#114800 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 Dear Rob E >Thank you for this description. It seems that this explanation does acknowledge >both the intention and the action, as well as the body of the person who is >killed. While it does not assign agency to a "person" and shows how no such >agency can exist, it does admit agency to the mental and physical forces that >cause the action, as well as the intention. Do you think I have interpreted this > > >passage correctly? KO: Yes the text attribute agency (being) though not self is the cause of the actions. I am not sure what you mean by intentions as intention could mean vitakka or the wholesome and unwholesome cetasikas by your meaning. There is one thing for sure, during the act of killing, hatred (ill will) that it is the root the generate the action is neglible in kamma effect, the kamma commit is the act through the body door. Other roots can be dependent support condition for the act killing for example (but not roots that arise together with the act itself), those craving of sense pleasures could when suddenly taken away could cause a violent act that cause murder Other unwholesome cesikas which are not roots could also be dependent support condition for killing like miserliness which could killing due to a fear that someone wanted to take away one's stuff. Conceit which is not a root but could be dependent support condition for the act of killing due to one's pride Ken O > >From: Robert E >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Monday, 25 April 2011 22:15:21 >Subject: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK >March 2011 > > >Hi Ken O. > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: >> >> Dear Rob E >> >> this the commentary on the killing >> >> The All Embracing Net of Views and its commentaries, B Bodhi page 113 >> <>moment >> >> to moemnt, who kills and who is killed? If it is said that the continuum of >> consciousness and its concomitants kills and is killed, this answer has to be >> rejected. For such a continuum is immaterial, that because it is immaterial it >> >> >> >> is incapable of inflicting any harm by cutting, breaking, etc nor can it harmed >> >> >> >> itself. If it is said that "killing" and "being killed" apply to material >> continuum, this alternative too must be rejected. Fro the material continuum >>is >> >> deviod of consciousness, like a block of wood, and so the destruction of life >>by >> >> cutting etc, can no more apply to the body than to a lifeless corpse. >> >> Again the means of destroying life, such as striking a blow etc., must >>apply >> >> to formations either in the past, the future, or the present. But it >>impossible >> >> that the means could apply to past or future formations, since those do not >> exist (at the time the blow is struck). In the case of present formations, any >> >> >> >> application of the means would be useless. For the present formations, due to > > > >> the momentary nature, are subject to complete cessation anyway, and hence are >> already heading towards their own destruction by themselves. Since therefore, > > > >> their destruction occurs without any extraneous cause (but follows from their >> nature) death would not be caused by the striking of blows or by other means. > > > >> Because the formations are deviod of personal initiative (nirihaka), to whom do >> >> >> >> the means of killing belong? And who should be bound by the kamma of >>destroying >> >> life if, due to momentariness, the intention of killing breaks up at the very >> same time it arise, and does not last up to the time of the act's completion? >> >> Reply: The "killer" is the asemblage of formations conventionally called a >> "being", containing the aforementioned of formations volition of killing. That >> >> >> >> which is "is killed" by him is the aggregation of material and immaterial >> dhammas that would have been capable of arising (in continued sucession) if >> the aforemonetioned means killing had not been applied, but which now conitnues >> >> >> >> as a bare procession (of material dhammas) conventionally termed "dead", >> deprived of vital warmth, consciousness, and the life faculty due to the >> application of the means of killing by the killer. Or else (that which "is >> killed" may be defined as) the continuum of consciousness and its concomitants > > > >> alone. Although the mental continuum does not itself form the actual object of >> >> >> >> the maens of killing (since the victim's body is the object), still the notion > > > >> of life-destruction remains valid (even with this definition). For in the five >> >> >> >> constituent existence, the mental continuum occurs in dependence upon the >> material continuum; so when an enemy applies the means of cutting off the >> life-facult to the material continuum in such a way that the successive arising >> >> >> >> of the vital material states linked up with and supporting the correlative >> mental continuum is impaired, then the disruption (of the mental continuum) >> takes place (and the being is said to be killed). Again the destruction of >>life >> >> is not without specific cause, nor is the application of the means of killing >> useless. Death is not without a specifice cause: (1) because if the means >> killing are applied to the present formations, the aggregation of formations >>due >> >> to arise in immediate succession to them will not arise; (2) because in the >> present context it is not the "momentary death" of the momentary formations >>that >> >> is intended by the designation "death"; and (3) beacuse the death of the >> life-continuity (which is meant here) does occur through specific causes, as >> explained above. Therefore, death is no causeless. Nor are the means of >> destroying life void of agency (katturahita). Though formations lack personal > > > >> initiative, nevertheless, the conventional designation of agency is applicable > > > >> to causes that are effective through their contiguity and are fixed in their >> capacity to give results adequate to themselves, just as in the statements "the >> >> >> >> lamp illumates" and "the moon brings in the night" (agency is ascribed to the >> lamp and to the moon) >> >> The act of destroying life must be recognized to pertain not only to the >> aggregation of consciousness and mental concomitants existing simultaneously >> with the intention of killing, but must also be admitted to apply to the >>(entire >> >> sequence of state) that ensures by way of (the unity and individuality of) the > > > >> continuum. Just as the accomplishment of activity is seen in the cause of >> lamps, etc, which likewise exist by way of continuity, so too there certainly > > > >> does exist one who is bound by the kamma of destroying life. >> >> The same method of investigation may, with due alterations, be applied in >> the case of taking what is not given, etc as well.>> >> >> Ken O > >Thank you for this description. It seems that this explanation does acknowledge >both the intention and the action, as well as the body of the person who is >killed. While it does not assign agency to a "person" and shows how no such >agency can exist, it does admit agency to the mental and physical forces that >cause the action, as well as the intention. Do you think I have interpreted this > > >passage correctly? > >Best, >Robert E. > >= = = = = = = = = > #114801 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:23 pm Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(1) szmicio Dear Sarah > p.s Lukas: for the last discussion notes, in the search space on the DSG home page, put in "Bangkok Sujin December" and you'll find them all. > ====== L: Well, I cant find it. Could u give a links. Also I think I could miss some fresh discussion's reports with Acharn here on DSG. Could u(or someone else) also give me the links? Best wishes Lukas #114802 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are vipaka defilements? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 27-apr-2011, om 18:25 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I would be glad to hear more on vipaka and kamma. > During my retreat I used to consider vipaka and kamma law. This was > very helpful. I also miss reading with samvega as I did long ago. ---------- N: The first citta in life, the rebirth-consciousness, is vipaakacitta, the result of kamma. I quote from Kh Sujin (in Dhamma Home, Chiengmai): ----- N: Some people are born without pa~n~naa, some with pa~n~naa of different degrees, depending on the kamma that produced rebirth. Now we have a rare chance to hear Dhamma and we should not waste this opportunity. ------ Kh Sujin: < Now we are born as a human and during life there are happiness or sorrow, depending on kamma. We see or hear pleasant objects or unpleasant objects and so it is with the other sense impressions. We cannot choose what we experience. We have different accumulated inclinations. Different people may see the same but they react differently. Some people are generous whereas others are stingy. Just doing good deeds without understanding is not enough, because our unwholesome accumulated tendencies just continue. We study the Dhamma in order to understand the Dhamma and that is our refuge. Develop the understanding that can eventually eradicate defilements, and this can be accumulated from life to life.> (end quote). Reading and studying with samvega, a sense of urgency. This cannot arise on command. We may cling to it and take it for self. It depends on our confidence, saddhaa. When we see the value of the Dhamma and we have more understanding confidence can grow. Then there are conditions for samvega without having to think of it. Also in the course of life kamma produces different kinds of vipaaka, such as seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions. These moments are very short, they do not last. We react to vipaaka with akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Understanding that we cannot choose what we experience helps us to accept vipaaka with patience, and then there can be kusala cittas instead of feeling low with akusala cittas. When feeling low we accumulate more akusala and that is not helpful. Remember Kh Sujin's words: develop understanding with cheerfulness and courage. -------- Nina. #114803 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) nilovg Dear Alex, Op 28-apr-2011, om 1:42 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Sense of self which we have can be either used properly, or misused > in akusala way. If one doesn't have the desire, one will not follow > the path. When it is no longer needed, the desire is abandoned > (SN51.15). One doesn't contradict the other. Clinging to the Dhamma > is required until path of Arhatship. ------- N: Your quote about clinging asks for the Pali term to eliminate misunderstandings. Chanda is translanted as desire, but this may be kusala or akusala. We have to be clear about it what is meant in the text. It arises with the eight akusala cittas rooted in lobha and the two akusala cittas rooted in dosa. It arises with all sobhana cittas. Quote from my Cetasikas: It is one of the iddhipaadas, roads to success, and among the enlightenment factors. Thus, it is important when reading texts to know for which reality stands the term desire. A sense of self cannot be helpful. From the beginning we should remember that detachment is the goal. ------- Nina. #114804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? nilovg Dear Philip, Op 27-apr-2011, om 16:13 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > You said seeing falls away, gone forever, this I understand. But > you imply the same thing about craving. I think there is a tendency > to say "gone forever" about akusala citta when that is not true, it > accumulates and also sometimes conditions kamma that gives rise to > results in the future. I think "gone forever never to return" and > ""what's past is past" is true of seeing, but not quite as true of > craving or other javanas ------- N: Each citta falls away completely, never to return. This goes for seeing but also for kusala citta or akusala citta. True, accumulated inclinations are in each citta, and thus they arise and fall way together with the citta. These accumulations are not something static that last. New accumulations are added on when kusala citta or akusala citta arises. There is constant change in these accumulations. How these exactly operate is hard to understand, but we know in our daily life that sometimes, quite unforeseeable, defilements arise. They are conditioned by the latent tendencies. The citta with such or such defilement falls away and then there is more defilement added on to the latent tendencies. This can enhance a sense of urgency. Nina. #114805 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(1) sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- On Thu, 28/4/11, Lukas wrote: >L: Well, I cant find it. Could u give a links. Also I think I could miss some fresh discussion's reports with Acharn here on DSG. Could u(or someone else) also give me the links? .... S: This was the link to my report after our chat: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/114290 For the other links, if it doesn't work for you to put in "sarah sujin bangkok" and check the origins of the threads, you could also go to www.dhammastudygroup.org where Connie and (now) Ken H help back up all the archives which you can download and scroll through very quickly and easily without needing an internet connection then. Sorry, rather busy to find all the links... Metta Sarah ======= #114806 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Ken H ><. . .> >> KO: The commentary speaks for itself that conceiving of views is because of a >>self view on the concepts etc and not because there is no absolute reality of >>people. >> >----------------- > >KH: Your interpretation of the commentary sounds right as far as it goes. >Concepts can be experienced without wrong view. If that is all you are saying >then, of course, you are right. I think everyone at DSG has agreed on that. > >If, however, you are going so far as to say concepts are absolute realities then > >you are absolutely wrong. > KO: are you saying there is no father and no morther. There are not paramatha dhamma but does not mean there are not dhamma, does not mean they dont exist, they exist as a concept but not as a paramatha dhamma. >----------------------------- >> KO: Seeing nama and rupa which is necesary to attain supradmundane stage is not >> >>about discarding concepts or conventional. The ancient master and texts are >>clear in their instructions and have never reject concepts or conventional as >>part of the path. >> >---------------------------- > >KH: In what way are they part of the path? >----------------------------------- >> KO: So should we think we are better than the ancient >masters because dhamma is not in the text and is in our understanding. >----------------------------------- > >KH: In what way have the ancient masters said concepts were part of the path? KO: many ways, you could read Visud where the meditation subjects are mostly concepts. Or practising of virture where the objects are at times concepts, beings and not paramatha dhamma. There are many instances where jhanas are basis of insight where the objects of jhanas are concepts. Udana Commentary, pg 967 Kaccana, this venerable is Ven <. The above shows jhanas as part of the path, if you think the objects of the jhanas for the contemplation of body before it becomes as a basis of insight, is not concept, please do quote the text. ---------------------------------------------------------- >> KO: Think about what I said whether what you have learn is in line with the >>doctrine. >---------------------------------------------------------- > >KH: But what have you said? Have you said the path (right thought, right speech, > >. . . right concentration) is composed partly of conditioned dhammas and partly >of concepts? > > >Or have you said that people and other concepts are absolute realities with >inherent characteristics, and can accordingly be experienced by path >consciousness? > > >(I disagree with both, of course.) KO: During mundane 8NP, the development of concentration is concept, righ action, speech or thoughts objects of these could be concepts or paramatha dhamma. Only during suparmundane than it is paramatha dhamma. > >--------------------------------------------- >> KO: The next few days, if I got time, I will type out the commentary text >>talking about why there is kamma in killing even though dhamma is momentary. >-------------------------- > >KH: I see that you have done that now, thanks. Does it somehow relate to the >topic of this conversation? Do you understand it to be saying that concepts are >realities? Do you understand it to be saying that concepts bear the inherent >characteristics, anicca dukkha and anatta? > > >Whichever it is, I am 100% sure you are mistaken. KO: as I said many times ot DSGers, to Sarah, to Jon where in the text said where in the text said the mundane 8NP is all nama and rupa. Concepts are used in the texts to describe, anatta, anicca and dukkha. You should read more commentaries before starting to make such intepretation that is not in accordance with the commentaries positions. You are not totally wrong about nama and rupa neither you are totally right about concepts. If you wish to read commentaries book and willing to learn from what they described, I am most happy to buy them for you give it to you as as gift and will also specially send to you so that you could read them for yourself and make your own judgement. Dont be influence by anyone, just base on your own judgement when you read the commentary with an open mind. Ken O #114807 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:11 pm Subject: Feeding Energy! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to Feed the Energy Link to Awakening? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding and cannot survive without food, so are the 7 Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot survive without feeding... And what is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen Energy and also feeding of the very completion by advance of any already arisen Energy Link to Awakening? There are these 3 elements of: Initiative, Launching into effort and Endurance ... Frequently giving careful and rational attention to them, is feeding the arising of any unarisen Energy Link to Awakening and also feeding of the fulfillment of any already arisen Energy Link to Awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs the emergence of any yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening & which also hinders any already arisen Energy Link from reaching any fulfillment by deliberate development? There are these three elements of: Initiative, Launching and Endurance ... Not giving frequent, careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much and often; is the starving that prevents any unarisen Energy Link to Awakening from arising and also blocks any already arisen Energy Link to Awakening from reaching any complete fulfillment by training & development. Comments from the classical commentaries: Enthusiastic and eager exertion is the characteristic of the Energy Link to Awakening (Viriya-sambojjhanga). Effort producing advantage is the goal of the Energy quality. Activity overcoming mental slack is the manifestation of this Energy Link to Awakening. While too lazy to do what should be done simply ask yourself: What is missing here??? Is it the element of mental initiative wishing to get up that is missing here now, or is it the element of actual bodily launching into effort that is missing here, or is it the element of endurance, persistence, perseverance and stamina that is missing here now? This discrimination - in itself - has the capacity to gradually stir up and induce energy! Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the Energy are: 1: Reflection on the long-term dangers of inactivity such as hell... 2: Reviewing the benefits to be gained by energetic praxis. 3: Remembering that no journey can ever be ended by a lazy one. 4: Giving credit to the good givers of the alms-food received. 5: Honouring the Greatness of the prior effort of the Master. 6: Honouring the Greatness of the prior effort of the Lineage. 7: Removing laxity by perceiving light, change of posture and open air. 8: Avoidance of slack, lazy, sluggish, negligent and careless people. 9: Friendship with enthusiastic, energetic and persistent people. 10: Reviewing the Four Right Efforts often and systematically. 11: Commitment and resolute determination to arouse more energy... There is bodily energy and there is mental energy! Both are a crucial for all progress towards any advantageous state. Awakening is Waking Up from sloth and daydreaming! Energy is the Fifth Mental Perfection: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Enthusiastic_is_Energy.htm Curing Laziness and lethargy: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Curing_Lethargy_and_Laziness.htm Get Moving Right Now: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Arousal_Get_Up_and_Going.htm <....> Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Feeding Energy! #114808 From: "philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your reply. > > You said seeing falls away, gone forever, this I understand. But > > you imply the same thing about craving. I think there is a tendency > > to say "gone forever" about akusala citta when that is not true, it > > accumulates and also sometimes conditions kamma that gives rise to > > results in the future. I think "gone forever never to return" and > > ""what's past is past" is true of seeing, but not quite as true of > > craving or other javanas > ------- > N: Each citta falls away completely, never to return. This goes for > seeing but also for kusala citta or akusala citta. > True, accumulated inclinations are in each citta, and thus they arise > and fall way together with the citta. These accumulations are not > something static that last. New accumulations are added on when > kusala citta or akusala citta arises. There is constant change in > these accumulations. Ph: Yes, this is what I want to stress. That the javanas accumulate, and this can lead to the deeepening of harmful tendencies in this life and to woeful results in lives to come. It is very attractive to reduce the world, existence, everything, to one citta and surely that is what the panna of the deeply developed understanding does. But the Buddha does indeed warn again and again of the results of bad deeds. I still feel that A. Sujin and her students somehow like to minimize that aspect of the Dhamma in favour of contemplation of the very deeply liberating (when actually attained) understanding of all reduced to one citta! > How these exactly operate is hard to understand, but we know in our > daily life that sometimes, quite unforeseeable, defilements arise. > They are conditioned by the latent tendencies. The citta with such or > such defilement falls away and then there is more defilement added on > to the latent tendencies. This can enhance a sense of urgency. Ph: Yes, I hope it does. I feel, honestly speaking, that I don't get a sense of much urgency with respect to harmful deeds from students of A. Sujin, some more than others. Perhaps this is because they are not prone to bad deeds and of course they point out self-view and attachment involved in urgency that is not properly understood, fine, ok, I understand that, but still, would like to sense more urgency from my Dhamma friends with respect to harmful behaviour. But won't insist on it, I am enjoying mostly asking questions, and I love to hear A.Sujin talk about satipatthana in daily life. (Just don't believe, yet, that it provides enough protection from the tendencies that are always pushing people into destructive channels...) I hope Adam gains access to the Buddha's teaching in places other than DSG so he can reflect on different ways of approaching the Dhamma, and not only A. Sujin, though I still think her's is the deepest and best for those who do not have strong accumulations for doing harmful deeds. I only listen to her during periods when my coventional sila is on very firm ground, basic wisdom is able to tell me when such a period is going on. "Period going on" is a concept of course, but basic helpful wisdom plays in that arena...there are many degree of panna, and of kusala. One thing A. Sujin said that I like very much is that each of us must know what degree of kusala is suitable for us, but at other times it feels that only deep and rarefied degrees of kusala are valued by her students (and her.) Mixed signals there, a lot of the time... Back to question mode. Please feel free to have the last word on this topic, for now, I will read your post and Sarah's and continue to reflect on the ways I am right! (Haha...that's a joke, maybe...) Metta, Phil #114809 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ----- <. . .> >> KH: If, however, you are going so far as to say concepts are absolute realities then you are absolutely wrong. >> > KO: are you saying there is no father and no morther. ----- KH: Yes I am, but bear in mind that we are at DSG and we are talking about satipatthana. At other places, or in other contexts, I wouldn't say that. ------------ > KO: There are not paramatha dhamma but does not mean there are not dhamma, does not mean they dont exist, they exist as a concept but not as a paramatha dhamma. ------------ KH: When we are talking about the Dhamma there is only the presently arisen citta with its cetasikas and rupa. Nothing else exists, either as a concept or as anything else. --------------------- <. . .> >>KH: In what way have the ancient masters said concepts were part of the path? >> > KO: many ways, you could read Visud where the meditation subjects are mostly concepts. Or practising of virture where the objects are at times concepts, beings and not paramatha dhamma. --------------------- KH: You are talking about moments of dana sila and samatha, but not about moments of vipassana. Only vipassana is the path; those other kusala moments are not. --------------------------- > KO: There are many instances where jhanas are basis of insight where the objects of jhanas are concepts. --------------------------- KH: That's a step removed, isn't it? The concepts themselves are never part of the path, and they are never the arammana (object) of the path. ------------------------------- <. . .> > KO: if you think the objects of the jhanas for the contemplation of body before it becomes as a basis of insight, is not concept, please do quote the text. -------------------------------- KH: Why would I think such a ridiculous thing? Many cittas (not just jhana cittas) take a concept as their object, and yet all cittas can be objects of insight. ---------------------------------------- <. . .> > KO: During mundane 8NP, ---------------------------------------- KH: Let's synchronise our definitions. The "mundane path" is a form of vipassana known as satipatthana. Satipatthana is a citta that contains six (sometimes seven) mundane path factors. The "supramundane path" is also a form of vipassana. It contains eight supramundane path factors. Can we agree on that? ------------------------- > KO: the development of concentration is concept, righ action, speech or thoughts objects of these could be concepts or paramatha dhamma. Only during suparmundane than it is paramatha dhamma. ------------------------- KH: That is where you are espousing a theory of your own. According the texts, the major difference between the two paths is that the mundane experiences a conditioned paramattha dhamma, while the supramundane experiences an unconditioned paramattha dhamma (nibbana). Neither path experiences a concept. Only wrong paths - pertaining to the two extremes - experience concepts. (Concepts can also be experienced by ordinary (non-path) cittas, but we are not talking about them here.) ------------------- <. . .> > KO: as I said many times ot DSGers, to Sarah, to Jon where in the text said where in the text said the mundane 8NP is all nama and rupa. Concepts are used in the texts to describe, anatta, anicca and dukkha. ----------------- KH: The fact that concepts can be used to describe dhammas, or the characteristics of dhammas, has *nothing* to do with what you have been saying. You have been saying that concepts were either part of, or objects of, the path. There has never been any disagreement over whether concepts could be used to refer to dhammas. The word "citta" for example is a concept that designates a type of nama. The word "person" - when spoken by the Buddha - was a concept that designated five categories of dhammas momentarily arising together. Not only single words, but also whole stories, can be used to describe dhammas (by way of simile). There has never been any disagreement over this. But you are using it as evidence of a conventional path. And that is simply not logical. There is no connection. Ken H #114810 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, Jon, all, > > The path is gradual and it is fabricated. This is not Mahayana. The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. To abandon the path is like to jump off the raft in the middle of the sea, or not to embark on the journey to the other shore. Only when one has cross the sea, only then one lets go of the raft. Things done in the begining of the path may be different from where one ultimately arrives, but without doing those things in the begining, one would not arrive at the destination. > > So before one reaches non-doing, one must do things that will lead one there. Same with the path. Sense of self which we have can be either used properly, or misused in akusala way. If one doesn't have the desire, one will not follow the path. When it is no longer needed, the desire is abandoned (SN51.15). One doesn't contradict the other. Clinging to the Dhamma is required until path of Arhatship. > > A parable of ladder leading to some place: > To climb the ladder you need to cling to the step, and let go it when you cling to the higher step. Without firm basis in clinging, one will simply fall off, or not climb higher. As one climbs higher, one clings to higher and higher steps. Then when one has climbed to the top, one can let go of the ladder and proceed to the destination. > If one would try to grab the step that is too far above, one will either be unable to, or lose one's balance. > > In Dhamma it is the same. One clings to the certain stage, and then when it has fulfilled the purpose, one lets it go and attach to the next stage. If one doesn't properly cling, and cling hard, then one will simply not progress in Dhamma. One will be blown by the strongest current, which is kilesas for us. Just like one was being blown in samsara for all this time... Thanks for the good thoughts, Alex. I think the understanding that is reflected here is very important and helpful. One can have theoretical knowledge of the end state, but that doesn't give one direct experience - only following the steps of the path will get one there. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114811 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon and Rob E > > In supramudane, the path factors come as one, not so for mundane. So it is not > correct to say the path factor comes in unison in mundane factor as there > could be right concentration without the right speech, right livelihood and > right action. It is not necessary to have right panna to arise also because > when one applied right action at a situation it can be without panna. > > Nowhere in the text said that if panna don't arise, it is not known as mundane > right path factor. On the other hand, the text said about mundane and > supramundane virture, concentration and insight and those with cankers are > mundane and those without are suparmundane. Thank you, this is very helpful to clarify the different understanding of the mundane and supramundane path factors and how they operate. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #114812 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > > >Thank you for this description. It seems that this explanation does acknowledge > > >both the intention and the action, as well as the body of the person who is > >killed. While it does not assign agency to a "person" and shows how no such > >agency can exist, it does admit agency to the mental and physical forces that > >cause the action, as well as the intention. Do you think I have interpreted this > > > > > >passage correctly? > > KO: Yes the text attribute agency (being) though not self is the cause of the > actions. > > I am not sure what you mean by intentions as intention could mean vitakka or the > wholesome and unwholesome cetasikas by your meaning. There is one thing for > sure, during the act of killing, hatred (ill will) that it is the root the > generate the action is neglible in kamma effect, the kamma commit is the act > through the body door. That is very interesting to know, and seems to contradict what is said that all kamma is the intention/volition to commit the act. > Other roots can be dependent support condition for the act killing for example > (but not roots that arise together with the act itself), those craving of sense > pleasures could when suddenly taken away could cause a violent act that cause > murder > > > Other unwholesome cesikas which are not roots could also be dependent support > condition for killing like miserliness which could killing due to a fear that > someone wanted to take away one's stuff. Conceit which is not a root but > could be dependent support condition for the act of killing due to one's pride These sound like interesting possible factors. I don't understand well enough how these all come into play, or how they relate to what I understand to be the formula of "kamma = intention or volition." I think my understanding is that kamma is cetana. Is that correct in your view? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #114813 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Alex, and Jon) - In a message dated 4/29/2011 1:10:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, Jon, all, > > The path is gradual and it is fabricated. This is not Mahayana. The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. To abandon the path is like to jump off the raft in the middle of the sea, or not to embark on the journey to the other shore. Only when one has cross the sea, only then one lets go of the raft. Things done in the begining of the path may be different from where one ultimately arrives, but without doing those things in the begining, one would not arrive at the destination. > > So before one reaches non-doing, one must do things that will lead one there. Same with the path. Sense of self which we have can be either used properly, or misused in akusala way. If one doesn't have the desire, one will not follow the path. When it is no longer needed, the desire is abandoned (SN51.15). One doesn't contradict the other. Clinging to the Dhamma is required until path of Arhatship. > > A parable of ladder leading to some place: > To climb the ladder you need to cling to the step, and let go it when you cling to the higher step. Without firm basis in clinging, one will simply fall off, or not climb higher. As one climbs higher, one clings to higher and higher steps. Then when one has climbed to the top, one can let go of the ladder and proceed to the destination. > If one would try to grab the step that is too far above, one will either be unable to, or lose one's balance. > > In Dhamma it is the same. One clings to the certain stage, and then when it has fulfilled the purpose, one lets it go and attach to the next stage. If one doesn't properly cling, and cling hard, then one will simply not progress in Dhamma. One will be blown by the strongest current, which is kilesas for us. Just like one was being blown in samsara for all this time... Thanks for the good thoughts, Alex. I think the understanding that is reflected here is very important and helpful. One can have theoretical knowledge of the end state, but that doesn't give one direct experience - only following the steps of the path will get one there. Best, Robert E. ================================ I also agree with you, Robert, that this is a wonderful post of Alex's, one of great help to me! I love the sutta you reference, Alex, and I love the ladder parable. (Was that parable the Buddha's or yours? In any case, I think it is superb.) With metta, Howard "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" " _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #114814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? nilovg Dear Philip (and Lukas, Adam), Op 29-apr-2011, om 1:12 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Yes, this is what I want to stress. That the javanas > accumulate, and this can lead to the deeepening of harmful > tendencies in this life and to woeful results in lives to come. It > is very attractive to reduce the world, existence, everything, to > one citta and surely that is what the panna of the deeply developed > understanding does. ------ N:People may think of the "one-citta view" as a particular view, but there is only one citta at a time, there cannot be more than one. When seeing , hearing, defining what is seen or heard now, we can begin to understand this. -------- > Ph: But the Buddha does indeed warn again and again of the results > of bad deeds. I still feel that A. Sujin and her students somehow > like to minimize that aspect of the Dhamma in favour of > contemplation of the very deeply liberating (when actually > attained) understanding of all reduced to one citta! -------- N: Seeing the danger of akusala, and not being neglectful, I often hear this in her talks. In Chiengmai she said that when akusala citta arises now there is no pa~n~naa that sees the danger of akusala. She said: pa~n~naa is the light , it helps to perform all kinds of kusala, the perfections. When one has true respect for the Buddha one studies and understands the Dhamma, and practises in accordance with the Dhamma. ------- > > > N: > How these exactly operate is hard to understand, but we know > in our > > daily life that sometimes, quite unforeseeable, defilements arise. > > They are conditioned by the latent tendencies. The citta with > such or > > such defilement falls away and then there is more defilement > added on > > to the latent tendencies. This can enhance a sense of urgency. > > Ph: Yes, I hope it does. I feel, honestly speaking, that I don't > get a sense of much urgency with respect to harmful deeds from > students of A. Sujin, some more than others. Perhaps this is > because they are not prone to bad deeds ------- N: Everybody who is not an ariyan can be in circumstances that he commits akusala kamma he did not think himself capable of. When we have more understanding of the latent tendencies we see more the danger of akusala and that in itself is samvega. But this is not 'us'. Kh Sujin often reminds us: we do not know when we shall die and what our next life will be. -------- > > > Ph: I hope Adam gains access to the Buddha's teaching in places > other than DSG so he can reflect on different ways of approaching > the Dhamma, and not only A. Sujin.. ------- N: What she often stresses: the Dhamma is our teacher. The Buddha taught the Dhamma so that people would develop 'their own' understanding. We should not regard her or others as teachers we should follow. That is wrong. Her whole attitude is like this: she does not want people to be attached to her. Attachment to a teacher is harmful. When quoting her we weigh things up and compare her words with the Tipi.taka. We can find out ourselves whether what she explains is in accordance with the Tipi.taka. I am listening now to talks in Chiengmai and I notice that she lets others who assist her speak more and more. People who do not understand Thai do not know this. We can listen to anybody who speaks true Dhamma. In Chiengmai A. Sujin spoke about drinking: "One is attached to the taste of it. A sotaapanna abstains from drinking, but before that, who can force someone not to drink? Laypeople can develop satipa.t.thaana in their lay life and there can be siila that is nicca siila, non-constant siila. One can abstain now and then, or in this or that lifespan. This is not the same as the siila of the sotaapanna. Some people use transcendental meditation or some other meditation (in this case micchaa samaadhi, not the samaadhi which is right concentration leading to jhaana or right concentration of the eightfold Path) as a means to stop drinking. It can help for a while or for one lifespan. We do not know what our next life will be. ------- Nina. #114815 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:14 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ================================ > I also agree with you, Robert, that this is a wonderful post of > Alex's, one of great help to me! I love the sutta you reference, Alex, and I > love the ladder parable. (Was that parable the Buddha's or yours? In any case, > I think it is superb.) :-) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - #114816 From: "colette" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:55 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) ksheri3 Hi Alex, Robert E., HOLD IT! (don't laugh too loud Robert, at what I'm about to put forth since I just got done with commenting on the fact that "JUSTICE, in our society today, is just a theory and thus a manifestation of the paper THE THEORY OF JUSTICE, plus another paper called THEORY THEORY TO THE MAX, this has reference to the theory of the MIND-ONLY school of Buddhism because it is all PROJECTION from a mind, any mind. Could be "this mind" or it could be "that mind"? Could be any mind?) Alex: "The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. " colette: leads you where? JUST WHERE DOES THIS ALLEGED "PATH" LEAD A PERSON? ------------- Alex: "Only when one has cross the sea, only then one lets go of the raft. " colette: you are suggesting, THEN, that I have this fixation on and control of THE CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY. I mean a bus gets me to where I'm going, in Chicago. In this case the Bus and the Raft are the same thing. I AM NOT CLINGING TO THE BUS AND HAVE NO BOTHER CONSIDERING THAT THE BUS WILL EXIST TOMORROW. After all, I walked from PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY TO East Los Angeles in a day so that I could get in line at a DEPT. OF HUMAN SERVICES OFFICE that would help me (white middle suburbia of Santa Monica and WEST LOS ANGELES would have nothing to do with me) I also walked from PHOENIX ARIZONA to FLAGGSTAFF ARIZONA to GALLUP NEW MEXICO, later that same year, 1982. I am forced to walk almost everywhere since people keep HATRED so close to their hearts and close to their minds. Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. --------------------------- gotta go, love the thoughts here in this post. Can't wait to eventually read Howard's addative to the mix. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Alex. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello RobertE, Jon, all, > > > > The path is gradual and it is fabricated. This is not Mahayana. The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. To abandon the path is like to jump off the raft in the middle of the sea, or not to embark on the journey to the other shore. Only when one has cross the sea, only then one lets go of the raft. Things done in the begining of the path may be different from where one ultimately arrives, but without doing those things in the begining, one would not arrive at the destination. > > > > So before one reaches non-doing, one must do things that will lead one there. Same with the path. Sense of self which we have can be either used properly, or misused in akusala way. If one doesn't have the desire, one will not follow the path. When it is no longer needed, the desire is abandoned (SN51.15). One doesn't contradict the other. Clinging to the Dhamma is required until path of Arhatship. > > > > A parable of ladder leading to some place: > > To climb the ladder you need to cling to the step, and let go it when you cling to the higher step. Without firm basis in clinging, one will simply fall off, or not climb higher. As one climbs higher, one clings to higher and higher steps. Then when one has climbed to the top, one can let go of the ladder and proceed to the destination. > > If one would try to grab the step that is too far above, one will either be unable to, or lose one's balance. > > > > In Dhamma it is the same. One clings to the certain stage, and then when it has fulfilled the purpose, one lets it go and attach to the next stage. If one doesn't properly cling, and cling hard, then one will simply not progress in Dhamma. One will be blown by the strongest current, which is kilesas for us. Just like one was being blown in samsara for all this time... > > Thanks for the good thoughts, Alex. I think the understanding that is reflected here is very important and helpful. One can have theoretical knowledge of the end state, but that doesn't give one direct experience - only following the steps of the path will get one there. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = > #114817 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Colette (and Alex) - In a message dated 4/29/2011 4:08:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. --------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- Quite true. It's called "drowning"! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- gotta go, love the thoughts here in this post. Can't wait to eventually read Howard's addative to the mix. ----------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Colette, but what I wrote above was an additive of mine that's maybe not so tasty. LOL! ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. Actually, the crossing of the sea includes the letting go of the raft. The sea is a sea of grasping, grasping onto all sorts of things - but staying with that raft eventually results in the scuttling of all of that, the raft included, as soon as the far shore is reached. The far shore is the "place" of freedom, with no grasping at all, because it is empty of any (and every) thing graspable. #114818 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:22 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Alex, Robert E., > > HOLD IT! (don't laugh too loud Robert, at what I'm about to put forth since I just got done with commenting on the fact that "JUSTICE, in our society today, is just a theory and thus a manifestation of the paper THE THEORY OF JUSTICE, plus another paper called THEORY THEORY TO THE MAX, this has reference to the theory of the MIND-ONLY school of Buddhism because it is all PROJECTION from a mind, any mind. Could be "this mind" or it could be "that mind"? Could be any mind?) If justice is a projection of mind, then projecting justice may be a good thing. Let's project justice along with metta and call it a nice day. > Alex: "The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. " > > colette: leads you where? JUST WHERE DOES THIS ALLEGED "PATH" LEAD A PERSON? To the goal. The path is a skillful means, which is what Buddhism is about - what means will liberate you from suffering. > ------------- > > Alex: "Only when one has cross the sea, only then one lets go of the raft. " ... > Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. If you want to drown, that's a good strategy. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114819 From: "philip" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:41 pm Subject: Sampayutta dhammas philofillet Hi Nina and all I'm interested in p. 152-153 of SPD. Could you explain a liile more why citta and cetasika are associated dhammas (sampayutta) but seeing and visible object are not? Seeing cannot arise without vusible object, right? So why aren't they associated in the way citta and itsaccompanying cetasikas are? Because nama knows an object? Is it through knowing that citta and cetasika are sampayatta dhammas? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil p.s thanks for your additional comments in the "seeing falls away but craving?" thread. I'll leave my "pet peeves" for now and return to questions for as long as conditions permit....:) #114820 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? kenhowardau Hi Nina and all, ---- <. . .> > N: N: Seeing the danger of akusala, and not being neglectful, I often hear this in her talks. In Chiengmai she said that when akusala citta arises now there is no pa~n~naa that sees the danger of akusala. She said: pa~n~naa is the light , it helps to perform all kinds of kusala, the perfections. When one has true respect for the Buddha one studies and understands the Dhamma, and practises in accordance with the Dhamma. ----- KH: That was very well put, thanks Nina. It made me wonder how often in previous lifetimes I have rejected the true Dhamma. Alternative paths belonging to the two extremes can be so tempting. At first glance alternative paths offer promises of unlimited greatness. Reading about devas, for example, we can imagine ourselves with light shining like the sun from our bodies. Such aspirations seem silly to us now, of course, but only because we have been fortunate enough to have listened to the Dhamma. In future lifetimes conditions might be such that we will reject it again, and the urge to become a better person will be irresistible, again. In any case, let's have right understanding now. It's the only way. Ken H #114821 From: "philip" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:20 pm Subject: Love as a motivating citta philofillet Hi all I would like to tell you about an e-mail exchange with an old friend about emotions. She us a poet and values grand emotions and said my analytical approach to them did them a disservice to them. I told her I am no longer interested in some great Love but am instead interested in love that is momentary and motivates moments of caring through action. I told her of a good example. The other day I was cleaning up our apartment, finished my room and the kitchen. Considered whether I should also vaccuum Naomi's room (for reasons some of you know, we are more like best friends/roomates than husband and wife now.) I had other things to do so thought nah, let her do it herself. But as I started to store away the vaccuum cleaner, something motivated a sudden change, I went and vaccuuned her room too, I didn't want her to sleep in a dusty room. Afterwards of course there was self-congrarulation but that one moment, that one generous citta (or many) that motivated vaccuuming her room, that is the only "love" that interests me now, love with reaching out to actually do something to help. Maybe I can get that across to my poet friend! :) Metta, Phil #114822 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:39 pm Subject: Floated by Joy :-)! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Joy (Pîti) Link to Awakening! The Joy Link to Awakening (P"ti-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of suffusing contentment, and the property of gladdening satisfaction. This Joy Link to Awakening manifests as mental elation, which can reach five successively increasing degrees of intensity: 1: Minor Joy, which can raise the hair on the body when thrilled. 2: Momentary Joy, which flashes like lightning at various occasions. 3: Showering Joy, which breaks over the body repeatedly like sea-waves. 4: Uplifting Joy, which can be strong enough to even levitate the body. 5: Pervading Joy, which is like a heavy sponge all saturated with water. Visuddhimagga IV 94-9 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (āsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Joy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, on disillusion, on ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then can neither any mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who has aroused enthusiastic energy, there arises a joy not of this world & the Joy Link to Awakening emerges there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Any one convinced by understanding of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, gets an enthusiastic sense of the sublime good goal of Nibbāna & gains the gladness connected, joined, and fused with this Dhamma! In anyone gladdened, Joy is born. The body of the Joyous is calmed. One of calm body experiences pleasure and happiness! The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. The concentrated mind sees and knows things as they really are. This brings disgust and disillusion, which enables full, and direct experience of mental release. It is in this way that Joy indeed is a factor leading to Awakening! MN [i 37-8], AN [iii 21-3], DN [iii 21-3] <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <....> #114823 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:21 pm Subject: Evidence that Minds, Brains and even Neuron Clusters can connect over distance via emisson of quantum-entangled photons! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Minds, Brains & Neurons can Shine & Blink Light! (To Others!)