#114600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] on Seclusion nilovg Dear Alex, Op 16-apr-2011, om 3:54 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > Often it happens that certain worldly concerns (that may not > happen during physical seclusion) make a beginner forget about > khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus and stuck in the mire of worldly stuff. > ------ N: Of course, but this happens at any time , wherever we are. Even when in a quiet place. We like silence, lobha again. Or we worry about many things, dosa. ------- > A: As you know, the 2nd step of 7 states of purification is citta- > visuddhi, and it comes before purity of view... > From the commentaries, citta visuddhi is at least access or > momentary concentration - which takes some effort to achieve. Even > for views, certain amount of concentration is required. At very > least this implies ardent development of insight, and probably in > some form of physical seclusion. > -------- N: There is no visuddhi of any kind or degree without satipa.t.thaana. When there is right awareness and right understanding of a naama or ruupa that appears there are the three purities of siila, citta and view, di.t.thi (pa~n~naa). Siila is higher siila, not just kusala through body or speech but also through the mind. Citta is right concentration of the eightfold Path that has as object a naama or a ruupa. ------ Nina. #114601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma-priduced ruupas. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 11-apr-2011, om 16:08 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: >> >> N: Anything that appears through the eyesense can be seen by seeing- >> consciousness. > > V: I said that because in example, some birds and fishes are able > to see > the ultra-violet which is invisible to us. Other animals like dogs > cannot > perceive green. Etc. Even there is some people (achromats) who only > can perceive > black and white. ------- N: It does not matter, whatever is seen is visible object, a kind of ruupa. ------ > > V: As colors are defined like "rupa" in the Abhidhamma, Is this > variety of the > colors experience among beings the kamma-produced ruupa of eyesense? > ------- N: Eyesense is different for different beings, and it is the doorway and base for seeing-consciousness that experiences colour or visible object. There is a variety of colours but they are all just visible object. We may think about it, speculate about it, but it can only be understood when there is awareness of its characteristic just now, when it appears. That is essential. No need to think of animals or achromats. Nina. #114602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna nilovg Dear Vince and James, Op 16-apr-2011, om 7:06 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > At the end, the point is when we think sila can be perfect despite > a lack of > perfect wisdom (which can belongs only to arhants). ------- N: The sotaapanna still has defilements, such as lobha, dosa, maana, conceit. His siila is not perfect as you say. But he does not transgress the five precepts, and these do not include all degrees of siila. It means he will not commit grave akusala kamma that can result in an unhappy rebirth. ------- James: Having perfect virtues doesn't necessarily mean that one is going to always act perfectly. People often do something which goes against their virtues/values and then feel regret afterward. ------- N: Right, the sotaapanna still has to continue developing pa~n~naa until arahatship is reached. ------ Nina. #114603 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:59 am Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) kenhowardau Hi Colette and Howard, ---- <. . .> > Colette: THAT WAS A VERY SKILLFUL discussion! Applause to both of you. ---- KH: Thank you, glad you liked it. Not everyone would! ----------- > Colette: May play in this one? I'm gonna suggest taking our practices ONE STEP FURTHER <. . .> I'm looking at the MIND'S ability to control the body and thus manifest HEAT, also, the MIND'S ability to TRANSFER CONSCIOUSNESS, and, as has been typical for me these past several years, THE RAINBOW BODY. ---------- KH: Those conditioned dhammas are impressive things, but what about the *present* conditioned dhamma? Take visible object, for example: of all the infinite realities, this present visible object is the only one that could have arisen now. The rainbow body and manifested heat are impressive too, if and when they arise, but no more impressive than the present visible object. It is an absolute, complete and total miracle. ---- > Howard: I was very happy as a result of that conversation. (However, of course, whatever arises, ceases! LOL!) ---- KH: Does that mean I win? :-) Ken H #114604 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again sarahprocter... Dear Azita & Nina, Thanks for your feedback. Azita, hope you're finding your time in Thailand fruitful. Always interested to hear what you're up to - whether dhamma discussions, yoga retreats or travel! --- On Thu, 14/4/11, azita wrote: >> Without understanding, one is enslaved to lobha. >azita: and with understanding one begins to see jst how enslaved to lobha we really are. I so like the monkey lime simile for lobha. As soon as it arises it is stuck on something/anything and it arises so often in a day. as soon as the eyes open from sleeping there it is - lobha - for that 1st cuppa or whatever!!!! ... S: Just as you say -lobha from the moment we wake up. Yes, it's a great simile.... I remember when I was a child and my family would go on long car journeys with my mother trying to keep us quiet with sweets - it always seemed we could eat more and more......and now I'm paying the price with long sessions at the dentist! Anyway - lobha is like that all day, never satisfied with the various experiences through the senses - always wanting more enjoyable visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes and tangible objects. K.Sujin referred to a Pali phrase for "enslaved to lobha" - tanha + tasso(??) referring to a slave. Nina may know the term. I wished to add it in my notes, but wasn't sure of the exact word. Azita, if it's convenient, you might like to help Lukas share his qu with K.Sujin and give her first comments. Or Sukin might help.... Perhaps it would help nudge him into writing from time to time:-) Metta Sarah ======= #114605 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- On Wed, 13/4/11, Vince wrote: >I have found these comments from Nanavira Thera in "Clearing the Path", p.278) http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_screen-view_v1.pdf these are very coincident which what I wrote you in this thread about the things a Sotapanna is unable to do: .... S: Yes, these have been posted before. I disagree with many of his writings and ideas. He went to lengths to explain his views were more correct than those found in the texts, I think to justify his (imo false) belief that he was a sotapanna. Such a belief can be very harmful because it can prevent one from hearing the true dhamma and led to the expounding of false dhamma. I think B.Bodhi wrote a good essay refuting all the points, but don't have the link handy. It may be in the files section of DSG now I think about it. Many people underestimate the great wisdom of a sotapanna - even of the stages of insight. ... V:I was reviewing your messages but until today I cannot leave my view or I feel I'm not right. .... S: Only the development of understanding will provide the answer and remove all doubts. ... V:>It would be of great help getting more cites and sources. Do you know more about it?. It is not really for discussion, just to read them. ... S: I gave some before. Han, Ken O and others have given more. As Nina suggested, look under 'sotapanna' in U.P. However, whatever you read, I don't think you'll be convinced, because, like Ven Nanavira, there is a strong wish for a sotapanna to be like us - full of good intentions, but capable under particular circumstances of very unwholesome kamma. To me, this shows a lack of confidence in the Triple Gem. Metta Sarah ====== #114606 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again nilovg Dear Sarah (and Lukas, at end), Op 18-apr-2011, om 10:12 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > K.Sujin referred to a Pali phrase for "enslaved to lobha" - tanha + > tasso(??) referring to a slave. Nina may know the term. I wished to > add it in my notes, but wasn't sure of the exact word. ------ N: in Thai thaat. In Pali: daaso. > ------ > > S: Azita, if it's convenient, you might like to help Lukas share > his qu with K.Sujin and give her first comments. Or Sukin might > help.... Perhaps it would help nudge him into writing from time to > time:-) ------- N: Good idea. I remember Lukas quoting from the book of Analysis, Vibhanga, with so much enthusiasm. It will do him good! Dhamma is the best medicine. ----- Nina. #114607 From: Vince Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: I think B.Bodhi wrote a good essay refuting all the points, but don't have the > link handy. ok, good to know about it. I will search it. Thanks :) > S: I don't think you'll be convinced, because, like Ven Nanavira, there is a > strong wish for a sotapanna to be like us - full of good intentions, but > capable under particular circumstances of very unwholesome kamma. To me, this > shows a lack of confidence in the Triple Gem. yes, this impulse you wrote exists although in two directions: there is a wish to descend "the sanctity" to the world, and there is the wish to put it outside our reach and far of contaminations. We can see both impulses inside literature and the popular art representations in many religions, including Buddhism. I think both wishes can show confidence in the Triple Gem. Although the point of practice can be knowing the relation between wisdom and sila. In example, if the same unwholesome action deserves the same unwholesome kamma for a sotapanna. Or as you say, is there are unwholesome actions which are impossible to them. While the differences should be in wisdom, then knowing how panna acts regarding sila in the present moment also in us, not only in ariyan people. best, Vince. #114608 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? upasaka_howard Hi, Kevin - In a message dated 4/18/2011 1:57:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, farrellkevin80@... writes: I don't understand. Your logic seems fuzzy to be honest. The part of your personality that yearns to believe in the truth is very strong, but the part that will sit and listen without at the same time chattering to yourself about your own views seems to be slightly weak. ================================= Forgive me please, Kevin, but I don't see in your post who it is that you are addressing. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114609 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:11 am Subject: Re: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Colette) - In a message dated 4/18/2011 3:59:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Howard: I was very happy as a result of that conversation. (However, of course, whatever arises, ceases! LOL!) ---- KH: Does that mean I win? :-) ======================================== Well, what *this* seems to suggest is that I may have been wrong in writing "of course, whatever arises, ceases!" (or maybe I was correct - I'm getting confused now! ;-)) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114610 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:30 am Subject: Re: Have a question to Acharn Sujin szmicio Thank u Nina that was helpful. The point is I am lazy, I feel aversion to take a book and read it. Best wishes Lukas > --------- > N: Sitting does not lead to less ignorance of realities, avijjaa. I > listened to a talk in Chiengmai. When listening to the Dhamma (N: > reading or discussing it), understanding can begin. We cannot know > characteristics immediately, but listen, understand more, understand > more, Kh Sujin said. > We do not know seeing, seeing is a dhamma. We cannot force seeing not > to arise, it is anattaa. We can think of seeing but its arising and > falling away are not known. We usually think about what has appeared, > we 'see' flowers, we all do. These were Kh Sujin's words. > We keep on thinking of stories and circumstances instead of knowing > the characteristics of realities. That is not the characteristic of > seeing. > > Kh Sujin spoke about sitting: When sitting, is there not an idea of > 'I am sitting'? What appears now, while sitting? One may want to have > more sati by sitting, she said. > N: This is attachment to a self who wants to do something. > > Nina. > #114611 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Upadhi (acquisitions) szmicio Dear Nina, > N: This is in the book, but when you like something or want to have > something, is there no clinging? Learn its characteristic little by > little. L: Yes and also the characteristic of anatta? That it is only conditioned element not me, not I? Is it worth to learn that little by little? Best wishes Lukas #114612 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again szmicio Dear Sarah, Azita > S: ..I remember when I was a child and my family would go on long car journeys with my mother trying to keep us quiet with sweets - it always seemed we could eat more and more...... L: Well that may be interesting to hear more on those trips :P Where it was?In England? How could you deal wit pleasant sights? How with different pleasant stories about u in this or that 'wonderful' place? >S:and now I'm paying the price with long sessions at the dentist! L: So how do you manage this? pain and all unpleasantness? I used to think a long stories about me and myself...and also find myself I put so many importance to what other says about me. No rest at all. > K.Sujin referred to a Pali phrase for "enslaved to lobha" - tanha + tasso(??) referring to a slave. Nina may know the term. I wished to add it in my notes, but wasn't sure of the exact word. > > Azita, if it's convenient, you might like to help Lukas share his qu with K.Sujin and give her first comments. Or Sukin might help.... Perhaps it would help nudge him into writing from time to time:-) L: yes Azita. I would be greateful If you can pose my questions to Acharn. These questions are: "1. What's the characteristic of seeing? of hearing? etc. This seems like that is a lot of stories after seeing. Shall we try to know seeing or visible object now? Does considering thinking just as a mental phenomena-activity helps to understand more?". p.s I go for a trip with my friends now. We are gonna buy some coca-cola and have a sightseeing out of the town. There is sunny and those particulars kind of trips are deeply rooted in my mind. I used to did them since I was a child. Best wishes Lukas #114613 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Upadhi (acquisitions) nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 18-apr-2011, om 14:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > N: This is in the book, but when you like something or want to have > > something, is there no clinging? Learn its characteristic little by > > little. > > L: Yes and also the characteristic of anatta? That it is only > conditioned element not me, not I? Is it worth to learn that little > by little? ------ N: It is only a conditioned dhamma, and that means, it is anattaa, it does not belong to you. You cannot cause its arising or control it. We can learn its characteristic little by little, and this means: it takes time to become familiar with the different characteristics of realities. When you are on an outing or staying at home there are dhammas appearing all the time through the six doors. Mostly we are forgetful and ignorant. But because of discussing these dhammas there may be conditions sometimes to be aware of them, little by little, it does not matter. Each short moment of sati is accumulated and can be a condition for a later moment. No discouragement, no downheartedness. ------- Nina. #114614 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:47 am Subject: Resent: (To Nina Van Gorkom) Is Jhana..... farrellkevin80 Hi all, For some reason this message was sent but did not appear on the list. I am sorry I do not remember the policy for resending. Can someone explain it to me? Thank you! Kevin Original message: Hi thank you Nina. And thank you for the translation. Hope you are well. Best, Kevin ___________ Dear Kevin, I am really glad to hear from you. As you say: But, I guess, each one will believe what he will believe. Mahaanama is a good example. Yes, as you guess, the debate about this subject occurs time and again. ll, (And by the way my other message was to Alex. I hope this was clear). All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin #114615 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:20 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 nilovg Dear Han and friends, Latent Tendencies Ch 4, no 8. (the end) In the Points of Controversity, the Kathaavatthu and commentary, there are questions and answers with the purpose to eliminate the wrong view of the heretics such as the Uttaraapathakas who wrongly believed that the defilements to be eradicated by the magga-citta, namely the latent tendencies, were realities dependent on time [1]. They believed that the defilements that were past, future and present could be overcome. In the Kathaavatthu and commentary, there are questions and answers with the purpose to eliminate the wrong view of those who did not understand that when there is an appropriate condition the latent tendencies cause the arising of akusala citta (pariyutthaana kilesa). Some of the Andhakas and the Uttaraapathakas wronly believed that the latent tendencies that were dormant in the succession of cittas were not conjoined with citta, that they were ahetuka (without roots), indeterminate (avyaakata, in this case not akusala), and consequently without object [2]. In the Commentary to the Mahaaniddesa (to the Chapter of Eights, "The Purified") it is explained that the path-consciousness eradicates akusala dhammas which are latent tendencies that are there at that moment. This commentary quotes from the Abhisamayakathaa ("Convergence") of the "Path of Discrimination": "How can the defilements be eradicated that arise in the future?" It is answered that the person who has strength can eradicate latent tendencies because these are there at the present. The commentary to the "Yamaka" has the same explanation. It states that The "Path of Discrimination" deals with the question whether a person eradicates only defilements that are present. It answers that a person can eradicate latent tendencies, defilements that are powerful, because these are there at present. From the explanations of the foregoing texts it has been clearly shown that the magga-citta eradicates latent tendencies that are akusala dhammas which are present at that moment. ------- Footnotes: 1. Subject to arising, presence and ceasing. 2. This means that when there is an appropriate condition the latent tendency causes the (relevant) defilement ( akusala cetasika) to arise and perform its function. Then it must accompany citta (citta- sampayutta), it must have an object, be accompanied by roots. It can only be akusala. Thus, the medium defilement, pariyutthaana kilesa, conditioned by the latent tendency arises together with akusala citta. ********** (the end of this Thai treatise). Nina. #114616 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Resent: (To Nina Van Gorkom) Is Jhana..... nilovg Hi Kevin, No problem, it was on the list correctly on my computer. Your message to Alex did not appear as addressed to him, althouth I understood it as such. Moreover, all related messages are coloured blue on my computer. But if you start with the name of the adressee there will not be any misunderstanding I think. Sometimes the mods remind newcomers to put the name of the addressee at the beginning and to sign off with their own name. Nina. Op 18-apr-2011, om 17:47 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > For some reason this message was sent but did not appear on the list. #114617 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? farrellkevin80 Hello Howard, My apologies for not being clear. The message was a response to Alex. ___________ With metta Kevin Forgive me please, Kevin, but I don't see in your post who it is that you are addressing. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114618 From: "colette" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:59 am Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) ksheri3 Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: Those conditioned dhammas are impressive things, but what about the *present* conditioned dhamma? Take visible object, for example: of all the infinite realities, this present visible object is the only one that could have arisen now. The rainbow body and manifested heat are impressive too, if and when they arise, but no more impressive than the present visible object. It is an absolute, complete and total miracle. > > ---- colette: Miraculous? Maybe we could refer to LIFE, itself, as being a miracle and that we are lucky enough to participate in it's wonders but that's what it's all about, the wonder of it all. I'll come back to finish this thought later today. toodles, colette > > Howard: I was very happy as a result of that conversation. (However, of course, whatever arises, ceases! LOL!) > ---- > > KH: Does that mean I win? :-) > > Ken H > #114619 From: philip Coristine Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:49 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna philofillet Hi James. How's life, always nice to come across your name. The idea that virtue is not to be understood in terms of action of body speech and mind but rather as states of mind and that a person of perfect virtue can still do bad things....James, that can't be right! Where does that idea come from? Sila is behaviour of body speech and mind and if we behave badly we do not have perfected virtue, no way! It would be foolish to kick ourselves over transgression but if there is transgression any notion of perfected sila very obviously goes out the window as far as I can see. Metta, Phil To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: buddhatrue@... Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 02:27:32 +0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Vince and James, > Perhaps you did not have time to read Han's posts which are very > clear about this subject. But Han just gives info, does not like > discussions: > Sutta (Wheel-Turning Monarch), the Buddha said about the siila of a > Sotaapanna as follows: > > Ariyakantehi siilehi samannaagato hoti akha.n.dehi acchiddehi > asabalehi akammaasehi bhujissehi vi~n~nuppasatthehi aparaama.t.thehi > samaadhisa.mvattanikehi. > > Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translation: He possesses the virtues dear to the > noble ones, unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, > praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration. [Note 320] > Yes, the sotapanna possesses these "virtues", which are unbroken. But virtues are not actions, they are mental states, values, codes of honor, etc. Having perfect virtues doesn't necessarily mean that one is going to always act perfectly. People often do something which goes against their virtues/values and then feel regret afterward. Additionally, these are virtues "praised by the wise", in other words they are possesed by those who are not necessarily wise but the wise do praise them for these perfect virtues. Metta, James #114620 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Jhana necessary for Sotapanna? upasaka_howard Hi, Kevin (and Alex) - In a message dated 4/18/2011 5:38:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, farrellkevin80@... writes: Hello Howard, My apologies for not being clear. The message was a response to Alex. ---------------------------------------------- No problem - and thanks for the clarification. :-) --------------------------------------------- ___________ With metta Kevin ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114621 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:05 pm Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- >>> H: I was very happy as a result of that conversation. (However, of course, whatever arises, ceases! LOL!) >> KH: Does that mean I win? :-) > H: Well, what *this* seems to suggest is that I may have been wrong in writing "of course, whatever arises, ceases!" (or maybe I was correct - I'm getting confused now! ;-)) --- KH: My mistake: I thought you were saying the conversation had ceased, but you were actually saying happiness ceased. There are many things I might be called right now, but winner is not one of them. :-) Ken H #114622 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna truth_aerator Hello Phil, all, Virtue is not "being unable to do bad". Virtue is when one can do really really bad things but abstains due to strong conviction. With metta, Alex #114623 From: philip Coristine Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:34 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna philofillet Hi Alex Interesting, thanks. But at what point does one say "virtue is perfected?" If there are incidents of failing to abstain can we possibly say virtue is perfected? And isn't virtue as defined by never transgressing against precepts established for the Ariyan? I had assumed it was, thought that was a given but now am hearing new ideas about it, which is good I guess, I hope the ideas are firmly backed by the tipitika and are not just the ideas of some modern teacher. Metta, Phil Metta, Phil To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: truth_aerator@... Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 01:13:54 +0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Hello Phil, all, Virtue is not "being unable to do bad". Virtue is when one can do really really bad things but abstains due to strong conviction. With metta, Alex #114624 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:42 pm Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) kenhowardau Hi Colette, --- > colette: Miraculous? Maybe we could refer to LIFE, itself, as being a miracle and that we are lucky enough to participate in it's wonders but that's what it's all about, the wonder of it all. --- KH: I couldn't agree more. When the Buddha taught "the way things are" he gave us the best gift of all. It is the most wonderful knowledge we could possibly have. ----- > Colette: I'll come back to finish this thought later today. ----- KH: Looking forward to it! Ken H #114625 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:49 pm Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 hantun1 Dear Nina,  Thank you very much for your post on Ch 4, no 8. I have one question, please.  > [In the Commentary to the Mahaaniddesa (to the Chapter of Eights, “The Purified”) it is explained that the path-consciousness eradicates akusala dhammas which are latent tendencies that are there at that moment. This commentary quotes from the Abhisamayakathaa (“Convergence”) of the “Path of Discrimination”: “How can the defilements be eradicated that arise in the future?” It is answered that the person who has strength can eradicate latent tendencies because these are there at the present.]  [Han]: I cannot find such a statement in Abhisamayakathaa of Pa.tisambhidaamagga. What I find, with regard to abandoning of future defilements, in paragraph 11, is as follows.  [If he abandons future defilements, he abandons what has not been born, he abandons what has not been generated, he abandons what has not arisen, he abandons what has not become manifest. What is future, which is non-existent, that he abandons? He does not abandon future defilements.]  [Han]: Even after the example of a young tree with unborn fruit, in paragraph 12, I cannot find the statement, that the person who has strength can eradicate latent tendencies because these are there at the present. Is this statement in the *Commentary* of Pa.tisambhidaamagga?  Respectfully, Han  #114626 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:59 pm Subject: Mountain of Advantage! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to Accumulate a Mountain of Advantage? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, if anyone were to say about something, that it is a Mountain of Advantage, then it is about the Four Foundations of Awareness that one could rightly say this. For this is indeed an absolute accumulation of advantage, these Four Foundations of Awareness. What four? When an determined and devoted Bhikkhu considers: 1: The Body just as a transient frame: An empty container ... 2: The Feelings only as fleeting contacts: A short reactive blink ... 3: The Mind merely as temporary temper: A mentally habitual mood... 4: Phenomena as made up of and manifested by momentary mental states ... while always acutely aware and clearly comprehending, he thereby removes any greed, envy, jealousy, irritation and dissatisfaction rooted in this world... If, bhikkhus, one were to say of anything: A heap of pure advantageousness, it is about these four establishments of mindfulness that one could rightly say this. For this is a complete and excellent mass of good uplifting future, that is, these Four Foundations of Awareness... <...> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V: 187] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 45 Accumulated Advantage.. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #114627 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] on Seclusion sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Sat, 16/4/11, truth_aerator wrote: >N: But such are the conditions now, and we cannot choose these. >Whatever happens does so because it is conditioned. Let us make the >best of it. A:>I agree with that, and I do hope that you and Sarah are right regarding "seclusion". >>S: Slowly we can begin to understand that the only seclusion that is >of any value is the mental seclusion at a moment of understanding >and >awareness. This mental seclusion, the living alone with the >present >citta, can only ever be now. .... A:>The thing that I was talking about is that only Arahants are perfectly mentally secluded, and for them it doesn't matter the external things. But we aren't them, and truths that apply to them, do not apply to us. .... S: How do they become arahats? Only by the development right understanding of the realities of life with detachment from what is experienced through the sense doors. This can only be by hearing and considering the Teachings and developing such understanding of the Truths - the same Truths that apply to all. The khandhas of grasping are dukkha at this moment, at every moment, no matter the circumstances. .... A:>Often it happens that certain worldly concerns (that may not happen during physical seclusion) make a beginner forget about khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus and stuck in the mire of worldly stuff. .... S: The problem, as the Buddha taught us, is the ignorance which is prevalent throughout most the day, regardless of the circumstances. This is why the Buddha taught that the cause of the Cycle is ignorance, not "worldly stuff". .... >A:Also when one is very concentrated (upacara or better), externals do not bother one. But not everyone has such kind of state arise often enough, and it is difficult to attain and keep it when not in physical seclusion. As you know, the 2nd step of 7 states of purification is citta-visuddhi, and it comes before purity of view... .... S: As Nina has pointed out, there is no visuddhi, not even sila visuddhi, without the development of satipatthana. Why does one not want to be bothered by "externals"? Attachment again. So the problem here is the clinging to being concentrated, and not being disturbed by worldly affairs. Such attachment will never lead to the development of calm or right understanding. Sometimes people are so attached to their concentration, that they are annoyed when their family or friends wish to speak to them or have assistance. There is a lack of metta, a latter of kusala of any kind at such times. .... >A:From the commentaries, citta visuddhi is at least access or momentary concentration - which takes some effort to achieve. Even for views, certain amount of concentration is required. At very least this implies ardent development of insight, and probably in some form of physical seclusion. >Any comments? .... S: Visuddhi is not a matter of making an effort. It's a matter of the development of right understanding with the other path factors. In particular, it has to begin with the understanding of dhammas as anatta, beyond anyone's control. There is concentration throughout the day - almost all of it is akusala. When we try to be concentrated, we can be sure it's akusala. The development of insight is never about "some form of physical seclusion". It is always about the mental seclusion of right understanding - understanding and living alone with the dhamma that can be known now. Metta Sarah ====== #114628 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:22 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Upadhi (acquisitions) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Sat, 16/4/11, philip Coristine wrote: > I think it is Bhikkhu Bodhi who said > that sakkaya ditthi refers to the khandas as an integral > unit (ie all 5 rising together to give the idea of a self) > but I do remember the 20 variants, so propely understood, > sakkaya ditthi is just one moment of seeing as me, mine, my > self or...well, it's not important right now. ...S: As I understand, the sakkaya ditthi has to refer to one reality - taking one reality for self in one of the four ways. Remember what K.Sujin was saying and which I noted the other day: Nothing but darkness - one object is experienced at a time and then we think a lot about everything. Khandha - the meaning is that nothing is left after it has gone. Visible object never comes back, sound, thinking never come back. We live with the idea of many things in the world and "I", but actually only darkness (except at the moment visible object is experienced) and the experiencing and nothing is left from moment to moment. S: It always seems that there is something/someone experienced or something/someone experiencing, but just visible object, just a khandha which is experienced and then gone. A good point to raise. Metta Sarah===== #114629 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Self-view & Computer Rage sarahprocter... Hi Antony, --- On Sat, 16/4/11, antony272b2 wrote: > I'd better clarify my question. > > > >A:For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? > > Antony: I'm experiencing a phobia of intense fear bordering on terror that I'll get permanent RSI if I force the keyboard or mouse to complete something on the computer. My question about self-view is looking for an alternative to saying "You won't let me do it!" when there is no evidence that there is a "you" present that is stopping me from doing what I think I want. .... S: The problem is mind-created. It is the thinking and fear, more thinking, more fear, without any understanding of conditioned dhammas. We get lost in all our various stories about ourselves and our problems, not realising that it such thinking, such illusion, that is creating the difficulties. We forget all about conditioned dhammas which are anatta. .... >Antony: As I said, in hindsight what seems to have stopped me from completing the task was strong wise intuition that it was for the best. I say "But you won't tell me why!" which brings on the computer rage. I need to find an alternative to addressing a being "you". .... S: Whether you continue the task or stop, it's because of conditioned dhammas. There are no beings, Antony, just thinking about beings which causes such hallucinations. It's the accumulated tendency to thinking with ignorance (and wrong view) and the accumulated attachment and anger which "brings on the computer rage". There's no use in looking for external causes. ... >A: I also found this quote: > "...the mind reacts to the results of its own actions. These reactions can take the form of positive feedback loops, intensifying the original input and its results, much like the howl in a speaker placed next to the microphone feeding into it." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/index.html >From: Wings to Awakening by Thanissaro Bhikkhu .... S: From the "HoneyBall Sutta": "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future ideas cognizable via the intellect." .... >A: PS I like to think of nama and rupa as events rather than things that are present. What do you think? .... S: Namas and rupas are not events - they are realities, paramattha dhammas, such as seeing, feeling, thinking now. Not a long story or situation - just a dhamma which arises and falls away instantly. Metta Sarah ====== #114630 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is "direct" understanding? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Fri, 15/4/11, truth_aerator wrote: >It is impossible to reach path and fruit (not just samatha) as long as one delights in company. >"Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will â€" without difficulty, without trouble â€" the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will â€" without difficulty, without trouble â€" the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html .... S: And, in an ultimate sense, what is the "company" that has to be overcome? From the same sutta: “Ānanda, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear…Odors cognizable by the nose…Flavors cognizable by the tongue…Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure." While the anusaya of sensual desire has not been eradicated, it will condition the arising of sensual attachment to what is experienced through the senses, regardless of whether we are alone in a forest or in the midst of a crowd in a city. The defilements follow one wherever one goes. See all the saved messages under "Seclusion" in U.P. Metta Sarah ======= The suttas are clear about the benefits of physical seclusion. With best wishes, Alex #114631 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Robert E wrote: >>S: Slowly we can begin to understand that the only seclusion that is of any value is the mental seclusion at a moment of understanding and awareness. This mental seclusion, the living alone with the present citta, can only ever be now. >R:Thanks, Sarah, always good to hear. And you put it very poetically too. "This mental seclusion...can only ever be now." Very nice, and a clear understanding to contemplate. .... S: I liked these quotes that Ven Samahita gave along the same lines, as I read them: >Kaayamunim vacamunim, manomunimanaasavam, munim moneyyasampannam. Ahu ninhaatapâpakam. Silenced in body, silenced in speech, silenced in mind, without inner noise, blessed with silence is the sage! He is truly washed of all evil... Itivuttaka 3.67 Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the tranquillity; So is the serenity; of one freed by the insight of right understanding... Dhammapada 96< ***** Metta Sarah ===== #114632 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness of 4 elements within one's body sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Wed, 13/4/11, Lukas wrote: >>Read what Sarah wrote to Anthony: > Sarah to Antony:< I really think that understanding present dhammas > which appear now is the way to overcome ideas of situations as > exisiting, ideas of atta. When there is more understanding of these > conditioned dhammas, there will be less "computer rage"... > >L: What does Sarah mean by present dhammas? I dont feel any dhammas. There is a lot of trash in my head instead. The only thing I can be conscious of is a lot of thinking, concepts. .... S: By "present dhammas", I mean sound which is heard, tangible object which is touched, feeling, seeing - what can be directly known now. When we know that it is only tangible object which is touched, what is there to get angry about? When it is only sound which is heard, why would we be mad at 'someone' or 'something'? Yes, most the time, there's "a lot of trash" in our heads, but beginning to understand that it is just thinking about "trash" is already a great help. No person who thinks, just thinking on account of what has been experienced through the senses. And it's not thinking about trash all the time. In between there are sense experiences and bhavanga cittas. Even the moments of thinking are very, very brief - arising and falling away instantly. All the thinking about trash has now gone, so there can be a beginning again now, a beginning to understand what appears now. Metta Sarah ====== #114633 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 3 to Ken O concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, I've been appreciating all your textual quotes recently. In this thread, you were questioning my use of 'dhammas' as referring to realities, i.e. namas and rupas. I gave some quotes to indicate that this is a common use of 'dhamma' in the texts. --- On Thu, 14/4/11, Ken O wrote: >S:....The Commentary to the "Muulapariyaayasutta" explains dhamma as neyya: in the passage: "All dhammas in all their modes enter the threshold of the >Exalted One's portal of knowledge," it is the knowable. Here the word occurs >in the sense of things endowed with a specific nature (sabhaava). This is >the word-meaning: "They bear their own characteristics, thus they are >dhammas" (attano lakkha.na.m dhaarentii ti dhammaa).> >The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to bear." ... >KO - Using the reference you use above, I extract below the actual text for the meaning of dhamma use as said in the commentary of Muulapariyaayasutta. pg 32, translated by B Bodhi, BPS. CY. The word "dhamma" is found used in the following senses: the scriptures (pariyatti), the (Four Noble) Truths (sacca), concentration (samadhi), wisdom (panna), nature (pakati), things endowed with a specific nature (sabhava), emptiness (sunnata), merit (punna), a discipline offence (apatti), the knowable (neyya) etc. In the passage; "Herein a bhikkhu masters the Dhamma - the suttas, songs, " etc (M.22/1,134), it occurs in the sense of scriptures. "He saw the Dhamma understood the Dhamma" (D.3/i,110) - in the sense of the (Four Noble) Truth. "Those Exalted Ones were of such dhammas" (D.28/iii,100) - concentration. "Truth, dhamma, fortitude, generosity (Jat. v 57) - wisdom. "Of a nature to be born, of a nature to grow old, of a nature to die (D.22/ii,307) - nature. "Wholesome dhammas" (Dhs Matika I) - things endowed with a specific nature. "On that occassion there were dhammas" (Dhs $121 etc) - emptiness. "Dhamma well-practised issues in bliss" (Sn v 184) - merit. "Two dhammas are unfixed." (Vin.iii, 94) - a disciplinary offense. And in the passage: "All dhammas in all their modes enter the threshold of the Exalted One's portal of knowledge," it is the knowable. Here the word occurs in the sense of things endow with a specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkhanam dhaarenti ti dhammaa)>> .... >KO The text explained itself that dhamma is not restricted or only to paramatha dhamma or to just because it bear its own characteristic or endow with a specific nature ... S: Yes, I've quoted the same fine passage above and many others which show that "dhamma" can have different meanings in different contexts. The point, however, was that I was indicating that the meaning I was using in this thread for dhamma, i.e that of reality (paramattha dhamma) has plenty of textual support, including this passage. I've never suggested that this is the only way that dhamma/Dhamma is ever used. In other contexts, it can refer to the Teachings, to concepts as well as paramattha dhammas and further meanings as discussed. Metta Sarah ===== #114634 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Thu, 14/4/11, truth_aerator wrote: >A:Ptsm clearly states that training in higher wisdom can be done >through anapanasati. But this of course requires seclusion. > .... > S: Ptsm clearly states that the objects of higher wisdom are any >realities at all appearing now - any khandha whatsoever now can be >directly known. It doesn't say that everyone should know the reality >of the rupa known as breath now. ... A:>Even when one is born in lower realms or chopping off chicken's head in human realm? ... S: What appears at such times? The khandhas, the realities. What can be known at such times, if there are any conditions for wisdom to arise? .... A:>While I agree that if one can't change the circumstances, then do the best you can in those circumstances - .... S: "If one can't change the circumstances..." There is no "one" to change anything. "The circumstances" are not khandhas.....just a long story about what one mistakenly takes for reality. .... >The Buddha and VsM are clear: There are better places and there are less ideal places. Even the Buddha took some time off, in physical seclusion. Anapanasati, Satipatthana and many other instructions require physical seclusion. No matter how hard it is, no matter how much I would wish that any place (including my bed, I have terrible health) is the best place, the suttas state what they state... .... S: Where does it state that there cannot be the development of satipatthana whilst in bed? Doesn't the Satipatthana Sutta refer to the development of satipatthana in all postures? Where and when did Ananda become an arahat? Metta Sarah ======== #114635 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Mon, 11/4/11, Ken O wrote: >>S:The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises. .... >KO: I try to search for the statements that javana cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya in the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary and I also try to look at the CMA under cittas where citta could accumulate, I could not find it, could you point to the actual text whether it is written by the commentaries or by the interpretation of B Bodhi. ... S: OK, read the Patthana under pakatupanissaya paccaya! Also, see under "accumualtions" in UP. (no texts with me). It doesn't matter what word we use for "accumulate". I agree that often in context, accumulate refers to kamma. This is usually a translation of ayuhana or something else pertaining to kamma in particular, not to pakatupanissaya. ... >K: As for panna, usually the text use is about develop the panna and not panna accumulates. If one will infer that this such is accumulation, I dont think I like to argue much on this. The actual technical terms, only kamma accumulates and not other cetasikas and citta unles prove otherwise by the texts. ... S: "develop the panna" so that panna accumulates. Just as lobha accumulates, so can panna. From "The Expositor" on the meaning of bhavana: " 'Develops'(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here...." S: "Increase" or accumulate. Before we've both quoted suttas indicating that tendencies and ways of thinking accumulate. This is all by pakatupanissaya paccaya. As I said, I agree that ayuhana or one or two other specific terms refer to kamma, but cetana arising in the javana process is not the only nama which accumulates! Metta Sarah ===== #114636 From: "azita" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again gazita2002 hallo Lucas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Azita ............snip > > Azita, if it's convenient, you might like to help Lukas share his qu with K.Sujin and give her first comments. Or Sukin might help.... Perhaps it would help nudge him into writing from time to time:-) > > L: yes Azita. I would be greateful If you can pose my questions to Acharn. These questions are: > > "1. What's the characteristic of seeing? of hearing? etc. This seems like that > is a lot of stories after seeing. Shall we try to know seeing or visible object > now? Does considering thinking just as a mental phenomena-activity helps to > understand more?". azita: I will put yr questions to Achan in the next few days, Lucas. hope you enjoy yr time with yr friends. Remember, we cannot stop enjoyment, when there are conditions for it to arise, it will arise and no one to stop it - that is just its characterisitic. patience, courage and good cheer, azita > > p.s > > I go for a trip with my friends now. We are gonna buy some coca-cola and have a sightseeing out of the town. There is sunny and those particulars kind of trips are deeply rooted in my mind. I used to did them since I was a child. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #114637 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:24 am Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio hi Azita > azita: I will put yr questions to Achan in the next few days, Lucas. > hope you enjoy yr time with yr friends. Remember, we cannot stop enjoyment, when there are conditions for it to arise, it will arise and no one to stop it - that is just its characterisitic L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigaret. Best. Lukas #114638 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Sarah ... S: OK, read the Patthana under pakatupanissaya paccaya! Also, see under "accumualtions" in UP. (no texts with me). It doesn't matter what word we use for "accumulate". I agree that often in context, accumulate refers to kamma. This is usually a translation of ayuhana or something else pertaining to kamma in particular, not to pakatupanissaya. .. KO: nope there is no textual support for this, you have to provide the support or it is just base on one's intepretation. So far I did not come across text that citta accumulate. >K: As for panna, usually the text use is about develop the panna and not panna >accumulates. If one will infer that this such is accumulation, I dont think I >like to argue much on this. The actual technical terms, only kamma accumulates >and not other cetasikas and citta unles prove otherwise by the texts. ... S: "develop the panna" so that panna accumulates. Just as lobha accumulates, so can panna. From "The Expositor" on the meaning of bhavana: " 'Develops'(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here...." S: "Increase" or accumulate. Before we've both quoted suttas indicating that tendencies and ways of thinking accumulate. This is all by pakatupanissaya paccaya. As I said, I agree that ayuhana or one or two other specific terms refer to kamma, but cetana arising in the javana process is not the only nama which accumulates! KO: Kamma is the cetasikas that acccumulates, panna cannot accumulate, it could only be increase and develop further. Likewise for tendecies, they strengthen but not accumulate. I do not know how to explain the difference but I know there is a difference. There is a reason in the commentary why it was panna or craving or latency increase or strengthen while kamma accumulates. the only cause I could think of right now Thse notes are base on my personal opinion - Through accumulation one is born with the thriple roots. When the three kusala roots arise with kamma, the kusala volitions are accumulated in kamma. Accumulation is like habit and could cause good or bad dhamma to arise. that is why dhamma is known as "chief" in the sankhara aggregate. They are strong inducer just like feelings and perceptions. I am really not sure how to explain as my understanding in this area is yet clear or I could be wrong, Ken O #114639 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:24 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your observation which is very good. It took me a while to check again. I have the Thai of the Mahaaniddesa, and also of the Pa.tisambhidaamagga and commentary. Indeed, the Mahaaniddesa gives all the different points about the anusayas and also states what I quoted. But, like you, I do not find this word by word in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga nor in its commentary. To be on the safe side I changed the text somewhat but not the contents: Op 19-apr-2011, om 5:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han]: I cannot find such a statement in Abhisamayakathaa of > Pa.tisambhidaamagga. What I find, with regard to abandoning of > future defilements, in paragraph 11, is as follows. > > [If he abandons future defilements, he abandons what has not been > born, he abandons what has not been generated, he abandons what has > not arisen, he abandons what has not become manifest. What is > future, which is non-existent, that he abandons? He does not > abandon future defilements.] > > [Han]: Even after the example of a young tree with unborn fruit, in > paragraph 12, I cannot find the statement, that the person who has > strength can eradicate latent tendencies because these are there at > the present. Is this statement in the *Commentary* of > Pa.tisambhidaamagga? --------- N: This I find after the simile of the young tree ( (Pa.tisambhidhamagga II, 217 f.): In the future there is no more oportunity for their arising. In that sense one can say: he abandons future defilements. ------ Nina. #114640 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Robert E wrote: > > >>S: Slowly we can begin to understand that the only seclusion that is of any value is the mental seclusion at a moment of understanding and awareness. This mental seclusion, the living alone with the present citta, can only ever be now. > > >R:Thanks, Sarah, always good to hear. And you put it very poetically too. "This mental seclusion...can only ever be now." Very nice, and a clear understanding to contemplate. > .... > S: I liked these quotes that Ven Samahita gave along the same lines, as I read them: > > >Kaayamunim vacamunim, > manomunimanaasavam, > munim moneyyasampannam. > Ahu ninhaatapďż˝pakam. > > > Silenced in body, silenced in speech, > silenced in mind, without inner noise, > blessed with silence is the sage! > He is truly washed of all evil... > Itivuttaka > 3.67 > > > Calm is his mind. > Calm is his speech. > Calm is his action. > So is the tranquillity; > So is the serenity; > of one freed by the insight > of right understanding... > Dhammapada 96< Thank you for repeating those quotes, Sarah, they are very nice. It's hard for me to read those without thinking of the peace and lack of thought that exists in the jhanas. It makes me think that jhana and the final cessation of proliferations that comes to the arahant have a very strong similarity and relationship. Those quotes also remind me that 'right understanding' is a state of silence, rather than one of thought. That is very interesting. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114641 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and Alex. Apologies, Alex, for speaking of you in the third person below, for grammatical continuity. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Alex wrote: > Anapanasati, Satipatthana and many other instructions require physical seclusion. No matter how hard it is, no matter how much I would wish that any place (including my bed, I have terrible health) is the best place, the suttas state what they state... > .... > S: Where does it state that there cannot be the development of satipatthana whilst in bed? Doesn't the Satipatthana Sutta refer to the development of satipatthana in all postures? Where and when did Ananda become an arahat? Just wanted to put in my two cents, and take the opportunity to agree with you. :-) While there may be ideal physical conditions for doing certain practices, there is no reason why insight or understanding cannot arise at any time. Whether it will or not is another story; it is probably more likely if there has already been some development of mindfulness. You also note that Buddha did say to practice mindfulness in every activity and in every position, and that is definitely true. I think it's important in Alex's situation and in whatever situation we may be in to know that practice does not stop at the cushion but is part of the experience of consciousness. We may argue whether practice increase mindfulness, but I think we agree that whether or not that is the case, mindfulness is possible at any time. I remember hearing an explanation of the continued practice of mindfulness, and I think it was from Bikkhu Bodhi based on some of the ancient texts, that when the monks went into the local village or town to beg for food they were instructed to keep their awareness partially fixed on their object of meditation, so that there would never be a full break from the practice of satipatthana. They would do the necessary activities in town while keeping the internal object in mind, and then when they returned they would more fully attend the object of meditation. In that way the practice of satipatthana for those monks was continuous. And I recall that in one of the passages you are citing about the different positions and activities that Buddha said to maintain practice of mindfulness even while asleep! I guess that would be a challenge for the less advanced monks. For the monks living that lifestyle, the continuous practice that went from their "formal" practice to every other aspect of their life, whether eating, begging, sleeping or going to the bathroom, would form a norm that would tend to supplant any kind of normal indulgence of consciousness, I would think, and lead to the kind of continued refinement and development of satipatthana that would lead to the higher attributes. Although most of us may not be able to practice that way outside of the monastery, your focus on being open to whatever moment arises as an object of awareness leaves the door open for that kind of experience. Also, thinking of Alex's situation, I recall that one of the great T'ai Chi masters started out as a layman who was very sick in his 40s and was going to die. It was suggested to him that he practice T'ai Chi, and he said: "How can I practice the standing movements of T'ai Chi when I can't even get out of bed or move my body?" But he thought about it and picked up the book of instructions he had been given and decided he would go through the T'ai Chi movements in his mind. He went through the entire sequence mentally a number of times in bed, and began to discover that energy was coming back into his body and that he was feeling a bit better. When he was able, he got out of bed and started practicing physically and made a full recovery. He continued to practice to the point where he became the master himself and continued the tradition to a very old age. I believe, if I recall correctly, that this is the story of the great Yang style T'ai Chi master Chen-man Ching, who was one of the most amazing of the T'ai Chi masters. He used to do things like disappear on one side of the room and appear on the other side, or so it seemed. A very small man with skinny arms, he would touch someone lightly and they would fly across the room. I saw some activity like this when I studied with one of his descendents, Master William CC Chen in New York. Chen-man Ching had an expression "arms too weak" as he had such skinny arms, which meant to rely on the inner energy and not on physical strength. He had another even more interesting motto, "Invest in loss." He would basically say that when you were willing to lose and you let go of any desire to defeat the opponent, you cannot be thrown off balance and you wind up standing your ground. The reason I am going on about this, is that one shouldn't be totally ruled by the appearance of physical attributes or physical circumstances, as there are always other factors at play, and other potentials possible. Even though things may seem quite impossible, it is worth considering what one can do anyway. I hope that Alex can practice mindfulness in bed, even when he is unable to sit up. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114642 From: nichicon cp Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:44 am Subject: Sangiitisutta Sevens sutta 13 nichiconn dear friends, apologies for the delay. DN33 continues: CSCD < Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Sevens sutta 13 nilovg Dear friends, Walshe DN. 33.2.3(13) 'Seven fetters (sa"myojanaani): complaisance (anunaya), resentment, views, doubt, pride, lust for living, blindness. (Satta sa"myojanaani - anunaya sa"myojanana.m [kaama sa"myojanana.m], pa.tigha sa"myojanana.m, di.t.thi sa"myojanana.m, vicikicchaa sa"myojanana.m, maana sa"myojanana.m, bhavaraaga sa"myojanana.m, avijjaa sa"myojanana.m.) -------- N: The commentary states that the meaning is clear. For this we have to return to the Fives, suttas 7 and 8, where we find the classification of five lower fetters and five higher fetters. There are different ways of classifying the fetters. In the Dhammasangani (1113)and in the Book of Analysis, Vibha"nga, Chapter 17, 969, we find the following classification of ten fetters : sensuous desire (kaama-raaga) ill-will (vyaapaada) conceit (maana) wrong view (di.t.thi) doubt (vicikicchaa) clinging to rules and rituals (siilabbata-paraamaasa) clinging to rebirth (bhava-raaga) envy (issa) stinginess (macchariya) ignorance (avijjaa) In the classifications of the fetters as given above, di.t.thi has been classified under two aspects: wrong view and wrong practice (clinging to rules and rituals). The classification into five lower fetters and five higher fetters is as follows: DN 33.2.1(7) 'Five lower fetters: personality-belief (sakkaaya- di.t.thi), doubt, attachment to rite and ritual (siilabbata- paraamaasa), sensuality, ill-will. DN 33.2.1(8) 'Five higher fetters: craving for the world of form (ruupa-raaga, lust for rebirth in rupa-brahma planes), craving for the formless world (aruupa-raaga, lust for rebirth in arupa-brahma planes), conceit (maana), restlessness (uddhacca), ignorance. [iii 235] The five lower fetters (orambhagiya-sa"myojana) tie beings to the sensuous planes and the five higher fetters (uddhambhagiya- sa"myojana) tie beings to the higher planes, the rupa-brahma planes and the arupa-brahma planes. In this classification wrong view has been classified as twofold: under the aspect of personality belief and wrong practice. Clinging has been classified as threefold: as sensuous desire, as clinging to rebirth which is the result of ruupa-jhaana and as clinging to rebirth which is the result of aruupa-jhaana. Envy and stinginess do not occur in this classification. The sa"myojanas "fetter" khandhas (in this life) to khandhas (of the next), or kamma to its fruit ( So long as there is the performing of kamma there will be vipaaka and thus life goes on.), or beings to suffering... (Visuddhimagga XXII, 48). Through the fetters we are tied to the cycle of birth and death (2 Atthasalini (I, Book 1, Part 1, Chapter II, 48). We are reminded of the danger of being in the cycle, of the many kinds of longings, aspirations and wishes bound up with rebirth. We have to face endless disappointments, frustrations, worries and sufferings. Most of our problems are caused by clinging to the wrong view of self. The sotaapanna has eradicated all forms of wrong view and wrong practice, but he still has to cope with sensuous clinging and aversion. Through the development of understanding of all realities that appear the following stages of enlightenment can be attained and at the stage of the arahat complete freedom has been reached. ----------- Nina. #114644 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again farrellkevin80 Hi Lukas, L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigaret. K: That's a "problem" in a way. But it is more a symptom than it is the cause of any problem itself. The problem is the _accumulated lobha, dosa, and moha. ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #114645 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:23 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 hantun1 Dear Nina, [Nina]: To be on the safe side I changed the text somewhat but not the contents: ---------- [Nina]: This I find after the simile of the young tree (Pa.tisambhidhamagga II, 217 f.): In the future there is no more oportunity for their arising. In that sense one can say: he abandons future defilements. ---------- [Han]: Thank you very much for your explanations and clarifications. It is very clear now. I also thank you very much for taking the trouble of presenting this very valuable treatise. I understand your presentation better than the actual Yamaka which is very difficult for me. Nina, I will have to curtail my computer work. During my last check-up for Age-Related Macular Degeneration, the Ophthalmologist found that I now have decreased vision due to the opacification (cloudiness) on the posterior capsule of the lens of both of my eyes. They call it Posterior Capsule Opacification (PCO) which is the most common complication of the cataract surgery (which I had done in 2004). The treatment for this is Laser posterior capsulotomy, which is a simple procedure that can be done as out-patient. But my Ophthalmologist is retiring within a few days. I will have to look for another Ophthalmologist whom I like. Meanwhile, I will have to curtail my computer work. This is just for your information, please. Respectfully, Han #114646 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:17 pm Subject: Re: Problems again kenhowardau Hi Lukas, ------ L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigaret. ------ KH: Whenever you think that is a problem, just be glad that you don't do something worse. Or, if you do something worse, just be glad you don't do something even worse than that. There is a sutta to that effect. It says when people throw verbal insults at an arahant the arahant is grateful to them for not throwing clods of mud. Or, if they throw clods of mud the arahant is grateful to them for not throwing stones . . . and so on. In other words, it doesn't matter. It makes no difference to right understanding. Ken H #114647 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:22 pm Subject: Awareness (Sati) bhikkhu5 Friends: Awareness (Sati) is a Link to Enlightenment! The Awareness Link to Awakening (sati-sambojjhanga) is basically the same mental property (sati-cetasika), which inherently is included in: The Four Foundations of Awareness (satipatthâna) The Ability of Awareness (satindriya) The Power of Awareness (satibala) The Right Awareness Path Factor (sammâ-sati-magganga) Trained, developed and refined in a degree that gradually enlightens! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (âsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Awareness Link to Awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in relinquishment, neither can any fermentation, nor any fever, nor any vexation ever arise in him. MN 2 [i 11] The Ability of Awareness is to anchor attention on any chosen object and when this ability is unshakable & well fixed, it is the Power of Awareness! Awareness is a Foundation (patthana), when well established (upatthana) continually - without distractions interrupting - on these four objects : 1: Body as mere form: Just a group of foul and fragile organs... 2: Feeling as a mere reactive response assigned to any contact... 3: Mind as only a changing set of habitual mentalities and moods... 4: Phenomena simply as appearances of momentary mental states... Not lasting, but transient! Not pleasure, but pain! Not self, but impersonal! Neither neglecting, nor forgetting that these universal characteristics are relevant and true for absolutely all aspects of these four objects, the false and distorted perception of beauty in what really is disgusting, of pleasure in what really is painful, of self in what really is selfless and impersonal, gradually fades away and the mental fermentations (âsava) of sensing, of views, of ignorance and of becoming are overcome by elimination. Further inspirations on this lucid and penetrating quality of Awareness: Training of Clear Comprehension (sampajanna): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm Training of the Four Foundations of Awareness (satipatthâna): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.hm What is Right and Noble Awareness? Answer and Details at: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #114648 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, The topic and question raised originally in the thread was about how wisdom accumulates. My answer is that, by hearing, considering and developing wisdom now, it accumulates by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). --- On Tue, 19/4/11, Ken O wrote: >>S: OK, read the Patthana under pakatupanissaya paccaya! Also, see under "accumualtions" in UP. (no texts with me). It doesn't matter what word we use for "accumulate".... .. >KO: nope there is no textual support for this, you have to provide the support or it is just base on one's intepretation. So far I did not come across text that citta accumulate. ... S: You mean that you respectfully disagree:-)) See the following from Nina's book on Conditions: http://wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/conditions/d/doc2908.html >Chapter 8 - Decisive Support-condition Part 2 Upanissaya-paccaya As we have seen, there are three kinds of decisive support-condition: decisive support of object, arammanupanissaya-paccaya, decisive support of proximity, anantarupanissaya-paccaya, and natural decisive support-condition, pakatupanissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third decisive support-condition, pakatupanissaya-paccaya, the commentary to the "Patthana" (the Pancappakaranatthakatha) explains the term "pakata" in pakatupanissaya. Pakata means done properly, done thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were "done thoroughly", often performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual. In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they cause to arise. <....> We read in the "Patthana" (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, Conditions Positive, §423,c, natural strong dependence): By the strong dependence of confidence... of precept (sila)... of learning... generosity... By the strong dependence of wisdom, (one) offers the offering, undertakes the precept, fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhana, develops insight, develops path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment. Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom, by strong dependence condition.< ..... S: Also read the following from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 9: ... The "Atthasalinii" states (I, Book I, Part I, Ch I, Triplets in the Maatikaa, 44) that akusala dhamma as well as kusala dhamma which are not of the eightfold Path are leading to accumulation, to continuation of the cycle of birth and death. We read about akusala and kusala which are not of the Path: ... "leading to accumulation" aacayagaamin) are "those states which go about severally, arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall." .... >KO: Kamma is the cetasikas that acccumulates, panna cannot accumulate, it could only be increase and develop further. Likewise for tendecies, they strengthen but not accumulate. I do not know how to explain the difference but I know there is a difference. There is a reason in the commentary why it was panna or craving or latency increase or strengthen while kamma accumulates. .... S: Sankhara khandha - all the cetasikas "form up" or accumulate along with cetana: From Vism. XIV,131: "Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating.57 What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87)." ------------------------------ "Note 57. ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). " S: At this moment as we read and consider, there are tendencies accumulating. Are they kusala or akusala? Metta Sarah ======= #114649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:56 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 nilovg Dear Han, I thank you for your most valuable contributions which greatly helped me to go deeper into the matter. It was a great pleasure working with you and I will miss it. Very enjoyable to do such a projet together. Lodewijk had something similar after his eye operation and it was not a great trouble, the second operation did not last long. But it was not macula which is more serious. I understand that meanwhile you have to be careful with your eyes. All the best, Nina. Op 20-apr-2011, om 0:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Meanwhile, I will have to curtail my computer work. This is just > for your information, please. #114650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:13 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8, revision. nilovg Dear Han and friends, Ch 4, no 8 revision. In the Points of Controversity, the Kathaavatthu and commentary, there are questions and answers with the purpose to eliminate the wrong view of the heretics such as the Uttaraapathakas who wrongly believed that the defilements to be eradicated by the magga-citta, namely the latent tendencies, were realities dependent on time [1]. They believed that the defilements that were past, future and present could be overcome. In the Kathaavatthu and commentary, there are questions and answers with the purpose to eliminate the wrong view of those who did not understand that when there is an appropriate condition the latent tendencies cause the arising of akusala citta (pariyutthaana kilesa). Some of the Andhakas and the Uttaraapathakas wronly believed that the latent tendencies that were dormant in the succession of cittas were not conjoined with citta, that they were ahetuka (without roots), indeterminate (avyaakata, in this case not akusala), and consequently without object [2]. In the Commentary to the Mahaaniddesa (to the Chapter of Eights, "The Purified") it is explained that the path-consciousness eradicates akusala dhammas which are latent tendencies that are there at that moment. This commentary deals with the question how the defilements that arise in the future can be eradicated. It is answered that the person who has strength can eradicate latent tendencies because these are there at the present. The commentary to the "Yamaka" refers to the "Path of Discrimination" which deals with the question whether a person eradicates only defilements that are present. It answers that a person can eradicate latent tendencies, defilements that are powerful, because these are there at present. From the explanations of the foregoing texts it has been clearly shown that the magga-citta eradicates latent tendencies that are akusala dhammas which are present at that moment. --------- Footnotes: 1. Subject to arising, presence and ceasing. 2. This means that when there is an appropriate condition the latent tendency causes the (relevant) defilement ( akusala cetasika) to arise and perform its function. Then it must accompany citta (citta- sampayutta), it must have an object, be accompanied by roots. It can only be akusala. Thus, the medium defilement, pariyutthaana kilesa, conditioned by the latent tendency arises together with akusala citta. ********** (the end of this Thai treatise). ********** (the end of the Thai treatise). #114651 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 2 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Mon, 11/4/11, Ken O wrote: >1.Pali dict: >"Samatha [fr. sam, cp. BSk. samatha] 1. calm, quietude of heart >passaddhi calm of h., serenity of mind" >As I wrote before: >>S: In CMA, under the 25 beautiful factors (sobhanacetasika) [Ch 11, >Compendium of Mental Factors], kaayapassaddhi and cittapassaddhi are >listed under the universal beautiful factors (sobhanasaadhaara.na) arising >with all kusala cittas (and kiriya cittas of the arahants). The Guide adds >this note: > >"Tranquillity (passaddhi): The twofold tranquility has the characteristic >of the quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and >consciousness, respectively. <....> ... KO: that is not the only definition of samatha, there are different meanings to samatha just like there are different meanings to words like samaya and the context it was used. .... S: Samatha always means calm. It's always kusala (you had mentioned the development can be kusala or akusala which is wrong). The development always refers to detachment, not attachment to sensuous objects. The latter is always accompanied by restlessness, the opposite. Kusala is always calm, but if there is no understanding of the distinction between kusala and akusala at this very moment and the characteristic of calm, samatha, it can never be developed. It's useless to discuss highly developed samatha and samadhi if there is no beginning of understanding of samatha now. That's why I asked you what samatha was, what dhamma it was. .... >http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm >In the Treatise of Perfections < .... S: This is not a different meaning of samatha. This is referring to the development of samatha, the development of calm. Now, if there is an understanding of kusala, of calm, of the danger of attachment to sensuous objects, there can be a growth of calm whilst (naturally) reflecting on death or metta or the Dhamma, for example. However, any development begins with understanding, not a "trying to have" kusala. .... >In the Visud, pg 605 XVIII 3. One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is serenity ,should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhanas ... S: No vehicle of any kind without the beginning of understanding now of when the citta is kusala, when it is akusala, without an understanding of the danger of attachment at this very moment:) You would like to just exchange texts and refs, but for me, the Dhamma is not book-study and memorization, but it's about the understanding of the citta at this very moment. This is why I always remind you (and everyone) to consider, to understand the present citta, the dhammas appearing right now. Metta Sarah ======= #114652 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 4 Ken O: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Thank you for all your helpful refs. Here are some simple definitions of terms which Jon wrote to someone before. It may be helpful for others: Samatha -- 'Calmness' or 'tranquillity'. An attribute of all kusala cittas, in the sense of being calm or tranquil from akusala. Samatha bhavana -- The development of certain kinds of kusala that are particularly conducive to calmness, accompanied by panna (wisdom), to the level of jhana. Ekagatta cetasika -- The cetasika (mental factor) that is 'concentration'. It concentrates the citta on its object. Is a 'universal' (i.e., arises with every citta) and so may be kusala or akusala depending on the citta it accompanies Passaddhi -- The cetasika (mental factor) that is calmness or tranquillity It arises with each moment of kusala citta. Vitakka -- The cetasika that that strikes or hits upon the object of the citta. In samatha bhavana, it causes/allows the citta to take the same object on successive moments. Samadhi -- 'Concentration'. A term whose meaning rather depends on the context. Sometimes used as a synonym for ekagatta cetasika, sometimes for samatha/samatha bhavana (and sometimes something else). --- On Thu, 14/4/11, Ken O wrote: >KO: As I said, no where in the text said that development of panna is only possible when the object is a paramatha dhamma. Rather the text supported that panna can be developed through concepts as well. .... S: You keep repeating this same comment and I keep replying by asking you to quote where I (or anyone else) has said that "development of panna is only possible when the object is a paramattha dhamma." I've never said it. I think you still misunderstand what we say. Panna has to arise for any development of samatha bhavana. Concepts are the objects. In the development of the path, we always say there has to be firmly established pariyatti (with panna) in order for patipatti. When it is pariyatti, again concepts are the object. However, when the Buddha and his disciples refer to patipatti, it has to be the direct understanding of paramattha dhammas. Otherwise, there's no Path being developed. .... >Please do quote from the ancient texts and not from AS or other modern teachers as I want to go back to the source and not base on individual intepretation ... S: :-) As you know, the Dhamma is not in any text. Many bhikkhus have memorised the entire Tipitaka, but not developed any understanding of the paramattha dhammas. Textual study can even become an academic pursuit and an avoidance of the direct understanding of what appears now. So, there is seeing now, there is visible object now. Is there any understanding now? Metta Sarah ======= #114653 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, (Vince & all), --- On Mon, 11/4/11, Ken O wrote: >>S: Here, I'm referring to paramattha dhammas. See the intro to Abh. Sangaha >where it is explained that these are cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. >That's all there is in reality. Anything else is a concept. >.... >KO: I am refering to dhamma as a whole because dhamma is not restricted to just nama and rupa. the scriptures are part of dhamma and concepts are in the scriptures. ... S: That's fine, but as I recall, they were my comments you were questioning:). .... >>KO: Oh, now can be a concepts that rise with panna. >... >S: Sorry, but no, concepts never rise. They don't exist. They are just >experienced by cittas which think. If the thinking is wise thinking, they may be >accompanied by panna. Still, the concepts don't rise, don't fall away, don't >have the characteristics of anicca or dukkha. .... >KO: which text said that panna only arise when the characteristics of anicca or dukkha. Or this penetration of the characteristics only arise in the the delimiting of nama and rupa stage. In another way, does that mean panna cannot arise with concept that never arise, then how do one learn Buddhism in the old days since listening is always conceptuals as words are conceptuals. .... S: Pls read my comments more carefully:) I haven't said or suggested any of the things you mention. .... K:> If you said concepts never exist, then how about father, mother, Buddha, are you saying they dont exist? Since they don't exist, why is there a weighty kamma for killing father and mother and causing Buddha to bleed. It should not have happen right? .... S: As Ken H quoted recently from the Yamaka Sutta: "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." The weighty kamma is because of the intensity of the hatred whilst performing such an act. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view which thinks our deeds can kill other beings. In fact it is only kamma that can condition the cuti citta, the last moment of life. It's a vipaka citta, like patisandhi (the birth citta) and all the bhavanga cittas. The more we understand life as one moment of citta, the less will we live under the delusion that we live among people, wanting to harm and kill. In fact, there's never anyone at all, just the arising of kusala and akusala cittas which depend on conditions. ... >>K: also is your now are the direct understanding of nama and rupa or just >>nimitta. >... >S: Only nibbana doesn't have nimitta. For all other dhammas, in particular for all namas, it has to be the nimitta of that dhamma which is experienced. It is the characteristic of the reality which is known, so it doesn't make any difference that it's the nimitta. ... >KO: Yes because there is a difference in nimitta, the nimitta of direct understanding is different from nimitta of inferential understanding. If we use what you have said then all our practise should then be direct understanding of dhamma, then how come it is not, it is because of the different levels of nimittas. .... S: No, it's not the direct understanding of dhammas, because of the accumulated ignorance, the darkness we live in, imagining there to be a world of people and things, when in truth, there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away now. Thanks for all the discussions. We leave for Australia on Friday for two weeks, so there are likely to be some delays (as usual!) in my further replies. Metta Sarah ======= #114654 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Name suggestion for a baby girl! sarahprocter... Hi Nitesh, --- On Tue, 12/4/11, kanchuu2003 wrote: >Congratulations to all of us! Blessed with a baby girl! >Kindly suggest me some names! .... S: Congratulations! May she grow wise and all that's good! Thx for sharing. Names: How about Panna, Metta or Samatha? Or I have a friend called Dana - that's nice, even though she gives it a very American and non-Pali pronunciation! Let us know what you decide and the reasons. Metta Sarah ====== #114655 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8, revision. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the Revision of Ch 4, no 8. It is very clear and very neat. I find Kathaavatthu very interesting. I have a Burmese book mentioning the points very briefly. I will ask from my friends in Rangoon, the Burmese translation of Kathaavatthu. As of now, I know only the very brief points. The points you have mentioned are in the following Pali texts. 554. Anusayaa anaaramma.naati? Does anusaya have no object? 605. Anusayaa abyaakataati? Is anusaya abyaakataa? 607. Anusayaa ahetukaati? Is anusaya without roots? 609. Anusayaa cittavippayuttaati? Is anusaya not conjoined with citta? When I get the book, I will study in more detail. I thank you very much for introducing the Kathaavatthu to me. Respectfully, Han #114656 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:18 am Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Hi Kevin > L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigaret. > > K: That's a "problem" in a way. But it is more a symptom than it is the cause > of any problem itself. The problem is the _accumulated lobha, dosa, and moha. L: But when there is no siila according to 5th percept, when drinkin a bear or smoking a cigaret then with such a trash in a head, there is no awareness. No awareness due to drinking alcohol. Best wishes Lukas #114657 From: "James" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, philip Coristine wrote: > > > Hi James. > > How's life, always nice to come across your name. James: Life is fine. Thanks for asking! Hope you are doing well in Japan even with all of the recent disasters. > The idea that virtue is not to be understood in terms of action of body speech and mind but rather as states of mind and that a person of perfect virtue can still do bad things....James, that can't be right! Where does that idea come from? James: It comes from the definition of "virtue". As defined by dictionary.com "virtue...a good or admirable quality or property." Virtue doesn't always translate into actions, it is about the quality of a person. A person of good virtue can still make mistakes because the mind is still not free of defilements. All of the descriptions for a sotapanna in the suttas don't mention anything about actions or vinaya, they only mention the qualities of the sotapanna. Sila is behaviour of body speech and mind and if we behave badly we do not have perfected virtue, no way! It would be foolish to kick ourselves over transgression but if there is transgression any notion of perfected sila very obviously goes out the window as far as I can see. > James: Well, I disagree. I guess we are operating under different definitions of "virtue". > > Metta, > Phil Metta, James #114658 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:47 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind words and best wishes. I have macula degeneration as well. So I cannot yet tell how much the vision will improve after the laser surgery. I can only hope for the best. Yes, I will be careful with my eyes. Respectfully, Han --- On Wed, 4/20/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Han, I thank you for your most valuable contributions which greatly helped me to go deeper into the matter. It was a great pleasure working with you and I will miss it. Very enjoyable to do such a projet together. Lodewijk had something similar after his eye operation and it was not a great trouble, the second operation did not last long. But it was not macula which is more serious. I understand that meanwhile you have to be careful with your eyes. All the best, Nina. #114659 From: "James" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Vince, > > --- On Wed, 13/4/11, Vince wrote: > > >I have found these comments from Nanavira Thera in "Clearing the Path", p.278) > > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_screen-view_v1.pdf > > > these are very coincident which what I wrote you in this thread about the things a Sotapanna is unable to do: > .... > S: Yes, these have been posted before. I disagree with many of his writings and ideas. He went to lengths to explain his views were more correct than those found in the texts, I think to justify his (imo false) belief that he was a sotapanna. James: This is a misrepresentation of Nanavira. He wrote Clearing the Path prior to believing he had achieved the state of sotapanna. Such a belief can be very harmful because it can prevent one from hearing the true dhamma and led to the expounding of false dhamma. I think B.Bodhi wrote a good essay refuting all the points, but don't have the link handy. James: I really like B.Bodhi but his essay refuting Nanavira is a convoluted mess. It is obvious that B.Bodhi is more jealous of the attention/devotion that Nanavira gets rather than anything he specifically wrote. Believe it or not, unenlightened monks can be very jealous of each other. It may be in the files section of DSG now I think about it. Many people underestimate the great wisdom of a sotapanna - even of the stages of insight. > ... James: A sotapanna has "great wisdom"?? I think you use that adjective "great" too loosely. I don't think you'll be convinced, because, like Ven Nanavira, there is a strong wish for a sotapanna to be like us - full of good intentions, but capable under particular circumstances of very unwholesome kamma. James: "Very unwholesome kamma"?? Goodness, your hyperbole is quite strong about this subject! To me, this shows a lack of confidence in the Triple Gem. > James: To me it just shows a lack of confidence in incorrect commentaries. > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > Metta, James #114660 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:22 am Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Hi Ken H > ------ > L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigaret. > ------ > > KH: Whenever you think that is a problem, just be glad that you don't do something worse. Or, if you do something worse, just be glad you don't do something even worse than that. L: Yes, but the worst thing for me is drinking alcohol. Thus in such moment no protection. Every akusala may happen. Best. Lukas #114661 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > >. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view which thinks our deeds can kill other beings. === Dear Sarah When a sotapanna has sex is there thinking of a being? robert #114662 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/20/2011 3:10:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Ken O, The topic and question raised originally in the thread was about how wisdom accumulates. My answer is that, by hearing, considering and developing wisdom now, it accumulates by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). ==================================== My perspective is that wisdom (in the pa~n~na sense) is not a repository of knowledge that accumulates but a faculty/ability that "grows" in penetrative fuction and acuity; that is, if this beneficial process ("process" in the non-abhidhammic/ordinary sense) occurs, then future pa~n~na is "better" than prior. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:39 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8, revision. nilovg Dear Han, I find the Kathaavatthu difficult reading, who is speaking to whom, what is asked exactly. But I was also glad the Thai treatise was using it, so that I get more acquainted with it. When your eyes are better it would be a good idea to discuss some parts. That is the way to get more deeply into it. Any time when it is convenient to you. Nina. Op 20-apr-2011, om 13:39 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When I get the book, I will study in more detail. I thank you very > much for introducing the Kathaavatthu to me. #114664 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] present moment. Was:part 2 to Ken O nilovg Dear Sarah (and Ken H), Op 20-apr-2011, om 10:26 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > You would like to just exchange texts and refs, but for me, the > Dhamma is not book-study and memorization, but it's about the > understanding of the citta at this very moment. This is why I > always remind you (and everyone) to consider, to understand the > present citta, the dhammas appearing right now. ------ N: Very good, we can never be reminded enough. And I always appreciate Ken H's posts as well for the same reason. Nina. #114665 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:28 am Subject: Re: Problems again rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Lukas, > > ------ > L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigaret. > ------ > > KH: Whenever you think that is a problem, just be glad that you don't do something worse. Or, if you do something worse, just be glad you don't do something even worse than that. > > There is a sutta to that effect. It says when people throw verbal insults at an arahant the arahant is grateful to them for not throwing clods of mud. Or, if they throw clods of mud the arahant is grateful to them for not throwing stones . . . and so on. > > In other words, it doesn't matter. It makes no difference to right understanding. > > Ken H > Dear Ken I think in the sutta you cite the point was that the Bhikkhu would not have aversion to people doing bad things to him, while Lukas is talking about himself performing akusala. The sutta wasn't at all suggesting that one should be happy in performing only minor akusala. Just my take on the sutta. robert #114666 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:20 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8, revision. hantun1 Dear Nina, I will do that after my surgery, and when I get the Burmese book containing the complete text. I know it will be difficult, but we can try. Respectfully, Han --- On Wed, 4/20/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Han, I find the Kathaavatthu difficult reading, who is speaking to whom, what is asked exactly. But I was also glad the Thai treatise was using it, so that I get more acquainted with it. When your eyes are better it would be a good idea to discuss some parts. That is the way to get more deeply into it. Any time when it is convenient to you. Nina. #114667 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:00 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your kind words and best wishes. > I have macula degeneration as well. > So I cannot yet tell how much the vision will improve after the laser surgery. > I can only hope for the best. > Yes, I will be careful with my eyes. > > Respectfully, > Han If you are still reading at the moment, I just wanted to tell you how much I have also been enjoying this thread, all of your questions and observations, and the engaging exchange between you and Nina on this topic. I have also appreciated your posts on other topics which have given me a lot of good information and the benefit of your insight. I hope the surgery goes very well and you are able to return soon! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114668 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >>S: Sorry, but no, concepts never rise. They don't exist. They are just >>experienced by cittas which think. If the thinking is wise thinking, they may be >> >>>accompanied by panna. Still, the concepts don't rise, don't fall away, don't >>>have the characteristics of anicca or dukkha. >.... >>KO: which text said that panna only arise when the characteristics of anicca >>or dukkha. Or this penetration of the characteristics only arise in the the >>delimiting of nama and rupa stage. In another way, does that mean panna cannot >> >>arise with concept that never arise, then how do one learn Buddhism in the old >>days since listening is always conceptuals as words are conceptuals. >.... >S: Pls read my comments more carefully:) I haven't said or suggested any of the >things you mention. KO: I remember your stand is that panna only arise when the characteristics of the nama and rupa is known. I don't see this in any text that panna only arise with that. .... >K:> If you said concepts never exist, then how about father, mother, Buddha, are > >you saying they dont exist? Since they don't exist, why is there a weighty >kamma for killing father and mother and causing Buddha to bleed. It should not >have happen right? >.... >S: As Ken H quoted recently from the Yamaka Sutta: > >"In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in >the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." > >The weighty kamma is because of the intensity of the hatred whilst performing >such an act. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed >recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being > >because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view >which thinks our deeds can kill other beings. In fact it is only kamma that can >condition the cuti citta, the last moment of life. It's a vipaka citta, like >patisandhi (the birth citta) and all the bhavanga cittas. The more we understand > >life as one moment of citta, the less will we live under the delusion that we >live among people, wanting to harm and kill. In fact, there's never anyone at >all, just the arising of kusala and akusala cittas which depend on conditions. .. KO: your statements are not in line with the commentary and you did not answer my question, why is there a difference. If there is never being at all, why do Devadatta experiences suffering in Avici hell due to making a Buddha bleed or King Ajatasattu have to suffer in the boiling in the Hell of Copper Cauldrons for 60,000 years for killing of his father. Since it is nama and rupa, why should some kamma be more weighty then? Under right view there is such a statement in the suttas and the texts which I told Ken H, there is father, mother, noble ones and Buddha etc. Also are we talking about sotapanna right now or wordlings. It is impossible for sotapanna to do such thing precisely becuse he knows there is noble ones, father and mother and Buddha and also he would not change teacher to another sectarian. Also it is not necessary all objects of volitions are nama and rupa, please see the commentary of right view http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html <> Since harsh speech has only being as object, so does that mean a noble one cannot restraint themselves in harsh speech since the object is not nama and rupa. >... >>KO: Yes because there is a difference in nimitta, the nimitta of direct >understanding is different from nimitta of inferential understanding. If we use > >what you have said then all our practise should then be direct understanding of >dhamma, then how come it is not, it is because of the different levels of >nimittas. >.... >S: No, it's not the direct understanding of dhammas, because of the accumulated >ignorance, the darkness we live in, imagining there to be a world of people and >things, when in truth, there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away >now. > >Thanks for all the discussions. We leave for Australia on Friday for two weeks, >so there are likely to be some delays (as usual!) in my further replies. KO: If there are only namas and rupas, then there should be no father and mother, and no noble ones and no Buddha. Then should not be any difference in kamma Ken O #114669 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 2 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Sarah > >>"Tranquillity (passaddhi): The twofold tranquility has the characteristic >>>of the quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and >>>consciousness, respectively. <....> >... >KO: that is not the only definition of samatha, there are different meanings to > >samatha just like there are different meanings to words like samaya and the >context it was used. >.... >S: Samatha always means calm. It's always kusala (you had mentioned the >development can be kusala or akusala which is wrong). The development always >refers to detachment, not attachment to sensuous objects. The latter is always >accompanied by restlessness, the opposite. Kusala is always calm, but if there >is no understanding of the distinction between kusala and akusala at this very >moment and the characteristic of calm, samatha, it can never be developed. It's >useless to discuss highly developed samatha and samadhi if there is no beginning > >of understanding of samatha now. That's why I asked you what samatha was, what >dhamma it was. > KO: I did show you in the part 4 the meaning of samatha of samatha and passadhi. I repeat again the difference in samatha again right below the email << Kusala is always calm, but if thereis no understanding of the distinction between kusala and akusala at this very moment and the characteristic of calm, samatha, it can never be developed. It's >useless to discuss highly developed samatha and samadhi if there is no beginning > >of understanding of samatha now.>> KO: the development of samadhi is the distinction between kusala and akusala at the very moment - could you give me commentarian textual support on this. This is an interpretation by AS but this is not supported by the commentarian text. The development of samadhi is usually used as a basis of insight as show in the commentary of satipatthana sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html <> >.... >>http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm > >>In the Treatise of Perfections > ><unsatisfactoriness and defilement in sense pleasures, and on the benefit in >renouncing them. In detail, to those whose minds are disposed towards the >enlightenment of disciples, he gives a discourse establishing and purifying them > >(in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble qualities of >whichever among the following topics is appropriate: going for refuge, restraint > >by virtue, guarding the doors of the sense-faculties, moderation in eating, >application to wakefulness, the seven good qualities; application to serenity >(samatha) by practising meditation on one of the thirty-eight objects (of >serenity meditation); <...> >.... >S: This is not a different meaning of samatha. This is referring to the >development of samatha, the development of calm. Now, if there is an >understanding of kusala, of calm, of the danger of attachment to sensuous >objects, there can be a growth of calm whilst (naturally) reflecting on death or > >metta or the Dhamma, for example. However, any development begins with >understanding, not a "trying to have" kusala. >.... > >>In the Visud, pg 605 XVIII > >3. One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is serenity >,should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhanas >... >S: No vehicle of any kind without the beginning of understanding now of when the > >citta is kusala, when it is akusala, without an understanding of the danger of >attachment at this very moment:) > >You would like to just exchange texts and refs, but for me, the Dhamma is not >book-study and memorization, but it's about the understanding of the citta at >this very moment. This is why I always remind you (and everyone) to consider, to > >understand the present citta, the dhammas appearing right now. KO: Lets see what the commentary said about this pg 111, The Brahmajala Sutta, B Bodhi <> There are a few instances of memorisation as part of practise in the text. I have provided the clear definition of samantha and passaddhi to you and this references are the ancient texts, so the development of samantha is clearly not properly interpreted in accordance to the text. The interpretation of samantha and passaddhi is not correct by AS. Let me paste the text again on this below If one does not have a clear undestanding of the nature of dhamma, would one understanding be correct for the understanding of the present citta which is the dhammas that appear right now. Ken O Buddhist Psychological Ethics - pg 21 PTS Passadhi [41] - What on that occassion is repose of mental factors (kayapassadhi)? The serenity , the composure which there is one that occassion, the calming, the tranquility, the tranquility of the skandhas of feeling, preception and synergies - this is the serenity of mental factos that there then is [42] What on that occassion is sernity of mind (cittapassadhi)? The serenity, the composure which there is on that occasion the calming, the tranquility, the tranquility of the skandha of mind - this is the serenity of mind that there then is pg 23 [54] What on that occassion is quiet (samatho)? Anwser as for "self collectedness" $11 pg 11 [11] What on that occasion is self collectedness (cittass' ekaggata)? The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on the occassion is the absence of distraction , unperturb mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration , right concentration - this is self collectedness that there then is Dispeller of Delusion pg 107, interestingly there are two tranqualiity in the index, one for passadhi and the other for samantha 431 ..... By the term Right Concentration [are included] the three kinds of concentration begining with that possessed of applied and substained thought, concentration of consciousness, the concentration faculty, the concentration power, and the enlightenment factors of rapture, tranquility, concentration and equanimity. pg 145 570 But this path is both vision and conduct because of the inclusion of Right View and Thinking by vision and of the remaining by states by conduct. Also it is both tranquility (samatha) and insight becuse of the inclusion of those two by the vehicle of insight and of the remaining states by the vehicle of tranquility pg 347 (5) Tranquility (passadhi) 1355 But the arising of tranquility enlightenment factor comes about thus: "there is bodily tranquility, Bhikkhus and mental tranquility. Wise bringing to mind much practised tehrein is the nutriement for the arising of the unarisen tranquility enlightenement facor, or leads to growth, increase, development and perfection of the arisen tranquility enlightenment factor (S v 66) pg 345 (6) Concentration (samadhi) 1363 But the arising of the concentration enlightement factor comes about thus: "There is the sign of tranquility, bhikkhus, the sign of non-distraction. Wise bringng to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of te unarisen concentration enlightenment factor, or leads to the growth, incease, development and perfection of the arisen concentration enlightenment factor (S v 66) 1364 Herein the sign of tranquility is tranquility itself and the sign of non-distraction is in the sense of non-scatterdness Chapter 1 8 Visud. Samatha is translated as serenity 8. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind there described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should having become well established in virture, developed the serenity and insight that are described as concentration and understanding. This is how the Blessed One shows the path of purification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding. chapter 3, 17 Besides they should be understood as classed according to craving and ignorance, and according to whether one has had practise in serenity and insight. For if a man is overwhelmed by craving , his progress is difficult, If not, it is easy. And if he is overwhelmed by ignorance, his direct-knowledge is sluggish. If not, it is swift. And if he has had no practise in serenity, his progress is difficult. If he has, it is easy. And if he has no practise in insight. his direct knowledge is sluggish. If he has. it is swift. #114670 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening farrellkevin80 Hi all, Rob: When a sotapanna has sex is there thinking of a being? K: Absolutely! There is thinking of two beings, conceptually. There is no atta-ditthi, however. ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #114671 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >.. > >>KO: nope there is no textual support for this, you have to provide the support > >>or it is just base on one's intepretation. So far I did not come across text >>that citta accumulate. >... >S: You mean that you respectfully disagree:-)) KO: Nope, because I went to read the Atthasaalinii >See the following from Nina's book on Conditions: > >http://wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/conditions/d/doc2908.html > >>Chapter 8 - Decisive Support-condition Part 2 >Upanissaya-paccaya > >As we have seen, there are three kinds of decisive support-condition: decisive >support of object, arammanupanissaya-paccaya, decisive support of proximity, >anantarupanissaya-paccaya, and natural decisive support-condition, >pakatupanissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third decisive support-condition, >pakatupanissaya-paccaya, the commentary to the "Patthana" (the >Pancappakaranatthakatha) explains the term "pakata" in pakatupanissaya. Pakata >means done properly, done thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were "done >thoroughly", often performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become >habitual. In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the >arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas conditioned by >them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external conditions, such as temperature, >food, dwelling place and friends one associates with can be cogent reasons for >the dhammas which they cause to arise. ><....> >We read in the "Patthana" (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, >Conditions Positive, §423,c, natural strong dependence): >By the strong dependence of confidence... of precept (sila)... of learning... >generosity... By the strong dependence of wisdom, (one) offers the offering, >undertakes the precept, fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhana, develops > >insight, develops path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment. >Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to confidence, >precept, learning, generosity, wisdom, by strong dependence condition.< >..... KO: maybe Nina would like to explain where in the text that say citta accumulate >S: Also read the following from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 9: > > >... Or, inasmuch as this word citta is common to all states or classes of >citta, that which is known as mundane: kusala, akusala or mahaa-kiriya, is >termed citta, because it arranges itself in its own series or continuity by >way of javana (impulsion), in a process of citta. KO: this part is in the Athasaalini >In order to understand the aspect of citta as that which arranges itself in >its own series or continuity by way of javana, we should remember that >cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another very rapidly and that >wholesome and unwholesome qualities, cetasikas, which accompany citta and >fall away with the citta, are accumulated from one moment of citta to the >next moment of citta. KO: But this part is not, Athasaalini has never written that. I still have yet see Athasaalini said that citta accumulates >When citta arises and sees what appears through the eyes, hears sound >through the ears or experiences another sense object, it is usually not >known that such experiences are a characteristic of citta. We are more >likely to notice citta when it is unhappy, sad or annoyed, when it is happy >or pleased, when there is citta with anger or loving kindness, when there is the > >inclination to help someone else or to treat him with affection. Each citta >which arises and falls away very rapidly is succeeded by the next citta and >therefore the accumulations of the preceding citta are going on to the next >citta. No matter whether the citta is kusala citta or akusala citta, each citta >which arises and falls away conditions the next citta which immediately succeeds > >it. That is why inclinations accumulated in the preceding citta can go on to the > >next citta and so it continues all the time. >We can notice that everybody has different inclinations, a different >character, and this is so because all the different inclinations have been >accumulated in the citta, and these are going on from one citta to the next >citta. Some people are inclined to perform wholesome deeds and they are able to >do so because kusala citta which, in the past, arose and fell away, was >succeeded by the next citta which accumulated the inclination of >wholesomeness; thus, conditions have been created for the arising of kusala >citta later on. It is the same in the case of akusala citta, be it akusala >citta rooted in attachment, in aversion or in ignorance. When the akusala >citta falls away it conditions the arising of the succeeding citta and thus >the inclination to akusala accumulated in the preceding citta goes on to the >succeeding citta and in this way there are conditions for the arising of akusala > >citta in the future. <....> >... >The "Atthasalinii" states (I, Book I, Part I, Ch I, Triplets in the >Maatikaa, 44) that akusala dhamma as well as kusala dhamma which are not of >the eightfold Path are leading to accumulation, to continuation of the >cycle of birth and death. We read about akusala and kusala which are not of >the Path: >... "leading to accumulation" aacayagaamin) are "those states which go about >severally, arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a >bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall." >.... KO: lets see what the commentary actually written pg 57 and 58 of the Expositor the translation of Atthasalinii <> So you missed out the important first sentence that accumulattion means that which is accumulated by kamma an corruptions >>KO: Kamma is the cetasikas that acccumulates, panna cannot accumulate, it could > >>only be increase and develop further. Likewise for tendecies, they strengthen >>but not accumulate. I do not know how to explain the difference but I know >>there is a difference. There is a reason in the commentary why it was panna or >> >>craving or latency increase or strengthen while kamma accumulates. >.... >S: Sankhara khandha - all the cetasikas "form up" or accumulate along with >cetana: > >From Vism. XIV,131: > >"Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming >should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' >(par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of >forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating.57 What is >that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form >the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' >(S.iii,87)." >------------------------------ >"Note 57. ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the >characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to >have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations >aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). " KO: this is talking about accumulation where it leads to rebirth (that is the condition for the other aggregates), that is why they said volition is their basis. >S: At this moment as we read and consider, there are tendencies accumulating. >Are they kusala or akusala? KO: There are only negative tendecies pg 209 The Dispeller of Delusion II <<2292 In the description of svakara ("have good qualitites") because there is no inherent tendecy called "good" therefore "of good inherent tendency " (kalyaanusaya) is not said. The rest should be understood in the opposite way to that already stated>> so how are your good tendecies going to accumulate then Ken O #114672 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 20-apr-2011, om 20:16 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to > confidence, > >precept, learning, generosity, wisdom, by strong dependence > condition.< > >..... > > KO: maybe Nina would like to explain where in the text that say citta > accumulate ------ N: Cetasikas such as generosity or pa~n~naa never arise without kusala citta. They arise and then fall away, but the good inclinations are carried on from one citta to the next one. Nina. #114673 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Ken O wrote: >KO: I remember your stand is that panna only arise when the characteristics of the nama and rupa is known. I don't see this in any text that panna only arise with that. .... S: As I've said, you'll never find a place I've ever written or said this. It always depends on the context what level and kind of panna is being discussed. Metta Sarah ===== #114674 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Hi Kevin & Rob K, Good to see you both around! --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Kevin F wrote: From: Kevin F >Rob: When a sotapanna has sex is there thinking of a being? .... K: Absolutely! There is thinking of two beings, conceptually. There is no atta-ditthi, however. .... S: Thank you! I couldn't have said it better! No illusions of Atta, doesn't mean no thoughts of beings, otherwise the Buddha wouldn't have had any metta or karuna! Just namas and rupas rolling on! Metta Sarah ======= #114675 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Kevin & Rob K, > > Good to see you both around! > > --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Kevin F wrote: > > From: Kevin F > >Rob: When a sotapanna has sex is there thinking of a being? > .... > K: Absolutely! There is thinking of two beings, conceptually. There is no atta-ditthi, however. > .... > S: Thank you! I couldn't have said it better! > > No illusions of Atta, doesn't mean no thoughts of beings, otherwise the Buddha wouldn't have had any metta or karuna! Just namas and rupas rolling on! I would just like to sort out the difference between "being-view" and "self-view" in my own understanding. If one is thinking of the concepts of beings - which I interpret as perceiving them as such, rather than just perceiving momentary dhammas - there may not be a false view of "self" but the view of concept is there. It seems like an interesting line between being conceptualizing beings and having a false view of self. I wonder if you could say a bit more about this. In the ultimate view one would not have a concept of beings or a view of self - am I right? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114676 From: "colette" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:27 pm Subject: Illusion and Reality (Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro) ksheri3 Hi Ken H, Sorry for the delay. (Man, things are flying by and flying by me so fast that I have trouble keeping up with the reality that I'm dealing with). My major point was that THE RAINBOW BODY is an EXISTENT THING, It is nothing more than a representation of BUDDHA NATURE. We can find this same representation in Kabbalistic teachings where they proclaim that EVERYTHING has a piece of the "divine tree" within it from the shards of the exploded sephira i.e Blue Pancake. Buddha Nature is not readily acceptible in the Theravadan community. BUDDHA NATURE, however, is the crux, the volcrum, of the reality which desigates a differentiation between things. SORRY, I AM A MYSTIC, I AM A SHAMAN. SORRY, I CANNOT POSSIBLY GIVE CREDENCE TO THE EXACTITUDE OF MONETARISM. I DO NOT WORSHIP MONEY. I DO NOT WORSHIP THE CORPORATE DEITY. I DO NOT WORSHIP HEIRARCHY. With that said, it kind of puts me in the line of fire of any and all CORPORATE DICTATES. Can we at least admit that this is FACT. The condition uopon which I live? And in so doing this, agreeing that I exist in an environment, in a world which is hostile to my existence, then can't we acknowledge the fact that I LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE LIFE THAT THE STATUS QUO LIVES, THAT THE ARISTOCRACY LIVES, EVEN THAT THE PROLETARIATE LIVES, BECAUSE I LIVE BELOW THE POVERTY LINE? Come now, how can you get a better example or a better lab rat to test upon, than myself, simply because I DENOUNCE MONEY, I DENOUNCE THE MATERIALISM THAT INFATUATES SOCIETY? As a corporate deity and megalomaniac you can easily test your drugs and procedures on me, a worthless mass of atoms that has no value to the gtlorification and proliferation of the CORPORATE EMPIRE AND CORPORATE SUPREMECY? Who actually cares about my existence? I have lived below the poverty line since 1981. DO NOT TRY TO EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU COULD NOT NOR COULD NOT EXTEND ANY ASSISTANCE TO ME. The chance was there for you to give a human assistance and you chose to deny any and all assistance! PLEASE, do not think that your plastic diety of money will come to your aide and secure your freedom from GREED, from AVARICE, from ENVY, from VANITY, from.... Do we really have to get into the diasection of YOUR EMOTIONS through C.G.Jung's version and then through the Abhidharma's version? Naw, I'm still gonna work the Tibetan Buddhist procedures that I'm given, however, I'm gonna be willing to make changes. ------------------------------------------------ I am confounded by many problems today and many problems that I've neglected to deal with since I'm only given a limited time on the computer. I went off, above, and did not remain on focus to your o repsonse to me, as well as I could have and should have, however, damn, I'm gonna let it stand. I do not have any time to correct my errors in positions and want to get home to REALIZE what I have just experienced TODAY. If I may I'd like to come back to this and speak more concisely on this topic. This just shows how easily the mind can be sidetracked or distracted. I'm working on a piece through the application of PRANAYAMA THROUGH the VIPISANNA. toodles, colette > KH: Those conditioned dhammas are impressive things, butwhat about the *present* conditioned dhamma? Take visible object, for example: of all the infinite realities, this present visible object is the only one that could have arisen now. The rainbow body and manifested heat are impressive too, if and when they arise, but no more impressive than the present visible object. It is an absolute, complete and total miracle. > #114677 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:26 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 hantun1 Dear Robert E, Thank you very much for your kind concern about my health, and your best wishes for me getting well soon. You have always been kind to me. I will not rush for the laser surgery. As my Ophthalmologist is retiring, I will find another Ophthalmologist and consult with him/her about the right time to do the surgery. If I can still wait I will wait. It will depend on the evaluation of the eye condition done at that time. with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 4/20/11, Robert E wrote: From: Robert E Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 20, 2011, 11:00 PM  Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your kind words and best wishes. > I have macula degeneration as well. > So I cannot yet tell how much the vision will improve after the laser surgery. > I can only hope for the best. > Yes, I will be careful with my eyes. > > Respectfully, > Han If you are still reading at the moment, I just wanted to tell you how much I have also been enjoying this thread, all of your questions and observations, and the engaging exchange between you and Nina on this topic. I have also appreciated your posts on other topics which have given me a lot of good information and the benefit of your insight. I hope the surgery goes very well and you are able to return soon! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114678 From: Vince Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Dear James you wrote: > S: I think B.Bodhi wrote a good essay refuting all the points, but don't have > the link handy. > James: I really like B.Bodhi but his essay refuting Nanavira is a convoluted > mess. I have found a text titled "A Critical Examination of Nanaviira Thera's "A Note on Paticcasamuppaada" - Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://xrl.in/8utu I'm reading this text although until now I cannot find some reference to sila and sotapanna. Please, Can you confirm this is the essay you talk about? thanks in advance, Vince, #114679 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:25 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Robert E, > > Thank you very much for your kind concern about my health, and your best wishes for me getting well soon. You have always been kind to me. > > I will not rush for the laser surgery. > As my Ophthalmologist is retiring, I will find another Ophthalmologist and consult with him/her about the right time to do the surgery. If I can still wait I will wait. It will depend on the evaluation of the eye condition done at that time. > > with metta and respect, > Han Well I hope all goes well, and I hope you will be able to participate on dsg to the extent you are able in the meantime. My father is 91 and a few years ago he had both of his eye lenses completely replaced by plastic substitutes because of cataracts. After the operation he admitted that for several years he had been seeing through "clouds" in his vision and the new plastic replacements allowed him to see much more clearly. It is ironic that he put up with this for so long because he is an artist, but he doesn't let things bother him too much, and he managed to continue his work. But the new "eyes" are much much better and they have been doing well now for several years. It's amazing what can be done now. After the operation he was given a special card certifying that parts of his eyes are artificial. He joked afterwards that he was the "bionic man." My wife also had lasik surgery for her eyes, and it improved her vision greatly. Before that she was legally blind without her glasses and now she can do most things without glasses. In any case, whenever you decide to do the surgery, I know it will be much more precise than even a few years ago. That kind of surgery is improving all the time, and I wish you good success. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114680 From: "James" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna buddhatrue Hi Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Dear James > > you wrote: > > > S: I think B.Bodhi wrote a good essay refuting all the points, but don't have > > the link handy. > > James: I really like B.Bodhi but his essay refuting Nanavira is a convoluted > > mess. > > I have found a text titled "A Critical Examination of Nanaviira Thera's "A Note > on Paticcasamuppaada" - Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://xrl.in/8utu > I'm reading this text although until now I cannot find some reference to sila > and sotapanna. > > Please, Can you confirm this is the essay you talk about? > Yes, that is the exact one I spoke about. Good luck reading it! :-) All Nanavira said is that DO could be viewed as applying to one lifetime. B.Bodhi argues that DO is only supposed to apply to three lifetimes. (However, my view, is that DO could apply to both one lifetime and three lifetimes, it is multidimensional). Metta, James #114681 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:30 pm Subject: Video conferencing farrellkevin80 Hi all! I am not very keen in these technologies myself but I was wondering if there is any inexpensive way that we could video conference. These constant messages back and forth are good for learning but it just isn't the same as one on one discussion, or group discussions. Now, video conferencing would not be the same as live, personal discussions either, but it wouldn't be too far off either. So is anyone familiar with these technologies enough to talk about the possibility? Perhaps we could have live group discussions weekly, bi-weekly, or even daily. Being that we consist of members from all around this small globe, timing could be an issue, but I'm sure we could find a reasonable time of day where most people could participate. We could use our threads here as discussion points during the conferences, at those times. So if anyone is interested please provide some feedback. Maybe we could get something off the ground. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #114682 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:34 pm Subject: virtue of Sotapanna truth_aerator Hello Phil, all, >P: But at what point does one say "virtue is perfected?" This is very interesting question. Most likely it deals with 5 precepts or at least it deals with inability to commit 5 heineous crimes. In one sutta it says this: "Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, " http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/048-kosambiya-\ sutta-e1.html And regarding inability to do 5 heineous actions and going to another teacher: "ßânanda, the bhikkhu knows, it is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as permanent. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any determination as permanent. It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as pleasant. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any determination as pleasant. It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any thought as his. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any thought as his. It is impossible, that one come to right view should deprive the life of his mother. It is possible that an ordinary person should deprive the life of his mother. It is impossible, that one come to right view should deprive the life of his father. It is possible that an ordinary person should deprive the life of his father. It is impossible, that one come to right view, should cause hurt to the body of the Thus Gone One with a defiled mind. It is possible that an ordinary person should cause hurt to the body of the Thus Gone One, with a defiled mind. It is impossible that one come to right view should cause a breach in the Community. It is possible that an ordinary person should cause a breach in the Community. It is impossible that one come to right view should go to another Teacher. It is possible that an ordinary person should go to another Teacher." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/115-bahudhatuk\ a-e.html With metta, Alex #114683 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:37 pm Subject: Re: Video conferencing truth_aerator Hello Kevin, all, There is skype program that allows video conferencing. But you need to have a camera attached to computer. http://www.skype.com/intl/en-us/get-skype/on-your-computer/windows/ But it is only 1 on 1 conferences for free version. With best wishes, Alex #114684 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:47 pm Subject: Re: A Sotapanna epsteinrob Hi All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Dear James > > you wrote: > > > S: I think B.Bodhi wrote a good essay refuting all the points, but don't have > > the link handy. > > James: I really like B.Bodhi but his essay refuting Nanavira is a convoluted > > mess. > > I have found a text titled "A Critical Examination of Nanaviira Thera's "A Note > on Paticcasamuppaada" - Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://xrl.in/8utu > I'm reading this text although until now I cannot find some reference to sila > and sotapanna. > > Please, Can you confirm this is the essay you talk about? Here is Nanavira's original "Note:" http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view& id=34&Itemid=62 Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114685 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:48 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna philofillet Hi James >>>James: It comes from the definition of "virtue". As defined by dictionary.com "virtue...a good or admirable quality or property." Virtue doesn't always translate into actions, it is about the quality of a person. A person of good virtue can still make mistakes because the mind is still not free of defilements. All of the descriptions for a sotapanna in the suttas don't mention anything about actions or vinaya, they only mention the qualities of the sotapanna. Sila is behaviour of body speech and mind and if we behave badly we do not have perfected virtue, no way! It would be foolish to kick ourselves over transgression but if there is transgression any notion of perfected sila very obviously goes out the window as far as I can see. > James: Well, I disagree. I guess we are operating under different definitions of "virtue". Ph: Yes, I guess we'll have to disagree. I really think the Buddha's very detailed definition of virtue (for example, the precepts and the 10 akusala kamma patha) is more important than the dictionary defintion. We are followers of the Buddha, not Webster etc. As for the sotapanna, honestly, that is not of concern to me except occasionally when studying the theory of what the noble ones have and haven't transcended. I am really only interested in what I do by body, speech and mind, those actions are all that interest me about sila. But good to hear other perspectives! Metta, Phil #114686 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:49 pm Subject: Re: Video conferencing epsteinrob Hi Kevin and All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Hi all! > > I am not very keen in these technologies myself but I was wondering if there is > any inexpensive way that we could video conference. These constant messages > back and forth are good for learning but it just isn't the same as one on one > discussion, or group discussions. Now, video conferencing would not be the same > as live, personal discussions either, but it wouldn't be too far off either. So > is anyone familiar with these technologies enough to talk about the > possibility? Perhaps we could have live group discussions weekly, bi-weekly, or > even daily. Being that we consist of members from all around this small globe, > timing could be an issue, but I'm sure we could find a reasonable time of day > where most people could participate. We could use our threads here as > discussion points during the conferences, at those times. > > > So if anyone is interested please provide some feedback. Maybe we could get > something off the ground. I would enjoy participating when I was able. I guess folks could join in when their schedule allowed. Since most of these technologies are free, it would not hurt to hold a regular meeting even if sometimes there were just a few people. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114687 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Video conferencing farrellkevin80 Hey Alex, Thanks for the info. One on one would be great, but I would really like to get group involvement! Thanks a lot for the info though! Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ From: truth_aerator To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 10:37:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Video conferencing Hello Kevin, all, There is skype program that allows video conferencing. But you need to have a camera attached to computer. http://www.skype.com/intl/en-us/get-skype/on-your-computer/windows/ But it is only 1 on 1 conferences for free version. With best wishes, Alex #114688 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Video conferencing farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, Robert E: I would enjoy participating when I was able. I guess folks could join in when their schedule allowed. Since most of these technologies are free, it would not hurt to hold a regular meeting even if sometimes there were just a few people. Kevin: I'm glad you are interested Robert! Let's see if we can get a few more responses and if there is a large interest maybe we can try to get something off the ground. I'd be interested in group moderator opinions and feedback as well, please. All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #114689 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:04 pm Subject: Re: Problems again kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ---- <. . . > > RK: I think in the sutta you cite the point was that the Bhikkhu would not have aversion to people doing bad things to him, while Lukas is talking about himself performing akusala. > The sutta wasn't at all suggesting that one should be happy in performing only minor akusala. Just my take on the sutta. ---- As I see it, Lukas was was not doing anything wrong at the time of writing. He was feeling bad about having an addiction. So it was never a question of being happy or unhappy in performing akusala. The sutta says that a monk who is being pelted with mud can, instead of feeling bad about it, be thankful he is not being pelted with stones. Similarly Lucas, who is afflicted with an addiction, can be thankful he is not being afflicted with a worse addiction. Ken H #114690 From: "philip" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:34 pm Subject: Re: virtue of Sotapanna philofillet Hi Alex Thanks for the below. There is quite a gap between breaking the precepts and commiting the heinous crimes. I am comfortable with understanding perfected virtue as not breaking the precepts, and it makes it clear that I am of course miles away from that. I think it is in the reflex transgressions where we really get at perfected virtue. It is relatively easy to abstain from drinking alchol or commiting sexual misconduct because there is planning involved. But if a mosquito lands on our face in the middle of the night, for example, that is when one really finds out that one's virtue hasn't been perfected, probably. I also think the 10 kamma patha are a more complete indicator of virtue. For example, harsh speech is not included in the precepts, but it is included in the kamma patha. When there is abstention from responding to harsh speech with harsh speech, that is obviously another example of the reflex virue I write about above. Much more perfect than abstaining from lying, for example, which usually involves time to think before transgressing or not.... I think the noble ones have had that incredible reflex virue developed, so that they do not lash out and kill the mosquito, they do not respond to a spit in the face with anger, etc. But that is just my opinion, really doesn't matter. What matters is sila now, not talking or writing about sila now. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Phil, all, > > >P: But at what point does one say "virtue is perfected?" > > This is very interesting question. Most likely it deals with 5 precepts or at least it deals with inability to commit 5 heineous crimes. In one sutta it says this: > > > "Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, " > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/048-kosambiya-\ sutta-e1.html > > > And regarding inability to do 5 heineous actions and going to another teacher: > > "ßânanda, the bhikkhu knows, it is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as permanent. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any determination as permanent. It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as pleasant. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any determination as pleasant. It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any thought as his. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any thought as his. It is impossible, that one come to right view should deprive the life of his mother. It is possible that an ordinary person should deprive the life of his mother. It is impossible, that one come to right view should deprive the life of his father. It is possible that an ordinary person should deprive the life of his father. It is impossible, that one come to right view, should cause hurt to the body of the Thus Gone One with a defiled mind. It is possible that an ordinary person should cause hurt to the body of the Thus Gone One, with a defiled mind. It is impossible that one come to right view should cause a breach in the Community. It is possible that an ordinary person should cause a breach in the Community. It is impossible that one come to right view should go to another Teacher. It is possible that an ordinary person should go to another Teacher." > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/115-bahudhatuk\ a-e.html > > > With metta, > > Alex > #114691 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Problems again rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Hi Robert K, > > ---- > <. . . > > > RK: I think in the sutta you cite the point was that the Bhikkhu would not have aversion to people doing bad things to him, while Lukas is talking about himself performing akusala. > > The sutta wasn't at all suggesting that one should be happy in performing only minor akusala. Just my take on the sutta. > ---- > > As I see it, Lukas was was not doing anything wrong at the time of writing. He was feeling bad about having an addiction. So it was never a question of being happy or unhappy in performing akusala. > > The sutta says that a monk who is being pelted with mud can, instead of feeling bad about it, be thankful he is not being pelted with stones. Similarly Lucas, who is afflicted with an addiction, can be thankful he is not being afflicted with a worse addiction. > > Ken H > Dear Ken You are correct , that must have been the point of the sutta-I have misunderstood it all these years until now. Advice to Venerable Punna `Venerable sir, it is good, if I'm advised in short, so that I could abide alone and secluded, zealous to dispel diligently.' `Venerable sir, now that I'm advised in short, I will abide in the Sunaparanta state.' `Punna, the people of Sunaparanta are rough, if they scold and abuse you, what will you do?' `Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta scold and abuse me. It will occur to me, indeed the people of Sunaparanta are good, they do not hurt me with their hands.' ``Punna, if the people of Sunaparanta put an end to your life with a sharp weapon, what will you do?' `Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta would put an end to my life, it will occur to me thus. There are disciples of the Blessed One, who loathing the body and life search for an assassin. Here I have got an assassin even without a search." `Good! Punna, it is possible for you to abide in Sunaparanta endowed with that appeasement in the Teaching. You may do the fit now.' "" #114692 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Kevin & Rob K, > > Good to see you both around! > > --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Kevin F wrote: > > From: Kevin F > >Rob: When a sotapanna has sex is there thinking of a being? > .... > K: Absolutely! There is thinking of two beings, conceptually. There is no atta-ditthi, however. > .... > S: Thank you! I couldn't have said it better! > > No illusions of Atta, doesn't mean no thoughts of beings, otherwise the Buddha wouldn't have had any metta or karuna! Just namas and rupas rolling on! > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= dear sarah and Kevin Actually this is not my first time to hear what you said above, I have heard of anatta and attaditthi. Just wondering though when sarah wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view which .>thinks our deeds can kill other beings. _____ > Why will the sotapanna never kill because he has "no idea of killing a being" but at the same time have sex or get angry with a being. We all agreed that he thinks of beings right? You seem to be saying he does not have wrong view when lusting and enjoying sex - and this is surely focused on a being- and he has no wrong view when being angry with someone- this I of course agree with. How could a sotapanna ever have wrong view when it has been eradicated. What I dont follow is how you directly connect his lack of murder instinct to his eradication of wrongview. robert #114693 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:39 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 hantun1 Dear Robert E, Thank you very much, Robert. It is very encouraging to know about the successful eye operations of your father and your wife. It gives me the strength. with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 4/21/11, Robert E wrote: Well I hope all goes well, and I hope you will be able to participate on dsg to the extent you are able in the meantime. #114694 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:55 pm Subject: Noting the Posture! bhikkhu5 Friends: Awareness of the Body as mere Postures! The Blessed Buddha said regarding noting The Four Postures: Again, friends, when walking, a Bhikkhu notes and understands: This body is walking! When standing, he notes and understands: This body is standing! When sitting, he notes and understands: This body is sitting! When lying down, he notes and understands: This body is lying down or he notes and understands the attitude, position and location of whatever way the body frame is positioned. In this way he lives considering the body as internal, as external, as something both internal and external. And he lives therefore dwelling independent, freed, not clinging to anything in this world... He knows and understands that it is no real 'person', no real 'being', not an 'I', 'me' or 'ego' that goes, sits, stands and lies down, but that it is only the 5 clusters of clinging and the 4 great elements of solidity, fluidity, heat and motion, which when arising and ceasing in adjacent locations appears to be going, sitting, standing, and lying down, yet all these elements naturally & instantly cease right wherever they arised! Comment: When experiencing the body as a remote, alien, and ownerless form, an accumulated material circumstance, neither I-me-mine, nor what 'I am', nor what belongs to me, nor as safe, lasting, nor as something that can be kept, then there is fearlessness of death, since this fear of death is closely related to the fear of loosing the current body... This fearlessness settles mind into an imperturbable peacefulness! <....> Source Text: Majjhima Nikâya 119: Kayagata-Sati Sutta http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Meditation_On_the_Body_Kayagata-Sati.ht m Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #114695 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:57 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8 epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Robert E, > > Thank you very much, Robert. > It is very encouraging to know about the successful eye operations of your father and your wife. > It gives me the strength. > > with metta and respect, > Han I am very glad! Be well. Best Regards, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114696 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, Robert: Why will the sotapanna never kill because he has "no idea of killing a being" but at the same time have sex or get angry with a being. We all agreed that he thinks of beings right? You seem to be saying he does not have wrong view when lusting and enjoying sex - and this is surely focused on a being- and he has no wrong view when being angry with someone- this I of course agree with. How could a sotapanna ever have wrong view when it has been eradicated. What I dont follow is how you directly connect his lack of murder instinct to his eradication of wrongview. robert Kevin: Hi Robert. I don't connect his lack of murder instinct with his lack of atta-ditthi. Well, in a way I do. Let me explain. Second thought, it's too difficult to explain but I will try anyway (the difficulty is because of my lack of the prized ability to get ones points across and be able to teach others). Naturally because of defilements such as lobha and dosa, etc. a person, even one missing self-view, can get upset at some harsh words directed towards him or her. For example, this person without self-view still has conceit, and still has dosa, so he may get upset at strong words directed towards him, even though he cannot pin down anything he can take for "self". This, of course, happens naturally. However, something as strong as killing another takes a strong degree of dosa. Due to the persons level of perfections who has removed the self-view, I don't think those accumulations are that strong. I don't think it can happen until there are enough perfections developed, and with that level of development, I can see anger, strong words, etc., but not prizing ones own life over anothers, which would occur in the thought process if one killed. I don't see killing happening. I just don't. I realize my thoughts probably aren't too clear. However, for your information and the groups, I don't feel it is impossible for a sotapanna to break any of the "precepts" (please note the double neg.). For example, if a person has a history of drinking, then even after "they" remove self-view I don't see lobha being decreased enough to actually _prevent_ them from ever drinking again. I just don't see that at all. The same goes for the other ones. After all, I only see that happening at the stage of Anagami ( due to the effect on lobha). I have not seen anywhere in any of the baskets where it is stated otherwise. I have seen it explicitly stated by the Buddha, as recorded in the Suttas, that a Non-returner will not break the Five Precepts, but never this about a sotapanna. The only thing I see is that a sotapanna has "virtues dear to the wise" or "praised by the wise", which may fall in line with their inability to commit any of the five heinous crimes (due to their severity; one with accumulations to attain cannot have lobha and dosa -strong- enough to commit those things because of their necessary level of Perfections). In all honesty, I think that debators and Commentators faced a problem during their time in India - one which directly effected their ability to preserve the Dhamma - and it mainly has to do with Indian culture and the rules of debate. People do not realize how prevalent debate was at that time, nor do they realize how it was viewed in Indian societies. It was taken very, very seriously (not nearly taken the way we do today). In some parts of India, at certain times, if you lost a debate, you actually literally expected by the rules of the sub-culture of philosophical debate to abandon your view and become the disciple of the person you lost to. If debators, and Commentators, could not prove that all ariyans, including sotapannas of course, were extremely virtuous, then they could very well easily be defeated in debate (suffering whatever consequences that would hold for them and for the preservation of the Dhamma, ie. less followers). The reason is that if a sotapanna can not even stop him self from drinking or telling a lie, what is the reason for even becoming a sotapanna at all? Now keep in mind that I trust the Commentaries probably 99.9% of the time, however, we have to keep in mind that the Commentators were human and may be wrong at times (not sayin they are but that we have to be wary). That is not to say, on the other hand, that the words of the Commentaries should be thrown out simply because they are no the words of the Buddha, but... it is to say that we should realize that there may have been pressures on these people because of social dynamics, and that in situations like that, they are not free from their defilements arising when making choices about what they should or should not say. Not sure if I should post this yet, Mercury not being direct now, but, it is what it is....... Thanks, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ From: rjkjp1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 11:57:14 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Kevin & Rob K, > > Good to see you both around! > > --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Kevin F wrote: > > From: Kevin F > >Rob: When a sotapanna has sex is there thinking of a being? > .... > K: Absolutely! There is thinking of two beings, conceptually. There is no >atta-ditthi, however. > > .... > S: Thank you! I couldn't have said it better! > > No illusions of Atta, doesn't mean no thoughts of beings, otherwise the Buddha >wouldn't have had any metta or karuna! Just namas and rupas rolling on! > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= dear sarah and Kevin Actually this is not my first time to hear what you said above, I have heard of anatta and attaditthi. Just wondering though when sarah wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view which .>thinks our deeds can kill other beings. _____ > Why will the sotapanna never kill because he has "no idea of killing a being" but at the same time have sex or get angry with a being. We all agreed that he thinks of beings right? You seem to be saying he does not have wrong view when lusting and enjoying sex - and this is surely focused on a being- and he has no wrong view when being angry with someone- this I of course agree with. How could a sotapanna ever have wrong view when it has been eradicated. What I dont follow is how you directly connect his lack of murder instinct to his eradication of wrongview. robert #114697 From: "James" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, philip Coristine wrote: > > Ph: Yes, I guess we'll have to disagree. I really think the Buddha's very detailed definition of virtue (for example, the precepts and the 10 akusala kamma patha) is more important than the dictionary defintion. We are followers of the Buddha, not Webster etc. As for the sotapanna, honestly, that is not of concern to me except occasionally when studying the theory of what the noble ones have and haven't transcended. I am really only interested in what I do by body, speech and mind, those actions are all that interest me about sila. > > But good to hear other perspectives! > It is so good to hear your perspective. Really, you are the most virtuous person I know! I met you in person, and know where you live in Tokyo, so I know that you are surrounded by temptations everyday! Being homosexual myself, I am not turned on by the constant parade of half-dressed, sexually clad, high-stocking legged women walking on the street everyday. But you are exposed to that on a daily basis and still you maintain sila and your meditation practice! But, let's just say, that one time you slipped. Let's say you ravished one of those sexy girls walking on the street. Would I think less of you? Would I think that you have less virtue?? No, I wouldn't. We all make mistakes sometimes. I would evaluate the situation in total, what you have to deal with on a daily basis, and still determine that you have perfect virtue- even though you made a mistake in action one time. Phil, that is what I am talking about. We all need to give each other some room to breathe! The commentaries don't allow that, but I say to h*ll with the commentaries! Metta, James #114698 From: philip Coristine Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:17 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna philofillet Hi James >>>It is so good to hear your perspective. Really, you are the most virtuous person I know! I met you in person, and know where you live in Tokyo, so I know that you are surrounded by temptations everyday! Being homosexual myself, I am not turned on by the constant parade of half-dressed, sexually clad, high-stocking legged women walking on the street everyday. But you are exposed to that on a daily basis and still you maintain sila and your meditation practice! >>>>But, let's just say, that one time you slipped. Let's say you ravished one of those sexy girls walking on the street. Would I think less of you? Would I think that you have less virtue?? No, I wouldn't. We all make mistakes sometimes. I would evaluate the situation in total, what you have to deal with on a daily basis, and still determine that you have perfect virtue- even though you made a mistake in action one time. Phil, that is what I am talking about. We all need to give each other some room to breathe! Thanks James, very compassionate, as always. :) As I said in my previous post, there is no need for remorse when there is a backslide in morality, it doesn't do any good. And the tendency to remorse will not come up in any case if one has established wholesome habits consistently. The incidents of bad behaviour are understood as outliers, relics of past habits that must play out, and they have less and less power to cause remorse in comparison to the way the brightness of the newly developed habits fills one's life and fuels confidence and gratitude to the Buddha. We are becoming better people (technically speaking, wholesome factors are developing), that improvement gains momentum, I'm utterly confident about that, no matter how long it takes... Metta, Phil #114699 From: Vince Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... James wrote: > Yes, that is the exact one I spoke about. Good luck reading it! :-) All > Nanavira said is that DO could be viewed as applying to one lifetime. B.Bodhi > argues that DO is only supposed to apply to three lifetimes. (However, my > view, is that DO could apply to both one lifetime and three lifetimes, it is > multidimensional). well, it is a different issue at all... In that point I have the same view of yours; also I think there is an apparent duality in the explanation because the Time was not a concern in this Buddha teaching. On the contrary, the Time was absent with a clear purpose. However, it doesn't mean the Time cannot be managed in other places and explanations to get the same goal. Quite weeks ago I was engaged in a discussion in this same list regarding Abhidhamma and its three-times schema for citta in front what shows the pattica-sammupada and the co-arising of consciousness, nama and rupa. Finally, I have understood there is a conciliation. However, it is interesting checking in these discussions remains the difficult problem of Time. Although in the case of virtues and sotapanna, the problem sounds different. Just one can think in a situation in where a sotapanna develops a good action. As the otapanna is not perfectly established in wisdom, we can think how eventually can arise an unwholesome result from the actions. In example, we can think in the urgent need of stealing a medicine to save the life of somebody. Or in the killing of one person to save the lives of thousand people. Etc. Here, the knowledge of the right action remains beyond the reach of sotapannas. (Just one can read inside Suttas the multiple questions around kamma asked by Sotapannas) Another point is when many of these situations can remain missed for the sotapanna because another reasons. However, anyway the scenery can be useful to show the problematic of moral and wisdom. In such cases, a sotapanna can fall in breaking precepts. And obviously the fault is not in the moral code taught by Buddha but in a lack of wisdom of the present moment and the right thing to do. I think what underlies in the discussion is this: - When one believe in a perfect sila despite attachments are not completely eradicated: it would mean we believe in a moral perfection which can be established completely just by our self-efforts with independence of wisdom. - When one believe the moral virtues can be established but they must be perfected in actions: it would mean that there is need of more wisdom to perfect sila until reaching arhanthood. Until today I have little doubt about the second one, and I fear it is supported inside those Suttas which *clearly* explain the impossible actions for a sotappana: "At the moment of attaining sight, one abandons three things: identity-views, uncertainty, & any attachment to precepts & practices. One is completely released from the four states of deprivation, and incapable of committing the six great wrongs." **Six great wrongs are: murdering one's mother, murdering one's father, murdering an arahant. wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha, choosing anyone other than a Buddha as the foremost teacher. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.01.than.html best, Vince. #114700 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Nina N: Cetasikas such as generosity or pa~n~naa never arise without >kusala citta. They arise and then fall away, but the good >inclinations are carried on from one citta to the next one. >Nina. > KO: it is is the root that make a citta kusala and akusala and not citta. Good inclinations dont arise when bad inclination arise, so where does it accumulate and how does it continue since there is a break when there is change between good and bad. Bad got no problem because there is latency, how about the good then. Where is the text that said citta accumulates and what is inclination in pali word so that I could check the text Ken O >Dear Ken O, >Op 20-apr-2011, om 20:16 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > >> Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to >> confidence, >> >precept, learning, generosity, wisdom, by strong dependence >> condition.< >> >..... >> >> KO: maybe Nina would like to explain where in the text that say citta >> accumulate >------ >N: Cetasikas such as generosity or pa~n~naa never arise without >kusala citta. They arise and then fall away, but the good >inclinations are carried on from one citta to the next one. >Nina. > > > > #114701 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Hi Sarah and Kevin >> .... >> K: Absolutely! There is thinking of two beings, conceptually. There is no >>atta-ditthi, however. >> S: Thank you! I couldn't have said it better! >> >> No illusions of Atta, doesn't mean no thoughts of beings, otherwise the Buddha > >>wouldn't have had any metta or karuna! Just namas and rupas rolling on! KO: but I thought you said that right view is that the object is nama and rupa and now there is being in played, so how could right view arise then since beings are conceptual. How could one refrain from bad deeds than. >dear sarah and Kevin >Actually this is not my first time to hear what you said above, I have heard of >anatta and attaditthi. > >Just wondering though when sarah wrote: >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott >wrote: >>. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed recently with >Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being because of >the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view which >.>thinks our deeds can kill other beings. KO: I like to see the text support of this. It is a wrong view to think our deeds cannot kill a person, if there is no person we killed why is there weighty kamma in killing a father or a mother. Till date I have yet seen Sarah explaining this or any DSGer to explain this, anyone is welcome to explain. Maybe you Kelvin will like to explain this Ken O #114702 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Sarah KO: so now we have what kind of level of panna we are talking :-). I dont wish to search for it because I know when you or Jon said that mundane panna could only happen when there the object is nama and rupa so that the characteristics could be known. I write few comments by DSG by not mentioning name >But it is different with pa~n~naa of the level of satipa.t.thaana, or >insight knowledge. This kind of pa~n~naa is developed in order to see >directly naama and ruupa as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Concepts do >not have these three characteristics. One can think of a table >falling apart, but this is not the same as penetrating the >characteristic of impermanence. The question is the idea that concepts are 'used for >development' of the path. They are not. It was my understanding that the >expression 'mundane panna' is generally used to refer to panna of >satipatthana/vipassana rather than of samatha bhavana. Ken O >>KO: I remember your stand is that panna only arise when the characteristics of > > >the nama and rupa is known. I don't see this in any text that panna only arise >with that. >.... >S: As I've said, you'll never find a place I've ever written or said this. > >It always depends on the context what level and kind of panna is being >discussed. > >Metta > >Sarah >===== > #114703 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:33 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Ken O, --------- <. . .> > KO: I like to see the text support of this. It is a wrong view to think our deeds cannot kill a person, --------- KH: Be fair, Ken: if you are talking about conceptual reality then of course deeds can kill people. No one is saying otherwise. If however, you are talking about absolute reality then there are no people, and there are no actions that can kill a people. There are only dhammas. ------------------------------- > KO: if there is no person we killed why is there weighty kamma in killing a father or a mother. Till date I have yet seen Sarah explaining this or any DSGer to explain this, anyone is welcome to explain. ------------------ KH: It is being explained every day at DSG. Every day we are talking about momentary dhammas arising, performing their functions and ceasing. That's all the world ultimately is. Sometimes the world can consist of a strongly akusala citta experiencing an object. That sort of citta is inevitably associated with miccha-ditthi. Miccha-ditthi believes in the absolute reality of people. It's really quite straightforward. Ken H #114704 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:33 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > > KO: I like to see the text support of this. It is a wrong view >to think our deeds cannot kill a person, > --------- >KH: Be fair, Ken: if you are talking about conceptual reality then >of >course deeds can kill people. No one is saying otherwise. > >If however, you are talking about absolute reality then there are >no >people, and there are no actions that can kill a people. There >are >only dhammas. And in what reality, I pray, you are living? Trees, cars, pedestrians and other physical objects do emperically exist. That is why you can run into one, so you drive around them. If you don't think they exist, then it would be impossible to run into a tree at 100mph. After all, that tree, this car, and you, do not exist - right? Those who are teaching non-existence, are saying one thing and acting in another way. That is why two-tiered truth is proposed. One that you say, and another one that you act. ... With best wishes, Nonexistent Alex typing on non-existent keyboard... #114705 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:45 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---- <. . .> > A: And in what reality, I pray, you are living? Trees, cars, pedestrians and other physical objects do emperically exist. That is why you can run into one, so you drive around them. If you don't think they exist, then it would be impossible to run into a tree at 100mph. After all, that tree, this car, and you, do not exist - right? Those who are teaching non-existence, are saying one thing and acting in another way. That is why two-tiered truth is proposed. One that you say, and another one that you act. ... ---- KH: Here's a question I have asked you before, but I don't remember if you have ever answered. What happens to those things when they die? Are they: (1) reborn, (2) not reborn, (3) both reborn and not reborn, or (4) neither reborn nor not reborn? Ken H #114706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 21-apr-2011, om 18:57 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > KO: it is is the root that make a citta kusala and akusala and not > citta. Good > inclinations dont arise when bad inclination arise, so where does > it accumulate > and how does it continue since there is a break when there is > change between > good and bad. Bad got no problem because there is latency, how > about the good > then. > > Where is the text that said citta accumulates and what is > inclination in pali > word so that I could check the text ------- N: The akusala citta or kusala citta and accompanying cetasikas are doing the accumulating at the moments of javana. Then there are, after these have fallen away, accumulated good and bad dispositions being carried on from one citta to the next citta. aasaya is bias, including both good dispositions and bad dispositions and anusaya includes only akusala dhammas, the latent tendencies. There is a composite word aasayanusaya: aasaya+ anusaya. Explanation follows: Text: ---------- Nina. #114707 From: Rajesh Patil Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:26 pm Subject: 4000 people embrace Buddhism at Buddhagaya. rajpat_00 Dear All, Jai-Bhim! Pl. visit the link for details: http://www.mahanayakonline.com/brandnews.aspx?bid=470 Downtrodden people of India have started re-embracing Buddhism as per guidance of Bodhisattva Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. People of India who were followers of the Buddha, now started re-embracing Buddhism for social salvation. And, In this process 4000 people of Bihar state re-embraced at Buddhagaya on 27 March, 2011. May all those who have started on the path of Dhamma and who have shown this path be Happy. Send your metta for all those. FWD this message to all well-wishers of the Dhamma. with metta Rajesh Make India Buddhist #114708 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:15 pm Subject: Clear Comprehension! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is Awareness & Clear Comprehension! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu should dwell aware and clearly comprehending! This is our instruction to you. How, Bhikkhus, is a Bhikkhu Aware ? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu lives contemplating these four objects : 1: Body as a mere form: Just a group of foul and fragile organs... 2: Feeling as a reactive response assigned to any sense contact... 3: Mind as only a changing set of mentalities and habitual moods... 4: Phenomena simply as perceived momentary mental states... While being keen, ardent, clearly comprehending, and acutely aware , thereby removing covetousness, lust, greed, envy and any discontent, displeasure and frustration rooted in this evanescent world... It is in this very way, Bhikkhus, that a Bhikkhu is Aware ... And how, Bhikkhus, does a Bhikkhu train clear comprehension? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu is one who acts clearly comprehending just exactly whatever he is doing right now, while going forward or back; when looking ahead or looking aside; when flexing or extending limbs; when wearing robes & carrying his bowl; when eating, drinking, tasting & chewing food; when defecating & urinating; when walking, standing, sitting; when falling asleep, waking up, speaking, & when keeping silent! It is indeed in such a way that a Bhikkhu lives in clear comprehension... Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu should dwell aware and clearly comprehending. This is our instruction to you! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm <...> See also: Bag of Bones: A Miscellany on the Body compiled by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: <....> Just a painted puppet! A chain of bones plastered by skin with 9 oozing holes! A heap of sores & rotten excrement with evil intentions! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikďż˝ya. Book [V: 142] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 2 Mindful... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samďż˝hita _/\_ * <....> #114709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:52 am Subject: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) nilovg Dear friends, I read to Lodewijk from my Vipassanaa letters: < Khun Sujin explained that she does not think that she should get rid of all defilements now. She remarked: "I do not think, 'defilements are so ugly', they are just realities. There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why should our first objective not be right understanding? I do not understand why people are so much irritated by their defilements. One is drawn to the idea of self all the time, while one thinks about it whether one has less defilements or more. There is no understanding but merely thinking of kusala and akusala as 'ours'. So long as there is ignorance there must be different degrees of akusala. We should just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one's defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" We may not notice that we think of kusala and akusala as "ours", but the idea is there, deep in our mind. Khun Sujin's reminders can help us to consider more thoroughly what motivates our actions, speech and thoughts. Is it not mostly clinging to ourselves? Sarah remarked that when she reflects on lobha she has dosa and that this "spoils the fun". Khun Sujin answered: "That is only reflection, not the understanding of the characteristic which is not self. Who could change the characteristic of attachment. Understanding should be developed in a natural way. This is a relief. Even if lobha arises again, we should realize it as only a reality. You can understand the characteristic of lobha we talk about a great deal. It's nature is non-self. This way of developing understanding is the most effective way. Then there is no attachment or aversion towards the object which appears. You should not stop pleasure, it is not 'you'."> ------- Nina. #114710 From: "philip" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:36 pm Subject: Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) philofillet Hi Nina and all A Sujin wonders below why people want to get rid of defilements and says we should understand them instead, that is best. In fact understanding defilements largely involves understanding their disadvantages, and understanding disadvantages must surely condition many moments of wisely not wanting defilements. Understanding one's defilements without accompanying development of not wanting to have defilements would be very unfortunate. Understanding defilements that are arising will almost surely condition wanting to be free from them in that moment. Only a fool would understand his arising defilements and not experience desire to be free from them, I think. But I do appreciate that understanding is most important. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > I read to Lodewijk from my Vipassanaa letters: > < Khun Sujin explained that she does not think that she should get > rid of all defilements now. She remarked: > > "I do not think, `defilements are so ugly', they are just realities. > There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all > defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why > should our first objective not be right understanding? I do not > understand why people are so much irritated by their defilements. One > is drawn to the idea of self all the time, while one thinks about it > whether one has less defilements or more. There is no understanding > but merely thinking of kusala and akusala as `ours'. So long as there > is ignorance there must be different degrees of akusala. We should > just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment > of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about > the amount of one's defilements, wondering about it how many > defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware > instantly!" > > We may not notice that we think of kusala and akusala as "ours", but > the idea is there, deep in our mind. Khun Sujin's reminders can help > us to consider more thoroughly what motivates our actions, speech and > thoughts. Is it not mostly clinging to ourselves? Sarah remarked that > when she reflects on lobha she has dosa and that this "spoils the > fun". Khun Sujin answered: > > "That is only reflection, not the understanding of the characteristic > which is not self. Who could change the characteristic of attachment. > Understanding should be developed in a natural way. This is a relief. > Even if lobha arises again, we should realize it as only a reality. > You can understand the characteristic of lobha we talk about a great > deal. It's nature is non-self. This way of developing understanding > is the most effective way. Then there is no attachment or aversion > towards the object which appears. You should not stop pleasure, it is > not `you'."> > > ------- > Nina. > > > > > > > #114711 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:20 pm Subject: The 32 Parts! bhikkhu5 Friends: Awareness of the Body just as a Foul Frame! The Buddha once asked: How does one view the Body only as a Form? Herein, Bhikkhus & Friends, the Bhikkhu contemplates the body from the soles of the feet upward, and from the top of the hair downward like this: This filthy frame with skin stretched over it, which is filled with many kinds of impurities consists of head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, vomit, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestine, membranes, stomach, excrement, brain, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin, tallow, spit, snot, joint-fluid, and urine... Just as if a man with good sight would examine a sack with openings at both ends, filled with various kinds of grain; paddy, beans, sesame, on opening it would recognize its contents thus: That is paddy, this is beans, that is sesame, this is husked rice: Even exactly so does the Bhikkhu investigate this body... While always fully aware & clearly comprehending, he thus removes any lust, urge, envy, frustration and discontent rooted in this world! Such intelligent Bhikkhu keeps contemplating any and all bodies as remote carcasses of filthy foul form. As something bound to emerge, decay and then inevitably vanish... Not regarding the body as 'mine', as belonging to 'me', or as very 'my self'! Not regarding the body as lasting, safe, as pleasant beauty, or as happiness! In this way the intelligent Bhikkhu keeps reviewing any & all bodies, whether internal or external, whether his own or others, and he notes the cause of its arising and the cause of its ceasing, or he just notice: There is this body! In this way he comes to live not clinging to & thus independent of the body! This is the way to contemplate the body only as a transient empty shell... The fine reward is fearlessness of death and thereby fearlessness of all! Without fear there is the mental elevation of gladness and confidence! This contemplation detaches one from the body & form and frees thereby... Clever Disgust by anti-porn thereby cooling all lust and greed for body! Just a painted puppet! A chain of bones plastered by skin with 9 oozing holes! A heap of sores and rotten excrement with evil intentions! For Inspiration have a collection of Corpse Pictures been deposited here: http://s914.photobucket.com/albums/ac350/Asubha/ Password: corpses <....> Source Text: Majjhima Nikďż˝ya 119: Kayagata-Sati Sutta http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Meditation_On_the_Body_Kayagata-Sati.ht m Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samďż˝hita _/\_ * <....> #114712 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:38 pm Subject: Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) kenhowardau Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina and all > > A Sujin wonders below why people want to get rid of defilements and says we should understand them instead, that is best. In fact understanding defilements largely involves understanding their disadvantages, and understanding disadvantages must surely condition many moments of wisely not wanting defilements. Understanding one's defilements without accompanying development of not wanting to have defilements would be very unfortunate. Understanding defilements that are arising will almost surely condition wanting to be free from them in that moment. > > Only a fool would understand his arising defilements and not experience desire to be free from them, I think. > > But I do appreciate that understanding is most important. -------- KH: But haven't you missed the point? Panna knows that *all* dhammas - not just the akusala ones - are conditioned. So, with right understanding, there could be no preference for one dhamma over another, could there? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > I read to Lodewijk from my Vipassanaa letters: > < Khun Sujin explained that she does not think that she should get > rid of all defilements now. She remarked: > > "I do not think, `defilements are so ugly', they are just realities. > There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all > defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why > should our first objective not be right understanding? #114713 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:45 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hello KenH, I am sure you are onto something, I am just not sure about what. Cars & physical objects do not "die". They disintegrate. If there is craving, than according to Orthodox belief, there is rebirth. Only sentient beings can be reborn. With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > ---- > <. . .> > > A: And in what reality, I pray, you are living? > > Trees, cars, pedestrians and other physical objects do emperically exist. That is why you can run into one, so you drive around them. If you don't think they exist, then it would be impossible to run into a tree at 100mph. After all, that tree, this car, and you, do not exist - right? > > Those who are teaching non-existence, are saying one thing and acting in another way. That is why two-tiered truth is proposed. One that you say, and another one that you act. ... > ---- > > KH: Here's a question I have asked you before, but I don't remember if you have ever answered. What happens to those things when they die? Are they: > (1) reborn, > (2) not reborn, > (3) both reborn and not reborn, or > (4) neither reborn nor not reborn? > > Ken H > #114714 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:27 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---- <. . .> > A: I am sure you are onto something, I am just not sure about what. ----- KH: Thanks for answering anyway. I don't know where our conversation might lead, but this looks like a good starting point. -------------- > A: Cars & physical objects do not "die". They disintegrate. -------------- KH: Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are giving answer 4 in the case of cars and physical objects. That is, they are 'neither reborn nor not reborn.' Is that the answer the Buddha gave? Or did he answer with an explanation of dependent origination? -------------- > A: If there is craving, than according to Orthodox belief, there is rebirth. Only sentient beings can be reborn. ------------- KH: So you would give answer 1 in the case of sentient beings. Once again, I think you are diverging from the answer the Buddha gave. Rebirth is just a dependently arisen dhamma. There is no sentient being that is reborn. Ken H #114715 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:42 am Subject: Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) philofillet Hi Ken KH: But haven't you missed the point? Panna knows that *all* dhammas - not just the akusala ones - are conditioned. So, with right understanding, there could be no preference for one dhamma over another, could there? > Ph: point. I was going to write after I posted that we should write about defilements by degree. As you know, there are defilements of the transgression level, the arising level and the latent level. I will modify what I posted by saying that anyone who understands that defilements of the transgression level are causing him to transgress against the precepts or perform akusala kamma patha in a habitual way and does nothing to change that is a fool. But when we understand defilements of subtler degrees, well, that is up to debate, I guess. The kind of understanding that understands latent defilements in a refined way is not something that concerns me at this point, though confidence in that kind of understanding was fostered by listening to A. Sujin. But as for transgression defilements, I wil not pay much attention to what A. Sujin or anyone else has to say about them if they say anything other that "if you understand there is transgression, stop transgressing" or words to that effect. Stop transgressing. It's the first step and I'm very grateful to the Buddha for making that clear to me. Last word to you, if you want it. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Nina and all > > > > A Sujin wonders below why people want to get rid of defilements and says we should understand them instead, that is best. In fact understanding defilements largely involves understanding their disadvantages, and understanding disadvantages must surely condition many moments of wisely not wanting defilements. Understanding one's defilements without accompanying development of not wanting to have defilements would be very unfortunate. Understanding defilements that are arising will almost surely condition wanting to be free from them in that moment. > > > > Only a fool would understand his arising defilements and not experience desire to be free from them, I think. > > > > But I do appreciate that understanding is most important. > -------- > > > > Ken H > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > I read to Lodewijk from my Vipassanaa letters: > > < Khun Sujin explained that she does not think that she should get > > rid of all defilements now. She remarked: > > > > "I do not think, `defilements are so ugly', they are just realities. > > There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all > > defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why > > should our first objective not be right understanding? > #114716 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/23/2011 7:42:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Ken KH: But haven't you missed the point? Panna knows that *all* dhammas - not just the akusala ones - are conditioned. So, with right understanding, there could be no preference for one dhamma over another, could there? > ------------------------------------ The aim of the Dhamma, according to the Buddha, is the end of suffering. Are passadhi and pa~n~na not thus preferable to dukkha, Ken? Or are you just saying it is better not to prefer (i.e., to crave change)? With that I agree. --------------------------------------- Ph: point. I was going to write after I posted that we should write about defilements by degree. As you know, there are defilements of the transgression level, the arising level and the latent level. ------------------------------------------- As for the most basic of defilements, the hindrances, so long as they hold sway, progress is impossible. So, their absence is preferable and should be achieved, Phil. ------------------------------------------ I will modify what I posted by saying that anyone who understands that defi lements of the transgression level are causing him to transgress against the precepts or perform akusala kamma patha in a habitual way and does nothing to change that is a fool. --------------------------------------------- That sounds right to me, Phil! ---------------------------------------------- But when we understand defilements of subtler degrees, well, that is up to debate, I guess. The kind of understanding that understands latent defilements in a refined way is not something that concerns me at this point, though confidence in that kind of understanding was fostered by listening to A. Sujin. But as for transgression defilements, I wil not pay much attention to what A. Sujin or anyone else has to say about them if they say anything other that "if you understand there is transgression, stop transgressing" or words to that effect. Stop transgressing. It's the first step and I'm very grateful to the Buddha for making that clear to me. Last word to you, if you want it. Metta, Phil ==================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:40 am Subject: From my Vipassanaa Letters (II). nilovg Dear friends, The object which appears is the object of which understanding should be developed. When understanding is being developed there is no attachment nor dislike of the object; no attachment when the object is kusala, no dislike when the object is akusala. We do not have to feel guilty when we enjoy ourselves, the enjoyment is only a reality. When we think of our defilements it is actually thinking of ourselves in a particular way all the time. Did we notice how busy we are with "ourselves"? We develop understanding and at times there is some awareness, but when we have problems in our daily life we become frustrated and we find it difficult to be aware of realities. Khun Sujin said: "When there is no awareness there has not been enough listening and not enough intellectual understanding of the objects of insight. One may think that it is enough to know that there are nĺma and rúpa, but their characteristics have to be realized. Knowing the details of realities can help one to see their nature of anattĺ. This is very important for the growth of pa~n~naa. One has to become 'a person who has listened a lot', in Pĺli: bahussutta, in order to attain enlightenment." Sarah asked Khun Sujin questions about the object of right understanding and about details one has to know. I shall quote from their conversation occurring during a traffic jam in Bangkok which lasted for hours: Khun Sujin: "One has to know the details of each of the six doorways, of the way realities are conditioned, of realities as dhĺtus, elements, of the ĺyatanas, bases or sense-fields. The Buddha taught for fortyfive years about nĺma and rúpa. Sĺriputta understood as soon as he heard the word 'dhamma', he understood realities as nĺma and rúpa. For us it is different, we have to listen again and again and to consider what nĺma is and what rúpa is. Seeing right now is an experience, it is just a reality. One has to consider and listen and discuss a great deal about these subjects." Sarah: "We have considered seeing and discussed about the details of realities a great deal, I wonder how much more we should hear about it." Khun Sujin: "Until awareness is aware with understanding right now. That is why the Buddha taught for fortyfive years about nĺma and rúpa. The Abhidhamma is the essence of his teachings. He taught about paramattha dhammas so that one can see the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts. He taught the conditions for realities. Knowing which cetasikas accompany citta helps one to see the nature of anattĺ. It is amazing that there are so many conditions needed for one moment of experiencing visible object, and then that moment is gone completely. It is all very intricate, not everyone can understand this instantly." Sarah: "It never is enough, one can always know the object more precisely and in a more detailed way." Khun Sujin: "Otherwise we underestimate the Buddha's wisdom, we may think that he used just common, ordinary words. He taught us, so that by listening and considering more and more we could one day become a sotĺpanna. By gradually developing understanding we can acquire full understanding of realities which appear. Right understanding of visible object and seeing is the only way to eradicate the latent tendencies of 'I see', and 'me', which are there all the time. Whenever there is feeling, it is 'me' again. The Buddha taught about five khandhas, he taught in many different ways in order to help people to consider more, to understand more, so that, when there is awareness, right understanding can gradually develop." Sarah: "When there is no awareness we become impatient. Why is there not more awareness?" Khun Sujin: "There are not enough pĺramís (perfections) accumulated." ---------- Nina. #114718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:02 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 23-apr-2011, om 0:36 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Understanding one's defilements without accompanying development of > not wanting to have defilements would be very unfortunate. > Understanding defilements that are arising will almost surely > condition wanting to be free from them in that moment. ------ N: I think that the point is that clinging to an idea of self who wants to be a good person does not help much. Seeing the disadvantages of defilements is one level of sati, but not yet satipatthaana. Developing understanding that sees them as only conditioned dhammas surely is most effective, it will lead to their elimination. This is satipatthaana. Some people are afraid of defilements and they worry a lot, take them very heavily. It is helpful to see them as just conditioned elements. In the past we had the same defilements and how can we expect to be without them soon? If we expect too much we shall become frustrated and downhearted. Nina. #114719 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:30 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Hi Nina > N: I think that the point is that clinging to an idea of self who > wants to be a good person does not help much. Ph: Clinging to an idea of self who wants to be a good person might not help much, but understanding that factors are arising more and more often that lead to what is known as a "good person" conceptually helps very, very much. A. Sujin said "not enough" about conventional sati, but thankfully she did not deny it's importance, if she did she would be a very poor teacher. Not enough, yes, definitely not enough. Seeing the > disadvantages of defilements is one level of sati, but not yet > satipatthaana. Ph: Not enough, but important. Sati of the level of satipatthana is not to be tried for, I won't try for it. NIna: Developing understanding that sees them as only > conditioned dhammas surely is most effective, it will lead to their > elimination. Ph: Of course it's most effective. Don't encourage me to try to have it, because that will be counterproductive. Nna* This is satipatthaana. Some people are afraid of > defilements and they worry a lot, take them very heavily. Ph: I don't. But I celebrate the fact that they are losing power. The Buddha tells us to understand where our blemish is at, so to speak. We understand when defilements are losing power. When they rise up again as they will, we don't have remorse, because we understand they are still conditioned to arise up in that way. I'm not afraid of defilements, nor do I worry about them. But I know the Buddha makes it clear that unless gross defilements lose their power, there will not be progress re the medium and subtle defilements. We see that in the sutta with the simile of the silversmith, ladling off the scum, the gross defilements. PNina*It is > helpful to see them as just conditioned elements. > In the past we had the same defilements and how can we expect to be > without them soon? If we expect too much we shall become frustrated > and downhearted. Ph: I would say, Nina, that if one spent one's rare human life with sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching and there was not enough understnading to see progress in reducing the power of the gross defilements, if one continued to progress against the the precepts in a ***habitual*** way, there would be cause to be downhearted, unless one was completely obvlivious. As for the medium and latent tendencies, there is no foolish aspiration on my part at least to see them gone in this lifetime.....especially the latents.... I have been enjoying a break from this kind of posting, so I will retreat into lurking again. I like listening to the A.S talks about satipatthana, she is very good on that subject, seeing now, hearing now, etc, and I think Survey of Paramattha Dhammas is a fantastic book, but I still have peeves, obviously, on the subject of gross defilements and conventional sila. Not enough, but it must be established. In the other post to Ken H, I think I used a harsh sounding word, saying people who transgress habitually are "fools", but I was paraphrasing the Buddha, who said the wise man and the fool can be soon in behavious in body, speech and thought, "wisdom shines forth in behaviour." That is a modest degree of wisdom, but that's the wisdom that interests me most, still. Love to hear about panna working its way deeper though! Thanks Nina. I will drop out of this thread now. Metta, Phil #114720 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:01 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) philofillet Hi again > A. Sujin said "not enough" about conventional sati, but thankfully she did not deny it's importance, if she did she would be a very poor teacher. Not enough, yes, definitely not enough. Ooops, I meant to write conventional sila, A Sujin said "not enough" about having conventional sila. And I agree with her, not enough. But without it, well, misery. Metta, Phil #114721 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >KH: Be fair, Ken: if you are talking about conceptual reality then of course >deeds can kill people. No one is saying otherwise. > > >If however, you are talking about absolute reality then there are no people, and > >there are no actions that can kill a people. There are only dhammas. > >KH: It is being explained every day at DSG. Every day we are talking about >momentary dhammas arising, performing their functions and ceasing. That's all >the world ultimately is. > >Sometimes the world can consist of a strongly akusala citta experiencing an >object. That sort of citta is inevitably associated with miccha-ditthi. >Miccha-ditthi believes in the absolute reality of people. > >It's really quite straightforward. KO: The commentay to Muliapariyaya sutta, B Bodhi, page 44, all this below two paragraph is talking about wordlings, this one part of the concieving of views where he conceives (himself as) earth <> pg 38 (how is earth used in this sutta) He Perceive Earth as Earth <> The commentary speaks for itself that conceiving of views is because of a self view on the concepts etc and not because there is no absolute reality of people. Seeing nama and rupa which is necesary to attain supradmundane stage is not about discarding concepts or conventional. The ancient master and texts are clear in their instructions and have never reject concepts or conventional as part of the path. So should we think we are better than the ancient masters because dhamma is not in the text and is in our understanding. IMHO, I felt the conceit we have at times when we think our understanding is better or our teachers are better than the ancient masters. Think about what I said whether what you have learn is in line with the doctrine. The next few days, if I got time, I will type out the commentary text talking about why there is kamma in killing even though dhamma is momentary. Ken O #114722 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > But as for transgression defilements, I will not pay much attention to what > A. Sujin or anyone else has to say about them if they say anything other > that "if you understand there is transgression, stop transgressing" or words > to that effect. > > Stop transgressing. It's the first step and I'm very grateful to the > Buddha for making that clear to me. I think you have identified an important crux of the matter, when it comes to a most important aspect of what constitutes the path itself, and where and how one follows the pathway delineated by the commentators, as opposed to the straightforward interpretation of the words of the Buddha when it comes to Right Action. My understanding is that the Commentarial/K. Sujin philosophy is an extremely radical one - that there is no such thing as action in ultimate reality, and that in the true sphere of existence there is only experiencing of dhammas, either kusala or akusala ones. I stand to be corrected if I have overinterpreted the "dhammas only" philosophy, but this is what I hear being said over and over again. We are told that kamma is *only* produced by intention/volition, and that intention/volition is of the nature of a cetasika that arises with a citta, nothing more or less. We are told, as I have come to understand after repeatedly questioning it, that kamma patha does not create the most serious vipaka because the action involved has been completed, but because the intention is of a strength to cause action. The action itself, ie, the affect the action has on another being, is not what causes the increased kamma. To summarize, the kamma both kusala and akusala is caused only by mental factors, which is to say, by the qualities of experience, not by any form of action. My understanding is that according to dhamma theory, there are no real-world objects in existence, no cars, bodies or trees; there are no actions and nothing to act on - no walking, sitting or lying down, no murder and no drinking; that every single thing we experience as actions and objects are conceptual: stitched together by the mind to create the illusion of a world in which such things really do exist. Yes, it is important to do kusala things and avoid akusala things, but the reason for doing so is because of the experiential dhammas that correspond to such conceptual doings, not because anything is really done. By creating the conditions for kusala to arise, we will experience more and more of the truth of dhammas, and the understand more and more of the illusion of the conceptual world we seem to inhabit. I don't agree with all of the above, by the way, but I do think it's an accurate reflection of the radical commentarial interpretation of the Dhamma. And I think that is why any attention to the "mundane" aspect of the Dhamma as spoken by the Buddha -- refraining from akusala actions, for instance, will be out of accord with what you will hear from those who adhere to this interpretation. My view of the Dhamma includes understanding, intention, practice and right and wrong action. The dhammas-only interpretation only includes understanding and intention, along with the various mental factors that can be experienced by mind; no action and no objects as we refer to in the world. It reflects a very different understanding of the path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #114723 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO: it is is the root that make a citta kusala and akusala and not citta. Good > inclinations dont arise when bad inclination arise, so where does it accumulate > and how does it continue since there is a break when there is change between > good and bad. Bad got no problem because there is latency, how about the good > then. Could I ask you how latency takes place for akusala intentions, and how this does not exist for kusala intentions? Thank you. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114724 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:33 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > --------- > <. . .> > > KO: I like to see the text support of this. It is a wrong view to think our deeds cannot kill a person, > --------- > > KH: Be fair, Ken: if you are talking about conceptual reality then of course deeds can kill people. No one is saying otherwise. No one is saying otherwise in conceptual reality; however you have said that Dhamma *does not apply* to conceptual reality at all; that Dhamma *only* concerns paramatha dhammas. If it is wrong view to think that a person exists, why is it not also wrong view to think that our "deeds" can "kill" someone? And if that *is* wrong view, then why is kamma patha not cancelled out for someone who has right view? > If however, you are talking about absolute reality then there are no people, and there are no actions that can kill a people. There are only dhammas. Well, what is important, wrong view & right view or only right view? Why does wrong view matter at all? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114725 From: Lukas Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:44 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna szmicio Hi Phil, > Thanks James, very compassionate, as always. > :) As I said in my previous post, there is no need for > remorse when there is a backslide in morality, it doesn't do > any good. L: My cousine used to say that remorse, bad moments, grieving... dossa...aversion..those are the only moment that gives you a chance to think up, ponder over some things. That this helps to give up all addictions. Best wishes Lukas #114726 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:10 pm Subject: Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) kenhowardau Hi Phil, --------------- <. . .> > Ph: I will modify what I posted by saying that anyone who understands that defilements of the transgression level are causing him to transgress against the precepts or perform akusala kamma patha in a habitual way and does nothing to change that is a fool. --------------- KH: Yes, and what is a fool? Ultimately it's just five fleeting khandhas, isn't it? It's not me, not you, not anyone. ------------------------ > PH: But when we understand defilements of subtler degrees, well, that is up to debate, I guess. The kind of understanding that understands latent defilements in a refined way is not something that concerns me at this point, though confidence in that kind of understanding was fostered by listening to A. Sujin. ------------------------- KH: If I remember correctly, A. Sujin says the only way to understand a latent defilement is to understand a presently arisen defilement. ------------------------------------- > Ph: But as for transgression defilements, I wil not pay much attention to what A. Sujin or anyone else has to say about them if they say anything other that "if you understand there is transgression, stop transgressing" or words to that effect. -------------------------------------- KH: That seems a hard line to take. If you were counselling an habitual criminal, would you tell him, "Just stop it!" I doubt you would. I think you would sympathise with him, and explain how most other people, if they were in his shoes (if they were given the conditions he was given) would be just as bad. ---------------------------------------------- > Ph: Stop transgressing. It's the first step and I'm very grateful to the Buddha for making that clear to me. ---------------------------------------------- KH: Are you sure that is what the Buddha taught? Or did he teach us to understand the way things are? ---------------- >Ph: Last word to you, if you want it. ---------------- KH: He can't have taught both. There is only one way, and the Buddha either taught right understanding here and now, or he taught rite and ritual. Ken H #114727 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna philofillet Hi Lukas (and Robert E and Ken) > L: My cousine used to say that remorse, bad moments, grieving... dossa...aversion..those are the only moment that gives you a chance to think up, ponder over some things. That this helps to give up all addictions. Well, I think it all works together. I know that in the past when I did very bad things due to drugs and alcohol, there was certainly remorse. And later, there was less remorse because of more understanding of the conditioned nature of the gross defilements. What led to me giving up alchohol completely? What will prevent me from staying that way? Really, there's no way to know to what degree the painful remorse contributed, probably it did. But without the wisdom to see into the conditioned nature of things, that remorse would just be agonizing. We're very lucky to have sensitivity to Dhamma, we can have moments of remorse, but maybe they are not so heavy because there is also wisdom. I know you know your behaviour is harmful and has to change, no matter what friends here say about it being accumulated for so long, etc, trying to have different dhammas is wrong etc. (And at the moments when they say that they are not good friends in my opinion.) You know that the most harmful thing is the behaviour, so there are good conditions for a change to come. And how great that in addition to this need to change behaviour, deeper than this need to change behaviour, there is also listening to teachings about understanding that will take us to even deeper, towards even more liberating changes! But first let's work to change the behaviour that causes so much pain to ourselves and others! We can do it! And when we fail to do it, no need to kick ourselves too hard, because yes, there are accumulations in that direction. But it's a fool's game to think that it is acceptable to just keep doing harmful behaviour, that seeing it as anatta somehow makes it less destructive of our virtues and of our rare human birth. I think I will have time to skype you next week, but can't promise. Metta, Phil p.s thanks also Rob E and Ken H, I will refrain from further commment unless it is to Lukas. I really want out of this now! #114728 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:34 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > -------------- > > A: Cars & physical objects do not "die". They disintegrate. > -------------- > > KH: Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are giving answer 4 >in the case of cars and physical objects. That is, they are 'neither >reborn nor not reborn.' Your question is incorrectly put. Cars & physical objects do not die like living beings. So what happens after death is inapplicable to inanimate physical objects. >KH:Is that the answer the Buddha gave? Or did he answer with an >explanation of dependent origination? Only when it comes to rebirth of sentient beings does D.O apply. >KH:Once again, I think you are diverging from the answer the Buddha >gave. Rebirth is just a dependently arisen dhamma. There is no >sentient being that is reborn. The dependently arisen dhamma of rebirth applies only to sentient beings with craving. With best wishes, Alex #114729 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:22 pm Subject: The 9 corpse meditations! bhikkhu5 Friends: Awareness of the Body as a Live Corpse! The Blessed Buddha said: If a monk sees a corpse 1, 2, 3 days dead; swollen, blue & festering, thrown in cemetery, he then utilizes this experience on his own body: Verily, exactly so is also my own body; it is of the very same nature; so disgusting will it inevitably become and it cannot ever escape it... If a monk sees a body thrown in the cemetery, being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different worms and maggots... If a monk sees a corpse reduced to a skeleton with some flesh and blood still attached to it, and held together by the sinews... If a monk sees a cadaver; a blood-besmeared skeleton, but without any flesh, held together by the tendons as a chain of bones... If a monk sees a carcass; just a skeleton without any flesh or blood, yet still held together by the tendons... If a monk sees a skeleton of separated bones, scattered in a mess, here a hand bone, there a foot bone, the pelvis, spine & the skull... If a monk sees a skeleton simply as bleached white shell-like bones... If a monk sees bare bones thrown in the cemetery lying heaped up... If a monk sees a stack of bones now gone rotten & turning into dust, he then applies this experience to his own body: Verily, exactly so is also my own body; it is of the very same nature; so fragile & feeble is it, it will inevitably turn into dust and it cannot ever escape it... Then he lives fearless, detached, and clings to nothing in this world!!! Clever Disgust cools all obsessive greed and addictive lust: For Inspiration are Corpse Pictures Only for Adults deposited here: http://s914.photobucket.com/albums/ac350/Asubha/ Guest Password: corpses The Body is just a painted puppet! A chain of bones plastered by skin with 9 oozing holes! A heap of sores & rotten excrement with evil intentions! <...> Source Text: Majjhima Nikâya 119: Kayagata-Sati Sutta http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Meditation_On_the_Body_Kayagata-Sati.ht m Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #114730 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: p.s thanks also Rob E and Ken H, I will refrain from further commment unless it is to Lukas. I really want out of this now! No need to comment back - just wanted you to know, in case it wasn't clear, that I was agreeing with your point of view. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114731 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Video conferencing sarahprocter... Dear Kevin, --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Kevin F wrote: >Kevin: I'm glad you are interested Robert! Let's see if we can get a few more responses and if there is a large interest maybe we can try to get something off the ground. I'd be interested in group moderator opinions and feedback as well, please. .... S: I think it's a great idea and one that was discussed some time back. However, we're so busy and travelling for now, so, while we'd be glad to be kept in the loop, I'm not sure we'd be able to contribute for the time being. Perhaps you could be the DSG video conference moderator! One on one skype chats are a lot easier to arrange, we find and encourage anyone in the meantime to make contact. I'd like to chat to you, sometime, Kevin and others I've never spoken to. Perhaps in due course! Metta Sarah ======= #114732 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, Kevin & all, --- On Thu, 21/4/11, rjkjp1 wrote: >Just wondering though when sarah wrote: >>S: This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view which thinks our deeds can kill other beings. R:> Why will the sotapanna never kill because he has "no idea of killing a being" but at the same time have sex or get angry with a being. We all agreed that he thinks of beings right? ... S: "Thinks of beings" is not the same as having "wrong idea of beings (as existing)". When worldings have sex or get angry, there may or may not be wrong view conditioning the lobha or dosa by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural dependent condition). When a sotapanna has lobha or dosa, definitely there is not even the anusaya of ditthi which can condition any unwholesome states as we agree. When wordlings have the strong intention to harm others, such as by killing, stealing, lying or sexual misconduct, there is still the tendency of ditthi, not understanding namas and rupas, which conditions such acts. When there is an understanding of namas and rupas now, of kamma and vipaka now, how could one have any idea of taking someone's life, would you say? Even with a little understanding of dhammas and conditions, I think that most of us here don't kill or intentionally harm others. ... >You seem to be saying he does not have wrong view when lusting and enjoying sex - and this is surely focused on a being- and he has no wrong view when being angry with someone- this I of course agree with. How could a sotapanna ever have wrong view when it has been eradicated. .... S: The sotapanna cannot have wrong view. Only panna can know before that, in the case of a worldling, whether and when there is wrong view involved when "lusting and enjoying sex". Different cittas, different moments. There may well be wrong view involved while the tendency is still there. Also when angry, only panna can know whether it is conditioned by wrong view which may arise in between the moments of anger. This is why right view leads to a gradual reduction, and eventually an eradication of, kilesa. As Kevin wrote: "Due to the persons level of perfections who has removed self-view, I don't think those accumulations are that strong. I don't think it can happen until there are enough perfections developed." ... >What I dont follow is how you directly connect his lack of murder instinct to his eradication of wrongview. .... S: I hope I've explained. Phil raised just the same qus in KK with K.Sujin as I recall. I forget if you were still there or not, but I'm going to transcribe the discussion, as it may be helpful for others too. Metta Sarah ======== #114733 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Video conferencing christine_fo... Hello all, Hmmm. Worth a try, but ... we use video-conferencing frequently at work between various offices - many of us know each other, and there is no feeling of Big Brother watching/listening. But what happens is that conversation/discussion dries up, people fairly quickly stop engaging, have other things to do and it ends up with the same one or two waiting .... with metta Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Kevin, > > --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Kevin F wrote: > > >Kevin: I'm glad you are interested Robert! Let's see if we can get a few more responses and if there is a large interest maybe we can try to get something off the ground. I'd be interested in group moderator opinions and feedback as well, please. > .... > S: I think it's a great idea and one that was discussed some time back. However, we're so busy and travelling for now, so, while we'd be glad to be kept in the loop, I'm not sure we'd be able to contribute for the time being. Perhaps you could be the DSG video conference moderator! > > One on one skype chats are a lot easier to arrange, we find and encourage anyone in the meantime to make contact. I'd like to chat to you, sometime, Kevin and others I've never spoken to. Perhaps in due course! > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #114734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna nilovg Dear Philip, I think you qrote a nice and helpful letter to Lukas, but there is a point that may be misunderstood. Op 24-apr-2011, om 1:11 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But it's a fool's game to think that it is acceptable to just keep > doing harmful behaviour, that seeing it as anatta somehow makes it > less destructive of our virtues and of our rare human birth. ----- N: These are never announced here on dsg as the Buddha's teaching on anattaa. If you think so, perhaps it is time to explain more. Knowing the different cittas, understanding that these are conditioned will instead encourage more mettaa and karu.na. And it is mettaa that conditions siila. Especially mettaa accompanied by understanding. It is lack of mettaa and respect for others when we behave badly, even giving in to drugs or alcohol, since these lead to akusala that harms ourselves and others. Nina. #114735 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:56 am Subject: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, Phil & all, The following are a few short transcriptions from the discussions in Kaeng Krajan with Khun Sujin on the topic of killing and beings which Rob was questioning me about: ***** Phil: People are concepts. How can there be killing if there are no beings in reality? KS: Without citta, can there be anyone? Can there be any being to be killed? Can anyone kill the tree, the mountain? No use! Citta differentiates a being and a mountain. Phil: Are we killing citta? KS: Can anyone kill citta and rupa? Only conditions [determine]for life to continue on. A sotapanna has an understanding of all namas and rupas as not self, so there's no idea of killing. Only kamma can condition the last moment of life [which is] vipaka. The more we understand one moment of life, one citta, without that there's no life. We think we live among people wanting to kill and so on, but actually, [there's] just living in darkness thinking of people and things - no one at all [just the] arising of citta - wholesome or unwholesome, depending on conditions. **** Phil: So we're interfering with another life force... KS: You just want life to end, the other's life to end up. Phil: But is there the other? A friend said the idea of impacting others is a wrong understanding, so the idea of wanting or causing another's life continuity to end - isn't that wrong understanding? I can't yet understand how we can say we don't impact another's life. KS: Can a sotapanna kill anyone? Phil: The ability to kill anyone is not there anymore for a sotapanna. KS: Because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as not self. Sarah: No idea of a being [existing]. Ivan: Citta conditions the next citta. ***** KS: So what is the killing, the actual.., what you call killing? Phil: The life-continuity - the next citta doesn't arise. KS: Isn't it the cetana, the intention to kill? So there is that intention as the cause to bring a result because who will die does not depend on the others, but it depends on one's own kamma condition to end up right then. Nothing [else] can condition the last citta of life at all. Only kamma, because the last moment is vipaka. Kamma and vipaka. Phil: I'm going to have to listen to that many times to understand it all. Sarah: We think that someone kills another person, but in reality what brings about the death is only kamma. Jon: The cuti citta is a vipaka citta from past kamma. Phil: Of another? Jon: No. Phil: We have our own intention to kill and that will bring its own vipaka. I see. KS: The intention of killing will bring a result. Phil: I see. The idea of our kamma resulting in the other person's vipaka is not right. KS: The more we understand about [how] one moment is life, just one moment of citta, without that, there's no life..... So we think that we live among people wanting to kill or do something, but actually it's only thinking in darkness about people and things. No one at all. Only the arising of citta - wholesome or unwholesome, depending on conditions. ***** Metta Sarah ======= #114736 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:13 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) nilovg Dear Rob E, You touch on an essential point. I notice that these points come up here on dsg all the time. You can help many others in bringing this up. I shall try to contribute to clearing up some misunderstandings. Op 23-apr-2011, om 21:10 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > My view of the Dhamma includes understanding, intention, practice > and right and wrong action. The dhammas-only interpretation only > includes understanding and intention, along with the various mental > factors that can be experienced by mind; no action and no objects > as we refer to in the world. It reflects a very different > understanding of the path. ------- N: There 'seems' to be a contradiction between paramattha dhammas and social interaction, between persons. If we think of the six worlds that flash in and out it may help us to see that there is no problem here. Like when seeing now, there is the world of colours, and this does not last. Quite different from hearing, when there is the world of sound. Thinking is conditioned and then, when thinking arises, there is the world of thinking. One can think of other beings with lobha, dosa or moha, or with mettaa and karu.na. Thinking does not last, then there is seeing again, or the experience of tangible object. This is what happens in practice, and it occurs quite naturally. No need to speculate on what exists, what does not exist, no need even to think: this is a concept, this is a paramattha dhamma. We learn to be aware of naama and ruupa but it is very natural that there are in between many moments of thinking of people. As the Buddha teaches: it is beneficial to think of them with mettaa and karu.na. When we see the benefit of this, we can become 'an understanding person' as Kh Sujin says. These six worlds that change so quickly, yes, these are dhammas. Thinking is conditioned and does not last, it is a dhamma. When you say: dhammas-only interpretation, I would say: this thought does not have to occur. Perhaps it would be helpful if you bring forward a few points in short, because I think this would help others. ------ Nina. #114737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:15 am Subject: From my Vipassanaa Letters. (III) nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin: "One should not cling to the idea of 'I have lots of anger, I try not to have it.' Then there is only thinking with the idea of self all the time. I don't mind what level of akusala will arise, even if it is strong anger. It arises and then it is gone, it cannot stay. What about the present moment? I always encourage people to have right understanding instead of trying to control with the idea of self. If that is the case they will never reach the level of understanding realities, not even understanding based on reflection about nĺma and rúpa. There can be awareness of anger you have talked about a great deal. When it arises and performs its function it is there for you to see its characteristic as 'just a reality', instead of thinking about it." Sarah was wondering whether it would not be useful sometimes to set rules for one's behaviour. She was wondering how one can correct unwholesome speech. Khun Sujin reminded her that whatever one is doing or not doing, it is not self. Don't we forget that all the time? We know that we have not eradicated the clinging to the idea of "self", but we do not realize how deeply rooted wrong view is. Khun Sujin said: "Even when one wants to set rules there is no self, it is only thinking. The only way to get rid of the self is to understand all situations. One should not set any rules, there should only be development of understanding of realities. Unwholesome speech can be corrected by pańńĺ which sees its danger and that is one level of sati. Another level is sati of satipatthĺna. The most precious moment is the moment of being aware. If one forces oneself, sets rules or clings to a certain practice it does not help one to understand this moment, one's thinking, seeing or hearing." .... We may be troubled by thinking about a bad experience in the past but then we need right understanding to start anew. "Forget yesterday", Khun Sujin said. "Satipatthĺna saves one from akusala moments", she remarked. If there can be awareness of our own akusala which arises, the object is a paramattha dhamma, and there is no involvement in concepts. We have heard this before, but we have to hear it again and again before it sinks in. Our goal is the understanding of the reality appearing at this moment. We do not go any further than this moment. If we think of problems or situations there is no understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, Khun Sujin said. -------- Nina. #114738 From: "azita" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again gazita2002 hallo Lucas, here are some answers to yr questions: > > "1. What's the characteristic of seeing? of hearing? etc. This seems like that > > is a lot of stories after seeing. Shall we try to know seeing or visible object > > now? Does considering thinking just as a mental phenomena-activity helps to > > understand more?". > > azita: the characteristic of seeing - that which sees - nothing more, nothing less, jst that which sees. A. Sujin said jst learn to understand that which is ignored by ignorance The same answer for the other doorways eg; hearing is that which hears. Trying to know seeing or visible object now - means there is a self trying to do something. A. Sujin's comment was 'just understand' does considering thinking jst as a mental phenomena-activity help to understand more - A.Sujin's comment "wanting a helper-always looking for a way to 'assist' understanding. Hoping these brief answers help Lukas. Right now I cannot concentrate as I am in an Internet place and all the people are using skype and there's about 6 languages being spoken - loudly - they seem to be competing with ea other. Its jst sound, I know, but I cant think. Patience, courage and good cheer azita #114739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again nilovg Dear Azita, I like your short answers to Lukas. A: Hoping these brief answers help Lukas. Right now I cannot concentrate as I am in an Internet place.. N: In between the hearing there were kusala cittas that convey the essence of the Dhamma. Op 24-apr-2011, om 14:13 heeft azita het volgende geschreven: > Trying to know seeing or visible object now - means there is a self > trying to do something. A. Sujin's comment was 'just understand' > > does considering thinking jst as a mental phenomena-activity help > to understand more - A.Sujin's comment "wanting a helper-always > looking for a way to 'assist' understanding. ------ N: So much thinking involved: how can there be more understanding, what can help understanding. Instead: just understand. And it is possible, after we heard the Dhamma there are conditions for more understanding, without us doing anything to promote it. ------ Nina. #114740 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Nina . With regard to the expression “biases and underlying tendencies”, > ĂĄsayĂĄnusaya, some teachers who pay attention only to the letter and > do not investigate the meaning, wrongly assume that this expression > is only a name. However, other teachers investigate the meaning of > the terms that are used. They define the meaning of the term satta, > being, as someone who is endowed with all kinds of properties. As to > the term ĂĄsaya, bias, they explain this as dependence, abode or > support on which beings depend. This term denotes the disposition to > wrong view or to right view that has been accumulated. It denotes the > disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as clinging to sense > objects, or the disposition to all that is good, such as renunciation > that has been accumulated. KO: I would like to see the pali text please or the text reference as in PTS so that I could search it it CSCD. I am quite interested in asaya and adhimutti and tempermants and inclinations. Could you give the pali word for temperaments and inclincations as I like to investigate more. These few dhamma that are used which is not classified under citta and cetasikas and rupa but have conditioning factor on them.  