sub-commentary quotes that outline the existence of dhammas more precisely > ------------------ > > KH: I would go to that trouble *if* the commentaries' word was going to be accepted as final. That might happen one day and, as the saying goes, pigs might fly. :-) Why is that a pre-condition? Can't we see the experts' descriptions of what you are talking about as part of the discussion? You know, the Dhamma is a possession best enjoyed by sharing. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114454 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 5:24 am Subject: Why three times? robmoult Hi All, We recite the Vandana ("Namo Tassa...") three times. We go for refuge three times. We say "Sadhu" three times. We transfer merit ("Idam me natinam hotu...) three times. Why always three times? Any scriptual support for "three times"? Metta, Rob M :-) #114455 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 5:33 am Subject: Sotapanna seven rebirths robmoult Hi All, There are lots of Sutta references saying that Sotapanna path leads to Nibbana, but I cannot find a specific mention in the Suttas indicating a maximum of seven rebirths (and none in a woeful state). The Encyclopedia of Buddhism refers to S. V, 357 but I cannot seem to find what I am looking for there. Is the idea of maximum of seven rebirths (and none in a woeful state) only found in the commentaries or is there a Sutta reference? I am asking because my wife has heard (through she is not clear) that these "seven rebirths" are not the same as the traditional meaning of rebirths... but all the references that I have seen seem to point to these rebirths being the same as traitional meaning of rebirth, except that there are no conditions for rebirth in an unwholesome plane. Metta, Rob M :-) #114456 From: "Christine" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 7:56 am Subject: Nine Qualities of a Good Benefactor - source?? christine_fo... Hello all, Does anyone know the Pali source of this? Can't find it in the book of nines. The discourse was taught to King Kosala Pasenadi after he had forgotten to offer alms to the 500 monks he had invited. Only Ven nanda continued to visit his palace for alms by the third day without receiving food. Monks should call on a benefactor and visit his house if the benefactor was endowed with nine qualities: 1. He stands up and welcomes him courteously. 2. He pays homage by bowing. 3. He allocates a suitable seat with reverence. 4. He does not hide things that he owns. 5. He donates generously, according to his means. 6. He donates the best of what he has. 7. He gives the donation respectfully. 8. He sits close to listen to the Dhamma attentively, and 9. He listens to the teachings with enthusiasm. The Buddha then related a Jtaka story, which I also need to identify. with metta Chris #114457 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nine Qualities of a Good Benefactor - source?? hantun1 Dear Chris, It is Jataka 346. A dish may be insipid or savoury, The food may be meagre or abundant, Yet if it is given by a friendly hand, Then it becomes a delicious meal. "(Jataka 346) If I can find more, I will let you know. With metta, Han #114458 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nine Qualities of a Good Benefactor - source?? hantun1 Dear Chris, The following is the Pali A.t.thakathaa of Jataka 346 Kesava Jataka. What you are looking for may be in the second paragraph. As I do not have the English translation, or the Burmese translation, I cannot say for sure. [346] 6. Kesavajaatakava.n.nanaa Manussinda.m jahitvaanaati ida.m satthaa jetavane viharanto vissaasabhojana.m aarabbha kathesi. Anaathapi.n.dikassa kira gehe pa~ncanna.m bhikkhusataana.m nibaddhabhatta.m hoti, geha.m niccakaala.m bhikkhusa"nghassa opaanabhuuta.m kaasaavapajjota.m isivaatapa.tivaata.m. Athekadivasa.m raajaa nagara.m padakkhi.na.m karonto se.t.thino nivesane bhikkhusa"ngha.m disvaa "ahampi ariyasa"nghassa nibaddha.m bhikkha.m dassaamii"ti vihaara.m gantvaa satthaara.m vanditvaa pa~ncanna.m bhikkhusataana.m nibaddha.m bhikkha.m pa.t.thapesi. Tato pa.t.thaaya raajanivesane nibaddha.m bhikkhaa diyyati, tivassikagandhasaalibhojana.m pa.niita.m. Vissaasenapi sinehenapi sahatthaa daayakaa natthi, raajayutte daapesi. Bhikkhuu nisiiditvaa bhu~njitu.m na icchanti, naanaggarasabhatta.m gahetvaa attano attano upa.t.thaakakula.m gantvaa ta.m bhatta.m tesa.m datvaa tehi dinna.m luukha.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa bhu~njanti. Athekadivasa.m ra~n~no bahu.m phalaaphala.m aahari.msu. Raajaa "sa"nghassa dethaa"ti aaha. Manussaa bhattagga.m gantvaa ekabhikkhumpi adisvaa "eko bhikkhupi natthii"ti ra~n~no aarocesu.m. "Nanu velaayeva taavaa"ti? "AAma, velaa, bhikkhuu pana tumhaaka.m gehe bhatta.m gahetvaa attano attano vissaasikaana.m upa.t.thaakaana.m geha.m gantvaa tesa.m datvaa tehi dinna.m luukha.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa bhu~njantii"ti. Raajaa "amhaaka.m bhatta.m pa.niita.m, kena nu kho kaara.nena abhutvaa a~n~na.m bhu~njanti, satthaara.m pucchissaamii"ti cintetvaa vihaara.m gantvaa satthaara.m vanditvaa pucchi. Satthaa "mahaaraaja, bhojana.m naama vissaasaparama.m, tumhaaka.m gehe vissaasa.m paccupa.t.thaapetvaa sinehena daayakaana.m abhaavaa bhikkhuu bhatta.m gahetvaa attano attano vissaasika.t.thaane paribhu~njanti. Mahaaraaja, vissaasasadiso a~n~no raso naama natthi, avissaasikena dinna.m catumadhurampi hi vissaasikena dinna.m saamaakabhatta.m na agghati. Poraa.nakapa.n.ditaapi roge uppanne ra~n~naa pa~nca vejjakulaani gahetvaa bhesajje kaaritepi roge avuupasante vissaasikaana.m santika.m gantvaa alo.naka.m saamaakaniivaarayaagu~nceva udakamattasitta.m alo.nakapa.n.na~nca paribhu~njitvaa nirogaa jaataa"ti vatvaa tena yaacito atiita.m aahari. Atiite baaraa.nasiya.m brahmadatte rajja.m kaarente bodhisatto kaasira.t.the braamha.nakule nibbatti, "kappakumaaro"tissa naama.m aka.msu. So vayappatto takkasilaaya.m sabbasippaani ugga.nhitvaa aparabhaage isipabbajja.m pabbaji. Tadaa kesavo naama taapaso pa~ncahi taapasasatehi parivuto ga.nasatthaa hutvaa himavante vasati. Bodhisatto tassa santika.m gantvaa pa~ncanna.m antevaasikasataana.m je.t.thantevaasiko hutvaa vihaasi, kesavataapasassa hitajjhaasayo sasineho ahosi. Te a~n~nama~n~na.m ativiya vissaasikaa ahesu.m. Aparabhaage kesavo te taapase aadaaya lo.nambilasevanatthaaya manussapatha.m gantvaa baaraa.nasi.m patvaa raajuyyaane vasitvaa punadivase nagara.m bhikkhaaya pavisitvaa raajadvaara.m agamaasi. Raajaa isiga.na.m disvaa pakkosaapetvaa antonivesane bhojetvaa pa.ti~n~na.m gahetvaa uyyaane vasaapesi. Atha vassaaratte atikkante kesavo raajaana.m aapucchi. Raajaa "bhante, tumhe mahallakaa, amhe taava upanissaaya vasatha, daharataapase himavanta.m pesethaa"ti aaha. So "saadhuu"ti je.t.thantevaasikena saddhi.m te himavanta.m pesetvaa saya.m ekakova ohiyi. Kappo himavanta.m gantvaa taapasehi saddhi.m vasi. Kesavo kappena vinaa vasanto ukka.n.thitvaa ta.m da.t.thukaamo hutvaa nidda.m na labhati, tassa nidda.m alabhantassa sammaa aahaaro na pari.naama.m gacchati, lohitapakkhandikaa ahosi, baa.lhaa vedanaa vattanti. Raajaa pa~nca vejjakulaani gahetvaa taapasa.m pa.tijaggi, rogo na vuupasammati. Kesavo raajaana.m aaha "mahaaraaja, ki.m mayha.m mara.na.m icchatha, udaahu arogabhaava"nti? "Arogabhaava.m, bhante"ti. "Tena hi ma.m himavanta.m pesethaa"ti. "Saadhu, bhante"ti raajaa naarada.m naama amacca.m pakkaasaapetvaa "naarada, amhaaka.m bhadanta.m gahetvaa vanacarakehi saddhi.m himavanta.m yaahii"ti pesesi. Naarado ta.m tattha netvaa paccaagamaasi. Kesavassapi kappe di.t.thamatteyeva cetasikarogo vuupasanto, ukka.n.thaa pa.tippassambhi. Athassa kappo alo.nakena adhuupanena udakamattasittapa.n.nena saddhi.m saamaakaniivaarayaagu.m adaasi, tassa ta"nkha.na~n~neva lohitapakkhandikaa pa.tippassambhi. Puna raajaa naarada.m pesesi "gaccha kesavassa taapasassa pavatti.m jaanaahii"ti. So gantvaa ta.m aroga.m disvaa "bhante, baaraa.nasiraajaa pa~nca vejjakulaani gahetvaa pa.tijagganto tumhe aroge kaatu.m naasakkhi, katha.m te kappo pa.tijaggii"ti vatvaa pa.thama.m gaathamaaha 177. "Manussinda.m jahitvaana, sabbakaamasamiddhina.m; Katha.m nu bhagavaa kesii, kappassa ramati assame"ti. Tattha manussindanti manussaana.m inda.m baaraa.nasiraajaana.m. Katha.m nu bhagavaa kesiiti kena nu kho upaayena aya.m amhaaka.m bhagavaa kesavataapaso kappassa assame ramatiiti. Eva.m a~n~nehi saddhi.m sallapanto viya kesavassa abhiratikaara.na.m pucchi. Ta.m sutvaa kesavo dutiya.m gaathamaaha 178. "Saaduuni rama.niiyaani, santi vakkhaa manoramaa; Subhaasitaani kappassa, naarada ramayanti ma"nti. Tattha vakkhaati rukkhaa. Paa.liya.m pana "rukkhaa"tveva likhita.m. Subhaasitaaniiti kappena kathitaani subhaasitaani ma.m ramayantiiti attho. Eva~nca pana vatvaa "eva.m ma.m abhiramaapento kappo alo.naka.m adhuupana.m udakasittapa.n.namissa.m saamaakaniivaarayaagu.m paayesi, taaya me sariire byaadhi vuupasamito, arogo jaatomhii"ti aaha. Ta.m sutvaa naarado tatiya.m gaathamaaha 179. "Saaliina.m odana.m bhu~nje, suci.m ma.msuupasecana.m; Katha.m saamaakaniivaara.m, alo.na.m chaadayanti ta"nti. Tattha bhu~njeti bhu~njasi, ayameva vaa paa.tho. Chaadayantiiti chaadayati pii.neti toseti. Gaathaabandhasukhattha.m pana anunaasiko kato. Ida.m vutta.m hoti yo tva.m suci.m ma.msuupasecana.m raajakule raajaaraha.m saalibhatta.m bhu~njasi, ta.m kathamida.m saamaakaniivaara.m alo.na.m pii.neti toseti, katha.m te eta.m ruccatiiti. Ta.m sutvaa kesavo catuttha.m gaathamaaha 180. "Saadu.m vaa yadi vaasaadu.m, appa.m vaa yadi vaa bahu.m; Vissattho yattha bhu~njeyya, vissaasaparamaa rasaa"ti. Tattha yadi vaasaadunti yadi vaa asaadu.m. Vissatthoti niraasa"nko vissaasapatto hutvaa. Yattha bhu~njeyyaati yasmi.m nivesane eva.m bhu~njeyya, tattha eva.m bhutta.m ya.mki~nci bhojana.m saadumeva. Kasmaa? Yasmaa vissaasaparamaa rasaa, vissaaso paramo uttamo etesanti vissaasaparamaa rasaa. Vissaasasadiso hi a~n~no raso naama natthi. Avissaasikena hi dinna.m catumadhurampi vissaasikena dinna.m ambilaka~njiya.m na agghatiiti. Naarado tassa vacana.m sutvaa ra~n~no santika.m gantvaa "kesavo ida.m naama kathesii"ti aacikkhi. Satthaa ima.m dhammadesana.m aaharitvaa jaataka.m samodhaanesi "tadaa raajaa aanando ahosi, naarado saariputto, kesavo bakabrahmaa, kappo pana ahameva ahosi"nti. Kesavajaatakava.n.nanaa cha.t.thaa. ----------- with metta, Han #114459 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 11:33 pm Subject: Not Giving makes Poor! bhikkhu5 Friends: Which Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence future Wealth? A student once asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings here are born into great Wealth, while other human beings are quite Poor? The Blessed Buddha then explained: Here, student, some man or woman does not give any food, drink, clothes, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing or lamps to any recluses or priests! Because of intending and performing such action, at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is reborn in a bad state of deprived difficulty, in a wretched destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells... But if such one at the breakup of the body, after death, is not reborn in an state of deprivation, a painful destination, the purgatory, or in the hells, but instead comes back to the human state, then wherever such miser is reborn as poor, unfortunate, poverty-stricken, and needy #! This is the way, student, that leads to poverty, namely, not giving any food, drink, clothes, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing or lamps to neither recluses nor priests! But here, student, some man or woman does indeed give food, drink, clothes, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing and lamps to both recluses and priests! Because of intending and performing such good action, at breakup of the body, after death, such one reappears in a pleasurable & happy destination, even in a divine dimension! But if at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is not reborn in a happy destination, or in a divine world, but instead comes back to a human state, then wherever such generous one reappears, such one is quite wealthy and rich %! This is the way, student, that leads to being rich and wealthy, namely, giving of food, drink, clothing, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing and lamps to recluses and priests...! Notes: #: Such one escapes hell, because the evil kamma is modified by past good! %: Such one miss heaven, because the good kamma is modified by past evil! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The short speech on Action. MN 135 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn135a.html <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114460 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 1:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Eye... philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for this and the other posts addressed to me, Sarah, really appreciated. Am forming my own useful posts file, in my i-phone, what an intensely addictive and fantastically useful device the i-phone is. But if only oh if only there was an app that I could use to time my meditation sessions! Sigh...I can dream of it, can't I? Maybe one day it will become a reality! Metta, Phil #114461 From: "Christine" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 8:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nine Qualities of a Good Benefactor - source?? christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chris, > > The following is the Pali A.t.thakathaa of Jataka 346 Kesava Jataka. > What you are looking for may be in the second paragraph. > As I do not have the English translation, or the Burmese translation, I cannot say for sure. > .............. > with metta, > Han > Thank you so much Han! Your posts and information have been very helpful. It is wonderful to be able to access those so well-read in the Dhamma. with metta, Chris #114462 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna seven rebirths sarahprocter... Hi Rob M & all, --- On Sat, 9/4/11, robmoult wrote: >There are lots of Sutta references saying that Sotapanna path leads to Nibbana, but I cannot find a specific mention in the Suttas indicating a maximum of seven rebirths (and none in a woeful state). .... S: I don't have texts with me to check, but see this entry from Nyantiloka's dict and the refs: As it is said (e.g. Pug. 37-39; A. III, 87): (1) "If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 fetters (personality-belief, skeptical doubt, attachment to rules and ritual; s. sa.myojana), has entered the stream (to Nibbaana), he is no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, is firmly established, destined to full enlightenment. After having passed amongst the heavenly and human beings only seven times more through the round of rebirths, he puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one with 7 births at the utmost' (sattakkhattu-parama). (2) "If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 fetters.... is destined to full enlightenment, he, after having passed among noble families two or three times through the round of rebirths, puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one passing from one noble family to another' (kola'nkola). (3) "If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 fetters.... is destined to full enlightenment, he, after having only once more returned to human existence, puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one germinating only once more' (eka-biijii). ***** S: Also, for details on this issue, see the translation Nina made of the Thai study on this point: #26406. (I note the refs are from the commentaries, however): >Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part I The Rebirths of the Sotpanna Introduction [1] There are four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, sotpanna, of the once-returner, sakadaagaamii, of the non-returner, anaagaamii, and of the arahat. Defilements are successively eradicated at these four stages of enlightenment. The arahat has eradicated all defilements and thus, there are no more conditions for rebirth. The ariyans of the preceding stages will have to be reborn. The sotpanna will not be reborn more than seven times, and this is the subject of this Issue. ****** Issue of Analysis: Will the streamwinner, sotaapanna, not be reborn more than seven times, or more than that? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: The Sotaapanna will not be reborn more than seven times. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The Saddhammappakaasinii, Commentary to the Path of Discrimination, Patiisambhidaamagga, Commentary to Treatise II, on Views, 706. 2. The Dispeller of Delusion, Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, Decads, 2162. 3. The Pa~ncappakaranatthakathaa, Commentary to the fourth Book of the Abhidhamma, the Puggalapa~n~natti, Human Types, Ch I, by One, 39, single-seeded, ekabiijin. 4.The Sumangalavilaasinii, Commentary to the Dialogues of the Buddha, Commentary to the Questions of Sakka (II, no 21). The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: Several texts of the Commentaries explain about the kinds of rebirth of the sotaapanna. 1. We read in the Saddhammappakaasinii, Commentary to the Path of Discrimination about three types of sotaapanna: 1. The sotaapanna who is reborn seven times at most, sattakkhattuparama. 2. The sotaapanna who goes from clan to clan, kolankola. 3. The sotaapanna with a single seed, ekabiijin. We read: "As to the words, of the person who is reborn seven times at most (sattakkhattuparamassa), this means that seven times is the most, and that he will not assume an eighth rebirth after he became this person. Thus he is a sotaapanna who is reborn seven times at most, sattakkhattuparama. As to the words, of the goer from clan to clan (kolankolassa), this means that he is not born in a lower clan, but only in a wealthy family so that he can realize the fruition of the sotaapanna. This is the sotaapanna who goes from clan to clan, kolankola. As to the words, with a single seed, ekabiijin, it is said that seed means the seed of the khandhas. This sotaapanna has only one seed of the khandhas [2]. He only has this one life and thus he is called 'single seeded'. He has to assume one personality only, he germinates only once. The Buddha created these different names for these sotaapannas. The person who is called 'seven times at most', sattakkhattuparama, has reached just this status. The person who is called 'who goes from clan to clan', kolankola, has reached just this status. The person who is called 'with a single seed', ekabiijin, has reached just this status. These are the names the Buddha gave to those persons. Truly, the Buddha knew what status such and such people would reach and thus he created the appropriate names for them. It is true that the sotaapanna whose understanding is weak will be reborn seven times, and he is called, 'who will be reborn seven times at most. The sotapanna whose understanding is of medium degree will not be reborn after the sixth existence, and he is called 'who goes from clan to clan. The sotaapanna who has strong understanding will only be reborn once, and he is called 'single seeded'. The fact that sotaapannas have different degrees of understanding, weak, medium and strong, is determined by conditions stemming from the past. These three kinds of sotaapanna have been referred to as having rebirth in the sensuous planes. However, many of them were reborn also in the planes of ruupa brahmas and aruupa brahmas [3]." It can be concluded that the sotaapanna does not have an eighth rebirth. He will not be reborn more than seven times, no matter whether he is reborn in the sensuous plane or in the planes of the ruupa brahmas or aruupa brahmas. Footnotes: 1. I wrote this introduction. 2. The khandhas arising and falling away during one single existence. 3. Rebirth in these planes is the result of ruupa-jhaana, material jhaana, and aruupa-jhaana, immaterial jhaana. Nina.< *** S: Also, if you have time, look under "sotapanna" in "Useful Posts" for more refs. Metta Sarah ===== #114463 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:04 am Subject: [dsg] New thread / was Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Ultimately, a thing either exists - in and of itself, with own being - or it doesn't exist. There is no third possibility. > H: No. :-) The Buddha taught of a middle-way mode of existence. see, for example, the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. <. . .> > /By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one./ ---- KH: You have quoted this sutta entirely out of context. The Kaccayanagotta Sutta is one of many suttas that contrast two extremes with the Middle Way. The two extremes involved are ways of regarding a self. They are not ways of regarding paramattha dhammas. When, in other suttas, the Buddha was asked about two ways of regarding paramattha dhammas (did they exist or did they not exist) he answered emphatically that they did exist. SN22:94 Flowers: "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling .. Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." (end quote) Ken H #114464 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New thread / was Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/9/2011 9:04:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Ultimately, a thing either exists - in and of itself, with own being - or it doesn't exist. There is no third possibility. > H: No. :-) The Buddha taught of a middle-way mode of existence. see, for example, the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. <. . .> > /By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one./ ---- KH: You have quoted this sutta entirely out of context. The Kaccayanagotta Sutta is one of many suttas that contrast two extremes with the Middle Way. The two extremes involved are ways of regarding a self. ------------------------------------------------------ That's not so. That is not what this is about. ----------------------------------------------------- They are not ways of regarding paramattha dhammas. When, in other suttas, the Buddha was asked about two ways of regarding paramattha dhammas (did they exist or did they not exist) he answered emphatically that they did exist. SN22:94 Flowers: "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling .. Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." (end quote) ----------------------------------------------------------- Exists conventionally, sure. --------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114465 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 11:28 pm Subject: Every Secret has a Price... bhikkhu5 Friends: Kamma and Fruit = Action and Reaction! The Blessed Buddha once said: Beings are owners of their actions (kamma = karma), inheritor of their actions, are created by their actions, linked to their actions, their actions produce their destiny. Whatever actions they do; good as evil, the resulting reaction and effect will be only theirs! There is one who kills living beings, steals what belongs to others, commits adultery with other's partners; speaks lies, uses divisive and aggressive speech, prattle empty gossip; is covetous, envious, jealous, wicked-minded, & of evil views. Such one is creeping in all actions both bodily, verbal, and mental. Hidden & secret are such one's actions, words, & thoughts, of ulterior & concealed motives. But I tell you: Whoever pursues hidden ways and objects will have to expect one of these two results: Either the torture of hell, or birth among the creeping animals. Thus is it with all rebirth of any being: They will be reborn according to their actions (kamma)... When reborn, they experience the exact effects of their actions. Therefore I declare: Beings are owners of their actions (kamma), inheritor of their actions, are created by their actions, linked to their actions, as a shadow that never leaves! Their actions produce and condition their future destiny. Whatever action they perform; good as evil, the resulting reaction and effects will be only theirs! Kamma causes and creates rebirth! A shadow that never leaves! Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikya AN 10:205 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114466 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:31 am Subject: What I heard, in India, Savatthi. (part I). nilovg Dear friends, In India, Savatthi. (part I) Acharn Sujin: The Buddha has accumulated the perfections for so long, just to attain the four noble Truths, to penetrate the nature of realities. This is so difficult and how could he have done so without having accumulated the perfections? It would not have been possible. People in the Buddha's time had accumulated a great deal of understanding and many of them attained enlightenment through his teachings. He taught for fortyfive years to people of different levels of understanding. Instead of thinking too much about the perfections we should know that these are wholesome deeds through body, speech and mind. These are realities of daily life and they can become perfections. Otherwise people may think: I have to do this or that, but the perfections are kusala in daily life, without the intention, wish or hope to gain anything. Otherwise it would hinder immediately, lobha always hinders. Kusala is not self, it can become one's nature. Every word in the Tipi.taka points to non-self. When one speaks about seeing- consciousness this indicates non-self. Vitakka (thinking) is non- self, lobha is non-self. What is the real goal of study? Understanding and less attachment, from day to day, that is enough. If we think of degrees of insight knowledge or nibbaana, it is beyond our understanding. There has to be a beginning. Does one know while one is reading, whether there is any attachment to having more understanding? The second noble Truth is attachment and when it arises it conditions more and more attachment instead of less. The pa~n~naa that experiences nibbaana at the first stage of enlightenment eradicates lobha that is accompanied by wrong view. One may not have wrong view about other things (such as kamma and vipaaka) but what about the wrong view of self? Seeing arises and falls away, and there is no understanding of seeing as not self. How can there be the understanding of more realities at this moment? The reality appearing at this moment is not yet understood by pa~n~naa, but we should keep on going with confidence, courage and cheerfulness. -------------- Nina. #114467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:39 am Subject: kamma-priduced ruupas. nilovg Dear Vince, > When speaking of kamma-produced ruupa, these are very special ruupas > produced by past kamma, such as eyesense and the other senses. It is > through the senses that vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing can > experience the relevant ruupas. I wonder if colors can be an example on this. When we put a crystal prism in front light and we see the colors (rupas) where before were absent. ------ N: Anything that appears through the eyesense can be seen by seeing- consciousness. We do not have to think of colour being absent before. Whatever appears, appears only for a moment and then it is gone. Nina. #114468 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa'賊'賊aa ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> =============== > >J: OK, interesting. Would you mind giving an example of this so that I can see >what you're getting at. > >I infer from the above that in your view the objects of satipatthana and >vipassana may include concepts. Would you mind saying something about what kinds > >of concepts that would be, and what it is exactly that is known about them. Any >particular sutta refs? Thanks. > >As regards the commentarial assertion that only dhammas can be object of >satipatthana, I think Sarah has already quoted a passage from the commentary to >the Satipatthana Sutta that illustrates this. > >There's also the section in the Vism (at the beginning of Part III 'Panna') that > >explains how the khandhas are the field for the development of insight. > KO: Nope, Sarah quotes basically did not cover the early part of the pointed by the commnetary and the Visud. There is even a speculation about pre-satipatthana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html I let the commentary explains itself since it clearly states about breathing and body parts whereas, I am waiting for the commentary quotes that clearly said satipatthana is just nama and rupa. Ken O #114469 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:06 am Subject: kamma-produced ruupa. nilovg Dear Rob E and Howard, Sorry for the delay, I was away for a week's vacation, just walking. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Op 29-mrt-2011, om 5:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > With regard to the question, in general there are many cases of kamma > > that produces rupa. An everyday example is any intentional moving of a > > body part. (Motion is "the air" element, a type of rupa.) > -------- > N: I understand why you think that when moving of a body part kamma > produces ruupa. You think of cetanaa accompanying each citta. > However, it is citta-produced ruupa, actually citta and accompanying > cetasikas (including cetanaa) play their part in moving. > When speaking of kamma-produced ruupa, these are very special ruupas > produced by past kamma, such as eyesense and the other senses. It is > through the senses that vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing can > experience the relevant ruupas. ..... > ================================ > Thank you for this comment, Nina. At first I thought I understood the > distinction you are making here, but as I think about it further I am not > so certain. > The citta-produced air element that is involved in what we call "the > movement of a body part" does have volition as a condition, does it not? > That is: The movement does have volition as one condition, does it not? If I > desire to walk to somewhere and lift my foot, is not volition an essential > condition in the production of that air element, and is not that volition > kamma? (As you write above, "actually citta and accompanying > cetasikas (INCLUDING CETANAA) play their part in moving." (The > capitalization was added by me, of course, for emphasis.) > Do we reserve the terminology of "kamma-produced rupa" only for cases > of the volition being somewhat far back in time? ------- N: Yes, past kamma. Not volition accompanying citta at the present. We should also remember that ruupa produced by kamma, citta, and nutrition only pertain to ruupas of the body, not to ruupas outside. Temperature produces ruupa of the body as well as ruupa outside. When we think of moving or motion we should not have a mental picture of this. This process does not pertain to conventional truth. The element of wind or motion is part of a group of ruupas consisting of at least eight ruupas. They are just elements and they only last less than a split second. When we just think of someone having the intention to move a part of the body we have a whole story here. Actually we think of a person or self doing something. This is different from understanding paramattha dhammas that do not last at all. Thinking of a story does not help us to see realities as mere elements, to become detached from the idea of self. ---------------------------------- Rob E: This discussion leads me to two additional questions that may be more simple, and perhaps either you or Nina will be able to answer them: 1. I think I have learned that all kamma is volition or intention, but is all intention and volition kamma, or is there volition/intention that does not produce future vipaka? ------- N: Volition accompanying vipaakacitta or kiriyacitta does not produce any result. Volition is a cetasika accompanying each citta and as such it coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas. When it accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta its has a double task. It intends kusala or akusala and it can produce vipaaka later on. --------- R: 2. Does all kamma produce vipaka in the future, or is it possible to sometimes experience the vipaka from a kamma immediately after the kamma takes place? ------- N: Only in the case of lokuttara kamma. Then it is followed immediately by its result in the same process. In other cases, we cannot know which kamma produces at which time its result. This is entirely the field of the Buddhas. And why should we speculate about this? There is vipaaka now while seeing, and is it not enough to know hat it is mere result, not kusala or akusala? Later on our reactions to what is seen arise and these are kusala or akusala. Kusala and akusala are entirely different from vipaaka, their characteristics are different. ------- R: One can sometimes have an experience like think an angry thought and then immediately bump painfully into a wall. That would be a rougher version of the "instant kamma" I am thinking of. ------- N: Impossible to know. But when there are many akusala cittas, past kamma has more opportunity to produce result; only, we cannot possibly know which kamma produces which result. Why should we find out? Let us study the characteristic of the present reality. Speculation about what cannot be known destracts from knowing the present reality. ------- Nina. #114470 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising nilovg Hi Ken O, Op 10-apr-2011, om 11:43 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > I infer from the above that in your view the objects of > satipatthana and > >vipassana may include concepts. Would you mind saying something > about what kinds > > > >of concepts that would be, and what it is exactly that is known > about them. ------- N: Sure, we read about many concepts in this sutta, but the aim is to remind us not to be forgetful of realities. It helps us to see that satipa.t.thaana is very daily, daily life, and I am grateful about this because we are so forgetful. Each passage points to realizing non-self. ------ Nina. #114471 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising ashkenn2k