(Literally speaking!) The Buddha said ~2500 years ago: Shining bright, Bhikkhus, is this mind, yet it is indeed obstructed by external defilements. Luminous indeed, is that mind, when it is safely released and freed from alien impurities. http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.8-10.htm Now evidently proven true: Brain Research Volume 1388, 4 May 2011, Pages 77-88 Photon emissions from human brain and cell culture exposed to distally rotating magnetic fields shared by separate light-stimulated brains and cells Blake T. Dotta a, b, c, Carly A. Bucknerc, d, Robert M. Lafreniea, b, c, d, e and Michael A. Persingera, b, c. a Department of Biology, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada P3E 2C6 b Behavioural Neuroscience Program, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada P3E 2C6 c Program in Biomolecular Sciences, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada P3E 2C6 d Regional Cancer Program, Sudbury Regional Hospital, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada P3E 5J1 e Northern Ontario School of Medicine, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada P3E 2C6 Accepted 1 March 2011. Available online 9 March 2011. Abstract Light flashes delivered to one aggregate of cells evoked increased photon emission in another aggregate of cells maintained in the dark in another room if both aggregates shared the same temporospatial configuration of changing rate, circular magnetic fields. During the presentation of the same shared circumcerebral magnetic fields increases in photon emission occurred beside the heads of human volunteers if others in another room saw light flashes. Both cellular and human photon emissions during the light flashes did not occur when the shared magnetic fields were not present. The summed energy emissions from the dark location during light stimulation to others was about 10-11 W/m2 and calculated to be in the order of 10- 20 J per cell which is coupled to membrane function. These results support accumulating data that under specific conditions changes in photon emissions may reflect intercellular and interbrain communications with potential quantum-like properties. Research highlights We showed photon emission from cells "stressed" by removal from incubation. Cells in the dark magnetically yoked to distant cells that receive light flashes emit photons. The amount of photon emission changed with different magnetic angular velocities. Photon emissions to brief experimental fields were similar to natural fields for greater durations. Human subjects in the dark magnetically yoked to distant subjects receiving light emit photons. Full text here: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/Brain.Photon.Entanglement.pdf ____________________________________________________________________________ NeuroQuantology, Vol 7, No 4 Evidence of Macroscopic Quantum Entanglement During Double Quantitative Electroencephalographic Measurements of Friends vs. Strangers. Blake T. Dotta, Bryce P. Mulligan, Mathew D. Hunter, Michael A. Persinger Abstract: One indication of entanglement between two particles is a change in parity or spin in one when the other is changed in order to maintain constancy of the system. Our experiment was designed to discern if this phenomenon occurred at the macroscopic level between the electroencephalographic activities of brains of pairs of people, separated by about 75 m, with various degrees of "entanglement". About 50% of the variance of the "simultaneous" electroencephalographic power was shared between pairs of brains. Pairs of strangers were positively correlated within alpha and gamma bands within the temporal and frontal lobes. However the power levels within the alpha and theta bands were negatively correlated for pairs of people who had a protracted history of interaction. The latter result might be considered support for the hypothesis of macroscopic entanglement. Full text here: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/Correlated.EEG.pdf Sooner or later even remote & counter-intuitive truths surface ;-) Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #114824 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:03 am Subject: Re: Sampayutta dhammas szmicio Hi Phil, Nina, all I am also interested in hearing the answer on ur question. Especially the difference between sampayutta (associated) and sahagata (accompanied). Any difference?. As I remember I discussed it long ago with Connie. Best wishes Lukas p.s Phil, Yesterday I broke 5th percept again. I would be grateful if u discuss with me and brother that on the group. I know that I am drinking cause I like the pleasant situations when spending time with friends. I am very addicted to have a nice time with friends. > I'm interested in p. 152-153 of SPD. Could you explain a liile more why citta and cetasika are associated dhammas (sampayutta) #114825 From: "antony272b2" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Self-view & Computer Rage antony272b2 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Antony, > > --- On Sat, 16/4/11, antony272b2 wrote: > > > I'd better clarify my question. > > > > > >A:For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? > > > Antony: I'm experiencing a phobia of intense fear bordering on terror that I'll get permanent RSI if I force the keyboard or mouse to complete something on the computer. My question about self-view is looking for an alternative to saying "You won't let me do it!" when there is no evidence that there is a "you" present that is stopping me from doing what I think I want. > .... > S: The problem is mind-created. It is the thinking and fear, more thinking, more fear, without any understanding of conditioned dhammas. We get lost in all our various stories about ourselves and our problems, not realising that it such thinking, such illusion, that is creating the difficulties. We forget all about conditioned dhammas which are anatta. > .... > >Antony: As I said, in hindsight what seems to have stopped me from completing the task was strong wise intuition that it was for the best. I say "But you won't tell me why!" which brings on the computer rage. I need to find an alternative to addressing a being "you". > .... Antony: Could the terror be moral dread (ottappa)? Thanks / Antony. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #114826 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 30-apr-2011, om 2:53 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > In any case, let's have right understanding now. It's the only way. ------ N: Good reminder. And meant as a reminder, because we cannot have it at will. I just heard Kh Sujin speak about the goal of listening: listen in order to understand so that there will be pa~n~naa that eradicates defilements. The goal of jhana: to develop pa~n~naa that subdues defilements, the goal of vipassanaa: to develop pa~n~naa that eradicates defilements. Now I have your eye, I feel so much appreciation that you are helping backing up the archives. It takes extra time and effort, and I am so happy Sarah mentioned this so that we can have anumodana. It is kusala and it can become a perfection when accompanied by pa~n~naa. Nina. #114827 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:10 am Subject: Re: Sampayutta dhammas philofillet Hi Lukas > Phil, Yesterday I broke 5th percept again. I would be grateful if u discuss with me and brother that on the group. I know that I am drinking cause I like the pleasant situations when spending time with friends. > I am very addicted to have a nice time with friends. I tried to Skype you a few times but for some reason on i-phone it automatically puts Japan's country code when it calls so it fails. I will have to call from my computer...one of these days. In the meantime one nice teaching if the Buddha. He says thst everytine we abstain from drinking we provide protection to immeasyrablebeings. Maybe that means if you provide to your friends an example of a person who can hang out with them and drink Red Bull or coffee instead of beers (or bears) that might inspure one of them to. stop drinking, and that will spread to other people. By heroically making the very very difficult abstention from drinking (of course it is the vieati cetasika and virya and panna and other factors that do it) you will help to prevent a lot of suffering. But I know it's hard. In Japan alcohol is so central to socializing, it's hard to enjoy when everyone else is drinking. I usually socialuze at Starbucks now... Also remember that the Buddha advised you not to drink. Our great teacher. Don't you have enough respect for him to follow his advice? I ignored it for around 6 years too and paid for it. There is never a happy ending when alcohol is involved, even one beer. I will call you and explain a kind of samattha (maybe) meditation that has helped me a lot, the mental pleasure is easier to have and better than beer, honestly. Metta, Phil #114828 From: "azita" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:18 am Subject: Re: Problems again gazita2002 hallo Lucas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Azita, (all) > Yes very helpful answers. But i need some detailed explanation also cause I dont get all the answers. Is it possible to still pose some questions to Acharn when there is opportunity? > > p.s > Today I drink 3 bears and smoke some cigarets. It looks like I' ve never learn that this is not good to drink.Could u ask Acharn what about drinking and dosa after that? How to give up drinking? azita: Achan's answer to the first part of yr query is : All are dhammas to be known exacly as they appear, not jst talking about the stories. You have stories about drinking and the dosa that follows but what is the reality of the moment? is it seeing, is it thinking? the second part of yr query: how to give up drinking? : what about giving up attachment, ignorance and wrong understanding. My question to her was 'how'? Achan answered: by understanding realities now. She also talked about past and future realities eg. the moment jst gone is the past and the future is the moment jst coming. therefore no need to beat yrself up about doing 'wrong', only by understanding present moment will there be any letting go of ideas of me, mine and my behaviour. As the understanding grows little by lttle there may be less conditions for bad behaviour. There is no LUcas who can control these realities, but understanding is a reality and with patience, and listening and considering the true dhamma, wisdom will grow to see correctly the realities, which because of ignorance, there is mis-perception of truth. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #114829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Self-view & Computer Rage nilovg Dear Antony, Op 30-apr-2011, om 14:41 heeft antony272b2 het volgende geschreven: > > > .... > > >Antony: As I said, in hindsight what seems to have stopped me > from completing the task was strong wise intuition that it was for > the best. I say "But you won't tell me why!" which brings on the > computer rage. I need to find an alternative to addressing a being > "you". > > .... > > Antony: Could the terror be moral dread (ottappa)? -------- N: Ottappa accompanies each kusala citta, and at that moment there is also calm. What you describe does not seem the calm of kusala. Ottappa sees the disadvantage of akusala, and also of fear. Sarah gave you a very good answer: > S: The problem is mind-created. It is the thinking and fear, more > thinking, more fear, without any understanding of conditioned > dhammas. We get lost in all our various stories about ourselves and > our problems, not realising that it such thinking, such illusion, > that is creating the difficulties. We forget all about conditioned > dhammas which are anatta. ------ N: I believe also that it is thinking with fear about stories. So long as we have not reached the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner, we still have fear, which is actually akusala citta rooted in dosa. We all have fears concerning different subjects, maybe when feeling guilty about something, about what we have done or what someone else maybe thinking about us, or fear of death. Very human. During the talks in Chiengmai I am listening to, one of Kh Sujin's assistents answered a question about fear of death. He stressed that thinking does not help and that one should keep on listening to the Dhamma. That is right, because of continuing to study, listen, discuss and consider there will be more understanding of what is real. That is the solution to problems we all are bound to have. ------ Nina. #114830 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:39 am Subject: Re: Sampayutta dhammas philofillet Hi again > In the meantime one nice teaching if the Buddha. He says thst everytine we abstain from drinking we provide protection to immeasyrablebeings. I meant to write immeasurable beings, which I guess means uncountable or limitless...it is hard to write on i-phone... Metta, Phil Maybe that means if you provide to your friends an example of a person who can hang out with them and drink Red Bull or coffee instead of beers (or bears) that might inspure one of them to. stop drinking, and that will spread to other people. By heroically making the very very difficult abstention from drinking (of course it is the vieati cetasika and virya and panna and other factors that do it) you will help to prevent a lot of suffering. But I know it's hard. In Japan alcohol is so central to socializing, it's hard to enjoy when everyone else is drinking. I usually socialuze at Starbucks now... > > Also remember that the Buddha advised you not to drink. Our great teacher. Don't you have enough respect for him to follow his advice? I ignored it for around 6 years too and paid for it. There is never a happy ending when alcohol is involved, even one beer. > > I will call you and explain a kind of samattha (maybe) meditation that has helped me > a lot, the mental pleasure is easier to have and better than beer, honestly. > > Metta, > Phil > #114831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sampayutta dhammas nilovg Dear Lukas and Phil, Op 30-apr-2011, om 15:10 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > In the meantime one nice teaching if the Buddha. He says thst > everytine we abstain from drinking we provide protection to > immeasurable beings. Maybe that means if you provide to your > friends an example of a person who can hang out with them and drink > Red Bull or coffee instead of beers ------ N: There is more to this protection to immeasurable beings. When one drinks one may commit deeds that harm others, for example, when driving a car when drunk. Actually it is said of all the five precepts. When not transgressing these it is also to the wellfare and happiness of our fellowbeings. Abstaining is also considered as a kind of daana, generosity. You give others the opportunity to live free from harm, to live in peace. But it is important to go to the root of all akusala: ignorance. Ignorance accompanies each akusala citta. When drinking there is ignorance that covers up the truth of realities. As Azita wrote: Nina. #114832 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:29 am Subject: Re: Sampayutta dhammas szmicio Hi Phil, > In the meantime one nice teaching if the Buddha. He says thst everytine we abstain from drinking we provide protection to immeasyrablebeings. Maybe that means if you provide to your friends an example of a person who can hang out with them and drink Red Bull or coffee instead of beers (or bears) that might inspure one of them to. stop drinking, and that will spread to other people. L: Yes, I did it for 4 years. But now it's so hard to get back to it. By heroically making the very very difficult abstention from drinking (of course it is the vieati cetasika and virya and panna and other factors that do it) you will help to prevent a lot of suffering. But I know it's hard. In Japan alcohol is so central to socializing, it's hard to enjoy when everyone else is drinking. I usually socialuze at Starbucks now... L: Yes I love Starbucks :P I also spend there a lot of time but it's not cheap. > Also remember that the Buddha advised you not to drink. Our great teacher. Don't you have enough respect for him to follow his advice? L: I think I need to read sigalovada sutta again. >I ignored it for around 6 years too and paid for it. There is never a happy ending when alcohol is involved, even one beer. L: That's true. > I will call you and explain a kind of samattha (maybe) meditation that has helped me > a lot, the mental pleasure is easier to have and better than beer, honestly. L: Yes I am very interested, but samatha doesnt work for me. I've tried it for so long. For example anapanasati bhavana deosnt fork for me. Best wishes Lukas p.s I've to be careful of drinking since it's the worst thing for me. #114833 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:31 am Subject: Re: Sampayutta dhammas szmicio Hi Phil > > In the meantime one nice teaching if the Buddha. He says thst everytine we abstain from drinking we provide protection to immeasyrablebeings. > > I meant to write immeasurable beings, which I guess means uncountable or limitless...it is hard to write on i-phone... L: Yes, how that was in pali. tassa tassa?! Best wishes Lukas #114834 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sampayutta dhammas szmicio Dear Nina, I find refuge in reading. When I read more I find some protection. Best wishes Lukas > ------ > N: There is more to this protection to immeasurable beings. When one > drinks one may commit deeds that harm others, for example, when > driving a car when drunk. Actually it is said of all the five > precepts. When not transgressing these it is also to the wellfare and > happiness of our fellowbeings. Abstaining is also considered as a > kind of daana, generosity. You give others the opportunity to live > free from harm, to live in peace. > But it is important to go to the root of all akusala: ignorance. > Ignorance accompanies each akusala citta. When drinking there is > ignorance that covers up the truth of realities. #114835 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:39 am Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Dear Azita Thank u very much. Could I ask more questions? The next question is: "What if I am alcoholic? If drinking no understanding." > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > Dear Azita, (all) > > Yes very helpful answers. But i need some detailed explanation also cause I dont get all the answers. Is it possible to still pose some questions to Acharn when there is opportunity? > > > > p.s > > Today I drink 3 bears and smoke some cigarets. It looks like I' ve never learn that this is not good to drink.Could u ask Acharn what about drinking and dosa after that? How to give up drinking? > > azita: Achan's answer to the first part of yr query is : All are dhammas to be known exacly as they appear, not jst talking about the stories. > You have stories about drinking and the dosa that follows but what is the reality of the moment? is it seeing, is it thinking? > > the second part of yr query: how to give up drinking? : what about giving up attachment, ignorance and wrong understanding. > My question to her was 'how'? > Achan answered: by understanding realities now. > She also talked about past and future realities eg. the moment jst gone is the past and the future is the moment jst coming. > > therefore no need to beat yrself up about doing 'wrong', only by understanding present moment will there be any letting go of ideas of me, mine and my behaviour. As the understanding grows little by lttle there may be less conditions for bad behaviour. > > There is no LUcas who can control these realities, but understanding is a reality and with patience, and listening and considering the true dhamma, wisdom will grow to see correctly the realities, which because of ignorance, there is mis-perception of truth. L: So step by step. Just understanding all's conditioned. No sati that is under anyones control. Best wishes Lukas #114836 From: SARAH CONNELL Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again dhammasanna Hello Lucas, I normally would not share some of what I will in this response to your inquiry. You will continue to do what you are doing until you realize that it is all Anicca and Dukkha Dukkha Dukkha. I retired from employ as a social case worker and with some I worked with, there is an expression that you don't stop until you are sick and tired of being sick and tired. I myself had a problem for many years with both drink and tobacco. With alcohol I had gotten to the point that I drank until I would pass out on a daily basis. With tobacco I smoked from the time I was 11 years old and when stopped at age 51 years was using 2 to 3 packs of cigarettes a day. To your question as to how to stop. The answer is that you STOP. You stop buying the alcohol and tobacco and you stop drinking or smoking them. It is as simple as that. But it is extremely hard in the beginning but you can do it. The latent habitual tendencies are very strong and it takes time to have them overcome. You overcome them by the practice of the right or skillful actions. It takes about 3 months for any physical craving to die out but longer for the mental tendency and desire. Once I made the volitional intention and action, there is kusala kamma. I have not touched alcohol in almost 26 years and tobacco in over 20 years. It can be done but you must be willing to do it. I would just like to add that for me once it became clear that those were anicca and dukkha eventually it also became clear as to anatta. I use "I" for conventional speaking and writing. In Thai I wish you "Chook-dii" (Good luck) in your effort. May you be well and happy and always smiling, Sarah Jane ________________________________ From: azita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 8:18:58 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again hallo Lucas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Azita, (all) > Yes very helpful answers. But i need some detailed explanation also cause I >dont get all the answers. Is it possible to still pose some questions to Acharn >when there is opportunity? > > p.s > Today I drink 3 bears and smoke some cigarets. It looks like I' ve never learn >that this is not good to drink.Could u ask Acharn what about drinking and dosa >after that? How to give up drinking? azita: Achan's answer to the first part of yr query is : All are dhammas to be known exacly as they appear, not jst talking about the stories. You have stories about drinking and the dosa that follows but what is the reality of the moment? is it seeing, is it thinking? <....> #114837 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:33 pm Subject: Re: Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? szmicio Dear Nina > N: Good reminder. And meant as a reminder, because we cannot have it > at will. > I just heard Kh Sujin speak about the goal of listening: listen in > order to understand so that there will be pa~n~naa that eradicates > defilements. > The goal of jhana: to develop pa~n~naa that subdues defilements, the > goal of vipassanaa: to develop pa~n~naa that eradicates defilements. > Now I have your eye, I feel so much appreciation that you are helping > backing up the archives. It takes extra time and effort, and I am so > happy Sarah mentioned this so that we can have anumodana. It is > kusala and it can become a perfection when accompanied by pa~n~naa. L: What do you mean by anumodana? What is the meaning of this term? Best wishes Lukas #114839 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:44 pm Subject: Feeding the Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: Feeding the Joy Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding & cannot survive without food, even so are the 7 Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they also can only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot survive without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen joy and also feeding of the completion by increase of any already arisen joy? There are mental states that are the originator, maker, producer, root, basis & source for the awakening of joy! Frequently giving careful & rational attention to them, is feeding the arising and gradual fulfillment of joy... And what is the starving that obstructs the emergence of any yet unarisen joy and which also hinders any already arisen joy from reaching sweet fulfillment by development? There are states that are the basis & source for the joy link to awakening ! Not giving frequent careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much & often; is the starving that prevents any unarisen joy from arising and also blocks any already arisen joy from reaching any complete fulfillment by mental meditative training... Comments from the classical commentaries: Elated & ecstatic exultation is the characteristic of the Joy Link to Awakening (Pti-sambojjhanga). Motivated intentness upon is the purpose of the quality of Joy. Satisfaction lifting any depression is the manifestation of the Joy Link to Awakening. Thinking of Joy makes this state return! This can be utilized by training it! Try now! This reinforcement - in itself - has the capacity to gradually elevate and induce Joy! Therefore is the state of gladness & Joy itself mainspring, basis & source of more Joy It is the deliberate directing attention to this, again & again, that can produce Joy!!! Further conditions helpful for arising of the Joy Link to Awakening are: 1: Recollection of the supreme and sublime uniqueness of the Buddha... 2: Recollection of the supreme and sublime uniqueness of the Dhamma... 3: Recollection of the supreme and sublime uniqueness of the Sangha... 4: Recollection of the supreme and sublime efficacy of pure Morality... 5: Recollection of the supreme and sublime efficacy of prior Generosity 6: Recollection of the qualities that gave the devas their divinity... 7: Remembering the stilled silent state of blissful Peace... 8: Avoidance of primitive, violent, angry, rough, and coarse people. 9: Friendship with refined & kind people, who often smile in silent ease. 10: Reviewing by reading many inspiring dhamma discourses like this one. 11: Commitment & resolute determination to elevate the mind by Joy... There is joy joined with thinking and there is joy separated from thinking! Both leads to enraptured advance towards many advantageous states. Awakening is a veritable flood of bliss! <...> Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114840 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8, revision. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Han), It's been a great series. Thank you for your very extensive work in translating the Thai, checking all the texts and adding your own notes, Nina. Thx also to Han for checking the Burmese and Pali texts and adding helping qus and notes. Anumodana Sarah p.s. Lukas, anumodana means an appreciation of the other's dana. It's commonly used in Buddhist countries. ======= #114841 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & all, --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Robert E wrote: > K: Absolutely! There is thinking of two beings, conceptually. There is no atta-ditthi, however. > .... > >S:No illusions of Atta, doesn't mean no thoughts of beings, otherwise the Buddha wouldn't have had any metta or karuna! Just namas and rupas rolling on! .... R:>I would just like to sort out the difference between "being-view" and "self-view" in my own understanding. If one is thinking of the concepts of beings - which I interpret as perceiving them as such, rather than just perceiving momentary dhammas - there may not be a false view of "self" but the view of concept is there. It seems like an interesting line between being conceptualizing beings and having a false view of self. I wonder if you could say a bit more about this. .... S: A good question as usual. Throughout the day we think about people, other beings such as animals and insects and things, such as tables, chairs and waves. This is just the same as it was before we ever heard of the Buddha's teachings and just the same as it is for small children. Usually, when we think about beings and things, it's just with ignorance, attachment or aversion, but not with any ideas about realities, truths or with any views about there being or not being Selves, Gods, Souls or anything else of any significance in terms of right or wrong views. Occasionally, during the day, instead of thinking about other beings with ignorance, attachment or aversion, instead there's thinking with kindness, metta, generosity, compassion or equanimity. Likewise, occasionally whilst thinking of concepts of various kinds, there's non-attachment, abstaining from harm, relinquishment or morality of one kind or other. If there is a development of understanding of the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states and a consideration of the value of the former, these are likely to grow and become more significant. Still, most of the day and for most (small)children or animals, even for most adults probably, there is little or no view about whether the visible object appearing now belongs to a Self or is seen by a Self or any one of the 20 kinds of sakkaya-ditthi. In other words, most beings (or kinds of consciousness referred to as beings), just conceptualise during the day in ignorance and attachment, but without sakkaya-ditthi arising UNLESS there is a reflecting of views about realities, truths and so on. This is why the reflecting on Life and what is experienced with sakkaya-ditthi and other wrong views is actually more harmful than not reflecting on Life at all. Sometimes people don't think much about themselves or about any inner essence or light or soul and then they study religions, even Buddhism, and it is more clinging to self, more sakkaya-ditthi that is being developed. This is why the Buddha taught two paths - a right path and a wrong path. The wrong path begins with wrong understanding, wrong thinking, wrong effort and continues on, masquerading as the right path. So, back to your question about my comment above and Rob K's question about a sotapanna "having sex". There can be lots of attachment with regard to sensous objects and concepts on account of these, such as with regard to another person with or without sakkaya-ditthi or attanu-ditthi (including wrong views about the khandhas taken as 'things', but not necessarily taken for Self). Most of the time, again, there is just ignorance and lots of attachment. Only panna (right understanding) can know if and when any ditthi arises. In a sotapanna's case, no ditthi arises and neither does any inclination at all to break the precepts, such as sexual misconduct of any kind. .... >In the ultimate view one would not have a concept of beings or a view of self - am I right? .... S: In the ultimate sense, there are only namas and rupas, mental and physical phenomena and therefore, there could not be a wrong view of anything else existing at this moment for the wise (i.e the ariyan disciple). There would still be all the usual concepts about people, tables, chairs and waves - life would go on as normal - but no wrong view, no doubt at all. Like now, I'm thinking about the letters, the words, about Rob E, about the message - all concepts, but no idea of there being anything other than the khandhas being experienced in reality. Pls ask anything else if this is not clear as I think it's an important topic to clarify. Metta Sarah ====== #114842 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 2 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Ken O wrote: << S:Kusala is always calm, but if thereis no understanding of the distinction between kusala and akusala at this very moment and the characteristic of calm, samatha, it can never be developed. It's >useless to discuss highly developed samatha and samadhi if there is no beginning of understanding of samatha now.>> ... >KO: the development of samadhi is the distinction between kusala and akusala at the very moment - could you give me commentarian textual support on this. This is an interpretation by AS but this is not supported by the commentarian text. .... S: Sorry, but this is not an interpretation by AS or by me or anyone else I know. Instead it's another mis-interpretation by Ken O of what we've said - very different from what I said above:-)) To clarify again, samadhi is concentration, ekaggata cetasika. It can be kusala or akusala. In order for samma-samadhi (right concentration) to be developed, there has to be samma-ditthi (right understanding) developed. That samma-ditthi has to understand: a) in the case of samatha-bhavana, the distinction between moments of kusala and akusala, the nature of calm, the nature of attachment to sensuous objects. b) in the case of satipatthana, the nature of namas and rupas as anatta - just dhammas. .... >K:The development of samadhi is usually used as a basis of insight as show in the commentary of satipatthana sutta .... S: There cannot be insight, there cannot be even a beginning of satipatthana, even pariyatti, without samma-samadhi. It's a path factor that arises with each moment of samma-ditthi of the path. As I've said before, at stages of insight the samma-samadhi is apparent, the factors are "yoked" together on account of the growing strength of the samma-samdhi which is equivalient to upacara samadhi. If you are talking about the prior development of jhana and jhana as basis for insight, this has been discussed to death:-). You read the commentaries in your way. Others of us read them with a different interpretation. I first read the Vism from cover to cover over 35 years ago, before I met K.Sujin. It's not a matter of just reading texts, but as we've discussed before, of the right consideration and understanding at this very moment. Better to read one phrase with right understanding of realities appearing now, than the entire Tipitaka and set of commentaries with a view of self doing something to get a result:-) .... K:>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html <> .... S: Qus: 1.Reflecting (wisely) on the corpse, by conditions of course, not by wishing for any result, did "He produce" the first absorption or were there conditions for the first jhana citta to arise? 2.Was any Self involved? 3. Did he "Make the factors of absorption a basis" for insight or, by conditions, did it happen that insights arose with those factors as objects of understanding (vipassana) just prior to the attaining of the stages of enlightenment? 4. In other words, did the various dhammas arise by conditions, beyond anyone's control or did they arise because a Being forced and controlled the jhana cittas and then the enlightenment cittas? 5. Are jhana cittas any less dukkha than any other conditioned dhammas? .... >>S:You would like to just exchange texts and refs, but for me, the Dhamma is not book-study and memorization, but it's about the understanding of the citta at this very moment. This is why I always remind you (and everyone) to consider, to understand the present citta, the dhammas appearing right now. ... >KO: Lets see what the commentary said about this pg 111, The Brahmajala Sutta, B Bodhi <> .... S: And what is the right study, right learning and right reviewing of the khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas now? Is it book study or is it the direct understanding of visible object and other rupas, vedana, sanna, citta and mental factors appearing now? If there is no beginning to understand the present dhamma appearing, there is no "right study" at all. The study that the Buddha taught is the study of present moment realities. .... K:> There are a few instances of memorisation as part of practise in the text. .... S: So what is this memorisation at this very moment? Is it rote learning of the texts or is it the right remembering of what appears now with right awareness and right understanding? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57200 "S: In, AN, 5s 'The Confounding of Saddhamma (b)' (PTS), we read about the 5 things which lead to the disappearance of the Teachings: 'Herein, monks, the monks master not Dhamma.... They teach not others Dhamma in detail.... They make not others speak it in detail... They make no repetition of it in detail.... The monks do not in their hearts turn over and ponder upon Dhamma, they review it not in their minds.....' ..... In AN,4s, 186 'Approach' (Ummagga), we read about the meaning of what this 'mastery' refers to. It refers to being 'widely learned' and 'knowing Dhamma by heart'. This sounds like memorization of the texts, but what it says is: '...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,G aathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla. Now if a monk *UNDERSTANDS THE MEANING* and (text of) dhamma, - *EVEN IF IT BE BUT A STANZA OF FOUR LINES*, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called 'one *WIDELY LEARNED*, *WHO KNOWS DHAMMA BY HEART*' " Metta Sarah ====== #114843 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Thu, 21/4/11, Ken O wrote: >>S: As Ken H quoted recently from the Yamaka Sutta: >"In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." >>The weighty kamma is because of the intensity of the hatred whilst performing such an act. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view which thinks our deeds can kill other beings. In fact it is only kamma that can condition the cuti citta, the last moment of life. It's a vipaka citta, like patisandhi (the birth citta) and all the bhavanga cittas. The more we understand life as one moment of citta, the less will we live under the delusion that we live among people, wanting to harm and kill. In fact, there's never anyone at all, just the arising of kusala and akusala cittas which depend on conditions. ... >KO: your statements are not in line with the commentary .... S: All of them? :-)) ... K)> and you did not answer my question, why is there a difference. If there is never being at all, why do Devadatta experiences suffering in Avici hell due to making a Buddha bleed or King Ajatasattu have to suffer in the boiling in the Hell of Copper Cauldrons for 60,000 years for killing of his father. Since it is nama and rupa, why should some kamma be more weighty then? .... S: As I said, because of the intensity of the intention (kamma) that motivates the particular deeds. As we know, all other things being equal, the intensity of intention to kill a large animal is greater than to kill a small animal or insect and the intensity to kill a human.....one of virtue.....an ariyan is greater still. The intensity of intention and the attempt to harm or kill the Buddha is greatest of all. When we refer to Devadatta, Ajatasattu, we are referring to particular namas and rupas. They are not all the same:-) If they were, there'd be no reason to name these ones Devadatta and those ones Buddha. Each visible object is different, each citta is different. Lots of suttas and texts refer to the different kinds of kamma involved. .... >K: Under right view there is such a statement in the suttas and the texts which I told Ken H, there is father, mother, noble ones and Buddha etc. Also are we talking about sotapanna right now or wordlings. It is impossible for sotapanna to do such thing precisely becuse he knows there is noble ones, father and mother and Buddha and also he would not change teacher to another sectarian. .... S: A sotapanna would not do such things precisely because he knows there are no beings in reality and he fully understands kamma and other conditions. You keep referring to the quote about father, mother and so on, misunderstanding that the text was referring to those who believed there were no results of kamma. This is what I wrote before about the passage referring to those who believed there was no father, mother with regard to fruit of good kamma etc: >S: This is the serious wrong view of annihilation and this passage is repeated in many suttas. In MN 41, Nanamoli/Bodhi give the following summary explanation to the same quote in note 425: "This is a morally nihilistic materialist view that denies an afterlife and kammic retribution. "There is nothing given" means that there is no fruit of giving; "no this world, no other world" that there is no rebirth into either this world or a world beyond; "no mother, no father" that there is no fruit of good conduct and bad conduct towards mother and father. The statement about recluses and brahmins denies the existence of Buddhas and arahants." A lot more is said about this under "The Doctrine of Ajita Kesakambala" in the Saamma~n~naphala Sutta and its commentary. For example, in B.Bodhi's translation of these (BPS wheel), it says: "Cy. By denying kamma one denies its result [because there is no result when there is no kamma]. By denying the result one denies kamma [because when there is no result, kamma becomes inefficacious]. Thus all these thinkers [S: inc. Ajita], by denying both (kamma and its results), in effect espouse acausalims (ahetukavaada), the inefficacy of action (akiriyavaada), and moreal nihilism (natthikavaada)." Also more on this quote in these two messages. The second one is Nina's from the Sangiiti Corner. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/84298 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/89956< .... >KO: Also it is not necessary all objects of volitions are nama and rupa, please see the commentary of right view .... S: No one has suggested they are. .... >KO: If there are only namas and rupas, then there should be no father and mother, and no noble ones and no Buddha. Then should not be any difference in kamma .... S: There are only namas and rupas in reality (see intro to first chapter in Abhidhammattha Sangaha). Some of these namas and rupas we refer to as "father", "mother" and so on. On kamma, as explained. Metta Sarah ====== #114844 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Ken O), --- On Wed, 20/4/11, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: The topic and question raised originally in the thread was about how wisdom accumulates. My answer is that, by hearing, considering and developing wisdom now, it accumulates by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). ==================================== H:> My perspective is that wisdom (in the pa~n~na sense) is not a repository of knowledge that accumulates but a faculty/ability that "grows" in penetrative fuction and acuity; that is, if this beneficial process ("process" in the non-abhidhammic/ordinary sense) occurs, then future pa~n~na is "better" than prior. .... S: Yes, I would say, a particular mental state that "grows" in penetrative function and acuity (as you suggest). This is all that "accumulates" means. The reason this is possible is because of particular conditions, the main one of which is the one I mentioned above, not kamma as Ken O suggested before. Metta Sarah ====== #114845 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna sarahprocter... Hi James, (& Rob M) Nice to see you aroud and hope you're well now. --- On Wed, 20/4/11, James wrote: >James: A sotapanna has "great wisdom"?? I think you use that adjective "great" too loosely. .... S: MN 48, Kosambiya Sutta refers to "the great reviewing knowledges" (mahaapaccavekkha. na~naa.na) of a sotapanna. Also consider the descriptions in the Vism, ch XXII, such as: "14 And not only does it [the path of sotapanna] cause the piercing of this mass of greed, etc., but it dries up the ocean of suffering of the round in the beginingless round of rebirths. It closes all doors to the states of loss. It provides actual experience of the seven noble treasures. [faith, virtue, conscience, shame, learning, generosity, and understanding - D iii.151]. it abandons the eightfold wrong path. It allays all enmity and fear. [note: see the 5 kinds of fear at S. ii, 68f. Pm, however, says: 'The five kinds of enmity beginning with killing living things and the twenty-five great terrors (mahaa-bhayaanii) are what constitute 'all enmity and far'" (Pm 867)] It leads to the state of the Fully Enlightened One's breast-born son (see S. ii, 221). And it leads to the acquisition of many hundred other blessings. So it is the knowledge associated with the path of stream-entry, the provider of many hundred blessings, that is called knowledge of the path of stream-entry." When the fruition consciousness (phala cittas) of the sotapanna arise, immediately succeeding the path consciousness (magga citta), we read: "18 And at this point the stream-enterer is called the second noble person. However negligent he may be, he is bound to make an end of suffering when he has travelled and traversed the round of rebirths among deities and human beings for the seventh time." As for the "the great reviewing knowledges" referred to in the sutta, the Vism elaborates in the same chapter as above: "20 He reviews the path in this way, 'So this is the path I have come by'. Next he reviews the fruition after that in this way, 'This is the blessing I have obtained'. Next he reviews the defilements that have been abandoned, 'These are the defilements abandoned in me'. Next he reviews the defilements still to be eliminated by the three higher paths, 'These are the defilements still remaining in me'. And lastly he reviews the deathless nibbana in this way, 'This is the state (dhamma) that has been penetrated by me as object'. So the noble disciple who is a stream-enterer has five kinds of reviewing. .... .... >James: "Very unwholesome kamma"?? Goodness, your hyperbole is quite strong about this subject! .... From Nyantiloka's Buddhist dictionary under "kamma-patha": 'I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'." S: Note the reference to "extreme forms of defiled thought" Metta Sarah p.s Rob M, see the reference above to how the sotapanna is "bound to make an end of suffering when he has travelled and traversed the round of rebirths among deities and human beings for the seventh time." ====== #114846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2011 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 8, revision. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 1-mei-2011, om 7:15 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > It's been a great series. Thank you for your very extensive work in > translating the Thai, ------ N: Now I am in correspondance with Khun Unnop, because I have to ask permission to send it to Alan's web. I noticed too late that permission has to be asked. I took it that on dsg it is for study and informal, and without it Han could not have helped me. Therefore, I now have to check my text all over. Nina. #114847 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Wed, 20/4/11, Robert E wrote: > >S: Where does it state that there cannot be the development of satipatthana whilst in bed? Doesn't the Satipatthana Sutta refer to the development of satipatthana in all postures? Where and when did Ananda become an arahat? ... R:> Just wanted to put in my two cents, and take the opportunity to agree with you. :-) ... S: :-) thx for that and all your other comments. I liked the story about the Tai Chi master and the "Invest in loss". We can learn a lot at times of loss. I think it's the Yang style long form of tai chi that I first learnt. .... >R: The reason I am going on about this, is that one shouldn't be totally ruled by the appearance of physical attributes or physical circumstances, as there are always other factors at play, and other potentials possible. Even though things may seem quite impossible, it is worth considering what one can do anyway. I hope that Alex can practice mindfulness in bed, even when he is unable to sit up. .... S: Yes....even just before death, there may be mindfulness and understanding. The limits are mostly in the mind, not appreciating the power of the Teachings and their applicability to anytime, any reality. Thanks again for all your helpful reflections. Metta Sarah ====== #114848 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Vince wrote: > you wrote: > > > KS: Can a sotapanna kill anyone? > > Phil: The ability to kill anyone is not there anymore > for a sotapanna. > > KS: Because of the understanding of all namas and > rupas as not self. > > Sarah: No idea of a being [existing]. > >V: "understanding of nature of beings" is not the same thing > of "no idea of a being > existed". > Buddha taught when there is not more idea of being (atta) > it is the case of > somebody abiding in release: this is the only case of > arhants. > > I wonder if there is a confussion between eradication of > "idea" instead > "belief". I.e: when we say "the sotappana has eradicated > the idea of a being" > --instead-- "the sotappana has eradicated the belief in the > idea of a being". > > Difference is so great that it changes completely the > sense. We talk about > different eradicated fetters. Only by the eradication of > all fetters then one > can abide permanently without the idea of a being ("I, me, > mine"). .... S: Let's be clear: the sotapanna has eradicated sakkaya-ditthi and all other wrong views. There is no more idea that a being, a person, a thing (such as a table or tree) actually exisits. All that actually exist are namas and rupas. The only realities are cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. There is no more doubt about this. .... > > I fear K.S talks about keeping awareness in the present > moment, then in that > same moment the killing is not possible. As the sotapanna > knows the difference > with delusion, it would happen *in that moment*. However, > it doesn't mean the > sotapanna abides in this awareness all the time. In fact, > he/she cannot > do it because attachments, and for this same reason we talk > about sotapannas > instead arhants. .... S: For the sotapanna, there isn't awareness all the time. However, there is never again any wrong view or the greed, anger or delusion that can motivate the breaking of the precepts. ... > > Perhaps somebody can ask to Sujin if a sotapanna cannot > kill any being (even a > mosquito?) when there is absence of awareness in the > present moment and there is > arising of the attachments existing in sotapanna (anger, > lust,etc..). And why. ... S: No need to ask. A sotapanna could never intentionally kill or think of killing a mosquito. Of course, unintentionally, insects are often being killed or harmed. Yes, there is still attachment, aversion and ignorance, but not of the degree to attempt to harm another living being which is prompted by a tendency of delusion and wrong view as I've explained. As I just quoted to James, in the description of the sotapanna's enlightenment: "It allays all enmity and fear. [note: see the 5 kinds of fear at S. ii, 68f. Pm, however, says: 'The five kinds of enmity beginning with killing living things and the twenty-five great terrors (mahaa-bhayaanii) are what constitute 'all enmity and far'" (Pm 867)] .... > > In the Sarakaani Sutta(SN 55.24) there is a relation of > stream-winners taught > by Buddha. Only arhants are abiding in release: .... S: thx for the quote. I'm not quite sure of your point. > *** NOT RELEASED: APPROVES TATHAGATA TEACHINGS WITH > MODERATE INSIGHT *** > "Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with > unwavering devotion > to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and > swift in wisdom and > has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: > the faculty of faith, > of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. And > the things > proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately approved by him > with insight. That > man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the > downfall, to the evil way, > to states of woe. .... S: This is one not even a sotapanana. I take it to be referring to a Cula-sotapanna, a lesser sotapanna who has just reached the second stage of insight. Even this one can no longer commit the akusala kamma patha which would lead to lower planes. Metta Sarah ======= #114849 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (& Alex, also Ken O & Phil take note:-), Just to say that I thought all your comments below were helpful and a good summary. Somehow, you at least understand what we're trying to say, now keep passing it on to Alex & Ken O! --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Robert E wrote: > >A:It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? >> This goes down a very slippery slope... .... R:> Just to take the "dhammas only" side for a moment, the saving grace of this view is that killing someone still represents the most horrifically akusala citta, even if there is no one to be killed. The fact that one desires to kill someone represents intention/volition of such a deluded nature that it causes the worst possible vipaka. "Kamma patha" that allows one to "complete the action" is experienced as satisfying the akusala intention and thus creating akusala with no holding back. If one were to stop from killing after experiencing a murderous intention, then the kamma is not as bad, because the intention is not as strong. >Imagine two cases - in one case a murderous feeling arises and at the moment of action the person relents and realizes that this is wrong and stops. In the other case, the person completes the murder and experiences "evil satisfaction" at getting their revenge. It is obvious that the second is not only a much worse action, but also represents a much more unwholesome intention, with resultant very unpleasant vipaka. >Whether or not one agrees with the above model of reality, we can understand that it would cause one to refrain from akusala activity, and beyond that, to see akusala intention as the real culprit. Unlike the ordinary person who thinks they will only be punished for evil deeds, the person who sees these negative intentions arise and believes that kamma is intention will see these intentions as very dangerous to their well-being, even if the action is never performed. >That person will guard their thoughts and intentions with mindfulness in a way that would not occur to the ordinary person. .... S: Nicely put - all "dhammas only" as you stated at the outset. Thx, Rob! Metta Sarah ====== #114850 From: "philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sampayutta dhammas philofillet Hi Lukas, 'Nina, Sarah C and all) Lukas, you are getting good advice from different angles. Sarah C spoke very forthrightly about the need to stop the destructive behaviour. Nina points out the deeper truth of the matter, that at the paramattha level, "there is ignorance that covers up the truth of realities" when drinking. And that would include ignorance dressed up as thinking about anatta as one lifts the glass and believing it to be satiapatthana, so let's be aware of that sort of self-deception. I saw "we", because I have addictions too. Currenly, the i-phone, and following baseball obsessively. Until I sort out that behaviour, I won't be reflecting on deep teachings. The Buddha said that a dirty cloth can't absorb colored dye, and a disturbed mind can't absorb the deep teachings. That is clear. So when you are drinking, and I am frying my brain on baseball and web browsing, let's not let ourselves be attracted by thinking about the deep teachings. Let's stop doing the things that hurt ourselves and others first. Getting an i-phone on my return from Thailand was a *huge* blunder that I somehow have to work myself out of, I was having such a productive time before my trip to Thailand. Going drinking is a blunder for you. It's a bit tougher for me in a sense because the Buddha didn't explicitly warn against frying one's brain cells on the internet, but he did speak explicitly against drinking. So you have the Buddha directly at your side, steering you in a wise direction. I have to find his direction (understanding) in a not so obvious way. Again, as I was saying to you offlist, if there is a physical addiction and even if you deny it, who knows for sure, you are asking the wrong people for help, you need to speak to a professional expert in getting people off alcohol addiction. I'm going to leave it there. I don't know if my words have been helpful at all. I only have 4 days left in my early summer vacation so will be off the computer, and i-phone, so won't be able to call. But I am on your side. Please look into samattha meditation. Even if it is full of attachment to having pleasant feeling, attachment to pleasant mental feeling through meditation is better than attachment to pleasant mental feeling through alcohol, and anyone who tells you otherwise is not being a good friend to you at that moment, though they mean well, of course. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > I find refuge in reading. When I read more I find some protection. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > ------ > > N: There is more to this protection to immeasurable beings. When one > > drinks one may commit deeds that harm others, for example, when > > driving a car when drunk. Actually it is said of all the five > > precepts. When not transgressing these it is also to the wellfare and > > happiness of our fellowbeings. Abstaining is also considered as a > > kind of daana, generosity. You give others the opportunity to live > > free from harm, to live in peace. > > But it is important to go to the root of all akusala: ignorance. > > Ignorance accompanies each akusala citta. When drinking there is > > ignorance that covers up the truth of realities. > #114851 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Rob E), --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Ken O wrote: >>R:Could I ask you how latency takes place for akusala intentions, and how this >does not exist for kusala intentions? >K: I could only answer how for aksuala intentions, .... S: it's exactly the same for kusala or akusala. It's just that the term anusaya just refers to particular akusala states. The conditions applying are just the same. >The Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary. pg 261 <<9. ....... >And here the ignorance that arises subsequently should be understood as the taint of ignorance. The previously arisen ignorance itself becomes a decisive support condition for the subsequently arisen taint of ignorance. The rest by the aforesaid method. .... S: In just the same way previously arisen panna (understanding) becomes a decisive support condition for subsequent panna. This is just as I've been suggesting to you. We can't just read passages in isolation, but have to consider the Tipitaka as a whole. It is this condition, not kamma condition that is important here. .... >KO: As for kusala intentions, there is no such "latency". There are only asaya (inclinations) which could be kusala or akusala. But they are not like latency which condition the arising of defilements, rather they are like weighted average or inclinations (which is a good translation). ... S: The inclinations (not intentions - this only refers to cetana) are also latent in the case of asaya, referring to kusala or akusala. Just like the anusaya, they lie dormant/latent, but condition the arising of those states. Inclinations is fine, but "weighted average" is not:-)) ... >K: These are few terms which I have yet clearly understand its role in the overall context of nama and rupa. Somehow there is a sense of discontinuity for kusala intentions which is unlike aksuala where there is latency. I am not sure of this and how does kusala has a contintuity. I suspect mostly on the universal cetasikas like sanna and kamma. ... S: You mean kusala tendencies/inclinations I think. As Nina explained and as I am stressing, these also lie dormant in each citta and "accumulate" each time they condition the arising of those states by natural decisive support condition, just like in the case of the akusala states which you seem to agree with. This is the continuity. Also other conditions such as contiguity, repetition and so on play their part. Sanna, when it is kusala or akusala is another mental factor which accumulates in the same way. Cetana too. When the cetana (kamma) has accumulated to a particular strength it conditions deeds and actions which bring results. Thus we have the 3 rounds of kusala/akusala, kamma and vipaka, on and on. Metta Sarah ====== Sanna in the sense of marking objects which is related to kusala and kamma which accumulates the volition of kusala and also co-ordinate the other cetasikas on the object. Things are never "lost" as this two cetasikas continue in the life mental continuum until PariNibbana. These are my personal opinions. Ken O #114852 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k > >From: Ken H >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Friday, 29 April 2011 07:45:10 >Subject: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: >concepts can lead to awakening > > >Hi Ken O, > >----- ><. . .> >>> KH: If, however, you are going so far as to say concepts are absolute realities >>> >>>then you are absolutely wrong. >>> > >> KO: are you saying there is no father and no morther. >----- > >KH: Yes I am, but bear in mind that we are at DSG and we are talking about >satipatthana. At other places, or in other contexts, I wouldn't say that. KO: satipatthana start with concepts, please read the ancient commentary of satipatthana sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html >------------ >> KO: There are not paramatha dhamma but does not mean there are not dhamma, does >> >>not mean they dont exist, they exist as a concept but not as a paramatha dhamma. >> >> >------------ > >KH: When we are talking about the Dhamma there is only the presently arisen >citta with its cetasikas and rupa. Nothing else exists, either as a concept or >as anything else. > KO: Buddha never said that beings don't exist, he just said beings are just mere designation. >--------------------- ><. . .> >>>KH: In what way have the ancient masters said concepts were part of the path? >>> > >> KO: many ways, you could read Visud where the meditation subjects are mostly >>concepts. Or practising of virture where the objects are at times concepts, >>beings and not paramatha dhamma. >> >--------------------- > >KH: You are talking about moments of dana sila and samatha, but not about >moments of vipassana. Only vipassana is the path; those other kusala moments are > >KH: That's a step removed, isn't it? The concepts themselves are never part of >the path, and they are never the arammana (object) of the path. >not. KO: haha, please quote the text. this is the most absurb thing i ever heard, that only happen in supramundane. Please read the text carefully before you make such claim because this is not the what Buddha teach and please dont misrepresent him. > >--------------------------- >> KO: There are many instances where jhanas are basis of insight where the >>objects of jhanas are concepts. >--------------------------- > > >------------------------------- ><. . .> >> KO: if you think the objects of >the jhanas for the contemplation of body before it becomes as a basis of >insight, is not concept, please do quote the text. >-------------------------------- > >KH: Why would I think such a ridiculous thing? Many cittas (not just jhana >cittas) take a concept as their object, and yet all cittas can be objects of >insight. > KO: please quote text, I can confident say you cannot find even one unless you tell me supradmundane or direct expericence of nama and rupa >---------------------------------------- ><. . .> >> KO: During mundane 8NP, >---------------------------------------- > >KH: Let's synchronise our definitions. The "mundane path" is a form of vipassana > >known as satipatthana. Satipatthana is a citta that contains six (sometimes >seven) mundane path factors. > KO: you dont even understand satipatthana so how could you even discuss with me. > >The "supramundane path" is also a form of vipassana. It contains eight >supramundane path factors. > > >Can we agree on that? >------------------------- >> KO: the development of concentration is concept, righ >>action, speech or thoughts objects of these could be concepts or paramatha >>dhamma. Only during suparmundane than it is paramatha dhamma. >------------------------- > >KH: That is where you are espousing a theory of your own. > >According the texts, the major difference between the two paths is that the >mundane experiences a conditioned paramattha dhamma, while the supramundane >experiences an unconditioned paramattha dhamma (nibbana). > KH: The fact that concepts can be used to describe dhammas, or the >characteristics of dhammas, has *nothing* to do with what you have been saying. >You have been saying that concepts were either part of, or objects of, the path. > > > >There has never been any disagreement over whether concepts could be used to >refer to dhammas. The word "citta" for example is a concept that designates a >type of nama. The word "person" - when spoken by the Buddha " was a concept that > >designated five categories of dhammas momentarily arising together. > >Not only single words, but also whole stories, can be used to describe dhammas >(by way of simile). There has never been any disagreement over this. > > >But you are using it as evidence of a conventional path. And that is simply not >logical. There is no connection. KO:-) I dont espousing this, please read the satipatthan sutta, the commentaries, the 4NP description in Dispeller of Delusions, they support my view but not yours, concepts are used always used initially. I bet with you, you cannot produce any text. But i can always produce. cheers Ken O #114853 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Lukas wrote: >> S: ..I remember when I was a child and my family would go on long car journeys with my mother trying to keep us quiet with sweets - it always seemed we could eat more and more...... ... >L: Well that may be interesting to hear more on those trips :P Where it was?In England? >How could you deal wit pleasant sights? How with different pleasant stories about u in this or that 'wonderful' place? .... S: Yes, I grew up in England - long car journeys along country lanes (in those days, no motorways) to visit elderly relatives or go on holidays. How did I deal with pleasant sights and stories? Just like now - mostly all day with lobha:-) Common, ordinary lobha. .... >>S:and now I'm paying the price with long sessions at the dentist! ... >L: So how do you manage this? pain and all unpleasantness? I used to think a long stories about me and myself...and also find myself I put so many importance to what other says about me. No rest at all. .... S: Again, mostly managed like anyone else with dosa and moha, but actually some attachment to just resting and relaxing and chatting with the dentist. In between, seeing, hearing - any dosa is very momentary and doesn't last at all. I don't often think about what others say about me - not much interest:-) Thinking's just thinking and there can be awareness anytime of it. This way we give less importance to both our own and others' thinking. Just passing namas of no significance. .... >L: yes Azita. I would be greateful If you can pose my questions to Acharn. These questions are: >"1. What's the characteristic of seeing? of hearing? etc. This seems like thatis a lot of stories after seeing. Shall we try to know seeing or visible object now? Does considering thinking just as a mental phenomena-activity helps to understand more?". .... S: So glad Azita is addressing your qus in Bkk - helpful for everyone. Lukas, it's really unhelpful to try and know any reality now. The path is about just understanding naturally and easily, not trying to do anything. This is a hindrance - just accumulating more self-attachment at such times. ... >I go for a trip with my friends now. We are gonna buy some coca-cola and have a sightseeing out of the town. There is sunny and those particulars kind of trips are deeply rooted in my mind. I used to did them since I was a child. .... S: Have some fun, discuss some dhamma with Adam and encourage each other to share your discussions with us. Metta Sarah ====== #114854 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 2 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k > >From: sarah abbott >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 14:20:19 >Subject: Re: [dsg] part 2 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: >concepts can lead to awakening > > >Dear Ken O, > >--- On Thu, 21/4/11, Ken O wrote: > ><< S:Kusala is always calm, but if thereis no understanding of the distinction >between kusala and akusala at this very moment and the characteristic of calm, >samatha, it can never be developed. It's > >>useless to discuss highly developed samatha and samadhi if there is no beginning >> >>of understanding of samatha now.>> >... >>KO: the development of samadhi is the distinction between kusala and akusala at >> >>the very moment - could you give me commentarian textual support on this. This > >>is an interpretation by AS but this is not supported by the commentarian text. >.... >S: Sorry, but this is not an interpretation by AS or by me or anyone else I >know. Instead it's another mis-interpretation by Ken O of what we've said - very > >different from what I said above:-)) > >To clarify again, samadhi is concentration, ekaggata cetasika. It can be kusala >or akusala. In order for samma-samadhi (right concentration) to be developed, >there has to be samma-ditthi (right understanding) developed. That samma-ditthi >has to understand: > >a) in the case of samatha-bhavana, the distinction between moments of kusala and > >akusala, the nature of calm, the nature of attachment to sensuous objects. > >b) in the case of satipatthana, the nature of namas and rupas as anatta - just >dhammas. S: There cannot be insight, there cannot be even a beginning of satipatthana, >even pariyatti, without samma-samadhi. It's a path factor that arises with each >moment of samma-ditthi of the path. As I've said before, at stages of insight >the samma-samadhi is apparent, the factors are "yoked" together on account of >the growing strength of the samma-samdhi which is equivalient to upacara >samadhi. > >If you are talking about the prior development of jhana and jhana as basis for >insight, this has been discussed to death:-). You read the commentaries in your >way. Others of us read them with a different interpretation. I first read the >Vism from cover to cover over 35 years ago, before I met K.Sujin. It's not a >matter of just reading texts, but as we've discussed before, of the right >consideration and understanding at this very moment. Better to read one phrase >with right understanding of realities appearing now, than the entire Tipitaka >and set of commentaries with a view of self doing something to get a result:-) >.... KO: please provide text, you only said what you and AS interpretatecd, so far you, Ken H and others are all puffed :-), no substiantial text, But I can still produce more and more commentarian text >>K:The development of samadhi is usually used as a basis of insight as show in >>the commentary of satipatthana sutta >.... >>.... > >K:>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > ><tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to a place > >in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced the first >absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis for developing >insight realized the first three fruitions of arahantship, while examining the >conformations [sankhare sammasanto], and stood having laid hold of the subject >of meditation for realizing the path of full arahantship.>> >.... >S: Qus: >1.Reflecting (wisely) on the corpse, by conditions of course, not by wishing for > >any result, did "He produce" the first absorption or were there conditions for >the first jhana citta to arise? > > >2.Was any Self involved? > >3. Did he "Make the factors of absorption a basis" for insight or, by >conditions, did it happen that insights arose with those factors as objects of >understanding (vipassana) just prior to the attaining of the stages of >enlightenment? > >4. In other words, did the various dhammas arise by conditions, beyond anyone's >control or did they arise because a Being forced and controlled the jhana cittas > >and then the enlightenment cittas? > >5. Are jhana cittas any less dukkha than any other conditioned dhammas? >.... > KO: Oh then the commentaries are all wrong, and you and AS are right :-). what all you have said only happened in supradmundane or from the delimiting of nama and rupa onawards. >... >>KO: Lets see what the commentary said about this > >pg 111, The Brahmajala Sutta, B Bodhi > ><interrogated, learned, memorized and reviewed the teachings on the aggregates, >elements, sense bases etc, The worlding who has done so is the good worldling >(kalyanaputhujjana)>> >.... >S: And what is the right study, right learning and right reviewing of the >khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas now? Is it book study or is it the direct >understanding of visible object and other rupas, vedana, sanna, citta and mental > >factors appearing now? If there is no beginning to understand the present dhamma > >appearing, there is no "right study" at all. The study that the Buddha taught is > >the study of present moment realities. >.... KO: hmm you have to asked the commentarians, this is not the first time , they said about learning and studying, you are just puff, please produce text. >K:> There are a few instances of memorisation as part of practise in the text. >.... >S: So what is this memorisation at this very moment? Is it rote learning of the >texts or is it the right remembering of what appears now with right awareness >and right understanding? > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57200 >"S: In, AN, 5s 'The Confounding of Saddhamma (b)' (PTS), we read about the 5 >things which lead to the disappearance of the Teachings: > >'Herein, monks, the monks master not Dhamma.... >They teach not others Dhamma in detail.... >They make not others speak it in detail... >They make no repetition of it in detail.... >The monks do not in their hearts turn over and ponder upon Dhamma, they >review it not in their minds.....' >..... >In AN,4s, 186 'Approach' (Ummagga), we read about the meaning of what this >'mastery' refers to. It refers to being 'widely learned' and 'knowing >Dhamma by heart'. > >This sounds like memorization of the texts, but what it says is: > >'...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,G aathaa, >Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla. Now if a monk >*UNDERSTANDS THE MEANING* and (text of) dhamma, - *EVEN IF IT BE BUT A >STANZA OF FOUR LINES*, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, >he may well be called 'one *WIDELY LEARNED*, *WHO KNOWS DHAMMA BY HEART*' " > KO: definitly, only those who are sotapanna knows dhamma by heart or the one who is on the path of sotapanna or at least receiters of the suttas etc. as I said many times, dont quote text out of context, all this refer to at least sotapanna. I am very confident of this, you could always asked Nina to check what I said correct or not :-) Ken O #114855 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Vince wrote: > S: I think B.Bodhi wrote a good essay refuting all the points, but don't have the> link handy. V:>ok, good to know about it. I will search it. Thanks :) .... S: In the files section, posted by Rob M: "A Critical Examination of Nanavira.doc " I forget if this was the one someone else pointed you to. ... >V: I think both wishes can show confidence in the Triple Gem. Although the pointof practice can be knowing the relation between wisdom and sila. >In example, if the same unwholesome action deserves the same unwholesome kammafor a sotapanna. Or as you say, is there are unwholesome actions which areimpossible to them. While the differences should be in wisdom, then knowing howpanna acts regarding sila in the present moment also in us, not only in ariyan people. ... S: As discussed, a sotapanna won't hurt or kill. They know that it's not the insect that hurts us, but our own unwholesome cittas and deeds. Metta Sarah ===== #114856 From: "colette" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 1:06 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) ksheri3 Hello Robert E., > > HOLD IT! (don't laugh too loud Robert, at what I'm about to put forth since I just got done with commenting on the fact that "JUSTICE, in our society today, is just a theory and thus a manifestation of the paper THE THEORY OF JUSTICE, plus another paper called THEORY THEORY TO THE MAX, this has reference to the theory of the MIND-ONLY school of Buddhism because it is all PROJECTION from a mind, any mind. Could be "this mind" or it could be "that mind"? Could be any mind?) > > If justice is a projection of mind, then projecting justice may be a good thing. Let's project justice along with metta and call it a nice day. > colette: STOP THAT! While it is true that your Vipissana and experience with the YOGACARA (MIND-ONLY) gives you the advantage, your rationality is and reasonable consciousness is just messing the hell out of my stage show. I'm trying to set up some good practical jokes that will keep people in stitches and allow them to die laughing. Give a poor "outsider" a chance to have some fun. You are absolutely correct. Each person projects a consciousness of WHAT JUSTICE IS, into this reality/world that we exist and suffer in. I was, maybe still am, trying to set up the CONSCIOUS "Illumination" of what some people refer to as being nothing more than "theory", of what JUSTICE is. Yes, my style and technique tends to "take the long way", the "round about way", but that's only because I'm relying on the certainty that building a proper FOUNDATION is the only way to construct of VALUE STRUCTURE, or any structure for that matter. PROJECTING JUSTICE IS A GOOD THING. THAT IS FINE. THAT IS REALITY. <....> That, my friend, is how I feel to bring CONSCIOUS RECOGNITION to the public to put an end to charlattanism in the political debates of this country and the world community. toodles, colette > > Alex: "The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. " > > > > colette: leads you where? JUST WHERE DOES THIS ALLEGED "PATH" LEAD A PERSON? > > To the goal. The path is a skillful means, which is what Buddhism is about - what means will liberate you from suffering. > > > ------------- > > > > Alex: "Only when one has cross the sea, only then one lets go of the raft. " > > > ... > > > Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. > > If you want to drown, that's a good strategy. colette: How can you say such a SLAVE COGNITION? I am suggesting that the boat's validity be questioned while in transit and in contact with the boat (see SHINTO, see Kabbalistic "shards" being in everything, it's a cognition of NATURE) A person can be EXPERIENCING the boat, reaching conclusions that the boat is non-existent and of little or no value (see Relative Truth and Ultimate Truth) and thus use their consciousness to manifest a "superiority" over the RUPA via NAMA. I learned way back in the 80s that a magician can be symbolized as a stuffed shirt type of mage or can be symbolized as a "juggler", meaning that matter cannot be created or destroyed BUT it can be RECONFIGURED. But this is getting far too deep into the actual practices of MEDITATION and the "mind's relationship" with/to the things it encounters. toodles, colette #114857 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 1, 2011 4:23 am Subject: Reminder time: salutations, trimming, keep it friendly! dsgmods Hi All, Just a couple of reminders. Salutations & sign-offs Please make it clear whom your post is addressed to (even if it's 'All'), and sign off at the end of every post (whether short or long) with your name. Trimming When replying to another member’s post, please remember to delete any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. Please also review the rest of the guidelines from time to time. They can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS As usual, any comments on this - off-list only. Thanks. #114858 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2011 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - In a message dated 5/1/2011 4:04:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Ken O), --- On Wed, 20/4/11, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: The topic and question raised originally in the thread was about how wisdom accumulates. My answer is that, by hearing, considering and developing wisdom now, it accumulates by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). ==================================== H:> My perspective is that wisdom (in the pa~n~na sense) is not a repository of knowledge that accumulates but a faculty/ability that "grows" in penetrative fuction and acuity; that is, if this beneficial process ("process" in the non-abhidhammic/ordinary sense) occurs, then future pa~n~na is "better" than prior. .... S: Yes, I would say, a particular mental state that "grows" in penetrative function and acuity (as you suggest). This is all that "accumulates" means. The reason this is possible is because of particular conditions, the main one of which is the one I mentioned above, not kamma as Ken O suggested before. Metta Sarah ==================================== You are correct, Sarah, as to the "main" cause, but it is still only one of at least eight. Moreover, if you will consider the eight that the Buddha lists below (in one sutta), I think it is clear that volition is one condition (among several) for each one of these causes, with the possible exception of the third (as it is stated). With metta, Howard ___________________________ AN 8.2 PTS: _A iv 151_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_IV_utf8.html#pts.151) Pañña Sutta: Discernment translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu _© 1997"2011_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He_[1]_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html#fn-1) reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... "Having heard the Dhamma, he_[2]_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html#fn-2) achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause, the fourth requisite condition... "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that " in their meaning & expression " proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth requisite condition... "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth cause, the sixth requisite condition... "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence._[3]_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html#fn-3) This is the seventh cause, the seventh requisite condition... "He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, the eighth requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. #114859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2011 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sampayutta dhammas nilovg Dear Philip and Lukas, Op 30-apr-2011, om 1:41 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Could you explain a liile more why citta and cetasika are > associated dhammas (sampayutta) > but seeing and visible object are not? Seeing cannot arise without > vusible object, right? So why aren't they associated in the way > citta and itsaccompanying cetasikas are? Because nama knows an > object? Is it through knowing that citta and cetasika are > sampayatta dhammas? ------ N: Lukas wants to know the difference between sahajata, conascence and sampayutta. Conascence-condition deals with naamas arising at the same time, with ruupas arising at the same time, and with naama and ruupa arising at the same time. Citta and cetasikas that arise together are conascence- condition for each other; the four Great Elements are conascence- condition for each other; the four Great Elements are are conascence- condition for the derived ruupas that arise in the same group (kalapa); the rebirth-consciousness is conascence-condition for the three groups of ruupa produced by kamma at the same time; among these is the heart-base, and the rebirth-consciousness and the heart-base mutually condition one another by way of conascence-condition. Citta and cetasikas are conascence-condition for the mind-produced ruupa that arises simultaneously. (See my book on Condiitons, p. 41 etc.) ----- Association-condition: this pertains only to citta and cetasikas that arise together at the same physical base, experience the same object and fall away together. Quote from my book on Conditions, p. 118: < Association-condition manifests the close association between citta and cetasikas. Although in the planes where there are five khandhas (nma and rpa) citta and cetasikas arise together with rpa, they are not associated with rpa in the same way as they are with each other. Feeling, for example, is nma, it is closely associated with citta and the other cetasikas. When lobha-mla-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling enjoys a pleasant sound, the accompanying cetasikas share the same object, and they are all affected by the pleasant feeling, they are conditioned by it by way of association-condition. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas are of a great diversity since each of them conditions the other nma-dhammas by way of association- condition. Kusala citta which is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas is quite different from akusala citta which is accompanied by akusala cetasikas. Some cetasikas can accompany cittas which are kusala, akusala, vipka or kiriya, but they are of a different quality in each of these cases. Effort or energy (viriya), for example, which is kusala, such as energy for generosity or for awareness at this moment, is quite different from energy which is akusala, such as wrong effort accompanying attachment.> -------- Nina. #114860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2011 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 30-apr-2011, om 22:33 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What do you mean by anumodana? What is the meaning of this term? ------- N: It means gratefulness or appreciation. It is a way of daana. When someone else is doing a good deed you may appreciate this with kusala citta, and that is a way of giving. Thus, the kusala citta of someone else is a condition for kusala citta in ourselves. I learnt this in Thailand. Also when with the group of friends in India we all said anumodana to each other for the kusala we had done, especially on the last day, bowing down to each other with clasped hands. That was a great occasion. We all rejoiced in the kusala of others. Khun Sujin who was always ready to give us dhamma talks, not thinking of tiredness, and the other friends helping wherever they could, having other people's happiness in mind. Another way of daana: extending merit. You let others know of your kusala, no matter they are alive or they have passed away, so that they also have kusala citta. No need to hide your kusala. Quite a lot of kusala can be seen as daana, also abstaining from ill deeds, as I said before. I want to add: when developing mettaa it is a condition for abstention, because you think of other people instead of yourself. When you see the benefit of mettaa it may come more naturally to you to abstain from drinking. Less of a struggle I would think. ------ Nina. #114861 From: Vince Date: Sun May 1, 2011 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: >>In example, if the same unwholesome action deserves the same unwholesome >>kammafor a sotapanna. Or as you say, is there are unwholesome actions which >>areimpossible to them. While the differences should be in wisdom, then knowing >>howpanna acts regarding sila in the present moment also in us, not only in >>ariyan people. > ... > S: As discussed, a sotapanna won't hurt or kill. They know that it's not the > insect that hurts us, but our own unwholesome cittas and deeds. that's my point of disagreement: I think they know the insect is not the author, although for the rest, they ignore what happens *in terms of experience*. If they say "that's citta, that's kamma", I think it would be just intellectual knowledge performed later; this is not an explanation of the lived experience. I understand this: - When they are keeping awareness of the present moment, then they know the mosquito is anatta by reviewing their previous experience of anattay. - By means this reviewing, then they avoid killing the mosquito. However, that same moment is not an experience of anatta but just a reviewed-knowledge. - Only arhants can know what hurt us in the present moment because they can abide in non-self. To support this view beyond my own thoughts, I post here a related Sutta with a stream-winner: --- "In the following passage, Khemaka " a monk who has attained the level of non-returner, and so has cut the first five fetters " indicates how self-identity views may be cut even though the mind has yet to cut the conceit, "I am," which ends only at the level of full awakening. [Khemaka:] "Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.' "It's just like the scent of a blue, red, or white lotus: If someone were to call it the scent of a petal or the scent of the color or the scent of a filament, would he be speaking correctly?" "No, friend." "Then how would he describe it if he were describing it correctly?" "As the scent of the flower: That's how he would describe it if he were describing it correctly." "In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html ---- so he don't assume "I am this" although he knows the "I am" has not been overcomed. He cannot assume the conventional reality because he had a previous experience of the truth, then he knows this is delusion. However, also he knows the "I am" has not been overcome, so he only can say: "As the scent of the flower" "As the scent of the flower" == "As the hurt of an insect" in terms of experience, he only know this. And by further explanation then appears citta, rupa, etc.. Note if a sotapanna has eradicated "I am" and he always knows citta, nama, rupa... then, Where can there be any place to conceive "I am"?. Would no that an arhant instead a sotapanna? Where it would be the difference? Can you clarify this difference according your understanding? thanks for the discussion! :) best, Vince. #114862 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2011 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna upasaka_howard Hi, Vince (and Sarah) - In a message dated 5/1/2011 1:52:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cerovzt@... writes: Dear Sarah you wrote: >>In example, if the same unwholesome action deserves the same unwholesome >>kammafor a sotapanna. Or as you say, is there are unwholesome actions which >>areimpossible to them. While the differences should be in wisdom, then knowing >>howpanna acts regarding sila in the present moment also in us, not only in >>ariyan people. > ... > S: As discussed, a sotapanna won't hurt or kill. They know that it's not the > insect that hurts us, but our own unwholesome cittas and deeds. that's my point of disagreement: I think they know the insect is not the author, although for the rest, they ignore what happens *in terms of experience*. If they say "that's citta, that's kamma", I think it would be just intellectual knowledge performed later; this is not an explanation of the lived experience. ============================= My view is as follows: With regard to swatting the insect, there will be the realization "This will cause pain and harm," and immediately there will arise the irresistible inclination not to engage in that action. With metta, Howard Avihimsa (Harmlessness) /Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. / (From the Karaniya Metta Sutta) #114863 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > You are absolutely correct. Each person projects a consciousness of WHAT JUSTICE IS, into this reality/world that we exist and suffer in. I was, maybe still am, trying to set up the CONSCIOUS "Illumination" of what some people refer to as being nothing more than "theory", of what JUSTICE is. In one moment of kusala citta, all is well with the universe. :-) > > > Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. > > > > If you want to drown, that's a good strategy. > > colette: How can you say such a SLAVE COGNITION? I am suggesting that the boat's validity be questioned while in transit and in contact with the boat (see SHINTO, see Kabbalistic "shards" being in everything, it's a cognition of NATURE) > > A person can be EXPERIENCING the boat, reaching conclusions that the boat is non-existent and of little or no value (see Relative Truth and Ultimate Truth) and thus use their consciousness to manifest a "superiority" over the RUPA via NAMA. I learned way back in the 80s that a magician can be symbolized as a stuffed shirt type of mage or can be symbolized as a "juggler", meaning that matter cannot be created or destroyed BUT it can be RECONFIGURED. But this is getting far too deep into the actual practices of MEDITATION and the "mind's relationship" with/to the things it encounters. In my view, if you find yourself on the boat, you probably still need it. If you are able to see that the boat is not necessary, you are already at your destination and the boat will cease to exist. If you are on the boat with no intention to jump off while speculating that it is not really necessary, in my view you are just screwing around. :-) Just my view. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114864 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 1:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Occasionally, during the day, instead of thinking about other beings with ignorance, attachment or aversion, instead there's thinking with kindness, metta, generosity, compassion or equanimity. Likewise, occasionally whilst thinking of concepts of various kinds, there's non-attachment, abstaining from harm, relinquishment or morality of one kind or other. If there is a development of understanding of the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states and a consideration of the value of the former, these are likely to grow and become more significant. I am correct that all of the above is in the conceptual realm? Would it be correct to say that if metta or other kusala cetasikas arise, that these arise with the thinking, even though the thinking is about concepts? Or does it arise between the thoughts? > Still, most of the day and for most (small)children or animals, even for most adults probably, there is little or no view about whether the visible object appearing now belongs to a Self or is seen by a Self or any one of the 20 kinds of sakkaya-ditthi. In other words, most beings (or kinds of consciousness referred to as beings), just conceptualise during the day in ignorance and attachment, but without sakkaya-ditthi arising UNLESS there is a reflecting of views about realities, truths and so on. So self-view is always an additional false concept, rather than the mere delusory perception of conceptually formed beings. Seeing a being as existent is a 'false view' but is not 'self view' which I guess is a more highly specialized and harmful view? So if a child learns through perceptual training that the moments they perceive add up to various sorts of beings and objects, that can have attachment or not have attachment, but I assume that when self-view is developed and beings and objects are seen in terms of "I, Me and Mine" there is much greater attachment and the development of much greater akusala. Is that the distinction, or are there other reasons why self-view is particularly pernicious? I guess you would also say that even the Buddha may engage in the 'false view' of beings, but without attachment, and while he may engage such 'false views' for convenience, he will never have a moment of engaging in 'self view.' If so, that would be a difference too. So when you look at the original example of a sotapanna engaged in sexual activity, he or she would obviously need to think of beings as existent in order to be involved in such a personal activity - probably true even for eating or walking - but that is relatively benign if done without attachment, whereas self-view always has attachment and would not arise for the sotapanna..? My only other question about this is whether a sotapanna would even engage in sexual activity. Is that still on the agenda for a stream-winner? Can a sotapanna be a householder with all the corresponding obligations? Can an arahant? > This is why the reflecting on Life and what is experienced with sakkaya-ditthi and other wrong views is actually more harmful than not reflecting on Life at all. Sometimes people don't think much about themselves or about any inner essence or light or soul and then they study religions, even Buddhism, and it is more clinging to self, more sakkaya-ditthi that is being developed. This is why the Buddha taught two paths - a right path and a wrong path. The wrong path begins with wrong understanding, wrong thinking, wrong effort and continues on, masquerading as the right path. Isn't the view of the existence of beings also a "wrong view?" Perhaps I do not understand the specialized nature of the term. And isn't self-view developed in daily life as well, not just through adopting a wrong spiritual philosophy? > So, back to your question about my comment above and Rob K's question about a sotapanna "having sex". There can be lots of attachment with regard to sensuous objects and concepts on account of these, such as with regard to another person with or without sakkaya-ditthi or attanu-ditthi (including wrong views about the khandhas taken as 'things', but not necessarily taken for Self). Most of the time, again, there is just ignorance and lots of attachment. Only panna (right understanding) can know if and when any ditthi arises. In a sotapanna's case, no ditthi arises and neither does any inclination at all to break the precepts, such as sexual misconduct of any kind. I think you've answered some of my questions above, but for clarity I will leave them there up there as separate questions, as there is still some confusion. > >In the ultimate view one would not have a concept of beings or a view of self - am I right? > .... > S: In the ultimate sense, there are only namas and rupas, mental and physical phenomena and therefore, there could not be a wrong view of anything else existing at this moment for the wise (i.e the ariyan disciple). There would still be all the usual concepts about people, tables, chairs and waves - life would go on as normal - but no wrong view, no doubt at all. > > Like now, I'm thinking about the letters, the words, about Rob E, about the message - all concepts, but no idea of there being anything other than the khandhas being experienced in reality. > > Pls ask anything else if this is not clear as I think it's an important topic to clarify. Thanks, Sarah. One final question: It seems to me that there would be a time when one would not even entertain any conceptual notions at all, and would only be in the presence of arising moments, seeing exactly what they are with clear arising citta. It sounds from the above that this sort of "pure" state would only be in play for short periods of time, or when nibbana has wiped away all cognizance of samsaric forms. Is there a time when the Buddha or an arahant is not doing anything 'worldly' when he or she would naturally reside in a state of total paramatha perception? Or do concepts always continue to arise while one is still in bodily form? I know that Buddha could go into the formless states at will and reside in the state of non-feeling, neither perception nor non-perception, etc., which he demonstrated prior to his parinibbana and reportedly did at other times. I wonder if he would 'hang out' in such a state when he didn't have anything else to do. :-) Or even take a break in complete cessation of nibbana. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114865 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 8:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ...I liked the story about the Tai Chi master and the "Invest in loss". We can learn a lot at times of loss. I think it's the Yang style long form of tai chi that I first learnt. It's a great form. Unfortunately I had a long break during which I "unlearnt" it. And haven't had the opportunity to re-learn during recent years - while being commanded to do various things by my wife and child. :-) I learned Yang style long form during college; then short form "Chen man Ching style" Yang in NY in my 20s; then in my 30s studied Quan Ping T'ai Chi for a little while, a more rare form, very nice. With a little work managed to forget all of them. :-) Sometime I will probably re-learn short form Yang, as it is good for health and energy. > .... > >R: The reason I am going on about this, is that one shouldn't be totally ruled by the appearance of physical attributes or physical circumstances, as there are always other factors at play, and other potentials possible. Even though things may seem quite impossible, it is worth considering what one can do anyway. I hope that Alex can practice mindfulness in bed, even when he is unable to sit up. > .... > S: Yes....even just before death, there may be mindfulness and understanding. The limits are mostly in the mind, not appreciating the power of the Teachings and their applicability to anytime, any reality. I like the way you put that - 'the power of the Teachings.' That is good to remember. > Thanks again for all your helpful reflections. :-) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #114866 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 9:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E (& Alex, also Ken O & Phil take note:-), > > Just to say that I thought all your comments below were helpful and a good summary. Somehow, you at least understand what we're trying to say, now keep passing it on to Alex & Ken O! I may not always agree, but I am happy to help! :-) > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Robert E wrote: > > >A:It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? > > >> This goes down a very slippery slope... > .... > > R:> Just to take the "dhammas only" side for a moment, the saving grace of this view is that killing someone still represents the most horrifically akusala citta, even if there is no one to be killed. The fact that one desires to kill someone represents intention/volition of such a deluded nature that it causes the worst possible vipaka. "Kamma patha" that allows one to "complete the action" is experienced as satisfying the akusala intention and thus creating akusala with no holding back. If one were to stop from killing after experiencing a murderous intention, then the kamma is not as bad, because the intention is not as strong. > > > >Imagine two cases - in one case a murderous feeling arises and at the moment of action the person relents and realizes that this is wrong and stops. In the other case, the person completes the murder and experiences "evil satisfaction" at getting their revenge. It is obvious that the second is not only a much worse action, but also represents a much more unwholesome intention, with resultant very unpleasant vipaka. > > > >Whether or not one agrees with the above model of reality, we can understand that it would cause one to refrain from akusala activity, and beyond that, to see akusala intention as the real culprit. Unlike the ordinary person who thinks they will only be punished for evil deeds, the person who sees these negative intentions arise and believes that kamma is intention will see these intentions as very dangerous to their well-being, even if the action is never performed. > > > >That person will guard their thoughts and intentions with mindfulness in a way that would not occur to the ordinary person. > .... > S: Nicely put - all "dhammas only" as you stated at the outset. Thx, Rob! I just want to say that it took a number of conversations here, where I questioned you, Jon and others about the workings of kamma, kamma patha and vipaka, to piece together some understanding of how this works on the level of intention/cetana. It really was a project because I found the entire subject of kamma as intention and action very confusing, and have for some time. I will say that it is a complex subject and still has many aspects that I want to inquire into, but the piece described above started to make sense to me after a number of rounds of questioning and some good explanations, mostly from yourself. So my understanding of this subject has a high degree of dsg contribution. I may go back to arguing about parts of it again sometime soon, but I'm glad I at least understand part of it. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - #114867 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 1:05 pm Subject: Tranquillity! bhikkhu5 Friends: Tranquillity is a Link to Awakening! The Tranquillity Link to Awakening (passaddhi-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of peace, and the function of stilling, which manifests as absence of restless trembling. Stillness of feeling, perception and mental construction is the factor that induces bodily Tranquillity. Stillness of consciousness itself induces mental Tranquillity. The proximate cause of Tranquillity is the satisfaction within Joy! The resulting effect of Tranquillity is the bliss within Happiness! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Tranquillity Link to Awakening based on seclusion, based on disillusion, based on ceasing, and culminating in cool relinquishment, then neither can mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor any discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who is joyous, the body becomes calm & the mind becomes calm. The Tranquillity Link to Awakening emerges right there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] CALMED Calm is his thought, calm is his speech, and calm is his deed, who, truly knowing, is wholly freed, perfectly tranquil and wise. Dhammapada 96 CONTENT The one who eliminates discontent, tearing it out by the roots, utterly cuts it out, such one spontaneously becomes absorbed in the calm of tranquillity both day & night. Dhammapada 250 COMPOSED The one who is tranquil in movement, calmed in speech, stilled in thought, collected & composed, who sees right through & rejects all allurements of this world, such one is truly a 'Peaceful One'. Dhammapada 378 Inspirations on the calming & soothing of serene Tranquillity (Passaddhi): Tranquillity_Passaddhi , Feeding_Tranquillity , The_Tranquil_One One the related state of Calm (Samatha ): Forest Bliss , Calm , Calm_and_Insight , Calm_Power, Calmed , Breathing_Calm_and_Insight , Silenced , Forest_Bliss2 ... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114868 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: You mean kusala tendencies/inclinations I think. As Nina explained and as I am stressing, these also lie dormant in each citta and "accumulate" each time they condition the arising of those states by natural decisive support condition, just like in the case of the akusala states which you seem to agree with. This is the continuity. Also other conditions such as contiguity, repetition and so on play their part. Sanna, when it is kusala or akusala is another mental factor which accumulates in the same way. Cetana too. When the cetana (kamma) has accumulated to a particular strength it conditions deeds and actions which bring results. Thus we have the 3 rounds of kusala/akusala, kamma and vipaka, on and on. Can you explain again how tendencies "lie dormant" in a citta, and are carried by that citta? I am having a hard time imagining how that is possible in a momentary act of consciousness. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114869 From: "colette" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 2:23 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) ksheri3 Hi Robert, > > Alex: "The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. " > > > > colette: leads you where? JUST WHERE DOES THIS ALLEGED "PATH" LEAD A PERSON? > > To the goal. The path is a skillful means, which is what Buddhism is about - what means will liberate you from suffering. > colette: nothing like "good clean fun". Good show: taking the concept I was questioning Alex about to use as the answer/logic/reason, to use as THE MEANS TO AN END, in a round-about way. Now the OBJECT OF CLINGING, the OBJECT OF DESIRE, is the alleged "Liberation" from suffering. And to this END, then, we are to ACCEPT, to ACKNOWLEDGE (consciously and knowingly, mind you) that the END justifies the MEANS. Hmmmmm, where have I heard that before? Is it RULE UTILITARIANISM or is it just UTILITARIANISM? That's a side issue I won't bother with at this time. Since I, and you, have established the rules of the game of life, here, I guess we can get into this KUSALA and AKUSALA issue, as it pertains to THE OBJECTIVE or GOAL. I should know since about 95% of everything that I own, and have acquired since 2000, is from Dumpsters, aka the garbage, in the alleys, meaning that one man's garbage is another man's treasure. Are we to believe that GARBAGE IS KUSALA to all people at all times? Garbage is BIG BUSINESS, baby. In fact San Francisco is mainly built on GARBAGE aka LANDFILL. Now that's a substantial FOUNDATION upon which to create LIQUIFACTION ("I feel the earth, move, under my feet, I feel the sky come a tumblin' down"); there have recently been many documentaries about Japan, lately, that actually show videos of LIQUIFACTION IN ACTION, ACTUALLY ACCURING aka "real time". I have to ask, question, THEN: at what point does garbage possess AKUSALA qualities? What are the characteristics of GARBAGE that create AKUSALA conditions? WHY? (Now that's interesting. The Kagyu order of Buddhism is NOT THERAVADAN, I wonder what kind of "action" I can get out of the TANTRA process by cognizing and THEN ACTUALIZING your application? Yes, I know it's just another one of my crazy delusions and/or hallucinations but I could never make this attempted application before, even though I had cognized the reality of it's existence when I disconnected the KAGYU order from my "GROUPS" and chose to focus here in the DSG. I believe Sammy Hagar said it best in his song "Snortin' whiskey": "INSANITY".) For me, myself, I, I can acknowledge the validity of GARBAGE BEING A TREASURE while, for instance, a manufactured plastic ken doll like Donald Trump, can only despise garbage, REFUSE.<.....>What would a Buddhist do to assist sentient beings from experiencing SUFFERING (see 4 Noble Truths, it's a complex theory and philosophy that boggles the minds of people who are imprisoned by books and their devotion to the superiority of TWO DIMENSIONAL REALITY as issued by the creator deity called THE PUBLISHER). I ponder these things.) ------------------------ > > Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. > > If you want to drown, that's a good strategy. > colette: why is drowning an issue? I am not suggesting an adoration of sitting down in the middle of the street, pouring gasoline on my body or any person's body, then setting the gasoline ablaze. <....>I am agreeing with the MEDITATIVE PRACTICES ADVISED IN THE PRACTICES OF YOGAS. <....> IF Drowning is your RUPA, represents an ILLUSION of something that you cling to, which you cling to as a means of EXISTING, THEN how is it possible for you to even comprehend something as monumental as THE BARDO THODOL? Thank you for acknowledging my inquiry. I wish they didn't butcher it so highly in THE EDITING DEPT., but such is the case. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: <...> > > Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. > > If you want to drown, that's a good strategy. <....> #114870 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 9:20 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > Alex: "The path is not the goal, it just leads you there. " > > > > > > colette: leads you where? JUST WHERE DOES THIS ALLEGED "PATH" LEAD A PERSON? > > > > To the goal. The path is a skillful means, which is what Buddhism is about - what means will liberate you from suffering. > > > > colette: nothing like "good clean fun". Good show: taking the concept I was questioning Alex about to use as the answer/logic/reason, to use as THE MEANS TO AN END, in a round-about way. > > Now the OBJECT OF CLINGING, the OBJECT OF DESIRE, is the alleged "Liberation" from suffering. And to this END, then, we are to ACCEPT, to ACKNOWLEDGE (consciously and knowingly, mind you) that the END justifies the MEANS. Hmmmmm, where have I heard that before? Is it RULE UTILITARIANISM or is it just UTILITARIANISM? That's a side issue I won't bother with at this time. I think it is the issue, not a side issue. Buddha said he taught only suffering and the end of suffering. The path that gets to that goal is all that matters. Luckily liberation of the mind is included in that program. Buddha was interested in skill and skillful qualities to reach that goal. The path is 100% utilitarian. > I have to ask, question, THEN: at what point does garbage possess AKUSALA qualities? What are the characteristics of GARBAGE that create AKUSALA conditions? WHY? As you say, garbage is in the mind of the beholder, and kusala and akusala are mental qualities, not physical ones. > (Now that's interesting. The Kagyu order of Buddhism is NOT THERAVADAN, I wonder what kind of "action" I can get out of the TANTRA process by cognizing and THEN ACTUALIZING your application? It's a mater of whether it works for you or not. > ------------------------ > > > > Alex, I do not believe that a person has to cross the sea before that person can let go of the raft. The raft can be gotten rid of while in route to the destination. IMO. > > > > If you want to drown, that's a good strategy. > > > > colette: why is drowning an issue? I am not suggesting an adoration of sitting down in the middle of the street, pouring gasoline on my body or any person's body, then setting the gasoline ablaze. <....>I am agreeing with the MEDITATIVE PRACTICES ADVISED IN THE PRACTICES OF YOGAS. <....> The issue is giving up the boat in the middle of the ocean if you recall. That is why drowning is relevant, metaphorically speaking. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114871 From: Vince Date: Sun May 1, 2011 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Upasaka wrote: > My view is as follows: With regard to swatting the insect, there will > be the realization "This will cause pain and harm," and immediately there > will arise the irresistible inclination not to engage in that action. yes.. So at that same moment... Do you think it was because sila or because wisdom?. I don't have a clear idea but I try to see some light to clarify what's the progress. best, Vince. #114872 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 1, 2011 11:49 pm Subject: tanha paccaya upadana szmicio Hi friends, What are the differences in characteristic between tanha and upadana? Best wishes Lukas #114873 From: Lukas Date: Sun May 1, 2011 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna szmicio Hi Vince and Howard > > My view is as follows: With regard to swatting the > insect, there will > > be the realization "This will cause pain and harm," > and immediately there > > will arise the irresistible inclination not to engage > in that action. > > yes.. So at that same moment... Do you think it was because > sila or because wisdom?. L: So this is inclination. People thinks different. I also come up with different thinkings, but I cant stop it or make kusala thinking arise. This appears on conditions. samma-sankapa i think is right thinking. Because of right understanding there is more right thinking. I think the point here is develop more understanding, so that there will be more conditions for kusala. What is knowing the rigt path. There is bigger rest when just knowing the right conditions for kusala, or me that has that or that particular thought. Best wishes Lukas #114874 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon May 2, 2011 12:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again szmicio Dear Sarah, > >> S: ..I remember when I was a child and my family would go on long car journeys with my mother trying to keep us quiet with sweets - it always seemed we could eat more and more...... > ... > >L: Well that may be interesting to hear more on those trips :P Where it was?In England? > > >How could you deal wit pleasant sights? How with different pleasant stories about u in this or that 'wonderful' place? > .... > S: Yes, I grew up in England - long car journeys along country lanes (in those days, no motorways) to visit elderly relatives or go on holidays. L: Dont u miss it? > How did I deal with pleasant sights and stories? Just like now - mostly all day with lobha:-) Common, ordinary lobha. L: So this is just daily life? Just know that in such moments no understanding? Acharn answer me: just understand what's ignored by ignorance. When I was on my retreat I had a lot of moments of non-understanding, of confussion, of no seftyness. Then I reflected thus: sokaparidevadukkhadomanassa it will arise in each moment, when there are conditions. Nothing to do with this, That's according to the teachings of Bhagava. Just consider slowly the kamma-vipaka right now. Such thinkings are very helpful. > .... > >>S:and now I'm paying the price with long sessions at the dentist! > ... > >L: So how do you manage this? pain and all unpleasantness? I used to think a long stories about me and myself...and also find myself I put so many importance to what other says about me. L: I think often about what they says. But also there is citta know, that has the characteristic of exeperience. I always stack at that point. The characteristic of experiencing the object, even thoug the characteristic is not yet known. > No rest at all. L: Is there any difference about rest with samatha and satipatthana? > .... > S: Again, mostly managed like anyone else with dosa and moha, but actually some attachment to just resting and relaxing and chatting with the dentist. L: Oh so just usual. The same with me, but I always think maybe that should be something special. >S: In between, seeing, hearing - any dosa is very momentary and doesn't last at all. I don't often think about what others say about me - not much interest:-) Thinking's just thinking and there can be awareness anytime of it. This way we give less importance to both our own and others' thinking. Just passing namas of no significance. > .... > Lukas, it's really unhelpful to try and know any reality now. The path is about just understanding naturally and easily, not trying to do anything. This is a hindrance - just accumulating more self-attachment at such times. > ... L: I am constantly forgetting this :P When reading or listening to Dhamma discurses I cling so much to the result, to some calmness. I want to be that person not that one. This is my accumulation. Best wishes Lukas #114875 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon May 2, 2011 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sampayutta dhammas szmicio Hi Phil I actually wrote u a post on DSG(mentioning starbucks there) and I cant see it anywhere. Maybe u can give me(offlist) ur phone number so I can call u or/also a skype login.I can try to call u. Thanks for your help. This is very good to feel that u try to help me. Best wishes Lukas > Lukas, you are getting good advice from different angles. Sarah C spoke very forthrightly about the need to stop the destructive behaviour. Nina points out the deeper truth of the matter, that at the paramattha level, "there is ignorance that covers up the truth of realities" when drinking. And that would include ignorance dressed up as thinking about anatta as one lifts the glass and believing it to be satiapatthana, so let's be aware of that sort of self-deception. > > I saw "we", because I have addictions too. Currenly, the i-phone, and following baseball obsessively. Until I sort out that behaviour, I won't be reflecting on deep teachings. The Buddha said that a dirty cloth can't absorb colored dye, and a disturbed mind can't absorb the deep teachings. That is clear. So when you are drinking, and I am frying my brain on baseball and web browsing, let's not let ourselves be attracted by thinking about the deep teachings. Let's stop doing the things that hurt ourselves and others first. Getting an i-phone on my return from Thailand was a *huge* blunder that I somehow have to work myself out of, I was having such a productive time before my trip to Thailand. Going drinking is a blunder for you. It's a bit tougher for me in a sense because the Buddha didn't explicitly warn against frying one's brain cells on the internet, but he did speak explicitly against drinking. So you have the Buddha directly at your side, steering you in a wise direction. I have to find his direction (understanding) in a not so obvious way. > > Again, as I was saying to you offlist, if there is a physical addiction and even if you deny it, who knows for sure, you are asking the wrong people for help, you need to speak to a professional expert in getting people off alcohol addiction. > > I'm going to leave it there. I don't know if my words have been helpful at all. I only have 4 days left in my early summer vacation so will be off the computer, and i-phone, so won't be able to call. > > But I am on your side. Please look into samattha meditation. Even if it is full of attachment to having pleasant feeling, attachment to pleasant mental feeling through meditation is better than attachment to pleasant mental feeling through alcohol, and anyone who tells you otherwise is not being a good friend to you at that moment, though they mean well, of course. #114876 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon May 2, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sampayutta dhammas szmicio Dear Nina, Thank u for answer. I need to read your conditions for the end. For now I am in the middle of it. I was asking not sahajata, but sahagata. For example: somanassasahagata. Associated with pleasant feeling. This is mentioned on the begining of Coprehensive manual of abhidhamma. best wishes Lukas > > Could you explain a liile more why citta and cetasika are > > associated dhammas (sampayutta) > > but seeing and visible object are not? Seeing cannot arise without > > vusible object, right? So why aren't they associated in the way > > citta and itsaccompanying cetasikas are? Because nama knows an > > object? Is it through knowing that citta and cetasika are > > sampayatta dhammas? > ------ > N: Lukas wants to know the difference between sahajata, conascence > and sampayutta. > > Conascence-condition deals with naamas arising at the same time, with > ruupas arising at the same time, and with naama and ruupa arising at > the same time. Citta and cetasikas that arise together are conascence- > condition for each other; the four Great Elements are conascence- > condition for each other; the four Great Elements are are conascence- > condition for the derived ruupas that arise in the same group > (kalapa); the rebirth-consciousness is conascence-condition for the > three groups of ruupa produced by kamma at the same time; among these > is the heart-base, and the rebirth-consciousness and the heart-base > mutually condition one another by way of conascence-condition. Citta > and cetasikas are conascence-condition for the mind-produced ruupa > that arises simultaneously. (See my book on Condiitons, p. 41 etc.) > ----- > Association-condition: this pertains only to citta and cetasikas that > arise together at the same physical base, experience the same object > and fall away together. Quote from my book on Conditions, p. 118: > < Association-condition manifests the close association between citta > and cetasikas. Although in the planes where there are five khandhas > (nma and rpa) citta and cetasikas arise together with rpa, they > are not associated with rpa in the same way as they are with each > other. Feeling, for example, is nma, it is closely associated with > citta and the other cetasikas. When lobha-mla-citta accompanied by > pleasant feeling enjoys a pleasant sound, the accompanying cetasikas > share the same object, and they are all affected by the pleasant > feeling, they are conditioned by it by way of association-condition. > Citta and the accompanying cetasikas are of a great diversity since > each of them conditions the other nma-dhammas by way of association- > condition. Kusala citta which is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas is > quite different from akusala citta which is accompanied by akusala > cetasikas. Some cetasikas can accompany cittas which are kusala, > akusala, vipka or kiriya, but they are of a different quality in > each of these cases. Effort or energy (viriya), for example, which is > kusala, such as energy for generosity or for awareness at this > moment, is quite different from energy which is akusala, such as > wrong effort accompanying attachment.> > > -------- > Nina. > > > > > > > > #114877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2011 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sampayutta dhammas nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 2-mei-2011, om 9:14 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I was asking not sahajata, but sahagata. For example: > somanassasahagata. Associated with pleasant feeling. ------ N: You are right. Sahagata: accompanied with, associated with. This is used in another context, namely when classifying the different types of citta, sobhana or akusala. It is said specifically of the feeling accompanying the citta. Sahagata does not refer to a condition like sampayutta and it is used in a context different from sampayutta. ------ Nina. #114878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2011 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha paccaya upadana nilovg Dear Lukas, I am glad you are so active and interested now, asking questions. Op 2-mei-2011, om 8:49 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > What are the differences in characteristic between tanha and upadana? > -------- N: I quote from my Visuddhimagga studies, Ch XVII, 249: < [How Craving is a Condition for Clinging] Intro: In this section it is explained in which ways craving conditions clinging. Clinging, upaadaana, is firm grasping, it is craving, ta.nhaa, that has become strong. As we have seen, there is craving for sense-desires (kaama ta.nhaa), craving for becoming (bhava ta.nhaa) and craving for non-becoming (vibhava ta.nhaa). The four kinds of clinging are: sense-desire clinging, [false-] view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging and self-doctrine clinging. The latter three kinds are forms of clinging with wrong view. The types of conditions that are operating in the case of craving that conditions clinging are mentioned in this section. ----- Text Vis. 248: As regards the four kinds of clinging taught in this way, craving for sense desires is a condition in one way, as decisive-support, for the first kind, namely, sense-desire clinging, because it arises in relation to the objective field in which craving delights. --------- N: Craving delights in all the objects that can be experienced through the six doorways. When there is craving again and again it becomes firm grasping, it conditions clinging by way of decisive support. --------- Text Vis. : But it is a condition in seven ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, non-disappearance, and root-cause, or in eight ways, as [those and] decisive-support as well, for the remaining three kinds. --------- N: The remaining three kinds of clinging pertain to wrong view, di.t.thi. Craving, which is lobha cetasika, conditions wrong view, di.t.thi, in this context three kinds of clinging, upaadaana. Lobha and di.t.thi, when they arise together with the lobha-muulacitta, condition one another by way of conascence-condition. The seven conditions mentioned in the text pertain to conascent conditions. Lobha is an akusala root, hetu, and thus it conditions wrong view also by way of root-condition. -------- Text Vis. : And when it is a condition as decisive-support, then it is never conascent. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With craving as condition, clinging'. --------- Nina. #114879 From: "azita" Date: Mon May 2, 2011 3:10 am Subject: Re: Problems again gazita2002 Hallo Lucas, unfortunately I am leaving Thailand tomorrow and will not see Achan for a while so cannot put yr next question to her. I think this dsg site is quite good for any queries you have so I encourage you to keep asking yr questions, we can never have too much of the truth:) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Azita > Thank u very much. Could I ask more questions? > > The next question is: > "What if I am alcoholic? If drinking no understanding." > > #114880 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 2, 2011 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna upasaka_howard Hi, Vince - In a message dated 5/2/2011 1:56:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cerovzt@... writes: Upasaka wrote: > My view is as follows: With regard to swatting the insect, there will > be the realization "This will cause pain and harm," and immediately there > will arise the irresistible inclination not to engage in that action. yes.. So at that same moment... Do you think it was because sila or because wisdom?. -------------------------------------------------- Why either/or? Wisdom and compassion can be conjoined. ------------------------------------------------- I don't have a clear idea but I try to see some light to clarify what's the progress. best, Vince. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114881 From: Vince Date: Mon May 2, 2011 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Hi (Howard, Lukas) you wrote: >H: Why either/or? Wisdom and compassion can be conjoined. yes. From here the discussion about if sotapannas can break some precept. Some people in Buddhism says their sila already is perfect despite their wisdom still is not. On my understanding it would mean both are not conjoined. I wonder when sila is already perfect then how can be a progress of wisdom for the non-eradicated fetters. >L: I think the point here is develop more understanding, so that there will be more >L: conditions for kusala. or by the other side: by missing kusala and feeling dhukka there is development of wisdom. Then it would mean sila cannot be perfect while there is need of more wisdom. It isn't?. Well, this is what I think until today... best, Vince. #114882 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 2, 2011 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Sarah As I said that kamma accumulates but not citta. Till date no commentarian proof from your or Nina that citta accumulates just saying javana cittas through dependent support condition and I have yet come across commentarian text that support this position. And I came to the opinion that the roles of how cetasikas accumulates or rather will they accumulates or will they increase or decrease as accumulation meant differently from descrease or increase. Then later, I also said to Rob E that skillfulness does accumulate according to commentary which usually refer to kusala cetasikas. I forget where the skillfulness does accumulate it should be either in the commentary to the Buddha stories or the Udana. I will correct my views in accordance to the commentary and not to my personal interpretation or inference. Ken O > > >Hi Howard (& Ken O), > >--- On Wed, 20/4/11, upasaka@... wrote: > >>>S: The topic and question raised originally in the thread was about how >wisdom accumulates. My answer is that, by hearing, considering and developing >wisdom now, it accumulates by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support >condition). > >==================================== > >H:> My perspective is that wisdom (in the pa~n~na sense) is not a >repository of knowledge that accumulates but a faculty/ability that "grows" in >penetrative fuction and acuity; that is, if this beneficial process ("process" >in the non-abhidhammic/ordinary sense) occurs, then future pa~n~na is "better" >than prior. > >.... >S: Yes, I would say, a particular mental state that "grows" in penetrative >function and acuity (as you suggest). This is all that "accumulates" means. >The reason this is possible is because of particular conditions, the main one of > >which is the one I mentioned above, not kamma as Ken O suggested before. > >Metta > >Sarah >====== > > > #114883 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 2, 2011 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 ashkenn2k Dear Sarah I understand nama and rupa only as I was a dinosaur before but do you understand the Buddha teachings are not restricted to nama and rupa. Nama and rupa are important to the clear comprehension and development of insight. But there are not the only components to the development of insight, they are also samantha, there also virtures, there are also jhanas. That is the position of the commentarian, the Abhidhamma and the suttas. Ken O > >From: sarah abbott >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 18:19:11 >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: >KK March 2011 > > >Hi Rob E (& Alex, also Ken O & Phil take note:-), > >Just to say that I thought all your comments below were helpful and a good >summary. Somehow, you at least understand what we're trying to say, now keep >passing it on to Alex & Ken O! > >--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Robert E wrote: >> >A:It sounds like even if a person would physically kill someone (from >>conventional POV), it wouldn't be considered killing from an ultimate POV? Is >>this the sense in which sotapanna cannot kill anyone? Because s/he doesn't >>believe in "living beings"? So if a person is killed, it is due to his/her >>vipaka and has nothing to do with the killer? > >>> This goes down a very slippery slope... >.... > >R:> Just to take the "dhammas only" side for a moment, the saving grace of this >view is that killing someone still represents the most horrifically akusala >citta, even if there is no one to be killed. The fact that one desires to kill >someone represents intention/volition of such a deluded nature that it causes >the worst possible vipaka. "Kamma patha" that allows one to "complete the >action" is experienced as satisfying the akusala intention and thus creating >akusala with no holding back. If one were to stop from killing after >experiencing a murderous intention, then the kamma is not as bad, because the >intention is not as strong. > >>Imagine two cases - in one case a murderous feeling arises and at the moment of > >>action the person relents and realizes that this is wrong and stops. In the >>other case, the person completes the murder and experiences "evil satisfaction" > >>at getting their revenge. It is obvious that the second is not only a much worse >> >>action, but also represents a much more unwholesome intention, with resultant >>very unpleasant vipaka. > >>Whether or not one agrees with the above model of reality, we can understand >>that it would cause one to refrain from akusala activity, and beyond that, to >>see akusala intention as the real culprit. Unlike the ordinary person who thinks >> >>they will only be punished for evil deeds, the person who sees these negative >>intentions arise and believes that kamma is intention will see these intentions > >>as very dangerous to their well-being, even if the action is never performed. > >>That person will guard their thoughts and intentions with mindfulness in a way >>that would not occur to the ordinary person. >.... >S: Nicely put - all "dhammas only" as you stated at the outset. Thx, Rob! > >Metta > >Sarah >====== #114884 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 2, 2011 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Sarah: You mean kusala tendencies/inclinations I think. As Nina explained and as I >am stressing, these also lie dormant in each citta and "accumulate" each time >they condition the arising of those states by natural decisive support >condition, just like in the case of the akusala states which you seem to agree >with. This is the continuity. Also other conditions such as contiguity, >repetition and so on play their part. Sanna, when it is kusala or akusala is >another mental factor which accumulates in the same way. Cetana too. When the >cetana (kamma) has accumulated to a particular strength it conditions deeds and >actions which bring results. Thus we have the 3 rounds of kusala/akusala, kamma >and vipaka, on and on. KO: There are only negative tendecies and there is no such thing as kusala tendecies, the text is very clear on this pg 209 The Dispeller of Delusion II <<2292 In the description of svakara ("have good qualitites") because there is no inherent tendecy called "good" therefore "of good inherent tendency " (kalyaanusaya) is not said. The rest should be understood in the opposite way to that already stated>> Also anusaya accumulates does not mean citta accumulates. We have to be clear on the definition of dhamma. Inseparable does not mean same Ken O > >From: sarah abbott >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 18:33:35 >Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated > > >Dear Ken O (& Rob E), > >--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Ken O wrote: > >>>R:Could I ask you how latency takes place for akusala intentions, and how this > >>>>does not exist for kusala intentions? > >>K: I could only answer how for aksuala intentions, >.... >S: it's exactly the same for kusala or akusala. It's just that the term anusaya >just refers to particular akusala states. The conditions applying are just the >same. > > >>The Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary. pg 261 > ><<9. ....... >>And here the ignorance that arises subsequently should be understood as the >>taint of ignorance. The previously arisen ignorance itself becomes a decisive >>support condition for the subsequently arisen taint of ignorance. The rest by >>the aforesaid method. >.... >S: In just the same way previously arisen panna (understanding) becomes a >decisive support condition for subsequent panna. This is just as I've been >suggesting to you. We can't just read passages in isolation, but have to >consider the Tipitaka as a whole. It is this condition, not kamma condition that > >is important here. >.... >>KO: As for kusala intentions, there is no such "latency". There are only asaya >> >>(inclinations) which could be kusala or akusala. But they are not like latency > >>which condition the arising of defilements, rather they are like weighted >>average or inclinations (which is a good translation). >... >S: The inclinations (not intentions - this only refers to cetana) are also >latent in the case of asaya, referring to kusala or akusala. Just like the >anusaya, they lie dormant/latent, but condition the arising of those states. >Inclinations is fine, but "weighted average" is not:-)) >... >>K: These are few terms which I have yet clearly understand its role in the >>overall context of nama and rupa. Somehow there is a sense of discontinuity >>for kusala intentions which is unlike aksuala where there is latency. I am not > >>sure of this and how does kusala has a contintuity. I suspect mostly on the >>universal cetasikas like sanna and kamma. >... >S: You mean kusala tendencies/inclinations I think. As Nina explained and as I >am stressing, these also lie dormant in each citta and "accumulate" each time >they condition the arising of those states by natural decisive support >condition, just like in the case of the akusala states which you seem to agree >with. This is the continuity. Also other conditions such as contiguity, >repetition and so on play their part. Sanna, when it is kusala or akusala is >another mental factor which accumulates in the same way. Cetana too. When the >cetana (kamma) has accumulated to a particular strength it conditions deeds and >actions which bring results. Thus we have the 3 rounds of kusala/akusala, kamma >and vipaka, on and on. > >Metta > >Sarah >====== > >Sanna in the sense of marking objects which is related to kusala and kamma which > > > >accumulates the volition of kusala and also co-ordinate the other cetasikas on > >the object. Things are never "lost" as this two cetasikas continue in the life > >mental continuum until PariNibbana. These are my personal opinions. > >Ken O > > > #114885 From: "philip" Date: Mon May 2, 2011 7:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sampayutta dhammas philofillet Hi Lukas (p.s to Nina) > I actually wrote u a post on DSG(mentioning starbucks there) and I cant see it anywhere. > Maybe u can give me(offlist) ur phone number so I can call u or/also a skype login.I can try to call u. > Thanks for your help. This is very good to feel that u try to help me. I hope I was able to help a little. It's really not a complicted issue. It's difficult to defeat habitual alcohol use, very very difficult. Anyone that tells you that "trying to stop bad behaviour is not the way, because it is all about self wanting to be a good person" is at such times is not being a good friend, though it sounds so attractive and deep. It's not complicated. You know what to do. Just please please please don't fool yourself by thinking about anatta and paramattha dhammas while drinking. Well, you can think that it's true of course that the dhammas that lead you (us to drink are paramattha at the root of things and it can help you at times if you feel depressed by not being able to defeat your alcohol habit. But at those times thinking about paramattha dhammas is just using the deep teachings as an emotional lift out of remorse (or for deluded paramatthists who don't even have any remorse about bad behaviour, it is a dangerous rationalization for bad behaviour) surely it is full of attachment, and thinking that real understanding of dhammas is developing at such times is a dangerous road to go. Good luck. I am dealing with my own addiction, so can't help any further than this now. We can do it! Metta, Phil p.s thanks also Nina for your latest response to my question, and for all your clear explanations. #114886 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 2, 2011 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Sarah > >>>S: As Ken H quoted recently from the Yamaka Sutta: >>"In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in >>the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." > >>>The weighty kamma is because of the intensity of the hatred whilst performing >>>such an act. This intense kamma patha is due to wrong view. As discussed >>>recently with Vince and others, a sotapanna will have no idea of killing a being >>> >>>because of the understanding of all namas and rupas as anatta. It is wrong view >> >>>which thinks our deeds can kill other beings. In fact it is only kamma that can >> >>>condition the cuti citta, the last moment of life. It's a vipaka citta, like >>>patisandhi (the birth citta) and all the bhavanga cittas. The more we understand >>> >>>life as one moment of citta, the less will we live under the delusion that we >>>live among people, wanting to harm and kill. In fact, there's never anyone at >>>all, just the arising of kusala and akusala cittas which depend on conditions. >... >>KO: your statements are not in line with the commentary >.... >S: All of them? :-)) >S: As I said, because of the intensity of the intention (kamma) that motivates >the particular deeds. As we know, all other things being equal, the intensity of > >intention to kill a large animal is greater than to kill a small animal or >insect and the intensity to kill a human.....one of virtue.....an ariyan is >greater still. The intensity of intention and the attempt to harm or kill the >Buddha is greatest of all. When we refer to Devadatta, Ajatasattu, we are >referring to particular namas and rupas. They are not all the same:-) If they >were, there'd be no reason to name these ones Devadatta and those ones Buddha. >Each visible object is different, each citta is different. Lots of suttas and >texts refer to the different kinds of kamma involved. KO: As I said, kamma effects on concepts, intensity does not equate with kamma. No offence so anyone, just like Hilter or like Osama who IMHO have enormous intensity of hatred due to delusion or wrong view. Or maybe another story, a disciple who under wrong view, killed 999 peopld before he killed his mother, Buddha stopped him. As killing a mother is a weighty kamma and prevent insight to arise to achieve enlightement. Let us see the story of Devadatta. The commentaries said that Devadatta and Buddha have been reborn and met for thousands of lives, and Devadatta ill will towards him have been growing since. Buddha admits him to the order even though he knows one day Devadatta would cause a schism in the order. If he does not admit Devadatta to the order, Devadatta would be in the state of woes for even longer, many eons in the state of woe. By admiting Devadatta, Devadatta will only suffer one eon in hell and thereafter be reborn as a paceekaBuddha known as Atthissara. I like the verse by Devadatta before he died where he took refuge on Buddha, The Questions of King Malinda IV, 1, 32 "In him who is the best of the best, The gods of gods, the guide of gods and men Who see'th all, and bears the hundred marks Of goodness - 'tis in him I refuge take Though all the lives that I may have to live." For Ajasattu, it was wrong view and delusion which he believe in Devadatta in result killed his father. But after killing his father, he could rest in peace unitl listening to the Compassionate one (Buddha) Ajasattu. The commentary said that he will suffer 60,000 years in hell and thereafter in future lives become a paccekabuddha >>K: Under right view there is such a statement in the suttas and the texts which > >>I told Ken H, there is father, mother, noble ones and Buddha etc. Also are we >>talking about sotapanna right now or wordlings. It is impossible for sotapanna > >>to do such thing precisely becuse he knows there is noble ones, father and >>mother and Buddha and also he would not change teacher to another sectarian. >.... >S: A sotapanna would not do such things precisely because he knows there are no >beings in reality and he fully understands kamma and other conditions. You keep >referring to the quote about father, mother and so on, misunderstanding that the > >text was referring to those who believed there were no results of kamma. This is > >what I wrote before about the passage referring to those who believed there was >no father, mother with regard to fruit of good kamma etc: > >>S: This is the serious wrong view of annihilation and this passage is >repeated in many suttas. > >In MN 41, Nanamoli/Bodhi give the following summary explanation to the >same quote in note 425: > >"This is a morally nihilistic materialist view that denies an afterlife >and kammic retribution. "There is nothing given" means that there is no >fruit of giving; "no this world, no other world" that there is no rebirth >into either this world or a world beyond; "no mother, no father" that >there is no fruit of good conduct and bad conduct towards mother and >father. The statement about recluses and brahmins denies the existence of >Buddhas and arahants." > >A lot more is said about this under "The Doctrine of Ajita Kesakambala" in >the Saamma~n~naphala Sutta and its commentary. For example, in B.Bodhi's >translation of these (BPS wheel), it says: > >"Cy. By denying kamma one denies its result [because there is no result >when there is no kamma]. By denying the result one denies kamma [because >when there is no result, kamma becomes inefficacious]. Thus all these >thinkers [S: inc. Ajita], by denying both (kamma and its results), in >effect espouse acausalims (ahetukavaada), the inefficacy of action >(akiriyavaada), and moreal nihilism (natthikavaada)." > >Also more on this quote in these two messages. The second one is Nina's from the >Sangiiti Corner. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/84298 >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/89956< KO: Sure this is about efficiacy of kamma, about eternal and annihilistic point of view. The text does not say that the kamma and views itself make it unnecessary to known there is no father and mother. In fact, the text explain the meaning and holds the meaning there is father and mother. There is no contradiction why there is a father and mother view and the view of nama and rupa. Just like in the statement Buddha said, those who knows him by dhamma, knows Buddha. But does not mean there is no Buddha, there is no effect in making Buddha bleed or I wonder why the disciples pay so much respect to Buddha at that time since he is just nama and rupa :-) and they clearly seen it. In the Clarifier of Sweet Meaning commentary to the Chronicles of Buddha, Buddha display his marvels of twin miracle and jewel walk to put beings on faith with Buddhism. Why bother with concept if he could just tell them it is just nama and rupa since it is all nama and rupa. Cheers >.... >>KO: If there are only namas and rupas, then there should be no father and >>mother, and no noble ones and no Buddha. Then should not be any difference in >>kamma >.... >S: There are only namas and rupas in reality (see intro to first chapter in >Abhidhammattha Sangaha). Some of these namas and rupas we refer to as "father", >"mother" and so on. On kamma, as explained. > KO: Definitely there nama and rupa, there is also father and mother Ken O #114887 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 2, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Rob E DO applied to both, because accumulation of kamma could be either a being or a nama and rupa. Commentary to Right View <> I believe I have to explain two things to you as well whether there is intentional volition in the practise. One example from the Satipatthana commentary, <> There are others like recitation of body parts or counting of breath etc On the question why some people quickly attain enlightenment pg 254 The Questions of King Malinda, PTS <> <> Ken O Ken O >>Hi Ken H. > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > >> In any case DO does not apply to sentient beings of any kind, it applies to >>only to conditioned reality. > >I think you are making a mistake here - DO does not apply to a "conditioned >reality" outside of experience, ie "sentient beings." It applies only to >"conditioned cittas," in other words to experiential dhammas. Unless you are >saying there is a dependently arisen reality outside of consciousness. Are you? >Does hardness or color occur in its own right, or only for the appropriate citta > >which accesses them through the sense doors? > >It is in that sense that Alex is saying that DO only applies to sentient beings. > >In your terms you would say, I think, that DO only applies to cittas. It is only > >within experience, that is, sentience, that DO, kamma, vipaka, kusala and >akusala take place. > >Best, >Robert E. > >= = = = = = = = = = > > #114888 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 2, 2011 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >These sound like interesting possible factors. I don't understand well enough >how these all come into play, or how they relate to what I understand to be the >formula of "kamma = intention or volition." I think my understanding is that >kamma is cetana. Is that correct in your view Kamma has a few meanings in the commentary: as a co-ordinating factor, as accumulating, as actions. I believe you know that there are bodily, speech and mental actions. I would not use intention as intention is mostly mental actions. Some translatores use intention as right thought (vitakka). Actions or volitions are the preferred translation. There could ill intentions but does not mean it cause the bodily action of killing. There could be egoistic intention which could cause bodily action of killing. Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 183 and 184 Summary of the Topics (61) However, by way of the arising of consciousness, unwholesome kamma is all together of twelve kinds. (62) Wholesome sense-sphere kamma is also threefold by way of the doors of kamma, kamma of the body which occurs though the door of body, kamma of speech which occurs through the door of speech, and kamma or mind which occurs though the door of the mind (63) It is likewise [threefold] by way of generosity, virtue and cultivation Commentary (63) Thinking that this [sense-sphere wholesome kamma] which arises by way of three kinds of kamma in respect of six objects invariably arises in three ways, he states, it is likewise threefold by way of generosity, virtue and cultivation Summary of the topics (64) But by way of the arising of consciousness it is of eight kinds (65) Andy by way of generosity, virtue, cultivation, paying respect, service, giving of good fortune, rejocing in others' good fortune, heaing the Dhamma, teaching the Dhamma, straightening one's view, it is of ten kinds (66) In this way these twenty types make up of kamma belonging to the sense sphere This commentary is very long and I have no time right now, just like to point out this, another day I will type it all out. Commentary <> Ken O #114889 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 2, 2011 3:23 pm Subject: Feeding Tranquillity! bhikkhu5 Friends: Feeding the Tranquillity Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding and cannot survive without food, exactly & even so are these 7 Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot survive without feeding... And what, Bhikkhus, is the feeding the emergence of any yet unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening & also feeding of already arisen & present Tranquillity? Just this very notion: There are 2 kinds of Calm: There is Tranquillity of the Body (kya-passaddhi) and there is Tranquillity of the Mind (citta-passaddhi)! Frequently giving careful & rational attention to them both, is feeding the arising of any unarisen tranquillity and indeed also feeding of the gradual fulfillment of any already arisen tranquillity... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs all emergence of any yet unarisen tranquillity and which also hinders any already arisen tranquillity in reaching fulfillment by development? There are these 2 kinds of composed calm, which should be differentiated: Tranquillity of the Body and Tranquillity of the Mind! Not giving frequent careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much & often; is the starving that prevents an unarisen tranquillity from arising and also blocks any already arisen tranquillity from reaching complete fulfillment by mental training and progressive development by meditation... Comments from the classical commentaries: Peace is the characteristic of the Tranquillity Link to Awakening (Passaddhi-sambojjhanga). Stilling of all bodily activity, feeling, perception, mental construction and consciousness is the purpose of tranquillity. Settled, serene and solidified calm (samatha) is the excessively pleasant manifestation of tranquillity. A smiling mountain! When the mirror moves & vibrates, then one cannot see anything clearly in it. So also with the mind: When stressed and agitated, then mind cannot figure out what is good and what is bad on the long term. But when imperturbably stilled, then mind can cut right through any distraction and attain absolute certainty and understanding both spontaneously and instantaneously... Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the Tranquillity are: 1: Eating good and fine food... 2: Living in a pleasant climate... 3: Maintaining a comfortable posture without pain or distress... 4: Staying evenly ballanced in all situations and regarding all aspects... 5: Avoidance of restless, anxious, agitated, worried and stressed people... 6: Friendship with bodily and mentally calm people, who meditates much! 7: Commitment to calm down the mind by cultivating quiet and tranquillity! There is Tranquillity of the Body and there is Tranquillity of the Mind! These mutually depend upon and enhance each other into deeper calmness. <....> Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <.....> #114890 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 3, 2011 2:31 am Subject: anusaya revisited nilovg Dear Han, I have to check over the whole anusaya study before sending it to Thailand. The first part I did long ago and you were not yet here on the list. This first part is very difficult. Pali anuseti+ ablative is difficult to translate into English. Yamaka commentary: nanu cesa aaramma.navasena anusayamaano na kevala.m imaasu dviisu vedanaasu ceva vedanaasampayuttadhammesu ca anuseti, i.t.thesu pana ruupaadiisupi anusetiyeva. "Surely, the latent tendency of sense desire that adheres to an object, does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible object that is desirable, and so on." Anuseti: lies dormant, but then is added an object or a feeling in the ablative. I compared different translations and found: adheres to, or: inheres in. ------ In the sixth Book of the "Abhidhamma", the 'Yamaka", in the section on the definition (translated in "Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka, by Ven. Nyanatiloka), the objects and foundations of the latent tendencies are definied: (1)"Where does the Bias of Sensuous Craving adhere?- To the two feelings (pleasant and indifferent) of the Sensuous sphere. ------ In The Sammohavinodanii: Ch 16, 2286: Ettha sattaana.m raagaanusayo anuseti (here inheres the beings' inherent tendency to greed): in that desirable object beings' inherent tendency to greed in the sense of its being unabandoned inheres.... ------ Thus, anuseti can also be translated as: inhere in. I thought about it for a long time and could not find a good translation in English. What do you think? -------- Nina. #114891 From: "selamat rodjali" Date: Tue May 3, 2011 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anusaya revisited nana_palo Dear Nina, If you don't mind, kindly please inform us where can I buy an English translation of Yamaka? Greatly appreciate. Kind regards, Selamat rodjali From Dhamma Study Group Bogor - Indonesia Powered by Happiness Energy -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom Sender: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 11:31:38 To: Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] anusaya revisited Dear Han, I have to check over the whole anusaya study before sending it to Thailand. <....> #114892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2011 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] anusaya revisited nilovg Dear Selamat, Op 3-mei-2011, om 11:39 heeft selamat rodjali het volgende geschreven: > If you don't mind, kindly please inform us where can I buy an > English translation of Yamaka? ------ N: There is no translation into English of the Yamaka. But you can find some passages of it in the "Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka" by Ven. Nyanatiloka (BPS Kandy). He gives a Survey of all the Abhidhamma books and this is under Yamaka VII: Anusaya Yamaka. Appreciating your interest, Nina. #114893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2011 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 2-mei-2011, om 6:09 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Can you explain again how tendencies "lie dormant" in a citta, and > are carried by that citta? I am having a hard time imagining how > that is possible in a momentary act of consciousness. ------ N:Instead of carried, can we use the word passed on? This is also figurative. Each citta is succeeded by the next one and that is why. I understand you having a hard time, because it is hard to imagine how it all works. ------ Nina. #114894 From: "connie" Date: Wed May 4, 2011 2:09 am Subject: Sangiitisutta 7.14 nichiconn dear friends, CSCD < Date: Wed May 4, 2011 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 2-mei-2011, om 6:09 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Can you explain again how tendencies "lie dormant" in a citta, and > > are carried by that citta? I am having a hard time imagining how > > that is possible in a momentary act of consciousness. > ------ > N:Instead of carried, can we use the word passed on? This is also > figurative. Each citta is succeeded by the next one and that is why. > I understand you having a hard time, because it is hard to imagine > how it all works. Yes, it is hard to understand or imagine, given the nature of cittas. When a tendency is passed on in ordinary life, there is some mechanism such as a genetic code that is passed along through some concrete substance, like the genes. If a memory lies dormant in ordinary life and we suddenly remember it from some stimulus and it arise, it takes place in the brain, and we understand that there is an area where such information is stored. Similarly with other tendencies, there is always some explanation why we don't see them for a while and then they may arise later when conditions come together to bring them up. So if there are tendencies lying dormant in a citta, or as you say, passed on, that is fine if they are dormant and passed on, but if a citta has no substance or place where they can lie or exist when they are not active, then it is hard to imagine how they continue to exist when they are not active. Citta is just a momentary act of awareness that is performing some function in relation to an object, so it has no place to keep a tendency. If a citta arises with many cetasikas, I can sort of imagine that these are all functional parts of what it is doing at that moment, but to pass on a tendency that is not doing anything but at the same time cannot exist without having a 'place to live' is difficult to imagine. I can sort of see the tendency arising in citta A and then being handed off to citta B when citta A is dying down, as I guess happens with panna and other qualities, but something that is a tendency that is just waiting to pop up - not sure how that works. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114896 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 4, 2011 7:52 am Subject: Concentration = Samãdhi! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Concentration Link to Awakening? Fixed Focus is the characteristic of the Concentration Link to Awakening (Samādhi-Sambojjhanga). Ceasing of distraction, disturbance, diversion, agitation, mental instability and wavering is the purpose of the quality of Concentration (Samādhi). Incisive certainty is the manifestation of the concentration link to awakening. This stability enables breakthrough to understanding! Some concentration is present in all consciousness. Training that anchors attention on only 1 object condenses this focus. The proximate cause of concentration is happiness! The resulting effect of concentration is knowledge and vision! Concentration comes in increasing grades of intensity: 1: Momentary concentration with few seconds of one-pointedness. 2: Preparatory concentration of longer, yet still unstable quality. 3: Access concentration which approaches the 1st jhāna absorption. 4: Absorption concentration with fixed and unified mental one-pointedness. Fourfold is the blessing of Concentration: 1: Sublime happiness here and now through the 4 absorptions. 2: Assured knowledge and true vision of things as they really are. 3: Awareness and clear comprehension of all transient phenomena. 4: Ceasing of all mental fermentation by absence of clinging. DN 33 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (āsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful and rational attention develops the Concentration Link to Awakening based on seclusion, based on disillusion, based on ceasing, culminating in renouncing relinquishment, then neither can mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor any discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one whose body is calm and who enjoys a pleasurable happiness the mind becomes concentrated. The Concentration Link to Awakening arises right there. He develops it, and for him repeatedly meditating it goes gradually to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <....> #114897 From: "selamat rodjali" Date: Wed May 4, 2011 9:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] anusaya revisited nana_palo Dear Nina. Thank you. Kind regards, Selamat Powered by Happiness Energy -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom Sender: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 16:19:06 To: Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] anusaya revisited Dear Selamat, Op 3-mei-2011, om 11:39 heeft selamat rodjali het volgende geschreven: > If you don't mind, kindly please inform us where can I buy an > English translation of Yamaka? ------ N: There is no translation into English of the Yamaka. But you can find some passages of it in the "Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka" by Ven. Nyanatiloka (BPS Kandy). He gives a Survey of all the Abhidhamma books and this is under Yamaka VII: Anusaya Yamaka. Appreciating your interest, Nina. #114898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2011 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 3-mei-2011, om 20:57 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > If a citta arises with many cetasikas, I can sort of imagine that > these are all functional parts of what it is doing at that moment, > but to pass on a tendency that is not doing anything but at the > same time cannot exist without having a 'place to live' is > difficult to imagine. I can sort of see the tendency arising in > citta A and then being handed off to citta B when citta A is dying > down, as I guess happens with panna and other qualities, but > something that is a tendency that is just waiting to pop up - not > sure how that works. -------- N: Again, a latent tendency is not something static. I quote: < When there are still latent tendencies there are conditions for the arising of pariyutthna defilements (medium defilements arising with the akusala citta) and these must be accompanied by feeling and other conascent dhammas. There must also be an object that is appropriate for that kind of pariyutthna defilement, and when that defilement attaches weight to that object, it is strong. When it has fallen away, it conditions the accumulation of that kind of defilement to go on as latent tendency. > ------- This happens time and again, also now. Seeing and then shortly afterwards liking what is seen, and this sense desire falls away, and thus the latent tendency of desire goes on from citta to citta, it follows the succession of cittas so long as it has not been abandoned. The latent tendency of, for example, sense desire conditions the arising of sense desire now with akusala citta when the time is appropriate. ------- Quote: Seven defilements are called latent tendencies because they have not been abandoned. So long as they have not been eradicated there are conditions for them to cause the arising of akusala cittas. A latent tendency is not something that lasts, it is dormant in citta (like a microbe), in citta that arises and falls away. -------- R: If a memory lies dormant in ordinary life and we suddenly remember it from some stimulus and it arise, it takes place in the brain, and we understand that there is an area where such information is stored. -------- N: I understand what you want to say. When we suddenly remember something, how does that happen? We cannot trace the conditions for remembering specific things, but there are conditions why this is remembered and not that. Feeling also plays an important part. When feeling strongly about something it is a condition to remember a certain object. But this is rather speaking about situations, in conventional sense. It is more precise to consider sa~n~naa arising with each citta. There is memory at each moment, with each citta. Even when we do not remember what we wish to remember there is still sa~n~naa remembering an object. The brain is ruupa and naama cannot be stored in it. The word 'stored' suggests something lasting. Nothing can be stored. We cannot speculate about how memory exactly works, we cannot know everything. Why should we find out? It is best to develop understanding of the present reality because that is something that can gradually be known more clearly. Nina. #114899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2011 4:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 7.14 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, The Sevens, sutta 14. Walshe DN. 33.2.3(14) 'Seven rules for the pacification and settlement of disputed questions that have been raised: (a) proceedings face-to- face, (b) recollection (sati), (c) mental derangement, (d) confession, (e) majority verdict, (f) habitual bad character, (g) "covering over with grass". (Satta adhikara.nasamathaa - uppannuppannaana.m adhikara.naana.m samathaaya vuupasamaaya sammukhaavinayo daatabbo, sativinayo daatabbo, amuu.lhavinayo daatabbo, pa.ti~n~naaya kaaretabba.m, yebhuyyasikaa, tassapaapiyasikaa, ti.navatthaarako.) ----------- N: Adhikara.na is a legal process. The commentary mentions that there are four categories: contention as to the Dhamma Vinaya, vivaadaadhikara.na, the accusation of an offence (aapatti), anuvaadaadhikara.na, the manner of falling into an offence, aapattaadhikara.na, the duty to be undertaken by the Sangha, kiccaadhikara.na. The commentary and subcommentary elaborate on these points and a summary of these can be found in "The Entrance to the Vinaya", Ch IX, by Ven. Krom-Vajira~naa.navarorasa, Mahaa Makuta Academy, Bangkok. The seven rules are set up in accordance with the above-mentioned four categories. As to proceedings face-to-face, the legal matters have to be settled in the presence of the Order, of an individual, in the presence of the subject-matter (vatthu) which is raised for judgement. In the presence of Dhamma-Vinaya, namely, the judgement must be in accordance of the truth of the Dhamma-Vinaya. As to sativinaya, this regards persons who are mindful in their behaviour. An arahat who is perfectly mindful may still transgress a rule without realizing this. As to the proceedings for the mentally deranged (amuu.lhavinaya), someone who is insane may have transgressed training rules. A verdict of past insanity may be given. As to proceedings for the person who confessed what he had done (pa.ti~n~naata kara.na), there is rehabilitation after admission of his fault. This will help for restraint in the future. As to majority verdict (yebhuyyasikaa), this is a judgement according to the words of the majority. As to proceedings for one with habitual bad character (tassapaapiyasikaa), this is giving a penalty for the obstinately wrong. As to the covering over with grass (ti.navatthaarako), that is reconciling both parties, settling an issue without proceeding to investigate the dispute. ---------- From the Vinaya appears the Buddha's great compassion. He set rules so that the community of the monks could live in harmony and peace. There are exceptions allowed, such as when someone is mentally deranged, when he is mad, in pain or a beginner. These exceptions also show the Buddha's great compassion. ******* Nina. #114900 From: han tun Date: Wed May 4, 2011 7:17 pm Subject: Re: anusaya revisited hantun1 Dear Nina, I was away from Bangkok for three days. I just arrive back. When I read your post, I found that the translation of "anuseti" could be three things: (1) lies dormant (the standard translation), (2) adheres to (and also conascent with), (3) inherent in. I do not know Pali grammar, but according to the Burmese books, I would go for the first one, i.e., lies dormant. Why? In the following statement, "Surely, the latent tendency of sense desire that adheres to an object, does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible object that is desirable, and so on." in Burmese translation, instead of [*adhere* to these two feelings] it is translated as [taking these two feelings as *objects*.] So the word *adhere* may not be so appropriate. ---------- In the last one, I think the word *inherent* is also too strong. It may not be possible to eradicate if it is *inherent*. ---------- So I think "lies dormant" is the most appropriate word. However, if I have to choose between the two words of "adhere to" and "inherent in", I would go for "adhere to" or introduce yet another word "taking as object". But still, I prefer the simpler one, "lies dormant". These are just my thoughts. Respectfully, Han #114901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2011 7:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusaya revisited nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for taking the trouble. Op 4-mei-2011, om 11:17 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When I read your post, I found that the translation of "anuseti" > could be three things: > (1) lies dormant (the standard translation), > (2) adheres to (and also conascent with), > (3) inherent in. > > I do not know Pali grammar, but according to the Burmese books, I > would go for the first one, i.e., lies dormant. > > Why? > > In the following statement, > "Surely, the latent tendency of sense desire that adheres to an > object, does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the > dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible > object that is desirable, and so on." > > in Burmese translation, instead of [*adhere* to these two feelings] > it is translated as [taking these two feelings as *objects*.] So > the word *adhere* may not be so appropriate. ------- N: anuseti is followed by an ablative: anuseti in what? Lies dormant in what seems strange. The latent tendency itself is latent and does not arise and experience an object. It is a basis for the arising of akusala citta conditioned by it. > > > ---------- > > H:In the last one, I think the word *inherent* is also too strong. > It may not be possible to eradicate if it is *inherent*. > > ---------- N: But lokuttara magga-citta is very powerful. -------- > > > H:So I think "lies dormant" is the most appropriate word. > > However, if I have to choose between the two words of "adhere to" > and "inherent in", I would go for "adhere to" or introduce yet > another word "taking as object". > > But still, I prefer the simpler one, "lies dormant". -------- N: I have to think it over. Thank you, Nina. #114902 From: han tun Date: Wed May 4, 2011 11:15 pm Subject: Re: anusaya revisited hantun1 Dear Nina, [Nina]: anuseti is followed by an ablative: anuseti in what? Lies dormant in what seems strange. The latent tendency itself is latent and does not arise and experience an object. It is a basis for the arising of akusala citta conditioned by it. [Han]: if an ablative in Pali grammar is asking [anuseti in what?], there are many more such questions in the Burmese commentary. (1) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in whom? In puthujjana, sotaapanna, and sakadaagaami. (2) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in not yet abandoned by what? Not yet abandoned by sotaapatti magga, and sakadaagaami magga. (3) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in where? In kaama eleven realms. (4) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in what? In taking 19 kaama-sukha vedanaa and 32 kaama-upekkhaa vedanaa as objectives, and in conascent with them. These are just for your consideration, please. Respectfully, Han #114903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2011 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusaya revisited nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much. Especially no 4 has been dealt with in the Thai study. As object or being conascent. This points to the anusaya that conditions the arising of akusala citta with kaamaraga and this takes as object sukha vedanaa or upekkhaa vedanaa or is conascent with these. Nina. Op 4-mei-2011, om 15:15 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > [Han]: if an ablative in Pali grammar is asking [anuseti in what?], > there are many more such questions in the Burmese commentary. > > (1) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in whom? In puthujjana, sotaapanna, > and sakadaagaami. > (2) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in not yet abandoned by what? Not > yet abandoned by sotaapatti magga, and sakadaagaami magga. > (3) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in where? In kaama eleven realms. > (4) [Kaamaraagaanusaya] anuseti in what? In taking 19 kaama-sukha > vedanaa and 32 kaama-upekkhaa vedanaa as objectives, and in > conascent with them. #114904 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 4:31 am Subject: mana szmicio Dear friends, Does mana(pride) compares only me, myself to others or it may compare everything without considering a Self in it? I mean when there's comparing of weather there should be development of right understanding or jhana or samatha? I know that everything can be an object of mana: royal birth, money, titles..but does mana always needs an idea of a Self in it? Best wishes Lukas #114905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2011 5:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mana nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 4-mei-2011, om 20:31 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Does mana(pride) compares only me, myself to others or it may > compare everything without considering a Self in it? I mean when > there's comparing of weather there should be development of right > understanding or jhana or samatha? > > I know that everything can be an object of mana: royal birth, > money, titles..but does mana always needs an idea of a Self in it? ------- N: Remember the Vibhanga texts about maana: it is like hoisting a flag, clinging to the importance of 'oneself'. We can find ourselves so important because of possessions, or because of development of jhaana or vipassanaa. Conceit arises with lobha-muulacitta without wrong view, there is no wrong view of self at that moment. Conceit and wrong view have different objects. The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view but still has the latent tendency of conceit. This is only eradicated at arahatship. Thus, when we cling to the importance of oneself, it means clinging to the importance of these khandhas here, we find better than those khandhas over there, but no wrong view of 'I exist'. ------ Nina. #114906 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: I understand what you want to say. When we suddenly remember > something, how does that happen? We cannot trace the conditions for > remembering specific things, but there are conditions why this is > remembered and not that. Feeling also plays an important part. When > feeling strongly about something it is a condition to remember a > certain object. But this is rather speaking about situations, in > conventional sense. > It is more precise to consider sa~n~naa arising with each citta. > There is memory at each moment, with each citta. Even when we do not > remember what we wish to remember there is still sa~n~naa remembering > an object. > The brain is ruupa and naama cannot be stored in it. I did mean this example as an analogy; I didn't mean to say that nama and rupa are stored in the brain. On the level of an analogy I am just asking how can a tendency be "latent" in a citta. I really enjoyed the quotes from commentary that you gave here, but they do not exactly explain how a citta can carry something that is "latent." The mechanism is there, but not the "storage container." Obviously there is no container in a citta, just things arising according to conditions and accompanying object and cetasikas, all in action at the moment. But then it is difficult to understand where the "latency" lives in all that action. Perhaps there is no mechanical explanation for that, it is just a given. But it worries me a bit, because without latency and accumulation there is really no experience with any reference or meaning, certainly no conceptual experience and no path. So the subject of how latency is possible in a citta-only universe is possibly an important one. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114907 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 7:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > >These sound like interesting possible factors. I don't understand well enough > >how these all come into play, or how they relate to what I understand to be the > > >formula of "kamma = intention or volition." I think my understanding is that > >kamma is cetana. Is that correct in your view > > Kamma has a few meanings in the commentary: as a co-ordinating factor, as > accumulating, as actions. I believe you know that there are bodily, speech and > mental actions. I would not use intention as intention is mostly > mental actions. Some translatores use intention as right thought (vitakka). > Actions or volitions are the preferred translation. So all three levels create kamma, both good and bad? I think the dsg view of this is that only the mental volition is the "real kamma" and that everything else is a result or repository of mental kamma of a weak or of a greater strength. > There could ill intentions but does not mean it cause the bodily action of > killing. There could be egoistic intention which could cause bodily action of > killing. So many different types of intentions or volitions which may be of various strengths, and may or may not cause actions depending on their strength or relative weakness. > Summary of the topics > (64) But by way of the arising of consciousness it is of eight kinds > (65) Andy by way of generosity, virtue, cultivation, paying respect, service, > giving of good fortune, rejocing in others' good fortune, heaing the Dhamma, > teaching the Dhamma, straightening one's view, it is of ten kinds > (66) In this way these twenty types make up of kamma belonging to the sense > sphere Clearly there are many refinements and specifications of different types of kamma, which seems to be a very complex subject. I guess it would be interesting to see all the different types of kamma laid out on a chart of some kind to show what categories they are in and how they relate to each other, and what the total categories of different kammas really are - mental, speech, action; the 8 and the 20 categories above, and whatever else there is... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114908 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 7:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > DO applied to both, because accumulation of kamma could be either a being or a > nama and rupa. > > Commentary to Right View > < object, has a formation as object. Taking what is not given has beings as object > or formations as object. Misconduct in sensual pleasures has formations as > object by way of tangible object; but some say it also has beings as object. > False speech has beings or formations as object; likewise malicious speech. > Harsh speech has only beings as object. Gossip has either beings or formations > as object by way of the seen, heard, sensed and cognized; likewise covetousness. > Ill will has only beings as object. Wrong view has formations as object by way > of the states belonging to the three planes (of being).>> So here is another distinction in kamma, whether it is created with regard to a being or dhammas. So what are the differences in this kamma, if the action or volition is directed towards a being or not? > I believe I have to explain two things to you as well whether there is > intentional volition in the practise. One example from the Satipatthana > commentary, > < senior bhikkhu called Great Elder. > It is said that Great Elder seated in his day-quarters bent his arm quickly > whilst talking to his resident pupils and then after putting back his arm to the > position in which it first was, bent it again slowly. The resident pupils > questioned him thus: "Reverend Sir, why, after bending the arm quickly, did you, > having placed it in the position in which it first was, bend it slowly?" > "Friends, until now I did not bend this arm with a mind separate from the > subject of meditation ever since I began to attend to the subject of meditation. > Therefore, having put back the arm in the place it was first in, I bent." "Good! > Reverend Sir. A bhikkhu should be one who acts thus." Here, too, it should be > understood that the non-abandoning of the subject of meditation is clear > comprehension of resort.>> That is interesting. If I understand the example correctly, he re-did the action the second time with mindfulness, because he was unconscious of what he was doing the first time? If so that is a good example of intentionally practicing mindfulness in everyday life. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114909 From: "paccayas" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 1:32 am Subject: Re: Giving my backgrounds paccayas Dear Ken H, Nina van Gorkom and Sarah, Thank for nice greeting and short introduction to the Dhamma study. I am just learning basics of it, but I will try to understand just the part of it. I really think that Buddha words can free me from my suffering. Lukas is a really good teacher, that's true :-) Sorry for a short break - I don't have broadband Internet right now. Best wishes, Adam PS. What to do to stop obessive thinking about my problems (drugs, family and studying - currently I am not studying... #114910 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Giving my backgrounds kenhowardau Hi Adam, ---- <. . .> > A: What to do to stop obessive thinking about my problems (drugs, family and studying - currently I am not studying... ---- KH: Thinking about them is not the problem. The problem is thinking about them with wrong understanding. When you have *right* understanding you can think about absolutely anything, and nothing will spoil your equanimity. It's just a matter of understanding the present reality. Here and now (WHATEVER THE CIRCUMSTANCES) there are only conditioned dhammas, and they are all anicca, dukkha and anatta (no self). So what difference does it make if things are going wrong and you are stuck with stories about drugs, family disputes, and failed exams? No difference at all. The present reality is the same as when everything is going beautifully. Ken H #114911 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 12:13 pm Subject: Feeding Concentration! bhikkhu5 Friends: Feeding the Concentration Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding & cannot survive without food, so are the 7 Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot remain without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen concentration link to awakening and also feeding of the completion by condensation of any arisen concentration link to awakening? There are two signs: The sign of calm, serenity & silence and the sign of non-distraction and non-scatter! Frequently giving careful and rational attention to them, is feeding arising of any yet unarisen concentration link to awakening & also feeding of the gradual fulfillment of any already arisen concentration link to awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs all emergence of a yet unarisen concentration link to awakening & which also hinders any already arisen Concentration Link from reaching fulfillment by development? The sign of calm serene silence & the sign of non-distraction & non-scatter! Not giving frequent, careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much and often; is the starving that prevents an unarisen concentration link to awakening from arising & also blocks any already arisen concentration link to awakening from reaching any complete fulfillment by mental training and progressive development by meditation... Comments from the classical commentaries: Focus is the characteristic of the concentration link to awakening (Samdhi-Sambojjhanga). Ceasing of all distraction, disturbance, diversion, agitation, mental instability and wavering is the purpose of the quality of Concentration (Samdhi). Penetration is the manifestation of concentration. This stability produces breakthrough to understanding! Some Concentration is present in all consciousness. This focus can be trained by fixing attention. Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the concentration are: 1: Keeping own body, behaviour, belongings and surroundings fully clean... 2: Routine in recognizing the sign of calm and the sign of non-distraction... 3: Ballancing the abilities of energetic striving vs. concentration evenly... 4: Controlling, confining and restraining the mind, whenever necessary... 5: Pushing, prodding and exerting the mind, whenever needed... 6: Gladdening, encouraging and easing the mind, whenever suitable... 7: Looking on, just overseeing the mind in equanimity, when appropriate... 8: Avoiding unconcentrated, agitated, diffuse and scatter-minded people... 9: Friendship with concentrated people with experience in absorption... 10: Frequent reviewing of the absorptions (jhnas ) and the liberations... 11: Commitment to focus mind into one-pointed absorbed concentration! There is concentration while thinking and concentration without thinking! Mental absorption (Jhna) is the higher being's exquisite state! <....> Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2011 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Giving my backgrounds nilovg Dear Adam, I am glad you find Lukas a good teacher. And Jacob wrote such a lovely letter to you about good friendship. Op 4-mei-2011, om 17:32 heeft paccayas het volgende geschreven: > What to do to stop obessive thinking about my problems (drugs, > family and studying - currently I am not studying... -------- N: There isn't anybody that can stop thinking or any experience. Thinking is a mental phenomenon arising because of its own conditions, it arises already before one realizes it. All that can be done: just understanding it as a conditioned mental phenomenon that does not belong to you. The more you try to stop thinking, the worse it will become and it will make you tense. Just keep on listening to the Dhamma Lukas explains to you, and this in itself is a condition for more understanding of all experiences, pleasant or unpleasant. ------ Nina. #114913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2011 5:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma. was: Why a sotapanna .. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-mei-2011, om 23:31 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I guess it would be interesting to see all the different types of > kamma laid out on a chart of some kind to show what categories they > are in ------ N: Best is to understand the present moment, also when doing different actions through body and speech. That is the way to understand kamma, not the different charts. Nina. #114914 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2011 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati. Was: part 1 to Ken O nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-mei-2011, om 23:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > "Friends, until now I did not bend this arm with a mind separate > from the > > subject of meditation ever since I began to attend to the subject > of meditation. > > Therefore, having put back the arm in the place it was first in, > I bent." "Good! > > Reverend Sir. A bhikkhu should be one who acts thus." Here, too, > it should be > > understood that the non-abandoning of the subject of meditation > is clear > > comprehension of resort.>> > > That is interesting. If I understand the example correctly, he re- > did the action the second time with mindfulness, because he was > unconscious of what he was doing the first time? If so that is a > good example of intentionally practicing mindfulness in everyday life. -------- N: He did it all according to his accumulations. As to 'intentionally practicing mindfulness in everyday life'. Before one realizes it, there may be an idea of self who wants to 'do' something. But mindfulness is anattaa as you also have understood very well. Certainly, cetanaa arises with each citta, but people tend to take it for mine. So, when reading such texts as the above quoted one, there may be wrong understanding. Most important is considering: what is to be known now? No matter we bend arms slowly or rapidly. Which reality appears through which doorway? Is its characteristic realized as just a condiitoned dhamma? It helps to emphasize pa~n~naa. What exactly is known or understood now? Having many moments of sati is useless if the present reality is not understood. See the text: 'clear comprehesion of resort': clear comprehension of the object of mindfulness, be it naama or ruupa. That is the goal. Nina. #114915 From: "Christine" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 6:03 pm Subject: Jtaka Tales Online christine_fo... Hello all, Not sure if this has been posted before: Jtaka Tales Online http://onlinedharma.blogspot.com/2007/06/jtaka-tales-online.html with metta Chris #114916 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu May 5, 2011 6:16 pm Subject: Re: Giving my backgrounds szmicio Dear Nina > > What to do to stop obessive thinking about my problems (drugs, > > family and studying - currently I am not studying... > -------- > N: There isn't anybody that can stop thinking or any experience. > Thinking is a mental phenomenon arising because of its own > conditions, it arises already before one realizes it. All that can be > done: just understanding it as a conditioned mental phenomenon that > does not belong to you. > The more you try to stop thinking, the worse it will become and it > will make you tense. > Just keep on listening to the Dhamma Lukas explains to you, and this > in itself is a condition for more understanding of all experiences, > pleasant or unpleasant. L: This is helpful. But I am still feeling like I need to call some of our Dhamma friends here. Live Dhamma that's I had never had. Best wishes Lukas #114917 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 6, 2011 11:42 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113817) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > =============== > > > Here's the relevant passage from the Vis: > > > > > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... > > > > > > Clearly a technique that is being given to develop concentration, with a beginning and advanced stage once one progresses and gets used to the early "slow" technique. > > > =============== > > > > J: Sorry, but I'll have to leave the rest of my reply on this point until I get hold of a copy of the text. > > Well I did give you an extensive quote to look at, but be that as it may, I will wait until you are able to look over the entire Vis. :-) > =============== J: OK, have just had a chance to check my copy of Vism. Some background to the passage quoted in your message, which is from The Path of Purification Ch. VIII/190/192. The section on Samadhi/Concentration (Part II) begins at Ch. III. At Ch. III/5 it is explained that samadhi can be classified as mundane and supramundane samadhi. Mundane concentration is "profitable [J: i.e., kusala] unification of mind in the three planes", while supramundane samadhi is "the unification associated with the noble paths". This distinction is further explained at Ch. III/27 where it says: "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane' [J: i.e., supramundane concentration], is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." So the first point is that the whole of Part II deals with mundane samadhi, i.e., samadhi that is kusala but that is not part of the path. The second point is that there are certain prerequisites to the development of mundane samadhi of the level of which the Vism is speaking. These are stated in brief as follows (Ch. III/28): a/ the person should have 'taken his stand' on virtue that is quite purified in the way stated in Part I of the text; b/ he should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have (the 10 impediments are: a dwelling, family, gain, a class, building, travel, kin, affliction, books, supernormal powers); c/ he should approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament; d/ after that he should avoid a monastery unfavourable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable; e/ he should sever the lesser impediments; f/ he should not overlook any of the directions for development. The passage mentioning counting of breaths falls within the 'directions for development' at item (f) in the list of prerequisites (these begin at Ch. IV/21) So the 'beginner of good birth' is a person who has already satisfied the requirements at items (a) to (e) in the list. That means he/she must be a person of already well developed samatha. Hoping this helps to explain my earlier comments about 'relative beginner'. Jon #114918 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 6, 2011 9:32 am Subject: Equanimity = Upekkhaa! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Equanimity link to Awakening? Even evaluation is a characteristic of the equanimity link to awakening. (Upekkh-Sambojjhanga). Preventing both deficiency and excess thereby securing impartiality is the function of equanimity. Imperturbable ballance is the serene and placid manifestation of the equanimity link to awakening. Equanimity just looks on in calm, whenever new phenomena arise and cease. This stable, yet plastic patience purifies all the other advantageous mental states, which reach a completed maximum, when joined with Equanimity... Equanimity (Upekkh) is a moderating mental construction. Equanimity is also a mood of neither gladness, nor sadness. Equanimity is also a feeling of neither pain, nor pleasure. Equanimity is also the neutral ability to be indifferent. Equanimity is also the 4th infinitely divine dwelling. Equanimity is also a quite high form of happiness. Equanimity is also a refined mental purification. Equanimity is therefore a Link to Enlightenment... There is Equanimity both regarding live beings, and dead things. There is Equanimity both regarding all internal, and external states. There is Equanimity both regarding all past, present, and future times. There is Equanimity both regarding all mentality, and all materiality. The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (sava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by alert and rational attention develops the equanimity link to awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, and ceasing, culminating in full renouncing relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor can any fever or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] When mind is concentrated, then one can observe all closely in equanimity. The equanimity link to awakening arises right there. One develops it, & for anyone regularly meditating, equanimity gradually completes its evolution. MN118 [iii 85] <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114919 From: han tun Date: Fri May 6, 2011 3:46 pm Subject: Re: anusaya revisited hantun1 Dear Nina, Please forgive me for giving my comments without knowing the Pali Grammar. I have now found out the meaning of Ablative case from: A Practical Grammar of the Paali Language by Charles Duroiselle Third Edition 1997 6. The Ablative 600. i. The primary meaning of the Ablative is that expressed by the word "from"; that is, it expresses separation; it expresses also many other relations, in which the principal idea of separation is more or less discernible. ii. Separation: * gaamaa apenti, they left the village * so assaa patati, he fell from the horse iii. Direction from: * aviicito upari, above the Avici Hell * uddha.m padatala, (from) above the sole of the foot iv. The place "wherein" an action is performed is put in the Ablative; in such cases a gerund is sometimes understood according to native grammarians, but the student will remark that these expressions have their exact parallel in English: paasaadaa oloketi, he looks from the palace, is said to be equivalent to: paasaada.m abhiruhitvaa paasaadaa oloketi, having ascended the palace he looks from the palace. v. Measure of length, breadth or distance is put in the Ablative: * diighaso navavidatthiyo, nine spans long * yojana.m aayaamato, a league in length * yojana.m vittharato, a league in breadth Remark. In these examples the Instrumental may also be used: yojana.m aayaamena, yojana.m vitthaarena. vi. That from which a person or animal is warded or kept off is put in the Ablative: * yavehi gaavo rakkhati, he keeps off the cows from the barley * ta.n.dulaa kaake vaareti, he wards off the crows from the rice vii. With verbs meaning to hide, conceal, "the person from whom one wishes to hide" is in the Ablative: upajjhaaya antaradhaayati sisso, the pupil hides himself from his preceptor. Remark. In such expressions, the Genitive may also be used: antaradhaayissaami sama.nassa gotamasssa, I will hide myself from the samana Gotama. viii. When the verb "antaradhaayati" means, to vanish, to disappear, the place from which one vanishes is put in the Locative: jetavane antaradhaayitvaa, having disappeared from the Jetavana Monastery. ix. But when "natural phenomena" are referred to, the Nominative is used: andhakaaro antaradhaayati, darkness disappears. x. Verbs meaning "to abstain, to avoid, to release, to fear, to abhor", also govern the Ablative: * paapadhammmato viramati, he refrains from sin * so parimuccati jaatiyaa, he is released from existence * corehi bhaayaami, I am afraid of thieves xi. The Ablative also shows "motive, cause, reason" and can be translated by for, on account of, by reason of, through, etc.: * vaacaaya marati, he died on account of his speech * siilato na.m pasa.msanti, they praise him for his virtue Remark. In these examples, the Instrumental may be used as well: siilena pasa.msanti. xii. It is used with words showing proximity: gaamaa samiipa.m, near the village. Remark. In these examples, the Genitive may also be used. xiii. Verbs meaning "to be born, to originate from" etc. govern the Ablative: coraa jaayati bhaya.m, from a thief fear arises. xiv. The following indeclinables govern the Ablative: * araka, far from, afar: aarakaa tehi bhagavaa, far from them is the Blessed One * upari, above, over: upari pabbataa, over the mountain * pati, against, instead, in return; rite, except, without; a~n~natra, vinaa, without, except; naanaa, different, away from; puthu and, before a vowel, puthag, separately, without, except; aa, till, as far as; yava, till, as far as; saha, with: * buddhasmaa pati saariputto, Sariputta takes the place of the Buddha * rite saddhamma, without the true Doctrine xv. It should be noted that the Ablative is very frequently used, instead of the Instrumental, Accusative, the Genitive and the Locative, e.g. vinaasaddhammaa, or vinaa saddhamma.m, or vinaa saddhammena. -------------------- Han: Thus the ablative is a very wide subject, and I am sure you are the only person to be able to come up with the ablative case of "anuseti." Respectfully, Han #114920 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri May 6, 2011 4:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati. Was: part 1 to Ken O epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ...It helps to emphasize pa~n~naa. What exactly is > known or understood now? Having many moments of sati is useless if > the present reality is not understood. > See the text: 'clear comprehesion of resort': clear comprehension of > the object of mindfulness, be it naama or ruupa. That is the goal. Thanks, Nina. It is always good to go back to the present moment and what is experienced. Is "clear comprehension" in this case Sati Sampajanna? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114921 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri May 6, 2011 4:07 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113817) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > > =============== > > > > Here's the relevant passage from the Vis: > > > > > > > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... > > > > > > > > Clearly a technique that is being given to develop concentration, with a beginning and advanced stage once one progresses and gets used to the early "slow" technique. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Sorry, but I'll have to leave the rest of my reply on this point until I get hold of a copy of the text. > > > > Well I did give you an extensive quote to look at, but be that as it may, I will wait until you are able to look over the entire Vis. :-) > > =============== > > J: OK, have just had a chance to check my copy of Vism. > > Some background to the passage quoted in your message, which is from The Path of Purification Ch. VIII/190/192. > > The section on Samadhi/Concentration (Part II) begins at Ch. III. > > At Ch. III/5 it is explained that samadhi can be classified as mundane and supramundane samadhi. Mundane concentration is "profitable [J: i.e., kusala] unification of mind in the three planes", while supramundane samadhi is "the unification associated with the noble paths". > > This distinction is further explained at Ch. III/27 where it says: > "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane' [J: i.e., supramundane concentration], is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." > > So the first point is that the whole of Part II deals with mundane samadhi, i.e., samadhi that is kusala but that is not part of the path. Why would you say that the mundane path is not part of the path? Aren't the mundane and noble path two levels or aspects of the path? Why is it taught if it is not part of the path? > The second point is that there are certain prerequisites to the development of mundane samadhi of the level of which the Vism is speaking. These are stated in brief as follows (Ch. III/28): > > a/ the person should have 'taken his stand' on virtue that is quite > purified in the way stated in Part I of the text; > b/ he should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have (the 10 impediments are: a dwelling, family, gain, a class, building, travel, kin, affliction, books, supernormal powers); Yes, letting go of the supernormal powers has always been a challenge for me. The other items are not so difficult. :-) > c/ he should approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament; > d/ after that he should avoid a monastery unfavourable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable; > e/ he should sever the lesser impediments; > f/ he should not overlook any of the directions for development. > > The passage mentioning counting of breaths falls within the 'directions for development' at item (f) in the list of prerequisites (these begin at Ch. IV/21) > > So the 'beginner of good birth' is a person who has already satisfied the requirements at items (a) to (e) in the list. That means he/she must be a person of already well developed samatha. > > Hoping this helps to explain my earlier comments about 'relative beginner'. Yes, if one is to take that list of prerequisites as an absolute standard that is quite overwhelming. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114922 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 6, 2011 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusaya revisited nilovg Dear Han, Op 6-mei-2011, om 7:46 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Thus the ablative is a very wide subject, and I am sure you > are the only person to be able to come up with the ablative case of > "anuseti." ------- N: Yes, in Warder Grammar which I use there are similar examples. Thank you. I am inclined now to use inhere in, being inherent in. But so long as the meaning is explained we can use several translations, such as adhere to, although this seems far off from anuseti, being dormant. Adhere to is nearer to: taking an object, like one of your Burmese translations. ------- Nina. #114923 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2011 6:36 pm Subject: delayed replies sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Apologies for delays in replies... Jon and I are flying back to Hong Kong tomorrow, so I look forward to catching up next week when I should have a little more time! Meanwhile we're appreciating reading all the discussions. Metta Sarah ====== #114924 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri May 6, 2011 11:53 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. A bit more on the mundane path. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E > > > > (113817) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Jon. > > > ... > > > > > =============== > > > > > Here's the relevant passage from the Vis: > > > > > > > > > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... > > > > > > > > > > Clearly a technique that is being given to develop concentration, with a beginning and advanced stage once one progresses and gets used to the early "slow" technique. > > > > > =============== > > > > > > > > J: Sorry, but I'll have to leave the rest of my reply on this point until I get hold of a copy of the text. > > > > > > Well I did give you an extensive quote to look at, but be that as it may, I will wait until you are able to look over the entire Vis. :-) > > > =============== > > > > J: OK, have just had a chance to check my copy of Vism. > > > > Some background to the passage quoted in your message, which is from The Path of Purification Ch. VIII/190/192. > > > > The section on Samadhi/Concentration (Part II) begins at Ch. III. > > > > At Ch. III/5 it is explained that samadhi can be classified as mundane and supramundane samadhi. Mundane concentration is "profitable [J: i.e., kusala] unification of mind in the three planes", while supramundane samadhi is "the unification associated with the noble paths". > > > > This distinction is further explained at Ch. III/27 where it says: > > "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane' [J: i.e., supramundane concentration], Note that both mundane and supramundane path are referred to as "noble paths" here, denoting that they are both aspects of the legitimate path. Though mundane concentration will not directly yield supramundane concentration, the ultimate goal, they are both included as part of the continuum of the path. It is of course mundane concentration, etc., that worldlings are capable of developing prior to the arising of the supramundane path factors. If the accumulation of kusala through mundane concentration, samatha and sati were not part of the path, they would not be referred to as part of the "noble" mundane path, and they would not accumulate kusala which will lead towards the arising of the supramundane path factors, which I believe, from the above and other references, they do. Back to the full statement which you have quoted from the Vism: > > "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane' [J: i.e., supramundane concentration], >...is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." Let me break that down into a less confusing statement for myself to focus on the point about these "two noble paths:" > > "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the [two] noble paths...: mundane and supramundane' >...is included...[in the method of developing understanding...] I want to emphasize here that this Vism passage includes both mundane and supramundane concentration under the same heading, as containing the same kind of concentration, even though that concentration in the supramundane path becomes...well, supramundane... "...the kind of concentration associated with the [mundane and supramundane] noble paths..." Two noble paths, one kind of concentration which feeds into both of them. One set of methods which leads to both. [Back to the original quote so you won't think I'm tampering with it: "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane'..."] So you see my point. Even the Vism directly justifies the Buddha's frequent emphasizing of mundane path development in his many suttas by acknowledging both mundane and supramundane path development as that of "two noble paths," and of mundane and supramundane concentration as of noble path development. So while we like to talk about the Buddha having "only one path," here the Vism directly acknowledges "two noble paths." Of course these "two noble paths" are like two streams that merge into one larger stream. There are not two streams to enter but there are two entryways. The worldling can enter the calmer easier stream which is the stream of mundane understanding and development and from there develop the kusala and mundane panna, sati and pariyatti to accumulate the critical amount needed to enter the more advanced, higher-level supramundane stream when it has the accumulations to arise. In the meantime we develop kusala and understanding through mundane understanding and mundane development. Isn't that what we do? So the idea that only the paramatha level is part of the path I think is clearly wrong. There is a clear continuum both in sutta and in Vism, even in your own quote, where the mundane development of mundane path factors is clearly and fully acknowledged as part of the "noble path." [BTW, if you are in need of a legal assistant for any of your work, I am rather strapped for cash and am ready to fly to Hong Kong or Sydney at a moment's notice for the right price.] > > So the first point is that the whole of Part II deals with mundane samadhi, i.e., samadhi that is kusala but that is not part of the path. Again, it seems this distinction is contradicted by the Vism. Rather than saying that such mundane samadhi is "not part of the path," I think we should rather say that it is part of the "noble mundane path" or stream, as the Vism says in your quote. The development of mundane samadhi in my view does lead to the development of the conditions for supramundane samadhi, *as long as such development takes place with [mundane] right understanding.* In other words, mere development of samadhi in the yogic sense would not accumulate kusasla towards creating the conditions for the arising of supramundane samadhi, but mundane development with right understanding of the path, which would accumulate the necessary kusala to effect this end, would, and is thus part of the "noble mundane path," as stated in the Vism passage above. I think that with a requisite degree of right understanding that does not support the idea of a self that has control of the process, the mundane path is a "noble stream" of the path that accumulates the conditions for the noble path factors to arise, and is part of a continuum of the path, which is as the Buddha preached to those who did not yet have supramundane understanding. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #114925 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 7, 2011 9:35 am Subject: Feeding Equanimity! bhikkhu5 Friends: Feeding the Serene Equanimity! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding and cannot survive without food, so are the 7 Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot remain without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen equanimity and also feeding of the completion by condensation of any arisen Equanimity? There are states that are the basis & source Equanimity! Frequently pointing careful and rational attention to them, is feeding the emergence of unarisen equanimity & also feeding of the gradual fulfillment of any arisen Equanimity Link to Awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs all emergence of a yet unarisen equanimity and which also hinders any already arisen Equanimity Link from reaching complete fulfillment by development? There are states that are the basis and source for the equanimity! Not giving frequent, careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much and often; is the starving that prevents an unarisen equanimity from arising and also blocks any already arisen equanimity from reaching any complete fulfillment through training in the form of frequent meditation! Comments from the classical commentaries: Imperturbable onlooking ballance is characteristic of the equanimity. (Upekkh-Sambojjhanga). Moderation, seeking the neutral middle, composure and control is the purpose of the quality of Equanimity (Upekkh). Imperturbability is the manifestation of the equanimity. This stable yet still plastic patience purifies all the other advantageous mental states, which thus reach their maximum, when joined with Equanimity... Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the equanimity are: 1: Impartiality regarding all living & sentient beings... 2: Indifference regarding all inanimate constructions... 3: Avoiding biased people who prefer favouritism & one-sided partiality... 4: Friendship with well ballanced people unmoved by both pleasure & pain... 5: Commitment to ballance the mind into even & imperturbable Equanimity! There is Equanimity towards living beings and regarding material things! There is Equanimity towards internal states & regarding external states! There is Equanimity towards all past, present, and future times, and events! There is Equanimity towards all mentality and regarding all materiality! <....> Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114926 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 7, 2011 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >So here is another distinction in kamma, whether it is created with regard to a >being or dhammas. So what are the differences in this kamma, if the action or >volition is directed towards a being or not? KO: The action must be directed towards the being or dhamma. The difference is not about whether the object is a being or a dhamma, it just illustrate the point that kamma is commited (for eg killing) whether the object is a being or not. The difference in kamma is the object when the kamma is being done. For eg killing parent is weighty while another human is not weighty but very blamable. Killing a virture man is more blameable than killing a non-virture man. Right View and Commentary <> >That is interesting. If I understand the example correctly, he re-did the action > > >the second time with mindfulness, because he was unconscious of what he was >doing the first time? If so that is a good example of intentionally practicing >mindfulness in everyday life. Rob E - So all three levels create kamma, both good and bad? I think the dsg view of this is that only the mental volition is the "real kamma" and that everything else is a result or repository of mental kamma of a weak or of a greater strength. KO: I will write what the commentary position on this Right View and Commentary <> In Expositor pg 134 <<(1) The first seven in order out of the courses of action are volition only; the three begining with covetousness are factors associated with volition (2) The first seven and wrong views - these eights are courses of action, not root. But covetousness and will will are both courses of action and roots Its sound contradicting where one one hand the seven courses of kamma are not roots while killing of living beings has two roots. Here is the explanation. (apperception is javana) Expositor, PTS pg 127, 128 <> Expositor, PTS .pg 130 <> When the mind is supramundane or enlightenment, all the 8 factors of the path are in one consciousness including right actions, right speech and right livelihood. At that path moment, all volitions are mental Ken O #114927 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 4:06 am Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening szmicio Dear Ken O, Nina and all. The topic is hard. I could not understand anything of it. Could you give some introduction o the topic and some comments part by part. Thanks in advance Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > > >So here is another distinction in kamma, whether it is created with regard to a > > > >being or dhammas. So what are the differences in this kamma, if the action or > >volition is directed towards a being or not? > > KO: The action must be directed towards the being or dhamma. The difference > is not about whether the object is a being or a dhamma, it just illustrate the > point that kamma is commited (for eg killing) whether the object is a being or > not. The difference in kamma is the object when the kamma > > is being done. For eg killing parent is weighty while another human is not > weighty but very blamable. Killing a virture man is more blameable than killing > a > > non-virture man. > > Right View and Commentary > > < (guna), it is less blameworthy in respect of small living beings and more > blameworthy in respect of beings with large bodies. Why? Because of the > magnitude of the effort involved. And when the effort involved is equal, because > of the magnitude of the object (the being killed). In relation to beings such as > humans, etc., who possess moral qualities, it is less blameworthy in respect of > beings with few good qualities and more blameworthy in respect of beings with > great qualities. When the size of the body and moral qualities are equal, > however, it is less blameworthy when the defilements and activity are mild, and > more blameworthy when they are strong: so it should be understood.>> > > > >That is interesting. If I understand the example correctly, he re-did the action > > > > > >the second time with mindfulness, because he was unconscious of what he was > >doing the first time? If so that is a good example of intentionally practicing > >mindfulness in everyday life. > > Rob E - So all three levels create kamma, both good and bad? I think the dsg > view of this is that only the mental volition is the "real kamma" and that > everything else is a result or repository of mental kamma of a weak or of a > greater strength. > > KO: I will write what the commentary position on this > > Right View and Commentary > < taking what is not given, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and > delusion; misconduct, by way of greed and delusion; false speech, by way of hate > and delusion or by way of greed and delusion; likewise for malicious speech and > gossip; harsh speech, by way of hate and delusion. Covetousness has one root, by > way of delusion; likewise ill will. Wrong view has two roots, by way of greed > and delusion.>> > > In Expositor pg 134 > <<(1) The first seven in order out of the courses of action are volition only; > the three begining with covetousness are factors associated with volition (2) > The first seven and wrong views - these eights are courses of action, not root. > But covetousness and will will are both courses of action and roots > > Its sound contradicting where one one hand the seven courses of kamma are not > roots while killing of living beings has two roots. Here is the explanation. > (apperception is javana) > > Expositor, PTS pg 127, 128 > < not usually spoken of as mind door. (That is to say) because of the arising of > (bodily) movement it does not go under the name of mind-door. The non restraint > here is that of the moving body. When such apperception arises, resulting in > the movement of the vocal door, pure and simple, without the body door, then the > contact co-existent with the consciousness is mind contact.>> > > Expositor, PTS .pg 130 > < contact, but through the door of mind-contact only; similarly with an immoral > act of speech. But an immoral act of thought arises through the six doors of > contact. If it results in movement in body and vocal doors, it is an immoral > act of body and speech, not attaining such movement, it is an immoral act of > thought. As it does not arise though the contact door, no immoral act of body > take place thourgh the five unrestrained doors. But it arises through the > unrestrained doors of the moving body and the moving vocal organ; it does not > arise through the unrestrained door of mind. Nor does an immoral act of speech > arise through the five doors when unrestrained; it arises through the door of > the moving body when unrestrained and the moving vocal organ; it does not arise > through the unrestrained door of mind.>> > > When the mind is supramundane or enlightenment, all the 8 factors of the path > are in one consciousness including right actions, right speech and right > livelihood. At that path moment, all volitions are mental > > > Ken O > #114928 From: Lukas Date: Sun May 8, 2011 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 4. szmicio Dear Nina, This is well said. I've looked up your latent tendencies series and read it by post. Do you have maybe the whole series in one txt file? Best wishes Lukas P.s I think maybe if I read the series and will have all asaya-anusaya in mind, that may help me. I had few bad moments of ignorance and misery today. --- On Mon, 10/19/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > From: Nina van Gorkom > Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 4. > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 9:19 AM > Dear friends, > > In the Commentary to the “Book of Analysis”, the > “Dispeller of > Delusion”, Ch 8, Classification of the Right Efforts, > Suttanta > Division, 1448, it is said: > > “But the five aggregates are called the plane of insight. > These are > divided into past, future and present. But the defilements > inhering > in these are not to be said to be past, future or present; > inhering > in the past aggregates, they are unabandoned. Inhering in > the future > aggregates and in the present aggregates, they are also > unabandoned. > This is called ‘arisen having obtained a plane’. Hence > the ancients > said: ‘The defilements which are unabolished in this or > that plane > are counted as arisen having obtained a soil’.” > > The “Visuddhimagga”, in the explanation about “Purity > by Knowledge > and Vision” (Ch XXII, 81-86), gives an additional > explication about > “arisen in the > sense of having obtained a soil”. > It states: “While unprofitable [kamma] is still > unabolished in any > given soil [plane], it is called arisen by having soil [to > grow in].” > This refers to the latent tendencies that lie dormant in > the citta. > We read further on (82): > > “And here the difference between ‘soil’ and ‘having > obtained a soil’ > should be > understood. For ‘soil’ (plane) means the five > aggregates in the three > planes of becoming, which are the objects of insight. > ‘What has > obtained a soil’ is an expression for defilements, > capable of arising > with respect to those aggregates. Those defilements have > that soil > (plane). That is why ‘by having soil [to grow in]’ is > said.... > > Now when defilements are inherent, in the sense of being > unabandoned, > in someone’s aggregates, it is only those aggregates of > his that are > basis for those defilements, not aggregates belonging to > another. ... > But in the case of the Stream Enterer, etc., when a given > defilement, > which is a root of the round, has been abandoned by means > of a given > path in a given Noble Person’s aggregates, then, his > aggregates are > no longer called ‘soil’ for such defilement since they > are no longer > a basis for it...” > > Therefore, the defilements that are dormant in the citta, > the latent > tendencies, are realities which each have their own > characteristic. > These can be eradicated by the development of insight, and > this > means, by knowing the true nature of the aggregates or the > realities > which appear. > > ******* > Nina. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > mailto:dhammastudygroup-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > #114929 From: Lukas Date: Sun May 8, 2011 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna szmicio Hi Vince So what's important is sila that is different then dana. Sila refrains from transgression of akusala deeds. While offering is different. This is all not ours. I am constantly forgetting this. Best wishes Lukas --- On Mon, 5/2/11, Vince wrote: > From: Vince > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, May 2, 2011, 1:48 PM > Hi (Howard, Lukas) > > you wrote: > > >H: Why either/or? Wisdom and compassion can be > conjoined. > > yes. From here the discussion about if sotapannas can break > some precept. > > Some people in Buddhism says their sila already is perfect > despite their wisdom > still is not. On my understanding it would mean both are > not conjoined. > I wonder when sila is already perfect then how can be a > progress of wisdom for > the non-eradicated fetters. > > > >L: I think the point here is develop more > understanding, so that there will be more > >L: conditions for kusala. > > or by the other side: by missing kusala and feeling dhukka > there is development > of wisdom. Then it would mean sila cannot be perfect while > there is need of more wisdom. > It isn't?. Well, this is what I think until today... #114930 From: "philip" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 9:10 am Subject: Guarding against transgression (Lukas) philofillet Hi Lukas Sorry I haven't called you, but I've been staying off the computer and i-phone as much as possible, much better conditions for kusala without, in my case. I'll pop in occasionally to share some ideas about avoiding transgressions against morality as defined by the Buddha. It's a fascinating and important topic. In my case, the transgressional-level defilement that has the most powerful is sexual misconduct, so it is a constant battle. I say battle, but I enjoy it, because there is more and more confidence that wisdom and other kusala factors are gaining ground, and the defilements are not as compelling. Recently I have found there is a kind of mindfulness of the defilements that rise up and call for my co-operation as unwelcome visitors, or soldiers of mara. THere is at the same time (of course, strictly speaking, different moments) understanding that these are kusala akusala cetasikas combining in different ways to lead me astray, they are not "me." But I'd like you to note that stories about visitors or soldiers of mara, those conventional conceptual ideas are *not* irreconciliable with satipatthana. Just because we think about concepts of a good person doing battle with soldiers of mara doesn' mean that there cannot be satipatthana at different moments. For example, one of my favourite suttas is SN 35:246 which says: "Bhikkhus, if in any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni desire or lust or hatred or delusion or aversion of mind should arise in regard to forms cognizable by the eye, such a one should rein in the mind from them thus: 'This path is fearful, dangerous, strewn with thorns, covered by jungle, a deviant path, an evil path, a way beset by scarcity. This is a path followed by inferior people; it is not the path followed by superior people. This is not for you.' In this way the mind should be reined in from these states regarding forms congnizable by the eye. So too regarding sounds cognizable by the ear...." You see, the BUddha does teach us at times to value our self-image when facing powerful defilements. We don't always go through life with this kind of thinking, but at times the Buddha asks us to remember that we are above certain kinds of behaviour. Does that mean he asks us to have mana at times? I guess it does. Mana is inevitable for us, and it can help us at times as the Buddha makes clear here. So please don't let anyone convince you that thinking about being a good person is not one of the Buddha's ways to help us, because it is. And if you want to believe people who tell you that we can't understand suttas, and the above doesn't mean what it says, or that only people in the Buddha's day of advanced understanding could understand the above, well, if you want to believe people who tell you that, it is your choice. So satipatthana may arise at moments, gradually (and in a way that is beyond our control, so if people tell us to stress it, they are not helping) developing understanding of the present moment realities that push us into transgression, but also thinking about being a good person who is above transgression. They are not contradictory. They go together. Remember, the Buddha was like a doctor who prescribed different medicine to different people of different understanding at different times. If you only listen to A. Sujin, it might be easy to miss that point, because she always goes straight to the paramattha level. But we are lucky to hear her as long as we don't misunderstand and somehow end up believing that transgressing against the precepts, for example, if not to be avoided at all costs.... I will send you a note now and then, but sorry, can't discuss! Metta, Phil #114931 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 1:33 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO: The action must be directed towards the being or dhamma. The difference > is not about whether the object is a being or a dhamma, it just illustrate the > point that kamma is commited (for eg killing) whether the object is a being or > not. The difference in kamma is the object when the kamma > > is being done. For eg killing parent is weighty while another human is not > weighty but very blamable. Killing a virture man is more blameable than killing > a > > non-virture man. Thanks for more good information. It still seems very confusing to me, but I can see pieces of the picture. > When the mind is supramundane or enlightenment, all the 8 factors of the path > are in one consciousness including right actions, right speech and right > livelihood. At that path moment, all volitions are mental That is very interesting. What happens to the physical during such a time? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114932 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 12:17 pm Subject: Awareness Awakens! bhikkhu5 Friends: The 7 Links to Awakening produce Final Enlightenment... There are these 7 links leading to final Enlightenment... 1: Awareness is a link to Awakening. 2: Investigation of the states is a link to Awakening. 3: Energy is a link to Awakening. 4: Joy is a link to Awakening. 5: Tranquillity is a link to Awakening. 6: Concentration is a link to Awakening. 7: Equanimity is a link to Awakening. They lead to and induce enlightenment! Thus are they links to awakening: They are themselves enlightened, in this way are they links to awakening. They are enlightened, since they embrace the root cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they provide & equip the cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they induce ripening of the cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they enhance the root cause of awakening. They are enlightened, since they completely perfect the cause of awakening. How do the 7 Links to Awakening remain established and anchored in mind? The Awareness link remains by no attention being given to other states. The Awareness link remains by the sign of being directed to continuously. The Awareness link remains by the sign-less state being given attention. The Awareness link remains by no attention given to mental construction. The Awareness link remains by attention being given to ceasing of craving. The Awareness link to Awakening indeed remains fixed & anchored in mind in these 5 ways. Exactly & similarly so with the other 6 links to Awakening. <....> Source (edited extract): Sariputta Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. On the Links to Awakening XIII. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114933 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Guarding against transgression (Lukas) szmicio Hi Phil, > Sorry I haven't called you, L: That's all right. >but I've been staying off the computer and i-phone as much as possible,much better conditions for kusala without, in my case. L: Understandable. > Recently I have found there is a kind of mindfulness of the defilements that rise up and call for my co-operation as unwelcome visitors, or soldiers of mara. THere is at the same time (of course, strictly speaking, different moments) understanding that these are kusala akusala cetasikas combining in different ways to lead me astray, they are not "me." But I'd like you to note that stories about visitors or soldiers of mara, those conventional conceptual ideas are *not* irreconciliable with satipatthana. Just because we think about concepts of a good person doing battle with soldiers of mara doesn' mean that there cannot be satipatthana at different moments. > You see, the BUddha does teach us at times to value our self-image when facing powerful defilements. We don't always go through life with this kind of thinking, but at times the Buddha asks us to remember that we are above certain kinds of behaviour. Does that mean he asks us to have mana at times? I guess it does. Mana is inevitable for us, and it can help us at times as the Buddha makes clear here. So please don't let anyone convince you that thinking about being a good person is not one of the Buddha's ways to help us, because it is. And if you want to believe people who tell you that we can't understand suttas, and the above doesn't mean what it says, or that only people in the Buddha's day of advanced understanding could understand the above, well, if you want to believe people who tell you that, it is your choice. L: How can I have more sila? Best wishes Lukas #114934 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 5:48 pm Subject: right speech - sila - problems szmicio Dear friends, I have this problem, cause I realized that i cant speak in a nice and polite way ie like Sarah do. When I was recently visiting old guy for a tee, that I met in a local library, he started talk much, very much with such a lot of topics like pope's assasination because he's an cia agent. I could not say anything so I just didnt response. I dint know what to answer. So left it. I was just looking at the old man. This happens all the time with me. I dont know how to develop kind and generous speech. No matter what I say this is limited by my weak sannja(memory) to find a proper word. It's not able to find a proper words. Instead of it I prefer to be silent, but this doesnt lead to kind and generous sitautions, rather for awkward moments. Shall I try to develop kind speech? How to do this? Best wishes Lukas #114935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 8, 2011 6:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Lukas, Ken O gives many texts. Could you explain which topics, one at a time, you find difficult? Nina. Op 7-mei-2011, om 20:06 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Dear Ken O, Nina and all. > The topic is hard. I could not understand anything of it. Could you > give some introduction o the topic and some comments part by part. #114936 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 8, 2011 6:46 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 7-mei-2011, om 20:23 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I've looked up your latent tendencies series and read it by post. > Do you have maybe the whole series in one txt file? -------- N: Not yet and this will take me a long time. I am going over the whole text and have to send it to Thailand to ask permission for translation. --------- > > L: I think maybe if I read the series and will have all asaya- > anusaya in mind, that may help me. I had few bad moments of > ignorance and misery today. -------- N: Who doesn't? Only the arahat has eradicated ignorance. Moments of happiness and misery alternate, that is life. They are beyond control, they arise because of conditions. More important than reading the texts is understanding this moment. If this moment is akusala citta we should understand that it can only arise because there are latent tendencies accumulated in each citta. These are powerful. They are there because they have not been eradicated yet. They condition the arising of akusala citta, such as attachment to visible object, sound and the other sense objects. Or attachment to pleasant feelings. You dislike unpleasant feeling because there is the latent tendency of aversion. ------- Lukas in other posts: How can I have more sila? ------ N: By developing right understanding of the naama or ruupa appearing now. Then you will learn that siila cannot arise on command, that it does not something that you can have at will. Then you will not ask anymore: how can I have more siila, more understanding. But you are on the right way, since these days you discuss Dhamma more. Listening, discussing, considering, these are conditions for direct awareness and understanding. --------- L: I dont know how to develop kind and generous speech. No matter what I say this is limited by my weak sannja(memory) to find a proper word. It's not able to find a proper words. Instead of it I prefer to be silent, but this doesnt lead to kind and generous sitautions, rather for awkward moments. Shall I try to develop kind speech? How to do this? ------- N: It depends on the citta at a given moment. There is no : how to..., see above. It is not always wrong to keep silent. Better than saying useless things. When you think of the benefit of someone else, not about yourself who should have kind speech, there may be conditions to say the right thing. Again: not on command or at will. You may feel sorry for someone else and then the words come spontaneously. --------- Nina. #114937 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 8, 2011 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Sati. Was: part 1 to Ken O nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 6-mei-2011, om 8:01 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > It is always good to go back to the present moment and what is > experienced. Is "clear comprehension" in this case Sati Sampajanna? ------- N: Literally: sati and pa~n~naa. There is also sati sampaja~n~na in samatha. In vipassanaa the objects are naama and ruupa. There are different degrees and it can develop. When there is direct awareness of what appears now, at the same time there can be understanding of that characteristic. Just one moment of awareness of, for example, sound or feeling is not sufficient for pa~n~naa to grow. We have accumulated so much ignorance and forgetfulness and that is why sati arises so seldom. Moreover, the perfections are not sufficiently developed. They support pa~n~naa of vipassanaa, but when they are dificient there is not enough support of pa~n~naa. When we try to 'do' something to have more awareness, the idea of self is in the way. Therefore, it is best not to think about my progress or lack of progress. There is the present moment now, even while thinking of lack of progress. That is just a kind of thinking. It is thinking of the past or the future and therefore not helpful. ------ Nina. #114938 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening szmicio Dear Nina > Ken O gives many texts. Could you explain which topics, one at a > time, you find difficult? L: Actually this is that one: Right View and Commentary <> >That is interesting. If I understand the example correctly, he re-did the action > > >the second time with mindfulness, because he was unconscious of what he was >doing the first time? If so that is a good example of intentionally practicing >mindfulness in everyday life. Rob E - So all three levels create kamma, both good and bad? I think the dsg view of this is that only the mental volition is the "real kamma" and that everything else is a result or repository of mental kamma of a weak or of a greater strength. KO: I will write what the commentary position on this Right View and Commentary <> In Expositor pg 134 <<(1) The first seven in order out of the courses of action are volition only; the three begining with covetousness are factors associated with volition (2) The first seven and wrong views - these eights are courses of action, not root. But covetousness and will will are both courses of action and roots Its sound contradicting where one one hand the seven courses of kamma are not roots while killing of living beings has two roots. Here is the explanation. (apperception is javana) Expositor, PTS pg 127, 128 <> Expositor, PTS .pg 130 <> When the mind is supramundane or enlightenment, all the 8 factors of the path are in one consciousness including right actions, right speech and right livelihood. At that path moment, all volitions are mental Best wishes Lukas #114939 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 8:58 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies. szmicio Dear Nina, > More important than reading the texts is understanding this moment. > If this moment is akusala citta we should understand that it can only > arise because there are latent tendencies accumulated in each citta. L: So being aware of the seeing and hearing now? I've learned that sometimes there is kusala thinking, but it doesn't need any effort then when it arises. It happens spontaneously. But then it alters with akusala thinking all the time. And those moments of akusala thinking they last too long. I am constantly looking for a way to get back to right thinking. But it doesn't work. No matter what I do this old kamma needs to burn out. Best wishes Lukas #114940 From: "azita" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 9:34 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies. gazita2002 hallo Lucas, > L: So being aware of the seeing and hearing now? > I've learned that sometimes there is kusala thinking, but it doesn't need any effort then when it arises. It happens spontaneously. But then it alters with akusala thinking all the time. And those moments of akusala thinking they last too long. I am constantly looking for a way to get back to right thinking. But it doesn't work. No matter what I do this old kamma needs to burn out. > azita: lets jst say sometimes there is kusala thinking and sometimes there is akusala thinking - both arise due to conditions - no one can make thinking happen, as you say thinking arises 'spontaneously' I think there is much more akusala in a day than kusala, but there can be awareness of either, it doesnt matter, who's choosing? No-one! jst a wrong idea of a self who can do something about it. you say you are constantly looking for a way to get back to right thinking, but that it doesnt work - could that be a kinda proof that forcing the issue really cant work; its a false idea that we can change what has already arisen; but there can be a growing understanding that these realities arise, they fall away, and there's no controlling them but there can be awareness of them. take it easy Lucas Patience, courage and good cheer azita #114941 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 8, 2011 11:38 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies. szmicio Thank you azita. This is helpful: > I think there is much more akusala in a day than kusala, but there can be awareness of either, it doesnt matter, who's choosing? No-one! jst a wrong idea of a self who can do something about it. Best wishes Lukas #114942 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 12:12 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies. szmicio Hi azita, One thing more to Nina aswer. Nina said when I wrote about having asaya-anysaya series in mind that better is understanding the present moment. I remember that I had a friend who was very advanced in pali translation and this was constantly anoying me that he translate sati as memory, remembrance. I tried to explain that this is not good translation cause sati has it's own distinc characteristic that is not the same as memory. But when I am considering Dhamma now, I sometimes appreciate this having Dhamma in mind. I think having in mind, remembering Dhamma text's can be a condition for right understanding now. For example when I read more, the mind considers more Dhamma and this can be a condition for kusala or right thinking. Just of top. Have a nice day. Lukas P.s I know Adam is lurking cause he wrote me that he had a lot of fun due to my recent post. #114943 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 9, 2011 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-mei-2011, om 23:03 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > . I really enjoyed the quotes from commentary that you gave here, > but they do not exactly explain how a citta can carry something > that is "latent." The mechanism is there, but not the "storage > container." ------- N: Perhaps it helps to consider the first moment of our life, the rebirth-consciousness. Why are we born with different inclinations, why is there such a great variety of humans, and other beings? It must come from the past. The past conditions the present. Kamma and defilements have been accumulated and thus there are conditions for rebirth. The following texts of the Visuddhimagga deal with kamma that produces rebirth-consciousness, kamma and vipaaka. But these texts also help us to understand that accumulated good and bad inclinations of the past also play their part as conditions in the present life. Text Vis.Ch XVII, 167: And with a stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. --------- N: The Tiika explains that there is no absolute identity with a stream of continuity, because there is the manifestation of another citta. Cittas succeed one another, they arise in continuity, and this is also the case when the dying-consciousness falls away and is immediately succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness. The rebirth- consciousness is another citta, arising in a new life. The Tiika explains that there is also no absolute otherness because of the continuous stream of cittas (santaanabandhato), just as in the case of the flames of a fire that arise from moment to moment in one continuity. -------- Text Vis: For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. ---------- N: The Tiika explains as to the expression ' For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity', that in that case diversity would not be assumed which is wrong. .... -------------- N: Kamma of the past is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. Also good and bad inclinations of the past are accumulated from moment to moment so that they have the opportunity to condition the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas in the next life. So long as we are in the cycle there is an unbroken continuity of cittas that arise in succession. To return to your question: why citta can carry something that is latent. Each citta is succeeded by a following citta and thus accumulations go on in the stream of life. But it is not so that citta 'carries' something. Which citta? It is gone already. -------- Nina. #114944 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 9, 2011 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 8-mei-2011, om 12:47 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > time, you find difficult? > > L: Actually this is that one: ------- N: You gave the whole post. I would suggest that we take only one point at a time. You could give your comment on one point and explain what you do not get, is that all right? Nina. #114945 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 12:40 pm Subject: Reaching Release! bhikkhu5 Friends: Final Release is Fulfilled by True Wisdom! Once in Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: How, nanda , are the Seven Links to Awakening trained and developed so that they fulfill True Wisdom and Final Release? When a Bhikkhu, nanda , develops the Awareness Link to Awakening, based upon seclusion, disillusion, & ceasing, then it matures into release! When he develops the Investigation Link to Awakening, based upon total seclusion, disillusion, & ceasing, then it culminates into mental release! When he develops the Energy Link to Awakening, based upon seclusion, disillusioned disgust, & ceasing of craving, then it blossoms into release! When he develops the Joy Link to Awakening, based on solitary seclusion, detached disgust, and ceasing of craving, then it progresses into release! When he develops the Tranquillity Link to Awakening, based upon complete isolation, disillusion, & ceasing, then it comes to a climax of final release! When he develops the Concentration Link to Awakening, while alone and reclusive, undeceived, & cooled, there is breakthrough of mental release! When he develops the Equanimity Link to Awakening, based upon seclusion, disillusioned disgust, & ceasing of craving, then it flourishes into release! It is, nanda , when the Seven Links to Awakening are trained & refined in this way, that they fulfil the causes of True Wisdom and Final Release! <....> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. [V:333] section 54: npnasamyutta. Thread 13: nanda Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114946 From: Vince Date: Mon May 9, 2011 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Dear Lukas you wrote: > So what's important is sila that is different then dana. Sila refrains from > transgression of akusala deeds. While offering is different. > This is all not ours. I am constantly forgetting this. yes, knowledge of precepts can refrain of a degree of transgression but I think sila only can be established by wisdom. One is not responsable of all what happens inside him. We are responsible only of our own neglecting to manage attachment. A total responsibility exceed our reach and knowledge (because kamma and many things). I believe the real establishment of sila only is possible by applying attention to what happens in present moment: "Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be. " MN 10 also, we read a person who is established in the present moment he don't need efforts in the arising of awareness, sila, wisdom, etc..: "For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment." AN 11.2 we prefer to be engaged instead to be detached. By detachment one can observe the arising, change and vanishing. I understand this is the real way for a true establishment of sila. (for this reason I cannot believe in a perfect sila while lacking of perfect wisdom) best, Vince. #114947 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 5:22 pm Subject: Re: A Sotapanna szmicio Dear Vince, Thank you for supporting comments and quotes. Very helpful. > "Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is > sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no > sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire > comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; > and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire > comes to be. " > MN 10 L: I was wondering what 3 points mean here: the arising of the non-arisen, abandoning of arisen comes to be, the non-arising in the future of the abandoned. > also, we read a person who is established in the present moment he don't need > efforts in the arising of awareness, sila, wisdom, etc..: > > "For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for > an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that > a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment." L: This is very true. That's why I appreciate those few moments of understanding. When they appear everything's so easy, so natural, not mine, just arisen and past away due to conditions, no Self. Then kusala is not taken for myself. This is really a release. This is different than moment of Self trying to have good sila. > we prefer to be engaged instead to be detached. By detachment one can observe > the arising, change and vanishing. I understand this is the real way for a true > establishment of sila. > (for this reason I cannot believe in a perfect sila while lacking of perfect > wisdom) Best wishes Lukas #114948 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing falls away never to return...but craving? Hi Phil & All, --- On Fri, 29/4/11, philip wrote: >Ph: ...That the javanas accumulate, and this can lead to the deeepening of harmful tendencies in this life and to woeful results in lives to come. It is very attractive to reduce the world, existence, everything, to one citta and surely that is what the panna of the deeply developed understanding does. But the Buddha does indeed warn again and again of the results of bad deeds. I still feel that A. Sujin and her students somehow like to minimize that aspect of the Dhamma in favour of contemplation of the very deeply liberating (when actually attained) understanding of all reduced to one citta! .... S: This is the only way that the real harm of akusala, not just the gross akusala, but even the subtler akusala at this moment can be known for what it is. Bad deeds will never end just out of fear of bad results for oneself - they will only cease when the the harm of akusala cittas, beginning with those at this moment, are truly understood. This is why it is the right understanding of the path that eradicates akusala tendencies, not the concern about the future. Metta Sarah ===== #114949 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening Dear Friends, --- On Fri, 29/4/11, Ken H wrote: >>KH: In what way have the ancient masters said concepts were part of the path? >> > KO: many ways, you could read Visud where the meditation subjects are mostly concepts. Or practising of virture where the objects are at times concepts, beings and not paramatha dhamma. --------------------- >KH: You are talking about moments of dana sila and samatha, but not about moments of vipassana. Only vipassana is the path; those other kusala moments are not. .... S: The "Atthasalinii" states (I, Book I, Part I, Ch I, Triplets in the Maatikaa, 44) that akusala dhamma as well as kusala dhamma which are not of the eightfold Path are leading to accumulation, to continuation of the cycle of birth and death. We read about akusala and kusala which are not of the Path: ... "leading to accumulation" aacayagaamin) are "those states which go about severally, arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall." The kusala dhamma which are not of the eightfold path fall under dana, sila and samatha bhavana. The highest arupa jhanas can be attained, but they just accumulate more bricks in samsara. They are not the path. Metta Sarah ====== #114950 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Love as a motivating citta Hi Phil, --- On Sat, 30/4/11, philip wrote: >I told her I am no longer interested in some great Love but am instead interested in love that is momentary and motivates moments of caring through action. .... S: Nice. Thx for sharing your good example. And there are opportunities throughout the day to show love and caring through action to others around us. Metta Sarah ===== #114951 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated Hi Howard & all, # 114858 --- On Sun, 1/5/11, upasaka@... wrote: >S: Yes, I would say, a particular mental state that "grows" in penetrative function and acuity (as you suggest). This is all that "accumulates" means. The reason this is possible is because of particular conditions, the main one of which is the one I mentioned above, not kamma as Ken O suggested before. ... > You are correct, Sarah, as to the "main" cause, but it is still only one of at least eight. Moreover, if you will consider the eight that the Buddha lists below (in one sutta), I think it is clear that volition is one condition (among several) for each one of these causes, with the possible exception of the third (as it is stated). ... S: Thank you for quoting the helpful sutta below. It is by the causes mentioned, such as listening to the Teacher, accumulating skillful mental qualities, understanding the khandhas that there is "the increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of that which has already been acquired." In other words, these are the conditions that lead to the growing, the accumulation of such states which occurs though natural decisive support condition. The accumulation is not through kamma condition, but the hearing of the Teachings, the seeing of particular visible objects and so on are the results of past kamma. We need to distinguish carefully between such vipaka and the accumulated tendencies which arise on account of that vipaka. AN 8.2 PTS: _A iv 151_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_IV_utf8.html#pts.151) Paa Sutta: Discernment <...> "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "....those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth requisite condition... <...> "He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, the eighth requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. <...> Metta Sarah p.s Because of the length, I just left a few extracts this time for reference. ========== #114952 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Vince, --- On Mon, 2/5/11, Vince wrote: >> S: As discussed, a sotapanna won't hurt or kill. They know that it's not the insect that hurts us, but our own unwholesome cittas and deeds. ... V:>that's my point of disagreement: I think they know the insect is not the author,although for the rest, they ignore what happens *in terms of experience*. If they say "that's citta, that's kamma", I think it would be just intellectual knowledge performed later; this is not an explanation of the lived experience. ... S: I think "the lived experience" is that there is no idea of there being any other reality at that moment other than cittas, cetasikas and rupas. There's no idea of "an insect" in reality. Even now, "an insect" is just an idea, a concept. ... >V:I understand this: - When they are keeping awareness of the present moment, then they know the mosquito is anatta by reviewing their previous experience of anattay. - By means this reviewing, then they avoid killing the mosquito. However, thatsame moment is not an experience of anatta but just a reviewed-knowledge. ... S: This is not the understanding of dhamma as anatta. The mosquito is not anatta - the mosquito is an idea that is thought about. ... >V: - Only arhants can know what hurt us in the present moment because they can abide in non-self. ... S: It's not a matter of "abiding in non-self", but beginning to understand namas and rupas that appear now. At this moment, visible object is seen or hardness is experienced through the body-sense. These are realities that can be directly known now as anatta without any thought of any 'abiding'. .... V:> Note if a sotapanna has eradicated "I am" and he always knows citta, nama, rupa... then, Where can there be any place to conceive "I am"?. >Would no that an arhant instead a sotapanna? Where it would be the difference? .... S: Thank you for the sutta. A sotapanna has eradicated all (wrong idea) of self, but there are still conditions for conceit to arise. Only the arahat has no more conceit. In the texts, "This is mine" (eta"m mama) refers to craving (without wrong view), "this am I" (eso'ham asmi) to conceit (without wrong view) and "this is myself" (eso me attaa") to wrong view of atta. So when there is conceit (eso'ham asmi) - "this am I" in the texts, there is no wrong view of self at such times. Conceit and wrong view cannot arise together. Metta Sarah ======= Can you clarify this difference according your understanding? thanks for the discussion! :) best, Vince. #114953 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna s Hi Howard (& Vince), --- On Mon, 2/5/11, upasaka@... wrote: > My view is as follows: With regard to swatting the insect, there will be the realization "This will cause pain and harm," and immediately there will arise the irresistible inclination not to engage in that action. .... S: Yes, even those who have never heard the Dhamma will abstain from harming insects out of metta and compassion. I'm sure that many of us as children abstained from swatting insects long before we'd heard anything about dhammas and kamma and so on. Good point! Metta Sarah ===== #114954 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening Hi Rob E, part 1 or part 1 to Ken O! --- On Mon, 2/5/11, Robert E wrote: >>S: Occasionally, during the day, instead of thinking about other beings with ignorance, attachment or aversion, instead there's thinking with kindness, metta, generosity, compassion or equanimity. Likewise, occasionally whilst thinking of concepts of various kinds, there's non-attachment, abstaining from harm, relinquishment or morality of one kind or other. If there is a development of understanding of the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states and a consideration of the value of the former, these are likely to grow and become more significant. ... R:> I am correct that all of the above is in the conceptual realm? Would it be correct to say that if metta or other kusala cetasikas arise, that these arise with the thinking, even though the thinking is about concepts? Or does it arise between the thoughts? .... S: Yes, above I was referring to kusala (wholesome) thinking. This was to show that concepts are usually the objects of kusala cittas that arise during the day. As you suggest, the metta and other kusala cetasikas arise with those thinking cittas, experiencing exactly the same objects - in this case, concepts about people or other beings. There can also be right understanding and awareness of the metta (or other kusala states) immediately following their arising. .... >>S:Still, most of the day and for most (small)children or animals, even for most adults probably, there is little or no view about whether the visible object appearing now belongs to a Self or is seen by a Self or any one of the 20 kinds of sakkaya-ditthi. In other words, most beings (or kinds of consciousness referred to as beings), just conceptualise during the day in ignorance and attachment, but without sakkaya-ditthi arising UNLESS there is a reflecting of views about realities, truths and so on. .... R:> So self-view is always an additional false concept, rather than the mere delusory perception of conceptually formed beings. Seeing a being as existent is a 'false view' but is not 'self view' which I guess is a more highly specialized and harmful view? .... S: Atta-ditthi refers to the 20 ways of assuming a 'thing' or 'being' in any of the khandhas. Sakkaya-ditthi refers to the 20 ways of just assuming a 'being' or 'self' in one of those khandhas. There are also other kinds of wrong view, such as not accepting the law of kamma, for example. There can also just be delusory perception or ignorance of dhammas without any wrong understanding arising. This is what occurs throughout most of the day. This is what I was referring to above. It is the sakkaya-ditthi which is most harmful and the "grossest" defilement which has to be eradicated first. All other wrong views depend on this. .... R:> So if a child learns through perceptual training that the moments they perceive add up to various sorts of beings and objects, that can have attachment or not have attachment, but I assume that when self-view is developed and beings and objects are seen in terms of "I, Me and Mine" there is much greater attachment and the development of much greater akusala. Is that the distinction, or are there other reasons why self-view is particularly pernicious? .... S: Wrong view, including self-view (not just attachment or conceit), is particularly pernicious because it is a wrong perception, not just ignorance. When there is wrong perception, there will also be silabbataparamasa (adherence to wrong rites and rituals) and a following of the wrong path which is much more dangerous than not following any path. A wrong path can lead to the committing of any kind of akusala. .... R:> I guess you would also say that even the Buddha may engage in the 'false view' of beings, but without attachment, and while he may engage such 'false views' for convenience, he will never have a moment of engaging in 'self view.' If so, that would be a difference too. ... S: Even a sotapanna will not "engage in the 'false view' of beings", let alone the Buddha!! When there is thinking about beings, even if it is (for the sotapanna, not for the Buddha!) with attachment, there cannot be any 'false view' of any kind. Even now, when we think about people, there doesn't need to be any 'false view'. It is not the concepts that are the problem, but the ditthi which arises with the thinking which is the 'false view'. ..... >R: So when you look at the original example of a sotapanna engaged in sexual activity, he or she would obviously need to think of beings as existent in order to be involved in such a personal activity - probably true even for eating or walking - but that is relatively benign if done without attachment, whereas self-view always has attachment and would not arise for the sotapanna..? .... S: Lots of attachment whilst thinking of beings, but again it just depends on the cittas then or now as to whether there is any self-view arising. Same answer as above. We always think about different scenarios, but, as now, there are just different kinds of cittas and cetasikas arising and experiencing realities or concepts. .... contd Metta Sarah ==== #114955 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2011 8:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening Hi Rob E, part 2 (it was getting rather long..) --- On Mon, 9/5/11, sarah abbott wrote: R:> My only other question about this is whether a sotapanna would even engage in sexual activity. Is that still on the agenda for a stream-winner? Can a sotapanna be a householder with all the corresponding obligations? Can an arahant? .... S: An arahant - no. An arahant either ordains or dies - they cannot lead a household life. For the sotapanna, it depends on the accumulation of lobha, just as it does for us. All we can say is that there is no longer any wrong understanding about beings or things or any illusion about the Path and what is worthwhile in life. They have 'tasted' nibbana, the unconditioned. Remember Visakkha who became a sotapanna at the age of 7 and went on to have dozens of children and grandchildren. No delusion, no wrong-view, but she knew her accumulations were for the lay-life. .... >Isn't the view of the existence of beings also a "wrong view?" Perhaps I do not understand the specialized nature of the term. And isn't self-view developed in daily life as well, not just through adopting a wrong spiritual philosophy? .... S: I think you are (wrongly) assuming that whenever there is thinking about beings that there must be wrong view arising. Think about the examples discussed of cittas with metta and cittas with dosa, as in the intended killing of insects. In both cases, the object has to be another being/beings, but no wrong view can arise at those particular moments. Yes, self-view can develop in daily life, just as right-view about dhammas can develop. Even the one who has attained jhanas still has self-view if there hasn't been a development of satipatthana. However, the moments of self-view don't arise at the moments of kusala. .... >Thanks, Sarah. One final question: It seems to me that there would be a time when one would not even entertain any conceptual notions at all, and would only be in the presence of arising moments, seeing exactly what they are with clear arising citta. .... S: I think this a very common wrong idea about the goal of the Teachings. Even the Buddha "entertained" lots of concpetual notions thoughout the day. How else could he have taught the Dhamma or known which was his bowl or sleeping area? How could he have known who Ananda was or which was the route to travel? None of this suggests that there was or is anything other than "the presence of arising moments" or that any of the dhammas involved could not/can not be seeing "with clear arising citta". Important areas to clarify here.... ... R:> It sounds from the above that this sort of "pure" state would only be in play for short periods of time, or when nibbana has wiped away all cognizance of samsaric forms. Is there a time when the Buddha or an arahant is not doing anything 'worldly' when he or she would naturally reside in a state of total paramatha perception? Or do concepts always continue to arise while one is still in bodily form? .... S: During much of the day, for the arahats, as for us, there would be the experience of objects through the sense doors. For the arahats, of course, no kusala or akusala cittas, just kiriya cittas which experience objects with sobhana (beautiful) mental states. The objects can be concepts, such at moments of metta, or realities (paramattha dhammas), as at moments of insight. When these kiriya cittas arise, there is no more 'building of the bricks' of samsara, as there is for us. The roots have been cut. In addition, the Buddha and those ariyans who attained stages of enlightenment based on (mundane) jhana, are able to 'dwell in fruition' (phala samapatti), experiencing nibbana again and again. Anagamis and arahats may also 'dwell in cessation (nirodha samapatthi). At these times, according to pre-set time periods, no cittas arise. ... R:> I know that Buddha could go into the formless states at will and reside in the state of non-feeling, neither perception nor non-perception, etc., which he demonstrated prior to his parinibbana and reportedly did at other times. I wonder if he would 'hang out' in such a state when he didn't have anything else to do. :-) Or even take a break in complete cessation of nibbana. .... S: I hope that what I wrote above explained the 'hanging out:-)) a little. What else was there to do but give the tired old body a break:-)) On the earlier points about the experiencing of concepts, let me know if there are still any qus. I see this as more important and relevant now than exactly why the Buddha 'hung out':-) Metta Sarah ====== #114956 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:14 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses Hi Alex (113966) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, RobertK2, Nina, Sarah, KenH, Sukin, all, > > >J: But the belief in the ownership of the body can only be eroded >by virtue of dhammas being seen as dhammas/dhatus (mere impersonal >elements). > > Is there a sutta that states it in such categorical terms? > > It seems that "conventional" kayagatasati can, if done properly, lead to the path. > =============== J: To my understanding, kayagatasati involves the seeing of dhammas as dhammas/dhatus. There is nothing `conventional' about it ;-)) > =============== > > J: Yes, but the reaction I was speaking of is something that >*occurs*. It's not something that is (consciously/deliberately) >*done* or undertaken. > > > Everything occurs, so you can't separate what is deliberately done (and thus does not occur) vs what occurs. >=============== J: Firstly, seeing, hearing, etc. all occur without any conscious or deliberate effort on our part. Secondly, some actions are done because of a conscious or deliberate effort on our part, while other things are done reflexively, without any apparent conscious effort. An example of the latter would be the thinking that goes on throughout the day as we live our ordinary daily life. >=============== > Lets take these examples: A person wants to become big and strong. He goes to the gym, workouts out, eats right, etc and etc. After sometime, when all conditions have been met, the person is big and strong. > =============== J: Yes, but it's a question of whether this analogy applies to the development of the path. As far as I know, nowhere in the suttas did the Buddha say: If you want to have a lot of understanding, do such and such. What he did was to explain what understanding is (i.e., the understanding of dhammas) and what the conditions for its development are (hearing the teachings, etc.). And he also explained that both the understanding itself and the conditions for its development are impersonal dhammas. > =============== > Of course every desire, action, condition, has "occurred". There is no freedom of will or deliberate choice done by "Atta" (there isn't anatta). There were probably lots of subconscious forces acting on that person. No freedom of will, and everything has occurred. > > Does this mean that training is not necessary? Does this mean that training cannot occur? Can a person without any training or conditioning become MUCH MUCH better? No. > > Same with Buddhist path. > =============== J: Theres no such thing in the texts as pre-path training. There are prerequisite conditions for the arising of path moments, such as hearing the teachings and reflecting on what has been heard and understood, but these are not `things to be done' as a kind of training. Jon #114957 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:22 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) Hi Robert E (114021) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > [J:] But this doesn't mean that there is something called a computer monitor to begin with that 'breaks down' into visible object. > > [RE:] I didn't actually say that. I said the concept is formed on the basis of visible object + interpretation or conceptualization. There is no "computer monitor" per se, but there is the collection of visible moments and interpretations that give rise to the concept of computer monitor. In that sense they are intimately related. Even though one does not equal the other, the reality obscured by the concept is the actuality of visible object-moments, interspersed with other namas. > =============== J: The object of awareness/insight is a dhamma, not a process. > =============== > > That is a projection or assumption based on how we think about the world conventionally. It's not how the world is actually experienced, in absolute terms. > > [RE:] I agree, but I think it's important that the projection or assumption is a projection of what we think is there when we experience certain actual dhammas. > =============== J: The purpose of developing awareness of dhammas is to come to see the world as it really is, uninfluenced by projections or assumptions (`correct' or otherwise) about the way things are. > =============== [RE:] It is not an arbitrary assocation, even though it is a deluded one. > =============== J: I don't see the conceptualising of experienced dhammas in terms of conventional objects as necessarily involving delusion. I believe the enlightened being also conceptualises in terms of conventional objects (but does so without taking them as being real in the ultimate sense). > =============== > > Seriously though, did the Buddha teach his followers to break everyday objects down into paramattha dhammas? I don't think so. He taught them what paramattha dhammas are, and the development of the understanding of their characteristics. > > [RE:] He also talked about everyday life and looking at our lives according to principles of Dhamma. I know you disagree with that, but I feel obligated to repeat it. :-) > =============== J: It is the idea of "looking at our lives according to principles of Dhamma" that I question. Is this something you find expressed in the texts? > =============== > > J: Mental construction construes. It's object is concepts. Not all thinking of this kind is proliferation; the enlightened being also mentally construes based on objects experienced through the sense-doors. > > [RE:] But all concepts are based on proliferation or interpretation or construction of some kind based on dhammas that are experienced. It's impossible for a concept to arise and be experienced unless there are also namas present that are experiencing it or forming parts of the experience. So concepts although deemed to be unreal are part of a real process that construes them, and delusion takes place as a real process of dependent arising and as part of conditions, not out of nowhere and not arbitrarily but based on the understanding of the namas that are present and their given activities. > > In that sense, conceptual construction is real, even though concepts are not. > =============== J: Yes, but what you call "conceptual construction" is, in terms of paramattha dhammas, moments of mind-door consciousness of the kind we sometimes refer to as "thinking". Jon #114958 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:25 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) Hi Robert E (114021) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > =============== > > If you are talking about some other kind of 'seeing things more clearly', then what ensures cannot the mindfulness spoken of in the teachings. > > [RE:] It's all a continuum to me. I don't think the human being has some useless properties and then some totally different other transcendent potential that is unrelated. I see the ordinary moments of mindfulness being built upon through Dhamma and practice and getting gradually more skillful. I have a workingman's view of the Dhamma, not one where it is delivered in whole cloth at some mystical moment when the right understanding has suddenly been reached. > =============== J: But the so-called "ordinary" moments of mindfulness must still be actual mindfulness, qualitatively different from all other moments. Otherwise they could not be known as being worthy of development, different from wrong view masquerading as something special. > =============== > > Mindfulness can arise only when mindfulness that has been previously accumulated (but is otherwise latent) is conditioned to re-arise. > > [RE:] I have some disagreement with this mystical, absolutist model of what makes mindfulness arise. > =============== J: I guess that makes me a radical splittist with a mystical, absolutist model of the teachings ;-)) Seriously though, perhaps you could be more specific about your disagreement with what I said: whether it's the concept of previously accumulated mindfulness, or its role in the arising of mindfulness now. Are you, for example, suggesting that mindfulness of dhammas could arise in the absence of previously accumulated mindfulness of dhammas? > =============== > > This will occur at a time, and with an object, that is not of any person's choosing. > > [RE:] That I agree, but I still think it's more of a process and less of a rabbit popping out of a hat as you seem to describe. > =============== J: Not sure that I appreciate the significance of your comment "more of a process" in the context of mindfulness being something that occurs at a time, and with an object, that is not of any person's choosing. > =============== > [RE:] I love that sutta about not standing still and not pushing forward against the flood. I hope you'll linger here for a moment to give your interpretation using the example of "practice" above. > =============== J: Happy to linger for a minute ;-)) The conditions for the arising of path moments include the hearing of the teachings and appropriate reflection on what has been heard and understood, rather than the doing of certain things or "doing nothing". So there is no practice to be done (in the context of the development of the path, "practice" refers to actual path moments, not doing certain things in order to induce path moments to arise). Hoping this clarifies my earlier comment as requested. > =============== > > J: Yes, agreed. And all are potentially object of awareness/insight ;-)) > > [RE:] Agreed again. I am shocked by all this agreement. Well, the percentage is rising; conditions must be improving. Here's to more agreement ahead... >=============== J: Yes, that would be a pleasant change ;-)) Jon #114959 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:31 pm Subject: What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa Hi Robert E (114030) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: The idea of the Buddha pointing out *how the jhanas could be used to develop insight by suppressing defilements and cultivating mindfulness while the mind is deeply concentrated* is very much an interpretation of the suttas rather than a direct quote from them. > > [RE:] I would not agree. A straightforward reading shows him giving these instructions, not saying "since you're already doing this..." So I would say that your view that it is geared for those already versed in jhana is more of the "interpretive" view. My understanding is that the further the explanation is from the text, the more substantiating evidence is required. Doesn't that make sense? >=============== J: Sounds reasonable. But as I said before, I think we need to look at the actual text of the passage you have in mind if we are to take this any further. >=============== > > The orthodox Theravadan interpretation of suttas such as the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta is that the Buddha was explaining how, for the person developing jhana, insight could be developed at the same time (including insight having the just fallen away jhaana citta as object), with the further possibility that if enlightenment occurred it could be with jhana as basis (i.e., with the just fallen away jhana citta as object of insight immediately preceding the magga citta). > > [RE:] Could you perhaps give a cite where this orthodox interpretation is laid out? I would appreciate it. I have not seen this orthodox interpretation in any of the writings of the Theravadin teachers I have read, nor in the suttas themselves. > =============== J: OK, if you'll look for the sutta text that is the basis for your comment, "A straightforward reading shows him giving these instructions", I'll look for the commentarial explanation that gives the orthodox interpretation I mention above. Agreed? ;-)) > =============== > > But jhana as such was already known. > > [RE:] Yes, but "as such" does not define the Buddha's use of jhana as a base for insight. Buddha was nothing if not innovative to the nth degree. He transformed the yogic practices of his day and philosophy of anicca and Higher Self into a universe of no-self and nibbana, and the most systematic meditation system ever known. Hard to outdo thousands of years of yogis and Patanjali's forbears, but he did. > =============== J: The references to jhana as basis for insight mean that the (immediately past) jhana cittas are the object of insight. As I think you will appreciate, this is not a kind of 'practice' that can be deliberately undertaken. It happens or doesn't depending on the level of developed jhana and insight. It is not a case of jhana being 'used' for the purpose of developing insight. > =============== > > J: Well, yes, he did show where jhana fitted into the scheme of things. But the question is what he said and meant in that regard. > > [RE:] Yes, one could read what he did say to get some clues. He included jhana/concentration as a key item in the eightfold path, and he taught jhana in great detail. Must mean something... > =============== J: As previously explained, the path factors are indeed that: factors of the path. They are not given as practices to be undertaken, whether separately or in combination, as some kind of pre-path drills ;-)). > =============== > > J: Yes, correct conceptual understanding of dhammas is a prerequisite for the arising of awareness of/insight into dhammas. But the latter occurs at a time, and with an object, that is not of anyone's choosing. > > I don't think I ever said anyone could choose what arises. In fact, I've said the opposite over and over again. I think you don't believe I really mean it, because I think that meditation is a most important part of the path. > =============== J: From what I've seen of the use of the term, the purpose of meditation is generally to have more awareness (or to increase the likelihood of having awareness) at the time, and to see certain things (usually mental states) more clearly and/or to see them in the light of learnt aspects of the teachings such as impermanent or not-self. There is the choosing of time and place (meditation session). There is also the choosing of the object as well, in the sense that there is a focussing on certain things by virtue of the intended exclusion of other things such as sense-door experiences. >=============== > > J: The idea of 'conventional insight and mindfulness practice' is not one that had ever been canvassed in the Theravada texts, to my knowledge. A definite 'interpretation', I think ;-)). > > I may not be using the right words, but the idea is that one develops initial insight within the setting of the conventional world. Denying that this is where the path starts in my opinion would be inaccurate. >=============== J: Textual basis for the idea that `one develops initial insight within the setting of the conventional world'? Jon #114960 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:34 pm Subject: What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa Hi Robert E (114031) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > But I wouldn't say we can speak of a kusala cycle of mutual influence, in the sense that I take you to mean it here, at least not until insight has been developed to the higher levels. > > [RE:] How would the mutual influence come into play once insight was developed? > =============== J: When kusala of any kind has been developed to the stage of becoming a faculty (indriya) or power (bala), then it can arise at the slightest prompting, virtually 'at will'. The simile given in the texts is that of `like a strong man bending his arm'. > =============== > > Is it just me, or are there similarities with certain current-day interpretations of the teachings? Such as "Unleash the Power Within" (UPW). > > [RE:] My understanding of Buddhism has always been 'unleash the understanding' and I think most Buddhists still believe this. > =============== Any textual basis the idea that Dhamma is about 'unleashing the understanding'? Jon #114961 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream .. Hi Robert E (114047) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Well, I would say he is a relative beginner in terms of jhana attainment, but advanced when compared to the run-of-the-mill lay follower (the likes of you and me ;-)). > > [RE:] Me, I can understand. I am just a Dhamma baby. But you? That is interesting. You have been steeped in Dhamma for many many years. Why are you a beginner, and what would have to happen for you to be more advanced? Are you saying you are in an early life in the succession of lives necessary to accumulate advanced tendencies and understandings? > =============== J: A beginner in the sense that awareness of/insight into the true nature of dhammas is far from being well-developed. > =============== J: It's not a matter of just following the breath and sticking with it. What would be the kusala in that? > =============== Are you saying after so many years that you have spent on Dhamma study, that this person who can't concentrate from one breath to the next is more advanced than you? That is nonsensical. He is said to be "a beginner," period, not "an advanced person who is a beginner in samatha." That is really stretching it to the breaking point. > =============== J: See my recent post about the context of the reference to `beginner'. > =============== > > And yes, there is significance in the expression "who is of good birth". > > Yeah, well, your birth can't be that bad if you are successful in your professional career, have a happy Dhamma-based marriage and have had the good fortune to study Dhamma with K. Sujin all these years. I mean, it can't get much better than that can it? > =============== J: Yes, I am certainly one lucky guy in this lifetime. But it didn't happen by doing nothing, nor by doing any particular form of practice ;-)) > =============== > [RE:] What I am saying is that in allowing awareness to cultivate within the things of the world as they are actually experienced now allows one to have those moments of mundane insight, whereas holding the wrong view that the "right concept" is superior to a "real unanticipated moment of awareness now" will keep one from progressing. Maybe that is more clear...? > =============== J: There is no such thing in the teachings as awareness of conventional items such as computer or person; only of dhammas. > =============== [RE:] K. Sujin has said similar things in a different way, such as not to worry about what things are called or how they are supposed to work, what is experienced now? > =============== J: By `what is experienced now' I understand her to be referring to presently arising dhammas. Jon #114962 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:44 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) Hi Robert E (114047) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > My question would be, Where does the understanding of anicca and anatta come from in the first place? Without actual awareness of dhammas having been developed, it can only be an *idea* of what these terms mean, rather than an *experienced* understanding of them. > > [RE:] What is the experience of mundane insight prior to enlightenment which allows for actual direct seeing? What is the mundane seeing that is free of concept in your understanding? > =============== J: The seeing of dhammas as they truly are (what you call actual direct seeing) is what is meant by mundane insight. Since it is direct seeing (panna experiencing a dhamma), it is free of concept. The activity of 'seeing ordinary objects and life-situations clearly, and applying the understanding of anicca and anatta to them' is the imposing of a learnt conceptual idea onto other concepts. Such a practice could never lead to seeing dhammas as they truly are, because it is bound up with an imperfect view of things. > =============== > > In the suttas, the terms anicca and anatta are invariably linked to the direct experience of dhammas. They are characteristics/aspects that are to be experienced by panna, rather than something to be conceptualised about and then 'applied' (whether to dhammas or to conventional objects). > > [RE:] It is conceptualization that I am trying to get away from here, advocating looking now at what appears now. > =============== J: It is by virtue of seeing dhammas as they truly are that the characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anatta come to be known. At such moments of seeing/panna, there is no conceptualisation. But the deliberate action of 'looking at' dhammas is not one of the conditions for that direct seeing to arise. > =============== > > J: The starting point must be that what is experienced by hearing consciousness is just sound/audible object. > > That can only take place if one attends the sound experience now. > =============== J: The attending to the sound being experienced now is something that is taking place regardless of whether there is the understanding of it as such. > =============== [RE:] At one moment one may be "listening to the music," at the next they may understand that it is "audible object." There is no break in listening, just in understanding. > =============== J: To my understanding, it is not a matter of seeing music as mere audible object (that is to say, of applying intellectual understanding to concepts), but of audible object being seen as it truly is by awareness/insight that arises in its own good time, conditioned by hearing and reflecting on the teachings. > =============== > > The perception/recognition of a particular persons' voice, meaning of words spoken, etc, occurs subsequent to those moments of hearing consciousness, and is the work of the multiple mind-door processes that follow each moment of sense-door experience. > > [RE:] And those represent real moments of real namas. To see what is taking place now, one must see the namas and rupas now, not some other ones that take their place. Only concept has to be removed, not the experience. > =============== J: The problem is not the concepts or the conceptualising, but the lack of panna that sees things as they truly are: dhammas as dhammas (and concepts as concepts). > =============== > [RE:] Well that's the question: how does one attend the world of actual current [conventional] experience? That's what we experience all the time, so what to make of that? See what it is now, no? If one looked at current experience, say "keyboard," one would see that actually seeing object + concept is actually arising. Isn't that true? > =============== J: Looking at (focusing on) keyboard in order to see visible object is not the teaching of the Buddha (as I understand it). > =============== > > J: Your continuum view of the development of insight seems to be based on the idea that it would allow quicker attainment of enlightenment ;-)) > > [RE:] That's an assumption. Not necessarily quicker, but instead of casting aside current experience, one would attend it and see it for what it is now. I guess I'm just an inveterate continuumist. :-) >=============== J: ;-)) Jon #114963 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:49 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa Hi Robert E (114061) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: That assumes there is something to be known about concepts ;-)) > > [RE:] Well there is - that they are concepts. If one does not identify concepts as concepts where exactly would that leave one? Aren't you knowing something about them right now as you write about them? >=============== J: I'm all for concepts being known as concepts, or at least not taken for dhammas, but I think this is knowledge that comes from the understanding of dhammas as dhammas, not from studying concepts/conventional objects. >=============== > > J: Well, dhammas are always associated with other dhammas. But what makes a dhamma a dhamma is that each dhamma of its kind has a unique characteristic, discernable by panna, that distinguishes it from all other kinds of dhammas. > > [RE:] It is a point of interest whether such objective thingy-ness really arises with such mechanical clarity. Since none of us have seen one with such clarity [I assume] it is just theoretical. > =============== J: Right, but clarifying one's intellectual/theoretical understanding of things is definitely helpful. > =============== > > And when a dhamma is the object of consciousness-with-panna, it is not intermingled with other dhammas. So in that sense I would say that dhammas can indeed be seen in their 'pure form'. > > [RE:] I think that's a theory rather than a verified reality. > =============== J: Of course it's theoretical (theoretical understanding is all that can be discussed). But are you suggesting that awareness does not see dhammas as they really are, individually? > =============== > > J: Yes, pariyatti is understanding *about* dhammas, but patipatti (awareness/insight) is understanding *of* dhammas by direct experience. If this were not possible for the worldling, the path could not be developed. > > [RE:] I agree direct experience can be developed through awareness, but exactly what that experience is and whether it arises in crystalline isolation of each pristine dhamma with its little function being purely carried out, is a matter of conjecture, and I don't see why that is the way it has to work in order for there to be insight into the nature of dhammas. > =============== J: To my understanding, direct understanding of dhammas involves the direct understanding of individual dhammas, that is to say, one dhamma at a time (although not one moment of one dhamma). If dhammas are not seen individually, then what exactly is the function of awareness? (Less fuzzy concepts, perhaps?) > =============== [RE:] That seems like a Platonic ideal of dhammas. It is possible that such a model is confusing the explanation of dhammas with the way in which they actually occur. > =============== J: Not sure what you're suggesting here. Could you be more specific? Obviously, at a moment of, say, seeing, both seeing consciousness and visible object are arising (occurring) contemporaneously. But only one or other of those dhammas can be the object of awareness. > =============== > > J: What you call 'looking at our experience as namas and rupas' is not the same thing as direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma as I understand that expression. It is imposing a view or idea of what namas and rupas are onto the present moment. As you say, it is just adding concept to perception. In essence it is just a kind of 'thinking about'. > > [RE:] I was describing pariyatti in my own way. How would you describe the process of pariyatti, understanding dhammas correctly and seeing that they are the constituents of reality? > =============== J: I think I see now what you were getting at. You were saying that we can consider whether our present experience is consistent with the explanation in the teachings of the world as mere momentary dhammas (namas and rupas). Jon #114964 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon May 9, 2011 10:52 pm Subject: Re: notes from KK ( thinking about dhammas vs knowing them) Hi Phil (114070) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again Jon and all > > I found that passage: > .............. > Ivan: If there is dosa, and there is thinking that it's just dosa rising and falling away, it's just thinking. > > Jon: It's akusala. > ............... > Ph: Well, I guess it's akusala in the sense that it is rooted in lobha? But I would say then that all of our dhamma reflections are therefore akusala, except for some very minute openings, very rare, in the solid dome of lobha, that table with the minute spaces. I find this hard to accept. If reflecting that dosa is rising and falling away is akusala, there is no hope for understanding to develop. (Unless understanding can be condition by akusala reflection, doesn't seem likely...) > =============== J: If I remember correctly, my comment was made in the context of a remark of Ivan's, made just before the part you've quoted, which I took at the time as implying selection of the object (in this case, dosa). I was not meaning to say that thinking of presently arising dosa as just dosa must necessarily be akusala. > =============== > > And Jon, I will find it again, but I was listening to a very good talk where you, Nina, Sarah, Ivan and A.Sujin and others were talking about dosa, that if we think about dosa being conditioned, if there is thinking about such a characteristic of dosa, it is akusala. I will have to find that again, but I was confused, it sounded contrary to what is always said about intellectual understanding, we have to understand intellectually, and that means thinking about characteristics surely. >=============== J: Yes, intellectual understanding would involve thinking about the characteristics of dhammas. Jon #114965 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 1:44 am Subject: Path is what should be done for its result Dear Jon, all, >J: To my understanding, kayagatasati involves the seeing of dhammas >asdhammas/dhatus. There is nothing `conventional' about it ;-)) Your understanding doesn't match what the suttas or even commentaries say. >J: Firstly, seeing, hearing, etc. all occur without any conscious or >deliberate effort on our part. But the path is about developing the wholesome qualities of the mind. The path does require deliberate effort, that is why it is hard to do. (SN 2.6, 2.15, 6.1, 38.16 etc). There is nothing natural in the path. Water naturally flows only downwards. The defilements will sweep someone who doesn't put up a fight and resist them. This is perhaps a reason for so many warrior similes (ex: AN5.75) that the Buddha has used. A warrior is someone who fights something, he doesn't comply with what is. If one should not do anything so as to not develop self view (this is not taught in the suttas, the commentaries or the Abh), then one should drop like a lifeless log right now. But since this doesn't occur, and even Arahants are capable of intentional action - I hope that you see how silly this idea is. The Buddha lived for 45 years after his Awakening, he was able to refute his opponents, and build the most popular (at that time) religion in India. He was fully able to organize his monastic order. He was not a senseless log that doesn't do anything (because "doing requires Self"). The path is all about effort, skillful effort. There is a difference between proper and improper effort, proper and improper desire. The path requires proper desire, because without it, you would not put in the required effort (SN 51.15). When one has reached the destination, that desire is no longer needed and is abandoned. But it is abandoned only when it has outlived its use, not before. You use the tool, and when it has done its job, you put it back in the toolbox. The path is the way there, it is not the goal. Wisdom is not found in merely holding right theory (which you have either right or wrong). If it was merely knowing the right thing, then many of us would be fully Awakened. But it goes much deeper than that. It requires that one does the right thing, no matter how hard. If one would really know that "such and such is akusala", then why would one engage in it? Buddha has taught that effort that could be required on the level of: "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." - AN 6.20 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html By not resisting, one is not doing first 2 parts of right effort. The fact that the path *is* hard to do, it tells us that it is not about passively waiting for miracle to happen. Miracles happen for those who work for them, and plant the causes. Sometimes too much rationalization (which for must of us is simply an expression of kilesas) can be the means by which they have a picnic with us. It is possible to take advance concepts (such as no-Self, not taught by the Buddha) and use them for unwholesome purposes: Ex: "I have the desire to do bad but as there is no control..." - and use this intellectual justification to engage in it. The Buddha called such a person to be "senseless and immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving" -MN109 ""It's possible that a senseless person immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving might think that he could outsmart the Teacher's message in this way: 'So form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html With best wishes, Alex Friend Sariputta, what is difficult to do in this Dhamma and Discipline? Going forth, friend, is difficult to do in this Dhamma and Discipline. What, friend, is difficult to do by one who has gone forth? To find delight, friend, is difficult to do by one who has gone forth. What, friend, is difficult to do by one who has found delight? Practice in accordance with the Dhamma, friend, is difficult to do by one who has found delight. But, friend, if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would it take him long to become an arahant? Not long, friend. - SN38.16 Difficult to Do "They do even what is hard to do, (O Kamada, said the Blessed One), The trainees composed in virtue, steadfast... "They gain even what is hard to gain, (O Kamada, said the Blessed One), Who delight in calming the mind, Whose minds, day and night, Find delight in meditation." - SN2.6 "Crosses the flood so hard to cross." SN 2.15(5) ""Enough now with teaching this That even I found hard to reach; This Dhamma is not easily understood" - SN 6.1 All Bhikkhu Bodhi Transl. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vayamo/ #114966 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 7:28 am Subject: Are space kasina and conscious kasina samatha or vipassana? Hello all, Are space kasina and conscious kasina samatha or vipassana? With metta, Alex #114967 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 4-mei-2011, om 23:03 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > . I really enjoyed the quotes from commentary that you gave here, > > but they do not exactly explain how a citta can carry something > > that is "latent." The mechanism is there, but not the "storage > > container." > ------- > N: Perhaps it helps to consider the first moment of our life, the > rebirth-consciousness. Why are we born with different inclinations, > why is there such a great variety of humans, and other beings? It > must come from the past. The past conditions the present. > Kamma and defilements have been accumulated and thus there are > conditions for rebirth. > > The following texts of the Visuddhimagga deal with kamma that > produces rebirth-consciousness, kamma and vipaaka. But these texts > also help us to understand that accumulated good and bad inclinations > of the past also play their part as conditions in the present life. > > Text Vis.Ch XVII, 167: And with a stream of continuity there is > neither identity nor > otherness. Interesting statement - it seems to suggest that the alternative to self-view is not non-self, but something inbetween... > --------- > N: The Tiika explains that there is no absolute identity with a > stream of continuity, because there is the manifestation of another > citta. > Cittas succeed one another, they arise in continuity, and this is > also the case when the dying-consciousness falls away and is > immediately succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness. The rebirth- > consciousness is another citta, arising in a new life. > The Tiika explains that there is also no absolute otherness because > of the continuous stream of cittas (santaanabandhato), just as in the > case of the flames of a fire that arise from moment to moment in one > continuity. So, though there is no continuousness of a citta, in the sense that a single citta only lasts a moment and then is replaced; there is continuity in the sense that there is a continuous stream of cittas, and one is connected to the next. One wouldn't be able to separate the flames of a fire; yet they are not the same from one moment to the next. > -------- > Text Vis: For if there were absolute identity in a stream of > continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if > there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the > milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. I appreciate this explanation. It makes clear that the cittas are not separate from each other, in the sense that they do carry on the accumulated action or tendency that has been established by the last, and so there is both individual citta and streams of citta. It reminds me of the individual frames of a film, which can be seen separately, but when seen together show a progression of action. > ---------- > N: The Tiika explains as to the expression ` For if there were > absolute identity in a stream of continuity', that in that case > diversity would not be assumed which is wrong. .... > -------------- > N: Kamma of the past is accumulated from moment to moment so that it > can produce the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. Also good and > bad inclinations of the past are accumulated from moment to moment so > that they have the opportunity to condition the arising of kusala > cittas and akusala cittas in the next life. So long as we are in the > cycle there is an unbroken continuity of cittas that arise in > succession. > > To return to your question: why citta can carry something that is > latent. Each citta is succeeded by a following citta and thus > accumulations go on in the stream of life. But it is not so that > citta 'carries' something. Which citta? It is gone already. Yes, I understand. It still doesn't explain how a citta can have, no less pass on, an accumulated property or a tendency, in exact detail. But I understand the point of how it takes place on a momentary basis only, and is then gone. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114968 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 10:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Even a sotapanna will not "engage in the 'false view' of beings", let alone the Buddha!! When there is thinking about beings, even if it is (for the sotapanna, not for the Buddha!) with attachment, there cannot be any 'false view' of any kind. Even now, when we think about people, there doesn't need to be any 'false view'. It is not the concepts that are the problem, but the ditthi which arises with the thinking which is the 'false view'. Thanks for all the explanations. I follow them one by one, but I still can't get the whole thing to add up. There is conceptual view of beings, which I guess doesn't have to be a "false view," then there is a "false view" of beings, among which I guess is "self view" among others. If that is right that is a beginning, but I don't quite get the distinctions between conceptual thinking about beings that does not have false view, false view, and self view and how they all hang together on the continuum of perceptions and views. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #114969 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > In addition, the Buddha and those ariyans who attained stages of enlightenment based on (mundane) jhana, are able to 'dwell in fruition' (phala samapatti), experiencing nibbana again and again. Anagamis and arahats may also 'dwell in cessation (nirodha samapatthi). At these times, according to pre-set time periods, no cittas arise. Thanks, this is very much in the direction my question was headed. Just an idea of what the life of the cittas are when one is 'out of the net.' ... > S: I hope that what I wrote above explained the 'hanging out:-)) a little. What else was there to do but give the tired old body a break:-)) > > On the earlier points about the experiencing of concepts, let me know if there are still any qus. I see this as more important and relevant now than exactly why the Buddha 'hung out':-) Well, it is more clear, understanding that even arahats would experience concepts and paramatha dhammas depending on various conditions, but without any attachment or wrong view. I liked the example of the arahat who lived a long lay life, recognizing her accumulations for such. However, I'm still a little unclear about the different configurations of concepts and views, as reflected in my last post to your part 1. But I appreciate the input! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114970 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 10:19 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) Hi Jon. Yikes - 7 posts in a row? Thank you for the effort. I will try to respond in due course. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > [J:] But this doesn't mean that there is something called a computer monitor to begin with that 'breaks down' into visible object. > > > > [RE:] I didn't actually say that. I said the concept is formed on the basis of visible object + interpretation or conceptualization. There is no "computer monitor" per se, but there is the collection of visible moments and interpretations that give rise to the concept of computer monitor. In that sense they are intimately related. Even though one does not equal the other, the reality obscured by the concept is the actuality of visible object-moments, interspersed with other namas. > > =============== > > J: The object of awareness/insight is a dhamma, not a process. Well, if one is able to see that the concept that is arising is unreal, and is able to see what dhammas are occurring that are real, the insight may be in terms of the dhammas, but there is also then an understanding that the concept is not real. What do you call that? > > =============== > > > That is a projection or assumption based on how we think about the world conventionally. It's not how the world is actually experienced, in absolute terms. > > > > [RE:] I agree, but I think it's important that the projection or assumption is a projection of what we think is there when we experience certain actual dhammas. > > =============== > > J: The purpose of developing awareness of dhammas is to come to see the world as it really is, uninfluenced by projections or assumptions (`correct' or otherwise) about the way things are. Still, concepts continue to arise, so that development of "uninfluence" [I know that's not a word] would both be seeing that the dhammas are real and that the concepts are not. Yes? May not be insight, but there is something going on in relation to concepts to allow them to no longer be construed as real. > > =============== > [RE:] It is not an arbitrary assocation, even though it is a deluded one. > > =============== > > J: I don't see the conceptualising of experienced dhammas in terms of conventional objects as necessarily involving delusion. I believe the enlightened being also conceptualises in terms of conventional objects (but does so without taking them as being real in the ultimate sense). Well that would make sense to me. No problem there. > > =============== > > > Seriously though, did the Buddha teach his followers to break everyday objects down into paramattha dhammas? I don't think so. He taught them what paramattha dhammas are, and the development of the understanding of their characteristics. > > > > [RE:] He also talked about everyday life and looking at our lives according to principles of Dhamma. I know you disagree with that, but I feel obligated to repeat it. :-) > > =============== > > J: It is the idea of "looking at our lives according to principles of Dhamma" that I question. Is this something you find expressed in the texts? Yes, and I think I have quoted such before, but not sure I can find anything at the moment. I will hunt around. I should have better files... What I generally mean are all the various admonitions and prohibitions which are often expressed in terms of everyday activities and abstentions, and related to the mundane path factors, such as right action, livelihood, etc. > > =============== > > > J: Mental construction construes. It's object is concepts. Not all thinking of this kind is proliferation; the enlightened being also mentally construes based on objects experienced through the sense-doors. > > > > [RE:] But all concepts are based on proliferation or interpretation or construction of some kind based on dhammas that are experienced. It's impossible for a concept to arise and be experienced unless there are also namas present that are experiencing it or forming parts of the experience. So concepts although deemed to be unreal are part of a real process that construes them, and delusion takes place as a real process of dependent arising and as part of conditions, not out of nowhere and not arbitrarily but based on the understanding of the namas that are present and their given activities. > > > > In that sense, conceptual construction is real, even though concepts are not. > > =============== > > J: Yes, but what you call "conceptual construction" is, in terms of paramattha dhammas, moments of mind-door consciousness of the kind we sometimes refer to as "thinking". I don't disagree with that; just trying to establish that it's based on what is real, even though a false interpretation of such. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114971 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 10:40 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: But the so-called "ordinary" moments of mindfulness must still be actual mindfulness, qualitatively different from all other moments. I think I'm going to have to agree that any kind of genuine mindfulness will have to be "actual mindfulness." I guess the question is what is the level of seeing and understanding that has to be developed for such to take place. I am thinking that one can be still in a pretty ordinary state of mind but with some development of understanding and some development of concentration and clear seeing that would allow for real moments of mindfulness to arise and be recognized, that's all. > Otherwise they could not be known as being worthy of development, different from wrong view masquerading as something special. > > > =============== > > > Mindfulness can arise only when mindfulness that has been previously accumulated (but is otherwise latent) is conditioned to re-arise. > > > > [RE:] I have some disagreement with this mystical, absolutist model of what makes mindfulness arise. > > =============== > > J: I guess that makes me a radical splittist with a mystical, absolutist model of the teachings ;-)) The idea that kusala breeds kusala, and mindfulness breeds mindfulness, has a little bit of infinite regress to it. There have to be moments that arise that happen out of actually seeing at the moment - that moment that everyone is so fond of - not just out of the re-emergence of previous accumulations. That is my hesitation to accept the Absolutist Radical Splittist view; otherwise it would be very appealing [like Plato.] :-) > Seriously though, perhaps you could be more specific about your disagreement with what I said: whether it's the concept of previously accumulated mindfulness, or its role in the arising of mindfulness now. You are right on track, as you have almost repeated what I said above before I read this. I think you are getting a bit psychic... > Are you, for example, suggesting that mindfulness of dhammas could arise in the absence of previously accumulated mindfulness of dhammas? I may actually be suggesting that, just as learning to walk arises from a series of "almost-walkings," rather than from "previously well-accomplished" walkings, there is development rather than wholly-formed moments of total mindfulness floating around which lead to further ones at unspecified times of arising. I have a more mundane view of development, and don't adhere to the idea that there is a radical wholly-formed arising of an ideal moment of sati that somehow gets produced - don't see how it would. As I imply above, mindfulness is seeing clearly and that is something that is developed and perfected through developmental stages. I see that in most Buddhist practice, and I see that in the stages outlined in the Visuddhimagga and various suttas, so it doesn't seem strange to me at all. It also fits with other developmental experiences we have, such as learning anything at all. We learn a bit at a time and eventually piece together the whole. The idea that mindfulness moments - or kusala moments - are "perfect" little units and arise as "wholes" which then lead to further "perfect wholes" arising later seems like an idealistic view of development that is Platonic [to use one popular example] in nature. I don't see the basis for thinking that things develop that way, in perfect jumps, rather than in gradual steps. I don't see it in the Dhamma, and don't understand why it is or should be so. It doesn't seem necessary to me at all in order to understand the progression of insight and understanding that mark the path. I guess that makes me a radical non-splittist gradual developmental mergist, but that's the way it is. :-) > > =============== > > > This will occur at a time, and with an object, that is not of any person's choosing. > > > > [RE:] That I agree, but I still think it's more of a process and less of a rabbit popping out of a hat as you seem to describe. > > =============== > > J: Not sure that I appreciate the significance of your comment "more of a process" in the context of mindfulness being something that occurs at a time, and with an object, that is not of any person's choosing. I don't see it as being an on/off switch that has perfect on one side and not-at-all on the other side, but something more gradual and developmental. You see black and white with absolute polarization between the two, I see gray and gradations of development. I don't believe in absolute mindfulness or absolute kusala, but with degrees and developments. So I guess I'm not too much in the "paramatha" club of absolute splittist perfection. > > =============== > > [RE:] I love that sutta about not standing still and not pushing forward against the flood. I hope you'll linger here for a moment to give your interpretation using the example of "practice" above. > > =============== > > J: Happy to linger for a minute ;-)) > > The conditions for the arising of path moments include the hearing of the teachings and appropriate reflection on what has been heard and understood, rather than the doing of certain things or "doing nothing". So when you say "include" you mean "only?" It sounds like you exclude anything *but* "the hearing of the teachings and appropriate reflection on what has been heard and understood." I will continue to disagree that the path arises by itself from nothing other than right understanding, and that no other activities or path factors come into play except as derivatives of Dhamma study. That is too extreme of radical splittism for me. > So there is no practice to be done (in the context of the development of the path, "practice" refers to actual path moments, not doing certain things in order to induce path moments to arise). > > Hoping this clarifies my earlier comment as requested. Yes, it clarifies, and I disagree, as usual. The idea that absolute non-activity [as regards the path] is necessary to avoid self-view I think is pretty extreme, and not what the Buddha appears to say anywhere, ever, in any sutta, as far as I know. > > =============== > > > J: Yes, agreed. And all are potentially object of awareness/insight ;-)) > > > > [RE:] Agreed again. I am shocked by all this agreement. Well, the percentage is rising; conditions must be improving. Here's to more agreement ahead... > >=============== > > J: Yes, that would be a pleasant change ;-)) I think we're back on a down-slope, but it's all just arising moments... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114972 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 11:41 am Subject: Rejoicing Joy! Friends: Mutual Joy cures all vicious Envy and Jealousy! The dear companion can be the proximate cause for Mutual Joy, where one rejoices in another being's success... One thus rejoicing in others fortune is called a 'boon companion', for he is constantly glad: He laughs first and speaks afterward! So he should be the first to be pervaded with gladness. Or on seeing a dear person being happy, cheerful and glad, mutual joy can be aroused thus: 'See this being is indeed glad! How good, how excellent!' Just as one would be glad at seeing a dear and beloved person very happy, exactly so does one pervade all other beings in all directions with mutual joy... Rejoicing mutual joy can also be aroused by remembering other's happiness in the past and recollecting the elated joy aspect in this way: 'In the past he had great wealth, a great following and he was always glad'. Or mutual joy can be aroused by apprehending the future glad aspect of his in this way: 'In the future he will again enjoy similar success and will go about in gold palanquins, on the backs of elephants or on horseback'. Having thus aroused mutual joy regarding a dear person, one can then direct the very same feeling successively towards a neutral one, and gradually towards any hostile person. Vbh 274, Vism I 316 Comments: Mutual joy causes Contentment! No mutual joy thus means Discontentment! Therefore: If being generally dissatisfied, then be happy over others gains ;-) Secondly: Mutual joy causes all envy & jealousy to evaporate into equanimity! <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114973 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses Hi Jon, > J: Firstly, seeing, hearing, etc. all occur without any conscious or deliberate effort on our part. > > Secondly, some actions are done because of a conscious or deliberate effort on our part, while other things are done reflexively, without any apparent conscious effort. An example of the latter would be the thinking that goes on throughout the day as we live our ordinary daily life. L: Yes but even it seems that some actions or thinkings are done deliberately, this is only conditioned element. No choosing at all. For example, when I wonder to say good morning to someone or not, and I said it, this was conditioned. It's gone now. All such deliberate actions they are all conditioned. I was wondering on sanjasankharapapanca. This is the whole stream of thinking that happens? Cause one thought, this condition another. And when thinking on control, this seems to be without any possiblility to get out of such thinking. Probably it needs to burn out. And no our purposful effort to get out from such kind of thoughts as thinking on control or efforts without real effort to stop it. Best wishes Lukas #114974 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 10, 2011 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Are space kasina and conscious kasina samatha or vipassana? Dear Alex, Op 9-mei-2011, om 23:28 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Are space kasina and conscious kasina samatha or vipassana? ------ Space kasina: in samatha. The object is a concept of space. Conscious kasina? I do not know this. Perhaps you can give the Pali. Nina. #114975 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 10, 2011 5:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concep... Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 5/9/2011 8:02:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Even a sotapanna will not "engage in the 'false view' of beings", let alone the Buddha!! When there is thinking about beings, even if it is (for the sotapanna, not for the Buddha!) with attachment, there cannot be any 'false view' of any kind. Even now, when we think about people, there doesn't need to be any 'false view'. It is not the concepts that are the problem, but the ditthi which arises with the thinking which is the 'false view'. Thanks for all the explanations. I follow them one by one, but I still can't get the whole thing to add up. There is conceptual view of beings, which I guess doesn't have to be a "false view," then there is a "false view" of beings, among which I guess is "self view" among others. If that is right that is a beginning, but I don't quite get the distinctions between conceptual thinking about beings that does not have false view, false view, and self view and how they all hang together on the continuum of perceptions and views. Best, Robert E. ==================================== My take is as follows: Consider a whirlpool in a river. It can be conceptually separated off from the river-as-a-whole due to its functioning as a distinguishable phenomenon. However, there are the following facts: 1) It is not an individual thing, for it is merely an aggregate of simpler elements of water and other things interrelated in a particular manner and acting in concert, and simply thought of as an individual thing, 2) It has no precise boundaries, beginnings, and endings, and is hence "ungraspable," and 3) It does not exist apart, separate from, and independent of, the rest of the river, being, in fact, merely an inseparable aspect of the river. The bottom line is that "a whirlpool in a river" is not in reality an individual or separate phenomenon. With metta, Howard The Unreal and the Real /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #114976 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue May 10, 2011 10:30 pm Subject: Re: Tanha bhava vs. aggregates of clinging vs. lobha (Jon) Hi Phil (114337) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon > ... > Yesterday I heard a discussion on tanha bhava, you were having trouble understanding how it could be arising all thetime, even when we are not aware of it, which I think is what A. Sujin was saying. Could I ask you to share what your current thoughts are on that, > =============== J: Thanks for the question, and apologies for the delay in replying. I understand bhava tanha ('clinging to becoming') to refer to the wish for life to go on. This is different from attachment to people and things, or ideas about this or that (although as forms of clinging, they share a common characteristic). I'm afraid I don't recall the particular conversation, so I can't say what A Sujin may have been saying. I suspect bhava tanha is more common than we might think. Any time we are OK with things (happy to be alive!), there would probably be bhava tanha of some level or another. > =============== and on how tanha bhava differs from clinging to khandas or just plain lobha. Actually, I will add what is the difference between tanha bhava, uppatanha khandas ( I think that is what I heard, aggregates of clinging?) and just plain lobha. > =============== Lobha can have different kinds of objects. For example, there can be clinging to sense-objects, to feeling, to ideas/views, to existence (becoming). The upadana khandhas are those khandhas that are capable of being clung to. This means all khandhas other than the enlightenment consciousnesses (magga and phala). Hoping this helps clarify. Jon #114977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 11, 2011 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] coneptual view of beings. was: part 1 to Ken O Dear Rob E: > R: There is conceptual view of beings, > which I guess doesn't have to be a "false view," then there is a > "false view" > of beings, among which I guess is "self view" among others. If that is > right that is a beginning, but I don't quite get the distinctions > between > conceptual thinking about beings that does not have false view, > false view, and > self view and how they all hang together on the continuum of > perceptions > and views. ------- N: It is not so complicated. The Buddha thought of Saariputta or other beings, without wrong view of beings who exist. He realized: there are only five khandhas that arise and fall away. For us difficult to apply this, when looking at a dear person. We forget that there are only six worlds, appearing one at a time. We get lost in stories about people who exist, who are there for us. ------ Nina. #114978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 11, 2011 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated Dear Rob E, Op 10-mei-2011, om 1:55 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Interesting statement - it seems to suggest that the alternative to > self-view is not non-self, but something inbetween... ------ N: That could not be. No in-betweens! ------- > > > R: So, though there is no continuousness of a citta, in the sense > that a single citta only lasts a moment and then is replaced; there > is continuity in the sense that there is a continuous stream of > cittas, and one is connected to the next. One wouldn't be able to > separate the flames of a fire; yet they are not the same from one > moment to the next > .--------- N: Yes. > > . So long as we are in the > > cycle there is an unbroken continuity of cittas that arise in > > succession. > > > > To return to your question: why citta can carry something that is > > latent. Each citta is succeeded by a following citta and thus > > accumulations go on in the stream of life. But it is not so that > > citta 'carries' something. Which citta? It is gone already. ------- > > > R: Yes, I understand. It still doesn't explain how a citta can > have, no less pass on, an accumulated property or a tendency, in > exact detail. But I understand the point of how it takes place on a > momentary basis only, and is then gone. ------- N: We cannot know all this in exact detail, and why should we? By knowing that there are accumulated inclinations that play their part in our life we begin to see what it means that whatever is experienced at this moment is a conditioned dhamma. The aim of all this study is having less clinging to a self. -------- Nina. > #114979 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed May 11, 2011 11:58 am Subject: Re: How is wisdom accumulated Hi Nina, Rob E and All, --------------- <. . .> > R: Yes, I understand. It still doesn't explain how a citta can > have, no less pass on, an accumulated property or a tendency, in > exact detail. But I understand the point of how it takes place on a > momentary basis only, and is then gone. ------- N: We cannot know all this in exact detail, and why should we? By knowing that there are accumulated inclinations that play their part in our life we begin to see what it means that whatever is experienced at this moment is a conditioned dhamma. The aim of all this study is having less clinging to a self. -------------- KH: I think there is a reason the Dhamma hasn't tried to explain "latent" or "accumulated" in any more detail than it has. We already know from conventional reality that we can be (for example) happy one minute and sad the next. When we are happy there are accumulations for sadness - and vice versa. We already know that sort of thing, and therefore there is no need for further explanation. The Dhamma just has to explain that accumulations apply citta, not to a permanent self. That's the part we don't already know. Ken H #114980 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed May 11, 2011 1:29 pm Subject: What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114030) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: The idea of the Buddha pointing out *how the jhanas could be used to develop insight by suppressing defilements and cultivating mindfulness while the mind is deeply concentrated* is very much an interpretation of the suttas rather than a direct quote from them. > > > > [RE:] I would not agree. A straightforward reading shows him giving these instructions, not saying "since you're already doing this..." So I would say that your view that it is geared for those already versed in jhana is more of the "interpretive" view. My understanding is that the further the explanation is from the text, the more substantiating evidence is required. Doesn't that make sense? > >=============== > > J: Sounds reasonable. But as I said before, I think we need to look at the actual text of the passage you have in mind if we are to take this any further. > > >=============== > > > The orthodox Theravadan interpretation of suttas such as the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta is that the Buddha was explaining how, for the person developing jhana, insight could be developed at the same time (including insight having the just fallen away jhaana citta as object), with the further possibility that if enlightenment occurred it could be with jhana as basis (i.e., with the just fallen away jhana citta as object of insight immediately preceding the magga citta). > > > > [RE:] Could you perhaps give a cite where this orthodox interpretation is laid out? I would appreciate it. I have not seen this orthodox interpretation in any of the writings of the Theravadin teachers I have read, nor in the suttas themselves. > > =============== > > J: OK, if you'll look for the sutta text that is the basis for your comment, "A straightforward reading shows him giving these instructions", I'll look for the commentarial explanation that gives the orthodox interpretation I mention above. Agreed? ;-)) Well, the sutta below suggests that one must establish the jhanas in order to reach enlightenment, and then gives the example of one who does so. a/ it establishes the jhanas as an absolutely essential part of the path to enlightenment, and b/ it gives the equivalent of an admonition and instruction about what order of practice to follow to get there: Anguttara Nikaya IX.36 Jhana Sutta Mental Absorption http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ati_website/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.ht\ ml "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' Note that Buddha does not just say "One versed in jhana can make it an object of insight." In fact he never says this. Instead he says: I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' He uses the word "depends on," establishing that it is absolutely necessary and that the result in question cannot occur without this. And he traces the entire passage from delusion to enlightenment through the development of the jhanas and then the formless attainments, in a specific order, which is also the order that he followed both in reaching enlightenment and in completing his parinibbana. > > =============== > > > But jhana as such was already known. > > > > [RE:] Yes, but "as such" does not define the Buddha's use of jhana as a base for insight. Buddha was nothing if not innovative to the nth degree. He transformed the yogic practices of his day and philosophy of anicca and Higher Self into a universe of no-self and nibbana, and the most systematic meditation system ever known. Hard to outdo thousands of years of yogis and Patanjali's forbears, but he did. > > =============== > > J: The references to jhana as basis for insight mean that the (immediately past) jhana cittas are the object of insight. As I think you will appreciate, this is not a kind of 'practice' that can be deliberately undertaken. No, I do not agree with that at all. Of course it is the result of serious and sustained practice. It will not happen by pure happenstance, nor by accidental arising of samatha here and there in the past. One is instructed to enter the jhanas and then to entertain them in the way described as objects of insight. > It happens or doesn't depending on the level of developed jhana and insight. It is not a case of jhana being 'used' for the purpose of developing insight. And how is jhana developed to that point? That is the part you tend to leave out. It is developed through sustained and purposeful practice, and will not develop any other way, as it is a highly specialized technical state. > > =============== > > > J: Well, yes, he did show where jhana fitted into the scheme of things. But the question is what he said and meant in that regard. > > > > [RE:] Yes, one could read what he did say to get some clues. He included jhana/concentration as a key item in the eightfold path, and he taught jhana in great detail. Must mean something... > > =============== > > J: As previously explained, the path factors are indeed that: factors of the path. They are not given as practices to be undertaken, whether separately or in combination, as some kind of pre-path drills ;-)). Actually they are, and if you read the Jhana Sutta cited above you will see the generic example of a monk who cultivates each jhana in order towards and culminating in enlightenment. > > =============== > > > J: Yes, correct conceptual understanding of dhammas is a prerequisite for the arising of awareness of/insight into dhammas. But the latter occurs at a time, and with an object, that is not of anyone's choosing. > > > > I don't think I ever said anyone could choose what arises. In fact, I've said the opposite over and over again. I think you don't believe I really mean it, because I think that meditation is a most important part of the path. > > =============== > > J: From what I've seen of the use of the term, the purpose of meditation is generally to have more awareness (or to increase the likelihood of having awareness) at the time, and to see certain things (usually mental states) more clearly and/or to see them in the light of learnt aspects of the teachings such as impermanent or not-self. > > There is the choosing of time and place (meditation session). There is also the choosing of the object as well, in the sense that there is a focussing on certain things by virtue of the intended exclusion of other things such as sense-door experiences. > > >=============== > > > J: The idea of 'conventional insight and mindfulness practice' is not one that had ever been canvassed in the Theravada texts, to my knowledge. A definite 'interpretation', I think ;-)). > > > > I may not be using the right words, but the idea is that one develops initial insight within the setting of the conventional world. Denying that this is where the path starts in my opinion would be inaccurate. > >=============== > > J: Textual basis for the idea that `one develops initial insight within the setting of the conventional world'? I'll have to look around. Anyway, I've given you one sutta above, so you owe me a commentary. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #114981 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed May 11, 2011 1:34 pm Subject: What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114031) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > But I wouldn't say we can speak of a kusala cycle of mutual influence, in the sense that I take you to mean it here, at least not until insight has been developed to the higher levels. > > > > [RE:] How would the mutual influence come into play once insight was developed? > > =============== > > J: When kusala of any kind has been developed to the stage of becoming a faculty (indriya) or power (bala), then it can arise at the slightest prompting, virtually 'at will'. The simile given in the texts is that of `like a strong man bending his arm'. That is interesting. Still no one doing it though, right? It's "virtually at will," but no will involved...? > > =============== > > > Is it just me, or are there similarities with certain current-day interpretations of the teachings? Such as "Unleash the Power Within" (UPW). > > > > [RE:] My understanding of Buddhism has always been 'unleash the understanding' and I think most Buddhists still believe this. > > =============== > > Any textual basis the idea that Dhamma is about 'unleashing the understanding'? I thought you would agree with that. I was saying "understanding," rather than "power." I wasn't too worried about the leash or lack thereof. But I don't think the Buddha specifically said to "unleash" anything. He did say to practice without cease, put in continuous effort, strive, etc., on many occasions. But I don't have a handy reference at the moment. I'm sure you've seen all those things too. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114982 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed May 11, 2011 1:41 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114047) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: Well, I would say he is a relative beginner in terms of jhana attainment, but advanced when compared to the run-of-the-mill lay follower (the likes of you and me ;-)). > > > > [RE:] Me, I can understand. I am just a Dhamma baby. But you? That is interesting. You have been steeped in Dhamma for many many years. Why are you a beginner, and what would have to happen for you to be more advanced? Are you saying you are in an early life in the succession of lives necessary to accumulate advanced tendencies and understandings? > > =============== > > J: A beginner in the sense that awareness of/insight into the true nature of dhammas is far from being well-developed. > > > =============== > J: It's not a matter of just following the breath and sticking with it. What would be the kusala in that? > > > =============== > Are you saying after so many years that you have spent on Dhamma study, that this person who can't concentrate from one breath to the next is more advanced than you? That is nonsensical. He is said to be "a beginner," period, not "an advanced person who is a beginner in samatha." That is really stretching it to the breaking point. > =============== > > J: See my recent post about the context of the reference to `beginner'. I saw it, but it does not explain why a beginner in the sense that he cannot keep concentration from one breath to the next is in any way advanced in anything. To my mind this detail and many others keeps the case from matching your description of it. Please explain the inability to follow the breath by someone who is supposedly advanced in anything. If he is a beginner in samatha and has no development of concentration, what exactly is he advanced in? He's managed to develop advanced sila with no concentration or insight at all? What is it, advanced sila by rote? > > =============== > > > And yes, there is significance in the expression "who is of good birth". > > > > Yeah, well, your birth can't be that bad if you are successful in your professional career, have a happy Dhamma-based marriage and have had the good fortune to study Dhamma with K. Sujin all these years. I mean, it can't get much better than that can it? > > =============== > > J: Yes, I am certainly one lucky guy in this lifetime. But it didn't happen by doing nothing, nor by doing any particular form of practice ;-)) I'm not sure if any of us remember how that happened. I'll bet you did some serious meditation in former lifetimes, then forgot. ;-) > > =============== > > [RE:] What I am saying is that in allowing awareness to cultivate within the things of the world as they are actually experienced now allows one to have those moments of mundane insight, whereas holding the wrong view that the "right concept" is superior to a "real unanticipated moment of awareness now" will keep one from progressing. Maybe that is more clear...? > > =============== > > J: There is no such thing in the teachings as awareness of conventional items such as computer or person; only of dhammas. How about birth, death, illness, mother, father, beings, persons and activities? All conventional, and all subject to the teachings. > > =============== > [RE:] K. Sujin has said similar things in a different way, such as not to worry about what things are called or how they are supposed to work, what is experienced now? > > =============== > > J: By `what is experienced now' I understand her to be referring to presently arising dhammas. Of course, but she also says not to worry about that either, as long as one has understanding of realities, that nimitta is fine as long as it is understood in terms of dhammas, and that concept will arise and one then is aware that it is concept. Everything is on the table! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114983 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed May 11, 2011 2:05 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The seeing of dhammas as they truly are (what you call actual direct seeing) is what is meant by mundane insight. Since it is direct seeing (panna experiencing a dhamma), it is free of concept. > > The activity of 'seeing ordinary objects and life-situations clearly, and applying the understanding of anicca and anatta to them' is the imposing of a learnt conceptual idea onto other concepts. Such a practice could never lead to seeing dhammas as they truly are, because it is bound up with an imperfect view of things. How about thinking about such concepts as one does in Dhamma study and discussion? Is that somehow more perfect than actual seeing? I doubt it. > > =============== > > > In the suttas, the terms anicca and anatta are invariably linked to the direct experience of dhammas. They are characteristics/aspects that are to be experienced by panna, rather than something to be conceptualised about and then 'applied' (whether to dhammas or to conventional objects). > > > > [RE:] It is conceptualization that I am trying to get away from here, advocating looking now at what appears now. > > =============== > > J: It is by virtue of seeing dhammas as they truly are that the characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anatta come to be known. At such moments of seeing/panna, there is no conceptualisation. But the deliberate action of 'looking at' dhammas is not one of the conditions for that direct seeing to arise. How about the deliberate action of thinking about such things, as is the habit in the "Right Understanding" school of thought? > > =============== > > > J: The starting point must be that what is experienced by hearing consciousness is just sound/audible object. > > > > That can only take place if one attends the sound experience now. > > =============== > > J: The attending to the sound being experienced now is something that is taking place regardless of whether there is the understanding of it as such. > > > =============== > [RE:] At one moment one may be "listening to the music," at the next they may understand that it is "audible object." There is no break in listening, just in understanding. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, it is not a matter of seeing music as mere audible object (that is to say, of applying intellectual understanding to concepts), but of audible object being seen as it truly is by awareness/insight that arises in its own good time, conditioned by hearing and reflecting on the teachings. I think it's going to be a long wait. > > =============== > > > The perception/recognition of a particular persons' voice, meaning of words spoken, etc, occurs subsequent to those moments of hearing consciousness, and is the work of the multiple mind-door processes that follow each moment of sense-door experience. > > > > [RE:] And those represent real moments of real namas. To see what is taking place now, one must see the namas and rupas now, not some other ones that take their place. Only concept has to be removed, not the experience. > > =============== > > J: The problem is not the concepts or the conceptualising, but the lack of panna that sees things as they truly are: dhammas as dhammas (and concepts as concepts). That may be so, but the question as always is whether one has anything to do. Being a radical non-actionist you would have to err on the side of not-doing. It's very zen of you really. ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #114984 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed May 11, 2011 2:17 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114061) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: That assumes there is something to be known about concepts ;-)) > > > > [RE:] Well there is - that they are concepts. If one does not identify concepts as concepts where exactly would that leave one? Aren't you knowing something about them right now as you write about them? > >=============== > > J: I'm all for concepts being known as concepts, or at least not taken for dhammas, but I think this is knowledge that comes from the understanding of dhammas as dhammas, not from studying concepts/conventional objects. And what does one do when concepts arise? > >=============== > > > J: Well, dhammas are always associated with other dhammas. But what makes a dhamma a dhamma is that each dhamma of its kind has a unique characteristic, discernable by panna, that distinguishes it from all other kinds of dhammas. > > > > [RE:] It is a point of interest whether such objective thingy-ness really arises with such mechanical clarity. Since none of us have seen one with such clarity [I assume] it is just theoretical. > > =============== > > J: Right, but clarifying one's intellectual/theoretical understanding of things is definitely helpful. I thought that studying concepts was the wrong way to go? > > =============== > > > And when a dhamma is the object of consciousness-with-panna, it is not intermingled with other dhammas. So in that sense I would say that dhammas can indeed be seen in their 'pure form'. > > > > [RE:] I think that's a theory rather than a verified reality. > > =============== > > J: Of course it's theoretical (theoretical understanding is all that can be discussed). But are you suggesting that awareness does not see dhammas as they really are, individually? I think that awareness sees dhammas in exactly the way that it does. Is awareness perfect? Are dhammas perfectly formed and conforming to the definitions we have of them? That remains to be seen. > > =============== > > > J: Yes, pariyatti is understanding *about* dhammas, but patipatti (awareness/insight) is understanding *of* dhammas by direct experience. If this were not possible for the worldling, the path could not be developed. > > > > [RE:] I agree direct experience can be developed through awareness, but exactly what that experience is and whether it arises in crystalline isolation of each pristine dhamma with its little function being purely carried out, is a matter of conjecture, and I don't see why that is the way it has to work in order for there to be insight into the nature of dhammas. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, direct understanding of dhammas involves the direct understanding of individual dhammas, that is to say, one dhamma at a time (although not one moment of one dhamma). If dhammas are not seen individually, then what exactly is the function of awareness? (Less fuzzy concepts, perhaps?) How dhammas are seen by awareness remains to be seen. Whether individual dhammas arise with the kind of clarity that you think they do is uncertain. Generally speaking, nothing is as clean and definite as it is in theory. I am not sure if this is not also the case for dhammas. One dhamma at a time, one sense door at a time, each perfectly formed and conforming to a preset perfect set of rules and functions - all of this is theoretical and has not been confirmed by anyone presently alive, only by theoretically-based scripture. > > =============== > [RE:] That seems like a Platonic ideal of dhammas. It is possible that such a model is confusing the explanation of dhammas with the way in which they actually occur. > > =============== > > J: Not sure what you're suggesting here. Could you be more specific? Obviously, at a moment of, say, seeing, both seeing consciousness and visible object are arising (occurring) contemporaneously. But only one or other of those dhammas can be the object of awareness. See above. > > =============== > > > J: What you call 'looking at our experience as namas and rupas' is not the same thing as direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma as I understand that expression. It is imposing a view or idea of what namas and rupas are onto the present moment. As you say, it is just adding concept to perception. In essence it is just a kind of 'thinking about'. > > > > [RE:] I was describing pariyatti in my own way. How would you describe the process of pariyatti, understanding dhammas correctly and seeing that they are the constituents of reality? > > =============== > > J: I think I see now what you were getting at. You were saying that we can consider whether our present experience is consistent with the explanation in the teachings of the world as mere momentary dhammas (namas and rupas). I'm not sure what you are saying - that this is a false idea on my part...? Also - I'm not convinced that's what I was saying, as it does not quite make sense to me the way "understanding dhammas" did. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #114985 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 11, 2011 9:25 am Subject: What is a Phenomenon? Friends: A good Dhamma Friend asked: Question: What is a phenomenon? Answer: A phenomenon is an experienced state! An appearance, an observed event, a conscious occasion! Whether experienced as a mental object: Ex: An experienced thought, idea, feeling, mood etc. or experienced as a physical object: Ex: An experienced sight, sound, smell, taste or touch; the experience is just a mental state, which is what in Buddhism is called a Dhamm . This event is just a passing moment of conscious time! As such: Everything worldly is a mental state! No thing exists as an independent physical object, until it is observed by a mental experience Before and after this direct observation, this thing remains just an idea or a mere potential possibility! Not quite as 'real' anymore They once asked the Buddha: What is the Cause of a Phenomenon? He replied: Attention (manasikra ) is the cause of any phenomenon! Why so? When Attention is present, the Phenomenon appears... When Attention is absent, the Phenomenon disappears! and further later added: This World both Begins and Ends within this 2 fathom frame of bones... SN I 62 The ALL is thereby actually just a sensed & experienced representation... SN IV 15 Insisting on Real Direct Experience: This ultra-realistic emphasis on experience is called Radical Empiricism , a pragmatic concept, which philosophically was coined by William James. <....> The Phenomenon Match Occurring only momentarily by experienced observation! Not out there as a substance, but 'in here' in mind, as just yet another passing mental state Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #114986 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2011 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) Hi Rob E, Ken O & All, --- On Fri, 29/4/11, Robert E wrote: >>KO: Nowhere in the text said that if panna don't arise, it is not known as mundane right path factor. On the other hand, the text said about mundane and supramundane virture, concentration and insight and those with cankers are mundane and those without are suparmundane. .... R:> Thank you, this is very helpful to clarify the different understanding of the mundane and supramundane path factors and how they operate. .... S: There is no (right)mundane or supramundane path without panna/samma ditthi, just as there is no wrong path without micha ditthi. See the section in AN on right and wrong paths. For example, Rob and I were discussing why wrong view was so harmful: AN, Bk of 10s, 104 'The Seed' (PTS transl): " 'Monks, for a man, a person, who has wrong view, wrong thinking, speech, action, living, effort, mindfulness, concentration, wrong knowledge and wrong release, whatsoever bodily action is carried to completion and fulfillment according to that view, whatsoever action of speech, of mind, whatsoever intention, aspiration, resolve, whatsoever activities of mind (directed thereto) there may be - all those states conduce to what is unpleasant, not delightful, not charming, not profitable, to what is painful. What is the cause of that? Monks, the view is bad. ... Micchaadi.t.thikassa bhikkhave purisa puggalassa micchaa sa.mkappassa micchaa vaacassa micchaa kammantassa micchaa aajiivassa micchaa vaayaamassa micchaa satissa micchaa samaadhissa micchaa ~naa.nissa micchaa vimuttissa ya~nceva kaayakamma.m yathaadi.t.thi samatta.m samaadinna.m, ya~nca vaciikamma.m yathaadi.t.thi samatta.m samaadinna.m ya~nca manokamma.m yathaadi.t.thi samatta.m samaadinna.m, yaa ca cetanaa yaa ca patthanaa, yo ca pa.nidhi, ye ca sa'nkhaaraa, sabbe te dhammaa, ani.t.thaaya akantaaya amanaapaaya ahitaaya dukkhaaya sa.mvattanti. Ta.m kissa hetu: di.t.thi hi bhikkhave paapikaa. S: The opposite is given. When there is right view, all the other 'rights' follow. Metta Sarah ====== #114987 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2011 5:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? Hi Rob E, --- On Mon, 2/5/11, Robert E wrote: >>S:...I liked the story about the Tai Chi master and the "Invest in loss". We can learn a lot at times of loss. I think it's the Yang style long form of tai chi that I first learnt. R:>It's a great form. Unfortunately I had a long break during which I "unlearnt" it. And haven't had the opportunity to re-learn during recent years - while being commanded to do various things by my wife and child. :-) .... S: I know....if one doesn't keep practising it..... I need some re-learning too. Btw, on the trip here I watched the latest Shaolin movie with all the great Hong Kong actors in it. Great martial arts and lots of Zennish Dhamma. A lot of fun. .... >> S: Yes....even just before death, there may be mindfulness and understanding. The limits are mostly in the mind, not appreciating the power of the Teachings and their applicability to anytime, any reality. ... R:>I like the way you put that - 'the power of the Teachings.' That is good to remember. .... S: Anytime is the right time for right understanding and awareness to arise. That means now! First, however, there has to be a very clear understanding of what the dhammas are that can be known - not movies, tai chi, postures, computers or beings! Metta Sarah ====== #114988 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2011 5:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why a sotapanna would never intentionally kill a being: KK March 2011 Hi Rob E, --- On Mon, 2/5/11, Robert E wrote: >> S: Nicely put - all "dhammas only" as you stated at the outset. Thx, Rob! R:> I just want to say that it took a number of conversations here, where I questioned you, Jon and others about the workings of kamma, kamma patha and vipaka, to piece together some understanding of how this works on the level of intention/cetana. It really was a project because I found the entire subject of kamma as intention and action very confusing, and have for some time. I will say that it is a complex subject and still has many aspects that I want to inquire into, but the piece described above started to make sense to me after a number of rounds of questioning and some good explanations, mostly from yourself. So my understanding of this subject has a high degree of dsg contribution. I may go back to arguing about parts of it again sometime soon, but I'm glad I at least understand part of it. .... S: I appreciate the way you read and consider so carefully. Now, at least, you can argue with the "pesky" Rob E (and any others) when arguing what you wrote:-) We all have to consider, question and develop more and more understanding. Metta Sarah ===== #114989 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2011 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tranquillity! Dear Ken O & all, If we look at the refs Ven Samahita gave here (#114867), you'll see that the tranquillity enlightenment factor is passaddhi-sambojjhanga as I mentioned. This is calm (samatha), no other "samatha factor": --- On Mon, 2/5/11, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Tranquillity is a Link to Awakening! > The Tranquillity Link to Awakening (passaddhi-sambojjhanga) > has the > characteristic of peace, and the function of stilling, > which manifests > as absence of restless trembling. Stillness of feeling, > perception and > mental construction is the factor that induces bodily > Tranquillity. > Stillness of consciousness itself induces mental > Tranquillity. > The proximate cause of Tranquillity is the satisfaction > within Joy! > The resulting effect of Tranquillity is the bliss within > Happiness! > > The Buddha once said: What mental > > fermentations (sava) should be > overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful > > & > rational attention > develops the Tranquillity Link to Awakening based on > seclusion, based > on disillusion, based on ceasing, and culminating in cool > relinquishment, > then neither can mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor > any discontent > ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] .... S: "Based on seclusion" - this is the seclusion from kilesa, the true calm, developed by panna which understands its characteristic. .... > > In one who is joyous, the body becomes calm & the mind > becomes calm. > The Tranquillity Link to Awakening emerges right there. He > develops it, > & for him it goes to the culmination of its > development. MN118 [iii 85] .... S: By "the body becomes calm & the mind becomes calm", are meant the development of citta and kaya passaddhi, calm of citta and cetasikas. This is what samatha is at any moments of kusala. Metta Sarah ====== > > CALMED > Calm is his thought, calm is his speech, > and calm is his deed, who, truly knowing, > is wholly freed, perfectly tranquil and wise. > Dhammapada > %20Sites\What_Buddha_Said\Canon\Sutta\KN\Dhammapada.htm> > 96 > > CONTENT > The one who eliminates discontent, tearing it out > by the roots, utterly cuts it out, such one spontaneously > becomes absorbed in the calm of tranquillity both day & > night. > Dhammapada > %20Sites\What_Buddha_Said\Canon\Sutta\KN\Dhammapada.htm> > 250 > > COMPOSED > The one who is tranquil in movement, calmed in speech, > stilled in thought, collected & composed, who sees > right > through & rejects all allurements of this world, such > one > is truly a 'Peaceful One'. > Dhammapada > %20Sites\What_Buddha_Said\Canon\Sutta\KN\Dhammapada.htm> > 378 > > > Inspirations on the calming & soothing of serene > Tranquillity (Passaddhi): > Tranquillity_Passaddhi > > , > Feeding_Tranquillity > > , > The_Tranquil_One > > > One the related state of Calm (Samatha > > ): > Forest Bliss > , Calm > , > Calm_and_Insight > > , Calm_Power, > > Calmed > , > Breathing_Calm_and_Insight > > , > Silenced , > Forest_Bliss2 > > ... > Have a nice & noble day! > > Friendship is the Greatest! > > Bhikkhu > Samhita _/\_ * > <....> > > #114990 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 11, 2011 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How is wisdom accumulated Dear Ken H, Op 11-mei-2011, om 3:58 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > I think there is a reason the Dhamma hasn't tried to explain > "latent" or "accumulated" in any more detail than it has. We > already know from conventional reality that we can be (for example) > happy one minute and sad the next. When we are happy there are > accumulations for sadness - and vice versa. > > We already know that sort of thing, and therefore there is no need > for further explanation. The Dhamma just has to explain that > accumulations apply citta, not to a permanent self. That's the part > we don't already know. ---------- N: Hear, hear! We are so used to think of 'my accumulations', we take them for self. It is important to know that the condition of natural strong dependence-condition includes accumulations that condition the kusala citta or akusala citta at the present. ------- Nina. #114991 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2011 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated Hi Rob E & all, --- On Mon, 2/5/11, Robert E wrote: >Can you explain again how tendencies "lie dormant" in a citta, and are carried by that citta? I am having a hard time imagining how that is possible in a momentary act of consciousness. .... S: Let me add a little more. The Pali term 'anusaya' (latent tendency/proclivity/dormant disposition) is derived from anu + seti and 'anusayati' which means 'to lie dormant'. Like microbes, they 'inhere' or lie dormant in each citta which conditions the next citta with all its 'microbes' lying dormant too. The texts refer to how we are like sick people, because these microbes can condition strong attachmen and other unwholesome states to arise anytime unless they've been eradicated. From an earlier post I wrote to James & Tep: >The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 60) "... For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again." We come across the anusayas a lot in the suttas as well. For example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html B.Bodhi’s translation which starts off: “...Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness.... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering” BB adds extensive commentary notes. For example, In the sutta we read: "If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness........Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering." "Spk (commentary): this refers to a moment when there is no occurrence of [wholesome and unwholesome] volition of the three planes, and no occurrence of the mental fabrications of craving and views. 'but one still has a tendency': by this the underlying tendencies are included because they have not been abandoned here in the resultants of the three planes........As long as the underlying tendencies exist, they become a condition for the kammic consciousness, for there is no way to prevent its arising." The texts refer to three levels of defilements which are: 1.viitikkama kilesa (coarse defilements of the degree of unwholesome kamma patha) 2.pariyutthaana kilesa (medium defilements which commonly arise throughout the day) 3.anusaya kilesa (subtle defilements that are latent or lie dormant and are only eradicated at the four stages of enlightenment. It really means that nothing is ever lost - the wisdom, greed, likes, dislikes and so on are accumulated and condition more of the same when the conditions are right. The anusayas just refer to the tendencies to sensuous greed, hate, wrong views, doubt. Conceit, craving for existence and ignorance. As we know, these states can arise strongly 'out of the blue' and this is because of the 'dormant' tendencies for them.< S: Similarly with wholesome tendencies - these are also accumulated and "lie dormant" when they don't arise in each citta. Metta Sarah ======= #114992 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2011 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusaya revisited Dear Nina & Han, I'm interested in your discussion. I hope you don't mind my adding some comments in case anything might be useful: --- On Wed, 4/5/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >HK When I read your post, I found that the translation of "anuseti" > could be three things: > (1) lies dormant (the standard translation), > (2) adheres to (and also conascent with), > (3) inherent in. > I do not know Pali grammar, but according to the Burmese books, I > would go for the first one, i.e., lies dormant. .... S: I think that this is the literal translation, but I have no difficulty with any of these translations. I think the meaning in English is very close. Microbes 'adhere to', sounds fine. I see another problem in the English translations, however: ... H:> Why? > In the following statement, > "Surely, the latent tendency of sense desire that adheres to an > object, does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the > dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible > object that is desirable, and so on." ... S: Here, I think the translation is not accurate, because we can't talk about "adhering" to an object (or "lying dormant" in an object either) in this regard. .... H:> in Burmese translation, instead of [*adhere* to these two feelings] > it is translated as [taking these two feelings as *objects*.] So > the word *adhere* may not be so appropriate. ... S: I think the Burmese translation sounds more accurate. Surely, the meaning of the Pali is that the latent tendency adheres to/lies dormant in the citta (and accompanying cetasikas) with a tendency to experience particular desirable objects. .... ------- >N: anuseti is followed by an ablative: anuseti in what? Lies dormant in what seems strange. The latent tendency itself is latent and does not arise and experience an object. It is a basis for the arising of akusala citta conditioned by it. .... S: Lies dormant in the citta. This was the 4th use of ablative which Han listed - the place 'wherein', surely? It is latent and does not arise and experience an object, but still, it is the tendency of attachment, for example, to a particular desirable object, just as the attachment which arises is attached to a particular desirable object. The kaamaraagaanusaya is conascent with the pleasant and indifferent feelings and also takes them as objects as Han's Burmese comy and Nina described. "This points to the anusaya that conditions the arising of akusala citta with kaamaraga and this takes as object sukha vedanaa or upekkhaa vedanaa or is conascent with these." Each lobha is different, accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling, attached to its object, so often a pleasant feeling, each accumulated as tendency. Just as Nina quoted before: "Thus, desirable naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas can be the objects of sense desire. When sense desire arises and has as object desirable naamas and ruupas, the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense desire continues. Therefore, the Buddha said that there is the latent tendency of sense desire for a lovely thing (piya ruupa) and pleasant thing (saata ruupa)." So it is the inherent tendency to cling to a lovely or pleasant thing, but we can't refer to it as adhering to visible object or lying dormant in visible object as the translator did in the first quote. Again, I find the translation from the Sammohavinodanii confusing here: "Ettha sattaana.m raagaanusayo anuseti (here inheres the beings' inherent tendency to greed); in that desirable object beings' inherent tendency to greed in the sense of its being unabandoned inheres..." Again, I think there may well be confusion in the translation, because the anusaya does not "inhere" in the desirable object - it inheres in the citta (and accompanying cetasikas) to (the experiencing of) that desirable object. I tend to think that whichever translation is used, this has to be made clear. Just my 2 cents worth, as they say! Metta Sarah ======= #114993 From: han tun Date: Wed May 11, 2011 9:21 pm Subject: Re: anusaya revisited Dear Sarah and Nina, I thank Sarah very much for her comments. I have only one point to make. Nina wrote to me [Adhere to is nearer to: taking an object, like one of your Burmese translations.] I look at the following Pali text. Yamakappakara.na-a.t.thakathaa 7. Anusayayamaka.m 2. Idaani tesa.m uppatti.t.thaana.m pakaasetu.m kattha kaamaraagaanusayo anusetiitiaadimaaha. Tattha kaamadhaatuyaa dviisu vedanaasuuti kaamaavacarabhuumiya.m sukhaaya ca upekkhaaya caati dviisu vedanaasu. Ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anusetiiti imaasu dviisu vedanaasu uppajjati. So panesa akusalavedanaasu sahajaatavasena aaramma.navasena caati dviihaakaarehi anuseti. Akusalaaya sukhaaya vedanaaya ceva upekkhaaya vedanaaya ca sahajaatopi hutvaa uppajjati. Taa vedanaa aaramma.na.m katvaapi uppajjatiiti attho. Avasesaa pana kaamaavacarakusalavipaakakiriyavedanaa aaramma.nameva katvaa uppajjati. Kaamadhaatuyaa dviisu vedanaasu anusayamaano cesa taahi vedanaahi sampayuttesu sa~n~naasa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.nesupi anusetiyeva. Na hi sakkaa vedanaasu anusayamaanena ta.msampayuttehi sa~n~naadiihi saddhi.m asahajaatena vaa bhavitu.m, ta.msampayutte vaa sa~n~naadayo aaramma.na.m akatvaa uppajjitu.m. Eva.m santepi pana yasmaa imaa dve vedanaava saatasantasukhattaa assaada.t.thena kaamaraagaanusayassa uppattiyaa sesasampayuttadhammesu padhaanaa, tasmaa "dviisu vedanaasu ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anusetii"ti vutta.m, o.laarikavasena hi bodhaneyye sukha.m bodhetunti. Han: I do not have the English translation or the Burmese translation of the above Pali text. But I find the following sentences in there. [Ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anusetiiti imaasu dviisu vedanaasu uppajjati. So panesa akusalavedanaasu *sahajaatavasena* *aaramma.navasena* caati dviihaakaarehi anuseti.] Thus I think the Burmese translation of taking the two kinds of vedanaa as *objects* and *in conascent* with them are based on *sahajaatavasena* and *aaramma.navasena*. I can be wrong. Respectfully, Han #114994 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 11, 2011 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusaya revisited Dear Han, Thank you for your input. Op 11-mei-2011, om 13:21 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > [Ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anusetiiti imaasu dviisu vedanaasu > uppajjati. So panesa akusalavedanaasu *sahajaatavasena* > *aaramma.navasena* caati dviihaakaarehi anuseti.] > > Thus I think the Burmese translation of taking the two kinds of > vedanaa as *objects* and *in conascent* with them are based on > *sahajaatavasena* and *aaramma.navasena*. -------- N: I quote from the Thai treatise: < When it is said that the latent tendencies inhere in feeling and objects, this does not mean that the latent tendencies arise and perform functions. It means that, so long as there are latent tendencies, there are conditions for the arising of medium defilements (pariyutthna kilesa, arising with akusala citta) and coarse defilements (vitikkama kilesa, transgressions). These are accompanied by feeling and the other dhammas that arise at such moments. When the objects that are appropriate conditions for the arising of the relevant medium defilements, thus, objects they attach weight to and that are the usual objects for them, then the medium defilements are powerful and they cause the continuation of the latent tendencies concerned. > This may be easier to understand when we remember that the anusayas do not arise, but cause the arising of medium defilements. Even when it is said in the texts that anusayas arise, it means that they themselves do not arise but cause the arising of medium defilements. For example lobha that arises with the akusala citta attaches weight to the pleasant object it experiences, it falls away and then it is accumulated again. More and more lobha is accumulated all the time. No end until it is finally eradicated by lokuttara citta. First sensuous desire at the stage of the anaagaamii and all kinds of lobha at the stage of the arahat. Nina. #114995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 12, 2011 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusaya revisited Dear Sarah Thank you for your input. Op 11-mei-2011, om 10:43 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > So it is the inherent tendency to cling to a lovely or pleasant > thing, but we can't refer to it as adhering to visible object or > lying dormant in visible object as the translator did in the first > quote. > > Again, I find the translation from the Sammohavinodanii confusing > here: > > "Ettha sattaana.m raagaanusayo anuseti (here inheres the beings' > inherent tendency to greed); in that desirable object beings' > inherent tendency to greed in the sense of its being unabandoned > inheres..." > > Again, I think there may well be confusion in the translation, > because the anusaya does not "inhere" in the desirable object - it > inheres in the citta (and accompanying cetasikas) to (the > experiencing of) that desirable object. ------ N: The Pali uses all the time : anuseti, it is dormant in. This is also strange, unless it is explained. Very hard to find a satisfying word. I had to choose a term and thought that inhere in is closest to anuseti. In the text it is explained in many quotes what is meant by this. As to sammohavinodanii, this translation is not wrong: So long as the latent tendency to greed has not been abandoned there will be conditions for the arising of greed with the akusala citta (medium defilement) to experience that desirable object. I am sitting for hours over this text each day! Nina. #114996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 12, 2011 12:29 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies. Dear Lukas, Op 8-mei-2011, om 12:58 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > More important than reading the texts is understanding this moment. > > If this moment is akusala citta we should understand that it can > only > > arise because there are latent tendencies accumulated in each citta. > > L: So being aware of the seeing and hearing now? ------- N: Whatever object appears, not just seeing or hearing. ------- > > L: I've learned that sometimes there is kusala thinking, but it > doesn't need any effort then when it arises. It happens > spontaneously. But then it alters with akusala thinking all the > time. And those moments of akusala thinking they last too long. > I am constantly looking for a way to get back to right thinking. > But it doesn't work. No matter what I do this old kamma needs to > burn out. ------ N: It doesn't work. When one thinks with an idea of self about right thinking that does not help. This has nothing to do with kamma that has to burn out. It is a matter of latent tendencies. I like what Azita says: 'its a false idea that we can change what has already arisen; but there can be a growing understanding that these realities arise, they fall away, and there's no controlling them but there can be awareness of them.'. ------ Nina. #114997 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 12, 2011 12:35 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies. Dear Lukas, Op 8-mei-2011, om 16:12 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > I remember that I had a friend who was very advanced in pali > translation and this was constantly anoying me that he translate > sati as memory, remembrance. I tried to explain that this is not > good translation cause sati has it's own distinc characteristic > that is not the same as memory. > > But when I am considering Dhamma now, I sometimes appreciate this > having Dhamma in mind. I think having in mind, remembering Dhamma > text's can be a condition for right understanding now. For example > when I read more, the mind considers more Dhamma and this can be a > condition for kusala or right thinking. > -------- N: Sati remembers, is non-forgetful of what is wholesome and beneficial and there are many levels. It is different from sa~n~naa arising with each citta that remembers and marks the object. Firm remembrance of the Dhamma is a condition for satipa.t.thaana. ------ L:P.s > I know Adam is lurking cause he wrote me that he had a lot of fun > due to my recent post. > ------- N: I am glad Adam has fun, and maybe he can come out of his lurking condition. Any thought he writes will be appreciated. ------ Nina. > #114998 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu May 12, 2011 3:46 am Subject: Re: anusaya revisited Hello Nina Always very good to read your work and comments. I have been lurking in the background here for some time - since returning from Thailand in mid-March. An unexpected health issue (nerve pain in right side of face and neck) has kept me busy with doctors etc - lots of akusala - fortunately it is now considerably decreased (though still undiagnosed) and I am getting back into a more usual routine. My comments below may be oversimplification of what you are discussing - just checking to see that I am understanding the point made. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > -------- > N: I quote from the Thai treatise: > < When it is said that the latent tendencies inhere in feeling and > objects, this does not mean that the latent tendencies arise and > perform functions. It means that, so long as there are latent > tendencies, there are conditions for the arising of medium > defilements (pariyutthna kilesa, arising with akusala citta) and > coarse defilements (vitikkama kilesa, transgressions). These are > accompanied by feeling and the other dhammas that arise at such > moments. When the objects that are appropriate conditions for the > arising of the relevant medium defilements, thus, objects they attach > weight to and that are the usual objects for them, then the medium > defilements are powerful and they cause the continuation of the > latent tendencies concerned. > > > This may be easier to understand when we remember that the anusayas > do not arise, but cause the arising of medium defilements. Even when > it is said in the texts that anusayas arise, it means that they > themselves do not arise but cause the arising of medium defilements. > For example lobha that arises with the akusala citta attaches weight > to the pleasant object it experiences, it falls away and then it is > accumulated again. More and more lobha is accumulated all the time. A: Can we say that the anusayas are one of the conditions condition for fresh moments of lobha, dosa etc. Because the accumulated anusayas are cetaskias that have arisen and fallen away, never to arise again. Thus they can only be one of a number of conditions for subsequent moments of fresh lobha etc. I hope that you are both well. I certainly thought of you often when in Dhamma discussions in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and KK, many of which have been described and discusses here too. Ann #114999 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 12, 2011 5:25 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: anusaya revisited Dear Ann, Always glad to hear from you. I watched a DVD made in Dhamma Home Chiengmai and saw you sitting there, with Pinna. Good discussions. I just made notes as well as of those in Bhutan. When I have time I shall post them, but for the moment I am busy with the anusayas, revising again. Op 11-mei-2011, om 19:46 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > > I have been lurking in the background here for some time - since > returning from Thailand in mid-March. An unexpected health issue > (nerve pain in right side of face and neck) has kept me busy with > doctors etc - lots of akusala - fortunately it is now considerably > decreased (though still undiagnosed) and I am getting back into a > more usual routine. > ------ N: I hope you get well soon, you enjoy cycling so much. I hope you can do it. You are very sportive. I thought you looked well in Chiengmai. > --------- > > A: Can we say that the anusayas are one of the conditions condition > for fresh moments of lobha, dosa etc. Because the accumulated > anusayas are cetasikas that have arisen and fallen away, never to > arise again. Thus they can only be one of a number of conditions > for subsequent moments of fresh lobha etc. > ------ N: Yes, all the time, no end, until they are eradicated. It is said, they are dormant, and this means, as is stressed by the commentary, that they cannot be eradicated yet. Therefore, I do not think we can say of the kusala that is accumulated that they are dormant. The anusayas are powerful conditions for the arising of akusala now. ----- > > A: I hope that you are both well. I certainly thought of you often > when in Dhamma discussions in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and KK, many of > which have been described and discussed here too. > ------- N: Thank you. I read now Dhamma to Lodewijk, at least twice a day, sometimes three times. That is good for his health, he feels too tired. Did you make notes and what did you get from Chiengmai? Hope to hear from you again, ------- Nina.