#119800 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 3:10 pm Subject: Re: Can a Non-Buddhist Act as a Buddhist? was: Off Topic: An Unkownd Texas Ranger nichiconn Hi, Chuck, > > Please forgive me if I have not responded before on your question. > > I could not find my response. > No problem. I don't remember my question anyway. I guess if something's really important enough, I can always repeat myself... shudder! > On being a [label] Buddhist, Imho, it is in one's heart/mind if a sentient being is a Buddhist. > > What is your opinion? > Tonight? I don't care what people call themselves. Usually? We're all wanna-be-something or others and that's one of our biggest problems... our lack of understanding anatta. g'night, connie #119801 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 3:26 pm Subject: Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > Good friend Rob E, et al > > Warm thanks for you very polite message... > > However, it is true... even as a monk; some of my messages were deleted, modified, delayed about 24 hours, et cetera... > > That is why I am usually quiet... it is very difficult to have a discussion when one has to wait several hours to pass the censors. > > Sincere warm thanks for your very polite message... I am glad you found my message polite, and I hope you don't mind if I challenge you on this point a little bit more - a number of yahoo messages were delayed in the last week or two and all came out at once just recently. I believe that Scott mentioned this in a post as I noticed that some posts from last week had suddenly appeared. Scott noted that he had already rewritten one post and then the old version showed up afterwards. So I think you can assume that there are some problems with yahoo groups itself and that sometimes posts are diverted or delayed. The moderators of this group have always been honest about the way they deal with things. If they objected to a post and didn't want it to appear, they would inform you privately by email that the post had been held back for whatever reason. When they have disagreed with you on a point about the vinaya, they have openly said so, so there is no reason to think they are doing anything behind the scenes or without your knowledge. Sometimes things happen for other reasons than we think they do, and I truly don't understand why you have assumed that the moderators of the group are purposely doing anything to your posts, unless you have been informed of this by them. Did you start out with a feeling that someone was against you here?; because I do not see it. If there is a technical problem, tell the moderators and they will check with yahoo. Maybe posts from your email address are being delayed for some reason, because of the coordination between the servers. I have a yahoo mail address, and for a while everything I sent to aol got bounced back to me, sometimes a week later. So unless you have some evidence to make you think something like this is happening, I don't think you should assume that anyone is objecting to your posts or "fiddling" around with them. I hope that is helpful, rather than causing any further disturbance, but I am sure I am right that no one here is so indirect as to do anything behind your back. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #119802 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 3:34 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Scott, Alex and all > > > A: "...The teaching that billions and billions of cittas arise per second, amount or temporal duration of a citta is conventional teaching, it is not ultimate...any kinds of arguments based on "because cittas happen so fast..." is conceptual..." > > > > Scott: Finally. Same old stuff, eh? > > > It's almost comical, we could have a "guess where Alex is going with this?" contest. > > Alex, in the future, please get straight to your point without the courtroom techniques, thanks! Any chance we could get a break from characterizing and disparaging other list members? It really is toxic, going back and forth saying "ha ha guess what Alex said - so predictable," and basically gossiping about people. Then saying rudely to him "get to the point next time," just as you recently instructed me to basically get lost if I didn't want to talk about relevant subjects. Who died and made you King of dsg? You really should seriously think about refraining from such comments both about and to people, and take care of your own issues rather than focusing on others' apparent flaws. It makes a mockery of your supposed belief in uncontrollable dhammas, when you keep making statements trying to control the way others behave. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #119803 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 3:36 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? epsteinrob Hi Scott and Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Phil, > > Ph: "It's almost comical, we could have a 'guess where Alex is going with this?' contest." > > Scott: We'd all win. > > Ph: "Alex, in the future, please get straight to your point without the courtroom techniques, thanks!" > > Scott: I second the motion. One good gossip deserves another. Have fun! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #119804 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 3:39 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? epsteinrob Hey Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Alex > > > Do you have any reasonable reply what I've said? > > > One reasonable reply is since you obviously reject Abhidhamma, why do you spend so much time at a group that is so keen on Abhidhamma? That is what I don't understand. You have many other groups, I know. It's time for you to stop telling people to leave the group or advising them that they're in the wrong place if they speak in a way that you don't prefer. You are not a moderator here and you are not running this group, and you truly should keep your mouth shut when you have the urge to discourage other people from being here. Stop it. It's nasty, inappropriate behavior and doesn't speak well for you. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #119805 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 4:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo epsteinrob Hi Nina. I finally re-found this message! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > You always have interesting remarks and these are worth considering. > As I am writing to you it helps me to consider dhammas for myself! That is very nice to hear! I really appreciate your feedback on these issues. > Op 2-nov-2011, om 6:05 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > This idea above is based on what I recall being said on dsg, > > because knowing kusala from akusala is not one of the stages of > > insight, so I am assuming it is prior, like a basic level of > > insight before the official stages begin. Maybe someone can clarify > > that. > > > > In any case, I know in the past you questioned whether the knowing > > of kusala from akusala was a different form of insight from the > > insight that knows nama from rupa, but I think Sarah has said, and > > others, that one has to know kusala from akusala before the stages > > of insight proper can take place. > -------- > N: As far as I remember, I understood that before the first stage of > insight there cannot be clear understanding of different cetasikas > and of the difference between citta and cetasika. We have dosa, we > notice dosa, and then we hear from Kh Sujin: "it is still your dosa". > That wakes us up. It is still thinking of dosa, not the immediate > attention to its characteristic in being mindful of it. We notice in > a coarse way when there is kusala and when akusala, but it is still > "ours". We do not even know naama as naama before the first stage of > insight, and how could understanding be precise if this is not known? It seems to me that I am picking up some of this intellectually lately, but because it is not direct "dhammas" I'm not sure what to make of these observations. I mentioned that I suddenly became interested in the difference between kusala and akusala and started challenging some actions and intentions that I had thought were "good" but that turned out to be self-based and trying to get something out of being nice, and that sort of thing. It seems to me that this noticing of akusala when certain things come up is a good thing, but I guess it is somewhere along the line of noticing kusala and akusala as a concept and applying it to conventional thoughts, intentions and actions... So I wonder where that kind of thing fits in. My understanding of nama and rupa has increased a little bit intellectually too. I guess that's good also, although it's nowhere close to spotting a real nama or rupa as they arise "in the wild." Is that something like a crude beginning of pariyatti, or is pariyatti always something more immediate? > We learnt that first of all the realities that appear because of > their own conditions (not we concentrating on it) should be known as > just dhammas. It is important not to try to select any object, > because than the self is at work, and we do not learn that dhammas > arise because of their own conditions. Okay. > Those who developed samatha before the Buddha's time had to know the > difference between kusala citta and akusala citta; indeed, this is > necessary for the development of samatha. They had mindfulness and > understanding of the level of samatha, but not understanding that > leads to the eradication of the belief in a self. > If there is no selection of particular objects, such as the > hindrances you mentioned in another post, then we can begin to learn > that whatever arises does so because of its own conditions. When Buddha chooses certain types of dhammas to talk about, it seems like he is making a special selection. How should one avoid thinking of it this way? I know he is giving more than just an example - he's saying that knowing the hindrances has special value. So what should one do with that kind of statement? Sometimes > Kh Sujin says: we cannot do anything. She also said that when someone > tries not to do anything, there is an idea of self trying not to do > anything. I had to think this over. A good remark. Any trying with an > idea of self may be in the way of developing understanding of the > reality appearing at this moment. It may be trying, then we learn > that this is conditioned, just a dhamma. Thanks, that is good to think about. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #119806 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 4:25 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi Rob E Sorry to upset you (sincerely) hope it doesn't affect your sleep. Hopefully my metta-ful final post to Alex will soothe your ragged nerves. Today I read that afosa is compared in the commentaries to sandalwood....mmmm, sandalwood.... Metta, Phil #119807 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 4:28 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi again Oops, adosa, not afosa. That sounds Italian... Metta, Phil #119808 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 4:30 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? epsteinrob Hi Phil... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E > > Sorry to upset you (sincerely) hope it doesn't affect your sleep. Hopefully my metta-ful final post to Alex will soothe your ragged nerves. > > Today I read that afosa is compared in the commentaries to sandalwood....mmmm, sandalwood.... Yes, sandalwood is nice... What's afosa...? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #119809 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 4:31 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again > Oops, adosa, not afosa. That sounds Italian... Oh, okay. Adosa, yes that is a nice comparison... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #119810 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 10:27 am Subject: Serene is Equanimity! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is Release by Equanimity Achieved? The Blessed Buddha once said: And how, Bhikkhus, is release of mind by serene equanimity (Upekkh ) achieved? What does this liberation have as its destination, what is its culmination, what is its sweet fruit, and what is the ultimate goal of mental release by universally neutral & imperturbable equanimity? Here, a Bhikkhu dwells pervading first the entire frontal quadrant, with a mind imbued with infinite equanimity, so the second quadrant, the 3rd quadrant, and the 4th quadrant. As above, so below, across, and everywhere, & as to all beings also to himself, he dwells pervading the entire universe with a mind saturated with unlimited equanimity, immense, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without any enmity, without any ill will! Thus prepared and expanded, he then develops: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening joined with limitless equanimity. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening fused with such equanimity. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening together with infinite equanimity. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening accompanied with absolute equanimity. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening linked with serene equanimity. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening associated with equanimity. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening joined with endless equanimity. Based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release. If he then wishes: "May I dwell experiencing repulsiveness in anything attractive & tempting", then he can dwell experiencing repulsiveness therein. If he wishes: "May I dwell experiencing delight in anything disgusting & repulsive," then he dwells experiencing pleasing beauty in whatever is disgusting! If he wishes: "May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive", he dwells experiencing repulsive disgust in it. If he wishes: "May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive", he experiences only unrepulsive beauty by it! If he wishes: "Avoiding both the repulsive and the unrepulsive, may I dwell in equanimity , just aware and clearly comprehending", then he dwells in equanimity, just aware and clearly comprehending! Or else, completely transcending the realm of infinitude of consciousness, only aware that there is nothing, he enters & dwells in the sphere of the void, empty & vacuous nothingness.. I tell you Bhikkhus for a wise Bhikkhu here, who has not yet penetrated to an even more superior mental release, the mental release by imperturbable equanimity has the subtle sphere of the nothingness as its final culmination! <....> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 115-21] 46: The Links. 54: Joined by Friendliness... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #119811 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:06 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Phil, > Ph: It's almost comical, we could have a "guess where Alex is going with this?" contest. > > Alex, in the future, please get straight to your point without the courtroom techniques, thanks! pt: Phil, some time ago here you kindly warned me not to become like Scott. I am now returning the favor. Best wishes pt #119812 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:19 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi pt, > pt: Phil, some time ago here you kindly warned me not to become like Scott. I am now returning the favor. Ph: I don't think I warned you not to, I wondered if you would have enough patience not to. Very few do have enough patience, Sarah, Nina, Jon .. will you? I think you might. :) Metta, Phil #119813 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:28 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? rjkjp1 Could i ask what is wrong with Scott and why you would send a public messqag advising a member not t be like him --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > > Ph: It's almost comical, we could have a "guess where Alex is going with this?" contest. > > > > Alex, in the future, please get straight to your point without the courtroom techniques, thanks! > > > pt: Phil, some time ago here you kindly warned me not to become like Scott. I am now returning the favor. > > Best wishes > pt > #119814 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:44 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi RobK, > RK: Could i ask what is wrong with Scott and why you would send a public messqag advising a member not t be like him pt: Scott and now Phil are repeatedly resorting to ridiculing others. Aside from ridicule not striking me as the best way to convey their excellent knowledge of dhamma to others, I also don't like it. I say this as a regular member, not as any kind of authority on dsg. Best wishes pt #119815 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:34 pm Subject: Letter from Ivan 2 Too much anatta? philofillet Hi all Here is another letter from Ivan, writing as Matt Roke. There are some people who think there is too much of an emphasis on anatta. His response: > James: When everything is anatta, anatta, anatta, then the reader will > develop a sense of helplessness and apathy toward the Buddha's teaching (as > Howard has pointed out). > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: We cannot eliminate anatta from the teaching and whether it is mentioned > many times or a few times, most people will reject it and many will fear the > concept because it means the loss of a self. It is not anatta that > conditions helplessness or apathy towards the Buddha's teaching, but rather > attachment to a self and worldly things and lack of understanding about what > is real. > > ==================================== > > James: I go so far as to say that you aren't even teaching the Buddha's > teaching; you are teaching something else entirely. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: If we are not Sotapana or higher, isn't it rather foolish to tell others > that they are wrong? Thinking forms `views', which we cling to as being `my > views' and we then take them to be `right'. Those views can then prevent one > from comprehending what others are trying to say, even when they may not be > wrong. > > ==================================== > > James: The reason I ask this question is because I feel that you place too > much emphasis on anatta (more emphasis than should be placed). > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: Being caught up in concept and arguing about what is right or wrong is > not the same as knowing realities that make concepts and understanding what > is right and wrong. When realities are not known, then concepts, including > Dhamma concepts, are what distracts from knowing them. > > ==================================== > > James: Nina, now you are claiming that every single sutta is about anatta, > even when not expressly stated. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: People find that different aspects of the teaching will clarify Dhamma > for them. For Nina it is anatta, for others it may be anicca or dukkha, or > some other facet of the teaching. If Nina wants to express her understanding > of Dhamma by emphasizing anatta that is her prerogative, and I am sure there > are others who find that works for them too. Just because you don't favour > it, doesn't mean it's wrong. > > Maybe Nina is pointing out that every single sutta is about anatta or maybe > she was saying that every single dhamma moment while reading those suttas is > anatta, anatta, anatta. > > ==================================== > > James: What if I said that every sutta the Buddha gave was really about > dukkha, even if not expressly stated? "Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha, everything > is about dukkhaWouldn't you say that I had an unhealthy obsession with > dukkha?...There needs to be balance in what is presented. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: The Buddha said we should free ourselves from the bog before trying to > free others. Being caught up in the concept of how `the Dhamma should be > taught' is not the same as knowing the true nature of dhammas. So, why not > try to liberate ourselves before we decide what is the best way to liberate > others? > > ==================================== > > James: I feel that you place too much emphasis on anattaeverything is > anatta, anatta, anattaI find this as proof of your obsession with anatta. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: When there is no true appreciation that moments of thinking and other > dhammas are subject to arising and therefore to cessation, then it may be > difficult to appreciate anatta, anatta, anatta. However, your obsessive > aversion to anatta could be what prevents the understanding of this. > > ==================================== > > James: There needs to be balance in presentation of the Buddha's teaching or > there is likely to be misinterpretation. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: The Buddha's teaching is very profound and that is why he hesitated to > teach Dhamma. No matter how you teach it, and even though we have the word > of the Buddha to guide us, it is and will continue to be misinterpreted. > > For some people, Nina's approach has helped introduce them to Dhamma and > they have benefited from what she has written. Rather than spend your time > having dosa towards her interpretation of Dhamma, why don't you just share > with others how you understanding Dhamma, which is also more likely to > condition metta. > > ==================================== > > James: I don't believe the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma, while Nina does. > Therefore, there will probably never be agreement on this issue > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: If it were possible to prove that the Buddha did or did not teach the > Abhidhamma then there would not be this difference of opinion. > > However, if Abhidhamma is the word of the Buddha, then you are rejecting his > teaching and the Dhamma and you may be influencing others to reject them > also. And by doubting one third of the Tipitaka you may even lead others to > dispute the validity of the Vinaya or even the Suttas. So one should be > careful what they discard and influence others to discard, because if they > are wrong in their evaluation it could be detrimental to Dhamma and to > others' understanding and that would have to be for that person's great > karmic misfortune. > > Would it not be better to embrace and advise others to embrace all of the > Tipitaka, while keeping in mind the Buddha's instruction on what should be > believed? > > ==================================== > > James: I will have to read about anatta until I want to puke anatta. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > M: Attachment to your own view can do that; it conditions dosa puking > towards other peoples' opinions and a metta void. > > > Matt > > _________________________________________________________________ > Nothing but cars & over 100,000 of them at carsales.com.au > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom\ %2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801577%2Fpi%5F1005244%2Fai%5F8367\ 52&_t=12345&_r=emailtagline_tig_over100k&_m=EXT > #119816 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pt's visit by car - this moment does not mean crashing into trees! sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I heard Kh Sujin say that kasina also represents colour and that > this can be an object of vipassanaa. Perhaps Jon can ask Khun Kampan > end January for texts. When the Buddha speaks about samatha subjects > I am inclined to think that this is also for vipassanaa. Samatha and > vipassanaa together, because samatha alone, what is the use? Perhaps > with this in mind we should read all the texts on samatha. .... S: If you look inthe Patisambhidamagga at the beginning, there are 201 dhammas to be "directly known" - these are all ultimate realitiesand include ten kasinas 72-81. The earth kasina is to be directly known. The water kasina is to be directly known. The air kasina, ..., athe blue kasina..., ...The consciousness kasina is to be directly known. [10 kasinas] I once asked KS about why these are here and she said they are realities referred to here. Kasina: everything. Whatever we read is about the development of vipassana - so even when the texts are referring to samatha subjects or jhana atainment or the different activities as discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta (or any other sutta), there are just dhammas, just realities to be known. No other purpose for the Teachings and never any Self to develop any kind of kusala. Metta Sarah ===== #119817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Scott, Op 3-nov-2011, om 17:45 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > > N: "...Just as I heard this morning: there should be sati all the > time Thai: thug mya), no matter when eating, talking, walking, etc. A > good reminder and we know that sati cannot be manipulated by a self." > > Scott: Here is another one of those statements as we just > discussed. How do you understand the phrase: 'there should be sati > all the time?' Is this a statement of possibility? Of command? To > initiate activity designed to make sati arise 'all the time?' Is it > even possible for sati to arise 'all the time?' > -------- > N: I was surprised myself and checked the Thai dictionary. Yes, all the time. Of course we know this is not possible at the moments of seeing, etc. and also, we accumulated so much ignorance. There is bound to be forgetfulness most of the time. It is not a command, obviously, more like a 'pep talk'. She repeated this 'all the time' many times. It is strong, isn't it? On the other hand, as I heard this morning, beware not to try to plan sati or be fixed on it. One may read texts with the aim to have more sati, or one may want to be alone so that sati would arise, and that is wrong. We read and study in order to have more understanding. There is always the balance that should (should ;-)) ) be taken care of. If we do not try to plan sati and it arises, that is sammaa sati, she said. When I have time I shall type out the whole passage. It is very good (Ann, tape Vithayu radio tape, 24, series to be recommended). Another strong text about the people of Kuru: co to the satipa.t.thaanasutta: Kh Sujin often speaks about someone who usually develops mindfulness (Thai: pen phu mi pokketi cerun sati). Thai pokketi is in Pali: pakati, natural. It can become one's nature. Again, not trying with an idea of self. ----- P.S. Your small children must have become quite grown up meanwhile. And the little dog? ---- Nina. #119818 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >>P: I have mentionned this before, but the talk in > > which a Thai woman mentionned a friend who is suffering from > > loneliness, and A.SUjin said, help them understand. (i.e correct > > understanding that there is only nama and rupa, a beginning of > > understanding deep liberating Dhamma, intellectually.) But what if > > he can't understand, she was asked? Then he will have to suffer > > from loneliness, was the answer. That seems very tough, almost > > cold, the cold shower that you mentionned once. But it is the truth. > > > ------- > N: Loneliness: he thinks of himself instead of being concerned for > others. He does not know what true friendship is: thinking of others' > welfare and then one is not lonely at all. It all pertains to the > citta, kusala citta or akusala citta. ..... S: I meant to tell you that just before we left Manly (Sydney), I was having a leisurely chat with a couple of the other swimmers in our group, one man and one woman. They are both divorcees about my age and they were both talking about loneliness and their difficulties living alone. Your messages encouraged me to talk about loneliness and self-concern as opposed to showing friendship and thinking of others' welfare, leading on to a little about 'present moment' living alone, regardless of the circumstances. The lady appreciated it a lot and thanked me the next day, whereas the man brushed it off. It all depends on our inclinations at the time what we hear, what is meaningful. Anyway, just wished to share.... > > Ph: So by accepting that the conventional kinds of comforting do > > not truly lead out of suffering, yes, we have to be heroic. > > > >P: Of course we still have an accumulated tendency to enjoy those > > comforts, such as letters from friends, visits from friends, sweet > > little gifts when we are ill etc, and we will continue to do so, > > and continue to offer them to others. They are not "bad", of > > course, just don't lead out. Only understanding really and truly > > helps. > > > ------ >N: It is not all lobha, kusala and akusala are alternating. We can > appreciate the comfort friends are giving us, that is not akusala. > You spoke before about seeking comfort in Dhamma, and the inclination > to lobha. I think of 'Dhamma kamo', fondness of Dhamma, as one of the > protections or supports, just posted in Sangiitisutta: < he loves the > Dhamma and delights in hearing it, he is especially fond of the > advanced doctrine and discipline (abhidhamme abhivanaye)..> > Kusala citta with wisdom can be accompanied by happy feeling. One can > rejoice in the truth. .... S: You both make good points here! Metta Sarah ===== #119819 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Good discussion. > > Me: "...'Book knowledge' is a part of the beginnings of pariyatti, as you know and agree." > > Sarah: "I would say 'it depends'. We can't define pariyatti in terms of 'book knowledge' or scholarship of any kind." > > Scott: Okay. 'It depends' on what? This comes up below. .... S: It depends on understanding *now" of the present dhammas (or concepts of present dhammas) as we write, read or move around. <...