#120200 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:34 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, "...4. Although one's response to someone's words would ultimately depend on accumulations (as in just dhammas arsing and falling), that doesn't really negate the point that we all know each other well by now, as in, generally share the same conceptual interpretations - think about things in similar ways and about the same stories, so it's relatively easy to guess what Rob E's response would be to a certain sort of tone, etc. Sure, there's room for surprises, but usually it all goes as expected, and often the poster knows exactly what sort of reaction he will get." Scott: This one is rather vague. Why are you talking about 'expectations?' Why are you downplaying 'surprises?' Can you tie up your ideas here with some sort of concluding argument? I don't find much to work with minus that. Scott. #120201 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:45 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...5. The most important point imo - if RobE then reacts to your/mine post with dosa, well, dosa is real, it exists, it has a characteristic of suffering. We can say there's no RobE, we can say his dosa happened due to accumulations, but it is real, and it has a characteristic of suffering. So, there's suffering happening, and one of the conditions for it were your/mine words (or rather, yours/mine and his shared interpretation/story about them)." Scott: Ahh. Your guilt complex acting up. If I eat a steak but didn't kill the steer... You are still fixating on 'having an effect.' To be precise, you ought to be arguing about dosa arising in one's own 'stream' or 'continuum.' Remember: Mind your own cittas - the oft stated dictum. Yes, dosa is real. So? And your using a bit of a broad definition of 'suffering' aren't you? All conditioned dhammaa are unsatisfactory because they arise and fall away. I think you are talking about the concept of making someone feel bad or hurting someone's feelings or some such - that's the most global and superficial meaning of 'suffering.' I think you are too caught up in notions of deliberately practicing a form of writing with the hope of making others understand something. As I mentioned before - no go. I think you think too highly of the act of discussing Dhamma on a list like this - have a lot of unreasonable expectations about it. I think you imagine way too much when you think that a self is responsible for another self. And don't ask me about what sort of parent or psychotherapist I must be given that I say that because these things have nothing to do with discussing styles on this list. Scott. #120202 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:21 am Subject: The next Buddha Metteyya! bhikkhu5 Friends: <...> The next Buddha Metteyya : The Friendly One! More on this last perfectly self-enlightened one in this universe: Metteyya! The Coming Buddha: Ariya Metteyya. Sayagyi U Chit Tin: BPS Wheel 381/383 <...> He says: You can come as you like, but you pay as you go! On how to meet Buddha Metteyya in the future: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/How-2-Meet_Buddha_Metteyya.htm On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm and steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect and undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes and children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbâna: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study & fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The True Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #120203 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:59 pm Subject: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings sarahprocter... Dear Friends, During the discussion in Kaeng Krachan last year, there was a discussion about ignorance. Here are a few comments: KS: In the absolute sense as long as it's kusala or akusala it comes from avijja, ignorance. a little later... KS: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings. S: ...and generally when we're trying to work out what kind of citta, it's thinking about oneself. P: .. and is that still pariyatti? S: Not when it's thinking about oneself - "Did I have understanding or was this chanda?"- Just clinging to oneself. M: So what is the appropriate way to think about..... KS: Again, it means the 'I' is trying, the right thing is understanding of reality, no concern with the self or I. M: It seems that the self will always try and want... KS: It depends on right understanding. When right understanding understands more and more and better and better about realities, not many thoughts about oneself as usual. **** Later, she talks about understanding "it's only a dhamma" and "becoming accustomed to just a reality" and "eliminating the idea of self ...little by little." If there's thinking about "why I put the microphone down" and so on, it's just thinking, introspection. "Lobha leads to more lobha". "Understanding leads to detachment." **** Metta Sarah ===== #120204 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:27 pm Subject: Anniversaries Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Dear Ann & Howard, Many thanks for your kind wishes. Wishing you both many more years of good companionship as well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: >Congratulations to you and J. on your many years of respect and consideration for one another and for you sharing your interest in Dhamma with so many others. Very appropriate for you to include the Maha Mangala sutta in your response. .... S: I think it's helpful for us all to reflect on the blessings we have in this life, especially the opportunity to hear, reflect on and develop understanding of the Dhamma. Metta Sarah ===== #120205 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:53 pm Subject: Re: Sangiitisutta, Tens, sutta 1. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Connie & all, the ten dhammas that give protection (naatha-kara.na dhammaa) are very inspiring to reflect on. Thank you for continuing for the series and for all the additional commentary notes, Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Walshe > DN 33.3.3(1) 'Ten things that give protection (naatha-kara.na-dhammaa): > *1124 Here a monk (a) is moral, he lives restrained according to the > restraint of the discipline, persisting in right behaviour, seeing danger in > the slightest fault, he keeps to the rules of training; [iii 267] (b) he has > learnt much, and bears in mind and retains what he has learnt. In these > teachings, beautiful in the beginning, the middle and the ending, which in > spirit and in letter proclaim the absolutely perfected and purified holy > life, he is deeply learned, he remembers them, recites them, reflects on > them and penetrates them with vision; (c) he is a friend, associate and > intimate of good people; ..... S: I like the reminder that it is being a good friend, a kalya.namitta, that gives the protection. When there is good siila, when there is wise reflection and understanding of the teachings, when we offer good friendship, these dhammas give protection from harmful states. ... >(d) he is affable, endowed with gentleness and > patience, quick to grasp instruction; ..... S: relevant! Nina from the co.: "He is patient when spoken to with in a strong, harsh and rough way, he is not angry." ... >(e) whatever various jobs there are to > be done for his fellow-monks, he is skillful, not lax, using foresight in > carrying them out, and is good at doing and planning; (f) he loves the > Dhamma and delights in hearing it, he is especially fond of the advanced > doctrine and discipline (abhidhamme abhivanaye); *1125 [iii 268] ..... S: see Nina's notes on the Abhidhamma here, those who missed them #119295 ... (g) he is > content with any kind of requisites: robes, alms-food, lodging, medicines in > case of illness; .... S: Contentment with what we have too and in particular with what is experienced at this very moment. ... >(h) he ever strives to arouse energy, to get rid of > unwholesome states, to establish wholesome states, untiringly and > energetically striving to keep such good states and never shaking off the > burden; (i) he is mindful, with a great capacity for clearly recalling > things done and said long ago; *1126 (j) he is wise, with wise perception of > arising and passing away, that Ariyan perception that leads to the complete > destruction of suffering. ... Anumodana Metta Sarah ====== #120206 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Form (i.e the body)" -another incorrect BB note? sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Chew), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Thank you, perhaps writing "i.e rupas/materiality of the body" rather than "i.e the body" would have been better. But the spk reference about form being full of fissures, abode for many creatures is somewhat confusing, as is, in Vism (if I remember correctly) the space element being described as being a cavity, like found in a nostril, rather than space between the kalapas. Let me check that...no, just says "it is manifested as untouchedness, as the state of gaps and apertures." "Apertures" sounds more conventional than space between kalapas. .... S: There is also the space as in open spaces, like in a vacuum, an opening, in the sky. Two kinds of space (more in U.P.) Controversial. Chew, I know you disagree strongly with K.Sujin's and my comments in this regard - we can just a2d as Phil puts it (agree to disagree). In any case, delighted to see you post again - please share more of your studies. ... > > I've also always found the AN sutta that says there is no form more disturbing(?) to a man than the form of a woman, and vice versa. Hard to understand that meaning rupas rising and falling away again rather than a sexy body... .... S: the rupas taken to be the body of a woman. If there were no rupas experienced through the senses, there'd be no sanna marking them, no attachment, no proliferations to them... ... > > O w y h t. (only when you have time, i'll shorthand it from now on, though I know it goes without saying.) .... OK s y l (see u later) w y h t m Sarah ====== #120207 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:05 pm Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" sarahprocter... Dear Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear Friends, > > > S: If you look inthe Patisambhidamagga at the beginning, there are 201 dhammas to be "directly known" - these are all ultimate realities > > c: they are the following: > > 1-5. Materiality, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness. <...> thx so much for supplying the list - most helpful. In Hong Kong, in our tiny 'bed-sit', we only have a couple of books each, so appreciate it when others fill in the blanks .... Metta Sarah ==== #120208 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:14 pm Subject: My Two Cents Re: [dsg] Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Phil, Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > >P: Hmmmm, I wonder if there will be an end to all that refuting. > >=========================================== > > I wonder about that as well. Hopefully there will be end soon. Hopefully > this (discussing dhamma) stage will pass ASAP. .... S: Discussing dhamma is very important - if we don't discuss, we can just cling to our own ideas. As Pt pointed out, you have your own way of refuting and discussing:) ... > >P:If you are successful, it will fuel desire for more, and you will > >always find more and more points to refute. > >========================================== > > You could be right. Though I believe that if the key point is refuted, > then no need to worry about secondary minor details. > > > (I need to avoid switching on the computer.) .... S: Better to read, consider, discuss and refute than to follow wrong practices or ordain for all the wrong reasons (such as thinking it would be better for one's development of understanding or practice of the Teachings or to have more solitude.) All imo, of course! ... ========================== > Alex, I think there is no point in continuing making various sorts of > requests for conversation, refutations, etc when these overtures are > clearly unwelcome. My perspective: "Why persist? It's not good for you or them." .... S: If someone's getting irritated, maybe put it aside for a while or discuss with someone else, but it all comes back to our cittas and the intentions when we write. Sometimes the persistance when dissatisfied with the answers leads to the discussion of some helpful points. Alex, is the distinction between a concept of visible object and visible object which appears now clear? Metta Sarah ==== #120209 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:25 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Where does the Buddha make that distinction, between "mundane" jhana and the jhana of the NEP? Does he? If he does, I have another point to make on that point. :-))) If he doesn't, well... > > .... > > S: One snowy day, you might care to spend time in "Useful Posts" under "Jhanas - two meanings" and "Jhanas - mundane and supramundane". I think you'd enjoy it and you could share back here! > > Thank you, I'd like to see that. I'm kind of bad about looking things up .... S: Understood - no problem. Different inclinations, that's all. Pt and Connie are working on making them more user-friendly, but a long-term project. Simply, mundane jhana is the development of samatha to the degree of the jhanas. These were also developed before the Buddha taught the Dhamma. The supramundane jhanas refer to the level of concentration accompanying the lokuttara (supramundane) cittas at moments of enlightenment. Even for those who have never experienced mundane jhana, because of the object being nibbana, the strength with which the enlightment cittas experience this object is equivalent in strength to 1st jhana, appana samadhi. For those who experienced higher jhanas immediately before enlightenment and for whom enlightenment occurred with one of these as basis (i.e as object of the process of cittas immediately before enlightenment), the strength of the enlightenment cittas is equivalent to the strength of that mundane jhana just attained. ... >-- uh oh, more ammo for Scott -- .... S: :-)) Just different accumulations... .... >but I will try to do this, as it is very interesting and I'd like to see it. The way my brain works it's much easier to go down the line of current messages and click them off than to do a search. I enjoy it but find it more confusing, what with the amount of various open projects and to-do lists I have to handle inbetween. But no excuse, I'll get to it and report back! .... S: n h m b!! See if Phil works that one out.... Metta Sarah === #120210 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:00 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi RobK, > > pt: as far as i can tell from your posts, your reasoning seems to be modeled on a (kusala) instance of insight proper - there are no persons, there's only nama and rupa, etc, which then seems to conceptually translate into the attitude - there should only be concern with one's own cittas and cetasikas, whereas how another person responds to my words is due to his accumulations, not the actual words nor my intention when speaking them, etc. I think this is all mostly fine, but I think it is realistically relevant only at moments of insight. However, since such moments happen rarely, if ever, at all other times, the indicator of kusala (dana, sila and bhavana of non-vipassana kind) would be (when it's happening with concepts as objects of cittas, as in - thinking and stories about things) related to caring for another's welfare." > RK: Out of welfare for you and other readers I think it behoves me to point out that anatta is absolutely true even when there are no momnets of insight. > To suggest that at times when there is not direct insight into nama and rupa one should not be putting the theory of anatta to the fore is misguided and shows lack of confidence in Dhamma, probably rooted in wrong view. pt: Hm well that's a bit of a strawman, since I don't think that's what I was suggesting at all. I.e. wasn't addressing the issue of anatta, nor what is absolutely true, nor what to put to the fore (as if one could in the first place), etc. Perhaps it would become a little more clear if I reframe in terms of what's the object of citta at a time - during insight it's dhammas and characteristics, during other moments of (non-vipassana) kusala, it's concepts. So, thinking, and most of the time, when it's (non-vipassana) kusala, it's thinking about the welfare of others, rather than stories about "me" and "mine". So, one of the indicators that current engagement in a discussion is not really kusala could be that the thinking is not about the welfare of the other, but about me being right, better, etc, so stories about "me". Hope that explains it a bit better. > RK: I think you said you were so concerned by my post about the section on urination and defecation in the satipatthana sutta that from now you were taking the side of meditation? pt: Well, if I remember tight, I wasn't really concerned about the interpretation(s) of that bit from the satipatthana sutta but rather about your need to confront and prove others wrong instead of helping by guiding the discussion towards dhammas. As for me taking the side of meditation, well, I first need to stop being a "closet meditator" as KenH calls me, as in I have to get out of the closet and actually start meditating, which I won't have time till new year when I get a bit of vacation coming. Seriously though, I'm sorry, I'm really short on time and already have a list of something like 80 posts I need to respond to, and just can't find the time, so I'll first try to give a report on the discussion with Sarah and Jon, then respond to Scott's recent posts as the whole issue interests me, and then I'll hopefully get to discussing meditation with you and RobE, though of course, I'll be defending it in discussions with you, and refuting it in discussions with RobE, might be interesting, if I do find the time that is. > RK: Perhaps you believe that one should be able to sit down and bring up desirable states rooted in sati? pt: Hm, well, perhaps we can have a prelude - perhaps try and consider your question again. Essentially it is equivalent to someone saying that you believe that by reading texts you can make sati arise. Of course, such blanket presumption is a bit misinformed, just as the blanket presumption that meditator believes he can bring about sati by meditation. I think we need a more useful starter question if we want to "debunk" meditation practice in a helpful way - as in help towards understanding rather than towards a fight. I think Scott already had a few good starters already, perhaps see his posts for inspiration. I'd personally reframe your question into something like - what makes a state "desirable", what's the difference between "trying to" and "able to" bring up a state, and what makes it kusala and not akusala? Best wishes pt #120211 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:16 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...6. Nina and Sarah recently mentioned that among akusala factors, dosa is worse than lobha, because it hurts..." Scott: Again, you are referring to others, I imagine. Okay. Why are you - and I don't care, right, like in the good way of not caring - why are you telling me about how the dosa you think arises in me 'hurts others?' How is this different from, say, focusing on how this might be 'hurting me?' You know, accumulating and conditioning akusala vipaaka for me? You think you are wanting to protect others and yet you find yourself focusing on a certain tone you want on the list so that others are protected so that you can have an effect on them. Again, not that I care, but you aren't considering 'me' in the same way, are you? At least your discussion isn't directed to me in such a fashion. You want me to act differently so that others are not 'hurt.' It's still 'us and them' but whereas I might have a certain style when vigourously discussing views with the same ones you want to protect, you choose to single me out, make an example of me in the service of what? Making sure that those with different views than the view extant aren't alienated while alienating someone else? And again, my point would include not wanting to alienate someone else, since you have no control of this as a possible outcome of your words, especially no matter how well-intentioned. Well, we are all the same in many more ways than in the views we differ on and discuss. I'm not going to pretend to be holier-than-thou so that I can discuss my difference of views with, say, the nefarious 'meditators' any more than I actually care that these 'meditators' are among the least calm individuals one could meet *as they appear on this list* - always freaking out. I'm only going to limit my discussion to the appearance here, but not think too much about how they must be at home. So, when it's equal, poke and be poked. You ought to re-think your practice of selectively encouraging one person towards more kusala in discussion. You ought to re-consider the value in imputing this or that mental factor to words on a screen. I mean, yeah, if I'm like totally ranting and suggesting literally that a discussant go @*&! him or herself or whatever, then, yeah, of course, something ought to be said. My point is, and this has been said by the mods on more than one occasion - it's in the 'rules' as you say, at any rate; it's a well-known expectation that all meet and don't meet daily - that which you single me out to say applies to all. I'm not suggesting that I discuss with the intention of 'helping' or 'teaching' someone - if I do, I'm not aware of it and so I must not be. I think that would be 'practice' as I suggest to you. I am addressing the views of others as they appear to me and in a style that best fits the most stable compromise between ordinary akusala and an approximate accommodation of the 'rules.' The reality of different views is obvious. The so-called differences between persons - and in this case having to single me out because I 'have dosa' directed at a group that needs protecting not for themselves but for the purposes of preserving a collective object for specific didactic purposes - these 'differences' are imagined. Scott. #120212 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:18 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt pt: "...then respond to Scott's recent posts as the whole issue interests me..." Scott: OMG please take your time. I've not even got through your massive part 2 yet! Scott. #120213 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:22 am Subject: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, all - About this (IMO-excellent) project: It ain't underway! What I'm seeing is just more and more of the usual "I'm right, and you're wrong" ping-pong discussions, with no genuine studying and delving going on - and no learning underway. (Learning, BTW, doesn't require accepting and believing, but it does require coming to actually understand what is being taught!) It seems that there is more concern with winning disputes and "taking sides" than learning to see how Abhidhamma and details about the cetasikas in particular pertain to the actual experience of what occurs "in the moment," which is my understanding of the purpose of this project. Instead, it's just more of the same old nonsense going on! This is a great shame, as far as I'm concerned, a missed opportunity. I hope that it changes soon. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120214 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:33 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project scottduncan2 Howard, H: "...What I'm seeing is just more and more of the usual 'I'm right, and you're wrong' ping-pong discussions.." Scott: It's normal, Howard, don't you think? I mean for here. What's stopping you from starting to learn first - other than a need to chide people? Scott. #120215 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:29 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > Perhaps it would become a little more clear if I reframe in terms of what's the object of citta at a time - during insight it's dhammas and characteristics, during other moments of (non-vipassana) kusala, it's concepts. So, thinking, and most of the time, when it's (non-vipassana) kusala, it's thinking about the welfare of others, rather than stories about "me" and "mine". _______ dear Pt dont have time to study the rest of your long post. But just as a matter of interest, when someone is considering Dhamma- say about nama and rupa, or anatta, do you think it possible they have any kusala? or is kusala - except at moments of direct insight into paramattha dhammas - something that only arises when we are 'thinking about the welfare of others'? robert #120216 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:37 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? philofillet Hi pt > pt: "...6. Nina and Sarah recently mentioned that among akusala factors, dosa is worse than lobha, because it hurts. Hmmm, I think a commentary says when comparing the roots of dosa, lobha and moha that moha is the most dangerous one. I respect your efforts to discourage harsh speech, but it is beyond tge speakers's control, let alone tge most well-intentioned of 3rd parties. But thanj you for the effort! :) Re dosa, the fact that it hurts means we want to get rid of it, lobha lingers cuz we enjoy it more. To be honest, I usually get pleasure out of re-reading my sarcastic posts. Now $there$ is a good topic for the ahiri/anotoppa thread! And tgen concern for the well-being of the person I'm being sarcastic too may arise out of nowhere, very good example of that when I was writing to Alex last week, anatta, due to conditions, I am sure that your entreaties for gentler speech are in there somewhere, but surely a very weak voice amoung all the akusala factors. But, again, kudos for your effort. Metta, Phil #120217 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:42 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt,"...7. Of course, maybe my/your posting intention was generally kusala, and then the reader reacted with dosa, and well, that's life (accumulations). But, if the poster knew what sort of reaction he would get (strong dosa), still went ahead and posted without even trying to explain things in a way that could possibly avoid a reaction with dosa, and then kept doing it repeatedly, well, I find it hard to see how it can be done with kusala intention at all, and it rather seems like trying to upset the other person on purpose, or at least caring a little too much about being right, so attachment to 'me', so all this being akusala intention..." Scott: No one can 'know' what a response will be. I assume that we are all in the same boat, will mess around, will be laypersons - whatever - and carry on. If there is kusala arising it will condition the post naturally; if not I tweak it until it not only approximates a nod at the 'rules' but remains true to the natural akusala which, if I waited for it to be absent, would render me silent (no cheering allowed at this point). I don't need massage the way I appear on the list - like the 'mindfulness face' I mentioned - for any reason. Sue me - akusala is a reality. Your wish to have 'kusala intention' while posting, and to imagine that it can arise just because of the wish, amounts to a version of 'deliberate practice.' And, now, your telling me to have the same practice as you do. Scott. #120218 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:52 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...8. There's the sutta where the Buddha defines the circumstances in which he speaks to others - there being something like 5-6 parameters, from memory, like the right time, being agreeable to the other person, being kindly spoken, of benefit, etc. And basically all of the parameters have to be fulfilled, including the other person's frame of mind, otherwise the Buddha doesn't speak. Perhaps someone can locate this sutta..." Scott: I'll wait until you do, and discuss it at that point. I don't know yet what you intend to impute from the sutta, so there isn't anything to respond to here. If you are suggesting that one doesn't speak until one is like the Buddha, well, that would shut down the whole list right now wouldn't it? So, yeah, that's a bit silly. I think the whole 'be like Buddha' is on par with 'What would Jesus do?' and deserves to chucked in a hole somewhere. Scott. #120219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nilovg Hi Howard, Op 10-nov-2011, om 14:22 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > About this (IMO-excellent) project: It ain't underway! ------- N: Sarah and I gave some examples of hiri and ottappa in daily life. Are the some points not clear? What is not clear should be discussed and we can try to clarify it. I welcome the opportunity. Nina. #120220 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 11/10/2011 8:33:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard, H: "...What I'm seeing is just more and more of the usual 'I'm right, and you're wrong' ping-pong discussions.." Scott: It's normal, Howard, don't you think? I mean for here. What's stopping you from starting to learn first - other than a need to chide people? -------------------------------------------- I am not good at learning this particular material from texts. As for chiding people, that isn't my purpose, it isn't my aim, and as best as I can ascertain, it isn't my need. I just hope that things will work out differently. If not, then not. ------------------------------------------------ Scott. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120221 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:02 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...Anyway, I'm not saying that at times when you write there's no kusala and no caring for another's welfare. That only panna will know. But, the way you usually present your arguments to those who disagree with you, well they seem confrontational and hostile and more concerned with you feeling good about yourself, being right, etc, so I see little care for others there, as in just more attachment to 'me' and 'mine'. But I don't really know of course, in the same way like I don't really know whether RobE's intention to meditate is a/kusala, but it seems it often is akusala from reading his posts." Scott: Look, pt. It's often akusala for most of us. It's just more attachment to me and mine for most of us. Is it hostile, do you think, for me to parsimoniously suggest that you get off your high horse? Would it be any more or less hostile if the wording was more like, 'Hmm. I'm not sure whether this is true or not but it seems to me as if you are taking a bit of the high road here on this one, pt?' You wouldn't know where that second version was coming from. That little, 'hmm,' by the way, is yours - you've this idiosyncratic way of starting to disagree with someone. What does this belie, I ask rhetorically? And it doesn't matter. Whew. Scott. #120222 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project scottduncan2 Howard, H: "...As for chiding people, that isn't my purpose, it isn't my aim, and as best as I can ascertain, it isn't my need. I just hope that things will work out differently. If not, then not." Scott: I just say start discussing then. I've been on this same topic with pt for like hours and hours and hours. Don't you start with the telling others how to act as well. I guarantee that Dieter and you are going to disagree at some point with the whole mental factor thing, even discussed as 'experience' - and so what? You want to learn that way, so start. I'm chiding you. What? Scott. #120223 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/10/2011 8:58:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 10-nov-2011, om 14:22 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > About this (IMO-excellent) project: It ain't underway! ------- N: Sarah and I gave some examples of hiri and ottappa in daily life. Are the some points not clear? What is not clear should be discussed and we can try to clarify it. I welcome the opportunity. ------------------------------------------------ I found it clear. These cetasikas seem reasonably understandable to me. One question that I do have is with regard to ottappa being the fear of consequences of akusala. What I wonder is whether this includes consequences only for oneself or more generally. (Whether metta is involved.) ------------------------------------------------ Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nilovg Hi Howard, Op 10-nov-2011, om 15:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I found it clear. These cetasikas seem reasonably understandable to > me. One question that I do have is with regard to ottappa being the > fear of > consequences of akusala. What I wonder is whether this includes > consequences > only for oneself or more generally. (Whether metta is involved.) ------ N: Akusala kamma will produce akusala vipaaka, an unhappy result. In the form of an unhappy rebirth or as the experience of unpleasant objects through the senses. When one is careless one may not see that akusala produces an unhappy result. One thinks of oneself and wants to enjoy oneself, even doing bad deeds in order to obtain enjoyable things. No hiri and ottappa. Tiika to (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 160: 'ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilements; it is like a pig that does not abhor dung. Anottappa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself.' -------- Nina. #120225 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/10/2011 9:23:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 10-nov-2011, om 15:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I found it clear. These cetasikas seem reasonably understandable to > me. One question that I do have is with regard to ottappa being the > fear of > consequences of akusala. What I wonder is whether this includes > consequences > only for oneself or more generally. (Whether metta is involved.) ------ N: Akusala kamma will produce akusala vipaaka, an unhappy result. In the form of an unhappy rebirth or as the experience of unpleasant objects through the senses. When one is careless one may not see that akusala produces an unhappy result. One thinks of oneself and wants to enjoy oneself, even doing bad deeds in order to obtain enjoyable things. No hiri and ottappa. Tiika to (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 160: 'ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilements; it is like a pig that does not abhor dung. Anottappa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself.' -------- Nina. ================================== Thank you for this quick and clear answer. As I understand it, then, ottappa, is the fear of hurting oneself by acting badly (often in the pursuit of pleasant experience). That's quite clear. I consider the hesitancy to act badly due to the metta-based fear of harming others to be an even higher function. This, I presume, is a different cetasika. Am I correct?) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120226 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Form (i.e the body)" -another incorrect BB note? philofillet Hi Sarah > S: There is also the space as in open spaces, like in a vacuum, an opening, in the sky. Two kinds of space (more in U.P.) Controversial. Thanks, everything is in there! > > I've also always found the AN sutta that says there is no form more disturbing(?) to a man than the form of a woman, and vice versa. Hard to understand that meaning rupas rising and falling away again rather than a sexy body... > .... > S: the rupas taken to be the body of a woman. If there were no rupas experienced through the senses, there'd be no sanna marking them, no attachment, no proliferations to them... Ph: Without visible object etc no idea of people and things, as I noted the other day. Phil #120227 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 9-nov-2011, om 18:49 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: ahirika and anottappa is the negative of hirika and ottappa , > that means both are absent , doesn't it? > Wouldn't you agree that it is the lack of the former ,which offers > potential akusala kamma , not the arising of the latter ? ------ N: Ahirika and anottappa are akusala cetasikas that perform their functions, they are quite active!Together with other akusala cetasikas they can lead to akusala kamma. They do not operate alone, they are accompanied by other akusala cetasikas. -------- > > > N:We are most of the time lost in stories about people and > situations, and it is good to know with what types of cittas we are > thinking. > > D: I had in mind to ask :in which way do you distinguish the type > of cittas in respect to cetasikas , but am a bit afraid that may lead > to a new topic (?) -------- N: it is good to see connections, between citta and cetasikas and between cetasikas. Citta experiences an object and it is the leader in experiencing an object. It is accompanied by cetasikas in various combinations. Akusala cetasikas condition citta to be akusala. Citta and accompanying cetasikas condition one another. --------- > > > D: well, the state of mourning (in German we speak of Trauerarbeit) > means suffering . Which cetasika would that be? > (Unpleasant) feeling , as one of the 7 universals? -------- N: When we say that we are suffering because of mourning, actually, the citta is rooted in aversion, dosa, and this is accompanied by unhappy feeling. Since that citta is akusala citta it is also accompanied by ahirika and anottappa. In society it is considered to be good and noble to mourn, it seems heartless not to mourn. But when we closely consider the citta, the reality is quite different. All the same, we have conditions to mourn the dead, but it is still beneficial to know the cittas that arise as they really are. ------- Nina. > > #120228 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:54 am Subject: Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings philofillet Hi Sarah > S: ...and generally when we're trying to work out what kind of citta, it's thinking about oneself. > > P: .. and is that still pariyatti? > > S: Not when it's thinking about oneself - "Did I have understanding or was this chanda?"