#115600 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:45 am Subject: the All and Buddha's begging bowl truth_aerator Hello KenH, >KH: When, in this context, the Buddha says "eye and visible object" >he means the world - all that exists - at the eye door. But He didn't mention eye-consciousness (for example). Neither did he mention 52 cetasikas, for example. >I think you are referring to the fact that, in other suttas, eye >consciousness and various cetasikas (e.g., contact and feeling) are >also mentioned. There are endless ways of classifying ultimate >reality, but the end result is always the same, isn't it? - it's the >namas and rupas that have presently arisen at one of the six doors. Everything that is experienced is namarupa. But even the begging bowl which the Buddha carried on alms round is made of rupa. The bowl exists, as a phenomena made from rupa. Same with everything else. Alex Writing and you reading this, exists, otherwise you wouldn't read this. > > A: Or Buddha's begging bowl which He used to collect alms-food? > ------------- >KH: That's what I am asking you: where are all the concepts? They >are not withing the all (unless you are using Ven Thanissaro's >translation). So, are they outside the all? Is there *anything* >outside the all? They are made of namarupas which do exist. With metta, Alex #115601 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the All and Buddha's begging bowl farrellkevin80 Dear Alex, all Alex: Everything that is experienced is namarupa. But even the begging bowl which the Buddha carried on alms round is made of rupa. The bowl exists, as a phenomena made from rupa. Kevin: Not ultimately, no. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115602 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the All and Buddha's begging bowl truth_aerator Dear Kevin, all, > Dear Alex, all > >Alex: Everything that is experienced is namarupa. But even the >begging bowl which the Buddha carried on alms round is made of rupa. >The bowl exists, as a phenomena made from rupa. > > Kevin: Not ultimately, no. Well what is it made of? Thin air? Or it doesn't exist? So where did the Buddha place food that He got from alms-round? With metta, Alex #115603 From: Vince Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina you wrote: > N: Thank you Vince for these texts. In Thailand I heard about the > kaliyana putthujana, the upright person. Even a non-ariyan can be > such a person with full confidence in the Buddha's teaching. Having > confidence, being sincere, listening to the Dhamma again and again > and beginning to be aware of any reality appearing through one of the > six doors. No need to fear an unhappy rebirth. still I'm looking more things about the issue of sila and wisdom, and I had found this Sutta in where Buddha explain the power of detachment for Puthujjanas. They can go to release by detachment even ignoring many things on Dhamma: “Monks, the ordinary person(Puthujjana), unlearned in spiritual knowledge, might grow weary of, might become detached from, might become released from this physical body made up of the four great elements. What is the reason for this? Because, monks, apparent are the increase and the decrease, the taking up and the putting down, of this physical body made up of the four great elements. For that reason, the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, might grow weary, might become detached, might become released." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.niza.html In the note 1, the translator explain about the etymology of puthujjana. He says it comes from "one more in the mass", or "common person". I don't know Pali, and also I ignore if this can be the same sense in Thai buddhist tradition. But I remembered of your comment so I write this here. Btw, here Buddha stress detachment over the knowledge of more Dhamma matters. I have never seen this in such explicit way. I think that's wonderful! :) thanks for your comments Vince. #115604 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the All and Buddha's begging bowl farrellkevin80 Alex, all Alex: Well what is it made of? Thin air? Or it doesn't exist? So where did the Buddha place food that He got from alms-round? Kevin: Alex, you must learn about the distinction of Realities and Concepts. All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho nilovg Dear Shalini, Op 9-jun-2011, om 18:07 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > Is that not by effort and how can one go against the Buddha's > repeated exhortation of Samma Padhana to 'ABANDON akusala, DEVELOP > ungenerated kusala, STOP ungenerated akusala from occuring, to GROW > and maintain already generated kusala??". > I wonder what accumulated inclinations would let me put efforts > towards generating kusala that I have not yet accumulated then? ------ N: I always find this text very inspiring. I do not deny the importance of right effort, but I think that this develops together with right understanding. It is difficult to actually realize that persons are like foam or bubbles, it is a long learning process. But it is good to begin learning about naama and ruupa, since this is the way leading to this understanding. Surely, not at the state of arahatship, but at the stage of the sotaapanna it is clearly understood: there are no persons, beings or self. I am truly sorry you leave the list since I think that your remarks and questions are useful. You will find here different opinions, but I think that this does not matter. We can discuss in an openminded way and respect other people for their opinions. Nina. #115606 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:17 pm Subject: Anattaa. nilovg Dear friends, I read to Lodewijk from my "In Asoka's Footsteps": < No matter what we see, hear or experience through the bodysense, there are only nåma and rúpa. We may say to ourselves, “there are only nåma and rúpa”, but their different characteristics should be known when they appear one at a time. Nåma is different from rúpa, and only when there is mindfulness of them, understanding of the difference between their characteristics can develop. We should not try to control realities which are conditioned already, but just follow them. This is a test for our understanding. We may think of the need for the perfections of energy and patience, but there may be clinging to a self who wants to have them. Khun Sujin said that they arise already because of conditions, and that there is no need to remind ourselves of them. We never know what will happen. One of our friends was so ill that she could not continue the bus trip and had to take a plane. It was unavoidable that this meant a delay for all of us. But if we “follow the stream” in difficult situations or in the company of people who cause us trouble, it will help us to see anattå. Khun Sujin reminded us that we may say, “everything is anattå”, but that this does not mean that we understand anattå. We should consider what exactly is anattå: the nåma or rúpa appearing at this moment. Sound which appears does not belong to anyone, it arises because of its own conditions and it is beyond control. When hearing arises it is beyond control, we cannot help hearing when there are conditions for hearing. Only through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa the truth of anattå can be penetrated. The Buddha’s teaching of anattå is not theory, it relates to this very moment. > ---------- Nina. #115607 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/9/2011 6:51:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, >H:I'm not clear on this non-linearity notion of kamma (that Ven T >seems to like a lot). Could you explain it to me? By non-linear, we could see AN3.99 ""There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.than.html ------------------------------------------------ H: Oh. so, by "non-linearity" of kamma, you refer to an event having multiple conditions that lead to it. That, of course, is basic Dhamma and is something that I certainly accept as valid. I'm not sure, though, that this is what Ven T has in mind. He seems to be talking about some sort of "feed back loops" that I do not follow. ------------------------------------------------ I suggest to study these three suttas at the same time: AN 3.61, MN101, AN3.99 ------------------------------------------------ Thank you. I will. ------------------------------------------- There is such an absolutist conception of kamma that can be stated as "in whatever way you perform kamma, in that way you experience its results". Or more mathematically it could be stated that "1 unit of kamma produces 1 unit of vipaka". So if one where to perform 100 units, one would have to experience 100 units of results. In such a case Awakening would mean that one should stop performing any new kamma, and let the past kamma burn its effects out however much time it could take. If there was no first point for any being (infinity), then it would mean that kamma the effects of which we would have to experienced, is without beginning and thus its effects would be endless. ------------------------------------------------ H: However, any kamma, i.e., any intention and intentional action, is, itself the result of prior conditions and is not random. It is not uncaused. I do agree that the conditions, though, include more than one's own prior kamma. ------------------------------------------------- Endless of kamma being done in the past, would absolutely require endless vipaka in the future. Moreover, it is almost impossible for an ordinary person not to make any (good or bad) kamma during the process of maturation of vipaka from infinite amount of past kamma. So basically, infinite kamma-vipaka would never run out. And if we believe that current action is due to past action (ex: bad kamma that one does now is due to accumulation of bad kamma in previous lives) then there doesn't seem a way out from a linear model of kamma, and bad actions could conveniently be excused on past accumulations. ------------------------------------------------- H: This is fine, so long as we don't think that any present kamma of ours is unconditioned. There is nothing at all that arises uncaused. ------------------------------------------------ certain kind of non-Buddhist teaching on Kamma: "Monks, there are some priests & contemplatives who teach in this way, who have this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted.' Such is the teaching of the Niganthas. ... "So I asked them further, 'Friend Niganthas, what do you think: When there is fierce striving, fierce exertion, do you feel fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment? And when there is no fierce striving, no fierce exertion, do you feel no fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment?' "'Yes, friend...' "'... Then it's not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html ----------------------------------------------------- H: All this says is that what we do now is not fully determined by past kamma of ours, by past intentional actions of ours. But it still remains the case that what we do now occurs due to prior conditions and is not without cause. A simple example: Say we eat something. We do so volitionally - so that is new kamma. However, we have that intention and act on it, because of the nature of our body (acquired at birth and due to other more recent bodily conditions), the predisposition to suffer when hungry, and the inclination to avoid suffering - and all this precedes and conditions the intention to eat. So, sure, we choose to eat, but that choosing is caused. ------------------------------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115608 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving leads to clinging nilovg Dear Philip, Thanks for your kind words. Appreciating your question. Op 10-jun-2011, om 2:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Can you help me understand the link of craving leading to clinging? > I tend to think about it based on the conventional meaning of the > English words and I think that can lead to misunderstanding. Also, > when I think coventionally it seems clinging leads to craving... ----------- N: Feeling conditions craving. Quoting some of Vis. XVII, 234 etc.. Text Vis.234: Six kinds of craving are shown in the analysis of this clause [in the Vibha"nga] as 'visible-data craving, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, and mental-data craving' (Vbh.136), called after their objects, as a son is called after his father 'banker's son', brahman's son'. Each of these six kinds of craving is reckoned threefold according to its mode of occurrence as craving for sense desires, craving for becoming, or craving for non-becoming. ------ N: Resultant pleasant feeling is a powerful inducement, a cogent reason for craving. When the temperature is very agreeable, not too hot or too cold, it conditions pleasant bodily feeling accompanying vipaakacitta. This pleasant bodily feeling is a powerful inducement for craving. Thus, when there are conditions for craving it arises before we even realize it. This shows us the nature of anattaa of craving. ------ -- Craving conditions clinging. Clinging, upaadaana, is stronger than craving, tanhaa. Clinging (upaadaana) is firm grasping; for here the prefix 'upa' has the sense of firmness. Text Vis.: 'Firmness of craving' is a name for the subsequent craving itself, which has become firm by the influence of previous craving, which acts as its decisive-support condition. But some have said: Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief's stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief's grasping his objective. ------- N: The Tiika explains that craving, tanhaa, as aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, is like excitement or trembling (paritassana). Clinging is firm grasping. Tiika: Craving is the root of suffering due to searching for what one wants, and clinging is the root of suffering since one has to protect what one has acquired. Text Vis. 240: Herein, this is the explanation: firstly, there are these four kinds of clinging here, namely, sense-desire clinging, [false-] view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging, and self-doctrine clinging. ***** Clinging and craving lead to suffering for oneself, it is the cause of mental restlessness. One is not contented with what one possesses already and one wants to have ever more. Craving and clinging are opposed to fewness of wishes and contentment. Craving also causes suffering to one's fellowmen, it leads to blows, wounds, strife, it can lead to wars. As the text states, sense-desire craving, tanhaa, can be classified as one-hundred-and-eight kinds with respect to visible data and so on. As to sense-desire clinging, upaadaana, this is the firm state of craving, and this can also be seen as one-hundred-and-eight kinds. All kinds of clinging, including clinging to wrong views, may arise for those who are ordinary persons, who have not attained enlightenment. For instance, personality view may arise, when we believe that we see a person in visual object. Visible object is only a ruupa element, that arises because of conditions. It appears for a very short while, but we keep on thinking of persons or things we believe we see. Visible object is no person or self. Only in being aware of it when it appears right understanding of it can be developed so that there will be less wrong view of it. -------- The Buddha’s teaching that leads to the end of all desire, is a teaching against the stream of common thought. If one delights in sensual pleasure one does not want to give it up. As to self-doctrine clinging, this is said to be subtle, and thus this is taught last. One usually does not notice it when there is clinging to the idea of ‘I see, I hear, I think’. It is deeply rooted and if it is not known it cannot be eradicated. -------- You want examples from daily life. Then we can ask ourselves whether there is craving for some sort of object now. There are all the time objects presenting themselves through the six doors and we never have enough of them. Craving more and more and this conditions clinging more and more, no end. We cling to visible object believing it to be a person, and this goes on and on. For further study, see the dsg files section: ------ Nina. #115609 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving leads to clinging upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 6/10/2011 9:48:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Philip, Thanks for your kind words. Appreciating your question. Op 10-jun-2011, om 2:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Can you help me understand the link of craving leading to clinging? > I tend to think about it based on the conventional meaning of the > English words and I think that can lead to misunderstanding. Also, > when I think coventionally it seems clinging leads to craving... ----------- N: Feeling conditions craving. Quoting some of Vis. XVII, 234 etc.. Text Vis.234: Six kinds of craving are shown in the analysis of this clause [in the Vibha"nga] as 'visible-data craving, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, and mental-data craving' (Vbh.136), called after their objects, as a son is called after his father 'banker's son', brahman's son'. Each of these six kinds of craving is reckoned threefold according to its mode of occurrence as craving for sense desires, craving for becoming, or craving for non-becoming. ------ N: Resultant pleasant feeling is a powerful inducement, a cogent reason for craving. When the temperature is very agreeable, not too hot or too cold, it conditions pleasant bodily feeling accompanying vipaakacitta. This pleasant bodily feeling is a powerful inducement for craving. Thus, when there are conditions for craving it arises before we even realize it. This shows us the nature of anattaa of craving. ------ -- Craving conditions clinging. Clinging, upaadaana, is stronger than craving, tanhaa. Clinging (upaadaana) is firm grasping; for here the prefix 'upa' has the sense of firmness. ===================================== I agree with what you (and the Buddha ;-) say on this, Nina. It makes eminent sense to me that upadana results from tanha, and not the converse. It seems to me that attachment/clinging is a habituated mental and emotional involvement with something that could only result from the (repeated) craving for the presence (or absence) of that thing. We only become attached to what we like or dislike. Upadana is a sort of tanha-induced predisposition. The opposite idea of clinging leading to craving seems wrong to me: We might *think* this is so only because whatever we are attached to is, already, something we typically like or dislike. We crave (the presence of) something that we find pleasant and we crave the absence (i.e., have aversion for) what we find unpleasant, and it is that craving which habituates and ties us to that thing, not the opposite. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115610 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the All and Buddha's begging bowl truth_aerator > Kevin: Alex, you must learn about the distinction of Realities and >Concepts. Dear Kevin, I've read about them a number of time. It seems to go far beyond what the Buddha has meant, or at least emphasized in the suttas. Since I believe that He knew better about how and what to teach, I go with what He has appeared to have said (and without belief that He was cryptic and really hidding his real message). With metta, Alex #115611 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:01 am Subject: Internal Transience! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Internal Sensors are Fragile, Decaying and Vanishing! At Savatthi The Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent! What is impermanent is suffering! What is suffering is no-self! What is no-self should be seen as it really is with correct, true, relevant and realistic understanding thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self... The ear is impermanent.... The nose is impermanent.... The tongue is impermanent.... The body is impermanent.... The mind is impermanent. What is impermanent is ultimately suffering... What is suffering is no-self. What is no-self should be seen as it really is with correct, true, relevant and realistic understanding thus: This is neither me, nor mine, this I am not, this is not my self! Seeing this, bhikkhus, any educated Noble Disciple is disgusted with the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, and with the mind... The experience of this disgust, brings disillusion and disenchantment! Through this disillusion, the mind is all released! When it is liberated, then there appears this assurance: "This mind is irreversibly freed" and one instantly understands: Rebirth is now ended, this Noble Life is fully concluded, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond this... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄya. IV 1-2 The group on the 6 Senses 35:1 The Internal as Impermanent... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <...> #115612 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:05 pm Subject: Re: atta hi attano natho jonoabb Hi Shalini --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Shalini S wrote: > > Dear Nina, > ... > I guess I came here thinking Theravada teachings are same, but realised they perhaps differ. As Han was feeling, it might go towards bias w.r.t to teachings in the Sangha.. and creating schisms is a kamma I do not definitely want to accumulate here, by way of these useles arguments. > > Anyways, I got my confusions resolved by Han's and Vince's pdf which was directly related to my guides and teachers and truly it inspired me to reread many suttas and that helped me put joy and energy into my practice. I am contented with that. > > So I do not want to confuse myself by listening to too many views. "Each blind person touches part of the elephant and has a completely different idea of what it is. But it’s the same one elephant." I am quite a blind person touching the elephant and I better go by the Buddha's Suttas and the words of the teachers I have faith and confidence in, which match with the Buddha's words and my own personal experience. > > Allow me to bid farewell to this study group along with accepting my gratitude for the benefits it gave to me! > > Thanks and metta, > Shalini I have been following your many exchanges with interest, as I'm sure have other members. The issues you've been discussing with Nina, Han and Vince are common talking points here. Please bear in mind that the interpretations of many modern-day teachers do not reflect the long-standing commentarial explanations of the suttas, so if this is your first exposure to the latter there are bound to be points of divergence. Have appreciated your well-informed comments to date, and hope you will continue. Jon #115613 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving leads to clinging philofillet Hi Nina (and Howard) Thanks very much for the well supported explanation, Nina. I will perhaps return with further questions. Thanks also for your interesting thoughts on the topic, Howard. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Philip, > Thanks for your kind words. Appreciating your question. > Op 10-jun-2011, om 2:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > #115614 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws nilovg Dear Vince, Op 10-jun-2011, om 4:42 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Because, monks, apparent are the increase and the decrease, the > taking up and > the putting down, of this physical body made up of the four great > elements. > For that reason, the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in > spiritual > knowledge, might grow weary, might become detached, might become > released." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.niza.html > > In the note 1, the translator explain about the etymology of > puthujjana. He says > it comes from "one more in the mass", or "common person". ------ N: puthu, etymology is not so sure since there are two similar stems. It can mean: spread out. It has also the meaning of individual, separated, numerous, many. Jana is person. Often translated as one of the many folk, an ordinary, avarage person. > -------- > V:Btw, here Buddha stress detachment over the knowledge of more > Dhamma matters. > I have never seen this in such explicit way. I think that's > wonderful! :) ------ N: It is the opposite: when there is more understanding it leads to more detachment. But even the ordinary person, when he learns about the elements, he will be more detached from the body. We cling to "wholes", to collections of things, such as person, animal, tree. When we learn that these are insignifant elements that do not stay we begin to see that they are not worth clinging to. The understanding becomes stronger when this can be directly realised, in being aware of one element at a time, as it appears through one of the six doors, at the present moment. The more understanding there is the more detachment there will be. ------- Nina. #115615 From: Vince Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina you wrote: > N: It is the opposite: when there is more understanding it leads to > more detachment. But even the ordinary person, when he learns about > the elements, he will be more detached from the body. > [...] > The more understanding there is the more detachment there will be. also I read understanding is citta accompanied by panna because previously there was vipassana, and vipassana exists by detachment. Should we think in understanding without including the previous detachment?. What goes first?. Or better to say: Should we put any of them in first place?. It would not be clinging to the "I"? best, Vince. #115616 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:31 am Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114789) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > Just another note on this point, going to the Magga-vibhanga Sutta again, the Buddha makes absolutely clear in this "analysis of the path" that Right Concentration *is* jhana, period, no ifs ands or buts. I think that those who say that jhana is optional or is not the only meaning of right concentration should read this twice. It doesn't leave any room for variation: > > ------------------------ > > "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk ... enters & remains in the first jhana ... (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain ... he enters & remains in the fourth jhana ... This, monks, is called right concentration." > > ------------------------ > > Buddha begins this stanza by saying "And what monks, IS right concentration." Buddha then goes through the clear stages of the jhanas one by one, as he does so many times in the suttas, but here in the context of saying exactly what the path IS, and at the end of this description, which is about nothing but Jhana, says "This, monks, is called right concentration." Period, no footnotes, no exceptions. He begins by saying "What is right concentration?" And he ends by saying "This [the jhanas I have just described] is right concentration." >=============== J: When a description/definition begins with the words "There is the case where" (as in the quoted passage), it is not meant to be an exhaustive one. It is giving one particular instance as an illustration. According to orthodox Theravada, the Path factors are mental factors that co-arise at moments of Path consciousness. They are not skills to be separately and individually developed. So the reference to the 4 jhanas (as with the reference to the 4 right efforts) must be seen in that context. A couple of points to consider. First, if the attainment of a certain level of mundane jhana (say, 1st jhana) was being specified as a prerequisite for path consciousness, then it would not be necessary to mention levels higher than that. Yet these sutta descriptions always mention all 4 levels of jhana. Secondly, if the path factors are skills to be separately developed, and if the descriptions of the individual path factors are taken as you would read them, then persons who have never heard the teachings could develop most, if not all, of those factors. There would be nothing `exclusive' about the path. >=============== > [RE:] I can accept the dry insight explanation that an exceptional individual who develops insight to a very high degree may develop concentration of the first jhana which allows them a bridge to enlightenment, but this is an alternate path, not the main path, and it is clear that the main path, and the most worthy path, is the path that includes the succession through the jhanas. It's not a side-issue. Those who become enlightened merely by hearing the teachings are very rare exceptions among the rare exceptions of the Buddha's time. We should not fool ourselves into thinking that we can ignore the issue of jhana and hope that we will be lucky enough to be of the highest mental type that will be capable of dry insight without the benefit of strong development of samatha into the jhanas. >=============== J: The Buddha and all the senior disciples attained enlightenment with jhana as basis. I may be misreading you, but doesn't this contradict what you say here? According to the orthodox Theravada reading, the attainment of enlightenment with jhana as basis is the higher form of attainment. Jon #115617 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:34 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (114790) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > [J:] Completion may require the fulfilling of multiple conditions (e.g., not only a certain intention but also a certain outcome). > > [RE:] In the world of paramatha dhammas, how do you define an "outcome?" Is it an action in the world of rupa, or is it an experience in the world of citta? >=============== J: For example, the kamma patha that is the taking of another's life involves the death of another being (without that, the kamma is not *completed*). Jon #115618 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:41 am Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114792) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > [J:] The individual path factors are not actions or qualities to be separately undertaken or developed. > > [RE:] I think that is a matter of opinion, one that may not be easily resolved. I see many places where Buddha admonishes people to do things with reference to one path factor or another, and does not talk about them as continuously interrelated momentary arising mental factors, but we have argued about this before. >=============== J: I'd be interested to see an example of the Buddha "admonishing people to do things with reference to one path factor or another". I don't think that's how he spoke of the path factors. In the passage you quote immediately below, for example, there is no admonishing to do, only a description. >=============== > From SN 45.8 > Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech. > > "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action. > > "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood. >=============== J: These 3 path factors are the 3 abstentions (virati). Abstaining from lying (for example) means not lying when the opportunity and inclination is there. It means actual abstention, not merely speaking truthfully. So it's not something that can be `practised' at a chosen time. >=============== > [RE:] "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen." >=============== J: This is also descriptive rather than exhortative. I think you'd agree that only kusala effort could qualify as right effort. So that would rule out deliberate effort of the kind associated with any kind of deliberate practice, which is bound to involve many (even mostly) akusala moments. >=============== > [RE:] Note that 'right effort' is not an arising factor of consciousness but a "formal" effort. The monk "generates desire." He "endeavors." He "activates persistence." He "exerts his intent." Of course you can reinterpret this to somehow make it a passive arising if you like, but it's not what the sutta states or implies. >=============== J: It's a matter of conventional language (the language of the suttas) being used to refer to dhammas. If the mental factor of panna is present in a stream of cittas, it is said in conventional speech that the person understands/has understanding; if sati, that the person is aware/has awareness; if dosa, that the person is angry; if lobha, that the person has attachment; and if viriya, that the person is making an effort or striving. There are instances throughout the sutta pitaka of dhammas being referred to in terms of conventional mental `activities'. >=============== > Buddha could have said "persistence and intent arises in his mind," but he did not, he used the active form and credited these actions of right effort to the monk himself. I think if Buddha were to post on dsg and say that the monk "activates persistence and exerts his intent" he would have a big argument with Ken H, who would tell him he had misinterpreted his own teachings, and that this statement was full of self-view. :-) >=============== J: ;-)). Of course, it's not a matter of the manner of expression, but of the underlying meaning. We all use the shorthand of conventional language when discussing dhamma. As did the Buddha. And on the subejct of conventional language as shorthand for dhammas, I'd suggest that the greater the level of understanding of the listener (such as those who were ready for enlightenment), the more abbreviated the verbal shorthand could be ;-)). >=============== > > J: The taking of one kind of kusala for another may not be as innocuous a matter as you suggest. If for example there's the taking of samatha for insight, there cannot be the development of insight (and this is the main condition for hearing the teachings again in a future lifetime). > > [RE:] Oh, okay, that is an important point. I still don't understand how insight develops in lieu of direct discernment. Is it through nimitta, or how does it work? >=============== J: Insight *is* direct discernment (but I may be missing your point). >=============== > > J: We should be wary of any technique or practice that was not recommended by the Buddha (even if it sounds like something we think he would have approve of ;-)). > > [RE:] How about if it's something he actually said? ;-) >=============== J: OK, then let's have a look at your best example from the suttas of something the Buddha actually said. Actual text, please (not a paraphrase that puts the bias in your favour ;-)) Jon #115619 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:05 am Subject: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi KenO (114797) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon and Rob E > > In supramudane, the path factors come as one, not so for mundane. So it is not > correct to say the path factor comes in unison in mundane factor as there > could be right concentration without the right speech, right livelihood and > right action. >=============== J: Agree in part with what you say here. Not all path factors arise at moment of mundane path. Only if there is a moment of actual abstinence will one of the 3 abstinences arise (and then it always only 1 of the 3). But as I understand the texts, the other 5 path factors all arise at mundane path moment. >=============== It is not necessary to have right panna to arise also because > when one applied right action at a situation it can be without panna. >=============== J: I don't understand your reference to `applying right action to a situation'. Right action is one of the 3 abstinences, namely abstinence from wrong action. >=============== > > Nowhere in the text said that if panna don't arise, it is not known as mundane > right path factor. On the other hand, the text said about mundane and > supramundane virture, concentration and insight and those with cankers are > mundane and those without are suparmundane. >=============== J: Sorry, but I'm missing your point here. Jon #115620 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:19 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114794) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: To my understanding, the middle path is neither the idea that 'the development of the path requires the doing of some particular thing(s)' nor the idea that 'there is nothing that can be done'. > > > > When there is an understanding of the importance of seeing dhammas as they truly are, there will from time to time be the kind of reflection that conditions some appreciation of what that means at the practical level. > > [RE:] Well, leaving the reflection aside for a moment in your very intriguing statement, and whether or not one is at a point where they can truly appreciate its importance, what does seeing dhammas as they truly are mean at a practical level? Can you put that into a statement, or is it ineffable? In what sense is "seeing dhammas" not standing still, yet not taking action, if it happens without any doing? In terms of action and the sutta, is it not then a form of standing still? >=============== J: `Seeing dhammas as they truly are' is a reference to the arising of panna of the level of insight. It's neither an action to be done, nor something that happens without cause. It is the seeing of dhammas by panna that is the basis for the understanding of the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. >=============== > > J: You are right in suggesting that when giving the path factors the Buddha did not say in so many words that they were the co-arising mental factors of (momentary) path consciousness. > > > > But neither did he say they were aspects of the path to be separately developed by deliberate 'practice'. > > Well actually he did say in many many cases, as I have quoted in my recent post on the sutta on the "analysis of the path," very specific things to do or avoid doing which he defined directly *as* the path factors, so you are contradicted on that point. >=============== J: You read the path factors as things to be separately developed by deliberate practice, but that is a particular interpretation you are giving to the text. Take for example the following: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech." As explained in my earlier post, there can only be abstention where there is the opportunity and inclination. This is not something that can be `practised'. The occasion arises by circumstances, and cannot be replicated by deliberate action. >=============== > There is a difference between interpretation and contradiction. In my view, if you have to contradict what the sutta clearly says in order to interpret it, you are disagreeing with it. > > I am always eager to learn the correct interpretation of the Dhamma from those who have studied it longer and harder than I have, but I have to see some evidence to understand the interpretation's connection to the suttas. If it's a matter of faith in the Abhidhamma commentaries, or to a particular interpretation of the commentaries, then that is worth stating, and then I can evaluate them in that light. If there is a clear bridge, on the other hand, from the sutta to your view of it, then that would be worth knowing so I can see how it makes the case. >=============== J: As I understand it, it is the orthodox Theravada interpretation of the teaching that the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are the mental factors that co-arise at path moment. Whether that is what the Buddha really meant is not something that can be `proved' or `disproved' just by discussion such as we are having now. I mention this not to argue a case but because I think the explanations given by the ancient texts are worth keeping in mind as one considers the teachings. Jon #115621 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:28 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114794) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > [RE:] I don't see what all of that has to do with the "middle way." I mean you can say the 8fold noble path is the middle way, but I don't see the explanation of how the 8fold noble path comes to be seen as the middle way. There has to be a reason why it is "middle" rather than an extreme. How does the 8fold path avoid being an "extreme" path on either side in your view? What does it avoid by being a path of the 8 factors you mention? What is "middle" about them? > > > > J: It is a middle way simply because it is a moment of co-arising mental factors that occur by virtue of specific conditions, rather than being something that occurs by virtue of a deliberate practice (on the one hand) or something that happens by mere chance/doing nothing (on the other). > > [RE:] So it is in the middle of mere chance and intentional action. I'm not sure if those are the two poles that Buddha outline. Could you show me where the middle way nature of the 8fold path is made clear in that way? >=============== J: The standard teaching on what is meant by "middle" in the Middle Way is the following (from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, entry for `majjhimā-patipadā'): ******************************* 'Middle Path', is the Noble Eightfold Path which, by avoiding the two extremes of sensual lust and self-torment, leads to enlightenment and deliverance from suffering. "To give oneself up to indulgence in sensual pleasure (kāma-sukha), the base, common, vulgar, unholy, unprofitable; and also to give oneself up to self-torment (atta-kilamatha), the painful, unholy, unprofitable, both these two extremes the Perfect One has avoided and has found the Middle Path (s. magga), which causes one both to see and to know, and which leads to peace, to discernment, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. "It is the Noble Eightfold Path, the way that leads to the extinction of suffering, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right bodily action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration" (S. LVI, 11). ******************************* But I do think that the extremes of intentional action and mere chance fit the sutta reference to `striving' and `standing still' in the sutta passage about crossing the stream. >=============== > > J: To my understanding, with certain notable exceptions, the details of bare samatha/jhana development were widely known at the time of the Buddha's birth. What the Buddha mostly taught as regards samatha/jhana was how that development could go hand in hand with the development of insight, and how the jhana citta itself could be object of insight. > > [RE:] In the sutta that I keep referring to, which is Buddha's own "analysis of the path," he baldly states that the development of the 4 jhanas *is* right concentration, no ifs, ands or buts. He never says it the way you are stating it, that "if you happen to be good at jhana, you can make it the object of insight." He states quite clearly that it is one of the most important path factors, period, one of the eight, and he does not mention any other substitutions that stand in for "right concentration" other than jhana. I would like to see how you interpret this statement in order to see it otherwise. This is one of those cases where you appear to be directly contradicting the Buddha's clearly stated program in order to adhere to an interpretation that is not in the the suttas that he spoke. >=============== J: My comments above were made in reference to passages such as the Satipatthana Sutta section on breathing, and the Anapanasati Sutta, rather than the 4 jhanas as the path factor of Right Concentration. As regards the 4 jhanas as Right Concentration, the orthodox Theravada teaching is that at the moment of supramundane path consciousness the accompanying concentration is of a level equivalent to that one or other of the 4 jhanas (i.e., nothing to do with the development of mundane jhana). >=============== > > [J:] As regards the reason for the reference to counting breath, you see it as something to be done to help make kusala arise when there might not otherwise be kusala. > > [RE:] I don't just see it that way, it is clearly stated that way. If you are now saying that Buddhaghosa also had a problem with wrong view, well, the list is getting longer of the great interpreters of Buddhism that don't seem to know what's really going on, but otherwise, it is clear enough. It is a step-by-step program, and Buddhaghosa says that once concentration is well established, the counting can be dispensed with. How could it be any clearer? >=============== J: My comment was that the passage does not state (or imply) that the counting of breath is something to be done to help make kusala arise when there might not otherwise be kusala. That is a meaning that you infer because of the significance you attach to the reference to `beginner'. But as I've pointed out, the beginner here is someone who has already developed samatha to a relatively high degree and is ready to devote his life to attaining jhana (in addition to the development of insight). (Just for reference, your earlier message with the passage from Vism is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113603) Jon PS BTW, if you check the link I've just given you'll find the passage regarding those cows that behave so strangely. First quoted by you, not by me ;-)) #115622 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:50 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114794) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Let me go back to my question in an earlier post that I don't think you have answered yet (apologies if you have but I've overlooked it): Where would be the kusala in concentrating on the breath and counting the in- and out-breaths? Neither concentration nor counting is inherently kusala. > > [RE:] Well the answer is that one step leads to another, and the kusala is in the intent to follow the Buddha's program, I guess. >=============== J: I'm afraid there is no such description of kusala in the texts. The idea you mention here sounds like it has an element of conventional faith to it: if I do the prescribed activity with the right mindset then I'm going to be developing kusala. >=============== > [RE:] Or else you could say it is in the skillfulness developed that allows one to develop insight based on the skill that has been gained. I don't believe that everything is everything. There are steps in all skills and all endeavors. One doesn't say that finger exercises are useless for learning piano because they are not artistic and one has to play Chopin before having any skill development. >=============== J: Any concentration developed is either kusala or akusala. There is no such thing as concentration that is not itself kusala yet is a support for kusala. (So the piano practice analogy does not apply to the development of the path.) >=============== > [RE:] Developing concentration is a good in its own right because it allows the path to be followed to the next step. >=============== J: Although concentration is a factor of the path, it's not a step in a step-by-step process (what would be the steps before and after?). >=============== [RE:] It's not that strange if one sees the path as one of increasing skill as opposed to the continuous re-arising of magical kusala, based only on past kusala, with no skill, practice or development involved. >=============== J: Just as akusala arises based on past akusala, so does kusala. There are instances of kusala in our day-to-day lives occurring spontaneously in the sense of not being preceded by any idea of `having/developing kusala'. Naturally arising kusala cannot be replicated by any kind of deliberate practice. >=============== > > J: To my understanding, there cannot be the cultivation of samatha unless there is already an understanding of (kusala) calm as the distinguishing factor of all kinds of kusala, and this means the development of kusala in general. > > [RE:] Well we are not going to agree on this. I believe in the psychophysiology of practice as well as the development of awareness. >=============== J: Textual basis for the `psychophysiology of practice'? Not asking for those particular words, of course, but anything suggestive of the underlying concept of `practice makes perfect' in the context of the development of the path. >=============== > [RE:] By calming the breath and calming the body, the body, the perception and the mind becomes calmer and more attentive. Worrying about kusala while developing samatha does not promote calm or kusala, just anxiety and akusala. It is kusala to enter samatha or insight development with an open mind and with faith in the Buddha. It is not necessary to be hooked up to a lie detector to make sure no subtle kusala is lurking about. I believe that subtle akusala will become apparent as awareness becomes more refined, and obvious akusala will be...obvious. >=============== J: Well it is no doubt true that subtle akusala becomes more apparent as awareness becomes more refined. But the question we're discussing is what that awareness is in the first place. >=============== > > J: There can be no anapanasati unless there is first the intellectual understanding of what the kusala involved is. So again the question as to where the kusala lies in concentrating on the breath. > > [RE:] I disagree with what I see as an essentially intellectual formulation of a non-intellectual practice. There is no way to check for the last drop of akusala or get your kusala certified. One would have to wait forever to practice anything, and that is exactly the conclusion that you draw: it is only safe to read, study, discuss and understand, not to do anything. I just don't agree. I believe that the Buddha's practice is purifying and creates kusala. I don't have to root it out so thoroughly before ever sitting and attending a breath. It is the Buddha's way of discernment. >=============== J: I was not suggesting any of the above ;-)) If a person doesn't understand what is kusala about dana (generosity) or sila, he/she may still have dana but would not be able to develop that quality to a high degree. It's the same with samatha, which is the calm associated with kusala consciousness. If a person doesn't understand what is kusala about contemplation with kasina or breath as object, there cannot be its development with those objects. It's not as though the kusala nature of that contemplation becomes apparent by virtue of `practising' the activity of focusing on a kasina/the breath. >=============== > > J: You seem to be assuming that (mere) concentration on the breath (with or without counting) is, or will lead to, kusala of the samatha kind. So easy! ;-). > > [RE:] No, I am assuming that sincere effort, combined wiht an understanding of the purpose of the practice, will lead to kusala results, possibly with many bumps in the road; but it is a kusala practice to undertake. >=============== J: Only kusala now can lead to (more) kusala later. So the `practice' starts with any moment of kusala that arises in a day. These would include those moments of kusala that arise because of what one has heard and considered about the teachings. But these are not deliberate actions to be undertaken as a practice. >=============== > [RE:] And following the Buddha's instructions, consulting sutta, and maintaining openness with regard to results, will help. >=============== J: If the suttas are read with an open mind, there are no `instructions' there to be followed. >=============== > > [J:] As I said earlier in this thread, neither the fact of concentration nor the fact that breath is the object (nor the combination of the 2) can make consciousness kusala. > > [RE:] But it is a part of the practice, not all of it, and a part of the practice that can lead to a skill that applies to the path. There is nothing wrong with that, and the path itself is ultimately purifying. >=============== J: What you seem to be saying is that one starts the practice with a sincere intention and the practice takes care of the (inevitable) akusala. Unfortunately, sincere intention neither corresponds to, nor leads to, kusala. There is accumulated kusala of different kinds. From time to time kusala of one kind or another arises, spontaneously (not requiring deliberate effort or intention on our part). This can be the basis for development. >=============== > [RE:] If I develop calm and I know that without insight the calm will not complete the path, I am going to be aware of that and undertake a balanced practice, taking into account what the Buddha says to do at each stage. It's not just whistling in the dark. When insight arises, then the path gets more certain and the direction more clear. When obstacles arise, one deals with them and works through the akusala. The path allows for all things to be treated with calm and insight and the further development of both. >=============== J: The only calm that is kusala is the calm that arises with kusala consciousness. An induced calm is unlikely to be kusala. But fortunately kusala calm does arise from time to time, spontaneously. No need to try to have it at other times ;-)) Jon #115623 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:56 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Alex (114796) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, Jon, all, > ... > A parable of ladder leading to some place: ... > > In Dhamma it is the same. One clings to the certain stage, and then when it has fulfilled the purpose, one lets it go and attach to the next stage. If one doesn't properly cling, and cling hard, then one will simply not progress in Dhamma. One will be blown by the strongest current, which is kilesas for us. Just like one was being blown in samsara for all this time... >=============== J: It's true that there is clinging to the teachings, and that this is only abandoned as progress is made. But I don't think we can say, on the basis of that observation, that `if one doesn't properly cling, and cling hard, one will not progress in Dhamma'. That would be quite a stretch, and not something the Buddha ever said or implied. Jon #115624 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:01 pm Subject: don't jump off the raft in the middle of the sea truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, > J: It's true that there is clinging to the teachings, and that this >is only abandoned as progress is made. As I understand it, it is abandoned between Anagami and Arhat stage. >> But I don't think we can say, on the basis of that observation, >that >`if one doesn't properly cling, and cling hard, one will not >progress >in Dhamma'. That would be quite a stretch, and not >something the >Buddha ever said or implied. Until one is Arahan, one is going to cling to something, we can't help it. We might as well cling to doing good (rather than clinging to doing bad, akusala). IMHO, if a worldling doesn't cling to doing good, typically s/he clings to doing bad. And I hope that we agree that Dhamma is the best object of clinging till certain time when clinging is no longer necessary for more kusala. Of course, once that strategic clinging has done its purpose, one lets go off the raft. But you wouldn't want to let go of the raft in the middle of the sea in the name of progress to the other shore! I've heard that it is a radical Mahayana concept of not-clinging to Dhamma. It would be like jumping off the raft in middle of the sea or not using it to cross the sea at all... As we know, this would not get one to the other shore. With metta, Alex #115625 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:10 am Subject: The Purpose! bhikkhu5 Friends: Mental Purification induces pure Happiness! The purpose of purification of Morality is purification of Mentality! The purpose of purification of Mind is the purification of Understanding! The purpose of purification of Understanding is the overcoming of Doubt! The purpose of overcoming Doubt is knowing what to do & what not to do! The purpose of knowing what to do & not do is purification of the Method! The purpose of purification of the Method is purity of Knowledge & Vision! The purpose of purification of Knowledge & Vision is Release of all clinging! The purpose of Relinquishing all clinging is the only Supreme Bliss: Nibb�na... <...> The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nik�ya. Sutta 24 Relays. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * <...> #115626 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Robert) - In a message dated 6/11/2011 9:19:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: J: You read the path factors as things to be separately developed by deliberate practice, but that is a particular interpretation you are giving to the text. Take for example the following: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech." As explained in my earlier post, there can only be abstention where there is the opportunity and inclination. This is not something that can be `practised'. The occasion arises by circumstances, and cannot be replicated by deliberate action. =================================== Jon, there is the following, in which please note the emphatic, energetic, proactive terminology "generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of ..." I find "activates persistence" and "upholds & exerts his intent" to be particularly proactive. This is purposeful, willful directing of the mind. It is admittedly not an immediate, willful heading off of akusala, or cutting off of already arisen akusala, or promoting the arising of kusala, or furthering of already arisen kusala, but it IS an intentional cultivation of mind for the sake of such occurrences happening automatically. It is a preparation, a training, a cultivation. "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) ================================== With metta, Howard "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #115627 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:56 pm Subject: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. nilovg Dear friends, Phil: Momentary death is a topic that interests me. There is conventional death, and a lot of emphasis on momentary death. Kh S: It means the understanding of reality right now which arises and falls away. Ph: Momentary death of citta, I can only think about it with attachment, but I do not have any understanding of it. Conventional life and death is a great object for creating conditions for, hopefully, now being aware of the present reality. But I think that the recollection of ageing, illness, death and separation are very helpful topics of reflection. But sometimes I feel frustrated; Nina always seems to go straight to the citta. Sukin: Do you think that understanding of conventional death will lead to understanding of momentary death? Or is it the understanding of the present moment that will lead to it? Sarah: Phil’s comment is that thinking on conventional death, on the end of life, sickness and separation can be a condition for wise reflection and calm; and that if one emphasizes too much on momentary death it is something one can’t really appreciate. Kh S: How can there be conventional death without momentary death? Ph: It is just a concept but it is taught by the Buddha for motivating understanding. Kh S: It is still “I”, so it cannot eradicate the idea of self. Sarah: When we read in the suttas about conventional death and about reflection on the passing of this life, is the Buddha really pointing to momentary death? Kh S: To develop understanding. Ph: In the commentary to the Dhammapada the Buddha states that in our next life we will receive results of the deeds we did in previous lives. Also in the commentaries we are encouraged to think about what we are taking to the next life. Kh S: And to understand momentary death too. Sarah: Even in the commentaries we read about conventional death but we have to know that what the Buddha taught is about momentary death. Kh S: It depends on the understanding of the reader. Ph: On the reader’s level of understanding. Kh S: When we talk about death, what about reality right now to be known before death? If we carefully consider the words about death it encourages understanding of the reality right now. Ph: Could thinking about conventional death obstruct understanding? Kh S: It depends. It can condition the arising of understanding of reality right now. Just accumulate the understanding of reality, that is the best way. There should be no expectation as to when it will arise and become direct understanding, or as to having more understanding. It accumulates. Q: How are accumulations transferred in the dying process, and how to see that in relation to anattaa? Kh S: Exactly the same as a moment ago and now. ****** Nina. #115628 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) nilovg Hi Howard and Jon, May I butt in? Op 12-jun-2011, om 13:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Jon, there is the following, in which please note the emphatic, > energetic, proactive terminology "generates desire, endeavors, > activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of ..." > I find "activates persistence" and "upholds & exerts his intent" to be > particularly proactive. This is purposeful, willful directing of > the mind. > It is admittedly not an immediate, willful heading off of akusala, or > cutting off of already arisen akusala, or promoting the arising of > kusala, or > furthering of already arisen kusala, but it IS an intentional > cultivation of > mind for the sake of such occurrences happening automatically. It is a > preparation, a training, a cultivation. ------- N: What is said in the suttas about right effort is exactly the same as what Kh Sujin says about the present moment: what about this moment, what about understanding the reality appearing right now. Thus, no, delay, right now. Develop right understanding with unfailing energy. Never being tired of it. Right now, right now. There is nothing else to develop right understanding of, as Ken H always reminds us. ------- Nina. #115629 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:02 am Subject: This to be Cosidered part 1 - The Right Path and the Wrong Path farrellkevin80 Dear All, We tend to think there is a Right Path and a Wrong Path, but is this really so? Where is this "path"? The idea is only pannatti, and therefore it is papanca. It is not "this moment". In truth there is no "path" to be walked, there are just ultimates. If Right Understanding arises it arises. If it does not, then it does not. There is no person that can make or cause this to arise. No person that is affected. Only impersonal elements, which are nama and rupa. Can it be developed? No. If there are conditions, there will be some degree of understanding, and there may also be conditions to study and consider Abhidhamma more and more. Then, wisdom may develop, but it is still just ultimates. No one causes this to arise. Is wisdom yourself or is it just dhammas? So what paths? Path is a conventional term. Sure when all the cetasikas that are path factors arise we can be said to be on the path. But who is on the path? Isn't it just nama and rupa arisng now? No person and no path. Go away from Pannatti. That is the 'path', or more accurately the ground where wisdom can develop - wisdom which is not self, not my self, not your self. Forget about pannatti and study ultimates. The only 'path' is understanding right now, if there can be said to be one at all. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115630 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:13 pm Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114789) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > Just another note on this point, going to the Magga-vibhanga Sutta again, the Buddha makes absolutely clear in this "analysis of the path" that Right Concentration *is* jhana, period, no ifs ands or buts. I think that those who say that jhana is optional or is not the only meaning of right concentration should read this twice. It doesn't leave any room for variation: > > > > ------------------------ > > > > "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk ... enters & remains in the first jhana ... (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain ... he enters & remains in the fourth jhana ... This, monks, is called right concentration." > > > > ------------------------ > > > > Buddha begins this stanza by saying "And what monks, IS right concentration." Buddha then goes through the clear stages of the jhanas one by one, as he does so many times in the suttas, but here in the context of saying exactly what the path IS, and at the end of this description, which is about nothing but Jhana, says "This, monks, is called right concentration." Period, no footnotes, no exceptions. He begins by saying "What is right concentration?" And he ends by saying "This [the jhanas I have just described] is right concentration." > >=============== > > J: When a description/definition begins with the words "There is the case where" (as in the quoted passage), it is not meant to be an exhaustive one. It is giving one particular instance as an illustration. It's funny that this is the example that Buddha always gives for right concentration. It is not just an example, the form in which he begins and ends makes it clear that it is definitional, no matter what form, according to the custom of the day, he frames it with. Your small syntactical technicality there is called upon to defeat the entire structure of the sutta, which is not ambiguous in its intent. > According to orthodox Theravada, What do you define as Orthodox Theravada, that is separate or different from the clear meaning of the sutta? From what scriptures do you derive what you call orthodox Theravada? > the Path factors are mental factors that co-arise at moments of Path consciousness. They are not skills to be separately and individually developed. Then why on earth does Buddha constantly refer to them that way? Can you explain? > So the reference to the 4 jhanas (as with the reference to the 4 right efforts) must be seen in that context. No, I don't agree. The context in which they should be considered is set by the Buddha, not some other body of work. Buddha sets the context and we are to regard what he says in the context in which he frames it. Where are you getting an orthodox context that is not set out by the Buddha himself? Please reference this clearly. > A couple of points to consider. First, if the attainment of a certain level of mundane jhana (say, 1st jhana) was being specified as a prerequisite for path consciousness, then it would not be necessary to mention levels higher than that. Yet these sutta descriptions always mention all 4 levels of jhana. Because the path includes all 4 levels. They are part of the systematic pathway to enlightenment, as Buddha explains. While all 4 define right concentration, right concentration is not completed by one or the other jhanas. It is after the second jhana that proliferative thought totally ceases, for instance. > Secondly, if the path factors are skills to be separately developed, and if the descriptions of the individual path factors are taken as you would read them, then persons who have never heard the teachings could develop most, if not all, of those factors. There would be nothing `exclusive' about the path. That is assuming that someone who was unaware of the teachings could achieve jhana correctly. I would not agree that this is the case. The deep samadhi states cultivated in yoga for instance are missing the development of insight, and Buddha clearly discusses in other suttas how the jhanic platform is used for the development of insight. Without mindful involvement with the jhanas, they are not Buddhist jhanas. It is by seeing the jhana as impermanent and not-self that one moves from one jhana to the next in Buddhism. They are not the same. This idea that jhana is not a Buddhist practice does not take into account the changes that Buddha made in the practice of traditional attainments. > >=============== > > [RE:] I can accept the dry insight explanation that an exceptional individual who develops insight to a very high degree may develop concentration of the first jhana which allows them a bridge to enlightenment, but this is an alternate path, not the main path, and it is clear that the main path, and the most worthy path, is the path that includes the succession through the jhanas. It's not a side-issue. Those who become enlightened merely by hearing the teachings are very rare exceptions among the rare exceptions of the Buddha's time. We should not fool ourselves into thinking that we can ignore the issue of jhana and hope that we will be lucky enough to be of the highest mental type that will be capable of dry insight without the benefit of strong development of samatha into the jhanas. > >=============== > > J: The Buddha and all the senior disciples attained enlightenment with jhana as basis. I may be misreading you, but doesn't this contradict what you say here? > > According to the orthodox Theravada reading, the attainment of enlightenment with jhana as basis is the higher form of attainment. I was not contradicting that at all. That is the argument I've been making all along. I was just tipping my hat to the possibility of dry insight in the case of exceptional individuals who attain enlightenment through hearing the teachings or through other means of direct insight. But the way in which Buddha expected most to follow the path was by way of both insight and samatha to the level of jhana. Both are necessary. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #115631 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:14 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114790) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > [J:] Completion may require the fulfilling of multiple conditions (e.g., not only a certain intention but also a certain outcome). > > > > [RE:] In the world of paramatha dhammas, how do you define an "outcome?" Is it an action in the world of rupa, or is it an experience in the world of citta? > >=============== > > J: For example, the kamma patha that is the taking of another's life involves the death of another being (without that, the kamma is not *completed*). And from the standpoint of paramatha dhammas, what is "the death of another being" in reality [since there are in truth no such beings?] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #115632 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:30 pm Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114792) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > [RE:] Note that 'right effort' is not an arising factor of consciousness but a "formal" effort. The monk "generates desire." He "endeavors." He "activates persistence." He "exerts his intent." Of course you can reinterpret this to somehow make it a passive arising if you like, but it's not what the sutta states or implies. > >=============== > > J: It's a matter of conventional language (the language of the suttas) being used to refer to dhammas. I do not see any evidence that this is the case. What specific evidence leads you to believe that Buddha's plain speech is referring to dhammas rather than to what he says it is referring to? > If the mental factor of panna is present in a stream of cittas, it is said in conventional speech that the person understands/has understanding; if sati, that the person is aware/has awareness; if dosa, that the person is angry; if lobha, that the person has attachment; and if viriya, that the person is making an effort or striving. > > There are instances throughout the sutta pitaka of dhammas being referred to in terms of conventional mental `activities'. > > >=============== > > Buddha could have said "persistence and intent arises in his mind," but he did not, he used the active form and credited these actions of right effort to the monk himself. I think if Buddha were to post on dsg and say that the monk "activates persistence and exerts his intent" he would have a big argument with Ken H, who would tell him he had misinterpreted his own teachings, and that this statement was full of self-view. :-) > >=============== > > J: ;-)). Of course, it's not a matter of the manner of expression, but of the underlying meaning. We all use the shorthand of conventional language when discussing dhamma. As did the Buddha. And on the subejct of conventional language as shorthand for dhammas, I'd suggest that the greater the level of understanding of the listener (such as those who were ready for enlightenment), the more abbreviated the verbal shorthand could be ;-)). ... > > > J: We should be wary of any technique or practice that was not recommended by the Buddha (even if it sounds like something we think he would have approve of ;-)). > > > > [RE:] How about if it's something he actually said? ;-) > >=============== > > J: OK, then let's have a look at your best example from the suttas of something the Buddha actually said. Actual text, please (not a paraphrase that puts the bias in your favour ;-)) It doesn't matter if I quote the sutta or not, as I do above. The Buddha often spoke in the manner of the day, in which he would say "There is the case where..." but I would say that is just a convention. You on the other hand say that the actual descriptions he gave were 'just conventional language' and that he meant something else, which you interpret through commentary. If we can't agree that the Buddha actually said what he said and meant it, then it is very difficult to give evidence of any kind. I go by what the Buddha said. If he says the monk ""activates persistence and exerts his intent" that *is* direct evidence, not a paraphrase, that the Buddha is saying that activating persistence and exerting his intent is right effort. But you don't accept that direct evidence. You say it is conventional language and dismiss it. All I can say is that I don't agree with that, and if you want to say that is only conventional language, a shorthand for paramatha dhammas, you should be able to present something somewhere where the Buddha said that; otherwise it is your own philosophical inclination that leads you to that conclusion. My quote, my evidence, is here, and I have just requoted it in this paragraph. Please refute it by some form of evidence, rather than your idea, which has not been substantiated, that it does not mean what it says. Here is what the Buddha says: The monk "generates desire." He "endeavors." He "activates persistence." He "exerts his intent." These are quotes, as you requested, not paraphrases. Please show some direct evidence that he is not saying that the monk's right effort actually consists of "generating desire," "endeavoring," "activating persistence" and "exerting intent," all volitional actions, not paramatha dhammas, which Buddha says the monk does in practicing right effort. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - #115633 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:38 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: `Seeing dhammas as they truly are' is a reference to the arising of panna of the level of insight. It's neither an action to be done, nor something that happens without cause. > > It is the seeing of dhammas by panna that is the basis for the understanding of the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > >=============== > > > J: You are right in suggesting that when giving the path factors the Buddha did not say in so many words that they were the co-arising mental factors of (momentary) path consciousness. > > > > > > But neither did he say they were aspects of the path to be separately developed by deliberate 'practice'. > > > > Well actually he did say in many many cases, as I have quoted in my recent post on the sutta on the "analysis of the path," very specific things to do or avoid doing which he defined directly *as* the path factors, so you are contradicted on that point. > >=============== > > J: You read the path factors as things to be separately developed by deliberate practice, but that is a particular interpretation you are giving to the text. Take for example the following: > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech." > > As explained in my earlier post, there can only be abstention where there is the opportunity and inclination. This is not something that can be `practised'. The occasion arises by circumstances, and cannot be replicated by deliberate action. What about the rest of the sutta? Not all the factors are merely a matter of abstention. How about some other examples? > >=============== > > There is a difference between interpretation and contradiction. In my view, if you have to contradict what the sutta clearly says in order to interpret it, you are disagreeing with it. > > > > I am always eager to learn the correct interpretation of the Dhamma from those who have studied it longer and harder than I have, but I have to see some evidence to understand the interpretation's connection to the suttas. If it's a matter of faith in the Abhidhamma commentaries, or to a particular interpretation of the commentaries, then that is worth stating, and then I can evaluate them in that light. If there is a clear bridge, on the other hand, from the sutta to your view of it, then that would be worth knowing so I can see how it makes the case. > >=============== > > J: As I understand it, it is the orthodox Theravada interpretation of the teaching that the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are the mental factors that co-arise at path moment. You have referred to your understanding of orthodox Theravada interpretation here and recently in another post, but you do not cite where that is contained or which teachings or teachers are responsible for the "orthodox" teaching. Can you please specify and give an example? I do not know where the "orthodox" teaching is contained or wherein you are referencing it. Do you mean Abhidhamma and commentary? Is that the orthodox teaching in your view? > Whether that is what the Buddha really meant is not something that can be `proved' or `disproved' just by discussion such as we are having now. > > I mention this not to argue a case but because I think the explanations given by the ancient texts are worth keeping in mind as one considers the teachings. That is fine, as long as we can clearly state where we are deriving our view. If it is from commentaries, then I would appreciate knowing that and having an example or two to consider, that you see as expressing this orthodox interpretation. I would also like to know what is "orthodox" about it? Does everyone in Theravada agree that this is the traditional interpretation, or is it a matter of division between various schools? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #115634 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:57 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > >=============== > > > J: To my understanding, with certain notable exceptions, the details of bare samatha/jhana development were widely known at the time of the Buddha's birth. What the Buddha mostly taught as regards samatha/jhana was how that development could go hand in hand with the development of insight, and how the jhana citta itself could be object of insight. > > > > [RE:] In the sutta that I keep referring to, which is Buddha's own "analysis of the path," he baldly states that the development of the 4 jhanas *is* right concentration, no ifs, ands or buts. He never says it the way you are stating it, that "if you happen to be good at jhana, you can make it the object of insight." He states quite clearly that it is one of the most important path factors, period, one of the eight, and he does not mention any other substitutions that stand in for "right concentration" other than jhana. I would like to see how you interpret this statement in order to see it otherwise. This is one of those cases where you appear to be directly contradicting the Buddha's clearly stated program in order to adhere to an interpretation that is not in the the suttas that he spoke. > >=============== > > J: My comments above were made in reference to passages such as the Satipatthana Sutta section on breathing, and the Anapanasati Sutta, rather than the 4 jhanas as the path factor of Right Concentration. > > As regards the 4 jhanas as Right Concentration, the orthodox Theravada teaching is that at the moment of supramundane path consciousness the accompanying concentration is of a level equivalent to that one or other of the 4 jhanas (i.e., nothing to do with the development of mundane jhana). Well, a/ you are contradicting what the Buddha says about the jhanas. He clearly states them as states to be cultivated as part of the path in the sutta itself. b/ You are referring to what you call the "orthodox" interpretation. I would like to know where this orthodox interpretation is contained. Who is responsible for it? It appears to contradict what the Buddha says clearly and clearly wants to communicate, and if that is the case I would not consider it orthodox, but heterodox. I consider what the Buddha says to be orthodox. Perhaps you can help me clear this up. This is now the third time you have referred to the orthodox interpretation of the teachings actually contradicting what the Buddha says, so please enlighten me as to where this teaching exists. Something that contradicts what the founder of a tradition actually says cannot be its orthodoxy, unless there is an explanation or evidence that shows that this is what the founder actually meant. > >=============== > > > [J:] As regards the reason for the reference to counting breath, you see it as something to be done to help make kusala arise when there might not otherwise be kusala. > > > > [RE:] I don't just see it that way, it is clearly stated that way. If you are now saying that Buddhaghosa also had a problem with wrong view, well, the list is getting longer of the great interpreters of Buddhism that don't seem to know what's really going on, but otherwise, it is clear enough. It is a step-by-step program, and Buddhaghosa says that once concentration is well established, the counting can be dispensed with. How could it be any clearer? > >=============== > > J: My comment was that the passage does not state (or imply) that the counting of breath is something to be done to help make kusala arise when there might not otherwise be kusala. I did not say it was. It is a training device for plain old concentration so that one can attend the object in question without undue distraction. Counting breaths does not have any greater content or significance. It is technical in nature. > That is a meaning that you infer because of the significance you attach to the reference to `beginner'. I don't have to infer any meaning to it at all. I am going by what it says in the text. You don't seem to accept what is actually written in these scriptures. They are not interpretations but the actual words on the page. I'm not interpreting them, I"m reading them. You are interpreting them away from what they say by virtue of other philosophical principals or writings. I am not. You may be correct, but you have yet to demonstrate that your view is implicated in the writings themselves. > But as I've pointed out, the beginner here is someone who has already developed samatha to a relatively high degree and is ready to devote his life to attaining jhana (in addition to the development of insight). Where does it say that? > (Just for reference, your earlier message with the passage from Vism is at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113603) > > Jon > > PS BTW, if you check the link I've just given you'll find the passage regarding those cows that behave so strangely. First quoted by you, not by me ;-)) I am aware that I originally started the "controversy of the cows." I do find it very intriguing that Buddhaghosa attempted to teach counting breath, insight development and jhana practice to farm animals: "For, when he stops short of five, the state of consciousness that has arisen in a confined space is restless, like a herd of cattle shut in a cow-pen [when they are being taught to count their breaths.] ... "And the herd of cows, which have been experiencing the misery of confined space during the three watches of the night, rush out rubbing up against one another and quickly forming groups. "[It is in the "rushing out" that the cows' Right Effort is excited. In the "rubbing against one another" they clearly distinguish between nama and rupa, the "rubbing" being directly discerned as rupa, and they experience development towards the next higher stage of insight by this means.]" Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #115635 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:10 am Subject: The 3 Fermentations... bhikkhu5 Friends: There are 3 Mental Fermentations (Âsavas): The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are 3 mental fermentations. What are these three mental concoctions? 1: The mental Fermentation joined with Sensuality.. 2: The mental Fermentation linked with Becoming.. 3: The mental Fermentation associated with Ignorance.. These are the three mental fermentations. The Noble 8-fold Way is to be developed for the direct experience of these three fermentations, for the full understanding of them, for their complete elimination, and for their final overcoming, abandoning and leaving all behind... Comments: 1: The mental fermentation (?sava) linked with sensuality is the false assumption, that sensing always brings pleasure, while actually sensing also is associated with pain and also neutral feeling, which is far the most common! 2: The mental fermentation associated with becoming is like the banal yet common wishing: May I become rich, beautiful, and famous, not noticing that any becoming inevitably is associated with change, decay, death and thus suffering too! 3: The mental Fermentation associated with ignorance is the misconceptions we make by inaccurate approximation, undue generalization and over-projection: Ex: We make the observation: The horizon is linear. Then we assume, project and simplify by conceptual generalization: 'The earth must be flat', which is a false mentally 'brewed=fermented' misconception… For quite a while many would chop off your head, if you suggested anything else, than that screaming error… During biological fermentation sugar, water and yeast ferments into alcohol... The alcohol was not there to begin with... It was made up by the fermentation! During mental fermentation observations, mixed with ideas and assumptions ferments into a misconception, that was not there in the raw observation data... The misconception 'pancake earth' is not to be seen in an (almost) flat horizon! This 'pancake round disc earth' concept is a false idea fermented and invented by the mind desperately trying to predict the relations between what it sees... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya. Book [V:56] section 45: The Way. 163: The fermentations ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <...> #115636 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) farrellkevin80 Hi Robert, Jon, all, Robert E: I was not contradicting that at all. That is the argument I've been making all along. I was just tipping my hat to the possibility of dry insight in the case of exceptional individuals who attain enlightenment through hearing the teachings or through other means of direct insight. But the way in which Buddha expected most to follow the path was by way of both insight and samatha to the level of jhana. Both are necessary. Kevin: Dear Robert. Actually it's quite the opposite. The rare few that could attain jhana were mostly born during the time of the Buddha and for the most part were his disciples or the disciples of other jhana-labhi Buddhists of the time. Some were also born shortly thereafter when beings with jhana were around. The teachings are very, very clear that jhana is not needed for realization of nibbana. This is clear both in the Suttas themselves, and in the Abhidhamma itself, and the Commentaries themselves. There are many more individuals that attain through hearing and cosidering than attain through using jhana as the basis. This is what always gets me (and this is in no means a slur to you Robert by any means!), but there are always people that talk about jhana, jhana, jhana. They say jhana is necessary (it is, but they are referring to samattha jhana, not lokuttara jhana which happens by insight) and yet they talk on Buddhist forums or write books. I feel like saying: GO LIVE IN A CREMATION GROUND! Again, don't take it the wrong way Robert. The comment isn't really directed at you, but I have met so many people that tell me that samattha jhana is necessary and they are sitting there were the clothes of a layperson enjoying sense pleasures. Do these people know the first thing about insight? They even reject the Abhidhamma beforehand without even studying it, in many cases. There is no jhana, no preparary practices necessary. Right now, real dhammas with sabhava that have the three characteristics are present and can be insighted. There is no need to go somewhere else or do something else. Concentration arises now, with each and every cetasika. All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115637 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:08 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Any concentration developed is either kusala or akusala. There is no such thing as concentration that is not itself kusala yet is a support for kusala. (So the piano practice analogy does not apply to the development of the path.) It is, as long as it is not akusala. And that would depend on whether it was or not. No need to rule anything out categorically - based on what...? Piano exercises can be akusala too - one can want to practice to prove how great one is as a pianist - akusala all round. > >=============== > > [RE:] Developing concentration is a good in its own right because it allows the path to be followed to the next step. > >=============== > > J: Although concentration is a factor of the path, it's not a step in a step-by-step process (what would be the steps before and after?). Greater development of the skill. Concentration is not a monolithic blob. It is a skill factor in focusing on something. So it is developed and has degrees, and as it is developed the steps prior are lesser developed concentration, and the steps ahead are greater developed and sustained concentration, just as higher steps on a ladder are all steps on a ladder, but some are higher and some are lower. The higher ones allow a greater view of the surroundings than the lower ones. Of course, if you are convinced that concentration is a monolithic who-knows-what that descends all by itself for a moment and then disappears, it hardly bears any resemblance to anything we call or could call or could relate to as "concentration" because the word has lost all meaning; or at least any meaning that we know it to have had. > >=============== > [RE:] It's not that strange if one sees the path as one of increasing skill as opposed to the continuous re-arising of magical kusala, based only on past kusala, with no skill, practice or development involved. > >=============== > > J: Just as akusala arises based on past akusala, so does kusala. There are instances of kusala in our day-to-day lives occurring spontaneously in the sense of not being preceded by any idea of `having/developing kusala'. Naturally arising kusala cannot be replicated by any kind of deliberate practice. Well if concentration and all the other factors are something more specific than an indeterminate blob, then the question of whether they are kusala or not is just one aspect of what they are about, perhaps a very necessary one, but not one that defines exactly what they are and how they are developed. Buddha didn't say 'cultivate kusala at all costs and don't worry about what kusala it is,' instead he stressed that all of the path factors had to be developed and that one should "strive" to do so. In other words, he strongly suggested that they did not develop all by themselves without any effort, so the idea that they will come all by themselves is contradictory to his intent. Kusala or not, they have to be cultivated through right effort. > >=============== > > > J: To my understanding, there cannot be the cultivation of samatha unless there is already an understanding of (kusala) calm as the distinguishing factor of all kinds of kusala, and this means the development of kusala in general. > > > > [RE:] Well we are not going to agree on this. I believe in the psychophysiology of practice as well as the development of awareness. > >=============== > > J: Textual basis for the `psychophysiology of practice'? Not asking for those particular words, of course, but anything suggestive of the underlying concept of `practice makes perfect' in the context of the development of the path. In my view, the anapanasati sutta for instance, and the breathing instructions in the Visudhimagga clearly represent a systematic development of the skill of practice. And there are a number of references that suggest psychophysiological factors to me, such as the breathing as a vehicle for calming the bodily and mental fabrications: "...'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns, 'I am making a long turn,' or when making a short turn discerns, 'I am making a short turn'; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long' ... He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'" There is even a possible implication there, which I think would make sense physiologically from my understanding of yoga, that the lengthening and slowing of the breath influences the calming of the bodily fabrication in the above. > >=============== > > [RE:] By calming the breath and calming the body, the body, the perception and the mind becomes calmer and more attentive. Worrying about kusala while developing samatha does not promote calm or kusala, just anxiety and akusala. It is kusala to enter samatha or insight development with an open mind and with faith in the Buddha. It is not necessary to be hooked up to a lie detector to make sure no subtle kusala is lurking about. I believe that subtle akusala will become apparent as awareness becomes more refined, and obvious akusala will be...obvious. > >=============== > > J: Well it is no doubt true that subtle akusala becomes more apparent as awareness becomes more refined. But the question we're discussing is what that awareness is in the first place. We can do both - acknowledge that point and then question the form of awareness as well. Why only one or the other? > >=============== > > > J: There can be no anapanasati unless there is first the intellectual understanding of what the kusala involved is. So again the question as to where the kusala lies in concentrating on the breath. > > > > [RE:] I disagree with what I see as an essentially intellectual formulation of a non-intellectual practice. There is no way to check for the last drop of akusala or get your kusala certified. One would have to wait forever to practice anything, and that is exactly the conclusion that you draw: it is only safe to read, study, discuss and understand, not to do anything. I just don't agree. I believe that the Buddha's practice is purifying and creates kusala. I don't have to root it out so thoroughly before ever sitting and attending a breath. It is the Buddha's way of discernment. > >=============== > > J: I was not suggesting any of the above ;-)) I'm not sure what you mean - it was I who was suggesting the above. I wasn't thinking it was you. However, I am interested to hear if you feel that all akusala must be eradicated before being able to practice anapanasati or any other practice correctly. I suppose in that case it would arise by itself...? > If a person doesn't understand what is kusala about dana (generosity) or sila, he/she may still have dana but would not be able to develop that quality to a high degree. > > It's the same with samatha, which is the calm associated with kusala consciousness. If a person doesn't understand what is kusala about contemplation with kasina or breath as object, there cannot be its development with those objects. Well what kind of understanding and to what degree is necessary? I hope it doesn't have to be perfect. We can have some understanding of the good in a particular practice, but can't have a thorough understanding until we experience it through practice. So it's another one of those catch-22s, looking at it from the standpoint of "have kusala first" and "develop kusala later." > It's not as though the kusala nature of that contemplation becomes apparent by virtue of `practising' the activity of focusing on a kasina/the breath. Well it would have to to some extent; otherwise where is the knowledge coming from? By mystical innoculation? The knowledge of kasina or the breath just dawns on you one day? I think it is in practice that real knowledge is developed, so I guess we totally disagree. :-) I don't have the abstract mystical viewpoint that things that obviously make sense in practice, such as focusing on an image or object, don't mean that at all, but are actually a divine dispensation from some form of mystical kusala that descends for no practical reason from on high - no practice necessary. Kasina isn't a natural thing that exists in the world of paramatha dhammas, it's a practice item that was created for that purpose by practitioners. From Wikipedia: "The kasiṇa are typically described as a colored disk, with the particular color, properties, dimensions and medium often specified according to the type of kasiṇa. The earth kasiṇa, for instance, is a disk in a red-brown color formed by spreading earth or clay (or another medium producing similar color and texture) on a screen of canvas or another backing material. "Kasiṇa meditation is a concentration meditation (variously known in different traditions as samatha, dhyana, or jhana meditations), intended to settle the mind of the practitioner and create a foundation for further practices of meditation. In the early stages of kasiṇa meditation, a physical object is used as the object of meditation, being focused upon by the practitioner until an eidetic image of the object forms in the practitioners mind. In more advanced levels of kasiṇa meditation, only a mental image of the kasiṇa is used as an object of meditation." Kasina are *meditation objects.* They were created by and for meditators. > >=============== > > > J: You seem to be assuming that (mere) concentration on the breath (with or without counting) is, or will lead to, kusala of the samatha kind. So easy! ;-). > > > > [RE:] No, I am assuming that sincere effort, combined wiht an understanding of the purpose of the practice, will lead to kusala results, possibly with many bumps in the road; but it is a kusala practice to undertake. > >=============== > > J: Only kusala now can lead to (more) kusala later. So the `practice' starts with any moment of kusala that arises in a day. These would include those moments of kusala that arise because of what one has heard and considered about the teachings. But these are not deliberate actions to be undertaken as a practice. Yes, that outlines nicely what we disagree about. I don't believe in random kusala that leads to more random kusala. I believe in cultivation through practice. > >=============== > > [RE:] And following the Buddha's instructions, consulting sutta, and maintaining openness with regard to results, will help. > >=============== > > J: If the suttas are read with an open mind, there are no `instructions' there to be followed. We disagree completely about this as well. > >=============== > > > [J:] As I said earlier in this thread, neither the fact of concentration nor the fact that breath is the object (nor the combination of the 2) can make consciousness kusala. > > > > [RE:] But it is a part of the practice, not all of it, and a part of the practice that can lead to a skill that applies to the path. There is nothing wrong with that, and the path itself is ultimately purifying. > >=============== > > J: What you seem to be saying is that one starts the practice with a sincere intention and the practice takes care of the (inevitable) akusala. > > Unfortunately, sincere intention neither corresponds to, nor leads to, kusala. But correct practice as instructed by the Buddha is indeed what purifies the mind and creates kusala. It doesn't happen just by waiting for it to descend while studying scriptural material. > There is accumulated kusala of different kinds. From time to time kusala of one kind or another arises, spontaneously (not requiring deliberate effort or intention on our part). This can be the basis for development. That is rather random, and what would cause the amount of kusala necessary for progress to show up so randomly? Are there enough random kusala moments in the day to lead to enlightenment? I doubt it. > >=============== > > [RE:] If I develop calm and I know that without insight the calm will not complete the path, I am going to be aware of that and undertake a balanced practice, taking into account what the Buddha says to do at each stage. It's not just whistling in the dark. When insight arises, then the path gets more certain and the direction more clear. When obstacles arise, one deals with them and works through the akusala. The path allows for all things to be treated with calm and insight and the further development of both. > >=============== > > J: The only calm that is kusala is the calm that arises with kusala consciousness. An induced calm is unlikely to be kusala. But fortunately kusala calm does arise from time to time, spontaneously. No need to try to have it at other times ;-)) Nobody said anything about inducing calm, but conditions are created by what one does, not just what is floating around at random at a given time. Right Effort is not No Effort. That is a contradiction in terms and not what the Buddha taught in my view. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #115638 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Howard and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to > you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop > what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this > development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to > you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is > skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is > skillful.'" Here is a direct and definitive *instruction* to do something; an admonition to do something, and the Buddha urging us to do what he says. "Develop" is given here as an active verb, not something that happens by itself. It is in the imperative form, "to do." It should thus be impossible to say that the Buddha is just speaking conventionally of paramatha dhammas arising. He is clearly urging us to do this proactively, as you have said, Howard. I would very much like to hear Jon's response to this sutta. Since he does not believe that we should do anything to follow the path, he must interpret this as a conventional form of something else. But it seems it this case it is not really possible to do this in any plausible way. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #115639 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > There is no jhana, no preparary practices necessary. Right now, real dhammas > with sabhava that have the three characteristics are present and can be > insighted. There is no need to go somewhere else or do something else. > Concentration arises now, with each and every cetasika. Thanks for your comments. I think it is important and necessary to do as you say and be aware of the opportunity for insight in every moment that arises. But it is my sense both from the flow of life as I experience it, and from sutta, that this immediate practice as we are capable of doing it is not adequate all by itself for developing the path. Maybe at a higher level of mindfulness it is possible. My reason for emphasizing jhana as necesary and as right concentration is not because I have a personal obsession with it, but because the Buddha constantly talks about it as the basis for the completion of the path in sutta. It is a recurrent theme that he speaks about in detail. It is obvious that he considered it an important platform for the development of deeper insight, once distracting sense involvements have been quiesced. It's true that personally I may in probability never experience jhana, but it is also important to see what the Buddha valued and what he talked about. If there are many many examples of the attainment of awakening through dry insight without samatha jhana, I would appreciate it if you can point me in the direction of some accounts of this taking place, and some statements of the Buddha saying that this is an equally viable path along with the path he often described through the jhanas. It would be helpful to read about this. So far, without having seen such accounts, I am pretty firmly convinced that Buddha's normal path of awakening took one through the jhanas, but I am open to expanding my awareness about this. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #115640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. nilovg Dear Kevin and Rob E, Op 13-jun-2011, om 7:00 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > There is no jhana, no preparary practices necessary. Right now, > real dhammas > with sabhava that have the three characteristics are present and > can be > insighted. There is no need to go somewhere else or do something else. > Concentration arises now, with each and every cetasika. ------ N:I appreciate this, Kevin. When reading Rob E's comment that dry insight is an exception and only for a few, I had the same in mind as what you wrote. I think that jhaana is so very difficult and that many, many special conditions have to be fulfilled. See Visuddhimagga. Only one in a hundred thousand can reach it. Rob E would like texts about people attaining enlightenment without developing jhaana. There are many instances where we read (as I mentioned before) that people listened and at that very place where they heard the Buddha attained enlightenment. No need to go somewhere and develop jhaana first. I wrote: discourse we > read that the listener attained enlightenment. It may > happen that the > Buddha spoke to someone who had never heard the Dhamma > before. But he > was ready for it. No mentioning of previous jhaana > practice. How > could there be opportunity for it?> For example, in the Verses of Uplift, Udaana, Sona chapter, #3 "Leper", about Suppabuddha. There are many suttas about progressive talk by the Buddha. ------- Nina. #115641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 13-jun-2011, om 8:13 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I > would not say to > > you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to > develop > > what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this > > development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, > I would not say to > > you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of > what is > > skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, > 'Develop what is > > skillful.'" ------- N: Perhaps people may wonder how they can ever realize the truth and then they may think that the development of jhaana can be of help, or is even necessary to have more awareness. I see this sutta as an exhortation to develop satipa.t.thaana right now. It is actually the same, as I wrote before, as contained in Acharn Sujin's words: "What about this moment?" The sutta is encouraging. We may be disheartened at times, but, the Buddha said that it is possible to developing understanding of the phenomena that are within us and around us all the time, in daily life. With cheerfulness and courage. I read to Lodewijk today from "Preserving the Buddha's Teachings": < We read in the ?Kindred Sayings? (I, S?g?tha vagga, IV, M?ra, Ch II, ?6, The Bowl): "On one occasion, at S?vatth?, the Exalted One was instructing, inciting and inspiring the monks by a sermon on the five khandhas of grasping (upad?na khandhas). And the monks with their whole mind applied, attentive and intent, listened with rapt hearing to the Dhamma." (By the way, no mentioning about jhaana) The Commentary (the S?ratthappak?sin?) explains that the Buddha was instructing, teaching under different aspects the specific and general characteristics of the khandhas of grasping. The Buddha was enlightening, inciting and inspiring them. The Commentary explains that he exhorted them to have energy and endeavour. As we read in the sutta text, the monks listened with enthousiasm, with rapture, to the Dhamma. Thus, this text reminds us to be courageous and not to give up developing understanding, and to be cheerful, glad about the Dhamma. We discussed courage and cheerfulness because of the Dhamma several times. Acharn Sujin explained that when akusala citta arises we may dislike it, we may feel bad about it, but akusala can be realized as only a conditioned reality. Then we shall not try to do something else but the development of right understanding of what appears now, even if it is akusala. We have accumulated akusala for countless lives, and thus there are conditions for its arising. We shall not be downhearted but we can be courageous and glad to be able to know the truth. We may be discouraged about our lack of awareness and understanding, our lack of progress. We should not expect the arising of a great deal of understanding when it has not yet been accumulated. Understanding should be developed very naturally in our daily life and in that way we can live happily, without anxiety. We can rejoice in the Dhamma we learnt and take courage to continue developing right understanding.> -------- Nina. #115642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws nilovg Dear Vince, Op 11-jun-2011, om 17:03 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > >> N: It is the opposite: when there is more understanding it leads to >> more detachment. But even the ordinary person, when he learns about >> the elements, he will be more detached from the body. >> [...] >> The more understanding there is the more detachment there will be. > > V: also I read understanding is citta accompanied by panna because > previously there > was vipassana, and vipassana exists by detachment. ------ N: Detachment is alobha cetasika and this accompanies each kusala citta. There are many levels of detachment. At the moment of insight there is detachment, they go together, but as understanding grows also detachment grows. -------- > > V: Should we think in understanding without including the previous > detachment? ------- N: I do not see it as: detachment first and then there will be more understanding. Anyway, we should know what level of detachment and detachment from what? Detachment from the wrong view of self can only arise when understanding of naama and ruupa has been developed over and over again. ------- > > V: What goes first?. Or better to say: Should we put any of them in > first place?. > It would not be clinging to the "I"? ------ N: Again, we should be clear about it what kind of detachment, what level and detachment from which kinds of objects. The anaagaami is detached from all sense objects and this could only be achieved by highly developed understanding. ------- Nina. #115643 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:11 pm Subject: Re: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. philofillet Hi Nina Thanks as always for your transcriptions, such an interesting topic. > Kh S: How can there be conventional death without momentary death? Ph: True. But why do we call it "momentary death" instead of simply saying the citta rises and falls away again? Metta, Phil #115644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:19 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. nilovg Dear Philip, Op 13-jun-2011, om 12:11 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But why do we call it "momentary death" instead of simply saying > the citta rises and falls away again? ------ N: To make it clear that life is only one moment of citta experiencing an object. To emphasize that what we call death is no different from what occurs each moment. To emphasize the meaning of paramattha dhammas: realities occurring each moment, right now. We are so involved with our life in the world we find so important, but it is very insignificant, lasting only as long as one citta. To requote what was often quoted here: (from Buddhism in Daily Life): < In the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 39) we read about the shortness of the world: ...in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased... Life, person, pleasure, pain?just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced, when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead... What we call death is not really different from what happens at any moment of consciousness. Each moment a citta falls away there is death of citta. Each citta which arises falls away completely but it conditions the next citta. The last citta of this life, the dying- consciousness (cuti-citta), is succeeded by the first citta of the next life, the rebirth-consciousness (pa?isandhi-citta). There is no self at any moment of our life and thus there is no self or soul which travels from this life to the next life.> ----- Nina. #115645 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:26 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. philofillet Hi Nina, Thank you, you explained that with great confidence and clarity。 Another question, there is death citta and rebirth consciousness at moment of death and rebirth, not between countless cittas in this lifetime. To me this says that the moment of death is more monumentous than the momentary death. But I appreciate what you wrote, and the passages you provided, I am not completely ignorant of the importance of reflecting on momentary death. Thsnks again, Nina Metta, Phil p.s sorry I can't snip taiks on i-phone, moderators --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Philip, > Op 13-jun-2011, om 12:11 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > But why do we call it "momentary death" instead of simply saying > > the citta rises and falls away again? > ------ > N: To make it clear that life is only one moment of citta > experiencing an object. To emphasize that what we call death is no > different from what occurs each moment. To emphasize the meaning of > paramattha dhammas: realities occurring each moment, right now. > We are so involved with our life in the world we find so important, > but it is very insignificant, lasting only as long as one citta. To > requote what was often quoted here: > (from Buddhism in Daily Life): > < In the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 39) we read about the shortness of the > world: > > ...in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is > extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single > conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls > (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference > of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so > too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious > moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have > ceased... > > Life, person, pleasure, pain?just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > Produced, when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead... > > What we call death is not really different from what happens at any > moment of consciousness. Each moment a citta falls away there is > death of citta. Each citta which arises falls away completely but it > conditions the next citta. The last citta of this life, the dying- > consciousness (cuti-citta), is succeeded by the first citta of the > next life, the rebirth-consciousness (pa?isandhi-citta). There is no > self at any moment of our life and thus there is no self or soul > which travels from this life to the next life.> > ----- > Nina. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #115646 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:09 am Subject: Sangiitisutta 8.4-5 nichiconn dear friends, CSCD 334. < Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 8.2-3 nichiconn Hi Kevin, Mr Olds does have a way with words! His are the translations I'll probably decide not to use when things get too long for my liking. peace, connie > > The old boy certainly tried though, surely a great man. You have to respect the > one who takes pains to translate, for it is not an easy task. #115648 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:47 am Subject: Dhamma in Bhutan, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, In Bhutan Khun Sujin spoke in English about Dhamma. Kh S: One does not have to go anywhere in order to understand dhamma, because dhamma is at any moment. Understanding comes from hearing and considering. Pariyatti can condition pa.tipatti, and pa.tipatti means: that which ?reaches? realities with right understanding. When one does not hear the Dhamma and consider it there are no conditions for direct awareness and for a beginning of understanding realities. People read about aayatana (sensefield) but they do not know that there are aayatanas right now, the real ones, not the past ones. There cannot be seeing without eyesense. The ruupa which is eyesense is cakkhaayatana (the aayatana of cakkhu, eye), the ruupa that is visible object is ruupaayatana, the cetasikas arising with seeing are dhammaayatana. Seeing itself is manaayatana (of mind). They have to present themselves at this moment. All are conditioned and are conditions for just one moment of seeing. What arises and falls away we take for something permanent. And this is because of sa~n~naa, remembrance. -------- Nina. #115649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:50 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta, book of Eights, suttas 4,5, and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 4: DN.33.3.1(4) 'Eight occasions of indolence (kusiita- vatthuuni): Here, a monk (a) has a job to do. He thinks: "I've got this job to do, but it will make me tired. I'll have a rest." So he lies down and does not stir up enough energy to complete the uncompleted, to accomplish the unaccomplished, to realise the unrealised. Or (b) he has done some work, and thinks: "I've done this work, now I'm tired. I'll have a rest." So he lies down ... ------ N: The commentary to this sutta is the same as in the co to the Vibha?nga, the ?Dispeller of Delusion?, Ch 17, p. 272, Octads. The Tiika: as to work that has to be done, this is work that is appropriate for a recluse, such as looking after the robes. As to the twofold energy that is not stirred up, this is bodily and mental energy. As to bodily energy (kaayika), this is energy when walking. N: Viriya is a cetasika, it is mental, but it can be exerted in bodily actions such as walking. --------- N: Akusala citta with indolence is mental heaviness, this is compared to a wet bean that is heavy. Whereas when kusala citta arises it has mental lightness and pliability. One may feel too tired to perform any kind of kusala.This sutta is an exhortation to develop satipa.t.thaana during all activities and not to delay being aware of naama and ruupa. When one is doing chores like washing cloths, or when one has to travel, one may become tired, but inspite of this there should be no delay in being aware of naama and ruupa. Wherever one is in whatever situation, there are realities presenting themselves through the six doors. One may be ill or one may have just got up from an illness, but this is no excuse for being indolent: there are only naama and ruupa. Satipa.t.thaana should be developed with right energy, in order to attain what has not been attained, to realise what has not yet been realised. ------------ sutta 5: DN.33.3.1(5) 'Eight occasions for making an effort (aarabbha- vatthuuni): Here,a monk (a) has a job to do. He thinks: "I've got this job to do, but in doing it I won't find it easy to pay attention to the teaching of the Buddhas. So I will stir up sufficient energy to complete the uncompleted, to accomplish the unaccomplished, to realise the unrealised."... ------- N: The co. states that these are the reasons for stirring up energy, and these are the opposites of the bases for laziness. The Tiika: refers to the twofold energy, bodily and mental. It states that these exhortations are consistent with the appropriate realisation or that such realisation is conditioned by these exhortations. ------- N: As we read, indolence leads to mental heaviness. Lightness of cetasikas and citta accompany each kusala citta and they support the kusala citta so that it is gentle and light. At such a moment all sluggishness, mental heaviness and tiredness are gone. When someone needs help one is able to react quickly, and one has alertness to doing what is beneficial. One does not waste an opportunity for daana, siila or bhaavanaa. Mental lightness supports the kusala citta in the development of insight. It supports citta to be alert and non- forgetful of naama and ruupa that appear. Sometimes there are conditions for indolence and sometimes for right effort. One should learn that even indolence and energy are not 'my indolence' or 'my energy' but conditioned realities that are not self. ------- Nina. #115650 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, Nina: I appreciate this. Kevin: Thanks Nina. I learned much of it from your books! Nina: There are many suttas about progressive talk by the Buddha. Kevin: There are tons of example of people with "dry insight" attainments in the Suttas. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115651 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:28 am Subject: The Noble Life! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Noble Life leading to Nibbâna? A certain Bhikkhu once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, the Noble Life, the Noble Life, is it often said… What, Sir, is this Noble Life? And what is the final goal of this Noble Life? This Noble 8-fold Way, Bhikkhu, is the Noble Life; namely: Right View (samm?-ditthi) Right Motivation (samm?-sankappa) Right Speech (samm?-v?c?) Right Action (samm?-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samm?-?j?va) Right Effort (samm?-v?y?ma) Right Awareness (samm?-sati) Right Concentration (samm?-sam?dhi) The destruction of Greed, the destruction of Hate, and the destruction of Ignorance: This is the final goal of the Noble Life… <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya. Book V [7-8] section 45:6 A certain Bhikkhu ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <...> #115652 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. epsteinrob Hi Nina and Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Nina: I appreciate this. > > Kevin: Thanks Nina. I learned much of it from your books! > > Nina: There are many suttas about progressive > talk by the Buddha. > > Kevin: There are tons of example of people with "dry insight" attainments in > the Suttas. Nina cited an example in her response to me in which someone directly attains enlightenment after hearing the Buddha's discourse, and another in which a group of monks were enraptured by the Buddha's talk without any mention of jhana. I have no doubt about those instances taking place, and I'm sure there are more examples, although I would enjoy any citations you have to point me towards them. I am very interested in the conditions at the time that such events took place. I think that is important and of great interest. I also think it is important to just look clearly at the Buddha's description of the path and his descriptions of how and when and under what conditions and with what practices monks and others were directed to reach enlightenment, and what constitutes the path. There is no doubt that when Buddha is describing the following of the path to full enlightenment he speaks in many cases of the systematic development of the jhanas, in order, and often speaks of the formless attainments as well. That is the path he followed and that is the path he demonstrated in the completion of his parinibbana. It is an integral part of the full path in my opinion, based on those suttas, and represents the full attainment of right concentration. If I am not correct that this is the "real article" when it comes to right concentration, then there should be suttas in which the Buddha states that something other than jhana is right concentration. I would be happy to see such a passage, and not only very laudable passages, great in their own right, in which exceptionally sharp and ready individuals attained enlightenment when having the benefit of the Buddha himself speaking of the path directly to him. I think that is very possible with the right accumulations and under the right circumstances, but I still think it is not the complete attainment of right concentration that the Buddha described on a number of occasions. I am ready to be corrected on this by citations that I can learn from that oppose this view, because I am not familiar with all the passages in which such attainments took place. I sincerely think that we should take account, as you suggest, of the conditions under which the path can be fully realized without the attainment of jhana, and also the role that jhana played in the path throughout the Buddha's life and the history of Buddhism. I don't think that my interest in seeing what the truth of the path and the possibility of enlightenment under different conditions is a negative view or a negative message. It is not meant to discourage anyone, or to set up roadblocks for anyone. The attainment of enlightenment is supremely difficult with or without jhana and depends on many conditions, including a level of purity from defilements that most people are not capable of, so there is plenty to discourage anyone from feeling they can accomplish the fruit of the path if they are apt to be discouraged. That should not take the subject of right concentration and jhana off the table. My view of the path is that I am a long way from insight and a long way from jhana. I don't aim for far-away goals, but I do want to understand the path as Buddha taught it, and I lean heavily on sutta and what I see that he has said many times. That is all I can do. In addition I am committed to having a mind that is open to the teachings and open to the moment so that mindfulness and insight can develop whenever the opportunity arises. Personally, I also believe in right practice, which to me is constituted by anapanasati and satipatthana as described by the Buddha. I am not in a hurry, but I am also not going anywhere. I am standing on the path, where I am, the best way I can, and will continue to do so. I very much appreciate your knowledge and your views, and will be happy to read anything you point me towards that expresses your understanding of the path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #115653 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, and Nina, Robert E: Nina cited an example in her response to me in which someone directly attains enlightenment after hearing the Buddha's discourse, and another in which a group of monks were enraptured by the Buddha's talk without any mention of jhana. I have no doubt about those instances taking place, and I'm sure there are more examples, although I would enjoy any citations you have to point me towards them. I am very interested in the conditions at the time that such events took place. I think that is important and of great interest. Kevin: Robert, I am excited to learn that you have an interest in learning of such examples. Please give me just a little time and I will be happy to try and compile some of these examples for you. In my next reply to this thread (either later tonight or tomorrow morning), I will try to produce some for you. Again, I am delighted to see that you are willing to consider more sides objectively. That is all I could hope for. Robert: There is no doubt that when Buddha is describing the following of the path to full enlightenment he speaks in many cases of the systematic development of the jhanas, in order, and often speaks of the formless attainments as well. That is the path he followed and that is the path he demonstrated in the completion of his parinibbana. It is an integral part of the full path in my opinion, based on those suttas, and represents the full attainment of right concentration. If I am not correct that this is the "real article" when it comes to right concentration, then there should be suttas in which the Buddha states that something other than jhana is right concentration. I would be happy to see such a passage Kevin: There are also examples in Suttas where to Buddha talked about Right Concentration not in regard to the samattha jhanas. These texts are rarely quoted. Please allow me some time. Again, I am more than happy to try and find some of them for you. I will post them here in my next reply along with the other quotations. And again, The Vissudhimagga and the Commentaries are very clear just how difficult it is to attain jhana. It is stated that at this time there are no more individuals around that can attain mastery of the jhanas (there are five masteries). There is nothing that explicitly states that people cannot attain jhana that I know of, but that people nowadays do not have the accumulations to attain mastery of the jhanas. This mastery is a necessary element to use the jhanas as a basis of insight. So without mastery of jhana, no insight borne of jhana practice at all. The way of insight for someone with the five masteries of mundane jhanas is to enter and exit the jhana at will, using ones super purified mind to see the cittas arising at the heart base and gain insight into them. This is different from the "dry insight" vehicle and is called the samattha vehicle for insight. Again, without the five masteries people cannot do this. Most of the Buddha's disciples were jhana labhis as it was their accumulations to be able to practice samattha at that level. Many of the discourses were directed to those people. For them, the four or eight jhanas are "Right Concentration". Again, I will produce some quotes for you soon. Robert: I don't think that my interest in seeing what the truth of the path and the possibility of enlightenment under different conditions is a negative view or a negative message. It is not meant to discourage anyone, or to set up roadblocks for anyone. Kevin: Fully understood. Robert: The attainment of enlightenment is supremely difficult with or without jhana and depends on many conditions Kevin: . Honestly, I would not call it difficult. The problem which gets in the way of it happening is our accumulated defilements. They get in the way of the panna performing it's job and inisighting phenomena, because they are strongly accumulated and panna is usually weakly accumulated. However, the reverse can be true too. With time, understanding grows. Simply hearing the Dhamma is a great blessing whether we can attain or not, because panna can become accumulated and we can get closer whether it happens in this life or not. Do you see the lobha? We have lived so many lifetimes, yet it must be in this lifetime or we are not satisfied! Is this wholesome? Is that being detached from a self? Two important aspects are knowledge of mind and matter, and knowledge of causality. If you gain these, wisdom will surely grow. There can be no doubt about it. That is the path, though there is no path; there is just nama and rupa that arise because of conditions. If you want a goal, I suggest aiming for these two things. Robert: My view of the path is that I am a long way from insight and a long way from jhana. I don't aim for far-away goals, but I do want to understand the path as Buddha taught it, and I lean heavily on sutta and what I see that he has said many times. That is all I can do. In addition I am committed to having a mind that is open to the teachings and open to the moment so that mindfulness and insight can develop whenever the opportunity arises. Kevin: Too much "I-making". Not enough understanding of nama and rupa and how they function. Be talking to you soon.. All the best, P.S Thanks for your great contributions on this list. It is gratifying to speak to someone who is so interested in Dhamma and who is articulate. I see that while you hold views different to mind, that you are objective. It is refreshing to see this quality in someone and it should be rightfully praised. Forgive my poor grammar, I am the product of poor public schooling in the inner city. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115654 From: Vince Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina you wrote: > N: I do not see it as: detachment first and then there will be more > understanding. Anyway, we should know what level of detachment and > detachment from what? Detachment from the wrong view of self can only > arise when understanding of naama and ruupa has been developed over > and over again. I think you right about detachment doesn't mean all the progress by itself. There is need of some understanding of nama and rupa to fructify. What I'm not sure, is about thinking "we should get" understanding instead allowing its arising by detachment. I wonder if this ignorance is a problem of the citta speed. I don't know what happens at all. However, just I say there is a clinging in the effort to understand. Then I wonder if it's better to be detached at that point. Although I'm not sure of the reach, because not all the objects are available in dependence of wisdom. > N: Again, we should be clear about it what kind of detachment, what > level and detachment from which kinds of objects. > The anaagaami is detached from all sense objects and this could only > be achieved by highly developed understanding. it is truth the accumulated wisdom conditions the deep of detachment. In example, the detachment of being alive or not. Such type of detachment would exceed the common reach of the chosen object to be detached. This problem seem to be in first place of wisdom instead detachment, I suppose. thanks for your comments, best, Vince. #115655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. nilovg Dear Rob E (and Kevin) I appreciate your sincere post and your interest to learn more. Op 14-jun-2011, om 4:15 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > In addition I am committed to having a mind that is open to the > teachings and open to the moment so that mindfulness and insight > can develop whenever the opportunity arises. Personally, I also > believe in right practice, which to me is constituted by > anapanasati and satipatthana as described by the Buddha. I am not > in a hurry, but I am also not going anywhere. I am standing on the > path, where I am, the best way I can, and will continue to do so. ------- N: I have more texts on a Gradual Teaching and no mention of jhaana. They were new to the teachings and had no opportunity to develop jhaana. I requote what I formerly wrote : < I read in the Vinaya, (PTS, Horner, IV, mahaavagga, 15 etc.) the story of Yasa, very impressive. We read that the Buddha spoke a progressive talk (anupubbikathaa) to Yasa:"...talk on giving, talk on moral habit, talk on heaven, he explained the peril, the vanity, the depravity of pleasures of the senses, the advantage in renouncing them. When the Lord knew that the mind of Yasa, the young man of family , was ready, malleable, devoid of hindrances, uplifted, pleased, then he explained to him the teaching on dhamma which the awakened ones have themselves discovered: ill (dukkha), uprising, stopping, the Way..." We read that Yasa then became a sotaapanna. I think we should pay attention to this gradual teaching. Giving: one learns that it is good to think of others instead of being engaged with one's own pleasure. Siila: as restraint from evil and as doing good deeds through body and speech. Heaven: good deeds bring happy results such as rebirth in heavenly planes. He taught cause and result. He taught the danger of sense pleasures. Without hearing dhamma one may have as the goal of life as much pleasure as one can obtain. But these pleasures do not last, and they cause one to accumulate more and more, to be enslaved, not free. We read that the Buddha also taught Dhamma to Yasa's father and when Yasa "was reviewing his stage (of knowledge) as it was seen, as it was known, his mind was freed from the cankers without grasping." He became an arahat. The Lord spoke a progressive talk to the mother and former wife, and they became sotaapanna. Four friends also became sotaapannas after hearing a progressive talk. They became monks and were instructed more by the Buddha. "While they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma talk, their minds were freed from the cankers without grasping. The same happened to fifty friends of Yasa. "At that time there were sixty-one perfected ones in the world..."> I am very grateful to Kevin for looking up more texts, and awaiting his answer to you. Nina. #115656 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. rjkjp1 Dear Nina I agree of course that there are many examples of disciples who became arhat without jhana. But I had the idea that Yasa was one of those who attined jhana mastery at the time of penetrating the teachings and thus is considered jhana labhi rather than sukka vipassaka? with respect robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E (and Kevin) > I appreciate your sincere post and your interest to learn more. > Op 14-jun-2011, om 4:15 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > In addition I am committed to having a mind that is open to the > > teachings and open to the moment so that mindfulness and insight > > can develop whenever the opportunity arises. Personally, I also > > believe in right practice, which to me is constituted by > > anapanasati and satipatthana as described by the Buddha. I am not > > in a hurry, but I am also not going anywhere. I am standing on the > > path, where I am, the best way I can, and will continue to do so. > ------- > N: I have more texts on a Gradual Teaching and no mention of jhaana. > They were new to the teachings and had no opportunity to develop jhaana. > I requote what I formerly wrote : > < I read in the Vinaya, (PTS, Horner, IV, mahaavagga, 15 etc.) the > story of Yasa, very impressive. We read that the Buddha spoke a > progressive talk (anupubbikathaa) to Yasa:"...talk on giving, talk on > moral habit, talk on heaven, he explained the peril, the vanity, the > depravity of pleasures of the senses, the advantage in renouncing them. > When the Lord knew that the mind of Yasa, the young man of family , > was ready, malleable, devoid of hindrances, uplifted, pleased, then > he explained to him the teaching on dhamma which the awakened ones > have themselves discovered: ill (dukkha), uprising, stopping, the > Way..." > We read that Yasa then became a sotaapanna. > I think we should pay attention to this gradual teaching. > > Giving: one learns that it is good to think of others instead of > being engaged with one's own pleasure. Siila: as restraint from evil > and as doing good deeds through body and speech. Heaven: good deeds > bring happy results such as rebirth in heavenly planes. He taught > cause and result. > He taught the danger of sense pleasures. Without hearing dhamma one > may have as the goal of life as much pleasure as one can obtain. But > these pleasures do not last, and they cause one to accumulate more > and more, to be enslaved, not free. > We read that the Buddha also taught Dhamma to Yasa's father and when > Yasa "was reviewing his stage (of knowledge) as it was seen, as it > was known, his mind was freed from the cankers without grasping." He > became an arahat. > The Lord spoke a progressive talk to the mother and former wife, and > they became sotaapanna. > Four friends also became sotaapannas after hearing a progressive > talk. They became monks and were instructed more by the Buddha. > "While they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma > talk, their minds were freed from the cankers without grasping. The > same happened to fifty friends of Yasa. "At that time there were > sixty-one perfected ones in the world..."> > > I am very grateful to Kevin for looking up more texts, and awaiting > his answer to you. > > Nina. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #115657 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. nilovg Dear Robert, In this text there is no mentioning of any jhaana attainment. See also Pali Proper Names, II, p. 685. Are you perhaps thinking of another text? Nina. Op 14-jun-2011, om 13:18 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > But I had the idea that Yasa was one of those who attined jhana > mastery at the time of penetrating the teachings and thus is > considered jhana labhi rather than sukka vipassaka? #115658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:08 am Subject: No jhaana attainment? nilovg Dear Rob E, I found another text. DISCOURSE ON THE SETTING IN MOTION OF THE WHEEL OF THE DHAMMA DHAMMACAKKAPPAVATTANA SUTTA, S 56.11. This is the first sermon of the Buddha. About the four noble truths and there is reference to the three rounds for each one of these, thus in three rounds and twelve ways. Summary of the commentary: Three rounds, tipariva.t.ta.m, this refers to the three rounds reckoned as understanding of the truth, sacca~naa.na, understanding of the task, kicca~naa.na, and understanding of what has been accomplished, kata~naa.na. As to the words here, ?this is the noble truth of dukkha, this is the origin of dukkha? , understanding thus of the four truths as they really are is called sacca~naa.na.m. We read: Commentary: The eye of dhamma (dhammacakkhu): elsewhere this refers to the three maggas and three fruitions (phalas) but here it means the first Path. ----- N: Thus, in other suttas the ?eye of dhamma? refers to the magga- cittas and phalacittas (lokuttara kusala cittas and lokuttara vipaakacittas) of the first three stages of enlightenment, thus not of the arahat, the fourth and last stage. Here it refers to the first stage, the stage of the sotaapanna. Of the sotaapanna it is often said that he realizes "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to cessation" (ya.mki~nci samudayadhamma.m, sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamman"ti.) This is direct understanding of the arising of dhammas and their passing away according to conditions as explained in the Dependent Origination. So long as there is ignorance, the first link of the Dependent Origination, there will be the arising of dhammas in the cycle of birth and death. When ignorance has been eradicated it means the end of the cycle. Also here: no mentioning that jhaana has been developed first by Konda~n~na. --------- Nina. #115659 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:27 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 13-jun-2011, om 15:26 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Another question, there is death citta and rebirth consciousness at > moment of death and rebirth, not between countless cittas in this > lifetime. To me this says that the moment of death is more > monumentous than the momentary death. ------ N: The moment of dying is cuticitta that has the function of being the last citta of this lifespan. Then there is the end of being this individual in this life. Only one moment. Cittas have different functions, like the function of seeing, or hearing, and the cuticitta has the function as mentioned above. It arises and falls away very rapidly, and it does not experience any object of this world, thus, it is different from the cittas that experience objects through the six doorways. It is of the same type as all bhavangacittas that were arising during that life. "You" do not notice anything when it arises and it is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness. Only your dear ones who are remaining here notice that you died. For you it is not so monumentous, and for countless times before there was the passing away and rebirth without noticing it. Just like a fingersnap. ------ Nina. #115660 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Dear Robert E., Nina, all Kevin: Robert, I promised to compile some quotes for you dealing with both cases of dry insight (non-jhana) penetration in the texts and with Right Concentration, with or without previous jhana attainment. Being that I've compiled a good list of quotes dealing with the Right Concentration here, I will send them in this post first. This will give you some time to work through these. In the meantime, I will keep looking for quotes about dry insight attainers from the texts. I've only got a few so far. All the best, Kevin From Rob Kirkpatrick's site: (This one is particularly direct on the difference between concentration that leads to samattha jhana and concentration that leads to insight) Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana:..... he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness." This also from Rob K: "There are several suttas that give the 4 rupa jhanas as right concentration, and these are very common in the suttas.. There are also suttas where the eight mudane jhanas are given. Then there are many suttas like the following, which do not get cited so often on internet forums: Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html There is also the Digha Nikaya, sangiti sutta (sutta 33) page 488 of Walshe Four concentrative meditations (samadhi bhavana): a. Leads to happiness here and now (dithadhamma-suka) b. Gaining knowledge and vision (nana-dassana-patilabha) c. Mindfulness and clear awareness (sati-sampajana) d. The destruction of the corruptions. (asavanama khaya) i. How does this practice*a*lead to happiness here and now? Here, a monk practices the four Jhanas ii. How does it*b*lead to the gaining of knowledge and vision? Here, a monk attends to the perception of light, he fixes his mind to the perception of day, by night as by day, by day as by night. In this way, with a mind clear and unclouded, he develops a state of mind that is full of brightness. iii. How does it*c*lead to mindfulness and clear awareness? Here, a monk knows feelings as they arise remain and vanish. iv. How does this*d*practice to the destruction of corruptions? Here, a monk abides in the contemplation of the rise and fall of the five aggregates of grasping: "This is material form, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; these are feelings, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; this perception, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; these are mental formations, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; this is consciousness, this is its arising, this is its ceasing." " (Robert:) Note that*b*is a special type of samatha meditation giving powers of mundane vision." "Thus in these two suttas the four mundane jhanas are given a specific category different from the types of samadhi which result in sati-sampajana or the destrution of the defilements." From the The Netti-pakarana (587): "Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties." And as Robert K has said to you previously: "Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight" This was written by Dhammando Bhikkhu on a message board: "The commentaries speak of "threefold concentration" (tividha sam?dhi), comprising momentary concentration, approach concentration, and arrival concentration. The second and third of these are meditative attainments; the first is the ordinary concentration that is always present, which the Abhidhamma identifies with the ekaggat? cetasika. That being so, the widespread modern practice of exhorting meditators to "develop momentary concentration", if taken literally, is simply nonsensical. It would be as meaningless as telling someone to develop phassa, or develop vedan?, or develop saññ? (which like ekaggat? also arise with every consciousness). It's meaningless to speak of "developing" something that one is never without." This from the Commentary to the Susima Sutta: [Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) : "Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." More Suttas: MAJJHIMA NIKAAYA III (5.7) Mahaasa.laayatanikasutta.m. 149. The Longer Discourse on the six spheres http://www.vipassana.info/149-mahasalayatanika-e.htm "To someone who learns and realizes, eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant born of eye contact, as they really are. Attachment does not arise for eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant born of that eye contact. This one not attached, unyoked and not deluded, abiding seeing the danger does not accumulate in the five holding masses for the future. His craving, interest and greed, to be here and there in the future, cease. His bodily and mental troubles, anxiety and laments cease. Further he experiences bodily and mental pleasantness. Whatever his view, it becomes right view. Whatever his thoughts, they become right thoughts. Whatever his speech it becomes right speech. Whatever his actions, they become right actions. Whatever his effort, it becomes right effort. Whatever his mindfulness, it becomes right mindfulness. Whatever his concentration, it becomes RIGHT CONCENTRATION." Again right concentration, but no jhanas mentioned.. From the Sangati Sutta: Sangiti sutta "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established [he attains nibban]; b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it; or e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established. Notice the first 4 ways of liberation do not mention gaining mundane jhana. (Most of these quotations are borrowed from Robert Kirkpatricks site. Thanks again Rob for sharing them with me in the past). Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115661 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:43 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. philofillet Hi Nina, I'm very fortunate to be discussing Dhamma with you. Yes, cuticitta, jyst a fingersnap, and rebirth citts. But beyond that fingersnap there can be woeful realms with no opprtunity to learn Dhamma, or a realm in which kusala can continue to be accumalted and panna can continue to develop. To be honest, I find it difficult to believe in Hell, but I believe in the animal realm. The Buddha told those dog disciples, behave like a dog and you will be reborn a dog, and they wept because they knew that what the Buddha said is true. And it is with the fingersnap of cutticita that it becomes true, not with one of countless ciitas rising and falling away during one lifetime... Again and again the Buddha warns of woeful destinations. Why? It is not natursl for me to believe in such things, but when the Buddha says something again and again, I come to hear it,,,, Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 13-jun-2011, om 15:26 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > Another question, there is death citta and rebirth consciousness at > > moment of death and rebirth, not between countless cittas in this > > lifetime. To me this says that the moment of death is more > > monumentous than the momentary death. > ------ > N: The moment of dying is cuticitta that has the function of being > the last citta of this lifespan. Then there is the end of being this > individual in this life. Only one moment. Cittas have different > functions, like the function of seeing, or hearing, and the cuticitta > has the function as mentioned above. > It arises and falls away very rapidly, and it does not experience any > object of this world, thus, it is different from the cittas that > experience objects through the six doorways. It is of the same type > as all bhavangacittas that were arising during that life. > "You" do not notice anything when it arises and it is succeeded by > the rebirth-consciousness. Only your dear ones who are remaining here > notice that you died. For you it is not so monumentous, and for > countless times before there was the passing away and rebirth without > noticing it. Just like a fingersnap. > ------ > Nina. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #115662 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:23 am Subject: Just Transient Formations... bhikkhu5 Friends: Seeing the 5 Clusters of Clinging as Alien: The blessed Buddha once asked: What do you think, Bhikkhus & friends, is form, feeling, perception mental constructions, and consciousness permanent or impermanent? Impermanent, Venerable Sir. Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness? Suffering, Venerable Sir.. Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: "This is mine, this I am, this is my self"? No, Venerable Sir...! Therefore, Bhikkhus & friends, any kind of form whatsoever, any kind of feeling whatsoever, any kind of perception whatsoever, any kind of mental constructions whatsoever, & any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or fine, high or low, far or near, all this should be seen as it really is with true understanding thus: This is not mine, this is not me, this I am not, this is not my or any self... Seeing thus, bhikkhus & friends, the learned Noble Disciple experiences revulsion towards any form, towards any feeling, towards any perception, revulsion towards all mental constructions, revulsion towards all consciousness. While experiencing this revulsion, he becomes disillusioned and detached. Through this detaching disillusion his mind is released. When it is released there emerges this assurance: This mind is irreversibly released. He then understands: Destroyed is any new rebirth, this Noble life has been fully completed, what had to be done is done, there is no state beyond this... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya 24:71 III 223 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <...> #115663 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:07 pm Subject: Today is Poson Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Poya is the full-moon of Poson (June), which is specially noteworthy to the Sri Lankan Buddhists as the day on which Emperor Asoka 's son, the Arahat Mahinda , officially introduced Buddhism to the island in the 3rd century B.C. Accordingly, in addition to the normal ritualistic observances undertaken on a Poya day, on Poson day devotees flock to Mihintale & Anur?dhapura , the ancient holy capital city of the country, for it was there that Arahat Mahinda converted the then ruler, King Devanampiya Tissa, and his court to Buddhism, thereby setting in motion a series of events that finally made Sri Lanka the stronghold home of Theravada Buddhism. Arahat Mahinda arrives and tests the king's intelligence. Mihintale , Sri Lanka. Mahinda Thera's cave there. <...> On such Uposatha Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibb?na -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <...> #115664 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:29 pm Subject: Conditionality talks Part 4 farrellkevin80 From Nina's book: "Cetan? which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has a double function: it directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and it has the function of "willing" or activity in good and bad deeds. In this last function it is capable to produce the results of good and bad deeds later on. Kusala cetan? and akusala cetan? that produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on condition these results by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. Thus, this is kamma operating from a different time (n??akkha?ika kamma-paccaya), it is different from conascent kamma-condition. As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahaj?ta kamma-paccaya, the cetan?s accompanying all eightynine types of citta 96 are conascent kamma-condition for the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany as well as for the r?pa produced by them. The cetan? which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta conditions citta, the other cetasikas and the r?pa produced by them by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahaj?ta-kamma-paccaya. Vip?kacitta and kiriyacitta can also produce r?pa 97; the accompanying cetan? conditions citta, the other cetasikas and r?pa by way of conascent- kamma-condition, sahaj?ta kamma-paccaya. Seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are vip?kacittas which do not produce r?pa, but the accompanying cetan? conditions citta and the other cetasikas by way of conascent kamma-condition. When the pa?isandhi-citta arises the accompanying cetan? conditions that citta, the other cetasikas and also the kamma-produced r?pa which arises at the same time by way of conascent kamma-condition (Pa??h?na, Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, Kamma, paragraph 427, vii b). Asynchronous kamma-condition, n??akkha?ika kamma-paccaya 98, pertains to kusala cetan? or akusala cetan? which is able to produce later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind. The cetan?, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of birth and death, the force of cetan? is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the form of vip?kacitta and specific r?pas of the body 99 by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through speech and this can produce akusala vip?ka later on. The akusala cetan? or kamma conditions the vip?kacitta which arises later on by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. At the same time, the akusala cetan? is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to speech intimation (vac?viññatti), a r?pa produced by citta, by way of conascent kamma-condition. Akusala cetan? and kusala cetan? condition other phenomena by way of conascent kamma-condition and also by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. Kusala kamma and akusala kamma through body, speech and mind can be of different degrees. Kamma is not always a "completed action". There are certain constituent factors which make kamma a completed action. For example, in the case of killing there have to be: a living being, consciousness of there being a living being, intention of killing, effort and consequent death (Atthas?lin?, I, Book I, Part III, Ch V, 97). If one of these factors is lacking kamma is not a completed action. Akusala kamma which is a completed action is capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. Not only birth is the result of kamma, but also the experience of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses, which are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or experiencing tangible objects through the bodysense throughout life are the result of kamma. Some kammas produce their results in the same life in which they were committed, some in the next life, some in later lives." Kevin: How often when we create kamma are we are of asynchronous kamma-condition? Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115665 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. nilovg Dear Kevin, thank you for all these texts. I can add something from my Sangiitisutta studies. Op 14-jun-2011, om 18:38 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here > a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. > And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit > and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from > this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he > feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is > established [he attains nibban]; > b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching > Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or > c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or > d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders > over it and concentrates his attention on it; or > e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well > considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it > with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, > and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a > result, and with this happiness his mind is established. > > Notice the first 4 ways of liberation do not mention gaining mundane > jhana. --------- N: Co.: atthapa.tisa.mvedii, dhammapa.tisa.mvedii , understands the meaning and the letter. He understands the meaning of the text and he understands the text (itself). Joy(paamojja) arises in him, and from this joy, delight (piiti): Co: joy is weak rapture, and having become gladness (tu.t.thaa) it is strong rapture. Tiika: Because of formerly arisen rapture, as it were by repetition, it has become gladness. As to kaayo passambhati, the body is calmed. Kayo, according to the co. stands for the mental body, the cetasikas. Tiika: Rapture that has become a power is able to become a condition for calm that can allay the anxiety of the mental body. Therefore, when the mental body is calmed, the physical body is also calmed. The mental happiness that is not worldly (niraamisa) is able to become a condition for concentration of the citta. Co: samaadhi is samaadhi that accompanies the fruition-consciousness of the arahat. Tiika: Meant is not just any concentration, it is the incomparable calm, samaadhi, accompanying the fruition-consciousness of the arahat. Co: After having developed the meditation subject up to access concentration, and developed vipassanaa he reaches arahatship. In this connection it is said that the mind is established. The other ways are explained in the same way. But here is a distinction (in the fifth way): when he has properly grasped some concentration-sign (samaadhi-nimitta.m). Here is reference to the thirtyeight meditation subjects. These are well grasped by the person who learns the meditation subject in the presence of a teacher (aacariyasantike). ------------ N: When he hears the Dhamma from a teacher he understands the meaning and has joy, rapture, calm and concentration. Also teaching to others bears the same fruit. One has the opportunity to deeply consider what one is explaining. This is of benefit both to the speaker and to the listener. The same happens when one is reciting, but this has to be done with understanding. Pondering over the Dhamma, penetrating it with wisdom gives the same result. Four ways do not refer to samatha, but the fifth way refers to the development of the meditation subjects of samatha, and after he has developed vipassanaa he attains arahatship. The samaadhi accompanying the phala-citta of the arahat is the incomparable calm, because all defilements have been eradicated. We read in this sutta about the effects of the study of Dhamma, having joy, rapture, calm and concentration. Not merely pariyatti, but development of the stages of insight will have such effects. In this sutta the importance has been stressed of listening, deeply considering what one hears and applying it. -------- Another text, about the absence of the hindrances by listening: We read in the Kindred Sayings V, 94 (Kindred Sayings on the Limbs of Wisdom, Ch IV, 8 Restraint and Hindrance) : Here we see that this is not achieved only by jhaana. ------ Nina. > > #115666 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Ken H), --- On Fri, 10/6/11, truth_aerator wrote: > In the Sabba Sutta the Buddha says it all. :-) > "Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. > And what, monks, is the all? It is eye and visible object, ear and > sound, nose and scent, tongue and savour, body and tangible object, > mind and mind-states. That, monks, is called the "all". > Whoso, monks, should say: "Rejecting this all, I will proclaim > another all,-it would be mere talk on his part, and when questioned > he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill > pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do >so." ... A:>What about, lets say, eye consciousness? Where is it? What about contact (phassa)? Or Buddha's begging bowl which He used to collect alms-food? .... S: The 'All' are the ayatanas, the inner and outer ayatanas. So here, eye-consciousness, like all other cittas, are included in manayatana or 'mind', while phassa and all other cetasikas (along with subtle rupas and nibbana) are included in dhammayatana or 'mind-states' in the translation given. The Buddha's begging bowl is a concept, an idea, as Ken H has explained and therefore not included in the 'all'. As the Buddha says, if we 'proclaim another all', it is 'mere talk' on our part and will not lead to any understanding. Metta Sarah ======= #115667 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, --- On Fri, 10/6/11, Ken O wrote: >Mindfulness is a protector and guardian. Satipatthana is not just about mindfullines, it includes clear comprehension of dhamma. It is not the role of mindfulness to understand the three characteristics, this role is panna only. If mindfulness is for the understanding of the three characteristics, then the ascetics who have high mindfulness could have become enlighten as jhanas development is impossible without mindfulness which protects the mind from sensual desires. ... S: Good and important points and quote that followed (#115586). Metta Sarah ====== #115668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:42 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 14-jun-2011, om 18:43 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > Yes, cuticitta, jyst a fingersnap, and rebirth citts. But beyond > that fingersnap there can be woeful realms with no opprtunity to > learn Dhamma, or a realm in which kusala can continue to be > accumalted and panna can continue to develop. To be honest, I find > it difficult to believe in Hell, but I believe in the animal realm. > > ------ > N: You do not have to call it hell, but by this word is indicated the high intensity of an unhappy plane. There are many degrees of unhappy planes. We do not know in how many kinds of unhappy planes we were born before this life. Now we are in the human plane where we can still develop understanding and this understanding is never lost, even if the next rebirth is rebirth in an unhappy plane. At this moment we can only think of a next rebirth, and the reality is thinking. Each citta that arises and falls away is anattaa, beyond control, no matter it is seeing, thinking, dying-consciousness or rebirth-consciousness. It does not make much sense to think about the kind of rebirth we shall have, we cannot change this, anyway. The best way not to be negligent is studying with awareness the citta at this moment, also when it is thinking of rebirth. In that way we shall better understand the meaning of momentary death. ***** Nina. #115669 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Thu, 9/6/11, upasaka@... wrote: From AN 3.61, there is the following: > "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative..." > In this particular material, the Buddha's refuting of everything coming from one's past kamma is pragmatically based on the following: The falling back on what was done in the past as essential results in there being no desire or effort to act (in the present) in pursuit of 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done'. It seems to me that the Buddha is saying here that regardless of past kamma, one can do what should be done and refrain from what should not be done unless one is convinced that past kamma rules that out. Comments anyone? .... S: The Buddha is pointing out, as you say, that we cannot say that the wholesome and unwholesome mental states and actions are a result of past kamma. Wholesome and unwholesome mental states are conditioned by accumulated tendencies and these can and do develop and change at this very moment. So right understanding and right effort can develop right now regardless of what past kamma has conditioned by way of the experiencing of particular visible objects, sounds and so on. If they couldn't develop, there'd be no point in talking about a path, no point in a Buddha's teaching at all. However, the important point is that even such development of understanding or right effort now is conditioned, not a self doing and refraining from anything. The purpose of all the Teachings is to help us understand dhammas as conditioned and anatta. Metta Sarah ======= #115670 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Thu, 9/6/11, Robert E wrote: >>S: p.s Rather busy the next few days and next week going to Guangzhou in China with friends to study yoga with Mr Iyengar, himself! ... R:>Wow, that's amazing! ... A: Thx for your anecdotes:-) Yes, I'll be away until Monday with v.limited (if any) internet access. Yes, I'll take anything else off-list unless I can somehow link it into a dhamma thread:-) Metta Sarah ====== #115671 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] like gangbusters sarahprocter... Dear Connie, --- On Tue, 7/6/11, connie wrote: >Ajita: About the head and head-splitting, Bavari asks (this question), please explain that O Gracious One, please remove our doubts, O seer. Buddha: Know ignorance is called the head, and understanding is the head-splitter, joined with confidence, mindfulness, concentration, desire, and energy. ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Parayanavagga/ ... S: Good one! let's welcome any head-splitters that come our way from now on:-) Metta Sarah ====== #115672 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This to be Cosidered part 1 - The Right Path and the Wrong Path sarahprocter... Dear Kevin, --- On Mon, 13/6/11, Kevin F wrote: >We tend to think there is a Right Path and a Wrong Path, but is this really so? ... S: You make good points. Actually, Right Path just refers to the arising of right understanding and associated factors. Wrong path refers to the arising of wrong understanding and associated factors. So both Right and Wrong 'Path' can be developed in this sense - right view can accumualate, just as wrong view can accumulate. There are many suttas in AN 10s, I think it is, on this. Sorry, no time to check or quote. .... >Go away from Pannatti. That is the 'path', or more accurately the ground where wisdom can develop - wisdom which is not self, not my self, not your self. Forget about pannatti and study ultimates. The only 'path' is understanding right now, if there can be said to be one at all. ... S: Thx for all your reflections and many good points! Metta Sarah ====== #115673 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta, revisit Sangiitisutta and co. nilovg Dear Kevin, I can add from the commentary. In my study this sutta is named sutta 4 of the Fourth. As we shall see, the co. explains that even c and d pertain to vipassanaa with jhaana as basis. It is all very detailed and difficult to understand without the co and subco. Op 14-jun-2011, om 18:38 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > There is also the Digha Nikaya, sangiti sutta (sutta 33) page 488 of > Walshe > Four concentrative meditations (samadhi bhavana): > a. Leads to happiness here and now (dithadhamma-suka) > b. Gaining knowledge and vision (nana-dassana-patilabha) > c. Mindfulness and clear awareness (sati-sampajana) > d. The destruction of the corruptions. (asavanama khaya) > .... (Robert:) Note that*b*is a special type of samatha meditation > giving powers > of mundane vision." > > "Thus in these two suttas the four mundane jhanas are given a > specific category different from the types of samadhi which result > in sati-sampajana or the destrution of the defilements." -------- N: The third development of concentration (c) is mindfulness and clear awareness (sati-sampaja~n~na). The Co refers to the satipa.t.thaanasutta (M, 10) where sati sampaja~n~na , clear comprehension, is expounded in seven or eight phrases : ?And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension...? N: As to knowing the arising, the persisting and vanishing of feeling, the explanations that follow also pertain to the fourth development of concentration, samaadhi-bhaavanaa, which is the destruction of the cankers by the arahat. Co: this is said of the arahat?s knowledge. He understands the base (vatthu) and the object (aaramma.na) of feeling and in this way he understand that feeling thus arises, persists and falls away. ------ N: Feeling has a physical base, it has the same base as the citta it accompanies, one of the sensebases or the heart-base. Feeling experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies. Without base and object feeling could not arise. --------- Co: He understands not only feeling but also sa~n ~naa, volition (cetanaa) etc. which were not mentioned here. subco: he understands in this way not only feeling, but also all dhammas. Also ariyans who are not arahats, ?learners?, understand these, but the arahat has complete understanding of them. The Co refers to the Dependent Origination: dependent on ignorance there is the origination of feeling. Dependent on clinging there is the origination of kamma. Dependent on contact there is the origination of feeling. He realizes the general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. He realizes that with the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of feeling etc. The subco gives a more detailed explanation: he realizes the arising and ceasing with regard to the moment of arising and ceasing, and also the arising and ceasing with regard to conditions. The characteristic as to condition, paccayalakkha.na), and the characteristic as to moment (kha.nalakkha.na) are here taken together (ekajjha.m). ------- N: As to the arising and ceasing with regard to conditions, this is in accordance with the method of the Dependent Origination. Subco: He pays attention to the impermanence of feeling after he has defined its arising and falling away and breaking up, and ?this appears, is understood and is known?. Evenso he pays attention to the characteristic of dukkha: because of its impermanence vedanaa is dukkha, it is oppressed by arising and falling away (udayabbayapa.tipiilita). It is fearful and a foundation of dukkha. Thus, because of impermanence and dukkha it is devoid of self (attarahita), without refuge (asaara), beyond control and empty. He pays attention to the characteristic of anattaa. As to the words of the commentary: because of the ceasing of ignorance there is the ceasing of feeling, the subco explains: by the highest path (aggamaggena) there is the ceasing of feeling, there is no more arising of it since there are no conditions present anymore. As to samaadhi bhaavana, this is vipassanaa samaadhi bhaavanaa that has been learned by the ariyans. The attainment of jhaana should be seen as basis of this. (d) the destruction of the corruptions (aasavaanam khaya). Sutta: How does this practice lead to the destruction of the corruptions? Here, a monk abides in the contemplation of the rise and fall of the five aggregates of grasping (pa~nc'upaadaanakkhandesu udayabbayaanupassii): "This is material form, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; these are feelings ...; this is perception ...; these are the mental formations ...; this is consciousness, this is its arising, this is its ceasing." ----- N: As was said, this should be understood in the same way as was explained under the third way of samaadhi-bhaavanaa. The Co states that this is samaadhi-bhaavanaa with jhaana as basis (paadaka-jhaana) which is the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. The arahat who has realised the third and fourth kinds of development of concentration, samaadhi, developed jhaana and vipassanaa. ---------- N: In the section on sati-sampaja~n~na it is said that the monk should be aware during all his activities in daily life. After that it is explained that the arahat is mindful and has understanding of feelings and all other dhammas, their arising persisting and falling away. It is said that ?it appears (upa.t.thaana), it is understood (vidita), it is known (paaka.ta)?. Thus, he is naturally aware of feelings and the other dhammas during all his activities. Moreover he directly understands that feeling arises because of ignorance in the past, and that with the ceasing of ignorance there are no longer conditions for feeling, which means the end of the cycle of birth and death. He directly understands the Dependent Origination, without having to think about it. The Buddha taught the Dependent Origination so that eventually people could directly realize the truth of it. It is not meant as a mere object of thought. However, only pa~n~naa which has been developed is able to realize the truth. When pa~n~naa has matured it will perform its function of directly understanding the truth, there is no self who has to try to understand the truth. ------------ Nina. #115674 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, part 1 Continuing our discussion on impermanence and the string of pearls - "...regarded as if each moment were iron darts hitting the screen of awareness. Or as single pearls on a string, but not continuous as the string itself...." --- On Wed, 1/6/11, Robert E wrote: R:>However, it seems to me that there is the opposite problem, and one that concerned the Buddha as well, that of annihilation, the illusion of complete destruction, and perhaps that is more of a problem for one who has become disenchanted, but still clings to an idea of control. "Well, if I can't hold onto this object, I will completely destroy it and get rid of it." Some even commit suicide to eradicate attachment and that just leads to more samsara. .... S: Yes, not understanding the nature of cittas and the accumulation of attachment on and on. ... >R:So in emphasizing the destruction of dhammas without the continuity, the beads without the string, doesn't that lead to annihilationism, the idea that there is absolute destruction of dhammas? ... S: There is the absolute falling away of dhammas at each moment, but each 'bead' is succeeded by another bead. ... >R:After all, when one dhamma falls away, the next immediately arises. The arising of a dhamma is just as much a true experience in the moment as the falling away is. The falling away, I think, is not emphasize because it is more real than the rising, but because it is the solution to the problem of clinging. But seeing the rising as equally real is the solution to the opposite problem, that of clinging to cessation or trying to rush to cessation when factors of ignorance are really creating the reality of re-arising. So I still think it's important to see both phases and not just emphasize one. .... S: Yes, this is why there has to be the development of understanding which eventually directly knows the arising and falling away of dhammas, not just the falling away, as you say. This is at the third stage of insight: (Vism XX, 94f) "Here is the text: 'How is it that understanding of contemplating present states' change is knowledge of contemplation of rise and fall? Present materiality is born [materiality]; the characteristic of its generation is rise, the characteristic of its change is fall, the contemplation is knowledge. Present feeling..perception....formations...consciousness...eye...(etc)....Present becoming is born [becoming]; the characteristic of its generation is rise, the characteristic of its change is fall, the contemplation is knowledge' (Ps.i.54). "In accordance with the method of this text he sees the characteristic of generation, the birth, the arising, the aspect of renewal, of born materiality, as 'rise', and he sees its characteristic of change, its destruction, its dissolution, as 'fall'. "He understands thus: 'There is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to its arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere any depository in the way of a heap or store or hoard of what has ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (cf S.iv, 197), but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lute's neck, and the man's appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes - so too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, and having been, they vanish', " ... Metta Sarah ====== #115675 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, part 2 >R:This leads to another question, which is "what actually is in a single moment of experience?" .... S: A citta and accompanying cetasikas which all experience either a sense object (a rupa) through a sense door or a citta and accompanying cetasikas which experience a nama, a rupa or a concept through the mind-door or a bhavanga citta and accompanying cetasikas which experience an object in between door-way experiences. In other words, a citta (and cetasikas) experiencing an object. ... >R:It seems to me that a single moment of experience may contain the arising of a dhamma, the sustaining of a dhamma, or the falling away of a dhamma. When you speak of a moment, does it contain only one of those actions, or all three? ... S: As you say, each citta can be divided into three parts. At any moment, there is one part of a citta only. As the Buddha said, no words can describe the incredible speed at which cittas arise and fall away however. .... >R:Does a single citta, which itself is a dhamma experiencing another dhamma, take in merely a segment of one of those actions, a full action, or the entire cycle? ... S: This could get very detailed indeed and I'm hesitant to generalise. For example, seeing consciousness is a citta which experiences is visible object. However, the visible object has already arisen and conditioned that seeing consciousness. Seeing just sees what is visible. It isn't concerned with the stages of the rupa. When it comes to understanding, as mentioned, it depends on the development of that understanding as to what is known. In the beginning it is just the understanding of a dhamma as a nama or rupa that is known. For example, there may be understanding now of the characteristic of visible object, just the dhamma which is seen now. If there is an attempt to try and know or experience the arising and falling away of a dhamma, this would be wrong practice and unhelpful. ... >R: If it is defined just as it is given in the commentaries, then we should be able to know exactly what the citta is doing as it arises, functions and falls away, and in what part of that cycle the actual experiencing, the actual moment, takes place. Do we? Is that actually a real model of how true direct experiencing takes place? How does it work? ... S: The details are given, but the purpose of developing undersanding is to just know what appears now, not to get lost in a theoretical construct. ***** >S:> Can we say a sound "behaves in a particular way"? I wouldn't say a sound has "any content 'inside of it'", but each sound has its own characteristic sound and all sounds have characteristics that are different from visible objects. Furthermore, all rupas (inc. the sounds and visible objects) have characteristics different from all namas. They don't experience anything, they don't act or behave or have any interest in what arises. R:>Well they have a characteristic way of behaving, sure, but they don't "own" those characteristics, they just behave that particular way. Why call it "own-being" which sounds like a little self? ... S: No need to call it "own-being" - just stick to sabhava:-) >>S: It is by understanding the dhamma which appears - whether that be a nama or a rupa - that it is then clear what is meant by 'characteristic' or 'sabhava'. It doesn't matter what terms we use. >R:I agree, as long as the terms are not laden with the feeling of a "secret self," even if it only lasts for a moment. ... S: It all comes back to our understanding of the terms. When we directly understand that dhammas have characteristics which can be known, it doesn't matter what they're called:-) I think I'm about up-to-date for a change. I'll be signing off now for a few days. Metta Sarah ======= #115676 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:52 pm Subject: Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan. 2. nilovg Dear friends, Kh S: The ruupakkhandha appears with the nimitta of shape and form, like this moment. There are many processes of seeing and that which is seen. People usually think that they see 'some thing' because seeing arises and falls away so fast in succession, many times. The ruupa, visible object, which appears arises and falls away many times, so only the nimitta is cognized. Who could tell the exact moment of seeing right now? The moment of like or dislike? One has to be truthful and know what one can understand or not yet. The pa~n~naa that develops leads to detachment, not taking any reality for ?I? or ?mine?, such as seeing. This moment of hearing is different from seeing. Thinking that arises after seeing is not seeing. This is life. No one can condition elements, dhaatus. Q: Is meditation on breathing necessary? Betty answered this question and spoke about her own experience. She said that there is not a set time for meditation. Conditions brought us here, and we should listen to the Dhamma so that there will be more understanding. Kh S: The teachings can be proven at any time. Each word of the teachings is in conformity with reality right now. Some people would like to meditate instead of understanding reality right now. One should listen to the Buddha?s words and understand what he taught about reality. Realities appear because of conditions, from life to life, from this moment to another moment. Would one like to meditate or to understand reality? -------- Nina. #115677 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice ksheri3 Hi Sarah, Jeeze, have you learned a lot about DANCING! I've just found this post/reply and am laughing since I can "sense" and "feel" that something is amiss here, in your reply to HOWARD, but since I haven't had time to think much about it, I CANNOT PUT MY FINGER ON THE EXACT CONCEPT THAT YOU APPLY IN YOUR DANCING AROUND/ABOUT THE ISSUES EXPRESSED BY HOWARD. it's a bothersome sensation but it still amuses me enough to cause LAUGHTER within me, even to cause LAUGHTER from me which I give to you here. I'm gonna save this one and give it some thought since HOWARD'S stuff is usually good, and your replies usually are good, but a bit dry i.e. not enough shortening used in the mixing process before baking. I think the CAUSATION for your DANCING AROUND THE ISSUE is that Howard's stuff may be a bit too delicate for you to handle and for the group to handle. You know, that if I get a group grasp of the entire post/reply, then you can count on me to give you the straight dope, 100% full strength without being cut or diluted in any way, which is one of my characteristics of NOT CLOUDING THE ISSUES by trying to put rose colored glasses on other people so that they see through a filter that I CHOOSE FOR THEM TO SEE THROUGH. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- On Thu, 9/6/11, upasaka@... wrote: > From AN 3.61, there is the following: > > > "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], > 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as > a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative..." > > > > In this particular material, the Buddha's refuting of everything > coming from one's past kamma is pragmatically based on the following: The > falling back on what was done in the past as essential results in there being no desire or effort to act (in the present) in pursuit of 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done'. It seems to me that the Buddha is saying here that regardless of past kamma, one can do what should be done and refrain from what should not be done unless one is convinced that past kamma rules that out. Comments anyone? > .... > S: The Buddha is pointing out, as you say, that we cannot say that the wholesome and unwholesome mental states and actions are a result of past kamma. Wholesome and unwholesome mental states are conditioned by accumulated tendencies and these can and do develop and change at this very moment. > > So right understanding and right effort can develop right now regardless of what past kamma has conditioned by way of the experiencing of particular visible objects, sounds and so on. If they couldn't develop, there'd be no point in talking about a path, no point in a Buddha's teaching at all. > > However, the important point is that even such development of understanding or right effort now is conditioned, not a self doing and refraining from anything. The purpose of all the Teachings is to help us understand dhammas as conditioned and anatta. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #115678 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, Robert E., all, Nina: I can add something from my Sangiitisutta studies... Kevin: Nina, amazing work! Thank you for sharing all of that!!! We can see by the quotes from the Commy and Tika that dry-insight was being spoken of in the text for sure. By the way, I also received your book today. Thank you very much to both you and Lodewijk. Do thank him for me, please. Thank you Nina, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115679 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:16 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta. epsteinrob Hi Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Kevin: Robert, I am excited to learn that you have an interest in learning of > such examples. Please give me just a little time and I will be happy to try and > compile some of these examples for you. In my next reply to this thread (either > later tonight or tomorrow morning), I will try to produce some for you. Again, > I am delighted to see that you are willing to consider more sides objectively. > That is all I could hope for. ... > Kevin: There are also examples in Suttas where to Buddha talked about Right > Concentration not in regard to the samattha jhanas. These texts are rarely > quoted. Please allow me some time. Again, I am more than happy to try and find > some of them for you. I will post them here in my next reply along with the > other quotations. Looking forward to this, Kevin. Thank you very much for the effort! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #115680 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I am very grateful to Kevin for looking up more texts, and awaiting > his answer to you. I am looking forward to them too. There is no doubt that there are some conditions under which full understanding can be reached without going through the path with jhana. I will just note for now that all of the instances we are seeing so far are ones in which the Buddha himself taught the Dhamma to the ones who awakened. I am sure that the Buddha could directly lead people to awakening in a way that would not normally take place. And even to be in the presence of the Buddha meant that their kamma was already more than exceptionally good. As noteworthy as such examples are, they do not represent the ordinary person in ordinary circumstances. But it is still very important. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - #115681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws nilovg Dear Vince, Op 14-jun-2011, om 8:17 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > I think you right about detachment doesn't mean all the progress by > itself. > There is need of some understanding of nama and rupa to fructify. > What I'm not > sure, is about thinking "we should get" understanding instead > allowing its > arising by detachment. ------- N:As we have more understanding of anattaa, beyond control, we shall be less inclined to manipulate understanding, or as you say, think that we should 'get' understanding. This is already a degree of detachment, being less attached. Then there are more conditions to 'let' understanding arise by itself. ------ > > V: I wonder if this ignorance is a problem of the citta speed. I > don't know what > happens at all. However, just I say there is a clinging in the > effort to > understand. Then I wonder if it's better to be detached at that > point. Although > I'm not sure of the reach, because not all the objects are > available in > dependence of wisdom. ------ N: Ignorance of the nature of realities, of their being impermanent, dukkha, anatta. There can be clinging to the effort to understand, you are right. No use of trying. But we cannot force ourselves to be detached, it is pa~n~na's work. --------- > >> N: Again, we should be clear about it what kind of detachment, what >> level and detachment from which kinds of objects. >> The anaagaami is detached from all sense objects and this could only >> be achieved by highly developed understanding. > > V: it is truth the accumulated wisdom conditions the deep of > detachment. In example, > the detachment of being alive or not. Such type of detachment would > exceed the > common reach of the chosen object to be detached. This problem seem > to be in > first place of wisdom instead detachment, I suppose. ------ N: Clinging to life. When there is more understanding of what life really is, only one moment of citta experiencing an object, there will be less clinging. Thus, more understanding should be emphasized as you suggest. Less inclination to think of a life story, how important life is. That is only thinking with attachment. ------- Nina. > #115682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:42 pm Subject: Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan. 3. nilovg Dear friends, Kh Sujin: Pariyatti (intellectual understanding of the present reality) comes first and it can condition pa.tipatti (development of direct understanding of realities). Without pa.tipatti there can never be pativedha, insight into the true nature of realities one has learnt about. It is insight into the arising and falling away of realities, into the nature of non-self. There is seeing, and who knows that it is not self? Who knows that it is only an element which is conditioned to see and then falls away instantly? Seeing cannot think, it cannot like or dislike. One should understand from the very beginning one word: dhamma. There are naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas and one should not confuse these two kinds of dhamma. If we confuse them we would think that dhammas cannot be known, that they cannot be verified. We should learn and we should be sincere to understand what the Buddha taught about this moment, about anattaa. Realities are not self. Sati is anattaa. How can one have sati at will, is there any way to create sati? Who can cause the arising of seeing, of sound or of hearing? This is impossible. Each moment shows the anattaness of realities. But pa~n~naa is not yet sufficiently developed so that it understands the anattaness of realities. One learns to understand which are the conditions for direct awareness, and that is pa.tipatti. ------- Nina. #115683 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:11 am Subject: Uprooting Egoism! bhikkhu5 Friends: No Identical Identity Exists neither Internally, nor Externally! At the time of Buddha Gotama Ven. Khemaka spoke thus: I do not regard any form as 'This I Am' or 'I am' as if 'inside' any form, nor do I regard 'This I Am' as 'apart from' any form or as if 'outside' any form! I do not regard any feeling, perception or mental construction as 'This I Am' or 'I am' as if 'inside' any feeling, perception or mental construction, nor do I regard 'This I Am' as 'apart from' any feeling, perception or mentally made construction or as if 'outside' any feeling, perception or mental construction! I do not regard any consciousness as 'This I Am' or 'I am' as if 'inside' any consciousness, nor do I regard 'This I Am' as 'apart from' any consciousness or as if 'outside' any consciousness ... !!! Yet, although this notion, this conception, this assuming, this conceiving, this imagination, this mental fermentation, this false reference 'I Am' has not yet vanished in me, still I do not consider anything neither internal, nor external, neither among these five clusters, nor apart from the five clusters as: "Mine", nor as "This I Am", nor as "This is My Self"... !!! When a Noble Disciple keeps contemplating the momentary arising & ceasing, the change, the becoming otherwise, the decay, fading & vanishing, and the conditioned & dependent emergence of these five clusters of clinging, then the subtle residual desire for 'identification', the remaining 'Ego'-conceit, & the lingering & latent tendency to suppose 'I Am', not yet eliminated comes to be uprooted! Thereby do the toxic traces of destructive Egoism all evaporate.. This - in itself - is release, is relinquishment, is liberation, is final freedom! <...> Khemaka Thera: An Arahat. Once, when he lay very ill at the Badarik?r?m?, near Kosamb? , some monks, staying at the Ghosit?r?ma , sent D?saka, with a message to Khemaka, inquiring whether he managed to bear his pains. D?saka returned with the reply that he did not; he was sent again to ask if Khemaka had seen the self in the five khandhas; when D?saka returned with the answer that he had not, he was sent a third time to ask whether Khemaka was an arahant. "No," came the answer, and D?saka had to visit him a fourth time with the inquiry, What did Khemaka mean by self? In exasperation Khemaka came himself to Ghosit?r?ma and explained how, even when the Noble Disciple has put away the five lower fetters, there still clings to him a subtle remnant of the "I" conceit. As a result of this radical sermon Khemaka himself and sixty others became Arahats...! Source of inspiration: This Elder Lion Ven. Khemaka thereby Awakened 60 Theras & himself! The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya III 127-32 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 Complete Free Text here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-089.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <...> #115684 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:13 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (Me again. Still working through your back massages. Hope you can pick up the thread again, but won't blame you if not. ;-)) (114921) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > [J:] This distinction is further explained at Ch. III/27 where it says: > > "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane' [J: i.e., supramundane concentration], is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." > > > > So the first point is that the whole of Part II deals with mundane samadhi, i.e., samadhi that is kusala but that is not part of the path. > > [RE:] Why would you say that the mundane path is not part of the path? Aren't the mundane and noble path two levels or aspects of the path? Why is it taught if it is not part of the path? >=============== J: I'm not saying that the mundane path is not part of the path. I think you've misread the passage. As I read it, it is saying: - Concentration can be classified as 2-fold: mundane and supramundane - Supramundane concentration is the unification associated with the noble paths - The method of developing supramundane concentration is included in the method of developing understanding (in Ch. XXII) [in Part III - 'Panna'] - So here [in Ch. III] we do not talk about the development of that supramundane concentration. Hence my conclusion that the concentration described in Ch. III (and the rest of Part II - 'Samadhi') is the other kind of samadhi, namely, mundane samadhi. Under the 2-fold classification of mundane and supramundane, mundane samadhi is described as being kusala unification in the 3 planes >=============== > > [J:] The second point is that there are certain prerequisites to the development of mundane samadhi of the level of which the Vism is speaking. These are stated in brief as follows (Ch. III/28): > > > > a/ the person should have 'taken his stand' on virtue that is quite > > purified in the way stated in Part I of the text; > > b/ he should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have (the 10 impediments are: a dwelling, family, gain, a class, building, travel, kin, affliction, books, supernormal powers); > > Yes, letting go of the supernormal powers has always been a challenge for me. The other items are not so difficult. :-) > > > c/ he should approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament; > > d/ after that he should avoid a monastery unfavourable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable; > > e/ he should sever the lesser impediments; > > f/ he should not overlook any of the directions for development. > > > > The passage mentioning counting of breaths falls within the 'directions for development' at item (f) in the list of prerequisites (these begin at Ch. IV/21) > > > > So the 'beginner of good birth' is a person who has already satisfied the requirements at items (a) to (e) in the list. That means he/she must be a person of already well developed samatha. > > > > Hoping this helps to explain my earlier comments about 'relative beginner'. > > [RE:] Yes, if one is to take that list of prerequisites as an absolute standard that is quite overwhelming. >=============== J: I wasn't suggesting it was an absolute standard (it does not claim to be so). I was simply putting the remarks about the 'beginner' in their context. The person who has accomplished all those things at (a) to (f) may still be a beginner for the purposes of what is described in the rest of the section on anapanasati, as the term is being used. Jon #115685 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:19 am Subject: Re: Path is what should be done for its result jonoabb Hi Alex (114965) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Jon, all, > ... > >J: To my understanding, kayagatasati involves the seeing of dhammas >asdhammas/dhatus. There is nothing `conventional' about it ;-)) > > [A:] Your understanding doesn't match what the suttas or even commentaries say. >=============== J: Would you mind giving an example from sutta or commentary so that I can follow the point you are making here? Thanks. >=============== > [A:] Sometimes too much rationalization (which for must of us is simply an expression of kilesas) can be the means by which they have a picnic with us. It is possible to take advance concepts (such as no-Self, not taught by the Buddha) and use them for unwholesome purposes: > > Ex: "I have the desire to do bad but as there is no control..." - and use this intellectual justification to engage in it. The Buddha called such a person to be "senseless and immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving" -MN109 > > ""It's possible that a senseless person ? immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving ? might think that he could outsmart the Teacher's message in this way: 'So ? form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html >=============== J: Yes, I would agree that the kind of intellectual justification for akusala that you mention here would be not in accordance with the teachings. But of course that's not what I've been saying. My point has been that the effort required to eradicate akusala is the effort associated with the development of awareness/insight (i.e., is the mental factor of viriya that accompanies mundane path moments), rather than the conventional effort to suppress akusala that is manifesting. >=============== > Friend Sariputta, what is difficult to do in this Dhamma and Discipline? > Going forth, friend, is difficult to do in this Dhamma and Discipline. > What, friend, is difficult to do by one who has gone forth? > To find delight, friend, is difficult to do by one who has gone forth. > What, friend, is difficult to do by one who has found delight? > Practice in accordance with the Dhamma, friend, is difficult to do by one who has found delight. > But, friend, if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would it take > him long to become an arahant? > Not long, friend. - SN38.16 Difficult to Do >=============== J: The development of awareness/insight is far more difficult than the suppression of currently manifesting akusala ;-)) Jon #115686 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:27 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114970) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > Yikes - 7 posts in a row? Thank you for the effort. I will try to respond in due course. >=============== You manage it a lot better than I do ;-)) >=============== > > J: The object of awareness/insight is a dhamma, not a process. > > [RE:] Well, if one is able to see that the concept that is arising is unreal, and is able to see what dhammas are occurring that are real, the insight may be in terms of the dhammas, but there is also then an understanding that the concept is not real. What do you call that? >=============== J: In my view, it's by developing an understanding of those things that have inherent characteristics observable only to panna that the distinction between dhammas and concepts becomes directly known. In other words, it's not a matter of coming to see concepts as unreal first. >=============== > > J: The purpose of developing awareness of dhammas is to come to see the world as it really is, uninfluenced by projections or assumptions (`correct' or otherwise) about the way things are. > > [RE:] Still, concepts continue to arise, so that development of "uninfluence" [I know that's not a word] would both be seeing that the dhammas are real and that the concepts are not. Yes? May not be insight, but there is something going on in relation to concepts to allow them to no longer be construed as real. >=============== J: The Buddha spoke much about understanding dhammas (khandhas, ayatanas, elements, and so on), but little or not at all about understanding concepts. I do not see the understanding of concepts as having any particular significance/merit in the path as taught. >=============== > > J: It is the idea of "looking at our lives according to principles of Dhamma" that I question. Is this something you find expressed in the texts? > > [RE:] Yes, and I think I have quoted such before, but not sure I can find anything at the moment. I will hunt around. I should have better files... What I generally mean are all the various admonitions and prohibitions which are often expressed in terms of everyday activities and abstentions, and related to the mundane path factors, such as right action, livelihood, etc. >=============== J: These 'admonitions and prohibitions' are, to my reading, references to different kinds of kusala cittas, rather than to activities to be undertaken in pursuit of kusala/insight. >=============== > > J: Yes, but what you call "conceptual construction" is, in terms of paramattha dhammas, moments of mind-door consciousness of the kind we sometimes refer to as "thinking". > > [RE:] I don't disagree with that; just trying to establish that it's based on what is real, even though a false interpretation of such. >=============== J: Depends on what you mean by 'what is real' ;-)). Do you have a particular definition in mind? Jon #115687 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:13 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta. truth_aerator Hi Kevin, I second that. I hope that it is possible to find unambiguous justification for dry insight in the suttas (4.5 Nikayas please, it is too easy with later material). With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Kevin. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > > > > Kevin: Robert, I am excited to learn that you have an interest in learning of > > such examples. Please give me just a little time and I will be happy to try and > > compile some of these examples for you. In my next reply to this thread (either > > later tonight or tomorrow morning), I will try to produce some for you. Again, > > I am delighted to see that you are willing to consider more sides objectively. > > That is all I could hope for. > > ... > > > Kevin: There are also examples in Suttas where to Buddha talked about Right > > Concentration not in regard to the samattha jhanas. These texts are rarely > > quoted. Please allow me some time. Again, I am more than happy to try and find > > some of them for you. I will post them here in my next reply along with the > > other quotations. > > Looking forward to this, Kevin. Thank you very much for the effort! > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = = = > #115688 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:11 am Subject: Re: Path is what should be done for its result truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >J: To my understanding, kayagatasati involves the seeing of dhammas >asdhammas/dhatus. There is nothing `conventional' about it ;-)) >================== >[A:]Your understanding doesn't match what the suttas or even >commentaries say. >>=============== >J:Would you mind giving an example from sutta or commentary so >that >I can follow the point you are making here? Thanks. Example is in satipatthana and kayagatasati sutta where it talks about 31 bodyparts contemplation and 10 (or so) stages of decomposition. These and other similar "conventional" contemplations (such as literal death, etc) can lead to maggaphala http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html With metta, Alex #115689 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Dear Alex, all, Alex said: I second that (concerning Robert E stating that he was looking forward to quotes from the actual Suttas concerning dry-insight and Right Concentration that doesn't include jhanas). Kevin: Great Alex, I've already posted the quotes concerning Right Concentration in the thread a few days ago. I'd like to add though, that you should seriously consider them for some time before speaking out against them (as I fear you may). Stating what is not Dhamma as Dhamma can be grevious kamma. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115690 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:51 am Subject: Taken from "Preserving the Buddha's Teachings". nilovg Dear friends, I read this to Lodewijk from "Preserving the Buddha's Teachings" (Dhamma in India): When we are reading we are immediately absorbed in the story we read and we have different feelings about it, we feel happy or sad. At such moments we live in the world of concepts and ideas that are real merely in conventional sense. When we are reading, different cittas experience different objects. The citta that sees experiences only colour or visible object which impinges on the eyesense. Other types of cittas think of the meaning of the letters and of the whole story. Acharn Sujin reminded us that in real life we are also as it were ?reading?. We are looking at lines and shapes and we define these as this or that person. We should not try to avoid thinking of concepts of people and things, but we can learn the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts. When the object citta experiences is not a paramattha dhamma it is a concept. The Buddha spoke time and again of all the objets appearing one at a time through the six doors so that people would understand what paramattha dhammas are. Through mindfulness of paramattha dhammas as they appear one at a time, understanding of their nature of anatt? can be developed. Acharn Sujin often reminded us that everything is dhamma. It is true that dhammas appear all the time: seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking. Usually we are absorbed in our thoughts about the conventional world, we do not realize that there is dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that when we learn that everything is dhamma, we should not leave it at that, but that we should develop understanding until we know through our own experience that everything is dhamma. If there never is awareness of what appears through the eyes at this moment, realities cannot appear as just dhammas. Our life can change: first we were clinging to a self who sees or hears, but now we can learn that there are only different dhammas each with their own characteristic. ------ Nina. #115691 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. truth_aerator Dear Kevin, I am all for there being a "dry-insight" path. The easier, the better. I have my reasons... With poor health, it is hard (or almost impossible, save for the most gifted) to reach deep samatha states... With metta, Alex #115692 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Dear Robert E., Here is one instance of dry-insight attainment. I will post more. From: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html#sect26 26. Kala, Anathapindika's Son Better than sole sovereignty over the earth... This instruction was given by the Teacher while he was in residence at Jetavana with reference to Kala, son of Anathapindika. Tradition has it that Kala, although the son of so distinguished a father, a treasurer endowed with faith, never showed any desire to visit the Teacher, or to see him when he came to his father's house, or to hear the Dhamma, or to perform services for the Order. Moreover, whenever his father said to him, "Dear son, do not do this," he paid no attention to what he said. Now his father thought to himself, "If this son of mine adopts such an attitude as this and acts accordingly, the Avici hell will be his end. But it would not look well for me if my son went to hell before my very eyes. Now there is no living being here in the world who may not be broken by gifts; I will therefore break him with gifts." So he said to his son, "Dear son, take upon yourself the precepts of Uposatha day,[9] go to the monastery, listen to the Dhamma, and then return. If you will do so, I will give you a hundred pieces of money." - "Will you really give me this, dear father?" - "That I will, dear son." After his father had repeated his promise three times, Kala took upon himself the precepts of Uposatha day and went to the monastery. But not caring to listen to the Dhamma, he lay down to sleep in a pleasant place and returned home early in the morning. Thereupon his father said, "My son has undertaken the precepts of Uposatha day; bring him rice-porridge and other food straightway." So saying, his father caused food to be brought and given to him. But Kala said, "Unless I receive the money, I will not eat." So saying, he steadfastly refused whatever was brought to him. His father, who could not endure forcing him to eat, ordered that the money be presented to his son. The son took the purse of money into his hands and ate the food that was brought to him. On the following day the treasurer sent him forth, saying to him, "Dear son, I will give you a thousand pieces of money if you will stand before the Teacher, learn a single verse of the Dhamma, and then return to me." Accordingly Kala went to the monastery and took his stand before the Teacher. But no sooner had he mastered a single verse than he desired to run away. The Teacher therefore caused him to misunderstand the true meaning of the verse. Kala, failing to understand the verse, said to himself, "I will master the following verse." Therefore he remained and continued to listen. (Those who listen to the Dhamma with a firm resolution to learn, listen attentively; and to those who thus listen, the Dhamma gives the fruit of stream-entry and the remaining fruits.) Kala listened to the Dhamma with a firm resolution to learn; but the Teacher, as before, caused him to misunderstand the true meaning. "I will master the following verse," said Kala. So he remained and listened and was established in the fruit of stream-entry. On the following day he accompanied the Order of Monks presided over by the Buddha to Savatthi. When the great treasurer saw him, he said to himself, "Today the demeanor of my son pleases me." And straightaway the following thought occurred to the son, "I hope my father will not give me the money today in the presence of the Teacher. I hope he will conceal the fact that it was for the sake of money that I took upon myself the precepts of the Uposatha day." (But the Teacher knew all the same that it was for the sake of money that Kala took upon himself the Uposatha precepts on the preceding day.) The great treasurer presented rice-porridge to the Order of Monks presided over by the Buddha and then presented the same to his son. Kala sat down in silence, drank the porridge, ate the hard food, and then ate the boiled rice. When the Teacher had finished his meal, the great treasurer placed the purse containing a thousand pieces of money before his son and said, "Dear son, you will remember that I persuaded you to take upon yourself the Uposatha precepts and to go to the monastery by promising to give you a thousand pieces of money; here are your thousand pieces of money." When Kala saw the thousand pieces of money presented to him in the very presence of the Teacher, he was greatly embarrassed and said, "I do not care for the money." - "Take the money, dear son," said the father. But the son refused to touch it. Then his father saluted the Teacher and said, "Reverend sir, today the demeanor of my son pleases me." - "How is that, great treasurer?" - "The day before yesterday I sent him to the monastery, saying to him, 'I will give you a hundred pieces of money.' Yesterday he refused to eat because I did not give him the money; but today, when I give him the money, he refuses to touch it." The Teacher replied, "It is even so, great treasurer. Today, in attaining the fruit of stream-entry your son has attained that which surpasses the attainment of a Universal Monarch, the attainment of the world of the gods, the attainment of the world of Brahma." So saying, he pronounced the following stanza: Better than sole sovereignty over the earth, Better than going to heaven, Better than lordship over all worlds Is the fruit of entering the stream. ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115694 From: A T Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:11 am Subject: Dry insight in sutta/tipitaka truth_aerator Dear Kevin, all, Thank you for that post. Do you have something like this: "Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment (adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya), but not internal tranquillity of awareness(ajjhatta? cetosamathassa). " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html So one can gain adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya without ajjhatta? cetosamathassa. And in AN 3.89 it seems to suggest that destruction of fetters is due to training (sikkh?) in adhipaññ?. So if adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya and adhipaññ? are identical in meaning, then it suggests that one can just do it for Arahatship and without having attained ajjhatta? cetosamathassa before. AN3.88, AN3.89 and AN 4.94 if taken together, imply the existence of dry arahatship. In Puggalapaññatti it defines adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya as containing lokuttaramaggaphala (path and fruit). End of 187: Kathañca puggalo l?bh? hoti adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya, na l?bh? ajjhatta? cetosamathassa? Idhekacco puggalo l?bh? hoti lokuttaramaggassa v? phalassa v?, na l?bh? r?pasahagat?na? v? ar?pasahagat?na? v? sam?patt?na?. Eva? puggalo l?bh? hoti adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya, na l?bh? ajjhatta? cetosamathassa. 188 - Puggalapannati PTS 61 (Ga) tattha katam? adhipaññ?ya paññ?? Cat?su maggesu cat?su phalesu paññ? - aya? vuccati ''adhipaññ?ya paññ?'' PTS Vibha?gap??i 325 adhipaññ? = Four paths and fruits. ''Katam? ca, bhikkhave, adhipaññ?sikkh?? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu 'ida? dukkha'nti yath?bh?ta? paj?n?ti…pe… 'aya? dukkhanirodhag?min? pa?ipad?'ti yath?bh?ta? paj?n?ti. Aya? vuccati, bhikkhave, adhipaññ?sikkh?. Im? kho, bhikkhave, tisso sikkh?''ti. Navama?. - PTS A 1.235 Training in higher wisdom (adhipaññ?sikkh?) implies seeing 4NT as it is (which is often completed and culminates at Arahatship). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.088.than.html "And what is the training in heightened discernment (adhipaññ?sikkh?)? There is the case where a monk, through the ending of the mental fermentations, enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & made them manifest for himself right in the here & now. This is called the training in heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.089.than.html In Puggalapaññattip??i it says that paññ?vimutto Arhat does not have eight liberations (8 jh?nas?) but through paññ? he is liberated from the taints. Katamo ca puggalo paññ?vimutto? Idhekacco puggalo na heva kho a??ha vimokkhe k?yena phusitv? viharati paññ?ya cassa disv? ?sav? parikkh??? honti. Aya? vuccati puggalo paññ?vimutto. PTS 73 So this seems to justify dry insight in Tipitaka. With metta, Alex #115695 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Hi Alex, Alex wrote: Thank you for that post. Do you have something like this: "Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment (adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya), but not internal tranquillity of awareness(ajjhatta? cetosamathassa)... So if adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya and adhipaññ?sikkh? are identical in meaning, then it suggests that one can just do it for Arahatship and without having attained ajjhatta? cetosamathassa before. AN3.88, AN3.89 and AN 4.94 if taken together, imply the existence of dry arahatship." Kevin: Of course, just as is exampled in the Susima Sutta. It's very clear from the Sutta itself that the 500 Arahants in that group attained Arahtship without jhana (though the twisted translator disagrees). The Commentary is as explicit as can be about this point. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115696 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 All, More on dry insight attainments. A certain laymen attained the Dhamma. This is the story. I reproduce it for you. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html#sect25 25. A Certain Layman Hunger is the greatest disease... This instruction was given by the Teacher while he was in residence at Alavi with reference to a certain lay disciple. For one day, as the Teacher seated in the Perfumed Chamber at Jetavana surveyed the world at dawn, he beheld a certain poor man at Alavi. Perceiving that he possessed the faculties requisite for attaining the fruit of stream-entry, he surrounded himself with a company of five hundred monks and went to Alavi. The inhabitants of Alavi straightaway invited the Teacher to be their guest. That poor man also heard that the Teacher had arrived and made up his mind to go and hear the Teacher teach the Dhamma. But that very day an ox of his strayed off. So he considered within himself, "Shall I seek that ox, or shall I go and hear the Dhamma?" And he came to the following conclusion, "I will first seek that ox and then go and hear the Dhamma." Accordingly, early in the morning, he set out to seek his ox. The residents of Alavi said provided seats for the Order of Monks presided over by the Buddha, served them with food, and after the meal took the Teacher's bowl, that he might pronounce the words of rejoicing. Said the Teacher, "He for whose sake I came here on a journey of thirty leagues has gone into the forest to seek his ox which was lost. I will not teach the Dhamma until he returns." And he remained silent. While it was still day, that poor man found his ox and straightaway drove the ox back to the herd. Then he thought to himself, "Even if I can do nothing else, I will at least pay my respects to the Teacher." Accordingly, although he was oppressed with the pangs of hunger, he decided not to go home, but went quickly to the Teacher, and having paid obeisance to the Teacher, sat down respectfully on one side. When the poor man came and stood before the Teacher, the Teacher said to the steward of the alms, "Is there any food left over by the Order of Monks?" - "Reverend sir, it is all there." - "Well then, serve this poor man with food." So when the steward had provided that poor man with a seat in a place indicated by the Teacher, he served him dutifully with rice-porridge and other food, both hard and soft. When the poor man had eaten his meal he rinsed his mouth. (We are told that with this single exception there is no other instance on record in the Three Pitakas of the Tathagata's having thus inquired about the supply of food.) As soon as the poor man's physical sufferings had been relieved his mind became tranquil. Then the Teacher taught the Dhamma in orderly sequence, expounding one after another the Four Noble Truths. At the conclusion of the lesson, the poor man was established in the fruit of stream-entry. Then the Teacher pronounced the words of thanksgiving, and having done so, arose from his seat and departed. The multitude accompanied him a little way and then turned back. The monks who accompanied the Teacher were highly indignant and said, "Just consider, brethren, what the Teacher did. Nothing of the sort ever happened before. But today, seeing a certain poor man, the Teacher inquired about the supply of food and directed that food to be given to another." The Teacher turned around, stopped, and said, "Monks, what are you saying?" When he heard what they were saying, he said to them, "It is even so, monks. When I came here on a journey of thirty leagues, a long and difficult journey, my sole reason for coming was the fact that I saw that this lay disciple possessed the faculties requisite for the attainment of the fruit of stream-entry. Early in the morning, oppressed with the pangs of hunger, this man went to the forest and spent the day in the forest seeking his ox which was lost. Therefore I thought to myself, 'If I preach Dhamma to this man while he is suffering from the pangs of hunger, he will not be able to comprehend it.' Therefore I did what I did. Monks, there is no affliction like the affliction of hunger." So saying, he pronounced the following stanza: Hunger is the greatest disease, Conditioned things are the greatest suffering. For one who has known this as it is Nibbana is the bliss supreme. - Dhp 203 ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115697 From: Vince Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:17 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina you wrote: > N: Ignorance of the nature of realities, of their being impermanent, > dukkha, anatta. > There can be clinging to the effort to understand, you are right. No > use of trying. But we cannot force ourselves to be detached, it is > pa~n~na's work. yes, thanks. My question arose forgetting the detachement also is the work of panna. I forget again and again... And is worse forgeting the basic things than ignoring new ones :( Vince. #115698 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- On Thu, 9/6/11, Robert E wrote: > > >>S: p.s Rather busy the next few days and next week going to Guangzhou in China with friends to study yoga with Mr Iyengar, himself! > ... > > R:>Wow, that's amazing! > ... > A: Thx for your anecdotes:-) Yes, I'll be away until Monday with v.limited (if any) internet access. > > Yes, I'll take anything else off-list unless I can somehow link it into a dhamma thread:-) Sure thing. Please tell me how it goes - and any interesting details - off-list! :-) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - #115699 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:18 pm Subject: Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Yes, this is why there has to be the development of understanding which eventually directly knows the arising and falling away of dhammas, not just the falling away, as you say. This is at the third stage of insight: Okay, good to know. ... > "He understands thus: 'There is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to its arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere any depository in the way of a heap or store or hoard of what has ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (cf S.iv, 197), but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lute's neck, and the man's appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes - so too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, and having been, they vanish', " I enjoyed reading this passage very much, and I like the idea of the existent reality arising out of nothing, as it were, but the present conditions. However, it doesn't quite account for the mysterious passing on of accumulations, tendencies and qualities that continue in development. Do all of these passed-on elements all arise, perfectly configured, as it were, out of nothing? When the lute is plucked and the vibration arises, it arises out of a structure that is intact, a solid construction that is capable of playing that particular note in that vibration. I wonder what the equivalent structure is in the arising of a perfectly configured citta, with all the qualities and accumulations of the citta before it? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #115700 From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality talks Part 4 hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Kevin F and Nina, I thank you both very much for letting me know the following two conditions. 1. Conascent kamma-condition (sahajaata-kamma-paccaya). 2. Asynchronous kamma-condition (naa.nakkha.nika-kamma-paccaya). I also thank you for referring to the Conditional Relations, Faultless Triplet, Para 427. (ii) (a) Conascent faultless volition is related to mind-produced matter by kamma condition. (ii) (b) Asynchronous faultless volition is related to (its) resultant aggregates and kamma-produced matter by kamma condition. I believe what we usually understand by *kamma* is the asynchronous kamma-condition (naa.nakkha.nika-kamma-paccaya), pertaining to kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa which is able to produce later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind. I am also glad to note that some kammas produce their results *in the same life* in which they were committed, some in the next life, some in later lives. Although the kamma that produces results in the same life may be a very weak one, I am a strong believer in it. with metta and respect, Han #115701 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dry insight in sutta/tipitaka nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-jun-2011, om 1:11 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > "Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight > into phenomena through heightened discernment > (adhipaññ?dhammavipassan?ya), but not internal tranquillity of > awareness(ajjhatta? cetosamathassa). " ------ N: Thank you for the texts with the Pali. Just now there is the same discussion on the Pali list and if you do not mind, I shall use your references. Nina. #115702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:00 pm Subject: Momentary death. nilovg Dear Phil, I came just accross a former message of Sarah which touches on the subject of momentary death we have been discussing: Sarah: < S: Yes, I've been reflecting on death and giving comfort to those who are dying or experiencing loss. As it happens, a very close family friend died last week in England too. I'm thinking of 'just like now'. We all have fears about dying, loss and so on, but usually forget that death is just another moment, just like now. Just as there is seeing and hearing now conditioned by attachment and ignorance in the past, so there will continue to be seeing and hearing. Just as we live mostly in a dream world, lost in stories of conventional realities, so will we continue to live in such a world in future, on and on. Just as now, there is only the present moment, only the present object appearing, so it will be in future. Just as now, we don't own anything, whatever we have will be left behind, from moment to moment, so it will be in future. Just as we forget so many details, so many friends, so in future will everything and everyone we cling to now be forgotten. Just realities rolling on. Actually, there's nothing to fear at all because death is just another moment, like now. It's just like sleeping and waking up again to more sense experiences and thinking about them. No self involved at all.> (end quote) ------- Nina. #115703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Sarah and Rob E, Op 17-jun-2011, om 6:23 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > S: p.s Rather busy the next few days and next week going to > Guangzhou in China with friends to study yoga with Mr Iyengar, > himself! ------ N: I became rather curious. Perhaps you can link it with Dhamma? What benefit is there with such a course? Health? But ruupa conditions naama. There are only naama and ruupa. Perhaps there was a Dhamma talk? Nina. #115704 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/17/2011 1:18:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Yes, this is why there has to be the development of understanding which eventually directly knows the arising and falling away of dhammas, not just the falling away, as you say. This is at the third stage of insight: Okay, good to know. ... > "He understands thus: 'There is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to its arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere any depository in the way of a heap or store or hoard of what has ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (cf S.iv, 197), but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lute's neck, and the man's appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes - so too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, and having been, they vanish', " I enjoyed reading this passage very much, and I like the idea of the existent reality arising out of nothing, as it were, but the present conditions. However, it doesn't quite account for the mysterious passing on of accumulations, tendencies and qualities that continue in development. Do all of these passed-on elements all arise, perfectly configured, as it were, out of nothing? When the lute is plucked and the vibration arises, it arises out of a structure that is intact, a solid construction that is capable of playing that particular note in that vibration. I wonder what the equivalent structure is in the arising of a perfectly configured citta, with all the qualities and accumulations of the citta before it? ------------------------------------------------------- H: Some events are conditioned by immediate preconditions, and some only by earlier, even long-passed, preconditions. It is mere this/that-conditionality, with there being no literal stores of anything. Whatever occurs does so that very instant and does not outlive that instant. When a condition occurs, a volition for example, it is right then and there a condition for the consequences of it. A consequence of a condition (eventually) occurs when, but not before, all the preconditions for the consequence have been met. Nothing literally accumulates in the sense of being stored up. The term 'accumulations' is only metaphorical, as I understand the matter. ------------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. =============================== With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #115705 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:59 am Subject: What is Contact? bhikkhu5 Friends: Contact is a Meeting of 3 Phenomena! The blessed Buddha once defined sense Contact (phassa) like this: In dependence the eye and forms, visual consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena is eye contact. In dependence the ear and sounds, auditory consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena is ear contact. In dependence the nose and odours, olfactory consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena is nose contact. In dependence the tongue and flavours, gustatory consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena is tongue contact. In dependence the body and touches, tactile consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena is body contact. In dependence the mind and thoughts, mental consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena is mind contact. Conditioned by Contact, feeling comes into being. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. Conditioned by craving, clinging emerges. Conditioned by clinging, becoming appears. Conditioned by becoming, rebirth happens. Conditioned by birth, ageing, sickness and death arrive! Such is this conditioned origin of that whole accumulation of suffering...! Conditioned by Contact, feeling arises. But by the complete stilling, fading all away and ceasing of that very same craving, comes the instantaneous cessation of clinging! The ending of clinging ceases becoming. The ending of becoming ceases any future rebirth. The ending of birth ceases ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, pain and panic! That is the conditioned ceasing of this entire massive bulk of suffering...! Source (edited excerpt): The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya. Book II 74-5 The section on Causation 12. Thread on Natika: 45. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita #115706 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:50 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114971) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > I think I'm going to have to agree that any kind of genuine mindfulness will have to be "actual mindfulness." I guess the question is what is the level of seeing and understanding that has to be developed for such to take place. >=============== J: My understanding on the question of the level of seeing and understanding that has to be developed in order for genuine/actual mindfulness to take place is that mindfulness and the seeing and understanding of dhammas go hand in hand (and so there's no particular level of one that's a prerequisite for the other) >=============== [RE:] I am thinking that one can be still in a pretty ordinary state of mind but with some development of understanding and some development of concentration and clear seeing that would allow for real moments of mindfulness to arise and be recognized, that's all. >=============== J: If you're talking about previously accumulated development of understanding, then I'd agree that this is necessary for there to be mindfulness arising. >=============== > [RE:] The idea that kusala breeds kusala, and mindfulness breeds mindfulness, has a little bit of infinite regress to it. There have to be moments that arise that happen out of actually seeing at the moment - that moment that everyone is so fond of - not just out of the re-emergence of previous accumulations. >=============== J: But these moments of mindfulness or other kusala that, as you put it, 'happen out of actually seeing at the moment', are surely instances of the arising of previously accumulated kusala also. The alternative would seem to be kusala arising out of nowhere ;-)) The kusala (and akusala too for that matter) arises within a stream of cittas, so it must be 'there' somewhere already. By the way, I've not been saying that the conditions for the arising of kusala are just the previously accumulated tendency. There must be other conditions as well (such as hearing the teachings appropriately explained). >=============== > [RE:] I may actually be suggesting that, just as learning to walk arises from a series of "almost-walkings," rather than from "previously well-accomplished" walkings, there is development rather than wholly-formed moments of total mindfulness floating around which lead to further ones at unspecified times of arising. >=============== J: Yes, this is what I call the 'practice makes perfect' simile. But as far as I know, no such simile was ever given by the Buddha. >=============== I have a more mundane view of development, and don't adhere to the idea that there is a radical wholly-formed arising of an ideal moment of sati that somehow gets produced - don't see how it would. As I imply above, mindfulness is seeing clearly and that is something that is developed and perfected through developmental stages. I see that in most Buddhist practice, and I see that in the stages outlined in the Visuddhimagga and various suttas, so it doesn't seem strange to me at all. It also fits with other developmental experiences we have, such as learning anything at all. We learn a bit at a time and eventually piece together the whole. The idea that mindfulness moments - or kusala moments - are "perfect" little units and arise as "wholes" which then lead to further "perfect wholes" arising later seems like an idealistic view of development that is Platonic [to use one popular example] in nature. I don't see the basis for thinking that things develop that way, in perfect jumps, rather than in gradual steps. I don't see it in the Dhamma, and don't understand why it is or should be so. It doesn't seem necessary to me at all in order to understand the progression of insight and understanding that mark the path. >=============== J: How plausible or not the description contained in the commentaries seems is not really a suitable touchstone. Our ideas of what is plausible are tainted by ignorance, wrong view and other accumulated akusala tendencies :-)) Better just to acknowledge what the texts say and let the matter rest there. Jon #115707 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:55 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... >=============== > > J: Not sure that I appreciate the significance of your comment "more of a process" in the context of mindfulness being something that occurs at a time, and with an object, that is not of any person's choosing. > > [RE:] I don't see it as being an on/off switch that has perfect on one side and not-at-all on the other side, but something more gradual and developmental. You see black and white with absolute polarization between the two, I see gray and gradations of development. I don't believe in absolute mindfulness or absolute kusala, but with degrees and developments. So I guess I'm not too much in the "paramatha" club of absolute splittist perfection. >=============== J: If you're referring to the momentary consciousness level, then the Theravada position is quite clear. There are only 4 classes of citta (kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya) so that, in the case of javana cittas, the choice is either kusala or akusala. Of course, at a more conventional level, mind states will, for the worldling, be mixed. Is this what you're referring to? >=============== > > J: The conditions for the arising of path moments include the hearing of the teachings and appropriate reflection on what has been heard and understood, rather than the doing of certain things or "doing nothing". > > [RE:] So when you say "include" you mean "only?" It sounds like you exclude anything *but* "the hearing of the teachings and appropriate reflection on what has been heard and understood." I will continue to disagree that the path arises by itself from nothing other than right understanding, and that no other activities or path factors come into play except as derivatives of Dhamma study. That is too extreme of radical splittism for me. >=============== J: Would just like to understand what you mean by the other activities or path factors that come into play. Is it your view mean that, even for the person who has heard and understood the Dhamma, there can be no mindfulness, of whatever level, without first doing some kind of practice or some of the activities mentioned by the Buddha? Or do you say that for the person who has heard and understood the Dhamma, mindfulness may arise but its development can only go so far without the doing of some kind of practice/activities? I would say that both of those scenarios are contradicted by the many suttas in which people attained enlightenment while hearing the teaching for the first time. >=============== > > [J:] So there is no practice to be done (in the context of the development of the path, "practice" refers to actual path moments, not doing certain things in order to induce path moments to arise). > > > > Hoping this clarifies my earlier comment as requested. > > [RE:] Yes, it clarifies, and I disagree, as usual. The idea that absolute non-activity [as regards the path] is necessary to avoid self-view I think is pretty extreme, and not what the Buddha appears to say anywhere, ever, in any sutta, as far as I know. >=============== J: Absolute non-activity? I have never put forward nor implied support for such a teaching. What I'm suggesting is that what you take for activities to be performed were not intended as such, but as descriptions of (purely) mental states arising by conditions. Nothing `extreme' about that, surely ;-)) Radical, yes (the Buddha's teaching was that). Jon #115708 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:06 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses jonoabb Hi Lucas (114973) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > ... > L: Yes but even it seems that some actions or thinkings are done deliberately, this is only conditioned element. No choosing at all. For example, when I wonder to say good morning to someone or not, and I said it, this was conditioned. It's gone now. All such deliberate actions they are all conditioned. >=============== J: Very true. Even so-called deliberate actions are conditioned. There are times, for example, when we determine not to act (or react) in a certain way but find ourselves doing so nonetheless. But my point was just that kusala *does* occur from time to time without any deliberate, conscious intention on our part. At such moments the calm of kusala is there to be known, if only we were capable of knowing that ;-)) The idea that certain activities, done properly, will spur the arising of more kusala at the time or shortly afterwards is not an idea that I find expressed in the teachings. >=============== > [L:] I was wondering on sanjasankharapapanca. This is the whole stream of thinking that happens? Cause one thought, this condition another. >=============== J: Sorry but I'm not familiar with this term. I have pasted below something from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary (see the term "papanca-sannaa-sankhaa" at the end of the quoted passage), but it may not shed much light on the matter. >=============== And when thinking on control, this seems to be without any possibility to get out of such thinking. Probably it needs to burn out. And no our purposeful effort to get out from such kind of thoughts as thinking on control or efforts without real effort to stop it. >=============== J: I agree with you here. When we have ideas about doing this or that to change our thinking or our tendencies, it is just another moment of thinking motivated, perhaps, either by desire for attainment or by aversion at seeing an unwanted tendency. Jon From Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: ? papa?ca In doctrinal usage, it signifies the expansion, differentiation, 'diffuseness' or 'manifoldness' of the world; and it may also refer to the 'phenomenal world' in general, and to the mental attitude of 'worldliness'. ... - For the psychological sense of 'differentiation', see M. 18 (Madhupindika Sutta): "Whatever man conceives (vitakketi) that he differentiates (papanceti); and what he differentiates, by reason thereof ideas and considerations of differentiation (papanca-sannaa-sankhaa) arise in him." #115709 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:09 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan. philofillet Hell(o) Nina! > N: You do not have to call it hell, but by this word is indicated the > high intensity of an unhappy plane. There are many degrees of unhappy > planes. > We do not know in how many kinds of unhappy planes we were born > before this life. Now we are in the human plane where we can still > develop understanding and this understanding is never lost, even if > the next rebirth is rebirth in an unhappy plane. > At this moment we can only think of a next rebirth, and the reality > is thinking. Each citta that arises and falls away is anattaa, beyond > control, no matter it is seeing, thinking, dying-consciousness or > rebirth-consciousness. Ph: Nicely said! It does not make much sense to think about the > kind of rebirth we shall have, we cannot change this, anyway. Ph: We cannot change it for sure, but I beleive we (so to speak) can influence the probability. I am not in a position to debate it, but I suspect that the cittas in this lifetime have more impact than those in countless past lifetimes. If they didn't why would the Buddha so often urge his listeners to consider destinations of woe. You are a good Dhamma friend, Nina, but you cannot outweigh the Buddha. There must be some reason that, for example, Dhammapada *and* Buddhagosa's commentary to Dhammapada contain so many reminders to, for example, prepare provisions for one's departure from this world, and those provisions are to accumulate wholesome kamma. If there was no real possibility of our kamma from this lifetime increasing the probability of a good destination, why would the Buddha mention it so often? You might be right, and that's fine. Whether I'm right or not, whether I want to change my mind or not, I will continue believing that there can be an influencing of one's destination, I'm impressed by DHammapada and commmentary to Dhammapada. Perhaps I should provide some pasages, maybe another time. I am not as diligent as Kevin! The > best way not to be negligent is studying with awareness the citta at > this moment, also when it is thinking of rebirth. In that way we > shall better understand the meaning of momentary death. > Ph: Well, I still don't quite understand why the rising and falling away of a citta is momentary death, though you have kindly attempted to get it across to me. Thank you, Nina, I will drop it there. Metta, Phil #115710 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dry insight in sutta/tipitaka truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > N: Thank you for the texts with the Pali. Just now there is the same > discussion on the Pali list and if you do not mind, I shall use your > references. You are welcome. If any interesting sutta quotes found there, please post them here. With metta, Alex #115711 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. farrellkevin80 Dear All, Here is another important story about dry-insight attainment. This one is especially for you Alex. Please read it in full. 29. The Elder Bahiya Daruciriya Though a thousand verses are made of meaningless lines... This instruction was given by the Teacher while he was in residence at Jetavana with reference to the Elder Bahiya Daruciriya, Bahiya of the Bark Garment. For once upon a time a party of men set out to sea in a ship. When they were well out to sea, the ship sprang a leak. Thereupon all of the men, with a single exception, became food for fishes and tortoises. Only one man, who seized a plank and struggled with all his might, succeeded in reaching land near Supparaka Port. When he came to land, he lacked both under and upper garments. So for lack of anything better, he wrapped himself with dry twigs and sticks and bark, and obtaining a potsherd from the royal household, went to Supparaka Port. All who saw him gave him broth, rice-porridge, and other kinds of food, and did reverence to him, saying, "This is an arahant." He thought, "If I clothe myself in under and upper garments of fine texture, I shall no longer receive gain and honor." Therefore he avoided such garments, using only the bark of trees to clothe himself. As many persons greeted him with the salutation "Arahant! Arahant!" the following consideration presented itself to his mind, "Am I perhaps one of those who are arahants in this world, or who have entered the path leading to arahantship?" Thereupon a certain thought occurred to a deity who was a former blood-relative of his. Story of the Past By "former blood-relative" is meant one who formerly practiced meditation with him. It appears that in former times, when the dispensation of the Buddha Kassapa was disappearing from the earth, seven monks, observing a change for the worse in the conduct of novices and others, their emotions deeply stirred, said to themselves, "So long as our dispensation has not yet disappeared, we will establish ourselves in it." So after reverencing their golden shrine, they entered the forest, and seeing a certain mountain, they said, "Let those who still cherish attachment for the life of this world turn back; let those who have rid themselves of such attachment ascend this mountain." Thereupon they set up a ladder, and all of them ascended the mountain, whereupon they kicked the ladder down and devoted themselves to meditation. After but a single night had passed, one of them, the elder of the assembly, attained arahantship. The elder of the assembly chewed a tooth-stick of serpent-creeper at Lake Anotatta, rinsed his mouth, brought food from North Kuru, and said to those monks, "Friends, chew this tooth-stick, rinse your mouths, and then eat this food." But this they refused to do, saying, "But, reverend sir, did we make the following agreement, 'All shall eat the food brought by him who first attains arahantship'?" - "We made no such agreement, friends." - "Well then, if, like you, we also develop something special, we will bring food for ourselves and eat it." On the second day the second elder attained the fruit of the third path, whereupon he likewise brought food to the monks and invited them to eat it. But they said, "But, reverend sir, did we agree not to eat the food brought by the chief elder, but to eat that which should be brought by a subordinate elder?" - "We did not so agree, friends." - "In that case, if, like you, we also develop something special, we shall be able by our own unaided efforts to provide ourselves with food, and we shall so provide ourselves with food." Thus did they refuse to eat the food he had brought. Of the seven monks, the elder of the assembly who had attained arahantship attained (final) Nibbana; he who had attained the fruit of the third path was reborn in the Brahma-world; and the remaining five, unable to develop something special, wasted and withered away, died on the seventh day, and were reborn in the world of the gods. In the period of this present Buddha they passed from that state of existence and were reborn in various households. One of them was King Pukkusati, one was Kumara Kassapa, one was Daruciriya, one was Dabba Mallaputta, and one was the monk Sabhiya. The term "former blood-relative" therefore refers to the monk who was reborn in the Brahma-world. The Story of Bahiya Daruciriya (concluded) To this denizen of the Brahma-world, then, occurred the following thought, "This man was associated with me in setting up the ladder and in the ascent of the mountain and in the practice of meditation; but now he has adopted false views, and by his present course of conduct he is in danger of perdition; I will stir him up." Accordingly he approached him and spoke thus, "Bahiya, you are not an arahant, nor have you entered the path that leads to arahantship; moreover, the course that you have adopted is not such that you will thereby attain arahantship or enter the path that leads to arahantship." As Maha Brahma, poised in the air, spoke these words, Bahiya looked upon him and thought to himself, "Oh, what a plight I am in! I thought to myself, 'I am an arahant'; but that spirit says to me, 'You are not an arahant, nor have you entered the path that leads to arahantship.' Is there perhaps any other arahant in the world?" Accordingly Bahiya asked the spirit, "Deity, are there perhaps now in the world arahants or those who have entered the path leading to arahantship?" Then the deity informed him as follows, "Bahiya, there lies to the north a city named Savatthi; and there, at the present time, dwells he that is the Exalted One, the Arahant of arahants, the Supremely Enlightened One; and he that is the Exalted One, the Arahant of arahants, preaches the truth of arahantship." As Bahiya listened in the night time to the speech of the deity, he became deeply moved in his heart; and instantly departing from Supparaka, within a single night he arrived at Savatthi.[13] At the moment when he arrived, the Teacher had entered the city for alms. When Bahiya had finished breakfast, he observed many monks taking their exercise in the open air by walking up and down, and he asked them, "Where is the Teacher now?" Said the monks, "He has just entered Savatthi for alms." Then the monks asked Bahiya, "But from where have you come?" - "I have come from Supparaka." - "When did you leave Supparaka?" - "Yesterday evening." - "You have come a long way. Just sit down, bathe your feet, anoint them with oil, and rest a while. When the Teacher returns, you will see him." - "Reverend sir, I do not know when the Teacher may die, or when I may die myself. I came here in the space of but a single night, neither stopping nor sitting down anywhere to rest. I have come on a journey of a hundred and twenty leagues. As soon as I have seen the Teacher, I will rest." When he had thus spoken, his body trembling all over, he entered Savatthi and beheld the Exalted One making his round for alms with the incomparable grace of a Buddha. He said to himself, "At long last I see Gotama, the Supremely Enlightened One." And from the point where he had first seen him, he proceeded with his body inclined in an attitude of profound reverence; even as he stood in the street, he paid obeisance to him, and took him firmly by the ankles, and spoke thus to him, "Let the Exalted One teach me the Dhamma; let the Happy One teach me the Dhamma, that it may for a long time lead to my welfare and salvation." But the Teacher turned him away, saying, "You come at the wrong time, Bahiya; I have entered among the houses for alms." When Bahiya heard these words, he said, "Reverend sir, as I have passed through the round of existences, previously I have received solid food, but I do not know the hour when you or I shall die; then teach me the Dhamma." But the Teacher turned him away the second time as before. (This, we are told, was the thought that occurred to him: "From the time this man first saw me, his whole body has been suffused with joy; from the great shock of joy he has received, though he should listen to the Dhamma, he would not be able to comprehend it. Let him remain for a time in a state of placid equanimity.") Therefore the Teacher turned him away twice. When Bahiya put his request the third time, the Teacher, remaining where he was in the street, said to him: "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then Bahiya, you will not be 'with that' (wrong view, passion etc.); when Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then Bahiya, you will not be 'in that situation' (of being impassioned by passion, enraged be hate, deluded by delusion); when Bahiya, you are not 'in that situation,' then Bahiya, you will be neither 'here' (in this world) nor 'beyond' (in the next life) nor 'in between both' (going from one to another). Just this is the end of suffering."[14] Even as Bahiya listened to the Teacher's discourse, he threw off all the taints and attained arahantship together with the analytical knowledges. Straightaway he asked the Teacher to admit him to the Order. The Teacher asked him, "Have you bowl and robe complete?" - "I have not bowl and robe complete," replied Bahiya. Then the Teacher said to him, "Well then, seek bowl and robe." So saying, the Teacher went his way. As Bahiya was seeking bowl and robe, a certain ogress in the form of a heifer approached, struck him with her left shoulder, and deprived him of life. The Teacher, after making his round for alms and after eating his breakfast, came forth with a large company of monks and saw the body of Bahiya lying prostrate on the dust-heap. Straightaway he commanded the monks as follows, "Monks, bring a litter which stands at the door of a certain house, carry the body of this man out of the city, burn it, and erect a mound over the remains." The monks did so, and having so done, returned to the monastery, approached the Teacher, told him what they had done, and inquired about the future state of the dead man. Thereupon the Teacher announced that he had attained Nibbana, and assigned him pre-eminence, saying, "Monks, pre-eminent among my disciples and monks who are quick to learn the truth is Bahiya Daruciriya." Then the monks asked him, "Reverend sir, you say, 'Bahiya Daruciriya has attained arahantship'; when did he attain arahantship?" - "Monks, it was when he heard me preach the Dhamma." - "But when did you preach the Dhamma to him?" - "While I was making my rounds for alms, standing in the middle of the street." - "Was not the discourse you delivered standing in the middle of the street an extremely short one, reverend sir? How was it that he developed something special after hearing so very little?" Then the Teacher said to them, "Monks, do not measure my Dhamma as being 'little' or 'much.' There is no virtue even in many thousands of stanzas. A single line of a stanza which contains the truth is better." And when he had thus spoken, he showed the connection, and teaching the Dhamma, he pronounced the following stanza: Though a thousand verses Are made of meaningless lines, Better the single meaningful line By hearing which one is at peace." Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115712 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:43 pm Subject: What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (114980) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > Well, the sutta below suggests that one must establish the jhanas in order to reach enlightenment, and then gives the example of one who does so. a/ it establishes the jhanas as an absolutely essential part of the path to enlightenment, and b/ it gives the equivalent of an admonition and instruction about what order of practice to follow to get there: > =============== J: Thanks for the sutta passage. Just a general comment before responding to your comments. As is often the case in the suttas, a general statement is proclaimed and is then explained as to its meaning. The formulation is something like this: "I tell you 'X'. 'X' has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where A, B, C ..." It is the ABC part that conveys the Buddha's teaching (the X part was sometimes a peg for the hat of the particular teaching to be hung on). > =============== > [RE:] > Anguttara Nikaya IX.36 > Jhana Sutta > Mental Absorption > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ati_website/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.ht\ ml > > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. > > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' > > Note that Buddha does not just say "One versed in jhana can make it an object of insight." In fact he never says this. Instead he says: I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' >=============== J: If your point is that the passage does not expressly mention *mastery* of jhana, then I'd agree. (If, however, you're suggesting that the passage does not refer to jhana citta as object of insight, then I'd disagree.) >=============== > [RE:] He uses the word "depends on," establishing that it is absolutely necessary and that the result in question cannot occur without this. >=============== J: The term "depends on" in the suttas has many meanings, from a supporting factor to a prerequisite. It depends on the context (so to speak ;-)) >=============== [RE:] And he traces the entire passage from delusion to enlightenment through the development of the jhanas and then the formless attainments, in a specific order, which is also the order that he followed both in reaching enlightenment and in completing his parinibbana. >=============== J: (I would say that the passage for each of the 4 jhanas describes the attainment of enlightenment. No suggestion of the same person attaining successively higher levels of jhana. This distinguishes the description here from the Buddha's own case.) Now my comments on the passage. On my reading, there are 3 parts to the detailed explanation of what is meant by the statement "the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana", namely: 1. The first sentence which describes the monk having entered the first jhana 2. The sentence "He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, ... not-self." 3. The sentence that begins, "He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness ...". The first part describes the monk in jhana, and the third part the monk's attainment of enlightenment. The second part is standard awareness/insight of the 5 khandhas, namely, that the dhammas of the 5 khandhas are seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Note the phrase "whatever phenomena *there*". I take "there" to be, or at least to include, "in jhana". Thus, insight with jhana citta (among other dhammas) as object. It goes without saying, I think, that the monk is a person who has already developed insight to a high degree. The sutta is not to be read as saying that if jhana is developed, insight knowledge not previously developed somehow then arises and starts seeing dhammas as they are. >=============== > > J: The references to jhana as basis for insight mean that the (immediately past) jhana cittas are the object of insight. As I think you will appreciate, this is not a kind of 'practice' that can be deliberately undertaken. > > [RE:] No, I do not agree with that at all. Of course it is the result of serious and sustained practice. It will not happen by pure happenstance, nor by accidental arising of samatha here and there in the past. One is instructed to enter the jhanas and then to entertain them in the way described as objects of insight. >=============== J: The idea that this sutta is an instruction to enter jhanas and then make the jhana the object of insight is a particular interpretation of the passage. I see no indication of an instruction in it, and no statement to the effect that insight can only be developed if jhana has first been attained (which is how I am reading your interpretation of this passage). >=============== > > [J:] It happens or doesn't depending on the level of developed jhana and insight. It is not a case of jhana being 'used' for the purpose of developing insight. > > [RE:] And how is jhana developed to that point? That is the part you tend to leave out. It is developed through sustained and purposeful practice, and will not develop any other way, as it is a highly specialized technical state. >=============== J: Yes, jhana is a highly developed state, not easy to attain. But the question for us is how samatha is developed at our (relatively beginning) level, since we are not in a position to aspire to jhana. And texts such as the Vism that describe the development of samatha at levels approaching jhana, by monks who meet all the preliminary criteria that are given as necessary, are of little or no relevance in answering that question. >=============== > > J: As previously explained, the path factors are indeed that: factors of the path. They are not given as practices to be undertaken, whether separately or in combination, as some kind of pre-path drills ;-)). > > [RE:] Actually they are, and if you read the Jhana Sutta cited above you will see the generic example of a monk who cultivates each jhana in order towards and culminating in enlightenment. >=============== J: As I said above, it is not a case of a monk attaining successive jhanas. Enlightenment is described in the context of each of the 4 jhanas. >=============== > > J: Textual basis for the idea that `one develops initial insight within the setting of the conventional world'? > > [RE:] I'll have to look around. Anyway, I've given you one sutta above, so you owe me a commentary. :-) >=============== J: ;-)) Am keeping this in mind any time I look up something in the texts. Jon #115713 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:00 am Subject: What is Nibbãna? bhikkhu5 Friends: The Absolute and Ultimate Release Beyond! A wandering friend once asked the Great Disciple: Friend Sariputta, Nibb?na, Nibb?na is it said! What is this Nibb?na? The destruction of Greed, the destruction of Hate, and the destruction of Ignorance! This, friend, is called Nibb?na … But, friend, is there a method, is there a way to reach this Nibb?na? There is indeed a method, friend, there is indeed a way to reach Nibb?na! What, friend, is then this method, what is then that way to reach Nibb?na? It is, friend, simply the completion of this Noble 8-fold Way, namely: Right View (samm?-ditthi) Right Motivation (samm?-sankappa) Right Speech (samm?-v?c?) Right Action (samm?-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samm?-?j?va) Right Effort (samm?-v?y?ma) Right Awareness (samm?-sati) Right Concentration (samm?-sam?dhi) This is undeniably the very method, friend, the only way to reach Nibb?na! Oh excellent is this unique method, exquisite is this way to reach Nibb?na! This -in itself- is enough for me, friend Sariputta, to begin the endeavour! More on Nibb?na : A Quenched State of Maximum Peace, Freedom, and Bliss: Climax of Calm , Final Freedom , The Proximate Cause, Peace , Nibbana_Still, Nibbana or non-return, Reaching Peace, The_2_Nibbanas , The_Uncreated , How_to_Enter , Nibbana_True_Peace, The_Entrance , The_Unborn_State , The_Signless_Nibbana , Imperturbable_Equanimity, Doctrine of Nibbana, The_Deathless , The_Deathless_Dimension, Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya. Book IV [251] section 38:1 Questions on Nibb?na ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Sam?hita _/\_ * #115714 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:13 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (114983) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: It is by virtue of seeing dhammas as they truly are that the characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anatta come to be known. At such moments of seeing/panna, there is no conceptualisation. But the deliberate action of 'looking at' dhammas is not one of the conditions for that direct seeing to arise. > > [RE:] How about the deliberate action of thinking about such things, as is the habit in the "Right Understanding" school of thought? >=============== J: Nobody here has been suggesting a 'deliberate action of thinking'. In fact, quite the opposite, I'd have thought! >=============== > > J: To my understanding, it is not a matter of seeing music as mere audible object (that is to say, of applying intellectual understanding to concepts), but of audible object being seen as it truly is by awareness/insight that arises in its own good time, conditioned by hearing and reflecting on the teachings. > > [RE:] I think it's going to be a long wait. >=============== J: It's not a matter of waiting. Remember, neither by struggling (practices) nor by standing still (waiting/doing nothing) was the stream crossed. But in terms of how long it will take for enlightenment to be attained, we can only say that the more correct the understanding, the shorter the time ;-)) >=============== > > J: The problem is not the concepts or the conceptualising, but the lack of panna that sees things as they truly are: dhammas as dhammas (and concepts as concepts). > > [RE:] That may be so, but the question as always is whether one has anything to do. Being a radical non-actionist you would have to err on the side of not-doing. It's very zen of you really. ;-) >=============== J: You think so? Then how come I don't go down well with the zen folks either? ;-)) However, moved by you comment, let me just say that, in a nutshell: Dhammas arising now, Panna previously accumulated; But ignorance and wrong view hold sway. Without the teachings well heard and reflected upon, No chance for dormant panna to be roused. Jon #115715 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:23 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (114984) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I'm all for concepts being known as concepts, or at least not taken for dhammas, but I think this is knowledge that comes from the understanding of dhammas as dhammas, not from studying concepts/conventional objects. > > [RE:] And what does one do when concepts arise? >=============== J: Concepts don't arise, but in any event the question of what to do about then has no relevance to the development of the path, as far as I know. The Buddha spoke almost exclusively about awareness of dhammas. >=============== > > J: Right, but clarifying one's intellectual/theoretical understanding of things is definitely helpful. > > [RE:] I thought that studying concepts was the wrong way to go? >=============== J: Learning about dhammas, with the understanding that it is dhammas that are to be the object of insight, is not the same as having the idea that concepts should be the object of insight. >=============== > > J: Of course it's theoretical (theoretical understanding is all that can be discussed). But are you suggesting that awareness does not see dhammas as they really are, individually? > > [RE:] I think that awareness sees dhammas in exactly the way that it does. Is awareness perfect? Are dhammas perfectly formed and conforming to the definitions we have of them? That remains to be seen. >=============== J: Is awareness perfect? Well obviously beginning awareness/understanding does not penetrate dhammas fully. But it can also be said there is no degree of error in how it does see them. As regards dhammas and our present intellectual understanding of what they are/are like, obviously there's a very large gap to be bridged. That's why we need the assistance of the teachings. Without the explanation from the whole body of the texts, there would never be a sufficient basis for even beginning level panna to arise. >=============== > > J: To my understanding, direct understanding of dhammas involves the direct understanding of individual dhammas, that is to say, one dhamma at a time (although not one moment of one dhamma). If dhammas are not seen individually, then what exactly is the function of awareness? (Less fuzzy concepts, perhaps?) > > [RE:] How dhammas are seen by awareness remains to be seen. Whether individual dhammas arise with the kind of clarity that you think they do is uncertain. Generally speaking, nothing is as clean and definite as it is in theory. I am not sure if this is not also the case for dhammas. One dhamma at a time, one sense door at a time, each perfectly formed and conforming to a preset perfect set of rules and functions - all of this is theoretical and has not been confirmed by anyone presently alive, only by theoretically-based scripture. >=============== J: Well obviously we share the confidence that the Buddha knew the answers to the issues you mention. And we know that he spent 45 years trying to impart his knowledge to others (mainly to those who, because of insight developed in previous lives, where ready for enlightenment). And in discussing the meaning of what was said, we are able to take reference from the commentarial tradition that began during the Buddha's lifetime (with his blessing) and continued until about the time of the Abhidhammatta Sangaha and its commentaries. Jon #115716 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta. upasaka_howard Hi, Kevin (and Alex & all) - In a message dated 6/18/2011 2:09:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, farrellkevin80@... writes: Dear All, Here is another important story about dry-insight attainment. This one is especially for you Alex. Please read it in full. ================================== I'm not sure this is a sutta pertaining to dry-insight attainment. In the story, there is related the following: So, it is stated that in this past life, the one later to be reborn as Bahiya had been a monk who was seriously engaged in meditation. In his "present" life, Bahiya, already trained in the past, and after persisting in his request to hear the Dhamma from the Buddha, hears a deep teaching directly from the Buddha that triggers his awakening. This is a case of ripe fruit falling from the branch when properly shaken. I do not see it as an evident example of dry-insight attainment. With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #115717 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:38 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta. rjkjp1 Dear Nina Yes I was thinking of another text. I asked at the foundation today and one of the Pali experts found it in the thera/therigatha atthakatha, near the end. In this text it explains that all of the makasavaka , the eighty great discples which I think includes yasa, were jhana labhi. As I understand it due to their parami even they had no jhana before meeting Buddha it can happen that they gain mastery and powers coincident with attaining path and fruit. with respect robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Robert, > In this text there is no mentioning of any jhaana attainment. See > also Pali Proper Names, II, p. 685. Are you perhaps thinking of > another text? > Nina. > Op 14-jun-2011, om 13:18 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > > > But I had the idea that Yasa was one of those who attined jhana > > mastery at the time of penetrating the teachings and thus is > > considered jhana labhi rather than sukka vipassaka? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #115718 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:49 pm Subject: Re: dry insight & Jhana truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, What may be the case is that the peak of insight development is a sort of Jhana and thus even "dry-insighters" fulfill all factors. Another thing is that it may be possible that what counts as Jhana does not have to go to the extreme such as "if it ain't 4 hours sitting like a tree-stump with mind so concentrated that one can't have insight until one emerges from it, then it ain't real Jhana". IMHO. With Metta, Alex #115719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. nilovg Dear Robert, Op 18-jun-2011, om 14:38 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Yes I was thinking of another text. I asked at the foundation today > and one of the Pali experts found it in the thera/therigatha > atthakatha, near the end. > In this text it explains that all of the makasavaka , the eighty > great discples which I think includes yasa, were jhana labhi. > As I understand it due to their parami even they had no jhana > before meeting Buddha it can happen that they gain mastery and > powers coincident with attaining path and fruit. > -------- N: I am glad you gave me this info. I was just going to ask you again. Long ago I heard Kh Sujin mention that, due to former accumulations, it was possible that someone attained enlightenment as a jhaana labhii. it shows how careful one has to be with interpretations of texts. But I still wonder about all those texts about the gradual teaching where people attained without the Buddha even mentioning jhaana. Like the leper, Suppabuddha. Perhaps we can conclude to this when we are sure he was not one of the eighty great disciples? What do you think? ------- Nina. #115720 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > Dear Robert, > > Op 18-jun-2011, om 14:38 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > > > Yes I was thinking of another text. I asked at the foundation >today > > and one of the Pali experts found it in the thera/therigatha > > atthakatha, near the end. > > In this text it explains that all of the makasavaka , the eighty > > great discples which I think includes yasa, were jhana labhi. > > As I understand it due to their parami even they had no jhana > > before meeting Buddha it can happen that they gain mastery and > > powers coincident with attaining path and fruit. > > -------- > N: I am glad you gave me this info. I was just going to ask you > again. Long ago I heard Kh Sujin mention that, due to former > accumulations, it was possible that someone attained enlightenment >as a jhaana labhii. Right. The suttas physically cannot mention absolutely everything that a person did. The suttas often take a certain aspect of a story and talk about it. Often they focus on the Buddha's teaching, rather than all the hard work that a listener did prior. If a person was awakened during hearing the Buddha's lesson, there could be a lot of what was not mentioned in that sutta that the person did for ages in order to come to that point where listening to the Buddha could awaken him/her. This is why it is good to be very careful about drawing conclusions from such short stories. Just because they don't mention something, it doesn't mean that that didn't occur at some prior point. This is why I prefer definite statement by the Buddha to justify this or that viewpoint, rather than trying to induce something from incomplete case. With metta, Alex #115721 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:40 am Subject: Accumulations truth_aerator Hello Howard, Kevin, all To follow up. So if we take a simplistic attitude of accumulations, then we run into a trouble with infinite (or with huge) amount of rebirths. Lets take a metaphorical simile: If lets say we accumulate "1g" of quality (good or bad) per year, then within a single MahaKappa the mass will be as much or greater than this Earth's. With many such aeons there will be many such planet loads of Accumulations. If Awakening is a matter of accumulating enough wholesome qualities, then, at such rate, we would have been Awakened long time ago. Perhaps infinity into the past if we existed for infinite amount of time. But then, wouldn't we accumulate infinite or at least, very huge, amount of negative qualities, so as to be stuck? Also, where do the past accumulations of theoretic knowledge, and worldly skill go for a little baby? An Adult can have lots of worldly skill, lots of knowledge, etc. An infant does not. Infant has to relearn to walk, to talk, study how to do this or that, like s/he didn't know it before and start almost from a scratch! It seems that certain accumulations can be reset. Perhaps a way out of infinite past good/bad accumulations is that the more recently something was done, the more weight it has. The further away in time something was done, the less power it has. This (fading of effect through time) helps to have less conditioning power from the past and puts more weight to the present moment. Rather than relying too much on the past, one IMHO, needs to rely on the present moment. Perhaps it is the only moment there is, and what matters is what happens NOW. Maybe the present moment is direct outcome and accumulation of proximate past moment, and without a storehouse of accumulations having to exist somewhere/somehow. Strong and RIGHT effort now, being in the present can outweight past actions. If a person goes crazy and starts cutting oneself with the knife, how much was the pain due to things done in past life? Very little and indirectly. The crucial aspect was the actual cutting of oneself, and that can only happen or be stopped, in the now. We are not slaves to past conditionality. Dhamma is the way out, and the only moment to do it is now, the only moment there is. IMHO, With metta, Alex #115722 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/18/2011 11:40:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, Kevin, all To follow up. So if we take a simplistic attitude of accumulations, then we run into a trouble with infinite (or with huge) amount of rebirths. Lets take a metaphorical simile: If lets say we accumulate "1g" of quality (good or bad) per year, then within a single MahaKappa the mass will be as much or greater than this Earth's. With many such aeons there will be many such planet loads of Accumulations. If Awakening is a matter of accumulating enough wholesome qualities, then, at such rate, we would have been Awakened long time ago. Perhaps infinity into the past if we existed for infinite amount of time. ---------------------------------------------------- H: Awakening is due to occurences, to conditions. When and if the "right" conditions occur, significant changes for the better can occur. No matter how much "bad conditioning" may have occurred, conditions that can turn things around still may arise. In fact, unwholesome actions can, in cases, have useful consequences. It is not a matter of sheer preponderance. ---------------------------------------------------- But then, wouldn't we accumulate infinite or at least, very huge, amount of negative qualities, so as to be stuck? Also, where do the past accumulations of theoretic knowledge, and worldly skill go for a little baby? An Adult can have lots of worldly skill, lots of knowledge, etc. An infant does not. Infant has to relearn to walk, to talk, study how to do this or that, like s/he didn't know it before and start almost from a scratch! It seems that certain accumulations can be reset. Perhaps a way out of infinite past good/bad accumulations is that the more recently something was done, the more weight it has. -------------------------------------------------- H: That may be. But recent actions arise due to earlier conditions. No actions occur full-blown without precedent conditions. --------------------------------------------------- The further away in time something was done, the less power it has. This (fading of effect through time) helps to have less conditioning power from the past and puts more weight to the present moment. Rather than relying too much on the past, one IMHO, needs to rely on the present moment. Perhaps it is the only moment there is, and what matters is what happens NOW. Maybe the present moment is direct outcome and accumulation of proximate past moment, and without a storehouse of accumulations having to exist somewhere/somehow. Strong and RIGHT effort now, being in the present can outweight past actions. If a person goes crazy and starts cutting oneself with the knife, how much was the pain due to things done in past life? Very little and indirectly. The crucial aspect was the actual cutting of oneself, and that can only happen or be stopped, in the now. We are not slaves to past conditionality. Dhamma is the way out, and the only moment to do it is now, the only moment there is. ----------------------------------------------------- H: Current kamma is not solely the result of past kamma, but it IS due to prior conditions. Nothing, including kamma, is without causal basis. ------------------------------------------------------ IMHO, With metta, Alex =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115723 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, > H:Awakening is due to occurences, to conditions. When and if the >"right" conditions occur, significant changes for the better can >occur. No matter how much "bad conditioning" may have occurred, >conditions that can turn things around still may arise. In fact, >unwholesome actions can, in cases, have useful consequences. It is >not a matter of sheer preponderance. But considering the amount of time we spent in samsara, why didn't awakening happen Aeons ago? Infinite amount of existence would produce infinite amount of conditions infinity ago. Even if we were to limit the time in Samsara to a very very very long time, it still would beg the question of "why weren't we all awakened a long time ago?" Also, not just good, but bad conditions were and still are accumulated by worldlings. So mere passage of time doesn't necessarily help to change the ratio. IMHO. With metta, Alex #115724 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations farrellkevin80 Dear Alex, Howard, All, Alex: But considering the amount of time we spent in samsara, why didn't awakening happen Aeons ago? Infinite amount of existence would produce infinite amount of conditions infinity ago. Even if we were to limit the time in Samsara to a very very very long time, it still would beg the question of "why weren't we all awakened a long time ago?" Kevin: Because wisdom goes against what we naturally accumulate and it is so rare and hard to hear. Naturally, people accumulate self-view again and again and again and again, as well as all other types of wholesome and unwholesome tendencies. Only hearing and understanding dhamma goes against this self-view, nothing else, so it is hard to accumulate. Even those with perfect morality and jhanas who do not know the Dhamma just because Brahmas. They do not go beyond self-view. The teaching is extremely rare and hard to comprehend. It is so deep that the Buddha hesistated to teach, thinking it's too deep for anyone to penetrate (until He was prompted by the brahma to look and see that there were actually many people ready at this time). This perfect Dhamma is so rare. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115725 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/18/2011 12:23:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, > H:Awakening is due to occurences, to conditions. When and if the >"right" conditions occur, significant changes for the better can >occur. No matter how much "bad conditioning" may have occurred, >conditions that can turn things around still may arise. In fact, >unwholesome actions can, in cases, have useful consequences. It is >not a matter of sheer preponderance. But considering the amount of time we spent in samsara, why didn't awakening happen Aeons ago? Infinite amount of existence would produce infinite amount of conditions infinity ago. Even if we were to limit the time in Samsara to a very very very long time, it still would beg the question of "why weren't we all awakened a long time ago?" Also, not just good, but bad conditions were and still are accumulated by worldlings. So mere passage of time doesn't necessarily help to change the ratio. IMHO. With metta, Alex ================================= The bottom line is that we just don't know the facts about kamma, and the Buddha suggested not attempting to fathom it. Nevertheless I'll add some thoughts of mine: Kamma is like a promissory note. When "paid" it is done with. So, there need not be an infinite "accumulation" ever, for while "kammic debt" is constantly incurred, "kammic payment" is also constantly made. So, again, the fact of "no beginning" to genesis of kamma does not imply an infinite "store" of kammic debt. And that being the case, preponderance just isn't the issue. What is the issue is that of exactly which conditions occur. Certain ones are critical to awakening, and these, of course, have preconditions. The matter is *enormously* complex. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115726 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:11 am Subject: Re: Momentary death. philofillet Hi Nina, thank you, I missed this post when I responded earlier. But I think it addresses a different topic. I don't have any trouble understanding that this lifetime and the one to come are separated by a momentary citta, my contention is that thinking about each moment of citta arising and falling as a momentary death is either incorrect (not sure about that) or pushing thinking into territories where liberating insight belong, and there is of possibility of taking that thinking about a deep topic for insight. This might, in the extreme case, lead people to believe they are enlightened because they are able to reason about deep topics. Or it might make them less likely to do the daily reflection on ageing, illness and death, not in the momentary sense, but in the conventional sense, tge reflection that the Buddha strongly said all peopke should do. Someone here once said the Buddha wouldn't get us to think about ageing and death in the conventional sense, it would be a downer. Very unfortunate misunderstanding there in my opinion, a loss of an opportunity for the conditioning of samvega. If you were a person who hadn't used her rare human birth in such a wise way I would hesitate to write this to you. But for people who are behavng in a foolish, harmful way, gthere is always hope that samvega will really arise and there will be an end to gross foolishness, at least in this lifetime. And that is a great start, at least. And it has to come first, I think, or our deep thinking about deep topics might allow us to go on and on doing foolish things while that there is no person doing them, only nama and rupa, wow! How liberating! So my point is that thinking about death in tge way theBuddha urges in Anguttra Nikaya is good for people still prone to gross transgressions, gross transgressions must stop. How will reflecting on each citta arising and falling away as a momentary death condition samvega, Nina? That's. goid question to end with. Thanks as always. Metta, Phil Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > I came just accross a former message of Sarah whichain old ageing and death touches on the > subject of momentary death we have been discussing: > Sarah: < S: Yes, I've been reflecting on death and giving comfort to > those who are dying or experiencing loss. As it happens, a very close > family friend died last week in England too. > > I'm thinking of 'just like now'. We all have fears about dying, loss > and so on, but usually forget that death is just another moment, just > like now. Just as there is seeing and hearing now conditioned by > attachment and ignorance in the past, so there will continue to be > seeing and hearing. Just as we live mostly in a dream world, lost in > stories of conventional realities, so will we continue to live in > such a world in future, on and on. > > Just as now, there is only the present moment, only the present > object appearing, so it will be in future. Just as now, we don't own > anything, whatever we have will be left behind, from moment to > moment, so it will be in future. Just as we forget so many details, > so many friends, so in future will everything and everyone we cling > to now be forgotten. Just realities rolling on. > > Actually, there's nothing to fear at all because death is just > another moment, like now. It's just like sleeping and waking up again > to more sense experiences and thinking about them. No self involved > at all.> > (end quote) > ------- > Nina. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #115727 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:02 pm Subject: Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >R:This leads to another question, which is "what actually is in a single moment of experience?" Sarah: > ...a citta (and cetasikas) experiencing an object. > ... ...seeing consciousness is a citta which experiences is visible object. However, the visible object has already arisen and conditioned that seeing consciousness. Seeing just sees what is visible. ... So I think you have clarified that the "moment" of experience need not take in the full development of the arising object. Citta is only concerned with the present experience, which is - in my way of paraphrasing it - as a segment of the object's life, during which time it is in the "experienceable" phase, as in your example above of visible object. That makes me think that an individual citta experiencing its single moment will always only experience one phase of the object, as it will be gone before the next phase takes place. I wonder how the "falling away" is experienced by citta? For citta to experience the object being present and then falling away, it seems that this would take at least two moments. Is it two separate cittas that experience this, with citta A experiencing presence and citta B experiencing the falling away? I know this is technical, but it is good for me to clarify the way things take place up to the point where my present understanding is troubled. Obviously there are other points that are not even on my radar, as I am not advanced enough to even be aware of them. > When it comes to understanding, as mentioned, it depends on the development of that understanding as to what is known. In the beginning it is just the understanding of a dhamma as a nama or rupa that is known. For example, there may be understanding now of the characteristic of visible object, just the dhamma which is seen now. ... Would this represent the first stage of insight, when it is understood whether the object is a nama or rupa? And would it be the second stage of insight to understand the characteristic of the object? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #115728 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing farrellkevin80 Hi Robert, I am sure Sarah can probably explain better, but let me take a stab in the meantime. Robert: I think you have clarified that the "moment" of experience need not take in the full development of the arising object. Citta is only concerned with the present experience, which is - in my way of paraphrasing it - as a segment of the object's life, during which time it is in the "experienceable" phase, as in your example above of visible object. That makes me think that an individual citta experiencing its single moment will always only experience one phase of the object, as it will be gone before the next phase takes place. I wonder how the "falling away" is experienced by citta? For citta to experience the object being present and then falling away, it seems that this would take at least two moments. Is it two separate cittas that experience this, with citta A experiencing presence and citta B experiencing the falling away? I know this is technical, but it is good for me to clarify the way things take place up to the point where my present understanding is troubled. Obviously there are other points that are not even on my radar, as I am not advanced enough to even be aware of them. Kevin: Right. Citta does not last as long as rupa, so citta only experiences rupa and falls away [before said rupa dissolves]. Afterwards consciousness that arises at the heart base (instead of the eye base in the case of visible object) arises and experiences a nimitta of the visible object, which it can gain insight of. This is what I understood from Ajahn Sujins explanation. Maybe someone can clarify if I am incorrect. Robert: Would this represent the first stage of insight, when it is understood whether the object is a nama or rupa? And would it be the second stage of insight to understand the characteristic of the object? Kevin: The first stage experiences this, as do the others. The difference is the level of "penetration and knowledge about said nama or rupa", so to speak, at deeper stages is respectively deeper and deeper and knows more than just the simple separation of nama and rupa. With great metta, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115729 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:41 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta. epsteinrob Hi Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > (This one is particularly direct on the difference between concentration that > leads to samattha jhana and concentration that leads to insight) > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > > Samadhi Sutta > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. > Which > four? There is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & > now. There is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & > vision. There is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There > is > the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, > leads to the ending of the effluents. Thanks for the quotes, Kevin. They show good explanations and examples of forms of wholesome and enlightening concentration that are not jhana, although in most cases they do not mention these alternate forms specifically as "Right Concentration," ie, the category of Right Concentration. That is not to say they are 'wrong concentration' at all, but I wonder if there is a definition of Right Concentration itself that does not make the distinction between jhana and other forms of enlightening concentration but applies equally to both? There is also no doubt, as your quotes demonstrate, that there are numbers of individuals who can reach enlightenment through being consumed by the transcendent joy of the Dhamma. In one quote it says that these individuals are those with a higher capability to understand the Dhamma when they hear it; but in another it says that only the most refined individuals can experience jhana. So it seems that in some cases it is said that dry insight is more advanced, and in others it is said that jhana is more difficult. In any case, it is good to know that there is an alternate route to enlightenment, though I think it is uncertain from these quotes the extent to which it is possible for most people to follow that path to fruition. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #115730 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Rob E, > Op 17-jun-2011, om 6:23 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > S: p.s Rather busy the next few days and next week going to > > Guangzhou in China with friends to study yoga with Mr Iyengar, > > himself! > ------ > N: I became rather curious. Perhaps you can link it with Dhamma? What > benefit is there with such a course? Health? But ruupa conditions > naama. There are only naama and ruupa. Perhaps there was a Dhamma talk? > Nina. On the psychophysical level, the practice of yoga is centering, strengthening, calming and clarifying. One can experience a deepening of calm and relaxation which comes as a physiological result of this kind of physical activity. While it does not correspond directly to Buddhist Dhamma, a number of people have felt that it is conducive to the kind of clear thinking and flexible physical condition that allows someone to contemplate the Dhamma with less confusion and distraction. For those such as myself who are interested in meditation, it fosters a positive physical condition for sitting meditation. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - #115731 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Some events are conditioned by immediate preconditions, and some only > by earlier, even long-passed, preconditions. It is mere > this/that-conditionality, with there being no literal stores of anything. Whatever occurs does > so that very instant and does not outlive that instant. > When a condition occurs, a volition for example, it is right then and > there a condition for the consequences of it. A consequence of a condition > (eventually) occurs when, but not before, all the preconditions for the > consequence have been met. Nothing literally accumulates in the sense of being > stored up. The term 'accumulations' is only metaphorical, as I understand > the matter. Without an idea of literal accumulations, it is difficult to explain in a purely Dhammic way how such specific references to past events and past influences come into play in any particular moment, and why results of past events seem to be triggered much later by a reference that ignites what seem to be dormant forces. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - #115732 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:58 pm Subject: Re: Today is Poson Poya Day! christine_fo... Hello Bhante, all, We had a wonderful celebration at Dhammagiri today - we have lots of Sri Lankan lay people. One word to the wise - Never mishear and refer to it as ''Possum Poya'' . with metta Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > > Friends: > How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? > Poya is the full-moon of Poson (June), which is specially noteworthy to the > Sri Lankan > Buddhists as the day on which Emperor Asoka > 's son, the Arahat > Mahinda > , officially > introduced Buddhism to the island in the 3rd century B.C. #115733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:23 pm Subject: Fwd: Q. [Pali] sammaa samaadhi nilovg Dear Alex and all, Alex, you asked for posts on this subject on the Pali list. This is part of a post I sent to the Pali list. > > Question: Another thing i would like to discuss is why in the > suttas the > > Buddha always said that four material jhana as sammaa samaadhi and > > also that why he did not mention immaterial jhaana ? > ----- > N: I would say, often, but not always. For example, in the Anguttara > Nikaya, IV, 21, or, IX, 36. > Anguttara Nikaya IX.36 > > Jhana Sutta > > Mental Absorption > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ati_website/canon/sutta/ > anguttara/an09-036.html > > > > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the > dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the > infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell > you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension > of neither perception nor non-perception. > > > > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on > the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it > said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first > jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there > that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & > consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an > arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, > not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having > done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is > peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the > relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; > dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' > > ------- > > N: When the Buddha spoke about jhaana the purpose was not to teach > people samatha, but to teach anattaa. Also people before the Buddha's > time knew how to develop the stages of jhaana. When someone emerged > from jhaana they could be mindful and develop understanding of the > jhaana factors and of any reality appearing at the present moment. > > The jhaanacitta of aruupajhaana is of the same type as the highest > stage of ruupa-jhaana: jhaana factors have been abandoned stage by > stage, but the factors of samaadhi and indifferent feeling, upekkhaa > (instead of somanassa) remain. > > The sutta quoted above, explains that he should be aware of 'whatever > phenomena there are'. > > --------- > > N: There is no rule that everybody should develop mundane jhaana in > order to attain enlightenment. We read in the suttas that the Buddha > knew the different faculties of different people. > > We read in the Puggala Pa~n~natti, the Fourth Book of the Abhidhamma : > > (1, 30): 'Which is the person who is twice-liberated (ubhatobhaaga- > vimutta)? It is one who, in his own person, has attained to the eight > liberations (jhaanas), and through wise penetration his taints > (aasava) have come to extinction.' > > (1, 31) 'Which is the person who is liberated by wisdom (pa~n~naa- > vimutta)? It is one who has not attained, in his own person, to the > eight liberations, but through wise penetration his taints have come > to extinction.' ~ > > Pali: Katamo ca puggalo paññ?vimutto? Idhekacco puggalo na heva kho > a??ha vimokkhe k?yena phusitv? viharati paññ?ya cassa disv? > ?sav? parikkh??? honti. Aya? vuccati puggalo paññ?vimutto. > PTS 73 > > ----- > Nina. #115734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:37 pm Subject: Dhamma Discussions in Bhutan. no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Kh S: Can anyone concentrate on breath or have breath as meditation subject? Is it different from softness or heat appearing at any part of the body? Why should one select just breath, which is more subtle than the ordinary hardness of softness that can be experienced at any place of the body, from head to toe? Breath is very subtle. We think that there is breath now but who knows it? We may not even know hardness or softness that is not breath and which is appearing through the bodysense. We read in the Tipi.taka that very wise men, arahats, could have breath as the object of understanding. People today just want to concentrate on breath, thinking that they know the truth of breath. The truth of breath is its anattaness, it is a reality which is conditioned. No one can get it at will. It is so short, and when sati does not arise it is gone without it being known. The person who does not have any understanding accumulates more and more ignorance and misunderstanding. That is not the Buddha?s teaching. One has to be very truthful to oneself and respectful to the Buddha. When someone says that he wants to meditate I would like to know what meditation is. It does not mean that one just has to be calm and meditate. What is calm? Breath is the object of understanding, it is anattaa. Breath is conditioned and one cannot ?try? to have it as object. Just like now, we experience different objects, depending on our accumulations. At the moment of seeing there cannot be hearing. Different people experience different objects and there is no rule at all. Why should one try to know a specific object? Right effort is right when it accompanies right understanding. Also sati is right when it accompanies right understanding. There is the right eightfold Path and the wrong eightfold Path. ------- Nina. #115735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Momentary death. nilovg Dear Philip, Op 18-jun-2011, om 20:11 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But for people who are behavng in a foolish, harmful way, gthere is > always hope that samvega will really arise and there will be an end > to gross foolishness, at least in this lifetime. And that is a > great start, at least. And it has to come first, I think, or our > deep thinking about deep topics might allow us to go on and on > doing foolish things while that there is no person doing them, only > nama and rupa, wow! How liberating! So my point is that thinking > about death in the way the Buddha urges in Anguttra Nikaya is good > for people still prone to gross transgressions, gross > transgressions must stop. How will reflecting on each citta arising > and falling away as a momentary death condition samvega, Nina? > That's. good question to end with. Thanks as always. ------- N: There is no rule at all in which way people want to reflect on suttas and apply them in life. There is no problem here. The Buddha would stir people by direct and simple words so that they would become ready for the deeper teachings. Also this is no problem. Everybody can speak about death, but this is not the same as the Buddha's words. He showed the way to the end of samsara, to the end of death. The way to this is understanding the present moment as anattaa. As Sarah wrote: This pertains to momentary death. Just like now. You ask, how samvega? When we learn that we have to understand the present moment we are convinced that this should not be delayed. No delay, that is true samvega. We do not have to think: now there should be samvega, so that I do not transgress. Who could force the citta to think in this or that way? More understanding of anattaness is not an excuse to transgress, as you know. It leads to more mettaa, to citta with mettaa, and this is a guarantee that there will be less transgression. Less thinking of oneself conditions mettaa, more respect for others. ------- Nina. #115736 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Momentary death. philofillet Hi Nina > More understanding of anattaness is not an excuse to transgress, as > you know. It leads to more mettaa, to citta with mettaa, and this is > a guarantee that there will be less transgression. Less thinking of > oneself conditions mettaa, more respect for others. Yes, I was thinking this today. I like the lines from Dhammapada pare ca na vijananti mayam ettha yamamase which is translated in my version of Dhammapada as "others do not realize, we here are struggling" and Buddhagosa's commentary says ""THe makers of strife, all those who are other than the wise, are known in this context as "Others". They, creating strife in the midst of the sangha do not realize: 'We cease to be, we perish; constantly and definitely we are in the process of going to the presence of Death" So for me, death is a process that begins at birth and we are all moving towards it, and unlike animals we know we are moving towards it, and that creates so much fear and hunting for compensations and escapes. I find this reflection conditions a lot of metta, why add to the burden of all the people out there. In fact I don't do metta meditation anymore, I found there is no need when one reflects in the above way. But for me, death as a process ending with death, not as this and every citta rising and falling way. Fair enough, as you say different ways the Buddha helps different people. I'm going to Canada for awhile, and will be away from the computer. Talk to you again in a few weeks. Metta, Phil #115737 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/19/2011 12:02:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I wonder how the "falling away" is experienced by citta? For citta to experience the object being present and then falling away, it seems that this would take at least two moments. Is it two separate cittas that experience this, with citta A experiencing presence and citta B experiencing the falling away? =================================== This, as I see it, is one of the difficult issues with the discrete, frame-by-frame interpretation of experience. The Buddha himself, spoke of "arising", "change while remaining", and "passing away" as 3 consecutive aspects of a dhamma, and the later commentators picked up on that, precisely, I believe, to assuage this problem. Ven T describes this material (from AN 3.47) as I quote it at the end. There is also the following: ____________________________________ AN 3:47 The Conditioned and the Unconditioned Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi There are, O monks, three conditioned marks of the conditioned. What three? Its origination is discerned, its vanishing is discerned, its change while persisting is discerned. These are the three conditioned marks of the conditioned. There are, O monks, three unconditioned marks of the Unconditioned. What three? No origination is discerned, no vanishing is discerned, no change while persisting is discerned. These are the three unconditioned marks of the Unconditioned. ____________________________________ With metta, Howard /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change while remaining is discernible. "These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ (From the Sankhata Sutta) #115738 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/19/2011 12:57:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Some events are conditioned by immediate preconditions, and some only > by earlier, even long-passed, preconditions. It is mere > this/that-conditionality, with there being no literal stores of anything. Whatever occurs does > so that very instant and does not outlive that instant. > When a condition occurs, a volition for example, it is right then and > there a condition for the consequences of it. A consequence of a condition > (eventually) occurs when, but not before, all the preconditions for the > consequence have been met. Nothing literally accumulates in the sense of being > stored up. The term 'accumulations' is only metaphorical, as I understand > the matter. Without an idea of literal accumulations, it is difficult to explain in a purely Dhammic way how such specific references to past events and past influences come into play in any particular moment, and why results of past events seem to be triggered much later by a reference that ignites what seem to be dormant forces. -------------------------------------------------- H: The "difficulty" comes about, I believe, due to our everyday, commonsense, Newtonian, obvious-but-ultimately-false push-pull-mechanics view of the world. The quantum mechanics scheme, however, restoring the notion of action-at-a distance, can serve as motivation for accepting mere this/that-conditionality without the requirements of direct "touching" or "intermediaries". (Think of the old fruitless quest for "the ether" to account for the transmission of light.) ------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. =============================== With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #115739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Momentary death. nilovg Dear Phil, Have agood journey and I hope your mother is as well as can be expected in her condition. I hope she recognizes you and I think she may be glad anyway to see you. I am sure you have lost of conditions for mettaa when with your parents. Let us know how they are. Wishing you well, Nina. Op 19-jun-2011, om 13:00 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I'm going to Canada for awhile, and will be away from the computer. > Talk to you again in a few weeks. #115740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations nilovg Dear Alex, Op 18-jun-2011, om 18:23 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > But considering the amount of time we spent in samsara, why didn't > awakening happen Aeons ago? Infinite amount of existence would > produce infinite amount of conditions infinity ago. Even if we were > to limit the time in Samsara to a very very very long time, it > still would beg the question of "why weren't we all awakened a long > time ago?" ------ N: Because of the huge amount of ignorance that has been accumulated. Listening, considering, being aware of the present moment, the only remedy, but it is not yet enough. WE can noptice this ourselves in our daily life: so few moments of awareness, and such a mass of delusion and forgetfulness. But nothing can be forced, it is clinging to self who likes a speedy enlightenment. Clinging is in the way. Let us be grateful for the amount of understanding now, and just continue developing it, not yearning for the future. ----- Nina. #115741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 19-jun-2011, om 6:46 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > One can experience a deepening of calm and relaxation which comes > as a physiological result of this kind of physical activity. While > it does not correspond directly to Buddhist Dhamma, a number of > people have felt that it is conducive to the kind of clear thinking > and flexible physical condition that allows someone to contemplate > the Dhamma with less confusion and distraction. For those such as > myself who are interested in meditation, it fosters a positive > physical condition for sitting meditation. ------ N: If this is your personal experience, I will not argue. Is there not a danger that one confuses a feeling of relaxation with true calm that is kusala? ------ Nina. #115742 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Momentary death. philofillet Thanks Nina, I'll let you know how it was, Alzheiner's is in a way kind of fascinating because you see how ways of behaving that have been accumulated over a lifetime became emphasized in extreme forms. For me there is a lesson to be aware of behaviour, it does not fall away forever, I don't believe that's true, it accumulates abd it best to be aware of that.... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Have agood journey and I hope your mother is as well as can be > expected in her condition. I hope she recognizes you and I think she > may be glad anyway to see you. I am sure you have lost of conditions > for mettaa when with your parents. Let us know how they are. > Wishing you well, > Nina. > Op 19-jun-2011, om 13:00 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > I'm going to Canada for awhile, and will be away from the computer. > > Talk to you again in a few weeks. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #115743 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:40 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > [RE:] That may be so, but the question as always is whether one has anything to do. Being a radical non-actionist you would have to err on the side of not-doing. It's very zen of you really. ;-) > >=============== > > J: You think so? Then how come I don't go down well with the zen folks either? ;-)) It's probably only because you don't use the right lingo. :-) > However, moved by your comment, let me just say that, in a nutshell: > > Dhammas arising now, > Panna previously accumulated; > But ignorance and wrong view hold sway. > Without the teachings well heard and reflected upon, > No chance for dormant panna to be roused. That is an excellent zen poem! You should definitely write more verses. In fact when you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense. ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #115744 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:43 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Well obviously we share the confidence that the Buddha knew the answers to the issues you mention. And we know that he spent 45 years trying to impart his knowledge to others (mainly to those who, because of insight developed in previous lives, where ready for enlightenment). > > And in discussing the meaning of what was said, we are able to take reference from the commentarial tradition that began during the Buddha's lifetime (with his blessing) and continued until about the time of the Abhidhammatta Sangaha and its commentaries. I probably need a better idea of who the commentators were, and how the tradition started with the Buddha's blessing in his lifetime. That sounds like an important story that I am not too familiar with. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - #115745 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > I am sure Sarah can probably explain better, but let me take a stab in the > meantime. > Kevin: Right. Citta does not last as long as rupa, so citta only experiences > rupa and falls away [before said rupa dissolves]. Afterwards consciousness that > arises at the heart base (instead of the eye base in the case of visible object) > arises and experiences a nimitta of the visible object, which it can gain > insight of. This is what I understood from Ajahn Sujins explanation. Maybe > someone can clarify if I am incorrect. > > Robert: Would this represent the first stage of insight, when it is understood > whether the object is a nama or rupa? And would it be the second stage of > insight to understand the characteristic of the object? > > Kevin: The first stage experiences this, as do the others. The difference is > the level of "penetration and knowledge about said nama or rupa", so to speak, > at deeper stages is respectively deeper and deeper and knows more than just the > simple separation of nama and rupa. Thanks for the explanation. Your way of describing this is quite clear. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - #115746 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 6/19/2011 12:02:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > > I wonder how the "falling away" is experienced by citta? For citta to > experience the object being present and then falling away, it seems that this > would take at least two moments. Is it two separate cittas that > experience this, with citta A experiencing presence and citta B experiencing the > falling away? > =================================== > This, as I see it, is one of the difficult issues with the discrete, > frame-by-frame interpretation of experience. > The Buddha himself, spoke of "arising", "change while remaining", and > "passing away" as 3 consecutive aspects of a dhamma, and the later > commentators picked up on that, precisely, I believe, to assuage this problem. I really appreciate seeing the Buddha's own version of describing this situation with arising and falling-away of dhammas. At least we can take that as a baseline to see that indeed the Buddha acknowledged those phases before trying to see exactly what their nature is - whether individuated moments or a general movement of existence for each arising existent object. > Ven T describes this material (from AN 3.47) as I quote it at the end. > There is also the following: > ____________________________________ > > AN 3:47 The Conditioned and the Unconditioned > Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi > > There are, O monks, three conditioned marks of the conditioned. What > three? Its origination is discerned, its vanishing is discerned, its change > while persisting is discerned. These are the three conditioned marks of the > conditioned. > There are, O monks, three unconditioned marks of the Unconditioned. What > three? No origination is discerned, no vanishing is discerned, no change > while persisting is discerned. These are the three unconditioned marks of the > Unconditioned. > ____________________________________ > > With metta, > Howard > > > /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is > conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change > while remaining is discernible. > "These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ > (From the Sankhata Sutta) The Talmudic aspect of my nature wants to make distinctions between these two translations, as I gather those differences had some meaning to you as well. To say that there are "three conditioned marks" as opposed to saying that there are "three conditioned characteristics" means pretty much the same thing, but the way in which the sentence is constructed makes the latter version sound like they are three characteristics among others, while the first version makes it seem that they are the most important singular characteristics of the dhamma's conditioned nature. I'm sure I am seeing more in that then is there, it is just a difference of tone, but I find it intriguing. In any case, it is clearly said that there are the characteristics of the dhamma's conditioned nature, and that this is how conditioned and unconditioned dhammas can clearly be identified. Nibbana as the only unconditioned dhamma is clearly identified by the fact that it neither arises nor falls away. This is good to understand, as it is a very clear and definite marker between the conditioned and the unconditioned. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #115747 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Without an idea of literal accumulations, it is difficult to explain in a > purely Dhammic way how such specific references to past events and past > influences come into play in any particular moment, and why results of past > events seem to be triggered much later by a reference that ignites what seem > to be dormant forces. > -------------------------------------------------- > H: > The "difficulty" comes about, I believe, due to our everyday, > commonsense, Newtonian, obvious-but-ultimately-false push-pull-mechanics view of > the world. The quantum mechanics scheme, however, restoring the notion of > action-at-a distance, can serve as motivation for accepting mere > this/that-conditionality without the requirements of direct "touching" or > "intermediaries". (Think of the old fruitless quest for "the ether" to account for the > transmission of light.) This is fun - Yet, Howard, light does have a discernible mechanism for being transmitted. I don't quite understand either the quantum view of light, nor the "packet" view, but I do know that both are correct from a certain standpoint and are considered "working complements" of each other, as they both account for certain aspects of the behavior of light. So what is the equivalent in terms of conditionality and accumulation? First of all, I'd like to know what the Buddha said - if anything - about the nature of accumulations. Did he speak of accumulations, and how kamma worked over large periods of time? What did he say in general about the way in which present-life kamma influences the conditions of rebirth and other later vipakas? It seems from what I recall that he had a description that involved present kammas being stored and remaining dormant until the right conditions brought them out. This is definitely, I think, the view of the Abhidhamma and commentaries, but I think that the Buddha spoke this way as well. So let's say that this is not to be taken literally, as you suggest, and that there is a more direct mechanism for conditions bearing fruit at a later time than the time that they arise. How does the condition that does not currently bear fruit remain dormant or inactivated until such time as the requisite conditions come together to cause the combined result? If you and I are waiting to play cards and we need four people, we can't yet play. The third person comes in and we still can't play. Finally the fourth person shows up and we have now reached the requisite conditions for the card game to take place. As soon as the fourth person sits down, we have the conditions accumulated for the card game and we can say "let's play cards" and start playing. [We are not gambling of course, as the Buddha would not have liked that.] But in this case we have clear continued presence of the conditions and they are clearly accumulating. Each person as he arrives stays and adds to the ones already there. We can see him continuing to exist beyond the passing of individual moments and he stays until the conditions are met. If you are saying that the above analogy is not the case with conditions that do not really accumulate until the set of conditions come together to cause the effect in question, how do they continue to exert potential influence or add to the conditionality being met when they are no longer there? The only linear model is one in which the condition arises and leaves a mark that influences the next arising and so on until they have thoroughly shaped the conditionality to have effect X, or else there must be a literal accumulation of the factors in which they stay within the arising dhamma and are passed on in some dormant form. The second is objectionable in the sense that the dhamma arises and then completely falls away, so there cannot be any literal storing of factors. The former, that there is a shaping that is carried on in subsequent dhammas and represents a condition being passed on, but the shaping has not reached full fruition until more shapings take place and it finally arises in its fully shaped form, is one in which conditions take turns influencing arising dhammas until they have had a cumulative effect in sequence. This is not quite satisfying either, as many conditions arise concurrently; however those could coordinate with conditions that arise sequentially, and they could all take their turn, in tandem or individually, "shaping" the dhamma which is then again "shaped" by the next arising sets of conditions, etc. If there is an alternative quantum view to the above, can you describe a probably scenario for me? I would like to consider it. It's an intriguing topic in any case! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #115748 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 6/19/2011 11:40:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > [RE:] That may be so, but the question as always is whether one has anything to do. Being a radical non-actionist you would have to err on the side of not-doing. It's very zen of you really. ;-) > >=============== > > J: You think so? Then how come I don't go down well with the zen folks either? ;-)) It's probably only because you don't use the right lingo. :-) > However, moved by your comment, let me just say that, in a nutshell: > > Dhammas arising now, > Panna previously accumulated; > But ignorance and wrong view hold sway. > Without the teachings well heard and reflected upon, > No chance for dormant panna to be roused. That is an excellent zen poem! You should definitely write more verses. In fact when you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense. ;-) Best, Robert E. ==================================== Just butting in with an observation: I've long noted a similarity between certain aspects Khun Sujin's Dhamma teachings and the non-action, "no mind" aspects of Ch'an/Zen teachings. (And I've thought "If only KS were to go a few steps further! ;-)) With metta, Howard Look! Look! /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, one would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #115749 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 19-jun-2011, om 6:46 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > One can experience a deepening of calm and relaxation which comes > > as a physiological result of this kind of physical activity. While > > it does not correspond directly to Buddhist Dhamma, a number of > > people have felt that it is conducive to the kind of clear thinking > > and flexible physical condition that allows someone to contemplate > > the Dhamma with less confusion and distraction. For those such as > > myself who are interested in meditation, it fosters a positive > > physical condition for sitting meditation. > ------ > N: If this is your personal experience, I will not argue. Is there > not a danger that one confuses a feeling of relaxation with true calm > that is kusala? I have personally always had a different view from this, and I understand that the dsg understanding is to shun any benefit of physical or active spiritual culture, as it is seen as a product of self-concept, but I really don't agree with this. I also have a great difficulty with the idea that kusala is a kind of quality or quantity that exists by itself and is accumulated apart from wholesome things, sentiments and activities. To me, just as consciousness is not a 'stand-alone' substance that is hanging around in the air, kusala is also not a kind of manna or substance in its own right which can be abstracted from life and stored up by itself. I also don't believe that one can so easily mistake akusala for kusala and that the solution to this is to avoid anything that appears to be good, wholesome or healthy, because one may be mistaken. That is not the way that I choose to live. I believe that spiritual activities, physical disciplines and other things that can be seen to have a positive impact are good to do, have positive effects and add to the wholesomeness of life, not take away from it or create a terrible world of mistaken akusala, disguised as kusala. That is not how I think it works. I think these things are good. If one does yoga or t'ai chi, but has a Buddhist understanding, the Buddhist understanding is not taken away by these activities, but the kusala qualities of one's life are merely added to and supported with positive things of various kinds. If one has chocolate and enjoys it this is not inherently akusala and does not make one less of a Buddhist. Other activities can be wholesome and likewise be positive. Perhaps this is not a popular view, but I am not a sectarian person and my approach to life is not exclusive of various activities. So where do I think the danger of akusala comes in, since there clearly are clingings, there clearly are dangers of attachment and involvement in unwholesome things, there clearly are things to be careful of and to guard against that are not good for one's person, one's development, or for the path? My feeling is that unwholesome qualities are unwholesome qualities, and that self-concept is self-concept, so when those things do creep into any activity, they spoil the broth just as throwing a handful of pepper into a soup would make it inedible. So if one is doing yoga with an underlying idea of aggrandizing the self and making it more perfect, then that is akusala. If one is doing t'ai chi with the idea that it will create a more perfect spiritual self, then that is feeding self-concept and is unwholesome. But likewise, if one is reading commentary and on a subtle level is thinking "This will make me more enlightened and I will develop a stronger spiritual self" that is equally unwholesome, and so it is not a matter of what the discipline is or whether it feels good or is healthy that makes it potentially akusala; it is rather what is going on in the mind and the volition that may make any activity, including a Buddhist one, akusala. I think that if done with some understanding of living a generally good life and doing beneficial activities for the body and mind, and that one is not substituting such things for Dhamma, that doing yoga or other positive activities can be a source of wholesomeness and positive balance in the body and the mind, and do not need to be avoided. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #115750 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/19/2011 12:29:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Without an idea of literal accumulations, it is difficult to explain in a > purely Dhammic way how such specific references to past events and past > influences come into play in any particular moment, and why results of past > events seem to be triggered much later by a reference that ignites what seem > to be dormant forces. > -------------------------------------------------- > H: > The "difficulty" comes about, I believe, due to our everyday, > commonsense, Newtonian, obvious-but-ultimately-false push-pull-mechanics view of > the world. The quantum mechanics scheme, however, restoring the notion of > action-at-a distance, can serve as motivation for accepting mere > this/that-conditionality without the requirements of direct "touching" or > "intermediaries". (Think of the old fruitless quest for "the ether" to account for the > transmission of light.) This is fun - Yet, Howard, light does have a discernible mechanism for being transmitted. I don't quite understand either the quantum view of light, nor the "packet" view, but I do know that both are correct from a certain standpoint and are considered "working complements" of each other, as they both account for certain aspects of the behavior of light. ------------------------------------------ H: It seems that electromagnetic radiation exhibits both wave and particle behavior, and there are corresponding wave mechanics and quantum mechanics to describe these. There are, of course, Maxwell's field theory and quantum field theory, but these modern field theories seem to deal with fields of influence and possibilities and steer clear of a substantial-intermediary view. (But I know almost nothing of physics - so, give little to no weight to what I say on that. ------------------------------------------ So what is the equivalent in terms of conditionality and accumulation? First of all, I'd like to know what the Buddha said - if anything - about the nature of accumulations. Did he speak of accumulations, and how kamma worked over large periods of time? What did he say in general about the way in which present-life kamma influences the conditions of rebirth and other later vipakas? It seems from what I recall that he had a description that involved present kammas being stored and remaining dormant until the right conditions brought them out. This is definitely, I think, the view of the Abhidhamma and commentaries, but I think that the Buddha spoke this way as well. -------------------------------------------------- H: The Buddha did speak of 'anusaya', which means "tendency" or "inclination" or "proclivity," but I don't know of suttas in which the Buddha discussed their *precise nature*. ---------------------------------------------- So let's say that this is not to be taken literally, as you suggest, and that there is a more direct mechanism for conditions bearing fruit at a later time than the time that they arise. -------------------------------------------- H: Mmm, I dunno! You speak of "mechanism" here, but I'm not at all sure anything should be looked for more than "When this arises, that arises. When this is, that is." Sometime look at what David Kalupahana has to say about conditionality. (It's in either the 2nd or 3rd text listed at _http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=da\ vid+kalup ahana_ (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=davi\ d+kalupahana) . (I forget which text and don't have the time right now for a search. You might be able to do an interlibrary loan of these if you don't want to buy them.) -------------------------------------- How does the condition that does not currently bear fruit remain dormant or inactivated until such time as the requisite conditions come together to cause the combined result? ----------------------------------------------- H: It doesn't. There's no transmission or storage, just mere conditionality: Action at a temporal distance. ---------------------------------------- If you and I are waiting to play cards and we need four people, we can't yet play. The third person comes in and we still can't play. Finally the fourth person shows up and we have now reached the requisite conditions for the card game to take place. As soon as the fourth person sits down, we have the conditions accumulated for the card game and we can say "let's play cards" and start playing. [We are not gambling of course, as the Buddha would not have liked that.] But in this case we have clear continued presence of the conditions and they are clearly accumulating. Each person as he arrives stays and adds to t he ones already there. We can see him continuing to exist beyond the passing of individual moments and he stays until the conditions are met. ------------------------------------------ H: Physical contiguity is required in this particular example. It is not required at the quantum level (in that predictive theory), and it is not required as regards conditionality (including kamma) at the microscopic level. ------------------------------------------ If you are saying that the above analogy is not the case with conditions that do not really accumulate until the set of conditions come together to cause the effect in question, how do they continue to exert potential influence or add to the conditionality being met when they are no longer there? -------------------------------------------- H: You want proximity, but that is not the universe's problem! ;-)) ------------------------------------------- The only linear model is one in which the condition arises and leaves a mark that influences the next arising and so on until they have thoroughly shaped the conditionality to have effect X, or else there must be a literal accumulation of the factors in which they stay within the arising dhamma and are passed on in some dormant form. The second is objectionable in the sense that the dhamma arises and then completely falls away, so there cannot be any literal storing of factors. The former, that there is a shaping that is carried on in subsequent dhammas and represents a condition being passed on, but the shaping has not reached full fruition until more shapings take place and it fi nally arises in its fully shaped form, is one in which conditions take turns influencing arising dhammas until they have had a cumulative effect in sequence. This is not quite satisfying either, as many conditions arise concurrently; however those could coordinate with conditions that arise sequentially, and they could all take their turn, in tandem or individually, "shaping" the dhamma which is then again "shaped" by the next arising sets of conditions, etc. If there is an alternative quantum view to the above, can you describe a probably scenario for me? I would like to consider it. It's an intriguing topic in any case! --------------------------------------------- H: I am ignorant of the details of quantum theory and its mathematics. I'm a total layperson as regards that and only mention it as a motivation. But I do believe that my perspective on 'idappaccayata' accords with the Buddha's; namely mere "this-that conditionality". ---------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ============================== With metta, Howard #115751 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:02 am Subject: What is Progress? bhikkhu5 Friends: Real Progress is gaining Real Freedom! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, growing in five areas of progress, the Noble Disciple attains a Noble growth, and acquires the essence, acquires the best, one possibly can in this bodily existence! What are these 5 areas: 1: One grows in Faith , 2: One grows in Morality , 3: One grows in Learning , 4: One grows in Generosity , 5: One grows in Understanding . Developing in these five areas of progress, a noble disciple grows with a Noble Progress, and acquires the very core essence, acquires the optimal advantage, of this bodily existence. When one grows here in Faith and Morality, in Wisdom, Liberality, and Learning, the virtuous lay disciple acquires right here the very quintessence of all what is advantageous! <...>  Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya. Book IV [250] section 37:34 On growth ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <...> #115752 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Just butting in with an observation: I've long noted a similarity > between certain aspects Khun Sujin's Dhamma teachings and the non-action, "no > mind" aspects of Ch'an/Zen teachings. (And I've thought "If only KS were to > go a few steps further! ;-)) :-) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #115753 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing philofillet Hi Robert, Nina and all Thanks for this, Robert. I still don't know if the meditation I do id in line with thr Buddha's teaching or a kind of yoga, but I don't care. Any risk that it adds to a deepening of atta view (and considering how it provides such a good lesson in the uncontrollability of mind states it seems to me to help see through atta view) is minimal compared to the benefits it brings. The biggest one is that the calm states it usually (but can't be controlled or guaranteed) leads seem to go on through the day and there is a natural and unforced return to them during the day in situations where harmful behaviour beckons, thereby making the behaviour far less likely. It's beautiful. Nina, you have said on several occasions that you dob't understand why people want to have calm, or what is so great about khamma. To me that is akin to saying why do peopkw want to avoid beaviour tgar harms themselves and others, or what is so great about not harming oneself or others. Of course there are deeper and better ways that may on occasion arise for us to prevent harming, and of course when liberating panna really develops tge harming is done with. But for now I am so grateful to have this meditation because of the way it dramatically ( but not perfectly, no self to control mind states) reduces the likelihood of harmful behaviour... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Nina. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Rob E, > > Op 19-jun-2011, om 6:46 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > > One can experience a deepening of calm and relaxation which comes > > > as a physiological result of this kind of physical activity. While > > > it does not correspond directly to Buddhist Dhamma, a number of > > > people have felt that it is conducive to the kind of clear thinking > > > and flexible physical condition that allows someone to contemplate > > > the Dhamma with less confusion and distraction. For those such as > > > myself who are interested in meditation, it fosters a positive > > > physical condition for sitting meditation. > > ------ > > N: If this is your personal experience, I will not argue. Is there > > not a danger that one confuses a feeling of relaxation with true calm > > that is kusala? > > I have personally always had a different view from this, and I understand that the dsg understanding is to shun any benefit of physical or active spiritual culture, as it is seen as a product of self-concept, but I really don't agree with this. I also have a great difficulty with the idea that kusala is a kind of quality or quantity that exists by itself and is accumulated apart from wholesome things, sentiments and activities. To me, just as consciousness is not a 'stand-alone' substance that is hanging around in the air, kusala is also not a kind of manna or substance in its own right which can be abstracted from life and stored up by itself. I also don't believe that one can so easily mistake akusala for kusala and that the solution to this is to avoid anything that appears to be good, wholesome or healthy, because one may be mistaken. That is not the way that I choose to live. I believe that spiritual activities, physical disciplines and other things that can be seen to have a positive impact are good to do, have positive effects and add to the wholesomeness of life, not take away from it or create a terrible world of mistaken akusala, disguised as kusala. That is not how I think it works. I think these things are good. If one does yoga or t'ai chi, but has a Buddhist understanding, the Buddhist understanding is not taken away by these activities, but the kusala qualities of one's life are merely added to and supported with positive things of various kinds. If one has chocolate and enjoys it this is not inherently akusala and does not make one less of a Buddhist. Other activities can be wholesome and likewise be positive. Perhaps this is not a popular view, but I am not a sectarian person and my approach to life is not exclusive of various activities. > > So where do I think the danger of akusala comes in, since there clearly are clingings, there clearly are dangers of attachment and involvement in unwholesome things, there clearly are things to be careful of and to guard against that are not good for one's person, one's development, or for the path? My feeling is that unwholesome qualities are unwholesome qualities, and that self-concept is self-concept, so when those things do creep into any activity, they spoil the broth just as throwing a handful of pepper into a soup would make it inedible. So if one is doing yoga with an underlying idea of aggrandizing the self and making it more perfect, then that is akusala. If one is doing t'ai chi with the idea that it will create a more perfect spiritual self, then that is feeding self-concept and is unwholesome. But likewise, if one is reading commentary and on a subtle level is thinking "This will make me more enlightened and I will develop a stronger spiritual self" that is equally unwholesome, and so it is not a matter of what the discipline is or whether it feels good or is healthy that makes it potentially akusala; it is rather what is going on in the mind and the volition that may make any activity, including a Buddhist one, akusala. > > I think that if done with some understanding of living a generally good life and doing beneficial activities for the body and mind, and that one is not substituting such things for Dhamma, that doing yoga or other positive activities can be a source of wholesomeness and positive balance in the body and the mind, and do not need to be avoided. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = = = > #115754 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing philofillet Hi again, I see I wrote "khamma" at one point when I intended to write "calm." p --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Robert, Nina and all > > Thanks for this, Robert. I still don't know if the meditation I do id in line with thr Buddha's teaching or a kind of yoga, but I don't care. Any risk that it adds to a deepening of atta view (and considering how it provides such a good lesson in the uncontrollability of mind states it seems to me to help see through atta view) is minimal compared to the benefits it brings. The biggest one is that the calm states it usually (but can't be controlled or guaranteed) leads seem to go on through the day and there is a natural and unforced return to them during the day in situations where harmful behaviour beckons, thereby making the behaviour far less likely. It's beautiful. Nina, you have said on several occasions that you dob't understand why people want to have calm, or what is so great about khamma. To me that is akin to saying why do peopkw want to avoid beaviour tgar harms themselves and others, or what is so great about not harming oneself or others. Of course there are deeper and better ways that may on occasion arise for us to prevent harming, and of course when liberating panna really develops tge harming is done with. But for now I am so grateful to have this meditation because of the way it dramatically ( but not perfectly, no self to control mind states) reduces the likelihood of harmful behaviour... > > > > Metta, > Phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Nina. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rob E, > > > Op 19-jun-2011, om 6:46 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > > > > One can experience a deepening of calm and relaxation which comes > > > > as a physiological result of this kind of physical activity. While > > > > it does not correspond directly to Buddhist Dhamma, a number of > > > > people have felt that it is conducive to the kind of clear thinking > > > > and flexible physical condition that allows someone to contemplate > > > > the Dhamma with less confusion and distraction. For those such as > > > > myself who are interested in meditation, it fosters a positive > > > > physical condition for sitting meditation. > > > ------ > > > N: If this is your personal experience, I will not argue. Is there > > > not a danger that one confuses a feeling of relaxation with true calm > > > that is kusala? > > > > I have personally always had a different view from this, and I understand that the dsg understanding is to shun any benefit of physical or active spiritual culture, as it is seen as a product of self-concept, but I really don't agree with this. I also have a great difficulty with the idea that kusala is a kind of quality or quantity that exists by itself and is accumulated apart from wholesome things, sentiments and activities. To me, just as consciousness is not a 'stand-alone' substance that is hanging around in the air, kusala is also not a kind of manna or substance in its own right which can be abstracted from life and stored up by itself. I also don't believe that one can so easily mistake akusala for kusala and that the solution to this is to avoid anything that appears to be good, wholesome or healthy, because one may be mistaken. That is not the way that I choose to live. I believe that spiritual activities, physical disciplines and other things that can be seen to have a positive impact are good to do, have positive effects and add to the wholesomeness of life, not take away from it or create a terrible world of mistaken akusala, disguised as kusala. That is not how I think it works. I think these things are good. If one does yoga or t'ai chi, but has a Buddhist understanding, the Buddhist understanding is not taken away by these activities, but the kusala qualities of one's life are merely added to and supported with positive things of various kinds. If one has chocolate and enjoys it this is not inherently akusala and does not make one less of a Buddhist. Other activities can be wholesome and likewise be positive. Perhaps this is not a popular view, but I am not a sectarian person and my approach to life is not exclusive of various activities. > > > > So where do I think the danger of akusala comes in, since there clearly are clingings, there clearly are dangers of attachment and involvement in unwholesome things, there clearly are things to be careful of and to guard against that are not good for one's person, one's development, or for the path? My feeling is that unwholesome qualities are unwholesome qualities, and that self-concept is self-concept, so when those things do creep into any activity, they spoil the broth just as throwing a handful of pepper into a soup would make it inedible. So if one is doing yoga with an underlying idea of aggrandizing the self and making it more perfect, then that is akusala. If one is doing t'ai chi with the idea that it will create a more perfect spiritual self, then that is feeding self-concept and is unwholesome. But likewise, if one is reading commentary and on a subtle level is thinking "This will make me more enlightened and I will develop a stronger spiritual self" that is equally unwholesome, and so it is not a matter of what the discipline is or whether it feels good or is healthy that makes it potentially akusala; it is rather what is going on in the mind and the volition that may make any activity, including a Buddhist one, akusala. > > > > I think that if done with some understanding of living a generally good life and doing beneficial activities for the body and mind, and that one is not substituting such things for Dhamma, that doing yoga or other positive activities can be a source of wholesomeness and positive balance in the body and the mind, and do not need to be avoided. > > > > Best, > > Robert E. > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = > > > #115755 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing truth_aerator Hello Phil, Jon, Sarah, all, About meditation & atta-view: Arahants meditate. This doesn't mean that meditation requires self view which Arahants have none of. You can have atta view with everything that you do. It doesn't mean that one should stop doing something, only that one should not add atta view. One can sweep the floor with atta view, one can put on clothes with atta view, one can meditate with atta view, and one can study Abhidhamma 1001 with atta view. It is atta view that is the problem, never wholesome activity itself. Furthermore, when one regularly does some wholesome activity, eventually it can become automatic, spontaneous. So deliberate non-spontaneous action can in time become spontaneous and without effort. So training is useful in this way. Waiting for shining knight to arrive and rescue one, or for a perfect moment, will not occur. When one does meditation, if one doesn't think, one has no thoughts of wrong views at that time. So how can this increase self-views? By considering meditation to be "mine"? But one can consider even studying Abhidhamma/whatever to be "mine". One can just as well consider studying as "My knowledge, I understand," etc etc. As for the importance of studying. I am all for reading and being acquainted with ABC's of Dhamma. But books at best only point the way. Ultimately one has to study the non-discursively the present moment, which proper meditation is about. Words are at best one level removed from reality and at worst, completely unrelated. One cannot totally accurately describe something through words. Description of taste and actually tasting it are quite different. The description of, lets say, characteristic of Lust, is one thing. To experience lust oneself rather than reading about it is quite different. No book can ever describe it accurately what you personally can feel on a specific occasion in specific circumstances. So ultimately study needs to be of the experience (namarupa) that is happening now. So "study" is a must. If hindrances are really strong, then I guess there is a lot of material to "study". IMHO, With metta, Alex #115756 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > If there is an alternative quantum view to the above, can you describe a > probably scenario for me? I would like to consider it. It's an intriguing > topic in any case! > --------------------------------------------- > H: > I am ignorant of the details of quantum theory and its mathematics. > I'm a total layperson as regards that and only mention it as a motivation. > But I do believe that my perspective on 'idappaccayata' accords with the > Buddha's; namely mere "this-that conditionality". > ---------------------------------------------- I can't really see how "this-that" association really counts as conditionality. Certainly conditionality means that there is either a unidirectional or codependent causal relation between two things, not just that they are observed to arise at the same time. I understand that from the Buddha's way of teaching via "this-that" association that he is more concerned with the observation of what accompanies phenomena and deduces from this that they are indeed conditional. However, I wonder if that is where we are supposed to stop and not inquire into how conditions create various phenomena, as is laid out in much more detail in the Abdhidhamma. What do you think is the meaning of Buddha stopping at a "this-that" description of conditionality, if indeed he did. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #115757 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Robert, Nina and all > > Thanks for this, Robert. I still don't know if the meditation I do id in line with thr Buddha's teaching or a kind of yoga, but I don't care. Any risk that it adds to a deepening of atta view (and considering how it provides such a good lesson in the uncontrollability of mind states it seems to me to help see through atta view) is minimal compared to the benefits it brings. The biggest one is that the calm states it usually (but can't be controlled or guaranteed) leads seem to go on through the day and there is a natural and unforced return to them during the day in situations where harmful behaviour beckons, thereby making the behaviour far less likely. It's beautiful. Nina, you have said on several occasions that you dob't understand why people want to have calm, or what is so great about khamma. To me that is akin to saying why do peopkw want to avoid beaviour tgar harms themselves and others, or what is so great about not harming oneself or others. Of course there are deeper and better ways that may on occasion arise for us to prevent harming, and of course when liberating panna really develops tge harming is done with. But for now I am so grateful to have this meditation because of the way it dramatically ( but not perfectly, no self to control mind states) reduces the likelihood of harmful behaviour... Yes, I also agree, in addition to the cumulative benefits of positive disciplines, that your pragmatic view of meditation is a good one. It's not a substitute for Dhamma, but you can see the positive effect that it actually has in your everyday life. Perhaps in some roundabout way it could turn out that being happier and calmer and doing more good and less evil could somehow turn out to be "unwholesome," but personally I really doubt it, and can't really see how a general development of positive healthy feelings and behavior can secretly be a bad thing, to be avoided because of some kind of weird hidden danger. If one graduates from feeling lust all the time and sometimes acting on it to feeling more content and focused on positive things, then where is the akusala? I would like someone to show me where in such a scenario the akusala is supposed to be hiding? Does such a positive development further solidify the sense of self-view and make us feel "better about ourselves," and is this akusala? If so, then one is left with the clearly perverse view that one must avoid all positive kusala activities, thoughts and feelings, because they may make us feel better, this may lead to enhanced self-view and this may breed greater akusala. If so, then what is the solution? Should we keep doing bad things and entertaining akusala thoughts and feelings so that we will feel bad about ourselves and have weaker self-view? That does not make much sense, and would wind up with the proposition that more kusala - more akusala, and more akusala = more kusala. I think it's safe to say that doing more wholesome things and engaging activities that lead to greater wholesomeness *is kusala* and that this is an aspect of kusala that can be demonstrated in everyday life. All the other weird mental calistenics that warn us away from positive activities -- in fact almost everything that life has to offer other than reading Abhidhamma commentaries, the only safe bet! -- seem to be pretty akusala to me, telling us that when we feel better it is bad, when we are calm we are really not calm, when we are happy we are really going off the path, and when we do good things and positive activities we are breeding hidden unwholesomeness. I really reject that kind of an inverted view of the Dhamma and of life. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #115758 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/19/2011 8:42:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > If there is an alternative quantum view to the above, can you describe a > probably scenario for me? I would like to consider it. It's an intriguing > topic in any case! > --------------------------------------------- > H: > I am ignorant of the details of quantum theory and its mathematics. > I'm a total layperson as regards that and only mention it as a motivation. > But I do believe that my perspective on 'idappaccayata' accords with the > Buddha's; namely mere "this-that conditionality". > ---------------------------------------------- I can't really see how "this-that" association really counts as conditionality. Certainly conditionality means that there is either a unidirectional or codependent causal relation between two things, not just that they are observed to arise at the same time. ---------------------------------------------- H: According to the Buddha, all this/that-conditionality requires is objectivity, necessity, invariability, and dependence. No "causal force" or hidden, substantial connection is required. --------------------------------------------- I understand that from the Buddha's way of teaching via "this-that" association that he is more concerned with the observation of what accompanies phenomena and deduces from this that they are indeed conditional. However, I wonder if that is where we are supposed to stop and not inquire into how conditions create various phenomena, as is laid out in much more detail in the Abdhidhamma. What do you think is the meaning of Buddha stopping at a "this-that" description of conditionality, if indeed he did. --------------------------------------------- H: That it is "just that" - suchness, tathata. It, as the case with all aspects of reality, is insubstantial. ------------------------------------------ Best, Robert E. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115759 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing kenhowardau Hi Alex (Phil and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Phil, Jon, Sarah, all, > > About meditation & atta-view: Arahants meditate. This doesn't mean that meditation requires self view which Arahants have none of. > ------------------------ KH: What is meditation? Is it part of normal daily life, or is it something special? Arahants wouldn't need to do something special (outside their normal daily lives) would they? They have already attained the highest goal. ------------------ > A: You can have atta view with everything that you do. ------------------ KH: So why do something special - if it is just as likely to be with atta view? ------------------------ > A: It doesn't mean that one should stop doing something, only that one should not add atta view. One can sweep the floor with atta view, one can put on clothes with atta view, one can meditate with atta view, and one can study Abhidhamma 1001 with atta view. ------------------------ KH: We still need to know what this "meditation" is. Assuming it is something outside normal daily life, why is it done? Did the Buddha teach it? Or is it something that the Buddha *did not teach* but that religious (superstitious) people insist he *should have taught*? -------------------------------------- > A: It is atta view that is the problem, never wholesome activity itself. -------------------------------------- KH: Belief in an ultimately wholesome conventional activity (belief in the efficacy of religious rite and ritual) is atta belief. ---------------------- > A: Furthermore, when one regularly does some wholesome activity, eventually it can become automatic, spontaneous. So deliberate non-spontaneous action can in time become spontaneous and without effort. So training is useful in this way. ---------------------- KH: Yes, regular *non-spontaneous* belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual will eventually lead to regular *spontaneous* belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual. ------------------------------ > A: Waiting for shining knight to arrive and rescue one, or for a perfect moment, will not occur. ------------------------------ KH: Belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual inevitably entails disbelief in the true Dhamma. It will cause us to ridicule the true Dhamma. -------------------- > A: When one does meditation, if one doesn't think, one has no thoughts of wrong views at that time. -------------------- KH: Wrong view and "thoughts of wrong view" are two different things. And apart from that, a Dhamma student should know that thinking accompanies every citta process - including when there is no thinking-about-thinking. ------------------------- > A: So how can this increase self-views? By considering meditation to be "mine"? ------------------------- KH: Yes, or by thinking that the Buddha taught special activities. ------------------------------ > A: But one can consider even studying Abhidhamma/whatever to be "mine". One can just as well consider studying as "My knowledge, I understand," etc etc. ------------------------------- KH: Yes, any special activities (activities outside normal daily life) that are seen as Buddhist activities will inevitably be seen as either "mine" (with lobha) or as "what I do" (with mana) or as "an ultimately efficacious concept" (with wrong view). ------------------------------------- > A: As for the importance of studying. I am all for reading and being acquainted with ABC's of Dhamma. But books at best only point the way. Ultimately one has to study the non-discursively the present moment, which proper meditation is about. ------------------------------------ KH: That would be the religious (rite and ritual) interpretation of direct right understanding. It is not found in the Dhamma. The right practice that *is* found in the Dhamma is a conditioned citta, and bears no resemblance to conventional meditation. -------------------- > A: Words are at best one level removed from reality and at worst, completely unrelated. One cannot totally accurately describe something through words. Description of taste and actually tasting it are quite different. The description of, lets say, characteristic of Lust, is one thing. To experience lust oneself rather than reading about it is quite different. No book can ever describe it accurately what you personally can feel on a specific occasion in specific circumstances. So ultimately study needs to be of the experience (namarupa) that is happening now. So "study" is a must. If hindrances are really strong, then I guess there is a lot of material to "study". ------------------- KH: Dhamma-study is not a conventional practice. It is not something to be done in order to gain something. It is a conditioned citta, beyond anyone's control. Ken H #115760 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:15 am Subject: What is Sexual Abuse? bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Buddhist 3rd Precept? The 3rd Precept: One accepts the training rule of avoiding All Sexual Abuse. One should cause No Pain to others or oneself in one's search for pleasure! Avoiding sexual abuse is thus an essential core component of harmlessness ! Specifically: One should not mate sexually with another's partner. One should not mate sexually with anyone engaged or married to another. One should not mate sexually with minors < 16-18 years of age. One should not mate sexually with those imprisoned, forced or under the law. One should not mate sexually with those protected by family or teachers. k?mesu-micch?c?ra: lit. 'wrong or evil conduct with regard to sensual things'; Unlawful sexual contact refers to adultery, and to intercourse with minors or other persons under guardianship. The abstaining from this unlawful act is one of the 5 moral training rules (sikkh?pada) binding upon all Buddhists. Any sexual act transgressing this rule will inevitably cause suffering later... The monk, however, has to observe perfect chastity by living fully celibate even without any masturbation. In many Suttas (e.g. A.X., 176) we find the following explanation: He avoids unlawful sexual intercourse, abstains from it. He has no intercourse with girls who are still under the protection of father or mother, brother, sister or relatives, nor with married women, nor female convicts, nor, lastly, with betrothed girls. Source: the Buddhist Dictionary: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/index_dict.n2.htm "Illicit sexual behavior, when indulged in, developed, & pursued, is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry ghosts. The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is future rivalry and revenge, when one becomes a human being. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-040.html "Furthermore, abandoning illicit sex, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from illicit sex. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a fair share of limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the 3rd gift! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-039.html Finally: Ignoring, hiding or not informing about own STD: Knowingly engaging in a sexual contact that puts another being in danger of getting a sexually transmitted disease, which later may make this being suffer and maybe even be potentially lethal (HIV) is also not only sexual abuse in the Buddhist sense, but also illegal and forbidden by law and thus legally punishable in most countries today. <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <....> #115761 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. sarahprocter... Hi Alex & Kevin, --- On Fri, 17/6/11, truth_aerator wrote: >I hope that it is possible to find unambiguous justification for dry insight in the suttas (4.5 Nikayas please, it is too easy with later material). .... S: You may like to take a look in "Useful Posts" under "Dry Insight" sometime too. (Of course, Alex will say all the examples are "ambiguous":-)) Metta Sarah ===== #115762 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing philofillet Hi Robert To answer your question about where is the dangerous akusala in meditation, I would say that there is potentially danger in modern insight tecniques based on a guru's teaching where students are corraled and forced into following the technique, it cpuld create permanent obstacles to liberation, I guess, perhaps. At other forums there is this weird mindset that the Dhamma equals going on retreats, very unfortunate. As for the tranquility meditation I do, if therewas an addiction to itand an inability to deal with life without it and harsh dosa and harmful behaviour because of withdrawl... that's the only danger I can see. As for atta view, as I said before,meditation provides a stage for the anataness of mind states to play out ss far as I can see. We all have self view, we have to come to see how it's fabricated... Sorry forthe i-phone typos. Over and out... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Robert, Nina and all > > > > Thanks for this, Robert. I still don't know if the meditation I do id in line with thr Buddha's teaching or a kind of yoga, but I don't care. Any risk that it adds to a deepening of atta view (and considering how it provides such a good lesson in the uncontrollability of mind states it seems to me to help see through atta view) is minimal compared to the benefits it brings. The biggest one is that the calm states it usually (but can't be controlled or guaranteed) leads seem to go on through the day and there is a natural and unforced return to them during the day in situations where harmful behaviour beckons, thereby making the behaviour far less likely. It's beautiful. Nina, you have said on several occasions that you dob't understand why people want to have calm, or what is so great about khamma. To me that is akin to saying why do peopkw want to avoid beaviour tgar harms themselves and others, or what is so great about not harming oneself or others. Of course there are deeper and better ways that may on occasion arise for us to prevent harming, and of course when liberating panna really develops tge harming is done with. But for now I am so grateful to have this meditation because of the way it dramatically ( but not perfectly, no self to control mind states) reduces the likelihood of harmful behaviour... > > Yes, I also agree, in addition to the cumulative benefits of positive disciplines, that your pragmatic view of meditation is a good one. It's not a substitute for Dhamma, but you can see the positive effect that it actually has in your everyday life. Perhaps in some roundabout way it could turn out that being happier and calmer and doing more good and less evil could somehow turn out to be "unwholesome," but personally I really doubt it, and can't really see how a general development of positive healthy feelings and behavior can secretly be a bad thing, to be avoided because of some kind of weird hidden danger. If one graduates from feeling lust all the time and sometimes acting on it to feeling more content and focused on positive things, then where is the akusala? I would like someone to show me where in such a scenario the akusala is supposed to be hiding? Does such a positive development further solidify the sense of self-view and make us feel "better about ourselves," and is this akusala? If so, then one is left with the clearly perverse view that one must avoid all positive kusala activities, thoughts and feelings, because they may make us feel better, this may lead to enhanced self-view and this may breed greater akusala. If so, then what is the solution? Should we keep doing bad things and entertaining akusala thoughts and feelings so that we will feel bad about ourselves and have weaker self-view? That does not make much sense, and would wind up with the proposition that more kusala - more akusala, and more akusala = more kusala. > > I think it's safe to say that doing more wholesome things and engaging activities that lead to greater wholesomeness *is kusala* and that this is an aspect of kusala that can be demonstrated in everyday life. All the other weird mental calistenics that warn us away from positive activities -- in fact almost everything that life has to offer other than reading Abhidhamma commentaries, the only safe bet! -- seem to be pretty akusala to me, telling us that when we feel better it is bad, when we are calm we are really not calm, when we are happy we are really going off the path, and when we do good things and positive activities we are breeding hidden unwholesomeness. I really reject that kind of an inverted view of the Dhamma and of life. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = > #115763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 19-jun-2011, om 19:53 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I think that if done with some understanding of living a generally > good life and doing beneficial activities for the body and mind, > and that one is not substituting such things for Dhamma, that doing > yoga or other positive activities can be a source of wholesomeness > and positive balance in the body and the mind, and do not need to > be avoided. ------ N: This is no problem to me. Yoga can have a good effect. One does not have to avoid anything, just live your life naturally. When there is attachment to bodily wellbeing, this is very common and it does not have to be avoided. But it is helpful to have more understanding of the different moments in our life. The Abhidhamma can truly help. Bodily wellbeing is kusala vipaakacitta, citta that is result of kusala kamma. It is neither kusala nor akusala but vipaaka. Shortly afterwards there can be akusala citta with attachment and that is different from vipaakacitta. Or one may reflect on the Dhamma and that can be done with kusala citta. Different moments of citta alternate very quickly and we can gradually learn the difference. You write: R: It is not a matter of what the discipline is or whether it feels good or is healthy that makes it potentially akusala; it is rather what is going on in the mind and the volition that may make any activity, including a Buddhist one, akusala. ------- N: That is very true. One can do yoga or Tai chi with forgetfulness or with mindfulness of the different phenomena that appear, such as hardness, heat, thinking, attachment. ----- Nina. #115764 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Rob K, Interesting discussing - --- On Sat, 18/6/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >R: Yes I was thinking of another text. I asked at the foundation today > and one of the Pali experts found it in the thera/therigatha > atthakatha, near the end. > In this text it explains that all of the makasavaka , the eighty > great discples which I think includes yasa, were jhana labhi. > As I understand it due to their parami even they had no jhana > before meeting Buddha it can happen that they gain mastery and > powers coincident with attaining path and fruit. ... S: Doesn't this refer to when they became arahats and then utttered the verses? Also, when you wrote "I agree of course that there are many examples of disciples who became arhat without jhana", can you give any examples? When I've asked K.Sujin about this, her comment has been along the lines that we cannot know/say this for the reason you mention above. ... >N: ...But I still wonder about all those texts about the gradual teaching where people attained without the Buddha even mentioning jhaana. Like the leper, Suppabuddha. Perhaps we can conclude to this when we are sure he was not one of the eighty great disciples? What do you think? .... S: When Yasa (and Suppabuddha) heard the Gradual Teaching, they became sotapannas, not arahats. Yasa became an arahat the next day, so it would seem quite possible, I think, that he became a sotapanna on hearing the Gradual Teachings with "dry insight" and became an arahat the next day as "jhana labhi". In the commentary to the Dhammapada, "The Chief Disciples", 1.8 it says: "Having set in motion the glorious Wheel of the Law, on the fifth day of the half-month he established all those monks in Arahatship. On the same day also he perceived that the noble youth Yasa possessed the dispositions requisite for Conversion; and when the noble youth Yasa left his house in disgust at what he saw during the night, he saw him and summoned him and made a monk of him, saying, "Come, Yasa!" In that same night also he caused him to attain the Fruit of Conversion, and on the following day caused him to attain Arahatship." Metta Sarah ======= #115765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Phil, Op 20-jun-2011, om 2:04 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you have said on several occasions that you don't understand > why people want to have calm, or what is so great about calm. ------- N: It is important to know what calm is, otherwise people may take for calm what is attachment to calm. That is the point I want to bring. True calm is being away from akusala, it arises with each kusala citta. True calm has to be praised. However, cittas arise and fall away very rapidly, and it is not easy to distinguish the different types from each other. I think that it is dangerous to take akusala for kusala. ------ Nina. #115766 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Fri, 17/6/11, truth_aerator wrote: >I am all for there being a "dry-insight" path. The easier, the better. >I have my reasons... With poor health, it is hard (or almost impossible, save for the most gifted) to reach deep samatha states... ... S: It's not a matter of an "easy" path or of selecting a kind of path either. If there is a trying, a straining (and any effort to try and have any dhammas or states arise is a straining), it is bound to lead to disturbance, agitation and poor health. Understanding what appears now is the only path, the path of anatta. Metta Sarah ======= #115767 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta. nilovg Dear Sarah, Rob K, Alex, Op 20-jun-2011, om 10:02 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: When Yasa (and Suppabuddha) heard the Gradual Teaching, they > became sotapannas, not arahats. > > Yasa became an arahat the next day, so it would seem quite > possible, I think, that he became a sotapanna on hearing the > Gradual Teachings with "dry insight" and became an arahat the next > day as "jhana labhi". > > In the commentary to the Dhammapada, "The Chief Disciples", 1.8 it > says: > > "Having set in motion the glorious Wheel of the Law, on the fifth > day of the half-month he established all those monks in Arahatship. > On the same day also he perceived that the noble youth Yasa > possessed the dispositions requisite for Conversion; and when the > noble youth Yasa left his house in disgust at what he saw during > the night, he saw him and summoned him and made a monk of him, > saying, "Come, Yasa!" In that same night also he caused him to > attain the Fruit of Conversion, and on the following day caused him > to attain Arahatship." ------- N: This is very interesting. I also agree with Alex when he said that one never knows a person's former accumulations. In the Theragatha it is said that Yasa attained the Tevijja, the three Knowledges, with includes supramundane powers only obtained by jhaana labhii. What strikes me also in the texts on the Gradual Teaching: the Buddha gave a talk on giving, talk on moral habit, talk on heaven, he explained the peril, the vanity, the depravity of pleasures of the senses, the advantage in renouncing them. After that when the listener was ready he spoke about the four noble Truths. He did not speak about jhaana as a necessary condition on the occasion of a gradual teaching. Nina. #115768 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Rob E, --- On Mon, 20/6/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: That is very true. One can do yoga or Tai chi with forgetfulness or with mindfulness of the different phenomena that appear, such as hardness, heat, thinking, attachment. .... S: Just the same as during any activity of course. Most the time there's just lobha and moha of course. As you can see, I'm back from my quick trip to Guangzhou for the "China-India Yoga Conference" with Mr Iyengar, India's famous yoga master. It was the first trip of its kind in China and a big diplomatic, cultural event with many long speeches on the first day, many of which I skipped. (Rob, Obviously Mr Iyengar's long speech hadn't been vetted by the Chinese hosts because at one point he mentioned that yoga had some old associations in China and that Chiang Kai-shek practised yoga in the '40s. Oops, an unmentionable name of the Kuomintang leader that fled to Taiwan). The simultaneous translation was halted while awaiting instruction and then proceeded by saying "some previous Chinese leaders" practised yoga.) Anyway, for the next 3 days, Mr Iyengar, (aged 93) personally taught and guided us in a physically strong yoga practice. People have different motivations, different philosophies, but for me it was an interesting mini-holiday, just like I might go with friends on a swimming, surfing or hiking holiday with instructions or maps. Having pracised this 'brand' of dynamic yoga for so very long, I'd always been curious to be in a class with the "Master" himself. A couple of friends had come from Australia, so I found I was looking after them and others who were having language and cultural difficulties quite a lot. Many opportunities for kindness and consideration at such a big event (about a thousand participants - all nationalities, but mostly Chinese), but few opportunities to discuss the Dhamma and I didn't try, although a couple of friends did ask me more about my interest in Buddhism, why I wasn't vegetarian and other fairly common questions. It was "India meets China" with the un-surprising result of a lot of chaos, delays, confusion, cameras, noise, bright lights and general great enthusiasm! Azita will really understand:-) I'll share any further detail off-list if I get round to it, Rob and Azita. Anyway, all the usual candidates for sati and panna, just like now, including the attachment to being home after an exhausting few days:-) Metta Sarah ===== #115769 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for an interesting report. I got impressed by Iyengar after Rob E's anecdotes. And, not to forget: the usual lobha, dosa and moha, as during any activity. Nina. Op 20-jun-2011, om 10:39 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Just the same as during any activity of course. Most the time > there's just lobha and moha of course. > > As you can see, I'm back from my quick trip to Guangzhou for the > "China-India Yoga Conference" with Mr Iyengar #115770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 20-jun-2011, om 2:59 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Should we keep doing bad things and entertaining akusala thoughts > and feelings so that we will feel bad about ourselves and have > weaker self-view? That does not make much sense, and would wind up > with the proposition that more kusala - more akusala, and more > akusala = more kusala.... in fact almost everything that life has to offer other than reading Abhidhamma commentaries, the only safe bet! -- seem to be pretty akusala to me, telling us that when we feel better it is bad, when we are calm we are really not calm, when we are happy we are really going off the path, and when we do good things and positive activities we are breeding hidden unwholesomeness. I really reject that kind of an inverted view of the Dhamma and of life. ------ N: Well, you know that is not the idea of Dhamma study. As I said, do all the things you are used to doing, and one should not feel guilty about these or think that one has to avoid them for fear of attachment to self. But more understanding won't hurt. Also, we can find out that there is more akusala than we ever thought, but this is not depressing. Better to know than not to know. But this does not mean that one has to change one's life style. Just comprehend, comprehend! This is not at all an excuse to give in to bad ways of living. Perhaps it is hard to explain and understand what the Middle Way is. Nina. #115771 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:18 am Subject: Re: wisdom and doing truth_aerator Hi KenH, Sarah, Nina, Kevin, all, >KH: What is meditation? Is it part of normal daily life, or is it >something special? Part of normal daily life. Just like walking. >KH: So why do something special - if it is just as likely to be with >atta view? It is as special as walking. Maybe you should stop walking then and see where it leads you. >KH: We still need to know what this "meditation" is. Assuming it is >something outside normal daily life, why is it done? Did the Buddha >teach it? It is normal daily life. It is done because of causes and conditions. One observes the namarupas naturally occurring with sati and panna. Meditation is not a conventional practice. It is not something to be done in order to gain something. It is a conditioned citta, beyond anyone's control. With metta, Alex #115772 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:39 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta. truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, All, >N: What strikes me also in the texts on the Gradual Teaching: the >Buddha gave a talk on giving, talk on moral habit, talk on heaven, >he explained the peril, the vanity, the depravity of pleasures of >the senses, the advantage in renouncing them. After that when the >listener was ready he spoke about the four noble Truths. He did not >speak about jhaana as a necessary condition on the occasion of a >gradual teaching. Maybe that person KNEW about Jhanas, and may have even attained them many times prior. All that particular person was missing was a bit more guidance. Remember that suttas are notes from the Buddha's sermons on particular occasions, to particular people and teaching a particular thing that those people needed at that time. The suttas did not have to or even could mention absolutely everything that the person did prior to meeting the Buddha and hearing that sermon which was recorded in a sutta. Those who were good at Jhana, the Buddha have taught wisdom so they could reach nibbana. Those people who were wise, he taught them Jhana so that they would reach Nibbana. Whatever they lacked, He taught them. We have to examine the context, and never use a particular case as general one-size-fits-all teaching. "There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html Please note what is required. Let us also not forget that the Buddha taught N8P, never N7P. Those gradual teaching sermons may have lasted a lot longer than we think and included the person fulfilling N8P which included Jhanas. "Then when he saw that [alex: the listener's] mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, " Those seem to describe concentrated mental state. Anyways, Buddha would seriously contradict himself if He taught that Jhanas are not required. IMHO. With metta, Alex #115773 From: A T Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:49 am Subject: Dry insight in sutta/tipitaka truth_aerator Hello all, On the other hand... "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness," The "wisdom" there, AN4.92-94, could be suttamaya or cint?maya paññ? - considering that no mention of the path is until 4th case. These by themselves do not constitute awakening, bh?van?maya paññ? is required. The sutta does in the bottom of it says that: ""As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations." - AN4.94 In those suttas it is the 4th case (both insight & tranquility) that is mentioned to lead to maggaphala. It seems strange that Buddha taught N8P and allows for N7P. Furthermore, I wonder if the whole split of "Tranquility vs Insight" is as sharp and divisive as the Buddha has thought. Maybe these are two factors of ONE Noble Eightfold path that culminates in Jh?na? After all, one can't have Jh?na without paññ?. So it is not that case that Jh?na is done without paññ?. "There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." - Dhp 372 "Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana - directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention" - MN111 Note: Mindfulness (sati) is present in Jh?na. So it is not the case of either/or. Concentration or insight. The phrase that "samatha leads to abandonment of lust... Wisdom leads to abandonment of ignorance" doesn't necessarily have to signify two distinct and mutually exclusive paths with two different and mutually exclusive goals. One path, culminating in Jh?nas contains multiple factors with distinct functions. One part of it destroys lust, another part destroys ignorance. These two parts are like two sides of the same ONE coin... Maybe the analytical split is only a conceptual one, done by well meaning scholars who tried to be as precise as possible and have introduced unnecessary distinctions. In reality things happen much more interdependently, homogeneously and rarely (if ever) can be split up like that. Only as an abstraction, in the head of those analytical scholars. IMHO. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html#fnt-2 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html With metta, Alex #115774 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing philofillet Hi Nina, thanks for this, you write beliw "I think it is dangerous to take akusala for kusala." I guess this is what it comes down to. I think it is dangerous to perform akusala kamma patha. I know there is akusala lobha involved in my meditation, but I also know that the calm states of mind it leads to during the day help to condition freedom from bad deeds. I cannot compare the akusala involved in a moment of harsh, hateful speech to a loved one, for example, with the akusala involved in clinging to pleasant mental states obtained through meditation. Experirnce shows me in an irrefutable way that the days on which I lash out with harsh speech are days on which I haven't meditated, the pattern is too consistent to ignore any longer. Fredom from lashing out with harsh speech is a beautiful thing. Will the clinging involved in tranquility meditation (or breath yoga, if that is what it is) create barriers to that higher liberation that comes through developing satipatthana?I guess that is a good question. I hope it doesn't, but even if I knew it did I would not give up the provisional protection from harsh speech and other harmful deeds that I know from experience comes through this "meditation" I do! Thanks Nina. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 20-jun-2011, om 2:04 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > Nina, you have said on several occasions that you don't understand > > why people want to have calm, or what is so great about calm. > ------- > N: It is important to know what calm is, otherwise people may take > for calm what is attachment to calm. That is the point I want to > bring. True calm is being away from akusala, it arises with each > kusala citta. True calm has to be praised. However, cittas arise and > fall away very rapidly, and it is not easy to distinguish the > different types from each other. I think that it is dangerous to take > akusala for kusala. > ------ > Nina. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #115775 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:18 am Subject: Kamma banthu kamma patisaranu (Han) philofillet Hi Han How have you been, my dear Dhamma friend? I listen to the recollections on ageing etc. in Pali and wonder about the meani g of two terms that are translated as kamma is my relations kamma is my protection which I think are the terms in the title. Can you help me understand them? I think I understand the other terms such as kamma yoni etc... Metta Phil #115776 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing philofillet Hi again Correction. I wrote that even if I knew my "meditation" (which might be a kind of breath yoga rather than proper meditatiin on the breath as taught by the Buddha) created barriers to liberation, I would continue doing it. That was going too far. But I will say that even if there is such a possibility, I will continue. I will keep listening to A Sujin and others to better understand that possibility. It would help if somw teacher not from A.S's lineage(?)would speak out about the danger of meditation as it is universally understood today.... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygro@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina, thanks for this, you write beliw "I think it is dangerous to take akusala for kusala." I guess this is what it comes down to. I think it is dangerous to perform akusala kamma patha. I know there is akusala lobha involved in my meditation, but I also know that the calm states of mind it leads to during the day help to condition freedom from bad deeds. I cannot compare the akusala involved in a moment of harsh, hateful speech to a loved one, for example, with the akusala involved in clinging to pleasant mental states obtained through meditation. Experirnce shows me in an irrefutable way that the days on which I lash out with harsh speech are days on which I haven't meditated, the pattern is too consistent to ignore any longer. Fredom from lashing out with harsh speech is a beautiful thing. Will the clinging involved in tranquility meditation (or breath yoga, if that is what it is) create barriers to that higher liberation that comes through developing satipatthana?I guess that is a good question. I hope it doesn't, but even if I knew it did I would not give up the provisional protection from harsh speech and other harmful deeds that I know from experience comes through this "meditation" I do! Thanks Nina. > > Metta, > Phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Phil, > > Op 20-jun-2011, om 2:04 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > > > Nina, you have said on several occasions that you don't understand > > > why people want to have calm, or what is so great about calm. > > ------- > > N: It is important to know what calm is, otherwise people may take > > for calm what is attachment to calm. That is the point I want to > > bring. True calm is being away from akusala, it arises with each > > kusala citta. True calm has to be praised. However, cittas arise and > > fall away very rapidly, and it is not easy to distinguish the > > different types from each other. I think that it is dangerous to take > > akusala for kusala. > > ------ > > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > #115777 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:40 am Subject: What is Suffering? bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the primary Components of Suffering? At Savatthi. While seated, the Venerable R?dha asked the Blessed Buddha : Venerable Sir, one says: M?ra, M?ra! What, Venerable Sir, is M?ra? Form, R?dha, is suffering, feeling is suffering, perception is suffering, mental constructions are suffering, consciousness is suffering... ! R?dha, you should abandon desire, you should abandon lust, you should cease all desire and all lust, for whatever is a state of M?ra ... for whatever is impermanent ... for whatever is of an impermanent nature ... for whatever is suffering ... for whatever is of a painful nature ... for whatever is non-self ... for whatever is of a selfless nature ... for whatever is a state of destruction ... for whatever is a state of vanishing ... for what-ever is a state of arising ... for whatever is of a nature to cease! And what, R?dha, is of a nature to cease? All form is of a nature to cease... All feeling is of a nature to cease... All perception is of a nature to cease... All mental constructions are of a nature to cease... All consciousness is of a nature to cease... Understanding this, Bhikkhu, a well instructed Noble Disciple experiences disgust towards form, disgust towards feeling, disgust towards perception, disgust towards mental construction, & disgust towards consciousness itself! Experiencing disgust, he becomes disillusioned! Through disillusion his mind is released. When it is released, he instantly knows: This mind is liberated, and he understands: Extinguished is rebirth, this Noble Life is all completed, done is what should be done, there is no state of being beyond this... SN 23 24-34 III 199 See also how Buddha explains R?dha how to smash, scatter, & demolish being: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html <...> Gaining one more womb, stranded on yet another placental afterbirth is no victory! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya 23:24-34 III 199 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Du = Bad, Kha = State, Duk+kha = Literally "Bad State"! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <....> #115778 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:03 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (114971) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > I think I'm going to have to agree that any kind of genuine mindfulness will have to be "actual mindfulness." I guess the question is what is the level of seeing and understanding that has to be developed for such to take place. > >=============== > > J: My understanding on the question of the level of seeing and understanding that has to be developed in order for genuine/actual mindfulness to take place is that mindfulness and the seeing and understanding of dhammas go hand in hand (and so there's no particular level of one that's a prerequisite for the other) Well I guess my point was that mindfulness is mindfulness. I see it as a quality to be cultivated rather than a zero sum game that pops into existence full-blown like a full-grown baby, or else is nonexistent. I don't think that mindfulness is a "thing" that can be quantified or objectified as a 'real quantity.' I anticipate that you will say that you never said any of this was the case, and I admit that is true. :-) > >=============== > [RE:] I am thinking that one can be still in a pretty ordinary state of mind but with some development of understanding and some development of concentration and clear seeing that would allow for real moments of mindfulness to arise and be recognized, that's all. > >=============== > > J: If you're talking about previously accumulated development of understanding, then I'd agree that this is necessary for there to be mindfulness arising. Well that's not what I said, but that's okay. My point was that mindfulness can arise within a fairly ordinary state of mind, and can be develped further through cultivation. > >=============== > > [RE:] The idea that kusala breeds kusala, and mindfulness breeds mindfulness, has a little bit of infinite regress to it. There have to be moments that arise that happen out of actually seeing at the moment - that moment that everyone is so fond of - not just out of the re-emergence of previous accumulations. > >=============== > > J: But these moments of mindfulness or other kusala that, as you put it, 'happen out of actually seeing at the moment', are surely instances of the arising of previously accumulated kusala also. Why? Why can't seeing arise out of the moment itself? How come the same folks that insist on a single moment universe also insist that that single moment can't do or have anything without the support of ancient accumulations that have nothing directly to do with the present moment? It's a beautiful contradiction if you think about it, spanning millenia with totally contrary emphases perfectly balanced with each other. It's like a cosmic ballet, or an amazing yoga stretch backwards in which one can see one's feet over one's shoulder. > The alternative would seem to be kusala arising out of nowhere ;-)) That's only true if you think that kusala is a "something" that appears as a real "thing." If kusala is just the harmonious emergence or development of that which is wholesome and harmonious, then it can arise out of conditions that come together for that effect. Is it necessary that those conditions have to be in particular categories, such as "kusala" as if it were a category in its own right rather than an attribute of that which is wholesome, and in addition have to come from ancient accumulations rather than current or recent development? Why? In addition, your model of accumulation of kusala falls prey to the same critique you are giving the "alternative" view: If kusala is the result of the accumulation of past kusala, where did the original kusala come from? It too must have come from nowhere, since kusala never arises from present conditions. So the "kusala from nowhere" is in both models when approached with your view of accumulation. In my view, kusala can come from current conditions, so there is no great mystery there, and it can also be developed through wholesome practices - another explanation that doesn't suffer from infinite regress, as yours appears to. > The kusala (and akusala too for that matter) arises within a stream of cittas, so it must be 'there' somewhere already. That is an argument that contains its justification in its own internal presuppositions - which you must agree is a form of argument that is not supported by any form of actual proof or evidence. You suppose that kusala must arise within a stream of cittas. That is a presupposition with which I don't agree. You then suppose that it must already be within that stream - another presupposition. There is no reason why it can't be a property of the conditions that come together in that stream - but that would contradict another undisclosed presuppositions: that kusala is a discrete substance, like "manna," rather than a property of harmony and wholesomeness between other elements, as I think it is. Have you ever seen a "kusala?" What does one look like? There is no such thing as "kusala" as a noun, except as a general concept, eg, "I would like to have more wholesomeness in my life." In that sentence, there really isn't any such noun as "wholesomeness." It's really a general adjective disguised as a noun which is seen as a property to be cultivated. And I believe that is how it mistakenly came to be seen as a Noun in the first place - one generalizes the property of wholesomeness out of the desire for more wholesome things, abstracts the wholesomeness from its objects and then comes to believe it is an object in its own right - a substance of some kind; and thus it has been transformed from an adjective describing the good things in the spiritual life, to a noun that is the good thing in itself. > By the way, I've not been saying that the conditions for the arising of kusala are just the previously accumulated tendency. There must be other conditions as well (such as hearing the teachings appropriately explained). Right - the present moment, which is the only thing that actually exists, adds nothing to its own qualities, it is an empty recipient of nothing but a melange of past accumulations - can you see the contradiction there? It almost seems absurd, like bad goodness or planned spontaneity. Here we have "preordained instantaneousness." It's a total contradiction in terms. > >=============== > > [RE:] I may actually be suggesting that, just as learning to walk arises from a series of "almost-walkings," rather than from "previously well-accomplished" walkings, there is development rather than wholly-formed moments of total mindfulness floating around which lead to further ones at unspecified times of arising. > >=============== > > J: Yes, this is what I call the 'practice makes perfect' simile. It's not a simile; it's an actuality. "Practice makes perfect" is only a simile to someone who has dismissed all reference to actual experience, and is falling back upon concepts that have no referents. There are no perfect Platonic "mindfulness bubbles" suddenly floating into consciousness in real life, but they are adhered to as part of a philosophy that is thoroughly conceptual. > But as far as I know, no such simile was ever given by the Buddha. As far as I know, Buddha did not consider practice to be a simile, since he advocated it constantly as actual doing by real monks. He spoke of right effort, right action, right livelihood and many other actual doings and strivings. He spoke of practice, effort, vigilance and development. It takes a thorough set of ideal concepts to take this direct instruction and turn it into a completely passive operation in which there are no objects, no bodies, no people, and no actions; only moments experienced passively by pure consciousness, which the Buddha also never spoke of. > >=============== > I have a more mundane view of development, and don't adhere to the idea that there is a radical wholly-formed arising of an ideal moment of sati that somehow gets produced - don't see how it would. As I imply above, mindfulness is seeing clearly and that is something that is developed and perfected through developmental stages. I see that in most Buddhist practice, and I see that in the stages outlined in the Visuddhimagga and various suttas, so it doesn't seem strange to me at all. It also fits with other developmental experiences we have, such as learning anything at all. We learn a bit at a time and eventually piece together the whole. The idea that mindfulness moments - or kusala moments - are "perfect" little units and arise as "wholes" which then lead to further "perfect wholes" arising later seems like an idealistic view of development that is Platonic [to use one popular example] in nature. I don't see the basis for thinking that things develop that way, in perfect jumps, rather than in gradual steps. I don't see it in the Dhamma, and don't understand why it is or should be so. It doesn't seem necessary to me at all in order to understand the progression of insight and understanding that mark the path. > >=============== > > J: How plausible or not the description contained in the commentaries seems is not really a suitable touchstone. Our ideas of what is plausible are tainted by ignorance, wrong view and other accumulated akusala tendencies :-)) My idea of what is plausible is influenced as much as possible by what I read the Buddha saying. I don't take his instructions, principles and admonitions and translate them all into passive experiencings, based on a later philosophy that puts new words in his mouth. > Better just to acknowledge what the texts say and let the matter rest there. Yes, let's see what the texts say. For all our text challenges I am still waiting for some good quotes from you to illustrate what you are saying. You've gotten a few from me, and I am still waiting for yours! :-) My quotes have been from sutta; I would like to see where yours are that justify the above statements. If they are from commentary, that will be good to see which commentaries support your view and which commentators wrote them. The commentators were very wise, so I'm sure I will learn a lot from your forthcoming quotes. ;-)) With metta and appreciation, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #115779 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/19/2011 8:42:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Hi Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > If there is an alternative quantum view to the above, can you describe > a > > probably scenario for me? I would like to consider it. It's an > intriguing > > topic in any case! > > --------------------------------------------- > > H: > > I am ignorant of the details of quantum theory and its mathematics. > > I'm a total layperson as regards that and only mention it as a > motivation. > > But I do believe that my perspective on 'idappaccayata' accords with > the > > Buddha's; namely mere "this-that conditionality". > > ---------------------------------------------- > > I can't really see how "this-that" association really counts as > conditionality. Certainly conditionality means that there is either a unidirectional > or codependent causal relation between two things, not just that they are > observed to arise at the same time. > ---------------------------------------------- > H: > According to the Buddha, all this/that-conditionality requires is > objectivity, necessity, invariability, and dependence. No "causal force" or > hidden, substantial connection is required. > --------------------------------------------- Well I note that dependence is in there. Dependence is a causal property, at least to the extent that the result X cannot occur without it. It would be like needing soap to wash the dishes. The soap doesn't wash the dishes, but without it the dishes can't get properly washed. > I understand that from the Buddha's way of teaching via "this-that" > association that he is more concerned with the observation of what accompanies > phenomena and deduces from this that they are indeed conditional. However, I > wonder if that is where we are supposed to stop and not inquire into how > conditions create various phenomena, as is laid out in much more detail in > the Abdhidhamma. > > What do you think is the meaning of Buddha stopping at a "this-that" > description of conditionality, if indeed he did. > --------------------------------------------- > H: > That it is "just that" - suchness, tathata. It, as the case with all > aspects of reality, is insubstantial. > ------------------------------------------ Thanks; that is a very phenomenal view, and it seems like the Buddha may have shared it! :-) I don't totally agree with it - I see causality into dependent arising, but I may be of the mark. I guess I'm not as zen as I think I am... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #115780 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Robert > > To answer your question about where is the dangerous akusala in meditation, I would say that there is potentially danger in modern insight tecniques based on a guru's teaching where students are corraled and forced into following the technique, it cpuld create permanent obstacles to liberation, I guess, perhaps. I'm sure this could be true if it were taking place, but most of the insight centers I have heard about, or known people to participate in, were very much based on an open form of meditation in which the attributes of calm and insight are naturally cultivated. I guess any discipline could potentially be turned into a cult if it is mishandled, even studying Dhamma! > At other forums there is this weird mindset that the Dhamma equals going on retreats, very unfortunate. That can happen, that people can focus on one technique and not be aware of the whole path. > As for the tranquility meditation I do, if there was an addiction to it and an inability to deal with life without it and harsh dosa and harmful behaviour because of withdrawal... that's the only danger I can see. Yes, it's always possible to be addicted to techniques or practices. That is a good warning. That is why I think Buddha suggested looking at everything with mindfulness, even the stages of progress that one achieves, or thinks they do, and regard them with detachment. > As for atta view, as I said before,meditation provides a stage for the anataness of mind states to play out as far as I can see. We all have self view, we have to come to see how it's fabricated... I totally agree with you on this. I hope you continue to feel more calm and clarity as you go forward. Best, Robert E. #115781 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ...Yoga can have a good effect. One does > not have to avoid anything, just live your life naturally. When there > is attachment to bodily wellbeing, this is very common and it does > not have to be avoided. > But it is helpful to have more understanding of the different moments > in our life. The Abhidhamma can truly help. > Bodily wellbeing is kusala vipaakacitta, citta that is result of > kusala kamma. It is neither kusala nor akusala but vipaaka. Shortly > afterwards there can be akusala citta with attachment and that is > different from vipaakacitta. Or one may reflect on the Dhamma and > that can be done with kusala citta. Different moments of citta > alternate very quickly and we can gradually learn the difference. ...One can do yoga or Tai chi with forgetfulness > or with mindfulness of the different phenomena that appear, such as > hardness, heat, thinking, attachment. Thank you Nina, I appreciate what you advise here. Thank you for this good exchange! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #115782 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice sarahprocter... Hi Colette, With regard to the discussion I was having with Howard about kamma and the development of skilful states, you wrote in #115677: --- On Thu, 16/6/11, colette wrote: >Jeeze, have you learned a lot about DANCING! I've just found this post/reply and am laughing since I can "sense" and "feel" that something is amiss here, in your reply to HOWARD, but since I haven't had time to think much about it, I CANNOT PUT MY FINGER ON THE EXACT CONCEPT THAT YOU APPLY IN YOUR DANCING AROUND/ABOUT THE ISSUES EXPRESSED BY HOWARD. .... S: :-) In brief, Howard quoted from a sutta which indicates that if everything in life is caused by what has been done in the past and past kamma, there'd be no purpose in hearing the Buddha's words or developing any skilful states because we could just say we killed or stole or performed any evil deeds because of past deeds. Clearly this isn't so and I suggested this is not because of free-will or self-control or anything else to do with atta. It is because skilful mental states can be developed right now. However, we need to be clear that such skilful states now are not developed by a Self and that these states also arise only when the right conditions are in place. Now we're discussing the Dhamma and this is a condition for wise reflection to occur. .... >it's a bothersome sensation but it still amuses me enough to cause LAUGHTER within me, even to cause LAUGHTER from me which I give to you here. .... S: You make me smile too! I appreciate that you're attempting to follow the thread. As we know, the Buddha's teachings are very subtle, not easily comprehensible. Please ask any of us to elaborate on what we're saying anytime if it seems like a "a lot about DANCING"! ... >I'm gonna save this one and give it some thought since HOWARD'S stuff is usually good, and your replies usually are good, but a bit dry i.e. not enough shortening used in the mixing process before baking. .... S: :-)) Thx for the feedback! I'll try to remember the shortening, but have never been a good baker! ... >I think the CAUSATION for your DANCING AROUND THE ISSUE is that Howard's stuff may be a bit too delicate for you to handle and for the group to handle. .... S: Maybe.....:-) We'll have to ask Howard to elaborate in that case. ... >You know, that if I get a group grasp of the entire post/reply, then you can count on me to give you the straight dope, 100% full strength without being cut or diluted in any way, which is one of my characteristics of NOT CLOUDING THE ISSUES by trying to put rose colored glasses on other people so that they see through a filter that I CHOOSE FOR THEM TO SEE THROUGH. ... S: In that case, I'll look forward to the "straight dope". Let us know if you'd like any further elaborations first. Metta Sarah ======== #115783 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Fri, 17/6/11, Robert E wrote: > "He understands thus: 'There is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to its arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere any depository in the way of a heap or store or hoard of what has ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (cf S.iv, 197), but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lute's neck, and the man's appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes - so too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, and having been, they vanish', " ... R:>I enjoyed reading this passage very much, and I like the idea of the existent reality arising out of nothing, as it were, but the present conditions. However, it doesn't quite account for the mysterious passing on of accumulations, tendencies and qualities that continue in development. Do all of these passed-on elements all arise, perfectly configured, as it were, out of nothing? .... S: We can say this, i.e. "perfectly configured, as it were, out of nothing", in the sense that the elements which arose before have completely fallen away and there is no "heap or store". However, as we know, the "perfectly configured" elements are just the way they are because of all the different conditions, all the previous elements that have played their role in providing conditions for the elements which arise now to be just the way they are. This moment of seeing and the visible object which is seen now could not be any other way. This is the balancing of the different ayatanas on the needle point. I think that the more we understand about conditions (and not just theoretically, but at this moment), the more we can appreciate this passage. ... >When the lute is plucked and the vibration arises, it arises out of a structure that is intact, a solid construction that is capable of playing that particular note in that vibration. I wonder what the equivalent structure is in the arising of a perfectly configured citta, with all the qualities and accumulations of the citta before it? .... S: Just as the sound of the lute depends on many different conditions, so the citta now depends on manifold conditions. Each citta is different and depends on different conditions. For example, seeing consciousness is a citta and the main condition for its arising is past kamma. There also have to be many other conditions, however, as support conditions. If we are talking about the citta rooted in attachment arising now, then the main condition is different. In this case the main condition is the natural decisive support condition, i.e. the accumulation of past attachment. Again, many, many other support conditions are necessary for the citta with attachment to arise now. So just as the sound of the lute depend on a complexity of factors (in conventional speech), so do the cittas now, in reality, depend on many different conditions to be just as they are. You many find it interesting to participate in Kevin's thread on conditions too. Metta Sarah ======= #115784 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Rob E), --- On Fri, 17/6/11, upasaka@... wrote: >H: Some events are conditioned by immediate preconditions, and some only by earlier, even long-passed, preconditions. It is mere this/that-conditionality, with there being no literal stores of anything. Whatever occurs does so that very instant and does not outlive that instant. When a condition occurs, a volition for example, it is right then and there a condition for the consequences of it. A consequence of a condition (eventually) occurs when, but not before, all the preconditions for the consequence have been met. Nothing literally accumulates in the sense of being stored up. The term 'accumulations' is only metaphorical, as I understand the matter. .... S: Well expressed! Metta Sarah ======= #115785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:47 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws nilovg Dear Vince, Op 17-jun-2011, om 5:17 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: >> There can be clinging to the effort to understand, you are right. No >> use of trying. But we cannot force ourselves to be detached, it is >> pa~n~na's work. > > yes, thanks. My question arose forgetting the detachement also is > the work of > panna. > I forget again and again... And is worse forgeting the basic things > than > ignoring new ones :( ------- N: We all tend to forget, that is very common. Even forgetfulness is conditioned, not my forgetfulness. Lodewijk had an example of forgetfulness. Today, on the street he had to pick up something and then lost his balance and fell down, could not get up by himself. Three people helped him to get up. He said that at that moment he did not think: there is no Lodewijk fallen down on the street. He had an opportunity to appreciate the great kindness of these people and one of them offered to take him home in his car. Nina. #115786 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/21/2011 2:06:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/19/2011 8:42:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Hi Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > If there is an alternative quantum view to the above, can you describe > a > > probably scenario for me? I would like to consider it. It's an > intriguing > > topic in any case! > > --------------------------------------------- > > H: > > I am ignorant of the details of quantum theory and its mathematics. > > I'm a total layperson as regards that and only mention it as a > motivation. > > But I do believe that my perspective on 'idappaccayata' accords with > the > > Buddha's; namely mere "this-that conditionality". > > ---------------------------------------------- > > I can't really see how "this-that" association really counts as > conditionality. Certainly conditionality means that there is either a unidirectional > or codependent causal relation between two things, not just that they are > observed to arise at the same time. > ---------------------------------------------- > H: > According to the Buddha, all this/that-conditionality requires is > objectivity, necessity, invariability, and dependence. No "causal force" or > hidden, substantial connection is required. > --------------------------------------------- Well I note that dependence is in there. Dependence is a causal property, at least to the extent that the result X cannot occur without it. It would be like needing soap to wash the dishes. The soap doesn't wash the dishes, but without it the dishes can't get properly washed. ------------------------------------------------- H: Dependence is, of course, the heart of conditionality, but all that it means for B to depend on A as precondition is that B does not occur if A has not occurred (or does not occur). You want a "why" or "how", but this ultimately comes down to merely "That is the nature of all phenomena other than nibbana." When someone asks why B has occurred, the explanation given is that "B has occurred because A did, and the occurrence of A always guarantees (along with other conditions) the occurrence of B". If that is insufficient for the inquirer, other requisite and supportive conditions for B may be mentioned and, moreover, a chain (or even chains) of conditions from A to B is (or are) offered, and this back & forth continues until the inquirer is satisfied. The inquirer may also, of course, ask why A occurred, which means s/he wants an explanatory chain of conditions leading to A to be provided. That's all. Example: The Buddha said that a phenomenon ceases, "because" it occurred, and similarly, a person dies, because because s/he was born. It is a single-step chain: "Whatever arises ceases, and cessation depends on prior creation". We may ask for longer and longer chains, with more and closer immediate steps, but it always finally comes down to mere "When this is, that is (or will be). When this is not, that is not (or will not be)." No hidden causal forces are presumed. (What sort of dhammas would they be, anyway, other than namas and rupas - mere transient mental and physical activities and qualities? There is nothing in the Buddha's ontology other than nibbana and the various conditioned namas and rupas.) ------------------------------------------------- > I understand that from the Buddha's way of teaching via "this-that" > association that he is more concerned with the observation of what accompanies > phenomena and deduces from this that they are indeed conditional. However, I > wonder if that is where we are supposed to stop and not inquire into how > conditions create various phenomena, as is laid out in much more detail in > the Abdhidhamma. > > What do you think is the meaning of Buddha stopping at a "this-that" > description of conditionality, if indeed he did. > --------------------------------------------- > H: > That it is "just that" - suchness, tathata. It, as the case with all > aspects of reality, is insubstantial. > ------------------------------------------ Thanks; that is a very phenomenal view, and it seems like the Buddha may h ave shared it! :-) I don't totally agree with it - I see causality into dependent arising, but I may be of the mark. I guess I'm not as zen as I think I am... ----------------------------------------------- H: LOL! We all have our "little heresies"! I, for example, have become much influenced in recent years, and increasingly as time goes by, by Judaic "mysticism," which I seem to have no problem harmonizing with the Dhamma. From the Theravadin perspective, that is a terrible heresy, but (guess what?) - I don't care! ;-)) One's religious beliefs and practices are always personal and are rarely, if ever, borrowed whole-cloth from a single source. We may call ourselves X-ists, filling in whatever tradition-name one wishes for the variable, X, but the bottom line is that this is a pigeonholing that is probably never 100% accurate. Moreover, what is useful for one person is hardly ever exactly the same as what is useful for another, and, in a way, there are as many "traditions" as there are people. The bottom line, of course, is that beliefs are beliefs, and reality is reality. We all have our beliefs, but we would do well to hold them lightly, for none of us, so far as I am aware, actually knows reality. --------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dry insight in sutta/tipitaka nilovg Dear Alex, I appreciate it that you so seriously study texts. Op 20-jun-2011, om 16:49 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > The phrase that "samatha leads to abandonment of lust... Wisdom > leads to abandonment of ignorance" doesn't necessarily have to > signify two distinct and mutually exclusive paths with two > different and mutually exclusive goals. One path, culminating in > Jh?nas contains multiple factors with distinct functions. One part > of it destroys lust, another part destroys ignorance. These two > parts are like two sides of the same ONE coin... Maybe the > analytical split is only a conceptual one, done by well meaning > scholars who tried to be as precise as possible and have introduced > unnecessary distinctions. In reality things happen much more > interdependently, homogeneously and rarely (if ever) can be split > up like that. Only as an abstraction, in the head of those > analytical scholars. IMHO. -------- N: There is also samatha in the development of the Path as Kh Sujin also said. When we consider the indiriyas and balas, there is among them concentration. And among the bojjhangas there are tranquillity and concentration. Also, when considering the Path factors, part is siila, part is concentration (viriya, sati and samaadhi) and part is wisdom (vitakka and right view). All these factors are developed together and they are not factors of the eightfold Path without sammaa-di.t.thi accompanying them. I do not see it as one Path culminating in jhaana. Some people could have concentration to the degree of jhaana, others did not, but anyway the purpose is to see the anattaness of whatever reality appears. The Path culminates in pa~n~naa that experiences nibbaana, and this pa~n~naa is accompanied by concentration of the degree of jhaana that is in this case lokuttara jhaana. Perhaps you mean this. You wrote in your other post: N: I do not see it as required. Encouragement is one thing, but a requirement is another thing. -------- Nina. #115788 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Robert) - In a message dated 6/21/2011 5:37:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Rob E), --- On Fri, 17/6/11, upasaka@... wrote: >H: Some events are conditioned by immediate preconditions, and some only by earlier, even long-passed, preconditions. It is mere t his/that-conditionality, with there being no literal stores of anything. Whatever occurs does so that very instant and does not outlive that instant. When a condition occurs, a volition for example, it is right then and there a condition for the consequences of it. A consequence of a condition (eventually) occurs when, but not before, all the preconditions for the consequence have been met. Nothing literally accumulates in the sense of being stored up. The term 'accumulations' is only metaphorical, as I understand the matter. .... S: Well expressed! ----------------------------------------------------- H: Thanks, Sarah. I always find it very pleasant when we view matters similarly. :-) ---------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115789 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:36 am Subject: Without Agitation! bhikkhu5 Friends: Released by Disengaged Non-identification! At Savatthi The Buddha once said: All form is transient, all feeling is transient, all perception is transient, all mental constructions are transient, all consciousness is transient... This transience is suffering! What is suffering is no-self! What is no-self should be seen as it really is with correct understanding in this very way: "All this is not mine, cannot be mine, this I am not, this is not my self!"... When one sees and understands this thus, as it really is with correct and penetrating understanding, then one maintains no views on what is past. When one maintains no more views regarding the past, then one neither maintains any views about the future. When one has relinquished all hopes regarding the future, then one is not being possessed by stubborn clinging! Having no trace of immovable clinging left, the mind becomes disillusioned regarding all form, all feeling, all perception, all mental constructions, and all consciousness. By that it is released from the 3 mental fermentations through detached non-clinging... By being released, the mind is all silenced! By being thus stilled, the mind becomes content... Being content, it is not agitated anymore... Being thus unagitated, one indeed attains Nibb?na! Right there and then, one instantly understands: Ended is this process of rebirth, this Noble Life has been lived, done is all what had to be done, there is no state beyond this... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nik?ya III 55-58 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <....> #115790 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:36 pm Subject: Bahiya Sutta - was Satipatthana Sutta. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Kevin & Alex, --- On Sat, 18/6/11, upasaka@... wrote: H:> So, it is stated that in this past life, the one later to be reborn as Bahiya had been a monk who was seriously engaged in meditation. In his "present" life, Bahiya, already trained in the past, and after persisting in his request to hear the Dhamma from the Buddha, hears a deep teaching directly from the Buddha that triggers his awakening. This is a case of ripe fruit falling from the branch when properly shaken. I do not see it as an evident example of dry-insight attainment. ... S: I tend to agree with Howard. In the long text that Kevin quoted, it referred to how Bahiya "attained arahantship together with the analytical knowledges". Now these "analytical knowledges" refer to the patisambhidas and are used in the context of the highest attainment of arahantship. Another unusual example was that of Culapantaka (Little Wayman) who couldn't remember anything his brother (an arahant) taught him, but eventually listened to the Buddha and became an arahant with the patisambhidas. When we read texts about the disappearance of the Teachings, I think they suggest that those with patisambhidas must have attained jhanas and were not sukkha vipassakas. For example, Nina translated from a Thai series and added comments on this topic: N:> The Commentary to the Sutta "The Gotamid", in the Gradual Sayings, the Manorathaparaa, gives an additional explanation: "The words vassasahassa", thousand years, that are used here, refer only to the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges (patisambidhas 2). But when we take into consideration the following thousand years, there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka (who only developed insight and did not attain jhaana). In the next period of thousand years (the third period) there are anagaamis (who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fourth period) there are sakadagamis (who have attained the second stage of enlightenment, the stage of the once-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fifth period) there are sotapannas (who have attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner). Thus, the saddhamma, the true dhamma, of the level of pativedha, realization, can, according to this reckoning, last for five thousand years. Evenso pariyatti dhamma (of the level of intellectual understanding) can endure for five thousand years. Without pariyatti dhamma there can be no pativedha dhamma 3. This means that when pariyatti dhamma has disappeared the monkhood will have changed into something else." **** S: Also, we can make the following distinctions of attainment as I quoted before. These quotes make it clear that there were arahants who were sukkhavipassika: >S: Vism XX1, 112: "According to governance by insight [vipassanaaniyamena], the path arisen in a bare-insight worker [sukkhavipassakassa], and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only....." The text here is differentiating here between ariyans who are sukkhavipassakas (who haven't previously attained jhana)and those who have previously attained jhanas (but the jhana is not the basis for enlightenment). In all these cases, the strength or absorption of the path is equivalent to first jhana and they are therefore referred to as 'paths of the first jhana (pa.thamajjhaanika)'. When jhana is the basis, enlightenment occurs at the degree of jhana just attained. **** Also, in this passage from the Vism, XX111,18, the text differentiates between arahants who are sukkhavipassakas and those who have attained jhanas. The former cannot attain nirodhasammapatti: Herein, i)"What is the attainment of cessation[nirodhasamaapatti]? Is is the non-occurrence of consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation. ii)Who attains it? iii)Who do not attain it? No ordinary men, no stream-enterers or once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bare-insight workers [sukkhavipassakaa ca anaagaami-arahanto] attain it. But both non-returners and those with cankers destroyed (Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight attainments attain it." ***** S: Finally, in the Udana commentary on Bahiya which I've quoted before, there is also a suggestion of prior attainments of jhana as I wrote in brief: >S:....We read in the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of being used to "wanting little, contentment and effacement" for a long time and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and therefore not experiencing defilements "as a result of abandoning in the form of suppression". I think that without a lot of commentary detail, as Howard suggests, we often cannot tell what kind of attainment it was. Metta Sarah ======= #115791 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta - was Satipatthana Sutta. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Kevin & all) - In a message dated 6/22/2011 3:37:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: I think that without a lot of commentary detail, ... we often cannot tell what kind of attainment it was. =============================== I think this is an essential point about commentaries: In any tradition, there are records of teachings that lack some key information preventing us from adequately understanding, and it is here that (especially early) commentaries are crucially important guides. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115792 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:56 pm Subject: Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Anyway, for the next 3 days, Mr Iyengar, (aged 93) personally taught and guided us in a physically strong yoga practice. People have different motivations, different philosophies, but for me it was an interesting mini-holiday, just like I might go with friends on a swimming, surfing or hiking holiday with instructions or maps. Having pracised this 'brand' of dynamic yoga for so very long, I'd always been curious to be in a class with the "Master" himself. Just wanted to say on-list how much I enjoyed your description of the trip. both here and in your off-list details. Quite an adventure! Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - #115793 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 20-jun-2011, om 2:59 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Should we keep doing bad things and entertaining akusala thoughts > > and feelings so that we will feel bad about ourselves and have > > weaker self-view? That does not make much sense, and would wind up > > with the proposition that more kusala - more akusala, and more > > akusala = more kusala.... > in fact almost everything that life has to offer other than reading > Abhidhamma commentaries, the only safe bet! -- seem to be pretty > akusala to me, telling us that when we feel better it is bad, when we > are calm we are really not calm, when we are happy we are really > going off the path, and when we do good things and positive > activities we are breeding hidden unwholesomeness. I really reject > that kind of an inverted view of the Dhamma and of life. > > ------ > > N: Well, you know that is not the idea of Dhamma study. As I said, do > all the things you are used to doing, and one should not feel guilty > about these or think that one has to avoid them for fear of > attachment to self. But more understanding won't hurt. Also, we can > find out that there is more akusala than we ever thought, but this is > not depressing. Better to know than not to know. But this does not > mean that one has to change one's life style. Just comprehend, > comprehend! This is not at all an excuse to give in to bad ways of > living. Perhaps it is hard to explain and understand what the Middle > Way is. Sorry about the rant, and what you say makes sense. I don't have any problem with the idea of more understanding and identifying the attachment during the activities of life. What I sometimes have a problem with is the idea that doing certain activities will in itself be akusala because they will promote self-view. But what you are saying above is a different message than that, and it makes sense. Best, Robert #115794 From: Kumara Bhikkhu Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:21 pm Subject: Hello from Malaysia venkumara As requested, here is little bit about me. I've been studying and practicing Buddhism, mainly the Theravada tradition, since the mid 90s. I've been a monk in the Theravada tradition for 12 years. Interested in ending suffering. I stumbled upon this group while researching on different kinds of samadhi. peace Kum?ra Bhikkhu S?san?rakkha Buddhist Sanctuary, Taiping, Malaysia www.sasanarakkha.org #115795 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:11 am Subject: Cosmic Goodness! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Buddha on Goodness: Train yourself in doing only pure good, Since that lasts and brings great happiness! Cultivate generosity, peaceful simple living, and a mentality of infinite friendliness... _/\_ Itivuttaka 16 Who is hospitable, open, straight and friendly, Generous, gentle and always unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a true leader, Such one will great honour gain... Digha Nikaya 31 For one who deliberately while fully attentive, Develops and expands Universal Friendliness, Experiencing the fading away of clinging, All his chains are worn down thereby! Itivuttaka 27 With good-will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate a limitless heart and mind: Beaming above, below, and all around, Unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipata I, 8 May all creatures, all breathing and living things, All beings, one and all, without any exception, Experience the good fortune of Happiness! May they not fall into any harm... Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam?hita _/\_ * <....> #115796 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >When the lute is plucked and the vibration arises, it arises out of a structure that is intact, a solid construction that is capable of playing that particular note in that vibration. I wonder what the equivalent structure is in the arising of a perfectly configured citta, with all the qualities and accumulations of the citta before it? > .... > S: Just as the sound of the lute depends on many different conditions, so the citta now depends on manifold conditions. > > Each citta is different and depends on different conditions. For example, seeing consciousness is a citta and the main condition for its arising is past kamma. There also have to be many other conditions, however, as support conditions. If we are talking about the citta rooted in attachment arising now, then the main condition is different. In this case the main condition is the natural decisive support condition, i.e. the accumulation of past attachment. Again, many, many other support conditions are necessary for the citta with attachment to arise now. So just as the sound of the lute depend on a complexity of factors (in conventional speech), so do the cittas now, in reality, depend on many different conditions to be just as they are. Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate this explanation. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - #115797 From: Vince Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina you wrote: > N: We all tend to forget, that is very common. Even forgetfulness is > conditioned, not my forgetfulness. > Lodewijk had an example of forgetfulness. Today, on the street he had > to pick up something and then lost his balance and fell down, could > not get up by himself. Three people helped him to get up. He said > that at that moment he did not think: there is no Lodewijk fallen > down on the street. He had an opportunity to appreciate the great > kindness of these people and one of them offered to take him home in > his car. hope he is well. Nice to see that people around him, that was a good kamma :) Yes, in such cases once can realize the worries for forgetfulness or other imperfections are the leaving of the present moment. And thinking in Dhamma can be another distraction. I agree. That's another persistent thing to manage. Vince. #115798 From: Kumara Bhikkhu Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:32 pm Subject: Culapanthaka - was Bahiya Sutta - was Satipatthana Sutta. venkumara sarah abbott wrote thus at 15:36 22/06/2011: >Now these "analytical knowledges" refer to the patisambhidas and are used in the context of the highest attainment of arahantship. Another unusual example was that of Culapantaka (Little Wayman) who couldn't >remember anything his brother (an arahant) taught him, but eventually >listened to the Buddha and became an arahant with the patisambhidas. More than that, according to the atthakatha (commentary). It also says that he became a Tipitakadhara (bearer of the Tipitaka), meaning to say he knows all of the 3 sets of scriptures. How can that happen is beyond me, as the Tipitaka hasn't yet been formed then. (It has been formed after the atthakatha was written though.) Furthermore, which set was it? The Pali Abhidhamma in particular is completely different from the Sarvastivada version. kb #115799 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Culapanthaka - was Bahiya Sutta - was Satipatthana Sutta. nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Kumara, Thank you for telling us about your life in Malaysia. Op 23-jun-2011, om 8:32 heeft Kumara Bhikkhu het volgende geschreven: > Another unusual example was that of Culapantaka (Little Wayman) who > couldn't > >remember anything his brother (an arahant) taught him, but eventually > >listened to the Buddha and became an arahant with the patisambhidas. > > More than that, according to the atthakatha (commentary). It also > says that he became a Tipitakadhara (bearer of the Tipitaka), > meaning to say he knows all of the 3 sets of scriptures. How can > that happen is beyond me, as the Tipitaka hasn't yet been formed > then. (It has been formed after the atthakatha was written though.) > Furthermore, which set was it? The Pali Abhidhamma in particular is > completely different from the Sarvastivada version. ------ N: I think that he was able to learn the Tipitaka by heart. This is not so strange, because when one understands something, one does not forget. The nucleus of the Abhidhamma was there, and Saariputta systematized it. The suttas, actually, are full of Abhidhamma teaching. The Buddha taught so often, also in the Suttas, about the paramattha dhammas like citta, cetasika and ruupa, appearing in our daily life. And that is Abhidhamma. With respect, Nina.