Dear Nina I am not saying understanding realities is not useful for the development of oneself. Rather I said, the text did not confine the understanding of the development of satipatthana is just nama and rupa. the aim of Buddhism is not about understanding of realities, the aim of the Buddhism is to achieve enlightment and that can achieved by either samantha or vipassana. Both methods or ways or what we want to describe, is said clearly in the texts, commentaries and Visud. Ken O > #114472 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:58 pm Subject: I am back. szmicio Hi all, I am back now. Now again I am involved in daily life activities,and I don't like it. My seclusion went good. I took this all very easily. Try to not build to much tensions. I observed the characteristics of different bodily phenomena. At least I was trying. I just learned that they are fall away so no need to be attached to it. I will give my report soon. Now I ve got so much to do after the retreat. That's fine with addictions now. Best wishes Lukas #114473 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa単単aa ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> =============== > >J: As I'll be pointing out to KenO when I get to his posts, it's not correct to >think of reading, studying and discussing Dhamma as activities that are >necessarily kusala and thus as things that are to be "done" or are prerequisites > > >for the development of the path. > >There can obviously be reading of suttas with wrong view of any strength, or >discussing with a lot of mana, and so on. > >Development of the path only comes if, firstly, the teachings have been >heard/read about in a way that is appropriate to one's level of understanding, >and, following that, if what has been heard (and properly understood) is >reflected upon, and so forth. > > >None of this can be achieved by the doing of any particular activity. If one >does happen to hear the teachings explained in a way that is meaningful for >one's present level of understanding, it's the result of past kamma rather than, > > >for example, deciding to listen to a particular recording, attend a discussion >or read a book. The doing of the specific activity is not the determining factor > > >(despite the fact that the hearing of the teachings will inevitably involve some > > >or all such intentional activities). > KO: Oh I thought all intentional activities are wrong, now we have inevitably involved some :-). None of this can be achieved by the doing of any particular activity then I wonder why would disciples would have to go to do routine activities like circle three times the holy place or shrine etc before they set up for alms like or recitation of body parts and many of the disciples gain enlightement doing this as described in Dispeller of Delusion. Or rather it is not the particular activity that matters, it is the dhamma that arise with the activity that matters. Why there is a disagreement in doing any particular activity is largely due to the interpretaton of clinging to rites and rituals. Let us look at the definition from the texts: Buddhist Pyschological Ethics, page 239 [1005] What is perversion as to rule and ritual? The theory, held by recluses and Brahmins outside our doctrine, that holiness is got by rules of moral conduct , that holiness is got by rites, that holiness is got by rules of moral conduct and by rites - this kind of opinion, this walking in mere opinion, this jungle of opinion, this wilderness of opinion, this disorder of opinion, scuffing of opinion, Fetter of opinion, the grip and tenacity of it, the inclination towards it, the being infected by it, this by-path, wrong road, wrongness, this sectarianism, this inverted grasp, this is called the perversion as to rules and rituals Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary page 260 <> If particular activity which consider rituals or rites are all clinging then, how did so many of particular activities of meditations appear in the text in Visud and other texts. Or the clinging of these rituals refer to those outside of the Buddhist dispensation >> =============== > >J: The dhamma that is visible object does not appear by looking at (that is to >say, focussing on) a conventional object that is within the present field of >vision. Such a practice confuses, in my view, the conventional with the >absolute. It assumes that conventional objects are composed of, or can be broken > > >down into, paramattha dhammas. But that's not the case. They are of a different >register altogether. > KO: Why should it be confusing since all our undersanding are just conventional unless one has reached direct experiential understanding of dhamma. Whether one learn this is nama or this is panna etc, this is seeing, they are just conventional understanding, Seeing sees is only at conventional level and our seeing sees are just nimitta of the characteristics of the dhamma and not the direct experience of the characteristics. I am still waiting for your quote the object of mundane panna is just nama and rupa Ken O please quote the text it said that we should not look at conventional object where did the commentary said the practice confuses. Also tell me where in the text said that mundane objects must be nama and rupa and does not contain concepts. What did text said about direct understanding of nama and rupa. is it at the conventional stage or only happen in vipassana Ken O #114474 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> >> KO: You need them to read books and listen to dhamma. without them, panna is >> just undersanding characteristiscs. I forget to say also, you need viriya as >> well because they are the energy or effort. Without, a purpose, a will and >> effort, i wonder how one listen. What need to be developed also depends on the > > >> dhamma that supports it. Once cannot go read books without chanda likewsie >> without chanda one cannot do akusala as well >> =============== > >J: Yes, I've agreed that chanda and viriya are necessary. But the fact is that >these mental factors arise with most moments of consciousness anyway. When the >Buddha speaks about developing these factors, he means developing them as >arising with panna/insight. In all other contexts, they are already present > KO: I have to keep asking this question, can panna arise with concepts? Can these mental factors condition the arising of panna or it must necessary arise with panna. >> =============== >> >J: Again, it's not the intention that makes the difference but the kusala or >> >akusala factors that the intention arises together with. >> >> KO: that is what I said, you just paraphase me, So does what is the >> intentional behaviour of meditaiton and reading books. why formal meditation is >> >> >> aksual while reading is not akusala? this you have yet answered >>> =============== > >J: I've never said that formal meditation is akusala but that reading is not. > >Reading is just another conventional activity, and as such it can be done with >kusala or akusala (or mixed) mindstates. Normally, it will be mostly (or wholly) > >with akusala mindstates. > >If the text being read is, say, a sutta, this does not necessarily make the >accompanying mindstates any more kusala than would otherwise be the case. >Hopefully that would not in fact be so. But let's not forget the possibility, >for example, of wrongly understanding the sutta and thus actually developing >wrong view as a result of the reading. > >What needs to be understood is that the factor that is a factor for the >development of the path is not *reading Dhamma books* or any other conventional >activity, but is *hearing the Dhamma appropriately explained (i.e., explained >appropriately for our particular level of understanding/wrong view) and grasping > >its meaning*. And hearing and understanding the Dhamma means hearing and >understanding (at a basic level) the teaching about the development of the path >leading to release from samsara. > >This kind of hearing cannot be made to occur by reading a chosen book, listening > >to a recording, attending a discussion, etc. > >As regards formal meditation, it depends on what you mean by that. But to my >understanding, the conditions for understanding at some level the true nature of > >a presently arising dhamma (which on a momentary basis constitutes the >development of the path) do not include choosing an object to focus on or, >expressed differently, choosing to focus on attending to whatever object arises. KO: Your understanding is flawed because the text always have supported the development of concentration as the basis of insight or together with insight to achieve enlightment (we are not here saying there is no dry insightors). the meditiation subjects are mostly concepts and these lead to the development of concentration. There is no concern whether the understanding should be nama and rupa, that only happen after one is out of the jhanas as decribe in the text. Again what is factor of the path, is factor of the path exclusive nama and rupa. If it is, how do one first understand, even Ven Sariputta had to start from learning in conventional object many eons ago. Direct understanding cannot arise suddenly but must be developed from inferential learning or conventional learning again and again Ken O #114475 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body ashkenn2k Dear Jon . >> =============== > >J: I'd be happy to comment if you could quote the commentary passage you have in > >mind. Thanks. > >> =============== http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html When there is greed for inanimate things like bowls and robes it is cast out through reflection of two kinds of bringing about detachment for inanimate things, namely those on ownerlessness and temporariness, taught in the section of the enlightenment factors (bojjhanga) in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta. Therefore the thinking on the object (which produces greed), by way of the reflection of impermanence is the different object. Reflection... on ownerlessness and temporariness; this bowl gradually ends up as broken pieces, having changed color, became old, developed cracks and holes or having smashed up; this robe, having faded, worn out will have to be thrown away with the end of a stick, after it is used as a rag to wipe the feet with. If these had an owner, he would prevent them from being destroyed. In this manner should the reflection on ownerlessness be done. And the reflection on temporariness should be done with the thought that these cannot last long, that these are of brief duration. >> > J: To my understanding, if the characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anattaa are >> >>to be >> >> >known, it must be through an awareness of dhammas, not concepts (conventional > >>objects). >> > >> KO: you have yet tell me where did you get this from, I dont see this in the >> comy. Since here we talk about comy, so why dont you give me something to think >> >> >> about and not made such claims that panna could only take dhamma as object. I >> never saw in the comy that panna cannot take concepts and I only heard this >>here >> >> and not in the Abhidhamma texts or comy >> =============== > >J: As already explained, my starting point is that if the characteristics of >anicca, dukkha, anattaa are to be known, it must be through an awareness of >dhammas, not of concepts (conventional objects). > >This is based on the observation that when the 3 characteristics appear in the >suttas, it is (almost) invariably in the context of talk about dhammas. See for >example the sutta passages cited in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary in the entry on >'Ti-lakkhana' (below). > >For further support, see the Vism, beginning of Part III (Panna), where it talks > >about the khandhas as being the field for the development of panna. > KO: Let me quote the Visud on XIV <<7. (iii) What are its characteristics, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Understanding has the charactersitics of penetrating the individual essences of states. Its function is to abolish the darkenss of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words one who is concentrated knows and sees correctly (A V 3) its proximate cause is concentration>> a. Concentration here is jhana and this definitely is about concepts. You will say concentration here is concentration cetasikas, that is not correct because concentration in the texts are always jhanas, as jhanas is the basis of insight. Because it is jhanas that suppressed the hindrances b. Also penetration of the characteristics of the dhamma leads to the the path is the direct understanding of nama and rupa. pg 141, The All Embracing Net of Views, The commentary <> Ken O #114476 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:47 pm Subject: Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body szmicio Hi Ken O, > > pg 141, The All Embracing Net of Views, The commentary > > < > dhammas (paramathadhamma); (1) the charcteristic of specific nature > (sabhavalakkhana); and (2) the general characteristics (samannalakkhana). The > comprehension of the characteristics of the specific nature is direct > experiential knowledge (paccakkanana); the comprehension of the general > characteristic is inferential knowledge (anumananana). Scripture, as a means > for is acquiring wisdom born of learning (sutamayi panna), issues only in > inferential knowledge. But by considering the things learned, one becomes > established in reflective acquiescence, give rise to the wisdom born of > reflection (cintamayi panna), and by meditative development (bhavana), gradually > > achieves direct experiential knowledge.>> L: Well, can u give some more details on those two distinct characteristic of things? What are: suttamayapanna, cintamayapanna, bhavamayapanna? I would be great to here more things on those. Also I was wondering what are those samannalakkhana and sabhavalakkhana? Best wishes Lukas #114477 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >>KO: are dhammas just limited to nama and rupas :-). If yes, pse quote your >>source, then I quote mine on dhammas in accordance to the commentary >> >... >S: Here, I'm referring to paramattha dhammas. See the intro to Abh. Sangaha >where it is explained that these are cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. >That's all there is in reality. Anything else is a concept. >.... KO: I am refering to dhamma as a whole because dhamma is not restricted to just nama and rupa. the scriptures are part of dhamma and concepts are in the scriptures. >>KO: Oh, now can be a concepts that rise with panna. >... >S: Sorry, but no, concepts never rise. They don't exist. They are just >experienced by cittas which think. If the thinking is wise thinking, they may be > >accompanied by panna. Still, the concepts don't rise, don't fall away, don't >have the characteristics of anicca or dukkha. KO: which text said that panna only arise when the characteristics of anicca or dukkha. Or this penetration of the characteristics only arise in the the delimiting of nama and rupa stage. In another way, does that mean panna cannot arise with concept that never arise, then how do one learn Buddhism in the old days since listening is always conceptuals as words are conceptuals. If you said concepts never exist, then how about father, mother, Buddha, are you saying they dont exist? Since they don't exist, why is there a weighty kamma for killing father and mother and causing Buddha to bleed. It should not have happen right? >... >>KO: now can be a just our conventional understanding of dhamma, now can be >>breathing meditation or reciting a sutta or memorising a sutta or reciting the >>32 parts or listening a dhamma talk, >... >S: Yes, as I said, with wise or unwise thinking, with or without panna at each >moment of thinking, in between sense door processes and bhavanga cittas. There's > >been no question about this. KO: there is no need for panna to arise for breathing meditation, please see the commentary to mindfulness, so its Buddha wrong introduce breathing meditation. >... >> also is your now are the direct understanding of nama and rupa or just >>nimitta. >... >S: Only nibbana doesn't have nimitta. For all other dhammas, in particular for >all namas, it has to be the nimitta of that dhamma which is experienced. It is >the characteristic of the reality which is known, so it doesn't make any >difference that it's the nimitta. KO: Yes because there is a difference in nimitta, the nimitta of direct understanding is different from nimitta of inferential understanding. If we use what you have said then all our practise should then be direct understanding of dhamma, then how come it is not, it is because of the different levels of nimittas. >This is another topic again - somehow it keeps changing:-/ We were discussing >the meaning of samatha at this moment. Let's stick to this. KO: I know you want to catch me on this moment. Can enlightment just develop on this moment or though eons. Also this moment can be any object, could paying respect of Buddha or recalling the virtues of Buddha, all conceptuals, or one thinking of respecting their parents, I wonder whether this is not right view. This moment of samantha can be of mindfulness, can be of clear comprehension, can be of virtue. Ken O #114478 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:01 pm Subject: Re: kamma-produced ruupa. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > R: 2. Does all kamma produce vipaka in the future, or is it possible > to sometimes > experience the vipaka from a kamma immediately after the kamma takes > place? > ------- > N: Only in the case of lokuttara kamma. Then it is followed > immediately by its result in the same process. > In other cases, we cannot know which kamma produces at which time its > result. This is entirely the field of the Buddhas. And why should we > speculate about this? There is vipaaka now while seeing, and is it > not enough to know hat it is mere result, not kusala or akusala? > Later on our reactions to what is seen arise and these are kusala or > akusala. Kusala and akusala are entirely different from vipaaka, > their characteristics are different. Thanks for this, and your other comments, Nina. It just helps to clarify the understanding of kamma and vipaka. Glad you are having a nice vacation. I hope you are enjoying your walks. I find walking outdoors to be one of my most pleasant activities. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114479 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:46 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---- <. . .> >> KH: You do know the difference, don't you? :-) > RE: Well let's see: dhammas arise and fall away. People are born, grow old and die. They seem to have a similar fate on a different scale. ----- KH: The difference is; dhammas are real, people are concepts. ---------- <. . .> > RE: Really? It seems pretty novel! In any case, Ken H., I want to tell you straight out: 'there are only dhammas.' There, I've said it! ---------- KH: And I am very glad to hear it. It means there is nothing worth wanting, doesn't it? --------------- <. . .> >> KH: I would go to that trouble *if* the commentaries' word was going to be accepted as final. That might happen one day and, as the saying goes, pigs might fly. :-) > RE: Why is that a pre-condition? Can't we see the experts' descriptions of what you are talking about as part of the discussion? You know, the Dhamma is a possession best enjoyed by sharing. :-) --------------- KH: Now that you have agreed there are only dhammas, I am sure you will agree with everything the commentaries say. You and I will have nothing to argue about. Ken H #114480 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/10/2011 7:47:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: Now that you have agreed there are only dhammas, I am sure you will agree with everything the commentaries say. You and I will have nothing to argue about. ============================ You realize, the, I presume, that there is, thus, no Buddha, no Dhamma, and no Sangha. Also no this world, no next world. Also no ariyans, no DSG, no Khun Sujin. No, ..., well, perhaps you get the point. And yet once again: NO BUDDHA, NO DHAMMA, AND NO SANGHA! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114481 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Robert E), ------ <. . .> > H: You realize, the, I presume, that there is, thus, no Buddha, no Dhamma, and no Sangha. Also no this world, no next world. Also no ariyans, no DSG, no Khun Sujin. No, ..., well, perhaps you get the point. And yet once again: NO BUDDHA, NO DHAMMA, AND NO SANGHA! ------ KH: Yes, I do realise that. Yamaka Sutta: "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." Ken H #114482 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 4/10/2011 8:44:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (and Robert E), ------ <. . .> > H: You realize, the, I presume, that there is, thus, no Buddha, no Dhamma, and no Sangha. Also no this world, no next world. Also no ariyans, no DSG, no Khun Sujin. No, ..., well, perhaps you get the point. And yet once again: NO BUDDHA, NO DHAMMA, AND NO SANGHA! ------ KH: Yes, I do realise that. Yamaka Sutta: "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." Ken H ====================================== So, what, then, are you doing when studying the Dhamma? What IS the Dhamma? And what are you doing when disparaging folks who meditate when there are no such folks??? There IS the Dhamma, there WAS the Buddha, there WAS and IS the Sangha, and in just the same way as there are sights, sounds, tastes and all other sense objects. And what way is that? Indeed, not to be found *in truth and reality," for these are all mentally constructed matters of convention, all fabricated and conventionally separated off from the one and only reality, the unconditioned, indescribable reality, nibbana. With metta, Howard /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) __________________________ /"The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) #114483 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:05 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Hi Robert E, > > ---- > <. . .> > >> KH: You do know the difference, don't you? :-) > > > RE: Well let's see: dhammas arise and fall away. People are born, grow old and die. They seem to have a similar fate on a different scale. > ----- > > KH: The difference is; dhammas are real, people are concepts. What do you suppose is happening during the times that we are busy conceptualizing being born, growing older and then dying. Nothing taking place at all? Are there rupas of physical form that are changing their character so that the concept of aging can be cognized by citta? What do you suppose corresponds to all those changes that appear to take place in our conventional lives? Or is it just pure fantasy, an unrelated hallucination? > ---------- > <. . .> > > RE: Really? It seems pretty novel! In any case, Ken H., I want to tell you straight out: 'there are only dhammas.' There, I've said it! > ---------- > > KH: And I am very glad to hear it. > > It means there is nothing worth wanting, doesn't it? That goes without saying. Doesn't prevent clinging and craving however, does it? That is the difficulty. > --------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: I would go to that trouble *if* the commentaries' word was going to be accepted as final. That might happen one day and, as the saying goes, pigs might fly. :-) > > > RE: Why is that a pre-condition? Can't we see the experts' descriptions of what you are talking about as part of the discussion? You know, the Dhamma is a possession best enjoyed by sharing. :-) > --------------- > > KH: Now that you have agreed there are only dhammas, I am sure you will agree with everything the commentaries say. You and I will have nothing to argue about. Well if that is the case, you don't have to be shy. Share your favorite gems of the commentaries so that we may become more wise. Thanks in advance! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #114484 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Yes, I do realise that. >> Yamaka Sutta: "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." > H: So, what, then, are you doing when studying the Dhamma? ---- KH: There are only dhammas performing their functions. They may create concepts of a person studying dhamma, but there is no such person. ---------------------- > H: What IS the Dhamma? ---------------------- KH: It is the way things are: conditioned dhammas performing their functions. -------------------------- > H: And what are you doing when disparaging folks who meditate when there are no such folks??? -------------------------- KH: That's a loaded question. At those times, I like to think I am discussing wrong understanding, not disparaging people who have wrong understanding. In any case, it's just conditioned moments of seeing and thinking etc. -------------------- > H: There IS the Dhamma, there WAS the Buddha, there WAS and IS the Sangha, and in just the same way as there are sights, sounds, tastes and all other sense objects. -------------------- KH: This is where our discussions regularly hit a brick wall. You are saying there is no difference between concepts and dhammas, and I am saying there is all the difference in the world. --------------------------- >H: And what way is that? Indeed, not to be found *in truth and reality," for these are all mentally constructed matters of convention, all fabricated and conventionally separated off from the one and only reality, the unconditioned, indescribable reality, nibbana. --------------------------- KH: What can I say? That's not the way things are! :-) Ken H #114485 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:11 pm Subject: The Essential & Enlightening Books! bhikkhu5 Friends: What the Blessed Buddha actually said & did: The unsurpassable blissful advantage gained by thorough perusal of these 3 ancient text collections lasts more than this life... Not much else in this petty world give such long-lasting lift of purification and deep guidance! The core Ancient, Authentic, Sacred, and Canonical Buddhist Scriptures: The Long Discourses of the Buddha. Digha Nikya 1996. Tr. by Walshe http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikya. Tr. by Nanamoli. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X A MUST! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. 2000. Tr. by Bodhi. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html For a more serious study of the 2488 years old sacred Buddhist texts, Check: The in 1881 founded Pali Text Society: http://www.palitext.com To study and emulate these ancient sources has more relevance for your personal future well-being than absolutely anything else here in this world! So please dig them. They were made exactly for that good purpose. Yeah! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Essential & Enlightening Books! #114486 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:12 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---- <. . .> > > KH: dhammas are real, people are concepts. > RE: What do you suppose is happening during the times that we are busy conceptualizing being born, growing older and then dying. ---- KH: I have heard it described as an ocean of concepts. ------------------- > RE: Nothing taking place at all? ------------------- KH: Something is taking place, but most of us haven't a clue what it is. We are all at sea. ------------------------- > RE: Are there rupas of physical form that are changing their character so that the concept of aging can be cognized by citta? ------------------------- KH: No, each rupa is entirely new. Even if we are a hundred years old, our present rupa is as fresh and new as if we were children. ---------------------------------- > RE: What do you suppose corresponds to all those changes that appear to take place in our conventional lives? Or is it just pure fantasy, an unrelated hallucination? ---------------------------------- KH: "Pure fantasy and unrelated hallucination" sums it up for me. --------------- >> KH: It means there is nothing worth wanting, doesn't it? > RE: That goes without saying. Doesn't prevent clinging and craving however, does it? That is the difficulty. --------------- KH: Yes, there are always only dhammas, but is there right understanding of those dhammas? Or have we been conditioned to think of a self instead? --------------------- > <. . .> > RE: Well if that is the case, you don't have to be shy. Share your favorite gems of the commentaries so that we may become more wise. > Thanks in advance! :-) -------------------- KH: A long way in advance! :-) I am not just shy, I am also lazy. Ken H #114487 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:25 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > RE: Well if that is the case, you don't have to be shy. Share your favorite gems of the commentaries so that we may become more wise. > > > Thanks in advance! :-) > -------------------- > > KH: A long way in advance! :-) I am not just shy, I am also lazy. Ha ha; well, Ken, I have faith that your cetana will be aroused and you will eventually turn over the texts! :-) Sloth and torpor will never triumph over the Dhamma! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114488 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 4/10/2011 7:47:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > KH: Now that you have agreed there are only dhammas, I am sure you will > agree with everything the commentaries say. You and I will have nothing to > argue about. > ============================ > You realize, the, I presume, that there is, thus, no Buddha, no > Dhamma, and no Sangha. Also no this world, no next world. Also no ariyans, no > DSG, no Khun Sujin. No, ..., well, perhaps you get the point. And yet once > again: NO BUDDHA, NO DHAMMA, AND NO SANGHA! My view of "only dhammas" is a little bit different than Ken H.'s. There is a view of "only dhammas" that concludes that everything we experience in life is a separately produced full-on holographic 3-D hallucination, with no relation to presently arising dhammas. I disagree with this view, as it does not make sense of the dependently arisen quality and logical sequentiality that is exhibited by the "conventional" flow of events, and the stability of the local environment and world of objects. For instance, Ken H. concluded that it was true that the sequence of birth, aging and death was a full-on hallucination with no relation to actual dhammas. So then why don't we experience these "concepts" in a more random order? Is it only because of an exquisitely orchestrated logic of micro-concepts that we seem to get older skin and bones and eventually die, or does it make more sense to say that the cells stop replicating as we age and that our appearance thus changes. In other words, is it more sensible to say that there is some logical actuality to the world of rupas or objects. If that is the case, that we experience conventional life in a kind of ordered, sequential way that seems to follow logical laws, then maybe there is more in common between conventional reality and momentary dhammas. A dhamma is a unit of experience. It does not denote the reality or unreality of that which is the object of perception. My contention is that the events of life do actually take place, but we do not perceive the way in which they actually occur. The view of individual dhammas shows how the actual moments of experience occur when the distortions are removed. Until the time when there is no more movement of consciousness and no more experience occurs, that is the reality that exists for consciousness. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114489 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Alex), --- On Sun, 3/4/11, Ken O wrote: >Kamma is the one that accumulates wisdom from moment to moment and from life to life. Citta does not accumulate, according the to texts. .... S: There are four jatis or 'planes' of cittas - kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. The cetana accompanying the kusala and akusala cittas is the kamma which accumulates and in due course, if sufficiently strong, can bring results by way of vipaka cittas. The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself accumulates when ever it arises. See CMA, chapter one under cittas. In the quote you gave for abhisankhara (formation), this is referring to kamma which brings results. Metta Sarah ===== #114490 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:19 am Subject: [dsg] What I heard, in India, Savatthi. (part 2). nilovg Dear friends, In India, Savatthi (part II). If there is no pa~n~naa, lobha creeps in all the time. There can be a glimpse of understanding, it is not much, it just begins. One knows that one should not regret the past nor think much of the future. Whenever there is awareness it is aware of an object and then it is gone. Understanding this, is the way to have no attachment, not even to the object sati is aware of. Usually there is attachment all the time. When sati is gone there is attachment again and there is a long period without sati, but there can be sati later on. Whatever is experienced is only the sign, the nimitta, of what is arising and falling away. By remembering that it is only the sign that is experienced, one can begin to know that it is just visible object that appears. One lives in the world of thinking all the time. Life is like a dream, each moment is like a dream, because it is gone completely. There is only the remembrance of realities as people and things. When pa~n~naa has become firm and sati can be aware of whatever object appears, it can be known as just a reality. There are different levels of sati: when one listens and there is understanding there is sati but not yet of the level of the characteristic of the reality that sees, or the characteristic of visible object. We should develop our own understanding of the Buddha's teachings, otherwise it is the understanding of other people. What is the use of reading or listening when we do not develop our own understanding? Even if such understanding is slight, it is much better than when there is only other people's understanding. ******** Nina. #114491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body Dear Lukas, Welcome back. I hope your sessions of ten hours sitting in a day were not too bad? Op 10-apr-2011, om 18:47 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: Well, can u give some more details on those two distinct > characteristic of things? What are: suttamayapanna, cintamayapanna, > bhavamayapanna? I would be great to here more things on those. ------ N: Suttamayapa~n~naa, we listen to the Dhamma and hear things we did not hear before. It all begins with listening and reading, with the aim to have more understanding of realities, of the reality appearing at this moment: seeing and visible object, and attachment to what is seen. Hearing, sound, all realities appearing through the six doors. We had never considered this before. We only thought of people and things that seemed to exist, but never paid attention to seeing and hearing as different cittas. If there were no citta the world could not appear. Cintamayapa~n~naa: deeply considering what we heard. Carefully considering each word. If we only listen passively but we never consider the truth of what we heard, understanding could not grow. Also discussing Dhamma and asking questions help us to consider more the truth. Bhavanamayapa~n ~naa: When we have listened to the dDhamma and thoroughly considered it there are the right conditions for the arising of direct awareness of whatever reality appears through one of the six doorways and this is the beginning of bhavanamayapa~n ~naa. Being aware of the present reality, this is the way to develop direct understanding of naama and ruupa. ------- > L: Also I was wondering what are those samannalakkhana and > sabhavalakkhana? --------- N: Sabhavalakkhana: the different characteristics of hardness, visible object, hearing, thinking. They are all different dhammas and by being aware of them when they appear we become more familiar with their different characteristics. Sama~n~na lakkhana: the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa. These can only be realized in the course of the development of insight. The arising and falling away of naama and ruupa cannot be realized when the difference between the characteristics of naama and ruupa has not been precisely known at the first stage of insight. ------ Nina. #114492 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just joining the posting group sarahprocter... Dear Jacob/Jake* --- On Wed, 6/4/11, jacob wrote: >Again thanks for the encouragement. the questions that tend to come up right now are related to; if there are associatted monasteries or centers for the study / practice as described in Khun Suchin's tradition. I have been sincerely developing the intention to "become a monk" for a few years ; and the outcome of my learning and practice was not what i had initially expected. .... S: If you are visiting Bangkok anytime, I recommend you attend one of the Saturday afternoon discussions (in English) at the foundation where K.Sujin teaches. Also, as I said, you can listen to the edited recordings to be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org and also, join in the discussions here! Whatever you do/wherever you go, the practice has to come back to the understanding of present realities now. There will always be expectations and disappointments throughout life! ... >The outcome of my efforts is a dis -illusionment and weariness towards all conceptual forms and intentions related to 5 sense door experiences- that includes the conceptual forms related to "monks" and activities related to "monks" ( which was previously functioning as the objects of passionate and delusional formations and concepts ). .... S: Yes, always clinging, attachments and expectations to stories about various sense door experiences. You're pointing to the Buddha's first two truths - the 5 clung-to khandhas of dukkha. ... >Not that kama chanda is anywhere near exhausted from my mental continuum - quite the contrary, "my" mind is still frequently swarmed by tanha- but theres enough understanding to see all 5 sense door activities are painful and driven by ignorance and lustfullness - even "my" desire to "become a monk" for which my passion is now on the wane. ... S: And as you hint at - the point is that these are just more conditioned dhammas, not belonging to anyone at all! Tanha is so common and natural - anatta. Nothing to be upset about:) .... >For me - When the gross rupas fall away from the mental processes temporarily - it is relative safetey and happiness - all the previously accumulated efforts to learn about what is sila samadhi and panna converge and all gross concepts related there to fall away in the present moment that gives rise to clarity and respite from the arduous and tremendous burning that is thinking born of ayoniso manasikara or paapanca. .... S: And then there can be clinging again to panna, samadhi or anything else. Usually, no one complains about the attachment because of the pleasant feeling. Usually, it's the aversion that we mind about. Regardless of what dhammas arise - whether lobha, dosa, panna or sense experiences - all inherently dukkha on account of their impermanence and none belonging to oneself. .... >Ayoniso manasikara is like a crazy man who wanders around hawaii taking pleasure - he thinks it is very wonderful "place" but actually "hawaii" is only perhaps 1% of a giant mountain that is a volcano and will errupt and wash away everything anytime. There isnt even one moment when such a person is in a good position - yet he thinks he is in paradise. Ugh, for one who has seen the danger in such a "place" there is much sufferring to be joined amoungst those who assume they are well off. .... S: A very graphic metaphor. And we can go further and indiciate that there's ayoniso manasikara (unwise attention) even when there's just a little ignorance or mild attachment, like there is most of the time. Even as I write about the dhamma, there's attachment to the last of the sunset behind the skyscrapers here, a little aversion to the traffic noise and lots of ignorance in between the sense door processes.....all just common, ordinary dhammas. There can be the growth of understanding even now. .... >But I am still learning - indeed not even having left "this shore" I am far away from the "further". And while I am still here on this shore it seems to be a necisary condition to stay here in Thailand , where being somone who is interested in learning Buddha Dhamma is accepted and encouraged. For now I am hoping to find and associate with an educational institution or other appropriate social network institution that will promote the study and development of panna in a pure, unadulterated, non sectarian way - and hopefully gain governmental acceptance to stay here in Thailand based on approval to study from such a group. .... S: You sound like you have a very keen interest in the Dhamma and I hope it works out well for you in Thailand. If you'd like to meet K.Sujin and some English-speaking students in Bangkok, let me know off-list and I'll put you in touch. (Sukin, if you're reading this, you may like to introduce yourself to Jake). .... >Now I am reluctant and ashamed to ordain because i know the anusaya kilesas still frequently give rise to the 5 hindrances for me, and i do not want to stain the image of the thai sangha . None the less, it seems it may be very useful to develop knowledge of cultural conditions to join the sangha at Wat Pah Nana Chat for a limited period of time - so this is what I'm off to next. (conceptually speaking) Hopefully i will be able to be humble and aware, full of shame towards the hindrances , and things will go well. they do not encourage or allow computers there so it may be a bit of time before i can get oppurtunity to join the posting group , but look forward to the time when i have more oppurtunity to share more of my experiences and ask questions related to. .... S: I'm sorry for the delay in my reply. You may have left already for the Wat. Best wishes however it works out. Conditioned dhammas wherever we are. Anusaya kilesas giving rise to the hindrances, as you mention, are bound to be there unless eradicated. Anatta! ... * aka Jake to my hometown family and friends in Boston MA , usa .... S: Perhaps we can be your Dhamma friends. Just let us know which you'd prefer to be addressed by. I appreciate your comments, honest reflections and keen consideration of the Dhamma. Metta Sarah ====== #114493 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:57 pm Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/11/2011 12:02:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Yes, I do realise that. >> Yamaka Sutta: "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." > H: So, what, then, are you doing when studying the Dhamma? ---- KH: There are only dhammas performing their functions. They may create concepts of a person studying dhamma, but there is no such person. ---------------------- > H: What IS the Dhamma? ---------------------- KH: It is the way things are: conditioned dhammas performing their functions. -------------------------------------------------- Ah, it is a certain "way"! What is a "way"? A dhamma, a concept? Neither? What is the thing called "performing" in "performing their functions"? And what are "functions"? What is any of this except thinking, convention, and concept? ----------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- > H: And what are you doing when disparaging folks who meditate when there are no such folks??? -------------------------- KH: That's a loaded question. At those times, I like to think I am discussing wrong understanding, not disparaging people who have wrong understanding. ----------------------------------------------------- I don't believe that. I think you are fooling yourself. I believe you are thinking of people. And, anyway, what sort of thing is "wrong understanding"? Something that occurs and is completed in an infinitesimal fraction of a second or even without any passage of time at all? A reality called a "dhamma"? Does the mere name 'dhamma' serve to impart reality? ---------------------------------------------------- In any case, it's just conditioned moments of seeing and thinking etc. ---------------------------------------------------- The simpler elements, already constructs, are then the ingredients for more complex construction, construction based on interrelationships, and not groundless. Analogy: A building is constructed from simpler constructs such as bricks, mortar, cornices, windows, doors, and so on, assembled in a particular way. These more elementary elements are, indeed, themselves still constructs. -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- > H: There IS the Dhamma, there WAS the Buddha, there WAS and IS the Sangha, and in just the same way as there are sights, sounds, tastes and all other sense objects. -------------------- KH: This is where our discussions regularly hit a brick wall. You are saying there is no difference between concepts and dhammas, and I am saying there is all the difference in the world. --------------------------------------------------- There IS a difference, and I don't say otherwise. What you call paramattha dhammas are certainly simpler, requiring much less mental fabrication for their production, but still matters of mental fabrication and convention. You want things to be simple - all neatly tied up in a tidy package with a single-strand bow. They are not so. They are convoluted, complex, and most untidy - quite messy! Our world, all that we see, hear, sense, and cognize, *all* of it, is a matter of convention and mental construction, and, at heart, unreal. ----------------------------------------------- --------------------------- >H: And what way is that? Indeed, not to be found *in truth and reality," for these are all mentally constructed matters of convention, all fabricated and conventionally separated off from the one and only reality, the unconditioned, indescribable reality, nibbana. --------------------------- KH: What can I say? That's not the way things are! :-) ------------------------------------------------------ And I say that it IS the way things are! I will trot out my choice of suttas to back it up, and you will trot out your reports of what is in the Abhidhamma Pitaka to back up your beliefs. C'est la guerre! ;-) -------------------------------------------------------- Ken H =================================== With metta, Howard P. S. Please seriously contemplate all the sutta quotes I trot out ;-) below. Immerse yourself in them, not fighting them, not constantly looking for refutation or belief-based restatement, but, putting aside resistance for the time being and letting the meaning in the Buddha's words deeply penetrate and germinate. Illusion and Reality /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) __________________________ /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick " this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) _________________________ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," " such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) _________________________ /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) ___________________________ /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #114494 From: Vince Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma-priduced ruupas. Nina wrote: > V: I wonder if colors can be an example on this. When we put a crystal > V: prism in front light and we see the colors (rupas) where before were absent. > ------ > N: Anything that appears through the eyesense can be seen by seeing- > consciousness. We do not have to think of colour being absent before. > Whatever appears, appears only for a moment and then it is gone. > Nina. yes.. I said that because in example, some birds and fishes are able to see the ultra-violet which is invisible to us. Other animals like dogs cannot perceive green. Etc. Even there is some people (achromats) who only can perceive black and white. As colors are defined like "rupa" in the Abhidhamma, Is this variety of the colors experience among beings the kamma-produced ruupa of eyesense? I'm not sure if there is some relation or it can be a different issue. thanks! Vince. #114495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just joining the posting group nilovg Dear Jacob, Op 11-apr-2011, om 12:41 heeft jacob het volgende geschreven: > I have been sincerely developing the intention to "become a monk" > for a few years ; and the outcome of my learning and practice was > not what i had initially expected. > .... N: A difficult decision. One has to find out whether it is one's true accumulation, one's true inclination, to become a monk. It may be useful to discuss monkhood on this list. What is one's aim, why becoming a monk? Is it more favorable for the development of understanding of all realities appearing through the six doors, and why? Best wishes, Nina. #114496 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated Dear Sarah > >>Kamma is the one that accumulates wisdom from moment to moment and from life to > >>life. Citta does not accumulate, according the to texts. >> >.... >S: There are four jatis or 'planes' of cittas - kusala, akusala, vipaka or >kiriya. The cetana accompanying the kusala and akusala cittas is the kamma which > >accumulates and in due course, if sufficiently strong, can bring results by way >of vipaka cittas. >The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana > >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises. > >See CMA, chapter one under cittas. > >In the quote you gave for abhisankhara (formation), this is referring to kamma >which brings results. > KO: I try to search for the statements that javana cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya in the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary and I also try to look at the CMA under cittas where citta could accumulate, I could not find it, could you point to the actual text whether it is written by the commentaries or by the interpretation of B Bodhi. As for panna, usually the text use is about develop the panna and not panna accumulates. If one will infer that this such is accumulation, I dont think I like to argue much on this. The actual technical terms, only kamma accumulates and not other cetasikas and citta unles prove otherwise by the texts. Ken O #114497 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 2 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening Dear Sarah >S: You want quotes. I have no books with me, so let's see what I can do on your >various points: > >1.Pali dict: >"Samatha [fr. sam, cp. BSk. samatha] 1. calm, quietude of heart >passaddhi calm of h., serenity of mind" > >As I wrote before: > >>S: In CMA, under the 25 beautiful factors (sobhanacetasika) [Ch 11, >Compendium of Mental Factors], kaayapassaddhi and cittapassaddhi are >listed under the universal beautiful factors (sobhanasaadhaara.na) arising >with all kusala cittas (and kiriya cittas of the arahants). The Guide adds >this note: > >"Tranquillity (passaddhi): The twofold tranquility has the characteristic >of the quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and >consciousness, respectively. Its function is to crush such disturbances. >It is manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Its proximate cause is the >mental body and consciousness. It should be regarded as opposed to such >defilements as restlessness and worry, which create distress." > >The actual commentary (PTS transl for the same section) refers to the 6 >pairs starting with these two cetasikas. It says: > >"These [twelve states] arise from the conditions of the body and >consciousness that are opposed to the disturbances of the elements that >cause agitation, and so forth. But 'the body' here means the three >aggregates of feeling, etc. And since these pairs of dhammas come together >to destroy the dhammas opposed to each of them, only of them is a twofold >nature stated, not of concentration, etc." KO: that is not the only definition of samatha, there are different meanings to samatha just like there are different meanings to words like samaya and the context it was used. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm In the Treatise of Perfections <> In the Visud, pg 605 XVIII 3. One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is serenity ,should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhanas I think this should suffice there are other references in the texts like in D III 273 etc Ken O #114498 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body Dear Lukas I dont have much on this, this is the the 2nd part which I wrote before in DSG, I believe ot Rob E Then in A Treatise of Paramis, a little bit more details. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm This is an analysis of the sphere of learning: the five aggregates, the twelve sense bases, the eighteen elements, the four truths, the twenty-two faculties, the twelve factors of dependent origination, the foundations of mindfulness, etc., the various classifications of phenomena such as the wholesome, etc., as well as any blameless secular fields of knowledge which may be suitable for promoting the welfare and happiness of beings, particularly grammar. Thus, with wisdom, mindfulness, and energy preceded by skilful means, a bodhisattva should first thoroughly immerse himself in this entire sphere of learning -- through study, listening, memorization, learning, and interrogation; then he should establish others in learning. In this way the wisdom born of learning (sutamayi panna) can be developed. So too, out of his wish for the welfare of others, the bodhisattva should develop the wisdom of ingenuity in creating opportunities to fulfil his various duties to his fellow beings and the skilful means in understanding their happiness and misery. Then he should develop wisdom born of reflection (cintamayi panna) by first reflecting upon the specific nature of the phenomena such as the aggregates, and then arousing reflective acquiescence in them. Next, he should perfect the preliminary portion of the wisdom born of meditation (pubbabhagabhavanapanna) by developing the mundane kinds of full understanding through the discernment of the specific and general characteristics of the aggregates, etc.22 To do so, he should fully understand all internal and external phenomena without exception as follows: "This is mere mentality-materiality (namarupamatta), which arises and ceases according to conditions. There is here no agent or actor. It is impermanent in the sense of not being after having been; suffering in the sense of oppression by rise and fall; and non-self in the sense of being unsusceptible to the exercise of mastery." Comprehending them in this way, he abandons attachment to them, and helps others to do so as well. Entirely out of compassion, he continues to help his fellow beings enter and reach maturity in the three vehicles, assists them to achieve mastery over the jhanas, deliverances, concentrations, attainments, and mundane direct knowledges, and does not desist until he reaches the very peak of wisdom and all the Buddha-qualities come within his grasp. Ken O #114499 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-view & Computer Rage Dear Anothy you asked an intrigueing question, IMHO, be mindful of your rage and reflect on the drawbacks of rage, develop metta to counteract rage. It is the rage you should look at. self view could be understood by understanding of nama or rupa or by understanding through the general characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta or by D.O. (as self view is due to craving or clinging to a self) Ken O > >From: antony272b2 >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, 31 March 2011 17:17:28 >Subject: [dsg] Self-view & Computer Rage > > >Hi, > >For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a >keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me > >do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want >(usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view >and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the >keystroke or mouse-click? > >Thanks / Antony. > #114500 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. Dear Rob E >I wish I had an organized idea of what ancient commentaries were available in >what forms - online, in book only but available for purchase in English; which >are only in Pali and what suttas they correspond to, as well as commentaries on >the Abhidhamma. KO: there are commentaries that are translated, mostly you could get it from PTS or BPS > >I have some ideas, but generally when people give commentary and sub-commentary >quotes, I have no idea where they are getting them from. > >Any thoughts on this from you or others would be appreciated. I guess my first >priority should be the Vism and the commentaries on Anapanasati and Satipatthana > >suttas. Any ideas to what extent the ancient commentaries on these are available > >online or in English print? KO: Only satipatthana could be found on line. Anapanasati - you could get it online which is translated from anicent commentary by Nanamoli published by BPS. B Bodhi in his early days translated a few ancient commentaries of suttas. >When I see you giving the link for Soma or Nanamoli on satipatthana or other >suttas, should I assume this is a more modern commentary? I too am more >interested in the ancient commentaries where they are available. KO: the three links I give you are all ancient commentaries. Look at the commentary translation and forget about the introduction or the preface, look below after the sutta ended, that is where the ancient commentary are being translated Ken O #114501 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO: the three links I give you are all ancient commentaries. Look at the > commentary translation and forget about the introduction or the preface, look > below after the sutta ended, that is where the ancient commentary are being > translated Thank you, I will look those up! Best, Robert E. #114502 From: "azita" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just joining the posting group hallo Jake, I think you should come and join us at the Foundation in Bangkok. We have, usually, very useful dhamma discussion most Sat afternoons. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jacob" wrote: > > Dear Sarah Abbott , > > Again thanks for the encouragement. the questions that tend to come up right now are related to; if there are associatted monasteries or centers for the study / practice as described in Khun Suchin's tradition. I have been sincerely developing the intention to "become a monk" for a few years ; and the outcome of my learning and practice was not what i had initially expected. > #114503 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:28 am Subject: The Luminous Mind! Friends: Luminous is the Mind released by Friendliness! The Blessed Buddha once explained: Whatever meritorious action one performs, all these together are not worth 1/16th part of a mind released into friendliness, since the mind released into friendliness blazes forth, & outshines all with an unsurpassable brilliance... Just as the radiance from all the stars and planets does not match even a 1/16th part of the radiance from the moon, which thus outshines all the stars and planets, similarly; whatever intention making one do meritorious actions, all these together are not worth one-sixteenth fraction, of the mind released by infinite friendliness!!! Since a mind released into friendliness - all alone - friends!! blazes forth, outshine all these with an incomparable radiance... Just as the mighty sun rising at autumn dawn, by making any fog evaporate, scattering any dark thundercloud, makes the sky all blue & clear, so it alone freely shines, blazes in a blue brilliance, - exactly so - whatever thoughts there may be for gaining merit, all together these are not worth one 16th fraction, of a mind released into friendliness!!! Since the mind released into friendliness - all alone - outshines all these with inestimable luminosity! So did the Lord Buddha state this matter, and he further added: For the Noble friend, who by will, who fully aware and deliberately bring infinite, boundless and endless friendliness into being, this mountain like limitless goodwill makes all evil substrate evaporate, & the chains of mind, these mental fetters become thin, slender and slack. If a friend without ill will cares for even one single living being, such friend, through that, becomes quite skilled and clever, so far more for the Noble Friend, who by possessing a caring heart for all sentient beings, without even a single exception, accumulates great, massive, and immense amounts of merit!!! Those gurus and priests who sacrifice life, objects or fire, who bath ceremoniously, devoted to mere forms and empty ritual, blindly attached to and obsessed by culture, tradition of primeval & often unknown origin, do never experience even a 16th of this release of mind by friendliness fully brought into being, just like the vagueness of even all the stars cannot either ever outshine the moon! Since there cannot exist any evil animosity whatsoever, nor enmity at all, neither even an atomic trace of hate in a Nobly Released One, who by caring indiscriminately and infinitely for all living beings, who by possessing such treasure of a mind relinquished by friendliness, simply cannot ever suppress, dominate, harm, or kill even the smallest sentient breathing being! Luminous is a perfectly released mind! <...> Source: The Itivuttaka 27: Thus was it Said: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam鐃hita _/\_ * <....> #114504 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Self-view & Computer Rage Hi Antony, Sorry for the slow reply. --- On Fri, 1/4/11, antony272b2 wrote: >So it's not just a binary decision whether or not to do the keystroke but the intention can be frustrated if there is not sufficient degree of resolve to move the body? And does the teaching on dukkha mean that operating the keyboard and mouse is literally painful? .... S: As I said, "When we understand that the rupas of the body are all conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutriment, it's easier to accept that no being is involved at all!" Moving the body is not just a matter of decision to do so and resolve. The rupas which we call the body are not just conditioned by citta, but by the other factors too. Thinking of hearing - there may be a wish or determination to hear a sound, but if the conditions are not in place, such as the sound itself, the ear-sense as conditioned by kamma and the space or cavity, no hearing will take place. All dhammas arise by particular conditions. When we think about "hitting the keystroke" or "moving the body", there are many different namas and rupas involved. As I wrote before: >S: When we go to make a keystroke, cittas are conditioning rupas, but of course there is much more involved than just intentions to type letters. If our fingers are very cold or we're sick, we can see how in spite of those intentions, kamma, temperature and nutriment are also conditioning rupas and so it seems that the "body doesn't co-operate". After swimming in winter, I find I'm unable to open my front door with the key or a patient after an accident may not be able to move any limbs at all. >S: As for "overcoming the self-view", the only way is to understand dhammas - namas and rupas - when they appear for what they are. Just conditioned dhammas which are experienced, such as the tangible objects of hardness/softness, heat/cold and motion, and those dhammas which can experience objects, such as the bodily experience, the feelings, the thinking or the seeing consciousness now. S: I really think that understanding present dhammas which appear now is the way to overcome ideas of situations as exisiting, ideas of atta. When there is more understanding of these conditioned dhammas, there will be less "computer rage", because there will no longer be the idea that your body, computer or the key-strokes are under your control. Metta Sarah > >A:For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? #114505 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:11 pm Subject: Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body Dear Nina > Welcome back. I hope your sessions of ten hours sitting in a day were > not too bad? L: Yeap this was OK. Not too much difficulties. The problem is only that I lost this concentration now. I am very agitated now and I dont like it. What to do to be less agitated during daily life? I prefer to be a good guy not a bad one. How to be better? Best. Lukas #114507 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:27 pm Subject: Name suggestion for a baby girl! Hello Everyone! Congratulations to all of us! Blessed with a baby girl! Kindly suggest me some names! Regards, Nitesh #114508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:03 am Dear Lukas, Op 12-apr-2011, om 13:11 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: Yeap this was OK. Not too much difficulties. The problem is only > that I lost this concentration now. I am very agitated now and I > dont like it. What to do to be less agitated during daily life? ------- N: From such a situation we can learn. We cannot direct cittas and have concentration at will. Concentration is not something that lasts and that we could possess. Still, we take it for permanent and for self. It is important to have more understanding of conditioned realities, and this is more important than being less agitated. Before hearing the Buddha's teachings we did not know about cittas that are beyond control, so we should be grateful to the Buddha who taught us realities. ------- > > > L: I prefer to be a good guy not a bad one. How to be better? ------ N: By having more understanding of things as they really are: conditioned naama and ruupa. When thinking: I want to be a good person, then we cling to an idea of self who has to be good. Clinging makes things worse. Understanding leads to less clinging. Read what Sarah wrote to Anthony: Sarah to Antony:< I really think that understanding present dhammas which appear now is the way to overcome ideas of situations as exisiting, ideas of atta. When there is more understanding of these conditioned dhammas, there will be less "computer rage"... > N: Instead of computer rage we can fill anything to which we cling. We need patience to face any situation and to learn that whatever happens is conditioned. By conditions you came into contact with Buddhism, lucky guy! -------- Nina. #114509 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Characteristics of cittas? Dear Tim, You ask an interesting question. There was a sutta quote, I forget is about saying the mind is like the monkey moving from one branch to another. The commenary for the Mahanidana sutta:pg 95 <> By reason: if there are many cittas arise at the same time, it would be difficult for one to practise jhanas as jhanas is concentration on a single objects. Many cittas means concentrating on many single objects, that would be mutliplicity and this would not cause jhanas to arise if there are many cittas arise at the same time, then how does kamma condition the arisen of next birth cittas as it would have to condition many birth citta, then which is the one that condition the birth. Ken O >From: Tim Desmond >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2011 06:30:12 >Subject: [dsg] Re: Characteristics of cittas? > > >To Sarah, Nina and anyone else familiar with the primary text of the Abhidhamma. > >I sincerely appreciate your willingness to respond to me and I hope that I don't > >seem impertinent or obtuse. I believe that I do understand the points that you >are making, but they don't seem to directly contradict the possibility of >multiple cittas active at once. > > >My reading of the the quotes you have shared so far describe the process of an >individual citta. One citta manifests and ceases (sometimes in just one >mind-moment) and it conditions future cittas. A mind-moment is a discreet unit >of experience that is extremely small. > > >This all makes perfect sense to me. > >I come from the belief that science and dhamma are both inquiries into the >nature of reality, so their convergences matter a lot to me. > > >The process you both eloquently describe as a citta mirrors almost exactly how a > >single neural network processes information. > >The key difference is between the idea of serial and parallel processing. Serial > >processing is the idea that information is processed in a single steam. Parallel > >processing means that information is processed in multiple streams. In parallel >processing, the various processes happen at the same time, but they are >relatively separate. Nothing that you have said so far necessarily conflicts >with a parallel processing model. > > >When you say that eye-sense-consciousness only has its particular object, I >understand that. Scientists would say the same for a sensory neuron. They would >describe a single neural network's process as something that happens in discreet > >units of time that are extremely small, and that many networks fire just once >and then stimulate another to fire. The process of seeing, from the perspective >of a scientist, is the firing of many neural networks in succession in a way >that mirrors the progression from adverting to sensing to receiving to >investigating, etc. They just say that in a single moment in the brain, many of >these processes are happening at once. > > >I'm wondering if there is anything in the Abhidhamma that conflicts with a >parallel processing model. > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: >> #114510 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Characteristics of cittas? Hi, Ken (and Tim) - In a message dated 4/12/2011 11:50:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Tim, You ask an interesting question. There was a sutta quote, I forget is about saying the mind is like the monkey moving from one branch to another. ------------------------------------------------------ From SN 12.61: "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." ------------------------------------------------------- The commenary for the Mahanidana sutta:pg 95 > By reason: if there are many cittas arise at the same time, it would be difficult for one to practise jhanas as jhanas is concentration on a single objects. Many cittas means concentrating on many single objects, that would be mutliplicity and this would not cause jhanas to arise if there are many cittas arise at the same time, then how does kamma condition the arisen of next birth cittas as it would have to condition many birth citta, then which is the one that condition the birth. Ken O ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114511 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:47 am Subject: Re: Name suggestion for a baby girl! Hi Nitesh, I would consider Neliel, Natalie or Nel. Best wishes Lukas > Congratulations to all of us! Blessed with a baby girl! > > Kindly suggest me some names! Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:54 am Subject: Have a question to Acharn Sujin Hi all I've got a question to AS. Does anyone goes for english meetings in Bkk? My question is: "1. What's the characteristic of seeing? of hearing? etc. This seems like that is a lot of stories after seeing. Shall we try to know seeing or visible object now? Does considering thinking just as a mental phenomena-activity helps to understand more?". Best wishes Lukas #114513 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body Dear Nina, What's the difference between sakaya and atthanu ditthi? > > L: I prefer to be a good guy not a bad one. How to be better? > ------ > N: By having more understanding of things as they really are: > conditioned naama and ruupa. > When thinking: I want to be a good person, then we cling to an idea > of self who has to be good. Clinging makes things worse. > Understanding leads to less clinging. Read what Sarah wrote to Anthony: > Sarah to Antony:< I really think that understanding present dhammas > which appear now is the way to overcome ideas of situations as > exisiting, ideas of atta. When there is more understanding of these > conditioned dhammas, there will be less "computer rage"... > L: What does Sarah mean by present dhammas? I dont feel any dhammas. There is a lot of trash in my head instead. The only thing I can be conscious of is a lot of thinking, concepts. > N: Instead of computer rage we can fill anything to which we cling. > We need patience to face any situation and to learn that whatever > happens is conditioned. By conditions you came into contact with > Buddhism, lucky guy! L: Yeap of course. But there's no time to loose. And I am constantly delecting in pleasantness, even thought I know very well it's impermanent. It would not bother me but I do it purposefully. Best wishes Lukas #114514 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:31 am Subject: Re: Problems again Dear Sarah, Phil > >thanks for the Skype report, I look forward to talking with Lukas too when he gets back, Skype truly is a Dhamma discussion godsend. > .... > S: I think he'd really appreciate that. I gather that there are not too many people in remote Northern Poland with a keen interest in the Dhamma to talk to! It was a very lively discussion and Lukas needs few reminders to remember what is useful and what is real, what the truth is, at this moment. > .... L: I would really appreciate any Dhamma talk. Anytime... Now I've got tough time,...doubts and doubts. Best wishes Lukas #114515 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:04 am Subject: Friendliness Outshines All! Friends: Infinite Friendliness Outshines All! The Blessed Buddha said: May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings one and all, without exception, experience good fortune only. May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikya II, 72 Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. Sutta Nipta I, 8 For one who deliberately and aware, develops Universal Friendliness, Seeing the fading away of clinging, All chains are worn down and broken. Itivuttaka 27 <....> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114516 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:23 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again Hi Lukas I would like to have more live Dhamma discussion too. Plz send me your skype name or ordinary number off list. This week is very busy because of the new school year but next week I can chat. Metta Phil To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: szmicio@... Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:31:39 +0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again Dear Sarah, Phil > >thanks for the Skype report, I look forward to talking with Lukas too when he gets back, Skype truly is a Dhamma discussion godsend. > .... > S: I think he'd really appreciate that. I gather that there are not too many people in remote Northern Poland with a keen interest in the Dhamma to talk to! It was a very lively discussion and Lukas needs few reminders to remember what is useful and what is real, what the truth is, at this moment. > .... L: I would really appreciate any Dhamma talk. Anytime... Now I've got tough time,...doubts and doubts. Best wishes Lukas #114517 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:03 am Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> H: > Please seriously contemplate all the sutta quotes I trot out ;-) > below. Immerse yourself in them, not fighting them, not constantly looking for > refutation or belief-based restatement, but, putting aside resistance for > the time being and letting the meaning in the Buddha's words deeply > penetrate and germinate. ---- KH: What makes you think I do "fight" them or "look for refutation"? As for "restatement" there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, is there? So long as I also agree with the way it was originally stated, it is good to restate. It's probably a necessary part of considering. Can you think of any examples of where I (or anyone) have restated a sutta without also agreeing with the original wording? As for letting the meaning "penetrate" and "germinate", that is the sort of warm and fuzzy attitude I am very wary of. Let's stick with cold hard understanding. :-) Ken H #114518 From: Vince Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Sarah, I have found these comments from Nanavira Thera in "Clearing the Path", p.278) http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_screen-view_v1.pdf these are very coincident which what I wrote you in this thread about the things a Sotapanna is unable to do: --- "I venture to think that if you actually read through the whole of the Vinaya and the Suttas you would be aghast at some of the things a real live sotdpanna is capable of. As a bhikkhu he is capable of suicide (but so also is an arahat"I have already quoted examples); he is capable of breaking all the lesser Vinaya rules (M. 48: i,323-5; A. 111,85: i,231-2); he is capable of disrobing on account of sensual desires (e.g. the Ven. Citta Hatthis叩riputta"A. VI,60: iii,392-9); he is capable (to some degree) of anger, ill-will, jealousy, stinginess, deceit, craftiness, shamelessness, and brazenness (A. 11,16: i,96). As a layman he is capable (contrary to popular belief) of breaking any or all of the five precepts (though as soon as he has done so he recognizes his fault and repairs the breach, unlike the puthujjana who is content to leave the precepts broken). There are some things in the Suttas that have so much shocked the Commentator that he has been obliged to provide patently false explanations (1 am thinking in particular of the arahats suicide in M. 144: iii,266 and in the Sal叩yatana Samy. 87: i55-6O and of a drunken sotdpanna in the Sot叩patti Samy. 24: 375-7). What the sotdpanna is absolutely incapable of doing is the following (M. 115: iii,64-5): (i) To take any determination (sa単khdra) as permanent, (ii) To take any determination as pleasant, (iii) To take any thing (dhamma) as self, (iv) To kill his mother, (iii) To kill his father, (vi) To kill an arahat, (vii) Maliciously to shed a Buddhas blood, (viii) To split the Sangha, (ix) To follow any teacher other than the Buddha. All these things a puthujjana can do. Why am 1 glad that you are shocked to learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the Buddhas Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotdpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotdpanna yourself (or at least to make the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as axiomatic that you cannot succeed. As Kierkegaard puts it, Whatever is great in the sphere of the universally human must... not be communicated as a subject for admiration, but as an ethical requirement. (CU1 p.320)" --- I check my concerns in this issue are the same of what Nanavira writes here. I wonder very much if a popular exaggeration can distort the energy for practice by keeping a non-direct projection of a distorted image about the nature of enlightenment when in fact the best thing can be the lack of anyone. Having the worse scenary of keeping someone (which is really frequent), then it sounds much better keeping a more natural image, to feel it is under our reach of practice as the same Buddha teached in life. I wonder if some exaggerated image was born from devotion and/or superstition (in the case of the East) and from our cultural puritanism rooted in other religions (in the case of the West). I was reviewing your messages but until today I cannot leave my view or I feel I'm not right. So I wonder again if there are more sources to support the view of the impossibility of breaking precepts for sotapanna. Well, I ask you because I'm checking myself reinforcing this position instead leaving it. And maybe I'm wrong It would be of great help getting more cites and sources. Do you know more about it?. It is not really for discussion, just to read them. ** Or if any other person knows more, please write them! thanks in advance best, Vince, #114519 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) Dear pt pg 58, 59 and 60 of The Questions of King Milinda, PTS version <<12. The King said: "What Nagasena is the characteristics mark of mindfulness?" "Repetition, O King, and keeping up." "And how is repetition the mark of mindfulness?" "As mindfulness, O king, springs up in his heart he repeats over the good and evil, right and wrong, sight and important, dark and light qualities, and those that resemble them, saying to himself: "These are the four modes of keeping oneself ready and mindful, these are the four modes of spiritual effort, these are the four bases of extraordinary powers, these the five organs of the moral sense, these the five mental powers, these the eight divisions of hte Excellent Way, this is serenity, this is insight, this is wisdom and this emancipation." Thus does the recluse follow after those qualities that are desirable, and not after those that are not; thus does he cultivate those which ought to be practised and not those which ought not. This is how repetition is the mark of mindfulness." "Give me an illustration." "It is like the treasurer of the imperial sorvan who reminds his royal master early and late of his glory, saying : "So many are thy war elephants, O King, and so many thy cavalry, the war chariots, and thy bowmen, so much the quantity of thy money, and gold, and wealth, may your Majesty keep yourself in mind thereof." "And how Sir, is keeping up a mark of mindfulness?" "As mindfulness springs up in his heart, O King, he searches out the categories of good qualities and their opposites, saying to himself: "Such and such qualities are good, and such bad; such and such qualities are helpful, and such the reverse." Thus does the recluse make what is evil in himself to disappear and keeps up what is good. That is how keeping up is the mark of mindfulness. "Give me an illustration." "It is like the confidential adviser of that imperial sovran who instructs him in good and evil saying: "These things are bad for the kind and these good, these helpful and these the reverse." And Thus the king makes the evil in himself die out, and keeps up the good.">> In Buddhist Psychological Ethics pg 14 PTS <<[14] What on the occasion is the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyam)? The mindfulness which is remembering, calling back to mind: the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of oblivious; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness - this is the faculty of mindfulness that there then is.>> In Expositor page 159, 160 PTS <> Thereafter the story is similar to the above explaining "not floating away" and acquirement pg 194 of Expositor <> Ken O #114520 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) Dear pt I remember i talk to you about the three moments and when does the object being cognised by citta. pg110 The Fruits of Recluseship and its commentaries <> of the Also on another topic about the wisdom of Bodhisattava and the limit of their development wisdom http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html#fn-25 A treatise of paramis <> 25. Purification by knowledge and vision is the supramundane wisdom of the four noble paths. Because this purification issues in the realisation of nibbaana, the bodhisattva-aspirant must stop short of this attainment so that his realisation of nibbaana will coincide with his perfect enlightenment. <<(4) For the perfection of wisdom, the noble qualities of wisdom should be considered, as follows: "Without wisdom, the virtues such as giving do not become purified and cannot perform their respective functions. Just as, without life, the bodily organism loses its luster and cannot perform its proper activities, and as without consciousness the sense faculties cannot exercise their functions in their respective spheres, just so, without wisdom the faculties such as faith, etc., cannot perform their functions. Wisdom is the chief cause for the practice of the other paaramii. For when their wisdom-eyes open up, the great bodhisattvas give even their own limbs and organs without extolling themselves and disparaging others. Like medicine-trees they give devoid of discrimination, filled with joy throughout the three times. By means of wisdom, the act of relinquishing, exercised with skillful means and practiced for the welfare of others, attains the status of a paaramii; but giving for one's own benefit is like an investment. Again, without wisdom virtue cannot be severed from the defilements of craving, etc., and therefore cannot even reach purification, much less serve as the foundation for the qualities of an omniscient Buddha. Only the man of wisdom clearly recognisers the dangers in household life, in the strands of sense pleasure, and in sa.msaara, and sees the benefits in going forth, in attaining the jhaanas, and in realizing nibbaana; and he alone goes forth into homelessness, develops the jhaanic attainments, and, directed toward nibbaana, establishes others therein.>> pg157 The Fruits of Recluseship and its commentaries <> Ken O #114521 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again Dear Lukas, Antony & all, --- On Wed, 13/4/11, Lukas wrote: >Now I've got tough time,...doubts and doubts. .... S: Doubts - just dhammas, not "lukas's" or anyone else's. I thought about both your questions and comments (and Antony's which I was discussing yesterday), as I listened to K.Sujin on audio yesterday. I was outside as I listened, but managed to make a few notes which I'd like to share with you: When we think about going to the secluded place (to develop awareness), understanding is not enough. It must be right understanding which can understand reality now or then, anytime, any place, anywhere, very naturally, because no one can condition anything. No one can condition seeing now, thinking now, sati or panna - just the development of understanding only. Higher sila - not just abstaining from ill deeds intentionally, but by conditions - not self at all. The understanding of no self must be at the very moment of a reality appearing - just one at a time, so the Dhamma is not just for discussion only about the terms and the stories of realities, but it will lead to more understanding of a realtiy at a time. So there's no place for meditation at all. There is no 'meditation centre' because it's the development from this moment to develop direct awareness of a reality when time comes, when panna is ready to understand that. There's no time to waste to think "I'll do" - it's only the thinking moment. This moment is the future of the previous moment, so it succeeds from the previous moment - with all the accumulations. The realities don't know each other - seeing doesn't know hearing! Gain & loss, kamma and so on - we have to understand each moment, whether it's seeing a pleasant or unpleasant object and not involving a whole story. The worldly conditions can point to the result of previous kamma or the present moment of kusala or akusala, the feelings. The wise one is not moved, because no one can escape from the result of kamma and akusala (tendencies). The wise one receives both with right understanding. S: The next one is the one I particularly wished to highlight: ***The more we don't think about ourselves, that's the right way to think about the teachings.**** S: In other words, right understanding leads to less and less thought or concern about "Me". Just a reality - this is the beginning, realising that it's only a dhamma. It's lobha, it's gone, it's dosa, it's gone. Before one can see the characteristic by developing understanding of realities, understand it's just a dhamma. Understanding begins to eliminate the idea of self from it, little by little. (On concerns about having understanding or awareness or trying to check whether there was understanding or awareness) --- just thinking. Was it understanding or awareness? If the answer is 'yes', it conditions more attachment to have such conditions. (Useless!) The teachings lead to detachment. Lobha leads to more lobha. Not courageous enough to understand dhamma (when we) just want self to be this or that! It's lobha instead of understanding when one wishes to have sila, samadhi, theoretical understanding (pariyatti). One has to be very truthful to the truth. Right understanding of realities only at this moment, not meditation at another time. Meditation practice - done by lobha and ignorance. Is it not harmful? And wrong view. Develop understanding - it's the only way to decrease attachment to result. Otherwise, we're always wishing or hoping to have such experiences, but when we can see there is only understanding of reality now, we can see, very slowly, that for it to be developed, there must be hearing, considering, so it's the firm and stable understanding of reality - not the past or future, only the reality now can be the object of understanding. Without understanding, one is enslaved to lobha. Nothing but darkness - one object is experienced at a time and then we think a lot about everything. Khandha - the meaning is that nothing is left after it has gone. Visible object never comes back, sound, thinking never come back. We live with the idea of many things in the world and "I", but actually only darkness (except at the moment visible object is experienced) and the experiencing and nothing is left from moment to moment. Courageous enough to understand that actually there is no one in the world? Metta Sarah p.s These notes are from our recent discussions in Kaeng Krajan with Phil and friends. We hope to upload some of the audio soon. Why not listen to some of the other uploaded audio and share your notes? Also, did you see my summary of our nice tel chat before your trip, Lukas? ================= #114522 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics Hi Howard, #114449 --- On Fri, 8/4/11, upasaka@... wrote: > When anger flares in someone and they throw a punch at the one who annoyed them, that motion, a rupa, occurs as an immediate consequence of volition (as one of many causal conditions), and that volition is kamma. ..... S: Yes, the volition is kamma. The rupas are conditioned by those cittas with anger. The result or consequence of that act of kamma is never immediate however. The only kamma that brings immediate result are the lokuttara cittas which bring instant result (phala), vipaka cittas. Only the rupas of the body are conditioned by kamma and these are all conditioned by kamma of previous lives, such as the eye-sense and masculinity/femininity. Metta Sarah ======= #114523 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 9/4/11, truth_aerator wrote: > >A: So it is an arising of perception or inference? > .... >> S: I'm not sure what you mean here exactly. Perception (sanna) >arises with each citta, as you know. So when there is a citta >arising with panna, sanna is also arising with it, performing its >function of marking the object. ... A:> What I've meant was that bare sensation has no meaningful content by itself, understanding (as in using thinking) comes later and is built from bare perceptions. .... S: What is "bare sensation" or "bare perception"? The Buddha taught about sanna (perception) arising with every citta, experiencing the object of that citta and vedana (feeling) also arising with every citta, experiencing the same object. Neither is "bare". It makes no sense to me. .... >>S: As for inference - isn't this a kind of thinking? When panna arises >and understands the dhamma appearing, such as hardness or >temperature, it just understands that characteristic directly. Any >inference or thinking about it arises subsequently. .... A:>So you say that panna is a pre-thinking (pre-rational) mind moment? .... S: Not exactly. It is a wholesome mental factor arising with certain cittas, understanding the reality appearing now. ... A:>If so, how could anyone make out any sense from it? .... S: Again, it is panna, not anyone, that can understand the characteristic or nature of panna that arises. .... >>S: So this is not now anymore, but a concern about the >future/past >again. ... A:>And what is wrong wit that? We *have* to think about the future (even if it is only few seconds into the future), especially when driving. ... S: There will always be thinking about many objects, including whilst driving! We don't need the Buddha's help to think. The teachings are to help us understand the Truth at this moment. So if the reality now is thinking, this can be known as such. .... A:>Also when considering anicca, thought of the future is also used. ... S: When it is thinking about the future and considering anicca, it is not the understanding of dhammas as arising and falling away. That's all fine as long as we don't confuse it with any understanding. .... A:>There is nothing wrong with thinking about what to do next. In fact no purposeful action can be done without it. The Buddha and Arahants did that. They were not "happy-clams" who couldn't think about the future. They just didn't have craving, wrong views and other fetters. Same for "formal" meditations. They did them without falling into self views. ... S: With understanding of the present realities regardless of the time, place or situation. .... A:>Sometimes even the Buddha went on solitary retreats (ex: SN 54.9). So that shows that even for the Buddha, sometimes some places were more preferred than others. .... S: Sometimes the Buddha abided in phala samapatti cittas. In other words, such cittas (like all other cittas) arose by conditions. There can be awareness of any kind of citta, any kind of dhamma at anytime. There never was and there never will be a Self that can choose what dhammas will arise next. Sabbe dhamma anatta. ... >Nothing to say about us. Certain external objects can serve as decisive/natural support conditions for defilements, and the Buddha clearly recomended going into seclusion (see satipatthana or anapanasati sutta). ... S: It is the accumulation of past defilements that conditions (by natural support) the arising of present and future defilements. Thinking of seclusion with attachment now is a condition for more such attachment in future. ... >Ptsm clearly states that training in higher wisdom can be done through anapanasati. But this of course requires seclusion. .... S: Ptsm clearly states that the objects of higher wisdom are any realities at all appearing now - any khandha whatsoever now can be directly known. It doesn't say that everyone should know the reality of the rupa known as breath now. .... >Recently as I was thinking (and reading) more and more about "wisdom", and feel somewhat hypocritical with what I've read. There is all this talk that concepts don't exist, and yet behave like there are concepts. When one eats soup one uses the spoon, and for other kinds of food one uses the fork. So any talk about concepts not existing at all, is being refuted all the time you actually use "conceptual" things, including the computer. .... S: This is all a misunderstanding of what we've been trying to explain to you. What are the realities when one eats food? What does it say in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta? Does it say one shouldn't use concepts because they are conventional terms and ideas? ... >Even the Buddha behaved like concepts do exist, and He did go into physical seclusion from time to time. And to use what one believe doesn't exist and all that, is not right. ... S: The Buddha never behaved "like concepts do exist" - it only seems that way to moha. ... >So with all of that, IMHO, an important aspect of wisdom is to actually behave in the way consistent with knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta. If wisdom doesn't bring forth more [proper] revulsion (nibbida) & dispassion (viraga) then it is not really wisdom. Maybe more thinking, that is all... ... S: Wisdom cannot be judged by the outer appearances. Metta Sarah p.s. Alex, I'd love you to join us in Bangkok next time! Meanwhile, why not listen to some of the audio discussions we've edited? ========= #114524 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body Dear Lukas, Op 12-apr-2011, om 22:12 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > What's the difference between sakaya and atthanu ditthi? > ------ N: Sakkaya di.t.thi is wrong view with regard to each of the five khandhas we take for self. Attha-nu-di.t.thi is wider, it includes sakkaaya di.t.thi but also realities outside, not only those that are included in the five khandhas one takes for my personality. ------- > > L: What does Sarah mean by present dhammas? I dont feel any > dhammas. There is a lot of trash in my head instead. The only thing > I can be conscious of is a lot of thinking, concepts. > ----- N: The reality appearing just now: seeing or akusala on account of what is seeing, whatever appears now. It has to be now, always now. ------- > > L: But there's no time to loose. And I am constantly delecting in > pleasantness, even thought I know very well it's impermanent. It > would not bother me but I do it purposefully. > -------- I was reading to Lodewijk from my Vipassana letter 9 and I thought of you: --------- Nina. #114525 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Vince, BUt you are not quoting the teachings, only Ven. Nanavira's personal views. I heard these before from someone else. We discussed before about not breaking the precepts. I mentioned this before but have no time to look it up again. Perhaps you can check U.P. in the archives, sotaapanna. Nina. Op 13-apr-2011, om 2:17 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > So I wonder again if there are more sources to support the view of the > impossibility of breaking precepts for sotapanna. Well, I ask you > because I'm > checking myself reinforcing this position instead leaving it. And > maybe I'm > wrong #114526 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for these notes. Good discussions you had! I put them in my files. Nina. Op 13-apr-2011, om 9:34 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I listened to K.Sujin on audio yesterday. I was outside as I > listened, but managed to make a few notes which I'd like to share > with you: #114527 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:38 pm Subject: Re: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) Hi Ken - In a message dated 4/12/2011 8:03:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> H: > Please seriously contemplate all the sutta quotes I trot out ;-) > below. Immerse yourself in them, not fighting them, not constantly looking for > refutation or belief-based restatement, but, putting aside resistance for > the time being and letting the meaning in the Buddha's words deeply > penetrate and germinate. ---- KH: What makes you think I do "fight" them or "look for refutation"? -------------------------------------------------- It seems so to me, though, of course I could be mistaken. I do think that we ALL do this to some degree or other "in defense" of our beliefs. ;-) -------------------------------------------------- As for "restatement" there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, is there? So long as I also agree with the way it was originally stated, it is good to restate. It's probably a necessary part of considering. Can you think of any examples of where I (or anyone) have restated a sutta without also agreeing with the original wording? ----------------------------------------------------- I think this happens much of the time. (I could almost toss a figurative dart, and wherever it lands is a proper target. ;-) We all, it seems to me, constantly restate to accommodate to our own beliefs. ----------------------------------------------------- As for letting the meaning "penetrate" and "germinate", that is the sort of warm and fuzzy attitude I am very wary of. ---------------------------------------------------- You think so! If there is truth in the Buddha's words, wouldn't they elicit understanding so long as we immerse ourselves in them without interposing our own thinking?? I'm talking about contemplation that holds our beliefs and our own thought processes in check. Nothing "warm and fuzzy" about this, and nothing to be afraid of, though it requires some determination and perhaps some courage. --------------------------------------------------- Let's stick with cold hard understanding. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, but that comes about by not be interposing our own thinking. Our thinking accommodates itself to our beliefs and preferences. ------------------------------------------------------ Ken H =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Have a question to Acharn Sujin Dear Lukas, Op 12-apr-2011, om 21:54 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > "1. What's the characteristic of seeing? of hearing? etc. This > seems like that is a lot of stories after seeing. Shall we try to > know seeing or visible object now? Does considering thinking just > as a mental phenomena-activity helps to understand more?". ------ N: Very good, let us wait for Kh Sujin's explanation. Meanwhile others could have a try. You have understood that there is thinking of stories on account of what is seen or heard. When we try to know seeing, there is trying, not seeing. It does not help to try to know. Only when sati of the level of satipatthaana arises the present reality can be understood, be it seeing, hearing or thinking. Nobody can direct the object sati is aware of. When we think of stories, O.K. , the reality is only thinking, a conditioned naama. Understanding this in theory, intellectual understanding, can be a condition for the arising of direct awareness and understanding, but these arise in their own time. All the perfections have to be developed and these can support right understanding. At such moments we are less concerned with the self. The perfections lead to less selfishness. I like to highlight what Sarah quoted from the discussions: < S: The next one is the one I particularly wished to highlight: ***The more we don't think about ourselves, that's the right way to think about the teachings.**** S: In other words, right understanding leads to less and less thought or concern about "Me". Just a reality - this is the beginning, realising that it's only a dhamma. It's lobha, it's gone, it's dosa, it's gone. Before one can see the characteristic by developing understanding of realities, understand it's just a dhamma. Understanding begins to eliminate the idea of self from it, little by little. > Lukas, does this not answer your question? ------ Nina. #114529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Dear Ken O, Op 10-apr-2011, om 12:37 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > the aim of Buddhism is not about understanding of realities, the > aim of the > Buddhism is to achieve enlightment and that can achieved by either > samantha or > vipassana. Both methods or ways or what we want to describe, is > said clearly in > the texts, commentaries and Visud. ------- N: It is not either...or. Even those who developed jhaana still had to develop insight in order to see jhaanacitta as non-self. ------ Nina. #114530 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Dear Nina after jhanas, it would be straight to delimiting nama and rupa. Development of Buddhism is not just nama and rupa, there are other aspects are as important like sila. Even in mindfulness and clear comprehension of samantha, they are equally important to development and not clear comprehension is more important. For those who are capable of jhanas, we should not discourage them or tell them this is wrong and only nama and rupa is the bhavana. We have to look Buddhism objectively, only through objectively we could help more people to develop the faith and thereby follow the path Buddha teach people accordingly to their disposition, similiarly we should follow his example, provide teachings that suit others and help them to understand more and not insisting it is just nama and rupa. Ken O > > >Dear Ken O, >Op 10-apr-2011, om 12:37 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > >> the aim of Buddhism is not about understanding of realities, the >> aim of the >> Buddhism is to achieve enlightment and that can achieved by either >> samantha or >> vipassana. Both methods or ways or what we want to describe, is >> said clearly in >> the texts, commentaries and Visud. >------- >N: It is not either...or. Even those who developed jhaana still had >to develop insight in order to see jhaanacitta as non-self. > >------ >Nina. #114531 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body Dear Nina >> What's the difference between sakaya and atthanu ditthi? >> >------ >N: Sakkaya di.t.thi is wrong view with regard to each of the five >khandhas we take for self. Attha-nu-di.t.thi is wider, it includes >sakkaaya di.t.thi but also realities outside, not only those that are >included in the five khandhas one takes for my personality. >------- KO: In the text, attanuditthi and sakkyaditthi meant the same. I have yet come across it is different. If you have any reference, please kindly tell me so I could look for myself Ken O #114532 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 4 Ken O: concepts can lead to awakening Dear Sarah >.... >>KO: I could quote you text about samantha as a basis of insight so i would like > >>you to quote me your textual support. >> >.... >S: See the enlightenment factors (bhojjangas) and samatha and vipassana as >"yoked" together during the stages of insight and enlightenment. When vipassana >is developed, so is samatha - the highest kind of samatha (tranquillity, >passaddhi cetasika) and samadhi. > >From Walshe transl as quoted by Connie: >DN. 33.2.3(2) 'Seven factors of enlightenment (sambhojjhangaa): >mindfulness, [iii 252] investigation of phenomena, energy, delight >(piiti), tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. > >(Satta bojjha'ngaa - satisambojjha'ngo, dhammavicayasambojjha'ngo , >viiriyasambojjha'ngo, piitisambojjha'ngo, passaddhisambojjha'ngo, >samaadhisambojjha'ngo, upekkhaasambojjha'ngo). KO: You have inferred samatha as passaddhi cetasikas. Let us see how samatha and passadhi are being treated in the texts: Buddhist Psychological Ethics - pg 21 PTS Passadhi [41] - What on that occassion is repose of mental factors (kayapassadhi)? The serenity , the composure which there is one that occassion, the calming, the tranquility, the tranquility of the skandhas of feeling, preception and synergies - this is the serenity of mental factos that there then is [42] What on that occassion is sernity of mind (cittapassadhi)? The serenity, the composure which there is on that occasion the calming, the tranquility, the tranquility of the skandha of mind - this is the serenity of mind that there then is pg 23 [54] What on that occassion is quiet (samatho)? Anwser as for "self collectedness" $11 pg 11 [11] What on that occasion is self collectedness (cittass' ekaggata)? The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on the occassion is the absence of distraction , unperturb mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration , right concentration - this is self collectedness that there then is Dispeller of Delusion pg 107, interestingly there are two tranqualiity in the index, one for passadhi and the other for samantha 431 ..... By the term Right Concentration [are included] the three kinds of concentration begining with that possessed of applied and substained thought, concentration of consciousness, the concentration faculty, the concentration power, and the enlightenment factors of rapture, tranquility, concentration and equanimity. pg 145 570 But this path is both vision and conduct because of the inclusion of Right View and Thinking by vision and of the remaining by states by conduct. Also it is both tranquility (samatha) and insight becuse of the inclusion of those two by the vehicle of insight and of the remaining states by the vehicle of tranquility pg 347 (5) Tranquility (passadhi) 1355 But the arising of tranquility enlightenment factor comes about thus: "there is bodily tranquility, Bhikkhus and mental tranquility. Wise bringing to mind much practised tehrein is the nutriement for the arising of the unarisen tranquility enlightenement facor, or leads to growth, increase, development and perfection of the arisen tranquility enlightenment factor (S v 66) pg 345 (6) Concentration (samadhi) 1363 But the arising of the concentration enlightement factor comes about thus: "There is the sign of tranquility, bhikkhus, the sign of non-distraction. Wise bringng to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of te unarisen concentration enlightenment factor, or leads to the growth, incease, development and perfection of the arisen concentration enlightenment factor (S v 66) 1364 Herein the sign of tranquility is tranquility itself and the sign of non-distraction is in the sense of non-scatterdness Chapter 1 8 Visud. Samatha is translated as serenity 8. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind there described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should having become well established in virture, developed the serenity and insight that are described as concentration and understanding. This is how the Blessed One shows the path of purification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding. chapter 3, 17 Besides they should be understood as classed according to craving and ignorance, and according to whether one has had practise in serenity and insight. For if a man is overwhelmed by craving , his progress is difficult, If not, it is easy. And if he is overwhelmed by ignorance, his direct-knowledge is sluggish. If not, it is swift. And if he has had no practise in serenity, his progress is difficult. If he has, it is easy. And if he has no practise in insight. his direct knowledge is sluggish. If he has. it is swift. >continuing > >4. And so we come to the understanding of dhamma in daily life: >#33733 >"Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2 > >Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that whatever appears now through >one of the six doorways is dhamma. We should ask ourselves to what extent we >understand the meaning of dhamma. We have to listen again and consider again >what we hear, in order to understand that everything is dhamma. There is >dhamma right now, it has arisen because of its appropriate conditions. It >could not appear if it had not arisen. If we do not understand what dhamma >is, it is useless to study the Tipitaka. Seeing is dhamma, it is a reality >that has its own characteristic and that cannot be changed into something >else. Seeing sees what appears through the eyesense. Anger is dhamma, it has >its own characteristic, it cannot be changed into attachment. When we are >angry we usually think of a disagreeable person, but we should know that a >person is a concept. Thinking is dhamma but the object of thinking is an >idea or concept. When a dhamma appears through one of the six doors >understanding of its characteristic can be developed and there is no need >for words. The dhamma that arises does so because of its own conditions and >it has no owner. It is non-self and it does not belong to a self. >All namas and rupas that appear are dhammas. We read in the Abhidhamma as >well as in the Suttas about attachment, aversion and ignorance, about kusala >and akusala, but the Abhidhamma classifies nama and rupa fully and in >detail." KO: As I said, no where in the text said that development of panna is only possible when the object is a paramatha dhamma. Rather the text supported that panna can be developed through concepts as well. Please do quote from the ancient texts and not from AS or other modern teachers as I want to go back to the source and not base on individual intepretation Ken O #114533 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/13/2011 4:06:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, #114449 --- On Fri, 8/4/11, upasaka@... wrote: > When anger flares in someone and they throw a punch at the one who annoyed them, that motion, a rupa, occurs as an immediate consequence of volition (as one of many causal conditions), and that volition is kamma. ..... S: Yes, the volition is kamma. The rupas are conditioned by those cittas with anger. The result or consequence of that act of kamma is never immediate however. The only kamma that brings immediate result are the lokuttara cittas which bring instant result (phala), vipaka cittas. Only the rupas of the body are conditioned by kamma and these are all conditioned by kamma of previous lives, such as the eye-sense and masculinity/femininity. ------------------------------------------------ None of this makes sense to me, Sarah. 1) Would the punching have occurred had their been no volition in that regard. If not, then the punching certainly had the volition as a condition. 2) Do you mean to say in your last sentence that a) what one sees and hears and tastes and smells and thinks are not conditioned by volition at all, and b) the physical sensations one notices are not conditioned by any volition within the same lifetime? What is so special about body-door, and what is the magical mystery of previous lifetimes??? This last business about previous lifetimes sounds more like Theosophy and occultism to me than Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114534 From: philip Coristine Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:30 am Subject: Upadhi (acquisitions) Hi Nina (p.s to Sarah) I hope you and Lodewijk enjoyed some pleasant walking! May I ask you to explain the difference between khandupadhi and abhisankhaarupadhi. I am interested these days in the teaching of "appropriations" or "acquisitions." I think I understand the other two or may ask later as a follow up. Metta, Phil p.s Sarah as you may gyess from this question I am still interested in the "gone never to return" topic, with the new baseball season and other things there haven't been conditions to reflect on your answer, but the day is surely coming.... #114535 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/13/2011 10:11:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Ken O, Op 10-apr-2011, om 12:37 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > the aim of Buddhism is not about understanding of realities, the > aim of the > Buddhism is to achieve enlightment and that can achieved by either > samantha or > vipassana. Both methods or ways or what we want to describe, is > said clearly in > the texts, commentaries and Visud. ------- N: It is not either...or. Even those who developed jhaana still had to develop insight in order to see jhaanacitta as non-self. -------------------------------------------------------- Quite so, Nina. Both wings are needed for a bird to fly. The sutta I copy at the end states the matte4r very clearly, I think. (And note, BTW, that it speaks of meditation needing to be taught.) ------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. ================================== With metta, Howard ____________________________________________________ AN 4.94 PTS: _A ii 93_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_II_utf8.html#pts.093) Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu _息 1998"2011_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations. "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." #114536 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 4/13/2011 10:11:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > Dear Ken O, > Op 10-apr-2011, om 12:37 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > > > the aim of Buddhism is not about understanding of realities, the > > aim of the > > Buddhism is to achieve enlightment and that can achieved by either > > samantha or > > vipassana. Both methods or ways or what we want to describe, is > > said clearly in > > the texts, commentaries and Visud. > ------- > N: It is not either...or. Even those who developed jhaana still had > to develop insight in order to see jhaanacitta as non-self. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Quite so, Nina. Both wings are needed for a bird to fly. The sutta I > copy at the end states the matte4r very clearly, I think. (And note, BTW, > that it speaks of meditation needing to be taught.) > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ > Nina. > ================================== > With metta, > Howard > > ____________________________________________________ > > AN 4.94 > PTS: _A ii 93_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_II_utf8.html#pts.093) > Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > > translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > _息 1998"2011_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) > > > "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the > world. Which four? > "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity > of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened > discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into > phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of > awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither > internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through > heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has > attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena > through heightened discernment. > "The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but > not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an > individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened > discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they > be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will > answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be > regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. > Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the > first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of > awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. > "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through > heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should > approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of > awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to > settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The > other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind > should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this > way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be > concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has > attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena > through heightened discernment. > "As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of > awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he > should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of > awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask > him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? > How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should > fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be > seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & > experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made > to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The > mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in > this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications > should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will > become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight > into phenomena through heightened discernment. > "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of > awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is > to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful > qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations. > "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." This is a most important sutta and I especially thank you for finding it and sharing it. It seems to settle the older conversation we had a year or two ago about the order in which jhana and vipassana needed to be attained, and whether or not they worked in sequence or in tandem. It seems like the Buddha is saying that the order does not matter, as long as the individual who is missing one or the other area or both goes about gaining the skill of those areas he is missing. It is very practical. I like it when Buddha says that if he has jhana but not insight, he should seek out an individual who understands the process of insight and get instruction on how to attain that, and that the one who has both jhana and insight should fine-tune them to end the mental fermentations. It's all put in a way that seems practical and able to be put into practice. It seems that Buddha is not being a theoretician here, but is pointing each person onto the individual pathway they need to complete their path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114537 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? Hello Sarah, all, >A:Ptsm clearly states that training in higher wisdom can be done >through anapanasati. But this of course requires seclusion. > .... > S: Ptsm clearly states that the objects of higher wisdom are any >realities at all appearing now - any khandha whatsoever now can be >directly known. It doesn't say that everyone should know the reality >of the rupa known as breath now. Even when one is born in lower realms or chopping off chicken's head in human realm? While I agree that if one can't change the circumstances, then do the best you can in those circumstances - The Buddha and VsM are clear: There are better places and there are less ideal places. Even the Buddha took some time off, in physical seclusion. Anapanasati, Satipatthana and many other instructions require physical seclusion. No matter how hard it is, no matter how much I would wish that any place (including my bed, I have terrible health) is the best place, the suttas state what they state... With best wishes, Alex #114538 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/13/2011 10:26:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: This is a most important sutta and I especially thank you for finding it and sharing it. --------------------------------------------- :-) --------------------------------------------- It seems to settle the older conversation we had a year or two ago about the order in which jhana and vipassana needed to be attained, and whether or not they worked in sequence or in tandem. It seems like the Buddha is saying that the order does not matter, as long as the individual who is missing one or the other area or both goes about gaining the skill of those areas he is missing. It is very practical. I like it when Buddha says that if he has jhana but not insight, he should seek out an individual who understands the process of insight and get instruction on how to attain that, and that the one who has both jhana and insight should fine-tune them to end the mental fermentations. It's all put in a way that seems practical and able to be put into practice. It seems that Buddha is not being a theoretician here, but is pointing each person onto the individual pathway they need to complete their path. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes! ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114539 From: philip Coristine Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:48 pm Subject: sakkaya ditthi and khandas Hi all Does sakkaya ditthi refer to the khandas as an integral unit or a single event of wrong view towards a particular khanda, for example feeling as self etc... Thanks in advance Metta, Philp R #114540 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 3 to Ken O concepts can lead to awakening Dear Sarah >The Commentary to the "Muulapariyaayasutta" explains dhamma as neyya: in the passage: "All dhammas in all their modes enter the threshold of the >Exalted One's portal of knowledge," it is the knowable. Here the word occurs >in the sense of things endowed with a specific nature (sabhaava). This is >the word-meaning: "They bear their own characteristics, thus they are >dhammas" (attano lakkha.na.m dhaarentii ti dhammaa).> >The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to bear." KO - Using the reference you use above, I extract below the actual text for the meaning of dhamma use as said in the commentary of Muulapariyaayasutta. pg 32, translated by B Bodhi, BPS. CY. The word "dhamma" is found used in the following senses: the scriptures (pariyatti), the (Four Noble) Truths (sacca), concentration (samadhi), wisdom (panna), nature (pakati), things endowed with a specific nature (sabhava), emptiness (sunnata), merit (punna), a discipline offence (apatti), the knowable (neyya) etc. In the passage; "Herein a bhikkhu masters the Dhamma - the suttas, songs, " etc (M.22/1,134), it occurs in the sense of scriptures. "He saw the Dhamma understood the Dhamma" (D.3/i,110) - in the sense of the (Four Noble) Truth. "Those Exalted Ones were of such dhammas" (D.28/iii,100) - concentration. "Truth, dhamma, fortitude, generosity (Jat. v 57) - wisdom. "Of a nature to be born, of a nature to grow old, of a nature to die (D.22/ii,307) - nature. "Wholesome dhammas" (Dhs Matika I) - things endowed with a specific nature. "On that occassion there were dhammas" (Dhs $121 etc) - emptiness. "Dhamma well-practised issues in bliss" (Sn v 184) - merit. "Two dhammas are unfixed." (Vin.iii, 94) - a disciplinary offense. And in the passage: "All dhammas in all their modes enter the threshold of the Exalted One's portal of knowledge," it is the knowable. Here the word occurs in the sense of things endow with a specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkhanam dhaarenti ti dhammaa)>> KO The text explained itself that dhamma is not restricted or only to paramatha dhamma or to just because it bear its own characteristic or endow with a specific nature Ken O #114541 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:52 am Subject: Universal is Genuine Friendliness! Friends: How to train & expand Universal Friendliness! Sitting alone, in silence, each early morning, with closed eyes one wishes: May I radiate and meet only infinite friendliness, kindness, and goodwill! May I & all the various beings on the 31 levels of existence develop & find only the genuine good of infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings on the sense-desire, fine-material, and the formless plane develop & encounter this fine infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in the front, to the right, the back, the left & below as above develop & experience high infinite friendliness, kindness & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe always be fully aware and deeply mindful of this infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe examine all details & subtle aspects of this sublime infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country & universe put enthusiastic effort into their praxis of infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe find enraptured joy & jubilant gladness in this infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country & universe cultivate the tranquillity of quiet, silent & all stilled infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe attain concentrated & absorbed one-pointedness of infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe dwell in undisturbable & imperturbable balance of infinite friendliness, kindness & goodwill! Yeah! Print this out, dwell in each state until deep, use ~ 25-45 minutes. Comment: Universal Friendliness is the 1st endless state (Appama単単) This gradually reduces all hate, anger, irritation, resentment, opposition, stubbornness, mental rigidity, & unhappiness related with these states. Release of Mind by Universal Friendliness (Mett-Ceto-Vimutti) is >16 times more worth, than any merit won by whatever worldly gift or gain... Joining with the 7 links to Awakening will later cause formless jhna ... <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114542 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:41 pm Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: What makes you think I do "fight" them or "look for refutation"? > H: It seems so to me, though, of course I could be mistaken. ---- KH: I think you are mistaken. There are clearly two approaches to Dhamma study: one (the one I subscribe to) is to accept all of the Pali texts as absolute truth. The other (the one you subscribe to) is to pick and choose. ---- > H: I do think that we ALL do this to some degree or other "in defense" of our beliefs. ;-) ---- KH: Maybe I do that subconsciously, but it is not my intention. ------------ <. . .. >> KH: Can you think of any examples of where I (or anyone) have restated a sutta without also agreeing with the original wording? > H: I think this happens much of the time. (I could almost toss a figurative dart, and wherever it lands is a proper target. ;-) ------------ KH: You and some other DSG members freely admit to rejecting parts of the texts (Abhidhamma, commentaries and even some suttas) but apart from that I don't know what you are referring to. --------------------- > H: We all, it seems to me, constantly restate to accommodate to our own beliefs. --------------------- KH: There was a time when I thought that was the way to go. I thought only weak, submissive types followed other people's teachings. Ideally, it seemed to me, we should forge our own paths - albeit while borrowing from "other great minds". :-) -------------------- >> KH: As for letting the meaning "penetrate" and "germinate", that is the sort of warm and fuzzy attitude I am very wary of. > H: You think so! If there is truth in the Buddha's words, wouldn't they elicit understanding so long as we immerse ourselves in them without interposing our own thinking?? -------------------- KH: I don't believe it works that way. Remember the simile of the soup ladle - constantly immersed without ever knowing the taste of soup. Rather than immersing in someone else's understanding we should be developing our own. And that is done by hearing, considering and discussing. ------------------------- > H: I'm talking about contemplation that holds our beliefs and our own thought processes in check. Nothing "warm and fuzzy" about this, and nothing to be afraid of, though it requires some determination and perhaps some courage. ------------------------- KH: It sounds like soup ladles to me. -------------------- >> KH: Let's stick with cold hard understanding. > H: Yes, but that comes about by not interposing our own thinking. Our thinking accommodates itself to our beliefs and preferences. -------------------- KH: I am curious to know how you could immerse yourself in the teachings without thinking about them at the same time. Ken H #114543 From: "James" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Hi Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > I have found these comments from Nanavira Thera in "Clearing the Path", p.278) > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_screen-view_v1.pdf > > these are very coincident which what I wrote you in this thread about the things > a Sotapanna is unable to do: > > --- > "I venture to think that if you actually read through the whole of the Vinaya and > the Suttas you would be aghast at some of the things a real live sotdpanna is > capable of. As a bhikkhu he is capable of suicide (but so also is an arahat"I > have already quoted examples); he is capable of breaking all the lesser Vinaya > rules (M. 48: i,323-5; A. 111,85: i,231-2); he is capable of disrobing on > account of sensual desires (e.g. the Ven. Citta Hatthis叩riputta"A. VI,60: > iii,392-9); he is capable (to some degree) of anger, ill-will, jealousy, > stinginess, deceit, craftiness, shamelessness, and brazenness (A. 11,16: i,96). > As a layman he is capable (contrary to popular belief) of breaking any or all of > the five precepts (though as soon as he has done so he recognizes his fault and > repairs the breach, unlike the puthujjana who is content to leave the precepts > broken). There are some things in the Suttas that have so much shocked the > Commentator that he has been obliged to provide patently false explanations (1 > am thinking in particular of the arahats suicide in M. 144: iii,266 and in the > Sal叩yatana Samy. 87: i55-6O and of a drunken sotdpanna in the Sot叩patti Samy. > 24: 375-7). What the sotdpanna is absolutely incapable of doing is the following > (M. 115: iii,64-5): > > (i) To take any determination (sa単khdra) as permanent, > (ii) To take any determination as pleasant, > (iii) To take any thing (dhamma) as self, > (iv) To kill his mother, > (iii) To kill his father, > (vi) To kill an arahat, > (vii) Maliciously to shed a Buddhas blood, > (viii) To split the Sangha, > (ix) To follow any teacher other than the Buddha. > > All these things a puthujjana can do. Why am 1 glad that you are shocked to > learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me > the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the > Buddhas Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to > put the sotdpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur > to you that it is your duty to become sotdpanna yourself (or at least to make > the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as > axiomatic that you cannot succeed. As Kierkegaard puts it, > Whatever is great in the sphere of the universally human must... not be > communicated as a subject for admiration, but as an ethical requirement. (CU1 > p.320)" > --- > > I check my concerns in this issue are the same of what Nanavira writes here. > I wonder very much if a popular exaggeration can distort the energy for practice > by keeping a non-direct projection of a distorted image about the nature of > enlightenment when in fact the best thing can be the lack of anyone. > Having the worse scenary of keeping someone (which is really frequent), then it > sounds much better keeping a more natural image, to feel it is under our reach > of practice as the same Buddha teached in life. > > I wonder if some exaggerated image was born from devotion and/or superstition > (in the case of the East) and from our cultural puritanism rooted in other > religions (in the case of the West). > I was reviewing your messages but until today I cannot leave my view or I feel > I'm not right. > > So I wonder again if there are more sources to support the view of the > impossibility of breaking precepts for sotapanna. Well, I ask you because I'm > checking myself reinforcing this position instead leaving it. And maybe I'm > wrong > > It would be of great help getting more cites and sources. Do you know more about > it?. It is not really for discussion, just to read them. > > ** Or if any other person knows more, please write them! Everything that Ven. Nanavira writes is correct. A sotapanna isn't a saint who never breaks a single precept. A sotapanna still has the three poisons: anger, greed, and ignorance. How could a person like that NEVER do anything wrong?? It's impossible. The texts which state that the sotapanna's morality is 'spotless', means that the sotapanna always has spotless "intentions" but not necessarily always spotless "actions". A sotapanna always wants to do the right thing but may sometimes do the wrong thing, because of the overwhelming power of anger, greed, or ignorance. But, once the transgression is done, the sotapanna would recognize it, make amends, and resolve to do better in the future. Now, isn't that spotless morality? Tainted morality are those who do bad things and feel no regret or don't recognize that it was bad. I believe that the commentaries got it wrong when they state that the sotapanna can't break any of the precepts. Anyone with an impure mind is bound to break some precepts. Metta, James ps. I post to this group rather infrequently so I may not see a response. Just jumping in with my two cents worth. :-) #114544 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why three times? Hi Rob M, --- On Sat, 9/4/11, robmoult wrote: >We recite the Vandana ("Namo Tassa...") three times. We go for refuge three times. We say "Sadhu" three times. We transfer merit ("Idam me natinam hotu...) three times. Why always three times? Any scriptual support for "three times"? ... S: I don't think anyone replied to this and I'm not sure. I think it's just tradition, though I seem to recall circumambulation around shrines three times in even the ancient commentaries. One example that comes to mind, because I quoted it recently in #113222, was the parinibbana of Dabba: "(Lest it should be asked) what he did after rising into mid-air, he said 'Seated himself in a cross-legged position in the sky, in the air' and so on. Herein: 'attained the element of heat (tejodhaatu.m samaapajjitvaa): attained the attainment consisting of the fourth jhaana in the fire-kasi.na. For the elder, stationed at that time to one side after having saluted the Lord and ***circumambulated him three times by the right***, said: 'Over the hundred thousand kalpas, Lord, that I lived (and) performed meritorious deeds in this place and that with you, I acted with reference to this goal alone; that very same goal has today reached its climax - this is (your) last sight (of me)'. To some amongst those there who were putthujjana monks or sotaapannas and once-returners, there arose great compassion, (whilst) some amongst them ended up weeping...." Perhaps others can recall other examples. Definitely a tradition that goes back at least to the Buddha's time. Metta Sarah p.s hope you saw my reply to the sotapanna and max 7 lives qu - a few days after you posted. ======== #114545 From: "azita" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again Anumodana Sarah, this is great. I have deleted some for the sake of brevity --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Doubts - just dhammas, not "lukas's" or anyone else's. > > I thought about both your questions and comments (and Antony's which I was discussing yesterday), as I listened to K.Sujin on audio yesterday. I was outside as I listened, but managed to make a few notes which I'd like to share with you: > > The worldly conditions can point to the result of previous kamma or the present moment of kusala or akusala, the feelings. The wise one is not moved, because no one can escape from the result of kamma and akusala (tendencies). The wise one receives both with right understanding. > > S: The next one is the one I particularly wished to highlight: > > ***The more we don't think about ourselves, that's the right way to think about the teachings.**** > > S: In other words, right understanding leads to less and less thought or concern about "Me". > > (On concerns about having understanding or awareness or trying to check whether there was understanding or awareness) --- just thinking. Was it understanding or awareness? If the answer is 'yes', it conditions more attachment to have such conditions. (Useless!) The teachings lead to detachment. Lobha leads to more lobha. > > Not courageous enough to understand dhamma (when we) just want self to be this or that! > > Develop understanding - it's the only way to decrease attachment to result. Otherwise, we're always wishing or hoping to have such experiences, but when we can see there is only understanding of reality now, we can see, very slowly, that for it to be developed, there must be hearing, considering, so it's the firm and stable understanding of reality - not the past or future, only the reality now can be the object of understanding. > > Without understanding, one is enslaved to lobha. azita: and with understanding one begins to see jst how enslaved to lobha we really are. I so like the monkey lime simile for lobha. As soon as it arises it is stuck on something/anything and it arises so often in a day. as soon as the eyes open from sleeping there it is - lobha - for that 1st cuppa or whatever!!!! patience, courage and good cheer, azita #114546 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is "direct" understanding? Hi Rob E (& Alex), --- On Fri, 8/4/11, Robert E wrote: >Alex wrote: > >Not every place is an ideal place. That is why the suttas and commentaries often talk about going into physical seclusion and meditating there. The VsM is clear about it, and in certain paragraphs talks about physical impediments. > ... > S: Again, this is just thinking about different places now. Is there any understanding of thinking as just a conditioned dhamma now? ... R:>Can't we do both? Acknowledge that the thought is a thought, and then deal with the physical location as well? .... S: No "we" to do anything. Just conditioned dhammas which can either be understood or continue to arise and fall away in ignorance. Thinking can be understood, seeing can be understood, the various rupas appearing now, whether we sit at the computer or in physical seclusion can be understood. Slowly we can begin to understand that the only seclusion that is of any value is the mental seclusion at a moment of understanding and awareness. This mental seclusion, the living alone with the present citta, can only ever be now. Metta Sarah ===== #114547 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Friends, In Mahaavagga, 55 Sotaapatti sa.myutta, SN 55.1 Cakkavattiraaja Sutta (Wheel-Turning Monarch), the Buddha said about the siila of a Sotaapanna as follows: Ariyakantehi siilehi samannaagato hoti akha.n.dehi acchiddehi asabalehi akammaasehi bhujissehi vi~n~nuppasatthehi aparaama.t.thehi samaadhisa.mvattanikehi. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translation: He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration. [Note 320] [Note 320] Spk says that noble ones do not violate (na kopenti) the Five Precepts even when they pass on to a new existence; hence these virtues are dear to them. --------------- Han: From the above statements, the reader may draw his/her own conclusion with regard to the type of siila that a Sotaapanna possesses. with metta, Han #114548 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:10 pm Subject: Re: Have a question to Acharn Sujin Dear Nina, > S: In other words, right understanding leads to less and less thought > or concern about "Me". > > Just a reality - this is the beginning, realising that it's only a > dhamma. It's lobha, it's gone, it's dosa, it's gone. Before one can > see the characteristic by developing understanding of realities, > understand it's just a dhamma. Understanding begins to eliminate the > idea of self from it, little by little. > > > Lukas, does this not answer your question? L: Actually it doesn't clear up much to me. Still ponder over that, I am forgetful. Best wishes Lukas P.s Yesterday I was at my 1st group sitting at Gdansk City where I live now. I was happy going there because this is good to have a contact with a 'live' dhamma. I met 2 Dhamma friends, we have a short chat and then we sit together for an hour. I got back home at night. But sitting doesnt change anything. It didn't make me feel more concentrated or happy. #114549 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) In a message dated 4/14/2011 1:41:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: What makes you think I do "fight" them or "look for refutation"? > H: It seems so to me, though, of course I could be mistaken. ---- KH: I think you are mistaken. There are clearly two approaches to Dhamma study: one (the one I subscribe to) is to accept all of the Pali texts as absolute truth. The other (the one you subscribe to) is to pick and choose. ---- > H: I do think that we ALL do this to some degree or other "in defense" of our beliefs. ;-) ---- KH: Maybe I do that subconsciously, but it is not my intention. ------------ <. . .. >> KH: Can you think of any examples of where I (or anyone) have restated a sutta without also agreeing with the original wording? > H: I think this happens much of the time. (I could almost toss a figurative dart, and wherever it lands is a proper target. ;-) ------------ KH: You and some other DSG members freely admit to rejecting parts of the texts (Abhidhamma, commentaries and even some suttas) but apart from that I don't know what you are referring to. --------------------- > H: We all, it seems to me, constantly restate to accommodate to our own beliefs. --------------------- KH: There was a time when I thought that was the way to go. I thought only weak, submissive types followed other people's teachings. Ideally, it seemed to me, we should forge our own paths " albeit while borrowing from "other great minds". :-) -------------------- >> KH: As for letting the meaning "penetrate" and "germinate", that is the sort of warm and fuzzy attitude I am very wary of. > H: You think so! If there is truth in the Buddha's words, wouldn't they elicit understanding so long as we immerse ourselves in them without interposing our own thinking?? -------------------- KH: I don't believe it works that way. Remember the simile of the soup ladle - constantly immersed without ever knowing the taste of soup. Rather than immersing in someone else's understanding we should be developing our own. And that is done by hearing, considering and discussing. ------------------------- > H: I'm talking about contemplation that holds our beliefs and our own thought processes in check. Nothing "warm and fuzzy" about this, and nothing to be afraid of, though it requires some determination and perhaps some courage. ------------------------- KH: It sounds like soup ladles to me. -------------------- >> KH: Let's stick with cold hard understanding. > H: Yes, but that comes about by not interposing our own thinking. Our thinking accommodates itself to our beliefs and preferences. -------------------- KH: I am curious to know how you could immerse yourself in the teachings without thinking about them at the same time. Ken H #114550 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Friends, In SN 30. Nandakalicchavi Sutta, the Buddha said about the siila of a Sotaapanna as I had mentioned in my last post. Ariyakantehi siilehi samannaagato hoti akha.n.dehi acchiddehi asabalehi akammaasehi bhujissehi vi~n~nuppasatthehi aparaama.t.thehi samaadhisa.mvattanikehi. The Buddha then added another expression to describe the destiny of a Sotaapanna as follows: Imehi kho, nandaka, catuuhi dhammehi samannaagato ariyasaavako sotaapanno hoti avinipaatadhammo niyato sambodhiparaaya.no. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translation: A noble disciple who possesses these four things is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. --------------- Han: In his Introduction to 55 Sotaapatti Sa.myutta, Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote about the stock formula [avinipaatadhammo niyato sambodhiparaaya.no] mentioned in the above Pali sentence, as follows: The stream-enterer is characterized by a stock formula repeated many times in the Sotaapatti Sa.myutta and elsewhere in the Nikaaya. He or she "no longer bound to the nether world (avinipaatadhamma)," incapable of taking rebirth in any of the lower realms of existence: the hells, the animal realm, or the domain of ghosts; "fixed in destiny (niyata)," bound to reach liberation without regression after seven lives at most, all lived either in the human wolrd or in a celestial realm; and "with enlightenment as destination (sambodhiparaayana)," bound to attain full knowledge of the Four Noble Truths culminating in the destruction of the taints. Han: This is for your information, please. with metta, Han #114551 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:12 pm Subject: Re: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/14/2011 1:41:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: What makes you think I do "fight" them or "look for refutation"? > H: It seems so to me, though, of course I could be mistaken. ---- KH: I think you are mistaken. There are clearly two approaches to Dhamma study: one (the one I subscribe to) is to accept all of the Pali texts as absolute truth. The other (the one you subscribe to) is to pick and choose. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I think we all pick & choose, favoring the ones (and their interpretation) that we are comfortable with and ignoring (or giving short shrift to) and reinterpreting those that make us uncomfortable. But I think it is important for us to try to resist this tendency. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > H: I do think that we ALL do this to some degree or other "in defense" of our beliefs. ;-) ---- KH: Maybe I do that subconsciously, but it is not my intention. ---------------------------------------------------- I'm SURE it is not your intention! You are honorable, and I know that! --------------------------------------------------- ------------ <. . .. >> KH: Can you think of any examples of where I (or anyone) have restated a sutta without also agreeing with the original wording? > H: I think this happens much of the time. (I could almost toss a figurative dart, and wherever it lands is a proper target. ;-) ------------ KH: You and some other DSG members freely admit to rejecting parts of the texts (Abhidhamma, commentaries and even some suttas) but apart from that I don't know what you are referring to. ------------------------------------------------------ It's an inclination, Ken, I'd say. I believe I see you stretching meanings and statements to the point of contortion, and giving emphases that I haven't seen the Buddha give, and I'm afraid I catch myself doing that as well - me with regard to my phenomenalism. ------------------------------------------------------ --------------------- > H: We all, it seems to me, constantly restate to accommodate to our own beliefs. --------------------- KH: There was a time when I thought that was the way to go. I thought only weak, submissive types followed other people's teachings. Ideally, it seemed to me, we should forge our own paths " albeit while borrowing from "other great minds". :-) -------------------- >> KH: As for letting the meaning "penetrate" and "germinate", that is the sort of warm and fuzzy attitude I am very wary of. > H: You think so! If there is truth in the Buddha's words, wouldn't they elicit understanding so long as we immerse ourselves in them without interposing our own thinking?? -------------------- KH: I don't believe it works that way. Remember the simile of the soup ladle - constantly immersed without ever knowing the taste of soup. ------------------------------------------------------------- I think you may be referring to Dhammapada V, namely the following: "Even if for a lifetime the fool stays with the wise, he knows nothing of the Dhamma " as the ladle, the taste of the soup. Even if for a moment, the perceptive person stays with the wise, he immediately knows the Dhamma " as the tongue, the taste of the soup." But the difference being pointed out here lies in the quality of perception, not just the company of the wise and their teachings. It is the difference between the perception of a fool an the perception of a wise one. We all start as fools, but penetratingly immersing ourselves in the Dhamma can lead us fro foolishness to wisdom. Just staying around the wise "even if for a lifetime" is not good enough. ------------------------------------------------------ Rather than immersing in someone else's understanding we should be developing our own. And that is done by hearing, considering and discussing. -------------------------------------------------------- I'm taking about the Buddha's direct words. We need to deeply immerse ourselves in them, letting them lead the way, not ourselves or anyone else. Under the assumption that the Buddha was, indeed, a Buddha, it is his direct Dhamma we should depend on, I believe, and that requires holding all else in abeyance, and plunging into the direct teachings of the Buddha. -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- > H: I'm talking about contemplation that holds our beliefs and our own thought processes in check. Nothing "warm and fuzzy" about this, and nothing to be afraid of, though it requires some determination and perhaps some courage. ------------------------- KH: It sounds like soup ladles to me. ---------------------------------------------------------- Have you been dieting?? ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- >> KH: Let's stick with cold hard understanding. > H: Yes, but that comes about by not interposing our own thinking. Our thinking accommodates itself to our beliefs and preferences. -------------------- KH: I am curious to know how you could immerse yourself in the teachings without thinking about them at the same time. ----------------------------------------------------------- There is thinking, and there is thinking. At first, we are truly doing it all wrong, with our belief-based thinking leading the way . There is little that we can do that is done exactly as it should be done because we are quite flawed. But improvement is possible. Doing our best and depending on the Dhamma as a genuine life-saving gem can yield improvement, step by step. We just need patience. ("Khanti" if that sounds more Dhammic and less "fuzzy" to you! LOL!) ------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114552 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Dear Rob E and Howard, Op 14-apr-2011, om 4:26 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I like it when Buddha says that if he has jhana but not insight, > he should seek out an individual who understands the process of > insight and get instruction on how to attain that, and that the one > who has both jhana and insight should fine-tune them to end the > mental fermentations. It's all put in a way that seems practical > and able to be put into practice. It seems that Buddha is not being > a theoretician here, but is pointing each person onto the > individual pathway they need to complete their path. ----- N:I need more time to study this sutta with commentary. It depends on the individual whether he can attain jhaana or not, but I think no rule. No rule that everybody has to develop jhaana. But right concentration of the eightfold Path grows as understanding grows. Nina. #114553 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is "direct" understanding? Dear Sarah, all, >S:Slowly we can begin to understand that the only seclusion that is >of >any value is the mental seclusion at a moment of understanding >and >awareness. This mental seclusion, the living alone with the >present >citta, can only ever be now. Right. Ultimately it is mental seclusion that counts. But for most people, at least in the beginning, physical seclusion is an important condition to reach the higher level. Even the Buddha had to go to physical seclusion. And in MN17 He did say that place can matter for insight (not just simple samatha!) and the path. The Buddha didn't say that you can and should do satipatthana everywhere. He and great commentators did say that physical seclusion is required. Unfortunately you can't have your cake and eat it to. ""There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.009.than.html It is impossible to reach path and fruit (not just samatha) as long as one delights in company. "Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will - without difficulty, without trouble - the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will - without difficulty, without trouble - the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html The suttas are clear about the benefits of physical seclusion. With best wishes, Alex #114554 From: Vince Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... James wrote: > Everything that Ven. Nanavira writes is correct. A sotapanna isn't a saint > who never breaks a single precept. A sotapanna still has the three poisons: > anger, greed, and ignorance. How could a person like that NEVER do anything > wrong?? It's impossible. The texts which state that the sotapanna's morality > is 'spotless', means that the sotapanna always has spotless "intentions" but > not necessarily always spotless "actions".[..] once the transgression is done, > the sotapanna would recognize it, make amends, and resolve to do better in the > future. Now, isn't that spotless morality? yes, Thanks for your thoughts. I think exactly the same. Well, at least I'm glad to check I'm not thinking heretical and strange things. However, what appears in the Sangitti Sutta posted in this thread made me think again: "He is possessed of morality dear to the Noble Ones, unbroken, without defect, unspotted, without inconsistency, liberating, praised by the wise, uncorrupted, and conductive to concentration." however, until today I think like you. Presence of these characteristics of morality always are requisites but never condicionants for a good result. The knowledge of when they will be conditionants can belong to arhants or Buddhas. I don't know if there are variations of that reach. However, this is not a matter of theorizing a long time. Everybody knows when he perform a good action expecting a good result, later he will see himself under an uncertain expectative. This doubt is the real knowledge of what happens beyond the comments over comments. It seems this lack of wisdom also belongs to Sotapanna according Suttas (and I suppose also Abhidhamma). So at the end it seems wisdom conditions sila, and sila becomes a witness of its presence in different degrees. If this is the real case, then why the witness should explain exaggerations about the facts instead the plain truth. Or perhaps there is some benefit in that. Although at least I cannot find a clear passage in the Suttas supporting that procedure. Nanavira explain this is not of benefit but an obstacle; maybe just another opinion. I wonder why there is this assortiment of opinions in this matter. best, Vince. #114555 From: Vince Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Dear Nina: you wrote: > BUt you are not quoting the teachings, only Ven. Nanavira's personal > views. I heard these before from someone else. We discussed before > about not breaking the precepts. I mentioned this before but have no > time to look it up again. Perhaps you can check U.P. in the archives, > sotaapanna. yes.. I was looking the archives but I don't find a clear passage in the impossibility of breaking precepts for a sotapanna. Nanavira used several examples: "he is capable of breaking all the lesser Vinaya rules" (M. 48: i,323-5; A. 111,85: i,231-2) "he is capable of disrobing on account of sensual desires" (e.g. the Ven. Citta Hatthisriputta-A. VI,60: iii,392-9); "he is capable (to some degree) of anger, ill-will, jealousy,stinginess, deceit, craftiness, shamelessness, and brazenness" (A. 11,16: i,96). well.. I find it quite incoherent when fetters are not eradicated neither wisdom is perfectly established as in the case of arhants. What's your thought about this? best, Vince, #114556 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Dear Howard and Rob E >N:I need more time to study this sutta with commentary. It depends on >the individual whether he can attain jhaana or not, but I think no >rule. No rule that everybody has to develop jhaana. But right >concentration of the eightfold Path grows as understanding grows. KO: yes this I agreed with Nina, there is no fixed rule that everybody has to develop jhana to attain enlightment. There are dry insightors which is disputable by many since the sutta common stock formulae of enlightment is through jhanas than right concentration. The dry insightors are mostly cited in the commentaries. Ken O #114557 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:11 pm Subject: Silenced! Friends: Sweet is Verbal, Bodily & Mental Silence! The Blessed Buddha once said: Kyamunim vacamunim, manomunimansavam, munim moneyyasampannam. Ahu ninhtappakam. Silenced in body, silenced in speech, silenced in mind, without inner noise, blessed with silence is the sage! He is truly washed of all evil... Itivuttaka 3.67 Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the tranquillity; So is the serenity; of one freed by the insight of right understanding... Dhammapada 96 Sambdhe vpi vindanti, dhammam nibbnapattiy ye satim paccalatthamsu samm te susamhit. Even when obstacles crowd in, the path to Nibbna can be won by those who establish mindfulness, perfect focus and concentration. Samyutta Nikya 1.88 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114558 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Vince and James One of the sutta references: MN 117, B Bodhi, Wisdom pg 936 -937 <<17 "And what, Bikkhu is wrong speech? False speech, malicious speech, harsh speech and gossip: this is wrong speech" 18 "And what, bhikkhus, is right speech? Right speech, I say, is twofold: there is right speech that is affected by taines, partaking of merits, ripening in the acquisitions; and there is right action that is noble, taintless, supramundae, a factor of the path" 25 "And what, bhikkhus, is right speech that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquistions? Abstience from false speech, abstience from malicious speech, , abstinence from harsh speech, abstience from goosip: that is right action that is affected by taints ... ripening in acquisitions." 20 "And what, bhikkhus is right speech that is noble, taintless, supradmundane, a factor of the path? The desisting from the four kinds of verbal misconduct, the abstaining, refraining, abstinence from them in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possess the noble path and is developing the noble path, that is right speech, that is noble.....a factor of the path 23 "And what, bhikkhus, is wrong action? Killing living beings, taking what is not given, and misconduct in sexual pleasures: that is wrong action" 24 "And what, bhikkhus, is right action? Right action, I say, is twofold: there is right action that is affected by taines, partaking of merits, ripening in the acquisitions; and there is right action that is noble, taintless, supramundae, a factor of the path" 25 "And what, bhikkhus, is right action that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquistions? Abstience from killing living beings, abstience from taking what is not given, abstinence from misconduct in sensual pleasure: that is right action that is affected by taints ... ripening in acquisitions." 26 "And what, bikkhus, is right action that is noble, tainless , supramundane, a factor of the path? The desisting from the three kinds of bodily misconduct, the abstaining, refraining, abstinence from them in one whose mind is taintless, who possess the noble path and is developing the noble path, that is right action, that is noble.....a factor of the path>> KO: yes even Arahants are capable of infringes into lesser and minor trainings rules but he if fully accomplished in virture. In this sutta, even the sotapanna is fully accomplished in virture The chapter of the threes, Numeral discourss of the Buddha, pg 71 <> KO: a more definitive sutta on noble disciples incapable of infringing the five precepts The chapter of the eight, Numeral discourss of the Buddha, pg 215-216, B Bodhi & B Nyanapnika <> KO: it is follow by gives up taking of what is not give, sexual misconduct, false speech and wines Ken O Nanavira used several > examples: > > "he is capable of breaking all the lesser Vinaya rules" (M. 48: i,323-5; A. > 111,85: i,231-2) > "he is capable of disrobing on account of sensual desires" (e.g. the Ven. Citta > Hatthis叩riputta"A. VI,60: iii,392-9); > "he is capable (to some degree) of anger, ill-will, jealousy,stinginess, >deceit, > craftiness, shamelessness, and brazenness" (A. 11,16: i,96). > > well.. I find it quite incoherent when fetters are not eradicated neither > wisdom is perfectly established as in the case of arhants. > What's your thought about this? > > > best, > > Vince, > #114559 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:54 pm Subject: Re: what is "direct" understanding? Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Slowly we can begin to understand that the only seclusion that is of any value is the mental seclusion at a moment of understanding and awareness. This mental seclusion, the living alone with the present citta, can only ever be now. Thanks, Sarah, always good to hear. And you put it very poetically too. "This mental seclusion...can only ever be now." Very nice, and a clear understanding to contemplate. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114560 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E and Howard, > Op 14-apr-2011, om 4:26 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I like it when Buddha says that if he has jhana but not insight, > > he should seek out an individual who understands the process of > > insight and get instruction on how to attain that, and that the one > > who has both jhana and insight should fine-tune them to end the > > mental fermentations. It's all put in a way that seems practical > > and able to be put into practice. It seems that Buddha is not being > > a theoretician here, but is pointing each person onto the > > individual pathway they need to complete their path. > ----- > N:I need more time to study this sutta with commentary. It depends on > the individual whether he can attain jhaana or not, but I think no > rule. No rule that everybody has to develop jhaana. But right > concentration of the eightfold Path grows as understanding grows. If you have the chance to look into this sutta and the commentary at any point, I will very much appreciate any thoughts you have about it. I would enjoy hearing what you think about the sutta. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114561 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Dear Rob E, Yes, O.K. Howard always has good suttas. I get so much behind in my work, even when I have to go out for one day, or cook a meal for my sister who lost her partner. Thank you, we enjoyed our walking, every day. Nina. Op 15-apr-2011, om 8:06 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > If you have the chance to look into this sutta and the commentary > at any point, I will very much appreciate any thoughts you have > about it. I would enjoy hearing what you think about the sutta. #114562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Vince and James, Perhaps you did not have time to read Han's posts which are very clear about this subject. But Han just gives info, does not like discussions: N: Spk is the commentary. It depends on you whether you trust the commentary or not. I do not have time to discuss about the commentaries. Nina. Op 15-apr-2011, om 2:13 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > James wrote: > > > Everything that Ven. Nanavira writes is correct. #114563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? Dear Alex, Op 14-apr-2011, om 4:32 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > There are better places and there are less ideal places. Even the > Buddha took some time off, in physical seclusion. > > Anapanasati, Satipatthana and many other instructions require > physical seclusion. No matter how hard it is, no matter how much I > would wish that any place (including my bed, I have terrible > health) is the best place, the suttas state what they state... ------ N: How I feel with you, knowing about your health. But such are the conditions now, and we cannot choose these. Whatever happens does so because it is conditioned. Let us make the best of it. Many suttas are about mental seclusion, Sarah quoted those before. Like "Dwelling alone, dwelling alone!" Craving is the mate he has left behind. I like this one. One may retire, but the accumulated defilements always go along, so long as they have not been eradicated. In the end one may come to see that it really does not matter where one is, there are seeing, thinking, attachment everywhere, no matter in a busy house or in the woods. ------- A: It is impossible to reach path and fruit (not just samatha) as long as one delights in company. "Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; ------- N: Here we have to be careful with the interpretation. The bhikkhu is not supposed to delight in company nor talk animal talk. This is not said to laypeople. You are a monk at heart, but because of circumstances you cannot ordain. So I understand your preference for physical seclusion. But again, this depends on the circumstances of the individual. And then, the commentary to the satipa.t.thaanasutta states that also laypeople who follow the eightfold path are in a way bhikkhus. They live the divine life. One learns not to mind about people, things, situations. There are only conditioned dhammas. But, we are just learning, and this is not easy. Nina. #114564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Upadhi (acquisitions) Dear Philip, Op 14-apr-2011, om 2:30 heeft philip Coristine het volgende geschreven: > > I hope you and Lodewijk enjoyed some pleasant walking! > ----- N: Thank you, we did. ----- > > May I ask you to explain the difference between khandupadhi and > abhisankhaarupadhi. I am interested these days in the teaching of > "appropriations" or "acquisitions." I think I understand the other two > or may ask later as a follow up. > ---------- N: I may be mistaken, but I think these two terms refer to the two kinds of parinibbaana: the arahat who attains parinibbaana and does not die yet has still the khandhas remaining (upadhi: substrate of life). But he has no conditions for new kamma producing rebirth, no abhisankhaara that conditions it. He has reached the end of the triple rounds of kilesa, kamma and vipaaka. When he finally passes away there are no more khandhas remaining. But now all these matters are only words or terms. Instead of thinking of the arahat should we not rather be interested in what appears at this moment, even during the time you watch baseball? Is there no sound when people are roaring? Nina. #114565 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:58 am Subject: Re: Upadhi (acquisitions) Dear Nina and Phil, Recently I have a spare time that I used to spend with myself. But instead of renunciation or having more understanding on account of ayatanas I just indulge in pleasantness and pleasant stories of 'me'. I know this is ignorance and this shall be stopedm but the hell screw it...I really prefer to live in pleasant stories world. > > May I ask you to explain the difference between khandupadhi and > > abhisankhaarupadhi. I am interested these days in the teaching of > > "appropriations" or "acquisitions." I think I understand the other two > > or may ask later as a follow up. > > > ---------- > N: I may be mistaken, but I think these two terms refer to the two > kinds of parinibbaana: the arahat who attains parinibbaana and does > not die yet has still the khandhas remaining (upadhi: substrate of > life). But he has no conditions for new kamma producing rebirth, no > abhisankhaara that conditions it. He has reached the end of the > triple rounds of kilesa, kamma and vipaaka. When he finally passes > away there are no more khandhas remaining. > But now all these matters are only words or terms. Instead of > thinking of the arahat should we not rather be interested in what > appears at this moment, even during the time you watch baseball? Is > there no sound when people are roaring? L: There is forgetfulness, so no sound at such a moment. No realisation that there is a sound. Today there was sunny, I decided to go to the sea. I was walking along the beach and delecting forests and beautiful sights. I didn't have any moment of reflection that this is a visible object or seeing only and then stories. Well...I will go to Hell. Best wishes Lukas #114566 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Yes, O.K. Howard always has good suttas. I get so much behind in my > work, even when I have to go out for one day, or cook a meal for my > sister who lost her partner. Thank you, we enjoyed our walking, every > day. > Nina. > Op 15-apr-2011, om 8:06 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > If you have the chance to look into this sutta and the commentary > > at any point, I will very much appreciate any thoughts you have > > about it. I would enjoy hearing what you think about the sutta. Thanks Nina. No rush, for sure. But it is very interesting! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114567 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:54 am Subject: on Seclusion Dear Nina, Sarah, all, >N: But such are the conditions now, and we cannot choose these. >Whatever happens does so because it is conditioned. Let us make the >best of it. I agree with that, and I do hope that you and Sarah are right regarding "seclusion". >S: Slowly we can begin to understand that the only seclusion that is >of any value is the mental seclusion at a moment of understanding >and >awareness. This mental seclusion, the living alone with the >present >citta, can only ever be now. The thing that I was talking about is that only Arahants are perfectly mentally secluded, and for them it doesn't matter the external things. But we aren't them, and truths that apply to them, do not apply to us. Often it happens that certain worldly concerns (that may not happen during physical seclusion) make a beginner forget about khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus and stuck in the mire of worldly stuff. Also when one is very concentrated (upacara or better), externals do not bother one. But not everyone has such kind of state arise often enough, and it is difficult to attain and keep it when not in physical seclusion. As you know, the 2nd step of 7 states of purification is citta-visuddhi, and it comes before purity of view... From the commentaries, citta visuddhi is at least access or momentary concentration - which takes some effort to achieve. Even for views, certain amount of concentration is required. At very least this implies ardent development of insight, and probably in some form of physical seclusion. Any comments? With best wishes, Alex #114568 From: Vince Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > Perhaps you did not have time to read Han's posts which are very > clear about this subject. But Han just gives info, does not like > discussions: > Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translation: He possesses the virtues dear to the > noble ones, unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, > praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration. [Note 320] > N: Spk is the commentary. It depends on you whether you trust the > commentary or not. I do not have time to discuss about the commentaries. yes, we start talking precisely about this passage. Discussion was if the permanent presence of these virtues doesn't mean the permanent development of virtuos actions. Therefore, once the lesser transgression is done, the person would recognize it. Support is when we find these lesser transgressions inside Suttas. At the end, the point is when we think sila can be perfect despite a lack of perfect wisdom (which can belongs only to arhants). Anyway, it seems there are different views in people and commentaries. Maybe this discussion doesn't have an easy solution. Vince. #114569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi Howard (and Rob E), I read the commentary. Op 14-apr-2011, om 3:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/ > an04.094.than.html#F_termsOfUse) > > > "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in > the > world. Which four? > "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal > tranquillity > of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened > discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has > attained insight into > phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal > tranquillity of > awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has > attained neither > internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through > heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the > individual who has > attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into > phenomena > through heightened discernment. ... > > "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of > awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, > his duty is > to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful > qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) > fermentations. > "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the > world." -------- N: The sankhaaras: he should have insight into the three characteristics of all sankhaara dhammas. Then the first jhaana and the second jhaana are mentioned. It is said that the wise should see here the meaning of both samatha and vipassanaa which are lokiya and lokuttara, and this regards all three suttas of this section. N: In other words, when we read about samatha we should also keep in mind that lokuttara citta experiencing nibbaana is of the strength of jhaana. As said before, even those who did not develop mundane jhaana and attain enlightenment have lokuttara cittas with calm of the degree of the first stage of jhaana. The eradication of defilements means actually the highest calm. Nina. #114570 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sakkaya ditthi and khandas Dear Philip, Op 14-apr-2011, om 5:48 heeft philip Coristine het volgende geschreven: > > > Does sakkaya ditthi refer to the khandas as an integral unit or a > single event of wrong view towards a particular khanda, for example > feeling as self etc... > ------- N: Sakkaaya di.t.thi refers to all five khandhas. There are four kinds to each of the five, thus, 20 kinds: the belief to be indentical with them, to be contained in them, to be independent of them, to be the owner of them. When such a belief arises it is one moment of citta with wrong view. For instance we may take sound for mine. Or hearing: I am hearing, and forget that hearing is only an impermanent citta. They all occur in daily life, they are not theoretical. Nina. #114571 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi, Nina (and Robert) - In a message dated 4/16/2011 5:11:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard (and Rob E), I read the commentary. Op 14-apr-2011, om 3:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/ > an04.094.than.html#F_termsOfUse) > > > "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in > the > world. Which four? > "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal > tranquillity > of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened > discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has > attained insight into > phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal > tranquillity of > awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has > attained neither > internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through > heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the > individual who has > attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into > phenomena > through heightened discernment. ... > > "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of > awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, > his duty is > to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful > qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) > fermentations. > "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the > world." -------- N: The sankhaaras: he should have insight into the three characteristics of all sankhaara dhammas. Then the first jhaana and the second jhaana are mentioned. It is said that the wise should see here the meaning of both samatha and vipassanaa which are lokiya and lokuttara, and this regards all three suttas of this section. N: In other words, when we read about samatha we should also keep in mind that lokuttara citta experiencing nibbaana is of the strength of jhaana. As said before, even those who did not develop mundane jhaana and attain enlightenment have lokuttara cittas with calm of the degree of the first stage of jhaana. The eradication of defilements means actually the highest calm. --------------------------------------------------------- This sutta doesn't speak about keeping something in mind. It says "his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations." Also, Nina, what about the rest of the sutta which talks of people without attainment in tranquility or insight or either and suggests they go for appropropriate training to those who HAVE developed mastery? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nina. ==================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114572 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:32 am Subject: The Beautiful Kalyanamitta Friend! Friends: The Good & Beautiful Friend (Kalyanamitta): The friend, who is a helpmate, The friend in both happiness and woe, The friend, who gives good counsel, The friend, who sympathizes too -- These four as friends the wise behold and cherish devotedly as does a mother her own child. Digha Nikya 31 Who is hospitable, and friendly, Tolerant, generous and unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a leader, Such a one to honour may attain. Digha Nikya 31 One is not intelligent just because one speaks much! He who is peaceable, friendly & fearless, is called wise. Dhammapada 258 If you find a wise and clever friend who leads a good and pure noble life, you should, overcoming all obstacles, keep his company joyously and aware! Dhammapada 328 <....> Good Friendship is Universal! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114573 From: philip Coristine Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:23 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Upadhi (acquisitions) Hello Nina (p.s to Lukas) Thank you, but perhaps this is something different, I certainly don't think about the arahant, or the sotapanna for that matter. But this upadhi, I found it in my notes: "Objectively it refers to things acquired, subjectively to the acto of appropriating rooted in craving. Ibn many cases the two sense merge and often bother are intended. THere are 1) kamupadhi, acquisitions as sensual pleasures and material possessions 29 khandupadhi, the five aggregates, 3) kilesupadhi, defilments, which are foundation for sufering in the realm of misery and 4) abhisankhaarupadhi, volitional fomations, accumulations of kamma, which are the foundation for all suffering in samsara. It is not so important for me to understand them now, but they just add to my sense that "the dhamma is gone, never to return" is a kind of wrong view, there is so much accumulation going on. But really, not important now. I will discuss further someday, based on Sarah's post to me about the topic of "gone forever, never to return." Thank you also for your answer to my question about sakkaya ditthi, Nina. I think it is Bhikkhu Bodhi who said that sakkaya ditthi refers to the khandas as an integral unit (ie all 5 rising together to give the idea of a self) but I do remember the 20 variants, so propely understood, sakkaya ditthi is just one moment of seeing as me, mine, my self or...well, it's not important right now. Metta, Phil p.s hello also Lukas, please forgive me if I don't phone this week, I am doing a translation project in addition to my regular teaching job, the deadline is coming.... > > May I ask you to explain the difference between khandupadhi and > abhisankhaarupadhi. I am interested these days in the teaching of > "appropriations" or "acquisitions." I think I understand the other two > or may ask later as a follow up. > ---------- N: I may be mistaken, but I think these two terms refer to the two kinds of parinibbaana: the arahat who attains parinibbaana and does not die yet has still the khandhas remaining (upadhi: substrate of life). But he has no conditions for new kamma producing rebirth, no abhisankhaara that conditions it. He has reached the end of the triple rounds of kilesa, kamma and vipaaka. When he finally passes away there are no more khandhas remaining. But now all these matters are only words or terms. Instead of thinking of the arahat should we not rather be interested in what appears at this moment, even during the time you watch baseball? Is there no sound when people are roaring? Nina. #114574 From: "antony272b2" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Self-view & Computer Rage Hi Sarah, I'd better clarify my question. > > >A:For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? Antony: I'm experiencing a phobia of intense fear bordering on terror that I'll get permanent RSI if I force the keyboard or mouse to complete something on the computer. My question about self-view is looking for an alternative to saying "You won't let me do it!" when there is no evidence that there is a "you" present that is stopping me from doing what I think I want. Thanks / Antony. PS I like to think of nama and rupa as events rather than things that are present. What do you think? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Antony, > > Sorry for the slow reply. > > --- On Fri, 1/4/11, antony272b2 wrote: > > >So it's not just a binary decision whether or not to do the keystroke but the intention can be frustrated if there is not sufficient degree of resolve to move the body? And does the teaching on dukkha mean that operating the keyboard and mouse is literally painful? > .... > S: As I said, "When we understand that the rupas of the body are all conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutriment, it's easier to accept that no being is involved at all!" Moving the body is not just a matter of decision to do so and resolve. The rupas which we call the body are not just conditioned by citta, but by the other factors too. > > Thinking of hearing - there may be a wish or determination to hear a sound, but if the conditions are not in place, such as the sound itself, the ear-sense as conditioned by kamma and the space or cavity, no hearing will take place. > > All dhammas arise by particular conditions. When we think about "hitting the keystroke" or "moving the body", there are many different namas and rupas involved. As I wrote before: > > >S: When we go to make a keystroke, cittas are conditioning rupas, but of course there is much more involved than just intentions to type letters. If our fingers are very cold or we're sick, we can see how in spite of those intentions, kamma, temperature and nutriment are also conditioning rupas and so it seems that the "body doesn't co-operate". After swimming in winter, I find I'm unable to open my front door with the key or a patient after an accident may not be able to move any limbs at all. > > >S: As for "overcoming the self-view", the only way is to understand dhammas - namas and rupas - when they appear for what they are. Just conditioned dhammas which are experienced, such as the tangible objects of hardness/softness, heat/cold and motion, and those dhammas which can experience objects, such as the bodily experience, the feelings, the thinking or the seeing consciousness now. > > S: I really think that understanding present dhammas which appear now is the way to overcome ideas of situations as exisiting, ideas of atta. When there is more understanding of these conditioned dhammas, there will be less "computer rage", because there will no longer be the idea that your body, computer or the key-strokes are under your control. > > Metta > > Sarah > > > > >A:For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? > #114575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Upadhi (acquisitions) Dear Phil, Yes, in the Buddhist Dictionary (Ven. Nyanatiloka) these groups have been mentioned. It is defined as substratum of existence. The arahat does not have these. So long as there is clinging to sense objects, so long as there are conditions for the khandhas of grasping to go on, for defilements and for the accumulation of kamma we will continue in samsara. Nina. Op 16-apr-2011, om 15:23 heeft philip Coristine het volgende geschreven: > "Objectively it refers to things acquired, subjectively to the > acto of appropriating rooted in craving. Ibn many cases the two > sense merge and often bother are intended. THere are 1) kamupadhi, > acquisitions as sensual pleasures and material possessions 2) > khandupadhi, the five aggregates, 3) kilesupadhi, defilments, which > are foundation for sufering in the realm of misery and 4) > abhisankhaarupadhi, volitional fomations, accumulations of kamma, > which are the foundation for all suffering in samsara. > #114576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Upadhi (acquisitions) Dear Lukas, Op 15-apr-2011, om 23:58 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: There is forgetfulness, so no sound at such a moment. No > realisation that there is a sound. ------ N: So also that is a conditioned naama. Forgetfulness is naama and it should be known too. Otherwise it can never be eradicated. We can learn the difference between the characteristic of forgetfulness and sati. Essential to know this. ------- > > L: Today there was sunny, I decided to go to the sea. I was walking > along the beach and delecting forests and beautiful sights. I > didn't have any moment of reflection that this is a visible object > or seeing only and then stories. Well...I will go to Hell. ------- N: Also lobha is a conditioned dhamma and its characteristic can be known. Not just the name lobha. We are inclined to think of terms and names instead of realizing characteristics. We cannot know our next rebirth, this is the field of the Buddhas. It is useless to say that it will be hell. Nina. #114577 From: "antony272b2" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Self-view & Computer Rage More below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I'd better clarify my question. > > > >A:For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? > > Antony: I'm experiencing a phobia of intense fear bordering on terror that I'll get permanent RSI if I force the keyboard or mouse to complete something on the computer. My question about self-view is looking for an alternative to saying "You won't let me do it!" when there is no evidence that there is a "you" present that is stopping me from doing what I think I want. > > Thanks / Antony. ++++ Antony: As I said, in hindsight what seems to have stopped me from completing the task was strong wise intuition that it was for the best. I say "But you won't tell me why!" which brings on the computer rage. I need to find an alternative to addressing a being "you". I also found this quote: "...the mind reacts to the results of its own actions. These reactions can take the form of positive feedback loops, intensifying the original input and its results, much like the howl in a speaker placed next to the microphone feeding into it." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/index.html From: Wings to Awakening by Thanissaro Bhikkhu With metta / Antony. > > PS I like to think of nama and rupa as events rather than things that are present. What do you think? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > Hi Antony, > > > > Sorry for the slow reply. > > > > --- On Fri, 1/4/11, antony272b2 wrote: > > > > >So it's not just a binary decision whether or not to do the keystroke but the intention can be frustrated if there is not sufficient degree of resolve to move the body? And does the teaching on dukkha mean that operating the keyboard and mouse is literally painful? > > .... > > S: As I said, "When we understand that the rupas of the body are all conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutriment, it's easier to accept that no being is involved at all!" Moving the body is not just a matter of decision to do so and resolve. The rupas which we call the body are not just conditioned by citta, but by the other factors too. > > > > Thinking of hearing - there may be a wish or determination to hear a sound, but if the conditions are not in place, such as the sound itself, the ear-sense as conditioned by kamma and the space or cavity, no hearing will take place. > > > > All dhammas arise by particular conditions. When we think about "hitting the keystroke" or "moving the body", there are many different namas and rupas involved. As I wrote before: > > > > >S: When we go to make a keystroke, cittas are conditioning rupas, but of course there is much more involved than just intentions to type letters. If our fingers are very cold or we're sick, we can see how in spite of those intentions, kamma, temperature and nutriment are also conditioning rupas and so it seems that the "body doesn't co-operate". After swimming in winter, I find I'm unable to open my front door with the key or a patient after an accident may not be able to move any limbs at all. > > > > >S: As for "overcoming the self-view", the only way is to understand dhammas - namas and rupas - when they appear for what they are. Just conditioned dhammas which are experienced, such as the tangible objects of hardness/softness, heat/cold and motion, and those dhammas which can experience objects, such as the bodily experience, the feelings, the thinking or the seeing consciousness now. > > > > S: I really think that understanding present dhammas which appear now is the way to overcome ideas of situations as exisiting, ideas of atta. When there is more understanding of these conditioned dhammas, there will be less "computer rage", because there will no longer be the idea that your body, computer or the key-strokes are under your control. > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > > > > > > >A:For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? > > > #114578 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:53 am Subject: Re: Upadhi (acquisitions) Dear Nina, (Phil) > > L: There is forgetfulness, so no sound at such a moment. No > > realisation that there is a sound. > ------ > N: So also that is a conditioned naama. Forgetfulness is naama and it > should be known too. Otherwise it can never be eradicated. We can > learn the difference between the characteristic of forgetfulness and > sati. Essential to know this. > ------- L: Yes but what kind of naama forgetfulness is? > > L: Today there was sunny, I decided to go to the sea. I was walking > > along the beach and delecting forests and beautiful sights. I > > didn't have any moment of reflection that this is a visible object > > or seeing only and then stories. Well...I will go to Hell. > ------- > N: Also lobha is a conditioned dhamma and its characteristic can be > known. Not just the name lobha. We are inclined to think of terms and > names instead of realizing characteristics. > We cannot know our next rebirth, this is the field of the Buddhas. It > is useless to say that it will be hell. L: What is the characteristic of lobha? Best wishes Lukas p.s Phil, That's allright. Call me when you finish..anytime. #114579 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi Howard, and Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Robert) - > > In a message dated 4/16/2011 5:11:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Rob E), > I read the commentary. > Op 14-apr-2011, om 3:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/ > > an04.094.than.html#F_termsOfUse) > > > > > > "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in > > the > > world. Which four? > > "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal > > tranquillity > > of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened > > discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has > > attained insight into > > phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal > > tranquillity of > > awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has > > attained neither > > internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through > > heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the > > individual who has > > attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into > > phenomena > > through heightened discernment. ... > > > > "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of > > awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, > > his duty is > > to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful > > qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) > > fermentations. > > "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the > > world." > -------- > N: The sankhaaras: he should have insight into the three > characteristics of all sankhaara dhammas. Then the first jhaana and > the second jhaana are mentioned. It is said that the wise should see > here the meaning of both samatha and vipassanaa which are lokiya and > lokuttara, and this regards all three suttas of this section. > N: In other words, when we read about samatha we should also keep in > mind that lokuttara citta experiencing nibbaana is of the strength of > jhaana. As said before, even those who did not develop mundane jhaana > and attain enlightenment have lokuttara cittas with calm of the > degree of the first stage of jhaana. The eradication of defilements > means actually the highest calm. > --------------------------------------------------------- > This sutta doesn't speak about keeping something in mind. It says "his > duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same > skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) > fermentations." Also, Nina, what about the rest of the sutta which talks of people > without attainment in tranquility or insight or either and suggests they go > for appropropriate training to those who HAVE developed mastery? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am also sometimes perplexed that the commentaries sometimes appear to either contradict or bypass things that the suttas actually say. Although the commentary here speaks about a higher process that is closer to nibbana, the sutta seems to be giving instruction for a more general situation, balancing out the lack of either insight or jhana development respectively, and recommending one to make up the deficit. The commentary seems to reassure the dry insight practicer that whatever the sutta may recommend, he will be okay when he gets to the highest level, and so not to worry too much if he cannot do what the sutta recommends. Whether or not lokutara citta includes samatha of the level of the 1st jhana, as the commentary suggests, it seems that the sutta still recommends that one complete the "full package" of jhana + insight if possible. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114580 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:58 am Subject: Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? Hi all, How is everyone? I know I have not posted here lately but rest assured that I have all of my friends here in mind. I was doing some internet searches and I stumbled upon this. I felt it was worth sharing. "Venerable Sirs, My question is about the level of samadhi needed for each attainments on the Path. Since Buddhists are encouraged to question and think by themselves I know that nobody will get upset for me doubting even such a great monk like Ajahn Brahm. I know that Ajahn Brahm says that one cannot attain even sotapanna unless he reaches at least first jhana samadhi. Today I was reading MN 14 the shorter Discourse on the Mass of Suffering, in which Mahanama asks the Buddha why is that even if he understands the Dhamma still greed hate and delusion invade his mind. The Buddha answers that it is so because he has not attain jhana (Ajahn Brahm also explains this passage in the same way) In the back-notes of Bhikkhu Bodhi he says that in Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha is stated that Mahanama was at that time a once returner (if available see notes 206 - 208 of the Wisdom Publications - mine is Third Edition) and suggests that "from this passage it seems that a disciple may attain even to the second path and fruit without possessing mundane jhana". - excerpt from an internet post by Ciprian Salagean at community.dhammaloka.org.au I think this is another obvious example that jhana is not necessary for attainments, and that all non-Arahants have defilements. My apologies if this example has been posted before in one or more threads concerning the age old 'is jhana necessary?' argument. I can almost foresee a "well that is from the Atthakatha so you can't trust it" response coming. But, I guess, each one will believe what he will believe. ___________ With metta Kevin . #114581 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:05 pm Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) Hi Howard, ------ <. . .> >H : I think we all pick & choose, favoring the ones (and their interpretation) that we are comfortable with and ignoring (or giving short shrift to) and reinterpreting those that make us uncomfortable. But I think it is important for us to try to resist this tendency. ------ KH: Yes, but it is a tendency most people will be unable to resist. Most people come to Buddhism expecting to find a religion, or a conventional teaching of some kind. They are looking for a set of steps they can follow with the aim of getting somewhere in the future. But that kind of teaching is not to be found in the Pali texts. And so people who insist on finding it there are forced to change the wording of suttas, and to reject commentaries and Abhidhamma. ----------------- <. . .> >>> H: If there is truth in the Buddha's words, wouldn't they elicit understanding so long as we immerse ourselves in them without interposing our own thinking?? >> KH: I don't believe it works that way. Remember the simile of the soup ladle - constantly immersed without ever knowing the taste of soup. > H: I think you may be referring to Dhammapada V, namely the following: "Even if for a lifetime the fool stays with the wise, he knows nothing of the Dhamma " as the ladle, the taste of the soup. Even if for a moment, the perceptive person stays with the wise, he immediately knows the Dhamma " as the tongue, the taste of the soup." But the difference being pointed out here lies in the quality of perception, not just the company of the wise and their teachings. It is the difference between the perception of a fool an the perception of a wise one. ------------ KH: Yes, I see what you mean; the text is not criticising immersion, it is criticising immersion without right understanding. Thanks for pointing that out. It's something over which there is no control, of course. Right understanding is either conditioned to arise, or it isn't. -------------------- > H: We all start as fools, but penetratingly immersing ourselves in the Dhamma can lead us fro foolishness to wisdom. Just staying around the wise "even if for a lifetime" is not good enough. -------------------- KH: That is true, but I think it is true by way of simile. The story of a lasting self that starts out as a fool and becomes wise, can be a simile for a moment of samma-ditthi, which starts with a certain amount of accumulated defilement and ends with less. --------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: And that is done by hearing, considering and discussing. > H: I'm taking about the Buddha's direct words. We need to deeply immerse ourselves in them, letting them lead the way, not ourselves or anyone else. Under the assumption that the Buddha was, indeed, a Buddha, it is his direct Dhamma we should depend on, I believe, and that requires holding all else in abeyance, and plunging into the direct teachings of the Buddha. ----------------------------- KH: I can only repeat what I said before: if we are looking for a conventional teaching, with "things to do" rather than with presently arisen dhammas, then we will be tempted to change and reinterpret the texts. ----------- >> KH: I am curious to know how you could immerse yourself in the teachings without thinking about them at the same time. > H: There is thinking, and there is thinking. ----------- KH: I see, so we are talking about immersion with right thinking. I can agree with that. --------------- > H: At first, we are truly doing it all wrong, with our belief-based thinking leading the way. There is little that we can do that is done exactly as it should be done because we are quite flawed. But improvement is possible. Doing our best and depending on the Dhamma as a genuine life-saving gem can yield improvement, step by step. --------------- KH: Some people will be asking; "What about now?" Isn't there a reality that can be known now as just a conditioned dhamma? ------------------- > H: We just need patience. ("Khanti" if that sounds more Dhammic and less "fuzzy" to you! LOL!) ------------------- KH: That's more like it. :-) I've got nothing against patience, so long as I can have it now. Ken #114582 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:09 am Subject: Reuniting is Bak Poya Day! Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? The Bak Poya day is the full-moon of April. This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits Ceylon for the second time to reconcile two local chiefs Mahodara and Clodara , uncle & nephew, who had fallen into war threatening hostility about a jewel-beset throne... The story shows the Buddha as fine diplomat & is given in full below! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, white-clothed, clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first 3 times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels for the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! A journey towards the deathless Nibbna is thus started! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fully completed by training of Meditation ... <....> Nagadipa Temple today. http://www.amazinglanka.com/heritage/nagadipa/nagadipa.php Source: Mahavamsa I:44. The Great Chronicle of Ceylon. Translated. By Wilhelm Geiger 1912; reprinted in 1980. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130010I Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114583 From: "colette" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:10 pm Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) Hi KH and Howard, THAT WAS A VERY SKILLFUL discussion! Applause to both of you. May play in this one? I'm gonna suggest taking our practices ONE STEP FURTHER into the mind and the mind's power to project. I believe this thought is getting very close to the MIND-ONLY school's foundations. (feel free, Robert E. to wander through and give us an opinion of my conceptualization(s)). Howard questions an ability of the Buddha's words to elicit a response from the student. KH wants to have something NOW, "...so long as I can have it now. " I know he was making a tiny joke, but he raises powerful questions. Enter MARA goddess of ILLUSION. Maybe KH realizes after making the jest that the jest may just be an ILLUSION and therefore not funny but dangerous? Are the words that we are reading and studying in our desire to learn the teachings, really the Buddha's words? Did the Buddha, himself, write them down for us or did some other person write them down and impart upon the words, the concepts, their own KARMA or their own ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELD(s) withing the Buddha's, alleged, words? Surely there is no denial that the Buddha himself gave words to his followers and those words held Karma attached to them, is it possible to take an already existing thing, copy it, and NOT ATTACH OUR OWN PERSONAL KARMA OR ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELD(S) TO IT THUS MODIFYING THE BUDDHA'S WORDS? I'm looking at the MIND'S ability to control the body and thus manifest HEAT, also, the MIND'S ability to TRANSFER CONSCIOUSNESS, and, as has been typical for me these past several years, THE RAINBOW BODY. KH, I agree, there ain't no step by step blueprint written to guide a person to as they build the STRUCTURE of their life, existence, as if they can purchase a BLUEPRINT or magazine like POPULAR MECHANICS. It ain't gonna happen. Vijnana and the Alaya-Vijnana are extremely dangerous things that we all are forced to exist with and deal with. Luckily the Buddha gave us an example of not even wanting to look at his new born son, not cast his eyes on his new born son, NOT COME INTO CONTACT WITH HIS NEW BORN SON. He simply jumped over the wall of his balcony and attempted to become an ascetic. I have some other thoughts but if I open those cans of worms I won't do them justice and illicit Nina's expertise properly. THANX FOR LETTING ME PLAY and get this out in the open so that my colleagues can have a better understanding of what I'm up to or not up to. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Howard, > > ------ > <. . .> > >H : I think we all pick & choose, favoring the ones (and their interpretation) that we are comfortable with and ignoring (or giving short shrift to) and reinterpreting those that make us uncomfortable. But I think it is important for us to try to resist this tendency. > ------ > > KH: Yes, but it is a tendency most people will be unable to resist. > > Most people come to Buddhism expecting to find a religion, or a conventional teaching of some kind. They are looking for a set of steps they can follow with the aim of getting somewhere in the future. > > But that kind of teaching is not to be found in the Pali texts. And so people who insist on finding it there are forced to change the wording of suttas, and to reject commentaries and Abhidhamma. > > ----------------- > <. . .> > >>> H: If there is truth in the Buddha's words, wouldn't they > elicit understanding so long as we immerse ourselves in them without interposing our own thinking?? > > >> KH: I don't believe it works that way. Remember the simile of the soup ladle - constantly immersed without ever knowing the taste of soup. <....> #114584 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? Dear Kevin, I am really glad to hear from you. As you say: But, I guess, each one will believe what he will believe. Mahaanama is a good example. Yes, as you guess, the debate about this subject occurs time and again. Op 17-apr-2011, om 1:58 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > In the back-notes of Bhikkhu Bodhi he says that in Majjhima Nikaya > Atthakatha > is stated that Mahanama was at that time a once returner (if > available see > notes 206 - 208 of the Wisdom Publications - mine is Third Edition) > and > suggests that "from this passage it seems that a disciple may > attain even to > the second path and fruit without possessing mundane jhana". - > excerpt from an > internet post by Ciprian Salagean at community.dhammaloka.org.au --------- > N: I translated from Thai 'Dhamma Issues' and here is again about > Mahaanaama who did not have fruition attainment (phalacittas > experiencing nibbaana that arise again in the course of life, after > the attainment of enlightenment) since he had not developed jhaana. ------ Footnotes: 1. He lives in abundance, in Pali: bahula.m viharti. He abides with six vihra dhammas, six recollections: recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, sla, the devas and liberality. 2. The same is said with regard to the other five recollections. With these six Recollections as meditation subjects, the ariyan can attain access concentration but not attainment concentration (appan- samdhi) or jhna. His unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem conditions calm and happiness. It is said that he lives in happiness, but, as we shall see, this is an abiding different from the "peaceful abiding", araa vihra, which can lead to fruition-attainment. --------- Nina. #114585 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:37 pm Subject: Re: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) Hi, Colette - In a message dated 4/17/2011 2:15:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi KH and Howard, THAT WAS A VERY SKILLFUL discussion! Applause to both of you. ===================================== Thank you for mentiong that. :-) I was very happy as a result of that conversation. (However, of course, whatever arises, ceases! LOL!) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114586 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhaana, was: Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. Hi Howard, I said to Lodewijk, now I have to answer Howard concerning jhaana. He said to give you his best regards. Op 16-apr-2011, om 12:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: In other words, when we read about samatha we should also keep in > mind that lokuttara citta experiencing nibbaana is of the strength of > jhaana. As said before, even those who did not develop mundane jhaana > and attain enlightenment have lokuttara cittas with calm of the > degree of the first stage of jhaana. The eradication of defilements > means actually the highest calm. > --------------------------------------------------------- > H: This sutta doesn't speak about keeping something in mind. > ------ N: You are right, but I just rendered the commentary for your info. ------ > H: It says "his > duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same > skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) > fermentations." Also, Nina, what about the rest of the sutta which > talks of people > without attainment in tranquility or insight or either and suggests > they go > for appropropriate training to those who HAVE developed mastery? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > N: quite true, the Buddha praised both samatha and vipassanaa in > this sutta and encouraged them to develop both. > Did he say that *everybody* should develop both? He addressed bhikkhus, and true, this can include also laypeople. People at that time had listened to his teachings, and not only that. They did not merely know the terms citta, jhaanacitta, jhaanafactors which are specific cetasikas, or the aasavas, intoxicants. They truly penetrated the characteristics of realities. I am not sure that people today have the same understanding. When discussing jhaanacitta this may be a mere abstraction. Some people may just try to concentrate on one point without truly penetrating the characteristics of citta, cetasika, ruupa. It has been stressed that the destruction of the aasavas is the goal. But do we know when there is di.t.thaasava (wrong view) or kaamaasava? There is kaamaasava at this moment, clinging to sense objects. There is seeing now and shortly afterwards clinging to visible object or to seeing arises already, but we do not know this. The attachment may be very, very subtle. If one does not realize this how can one see the danger of clinging, and how could one develop jhaana as a condition to be temporarily released from clinging to sense objects? For the development of jhaana one should know the characteristics of the cetasikas which are the jhaanafactors, like vitakka and vicaara, and know the difference between rapture (piiti) and happy feeling (sukha). Just now there may be rapture and happy feeling, but it is difficult to realize their difference. They seem very close. One should not just know the names of realities, but realize their different characteristics when they appear, now. I feel that I do not belong to one of the hundred or thousand people that can attain jhaana (see Visuddhimagga). We should also read the Abhidhamma, Puggala pa~n~natti which deals with dry insight. For me, speaking about jhaana is just speaking about an abstraction. I am only interested in realities appearing now. We have no time to lose to attend to what appears now. Otherwise the aasavas can never be eradicated. The sutta stresses the eradication of the aasavas and we have to carefully consider each word of the suttas, and not just of one sutta. Nina. > #114587 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:47 pm Subject: Re: Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? Dear Kevin, all, This is my opinion. We need to distinguish between minimum and optimum requirements for Sotapanna, and between capacities of people. What is required for one gifted person, may not be enough for another person. Ex: what works for Ugghatitannu individual will not work for Neyya individual. So I think that it is not right to focus only on the bare minimum for the gifted person and avoid taking instructions in context. IMHO, it is better to overdo the requirements rather than to try to do the minimum ones, fail, and loose confidence. With metta, Alex #114588 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhaana, was: Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/17/2011 9:54:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: I said to Lodewijk, now I have to answer Howard concerning jhaana. He said to give you his best regards. ================================ Thanks! My best to him as well!! :-) With metta, Howard #114589 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Dear Rob E KO: There is nothing wrong with the commentaries. The issue of dry insightors or panna vimutti (liberated by wisdom) is created due to comments made by B Bodhi in his own remarks in his translation of SN. pg 784 no 210. (Susima sutta) He said that the sutta established only that they lacked the abhinnas and aruppa; nothing is said whether they achieved or not the four jhanas. Then on pg 463 No 513. Those liberated by wisdom are arahants who attained the goal without mastering the formless meditation; for formal mediation see MN 1 477, 25-478 pg 581 Kitgari Sutta: MN Sutta 70 16: "What kind of person is liberated by wisdom? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by seeing with wisdom. I do not say such a Bikkhu that he still was work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent. KO: there is no indication of that those liberated by wisdom must have formal medition. In the notes at pg 1274 of the MN translated by B Bohid, the commentary <> To understand which is more consistent whether the commentary or B Bodhi, one have to look at pg 130 of Gradual Sayings (AN) Book of the fours, sutta 123 <> . . << .... he enters the fourth musing ..... is reborn in the company of Vehapphala devas. .. the lifespan of the Vehapphala deva is five hundred kalpa>> KO: The same state not a so good translation, B Bodhi put it a better way, Nibbana. AN IV 123 shown that there could be those diciples who could be liberated by wisdom just through one to four jhanas and not necessary must be through to the fourth jhanas as described in the stock formulae of most sutttas. The commentators position that liberated by wisdom are not inconsistent with the suttas that disciples could be liberated through one to fourth jhanas. KO: In the suttas there are many examples of disciple of Buddha attained enlightment through the listening of the suttas. Just like those in the Not-self sutta, the Bahiya sutta. Though some will argue that these disciples could have practise jhanas prior to listening to the dhamma, they forget something, that in the stock formulae of the suttas, it is immediately after the jhanas, there is three direct knowledge of divine eye, past live etc then to enlightenment. Also how could a person while listening to Buddha attain jhanas as sound is an opposing factor to jhanas, KO: There is why we should not make remarks that is not consistent with the anicent commentaries. That is why I always ask for the source of the interpretation by the DSGers as well like where in the text is that shown the difference between attanuditthi and sakkaya ditthi or the objects of mundane panna must be nama and rupa. I found AS interpretation of dhamma at times is not consistent with the text. Similarly, I found B Bodhi interpretation is not consistent. KO: There may be at times inconsistency in the commentaries, but that does not mean they are wrong, it is the way how we see it in the different context it is used. Just like the definition of space which is in the Questions of King Milinda is unconditioned like Nibbana then in the Debates commentary there should not be two unconditioned, there is only one which is Nibbana. Then how do we reconcile, it is because space is a concept that is why it is unconditioned, without the markers of earth or sun, will space be knowned. Space is know because there is boundary like the wall of the well or a house. There are four infinite, space is infinite. Infinite does not mean unconditioned. Just a sidetrack to explain the commentary :-) Ken O #114590 From: Rajesh Patil Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:18 am Subject: 300 people embrace Buddhism in Bhind, MP Jai-Bhim! 300 people of 55 families have embraced Buddhism in Bhind, MP. All those people belonged to Jatav and Dhobi community. More details of news is awaited. May all those who have embraced the Dhamma and those who have shown the path of dhamma be happy. with metta Rajesh Make India Buddhist #114591 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > KO: There is nothing wrong with the commentaries. The issue of dry insightors > or panna vimutti (liberated by wisdom) is created due to comments made by B > Bodhi in his own remarks in his translation of SN. pg 784 no 210. (Susima > sutta) He said that the sutta established only that they lacked the abhinnas and > aruppa; nothing is said whether they achieved or not the four jhanas. Then on > pg 463 No 513. Those liberated by wisdom are arahants who attained the goal > without mastering the formless meditation; for formal mediation see MN 1 477, > 25-478 > > > pg 581 Kitgari Sutta: MN Sutta 70 > 16: "What kind of person is liberated by wisdom? Here some person does not > contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and > immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by seeing with > wisdom. I do not say such a Bikkhu that he still was work to do with > diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more > capable of being negligent. > > > KO: there is no indication of that those liberated by wisdom must have formal > medition. > > > In the notes at pg 1274 of the MN translated by B Bohid, the commentary > < as dry insightor meditators (sukka - vipassaka) or after emerging from one or > another of the four jhanas.>> > > To understand which is more consistent whether the commentary or B Bodhi, one > have to look at pg 130 of Gradual Sayings (AN) Book of the fours, sutta 123 > < conditions, enters upon the first musing, which is accompanied by thought > directed and sustained, born of selusion, zestful and eastful and abides > therein. He enjoys its sweetness, longs for it and find happines therein. > Established therein, given thereto, generally spedning his time therein and not > falling away therefrom, when he makes an end he is reborn in the company of > devaus of the Brahma group. A kalpa, monks is the life-span of the devas of the > Brahma-group. Therein the ordinaryh man stays and spends his time according to > the life-span of those devas; then he goes to purgatory or the womb of an > animal, he goes to peta-realm. But a disciple of the Exalted One, after staying > there and spending his time according to the life-span of those devas, finally > passes away in the same state. Such monks is the distinction, such the > specifice feature, the difference between the learned Ariyan disciple and the > unlearn ordinary man in the matter of bourn and rebirth.>> > . > . > << .... he enters the fourth musing ..... is reborn in the company of Vehapphala > devas. .. the lifespan of the Vehapphala deva is five hundred kalpa>> > > KO: The same state not a so good translation, B Bodhi put it a better way, > Nibbana. AN IV 123 shown that there could be those diciples who could be > liberated by wisdom just through one to four jhanas and not necessary must be > through to the fourth jhanas as described in the stock formulae of most > sutttas. The commentators position that liberated by wisdom are not > inconsistent with the suttas that disciples could be liberated through one to > fourth jhanas. > > KO: In the suttas there are many examples of disciple of Buddha > attained enlightment through the listening of the suttas. Just like those in > the Not-self sutta, the Bahiya sutta. Though some will argue that these > disciples could have practise jhanas prior to listening to the dhamma, they > forget something, that in the stock formulae of the suttas, it is immediately > after the jhanas, there is three direct knowledge of divine eye, past live etc > then to enlightenment. Also how could a person while listening to Buddha attain > jhanas as sound is an opposing factor to jhanas, > > > > KO: There is why we should not make remarks that is not consistent with the > anicent commentaries. That is why I always ask for the source of the > interpretation by the DSGers as well like where in the text is that shown the > difference between attanuditthi and sakkaya ditthi or the objects of mundane > panna must be nama and rupa. I found AS interpretation of dhamma at times > is not consistent with the text. Similarly, I found B Bodhi interpretation is > not consistent. > > > > KO: There may be at times inconsistency in the commentaries, but that does not > mean they are wrong, it is the way how we see it in the different context it is > used. Just like the definition of space which is in the Questions of King > Milinda is unconditioned like Nibbana then in the Debates commentary there > should not be two unconditioned, there is only one which is Nibbana. Then how > do we reconcile, it is because space is a concept that is why it is > unconditioned, without the markers of earth or sun, will space be knowned. Space > is know because there is boundary like the wall of the well or a house. There > are four infinite, space is infinite. Infinite does not mean unconditioned. > Just a sidetrack to explain the commentary :-) Thank you for all of that good information. I always appreciate your knowledge, and the trouble you go to to find good sources to clarify what is being discussed. I think when I have a chance to look at the commentaries more closely - a bit at a time since it is difficult - I will develop a more intelligent opinion. In the meantime I appreciate your clarifications. Although it doesn't clear up all of my worries, it is very helpful! The best I can see so far, given all the different sources which sometimes talk about the need for jhanas and sometimes give some variant possibilities, is that the "stock" or normal way, as you say, that enlightenment is attained is through jhana + insight, or at least that is how it was usually done for the dedicated monks that practiced with the Buddha in his time. But Buddha also notes that at times someone may practice insight to the point of high development and then go into the jhanas to complete the path, and at other times, someone may attain high level of jhanas without enough insight and then seek further instruction to complete the work in insight. Then there are those occasions you mention where someone was enlightened just by hearing the Dhamma, and I have thought that in those cases that person was just so sharp in their potential for wisdom that they didn't need to suppress the defilements in order to let go completely and see the truth of existence, but those are not very usual cases. They are people whose eye of wisdom is naturally highly tuned, those who have very little "dust in the eyes" to start with. So we can't normally base our own progress on those special cases. It is like saying that in financial matters we can all be Bill Gates. Then there are the true "dry insight" or "wisdom only" developers who are not like Bahiya and are not enlightened instantly, but have a strong potential for insight, much stronger than their ability to develop jhana. I think this list will show you that those people are usually very intellectual people who have a high degree of intellectual understanding, so they are able to take the concepts of the Dhamma and use them as a powerful foundation for understanding. If those intellectual types are able to convert their pariyatti into true direct understanding at that point, they already have the knowledge but not the experience, so at the point that the true wisdom awakens, their knowledge will be transmuted into direct knowing and the factors that go with wisdom will be released in their consciousness. That is my rough sketch of how the dry insight path may work, though I am speculating. It seems to me that while there are places in the scriptures that allow for this to happen, that it is unusual and is not the surest path to true awakening, since it is so easy to spend lifetimes mistaking intellectual accumulation for wisdom. So dry insight as a real path I think depends on someone who can understand that what they are knowing with the mind is preparatory and not the complete perceptual transformation that will occur when their mundane body-mind perception is transformed into non-samsaric perception. Seeing things as they are has to be very different than seeing the ordinary world in front of your eyes and knowing Dhamma as a set of correct concepts in the mind. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114592 From: "James" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Vince and James, > Perhaps you did not have time to read Han's posts which are very > clear about this subject. But Han just gives info, does not like > discussions: > Sutta (Wheel-Turning Monarch), the Buddha said about the siila of a > Sotaapanna as follows: > > Ariyakantehi siilehi samannaagato hoti akha.n.dehi acchiddehi > asabalehi akammaasehi bhujissehi vi~n~nuppasatthehi aparaama.t.thehi > samaadhisa.mvattanikehi. > > Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translation: He possesses the virtues dear to the > noble ones, unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, > praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration. [Note 320] > Yes, the sotapanna possesses these "virtues", which are unbroken. But virtues are not actions, they are mental states, values, codes of honor, etc. Having perfect virtues doesn't necessarily mean that one is going to always act perfectly. People often do something which goes against their virtues/values and then feel regret afterward. Additionally, these are virtues "praised by the wise", in other words they are possesed by those who are not necessarily wise but the wise do praise them for these perfect virtues. Metta, James #114593 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:59 am Subject: Crucial Foundation! Friends: The Essential Foundation of Mental Purity! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these Four Foundations of Awareness. What four? When a Bhikkhu keenly contemplates: 1: Any Body just as a transient Form... 2: Any Feeling just as a passing Sensation... 3: Any Mind just as a momentary Mood... 4: Any Phenomena just as a flickering Mental State... while always acutely aware & clearly comprehending, he thereby removes any urge, envy, jealousy, frustration and discontent rooted in this world... These are the Four Foundations of Awareness... <...> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 173-4] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 24 Simple.. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114594 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? Thank you Nina. And thank you for the translation. Hope you are well. Best, Kevin ___________ Dear Kevin, I am really glad to hear from you. As you say: But, I guess, each one will believe what he will believe. Mahaanama is a good example. Yes, as you guess, the debate about this subject occurs time and again. #114595 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? I don't understand. Your logic seems fuzzy to be honest. The part of your personality that yearns to believe in the truth is very strong, but the part that will sit and listen without at the same time chattering to yourself about your own views seems to be slightly weak. Learning is extremely important. But the way you learn, the way you process information, your level of objectivity towards that information when analyzing it is also extremely important. Information is like food and the way you approach that information is like digestion. Without proper, strong digestion can you ever derive any nutriment or any benefit from the food you eat? It does not matter if one million seven course meals are in front of you if the vayu that processes food is weak and malfuctioning; you will still derive only a small amount of nutrition from the food you eat. The Perfection of Truth is of paramount importance. This is an important principle. This perfection deals with much more than just your ability to be honest. It also deals with honestly and a willingness to be objective to new information presented to you on many, many levels. Without this perfection you cannot attain enlightenment, and there cannot be even an ounce of happiness for you. I do admire your sincere dedication to the Dhamma, and your willingness to approach it and try to learn. This perfection, again, is paramount. Without it how can one know anything correctly? I wish you all the best. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Walshe DN. 33.2.3(5) 'Seven right practices (saddhammaa): Here, a monk has faith, moral shame and dread, has much learning, has aroused vigour (aaraddha-viriyo), has established mindfulness (upa.t.thita-sati hoti), possesses wisdom. #114596 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Dear Rob E, Op 17-apr-2011, om 0:27 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > it seems that the sutta still recommends that one complete the > "full package" of jhana + insight if possible. ------ N: Yes, *if possible*. These are important words. I do not belong to the happy few. I am disinclined to long debates: is this or this possible or impossible; all this is too abstract for me. Give me the present moment. What can be experienced now, through which doorway? No contradiction between commentaries and Tipitaka. See for instance about Mahaanama, the quote from the sutta, that I gave Kevin. The sutta may be very condensed and then the commentary elaborates. Nina. #114597 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts in the satipatthaanasutta. was: What Would Be Revising Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 17-apr-2011, om 0:27 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > it seems that the sutta still recommends that one complete the > > "full package" of jhana + insight if possible. > ------ > N: Yes, *if possible*. These are important words. I do not belong to > the happy few. I am disinclined to long debates: is this or this > possible or impossible; all this is too abstract for me. Give me the > present moment. What can be experienced now, through which doorway? > No contradiction between commentaries and Tipitaka. See for instance > about Mahaanama, the quote from the sutta, that I gave Kevin. > The sutta may be very condensed and then the commentary elaborates. I think the sutta as a condensed vehicle and the commentary spelling out its implications is the best argument for the importance of the commentaries and how the coms and suttas fit together. It still bothers me when the commentaries seem to go around the sutta instead of confronting its points more directly, but it may be due to my limited understanding. Still, the suttas are sometimes very clear about what they are talking about, and I like to see their meanings elaborated and not replaced. When Buddha says that someone who has not mastered jhana or insight should go out and find someone who understands these attainments and learn from them, I don't think there's any confusion about what he is saying. Still, it is true that not everyone can attain jhana or other attainments, and then they have to find their appropriate vehicle. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Have a question to Acharn Sujin Dear Lukas, Op 14-apr-2011, om 13:10 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > S: In other words, right understanding leads to less and less > thought > > or concern about "Me".... > > understand it's just a dhamma. Understanding begins to eliminate the > > idea of self from it, little by little. > > > > > Lukas, does this not answer your question? > > L: Actually it doesn't clear up much to me. Still ponder over that, > I am forgetful. > .... sitting doesnt change anything. It didn't make me feel more > concentrated or happy. > --------- N: Sitting does not lead to less ignorance of realities, avijjaa. I listened to a talk in Chiengmai. When listening to the Dhamma (N: reading or discussing it), understanding can begin. We cannot know characteristics immediately, but listen, understand more, understand more, Kh Sujin said. We do not know seeing, seeing is a dhamma. We cannot force seeing not to arise, it is anattaa. We can think of seeing but its arising and falling away are not known. We usually think about what has appeared, we 'see' flowers, we all do. These were Kh Sujin's words. We keep on thinking of stories and circumstances instead of knowing the characteristics of realities. That is not the characteristic of seeing. Kh Sujin spoke about sitting: When sitting, is there not an idea of 'I am sitting'? What appears now, while sitting? One may want to have more sati by sitting, she said. N: This is attachment to a self who wants to do something. Nina. #114599 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Upadhi (acquisitions) Dear Lukas, Op 16-apr-2011, om 16:53 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > N: Also lobha is a conditioned dhamma and its characteristic can be > > known. Not just the name lobha. We are inclined to think of terms > and > > names instead of realizing characteristics. > > L: What is the characteristic of lobha? -------- N: Quote from my Cetasikas: The Dhammasangani (1059), in the section where it deals with lobha as hetu, gives a long list of different names for lobha in order to illustrate its different shades and aspects. Lobha is compared to a creeper, it strangles its victim such as a creeper strangles a tree. It is like the ocean, it is insatiable. Lobha can be coarse or it can be more subtle such as hoping or expecting. It is a "bondage" because it binds beings in the round of births. It is a depravity because it corrupts the mind (2 See the Atthasalini II, Book II, Chapter II, 362.367.). The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition of lobha: greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like "monkey lime". Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. In proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. ------- N: This is in the book, but when you like something or want to have something, is there no clinging? Learn its characteristic little by little. Nina.