- Just clinging to oneself. Ph: I heard an interesting thing today, someone had been moved to tears at one of the holy places, and asked A.Sujin about it, we know that crying and laughing must be akusala, but considering it was at a holy place, perhaps piti, or some kusala factory, or... And A.S explained something that I am hearing a lot and understanding a bit better these days, that as long as there is not understanding of the realities involved, all the speculation about situations can't be answered, so is pretty much useless to ponder on. To the realities! She didn't mention clinging to oneself at this point, rather emphasized the lack of understanding of realities. (Of course there would be clinging to self.) > M: So what is the appropriate way to think about..... > > KS: Again, it means the 'I' is trying, the right thing is understanding of reality, no concern with the self or I. > M: It seems that the self will always try and want... > > KS: It depends on right understanding. When right understanding understands more and more and better and better about realities, not many thoughts about oneself as usual. Ph: "We don't really understand concepts until we understand realities" or something like that, I heard. I think my trip to KK I was completely interested in situations, trying to work out their meaning. Well, not completely. I feel understanding has developed, something has clicked since then. Another situation thought about, oblivious of the realities. > Later, she talks about understanding "it's only a dhamma" and "becoming accustomed to just a reality" and "eliminating the idea of self ...little by little." > > > If there's thinking about "why I put the microphone down" and so on, it's just thinking, introspection. "Lobha leads to more lobha". "Understanding leads to detachment." Ph: Now what kind of a dum-dum would ask "why did I put the microphone down!?! sheeesh. (haha, it was me.) Fair question though, interesting to think about what motivate actions, but no way to be answered. Still, thinking about what dhammas are at work is at least turning the mind in the general direction of anattaness, an appreciation that there is nothing but dhammas performing functions, due to conditions, beyond control. Here we say "just a lot of thinking", but still, something to be grateful for. Phil #120229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nilovg Hi Howard, Op 10-nov-2011, om 15:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I consider the hesitancy to act badly due to the metta-based fear of > harming others to be an even higher function. This, I presume, is a > different cetasika. Am I correct?) ------ N: Hiri and ottappa arise together and it is hard to separate them. Ottappa seems to pertain more to our fellowmen. When there is mettaa one will not transgress siila and mettaa is surely accompanied by hiri and ottappa. I think this is a good point you make. The same Tiika text states: The proximate cause of ottappa is respect for others, it has an external origin and the world is the predominant influence. The proximate causes of ahirika and anottappa are lack of self- respect and lack of respect for others [respectively]. ------- Nina. #120230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Scott, Op 9-nov-2011, om 16:37 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > > N: "Katara: which one (of the... a certain number) my Pali > dictionary states. Mother, which one of the developments of > satipa.t.thaana do you apply yourself to? That number would be: > which among the four... Satipa.t.thaanabhaavana would stand for the > applications of mindfulness, I think." > > Scott: Thanks. 'Satipa.t.thaana' is 'applications of mindfulness,' > as I understand it. 'Bhaavanaa' is development. What is the meaning > of this compound - satipa.t.thaanabhaavana? Is this translated in a > conventional way - that is, using conventional language to convey > ultimate terms? > ------ N: Thank you for drawing my attention to satipa.t.thaanabhaavana. This reminds us of two meanings of sati (out of three): sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana and the objects of satipa.t.thaana, contained in the four applications of mindfulness, which are actually all naama and ruupa under different aspects, as they occur in daily life. The third meaning is the way Buddhas go: not being depressed when people do not listen, nor delighted when they do listen, but having perfect equanimity towards their reactions. Satipa.t.thaanabhaavana, satipa.t.thaana is to be developed, even for those who, as you rightly pointed out, had developed the indriyas so that these had become powers and sati could arise at any time, in any situation. The word katara, points to: which of the four applications. Anyway, each one includes any naama or ruupa that appears now. This reminds me, there can be bhavana now while reading the numerous posts and thinking of answers. Nina. #120231 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:36 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn scott, > > c: "conceit and (self-)justification in following lobha's lead." > > Scott: Like in discussions on the list and like that? > Sure, we do have a little more time off-list to compose ourselves before sending a frivolous response anyway, but lobha and laughter hang together pretty much anywhere - somanassa sahagata anyway. If I know I'm following lobha, there are ahirika and anottappa justifying it for me... don't worry, be happy, the fall-out won't touch you. I might try to justify my 'good humour' but I don't see a lot of smiley faces and such when I read the texts... more likely there's some sort of long-suffering ghoulie when an arahant smiles. Like that. just another crazed puppet laughing in the dark, connie #120232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Rob E Op 6-nov-2011, om 7:19 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > One person may be inclined to be > > aware of subjects of the first application but this does not mean > > that only ruupa is known, not naama. Both ruupa and naama have to be > > understood. How could one understand what ruupa is, without > > understanding naama? > > --------- > > Still, it seems like the people in that town would recognize what > was appropriate for them to understand, and would pursue it as a > regular part of their lives. Doesn't that seem to be the case? I > would agree with you, if you are saying that it would be a mistake > to think that everyone should practice the same thing, or that a > person could just grab an application of satipatthana out of a hat > and determine to practice it regardless of conditions. > ------ N: Yes, depending on their accumulated inclinations. > > > > > R: > > N: Sati can be accumulated so that it arises again, but > completely so > > because of its own conditions. There is no person who 'consciously' > > cultivates it. When sati arises it arises, nobody there to > manipulate > > it, as you will agree. > > ------- > > R:I guess that is before it accumulates, and becomes 'one's > nature,' but obviously that is not going to happen by trying hard, > but by development over time. > ------ N: Yes. Cittas with sati arise and then fall away, they cannot stay. But sati is not lost, it is accumulated in the citta and this can condition the arising again of sati. In this way it develops. Over time, yes, it is said this is 'ciira kala bhaavanaa', a development that takes a long time. Patience and perseverance are needed. Also at this moment: to be aware of any reality presenting itself, so that pa~n~naa can investigate its true nature: it is only a dhamma. No matter it is pleasant or unpleasant, kusala or akusala, only a dhamma. That is development. ------- Nina. #120233 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/10/2011 10:08:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 10-nov-2011, om 15:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I consider the hesitancy to act badly due to the metta-based fear of > harming others to be an even higher function. This, I presume, is a > different cetasika. Am I correct?) ------ N: Hiri and ottappa arise together and it is hard to separate them. --------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, it is. It does seem to me that hiri carries the sense of "looking back" (or at the present) with conscience - possibly with regret for past action, whereas ottappa "looks forward" with fear of consequences. --------------------------------------------- Ottappa seems to pertain more to our fellowmen. When there is mettaa one will not transgress siila and mettaa is surely accompanied by hiri and ottappa. I think this is a good point you make. The same Tiika text states: The proximate cause of ottappa is respect for others, it has an external origin and the world is the predominant influence. ------------------------------------------- HCW: Ahh! Good!! :-) ------------------------------------------- The proximate causes of ahirika and anottappa are lack of self- respect and lack of respect for others [respectively]. ------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes. Very clear! Both what you said above and immediately above accord with my experience and they make very good sense to me. ----------------------------------------- ------- Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120234 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Dear Nina, (Rob E.), N: "...This reminds us of two meanings of sati (out of three...Satipa.t.thaanabhaavana, satipa.t.thaana is to be developed, even for those who, as you rightly pointed out, had developed the indriyas so that these had become powers and sati could arise at any time..." Scott: Thanks. And to address the point of contention, do you think that the women noted in the commentary were referring to what is now in modern parlance (and misconception) 'their practice' - as in something they did and can do more of 'at will' to make sati a power - or was the reference to the natural way of it? Rob E. is suggesting the former, I think erroneously. Scott. #120235 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Dear Nina, (Rob E.), R: "...Still, it seems like the people in that town would recognize what was appropriate for them to understand, and would pursue it as a regular part of their lives. Doesn't that seem to be the case? I would agree with you, if you are saying that it would be a mistake to think that everyone should practice the same thing, or that a person could just grab an application of satipatthana out of a hat and determine to practice it regardless of conditions..." N: "Yes, depending on their accumulated inclinations." Scott: What are you saying 'yes' to, in Rob E.'s statement, Nina? Is it clear what 'pursue it as a regular part of their lives' means, for example? Or the implication that while not 'everyone should practice the same thing' there is still 'practice.' Do you think that there is such a thing as a deliberate pursuit or practice of 'mindfulness?' Is this what the commentary is showing the reader? Are you affirming that, given the appropriate set of 'accumulated tendencies' there could be the *deliberate practice of mindfulness*? Scott. #120236 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:32 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 connie, c: "...I might try to justify my 'good humour' but I don't see a lot of smiley faces and such when I read the texts... more likely there's some sort of long-suffering ghoulie when an arahant smiles..." Scott: You mean something like... [:---(,)] ? And, yeah, why aren't we on a rampage against joking around too? I mean it's akusala too and encourages more akusala in others. You make an entirely sober point of it. Scott. #120237 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nichiconn hi, Howard, > ------ > N: Hiri and ottappa arise together and it is hard to separate them. > --------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Yes, it is. It does seem to me that hiri carries the sense of "looking > back" (or at the present) with conscience - possibly with regret for past > action, whereas ottappa "looks forward" with fear of consequences. > --------------------------------------------- > c: except that regret is unwholesome & a single citta can't be a mixed type. maybe more of a reminder not to fall into a state of regret but to just do our best since we can't change the past anyway. connie #120238 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:58 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, Rob K., pt"...I think Scott already had a few good starters already, perhaps see his posts for inspiration. I'd personally reframe your question into something like - what makes a state 'desirable', what's the difference between 'trying to' and 'able to' bring up a state, and what makes it kusala and not akusala?" Scott: Don't you drag me into this, Mister. You are doing it again. I hardly think it's cool to suggest to Rob K. that he 'see [my] posts for inspiration.' I mean, seriously. Now stop it. I'm certainly not trying to serve as 'inspiration' for anyone. That, apparently, is your gig. And I don't need any praise myself for the tone of my posts to you. Get a dog if what you want to do is praise what you think is good behaviour. Woof woof. And, while I'm at it, what's with the 'reframing' stuff? Rob K. was clear in his own question worded as he saw fit. Are you an editor as well? I happened to agree with Rob K., by the way, as you may read eventually, when he also took you to task for you misunderstanding of anatta - i.e. that it seems to only apply to certain moments and not others. I wonder if you are some sort of 'closet meditator' after all. Ha ha. Scott. #120239 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:51 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nichiconn Hi again, Howard, Just thought I'd throw out what the Dhammasangani & it's Commentary have to say. (Khine) Dhs: 30. What at that time is the power of being ashamed (to do evil)? That which at that time is being ashamed to do deeds the evilnes of which ought to cause shame, being ashamed to commit evil demeritorious deeds -- this at that time is the power of being ashamed (to do evil). 31. What at that time is the power of fear (to do evil)? That which at that time is being afraid to do deeds the evilness of which ought to arouse fear, being afraid to commit evil demeritorious deeds -- this at that time is the power of fear (to do evil). Expositor, p198: In the exposition of the 'strength' called 'sense of shame' {Dhs 30}, 'that which on that occasion' means 'by which state at the time (of the fisrt type of moral consciousness).' Or, by change of gender (masculine for neuter), 'that state which arises at the time (of the first main type of moral consciousness)' -- thus should the meaning be known. 'Hiriyitabbena' is the instrumentive case used in the sense of employment. The meaning is: - it abominates, loathes misconduct of body and other immoral state fit to be abominated. 'Of bad (states)' means of low (states). 'Of immoral states' means of states not produced by understanding (ie, produced by ignorance); 'sampattiyaa' is also in the instrumentive case in the sense of employment {Or, of cause or condition - Tika}. The meaning is: - it abominates, loathes the attainment of, the endowment with these immoral states. In the exposition of the strength called 'fear of blame,' {Dhs 31} this is in the instrumentive case in the sense of root-condition. [One fears] {Consequences - eg, purgatory - Tika} on account of misconduct in deed, word, or thought, where is fear of blame as root-condition, and which is fit to be feared. On account of the attainment of bad states of the kinds stated, and having fear of blame as root-condition - such is the meaning. ---------------- >> It does seem to me that hiri carries the sense of "looking back" (or at the present) with conscience - possibly with regret for past action, whereas ottappa "looks forward" with fear of consequences. > > --------------------------------------------- > c: except that regret is unwholesome & a single citta can't be a mixed type. maybe more of a reminder not to fall into a state of regret but to just do our best since we can't change the past anyway. c: like 'abominates' and 'loathes' aren't generally considered to be akusala? or for that matter, 'fear'? Your 'looking forward' (to hell!) is there, though. connie #120240 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:55 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Dear Nina, all, you wrote: Dear Dieter, Op 9-nov-2011, om 18:49 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: ahirika and anottappa is the negative of hirika and ottappa , > that means both are absent , doesn't it? > Wouldn't you agree that it is the lack of the former ,which offers > potential akusala kamma , not the arising of the latter ? ------ N: Ahirika and anottappa are akusala cetasikas that perform their functions, they are quite active!Together with other akusala cetasikas they can lead to akusala kamma. They do not operate alone, they are accompanied by other akusala cetasikas. -------- D: yes, I should have thought that all cetasikas arise and cease (acc. to condition). My problem to see a lack of something, defined as absent to arise , is solved when I replace 'ahirika ' e.g. by 'indecency ' (Oxf.Advanced Dictionary Amercian [uncountable] "behavior that is thought to be morally or sexually offensive " and 'anottoppa ' by ' (as) bold as brass(informal) without showing any respect, shame, or fear' You mentioned (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 160: 'ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilements; it is like a pig that does not abhor dung. Anottappa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself.' I like too 'Acariya Buddhaghosa illustrates the difference between the two with the simile of an iron rod smeared with excrement at one end and heated to a glow at the other end: hiri is like one's disgust at grabbing the rod in the place where it is smeared with excrement, ottappa is like one's fear of grabbing it in the place where it is red hot' ( quoted by Bhikkhu Bodhi) In an German dictionary of synonyms I found under 'shameless ' (schamlos) 149 entries , which describes the wide scope of context . Measurement of kusala and akusala states/actions is the 10fold Kamma Patha , isn't it? As an example in our daily life , we may encounter ahirika and and anottappa in rude writings (wrong speech) , posted on the list , as a type of akusala kamma (> D: I had in mind to ask :in which way do you distinguish the type > of cittas in respect to cetasikas , but am a bit afraid that may lead > to a new topic (?) -------- N: it is good to see connections, between citta and cetasikas and between cetasikas. Citta experiences an object and it is the leader in experiencing an object. It is accompanied by cetasikas in various combinations. Akusala cetasikas condition citta to be akusala. Citta and accompanying cetasikas condition one another. D: do you agree to define citta by being aware of the momentary state of consciousness in respect to the objects of the 6 senses? The connection insofar that the sixth sense corresponding with cetasika by 'knowing' the mental and the 5 physical objects? with Metta Dieter #120241 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 11/10/2011 11:50:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: hi, Howard, > ------ > N: Hiri and ottappa arise together and it is hard to separate them. > --------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Yes, it is. It does seem to me that hiri carries the sense of "looking > back" (or at the present) with conscience - possibly with regret for past > action, whereas ottappa "looks forward" with fear of consequences. > --------------------------------------------- > c: except that regret is unwholesome & a single citta can't be a mixed type. maybe more of a reminder not to fall into a state of regret but to just do our best since we can't change the past anyway. connie ============================== I find it difficult to view regretting unwholesome action as itself unwholesome. Quite the opposite, in fact. (I DO distinguish between regret and remorse, the latter one which I do consider unwholesome. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120242 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - Thanks for the following. I have a hard time getting much out of it, though. (I might require a subsubsubsubc0mmentary! LOL!) With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/10/2011 12:51:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi again, Howard, Just thought I'd throw out what the Dhammasangani & it's Commentary have to say. c: like 'abominates' and 'loathes' aren't generally considered to be akusala? or for that matter, 'fear'? Your 'looking forward' (to hell!) is there, though. --------------------------------------------- :-) -------------------------------------------- connie =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120243 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:26 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Hi Howard, all, you wrote: About this (IMO-excellent) project: It ain't underway! What I'm seeing is just more and more of the usual "I'm right, and you're wrong" ping-pong discussions, with no genuine studying and delving going on - and no learning underway. D: I agree ..let us hope that are starting difficulties. H: (Learning, BTW, doesn't require accepting and believing, but it does require coming to actually understand what is being taught!) D: would you accept 'Learning, does require coming to actually understand what is being taught! Followed by examination like - as the Buddha put it - a goldsmith would prove the genuity of gold and silver, before accepting and believing it ? H: It seems that there is more concern with winning disputes and "taking sides" than learning to see how Abhidhamma and details about the cetasikas in particular pertain to the actual experience of what occurs "in the moment," which is my understanding of the purpose of this project. D: I like to add (of what occurs) 'and what doesn't occur '.. with Metta Dieter #120244 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project scottduncan2 connie, H: "...I have a hard time getting much out of it, though. (I might require a subsubsubsubc0mmentary! LOL!)" Scott: Um. Yeah. Scott. #120245 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 11/10/2011 1:26:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, all, you wrote: About this (IMO-excellent) project: It ain't underway! What I'm seeing is just more and more of the usual "I'm right, and you're wrong" ping-pong discussions, with no genuine studying and delving going on - and no learning underway. D: I agree ..let us hope that are starting difficulties. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Happily, due mainly to Nina, Sarah, and Connie, it now seems to be underway! :-) ------------------------------------------------- H: (Learning, BTW, doesn't require accepting and believing, but it does require coming to actually understand what is being taught!) D: would you accept 'Learning, does require coming to actually understand what is being taught! Followed by examination like - as the Buddha put it - a goldsmith would prove the genuity of gold and silver, before accepting and believing it ? ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Certainly careful examination and "testing" makes sense for establishing belief, but I think it's better to not worry very much about belief, and just put that "on the back burner". ------------------------------------------------ H: It seems that there is more concern with winning disputes and "taking sides" than learning to see how Abhidhamma and details about the cetasikas in particular pertain to the actual experience of what occurs "in the moment," which is my understanding of the purpose of this project. D: I like to add (of what occurs) 'and what doesn't occur '.. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: As I view the matter, whatever happens, whenever it happens, is always in the midst of doing so "at the moment". Much of what we consider, perhaps all, are processes that occur over a span of time, but they can be directly observed, for worldlings at least, only "in the moment". To grasp an entire process, and not just a momentary snapshot, requires thinking for worldlings (though maybe for some ariyans, supermundane wisdom will do the job in a direct fashion, time not being an ultimate reality.) --------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120246 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Connie) - In a message dated 11/10/2011 1:32:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: connie, H: "...I have a hard time getting much out of it, though. (I might require a subsubsubsubc0mmentary! LOL!)" Scott: Um. Yeah. ------------------------------------- HCW: ??? -------------------------------------- Scott. ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120247 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:27 am Subject: Re: Strawman truth_aerator Scott, >A:"Free will does not need to exist in order for meditation to >occur. Wise meditator does not believe in free will. So another >straw man here. 'No control' needs to be understood and realized." > >Scott: Scarecrow, Alex. >================================= Prove it, or it would be just your unjustified opinion. >Scott: So anyway, when you wisely decide to meditate and wisely sit >on your meditation cushion in your wise meditation posture and >wisely choose your meditation subject and wisely meditate - you >aren't controlling anything. It's all by conditions. The main one >being your amazingly wise decision to meditate - after that, since >the initial condition is automatically correct, the rest just follow >suit and voila - hello Nirvana! >========================================================= It all happens due to impersonal causes and conditions despite "Alex". Alex is not a factor, Alex is an obstacle to meditation. Whenever Alex tries to *do* something the meditation is no longer meditation but delusion and restlessness. With best wishes, Alex only as concept. #120248 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:28 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Connie, you wrote: ( > D: ahirika and anottappa is the negative of hirika and ottappa , that means both are absent , doesn't it?) c: If you look back at your original overview, they (moral shame and dread/fear of doing wrong) are part of the 19 universal beauties group - D: you are right , Connie , pls compare with my message to Nina. C:so not just those 2, but that whole group will always arise together. If there is the lack of shame and dread, then delusion and restlessness must come into play. Plus, of course, at least 7 of the 13 ethically variable group & then however many other unwholesomes there happen to be. D: not clear to me why the whole group will always arise together ? How then to distinguish the bunch of cetasikas? C:I'm somewhat curious as to why you decided to take things out of order. It's not a big deal. Sure enough, the different books will deal with theses same things in different orders so it's not like there's a right and wrong to it... just me assuming your list represented an outlined plan of "attack". D: attack? Did you get such impression from my previous postings?..and which ? I stumbled upon the terms ahirika and anottappa recently , together with the recognition of 'camps ' who are not on the 'same pages' , 'dance to different music ', 'students of different universities' , I thought a common platform could be the discussion of cetasikas . Describing the formation of mental phenomena ,one by one or in pairs, as taught by Abhidhamma and seeking the context in daily life, appeared to me a fitting trial to avoid the 'I am right and you are wrong ' style of discussion . (D: well, the state of mourning (in German we speak of Trauerarbeit) means suffering . Which cetasika would that be? (Unpleasant) feeling , as one of the 7 universals? C: Dosa if i had to just pick one. D:not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compassion? C:'Suffering' is another example of different approaches. In general, dukkha is pretty much any and all conditioned things, but when it is 'the truth of suffering', it is only bodily and mental painful feeling. Only 5 feelings out of everything possible? I guess this is partly where the "(existential) stress" translation comes from. D: Quite difficult to find a cover for feelings besides bodily and/or mental pleasant /unpleasent /indifferent feelings , isn't it? ( I feel reminded on 'a rose is a rose, is a rose '..) Useful to keep in mind that indifferent feeling can refer to equanimity (wholesome) or disregard for the wellbeing of oneself or others. with Metta Dieter #120249 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:06 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: (D: would you accept 'Learning, does require coming to actually understand what is being taught! Followed by examination like - as the Buddha put it - a goldsmith would prove the genuity of gold and silver, before accepting and believing it ?) ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Certainly careful examination and "testing" makes sense for establishing belief, but I think it's better to not worry very much about belief, and just put that "on the back burner". ------------------------------------------------ D: not so sure whether a 'back burner ' works for me ..;-) I love the spirit of freedom of the Buddha Dhamma as expressed by the Mahaparinibbana Sutta ("therefore, Ananda, be islands (a light ) unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island(light), the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge"and by the Kalama Sutta. Perhaps we can settle with a candle holder ? ;-) (D: I like to add (of what occurs) 'and what doesn't occur '..) ------------------------------------------------ HCW: As I view the matter, whatever happens, whenever it happens, is always in the midst of doing so "at the moment". Much of what we consider, perhaps all, are processes that occur over a span of time, but they can be directly observed, for worldlings at least, only "in the moment". To grasp an entire process, and not just a momentary snapshot, requires thinking for worldlings (though maybe for some ariyans, supermundane wisdom will do the job in a direct fashion, time not being an ultimate reality.) --------------------------------------------------- D: I think about sati , see Maha Satipatthana Sutta, e.g. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows[49] the mind accompanied by passion,[50] as 'Mind with passion'; he knows the mind unaccompanied by passion, as 'Mind without passion'; he also knows the mind accompanied by anger,[51] as 'Mind with anger'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by anger, as 'Mind without anger'; he also knows the mind accompanied by bewilderment,[52] as 'Mind with bewilderment'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by bewilderment, as 'Mind without bewilderment'; he also knows the indolent state of mind,[53] as 'Indolent state of mind'; he also knows the distracted state of mind,[54] as 'Distracted state of mind'; he also knows the developed state of mind,[55] as 'Developed state of mind'; he also knows the undeveloped state of mind,[56] as 'Undeveloped state of mind': he also knows the inferior state of mind, as 'Inferior state of mind'; he also knows the superior state of mind,[57] as 'Superior state of mind'; he also knows the mind in a state of concentration,[58] as 'Mind in a state of concentration'; he also knows the mind not in a state of concentration,[59] as 'Mind not in a state of concentration'; he also knows 'the liberated state of mind,[60] as 'Liberated state of mind'; he also knows the unliberated state of mind,[61] as 'Unliberated state of mind'. with Metta Dieter #120250 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:10 am Subject: Re: Strawman scottduncan2 Alex, A: "...It all happens due to impersonal causes and conditions despite 'Alex'. Alex is not a factor, Alex is an obstacle to meditation. Whenever Alex tries to *do* something the meditation is no longer meditation but delusion and restlessness..." Scott: Well, you seem to have aligned yourself with the Puggalavadins lately, so a guy has to wonder. My thesis is that as long as you espouse the we-have-to-make-a-lot-of-effort-and-practice-like-our-turban-is-on-fire school of thought, which you do (but do you actually wear a turban?), then anything you say that sounds like some statement about how you are factoring in the characteristic of anatta is simply a giving of lip-service to that characteristic. Plus, what is 'meditation' again? Scott. #120251 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project scottduncan2 Howard, HCW: "???" Scott: Oh, nothing much. I thought it was cool that connie went to the effort to transcribe those quotes from two separate sources for your (non)consideration. That's all. Scott. #120252 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:41 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "part 3 'Style' I think is just an expression of understanding, patience, etc, that are present or not at the time of writing. The fact that a person appears to have a 'style' I think just shows that change in accumulations is slow. As in, if for someone patience doesn't come most of the time, that's going to affect the general thrust/style of his posts most of the time..." Scott: I see. You equate 'style' with 'practice' and 'practice' with 'meditation.' Have you ever heard of performance art? Have you ever heard of impression management? Have you ever heard of faking it? Have you ever heard of writing for effect? Have you ever heard of lying? All of these various things look like one thing but are not what they appear. You seem to have a bit of a naive take on the appearance of the written word. You have a style of your own and you manage it just like me. I still disagree that there is a one-to-one correspondence between style on an internet list and actual mental factors *and* in one's ability to accurately discern this. If patience seems to comes out less of the time for someone, what is your point in making a big deal of that so-called fact? What, are you impatient with the impatient? pt: "...As for making you adopt a style, there are two issues here imo: 1. is about furthering understanding, mine, and perhaps yours. Basically, like you can question Rob E's 'meditation practice' through which his actual understanding, patience, etc, or lack of these, become evident, and can then be discussed, thus (ideally) furthering understanding of the discussing parties, in the same way it seems right to question your 'posting practice' since through it your understanding, patience, etc, or lack of these, become evident and can then be discussed thus (ideally) furthering our understanding...when you write to others, especially to those who disagree with you, something seems off when I compare it to when others here write in the same circumstances, so again to me it seems there are some things you understand differently, or basically misunderstand them. Hence, the discussion ensues, and to me it seems right to question your understanding and practices." Scott: This is exactly what I had thought you were suggesting and pointed this out to you earlier. I think you really do think that there is something called 'posting practice.' I think you want to have me adopt this and I think you try to practice it just like meditators try to meditate. And, I suspect, you do so because you too have a bit to learn about the absolute profundity of anatta. And I totally think that advocating a 'posting practice' is as bogus as having a 'meditation practice.' Rob E. actually claims that he has a practice and that there is such thing as practice. So do you now, apparently. I don't. I have no 'posting practice.' I just post. You don't like the style. If I thought like you, then we would be discussing our 'posting practice' and how great it is and how proud we could be of each other for being so buddhisty in our well-framed, oh-so-friendly seeming posts (while we continued to experience what ever else all the while) like the ordinary folk we are. pt; "...2. the other issue is about about respect and privilege that come with participating in a community like this one..." Scott: Well, yeah, I've been appreciating the list for longer than you, son. I'll head over to take this up on the next one then. Scott. #120253 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:02 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "part 4 (last)..." Phweww. Nice production level, man. I like the numbering too, I sometimes do that. pt: "...imo it's not really about the persona of the group. It's more about respecting other members of the community, as well as being given the privilege to participate in the community. In particular: 1. there are the guidelines which clearly advise to avoid sarcasm and personal comments, etc. Lately on the list, personal comments are flooding the list (I'm not innocent there either)." Scott: Why are you mentioning it to me though? We're just two guys on a list. Personal comments have always come up. I've received some doozies from some of the earlier iteration of the meditators in years past. Rob E. sure gives it his best. You yourself - as you so graciously acknowledge - but so? It's part of the fact that there are really and truly two camps on the list. pt: "...2. there's that sutta I mentioned about the circumstances when the Buddha speaks, and there are other texts which describe when speech is best - with kindness, with other's welfare in mind, about dhamma, etc." Scott: Yeah, when you find it and post it we can discuss it. If you think this is to be manufactured then you've got the meditator's mind-set. pt: "...3. we have the example of our elders here when they speak to those who disagree with them and do so with patience and understanding and little or no attachment to their opinion, being right, etc." Scott: I don't mind that they do that. I prefer to be more straight forward. Saves time. Plus I'm not trying to help anyone and I think they are. But, you know 'Be like the Buddha' or 'Be like Sarah' - same difference. I don't buy it. But you address this below. pt: "...If the above outlines a 'style', are you meant to adopt/copy it? No, ideally it's meant to help with arising of patience, understanding, etc, at the time of writing. If these do arise, then the style changes accordingly. But, if you were to change your style to conform, that wouldn't be any good either, as it would just more about be attachment, etc." Scott: I do not agree. This is 'practice'-think. If 'it's meant to help with the arising of patience' - or any other dhamma with uncontrollability as it's characteristic - then you have totally gone off the rails. The best you can say is that it 'could' help or 'might' help, but if you're trying to 'make it help' good luck. What do you think underlies someone's 'need to help' or 'desire to help' anyway? pt: "...However, what to do if you choose to stick to your adopted style on purpose as if it's a real thing and other people keep getting upset about it? I don't know, to me it just seems the best to keep questioning you about the style, understanding, attachment, patience, etc. Perhaps it'll help and one day we'll have just as much patience for those who disagree with us, just like Nina and Sarah and others here have. Perhaps it won't help at all, I don't know." Scott: Why do *you* think it best to keep questioning me? I mean, this seems more than what I or Howard or anyone might do with each other now and then. Are you a moderator? If so, then I'll have to reconsider the hierarchy here and decide what I wish to do about that because as it stands you've got no more cred than I do. Secondly, please elaborate this 'helping' thing you're talking about. It's like some 'need to help,' like some sort of, I don't know, hunger for it or something. No one can help anyone in these matters. It's not about that at all. That's for social work (ha ha). pt: "I hope I explained why it seems right atm to keep questioning you on the style and tone issues." Scott: Not yet by a long shot, but the effort is stupendous. Scott. #120254 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:09 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn Hi, Dieter, > ( > D: ahirika and anottappa is the negative of hirika and ottappa , that means both are absent , doesn't it?) > > c: If you look back at your original overview, they (moral shame and dread/fear of doing wrong) are part of the 19 universal beauties group - > > > D: you are right , Connie , pls compare with my message to Nina. > > yes, i saw that you had answered for yourself - that it's not just a non-arising, but a different flavouring to the mix altogether. mostly, what I would choose to comment on in that post of yours is where you said (and I admit I don't quite follow it): <> Citta + cetasikas = the momentary state of consciousness thru either the sense- or the mind-door. Usually, we take the lazy way and just say citta when we mean both together; only in talking, can we take just the citta standing alone. citta: knowing, experiencing, consciousness, awareness, cognizance, as you like. cetasika: what gives the given citta it's particular outlook, flavour, point of view, approach, colour, ethical dimension. > C:so not just those 2, but that whole group will always arise together. If there is the lack of shame and dread, then delusion and restlessness must come into play. Plus, of course, at least 7 of the 13 ethically variable group & then however many other unwholesomes there happen to be. > > > D: not clear to me why the whole group will always arise together ? How then to distinguish the bunch of cetasikas? > This same difficulty is praised in the Questions of Kind Milinda... that the Buddha was able to do this, but for us??? Even with the help of all the Theras preserving what comes down to us in the texts, we are lucky to recognize even the grossest akusala. The more subtle it is, the more likely we will either not notice at all or think it is actually kusala. Your cetasika project is like Here is our pot of stew... which flavours can go together and how do they affect each other. > > C:I'm somewhat curious as to why you decided to take things out of order. It's not a big deal. Sure enough, the different books will deal with theses same things in different orders so it's not like there's a right and wrong to it... just me assuming your list represented an outlined plan of "attack". > > > D: attack? Did you get such impression from my previous postings?..and which ? I was laughing at my own unfortunate choice of words but left it in "s because I can sit all day rewording things until I just don't post at all but what does it matter? By their very nature, words are ambiguous. They will take on meaning from their neighbours and from the minds reading them with no guarantee it is the same meaning the mind writing them meant to impart. I still don't require an answer, but you have settled on a word and ignored the question, which, rephrased, might read: what made you decided to disregard the original order of presentation? My point was mainly that there was probably something to be learned from the particular arrangement. Mainly, I was wondering if I would bother to try to put something together that addressed that, as I understand it. Secondarily, I was thinking you would more than likely have to take the lead for this whole "dance" (which activity, like music, is only for the delight of fools) since I doubt (o gads, now i've used another trigger word) anyone else is going to bother to keep track (but then again, probably not even if you stick to the original order - so who care?). > I stumbled upon the terms ahirika and anottappa recently , together with the recognition of 'camps ' who are not on the 'same pages' , 'dance to different music ', 'students of different universities' , I thought a common platform could be the discussion of cetasikas . > Describing the formation of mental phenomena ,one by one or in pairs, as taught by Abhidhamma and seeking the context in daily life, > appeared to me a fitting trial to avoid the 'I am right and you are wrong ' style of discussion . > > No matter what: stay silent or talk, you will be scowled at. We will judge each other by our own standards. Most everything we do in a day is going to be motivated by akusala. Should I say "let's mind our own cittas" or "be the change you want to see"? > (D: well, the state of mourning (in German we speak of Trauerarbeit) means suffering . Which cetasika would that be? > (Unpleasant) feeling , as one of the 7 universals? > > C: Dosa if i had to just pick one. > > D:not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compassion? > No, dosa. We hate the sorrow of our own loss. Domanassa. Bad mind making feeling. Anyway, Nina already answered that, too. Compassion, I suppose, for the dead, would be remembering them as in Outside the Gates, doing good in their name / memory. > C:'Suffering' is another example of different approaches. In general, dukkha is pretty much any and all conditioned things, but when it is 'the truth of suffering', it is only bodily and mental painful feeling. Only 5 feelings out of everything possible? I guess this is partly where the "(existential) stress" translation comes from. > > D: Quite difficult to find a cover for feelings besides bodily and/or mental pleasant /unpleasent /indifferent feelings , isn't it? > ( I feel reminded on 'a rose is a rose, is a rose '..) > Useful to keep in mind that indifferent feeling can refer to equanimity (wholesome) or disregard for the wellbeing of oneself or others. > > Right as roses as far as feelings & them being only the 5 types of vedana. Not so sure about the disregard for anyone's wellbeing part being with neither pleasure nor painful feeling; I suppose it could be, but it's more likely a painful thing. Here, I was still on my 'there must be a reason behind the original list order' thing, but so it goes, we all just tend to keep talking past each other. Anway, good to see Dieter's Diner open. connie #120255 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 11/10/2011 3:07:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: (D: would you accept 'Learning, does require coming to actually understand what is being taught! Followed by examination like - as the Buddha put it - a goldsmith would prove the genuity of gold and silver, before accepting and believing it ?) ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Certainly careful examination and "testing" makes sense for establishing belief, but I think it's better to not worry very much about belief, and just put that "on the back burner". ------------------------------------------------ D: not so sure whether a 'back burner ' works for me ..;-) I love the spirit of freedom of the Buddha Dhamma as expressed by the Mahaparinibbana Sutta ("therefore, Ananda, be islands (a light ) unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island(light), the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge"and by the Kalama Sutta. --------------------------------------------- HCW: I like that a lot also, as you know. Nonetheless, belief for or against something is still just belief. In any case, if there is to be belief for or against a body of assertions, as opposed to actually KNOWING what is what, the belief should not be blind belief. The first step in knowing the truth (or even in establishing belief or disbelief) is coming to know and understand exactly what is asserted. The matter of belief should be put on the back burner in the sense of not reaching conclusions without sufficient information. ---------------------------------------------- Perhaps we can settle with a candle holder ? ;-) ---------------------------------------------- HCW: ;-) ---------------------------------------------- (D: I like to add (of what occurs) 'and what doesn't occur '..) ------------------------------------------------ HCW: As I view the matter, whatever happens, whenever it happens, is always in the midst of doing so "at the moment". Much of what we consider, perhaps all, are processes that occur over a span of time, but they can be directly observed, for worldlings at least, only "in the moment". To grasp an entire process, and not just a momentary snapshot, requires thinking for worldlings (though maybe for some ariyans, supermundane wisdom will do the job in a direct fashion, time not being an ultimate reality.) --------------------------------------------------- D: I think about sati , see Maha Satipatthana Sutta, e.g. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows[49] the mind accompanied by passion,[50] as 'Mind with passion'; he knows the mind unaccompanied by passion, as 'Mind without passion'; he also knows the mind accompanied by anger,[51] as 'Mind with anger'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by anger, as 'Mind without anger'; he also knows the mind accompanied by bewilderment,[52] as 'Mind with bewilderment'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by bewilderment, as 'Mind without bewilderment'; he also knows the indolent state of mind,[53] as 'Indolent state of mind'; he also knows the distracted state of mind,[54] as 'Distracted state of mind'; he also knows the developed state of mind,[55] as 'Developed state of mind'; he also knows the undeveloped state of mind,[56] as 'Undeveloped state of mind': he also knows the inferior state of mind, as 'Inferior state of mind'; he also knows the superior state of mind,[57] as 'Superior state of mind'; he also knows the mind in a stat e of concentration,[58] as 'Mind in a state of concentration'; he also knows the mind not in a state of concentration,[59] as 'Mind not in a state of concentration'; he also knows 'the liberated state of mind,[60] as 'Liberated state of mind'; he also knows the unliberated state of mind,[61] as 'Unliberated state of mind'. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: This seems to me to pertain to clear comprehension during introspection of mind states. --------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120256 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 11/10/2011 3:13:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard, HCW: "???" Scott: Oh, nothing much. I thought it was cool that connie went to the effort to transcribe those quotes from two separate sources for your (non)consideration. That's all. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Oh, yes. I quite agree. ------------------------------------------------ Scott. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120257 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:14 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn ps, Dieter, > > > C:'Suffering' is another example of different approaches. In general, dukkha is pretty much any and all conditioned things, but when it is 'the truth of suffering', it is only bodily and mental painful feeling. Only 5 feelings out of everything possible? I guess this is partly where the "(existential) stress" translation comes from. > > Maybe, since I didn't specifically address you (altho to my mind, any post is to the group at large), you didn't read where I corrected myself. Only the two kinds of feeling asociated with dosa mula citta are dukkha-dukkha. The other two kinds of dukkha are still "true" though, just that they are dukkha, but not 'the truth of dukkha'. But again, it was mostly with 'thinking in the background' about how the original list of cetasikas you gave fell into certain groupings. No need to answer. I'll think more about how we know a certain kind of soup is going to start with a given set of ingredients and how we can tell what's in any particular one. I think that was your more like your question. connie #120258 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:18 am Subject: Re: "There should be sati all the time" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina > > Rob E has latched hungrily on to that quotation and will now suck every last drop of life out of it. You have listened to A. Sujin for 40 years, or more. Does she recommend the intentional cultivation of sati? > > Please explain when you have a moment, thank you. Hey Phil, sorry to get your dander up for a change. Look, I think I handled this quote in a very specific and measured way. It is what it is. I have not assumed that it is a call to promote meditation by any means. I know K. Sujin does not recommend or promote any kind of organized practice, and I was not imputing that. I do think the quote is significant, and as I said, I think that both statements, that "sati should always be there," and that "one should not try to cause sati to arise" coexist together, and that the tension between those two gives us a lot to think about. As I said, I take the first statement to mean that sati is kusala and should be acknowledged as the correct, kusala state for citta to have; but that the second statement she made makes it very clear that one cannot cause sati to arise through personal desire or will, as there is no controlling self. K. Sujin said along those same lines that sati can become the "natural state" and I found that encouraging. I did *not* take it to mean that we can cause this state to arise or that we can cause it to become our natural state. Of course I acknowledge that K. Sujin does not think that, and would not say that. [And I know you don't believe it, but I don't think we can cause anything to arise either.] I hope, however, that you will find her statements on the arising and development of sati as encouraging as I do. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #120259 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:31 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Simply, mundane jhana is the development of samatha to the degree of the jhanas. These were also developed before the Buddha taught the Dhamma. > > The supramundane jhanas refer to the level of concentration accompanying the lokuttara (supramundane) cittas at moments of enlightenment. Even for those who have never experienced mundane jhana, because of the object being nibbana, the strength with which the enlightment cittas experience this object is equivalent in strength to 1st jhana, appana samadhi. > > For those who experienced higher jhanas immediately before enlightenment and for whom enlightenment occurred with one of these as basis (i.e as object of the process of cittas immediately before enlightenment), the strength of the enlightenment cittas is equivalent to the strength of that mundane jhana just attained. > ... I did actually sort of know this, but the way you've described it brings it together and makes it much more clear. I appreciate it. I figured the mundane jhanas were part of the conventional spiritual path and that the supramundane would pertain to the enlightenment process, but I do get confused about how the pieces fit together. The mundane path in general vs. the supramundane can get kind of shaky for me. I understand the supramundane a little more clearly, strangely enough, at least in general terms, because of the discussions here, but what is considered "mundane" is sometimes a little more confusing. ... ...The way my brain works it's much easier to go down the line of current messages and click them off than to do a search. I enjoy it but find it more confusing, what with the amount of various open projects and to-do lists I have to handle in between. But no excuse, I'll get to it and report back! > .... > S: n h m b!! See if Phil works that one out.... I think you've got me too! I'm thinking "no hurry" as in "no rush," but not sure... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #120260 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E > Op 6-nov-2011, om 7:19 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > One person may be inclined to be > > > aware of subjects of the first application but this does not mean > > > that only ruupa is known, not naama. Both ruupa and naama have to be > > > understood. How could one understand what ruupa is, without > > > understanding naama? > > > --------- > > > > Still, it seems like the people in that town would recognize what > > was appropriate for them to understand, and would pursue it as a > > regular part of their lives. Doesn't that seem to be the case? I > > would agree with you, if you are saying that it would be a mistake > > to think that everyone should practice the same thing, or that a > > person could just grab an application of satipatthana out of a hat > > and determine to practice it regardless of conditions. > > > ------ > N: Yes, depending on their accumulated inclinations. That is good; that is the way I am taking it. It is obvious that something can't happen or arise when the inclinations and accumulations are not there, so these women must have had the panna to understand what was accessible to citta and what was not; and they would have seen this arise according to conditions. > > > > R: > > > N: Sati can be accumulated so that it arises again, but > > completely so > > > because of its own conditions. There is no person who 'consciously' > > > cultivates it. When sati arises it arises, nobody there to > > manipulate > > > it, as you will agree. > > > ------- > > > > R:I guess that is before it accumulates, and becomes 'one's > > nature,' but obviously that is not going to happen by trying hard, > > but by development over time. > > > ------ > N: Yes. Cittas with sati arise and then fall away, they cannot stay. > But sati is not lost, it is accumulated in the citta and this can > condition the arising again of sati. > In this way it develops. Over time, yes, it is said this is 'ciira > kala bhaavanaa', a development that takes a long time. Patience and > perseverance are needed. Also at this moment: to be aware of any > reality presenting itself, so that pa~n~naa can investigate its true > nature: it is only a dhamma. No matter it is pleasant or unpleasant, > kusala or akusala, only a dhamma. That is development. It makes sense that this accumulation would take place over time, and would require understanding and patience so that the self would not jump in and try to "rush it" according to personal desire. And that the vehicle is always the same - the moment is here, and the reality that is presenting itself now is all that can be known. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #120261 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:39 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project philofillet Hi Connie (and all > Just thought I'd throw out what the Dhammasangani & it's Commentary have to say. Thanks for that, very interesting to see them together because I've been planning to buy the Dhammasangani or Atthasalini (sp?). A friend told me that if I were to buy one, to go with the latter, though of course both are great. Would you agree? Conventional thinking assumes that reading the tipitika material first and then the commentary is the way to go, but obviously the Dhammasangani is very bare bones, and I guess the commentary inlcudes much of the Dh.text plus an elucidation? ALso, is this passage from Att. that you posted from the late 19th century version or the more modern one (Tin? Tan? Tintin? BTW, Tintin was a great Dhamma scholar, he was going to name his dog Bhavanga but the Thomson Twins thought it was a kind of drug so he changed it to Snowy. (see "Tintin and the Luminous Mind") Thanks for any advice. Phil #120262 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:41 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott (and Connie) - > > In a message dated 11/10/2011 1:32:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > scduncan@... writes: > > connie, > > H: "...I have a hard time getting much out of it, though. (I might require > a subsubsubsubc0mmentary! LOL!)" > > Scott: Um. Yeah. > ------------------------------------- > HCW: > ??? > -------------------------------------- I think it was a "dis," Howard. I think Scott was saying, in essence, "Uh, yeah, Howard, I guess maybe you *might* require a subsubsubcommentary." Bad boy Scott - he thinks we don't know no Dhamma. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #120263 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott - > > In a message dated 11/10/2011 3:13:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > scduncan@... writes: > > Howard, > > HCW: "???" > > Scott: Oh, nothing much. I thought it was cool that connie went to the > effort to transcribe those quotes from two separate sources for your > (non)consideration. That's all. > ------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > Oh, yes. I quite agree. > ------------------------------------------------ Sorry I got it wrong. Scott wasn't dismissing your knowledge of Dhamma, just your reading of the quotes. My mistake. Sorry, Scott! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #120264 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:13 pm Subject: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) philofillet Hi all This talk contains a theme I've heard a lot recently. Thinking to try to sort out kamma from vipaka is, like thinking to try to sort kusala from akusala or nama from rupa, very natural and of course we do it, but unless there is understanding of the realities involved, it's just a lot of thinking. As always, A Sujin points to the dhammas, always to the presently arisen dhammas: At the beginning, people are talking about some technical aspects of kamma/vipaka. A.S: When we talk about the kamma and the vipaka, can we understand more than just 'kamma produces vipaka?' Like now, this moment, what is vipaka and what is kamma? But even so one cannot tell that this moment is the seeing of what kamma, which has been done in what life. As much as we can say is vipaka must be produced by kamma. And in order to understand the difference between the vipaka and the kamma, which are different types of citta. It *is* the moment of being aware in order to see the difference between moment of seeing and moment of attachment. Or seeing and kusala, or hearing and then akusala, see? It's not only thinking only about 'now, seeing is produced by kamma' but seeing now, ok it's produced by kamma but it's gone, it's the 'I' who sees. But when there is awareness of a characteristic which is seeing, it's different from the characteristic which clings, or (is) wholesome at that moment. So it's not just talk about it but it can be object of more understanding. ph: short and sweet. speculating about kamma is what obstructs so many people at their initial approach to the Dhamma, and then when we know more, a subtler obstruction to understanding, or perhaps it is a helpful condition for understanding, yes, probably the latter, when we start to think about kamma and vipaka at the more paramattha level. But we have to learn (naturally, not be trying) to let that level of thinking go as well, and just study (naturally, in the momentary sense) the characteristics of seeing, hearing etc which are the vipaka, and the characteristics of the clinging (usually) which arise from the lack of wise attention to the seeing etc. Very interesting. Down to the dhammas, y'all. Thinking about their conventional meanings and how they are experienced in daily life is a good topic for thinking and discussion, but unless there is going deeper to the characteristics, just a lot of talking and speculation which may or may not be helpful condition for getting down to the characteristics. btw, interesting when I transcribed, typing quickly, I wrote "kamma...vipaka" a couple of times when she actually said "vipaka...kamma" and how I originally titled this transcript "knowing kamma from vipaka." That's an indication of where our misorientation lies, we like to think about which kamma produces which vipaka, but the liberation from all that comes from more direct understanding of the process whereby arisen vipaka gives rise to fresh kamma, that's what we can understand more directly... phil #120265 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:32 pm Subject: Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) philofillet Hi again Correction: > But even so one cannot tell that this moment is the seeing of what kamma, which has been done in what life. Should be (pretty sure) " that this moment is the vipaka of what kamma." Phil #120266 From: "philip" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:36 pm Subject: Pakatuupanissaya-paccaya (natural decisive support condition) philofillet Hi Nina I am starting into the chapter on pakatuupanissaya-paccaya, natural decisive support condition. I will open this thread just in case actual perseverence on this topic arises, for a change. :) To start with, when we say "accumulations" as we do so often, is that shorthand for pakatuupanissaya-paccaya? Thanks. Phil #120267 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:57 am Subject: The Best Protection! bhikkhu5 Friends: Morality is not a Prison, but the only Effective Protection! What is Morality? Morality is the root cause of all success and all what is good. Morality is the intention behind avoidance of all wrongdoing. Morality is the mental combination of non-envy, goodwill and right view. Morality is the self-control enabled by awareness, tolerance & restraint. Morality is the non-breaking of the rules one has accepted and respects. What is the Meaning of Morality? Morality means consistency between all mental, verbal & bodily actions. Morality means upholding the foundation of all advantageous states. What is the Function of Morality? To STOP bad and evil behaviour and its painful future effects. To ATTAIN blameless mental purity and the blissful joy of innocence. What is the Manifestation of Morality? Morality manifests the blameless innocence of mental, verbal & behavioural purity. What is the Proximate Cause of Morality? The scrupulous shame within conscience is the cause of any moral ethics. The fear of the results of wrongdoing is the Cause of any moral ethics. Shame and fear of wrongdoing are therefore 2 protectors of the world! Ultra-Cut: Doing Good creates future Pleasure! Doing Bad creates future Pain! <...> Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. Written by 'the great explainer' Ven. Buddhaghosa in 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #120268 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:52 pm Subject: Courageous to understand reality as it is - audio sarahprocter... Dear Friends, In another discussion in Kaeng Krachan with Phil and other friends earlier this year, Khun Sujin had been stressing the importance of right understanding of realities and here the discussion continues on the topic of meditation practices and experiences: ***** KS: One has to be very truthful to the truth otherwise there would be 'the meditation of sitting position' and other things instead of developing right understanding of reality at this moment, only at this moment. S: When our friend on Saturday talked about her meditation experiences, I think there was some general sympathy and one of the points that was being made by her was that there's so much trying and attachment anyway, so whether it's trying and attachment to focus on the breath or not focus on the breath or to be aware, it's attachment anyway. A lot of people say look at the attachment to coming to the Dhamma discussion or listening or something like this. Would you say a little more about why such a kind of practice like that is so harmful. KS: Because it's done by lobha and ignorance. Is it not harmful to have more? S: I think so. KS: And wrong view. While we're talking about the truth, it's the only way to eliminate or decrease attachment to the result, otherwise one always wishes or hopes to have such and such experience. But while one realises it's only the matter of right understanding of reality now, one can see it is very slowly developed. There must be hearing, considering so that it can be the firmly established understanding about reality - not the past, not the future, only reality right now can be the object of understanding. S: And it can seem quite tough if one says going to the meditation centre is wrong view and wrong practice... KS: So what is the result of going? Not knowing reality right now, which is the only way to understand the conditioned reality. Even that sound is conditioned, hearing is conditioned. If it's not daily life or naturally, how can there be the perfect understanding of the conditionality which will lessen the attachment to clinging to the reality itself? So they try to find the other way, not understanding reality right now. Not listening to the subtlety of reality which Buddha pointed out - always to develop understanding. S: And when you say that whenever they have an idea of meditating or going to a place, there is an idea of 'I' for sure.. KS: Not understanding what is the object of right understanding. So if one asks them, can this be directly understood? R: They say, "yes it can", but if you question them more they say "but when I'm quiet and get to a certain stage of samadhi its easier to see." KS: Then its not this object at all. R: They'd say, "theoretically in daily life", yeh, like the woman on Saturday, but when we talk to her more she'd say, but she finds it's more conducive when shes in a quiet place to experience hardness. KS: Can there be one person only in a house, no one else? Can it condition right understanding? Why move to.... R: I agree. KS: ....I just want to help them understand that. If there can never be the understanding of reality right now, what can condition such understanding of a reality? P: So until we understand reality ...Yesterday at lunch we talked about the two kinds of solitude, seclusion - citta viveka and kaya viveka - and why the Buddha taught kaya viveka, but until we understand reality... KS: OK, all the teachings should be understood very carefully. For example, when one is alone at night after ones sleep, one wakes up. Can there be conditions to understand reality better than usual in daily life? R: Good question. What's the answer? KS: It depends. So one knows that associating with others will bring more and more stories to be condition for lobha and dosa, on the politics and economics and everything, rather than the teachings. So one understands about when there's nothing.... R: Distracting? K: ...Distracting - it can be a condition, but is there attachment to that? Suk: Also that. KS: Also that. R: When I wake up I think of other things, not about Dhamma. KS: It depends on conditions, but sometimes there are conditions for considering lots of what's in the Tipitaka and about realities or the direct understanding of realities, so one can see the conditions for each moment without attachment, but when there's attachment 'I just want to be alone or I want to go to the forest'. 'I want to meditate' - is it not with attachment? Even at the moment of considering Dhamma while it's quiet, very quiet, right understanding can understand whether there's attachment to that moment or not, otherwise there's no way to get rid of attachment at all. Suk: What you're saying is even if panna arose in the middle of the night there's still the danger of being attached to that? KS: Hmm, yeh. R: But you're also saying it can be at times for some people a condition for panna... KS: ... and attachment, otherwise panna cannot see attachment at all, so how can they go further than that because attachment comes along all the way, hinders the progress of panna. R: Even now, same thing can happen in a Dhamma discussion. KS: It depends, it depends because panna understands when there is direct awareness only. Suk: So we're talking about someone when panna has arisen already, there is still the danger of attachment whereas when people have ideas of 'better time and place', panna has never arisen and they're thinking with the idea of self? KS: And even panna has arisen, is there attachment or no attachment? So the path of panna is the elimination of attachment all the way because the attachment will get more subtle. Even panna is subtle, it's there, all the way, and that's what is meant by 'courageous to understand reality as it is'. M: And at a moment of understanding, that is completely alone? KS: Right. M: No need to be in a room... KS: No friend. S: Actually, each citta is alone. KS: So it's not just 'follow attachment'. it's the moment of understanding attachment more and more, more subtle attachment too, so that nothing can hinder the progress of panna - because it clings instantly all the time, 'to be good person', 'to what and what', not understanding. Only understanding can understand reality as it is. So without understanding, lobha is there, one is enslaved to lobha. ****** Metta Sarah ====== #120269 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 10-nov-2011, om 23:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > It makes sense that this accumulation would take place over time, > and would require understanding and patience so that the self would > not jump in and try to "rush it" according to personal desire. And > that the vehicle is always the same - the moment is here, and the > reality that is presenting itself now is all that can be known. ------ N: Well said, Nina. #120270 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pakatuupanissaya-paccaya (natural decisive support condition) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 11-nov-2011, om 4:36 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > To start with, when we say "accumulations" as we do so often, is > that shorthand for pakatuupanissaya-paccaya? ------- N: I would like to put this a litle differently: accumulated kusala that conditions the arising again of kusala and accumulated akusala that conditions the arising again of akusala are included in pakatuupanissaya-paccaya. But pakatuupanissaya-paccaya includes more that that. This condiiton is very wide. ------ Nina. #120271 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:42 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn Scott, > c: "...I might try to justify my 'good humour' but I don't see a lot of smiley faces and such when I read the texts... more likely there's some sort of long-suffering ghoulie when an arahant smiles..." > > Scott: You mean something like... > > [:---(,)] ? Yes! Actually, the first one to come to mind was the pig headed one Mogallana saw but now that I've looked him up I'll just hide behind a link and pretend I'm not laughing, considering: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=281 Nothing funny about it, I know, it just struck my sense of irony. Let's print up some STFU bumper stickers: Speak To Further Understanding. connie > And, yeah, why aren't we on a rampage against joking around too? I mean it's akusala too and encourages more akusala in others. You make an entirely sober point of it. > #120272 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:12 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nichiconn 'Fraid you'll have lost all respect for me this morning, Phil... I'd never heard of TinTin. If it's purely a budgetary thing: Dhs is online, Expositor isn't. Get 'em both one way or the other. You Can read Expositor on it's own, but it doesn't spoon feed you... you still have to look back to Mama for the text. Exp doesn't really even go line by line, more like playing with blocks. connie > I've been planning to buy the Dhammasangani or Atthasalini (sp?). A friend told me that if I were to buy one, to go with the latter, though of course both are great. Would you agree? Conventional thinking assumes that reading the tipitika material first and then the commentary is the way to go, but obviously the Dhammasangani is very bare bones, and I guess the commentary inlcudes much of the Dh.text plus an elucidation? ALso, is this passage from Att. that you posted from the late 19th century version or the more modern one (Tin? Tan? Tintin? BTW, Tintin was a great Dhamma scholar, he was going to name his dog Bhavanga but the Thomson Twins thought it was a kind of drug so he changed it to Snowy. (see "Tintin and the Luminous Mind") > #120273 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:26 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn pss, Dieter, > > c: Only the two kinds of feeling asociated with dosa mula citta are dukkha-dukkha. The other two kinds of dukkha are still "true" though, just that they are dukkha, but not 'the truth of dukkha'. > Let me see if I can get this right this time: the truth of suffering includes most all conditioned things except craving, which stands alone as the truth of origin. The supramundane cittas that are the path proper are also not considered 'truth of suffering'. Out of all the (truth of) suffering, only the two dosa mula cittas we call painful mental and bodily feeling are dukkha dukkha. Ok, think i got it. connie #120274 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:28 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project philofillet Hi Connie > 'Fraid you'll have lost all respect for me this morning, Phil... I'd never heard of TinTin. it was silliness. If you haven't heard of Tintin in a few weeks, then I'll mega-respect you, you'll see why.., I looked it up, the name I was looking for was Tin, one of the translators of Exp, in the 70s, I think, the other was Mueller in 1897, both editions are available at Amazon. I can't read big books online. I think only the former is at PTS. > If it's purely a budgetary thing: Dhs is online, Expositor isn't. > Get 'em both one way or the other. You Can read Expositor on it's own, but it doesn't spoon feed you... you still have to look back to Mama for the text. Exp doesn't really even go line by line, more like playing with blocks. Ph: Thanks. Phil #120275 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Borers in framework of roof nichiconn hi, Chris. Just read about the dead yakkhas in Horner's translation of King Milinda and wondered how you're doing. connie "One does see the physical frames of dead yakkhas, sire, and an odour is emitted from their corpses. One sees the physical frames of dead yakkhas, sire, in the form of an insect or one sees it in the form of a worm or one sees it in the form of an ant or one sees it in the form of a moth or one sees it in the form of a snake or one sees it in the form of a scorpion or one sees it in the form of a centipede or one sees it in the form of a bird or one sees it in the form of a beast." -Naagasena #120276 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:59 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project philofillet Hi again Connie > Just thought I'd throw out what the Dhammasangani & it's Commentary have to say. > > (Khine) Dhs: > 30. What at that time is the power of being ashamed (to do evil)? > That which at that time is being ashamed to do deeds the evilnes of which ought > Expositor, p198: > In the exposition of the 'strength' called 'sense of shame' {Dhs 30}, 'that which on that occasion' means 'by which state at the time (of the fisrt type of moral consciousness).' > Ph: The famous doubled ended stick (excrement and red hot) doesn't appear here. Did you only post a small portion of the exposition of hiri/otoppa, or is that abominable rod at Vism? Phil #120277 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:14 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nichiconn Hi, Phil, > I looked it up, the name I was looking for was Tin, one of the translators of Exp, in the 70s, I think, the other was Mueller in 1897, both editions are available at Amazon. I can't read big books online. I think only the former is at PTS. > haha, don't worry - I actually googled "TinTin and the Luminous Mind"... instead of getting up and seeing that my book says: Pe Maung Tin, M.A. says my copy. Professor of Pali at The College, Rangoon. Did Mueller really translate it? Into English? I'm thinking he probably put together (edited) the PTS untranslated version and PMTin's is the first English translation. Happy to be corrected, though. connie #120278 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:25 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nichiconn Hey, Phil. > > > > (Khine) Dhs: > > 30. What at that time is the power of being ashamed (to do evil)? > > That which at that time is being ashamed to do deeds the evilnes of which ought > > > Expositor, p198: > > In the exposition of the 'strength' called 'sense of shame' {Dhs 30}, 'that which on that occasion' means 'by which state at the time (of the fisrt type of moral consciousness).' > > > > Ph: The famous doubled ended stick (excrement and red hot) doesn't appear here. Did you only post a small portion of the exposition of hiri/otoppa, or is that abominable rod at Vism? > > That was it for Expositor. I'm not sure whether that particular stick shows up anywhere other than the V... seems like there's at least one sutta with it, but we've all seen enough of the thinking off the top of my head to know better than to trust it. connie #120279 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:53 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project philofillet Hi Connie > > That was it for Expositor. I'm not sure whether that particular stick shows up anywhere other than the V... seems like there's at least one sutta with it, but we've all seen enough of the thinking off the top of my head to know better than to trust it. Thanks, that's fine, that simile is so amazingly clear that there isn't any real need to know where it comes from. I somehow doubt it's from a sutta, though. In case any readers are unfamiliar with it, there is a rod with two ends, hiri is what makes you hesitate to grab the excrement smeared one, otoppa steers you away from the red hot one. Thinking off top of head to share tech. details/book knowledge is infinitely preferable to thinking off top of head to show off supposed actual understanding of Dhamma. Not enough of the former on the internet, goops and goops galore of the latter, including my own many contributions. Phil #120280 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:56 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Connie, all, you wrote: what I would choose to comment on in that post of yours is where you said (and I admit I don't quite follow it): <> Citta + cetasikas = the momentary state of consciousness thru either the sense- or the mind-door. Usually, we take the lazy way and just say citta when we mean both together; only in talking, can we take just the citta standing alone. citta: knowing, experiencing, consciousness, awareness, cognizance, as you like. cetasika: what gives the given citta it's particular outlook, flavour, point of view, approach, colour, ethical dimension. D: I thought about the metaphor 'ceasika gives citta the colour' too. I am used to think in ways of D.O. , in particular of 5 khandas and miss still clarity about the detailed specification of grouping those into three . Understood that citta is synonym with vinnana , then its use would be the emphases on 'the momentary '(state of) consciousness. Consciousness defined by knowing/being aware of the (objects of the 'all' ) 6 senses . There is an interrelation between citta and cetasika/rupa , compared by the simile of the 2 heaps of straw leaning against eachother, both are depending on eachother. When our topic is cetasika , the question may come up, whether an - from ciatta- isolated consideration for the 52 items is possible . As you said 'only in talking, can we take just the citta standing alone' , hence talking about 'cetasikas in daily life ' may involve some difficulties... You will know that Abhidhamma added the ethical dimension into the Law of Dependent Origination , which -as far as I know - is not found within the sutta pitaka. By that citta and cetasika are classified in different ways and that needs to be studied , possibly 'spoonfed' (like Howard mentioned recently ) in order to comprehend the theory with my (possible) experience ..others may prefer to learn it by heart and wait until the conditions are right for understanding. But that isn't my approach..at least not in my age ;-) > C:so not just those 2, but that whole group will always arise together. If there is the lack of shame and dread, then delusion and restlessness must come into play. Plus, of course, at least 7 of the 13 ethically variable group & then however many other unwholesomes there happen to be. D: not clear to me why the whole group will always arise together ? How then to distinguish the bunch of cetasikas? C: This same difficulty is praised in the Questions of Kind Milinda... D: to which questions of the Milinda Panha do you refer? C: that the Buddha was able to do this, but for us??? Even with the help of all the Theras preserving what comes down to us in the texts, we are lucky to recognize even the grossest akusala. The more subtle it is, the more likely we will either not notice at all or think it is actually kusala. D: the Buddha specified kusala and akusala by the 10fold kamma patha. So the grossest forms of akusala should be rather clear , the (d) evil is in the detail ;-) C:Your cetasika project is like Here is our pot of stew... which flavours can go together and how do they affect each other. D: I don't see it as my project only because I suggested it. The idea was/is more a coming together for diner of a 52 items menu... > C:I'm somewhat curious as to why you decided to take things out of order. It's not a big deal. Sure enough, the different books will deal with theses same things in different orders so it's not like there's a right and wrong to it... just me assuming your list represented an outlined plan of "attack". > D: attack? Did you get such impression from my previous postings?..and which ? I was laughing at my own unfortunate choice of words but left it in "s because I can sit all day rewording things until I just don't post at all but what does it matter? By their very nature, words are ambiguous. They will take on meaning from their neighbours and from the minds reading them with no guarantee it is the same meaning the mind writing them meant to impart. I still don't require an answer, but you have settled on a word and ignored the question, which, rephrased, might read: what made you decided to disregard the original order of presentation? D: I did not ignore your question but don't understand it . Do you mean by 'to disregard the orginal order of presentation' that I choce to start with ahirka and anottapa? That I explained below .. (I stumbled upon the terms ahirika and anottappa recently , together with the recognition of 'camps ' who are not on the 'same pages' , 'dance to different music ', 'students of different universities' , I thought a common platform could be the discussion of cetasikas . > Describing the formation of mental phenomena ,one by one or in pairs, as taught by Abhidhamma and seeking the context in daily life, > appeared to me a fitting trial to avoid the 'I am right and you are wrong ' style of discussion .) C: My point was mainly that there was probably something to be learned from the particular arrangement. Mainly, I was wondering if I would bother to try to put something together that addressed that, as I understand it. Secondarily, I was thinking you would more than likely have to take the lead for this whole "dance" (which activity, like music, is only for the delight of fools) since I doubt (o gads, now i've used another trigger word) anyone else is going to bother to keep track (but then again, probably not even if you stick to the original order - so who care?). D: the issue of dance and music was a reference to Sarah's nice comparision at the beginning of our communication : when you don't know eachother it's like dancing the first time together ( B.T.W. I don't consider anything wrong with dance and music, something else of course when joining the Order.) >C:No matter what: stay silent or talk, you will be scowled at. We will judge each other by our own standards. Most everything we do in a day is going to be motivated by akusala. Should I say "let's mind our own cittas" or "be the change you want to see"? D: As mentioned the 10 fold kamma patha is a good guidance . In detail /perfection we must decide ourselves about our standard. I prefer a middle way, like the lute simile : the strings not too tense , not to loose in order to get the best sound.. Concerning judging : the Buddha admonished Ananda: don't judge people! ( .. will quote if you like). > (D: well, the state of mourning (in German we speak of Trauerarbeit) means suffering . Which cetasika would that be? > (Unpleasant) feeling , as one of the 7 universals?> > C: Dosa if i had to just pick one.> > D:not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compassion?> No, dosa. We hate the sorrow of our own loss. Domanassa. Bad mind making feeling. Anyway, Nina already answered that, too. Compassion, I suppose, for the dead, would be remembering them as in Outside the Gates, doing good in their name / memory. > C:'Suffering' is another example of different approaches. In general, dukkha is pretty much any and all conditioned things, but when it is 'the truth of suffering', it is only bodily and mental painful feeling. Only 5 feelings out of everything possible? I guess this is partly where the "(existential) stress" translation comes from. D: I can not comprehend dosa with the deep sadness one feels when a loved one dies, however understand ,that a Noble One like Sariputta will not lose his equanimity/peace of mind..(even in the case of the Buddha ) > > D: Quite difficult to find a cover for feelings besides bodily and/or mental pleasant /unpleasent /indifferent feelings , isn't it? > ( I feel reminded on 'a rose is a rose, is a rose '..) > Useful to keep in mind that indifferent feeling can refer to equanimity (wholesome) or disregard for the wellbeing of oneself or others. C: Right as roses as far as feelings & them being only the 5 types of vedana. Not so sure about the disregard for anyone's wellbeing part being with neither pleasure nor painful feeling; I suppose it could be, but it's more likely a painful thing. Here, I was still on my 'there must be a reason behind the original list order' thing, but so it goes, we all just tend to keep talking past each other. D: ..actually there is nice sutta , in which the Buddha pointed out that there are vast number of possibilities to classify feelings, besides the standard of 2 or 3. Please do me a favor and tell me more about what you mean by 'there must be a reason behind the original list order' thing , which seems to be in some way suspicious to you. I could have started with moha , in particular with Adam and Eve (B.T.W. leaving aside that Buddhism rejects a beginning ,a very beautiful allegory involving kama tanha , bhava tanha , ahirika and anottappa.. but I imagined not a very favorable reaction by the members.. C:Anway, good to see Dieter's Diner open. D: thanks Connie ;-) .. so let us look further into the menu.. with Metta Dieter #120281 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:05 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nichiconn Say, Phil, Howard You were right in the first place, Phil, Exp, not V. What I quoted may be all that page 198 has to say about the Guardians, but there's actually a whole lot more looking back thru the preceding 30+ pages. You wouldn't need a lot of sub-commentaries after all, Howard. If you like, I will copy more later. p166 As of two iron balls, one being cold and besmeared with dung, the other being hot and burning, a wise man does not catch the cold one from loathing its being smeared with dung, nor the other one for fear of getting burnt. Here the not grasping the cold ball form loathing its being smeared with dung is like the not doing wrong from being sunk in an internal sense of shame. The not grasping the hot ball from fear of being burnt should be considered as the not doing evil from fear of purgatory. connie #120282 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:15 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project ptaus1 Hi Phil, connie, > 'Fraid you'll have lost all respect for me this morning, Phil... I'd never heard of TinTin. > > If it's purely a budgetary thing: Dhs is online, Expositor isn't. > Get 'em both one way or the other. You Can read Expositor on it's own, but it doesn't spoon feed you... you still have to look back to Mama for the text. Exp doesn't really even go line by line, more like playing with blocks. > ... > > I've been planning to buy the Dhammasangani or Atthasalini (sp?). A friend told me that if I were to buy one, to go with the latter, though of course both are great. Would you agree? Conventional thinking assumes that reading the tipitika material first and then the commentary is the way to go, but obviously the Dhammasangani is very bare bones, and I guess the commentary inlcudes much of the Dh.text plus an elucidation? ALso, is this passage from Att. that you posted from the late 19th century version or the more modern one (Tin? Tan? Tintin? BTW, Tintin was a great Dhamma scholar, he was going to name his dog Bhavanga but the Thomson Twins thought it was a kind of drug so he changed it to Snowy. (see "Tintin and the Luminous Mind") pt: There's also a newer translation of Dhammasangani, not by PTS though. I remember Ven.Dhammanando saying that it's a bit more readable than the PTS translation: http://www.vedicbooks.net/the-dhammasanganienumeration-of-the-ultimate-realities\ -2-vols-p-6785.html?osCsid=16c031cd89465fe26153bf5613844f96 Best wishes pt #120283 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:27 am Subject: Ivan's letters 6: On concepts philofillet Hi all Another great letter from Ivan : > Hi Nori, > > >Howard: As I see it, "physical body" and "brain" and so on, are concepts. > >Nori: All experience takes place in the mind, even the most basic sense > >experience; its interpretation is constructed in the mind. Nori: This is > >where I still have a problem. 'scientific details' are rupas as experienced > >by hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people who are in consensus. > >This is consensus reality; I find it is as close to reality as you can > >come. Matt: > This is Matt. You have never met me so you have never experienced through > any of the rupa senses who this person called Matt is. And yet the word on > the computer screen, which impinges as colour, conditions thinking and > memory so that there is an idea of a person called Matt. The thought of Matt > is momentary, it arises from conditions and falls away immediately to be > followed by other experiences. So for that split moment is Matt real and > after that moment does Matt fall away? No, at no time is Matt real. What is > real is thinking. Thinking arises and thinking falls away. It is of little > importance what the thought is about because that is just a concept, which > is not real. > > And then there is the word *Howard*, which conditions thoughts of Howard and > a concept of this person Howard who exists somewhere in the world. The > thinking is real but not the thoughts about Howard, which are just concept. > > Nama and rupa realities are impinging on the sense doors right now and there > is no Howard to be found. What are the realities creating now? Maybe they > are creating the concept *I am in a room communicating with others*. When > rupa-realities change then there are different concepts, such as *I am in a > different room now*. At that time there may arise thoughts of the first > room, but that is the reality of thinking, it is not the rupa that created > the concept of being in the first room. > > In both rooms there are no realities impinging on the rupa-senses that give > a concept of Howard being in the room or that there are billions of people > outside of the room or that there is a world or a brain. There may be > concepts about those things, but they are not realities. > > When there are conditions for wisdom it arises and knows the reality for > what it is. It knows colour, sound, smell, taste, tactal feeling, thinking, > lobha, dosa etc. When wisdom does not arise then there is no understanding > of what is real and so there are only concepts about a room, a house, a > street, a country, a world, a universe and me in it. There are countless > millions of concepts created by nama & rupa realities. None are real; the > brain, the billions of people, Howard or you. > > Consensus reality is a concept created by the reality of thinking, how close > is that? > > MattR > > _________________________________________________________________ > In the market for a car? Buy, sell or browse at CarPoint: > http://server-au.imrworldwide.com/cgi-bin/b?cg=link&ci=ninemsn&tu=http://carpoin\ t.ninemsn.com.au?refid=hotmail_tagline > #120284 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:27 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi RobK, > > pt: Perhaps it would become a little more clear if I reframe in terms of what's the object of citta at a time - during insight it's dhammas and characteristics, during other moments of (non-vipassana) kusala, it's concepts. So, thinking, and most of the time, when it's (non-vipassana) kusala, it's thinking about the welfare of others, rather than stories about "me" and "mine". > RK: dont have time to study the rest of your long post. But just as a matter of interest, when someone is considering Dhamma- say about nama and rupa, or anatta, do you think it possible they have any kusala? pt: Sure, hence the use of "most of the time" in the sentence. Please remember the context - discussion and what happens during a discussion. So, while at any time one can consider Dhamma in a kusala manner, the intention to share this or some other knowledge intellectually with others afterwards, like in a discussion, imo can be kusala only if the intention has to do with the welfare of others, as in the welfare of listeners/readers. If it's not shared for their welfare, then what is the intention behind saying it? I can only see it as akusala, as in about "me". What do you think? Best wishes pt #120285 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project sarahprocter... Hi Pt, Phil & all, >________________________________ >From: ptaus1 >pt: There's also a newer translation of Dhammasangani, not by PTS though. .... S: The translation by U Kyaw Kline is much, much better. For any examples, try searching 'Sarah Kline Dhammasangani' as I've quoted from it a few times. We got our rather tatty copy sent from Myanmar (ordered on-line). I had a copy of the Expositor (transl of Atthasalini, comy to Dhammasangani) for years (decades actually) before getting a copy of the R-D Dhsg. Because KS and Nina were always referring to it, I liked to check references. Easy to read on its own. The same applies to the Dispeller of Delusion (transl of Vibhanga, 2nd book of Abhid), also available from PTS. This is a really great transl as it includes Pali terms and is a lot more modern than the Expositor. Worth becoming a member of the PTS if anyone is building up a library, then you get discounts, a free book each year (which you can choose) and support them too. Metta Sarah ====== #120286 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:40 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn Hi Dieter, D: not clear to me why the whole group will always arise together ? How then to distinguish the bunch of cetasikas? C: This same difficulty is praised in the Questions of Kind Milinda... D: to which questions of the Milinda Panha do you refer? ------ Horner, Milinda's Questions: "Suppose, sire, a king's cook were to make a soup or a sauce and were to throw curds into it and salt and ginger and cummin-seed and black pepper and other ingredients; and suppose the king should speak thus to him: 'Bring me a sauce of curds, bring me a salt-sauce, bring me a ginger-sauce, bring me a cummin-seed sauce, bring me a black pepper-sauce, bring me a sauce into which everything has been thrown' - now, is it possible, sire, having again and again analysed these sauces the nature of which is to arise together, to bring forward a sauce and speak of its acidity or saltness or bitterness or sharpness or astringency or sweetness?" "It is not possible, sire ...{Elder repeats King's words in full}... or astringency or sweetness, though (all of these tastes) are present each with its own distinguishing mark." "Even so, sire, it is not possible, having again and again analysed these mental states the nature of which is to arise together, to point to a difference between them, saying: 'This is sensory impingement, this is feeling, this perception, this volition, this consciousness, this applied thought, this sustained thought, though (all) are present each with its own distinguishing mark." (Or see http://sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3507.htm for alternate translation). I imagine that applies as well to the remaining cetasikas. I read into it a form of praise that Buddha could teach all of this. ======== D: Please do me a favor and tell me more about what you mean by 'there must be a reason behind the original list order' thing, which seems to be in some way suspicious to you. I could have started with moha , in particular with Adam and Eve (B.T.W. leaving aside that Buddhism rejects a beginning ,a very beautiful allegory involving kama tanha , bhava tanha , ahirika and anottappa.. but I imagined not a very favorable reaction by the members.. c: Not so much suspicious as serving a purpose. Like the way a menu might have separate sections for the different meals, drinks and deserts, the list you used had separated the cetasikas into 4 main groups: variable, unwholesome, beautiful and 'unfixed'. Then there were a few subclasses. Of those, we're all familiar with the idea that of the 13 "chamelion" or annasammana types, the 7 universals are going to arise with(in) any citta no matter what. If it's an unwholesome citta, we automatically know at least the 4 universal unwholesome cetasikas are added into the mix; if it's a 'beautiful' citta instead, then at least 19 of the 25 possible sobhana cetasikas (along with some or all of the first 13). But what of the further divisions within the akusala and sobhana groupings? And what's with the 'unfixed' group? Why are some cetasikas listed twice? That's the kind of thing I meant, so really, no matter what you started with I could still have wondered: why is he starting with just one or two instead of addressing the classifications? Anyway, it's fine. connie #120287 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:02 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, Rob K., pt: "...the intention to share this or some other knowledge intellectually with others afterwards, like in a discussion, imo can be kusala only if the intention has to do with the welfare of others, as in the welfare of listeners/readers. If it's not shared for their welfare, then what is the intention behind saying it? I can only see it as akusala, as in about 'me'..." Scott: It appears that you are saying that all that has to be done to ensure that kusala is present is for a person to 'intend' that it be so by somehow thinking or wishing that the discussion be for the welfare of others. It is this sentiment that brings into question your comprehension of anatta. Scott. #120288 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project scottduncan2 Dear All, S: "The translation by U Kyaw Kline..." Scott: That's 'Khine.' Scott. #120289 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:22 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn Hi again, Chef Dieter, D: I can not comprehend dosa with the deep sadness one feels when a loved one dies, however understand ,that a Noble One like Sariputta will not lose his equanimity/peace of mind..(even in the case of the Buddha ) c: Ah, maybe you are wanting something like soka / sorrow on the list of cetasikas. Whatever the sad term, it is still 'being afflicted' with some degree of under the radar unpleasant thru excruciating, intensely painful feeling. There is also only the one word piti or "joy" to cover the whole other range from mildly to wildly happy / pleasant feeling. Does that help? Like the difference between weak and strong tea or coffee... it is still just tea or coffee (and water / citta). connie #120290 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:31 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > > > pt: Perhaps it would become a little more clear if I reframe in terms of what's the object of citta at a time - during insight it's dhammas and characteristics, during other moments of (non-vipassana) kusala, it's concepts. So, thinking, and most of the time, when it's (non-vipassana) kusala, it's thinking about the welfare of others, rather than stories about "me" and "mine". > > > RK: dont have time to study the rest of your long post. But just as a matter of interest, when someone is considering Dhamma- say about nama and rupa, or anatta, do you think it possible they have any kusala? > > > pt: Sure, hence the use of "most of the time" in the sentence. Please remember the context - discussion and what happens during a discussion. So, while at any time one can consider Dhamma in a kusala manner, the intention to share this or some other knowledge intellectually with others afterwards, like in a discussion, imo can be kusala only if the intention has to do with the welfare of others, as in the welfare of listeners/readers. If it's not shared for their welfare, then what is the intention behind saying it? I can only see it as akusala, as in about "me". What do you think? > > Best wishes > pt > dear Pt myself I just write and think while writing. Do you think some people might be concerned about the Dhamma and just want to point out what's right and what's not. For me I prefer reading a direct post that explains Dhamma correctly rather than a lovingly written post by someone with wrong view> But of course that is about styles and preferences. You see someone with rightview can still have dosa, in fact the rightview can condition dosa(when they read a post saying something Adhamma) and so they write a post that is partly conditioned by dosa and partly by their right view. I happen to think it is the view that is important- not how much they cared and worried about whether the readers were amenable to what they wrote. But again that is just my posting style and reading preference. We love to judge people and think that if someone writes politely and patiently then that shows their innate wisdom and character. But, as Scott has pointed out, we might be wrong. So I will continue on with my confrontational, strawman arguments. Its my posting style. Scott will probably do the same with his way. Luckily the list has Elders who can be an example of all the good qualities you wish that the rest of have. robert #120291 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:16 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa philofillet Hi Dieter > (D: well, the state of mourning (in German we speak of Trauerarbeit) means suffering . Which cetasika would that be? > (Unpleasant) feeling , as one of the 7 universals? > > C: Dosa if i had to just pick one. > > D:not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compasion? ph: I find it interesting to note that karuna, being kusala, cannot possibly arise with unpleasant mental feeling. I would say that eliminates almost all of the the moments of what we would conventionally think of as "compassion." Mourning is therefore akusala, but of course it can be object of kusala understanding. Moments of kusala compassion mixed in, the impulse to reach out to help? But if there is unpleasant mental feeling it must be rooted in dosa and therefore akusala from what I understand, open to corrections. Phil #120292 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:20 am Subject: The Ultimate Peace! bhikkhu5 Friends: The 10 Contemplations is Daily Buddhist Routine! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus & friends: There is one contemplation, which when often practiced and developed leads to the complete turning away from the world, to detachment, to stilling, to ceasing, to Peace, to final penetrating knowledge, to Enlightenment, and thus to Nibbâna ... Any Noble Disciple who by progress has understood the Dhamma dwells frequently in this state. Which is that one contemplation? It is reflecting regarding the qualities of ultimate Peace like this: This is peaceful, this is sublime, namely, the stilling of all kammic construction, the leaving all behind of all substrata of any being, the complete vanishing of all sorts of craving, ceasing, Nibbâna ... Whatever, Bhikkhus & friends, there is of both conditioned & unconditioned things, dependent & independent constructions, detachment is considered the highest of them, that is, the final destruction of ego-belief, the overcoming of all desire & thirst, the rooting out of clinging, the breaking out of this long round of rebirths, the vanishing of craving, absolute release, Nibbâna ... The Buddha emphasized: Nibbâna is the Highest Happiness! Source: AN 1:16.10 + 10:60 + 4.34 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #120293 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:33 pm Subject: Off-topic: Pleases Remember All Sentient Beings... Armistice Day dhammasaro Good friends all, On these remembrance days may we remember our forefathers, fathers, and other relatives and friends... My father as a young under aged teen, fought in The War To End All Wars... After my father's first wife died of cancer; he later re-married... Both my mother's brother and her sisters' husbands served in World War Two... One served in the Korean War... I served before The Second Indochina War (US Viet Nam War) However, too, too many of my peers served there and did not return alive... In your way, please remember them all... all, on both sides... as a teen ager, I had, as USAF military classmates, two Japanese Air Force officers. I quickly learned... ...as since I have worked with and entertained at home both former enemy and their children... and, at the time, friends; now, enemies by respective governments... Such is life... peace... yours in the Dhmma-vinaya, Chuck Post script: Every time I visit Thailand; I visit The Hell Fire Pass. A few American POWs (from the USS Houston and the Texas Army National Guard) held by the Japanese died there and a few survived!!! The vast majority of the POWs were Aussie, Brit and Dutch... See: References: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Pass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kSrhKaeD5U&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCxp5jOepEM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxOMKikEH3w&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhOewZXUop4&feature=related very sincere tears.... #120294 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:10 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 dhammasaro Good friends Sarah Jane, Phil, et al To me there are two kinds of language... Everyday language and Dhamma language... Unfortunately, too, too, many of us mix the two languages and as a result; we condemn, ignore, insult, snipe, et cetera each other... FWIW, this ole Texican bag of bones has never met a monk who/whom became a monk for the correct "Official DSG" reason... Some became monks to not be poor rice farmers; some became monks to get a free university education; some became monks because of a poor love experience; some became monks because... just relating everyday mundane Buddhist life... not "Ivory tower DSG" Buddhist life... Again, please chant/meditate/pray for the monk you hate the most!!! Pax vobiscum [Latin: May peace be with you all] yours in the dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ... some deletion ... Good friend Sarah Jane, et al At the time I was ordained at Wat Bovonieves (Wat Bowon) Vihara in Bangkok which is Dhammayut. Many years earlier, I was ordained at Wat Thai Washington DC which is Mahanikaya. I disrobed after only four months as my mother became ill and I returned to Texas. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted .................. #120295 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pakatuupanissaya-paccaya (natural decisive support condition) philofillet Hi Nina > N: I would like to put this a litle differently: accumulated kusala > that conditions the arising again of kusala and accumulated akusala > that conditions the arising again of akusala are included in > pakatuupanissaya-paccaya. But pakatuupanissaya-paccaya includes more > that that. This condiiton is very wide. Yes, I'm having trouble with this condition, very difficult. It seems to be that anything can condition anything, it's so wide. Kusala can condition akusala, akusala can condition kusala, and of course the above. Can't all conditions included within pakatuupanissay-paccaya be contained within the other 23 paccayas? I don't quite get it. For example, I read that understanding dhamma (kusala) can condition conceit (akusala) which I have a lot of these days. Why is this in n.d.s.c? Why not individual moments of understanding conditioning conceit by decisive support condition of object or some other condition? Why n.d.s.c? Thanks Phil #120296 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 philofillet Hi Chuck > Again, please chant/meditate/pray for the monk you hate the most!!! Don't forget that hate is a momentary reality, I might "hate" one monk at one moment and have friendly feelings towards him at another. Wouldn't it be better to understand how feelings of hate and friendliness come and go on their own instead of locking on to "I hate this monk" ? I think understanding is better than trying to use chant/meditation/prayer as a kind of magic to fix things. The Buddha's teaching helps liberate us from being locked in prisons of "I hate" and "I love" and "I" this and "I" that! Phil #120297 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project philofillet Hi all Thanks for the various info. I think Sarah posted Nina's "Cetasikas" a few years ago. I'm sure we can find many relevant commentarial passages there. I'm going to try a Sarah Cetasikas Expositor search, the search function really is great... Phil #120298 From: "philip" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:25 pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 439- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/hiri & ottappa(a) philofillet Hi all Here is a link to that previous study corner on cetasikas, lots to pull up, I'm sure. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== #120299 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:06 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, Phil, Regarding: D: "not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compasion?" ph: I find it interesting to note that karuna, being kusala, cannot possibly arise with unpleasant mental feeling. I would say that eliminates almost all of the the moments of what we would conventionally think of as 'compassion.' Mourning is therefore akusala, but of course it can be object of kusala understanding..." Scott: Phil is correct. One value of studying the characteristics of the mental factors is to learn to put aside romantic notions of attachment. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37326 Nina writes: "Cittas go much faster than that. I see it this way: we heard about the brahmavihaaras and it is paññaa that sees the value of them. We consider more and then we begin to realize that what we used to take for kusala was actually akusala. We learn that instead of metta there was the near enemy of attachment. Instead of karuna there was the near enemy of sorrow, which is a form of dosa. How valuable to learn the difference. Otherwise we go on accumulating akusala we take for kusala. When there is right understanding there can be a moment of true metta or true karuna, not what we used to take for metta and karuna. Such moments fall away but they are accumulated and can be a condition for their arising later on. Thus, when we notice someone who needs help (mental or material), it all depends on the conditions for the citta at that moment what will arise: aversion or true compassion. I do not reason or draw conclusions, but when there are conditions for karuna I make a move at once. Let us not forget that karuna is not mine, that it arises depending on conditions. it has no master, it is anatta. I do not have an intellectual approach, I find that this does not work. Cittas are too fast. If we delay, it may be too late to help! Thus here you see the difference with social psychology." Scott: Note: '...Instead of karuna there was the near enemy of sorrow, which is a form of dosa...' Scott. #120300 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:28 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, Phil, Regarding: D: "not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compasion?" Scott: Visuddhimagga IX, 99: "Compassion has grief based on the home life as its near enemy, since both share in seeing failure. Such grief has been described in the way beginning, 'When a man either regards as a privation failure to obtain visible objects cognizable by the eye that are sought after, desired, agreeable, gratifying and associated with worldliness, or when he recalls those formerly obtained that are past, ceased, changed, then grief arises in him. Such grief is called grief based on the home life.' (M.iii,218)..." Scott: The sutta reference is to the Sa.laayatanavibhanga Sutta, MN, 137. Scott. #120301 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:51 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: I like that a lot also, as you know. Nonetheless, belief for or against something is still just belief. In any case, if there is to be belief for or against a body of assertions, as opposed to actually KNOWING what is what, the belief should not be blind belief. D: yes, that is what was meant by the simile checking gold or silver' H:The first step in knowing the truth (or even in establishing belief or disbelief) is coming to know and understand exactly what is asserted. The matter of belief should be put on the back burner in the sense of not reaching conclusions without sufficient information. D: without a certain belief /faith there is no motivation coming to know and understand exactly (in particular penetrating the 4 N.T.) , isn't it? Quite useful to see belief or faith as a matter of condition within D.O. , recalling S.N. XII 23 .. birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)... D: I think about sati , see Maha Satipatthana Sutta, e.g. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows[49] the mind accompanied by passion,[50] as 'Mind with passion'; he knows the mind unaccompanied by passion, as 'Mind without passion'; he also knows the mind accompanied by anger,[51] as 'Mind with anger'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by anger, as 'Mind without anger'; etc. HCW: This seems to me to pertain to clear comprehension during introspection of mind states. --------------------------------------------- D: and what is different when we intend to comprehend the 52 cetasikas? with Metta Dieter #120302 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 11/12/2011 11:51:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: I like that a lot also, as you know. Nonetheless, belief for or against something is still just belief. In any case, if there is to be belief for or against a body of assertions, as opposed to actually KNOWING what is what, the belief should not be blind belief. D: yes, that is what was meant by the simile checking gold or silver' H:The first step in knowing the truth (or even in establishing belief or disbelief) is coming to know and understand exactly what is asserted. The matter of belief should be put on the back burner in the sense of not reaching conclusions without sufficient information. D: without a certain belief /faith there is no motivation coming to know and understand exactly (in particular penetrating the 4 N.T.) , isn't it? --------------------------------------------- HCW: The only belief required is the belief in the possibility of there being something of value to obtain. --------------------------------------------- Quite useful to see belief or faith as a matter of condition within D.O. , recalling S.N. XII 23 .. birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)... D: I think about sati , see Maha Satipatthana Sutta, e.g. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows[49] the mind accompanied by passion,[50] as 'Mind with passion'; he knows the mind unaccompanied by passion, as 'Mind without passion'; he also knows the mind accompanied by anger,[51] as 'Mind with anger'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by anger, as 'Mind without anger'; etc. HCW: This seems to me to pertain to clear comprehension during introspection of mind states. --------------------------------------------- D: and what is different when we intend to comprehend the 52 cetasikas? ----------------------------------------------- HCW: Nothing, except that comprehending cetasikas is actually easier than comprehending conditional relations among dhammas. ------------------------------------------------ with Metta Dieter ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120303 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:15 am Subject: Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Hi Phil ,all, you quoted Khun Sujin.aspects of kamma/vipaka. A.S: "When we talk about the kamma and the vipaka, can we understand more than just 'kamma produces vipaka?' Like now, this moment, what is vipaka and what is kamma? But even so one cannot tell that this moment is the seeing of what kamma, which has been done in what life. As much as we can say is vipaka must be produced by kamma. And in order to understand the difference between the vipaka and the kamma, which are different types of citta. It *is* the moment of being aware in order to see the difference between moment of seeing and moment of attachment. Or seeing and kusala, or hearing and then akusala, see? It's not only thinking only about 'now, seeing is produced by kamma' but seeing now, ok it's produced by kamma but it's gone, it's the 'I' who sees. But when there is awareness of a characteristic which is seeing, it's different from the characteristic which clings, or (is) wholesome at that moment. So it's not just talk about it but it can be object of more understanding. " D: I still do not understand why different types (kamma and vipaka) of citta are mentioned instead of saying the type of citta is determined by cetasika (and rupa). In respect to vipaka (=old kamma/old action) and (new) kamma(=reaction) it is said in S.N.XXXV , 145 (trsl.by TB) Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak. "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma. "And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do - seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them - that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." with Metta Dieter #120304 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:38 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Connie, you wrote: 'Let me see if I can get this right this time: the truth of suffering includes most all conditioned things except craving, which stands alone as the truth of origin. The supramundane cittas that are the path proper are also not considered 'truth of suffering'. Out of all the (truth of) suffering, only the two dosa mula cittas we call painful mental and bodily feeling are dukkha dukkha. Ok, think i got it. D: Easiest seems to me to define Dukkha by the first Noble Truth , and Dukkhata by the 3 different kinds , i.e. of bodily and mental pain, of formation and of change . The latter provides the only explanation why sukkha , the counterpart , is mentioned being (finally) dukkha. In respect to craving I assume it is best to keep in mind the Law of Dependent Origination , which shows/explains the 'orgination of the whole mass of suffering ', i.e. the first and second Noble Truth. with Metta Dieter #120305 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:58 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Connie, you wrote: D: to which questions of the Milinda Panha do you refer? ------ Horner, Milinda's Questions: "Suppose, sire, a king's cook were to make a soup or a sauce and were to throw curds into it and salt and ginger and cummin-seed and black pepper and other ingredients; and suppose the king should speak thus to him: 'Bring me a sauce of curds, bring me a salt-sauce, bring me a ginger-sauce, bring me a cummin-seed sauce, bring me a black pepper-sauce, bring me a sauce into which everything has been thrown' - now, is it possible, sire, having again and again analysed these sauces the nature of which is to arise together, to bring forward a sauce and speak of its acidity or saltness or bitterness or sharpness or astringency or sweetness?" "It is not possible, sire ...{Elder repeats King's words in full}... or astringency or sweetness, though (all of these tastes) are present each with its own distinguishing mark." "Even so, sire, it is not possible, having again and again analysed these mental states the nature of which is to arise together, to point to a difference between them, saying: 'This is sensory impingement, this is feeling, this perception, this volition, this consciousness, this applied thought, this sustained thought, though (all) are present each with its own distinguishing mark." (Or see http://sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3507.htm for alternate translation). I imagine that applies as well to the remaining cetasikas. I read into it a form of praise that Buddha could teach all of this. D: good quotation , Connie. Conclusion: you can not separate the indegredients of the soup anymore but you can distinguish its flavour . Hence let's try to catch the cetasika flavour .. ( says the chef ;-) ======== D: Please do me a favor and tell me more about what you mean by 'there must be a reason behind the original list order' thing, which seems to be in some way suspicious to you. I could have started with moha , in particular with Adam and Eve (B.T.W. leaving aside that Buddhism rejects a beginning ,a very beautiful allegory involving kama tanha , bhava tanha , ahirika and anottappa.. but I imagined not a very favorable reaction by the members.. c: Not so much suspicious as serving a purpose. Like the way a menu might have separate sections for the different meals, drinks and deserts, the list you used had separated the cetasikas into 4 main groups: variable, unwholesome, beautiful and 'unfixed'. Then there were a few subclasses. Of those, we're all familiar with the idea that of the 13 "chamelion" or annasammana types, the 7 universals are going to arise with(in) any citta no matter what. If it's an unwholesome citta, we automatically know at least the 4 universal unwholesome cetasikas are added into the mix; if it's a 'beautiful' citta instead, then at least 19 of the 25 possible sobhana cetasikas (along with some or all of the first 13). But what of the further divisions within the akusala and sobhana groupings? And what's with the 'unfixed' group? Why are some cetasikas listed twice? That's the kind of thing I meant, so really, no matter what you started with I could still have wondered: why is he starting with just one or two instead of addressing the classifications? Anyway, it's fine. D: I see.. actually I asked Nina to suggest another better fitting list .. the one I picked up came first thanks to Google ;-) with Metta Dieter #120306 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:19 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi again, Connie, you wrote: c: Ah, maybe you are wanting something like soka / sorrow on the list of cetasikas. Whatever the sad term, it is still 'being afflicted' with some degree of under the radar unpleasant thru excruciating, intensely painful feeling. There is also only the one word piti or "joy" to cover the whole other range from mildly to wildly happy / pleasant feeling. Does that help? Like the difference between weak and strong tea or coffee... it is still just tea or coffee (and water / citta). D: yes, I missed in the list the flavor of sadness ..I don't think it is sorrow. Actually to mention the whole range of feelings between ecstacy and agony must require a big dictionary , so no chance to find any flavor in that limited list of cetasikas and the headings mentioned must do . Nowadas with a - I assume - nearly global coffee/tea shop culture , the difference between weak and strong is valid only for the choosen type. with Metta Dieter #120307 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:54 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Phil and Scott, you wrote: ph: I find it interesting to note that karuna, being kusala, cannot possibly arise with unpleasant mental feeling. I would say that eliminates almost all of the the moments of what we would conventionally think of as 'compassion.' Mourning is therefore akusala, but of course it can be object of kusala understandingMoments of kusala compassion mixed in, the impulse to reach out to help? But if there is unpleasant mental feeling it must be rooted in dosa and therefore akusala from what I understand, open to corrections..." Scott: Phil is correct. One value of studying the characteristics of the mental factors is to learn to put aside romantic notions of attachment. D: ok, but we are still in the process of studying the characteristics of the 52 mental factors in respect to daily life , so we need to comprehend our experience . Grief under dosa .. ? Among the three - if applied - moha seems a better fitting root ot to me. It is understood that the aim of study comes to disentchantment, dispassion and finally detachment . with Metta Dieter #120308 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:01 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "ok, but we are still in the process of studying the characteristics of the 52 mental factors in respect to daily life , so we need to comprehend our experience . Grief under dosa .. ? Scott: See the textual references, Dieter. Yes, 'grief under dosa.' This is the problem with trying to 'comprehend our experience' without Dhamma. Anyone can make up anything. We could all write our own Dhamma. So, yeah, grief under dosa. You just think of grief as some sort of noble emotion or something. Scott. #120309 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:18 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi again ,Scott and Phil, you wrote: Regarding: D: "not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compasion?" Scott: Visuddhimagga IX, 99: "Compassion has grief based on the home life as its near enemy, since both share in seeing failure. Such grief has been described in the way beginning, 'When a man either regards as a privation failure to obtain visible objects cognizable by the eye that are sought after, desired, agreeable, gratifying and associated with worldliness, or when he recalls those formerly obtained that are past, ceased, changed, then grief arises in him. Such grief is called grief based on the home life.' (M.iii,218)..." Scott: The sutta reference is to the Sa.laayatanavibhanga Sutta, MN, 137. D: it is quite an interesting sutta which treats the analyses of the 6 sense media. The text of the reference (trs TB: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.137.than.html ) "And what are the six kinds of household distress? The distress that arises when one regards as a non-acquisition the non-acquisition of forms cognizable by the eye - agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, connected with worldly baits - or when one recalls the previous non-acquisition of such forms after they have passed, ceased, & changed: That is called household distress. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.) it is form (not the beloved friend) of which is spoken . My dictionary defines grief as" a feeling of great sadness, especially when someone dies" , so perhaps the term in the VisM isn't the best translation for the Pali word (?) with Metta Dieter #120310 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:07 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, Regarding: Visuddhimagga IX, 99: "Compassion has grief based on the home life as its near enemy, since both share in seeing failure. Such grief has been described in the way beginning, 'When a man either regards as a privation failure to obtain visible objects cognizable by the eye that are sought after, desired, agreeable, gratifying and associated with worldliness, or when he recalls those formerly obtained that are past, ceased, changed, then grief arises in him. Such grief is called grief based on the home life.' (M.iii,218)...' The sutta reference is to the Sa.laayatanavibhanga Sutta, MN, 137." D: "it is quite an interesting sutta which treats the analyses of the 6 sense media." Scott: This sutta is a good example of Abhidhamma in the suttas. Here's a more suitable translation than the one you offered. translation (~Naa.namoli/Bodhi): "Herein, what are the six kinds of grief based on the household life? When one regards as a non-gain the non-gain of forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable, gratifying, and associated with worldliness - or when one recalls what was formerly not obtained that has passed, ceased, and changed - grief arises. Such grief is called grief based on the household life." Scott: Same again for sounds, odours, flavours, tangibles, and mind-objects. You can see how ~Naa.namoli translates Bhuddaghosa, who translates the same sutta in the Visuddhimagga: "When a man either regards as a privation failure to obtain visible objects cognizable by the eye that are sought after, desired, agreeable, gratifying and associated with worldliness, or when he recalls those formerly obtained that are past, ceased, changed, then grief arises in him. Such grief is called grief based on the home life..." Scott: So, clearly, we are dealing with mental factors and momentary consciousness. In fact, as you are studying, that is all there is. That's why connie suggests soka. Or try domanassa, which is, to at least use a dictionary related to Dhamma (Nyanatiloka): "Domanassa: lit. 'sad-mindedness', grief, i.e. mentally painful feeling cetasika-vedanaa." D: "it is form (not the beloved friend) of which is spoken..." Scott: Correct. This is the whole point of the sutta. It *is* form, not 'beloved friend.' 'Beloved friend' is merely a concept, the mind-object of lobha - another mental factor. D: "...My dictionary defines grief as 'a feeling of great sadness, especially when someone dies', so perhaps the term in the VisM isn't the best translation for the Pali word (?)" Scott: Your dictionary hardly defines Dhamma, does it? I mean, why would you go to a worldly dictionary and suggest it even is trying to define a Paa.li word? And then suggest your dictionary (and your own understanding) to be superiour to Buddhaghosa's? Your dictionary defines grief from a non-Dhamma perspective. Learning about mental factors is learning that one's cherished ideas about things are likely wrong. Scott. #120311 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:26 am Subject: Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) philofillet Hi Dieter (and all, re "old kamma") > D: I still do not understand why different types (kamma and vipaka) of citta are mentioned instead of saying the type of citta is determined by cetasika (and rupa). Ph: I'm afraid I don't understand the question, I think it must have to do with the discussion you are having with Connie, which I haven't read. (Unfortunately, I only have time to pick and choose which posts I read.) I trust she will make things clearer about the relationship between citta and cetasika. > "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. > > "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. By the way, I was going to post about this. In a discussion I heard a Thai woman ask A.Sujin about "old kamma," referring to something that had come to have a wrong understanding in Thai popular Buddhism. It was explained that old kamma was "any past kamma." But my understanding had been based on above, that "old kamma" was vipaka. Could anyone who heard that talk and remembers what I am referring to clarify when you have a moment? Thanks. I guess just different meanings of "old kamma." Phil #120312 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:50 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa philofillet Hi Dieter > D: ok, but we are still in the process of studying the characteristics of the 52 mental factors in respect to daily life , so we need to comprehend > our experience . Ph: I think to understand the cetasikas in daily life we have to understand what is taught about the cetasikas. It might be a basic different approach to Dhamma, as represented by your affection for the kalama sutta, which I was rude about before (my apologies) but which I am still highly dubious of and suspect will inevitably get in the way of understanding Abhidhamma. We are not out to rewrite Abhidhamma by looking at it based on how we seem to have experiences in daily life. Abhidhamma is perfect, our understanding is very weak, so by understanding, first, as best as we can what the texts say, we can begin to, tentatively, see (I personally prefer 'speculate about') how the dhammas are at work in daily life. Dh: Grief under dosa .. ? Among the three - if applied - moha seems a better fitting root to to me. Ph: All akusala cittas are rooted in moha and either lobha or, in the case of any cittas accompanied by unpleasasnt mental feeling, in dosa. (Some cittas have only moha as their root, involving restlessness and doubt, when the citta doesn't settle on its object enough to have lobha and dosa involved, again, Abhidhamma experts, always step in to correct my errors, thanks.) And any cittas with unpleasant mental feeling cannot be rooted in lobha, so must be dosa, plain and simple. (Again, experts, please correct if necessary.) But there can be as I said in the other post, moments of kusala mixed in there. You are sad because your dear friend is grieving, surely many akusala moments of dosa dosa dosa. But in there a moment of kusala wishing you could help, that is pure kusala, then perhaps mana about that. (I get moved to tears easily, with what I used to call compassion, but even then, before I knew Dhamma, I could tell there was a big element of thinking about what a beautiful "soul" I had, getting so moved and all, it was all about me...) In passing, would like to concur with Scott and suggest putting away the dictionary definitions of conventional meaning of grief etc. If we look at the Pali word only it will keep things closer to Dhamma, don't you think? Again, a different approach, maybe you want to start with daily life and reduce down to Dhamma. I think it is much better to start with as firm as possible an understanding of dhammas as taught by the Buddha and arahants in the texts, and then (in my case) make tentative speculations about how dhammas are functioning in daily life. Or "come and see it" with confidence, if that is your style. In fact, dhamma processes are so fast that we won't be able to answer those questions, I think. Still, as I said in another thread, how dhammas are performing their functions in daily life is a good topic for thinking, and discussing, more valuable than talking about the stuff we talk about with people who aren't into Dhamma. Thanks Dieter. Phil #120313 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:59 am Subject: Re: Ivan's letters 6: On concepts philofillet Hi all > > Nama and rupa realities are impinging on the sense doors right now and there > > is no Howard to be found. I like this "no Howard to be found." As I've said before, I have trouble with "there is no Nina", but "there is no Nina to be found" is perfectly clear to me, I can only know Nina as as a concept through mind door processes, even if she were sitting in front of me and I were shaking her hand or giving her a hug, which would be nice! Phil #120314 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:59 am Subject: RE: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 dhammasaro Good friend Phil, et al Warm thanks for commenting. I do not hate any monk... In my perception, many here at DSG hold several infamous monks in such disdain which one could say there is "hate." That is why this ole bag of Texican bones suggest such... What you wrote; imho, more here at DSG should follow... of course, a little "mazik" would help... [verily beeg Texican grins] peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck .................... rest deleted ................... #120315 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 philofillet Hi Chuck > I do not hate any monk... In my perception, many here at DSG hold several infamous monks in such disdain which one could say there is "hate." Ph: "There is hate" is already an improvement on "you hate!" > What you wrote; imho, more here at DSG should follow... of course, a little "mazik" would help... [verily beeg Texican grins] Ph: I think if moha leads to a person feeling that they are burning with hatred various kinds of new age therapies including visualization ( I would put modern notions of radiating metta, sending merit etc in that category)can be helpful indeed. But understanding Dhamma is best. We are fortunate to be awake to the Buddha's teaching, as you know not many are .. Phil #120316 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 philofillet Hi again Chuck > > I do not hate any monk... In my perception, many here at DSG hold several infamous monks in such disdain which one could say there is "hate." > > Ph: "There is hate" is already an improvement on "you hate!" And as our understanding improves "there is hate" is seen as "there are moments of dosa (aversion), many of them, which along with otherdhammas leading to the idea ' hate so and so'" The better we understand those momentary dhammas arising due to conditions, beyond our control, the more we inch towards the exit from that prison cell of "I hate." Phil #120317 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:19 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, I think you need some more context to structure your studies. Here is a bit from the Introductory Discourse of Buddhaghosa's commentary to The Dhammasanga.nii, Atthasaalinii (The Expositor): "...In the Suttanta, the five 'aggregates' are classified partially and not fully. In the Abhidhamma they are classified fully by methods of Suttanta classification, Abhidhamma classification, and catechism. Similarly with the twelve sense-organs, the eighteen elements, the Four Truths, the twenty-two controlling faculties, and the twelve Causal Genesis. It is only in the Indriya Vibha.nga that there is no Suttanta classification, and in the Vibha.nga on Causal Genesis the method of catechism is wanting. In the Suttantas the four Applications of Mindfulness are partially classified, not fully. But in the Abhidhamma they are classified in detail under three methods. And the same with the Four Supreme Efforts, the Four Steps to Supernormal Potencey, the Seven Factors of Wisdom, the Eight-fold Path, the Four Jhaanas, the Four Infinitudes, the Five Precepts, the Four Analyses...Again the bhikkhus, who study the Abhidhamma, experience infinite rapturous joy in reflecting. As though grouping the multitude stars in the sky (into constellations), the Teacher taught things mental and material, dividing them into various parts and portions - things subtle and abstruse such as the unique content of aggregates, sense-organs, elements, controlling faculties, powers, factors of wisdom, kamma and its result, and the distinction between mind and matter..." "...He is the true disciple of the Sage Who sees, like a bright jewel in his hand, Root-causes, from which all becoming is - Lore deep and hard to know, which the Great Sage Intuited, and all in order taught." Scott. #120318 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:05 pm Subject: Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings glenjohnann Dear Sarah Thanks for the notes/comments. Wondering about the one below - > KS: In the absolute sense as long as it's kusala or akusala it comes from avijja, ignorance. At first I questioned whether you had transcribed it correctly - but then I thought that if it is correctly written, then what K. Sujin is getting at is that so long as there are still conditions for akusala to arise (ie. all defilements not yet eliminated) then there is the opportunity for both kusala and akusala to arise. So long as there is any ignorance, there can be akusala. So why include kusala above - because until enlightenment is attained, there is opportunity for both kusala and akusala. In an absolute sense, so long as both can arise one is still in the rounds of samsara. Only when one attains Nibbana will there be a cessation of kusala and akusala citta, and only then will there be the inoperative citta (the name of which I cannot recall at the moment). Is this what you think she had in mind in the above comment? Ann #120319 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:11 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 dhammasaro Good friend Phil, Warm thanks for your continued comments. As a former devote Roman Catholic; "hate" was/is not in this sentient being vocabulary... there was no "hate" of the WW II German socialist NAZIs nor "hate" of the Imperial Japanese... there was always 'compassion" to all... in my primary years, I wanted to go to China as a Maryknoll Missionary priest. Today, it is the Brahma-vihara to all... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted ................. #120320 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:32 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] doubt as hindrance dhammasaro Good friend Connie, et al Warm thanks for your explanation... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ......... rest deleted ............... #120321 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings sarahprocter... Dear Ann & all, Thx for your helpful feedback. Much appreciated. _______________________________ >From: glenjohnann >Thanks for the notes/comments. > >Wondering about the one below - > >> KS: In the absolute sense as long as it's kusala or akusala it comes from avijja, ignorance. > >At first I questioned whether you had transcribed it correctly - but then I thought that if it is correctly written, then what K. Sujin is getting at is that so long as there are still conditions for akusala to arise (ie. all defilements not yet eliminated) then there is the opportunity for both kusala and akusala to arise. So long as there is any ignorance, there can be akusala. So why include kusala above - because until enlightenment is attained, there is opportunity for both kusala and akusala. .... S: Yes, exactly right. To be precise, until arahatship is attained, there is the opportunity for kusala and akusala cittas to arise. The arahat has kiriya (inoperative) cittas, not kusala cittas. There is no further kamma, there are no more 'bricks' of samsara. As we know, avijja is the first link in Dependent Origination. When there is no more avijja, the cycle is 'broken', there is no further becoming. From a previous post #114949: >Sarah: The "Atthasalinii" states (I, Book I, Part I, Ch I, Triplets in the Maatikaa, 44) that akusala dhamma as well as kusala dhamma which are not of the eightfold Path are leading to accumulation, to continuation of the cycle of birth and death. We read about akusala and kusala which are not of the Path: ... "leading to accumulation" aacayagaamin) are "those states which go about severally, arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall." The kusala dhamma which are not of the eightfold path fall under dana, sila and samatha bhavana. The highest arupa jhanas can be attained, but they just accumulate more bricks in samsara. They are not the path.< ***** >In an absolute sense, so long as both can arise one is still in the rounds of samsara. Only when one attains Nibbana will there be a cessation of kusala and akusala citta, and only then will there be the inoperative citta (the name of which I cannot recall at the moment). > >Is this what you think she had in mind in the above comment? ... S: Yes, again, "when one attains full enlightenment, i.e magga citta of arahat, there are no conditions for kusala or akusala cittas to arise anymore, only (sobhana) kiriya cittas. At the end of the arahat's life, parinibbana, no further becoming, no further arising of any cittas of any kind. Metta Sarah ===== #120322 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Perfections, was: Pt's Galaxy ... szmicio Dear Sarah, > > What is patience? > .... > S: The (kusala) acceptance of what is conditioned at this very moment. As pa~n~naa develops, understanding realities as they are, it becomes detached from them. L: Well said. > Such detachment and patience can never be developed when there is the idea of self, so there has to be awareness of sakkaaya di.t.thi when it arises such as when seeing, hearing, heat or cold are taken as belonging to 'me' or as 'me'. L: And sakkaya ditthi and atthanuditthi what they mean? > Phil quoted a discussion in which someone asked KS how to help a friend who is lonely. She said help them to understand realities. If they can't understand them, they have to suffer from loneliness. The same applies to impatience. If there is no understanding of realities now, there will continue to be the idea that the problems in life are the other people or the situation of one kind or other, when actually the only real problem is ignorance now. Best wishes Lukas #120323 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving szmicio Dear Phil, Nina > > A Sujin's description to Lodewijk of sati as an atom in a day > > reminded me of Ven Dhammadaro's "one moment of sati in a lifetime, > > wealthy man." > ------ L: Yes very wealthy man, very. Ajachn told once, 'it needs to be natural sati, so natural as seeing and hearing....But the lobha is there, one is not in power to get out of the claws of lobha..' She meant that the lobha is that which is a big hindrance that hinders the sati and right understanding. We wants to have this and that, to develop this and that, we cling to mental developement and dont even realize that we are in claws of lobha all the time. Sarah wrote of patience, that is patient to its object. It is detached to it. It doesnt expect. Best wishes Lukas #120324 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Lukas, Thanks for your good reminders. Lobha more often tha we ever thought! I hope the books arrived. Nina. Op 13-nov-2011, om 9:28 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: Yes very wealthy man, very. Ajachn told once, 'it needs to be > natural sati, so natural as seeing and hearing....But the lobha is > there, one is not in power to get out of the claws of lobha..' > She meant that the lobha is that which is a big hindrance that > hinders the sati and right understanding. We wants to have this and > that, to develop this and that, we cling to mental developement and > dont even realize that we are in claws of lobha all the time. > > Sarah wrote of patience, that is patient to its object. It is > detached to it. It doesnt expect. #120325 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Scott, Op 10-nov-2011, om 17:26 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > N: "Yes, depending on their accumulated inclinations." > > Scott: What are you saying 'yes' to, in Rob E.'s statement, Nina? > Is it clear what 'pursue it as a regular part of their lives' > means, for example? Or the implication that while not 'everyone > should practice the same thing' there is still 'practice.' ------ N: Practice, another loaded word. It has been given different interpretations, but it is the translation of the Pali pa.tipatti. I am thinking about it that when pariyatti is right it will lead to pa.tipatti and this again to pativedha. As Phil wrote: 'In passing, would like to concur with Scott and suggest putting away the dictionary definitions of conventional meaning of grief etc. If we look at the Pali word only it will keep things closer to Dhamma..' Scott, I read somehting in a recent post you wrote which I like: 'Learning about mental factors is learning that one's cherished ideas about things are likely wrong.' That is why I often repeat in my Cetasikas, this and this is different from what we mean by it in conventional language. We have to consider them thoroughly as they occur now. As to the text of the co. about the mothers praising and blaming I cannot come up with more than I wrote already. Every day I become more behind with the great number of posts. -------- Nina. #120326 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving philofillet Hi Lukas > Sarah wrote of patience, that is patient to its object. It is detached to it. It doesnt expect. I think it is good to know that alobha accompanies each and every kusala dhamma. In the past when I heard A.Sujin say there must be detachment from the beginning, I took it as an impossible demand. But now I see it is for real. There are not many kusala dhammas, but we know there are some, and they are always accompanied by alobha. When there is kusala, there is no concern for ourself - that in itself tells us how rare kusala must be. But we keep listening, reflecting, studying, discussing, conditions for kusala are being established. Phil #120327 From: "philip" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings philofillet Hi Sarah, Ann, all. > >> KS: In the absolute sense as long as it's kusala or akusala it comes from avijja, ignorance. Did I also hear that in paticca samupaddha, avijja stands for all sankhara khanda, or for all defilements, or....? Phil #120328 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... upasaka_howard Hi, Ann (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/12/2011 11:05:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, glenjohnann@... writes: Dear Sarah Thanks for the notes/comments. Wondering about the one below - > KS: In the absolute sense as long as it's kusala or akusala it comes from avijja, ignorance. At first I questioned whether you had transcribed it correctly - but then I thought that if it is correctly written, then what K. Sujin is getting at is that so long as there are still conditions for akusala to arise (ie. all defilements not yet eliminated) then there is the opportunity for both kusala and akusala to arise. So long as there is any ignorance, there can be akusala. So why include kusala above - because until enlightenment is attained, there is opportunity for both kusala and akusala. In an absolute sense, so long as both can arise one is still in the rounds of samsara. Only when one attains Nibbana will there be a cessation of kusala and akusala citta, and only then will there be the inoperative citta (the name of which I cannot recall at the moment). Is this what you think she had in mind in the above comment? Ann ================================= Just a thought: Even kusala mind states, in the technical sense of 'kusala', are conditioned by sense-of-self and ignorance. Only inoperative causal states, kiriya cittas - neutral and unaffected by ignorance, and resultant states unconditioned by prior avijja-defiled kamma are free of defilement. This is not to say, of course, that wholesome states aren't superior to unwholesome ones. (BTW, if I'm not mistaken, kiriya cittas can occur from time to time even in worldlings.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120329 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:10 am Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Rob E (120190) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > [RE:] The question I guess would be how does one "arouse mindfulness" in the object of meditation, the breath? It is clear from the passage that the practitioner in this sutta is sitting down in front of a tree purposefully in order to arouse mindfulness in the breath, and then practicing mindfulness of breathing. So the question is, how does he do this? He is doing it purposely, he is sitting down to meditate. This is established even in your translation. So what do you think about this situation? =============== J: I would like to discuss this in the context of your comments below regarding the development of a kusala mental state to the stage where there is a preponderance of that particular state. Just for reference, here is the passage we're discussing: "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. "Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out. ..." =============== > > J: The commentarial view/interpretation is that mindfulness is one of the wholesome mental factors (which, as you know, are momentary in nature). > > [RE:] I think this is deceptive. Of course sati like anything else, will arise in a given moment, but if one is advanced in satipatthana there are going to be many more moments of mindfulness and often in a row, which creates a markedly different "state of consciousnes" over time than if sati only arises once in a rare while. =============== J: Yes, agreed. And I think this is important. Only a person who is advanced in mindfulness of breathing would meet the description from the sutta, "Mindful he breathes in and mindful he breathes out". =============== > [RE:] So I think it is the preponderance of the moments that matters in some senses. =============== J: Agreed. And as I said above, an important point. But I do not think the sutta is about how such a preponderance of moments of mindfulness is to be achieved. What I think is being said is that the two things -- the advanced stage of development of mindfulness with breathing as object, and an established routine of spending afternoons in a quiet place -- tend to go hand in hand. The sutta does not say, and I think should not be interpreted as implying, that there was no mindfulness prior to sitting down, or that that the sitting down was for the purpose of encouraging mindfulness to arise. I would say that the monk being described is a monk whose mindfulness is already highly developed, with breathing as object. As such, resort to a quite place after lunch would already be his normal daily routine. =============== > [RE:] The arahant no longer has certain defilements arising at all, and will have sati arising all the time, so it does make a difference what is happening over the long spate of cittas, rather than just one at a time. If you're analyzing the reality of a single citta and the cetasikas that are involved, etc., then it can make sense to talk about a single citta, or if you are talking about how a single citta demonstrates anicca, then it makes sense. But when you are talking about the development of mindfulness through cultivation, and the "arousing" of mindfulness, which has to take place in more than one moment, I think, something else is in play. =============== J: Yes, no disagreement from me on the above. My point is only that when the Buddha says "mindful" he refers to the kusala state and not to a form of practice designed to bring the development of that kusala state. =============== > [RE:] There are two things that I am thinking of that I think relates to this. One is recent conversations about when one of the enlightenment factors becomes a "power," and can be summoned at any time. Obviously that only happens for the extremely advanced, but it still seems contradictory to the notion that there is no willful summoning of these abilities. =============== J: They are not contradictory. Our discussions here about the wilful summoning of kusala qualities are in the context of persons (such as ourselves) of relatively less developed levels of kusala. For such persons there can be no having of kusala by trying to bring it on. This would only be wishful thinking. =============== > [RE:] Secondly, I am thinking of the K. Sujin statement that has recently been discussed - that "sati should be there all the time." It doesn't matter about the "should" so much as the suggestion that sati *can* be there all the time. There is a suggestion beyond the "single moment" for sure there. =============== J: Agreed, and in fact even for the beginner (or the follower of other teachings) when there is kusala it will be a run of many, many moments of kusala (interspersed with moments of vipaka and moments of akusala also), except that the kusala will be of a relatively weak level, so no 'preponderance' of kusala. =============== > [RE:] So what does "arousing mindfulness" mean? This is being done, it doesn't just happen, so what is the doing involved? =============== J: It's a manner of speaking to describe the person for whom there is a preponderance of mindfulness. And I think the arousing being described here is not of mindfulness in general but of mindfulness with breathing as object in particular. As the commentary says: "Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-out-breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the neighbourhood of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to absorption; and because in a place not become a township it is easy for the meditator to lay hold of this subject of meditation, the Blessed One, pointing out the abode suitable for that, spoke the words, "Gone to the forest," and so forth." So it's not as though there's no mindfulness until seated in the forest. It's a matter of the higher the stage of development of mindfulness with breathing as object, the more likely it is that a quiet place will be sought for its further development. =============== > > J: When wholesome qualities are highly developed they may reach the stage of becoming a power (Pali: bala), at which stage they are very constant. > > [RE:] That makes a lot of sense, and takes away the sense that only each single citta in isolation is implicated by this practice. =============== J: Again, yes. The kusala quality becomes the natural state. So this is the starting point of what is to follow in this particular passage: a person for whom single cittas that are kusala in nature predominate. =============== > [RE:] Even though sati arises at each moment, or not, the development of satipatthana seems like it would be a progression towards more moments of sustained sati, and less of akusala. =============== J: Yes, agreed. And that progression occurs at a pace that is dependent on factors that are outside the control of the individual. =============== > [RE:] I think the Buddha makes clear in different passages that the breath is being used for both samatha and satipatthana development. That is clearly the goal in both anapanasati and satipatthana suttas, I think. =============== J: Agreed that in those suttas the person being described is a person for whom breathing is object of both samatha and insight. The potential goal for such a person is enlightenment with jhana as basis where the jhana has breathing as object. This is a special and (relatively) rare achievement, I believe. Good to have much to agree on for a change :-)) Jon #120330 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: "Further, in that territory of the Kuru people, the four classes bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." "Apica tasmi.m janapade catasso parisaa pakatiyaava satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaanuyogamanuyuttaa viharanti, antamaso daasakammakaraparijanaapi satipa.t.thaanappa.tisa.myuttameva katha.m kathenti. Udakatitthasuttakantana.t.thaanaadiisupi niratthakakathaa naama na pavattati. Sace kaaci itthii 'amma tva.m katara.m satipa.t.thaanabhaavana.m manasikarosii'ti pucchitaa 'na ki~ncii'ti vadati. Ta.m garahanti 'dhiratthu tava jiivita.m, jiivamaanaapi tva.m matasadisaa'ti. Atha na.m 'maa daani puna evamakaasii'ti ovaditvaa a~n~natara.m satipa.t.thaana.m ugga.nhaapenti. Yaa pana 'aha.m asuka.m satipa.t.thaana.m manasikaromii'ti vadati. Tassaa 'saadhu saadhuu'ti saadhukaara.m datvaa 'tava jiivita.m sujiivita.m, tva.m naama manussatta.m pattaa, tavatthaaya sammaasambuddho uppanno'tiaadiihi pasa.msanti..." N: "Practice, another loaded word. It has been given different interpretations, but it is the translation of the Pali pa.tipatti. I am thinking about it that when pariyatti is right it will lead to pa.tipatti and this again to pativedha." Scott: This is all true, yet I don't see that the word 'pa.tipatti' is given in the text in question. Please point it out if I have missed it or given the wrong Paa.li section. I can suppose that you are placed in a difficult position: two children arguing and coming to you to arbitrate, and you naturally step back. Wishing to be diplomatic you generalise. That is fine. I think it leaves the wrong impression to step back to generalities in this case. N: "As Phil wrote: 'In passing, would like to concur with Scott and suggest putting away the dictionary definitions of conventional meaning of grief etc. If we look at the Pali word only it will keep things closer to Dhamma..'" Scott: Again, correct, but unless the text in question contains 'pa.tipatti' then this is now a general statement but not one that pertains to the text itself. I do not see 'pa.tipatti' in the text in question - hence the above is a truism but not specific to the text (unless I am wrong about the presence of the word, which I easily could be). This is not about 'dictionary definitions.' Not that it matters, but I need to re-state, as I have had to with Sarah, that I am not into considering 'dictionary definitions' merely for the sake of doing so. Especially in this case, with an English term as 'loaded' as 'practice' I would think it important to see what in the Paa.li was translated in such a way. I know the difference between studying books and words and true study. I want to know the words in this case. N: "Scott, I read something in a recent post you wrote which I like: 'Learning about mental factors is learning that one's cherished ideas about things are likely wrong.' That is why I often repeat in my Cetasikas, this and this is different from what we mean by it in conventional language. We have to consider them thoroughly as they occur now. As to the text of the co. about the mothers praising and blaming I cannot come up with more than I wrote already. Every day I become more behind with the great number of posts." Scott: I can appreciate your being busy. I would like to know which part of the Paa.li text was translated as 'practice.' I don't mind what Rob.E. takes from it. There are however, as you mention from time to time, other readers. Scott. #120331 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Scott, Op 13-nov-2011, om 15:28 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Scott: This is all true, yet I don't see that the word 'pa.tipatti' > is given in the text in question. Please point it out if I have > missed it or given the wrong Paa.li section. ---- No, it is not in this text, but you used the word practice, that is why. Shall we then leave this thread if you don't mind? ------- Nina. #120332 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings nilovg Dear Phil, Op 13-nov-2011, om 10:58 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > KS: In the absolute sense as long as it's kusala or akusala it > comes from avijja, ignorance. > > Did I also hear that in paticca samupaddha, avijja stands for all > sankhara khanda, or for all defilements, or....? ------ N: As the root condition for being in the cycle. See my study of Vis. Ch XVII, 110, ff. Meritorious deeds done without the development of understanding will not lead to the eradication of defilements. One is bound to cling to an idea of self who performs kusala or who will have a happy rebirth. All passages about ignorance being a condition for kusala show the danger of ignorance. Ignorance conditions wrong view of self and it conceals the danger of being in the cycle of birth and death. Only right understanding of dhammas of the dhammas appearing at this moment can eventually eradicate ignorance. ---------- no Vis. 111: In this section it is explained that ignorance of dukkha causes someone to believe that the cycle of birth and death is happiness. Because of ignorance he performs kusala kamma, akusala kamma and imperturbable kamma. It is kamma that causes him to be reborn again and again. Text Vis 111.: And its state as a condition has already been given in the way beginning, 'For when unknowing--in other words, ignorance--of suffering, etc., is unabandoned in a man, owing firstly to his unknowing about suffering and about the past, etc., then he believes the suffering of the round of rebirths to be pleasant and he embarks upon the three kinds of formations, which are the cause of that very suffering' (par.62). ----- Reviewal of Text Vis 63.: he embarks upon the formation of merit of the kinds already stated, which is the condition for that very [suffering in change], like a moth that falls into a lamp's flame, and like the man who wants the drop of honey and licks the honey-smeared knife-edge... Reviewal of Text Vis. 63: Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of the sense desires, etc., with its results, [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and overcome by defilements, he embarks upon the formation of demerit that occurs in the three doors [of kamma], like a child who plays with filth, and like a man who wants to die and eats poison. ------- Vis. 112: 112. Moreover, there is this way of explanation as well: Now when a man is ignorant Of death and rebirth and the round, The characteristics of the formed, Dependently-arisen states, And in his ignorance he forms Formations of this triple kind, Then ignorance itself will be Condition for each of the three. ------- Nina. #120333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 12-nov-2011, om 18:15 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: I still do not understand why different types (kamma and vipaka) > of citta are mentioned instead of saying the type of citta is > determined by cetasika (and rupa). ----- N: Because Kh S speaks about characteristics that can be experienced now. Not the book, but awareness now. Then it all becomes more meaningful, but gradually so. Certainly, cetasikas condition citta, but can we experience this now? Do we know all the different cetasikas by our own experience? ----- Nina. #120334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pakatuupanissaya-paccaya (natural decisive support condition) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 12-nov-2011, om 11:28 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Can't all conditions included within pakatuupanissay-paccaya be > contained within the other 23 paccayas? I don't quite get it. ------ N: No, they cannot. Each type of condition is a different force. Natural decisive dependence condition is operating in a specific way. ------- > For example, I read that understanding dhamma (kusala) can > condition conceit (akusala) which I have a lot of these days. Why > is this in n.d.s.c? Why not individual moments of understanding > conditioning conceit by decisive support condition of object or > some other condition? Why n.d.s.c? ------- N: Pakati, naturally, U Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations: . And see the texts themselves of the Pa.t.thaana, we cannot change these. ------- Nina. #120335 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "No, it is not in this text, but you used the word practice, that is why..." Scott: It was in the commentary: "...'Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you *practice*?'..." N: "...Shall we then leave this thread if you don't mind?" Scott: We shall. I don't mind at all. Scott. #120336 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:02 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Scott, all, you wrote: 'I think you need some more context to structure your studies. Here is a bit from the Introductory Discourse of Buddhaghosa's commentary to The Dhammasanga.nii, Atthasaalinii (The Expositor):..snip D:thanks for the quotation .. and yes, you are right , I still miss the 'big picture' of a system , different to the sutta pitaka. For example I am still uncertain , whether the introduction of morality into the Law of Dependent Origination may not lead to a distraction of the 8fold Noble Path (training). with Metta Dieter #120337 From: "connie" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:11 am Subject: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nichiconn Dear Dieter, I am too lazy to go back thru the posts to answer them. Too many trees in the forest! I remember two in particular: 1. Your original list is fine... how they are grouped or the order might differ, but any complete list would still have the very same 52 factors/cetasikas. 2. While dosa is broadly defined in terms of hatred, there is also the idea that it is any "absence of delight of consciousness". (Book of Analysis, p471) Ashin Thittila, who translated that book, is also quoted (elsewhere) as having said: < It should be realized and remembered that the indirect enemy of compassion is grief; grief and sorrow not being compassion in the real sense of the word since they are morally weak states, whereas true compassion is morally strong and gives strength. Self-pity, being sorry for oneself, will do harm because such thoughts are of a selfish nature, and will be followed by harmful states of mind.> So now I am up to today, where you again question “whether the introduction of morality into the Law of Dependent Origination may not lead to a distraction of the 8fold Noble Path (training). >> Could you say more about what you mean by this? I’m confused by it. I keep thinking it doesn’t matter which part of the teaching we look at, it is all the same. peace, connie #120338 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:16 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi again, Scott, you wrote: Scott: Your dictionary hardly defines Dhamma, does it? I mean, why would you go to a worldly dictionary and suggest it even is trying to define a Paa.li word? And then suggest your dictionary (and your own understanding) to be superiour to Buddhaghosa's? Your dictionary defines grief from a non-Dhamma perspective. D:again, my dictionary, the Oxford Advanced American Dictionary defines the the term ' grief ' ('a feeling of great sadness, especially when someone dies') . 'Grief ' as an English translation of a Pali sutta source, refering to 'privation failure to obtain visible objects cognizable by the eye that are sought after' simply doesn't fit within this context, at least not with contempary understanding of the term. That has nothing to do with being superior , but with your choice of source to make a point. B.T.W. , Scott, allow me an open word: from time to time you use a style in your postings , which others receive as being offensive . I assume that you as a student of Abhidhamma are aware about the danger of akusala of the citta/cetasika ( e.g. wrong (=harsh/unkind) speech, aren't you? with Metta Dieter #120339 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:06 am Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving szmicio Dear Nina > Thanks for your good reminders. Lobha more often tha we ever thought! > I hope the books arrived. L: Yes, I've got Ruupas, Perfections, Conditions, Realities and Concepts. I've read the whole Conditions now and almost all Concepts and Realities. I enjoy the conditionality reminders, this is some kind of rest to know this is all conditioned, now. Even intelectual knowledge is so precious, this is a beginning. Sapaccaya, this is to be realised...now. Best wishes Lukas #120340 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:07 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...For example I am still uncertain, whether the introduction of morality into the Law of Dependent Origination may not lead to a distraction of the 8fold Noble Path (training)." Scott: This makes no sense, Dieter. Can you please explain this bit about 'the introduction of morality into the Law of Dependent Origination.' You've mentioned this more than once. Are you suggesting that the suttas don't refer to kusala and akusala? Your take on D.O. seems a bit confusing. And another thing, now that I'm thinking of it, weren't you aware that paticcasamuppaada refers to citta and cetasika? It is an instance of conditionality. Abhidhamma clarifies this in Pa.t.thaana, the seventh book. Nyanatiloka sort of clarifies this: "...Whereas the doctrine of impersonality, or anattā proceeds analytically, by splitting existence up into the ultimate constituent parts, into mere empty, unsubstantial phenomena or elements, the doctrine of dependent origination, on the other hand, proceeds synthetically, by showing that all these phenomena are, in some way or other, conditionally related with each other. In fact, the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka, as a whole, treats really of nothing but just these two doctrines: phenomenality - implying impersonality and conditionality of all existence. The former or analytical method is applied in Dhammasangani, the first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka; the latter or synthetical method, in Patthāna, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka..." Scott. #120341 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:11 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, D:"again, my dictionary..." My point is this, Dieter. Abhidhamma clarifies that what you take to mean 'grief' from an ordinary non-Dhamma perspective is one of the flavours of dosa and is dosa arising in the absence of that which is missed or grieved. Abhidhamma clarifies that 'grief' is not some form of 'compassion' as you suggest, but seems more some sort of reaction to attachment, desier - lobha. D: "B.T.W., Scott, allow me an open word: from time to time you use a style in your postings , which others receive as being offensive..." Scott: And? Scott. #120342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 13-nov-2011, om 20:06 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I've read the whole Conditions now and almost all Concepts and > Realities. I enjoy the conditionality reminders, this is some kind > of rest to know this is all conditioned, now. Even intelectual > knowledge is so precious, this is a beginning. Sapaccaya, this is > to be realised...now. ------- N: I am glad about what you write. I just heard on a Thai recording that there is no person, only paramattha dhammas. So good to hear this again and again. What 'someone' said or did has fallen away already, no more. A person is just citta, cetasika and ruupa. Too many quarrels in the world, but understanding this would help. ------- Nina. #120343 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:00 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa philofillet Hi all I wrote, "the Kalama sutta....which I remain dubious of." I should clarify that I am of course not dubious of the sutta but rather modern interpretation of it. Phil #120344 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:17 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa truth_aerator Hello Phil, >P:I wrote, "the Kalama sutta....which I remain dubious of." >I should clarify that I am of course not dubious of the sutta but >rather modern interpretation of it. >=========================================================== How do you propose it should be interpreted? Personally I do not find anything that cannot be experienced to be relevant to cessation of mental Dukkha. Suffering lies within the experiential, and thus its solution lies in the experiential. Abstract things are irrelevant when it comes to experiential suffering in the here and now. With best wishes, Alex #120345 From: "connie" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:42 am Subject: Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... nichiconn dear Howard, >Howard: Just a thought: Even kusala mind states, in the technical sense of 'kusala', are conditioned by sense-of-self and ignorance. Only inoperative causal states, kiriya cittas - neutral and unaffected by ignorance, and resultant states unconditioned by prior avijja-defiled kamma are free of defilement. This is not to say, of course, that wholesome states aren't superior to unwholesome ones. (BTW, if I'm not mistaken, kiriya cittas can occur from time to time even in worldlings.) > c: It's probably better if we don't call kiriya or vipaka cittas 'causal states'. I think it's only the types called avajjana / adverting & votthapana / determining that are kiriya cittas for the non-arahant. "I think" because I'm not all that clear on the difference between those types, other than which door they're at or are. For the arahant, also the javanas are kiriyas. connie #120346 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:58 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa philofillet Hi Alex I was referring to how people have latched on to "do not go by the word of any authority" or however it is put. It has led people to feel comfortable placing their interpretations and pet theories above the explanations of the arahants who elucidated the tipitika, which is absurd, plain and simple. You disagree. You think you understand Dhamma better than Buddhagosa. Enough said. Of course understanding can only be develop by cittas that are cognizing (experiencing, if you prefer) objects. You have read here a long time but like to insist that people say otherwise, that we are all about talking about words and not about bhavana. That puts your ability to concentrate on what people have written to you enough to comprehend written English in doubt, not to mention your ability to understand Dhamma. You've been away for a few days, perhaps more meditation? When meditators are absent from DSG it seems sensible to me, perhaps they are actually meditating instead of promoting it on the internet, that's what I sincerely hope. No further comment, thanks. Phil #120347 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:07 am Subject: words vs experience truth_aerator Hi Phil, >P:I was referring to how people have latched on to "do not go by the >word of any authority" or however it is put. >==================================================== How do you believe "do not go by the word of any authority" should be interpreted? It clearly says something. If the Authority (which one?) would state that "hot is cold" while the actual experience is that "hot is hot" what would you choose and why? >P:You think you understand Dhamma better than Buddhagosa. >==================================== You are simply guessing and generalizing. With best wishes, Alex #120348 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 philofillet Hi Chuck > As a former devote Roman Catholic; "hate" was/is not in this sentient being vocabulary... ph: Interesting phrasing. I think "hate" is not in the Buddha's vocabulary eitger. Dosa (aversion) is different than hate. I think hate must be based on a story of people and things. Dosa arises in response to sense door and mind door objects when there is unwise attention. Do you know of the time when the Buddha stepped on a rock splinter? There was physical pain, of course, but tgere was no unpleasant mental feeling, dosa didn't arise. I think that is what is meant by a mind free of hate in a Buudhist sense. Not us. As for having friendly feelings towards former enemies, great! But I don't think that is being free from hate... > there was always 'compassion" to all... Ph: Good to remember tgat compassion must be free from unpleasant mental feeling. If the suffering of someone makes us sad, that is not compassion, it is senor dosa again. > Today, it is the Brahma-vihara to all... ph: All the time? Really? Isn't it more honest to say those friendly feelings come and go? Phil #120349 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 philofillet Hi again Chuck > ph: Interesting phrasing. I think "hate" is not in the Buddha's vocabulary eitger. Dosa (aversion) is different than hate. I think hate must be based on a story of people and things. Dosa arises in response to sense door and mind door objects when there is unwise attention. Correction. Of course thinking about people and things can cause dosa, aversion, and yes, I guess when the object of dosa is a person, an impression of "I hate tgat person" will result due to wrong view. But in all the suttas, I can't recall anyone saying "I hate (insert name.). I think there is always understanding even amoung people who disagreed with the Buddha that aversion is always a monentary dhamma, arising due to conditions. Lots of those moments sometimes , sure, at least for this middle aged bag of sentient Anglo-Quebecois bones! Phil #120350 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving rjkjp1 Hi Lukas Same feeling I had over 20 years ago when I first read Nina's book on conditions. robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > Op 13-nov-2011, om 20:06 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > I've read the whole Conditions now and almost all Concepts and > > Realities. I enjoy the conditionality reminders, this is some kind > > of rest to know this is all conditioned, now. Even intelectual > > knowledge is so precious, this is a beginning. Sapaccaya, this is > > to be realised...now. > ------- > N: I am glad about what you write. I just heard on a Thai recording > that there is no person, only paramattha dhammas. So good to hear > this again and again. What 'someone' said or did has fallen away > already, no more. A person is just citta, cetasika and ruupa. Too > many quarrels in the world, but understanding this would help. > ------- > Nina. > > > > > #120351 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:56 pm Subject: Letters from Ivan 7: On seeing and visible object philofillet Hi all Here is Ivan writing as Matt Roke on that most central of topics... Phil > Hi Howard and all, > > Let me clarify in more detail what I inadequately said earlier. > > ====================== > ====================== > > Matt> Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernible, only > slightly discernible or not discernible at all, the only realities are > seeing > and visible object. *Light*, *void of light* and *darkness*, along with > black > and colours, are concepts experienced in the mind door. > > Howard> the concept of (relative) darkness or (degees of) dimness appears to > be > well based in directly observed phenomena. So I find that I remain less > than fully convinced on the matter. > > It may well be the case, and probably *is* the case, that absences in > general > are known only through the mind door, but that in itself does not make them > concept only. > > ======================= > > For citta to arise at the eye door there must be an object to experience. > That > object has characteristics, which the citta then experiences. This is > followed by > thinking, which gives rise to concepts about the characteristics and names > for > them. The conceptional name in English is *colour* and *light*. However, the > characteristics of the visible object experienced by a citta is not the same > as the > concept of *colour* and *light* that is experienced by the many cittas of > thinking. > > Therefore I made mention of seeing visible object and thinking (concepts > experienced in the mind door) of *colour* and *light*. > > I don't advocate that we should always avoid using these words when talking > about visible object, however I think it helps to do so when discussing the > subject you have brought up because we need to understand the realties > that are there. > > The characteristics of visible object vary. And whether they are clearly or > slightly > discernable, the citta arises at the eye door and experiences them as > visible object. > It experiences them for the reality that they are, not as being dim or > darker or in > darkness. That happens in thinking where there is comparison with visible > objects > that have different characteristics. > > Shaded, dark or black areas are characteristics of visible objects. A > visible object > may have no such characteristic (a brightly lit white room) or it may be > comprised > entirely of that characteristic (a pitch black room). > > A citta can only arise at the eye door if there is an object to experience. > In a place > where there is absolutely no light the object it experiences is what we > conceptionally > refer to as dark, darkness or void of light etc. > > For there to be hearing there must also be an object for the citta to > experience, so if > there is no audible object (which we call sound) then the citta will not > arise at the > ear door. > > When there is an absence of sound it is because there is no audible object > for > the citta to experience. When there is an absence of light there is still an > object for > the citta to experience but it only experiences it for the object reality > that it is, not > as an absence of light, that happens in the mind door. > > This is how I understand it to be. > > Much appreciate your question, I found it most valuable. > > MattR > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect yourself from junk e-mail: > http://microsoft.ninemsn.com.au/protectfromspam.aspx > #120352 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:52 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I wrote, "the Kalama sutta....which I remain dubious of." > > I should clarify that I am of course not dubious of the sutta but rather modern interpretation of it. What is the modern interpretation of the Kalama Sutta that you are dubious of? And what is the correct interpretation in your view? Thanks, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #120353 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa philofillet Hi Rob E ( and Howard) > What is the modern interpretation of the Kalama Sutta that you are dubious of? And what is the correct interpretation in your view? Ph: The modern approach seems fuelled by a gung ho go for it let's make the most of this one lifetime yes we can overconfidence. Such a lack of humility, such a lack of appreciating how deep the Dhamma is. Or at least that is how it seems to me based on what I've seen here and at another more pipular site. By the way, for the sake of avoiding further ugliness, I will be steering clear of your posts as thoroughly as possible, so please respond to the group rather than me directly, at least for now. I know you're a good person but until you get serious about studying Dhamma I can only get distracted, irritated and eventually driven-to-harsh speech by your chatty Dhamma. Same goes for Howard for somewhat different reasons, just a matter of intolerance on my part, and I know it's immature. But to avoid bad behaviour I will avoid reading your posts. Thanks. Phil #120354 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:13 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E ( and Howard) > > > What is the modern interpretation of the Kalama Sutta that you are dubious of? And what is the correct interpretation in your view? > > Ph: The modern approach seems fuelled by a gung ho go for it let's make the most of this one lifetime yes we can overconfidence. Such a lack of humility, such a lack of appreciating how deep the Dhamma is. Or at least that is how it seems to me based on what I've seen here and at another more popular site. I don't see this as being very specific to the Kalama Sutta. > By the way, for the sake of avoiding further ugliness, I will be steering clear of your posts as thoroughly as possible, so please respond to the group rather than me directly, at least for now. I know you're a good person but until you get serious about studying Dhamma I can only get distracted, irritated and eventually driven-to-harsh speech by your chatty Dhamma. Same goes for Howard for somewhat different reasons, just a matter of intolerance on my part, and I know it's immature. But to avoid bad behaviour I will avoid reading your posts. As I said before, you can answer what you wish, and not anything else, but if I see a Dhamma issue raised that I think is worthy of discussing, I will ask you about it. My two questions here were not chatty at all, just two relevant pointy questions, neither of which you answered. Your first answer was not specific to Kalama as far as I can tell, and you didn't attempt to answer the second question - what do you believe the correct interpretation is of the Kalama sutta. As for my "chatty Dhamma," most of my posts are serious investigations into Dhamma - not that I expect you've read any or certainly not most of them, and your views about my study are also ignorant. Your prejudice is fine if it serves you, but I doubt it does. Anyway, do as you wish, ignore my posts, respond with the usual steretypes you have of me regardless of what I actually say, whatever works for you. I'll speak up when I feel there's something to look into, respond however you like. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #120355 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:53 pm Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project kenhowardau Hi Howard, I'm still days behind in my reading, so my comments on this thread will be out of date. ----------- > HCW: About this (IMO-excellent) project: It ain't underway! What I'm seeing is just more and more of the usual "I'm right, and you're wrong" ping-pong discussions, with no genuine studying and delving going on - and no learning underway. (Learning, BTW, doesn't require accepting and believing, but it does require coming to actually understand what is being taught!) It seems that there is more concern with winning disputes and "taking sides" than learning to see how Abhidhamma and details about the cetasikas in particular pertain to the actual experience of what occurs "in the moment," which is my understanding of the purpose of this project. Instead, it's just more of the same old nonsense going on! This is a great shame, as far as I'm concerned, a missed opportunity. I hope that it changes soon. ----------- KH: Aren't these disagreements inevitable? Some of us understand the world to be a single moment of nama and rupa. Others of us understand the world to be a place where progress can attained at a future time (i.e., outside the present moment). With those two fundamentally different understandings of the world, every word of the Dhamma must inevitably be understood differently. Ken H #120356 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:29 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, Howard, Phil, Pt & all, More daily life examples of ahirika and anottappa: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote (#120216): > Re dosa, the fact that it hurts means we want to get rid of it, lobha lingers cuz we enjoy it more. To be honest, I usually get pleasure out of re-reading my sarcastic posts. Now $there$ is a good topic for the ahiri/anotoppa thread! .... S: Yes, for sure. Bad enough to be sarcastic on the spur of the moment, without enjoying re-reading one's akusala. No hiri and ottappa, no shame in the akusala at such moments, no seeing the harm. But then, what kind of reaction do we have to such comments? When there is akusala, 'righteous indignation' or 'shock' about the other's akusala, there is no metta or compassion at such moments. So, lots of ahiri and anottappa as you (Phil) honestly point out - all round. We can also see how cittas change so rapidly - moments of akusala pleasure as Phil mentions, with ahiri and anottappa, followed by moments of kusala when at least this is understood as akusala. But then, is it all taken for "Me" and "him" and the "other"? If so, more akusala, more ahiri and anottappa..... . I'm also reminded that the proximate condition for metta is seeing the danger of dosa or aversion. From K.Sujin's book on Metta, transl by Nina: >When anger-bound, man Dhamma cannot see; When anger conquers man, blind darkness reigns. A man in wrath finds pleasure in bad deeds, As in good deeds; yet later when his wrath Is spent, he suffers like one scorched by fire: As flame atop of smoke, he staggers on, When anger spreads, when youth becomes incensed. No shame, no fear of blame, no reverence In speech has he whose mind is anger rent; No island of support he ever finds. The deeds which bring remorse, far from right states, These I'll proclaim. Listen how they come about. A man in anger will his father kill, In wrath his very mother will he slay, Arahats and ordinary men alike he will kill. By his mother's care man sees the light Of day, yet common average folk, in wrath, Will still destroy that fount of life. Self-mirrored all these beings are; each one Loves self most. In wrath the ordinary men Kill self, by divers forms distraught: by sword Men kill themselves; in madness poison take; And in some hollow of a mountain glen They hide, and bind themselves with ropes and die. Thus ruin runs in wake of wrath, and they Who act in wrath, perceive not that their deeds, Destroying life, bring death for themselves. Thus lurking in the heart is Maara's snare In anger's loathsome form. But root it out By insight, zeal, right view, restraint; the wise Would one by one eradicate each akusala, And thus in Dhamma would he train himself: Be not our minds obscured, but anger freed And freed from trouble, greed and envy. The well trained, the canker-freed. Become, When anger is stilled, wholly, completely cool.< .... * >P: And then concern for the well-being of the person I'm being sarcastic too may arise out of nowhere, very good example of that when I was writing to Alex last week, anatta, due to conditions, .... S: Yes, anatta for sure.... do we know what will be conditioned to arise at the next moment? Did we know what seeing would see now? .... >P: I am sure that your entreaties for gentler speech are in there somewhere, but surely a very weak voice among all the akusala factors. But, again, kudos for your effort. .... S: (That was to Pt). Like the Buddha's Teachings that fell on the arid ground in the Fields simile, we never know when the efforts will bear fruit, like with all Matt's/Ivan's good posts you're re-'sowing'.... Metta Sarah ===== #120357 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:35 pm Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? sarahprocter... Dear Pt & Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > pt: "...8. There's the sutta where the Buddha defines the circumstances in which he speaks to others - there being something like 5-6 parameters, from memory, like the right time, being agreeable to the other person, being kindly spoken, of benefit, etc. And basically all of the parameters have to be fulfilled, including the other person's frame of mind, otherwise the Buddha doesn't speak. Perhaps someone can locate this sutta..." > > Scott: I'll wait until you do, and discuss it at that point. I don't know yet what you intend to impute from the sutta, so there isn't anything to respond to here. ..... MN21, perhaps. Here quoted from K.Sujin's book, "Metta": "If we see the disadvantage of akusala citta and akusala kamma we will develop metta in order to diminish the accumulation of the different akusala dhammas. We should consider the benefit of patience, patience for the development of kusala and perseverance with it, so that akusala can be eliminated. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, no. 21, Discourse on the Parable of the Saw) that the Buddha, while staying near Saavatthii, at the Jeta Grove, said to the monks: "There are, monks, these five ways of speaking in which others when speaking to you might speak: at a right time or at a wrong time; according to fact or not according to fact; gently or harshly; on what is connected with the goal or on what is not connected with the goal; with a mind of friendliness or full of hatred. Monks, when speaking to others you might speak at a right time or at a wrong time; monks, when speaking to others you might speak according to fact or not according to fact; monks, when speaking to others you might speak about what is connected with the goal or about what is not connected with the goal; monks, when speaking to others you might speak with a mind of friendliness or full of hatred. Herein, monks, you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither will our minds become perverted nor will we utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will we dwell, with a mind of friendliness, void of hatred; and we will dwell having suffused that person with a mind of friendliness; and, beginning with him, we will dwell having suffused the whole world with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, widespread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.'' This is how you must train yourselves, monks." **** Metta Sarah ===== #120358 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:55 pm Subject: The sweet tip of anger! sarahprocter... Dear Friends, From Vism IX, 93 on mettaa: "As to characteristic, etc., loving kindness is characterized here as promoting the aspect of welfare. Its function is to prefer welfare. It is manifested as the removal of annoyance. Its proximate cause is seeing lovableness in beings. It succeeds when it makes ill-will subside, and it fails when it produces (selfish) affection." Here's another extract from K.Sujin's book, "Metta", translated by Nina. "When we begin to develop mettaa it is necessary to first see the disadvantage of dosa, aversion or anger. Dosa is the dhamma which is opposed to mettaa. Whenever dosa arises it is evident that mettaa is lacking. Dosa is the dhamma (reality) which is harsh, it causes harm to ourselves and to others. When dosa arises it overwhelms the citta, it inflames citta like a fire. The destructive power of dosa causes people to harm others through body and speech, in various degrees in accordance with its strength. We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagaatha -vagga, I, The Devas, 8, Slaughter suttas, §1) that a deva asked the Buddha: What must we slay if we would live happily? What must we slay if we would weep no more? What is it above all other things, whereof The slaughter you approve, Gotama? The Buddha answered: Wrath must you slay if you would live happily, Wrath must you slay if you would weep no more. Of anger, deva, with its poisoned root And fevered climax which is sweet, That is the slaughter by the ariyans praised; That must you slay to weep no more. This shows that when anger arises there is disturbance of mind, we are unhappy. We have unkind thoughts or even malevolence, we may harm the person we are angry with through body or speech so that he will suffer. We can harm him in different ways, for example by violence, by hitting him and causing him to suffer bodily injuries. Or we may utter harsh, fierce words. When we have injured someone else through body and speech we may be satisfied with what we have done. The Buddha said that wrath has a poisonous root and a sweet tip. The feeling of satisfaction we have when we have done harm to someone else is compared to the sweet tip of anger, but its root is poisoned. Each person will receive the result of his action. When dosa conditions someone to do harm to another person there is akusala kamma which has a poisonous root: akusala kamma produces an unpleasant result for the person who performs it in the form of loss and other unpleasant experiences. It can cause rebirth in unhappy planes such as a hell plane, the plane of ghosts (petas) or demons (asuras), or rebirth as an animal, depending on the degree of that akusala kamma." **** Metta Sarah ===== #120359 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:07 pm Subject: Metta: so anatta.... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Last one on Metta for now..... (lots, lots more in U.P.) As Phil pointed out, all dhammas are so anatta. We may learn what is beneficial, but it entirely depends on conditions what will arise from moment to moment. Another extract from "Metta" by K.Sujin, posted before by Nina: The Path of Purification. "38. But if he is still unable to stop it this way, then he should try resolution into elements. How? 'Now you who have gone forth into homelessness, when you are angry with him, what is it you are angry with? Is it head hairs you are angry with? Or body hairs? Or nails? ... Or is it urine you are angry with? Or, alternatively, is it the earth element in the head hairs, etc. you are angry with? Or the water element? Or the fire element? Or is it the air element you are angry with? Or among the five aggregates or the twelve bases or the eighteen elements with respect to which this venerable one is called by such and such a name, which then, is it the materiality aggregate you are angry with? Or the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, the consciousness aggregate you are angry with? Or is it the eye base you are angry with? or the visible-object base you are angry with? ... Or the mind base you are angry with? Or the mental-object base you are angry with? Or is it the eye-element you are angry with? Or the visible-object element?? Or the eye-consciousness element? ... Or the mind element? Or the mental-object element? Or the mind-consciousness element you are angry with?' For when he tries the resolution into elements, his anger finds no foothold, like a mustard seed on the point of an awl or a painting on air."< **** Metta Sarah ====== (III, 358), or the "Chaddanta Jaataka'' (V, 514). They can apply what they read in the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha taught the Dhamma out of compassion to his followers so that they would carefully consider it and put it into practice.> #120360 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:40 pm Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project sarahprocter... Dear Dieter & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: yes, I should have thought that all cetasikas arise and cease (acc. to condition). > My problem to see a lack of something, defined as absent to arise , is solved when I replace 'ahirika ' e.g. by 'indecency ' (Oxf.Advanced Dictionary Amercian [uncountable] "behavior that is thought to be morally or sexually offensive " and 'anottoppa ' by ' (as) bold as brass(informal) without showing any respect, shame, or fear' .... S: I think "indecent" is rather good. Never mind about the obvious gross behaviour, but when akusala arises now, is there any awareness, any understanding of its "indecent" nature? We read about 'lack of respect' as the proximate condition for ottappa, and again this has to apply to the ottappa arising with any akusala citta. There is a 'lack of respect' for kusala at such moments. Even now as we look out of the window in ignorance, there is a 'lack of respect', a 'lack of decency', a lack of shame of such ignorance. As we know, as understanding grows, more and more akusala, more and more subtle akusala has to become apparent. If it's not apparent, it can never be known. .... > > You mentioned (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 160: 'ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilements; it is like a pig that does not > abhor dung. Anottappa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself.' > I like too 'Acariya Buddhaghosa illustrates the difference between the two with the simile of an iron rod smeared with excrement at one end and heated to a glow at the other end: hiri is like one's disgust at grabbing the rod in the place where it is smeared with excrement, ottappa is like one's fear of grabbing it in the place where it is red hot' ( quoted by Bhikkhu Bodhi) .... S: Yes, they're all great similes. The pig that 'does not abhor dung' again refers to all kinds of akusala, not just those involved in "behavior that is thought to be morally or sexually offensive ". Now we're discussing dhammas, but as Phil has pointed out, there are kusala and akusala cittas arising in between the sense door processes. Is there any "abhoring" of the "dung"? ... > As an example in our daily life , we may encounter ahirika and and anottappa in rude writings (wrong speech) , posted on the list , as a type of akusala kamma ... S: This is true, but actually, the only ahirika and anottappa, the only akusala cittas that can ever be known are those arising now, not those we take for being the others'. When we think about the others' rude speech or lack of hiri and ottappa, the only reality is the thinking. Is it thinking with kusala cittas, with metta and compassion or with akusala cittas, with annoyance for example? When it's with annoyance, there is ahirika and anottappa which can be gradually understood, even if just in theory now. Again, not mine, not yours, not anyone else's - just conditioned dhammas. Btw, on the order for the CDL project (as in the subject heading), I think as Chief Chef you may introduce the cetasikas in any order you like. It'll add spice and artistic flair to the presentation to have an unconventional order. (Reminds me of when we first moved to Hong Kong and were introduced to popular hotel buffets here - we'd be surprised to see families often starting with desserts!). Thanks again for 'leading' the discussions which can help us all to reflect further. Metta Sarah ==== #120361 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: Re: Metta: so anatta.... philofillet Hi Sarah, Rob E, others Metta is interesting, it does arise. I really enjoyed (in a kusala way) seeing it arise when I was writing to Alex last week. In my life away from the internet tgere is a lot of it, I'm Mr. Friendly. However for some years, consistently, the greatest aversion tgat arises about people is, clearly and without doubt, always related to Dhamna. An indication of how intense the attachment is. Spme would say that is very "unbuddhist" as if the point of Dhamma were to be nice. But it is true that non-harmfulness is important and I heard A.Sujin praise the form of dana that is "don't cause the unpleasant moment" so as I was saying to Rob E I am from today putting the message board on the simplified format where the addresse's name doesn't appear. I will only read messages from people who don't (for reasons beyond contrul) induce harsh speech. That's best for now I think. If Rob E addresses a post to me I won't know from now on, so please understand when I fail to reply. Phil #120362 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:51 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D:not sure .. mourning about losing a beloved friend connects with aversion? how about a connection with compassion? .... S: You may like to read the follow discussion with K.Sujin on this point which Nina quoted (#85216): **** "Question: What is the proximate cause for the arising of mettaa? Khun Sujin: Seeing the danger of dosa, aversion or hate. Question: Can there be mettaa for what is not alive? Khun Sujin: That is impossible. Mettaa, karunå (compassion), muditaa (sympathetic joy) and upekkhaa (equanimity), which are the "four divine abidings" (brahma-vihaaras), must have as object beings or people. Thus there cannot be mettaa for what is not a living being. However, as regards dosa, aversion, there can be aversion not only towards beings, but also towards things or circumstances. Question: Can mettaa arise just after seeing visible object? Khun Sujin: Mettaa has beings as object. When you see a small child can there not be mettaa? How will you act when there is mettaa? You may speak in a kind way, you may help the child to cross the street or you may give it a sweet. This is the way to develop mettaa. We can realize ourselves to what extent mettaa is already developed. We cannot expect mettaa to arise if we do not know its characteristic. Question: What is the difference between mettaa which arises just after seeing and mettaa which arises while we are thinking? Khun Sujin: When you see beings and people and you are annoyed you can be aware of this. After seeing there may be akusala or there may be mettaa. When there is mettaa you consider the other person as a friend, you wish for his happiness and want to do everything which is beneficial for him. You feel happy and cheerful while you think of his wellbeing, you may smile and you will not behave in any way which will make him unhappy. Also when you give him something you can do that in such a way that it truly makes him happy.There are many ways of giving things to others. Some people give in such a way that the other person feels no joy when he receives something. When mettaa has already become more developed, when it has become stronger, it conditions our actions and speech and also our way of thinking about other people. Even when we do not see other people we can think of them with kindness. We can think of promoting their wellbeing and happiness, we can consider ways to help particular persons, to support them in different ways. Then there is mettå without the need to recite texts. Reciting texts on mettaa is actually not so difficult, but truly developing mettaa is difficult. This cannot be accomplished by reciting texts. As I said before, there must be sati-sampaja~n~na in daily life which knows precisely the characteristic of mettaa. It must know precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta. ****** S: I'd also like to take this post to mention for all those experiencing mourning, as we all will do again and again, that there is a helpful selecting of past posts saved in U.P. under "Death - mourning". Metta Sarah ==== #120363 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:17 pm Subject: Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Dieter), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > By the way, I was going to post about this. In a discussion I heard a Thai woman ask A.Sujin about "old kamma," referring to something that had come to have a wrong understanding in Thai popular Buddhism. It was explained that old kamma was "any past kamma." But my understanding had been based on above, that "old kamma" was vipaka. .... S: I think you're referring to a discussion (in Banares at a guess) on ahosi kamma - past kamma. People mistakenly take it to mean inoperative kamma, kamma that won't bring results, whereas As was stressing it just means 'past' kamma. (see "ahosi kamma [or kamma-ahosi] in U.P.) In the sutta, the 'old kamma' refers to the results of past kamma. So vipaka cittas now, such as seeing and hearing, are the results of past kamma. Not only vipaka cittas, but also rupas such as eye-sense and ear-sense are conditioned by past kamma. ... >Could anyone who heard that talk and remembers what I am referring to clarify when you have a moment? Thanks. I guess just different meanings of "old kamma." .... S: Without past kamma, ahosi kamma, no life now. Metta Sarah p.s in haste, so let me know if anything else. ==== #120364 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:43 pm Subject: Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) philofillet Hi Sarah > S: I think you're referring to a discussion (in Banares at a guess) on ahosi kamma - past kamma. People mistakenly take it to mean inoperative kamma, kamma that won't bring results, whereas As was stressing it just means 'past' kamma. (see "ahosi kamma [or kamma-ahosi] in U.P.) Ph: That seems pretty clear. > In the sutta, the 'old kamma' refers to the results of past kamma. So vipaka cittas now, such as seeing and hearing, are the results of past kamma. Not only vipaka cittas, but also rupas such as eye-sense and ear-sense are conditioned by past kamma. > S: Without past kamma, ahosi kamma, no life now. Ph: All the past kamma, and all the vipaka, all those dhammas that we have wanted to much and got, all those useless dhammas. The only useful dhamma is the one that has arisen right...missed it..right.... damn gone again...right....oh screw it! phil #120365 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pakatuupanissaya-paccaya (natural decisive support condition) philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your feedback. > > Can't all conditions included within pakatuupanissay-paccaya be > > contained within the other 23 paccayas? I don't quite get it. > ------ > N: No, they cannot. Each type of condition is a different force. > Natural decisive dependence condition is operating in a specific way. Ph: It is all so complex, a bit beyond me. But as Lukas said today "I enjoy the conditionality reminders, this is some kind of rest to know this is all conditioned, now." Reading this book, the general flavour of anattaness, that is a great gift in itself. Understanding the details can come gradually, to some degree, more or less. Phil #120366 From: "philip" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings philofillet HI Nina Thank you for your feedback. > See my study of Vis. Ch XVII, 110, ff. Ph: One of these days! I looked in the files section at the Vism project file, but couldn't seem to find much of anything there. I will search the archives... > no Vis. 111: > In this section it is explained that ignorance of dukkha causes > someone to believe that the cycle of birth and death is happiness. > Because of ignorance he performs kusala kamma, akusala kamma and > imperturbable kamma. It is kamma that causes him to be reborn again > and again. Ph: I am glad that A.Sujin helped make this clear to me, that having an attachment to the idea of doing good in this life, of so little use when one considers all the lifetimes that have been, and are to come. Only understanding opens the door out. Thanks again. You have a lot of posts to answer all the time, I am going to take a little break from asking for a few weeks. I have a non-Dhamma related book I will read and discuss with my brother, to keep in touch with him better...when is the last time I read a book other than Dhamma? A bit odd, that.... Phil #120367 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... sarahprocter... Hi Phil, >________________________________ >From: philip >Metta is interesting, it does arise. I really enjoyed (in a kusala way) seeing it arise when I was writing to Alex last week. In my life away from the internet there is a lot of it, I'm Mr. Friendly. .... S: yes, I know and I'm quite sure all your students appreciate it a lot. .... >However for some years, consistently, the greatest aversion tgat arises about people is, clearly and without doubt, always related to Dhamna. An indication of how intense the attachment is. Some would say that is very "unbuddhist" as if the point of Dhamma were to be nice. .... S: I think it's very understandable and perhaps related to a lack of confidence or doubt about the Path? I remember in the mid-70s,when I lived in London, having dosa if I went to a Buddhist talk that was full of wrong view or a yoga class in which a teacher was expounding some nonsense. I think that simply, the more confidence there is in the understanding of the presently appearing reality, the less it matters what anyone else thinks or says - just conditioned dhammas. We know the seeing is conditioned now, the hearing, the thinking and so on. One example I remember learning from - I used to stay with K.Sujin and her father in Bangkok. KS would say she liked to have me stay because I discussed the Dhamma with her father and we got on very well together - he was rather like Han*, with a great sense of humour too. He very seldom listened to his daughter - too much attachment, I expect! He would listen to other Thai meditation teachers on TV instead and this would play loudly throughout the house. I once asked KS if it bothered her at all, but she said it didn't - just different accumulations. She never tried to dissuade him. .... >But it is true that non-harmfulness is important and I heard A.Sujin praise the form of dana that is "don't cause the unpleasant moment" .... .... S: It is understanding that will 'gradually work its way'. We had a friend in Bangkok who seemed to have good understanding of the teachings but would get very angry with others during discussions. KS said that if it was real understanding, it wouldn't be like this. Well, it's a slow path for us all, it takes time to 'sink into the bones'. Meanwhile whatever dhamma arises, whatever intentions there are, whether we turn right or left, it all depends on conditions. Patience, courage and good cheer as Azita always reminds us.... Metta Sarah * p.s. Han told me his house has been fine in Bangkok in case anyone has been concerned. ==== #120368 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings sarahprocter... Hi Phil, >________________________________ >From: philip >> See my study of Vis. Ch XVII, 110, ff. > >Ph: One of these days! I looked in the files section at the Vism project file, but couldn't seem to find much of anything there. I will search the archives... > ... S: See Larry's directory: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55332 (In U.P. under "Vism - Larry's Directory) Individual posts have been put under particular topics mostly. Metta Sarah ==== #120369 From: "philip" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings philofillet Hi Sarah > S: See Larry's directory: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55332 > (In U.P. under "Vism - Larry's Directory) > Individual posts have been put under particular topics mostly. > Excellent, thanks. I talk the talk, let's see if I can walk the walk and do some serious studying. You can say different inclinations or whatever to let Rob E off the hook, but I'm not going to use that excuse.. Phil #120370 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pakatuupanissaya-paccaya (natural decisive support condition) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 14-nov-2011, om 12:06 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Reading this book, the general flavour of anattaness, that is a > great gift in itself. Understanding the details can come gradually, > to some degree, more or less. ------- N: And most important, tasting the flavour of anattaness now. It is not in the book! Nina. #120371 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings nilovg Dear Phil, Op 14-nov-2011, om 12:18 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > when is the last time I read a book other than Dhamma? A bit odd, > that.... ----- N: I also read non-dhamma books and there is also Dhamma in such books. Why? Daily life. ------ Nina. #120372 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 11/13/2011 5:42:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Howard, >Howard: Just a thought: Even kusala mind states, in the technical sense of 'kusala', are conditioned by sense-of-self and ignorance. Only inoperative causal states, kiriya cittas - neutral and unaffected by ignorance, and resultant states unconditioned by prior avijja-defiled kamma are free of defilement. This is not to say, of course, that wholesome states aren't superior to unwholesome ones. (BTW, if I'm not mistaken, kiriya cittas can occur from time to time even in worldlings.) > c: It's probably better if we don't call kiriya or vipaka cittas 'causal states'. ------------------------------------------- HCW: I agree that there could be some confusion in calling kiriya cittas "causal," but I think that they ARE that as opposed to states that are consequences of kusala, akusala, and kiriya cittas. (Kiriya cittas are much along the lines of "defilement-freed kammic states".) As for vipaka cittas, I do *not* call them "causal states," their being kammically resultant (instead of kammically causal) states, though, of course it should be added that even they can and do serve as conditions. (There is no dhamma that does not serve as a condition.) ---------------------------------------------- I think it's only the types called avajjana / adverting & votthapana / determining that are kiriya cittas for the non-arahant. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Maybe so. You would know better than I. ----------------------------------------------- "I think" because I'm not all that clear on the difference between those types, other than which door they're at or are. For the arahant, also the javanas are kiriyas. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Yes, that makes sense. Impulsions without basis in sense of self, grasping, or pushing away. ------------------------------------------------ connie ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120373 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:40 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Scott, you wrote: (Scott, allow me an open word: from time to time you use a style in your postings , which others receive as being offensive . I assume that you as a student of Abhidhamma are aware about the danger of akusala of the citta/cetasika ( e.g. wrong (=harsh/unkind) speech, aren't you? Scott: And? D: hm, you mean : ..and deserving some praise for providing the list with an example of ahirika and anottappa in daily life .. ? with Metta Dieter #120374 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/14/2011 2:56:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, I'm still days behind in my reading, so my comments on this thread will be out of date. ----------- > HCW: About this (IMO-excellent) project: It ain't underway! What I'm seeing is just more and more of the usual "I'm right, and you're wrong" ping-pong discussions, with no genuine studying and delving going on - and no learning underway. (Learning, BTW, doesn't require accepting and believing, but it does require coming to actually understand what is being taught!) It seems that there is more concern with winning disputes and "taking sides" than learning to see how Abhidhamma and details about the cetasikas in particular pertain to the actual experience of what occurs "in the moment," which is my understanding of the purpose of this project. Instead, it's just more of the same old nonsense going on! This is a great shame, as far as I'm concerned, a missed opportunity. I hope that it changes soon. ----------- KH: Aren't these disagreements inevitable? Some of us understand the world to be a single moment of nama and rupa. Others of us understand the world to be a place where progress can attained at a future time (i.e., outside the present moment). With those two fundamentally different understandings of the world, every word of the Dhamma must inevitably be understood differently. Ken H =============================== Actually, the "project" seem to be moving along nicely now. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 14-nov-2011, om 12:29 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I used to stay with K.Sujin and her father in Bangkok. KS would > say she liked to have me stay because I discussed the Dhamma with > her father and we got on very well together - he was rather like > Han*, with a great sense of humour too. ------- N: I have such good memories of her father, and Lodewijk liked him very much. Went out together on many outings. Those were good times! As you say: 'I think that simply, the more confidence there is in the understanding of the presently appearing reality, the less it matters what anyone else thinks or says - just conditioned dhammas. We know the seeing is conditioned now, the hearing, the thinking and so on.' This is what really matters, not thinking: Mr. X (or Mrs.) said that, and Mr. A is offensive, and Mr. B has wrong view and wrong practice. All this does not help to understand the present moment. Life is too short let us not waste it away with such things as names dropping. I liked all your quotes and observations on Metta. In a Thai recording (heard this morning): about dosa and its abandoning. Kh S quoted from the Dispeller of Delusion, CH VII. 1252: The arising of ill-will comes about through unwise bringing to mind (ayoniso manaasikaara) in regard to the sign of resentment (pa.tighanimitta). Herein, resentment is the "sign of resentment" and also the object of resentment is the "sign of resentment". Kh Sujin explained that all objects through the six doors can be nimitta of dosa. Yoniso manasikaara (right attention) is stressed for the abandonment of dosa. The Dispeller of Delusion, CH VII, at end,1256: "Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: 1. the acquiring of the sign of amity. 2. devotion to the development of amity. 3. Reviewing ownership of kamma. 5. good friendship. 6. suitable talk." So touching to hear our late friend Khun Bong saying that since she heard dhamma, and learnt about kamma and its result it made so much difference to her. When experiencing an unpleasant object through the bodysense or through the other senses, she learnt that these are just results of kamma. ------- Nina. #120376 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:56 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "..." Me: "Abhidhamma clarifies that what you take to mean 'grief' from an ordinary non-Dhamma perspective is one of the flavours of dosa and is dosa arising in the absence of that which is missed or grieved. Abhidhamma clarifies that 'grief' is not some form of 'compassion' as you suggest, but seems more some sort of reaction to attachment, desire - lobha." Scott. #120377 From: "philip" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... philofillet Hi Sarah > S: I think it's very understandable and perhaps related to a lack of confidence or doubt about the Path? It could be, but not that I can see. I think it's a lobha/dosa chain reaction, attachment to the recorded talks, dosa that this list bears such little resemblance to them because of the attention always demanded by people with wrong view. Dosa that due to your great patience or some other reason you are too willing to encourage people with wrong view to use DSG as a soapbox for the sake of having some kind of nice happy group feeling. I know for a fact that there are people participating here who are actually completely scornful of A Sujin but who stay here because they are so fond of you and Nina and Jon as friends. Yuck. Dhamma friends are cittas with right understanding, not people behaving nicely to each other. People who think they understand better than Abhidhamma ans Buddhagosa should consider what is written on the group's home page and go elsewhere, as Tep did. I respect Tep for that. We'll see how I feel later, but for now I'd rather just study and listen to the talks. That's natural, no way that everyone could be as patient and generous as you and Nina and Jon! And there are time management issues that make one want to do without the distractions. I'll be back in a few weeks. Time to study. Of course if I do study I might become even less tolerant. Well, who knows? We'll see ... phil #120378 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:48 am Subject: Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Nina, all, Op 12-nov-2011, om 18:15 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: I still do not understand why different types (kamma and vipaka) > of citta are mentioned instead of saying the type of citta is > determined by cetasika (and rupa). ----- N: Because Kh S speaks about characteristics that can be experienced now. Not the book, but awareness now. Then it all becomes more meaningful, but gradually so. Certainly, cetasikas condition citta, but can we experience this now? Do we know all the different cetasikas by our own experience? D: I think there is consensus understanding on the importance of understanding vipaka or old kamma and new kamma . Although both are part of citta, new kamma is a choice conditioned by cetasika, in particular by sankhara khanda. There are kind of automatic habits , which we are usually not aware of (lack of sati ) . However the willed action here and now (new kamma.. vipaka in future ) is the deed under our ' management' . This 'management ' misses a personal core , instead constitutes itself as a stream of interrelated / conditioned mental / material phenomena/dhammas, but of cource not without (moral) responsibility on our part ( 'us ' refers to the individual, but in principal common D.O. process) The quailty of 'management' is determined by the level of sati and panna being in place.. I wonder how far you may agree with me ..... it isn't easy to find a common language , is it? with Metta Dieter . #120379 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:16 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Connie ,( Scott, all), you wrote: I am too lazy to go back thru the posts to answer them. Too many trees in the forest! D: true..I recognized that when I answered your previous mail. As we are talking are about complex isssues , the different aspects grow like branches from the stem by each topic touched. Quite useful to concentrate on main issues and let the minor reappear by chance C: I remember two in particular: 1. Your original list is fine... how they are grouped or the order might differ, but any complete list would still have the very same 52 factors/cetasikas. 2. While dosa is broadly defined in terms of hatred, there is also the idea that it is any "absence of delight of consciousness". (Book of Analysis, p471) D: There is indeed a broad defintion necessary when it comes to the threefold aspects of thirst, tanha, especially when out of context. Instead of absence of 'delight of consciousness' , I prefer ' urge of not wanting to have .., i.e. rejection ', in contrast to the urge of wanting .., provides a clearer picture (moha the 'I'of want/not want ) Dosa understood this way fits with grief .. I agree . (question however : is dosa used in this canonical context ? ) C: Ashin Thittila, who translated that book, is also quoted (elsewhere) as having said: < It should be realized and remembered that the indirect enemy of compassion is grief; grief and sorrow not being compassion in the real sense of the word since they are morally weak states, whereas true compassion is morally strong and gives strength. Self-pity, being sorry for oneself, will do harm because such thoughts are of a selfish nature, and will be followed by harmful states of mind.> D: the revealing background may appear when the real event 'loss of a beloved relative or friend ' is contemplated. I am not sure whether self-pity is always involved. C: So now I am up to today, where you again question "whether the introduction of morality into the Law of Dependent Origination may not lead to a distraction of the 8fold Noble Path (training). >> Could you say more about what you mean by this? I'm confused by it. I keep thinking it doesn't matter which part of the teaching we look at, it is all the same. D: I think when contemplating the Nagara Sutta, the relation between the Noble Path( Truths) and the Law of Dependant Origination becomes more obvious , something the Theras may have been very well aware of . (see extraxt below) Nyanatiloka writes: "Before entering into the discussion of the contents of the seven Abhidhamma books, I wish to point out that the study of the Abhidhamma requires a previous thorough acquaintance with the fundamental teachings and ethical aims of Buddhism; aand it is only to those who have fulfilled this preliminary condition that, by thus recapitulating their learning and by philosophically deepening their insight, the Abhidhamma may prove to be of real benefit. ( http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Guide-through-the-Abhidhamma-Pitaka.\ pdf )" The priority of Abhidhamma study , going even so far to dismiss "conventional " teaching as presented in the Sutta Pitaka , means the danger of losing the track. so far ...waiting for further discussion ... ;-) with Metta Dieter http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html "In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path. "Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings." for a detailed analysis of D.O. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html , which may be useful to compare with the citta,cetasika , rupa grouping #120380 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:28 am Subject: Energy Boosts Effort! bhikkhu5 Friends: Energy Boosts Advantageous Right Effort! By energy, one strives and struggles, thus is it enthusiastic effort. Any advantageous exertion of endeavour is a right effort. By Energy, one works in the right direction, thus is it right effort. Energy is Right, because it eliminates all the ugly and evil mentalities! Energy is Effort, because it brings progress of well-being and bliss! Thus is it Right Effort... It is a name for Energy... Viriya! Energetic Right Effort achieves these four functions: 1: Elimination of already arisen detrimental mental states! 2: Preventing the arising of detrimental states, that have not yet arisen! 3: Initiation of advantageous mental states, that have not yet arisen! 4: Maintenance & expansion of already arisen advantageous mental states! Thus is it fourfold. That is why it is called the 4 right efforts... <....> Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga by Ariya Buddhaghosa from 5th century AC. http://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/PathofPurification2011.pdf Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #120381 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... sarahprocter... Hi Phil, >________________________________ >From: philip >..... Dhamma friends are cittas with right understanding, not people behaving nicely to each other. ..... S: Yes, the right understanding now, being a good friend to others, no matter how they respond. A protection, as we read in the Sangiiti Sutta. "Be an understanding person" as KS always reminds us. >We'll see how I feel later, but for now I'd rather just study and listen to the talks. .... S: No problem.... please keep transcribing any parts you find helpful and adding your own comments. A great daana. Every evening when Jon gets back from work, we edit a little more, so hope to get more uploaded soon. ... >I'll be back in a few weeks. Time to study. Of course if I do study I might become even less tolerant. Well, who knows? We'll see ... ... S: !!! Conditions, conditions......The only study that counts in the end is the study of realities now and when there is truthful study, there is more tolerance, more understanding, not less. Always back to this moment.... nntr Metta Sarah ===== #120382 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "...Every evening when Jon gets back from work, we edit a little more, so hope to get more uploaded soon.?" Scott: Excellent! Do hurry, won't you? Ha ha. Scott. #120383 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:39 am Subject: Re: Metta: so anatta.... epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, Rob E, others > > Metta is interesting, it does arise. I really enjoyed (in a kusala way) seeing it arise when I was writing to Alex last week. In my life away from the internet tgere is a lot of it, I'm Mr. Friendly. However for some years, consistently, the greatest aversion tgat arises about people is, clearly and without doubt, always related to Dhamna. An indication of how intense the attachment is. Spme would say that is very "unbuddhist" as if the point of Dhamma were to be nice. But it is true that non-harmfulness is important and I heard A.Sujin praise the form of dana that is "don't cause the unpleasant moment" so as I was saying to Rob E I am from today putting the message board on the simplified format where the addresse's name doesn't appear. I will only read messages from people who don't (for reasons beyond contrul) induce harsh speech. That's best for now I think. If Rob E addresses a post to me I won't know from now on, so please understand when I fail to reply. As I've said, that's fine with me. If you see content that you want to reply to, reply; if not, ignore it. I will still comment however it occurs to me; perhaps others will pick up on what I say if you don't. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #120384 From: "philip" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... philofillet Hi all Let me rephrase the following: > I know for a fact that there are people participating here who are actually completely scornful of A Sujin but who stay here because they are so fond of you and Nina and Jon as friends. Yuck. Ph: Scornful is too strong, but I know based on discussion elsewhere that people think the understanding of Dhamma taught by A.Sujin is highly eccentric, weird etc, I can find past correspondence to that effect. So they think the understanding behind DSG is very faulty. But they say what wonderful people Nina, Sarah, etc are (which is true of course) so that is why they continue to discuss at DSG. That is not a very good reason to form Dhamma friendship as the following my-very-good line (copyright pending) says... > Dhamma friends are cittas with right understanding, not people behaving nicely to each other. Ph: I stand behind this 110%. I don't think this "let's have a friendly group, we disagree almost completely about Dhamma, but we are so nice with each other" is very sensible. Well, of course, for developing metta, patience etc, that is true. I guess I have spoken my piece. Now I see Dieter is posting that based on his reading of D.O in a sutta, Abhidhamma is wrong. Sigh...good luck with that "Cetasika" project, I hope Abhidhamma wins in the great battle to come with the Kalamites. No thank you very much! Oh I guess I *hadn't* spoken my piece, I had to get one more shot in. And of course I know that everyone here, everyone, each and everyone one of us, is a wonderful human being. Great. But real dhamma friends are the cittas rooted in right understanding. Thanks Sarah, over and out until the end of the winter vacation. Yes, Phil always says he's leaving, let's have a laugh about that in KK. Phil #120385 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "Scornful is too strong, but I know based on discussion elsewhere that people think the understanding of Dhamma taught by A.Sujin is highly eccentric, weird etc, I can find past correspondence to that effect....Dhamma friends are cittas with right understanding, not people behaving nicely to each other....Now I see Dieter is posting that based on his reading of D.O in a sutta, Abhidhamma is wrong. Sigh...good luck with that 'Cetasika' project.." Scott: I'm with you, Phil. I think the 'us and them' is just a fact. Not a disaster or a fiction or whatever. Just a fact. I don't think that it does, necessarily, to cover it over with false mettaa and diplomacy, nor does it do, necessarily, to get all fiesty over it. Although I do sometimes. Did you see where I managed even to have a thread with Nina shut-down? Did I ask the wrong question? I don't know. I figure I must have crossed some line but have no clue which for sure - I can imagine many things, of course. I've said before that I literally am poorly socialized but Dhamma isn't about 'socialization' is it? Ah well, rhetorical question. Have a good break. Scott. #120386 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:27 pm Subject: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Dear All, I have a dog. I also have a busy life. Most times, when the dog does her business, I pick it up in a used grocery store bag, like a good recycler. Sometimes, the exigencies of kids and breakfast and single-parent routine and whatnot make this suburban ritual impossible. This morning, after a busy weekend and an unending dog-bowel, the neighbour placed a piece of my dog's feces on my front steps. I had failed, for once, to pick it up. So sue me. I come home after a long day at work to find this passive-aggressive missive on my front porch steps. Dog s***. Needless to say, Dhamma aside, I thought ill of this narrow-minded, self-centred, not-minding-his-own-business, petty s.o.b. of a neighbour. It is snowing. Winter has arrived in Edmonton. Shoveling snow in suburbia involves having to minister to a very small section of sidewalk - nothing compared to shoveling snow when I was a kid. So I always shovel most of the neighbours walks on both sides. All winter. Not too hard, really. I did the same tonight, including the majority of the sidewalk pertaining to the dog-s***-delivering moron, his ridiculous complaint notwithstanding. What of it? Buddhist enough? Why or why not? Scott. #120387 From: KC Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism ashkenn2k Dear Scot It is just dosa, and the strength of latency and disposition Cheers Ken O Sent from my iPhone On 15 Nov, 2011, at 12:27 PM, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Dear All, > > I have a dog. I also have a busy life. > > Most times, when the dog does her business, I pick it up in a used grocery store bag, like a good recycler. Sometimes, the exigencies of kids and breakfast and single-parent routine and whatnot make this suburban ritual impossible. > > This morning, after a busy weekend and an unending dog-bowel, the neighbour placed a piece of my dog's feces on my front steps. I had failed, for once, to pick it up. So sue me. > > I come home after a long day at work to find this passive-aggressive missive on my front porch steps. Dog s***. Needless to say, Dhamma aside, I thought ill of this narrow-minded, self-centred, not-minding-his-own-business, petty s.o.b. of a neighbour. > > It is snowing. > > Winter has arrived in Edmonton. Shoveling snow in suburbia involves having to minister to a very small section of sidewalk - nothing compared to shoveling snow when I was a kid. So I always shovel most of the neighbours walks on both sides. All winter. Not too hard, really. I did the same tonight, including the majority of the sidewalk pertaining to the dog-s***-delivering moron, his ridiculous complaint notwithstanding. > > What of it? Buddhist enough? Why or why not? > > Scott. > > #120388 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken O., K: "It is just dosa, and the strength of latency and disposition" Scott: Yeah? How do you know? What are you basing this fantasy on? You have just read a description of events. On what do you base your conclusion? Scott. #120389 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:37 pm Subject: Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving szmicio Dear Nina, > N: I am glad about what you write. I just heard on a Thai recording > that there is no person, only paramattha dhammas. L: Can you quote from this Thai recordings, from time to time? Did you ever think to translate this into English? This is a great opportunity to hear such rare and profound Dhamma. I think I can start with Thai, if I have Thai recordings from Acharn. > So good to hear > this again and again. What 'someone' said or did has fallen away > already, no more. A person is just citta, cetasika and ruupa. Too > many quarrels in the world, but understanding this would help. > ------- L: That is truly right, one moment of citta now. I think we need to go back to this again and again. Best wishes Lukas #120390 From: Lukas Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:47 pm Subject: santhana pannatti and santati pannatti szmicio Dear friends, What is a difference between santhana and santati pannatti? I need some details. Best wishes Lukas #120391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... nilovg Dear Scott, Op 15-nov-2011, om 3:44 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Did you see where I managed even to have a thread with Nina shut- > down? Did I ask the wrong question? I don't know. I figure I must > have crossed some line but have no clue which for sure - I can > imagine many things, of course. I've said before that I literally > am poorly socialized but Dhamma isn't about 'socialization' is it? > Ah well, rhetorical question. Have a good break. ------ N: Ha, ha. Too long on a short text was too long for me. Also: you were 'names dropping' ;-)) Nina. #120392 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:24 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa sarahprocter... Hi Connie & Dieter, C;> 'Let me see if I can get this right this time: the truth of suffering includes most all conditioned things except craving, which stands alone as the truth of origin. The supramundane cittas that are the path proper are also not considered 'truth of suffering'. Out of all the (truth of) suffering, only the two dosa mula cittas we call painful mental and bodily feeling are dukkha dukkha. ..... S: Yes, better on each re-run. I understand all conditioned dhammas except for the supramundane dhammas (lokuttara cittas and nibbana) to be included in the 1st Truth. Lobha is impermanent and clung to as well. Dukkha dukkha refers, as you suggest to bodily and mental painful feeling. Domanassa (mental painful feeling) accompanies dosa mula citta, but dukkha (bodily painful feeling), which accompanies the kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), the citta which experiences tangible objects through the body sense, is not associated with dosa. From an earlier message I wrote: >Just to summarise the five kinds of feeling; a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha.< > D: Easiest seems to me to define Dukkha by the first Noble Truth , and Dukkhata by the 3 different kinds , i.e. of bodily and mental pain, of formation and of change . The latter provides the only explanation why sukkha , the counterpart , is mentioned being (finally) dukkha. .... S: Sukkha is dukkha because it is impermanent and not worth clinging to. It is the clinging to one's pleasant feeling that brings all that grief you've been discussing with Scott and others. .... > In respect to craving I assume it is best to keep in mind the Law of Dependent Origination , which shows/explains the 'orgination of the whole mass of suffering ', i.e. the first and second Noble Truth. .... S: Yes, the origin is the 2nd NT - craving now. With no craving to what is experienced through the senses and the pleasant feeling in regard to these, no worldly grief, no sorrow. Metta Sarah ====== #120393 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Scott, --- <. . .> > S: I did the same tonight, including the majority of the sidewalk pertaining to the dog-s***-delivering moron, his ridiculous complaint notwithstanding. > > What of it? Buddhist enough? Why or why not? --- KH: I think it was highly commendable and better than I could have done in the circumstances. And yes, very Buddhist in the conventional sense of the word. The ultimate sense of the word Buddhist is, of course, a different matter and not to be confused with the behaviour of living beings. It is just disinterested dhammas performing satipatthana functions in accordance with conditions. Ken H #120394 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 sarahprocter... Hi Chuck & Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >C: Again, please chant/meditate/pray for the monk you hate the most!!! > >P: Don't forget that hate is a momentary reality, I might "hate" one monk at one moment and have friendly feelings towards him at another. Wouldn't it be better to understand how feelings of hate and friendliness come and go on their own instead of locking on to "I hate this monk" ? I think understanding is better than trying to use chant/meditation/prayer as a kind of magic to fix things. The Buddha's teaching helps liberate us from being locked in prisons of "I hate" and "I love" and "I" this and "I" that! ... S: Very nicely said, also in the follow-up posts. Very helpful: "The Buddha's teaching helps liberate us from being locked in prisons of "I hate" and "I love" and "I" this and "I" that". More on this prison: Ven Samahita's post #71285: >>The illusion of an Ego is the Strongest Prison! The Blessed Buddha once said: 'I am' is an illusion. 'This I am' is an illusion. 'I shall be' is an illusion. 'I shall not become this or that' is an illusion. 'I shall be of form' is an illusion. 'I shall become formless' is an illusion. 'I shall become endowed with perception' is an illusion. 'I shall become without any perception' is an illusion. 'I shall become neither with nor without perception' is an illusion. Illusion is torture, illusion is a mind cancer, illusion is a thorn in the future. If, however, all illusion is overcome, one is called a stilled one, a sage. And the stilled one, the sage, is no more reborn, grows no more old, & does not cumulate future death.. Why not? That craving through which he could be reborn again does not exist anymore! If he is not reborn, how can he ever grow old? If he never grows old, how can he ever die? If he never dies again, how can he ever be in panic and urge? If neither in panic nor urge, how can he still experience any craving? Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikaya 140: Analysis of the Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html<< *** Vism: 'The matter of the body is like the prison because it is the site of the punishment. Perception is like the offence because owing to perception of beauty, etc., it is a cause of the punishment, which is feeling. The formations aggregate is like the punisher because it is a cause of feeling. Consciousness is like the offender because it is afflicted by feeling." *** "That which is made of iron, wood or hemp, is not a strong bond, say the wise; the longing for jewels, ornaments, children, and wives is a far greater attachment." Dhp. 345 "That bond is strong, say the wise. It hurls down, is supple, and is hard to loosen. This too the wise cut off, and leave the world, with no longing, renouncing sensual pleasures." Dhp. 346. "Story Some monks passing a prison house observed the criminals bound by chains. They inquired of the Buddha whether there were other bonds stronger than what they had seen. The Buddha replied that the bond of craving was a thousand times stronger. " (Narada's translation of the Dhammapada and summary of story). ***** Metta Sarah ===== #120395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta: conceit is in the way. nilovg Dear Phil, Scott (and Lukas), Op 15-nov-2011, om 1:29 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Sarah: Dhamma friends are cittas with right understanding, not > people behaving nicely to each other. > > Ph: I stand behind this 110%. ----- N: Good. It is good to consider metta more. This morning I heard a Thai recording on dosa and metta, so useful. Kh S quoted from the Mahaaniddesa (not in English), Saariputta sutta, about the rootcauses of dosa and of despising others: ignorance, wrong attention (ayoniso manaasikaara), asmi-maana, 'I am' conceit, ahirika, anottappa, uddhacca, restlessness. The same rootcauses for despising others. Asmi-maana is a good reminder. It does not arise together with dosa, but it can condition it. In Kh S's book on Metta, right in the beginning she explains that conceit is in the way. < Conceit is a defilement which is an impediment to mettå. When there is mettå we think of the wellbeing of someone else, whereas when there is conceit we find ourselves important. If we wish to eliminate conceit and to develop mettå we must know the characteristic of conceit.... When we learn about the characteristic of conceit we can see the difference between the moment of akusala citta and of mettå. Akusala citta does not have the characteristic of gentleness and tenderness, at such a moment there is no feeling of closeness and friendship for others. If we want to develop mettå there must be ``sati-sampajañña'', mindfulness and understanding, in order to know when there is kusala citta and when there is akusala citta. At the moment of conceit there cannot be mettå. > See, if one would think: 'they and me', there is comparing and thus already conceit. Or one thinks: I have right understanding, others have wrong view and wrong practice, there is likely to be conceit. We may be so absorbed in aversion that we forget the rootcauses. So long as one is not a sotaapanna there may be wrong view and even wrong practice. So, we all study and discuss Dhamma here and others' questions are helpful to consider more realities oneself. Consider realities, not people who do not exist in the ultimate sense. We are so used to thinking of others, but there are only paramattha dhammas, we are alone. We experience an unpleasant sound or see an unpleasant visible object and the experience of these are just caused by 'our own' kamma, and we should not be angry with someone else or have aversion about his words. ------- Nina. #120396 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:56 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >...I figured the mundane jhanas were part of the conventional spiritual path .... S: pausing there.... There are many "conventional spiritual paths". If we are referring to the Path as taught by the Buddha, the lokiya (mundane) path as opposed to the lokuttara (supramundane) path (at moments when lokuttara cittas arise only), then any conditioned dhamma can be the object (and in that way), "part of" the mundane path. For example, now, there can be moments of right understanding and associated factors arising, knowing and experiencing a reality. These would be moments of satipatthana. The object can be any dhamma experienced normally - seeing, visible object, unpleasant feeling, thinking, hardness, for example. In the case of those who had previously attained mundane jhanas, such as many of the Buddha's disciples, then jhana cittas or cetasikas would also be "experienced normally". In terms of the development of the path, in terms of right understanding, it is disinterested, detached from the object. Panna doesn't have a preference or cling to jhana citta as being preferable to visible object - all conditioned, impermanent, 'useless' dhammas, as Phil would say. ... > and that the supramundane would pertain to the enlightenment process, but I do get confused about how the pieces fit together. The mundane path in general vs. the supramundane can get kind of shaky for me. .... S: Without the development of the mundane (lokiya) path now, there can never be the arising of supramundane cittas. Satipatthana is the development of the mundane path. Forget about any special experiences or objects in this regard because any clinging to these hinders the development of panna. ... >I understand the supramundane a little more clearly, strangely enough, at least in general terms, because of the discussions here, but what is considered "mundane" is sometimes a little more confusing. .... S: Lokiya as opposed to lokuttara. Ordinary, worldly, of this world or plane of experience. ... > ...The way my brain works it's much easier to go down the line of current messages and click them off than to do a search. I enjoy it but find it more confusing, what with the amount of various open projects and to-do lists I have to handle in between. But no excuse, I'll get to it and report back! > > .... > > S: n h m b!! See if Phil works that one out.... > > I think you've got me too! I'm thinking "no hurry" as in "no rush," but not sure... ... S: :-)) n h m b = "not holding my breath" for you to report back from the research in U.P.!! A bit of a play on your anapanasati threads too.... Seriously, I understand completely. The list has been very busy and it's a full-time job just reading the posts without diversions. In the evenings after Jon returns from work, around 6.30 or so, I mentioned to the others that we do half an hour or so on the editing (after he's changed and showered). Then he has a simple snack while we watch the news on TV. After that we start reading posts out loud together until one or other of us starts falling asleep about an hour later....:)) That's our evening routine in our small falt in Hong Kong, even on our anniversary!! Anyway, like you, I find it more interesting to discuss texts together or check references rather than just go read Dhamma books. Metta Sarah ===== #120397 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > S: "...Every evening when Jon gets back from work, we edit a little more, so hope to get more uploaded soon.?" > > Scott: Excellent! Do hurry, won't you? Ha ha. ... S: Thx for the encouragement! Appreciate the imperative, (followed by a qu mark) ha ha! thx also for correcting my Khine/Kline typos....maybe confusing with an actor! Keep up the shovelling! Metta Sarah ===== #120398 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Did you see where I managed even to have a thread with Nina shut- > > down? Did I ask the wrong question? I don't know.<...> > ------ > N: Ha, ha. Too long on a short text was too long for me. Also: you > were 'names dropping' ;-)) .... S: (smiling too)..... :-)) In any case, Nina wrote before #120230: >Satipa.t.thaanabhaavana, satipa.t.thaana is to be developed, even for those who, as you rightly pointed out, had developed the indriyas so that these had become powers and sati could arise at any time, in any situation. The word katara, points to: which of the four applications. Anyway, each one includes any naama or ruupa that appears now. This reminds me, there can be bhavana now while reading the numerous posts and thinking of answers.< Sarah: "tva.m katara.m satipa.t.thaanabhaavana.m manasikarosii'ti" Isn't it like when we ask here, 'what is the reality now'? 'What is appearing now?" In other words, what is the object of (the development of) satipatthana attended to/understood now? Isn't it a reminder then and now that when panna arises, when there is sati-sampajanna, it knows exactly what appears now, whether that be a bodily rupa, a vedana, a citta or other dhamma? Metta Sarah ===== #120399 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:27 pm Subject: Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings sarahprocter... Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: I heard an interesting thing today, someone had been moved to tears at one of the holy places, and asked A.Sujin about it, we know that crying and laughing must be akusala, but considering it was at a holy place, perhaps piti, or some kusala factory, or... > > And A.S explained something that I am hearing a lot and understanding a bit better these days, that as long as there is not understanding of the realities involved, all the speculation about situations can't be answered, so is pretty much useless to ponder on. To the realities! .... S: Very good. We can never work out 'the situation' - just a long story about 'me crying and laughing' in the 'kusala factory':-)) And this is the point about Scott's shovelling story too ---- lots and lots of different dhammas. I'm so tempted to give some advice, like 'go talk to your neighbours and make-up', but in the end, it's just all about the understanding now - not about any situations or rules. ... >She didn't mention clinging to oneself at this point, rather emphasized the lack of understanding of realities. (Of course there would be clinging to self.) .... S: Lack of understanding, being lost in the 'situations' because of clinging to self and ideas about situations - trying to work out *my* cittas and so on. ... > Ph: "We don't really understand concepts until we understand realities" or something like that, I heard. .... S: This is why it's the realities we need to discuss and understand, not the concepts. When we know what the realities are, it's obvious that anything else is a concept. ... > Ph: Now what kind of a dum-dum would ask "why did I put the microphone down!?! sheeesh. (haha, it was me.) Fair question though, interesting to think about what motivate actions, but no way to be answered. ... S: :-)) "me" again... ... >Still, thinking about what dhammas are at work is at least turning the mind in the general direction of anattaness, an appreciation that there is nothing but dhammas performing functions, due to conditions, beyond control. Here we say "just a lot of thinking", but still, something to be grateful for. ... S: Most helpful to understand the thinking as thinking now, rather than think more about it! Metta Sarah ====