#117000 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:23 am Subject: Re: On the train and at the beef bowl place philofillet Thanks Ann I tend to find looking at proliferation to be the most feasible form of awareness. All very true in theory to say that life is one citta tgat arises and falls away, but I can actually be aware if proluferation as it happens. After that, there can be speculating about what kind of dhammas were involved, such as I did when speculating (as I became aware of the proliferation, I mean, not as I posted hours later) that there had been metta involved in my cognization of fellow grub shovellers. Not to say that I don't believe that there can be awareness of the characteristics of the actual dhammas, or nimittas thereof, to be more accurate. By the way, with Nina and Sarah away, I am missing my Dhamma Mommies terribly. Waaa! Waaaa! Wanna talk about nimitta? Did you find those notes? :) Metta, Phil #117001 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/26/2011 6:41:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > Hurricane Irene which will be impacting the U.S. East coast may well > make it's primary landfall late Sunday night directly on the part of Long > Island where we live, and at the time that happens it will be somewhere > between a powerful tropical storm and a category 1 hurricane, with sustained > wind speeds I estimate somewhere between 70 mph and 75 mph . You can see this > well on the U.S. national weather service map at > _http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/graphics_at4.shtml?5day?large#contents_ > (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/graphics_at4.shtml?5day?large#contents) > In a way, this will be an "adventure" though a bit more excitement > than I would hope for. ;-)) Hope things go well - I think you'll be hit harder than we will, as we are currently in D.C. but we'll keep breathing with awareness :-) ---------------------------------------------- ;-)) -------------------------------------------- and hope for the best. We're supposed to fly off to a week in Florida tomorrow morning so we'll see if we're cleared for liftoff! Good timing! :-) -------------------------------------------- Geez!! Well, tomorrow's weather won't get really bad till the end of day, and FL will already be just fine. So actually you seem to be threading the needle quite well! Have a good trip!! -------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ============================= With metta (See that! It's now a Dhamma post!! LOL!), Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117002 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/26/2011 6:53:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Good luck, Howard ---------------------------------- Thanks! :-) ---------------------------------- My typhoon related dosa is always that they tend to veer offcourse or weaken before hitting Tokyo, always disappointing because I am obsessed with getting any amount of paid time off work I can and love the powerful winds. Typhoons are (like everything else) entirely for me and my entertainment/ple asure. ------------------------------------ LOL! I love dramatic weather too! (Just not TOO dramatic. ;-) ------------------------------------ We have to recognize our defilements. There is probably more sincere concern on your part for the welll being of your neighbours etc. we all have different accumulations. ------------------------------------ I have no doubt that all of us here on DSG have concern for the welfare of others. Don't put yourself down, Phil! (Also, the Buddha, you may recall, said what the bard later formulated as "Comparisons are odious!") ------------------------------------ Metta, Phil ======================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117003 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > We're supposed to fly off to a week in Florida tomorrow morning so we'll > see if we're cleared for liftoff! Good timing! :-) > -------------------------------------------- > Geez!! Well, tomorrow's weather won't get really bad till the end of > day, and FL will already be just fine. So actually you seem to be threading > the needle quite well! Have a good trip!! > -------------------------------------------- Thanks, Howard. Yeah, if it works out we'll get out just in time. Flying from one part of samsara into another. :-) It's like a new-age guy once said: The trouble with vacations is that *you're* still there. ;-) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - #117004 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:55 pm Subject: Re: On the train and at the beef bowl place epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > By the way, with Nina and Sarah away, I am missing my Dhamma Mommies terribly. Waaa! Waaaa! Don't worry, your "Dhamma brothers and sisters" will be happy to fill you with misinformation while the Moms are away. ;-) Let's talk about the intentional development of bhavana by counting breaths and using new age relaxation techniques! ;-) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - #117005 From: Lukas Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:26 pm Subject: Letter to friend in need in prison szmicio Dear Nina, Sarah, Phil, Howard, Ken O and all Pls, write a letter to my friend. It can be introduction to theravda or practice or reminders on being a good person(Phil). He's really in need. I will be sending next letter to him in Monday so I can add yours,translated, Best wishes Lukas #117006 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Letter to friend in need in prison philofillet Hi Lukas Here is a quick note to encourage your friend, I wish I could compose something carefully, but this is off the top of my head. Dear Lukas, Don't be discouraged. You are young, and you have the very good fortune to be born human with a sensitivity to the Dhamma. That means you have done good deeds in past lives, that is a fact, the Buddha says so. The bad things you have done in this lifetime are like a drop of water in a bucket of water compared to the good things you have done in past lives. Of course you have also done bad things in past lifetimes, that is why you are getting hard vipaka now. But you are getting wiser and wiser by listening to Dhamma, so when you receive bad vipaka through the sense doors, you will be able to wisely remember that it is just the result of things that you have done, and it is natural to receive the results. But by receiving them wisely and not creating new bad kamma, you can pay off that bad deeds now. And paying that off by abstaining from the bad deed creates good kamma, and you will have more and more results of good kamma. Bad things will continue to happen, but you will be wiser and stronger in your response. The Buddha says that it is very rare to be born human, and to be healthy in body and mind, with the desire to do good. You have the desire to do good, don't you? That is rare. You are a blessed man. And so young. Keep listening to the Dhamma, you will be fine. Also, meditation has been very successful in helping prisoners in America and other countries. Meditation helps us to see our anger and other defilements arising, and helps us to respond more patiently. Many "Buddhist" meditation techniques taught today are not exactly the Buddha's teaching, but don't worry about that. If you find a meditation technique that gives you peace of mind and a base of tranquility, a mental island, you can watch your anger at a safe distance and understand better that it is not you, not yours, not your self. Having that detached distance from your anger is good, whether it is a truly Buddhist practice or not. True detachment and liberation as taught by the Buddha will probably take many lifetimes, but first things first. We have to come to understand our rising anger, and we have to learn how to respond wiser in situations that lead to anger, that has to come first. I used to have an explosive temper, in my 20s, 30s and early 40s. Now I am 50, and I haven't had a temper explosion for about 5 years. I think a combination of meditation I have done over the years (including various new age relaxation and visualisation techniques that are not the BUddha's teaching) has helped. But understanding Dhamma is best! I know I will have another explosion of anger in this life, it is natural, that tendency has been accumulated, and it will happen again. But I won't be upset or sad or scared when it happens, I will understand it. And I will know with confidence that the number of bad deeds I do is falling, falling, falling, close to disappearing, and the number of good things I do (especially abstaining from bad things) is rising. The kamma of the bad things is a drop of water compared to all the good things. You will be able to say that more and more and more, I am confident of it! Remember, it is very, very rare to be born in the human realm with a sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching. Incredibly rare. Treasure it! This human birth is a treasure, let us not waste as though we were stupid animals. We are not. Good luck! Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Nina, Sarah, Phil, Howard, Ken O and all > > Pls, write a letter to my friend. It can be introduction to theravda or practice or reminders on being a good person(Phil). He's really in need. I will be sending next letter to him in Monday so I can add yours,translated, > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > #117007 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) philofillet Hi Howard > We have to recognize our defilements. There is probably more sincere > concern on your part for the welll being of your neighbours etc. we all have > different accumulations. > ------------------------------------ > I have no doubt that all of us here on DSG have concern for the > welfare of others. Ph; Yes, there must be, or we wouldn't be here. But note the exact wording above, you have "more sincere concern". I meant that "more" to qualify "concern" rather than "sincere." I'm sure we agree that "concern for others" can only properly understood as a mental event, and judging from all your posts over the years expressing wishes of wellbeing to people, you have more of these events than I do. Well, who knows. I tend to get very metta-y when I am actually with people and am less likely to feel concern of plight that I read about, even the plight of friends here. Bah, whatever, as you say these kind of comparisons are not terribly helpful. But only the arahant eliminates mana, if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure we all make comparisons, I'm just more explicit and insistent about it. Don't worry, I have a really high sense of self-esteem these days, a Dhamma rooted one. Metta, Phil #117008 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:37 pm Subject: Re: On the train and at the beef bowl place philofillet @Hi Rob E > > Don't worry, your "Dhamma brothers and sisters" will be happy to fill you with misinformation while the Moms are away. ;-) Ph: Hmm, you are a great fellow, I can tell, but I'm afraid you cannot be the kind of Dhamma Mommy I need these days. I think Jon could. He can give the kind of Abhidhammilk I want these days. Rob K's mental breasts are also bursting with Abhidhammilk, hope they begin spouting again someday! Oh man, I should erase that image, but no... > Let's talk about the intentional development of bhavana by counting breaths and using new age relaxation techniques! ;-) > Ph: I am crazy about my meditation these days, going past an hour every morning, easily, but I think it is a kind of breath yoga, involving ki or chi or prahna or whatever. I have an awful lot of energy these days, despite the hot weather. I will ask you about that offlist one of these days, it fascinates me. But the technique I use is not inclduded in the instructions found in Vism, so I don't consider it to be the Buddha's teaching or really being explicitly related to Dhamma. (It does provide conditions for being more resilient and less responsive to aksuala vipaka, though, so that is relevant indeed...) Metta, Phil #117009 From: "Michael" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:41 am Subject: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi mdrickicki Hello Everyone, My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! Mike #117010 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:06 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) dhammasaro Howdy, Yes, I well remember the recent flooding. It covered an area larger than Texas. My Texas Buddhist friends of many ethnic backgrounds (of the diverse Buddhist Traditions/Schools/Sects/New religions) meditated for the relief and comfort of all affected. Also, most of us were able to donate moneys to the Red Cross and other charity organizations for clothing, food, et cetera. peace... metta (maitre) Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: upasaka@... Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:36:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) Hi, Chris - In a message dated 8/26/2011 5:03:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cjforsyth1@... writes: Hello Howard, My thoughts are with you all. -------------------------------------------- Thanks! :-) -------------------------------------- Brisbane had severe floods (as did much of our east coast) in January this year, and many people are still not in their houses yet (insurance companies ducking and weaving). ------------------------------------------ I paid some attention to that flooding. Unbelievable!! ------------------------------------------ Most injuries and deaths were of those who did not heed the warnings of authorities to leave and find a safe place elsewhere. They thought they'd stick it out. Please don't do that if you are advised to leave. -------------------------------------------- Thanks. We are unlikely to be asked to evacuate inasmuch as we are centrally located and away from the ocean (to the South) and also away from the Long Island Sound (to the North). -------------------------------------------- Mahametta and my thoughts are with you all. Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --- ============================= I appreciate your writing, Chris! :-) With metta, Howard #117011 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:07 am Subject: We are 1 Biig Family! bhikkhu5 Friends: Kinship with All: Be Gentle and Kind towards your Family! The Blessed Buddha once said: It is not easy, Bhikkhus & Friends, to find even a single living being that during this immensely long round of rebirths has not at least 10 times been your mother, father, brother, sister, son, or daughter! How is this possible? Inconceivable, Bhikkhus and Friends, is the beginning of this Samsaric round; not to be discovered is the ultimate first beginning of individual beings who, blinded by ignorance and all obsessed by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths! The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book SN 15:14-19 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * #117012 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:44 am Subject: 1 Moment :-) bhikkhu5 1 Moment Meditation :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtWl7wYQecU Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * #117013 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:29 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) dhammasaro Howdy, Please forgive my omission. Of late, Japan's recent extreme calamities are on our meditations and monetary donations as well. We are a very diverse informal Buddhist group in Texas. May you, yours, and all in Japan have excellent health,mental and physical well-being, and continued prosperity. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: upasaka@... Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:41:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/26/2011 6:53:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Good luck, Howard ---------------------------------- Thanks! :-) ---------------------------------- My typhoon related dosa is always that they tend to veer offcourse or weaken before hitting Tokyo, always disappointing because I am obsessed with getting any amount of paid time off work I can and love the powerful winds. Typhoons are (like everything else) entirely for me and my entertainment/ple asure. ------------------------------------ LOL! I love dramatic weather too! (Just not TOO dramatic. ;-) ------------------------------------ We have to recognize our defilements. There is probably more sincere concern on your part for the welll being of your neighbours etc. we all have different accumulations. ------------------------------------ I have no doubt that all of us here on DSG have concern for the welfare of others. Don't put yourself down, Phil! (Also, the Buddha, you may recall, said what the bard later formulated as "Comparisons are odious!") ------------------------------------ Metta, Phil ======================== With metta, Howard #117014 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:35 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (116943) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: It is not a matter of whether an interpretation is a 'logical conclusion', but whether it is fully consistent with both the suttas and the Abhidhamma. > > [RE:] I think there is a problem there, because I have found a number of inconsistencies in my limited experience with the commentaries between their interpretation and the obvious meaning of the suttas. =============== J: The difference you describe here -- between the commentarial interpretation and the "obvious meaning" -- does not constitute an inconsistency, merely an explanation that differs from the one that seems obvious to you. So the commentarial interpretation differs from your own preferred interpretation :-)) =============== [RE:] Your solution to such seeming inconsistencies appears to be to grant interpretive power to the commentaries and give them the benefit of the doubt that their interpretation is the correct one, even when they seem to either go directly against what the sutta says, or to veer away from the subject matter of the sutta and say it was about something else. =============== J: I'd be interested to see an example of what you mean by a commentarial interpretation that goes directly against what the sutta says (what you may in fact be referring to is a commentarial interpretation that goes directly against your own). =============== > [RE:] The Abhidhamma and the sutta pitaka also do not seem fully consistent, again from my limited exposure, either in emphasis or in some ways in the substance of what they say. When the Buddha says "strive with all your might" or something to that effect, your view of the Abhidhamma's standpoint on this is to say that it does not really mean that, but rather means to attend the arising of momentary dhammas, and that volition is an arising dhamma not something to be exercised as the Buddha's words would seem to indicate. =============== J: Well it all comes down to what the Buddha actually says. If you're referring to the 4 right efforts, the Buddha's words are "he strives" etc. And of course, context is all important. As regards volition, it indeed is an arising dhamma, but that still leaves open the question of the sense in which the Buddha makes reference to striving, etc. The commentarial view is that Right Effort is an arising mental factor. That interpretation of the Buddha's words is consistent with the Tipitaka (including the teaching on not-self). =============== > > J: As far as I know, the interpretation we are discussing was in fact the generally accepted and understood interpretation of the teachings within the Theravada community from the time of the Buddha until some time after the Abhidhammatta Sangaha. > > [RE:] I would be very interested to know what "as far as I know" is based on here. Not meaning any disrespect to you, but it doesn't give me any reassurance that this was the view without some understanding of what this is based on. What scriptures or writings give the information that this was the generally accepted view of the Dhamma, and if so, why does the Buddha talk in such different terms than the "generally accepted view?" You would think that he would speak to that view and express that view if that were the case. =============== J: It comes down to the fact that the same interpretation appears in the commentarial works over a period of several centuries, and that the alternative view that you favour does not appear until the late 19th centry or thereabouts. =============== > [RE:] As far as I can tell by looking at examples of the actual writings as they are presented to me here and elsewhere, they express two different views of the path, one in which the Buddha says to "strive" and exercise volition in a purposeful way, and in which the Buddha describes in enthusiastic detail how to develop jhana and mindfulness through concerted effort and practice, ... =============== J: Pausing there, I think when you talk about suttas "in which the Buddha says to "strive" and exercise volition in a purposeful way, and in which the Buddha describes in enthusiastic detail how to develop jhana and mindfulness through concerted effort and practice", you are in fact referring to suttas where the Buddha is describing the development of the path in its final stages by monks who are already highly developed in samatha and vipassana. In other words, they are not statements of doctrine on the role of samatha/jhana in the development of awareness/insight. =============== [RE:] ... and another view that is completely divorced from that language, and which describes a single-citta universe in which the path happens by itself. =============== J: I see it as a world of dhammas (dhammas are arising now but are not seen as such) in which the path is developed by conditions, the most important of which are past accumulations and hearing the dhamma well explained (in the sense of explained in a way that helps one to understand it better). =============== [RE:] I don't see anything much in common between those two views of the path, other than the fact that they share the same important units of experience. But their view of volition and practice is completely different. =============== J: Here you refer of course to your view of what the suttas say and the commentarial interpretation :-)) Jon #117015 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:39 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Alex (116920) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Jon, all, > > >J:There are numerous instances in the suttas of persons attaining >enlightenment with no reference to the prior attainment of jhana and >in circumstances where it would seem that prior jhana played no role. > >=================================================================== > > [A:] Suttas are limited in what the can describe. If everything a person did in one life would be written, it would be a huge book. Nothing to say about multiple lifetimes! > > The suttas can avoid mentioning obvious things, such as that that monk had a mother and a father, that that monk needed to regularly go to the washroom, etc etc. Omission does NOT mean lack of something happening. =============== J: I agree with the main thrust of what you say. But as I said in my earlier post there are cases where it seems that prior jhana played no role. To assume that it must have would be to speculate. =============== > [A:] Now if there was a consistently used unambiguous phrase that mundane Jhanas are not required for anyone, then we could accept this thesis. =============== J: Well there are many aspects of the teachings that to us, in this day and age, are not crystal clear. But we must keep in mind that it was all very clear to those who were ready for enlightenment (and who had been chosen to be a recipient of the Buddha's teaching because of that advanced state of development). Jon #117016 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:52 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (116943) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... =============== > > SUMMARY FROM VIBHANGA > > Ch 4 Analysis Of Truth > > Summary from par. 206 > > - Right view is wisdom, understanding > > - right thought is mentation, thinking > > - right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc. the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively > > - right effort is the arousing of mental energy > > - right mindfulness is mindfulness > > - right concentration is stability of consciousness, steadfastness > > [RE:] Of course none of the above is wrong, but the Abhidhamma seems to purposely leave out all of the path elements that would take place "in the world" rather than in the mind. ... So I conclude that there is a conscious effort throughout aspects of the Abhidhamma and certainly in parts of the commentarial body, to turn the path into a purely mental endeavor that arises spontaneously, but this does not represent the full original method of the Buddha. It is a transformation of the Theravadin view of the path, and in that sense, again, is not traditional. =============== J: The Theravadin community has, until recent times, been unified in it's interpretation of the teachings. It was the same group of monks that studied, taught and preserved the suttas, the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. =============== > > "76. Briefly, when a meditator is progressing towards the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance. ... > > [RE:] I wonder what you make of the use of the word "meditator" in the above, implying that he who is able to achieve understanding with nibbana as object has been *meditating* to reach that attainment? =============== J: I wonder what you make of the passage "his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view", implying that the path factor of right view is the actual understanding and not a kind of practice undertaken in order to create conditions for understanding to arise. (As regards the translator's use of "meditator", that is possibly a translation of the Pali yogin. I don't think the Pali carries any implication as to the nature of the person's 'practice'.) =============== > > "81. When he is established on that plane of virtue called right speech, right action, and right livelihood, his energy, which is in conformity and associated with that right view, cuts off idleness, and that is called right effort. It has the characteristic of exerting. Its function is the non-arousing of unprofitable things, and so on. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong effort." > > [RE:] Right Effort does not just involve the cutting off or abandonment of wrong effort, but also cultivation and preservation of positive skillful states, =============== J: Yes, and all 4 functions are included in the quoted passage (see the words "and so on"). I wonder what you make of the passage: "his energy, which is in conformity and associated with that right view, cuts off idleness, and that is called right effort", implying that the path factor is the moment at which there is no akusala, and not a kind of practice in which a person tries not to have akusala. =============== > [RE:] He goes on more clearly in the imperative: > ""Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" > > How many times does the Buddha have to speak in the positive imperative mode to make it clear that he wants us to exert effort and persistence to purposively develop these qualities? =============== J: I agree that is an exhortation for the development of kusala, but there is no mention of deliberate, purposeful effort. The emphasis of the passage is on the fact that the development of kusala is possible. =============== > > "82. When he exerts himself thus, the non-forgetfulness in his mind, which is associated with that right view, shakes off wrong mindfulness, and that is called right mindfulness. It has the characteristic of establishing. Its function is not to forget. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong mindfulness. > > [RE:] This emphasis on abandoning akusala being the equivalent of developing kusala, which seems to take volition almost all the way out of the picture except as another arising factor, only represents half of Buddha's admonitions on the path factors. ... He also says to directly strive to develop the positive path factors, and not only to abandon the negative factors, so I think we see here in the Vism as well as in commentary, the re-emphasizing of one side of the path as espoused by the Buddha ... =============== J: While I don't agree with this characterisation of the interpretation given by the commentaries, I agree that it is, as you say, a matter of emphasis. Again, it seems to come down to the fact that your preferred reading does not coincide with that of the commentators. =============== > > "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has the characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." … > > ********************************** > > > > The above seems to be a description of mental factors. > > [RE:] Certainly Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration are mental factors, and not part of baling hay or socializing with relatives. But they are the fruits of practice in the Buddha's speech and thus have an active element of practice in-the-world, which these descriptions leave out. =============== J: Please note that in the case of each of right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration it is said that they are "associated with that right view". This implies, I believe, that they are the mental factors of that description that arise together with a moment of right view. =============== > > J: To my understanding, the commentaries are an intrinsic part of the Theravadin tradition, so much so that in fact it is the authors of the commentaries who are the 'Theras' from which the tradition takes its name. > > [RE:] Well if the commentaries are written by the very Theras after whom the Theravadin tradition is named, then we are left with the question of what their relationship is to the original teachings of the Buddha, and that is certainly a useful, dynamic question which I'm sure has quite a bit of complexity in the answer. ... Therefore, rather than seeing the Theravadin tradition as a conglomerated whole with the commentaries giving the final word on what the suttas really mean, I think it is useful to see how the two groups of scriptures reconcile, rather than assuming that they do. =============== J: As I mentioned above, there were no 'two groups of scriptures' as far as the Theravadin community was concerned. Jon #117017 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > Howdy, > > Please forgive my omission. > Hi Chuck Thank you for your kind thoughts towards Japan. Metta Phil --Of late, Japan's recent extreme calamities are on our meditations and monetary donations as well. We are a very diverse informal Buddhist group in Texas. > > May you, yours, and all in Japan have excellent health,mental and physical well-being, and continued prosperity. > > peace... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > > ------------------------------------ > Metta, > Phil > ======================== > With metta, > Howard > #117018 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:45 pm Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi philofillet Hi Mike Welcome to DSG. You can find out a lot about brahma-viharas here, but the emphasis is on understanding the characteristics of the dhammas involved rather than intentional practice, though some of us do "do" metta etc. You are probably familiar with it, but a small Yahoo Group called Buddha-Viharas has an archive full of quotes and links to B.V related teachings, highly recommended, though, again, studying the dhammas involved as we do at DSG might be the way to lead to more arising of them in their unadulterated-by-wanting-them-too-much -too-soon form. In the Files section, check Brahma Viharas in the Useful Posts section and try reading a few posts, see if it is your cup of tea... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > Mike > #117019 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/27/2011 1:50:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > We're supposed to fly off to a week in Florida tomorrow morning so we'll > see if we're cleared for liftoff! Good timing! :-) > -------------------------------------------- > Geez!! Well, tomorrow's weather won't get really bad till the end of > day, and FL will already be just fine. So actually you seem to be threading > the needle quite well! Have a good trip!! > -------------------------------------------- Thanks, Howard. Yeah, if it works out we'll get out just in time. Flying from one part of samsara into another. :-) ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Samsara is wherever "we" are! ------------------------------------------------ It's like a new-age guy once said: The trouble with vacations is that *you're* still there. ;-) ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Ahh! I wrote my last sentence too quickly! LOL! --------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117020 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to friend in need in prison upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 8/27/2011 3:27:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Nina, Sarah, Phil, Howard, Ken O and all Pls, write a letter to my friend. It can be introduction to theravda or practice or reminders on being a good person(Phil). He's really in need. I will be sending next letter to him in Monday so I can add yours,translated, Best wishes Lukas ==================================== If you would like, you might add the following from me: ____________________________________ Dear - - - - - - : At times, the conditions that beset us seem too much to take. But there are surprising fonts of strength within us we can draw upon. Contentment comes not from external freedom or other external conditions that are pleasant, but from a mind that is calm, clear, and free. It may seem that we have a fixed nature, and inherently damaged. But the great teacher whom we call "the Buddha" denied this. He taught that the mind is inherently luminous, and that any darkness there is adventitious and can be removed so that the wisdom and peace that is our true nature can shine forth. I have implicit belief in this! My own study and practice has pointed to this as a reality. So, bear up, my friend. Peace, joy, and wisdom is our heritage. All the best, Howard _________________________________ I do hope this may be of some help. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117021 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/27/2011 5:22:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Don't worry, I have a really high sense of self-esteem these days, a Dhamma rooted one. ============================== How very nice to read! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117022 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introductions - Khalil Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Mike - In a message dated 8/27/2011 6:35:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdrickicki@... writes: Hello Everyone, My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! Mike ============================== An American, Theravadin monk by the name of Bhante Vimalaramsi puts much emphasis in his teaching around metta bhavana. You might consider checking out the site _http://www.dhammasukha.org/_ (http://www.dhammasukha.org/) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117023 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:17 am Subject: Re: Letter to friend in need in prison philofillet Hi again Lukas I re-read my letter to your friend. Please remove "good luck" when you translate it to your friend, it's not luck, it's in our hands. metta, phil #117024 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:35 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > Mike > Hello Mike, Nice to see you here. Hope these links are of assistance: Audio of Full Retreat taught by Ajahn Sujato at Jhana Grove focusing on Metta (Loving Kindness) Meditation http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/itemlist/category/62-june-2011.html Metta http://www.wildmind.org/metta The Practice of Metta http://amaravati.org/abmtrial/documents/cittavivaka/data/12practice.html An Exposition of the Metta Sutta http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Metta/metta.html Gil Fronsdal Loving Kindness (Metta) http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1728/ An Overview of Loving-Kindness Meditation http://www.buddhanet.net/metta_in.htm with metta Chris #117025 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:36 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, > Hi Alex > > (116920) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Jon, all, > > > > >J:There are numerous instances in the suttas of persons attaining >enlightenment with no reference to the prior attainment of jhana and >in circumstances where it would seem that prior jhana played no role. > > >=================================================================== > > > > [A:] Suttas are limited in what the can describe. If everything a person did in one life would be written, it would be a huge book. Nothing to say about multiple lifetimes! > > > > The suttas can avoid mentioning obvious things, such as that that monk had a mother and a father, that that monk needed to regularly go to the washroom, etc etc. Omission does NOT mean lack of something happening. > =============== > > J: I agree with the main thrust of what you say. But as I said in >my earlier post there are cases where it seems that prior jhana >played no role. To assume that it must have would be to speculate. >============================================================= Maybe it is speculation that they didn't have prior Jhana. Do you have clear and unambigious general statements in the suttas where the Buddha allows for N7P (Noble Sevenfold path)? With best wishes, Alex #117026 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:11 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi kenhowardau Hi Mike, Welcome to DSG. The Brahama viharas are good, but the Buddha's teaching is infinitely better. I hope you will stick around to learn more about it. A good starting place is the here and now. Do you know the realities of the present moment? Is there a self that will continue on and experience future realities? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > Mike > #117027 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:33 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi philofillet Hi Ken H > Welcome to DSG. The Brahama viharas are good, but the Buddha's teaching is infinitely better. I hope you will stick around to learn more about it. Ph: A quick challenge to your latest overstatement. There can be questioning of modern corruptions such as, for exampke, the idea that people receive radiated metta etc, but are you seriously suggesting the Buddha didn't teach brahma-viharas?That's going (as usual) way too far. Metta, Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > > > Mike > > > #117028 From: "Michael" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:31 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi mdrickicki Hi Phil, Thanks for your reply and for helping me to orient myself. It seems like the group would be the perfect place to discuss the the more or less theoretical aspects of metta bhavana as it relates to the ultimate goal of the path--release from conditioned existence. Thank you again and I hope to speak with you more in the future. Mettaya! Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Mike > > > Welcome to DSG. > > You can find out a lot about brahma-viharas here, but the emphasis is on understanding the characteristics of the dhammas involved rather than intentional practice, though some of us do "do" metta etc. > > You are probably familiar with it, but a small Yahoo Group called Buddha-Viharas has an archive full of quotes and links to B.V related teachings, highly recommended, though, again, studying the dhammas involved as we do at DSG might be the way to lead to more arising of them in their unadulterated-by-wanting-them-too-much -too-soon form. In the Files section, check Brahma Viharas in the Useful Posts section and try reading a few posts, see if it is your cup of tea... > > Metta, > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > > > Mike > > > #117029 From: "Michael" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:54 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi mdrickicki Chris, Thanks so much for the links. As always, you are a veritable treasure trove of information! I look forward to partaking in the discussions here as well! Sukhi hotu! Best, Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > > > Mike > > > Hello Mike, > > Nice to see you here. Hope these links are of assistance: > > Audio of Full Retreat taught by Ajahn Sujato at Jhana Grove focusing on Metta (Loving Kindness) Meditation > http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/itemlist/category/62-june-2011.html > > Metta > http://www.wildmind.org/metta > > The Practice of Metta > http://amaravati.org/abmtrial/documents/cittavivaka/data/12practice.html > > An Exposition of the Metta Sutta > http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Metta/metta.html > > Gil Fronsdal Loving Kindness (Metta) > http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1728/ > > An Overview of Loving-Kindness Meditation > http://www.buddhanet.net/metta_in.htm > > with metta > Chris > #117030 From: "Michael" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:29 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi mdrickicki Hi Howard, Thanks for the link to Bhante V. I have actually used his method to good result. Have you had any experience with his teachings? Mettay! Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Mike - > > In a message dated 8/27/2011 6:35:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > mdrickicki@... writes: > > Hello Everyone, > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it > happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the > Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the > cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on > effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be > appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > Mike > ============================== > An American, Theravadin monk by the name of Bhante Vimalaramsi puts > much emphasis in his teaching around metta bhavana. You might consider > checking out the site _http://www.dhammasukha.org/_ (http://www.dhammasukha.org/) > > With metta, > Howard > > > Seamless Interdependence > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > > > #117031 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:14 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi jonoabb Hi Mike Welcome from me. I should ignore the implication behind the fact that a number of members have hastened to give you links to other websites ;-)). This is a great place to learn more about metta and indeed all forms of kusala (an not just the theoretical basis). Looking forward to having you join the discussions. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > Mike > #117032 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:33 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi philofillet Hi Mike I sonetimes use the word "theoretical" as well but we should be careful since it can imply that something cannot be confirmed in reality, which is certainly not the case with the characteristics of a moment of metta arising due to conditions rather than intentional practice (which in itself could create conditions for the arising of metta as long as we remember that practices rooted in desire for fast results are unlikely to give rise to the kusala dhammas such as metta.) Maybe the word "theory" to translate pariyatti is better because it does not imply (at least not to me) that the intellectual understanding of the teaching will not/ cannot be confimed as reality. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > Thanks for your reply and for helping me to orient myself. It seems like the group would be the perfect place to discuss the the more or less theoretical aspects of metta bhavana as it relates to the ultimate goal of the path--release from conditioned existence. Thank you again and I hope to speak with you more in the future. Mettaya! > > Mike > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mike > > > > > > Welcome to DSG. > > > > You can find out a lot about brahma-viharas here, but the emphasis is on understanding the characteristics of the dhammas involved rather than intentional practice, though some of us do "do" metta etc. > > > > You are probably familiar with it, but a small Yahoo Group called Buddha-Viharas has an archive full of quotes and links to B.V related teachings, highly recommended, though, again, studying the dhammas involved as we do at DSG might be the way to lead to more arising of them in their unadulterated-by-wanting-them-too-much -too-soon form. In the Files section, check Brahma Viharas in the Useful Posts section and try reading a few posts, see if it is your cup of tea... > > > > Metta, > > > > Phil > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > #117033 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:07 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi philofillet Hi again Mike I see on re-reading that you used "more or less" theoretical cuz you referred to ultimate release, that makes more sense. But Abhidhamma's teaching is no more or less about ultimate release than the suttanta is, the dhamma of metta and it's characteristics can be experienced here and now, if the dhamma arises, and I think it does quite often, especially relative to karuna, for example, which is more rarefied since it cab't be accompanied by any unpleasant mental feeling, such as sadness, throwing the conventional understanding of compassion (suffering with) out the window. Anyways, I suspect you will soon witness first hand what the topuc of intentional practice leads to at DSG. BTW, I like the way you include mettaya in the text of your message rather than in the sign-off. Mettaya! Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Mike > > I sonetimes use the word "theoretical" as well but we should be careful since it can imply that something cannot be confirmed in reality, which is certainly not the case with the characteristics of a moment of metta arising due to conditions rather than intentional practice (which in itself could create conditions for the arising of metta as long as we remember that practices rooted in desire for fast results are unlikely to give rise to the kusala dhammas such as metta.) Maybe the word "theory" to translate pariyatti is better because it does not imply (at least not to me) that the intellectual understanding of the teaching will not/ cannot be confimed as reality. > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > Thanks for your reply and for helping me to orient myself. It seems like the group would be the perfect place to discuss the the more or less theoretical aspects of metta bhavana as it relates to the ultimate goal of the path--release from conditioned existence. Thank you again and I hope to speak with you more in the future. Mettaya! > > > > Mike > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike > > > > > > > > > Welcome to DSG. > > > > > > You can find out a lot about brahma-viharas here, but the emphasis is on understanding the characteristics of the dhammas involved rather than intentional practice, though some of us do "do" metta etc. > > > > > > You are probably familiar with it, but a small Yahoo Group called Buddha-Viharas has an archive full of quotes and links to B.V related teachings, highly recommended, though, again, studying the dhammas involved as we do at DSG might be the way to lead to more arising of them in their unadulterated-by-wanting-them-too-much -too-soon form. In the Files section, check Brahma Viharas in the Useful Posts section and try reading a few posts, see if it is your cup of tea... > > > > > > Metta, > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > > > > > My name is Mike but I go by the name Khalil Bodhi on several fora (it happens to be my son's name). I have been a practicing Buddhist mainly in the Theravada for about 6 years and have been primarily concerned with the cultivation of the brahma viharas. I was hoping to elicit some advice on effective techniques for cultivating metta and karuna so any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for this group and be well. Sukhitaa hontu! > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > #117034 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:34 am Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) ptaus1 Hi RobE, Taking the points where we differ: > RE: There are problems with using terms like understanding. My concern is for where the understanding takes place. The abstraction of citta taking nibbana as object - very technical - does very little to clarify what kind of understanding really represents enlightenment, and what kinds of experiential moments really represent the path. The technicalities of many of the discussions, like it or not, are far removed from anything we experience. We might as well say 'we experience molecules of mercury' for all it means experientially. When you have a technical understanding of the path and enlightenment it tends to be intellectual because it doesn't really live anywhere else. ... I don't personally see a whole lot in common with that description and what often constitutes the more technical discussions around here. I'm not against those technicalities, but saying that panna arises with thus and such cetasikas doesn't seem to me to do much of anything beyond continuously increased intellectual clarity on how such moments are supposed to work on paper. pt: Perhaps what you describe is in fact the difference between purely intellectual understanding and understanding of pariyatti sort. When pariyatti happens, then the technical/intellectual bit makes sense on a practical level. I remember when the whole anatta deal all of a sudden clicked for me on a practical level, and all the technicality suddenly as if got a third dimension - before that abhidhamma and buddhism as a whole seemed like one long algebra equation. > RE: That makes sense, but what is going to cause panna to arise, as we continue to discuss issues of technical understanding and technical clarity? pt: As I remember the explanation, the direct condition for panna arising now is accumulations (so previous panna), while indirect condition for panna is hearing and considering Dhamma (whether right now or at some point earlier). As I remember discussing this recently with Sarah and Jon, hearing Dhamma has to do with rupa (audible) sense-door process, which is heard thanks to previous kusala kamma (so its vipaka), whereas considering and understanding Dhamma happens in the following mind-door processes, specifically in javana cittas of these processes which may be accompanied by panna that arises thanks to previous accumulations (of panna). This explains for example why it's possible to hear Dhamma but not understand it or even hate it - there's no panna arising in the javana cittas of the mind-door processes that consider what was heard. > RE: Do you think it will arise because of the understanding of these discussions? And if not, what's going to bring panna into the equation? pt: I hope the explanation above covers these questions. > RE: That is good, and it comes back to practice again. I don't see sati, panna and vipassana arising by only dwelling in the descriptions given by the scriptures. If that description is applied to everyday life, and applied in a specialized way in meditation, rather than waiting for moments to come somehow from just reading and considering, then I see those practices developing the path. pt: The last sentence is a loaded statement. Firstly: "If that description is applied to everyday life," - I think the application happens on its own, i.e. the effort is automatic, there's no need for some additional purposeful effort. To give an analogy, say you just learned that a road sign with 60 on it means that's the top speed (ala that anger is akusala). From then on, every time you see the speed sign (you notice the anger), you'll automatically know what it is (top speed - or anger is akusala). If you're actually seeing it that is. If you're not, (like because of talking to a passenger), then you won't notice the speed limit (or that dosa is akusala). Secondly, "and applied in a specialized way in meditation," - that's a discussion on its own, perhaps later. Thirdly, "rather than waiting for moments to come somehow from just reading and considering," - that's a misunderstanding (ok, actually it's a strawman), because, as mentioned imo, from the moment you learn something, the application becomes automatic, while the depth of the automatic application depends on how well you learned it initially (so accumulated panna in terms of understanding Dhamma). Further, you seem to imply some sort of "purposeful" waiting for the moments to come, which is sort of absurd. > RE: Right, I'm normally talking about meditation as it is ordinarily understood - taking time to purposely consider and develop the understanding of the arising moments, using either breath or another object as the object of the meditation. pt: If I remember right, someone mentioned that this "ordinarily understood" meditation is actually a fairly recent occurrence in Theravada, coming into mainstream with a few Burmese and Thai monks at the end of the 19th century, if I'm not mistaken, and in particular when it comes to vipassana medtiation - geared towards increasing insight. As for samatha meditation purely, that's been going on for many millenia, so no need to discuss imo, as it's not strictly buddhism. > RE: Such meditation involves a certain degree of concentration and intention, and then continues to focus on arising moments and their nature as they arise. pt: well, everything involves a certain degree of concentration and intention. These are cetasikas that arise with every citta. the real issue imo is whether these are wholesome or not, and how does one know they are indeed wholesome or not. Knowing that in the present moment is in fact what I'd call "meditation". > RE: Every adherent to meditation practice also agrees with the understanding of moments arising in everyday life and that moments of insight can occur at any time, and cannot be controlled. pt: Are you sure? I was fully into trying to make this or that mental state arise. In fact I think I'm still trying to control my mental states most of the time whether in or out of meditation. > RE: This idea of meditation equaling an attempt to control the moments that arise or to force panna to arise is a very popular strawman, speaking of strawmen. pt: Again, my conclusion is different, becuase i've seen the same happening in my "meditation" as well as daily life. Pretty much every moment when I want something else other than what's presently there, that's lobha in 99.9% of the cases (there can be chanda, as in kusala wish, but that's very rare). This particularly applies to moments when meditating and basically being after more sati, concentration, panna, etc. The really dangerous problem with this is that one then takes what's not path (lobha) for path (panna), and thus mixes up akusala and kusala, and thus ends up with a wrong view, all the while being convinced one's doing exactly what the Buddha said. > RE: The difference is that there is also a regular practice and this tends to lead to a more regular course of development. pt: Are you sure? At least that's the question I kept asking myself, and came to a different conclusion than you. > > pt: so, the question is then whether what you call "meditation" relates to an arising of a kusala citta, or does it relates to something else? if to something else, then what, and how does that relate to kusala citta? etc. > > RE: It relates to the extent that such moments arise in the course of the practice, but the practice itself is indeed a regimen that is given to allow more regular development of such qualities. pt: Again, my conclusion is different. I experimented a fair bit, like stopping with all forms of meditation completely for 6 months, or at other time meditating rigorously for 6 months, etc, and noticed no change in the pace of development, regardless of the combination that the "regimen" had. > RE: This group is the only place I have encountered in the world of Buddhism that seems to believe that this is a bad thing, and will not lead to further bhavana, because of the special view here that any purposeful intentional effort is doomed to promote further self-view, and lead to false akusala moments, which I just don't agree with. I also see no basis for this view in anything I have read. pt: I think this is not exactly so. According to this group, as I understand them, the problem is not what you call "meditation" because that's just another descriptor for an activity, which doesn't really have much to do with cittas and other dhammas. The issue is not either whether the effort is intentional and purposeful, because all cittas have intention. The problem is simply whether there's panna or not at any given moment, including those moments that would fall within what you call "meditation". If there's no panna for most of the time, then what is there instead? So we are warned that there might be lobha mistaken for panna, that there might be ignorance mistaken for calm, etc. And then a further problem that if one takes akusala for kusala, that's in fact a moment of wrong view, etc. So, all these are warnings that hopefully encourage panna to arise at some point. Further, i find the warnings are generally correct in practical terms and that I often make the mistakes that they warn against. So, it's basically a matter of encouraging panna in practical terms, rather than trying to put across a new and improved theoretical interpretation of Dhamma. > > pt: ...it feels very nice, relaxing and very happy, so a bit like a favorite pass time, though very time-consuming and possibly dangerous if your health is not very good (i'm not even getting into the whole wrong view thing here, i'm just referring to bad health in terms of the body, the energy channels and whatnot). > > RE: How is it dangerous for health to have a period of time of stillness and relaxation, if that is all that it is? As far as energy channels go, if you are not doing anything forceful, what would be negative about such a pastime? pt: well, once the regular session starts exceeding two-three hours, strange things begin to happen, though usually after the session because the session usually feels really great. for me the problems generally have to do with the energy channels about which i know very little, which then result in strange health problems. E.g. i'd go without any sense of balance for some time, which makes it very hard to do anything, including walking. Also headaches the size of Jupiter, that incapacitate you from doing anything including work, study, etc. Then you go to the (Western) doctor and do all sorts of tests, but they can't find anything wrong with you, because it's all on the energy level I assume. And the last thing you suspect is the meditation practice, because it feels so great, and well, the Buddha is supposed to have advised it. And then of course, there are people who actually go marginally or completely insane and never come back to normality. And then there are those who are affected only to a degree, but strongly enough to drop out of school, university, work, etc. Basically, my conclusion is that being a serious meditator is dangerous, especially for laity that has little access to teachers that could spot potential problem due to misunderstanding or predispositions. > RE: I hear what the Buddha said in the anapanasati and satipatthana sutta and I don't see those instructions as applying only to the very advanced, and dangerous for others. pt: Leaving aside the whole health issue, and just focusing on right and wrong view, my conclusion is different. During a standard meditation, for me about 80% of the time would be hindrances, so akusala. About 19% would be moments that I think are kusala, but are in fact nothing more than lobha. The remaining 1% might be actual kusala, but I'm not sure. The 19% I believe are development of wrong view because I'm taking it for path, while in fact it is not. The 1% I don't know if it is really kusala, and if it is, then most likely it is just kusala of samatha kind, so no right view of the path strength. Hence, my meditation practice does not take me anywhere near the path. (of course it was very hard to admit all this to myself) Now, if my understanding was more advanced, in the sense that 90% of the time I'd be aware at least of whether there's kusala or akusala happening at the time, then it would be possible to really sit down intentionally and develop this or that (in fact it would be a natural thing to do - remember the autoimatic application, so no extra effort would be required). But my understanding is not there, then it seems counterproductive to attempt it. And I did attempt it just to make sure. Best wishes pt #117035 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:13 pm Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Mike), ------ <. . .> > Ph: A quick challenge to your latest overstatement. ------ KH: Overstatement? If the Buddha really did teach that there were only conditioned dhammas in this world - and nothing else - how could could there be any overstatement of that teaching? Surely it would be beyond overstatement. My pathetic renderings of anatta are much too bland and uncontroversial; they barely scratch the surface. ------------------ > Ph: There can be questioning of modern corruptions such as, for exampke, the idea that people receive radiated metta etc, but are you seriously suggesting the Buddha didn't teach brahma-viharas?That's going (as usual) way too far. ----------------- KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. Ken H #117036 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Mike - In a message dated 8/27/2011 7:01:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdrickicki@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for the link to Bhante V. I have actually used his method to good result. Have you had any experience with his teachings? -------------------------------------------------- HCW: Not first hand - just from reading and a couple brief online conversations with him. I do like his general approach very much. However, it is a bit more "regulated" than I like - so I would not say that I am a "follower" of his teaching. ------------------------------------------------ Mettay! Mike =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117037 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil & Mike) - In a message dated 8/27/2011 11:13:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Phil (and Mike), ------ <. . .> > Ph: A quick challenge to your latest overstatement. ------ KH: Overstatement? If the Buddha really did teach that there were only conditioned dhammas in this world - and nothing else - how could could there be any overstatement of that teaching? Surely it would be beyond overstatement. My pathetic renderings of anatta are much too bland and uncontroversial; they barely scratch the surface. ------------------ > Ph: There can be questioning of modern corruptions such as, for exampke, the idea that people receive radiated metta etc, but are you seriously suggesting the Buddha didn't teach brahma-viharas?That's going (as usual) way too far. ----------------- KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: You speak with great certainty on this, Ken. But the Buddha did teach cultivation of the brahmaviharas, and, moreover, they can lead one in the direction of liberation. In this latter regard, you might like to look at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html) You might also note that the Karaniya Metta sutta begins with "This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace ...". What do you suppose "The state of peace" is? --------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117038 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:01 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Alex (117025) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > ... > Do you have clear and unambigious general statements in the suttas where the Buddha allows for N7P (Noble Sevenfold path)? > =============== J: I do not see the development of mundane jhana as having anything to do with the jhana that is the N8P factor of Right Concentration. As I've been explaining in one of my recent threads with Rob E, the path factors are mental factors that accompany a moment of path consciousness. So at every moment of path development (properly so called), the mental factor of concentration is right concentration, and at the moment of actual path consciousness the mental factor of right concentration is said to be of the level of jhana, regardless of whether the path consciousness had mundane jhana consciousness as its basis (i.e., as its object in the immediately preceding moments). Mundane jhana is not a teaching that is exclusive to the Buddha, and its role in the development of insight is no different to that of other forms of kusala (side note to Phil: I take this to be KenH's point). The person who has attained mundane jhana but has not heard the teachings is no closer to the development of the path by virtue of that attainment. Jon #117039 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:34 pm Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi jonoabb Hi again Mike Just a few words to supplement Phil's useful comments (with which I mostly agree). The development of any kind of kusala depends on being able to distinguish the kusala, if and when it arises, from (subtle) akusala that may closely resemble the kusala. Phil has already mentioned compassion and sadness; and, as I'm sure you know, each of the 4 BVs has its 'near enemy'. As Phil also mentions, metta (and of course other kusala) arise in daily life, without there being any idea of its development, and regardless of one's interest in the teachings (except in the case of kusala of the level of awareness/insight). This presents an opportunity for the characteristic of kusala in general, and of the individual kinds of kusala, to be known by first-hand experience. Akusala consciousness also has its general and specific characteristic to be directly known. The question is, do we *know* in a direct way the characteristic of kusala and that of akusala, as they occur in our normal daily life? Or do we tend to, in effect, *deduce* the nature of the present consciousness by characterising what we are doing, or how we are thinking, as being the one or the other? If we fall into the latter category, then there is no proper foundation for the development of kusala, since there is no way to know kusala from subtle akusala. While the suttas and commentaries make frequent mention of monks developing kusala, they do not in my view say that the doing, by other persons, of what is there being described constitutes or will necessarily conduce to the development of kusala. I realise that last sentence is likely to be controversial :-)) Hoping this helps put the development of metta into a general context. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again Mike > > > I see on re-reading that you used "more or less" theoretical cuz you referred to ultimate release, that makes more sense. But Abhidhamma's teaching is no more or less about ultimate release than the suttanta is, the dhamma of metta and it's characteristics can be experienced here and now, if the dhamma arises, and I think it does quite often, especially relative to karuna, for example, which is more rarefied since it cab't be accompanied by any unpleasant mental feeling, such as sadness, throwing the conventional understanding of compassion (suffering with) out the window. Anyways, I suspect you will soon witness first hand what the topuc of intentional practice leads to at DSG. BTW, I like the way you include mettaya in the text of your message rather than in the sign-off. Mettaya! > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mike > > > > I sonetimes use the word "theoretical" as well but we should be careful since it can imply that something cannot be confirmed in reality, which is certainly not the case with the characteristics of a moment of metta arising due to conditions rather than intentional practice (which in itself could create conditions for the arising of metta as long as we remember that practices rooted in desire for fast results are unlikely to give rise to the kusala dhammas such as metta.) Maybe the word "theory" to translate pariyatti is better because it does not imply (at least not to me) that the intellectual understanding of the teaching will not/ cannot be confimed as reality. > > > > Metta, > > Phil #117040 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi nilovg Dear Mike, Op 28-aug-2011, om 9:34 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > The question is, do we *know* in a direct way the characteristic of > kusala and that of akusala, as they occur in our normal daily life? > Or do we tend to, in effect, *deduce* the nature of the present > consciousness by characterising what we are doing, or how we are > thinking, as being the one or the other? ------- N: This is so true. It is easy to confuse selfish affection with true, unselfish mettaa. We have to learn the characteristic of mettaa in daily life, when we are with others. Those who want to develop mettaa as a meditation subject of samatha can only do so if they know precisely the characteristic of mettaa as it occurs in daily life. I quote from Acharn Sujin's book on the Perfections: <... we should ask ourselves whether we have already sufficiently developed the perfection of mettå. We may be forgetful of assisting others with loving-kindness, of developing mettå in this way, time and again. We should support others with mettå, also when they are strangers, people we do not know. If one has not yet accumulated all the perfections, none excepted, there are not sufficient conditions for the elimination of defilements... If we only consider the outward appearance of our deeds, attachment and loving-kindness seem to be similar. When we perform a good deed for the sake of someone who is close to us, whom we respect and love, it seems that this is motivated by kusala, by mettå. However, why can we not be kind in the same way to some-one else, no matter who he is? If there is true mettå it should be exactly the same whether we perform an act of kindness to someone who is close to us, with whom we are familiar, or to a person we are not familiar with. If there is true mettå, if we want to develop the perfection of mettå, we should not restrict mettå to particular persons. When we limit mettå, we should investigate the characteristic of the citta at that moment, we should know whether it is kusala citta or akusala citta...> ------- Nina. #117041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:30 pm Subject: Wishing luck? nilovg Hi Howard and Phil, Just back from a trip, and of course we thought of you when hearing about Long Island. Good wishes from both of us, and do not answer my mail, you have so many. But remember Dhamma as Azita said. In fact we never know what happens next moment. We think about 'our vipaaka' but who knows? We cannot tell from moment to moment what object presents itself through which doorway. Life is one moment of citta, only one object at a time. Will there be aversion, or equanimity, who knows, it depends on conditions. ------ Phil: Not to say that I don't believe that there can be awareness of the characteristics of the actual dhammas, or nimittas thereof, to be more accurate. By the way, with Nina and Sarah away, I am missing my Dhamma Mommies terribly. Waaa! Waaaa! Wanna talk about nimitta? Did you find those notes? :) ------- N: You made me laugh so much! Notes about nimittas, wait, I have to read back messages. We do not have to think of nimittas, they are nimittas of realities, appearing one at a time, characteristics. ------ Nina. #117042 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:52 pm Subject: Blinking is Being! bhikkhu5 Friends: Any conscious moment also dies immediately! Life, personality, pleasure, pain, endures joined in one conscious moment, that flicks by... Whether such ceased clusters of clinging are those of a dead or alive does not matter, they are all alike, momentarily gone never to return... No world is born and appears as manifest, if consciousness is not produced! Only when consciousness is present, does the world emerge! When consciousness momentarily dissolves, the world is dead and vanished! So both the being & the world starts and ends within each conscious moment! Both are reborn millions of times per second! Not only at conventional death.. This is how death also should be recollected, as the shortness of the moment. This is the highest sense this concept of conscious existence ever will allow...! (Source: Vism I 238, Nd I 42) Both 'Being' & 'World' occurs only as discrete conscious moments! Being is not static, but a process of becoming proceeding as discrete blinking: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Void_Blinking.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Discrete_States.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Momentary_Life.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Impermanence_Anicca.htm No being is Static: In the blinking tunnel flows the process of re-becoming! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * #117043 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:13 pm Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi jonoabb Hi Howard Apologies for not making reference to your post also in my message to Mike, but I did not see it until after I had sent mine off. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Phil & Mike) - > ... > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to > rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. > ------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > You speak with great certainty on this, Ken. But the Buddha did teach > cultivation of the brahmaviharas, and, moreover, they can lead one in the > direction of liberation. In this latter regard, you might like to look at > _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html) =============== J: I'm afraid this link does not work for me. Would you mind checking it again? Thanks. =============== [H:] You might also > note that the Karaniya Metta sutta begins with "This is to be done by one > skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace ...". What > do you suppose "The state of peace" is? > =============== J: A very appropriate passage for the present thread. I would assume that "state of peace" is a reference to Nibbana. But then we would also need to understand the significance of "one skilled in aims", since this will no doubt narrow the class of person being referred to. You seem to be suggesting that this passage should be read as meaning that some (specified?) level of metta development is a prerequisite to the arising of awareness/insight. I'd be interested to hear your further comments on it. Jon #117044 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:18 pm Subject: Re: Wishing luck? jonoabb Hi Nina and Howard Nina, good to see you back. Howard, hope you are spared from any damage. As regards Nina's mention of Long Island, the only reference I've seen to that spot in particular was a news item showing how much the surfers were enjoying the larger than usual swell :-)) Jon PS Good reminders, Nina. Thanks. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard and Phil, > > Just back from a trip, and of course we thought of you when hearing > about Long Island. Good wishes from both of us, and do not answer my > mail, you have so many. But remember Dhamma as Azita said. In fact we > never know what happens next moment. We think about 'our vipaaka' but > who knows? We cannot tell from moment to moment what object presents > itself through which doorway. Life is one moment of citta, only one > object at a time. Will there be aversion, or equanimity, who knows, > it depends on conditions. > ------ #117045 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:16 pm Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi philofillet Hi Ken H > > ------------------ > > Ph: Are you seriously suggesting the Buddha didn't teach brahma-viharas? > ----------------- > > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. I think I might have clued in to where you're coming from, let me hazard a guess. Because Dhamma was handed down orally, there is no way to know just what the Buddha taught and what was added by other...people, either intentionally for doctrinary reasons, or by mis-transmission? It's the only way I can understand how you can ignore the texts and related commentaries so stubbornly, honestly. Is that it? I think that would at least be logical, there are suttas that I have trouble seing as anything but eternalistic myself... Am I getting any closer to understanding where on earth Ken H is coming from? I mean, are you denying that the Buddha taught about the 4 dhammas that make up the Brahma Viharas, is it their grouping in "viharas" that you object to as a commentarial invention or sonething? Asking sincerely... Metta, Phil Metta, Phil #117046 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:32 pm Subject: Re: Wishing luck? philofillet Hi Nina > By the way, with Nina and Sarah away, I am missing my Dhamma Mommies > terribly. Waaa! Waaaa! Wanna talk about nimitta? Did you find those > notes? :) > ------- > N: You made me laugh so much! Notes about nimittas, wait, I have to > read back messages. > We do not have to think of nimittas, they are nimittas of realities, > appearing one at a time, characteristics. Ph: I'm glad you enjoyed the joke, I went too far with the metaphor in a subsequent post! I agree about nimittas, nit much to say. I accept nimittas as you say, there is not more to say about them. These days I'm reading many excellent U.P posts by you about accumulations, I want to find a way to understand other rhan "in" rhe citta. But not ready to discuss yet. Metta, Phil #117047 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:58 pm Subject: One who wishes for Deva realm rebirth philofillet Hi all Can anyone help me find the text that says that one who wishes for Deva realm rebirth should wish for all creatures to be free from affliction etc? Thanks Metta, Phil #117048 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wishing luck? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 28-aug-2011, om 14:32 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > These days I'm reading many excellent U.P posts by you about > accumulations, I want to find a way to understand other rhan "in" > rhe citta. But not ready to discuss yet. ----- N: O.K. But where else than in or with the citta? Not in an empty space. Nina. #117049 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:17 am Subject: Accumulated in/with/behind the citta? philofillet Hi Nina > ----- > N: O.K. But where else than in or with the citta? Not in an empty space. "With" is easier to underatand except as you said once it sounds like accompanying, arising together which is not right. How about carried along behind the citta? As i wrote to Lukas' friend, my violent anger hasn't arisen for years but I know it is still lurking and will almost surely arise again. When it does, I won't be upset or feel like Dhamna has failed me, on the contrary, my understanding will be confirmed, it can't be controlled, But this doesn't mean that impirtant progress toward weakenung gross kilesa isn't happening, which is the msg I have gotten from Jon and Sarah re the anysayas in the past. They are lurking to arise, but also more and more arisings of helpful non-harmful dhammas are joining the stream, the stream is becoming brighter. Does rhat sound right? Another point is that since tgere are countless past lifetimes, new additions to the accumulation shoyldn't be able to have a signifucant impact in changing tendencies, and some people insist that they don't, but I can't agree, not yet at least. People do change. How? Another point. In some of your past posts in UP you write of an ingoung stream of cittas. How is that not atman? I have to be careful, because I am attracted to the notion of atman.. I guess I am ready to discuss this after all. :) Thanks mo...er, Nina. Metta, Phil #117050 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:34 am Subject: Re: Accumulated in/with/behind the citta? philofillet Hi again, Confusing typo. "Ingoung" should have been "ongoing" stream of cittas. #117051 From: "Christine" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:47 am Subject: Re: One who wishes for Deva realm rebirth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > Can anyone help me find the text that says that one who wishes for Deva realm rebirth should wish for all creatures to be free from affliction etc? > > Thanks > > Metta, > Phil > Hello Phil, Ummm …. Maybe not Theravadin? ''If you recite this mantra twenty-one times, blow upon mustard seeds and throw them onto the bones of even extremely evil beings who have created many heavy negative karmas, those beings will immediately be liberated from the lower realms and be reborn in a higher realm, such as that of a deva. Throwing seeds blessed by the Namgyalma mantra onto the bones or body of a dead being purifies that being�s consciousness, and even though that being may have been reborn in hell or any other lower realm, that being can be reborn in a deva realm. http://www.tonglen.oceandrop.org/NAMGYALMA%20MANTRA.htm #117052 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:15 am Subject: Re: One who wishes for Deva realm rebirth philofillet Hi Christine > Ummm …. Maybe not Theravadin? I was wondering about that too. The exact quote (without a reference. alas) is written in one of my notebooks somewhere. but those quotes contain a few remnants from the first Dhamma book I ever had. a kind of Buddhist Gideon's left in Japanese hotel rooms. But the probability of it being one of those quotes is pretty low. Hmmm, I wonder if I can pick up some mustard seeds at my local supermarket.... Metta, Phil But I don't think > ''If you recite this mantra twenty-one times, blow upon mustard seeds and throw them onto the bones of even extremely evil beings who have created many heavy negative karmas, those beings will immediately be liberated from the lower realms and be reborn in a higher realm, such as that of a deva. Throwing seeds blessed by the Namgyalma mantra onto the bones or body of a dead being purifies that being�s consciousness, and even though that being may have been reborn in hell or any other lower realm, that being can be reborn in a deva realm. > http://www.tonglen.oceandrop.org/NAMGYALMA%20MANTRA.htm > #117053 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:51 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) dhammasaro Howdy, How are things in Long Island? We have been unable to reach our Thai-American retired couple on Long Island. Perhaps, no electricity. Well, here in Haverford, PA this "so called" hurricane was just a lot of hype!!! It was no more than the typical rain storms we have had all summer!!! We did lose electricity from about midnight to nine AM. We lite candles. Also, the UPS I installed worked for about 30 minutes for my friend's router. I weathered much, much worse hurricanes in living some twenty plus years on the South (New) Jersey Shore and seven years just south of Miami, Florida. FWIW, I had the "eye" of a hurricane go over my Jersey Shore home. Several engineers from Sweden stayed with us as their nearby bay side motel said leave because of water flooding possibility. They were delayed in flying out of Philly. I later received a letter from one saying they enjoyed telling associates and friends that the rain storm they were having in Sweden was a hurricane in USA when they were there! Best of all: Seems my Elizabeth City, NC Texan daughter-in-law and family are well from a 6 AM e-mail. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Good Morning, We do not have any standing water on property. We have lost one apple tree in the right corner of the yard. No damages to report at this time. I have lots of chili, rice and waffles left over. See ya soon?? ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; peace, yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com; upasaka@...; cjforsyth1@... From: dhammasaro@... Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:06:45 -0400 Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Wish Us Luck! :-) Howdy, Yes, I well remember the recent flooding. It covered an area larger than Texas. My Texas Buddhist friends of many ethnic backgrounds (of the diverse Buddhist Traditions/Schools/Sects/New religions) meditated for the relief and comfort of all affected. Also, most of us were able to donate moneys to the Red Cross and other charity organizations for clothing, food, et cetera. peace... metta (maitre) Chuck #117054 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:42 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Mike), ------------------ > > > Ph: Are you seriously suggesting the Buddha didn't teach brahma-viharas? > > > > > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. > > > Ph: I think I might have clued in to where you're coming from, let me hazard a guess. Because Dhamma was handed down orally, there is no way to know just what the Buddha taught and what was added by other...people, either intentionally for doctrinary reasons, or by mis-transmission? ------------------ KH: No, Phil, I have no problem with things possibly added in by other people - provided they help us to understand the present reality. -------------------- Ph: It's the only way I can understand how you can ignore the texts and related commentaries so stubbornly, honestly. Is that it? I think that would at least be logical, there are suttas that I have trouble seing as anything but eternalistic myself... Am I getting any closer to understanding where on earth Ken H is coming from? -------------------- KH: Basically, I am just repeating what the K Sujin students are telling us. Admittedly I have my own style of presentation. :-) But if you find any substantial differences, please point them out. In the present discussion, for example, aren't I just repeating what DSG has been saying since day one? The Brahama viharas are mundane jhana absorptions, and mundane jhana absorptions were practised long before the Buddha ever taught the Dhamma. So they are not the Dhamma. ---------------------------- > Ph: I mean, are you denying that the Buddha taught about the 4 dhammas that make up the Brahma Viharas, is it their grouping in "viharas" that you object to as a commentarial invention or sonething? Asking sincerely... ---------------------------- KH: I agree he did describe those four dhammas. He also described others - lobha, dosa and moha, for example. And his reason for doing so was that could know them when they arose. In my daily life, lobha dosa and moha are much more likely to be arising than are any of the jhana factors. So too are the sense rupas (visible object, audible object, and so on). And I know for a fact those sense rupas are being taken as actual objects of consciousness, even right now. I am not saying the jhana factors are irrelevant to people like me. They are all relevant to my Dhamma study. But surely some dhammas must be more relevant than others. Where would you place the mundane jhanas on your 'relevancy list'? Where would you advise Mike to place them on his list? Ken H #117055 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:17 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- >> KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. >> > HCW: You speak with great certainty on this, Ken. But the Buddha did teach cultivation of the brahmaviharas, and, moreover, they can lead one in the direction of liberation. In this latter regard, you might like to look at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html) You might also note that the Karaniya Metta sutta begins with "This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace ...". What do you suppose "The state of peace" is? --- KH: I'll leave sutta interpretation to others, thanks very much. :-) But I will agree the Buddha did teach the cultivation of kusala. Satipatthana cultivates all kinds of kusala, not just more sastipatthana. I think in my case the other kusalas are likely to be ordinary dana and sila. In some cases - especially in the Buddha's day - they were likely to include jhana. It all depends on conditions. Ken H #117056 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:27 pm Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi philofillet Hi Ken and all > > ------------------ > > > > Ph: Are you seriously suggesting the Buddha didn't teach brahma-viharas? > > > > > > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. Ph: As Howard said (if I recall correctly) there are twachings that lead in the direction of liberation. I also enjoy hearing about conditions at the paramattha level, but there is a much more mundane level of behaviour in body, speech and mind supprting kusala that you are not interested in. Fair enough, you seek to go straight to the heartwood. I think you might possibly end up with a lobha miha crafted fascimike of it, but perhaps you will get to the heartwood by your straight-at-it route. > > In the present discussion, for example, aren't I just repeating what DSG has been saying since day one? The Brahama viharas are mundane jhana absorptions, and mundane jhana absorptions were practised long before the Buddha ever taught the Dhamma. So they are not the Dhamma. Ph: Questionable logic indeed. I don't want to go any deeper into it, life is short. > > Ph: I mean, are you denying that the Buddha taught about the 4 dhammas that make up the Brahma Viharas, is it their grouping in "viharas" that you object to as a commentarial invention or sonething? Asking sincerely... > ---------------------------- > > KH: I agree he did describe those four dhammas. He also described others - lobha, dosa and moha, for example. And his reason for doing so was that could know them when they arose. Ph: Oh, he "described" them but rhey are not his teaching. I don't really understand that, but nevermind. Thanks Ken, over and out. Metta, Phil > > In my daily life, lobha dosa and moha are much more likely to be arising than are any of the jhana factors. So too are the sense rupas (visible object, audible object, and so on). And I know for a fact those sense rupas are being taken as actual objects of consciousness, even right now. > > I am not saying the jhana factors are irrelevant to people like me. They are all relevant to my Dhamma study. But surely some dhammas must be more relevant than others. > > Where would you place the mundane jhanas on your 'relevancy list'? Where would you advise Mike to place them on his list? > > Ken H > #117057 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:06 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Phil Would like to elaborate on the side-note to you that I gave in my post to Alex (which you may not have seen - 117038). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (117025) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, all, > > ... > > Do you have clear and unambigious general statements in the suttas where the Buddha allows for N7P (Noble Sevenfold path)? > > =============== > > J: I do not see the development of mundane jhana as having anything to do with the jhana that is the N8P factor of Right Concentration. > > As I've been explaining in one of my recent threads with Rob E, the path factors are mental factors that accompany a moment of path consciousness. So at every moment of path development (properly so called), the mental factor of concentration is right concentration, and at the moment of actual path consciousness the mental factor of right concentration is said to be of the level of jhana, regardless of whether the path consciousness had mundane jhana consciousness as its basis (i.e., as its object in the immediately preceding moments). > > Mundane jhana is not a teaching that is exclusive to the Buddha, and its role in the development of insight is no different to that of other forms of kusala (side note to Phil: I take this to be KenH's point). > =============== J: On the matter of the role of (non-path) kusala in the development of insight, as I see it the Buddha encouraged the development of all levels of non-path kusala (including jhana). But he did so in the context of the development of the path, rather than, say, sila or samatha plain and simple, as might be developed by a person who had not heard the teachings. I think you'll find that suttas that mention, for example, the development of non-path kusala for lay folk, which you sometimes refer to, also make reference to the development of the path. Jon #117058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulated in/with/behind the citta? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 28-aug-2011, om 21:17 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > ----- > > N: O.K. But where else than in or with the citta? Not in an empty > space. > > "With" is easier to underatand except as you said once it sounds > like accompanying, arising together which is not right. How about > carried along behind the citta? > ------ N: A citta with lobha arises and then it falls away. A new accumulation of lobha takes place, it is added on more and more to the formerly accumulated lobha. We can use many words, in, with, carried along behind, but the main thing is to understand the process. No term is completely satisfactory. -------- > Ph: As i wrote to Lukas' friend, my violent anger hasn't arisen for > years but I know it is still lurking and will almost surely arise > again. .... They are lurking to arise, but also more and more > arisings of helpful non-harmful dhammas are joining the stream, the > stream is becoming brighter. Does rhat sound right? > ------- N: It is best not to think too much about the stream becoming brighter. We do not know this. We do not know to what extent latent tendencies condition akusala cittas, at any moment. We may be taken by surprise. That is, so long as the magga-citta has not eradicated them. But still, we can also say that through satipa.t.thaana there can be a wearing out of defilements little by little. So little that it can hardly be noticed. Otherwise there could be no eradication by the magga-citta. This does not occur suddenly, without conditions being cultivated. ------ > Ph: Another point is that since tgere are countless past lifetimes, > new additions to the accumulation shoyldn't be able to have a > signifucant impact in changing tendencies, and some people insist > that they don't, but I can't agree, not yet at least. People do > change. How? > ------ N: Through satipa.t.thaana there can be a change for he better, but very slowly so. If we think too much it is all the time:'my change for the better'. This is counteractive. -------- > > Ph: Another point. In some of your past posts in UP you write of an > ingoung stream of cittas. How is that not atman? I have to be > careful, because I am attracted to the notion of atman.. > ------- N: Can't remember I used this expression. Sounds Howardian ;-)) We can say that our life is a whole series of cittas that arise and fall away very quickly, succeeding one another. How could what is impermanent be a self? How could there be an owner, a director? ------- Nina. #117059 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:45 am Subject: All Being is Danger! bhikkhu5 Friends: Knowing any kind of existence to be Danger! The Ancient Elders explained: As one repeats, develops & cultivates the understanding that appearance is terror one cannot find any asylum, any safe shelter, any place to go to, since there is no safe haven in any kind of becoming, generation, destiny, station, or abode. Nowhere whatsoever - except in Nibbâna - is there even one single stable and lasting formation or construction, that one can place hope in or hold on to: Since as the Blessed Buddha succinctly pointed out: The 3 kinds of becoming appear like charcoal pits full of glowing coals, the four primary elements like hideous venomous snakes (SN IV 174), the five clusters like murderers with raised weapons (SN IV 174), the six internal sense sources like an empty village, the six kind of external sense objects like village-raiding robbers (SN IV 174-75), the 7 stations of consciousness and the nine abodes of beings as if burning, blazing and glowing with the 11 fires (see SN IV 19). Thus do all phenomena appear as a huge mass of danger destitute of substance or satisfaction, like a tumour, or a disease, or a dart, a calamity, a distressing affliction, like a knot of suffering (see MN I 436)! Vism 647 On the inherent Danger (Âdinavâ ) in all Being in Existence: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Experiencing_Danger.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * #117060 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:09 am Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear dhamma friends > > let it make even more interesting > > Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, pg 322, PTS >  > <<(42) Therein, when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of > something that exists in an ultimate sense, such as materiality and feeling, > this is a concept of something existent. But when by means of a concept people > bring about knowledge of something that does not exist in an ultimate sense, > such as earth or mountains, this is a concept of something non-existent. The > others should be understood by the combination of both with reference to > respectively "one who has six higher knowledge’s", the sound of the woman, eye > consciousness and a king's son This is a very useful rundown of the role of concepts and realities when being thought about/understood. Is there any further commentary about the role of these different types and degrees of concept in the understanding which develops the path? Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - #117061 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:17 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi jonoabb Hi Nina (and Howard) Just wondering if you have any ideas about the expression "one skilled in aims" as in the following translation of the Karaniya Metta Sutta, mentioned by Howard in an earlier post to KenH: This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace: Be capable, upright, & straightforward, easy to instruct, gentle, & not conceited, content & easy to support, with few duties, living lightly, with peaceful faculties, masterful, modest, & no greed for supporters. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.than.html I'd be interested to know its import. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Howard > > Apologies for not making reference to your post also in my message to Mike, but I did not see it until after I had sent mine off. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Ken (and Phil & Mike) - > > ... > > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to > > rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > HCW: > > You speak with great certainty on this, Ken. But the Buddha did teach > > cultivation of the brahmaviharas, and, moreover, they can lead one in the > > direction of liberation. In this latter regard, you might like to look at > > _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html_ > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html) > =============== > > J: I'm afraid this link does not work for me. Would you mind checking it again? Thanks. > > =============== > [H:] You might also > > note that the Karaniya Metta sutta begins with "This is to be done by one > > skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace ...". What > > do you suppose "The state of peace" is? > > =============== > > J: A very appropriate passage for the present thread. I would assume that "state of peace" is a reference to Nibbana. But then we would also need to understand the significance of "one skilled in aims", since this will no doubt narrow the class of person being referred to. > > You seem to be suggesting that this passage should be read as meaning that some (specified?) level of metta development is a prerequisite to the arising of awareness/insight. I'd be interested to hear your further comments on it. > > Jon #117062 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:34 am Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > Taking the points where we differ: > > > RE: There are problems with using terms like understanding. My concern is for where the understanding takes place. The abstraction of citta taking nibbana as object - very technical - does very little to clarify what kind of understanding really represents enlightenment, and what kinds of experiential moments really represent the path. The technicalities of many of the discussions, like it or not, are far removed from anything we experience. We might as well say 'we experience molecules of mercury' for all it means experientially. When you have a technical understanding of the path and enlightenment it tends to be intellectual because it doesn't really live anywhere else. ... I don't personally see a whole lot in common with that description and what often constitutes the more technical discussions around here. I'm not against those technicalities, but saying that panna arises with thus and such cetasikas doesn't seem to me to do much of anything beyond continuously increased intellectual clarity on how such moments are supposed to work on paper. > > pt: Perhaps what you describe is in fact the difference between purely intellectual understanding and understanding of pariyatti sort. When pariyatti happens, then the technical/intellectual bit makes sense on a practical level. I remember when the whole anatta deal all of a sudden clicked for me on a practical level, and all the technicality suddenly as if got a third dimension - before that abhidhamma and buddhism as a whole seemed like one long algebra equation. I've had those moments too, and I am also sometimes grateful for the understandings of the more technical descriptions because at times they can "click into place." That is despite some misgivings on an approach that seems often very involved with information. > > RE: That makes sense, but what is going to cause panna to arise, as we continue to discuss issues of technical understanding and technical clarity? > > pt: As I remember the explanation, the direct condition for panna arising now is accumulations (so previous panna), while indirect condition for panna is hearing and considering Dhamma (whether right now or at some point earlier). As I remember discussing this recently with Sarah and Jon, hearing Dhamma has to do with rupa (audible) sense-door process, which is heard thanks to previous kusala kamma (so its vipaka), whereas considering and understanding Dhamma happens in the following mind-door processes, specifically in javana cittas of these processes which may be accompanied by panna that arises thanks to previous accumulations (of panna). This explains for example why it's possible to hear Dhamma but not understand it or even hate it - there's no panna arising in the javana cittas of the mind-door processes that consider what was heard. I appreciate the explanation, which makes sense. However, the whole idea that panna and the hearing of Dhamma are strictly the result of past life accumulations seems very far removed from any development we do in this lifetime, and does not seem to be restricted in that way in the explanations in sutta - though I may just not have seen the relevant suttas. It's a very, once again, non-active approach to understanding, as far as this lifetime is concerned, and once again gets into the difficult territory of interpreting the teachings on what constitutes practice, now, in this lifetime which is where we currently are. > > RE: Do you think it will arise because of the understanding of these discussions? And if not, what's going to bring panna into the equation? > > pt: I hope the explanation above covers these questions. It covers it, from the point of view of this theoretical framework, but does not necessarily connect that view of how things develop to a source in sutta, which would be good to see if it exists. > > RE: That is good, and it comes back to practice again. I don't see sati, panna and vipassana arising by only dwelling in the descriptions given by the scriptures. If that description is applied to everyday life, and applied in a specialized way in meditation, rather than waiting for moments to come somehow from just reading and considering, then I see those practices developing the path. > > pt: The last sentence is a loaded statement. > Firstly: "If that description is applied to everyday life," - I think the application happens on its own, i.e. the effort is automatic, there's no need for some additional purposeful effort. If in fact that is the case, then any additional purposeful effort would in fact also be arising on its own, since there is no other mechanism to make it arise, other than whatever accumulations and tendencies have led to that moment of practice/effort. > To give an analogy, say you just learned that a road sign with 60 on it means that's the top speed (ala that anger is akusala). From then on, every time you see the speed sign (you notice the anger), you'll automatically know what it is (top speed - or anger is akusala). If you're actually seeing it that is. If you're not, (like because of talking to a passenger), then you won't notice the speed limit (or that dosa is akusala). Having been made aware of the speed limit, if one were to notice that they are going over the speed limit repeatedly, would it be worthwhile to remind oneself not to do that, and/or to actually practice watching the speedometer while accelerating to make sure you don't go over [both examples of concerted effort applied to practice,] or would you take the approach that one should be more natural about it, and having seen the sign, and seeing it again from time to time in the natural course of driving, trust that eventually, without additional purposeful effort or reminders, one will eventually stop going over 60? Let me know if you think that's a straw man, but I think it's a pretty fair comparison of the alternate approaches. > Secondly, "and applied in a specialized way in meditation," - that's a discussion on its own, perhaps later. Yes, I added that purposely, to open the way for discussing purposeful application in meditation practice, whether for or against... > Thirdly, "rather than waiting for moments to come somehow from just reading and considering," - that's a misunderstanding (ok, actually it's a strawman), because, as mentioned imo, from the moment you learn something, the application becomes automatic, while the depth of the automatic application depends on how well you learned it initially (so accumulated panna in terms of understanding Dhamma). Further, you seem to imply some sort of "purposeful" waiting for the moments to come, which is sort of absurd. Well I don't know about "purposeful waiting" per se, but I think there is an understanding or belief that if one keeps reading and considering, that this will in fact lead to the path developing. If one did not think this, what good would the reading and considering do? So I think there is a sense of purpose or intention in refraining from additional practice of a more forced kind, while continuing to read and consider as path activities. I also don't agree that there is an automatic application of something once learned, that it is out of our hands. There is no area of life where the skill of doing something is not improved by regular practice. It is only here that it is somehow thought that not practicing improves the result. That is like saying "I will only practice piano when I feel like it, otherwise it is forced and unnatural." Yes, it is somewhat forced and unnatural, but that's actually the nature of real practice. It doesn't happen by itself just from getting the information, it only happens with concerted effort. And that's the big argument around here about meditation. Do you do a regular practice where you apply the principles of Dhamma, or not, and thus develop the skills of mindfulness and samatha. Can they be developed by practice or not? There are only two sides to that issue, and the argument against practice to develop those qualities like any other skill, physical or mental, are not convincing to me. > > RE: Right, I'm normally talking about meditation as it is ordinarily understood - taking time to purposely consider and develop the understanding of the arising moments, using either breath or another object as the object of the meditation. > > pt: If I remember right, someone mentioned that this "ordinarily understood" meditation is actually a fairly recent occurrence in Theravada, coming into mainstream with a few Burmese and Thai monks at the end of the 19th century, if I'm not mistaken, and in particular when it comes to vipassana medtiation - geared towards increasing insight. As for samatha meditation purely, that's been going on for many millenia, so no need to discuss imo, as it's not strictly buddhism. I know that's the common view around dsg anyway. I'd have to do further research but I don't believe that's the case. My main evidence at the moment is the detailed instructions in concentration and mindfulness meditation given by the Buddha in anapanasati and satipatthana suttas, and the followup instructions in these areas given by Buddhaghosa. Those are clear enough that practice has been going on since the inception of Buddhism, and the arguments that these were descriptions of monks "already practicing" in that way do not seem correct to me at all. The language of the suttas is clearly showing the steps to developing these qualities through meditation and they are systematic and clearly practicable in the way they are presented. > > RE: Such meditation involves a certain degree of concentration and intention, and then continues to focus on arising moments and their nature as they arise. > > pt: well, everything involves a certain degree of concentration and intention. These are cetasikas that arise with every citta. the real issue imo is whether these are wholesome or not, and how does one know they are indeed wholesome or not. Knowing that in the present moment is in fact what I'd call "meditation". I would not agree. There are skills and practices and then there is the issue of whether the arising moment is wholesome or not, but the wholesomeness of the moment does not speak for or against the skills developed in practice. I know this is another area of disagreement. I can play the violin angrily or sweetly, but that doesn't make me a good or bad violinist - my skill level does. And mindfulness and the ability to reduce agitation and create calm and to concentrate are all skills. We can use the kusala issue as a reason to never do anything, but I think it's a red herring, speaking of straw men. :-) > > RE: Every adherent to meditation practice also agrees with the understanding of moments arising in everyday life and that moments of insight can occur at any time, and cannot be controlled. > > pt: Are you sure? I was fully into trying to make this or that mental state arise. In fact I think I'm still trying to control my mental states most of the time whether in or out of meditation. Whatever skills there are that lead to skillful mental states, they are developed gradually. The point is whether they can be practiced purposefully or not. And I think they can. Have to go, but more later! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #117063 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:26 am Subject: Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Howard), ------------- > > > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. > Ph: As Howard said (if I recall correctly) there are teachings that lead in the direction of liberation. ------------- KH: How would that work? ------------------ > Ph: I also enjoy hearing about conditions at the paramattha level, but there is a much more mundane level of behaviour in body, speech and mind supprting kusala that you are not interested in. Fair enough, you seek to go straight to the heartwood. I think you might possibly end up with a lobha moha crafted fascimile of it, but perhaps you will get to the heartwood by your straight-at-it route. ------------------ KH: There is no other way. -------------------------- > > KH: <. . .> jhana absorptions were practised long before the Buddha ever taught the Dhamma. So they are not the Dhamma. > Ph: Questionable logic indeed. I don't want to go any deeper into it, life is short. -------------------------- KH: I can't see why it is questionable logic. ---------------------------------- >> KH: I agree he did describe those four dhammas. He also described others - lobha, dosa and moha, for example. And his reason for doing so was that could know them when they arose. > Ph: Oh, he "described" them but they are not his teaching. I don't really understand that, but nevermind. ---------------------------------- KH: The Buddha's teaching is a description of "the way things are." It was never intended as an instruction manual for permanent beings. That's not the way things are. ------------------- > Ph: Thanks Ken, over and out. --------------------- KH: Always a pleasure, Phil, thanks for giving me the last word. Ken H #117064 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:40 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) philofillet Hi Jon (and Ken H) and all > > Mundane jhana is not a teaching that is exclusive to the Buddha, and its role in the development of insight is no different to that of other forms of kusala (side note to Phil: I take this to be KenH's point). Ph: I'm not one who insists on jhanas because I doubt they are attainable by modern householders, but I still don't understand this logic. Whatever the Buddha taught should be seen in the context of his awakening, so his teaching of jhanas or brahma-viharas or whatever must be superior to those who preceded him, surely. Other Greeks taught about anatomy, but Hippocratus' discoveries transcended them in a way that made them useless except as historical points whereas H's discoveries are still relevant today. For example, did other teachers on jhanas teach about the jhana factors that comprise their development? As I said, not so keen on jhanas so won't go much further on this topic but I don't understand how the shortcomings of the Buddha's predecessors can be used to qualify his discoveries... I will let you and/or Ken have the last word on this. I might come to understand your (plural) point later... Metta, Phil #117065 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulated in/with/behind the citta? philofillet Hi Nina > N: A citta with lobha arises and then it falls away. A new > accumulation of lobha takes place, it is added on more and more to > the formerly accumulated lobha. We can use many words, in, with, > carried along behind, but the main thing is to understand the > process. No term is completely satisfactory. Ph: Yes, I just read in one of your UP posts "if we try to find exactly how accumulation operates, it is useless, it does not aid(?) the development of insight. I can see that. "In" doesn't help me, but no need to insist on an alternative. The main thing is that there is no doubt that akusala and kusala are accumulating all the time, right now. Now virya supports this tapping out of a Dhamma message on tiny i-phone keys, probably kusala acccumulating and dosa when a letter is mistyped, and as soon as I write about understanding that kusala and akusala are accumulating, lobha for this understanding, mana, etc. > > Ph: As i wrote to Lukas' friend, my violent anger hasn't arisen for > > years but I know it is still lurking and will almost surely arise > > again. .... They are lurking to arise, but also more and more > > arisings of helpful non-harmful dhammas are joining the stream, the > > stream is becoming brighter. Does rhat sound right? > > > ------- > N: It is best not to think too much about the stream becoming > brighter. We do not know this. We do not know to what extent latent > tendencies condition akusala cittas, at any moment. We may be taken > by surprise. Ph: I won't be surprised. It is natural that the latent tendencies arise into action at times. It doesn't take away frim my confidence that gross transgression level kilesa are becoming less and less common, that won't be changed by anusaya uprisings. That is, so long as the magga-citta has not eradicated > them. But still, we can also say that through satipa.t.thaana there > can be a wearing out of defilements little by little. So little that > it can hardly be noticed. Otherwise there could be no eradication by > the magga-citta. This does not occur suddenly, without conditions > being cultivated. Ph: No argument there. It is a very gradual process with a lot of arisings of latent akusala tendencies that might discourage someone who didn't understand Dhamma so that they might give up having an interest in developing wholesomeness.( Which of course at it's least developef level involves thinking about becoming a better person.) > ------ > > Ph: Another point is that since tgere are countless past lifetimes, > > new additions to the accumulation shoyldn't be able to have a > > signifucant impact in changing tendencies, and some people insist > > that they don't, but I can't agree, not yet at least. People do > > change. How? > > > ------ > N: Through satipa.t.thaana there can be a change for he better, but > very slowly so. If we think too much it is all the time:'my change > for the better'. This is counteractive. Ph: I agree. > > Ph: Another point. In some of your past posts in UP you write of an > > ingoung stream of cittas. How is that not atman? I have to be > > careful, because I am attracted to the notion of atman.. > > > ------- > N: Can't remember I used this expression. Sounds Howardian ;-)) Ph: Not meaning to prove anything but you use a a stream of cittas image in an old Up post that I reposted at 116975. But I understand now, as I wrote at the beginning of this post, that struggling to nail down an understanding of exactly how accumulation is not wise, it is beyond our understanding and it doesn't help in any way to understand the present moment. Metta, Phil > We can say that our life is a whole series of cittas that arise and > fall away very quickly, succeeding one another. How could what is > impermanent be a self? How could there be an owner, a director? > ------- > Nina. > > > #117066 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:40 am Subject: Re: Accumulated in/with/behind the citta? philofillet Hi again, I wrote: The main thing is that there is no doubt that akusala and kusala are accumulating all the time, right now. Now virya supports this tapping out of a Dhamma message on tiny i-phone keys, probably kusala acccumulating and dosa when a letter is mistyped, and as soon as I write about understanding that kusala and akusala are accumulating, lobha for this understanding, mana, etc. ... Ph: But the understanding also accumulates. I write a lot about lobha for understanding, and there is a lot of it, but the understanding that is the conceptual object of lobha has already accumulated moments earlier as a reality. And then there can be an accumulation of the understanding of the lobha, and so on. "Lobha comes and comes for panna to see." Metta, Phil > > > > > > > #117067 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:06 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) philofillet Hi Jon, Ken and all > > > Mundane jhana is not a teaching that is exclusive to the Buddha, and its role in the development of insight is no different to that of other forms of kusala (side note to Phil: I take this to be KenH's point). Oh, Ok, I see your point. Jhanas not necessary for insight, only teachings that are necessary for insight are exclusive to the Buddha and Ken choises (unwisely in my opinion) to insist that any teaching in tipitika that is not directly related to liberating insight is therefore not the Buddha's teaching. I think thus badly underestimates how very mundane teachings support cobditions that at keast lead in tge direction of liberation and I think it ignores the fact tgat theBuddha taught a gradual teaching according to his insight that diffetent lusteners will have different accumulated understanding, and that pouring the dhamma onto a grimy rag will not lead to a pure rag. As for jhanas not being necessary, personally I hope you are right :) Metta, Phil > Ph: I'm not one who insists on jhanas because I doubt they are attainable by modern householders, but I still don't understand this logic. Whatever the Buddha taught should be seen in the context of his awakening, so his teaching of jhanas or brahma-viharas or whatever must be superior to those who preceded him, surely. Other Greeks taught about anatomy, but Hippocratus' discoveries transcended them in a way that made them useless except as historical points whereas H's discoveries are still relevant today. > > For example, did other teachers on jhanas teach about the jhana factors that comprise their development? As I said, not so keen on jhanas so won't go much further on this topic but I don't understand how the shortcomings of the Buddha's > predecessors can be used to qualify his discoveries... > > I will let you and/or Ken have the last word on this. I might come to understand your (plural) point later... > > Metta, > Phil > #117068 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:16 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) philofillet Hi again Last post today, I promise :) --- and that pouring the dhamma onto a grimy rag will not lead to a pure rag. I got it backwards. The metaphor is that a grimy rag cannot take a dye, only a clean one. The Buddha knew that some of his listeners' minds were not ready to absorb the deep teaching so he prepared their minds through the gradual teaching. Metta, Phil > > > Ph: I'm not one who insists on jhanas because I doubt they are attainable by modern householders, but I still don't understand this logic. Whatever the Buddha taught should be seen in the context of his awakening, so his teaching of jhanas or brahma-viharas or whatever must be superior to those who preceded him, surely. Other Greeks taught about anatomy, but Hippocratus' discoveries transcended them in a way that made them useless except as historical points whereas H's discoveries are still relevant today. > > > > For example, did other teachers on jhanas teach about the jhana factors that comprise their development? As I said, not so keen on jhanas so won't go much further on this topic but I don't understand how the shortcomings of the Buddha's > > predecessors can be used to qualify his discoveries... > > > > I will let you and/or Ken have the last word on this. I might come to understand your (plural) point later... > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > > #117069 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:56 pm Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi pt. Pt. II of my reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > RE: This idea of meditation equaling an attempt to control the moments that arise or to force panna to arise is a very popular strawman, speaking of strawmen. > > pt: Again, my conclusion is different, because i've seen the same happening in my "meditation" as well as daily life. Pretty much every moment when I want something else other than what's presently there, that's lobha in 99.9% of the cases (there can be chanda, as in kusala wish, but that's very rare). This particularly applies to moments when meditating and basically being after more sati, concentration, panna, etc. The really dangerous problem with this is that one then takes what's not path (lobha) for path (panna), and thus mixes up akusala and kusala, and thus ends up with a wrong view, all the while being convinced one's doing exactly what the Buddha said. Well, maybe you experience that, and I know that is also the popular view in the dsg community. Somehow we will keep promoting lobha and thinking it's panna. This again seems to me to be a false argument, and not related to whether meditation *really* helps develop kusala or not. It only relates to whether we are somehow doing something with the meditation to make it akusala by thinking it's doing something that it's not. It's a circular argument based on a presupposition that I think is incorrect - that the fact that we are sure to generate akusala moments means that any activity that has a positive intention will mistakenly think it is kusala when it is akusala. But what if the activity really does promote kusala moments and what if we do recognize and acknowledge that akusala will arise? Why does the result have to be self-deception? Why can't we just follow the path, do the work, and gradually develop understanding? I think that's how it works. Sure, it's possible to have someone who is trying to *make* kusala happen and thereby creating more and more negative states while trying to force positive results. But I would consider that a very ignorant beginner. After a while we realize that *we* are not going to get anywhere and that it's the process that does the work. If you do certain things, eventually you get a positive result. Of course if you believe that all kusala comes from past kusala and we don't experience anything positive in this life that doesn't come from past life accumulations, then you have to believe on principle that no good can come from current activities. And that is a philosophical, rather than a practical, problem. > > RE: The difference is that there is also a regular practice and this tends to lead to a more regular course of development. > > pt: Are you sure? At least that's the question I kept asking myself, and came to a different conclusion than you. Well, we adhere to different interpretations of the path, and so we are likely to come to different conclusions. I'm not a great meditator. I only do it when I feel like it, so I'm not really following a forced regimen. But when I do meditate I do it with the point of view that it's a positive thing to do, to stop running around with the various proliferations that normally follow one upon the other, and have a chance to unwind and observe what is brewing in perception and thought processes. And I find by just breathing and allowing this awareness to develop however it does on that particular occasion, that the clouds seem to lift to a certain extent, the sense of pressure and automatic rapid-fire thinking and feeling slows down and opens up, and awareness seems to get sharper and more discerning. Now I guess that can be a total illusion, and I am really experiencing something completely different, but I doubt it. I think it's an overall kusala outcome and that it's heading in the right direction. After many years of finding that when I do this life is more clear and awareness is more open, calm and clear, it seems pretty obvious to me that this is the reason that Buddha promoted this kind of meditation, and that when done with openness and not clinging to result, it leads forward on the path and causes greater development. When negative thoughts and feelings arise in this kind of atmosphere, they are observed and maybe seen with more awareness. Anyway, that's an idea of what I think is happening. > > > pt: so, the question is then whether what you call "meditation" relates to an arising of a kusala citta, or does it relates to something else? if to something else, then what, and how does that relate to kusala citta? etc. > > > > RE: It relates to the extent that such moments arise in the course of the practice, but the practice itself is indeed a regimen that is given to allow more regular development of such qualities. > > pt: Again, my conclusion is different. I experimented a fair bit, like stopping with all forms of meditation completely for 6 months, or at other time meditating rigorously for 6 months, etc, and noticed no change in the pace of development, regardless of the combination that the "regimen" had. Then your experience is different. It may be that some people do have greater accumulations for meditation than others. I wouldn't rule out that some will have a more natural inclination to benefit from it than others might. > > RE: This group is the only place I have encountered in the world of Buddhism that seems to believe that this is a bad thing, and will not lead to further bhavana, because of the special view here that any purposeful intentional effort is doomed to promote further self-view, and lead to false akusala moments, which I just don't agree with. I also see no basis for this view in anything I have read. > > pt: I think this is not exactly so. According to this group, as I understand them, the problem is not what you call "meditation" because that's just another descriptor for an activity, which doesn't really have much to do with cittas and other dhammas. The issue is not either whether the effort is intentional and purposeful, because all cittas have intention. The problem is simply whether there's panna or not at any given moment, including those moments that would fall within what you call "meditation". If there's no panna for most of the time, then what is there instead? So we are warned that there might be lobha mistaken for panna, that there might be ignorance mistaken for calm, etc. And then a further problem that if one takes akusala for kusala, that's in fact a moment of wrong view, etc. Well it's good to be aware that we can fall into traps and that awareness encounters all kinds of objects, but that shouldn't be turned into an indictment of meditation as a part of the path. I don't necessarily hear you doing that, although I do see you saying that it isn't really part of the path one way or the other, but I have heard that many times here. > So, all these are warnings that hopefully encourage panna to arise at some point. Further, i find the warnings are generally correct in practical terms and that I often make the mistakes that they warn against. So, it's basically a matter of encouraging panna in practical terms, rather than trying to put across a new and improved theoretical interpretation of Dhamma. I think all the warnings are fine in their own right. The problem that I see is that no activities, no intentional practice, is seen to have any participation in the path one way or the other, because everything is seen to come from a different source - past accumulations and present vipaka that also comes from the past. So there's really nothing to do in this lifetime. I just don't agree with that at all. I don't believe that's what the Buddha taught, and so I think it's a wrong view of the path in it's own right. You know, there are a lot of add-ons there beside the idea of panna or insight arising in the moment. Everyone agrees that these arise in the moment and won't be there at any given time, and are not under control. But meditators believe that by sitting and paying attention, more moments of sati will arise and that the practice will eventually lead to more panna and vipassana. And the past-life camp would say that it all comes from many past lives' worth of accumulations and that no purposeful activity is going to add any value to that. It's a very big divide because of these added beliefs - and they are beliefs, not facts. > > > pt: ...it feels very nice, relaxing and very happy, so a bit like a favorite pass time, though very time-consuming and possibly dangerous if your health is not very good (i'm not even getting into the whole wrong view thing here, i'm just referring to bad health in terms of the body, the energy channels and whatnot). > > > > RE: How is it dangerous for health to have a period of time of stillness and relaxation, if that is all that it is? As far as energy channels go, if you are not doing anything forceful, what would be negative about such a pastime? > > pt: well, once the regular session starts exceeding two-three hours, strange things begin to happen, though usually after the session because the session usually feels really great. for me the problems generally have to do with the energy channels about which i know very little, which then result in strange health problems. E.g. i'd go without any sense of balance for some time, which makes it very hard to do anything, including walking. Also headaches the size of Jupiter, that incapacitate you from doing anything including work, study, etc. Then you go to the (Western) doctor and do all sorts of tests, but they can't find anything wrong with you, because it's all on the energy level I assume. And the last thing you suspect is the meditation practice, because it feels so great, and well, the Buddha is supposed to have advised it. And then of course, there are people who actually go marginally or completely insane and never come back to normality. And then there are those who are affected only to a degree, but strongly enough to drop out of school, university, work, etc. Basically, my conclusion is that being a serious meditator is dangerous, especially for laity that has little access to teachers that could spot potential problem due to misunderstanding or predispositions. If one is going to practice 2-3 hours a day, that is a lot, and it would probably be a good idea to have a teacher. Qualified teachers are around in most areas. Energy phenomena, often put under the title of "kundalini" in the west, that upsets the balance of the mind or nervous system, are possible, although I think they are most common with more forceful types of meditation, such as rapid pranayama [fire-breath] and energy-based meditation systems, such as TM or kriya yoga. I haven't heard much of that kind of report about Buddhist meditation at all, so I am a little surprised about that. You may have a propensity for energy phenomena, in which case it is advisable to have instruction or balancing work to use the energy in a balanced way. That may be an issue worth looking into. I have had those types of experiences myself, but not when I was meditating. I experienced it most strongly in relation to a particular teacher, who lets say was not very kusala, and had some of that kind of power. Some teachers can cause energy phenomena to take place in other people, and that can be very dangerous. I'd be happy to discuss more of this with you off list if you would like to know what I went through and how it eventually got resolved - to some extent, and after some years. Not sure if it's topical for this group. > > RE: I hear what the Buddha said in the anapanasati and satipatthana sutta and I don't see those instructions as applying only to the very advanced, and dangerous for others. > > pt: Leaving aside the whole health issue, and just focusing on right and wrong view, my conclusion is different. During a standard meditation, for me about 80% of the time would be hindrances, so akusala. It would seem to me that if you are aware of the presence of the hindrances then a certain degree of sati is rising to experience them in that conscious way. As has often been said here in general, an akusala moment is just as good an object of awareness as a kusala moment. So I think that would apply to meditation moments as well. As long as you are able to be aware of what they are, I would see this as potentially a kusala moment of meditation, even if the content of the arising dhamma is akusala. So I'm not sure if the percentages matter as much as whether there is awareness of what is arising. > About 19% would be moments that I think are kusala, but are in fact nothing more than lobha. The remaining 1% might be actual kusala, but I'm not sure. The 19% I believe are development of wrong view because I'm taking it for path, while in fact it is not. The 1% I don't know if it is really kusala, and if it is, then most likely it is just kusala of samatha kind, so no right view of the path strength. Hence, my meditation practice does not take me anywhere near the path. (of course it was very hard to admit all this to myself) It may also be your evaluation and may not be correct. If you are aware that this may be the case, and you approach those moments with an open mind, there is a degree of awareness observing those moments, even if there's not enough panna yet to determine whether they are kusala or not. In other words, that panna may be developing to some degree through awareness of the uncertainty of what is arising. > Now, if my understanding was more advanced, in the sense that 90% of the time I'd be aware at least of whether there's kusala or akusala happening at the time, then it would be possible to really sit down intentionally and develop this or that (in fact it would be a natural thing to do - remember the automatic application, so no extra effort would be required). But my understanding is not there, then it seems counterproductive to attempt it. And I did attempt it just to make sure. Well, that just shows that there may be a time to sit in meditation, and a time not to. And that when more panna develops to tell kusala from akusala it may be easier to make that decision. I think you give a good description of that. It may be that this is not your time, or it may be that your evaluation is too severe. Either way, I think you will follow what seems correct to you at the time. In that sense, I don't see anything wrong with a decision to sit, or a decision not to sit. For someone who thinks they absolutely know that x is kusala or y is akusala, I think it is much more dangerous to do either. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #117070 From: "upasaka@..." Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - No electric power, and not easy for me to reply by cell phone. I'll just reply to what you wrote at the end: I do NOT mean to imply that the Brahma viharas are requisite, but only useful means. With metta, Howard Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: jonoabb To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 22:17:51 GMT+00:00 Subject: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi Hi Nina (and Howard) Just wondering if you have any ideas about the expression "one skilled in aims" as in the following translation of the Karaniya Metta Sutta, mentioned by Howard in an earlier post to KenH: This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace: Be capable, upright, & straightforward, easy to instruct, gentle, & not conceited, content & easy to support, with few duties, living lightly, with peaceful faculties, masterful, modest, & no greed for supporters. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.than.html I'd be interested to know its import. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Howard > > Apologies for not making reference to your post also in my message to Mike, but I did not see it until after I had sent mine off. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Ken (and Phil & Mike) - > > ... > > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to > > rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > HCW: > > You speak with great certainty on this, Ken. But the Buddha did teach > > cultivation of the brahmaviharas, and, moreover, they can lead one in the > > direction of liberation. In this latter regard, you might like to look at > > _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html_ > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html) > =============== > > J: I'm afraid this link does not work for me. Would you mind checking it again? Thanks. > > =============== > [H:] You might also > > note that the Karaniya Metta sutta begins with "This is to be done by one > > skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace ...". What > > do you suppose "The state of peace" is? > > =============== > > J: A very appropriate passage for the present thread. I would assume that "state of peace" is a reference to Nibbana. But then we would also need to understand the significance of "one skilled in aims", since this will no doubt narrow the class of person being referred to. > > You seem to be suggesting that this passage should be read as meaning that some (specified?) level of metta development is a prerequisite to the arising of awareness/insight. I'd be interested to hear your further comments on it. > > Jon ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #117071 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for taking the trouble, under such adverse conditions, to get back to my message. Hope you kept some juice in your Droid for keeping in touch with the outside world. Wishing you a speedy return to normal (conventional normal, that is; there has of course been no change in the 'absolute' normal of seeing and visible object, etc :-)) Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "upasaka@..." wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > No electric power, and not easy for me to reply by cell phone. I'll > just reply to what you wrote at the end: I do NOT mean to imply that the > Brahma viharas are requisite, but only useful means. > > With metta, > Howard > > > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: jonoabb > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 22:17:51 GMT+00:00 > Subject: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi > > Hi Nina (and Howard) > > Just wondering if you have any ideas about the expression "one skilled in > aims" as in the following translation of the Karaniya Metta Sutta, mentioned > by Howard in an earlier post to KenH: > > This is to be done by one skilled in aims > who wants to break through to the state of peace: > Be capable, upright, & straightforward, > easy to instruct, gentle, & not conceited, > content & easy to support, > with few duties, living lightly, > with peaceful faculties, masterful, > modest, & no greed for supporters. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.than.html > > I'd be interested to know its import. > > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Howard > > > > Apologies for not making reference to your post also in my message to > Mike, but I did not see it until after I had sent mine off. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ken (and Phil & Mike) - > > > ... > > > KH: Yes, I am saying that. Brahma viharas are paths that lead to > > > rebirth. The Buddha's path, uniquely, leads to the end of rebirth. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > HCW: > > > You speak with great certainty on this, Ken. But the Buddha did > teach > > > cultivation of the brahmaviharas, and, moreover, they can lead one in > the > > > direction of liberation. In this latter regard, you might like to look > at > > > _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html_ > > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html) > > =============== > > > > J: I'm afraid this link does not work for me. Would you mind checking it > again? Thanks. > > > > =============== > > [H:] You might also > > > note that the Karaniya Metta sutta begins with "This is to be done by > one > > > skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace ...". > What > > > do you suppose "The state of peace" is? > > > =============== > > > > J: A very appropriate passage for the present thread. I would assume > that "state of peace" is a reference to Nibbana. But then we would also > need to understand the significance of "one skilled in aims", since this > will no doubt narrow the class of person being referred to. > > > > You seem to be suggesting that this passage should be read as meaning that > some (specified?) level of metta development is a prerequisite to the > arising of awareness/insight. I'd be interested to hear your further > comments on it. > > > > Jon > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > #117072 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:35 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon (and Ken H) and all > > > > Mundane jhana is not a teaching that is exclusive to the Buddha, and its role in the development of insight is no different to that of other forms of kusala (side note to Phil: I take this to be KenH's point). > > Ph: I'm not one who insists on jhanas because I doubt they are attainable by modern householders, but I still don't understand this logic. Whatever the Buddha taught should be seen in the context of his awakening, so his teaching of jhanas or brahma-viharas or whatever must be superior to those who preceded him, surely. > =============== J: Yes, in a number of respects, including the one you mention below, the Buddha's teaching on jhana was superior to that of those who preceded him. However, the attainment of jhana consciousness as such is possible outside the dispensation, whereas even a beginning level of awareness of dhammas is not. And to take that a step further, the development of awareness of dhammas depends on hearing the teachings (vipaka) and appreciating their significance (accumulated panna), rather than on any particular level of calm. > =============== [Ph:] Other Greeks taught about anatomy, but Hippocratus' discoveries transcended them in a way that made them useless except as historical points whereas H's discoveries are still relevant today. > > For example, did other teachers on jhanas teach about the jhana factors that comprise their development? As I said, not so keen on jhanas so won't go much further on this topic but I don't understand how the shortcomings of the Buddha's > predecessors can be used to qualify his discoveries... > =============== J: Don't recognise this as being what I was saying, but happy to let it go at that for the time being. Jon #117073 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:50 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi again Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon, Ken and all > > > > > Mundane jhana is not a teaching that is exclusive to the Buddha, and its role in the development of insight is no different to that of other forms of kusala (side note to Phil: I take this to be KenH's point). > > Oh, Ok, I see your point. Jhanas not necessary for insight, only teachings that are necessary for insight are exclusive to the Buddha and Ken choises (unwisely in my opinion) to insist that any teaching in tipitika that is not directly related to liberating insight is therefore not the Buddha's teaching. > =============== J: Yes, I think that's about it. > =============== I think thus badly underestimates how very mundane teachings support cobditions that at keast lead in tge direction of liberation and I think it ignores the fact tgat theBuddha taught a gradual teaching according to his insight that diffetent lusteners will have different accumulated understanding, and that pouring the dhamma onto a grimy rag will not lead to a pure rag. > =============== J: Yes, the Buddha certainly encouraged the development of jhana by those who were properly ready for it. On the other hand he made no mention of it in many other situations. So it depends on how you understand the term "the Buddha's teaching". On one meaning, KenH is right but, as we have seen, the point is easily misunderstood :-)) > =============== As for jhanas not being necessary, personally I hope you are right :) > =============== J: :-)) Look at it this way: With the development of awareness as the focus, if there is some other factor that is necessary it should become apparent at the appropriate time :-)). Jon #117074 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:25 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta Nines, Suttas 1-2 nichiconn Dear Friends, Book Nine begins: CSCD Navaka.m 340. <ti aaghaata.m bandhati; ti aaghaata.m bandhati; ti aaghaata.m bandhati; ti aaghaata.m bandhati...pe... anattha.m caratiiti aaghaata.m bandhati...pe... anattha.m carissatiiti aaghaata.m bandhati; ti aaghaata.m bandhati...pe... attha.m caratiiti aaghaata.m bandhati...pe... attha.m carissatiiti aaghaata.m bandhati. Walshe DN 33.3.2(1) 'Nine causes of malice (aaghaata-vatthuuni): Malice is stirred up by the thought: (a) "He has done me an injury", (b) "He is doing me an injury", (c) "He will do me an injury", (d)-(f) "He has done, is doing, will do an injury to someone who is dear and pleasant to me", (g)-(i) "he has done, is doing, will do a favour to someone who is hateful and unpleasant to me." Olds [ 9.1 ] Nine foundations of aggression:[ 9.1 ] Thinking: 'Disservice has been done to me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice is being done to me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice will be done to me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice has been done to one who is pleasing and loved by me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice is being done to one who is pleasing and loved by me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice will be done to one who is pleasing and loved by me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Service has been done to one who is neither pleasing nor loved by me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Service is being done to one who is neither pleasing nor loved by me' he becomes bound up in aggression. Thinking: 'Service will be done to one who is neither pleasing nor loved by me' he becomes bound up in aggression. RDs [ 9.1 ] Nine bases of quarrelling, thus:--quarrelling is stirred up9.1 at the thought: 'he has done me an injury,' or 'he is doing me an injury,' or 'he will do me an injury,' or 'he has done, is doing, will do an injury to one I love,' or 'he has bestowed a benefit, is bestowing, will bestow a benefit on one I dislike.' CSCD <> padesupi], ta.m kutettha labbhaa>ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti ; ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti; ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti; ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti; ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti. Walshe DN 33.3.2(2) 'Nine ways of overcoming malice (aaghaata-pa.tivinayaa): Malice is overcome by the thought: (a)-(i) "He has done me an injury ..." (as (1)). [iii 263] "What good would it do [to harbour malice]?" Olds [ 9.2 ] Nine ways of controlling aggression:[ 9.2 ] Thinking: 'Disservice has been done to me; what can be gained from this situation?'[9.2.1] he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice is being done to me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice will be done to me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice has been done to one who is pleasing and loved by me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice is being done to one who is pleasing and loved by me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Disservice will be done to one who is pleasing and loved by me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Service has been done to one who is neither pleasing nor loved by me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Service is being done to one who is neither pleasing nor loved by me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. Thinking: 'Service will be done to one who is neither pleasing nor loved by me; what can be gained from this situation?' he controls aggression. RDs [ 263 ][ 9.2 ] Nine suppressions of quarrelling, thus:--quarrelling is suppressed by the thought: 'He has done, is doing, will do me an injury, one one I love an injury, or he has bestowed, is bestowing, will bestow a benefit on one I dislike, true; but what gain would there be to either of us if I quarrelled about it?'9.2 ***rd: 9.2 So Comy. Cf. Vis. Magga, p. 297 f. peace, connie #117075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi nilovg Dear Jon, Op 30-aug-2011, om 0:17 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Just wondering if you have any ideas about the expression "one > skilled in aims" as in the following translation of the Karaniya > Metta Sutta, mentioned by Howard in an earlier post to KenH: > > This is to be done by one skilled in aims > who wants to break through to the state of peace: ------ N: The commentary is in the 'Illustration of Ultimate Meaning": atthakusalena:'By one clever in good, is what is meant.' Attha has several meanings :advantage, gain, welfare, profit, benefit. It can also mean aim and 'meaning'. That is why ATI prefers aim. But I find the commentary clear. ------ N: Co: Then follow all the good qualities he has accumulated. So, it is a person who has accumulated already many virtues. ------ As to the state of peace: santa.m pada.m, ------ Nina. #117076 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mettaa. was: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi nilovg Hi Howard, Op 30-aug-2011, om 14:12 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Howard: No electric power, and not easy for me to reply by cell > phone. I'll > > just reply to what you wrote at the end: I do NOT mean to imply > that the > > Brahma viharas are requisite, but only useful means. ------ N: not easy for you, I think of the refrigerator and all the food in it. I would like to add to this discussion about mettaa just a few more words: In Kh Sujin's Perfections it has been stressed how important the perfection of mettaa is, it never is enough. I remember that she said in conversations: it never is enough. She explains that we may have developed the other perfections such as patience, generosity, but we should ask ourselves: did we perhaps neglect mettaa? She also describes the other Brahma vihaaras, and these are very important. I know that you agree. Nina. #117077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:12 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Nines, Suttas 1-2, and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 1. Walshe DN 33.3.2(1) 'Nine causes of malice (aaghaata-vatthuuni): Malice is stirred up by the thought: (a) "He has done, is doing, will do me an injury", (d)-(f) "He has done, is doing, will do an injury to someone who is dear and pleasant to me", (g)-(i) "he has done, is doing, will do a favour to someone who is hateful and unpleasant to me." (Nava aaghaatavatthuuni. > padesupi], ta.m kutettha labbhaa>ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti ; ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti; ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti; ti aaghaata.m pa.tivineti.) ------- N:As to the words "of what use is this?' (ta.m kutettha labbhaati), the commentary adds: Of what use is it to think with regard to that person :'May there not be such injury". By what cause is it possible to achieve this? The co explains that if he would perform a contrarious deed of what use would be a cause of anger with regard to that person? -------- Tiika: As to the words, 'by which cause I could obtain this', this (thought) is empty by nature. Beings are owners of their kamma (kammassakaa hi sattaa), and by whose inclination is there affliction and happiness? Therefore, there is only anger for 'me'. And thus, of what use is this basis of anger, since in in the highest sense (paramatthato) there is no person one should be angry with and no one who is angry. There are only conditioned realities, namely, the five khandhas. What is called 'a person' are conditioned dhammas (sa'nkhaaraa) that last for a short period (ittarakaalaa), that are momentary (kha.nikaa). The meanings is: who is angry with whom?(kassa ko kujjhatiiti?) --------- N: If one is only thinking that it is of no use to be angry, this is not sufficient. Anger should be understood as a conditioned element and it is not possible to change what has arisen because of its own conditions. Still, the Buddha taught to overcome anger. If this would be impossible, he would not teach this. Through satipa.t.thaana right understanding of naama and ruupa can be developed. We can learn that in the ultimate sense there is no "other person" who is disagreeable and no self to whom he is disagreeable. We read in the Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" (Cariyåpi.taka), the "Paramatthadípaní", about the Bodhisatta's practice of patience. The Bodhisatta considered this: "All those dhammas by which wrong was done, and those to whom it was done -all those, at this very moment, have ceased. With whom, then, should you now be angry, and by whom should anger be aroused? When all dhammas are not-self, who can do wrong to whom?" ***************** Nina. #117078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulated in/with/behind the citta? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 30-aug-2011, om 2:40 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: But the understanding also accumulates. I write a lot about > lobha for understanding, and there is a lot of it, but the > understanding that is the conceptual object of lobha has already > accumulated moments earlier as a reality. And then there can be an > accumulation of the understanding of the lobha, and so on. "Lobha > comes and comes for panna to see." ------ N: Yes, that is well said. Just a remark about understanding as the conceptual object of lobha. Let us say: as the object of lobha. I am becoming more and more careful with conceptual. Understanding is real, but it has fallen away when lobha arises and takes it as object. It can be called: n'avattabba.m aaramma.na, and object not to be declared. In the Atthasaalinii this is translated as undefinable, but this may not be such a clear translation. We cannot say it is a concept, but it has fallen away, thus it is not a present reality. I just heard a Thai recording about this, and the last chapter of the Expositor was referred to. BTW not yet come to your questions about nimitta, I could not read all posts of last week. Nina. #117079 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulated in/with/behind the citta? philofillet Hi Nina, thank you for the interesting post about object of lobha, I use "conceptual" very freely, it's true. Panna as object of lobha and as object of thinking, I have to work out the difference, > BTW not yet come to your questions about nimitta, I could not read > all posts... The question "wanna talk about nimitta?" was actually to Ann, I was wonderingif she had something from her notes, so please don't feel any need to add anything. You too Ann. I accept nimitta as the object of awareness of a paramattha dhamma that has fallen away but is considered still present, not much to add. Metta, Phil #117080 From: "upasaka@..." Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mettaa. was: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Yes, I do agree! :-) With metta Howard Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Aug 30, 2011 14:02:08 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mettaa. was: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi Hi Howard, Op 30-aug-2011, om 14:12 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Howard: No electric power, and not easy for me to reply by cell > phone. I'll > > just reply to what you wrote at the end: I do NOT mean to imply > that the > > Brahma viharas are requisite, but only useful means. ------ N: not easy for you, I think of the refrigerator and all the food in it. I would like to add to this discussion about mettaa just a few more words: In Kh Sujin's Perfections it has been stressed how important the perfection of mettaa is, it never is enough. I remember that she said in conversations: it never is enough. She explains that we may have developed the other perfections such as patience, generosity, but we should ask ourselves: did we perhaps neglect mettaa? She also describes the other Brahma vihaaras, and these are very important. I know that you agree. Nina. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #117081 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi jonoabb Hi Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jon, > Op 30-aug-2011, om 0:17 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > > Just wondering if you have any ideas about the expression "one > > skilled in aims" as in the following translation of the Karaniya > > Metta Sutta, mentioned by Howard in an earlier post to KenH: > > > > This is to be done by one skilled in aims > > who wants to break through to the state of peace: > ------ > N: The commentary is in the 'Illustration of Ultimate Meaning": > atthakusalena:'By one clever in good, is what is meant.' > Attha has several meanings :advantage, gain, welfare, profit, > benefit. It can also mean aim and 'meaning'. That is why ATI prefers > aim. But I find the commentary clear. > > The State of Peace to have attained is this. > He would be able, right, upright, > And meek and gentle and not proud.> > ------ > N: Co: that he is capable, has power. > Then follow all the good qualities > he has accumulated. So, it is a person who has accumulated already > many virtues. > ------ > As to the state of peace: santa.m pada.m, for extinction, since that is peace (santa.m) by characteristic and > it is a state (pada.m) by its reachability (pattabbataa). To have > attained (abhsamecca): having come up to (abhisamaagantvaa).> > ------ > Nina. > =============== Many thanks for this analysis. Very helpful. Going through a text in this way helps one realise how significant every word is. Every word is there for a particular purpose (just like with legislative drafting!:-)). Thanks again. Jon > > > > > #117082 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) ashkenn2k dear Jon to say the development of mundane jhana (within the dispensation and not those out of the dispensation) as having anything to do with the jhana with the 8NP as the factor of right concentration is not according to the text. The mundane jhanas are part of the development of samatha bhavana. The basis of insight from jhanas are two, either the factor of the jhanas or the jhanas on the object itself. if you said it is not, other than those in supramundane, please quote your text. Please do not give me reasons as I have heard it many times, I would like to see concrete proof to your statements as this is not in accordance to the text. Another point to say development of mundane jhanas as part of samatha bhavana is just practising kusala, also please quote your text. I did not see anywhere in the text that make such statements from you or Sarah or Nina. thank you Ken > >Hi Alex > >(117025) >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" >wrote: >> >> Hi Jon, all, >> ... >> Do you have clear and unambigious general statements in the suttas where the >>Buddha allows for N7P (Noble Sevenfold path)? >> =============== > >J: I do not see the development of mundane jhana as having anything to do with >the jhana that is the N8P factor of Right Concentration. > >As I've been explaining in one of my recent threads with Rob E, the path factors >are mental factors that accompany a moment of path consciousness. So at every >moment of path development (properly so called), the mental factor of >concentration is right concentration, and at the moment of actual path >consciousness the mental factor of right concentration is said to be of the >level of jhana, regardless of whether the path consciousness had mundane jhana >consciousness as its basis (i.e., as its object in the immediately preceding >moments). > >Mundane jhana is not a teaching that is exclusive to the Buddha, and its role in >the development of insight is no different to that of other forms of kusala >(side note to Phil: I take this to be KenH's point). > >The person who has attained mundane jhana but has not heard the teachings is no >closer to the development of the path by virtue of that attainment. > >Jon > > > #117083 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:22 am Subject: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Jon and all > Jonothon wrote > --- "> > It is always useful to consider what someone says in > > > terms of the > > > teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of > > > thinking is real > > > (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities > > > - they are > > > concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object > > > of awareness or > > > understanding." Ph: This is an old post from Up. The bit below about concepts vs. realities is very good ( purple flying elephant thought about, mother and father thought about and mother and fatger seen sitting in front of you are all concepts) is very helpful so I will leave it untrimmed. But main point is to ask about the above, the point that thoughts cannot be object of understanding. It has recently been clarified that concepts can be the object of panna, right? For example, when we consider the words of the Buddha. What there cannot be is satipatthana of tge charactetistics of a concept. But to say a thought cannot be object of panna is incorrect...correct? Thanks, Phil > And you commented "This is something I'm not at all clear on. > I've been > > wondering lately whether thoughts were nama or rupa > > and discovered this morning that they're neither. > > From NVG's 'Conditions':" > > Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists of different > cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away rapidly. These > are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. > let us consider a couple of thinking. > 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of thinking > that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation or your > no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and cetasikas. > The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. > 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or not). Again > same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the thinking process > are real but the object, mother and father, is concept- not > real. > 3. If your mother and father were right in front of you now > (talking to you) and you think of them, again the object is > concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. The colours > are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father is concept. > Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and > especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. > > Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not > concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? > Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All > the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas > directly even during the processes of thinking that take > concepts for objects. > > > > > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and > > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise > > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." > > Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only realities have > actual characteristics and functions and arise and pass away. > Robert > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > #117084 From: Lukas Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:25 pm Subject: Stay at Vihara - Lukas and Adam (pic) szmicio Dear friends, This is Vihara's blog, somehow our photos went there: Section Anagarika training http://scotlandbuddhistvihara.blogspot.com/ http://scotlandbuddhistvihara.blogspot.com/2011/08/anagarika-training.html Enjoy Lukas P.s Lukas(me) with long hair. Adam(younger) with glasses #117085 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Stay at Vihara - Lukas and Adam (pic) christine_fo... Interesting Lukas - thank you! Does the Bhante and community have any plans to attract the Scottish general community? with metta Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear friends, > This is Vihara's blog, somehow our photos went there: Section Anagarika training > > http://scotlandbuddhistvihara.blogspot.com/ > > > http://scotlandbuddhistvihara.blogspot.com/2011/08/anagarika-training.html > > > > Enjoy > Lukas > > P.s > Lukas(me) with long hair. Adam(younger) with glasses > > > > #117086 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > dear Jon > > to say the development of mundane jhana (within the dispensation and not those > out of the dispensation) as having anything to do with the jhana with the 8NP as > the factor of right concentration is not according to the text. The mundane > jhanas are part of the development of samatha bhavana. > =============== J: Yes, of course mundane jhanas are part of the development of samatha bhavana. But let me rephrase my earlier comment. Now that I read it again I realise it could easily be misunderstood (Hi, KenH ;-)) I would put it this way: Mundane samatha/jhana and right concentration of the Eightfold Path involve different dhammas. Furthermore, the development of one does not necessarily require the (separate) development of the other. *Right concentration of the Eightfold Path* is the mental factor that accompanies a moment of (true) awareness of/insight into a presently arising dhamma. See my recent posts to Rob E: - with textual quotes from Vibhanga and Vism, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/116914 - with textual quotes from Abhidhammatha Sangaha, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/116762 In the first of those posts there is this passage from the Vism: "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has the characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." So right concentration of the Eightfold Path is the (momentary) unification of mind that is associated with (momentary) right view. *Mundane jhana citta* is absorbed in the subject of contemplation. It does not and cannot lead to awareness of a presently arising dhamma, no matter how strong the absorption. Of course, if the jhana attainer has also developed awareness/insight (unrelated to the jhana), then it may be that the jhana becomes the basis for the arising of awareness/insight (as discussed below). =============== > The basis of insight from jhanas are two, either the factor of the jhanas or the > jhanas on the object itself. > =============== J: Thanks for mentioning this. Yes, this would be right. And I understand this to mean that either of the following dhammas could be the object of awareness/insight: - one of the jhana factors (these are cetasikas) - the jhana citta itself. But this can only happen where both jhana and insight have been developed to high degrees. (Note that at the moment of insight with jhana as basis, the person is not 'in jhana'. But as I understand, where both have been (separately) developed to a high degree, it's possible for the jhana citta to alternate with insight consciousness.) > =============== > Another point to say development of mundane jhanas as part of samatha bhavana is > just practising kusala, also please quote your text. I did not see anywhere in > the text that make such statements from you or Sarah or Nina. > =============== J: Sorry, but I don't get your point here. Would you mind explaining a little further so that I can respond. Thanks. Jon #117087 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha. was: Khandhas and samsara nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 31-aug-2011, om 15:15 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Another point to say development of mundane jhanas as part of > samatha bhavana is > > just practising kusala, also please quote your text. I did not > see anywhere in > > the text that make such statements from you or Sarah or Nina. > > =============== > > J: Sorry, but I don't get your point here. Would you mind > explaining a little further so that I can respond. Thanks. ----- N: I was also wondering. Mundane jhaana does not lead out of the cycle, and in this connection it is even called the wrong Path. Here is a post from Sarah: S: The Buddha refers to the right and wrong practice or way (pa.tipadaa) in which satipatthana is developed. For example: SN, Nidaanasa.nyutta, 12:3(Bodhi transl): "The Two Ways" [Sutta] "At Saavatthi. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the wrong way and the right way. .....And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness....Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong way. "And what, bhikkhus, is the right way? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations......Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the right way." ***** Here, the Buddha is comparing the micchaa-pa.tipadaa with the samma-pa.tipadaa. Can any kusala be included in the wrong way? The commentary* makes it clear that any states which do not lead out of samsara are included here in the wrong way of practice (micchaapa.tipada). These include meritorious deeds (pu~n~naabhisankhaara), even jhana states, the 5 mundane abhinnas (pa~ncaabhi~n~naa) and the 8 attainments of jhana (atthi aane~njaabhisa'nkhaara). This wrong path prolongs the cycle of rebirth (va.t.tapakkiya etc). S: The right path is that of satipatthana, the development of insights, leading to the eradication of ignorance and craving and the cycle of rebirth. > (end quote). ------- I think we provided people with a lot of texts on this subject, compare: dry insight. ------ Nina. #117088 From: "upasaka@..." Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just checking re concepts and panna upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - Just to point out the obvious: There is a major difference between "mother and father" and "a flying purple elephant": The former have a basis in namas and rupas, whereas the latter does not. With metta, Howard Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Aug 30, 2011 23:22:30 GMT+00:00 Subject: [dsg] Just checking re concepts and panna Hi Jon and all > Jonothon wrote > --- "> > It is always useful to consider what someone says in > > > terms of the > > > teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of > > > thinking is real > > > (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities > > > - they are > > > concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object > > > of awareness or > > > understanding." Ph: This is an old post from Up. The bit below about concepts vs. realities is very good ( purple flying elephant thought about, mother and father thought about and mother and fatger seen sitting in front of you are all concepts) is very helpful so I will leave it untrimmed. But main point is to ask about the above, the point that thoughts cannot be object of understanding. It has recently been clarified that concepts can be the object of panna, right? For example, when we consider the words of the Buddha. What there cannot be is satipatthana of tge charactetistics of a concept. But to say a thought cannot be object of panna is incorrect...correct? Thanks, Phil > And you commented "This is something I'm not at all clear on. > I've been > > wondering lately whether thoughts were nama or rupa > > and discovered this morning that they're neither. > > From NVG's 'Conditions':" > > Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists of different > cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away rapidly. These > are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. > let us consider a couple of thinking. > 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of thinking > that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation or your > no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and cetasikas. > The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. > 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or not). Again > same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the thinking process > are real but the object, mother and father, is concept- not > real. > 3. If your mother and father were right in front of you now > (talking to you) and you think of them, again the object is > concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. The colours > are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father is concept. > Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and > especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. > > Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not > concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? > Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All > the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas > directly even during the processes of thinking that take > concepts for objects. > > > > > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and > > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise > > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." > > Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only realities have > actual characteristics and functions and arise and pass away. > Robert > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #117089 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Howard I haven't checked the news about Long Island, hope you didn't have any flooding. How about if there were a stuffed elephant sitting in front of one's mother as one talked to her. In terms of one's cognition process the rupa of the stuffed elephant would be no different than the mother. Colour, and hardness etc if touched. Both could be known as "mother" or "elephant" by identical thinking processes, it seems to me. But good point about nama, satipatthana of "external" nama is included in MN 10. It still is hard for me to understand how there can be satipatthana of another being's nama rather than just thinking of it based on assumptions, e.g smile, therefore citta of other is wholesome, etc. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "upasaka@..." wrote: > > Hi, Phil - > > Just to point out the obvious: There is a major difference between > "mother and father" and "a flying purple elephant": The former have a basis > in namas and rupas, whereas the latter does not. > > With metta, > Howard > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > > > (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities > > > > - they are > > > > concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object > > > > of awareness or > > > > understanding." > > Ph: This is an old post from Up. The bit below about concepts vs. > realities is very good ( purple flying elephant thought about, mother and > father thought about and mother and fatger seen sitting in front of you are > all concepts) is very helpful so I will leave it untrimmed. But main point > is to ask about the above, the point that thoughts cannot be object of > understanding. It has recently been clarified that concepts can be the > object of panna, right? For example, when we consider the words of the > Buddha. What there cannot be is satipatthana of tge charactetistics of a > concept. But to say a thought cannot be object of panna is > incorrect...correct? > > Thanks, > > Phil > > > And you commented "This is something I'm not at all clear on. > > I've been > > > wondering lately whether thoughts were nama or rupa > > > and discovered this morning that they're neither. > > > From NVG's 'Conditions':" > > > > Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists of different > > cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away rapidly. These > > are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. > > let us consider a couple of thinking. > > 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of thinking > > that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation or your > > no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and cetasikas. > > The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. > > 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or not). Again > > same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the thinking process > > are real but the object, mother and father, is concept- not > > real. > > 3. If your mother and father were right in front of you now > > (talking to you) and you think of them, again the object is > > concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. The colours > > are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father is concept. > > Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and > > especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. > > > > Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not > > concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? > > Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All > > the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse > > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas > > directly even during the processes of thinking that take > > concepts for objects. > > > > > > > > > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and > > > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise > > > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > > > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." > > > > Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only realities have > > actual characteristics and functions and arise and pass away. > > Robert > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > #117090 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) ashkenn2k Dear Jon >J: Yes, of course mundane jhanas are part of the development of samatha >bhavana. > >But let me rephrase my earlier comment. Now that I read it again I realise it >could easily be misunderstood (Hi, KenH ;-)) > >I would put it this way: >Mundane samatha/jhana and right concentration of the Eightfold Path involve >different dhammas. Furthermore, the development of one does not necessarily >require the (separate) development of the other. KO: yes pure insight does not need the development of jhanas (see quote below from Visud) >*Right concentration of the Eightfold Path* is the mental factor that >accompanies a moment of (true) awareness of/insight into a presently arising >dhamma. > >See my recent posts to Rob E: >- with textual quotes from Vibhanga and Vism, here: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/116914 >- with textual quotes from Abhidhammatha Sangaha, here: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/116762 > >In the first of those posts there is this passage from the Vism: >"83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the unification of >mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes wrong concentration, >and that is called right concentration. It has the characteristic of >non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is manifested as the >abandoning of wrong concentration." > >So right concentration of the Eightfold Path is the (momentary) unification of >mind that is associated with (momentary) right view. > >*Mundane jhana citta* is absorbed in the subject of contemplation. It does not > > > >and cannot lead to awareness of a presently arising dhamma, no matter how >strong > the absorption. KO: they are the same as they are samadhi (concentration), the difference is the level of development of samadhi. In jhanas, concentration is the being developed as a basis of insight or in pure vipassana, the momentary concentration that is a mental commitant to panna this is described in Visud, Chapter 1, 6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone**, according as it is said: “Formations are all impermanent: When he sees thus with understanding And turns away from what is ill, That is the path to purity†(Dhp 277). [3] And in some instances by jhána and understanding, according as it is said: “He is near unto Nibbána In whom are jhána and understanding†(Dhp 372). ** 3. “The words ‘insight alone’ are meant to exclude not virtue, etc., but serenity (i.e.jhána), which is the opposite number in the pair, serenity and insight. This is foremphasis. But the word ‘alone’ actually excludes only that concentration with distinction [of jhána]; for concentration is classed as both access and absorption (see IV.32). Takingthis stanza as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three contemplations of impermanence,pain, and not-self; not contemplation of impermanence alone†(Vism-mhþ 9â€"10). in another footnote later between mundane and supramundane “‘Develops’ applies to both ‘consciousness’ and ‘understanding.’ But are they mundane or supramundane? They are supramundane, because the sublime goal is described; for one developing them is said to disentangle the tangle of craving by cutting it off at the path moment, and that is not mundane. But the mundane are included here too because they immediately precede, since supramundane (see Ch. III n. 5) concentration and insight are impossible without mundane concentration and insight to precede them; for without the access and absorption concentration in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the momentary concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the gateways to liberation (see XXI.66f.), the supramundane cannever in either case be reached†(Vism-mhþ 13). KO: Mundane concentration path factor, does not necessary the object must a dhamma. I have asked you before, where in the text said that only when dhamma as an object then it is consider a mundane path factor. >> =============== > >J: Thanks for mentioning this. Yes, this would be right. And I understand >this to mean that either of the following dhammas could be the object of >awareness/insight: >- one of the jhana factors (these are cetasikas) >- the jhana citta itself. > >But this can only happen where both jhana and insight have been developed to >high degrees. KO: The object is not necessary dhammas, it can be concepts which lead to jhanas that is a basis of insight. >(Note that at the moment of insight with jhana as basis, the person is not 'in >jhana'. But as I understand, where both have been (separately) developed to a >high degree, it's possible for the jhana citta to alternate with insight >consciousness.) KO: yes those description is for those who are liberated by both concentration and insight. Normally it is just concentration as a basis of insight to develop purification of view level. But purificaiton of view is not possible without developing panna or one could has already a high degree of panna (or the word with little dust) l =============== > >J: Sorry, but I don't get your point here. Would you mind explaining a little > >further so that I can respond. Thanks. KO: i always heard that samatha bhavana is just developing kusala, could I know the textual support where this is from Ken O #117091 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha. was: Khandhas and samsara ashkenn2k Dear Nina yes i always believe there are dry insightors. I only disagree when the objects of satipatthana is only dhamma. if you think this is so, please provide textual support because I could provide that the object of satipatthana could be both concepts or a dhamma Or to say during mundane development of the path factors, the object must be a dhamma. I have yet see it anywhere written in the text. Ken O > >Dear Ken O, >Op 31-aug-2011, om 15:15 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > >> Another point to say development of mundane jhanas as part of >> samatha bhavana is >> > just practising kusala, also please quote your text. I did not >> see anywhere in >> > the text that make such statements from you or Sarah or Nina. >> > =============== >> >> J: Sorry, but I don't get your point here. Would you mind >> explaining a little further so that I can respond. Thanks. >----- >N: I was also wondering. Mundane jhaana does not lead out of the >cycle, and in this connection it is even called the wrong Path. >Here is a post from Sarah: >S: The Buddha refers to the right and wrong practice or way >(pa.tipadaa) in which satipatthana is developed. For example: > >SN, Nidaanasa.nyutta, 12:3(Bodhi transl): > >"The Two Ways" [Sutta] > >"At Saavatthi. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the wrong way and the right >way. .....And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way? With ignorance as >condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional >formations >as condition, consciousness....Such is the origin of this whole mass of >suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong way. > >"And what, bhikkhus, is the right way? With the remainderless fading >away >and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional >formations......Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. >This, bhikkhus, is called the right way." >***** >Here, the Buddha is comparing the micchaa-pa.tipadaa with the >samma-pa.tipadaa. Can any kusala be included in the wrong way? > >The commentary* makes it clear that any states which >do not lead out of samsara are included here in the wrong way of >practice >(micchaapa.tipada). These include meritorious deeds >(pu~n~naabhisankhaara), even jhana states, the 5 mundane abhinnas >(pa~ncaabhi~n~naa) and the 8 attainments of jhana (atthi >aane~njaabhisa'nkhaara). This wrong path prolongs the cycle of >rebirth (va.t.tapakkiya etc). > >S: The right path is that of satipatthana, the development of >insights, >leading to the eradication of ignorance and craving and the cycle of >rebirth. > > >(end quote). > >------- > >I think we provided people with a lot of texts on this subject, >compare: dry insight. > >------ > >Nina. > > > > > #117092 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 4:18 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi again Howard Just after I posted to you it started to pour (typhoon approaching..yes!!!) andI sat on the covered balcony to meditate. The sound of rain hitting ear sense, sound of mither's voice hitting ear sense, no different, I thought. But tgen several spits of rain reached me, carried by the shifting wind. And some insight on the import of nama of the mother. The rain has no nama tgat can condition rupas rhat umpact on "mine", nor does the stuffed element, but there are cittas of the mother that can condition speech intimation, body intimation, and that is rupa that can impact me in a way tgat the rain storm seemed to by shifting direction momentarily, and tge stuffed elephant can't unless dormant cittas awaken to condition flight atraight into my face. So yes, I think it's difficult to deny that the nama (citta) of the mother and the rupa of physical intimation of the mother makes the mother different from tge stuffed elephant. But this is a difficukt topic for me, my understanding on the issue of beings is just beginning to develop... metta, phil #117093 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:26 am Subject: Rejoicing Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: Mutual Joy cures all vicious Envy and Jealousy! The dear companion can be the proximate cause for Mutual Joy, where one rejoices in another being's success... One thus rejoicing in others fortune is called a 'boon companion', for he is constantly glad: He laughs first and speaks afterward! So he should be the first to be pervaded with gladness. Or on seeing a dear person being happy, cheerful and glad, mutual joy can be aroused thus: 'See this being is indeed glad! How good, how excellent!' Just as one would be glad at seeing a dear and beloved person very happy, exactly so does one pervade all other beings in all directions with mutual joy... Rejoicing mutual joy can also be aroused by remembering other's happiness in the past and recollecting the elated joy aspect in this way: 'In the past he had great wealth, a great following and he was always glad'. Or mutual joy can be aroused by apprehending the future glad aspect of his in this way: 'In the future he will again enjoy similar success and will go about in gold palanquins, on the backs of elephants or on horseback'. Having thus aroused mutual joy regarding a dear person, one can then direct the very same feeling successively towards a neutral one, and gradually towards any hostile person. Vbh 274, Vism I 316 Comments: Mutual joy causes Contentment! No mutual joy thus entails Discontentment! Therefore: If being generally dissatisfied, then be happy over other's gains ;-) Secondly: Mutual joy causes all envy and jealousy to evaporate into equanimity! Mutual Joy (Muditâ), which cures all envy and jealousy, is a divine state! Rejoicing Bliss = Mudita, Infinitely_Joyous_Consciousness , Mutual_Joy Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Rejoicing Joy! #117094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just checking re concepts and panna nilovg Dear Phil, Op 31-aug-2011, om 18:46 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > It still is hard for me to understand how there can be > satipatthana of another being's nama rather than just thinking of > it based on assumptions, e.g smile, therefore citta of other is > wholesome, etc. ----- N: We discussed this with Kh Sujin, it is difficult to understand. As I understand this, it is a reminder to bring one back to the present moment. You see someone smile, or cry, and then you have feelings about this. One can be aware of feeling, or thinking about the other person. These are just dhammas, not my feeling, my thinking. ------ Nina. #117095 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 9:22 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon and all > > Jonothon wrote > > --- "> > It is always useful to consider what someone says in > > > > terms of the > > > > teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of > > > > thinking is real > > > > (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities > > > > - they are > > > > concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object > > > > of awareness or > > > > understanding." > > Ph: This is an old post from Up. The bit below about concepts vs. realities is very good ( purple flying elephant thought about, mother and father thought about and mother and fatger seen sitting in front of you are all concepts) is very helpful > =============== J: Yes, agreed. > =============== But main point is to ask about the above, the point that thoughts cannot be object of understanding. It has recently been clarified that concepts can be the object of panna, right? For example, when we consider the words of the Buddha. What there cannot be is satipatthana of tge charactetistics of a concept. But to say a thought cannot be object of panna is incorrect...correct? > =============== J: Well it depends on the level of detail at which we are speaking. It is dhammas the understanding of which leads to enlightenment. The teaching does not teach the understanding of concepts as the path to enlightenment. From the brief extract quoted in your post, that may have been the point being made. Direct understanding of dhammas must be preceded by correct intellectual understanding of dhammas (not just at the beginning but throughout the development). At such moments of correct intellectual understanding, there is not yet the direct understanding of a dhamma (i.e., a dhamma is not the object of the panna). You mention considering the words of the Buddha. This may be correct intellectual understanding of the kind we are talking about, or it may be the kusala contemplation that is samatha bhavana. Jon #117096 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 9:50 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Jon > But main point is to ask about the above, the point that thoughts cannot be object of understanding. It has recently been clarified that concepts can be the object of panna, right? For example, when we consider the words of the Buddha. What there cannot be is satipatthana of tge charactetistics of a concept. But to say a thought cannot be object of panna is incorrect...correct? > > =============== > > J: Well it depends on the level of detail at which we are speaking. > > It is dhammas the understanding of which leads to enlightenment. The teaching does not teach the understanding of concepts as the path to enlightenment. From the brief extract quoted in your post, that may have been the point being made. Ph: Yes, agreed. Just wanted to make it clear, because there had been suggestions/statements on the list that concepts could not be object of panna. Obviously this is a less peneyrativr degree of panna, but it is there. > Direct understanding of dhammas must be preceded by correct intellectual understanding of dhammas (not just at the beginning but throughout the development). At such moments of correct intellectual understanding, there is not yet the direct understanding of a dhamma (i.e., a dhamma is not the object of the panna). Ph: Right, concept of a dhamma is still object. Nina pointed out recently tgat she is more careful about saying concept. Maybe we can become aware of the difference between thinking about a dhamma as a concept, in a conventiinal meaning of thinking (rubbing the chin and saying "hmmm, what an interesting dhamma" )and a more fleeting thinking that is closer to awareness of a reality that has recently fallen away, a kind of thinking that can't be said to be mindfulness of characteristic as nimitta but is still closer to satipatthana than the "hmmm" musing above.....maybe. > > You mention considering the words of the Buddha. Ph: The above could also take place here. Abhidhamma is not in the book, Nina ofyen says, what about the present reality as we're reading. It seems to me that there can be "hmmm" thinking as we read a sutta or an explanation of dhammas by a friend, and we would put down the book for this kind of musing about a concept, or thinking that is closer to clicking on charactetistics of realities, momentarily, but still not satipatthana and would take place with our eyes still on the page, probably. Just my theory, very much rubbing of my chin and hmming. Metta, Phil #117097 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 10:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Nina (and Mike) > > > It still is hard for me to understand how there can be > > satipatthana of another being's nama rather than just thinking of > > it based on assumptions, e.g smile, therefore citta of other is > > wholesome, etc. > ----- > N: We discussed this with Kh Sujin, it is difficult to understand. As > I understand this, it is a reminder to bring one back to the present > moment. You see someone smile, or cry, and then you have feelings > about this. One can be aware of feeling, or thinking about the other > person. These are just dhammas, not my feeling, my thinking. > ------ Ph: Yes, difficult to see hiw contempkating the cittas, feeling etc. of others could be satipatthana unless it led us back to our own. But I realized that it is this sort of cobtemplation about others that made my intentional brahma-viharas practice kind of...obsolete, I guess. Well, I'd say I graduated from it. To whatever degree we understand others, there is more and more natural arising of metta. Now the only time I do an intentional practice related to metta is when I am on my bicycle on the very narrow and dangerous roads here and wish well to all I see (sabbe satta sukhi hontu)as I ride, to keep me on my toes and help to protect them from the trauma of seeing my brains on their windshield and to protect me from my old road rage. But tgat of course is not metta bhavana, more like a paritta.. In any case, difficult to understand external satipatthana, but I think we all agree there cannot be direct awareness of another's citta. Well, I guess there was for the Buddha. Metta, Phil #117098 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 11:13 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "upasaka@..." wrote: > > Hi, Phil - > > Just to point out the obvious: There is a major difference between > "mother and father" and "a flying purple elephant": The former have a basis > in namas and rupas, whereas the latter does not. > Hi Howard and Phil, Just butting in to say it's not obvious to me. The commentaries tell us that the Buddha spoke both conventional truth and ultimate truth, and I have no doubt about that. However, I don't take it to mean there is a connection between conventional truth and ultimate reality. The way I understand it, a concept is a concept, a reality is a reality, and never the twain shall meet. So mothers and fathers, as concepts, have no more basis in namas and rupas than have FPE's. Ken H #117099 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 11:54 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Ken (anf Howard) > > The way I understand it, a concept is a concept, a reality is a reality, and never the twain shall meet. So mothers and fathers, as concepts, have no more basis in namas and rupas than have FPE's. Ph: You might be right, I can't really say yet. But isn't it true that nama gives rise to speech and physical intimation in the rupa nama processes known as "mothers" but the FPE is pure pannati, void of nama and rupa, and a stuffed PE is purely rupa, void of nama? I guess you deny the existence of "rupa nama processes known as mothers", eh, but as I posted ti Nina, the Buddha urged awareness of others' vedana and citta and other factors in satipatthana sutta. Was he encouraging awareness of something that doesn't exist except as a concept? Possibly, but it is not a conceptual samattha topic, it is taught as an aspect of satipathhana. So confusing...I guess it is to bring awareness back where it really belongs and can develop, "our" nama rupa, Metta, Phil #117100 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 12:58 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau Hi Phil, ----------- <. . .> > Ph: You might be right, I can't really say yet. But isn't it true that nama gives rise to speech and physical intimation in the rupa nama processes known as "mothers" but the FPE is pure pannati, void of nama and rupa, and a stuffed PE is purely rupa, void of nama? ------------ KH: Good question: is it true? ----------------- > Ph: I guess you deny the existence of "rupa nama processes known as mothers", eh, ----------------- KH: You took the words right out of my mouth. :-) -------------------------- > Ph: but as I posted ti Nina, the Buddha urged awareness of others' vedana and citta and other factors in satipatthana sutta. -------------------------- KH: Every good teacher urges consideration of other people's feelings, but how did the Buddha say it could be developed? I think right understanding - here and now - was the only way he taught. ------------------------------------- > Ph: Was he encouraging awareness of something that doesn't exist except as a concept? Possibly, but it is not a conceptual samattha topic, it is taught as an aspect of satipathhana. ------------------------------------- KH: I believe the Buddha's teaching was exclusively satipatthana. It's true that he gave conventional examples of dana, sila and bhavana, but I believe they were purely metaphorical. Otherwise, we would find ourselves copying other people's daily lives. Admirers of K Sujin, for example, would want to know which politicians she voted for, how much she gave to beggars, what kind of music she liked, what she had for breakfast, and so on. But I remember she has been quoted as saying "don't copy." ------------------------ > Ph: So confusing...I guess it is to bring awareness back where it really belongs and can develop, "our" nama rupa ------------------------ KH: That's all that really can be known. Ken H #117101 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 1:20 pm Subject: Notes on nimitta from KK (March 2011) glenjohnann #117102 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 1:39 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Ken H > > KH: I believe the Buddha's teaching was exclusively satipatthana. It's true that he gave conventional examples of dana, sila and bhavana, but I believe they were purely metaphorical. Ph: I don't understand metaphorical in this context, pkease explain. I think many teachings are to create cinditions to prepare the mind. As you know the Buddha taught a gradual teaching because he saw the mind of his listener was not prepared to absorb the teaching. For example in suttas, when a person's loved one died, he did not say "there is no (insert name), he simply did not. He used teachings such as "which (name) are you grieving?" to refer to countless past lives, or tge mustard seed teaching, get one from a house where ni one has died. It would be highly dubious to claim those women had developed panna that made a "there was no (name) conclusion, rgey needed to be helped in otger terms. It prepared rgeir mibds for deeper understanding, I think. But obviously hearing tge teaching in terms of dhammas (e.g is (name) seeing, is (name) visible object?) is superior. But the Buddha did nor teach ib such terms to all his listeners. Sorry if there is a lot of typos. I'm in a rush. Metta, Phil > Otherwise, we would find ourselves copying other people's daily lives. Admirers of K Sujin, for example, would want to know which politicians she voted for, how much she gave to beggars, what kind of music she liked, > ------------------------ > > KH: That's all that really can be known. > > Ken H > #117103 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 1:53 pm Subject: Notes on nimitta from KK (March 2011) glenjohnann Hello Phil and Nina I have found and gone over my notes on nimitta from KK. These notes were taken as Achan Sujin was speaking so they are far from complete. I will provide the notes themselves - and leave discussion about them to - all of us! Nimitta is a sign - (usually) taking a nimitta for something, a concept, for instance an idea about sound. The concept is not necessarily wrong view. Can't underestimate the importance of development of right understanding with sati. For this there must be sila, samadhi and panna all arising together. What appears now is that which can be known. Wrong understanding is the root of attachment. We need to know that reality appears all of the time. Understanding things with right thinking. Attachment directs most of our thinking. Vitakka - thinks and touches the object. That is, vitakka touches an object with lobha, dosa, panna etc. Right understanding guards the sign (nimitta), that is, it guards against ignorance. Realities do not know each other. There is both nimitta of concept and nimitta of reality. Usually it is nimitta of concept. Where the other 5 sense consciousnesses or bhavanga citta is not arising, then it's thinking. Seems as if we are thinking all of the time. Understanding is nimitta of reality. It is not easy to understand feeling as a reality (nimitta of vedana). Lobha is as prevalent as the space between the kalappas. Do you forget visible object? Just understand as soon as it appears. It is already nimitta because of the succession of arising and falling away. We see people and things only because of visible object. Only colour without memory of nimitta - it can't be a concept of people etc. It is visible object with sanna (memory) which is taken for something all of the time. There can be no thinking without memory - sanna arises at each moment of citta, each moment of thinking. That's it for nimitta related notes. I recall at the time feeling that I had a better grasp of it all than previously having heard this discussion. Perhaps discussion here will prompt some of that perceived understand to come to the fore, perhaps ... . I look forward to your comments etc. Ann #117104 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 4:14 pm Subject: Re: Notes on nimitta from KK (March 2011) jonoabb Hi Ann Thanks for the notes (which I will print out and read). Looking forward to the ensuing discussion. Jon PS Great to see all that effort (hand and mouth :-)) being put to good use! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > Hello Phil and Nina > > I have found and gone over my notes on nimitta from KK. These notes were taken as Achan Sujin was speaking so they are far from complete. I will provide the notes themselves - and leave discussion about them to - all of us! ... #117105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Just checking re concepts and panna nilovg Dear Phil, Op 1-sep-2011, om 2:18 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > In any case, difficult to understand external satipatthana, but I > think we all agree there cannot be direct awareness of another's > citta. Well, I guess there was for the Buddha. ------- N: Yes, and for those who had developed the supernatural power (abhi~n~na) of knowing other people's cittas. ------- Nina. #117106 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 5:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha. was: Khandhas and samsara nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 31-aug-2011, om 19:35 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > > yes i always believe there are dry insightors. I only disagree when > the objects > of satipatthana is only dhamma. if you think this is so, please > provide textual > support because I could provide that the object of satipatthana > could be both > concepts or a dhamma > > Or to say during mundane development of the path factors, the > object must be a > dhamma. I have yet see it anywhere written in the text. > ------- N: The first stage of tender insight is naama ruupa pariccheda ~naa.na. Distinguishing the different characteristics of naama and ruupa. Naama and ruupa have characteristics that can be directly experienced, concepts don't. Of concepts one cannot say that they are impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. By the way you wrote before that the first stage of insight is not the above mentioned. In different contexts the counting is different. No contradiction. See Kh Sujin's Survey. Again, the objects of insight: read Kindred Sayings IV, all the time seeing, visible object, etc are mentioned. These are paramattha dhammas. The Co to the satipa.t.thaana sutta: no man, woman in the objects of insight. Repeated all the time. ------- Nina. #117107 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna nilovg Dear Phil, Op 1-sep-2011, om 3:54 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > it is taught as an aspect of satipathhana. So confusing...I guess > it is to bring awareness back where it really belongs and can > develop, "our" nama rupa, ------ N: right, Kh Sujin would say: what about this moment? We forget that it is not 'us' who is thinking, doubting, wondering, but just a conditioned dhamma. ------ Nina. #117108 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha. was: Khandhas and samsara ashkenn2k Dear Nina >N: The first stage of tender insight is naama ruupa pariccheda >~naa.na. Distinguishing the different characteristics of naama and >ruupa. Naama and ruupa have characteristics that can be directly >experienced, concepts don't. Of concepts one cannot say that they are >impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. KO: When Buddha taught satipatthana, is never just about nama and rupa alone.  I said a few times that before one reach purfication of views level as you mention, the object of satipatthana is never exclusively nama and rupa.  It is both   And also in supramundane which I believe known as in the eye of wisdom level, one sees in nama and rupa.  I have never seen any text that supports before the purification of view level, the objects of satipatthana must be a dhamma or everything about satipatthana is nama and rupa.  One should see commentary to Satipatthana as the authentic and authority of what Buddha said. These few passages are also echoed in the Dispeller of Delusion under the topic Classification of the four foundations of Mindfullness. <>  Therefore, by the pointing out of the basis called the body in the form of a collection in many ways, the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact is shown.  In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said:  What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free.  What he sees= What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." â€" these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta].  What is seen that he does not properly see= He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati].  Not seeing properly he is shackled= Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati].  And here, by the passage: "For the determining of the object by isolating it, and for the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact nature of things like continuity," this too should be understood: This person contemplates in this body only the body; he does not contemplate anything else. What does this mean? In this definitely transient, suffering, soulless body, that is unlovely, he does not see permanence, pleasure, a soul, nor beauty, after the manner of those animals which see water in a mirage. Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness.  Because there is no contemplating of the body with reference to a self or to anything belonging to a self, owing to the contemplating even of collections of things like the hair of the head, there is the character of contemplating, in the body, the body which is a collection of things like the hair of the head.>>  >By the way you wrote before that the first stage of insight is not >the above mentioned. In different contexts the counting is different. >No contradiction. See Kh Sujin's Survey. >Again, the objects of insight: read Kindred Sayings IV, all the time >seeing, visible object, etc are mentioned. These are paramattha dhammas. >The Co to the satipa.t.thaana sutta: no man, woman in the objects of >insight. Repeated all the time. KO: Visud is very clear on the stages and A Sujin as described in your previous email is not the way it is said in the Visud. Ken O #117109 From: "upasaka@..." Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - As you say, the mamas are important. Also, it was not a "stuffed elephant" talked of but "a flying purple elephant," which is merely thought of, with no mental or physical phenomena serving as basis. With metta, Howard P.S. Still no electric power here! Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Aug 31, 2011 18:18:30 GMT+00:00 Subject: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna Hi again Howard Just after I posted to you it started to pour (typhoon approaching..yes!!!) andI sat on the covered balcony to meditate. The sound of rain hitting ear sense, sound of mither's voice hitting ear sense, no different, I thought. But tgen several spits of rain reached me, carried by the shifting wind. And some insight on the import of nama of the mother. The rain has no nama tgat can condition rupas rhat umpact on "mine", nor does the stuffed element, but there are cittas of the mother that can condition speech intimation, body intimation, and that is rupa that can impact me in a way tgat the rain storm seemed to by shifting direction momentarily, and tge stuffed elephant can't unless dormant cittas awaken to condition flight atraight into my face. So yes, I think it's difficult to deny that the nama (citta) of the mother and the rupa of physical intimation of the mother makes the mother different from tge stuffed elephant. But this is a difficukt topic for me, my understanding on the issue of beings is just beginning to develop... metta, phil ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #117110 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:19 pm Subject: Magnificent Meditation! bhikkhu5 Friends: Unique is Ânãpãnasati Breathing Meditation! Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living at SÄ�vatthÄ", in the palace of MigÄ�ra's mother, in the Eastern Park, together with many very well known elder disciples: Venerable SÄ�riputta, MahÄ�-MoggallÄ�na, MahÄ�-Kassapa, MahÄ�-KaccÄ�yana, MahÄ�-Kotthita, MahÄ�-Kappina, MahÄ�-Cunda, Ven. Anuruddha, Revata, & Ä€nanda. These elder bhikkhus were teaching & instructing the new bhikkhus, who thus achieved successively higher distinction & discrimination! Then, surveying this silent Bhikkhu-Sangha, he addressed the bhikkhus thus: I am content, bhikkhus, with this progress; I am content at heart, bhikkhus, with this development. Therefore, strive still more strenuously to attain the unattained, to achieve the unachieved, to realize the unrealized. I will stay... Ä€nÄ�pÄ�nasati Sutta. Majjhima NikÄ�ya 118 Full text & explanation here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/pdfs/anapanasati.pdf http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/pdfs/anapanasati.pdf Print out & study seriously, repeatedly & thoroughly for elevating advantage!!! This Breathing Meditation (Ä€nÄ�pÄ�na-sati ) all Buddhas use for Awakening: Awareness_by_Breathing , Breathing_Calm_and_Insight , 1_Producing_4 , Unique_Thing_Awareness_by_Breathing , Experiencing_the_Breath , Peaceful_and_Sublime_on_the_Spot , Four_Fulfilling_Seven , The_LAMP_I , The_LAMP_II , The_LAMP_III , The_LAMP_IV . Meditation Manual on the 4 main meditation techniques taught by the Buddha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄ�hita _/\_ * #117111 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 11:15 am Subject: The 4 Inviolable Laws! bhikkhu5 Friends: Nature Law: Action & Reaction! The Blessed Buddha once spoke on these 4 invariable & fixed laws: There are 4 things, Bhikkhus & Friends, which nobody can change, neither recluse, nor priest, nor god, nor devil, nor anyone at all in this or any other universe. What are these 4 things? 1: That what is subject to decay, may not decay... 2: That what is subject to sickness, may not fall sick... 3: That what is subject to death, may not die... & 4: That those evil, immoral, impure, terrible, and pain-producing actions, which ever and again lead to rebirth, ageing, and death, may not bring results, may not produce their inevitable fruits... These four things, Bhikkhus & Friends, neither recluses, priests, divine beings, neither gods, nor devils, nor anyone in this or any other multiverse can ever stop... Therefore: So be it... Impermanence makes all vanish... More on the Universal Fact of Impermanence: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Transient_formations.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Perceiving_Transience.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Impermanence_Anicca.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Internal_Transience.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_External_Transience.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Experiencing_Impermanence.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Contemplating_Impermanence.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Contemplating_Impermanence_2.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Experiencing_Universal_Transience.htm Transient & ephemeral are all constructions... Source: Anguttara Nikâya. Numerical Sayings: AN 4:182 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Enjoy a calm, tight & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * #117112 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 12:08 am Subject: Not Who, but What? bhikkhu5 Friends: Who is it that lives these many lives? Answer: It is not any Who… !!! Since selfless is this flux of ever renewed becoming! The question should therefore be reformulated as: Question: What is it, that lives these many lives? Answer: It is an accumulated and ever changing group of: 1: Momentary clinging to form; 2: Momentary clinging to feeling; 3: Momentary clinging to perception; 4: Momentary clinging to mental construction; 5: Momentary clinging to consciousness... That itself blinded by ignorance and obsessed by craving, tumbles through these many, many, painful lives and deaths! It is not an "I", "Me", "Self", "Soul", "Person", or any "Identity"!!! A Cluster Clinging to itself! These 5 Clusters of Clinging (Khandha) are the 5 types of Being! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Any_Kind.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Not_Yours.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Leash.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Like_Foam.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fingernail_of_Soil.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Acquisition_of_Fuel.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Clustered_Truths.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Burning_Five.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Stilling_of_Clinging.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Not_Who_but_What.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_5_Clusters_of_Clinging.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Things_that_can_be_clung_to.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_are_the_5_Clusters_of_Clinging.htm As the blessed Buddha pointed out: Sabbe Dhammâ Anattâ All States are Not-Self! There is nobody home... ;-) Enjoy a calm, tight & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * #117113 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 3:29 am Subject: Re: Not Who, but What? moellerdieter Hi all, Bhikkhu Samahita writes: "Friends: Who is it that lives these many lives? Answer: It is not any Who. !!! Since selfless is this flux of ever renewed becoming! The question should therefore be reformulated as: Question: What is it, that lives these many lives? Answer: It is an accumulated and ever changing group of: 1: Momentary clinging to form; 2: Momentary clinging to feeling; 3: Momentary clinging to perception; 4: Momentary clinging to mental construction; 5: Momentary clinging to consciousness... That itself blinded by ignorance and obsessed by craving, tumbles through these many, many, painful lives and deaths! It is not an "I", "Me", "Self", "Soul", "Person", or any "Identity"!!!" unquote Well , one may say the identification of I /Self is described by 5 Khanda clinging , which -we may all know -represents in brief suffering /dukkha. That parts of this clinging are changing (from desire to indifference for example) does not mean , the identification (this I am, this is mine etc) isn't existing. In fact the 'What ' is explained by the Law of Dependent Origination , so one may say the I/Self illusion is described by the chain of conditions , a process working until the chain is broken by enlightenment /arahantship. I wonder how far you agree with me .. with Metta Dieter #117114 From: Vince Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 7:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter you wrote: > Well , one may say the identification of I /Self is described by 5 Khanda > clinging , which -we may all know -represents in brief suffering /dukkha. > That parts of this clinging are changing (from desire to indifference for > example) does not mean , the identification (this I am, this is mine etc) isn't existing. > In fact the 'What ' is explained by the Law of Dependent Origination , so one > may say the I/Self illusion is described by the chain of conditions , a > process working until the chain is broken by enlightenment /arahantship. > I wonder how far you agree with me .. yes, I think everybody would agree. An interesting side of the dependent origination is in the practical side, despite it is used massively for intellectual purposes. And precisely because one is blind to check the development of all the chain at every moment (at least this is my case). In the final core of dependent origination there is a clear way to practice: "This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form." *SN 12.65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html there is a direct relation in keeping this understanding of co-dependence in the arising of nama-rupa and consciousness ("I"-"that") with getting detachment at the same moment of contact. Because before the attachment which is born after the contact there is only the co-arising, and therefore this is a door for the cease. "I" is born every time the "that" is born, and we ignore this when we are quickly flooded by the attachment born after the contact. I think very useful what A.Buddhadasa explain about the importance of detachment at the moment of contact: "The way of making use of it is not to allow the dependent arising to take place; cutting it off right at the moment of sense-contact, not allowing the development of vedana, not allowing feelings of satisfaction or dissatisfaction to arise. When there is no production of vedana, then there is no birth of the craving and clinging that is the "I" and "mine". The "I" and "mine" lie right there at the birth of the craving and clinging; illusion lies right there. If at the moment of sense-contact when there is nothing but phassa, it is stopped just there, there is no way for "I" and "mine" to arise in truth-discerning awareness." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha193.htm best, Vince. #117115 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 11:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Howard I added the stuffed element into the mix because it would seem to be less of a concept and more real than the thought of a flying elephant. But they are both concepts, along with the mother. At least from the pount of view of how they can be cognuzed/perceived, which is the point. I'm still not sure wherher the Buddha actually taught that beings and rocks don't exist in reality or whether his teaching is that they can only be cognized though mind door processes, as concepts. But is a poisoned-arrow issue in my opinion, I shouldn't be bothered by it. The point is that a mother or stuffed elephant cannot be seen, only thought about. Only colour can be seen, only hardness etc can be touched. That is radical enough for me, for now. Sorry, off topic, trying to clarify my understanding on this point. Hope you get the juice back soon. Metta, Phil p.s posted around 8 hours ago on this, but posthasn't shown up yet... #117116 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 11:21 am Subject: What kind of vipalassa？ philofillet Hi again all > I added the stuffed element into the mix because it would seem to be less of a concept and more real than the thought of a flying elephant. Interesting, I know I re-read the above before posting and didn't see the funny typo. I saw "stuffed elephant." Is that sanna vipalassa? Citta? Seeing a piece of rope on the ground and thinking it a snake, I think the difference between the vipalasas is how firm the belief in the snake is? Another questiion. I see a woman, think the body parts are beautiful rather than foul. Is there a progression through citta vipalassa and sanna vipalassa as visible object is conceptualized into body parts and only later when I maintain the belief intellectually it becomes ditthi vipalassa? Thanks. Metta, Phil #117117 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 11:50 am Subject: Re: Notes on nimitta from KK (March 2011) philofillet Hi Ann and Nina and all > I have found and gone over my notes on nimitta from KK. These notes were taken as Achan Sujin was speaking so they are far from complete. I will provide the notes themselves - and leave discussion about them to - all of us! Ph: Thanks for transcribing. I don't know about you, but I find this teaching of nimitta has helped me a lot, I used to doubt there could possibly be awareness of a reality that rises and falls away in a millisecond, now I can believe. > Nimitta is a sign - (usually) taking a nimitta for something, a concept, for instance an idea about sound. The concept is not necessarily wrong view. Ph: There is never stopping at sense door cognition for us, always straight to mind door processes, like water going from one sheet of onion paper to the next, in a flash, is the meaning here? > > What appears now is that which can be known. > Ph: Does "whatever arises" equal "whatever appears"? For example, bhvanga cittas are always arising, but they don't appear? > Wrong understanding is the root of attachment. Ph: A bit off topic, but are wrong understanding, vipalassa and ayoniso manasikara synonymous? > We need to know that reality appears all of the tim> Ph: Even if there is no awareness of it. It appears, but because of defilements it does not become object of awareness? What's the difference between not being aware of mild lobha (e.g enjoying one's posture in a chair) and not being aware of bhavanga cittas? The lobha appears ( but no awareness) but the b.c does not appear? Thanks. I'll stop there for today. Metta, Phil > > > > That's it for nimitta related notes. I recall at the time feeling that I had a better grasp of it all than previously having heard this discussion. Perhaps discussion here will prompt some of that perceived understand to come to the fore, perhaps ... . > > I look forward to your comments etc. > > Ann > #117118 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau Hi Phil, ---------- >> KH: I believe the Buddha's teaching was exclusively satipatthana. It's true that he gave conventional examples of dana, sila and bhavana, but I believe they were purely metaphorical. > Ph: I don't understand metaphorical in this context, please explain. ----------- KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. ---------- > Ph: I think many teachings are to create conditions to prepare the mind. ---------- KH: You might be right. But I take a hard line on this point, and regard the Dhamma as an entirely here-and-now teaching. --------------- > Ph: As you know the Buddha taught a gradual teaching because he saw the mind of his listener was not prepared to absorb the teaching. --------------- KH: Is that strictly correct? The Buddha taught a gradual path, but I think that refers to the way satipatthana gradually developed from weak to strong. I don't think the Buddha ever taught anything other than satipatthana. ----------------------- > Ph: For example in suttas, when a person's loved one died, he did not say "there is no (insert name), he simply did not. He used teachings such as "which (name) are you grieving?" to refer to countless past lives, or tge mustard seed teaching, get one from a house where ni one has died. It would be highly dubious to claim those women had developed panna that made a "there was no (name) conclusion, rgey needed to be helped in otger terms. It prepared rgeir mibds for deeper understanding, I think. ---------------------- KH: I see it differently. I think the Buddha was well known as the teacher of conditionality and anatta. And so, even when someone was directed to look for mustard seeds, they would have known it was for the purpose of grasping the meaning of anatta. They would have known there was a metaphor in there somewhere. ----------------------------- > Ph: But obviously hearing tge teaching in terms of dhammas (e.g is (name) seeing, is (name) visible object?) is superior. But the Buddha did nor teach ib such terms to all his listeners. ----------------------------- KH: I think he did. Even when he used conventional terminology his audience was expected to know he was talking about conditioned dhammas. -------------- > Ph: Sorry if there is a lot of typos. I'm in a rush. ------------- KH: Just one or two, maybe. :-) Ken H #117119 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 4:33 pm Subject: Re: Not Who, but What? kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ------- <. . .> > Question: What is it, that lives these many lives? <. . .