> >> Sarah: "...I am saying that the only conditions for pariyatti leading to patipatti are the hearing and wise considering about present dhammas." > > Scott: Does 'hearing about present dhammas' mean mundane discussion or mundande study of texts? .... Sarah: In paramattha terms, it means the hearing of particular sounds (or seeing of particular visible objects) when associating with "the wise". In other words, if one never comes across the Buddha's Teachings, there cannot be the wise consideration. .... >Scott: Does 'wise considering' mean 'thinking about?' I know the mental factor is yoniso manisikaara and I understand this to be arising in relation to dhammas but is not equivalent to 'thinking wisely.' ... Sarah: Kusala thinking with pa~n~naa about realities. The cetasika, manasikaara, arises with every citta, as you know, so at these moments there is kusala manasikaara, but the yoniso manasikaara referred to is referring to the entire mind-door process. The point I'm stressing is just that there can be reflecting on cittas, cetasikas and rupas with kusala cittas or with akusala cittas, wisely or unwisely, even if the words and the text thought about/recited are "correct". Metta Sarah p.s I've somewhat lost track of what I've replied to with yahoo's delays, repeats and our travels - have a feeling I've replied to this one before, so snipping the rest!! ======= #119820 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:53 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Where does the Buddha make that distinction, between "mundane" jhana and the jhana of the NEP? Does he? If he does, I have another point to make on that point. :-))) If he doesn't, well... .... S: One snowy day, you might care to spend time in "Useful Posts" under "Jhanas - two meanings" and "Jhanas - mundane and supramundane". I think you'd enjoy it and you could share back here! Metta Sarah ====== #119821 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pt's visit by car - this moment does not mean crashing into trees! nilovg Dear Sarah, That is very good and very important. Next Sangiitisutta is about the jhaana subjects! It deals with entire, sakala. ----- Nina. Op 4-nov-2011, om 10:02 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: If you look inthe Patisambhidamagga at the beginning, there are > 201 dhammas to be "directly known" - these are all ultimate > realitiesand include ten kasinas > > 72-81. The earth kasina is to be directly known. The water kasina > is to be directly known. The air kasina, ..., athe blue > kasina..., ...The consciousness kasina is to be directly known. [10 > kasinas] > > I once asked KS about why these are here and she said they are > realities referred to here. Kasina: everything. > > Whatever we read is about the development of vipassana - so even > when the texts are referring to samatha subjects or jhana atainment > or the different activities as discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta > (or any other sutta), there are just dhammas, just realities to be > known. No other purpose for the Teachings and never any Self to > develop any kind of kusala. #119822 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:06 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: >> Sarah: "Isn't it just about common courtesy and goodwill, rather than about 'faking' and so on? Like when we're feeling ill, but we do those around us a favour by smiling, taking interest and not showing we're sick? I call this courtesy rather than faking." > > Scott: Well, yeah. But in 'minding my own cittas' there is a different set that come up than for you, of course. I'm not saying that 'you' are faking it, although you might be more capable of that in times of need than am I. As I said, not claiming correctness, I prefer to aim for 'basic' when awash with crabbiness and impatience - and barely manage to get even there. I have this thing about not wanting to 'fake' something and sometimes not even the so-called goal of 'common courtesy and goodwill' is enough to move me. ... Sarah: Well, when we consider the others' welfare, no time to think about 'fake' or the important 'me'! .... > >Scott: I've never understood, for example, the metta thing where one 'has' (fakes?) metta so that others can think well of one. .... Sarah: Of course, that is not metta or any kind of kusala concern for others - it's still 'precious me'. .... >Scott: 'Real' metta, naturally expressed would have that effect on some, I guess. I'm not saying that I don't like it when someone thinks well of me, but do I act just for that end? I do not, Madam That seems fake to me. Like trying to be good so I get a better rebirth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Don't you just get what you get - that is, isn't it more complicated than that? .... Sarah: That all seems to be more 'me'... even the being concerned about the effect... ... > > It's like: 'Do I write Sarah or Dear Sarah? I mean she wrote Dear Scott but sometimes it's Hi Scott. If I write Dear when I'm crabby then I'm a fake. If I write nothing then Sarah thinks ill of me. If I want Dear then I'm insecure. If I think Hi is a downgraded Dear then I'm paranoid. .... Sarah: Definitely!! And what else is paranoia and all this projection but 'Me, Me' and yet more 'Me' without a shred of metta at such moments of self-concern. .... >Scott: So, whatever, I'll just write the name and be done with it all.' Hasn't it occurred to you yet that I'm (internet and otherwise) socially inept? That's just accumulations - he said utterly misusing and abusing the actual fundamental meaning of that popular term. > > Rant, rant, rant. .... Sarah: ;-)) (don't over-analyse the smiles either!!) Metta - just friendliness with the other's welfare in mind, kind assistance as giving the helpful quotes- no need for introspection, about 'me and my cittas' and no 'shoulds' either in the sense of any rules.....just conditioned dhammas - some helpful, some unhelpful, some relating to the path, most not! Metta Sarah ===== #119823 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:23 pm Subject: Re: view 'I have no self' is wrong view sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > " 2. Translated from the Visuddhi-Magga (chap. xviii) > > > Just as the word "chariot" is but a mode of expression for axle, wheels, chariot-body, pole, <....> but when we come to examine the elements of being one by one, we discover that in the absolute sense there is no living entity there to form a basis for such figments as "I am," or "I"; in other words, that in the absolute sense there is only name and form. ...." > S: "In the absolute sense there is only name and form" - this is the point of these similes - in the absolute sense, there are only namas and rupas. Anything else is a concept, an idea, a means of expression only. > > D: Yes, 'when we come to examine the elements of being one by one ' there is only nama and rupa , in an absolute sense only mental and bodily phenomena ..leaving aside the arupa states of Jhana. .... S: We don't need to leave anything aside. In the ultimate sense, there are only ever namas and rupas. Arupa jhanas are also namas. ... >D: Recalling from a previous quotation 'the particle is fundamental but the ant is more signicant ' reminds on the need to be aware that an ant can be examined in all details , but from all its parts the idea what the ' functioning system ant ' means , can not be concluded. > When you say it is a means of expression only , the knowledge underlying the given term or category , how things are functioning in our world , is neglected. > This knowledge -which we arduously aquired by experience -is the understanding we need in our encounter with the world. .... S: This is all thinking about various concepts. The thinking cittas are namas, the concepts, the ideas are not realities in an ultimate sense. The goal of the teachings is to understand the realities now. Only by doing so will the Noble Truths ever be realised. ... > D: We wouldn't survive without these ideas.. .... S: There is no suggestion of not having ideas, of not thinking about computers, ants or people. The Buddha also thought about ideas, but for the ariyans, no taking of ideas for being realities of any kind. If we don't think about the 'ant' where is it? .... > I agree with the proposition of truth in an absolute sense ( reserving 'ulimate truth ' for nibbana), ..... S: There are four kinds of ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) - citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The Truths concern all these dhammas. ... >but concede the conventional truth more significance. .... S: Conventional truth is thinking and this is a paramattha dhamma that can be known too. The ideas, however significant, are ideas only. ... > Whereas you - as far as I understand - admit the latter only as a means of expression only . .... S: Yes - not me, but what is taught by the Buddha and can be proven now. Only realities can be directly known. Conventional truth is thinking through the mind-door only. ... > I copied Jina's comment because he emphasized something important : the whole Dhamma (incl.dhammas) has to be understood as raft to the other shore. .... S: The only raft to the other shore is the understanding of dhammas. .... > Means in order to get disentchanted, develop dispassion and so detachment from the world of suffering. ... S: Yes, again through understanding only. .... > To see truth from the angle of an absolute sense only , involves the danger of neglecting the path training. .... S: On the contrary, there is no path training without the seeing of the truth, i.e the understanding of absolute dhammas only. This is the path - right understanding of dhammas and associated right mental factors. .... > I think it is that what ' the other camp' tries to convey but met with refusal. ..... S: Perhaps 'the other camp' [lol!] would care to discuss further. Metta Sarah ===== #119824 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:27 pm Subject: Do you wield power over khandas? (was [dsg] Re: No-control & Destiny sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: just a reminder: I think you may well find that the Sama~n~naphala sutta and commentaries is amongst the small translation booklets that Ken O kindly sent you, so you may like to take a look at your pile of books for it.... > >R: Well...hm...Yes! I did find it among the books that Ken O. very kindly sent me - how did you know...? ;-) In addition, as I thumbed through it just now, my thumb literally clicked the book over directly to the page where the subcommentary on this very passage is cited. That seems like an interesting "coincidence..." Thanks, Sarah -- and Ken O.! > > I'll look at the subcommentary and see if I have anything to report... .... S: :-))) Seems like I can see your bookshelf (or hidden stash of books) better than you can! it was very kind of Ken O to send you these wonderful translations with commentaries - I remember how excited we were when they were first published, pieces of gold. Looking forward to your futher report. Metta Sarah ===== #119825 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? nilovg Dear Alex, What an amount of posts coming down on you. I try to answer in my turn. Op 4-nov-2011, om 2:03 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Time is a concept, number is a concept, breaking the mind into > large amount of cittas that occur in a certain time period is > conceptual. Any kinds of arguments based on "because cittas happen > so fast..." is conceptual. > > Since "identity/difference" is conceptual, breaking up cittas into > rigid categories is conventional, since no citta is ultimately > identical or different from such and such a category. The > conceptualizing mind makes notions of "identity/difference". ------ N: Sure, time, number, day etc. are concepts. Perhaps you are wondering what to make out when reading about seven javanacittas, or one ruupa lasting as long as seventeen moments of citta. All these numbers are actually comparitive notions. No need to find out how long these moments are or to think of time. Seeing is only one moment of citta and then our reactions in the form of kusala cittas or akusala cittas are seven. Seven times as long as seeing, but who can count, no need to. Seventeen moments of citta as long as one ruupa. This fits in with a process of cittas arising on account of a ruupa that is experienced and that has not fallen away yet. Citta is real. There is seeing now, and it can be cognized. There is dosa on account of what is seen, and dosa is real. Dosa lasts seven times longer than seeing, a good reminder. We keep on accumulating it. Nina. #119826 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? nilovg Dear Connie, correct. Notice the -ena ending, instrumental case. Nina. Op 4-nov-2011, om 0:41 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > > vijjamaanena avijjamaana - non-existent based on existent > > avijjamaanena vijjamaana - existent based on non-existent #119827 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "I was surprised myself and checked the Thai dictionary. Yes, all the time. Of course we know this is not possible at the moments of seeing, etc. and also, we accumulated so much ignorance. There is bound to be forgetfulness most of the time..." Scott: Yeah, I was also thinking of moments of seeing and the like. So, 'sati all the time' but only where it is possible for sati to arise - not at moments where conditions are not conducive - and by this I mean in a 'technical' sense as in moments where it cannot naturally arise. N: "...It is not a command, obviously, more like a 'pep talk'. She repeated this 'all the time' many times. It is strong, isn't it?..." Scott: It's like saying that it is possible that sati can be a power and when it is it is arising naturally with great frequency. It's a statement of possibility. N: "...On the other hand, as I heard this morning, beware not to try to plan sati or be fixed on it...There is always the balance that should (should ;-)) ) be taken care of..." Scott: Yes, I agree. And yeah, that 'should' again but not to be misunderstood (which I don't). N: "...Another strong text about the people of Kuru: co to the satipa.t.thaanasutta...Kh Sujin often speaks about someone who usually develops mindfulness...natural. It can become one's nature. Again, not trying with an idea of self." Scott: Again, agreed. This is possible in a natural way. N: "P.S. Your small children must have become quite grown up meanwhile. And the little dog?" Scott: Yes, almost 12 and almost 15. And Flower is still around too (plus 3 cats, the eldest being 19 and we're all like, 'Dead yet?' everyday. So far, she is not). I've lost track of the dog's age - 10? Scott. #119828 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 11:24 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sarah: "In paramattha terms, it means the hearing of particular sounds (or seeing of particular visible objects) when associating with 'the wise'. In other words, if one never comes across the Buddha's Teachings, there cannot be the wise consideration." Scott: Agreed. In this case, 'the wise' refers to the Dhamma in the form of reading or hearing, I guess. Or perhaps as well to the presence of pa~n~naa? Sarah: "Kusala thinking with pa~n~naa about realities. The cetasika, manasikaara, arises with every citta, as you know, so at these moments there is kusala manasikaara, but the yoniso manasikaara referred to is referring to the entire mind-door process." Scott: Okay, cool. The 'thinking' you refer too is then including the 'thought content' I guess - you know like the actual concepts that are formed into mental phrases and sentences and the like? Or, in other words, can you clarify 'entire mind-door process?' Terms like 'process' (and 'should') can be misleading or confusing. It you are referring to 'wholes' such as a 'complete thought about the Dhamma' then this has to be made clear somehow. Sarah: "The point I'm stressing is just that there can be reflecting on cittas, cetasikas and rupas with kusala cittas or with akusala cittas, wisely or unwisely, even if the words and the text thought about/recited are 'correct'." Scott: Agreed. Scott. #119829 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 11:34 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Well, when we consider the others' welfare, no time to think about 'fake' or the important 'me'!" Scott: Right, because then the consideration of others' welfare would actually be related naturally to mettaa and this would naturally not be fake or about 'me.' Me: "'Real' metta, naturally expressed would have that effect on some, I guess. I'm not saying that I don't like it when someone thinks well of me, but do I act just for that end? I do not, Madam That seems fake to me. Like trying to be good so I get a better rebirth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Don't you just get what you get - that is, isn't it more complicated than that?" Sarah: "That all seems to be more 'me'... even the being concerned about the effect..." Scott: Except that my point is that I *don't* find myself 'concerned about the effect.' Even if I'm supposed to somehow think about 'a good rebirth' I don't find that I do. Thinking about 'fake' is what I do, and that is about 'me' obviously. Sarah: "...Metta - just friendliness with the others' welfare in mind, kind assistance as giving the helpful quotes- no need for introspection, about 'me and my cittas' and no 'shoulds' either in the sense of any rules.....just conditioned dhammas - some helpful, some unhelpful, some relating to the path, most not!" Scott (Incorrigible): Yeah, when it's related to actual mettaa it's friendliness. And so, ha ha, when, on that oh so rare occasion, I seem kind, then it might actually be kindness, rather than fake (again: ha ha)... Scott. #119830 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:18 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi pt > pt: Scott and now Phil are repeatedly resorting to ridiculing others. Aside from ridicule not striking me as the best way to convey their excellent knowledge of dhamma to others, I also don't like it. I say this as a regular member, not as any kind of authority on dsg. I would like to point out that I started ridiculing people before Scott, I resent your giving him credit. I've been impatient and short-tempered since late 2004, when I started clinging strongly to the DSG way and got into some legendary fights with people who disagreed. (I think if you search under "James" and "dog" and "kneel" you will find some great ridiculing.) And then, starting in mid 2006 after I made the mistake of listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi talks, I swung the other way and became bitchy and rude with "sujinists", as I called them. I was ridiculing Ken H for more than a year before Scott arrived back in his new crabbiness. So I have a full 7 years of mis-behaving, and my form of is heightened by alternating in a creepy way with obseqious friendliness and pandering to my Dhamma friends. Scott's version is outright crankiness, not as sophisticated as my form. You have noticed that I am very friendly with newcomers, and I appreciate your saying that I explain well to newcomers, but you will never find a case of me disagreeing patiently in an ongoing way with anyone who has a firmly rooted view opposed to mine, never. Never has happened, probably never will. In any case, please get your hierarchy right. I am more ridiculing than Scott. Thank you. Metta, Phil #119831 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:24 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "...I am more ridiculing than Scott." Scott: You're ridiculing me aren't you. Scott. #119832 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Your messages encouraged me to talk about loneliness and self-concern as opposed to showing friendship and thinking of others' welfare, leading on to a little about 'present moment' living alone, regardless of the circumstances. The lady appreciated it a lot and thanked me the next day, whereas the man brushed it off. It all depends on our inclinations at the time what we hear, what is meaningful. > > Anyway, just wished to share.... Interesting that you say "depends on our inclinatins at the time what we hear", or can hear. On another day, he might have been the one who appreciated it. But realistically we know that some of our non-Dhamma friends are far more likely to listen and hear. Could you say a little more, if you remember, about how you put your "present moment, living alone, regardless of the circumstances?" Did you go as far as saying "at this moment, only a moment of seeing, a moment of hearing" etc...no matter how firmly I believe that, still feel completely shy and idiotic about saying anything about it to people... Metta, Phil #119833 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:24 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... dhammasaro Good friend Rob E, Sincere warm thanks for your concern. FWIW, I am not a recent member... This ole bag of Texican bones has been a member for many, many years... even from the beginning, my messages have been delayed, edited and completed deleted without explanation. On a rare occasion I do get a private "nasty gram." In addition, I was rather sternly interrogated about why I asked a certain Dhamma question by one the moderators. I never saw any other member interrogated in the same manner. Hence, from the beginning years; I truly do not feel welcome here. You may blame Yahoo for these problems if you wish. Thanks again. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119834 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:33 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi Scott > Ph: "...I am more ridiculing than Scott." > > Scott: You're ridiculing me aren't you. You know the answer to that already. Cut out the courtroom tactics. m, p #119835 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:40 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "You know the answer to that already. Cut out the courtroom tactics." Scott: Waaahaaa. Mommy! Scott. #119836 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:42 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Phil, > Ph: ...you will never find a case of me disagreeing patiently in an ongoing way with anyone who has a firmly rooted view opposed to mine, never. Never has happened, probably never will. pt: Yet remember your favorite book, patience is one of the ten perfections - so there is no doubt that it is bound to happen at some point even in the situations you describe. Best wishes pt #119837 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 12:53 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi pt > pt: Yet remember your favorite book, patience is one of the ten perfections - so there is no doubt that it is bound to happen at some point even in the situations you describe. > Yes, that's true, it can happen occasionally. But you should see me at work, I'm the king of handling what I call "basket case" students, shy, socially hopeless weirdos (oops!) that make the other teachers run for cover. Amazing patience with them. But I guess with Dhamma it is a combination of strong clinging to Dhamma plus strong aversion about being online so much that leads to the impatience. And you have to know Scott is not cranky with his patients in the emergency psych ward. There is something about DSG that makes nice people cranky, with a very few exceptions. In any case, I would like to promise, or vow, or whatever that I will be patient, but that would indicate wrong understanding. I'll misbehave as long as I am here. More or less, that's the only question, and no way to know.,,, Metta, Phil #119838 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 1:27 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Phil, > Ph: In any case, I would like to promise, or vow, or whatever that I will be patient, but that would indicate wrong understanding. I'll misbehave as long as I am here. pt: I guess future's not to worry about too much in dhamma terms. What ultimately makes the difference I think is the appreciation of the value of patience now. Whether it happens in a situation, or when discussed directly, indirectly, etc. I find encouragement/reminders from others help in that way. Actually, this was discussed when I met Sarah and Jon last week, hopefully I'll find some time soon to write in a bit more detail about the discussion. Best wishes pt #119839 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 2:01 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi pt > > pt: I guess future's not to worry about too much in dhamma terms. What ultimately makes the difference I think is the appreciation of the value of patience now. Right you are, and of the disadvantage of impatience now... metta, Phil > #119840 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 2:44 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? rjkjp1 Dear Pt perhaps it is a matter of taste. robert What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you. (Jean Cocteau) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > > RK: Could i ask what is wrong with Scott and why you would send a public messqag advising a member not t be like him > > pt: Scott and now Phil are repeatedly resorting to ridiculing others. Aside from ridicule not striking me as the best way to convey their excellent knowledge of dhamma to others, I also don't like it. I say this as a regular member, not as any kind of authority on dsg. > > Best wishes > pt > #119841 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 2:52 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Where does the Buddha make that distinction, between "mundane" jhana and the jhana of the NEP? Does he? If he does, I have another point to make on that point. :-))) If he doesn't, well... > .... > S: One snowy day, you might care to spend time in "Useful Posts" under "Jhanas - two meanings" and "Jhanas - mundane and supramundane". I think you'd enjoy it and you could share back here! Thank you, I'd like to see that. I'm kind of bad about looking things up -- uh oh, more ammo for Scott -- but I will try to do this, as it is very interesting and I'd like to see it. The way my brain works it's much easier to go down the line of current messages and click them off than to do a search. I enjoy it but find it more confusing, what with the amount of various open projects and to-do lists I have to handle inbetween. But no excuse, I'll get to it and report back! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #119842 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 2:55 am Subject: Do you wield power over khandas? (was [dsg] Re: No-control & Destiny epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: :-))) Seems like I can see your bookshelf (or hidden stash of books) better than you can! Yes...Hmn...have you been developing your psychic powers by any chance...? > it was very kind of Ken O to send you these wonderful translations with commentaries - I remember how excited we were when they were first published, pieces of gold. Yes, Ken O. is a good Dhamma friend, very kind and generous, as are you and Nina. I am lucky to have these books, as well as K. Sujin's Survey and some of Nina's books. I must have done *something* right in a former life! > Looking forward to your futher report. Thanks, I will hope to get into that...! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #119843 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > > Good friend Rob E, > > Sincere warm thanks for your concern. > > FWIW, I am not a recent member... > > This ole bag of Texican bones has been a member for many, many years... even from the beginning, my messages have been delayed, edited and completed deleted without explanation. On a rare occasion I do get a private "nasty gram." > > In addition, I was rather sternly interrogated about why I asked a certain Dhamma question by one the moderators. I never saw any other member interrogated in the same manner. > > Hence, from the beginning years; I truly do not feel welcome here. > > You may blame Yahoo for these problems if you wish. Well, I would just say that I'm sure there are plenty of people here who do welcome you, and I have no reason to think that the moderators may not be among them. Certainly I see many posts from you, so at least you're not completely blocked! :-) Anyway, anytime you raise a substantive issue I'll be happy to see it. Sometimes when the messages get to all be about how much we are persecuted or how we feel about other list members, as occasionally comes up around here, it is a distraction from our exchanges on the Dhamma. I do it too, so I'm not pointing fingers, although sometimes I do... Since there have been several sub-threads that seem to be raising the tension and negativity level lately, I think we should all maybe take a step back and take a deep breath [perhaps even with a bit of anapansati thrown in for samatha infusion] and try to get back to what we're really interested in about the Dhamma. I'm sure with all your experience you have plenty to contribute on substantive issues, so looking forward to your posts in those areas! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #119844 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:33 am Subject: My Two Cents Re: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and all) - In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:04:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Phil, all, >P: Hmmmm, I wonder if there will be an end to all that refuting. >=========================================== I wonder about that as well. Hopefully there will be end soon. Hopefully this (discussing dhamma) stage will pass ASAP. >P:If you are successful, it will fuel desire for more, and you will >always find more and more points to refute. >========================================== You could be right. Though I believe that if the key point is refuted, then no need to worry about secondary minor details. (I need to avoid switching on the computer.) With best wishes, Alex ============================== Alex, I think there is no point in continuing making various sorts of requests for conversation, refutations, etc when these overtures are clearly unwelcome. My perspective: "Why persist? It's not good for you or them." With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #119845 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:01 am Subject: Re: view 'I have no self' is wrong view moellerdieter Hi Sarah , you wrote: I think it is that what ' the other camp' tries to convey but met with refusal. ..... S: Perhaps 'the other camp' [lol!] would care to discuss further. D: certainly . .. I suspect ,some students from the other camp - I mean those not enrolled at ASU (Acharn Sujin University ) - would not even care but seem to be rather addicted to discuss further ... :-) For my part I would prefer to change the title , leaving the previous points rest for a while and find a new topic of common interest. ( we both still dance to different music, don't we? ) My idea: to suggest (ladies first) fitting practical examples (or similes , metaphors etc. ) for the 52 cetasikas, one by one , so that we know/remember what is meant by any mental state. Possibly Nina or others have done something like that already ( which could be discussed ).. But first of all my question, having our first E Mail exchange in mind: would you like to dance ? ;-) with Metta Dieter #119846 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 6:18 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) philofillet Hi Rob E > > S: One snowy day, you might care to spend time in "Useful Posts" under "Jhanas - two meanings" and "Jhanas - mundane and supramundane". I think you'd enjoy it and you could share back here! > > Thank you, I'd like to see that. I'm kind of bad about looking things up -- uh oh, more ammo for Scott -- but I will try to do this, as it is very interesting and I'd like to see it. The way my brain works it's muchee easier to go down the line of current messages and click them off than to do a search. Ph; You've been promoting meditation at DSG for around 10 years and you don't know the difference between mundane and supramundane jhanas? Rob, I'm sorry, but tgat's just too much. Get serious. It's easier to scan the list of messages than do a search? If you were a person who popped in once and a while that would be understandable but come on ... You can freak out again, but honestly what you wrote above is .. ummm... oh.... wait...... sandalwood.....sandalwood....mmmmmmmmmmm metta phil p.s seriously, get serious. #119847 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 6:34 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Rob E > > > > S: One snowy day, you might care to spend time in "Useful Posts" under "Jhanas - two meanings" and "Jhanas - mundane and supramundane". I think you'd enjoy it and you could share back here! > > > > Thank you, I'd like to see that. I'm kind of bad about looking things up -- uh oh, more ammo for Scott -- but I will try to do this, as it is very interesting and I'd like to see it. The way my brain works it's muchee easier to go down the line of current messages and click them off than to do a search. > > Ph; You've been promoting meditation at DSG for around 10 years and you don't know the difference between mundane and supramundane jhanas? Rob, I'm sorry, but tgat's just too much. Get serious. It's easier to scan the list of messages than do a search? If you were a person who popped in once and a while that would be understandable but come on ... ...seriously, get serious. Apparently, you are ignoring my requests to stop monitoring, finger-wagging, dictating and commanding people around here, particularly me, in how to be "good dsg members" in your vaunted opinion. I'll just repeat my request to cut it out and tend to your own many infirmities. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #119848 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 7:33 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) philofillet Hi Rob E Thanks, I'll try to mind my own infirmities, good advice. I double triple quadruple cross my heart and hope to die promise to stay out of your way. Metta, Phil #119849 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 8:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N: Sure, time, number, day etc. are concepts. >================================================ Thank you very much for clear answer. In my recent posts, I realized that talk about duration of cittas, amount of cittas happening per unit of time, identity/distinction, categorizing, etc, are concepts. The only way it seems to me to keep "many trillions of cittas occur per second" idea is to allow concepts to actually exist as mind objects that are perceived by the mind but not by 5 sense consciousness. Concepts, IMHO, are mental objects. With best wishes, Alex #119850 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 8:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? nichiconn you got it, Alex. from SPD: - concept is dhammaaramma.na. It is an object that can only be known through the mind-door - There are six classes of dhammaaramma.na. Five classes are paramattha dhammas and one class is not paramattha dhamma. - The six classes are the five sense organs, the sixteen subtle ruupas, citta, cetasika, nibbaana, and concept. - Only paramattha dhammas can be the object of satipa.t.thaana. connie > Concepts, IMHO, are mental objects. > #119851 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:14 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Nina, and Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Scott: Here is another one of those statements as we just > > discussed. How do you understand the phrase: 'there should be sati > > all the time?' ... > > -------- > > > N: I was surprised myself and checked the Thai dictionary. Yes, all > the time. ... > It is not a command, obviously, more like a 'pep talk'. She repeated > this 'all the time' many times. It is strong, isn't it? On the other > hand ... beware not to try to plan sati or be > fixed on it. ... It seems that K. Sujin, like Buddha, used such pep talks to inspire the cittas that would arise with sati. Is that a fair reading of such admonitions? > bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika generally by nature were > earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their > daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with > mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not > heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing > of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," > then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is > shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of > the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she > said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of > Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your > life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human > state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be."> > > Kh Sujin often speaks about someone who usually develops mindfulness > (Thai: pen phu mi pokketi cerun sati). Thai pokketi is in Pali: > pakati, natural. It can become one's nature. Again, not trying with > an idea of self. This suggests that, without a false idea of a controlling self, one can become acclimated and accustomed to sati, and consciously cultivate it. The women in the story above were expected to practice one of the applications of mindfulness and to become skilled at it. As K. Sujin said, quoted above: "It can become one's nature." Best, Rob . - - - - - - - - - - #119852 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:46 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... dhammasaro Good friend Rob E; et al Again, sincere warm thanks for another kind message. Well, as a mere, but serious, Dhamma-vinaya student here at DSG, I rarely participate in opinions nor the minutiae Dhamma discussions which are simply opinions, imho. Perhaps, my very few posts over the some ten (10) years are not perceived as "substantive"; but, just perceived as rather pedestrian and vulgar; after all, what can one expect from an ole Texican, heh??? So be it... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............... rest deleted .......................... ....................... #119853 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 6:07 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... dhammasaro Good friend Rob E, Sincere warm thanks for your reply. No, I do not expect any sympathy... Did you perceive any problem in the many hour missing very public reply message to you? You did not state... [bummer] FWIW, evidently you have not read my posts over the some ten (10) years... the vast majority are based on the Dhamma-vinaya... I abhor opinions!!! If, they are not present; someone deleted them!!! Not, I!!! Unfortunately, I am a mere human... I am not an elitist!!! Just a pedestrian, vulgar ole Texican... [bummers] peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:55:12 -0700 From: epsteinrob@... Hi Chuck.If the moderators are screening your messages for any reason, I am sure they have informed you about this and let you know the reason. <....> #119854 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 6:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... dhammasaro Good friend Rob E, et al Can we go back to the original purpose of this thread, yes? der Fuehrer here is der Fuehrer; no argument... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ................ rest deleted ............... #119855 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 8:08 am Subject: Defaming Sentient Beings; was: Reply to Rob E. dhammasaro Good friends all, What did the Historic Buddha teach on defaming sentient beings? Warm thanks for Tipitaka sources... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Post script: It is 5:09 PM on the USA East Coast --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: <...> > Well, I would just say that I'm sure there are plenty of people here who do welcome you, and I have no reason to think that the moderators may not be among them. Certainly I see many posts from you, so at least you're not completely blocked! :-) Anyway, anytime you raise a substantive issue I'll be happy to see it. <....> #119856 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:12 am Subject: RE: My Two Cents Re: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? dhammasaro Good friend Howard, et al On: ..., I think there is no point in continuing making various sorts of requests for conversation, refutations, etc when these overtures are clearly unwelcome. My perspective: "Why persist? It's not good for you or them." With metta, Howard .............................. I agree... is there not something called, "Noble Silence"??? peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ................ rest deleted ................... #119857 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:23 am Subject: The 7 Mental Purifications! bhikkhu5 Friends: Mental Purification comes in Seven Stages! 1: Mental Purification by Morality. 2: Mental Purification by Meditation. 3: Mental Purification via Right View. 4: Mental Purification by overcoming Doubt. 5: Purification by Knowledge & Vision of what is Path & non-Path. 6: Purification by Knowledge & Vision of the Noble 8-fold Way. 7: Purification by Directly Experienced Knowledge and Vision. 6-WORD EXACT Avoiding all Harm; Doing only Good; Purifying the Mind; This do all Buddhas teach! Dhammapada 183 <....> Sources: The moderate speech on the relay wagons MN24: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html The Seven Stages of Purification and the Insight Knowledges: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404506 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #119858 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:35 am Subject: beyond the initial 17 cittas nichiconn hi again, Alex, here is that ‘something further’ / mind-door processes description from the SPD that I was thinking of one of the times I said we should get back to the books: << The cittas of the eye-door process, namely the eye-door adverting-consciousness, seeing-consciousness, receiving-consciousness, investigating-consciousness, determining-consciousness, the javana-cittas and the tadaalambanacittas (retention), experience visible object that has not yet fallen away. They do not have a concept as object. >> c: etc, for the other full 17 step sense-door processes & then: << When the viithi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind-door process that arise after a sense-door process experience a sense object which has only just fallen away; they do not have a concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there are two or three kinds of viithi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind-door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javanacittas and two moments of tadaalambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between. Then there will be another series of mind-door process cittas that can have as its object a concept (such as shape and form, or the image of something as a “whole”) on account of a sense object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there will be more rounds of mind-door process cittas that follow. >> c: Also, a few other thoughts from the SPD that I meant to include in the last post to you: - All cittas, except the cittas that develop satipa.t.thaana and the sense-door process cittas, can have concepts as object. - Only if we develop satipa.t.thaana can we know whether a phenomenon is a paramattha dhamma. - If someone tries to avoid thinking of concepts pa~n~naa cannot be developed. connie connie #119859 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:37 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Rob E., (Nina), R: "It seems that K. Sujin, like Buddha, used such pep talks to inspire the cittas that would arise with sati. Is that a fair reading of such admonitions?" Scott: No. The idea of 'using' a pep talk 'to inspire' is wrong. This is what Nina and I are agreeing on. 'Should' doesn't mean 'should' when referring to dhammas that are not controllable by 'shoulds.' R: "This suggests that, without a false idea of a controlling self, one can become acclimated and accustomed to sati, and consciously cultivate it. The women in the story above were expected to practice one of the applications of mindfulness and to become skilled at it. As K. Sujin said, quoted above: 'It can become one's nature.'" Scott: No. You're just trying to force these statements into your own paradigm. Sati arises or sati doesn't arise. This is not at all like the 'acclimation' of a self to sati or a self becoming 'accustomed' to sati. One cannot 'consciously cultivate' sati. At all. That *is* 'a false idea of a controlling self' right there. Scott. #119860 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... dhammasaro Good friend Rob E, et al Please let us end this most viral and distasteful thread, okay? FWIW, I do not remember receiving more than four or five private "nasty grams" over the ten (10) years; however, I do remember over thirty (30) or more messages deleted over the ten (10) years with no explanation. So be it... Again, let us end this most vile and distasteful thread, okay??? peace... yours in the D hamma-vinaya, Chuck ............ rest deleted ....................................... #119861 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:45 am Subject: "Space" in Abhidhamma Terms dhammasaro Good friends all, Let us move on to a Dhamma-vinaya subject; shall we??? Question: What is "space" in Abhidhamma terms? Warm thanks... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119862 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Chuck, --------- > RE: Since there have been several sub-threads that seem to be raising the tension and negativity level lately, I think we should all maybe take a step back and take a deep breath ---------- KH: I was appreciating your helpful response to Chucks' problem. But then there was this: ----------- > RE: [perhaps even with a bit of anapansati thrown in for samatha infusion] ----------- KH: Who amongst us is able to practise anapanasati? Isn't it the preserve of Buddhas and their chief disciples? And do we even know what anapanasati is? Is it for "samatha infusion?" :-) Perhaps we shouldn't talk irresponsibly about such things, not even in jest. ------------------ > RE: and try to get back to what we're really interested in about the Dhamma. I'm sure with all your experience you have plenty to contribute on substantive issues, so looking forward to your posts in those areas! ------------------ KH: Yes, Chuck, Robert makes a good point. Perhaps if you worried less about monks and ajhans - and the ways they are treated by others - you could turn your mind to the present reality. For example: is there right understanding now - at this moment? Ken H #119863 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:53 am Subject: Re: beyond the initial 17 cittas truth_aerator Hi Connie, Thank you for your post. >c:All cittas, except the cittas that develop satipa.t.thaana and the >sense-door process cittas, can have concepts as object. >========================================================== My understanding is that concepts are known by mind consciousness, not by five sense consciousness. If concepts do exist, then citta-vithi process made of 17 (number, a concept) cittas that lasts split second (time, a concept) can occur. Also concept of group has to exist for Sabbacittasadharana, and for suddhatthaka rupa kalapa to exist. With best wishes, Alex #119864 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:01 am Subject: Running of the list, moderator issues: off-list only dsgmods Dear Friends, Please comment off-list only if you wish to comment on the running of the list or have moderator gripes. Please do not bring up any such matters on-list, or respond further to posts that do. All the Guidelines for DSG can be found in the "files" section. Jon & Sarah p.s. replies to this message off-list only #119865 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:10 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... dhammasaro Good friend Ken H, et al On what you wrote, in part: KH: Yes, Chuck, Robert makes a good point. Perhaps if you worried less about monks and ajhans - and the ways they are treated by others - you could turn your mind to the present reality. For example: is there right understanding now - at this moment? Ken H ................................................................................\ .............. Good friend ken H, This ole Texican bag of bones does not worry... "worry" is your word; is it not? FWIW, all sentinent beings are sentient beings regardless how clothe, do you not agree? What is your pertinent Dhamma-vinaya probe??? Please explain your apparent superior Dhamma-vinaya knowledge to us mere plebes... With the utmost subservience, yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............ rest deleted ........................ #119866 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > Good friend Rob E, > > Sincere warm thanks for your reply. > > No, I do not expect any sympathy... > > Did you perceive any problem in the many hour missing very public reply message to you? You did not state... [bummer] > > FWIW, evidently you have not read my posts over the some ten (10) years... the vast majority are based on the Dhamma-vinaya... I abhor opinions!!! > > If, they are not present; someone deleted them!!! Not, I!!! > > Unfortunately, I am a mere human... I am not an elitist!!! Just a pedestrian, vulgar ole Texican... [bummers] Your response above was to a private message - no problem; just explaining why there is a jump in continuity from the last public message to this one. In my last message to you, which you didn't quote, I wasn't saying I didn't have sympathy - just that my point of view might seem that I was not sympathetic enough. Is there a problem when posts are delayed? Yes, it is a problem, but I don't take it as a gigantic problem; also I pointed out a direction for a possible solution, so I'm trying to help in my own way. I never said you did not post about Dhamma; in fact I said that I hoped you could continue to post about Dhamma issues in another message to you, if you recall, and that this is a contribution to the discussions on the list. But it is still true that you seem to be very focused on the moderators being against you and stopping your posts and have mentioned this a lot recently. I was just suggesting that maybe there was a way to approach that which would get better results. Anyway, it's just my view, so it doesn't mean much. Sorry if it is annoying. Best, Rob E. #119867 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:54 am Subject: Re: beyond the initial 17 cittas nichiconn Thanks, Alex. > > >c:All cittas, except the cittas that develop satipa.t.thaana and the >sense-door process cittas, can have concepts as object. > >========================================================== > > A: My understanding is that concepts are known by mind consciousness, not by five sense consciousness. c: We share that understanding. Rephrasing what I had quoted above: 1)the cittas that develop satipa.t.thaana and 2) sense-door process cittas must have paramattha dhammas as objects; all other cittas can have either concepts or paramattha dhammas as their objects. A: If concepts do exist, then citta-vithi process made of 17 (number, a concept) cittas that lasts split second (time, a concept) can occur. Also concept of group has to exist for Sabbacittasadharana, and for suddhatthaka rupa kalapa to exist. > c: We might like to talk some more sometime about different kinds of concepts. Meanwhile, here is something else I kind of liked the other day, from a speech by 'Chief' K Sri Dhammanando: << the Buddha told Ananda, “pariyaya-desito ayam Ananda maya dhammo”. What this means is that the Dhamma has been presented in many different ways and in many different forms (aneka-pariyayena). What is true and real needs not be repeated in the same way as a holy hymn or as a sacred mantra. It can be re-stated in many different ways. For the Dhamma is not something esoteric and mystical. As the Buddha says, “the more one elaborates it, the more it shines” (vivato virocati). In connection with this what we need to remember is that the Dhamma is not actuality as such, but a description of actuality. The Dhamma is a conceptual model or framework which describes the nature of actuality. We find this idea formally expressed in a Pali commentary thus: “Pannattim anatikkamma paramattho pakasito”. Here the term pannatti means both word and meaning as concepts. Therefore, what this statement amounts to is that the nature of actuality has been presented as a conceptual model through the symbolic medium of language. >> connie #119868 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 11:00 am Subject: Verbal Abuse by DSG Members dhammasaro Good friends all, It seems in recent months, most of the regular posters of DSG are verbal abusers... Question One: Do you agree? FYI: The Vinaya-mukha redefines the terms as follows: "Some offenses are faults as far as the world is concerned — wrong and damaging even if committed by ordinary people who are not bhikkhus — examples being robbery and murder, as well as such lesser faults as assault and verbal abuse. Offenses of this sort are termed loka-vajja. There are also offenses that are faults only as far as the Buddha's ordinances are concerned — neither wrong nor damaging if committed by ordinary people; wrong only if committed by bhikkhus, on the grounds that they run counter to the Buddha's ordinances. Offenses of this sort are termed paṇṇati-vajja." Question Two: Why not write as if a bhikkhu and as the Historic Buddha taught, heh??? You may include me as delinquent , as well... [bummers] peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/bmc1.ch01.html #119869 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:26 pm Subject: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? nichiconn Thank you, Nina. Short grammar lessons are really nice. connie correct. Notice the -ena ending, instrumental case. > > vijjamaanena avijjamaana - non-existent based on existent > > avijjamaanena vijjamaana - existent based on non-existent #119870 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 2:42 pm Subject: Re: Verbal Abuse by DSG Members dhammasaro Good friends all, While we are rather in a contemplative quietness... May I softly suggest we peruse the following: The Four Sublime States: Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006.html peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119871 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:39 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is number conceptual or ultimate reality? dhammasaro Good friend Connie, Truly, I do not understand your recent Dhamma exchanges. [bummer] As you have the time; would you be so kind to explain the subtle nuances of these recent exchanges? Sincere thanks, yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............... rest deleted ................. #119872 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:47 pm Subject: Re: "Space" in Abhidhamma Terms nichiconn Hi, Chuck, > > Question: What is "space" in Abhidhamma terms? > pretty much what you'd expect, I guess. from A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas: <> connie ps - sorry if this is a repeat. #119873 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:49 pm Subject: biijaniyaama dhammasaro Good friends all, All abhidhamma experts, please expound this term. Warm thanks. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119874 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is number conceptual or ultimate reality? nichiconn hi, Chuck, > > Truly, I do not understand your recent Dhamma exchanges. [bummer] > > As you have the time; would you be so kind to explain the subtle nuances of these recent exchanges? > yikes! I've been kinda running off at the mouth here lately so if you could be more specific & give me a place to start, I'll try. connie #119875 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:53 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Space" in Abhidhamma Terms dhammasaro Good friend Connie, Nope, not a repeat for me... I have the reference; but, I missed your explanation in the text... [bummer] sincere warm thanks. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............ rest deleted ....................... #119876 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:57 pm Subject: utuniyaama dhammasaro Good friends all, All abhidhamma experts, please expound this term. Warm thanks. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119877 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:22 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is number conceptual or ultimate reality? dhammasaro [Bummers] Good friend Connie, I can not find the the message I queried!!! [bummers] Out here in Yankee Land, it was your last post before responding to me.... I will keep lurkin' [grins] peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted ................ #119878 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:58 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Rob! > > Are you saying you don't have the DPR plug-in installed on Firefox?!? > http://pali.sirimangalo.org/ > > lol - Chris thinks thinking that you have time Is trouble. Thnx, Chris. Who has time? Not me! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #119879 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Rob E, et al > > Can we go back to the original purpose of this thread, yes? > > der Fuehrer here is der Fuehrer; no argument... Hostile and inappropriate, and proof that your posts are not being blocked. I would have blocked this one. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #119880 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Rob E, et al > > Please let us end this most viral and distasteful thread, okay? > > FWIW, I do not remember receiving more than four or five private "nasty grams" over the ten (10) years; however, I do remember over thirty (30) or more messages deleted over the ten (10) years with no explanation. > > So be it... > > Again, let us end this most vile and distasteful thread, okay??? You can end it any time. Just stop writing. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #119881 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:54 pm Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., (Nina), > > R: "It seems that K. Sujin, like Buddha, used such pep talks to inspire the cittas that would arise with sati. Is that a fair reading of such admonitions?" > > Scott: No. The idea of 'using' a pep talk 'to inspire' is wrong. This is what Nina and I are agreeing on. 'Should' doesn't mean 'should' when referring to dhammas that are not controllable by 'shoulds.' There's no "should" in the inspiring of cittas. They will arise as they will. A pep talk is a pep talk none the less. > R: "This suggests that, without a false idea of a controlling self, one can become acclimated and accustomed to sati, and consciously cultivate it. The women in the story above were expected to practice one of the applications of mindfulness and to become skilled at it. As K. Sujin said, quoted above: 'It can become one's nature.'" > > Scott: No. You're just trying to force these statements into your own paradigm. Sati arises or sati doesn't arise. This is not at all like the 'acclimation' of a self to sati or a self becoming 'accustomed' to sati. One cannot 'consciously cultivate' sati. At all. That *is* 'a false idea of a controlling self' right there. Apparently you don't like the statements of the women in the story wo would admonish anyone who was not practicing one of the applications of mindfulness, and who were mentioned in a complimentary manner in the discussion. Nor do you apparently like the statement of K. Sujin -- not me -- that mindfulness should be constant. The "should" may be taken with a grain of salt, but the basic statement is what it is. You haven't said anything about this citation - the women who were praised for cultivating mindfulness and chided if they were not practicing. They were praised by the Buddha. What do you think about it? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #119882 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E and Chuck, > > --------- > > RE: Since there have been > several sub-threads that seem to be raising the tension and negativity level lately, I think we should all maybe take a step back and take a deep breath > ---------- > > KH: I was appreciating your helpful response to Chucks' problem. But then there was this: > > ----------- > > RE: [perhaps even with a bit of anapansati thrown in for samatha infusion] > ----------- > > KH: Who amongst us is able to practise anapanasati? Isn't it the preserve of Buddhas and their chief disciples? > > And do we even know what anapanasati is? Is it for "samatha infusion?" :-) > > Perhaps we shouldn't talk irresponsibly about such things, not even in jest. Are you kidding? I can't say that in jest now? An obvious joke and a winking parody of my own view. Sorry if you have gotten so stiff that no one can make a humorous comment that makes light of our views - particularly my own. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #119883 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:36 pm Subject: Cittaniyaama dhammasaro Good friends all, All abhidhamma experts, please expound this term. Warm thanks. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119884 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:39 pm Subject: Dhammaniyaama dhammasaro Good friends all, All abhidhamma experts, please expound this term. Warm thanks. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119885 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammaniyaama sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, You may find it helpful to look under "niyamas" in "Useful Posts" to be found in the files section of DSG. From the last message there by James Stewart: >1. /Kamma Niyama/, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. 2. /Utu Niyama/, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. Earthquakes, storms, and other physical events. 3. /Bija Niyama/, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. 4. /Citta Niyama/, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness /(Citta vithi),/ power of mind etc. 5. /Dhamma Niyama/, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation, etc. **** Metta Sarah ====== #119886 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 6:12 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhammaniyaama dhammasaro Warm thanks... I shall... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@... <....> You may find it helpful to look under "niyamas" in "Useful Posts" to be found in the files section of DSG. From the last message there by James Stewart: <...> #119887 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 7:04 pm Subject: Ivan's Letters 3: The classic one.... philofillet Hello all Here is the rather legendary letter by Ivan ( writing as Matt Roke.) It can be pulled out anytime there is some non-dhamma-of-this-moment related issue causing a kerfuffle (i.e just about every day.) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matt roke" wrote: > > Hi All, > > ================= > ================= > > Robert> "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the > household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the > dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as > women have obtined the going forth from the household to become > homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only > five hundred years > > Howard> Yes. Harder to set aside, and most disheartening. I read the sutta > material and the attempts on poster's parts to "explain," and the matter > remains > most unsettling. And yet I believe there *must* be an explanation other than > the > Buddha actually holding sexist views, very disparaging and upsetting views. > > ================= > > Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is > arising > and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those > views or > not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will > last 500 > or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the > sense > door right now. > > In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no > women, no > men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. > > Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so > beautiful > and its followers so unique. > > On a worldly note: women have been men before and will be them again and men > have been women before and will come back as them again. So we have all > probably lived through this debate countless times before. > > MattR > > _________________________________________________________________ > SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here: > http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail > #119888 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 7:34 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi RobK, > RK: perhaps it is a matter of taste. pt: What is? Interpretation that an exchange constitutes ridicule, or whether encouraging ridicule is un/acceptable? Best wishes pt #119889 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 8:41 pm Subject: Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... kenhowardau Hi Robert E, -------- > RE: Are you kidding? I can't say that in jest now? An obvious joke and a winking parody of my own view. Sorry if you have gotten so stiff that no one can make a humorous comment that makes light of our views - particularly my own. -------- KH: Point taken! Maybe I was taking out my frustration on you. Last weekend some friends gave me a present they had brought back from holidays. It was a set of Turkish worry beads. (!) Apologising for the strangeness of the present they explained their thinking. Worry beads, they said, were a form of *meditation* and since I was a *Buddhist* and Buddhists *meditate* then it seemed appropriate. The disappointment that showed on my face had nothing to do with the present. I was disappointed because *non-meditation* was the only thing I had ever asked those friends to understand about my interest in Dhamma study. (That and the fact that the Dalli Lama was not my spiritual leader!!!!!!) But it seems it was too much to ask. In the public eye, Buddhists are people who meditate. End of story! :-) Ken H #119890 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:19 pm Subject: Cont: Verbal Abuse by DSG Members dhammasaro Good friends all. I try to have equanimity when faced with adversity... by R.... See: Equanimity is a perfect, unshakable balance of mind, rooted in insight. But in its perfection and unshakable nature equanimity is not dull, heartless and frigid. Its perfection is not due to an emotional "emptiness," but to a "fullness" of understanding, to its being complete in itself. Its unshakable nature is not the immovability of a dead, cold stone, but the manifestation of the highest strength. In what way, now, is equanimity perfect and unshakable? Whatever causes stagnation is here destroyed, what dams up is removed, what obstructs is destroyed. Vanished are the whirls of emotion and the meanderings of intellect. Unhindered goes the calm and majestic stream of consciousness, pure and radiant. Watchful mindfulness (sati) has harmonized the warmth of faith (saddha) with the penetrative keenness of wisdom (paa); it has balanced strength of will (viriya) with calmness of mind (samadhi); and these five inner faculties (indriya) have grown into inner forces (bala) that cannot be lost again. They cannot be lost because they do not lose themselves any more in the labyrinths of the world (samsara), in the endless diffuseness of life (papaca). These inner forces emanate from the mind and act upon the world, but being guarded by mindfulness, they nowhere bind themselves, and they return unchanged. Love, compassion and sympathetic joy continue to emanate from the mind and act upon the world, but being guarded by equanimity, they cling nowhere, and return unweakened and unsullied. peace to all, friends and fiends... Chuck ............ rest deleted ............................ #119891 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:18 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? rjkjp1 Well i dont read all posts, but it struck me that a post to phil backhanding scott is a bit ironic when you complain about posting styles. Robert Telling a fool to shut up is rude, but letting him speAk is cruel (my auntie) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > > RK: perhaps it is a matter of taste. > > pt: What is? Interpretation that an exchange constitutes ridicule, or whether encouraging ridicule is un/acceptable? > > Best wishes > pt > #119892 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:23 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "There's no 'should' in the inspiring of cittas. They will arise as they will. A pep talk is a pep talk none the less." Scott: A pep talk is in the same league as a vow: I can give a pep talk to the boys' indoor soccer team and they can vow to win; and then the game starts... R: "Apparently you don't like the statements of the women in the story who would admonish anyone who was not practicing one of the applications of mindfulness, and who were mentioned in a complimentary manner in the discussion. Nor do you apparently like the statement of K. Sujin -- not me -- that mindfulness should be constant. The 'should' may be taken with a grain of salt, but the basic statement is what it is..." Scott: I don't mind either the story nor Kh. Sujin's statement. I don't misunderstand them. You read where Nina and I clarified 'constant.' It is possible for sati to develop to such a degree that it is 'constant' - in the sense discussed. If I 'don't like' anything then, it is that the idea of 'pep talk' has been subourned by you into the view where there is 'practice' that can be done by someone and that the view is so hungry to prove itself that it gloms on to anything that seems consistent with it and goes, 'See!' Next you'll be saying Kh. Sujin believes in 'practice' *because* she gives 'pep talks' - Nina's unfortunate term. Scott. #119893 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:36 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi RobK, > RK: Well i dont read all posts, but it struck me that a post to phil backhanding scott is a bit ironic when you complain about posting styles. I sent off a reply to this earlier - looks like it got lost, so I got a chance to reconsider your post and realise that if "backhanding" is akin to attacking/ridiculing, then you probably feel I was ridiculing Scott. My apologies to Scott and you in that case. The purpose of the original post was to remind Phil about his own advice to me onlist - it had to do with loosing patience and it used Scott as prime example of someone with little patience onlist. If that didn't come across, which I guess it wouldn't if you are not reading all the posts, then I apologise again to you and Scott. Either way (and this is the bit that I tried to post earlier), good to read all posts - the overall impression is that the underlying issue on the list atm is about encouraging/ lack of/ patience - it comes up in pretty much all recent threads/responses, notably, Phil, RobE, Scott, Chuck, Alex, yourself, myself. So, that's the main issue I think, posting styles much less. Best wishes pt #119894 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:46 am Subject: Re: "Space" in Abhidhamma Terms chewsadhu Hi Dhamma friends, This space exists only when the kalapas exist. When the kalapas cease, this space also cease. It is one of the 28 ruupa. So, it is conditioned dhamma. It is different from the concept space that we understand in conventional sense. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi, Chuck, > > > > Question: What is "space" in Abhidhamma terms? > > > > pretty much what you'd expect, I guess. > from A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas: > > < What we call matter consists of kalaapas, units of ruupas arising and falling away. The ruupas within a kalaapa hold tightly together and cannot be divided. Matter, be it large or small, can only be broken up because the ruupa space is in between the different kalaapas, allowing them to be distinct from each other. Without space, or pariccheda ruupa, all ruupas would be tightly connected and could not be separated. Because of pariccheda ruupa, which surrounds each kalaapa, even large matter can be broken up into infinitely tiny particles; it can be broken up only at those points where there is space. > Pariccheda ruupa is another kind of asabhaava ruupa, which does not have its own distinct nature and does not arise separately; it arises simultaneously with the different kalaapas, and in between them. >> > > connie > > ps - sorry if this is a repeat. > #119895 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:54 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, (Rob K.,) pt: "...it used Scott as prime example of someone with little patience onlist..." Scott: Umm. I mean, I don't really care (much) but, huh?! And I don't need an apology but then, with this, is it one? Maybe we should have a good chat about this. Scott. #119896 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:57 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Scott, > pt: "...it used Scott as prime example of someone with little patience onlist..." > > Scott: Umm. I mean, I don't really care (much) but, huh?! And I don't need an apology but then, with this, is it one? Maybe we should have a good chat about this. pt: If that'll help, let's have the chat. Best wishes pt #119897 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:10 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...it used Scott as prime example of someone with little patience onlist...If that'll help, let's have the chat." Scott: Help what? Do you think I need help? What makes you think I'm asking for 'help?' So, you want to help me with 'patience?' And you're somehow qualified to do so? As far as I see it, patience comes and goes for you as it does for me. Let's discuss patience or diplomacy or whatever, but spare me the colonialism. I'm not some pagan tribesman standing on the shore of the new land you've arrived to claim in the name of your king or whatever... Scott. #119898 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:14 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Scott, > Scott: As far as I see it, patience comes and goes for you as it does for me. pt: Agreed. The rest of the message just reads as more thinking about 'me'. Do you want to discuss it too? Best wishes pt #119899 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:19 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "Agreed. The rest of the message just reads as more thinking about 'me'. Do you want to discuss it too?" Scott: Yes. You are exempting yourself from 'thinking about me?' Scott. #119900 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:26 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Scott, > > pt: "Agreed. The rest of the message just reads as more thinking about 'me'. Do you want to discuss it too?" > > Scott: Yes. You are exempting yourself from 'thinking about me?' pt: No, I think about you, about me, more about me, though I doubt there's any kusala there. How about you? Best wishes pt #119901 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:49 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Scott, Been waiting for the reply, but now I'm sorry I have to interrupt the chat, have to go to sleep, work in 5 hours, will respond tomorrow after work if there's anything else. Maybe next time we can use skype, could be much easier/quicker. Best wishes pt #119902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Rob E (and Scott), I thank you both for the discussion. First of all, Email is a difficult way of communication and I notice that different people read the same words in a different way, like peptalk, should, etc. Also I notice that when quoting Kh Sujin we have to be careful of the context, because her words are not the same depending on the situation or people addressed to. Op 4-nov-2011, om 23:14 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > R: It seems that K. Sujin, like Buddha, used such pep talks to > inspire the cittas that would arise with sati. Is that a fair > reading of such admonitions? > ------ N: It was from a feeling of compassion that she would exhort people not to be forgetful. Nobody can expect that such words will help all people, it all depends on conditions. For some people it will be helpful, they hear the right words at the right time, whereas for others, it does not help. Thus, no expectations that people will have more sati. ------- > ..... But on being questioned if she > > said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of > > Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! ... > -------- N: There were questions before, people saying that it seemed that people would select one of the four Applications, but that is not the case. It depends on conditions. One person may be inclined to be aware of subjects of the first application but this does not mean that only ruupa is known, not naama. Both ruupa and naama have to be understood. How could one understand what ruupa is, without understanding naama? --------- > R: > > Kh Sujin often speaks about someone who usually develops mindfulness > > (Thai: pen phu mi pokketi cerun sati). Thai pokketi is in Pali: > > pakati, natural. It can become one's nature. Again, not trying with > > an idea of self. > > This suggests that, without a false idea of a controlling self, one > can become acclimated and accustomed to sati, and consciously > cultivate it. > -------- N: Sati can be accumulated so that it arises again, but completely so because of its own conditions. There is no person who 'consciously' cultivates it. When sati arises it arises, nobody there to manipulate it, as you will agree. ------- > R: The women in the story above were expected to practice one of > the applications of mindfulness and to become skilled at it. > ------- N: see above for: no selection. ------ > R: As K. Sujin said, quoted above: "It can become one's nature." > ------ N: Yes, when it has been accumulated. At another occasion Kh Sujin said to Lodewijk: the arising of sati is like an atom in a day. Showing that it is so slight, that we cannot expect it to arise often. ------ Nina. > #119903 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 4:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving philofillet Hi Nina and all A Sujin's description to Lodewijk of sati as an atom in a day reminded me of Ven Dhammadaro's "one moment of sati in a lifetime, wealthy man." As you know, I came to dislike that saying, feeling it went too far, but now I see it is so much closer to the truth of Dhamma than the hungry urgings of people who believe in and want want want sati all the time. As A Sujin said, "'I' cannot have sati." That much should be obvious, but it isn't. Phil #119904 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 4:59 am Subject: "Arising" of cittas truth_aerator Dear all, I hope that by the idea of "arising" of a citta we are speaking conventionally, where arising is not really a moment or thing itself. If "arising" is thought of as being as a thing or distinct event, then the reasonable question is "does arising have arising, presence, fall"? If it doesn't have arising..., then how does it arise? Does it exist forever? And then the questions could be about arising or arising, arising of arising of arising and so forth. So how to avoid this problem of reification? With best wishes, Alex #119905 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 4:59 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "No, I think about you, about me, more about me, though I doubt there's any kusala there. How about you?...I'm sorry I have to interrupt the chat, have to go to sleep..." Scott: Hey, sleepy-head. 'How about you?' Of course. I thought this had already been established. Now, pt, given that neither one of us differ on the vectors of 'patience,' 'thinking about me,' 'thinking about you,' and 'kusala,' - and that should read 'actually know anything about these aspects of the other' - assumptions about who or who is not 'a prime example' of anything based on the flimsy evidence of the common, ordinary, every-day, written interactions on a discussion list are rather moot, aren't they? You ask, 'How about you?' and so I assume that you are in agreement with the above, and yet, making meta-communicative observations about style and being an advocate of a certain style is merely based on having a view about one style versus another, personifying the view assumed to be inherent in a given style, and then thinking about style in terms of people and kusala versus akusala - you know, good guys versus bad guys. If I'm a 'prime example' of the Impatient Man, does that make you the 'prime example' of the Patient Man' on the basis of making the observation? Of course not. Why? Because neither of us are a prime example of anything. We can agree that certain dhammaa constellate and can lead to certain 'actions' however, it is a major stretch to impute much to discussion style on an internet list. To impute to a certain style anything about 'kusala' or 'akusala' is, in my opinion, a waste of time. That I don't care about the verbiage, or look for the view, or directly offer my opinions - which at any given time I agree with - is only one way to discuss. Does someone get upset? Not my problem. Do I poke once in awhile? So what? I only care about your chosen style when you want to make me adopt it, thinking it's somehow better. The problem with 'diplomacy' or 'diplomats' - say, like yourself in this connection (and this is *not* in reference to anyone who may or may not have any connection to with 'real diplomacy' in the so-called 'real world') - is that there are a larger entity's interests in mind and the diplomacy is always part of that entity's interactions with other entity's. I happen to agree with pretty well all Dhamma interpretations found on the list - and not on purpose - but I don't happen to be a member of the list's 'diplomatic corps' when it comes to relations with members of other 'diplomatic corps' from 'other entities' - read views, whatever. I like to consider the view. Playing around with the various personalities on the list is harmless - except for the problem that some, read yourself, think it's more than that when it isn't. I have no need to 'set an example' stylistically to somehow maintain the group's desired social persona so it's views will somehow be moved forward in the world. Sarah and I joke about 'projection' from time to time. This notion is a non-dhamma concept coming out of the depth psychology theoretical literature, and, while having no correspondence to the Dhamma at all, basically posits that aspects of one's self found to be unpleasant in some way, are seen in the outside world instead - via some sort of *unconscious* (read outside of 'conscious control') process or other. Again, I'm in no way suggesting that this is the Dhamma. In fact, I'd equate thoughts about 'projection' with the dream that dreamt itself last night while I slept - only thoughts. It's thinking about how you or I imagine anything about anyone. I suppose the Dhamma correspondence might be ignorance - as in, we don't know; as in, it's all part of the same dream of ignorance. Coming back to internet discussion lists and Dhamma, views are apparent, there is right and wrong, people disagree and agree, there are different styles and more. All of this is simply a given. My thesis to you is, since this is all a given: Get on with discussion in a way you see fit and leave the rest alone. Have you ever met one of those befuddled fake-buddhists out there who act all buddhisty if they can? I've met a few. They do this thing I like to call 'mindfulness face.' It's the face you get when you are trying to be all like 'mindful' all the time. Ever seen this? So earnest- and peaceful-looking? Well, it's dumb. The equivalent on the list is to act all buddhisty in sytle when the substance is just not reliably knowable. No 'mindfulness face' and no 'buddhisty style' on the list. Over to you. Scott. #119906 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:04 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas scottduncan2 Alex, A: "I hope that by the idea of 'arising' of a citta we are speaking conventionally..." Scott: Please cite the source of your latest reading, as I asked previously, because I know you're just recycling someone else and not acknowledging your source. This is simply good etiquette and ethical discussion behaviour, allowing a reader to consider the source of your borrowed ideas. Karunadasa this time? Scott. #119907 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:19 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas truth_aerator Scott, Lets discuss the issue and not people. If the question is good, it doesn't matter where the question came from. With best wishes, Alex #119908 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:21 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas scottduncan2 Alex, A: "Lets discuss the issue and not people. If the question is good, it doesn't matter where the question came from." Scott: What is your source this time? 'People' is your red-herring. Scott. #119909 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:26 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas truth_aerator Scott, >A: "Lets discuss the issue and not people. If the question is good, it >doesn't matter where the question came from." > >Scott: What is your source this time? 'People' is your red-herring. >============================================================== Red-Herring is asking irrelevant questions such as the source of the question. I've asked a reasonable question. Alex #119910 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:28 am Subject: Re: Sanna and memory philofillet Hi Sarah I will study sanna some more before asking any further questions, thanks. I think some lot of my difficulty lies in atta ditthi, believing in existence of things (although I understand they can only be experienced as concepts, through the mind door) so it is possible for now that I won't be able to fully understand sanna. For now at least an appreciation of that helpful answer by A Sujin when asked about the characteristic of sanna, a characteristic which some (including me) feel difficult to understand: "Do you know me?" Phil #119911 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:32 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas scottduncan2 Alex, A: "Red-Herring is asking irrelevant questions such as the source of the question. I've asked a reasonable question." Scott: Again, as before, no you haven't asked a reasonable question. You mean, eventually, to offer another opinion that you don't believe in the Abhidhamma thing - whatever it happens to be, 'arising' this time. What's new? As before, skip the preliminary, do the 'scholarly' thing and quote your source, and then the merits of the question can be established and discussed. The pattern is so clearly established that your desire to 'discuss' can easily be called into question. Make your point, cite your source, and then see if anyone is interested. Scott. #119912 From: "upasaka@..." Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert & all - Just using your post to mention that I 'll have no use of my computer till tomorrow at least, and I have loads of unread posts. So, if I'm incommunicado for a while, please bear with me! :-) With metta, Howard Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Robert E To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 23:52:10 GMT+00:00 Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > Good friend Rob E, > > Sincere warm thanks for your reply. > > No, I do not expect any sympathy... > > Did you perceive any problem in the many hour missing very public reply message to you? You did not state... [bummer] > > FWIW, evidently you have not read my posts over the some ten (10) years... the vast majority are based on the Dhamma-vinaya... I abhor opinions!!! > > If, they are not present; someone deleted them!!! Not, I!!! > > Unfortunately, I am a mere human... I am not an elitist!!! Just a pedestrian, vulgar ole Texican... [bummers] Your response above was to a private message - no problem; just explaining why there is a jump in continuity from the last public message to this one. In my last message to you, which you didn't quote, I wasn't saying I didn't have sympathy - just that my point of view might seem that I was not sympathetic enough. Is there a problem when posts are delayed? Yes, it is a problem, but I don't take it as a gigantic problem; also I pointed out a direction for a possible solution, so I'm trying to help in my own way. I never said you did not post about Dhamma; in fact I said that I hoped you could continue to post about Dhamma issues in another message to you, if you recall, and that this is a contribution to the discussions on the list. But it is still true that you seem to be very focused on the moderators being against you and stopping your posts and have mentioned this a lot recently. I was just suggesting that maybe there was a way to approach that which would get better results. Anyway, it's just my view, so it doesn't mean much. Sorry if it is annoying. Best, Rob E. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #119913 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 7:47 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas nichiconn hi guys, Karunadasa did cover this point & afaic, if you'd read it, this point of "naive realism"/infinite regress wouldn't be an issue. To cut to the very most relevant portion of the half dozen paragraphs there: <> A little longer way of saying that is found in Path of Purification, ch. xxi, footnote 2, quoting Pm. 825: << These modes, [that is, the three characteristics,] are not included in the aggregates because they are states without individual essence (asabhaava-dhammaa); and they are not separate from the aggregates because they are unapprehendable without the aggregates. But they should be understood as appropriate conceptual differences (pa~n~natti-visesaa) that are reason for differentiation in the explaining of dangers in the five aggregates, and which are allowable by common usage in respect of the five aggregates. >> connie (aka Chris ????) > A: "I hope that by the idea of 'arising' of a citta we are speaking conventionally..." > > Scott: Please cite the source Karunadasa this time? #119914 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:25 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas scottduncan2 c/c, c: "Karunadasa did cover this point & afaic, if you'd read it, this point of 'naive realism'/infinite regress wouldn't be an issue..." Scott: Hence the tongue-in-cheek suggestion that Alex was now being secretly influenced by Karunadasa. I know, dumb, right? c: "...These modes, [that is, the three characteristics,] are not included in the aggregates because they are states without individual essence (asabhaava-dhammaa); and they are not separate from the aggregates because they are unapprehendable without the aggregates. But they should be understood as appropriate conceptual differences (pa~n~natti-visesaa) that are reason for differentiation in the explaining of dangers in the five aggregates, and which are allowable by common usage in respect of the five aggregates..." Scott: Clear as well. I'll wait to see what the next point will be... Scott. #119915 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 9:37 am Subject: Samsara is Dread! bhikkhu5 Friends: One can Escape the Suffering of Samsara! The Blessed Buddha once said: The flood of tears that all beings have shed, while weeping and wailing upon this loong way, hurrying and hastening through this endless round of rebirths, while forced together with the disliked, & separated from anything liked, is far greater than all the water of the four oceans! So long have you lamented the death of your father & mother, of sons, of daughters, brothers, & sisters. While you were thus wretched by all this misery, agony, & anguish you have surely shed more tears upon this immensely loong way, than there is water in the four oceans... The flood of blood that all beings have shed, having been beheaded, or stabbed, or injured during this long way, through billions of rebirths as punished killer, murderer, or soldier is far greater, than all the water in the 4 oceans! So long have you been caught as robber, thief, & adulterer, & beheaded as punishment, truly more blood has flowed along this vastly long way, than there is water in all the four oceans even when summed... But how is this possible? Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara; not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who, being blinded by ignorance and ensnared by craving, have been hurrying and hastening through many repeated rebirths... In this way have you & all other beings long been suffering, been tortured, experienced disasters and tragedies, and filled many graveyards full with bones! This truly, is long enough to be dissatisfied with all forms of existence, is long enough to turn away and free your self from all that suffering, that awaits in the future... <....> Video illustrating life among humans, in heaven and in hell: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Vids/Samsara.heaven.and.hell.mp4 All in this World, whatsoever, is Suffering: This is the 1st Noble Truth: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_1st_Noble_Truth_on_Suffering.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_4_Noble_Truths.htm Source: (edited excerpts) SN 15:1+3+13 From: The Word of the Buddha: Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahthera. http://www.pariyatti.com/book_404201.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #119916 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 10:27 am Subject: Re: "Arising" of cittas nichiconn Scott, Alex, re: the tongue-in-cheek suggestion that Alex was now being secretly influenced by Karunadasa. c/c (ha!): I thought you were being seductive. (haha!) Seriously, this 'reality, what a concept & concept, what a reality' stuff is pretty confusing/challenging to try to talk about. You know, one time you might say something like "its characteristic IS the ruupa" and the **next**: p.304 Expositor << Of the three Paths, the Path of one emerging by means of impermanence is the Signless; that of one emerging by means of ill is the Undesired; that of one emerging by means of soullessness is the Empty. Thus by the Suttanta expositions* it has been brought out and shown. But (to object:) what has insight leading to emergence for its object? The three characteristics. **What is called a characteristic is the same as a concept, and is not a state that can be said to be limited or sublime, etc.