The accumulation you are saying is just asaya that accumlates and not citta that accumulates. We have to be clear on the function of each dhamma and not infering. Just like anusayas are in kusala, aksuala and vipaka cittas, does that mean the all kusala citta should be aksuala since latency is only aksuala. Words like accumulation are also used in text accumulation of skills, of merit, or corruptions or wisdom, it does not infer that citta accumulates. In my personal opinion and not of the text, accumulation is different from increasing and decreasing of wisdom and ignorance or latency or asaya because accumulation collects and does not increase and does not descrease. There is no minus and plus for accumulaton but there is for wisdom, ignorance, latency and asaya. Though latency only eradicated at supramundane citta that does not mean it cannot be weaken or descrease in strength during arisen of kusala or aksuala cittas. regarding the the asaya you are talking about, I like to add more form the commentary so that more people would understand the term usage -  The Book of Analysis - pg 445    (here asayo is translated as inclination) 815 And what is the inclination (of though) of beings? The world is eternal or the word is not external, the world is finite or the world is infinite, vital principle and the body are the same or vital principle and the body are different, a being (text - tathagata) exist after death, or a being does not exist after death, or a being exists and ddoes not exist after deat, or a being neither exists nor does not exist afer death, thus there are beings depending on becoming views, depending on non-becoming views, By not adhering to both these extremes, ability in conformity and knowledge as it really is in specific casuality and dependently orginated sates is gained. This is the inclination of beings.  Then in pg 207 of Dispeller of Delusion II (here asayo is translated as habitat)  <<2285.  But when the Blessed One knows the habitat of beings, he knows it even at the moment of the non-occurence of their [wrong] views and of their insight and path knowledge. For this is said: "He (he here is Buddha) knows of one who cultivates sense desire: This person gives weight to the sense desires, has sense desires has his habitat, is resolved upon the sense desire, He knows kows of cultivating renunication...ill will . non ill will... stiffness and torport,, ,he nows o fone who cultivates the perception of light: This person gives weight to stiffness and torpor, has stiffness and torpor as his habitat, is resolved upon stiffness and torpor.>>   Ken O ----- Original Message ---- > From: Nina van Gorkom > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, 22 April 2011 16:10:35 > Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated > > Dear Ken O, > Op 21-apr-2011, om 18:57 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > > > KO: it is is the root that make a citta kusala and akusala and not > > citta. Good > > inclinations dont arise when bad inclination arise, so where does > > it accumulate > > and how does it continue since there is a break when there is > > change between > > good and bad. Bad got no problem because there is latency, how > > about the good > > then. > > > > Where is the text that said citta accumulates and what is > > inclination in pali > > word so that I could check the text > ------- > N: The akusala citta or kusala citta and accompanying cetasikas are > doing the accumulating at the moments of javana. Then there are, > after these have fallen away, accumulated good and bad dispositions > being carried on from one citta to the next citta. > aasaya is bias, including both good dispositions and bad dispositions > and anusaya includes only akusala dhammas, the latent tendencies. > There is a composite word aasayanusaya: aasaya+ anusaya. Explanation > follows: > Text: > > mentioned in the “Path of Discrimination” , “Pa.tisambhidĂĄmagga” of > the Khuddaka NikĂĄya, in the MĂĄtika (Table of Contents), among the > seventythree kinds of knowledge. These latent tendencies are further > explained in its Commentary, the “SaddhammappakĂĄsinĂ” under the > Explanation (Niddesa) of Knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying > tendencies (ĂĄsayĂĄnusaya ~naa.na). > The “Path of Discrimination”, in the MĂĄtika, mentions the “Knowledge > of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies” as the sixtynineth kind > of knowledge among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. This > knowledge is not shared by disciples, it is only the Buddha who has > this knowledge. We read in the “Path of Discrimination”: > > “There are seventythree kinds of knowledge and among these the first > sixtyseven are shared by disciples. The last six are are not shared > by disciples but are exclusively knowledges of the Buddha. These are: > penetration of others’ faculties, knowledge of beings’ biases and > underlying tendencies, knowledge of the twin metamorphosis, knowledge > of the great compassion, omniscient knowledge and unobstructed > knowledge .” > > The Commentary to the “Path of Discrimination” gives more > explanations about the knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying > tendencies. > > With regard to the expression “biases and underlying tendencies”, > ĂĄsayĂĄnusaya, some teachers who pay attention only to the letter and > do not investigate the meaning, wrongly assume that this expression > is only a name. However, other teachers investigate the meaning of > the terms that are used. They define the meaning of the term satta, > being, as someone who is endowed with all kinds of properties. As to > the term ĂĄsaya, bias, they explain this as dependence, abode or > support on which beings depend. This term denotes the disposition to > wrong view or to right view that has been accumulated. It denotes the > disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as clinging to sense > objects, or the disposition to all that is good, such as renunciation > that has been accumulated. > The defilements that lie persisting in beings’ continuous stream of > cittas are called anusaya, latent tendencies. This term denotes the > defilements such as clinging to sense objects that is strong. > > The terms ĂĄsaya and anusaya are joined together as ĂĄsayĂĄnusaya: > biases and latent tendencies. It has become one word, which is > actually a twin compound, formed by two words. The words disposition > (adhimutti) and conduct (carita) are in the text of the “Path of > Discrimination”combined with the expression ĂĄsayĂĄnusaya: biases and > latent tendencies. > In the text, after he (SĂĄriputta) has used the expression “knowledge > of people’s biases and latent tendencies”, ĂĄsayĂĄnusaya ~naa.na, he > speaks of the knowledge of people’s behaviour (carita) and > resolutions or dispositions (adhimutti). We read (Ch 69, 585): > > “Here the Perfect One knows beings’ biases, he knows their underlying > tendencies (ĂĄsayĂĄnusaya ~naa.na), he knows their behaviour (carita), > he knows their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable > and incapable.> > > ---------- > Nina. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > #114741 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >Could I ask you how latency takes place for akusala intentions, and how this >does not exist for kusala intentions? I could only answer how for aksuala intentions, The Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary. pg 261 <<9. The latent defilements (anusaya) are what lie (senti) persisting (anuanu) in the mental continuum in the sense of not having been abandon [by the path]; that is meant is that when they obtained an appropriate conditioon, they arise. For the unabandoned defiliemenst, which are capable of arising when the conditions are obtained, exist in the mental continuum as it were comtinuously (anu anu) sleeping (saita and in that state called latent defilements>> In the commentary of the Right View it shows how the latency and ignorance condition each other The Taints <<70. In the section on the taints, with the arising of ignorance (avijjasamudaya): Here ignorance is a condition for the taint of sensual desire and the taint of being by way of decisive support, etc.; (it is a condition) for the taint of ignorance only by way of decisive support. And here the ignorance that arises subsequently should be understood as the taint of ignorance. The previously arisen ignorance itself becomes a decisive support condition for the subsequently arisen taint of ignorance. The rest by the aforesaid method. This section is stated by way of showing the condition for the ignorance which heads the factors of dependent arising. Stated thus, the undiscoverability (anamataggata) of any beginning of samsara is established. How? Because with the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance, and with the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. Thus the taints are a condition for ignorance, and ignorance is a condition for the taints. Having shown this, (it follows that) no first point of ignorance is manifest, and because none is manifest the undiscoverability of any beginning of samsara is proven.>> KO: As for kusala intentions, there is no such "latency". There are only asaya (inclinations) which could be kusala or akusala. But they are not like latency which condition the arising of defilements, rather they are like weighted average or inclinations (which is a good translation). These are few terms which I have yet clearly understand its role in the overall context of nama and rupa. Somehow there is a sense of discontinuity for kusala intentions which is unlike aksuala where there is latency. I am not sure of this and how does kusala has a contintuity. I suspect mostly on the universal cetasikas like sanna and kamma. Sanna in the sense of marking objects which is related to kusala and kamma which accumulates the volition of kusala and also co-ordinate the other cetasikas on the object. Things are never "lost" as this two cetasikas continue in the life mental continuum until PariNibbana. These are my personal opinions. Ken O #114742 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) ashkenn2k Dear Rob E and Phil Yes, it is important to do kusala things and avoid akusala things, but the reason for doing so is because of the experiential dhammas that correspond to such conceptual doings, not because anything is really done. By creating the conditions for kusala to arise, we will experience more and more of the truth of dhammas, and the understand more and more of the illusion of the conceptual world we seem to inhabit. I don't agree with all of the above, by the way, but I do think it's an accurate reflection of the radical commentarial interpretation of the Dhamma. And I think that is why any attention to the "mundane" aspect of the Dhamma as spoken by the Buddha -- refraining from akusala actions, for instance, will be out of accord with what you will hear from those who adhere to this interpretation. My view of the Dhamma includes understanding, intention, practice and right and wrong action. The dhammas-only interpretation only includes understanding and intention, along with the various mental factors that can be experienced by mind; no action and no objects as we refer to in the world. It reflects a very different understanding of the path. KO: Yes the interpretation by AS is not in accordance to the position of the commentaries. The commentaries explicitly stated that there are intentional actions, There are actions that cause monks of old to go to selcusion and do meditation or doing recitations of the 32 body parts. There are also virture and are action of virture like paying respect to senior monks and carrying out various duties like taking care of the sick. So Phil - dont get disheartented. That is why Buddhat taught two truth - conventional and ultimate for the benefit of beings as differet beings have different inclinations. Even in the utlimate teaching as in accordance to the Abhidhammas text, there are many examples of intentional actions. The best example is the recitation of the 32 body parts. There was never just nama and rupa for the path. So even actions like flying to Bangkok to listen to dhamma or gong to DSG to listen to dhamma are all intentional actions. If it is not intentional, why bother to go there. So dont be bother what people said that intentional actions are wrong because in the text there are plenty of them. Keep doing the right thing is to do kusala and to purify the mind Ken O #114743 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:53 am Subject: Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: He can't have taught both. There is only one way, and the Buddha either taught right understanding here and now, or he taught rite and ritual. Well, Ken, you have set up the terms of your polarized view above, in an either/or manner, in order to be able to knock it down without much thought. In other words, it is the same straw man you always employ to reassert your own view of things. The truth is that your two alternatives are not only framed by your own presuppositions, but are also *not* the only alternative possibilities to what the Buddha may have taught. In fact, the Buddha may have taught many things. In point of fact, what the Buddha himself *said* he taught was a four-fold truth and an eight-fold path. How is it that the Buddha's own four-fold truth and eight-fold path boils down to one truth and one path-element in your view? Buddha shows an organic process in which one factor supports the other and they grow together. You assert a unidirectional one-way path that only has one major element, "right understanding" which contains or causes everything else. I believe Buddha taught both "right understanding here and now," and also a gradual developmental path to that understanding. If he didn't, he would not have bothered with all the other teachings and steps that he employed to help people gradually move out of clinging and ignorance towards truth and an awakened state. There are obviously stages and elements that are not just "one thing" throughout the Buddha's program for awakening - there are 4 foundations of mindfulness, there are 7 enlightenment factors that build on each other, there are 8 elements of the path that support and develop each other, and many more building blocks and stepping stones along the way. "Right understanding here and now" is always good to remember, but never ever stands alone. That's why it's a path and not an instantaneous quick fix as you would like. I have pointed out to you a number of times that understanding the moment, seeing dhammas directly, seeing the actual moment with discernment, would not be possible merely by direct seeing, and that without bhavana -- development -- and accumulation of panna and other forms of kusala through the passing from one citta to the next, there would be no possibility of awakening to the moment as you propose. So while you say there is "only the moment" and that we live in a "one moment universe," you do not want to deal with the accumulation and passing from moment to moment of what is accumulated from citta to citta upon which any understanding of the moment depends. That is how it happens, that is what causes awakening, that is the path, not the moment by itself as it is in our current state of ignorance, which would never go away by itself. You have idealized the moment as you understand it and ignore the way the path actually works. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114744 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:12 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) epsteinrob Hi Nina. Thanks for the invitation to talk about this. I will try to question this from one angle, and then maybe after hearing your answer, I will bring up some other points as they occur. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > You touch on an essential point. I notice that these points come up > here on dsg all the time. You can help many others in bringing this > up. I shall try to contribute to clearing up some misunderstandings. > Op 23-apr-2011, om 21:10 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > My view of the Dhamma includes understanding, intention, practice > > and right and wrong action. The dhammas-only interpretation only > > includes understanding and intention, along with the various mental > > factors that can be experienced by mind; no action and no objects > > as we refer to in the world. It reflects a very different > > understanding of the path. > ------- > N: There 'seems' to be a contradiction between paramattha dhammas and > social interaction, between persons. > If we think of the six worlds that flash in and out it may help us to > see that there is no problem here. Like when seeing now, there is the > world of colours, and this does not last. Quite different from > hearing, when there is the world of sound. Thinking is conditioned > and then, when thinking arises, there is the world of thinking. One > can think of other beings with lobha, dosa or moha, or with mettaa > and karu.na. Thinking does not last, then there is seeing again, or > the experience of tangible object. This is what happens in practice, > and it occurs quite naturally. No need to speculate on what exists, > what does not exist, no need even to think: this is a concept, this > is a paramattha dhamma. > We learn to be aware of naama and ruupa but it is very natural that > there are in between many moments of thinking of people. As the > Buddha teaches: it is beneficial to think of them with mettaa and > karu.na. When we see the benefit of this, we can become 'an > understanding person' as Kh Sujin says. > These six worlds that change so quickly, yes, these are dhammas. > Thinking is conditioned and does not last, it is a dhamma. When you > say: dhammas-only interpretation, I would say: this thought does not > have to occur. > Perhaps it would be helpful if you bring forward a few points in > short, because I think this would help others. I do like the simplicity of understanding what you say above - that there is only one moment at a time, and that it can take place in any of the six "worlds" that give us nama, rupa and from which are derived concepts. I think it is easy to understand theoretically how nama and rupa behave. They come up one at a time and are either a non-sentient physical quality, a rupa, or a sentient quality or aspect of mind, a nama. What is more difficult to understand how in this constantly changing exchange of namas and rupas arising, a concept can come to exist, what is its nature, and how is it able to appear to last over time. What do the constantly shifting namas have to do in order to create the illusion of objects and people that extend through time and space? Without understanding how this takes place, how concepts arise or appear to arise, and how they are extended by citta over time, it is not possible to know even theoretically how the false illusory world of objects and people are constructed. It is also impossible to know how Buddha used such concepts in order to defeat the conceptual vision, like fighting fire with fire. So I would like to start by understanding how concepts work, and how citta is so fully tricked into perceiving a conceptual, conventional universe that isn't actually there. I would also like to ask in connection to this, what do you think Buddha was actually doing, what was his aim, and what did he want us to do with the information, when he said "do this, do that," "refrain from this, refrain from that," addressing aims, actions, objects and people that were really conceptual constructs and thus were ultimately illusory? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114745 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:36 am Subject: Re: How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Somehow there is a sense of discontinuity for kusala intentions which is > unlike aksuala where there is latency. I am not sure of this and how does > kusala has a contintuity. I suspect mostly on the universal cetasikas > like sanna and kamma. > > > Sanna in the sense of marking objects which is related to kusala and kamma which > accumulates the volition of kusala and also co-ordinate the other cetasikas on > the object. Things are never "lost" as this two cetasikas continue in the life > mental continuum until PariNibbana. These are my personal opinions. You were very helpful in answering exactly what I was asking about, and I think you very much for that. I will have to study the larger part of your answer a little longer to try to understand it better, but I am interested right now in the part about kusala. It seems that kusala does accumulate but not through latency. Do you think that is a correct way of thinking? If kusala accumulates by being marked by sanna I do not quite understand that, since sanna would remember it, but would that actually make the kusala "active?" I am not sure if I'm being clear, but maybe the question makes sense. If kusala is able to accumulate by one of these other mechanisms, without being accumulated as a latent tendency, it seems almost a similiar process by a different name or by a different means. If the volition of kusala is accumulated in order to develop more kusala, I would be interested in how that takes place. Perhaps you can clarify this, and the difference between the kusala accumulation and the akusala accumulation a little more, although I think it seems to be a complex topic. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114746 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: From my Vipassanaa letters. (I) epsteinrob Hi Ken O. [I am leaving Phil out of the header, as I think this discussion is driving him insane. :-) ] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E and Phil > > > Yes, it is important to do kusala things and avoid akusala things, but the > reason for doing so is because of the experiential dhammas that correspond to > such conceptual doings, not because anything is really done. By creating the > conditions for kusala to arise, we will experience more and more of the truth of > > dhammas, and the understand more and more of the illusion of the conceptual > world we seem to inhabit. > > I don't agree with all of the above, by the way, but I do think it's an accurate > > reflection of the radical commentarial interpretation of the Dhamma. And I think > > that is why any attention to the "mundane" aspect of the Dhamma as spoken by the > > Buddha -- refraining from akusala actions, for instance, will be out of accord > with what you will hear from those who adhere to this interpretation. My view of > > the Dhamma includes understanding, intention, practice and right and wrong > action. The dhammas-only interpretation only includes understanding and > intention, along with the various mental factors that can be experienced by > mind; no action and no objects as we refer to in the world. It reflects a very > different understanding of the path. > > > KO: Yes the interpretation by AS is not in accordance to the position of the > commentaries. The commentaries explicitly stated that there are > intentional actions, There are actions that cause monks of old to go to > selcusion and do meditation or doing recitations of the 32 body parts. There > are also virture and are action of virture like paying respect to senior monks > and carrying out various duties like taking care of the sick. > > So Phil - dont get disheartented. That is why Buddhat taught two truth - > conventional and ultimate for the benefit of beings as differet beings have > different inclinations. Even in the utlimate teaching as in accordance to the > Abhidhammas text, there are many examples of intentional actions. The best > example is the recitation of the 32 body parts. There was never just nama and > rupa for the path. > > > So even actions like flying to Bangkok to listen to dhamma or gong to DSG to > listen to dhamma are all intentional actions. If it is not intentional, why > bother to go there. So dont be bother what people said that intentional actions > are wrong because in the text there are plenty of them. Keep doing the right > thing is to do kusala and to purify the mind. Thank you very much for this response. I have not seen most of the commentaries myself so I appreciate you telling me that there are many references to intentional actions in the commentaries. That is good information to me. If you happen to come across a quote to this effect that will give a good example, I will appreciate it. In the meantime, I appreciate the clarification. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #114747 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:01 pm Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Dear Azita, (all) Yes very helpful answers. But i need some detailed explanation also cause I dont get all the answers. Is it possible to still pose some questions to Acharn when there is opportunity? p.s Today I drink 3 bears and smoke some cigarets. It looks like I' ve never learn that this is not good to drink.Could u ask Acharn what about drinking and dosa after that? How to give up drinking? Best wishes Lukas > > > "1. What's the characteristic of seeing? of hearing? etc. This seems like that > > > is a lot of stories after seeing. Shall we try to know seeing or visible object > > > now? Does considering thinking just as a mental phenomena-activity helps to > > > understand more?". > > > > azita: the characteristic of seeing - that which sees - nothing more, nothing less, jst that which sees. A. Sujin said jst learn to understand that which is ignored by ignorance > The same answer for the other doorways eg; hearing is that which hears. > > Trying to know seeing or visible object now - means there is a self trying to do something. A. Sujin's comment was 'just understand' > > does considering thinking jst as a mental phenomena-activity help to understand more - A.Sujin's comment "wanting a helper-always looking for a way to 'assist' understanding. > > Hoping these brief answers help Lukas. Right now I cannot concentrate as I am in an Internet place and all the people are using skype and there's about 6 languages being spoken - loudly - they seem to be competing with ea other. Its jst sound, I know, but I cant think. > > Patience, courage and good cheer > azita > #114748 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:57 pm Subject: Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, all, > KS: The more we understand about [how] one moment is life, just one >moment of citta, without that, there's no life..... So we think that >we live among people wanting to kill or do something, but actually >it's only thinking in darkness about people and things. No one at all. >Only the arising of citta - wholesome or unwholesome, depending on >conditions. It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? This goes down a very slippery slope... With best wishes, Alex #114749 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:57 pm Subject: The 7 Links! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 7 Links to Awakening? 1: Awareness is a link to Awakening (sati-sambojjhanga). 2: Investigation of the states is a link to Awakening (vicaya-sambojjhanga). 3: Energy is a link to Awakening (viriya-sambojjhanga). 4: Joy is a link to Awakening (pďż˝ti-sambojjhanga). 5: Tranquillity is a link to Awakening (passaddhi-sambojjhanga). 6: Concentration is a link to Awakening (samďż˝dhi-sambojjhanga). 7: Equanimity is a link to Awakening (upekkhďż˝-sambojjhanga). These are the seven links leading to final mental Enlightenment... Those whose minds are well-developed in these 7 factors of self-awakening, who delight in non-clinging, who relinquish all grasping, whose minds are all around luminous, whose mental fermentations are all stilled; They, even while still in this world, are all unbound right here! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samďż˝hita _/\_ * <...> #114750 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:39 pm Subject: Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina, all, > > > KS: The more we understand about [how] one moment is life, just one >moment of citta, without that, there's no life..... So we think that >we live among people wanting to kill or do something, but actually >it's only thinking in darkness about people and things. No one at all. >Only the arising of citta - wholesome or unwholesome, depending on >conditions. > > It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? > > This goes down a very slippery slope... Just to take the "dhammas only" side for a moment, the saving grace of this view is that killing someone still represents the most horrifically akusala citta, even if there is no one to be killed. The fact that one desires to kill someone represents intention/volition of such a deluded nature that it causes the worst possible vipaka. "Kamma patha" that allows one to "complete the action" is experienced as satisfying the akusala intention and thus creating akusala with no holding back. If one were to stop from killing after experiencing a murderous intention, then the kamma is not as bad, because the intention is not as strong. Imagine two cases - in one case a murderous feeling arises and at the moment of action the person relents and realizes that this is wrong and stops. In the other case, the person completes the murder and experiences "evil satisfaction" at getting their revenge. It is obvious that the second is not only a much worse action, but also represents a much more unwholesome intention, with resultant very unpleasant vipaka. Whether or not one agrees with the above model of reality, we can understand that it would cause one to refrain from akusala activity, and beyond that, to see akusala intention as the real culprit. Unlike the ordinary person who thinks they will only be punished for evil deeds, the person who sees these negative intentions arise and believes that kamma is intention will see these intentions as very dangerous to their well-being, even if the action is never performed. That person will guard their thoughts and intentions with mindfulness in a way that would not occur to the ordinary person. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114751 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:47 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Alex, -------- <. . .> >> KH: I think you are giving answer 4 in the case of cars and physical objects. That is, they are 'neither reborn nor not be reborn.' > A: Your question is incorrectly put. Cars & physical objects do not die like living beings. So what happens after death is inapplicable to inanimate physical objects. -------- KH: I take your point; they can neither die nor not die. But I don't know why you wouldn't also say they can neither be reborn nor not reborn. ------------------- >KH:Is that the answer the Buddha gave? Or did he answer with an explanation of dependent origination? > A: Only when it comes to rebirth of sentient beings does D.O apply. ------------------- KH: But what if there were ultimately no sentient beings? In that case the question could equally have been about inanimate beings or fictional beings or motor cars . . . or anything. And the answer would have been the same: in ultimate reality there are dependently arisen dhammas. ------------------------ >KH:Once again, I think you are diverging from the answer the Buddha gave. Rebirth is just a dependently arisen dhamma. There is no sentient being that is reborn. > A: The dependently arisen dhamma of rebirth applies only to sentient beings with craving. ------------------------ KH: Craving is besides the point, but I can't help wondering what you are suggesting. The first link in DO is ignorance, not craving. In any case DO does not apply to sentient beings of any kind, it applies to only to conditioned reality. Ken H #114752 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:47 pm Subject: Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 epsteinrob Hi Ken O. After reading the following statement of yours: "The next few days, if I got time, I will type out the commentary text talking about why there is kamma in killing even though dhamma is momentary" I wanted to direct you to this post of mine, below, and ask you what you think of my explanation of kamma as intention, and kamma patha as the most fully developed intention. [I am pretty much parroting what I have gotten from the advanced crew here, at least as I understand it...] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Alex. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, Nina, all, > > > > > KS: The more we understand about [how] one moment is life, just one >moment of citta, without that, there's no life..... So we think that >we live among people wanting to kill or do something, but actually >it's only thinking in darkness about people and things. No one at all. >Only the arising of citta - wholesome or unwholesome, depending on >conditions. > > > > It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? > > > > This goes down a very slippery slope... > > Just to take the "dhammas only" side for a moment, the saving grace of this view is that killing someone still represents the most horrifically akusala citta, even if there is no one to be killed. The fact that one desires to kill someone represents intention/volition of such a deluded nature that it causes the worst possible vipaka. "Kamma patha" that allows one to "complete the action" is experienced as satisfying the akusala intention and thus creating akusala with no holding back. If one were to stop from killing after experiencing a murderous intention, then the kamma is not as bad, because the intention is not as strong. > > Imagine two cases - in one case a murderous feeling arises and at the moment of action the person relents and realizes that this is wrong and stops. In the other case, the person completes the murder and experiences "evil satisfaction" at getting their revenge. It is obvious that the second is not only a much worse action, but also represents a much more unwholesome intention, with resultant very unpleasant vipaka. > > Whether or not one agrees with the above model of reality, we can understand that it would cause one to refrain from akusala activity, and beyond that, to see akusala intention as the real culprit. Unlike the ordinary person who thinks they will only be punished for evil deeds, the person who sees these negative intentions arise and believes that kamma is intention will see these intentions as very dangerous to their well-being, even if the action is never performed. > > That person will guard their thoughts and intentions with mindfulness in a way that would not occur to the ordinary person. > = = = = = = = = = Ken, I look forward to whatever you type out of the commentary on this issue. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #114753 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:48 pm Subject: Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 rjkjp1 Dear Alex This is an old post from Scott http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69825 robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina, all, > > > KS: The more we understand about [how] one moment is life, just one >moment of citta, without that, there's no life..... So we think that >we live among people wanting to kill or do something, but actually >it's only thinking in darkness about people and things. No one at all. >Only the arising of citta - wholesome or unwholesome, depending on >conditions. > > It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? > > This goes down a very slippery slope... > > With best wishes, > > Alex > #114754 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:55 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > In any case DO does not apply to sentient beings of any kind, it applies to only to conditioned reality. I think you are making a mistake here - DO does not apply to a "conditioned reality" outside of experience, ie "sentient beings." It applies only to "conditioned cittas," in other words to experiential dhammas. Unless you are saying there is a dependently arisen reality outside of consciousness. Are you? Does hardness or color occur in its own right, or only for the appropriate citta which accesses them through the sense doors? It is in that sense that Alex is saying that DO only applies to sentient beings. In your terms you would say, I think, that DO only applies to cittas. It is only within experience, that is, sentience, that DO, kamma, vipaka, kusala and akusala take place. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114755 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 25-apr-2011, om 2:57 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from > conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an > ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill > anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a > person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do > with the killer? -------- N: No, all this is not according to reality. We all can think of people with kusala citta or with akusala citta. When we have mettaa, we think of someone with kusala citta. When there is anger, we think of someone with akusala citta. The anger or aversion may be so strong that a person commits akusala kamma through body or speech. That kamma can produce result for the one who commits it later on. When the lifespan of an individual comes to an end it is due to 'his' kamma. As to a killer, here we have to consider 'his' deed that will bring an unhappy result for him. ------ Nina. #114756 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 24-apr-2011, om 17:55 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > KO: I would like to see the pali text please or the text reference > as in PTS so > that I could search it it CSCD. I am quite interested in asaya and > adhimutti > and tempermants and inclinations. Could you give the pali word for > temperaments > and inclincations as I like to investigate more. -------- N: I am so sorry that I do not have time to give you the Pali of Patisambidhamagga, or more Pali that i gave already in my last post. Perhaps someone else can help. ------- > > The accumulation you are saying is just asaya that accumlates and > not citta that > > accumulates. ------- N: As explained: accumulayion as activity during javana (citta and cetasikas), and accumulation in the sense of: having been accumulated and present in each citta. ------- > We have to be clear on the function of each dhamma and not > infering. Just like anusayas are in kusala, aksuala and vipaka > cittas, does > that mean the all kusala citta should be aksuala since latency is > only aksuala. ------ N:Not at all, it is not active, it is a latent tendency but it can condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity. Thanks for your added texts on asaya. Nina. > #114757 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Nina the accumulationin the javana process is not stated in the commentary, and what accumulates at that stage is not citta is the cetasikas especially kamma if you think there is, please provide the textual support and not saying reading from the text. Because the text i have read, have yet supported that citta accumulates, in fact not evern once Ken O > >From: Nina van Gorkom >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Monday, 25 April 2011 15:47:45 >Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated > > >Dear Ken O, >Op 24-apr-2011, om 17:55 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > >> KO: I would like to see the pali text please or the text reference >> as in PTS so >> that I could search it it CSCD. I am quite interested in asaya and >> adhimutti >> and tempermants and inclinations. Could you give the pali word for >> temperaments >> and inclincations as I like to investigate more. >-------- >N: I am so sorry that I do not have time to give you the Pali of >Patisambidhamagga, or more Pali that i gave already in my last post. >Perhaps someone else can help. >------- >> >> The accumulation you are saying is just asaya that accumlates and >> not citta that >> >> accumulates. >------- >N: As explained: accumulayion as activity during javana (citta and >cetasikas), and accumulation in the sense of: having been accumulated >and present in each citta. >------- >> We have to be clear on the function of each dhamma and not >> infering. Just like anusayas are in kusala, aksuala and vipaka >> cittas, does >> that mean the all kusala citta should be aksuala since latency is >> only aksuala. >------ >N:Not at all, it is not active, it is a latent tendency but it can >condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity. >Thanks for your added texts on asaya. >Nina. >> > > #114758 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:37 am Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) ptaus1 Hi KenO and Sarah, pt: Thanks for coming back to this KenO. Sorry if you and Sarah have already discussed this, I'm about a 1000 posts behind in keeping up with the new posts (nowadays I only got time to skim through to check if anyone's asking about technical issues, which is how this post of yours caught my eye). > KenO: Also on another topic about the wisdom of Bodhisattava and the limit of their > development wisdom > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html#fn-25 > > A treatise of paramis > The wisdom born of meditation may be divided into two groups. ... > The second comprises > the five purification â€" purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, > purification by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path, > purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge > and vision. The first four of these are mundane, the last is supramundane. ... > But here, because it is > intended for the great bodhisattvas, it should be explained making compassion > and skillful means the forerunners. One further distinction must also be made: > here insight (vipassanaa) should be developed only as far as purification by > knowledge and vision of the way, without attaining purification by knowledge and > vision.[25]>> > > 25. Purification by knowledge and vision is the supramundane wisdom of the four > noble paths. Because this purification issues in the realisation of nibbaana, > the bodhisattva-aspirant must stop short of this attainment so that his > realisation of nibbaana will coincide with his perfect enlightenment. pt: So, do I understand correctly here that the commentary is saying that a bodhisattva will develop insight along the insight knowledges framework but will stop short of the last stage of purification by knowledge and vision amd will not go there until the very last life? I ask becuase I think the consensus here previously was that a bodhisattva will not develop along any insight knowledges at all until the very last life when they will all happen. Thanks. Best wishes pt #114759 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:56 am Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Alex, ----- <. . .> >> KH: In any case DO does not apply to sentient beings of any kind, it applies to only to conditioned reality. > RE: I think you are making a mistake here - ----- KH: I made a typo, but that's not what you mean, is it? :-) --------------------- > RE: DO does not apply to a "conditioned reality" outside of experience, ie "sentient beings." It applies only to "conditioned cittas," in other words to experiential dhammas. --------------------- KH: It applies to cittas, cetasikas and kamma-produced rupas. I don't know if it applies to external rupas, but I tend to agree with you; it does seem to apply exclusively to the five khandhas (AKA sentient beings). ---------------------------- > RE: Unless you are saying there is a dependently arisen reality outside of consciousness. Are you? Does hardness or color occur in its own right, or only for the appropriate citta which accesses them through the sense doors? ---------------------------- KH: Unobserved rupas are occurring all the time. Each experienced rupa arises in a kalapa of rupas, the rest of which are never experienced. Apart from that I am not sure. I am not sure if there are other kalapas that go completely unexperienced. I need to do more homework! ------------------------------------------- > RE: It is in that sense that Alex is saying that DO only applies to sentient beings. ------------------------------------------- KH: If, by sentient beings, he means the five khandhas he is probably right. I think that might be all DO refers to. ----------------- > RE: In your terms you would say, I think, that DO only applies to cittas. It is only within experience, that is, sentience, that DO, kamma, vipaka, kusala and akusala take place. ------------------ KH: The point I have been trying to make to Alex is that there are only namas and rupas. There are no cars, trees or sentient beings. Therefore, when we ask if *any* of those concepts ultimately exist (or are reborn etc) the only way to answer is with an explanation of namas and rupas. Ken H #114760 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) ashkenn2k Dear pt >> >> 25. Purification by knowledge and vision is the supramundane wisdom of the four >> >> >> noble paths. Because this purification issues in the realisation of nibbaana, >> the bodhisattva-aspirant must stop short of this attainment so that his >> realisation of nibbaana will coincide with his perfect enlightenment. > >pt: So, do I understand correctly here that the commentary is saying that a >bodhisattva will develop insight along the insight knowledges framework but will > >stop short of the last stage of purification by knowledge and vision amd will >not go there until the very last life? I ask becuase I think the consensus here >previously was that a bodhisattva will not develop along any insight knowledges >at all until the very last life when they will all happen. Thanks KO: the consensus is wrong, the commentary is correct. For the bodhisattva, there could be development of insight of nama and rupa till before the purification of knowledge and vision. I have also written to you on sati and when is the object of a citta is being experience, all I thnk also under the same title Ken O #114761 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK Marc... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Alex, Scott, Sarah, Nina, and all) - In a message dated 4/25/2011 1:49:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Alex This is an old post from Scott http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69825 robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina, all, > > > KS: The more we understand about [how] one moment is life, just one >moment of citta, without that, there's no life..... So we think that >we live among people wanting to kill or do something, but actually >it's only thinking in darkness about people and things. No one at all. >Only the arising of citta - wholesome or unwholesome, depending on >conditions. > > It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? > > This goes down a very slippery slope... > > With best wishes, > > Alex > ============================ I find myself thinking of a person who might say that a factory is a single machine, or an automobile is just the engine, or a tree is a single leaf. Such a perspective, it seems to me, ignores the essential interdependence of phenomena. There is a sense, I believe should be pointed to, in which a single leaf-of-a-tree *is* that tree, for the tree, as that tree, fully depends on that leaf as much as that leaf, as leaf, depends on the tree. It seems to me that the "one-citta view" tends towards a perspective of stasis and independence rather than anicca and anatta. Though distinguishability of phenomena is a fact, conditionality implies variation, change, emptiness, interdependence and inseparability. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114762 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:43 am Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: The point I have been trying to make to Alex is that there are only namas and rupas. There are no cars, trees or sentient beings. Therefore, when we ask if *any* of those concepts ultimately exist (or are reborn etc) the only way to answer is with an explanation of namas and rupas. Carry on! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114763 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 ashkenn2k Dear Rob E this the commentary on the killing The All Embracing Net of Views and its commentaries, B Bodhi page 113 <> Ken O > > >Hi Ken O. >After reading the following statement of yours: > >"The next few days, if I got time, I will type out the >commentary text talking about why there is kamma in killing >even though dhamma is momentary" > >I wanted to direct you to this post of mine, below, and ask you what you think >of my explanation of kamma as intention, and kamma patha as the most fully >developed intention. [I am pretty much parroting what I have gotten from the >advanced crew here, at least as I understand it...] > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >> >> Hi Alex. >> >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" >>wrote: >> > >> > Dear Sarah, Nina, all, >> > >> > > KS: The more we understand about [how] one moment is life, just one >moment >> >>of citta, without that, there's no life..... So we think that >we live among >>people wanting to kill or do something, but actually >it's only thinking in >>darkness about people and things. No one at all. >Only the arising of citta - >>wholesome or unwholesome, depending on >conditions. >> > >> > It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from >>conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is >>this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't >>believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her >>vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? >> > >> > This goes down a very slippery slope... >> >> Just to take the "dhammas only" side for a moment, the saving grace of this >>view is that killing someone still represents the most horrifically akusala >>citta, even if there is no one to be killed. The fact that one desires to kill >>someone represents intention/volition of such a deluded nature that it causes >>the worst possible vipaka. "Kamma patha" that allows one to "complete the >>action" is experienced as satisfying the akusala intention and thus creating >>akusala with no holding back. If one were to stop from killing after >>experiencing a murderous intention, then the kamma is not as bad, because the >>intention is not as strong. >> >> Imagine two cases - in one case a murderous feeling arises and at the moment of >> >>action the person relents and realizes that this is wrong and stops. In the >>other case, the person completes the murder and experiences "evil satisfaction" > >>at getting their revenge. It is obvious that the second is not only a much worse >> >>action, but also represents a much more unwholesome intention, with resultant >>very unpleasant vipaka. >> >> Whether or not one agrees with the above model of reality, we can understand >>that it would cause one to refrain from akusala activity, and beyond that, to >>see akusala intention as the real culprit. Unlike the ordinary person who thinks >> >>they will only be punished for evil deeds, the person who sees these negative >>intentions arise and believes that kamma is intention will see these intentions > >>as very dangerous to their well-being, even if the action is never performed. >> >> That person will guard their thoughts and intentions with mindfulness in a way > >>that would not occur to the ordinary person. > >> = = = = = = = = = > >Ken, I look forward to whatever you type out of the commentary on this issue. > >Best, >Robert E. > >= = = = = = > #114764 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:15 am Subject: Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > this the commentary on the killing > > The All Embracing Net of Views and its commentaries, B Bodhi page 113 > < to moemnt, who kills and who is killed? If it is said that the continuum of > consciousness and its concomitants kills and is killed, this answer has to be > rejected. For such a continuum is immaterial, that because it is immaterial it > is incapable of inflicting any harm by cutting, breaking, etc nor can it harmed > itself. If it is said that "killing" and "being killed" apply to material > continuum, this alternative too must be rejected. Fro the material continuum is > deviod of consciousness, like a block of wood, and so the destruction of life by > cutting etc, can no more apply to the body than to a lifeless corpse. > > Again the means of destroying life, such as striking a blow etc., must apply > to formations either in the past, the future, or the present. But it impossible > that the means could apply to past or future formations, since those do not > exist (at the time the blow is struck). In the case of present formations, any > application of the means would be useless. For the present formations, due to > the momentary nature, are subject to complete cessation anyway, and hence are > already heading towards their own destruction by themselves. Since therefore, > their destruction occurs without any extraneous cause (but follows from their > nature) death would not be caused by the striking of blows or by other means. > Because the formations are deviod of personal initiative (nirihaka), to whom do > the means of killing belong? And who should be bound by the kamma of destroying > life if, due to momentariness, the intention of killing breaks up at the very > same time it arise, and does not last up to the time of the act's completion? > > Reply: The "killer" is the asemblage of formations conventionally called a > "being", containing the aforementioned of formations volition of killing. That > which is "is killed" by him is the aggregation of material and immaterial > dhammas that would have been capable of arising (in continued sucession) if > the aforemonetioned means killing had not been applied, but which now conitnues > as a bare procession (of material dhammas) conventionally termed "dead", > deprived of vital warmth, consciousness, and the life faculty due to the > application of the means of killing by the killer. Or else (that which "is > killed" may be defined as) the continuum of consciousness and its concomitants > alone. Although the mental continuum does not itself form the actual object of > the maens of killing (since the victim's body is the object), still the notion > of life-destruction remains valid (even with this definition). For in the five > constituent existence, the mental continuum occurs in dependence upon the > material continuum; so when an enemy applies the means of cutting off the > life-facult to the material continuum in such a way that the successive arising > of the vital material states linked up with and supporting the correlative > mental continuum is impaired, then the disruption (of the mental continuum) > takes place (and the being is said to be killed). Again the destruction of life > is not without specific cause, nor is the application of the means of killing > useless. Death is not without a specifice cause: (1) because if the means > killing are applied to the present formations, the aggregation of formations due > to arise in immediate succession to them will not arise; (2) because in the > present context it is not the "momentary death" of the momentary formations that > is intended by the designation "death"; and (3) beacuse the death of the > life-continuity (which is meant here) does occur through specific causes, as > explained above. Therefore, death is no causeless. Nor are the means of > destroying life void of agency (katturahita). Though formations lack personal > initiative, nevertheless, the conventional designation of agency is applicable > to causes that are effective through their contiguity and are fixed in their > capacity to give results adequate to themselves, just as in the statements "the > lamp illumates" and "the moon brings in the night" (agency is ascribed to the > lamp and to the moon) > > The act of destroying life must be recognized to pertain not only to the > aggregation of consciousness and mental concomitants existing simultaneously > with the intention of killing, but must also be admitted to apply to the (entire > sequence of state) that ensures by way of (the unity and individuality of) the > continuum. Just as the accomplishment of activity is seen in the cause of > lamps, etc, which likewise exist by way of continuity, so too there certainly > does exist one who is bound by the kamma of destroying life. > > The same method of investigation may, with due alterations, be applied in > the case of taking what is not given, etc as well.>> > > Ken O Thank you for this description. It seems that this explanation does acknowledge both the intention and the action, as well as the body of the person who is killed. While it does not assign agency to a "person" and shows how no such agency can exist, it does admit agency to the mental and physical forces that cause the action, as well as the intention. Do you think I have interpreted this passage correctly? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114765 From: Vince Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 cerovzt@... Dear Sarah, you wrote: > KS: Can a sotapanna kill anyone? > Phil: The ability to kill anyone is not there anymore for a sotapanna. > KS: Because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as not self. > Sarah: No idea of a being [existing]. "understanding of nature of beings" is not the same thing of "no idea of a being existed". Buddha taught when there is not more idea of being (atta) it is the case of somebody abiding in release: this is the only case of arhants. I wonder if there is a confussion between eradication of "idea" instead "belief". I.e: when we say "the sotappana has eradicated the idea of a being" --instead-- "the sotappana has eradicated the belief in the idea of a being". Difference is so great that it changes completely the sense. We talk about different eradicated fetters. Only by the eradication of all fetters then one can abide permanently without the idea of a being ("I, me, mine"). I fear K.S talks about keeping awareness in the present moment, then in that same moment the killing is not possible. As the sotapanna knows the difference with delusion, it would happen *in that moment*. However, it doesn't mean the sotapanna abides in this awareness all the time. In fact, he/she cannot do it because attachments, and for this same reason we talk about sotapannas instead arhants. Perhaps somebody can ask to Sujin if a sotapanna cannot kill any being (even a mosquito?) when there is absence of awareness in the present moment and there is arising of the attachments existing in sotapanna (anger, lust,etc..). And why. In the Sarakaani Sutta(SN 55.24) there is a relation of stream-winners taught by Buddha. Only arhants are abiding in release: --- [At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: "A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!" [Mahaanaama the Sakyan reported this to the Buddha who said:] "Mahaanaama, a lay-follower who has for a long time taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha - how could he go to states of woe? [And this can be truly said of Sarakaani the Sakyan.] How could he go to states of woe? *** RELEASED THROUGH WISDOM AND ABIDES IN IT *** "Mahaanaama, take the case of a man endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, declaring 'He is the Blessed One...,'[1] the Dhamma... the Sangha... He is joyous and swift in wisdom, one who has gained release.[2] By the destruction of the cankers he has by his own realization gained the cankerless heart's release, the release through wisdom, in this very life, and abides in it. The man is entirely released from the hell-state, from rebirth as an animal,[3] he is free from the realm of hungry ghosts, fully freed from the downfall, the evil way, from states of woe. *** NOT RELEASED: SWIFT IN WISDOM, 5 FETTERS DESTROYED *** "Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha... the Dhamma... the Sangha... he is joyous and swift in wisdom but has not gained release. Having destroyed the five lower fetters,[4] he is reborn spontaneously[5] where he will attain Nibbaana without returning from that world. That man is entirely released from... states of woe. *** NOT RELEASED: 3 FETTERS DESTROYED, OTHER FETTERS WEAKENED *** "Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters[6] and weakening lust, hatred and delusion, he is a Once-returner, who will return once more to this world and put an end to suffering. That man is entirely freed from... states of woe. *** NOT RELEASED: 3 FETTERS DESTROYED *** "Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters he is a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. That man is entirely freed... from states of woe. *** NOT RELEASED: APPROVES TATHAGATA TEACHINGS WITH MODERATE INSIGHT *** "Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately approved by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe. *** NOT RELEASED: FAITH AND AFFECTION FOR TATHAGATA *** "Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.[7] "Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'[8] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html -------------- Vince. #114766 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:07 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, >KH: I take your point; they can neither die nor not die. But I >don't >know why you wouldn't also say they can neither be reborn nor >not >reborn. You are mixing up sentient beings with non-sentient objects. Rebirth or death, applies only to sentient beings. Cars don't die. They can fall apart, break down, disintegrate, etc. >KH: But what if there were ultimately no sentient beings? Stress the word "ultimately". In which world do we EXPERIENTIALLY live? If there were no sentient beings, it would be impossible to run over one, and then be dragged by others (cops) into a huge building that has many of them. What matters is experiential truth, not abstract one that is irrelevant to daily life. Even the Buddha didn't teach that Self doesn't exist at all. It is a wrong reflection to consider "There is no Self" (MN2), and it side with anihhilationism (SN 44.10) . With best wishes, Alex #114767 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:33 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, > KH: The point I have been trying to make to Alex is that there are >only namas and rupas. There are no cars, trees or sentient beings. >Therefore, when we ask if *any* of those concepts ultimately exist >(or >are reborn etc) the only way to answer is with an explanation >of >namas >and rupas. If cars and trees do not really exist, why not try to drive into the tree at 100 mph? After all, they don't exist. :) This kind of speculation about ontological non-existence simply is not relevant to the actual experience, and the Buddha probably didn't teach it either. Emptiness, IMHO, is emptiness from nicca, sukha, Atta. It is not some new-age teaching of solid things not existing. By seeing emptiness from nicca, sukha, Atta - it is possible to develop nibbida, viraga and eventually make all clinging cease. So such teaching is practical, and it isn't refuted by experience. With best wishes, Alex #114768 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) ptaus1 Hi KenO, Thanks for your reply. > KO: the consensus is wrong, the commentary is correct. For the bodhisattva, > there could be development of insight of nama and rupa till before the > purification of knowledge and vision. I have also written to you on sati and > when is the object of a citta is being experience, all I thnk also under the > same title pt: Yes, I've read through that one as well. Thanks for getting all the quotes together, it must have taken some time. Appreciated. Best wishes pt #114769 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:55 pm Subject: Curiosity Feeds Understanding! bhikkhu5 Friends: Investigation is a Link to Awakening! The Investigation of states Link to Awakening (dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga) is basically the same mental property (pañña-cetasika), that understands everything and which also is inherently included in the: The Understanding feet of force (vimamsiddhipÄda) The Ability of Understanding (paññindriya) The Power of Understanding (paññabala) The Right View Path Factor (sammÄ-ditthi-magganga) It can be trained, developed & refined to a degree that fully enlightens! If one single quality should be pointed out as thee cause of Awakening, then it is this Investigation of states Link to Awakening that enlightens! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (Äsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the investigation of states link to awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any fermentation, nor any fever, nor discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] Remaining thus aware , then he examines, analyzes, & comes to understand that quality with penetrating insight. While thus aware , exploring into, examining, analyzing, and coming to full intuitive comprehension, then this investigation of states link to awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] The ability of investigation of states is to examine, scrutinize and analyze any chosen object and when this ability is unshakable and unfailing, it then becomes the power of investigation of phenomena! By thorough and eager investigation one understands that all things are caused and conditioned and as such only are compounded constructions, that pass through the inconceivably rapid moments (~10-43 sec.) of arising, presence, & ceasing! Remaining neither the 'same', nor 'stable' for two consecutive moments... Comprehending this universal flux gradually disables craving and clinging... Therefore do not trust anything (especially not 'your-self'!) blindly..., but keep on examining and question what is doubtful and not quite clear. Don't jump into any premature conclusion, before having examined it again! The Investigation of states Link to awakening is the sword, that cuts right through the jungle of views to real seeing, understanding and true knowing! Investigation is found in the last five (III-VII) of these 7 Purifications: I: Purification of morality (sÄ"la-visuddhii) II: Purification of mind (citta-visuddhi) III: Purification of view (ditthi-visuddhi) IV: Purification by overcoming doubt (kankhÄ-vitarana-visuddhi) V: Purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and not-path VI: Purification by knowledge and vision of progress on the path. VII: Purification of knowledge and vision (ñÄnadassana-visuddhi). Investigation is inherent in these 3 Comprehending Contemplations: Contemplation of Impermanence (aniccÄnupassanÄ) Contemplation of Suffering (dukkhÄnupassanÄ) Contemplation of Impersonality (anattÄnupassanÄ ) Investigation leads to the 9 kinds of real Insight-Knowledge : 1. Contemplation of Arising and Ceasing (udayabbayÄnupassanÄ-ñÄna) 2. Contemplation of Instant Dissolution (bhangÄnupassanÄ-ñÄna) 3. Contemplation of Appearance as Terror (bhayatĹ"patthÄnÄ-ñÄna) 4. Contemplation of Danger (ÄdÄ"navÄnupassanÄ-ñÄna) 5. Contemplation of Disgust (nibbidÄnupassanÄ-ñÄna) 6. The Desire for mental Release (muccitu-kamyatÄ-ñÄna) 7. Reflecting and repelling contemplation (patisankhÄnupassanÄ-ñÄna) 8. Equanimity regarding all constructions (sankhÄrupekkhÄ-ñÄna) 9. Adaptation confirming to the absolute truth (saccÄnulomika-ñÄna). Further inspirations on this probing quality of Investigation of states: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Investigation.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Because_of_Not_Examining.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <....> #114770 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Rob E these are just my personal opinions please dont take it as authorative until I could find more information from the texts. The interpretation of accumulation by DSGer is basing on inference that like asaya or anusaya or the other cetasikas like panna etc. But the text especially in Expositor never write citta accumulates rather when accumulation is stated, it is usually kamma. There are other times where they said the accumulation of merits and skillfullness. Merits is usually refer to kamma while skillfulness usually refer to kusala cetasikas. Kamma is the one that determines the next rebirth citta. So if we are borned in hell world, there is no panna. Then how does panna continues after that hell. So when we born in human again, panna has an opporunity to arise again depending on our accumulations (kamma). But kamma is just unpredictable and is not a determiner. So a person who do not have any root of panna but when listening to a dhamma teacher, he or she could have a arise joy in the words and may not understand the meaning at all. This accumulation (kamma) of joy will in future may induce more joy in learning dhamma and develop understanding in subsequent life. Likewise for akusala which work opposite way. One would ask, though we have so many ignorance happended everyday and why a very tiny development of panna had a much stronger effect than ignornace. In Questions of King Mlinda, Nagasena on the question of virtue stronger than vice. Nagasena said to the ing "Vice, O king by means of its meanness, dies quickly. But virture, by reason of its grandeur takes a long time to die." After discussin a few more times, I am of the opinin that the accumulation of kamma provide the opportunity of panna to arise due to previous cause of kamma associating with the development of panna like joy listening to dhamma talk though one may not understand its meaning. Kamma do not accumulate panna, they accumulates the volition that associate with panna In my opinion, panna don't accumulate, rather it is increase or decrease. Anyway accumulation has no strict definition as in the commentary though it usually use for kamma, so it depends on the context and how one see it :-) Ken O > >You were very helpful in answering exactly what I was asking about, and I think >you very much for that. I will have to study the larger part of your answer a >little longer to try to understand it better, but I am interested right now in >the part about kusala. It seems that kusala does accumulate but not through >latency. Do you think that is a correct way of thinking? If kusala accumulates >by being marked by sanna I do not quite understand that, since sanna would >remember it, but would that actually make the kusala "active?" I am not sure if >I'm being clear, but maybe the question makes sense. > > >If kusala is able to accumulate by one of these other mechanisms, without being >accumulated as a latent tendency, it seems almost a similiar process by a >different name or by a different means. If the volition of kusala is accumulated > >in order to develop more kusala, I would be interested in how that takes place. >Perhaps you can clarify this, and the difference between the kusala accumulation > >and the akusala accumulation a little more, although I think it seems to be a >complex topic. > >Best, >Robert E. > >= = = = = = = > > #114771 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) ashkenn2k Dear pt I am glad that you read it because I want to point out that mindfullness is not just simply awareness. One thing I am not very clear that the commentary also point mindfullness as rememberance where sanna is marking of an object. So I am thinking these are two distinct function, sanna is like a memory while mindfullness is recall of the memory. I am in the opinion, mindfullness only remembers the kusala as in the text forgetfullness is always used in place as opposite of mindfulness. So only when one forget kusala, then aksuala will arise,  in this way the understaniding of mindfulness will be easier to explain. And not because there is awareness or not, awareness can be knowing, that could be citta and that could be askuala citta, one is aware of one is doing something mean. Just my personal views, cheers Ken O > >Hi KenO, > >Thanks for your reply. > >> KO: the consensus is wrong, the commentary is correct. For the bodhisattva, >> there could be development of insight of nama and rupa till before the >> purification of knowledge and vision. I have also written to you on sati and >> when is the object of a citta is being experience, all I thnk also under the >> same title > >pt: Yes, I've read through that one as well. Thanks for getting all the quotes >together, it must have taken some time. Appreciated. > >Best wishes >pt > > > #114772 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > these are just my personal opinions please dont take it as authorative until I > could find more information from the texts. > > > The interpretation of accumulation by DSGer is basing on inference that like > asaya or anusaya or the other cetasikas like panna etc. But the text especially > in Expositor never write citta accumulates rather when accumulation is stated, > it is usually kamma. There are other times where they said the accumulation of > merits and skillfullness. Merits is usually refer to kamma while skillfulness > usually refer to kusala cetasikas. > > > Kamma is the one that determines the next rebirth citta. So if we are borned in > hell world, there is no panna. Then how does panna continues after that hell. > So when we born in human again, panna has an opporunity to arise again depending > on our accumulations (kamma). But kamma is just unpredictable and is not a > determiner. So a person who do not have any root of panna but when listening to > a dhamma teacher, he or she could have a arise joy in the words and may not > understand the meaning at all. This accumulation (kamma) of joy will in future > may induce more joy in learning dhamma and develop understanding in subsequent > life. Likewise for akusala which work opposite way. One would ask, though we > have so many ignorance happended everyday and why a very tiny development of > panna had a much stronger effect than ignornace. In Questions of King Mlinda, > Nagasena on the question of virtue stronger than vice. Nagasena said to the > ing "Vice, O king by means of its meanness, dies quickly. But virture, by > reason of its grandeur takes a long time to die." > > > After discussin a few more times, I am of the opinin that the accumulation of > kamma provide the opportunity of panna to arise due to previous cause of kamma > associating with the development of panna like joy listening to dhamma talk > though one may not understand its meaning. Kamma do not accumulate panna, they > accumulates the volition that associate with panna In my opinion, panna don't > accumulate, rather it is increase or decrease. Anyway accumulation has no > strict definition as in the commentary though it usually use for kamma, so it > depends on the context and how one see it :-) Thanks for this explanation. I can see this is a difficult and technical area, and I think it's a little beyond me at present to understand it very well. But I appreciate the chance to see this and have a chance to think about it. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114773 From: "paccayas" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:45 am Subject: Giving my backgrounds paccayas Hello all, My name is Adam. I am from Poland, 20 years old right now. I am interesting in Dhamma for not a long time. My cousin Lukas is an intermediate buddhist (I think so :-) ) He introduced me to buddhism and Buddha teachings. I have some major problems with addiction to opiates. I cannot handle that and I really don't know how to handle that. Is it bad? How can I give it up? I have remorse about my situation, and my addictions strongly influences my life. So I can't live normally. I don't think that psychiatric doctor (shrink) can help me. I have problems with self-assessment etc. Also, I am depressed and I am thinking almost all the time about drugs. It's my only solution for a problem of loneliness and to be happy. When I am on high thing looks good - everything looks good. But I know that it's a bad solution, and don't resolve any problems. It's just worse and worse. I think buddhism could help me, and I count on it. Best wishes, Adam #114774 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:44 pm Subject: Re: Giving my backgrounds kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "paccayas" wrote: > > Hello all, > <. . .> > > I think buddhism could help me, and I count on it. > > Best wishes, > Adam ---------------------- Hi Adam, Welcome to DSG, you have come to the right place. We all have our problems - tiredness, old age, sicknesses and pains of various descriptions - but they are all just stories relating to the past. With right understanding we can ignore the stories and start again. Stick around and see how it's done. :-) Ken H #114775 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Giving my backgrounds nilovg Dear Adam, welcome here. Op 26-apr-2011, om 15:45 heeft paccayas het volgende geschreven: > My name is Adam. I am from Poland, 20 years old right now. I am > interesting in Dhamma for not a long time. My cousin Lukas is an > intermediate buddhist (I think so :-) ) He introduced me to > buddhism and Buddha teachings. > > I have some major problems with addiction to opiates. -------- N: There is no immediate remedy, but it is rather a long time process. You need patience to study the Buddha's teachings and find out more about yourself. What is this craving we all have and from where does it come? As Ken H explained, we all have our problems - tiredness, old age, sicknesses... There is not only the present life, there were past lives and we had many problems in the past. We had craving for different things and this causes us to have craving today, and we shall have craving in the future. We can learn that whatever occurs today has conditions which also stem from the past. There is a beginning of understanding of our life when we realize this. When studying the Buddha's teachings there can be more understanding of your mentality at the present. Seeing how it is conditioned, knowing that we cannot direct our mind at will. When we try to do this, it will lead to a lot of frustrations. But more understanding of what the mind exactly is will surely help us to cope with the problems in life. At this moment there is seeing, and there cannot be craving at the same time. There can only be one mental moment at a time, we call mental moment: citta. Citta does not last, it falls away immediately and then there is another citta. We think: I am seeing and believe that seeing lasts, but this is not true. Craving can arise with a citta and we think: I am craving, but it does not last, it falls away immediately. We can learn to see that what is past is past and that it does not come back. Even when thinking of satisfaction in the past, it is gone already. There is not any citta that lasts. When you understand this you may be less inclined to dwell on it that you have a problem, and being worried about it. All cittas arise and fall away and they do not come back. what is gone is gone. So, when you have questions about citta, about what it is, I think that it is helpful. Nina. #114776 From: "philip" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:13 am Subject: Are vipaka defilements? philofillet Hi Nina I was wondering about this sentence in SPD: "Right understanding of cause and result, that is, of defilements, of kamma and of vipaka, can be a condition for a decrease rhe suffering...." Are vipaka defilements? Do we call them defilements only because they are conditioned by defilements, much like we say "akusala vipaka" only because it is the result of akusala kamma? Thanks in advance Metta, Phil #114777 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:19 pm Subject: Check it Out! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to Feed the ability to Investigate all states! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding & cannot survive without food, so are the 7 Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot survive without feeding... And what is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen Investigation & feeding of the completion by progress of already arisen Investigation of states Link to Awakening? This formula: There are states that are: 1: Advantageous or Disadvantageous. 2: Blamable or Blameless. 3: Ordinary or Excellent. 4: On the Bright side or on the Dark side. Frequently giving careful & rational attention to them, is feeding arising of any unarisen ability to investigate & feeding also for the fulfillment of any already arisen Investigation of states Link to Awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs the emergence of yet unarisen ability to investigate & which also hinders ongoing Investigation ? There are, bhikkhus, things that are advantageous or disadvantageous, blamable or blameless, ordinary or excellent and on the bright side or on the dark side: not giving frequent, careful & rational attention to them, not considering them much and often, is the starving that prevents any unarisen ability to investigate from arising and also blocks any already arisen investigation of states link to awakening from reaching complete fulfillment and refinement by mental development... Comments from the classical commentaries: Examining is the characteristic of the Investigation Link to Awakening (Dhamma-Vicaya-sambojjhanga). Scrutiny, inspection, inquiry, exploration, analysis, research & repeated review is the purpose of the investigation. Interested and eager curiosity is the manifestation of this investigating. Before, while and after doing any mental, verbal or bodily action simply then ask yourself: Are this behaviour advantageous or disadvantageous, blamable or blameless, ordinary or excellent, on the bright or dark side and act accordingly! Keep on refining this crucial ethical discrimination! Conditions helpful for the emergence of the ability to investigate are: 1: Asking questions to yourself and those you respect. 2: Clean, healthy and hygienic mental, physical and bodily praxis. 3: Avoidance of people with reduced and confused understanding. 4: Friendship with people with exact and profound understanding. 5: Repeated reviewing reflection on all the deeper questions. 6: Commitment to finding out precisely why and how: Cause and effect! There is investigation of external states and there is investigation of internal states. Both are crucial for all progress towards understanding. Awakening is a pure knowing that is the result of perfect investigation! Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Feeding the ability to Investigate! #114778 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:13 am Subject: Re: Giving my backgrounds sarahprocter... Dear Adam, Welcome to DSG and thank you so much for your honest introduction. Lukas really studies and considers the Buddha's teachings carefully and it's wonderful that he's shared his keen interest with you. I think he's very confident, as I am, that the only real medicine for our various addictions is the Dhamma, the Buddha's Teaching. As you probably know, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. The first Truth is that all phenomena in our life - all the mental and physical realities - are Dukkha, Suffering. We cling on and on to what we consider pleasant and enjoyable through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body-sense, only to find that these experiences don't last. Actually, nothing lasts for an instant, all these experiences are impermanent, and this is why they are Dukkha. We cling to what is Suffering in Truth. The development of understanding of life at this moment is the only way that Suffering will ever be overcome. So what do you consider to be "Life at this moment"? Is there any Adam or are there just mental and physical phenomena, arising and falling away? I'd be glad to hear your ideas! When we feel lonely and depressed, we think a lot about ourselves. I think that Buddhism helps us to honestly see that the cause of such difficulties is the love of ourselves, the importance we find in ourselves. Later, we'll direct you to "Useful Posts" in the files, where there are save messages under "Discouraged, depressed....", but better now if you write more and ask more questions. Ignore threads which are too complex for now. By the way, do you live in Gdansk as well? I think Lukas mentioned you when I spoke to him on skype once. Perhaps you can read the messages here out loud together when you meet and Lukas can help explain the technical terms. It would be helpful for both of you, I'm sure. Must be great to have a cousin with a good interest as you both do. Encourage each other in what is helpful and wise, rather than what will surely lead to more difficulties for yourselves and family members! Are you also studying? I'd like to hear more about you and your interest/qus on Buddhism. The more basic the better! Metta Sarah (in Australia for now) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "paccayas" wrote: > > Hello all, > > My name is Adam. I am from Poland, 20 years old right now. I am interesting in Dhamma for not a long time. My cousin Lukas is an intermediate buddhist (I think so :-) ) He introduced me to buddhism and Buddha teachings. #114779 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:14 am Subject: counting cows (was: Re: Khandhas and samsara) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113818) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... > > > And the herd of cows, which have been experiencing the misery of confined space during the three watches of the night, rush out rubbing up against one another and quickly forming groups. And he quickly counts three, four, five . . > > What's up with the cows, Jon? That passage wasn't in the breath-counting passage that I quoted to you at length. Is that really in the Vis? Counting cows? I'm familiar with counting sheep, but I am not too familiar with the Buddhist practice of counting cows. > > =============== J: ;;-)) Blame the over-sensitive touchpad on my (soon to be replaced) laptop. This issue has caused all sorts of problems such as unintended cursor jumps, pastes and deletions. The cows bit must have been some text I had on the clipboard, but I've no idea where it came from. > =============== > Also, is this meant to be suggestive that maybe the cows are not of good character? I mean, "rubbing up against each other" and all. That is not nice. You'll have to fill me in on the full meaning of this when you get a chance. Fascinating though... > =============== J: A natural but innocent bovine tendency, I believe. Jon #114780 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:54 am Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E Back again for another go at catching up ;-)) (113774) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: No, that's not the commentarial position at all. Knowing kusala from akusala, and knowing the arising of (momentary) dhammas, are 2 different things. As I see it, knowing kusala from akusala means not taking one for the other; it does not, for example, necessarily involve being able to identify successive moments of consciousness as and when they arise. > > [RE:] Well, if kusala and akusala are arising on a momentary basis, and are not more "general" in a given situation, as you strongly assert in this entire post, then how can one know kusala from akusala and not mistake one from the other without knowing the dhamma of the moment clearly? This seems to be a contradiction, but I would be happy to hear how it is possible. > =============== J: Knowing kusala from akusala involves, for example, not taking the present state of apparent calm for being kusala calm if in fact it is the 'calm' of subtle attachment. As regards the development of insight, this involves, for example, awareness of what is presently being experienced through the eye-door as mere visible object (that which is experienced by seeing consciousness). In neither case is there the knowing of dhammas at a moment-to-moment level (I mention this in case you think I am suggesting that the development of insight involves knowing/experiencing dhammas at a single-moment level). > =============== > > J: But the path *is* the very, very gradual development of right understanding. > > [RE:] I think that's an important part of the path, but we have this controversy between this way of thinking and the description of the path as a whole - that the other branches of the 8fold path are also equally important, and in my view, are equally important. ... Waiting for gradual understanding to unfold only through hearing and considering the spoken Dhamma is not the entire path; it is only one part of it. It's a question that should be considered whether one can follow the entire path through depending on only one factor out of eight. If that were the case, Buddha would not have called it an 8fold path, but the Path of Right Understanding. As I understand it, that is not the philosophy he advocated, all by itself, though it is a most important factor, and a leading and necessary factor. > =============== J: The path factors are the mental factors that arise together at moments of path development. So in saying in my earlier post that "the path *is* the very, very gradual development of right understanding", I am in no sense denying the role of the other 7 factors. Similarly, when the Buddha mentions the importance of, for example, right effort or right concentration he is not referring to the development of those factors in isolation from the other path factors, but is emphasising a particular aspect of the path moment. The individual path factors are not actions or qualities to be separately undertaken or developed. > =============== > > J: Better for there to be the (too?) gradual development of awareness than the taking of one kind of kusala for another. > > [RE:] Well if my biggest problem is failing to discern my different diverse types of kusala, that is a problem I'm willing to take on. :-) > =============== J: The taking of one kind of kusala for another may not be as innocuous a matter as you suggest. If for example there's the taking of samatha for insight, there cannot be the development of insight (and this is the main condition for hearing the teachings again in a future lifetime). > =============== > [RE:] Again, I am not advocating watering down the understanding of arising dhammas, but I am advocating applying the Dhamma now to whatever arises, even if it is conventional. > =============== J: We should be wary of any technique or practice that was not recommended by the Buddha (even if it sounds like something we think he would have approve of ;-)). Jon #114781 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:57 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (113782) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > [RE:] Returning to this post to ask the question re. the above - if as you say both kamma and vipaka are mental dhammas, what in your view is kamma patha? > =============== J: Kamma patha is kamma that is 'completed' in the sense of being of sufficient strength to bring a result (kamma that is not completed accumulates as the tendency to do whatever, until it becomes of sufficient strength to condition a deed of the kamma patha kind). Completion may require the fulfilling of multiple conditions (e.g., not only a certain intention but also a certain outcome). Jon #114782 From: "philip" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:38 am Subject: Re: Are vipaka defilements? philofillet Hello again Nina, I see now I misunderstood the comma in the sentence I quoted It is not saying that vipaka are defilements. Never mind! I like this explanation: "Defilements that arise in the series or succession of javana cause the commiting of kamma. Then the cycle of kamma revolves, akusala kamma and kusala kamma, performed through body, speech and mind. The cycle of kamma conditions vipaka, and then the cycle of vipaaka revolves." Metta Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Nina > > I was wondering about this sentence in SPD: > > "Right understanding of cause and result, that is, of defilements, of kamma and of vipaka, can be a condition for a decrease rhe suffering...." > > Are vipaka defilements? Do we call them defilements only because they are conditioned by defilements, much like we say "akusala vipaka" only because it is the result of akusala kamma? > > Thanks in advance > > Metta, > Phil > #114783 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:11 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113817) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > [RE:] I'm sure you disagree that there is any "practice" that is not self-based, but in that case I would ask you what you would define as standing still? If Buddha is saying, as you say above, that we should not "do nothing," then what kind of "doing something" is correct in your view? > =============== J: To my understanding, the middle path is neither the idea that 'the development of the path requires the doing of some particular thing(s)' nor the idea that 'there is nothing that can be done'. When there is an understanding of the importance of seeing dhammas as they truly are, there will from time to time be the kind of reflection that conditions some appreciation of what that means at the practical level. But it requires an appreciation of the need to hear about dhammas and the path frequently and in detail. > =============== > > [J:] The middle way is the 'Noble Eightfold Path', a path of 8 factors (Pali: anga). > > The 8 factors are the 8 cetasikas that arise together at each of the 4 stages of the path. > > In its mundane form, i.e., at moments of awareness/insight (the 'mundane path'), 5 or 6 of the 8 factors arise together. > > So the path is in fact just a moment or moments of a particular kind of consciousness. > > [RE:] When did Buddha say any of that? I'm sure it says that in commentary by way of interpretation of the path, but did Buddha make a statement to that effect? Can you identify it for me? > =============== J: You are right in suggesting that when giving the path factors the Buddha did not say in so many words that they were the co-arising mental factors of (momentary) path consciousness. But neither did he say they were aspects of the path to be separately developed by deliberate 'practice'. Some 'interpretation' of the Buddha's words in required before we can make sense of the teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path. > =============== > > [J:] Its (momentary) arising is conditioned by having heard the teachings, having reflected on (pondered over) what has been heard and being able to relate that to the present moment. > > [RE:] I don't see what all of that has to do with the "middle way." I mean you can say the 8fold noble path is the middle way, but I don't see the explanation of how the 8fold noble path comes to be seen as the middle way. There has to be a reason why it is "middle" rather than an extreme. How does the 8fold path avoid being an "extreme" path on either side in your view? What does it avoid by being a path of the 8 factors you mention? What is "middle" about them? > =============== J: It is a middle way simply because it is a moment of co-arising mental factors that occur by virtue of specific conditions, rather than being something that occurs by virtue of a deliberate practice (on the one hand) or something that happens by mere chance/doing nothing (on the other). > =============== > > J: It may be true that counting can help concentration, but where is the kusala in that? Neither concentration nor counting is inherently kusala. > > [RE:] Why is it in the Vis? Why is it said to lead to greater concentration and allow for the later stages of anapansati? Presumably when Buddhaghosa says "the practitioner should do X" he is reporting something that was originally given by the Buddha. > =============== J: I don't think that's a safe assumption. To my understanding, with certain notable exceptions, the details of bare samatha/jhana development were widely known at the time of the Buddha's birth. What the Buddha mostly taught as regards samatha/jhana was how that development could go hand in hand with the development of insight, and how the jhana citta itself could be object of insight. As regards the reason for the reference to counting breath, you see it as something to be done to help make kusala arise when there might not otherwise be kusala. To me, a more likely explanation in the context is that if and when kusala has been developed to a certain stage, there can be the counting of breath while kusala consciousness is maintained (with further developed kusala thereby ensuing). > =============== > [RE:] Obviously, the kusala comes in as the skill of samatha and focus on the nature of the breath develops to the point where both samatha and mindfulness are developed and lead to suppression of defilements, insight, etc. So the pathway of anapanasati certainly is kusala, and counting breath is a *technique* that enables that development. It seems pretty simple to me. > =============== J: Let me go back to my question in an earlier post that I don't think you have answered yet (apologies if you have but I've overlooked it): Where would be the kusala in concentrating on the breath and counting the in- and out-breaths? Neither concentration nor counting is inherently kusala. > =============== > > [J:] 'Samatha', as in the name if the Part of the Vism we are discussing, means 'tranquility', and this is a reference to the passadhi cetasika that accompanies each moment of kusala. > > [RE:] Cultivation of samatha is something a bit different from developing kusala in general. You are saying samatha arises with kusala, but the techniques for cultivating samatha that are described are not about developing samatha by developing kusala, but are about developing samatha by cultivating samatha, which is then kusala. > =============== J: To my understanding, there cannot be the cultivation of samatha unless there is already an understanding of (kusala) calm as the distinguishing factor of all kinds of kusala, and this means the development of kusala in general. > =============== [RE:] You may say that samatha arises with kusala, and that is true, but kusala also arises if and when samatha is present, and samatha itself is a state that can be developed in its own right, which of course is the point of that aspect of anapanasati practice. > =============== J: There can be no anapanasati unless there is first the intellectual understanding of what the kusala involved is. So again the question as to where the kusala lies in concentrating on the breath. > =============== > > [J:] For as long as the citta is not kusala, there will be no samatha. > > [RE:] That my be so, but that is not to say that the development of samatha in its own right is *akusala.* If samatha is indeed developed then it goes without saying that it *is* kusala, so I don't see the problem there. We can arrange our cart and horse any way we may like, but the two elements will still arise together. Kusala with samatha or samatha with kusala; chicken and egg I would say. > =============== J: You seem to be assuming that (mere) concentration on the breath (with or without counting) is, or will lead to, kusala of the samatha kind. So easy! ;-). As I said earlier in this thread, neither the fact of concentration nor the fact that breath is the object (nor the combination of the 2) can make consciousness kusala. Jon #114784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are vipaka defilements? nilovg Dear Philip, Op 27-apr-2011, om 11:13 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Are vipaka defilements? Do we call them defilements only because > they are conditioned by defilements, much like we say "akusala > vipaka" only because it is the result of akusala kamma? ------- N: Defilements are not vipaaka. They are akusala dhammas that can condition akusala kamma through body, speech and mind. There are three rounds in the Dependent Origination: the round of defilements, of kamma and of vipaaka. On account of what we see, hear, or experience through the other senses defilements arise. These motivate kamma which produces in due time vipaaka. Seeing is vipaaka, and account of this defilements arise again, motivating kamma, which produces again vipaaka. So long as we are in the cycle there is no end. But right understanding of the present moment can be developed, be it defilement, kamma or vipaaka. ----- Nina. #114785 From: "azita" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:49 am Subject: Re: Problems again gazita2002 hallo Lucas I will see Achan in about 2-3 days so will put yr new questions to her... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Azita, (all) > Yes very helpful answers. But i need some detailed explanation also cause I dont get all the answers. Is it possible to still pose some questions to Acharn when there is opportunity? > > p.s > Today I drink 3 bears and smoke some cigarets. It looks like I' ve never learn that this is not good to drink.Could u ask Acharn what about drinking and dosa after that? How to give up drinking? azita: I laughed when I read this, and thought that you have dosa because you are drinking 'bears' and not 'beers'. Please pardon me Lucas, I know English is not yr first language and I know I make mistakes when I attempt speaking Thai, so I hope you will share with me the amusement. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #114786 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are vipaka defilements? nilovg Dear Philip, Op 27-apr-2011, om 13:38 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I like this explanation: "Defilements that arise in the series or > succession of javana cause the commiting of kamma. Then the cycle > of kamma revolves, akusala kamma and kusala kamma, performed > through body, speech and mind. The cycle of kamma conditions > vipaka, and then the cycle of vipaaka revolves." ------ N: Yes, correct. This is not theory, but it is occurring right now. ----- Nina. #114787 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:09 am Subject: counting cows (was: Re: Khandhas and samsara) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113818) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... > > > > > And the herd of cows, which have been experiencing the misery of confined space during the three watches of the night, rush out rubbing up against one another and quickly forming groups. And he quickly counts three, four, five . . > > > > What's up with the cows, Jon? That passage wasn't in the breath-counting passage that I quoted to you at length. Is that really in the Vis? Counting cows? I'm familiar with counting sheep, but I am not too familiar with the Buddhist practice of counting cows. > > > > =============== > > J: ;;-)) Blame the over-sensitive touchpad on my (soon to be replaced) laptop. This issue has caused all sorts of problems such as unintended cursor jumps, pastes and deletions. The cows bit must have been some text I had on the clipboard, but I've no idea where it came from. > > > =============== > > Also, is this meant to be suggestive that maybe the cows are not of good character? I mean, "rubbing up against each other" and all. That is not nice. You'll have to fill me in on the full meaning of this when you get a chance. Fascinating though... > > =============== > > J: A natural but innocent bovine tendency, I believe. I see you have metta for the cows, and I will follow suit. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114788 From: "philip" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:13 am Subject: Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? philofillet Hi Nina In your post to Adam ( welcome Adam) you mentionned moments of seeing and moments of craving, You said seeing falls away, gone forever, this I understand. But you imply the same thing about craving. I think there is a tendency to say "gone forever" about akusala citta when that is not true, it accumulates and also sometimes conditions kamma that gives rise to results in the future. I think "gone forever never to return" and ""what's past is past" is true of seeing, but not quite as true of craving or other javanas. I would to read your explanation of this together with Sarah's, which she wrote to me some weeks ago. Thanks in advance. Only when you have time. Metta, Phil #114789 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:50 am Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Similarly, when the Buddha mentions the importance of, for example, right effort or right concentration he is not referring to the development of those factors in isolation from the other path factors, but is emphasising a particular aspect of the path moment. > > The individual path factors are not actions or qualities to be separately undertaken or developed. Just another note on this point, going to the Magga-vibhanga Sutta again, the Buddha makes absolutely clear in this "analysis of the path" that Right Concentration *is* jhana, period, no ifs ands or buts. I think that those who say that jhana is optional or is not the only meaning of right concentration should read this twice. It doesn't leave any room for variation: ------------------------ "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk - quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities - enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation - internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain - as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress - he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." ------------------------ Buddha begins this stanza by saying "And what monks, IS right concentration." Buddha then goes through the clear stages of the jhanas one by one, as he does so many times in the suttas, but here in the context of saying exactly what the path IS, and at the end of this description, which is about nothing but Jhana, says "This, monks, is called right concentration." Period, no footnotes, no exceptions. He begins by saying "What is right concentration?" And he ends by saying "This [the jhanas I have just described] is right concentration." I can accept the dry insight explanation that an exceptional individual who develops insight to a very high degree may develop concentration of the first jhana which allows them a bridge to enlightenment, but this is an alternate path, not the main path, and it is clear that the main path, and the most worthy path, is the path that includes the succession through the jhanas. It's not a side-issue. Those who become enlightened merely by hearing the teachings are very rare exceptions among the rare exceptions of the Buddha's time. We should not fool ourselves into thinking that we can ignore the issue of jhana and hope that we will be lucky enough to be of the highest mental type that will be capable of dry insight without the benefit of strong development of samatha into the jhanas. If we work on it now, we may get there in some number of lifetimes. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114790 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:52 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113782) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > [RE:] Returning to this post to ask the question re. the above - if as you say both kamma and vipaka are mental dhammas, what in your view is kamma patha? > > =============== > > J: Kamma patha is kamma that is 'completed' in the sense of being of sufficient strength to bring a result (kamma that is not completed accumulates as the tendency to do whatever, until it becomes of sufficient strength to condition a deed of the kamma patha kind). > > Completion may require the fulfilling of multiple conditions (e.g., not only a certain intention but also a certain outcome). In the world of paramatha dhammas, how do you define an "outcome?" Is it an action in the world of rupa, or is it an experience in the world of citta? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114791 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:15 am Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Dear Azita, Thanks for posing a questions. Actually I have more and more to ask Acharn. All's all right have a fun :P Best wishes Lukas > azita: I laughed when I read this, and thought that you have dosa because you are drinking 'bears' and not 'beers'. Please pardon me Lucas, I know English is not yr first language and I know I make mistakes when I attempt speaking Thai, so I hope you will share with me the amusement. #114792 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:41 am Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > So in saying in my earlier post that "the path *is* the very, very gradual development of right understanding", I am in no sense denying the role of the other 7 factors. > > Similarly, when the Buddha mentions the importance of, for example, right effort or right concentration he is not referring to the development of those factors in isolation from the other path factors, but is emphasising a particular aspect of the path moment. > > The individual path factors are not actions or qualities to be separately undertaken or developed. I think that is a matter of opinion, one that may not be easily resolved. I see many places where Buddha admonishes people to do things with reference to one path factor or another, and does not talk about them as continuously interrelated momentary arising mental factors, but we have argued about this before. - - - - - - - - - - - From SN 45.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech. "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action. "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood. "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen." - - - - - - - - - - - Note that 'right effort' is not an arising factor of consciousness but a "formal" effort. The monk "generates desire." He "endeavors." He "activates persistence." He "exerts his intent." Of course you can reinterpret this to somehow make it a passive arising if you like, but it's not what the sutta states or implies. Buddha could have said "persistence and intent arises in his mind," but he did not, he used the active form and credited these actions of right effort to the monk himself. I think if Buddha were to post on dsg and say that the monk "activates persistence and exerts his intent" he would have a big argument with Ken H, who would tell him he had misinterpreted his own teachings, and that this statement was full of self-view. :-) ... > J: The taking of one kind of kusala for another may not be as innocuous a matter as you suggest. If for example there's the taking of samatha for insight, there cannot be the development of insight (and this is the main condition for hearing the teachings again in a future lifetime). Oh, okay, that is an important point. I still don't understand how insight develops in lieu of direct discernment. Is it through nimitta, or how does it work? > > =============== > > [RE:] Again, I am not advocating watering down the understanding of arising dhammas, but I am advocating applying the Dhamma now to whatever arises, even if it is conventional. > > =============== > > J: We should be wary of any technique or practice that was not recommended by the Buddha (even if it sounds like something we think he would have approve of ;-)). How about if it's something he actually said? ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #114793 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are vipaka defilements? szmicio Dear Nina, Phil I would be glad to hear more on vipaka and kamma. During my retreat I used to consider vipaka and kamma law. This was very helpful. I also miss reading with samvega as I did long ago. Best wishes Lukas > N: Defilements are not vipaaka. They are akusala dhammas that can > condition akusala kamma through body, speech and mind. > There are three rounds in the Dependent Origination: the round of > defilements, of kamma and of vipaaka. On account of what we see, > hear, or experience through the other senses defilements arise. These > motivate kamma which produces in due time vipaaka. Seeing is vipaaka, > and account of this defilements arise again, motivating kamma, which > produces again vipaaka. So long as we are in the cycle there is no > end. But right understanding of the present moment can be developed, > be it defilement, kamma or vipaaka. #114794 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:48 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113817) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > [RE:] I'm sure you disagree that there is any "practice" that is not self-based, but in that case I would ask you what you would define as standing still? If Buddha is saying, as you say above, that we should not "do nothing," then what kind of "doing something" is correct in your view? > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, the middle path is neither the idea that 'the development of the path requires the doing of some particular thing(s)' nor the idea that 'there is nothing that can be done'. > > When there is an understanding of the importance of seeing dhammas as they truly are, there will from time to time be the kind of reflection that conditions some appreciation of what that means at the practical level. Well, leaving the reflection aside for a moment in your very intriguing statement, and whether or not one is at a point where they can truly appreciate its importance, what does seeing dhammas as they truly are mean at a practical level? Can you put that into a statement, or is it ineffable? In what sense is "seeing dhammas" not standing still, yet not taking action, if it happens without any doing? In terms of action and the sutta, is it not then a form of standing still? > But it requires an appreciation of the need to hear about dhammas and the path frequently and in detail. > > > =============== > > > [J:] The middle way is the 'Noble Eightfold Path', a path of 8 factors (Pali: anga). > > > The 8 factors are the 8 cetasikas that arise together at each of the 4 stages of the path. > > > In its mundane form, i.e., at moments of awareness/insight (the 'mundane path'), 5 or 6 of the 8 factors arise together. > > > So the path is in fact just a moment or moments of a particular kind of consciousness. > > > > [RE:] When did Buddha say any of that? I'm sure it says that in commentary by way of interpretation of the path, but did Buddha make a statement to that effect? Can you identify it for me? > > =============== > > J: You are right in suggesting that when giving the path factors the Buddha did not say in so many words that they were the co-arising mental factors of (momentary) path consciousness. > > But neither did he say they were aspects of the path to be separately developed by deliberate 'practice'. Well actually he did say in many many cases, as I have quoted in my recent post on the sutta on the "analysis of the path," very specific things to do or avoid doing which he defined directly *as* the path factors, so you are contradicted on that point. > Some 'interpretation' of the Buddha's words in required before we can make sense of the teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path. There is a difference between interpretation and contradiction. In my view, if you have to contradict what the sutta clearly says in order to interpret it, you are disagreeing with it. I am always eager to learn the correct interpretation of the Dhamma from those who have studied it longer and harder than I have, but I have to see some evidence to understand the interpretation's connection to the suttas. If it's a matter of faith in the Abhidhamma commentaries, or to a particular interpretation of the commentaries, then that is worth stating, and then I can evaluate them in that light. If there is a clear bridge, on the other hand, from the sutta to your view of it, then that would be worth knowing so I can see how it makes the case. > > =============== > > > [J:] Its (momentary) arising is conditioned by having heard the teachings, having reflected on (pondered over) what has been heard and being able to relate that to the present moment. > > > > [RE:] I don't see what all of that has to do with the "middle way." I mean you can say the 8fold noble path is the middle way, but I don't see the explanation of how the 8fold noble path comes to be seen as the middle way. There has to be a reason why it is "middle" rather than an extreme. How does the 8fold path avoid being an "extreme" path on either side in your view? What does it avoid by being a path of the 8 factors you mention? What is "middle" about them? > > =============== > > J: It is a middle way simply because it is a moment of co-arising mental factors that occur by virtue of specific conditions, rather than being something that occurs by virtue of a deliberate practice (on the one hand) or something that happens by mere chance/doing nothing (on the other). So it is in the middle of mere chance and intentional action. I'm not sure if those are the two poles that Buddha outline. Could you show me where the middle way nature of the 8fold path is made clear in that way? > > =============== > > > J: It may be true that counting can help concentration, but where is the kusala in that? Neither concentration nor counting is inherently kusala. > > > > [RE:] Why is it in the Vis? Why is it said to lead to greater concentration and allow for the later stages of anapansati? Presumably when Buddhaghosa says "the practitioner should do X" he is reporting something that was originally given by the Buddha. > > =============== > > J: I don't think that's a safe assumption. To my understanding, with certain notable exceptions, the details of bare samatha/jhana development were widely known at the time of the Buddha's birth. What the Buddha mostly taught as regards samatha/jhana was how that development could go hand in hand with the development of insight, and how the jhana citta itself could be object of insight. In the sutta that I keep referring to, which is Buddha's own "analysis of the path," he baldly states that the development of the 4 jhanas *is* right concentration, no ifs, ands or buts. He never says it the way you are stating it, that "if you happen to be good at jhana, you can make it the object of insight." He states quite clearly that it is one of the most important path factors, period, one of the eight, and he does not mention any other substitutions that stand in for "right concentration" other than jhana. I would like to see how you interpret this statement in order to see it otherwise. This is one of those cases where you appear to be directly contradicting the Buddha's clearly stated program in order to adhere to an interpretation that is not in the the suttas that he spoke. > As regards the reason for the reference to counting breath, you see it as something to be done to help make kusala arise when there might not otherwise be kusala. I don't just see it that way, it is clearly stated that way. If you are now saying that Buddhaghosa also had a problem with wrong view, well, the list is getting longer of the great interpreters of Buddhism that don't seem to know what's really going on, but otherwise, it is clear enough. It is a step-by-step program, and Buddhaghosa says that once concentration is well established, the counting can be dispensed with. How could it be any clearer? > To me, a more likely explanation in the context is that if and when kusala has been developed to a certain stage, there can be the counting of breath while kusala consciousness is maintained (with further developed kusala thereby ensuing). That is a stretch. "In context," as you say, there is nothing of that flavor at all. Buddhaghosas says clearly - and I hope I don't have to look the passage up again but I have quoted it to you at length - that this is what one should do, step by step, to develop concentration in anapanasati. It's part of a series of increasingly advanced practices. It should not be necessary to do such inventive and acrobatic intellectual yoga to reinterpret the meaning of something that is plainly and obviously stated. > > =============== > > [RE:] Obviously, the kusala comes in as the skill of samatha and focus on the nature of the breath develops to the point where both samatha and mindfulness are developed and lead to suppression of defilements, insight, etc. So the pathway of anapanasati certainly is kusala, and counting breath is a *technique* that enables that development. It seems pretty simple to me. > > =============== > > J: Let me go back to my question in an earlier post that I don't think you have answered yet (apologies if you have but I've overlooked it): Where would be the kusala in concentrating on the breath and counting the in- and out-breaths? Neither concentration nor counting is inherently kusala. Well the answer is that one step leads to another, and the kusala is in the intent to follow the Buddha's program, I guess. Or else you could say it is in the skillfulness developed that allows one to develop insight based on the skill that has been gained. I don't believe that everything is everything. There are steps in all skills and all endeavors. One doesn't say that finger exercises are useless for learning piano because they are not artistic and one has to play Chopin before having any skill development. Developing concentration is a good in its own right because it allows the path to be followed to the next step. It's not that strange if one sees the path as one of increasing skill as opposed to the continuous re-arising of magical kusala, based only on past kusala, with no skill, practice or development involved. > > =============== > > > [J:] 'Samatha', as in the name if the Part of the Vism we are discussing, means 'tranquility', and this is a reference to the passadhi cetasika that accompanies each moment of kusala. > > > > [RE:] Cultivation of samatha is something a bit different from developing kusala in general. You are saying samatha arises with kusala, but the techniques for cultivating samatha that are described are not about developing samatha by developing kusala, but are about developing samatha by cultivating samatha, which is then kusala. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, there cannot be the cultivation of samatha unless there is already an understanding of (kusala) calm as the distinguishing factor of all kinds of kusala, and this means the development of kusala in general. Well we are not going to agree on this. I believe in the psychophysiology of practice as well as the development of awareness. By calming the breath and calming the body, the body, the perception and the mind becomes calmer and more attentive. Worrying about kusala while developing samatha does not promote calm or kusala, just anxiety and akusala. It is kusala to enter samatha or insight development with an open mind and with faith in the Buddha. It is not necessary to be hooked up to a lie detector to make sure no subtle kusala is lurking about. I believe that subtle akusala will become apparent as awareness becomes more refined, and obvious akusala will be...obvious. > > =============== > [RE:] You may say that samatha arises with kusala, and that is true, but kusala also arises if and when samatha is present, and samatha itself is a state that can be developed in its own right, which of course is the point of that aspect of anapanasati practice. > > =============== > > J: There can be no anapanasati unless there is first the intellectual understanding of what the kusala involved is. So again the question as to where the kusala lies in concentrating on the breath. I disagree with what I see as an essentially intellectual formulation of a non-intellectual practice. There is no way to check for the last drop of akusala or get your kusala certified. One would have to wait forever to practice anything, and that is exactly the conclusion that you draw: it is only safe to read, study, discuss and understand, not to do anything. I just don't agree. I believe that the Buddha's practice is purifying and creates kusala. I don't have to root it out so thoroughly before ever sitting and attending a breath. It is the Buddha's way of discernment. > > =============== > > > [J:] For as long as the citta is not kusala, there will be no samatha. > > > > [RE:] That my be so, but that is not to say that the development of samatha in its own right is *akusala.* If samatha is indeed developed then it goes without saying that it *is* kusala, so I don't see the problem there. We can arrange our cart and horse any way we may like, but the two elements will still arise together. Kusala with samatha or samatha with kusala; chicken and egg I would say. > > =============== > > J: You seem to be assuming that (mere) concentration on the breath (with or without counting) is, or will lead to, kusala of the samatha kind. So easy! ;-). No, I am assuming that sincere effort, combined wiht an understanding of the purpose of the practice, will lead to kusala results, possibly with many bumps in the road; but it is a kusala practice to undertake. And following the Buddha's instructions, consulting sutta, and maintaining openness with regard to results, will help. > As I said earlier in this thread, neither the fact of concentration nor the fact that breath is the object (nor the combination of the 2) can make consciousness kusala. But it is a part of the practice, not all of it, and a part of the practice that can lead to a skill that applies to the path. There is nothing wrong with that, and the path itself is ultimately purifying. If I develop calm and I know that without insight the calm will not complete the path, I am going to be aware of that and undertake a balanced practice, taking into account what the Buddha says to do at each stage. It's not just whistling in the dark. When insight arises, then the path gets more certain and the direction more clear. When obstacles arise, one deals with them and works through the akusala. The path allows for all things to be treated with calm and insight and the further development of both. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114795 From: "jacob" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:52 am Subject: Re: Giving my backgrounds perpetualfl0w dear adam , i applaud you for your reaching out openly to try and release yourself from the situations you describe. One dear Dhamma friend has once advised me that openness and truthfullness with spiritual friendship IE friendship with the wise and enlightened is the doorway to relief from sufferrings. in my opinioun this is true, being open and cultivating trust with the Buddha Dhamma and Sangha ( including all us laypeoepls who are earnest ) is unlimitedly helpfull. i think valuable spiritual friends you look up to for advise will not judge your situation in a personal or egoic way, because they will understand that all living beings are sufferring from their own dellusions in so far as they have not removed the cause of sufferring for themself. so if you really want to come out of your pains , be open and truthfull with yourself and others, and there will be a positive response. best of luck to you , hope you meet up with some inner strength and help. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "paccayas" wrote: > > Hello all, > > My name is Adam. I am from Poland, 20 years old right now. I am interesting in Dhamma for not a long time. My cousin Lukas is an intermediate buddhist (I think so :-) ) He introduced me to buddhism and Buddha teachings. > > I have some major problems with addiction to opiates. I cannot handle that and I really don't know how to handle that. Is it bad? How can I give it up? I have remorse about my situation, and my addictions strongly influences my life. So I can't live normally. I don't think that psychiatric doctor (shrink) can help me. I have problems with self-assessment etc. Also, I am depressed and I am thinking almost all the time about drugs. It's my only solution for a problem of loneliness and to be happy. When I am on high thing looks good - everything looks good. But I know that it's a bad solution, and don't resolve any problems. It's just worse and worse. > > I think buddhism could help me, and I count on it. > > Best wishes, > Adam > #114796 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) truth_aerator Hello RobertE, Jon, all, The path is gradual and it is fabricated. This is not Mahayana. The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. To abandon the path is like to jump off the raft in the middle of the sea, or not to embark on the journey to the other shore. Only when one has cross the sea, only then one lets go of the raft. Things done in the begining of the path may be different from where one ultimately arrives, but without doing those things in the begining, one would not arrive at the destination. So before one reaches non-doing, one must do things that will lead one there. Same with the path. Sense of self which we have can be either used properly, or misused in akusala way. If one doesn't have the desire, one will not follow the path. When it is no longer needed, the desire is abandoned (SN51.15). One doesn't contradict the other. Clinging to the Dhamma is required until path of Arhatship. A parable of ladder leading to some place: To climb the ladder you need to cling to the step, and let go it when you cling to the higher step. Without firm basis in clinging, one will simply fall off, or not climb higher. As one climbs higher, one clings to higher and higher steps. Then when one has climbed to the top, one can let go of the ladder and proceed to the destination. If one would try to grab the step that is too far above, one will either be unable to, or lose one's balance. In Dhamma it is the same. One clings to the certain stage, and then when it has fulfilled the purpose, one lets it go and attach to the next stage. If one doesn't properly cling, and cling hard, then one will simply not progress in Dhamma. One will be blown by the strongest current, which is kilesas for us. Just like one was being blown in samsara for all this time... "The noble eightfold path is fabricated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html Relay chariots http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.024.than.html Desire is required for Awakening at which point being no longer needed, it is abandoned. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html IMHO, With best wishes, Alex #114797 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) ashkenn2k Dear Jon and Rob E In supramudane, the path factors come as one, not so for mundane. So it is not correct to say the path factor comes in unison in mundane factor as there could be right concentration without the right speech, right livelihood and right action. It is not necessary to have right panna to arise also because when one applied right action at a situation it can be without panna. Nowhere in the text said that if panna don't arise, it is not known as mundane right path factor. On the other hand, the text said about mundane and supramundane virture, concentration and insight and those with cankers are mundane and those without are suparmundane. Ken O #114798 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:43 pm Subject: The Chief Root Hero! bhikkhu5 Friends: Energy (Viriya) is a Link to Awakening! The Energy Link to Awakening (Viriya-sambojjhanga) is basically the same mental property (viriya-cetasika), as that which performs any effort of action and which also is inherently included in the: The Energy Feet of Force (viriyiddhipâda) The Ability of Energy (viriyindriya) The Power of Energy (viriyabala) The Right Effort Path Factor (sammâ-vâyâma-magganga) When trained, developed and aroused energy is capable of enlightening! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (âsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Energy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who examines, finds out why, & comes to assured comprehension, in him his energy link to awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] The ability of energy is to initiate, launch into action and to complete any undertaking using persistent endurance. When this ability becomes unshakable and unfailing, it then becomes the mighty Power of Energy! The function of energy is this four-fold Right Effort of: 1: Eradicating evil & disadvantageous states that have arisen in the mind. 2: Preventing the arising of yet unarisen disadvantageous mental states. 3: Initiating and developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states. 4: Increasing, refining & completing already arisen advantageous states. The characteristic of energy is readiness, willingness, enthusiastic ease, eager and keen vigour. The manifestation of energy is action, exertion, endeavour, industry, struggle, powerful striving and accomplishment! Lazy: The one, who does not rise, when it is time to rise. Who though young and strong, is weak in mind, soft in will, and lazy by nature, such slow one does never find the way to Nibbâna. Dhammapada 280 Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams? How can you sleep, when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving... Sutta Nipâta 331 Get up! Sit up! Push on your training, until reaching sole peace! Do not let the king of death see you sloppy and thus delude and dominate you like a toy doll... Sutta Nipâta 332 Feeding the Energy: And what, friends, is feeding the Energy Link to Enlightenment, that has not yet arised, and food too for boosting of any present Energy? 1: The element of mental initiative, 2: The element of launching into action, 3: The element of enduring persistence. Systematic attention to these, is feeding any yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening, and food too for boosting any present Energy. Samyutta Nikâya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta Fivefold final Energy: Following the Buddha the energy in the disciple culminates, when he finally thinks: Let just this blood and flesh dry up & wither away so only skin, sinews and bones remain, I will not give up my quest and stray from this Noble 8-fold Path before having reached Enlightenment...! <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #114799 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:30 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ---------------- <. . .> > KO: The commentary speaks for itself that conceiving of views is because of a self view on the concepts etc and not because there is no absolute reality of people. ----------------- KH: Your interpretation of the commentary sounds right as far as it goes. Concepts can be experienced without wrong view. If that is all you are saying then, of course, you are right. I think everyone at DSG has agreed on that. If, however, you are going so far as to say concepts are absolute realities then you are absolutely wrong. So which is it? ----------------------------- > KO: Seeing nama and rupa which is necesary to attain supradmundane stage is not about discarding concepts or conventional. The ancient master and texts are clear in their instructions and have never reject concepts or conventional as part of the path. ---------------------------- KO: In what way are they part of the path? ----------------------------------- > KO: So should we think we are better than the ancient masters because dhamma is not in the text and is in our understanding. ----------------------------------- KO: In what way have the ancient masters said concepts were part of the path? ------------------------------------------------- > KO: IMHO, I felt the conceit we have at times when we think our understanding is better or our teachers are better than the ancient masters. -------------------------------------------------- KH: Before you judge anyone you should check your facts. Where is it said that concepts can be part of the path? ------------------------------------------------------------ > KO: Think about what I said whether what you have learn is in line with the doctrine. ------------------------------------------------------------ KH: But what have you said? Have you said the path (right thought, right speech, . . . right concentration) is composed partly of conditioned dhammas and partly of concepts? Or have you said that people and other concepts are absolute realities with inherent characteristics, and can accordingly be experienced by path consciousness? (I disagree with both, of course.) --------------------------------------------- > KO: The next few days, if I got time, I will type out the commentary text talking about why there is kamma in killing even though dhamma is momentary. -------------------------- KH: I see that you have done that now, thanks. Does it somehow relate to the topic of this conversation? Do you understand it to be saying that concepts are realities? Do you understand it to be saying that concepts bear the inherent characteristics, anicca dukkha and anatta? Whichever it is, I am 100% sure you are mistaken. Ken H