> > D: Well , one may say the identification of I /Self is described by 5 Khanda clinging , which -we may all know -represents in brief suffering /dukkha. --------- KH: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I don't think there ultimately *is* anything that lives many lives, do you? Everything that really exists does so for just one moment. ----------------- > D: That parts of this clinging are changing (from desire to indifference for example) does not mean , the identification (this I am, this is mine etc) isn't existing. ---------------- KH: According to my understanding, sutta references to "this I am "and "this is mine" are references to mana (conceit) and lobha (clinging) respectively. Only the third phrase of the trio, "this is my self," refers atta-ditthi (self view). ------------------------------- > D: In fact the 'What ' is explained by the Law of Dependent Origination , so one may say the I/Self illusion is described by the chain of conditions , a process working until the chain is broken by enlightenment /arahantship. > I wonder how far you agree with me .. ------------------------------- KH: I would agree that the law of D O explained how there could be rebirth without a self that was reborn. But I would not agree that D O necessarily created the idea of a permanent self. (If that is what you are suggesting.) It's not just the atta-ditthi dhamma that is dependently originated; apart from nibbana, they all are. Ken H #117120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 6:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? nilovg Dear Vince, Op 1-sep-2011, om 23:57 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > I think very useful what A.Buddhadasa explain about the importance > of detachment > at the moment of contact: > > "The way of making use of it is not to allow the dependent arising > to take place; > cutting it off right at the moment of sense-contact, not allowing the > development of vedana, not allowing feelings of satisfaction or > dissatisfaction > to arise. ------- N: This all happens because of the right conditions at arahatship. There is no self who could think: I will not allow... There are merely conditioned dhammas rolling on. ------ Nina. #117121 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon > ... > > J: It is dhammas the understanding of which leads to enlightenment. The teaching does not teach the understanding of concepts as the path to enlightenment. From the brief extract quoted in your post, that may have been the point being made. > > Ph: Yes, agreed. Just wanted to make it clear, because there had been suggestions/statements on the list that concepts could not be object of panna. > =============== J: We are talking about correct intellectual understanding of dhammas. I'm not really sure about a proposition that concepts can be object of panna. That doesn't sound an appropriate or useful way of referring to pariyatti. > =============== > Ph: Right, concept of a dhamma is still object. Nina pointed out recently tgat she is more careful about saying concept. Maybe we can become aware of the difference between thinking about a dhamma as a concept, in a conventiinal meaning of thinking (rubbing the chin and saying "hmmm, what an interesting dhamma" )and a more fleeting thinking that is closer to awareness of a reality that has recently fallen away, a kind of thinking that can't be said to be mindfulness of characteristic as nimitta but is still closer to satipatthana than the "hmmm" musing above.....maybe. > =============== J: Yes, there are all kinds and manner of thinking about dhammas. Almost impossible to generalise though, I think. > =============== > Ph: The above could also take place here. Abhidhamma is not in the book, Nina ofyen says, what about the present reality as we're reading. It seems to me that there can be "hmmm" thinking as we read a sutta or an explanation of dhammas by a friend, and we would put down the book for this kind of musing about a concept, or thinking that is closer to clicking on charactetistics of realities, momentarily, but still not satipatthana and would take place with our eyes still on the page, probably. Just my theory, very much rubbing of my chin and hmming. > =============== J: The thing to keep in mind is that whatever we may be reading, if it's dhamma it's about that present moment. Jon #117122 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 11:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: yes pure insight does not need the development of jhanas (see quote below > from Visud) > =============== J: Thanks for the quote. It's nice to have some agreement for a change :-)) > =============== > > [J:] So right concentration of the Eightfold Path is the (momentary) unification of > >mind that is associated with (momentary) right view. > > > >*Mundane jhana citta* is absorbed in the subject of contemplation. It does not > >and cannot lead to awareness of a presently arising dhamma, no matter how > >strong the absorption. > > KO: they are the same as they are samadhi (concentration), the difference is > the level of development of samadhi. > =============== J: Well, all cittas are accompanied by samadhi, but that does not make all cittas the same :-)) And in this case one (jhana) is a citta while the other is a mental factor. Besides, the distinguishing characteristic of samatha (of which jhana is the highest level) is tranquillity not concentration. > =============== > KO: In jhanas, concentration is the being > developed as a basis of insight or in pure vipassana, the momentary > concentration that is a mental commitant to panna > =============== J: I have seen references in the texts to insight with jhana as basis, but not to jhana being developed as a basis of insight. To me the 2 ideas are not consistent with each other. To my understanding, jhana (i.e., jhana citta or the mental factors that are the jhana factors) will only become object of insight by conditions, and not by virtue of any idea of having insight with jhana as basis. Both the jhana and insight must have already been developed to a fairly high degree (at least, as far as it would seem from the instances of such in the texts are concerned). So unless there have already been moments of insight with jhana as basis, I would not consider it correct to say that in jhana concentration is being developed as a basis of insight. Must pause here. Next time, will discuss your Vism quote. Jon #117123 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 12:09 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Ken H > > Ph: I don't understand metaphorical in this context, please explain. > ----------- > > KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. Ph: Well, I can at least understand saying that the Buddha's teaching of conventional morality is descriptive rather than prescriptive, even if I don't agree with it (and maybe I do) but I can't understand how it can be a metaphor. But never mind, that's cool. My feeling these days is that I want to listen and ask questions to learn more about the present moment, so I will hopefully leave aside my usual stomping ground of the importance of conventional behaviour for creating conditions that permit better more patient listen. For example, these days there is obviously a lot of energy and patience for listening to difficult topics, I think it wouldn't be arising if there had been a failure in the big sila issue facing me recently. Sarah and pt gave me advice that was very conventional, for example, Sarah said stay away from that woman, what you two are doing is hurting each other and other people. That was very effective, that's what I wanted to hear. And it is one big reason that there is a lot of listening and reflecting these days. A sutta says that when there is freedom from remorse, there are better conditions for understanding. That seems to be true in my case. But honestly, not to worry. > > Ph: I think many teachings are to create conditions to prepare the mind. > ---------- > > KH: You might be right. But I take a hard line on this point, and regard the Dhamma as an entirely here-and-now teaching. > > --------------- > > Ph: As you know the Buddha taught a gradual teaching because he saw the mind of his listener was not prepared to absorb the teaching. > --------------- > > KH: Is that strictly correct? The Buddha taught a gradual path, but I think that refers to the way satipatthana gradually developed from weak to strong. I don't think the Buddha ever taught anything other than satipatthana. Ph: Ken, you have countless times been pointed toward the stock sutta passage that is used several or many times in the suttanta, for example, when the Buddha met a leper on the road he taught a gradual teaching on various topics...I just did a quick google search, here is the key passage, didn't check the quality of the translation: "Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." - Ud v.3 Ph: Just something for you to keep in mind, not interested in trying to convince you of anything. But note that the teaching particular to the Buddha, the teaching you insist on, is not delivered until the listeners mind is ready. I don't understand that point as clearly as I did a few months ago. I am back to thinking that it is good to learn Abdhidhamma as a way of better understanding the suttas, right from the beginning. Time spent at another forum made that very clear to me, people just seem to mess around with the suttanta. (Not true of people here, but it kind of was an eyeopener for me, such disregard of, disrespect for Abhidhamma, it woke me up.) > ----------------------- > > Ph: For example in suttas, when a > person's loved one died, he did not say "there is no (insert name), he simply did not. He used teachings such as "which (name) are you grieving?" to refer to countless past lives, or tge mustard seed teaching, get one from a house where ni one has died. It would be highly dubious to claim those women had developed panna that made a "there was no (name) conclusion, rgey needed to be helped in otger terms. It prepared rgeir mibds for deeper understanding, I think. > ---------------------- > > KH: I see it differently. I think the Buddha was well known as the teacher of conditionality and anatta. And so, even when someone was directed to look for mustard seeds, they would have known it was for the purpose of grasping the meaning of anatta. They would have known there was a metaphor in there somewhere. Ph: Well, I suppose it's possible that the world the Buddha moved in was full of householders who lived their lives with an understanding of anatta, thanks to him, As we know in Satipatthana sutta commentary it is said that the discourse was delivered in such and such a town because the people there all had a particular satipatthana that they practiced, and if a person asked a person "which of the foundations do you practice?" and the other person couldn' answer, it was shameful. (I guess nobody told them that it is wrong view to choose one of the satipatthanas as one's main field of awareness) So maybe you are right. Or maybe I am right. In any case, we both appreciate the central importance of seeing now, hearing now, etc. Metta, Phil #117124 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 12:20 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Jon > > > J: It is dhammas the understanding of which leads to enlightenment. The teaching does not teach the understanding of concepts as the path to enlightenment. From the brief extract quoted in your post, that may have been the point being made. > > > > Ph: Yes, agreed. Just wanted to make it clear, because there had been suggestions/statements on the list that concepts could not be object of panna. > > =============== > > J: We are talking about correct intellectual understanding of dhammas. I'm not really sure about a proposition that concepts can be object of panna. That doesn't sound an appropriate or useful way of referring to pariyatti. Ph: Sarah posted about a week ago that concept could be object of panna, for example, in recollection the virtues of the Buddha for samattha, or when dhammas are understand at the conceptual level in pariyatti. "Correct intellectual understanding of dhammas" involves understanding them as concepts, concepts of realities. Right? > > Ph: Right, concept of a dhamma is still object. Nina pointed out recently tgat she is more careful about saying concept. Maybe we can become aware of the difference between thinking about a dhamma as a concept, in a conventiinal meaning of thinking (rubbing the chin and saying "hmmm, what an interesting dhamma" )and a more fleeting thinking that is closer to awareness of a reality that has recently fallen away, a kind of thinking that can't be said to be mindfulness of characteristic as nimitta but is still closer to satipatthana than the "hmmm" musing above.....maybe. > > =============== > > J: Yes, there are all kinds and manner of thinking about dhammas. Almost impossible to generalise though, I think. Ph: I heard an interesting thing tonight that made me think I was on the right track here. A.S was talking about vitakka, she said there is vitakka between the moment of the seeing concsciousness falling away, for example, and the javanas arising. I don't know if that means vitakka accompanies investigation/determining cittas? Anyways, striking on the object, clicking on it, much different from what we used to think "right thinking" meant. Thanks Jon. Metta, Phil #117125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha. was: Khandhas and samsara nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 1-sep-2011, om 15:21 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > > >N: The first stage of tender insight is naama ruupa pariccheda > >~naa.na. Distinguishing the different characteristics of naama and > >ruupa. Naama and ruupa have characteristics that can be directly > >experienced, concepts don't. Of concepts one cannot say that they are > >impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. > > KO: When Buddha taught satipatthana, is never just about nama and > rupa alone. > I said a few times that before one reach purfication of views level > as you > mention, the object of satipatthana is never exclusively nama and > rupa. It > is both And also in supramundane which I believe known as in the > eye of wisdom > level, one sees in nama and rupa. > ------- N: Satipa.t.thaana is the development of understanding of naama and ruupa. Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana. Not conditioned realities. ------- > I have never seen any text that supports > before the purification of view level, the objects of satipatthana > must be a > dhamma or everything about satipatthana is nama and rupa. > > One should see commentary to Satipatthana as the authentic and > authority of > what Buddha said. These few passages are also echoed in the > Dispeller of > Delusion under the topic Classification of the four foundations of > Mindfullness. > > < from the big > and small members of the body, or of a man, or of a woman, apart > from such > things like the hair of the head and the hair of the body. > > There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived > materiality, in a body. > ------- N: Thus, the whole body we find so important consists only of ruupas, the four great elements (primary ruupas) and the other ruupas (derived ruupas). We read about body parts, because the Buddha taught by way of conventional truth and by way of ultimate truth, especially in the Application of Mindfulness of the Body. -------- > K: ....and the character of contemplating the collection of primary > and derived > materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a > plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist. >> > ------ N: The empty fist, very appropriate. He taught anattaness. -------. > > > K: In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there > is seen no body, > man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many > ways, in the > bare groups of things mentioned above. > ------- N: No person, no self in the body. The body is only ruupas arising and falling away. -------- > > > K: By the way you wrote before that the first stage of insight is not > >the above mentioned. In different contexts the counting is different. > >No contradiction. See Kh Sujin's Survey. > >Again, the objects of insight: read Kindred Sayings IV, all the time > >seeing, visible object, etc are mentioned. These are paramattha > dhammas. > >The Co to the satipa.t.thaana sutta: no man, woman in the objects of > >insight. Repeated all the time. > > KO: Visud is very clear on the stages and A Sujin as described in > your previous > email is not the way it is said in the Visud. > -------- > N: Vis. XX, 4: Herein, the plane of full-understanding of the known [~naata pari~n~na) extends from the Delimitation of Formations [N: first stage: naama/ruupa/ pariccheda ~naa.na] (Ch. XVIII) up to the Discernment of Conditions (Ch XIX) [N: the second stage]. See Ch XVIII for the first stage of tender insight. ------- N: The objects of satipa.t.thaana, or, the objects of insight are naama and ruupa. It is difficult to see our life as just naama and ruupa, but when insight is being developed it will become clearer. SIV, 52: <' "The world! The world!" is the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?' 'It crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called "the world" What crumbles away? The eye... objects...eye-consciousness... the ear... sounds...hearing-consciousness... etc. It crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called "the world" '. > There are only dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time. Vibhanga Ch 16, 762: <'Have different bases, have different objects' means: the base and object of eye-consciousness is (one thing); the base and object of ear consciousness is another...etc.> This reminds us to be mindful of the present object, only one object at a time. This helps to see that in the ultimate sense there are only naama and ruupa. ----- Nina. #117126 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha. was: Khandhas and samsara ashkenn2k Dear Nina >------- >N: Satipa.t.thaana is the development of understanding of naama and >ruupa. >Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana. Not conditioned realities. >N: Thus, the whole body we find so important consists only of ruupas, >the four great elements (primary ruupas) and the other ruupas >(derived ruupas). >We read about body parts, because the Buddha taught by way of >conventional truth and by way of ultimate truth, especially in the >Application of Mindfulness of the Body. >------ >N: The empty fist, very appropriate. He taught anattaness. >-------. >------- >N: No person, no self in the body. The body is only ruupas arising >and falling away. KO: Your interpretation of is not in line with the commentaries. the commentaries state two ways to comtemplate the collections, one in body parts and the other in materiality. The passages are clear. If the commentaries want to say it is just nama and rupa, it would say so. The commentaries are very clear that there are two collections. If you think the passage is not as so, please quote your text and not to your interpretation. <> >> >> >> K: By the way you wrote before that the first stage of insight is not >> >the above mentioned. In different contexts the counting is different. >> >No contradiction. See Kh Sujin's Survey. >> >Again, the objects of insight: read Kindred Sayings IV, all the time >> >seeing, visible object, etc are mentioned. These are paramattha >> dhammas. >> >The Co to the satipa.t.thaana sutta: no man, woman in the objects of >> >insight. Repeated all the time. >> >> KO: Visud is very clear on the stages and A Sujin as described in >> your previous >> email is not the way it is said in the Visud. >> -------- >> >N: Vis. XX, 4: Herein, the plane of full-understanding of the known >[~naata pari~n~na) extends from the Delimitation of Formations [N: >first stage: naama/ruupa/ pariccheda ~naa.na] (Ch. XVIII) up to the >Discernment of Conditions (Ch XIX) [N: the second stage]. >See Ch XVIII for the first stage of tender insight. >------- KO: I ask this question when did Buddha said that satipatthana is exclusively nama and rupa, what you quoted start from purifcation of view onwards. I am asking before this stage. And Buddha spoke and the commentaries described at length that before this stage, there is breathing, there is body parts and cementary. >N: The objects of satipa.t.thaana, or, the objects of insight are >naama and ruupa. It is difficult to see our life as just naama and >ruupa, but when insight is being developed it will become clearer. >SIV, 52: <' "The world! The world!" is the saying, lord. How far, >lord, does this saying go?' >'It crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called "the world" What >crumbles away? The eye... objects...eye-consciousness... the ear... >sounds...hearing-consciousness... etc. It crumbles away, brethren. >Therefore it is called "the world" '. > > >There are only dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time. >Vibhanga Ch 16, 762: <'Have different bases, have different objects' >means: the base and object of eye-consciousness is (one thing); the >base and object of ear consciousness is another...etc.> >This reminds us to be mindful of the present object, only one object >at a time. This helps to see that in the ultimate sense there are >only naama and ruupa. >----- KO: Now remember when Buddha said the world, you forget to say that mind objects can be a concept. In the commentary of MN1, when the description of earth, it is by four description. There is conventional earth, objective earth, - are all concepts. And it is due to the conceit, ditthi and craving that causes the perversion of preception, the object itself is not the cause of the perversion though they could have object conditioning effect. Ken O #117127 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> =============== >> > [J:] So right concentration of the Eightfold Path is the (momentary) >>unification of >> >> >mind that is associated with (momentary) right view. >> > >> >*Mundane jhana citta* is absorbed in the subject of contemplation. It does not >> >> >> >> >and cannot lead to awareness of a presently arising dhamma, no matter how >> >strong the absorption. >> >> KO: they are the same as they are samadhi (concentration), the difference is >> the level of development of samadhi. >> =============== > >J: Well, all cittas are accompanied by samadhi, but that does not make all >cittas the same :-)) And in this case one (jhana) is a citta while the other is >a mental factor. > >Besides, the distinguishing characteristic of samatha (of which jhana is the >highest level) is tranquillity not concentration. KO: this tranquility is not passadhi cetasikas Dispeller of Delusion pg 107, there are two tranquillity in the index, one for passadhi and the other for samantha 431 ..... By the term Right Concentration [are included] the three kinds of concentration beginning with that possessed of applied and sustained thought, concentration of consciousness, the concentration faculty, the concentration power, and the enlightenment factors of rapture, tranquillity, concentration and equanimity. pg 145 570 But this path is both vision and conduct because of the inclusion of Right View and Thinking by vision and of the remaining by states by conduct. Also it is both tranquillity (samatha) and insight because of the inclusion of those two by the vehicle of insight and of the remaining states by the vehicle of tranquillity >> =============== > >J: I have seen references in the texts to insight with jhana as basis, but not >to jhana being developed as a basis of insight. To me the 2 ideas are not >consistent with each other. > >To my understanding, jhana (i.e., jhana citta or the mental factors that are the > > >jhana factors) will only become object of insight by conditions, and not by >virtue of any idea of having insight with jhana as basis. Both the jhana and >insight must have already been developed to a fairly high degree (at least, as >far as it would seem from the instances of such in the texts are concerned). > >So unless there have already been moments of insight with jhana as basis, I >would not consider it correct to say that in jhana concentration is being >developed as a basis of insight. KO: Samatha bhavana is not jiust about development of samadhi, There must development of panna. Because development of samadhi into jhanas only achieve rebirth in rupa and arupa planes but not as a basis of insight. Basis of insight is only possible when there is clear comprehension. But many of the practitioners miss this point, their emphasis is on samadhi and not both. And I also believe in there are many dry insightors. There are also at that time of many achieve use jhanas as a basis of insight, in the chapter of supernormal powers, there are an Commentary to Satipatthana. <> > >Must pause here. Next time, will discuss your Vism quote. > KO: Anytime and I am still waiting for your quote for a very long time where in the text that development of satipatthana is only exclusive nama and rupa. Ken O #117128 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? moellerdieter Hi Vince, thanks for your feedback. you wrote: (D:' Well , one may say the identification of I /Self is described by 5 Khanda clinging , which -we may all know -represents in brief suffering /dukkha. > That parts of this clinging are changing (from desire to indifference for > example) does not mean , the identification (this I am, this is mine etc) > isn't existing. > In fact the 'What ' is explained by the Law of Dependent Origination , so > one may say the I/Self illusion is described by the chain of conditions , > a > process working until the chain is broken by enlightenment /arahantship. ) > I wonder how far you agree with me .. yes, I think everybody would agree. D: at best I would assume a yes , but .. ;-) as I would answer Bikkhu Samahita statement ' It is not an "I", "Me", "Self", "Soul", "Person", or any "Identity"!!!' : There is an identity which is described by (accumulated ) khanda attachment , though it is changing . Replacing identity with core or essence , would make more sense to me ( what core could be expected in I/Self delusion? No core to find in avijja sankhara..) V: An interesting side of the dependent origination is in the practical side, despite it is used massively for intellectual purposes. D: yes, unfortunately many do not understand to translate D.O. into practise V: And precisely because one is blind to check the development of all the chain at every moment (at least this is my case). In the final core of dependent origination there is a clear way to practice: D: as I understand , keeping the 12 link- background in mind , prior attention should be given to the vedana - tanha connection ( which has much to do with Right Effort), V:This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form." *SN 12.65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html there is a direct relation in keeping this understanding of co-dependence in the arising of nama-rupa and consciousness ("I"-"that") with getting detachment at the same moment of contact. Because before the attachment which is born after the contact there is only the co-arising, and therefore this is a door for the cease. "I" is born every time the "that" is born, and we ignore this when we are quickly flooded by the attachment born after the contact. D: without doubt very important to see/understand the rising and ceasing of phenomena /nama/rupa V: I think very useful what A.Buddhadasa explain about the importance of detachment at the moment of contact: "The way of making use of it is not to allow the dependent arising to take place; cutting it off right at the moment of sense-contact, not allowing the development of vedana, not allowing feelings of satisfaction or dissatisfaction to arise. When there is no production of vedana, then there is no birth of the craving and clinging that is the "I" and "mine". The "I" and "mine" lie right there at the birth of the craving and clinging; illusion lies right there. If at the moment of sense-contact when there is nothing but phassa, it is stopped just there, there is no way for "I" and "mine" to arise in truth-discerning awareness." D: I am not sure whether 'cutting it off at the moment of sense contact ' is the spot .Feeling /vedana arises as pleasant or unpleasant without our approval. (Another aspect of course is the avoidance of certain contacts.) But there is a possibility not to allow the emotion accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling which feeds the thirst /tanha, i.e. to let it pass by dispassion . That is of course easier said than done ... so there is the practise of (Maha) Satipatthana , the contemplation of the 4 frames , the skilful way to develop disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. with Metta Dieter #117129 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? moellerdieter Hi Ken H, thanks for your comment, you wrote: KH: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I don't think there ultimately *is* anything that lives many lives, do you? Everything that really exists does so for just one moment. D: I recall that the Buddha stated that all his teaching concern the suffering being... that there is ultimately only an arising and ceasing of mental and material phenomena is good to know but does not really help to overcome the cycle of birth and death in samsara...in reality there is a life story of each of us KH: According to my understanding, sutta references to "this I am "and "this is mine" are references to mana (conceit) and lobha (clinging) respectively. Only the third phrase of the trio, "this is my self," refers atta-ditthi (self view). D: best to look into the sutta references you mention , can you pls quote? KH: I would agree that the law of D O explained how there could be rebirth without a self that was reborn. But I would not agree that D O necessarily created the idea of a permanent self. (If that is what you are suggesting.) It's not just the atta-ditthi dhamma that is dependently originated; apart from nibbana, they all are. D: Stated by the Buddha , the law of D.O. explains the orgination of the whole mass of suffering , and furthermore it is stated that the way out is the 8fold Noble Path. Hence what brings you to the 'idea of a permanent self ' or even implying I could suggest so ? What is born again and again is avijja- sankhara , the delusioned kamma force (and its concequences) ...and that until enlightenment. I liked Bikkhu Samahita's suggestion : not a Who is born but a What.. with Metta Dieter #117130 From: Vince Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, you wrote: >> cutting it off right at the moment of sense-contact, not allowing the >> development of vedana, not allowing feelings of satisfaction or >> dissatisfaction > N: This all happens because of the right conditions at arahatship. > There is no self who could think: I will not allow... There are > merely conditioned dhammas rolling on. yes. I cited that text in the sense of not based in the own power of "I don't allow" but in keeping detachment at the moment of contact, knowing that "I" arise when "that" arise. I think it is not very different of what Sujin says that there is "seeing" instead "I see". Discovering of "seeing" needs detachment of "I see". best, Vince. #117131 From: Vince Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter you wrote: > D: I am not sure whether 'cutting it off at the moment of sense contact ' > is the spot .Feeling /vedana arises as pleasant or unpleasant without our > approval. > (Another aspect of course is the avoidance of certain contacts.) > But there is a possibility not to allow the emotion accompanied by pleasant > or unpleasant feeling which feeds the thirst /tanha, i.e. to let it pass by > dispassion . > That is of course easier said than done ... so there is the practise of > (Maha) Satipatthana , the contemplation of the 4 frames , the skilful way to > develop disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. I think you right. I'm reading these days a book from Bhikkhu Analayo in where it seems there are different interpretations even philosophical differences to understand sati and then also the practice. At least I understand Buddhadasa talks of detachment of "me" at the moment of contact. As I wrote to Nina in the other message, I believe this is not very different of the "seeing" instead "I see" taught by Sujin. Qhat can be the "seeing" but the same co-arising?. best, Vince. #117132 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 9:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? philofillet ---Hi Vince, (andDieter and all) As I wrote to Nina in the other message, I believe this is not very > different of the "seeing" instead "I see" taught by Sujin. I don't think A Sujin teaches "seeing" in a way different from, say, SN 35 suttas on the way eye, visible object/form and contact condition seeing consciousness . Where does the Buddha teach "I see?" Do modern teaches encourage understanding in terms of "I see?" Thanks. Metta, Phil p.s haven't read tge other msg yet, aplogies if you already explained there #117133 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 9:41 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Ken H > > > Ph: I don't understand metaphorical in this context, please explain. > > ----------- > > > > KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. Ph: I find this kind of intriguing. Kusala (or akusala citta) gives rise to the rupas physical intimation that moves other rupas towards "guving alms.". Wouldn't that action be sone kind of result of citta rather than a metaphor of it. There are countless cittas involved in an act of giving, how could that act be a metaphor for one of them, isn't it more about processes of cause and result, paccayas etc. Still all dhammas, I agree. Metta, Phil > Ph: Well, I can at least understand saying that the Buddha's teaching of conventional morality is descriptive rather than prescriptive, even if I don't agree with it (and maybe I do) but I can't understand how it can be a metaphor. But never mind, that's cool. My feeling these days is that I want to listen and ask questions to learn more about the present moment, so I will hopefully leave aside my usual not to worry. > > > > > Ph: I think many teachings are to create conditions to prepare the KH: You might be right. But I take a hard line on this point, and regard the Dhamma as an entirely here-and-now teaching. > > > > --------------- > > > Ph: As you know the Buddha taught a gradual teaching because he saw the mind of his listener was not prepared to absorb the teaching. > > --------------- > > > > KH: Is that strictly correct? The Buddha taught a gradual path, but I think that refers to the way satipatthana gradually developed from weak to strong. I don't think the Buddha ever taught anything other than satipatthana. > > Ph: Ken, you have countless times been pointed toward the stock sutta passage that is used several or many times in the suttanta, for example, when the Buddha met a leper on the road he taught a gradual teaching on various topics...I just did a quick google search, here is the key passage, didn't check the quality of the translation: > > > "Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." - Ud v.3 > > Ph: Just something for you to keep in mind, not interested in trying to convince you of anything. But note that the teaching particular to the Buddha, the teaching you insist on, is not delivered until the listeners mind is ready. I don't understand that point as clearly as I did a few months ago. I am back to thinking that it is good to learn Abdhidhamma as a way of better understanding the suttas, right from the beginning. Time spent at another forum made that very clear to me, people just seem to mess around with the suttanta. (Not true of people here, but it kind of was an eyeopener for me, such disregard of, disrespect for Abhidhamma, it woke me up.) > > ----------------------- > > > Ph: For example in suttas, when a > > person's loved one died, he did not say "there is no (insert name), he simply did not. He used teachings such as "which (name) are you grieving?" to refer to countless past lives, or tge mustard seed teaching, get one from a house where ni one has died. It would be highly dubious to claim those women had developed panna that made a "there was no (name) conclusion, rgey needed to be helped in otger terms. It prepared rgeir mibds for deeper understanding, I think. > > ---------------------- > > > > KH: I see it differently. I think the Buddha was well known as the teacher of conditionality and anatta. And so, even when someone was directed to look for mustard seeds, they would have known it was for the purpose of grasping the meaning of anatta. They would have known there was a metaphor in there somewhere. > > Ph: Well, I suppose it's possible that the world the Buddha moved in was full of householders who lived their lives with an understanding of anatta, thanks to him, As we know in Satipatthana sutta commentary it is said that the discourse was delivered in such and such a town because the people there all had a particular satipatthana that they practiced, and if a person asked a person "which of the foundations do you practice?" and the other person couldn' answer, it was shameful. (I guess nobody told them that it is wrong view to choose one of the satipatthanas as one's main field of awareness) So maybe you are right. Or maybe I am right. In any case, we both appreciate the central importance of seeing now, hearing now, etc. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > #117134 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? moellerdieter Dear Vince, you wrote: 'I think you right. I'm reading these days a book from Bhikkhu Analayo in where it seems there are different interpretations even philosophical differences to understand sati and then also the practice.' D: I am wondéring whether Ven. Buddhadasa always taught 'cutting it off at the moment of sense contact '. I have read some of his lectures but it didn't attract my attention until you mentioned it. Nevertheless I think he has done a lot to support the understanding of the practical side of the Law of D.O. You are totally right , we are facing plenty of different interpretations . Finally we are on our own to judge as we are in the practise of the 8fold Noble Path. Concerning sati , I like it simple : sati= to know what is going on .. In respect to the 7th step or Maha Satipatthana Sutta there are obviously different interpretations . I.M.H.O. the development of sati in a skillful way requires to train the contemplation of the 4 frameworks as described in the sutta. V: At least I understand Buddhadasa talks of detachment of "me" at the moment of contact. As I wrote to Nina in the other message, I believe this is not very different of the "seeing" instead "I see" taught by Sujin. D: agreed , it is the I relation /involvement which brings the trouble. However contact without sensation is neutral , only the quality of feeling provides the possibility to be indifferent towards its aspects of pleasant -unplesant. The difficulty to realize it can be easily seen by the (10) fetters to be overcome on the way to nobility. V: Qhat can be the "seeing" but the same co-arising?. D: not sure whether I got the question right.. as long as I have to take care that this I isn't involved ( the phenomena being impersonal/anatta )it is still not the pure awareness of seeing, hearing etc. , but seemingly a need for practise.. with Metta Dieter #117135 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 8:29 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India, I a. philofillet Hi all I enjoyed the following combination of a familiar stirring sutta with an encouraging sight from daily life. Moment by moment there can be and often is the momentary replacing ( conditioned by sati, virya and other factors arising due to conditions, not because we want it to be so) of mental states akin to foul-smelling. abandoned public toilets by bright, tidy gardens that add to the wellbeing of ourselves and the people around us. Metta, Phil Pilgrimage in India, October/November 2004. > > Lessons in Detachment. > > Chapter 1. > > The Holy Places. > > ³Abandon evil, O monks! One can abandon evil, O monks!If it were impossible > to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, > therefore I say ŒAbandon evil!¹ > If this abandoning of evil would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask > you to abandon it. But as the abandoning of evil brings weal and happiness, > therefore I say, Œabandon evil!¹ > Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. If it > were impossible to cultivate the good, I would not ask you to do so. But as > it can be done, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ > If this cultivation of the good would bring harm and suffering, I would not > ask you to cultivate it. But as the cultivation of the good brings weal and > happiness, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ ² > (Gradual Sayings Book of the twos, II, 9, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, > Wheel 155-158.) > These compassionate words of the Buddha show that also in his lifetime > people must have struggled with the depth and complexity of his teachings > and had to be encouraged on the right path. How much more so in our days! > > During one of our long and strenuous bus rides through India Lodewijk > recited this sutta to our friends. > > Lodewijk and I started our pilgrimage in New Delhi where we visited Kuru, > the place where the Buddha preached the Satipatthåna Sutta. We climbed up to > the rocks to look at the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Here I read aloud > to Lodewijk the Satipatthåna Sutta. Before, this place was a heap of dirt > and public toilet, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of foreign > affairs, had it restored and fenced in. Trees were planted and now it has > become a peaceful place where one can reflect on the Satipatthåna Sutta. > **** > Nina. > #117136 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wishing luck? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil, and all) - In a message dated 8/28/2011 5:31:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Phil, Just back from a trip, and of course we thought of you when hearing about Long Island. Good wishes from both of us, and do not answer my mail, you have so many. But remember Dhamma as Azita said. In fact we never know what happens next moment. We think about 'our vipaaka' but who knows? We cannot tell from moment to moment what object presents itself through which doorway. Life is one moment of citta, only one object at a time. Will there be aversion, or equanimity, who knows, it depends on conditions. ============================== Thanks, Nina. Just 2 hours ago our electicity came back on! (This was our 7th day with no power!) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117137 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/28/2011 7:16:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: You seem to be suggesting that this passage should be read as meaning that some (specified?) level of metta development is a prerequisite to the arising of awareness/insight. I'd be interested to hear your further comments on it. ================================= I think I may have already replied, Jon, that I do NOT think that metta bhavana is requisite for the development of pa~n~na. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117138 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wishing luck? upasaka_howard Believe me, Jon, 7 days w/o power was not like surfing!! LOL! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/28/2011 7:18:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Nina and Howard Nina, good to see you back. Howard, hope you are spared from any damage. As regards Nina's mention of Long Island, the only reference I've seen to that spot in particular was a news item showing how much the surfers were enjoying the larger than usual swell :-)) Jon PS Good reminders, Nina. Thanks. #117139 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 12:33 pm Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) ptaus1 Hi RobE, > RE: I appreciate the explanation, which makes sense. However, the whole idea that panna and the hearing of Dhamma are strictly the result of past life accumulations seems very far removed from any development we do in this lifetime, pt: I think a more relevant conclusion to be drawn as relating to practice right now is the conditioned nature of arising of panna, sense-consciousness, etc. All conditioned, right now. So, the argument is not about establishing a scientific/philosophical truth in the sense of "rain comes when vapor condenses" ala "present panna is conditioned by past panna", but rather, it's about encouraging actual arising of panna now - understanding the conditioned nature of whatever is the object at the moment. If that happens, the sutta/abhidhamma/discussion has served its true purpose. As for whether we can then post-facto claim that this moment of panna was conditioned by some other past moment in the present or past lifetimes - the statement has no practical use unless it is to point towards conditionality and anatta nature of whatever arises. > RE: and does not seem to be restricted in that way in the explanations in sutta - though I may just not have seen the relevant suttas. It's a very, once again, non-active approach to understanding, as far as this lifetime is concerned, and once again gets into the difficult territory of interpreting the teachings on what constitutes practice, now, in this lifetime which is where we currently are. pt: My conclusion is that encouraging understanding now is very much an active approach and all about the practice, right now, rather than approaching the subject philosophically and then trying to practice in order to make more of panna arise at some point in the future. So, imo, suttas and all other texts are primarily meant to encourage understanding now - so kusala citta now. If on the other hand they are taken as a philosophy, something to intellectualize about, and then try to implement it in the future in order to gain something in the future - well that's (usually) akusala citta now, simply because it's not kusala citta now. > RE: It covers it, from the point of view of this theoretical framework, but does not necessarily connect that view of how things develop to a source in sutta, which would be good to see if it exists. pt: Hm, to me every time a sutta says that this is anatta, and that is anicca, etc, imo in essence it's describing an instance of insight/practice right now. In abhidhamma lingo, that is exactly equal to saying that javana citta arises with panna, which is conditioned by past panna among other things. So that's just another description of what's arising right now, using a bit different lingo, again meant to encourage the arising of understanding right now that sees anatta, anicca, conditionality, etc. If you're looking for more theoretical/post-facto statements about how wisdom develops, there's that sutta that's often quoted here about hearing and considering, then there's the one about six(?) purifications that was the basis for Visuddhimagga structure, and then there are the gradual teaching suttas. Sorry, can't look for sutta numbers now. > RE: If in fact that is the case, then any additional purposeful effort would in fact also be arising on its own, since there is no other mechanism to make it arise, other than whatever accumulations and tendencies have led to that moment of practice/effort. pt: Yes, I think that's right. So, when we put it that way, then the best conclusion to be drawn, as applicable to the moment right now, is that whatever arises now is conditioned and anatta. Such conclusion hopefully encourages panna right now that then arises with right effort automatically, knows the difference between kusala and akusala, etc. However, if the conclusion we draw out of the discussion is that purposeful effort is better than the non-purposeful one, or the other way around, then what we have encouraged in the present is not more understanding but simply more intellectualizing, most probably akusala. Do you see the difference as applicable to the arising of understanding right now? > > pt: To give an analogy, say you just learned that a road sign with 60 on it means that's the top speed (ala that anger is akusala). From then on, every time you see the speed sign (you notice the anger), you'll automatically know what it is (top speed - or anger is akusala). If you're actually seeing it that is. If you're not, (like because of talking to a passenger), then you won't notice the speed limit (or that dosa is akusala). > > RE: Having been made aware of the speed limit, if one were to notice that they are going over the speed limit repeatedly, would it be worthwhile to remind oneself not to do that, and/or to actually practice watching the speedometer while accelerating to make sure you don't go over [both examples of concerted effort applied to practice,] or would you take the approach that one should be more natural about it, and having seen the sign, and seeing it again from time to time in the natural course of driving, trust that eventually, without additional purposeful effort or reminders, one will eventually stop going over 60? Let me know if you think that's a straw man, but I think it's a pretty fair comparison of the alternate approaches. pt: Rather than a strawman, I think now it's just taking the analogy too far. The purpose of the example was to again draw attention to the practice right now - how understnading is encouraged to arise right now - thus being kusala citta with right effort right now. If otoh I'm trying to make the understanding arise sometimes in the future by doing something, that means there's no understanding now, so then there's akusala citta now, so I'm in fact encouraging akusala NOW, not kusala. Do you see the difference? > RE: Well I don't know about "purposeful waiting" per se, but I think there is an understanding or belief that if one keeps reading and considering, that this will in fact lead to the path developing. If one did not think this, what good would the reading and considering do? pt: I think the problem is that you interpret the reading thing in the same way that you interpret the meditation thing, both of which are not useful interpretations imo. Consider it this way - if someone believes that reading (an activity) is the path, then imo that's the same as believing that meditation (an activity) is the path. Both of these imo would be a present-moment instance of wrong practice - silabata something something - I forget the spelling, or basically, presently arising belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals. Now, of course, there's that sutta which says that wisdom develops through hearing and considering (reading and considering in our case), but, if you take it as prescription, you end up with rites and rituals again. If you take it as description, then imo it's a post-facto statement about how wisdom develops. So, in practical terms, why do you or anybody else here read about the Dhamma? Because of believing that reading (an activity) is the path? I don't think so, though it's possible of course. For me, I read because I find the Dhamma very interesting. Sometimes, it's not, as in, sometimes it's more interesting to watch a movie. Or sometimes, it's more interesting to sleep. But often Dhamma is most interesting. At those instances, I'm not even concerned with whether reading is the path or not. The issue seems inapplicable to be honest. And I guess you probably approach reading in exactly the same way, just becuase you're interested in it. Not because you believe it will bring you closer to some sort of a goal. > RE: So I think there is a sense of purpose or intention in refraining from additional practice of a more forced kind, while continuing to read and consider as path activities. pt: I think that's your belief that has very little to do with how things really are for some people here. It's just that what you call "meditation" has been found to be ineffective (or maybe simply uninteresting) by some people here, so they don't do what you do. To say that they are not doing it on purpose or forcefully is going too far. > RE: I also don't agree that there is an automatic application of something once learned, that it is out of our hands. There is no area of life where the skill of doing something is not improved by regular practice. It is only here that it is somehow thought that not practicing improves the result. That is like saying "I will only practice piano when I feel like it, otherwise it is forced and unnatural." Yes, it is somewhat forced and unnatural, but that's actually the nature of real practice. It doesn't happen by itself just from getting the information, it only happens with concerted effort. pt: Perhaps re-read some of Jon's replies to Alex on whether learning a skill can be equated to the arising and development of understanding. My impression was that the two cannot be equated, so all the analogies in that vein are misleading and do not help development of understanding. > RE: And that's the big argument around here about meditation. Do you do a regular practice where you apply the principles of Dhamma, or not, and thus develop the skills of mindfulness and samatha. Can they be developed by practice or not? There are only two sides to that issue, and the argument against practice to develop those qualities like any other skill, physical or mental, are not convincing to me. pt: Well, the issue goes a lot deeper than the two options you propose. For starters, what is an instance of understanding? And how it comes to arise? > RE: I know that's the common view around dsg anyway. I'd have to do further research but I don't believe that's the case. My main evidence at the moment is the detailed instructions in concentration and mindfulness meditation given by the Buddha in anapanasati and satipatthana suttas, and the followup instructions in these areas given by Buddhaghosa. Those are clear enough that practice has been going on since the inception of Buddhism, and the arguments that these were descriptions of monks "already practicing" in that way do not seem correct to me at all. The language of the suttas is clearly showing the steps to developing these qualities through meditation and they are systematic and clearly practicable in the way they are presented. pt: ok, that's certainly a popular interpretation now. > > > RE: Such meditation involves a certain degree of concentration and intention, and then continues to focus on arising moments and their nature as they arise. > > > > pt: well, everything involves a certain degree of concentration and intention. These are cetasikas that arise with every citta. the real issue imo is whether these are wholesome or not, and how does one know they are indeed wholesome or not. Knowing that in the present moment is in fact what I'd call "meditation". > > RE: I would not agree. There are skills and practices and then there is the issue of whether the arising moment is wholesome or not, but the wholesomeness of the moment does not speak for or against the skills developed in practice. I know this is another area of disagreement. I can play the violin angrily or sweetly, but that doesn't make me a good or bad violinist - my skill level does. And mindfulness and the ability to reduce agitation and create calm and to concentrate are all skills. pt: Again I'd advise discussing this issue with Jon regarding how useful it is to consider development of understanding as equal to development of a mundane skill. > RE: We can use the kusala issue as a reason to never do anything, but I think it's a red herring, speaking of straw men. :-) pt: Using the kusala issue as a reason to never do anything - that's your misinterpretation of what people here are trying to tell you. As long as you stick to it, you won't gain much from the discussions here. > > > RE: Every adherent to meditation practice also agrees with the understanding of moments arising in everyday life and that moments of insight can occur at any time, and cannot be controlled. > > > > pt: Are you sure? I was fully into trying to make this or that mental state arise. In fact I think I'm still trying to control my mental states most of the time whether in or out of meditation. > > RE: Whatever skills there are that lead to skillful mental states, they are developed gradually. The point is whether they can be practiced purposefully or not. And I think they can. pt: Which then to me means (based on my own experience) that like me, you also have very little understanding of what's the difference between akusala and kusala, hence we're like two blind people discussing Picasso. Or was it Rembrandt? I guess it makes no real difference to blind people. Best wishes pt #117140 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 12:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ----- >> KH: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I don't think there ultimately *is* anything that lives many lives, do you? Everything that really exists does so for just one moment. > D: I recall that the Buddha stated that all his teaching concern the suffering being... that there is ultimately only an arising and ceasing of mental and material phenomena is good to know but does not really help to overcome the cycle of birth and death in samsara...in reality there is a life story of each of us ----- KH: If, as you rightly say, there is ultimately only the rising and ceasing of phenomena, what need is there to overcome anything? As the Vism. says: "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found." So, where's the problem? ---------------------- >> KH: According to my understanding, sutta references to "this I am "and "this is mine" are references to mana (conceit) and lobha (clinging) respectively. Only the third phrase of the trio, "this is my self," refers to atta-ditthi (self view). > D: best to look into the sutta references you mention , can you pls quote? ----------------------- KH: It's in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta and I assume other places, but I don't have any references. ------------------------------ >> KH: I would agree that the law of D O explained how there could be rebirth without a self that was reborn. But I would not agree that D O necessarily created the idea of a permanent self. (If that is what you are suggesting.) It's not just the atta-ditthi dhamma that is dependently originated; apart from nibbana, they all are. > D: Stated by the Buddha , the law of D.O. explains the orgination of the wholemass of suffering , and furthermore it is stated that the way out is the 8fold Noble Path. Hence what brings you to the 'idea of a permanent self ' or even implying I could suggest so ? ----------------------------- KH: Sorry, I thought you were saying the idea of self was inseparable from all conditioned existence. I should have read it more carefully! ----------------- > D: What is born again and again is avijja- sankhara, the delusioned kamma force (and its concequences) ...and that until enlightenment. > I liked Bikkhu Samahita's suggestion : not a Who is born but a What.. ----------------- KH: I am sure you are both right. It's just that when we try to express the Dhamma in our own words (as we do in Dhamma discussions) we are liable to be misunderstood. It happens to me; I dig a large hole and someone has to get me out of it. (Hi Jon). :-) Ken H #117141 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/1/2011 9:06:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: The point is that a mother or stuffed elephant cannot be seen, only thought about. Only colour can be seen, only hardness etc can be touched. That is radical enough for me, for now =============================== I quite agree with you on this. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117142 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 4:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mettaa. was: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi epsteinrob Hi Nina, and Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 30-aug-2011, om 14:12 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > > Howard: No electric power, and not easy for me to reply by cell > > phone. I'll > > > just reply to what you wrote at the end: I do NOT mean to imply > > that the > > > Brahma viharas are requisite, but only useful means. > ------ > N: not easy for you, I think of the refrigerator and all the food in it. Same from me, Howard. I hope your electricity has been restored! > I would like to add to this discussion about mettaa just a few more > words: In Kh Sujin's Perfections it has been stressed how important > the perfection of mettaa is, it never is enough. I remember that she > said in conversations: it never is enough. She explains that we may > have developed the other perfections such as patience, generosity, > but we should ask ourselves: did we perhaps neglect mettaa? She also > describes the other Brahma vihaaras, and these are very important. I > know that you agree. I am happy to hear this. I wonder how the Brahma viharas, esp. metta, fit into the scheme of realization. Is it just that they are kusala, or are there specific qualities being developed that are necessary for enlightenment? Why are they so important? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #117143 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 5:40 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > I would put it this way: > Mundane samatha/jhana and right concentration of the Eightfold Path involve different dhammas. Furthermore, the development of one does not necessarily require the (separate) development of the other. > > *Right concentration of the Eightfold Path* is the mental factor that accompanies a moment of (true) awareness of/insight into a presently arising dhamma. > ... > In the first of those posts there is this passage from the Vism: > "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has the characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." > > So right concentration of the Eightfold Path is the (momentary) unification of mind that is associated with (momentary) right view. How do you reconcile the above with the following from the sutta pitaka: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk...enters & remains in the first jhana...enters & remains in the second jhana...enters & remains in the third jhana...enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness... This is called right concentration." - SN 45.8 Note that Buddha defines right concentration *as* the 4 jhanas, and also defines the 4th jhana as the purity -- the culmination -- of both equanimity AND mindfulness. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #117144 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wishing luck? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-sep-2011, om 1:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thanks, Nina. Just 2 hours ago our electicity came back on! (This was > our 7th day with no power!) ------ N: How did you manage to eat? And using candles, just like in the Buddha's time, no electricity. Nina. #117145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi nilovg Hi Howard, Nice to have you back after you could only connect with a few words at a time. Op 4-sep-2011, om 1:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I think I may have already replied, Jon, that I do NOT think that > metta bhavana is requisite for the development of pa~n~na. ------- N: There is a connection. When pa~n~naa develops, one understands better conditions for naama and ruupa. One takes insults less personal, and naturally mettaa develops more. It is all by conditions. ------ Nina. #117146 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mettaa. was: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-sep-2011, om 8:03 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I am happy to hear this. I wonder how the Brahma viharas, esp. > metta, fit into the scheme of realization. Is it just that they are > kusala, or are there specific qualities being developed that are > necessary for enlightenment? Why are they so important? ------- N: You think less and less of yourself. More detachment. Self is so important to us, and all the perfections do help to have a decrease of this. Through the perfections there will be a lessening of defilements. You do not think to gain anything for yourself, but to have less defilements. Nina. #117147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) nilovg Op 4-sep-2011, om 9:40 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Jon: > So right concentration of the Eightfold Path is the > (momentary) unification of mind that is associated with (momentary) > right view. > > Rob: How do you reconcile the above with the following from the > sutta pitaka: > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a > monk...enters & remains in the first jhana...enters & remains in > the second jhana...enters & remains in the third jhana...enters & > remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness... > This is called right concentration." > - SN 45.8 > > Note that Buddha defines right concentration *as* the 4 jhanas, and > also defines the 4th jhana as the purity -- the culmination -- of > both equanimity AND mindfulness. -------- N: Yes, I know it is hard to understand this text, we often discussed this with Kh Sujin. The Buddha included all levels of samaadhi, also the samaadhi of those who had developed jhaana. It does not mean we all have to develop jhaana. There are also tetxs about right concentration that do not mention jhaana. ------ Nina. #117148 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 3-sep-2011, om 21:00 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > Concerning sati , I like it simple : sati= to know what is going > on .. ------ N: Not easy to explain what sati is, Lodewijk often wonders about it. I would say, sati is aware of one of the paramattha dhammas appearing through one of the six doors, without having to name it, or thinking about it. When one says to know what is going on, it could be misunderstood. When walking, we know that we are walking, but this is not sati, it is thinking of a whole story about me walking. We have to know the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts or stories, I believe. Nina. #117149 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wishing luck? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/4/2011 7:37:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 4-sep-2011, om 1:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thanks, Nina. Just 2 hours ago our electicity came back on! (This was > our 7th day with no power!) ------ N: How did you manage to eat? ------------------------------------------------- We did go out a couple evenings to local restaurants that had power, but we mostly depended on nonperishable food items at home such as peanut bars, crackers, and cold cereal without milk. (And I made several trips to an open Starbucks for coffee!! LOL!) -------------------------------------------------- And using candles, just like in the Buddha's time, no electricity. --------------------------------------------------- :-) Well, we did slightly better than that, making use of borrowed, battery-powered lanterns for a little ambient room lighting and flashlights for reading. (And I meditated, which utilized no light except for what meager light of wisdom there might have been!! LOL!) --------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117150 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/4/2011 7:41:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Nice to have you back after you could only connect with a few words at a time. -------------------------------------------- :-) Thanks!! ---------------------------------------------- Op 4-sep-2011, om 1:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I think I may have already replied, Jon, that I do NOT think that > metta bhavana is requisite for the development of pa~n~na. ------- N: There is a connection. When pa~n~naa develops, one understands better conditions for naama and ruupa. One takes insults less personal, and naturally mettaa develops more. It is all by conditions. ----------------------------------------------- Oh, yes, I quite agree. Metta and karuna and mudita foster calm, and these help foster wisdom - and wisdom fosters patience, acceptance, loving kindness, and, in fact, all wholesome conditions! ------------------------------------------------ ------ Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117151 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 10:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Howard > > The point is that a mother or stuffed elephant cannot be seen, only > thought about. Only colour can be seen, only hardness etc can be touched. That is > radical enough for me, for now > =============================== > I quite agree with you on this. It's already a deepening of understanding, in my opinion. Liberating mental processes from distorted processes must start gradually, with this kind of intellectual understanding, as well as with, of course, mindfulness of the seeing, or of the thinking on what was seen, or of hardness, or of the thinking about what was felt. I'm appreciating that this kind of mindfulness of dhammas develops, ever so gradually, a la adze handle. And whether I still believe beings (rather than persons) exist or whether I proclaim that there are no beings, all that matters is the moment by moment development of awareness of dhammas, it puts an end to arguments, no more arguments as I heard A.s say. Each moment when there is awareness of a dhamma is an island in the sea of concepts, and no arguments reach the shore of that island... Thanks for alliowing me to wax on. By tge way, Howard, didn't you find a week without electricity was a blessing in disguise in some ways? Did you find the hindrances were less obstructive when you meditated? I tend to feel the internet and television run counter to meditation. I still believe the Buddha preached physical isolation and what you went through was a kind of physical seclusion...I think. Maybe you were surrounded by famiky members and neighbours who were upset by the situation... Metta, Phil Metta, Phil #117152 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 10:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi again, Meant to write "distorted perceptions" not "distorted processes." phil #117153 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 11:11 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Ken H > > > KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. > > Ph: I find this kind of intriguing. Kusala (or akusala citta) gives rise to the rupas physical intimation that moves other rupas towards "guving alms.". Wouldn't that action be sone kind of result of citta rather than a metaphor of it. There are countless cittas involved in an act of giving, how could that act be a metaphor for one of them, isn't it more about processes of cause and result, paccayas etc. Still all dhammas... Ph: I thought about what I wrote above when I came across this passage from the Satipatthaba Sutta comnentary (Soma Thera p.96): "The Elder Tipitaka Mahaa Siiva indeed said: Who, after walkung or exercising long in the ambulatory, stands and reflects: 'Tge bodily and mental things which existed during the time of exercises on the ambukatory ended just there on the ambulatory' is called a doer of clear comprehension in walking." If you have this commentary and read and reflect on the section on clear comprehension of modes of comportment I think you might begin to appreciate that saying that action is phrased in conventional terms doesn't mean that a deed is a metaphor for a citta but is an operation of cittas tgat arise and fall away, but thete is tge deed, carried out by these processes of nama and rupa, they just have to be understood as occuring void of a self at tge center of them. If I understand you correctly, you are saying there are no deeds, I think that must be wrong view if some kind, though I'm not sure by any means. I probably don't understand you yet. Metta, Phil -- the Buddha ever taught anything other than satipatthana. > > > > Ph: Ken, you have countless times been pointed toward the stock sutta passage that is used several or many times in the suttanta, for example, when the Buddha met a leper on the road he taught a gradual teaching on various topics...I just did a quick google search, here is the key passage, didn't check the quality of the translation: > > > > > > "Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." - Ud v.3 > > > > Ph: Just something for you to keep in mind, not interested in trying to convince you of anything. But note that the teaching particular to the Buddha, the teaching you insist on, is not delivered until the listeners mind is ready. I don't understand that point as clearly as I did a few months ago. I am back to thinking that it is good to learn Abdhidhamma as a way of better understanding the suttas, right from the beginning. Time spent at another forum made that very clear to me, people just seem to mess around with the suttanta. (Not true of people here, but it kind of was an eyeopener for me, such disregard of, disrespect for Abhidhamma, it woke me up.) > > > ----------------------- > > > > Ph: For example in suttas, when a > > > person's loved one died, he did not say "there is no (insert name), he simply did not. He used teachings such as "which (name) are you grieving?" to refer to countless past lives, or tge mustard seed teaching, get one from a house where ni one has died. It would be highly dubious to claim those women had developed panna that made a "there was no (name) conclusion, rgey needed to be helped in otger terms. It prepared rgeir mibds for deeper understanding, I think. > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > KH: I see it differently. I think the Buddha was well known as the teacher of conditionality and anatta. And so, even when someone was directed to look for mustard seeds, they would have known it was for the purpose of grasping the meaning of anatta. They would have known there was a metaphor in there somewhere. > > > > Ph: Well, I suppose it's possible that the world the Buddha moved in was full of householders who lived their lives with an understanding of anatta, thanks to him, As we know in Satipatthana sutta commentary it is said that the discourse was delivered in such and such a town because the people there all had a particular satipatthana that they practiced, and if a person asked a person "which of the foundations do you practice?" and the other person couldn' answer, it was shameful. (I guess nobody told them that it is wrong view to choose one of the satipatthanas as one's main field of awareness) So maybe you are right. Or maybe I am right. In any case, we both appreciate the central importance of seeing now, hearing now, etc. > > > > > > > > Metta, > > > > Phil > > > #117154 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 11:12 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Ken H > > > KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. > > Ph: I find this kind of intriguing. Kusala (or akusala citta) gives rise to the rupas physical intimation that moves other rupas towards "guving alms.". Wouldn't that action be sone kind of result of citta rather than a metaphor of it. There are countless cittas involved in an act of giving, how could that act be a metaphor for one of them, isn't it more about processes of cause and result, paccayas etc. Still all dhammas... Ph: I thought about what I wrote above when I came across this passage from the Satipatthaba Sutta comnentary (Soma Thera p.96): "The Elder Tipitaka Mahaa Siiva indeed said: Who, after walkung or exercising long in the ambulatory, stands and reflects: 'Tge bodily and mental things which existed during the time of exercises on the ambukatory ended just there on the ambulatory' is called a doer of clear comprehension in walking." If you have this commentary and read and reflect on the section on clear comprehension of modes of comportment I think you might begin to appreciate that saying that action is phrased in conventional terms doesn't mean that a deed is a metaphor for a citta but is an operation of cittas tgat arise and fall away, but thete is tge deed, carried out by these processes of nama and rupa, they just have to be understood as occuring void of a self at tge center of them. If I understand you correctly, you are saying there are no deeds, I think that must be wrong view if some kind, though I'm not sure by any means. I probably don't understand you yet. Metta, Phil -- the Buddha ever taught anything other than satipatthana. > > > > Ph: Ken, you have countless times been pointed toward the stock sutta passage that is used several or many times in the suttanta, for example, when the Buddha met a leper on the road he taught a gradual teaching on various topics...I just did a quick google search, here is the key passage, didn't check the quality of the translation: > > > > > > "Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." - Ud v.3 > > > > Ph: Just something for you to keep in mind, not interested in trying to convince you of anything. But note that the teaching particular to the Buddha, the teaching you insist on, is not delivered until the listeners mind is ready. I don't understand that point as clearly as I did a few months ago. I am back to thinking that it is good to learn Abdhidhamma as a way of better understanding the suttas, right from the beginning. Time spent at another forum made that very clear to me, people just seem to mess around with the suttanta. (Not true of people here, but it kind of was an eyeopener for me, such disregard of, disrespect for Abhidhamma, it woke me up.) > > > ----------------------- > > > > Ph: For example in suttas, when a > > > person's loved one died, he did not say "there is no (insert name), he simply did not. He used teachings such as "which (name) are you grieving?" to refer to countless past lives, or tge mustard seed teaching, get one from a house where ni one has died. It would be highly dubious to claim those women had developed panna that made a "there was no (name) conclusion, rgey needed to be helped in otger terms. It prepared rgeir mibds for deeper understanding, I think. > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > KH: I see it differently. I think the Buddha was well known as the teacher of conditionality and anatta. And so, even when someone was directed to look for mustard seeds, they would have known it was for the purpose of grasping the meaning of anatta. They would have known there was a metaphor in there somewhere. > > > > Ph: Well, I suppose it's possible that the world the Buddha moved in was full of householders who lived their lives with an understanding of anatta, thanks to him, As we know in Satipatthana sutta commentary it is said that the discourse was delivered in such and such a town because the people there all had a particular satipatthana that they practiced, and if a person asked a person "which of the foundations do you practice?" and the other person couldn' answer, it was shameful. (I guess nobody told them that it is wrong view to choose one of the satipatthanas as one's main field of awareness) So maybe you are right. Or maybe I am right. In any case, we both appreciate the central importance of seeing now, hearing now, etc. > > > > > > > > Metta, > > > > Phil > > > #117155 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 11:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Ken O (117090) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: Mundane concentration path factor, does not necessary the object must a > dhamma. > =============== J: Many thanks for the passage from Vism (which I have set out again below). I'm not sure what you mean here by 'mundane concentration path factor'. Are you referring to the concentration mental factor that accompanies a moment of awareness/insight? If so, I don't see where in the passage it says (or implies) that the object is not necessarily a dhamma. Would you mind pointing to the specific reference, so we can discuss further. Thanks. > >J: Thanks for mentioning this. Yes, this would be right. And I understand > >this to mean that either of the following dhammas could be the object of > >awareness/insight: > >- one of the jhana factors (these are cetasikas) > >- the jhana citta itself. > > > >But this can only happen where both jhana and insight have been developed to > >high degrees. > > KO: The object is not necessary dhammas, it can be concepts which lead to > jhanas that is a basis of insight. > =============== J: To my understanding, 'jhana as a basis for insight' means that the jhana citta or a jhana factor (cetasika) is taken as object by awareness/insight consciousness (= mundane path consciousness). But this does not mean that concepts are the object of the mundane path consciousness. So I don't follow your thinking on this at all. > =============== > KO: i always heard that samatha bhavana is just developing kusala, could I know > the textual support where this is from > =============== J: Samatha bhavana is clearly not vipassana bhavana. It cannot constitute the development of the path. Or do you see it differently? Please be a little more explicit as to what aspect of the statement "samatha bhavana is just developing kusala" you disagree with. Thanks. Jon At Vis.I, 6 it says - "In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone[3], according as it is said: `Formations are all impermanent: `When he sees thus with understanding `And turns away from what is ill, `That is the path to purity' (Dh. 277). And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said: `He is near unto nibbana `In whom are jhana and understanding' (Dh. 372). Footnotes: 3. "The words `insight alone' are meant to exclude not virtue, etc., but serenity (i.e. jhana), which is the opposite number in the pair, serenity and insight. This is for emphasis. But the word `alone' actually excludes only that concentration with distinction [of jhana]; for concentration is classed as both access and absorption (see Ch. IV, 32). Takingthis stanza as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three contemplations of impermanence, pain, and not-self; not contemplation of impermanence alone" (Pm 9-10). In another footnote later between mundane and supramundane "`Develops' applies to both `consciousness' and `understanding.' But are they mundane or supramundane? They are supramundane, because the sublime goal is described; for one developing them is said to disentangle the tangle of craving by cutting it off at the path moment, and that is not mundane. But the mundane are included here too because they immediately precede, since supramundane (see Ch. III note 5) concentration and insight are impossible without mundane concentration and insight to precede them; for without the access and absorption concentration in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the momentary concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the gateways to liberation (see Ch. XXI, para 66f.), the supramundane can never in either case be reached" (Pm 13). #117156 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 11:47 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon > ... > Ph: Sarah posted about a week ago that concept could be object of panna, for example, in recollection the virtues of the Buddha for samattha, or when dhammas are understand at the conceptual level in pariyatti. "Correct intellectual understanding of dhammas" involves understanding them as concepts, concepts of realities. Right? > =============== J: Right. In samatha the subject of contemplation will be a concept (but the statement regarding dhammas as the object of panna is only ever seen in the context of vipassana). In the development of the path, the object of direct experience/understanding is a dhamma, except as regards the intellectual understanding that is a prerequisite for the direct experience. > =============== > Ph: I heard an interesting thing tonight that made me think I was on the right track here. A.S was talking about vitakka, she said there is vitakka between the moment of the seeing concsciousness falling away, for example, and the javanas arising. I don't know if that means vitakka accompanies investigation/determining cittas? Anyways, striking on the object, clicking on it, much different from what we used to think "right thinking" meant. > =============== J: I presume it means the remaining cittas in the sense-door process Yes, much different from the conventional idea of thinking! Jon #117157 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 11:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 8/28/2011 7:16:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > You seem to be suggesting that this passage should be read as meaning that > some (specified?) level of metta development is a prerequisite to the > arising of awareness/insight. I'd be interested to hear your further comments > on it. > ================================= > I think I may have already replied, Jon, that I do NOT think that > metta bhavana is requisite for the development of pa~n~na. > =============== J: Thanks for (again) clarifying that, and my apologies for misconstruing the point you were making in posting the sutta excerpt. But since it was a bare quote without comment, I let my imagination run free :-)). Jon #117158 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 11:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wishing luck? jonoabb Hi again Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Believe me, Jon, 7 days w/o power was not like surfing!! LOL! > =============== 7 days!!! That's almost unimaginable. Might as well have been out surfing ;-)) Never know what's around the corner, do we ... Jon #117159 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 12:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Ken O (117090) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > =============== KO: I have asked you before, where in the text said that only when dhamma > as an object then it is consider a mundane path factor. > =============== J: Yes, and I've explained at length why I understand that the development of insight means insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. I don't think there's anything I can say that wouldn't be repeating what I've said before, but I'm happy to explain again if you'd like me to. Apologies if I'm still missing your point (if that's the case, would you mind spelling out your position more clearly - thanks). Jon #117160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-sep-2011, om 14:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Oh, yes, I quite agree. Metta and karuna and mudita foster calm, and > these help foster wisdom - and wisdom fosters patience, acceptance, > loving > kindness, and, in fact, all wholesome conditions! ----- N: Yes, but when wisdom is still meager it goes very slowly and many lapses. Listening, considering and understanding daily realities, akusala included, foster wisdom. ----- Nina. #117161 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/4/2011 8:50:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Thanks for alliowing me to wax on. By tge way, Howard, didn't you find a week without electricity was a blessing in disguise in some ways? --------------------------------------------- HCW: Mmm, nope! LOL! ------------------------------------------------ Did you find the hindrances were less obstructive when you meditated? ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Truly - no, there was no difference. I was pleased, however, to discover that I was hardly perturbed by all the inconveniences. ---------------------------------------------- I tend to feel the internet and television run counter to meditation. I still believe the Buddha preached physical isolation and what you went through was a kind of physical seclusion...I think. Maybe you were surrounded by famiky members and neighbours who were upset by the situation... ----------------------------------------------- HCW: My wife was far from being "at peace" with the situation, LOL! But I was quite placid throughout, which was a bit of a surprise to me. ----------------------------------------------- Metta, Phil ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117162 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wishing luck? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/4/2011 9:55:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi again Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Believe me, Jon, 7 days w/o power was not like surfing!! LOL! > =============== 7 days!!! That's almost unimaginable. Might as well have been out surfing ;-)) Never know what's around the corner, do we ... ----------------------------------------------- HCW: An unfortunate fact! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117163 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna moellerdieter Hi Howard (and Phil) , you wrote: P:Thanks for alliowing me to wax on. By tge way, Howard, didn't you find a week without electricity was a blessing in disguise in some ways? --------------------------------------------- HCW: Mmm, nope! LOL! ------------------------------------------------ D: LOLOL! with Metta Dieter #117164 From: Lukas Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 1:54 am Subject: What happend to DSG site? szmicio Dear friends, http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ I could not listen audio recordings, pls do something wit that. Best Lukas #117165 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> ... >> KO: Mundane concentration path factor, does not necessary the object must a >> dhamma. >> =============== > >J: Many thanks for the passage from Vism (which I have set out again below). > >I'm not sure what you mean here by 'mundane concentration path factor'. Are you >referring to the concentration mental factor that accompanies a moment of >awareness/insight? If so, I don't see where in the passage it says (or implies) >that the object is not necessarily a dhamma. Would you mind pointing to the >specific reference, so we can discuss further. Thanks. KO: I am asking where in the text say a mundane path factor, the object must be a dhamma. I have quote this the second time to you thanks from the The Removal of Distracting Thoughts (Vitakka-Santhana Sutta), commentary <> > >> >J: Thanks for mentioning this. Yes, this would be right. And I understand >> >this to mean that either of the following dhammas could be the object of >> >awareness/insight: >> >- one of the jhana factors (these are cetasikas) >> >- the jhana citta itself. >> > >> >But this can only happen where both jhana and insight have been developed to >> >high degrees. >> >> KO: The object is not necessary dhammas, it can be concepts which lead to >> jhanas that is a basis of insight. >> =============== > >J: To my understanding, 'jhana as a basis for insight' means that the jhana >citta or a jhana factor (cetasika) is taken as object by awareness/insight >consciousness (= mundane path consciousness). But this does not mean that >concepts are the object of the mundane path consciousness. So I don't follow >your thinking on this at all. > >> =============== >> KO: i always heard that samatha bhavana is just developing kusala, could I know >> >> >> the textual support where this is from >> =============== > >J: Samatha bhavana is clearly not vipassana bhavana. It cannot constitute the >development of the path. Or do you see it differently? Please be a little more >explicit as to what aspect of the statement "samatha bhavana is just developing >kusala" you disagree with. Thanks. > KO: Jon, definitely samathana and vipassana are different because they are different pathway. Because a teacher and a parent could teach kusala, but a teacher or a parent may not teach samantha bhavana as it entails concentration and panna. The development of kusala just need shame and fear of wrongdoing cetasikas with arisen of alobha and adosa. In Visud, there are many examples of it by serenity (samatha) and by insight (insight), chapter XVIII purification of view Sorry if this goes on in such a manner, I felt I should not discuss further with you as it does not help. thanks Ken O Ken O #117166 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? moellerdieter Dear Nina (Ken H and Vince), nice to hear from you again.. you wrote: Concerning sati , I like it simple : sati= to know what is going on .. ------ N: Not easy to explain what sati is, Lodewijk often wonders about it. I would say, sati is aware of one of the paramattha dhammas appearing through one of the six doors, without having to name it, or thinking about it.When one says to know what is going on, it could be misunderstood. When walking, we know that we are walking, but this is not sati, it is thinking of a whole story about me walking. We have to know the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts or stories, I believe. D: in his recent message Ken expressed it nicely : 'It's just that when we try to express the Dhamma in our own words (as we do in Dhamma discussions) we are liable to be misunderstood.' you prefer it more specific, i.e. Abhidhammic , don't you ? ;-) Misunderstandings can occur when 'what is going on' is interpreted differently. Sati when walking means in my understanding recognizing all senses involved , i.e. what is going on . (One may add 'seeing' the Law of D.O. in action). But there is another type of walking : to stride up and down ( in German : das Auf- und Abwandeln/Abgehen) , which has been praised by the Buddha . Besides sitting a way for contemplation , here Sati means to get what is going on with thinking/pondering . I think it is possibly in line with your understanding . For me the phrase is just a good cover without claiming it must be for others.. with Metta Dieter #117167 From: "connie" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 2:51 am Subject: Re: What happend to DSG site? nichiconn Dear Lukas, > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > I could not listen audio recordings, pls do something wit that. Seems we've disappeared! How anatta is that? While we wait for the magic to bring us back online, you can still find the audio at http://www.wuala.com/nichicon/dsgTalks_mp3/ take care, connie #117168 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? moellerdieter Hi Ken H, you wrote: 'KH: If, as you rightly say, there is ultimately only the rising and ceasing of phenomena, what need is there to overcome anything? As the Vism. says: "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found." So, where's the problem? D:Suffering exists ..although no sufferer can be found. So where suffering still exist , there isn't yet a cessation of suffering , is it? KH: I am sure you are both right. It's just that when we try to express the Dhamma in our own words (as we do in Dhamma discussions) we are liable to be misunderstood. It happens to me; I dig a large hole and someone has to get me out of it. (Hi Jon). :-) D: well said.. one is tried to bend issues so that it fits in one's view . Moreover the list communication is very specific and sometimes one overlooks the different angle the other may have taken ,not to talk about semantics .. with Metta Dieter #117169 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:15 am Subject: Re: What happend to DSG site? szmicio Thanks connie Could anyone known the site http://www.dhammastudy.com/ Wonderful site with a lot of pre-edited Nina's and some Ajachrn Sujin rare text, never published on the net ever, some were on kammaska..nana of kamma by Acharn. And this was the only site with my Bhante Dhammadharo 'be here now'. It suddenly disappeared. PLEASE BRING THAT SITE BACK. Best wishes Lukas > Seems we've disappeared! How anatta is that? While we wait for the magic to bring us back online, you can still find the audio at http://www.wuala.com/nichicon/dsgTalks_mp3/ #117170 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:17 am Subject: Re: Notes on nimitta from KK (March 2011) philofillet Hi again all I have focussed my rambling slew of questions in a previous post. > > What appears now is that which can be known. Ph: Does "whatever arises" equal "whatever appears?" Am I just being being obsessive about words or am I correct in thinking there is an important difference? Is it true that most cittas arise but don't appear, such as bhavanga cittas? > > We need to know that reality appears all of the time Does this mean that there is always some reality that is appearing but because of defilements there is no awareness? Is it true to say that of the countless cittas arising, only some appear, and of those even fewer are object of awareness (as nimitta, for us?) Metta, Phil Metta, Phil Metta, Phil #117171 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 10:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Howard, Dieter and all Different accumulations, I guess. When I was without my computer for a few weeks last year, there was a huge impact on my meditation. I find info overload and other aspects of media consumption have a significant fuelling effect on the hindrances but judging from the multiple outbursts of LOLs it ain't that way for you guys. Metta, Phil > > Hi Howard (and Phil) , > > you wrote: > > P:Thanks for alliowing me to wax on. By tge way, Howard, didn't you find a week without electricity was a blessing in disguise in some ways? > --------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Mmm, nope! LOL! > ------------------------------------------------ > > > D: LOLOL! > > > with Metta Dieter > > > #117172 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 8:06 am Subject: Winning is Wisdom! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to Win the Social Game using Wisdom? The Blessed Buddha once explained: Overcome the angry with friendliness; Overcome the wicked with goodness; Overcome the miser with generosity; Overcome the liar with truth. Dhammapada 223 And what is the treasure of generosity? There is the case where a disciple of the Noble Ones, having cleaned his mind of the stain of stinginess, living at home, freely generous, and open-handed, delighting in being magnanimous, enjoying any request, delighting in the giving of alms to those needy & worthy... This is called the treasure of generosity! AN 7.6 There are these five future rewards of generosity: One is admired and liked by an overwhelming majority of the people. One is respected by the good, the intelligent and the wise persons. One's good reputation is spread easily, rapidly and far about. One fulfills the rightful duties of the householder, and with the break-up of the body, one will reappear in a good destination, even in the heavenly and exquisitely divine worlds! AN 5.35 On this future wealth creating and wisely open-handed Generosity (D�na ): Openhanded Generosity, Giving , Glad_Giving , Generosity_Contemplation , Kathina_Ceremony , Caaga , The_3_Gifts , Reviewing_own_Generosity , Pure_Merit Enjoy a calm, tight & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * #117173 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:43 am Subject: The Grace of Gratitude! bhikkhu5 Friends: Gratitude appreciates all assistance! The Buddha indeed pointed out Gratitude as an important mental quality: These two people are hard to find in the world. Which two? The one who is first to do a kindness, and The one who is grateful and thankful for any kindness done. Anguttara NikÄya 2.118 I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay: Which two? Your mother and father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, & were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate and urinate right there on your shoulders, you would not thereby repay your parents. Even if you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way repay your parents! Why is that? Mothers and fathers do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them for long, and they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in faith; rouses his immoral mother & father, establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his unwise mother & father, settles & establishes them on a new level of understanding: It is in this way that one truly repays one's mother's and father's many and longstanding services and sacrifices. Anguttara NikÄya 2.32 Parents, compassionate to their family, are called Brahma, first teachers, those worthy of gifts from their children. So the wise should show respect, honour them with food and drink, clothing & bedding, and anointing, bathing, washing their feet. Performing these services to their parents, the wise are praised right here and after death rejoice in heaven. Itivuttaka 106 If this is what you think of me: The Blessed One, is sympathetic, is seeking our well-being, teaches us this Dhamma out of sympathy, then you should train yourself in being in harmony, cordial, and without conflict and train in yourselves cultivation of all the 37 fine mental qualities: The 4_Foundations_of_Awareness , the 4 right efforts, the 4_Feet_of_Force , the 5 Abilities , 5 powers, the 7 Links to Awakening, & the Noble_8-Fold_Way . Majjhima NikÄya 103 A Tathagata is worshipped, honoured, respected, thanked & shown gratitude by any follower, who keeps practicing the Dhamma in accordance with true Dhamma, who keeps practicing masterfully, who lives in and by the Dhamma! Digha NikÄya 16 We will undertake & practice those qualities that makes one a contemplative, so that all those who helped us by services of robes, alms-food, lodging, and medicines will bring them great fruit and great future reward. Majjhima NikÄya 39 Comments: In Pali, the word for gratitude = kataññu literally means to have a sense of what was done for one in the past, even when long ago. Remembering all help! A network of kindness and gratitude is what sustains whatever goodness there is, and ever will be in this - otherwise destitute & impoverished - world! Thus: Thank you for reading this! Source (edited extract): The Lessons of Gratitude by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/lessonsofgratitude.html http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Appropriate_Appreciation.htm Enjoy a calm, tight & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * #117174 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 11:28 am Subject: Re: What happend to DSG site? jonoabb Hi Connie, Lukas, All Yes, we've been hijacked!! I will get on to the web-hosting service and ask them to kick these imposters out! Hopefully there won't be too many hoops to jump through. Lukas, thanks for reporting the matter. Connie, thank goodness for your personal back-up arrangements. You really are a gem. Will keep you all informed of progress. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > Dear Lukas, > > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > > > I could not listen audio recordings, pls do something wit that. > > Seems we've disappeared! How anatta is that? While we wait for the magic to bring us back online, you can still find the audio at http://www.wuala.com/nichicon/dsgTalks_mp3/ > > take care, > connie > #117175 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 11:36 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau Hi Jon, Phil and Sarah, ---- >> Ph: Sarah posted about a week ago that concept could be object of panna, for example, in recollection the virtues of the Buddha for samattha, or when dhammas are understand at the conceptual level in pariyatti. "Correct intellectual understanding of dhammas" involves understanding them as concepts, concepts of realities. Right? >> > J: Right. In samatha the subject of contemplation will be a concept (but the statement regarding dhammas as the object of panna is only ever seen in the context of vipassana). > In the development of the path, the object of direct experience/understanding is a dhamma, except as regards the intellectual understanding that is a prerequisite for the direct experience. ----- KH: Some time ago, DSG was discussing the panna that arose with jhana, and we agreed that this type of panna knew the difference between kusala and akusala. A question that then arose was, "If the object of jhana-citta is a kasina (a concept), and concepts are neither kusala nor akusala, in what way could panna know that object?" The answer, if I remember correctly, was that panna did not know that object. The panna associated with jhana did not arise in the actual jhana citta. It arose in a separate citta which took consciousness (or a concept of consciousness?) as its object. Did I get that right? Some recent DSG discussions have got me wondering. Ken H #117176 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Dieter) - In a message dated 9/4/2011 8:33:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard, Dieter and all Different accumulations, I guess. ------------------------------------------------- HCW: Sure! And whatever helps one's meditation is to the good! ----------------------------------------------- When I was without my computer for a few weeks last year, there was a huge impact on my meditation. I find info overload and other aspects of media consumption have a significant fuelling effect on the hindrances but judging from the multiple outbursts of LOLs it ain't that way for you guys. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: My answer was curt, and my "LOL!" pertained to that comedic - to the form of my answer to your inquiry and nothing else. (And Dieter's "LOLOL!" was just a response to that as well, I am certain.) Lest you think otherwise, please be assured that there was NO laughing with regard to YOU in the slightest!!! A less curt answer to your question: I find, indeed, that certain things interfere with my meditation more than others. Things going on *while* meditating are especially relevant for me. Human speech while meditating, for example, is a problem for me, but street sounds or a dog barking are not. -------------------------------------------- Metta, Phil =============================== With metta, Howard > > Hi Howard (and Phil) , > > you wrote: > > P:Thanks for alliowing me to wax on. By tge way, Howard, didn't you find a week without electricity was a blessing in disguise in some ways? > --------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Mmm, nope! LOL! > ------------------------------------------------ > > > D: LOLOL! > > > with Metta Dieter #117177 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 12:29 pm Subject: Re: What happend to DSG site? jonoabb Hi again All I think the problem has been fixed. Apparently our domain name expired and needed renewal. This has now been done, and things should be back to normal within an hour or so, I'm told. Must say it was a relief to find that the problem was just that and not a hacking. Apparently this is their way of bringing the need to re-register to the owner's attention, if normal reminders have not worked. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Connie, Lukas, All > > Yes, we've been hijacked!! I will get on to the web-hosting service and ask them to kick these imposters out! Hopefully there won't be too many hoops to jump through. > > Lukas, thanks for reporting the matter. > > Connie, thank goodness for your personal back-up arrangements. You really are a gem. > > Will keep you all informed of progress. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime. > > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Lukas, > > > > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > > > > > I could not listen audio recordings, pls do something wit that. > > > > Seems we've disappeared! How anatta is that? While we wait for the magic to bring us back online, you can still find the audio at http://www.wuala.com/nichicon/dsgTalks_mp3/ > > > > take care, > > connie > > > #117178 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 12:52 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau Hi Phil, -------- <. . .> >> KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. >> > Ph: Well, I can at least understand saying that the Buddha's teaching of conventional morality is descriptive rather than prescriptive, even if I don't agree with it (and maybe I do) but I can't understand how it can be a metaphor. But never mind, that's cool. My feeling these days is that I want to listen and ask questions to learn more about the present moment, so I will hopefully leave aside my usual stomping ground of the importance of conventional behaviour for creating conditions that permit better more patient listen. For example, these days there is obviously a lot of energy and patience for listening to difficult topics, I think it wouldn't be arising if there had been a failure in the big sila issue facing me recently. Sarah and pt gave me advice that was very conventional, for example, Sarah said stay away from that woman, what you two are doing is hurting each other and other people. That was very effective, that's what I wanted to hear. And it is one big reason that there is a lot of listening and reflecting these days. A sutta says that when there is freedom from remorse, there are better conditions for understanding. That seems to be true in my case. But honestly, not to worry. -------- KH: OK, I won't press you on that for the moment. -------------- <. . .> >> KH: Is that strictly correct? The Buddha taught a gradual path, but I think that refers to the way satipatthana gradually developed from weak to strong. I don't think the Buddha ever taught anything other than satipatthana. >> > Ph: Ken, you have countless times been pointed toward the stock sutta passage that is used several or many times in the suttanta, for example, when the Buddha met a leper on the road he taught a gradual teaching on various topics...I just did a quick google search, here is the key passage, didn't check the quality of the translation: <. . .> -------------- KH: You are right, and I should apologise for my obstinacy. Even A. Sujin concedes that the Buddha occasionally taught a conventional path for people who were not ready to hear the true path. And yet it is A Sujin who I relentlessly quote as saying, "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana." But I remain obstinate. Undoubtedly the Buddha did occasionally teach something other than satipatthana, but, even so, you and I are to understand that fact in terms of satipatthana. (I think that is what A Sujin meant.) We have to understand the present moment. And every moment throughout history has been exactly like this present one - just a few fleeting conditioned dhammas performing their functions. -------------------- > Ph: Just something for you to keep in mind, not interested in trying to convince you of anything. But note that the teaching particular to the Buddha, the teaching you insist on, is not delivered until the listeners mind is ready. ---------------------- KH: Yes, thanks, I will try to remember that, but it doesn't change my outlook at all. It's just part of the Dhamma. It's just part of an explanation of the different dhammas that can arise at different times dependent on conditions. ------------------------------- > Ph: I don't understand that point as clearly as I did a few months ago. I am back to thinking that it is good to learn Abdhidhamma as a way of better understanding the suttas, right from the beginning. Time spent at another forum made that very clear to me, people just seem to mess around with the suttanta. (Not true of people here, but it kind of was an eyeopener for me, such disregard of, disrespect for Abhidhamma, it woke me up.) ------------------------------- KH: You know more about people and other forums than I do. I don't understand why DSG isn't flooded with members. Why are there so few of us? What happened to Mike, for example? -------------- <. . .> >> KH: I think the Buddha was well known as the teacher of conditionality and anatta. <. . .> >> > Ph: Well, I suppose it's possible that the world the Buddha moved in was full of householders who lived their lives with an understanding of anatta, thanks to him, As we know in Satipatthana sutta commentary it is said that the discourse was delivered in such and such a town because the people there all had a particular satipatthana that they practiced, and if a person asked a person "which of the foundations do you practice?" and the other person couldn' answer, it was shameful. (I guess nobody told them that it is wrong view to choose one of the satipatthanas as one's main field of awareness) So maybe you are right. Or maybe I am right. In any case, we both appreciate the central importance of seeing now, hearing now, etc. -------------- KH: Yes, and even those well advanced students in the Buddha's day didn't "choose" which satipatthana they practised. (Or, to be more precise, they didn't choose to have the panna that knew which satipatthana they were most likely to practise.) :-) Ken H #117179 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 1:08 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi KenH, Phil and Mike > KH: You know more about people and other forums than I do. I don't understand why DSG isn't flooded with members. Why are there so few of us? What happened to Mike, for example? > =============== I've been wondering the same thing myself. Perhaps he's still pondering our messages ;-)) Anyway, Mike, I hope you see this and break your silence :-)) Jon #117180 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 1:10 pm Subject: Re: What happend to DSG site? jonoabb Hi again All Happy to report that the website at dhammastudygroup.org is now back up again. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi again All > > I think the problem has been fixed. Apparently our domain name expired and needed renewal. This has now been done, and things should be back to normal within an hour or so, I'm told. > > Must say it was a relief to find that the problem was just that and not a hacking. Apparently this is their way of bringing the need to re-register to the owner's attention, if normal reminders have not worked. > > Jon #117181 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 1:24 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau Hi Phil, Just replying to this post before tackling your more challenging amendment to it. --- <. . .> >> KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. >> > Ph: I find this kind of intriguing. Kusala (or akusala citta) gives rise to the rupas physical intimation that moves other rupas towards "guving alms.". --- KH: The subject of bodily intimation might be a digression from our present conversation. It is a rupa that 'conveys intention' not that 'moves other rupas.' --------- > Ph: Wouldn't that action be some kind of result of citta rather than a metaphor of it. There are countless cittas involved in an act of giving, how could that act be a metaphor for one of them, isn't it more about processes of cause and result, paccayas etc. Still all dhammas, I agree. --------- KH: No, I don't think so. Bodily-intimation is a dhamma and it is conditioned by citta, but actions are not dhammas. They are not conditioned by anything. Ken H #117182 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 1:50 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------ >>> KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. >>> >> Ph: I find this kind of intriguing. Kusala (or akusala citta) gives rise to the rupas physical intimation that moves other rupas towards "guving alms.". Wouldn't that action be sone kind of result of citta rather than a metaphor of it. There are countless cittas involved in an act of giving, how could that act be a metaphor for one of them, isn't it more about processes of cause and result, paccayas etc. Still all dhammas... >> > Ph: I thought about what I wrote above when I came across this passage from the Satipatthaba Sutta comnentary (Soma Thera p.96): "The Elder Tipitaka Mahaa Siiva indeed said: Who, after walkung or exercising long in the ambulatory, stands and reflects: 'Tge bodily and mental things which existed during the time of exercises on the ambukatory ended just there on the ambulatory' is called a doer of clear comprehension in walking." ------ KH: Thanks for the lovely quote. Isn't it saying exactly what the DSG dinosaurs have been telling us all along? Isn't it saying what most Buddhists today are completely oblivious of? The monk who is walking knows the absolute reality of the moment. He knows there are only namas and rupas (no monk (in the conventional sense) and no walking (in the conventional sense). ----------------------- > Ph: If you have this commentary and read and reflect on the section on clear comprehension of modes of comportment I think you might begin to appreciate that saying that action is phrased in conventional terms doesn't mean that a deed isa metaphor for a citta but is an operation of cittas tgat arise and fall away, but thete is tge deed, carried out by these processes of nama and rupa, they just have to be understood as occuring void of a self at tge center of them. ----------------------- KH: This is where you have me at a disadvantage. This is where the dinosaurs speak a language I don't quite understand. Sarah assures me it is nothing important, but when they say dana (for example) depends on an "act of dana" I don't quite know what they mean. Or maybe I do know what they mean, but . . . --------------------------- > Ph: If I understand you correctly, you are saying there are no deeds, I think that must be wrong view if some kind, though I'm not sure by any means. I probably don't understand you yet. --------------------------- KH: If I was on Mastermind this would definitely not be my Special Subject. Better ask someone else. :-) Ken H #117183 From: "azita" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 2:40 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna gazita2002 Hallo KenH, Phil I guess we all agree that there is citta, cetasika and rupa. We know that they all condition one another in many ways. At a moment of giving, it must be kusala citta that motivates the action of giving, altho we can never be sure unless there is a moment of satipatthana to really know the dhamma that arose and fell away. We can speculate endlessly on and on about dhammas but only one thing can know for sure what arises and that one thing is right understanding - without right understanding/right view nothing can be really known. Kenh I always appreciate yr insistence on present moment being all there is. We can never hear enuff of this info if simply bec its never heard anywhere in the conventional world. patience, courage and good cheer, azita > >>> KH: It's just my usual argument about there being only dhammas. Any conventional reality (such as giving alms to a monk) is, at best, a metaphor for kusala citta. > >>> > > >> Ph: I find this kind of intriguing. Kusala (or akusala citta) gives rise to the rupas physical intimation that moves other rupas towards "guving alms.". Wouldn't that action be sone kind of result of citta rather than a metaphor of it. There are countless cittas involved in an act of giving, how could that act be a metaphor for one of them, isn't it more about processes of cause and result, paccayas etc. Still all dhammas... > >> > > > Ph: I thought about what I wrote above when I came across this passage from the Satipatthaba Sutta comnentary (Soma Thera p.96): > > "The Elder Tipitaka Mahaa Siiva indeed said: Who, after walkung or exercising long in the ambulatory, stands and reflects: 'Tge bodily and mental things which existed during the time of exercises on the ambukatory ended just there on the ambulatory' is called a doer of clear comprehension in walking." > ------ > > KH: Thanks for the lovely quote. Isn't it saying exactly what the DSG dinosaurs have been telling us all along? Isn't it saying what most Buddhists today are completely oblivious of? The monk who is walking knows the absolute reality of the moment. He knows there are only namas and rupas (no monk (in the conventional sense) and no walking (in the conventional sense). > > ----------------------- > > Ph: If you have this commentary and read and reflect on the section on clear > comprehension of modes of comportment I think you might begin to appreciate that saying that action is phrased in conventional terms doesn't mean that a deed isa metaphor for a citta but is an operation of cittas tgat arise and fall away, but thete is tge deed, carried out by these processes of nama and rupa, they just have to be understood as occuring void of a self at tge center of them. > ----------------------- > > KH: This is where you have me at a disadvantage. This is where the dinosaurs speak a language I don't quite understand. > > Sarah assures me it is nothing important, but when they say dana (for example) depends on an "act of dana" I don't quite know what they mean. > > Or maybe I do know what they mean, but . . . > > --------------------------- > > Ph: If I understand you correctly, you are saying there are no deeds, I think that must be wrong view if some kind, though I'm not sure by any means. I probably don't understand you yet. > --------------------------- > > KH: If I was on Mastermind this would definitely not be my Special Subject. Better ask someone else. :-) > > Ken H > #117184 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:18 pm Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi pt. Hard to keep up with this length of exchange. I will try to reply to this post in parts - let's see how it goes. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi RobE, > > > RE: I appreciate the explanation, which makes sense. However, the whole idea that panna and the hearing of Dhamma are strictly the result of past life accumulations seems very far removed from any development we do in this lifetime, > > pt: I think a more relevant conclusion to be drawn as relating to practice right now is the conditioned nature of arising of panna, sense-consciousness, etc. All conditioned, right now. So, the argument is not about establishing a scientific/philosophical truth in the sense of "rain comes when vapor condenses" ala "present panna is conditioned by past panna", but rather, it's about encouraging actual arising of panna now - understanding the conditioned nature of whatever is the object at the moment. If that happens, the sutta/abhidhamma/discussion has served its true purpose. Well, I understand your line of reasoning but it bypasses the problems of the philosophy and what affect it may have *on* practice in the moment. I agree that understanding the nature of the object of the moment is the real issue, but I think it's side-stepping to say that the issue of how panna arises is unimportant, or that it doesn't influence the approach to the present. Can panna develop now, in the moment? Or is it just conditioned by past panna? > As for whether we can then post-facto claim that this moment of panna was conditioned by some other past moment in the present or past lifetimes - the statement has no practical use unless it is to point towards conditionality and anatta nature of whatever arises. I don't know. I think that such teachings muddy the water of what is happening now. It's important to know what the basic setup is. If it's speculative, then you're right it doesn't directly apply to what is happening now. But then why is this taught, and what is its relevance? It is not just a teaching about the general conditionality of experience, but a specific claim that disempowers the present action, the present arising of understanding, awareness, and continues to move in the direction of accepting what arises now as basically a past event delayed. I don't see how that helps the mind be aware of the present as something that is happening now. > > RE: and does not seem to be restricted in that way in the explanations in sutta - though I may just not have seen the relevant suttas. It's a very, once again, non-active approach to understanding, as far as this lifetime is concerned, and once again gets into the difficult territory of interpreting the teachings on what constitutes practice, now, in this lifetime which is where we currently are. > > pt: My conclusion is that encouraging understanding now is very much an active approach and all about the practice, right now, rather than approaching the subject philosophically and then trying to practice in order to make more of panna arise at some point in the future. So, imo, suttas and all other texts are primarily meant to encourage understanding now - so kusala citta now. If on the other hand they are taken as a philosophy, something to intellectualize about, and then try to implement it in the future in order to gain something in the future - well that's (usually) akusala citta now, simply because it's not kusala citta now. Well that seems to be the tenor of most discussions. I don't know if this is true of you in particular, but it seems that to focus so much on the technical details and give so much importance to exactly how this or that type of moment is produced, along with conditions and accompanying cetasikas, and then to say that the real emphasis is on the present moment, seems a real contradiction between actual emphasis and what you are saying is the real emphasis. Why are there so many massive volumes of detailed analysis and why is it so important, if it is all about seeing the general conditioned nature of what arises now? > > RE: It covers it, from the point of view of this theoretical framework, but does not necessarily connect that view of how things develop to a source in sutta, which would be good to see if it exists. > > pt: Hm, to me every time a sutta says that this is anatta, and that is anicca, etc, imo in essence it's describing an instance of insight/practice right now. In abhidhamma lingo, that is exactly equal to saying that javana citta arises with panna, which is conditioned by past panna among other things. So that's just another description of what's arising right now, using a bit different lingo, again meant to encourage the arising of understanding right now that sees anatta, anicca, conditionality, etc. Well it's sort of confusing to sort out what you mean by "describing what is arising now." It would be more like giving an example of what might be arising now, since of course it's not describing one's own current experience. So it is taking the theoretical breakdown of a possible moment, and then, if I understand you correctly, encouraging you to look at the moment now in a similar way. That is very much at a remove from actually spontaneously looking at the moment now. In this way of thinking, everything is indirect and by hopeful coincidence or spurring some unintended process. Well I guess that's alright but it's much more roundabout than what I think would be more direct. > If you're looking for more theoretical/post-facto statements about how wisdom develops, there's that sutta that's often quoted here about hearing and considering, then there's the one about six(?) purifications that was the basis for Visuddhimagga structure, and then there are the gradual teaching suttas. Sorry, can't look for sutta numbers now. All of the writings are either pre-facto or post-facto, none of them are actually about the moment as it is really occurring now. They're all writings. Practice can not come directly from reading as it is giving a spur or an understanding of theory or a push in the right direction, but it's not the understanding of a moment itself. It's at a remove from seeing this moment now. > > RE: If in fact that is the case, then any additional purposeful effort would in fact also be arising on its own, since there is no other mechanism to make it arise, other than whatever accumulations and tendencies have led to that moment of practice/effort. > > pt: Yes, I think that's right. So, when we put it that way, then the best conclusion to be drawn, as applicable to the moment right now, is that whatever arises now is conditioned and anatta. That is the right conclusion, but does drawing that conclusion cause one to realize it directly? Or move one in that direction? That is more to the point. Maybe it does, but it can also become a substitute for seeing. Always thinking about how it is. There is the other way of approaching practice, and that is to put aside the books after understanding something and apply them to the moment itself. I think that's more direct. The same principle applies, that the additional effort, the practice, is in fact arising on its own, and not because of a person who wills it, but the kind of volition involved is more direct and can be understood and encouraged, rather than seeing everything as an indirect result of factors removed from the moment itself. Straw man? > Such conclusion hopefully encourages panna right now that then arises with right effort automatically, knows the difference between kusala and akusala, etc. However, if the conclusion we draw out of the discussion is that purposeful effort is better than the non-purposeful one, or the other way around, then what we have encouraged in the present is not more understanding but simply more intellectualizing, most probably akusala. Do you see the difference as applicable to the arising of understanding right now? I understand the argument, but don't agree with the idea that there is either a choosing between purpose/non-purpose, or else there is the kusala approach, which would involve no judgment on what is skillful. Don't mean that as a straw man, I just draw the conclusions from what you say as best I can. But it seems that it gives a false choice between having no view about practice, or else having an akusala intention. I don't think the choice is that absolute or that polarized. It's more like seeing the efficacy of practice and engaging it. I don't see that as akusala. Okay, that's more than I intended for one post - I really don't have any control over these things. :-) So I'll close off for now and continue later. Take Care, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #117185 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mettaa. was: Introductions - Khalil Bodhi epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 4-sep-2011, om 8:03 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I am happy to hear this. I wonder how the Brahma viharas, esp. > > metta, fit into the scheme of realization. Is it just that they are > > kusala, or are there specific qualities being developed that are > > necessary for enlightenment? Why are they so important? > ------- > N: You think less and less of yourself. More detachment. Self is so > important to us, and all the perfections do help to have a decrease > of this. Through the perfections there will be a lessening of > defilements. You do not think to gain anything for yourself, but to > have less defilements. Thanks, Nina. That sounds like a good aspect of the path, to lessen the sense of self in such a nice way. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #117186 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:53 pm Subject: Re: What happend to DSG site? szmicio Dear Jon, Maybe more audio recordings soons??? Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Connie, Lukas, All > > Yes, we've been hijacked!! I will get on to the web-hosting service and ask them to kick these imposters out! Hopefully there won't be too many hoops to jump through. > > Lukas, thanks for reporting the matter. > > Connie, thank goodness for your personal back-up arrangements. You really are a gem. > > Will keep you all informed of progress. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime. > > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Lukas, > > > > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > > > > > I could not listen audio recordings, pls do something wit that. > > > > Seems we've disappeared! How anatta is that? While we wait for the magic to bring us back online, you can still find the audio at http://www.wuala.com/nichicon/dsgTalks_mp3/ > > > > take care, > > connie > > > #117187 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:59 pm Subject: Re: What happend to DSG site? szmicio Dear Jon, I think I can support you with quite nice domains, and also link this to the site, for free of course. I am starting a company. Me and Adam are doing quite proffesional sites. But really I like this simple dsg site :P No need to change :P Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi again All > > I think the problem has been fixed. Apparently our domain name expired and needed renewal. This has now been done, and things should be back to normal within an hour or so, I'm told. #117188 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Notes on nimitta from KK (March 2011) nilovg Dear Phil, I started a mail to Ann and you but could not finish because of lack of time. Op 5-sep-2011, om 1:17 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > > What appears now is that which can be known. > > Ph: Does "whatever arises" equal "whatever appears?" Am I just > being being obsessive about words or am I correct in thinking there > is an important difference? > ------ N: Realities arise and fall away all the time but not all of them are known by citta, thus, not all of them appear. And even more rarely, appear to sati, that is, are object of awareness. -------- Ph: > > Is it true that most cittas arise but don't appear, such as > bhavanga cittas? > ----- N: Yes, true. Only those who have developed insight can be aware of bhavangacitta. ------- > > Ph: > > We need to know that reality appears all of the time > > Does this mean that there is always some reality that is appearing > but because of defilements there is no awareness? > ------ N: There is time and again some reality or other, such as colour, sound, etc. appearing, is known by citta. But not all realities that arise and fall away. When it appears, there is rarely awareness of it as a dhamma. ------- > > Ph: Is it true to say that of the countless cittas arising, only > some appear, and of those even fewer are object of awareness (as > nimitta, for us?) > ------ N: True. -------- > > Metta, > Phil > > Metta, > Phil > > Metta, > Phil > -------- N: Hi Phil, as Kh Sujin says, metta never is enough :-)) ------ Nina. > > #117189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 4-sep-2011, om 18:22 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: in his recent message Ken expressed it nicely : > 'It's just that when we try to express the Dhamma in our own words > (as we do in Dhamma discussions) we are liable to be misunderstood.' > you prefer it more specific, i.e. Abhidhammic , don't you ? ;-) ------- N: Yes, because the Abhidhamma explains paramattha dhammas, and the object of pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path, or vipassanaa is paramattha dhammas. ------- > D: > < interpreted differently. > > Sati when walking means in my understanding recognizing all senses > involved , i.e. what is going on . (One may add 'seeing' the Law of > D.O. in action). ------- N: More than that. When sati arises there can be understanding or beginning to understand colour that appears as only a dhamma, no person or thing. This is difficult because it seems that we see people and things all the time. Besides, sati does not only arise when walking but in whatever posture. --------- > > D: But there is another type of walking : to stride up and down > ( in German : das Auf- und Abwandeln/Abgehen) , which has been > praised by the Buddha . > Besides sitting a way for contemplation , here Sati means to get > what is going on with thinking/pondering . ------- N: The Buddha praised the Alley Walk, because the bhikkhu should not only sit all the time, that is not healthy. One may be thinking of the Dhamma while doing an alley walk, but best is being aware of whatever appears through the six doorways. ------- Nina. #117190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-sep-2011, om 16:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > HCW: > My wife was far from being "at peace" with the situation, LOL! But I > was quite placid throughout, which was a bit of a surprise to me. ------- N: Of course Rita was worried, because getting food is the responsibility of the housewife. I was amazed at your list of foods that you managed to take in order to stay alive. I told Lodewijk, he was impressed by your ordeal. Good you could stay calm! Nina. #117191 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? nilovg Dear Vince, Op 2-sep-2011, om 23:14 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: >> N: This all happens because of the right conditions at arahatship. >> There is no self who could think: I will not allow... There are >> merely conditioned dhammas rolling on. > > V: yes. I cited that text in the sense of not based in the own > power of "I don't > allow" but in keeping detachment at the moment of contact, knowing > that "I" > arise when "that" arise. -------- N: Can we keep detachment at the moment of contact? We cannot select moments of sati. I think it is best not to think of specific moments, or is that not what you meant? Even the keeping detachment can be motivated by "I" who tries. -------- > V: I think it is not very different of what Sujin says > that there is "seeing" instead "I see". Discovering of "seeing" > needs detachment > of "I see". ------ N: That is right. We are used to think all the time of I see, I hear, but now we learn that seeing and hearing are just conditioned dhammas. ------- Nina. #117192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna nilovg Dear Azita and Ken H, Op 5-sep-2011, om 6:40 heeft azita het volgende geschreven: > Kenh I always appreciate yr insistence on present moment being all > there is. We can never hear enuff of this info if simply bec its > never heard anywhere in the conventional world. ------ N: Hear, hear! ----- Nina. #117193 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Notes on nimitta from KK (March 2011), part 1. nilovg Dear Ann and Phil. Ann, thank you for your notes. I shall now join Phil in his observations. Op 2-sep-2011, om 3:50 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > Nimitta is a sign - (usually) taking a nimitta for something, a > concept, for instance an idea about sound. The concept is not > necessarily wrong view. > > Ph: There is never stopping at sense door cognition for us, always > straight to mind door processes, like water going from one sheet of > onion paper to the next, in a flash, is the meaning here? > ------ N: I remember this metaphor, yes, correct. Ann: There is both nimitta of concept and nimitta of reality. Usually it is nimitta of concept. Where the other 5 sense consciousnesses or bhavanga citta is not arising, then it's thinking. Seems as if we are thinking all of the time. Understanding is nimitta of reality. It is not easy to understand feeling as a reality (nimitta of vedana). ------- N: Different meanings of nimitta in different contexts. Nimitta as object of jhaana such as a kasina is one thing. Then there is the text: being infatuated by the the image of the whole and the details. We take what is seen for persons or things. Another meaning of nimitta. Then there is sa"nkhara nimitta, nimitta of the khandhas. Nimitta of ruupa, of feeling etc. N: I shall now requote from my 'Alone with Dhamma' (Ch on the present moment): (end quote) ------ Nina. #117194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha. was: Khandhas and samsara nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 2-sep-2011, om 17:34 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > KO: Now remember when Buddha said the world, you forget to say that > mind objects > can be a concept. In the commentary of MN1, when the description > of earth, it > is by four description. There is conventional earth, objective > earth, - are > all concepts. --------- N: Different aspects of Earth, true. But touch now something, and hardness appears. The element of earth, and this is not self, only an element, a ruupa dhamma. As to mind-objects, the fourth applcation: for example the five khandhas, these are just paramattha dhammas. They can be directly experienced without naming them or thinking about them. They have characteristics that appear one at a time. There are not two kinds of collecting the body. Reading on and continuing your quote makes this clear: just primary ruupas and derived ruupas. The body parts are a way of teaching in conventional language that leads us on to the true characteristics. That is what really matters. As to the stages of insight: N: Vis. XX, 4: Herein, the plane of full-understanding of the known >[~naata pari~n~na) extends from the Delimitation of Formations [N: >first stage: naama/ruupa/ pariccheda ~naa.na] (Ch. XVIII) up to the >Discernment of Conditions (Ch XIX) [N: the second stage]. >See Ch XVIII for the first stage of tender insight. >------- This is in the context of the pari~n~nas, the three kinds of full understanding that include all stages of insight, also the three tender stages. See Vis. Ch XVIII: Purity of View , this is 'the correct seeing of mentality materiality". After the soil and the roots we have now the trunk. This is not merely intellectual understanding, it is insight. ------ Nina. Nina. #117195 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not Who, but What? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Dieter) - In a message dated 9/5/2011 3:40:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Dieter, Op 4-sep-2011, om 18:22 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: in his recent message Ken expressed it nicely : > 'It's just that when we try to express the Dhamma in our own words > (as we do in Dhamma discussions) we are liable to be misunderstood.' > you prefer it more specific, i.e. Abhidhammic , don't you ? ;-) ------- N: Yes, because the Abhidhamma explains paramattha dhammas, and the object of pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path, or vipassanaa is paramattha dhammas. =============================== I think this is quite true. However this should not be taken to mean that the cultivation of (awareness of) the 4 foundations of mindfulness pertains entirely and only to paramattha dhammas: This is largely and most importantly so, by far, but the Satipatthana Sutta begins - and beginnings are important - with mindfulness of the body, the first foundation, and if one reads that section just as it is, without acrobatic reinterpretation, it is clear that it deals with attention to macroscopic, physical aggregations, with rupas per se being the objects of awareness only at the much later and advanced stage of the fourth foundation. All meditation begins at a gross level, with deeper, more intense, and more precise levels of mindfulness, concentration, and insight arising only after considerable progress occurs. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117196 From: "antony272b2" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Implications of Foulness of the Body antony272b2 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Antony, > > Always good to read your reflections. > > --- On Wed, 10/8/11, antony272b2 wrote: > > >On page 160 of "Great Disciples of the Buddha" Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: > > "With the scalpel of meditative insight Vangisa had to dissect the body and probe beneath its charming exterior in order to see the wretchedness and misery lying within." > > >Antony: I'm thinking that the foulness of the body isn't just that it would stink and look ugly if you took away the skin, but that even in a healthy body having blood vessels etc. involves stressful internal bodily contact and feeling which can be sensed in meditation. > ..... > S: Isn't it more helpful to understand that the body we find so precious is just an illusion and in truth there are just the various rupas, the various elements arising and falling away? It is because these rupas arise and fall away all the time and are as such "oppressed" that they are truly foul oe impure (asubha), not beautiful or pure (subha) at all. The sotapanna has no more illusion or wrong view about the beauty of the body because there is no more illusion about a body as existing. It is clearly understood that there are only impermanent, unsatisfactory and foul namas and rupas arising and falling away. > ... > Metta > > Sarah > ====== Antony: So namas and rupas are foul? That is a new idea for me. I was under the impression that they were aesthetically neutral. Thanks for the reply! (I only found it just now). With metta / Antony. #117197 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just checking re concepts and panna upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/5/2011 3:43:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 4-sep-2011, om 16:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > HCW: > My wife was far from being "at peace" with the situation, LOL! But I > was quite placid throughout, which was a bit of a surprise to me. ------- N: Of course Rita was worried, because getting food is the responsibility of the housewife. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: :-) I'm afraid that we are a bit more 21st century than that, Nina. We share a lot of what we do and don't think in terms of traditional roles very much. It is more a matter of personal "accumulations," as you are wont to say. ------------------------------------------------- I was amazed at your list of foods that you managed to take in order to stay alive. I told Lodewijk, he was impressed by your ordeal. Good you could stay calm! -------------------------------------------------- HCW: There was never any genuine danger, and there were places we could go if need be. Objectively it was simply one great inconvenience and annoyance! ;-) Actually, had there been any really serious danger, Rita would have been the "strong" one, for in actual emergencies she is a rock! -------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #117198 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 11:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: I am asking where in the text say a mundane path factor, the object must be > a dhamma. I have quote this the second time to you thanks > > from the The Removal of Distracting Thoughts (Vitakka-Santhana Sutta), > commentary > > < through reflection of two kinds of bringing about detachment for inanimate > things, namely those on ownerlessness and temporariness, taught in the section > of the enlightenment factors (bojjhanga) in the commentary to the Satipatthana > Sutta. Therefore the thinking on the object (which produces greed), by way of > the reflection of impermanence is the different object. > Reflection... on ownerlessness and temporariness; this bowl gradually ends up as > broken pieces, having changed color, became old, developed cracks and holes or > having smashed up; this robe, having faded, worn out will have to be thrown away > with the end of a stick, after it is used as a rag to wipe the feet with. If > these had an owner, he would prevent them from being destroyed. In this manner > should the reflection on ownerlessness be done. And the reflection on > temporariness should be done with the thought that these cannot last long, that > these are of brief duration.>> > =============== Thanks for the commentary passage. However, on a brief reading, I don't see how it contradicts the idea that only dhammas can be object of mundane path consciousness. Would you mind explaining your reading of the passage on that point. Thanks. Jon #117199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Implications of Foulness of the Body nilovg Dear Antony, I heard Kh Sujin say: what arises and falls away is not beautiful. True, we cannot keep them or cherish them. They fall away immediately. Nina. Op 5-sep-2011, om 13:36 heeft antony272b2 het volgende geschreven: > Antony: So namas and rupas are foul? That is a new idea for me. I > was under the impression that they were aesthetically neutral.