** And whoso discerns the three characteristics as impremanence, ill, soullessness, to him the five aggregates become like a corpse tied to his neck. Knowledge, having the complexes as its object, emerges from them. So a bhikkhu, desirous of buying a bowl, might see one brought by a bowl-merchant, and glad and delighted would think, 'I will take it.' On examining it he might see holes, whereupon he loses all attachment, not for the holes, but for the bowl. Similarly, noting the three characteristics [the student] has no further attachment for conditioned things. He transcends any such thing by means of knowledge, having such things as object. *P.ts. ii, Vimokkhakathaa, esp. p.64 >> connie #119917 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 10:29 am Subject: Nina's letters 1: Re: sanna and accumulations philofillet Hi all I found the following letter from Nina very helpful. I have struggled (a little) to understand the theory of both sanna and accumulations, and here Nina makes the point that while it is important to understand theory, the more important thing is to develop understanding in our daily lives. Like A Sujin's " do you know me?", Nina's close your eyes and open them. and Bach's music, knowing it is not Mozart, that is sanna. This is sanna now, always marking. Wehave to press on patiently to know the correct theory as well, but not forget that Abhidhamma is now. Anyways. a very good letter follows: Phil > Dear Mike, last week I took up Ven. Nyanaponika's Abhdiamma Studies and read > about sa~n~na. I thought of you and meant to write to you but I am so busy > finishing a wrok load before India. You are always interested in sa~n~naa, I > quote now. > > Ven. Nyanaponika explains about sa~n~naa , that it makes marks in order to > remember and recognizes. I quote: > > the object (sometimes only a single striking one) are selected. The mental > note made of that perception is closely associated with those selected > features, that is, we attach, as it were, a tag to the object, or make a > mark on it as woodcutters do on trees. So far, every perception is a making > of marks (nimitta-kara.na). In order to understand how remembering or > recognizing, too, is implied in every act of perception we should mention > that according to the deeply penetrative analysis of the Abhidhamma the > apparently simple act, for example, of seeing a rose, is in reality a very > complex process composed of different phases, each consisting of numerous > smaller combinations of conscious processes (citta-viithi)which again are > made up of several single moments of consciousness (citta-kkha.na) following > each other in a definite sequence of diverse functions. Among these phases > there is one that connects the present perception of a rose with a previous > one, and there is another that attaches to the present perception the name > rose, remembered from previous experience. Not only in relation to similar > experiences in a relatively distant past, but also in between those > infinitesimal brief single phases and successive processes the connecting > function of rudimentary memory must be assumed to operate, because each > phase and each lesser successive state has to remember the previous one- a > process called by the later Abhidhammikas grasping the past > (atiita-gghahana). Finally, the individual contributions of all those > different perceptual processes have to be remembered and co-cordinated in > order to form the final and complete perception of a rose. > > End quote. > A great deal more is explained, but I leave it at that. This is theory, > pariyatti, it is important that there also be understanding of the level of > patipatti, practice, namely, satipatthana. Then the understanding will be so > much clearer. We, and while writing I also have to remind myself, should > consider and investigate sa~n~naa now. It is translated by perception or > remembrance, but the word we use does not matter, we should not cling to > words and terms. We should know the reality. When we close our eyes and then > open them, we see, and immediately sa~n~naa performs its function, we > recognize colours, shape and form. We hear, and recognize. We listen to > Bachs music and remember that this is Bach, not Beethoven. But, this is > important, we have to realize that it is not self who recognizes. Not a self > recognizes Bach, only a kind of naama. Understanding of the level of > patipatti can very gradually develop so that we do not get stuck at the > level of theory. While typing letters, we remember immediately the different > letters and words, and the way of forming sentences, drawing conclusions. > Sa~n~naa, not me or you. When taking a step, left or right, going somewhere, > not self, sa~n~naa remembers. We should not try to make it into an object of > awareness, but understanding more does help. > > You are also interested in accumulations. We can use it in a very wide > sense, then we do not only think of the seven anusayas, latent tendencies > that are akusala. Also good inclinations are accumulated in each citta, and > actually all your experiences, but not all is remembered. It is not so that > accumulations pass on by way of anusaya, they pass on because each citta > conditions the next one by way of contiguity-condition, anantara paccaya. I > was also surprised when I heard about the endless amount of accumulations in > one citta, also from past lives. A.Sujin said, it is citta, mentality, it is > not like a room that is limited in what it can contain. Now here also, if we > get stuck in theory it is not so helpful. We should consider our own life. > We all have accumulated lobha, but why is there lobha for this particular > object, like Bachs music? Experiences of the past that have been > accumulated. Sa~n~naa plays its part, but it is not only sa~n~naa, it is > more complex than that. But it is best to understand our life right now. In > Amaras post on the foundation session, we read about the bhikkhu who was > not successful with the foulness meditation subject. The Buddha gave him a > golden lotus, and then he attained jhana and enlightenment. He had been a > goldsmith in a past life. Thus we see how experiences of particular objects > are all accumulated from citta to citta, from the past to the present life. > You will become a monk, that is also conditioned by past accumulations, it > is not a self. Tadao mentioned that it is a very lonely life, and that is > what I noticed from Alan Driver when he was a bhikkhu. it was most difficult > for him to find the right temple with pure Vinaya and satipatthana, because > these two should not be separated. Lonely life? But when there are only nama > and rupa we are alone with nama and rupa, no people around. Only when a monk > has becaome a sotapanna he will never leave the order anymore. That is > because of satipatthana which has been developed and become firmly > established, so that enlightenment could be attained. Finally, all my good > wishes to you for your new life as a bhikkhu, and I wish that you will be > near good friends in the Dhamma. Anumodana to you, and also anumodana to > Sukin who sponsors you, he is so kind. Best wishes, Nina. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #119918 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:35 pm Subject: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" nichiconn dear Friends, > S: If you look inthe Patisambhidamagga at the beginning, there are 201 dhammas to be "directly known" - these are all ultimate realities c: they are the following: 1-5. Materiality, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness. 6-11. Eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. 12-17. Visible objects, sounds, odours, flavours, tangible objects, ideas. 18-23. Eye-consciousness, ear-consc., nose-consc., tongue-consc., body-consc., mind consciousness. 24-29. Eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, mind contact. 30-35. Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-contact-born feeling, nose-contact-born feeling, tongue-contact-born feeling, body-contact-born feeling, mind-contact-born feeling. 36-41. Perception of visible objects, p. of sounds, p. of odours, p. of flavours, p. of tangible objects, perception of ideas. 42-47. Volition about visible objects, about sounds, odours, flavours, tangible objects, volition about ideas. 48-53. Craving for visible objects, for sounds, odours, flavours, tangible objects, craving for ideas. 54-59. Applied-thought about visible objects, sounds, odours, flavours, tangible objects, applied-thought about ideas. 60-65. Sustained-thought about visible objects, sounds, odours, flavours, tangible objects, sustained-thought about ideas. 66-71. The earth principle, water principle, fire principle, air principle, space principle, consciousness principle. 72-81. The earth kasina, water k., fire k., air k., blue k., yellow k., red k., white k., space k., consciousness kasina. 82-113. Head hairs, body hairs, teeth, nails, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, midriff, spleen, lights, bowels, entrails, gorge, dung, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, spittle, snot, oil-of-the-joints, urine, brain. 114-125. The eye base, visible-object base, ear base, sound base, nose base, odour base, tongue base, flavour base, tangible-object base, mind base, idea base. 126-143. The eye principle, visible-object principle, eye-consciousness principle, ear principle, sound principle, ear-consciousness principle, nose principle, odour principle, nose-consciousness principle, tongue principle, flavour principle, tongue-consciousness principle, body principle, tangible-object principle, body-consciousness principle, mind principle, idea principle, mind-consciousness principle. 144-165. The eye faculty, ear faculty, nose faculty, tongue faculty, body faculty, mind faculty, life faculty, femininity faculty, masculinity faculty, [bodily] pleasure faculty, [bodily] pain faculty, [mental] joy faculty, [mental] grief faculty, equanimity faculty, faith faculty, energy faculty, mindfulness faculty, concentration faculty, understanding faculty, I-shall-come-to-know-unknown faculty, final-knowledge faculty, final-knower faculty. 166-168. The sensual desire principle, material principle, immaterial principle. 169-177. Sensual desire being, material being, immaterial being, percipient being, non-percipient being, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient being, one-constituent being, four-constituent being, five-constituent being. 178-181. The first jhana, second jhana, third jhana, fourth jhana. 182-185. The heart(will)-deliverance of lovingkindness, heart-deliverance of compassion, heart-deliverance of sympatic gladness, heart-deliverance of equanimity. 186-189. The attainment of the base consisting of boundless space, attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, the base consisting of nothingness, base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception. 190-201. Ignorance, formations, consciousness, mentality-materiality, sixfold base, contact, feeling, craving, clinging, being, birth, ageing-and-death. that's it! connie #119919 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:05 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Space" in Abhidhamma Terms dhammasaro Good friend Chew, Sincere warm thanks for your additional comments. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............... rest deleted ............................................ #119920 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 4:35 pm Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "There's no 'should' in the inspiring of cittas. They will arise as they will. A pep talk is a pep talk none the less." > > Scott: A pep talk is in the same league as a vow: I can give a pep talk to the boys' indoor soccer team and they can vow to win; and then the game starts... > > R: "Apparently you don't like the statements of the women in the story who would admonish anyone who was not practicing one of the applications of mindfulness, and who were mentioned in a complimentary manner in the discussion. Nor do you apparently like the statement of K. Sujin -- not me -- that mindfulness should be constant. The 'should' may be taken with a grain of salt, but the basic statement is what it is..." > > Scott: I don't mind either the story nor Kh. Sujin's statement. I don't misunderstand them. You read where Nina and I clarified 'constant.' It is possible for sati to develop to such a degree that it is 'constant' - in the sense discussed. > > If I 'don't like' anything then, it is that the idea of 'pep talk' has been subourned by you into the view where there is 'practice' that can be done by someone and that the view is so hungry to prove itself that it gloms on to anything that seems consistent with it and goes, 'See!' Next you'll be saying Kh. Sujin believes in 'practice' *because* she gives 'pep talks' - Nina's unfortunate term. I think the story of the women is compelling. If you understand it in a different way than I do, explain the meaning that you take from the women saying that one who did not practice mindfulness was to be admonished, and one who did was praised, and that this was the culture of that place that the Buddha then so highly praised. They spoke specifically of asking each other which application of mindfulness they practiced, and it was a scandal if they said "oh I don't do that, I just wait for the dhammas to arise by themselves." [slight joke there, but not really.] You may accuse me of glomming, misinterpreting, whatever you like, but I notice that you never go to the trouble of giving a reasonable explanation for that which you dismiss and criticize. You are content to say "Blah blah blah it's not true!" and assume that you are right without a tiny shred of evidence to back you up. Please explain the story and how it doesn't mean what it obviously says in clear terms, and do it in a way that makes *any* kind of sense so I can see you as someone who understands what he himself thinks, rather than just a mere parrot who is committed to a memorized point of view without any reason. I am willing to stick my neck out and say what I think even though I know you're going to object without saying anything intelligent in your usual knee-jerk reaction, merely claiming that you're right because you're right like any unthinking dogmatist, so now it's your turn to give a reasonable alternative explanation for what was said about the women in the story. Teach me something. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #119921 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E (and Scott), > I thank you both for the discussion. > First of all, Email is a difficult way of communication and I notice > that different people read the same words in a different way, like > peptalk, should, etc. Also I notice that when quoting Kh Sujin we > have to be careful of the context, because her words are not the same > depending on the situation or people addressed to. > Op 4-nov-2011, om 23:14 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > R: It seems that K. Sujin, like Buddha, used such pep talks to > > inspire the cittas that would arise with sati. Is that a fair > > reading of such admonitions? > > > ------ > N: It was from a feeling of compassion that she would exhort people > not to be forgetful. Nobody can expect that such words will help all > people, it all depends on conditions. For some people it will be > helpful, they hear the right words at the right time, whereas for > others, it does not help. Thus, no expectations that people will have > more sati. I think that is a very fair way to understand such things, and is always true. Even in conventional terms people will only hear and understand that which they are ready to accept or listen to, so it is no surprise that such a talk on Dhamma issues will only be received by some according to conditions. "No expectations" as to the effect, as you say. Yet, as you say, out of compassion, when such a thing is said, it may have a positive effect on some people at the right time. > ------- > > ..... But on being questioned if she > > > said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of > > > Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! ... > > > -------- > N: There were questions before, people saying that it seemed that > people would select one of the four Applications, but that is not the > case. It depends on conditions. One person may be inclined to be > aware of subjects of the first application but this does not mean > that only ruupa is known, not naama. Both ruupa and naama have to be > understood. How could one understand what ruupa is, without > understanding naama? > --------- Still, it seems like the people in that town would recognize what was appropriate for them to understand, and would pursue it as a regular part of their lives. Doesn't that seem to be the case? I would agree with you, if you are saying that it would be a mistake to think that everyone should practice the same thing, or that a person could just grab an application of satipatthana out of a hat and determine to practice it regardless of conditions. > > R: > > > Kh Sujin often speaks about someone who usually develops mindfulness > > > (Thai: pen phu mi pokketi cerun sati). Thai pokketi is in Pali: > > > pakati, natural. It can become one's nature. Again, not trying with > > > an idea of self. > > > > This suggests that, without a false idea of a controlling self, one > > can become acclimated and accustomed to sati, and consciously > > cultivate it. > > > -------- > N: Sati can be accumulated so that it arises again, but completely so > because of its own conditions. There is no person who 'consciously' > cultivates it. When sati arises it arises, nobody there to manipulate > it, as you will agree. > ------- > > R: The women in the story above were expected to practice one of > > the applications of mindfulness and to become skilled at it. > > > ------- > N: see above for: no selection. > ------ > > R: As K. Sujin said, quoted above: "It can become one's nature." > > > ------ > N: Yes, when it has been accumulated. At another occasion Kh Sujin > said to Lodewijk: the arising of sati is like an atom in a day. > Showing that it is so slight, that we cannot expect it to arise often. > ------ I guess that is before it accumulates, and becomes 'one's nature,' but obviously that is not going to happen by trying hard, but by development over time. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #119922 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "upasaka@..." wrote: > > > Hi, Robert & all - > > Just using your post to mention that I 'll have no use of my computer > till tomorrow at least, and I have loads of unread posts. So, if I'm > incommunicado for a while, please bear with me! :-) Be well, Howard. Hope the rest of your weekend goes well, and that you're able to get back on-list soon! Things are crazy out here lately, and we need your participation! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #119923 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Hi Robert E, > > -------- > > RE: Are you kidding? I can't say that in jest now? An obvious joke and a winking parody of my own view. Sorry if you have gotten so stiff that no one can make a humorous comment that makes light of our views - particularly my own. > -------- > > KH: Point taken! Maybe I was taking out my frustration on you. Last weekend some friends gave me a present they had brought back from holidays. It was a set of Turkish worry beads. (!) Apologising for the strangeness of the present they explained their thinking. Worry beads, they said, were a form of *meditation* and since I was a *Buddhist* and Buddhists *meditate* then it seemed appropriate. > > The disappointment that showed on my face had nothing to do with the present. I was disappointed because *non-meditation* was the only thing I had ever asked those friends to understand about my interest in Dhamma study. (That and the fact that the Dalli Lama was not my spiritual leader!!!!!!) > > But it seems it was too much to ask. In the public eye, Buddhists are people who meditate. End of story! :-) I understand your frustration, after all the trouble you've gone to in order to disassociate yourself from that view, it is almost a "cosmic joke" or some perverse form of kamma that the meditation bug would come back at you that way. The best response is probably to laugh, since such a weird irony really is funny. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #119924 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:38 pm Subject: Buddhist Perceptions - A Practical Discussion - Part Two dhammasaro Good friends all, Agreed??? .................................................................. Dear Rob E (and Scott), I thank you both for the discussion. First of all, Email is a difficult way of communication and I notice that different people read the same words in a different way, like peptalk, should, etc. Also I notice that when quoting Kh Sujin we have to be careful of the context, because her words are not the same depending on the situation or people addressed to. Op 4-nov-2011, om 23:14 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: .................................... Good friends all, As good Buddhist we all have perceptions, in everyday mundane life; do we not? These perceptions are both positive and negative, no? Many times our biases colour our perceptions, yes? Let us use the follow exchange as a Buddhist lesson in biased perceptions, okay??? Perhaps, we can learn from the following to be more positive in perceiving and understanding another sentient being's written words... what say you all??? Please follow me... ............................... To Rob E, Why would you censor my three sentence message? What is hostile? I wrote: ................................................................................\ ................ > Good friend Rob E, et al > > Can we go back to the original purpose of this thread, yes? > > der Fuehrer here is der Fuehrer; no argument... ................................................................................\ ..................... and, you replied: ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ..... Rob E: "Hostile and inappropriate, and proof that your posts are not being blocked. I would have blocked this one. Best, Rob E." ......................... For all: For kindly discussions on your perceptions: 1. Please explain to all what you all perceive as hostile and inappropriate???? 2. Evidently my censors did not; but, Rob E did!!! Why? What is different? Please discuss... 3. And, then Rob E. ended with, "Best,"????? I do not think Rob E. wrote in a Buddhist sense, do you... just an auto manipulation by Rob E. with no true understanding of the word, yes???? 4. Please be so kind to explain to all; the moderators of whom Rob E. disagreed... 5. What word or words are hostile and/or obscene??? Why??? In a Buddhist sense??? Sincere warm thanks in advance for participating in a real-world practical Buddhist discussion. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ................ rest deleted ................. #119925 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: What is a "Cosmic Joke" on the Very Serious DSG Buddhist Forum? dhammasaro Good friends all, In all seriousness, what is a "cosmic joke" on a very serious Buddhist forum such as DSG? Observe: I understand your frustration, after all the trouble you've gone to in order to disassociate yourself from that view, it is almost a "cosmic joke" or some perverse form of kamma that the meditation bug would come back at you that way. The best response is probably to laugh, since such a weird irony really is funny. Best, Rob E. ................. I can not find the term, "Cosmic joke" in the Tipitaka!!! [bummers] Perhaps, it is in a commentary??? Please advise... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #119926 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 7:25 pm Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" philofillet Hi Connie Thanks for this. One wonders how one can directly know the internal organs, perhaps the submarine from Fantastic Voyage could be employed for satipatthana purposes. Seriously, I wonder why they are included. Metta, Phil #119927 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 7:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Cont: Verbal Abuse by DSG Members dhammasaro Good friends all, an excerpt: These inner forces emanate from the mind and act upon the world, but being guarded by mindfulness, they nowhere bind themselves, and they return unchanged. Love, compassion and sympathetic joy continue to emanate from the mind and act upon the world, but being guarded by equanimity, they cling nowhere, and return unweakened and unsullied. end excerpt.... What I try to emulate... Discussion? peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck .................................................... Good friends all, A few nasty private e-mails still arrive on the very common and very frequently used German words I recently wrote... what common ignorance... so be it... helps me practice the most difficult of the Brahma-viharas - equanimity... peace my negative thinking friends... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Post script: Do you destroy the very many ancient and current Buddhist items which have the swastika on them???? R... Heh??? ......................................... rest deleted ................................................................................\ ........................................................ #119928 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 7:26 pm Subject: Re: What is a "Cosmic Joke" on the Very Serious DSG Buddhist Forum? epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > > Good friends all, > > In all seriousness, what is a "cosmic joke" on a very serious Buddhist forum such as DSG? > > Observe: > > I understand your frustration, after all the trouble you've gone to in > order to disassociate yourself from that view, it is almost a "cosmic > joke" or some perverse form of kamma that the meditation bug would come > back at you that way. The best response is probably > to laugh, since such a weird irony really is funny. > > > > > > Best, > > > Rob E. > ................. > > I can not find the term, "Cosmic joke" in the Tipitaka!!! [bummers] > > Perhaps, it is in a commentary??? > > Please advise... That's why it was in quotes - a whimsical comment. If you do find a reference in commentary, please let me know, and I'll remove the quotes marks. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #119929 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 7:57 pm Subject: There should be sati all the time. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin: One may wonder whether there should be sati before going to sleep or when one wakes up. Do not forget that there should be sati all the time. The idea of self is still strong, it seems one can cause sati to arise. Pa~n~naa can very gradually realize this and eliminate this idea. Pa~n~naa has the function of detachment but sati is not yet sufficient. We should remember that there should be sati all the time. There should be sati during whatever posture one takes, when eating, speaking, thinking, during all activities. Sati arises and is aware of the characteristic that appears, even though pa~n~na is not yet clear understanding.This is not yet possible. Awareness of the characteristics that appear is the way for pa~n~naa to develop at this moment of seeing, hearing, etc. The different characteristics of the reality that experiences something and the reality that does not experience anything should be distinguished. If we study or read texts hoping that sati will arise, it is wrong. We read texts in order to understand realities, and sati may arise while reading, or it may not arise, or it may arise later on. If we do not try to manipulate sati and it arises, it is sammaa- sati. We do not have to wonder whether there should be sati and when there should be sati, there should be sati all the time. However, we should beware not to fix on it, or try to have it or to wish for it while discussing Dhamma, reading texts or by being alone. Then there will be little result of all such efforts. Defilements are subtle, difficult to eradicate and pa~n~naa must be subtle, otherwise there will be wrong practice. Someone who wants to practise the Dhamma is wondering why sati does not arise and why he cannot practise the Dhamma immediately. By being aware of the characteristics of realities that appear the idea of wanting to practise can be eliminated. One can become someone who develops satipa.t.thaana naturally. One can be aware immediately of seeing, sound, thinking or feeling. Otherwise there is no way to eliminate the idea of wanting to practise the Dhamma. ******** Nina. #119930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: view 'I have no self' is wrong view nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 4-nov-2011, om 18:01 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > My idea: to suggest (ladies first) fitting practical examples (or > similes , metaphors etc. ) for the 52 cetasikas, one by one , so > that we know/remember what is meant by any mental state. > Possibly Nina or others have done something like that already > ( which could be discussed ).. ------ N: Excellent idea. Good to discuss, it is about reality right now, not theory. Would you start? Nina. #119931 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:12 pm Subject: Re: There should be sati all the time. philofillet Hi Nina I guess you have been discussing this "should" with others, but "there can be sati" would be better, I think. "There should be sati" will mislead people into wrong ways, don't you think? My apologies for not having followed the discussion on the etymology of "should" but I like it in your books when I come across things like "sati may arise whatever one is doing." That is closer to the truth than "there should be sati", surely. Phil #119932 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-nov-2011, om 22:13 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > The only way it seems to me to keep "many trillions of cittas occur > per second" idea is to allow concepts to actually exist as mind > objects that are perceived by the mind but not by 5 sense > consciousness. Concepts, IMHO, are mental objects. ------- N: Yes, correct. Concepts can be useful, we cannot live without them. It is good to know when they clarify realities and when not. As to numbers with regard to the duration of cittas, I think that a mathematical way of approach, such as the trillions, does not help. Understanding more the present moment as far as we are able to helps. When we understand more what seeing is, just the experience of what appears through the eyes, and nothing more than that, it gives us some idea that the attachment or aversion on account of what is seen 'lasts longer'. Certainly the thinking about it that follows afterwards; we make long stories about what is experienced. attachment and aversion do not last of course, but there are several cittas with attachment or aversion succeeding one another. But this is still of the level of thinking, and not as clear as when there is direct awareness. ------ Nina. #119933 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Phil, Op 5-nov-2011, om 18:42 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > A Sujin's description to Lodewijk of sati as an atom in a day > reminded me of Ven Dhammadaro's "one moment of sati in a lifetime, > wealthy man." ------ N: Exactly, I was thinking of it. I did not want to repeat it again, as I used it in my exchange with Lukas who likes it so much. ------- Nina. #119934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Arising" of cittas nilovg Dear Alex, Op 5-nov-2011, om 18:59 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I hope that by the idea of "arising" of a citta we are speaking > conventionally, where arising is not really a moment or thing itself. > > If "arising" is thought of as being as a thing or distinct event, > then the reasonable question is "does arising have arising, > presence, fall"? If it doesn't have arising..., then how does it > arise? Does it exist forever? > > And then the questions could be about arising or arising, arising > of arising of arising and so forth. > > So how to avoid this problem of reification? ------ N: I think that you make it all too complicated. I remember Kh Sujin saying: seeing or visible object appears, and it could not appear if it had not arisen. A reality is not present, and then it becomes present because of conditions, and then it falls away and it is not to be found anymore. When knowing about arising in theory it is not so clear. The development of insight will make it clear. The first stage of mahaa- vipassanaa clearly sees arising and falling away of realities. Nina. #119935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: There should be sati all the time. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 6-nov-2011, om 10:12 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I guess you have been discussing this "should" with others, but > "there can be sati" would be better, I think. "There should be > sati" will mislead people into wrong ways, don't you think? ------- N: But I just translated from Thai, and in this context it can be appropriate. We read something similar in the satipa.t.thaana sutat where the Buddha tells the bhikkhu to develop satipa.t.thaana during *all* his actions, speaking, being silent, etc. That is quite something. Sometimes good to hear. I think. Not to be overlooked. In the same context you can read that sati cannot be forced, manipulated, etc. We always have to consider the Middle Way. Nina. #119936 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 9:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: There should be sati all the time. philofillet Hi Nina Well, you know I have always had troubles with "should" for sati. But as a shorthand for optimism, ok. And we are unlikely to get carried away into unwise forms of conventional striving for sati. An atom of sati a day, or should have sati all the time? Both? The correct answer is neither, in my opinion. Thinking in terms of expwcted or recommended frequency of sati could get in the way :) Phil #119937 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 9:11 pm Subject: The Formerly Highly Revered Buddhist Symbol dhammasaro Good friends all, A highly respected and revered Buddhist symbol has become in much dis-respect. In fact, this same ancient Buddhist symbol was highly respected by the First Americans in what is now the USA!!! What can we do to bring back to bring this ancient Buddhist symbol to its once ancient positive prominence? Sincere warm thanks for your suggestions... peace... as ever, yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ................................................................................\ ................... Good friend Rob E, As a well known Buddhist and a very highly respected and noted contributor to the this excellent Buddhist forum: DSG; may I ask??? On the ancient symbol, the swastika; you would destroy all Buddhist images exhibiting the swastika just as you censored me for using very common German wurds???? I sincerely ask you; a very vocal (well, written) Buddhist of whom many bow in subservience... What say (well, write) you??? Sincerely and respectfully asked.... Pax vobiscum (Latin: Peace to all). yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck.............. rest deleted .......................... #119938 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 6, 2011 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: There should be sati all the time. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 6-nov-2011, om 11:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > Well, you know I have always had troubles with "should" for sati. > But as a shorthand for optimism, ok. And we are unlikely to get > carried away into unwise forms of conventional striving for sati. > An atom of sati a day, or should have sati all the time? Both? The > correct answer is neither, in my opinion. Thinking in terms of > expected or recommended frequency of sati could get in the way :) > ------ N: Thinking about frequency is in the way. Anyway, I am just a messenger, the Thai is quite strong: must. ------ Nina. > #119939 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:28 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...Teach me something." Scott: Stop looking for teachers. Scott. #119940 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Arising" of cittas truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your replies. With best wishes, Alex #119941 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 1:03 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Rob E (118276) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > > J: Well to begin with, most suttas were addressed to listeners who were ready for enlightenment, and so were persons of highly developed insight (even if that was not apparent before they heard the teachings in that lifetime). > > [RE:] Is there scriptural support for this understanding that I can read? =============== J: I recall some textual references, including suttas, but I don't have them at my fingertips. There is for example the sutta where the Buddha gives the simile of the farmer who sows his most fertile field first and the least productive one last. Perhaps someone can help with a reference on this point (anyone?). =============== > > Secondly, there are often some clues in the wording of the sutta. In the case of the section in the Satipatthana Sutta on mindfulness of breathing, these are found in the introductory words: > > > > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. > > [RE:] From the versions I have seen [6 or 7+] this is an unusual translation. Because the meaning of this sentence is of pivotal importance, I think it would be a good idea to look at a few translations and also seem what commentaries have said about it. Thai monks and Visudhimagga followers have disagreed on interpretations of key aspects of the text, including the meaning of this key sentence, and so it is far from settled. > ... > If the interpretation that several of these translators have given, as to "putting mindfulness to the fore" or "putting mindfulness in front of him" are correct, as favored by B. Bodhi, no mean translator, it can and seems to have the simple meaning of focusing the attention on mindfulness and with mindfulness in order to engage the practice of mindfulness, which is about to be instructed, as it seems to me, from scratch. =============== J: You are equating the idea of "focusing the attention on mindfulness and with mindfulness in order to engage the practice of mindfulness" with that of "arousing mindfulness". I think these are quite different notions. =============== > [RE:] I understand that you have a philosophical commitment to sati being a pure 100% cetasika that is either there or not there, but that is not justified or discussed by the text. That is an interpretation based on a predisposed view. I see mindfulness as a quality that is increased over time through practice, and that is the sense in which these suttas are written. =============== J: The commentarial view/interpretation is that mindfulness is one of the wholesome mental factors (which, as you know, are momentary in nature). If you are suggesting here that mindfulness is a mental factor of mixed wholesome and unwholesome quality (not sure is that's what you're saying), then that would definitely be an interpretation on your part since there is no statement to that effect in this (or any) sutta. =============== > [RE:] If mindfulness were already able to be maintained in the object of awareness *continuously,* as you assert, there would be *no need* for this sutta to ever have been given. The ability to maintain mindfulness and develop that capacity in each of the four "foundations" or applications, is what the sutta is there *to teach.* So your interpretation would pre-empt the purpose of the sutta and make it unnecessary and meaningless. =============== J: When wholesome qualities are highly developed they may reach the stage of becoming a power (Pali: bala), at which stage they are very constant. =============== > > Of course, references in the sutta to mindfulness are to mindfulness proper and not to a 'practice' of mixed kusala and akusala. > > [RE:] I disagree that this set of black-and-white distinctions are inherent in the sutta, or are in any way referenced by this sutta. That is a presumption on your part. I believe that this is a guide to *developing* satipatthana, not a description of how it already arises. =============== J: As far as I know, other objects of samatha development (apart from breathing) are not given the same kind of 'treatment' by the Buddha. I see this passage as addressing the particular case of the person who is developing samatha with breathing as object. Jon #119942 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 2:11 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Rob E., Regarding: N: "...Another strong text about the people of Kuru: co to the satipa.t.thaanasutta: Further, in that territory of the Kuru people..." Scott: In the text, just prior to the above quoted passage, one reads - and I've sequestered one section in particular: "The inhabitants of the Kuru country bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, upasakas, upasikas by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate, and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions, were always healthy in body and in mind. **They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings. Therefore, the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up the subject of meditation, in arahantship, in twenty-one places.** For even as a man, having got a golden basket should fill it with divers flowers, or indeed having got a golden casket should fill it with precious jewels of the seven kinds, the Blessed One, having got a following of the Kuru-land people, dispensed, it is said, deep doctrine. Likewise, on that very account, there, in the Kurus, the Blessed One, taught other deep teachings: the Maha-nidana Sutta, Maha-satipatthana Sutta, Saropama Sutta, Rukkhupama Sutta, Ratthapala Sutta, Magandiya Sutta, and the Ane~jasappaya Sutta." "106.Ekaayano aya.m, bhikkhave, maggoti. Kasmaa bhagavaa ida.m suttamabhaasi? Kurura.t.thavaasiina.m gambhiiradesanaapa.tiggaha.nasamatthataaya. Kurura.t.thavaasino kira bhikkhuu bhikkhuniyo upaasakaa upaasikaayo utupaccayaadisampannattaa tassa ra.t.thassa sappaayautupaccayasevanena nicca.m kallasariiraa kallacittaa ca honti. Te cittasariirakallataaya anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa gambhiirakatha.m pariggahetu.m samatthaa honti. Tena tesa.m bhagavaa ima.m gambhiiradesanaapa.tiggaha.nasamatthata.m sampassanto ekaviisatiyaa .thaanesu kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaa ida.m gambhiirattha.m satipa.t.thaanasutta.m abhaasi. Yathaa hi puriso suva.n.naca"nko.taka.m labhitvaa tattha naanaapupphaani pakkhipeyya, suva.n.nama~njuusa.m vaa pana labhitvaa sattaratanaani pakkhipeyya, eva.m bhagavaa kurura.t.thavaasiparisa.m labhitvaa gambhiiradesana.m desesi. Tenevettha a~n~naanipi gambhiiratthaani diighanikaaye mahaanidaana.m mahaasatipa.t.thaana.m imasmi.m majjhimanikaaye saaropama.m rukkhuupama.m raṭṭhapaala.m maaga.n.diya.m aane~njasappaayanti a~n~naanipi suttaani desesi." Scott: The commentary gives the context. These people had 'the power of knowledge (anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa) - which is pa~n~naa developed to the level of being a 'power' (balaa). This explains their situation. This also clearly and unequivocally shows 1) that we are not in their situation, and 2) that we can't apply this literally to ourselves as an instruction in any way. Scott. #119943 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 2:16 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Sorry, I've corrected the messed up Velthuis: "106.Ekaayano aya.m, bhikkhave, maggoti. Kasmaa bhagavaa ida.m suttamabhaasi? Kurura.t.thavaasiina.m gambhiiradesanaapa.tiggaha.nasamatthataaya. Kurura.t.thavaasino kira bhikkhuu bhikkhuniyo upaasakaa upaasikaayo utupaccayaadisampannattaa tassa ra.t.thassa sappaayautupaccayasevanena nicca.m kallasariiraa kallacittaa ca honti. Te cittasariirakallataaya anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa gambhiirakatha.m pariggahetu.m samatthaa honti. Tena tesa.m bhagavaa ima.m gambhiiradesanaapa.tiggaha.nasamatthata.m sampassanto ekaviisatiyaa .thaanesu kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaa ida.m gambhiirattha.m satipa.t.thaanasutta.m abhaasi. Yathaa hi puriso suva.n.naca"nko.taka.m labhitvaa tattha naanaapupphaani pakkhipeyya, suva.n.nama~njuusa.m vaa pana labhitvaa sattaratanaani pakkhipeyya, eva.m bhagavaa kurura.t.thavaasiparisa.m labhitvaa gambhiiradesana.m desesi. Tenevettha a~n~naanipi gambhiiratthaani diighanikaaye mahaanidaana.m mahaasatipa.t.thaana.m imasmi.m majjhimanikaaye saaropama.m rukkhuupama.m ra.t.thapaala.m; maaga.n.diya.m aane~njasappaayanti a~n~naanipi suttaani desesi." Scott. #119944 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 2:48 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) scottduncan2 Jon, J: I recall some textual references, including suttas, but I don't have them at my fingertips. There is for example the sutta where the Buddha gives the simile of the farmer who sows his most fertile field first and the least productive one last. Perhaps someone can help with a reference on this point (anyone?). Scott: SN 42:7 The Simile of the Field. Scott. #119945 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 3:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: There should be sati all the time. philofillet Hello Nina > > N: Thinking about frequency is in the way. Anyway, I am just a > messenger, the Thai is quite strong: must. I read somewhere that must understand the different levels of sati. Perhaps the seemingly irreconciliable distance between sati all the time and an atom of sati a day can be explained as sati of a less refined level vs. sati of satipatthana that takes characteriatics of a reality as object? Phil #119946 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/6/2011 1:26:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "upasaka@..." wrote: > > > Hi, Robert & all - > > Just using your post to mention that I 'll have no use of my computer > till tomorrow at least, and I have loads of unread posts. So, if I'm > incommunicado for a while, please bear with me! :-) Be well, Howard. Hope the rest of your weekend goes well, and that you're able to get back on-list soon! ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: I seem to be back afloat. Now I only have about 100 posts to get through. LOL! ------------------------------------------------------ Things are crazy out here lately, and we need your participation! :-) ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Mmm, I'm not so sure about that. ;-) (I may be just an irritant for some here - like a red flag in front of a bull. I don't try to be irritating, but the mere expressing of my views seems to raise hackles! And that gets a bit wearisome for me. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #119947 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 6:52 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) scottduncan2 JOn, J: I recall some textual references, including suttas, but I don't have them at my fingertips. There is for example the sutta where the Buddha gives the simile of the farmer who sows his most fertile field first and the least productive one last. Perhaps someone can help with a reference on this point (anyone?). Scott: SN 42:7 The Simile of the Field. (translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe) "[At Naalandaa the village headman Asibandhakaputta asks the Buddha:] "Does not the Blessed One dwell in compassion for all living beings?" "Indeed, headman, the Tathaagata does dwell in compassion for all living beings." "Well then, Lord, does not the Blessed One teach Dhamma in full[1] to some, but not so fully to others?" "I will reply to this question, headman, with another. Answer as seems proper to you. What do you think? Suppose a peasant farmer has three fields, one excellent, one middling, and one poor, sandy, salty, with bad soil. Tell me: when the farmer wants to sow his seed, which field would he sow first: the excellent one, the middling one or the poor one that is sandy, salty and with bad soil?" "Lord, the farmer who wanted to sow his seed would sow the excellent field first. Having done that, he would sow the middling field next, and the one that was poor, sandy, salty, with bad soil he might or might not sow. Why? Well it might do for cattle-food." "Well, headman, that excellent field is like my monks and nuns. To them I teach the Dhamma which is lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle and lovely in its ending, in spirit and in letter,[2] I display to them the holy life, perfectly fulfilled and purified. Why? Because these people adhere to me as their island, their shelter, their resort, their refuge. "The middling field is like my male and female lay-followers. To these too I teach the Dhamma which is lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle and lovely in its ending, in spirit and in letter, I display to them the holy life, perfectly fulfilled and purified. Why? Because these people adhere to me as their island, their shelter, their resort, their refuge. "The poor field that is sandy, salty and with bad soil is like my wandering recluses and Brahmans of other sects.[3] To them I also teach the Dhamma which is lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle and lovely in its ending, in spirit and in letter, I display to them the holy life, perfectly fulfilled and purified. Why? Because if they only understand a single phrase, it would long be for their profit." Scott. #119948 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:32 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Connie > > Thanks for this. One wonders how one can directly know the internal organs, perhaps the submarine from Fantastic Voyage could be employed for satipatthana purposes. Seriously, I wonder why they are included. The internal organs have functions, nerves and internal feelings that can be picked up with sensitive attention. I'm sure that as internal attention was more fine-tuned, more of this sensation and activity could be detected. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #119949 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:36 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 Rob E. and Phil, Ph: "...One wonders how one can directly know the internal organs R: "The internal organs have functions, nerves and internal feelings that can be picked up with sensitive attention. I'm sure that as internal attention was more fine-tuned, more of this sensation and activity could be detected." Scott: Pa~n~naa does not have concepts as objects. 'Internal organs' and 'nerves' and 'internal feelings' (unless this is referring to vedanaa) are all concepts. The reference is to ruupa - a reality that can be object of pa~n~naa. Scott. #119950 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:37 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...Teach me something." > > Scott: Stop looking for teachers. What a lame excuse to not say anything, after a worthy challenge. I'll have to assume that you don't know what you're talking about, and have nothing to say that can rightly defend your view of the Women Who were Praised for Practicing Satipatthana. When you're serious enough to actually explain this story with more than just dogmatic dismissal, you may be worth talking to. Right now you're just a waste of effort. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #119951 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: There should be sati all the time. epsteinrob Dear Nina, and Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 6-nov-2011, om 11:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > > Well, you know I have always had troubles with "should" for sati. > > But as a shorthand for optimism, ok. And we are unlikely to get > > carried away into unwise forms of conventional striving for sati. > > An atom of sati a day, or should have sati all the time? Both? The > > correct answer is neither, in my opinion. Thinking in terms of > > expected or recommended frequency of sati could get in the way :) > > > ------ > N: Thinking about frequency is in the way. Anyway, I am just a > messenger, the Thai is quite strong: must. It seems that K. Sujin is comfortable mixing these two ideas and having them coexist -- that sati should be there all the time - in other words, it is the correct state of awareness to have; and at the same time to be perfectly clear that sati can only arise now without control, and may or may not arise, and that we should be content with how sati develops on its own. So it should be there, but we are not the ones to put it there. We can only understand it correctly and get out of the way. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #119952 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:42 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "What a lame excuse to not say anything..." Scott: Just read on, Rob. The response you seek is ahead... Scott. #119953 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:46 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: The commentary gives the context. These people had 'the power of knowledge (anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa) - which is pa~n~naa developed to the level of being a 'power' (balaa). This explains their situation. This also clearly and unequivocally shows 1) that we are not in their situation, and 2) that we can't apply this literally to ourselves as an instruction in any way. I think your point (1) is true. I think your point (2) is not demonstrated. We are not equipped to get the depth of the teachings of the Kurus, but that does not show that practice cannot be engaged at more of a "beginner's" level. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #119954 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:52 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Scott, and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Jon, > > J: I recall some textual references, including suttas, but I don't have them at my fingertips. There is for example the sutta where the Buddha gives the simile of the farmer who sows his most fertile field first and the least productive one last. Perhaps someone can help with a reference on this point (anyone?). > > Scott: SN 42:7 The Simile of the Field. Hm. Funny that in the simile, the farmer might not bother to sow his sandy, salty, inferior field, yet Buddha says he will, as even a heretic can benefit from possible understanding of the Dhamma, even if it is slight: "The poor field that is sandy, salty and with bad soil is like my wandering recluses and Brahmans of other sects.[3] To them I also teach the Dhamma which is lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle and lovely in its ending, in spirit and in letter, I display to them the holy life, perfectly fulfilled and purified. Why? Because if they only understand a single phrase, it would long be for their profit." This suggests that even if we may not be too good at it, Buddha would enjoin us to study Dhamma, practice, etc., for even if we understand just a little bit, it will elevate our understanding and gradually produce more kusala. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #119955 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:53 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon and Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Jon, > > J: I recall some textual references, including suttas, but I don't have them at my fingertips. There is for example the sutta where the Buddha gives the simile of the farmer who sows his most fertile field first and the least productive one last. Perhaps someone can help with a reference on this point (anyone?). > > Scott: SN 42:7 The Simile of the Field. Here is Walshe's translation, from which I took the quote in the last message: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.007.wlsh.html Best, Rob E. = = = = = #119956 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:54 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Rob E., See, I told you the response was ahead of you. Say, I'm wondering if that was enough of an effort for you? Like looking up the Commentary, reading it, finding the Paa.li, working over the pasted section to make it (more or less and finally) more readable, etc. What do you think? R: "I think your point (1) is true. I think your point (2) is not demonstrated. We are not equipped to get the depth of the teachings of the Kurus, but that does not show that practice cannot be engaged at more of a 'beginner's' level." Scott: Nor does it suggest anything about 'practice.' Nina and I have agreed on the way in which one should understand 'should' and this is not about 'practice' either. You offer your own interpretation of this each time. Scott. #119957 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:55 am Subject: Re: There should be sati all the time. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > Hi Nina > > I guess you have been discussing this "should" with others, but "there can be sati" would be better, I think. "There should be sati" will mislead people into wrong ways, don't you think? > > My apologies for not having followed the discussion on the etymology of "should" but I like it in your books when I come across things like "sati may arise whatever one is doing." That is closer to the truth than "there should be sati", surely. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to look into why K. Sujin put it in the imperative? Maybe there's a reason for that which makes it better than "may arise" in this context. My feeling -- which probably doesn't interest you, but what the heck -- is that it is a spur to citta to see with sati now, rather than a "should" to be stored in the mind to "try" to do something. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #119958 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reply to Rob E was Do We All Agree... epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Mmm, I'm not so sure about that. ;-) (I may be just an irritant for > some here - like a red flag in front of a bull. I don't try to be irritating, > but the mere expressing of my views seems to raise hackles! And that gets > a bit wearisome for me. ;-) > --------------------------------------------------- Fortunately I don't experience that at all. :-))) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #119959 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:58 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...This suggests that even if we may not be too good at it, Buddha would enjoin us to study Dhamma, practice, etc., for even if we understand just a little bit, it will elevate our understanding and gradually produce more kusala." Scott: It is merely your own interpretation that you are repeating here. Scott. #119960 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:16 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E. and Phil, > > Ph: "...One wonders how one can directly know the internal organs > > R: "The internal organs have functions, nerves and internal feelings that can be picked up with sensitive attention. I'm sure that as internal attention was more fine-tuned, more of this sensation and activity could be detected." > > Scott: Pa~n~naa does not have concepts as objects. 'Internal organs' and 'nerves' and 'internal feelings' (unless this is referring to vedanaa) are all concepts. The reference is to ruupa - a reality that can be object of pa~n~naa. So Buddha was just spouting nonsense when he spoke systematically and clearly about such practices? Is that your view? My view is that he was directing awareness to particular areas of experience in which the rupas could be discerned when sati was ready. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #119961 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:20 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > See, I told you the response was ahead of you. Say, I'm wondering if that was enough of an effort for you? Like looking up the Commentary, reading it, finding the Paa.li, working over the pasted section to make it (more or less and finally) more readable, etc. What do you think? Sure, nice research effort, and good information. However, you failed to address my original question at all, now for the third or so time. > R: "I think your point (1) is true. I think your point (2) is not demonstrated. We are not equipped to get the depth of the teachings of the Kurus, but that does not show that practice cannot be engaged at more of a 'beginner's' level." > > Scott: Nor does it suggest anything about 'practice.' Nina and I have agreed on the way in which one should understand 'should' and this is not about 'practice' either. You offer your own interpretation of this each time. No, I do not. You ignore what the sutta says each time. I asked you to account for the praise that was given to the women who practiced satipatthana, and the disdain in which those who did not practice were regarded. The fact that the Kurus were advanced in understanding does not account for the fact that those who practiced were praised, and those who did not were considered not true followers of Buddha. Please account for that, not for something else. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #119962 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:26 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "So Buddha was just spouting nonsense when he spoke systematically and clearly about such practices? Is that your view?" Scott: My view on the above is that it is a rather weak argument to produce when one's position is countered. Why on earth would it mean that the Buddha 'was just spouting nonsense' simply because one's own interpretation of what the Buddha said is challenged? The only reason I've ever been able to come up with in the face of this oft-repeated petulance is to think that the one who makes this argument equates his or her own interpretation with 'what the Buddha said.' R: "My view is that he was directing awareness to particular areas of experience in which the rupas could be discerned when sati was ready." Scott: What is 'an area of experience?' 'Experience' - the ever-used and never-defined term - would seem to me to be the territory of naama. But, yeah, if in all of this you are agreeing that it is ruupa that is the object of satipa.t.thaana, and not 'internal organs' or any concept, then, woo hoo! Scott. #119963 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:32 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...This suggests that even if we may not be too good at it, Buddha would enjoin us to study Dhamma, practice, etc., for even if we understand just a little bit, it will elevate our understanding and gradually produce more kusala." > > Scott: It is merely your own interpretation that you are repeating here. Well you can be sure that I'm not going to repeat yours. Why don't you say something substantive about my view and what you think is the case, rather than making repeated statements that what I say is an interpretation? What do you think is the correct interpretation? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #119964 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:35 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Sure, nice research effort, and good information. However, you failed to address my original question at all, now for the third or so time." Scott: Thanks, Rob. And I thought I disagreed with your spinning it back and calling it 'practice.' R: "...You ignore what the sutta says each time..." Scott: We are actually dealing with a commentarial passage, in this case. R: "..I asked you to account for the praise that was given to the women who practiced satipatthana, and the disdain in which those who did not practice were regarded. The fact that the Kurus were advanced in understanding does not account for the fact that those who practiced were praised, and those who did not were considered not true followers of Buddha. Please account for that, not for something else." Scott: Well, Rob, I still disagree with your imposing your very own interpretation of 'practice' onto the text. This is your own implication and it is based on your own idiosyncratic use of the word 'practice' and this, as you've shown many times, amounts to something that someone does consciously and willfully. Try this: I do not praise your interpretation, I disdain it. And I only say this to say, does this work to change it? Of course not. Praise and blame could be condition for something, I suppose - 'could be' mind you. What's so important for you about this 'praise' and 'disdain' aspect of the commentary? Scott. #119965 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:36 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "So Buddha was just spouting nonsense when he spoke systematically and clearly about such practices? Is that your view?" > > Scott: My view on the above is that it is a rather weak argument to produce when one's position is countered. Why on earth would it mean that the Buddha 'was just spouting nonsense' simply because one's own interpretation of what the Buddha said is challenged? It's not an interpreation, for the hundreth time, top quote the actual sutta and ask you what you think it means. > The only reason I've ever been able to come up with in the face of this oft-repeated petulance is to think that the one who makes this argument equates his or her own interpretation with 'what the Buddha said.' What's your interpretation? You refuse to comment on what the sutta actually says. That doesn't prove my view is wrong or that you are right, only that you don't care whether your view has a basis or not. > R: "My view is that he was directing awareness to particular areas of experience in which the rupas could be discerned when sati was ready." > > Scott: What is 'an area of experience?' 'Experience' - the ever-used and never-defined term - Which is used constantly in Abhidhamma, by Nina and in commentary, for what a citta does - it experiences things. Why are you so stubborn that you impute things to me about a word that is used in all of your references? I don't get it. We've been over this ground before. Citta is that which experiences. Anything that citta experiences is an experience. That's all that means. >...would seem to me to be the territory of naama. But, yeah, if in all of this you are agreeing that it is ruupa that is the object of satipa.t.thaana, and not 'internal organs' or any concept, then, woo hoo! Rupas pertain to different areas of experience that also are referred to by concepts, but the rupas are more specific and are actual experiences rather than concepts. So Buddha is directing to the rupas that pertain to this or that area. They're not just "rupas in general." Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #119966 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:44 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "It's not an interpreation..." Scott: Is too. Ha ha. A2d. R: "...Rupas pertain to different areas of experience that also are referred to by concepts, but the rupas are more specific and are actual experiences rather than concepts. So Buddha is directing to the rupas that pertain to this or that area. They're not just 'rupas in general.'" Scott: What *is* an 'area of experience?' Like a 'part of the body?' That is just a concept, as is 'body' for that matter. You just clarified that, for you, citta is experience. Citta arises and falls away. Citta has an object. In this case, it would be ruupa. Ruupa also arises and falls away, although at a different rate than does citta. 'Area of experience' simply makes no sense. Now, if you are referring to a concept, then we are now talking about mind-door stuff. Scott. #119967 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 9:50 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" philofillet Hello all > Thanks for this. One wonders how one can directly know the internal organs, perhaps the submarine from Fantastic Voyage could be employed for satipatthana purposes. Seriously, I wonder why they are included. This was of course incorrect on my part. The presence of any body part (concepts) on a list of what are said to be ultimate realities that can be directly known rather than thought about is puzzling, irregardless of internal or external. I will leave my participation in this thead there, it already has a2d (agree to disagree) written all over it. Phil #119968 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 10:09 am Subject: Re: There should be sati all the time. philofillet Hello Rob E > > My feeling -- which probably doesn't interest you, but what the heck -- is that it is a spur to citta to see with sati now, rather than a "should" to be stored in the mind to "try" to do something. Ph: Yes, again please understand that it is nothing personal, but I'm not really interested in the opinions of anyone who has not made a diligent effort to study Dhamma rather than just "discuss" it in order to share interpretations, feelings, hunches, theories, opinions etc, unless they are newcomers to Dhamma. I know you are a good guy and all that, but I'll be ignoring your posts until I see a sign of serious study, which I think is the only way you're going to get by your belief in atta-rooted practices. No, that's not true, something may "click", it did for me. But I don't have enough patience ( virya) and generosity to be the click inducer, please understand. Phil. #119969 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 10:55 am Subject: Aggregates, spheres, elements,...= concepts? truth_aerator Dear Nina, In Puggalapaññatti on the first first page it says that Aggregates, spheres, elements, truths, faculties, and people are concepts (paññatti). "Cha paññattiyo – khandhapaññatti, āyatanapaññatti, dhātupaññatti, saccapaññatti, indriyapaññatti, puggalapaññattīti." What do you think? With best wishes, Alex #119970 From: "connie" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 11:47 am Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" nichiconn hey Phil - > Thanks for this. One wonders how one can directly know the internal organs, perhaps the submarine from Fantastic Voyage could be employed for satipatthana purposes. Seriously, I wonder why they are included. > Funny how little things change, eh? Read #95186 - now that's classic. So too, bhikkhus, when anyone has developed and cultivated mindfulness of the body, Maara cannot find an opportunity or a support in him. MN 119 - Kaayagataasati Sutta down periscope, connie #119971 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 10:54 am Subject: Re: There should be sati all the time. dhammasaro Hey Phil, I relate to what you wrote, in part: ...but I'm not really interested in the opinions of anyone who has not made a diligent effort to study Dhamma rather than just "discuss" it in order to share interpretations, feelings, hunches, theories, opinions etc, unless they are newcomers to Dhamma... Right on... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............. rest deleted ..................... #119972 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:13 pm Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 connie, c: "Funny how little things change, eh? Read #95186 - now that's classic..." Scott: Hey, I enjoyed re-reading that. I still very much agree with that iteration of myself. Scott. #119973 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:21 pm Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "Sure, nice research effort, and good information. However, you failed to address my original question at all, now for the third or so time." > > Scott: Thanks, Rob. And I thought I disagreed with your spinning it back and calling it 'practice.' > > R: "...You ignore what the sutta says each time..." > > Scott: We are actually dealing with a commentarial passage, in this case. > > R: "..I asked you to account for the praise that was given to the women who practiced satipatthana, and the disdain in which those who did not practice were regarded. The fact that the Kurus were advanced in understanding does not account for the fact that those who practiced were praised, and those who did not were considered not true followers of Buddha. Please account for that, not for something else." > > Scott: Well, Rob, I still disagree with your imposing your very own interpretation of 'practice' onto the text. This is your own implication and it is based on your own idiosyncratic use of the word 'practice' and this, as you've shown many times, amounts to something that someone does consciously and willfully. > > Try this: I do not praise your interpretation, I disdain it. And I only say this to say, does this work to change it? Of course not. Praise and blame could be condition for something, I suppose - 'could be' mind you. What's so important for you about this 'praise' and 'disdain' aspect of the commentary? Yeah, I got it the first time that you disagreed with my interpretation of the commentary, my definition of practice, etc., etc. Got it, message received. However you still refuse to answer the question - what is your understanding of the praise and blame that the women of Kuru were given for practicing or not practicing one of the foundations of mindfulness? The actual story tells what happened. The part about the culture of the Kurus is not about dhammas, it is not a technical part of the story, it's about how people regarded the practice of satipatthana and how those of high understanding in that clearly praiseworthy Buddhist culture responded to the story, saying "these are true followers of Dhamma" regarding those women who practiced satipatthana and who criticized those who did not. So that is the aspect I am asking you about - what do *you* think is the significance of this report and the praising of those women for being so devoted to the practice of satipatthana? The way the story is told, it is very clear that these women were actively pursuing one of the developmental practices of mindfulness that was appropriate to them. So what does that mean to you? Does it have no significance? Any? Rather than just saying I am wrong, tell me what you think the right interpretation is from your point of view. My point of view is that the women were clearly praised for being devoted to the specific practices they were engaged in to develop mindfulness. If you want to argue that these exceptionally gifted kurus who 'by their nature' were inclined to mindfulness and had a higher level of panna, thus especially equipped for such a practice, that is a fair argument that we can look at. But to say that mindfulness practice was not praised when it clearly was is to ignore the true story in the commentary. That's the significance to me. Here is the commentary passage in question: Further, in that territory of the Kuru people, the four classes bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." Notice the phrases that indicate active practice: "earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness" "...which arousing of mindfulness do you practice?" Those who were admonished for not practicing were then "taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing" according to the commentary. One who said that "she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness" was greatly praised. So what do you think of those statements from the commentary? What do they mean in your view? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #119974 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:29 pm Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "It's not an interpreation..." > > Scott: Is too. Ha ha. A2d. > > R: "...Rupas pertain to different areas of experience that also are referred to by concepts, but the rupas are more specific and are actual experiences rather than concepts. So Buddha is directing to the rupas that pertain to this or that area. They're not just 'rupas in general.'" > > Scott: What *is* an 'area of experience?' Like a 'part of the body?' That is just a concept, as is 'body' for that matter. You just clarified that, for you, citta is experience. Citta arises and falls away. Citta has an object. In this case, it would be ruupa. Ruupa also arises and falls away, although at a different rate than does citta. 'Area of experience' simply makes no sense. Now, if you are referring to a concept, then we are now talking about mind-door stuff. What is your interpretation of the Buddha's rundown on the mindfulness of the body parts and internal organs. What is your understanding of the purpose of these passages? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #119975 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:33 pm Subject: Re: There should be sati all the time. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hello Rob E > > > > My feeling -- which probably doesn't interest you, but what the heck -- is that it is a spur to citta to see with sati now, rather than a "should" to be stored in the mind to "try" to do something. > > > Ph: Yes, again please understand that it is nothing personal, but I'm not really interested in the opinions of anyone who has not made a diligent effort to study Dhamma rather than just "discuss" it in order to share interpretations, feelings, hunches, theories, opinions etc, unless they are newcomers to Dhamma. I have my own learning pattern, but I've put in more effort and understand more than you are willing to acknowledge. But sure I have big gaps and have not studied systematically, for what that's worth. But still have inquired and read and considered quite a lot. > I know you are a good guy and all that, but I'll be ignoring your posts until I see a sign of serious study, which I think is the only way you're going to get by your belief in atta-rooted practices. Disagreement with you or others on the nature of practice does not show ignorance, but a difference in view. But you may feel free to see it that way if that's what you need to do. > No, that's not true, something may "click", it did for me. But I don't have enough patience ( virya) and generosity to be the click inducer, please understand. No click-induction necessary. Respond when you feel like it; otherwise don't. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #119976 From: "connie" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:50 pm Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" nichiconn ditto, Scott. connie > > c: "Funny how little things change, eh? Read #95186 - now that's classic..." > > Scott: Hey, I enjoyed re-reading that. I still very much agree with that iteration of myself. > #119977 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 1:02 pm Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...what is your understanding of the praise and blame that the women of Kuru were given for practicing or not practicing one of the foundations of mindfulness?...So what do you think of those statements from the commentary? What do they mean in your view?" Scott: In case you haven't already digested my message to you, let me reiterate: I do not praise your view. I do not praise it in the same way in which the woman's view and behaviour was not praised; in the same way in which I chastise you for your view, which is wrong, these people chastised the woman's stance. That's it. I have made clear the reasons for my view. We have no record of how the chastisement effected the woman. We can derive no conclusions from this. We can see what happens to you next... Scott. #119978 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 1:09 pm Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...What is your interpretation of the Buddha's rundown on the mindfulness of the body parts and internal organs. What is your understanding of the purpose of these passages? Scott: I told you, Rob. It's about ruupa as object of satipa.t.thaana,, not 'body parts' and 'internal organs.' Scott. #119979 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 1:31 pm Subject: Why Buddha couldn't express Himself properly? truth_aerator Hi Scott, >R: "...What is your interpretation of the Buddha's rundown on the >mindfulness of the body parts and internal organs. What is your >understanding of the purpose of these passages? > >Scott: I told you, Rob. It's about ruupa as object of >satipa.t.thaana,, not 'body parts' and 'internal organs.' >==================================================== Then why did the Buddha talk about body part and internal organs if one isn't supposed to think about them? Why mislead people? Why couldn't the Buddha say that "take rupa as object of satipatthana, don't take body parts!". Was the Buddha such an incompetent teacher who couldn't clearly express himself? With best wishes, Alex #119980 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Why Buddha couldn't express Himself properly? scottduncan2 Alex, A: "...Was the Buddha such an incompetent teacher who couldn't clearly express himself?" Scott: Umm. You've read here long enough, Alex. Asked and answered. Scott. #119981 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:50 am Subject: Samsara is Endless... bhikkhu5 Friends: One can Escape the Suffering of Samsara! The Blessed Buddha once said: Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara; not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who, blinded by ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths... Source: (edited excerpt) SN 3:35 Some Comments: Samsara is the crushing wheel of existence, which literally is meaning 'perpetual wandering': A sea of life & death ever restlessly heaving up & down, the symbol of this never-ending process of ever again & again being born, growing old, becoming weak & sick, suffering, and dying... More precisely put: Samsara is the unbroken sequence of re-arisings of combinations of the momentary events of the 5-fold cluster of clinging, which constantly changing from moment to moment, follow continually one upon the other, through inconceivable periods of time. A single life constitutes only a tiny microscopic fraction of these trillions of eons... In order to comprehend the 1st noble truth, one must therefore gaze long and contemplate upon this Samsara, upon this frightful sequence of ever rebirth mostly in lower painful forms, and not merely upon one single lifetime, which may sometimes not seem very painful until aged... The term Suffering: Dukkha in the first noble truth therefore refers not only to painful bodily & mental feelings, caused now by displeasing contacts & contacts, but it comprises in addition every thing creating suffering or which is liable to produce it later... The truth of Suffering teaches that, owing to the universal law of impermanence, even high and sublime states of happiness are subject to change and destruction, and that all states of existence therefore ultimately are unsatisfactory... Without exception they all carry in themselves the seeds of suffering! 'Du' means bad. 'Kha' means state. Dukkha thus means 'Bad State'... Samsara is a Bad State of Suffering. Nibbna is a Good State of Peace! <...> Source (edited excerpt): The Word of the Buddha: Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahthera. http://www.pariyatti.com/book_404201.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #119982 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 6:51 pm Subject: Re: "There is so a self. It says so in the suttas." sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > The moderator at another group Alex belongs to has latched onto atthabhava to justify his ditthi. I remember there is a term attabhavapatilabho or something like that I was very fond of when I was looking for ways to get away with exercising self. ----- S: As you suggest, not so long ago you were also latching on to terms that might justify how there really must be a real *Phil*. May it be a condition for compassion and understanding for everyone else who does the same! Quoting a couple of old posts on this, including my reply to your previous "phrase of the month, 'attabhavapatilabho'": **** As quoted by Larry in @18778 IX 52: The mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is [practiced] with directional pervasion in these ten ways:...May all persons in the eastern direction...May all who have personality in the eastern direction... IX 54: ..."Persons" (puggala: 'pum' is what hell is called; they fall (galanti) into that is the meaning. "Personality" (attabhava) is what the physical body is called; or it is just the pentad of aggregates. (7 (7: ...see also ch. VIII, n. 11 VIII 39: Life, person, pleasure pain--just these alone join in one consciousness moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive are all alike, gone never to return. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not produced; when that is present, then it lives; when consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: the highest sense this concept will allow. (Nd1 42) (11 (11: "Person (attabhava)" is the states other than the already-mentioned life, feeling and consciousness. The words "just these alone" mean that it is unmixed with self (atta) or permanence. Attabhava as used in the Suttas and in this work is more or less a synonym for sakkaya in the sense of person (body and mind) or personality, or individual form. ... "When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead": just as in the case of the death-consciousness, this world is also called "dead" in the highest (ultimate) sense with the arrival of any consciousness whatever at its dissolution, since its cessation has no rebirth-linking (is "cessation never to return"). Nevertheless though this is so, "the highest sense this concept will allow (pa~n~natti paramatthiyaa) --the ultimate sense will allow this concept of continuity, which is what the expression of common usage "Tissa lives, Phussa lives" refers to, and which is based on consciousness [momentarily] existing along with a physical support; this belongs to the ultimate sense here, since, as they say "It is not the name and surname that lives."... **** My reply to Phil, #81336 >Hi Phil & all, I'm interested to explore your phrase of the month,"attabhavapatilabho", with you. You've referred to it a few times, as in recently: --- Phil wrote: > All > those suttas getting at "the all" in very paramattha terms. On the > other hand, as I posted recently, coming across the > term "attabhavapatilabho", meaning "individual form of existence" > did give me pause to consider whether "no phil" could be said to be > true - in this lifetime, there is an "individual form of existence" > and that *is* "phil." Anyways, interesting to keep reflecting on. ..... S: As you've mentioned, it is referred to in SN 19:1: "That being, bhikkhus, used to be a cattle butcher in this same Raajagaha. Having been tormented in hell for many years, for many hundred s of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundreds of thousands of years as a result of that kamma, as a residual result of that same kamma he is experiencing such a form [S: a ghost in the form of a skeleton] of individual existence (attabhaavapa.tilaabho)." The same phrase was used in the preceding paragraph and B.Bodhi gave a note on it which you referred to: BB: "The expression 'attabhaapa.tilaabho', which literally means "acquisition of selfhood," is used idiomatically to denote a concrete form of individual identity..." S: In absolute terms, there is no Phil, no wife and no skeleton ghost. However, with or without understanding we refer conventionally to the accumulations and various combination of khandhas as 'Phil' or the 'skeleton ghost' or the particular 'individual existence' in that life. I've referred to a note on the same phrase in another sutta which you may be interested to look at. (The following is extracted from my earlier posts , #18926 and #31885). >S:In the Thera Sutta (SN 21:10 'A Bhikkhu Named Elder in the B.Bodhi transl.), it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so they raised the issue with the Buddha. The Buddha summoned Thera who confirmed he lived and followed all these activities alone and also praised living alone. The Buddha doesn't disagree, but said : "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person `one who dwells alone.' "** ..... Footnotes to Thera Sutta (B.Bodhi trans): *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the future. **"(Spk): `All-conqueror'(sbbaabhibhu.m): one who abides having overcome all aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the three kinds of existence. `Unsullied'(anupalitta.m, or "unstuck") among hose very things by the paste (lepa) of craving and views. "Liberated in the destruction of craving (ta.nhakkhaye vimutta.m): liberated in Nibbana, called the destruction of craving by way of the liberation that takes this as its object." ***** S: So there are the two meanings of 'living alone'.For some by inclination or natural tendency (pakati) they will live alone in the first sense like Thera. However, we all have to learn to live alone without 'desire and lust' regardless of whether we're in the forest or the village, alone or with others. From ~Naa,nananda's comments (`Ideal Solitude', Wheel 188): "Idha Thera ya.m atiita.m pahiia.m what is past is abandoned ya.m anaagata.m pa.tinissata.m The future is relinquished Paccupannesa ca ***attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu*** chandaraago suppa.tiviniito And the desire and lust for the present modes of personality is well under control Eva.m kho Thera ekavihaaro vitthaarena paripu.n.no hoti It is thus, Elder, that (the ideal of) lone-dwelling becomes fulfilled,in all its details. Naa.nananda adds: "We saw above how the Theranamo Sutta expounds the true ideal of solitude (ekaviharo) as against the popular and commonplace concept of solitude. The true ideal is depicted as a `solitude' of mind, gained by giving up everything belonging to the past and the future and by disciplining well the desire and lust for one's present modes of personality."< **** S: In brief, I see the phrase 'attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu' as being a conventional reference to 'personality' or 'present form', i.e the 5 khandhas. May we all learn this true solitude or lone-dwelling. **** Metta, Sarah ======= #119983 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "There is so a self. It says so in the suttas." nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 7-nov-2011, om 8:51 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: In brief, I see the phrase 'attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu' as being a > conventional reference to 'personality' or 'present form', i.e the 5 > khandhas. May we all learn this true solitude or lone-dwelling. ------ N: Thank you. I was so glad to get from you the co to my favorite: Life, pleasure, pain... --- Nina. #119984 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Can a Non-Buddhist Act as a Buddhist? was: Off Topic: An Unkownd Texas Ranger sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Scott: He seems to suggest that 'luminous' refers to characteristic or function. He seems to be referring to 'vi~n~naa.na.' Attasaalinii (p.186) notes: 'Vi~n~naa.na is cognizing.' .... S: Yes, as we know, this is a favourite suta "The Luminous Sutta" amongst Mahayana followers and this has had a lot of influence. See more on "Vi~n~naa.na & Nibbana" in U.P. This is the first one, #16916 and I think it's relevant to the comments quoted on the Luminous Sutta: Sarah: >Suan wrote: > > "Viaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in > > Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta > > Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. ..... Christine wrote: >The quote "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." was Verse 25 is in MN49 hard copy trans. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi "Middle Length discourses of the Buddha" (Wisdom, 1995) top of page 428. ..... > n.513 "MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized". This is obviously a contrived derivation, since nowhere in the Canon is Nibbana ever described as consciousness. <<{As you also said Suan, "It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts.}>> MA offers three explanations of the phrase subbato pabham: (1) completely possessed of splendour (pabha); (2) possessing being (pabhutam) everywhere; and (3) a ford (pahham) accessible from all sides, i.e. through any of the thirty-eight meditation objects. Only the first of these seems to have any linguistic legitimacy..." ***** ..... Sarah: In an earlier post I wrote: "The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be understood as 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the Pali com. as Jim explained to me. As I mentioned, B.Bodhi also added in his notes (513). , "MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized" '. ----------------------------------- Perhaps another translation of the first line could be: 'Cognizable (vi~n~naa.na.m), invisible (anidassana.m), shinining in all directions (ananta.m sabbatopabha)'" ***** In the note Christine supplied from B.Bodhi's MN, there was the suggestion that the commentary suggestion of nibbana here is `obviously a contrived derivation' and Howard makes the valid point that it is not used elsewhere with this meaning. On the other hand: 1. It makes perfect sense to some of us and conforms with the meaning of other suttas and parts of the Tipitaka as we understand it, though it's strange perhaps that the phrase is not used in other places . 2. It conforms with other passages, such as the ones from the Udana and Itivuttaka where nibbana is specifically mentioned in the commentaries referring to similar contexts. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15418 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16744 3. Perhaps commentaries should be given the respect by us that they've been given by the Sangha through the ages in terms of representing the truth of the Teachings and should not be dismissed lightly when they are not readily understood by us. 4.The suggestion by B.Thanissaro that though it says the aggregate of consciousness "includes all consciousness, `past, present, or future..near or far'", this particular consciousness is not included, makes little sense to me and is not supported by either the commentaries of the Tipitaka itself imho. 5. B.Bodhi quotes the MA (commentary) as offering 3 explanations of the phrase subbato pabham. He suggests only the first one ("completely possessed of splendour (pabha)) as having any `linguistic legitimacy'. In terms of meaning, they would all seem appropriate to me and like the discussion on ekayaana, they may all be legitimate, I would think (though I can't comment on the Pali). Walshe suggests `lucid in every respect' for sabbato pabham. He then compares the phrase to our DSG favourite one in AN on `luminous mind', but this would be missing the point and meaning of both, as I understand. 6. Walshe also refers to Nanananda's `Concept and Reality' in which it explains apparently that `the four great elements do not find a footing - and that `Name-and-Form' (comprehending them) can be cut off completely - in that `anidassana-vinnana' (the `non-manifestive consciousness') of the Arahant, by the cessation of his normal consciousness which rests on the data of sense-experience..." This clearly doesn't accord with the abhidhamma or with any parts of the Tipitaka, such as the Udana (see link above) as I understand.< *** Metta Sarah ===== #119985 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Scott, Op 6-nov-2011, om 16:11 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > > "The inhabitants of the Kuru country bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, > upasakas, upasikas .... > > **They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power > of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings. Therefore, > the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this > profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the > Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up > the subject of meditation, in arahantship, in twenty-one places.** > > > Scott: The commentary gives the context. These people had 'the > power of knowledge (anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa) - which is pa~n~naa > developed to the level of being a 'power' (balaa). This explains > their situation. This also clearly and unequivocally shows 1) that > we are not in their situation, and 2) that we can't apply this > literally to ourselves as an instruction in any way. > --------- N: Thank you very much for the text and the Pali. Very good. True, when sati has become a power, it can arise in any situation, any time. I find this text a good reminder. Those inhabitants of Kuru also were once beginners, just like us. They had patience and endurance to continue developing satipa.t.thaana, life after life. They would not forget the reality appearing of the present moment. They knew that whatever they heard of the teachings was not theory, but pertaining to this very moment. If one keeps on forgetting this the goal cannot be reached. I am glad about any utterance, in a text of Tipi.taka or commentary, or by any person, no matter who he is, that can remind me of the present moment. I badly need this. ------- Nina. #119986 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: There should be sati all the time. nilovg Dear Rob E and Phil, Op 6-nov-2011, om 21:41 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > N: Thinking about frequency is in the way. Anyway, I am just a > > messenger, the Thai is quite strong: must. > > It seems that K. Sujin is comfortable mixing these two ideas and > having them coexist -- that sati should be there all the time - in > other words, it is the correct state of awareness to have; and at > the same time to be perfectly clear that sati can only arise now > without control, and may or may not arise, and that we should be > content with how sati develops on its own. So it should be there, > but we are not the ones to put it there. We can only understand it > correctly and get out of the way. ----- N: Yes, this is quite true. Kh Sujin was also addressing a Thai public, and, in general, their reactions are different from Westerners I think. The Thais also have questions but there is less arguing and debating over one word or term. Phil mentions other levels of sati but in this context it is clearly sati of satipa.t.thaana. ----- Nina. #119987 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: There should be sati all the time. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 6-nov-2011, om 21:55 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Wouldn't it be worthwhile to look into why K. Sujin put it in the > imperative? Maybe there's a reason for that which makes it better > than "may arise" in this context. > > My feeling -- which probably doesn't interest you, but what the > heck -- is that it is a spur to citta to see with sati now, rather > than a "should" to be stored in the mind to "try" to do something. ------- N: Should, surely not imperative. Not trying to do something. Just a reminder, that is how I take it and I have no problems with this should. ----- Nina. #119988 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama more subtle than rupa? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: The reason I wrote that is because I heard today, in the same talk, A.S say re that loud sound and hardness that it shows how fast realities are, rising and falling away, but "sanna keeps on thinking in the sea of concepts." So maybe when the object is conepts, we can say sanna thinks, effectively, but when it is visible object, "sanna thinks" is wrong...? .... S: Because of sanna marking and remembering what is seen, heard and thought about, there is more and more thinking about concepts, a "sea of concepts". Metta Sarah ===== #119989 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Scott , Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: "...Just as I heard this morning: there should be sati all the > > time Thai: thug mya), no matter when eating, talking, walking, etc. A > > good reminder and we know that sati cannot be manipulated by a self." > > > > Scott: Here is another one of those statements as we just > > discussed. How do you understand the phrase: 'there should be sati > > all the time?' Is this a statement of possibility? Of command? To > > initiate activity designed to make sati arise 'all the time?' Is it > > even possible for sati to arise 'all the time?' > > -------- > > > N: I was surprised myself and checked the Thai dictionary. Yes, all > the time. .... S: Jon & I went out for a Thai lunch yesterday* and Jon chatted about the meaning of "thug mya" with the waitress. At first she said "all", but then paused and said this meant "at any time", "mua-rai goh dai" she repeated. With your other note about the strong "must" "N:the Thai is quite strong: must", perhaps we can say the meaning is that ***there must be sati at anytime***, stressing, as you point out repeatedly, that the development must be natural ("pokketi cerun sati"). It *must* be like this, otherwise there's self and wrong practice when there's an idea of sati on particular occasions or being aware of particular objects. Metta Sarah ==== #119990 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > That really is interesting, Howard. It sheds some light on the issue and also leads me to consider another issue. I would still like to know whether in Abhidhamma when the bodily 'kaya' is mentioned as a field of mindful awareness, whether the body as an aggregate is being considered, or whether that is a shorthand for the specific rupas associated with the body to be understood through mindfulness. .... S: Sometimes it is referring (as in Satipatthana Sutta) to the rupas taken for the physical body. There can be awareness of one rupa at a time. Each rupa is rupa khandha. In other contexts, kaya refers to the cetasikas accompanying a citta, "the body". So when we see words such as "body" or "kaya" we need to consider carefully. More in U.P. under "kaya", but I quite understand, you find it more helpful to discuss, which is very fine with me. ... > > Your talking about the kaya, or aggregate of the body, only being apprehended through the mind-door, leads me to ask another question. .... S: (I think that was something Howard mentioned). An idea of body or an idea of khandha, can only be apprehended through the mind-door as you both say, but rupa khandha, such as visible object or hardness is of course experienced through the sense door first. Just remembered that Nina replied to the other points, so will leave it there. Metta Sarah p.s Nina, I was going to mention with regard to the Thai lunch, that today is our 30th wedding anniversary. It goes past in a flash as you always say.... ======= #119991 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for your elaborations. Nina. Op 7-nov-2011, om 9:49 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Jon & I went out for a Thai lunch yesterday* and Jon chatted about > the meaning of "thug mya" with the waitress. At first she said > "all", but then paused and said this meant "at any time", "mua-rai > goh dai" she repeated. > > With your other note about the strong "must" "N:the Thai is > quite strong: must", perhaps we can say the meaning is that > ***there must be sati at anytime***, stressing, as you point out > repeatedly, that the development must be natural ("pokketi cerun > sati"). It *must* be like this, otherwise there's self and wrong > practice when there's an idea of sati on particular occasions or > being aware of particular objects. #119992 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 7-nov-2011, om 9:59 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > p.s Nina, I was going to mention with regard to the Thai lunch, > that today is our 30th wedding anniversary. It goes past in a flash > as you always say.... N: Our heartfelt congratulations. Next year is our diamond wedding day, but we are never sure whether we are both alive by then. We keep that in mind. Time flies. Nina. #119993 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:45 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > S: "Yes....I think the danger is when we get hung up on the words or the text and take the reciting or clarifying of these to be pariyatti rather than the understanding now, at a considering level, of the actual dhammas appearing..." > > Scott: Could you differentiate between 'clarifying' words and 'considering level' understanding? Despite appearing to agree about pariyatti, you continue to make this distinction. Do you see me as missing something here? .... S: Again 'clarifying', like reading texts or listening to the Dhamma, even to the Buddha, can be with kusala or akusala cittas. Like now, we're clarifying our meaning - kusala or akusala? Many different cittas. On the other hand, 'considering level' understanding or pariyatti must refer to moments of understanding, kusala cittas only. Of course, such 'considering' is different from our usual ideas of thinking or considering involving a long story. .... > > S: "It is not the words, but the understanding of those particular words that is the condition for enlightenment, for direct realisation of the very dhammas being discussed. Many, many other beings would hear just the same words, but without the accumulations for such insight to arise." > > Scott: Okay. For discussion's sake, what might it be about these particular words that is understood, what is this understanding, and in what way is this condition for 'direct realisation?' .... S: a) It is the particular sounds interpreted as concepts related to the Truths, to paramattha dhammas, b) it is the conceptual understanding in the first place about what is taught as being the truth about reality at this moment, c) this right conceptual understanding is the condition for direct understanding of realities to arise and develop. Without hearing about the Truths, about paramattha dhammas, there cannot be any understanding of them, let alone realisation. ... > Scott: I am simply using 'mundane discussion' or 'mundane study of texts' to refer to the distinction I thought we had already made between ordinary study and the actual 'study' of dhammas. We had been differentiating these, and, I thought, agreeing about the distinction. Again, am I saying anything that leads you to think I've not gotten something about this? .... S: 'Mundane' is usually used as a translation of lokiya as opposed to lokuttara, so I was a little confused. When there is the "actual 'study' of dhammas now, it is mundane understanding, not to be confused with 'discussion' or 'study of texts'. Anyway, I'm sure this is all agreed. ... > Sarah: "There is yoniso manasikaara whenever kusala cittas arise. Usually it refers in context to the arising of p~an~naa. If there is thinking wisely, there must be yoniso manasikaara with pa~n~naa arising." > > Scott: Do you consider 'thinking wisely' to include thoughts with content? If so, what are the constituents of this thought content? Remembered words from the texts? Other contents? .... S: Yes, when there is "thinking wisely" with panna, it must be thinking about thoughts, concepts, just as when there is unwise thinking. Thinking wisely with panna is pariyatti if the 'content' is dhamma or dhammas, such as an understanding of visible object as being all that is seen at this very moment. There may also be wise thinking about objects of samatha but which is not pariyatti. It is the nature of panna, the nature of the citta rather than particular words that determines whether the reflection is wise or not. .... > > Sarah: "Yes, but I'm saying we can never 'think' our way through to determining which aspects of reading or listening is pariyatti, because it is only pa~n~naa that knows when pa~n~naa (of any kind) appears and it is only pa~n~naa which is the determining factor for this, not the activity at any time." <...> > Sarah: "I'm saying, never mind about the 'others', the 'opposing views' and so on. What's important for all of us, whether in agreement or not, is the understanding now of what appears. I don't think we can emphasise the present dhammas too much." > > Scott: Okay, this is more clear. You are expressing two separate thoughts sort of in one. On the one hand you are expressing an opinion about how to see discussions on the list, while on the other hand reiterating what we already agree to. It makes more sense that one part of our discussion is still about how to relate with others and other opinions on the list. .... S: Not really. We were just discussing dhammas or Dhamma in general. When we think about 'others' and 'opposing views', it is just thinking. For those who have developed satipatthana, no more idea of internal and external realities, just presently arising dhammas. ... > > When I coin a phrase like 'mundane discussion' I'm talking as well about ordinary ways in which to deal with the ordinary aspects of discussing ideas on the list. I'm saying that while real pariyatti or whatever goes on whenever it does, there is still just discussing on the list - agreeing, disagreeing, clarifying, whatever, and, whether you focus on it or not, there *are* other views; there *are* other opinions. There seems to be no reason to pretend this doesn't exist. .... S: We *think* there are other views, other opinions, Phil, Nina and Sarah, but as this is a Dhamma discussion list, I find it helpful to reflect that there are just moments of seeing, hearing, thinking, likes, dislikes and our favourite 'projections' now. Metta Sarah ===== #119994 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:51 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: Oh, well I was just asking that Alex back up his point about Paa.li grammar with a bit of Paa.li grammar from a Paa.li grammar text. No big deal - just something one does in a discussion about something. I wanted to see what aspect of grammar he was referring to. The 'more than once' is simply because Alex makes this point about grammar 'more than once' (as you know). He disagrees with the point we've agreed to above. And has done repeatedly using this 'grammar' argument. He hasn't really shown the grammar, as it were. As we've been discussing, is this not just the give-and-take of discussion? Have I gone out of line to request some backing for his statement? .... S: Thx for explaining. I expect I was just being dense. No problem at all. Metta Sarah ===== #119995 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 9:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Lodewijk, Thank you! And you've been married almost twice as long! I think that most of us on the list reflect on the Greatest Blessings in the Mangala Sutta, Indeed we're all very fortunate here to associate with the wise, to be able to hear and consider the Teachings and so on. >Mangala Sutta: Blessings translated from the Pali by Narada Thera <...> "Many deities and men, yearning after good, have pondered on blessings. Pray, tell me the greatest blessing!" [The Buddha:] "Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor this is the greatest blessing. To reside in a suitable locality, to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course this is the greatest blessing. To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft, well-trained in discipline, and to be of good speech this is the greatest blessing. To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation this is the greatest blessing. To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct, to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action this is the greatest blessing. To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants, and to be steadfast in virtue this is the greatest blessing. To be respectful, humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions this is the greatest blessing. To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions this is the greatest blessing. Self-restraint, a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana this is the greatest blessing. A mind unruffled by the vagaries of fortune, from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, from fear liberated this is the greatest blessing. Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings." Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Our heartfelt congratulations. Next year is our diamond wedding > day, but we are never sure whether we are both alive by then. We keep > that in mind. Time flies. ====== #119996 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 9:49 pm Subject: A general apology (to Rob E, Howard, Alex, Chuck and others) philofillet Hi guys I'd like to more fully explain my rather rude behaviour recently. Well, not in too much detail, but it is not my nature (away from the internet) to avoid/shun/ignore/abuse people. Despite the frequency with which I post here, my time is limited (as is the case for everyone of course) and I (very much "i") want to use my time at DSG in the most efficient way. So for the time being at least I want to focus on what people whose understanding I share, more or less, have to say about Dhamma. So please forgive me if it seems I am shunning you, which is really not a comfortable thing for me to do. But I have to do it, there is just too much going on here for me to be involved in trying to persuade people that Abhidhamma is correct, it just seems absurd that guys on the internet think they understand better than Abhidhamma, I'm sorry. I hope we can meet some day away from the internet, when I am a lot less provocative and short-tempered. And who knows, it could be that in a few years I am back to believing in "using self to get rid of self," that is quite possible, I hope you will still speak to me if I want to discuss with you again in the future. In the meantime, please comment on anything I post, but best to address it to the group rather than me, thanks! Again, my apologies if my behaviour has caused any of you any distress. Making a nice clean and friendly cut is probably best! Happy trails, until we meet again. Phil #119997 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 9:58 pm Subject: Letters from Ivan 4: Phil gets some help (that felt on deaf ears) philofillet Hi all Here is an interesting letter in which Ivan offered me some help. I didn't understand it at the time, there is no telling when the understanding will click. > Dear Phil and all, > > These two seemed to be following the same train of thought, at times. I hope > you don't mind me bringing them together and making some comments? > > > ======================================================= > > Phil: You are putting the development of wisdom before everything else - I > no longer think it can work that way - and it's not the way Dhamma was > expounded by the Buddha. . . . Now I am developing wholesome habits of mind > that don't have anything to do with wisdom that penetrates dhammas to the > degree of seeing anatta. . . . there are situations that have arisen and are > continuing and there can be a dropping of them whether one understands > anatta or not. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > The ability to develop wholesome habits is a concept that almost all beings > share and one that all the major religions practice, however, the teaching > of the Buddha is much deeper and more profound than this, that is why he > hesitated to teach. Dhammas create concepts and attachment to them that > prevents the obvious from being seen, and it is only through the development > of wisdom that there can be any understanding of what is real. > > Conceptional wisdom helps us to have greater understanding of dhammas and > what the Buddha taught. The wisdom of satipatanna that penetrates the > dhammas (even when very week), clarifies that there are dhamma moments, > which is very different to the world of concepts that is void of them. At > the higher level of insight, wisdom knows the characteristic of a dhamma > moment, which has no self and does not last. > > Sotapannas have this insight wisdom and yet they still have attachment and > aversion. Sotapannas keep sila not because they think it is good to be > wholesome or because they know that akusala kamma leads to akusala vipaka. > They do so because they have the wisdom to know that the characteristics of > dhammas are without self and they fall away immediately. They do not steal > an item that they find attractive because they know that there is no item; > there are only moments of visible object, sound and touch etc. They know > that they cannot own a moment of seeing or any other dhamma moment that does > not stay. They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected > and no one who will gain by lying or killing. > > Sotapannas reach this enlightened state through the development of wisdom > not wholesome habits. They know that they can't stop akusala from arising > and they can't make kusala happen. It is wisdom only that prevents them from > ever again doing unwholesome deeds. > > It is only at this level of wisdom or higher that there is sila with no > falling back. We may be able to hold sila because of favourable conditions > or accumulations, but without insight wisdom that will all change. > Developing wisdom, which leads to insight, is the only way to deal with > those old akusala friends that keep dropping by to visit. > > Wisdom at the concept level can help us understand that there is no one who > chooses. At conception our body grows and has its physical features and > shortcomings without any input from us. . . no choice and we can't change > it. What senses there are and what impinges on them is what we get . . .no > choice and we can't change them. Mentality functions as it is meant to > function . . .no choice and we can't change it. What is experienced through > the senses and what concepts are created by mentality is what we get . . .no > choice and we can't change them. > > The sense doors are conditioned. What arises at the sense doors are > conditioned. The concepts that make up our language, beliefs, nationality, > family, this world and what we call our life are conditioned and none are of > our choosing and we can't change them. Accumulations and conditions > determined what concepts there are and what concepts there will be, not a > person who chooses. > > The aim is not to avoid or change what is conditioned, but to develop wisdom > that understands the true nature of what is conditioned. > > Conceptional wisdom is developed by reading, listening, discussing and > contemplating the Dhamma that points to what is real. Dhamma concepts help > us to have better understanding of reality, but ultimately, like all > concepts, they can hinder insight into what is real. > > > ======================================================= > ======================================================= > > Phil: I can do something about individual akusala situations, no matter how > deep the accumulations are. > > I am not content to have my mind incline in akusala directions. We can > choose to take action towards the inclining of our mind in more wholesome > directions. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > It is important that we have more understanding of dhammas that make up > experiences and concepts, and their impermanence, even at the conceptonal > level. When there is no understanding of dhammas then there will be the > thoughts "I am doing� and "I can control�. > > It may seem like we have control because we can decide to do something and > then do it. We may think that we choose to have sila or write to friends at > DSG or have a beer with our old drinking buddy, but those are only concepts > and not what is real. When we take that sip of beer there are countless > dhamma moments impinging on the senses as seeing, hearing, touching, > tasting, smelling, thinking and mental objects. We can't choose what dhammas > will arise, we can't choose what order they will arise in, we can't change > them to be something different to what they are, and we can't stop them from > arising or from falling away. > > If there is no understanding of this flux of dhammas then there will only be > concepts of a person who has control and does things. > > > ======================================================= > ======================================================= > > Phil: there are countless suttas in which one is encouraged to > among other similes - stamp out akusala proliferation. . .Nothing ambiguous > about that. > > There is no doubt whatsover that the Buddha encouraged us to stamp > out akusala proliferation (thoughts of ill-will, thoughts of sensual desire, > thoughts of cruelty.) No doubt for me at least. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > When the Buddha taught Dhamma it created the conditions for us to hear > Dhamma. Of those who hear Dhamma, some are interested in it and many are > not. And of those who are interested there are different degrees of > appreciation or understanding or effort to understand. How much one > appreciates Dhamma, gets involved in it, understands it or puts in the > effort to understand it will depend on conditions and accumulations. > > The Buddha spoke of `effort�, which can be a condition for there to be > effort. We may think that effort is important, but that does not mean that > there will be effort, it all depends on accumulations. There is a difference > between understanding that the Buddha's words may condition effort and > thinking that we must make an effort after hearing the Buddha's words. > > > ======================================================= > ======================================================= > > Phil: I don't believe that self clinging to desiring less akusala kamma > patha is that kind of dangerous wrong view. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > This lobha for less akusala is due to the dosa towards akusala behaviour. > Akusala can eliminate akusala is a dangerous wrong view. > > > ======================================================= > ======================================================= > > Phil: Certainly we will have to come to see that all conditioned dhammas are > anatta - but now I am more about "we start where we are, not where we want > to be." I think that *is* the way expounded by the Buddha. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > If we desire to have less akusala, then we are starting from where we want > to be, not from where we are. Understanding better the realities that are > now arising and falling away is starting from where we are. > > > ======================================================= > ======================================================= > > Phil: Am I saying "use self to get rid of self?" - you'll say I am. But I > think it's more like "not worrying about whether self is involved in > avoiding transgression" - not the same thing, I think. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > These are just concepts and views as to whether they have the same meaning > or not. Both do not point to the understanding of reality; the countless > dhammas, arising and falling away at the 6 doors, that are impermanent and > not in one's control. > > > ======================================================= > ======================================================= > > Phil: Nina asks Acharn Sujin about someone on the list who is concerned > about transgression, and Acharn Sujin says the akusala is already gone or > whatever. Terribly advice, in my opinion. There is a time for good Dhamma > friends to give direct, forthright advice. I think she really missed the > mark that time. . . > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > Acharn Sujin was pointing to the importance of knowing the moment and its > impermanence, rather than having concepts about transgressions that can > condition more akusala. > > > ======================================================= > ======================================================= > > Phil: but hey, it's just one question in one of many talks. She is obviously > wrong sometimes since she is not a sotapanna. (I assume.) > > Am I right in thinking that a sotapanna could never give faulty advice on > Dhamma points becasue wrong view has been eliminated? (Forget Acharn Sujin, > I mean in general.) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- > > All teachers and teachings may have faults or because of our ignorance be > misinterpreted, so we must investigate and only embrace that which we see > points to what is real. > > Matt > > _________________________________________________________________ > Advertisement: Looking for the latest range of toys available? Go to > www.tradingpost.com.au > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etradingpost%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fb\ rowse%2FHousehold%2FFamily%2FToys%2DGames%2Floc%5FlocRZSQregtAVSCdistRZSQAVSCsta\ teRZSQ9AVSCregRZSQ%5Fns%5FTrue%5Foff%5F0%5Fsqt%5F1%5Fsrchtype%5Fbrwse%5Fstpg%5F3\ %5F%3Freferrer%3Dplace2&_t=758874129&_r=emailtagline_nov&_m=EXT > #119998 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 10:23 pm Subject: Re: "There is so a self. It says so in the suttas." philofillet Hi Sarah > S: As you suggest, not so long ago you were also latching on to terms that might justify how there really must be a real *Phil*. May it be a condition for compassion and understanding for everyone else who does the same! May it indeed! Doesn't at the moment. > Quoting a couple of old posts on this, including my reply to your previous "phrase of the month, 'attabhavapatilabho'": Who knows, maybe I'll believe in the purifying power of self again someday. Quite possible. Phil #119999 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 11:13 pm Subject: Anniversaries Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Lodewijk and Sarah & Jon - In a message dated 11/7/2011 4:35:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Sarah, Op 7-nov-2011, om 9:59 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > p.s Nina, I was going to mention with regard to the Thai lunch, > that today is our 30th wedding anniversary. It goes past in a flash > as you always say.... N: Our heartfelt congratulations. Next year is our diamond wedding day, but we are never sure whether we are both alive by then. We keep that in mind. Time flies. Nina. ====================================== Nina, you first: May this next year be a very good one for you & Lodewijk, and may you then celebrate a lovely 60th!! And, Sarah, heartiest congratulations on yours and Jon's 30th anniversary. (I'm happy this got mentioned: I had your anniversary info down in my AOL address book, but information doesn't do one much good if one doesn't look at it!! LOL!) Celebrate well, Sarah!! With metta, Howard P. S. In August of 2012 Rita & I will celebrate our 45th anniversary, conditions allowing of course. ;-) Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous)