#122800 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:16 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Rob E), You've been having some good discussions together. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >RE:This particular point surprised me and does seem confusing. I am >waiting to hear about how right concentration is to be developed but >is already present in each citta. > >==================== > > I wonder about that as well. Apparently with every wholesome state > there is already "right concentration". It is said in Dhs (PTS 9). > > Reading the Suttas, it is obvious that the Buddha did encourage long and hard development of the path that can last more than split second. So for some people "split second kusala" is too short and too weak to pin all one's hopes on. .... S: Let's be clear that any development of the path consists of "split second" arisings and fallings away of cittas and associated path factors. Even at moments of enlightenment, when the right concentration is equivalent to jhana concentration in intensity, it is still "split second" arising and falling away of lokuttara cittas. The Magga (path) citta which experiences nibbana is just one "split second" citta, followed by "split second" phala (result) cittas. Any suggestion that any citta is anything longer than momentary is not correct. Metta Sarah ===== #122801 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:39 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > The first javana cittas after the first rebirth citta are rooted in lobha, A.S repeated that at KK. I'm not sure that there is textual support for that, but it feels very true to me (and lobha.) ... S: I gave the quote from the commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha before. Here's a summary as given in the Guide to CMA, Ch V, #Guide to 41: " 'Immediately following....the rebirth-linking': The rebirth-linking consciousness is followed by sixteen moments of the bhavanga citta. Thereafter a mind-door adverting consciousness arises, followed by a porcess of seven javanas in which an attachment develops to the new existence (bhavanikanti-javana). This cognitive process, the first in the new life, takes as object the rebirth-linking consciousness; the javanas consist in sense-sphere cittas rooted in greed, dissociated from wrong views, unprompted. When this process ends, the bhavanga again arises and perishes, and continues thus whenever there is no intervention of a cognitive process. In this way the stream of consciousness flows on from conception until death, and from death to new birth 'revolving like the wheel of a cart.' " Metta Sarah ===== #122802 From: Lukas Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: kamma and vipaka, hear more szmicio Dear friends, I would like to hear more on kamma and vipaka. Best wishes Lukas #122803 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: KK discussions - was: Unsubscribing sarahprocter... Hi Rob K (& Pt), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > wow nice video. I clicked on the one you gave sarha and then found one with nina and khun sujin, and peter swan (died three years ago) , sukin is there too. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkvgmKYO30k ... S: Great! Thx for sharing these too. I noticed that in the last one below, the camera shows Phil and Jessica too which is nice. (Maybe others, I didn't watch it all). Perhaps Pt might add a link in 'links' for these as well. Metta Sarah > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > A friend, Tom, who was at KK sent me this link to some video he made of part of a discussion: > > http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBE3E35A4C9D5237 #122804 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E (122762) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > RE: That fits within the point I am trying to make. "Arahants having eradicated all akusala tendencies and no longer leading the household life" means that the purification of the cittas has resulted in altered conventional behavior. "No longer leading the household life" is a change in conventional behavior, which apparently is a sign of the path having developed to its completion. > =============== J: There is no correlation between the gaining of enlightenment and the giving up of the household life. The household life can be given up at any time before enlightenment or even before the development of the path begins. So in many cases there will be no perceptible change in conventional behaviour . > =============== > > J: The development of the path is characterised by the gaining of a clearer understanding of dhammas as they truly are, specifically their characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > RE: That's fine, but in fact one cannot understand dhammas as they are without the development of such kusala qualities as sampajana, satipatthana, panna/vipassana, etc. - so inherent in the idea that what is important is to "understand dhammas as they truly are" is in fact the development of kusala. One can't happen without the other. > > The idea that is often cited that one can see equally well into the reality of an akusala dhamma as into a kusala one is certainly true, but in order to do so in either case the reflective cittas that follow and arise with the panna that understands would have to be kusala ones. > > Prior to the development of a certain degree of kusala, that understanding will not take place. So development of kusala is crucial, not just understanding, as if it existed separate from kusala. > =============== J: There is no specific 'certain degree of kusala' that is necessary before the development of kusala of the level of understanding begins. Such a notion was never mentioned in the suttas. > =============== > > J: There is also a consequential lessening/weakening of the defilements, but this does not take any particular form or follow any particular pattern, as far as I know. > > RE: Are you saying that refraining from killing insects has no definite relation to the path? That would be hard to understand, since it takes an advanced understanding to refrain from such killing. > > Also, isn't it true that refraining from killing and other akusala activities or kamma pathas become permanent at certain stages, and doesn't that represent a certain level of progress from which there is no falling back? When Sarah says she would never kill an insect because of the kamma that reflects her firm understanding of what that represents, and that only happens at a certain level of understanding. Is that not so? > =============== J: When I said "there is a consequential lessening/weakening of the defilements, but this does not take any particular form or follow any particular pattern", I was referring to the development of awareness/insight prior to the attainment of the first level of enlightenment, as I took it that you were also referring to that (mundane) stage. (If Sarah made the remark you attribute to her, I doubt she meant it in the sense you have taken her to :-)) > =============== > RE: I'm sure there's no general way or order in which things occur for everyone. Yet I find it hard to think that at certain points akusala arisings and experiences as well as actions will gradually get outmoded. I know that once a stream-enterer reaches that stage and those beyond it, certain behaviors and experiences are said to be impossible after that point. Is that not so? And if so, what do you think such conventional changes represents, if not the level of understanding and insight of the cittas that are arising as "powers," or whatever the appropriate word is, for that which does not fall back at that point. > =============== J: In an earlier message you said this: > > > RE: Well, I'm very interested in the general development of kusala as well. On the dhamma level in which this really takes place, I guess we would start to experience longer periods of kusala cittas arising and start to lose some of the extended periods of suffering that attend so much attachment and aversion as well as the poisons and cittas arising from the akusala roots. Would you mind clarifying whether you were referring to the pre-enlightenment stage or the post-enlightenment stage (as I took you to mean the former). Thanks. > =============== > RE: Understanding the the three marks or characteristics and consequent detachment is the ultimate I am sure. However, it is also true that along the way some of the kusala attributes become "powers" that are always accessible and do not fall back at that point, and there are other changes that do not fall back and mark the level of insight that the person is at. Though I don't have quotes, I know that this has been discussed here a number of times in different threads. So there are stages of progress as well as the development of understanding, and also, as I ruminated before, one cannot have greater understanding of anatta etc. until the kusala qualities of insight, etc., have reached a certain point, so accumulation of kusala is always the prerequisite for such understanding to take place. Do you disagree with that? > =============== J: Regarding: "along the way some of the kusala attributes become "powers" that are always accessible and do not fall back at that point, and there are other changes that do not fall back and mark the level of insight that the person is at", my understanding is that the only person who is incapable of falling back is the sotapanna (or, more strictly speaking, the cula sotapanna); the development of a kusala quality to the level of a power ('bala') does not ensure that that degree of kusala cannot be lost. Regarding: "one cannot have greater understanding of anatta etc. until the kusala qualities of insight, etc., have reached a certain point, so accumulation of kusala is always the prerequisite for such understanding to take place", the 'understanding of anatta, etc.' and the 'kusala qualities of insight, etc.' are one and the same thing, so one cannot speak of one as being the prerequisite for the other. > =============== > > J: What would be the usefulness/significance of a *possible* correspondence (between the development of kusala and an increase in the number of conventional kusala acts)? > > RE: Well for one thing, if the conventional kusala acts are in fact the reflection or embodiment of the arising of kusala dhammas, then it makes those actions more meaningful, rather than beside the point. > > And the other important implication would be that those conventional representatives of kusala dhammas would also represent the path and what is taking place in the world of dhammas. That would give us conventional folks a little more access to what is happening prior to strong insight and understanding of dhammas themselves. > =============== J: Regarding: "if the conventional kusala acts are in fact the reflection or embodiment of the arising of kusala dhammas, then those [conventional acts] would also represent the path and what is taking place in the world of dhammas", there could be no development of the path in the first place without coming to an appreciation of the significance of dhammas, as opposed to conventional ideas and constructs, to that development; and sine any development that occurred would be a development in the understanding of dhammas there would at the same time be an appreciation of the lack of correlation between conventional ideas and constructs to that development. To put that another way, why would a person who had developed, by direct experience, a clearer understanding of dhammas as they truly are seek to confirm that development by reference to conventional acts? > =============== > > J: Conditionality is the broader term, encompassing influence of any shade. Causation I think of as being at one end of the spectrum of conditionality. > > RE: That's a really clear distinction which is quite helpful. Does causation proper exist in some cases, or is it always a matter of co-arising conditionality? > =============== J: As I understand it, there are always a number of conditioning factors in operation, never just a single 'causative' condition. Jon #122805 From: Lukas Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Bad mood, feeling low szmicio Dear friends, How to manage a bad mood. I feel them very often during a day, even listening to Dhamma. It doesnt want to stop. In that moment there is so unpleasant mental feeling. It last so long. It seems there cannot be any understanding in such a moments. Best wishes Lukas #122806 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your reply. A small comment: > > pt: In other words - intellectual understanding of a certain Dhamma issue does not necessarily imply there's pariyatti happening at the time, right? > ... > S: Right. Again, it comes down to the (kusala) understanding at that, this or any other time, no matter the topic or occasion. There may be a lot of attachment instead to 'working it out', just like a scientist has to working out the theory or any scholar might have for following an analysis. Again, it's only panna now that can know the citta, the reality, the object of understanding. Yes, a lot of the time, for me at least, especially when considering finer points of abhidhamma, it essentially goes down to considering abhidhamma like one would a science/philosophy and working out the logic of it, and then working out the supposed mental states - this is probably all akusala. And I think the perception which develops at such moments of thinking about Dhamma and delving into the meaning of the texts/discussion/terms, is in fact wrong (corrupted I think was the term?) perception. And this in fact does not lead to development of understanding in any way, but towards more misunderstanding of it - so non-occurrence of panna and pariyatti, even though the words might be "right" and exactly as in the texts. Though, I don't know if there is wrong view at the time as well. Best wishes pt #122807 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:40 am Subject: Re: Pt's visit by car - this moment does not mean crashing into trees! ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Thanks for coming back to this thread. > S: Just to say that whilst in Bangkok, I checked this detail with K.Sujin on "strong sanna" (thirasa~n~naa) as condition for sati. Yes, as discussed, it is the sanna arising with sati and panna in the development of insight, conditioned by understanding. There can also be thirasa~n~naa which is akusala, such as when there is wrong concentration. pt: Thanks for checking. > > pt: One thing that I'm not fully clear on yet - say I'm talking and thinking about dhamma, but this is with akusala cittas. Then, sanna that arises with these cittas still wouldn't count as development of strong sanna, panna, etc, even though I'm thinking "about dhamma", right? In other words, it's not about the content of the thoughts so to speak, but about cittas, i.e. the way in which the topic is contemplated, right? > .... > S: Exactly right and just the point I'm discussing with others too. pt: Thanks. Since this issue is still current on the list, a couple more things I'd like to double check: 1. we said that even though one may say/think the "right" words, that does not guarantee the presence of panna, nor kusala for that matter. 2. i think it was also said before that different words can be used to describe the same reality (e.g. different words for sati). 3. is it not also possible that different explanations can be used - e.g. "conditionality" vs. "flux/process". What I mean is, even though two discussants may use different terminology, that still doesn't exclude the possibility of it being pariyatti for each one of them? I.e. panna of pariyatti kind arising, even though different concepts are used to describe Dhamma? Hm, probably hard to tell actually, but what I'm getting at is that the priority is the arising of panna, which makes an explanation "right", so not the actual words which are used. > S: Exactly so. Accumulating strong akusala sanna is dangerous, especially if there is the view that it's kusala and part of the path. It can lead to all kinds of mental and physical disturbances. pt: This was a conclusion in respect to my comment on meditation techniques. And now it seems equally applicable to studying the texts without it being pariyatti - without it being a reminder about the present moment. > > pt: Anyway, that's how I understood S&J on this topic. Next topic - kasinas, jhana and concentration. > ... > S: Thx again for the comments and good summary. Also, great to have you back. Any dhamma discussion in Serbia? pt: No dhamma discussions, pretty much whatever continent/country I ended up in I was asking around and trying to work out the code for UP in my spare time - I had the most luck in Rome because the chairs in the airport were so hard that the only way the pain seemed to go away was when doing some very involving coding:) Anyway, now that that's not going anywhere, I'll have a bit more time to post, and thanks for reminding me about this thread, I still need to finish the report. Best wishes, pt #122808 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:56 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low ptaus1 Hi Lukas, > How to manage a bad mood. I feel them very often during a day, even listening to Dhamma. It doesnt want to stop. In that moment there is so unpleasant mental feeling. It last so long. It seems there cannot be any understanding in such a moments. Whenever I end up thinking like that, for some reason I remember KenH saying "So what?" It's an unpleasant feeling, but, so what? It's still anatta. So not a bigger deal than a pleasant feeling. But, we're not all KenH. So sometimes I also remember how when you help other people, you forget about your problems and your unpleasant feeling. And then it seems things are are done easily when it's for other people. And then sometimes there might also be remembering that the feeling (pleasant or unpleasant) is not yours. Anatta Best wishes pt #122809 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] about Ven. Nyanaponika's Abh Studies moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: N: Thanks for the text, this is a good reminder not to be negligent as to the development of understanding now. It moves me in particular as I am very impressed by the trials of our royal family and the condition of Prince Friso. It is similar to what Sarah went through when her friend had an accident. D: I read about that .. a tragedy for the Dutch royal family , one really feels sorry and only hope for a chance that the patient(s) may soon 'awake ' from the state of coma . N:This is what I meant in former posts, such reminders are good and helpful. Better than long debates. D:I am much in favor of that but unfortunately the interpretation is more often than not different .. Fitting to our discussion (streaming and D.O) is following excerpt (which you may know however always useful as a reminder): (S.N.XII 23) "Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean - in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." with Metta Dieter #122810 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:16 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. rjkjp1 Dear sarah If i can butt in: I thinkmwhat Scott is trying to get agreement on is 1. There are right views and wrong views. 2. Each type of view is often expressed on dsg. 3. Saying a wrong view is wrong is not an inherently bad thing to do. 4 of course he knows that while correcting a wrong view there might be akusala cittas arising, such as dosa. 5 however someone could write a very polite, loving sounding post, also correcting a wrong view, but stil have akusala. 6 the point, as he sees it, of writing on dsg is not for the writer to try to have kusala cittas. It is to discuss Dhamma, and it is incidental wheter kusala or awareness of the present moment arises. This is because, in his estimation, the arising of any type of citta depends on complex conditions, not under ones control. 7 hence while it is may be ideal if at all times kusala could arise this is unlikely, at least in his case to occur. But he still wants to write. 8 it is however agreed that when running a forum it is nice if everyone is polite and respectful and helpful and so on. As long One doesnt think excellent manners are a sure sign of kusala. If i got it all wrong perhpas you and Scott can correct me. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Scott, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > >Discussion, that is that which is not simply repeating a certain message, involves right and wrong ideas about Dhamma. Can you comment on this point? Remember, I get it about 'the moment.' > .... > S: Yes, "right and wrong ideas about the Dhamma", but I think the Dhamma is a lot more subtle than suggesting that "right ideas" mean right understanding, even pariyatti. I really have no more to add to what I've written already. > .... > > > What are your opinions about the inevitability that discussions will always be about 'right' and 'wrong,' cannot include the ineffable moment because it simply doesn't translate onto the screen, and can't even occur if they are only to be filled with repeated statements about the moment. > ... > S: I tend to disagree with the suggestion that in a discussion "it will always 'seem' that pariyatti and patipatti are 'divorced'.....". Whilst we all express what we consider to be 'right' at any time, the only real test is in the direct understanding at such a time, just like at any other time - at the present moment. If we express what is 'right', what seems to be in accordance with the texts, but with akusala cittas, we fail the test and while it appears 'right', in reality, there's no 'right'. > > The test always comes back to the citta now, the understanding now - not the 'other person' at all, no matter what we say or write. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #122811 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the real trouble makers. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 25-feb-2012, om 2:08 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > However, when there are discussants who don't see it as do we, and > there are still, these discussants prefer to state and re-state > their opposition to what we see as the right way of viewing the > Dhamma. As has been noted many times, they are very welcome indeed > to do so. This being the case, I fail to see how any 'discussion' > can take place when countering these incessant opposite opinions is > not desirable. These opinions that are contrary to the stated > opinions of the list are seen as necessary to the continued > expression of what you, or I, or Sarah, might see as correct. It > is, as you say in apparent frustration, 'black and white.' > ------- N: Black and white, I meant something different from what you concluded and I have no frustration about it. Just indicating that it all is not so simple to say: this is right, this is wrong, it must be this way otherwise it is wrong. -------- > > S: In truth life might be, as you suggest, too short, but this is a > 'discussion' list. Is discussion now to be replaced by the > repetitive expression of how more understanding of the moment is > what is required? I agree. What of Dieter, Alex, Rob E.? They don't > agree with this, and keep saying so. Are they to be left alone? > Told the same thing over and over again? Challenged? Discussed with > somehow? What is to be done? > ------- > N: The real troublemakers are the cittas with aversion, "our own", > not the other persons. That is why I wrote before about names > dropping, naming Mr. X and others. Again indeed, it comes down to > citta now. We should appreciate Sarah's reminders. > You have also read the simple advice about overcoming aversion in the Tipi.taka and in the Visuddhimagga. It may sound too simple, but it is about citta now. I myself find it helpful to consider this again and again: quote from my Cetasikas, Ch 29: Also in the Suttas it is said that we can remember someone's good points. A friend on the list before (now he is not here any more unfortunately) was always the first to apologize when he felt that he had gone too far in harsh speech. Really exemplary. If we find no good points we can consider persons as elements, just conditioned elements. Quote: We do not have to think of a material gift, as I wrote before there is also anumodana daana, appreciation of someone's kusala. It is mudita. We may be inclined to forget this. It is not so difficult, but we are forgetful. Long ago I was scolded by someone on the list and I complained to Sarah. She said: say something nice to him. I did and it was helpful to lessen aversion. You wrote: No rule, no recipe, it depends on the moment. What will citta do, we do not know ahead of time. There is no need to think: why are certain people protected here. It is not a question of protection. Why not treat everybody here as a dear friend? Not too difficult and then problems are solved. I think of the friend who apologized when speech was too harsh. It cleared up the atmosphere. If there are any more points that you find bothersome, do utter them. It is all about citta now, and thus worth discussing. ------ Nina. > > > > #122812 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:35 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. ptaus1 Hi RobK, Scott, Sarah, > RobK: If i can butt in: > I thinkmwhat Scott is trying to get agreement on is > 1. There are right views and wrong views. > 2. Each type of view is often expressed on dsg. If I can also butt in - the way I'm reading Scott if I'm not mistaken is that he's saying something a bit different - that there are right and wrong way of expressing things (including things about right/wrong view). Basically - let's dispense with the truisms about the present moment and focus on what is the precise description of a Dhamma issue in terms of ideas/concepts. That sort of discussion approach and ensuing verification of what is right/wrong imo essentially starts to equal to science or boolean algebra even, which seems divorced from how right/wrong view actually happens - in terms of pariyatti - different words can be used to describe the same reality, or the same words can be used, but there might not be pariyatti. So, in reality it seems it's not about ideas and concepts used, but about actual arising of panna. Hence, imo, a discussion is at its best when it's essentially an excuse for reminders about the present moment. Divorcing the discussion from that only seems to escalate the argumentative aspect of the discussion, which doesn't seem helpful to me. Best wishes pt #122813 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: : Yes, this is a common viewpoint. However, there can be no purity of sila or samadhi without the development of right understanding of dhammas from the outset. This is why they can never be purified without the development of satipatthana and the attainment of the vipassana nanas and enlightenment.. > (D: > Perhaps we can agree on (quoting from another list a comment refering to the sequence , ' Peter ':) "I understand them to arise like a spiral. Some panna is the basis for some sila. Some sila is the basis for some samadhi. Some samadhi is the basis for more panna. More panna is the basis for more sila. More sila is the basis for more samadhi. More samadhi is the basis for even more panna, etc. " , can't we ? .... S: I'd like to discuss this further if and when 'Peter' joins/rejoins us! D: you mean you have had contact with him before ? (My choice was by chance, stumbled upon..) I like the simile of a spiral .. but we may also talk about Ven. Nyanatiloka's intro of magga: ".. many of those who have written about the Eightfold Path have misunderstood its true nature, it is therefore appropriate to add here a few elucidating remarks about it, as this path is fundamental for the understanding and practice of the Buddha's .teaching. First of all, the figurative expression 'path' should not be interpreted to mean that one has to advance step by step in the sequence of the enumeration until, after successively passing through all the eight stages, one finally may reach one's destination, Nibbana. If this really were the case, one should have realized, first of all, right view and penetration of the truth, even before one could hope to proceed to the next steps, right thought and right speech; and each preceding stage would be the indispensable foundation and condition for each succeeding stage. In reality, however, the links 3-5 constituting moral training (sila), are the first 3 links to be cultivated, then the links 6-8 constituting mental training (samadhi), and at last right view, etc. constituting wisdom (pañña). It is, however, true that a really unshakable and safe foundation to the path is provided only by right view which, starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassana) and thus forms the immediate condition for the entrance into the 4 supermundane paths and fruits of holiness, and for the realization of Nibbana. Only with regard to this highest form of supermundane insight, may we indeed say that all the remaining links of the path are nothing but the outcome and the accompaniments of right view. Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right view." with Metta Dieter #122814 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Sarah , you wrote: 'S: I'm wondering if there's some misunderstanding between mundane/supramundane right view on the one hand and absolute truths/conventional truths on the other? It seems that you may be conflating mundane view and conventional truths? > D: is there any ? It is understanding which determines our view of the world and so is the language . > Conventíonal is the personal encounter , our lifestory , mother , father , consequences of action, etc. which the Buddha called mundane right understanding /view. .... S: When the Buddha referred to mundane right understanding, he was referring to the development of the path, to the development of satipatthana. No matter what words might be used, it is the undersanding of realities, the understanding of the khandhas that is being referred to. In order to communicate, conventional terms must be used, but it is not the conventional view of the world that is being referred to. We don't need to hear a Buddha to understand about the use of conventional terms or what is often referred to as 'worldly wisdom'. D: Sarah, that is your interpretation , but the sutta doesn't say so ... . (Just to briefly summarise the terms as used by some of us and in the texts as I understand them: > >S: 1. Mundane right view (lokiya sammaa di.t.thi) refers to the sammaa di.t.thi of the path which is not supramundane (lokuttara samma di.t.thi). Usually, such as in MN 117, it is satipa.t.thaana/vipassanaa that is being referred to. It is not "conventional understanding" or the "conventional world" that is being referred to. The objects of (lokiya) samma di.t.thi (mundane right view) in these contexts are always paramattha dhammas, i.e naamas and ruupas, one at a time. D: MN 117 refers first of all to samma samadhi , only later to samma sati > D: the view of the householder , of the laity is refered to , their conventional understanding. .... S: No, it is the right understanding of the path, the development of satipatthana, regardless of whether it is a bhikkhu or householder involved. It's not the conventional understanding at all, but the understanding of paramattha dhammas, but not the supramundane understanding at moments of enlightenment. Even after enlightenment, the sotapanna still develops mundane right view, satipatthana. Mundane here just means of this realm, not 'supra' or outside this realm, as in the case of the lokuttara cittas. It does not mean 'ordinary'... > D: > Please compare: > " And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. " So how can you say no in evidence of above? > > "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path." ... S: There are lots of detailed commentary passages and helpful comments on this sutta in U.P. under "Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117)". The passages are referring to satipatthana/vipassana with anusayas not yet eradicated and moments of enlightenment when the anusayas are eradicated at various stages, as Nina and I have mentioned. D: I am not sure about the Pali orginal here for 'effluents' anusaya: the 7 'proclivities', inclinations, or tendencies are: sensuous greed (kÄma-rÄga, s. saṃyojana), grudge (paá¹­igha), speculative opinion (diá¹­á¹­hi, q.v.), skeptical doubt (vicikicchÄ , q.v.), conceit (mÄna, q.v.), craving for continued existence (bhavarÄga), ignorance (avijjÄ, q.v.) (D. 33; A. VII, 11, 12). or Äsava: (lit: influxes), 'cankers', taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases. There is a list of four (as in D. 16, Pts.M., Vibh.): the canker of sense-desire (kÄmÄsava), of (desiring eternal) existence (bhavÄsava), of (wrong) views (diá¹­á¹­hÄsava), and of ignorance (avijjÄsava). A list of three, omitting the canker of views, is possibly older and is more frequent in the Suttas , e.g. in M. 2, M. 9, D. 33; A. III, 59, 67; A. VI, 63. - In Vibh. (Khuddakavatthu Vibh.) both the 3-fold and 4-fold division are mentioned. The fourfold division also occurs under the name of 'floods' (ogha) and 'yokes' (source Buddh.Dict.) Nevertheless right view without effluents means here the base for developing the ( links of the supramundane) Noble Path ,i.e. for those not yet having achieved Arahatship . I think we agree here with Metta Dieter #122815 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:15 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: There is at least some aspect of the Dhamma taught by the Buddha that can be verified by direct experience right now. In my view it is better to begin to understand what can be directly understood and/or confirmed than to try and conceptualise the whole scheme of things (e.g., continuum vs. split, distorted conglomeration vs. complete alternative -- it may be that neither of the 2 options being considered is apt!). Appreciate all your notes, Jon. How would you define the range of things that can be verified by direct experience right now, as you say above? I would be very interested in how you would describe that, and I think it would be significant. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122816 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:01 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Sarah, S: "Yes, 'right and wrong ideas about the Dhamma', but I think the Dhamma is a lot more subtle than suggesting that 'right ideas' mean right understanding, even pariyatti. I really have no more to add to what I've written already." Scott: If you are reading me to suggest that *the Dhamma is only about right and wrong ideas* then you are misreading me. As I've noted, I'm referring to discussing the Dhamma on the list, and to what I consider to be the limits of such discussion. The main limits are that discussion can only be about ideas and take place between ideas that are either right or wrong in relation to the Dhamma (which, of course, is deep and subtle and not unfolding in mere words on a list). S: "I tend to disagree with the suggestion that in a discussion 'it will always 'seem' that pariyatti and patipatti are 'divorced'.....'. Whilst we all express what we consider to be 'right' at any time, the only real test is in the direct understanding at such a time, just like at any other time - at the present moment. If we express what is 'right', what seems to be in accordance with the texts, but with akusala cittas, we fail the test and while it appears 'right', in reality, there's no 'right'..." Scott: Sarah, I am referring to discussions on the list. I didn't think that ongoing actual satipa.t.thaana at the moment of writing a reply was a prerequisite for discussions here. In the above you could make a case for those who believe in 'kusala acts' and be suggesting that a comment on the list about right ideas concerning the Dhamma is only 'right' if it's expression in style looks kusala. I don't think you should mix ordinary desire for a certain comportment on the list with some suggestion that so-called 'proper' comportment on the list looks a certain way and is a function of 'direct understanding' because of that. I can see that you wish to hold your statements to a level concerned with style of writing, not ideas. I think the two are not necessarily the same. You could also be making a case for the notion that one should only write on the list when there is 'direct understanding at the same time.' Absurd, right? That would eliminate everyone - for sure those who have it wrong, no matter what the style of writing, because wrong ideas are coming from lack of 'direct understanding' aren't they. I get it though, no more discussion of this topic desired... Scott. #122817 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the real trouble makers. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "Black and white,... Just indicating that it all is not so simple to say: this is right, this is wrong, it must be this way otherwise it is wrong." Scott: It seems to me that one cannot step back from the fact the there are only two ways to understand the Dhamma: either one gets it right or one gets it wrong. Is there a third alternative? How do you see the whole thing about 'right' or 'wrong' in relation to the Dhamma (not in relation to list polemics or politics)? To me, when we see terms such as 'right view' and ' wrong view' in the texts, referring to certain realities, then this distinction is valid. To me this distinction casts shadows on what is asserted on a list such as this. N: "The real troublemakers are the cittas with aversion, 'our own', not the other persons. That is why I wrote before about names dropping, naming Mr. X and others. Again indeed, it comes down to citta now. We should appreciate Sarah's reminders." Scott: I am not referring to Sarah's reminders. I am no longer discussing style of posting. If we can get past this it would be good. The issue is being taken care of instrumentally. If you wish to call the view expressed by, *for example*, Scott, something other than 'Scott' then fine. I'm not referring to people. I'm referring to views as expressed on the list. Views which, divorced from names mind you, can be either right or wrong. Or some hybrid of these if you've got an example of such a stance. You seem to be disagreeing with what I am saying. I don't mind. I'm merely pointing out that no matter what - on a discussion list - there is either going to be agreement or disagreement - and only at the level of ideas. Some are suggesting that these are pre-pariyatti ideas. Some are suggesting that it has to be a post arising directly out of a moment of satipa.t.thaana and only kusala for real in order to be posted. Nina: "...You have also read the simple advice about overcoming aversion...No rule, no recipe, it depends on the moment..." Scott: I'll say again that I am no longer speaking at all about style of posts, although this seems to keep cropping up as if that is the concern. Here, above, are two different things being said. On the one hand a trick or formula or way to 'overcome aversion' is being touted, while on the other hand the mantra of 'no rule' is being expressed. These are mutually contradictory statements. I don't read the texts to be giving advice on how to overcome aversion, therefore if I had to pick which one of your statements I agree with, it would be the latter. Many, many posts have been written disagreeing with views that suggest that the texts represent 'how to' manuals. I'm not sure why you would say now that they do. To say that there is advice to be followed in the texts is to fly in the face of some of the basic aspects of Dhamma I had been understanding you to have been stating over the years. What about anatta? What about 'no practice?' Do these go out the window with a fixation on style? I am not even discussing aversion, anyway. I am pointing out that no matter how many gyrations one goes through to side-step it, there is no getting around the fact that discussion involve only the intellectual expressions of concepts about the Dhamma and can be either right or wrong. I think the fact that some are still concerned about style of posting makes it difficult to step back and comment on this bare fact. #122818 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:22 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob K., R: "...I thinkmwhat Scott is trying to get agreement on is 1. There are right views and wrong views..." Scott: Correct. R: "2. Each type of view is often expressed on dsg..." Scott: Correct. R: "3. Saying a wrong view is wrong is not an inherently bad thing to do..." Scott: Correct. R: "4 of course he knows that while correcting a wrong view there might be akusala cittas arising, such as dosa..." Scott: I do know this and am moving past this aspect of the discussion, suggesting it is a given I am no longer dwelling on. R: "5 however someone could write a very polite, loving sounding post, also correcting a wrong view, but stil have akusala..." Scott: Again true and I think that this has already been established. This discussion is stalling on this level because this message is what is wanted, not discussion per se. R: "6 the point, as he sees it, of writing on dsg is not for the writer to try to have kusala cittas. It is to discuss Dhamma, and it is incidental whether kusala or awareness of the present moment arises. This is because, in his estimation, the arising of any type of citta depends on complex conditions, not under ones control..." Scott: Correct. Other statements are still about comportment and I'm not discussing that level of things. I consider that having posts moderated is supposed to take care of that and am discussing aspects of the Dhamma in daily life as far as 'daily life' includes interacting on a list such as this. R: "7 hence while it is may be ideal if at all times kusala could arise this is unlikely, at least in his case to occur. But he still wants to write..." Scott: Correct. R: "8 it is however agreed that when running a forum it is nice if everyone is polite and respectful and helpful and so on. As long One doesnt think excellent manners are a sure sign of kusala..." Scott: Correct but not exactly the point I am getting stuck on. Scott. #122819 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:36 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...the way I'm reading Scott if I'm not mistaken is that he's saying something a bit different - that there are right and wrong way of expressing things (including things about right/wrong view). Basically - let's dispense with the truisms about the present moment and focus on what is the precise description of a Dhamma issue in terms of ideas/concepts." Scott: No. First of all, this discussion is fixated on 'right and wrong way of expressing things' and that is not my fixation. I am saying that there is 'right' and 'wrong' when it comes to the Dhamma. I am saying that if one wishes to state truisms this is fine but this is not 'discussion.' It is akin to 'preaching.' pt: "...Hence, imo, a discussion is at its best when it's essentially an excuse for reminders about the present moment. Divorcing the discussion from that only seems to escalate the argumentative aspect of the discussion, which doesn't seem helpful to me." Scott: We disagree. Reminders about the present moment are statements. They do not represent discussion. In fact, such statements, expressed in opposition to statements about 'practice' represent poles in a dialectic that can't be avoided. In the above you are disagreeing with the view that discussion is about right or wrong. You are offering an opposing view. And, need I remind you, you are suggesting it to someone for whom the importance of the moment is well-established. The words on this list are not and will never be 'the moment.' Scott. #122820 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:24 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...That sort of discussion approach and ensuing verification of what is right/wrong imo essentially starts to equal to science or boolean algebra even, which seems divorced from how right/wrong view actually happens - in terms of pariyatti - different words can be used to describe the same reality, or the same words can be used, but there might not be pariyatti. So, in reality it seems it's not about ideas and concepts used, but about actual arising of panna..." Scott: Is there 'right' and 'wrong' or not? Is this expressed on a list using 'ideas and concepts' or not? How do you propose to write a post on the list which is able to encapsulate with and within the words the actual arising of right view? This discussion has started to unearth what seem to be magical beliefs about words and phrases. Do you actually propose some impossible feat of somehow composing posts that are not posts but actual moments of consciousness? Pariyatti has been defined now as 'thinking with pa~n~naa.' How do you propose to moderate this if the 'actual arising of pa~n~naa' has now become the newest arbitrator of a proper post on the list? Scott. #122821 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:28 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: Just to clarify a point that's been repeated a couple of times - I think I just said that since I was young I've not been inclined to kill insects. I don't think I said it was "because of the kamma" - just not the inclination to harm them, knowing how they'd like to live just like us. > > We may be reasonably virtuous in certain respects now or in this life, but what about next life if the understanding hasn't been sufficiently developed? There shouldn't be complacency - who knows what tests are in store or what accumulations may arise later or in another life? I guess what I'm suggesting is that this "conventional" sense of not wanting to kill insects, which also includes a sense of "conventional" suffering on the part of those little beings, does represent in some way the development of understanding of the dhammas involved, even though it must occur to some extent as a concept when it comes up in everyday life. Whether it is metta or kamma that is the motivation, there's some connection between refraining from akusala actions and the akusala cetana, etc., that they would represent. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122822 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:49 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: That fits within the point I am trying to make. "Arahants having eradicated all akusala tendencies and no longer leading the household life" means that the purification of the cittas has resulted in altered conventional behavior. "No longer leading the household life" is a change in conventional behavior, which apparently is a sign of the path having developed to its completion. > > =============== > > J: There is no correlation between the gaining of enlightenment and the giving up of the household life. The household life can be given up at any time before enlightenment or even before the development of the path begins. So in many cases there will be no perceptible change in conventional behaviour . But in any case it *must* cease for the arahant if it has not been previously given up? Why is that, if it is merely a change in conventional lifestyle? Does it not reflect the culmination of certain accumulations and tendencies? > > =============== > > > J: The development of the path is characterised by the gaining of a clearer understanding of dhammas as they truly are, specifically their characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > > > RE: That's fine, but in fact one cannot understand dhammas as they are without the development of such kusala qualities as sampajana, satipatthana, panna/vipassana, etc. - so inherent in the idea that what is important is to "understand dhammas as they truly are" is in fact the development of kusala. One can't happen without the other. > > > > The idea that is often cited that one can see equally well into the reality of an akusala dhamma as into a kusala one is certainly true, but in order to do so in either case the reflective cittas that follow and arise with the panna that understands would have to be kusala ones. > > > > Prior to the development of a certain degree of kusala, that understanding will not take place. So development of kusala is crucial, not just understanding, as if it existed separate from kusala. > > =============== > > J: There is no specific 'certain degree of kusala' that is necessary before the development of kusala of the level of understanding begins. Such a notion was never mentioned in the suttas. I'm not saying there is this or that level, but the level you mention, "the development of kusala of the level of understanding" still must be present in order for understanding to take place. So then that is the level, whatever that is - it is still dependent on that degree of kusala. And understanding itself is kusala, even if the object of understanding is akusala. > > =============== > > > J: There is also a consequential lessening/weakening of the defilements, but this does not take any particular form or follow any particular pattern, as far as I know. > > > > RE: Are you saying that refraining from killing insects has no definite relation to the path? That would be hard to understand, since it takes an advanced understanding to refrain from such killing. > > > > Also, isn't it true that refraining from killing and other akusala activities or kamma pathas become permanent at certain stages, and doesn't that represent a certain level of progress from which there is no falling back? When Sarah says she would never kill an insect because of the kamma that reflects her firm understanding of what that represents, and that only happens at a certain level of understanding. Is that not so? > > =============== > > J: When I said "there is a consequential lessening/weakening of the defilements, but this does not take any particular form or follow any particular pattern", I was referring to the development of awareness/insight prior to the attainment of the first level of enlightenment, as I took it that you were also referring to that (mundane) stage. > > (If Sarah made the remark you attribute to her, I doubt she meant it in the sense you have taken her to :-)) That doesn't really resolve the issue of what a firm resolve not to kill insects represents in terms of development and understanding. Do you feel it has no relation to the path at all? > > =============== > > RE: I'm sure there's no general way or order in which things occur for everyone. Yet I find it hard to think that at certain points akusala arisings and experiences as well as actions will gradually get outmoded. I know that once a stream-enterer reaches that stage and those beyond it, certain behaviors and experiences are said to be impossible after that point. Is that not so? And if so, what do you think such conventional changes represents, if not the level of understanding and insight of the cittas that are arising as "powers," or whatever the appropriate word is, for that which does not fall back at that point. > > =============== > > J: In an earlier message you said this: > > > > RE: Well, I'm very interested in the general development of kusala as well. On the dhamma level in which this really takes place, I guess we would start to experience longer periods of kusala cittas arising and start to lose some of the extended periods of suffering that attend so much attachment and aversion as well as the poisons and cittas arising from the akusala roots. > > Would you mind clarifying whether you were referring to the pre-enlightenment stage or the post-enlightenment stage (as I took you to mean the former). Thanks. I don't know at what stage such things take place, but whether it is pre or post enlightenment my only point is that such things do take place at certain stages, and whatever they are, whether pre or post, they are "permanent" changes that represent accumulations on the path. > > =============== > > RE: Understanding the the three marks or characteristics and consequent detachment is the ultimate I am sure. However, it is also true that along the way some of the kusala attributes become "powers" that are always accessible and do not fall back at that point, and there are other changes that do not fall back and mark the level of insight that the person is at. Though I don't have quotes, I know that this has been discussed here a number of times in different threads. So there are stages of progress as well as the development of understanding, and also, as I ruminated before, one cannot have greater understanding of anatta etc. until the kusala qualities of insight, etc., have reached a certain point, so accumulation of kusala is always the prerequisite for such understanding to take place. Do you disagree with that? > > =============== > > J: Regarding: > "along the way some of the kusala attributes become "powers" that are always accessible and do not fall back at that point, and there are other changes that do not fall back and mark the level of insight that the person is at", > my understanding is that the only person who is incapable of falling back is the sotapanna (or, more strictly speaking, the cula sotapanna); the development of a kusala quality to the level of a power ('bala') does not ensure that that degree of kusala cannot be lost. What is it about the sotapanna that does make it impossible to fall back? > Regarding: > "one cannot have greater understanding of anatta etc. until the kusala qualities of insight, etc., have reached a certain point, so accumulation of kusala is always the prerequisite for such understanding to take place", > the 'understanding of anatta, etc.' and the 'kusala qualities of insight, etc.' are one and the same thing, so one cannot speak of one as being the prerequisite for the other. There is still a necessary degree of kusala before that degree of understanding can take place. Is that not so? > > =============== > > > J: What would be the usefulness/significance of a *possible* correspondence (between the development of kusala and an increase in the number of conventional kusala acts)? > > > > RE: Well for one thing, if the conventional kusala acts are in fact the reflection or embodiment of the arising of kusala dhammas, then it makes those actions more meaningful, rather than beside the point. > > > > And the other important implication would be that those conventional representatives of kusala dhammas would also represent the path and what is taking place in the world of dhammas. That would give us conventional folks a little more access to what is happening prior to strong insight and understanding of dhammas themselves. > > =============== > > J: Regarding: > "if the conventional kusala acts are in fact the reflection or embodiment of the arising of kusala dhammas, then those [conventional acts] would also represent the path and what is taking place in the world of dhammas", > there could be no development of the path in the first place without coming to an appreciation of the significance of dhammas, as opposed to conventional ideas and constructs, to that development; and since any development that occurred would be a development in the understanding of dhammas there would at the same time be an appreciation of the lack of correlation between conventional ideas and constructs to that development. > > To put that another way, why would a person who had developed, by direct experience, a clearer understanding of dhammas as they truly are seek to confirm that development by reference to conventional acts? I guess they wouldn't have to, but that wouldn't stop those dhammas from being expressed in conventional life as well, if that were the case. Refraining from killing, abandoning the household life at some point, if that takes place, etc., may reflect stages of development of understanding. It may be that there's no necessary relationship between understanding dhammas and conventional patterns of action. Still, it's hard to imagine someone with advanced understanding hanging around the bar getting drunk or kicking the dog for fun, or trying to trick people out of their money in a confidence racket. Do you disagree? If this sort of thing does not take place, there must be some sort of connection between understanding of dhammas and "improved" conventional behavior. I know you may not think that such a correlation is important, and maybe it's not, but I would be interested in your view of whether it does or does not in fact take place, since it seems obvious to me that it does. > > =============== > > > J: Conditionality is the broader term, encompassing influence of any shade. Causation I think of as being at one end of the spectrum of conditionality. > > > > RE: That's a really clear distinction which is quite helpful. Does causation proper exist in some cases, or is it always a matter of co-arising conditionality? > > =============== > > J: As I understand it, there are always a number of conditioning factors in operation, never just a single 'causative' condition. Great, thanks for that. That does make a lot of sense. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122823 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:37 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low szmicio Hi pt, Thanks for support, since i am not doing well the recent days and also no one replies my post in a few days. Now I feel especially not good. Next to depressive moods comes huge anger afterwards. I want to leave this all, and go get drunk or something more. Not sensitive to Dhamma also. > Whenever I end up thinking like that, for some reason I remember KenH saying "So what?" It's an unpleasant feeling, but, so what? It's still anatta. So not a bigger deal than a pleasant feeling. L: But it's so hopeless moment. So strucking. It's like no more energy to live. > But, we're not all KenH. So sometimes I also remember how when you help other people, you forget about your problems and your unpleasant feeling. L: Well, I dont remember many moments that I could help anyone. If yes, that's gone. I dont remember it, what's more important I dont feel like helping others. > And then it seems things are are done easily when it's for other >people. And then sometimes there might also be remembering that the feeling (pleasant or unpleasant) is not yours. Anatta L: But when I feel a depressive moment, like this today, I cant think of anattaness. The reason of this grieve are some situations how I am treated....It breaks my heart. Best wishes Lukas #122824 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Please don't mind when replies are slow - I have a bundle of posts put aside for replying to. I think we all get behind at times. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > How to manage a bad mood. I feel them very often during a day, even listening to Dhamma. It doesnt want to stop. In that moment there is so unpleasant mental feeling. It last so long. It seems there cannot be any understanding in such a moments. ... S: When there's a lot of dosa, there's often the illusion that the unpleasant mental feeling lasts a long time, but as we know, it's not like that at all. There are still moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and other sense door citts with no domanassa at all. At the moments of bhavanga cittas in between the processes, again no domanassa - they are kusala vipaka moments. Even in the mind door processes, when there is unwholesome thinking with dosa and domanassa, these cittas are so fleeting and momentary. There are even mind door processes with lobha in between when there's no dosa at all. Attachment to what has been experienced through the senses, attachment to thoughts about L or other dear friends, attachment to stories about more enjoyable occasions, situations, Dhamma study even. Why don't we ever complain about the attachment and all the pleasant feeling with it? Why don't we complain when we're with our loved ones and everything is going our way? It's just the aversion to the unpleasant feeling, the taking it all for "Me" and "My aversion". We're wallowing in the unhappiness without any concern or consideration for others. We forget all about equanimity, detachment and understanding at such times. There can be, there has to be understanding at these and any other moments. When there's understanding, there's no 'minding' about the unpleasant feeling, there is confidence in the Triple Gem as the sutta on Anathapindika I posted recently indicates. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/122686 In the end, as you know, Lukas, it's not a matter of "managing", but of acceptance and understanding. All the problems in life are caused by the attachment and ignorance that have been accumulated for so long. Also see the reminders on equanimity in this post I sent Rob E and others recently: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/122770 Sometimes when we find ourselves in a bad mood, we can just smile a little too - just conditioned dhammas beyond anyone's control. Wishing you a wise and "good cheer" Sunday. Metta Sarah ====== #122825 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:44 am Subject: Calmed... bhikkhu5 Friends: One becomes Calmed by Stilling all Agitation! The brahmin Mâgan diya asked the Buddha about how to become calmed: Not dwelling in the past, stilled in the present, one prefers no kind of future! Without irritation, without agitation, without regrets, without worry, neither boasting, nor proud, but humble and modest, one is indeed a restrained sage... Withdrawn, not opposed to anything, not wanting anything, all unconcerned, aloof, gentle, independent, for such one there exists neither craving or fear for any kind of existence, nor craving or fear for any form of non-existence... Such calmed one is indifferent to sense pleasures, detached, not clinging to any kind of property! For him there is nothing more to take up or lay down! For whatever others might accuse him, he remains tranquil and not agitated! Neither opposing anything, nor attracted to anything, with nothing of his own, not perturbed by what does not exist, such tranquil one is truly calmed! Sutta-Nipâta 849-861 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #122826 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:35 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Lukas, L: "Thanks for support, since i am not doing well the recent days and also no one replies my post in a few days..." Scott: I would not use this list as a substitute for proper treatment, if I were you. Scott. #122827 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:09 pm Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (Dieter & Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >A: In MN#2 the speculations about Self/No-Self are said to be inappropriate reflections and that one should contemplate 4NT instead. > > > > So this sidesteps various philosophical problems that may arise. > >R: Buddha did say quite explicitly that all dhammas are not-self, and that all of the khandas are not-self, going through each of them one by one. The reasoning that he gives for why the khandas are not a self or part of self is that one cannot control them or make them do what one wants. That is said clearly for all of the kandhas. So the question is: if none of the kandhas is oneself, which includes mind, feelings and other personality factors, then what is left to constitute a self? The only other candidate is nibbana, and so you are left in the position of either saying there is no self, or nibbana is a self. Since nibbana is also explicitly said to be not-self as well, what is left? ... S: This is well expressed. Pls also note: 1.With regard to Dieter's suggestion that "avijja-sankhara" is not "contained within the khandhas", both avijja (ignorance) and cetana (intention/kamma/sankhara) are included in sankhara khandha. 2. With regard to the comments about the All, as in the Sabba Sutta, pls note that nibbana is included in dhammayatana (mis-translated as "intellect & ideas" in the quote given (#122666). The inner and outer ayatanas are given. Dhammayatana includes subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana. (see more under "Sabba Sutta" in U.P. ) Metta Sarah ===== #122828 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:25 pm Subject: Re: sabbe dhamma sarahprocter... Dear Alex & Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Regarding "sabbe dhamma anatta/ all dhammas are not self" . > > Sabbe dhamma might NOT include absolutely everything imagined or unimagined. It doesn't have to include Nibbana. See AN10.58 > > "All phenomena are rooted in desire" > "All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.058.than.html .... S: Yes, it depends on the context. In this context, sabbe dhammaa refers to the 5 khandhas and how they are conditioned by previous craving (from past lives) which conditioned the continuation of samsara in this lifetime. ... > Since Nibbana is not rooted in desire, it is outside of sabbe dhamma. > Nibbana is the end of sabbe dhamma (all phenomena). ... S: Yes "outside of sabbe dhamma" in this context of the khandhas and D.O. ... > > > Also, the all (sabba) has been taught as: > > ============================================================= > "Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html > ================================================================ > > What lies outside of 12 ayatanas cannot be explained as it is beyond range. I don't believe that one should sneak atta. No way. But all I am saying is that we are not omniscient. .... S: In this context of the all, of the 12 ayatanas, nibbana is included in dhammayatana, as I just mentioned and as the commentary makes very clear. There is no other dhamma, no other reality outside this "All". Read B.Bodhi's summary of the commentary on the meanings of "All" (sabba) in different contexts: In SN 35.23 (1) The All "Spk: The all (sabba) is fourfold: (i) the all- inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e. everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (ii) the all of the sense bases (ayatanasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the four planes; (iii) the all of personal identity (sakkayasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the three planes; and (iv) the partial all (padesabba), i.e. the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended. The four planes are the three mundane planes (see n.4 'the sensuous plane, the form plane, and the formless plane') and the supramundane plane (the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbana)." I hope this clarifies. Metta Sarah ===== #122829 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: 1.With regard to Dieter's suggestion that "avijja-sankhara" is not "contained within the khandhas", both avijja (ignorance) and cetana (intention/kamma/sankhara) are included in sankhara khandha. D: that isn't my suggestion, Sarah. I discussed this with Nina before . e.g. S.N. XII 2: And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form. "And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. "And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications. "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance. sankhara khanda is defined by 'intention, contact, & attention' avijja-sankhara is (accumulated) past which conditions the mental-bodily consciousness , i.e. the khandas S: R: Buddha did say quite explicitly that all dhammas are not-self, and that all of the khandas are not-self, going through each of them one by one. The reasoning that he gives for why the khandas are not a self or part of self is that one cannot control them or make them do what one wants. That is said clearly for all of the kandhas. So the question is: if none of the kandhas is oneself, which includes mind, feelings and other personality factors, then what is left to constitute a self? The only other candidate is nibbana, and so you are left in the position of either saying there is no self, or nibbana is a self. Since nibbana is also explicitly said to be not-self as well, what is left? ... S: This is well expressed D: not really ,the whole Law of Dependant Orgination describes the orgination of the whole mass of suffering .. and that means the delusion of of self too with Metta Dieter #122830 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex (122763) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > J: As far as I know, there is no commentarial basis for the distinction >you make in your points #1 and 3 above. > >======= > > A: Unfortunately I do not have some of the sources cited in that site, so I cannot check. Did you? > =============== J: I have just checked that website and cannot see any citations, just a general reference to Puggala Pannatti, Anguttara Nikaya and 'Bodhipakkhiya Dipani' by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw (and these of course are no enough to go on). However, Sarah recently quoted from a post by Nina (see below) with the following about Neyya Puggala: "neyya puggala as I explained, after much guidance. The Co. adds: noble friendship with a kaliyanamitta, asking questions, yoniso manaasikaara" > =============== > A: In the suttas there were cases like Bahiya who attained all four maggapahalas within minutes of hearing the Buddha. It seems like Bahiya was Ugghatitannu. He didn't have to engage in long and strenuous practice as is outlined in many suttas. > =============== J: I'm not aware of any reference in the texts (Tipitaka or commentary) to 'engaging in long and strenuous practice'. What suttas do you have in mind? Jon ************************ Nina wrote: >"According to the 'Designation of Human Types", Puggala Paññatti of the Abhidhamma, there are four types of people: 1: ugghatitaññu, who already during a given explanation penetrates the truth. Think of Ven. Assaji and Ven. Saariputta: after just a few words they attained: all dhammas that arise from a cause... 2. vipacitaññu: who realizes the truth after a more detailed explanation. 3. neyya puggala as I explained, after much guidance. The Co. adds: noble friendship with a kaliyanamitta, asking questions, yoniso manaasikaara. These are also conditions mentioned in the suttas. 4. padaparama, as explained, someone who understands the pariyatta, but does not attain." ************************ #122831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Scott, Certainly, I agree with you that understanding of the Dhamma can either be right or wrong. No problem! Problems may arise as to the way of presenting Dhamma, but I am glad also the style of expressing is a past issue for you. Now I just check over Rob K's points. Op 25-feb-2012, om 18:22 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > > R: "5 however someone could write a very polite, loving sounding > post, also correcting a wrong view, but stil have akusala..." > > Scott: Again true and I think that this has already been > established. This discussion is stalling on this level because this > message is what is wanted, not discussion per se. > ------ N: Here is perhaps a problem? A loving post, but we all know that after kusala cittas there are bound to be akusala, such as : I wrote this post very well, conceit! Or all sorts of expectations. Still, we should not assume that a kind post is lacking kindness or not sincere. ------- > > R: "6 the point, as he sees it, of writing on dsg is not for the > writer to try to have kusala cittas. It is to discuss Dhamma, and > it is incidental whether kusala or awareness of the present moment > arises. This is because, in his estimation, the arising of any type > of citta depends on complex conditions, not under ones control..." > ------- N: Certainly, beyond control. Nobody can try to have kusala citta. But our attitude can be: consider the opponent as a friend. That is all, and no problems as to interchange on this list. -------- > > Scott: Correct. Other statements are still about comportment and > I'm not discussing that level of things. I consider that having > posts moderated is supposed to take care of that and am discussing > aspects of the Dhamma in daily life as far as 'daily life' includes > interacting on a list such as this. > ------ N: Right, daily life includes also interacting on this list. We can see the value of discussing, considering points of Dhamma, also for the writer. The opponent may have a point, and this may incite us to consider more, look up texts, including commentaries. Very useful for both parties. That is bhavanaa and bhaavana is kusala. Seeing the value of performing as much kusala as one is able to through body, speech and mind, this surely helps, but no self doing so. So easily we take kusala for self. A form of wrong view.Therefore it is strange to think of people as the wrong viewers and the right viewers. But again, this is a past issue for you. So much the better. Looking forward to your posts, -------- Nina. #122832 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low ptaus1 Hi Lukas, > L: Thanks for support, since i am not doing well the recent days and also no one replies my post in a few days. Now I feel especially not good. Next to depressive moods comes huge anger afterwards. I want to leave this all, and go get drunk or something more. Not sensitive to Dhamma also. That sounds familiar. Not to demean your predicament, but I'd guess pretty much every man in his 20's feels/felt like that. Unless of course you have some issues with addiction and mental health, in what case you'd probably need to seek professional help, as Sarah and others have suggested. Otherwise, I'd suggest just hang in there, when you enter your 30's, things tend to settle down. I don't know if it's hormones or a bit more experience, but life in your 30's is a lot more mellow. Which now makes me realise why all the bands tend to mellow out as they get older. Well, except maybe Pantera. Anyway, > > pt: Whenever I end up thinking like that, for some reason I remember KenH saying "So what?" It's an unpleasant feeling, but, so what? It's still anatta. So not a bigger deal than a pleasant feeling. > > L: But it's so hopeless moment. So strucking. It's like no more energy to live. What is it though? I'd think it's mostly aversion to unpleasant feeling, so probably akusala. I think Nina or A.S. said that it takes courage to really face akusala, because it is unpleasant as you say. Usually the first inclination is to run towards something that's supposedly pleasant like getting drunk, sex, food, etc. This inclination is of course craving (which usually comes with a pleasant feeling). There's a sutta that says something to the effect that the only way most people know how to deal with unpleasant is by running after something pleasant. But that of course doesn't solve the problem, just temporarily postpones it. So, the only thing which helps long-term is understanding akusala as and when it arises, and understanding it as anatta. > > But, we're not all KenH. So sometimes I also remember how when you help other people, you forget about your problems and your unpleasant feeling. > > L: Well, I dont remember many moments that I could help anyone. If yes, that's gone. I dont remember it, what's more important I dont feel like helping others. Yes, these things come and go. Normal. > L: But when I feel a depressive moment, like this today, I cant think of anattaness. The reason of this grieve are some situations how I am treated....It breaks my heart. pt: Yes, that stuff about broken hearts is normal too, we've all been there. Sometimes I'd think in such situations - well, thankfully it's all just mental pain, so mostly of my own making, as in attachments, expectations, etc, and thankfully it's not physical - like root canal without anesthetic, now that's pain. Or on a lighter side, if you're familiar with Screamin' Jay Hawkins, there's a song Constipation blues, which purports to be about real pain (I suspect RobK might like it too). Anyway, provided you got help in terms of addiction/mental health in case you need it, then I guess the best thing I wish someone told me when I was in a situation similar to yours - keep busy. Get a job, or if you have enough money, do some volunteer work. If you don't know what to do right now, I need help right now - with some coding for a website. I got the idea yesterday, probably mostly just coding dhamma texts in html, so if you have the time and want to help, let me know, I'll email you what exactly you need to do - you can start tomorrow - or that might be today in your time-zone. Best wishes pt #122833 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:39 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, Scott, Sarah, > > > RobK: If i can butt in: > > I thinkmwhat Scott is trying to get agreement on is > > 1. There are right views and wrong views. > > 2. Each type of view is often expressed on dsg. > > > If I can also butt in - the way I'm reading Scott if I'm not mistaken is that he's saying something a bit different - that there are right and wrong way of expressing things (including things about right/wrong view). Basically - let's dispense with the truisms about the present moment and focus on what is the precise description of a Dhamma issue in terms of ideas/concepts. > > That sort of discussion approach and ensuing verification of what is right/wrong imo essentially starts to equal to science or boolean algebra even, which seems divorced from how right/wrong view actually happens - in terms of pariyatti - different words can be used to describe the same reality, or the same words can be used, but there might not be pariyatti. So, in reality it seems it's not about ideas and concepts used, but about actual arising of panna. ______________ Dear Pt I couldnt disagree more. How could a discussion progress in any meanignful way if one has to estimate who is having actual moments of panna when they wrote any post. What if a participant claims they are having real moments of actual panna when they write. But they are mistaken, or even deliberatley misleading. If I quote the visuddimagga with some of my favorite quotes as below, do you think when I do it without any panna (as is usual) that it shoulnt be allowed? Or just discounted. Who is going to judge this. What if a very sincere, kind , gently, well mannered mahayana man joins and says Nargajuna is right, rather than Buddhaghosa . Or someone says that with panna they saw GOD. Me I would disgree. But without panna I am sure, becuase panna doenst arise at will. Trying to ensure only panna posts are making a list very complicated - and bizarre. Why not simply point out " this is wrong view, that is right view", and forget about whether there is any panna at the moment of writing. . But if all you want is reminders about the present moment then that is easy. BE AWARE NOW!!! BE AWARE NOW!!! DO NOT FORGET THE PRESENT MOMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE PRESENT MOMENT - TRY TO REMEMBER! BE HERE NOW> NOW< NOW NOW> NOT TOMMOROW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW.... PRSENT PRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ============================ There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right." Visuddhimagga XIX19 QUOTE "This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person" XVIII24 QUOTE "The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll" XVII31 #122834 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Rob K, Op 26-feb-2012, om 15:39 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > > > If I quote the visuddimagga with some of my favorite quotes as > below, do you think when I do it without any panna (as is usual) > that it shoulnt be allowed? Or just discounted. Who is going to > judge this. > ------ N: Nobody else knows the moment. The fact that you appreciate this quote shows that there was pa~n~naa anyway when you read it. Then with kindness you make the effort to share it and quote it. Generosity, a Dhamma gift. Thanks about BE AWARE NOW!!! ;-)) I am missing Ken H. Nina. > #122835 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi moellerdieter Hi all, after extensive exchange of the cetasika ditthi , I think it is time to continue (planning : the Hatred Group). Concluding (so far) with words from the Master concerning view ((Anguttara Nikaya I, 27, 28,29 , trsl. by Sister Upalavanna) : . 298. Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other thing that arouses non arisen demeritorious thoughts and develops arisen demeritorious thoughts as wrong view. Bhikkhus, to one with wrong view, not arisen demeritorious thoughts arise and arisen demeritorlious thoughts develop and get completed. 299. Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other thing that arouses non arisen meritorious thoughts and develops arisen meritorious thoughts as right view. Bhikkhus, to one with right view, not arisen meritorious thoughts arise and arisen meritorlious thoughts develop and get completed. 300. Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which non arisen meritorious thoughts do not arise and arisen meritorious thoughts fade as wrong view. Bhikkhus to one with wrong view non arisen meritorious thoughts do not arise and arisen meritorious thoughts fade. . 301. Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which non arisen demeritorious thoughts do not arise and arisen demeritorious thoughts fade as right view. Bhikkhus to one with right view non arisen demeritorious thoughts do not arise and arisen demeritorious thoughts fade. 302. Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which non arisen wrong view arises and arisen wrong view develops as unwise thinking. Bhikkhus to one thinking unwisely non arisen wrong view arises and arisen wrong view develops 303. Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which non arisen right view arises and arisen right view develops as wise thinking. Bhikkhus to one thinking wisely non arisen right view arises and arisen right view develops 304. Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which a person with wrong view, after death is born in decrease, in an evil birth, in hell, as wrong view. Bhikkhus a person with wrong view is born in decrease, in an evil birth, in hell 305. Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which a person with right view, after death is born in increase, in a good birth, in heaven, as right view. Bhikkhus a person with right view is born in increase, in a good birth, in heaven. 306. Bhikkhus, to a person with wrong view his bodily, verbal and mental actions would be guided according to the standard of attainment of his view, so too his intentions, wishes, aspirations and determinations. They would be unsuitable, disagreeable, and conducive to unpleasantness. What is the reason? It is because of his wrong view. Bhikkhus, just as a nimba seed, a kosataki seed or a bitter goad seed [1] embedded in wet soil would draw the essence in the soil and water and all that essence would be bitter. In the same manner the bodily, verbal, mental actions, intentions, wishes, aspirations and determinations of a person with wrong view, would be guided according to the standard of attainment of his view and they would be unsuitable, disagreeable and conducive to unpleasantness. [1] nimba is a kind of tree and kosataki a kind of creeper, they both produces bitter tastes 307Bhikkhus, to a person with right view his bodily, verbal and mental actions would be guided according to the standard of attainment of his view, so too his intentions, wishes, aspirations and determinations. They would be suitable, agreeable, and conducive to pleasantness. What is the reason? It is because of his right view. Bhikkhus, just as a sugar cane seed, a paddy seed or a grape vine seed embedded in wet soil would draw the essence in the soil and water and all that essence would be unmixed and sweet. In the same manner the bodily, verbal, mental actions, intentions, wishes, aspirations and determinations of a person with right view, would be guided according to the standard of attainment of his view and they would be suitable, agreeable and conducive to pleasantness. 3. Tatiya vagga. 308. Bhikkhus, a certain person is born in the world for the harm, bad luck and unpleasantness of many gods and men. Who is it? It is one with wrong and perverted view. He pulls out many from right view and establishes them in wrong view. He is born in the world for the harm, bad luck and unpleasantness of many gods and men. 309. Bhikkhus, a certain person is born in the world for the welfare, good luck and pleasantness of many gods and men. Who is it? It is one with right view and unperverted view. He pulls out many from wrong view and establishes them in right view. He is born in the world for the welfare, good luck and pleasantness of many gods and men. 310. Bhikkhus, I do not know of anything so seriously bad as wrong view. Of bad things, the worst is wrong view. unquote with Metta Dieter #122836 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "...The opponent may have a point, and this may incite us to consider more, look up texts, including commentaries. Very useful for both parties. That is bhavanaa and bhaavana is kusala..." Scott: On this point I am incited to say more. As pariyatti has been discussed over time I have noted that two mutually exclusive views regarding 'looking up texts' (and I include all of the ordinary studying of words and meanings and whatnot) are expressed. This is often the case on the list when the idea of such activities is used to make other points to soothe the reactions of discussants. Here you say that this has value. At other times this activity seems to be dismissed as useless or somehow inferior to the ideal of in-the-moment satipa.t.thaana. While I acknowledge, of course, that unbidden and unlooked for moments of satipa.t.thaana are what true bhaavanaa is, and that this is not necessarily to be found in the act of 'looking up texts', I happen to value a certain comportment vis-a-vis the study of texts as it relates to discussion. I don't appreciate paraphrases of texts, I don't appreciate sloppy scholarship, I don't appreciate pedantic rigidity in the use of texts, I don't appreciate demands for proof using texts, I don't appreciate textual eclecticism and the borrowing of quotes from sources other than those I consider appropriate (ha ha). I do appreciate careful and systematic consideration of the texts and do not think that this is useless or without value. I happen to think that this too is pariyatti, despite contradictions. As for bhaavanaa being kusala, yes it is, but not all the 'looking up texts' is going to be bhaavanaa. It can only be condition for bhaavanaa - it is considering the Dhamma. Here you say that 'looking up texts' is bhaavanaa, but this has been disputed in the recent past. N: "...Seeing the value of performing as much kusala as one is able to through body, speech and mind, this surely helps, but no self doing so. So easily we take kusala for self. A form of wrong view.Therefore it is strange to think of people as the wrong viewers and the right viewers. But again, this is a past issue for you. So much the better..." Scott: I would not say 'performing as much kusala as one is able...' but would only go so far as to say that there is value in kusala. One cannot simply 'perform' kusala. I do not think of 'people as the wrong viewers' - this is not correct. I see wrong views. I don't consider 'people.' I call the wrong view expressed by Dieter, or Alex, or Rob E. by the names of the person, but it is the view that catches my attention. And, to split one final hair here, that I won't discuss comportment on the list does not mean that 'it is a past issue' - it means that I disagree with certain of the ideas about it and am through discussing it if I can avoid it. As I said, the issue has been settled instrumentally and so I offer the same sort of posts as always, which get through or not as others see fit. I don't see the value in appearing a certain way for the benefit of others, and I definitely don't see the value in calling this superficial appearance kusala. But, as I say, I am through beating this particular dead horse... Scott. #122837 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:33 am Subject: Re: sabbe dhamma truth_aerator Dear Sarah, >A: Regarding "sabbe dhamma anatta/ all dhammas are not self" . > > >Sabbe dhamma might NOT include absolutely everything imagined or >unimagined. It doesn't have to include Nibbana. See AN10.58 > > > > "All phenomena are rooted in desire" > > "All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.058.than.html > .... > S: Yes, it depends on the context. In this context, sabbe dhammaa >refers to the 5 khandhas And how do we know that sabbe dhamma anatta includes Nibbana? (Nibbana is still anatta, but is it a dhamma?) Thank you for your reply. With metta, Alex #122838 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I'll try again with you, my last comments to pt on the same theme did not make it through: S: "When there's a lot of dosa, there's often the illusion that the unpleasant mental feeling lasts a long time, but as we know, it's not like that at all..." Scott: Has DSG become a counselling service now? I don't consider it appropriate to make use of the posts of a disturbed person as vehicles for the expression of Dhamma. I think it is irresponsible. That person should seek treatment or, barring the need, discuss Dhamma and refrain from seeking attention. Scott. #122839 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:09 am Subject: Re: +AFs-dsg+AF0- Re: sabbe dhamma moellerdieter Hi Alex, all, you wrote: See AN10.58 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +ACI-All phenomena are rooted in desire+ACI- +AD4- +AD4- +ACI-All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.+ACI- +AD4- +AD4- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.058.than.html D:This short but quite interesting sutta has been treated by an essay , which includes some interesting aspects of chanda , see http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books8/Bhikkhu+AF8-Nanananda+AF8-Nibbana+AF8-Sermon+A\ F8-9.htm excerpt: Unfortunately for the sutta, its traditional commentators seem to have ignored the deeper philosophical dimensions of the above questionnaire. They have narrowed down the meaning of the set of answers recommended by the Buddha by limiting its application to wholesome mental states.+AFs-16+AF0- The occurrence of such terms as chanda, sati, sam+AOA-dhi and pann+AOA-, had probably led them to believe that the entire questionnaire is on the subject of wholesome mental states. But this is a serious underestimation of the import of the entire discourse. It actually goes far deeper in laying bare a basic principle governing both skilful and unskilful mental states. Now, for instance, the first two verses of the Dhammapada bring out a fundamental law of psychology applicable to things both skilful and unskilful: Manopubba+AO8-gam+AOA- dhamm+AOA-, manose+APEA8Q-h+AOA- manomay+AOA-.+AFs-17+AF0- Both verses draw upon this fundamental principle. Nowadays, these two lines are variously interpreted, but the basic idea expressed is that +ACI-all things have mind as their forerunner, mind is their chief, and they are mind-made+ACI-. This applies to both skilful and unskilful mental states. Now the sutta in question has also to be interpreted in the same light, taking into account both these aspects. It must be mentioned, in particular, that with the passage of time a certain line of interpretation gained currency, according to which such terms as chanda were taken as skilful in an exclusive sense. For instance, the term sati, wherever and whenever it occurred, was taken to refer to samm+AOA- sati.+AFs-18+AF0- Likewise, chanda came to be interpreted as kusalacchanda, desire or interest in the skilful, or kattukamyat+AOA-chanda, desire to perform.+AFs-19+AF0- But we have to reckon with a special trait in the Buddha's way of preaching. His sermons were designed to lead onward the listeners, gradually, according to their degree of understanding. Sometimes the meaning of a term, as it occurs at the end of a sermon, is different from the meaning it is supposed to have at the beginning of the sermon. Such a technique is also evident. The term chanda is one that has both good and bad connotations. In such contexts as chandar+AOA-ga+AFs-20+AF0- and chandaja+APw- agha+APw-,+AFs-21+AF0- it is suggestive of craving as the cause of all suffering in this world. It refers to that attachment, r+AOA-ga, which the world identifies with craving as such. But in the context chanda-iddhip+AOA-da,+AFs-22+AF0- where the reference is to a particular base for success, it is reckoned as a skilful mental state. However, that is not a sufficient reason to regard it as something alien to the generic sense of the term. with Metta Dieter #122840 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:38 am Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > 1.With regard to Dieter's suggestion that "avijja-sankhara" is not "contained within the khandhas", both avijja (ignorance) and cetana (intention/kamma/sankhara) are included in sankhara khandha. > 2. With regard to the comments about the All, as in the Sabba Sutta, pls note that nibbana is included in dhammayatana (mis-translated as "intellect & ideas" in the quote given (#122666). The inner and outer ayatanas are given. Dhammayatana includes subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana. (see more under "Sabba Sutta" in U.P. ) Thanks, this resolves some of those issues, though it also makes clear how much more study I need to understand the specifics of the kandhas and the ayatanas, not to mention the chain of DO. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #122841 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low truth_aerator Scott, all, >Scott: Has DSG become a counselling service now? I don't consider it >appropriate to make use of the posts of a disturbed person as vehicles >for the expression of Dhamma. I think it is irresponsible. That >person should seek treatment or, barring the need, discuss Dhamma and >refrain from seeking attention. > Dhamma is the best "psychotherapy". With best wishes, Alex #122842 From: "colette_aube" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube Hi Scott, Rather MYOPIC of you, don't you think? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" > Scott: Has DSG become a counselling service now? I don't consider it appropriate to make use of the posts of a disturbed person as vehicles for the expression of Dhamma. I think it is irresponsible. That person should seek treatment or, barring the need, discuss Dhamma and refrain from seeking attention. > > Scott. colette: admittedly, this discussion group is far from any worthy therapy that a person that needs therapy should be dealing with. HOWEVER, APPLIED DHARMA is one of the few ways that a person can gain EXPERIENCE so crying about the methodology used is a tad near-sighted. <....> My mistake, hold it: "...barring the need, discuss Dhamma and refrain from seeking attention." While I enjoy a "crafty devil" now and then, it appears that you haven't the slightest idea or concept of what DHARMA IS because you make it clear that Lukas IS NOT DISCUSSING DHARMA. Did I or didn't I come out my meditation to make that point? Maybe I'll meditate about that? toodles, colette #122843 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:31 am Subject: The True Torch! bhikkhu5 Friends: The True Dhamma Makes U Safe! The Buddha-Dhamma is a Torch, since it guides beings through the Darkness! The Buddha-Dhamma is a Boat, since it brings beings across to the far Shore! The Buddha-Dhamma is a Mirror, since it shows beings, how they Actually are! The Buddha-Dhamma is a Medicine, since it cures beings from deep Diseases! <...> The True Torch! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #122844 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 colette, c: "Rather MYOPIC of you, don't you think?..." Scott: Of course, my opinion, naturally... Scott. #122845 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Alex, A: "Dhamma is the best 'psychotherapy'." Scott: It is my opinion that statements such as these are nonsensical rhetoric. This is completely oblique to my point that the list is not a counselling centre. Scott. #122846 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low truth_aerator Scott, > A: "Dhamma is the best 'psychotherapy'." > > Scott: It is my opinion that statements such as these are nonsensical rhetoric. This is completely oblique to my point that the list is not a counselling centre. > > Scott. Buddha taught "suffering and its cessation". How does cessation of suffering and kilesas not count as advanced "psychotherapy" (in a good way?) Alex #122847 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Alex, A: "Buddha taught 'suffering and its cessation'. How does cessation of suffering and kilesas not count as advanced 'psychotherapy' (in a good way?)" Scott: Apples and oranges. Applied 'religion' masquerading as 'psychotherapy' has never and will never be the Dhamma. When the complexity of the Dhamma is misunderstood then one comes up with these romantic notions of 'applied boodism' and it's efficacy as 'therapy.' When this occurs, then all that one is referring to is ordinary 'psychotherapy' and this, then, is a worldly pursuit best pursued in the world and divorced from all the confusion of cross-insemination and hybrid theories. Scott. #122848 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low truth_aerator Scott, > Scott: Apples and oranges. Applied 'religion' masquerading as >'psychotherapy' has never and will never be the Dhamma. >================== Ordinary religions are not concerned with eradication of all Dukkha. They also are based on Blind Faith. Dhamma deals with eradication of all suffering (which is mental), in the here and now. In this way there is overlap with psychotherapy that works and altering perceptions so not to suffer. Of course psychotherapy is very limited and not as good as Dhamma. But it does have some overlap. With best wishes, Alex #122849 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Alex, A: "Ordinary religions are not concerned with eradication of all Dukkha. They also are based on Blind Faith. Dhamma deals with eradication of all suffering (which is mental), in the here and now. In this way there is overlap with psychotherapy that works and altering perceptions so not to suffer. Of course psychotherapy is very limited and not as good as Dhamma. But it does have some overlap." Scott: I'm leaving this, Alex, after this last statement. Apples and oranges. These notions about the Dhamma (and psychotherapy, for that matter) are *rhetorical* and misinformed. It is simply foolish to suggest to someone with a mood disorder or an addiction problem that 'the Dhamma deals with eradication of all suffering (which is mental)' and imagine that the expression of this magic dictum will suffice. This is a completely idealistic, wrong-headed, and 'ordinary-boodist' religious notion. It will never, ever help anyone. Scott. #122850 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:41 pm Subject: Dhamma is the best psychotherapy. truth_aerator Scott, >Scott: Apples and oranges. These notions about the Dhamma (and >psychotherapy, for that matter) are *rhetorical* and misinformed. >============================== Both are similar in that they work on the mind and perception of things. Of course Dhamma does it better and hence why I recommend it as more effective than Psychotherapy. >It is simply foolish to suggest to someone with a mood disorder It is bad to suggest to take a pill considering that it can make people homicidal and suicidal. Dhamma works at the mind even better than psychotherapy. With best wishes, Alex #122851 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Han, (a little late...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Three bows to you! > I got it. > I found two sources for the same material. > > A Treatise on the Paramis > A Discourse from the Majjhima Nikáya > Ã�cariya Dhammapála > Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi > http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Wheels/wh_409_411.html > > A Treatise on the Paramis > From the Commentary to the Cariyapitaka > by Acariya Dhammapala > translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html ... S: I was interested that you found the first source as well. Thank you also for providing the clear list below. Helpful for wise reflection! >... And sense pleasures, > > (i) like a drop of honey smeared over the blade of a sword, give limited satisfaction and entail abundant harm. > (ii) They are fleeting like a show perceived in a flash of lightning; > (iii) enjoyable only through a perversion of perception like the adornments of a madman; > (iv) a means of vengeance like a camouflaged pit of excrement; > (v) unsatisfying like a thin drink or the water moistening the fingers; > (vi) afflictive like food which is inwardly rotten; > (vii) a cause for calamity like a baited hook; > (viii) the cause of suffering in the three times like a burning fire; > (ix) a basis for bondage like monkey’s glue; > (x) a camouflage for destruction like a murderer’s cloak; > (xi) a place of danger like a dwelling in an enemy village; > (xii) food for the Maara of the defilements like the supporter of one’s foes; > (xiii) subject to suffering through change like the enjoyment of a festival; > (xiv) inwardly burning like the fire in the hollow of a tree; > (xv) fraught with danger like a ball of honey suspended from the bulrushes in an old pit; > (xvi) intensifying thirst like a drink of salt water; > (xvii) resorted to by the vulgar like liquor and wine; > (xviii) and giving little satisfaction like a chain of bones.â€� .... > Han: If I can find Paa.li text I will come back to you. S: When I have a little more time, I'll check as well (unless anyone else does in the meantime). Metta Sarah ====== .... #122852 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:39 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low szmicio Hi Scott, > Scott: I would not use this list as a substitute for proper treatment, if I were you. L: Well, maybe you are right. Isnt it not proper to post too private topics? Or topics that maybe go away a bit from Dhamma? Best wishes Lukas #122853 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low szmicio Hi pt, > That sounds familiar. Not to demean your predicament, but I'd guess pretty much every man in his 20's feels/felt like that. Unless of course you have some issues with addiction and mental health, in what case you'd probably need to seek professional help. L: Is there any help you may suggest? The treatment itself does not sound bad, but I really have no idea where I should go. > There's a sutta that says something to the effect that the only way most people know how to deal with unpleasant is by running after something pleasant. But that of course doesn't solve the problem, just temporarily postpones it. So, the only thing which helps long-term is understanding akusala as and when it arises, and understanding it as anatta. L: Well, I often found that regular listening and reading Dhamma is helpful, but I am very lazy to do this. > pt: Yes, that stuff about broken hearts is normal too, we've all been there. L: Yeap. I remember my friends in such a situations before. First they were very sad and cried than the big anger always comes. Almost a pattern. >Sometimes I'd think in such situations - well, thankfully it's all just mental pain, so mostly of my own making, as in attachments, expectations, etc, and thankfully it's not physical - like root canal without anesthetic, now that's pain. L: Well, sometimes it seems mental pain may be more 'painful' than physical pain, I think. That's funny how some people even with this moments of deep deep mental grieving, can be stil kind and full of kusala. Well, I cant. > Anyway, provided you got help in terms of addiction/mental health in case you need it, then I guess the best thing I wish someone told me when I was in a situation similar to yours - keep busy. Get a job, or if you have enough money, do some volunteer work. If you don't know what to do right now, I need help right now - with some coding for a website. I got the idea yesterday, probably mostly just coding dhamma texts in html, so if you have the time and want to help, let me know, I'll email you what exactly you need to do - you can start tomorrow - or that might be today in your time-zone. L: Well sounds good :P How much u pay :P ? Of course joke. Yes I feel I can try with a little task for now. Latter we will see. Thank u very much for your help and answer. Best wishes Lukas #122854 From: Lukas Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:24 pm Subject: Patticcasamupada szmicio Dear friends, I feel like hearing more on patticcasamupada, and explanation of dependent origination. Best wishes Lukas #122855 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Lukas, L:" Well, maybe you are right. Isnt it not proper to post too private topics? Or topics that maybe go away a bit from Dhamma?" Scott: Yes. You've got it. Privacy. Boundaries. This list is for talking about the Dhamma. These other things are for your own private life. Talk to a therapist. Talk to yourself. <....> Scott. #122856 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:14 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low jonoabb Hi Lukas (and Scott) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Lukas, > > L:" Well, maybe you are right. Isnt it not proper to post too private topics? Or topics that maybe go away a bit from Dhamma?" > =============== J: It's a question of degree. The sharing of daily life experiences and their consideration from a Dhamma perspective is encouraged. If, however, professional help is needed it should of course be sought (i.e., as well). > =============== > Scott: Yes. You've got it. Privacy. Boundaries. This list is for talking about the Dhamma. These other things are for your own private life. Talk to a therapist. Talk to yourself. <....> > =============== J: As I said above, it's a matter of degree. Not quite so black and white! Jon #122857 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance and forgetfulness. An extract from Dhamma talks. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, I was very glad to read the extract from the Dh discussion you listened to: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > I've heard this from March 2011 Dhamma discussions: > > > Acharn: Ignorance of reality means that you know nothing about realities at all. And forgetful even one knows or heard about, visible object, what about that? It's still not understanding visible object as just reality. > > Phil: So ignorant of realities, means we dont have any accumulated panna of realities?! So we are forgetful, once we've heard a Dhamma..to any degree.. > > Acharn?: And the moment of forgetful, there must be avijja too. Not enought panna, to be not forgetful.... > > ...The more we dont think about oneself, that's the right way to understand the teachings.> .... S: Yes, most of the day there is forgetfulness and ignorance - "not enough panna, to be not forgetful". It's the same for all of us - lots and lots of forgetfulness and ignorance. However, this doesn't mean there cannot be moments of panna arising and undersanding a reality for a moment and then gone. As K. Sujin says: "The more we dont think about oneself, that's the right way to understand the teaching". When there's more and more appreciation of just dhammas, there's less and less concern (very gradually) about *Me* and *My problems*. This is how we see that the Buddha is the best doctor and the Dhamma is the best medicine of all. ... > > L: Next to moha, ignorance and forgetfulness, lack of sati, there is also a wrong view, ditthi, that hinders very much a Path. I think when wrong view doesnt arise, there is a more conditions for panna, amoha and sati, that is not forgetfulness of realities. That is a right view, samma-ditthi, that understands. But isnt it amoha and samma-ditthi the same? .... S: As you suggest, wrong view is the greatest hindrance, so however difficult life may seem, if wrong view isn't arising, there can be understanding of any reality. Amoha cetasika is panna or samma-ditthi. Not all panna or samma-ditthi is concerned with the path, however. For example, at moments of samatha bhavana, there is samma-ditthi, but no understanding of realities. Pls let me know your further thoughts and reflections on this topic. I'd also be glad if you'd share some more brief transcripts from the audio discussions with your comments. It's helpful for us all and, as we know, dhamma dana, is the best dana. Metta Sarah ====== #122858 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" sarahprocter... Hi pt & Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > >A: It is very complex reply. The Buddha was clear that natthatta is wrong (anihhilationist) view, while anatta is correct one. > >PT: Sorry about complexity, i'll try express it a bit differently. I think the annihilationist view refers to the instance of arising of wrong view (ditthi) with citta, while anatta usually refers to the instance of arising of understanding (panna) with citta - it is panna that understands anatta nature of a khanda. > > >A: Anatta is never equated to natthatta (there is no self). > >PT: I used to get the impression that people here equate anatta with natthatta, but upon closer inspection, I think most here use the words "there is no self" to refer to the instance of anatta, so to the arising of panna, (and possibly sometimes to Dhamma niyama), but not to the arising of ditthi (natthatta). The fact that the words used are virtually the same in both cases is probably just a language problem. So basically, it's cittas and cetasikas that make the difference, not the words that describe them. ... S: I agree with Pt - "It's cittas and cetasikas that make the difference, not the words that describe them." Reminds me of the Dighanakha Sutta, MN 74 From an earlier post I wrote with regard to Dighanakha's annihilationist beliefs: S: >"The view of those ascetics and brahmins who are of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me' is close to non-attachment, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-cleaving, close to non-grasping". (Dighanakha Sutta) [S: "close to" in language, but not close to in terms of understanding.] ..... S: The Nanamoli/Bodhi translation gives a note about the commentary explanation of Dighanakha's view (`nothing is acceptable to me' or as you translate 'everything is not pleasing to me'), saying it is an annihilationist (ucchedavaadin) view and that it `explains this assertion to mean: `No [mode of] rebirth is acceptable to me'. ...... When the Buddha questions whether the view itself is acceptable to Dighanakha (called Aggivessana by him), the latter agrees it `would be the same'. More notes from the commentary as paraphrased say: `the Buddha suggests, by his question, that Dighankakha's assertion involves an inherent contradiction, for he cannot reject everything without also rejecting his own view, and this would entail the opposite position, namely that something is acceptable to him. However, though Dighankha recognises the implication of the Buddha's question, he continues to insist on his view that nothing is acceptable to him.' ..... As the notes also point out, having clearly identified the view above with `annihilationism', `annihilationism is close to non-lust,etc, because, though involving a wrong conception of self, it leads to disenchantment with existence.'< .... Metta Sarah ===== #122859 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:46 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance and forgetfulness. An extract from Dhamma talks. szmicio Dear Sarah, Just one thought. > Amoha cetasika is panna or samma-ditthi. Not all panna or samma-ditthi is concerned with the path, however. L: I would say: 'Not all panna is concerned with the path'. I think that samma-ditthi is the kind of panna that understand realities, nama and ruupa in the moment of satipatthana. Other panna of samatha itself is not called samma-ditthi. When samatha bhavana developed then not neccesserily panna that understand realities comes to be. Than no right view, samma-ditthi, I think. >For example, at moments of samatha bhavana, there is samma-ditthi, but no understanding of realities. L: Somewhere I met that both samma-ditthi and samma-sankkapa is grouped as panna? So then we cant say that samma-ditthi itself is panna? Why this differentiation is made? I think that was Ven. Ledi Sayadow that mentioned that. Best wishes Lukas #122860 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:59 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Scott and Pt, This is a difficult thread to follow, so forgive me if I am missing the point: ---- <. . .> S: Reminders about the present moment are statements. They do not represent discussion. <. . .> And, need I remind you, you are suggesting it to someone for whom the importance of the moment is well-established. The words on this list are not and will never be 'the moment.' ---- KH: The words on this list (or on any true Dhamma forum) *describe* the present moment, don't they? That's what the Dhamma does, so what else would a Dhamma discussion do? Every word on DSG must be understood in terms of satipatthana - right understanding of the present moment reality. Ken H #122861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Extracts by Lukas. nilovg Dear Lukas, Thank you, very helpful. See that you can help others! This is what pt was referring to. You can! Then your problems will feel less heavy. I like to repeat Ven. Samahita: ----- Nina. #122862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Scott (and Rob K) Op 26-feb-2012, om 16:16 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > I do appreciate careful and systematic consideration of the texts > and do not think that this is useless or without value. I happen to > think that this too is pariyatti, despite contradictions... > > As for bhaavanaa being kusala, yes it is, but not all the 'looking > up texts' is going to be bhaavanaa. It can only be condition for > bhaavanaa - it is considering the Dhamma. Here you say that > 'looking up texts' is bhaavanaa, but this has been disputed in the > recent past. ------- N: Of course bhaavana is kusala and this includes looking up texts, considering the Dhamma. I do not speak here of looking up texts with other motives but gaining more understanding. ------ > > > Scott: I would not say 'performing as much kusala as one is > able...' but would only go so far as to say that there is value in > kusala. One cannot simply 'perform' kusala. > ------ N: I use the word perform, but I can substitute it with other words. Say, develop, sounds better? Yes, as much as one is able to, because it depends on accumulations, doesn't it? There may be times that it is really difficult to have kusala citta. But, the situation is not hopeless. Through the Dhamma one can see the value of all kinds of kusala, even if it is slight, a small gesture, a kind word here and there. What do you think? Rob K gave a reminder to be aware now, but I would like to add: and we (I include myself too!) should not forget the perfections, all of them. As to appreciation of kusala (anumodana daana), kusala is kusala, no matter what sasana one has: Christian, Jewish, Moslim. No need to analyse the cittas of others (with wrong view or not), this is irrelevant. The appreciation is with 'our own' kusala citta. -------- > S: I do not think of 'people as the wrong viewers' - this is not > correct. I see wrong views. I don't consider 'people.' I call the > wrong view expressed by Dieter, or Alex, or Rob E. by the names of > the person, but it is the view that catches my attention. > -------- N: I see your point, and this is fine, but no need to think of the view as expressed by so and so. ------- > S: And, to split one final hair here, that I won't discuss > comportment on the list does not mean that 'it is a past issue' - > it means that I disagree with certain of the ideas about it and am > through discussing it if I can avoid it. > ------ N: You are welcome to split hairs ;-)) I got your point. No problem here if we keep in mind to develop all the perfections as much as we are able to, even when writing posts. ------- Nina. > #122863 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:07 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance and forgetfulness. An extract from Dhamma talks. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > Just one thought. > > > Amoha cetasika is panna or samma-ditthi. Not all panna or samma-ditthi is concerned with the path, however. > > L: I would say: 'Not all panna is concerned with the path'. I think that samma-ditthi is the kind of panna that understand realities, nama and ruupa in the moment of satipatthana. Other panna of samatha itself is not called samma-ditthi. When samatha bhavana developed then not neccesserily panna that understand realities comes to be. Than no right view, samma-ditthi, I think. .... S: Samma-ditthi and panna are synonyms. If the ditthi is not wrong, it is right (samma). Hence, even the panna arising with the development of samatha is samma-ditthi, even when there is no understanding of realities being developed. The same applies to samadhi, viriya or other cetasikas - if they are wholesome or sobhana, they are "samma". I agree that in the texts, samma-ditthi is usually referring to the first path factor. I think that if you look in the Vibhanga or other texts, this will be apparent. ... > >For example, at moments of samatha bhavana, there is samma-ditthi, but no understanding of realities. > > L: Somewhere I met that both samma-ditthi and samma-sankkapa is grouped as panna? So then we cant say that samma-ditthi itself is panna? Why this differentiation is made? I think that was Ven. Ledi Sayadow that mentioned that. .... S: They are grouped under the understanding part of the path, just as samma-vayama, samma-sati and samma-samadhi are group under the concentration part of the path. It doesn't mean that samma-samadhi is not samadhi:) Metta Sarah ==== #122864 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:45 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low ptaus1 Hi Lukas, > L: Is there any help you may suggest? The treatment itself does not sound bad, but I really have no idea where I should go. pt: I think it depends on how the health system works in Poland. Here in Australia, if you feel you have a problem, you can go to your doctor - general practitioner, and ask him what are your options. He can then give you a referral for several counseling sessions where you get to talk about your problems with a trained specialist. If it turns out you have a more serious problem, you can then be further referred to a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist if your condition requires medication. Some of my clients have serious depression issues in addition to other health problems, and they require daily medication to function properly, and if that's what's needed, then that's what's needed. There are other options, services and community initiatives that are geared towards helping people get through their various problems, be it with drugs, health, relationships, etc. Perhaps a visit to your local council might provide a lot of information about what's available in your local area. There must be a lot of stuff online as well. For example, I just googled "Alcoholics anonymous Poland", and it gave me this link: http://www.aa.org.pl/ As far as I know, that's an international organisation known for helping people overcome alcohol addiction, and there must be other organisations in your area as well. Usually they function on the premise of people supporting eachother not to drink. Of course, some of these incorporate religion into their programmes, which in Poland will probably mean Catolicism, but I don't think it matters that much. It's up to you to find a group of people with whom you feel at ease. > L: Well, I often found that regular listening and reading Dhamma is helpful, but I am very lazy to do this. :) That's very honest. That's how things are, laziness and interest too come and go. > > pt: Yes, that stuff about broken hearts is normal too, we've all been there. > > L: Yeap. I remember my friends in such a situations before. First they were very sad and cried than the big anger always comes. Almost a pattern. Yes, I think some say there's like a 5 or 7 step process - denial, pain, anger, depression, recovery... if it's not outdated already. Anyway, I find often all this anger, sadness, etc are centered on the other person who supposedly did us wrong, but usually, when you really look at it, the hurt is there because my own expectations and desires didn't come true, so basically, the hurt is of my own making. > L: Well, sometimes it seems mental pain may be more 'painful' than physical pain, I think. That's funny how some people even with this moments of deep deep mental grieving, can be stil kind and full of kusala. Well, I cant. These things also come and go. Sometimes there are conditions for it, sometimes not, as you know. Even posting some of your Dhamma questions and comments here is already helpful for many of us. Seemingly a small thing to do, but very valuable. > L: Well sounds good :P > How much u pay :P ? Of course joke. > Yes I feel I can try with a little task for now. Latter we will see. Glad to hear it. I'll email you offlist tonight with a few details. Best wishes pt #122866 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the threefold training. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Lodewijk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > --------- > N: Thank you for your sympathy. It was the husband of Lodewijk's late > sister. There were many anecdotes from the past. This reminded me of > a passage from a recording with Kh Sujin I just heard: > sound, visible object, but they are no more. "My personality" of the > past is no more. When we are clinging to the past we are clinging to > what is void. But what appears now is gone already. Thinking of the > past can remind us that the past is no more, and that it is best to > be aware now. > When we are ignorant, we are annoyed with someone else and we cannot > forgive. Why? What is past has gone already.> .... S: Also, our condolences. Excellent reminders about thinking of the past. "What is past has gone already." Excellent examples of the best healing medicine as found in the Dhamma. Also, our sympathies with the Dutch royal family and people with regard to the accident of the prince you mentioned. Yes, very similar to my friend's accident in terms of the deprivation of oxygen to the brain and the coma with no one knowing what the outcome will be. It's a very difficult situation for the family. One moment the person is in good health and happy, the next in the accident and coma. We never know. Once again, there are all the stories, the clinging to personality, when there can be awareness of realities at this very moment. Like you, I think it's helpful to reflect on our daily lives, the ordinary events, all in the light of the dhamma. We encourage everyone to share in this way. Metta Sarah ==== #122867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low nilovg Dear Scott and Sarah, Op 26-feb-2012, om 18:56 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > S: "When there's a lot of dosa, there's often the illusion that the > unpleasant mental feeling lasts a long time, but as we know, it's > not like that at all..." > > Scott: Has DSG become a counselling service now? ------- N: This post and any post here is also written for others, that is why we are on a forum. I myself find it a good reminder. I just talked to Lodewijk about this subject. We keep on being sad about prince Friso who was in a ski accident, from the moment we wake up in the morning. It seems that sadness lasts. But it arises and falls away. How we forget. When we are unable to help someone, there can be equanimity. Everyone is heir to his deeds, it is all conditioned by kamma. Yes, remembering this is helpful, I find. Sarah, thank you for your sympathy and condolences. And this is very good: Sarah: Pt took so much trouble to help Lukas, and also this is an opportunity to have anumodana daana. Once more it appears how he is always ready to help in many ways. ----- Nina. #122868 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:35 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. ptaus1 Hi RobK, Thanks for your reply. > RK: I couldnt disagree more. I'd appreciate it if we could discuss this a bit more because the issues you raised don't seem to address anything I've said, so I still wonder about the source of disagreement. I'll address your points below in order to focus the discussion perhaps. > RK: How could a discussion progress in any meanignful way if one has to estimate who is having actual moments of panna when they wrote any post. I don't think anyone's suggesting this needs to be estimated. I think we all agree that arising of panna cannot be summoned on command, nor is it possible to tell (short of the powers of a Buddha) if there's panna arising for the other person. I'm not sure why you assume this to be the argument. My comments regarding the possibility of absence of panna when one is quoting texts etc is simply a reminder of the possibility of akusala, akin to your reminders of the possibility of akusala when one attempts meditation or something else. All these are activities, but it's the dhammas that make the difference. > RK: What if a participant claims they are having real moments of actual panna when they write. But they are mistaken, or even deliberatley misleading. pt: What you are saying is of course possible, but most here have not made such claims, and most haven't made claims to have more panna/better understanding than someone else. Sure, some have, but that only revealed that things were probably exactly the opposite so there was no need for further comment. Either way, my argument about the value of daily reminders did not imply that people must have panna when they are writing. Again, such premise is a bit absurd and I'm not sure why you assume that to be the argument. Writing/reading reminders and truisms about daily life might be helpful for present-moment reflection, but they don't guarantee panna for reader/writer. Again, ultimately it's not the words but dhammas that make the difference. > RK: If I quote the visuddimagga with some of my favorite quotes as below, do you think when I do it without any panna (as is usual) that it shoulnt be allowed? Or just discounted. Who is going to judge this. pt: I hope I explained above why I don't quite understand why you assume that to be the argument. > RK: What if a very sincere, kind , gently, well mannered mahayana man joins and says Nargajuna is right, rather than Buddhaghosa . > > Or someone says that with panna they saw GOD. > Me I would disgree. But without panna I am sure, becuase panna doenst arise at will. > Trying to ensure only panna posts are making a list very complicated - and bizarre. pt: Again, I hope I explained above why I don't quite understand why you assume that to be the argument. > RK: Why not simply point out " this is wrong view, that is right view", and forget about whether there is any panna at the moment of writing. pt: This is why not imo: 1. We can't know whether right/wrong view is arising for the other person. Nor for that matter what's arising in our case most of the time. 2. The fact that the other person is using "right/wrong" words and terms still doesn't really say whether there's right/wrong view arising for him. 3. The only way that it could be said that someone saying something is "right/wrong" is if we reduce the discussion to a scholarly debate, which sets certain definitions of right/wrong terms and expressions. I feel there's a place for scholarly debate here, but there's also place for more - reminders about present moment, daily life, personal stories and problems, etc. All these are occasions for wise reflection, as good as any scholarly debate. 4. Thus, I feel the goal of the discussion which is not strictly scholarly is not to establish rightness/wrongeness, but it's simply an excuse to reflect on Dhamma, possibly in a wise manner. Sure, there might not be agreement between the two parties in the end, but that wasn't the goal in the first place, but the goal was a simple sharing of goodwill and an excuse to reflect on Dhamma. Sure, we can also agree we're going to restrict ourselves to scholarly discussion, and then settling matters is easy - commentary says this, a bhikkhu says that, let's go with this definition, and that's that, no dramas. 5. We should mind our own cittas, regardless of what the daily activity. "Should" not as a technique, but as a description of how bhavana takes place. So, again as a reminder, not as a prescription of how things should be done. > RK: But if all you want is reminders about the present moment then that is easy. > BE AWARE NOW!!! pt: Thanks :) > There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right." > > Visuddhimagga XIX19 > QUOTE pt: Thanks, as I've said before, I always appreciate your commentary quotes. Best wishes pt #122869 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:21 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. rjkjp1 dear Pt Your post helps me to understand why I feel it is not very productive to post on dsg. I respond though so as you understand. --- In dhammast.udygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > My comments regarding the possibility of absence of panna when one is quoting texts etc is simply a reminder of the possibility of akusala, akin to your reminders of the possibility of akusala when one attempts meditation or something else. All these are activities, but it's the dhammas that make the difference. +++++++++++++++++++++ You equate writing on a forum with meditation. To me writing on a forum is only to express views. Is that what people think they do when they meditate? +++++++++ > ++++++++++ ultimately it's not the words but dhammas that make the difference. +++++++++++++ This idea that words have no value and no relationship to wrongview or rightview is enough for me to feel that it is pointless to write anything, I appreciate you saving me the time. -------------- > > > > RK: If I quote the visuddimagga with some of my favorite quotes as below, do you think when I do it without any panna (as is usual) that it shoulnt be allowed? Or just discounted. Who is going to judge this. > > pt> pt: This is why not imo: > > 1. We can't know whether right/wrong view is arising for the other person. Nor for that matter what's arising in our case most of the time. > > 2. The fact that the other person is using "right/wrong" words and terms still doesn't really say whether there's right/wrong view arising for him. ++++++++++ If someone says " GOD is the creator of the universe. I absoluetly know and believe it" we don't know if he is having any wrong view? Again what a complete waste of time I feel all my posts have been on dsg. ===== > > 3. The only way that it could be said that someone saying something is "right/wrong" is if we reduce the discussion to a scholarly debate, which sets certain definitions of right/wrong terms and expressions. I feel there's a place for scholarly debate here, but there's also place for more - reminders about present moment, daily life, personal stories and problems, etc. All these are occasions for wise reflection, as good as any scholarly debate. > > 4. Thus, I feel the goal of the discussion which is not strictly scholarly is not to establish rightness/wrongeness, but it's simply an excuse to reflect on Dhamma, possibly in a wise manner. Sure, there might not be agreement between the two parties in the end, but that wasn't the goal in the first place, but the goal was a simple sharing of goodwill and an excuse to reflect on Dhamma. Sure, we can also agree we're going to restrict ourselves to scholarly discussion, and then settling matters is easy - commentary says this, a bhikkhu says that, let's go with this definition, and that's that, no dramas. _______ I have never made any posts (ok maybe one or two, like mentioning a photo I uploaded) in 12 years of being on dsg that were anything other than scholarly or simply about view. But anyway the mods have given you the nod it seems. Best I get out of the way. I prefer the discussions in saturday afternoon in bangkok. It gets surreal on dsg. Robert #122870 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low ptaus1 Hi Scott, > ...my last comments to pt on the same theme did not make it through: I had a chance to read your post to me in one of the moderator folders. I don't really have any major objections to the issues you raise. Certainly, the risks involved and the danger of misuse are always there and it's good to be reminded about it. Regarding the purpose of the list, I imagine that you probably see it as a place for predominantly scholarly debate on Dhamma issues. I see it as something more - basically a part of my community. On that basis, my understanding is that community support entails three major areas that every member of the community should have access to/be encouraged to access: 1. Support of family and friends 2. Support of wider community groups (religious, activist, interest etc groups). 3. Professional support (medical, legal, etc services) Taking Lukas's example, I think pretty much everyone here advised him to seek professional support (area 3). My "worldly" comments as you put it were basically what I'd tell a friend in need (area 1). As you note, we only had a little bit of Dhamma discussion (area 2), and I like to leave most of Dhamma discussion to elder members of the community. You've also questioned the motives of my messages to Lukas - thanks, it's always good to be reminded about the possibility of cheating dhammas - akusala masquerading as kusala. Best wishes pt #122871 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:16 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. ptaus1 Hi RobK, > RK: Your post helps me to understand why I feel it is not very productive to post on dsg. I respond though so as you understand. pt: Thanks for your reply. > RK: You equate writing on a forum with meditation. To me writing on a forum is only to express views. Is that what people think they do when they meditate? pt: To me it seemed I equated my giving reminders to your giving reminders. Your reminders I find helpful. My reminders you don't seem to find helpful. I'd be happy to stop giving you reminders if that'll help. > RK: This idea that words have no value and no relationship to wrongview or rightview is enough for me to feel that it is pointless to write anything, I appreciate you saving me the time. pt: Perhaps we could discuss the relationship between words and right/wrong view? I'd certainly find that helpful. > RK: If someone says " GOD is the creator of the universe. I absoluetly know and believe it" we don't know if he is having any wrong view? pt: Yes, we probably do, but here on dsg things don't seem quite so black and white. We have people saying d.o. is a flux. What does flux mean? It might mean that all dhammas are anatta and anicca. It might mean they believe in a soul that goes through constant changes. I don't know. Just because different terms are used, it doesn't mean there's necessarily wrong view. > RK: Again what a complete waste of time I feel all my posts have been on dsg. pt: For what it's worth, I don't feel they were. > RK: I have never made any posts (ok maybe one or two, like mentioning a photo I uploaded) in 12 years of being on dsg that were anything other than scholarly or simply about view. pt: That's good, so I feel the list can accommodate all sorts of discussions, or do you disagree? > RK: But anyway the mods have given you the nod it seems. Best I get out of the way. I prefer the discussions in saturday afternoon in bangkok. It gets surreal on dsg. pt: I don't think it's fair to blame it on the mods. It seems lately whenever I questioned your views, you got offended. I'm sorry. I won't question you anymore if that'll help. Best wishes pt #122872 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. moellerdieter Hi pt and all, I hope you don't mind a comment to your stated opinion and connect that opportunity for promotion of the Cetasikas In Daily Life- Project ;-) : pt: This is why not imo: 1. We can't know whether right/wrong view is arising for the other person. Nor for that matter what's arising in our case most of the time. 2. The fact that the other person is using "right/wrong" words and terms still doesn't really say whether there's right/wrong view arising for him. 3. The only way that it could be said that someone saying something is "right/wrong" is if we reduce the discussion to a scholarly debate, which sets certain definitions of right/wrong terms and expressions. I feel there's a place for scholarly debate here, but there's also place for more - reminders about present moment, daily life, personal stories and problems, etc. All these are occasions for wise reflection, as good as any scholarly debate. 4. Thus, I feel the goal of the discussion which is not strictly scholarly is not to establish rightness/wrongeness, but it's simply an excuse to reflect on Dhamma, possibly in a wise manner. Sure, there might not be agreement between the two parties in the end, but that wasn't the goal in the first place, but the goal was a simple sharing of goodwill and an excuse to reflect on Dhamma. Sure, we can also agree we're going to restrict ourselves to scholarly discussion, and then settling matters is easy - commentary says this, a bhikkhu says that, let's go with this definition, and that's that, no dramas. 5. We should mind our own cittas, regardless of what the daily activity. "Should" not as a technique, but as a description of how bhavana takes place. So, again as a reminder, not as a prescription of how things should be done. D: As you certainly know there are wholesome conditions for right view: the so-called 25 beautiful mental factors (sobhana cetasikas )are always supportive , one of them the very important mindfulness (sati ) which is the first of the 7 wings to enlightenment. The point is to know their presence or absence . This was/is my idea of the project, although I started with the unwholesome states of mind , the akusala cetasikas , because those are the trouble makers. The guideline for the attention of the mind state is provided by the Maha Satipatthana Sutta DN 22, which may be wellknown but are always a good reminder of practise. As you said we should mind our cittas and based on that knowledge we may 'occasionally compare' with others. with Metta Dieter http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.bpit.html Burmese translation with footnotes Perception of the True Nature of Mind 381. Bhikkhus, how does the bhikkhu concentrate steadfastly on the mind?[48] Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows[49] the mind accompanied by passion,[50] as 'Mind with passion'; he knows the mind unaccompanied by passion, as 'Mind without passion'; he also knows the mind accompanied by anger,[51] as 'Mind with anger'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by anger, as 'Mind without anger'; he also knows the mind accompanied by bewilderment,[52] as 'Mind with bewilderment'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by bewilderment, as 'Mind without bewilderment'; he also knows the indolent state of mind,[53] as 'Indolent state of mind'; he also knows the distracted state of mind,[54] as 'Distracted state of mind'; he also knows the developed state of mind,[55] as 'Developed state of mind'; he also knows the undeveloped state of mind,[56] as 'Undeveloped state of mind': he also knows the inferior state of mind, as 'Inferior state of mind'; he also knows the superior state of mind,[57] as 'Superior state of mind'; he also knows the mind in a state of concentration,[58] as 'Mind in a state of concentration'; he also knows the mind not in a state of concentration,[59] as 'Mind not in a state of concentration'; he also knows 'the liberated state of mind,[60] as 'Liberated state of mind'; he also knows the unliberated state of mind,[61] as 'Unliberated state of mind'. Thus the bhikkhu concentrates steadfastly on his own mind.[62] Occasionally he realizes that the mind of others must be of a similar nature. Because of this realization, he can be said to concentrate steadfastly on the mind of others. In this way, he is considered to concentrate steadfastly on his own mind or on the mind of others. When he gains more concentration, he perceives the cause and the actual appearing of the mind. He also perceives the cause and the actual dissolution of the mind. He also perceives both the actual appearing and the actual dissolution of the mind, with their causes.[63] And further, the bhikkhu is firmly mindful of the fact that there is only Mind (without soul or atta). That mindfulness is solely for gaining insights progressively, solely for gaining further mindfulness stage by stage. The bhikkhu remains detached from craving and wrong views, without clinging to any of the five khandhas that are continuously deteriorating. Bhikkhus, it is also in this way that the bhikkhu concentrates steadfastly on the mind perceiving its true nature. [End of "Perception of the True Nature of Mind"] translator's footnotes 48. I.e., citta — and perceive its impermanent, insecure, and soulless nature 49. I.e., is aware of 50. Passion, rÄga: In vipassanÄ bhÄvanÄ, the bhikkhu is liable to misunderstand passion. He may think that he is required to be mindful of strong forms of passion only. He is, in fact, required to be mindful of all forms of passion — weak, medium, strong. In vipassanÄ, it is a very important point. Whatever takes place in the six senses, however insignificant, however good or bad it is, he is required to be mindful of it. (Passion=pleasure in or craving for something). 51. Dosa: mental violence, hatred, frustration, desire to ill-treat, desire to destroy, desire to kill, are all covered by this term dosa 52. Moha: (Usually defined as stupidity, dullness of mind, bewilderment, infatuation, delusion). Moha is a cetasika that makes citta (mind) incapable of choosing between right and wrong, incapable of perceiving the four Noble Truths, incapable of practicing correctly for the perception of the four Noble Truths, incapable of adopting a proper mental attitude. It is called micchÄñÄṇa, the intellect that is capable of giving only evil counsel in all matters. Moha makes a person blind to the nature and Consequences of a demeritorious deed. 53. Saá¹…khitta citta: (lit., shrunken mind); this means indolence, lethargy, slothfulness, lack of interest in anything. (The Commentary) 54. Vikkhitta citta: A diffused or restless state of mind resulting in lack of concentration. (The Commentary) 55. Mahaggata citta: The loftiness of mind experienced in rÅ«pa-jhÄna and arÅ«pa-jhÄna. (The Commentary) 56. Amahaggata citta: (kÄmÄvacara citta): The mind as generally found in the sensuous realms, (The Commentary) 57. 'Sa-uttara', and 'anuttara' are relative terms, indicating inferior and superior states of mind. A state of mind that has some other state of mind superior to it, and is therefore inferior, is sa-uttara citta; a state of mind that is superior to some other state of mind is anuttara citta. KÄmÄvacara citta, the state of mind of the sensuous realms, is inferior to the rÅ«pa and arÅ«pa jhÄna states of mind. The rÅ«pa jhÄna state of mind is inferior to the arÅ«pa jhana state of mind, but is superior to the kÄmÄvacara state of mind. In vipassanÄ practice, the arÅ«pa jhÄna state of mind is superior to both the rÅ«pa jhÄna and the kamavacara states of mind. Within the stages of the jhÄnas themselves, each jhÄna is relatively inferior or superior, progressing to the nevasaññÄnÄsaññÄyatana jhÄna which is the highest state of mind. An ordinary yogi who has no experience of jhÄna cannot concentrate on the mahaggara or anuttara states of mind. As a matter of fact, anuttara is normally an epithet for LokuttarÄ citta or Magga-phala citta. However, in vipassanÄ practice, the yogi can concentrate only on the five upÄdÄnakkhandhas, the five Aggregates which form the objects of Clinging. He cannot concentrate on Magga-phala citta. Therefore, jhÄnas are given the epithet anuttara. (The Commentary) 58. SamÄhita citta is the mind that has samÄdhi, which is mental concentration on an object. According to the Commentary, SamÄhita citta has (1) upacÄra samÄdhi, and (2) appanÄ samÄdhi, (i.e., jhÄna). UpacÄra samÄdhi is samÄdhi that precedes, and is close to appanÄ samÄdhi, helping the latter to take place. AppanÄ samÄdhi fixes the mind on the mental object. The mind with upacÄra samÄdhi generally belongs to the sensuous state of existence. The mind with appanÄ samÄdhi belongs to the rÅ«pa (fine material) and arÅ«pa (non-material) jhÄnas. 59. AsamÄhita citta: The mind without the two kinds of samÄdhi. (The Commentary) 60. Vimutta citta: Here it means the mind temporarily liberated from moral defilements (kilesas). (The Commentary) 61. Avimutta citta: The mind not liberated from moral defilements. (The Commentary) 62. I.e., citta — and perceives its impermanent, insecure, and soulless nature 63. The causes of the appearing of the mind are: Ignorance of the four Ariya Truths, craving, kamma, the complex of mental and physical aggregates (nÄma-rÅ«pa). The disappearances of these causes result in the dissolution of the mind. #122873 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han --- On Mon, 2/27/12, sarah wrote: S: I was interested that you found the first source as well. Thank you also for providing the clear list below. Helpful for wise reflection! S: When I have a little more time, I'll check as well (unless anyone else does in the meantime). #122874 From: "azita" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:38 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. gazita2002 Hallo RobK, and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > dear Pt > Your post helps me to understand why I feel it is not very productive to post on dsg. I respond though so as you understand. > .........snip..... > But anyway the mods have given you the nod it seems. Best I get out of the way. I prefer the discussions in saturday afternoon in bangkok. It gets surreal on dsg. azita: Personally I dont think you should get out of the way, I think you should/could post parts of the sat.avo discussion - its always good and some of us will be most appreciative. You dont have to comment on replies if you so choose, but jst send in every week one or two -or 10- quotes from Ajan or whoever. I cant get back to Bkk for another few months and I'm missing you all, so please dont disappear Rob, jsst post something and dont answer comments if you dont want. Patience, courage and good cheer azita #122875 From: "colette_aube" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube Hi pt, HOLD IT, WTF. >As you note, we only had a little bit of Dhamma discussion (area 2), >and I like to leave most of Dhamma discussion to elder members of the >community. > colette: "a little bit of Dhamma discussion"? Are you nuts? EVERYTHING HAS TO DO WITH DHARMA. Just where did the Buddha put forth the caviet that the Dharma only exists to be spoken of and to be experienced by terms defined in the dharma itself, THAT THERE SHALL BE NO EXPERIENCE MENTIONED THAT IS EXPERIENCED UNLESS IT IS FIRST DESIGNATED AS A DHARMA EXPERIENCE? When I get up in the morning, drinking my coffee, is it possible for me to plan when I will have a dharma experience? Can I pencil it in somewhere? Make a specific time set aside so that I can deal with it correctly, the way that the USER'S MANUAL dictates that I have to deal with such an experience? Sorry, maybe I have to go to the PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVE who will then tell me when the state allows me to have a dharma experience. Is the PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVE the same thing as THE STATUS QUO? Are you suggesting that an ORGANIZED RELIGION is the solution to the psychological condition that any person experiences outside of the dictates of THE STATE? <.....> > You've also questioned the motives of my messages to Lukas - thanks, it's always good to be reminded about the possibility of cheating dhammas - akusala masquerading as kusala. The last paragraph of your message seems to be, appears to be, a message from MARA and that will take some time to decode since she does love to frolock in the hey now and then. toodles, colette #122876 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:07 am Subject: How to meet the next Buddha Metteyya? bhikkhu5 Friends: How to Meet Buddha Metteyya: The Buddha Metteyya, the Friendly One, will be the last & 5th Buddha in this Aeon ! 1: One should give gifts (dÄna ), 2: One should observe morality (sÄ«la ), 3: One should practice meditation (bhÄvanÄ ), 4: One should be firm and determined (dalha ), 5: One should wish sincerely to meet him with agitated mind (ubbigga-manasa ), 6: One should be stirred by an acute sense of urgency (samvega ), 7: The Observance days (uposatha ) should be rigorously kept. 8: Friendliness (mettÄ ) should be quite carefully cultivated. 9: Deep Concentration (samÄdhi ) should be regularly trained. 10: Real Understanding should be sought and achieved (pañña ). Right behaviour (action) can be compared to having sound limbs... Right understanding can be compared to being able to see... If one or the other is missing, a person will be unsuccessful. If both is fully present, the person will be fully successful. Meeting the Metteyya Buddha opens the Doors to the Deathless NibbÄna... How is The Formal Aspiration to Meet Buddha Ariya Metteyya: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Metteyya/arimet10.htm <....> He will say: "You can come as you like, but you pay as you go..." How to meet the next Buddha Metteyya? Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <....> #122877 From: "colette_aube" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube > A: "Dhamma is the best 'psychotherapy'." > > Scott: It is my opinion that statements such as these are nonsensical rhetoric. This is completely oblique to my point that the list is not a counselling centre. colette: WHAT? Alex hit the nail on the head. He drove the nail home in a single stroke. You are DEPENDENT upon this group existing on a single path that is CONTROLLED THROUGH THE USE OF GREAT WALLS, OF CONSTRAINTS, OF RULES AND REGS, OF A SMALL LITTLE KNOWN THING CALLED AN OBSCURATION. Walls tend to obsure a person vision, EYE CONSCIOUSNESS. toodles, colette #122878 From: "colette_aube" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube > Buddha taught "suffering and its cessation". How does cessation of suffering and kilesas not count as advanced "psychotherapy" (in a good way?) > > > Alex colette: You missed the point that Scott is trying to get you to obey. You also failed to recognize the rest of the Buddha's thoughts, the thought that suffering exists and there is the cessation of suffering, YET SOMEHOW YOU FORGOT THE PATH LEADING TO THE CESSATION. If we were applying the teachings in the form of a USRE'S MANUAL then you forgot that the Buddha did give a prescription, a prescribed METHODOLOGY. You've definately got a good ATTACK ANGLE on this lunacy. The majoy problem is, as I see it, that people are just too damned LAZY to dig, to do a little research. toodles, colette #122879 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:52 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 pt, Regarding: pt: "That sounds familiar. Not to demean your predicament, but I'd guess pretty much every man in his 20's feels/felt like that..." Scott: I'd be curious to know what sort of 'Dhamma' you think is involved in a post like yours, so full of ordinary advice to someone you can't possibly know? Do you see unrestrained 'counselling' as part of the accepted activities of the list? Disturbed people should seek professional help. Period. That does *not* include this list, or your advice. The offering of advice is a dangerous activity, did you know that? It might look good to others - what a caring fellow he is to be so full of helpful suggestions - but this borders on folly. Worse, if the woes of someone are used to be a springboard to offering Dhamma points, then this is absolutely and opportunistically parasitic. I'd be interested in reading you explanations for this. Scott. #122880 From: "colette_aube" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube > Scott: Apples and oranges. Applied 'religion' masquerading as 'psychotherapy' has never and will never be the Dhamma. > colette: What? You are suggesting that the suffering that Lukas is experiencing is different from the suffering that the Buddha spoke of? Tell me what suffering is? Is have experienced many surgeries because of my brash life, I have even experienced surgeries because of the treatment that society has given to me through the form of THEIR HATRED that they call LOVE. I have walked from Phoenix Arizona to Flagstaff Arizona to Gallup N.M. because of the "love" that people give to me. Tell me how have mistaken what PAIN and what SUFFERING are? > When the complexity of the Dhamma is misunderstood then one comes up with these romantic notions of 'applied boodism' and it's efficacy as 'therapy.' colette: WTF do you think mental therapy is? Does the patient participate or is it something that was given from up on high by this grandeois aristocracy who knows all and sees all? <....> There is no such thing as HOLISTIC THERAPY and there is no way that INCLUSION IN THE DISCUSIONS AND INCLUSION IN THE REALITY CAN HAVE ANY POSITIVE EFFECT ON THE PROBLEMS THAT LUKAS IS EXPERIENCING SINCE THE PROBLEMS DID NOT RESULT FROM LUKAS PARTICIPATING IN REALITY. The drug company can solve any problems that the machine created for the robots, right? ----------------------------- When this occurs, then all that one is referring to is ordinary 'psychotherapy' and this, then, is a worldly pursuit best pursued in the world and divorced from all the confusion of cross-insemination and hybrid theories. > colette: <...> for some people the only actual experience they can have in an environment where they are not PRE-JUDGED is the internet and therefore the internet can be the BEST THERAPY. <....> toodles, colette #122881 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:54 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low ptaus1 Hi Scott, > Scott: . . . ordinary advice to someone you can't possibly know? Sorry, I see now you said 'ordinary', not 'worldly', my mistake. Best wishes pt #122882 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 colette, colette: "...<...> for some people the only actual experience they can have in an environment where they are not PRE-JUDGED is the internet and therefore the internet can be the BEST THERAPY. <....>" Scott: I agree with some, but not all, of your points. Thanks. I *have* been ADDICTED to the list. Also, I have my own therapist, with whom I am satisfied. The 'internet' is not the same as any one of it's avatars. Scott. #122883 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance and forgetfulness. An extract from Dhamma talks. szmicio Dear Sarah, > S: Samma-ditthi and panna are synonyms. If the ditthi is not wrong, it is right (samma). L: I think in the kusala moments, there is no ditthi arising, but amoha, panna doesnt neccessery arise with all kusala. I would like to hear more on dvi- and ti- hetuka kusalacitta. And also on mundane and supramundane paths. > Hence, even the panna arising with the development of samatha is samma-ditthi, even when there is no understanding of realities being developed. L: Does in moments of developing samatha,there is awarness of nama and ruupa, or just non-forgetfulness of what is kusala. I think all thoses are different vibhangas, that we need consider more and more. > S: They are grouped under the understanding part of the path, just as samma-vayama, samma-sati and samma-samadhi are group under the concentration part of the path. It doesn't mean that samma-samadhi is not samadhi:) L: Thanks, this is helpful. Just designation name. Best wishes Lukas #122884 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Rob K and Azita, I join Azita, do not get out of the way. Such a good idea if Rob would send a few quotes of Ajan now and then. In this list there is opportunity for all sorts of discussions, reflections, that is why I like it so much. For those who like scholarly debates, for those who like Jataka stories and other wise lessons from the teachings, for those who appreciate reminders of the Dhamma in daily life, it should not stay in the book. Moreover, people from different backgrounds are welcome here. There is a great diversity on this list and Sarah and Jon do manage it marvelously. Anumodana. Nina. Op 27-feb-2012, om 23:38 heeft azita het volgende geschreven: > azita: Personally I dont think you should get out of the way, I > think you should/could post parts of the sat.avo discussion - its > always good and some of us will be most appreciative. You dont have > to comment on replies if you so choose, but jst send in every week > one or two -or 10- quotes from Ajan or whoever. > I cant get back to Bkk for another few months and I'm missing you > all, so please dont disappear Rob, jsst post something and dont > answer comments if you dont want. #122885 From: Lukas Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:00 am Subject: The point of studying szmicio Dear friends, I found myself that I am studing the Teachings due to some kind of relief. I am listening cause this bring me some kind of calm, taking me away from daily life problems. Maybe the point of of my studies is not to understand the Truth, but running away from daily life problems. Best wishes Lukas #122886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The point of studying nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-feb-2012, om 16:00 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I found myself that I am studing the Teachings due to some kind of > relief. I am listening cause this bring me some kind of calm, > taking me away from daily life problems. Maybe the point of of my > studies is not to understand the Truth, but running away from daily > life problems. ------- N: There may be different motives at different moments. The Buddha consoled berieved people who came to him. When they were ready for it he would explain the deeper teachings. It was good they came to him and had confidence to listen. So, it is good you have confidence in the teachings and it is natural that there are different types of cittas arising, no need to worry about that. When we think about our motives, this is only thinking and it is conditioned. Surely there is also the aim to gain more understanding of one's life and that is what matters most. ------ Nina. #122887 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:56 am Subject: Re: The point of studying truth_aerator Dear Lukas, >I found myself that I am studing the Teachings due to some kind of >relief. I am listening cause this bring me some kind of calm, taking >me away from daily life problems. Maybe the point of of my studies is >not to understand the Truth, but running away from daily life >problems. >========================================================= If Siddhartha Gotama didn't run away from his palace, wife with a child, responsibilities, etc - we would not have Buddha Gotama. Neither would some people become Arahants if they didn't run away from worldly life. With best wishes and wishing you all the best, Alex #122888 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:09 am Subject: Solitary & silenced is the Pacceka-Buddha! bhikkhu5 Friends: Gotama Buddha explained this about the Pacceka-Buddhas! The muni Vedeha (Ananda) bowing his body, asked the Tathagata, who was staying at Jetavana: PaccekaBuddhas exist, yet by what reasons do they arise, 0h wise one? Then the best of the omniscient, the great wise one told the following to Ananda in a sweet voice: Those who paid honour to all former Buddhas, without attaining liberation during the period in which their teaching was known, who are wise by means of sense of urgency, whose intelligence is very sharp, also without the instruction of Buddhas, these attain insight alone even by means of a tiny limited object of meditation... And furthermore, in this whole world, there is no one except me, equal to these PaccekaBuddhas. I shall clearly express the following, only an short description, of the distinction of these great heroic Munis (silenced ones)... Listen, all of you, who wish for the highest medicine, your attention should be very calm, always directed to their good words, which are sweet like fine honey of those great wise men, who are fully & perfectly enlightened all by themselves! These are the explanations of PaccekaBuddhas, who assembled on Mount Gandhamadana, pronounced one after the other, about the sorrow of any desire and the cause of the overcoming of all craving, & how they attained their insight. Conscious of the absence of lust, while being in the midst of the objects of lust, their minds are dispassionate in an infatuated world, having dumped the proliferations, & subdued all obstructions, they all attained insight thus: Putting aside any violence to all beings, not hurting any of them, good and compassionate, with a mind filled with friendliness, one should live, alone, like the horn of a rhinoceros... Their morality are pure, their wisdom purified, their minds are concentrated, practicing watchfulness, reflecting, seeing the characteristics of the dhamma, they understand it, having developed all the elements of the Noble Way and the Links to Enlightenment... Having perfected the fulfillment of merit, with the motive to become a solitary conqueror, they become PaccekaBuddhas, self-existent, independent, such is destination of the wise, who does not attain the state of a disciple during the time in which, there still remains the knowledge of the SammaSamBuddhas teaching... Their dhamma being great, being all sublime manifestations of the core essential dhamma, powerful are their minds, having overcome the flood of suffering, their minds are exalted, seeing the highest & deepest truth, they are like lions, like the horn of a rhinoceros... With serene senses, calm, concentrated, remembering all beings in remote border districts, illuminating like lamps in the other world and in this world, thus are these PaccekaBuddhas, always good... Having destroyed all hindrances, these kings of men, illuminators of the world, shining like pure solid gold, undoubtedly worthy of any gifts in this world, are these PaccekaBuddhas, always good... There are in this world together with the divine world, good teachings of PaccekaBuddhas. Those fools, who after having heard these, do not act accordingly, whirl round in suffering again and again... Those who act accordingly, having heard the good words of PaccekaBuddhas, which are like pure streaming honey of small delicate bees, become seers of the truths, possessing Wisdom! Thus spoke the Gotama Buddha about those solitary ones Awakened like a rhinoceros horn... Source: The Canonical Apadana I 7-14 <...> Solitary & silenced is the Pacceka-Buddha! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #122889 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:09 pm Subject: Sutta on controlling the mind truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, Jon, all, "77. Formerly this mind wondered where it wished, where it liked, as it pleased; now I shall control it properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut." Single Verses Section 8 - Hattharohaputta K.R. Normal Translation What do you think it means, especially the "now I shall control it properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut" part? With best wishes, Alex #122890 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:25 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Azita & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: The words on this list (or on any true Dhamma forum) *describe* the present moment, don't they? That's what the Dhamma does, so what else would a Dhamma discussion do? > > Every word on DSG must be understood in terms of satipatthana - right understanding of the present moment reality. .... S: Yes! I just came across this note I made from a recording of the discussion at KK last year which Azita may like: KS: "The important thing is to develop understanding of whatever appears, otherwise we talk about sila, but where is it? Where is sila? When we talk about kusala, what is it and where is it? But by understanding dhamma, one can understand everything according to its characteristic. For example, the abstention at that moment is not self, so what is it? It must be wholesome reality but there are many wholesome realities. They are 3 virati cetasikas. See? Something like that can help one to have less and less clinging to the idea of self and when there is more understanding, reality appears as it is. For example, citta is not cetasika. We learn to understand better and better about the difference." Azita, I'm wondering if you've been able to listen to the partly edited, partly uploaded discussions from KK last year (when you were present)? You might like to also share any lines that you find helpful. They're in www.dhammastudygroup.org. I like your encouragement to Rob K to share more from the Sat sessions too. It would be great to hear a little more from Bkk. Metta Sarah p.s Ken, I did try to mention your invention and need of a manufacturer/distributor at breakfast with a couple of musicians. It went down like a lead balloon, I'm afraid. They were just asking me what the invention was and weren't interested in the rest. ===== #122891 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Patticcasamupada sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > I feel like hearing more on patticcasamupada, and explanation of dependent origination. .... S: How about starting with avijja now? Is there any understanding of avijja? There is avijja arising whenever the citta is akusala. Even when the citta is not akusala, it is conditioned by past avijja - on and on. Isn't it time to develop vijja, to develop satipatthana now, no matter the dhamma being experienced? If there is a waiting for a pleasanter dhamma, for less misery, for another occasion or anything else, we just accumulate more avijja. Metta Sarah ====== #122892 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:44 pm Subject: Re: Patticcasamupada sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > >L: I feel like hearing more on patticcasamupada, and explanation of dependent origination. > .... > S: How about starting with avijja now? Is there any understanding of avijja? There is avijja arising whenever the citta is akusala. Even when the citta is not akusala, it is conditioned by past avijja - on and on. > > Isn't it time to develop vijja, to develop satipatthana now, no matter the dhamma being experienced? If there is a waiting for a pleasanter dhamma, for less misery, for another occasion or anything else, we just accumulate more avijja. ... S: I'd like to add the note Nina gave from K.Sujin's talk about the Satipatthana Sutta and in particular, the phrase: "Having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief" (vineyyea loke abhijjhadomanassam.) N:> Kh Sujin gave an explanation pertaining to the present moment. At the moment of right awareness sense-desire and anger are absent already. We do not have to worry about overcoming them first. There is no attachment to the dhamma that appears and no aversion. No preference for any object and no aversion towards akusala dhamma that presents itself as object. As to the world, the five khandhas, at the moment of right awareness one does not take any object that appears for self.< S: This is the important point, the way that avijja is eventually eradicated - through the understanding of and detachment towards whatever appears and the understanding of all dhammas as not self, not belonging to me or anyone else. Metta Sarah ===== #122893 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:52 pm Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka, hear more sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > I would like to hear more on kamma and vipaka. .... S: Seeing now is vipaka. We'd all like to see pleasant objects, hear pleasant sounds, smell pleasant odours, taste pleasant tastes, touch pleasant tangible objects and we have the illusion that somehow we can make this happen and feel disappointed when the experiences are not as we'd like them to be. We forget that all these experiences are just the result of past kamma. What about developing more kusala now, more kusala kamma now, more kusala kamma patha now? When we understand more about kamma and vipaka, there won't be so much disturbance about what is experienced - just conditioned dhammas, all with their own 'causes'. The problems in life are not these 'results', but the subsequent 'reaction' - the avijja, lobha and dosa on account of what has been experienced through the senses. Metta Sarah ===== #122895 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > S: "When there's a lot of dosa, there's often the illusion that the unpleasant mental feeling lasts a long time, but as we know, it's not like that at all..." > > Scott: Has DSG become a counselling service now? .... Sarah: I think we all share what we have learnt and found helpful. When I've had difficulties in life, such as recently when I was with my friend as she almost drowned and as she remains in a coma, it is the Dhamma I turn to every time. It is the dhamma reminders which friends here share or which I listen to on recordings which provide the sanity, the urgency of developing understanding, the emphasis on the present moment. Other friends, family, counsellors, therapists might offer friendship, kindness, support, professional guidance and an opportunity to talk - all precious, but only the understanding of dhammas provides any real cure or healing as far as I'm concerned. Of course, when it seems that we're not facing difficulties in life, it's just avijja - ignorance of the difficulties being accumulated from moment to moment. This is the reason I try to share reminders about what seems so helpful to me. When we realise, for example, that unpleasant feeling is so very brief and arises and falls away so quickly, it may be a reminder that it's another conditioned dhamma that doesn't last at all. As we know, for many people the Dhamma offers no support, no solace, no meaning at all. I also appreciate that you or others might find other kinds of professional psychoanalysis or counselling of more assistance for your needs. As we've all stressed, sometimes one needs to seek medical or other assistance, just as one takes different kinds of food as medicine. I would always say that the Dhamma is the best medicine, however - when rightly understood, as stressed in the Alagaddupama Sutta (MN 22). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel048.html Metta Sarah ===== #122896 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > 1.With regard to Dieter's suggestion that "avijja-sankhara" is not "contained within the khandhas", both avijja (ignorance) and cetana (intention/kamma/sankhara) are included in sankhara khandha. > > > > D: that isn't my suggestion, Sarah. I discussed this with Nina before . .... S: Maybe a misunderstanding here. In #122625, you wrote: >Hi Robert E, you wrote: Is there anything that is not contained within the khandas? yup.., Avijja - Sankhara with Metta Dieter< .... S: from this, I got the idea that you believed "avijja-sankhara" not to be "contained within the khandhas". I went on to clarify that: "both avijja (ignorance) and cetana (intention/kamma/sankhara) are included in sankhara khandha." ..... >D: sankhara khanda is defined by 'intention, contact, & attention' .... S: Often in the suttas, just some examples are given. In fact all cetasikas other than vedana and sanna are sankhara khandha. All conditioned dhammas are included in the khandhas. ... > avijja-sankhara is (accumulated) past which conditions the mental-bodily consciousness , i.e. the khandas .... S: All the dhammas referred to in D.O. are khandhas. The nama-rupa referred to as conditioned by sankhara refers to the vipaka cittas and cetasikas and rupas conditioned by kamma. While these dhammas are khandhas, so are all the other dhammas referred to. Nibbana is the only dhamma which is not khandha. (By the way, bodily consciousness is nama, not rupa). .... Metta Sarah ===== #122897 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, > > How to manage a bad mood. I feel them very often during a day, even listening to Dhamma. It doesnt want to stop. In that moment there is so unpleasant mental feeling. It last so long. It seems there cannot be any understanding in such a moments. ... S: See also posts in U.P. under "Discouraged? Depressed? Disappointed? Doubting?- also see 'Doubt', 'Hopeless'" Also more under "Dosa". Please share any you find particularly helpful. You can be quite sure there are always many others reading messages here who are also having difficulties, bad moods and so on, but who may not feel inclined to share and write as you do. Your messages and the replies can benefit many people reading the posts. Metta Sarah ==== #122898 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:46 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: Just to clarify a point that's been repeated a couple of times - I think I just said that since I was young I've not been inclined to kill insects. I don't think I said it was "because of the kamma" - just not the inclination to harm them, knowing how they'd like to live just like us. > > > > We may be reasonably virtuous in certain respects now or in this life, but what about next life if the understanding hasn't been sufficiently developed? There shouldn't be complacency - who knows what tests are in store or what accumulations may arise later or in another life? > > I guess what I'm suggesting is that this "conventional" sense of not wanting to kill insects, which also includes a sense of "conventional" suffering on the part of those little beings, does represent in some way the development of understanding of the dhammas involved, even though it must occur to some extent as a concept when it comes up in everyday life. .... S: There may just be natural wholesome virati (abstention from harming), natural sila. For example, a group of children may be harming insects, but one may abstain and consider the needs of those insects. At such times, there's no understanding of dhammas. There may be just moments of karuna and metta. If there's some understanding of the value of karuna and metta and abstention at such times, there can be a growth of calmness (samatha). Still, it's not the understanding of realities. At other times, children may abstain from harming because they follow an instruction or a precept. So we read in the texts that there are different kinds of virati (abstention) - natural virati, virati from following a precept/instruction, and virati with the development of insight, the highest virati. .... >Whether it is metta or kamma that is the motivation, there's some connection between refraining from akusala actions and the akusala cetana, etc., that they would represent. ... S: Definitely. When there is metta or kusala citta, the cetana is also kusala - no akusala cetana, no akusala kamma. We can learn for ourselves what the cittas are at such times. Metta Sarah ==== #122899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind nilovg Dear Alex, Op 29-feb-2012, om 3:09 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > What do you think it means, especially the "now I shall control it > properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut" part? ------- N: We always have to keep in mind that there are now citta, cetasika and ruupa, no me or we. Otherwise one may misunderstand these words and think of 'me' who can control. The indriyas, faculties are often translated as controlling factors. They have a function, they are 'leaders', each in their own field. Sati and pa~n~naa are among the 'spiritual factors' that should be developed. Are they not 'leaders', indriyas? There are the sense objects impinging time and again on the six doorways. When there is forgetfulness we are overcome by them. When sati and pa~n~naa arise there are conditions for indriya sa.mvara siila, the guarding of the doorways, so that kusala citta arises instead of akusala citta. All by conditions. If we keep this in mind there are no misunderstandings about the term control. ------- Nina. #122900 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: S: from this, I got the idea that you believed "avijja-sankhara" not to be "contained within the khandhas". I went on to clarify that: "both avijja (ignorance) and cetana (intention/kamma/sankhara) are included in sankhara khandha." ..... D: your idea is correct.. . >D: sankhara khanda is defined by 'intention, contact, & attention' .... S: Often in the suttas, just some examples are given. In fact all cetasikas other than vedana and sanna are sankhara khandha. All conditioned dhammas are included in the khandhas. D: sankhara , the 2nd of the chain and sankhara khanda , 4th , are different ... (> avijja-sankhara is (accumulated) past which conditions the mental-bodily consciousness , i.e. the khandas) .... S: All the dhammas referred to in D.O. are khandhas. The nama-rupa referred to as conditioned by sankhara refers to the vipaka cittas and cetasikas and rupas conditioned by kamma. While these dhammas are khandhas, so are all the other dhammas referred to. Nibbana is the only dhamma which is not khandha. (By the way, bodily consciousness is nama, not rupa). .... D: where do/did you get this from? I think it is rather clear that avijja -sankhara which condition vinnana (cond . nama rupa ), can not be incl. within the khandas. We speak of 5, not of 7 or 12 khandas. Compare as well with the specification: 'In S. XXII, 56, there is the following short definition of these 5 groups: "What, o monks, is the corporeality-group? The 4 primary elements (Maha-bhuta or dhatu) and corporeality depending thereon, this is called the corporeality-group. "What, o monks, is the feeling-group? There are 6 classes of feeling: due to visual impression, to sound impression, to odour impression, to taste impression, to bodily impression, and to mind impression.... "What, o monks, is the perception-group? There are 6 classes of perception: perception of visual objects, of sounds, of odours, of tastes, of bodily impressions, and of mental impressions.... "What, o monks, is the group of mental formations? There are 6 classes of volitional states (cetana): with regard to visual objects, to sounds, to odours, to tastes, to bodily impressions and to mind objects.... "What, o monks, is the consciousness-group? There are 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness." ' with Metta Dieter #122901 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 3:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. glenjohnann Dear Rob K, Azita, Nina, Sarah and All Ann: DITTO - I, like Nina and Azita, encourage Rob K to stay posted here. Appreciate your comments and discussion and the lobha arising likes the illusion of connection with you in Bangkok! Your comments, Rob, (in a subsequent post in this series!) about not knowing the citta of those posting and your quotes from the Visudhimagga are very helpful. Would love to get snippets from the Sat. discussions too. So, no disappearance, please! Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob K and Azita, > I join Azita, do not get out of the way. Such a good idea if Rob > would send a few quotes of Ajan now and then. > In this list there is opportunity for all sorts of discussions, > reflections, that is why I like it so much. For those who like > scholarly debates, for those who like Jataka stories and other wise > lessons from the teachings, for those who appreciate reminders of the > Dhamma in daily life, it should not stay in the book. Moreover, > people from different backgrounds are welcome here. There is a great > diversity on this list and Sarah and Jon do manage it marvelously. > Anumodana. > Nina. > Op 27-feb-2012, om 23:38 heeft azita het volgende geschreven: > > > azita: Personally I dont think you should get out of the way, I > > think you should/could post parts of the sat.avo discussion - its > > always good and some of us will be most appreciative. You dont have > > to comment on replies if you so choose, but jst send in every week > > one or two -or 10- quotes from Ajan or whoever. > > I cant get back to Bkk for another few months and I'm missing you > > all, so please dont disappear Rob, jsst post something and dont > > answer comments if you dont want. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #122902 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 3:51 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > We may be reasonably virtuous in certain respects now or in this life, but what about next life if the understanding hasn't been sufficiently developed? There shouldn't be complacency - who knows what tests are in store or what accumulations may arise later or in another life? Complacency I guess is never a good thing - it's finding that place between good intentions and thinking or hoping we can make things happen that is difficult. > > I guess what I'm suggesting is that this "conventional" sense of not wanting to kill insects, which also includes a sense of "conventional" suffering on the part of those little beings, does represent in some way the development of understanding of the dhammas involved, even though it must occur to some extent as a concept when it comes up in everyday life. > .... > S: There may just be natural wholesome virati (abstention from harming), natural sila. For example, a group of children may be harming insects, but one may abstain and consider the needs of those insects. At such times, there's no understanding of dhammas. There may be just moments of karuna and metta. If there's some understanding of the value of karuna and metta and abstention at such times, there can be a growth of calmness (samatha). Still, it's not the understanding of realities. This is a good distinction, but does the occurrence of such kusala without understanding still lead to the arising of more kusala in the future, and does this affect development of insight at all, or is it a completely separate track? If separate, does that non-insight-based kusala do any good in terms of the path? > At other times, children may abstain from harming because they follow an instruction or a precept. So we read in the texts that there are different kinds of virati (abstention) - natural virati, virati from following a precept/instruction, and virati with the development of insight, the highest virati. Also good distinctions. Does natural virati come from accumulation of metta or other kusala in the past? And, as usual I am having a hard time coordinating the statements about conventional actions and presence of insight - in other words, if the highest rivati is abstention from harming because of insight, why does insight have a seeming expression in conventional behavior? Is it because the conventional behavior is a sort of side-effect or sign of the abstention on the dhamma level, or is it because there is a relation between abstaining from conventional actions and the presence of understanding? Another way of asking this would be to ask if insight expresses itself in terms of abstaining from conventional harm? Do we have concern for beings arise because of insight, even though such beings are just conventional? > >Whether it is metta or kamma that is the motivation, there's some connection between refraining from akusala actions and the akusala cetana, etc., that they would represent. > ... > S: Definitely. When there is metta or kusala citta, the cetana is also kusala - no akusala cetana, no akusala kamma. This also suggests, in a way, that kusala cetana will not lead to akusala actions, so can I make a connection between such abstention and the kusala dhammas involved at the time? > We can learn for ourselves what the cittas are at such times. That is an exciting prospect, if and when such understanding occurs. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122903 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Sarah, S: "...Other friends, family, counsellors, therapists might offer friendship, kindness, support, professional guidance and an opportunity to talk - all precious, but only the understanding of dhammas provides any real cure or healing as far as I'm concerned." Scott: I have no interest in setting these so-called 'psychotherapy' examples against 'understanding of dhammas.' I've said twice that these are apples and oranges. I think that you are incorrect to be comparing them. In the above, as an aside, you refer to only the supportive aspects of 'psychotherapy' and these are of no lasting effect. In this one sense - inefficacy - I think it fair to place these two statements together. Offering support, whether couched in terms of the Dhamma or with other words, is of use only to the one who makes the offer. When you say 'only the understanding of dhammas provides any real cure or healing' you are stating a truism. You are stating a belief, no matter how well-founded, when you 'offer' this to someone else. This, to me, is merely Religion. If Jesus was your thing, you'd be trying to be supportive using Jesus language. What of the need to help? Of what does this consist? I think that one ought to be very suspicious of one's compulsion to help. Needing to help and needing to evangelize are most likely about the one with the need, and not about the so-called other. S: "...As we know, for many people the Dhamma offers no support, no solace, no meaning at all. I also appreciate that you or others might find other kinds of professional psychoanalysis or counselling of more assistance for your needs..." Scott: Again, apples and oranges. You will find that your suggestions or 'Dhamma support' might elicit good feelings in another but this isn't anything lasting or of value *from a Dhamma perspective.* This notion of 'more assistance for your needs' is a missing of the point. When one suggests that the Dhamma is the best medicine, this is obviously metaphorical. It refers to ideas about very distant events and the function of dhammas than arise with understanding. *When* the dhammas one metaphorically refers to as 'medicine' arise *then* there is something to say about them. The mere saying so doesn't magically cause any such dhammas to arise any more than sitting on a cushion does. The problem in thinking that the Dhamma *is* literally the best 'psychotherapy' is that the Dhamma is *not* psychotherapy. 'Psychotherapy' that is not a concatenation of mindless support and wanting to make someone feel good - that is, 'real' psychotherapy, not this silly thing being touted above as 'psychotherapy' - happens to function as does the world of ultimate realities, since this is what anything 'real' is founded on. There is no 'making' of things to happen. That conceptual entity known as 'the psyche' is no more to be forced that is pa~n~naa - and I am not equating 'understanding' in psychotherapy with pa~n~naa - apples and oranges. Did it ever occur to you that 'real' psychotherapy comes down to conditions, like everything else? And that none of them are one's wish to help, Only remember, these are apples and oranges. I think it's more a matter of religious fervour or outrage to be making the statements you make. It is not as if I'm saying that ordinary psychotherapy is 'better' than the Dhamma. I'm taking you to task for mixing the two in your mind in the first place, and for even thinking that a comparison can be anything more than a mere simile. There is a big, new-age movement in 'psychotherapy' to insert boodisty-sounding ideas about 'mindfulness' into the mix. That is, in my opinion, no more Dhamma than are your notions of helping others - and probably no more or no less helpful than any other thing one does and calls it 'psychotherapy.' And try to remember that I am quite clear on the implications of anatta and the moment - on these aspects of the Dhamma - as I say all of this. I'm suggesting that when it comes to 'a need to help' it seems as if these things just go out the window in favour of managing other impressions - just like for that equally spurious activity known as 'meditation.' I'm saying that I think 'Dhamma counselling' is of little use. Scott. #122904 From: "azita" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:20 am Subject: Re: The point of studying gazita2002 Hallo Alex, Lukas and friends It wasnt the running away from worldly life that conditioned the Buddha's or the Arahants enlightenment but the accumulation of wisdom for many lives along with development of the perfections such as metta, karuna etc. There can be running away from worldly life for many reasons, one being dosa for modern life! which is what I think Lukas is talking about here. Until the defilements such as lobha/dosa are eradicated, our study of the dhamma or anything for that matter, will involve many different cetasikas and cittas, they are realities that can eventually be known by panna. Bad feelings are jst bad feelings Lukas. Cold comfort, or as Nina says the bitter medicine. However, until this is accepted as reality then we will always want to get away from unpleasant feeling. Studying the dhamma is possibly beneficial, I say possibly bec somethimes there is study for all the wrong reasons, but hey! they can be known too. Patience, courage and good cheer azita > Dear Lukas, > > >I found myself that I am studing the Teachings due to some kind of >relief. I am listening cause this bring me some kind of calm, taking >me away from daily life problems. Maybe the point of of my studies is >not to understand the Truth, but running away from daily life >problems. > >========================================================= > > If Siddhartha Gotama didn't run away from his palace, wife with a child, responsibilities, etc - we would not have Buddha Gotama. > > Neither would some people become Arahants if they didn't run away from worldly life. > > With best wishes and wishing you all the best, > > Alex > #122905 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > Dear Alex, > Op 29-feb-2012, om 3:09 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > What do you think it means, especially the "now I shall control it > > properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut" part? > ------- >N: We always have to keep in mind that there are now citta, >cetasika >and ruupa, no me or we. >========================================== It is true that we can divide experience in citta/cetasika/and rupa. This sutta is not about this. It is telling us that control in some way is possible. I don't find it convincing to add philosophical explanation why whenever the Buddha or his disciples said "do this, do that", "control/tame the mind" He meant other than what He has said. With best wishes, Alex #122906 From: "colette_aube" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube Hi Scott, "...NOT THE SAME..."? <....> I know how small and unimportant it actually is but there is this little tiny detail called GLOBALIZATION. It deals mainly with a type of UNIFICATION <...>. Globalization is identicle to unifying MIND-BODY-SPIRIT and it works on a human level, more specifically on a PHYSICAL level (RUPA). You chose to acknowledge and to COGNIZE reality by means of RUPA alone when Lukas was speaking of a totally NAMA, noumenal, phenomena. <...> You acknowledge that you have an addiction to the group here. Yes, your addiction is not very dissimilar to the addiction that others have in/with this group. IF this addiction is the way your life generally goes, the way most people's life generally goes, THEN we have a simple CAUSE AND EFFECT relationship to identify and by identifying it THE CURE MAY HELP YOU IN OTHER AREAS OF YOUR LIFE. As Gomer Pyle once said on television, right before your very eyes, "SHAZAAM". Now isn't that cure very similar if not the same as what the Buddha was attempting to manifest through THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS? Thanks for not taking offense to my "automatic fire" that I did not want to restrain and did issue to you. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > colette, > > colette: "...<...> for some people the only actual experience they can have in an environment where they are not PRE-JUDGED is the internet and therefore the internet can be the BEST THERAPY. <....>" > > Scott: I agree with some, but not all, of your points. Thanks. I *have* been ADDICTED to the list. Also, I have my own therapist, with whom I am satisfied. The 'internet' is not the same as any one of it's avatars. <...> #122907 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:22 am Subject: Infinite Pity! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is Release by Infinite Pity Achieved? The Blessed Buddha once said: And how, Bhikkhus, is the mental release by universal pity achieved? What does this liberation have as its destination, what is its culmination, what is its sweet fruit, and what is the goal of release by universal pity? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu dwells pervading the frontal quadrant with a mind imbued with infinite pity, so the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarter. As above, so below, across, and everywhere! To all beings and to himself, he dwells pervading the entire universe with a mind saturated with unlimited pity, immense, exalted, vast, measureless, without hostility, without enmity, without any trace of ill will! Thus prepared & expanded, he then develops: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening joined with this limitless pity. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening fused with such vast pity. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening together with this infinite pity. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening accompanied with this absolute pity. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening linked with this spacious pity. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening associated with this great pity. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening joined with this end & boundless pity. While based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release. If he then wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in the attractive and tempting, then he can dwell experiencing only repulsiveness therein. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in the disgusting & displeasing, then he dwells experiencing delight and beauty in whatever is disgusting! If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive, he dwells experiencing revolting disgust in it. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive, then he experiences only appealing beauty by it! If he wishes: Avoiding both the repulsive and the unrepulsive, may I dwell in equanimity , just aware and clearly comprehending, then he dwells in equanimity , just aware and clearly comprehending. Or else, by completely transcending of all experience of form, fully stilling any perception of any sense-reaction, non attending to any experience of diversity, only aware that space is infinite, he enters and dwells in the subtle mental state associated with the infinitude of space... I tell you Bhikkhus, for a wise Bhikkhu here, who has not yet penetrated to an even more superior mental release, this release of mind by infinite pity has the sublime sphere of the infinitude of space as its culmination! <...> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V: 115-21] 46: The Links. 54: Joined by Friendliness... Infinite Pity! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #122908 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 colette, c: "...You acknowledge that you have an addiction to the group here..." Scott: Yes. c: "Thanks for not taking offense to my "automatic fire" that I did not want to restrain and did issue to you." Scott: No worries. Scott. #122909 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:00 pm Subject: New Buddhist Gallery! bhikkhu5 Friends: This Buddhist Gallery: Dhamma Illustrations has been updated to 5181 images Click images for full size or upper right for slideshow here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/gallery/index.php/Dhamma-illustrations Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #122910 From: "philip" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low philofillet Hi all As with everything, our efforts to help others with Dhamma advice are drenched in lobha, inevitably. Attachment to being a member of a group with people who are ready to say tgey care about you, to the pleasant mental feeling associated with helping others, and more subtly to aspects of what sounds like "right understanding" (e.g understanding that there can be kusala cittas rooted in detachment mixed in with all the lobha.) And Scott is right to ask what makes it different from the religiousity of a Jesus pusher. Maybe the thing that makes it different is that to some small degree panna that knows the Dhamma to be true through moments of satipatthana has been accumulated, to some very small degree. Those rare holes in the dome of lobha, I think they make the Dhamma more than the clung-to feel good comfort blanket that it usually is somehow, but maybe that is religious thinking too. I am writing this so Sarah and Jon know that I am not bitterly brooding because that would not be cool. Always me,me, me. Phil #122911 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 3:48 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance and forgetfulness. An extract from Dhamma talks. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > S: Samma-ditthi and panna are synonyms. If the ditthi is not wrong, it is right (samma). > > L: I think in the kusala moments, there is no ditthi arising, but amoha, panna doesnt neccessery arise with all kusala. ... S: Correct. My point was that if ditthi arises, it is either miccha or samma. When it is samma, it is panna, amoha cetasika. ... >I would like to hear more on dvi- and ti- hetuka kusalacitta. And also on mundane and supramundane paths. ... S: Dvi-hetuka kusala citta, refers to the two roots of alobha and adosa. So this is kusala citta without panna. Ti-hetuka kusala citta, refers to the three roots including amoha. So this is kusala citta with panna. ... > > >S: Hence, even the panna arising with the development of samatha is samma-ditthi, even when there is no understanding of realities being developed. > > L: Does in moments of developing samatha,there is awarness of nama and ruupa, or just non-forgetfulness of what is kusala. ... S: There is no understanding or awareness of namas and rupas, but there is non-forgetfulness of kusala and understanding of the object (concept) and how it brings calm at such moments. For example, when there is wise reflection on death or the development of metta, there is awareness, there is wise reflection with understanding, but not understanding of nama and rupa. So even before the Buddha's time and outside the Buddha's dispensation, there was and can be the development of samatha with right understanding and awareness. We should also appreciate that when there is right understanding of namas and rupas, the development of satipatthana, there is also the development of calm (samatha) at these times too and this is "higher" (adhi) calm and concentration. ... >I think all thoses are different vibhangas, that we need consider more and more. ... S: Can you explain what you mean here by "different vibhangas"? I agree it's helpful to discuss and consider all these points further. Thank you for your reflections. Do you have any quotes from the Dhammasangani or Vibhanga you'd care to share? ... > > S: They are grouped under the understanding part of the path, just as samma-vayama, samma-sati and samma-samadhi are group under the concentration part of the path. It doesn't mean that samma-samadhi is not samadhi:) > > L: Thanks, this is helpful. Just designation name. ... S: I think it's more than a "designation name". For example, the 3 viratis are classified under sila - easy to follow. Samma ditthi and samma sankapa (vitakka cetasika) are classified under understanding. This is because panna needs vitakka to touch and experience the object. Samadhi cannot be purified without viriya and sati. Someone else may have a better explanation. Metta Sarah ======= #122912 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low rjkjp1 Dear Scott hard to see how pyschotherapy could offer anything more than understaning of Dhamma? robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Sarah, > > S: "...Other friends, family, counsellors, therapists might offer friendship, kindness, support, professional guidance and an opportunity to talk - all precious, but only the understanding of dhammas provides any real cure or healing as far as I'm concerned." > > Scott: I have no interest in setting these so-called 'psychotherapy' examples against 'understanding of dhammas.' I've said twice that these are apples and oranges. I think that you are incorrect to be comparing them. In the above, as an aside, you refer to only the supportive aspects of 'psychotherapy' and these are of no lasting effect. In this one sense - inefficacy - I think it fair to place these two statements together. Offering support, whether couched in terms of the Dhamma or with other words, is of use only to the one who makes the offer. > > When you say 'only the understanding of dhammas provides any real cure or healing' you are stating a truism. You are stating a belief, no matter how well-founded, when you 'offer' this to someone else. This, to me, is merely Religion. If Jesus was your thing, you'd be trying to be supportive using Jesus language. What of the need to help? Of what does this consist? > > I think that one ought to be very suspicious of one's compulsion to help. Needing to help and needing to evangelize are most likely about the one with the need, and not about the so-called other. > > S: "...As we know, for many people the Dhamma offers no support, no solace, no meaning at all. I also appreciate that you or others might find other kinds of professional psychoanalysis or counselling of more assistance for your needs..." > > Scott: Again, apples and oranges. You will find that your suggestions or 'Dhamma support' might elicit good feelings in another but this isn't anything lasting or of value *from a Dhamma perspective.* This notion of 'more assistance for your needs' is a missing of the point. When one suggests that the Dhamma is the best medicine, this is obviously metaphorical. It refers to ideas about very distant events and the function of dhammas than arise with understanding. *When* the dhammas one metaphorically refers to as 'medicine' arise *then* there is something to say about them. The mere saying so doesn't magically cause any such dhammas to arise any more than sitting on a cushion does. > > The problem in thinking that the Dhamma *is* literally the best 'psychotherapy' is that the Dhamma is *not* psychotherapy. 'Psychotherapy' that is not a concatenation of mindless support and wanting to make someone feel good - that is, 'real' psychotherapy, not this silly thing being touted above as 'psychotherapy' - happens to function as does the world of ultimate realities, since this is what anything 'real' is founded on. There is no 'making' of things to happen. That conceptual entity known as 'the psyche' is no more to be forced that is pa~n~naa - and I am not equating 'understanding' in psychotherapy with pa~n~naa - apples and oranges. > > Did it ever occur to you that 'real' psychotherapy comes down to conditions, like everything else? And that none of them are one's wish to help, Only remember, these are apples and oranges. I think it's more a matter of religious fervour or outrage to be making the statements you make. It is not as if I'm saying that ordinary psychotherapy is 'better' than the Dhamma. I'm taking you to task for mixing the two in your mind in the first place, and for even thinking that a comparison can be anything more than a mere simile. There is a big, new-age movement in 'psychotherapy' to insert boodisty-sounding ideas about 'mindfulness' into the mix. That is, in my opinion, no more Dhamma than are your notions of helping others - and probably no more or no less helpful than any other thing one does and calls it 'psychotherapy.' > > And try to remember that I am quite clear on the implications of anatta and the moment - on these aspects of the Dhamma - as I say all of this. I'm suggesting that when it comes to 'a need to help' it seems as if these things just go out the window in favour of managing other impressions - just like for that equally spurious activity known as 'meditation.' I'm saying that I think 'Dhamma counselling' is of little use. > > Scott. > #122913 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind sarahprocter... Dear Alex, (Nina & all) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > >A: What do you think it means, especially the "now I shall control it > > > properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut" part? > > ------- > >N: We always have to keep in mind that there are now citta, >cetasika >and ruupa, no me or we. > >========================================== > >A: It is true that we can divide experience in citta/cetasika/and rupa. > This sutta is not about this. It is telling us that control in some way is possible. ... S: The pali for the verse is; "ida.m pure cittamacaari caarika.m, yenicchaka.m yatthakaama.m yathaasukha.m; tadajjaha.m niggahessaai yoniso, hatthippabhinna.m viya a'nkusaggaho" ti. So it's all about the nature of citta and lobha "formerly this mind wandered where it wished where it liked, as it pleased." Hathaarohaputta is now an arahant, so when he says "now I shall control it properly" it is referring to how yoniso manasikara, right understanding and all that is pure developed, rather than citta running after objects of lobha. In the commentary (below) it relates how he realised it's better to train the mind (citta) than elephants and that after he went to the Buddha, became a bhikkhu that he developed vipassana (insight) so that his mind (the cittas) no longer pursued the objects of attachment and he became an arahat. I can't translate it, but note the references to citta, yoniso manasikara, rupa, vipassana He understood there were just conditioned dhammas, just namas and rupas - it depends on whether there are conditions for yoniso manasikara, wise attention or not at this very moment. 77. Tattha idanti vuccamaanassa cittassa attapaccakkhataaya vutta.m. Pureti niggahakaalato pubbe. Acaariiti vicari, anava.t.thitataaya naanaaramma.nesu paribbhami . Caarikanti yathaakaamacariya.m. Tenaaha ``yenicchaka.m yatthakaama.m yathaasukha``nti. Tanti ta.m citta.m. Ajjaati etarahi. Niggahessaamiiti nigga.nhissaami, nibbisevana.m karissaami. Yonisoti upaayena. Yathaa ki.m? Hatthippabhinna.m viya a"nkusaggaho. Ida.m vutta.m hoti – ida.m mama citta.m naama ito pubbe ruupaadiisu aaramma.nesu yena yena ramitu.m icchati, tassa tassa vasena yenicchaka.m, yattha yattha cassa kaamo, tassa tassa vasena yatthakaama.m, yathaa yathaa vicarantassa sukha.m hoti, tatheva cara.nato yathaasukha.m diigharatta.m caarika.m acari, ta.m ajjapaaha.m bhinnamadamattahatthi.m hatthaacariyasa"nkhaato cheko a"nkusaggaho a"nkusena viya yonisomanasikaarena niggahessaami, naassa viitikkamitu.m dassaamiiti. Eva.m vadanto eva ca thero vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa arahatta.m sacchaakaasi. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. thera 1.13.91-96) – .... Metta Sarah ====== #122914 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thank you for sharing your other reflections. Just briefly on a couple of questions you raised. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > What of the need to help? Of what does this consist? ... Sarah: If there is a "need" with attachment, it would be attachment. Again, it is only panna that can know whether the citta arising now is one rooted in attachment or non-attachment. At moments of kindness, there is no "need" and no expectation either of any result. When we see the harm of akusala more when it arises and the benefit of kusala - such as at moments of kindness or understanding, this will lead to more kusala and less akusala in a day. ... > Did it ever occur to you that 'real' psychotherapy comes down to conditions, like everything else? .... Sarah: Just dhammas which 'come down to conditions', no matter what they're called. I don't think there's been any disagreement about this. Metta Sarah ==== #122915 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 5:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I am writing this so Sarah and Jon know that I am not bitterly brooding because that would not be cool. Always me,me, me. ... S: :-)) Never occurred to us - I thought you were busily working on your book or translation projects! Metta Sarah ==== #122916 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 5:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (& Alex), Just to say, I thought this was good: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >It is my opinion that if one doesn't accept anatta as the central truth of reality, then one does not really understand the Buddha's message. > > When Buddha says that he will not state "there is no self" he did not say he was refraining from this because there *is* a self, but because he did not want to say something that would tend to verify the annihilationist view *to the annihilationists* who were involved in the discussion. He may very well have been saying that they would take it the wrong way. He also said that he will not say that there *is* a self because that would tend to feed the beliefs of the eternalists. So what I get out of that is that it is a tricky subject no matter what you say, and so he didn't want to feed deluded views by making a definitive statement. The statement has to be made more clear through detailed analysis, and the detailed analysis is where he says that every single khanda is not one's self or a part of self, and that they are all anatta, every single one. Again, I ask you what is left over if all the khandas are anatta. Is there anything else that is not within the khandas? .... You're at your best when you write to Alex - So appreciate both of your contributions:-) Metta Sarah ===== #122917 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 5:47 pm Subject: Re: Those who faced Death with calm and equanimity sarahprocter... Dear Han, I greatly appreciated your presentation of the Uraga Jataka #122601. It seems that many of us find this Jataka very touching. I was glad that you also kindly went to the trouble to add the Pali verses - I'm sure we'll reflect on it often. Also: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Han: This story is also the background story for Dhammapada Verse 212. > > 212. Piyato jaayatii soko, > piyato jaayatii bhaya.m, > Piyato vippamuttassa > natthi soko kuto bhaya.m. > > 212. Affection begets sorrow, > affection begets fear. > For him who is free from affection > there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him? > (translated by Daw Mya Tin) .... S: Thank you for sharing this verse and putting it in context of the background story too. ... > Han: Yes, if only I can be free from affection there will be no sorrow. But it is very difficult for me to do so. In Myanmar we usually call affection as "san-yo-zin" (from Paa.li word Sa.myojana). We have a song that says that although it has just three little words, it is very strong and it is very difficult for a puthujjana to cut it. > > That is why "piyehi vippayogo dukkho" (separation from those we love is suffering) is included in Dukkha Saccaa. ... S: At least we hear and consider and reflect on the Truth, so even though there is bound to be a lot of sorrow and fear in life, we can appreciate what the real cause is. Thank you again for your helpful contributions, Han. Metta Sarah ===== #122918 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > a wonderful quotation indeed , which refers to the path training sila, samadhi, panna > > "But there is one who studies the Buddha's word, and when > morality is the subject, he fulfills morality; when concentration > is the subject, he lets it take deep root; when insight is the > subject, he establishes himself well in insight;" > > reference to the supramundane path :' when the paths and > fruitions are the subject, he studies with the intention,..." > > Is there any doubt that this training doesn't mean action ? Studying and and fulfilling... (= practise) .... S: It depends what we mean by "action". The studying, fulfilling and practise must refer to the development of panna and associated eightfold path factors. No self or actor involved. Metta Sarah > Thank you very much, wonderful. I enjoyed this very much. I do not > have this Wheel publication. > Nina. > Op 11-feb-2012, om 12:04 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > > "Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the > > Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose > > of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, > > these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching > > only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. > > "(2) But there is one who studies the Buddha's word, and when > > morality is the subject, he fulfills morality; when concentration > > is the subject, he lets it take deep root; when insight is the > > subject, he establishes himself well in insight; when the paths and > > fruitions are the subject, he studies with the intention, "I shall > > develop the path, I shall realize the fruition." Only the studying > > of such a one is "studying for the sake of crossing over". ======= #122919 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance and forgetfulness. An extract from Dhamma talks. szmicio Dear Sarah, > >I think all thoses are different vibhangas, that we need consider more and more. > ... > S: Can you explain what you mean here by "different vibhangas"? I agree it's helpful to discuss and consider all these points further. L: I dont know if I remember correctly, but the theravada is based or called sometimes vibhajana. And I think the point of this is the developement by reading and listening as a main stream of developement. Also Buddha himself make a lot of different classification of realities so that we can understand more and more. That's why I told this all are different vibhangas. Sometimes something can mean this and also can mean something different, and this is all to develop more and more panna. In Vibhanga this classification are clearly taught. There is classification by Suttas, by Abhidhamma and by inquiries. When we read first chapter on analysis of khandha, we can see how the feelings are classified comprehensively by way of eight instances. For example what is distant feeling. And there are many lines, of pleasant and unpleasant feeling, and indifferent how there are in different modes to each other. This is all to condition more and more panna. We think usually with a Self, to make a practice or develop more understanding with the Self. But this is ony reading studying considering. Even a line from Vibhanga can condition a right understanding, just bacause the Dhamma had been read. Not because of a Self that try to accquire more of panna. So I think reading, listening, studying Dhamma and leaving the rest to conditions. Applying the ear I think conditions a panna itself, this is from Path of discrimination, I think. > S: I think it's more than a "designation name". For example, the 3 viratis are classified under sila - easy to follow. Samma ditthi and samma sankapa (vitakka cetasika) are classified under understanding. This is because panna needs vitakka to touch and experience the object. Samadhi cannot be purified without viriya and sati. Someone else may have a better explanation. L: That was said about right effort, right awareness, right concentration in Dispeller of Delusion, commentary to Vibhanga, that those three are like a close friends, helping each other to acquire common goal. All three are like a three friends, that going into some kind of celebration, saw an apple tree. And wanting to pick up an apple from a branch, they couldnt get it on their own separately. Then they started to help each other, to get this apple. One friend, bend down giving his back as a strong support to stand on him so that another friend could get an apple. But the second friend stand on his back, but still he was not stable to stand on his own, he was bending in sides, then the third friend came and give him his shoulder as a support, so that he was not shaking anymore and could get an apple. In this simile, The frist friend was samma-vayamo, right effort, that gives his back as as strong foundation to the other. The second friend was samma-sati, that came on his back and try to get an apple, to touch and get it. And the 3rd friend was samma-samadhi, right concentration, that gives him a support to not trumble, from its object. So samadhi, are like the three friends, that accomplish the same function, function of samadhi. They must always be 3 to acquire the goal. Best wishes Lukas #122920 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 6:13 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: Let's be clear that there is only ever "now". So now, either >there is "meditation", i.e the arising of pa~n~naa, or there isn't. > >================================================= > >A: You are setting up a false dichotomy. Why not develop wisdom NOW and as one "does" it NOW, one also tries to set up better causes for future development of wisdom and meditation (go to meditation retreat, set aside quite time at home to meditate, etc). .... S: Whilst thinking about "better causes", "go to meditation retreat, set aside quite time at home to meditate, etc", there is no understanding of present dhammas. ... > One does NOT reject the other. .... S: Whilst lost in stories about the future, about future awareness, there's no awareness now. ... > >However, what about the attachment to those times of being alone, >not being disturbed, not having to associate with others? > >=============================================== > > It is far better to be attached to Jhana (rupavacara) than to be attached to kama (kamavacara). ... S: Attachment is attachment. The real danger is in the wrong view. As we know, a large number of the wrong views contained within the Brahmajala Sutta (Net of Views) are associated with attachment and wrong view concerning jhana attainments. It's dangerous if one thinks it's the path because there's no detachment, no understanding of conditioned dhammas. ... > Attachment for us is inevitable most of the time, so it is better to be attached to less blameworthy things, and especially to kusala things. The path is gradual. > > It can occur that ADVANCED practicioner is not distracted inwardly by external worldly events. I am not there yet, and I believe that not everybody is that highly developed. ... S: The answer is not to try and avoid "external worldly events", i.e. thinking about various concepts, but to develop understanding no matter how one's life is conditioned from moment to moment. Only namas and rupas regardless of the circumstances. The more understanding there is that there really are just namas and rupas, the less on thinks in terms of 'circumstances' and 'practice'. Life is much simpler and less complicated then, not tiring with worry and concerns about better time and place. ... > > S: The reality of lobha (or any other akusala dhamma) can only be > >known directly when it appears, when it arises. > >================================ > > Can sati arise in the SAME citta as lobha? No. Sati takes memory of past defilement. In my case, I don't need to deliberately produce defilements to "know it". I have plenty of past defilements that I can observe, and observation happens better when I am not distracted by outward worldly things. .... S: What you are referring to as memory here is thinking about past defilements. This is quite different from being directly aware of the characteristic of lobha when it appears. It makes no difference whether the visible object or lobha appears to the immediately succeeding cittas. It is still the present characteristic that appears. ... > > Same with meditation. One goes into seclusion, suppresses the hindrances, and with clear and bright mind know directly PAST instances (of which we have plenty) of defilements and study like that. ... S: Again, this is thinking about past instances, trying to be aware of them. It's not the development of satipatthana. ... > > In my experience, trying to "study" defilements when one has not sufficiently suppressed the defilements is simply "talk" or "thinking". It is good to start with, to learn what to do and what to look out for, but it is NOT enough. Not for neyya individuals. ... S: This is why we need to hear and consider a lot. The teachings are really very subtle. Alex, have you tried listening to some of the recordings we've uploaded? For example, would you try listening to some of the most recent one (at the end) with Phil and other friends from Kaeng Krachan 2011? I'd be interested to hear your feedback. Please listen to at least one or two tracks first, if possible. Metta Sarah ===== #122921 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Dear Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: The original akusala kamma patha involved in the murderous intentions and acts will bring its result by way or vipaka - an unhappy rebirth and akusala vipaka in future life/lives. I agree that when reading the texts, there often seems to be a 'link'. In the future lives, there may be the akusala vipaka through the body-sense and so on when attacked/murdered which seems to correspond to the original deed. In fact, the death consciousness, the cuti citta, can only be a result of the person's own deed - the same akusala kamma patha that conditioned the unhappy rebirth in that future life. > > .... > >R: I guess it makes sense that a certain kind of of akusala kamma patha would naturally lead to a related-seeming vipaka that is "like in kind" as the type of akusala cetana that was originally generated. It's sort of like putting out certain sorts of forces and then they will shape the resultant vipaka in a similar way. ... S: Yes, seems like that - lots of 'conventional' stories about this kind of thing, like the story of Soreyya I gave recently*. In fact, only a Buddha can understand the intricacies of kamma and vipaka, so not much point in speculating too much about this. What we know is that the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching of pleasant and unpleasant objects now is the result of past kamma and have confidence that it is the kusala/akusala in 'reaction' to such experiences that perpetuates the cycle. Hence we read about the 3 rounds of vipaka vata, kilesa vata and kamma vata. Metta Sarah *Soreyya. A setthiputta of Soreyya. Once, when he and a friend with a large retinue were driving out of the city to bathe, he saw Mahaa Kaccaayanaadjusting his robe before entering the city for alms. Soreyya saw the Elder's body, and wished that he could make him his wife or that his wife's body might become in colour like the Elder's. Immediately Soreyya turned into a woman, and, hiding from his companions, went with a caravan bound for Takkasilaa. Arrived at Takkasilaa, he became the wife of the Treasurer of that city and had two sons. He had already two sons in Soreyya, born to him before his transformation. Some time after, he saw his former friend driving in a carriage through Takkasilaa, and, sending a slave woman to him, invited him to the house and entertained him. The friend was unable to recognize him till he revealed the truth. Thereupon they both returned to Soreyya and invited Mahaa Kaccaayana to a meal. Soreyya fell at his feet, confessed his fault, and asked for forgiveness. When the Elder pardoned him, he once more became a man. He entered the Order under the Elder and went with him to Saavatthi. There people having heard his story worried him with questions. He therefore retired into solitude, and, developing insight, became an arahant. Before that, when people asked him which of his children he loved best, he would say: "Those to whom I gave birth while a woman"; but after attaining arahantship he would say: "My affections are set on no one." DhA.i.324ff. **** #122922 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 7:35 pm Subject: discussion from DCG group. rjkjp1 I saw this on Dhammachallengedgroup Acronyms: Official DhammaChallengedGroup line [ODCGL]: Intellectually challenged member[ICM] [ODCGL]:Why do you want to study details of Abhidhamma. it is just book learning! [ICM] I wanted to see what it says. [ODCGL]:Just be aware of the present moment [ICM]I don't see why someone would hold their arm in the air for 20 years. It looks like wrong view. [ODCGL]:It just shows you don't understand , Awareness can arise anytime. [ICM]Ok when someone says they don't believe in spontaneous beings and rebirth in deva worlds etc, I thought that was a sign of wrong view. [ODCGL]: That shows right view. They don't believe in beings. [ICM]Ok but can't we speak conventionally. [ODCGL]:With metta, We can, you can't. [ICM]Ok I think there is only nama and rupa,no beings. [ODCGL]:It depends on whether there is panna present when you can say that.[ In your case there is no panna, so it is wrong.]with metta. [ICM]Sometimes it looks like people who listen to a guru on a video tell them to focus on a point on the top of their head are having silabataparamasa [ODCGL]: that is what vipassana is…. If there is panna. [ICM]But if someone writes that they can make sati arise by concentrating it looks like wrong view. [ODCGL]: Words can never indicate wrong view or rightview. ………….Although they can help us learn boolean algelbra . [ICM]Ok I think I understand now. [ODCGL]:with all due metta, We understand you don't! [ICM]that seems condescending . [ODCGL]:That is because you don't understand Dhamma, in fact the cittas that wrote that were full of metta and wisdom. But there is always hope for you in future lives. [ICM]I thought talking about future lives showed wrong view? [ODCGL]: that is when you say it. When we say it, we are talking conventionally about the stream of khandhas arising and passing [ICM]Oh good, I would like to talk about the stream of khandas. [ODCGL]:You believe in a self. [ICM] I was just saying that.. [ODCGL]:Don't talk about streams of cittas or khandhas, it's self view. ===================== [ICM]I would like to discuss some points on akasa (space) [ODCGL]:why not just be aware? [ICM]Ok anyway in this post about akasa one of elders writes that .. [ODCGL]:That is just book knowledge, why not be aware now.. [ICM]Why was it written then? [ODCGL]: you wouldn't get it. ============================================ [ICM]about the man who holds his hand in the air, he was talking about flux.. [ODCGL]: YOU SEE, it shows his deep understanding .. [ICM]But he was talking about the flux in his body, as in dysentery. [ODCGL]:Words can never indicate right or wrong view [ICM]If I say "be aware now" or "be aware of the present moment" that is ok though? [ODCGL]:Yes. All discussions on dcg are about this. [ICM]Umm one more question.. [ODCGL]:You again? [ICM]Umm if I say 'be aware of the present moment' does it show that panna is present? [ODCGL]:Yes! [ICM]Ok thanks. I thought right view and wrong view can't be known from words or discussion? [ODCGL]:That is right: Concepts and realities are completely different, never the twain shall meet. Anyway if you stick to looking up things in the commentaries and quoting them that is fine. Just don't make any typos. [ICM]But I thought that comes under "scholarly discussions", not relevant to the present moment. [ODCGL]:Yes, but its probably all you are capable of.. With all metta #122923 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Those who faced Death with calm and equanimity hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, I am glad to know that you like my post. I am now trying my family to be as near as possible to the Brahmin and his family in the Uraga Jaataka. If I die first, there are two important things my wife must do, i.e., (i) to get her widow pension, and (ii) to continue to participate in Staff Health Insurance. I have prepared the checklist, and I am explaining to my wife and my daughter what they will have to do, step by step. I also ask my daughter to stay close to me when I go to the hospital to give her a practical training on how to talk to the doctor, how to get the medical certificate and how to get the out-patient statement (details to be attached to the receipt voucher), and how to prepare each receipt voucher with the supporting documents so that they will be accepted by the Staff Health Insurance. I am very happy that my wife and daughter are listening and noting carefully whatever I said, without showing any emotion in their faces. In some families, the talk of death is taboo and even regarded as bad omen. But my family has accepted it calmly. For that, I am very happy. with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 3/1/12, sarah wrote: I greatly appreciated your presentation of the Uraga Jataka #122601. It seems that many of us find this Jataka very touching. I was glad that you also kindly went to the trouble to add the Pali verses - I'm sure we'll reflect on it often. Also: S: Thank you for sharing this verse and putting it in context of the background story too. S: At least we hear and consider and reflect on the Truth, so even though there is bound to be a lot of sorrow and fear in life, we can appreciate what the real cause is. Thank you again for your helpful contributions, Han. Metta Sarah ===== #122924 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:05 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Dear Rob K (& Scott) I don't think there's been any disagreement on any of the points below with the exception of part of no 6 - "it is incidental whether kusala or awareness of the present moment arises". I think Scott has already given his comments. I apologise for any misunderstandings. Btw, I came across a note of Roxanne's (your daughter's) topics that I was going to help her raise for discussion in Kaeng Krachan before we realised you'd be leaving before the afternoon session. Perhaps I'll type them out tomorrow with a few comments for her. I was really pleased to see her again. Please tell her that my niece did visit Thailand and I gave her both your contact numbers, but unfortunately she only stayed a day in Bangkok before travelling round the islands with some friends. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > If i can butt in: > I thinkmwhat Scott is trying to get agreement on is > 1. There are right views and wrong views. > 2. Each type of view is often expressed on dsg. > 3. Saying a wrong view is wrong is not an inherently bad thing to do. > 4 of course he knows that while correcting a wrong view there might be akusala cittas arising, such as dosa. > 5 however someone could write a very polite, loving sounding post, also correcting a wrong view, but stil have akusala. > 6 the point, as he sees it, of writing on dsg is not for the writer to try to have kusala cittas. It is to discuss Dhamma, and it is incidental wheter kusala or awareness of the present moment arises. This is because, in his estimation, the arising of any type of citta depends on complex conditions, not under ones control. > 7 hence while it is may be ideal if at all times kusala could arise this is unlikely, at least in his case to occur. But he still wants to write. > 8 it is however agreed that when running a forum it is nice if everyone is polite and respectful and helpful and so on. As long One doesnt think excellent manners are a sure sign of kusala. > > If i got it all wrong perhpas you and Scott can correct me. #122925 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Those who faced Death with calm and equanimity sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > I am glad to know that you like my post. > > I am now trying my family to be as near as possible to the Brahmin and his family in the Uraga Jaataka. .... S: I think that's very considerate. Of course, we never know the outcome, but it is helpful to consider, even now when we have ups and downs in life and are susceptible to worldly conditions. I wonder if you've read the Jataka with your grandson or any other family members? You've made many practical arrangements out of consideration for your family. I appreciate this. ... > I am very happy that my wife and daughter are listening and noting carefully whatever I said, without showing any emotion in their faces. In some families, the talk of death is taboo and even regarded as bad omen. But my family has accepted it calmly. For that, I am very happy. .... S: I'm sure you've taught them a lot through your confidence in the Dhamma. You'd better tell them about DSG too (or give my email address) so that we know next time if you're in hospital or have any emergency. Of course, our emotions are all conditioned from moment to moment, but wise reflection now, understanding of the Teachings is the best training. If we don't pass the small tests in life, how can we pass the big tests when time comes? Thank you again for sharing your family preparations and reflections. Metta Sarah ===== #122926 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Those who faced Death with calm and equanimity hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Sarah: You'd better tell them about DSG too (or give my email address) so that we know next time if you're in hospital or have any emergency. Han: I will do that. For that, I rely on my grand-daughter (whom you had talked on the phone once) who is at the moment in USA. with metta and respect, Han #122927 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: Re: discussion from DCG group. jonoabb Hi RobK (122922) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > I saw this on Dhammachallengedgroup > Acronyms: > Official DhammaChallengedGroup line [ODCGL]: > Intellectually challenged member[ICM] > ... > [ICM] I don't see why someone would hold their arm in the air for 20 years. It looks like wrong view. > > [ODCGL]:It just shows you don't understand , Awareness can arise anytime. > =============== J: There seems to be a trend on the list lately to discuss manifestations of right or wrong view, rather than discussing the underlying dhamma issue itself. As an example of what I mean, nobody would disagree with the proposition that to hold one's arm in the air with the idea that one was thereby developing the path ("Proposition A") would be wrong view. However, when it comes to the proposition that a person who has been holding his arm in the air for the past X years, must be having wrong view ("Proposition B"), that is quite a different matter. It is no longer a matter of the underlying Dhamma issue (Proposition A) as such, but of having to make assumptions and consider various possibilities. As just one example, while the person in Proposition B was no doubt motivated by wrong view in the first place, it's difficult to speak with much confidence about his views at the present time, given that he presumably would no longer be capable of lowering his arm even if he had seen the error of his ways and wanted to! So perhaps ICM's frustration stems in part from a failure to appreciate this distinction. Rob, I have noticed quite a few threads on the list lately, some involving you, where the discussion has been at cross purposes for somewhat similar reasons. I urge you to have another look at your recent exchanges with these comments in mind. Hoping you will continue to participate on the list. Jon #122928 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low rjkjp1 dear scott You might like this piece: seems to have some interesting points: http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/ "The Elixir of Mindfulness" "The mighty "Mindfulness" juggernaut continues to roll joyously throughout the wounded world of late-capitalism. And why shouldn't it? The Mindfulness Industry is claiming territory once held by the great occupying force of assorted self-help gurus, shrinks, health care workers, hypnotists, preachers, Theosophists, the church, the synagogue, actual gurus, yogis, meditation teachers, and even—gasp!— Buddhists themselves. Who, after all, can compete with an industry that claims to offer a veritable fountain of bounty, an elixir to life's ills?" "By re-packaging age-old optimisms, the Mindfulness Industry feeds off of the multi-billion dollar addiction of the desiccated twenty-first century middle classes for anything that will lead them to the promised land of `well-being.'" robert #122929 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low rjkjp1 Dear Scott, some more from Glenn Wallis REader: I think there's a big difference between trying to get rid of your emotions/thoughts etc. or to learn to be aware of them when they come up. If you're just aware of an emotion (being anger for example) and seeing the thoughts that come up with that emotion (I'll kill that fucker) you might act in a better way for yourself and others than if you're not aware of what's going on and just slap that guy in his face. I hope you agree with me here. GW:I do agree—for a while, and then not. What I mean is that I would want to live in a world where impulsive meanies develop enough self-awareness to recognize that they're really pissed and on the verge of doing something nasty. But I also want to live in a world where people act spontaneously, perhaps even recklessly. So, how can these two modes be balanced? Reader: For me it doesn't mean at all that you become less critic or less active than if you're not aware of what's happening. In my case I'm more angry in lots of ways than before but just being a ball of hate in my experience usually doesn't help too much to actually improve things… Anyway, what makes me wonder a bit here are part of your thoughts about the "mindfulness business". …But why for example are you are so critical of Kabat Zinn? If you could let me know in more detail what the issue here is for you that might "enlighten" me a bit. GW(for rest of post): (When you get a chance, maybe you can look at "Elixer of Mindfulness" post and the discussion there.) I guess one concern of mine is that the Mindfulness Industry is in the business—largely covertly, but somewhat overtly—of defining and prescribing values. That's bad enough. Those values, furthermore, are suspiciously conducive to a state of affairs that preserves our sickly status quo. I applaud much of Jon Kabot Zinn's project. For instance, who could criticize a program that enables people to deal more effectively with chronic pain? (We can ask questions about whether MBSR really does accomplish, in any significant way, what it claims for itself; but that's a different matter.) I also think it's useful to reformulate Buddhist teachings in contemporary, secular terms, as MBSR does. But I think that "mindfulness" has become something like "mana" for the twenty-first century, and Kabot-Zinn something like a latter-day Dale Carnegie. Whenever Kabot-Zinn prescribes some action or value, it sounds, to my ears, to be some combination of platitudinous, vacuous, and delusional. Add some quasi-science and crypto-religion/mysticism, and you can peg virtually ever sentence that has flown from Kabot-Zinn's pen. Take the example you provide: "Mindfulness can be thought of as moment-to-moment, non-judgmental awareness, cultivated by paying attention in a specific way, that is, in the present moment, and as non-reactively, as non-judgmentally, and as openheartedly as possible (p. 108)." Mindfulness: vacuous, quasi-science, crypto-mysticism moment-to-moment, non-judgmental awareness: delusional (see Tom's comment #43 and my comment for some discussion; please also see Matthias Steingass's piece "Meditation and Control"), crypto-mysticism paying attention in a specific way: quasi-science non-reactively, as non-judgmentally, and as openheartedly: delusional, vacuous etc., etc. Now Kabat Zinn's main focus is that he does teach meditation to people who're in trouble. People who are sick in some way or have other serious issues. And again I see nothing wrong in that. I agree. But he then moves from clinician to guru with his endless stream of pronouncements such as: "If we learn how to inhabit now more—with awareness-—then it's almost as if the universe becomes your teacher. Because there's no boundary to this, there's no boundary to awareness." Apply my heuristic from above to this statement, and see what it yields. This sort of vacuous, grandiose faux-religiosity has nothing whatsoever to do with Kabot-Zinn's clinical expertise. I completely agree with you that it is a wonderful thing to help people in pain to develop the means to live more fully. Let Kabot-Zinn stick to that. But he doesn't. Why not? Wouldn't the clinical applications be enough to establish a "mindfulness" industry? Why, then, the spiritualization of mindfulness? Can we consider the possibility that Kabot-Zinn stands, like the Wizard of Oz, behind a curtain of experimental science, while pulling the magic levers and blowing smoke to soothe the yearnings of our perpetually pained middle classes? So, you and I are in agreement with a good deal here. I just see problems with the over-extension of clinical claims (claims, by the way, that do not seem nearly as well-documented as the Mindfulness acolytes would have us believe) and the spiritualization of what amount to, at best, pale wellness platitudes."""" endquote robert #122930 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 2:16 am Subject: Cetasika in daily life -project Dosa 1 moellerdieter Hi all, following a short overview of dosa. Acc. to Abhidhammattha Sangaha first of the 4 cetasikas of the Hatred Group (Dosa catukka). It is stated that dosa , issa (envy) and macchariya (avarice)cannot arise in lobha conssciousness, because they are akin to aversion and only found in hateful consciousness. I like to draw your attention to 3 extensive treatments ( see links below 'Cetasikas and Abhidhamma in Daily Life . Test your understanding by answering the questions , which Nina , the author , will certainly comment ) with Metta Dieter Briefly defined by Ven. Nyanatiloka's Buddhists Dictionary: 'dosa: 'hatred', anger, is one of the 3 unwholesome, roots (mÅ«la, q.v.). - d. citta: hate consciousness; dosa-carita: 'angry-or hate-natured'; s. carita' appearances of dosa in Suttapitaka sources : DN 25 x, MN 95x, SN 78x , A.N.202x, KN 309x (acc. DigitalPali Reader) Dosa1 [Sk. doá¹£a to an Idg. *deu(s) to want, to be inferior etc. (cp. dussati ), as in Gr. de/omai, deu/omai] corruption blemish, fault, bad condition, defect; depravity, corrupted state; usually -- Ëš, as khetta Ëš blight of the field Miln 360; tiṇa Ëš spoilt by weeds Dh 356; PvA 7; visa ill effect of poison Th 1, 758, 768; sneha Ëš blemish of sensual affection Sn 66. Four kasiṇa -- dosÄ at Vism 123; eighteen making a VihÄra unsuitable at Vism 118 sq. -- J ii.417; iii.104; Miln 330 (sabba -- d. -- virahita faultless); DA i.37, 141. -- pl. dosÄ the (three) morbid affections, or disorder of the (3) humours Miln 43; adj with disturbed humours Miln 172, cp. DA i.133. Dosa has destructive nature. It is very ugly. It hurts anyone anything. Dosa destroys its home and its environment. In the presence of dosa everything wicked and unhumanly things can be committed. Dosa cetasika is the head of all dosa related cetasikas and dosa cittas. When there is issa, there also arises dosa and this is also true in case of macchariya or in case of kukkucca. Added: 08.Jun.2009 | Source: Journey to Nibbana: Patthana Dham The word hate is a translation of a much broader Buddhist term. Whereas in English hate refers exclusively to passionate anger, in Buddhism the term spans the entire range from slight annoyance to enduring resentment to violent wrath. Counterintuitively, it includes fear. In fear we kill, not out of bravery. Hate is an all-around terrible thing to cultivate. source : wisdom Quarterly　 Chapter 6 - The Characteristic Of Dosa http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/abhidhamma-in-daily-life/d/doc2711.html When we are angry with other people we harm ourselves by our anger. The Buddha pointed out the adverse effects of anger (dosa). We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sevens, Ch.VI, par. 10, Anger) about the ills a rival wishes his rival to have and which are actually the ills coming upon an angry woman or man. The sutta states...snip Questions Why is lobha a condition for dosa? Lying, slandering and frivolous talk are akusala kamma-patha through speech which can be performed either with lobha-mula-citta or with dosa-mula-citta. When are they performed with dosa-mula-citta? Is there akusala kamma-patha through the mind performed with dosa-mula-citta? Factor 8 - Dosa http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/abhidhamma-in-daily-life_2/d/doc3105.html Hatred Anger or violence of mind is called dosa (hatred). Dosa is not only violent but it also soils the mind. It is not only wild and rude, but also depressive resulting in inferiority complex and living in fear; they all belong to the category of dosa or hatred (ill will)...snip 　 Chapter 18 - Aversion http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/cetasikas/d/doc2869.html Dosa Dosa, aversion, is another akusala cetasika. When the citta dislikes the object it experiences there is dosa, aversion. When there is dosa, the feeling which accompanies the citta is always unpleasant feeling. We do not like to feel unhappy and we want to suppress our unpleasant feeling. However, dosa-mula-citta arises when there are conditions for its arising. We may try to suppress unpleasant feeling because we cling to pleasant feeling; we are ignorant of the real cause of unpleasant feeling and of the disadvantages of akusala..snip Questions Is the suppression of unpleasant feeling always done with kusala citta? What are the proximate causes for dosa? When there are unpleasant "worldly conditions" we are likely to have dosa. How can right understanding of kamma and vipaka help us to have kusala citta instead of dosa? Why is there no dosa in the rupa-brahma planes and in the arupa-brahma planes? Why can dosa not be eradicated without developing right understanding of nama and rupa? Why can it not be eradicated by just developing loving kindness? When we suffer from sickness and when we are about to die what is the most beneficial thing that can be done in order not to be overcome by dosa? What should be done if dosa arises in such circumstances? June 26, 2001 　 #122931 From: "Jose Maria" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 1:47 am Subject: Hello sisabianovenia I´m a new member. From Argentina, Buenos Aires city. I found this group searching for imformation on Abhidhamma. I found Zolag books, Nina van Gorkon, and Sujin Borihamwanaket and it was a very strong impact. I begin reading on Buddhism many years ago. Mahayana sutras because a chinese friend teach me. And then I go backwards. To Theravada. Access to Insight, etc. And then Abhidhamma, and then Nina van Gorkon and Sujin... something like that. My English is very limited: I can read, can understand little in conversations, speak and write even less more. So... Don´t spect to see my posts here. I am one who only read and mumble... Sorry! It seems I only take and not give anything, but, first the Language limitation, second and more relevant: I don´t have much to apport, I'm very limited in pañña. Thank you very much for your share. You all change my insight on Buddhism a lot and make my feel I found 'home' at last. Thats it. Thanks again Jose #122932 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Rob K., Thanks... "...This sort of vacuous, grandiose faux-religiosity has nothing whatsoever to do with Kabot-Zinn's clinical expertise. I completely agree with you that it is a wonderful thing to help people in pain to develop the means to live more fully. Let Kabot-Zinn stick to that. But he doesn't. Why not? Wouldn't the clinical applications be enough to establish a 'mindfulness' industry? Why, then, the spiritualization of mindfulness?..." Scott: Yes. I'd even throw out the over-burdened term 'spiritualization' in favour of the neologism 'religionization.' And these mirror the points I was making to Sarah in relation to my take on DSG as 'counselling centre.' And how I think such a thing is far from desirable. I think there is 'Dhamma' to be discussed on this matter. Scott. #122933 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 4:41 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Dear Rob. K., R: "hard to see how psychotherapy could offer anything more than understanding of Dhamma?" Scott: I don't follow. I'm like 'psychotherapy is just psychotherapy - not Dhamma, and why bother mixing them?' I didn't think psychotherapy could offer understanding of the Dhamma. Scott. #122934 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Dear Rob K., R: "You might like this piece: seems to have some interesting points: http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/ "The Elixir of Mindfulness" Scott: Yeah. Most interesting. This sort of thing is rolling in my own city. Colleagues are on the bandwagon, creating 'institutes' and organizing seminars, and applying this to 'treatment' in a rather mindless fashion. You can tell who they are because they have the 'mindfulness face' on and say things like 'teachings' when referring to what they tell people. Scott. #122935 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sarah: "Just dhammas which 'come down to conditions', no matter what they're called. I don't think there's been any disagreement about this." Scott: No, true. I did make a few other points, however. It seems difficult to get some actual discussion going here - discussion that goes beyond repeating what we both agree to. Were there no ideas within what I wrote that could be pursued? I can think of: Dhamma versus counselling; the Dhamma involved in 'trying to help'; Dhamma homogenization - to suggest a few. Scott. #122936 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 6:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Just to say, I thought this was good: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >It is my opinion that if one doesn't accept anatta as the central truth of reality, then one does not really understand the Buddha's message. ... > .... > You're at your best when you write to Alex - So appreciate both of your contributions:-) Thanks Sarah! It is helpful to me to have your verification on this way of seeing anatta. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #122937 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, When the sutta says: ========================================================= "now I shall control it properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut" ========================================================== To me it means what it says. To influence and force the mind for the better. I can't believe that it is supposed to be interpreted to mean the opposite of what it says. With best wishes, Alex #122938 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 7:41 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: Whilst thinking about "better causes", "go to meditation retreat, >set aside quite time at home to meditate, etc", there is no >understanding of present dhammas. >========================================== Why not? You seem to be making non-issues. Due to sufficient understanding of "present dhammas" there is more and more samvega which motivates on to really develop the path. It is not simply "starting earlier" but starting correctly and moving quicker in the right direction. Lets say two people want to see how can reach place which is 100km away quicker. One can start running right away and not waste time (NOW!). Another can go find a ride and get there much quicker. Sure the 2nd person started later, but he won because he got a quicker "vehicle". Same is here. Besides, while one is going to meditation retreat one can still have the SAME awareness (no matter where) that you talk about. So time is not lost. With best wishes, Alex #122939 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 8:43 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: >...What we know is that the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching of pleasant and unpleasant objects now is the result of past kamma and have confidence that it is the kusala/akusala in 'reaction' to such experiences that perpetuates the cycle. Hence we read about the 3 rounds of vipaka vata, kilesa vata and kamma vata. Good to have this repeated clarification. It is helpful. > *Soreyya. ... Immediately Soreyya turned into a woman, and, hiding > from his companions, went with a caravan bound for Takkasilaa. Arrived at > Takkasilaa, he became the wife of the Treasurer of that city and had two sons. > He had already two sons in Soreyya, born to him before his transformation. >...they both returned to Soreyya and invited Mahaa Kaccaayana to a > meal. Soreyya fell at his feet, confessed his fault, and asked for forgiveness. > When the Elder pardoned him, he once more became a man. ...Before that, when people asked him which > of his children he loved best, he would say: "Those to whom I gave birth while a > woman"; but after attaining arahantship he would say: "My affections are set on > no one." Wow! That is quite an amazing transformational story of transsexual transmigration. Who needs soap operas? I like the happy "Buddhist" ending: "My affections are set on no one." Only in Buddhism is the happy end of a crazy love story total detachment! [The 6th century BC version of "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."] Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122940 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:47 am Subject: Beyond Release! bhikkhu5 Friends: Simple Satisfaction, Liberation, and the Ultimate Release! The Blessed Buddha once said: There is the satisfaction of the flesh. There is a mental liberation not of this world. There is an ultimate release far beyond even subtle unworldly liberation! And what, Bhikkhus, is carnal satisfaction? Satisfaction with whatever form, or sensation that is carnal satisfaction. And what is the mental liberation, which is not of this world? Liberation from any formless state is liberation, which is not of this world. Finally, friends, what is the ultimate release beyond unworldly liberation? When a Bhikkhu, whose mental fermentations are eliminated, reviews his stilled mind released from all lust, freed from all hatred, and completely cleared from all confusion, then there occurs a transcendental deliverance. This is called the release beyond that release, which is not of this world... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book IV [235-7] Section 36:11 On Feeling: Vedanâ. Joys beyond this world ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Beyond Release! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #122941 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:35 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Sarah and all, ------------ >> KH: The words on this list (or on any true Dhamma forum) *describe* the present moment, don't they? That's what the Dhamma does, so what else would a Dhamma discussion do? >> >> Every word on DSG must be understood in terms of satipatthana – right understanding of the present moment reality. >> >S: Yes! --------------- KH: The Dhamma really is unique. Scott mentioned religions and psychotherapy etc, but there is no comparison. How can we compare something that exists with something that doesn't exist? --------- > S: p.s Ken, I did try to mention your invention and need of a manufacturer/distributor at breakfast with a couple of musicians. It went down like a lead balloon, I'm afraid. They were just asking me what the invention was and weren't interested in the rest ---------- KH: Thanks for trying, Sarah. I must apologise for getting behind with my DSG correspondence. Still reading all the messages, of course, but perhaps I've been preoccupied with worldly matters - matters that will ultimately get no one anywhere. :-) Ken H #122942 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:59 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Ken H., KH: "The Dhamma really is unique. Scott mentioned religions and psychotherapy etc, but there is no comparison. How can we compare something that exists with something that doesn't exist?..." Scott: If you would have read what I was saying, then you'd have been able to see that I was stating uncategorically that the Dhamma and psychotherapy are apples and oranges and that I think Religion is totally stupid. I was suggesting to Sarah that 'counselling' has no place on the list and that 'counselling' - even with Dhamma words - is pointless. While we agree, I consider your statement to be an example of something that cannot be discussed. I consider this to be a truism. What is the 'religion' of the list? I challenge it. Scott. #122943 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 11:24 am Subject: Re: discussion from DCG group. scottduncan2 Jon, "...where the discussion has been at cross purposes for somewhat similar reasons..." Scott: Just out of curiosity, can you say more about what this is referring to? I mean 'discussion...at cross purposes.' Which purposes do you see as crossing in the general discussion on the list? Scott. #122944 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:08 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: ...Still reading all the messages, of course, but perhaps I've been preoccupied with worldly matters - matters that will ultimately get no one anywhere. :-) Not to worry: Marketing your invention ----> Worldly success ----> increased budget [$$$] ----> Purchase more BPS editions ----> Pariyatti ----> Vipassana! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122945 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 3:26 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low rjkjp1 Dear Scott if someone understands anatta, and reflects on death habitually in Dhamma ways- even without any panna. Realises that seeing is different from thinking, that thinking is just an element. That death is momentary, that conditions will result in future lives. And I mean mere intellectual understanding, no panna involved. Do you think they could ever be depressed beyond a short while, or panic, or be unreasonably enraged - for more than a brief period. So what would be left for pyschotherapy to do? marriage counselling maybe? robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Rob. K., > > R: "hard to see how psychotherapy could offer anything more than understanding of Dhamma?" > > Scott: I don't follow. I'm like 'psychotherapy is just psychotherapy - not Dhamma, and why bother mixing them?' I didn't think psychotherapy could offer understanding of the Dhamma. > > Scott. > #122946 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 3:46 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Scott, ----- >> KH: "The Dhamma really is unique. Scott mentioned religions and psychotherapy etc, but there is no comparison. How can we compare something that exists with something that doesn't exist?..." >> > Scott: If you would have read what I was saying, then you'd have been able to see that I was stating uncategorically that the Dhamma and psychotherapy are apples and oranges and that I think Religion is totally stupid. ------ KH: An interesting typo, "uncategorically" :-) But I must admit to not knowing exactly what you and Sarah have been disagreeing about. I am not a good listener at the best of times, so this won't be the first time I have got the wrong end of the stick. ------------------------ > Scott: I was suggesting to Sarah that 'counselling' has no place on the list and that 'counselling' - even with Dhamma words - is pointless. ------------------------ KH: But Scott, there are only the presently arisen dhammas. That's what DSG is all about. So when a DSG dinosaur like Sarah posts a message here you can be sure it's about satipatthana. It might sound like the sort of conventional advice that is commonly given to people who believe in a permanent self, but it is actually meant to be understood in terms of satipatthana. So if you hear someone saying that right understanding will "end drug addiction" "save marriages" "put hairs on your chest" or whatever, always ask first, are they actually talking about the presently arisen dhammas? Give them the benefit of the doubt. Ken H #122947 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 3:56 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ------- <. . .> > RE: Not to worry: Marketing your invention ----> Worldly success ----> increased budget [$$$] ----> Purchase more BPS editions ----> Pariyatti ----> Vipassana! ------- KH: Thanks for putting my mind at ease. :-) But then again, aren't there just the presently dhammas? Why should anyone worry about anything! Ken H #122948 From: "philip" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 5:07 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low philofillet Hi Rob K > And I mean mere intellectual understanding, no panna involved. Basic question, maybe off topic, but just checking. Isn't some degree of panna performing its function when there is correct intellectual understanding? Thanks Phil #122949 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Basic question, maybe off topic, but just checking. Isn't some degree of panna performing its function when there is correct intellectual understanding? > > Thanks > > Phil > Dear Phil, yes I used to have that idea, But it pays not to express that here. The concensus: ++++++++++++ """a lot of the time, for me at least, especially when considering finer points of abhidhamma, it essentially goes down to considering abhidhamma like one would a science/philosophy and working out the logic of it, and then working out the supposed mental states - this is probably all akusala. And I think the perception which develops at such moments of thinking about Dhamma and delving into the meaning of the texts/discussion/terms, is in fact wrong""" +++++++++++++++++++++ ""That sort of discussion approach and ensuing verification of what is right/wrong imo essentially starts to equal to science or boolean algebra even,""" +++++++++++++++ ""If we just repeat something we've read in a text without any understanding (even at the pariyatti level) of dhammas, of realities, at that moment, I don't see there being any samma ditthi.""" ++++++++++++++++++++++ KH: "...So, is the snow shoveler any more Buddhist than the rampaging gunman? I say no; there are concepts and there are realities, and never the twain shall meet..." ++++++++++++++ So if some of us express a idea based on what we believe Dhamma is, or cite passages from the Tipitika that will be seen as repeating something we've read in a text without any understanding. That by the way is what I do (repeat something I read in texts). I still find this no-samma-ditthi way of thinking about life/khandhas makes for a relaxed life: which is why I dont see psychotherapy offering more It is of course pure coincidence that my interest happens to be about Buddhist Dhamma. I could have been equally enthralled with Christian, science or black majic I guess: it been all akusala. robert #122950 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Hello szmicio Dear Jose, > My English is very limited: I can read, can understand little in conversations, speak and write even less more. So... Don´t spect to see my posts here. I am one who only read and mumble... Sorry! L: That was the same with me before coming to the group, I could almost not speak english, and didnt understand at least half of the words in Dhamma books and in general english text. Since I am stuyding here on DSG,and readig Acharn Sujin and Nina books, my english is now much more improved, and without any english teacher. So I think just patience, and perseverance, and the time will come you will be understand and write English. This is very good way of learning english, but of course it never should be the purpose of Studying Dhamma. For me your language seems very OK. > It seems I only take and not give anything, but, first the Language limitation, second and more relevant: I don´t have much to apport, I'm very limited in pañña. L: Asking questions and shering your difficulties, here on a group is a great offerring, it's a big help for all Dhamma friends here. Take care Lukas #122951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Those who faced Death with calm and equanimity nilovg Dear Sarah, Again, a reminder I appreciate so much. Not being neglectful at this moment, when we are not yet in big trouble. In the ultimate sense, we are in trouble, yes, because of the many moments of akusala now. Nina. Op 1-mrt-2012, om 11:15 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Of course, our emotions are all conditioned from moment to moment, > but wise reflection now, understanding of the Teachings is the best > training. If we don't pass the small tests in life, how can we pass > the big tests when time comes? #122952 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Dear Jose, Op 1-mrt-2012, om 15:47 heeft Jose Maria het volgende geschreven: > My English is very limited: I can read, can understand little in > conversations, speak and write even less more. So... Don´t spect to > see my posts here. I am one who only read and mumble... Sorry! It > seems I only take and not give anything, but, first the Language > limitation, second and more relevant: I don´t have much to apport, > I'm very limited in pañña. Thank you very much for your share. You > all change my insight on Buddhism a lot and make my feel I found > 'home' at last. ------ Welcome here on the list. Do not worry about language, you are fine and you write clearly. We all are limited in pa~n~naa, we have to develop it on and on. That is why we remind each other here on the list not to be neglectful. I am glad you feel already at home here. If you have any questions about my writings, you are most welcome. Best wishes, Nina. #122953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The way of kusala that is helping. nilovg Dear Scott, Very good to discuss helping. I am very interested in the ten ways of kusala deeds, pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. These can be seen as threefold: generosity, siila and bhaavana. Below some quotations from Kh Sujin's book on this subject. A Conversation between Kh Sujin and Kh Wantana. I snipped to make it shorter. Op 1-mrt-2012, om 14:31 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > Were there no ideas within what I wrote that could be pursued? I > can think of: Dhamma versus counselling; the Dhamma involved in > 'trying to help'; Dhamma homogenization - to suggest a few. ------- N: Quote: (end quote) ------- Nina. #122954 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:25 pm Subject: Re: discussion from DCG group. jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Jon, > > "...where the discussion has been at cross purposes for somewhat similar reasons..." > > Scott: Just out of curiosity, can you say more about what this is referring to? I mean 'discussion...at cross purposes.' Which purposes do you see as crossing in the general discussion on the list? > =============== I'm not sure if "cross purposes" was the correct expression, but what I meant was just what I was trying to highlight about Rob's tongue in cheek exchange: that one person was speaking about dhammas while the other was speaking about situations and not fully appreciating the difference. I hope this clarifies. Jon #122955 From: "José M. Galán" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sisabianovenia El 02/03/2012 05:31 a.m., Nina van Gorkom escribió: > Welcome here on the list. Do not worry about language, you are fine > and you write clearly. > We all are limited in pa~n~naa, we have to develop it on and on. That > is why we remind each other here on the list not to be neglectful. I > am glad you feel already at home here. If you have any questions > about my writings, you are most welcome. > > Best wishes, > Nina. Thank you, Nina! Jose #122956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Ken H and Scott, Op 2-mrt-2012, om 5:46 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > But Scott, there are only the presently arisen dhammas. That's what > DSG is all about. So when a DSG dinosaur like Sarah posts a message > here you can be sure it's about satipatthana. It might sound like > the sort of conventional advice that is commonly given to people > who believe in a permanent self, but it is actually meant to be > understood in terms of satipatthana. ------ N: Very good. It is the same with regard to the good advice about kusala in daily life. It may seem too simple, but no, it means the citta at a particular moment has to be understood: is it kusala or akusala? We should not despise kusala that may seem slight or too simple. Or we may think that we know this already. Never enough understanding. Let us not waste any opportunity for kusala, there are already too many akusala cittas. ----- Nina. #122957 From: "José M. Galán" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello sisabianovenia El 02/03/2012 05:24 a.m., Lukas escribió: > For me your language seems very OK. > > L: Asking questions and shering your difficulties, here on a group is > a great offerring, it's a big help for all Dhamma friends here. Thank you, Lukas! Jose #122958 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:07 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low ptaus1 Hi RobK, Hope you won't mind me making a note here, since you were using my words to illustrate the supposed consensus: > RobK: So if some of us express a idea based on what we believe Dhamma is, or cite passages from the Tipitika that will be seen as repeating something we've read in a text without any understanding. > ... it been all akusala. Imo, that doesn't really reflect what I was saying. I mean, quoting texts is an activity/situation. Dhammas behind it may be kusala or akusala. So, not necessarily always without understanding and always akusala. Nor is it guaranteed that they're always kusala and always with understanding. I hope at some point we could discuss the relationship between words and right view. Best wishes pt #122959 From: "philip" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:50 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low philofillet Hi Rob > Dear Phil, > yes I used to have that idea, But it pays not to express that here. > The concensus: > ++++++++++++ > """a lot of the time, for me at least, especially when considering finer > points of abhidhamma, it essentially goes down to considering abhidhamma like > one would a science/philosophy and working out the logic of it, and then working > out the supposed mental states - this is probably all akusala. And I think the > perception which develops at such moments of thinking about Dhamma and delving > into the meaning of the texts/discussion/terms, is in fact wrong""" > +++++++++++++++++++++ > ""That sort of discussion approach and ensuing verification of what is right/wrong > imo essentially starts to equal to science or boolean algebra even,""" It can't be equal to science or algebra, it's Dhamma, if we can't confirm that what is to be rightly understood is as explained by the Abhidhamma texts we are doomed to play the experiential game a la misreading of the Kalama sutta. You wrote a very good post once abput how people have trouble with theory, you wrote about how if our understanding of Dhamma is not built on a correct theoretical foundation, we are sure to go wrong. This is why I sometimes dispute the oft-repeated "Abhidhamma is not in the book", I think it best stay in the book unless the dhammas that are being explained in the book happen to appear, otherwise lobha tries to take them out, just as lobha manipulates dhammas for the meditator. But whether it stays is the book or not is anatta, no control. These days for me there is not much interest in Dhamma, that can't be controlled either. Anyways, glad you didn't disappear Rob. Phil > > ""If we just repeat something we've read in > a text without any understanding (even at the pariyatti level) of dhammas, of > realities, at that moment, I don't see there being any samma ditthi.""" > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > KH: "...So, is the snow shoveler any more Buddhist than the rampaging gunman? I > say no; there are concepts and there are realities, and never the twain shall > meet..." > ++++++++++++++ > > So if some of us express a idea based on what we believe Dhamma is, or cite passages from the Tipitika that will be seen as repeating something we've read in a text without any understanding. > That by the way is what I do (repeat something I read in texts). I still find this no-samma-ditthi way of thinking about life/khandhas makes for a relaxed life: which is why I dont see psychotherapy offering more > > It is of course pure coincidence that my interest happens to be about Buddhist Dhamma. I could have been equally enthralled with Christian, science or black majic I guess: it been all akusala. > robert > #122960 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low ptaus1 Hi Colette, > colette: "a little bit of Dhamma discussion"? Are you nuts? EVERYTHING HAS TO DO WITH DHARMA. Just where did the Buddha put forth the caviet that the Dharma only exists to be spoken of and to be experienced by terms defined in the dharma itself, THAT THERE SHALL BE NO EXPERIENCE MENTIONED THAT IS EXPERIENCED UNLESS IT IS FIRST DESIGNATED AS A DHARMA EXPERIENCE? Thanks for that. Best wishes pt #122961 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. ptaus1 Hi Dieter, > I hope you don't mind a comment to your stated opinion and connect that opportunity for promotion of the > Cetasikas In Daily Life- Project ;-) : Thanks for the quotes. Best wishes pt #122962 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:34 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. ptaus1 Hi KenH and Scott, > Hi Scott and Pt, > > This is a difficult thread to follow, so forgive me if I am missing the point: > > ---- > <. . .> > S: Reminders about the present moment are statements. They do > not represent discussion. <. . .> > And, need I remind you, you are suggesting it to someone for whom the importance of the moment is well-established. The words on this list are not and will never be 'the moment.' > ---- > > KH: The words on this list (or on any true Dhamma forum) *describe* the present moment, don't they? That's what the Dhamma does, so what else would a Dhamma discussion do? > > Every word on DSG must be understood in terms of satipatthana - right understanding of the present moment reality. > > KH: The words on this list (or on any true Dhamma forum) *describe* the present moment, don't they? That's what the Dhamma does, so what else would a Dhamma discussion do? My understanding of the situation is that Scott is referring to a scholarly discussion - basically, what do we understand the texts to say on a particular issue. Furthering the discussion to refer to the present moment and how we go about the discussion right now, that somewhat widens the scope of the discussion and takes it into an area that cannot be discussed - I don't know your cittas, you don't know mine (and often both of us are ignorant of our own cittas), so how can we discuss it (though I think we can remind each other about the value of kusala now). Hence why I think Scott prefers to stick to scholarly discussions, as it takes out the unknown out of the equation. That is my appraisal of the situation and it's quite possible I'm wrong. Best wishes pt #122963 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. ptaus1 Hi Scott, I think I addressed most of the issues you raise below in posts to RobK - sorry I got into the habit of answering posts starting from the most recent and so due to lack of time it takes me a while to get to older posts by what time they're already past the due date. Anyway, if you feel I haven't addressed some of your concerns below, please let me know. Best wishes pt > Scott: No. First of all, this discussion is fixated on 'right and wrong way of expressing things' and that is not my fixation. I am saying that there is 'right' and 'wrong' when it comes to the Dhamma. I am saying that if one wishes to state truisms this is fine but this is not 'discussion.' It is akin to 'preaching.' > Scott: We disagree. Reminders about the present moment are statements. They do not represent discussion. In fact, such statements, expressed in opposition to statements about 'practice' represent poles in a dialectic that can't be avoided. > In the above you are disagreeing with the view that discussion is about right or wrong. You are offering an opposing view. And, need I remind you, you are suggesting it to someone for whom the importance of the moment is well-established. The words on this list are not and will never be 'the moment.' ... > Scott: Is there 'right' and 'wrong' or not? Is this expressed on a list using 'ideas and concepts' or not? How do you propose to write a post on the list which is able to encapsulate with and within the words the actual arising of right view? This discussion has started to unearth what seem to be magical beliefs about words and phrases. Do you actually propose some impossible feat of somehow composing posts that are not posts but actual moments of consciousness? > > Pariyatti has been defined now as 'thinking with pa~n~naa.' How do you propose to moderate this if the 'actual arising of pa~n~naa' has now become the newest arbitrator of a proper post on the list? #122964 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 12:16 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Hey Rob K., R: "if someone understands anatta, and reflects on death habitually in Dhamma ways- even without any panna. Realises that seeing is different from thinking, that thinking is just an element. That death is momentary, that conditions will result in future lives. And I mean mere intellectual understanding, no panna involved. Do you think they could ever be depressed beyond a short while, or panic, or be unreasonably enraged - for more than a brief period." Scott: It's hard to say - maybe, maybe not. 'Depressed' may only 'appear' to last for long periods without such thinking, I don't know. Maybe. Such thinking, minus the psychotherapy situation, might very well function like supportive psychotherapy since the favourites psychotherapies are all about thinking - different content but still. I don't consider 'thinking about things' - no matter the content - to define psychotherapy. I'm saying that 'ordinary' psychotherapy and the Dhamma are two different things, and that it trivializes the Dhamma to imagine it to be a literal form of psychotherapy. Dhamma as 'medicine' is a simile. I'm confronting the 'DSG as counselling centre' thing, challenging notions about indiscriminate 'helping' as kusala, let alone Dhamma. Scott. #122965 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 12:27 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Ken H., KH: "...But Scott, there are only the presently arisen dhammas. That's what DSG is all about. So when a DSG dinosaur like Sarah posts a message here you can be sure it's about satipatthana. It might sound like the sort of conventional advice that is commonly given to people who believe in a permanent self, but it is actually meant to be understood in terms of satipatthana. So if you hear someone saying that right understanding will 'end drug addiction' 'save marriages' 'put hairs on your chest' or whatever, always ask first, are they actually talking about the presently arisen dhammas? Give them the benefit of the doubt." Scott: I'm aware of the DSG thing - I might not be a 'dinosaur' but I get it. Jon notes that ultimate and conventional are at cross-purposes on the list. This has always been happening. I don't have a problem with the distinction but am suggesting that even the 'dinosaurs' will massage the difference when the aim is to state a truism. When offering advice couched in Dhamma words, this distinction is being blurred on purpose. The 'dinosaurs' like it when you repeat the mantra about satipa.t.thaana - and it is true - but they will also give advice about how to be and what to do. It's not about 'benefit of the doubt' since a great deal of weight is given to appearances on the list. Many statements 'appear' to be ordinary boodisty admonitions I could hear in boodist sunday school. The advice will not do a thing since the advice cannot be followed (anatta) but do the advisees know this? Or are they, like the great masses of people, wanting relief, not Dhamma? Scott. #122966 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 12:29 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...Anyway, if you feel I haven't addressed some of your concerns below, please let me know..." Scott: You really haven't, since you weren't addressing me. I don't need any replies, carry on. Scott. #122967 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 12:57 am Subject: Re: discussion from DCG group. scottduncan2 Dear Jon, J: "I'm not sure if 'cross purposes' was the correct expression, but what I meant was just what I was trying to highlight about Rob's tongue in cheek exchange: that one person was speaking about dhammas while the other was speaking about situations and not fully appreciating the difference..." Scott: Okay, I get it now. I would suggest that wrestling with this distinction *is* at the heart of matter. I keep suggesting that this distinction is blurred in different ways according to the aim of the particular point wishing to be made. I opine that posts on a list can *only* be conceptual and that, at times, the literality of things is taken to the point of absurdity in the interest of other aims. Scott. #122968 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 8:09 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube Hi Rob and Scott, This may not be good to come into a discusion without knowing what is actually being discussed but this question is OBVIOUS: > R: "hard to see how psychotherapy could offer anything more than understanding of Dhamma?" colette: <.....> Sorry R. you are intentionally ignoring the actual problem or you are merely going along to get along when it comes to giving psychotherapists and psychotherapy a pass on this one. The common practice of Psychotherapy is to dictate what the Dharma is and IF SO, TO RE-WRITE THE DHARMA SO THAT DRUG CARTELS ARE PROPERLY ACKNOWLEDGED AS BEING PART OF CREATION (see Creationist Theory). toodels, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Rob. K., > > R: "hard to see how psychotherapy could offer anything more than understanding of Dhamma?" > > Scott: I don't follow. I'm like 'psychotherapy is just psychotherapy - not Dhamma, and why bother mixing them?' I didn't think psychotherapy could offer understanding of the Dhamma. > > Scott. > #122969 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:13 am Subject: Re: discussion from DCG group. jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > J: "I'm not sure if 'cross purposes' was the correct expression, but what I meant was just what I was trying to highlight about Rob's tongue in cheek exchange: that one person was speaking about dhammas while the other was speaking about situations and not fully appreciating the difference..." > > Scott: Okay, I get it now. I would suggest that wrestling with this distinction *is* at the heart of matter. I keep suggesting that this distinction is blurred in different ways according to the aim of the particular point wishing to be made. I opine that posts on a list can *only* be conceptual and that, at times, the literality of things is taken to the point of absurdity in the interest of other aims. > =============== J: I'm not trying to avoid whatever dhamma issue it is you're wishing to discuss, it's just that I can't really get the point you're making :-)) If you could state it as a clear proposition I'd be happy to respond. Jon #122970 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:01 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 colette, I was dumb when I read what Rob had written. I know what he meant. He said that psychotherapy can't offer more than Dhamma. So he wrote in praise of Dhamma. c: "The common practice of Psychotherapy is to dictate what the Dharma is and IF SO, TO RE-WRITE THE DHARMA SO THAT DRUG CARTELS ARE PROPERLY ACKNOWLEDGED AS BEING PART OF CREATION (see Creationist Theory)." Scott: Yeah, like I don't think of the drug cartels when I think of psychotherapy - I call that psychopharmacology. I think of talking therapy. But I DON'T think it's Dhamma *and* and DON'T think DHAMMA WORDS have any magic in them such that saying them to someone is going to make them feel any given way whatsoever either. I love to read fantasy and sci-fi, but I don't believe in magic. Although I did see a gnome once, years ago... Scott. #122971 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:22 am Subject: Re: discussion from DCG group. scottduncan2 Jon, J: "I'm not trying to avoid whatever dhamma issue it is you're wishing to discuss, it's just that I can't really get the point you're making ... If you could state it as a clear proposition I'd be happy to respond." Scott: Not trying to make any point, Jon, other than to paraphrase what I thought you had said. Your clarification was quite clear to me. No Dhamma to discuss here. You simply answered my question. Scott. #122972 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:32 am Subject: The 10 Perfections Explained. bhikkhu5 Friends: The10 Perfect Qualities Explained: The 10 Perfect Qualities (Dasa Parami ) are: The 1st Perfection: Generosity (DÄna ): Just as a water pot turned upside down lets all its liquid run out, and takes none of it back, so is the perfection of generosity not having the slightest remorse over what has been given away, even when sacrificing everything! The 2nd Perfection: Morality (SÄ«la ): Just as a yak whose tail is caught in bush will rather die than to tear it off, so consists the perfection of morality in being meticulously careful about keeping all precepts and promises & not breaking them in any circumstance, even if being threatened with death! The 3rd Perfection: Withdrawal (Nekkhamma ): Just as one imprisoned in jail does not desire anything more intensely than to get out of there, so the perfection of withdrawing renunciation consists in the longing to get out of the prison of transitory existence & having only this one wish: To spit out the impermanent, to be rid of it once and for all! The 4th Perfection: Understanding (PaÃ±Ã±Ä ): Just as a monk on alms-round neglects no house, but goes to all the families without exception, so the perfection of understanding consists in leaving no gaps, leaving nothing out, & of being ready to learn from all wise people, who are more advanced, even though they may be younger than oneself. The 5th Perfection: Energy (Viriya ): Just as a lion marshals his strength whether standing, going, or sitting even so does the perfection of energetic & enthusiastic effort consist in keeping on striving with initiative launching into action, that endures until fulfilment! The 6th Perfection: Patience (Khanti): Just as the great earth accepts even the most disgusting things thrown onto it, so consists the perfection of patience in accepting slander, disgrace and every disrespect without aversion, enduring them, while letting them pass. The 7th Perfection: Honesty (Sacca ): Just as a star never strays from its fixed orbit, so consists the perfection of honest truthfulness in not lying under any circumstances, not moving even an inch from the actual and real truth for any trivial advantage whatsoever. The 8th Perfection: Determination (AdhitthÄna ): Just as a mountain stands immoveable even in the strongest storm and is incapable of being thrown over, so consists the perfection of determination in remaining unshakeable in one's advantageous choices and not being able to be distracted by anything when pursuing something good and beneficial. The 9th Perfection: Friendliness (MettÄ ): Just as water refreshes and cleanses both just and unjust persons without discrimination, so does the perfection of friendliness include both friends and foes alike and doesn't display any distinction, favouritism, or partiality. The 10th Perfection: Equanimity (UpekkhÄ ): Just as the great earth remains unmoved and equanimous, avoiding like and dislike whether one throws pure or impure things onto it, even so does the perfection of equanimity consist in always remaining, calm and composed, neither being repulsed, nor attracted, whether by any pain or any pleasure. Imperturbable even in strong conflicts, as well as in the greatest success! <....> Source: Buddhavamsa II verses 117-166 (Edited Excerpt): In: Similes of the Buddha: An introduction BP 427S by Hellmuth Hecker. Tr. Ven. KhantipÄlo and Ven. Piyadhammo. Ed. Ven. Nyanatusita. http://www.bps.lk The 10 Perfections Explained. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <...> #122973 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 11:46 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > ------- > <. . .> > > RE: Not to worry: Marketing your invention ----> Worldly success ----> increased budget [$$$] ----> Purchase more BPS editions ----> Pariyatti ----> Vipassana! > ------- > > KH: Thanks for putting my mind at ease. :-) > > But then again, aren't there just the presently dhammas? Why should anyone worry about anything! It's just an occupational hazard of worldlings to worry about that which doesn't exist, and a temporary balm of Sangha to reassure the imaginary being that citta imagines, when metta happens to arise due to conditions. :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122974 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 11:53 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low epsteinrob Hi Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Basic question, maybe off topic, but just checking. Isn't some degree of panna performing its function when there is correct intellectual understanding? > Dear Phil, > yes I used to have that idea, But it pays not to express that here. > The concensus: > ++++++++++++ > """a lot of the time, for me at least, especially when considering finer > points of abhidhamma, it essentially goes down to considering abhidhamma like > one would a science/philosophy and working out the logic of it, and then working > out the supposed mental states - this is probably all akusala. And I think the > perception which develops at such moments of thinking about Dhamma and delving > into the meaning of the texts/discussion/terms, is in fact wrong""" ... > So if some of us express a idea based on what we believe Dhamma is, or cite passages from the Tipitika that will be seen as repeating something we've read in a text without any understanding. > That by the way is what I do (repeat something I read in texts). I still find this no-samma-ditthi way of thinking about life/khandhas makes for a relaxed life: which is why I dont see psychotherapy offering more > > It is of course pure coincidence that my interest happens to be about Buddhist Dhamma. I could have been equally enthralled with Christian, science or black majic I guess: it been all akusala. I think that the correct intellectual understanding of Dhamma, repeating and investigating relevant passages, is definitely something that everyone does on dsg, objections to the contrary notwithstanding. It's also been expressed many times that wise consideration of the Dhamma is necessary to development of pariyatti. I think that people just want to emphasize that moments of arising dhammas are the main point of all of that, not that one shouldn't read, figure out, or speak about scriptural information. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #122975 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 12:00 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Many statements 'appear' to be ordinary boodisty admonitions I could hear in boodist sunday school. The advice will not do a thing since the advice cannot be followed (anatta) but do the advisees know this? Or are they, like the great masses of people, wanting relief, not Dhamma? Everyone wants relief. It's the nature of the beast. - Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122976 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 12:04 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Everyone wants relief. It's the nature of the beast." Scott: What is the point here? Scott. #122977 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 4:10 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "Everyone wants relief. It's the nature of the beast." > > Scott: What is the point here? The point is that you can expect everyone to desire relief from pain, that is the nature of the worldling. I guess the question is how you deal with that. I think the Buddha's answer to seeing beings in pain is both metta and Dhamma. Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #122978 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Pt, -------- > Pt: My understanding of the situation is that Scott is referring to a scholarly discussion - basically, what do we understand the texts to say on a particular issue. Furthering the discussion to refer to the present moment and how we go about the discussion right now, that somewhat widens the scope of the discussion and takes it into an area that cannot be discussed - I don't know your cittas, you don't know mine (and often both of us are ignorant of our own cittas), so how can we discuss it (though I think we can remind each other about the value of kusala now). Hence why I think Scott prefers to stick to scholarly discussions, as it takes out the unknown out of the equation. That is my appraisal of the situation and it's quite possible I'm wrong. --------- KH: Thank you very much for that explanation, which I think I almost follow. :-) Can you give an example of "furthering the discussion to refer to the present moment"? That would help. Meanwhile I can only repeat: if a discussion is not about the present moment it's not a Dhamma discussion. I wonder if anyone here disagrees with that. If so, could they please give an example of a Dhamma discussion that was not about the present moment? How would such an example sit with the Satipatthana Sutta, which says when a monk is speaking he knows reality as it ultimately is? Does that sutta say that a monk (someone who is practising satipatthana at the given moment) can speak (walk etc) without knowing reality as it ultimately is? How would that work? Ken H #122979 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 5:12 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. philofillet Hi Rob E --to reassure the imaginary being that citta imagines, when metta happens to arise due to conditions. :-) > Wow, you believe beings are imaginary? I wish I could say that myself. Or are you being jolly and jokey? Phil #122980 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 5:37 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. philofillet Hi again Rob E > Wow, you believe beings are imaginary? I wish I could say that myself. Or are you being jolly and jokey? > Let me amend that to make it less snarky. Since this list is mostly dedicated to trying to convince people not to believe what they believe about Dhamma, should be clear bout whether we really believe something or are just throwing around received ideas in a light-hearted way, gets confusing, you know? Phil #122981 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:38 pm Subject: Re: Hello sarahprocter... Hi Jose, I join Lukas & Nina in welcoming you here and thanking you for your helpful and interesting introduction. I appreciate your keen interest in the Dhamma and your efforts to read and write in English. It's great that you can appreciate the Abhidhamma and benefit from Nina's and Sujin's books. Do join in or add any comments/questions anytime. As Lukas mentioned, we all benefit from these - sometimes the simplest questions are the best! Also, if you read any extracts in the books which you wish to share, please do so. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Maria" wrote: > > I´m a new member. From Argentina, Buenos Aires city. I found this group searching for imformation on Abhidhamma. <...> #122982 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, all, > > When the sutta says: > > ========================================================= > "now I shall control it properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut" > ========================================================== > > To me it means what it says. > > > To influence and force the mind for the better. I can't believe that it is supposed to be interpreted to mean the opposite of what it says. .... S: NIna wrote some helpful comments about sati and panna as indriyas, controlling faculties and about reading any passages in the light of anatta. I added some detail from the commentary which emphasised the development of vipassana - the understanding of conditioned dhammas, anatta. If anyone would prefer to believe in a Self which can control the mind and anything else, they can of course read any sutta, any Abhidhamma text and anything else in that light. It all depends on accumulations how any teaching or reading is understood. It was the same in the Buddha's time. He was the greatest teacher/healer/counsellor and out of wisdom and compassion taught the Dhamma for 45 years, knowing that not everyone would appreciate what was said. It doesn't matter - we share what we find helpful and leave it to conditions as to whether there's any benefit to others. Praise, blame - just worldly conditions of no importance at all. Always back to the understanding of the present moment as Ken H said. Metta Sarah ===== #122983 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:55 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >...What we know is that the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching of pleasant and unpleasant objects now is the result of past kamma and have confidence that it is the kusala/akusala in 'reaction' to such experiences that perpetuates the cycle. Hence we read about the 3 rounds of vipaka vata, kilesa vata and kamma vata. > > Good to have this repeated clarification. It is helpful. ... S: I also just mentioned the worldly conditions in passing to Alex, such as praise and blame. Again, just moments of experiencing of pleasant and unpleasant objects leading to different kinds of thinking. When we appreciate that the moments of vipaka are just brief moments of experience through the sense doors and the problems all lie in the thinking with attachment, aversion and ignorance, we'll be less influenced, less disturbed by what is experienced. Again - just passing dhammas, anatta. ... > > > *Soreyya. ... > Wow! That is quite an amazing transformational story of transsexual transmigration. Who needs soap operas? ... S: I know - we find every aspect of life is covered in the Teachings:-) Still, all just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. ... > > I like the happy "Buddhist" ending: "My affections are set on no one." Only in Buddhism is the happy end of a crazy love story total detachment! [The 6th century BC version of "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."] ... S: Yes, the Buddhist endings are the best..... the end of all affections, the end of ignorance, the end of further existence. Metta Sarah ===== #122984 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 10:16 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Dear Rob K & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ""If we just repeat something we've read in > a text without any understanding (even at the pariyatti level) of dhammas, of > realities, at that moment, I don't see there being any samma ditthi.""" > ++++++++++++++++++++++ S: Would you disagree with this quote of mine, you suggest as being "the consensus"? ... > So if some of us express a idea based on what we believe Dhamma is, or cite passages from the Tipitika that will be seen as repeating something we've read in a text without any understanding. ... S: I don't follow why should it should be seen in this way? How does this follow? Does it matter what anyone thinks anyway? Doesn't it again come back to panna, not the other people? Like now.... .... > That by the way is what I do (repeat something I read in texts). I still find this no-samma-ditthi way of thinking about life/khandhas makes for a relaxed life: which is why I dont see psychotherapy offering more > > It is of course pure coincidence that my interest happens to be about Buddhist Dhamma. I could have been equally enthralled with Christian, science or black majic I guess: it been all akusala. .... S: Again, it's only panna that ever knows any dhammas for what they are. There hasn't been any suggestion at all from me about your having/not having samma ditthi whilst making particular statements. I was just discussing dhammas and Dhamma (which is really all I'm interested in here), but again sincerely apologise if anything I've said has given the wrong impression in this regard. Metta Sarah ===== #122985 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 10:21 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: Yes, there would be most likely be cittas experiencing unpleasant rupas through the body-sense, conditioned by past kamma. > > And I assume that as long as one is busy conceptualizing, these unpleasant rupas will be translated into all kinds of ideas and stories about what is happening - such as fights with family or sickness, etc., or poverty conditions... One won't recognize them as vipaka that is coming from an original cause, but it will appear to be unpleasant circumstances instead. .... S: Yes, exactly. Whilst we think in terms of "circumstances" and "events" rather than understanding dhammas, there will always be proliferations and disturbances on account of the experiences through the senses. . Metta Sarah ====== #122986 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Sarah: "Just dhammas which 'come down to conditions', no matter what they're called. I don't think there's been any disagreement about this." > > Scott: No, true. I did make a few other points, however. It seems difficult to get some actual discussion going here - discussion that goes beyond repeating what we both agree to. Were there no ideas within what I wrote that could be pursued? I can think of: Dhamma versus counselling; the Dhamma involved in 'trying to help'; Dhamma homogenization - to suggest a few. .... Sarah: I picked out the questions in what you wrote as I recall. If there were any points/discussion topics just about dhammas or Dhamma, I'm happy to purse them. Metta Sarah ===== #122987 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind nilovg Dear Alex, Op 29-feb-2012, om 23:41 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > What do you think it means, especially the "now I shall control it > > > properly, as the hook-holder controls am elephant in rut" part? > > ------- > >N: We always have to keep in mind that there are now citta, > >cetasika >and ruupa, no me or we. > >========================================== > > It is true that we can divide experience in citta/cetasika/and rupa. > This sutta is not about this. It is telling us that control in some > way is possible. > > I don't find it convincing to add philosophical explanation why > whenever the Buddha or his disciples said "do this, do that", > "control/tame the mind" He meant other than what He has said. ------- N: There is more to it. The Buddha, when explaining Dhamma spoke by way of paramattha dhammas or he spoke in conventional language (vohara), depending on the occasion and the listeners. So, he could say: control the mind. We learn that there is not a mind that can stay, there are different cittas succeeding one another. You can verify this yourself; then there is seeing, then hearing, then citta with anger, then citta with metta. How could you take hold of one citta in order to control it? Still, we read: control the mind. We can learn about favorable and unfavorable conditions such as a good Dhamma friend, listening to the Dhamma, so that there is more understanding of what is kusala, what is akusala. In this way there are conditions for kusala cittas. This can be seen as a way to tame the mind. Before there were conditions to slander, to kill insects, to utter angry speech, etc. But by listening to the Dhamma and developing more understanding inclinations can be gradually changed. ------ Nina. #122988 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, all, >N:There is more to it. The Buddha, when explaining Dhamma spoke by >way of paramattha dhammas or he spoke in conventional language >(vohara), depending on the occasion and the listeners. So, he could >say: control the mind. >================= When the Buddha said "control the mind" did He speak incorrectly? How could "control the mind" mean that "one should not control the mind"? >Sarah: It was the same in the Buddha's time. He was the greatest >teacher/healer/counsellor and out of wisdom and compassion taught >the Dhamma for 45 years, knowing that not everyone would appreciate >what was said. >==================================================== For some strange reason the Buddha kept avoiding saying that "There is no control, nothing can be done to develop more kusala and drop akusala", etc. Why not express "Don't do anything or you will develop Self view" over and over again? Why such a thing is simply not found in Tipitaka and Visuddhimagga? It seems that "don't do anything or it will develop Self view" is not found in these sources. With metta, Alex #122989 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Me: "...I can think of: Dhamma versus counselling; the Dhamma involved in 'trying to help'; Dhamma homogenization - to suggest a few." Sarah: "I picked out the questions in what you wrote as I recall. If there were any points/discussion topics just about dhammas or Dhamma, I'm happy to purse them." Scott: In each suggested category there is room to fit into your stated parameters for discussion. Put these in your 'purse' - ha ha - and see if you can find them again. 1) Dhamma versus counselling. Do you think that merely using Dhamma-language in an attempt to 'help' someone feel better corresponds to the Dhamma? Do you think that ordinary advice on a discussion list corresponds to Dhamma? If so, how? Do you think that 'counselling' with a Dhamma twist is preferable to just 'counselling?' If so, then how. Is attempting to counsel, based on Dhamma, an example of 'applied boodism?' Given that anatta is at the base of the impersonal functioning of dhammas, I would think that 'counselling' as Dhamma discussion would be more like window-dressing. 2) The Dhamma involved in 'trying to help.' Here the operative word is 'trying.' I am making a clear distinction between the helping that happens naturally in daily life - and not the 'helping' that occurs in the ethereal space of a discussion list. How is trying to help and having a goal to help not simply desire? How is asking for help (on a list) and trying to respond to such requests not simple attention seeking and showcasing a certain point of view? 3) Dhamma homogenization. As time passes the Dhamma is subjected to the dumbing-down process of countless interpretations until today it is certainly lost beneath a lot of nonsense. While agreeing totally with the underlying message on the list related to the moment and the nature of dhammas, I question the things that have become calcified into 'religion.' And this list, despite it's core ideas with which I agree, is certainly not free of it's own 'religion.' This 'religion' serves to shepherd and constrain various written behaviours and, as all religion, to force a certain conformity. Here the question is about the subtle and not so subtle religious aspects of the list which are not at all about 'the Dhamma' but are presented as if they are. Any and all of the above can be discussed, should this be desired, from the perspective of dhammas and the Dhamma. Scott. #122990 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 1:34 am Subject: Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. yawares1 Dear Members, My name is Yawares Sastri, I love Dhammapada stories and Jataka stories very much. To me, these stories are like my magic maps to find my way to high heaven and finally to Nirvana. These stories teach me to do good deeds, to make best merits, to lead my life according to the Buddha's preaching. This beautiful Texas morning, I would like to share 'The Story of Two Splendid Swan' with you all. **************** The Story of Two Splendid Swans Once there lived myriad swans in the Manasa Lake in the Himalayas. When swarmed together they looked like the darting grove of lotuses. When they dispersed in segregation the beauty of the lake even surpassed the splendour of the embellished blue sky with the white clouds. Their soft and silky-voice was more sonorous than the sound of a woman's anklets. Furthemore, the king of the swans, called Dhritarastra was golden hued and appeared far more gracious than others. His commander-in-chief, Sumukha, however, resembled his king in every way. All the more, both were equally virtuous and elegant. By and by, the elegance of the two birds became a favourite topic of discussion among the celestial and supernatural beings like the Devas (radiant beings), Nagas (Serpants), Yaksas (ogres with great supernatural powers; also the attendants of Kubera); and the Vidyadhara women (believably dwelling in the Himalayan region and possessing the power of special sciences to perform spells). These beings also conversed with the enlightened human beings, who in turn, conversed with their disciples and friends. Thus, the fame of the two swans spread all over the human land like a wild fire and reached the court of the king of Varanasi, too. Impressed and charmed the Varanasi king's urge to possess the two birds became so intense that he decided to capture them by all means. So, he had a magnificent lake constructed, which rivalled the splendour of the Lake Manasa. Thence, a variety of attractive water plants, water lilies and lotuses of all sorts, namely, padma, utpala, kumuda, pundarika, saugandhika, tamarasa and kahlara were grown there. The lotus pollen carried by the ripples of the lake would embellish the banks like the gold wires. Further, the limpidity and calmness of the lake's transparent water displaying the fair hue of the swarms of fishes swimming beneath its surface would catch the eye of every beholder. Thus, at night the lake would become a mirror for the moon and stars. Further, the elephants dipped their trunks and blew forth the cascades of spray like the loosened pearls from a string there. And the fragrance of which then mingled with the odour of their ruts and the juices of the trampled flowers and the emanated pastes of the bathing beauties of all over the places, made the lake the most spectacular site on the earth. Furthermore, the king in order to win the confidence of the birds ensured the safety for all birds by a royal proclamation. So, myriad birds visited the newly constructed lake and made it their new home. Now, in a gorgeous autumn day, when the rainy season was just over, and the sky looked resplendent blue, a pair of Manas swans by chance flew over the newly constructed lake, which to them appeared to be the birds' paradise. Allured, they descended and lived there joyously until the advent of the next rain. Upon return to Manas, the description of the splendour of the newly discovered lake, which they narrated before their friends, impelled most of the swans to visit the new lake. But their king and his commander-in-chief were opposed to any proposal to visit the place inhabited by the human beings. He instead said: The birds and animals have the habit Of expressing their feelings by their cries; But the creatures called the `men' Are skilled in the expressions Contrary to their intentions. Nonetheless, the swans persisted and persisted; and at last the king and his commander had to accede to their repeated requests. Eventually, one day they all flew to Varanasi and descended on the new lake; and their graceful presence further enhanced the beauty and the splendour of the lake. When the swans arrived there along with the two most conspicuously gorgeous birds - whose wings were radiant gold; beaks and feet had the lustre, which even surpassed gold; and whose size exceeded an average swan - the king was informed of their arrival in no time. He then without wasting time, hired the service of a skilled fowler (nishada) to catch those two birds. The fowler in turn laid down some well-concealed snares on the sites often frequented by the two swans. Next day, when the swans were wandering cheerfully in a bright sunny day their king reached the site where the fowler had concealed a snare. And he was decoyed. Alarmed, he cried loudly to warn all his friends and called upon them to fly away. Responding to the call all the swans flew away. But Sumukha, the commander-in-chief, however, insisted to stand by his king at the time of his distress. So, despite the requests made by Yudhisthira he stood there adamantly. as the royal guests to deliver sermons When the fowler came near them, he noticed that one of the two prized swans was not caught. Nonetheless, it was neither flying away nor showing any sign of fear. The fearlessness of that bird surprised him. Further, when he came closer, Sumukha, the uncaught fearless bird, requested him to hold him captive in place of the other swan as he was his king. The exemplification of such loyalty and valour by a bird changed the mind of the nishada so much so that he released both the birds notwithstanding the fear of incurring the wrath of the Varanasi king by defying the royal order order, which meant nothing but the death sentence. The two birds did not fly away to take advantage of the situation. When set free, they wanted to reciprocate goodness to the fowler. So, they perched on his shoulders and asked him to carry them to his king because they wanted him to be saved from his king's wrath. In the court when the king was apprised of the whole story he, too, was greatly moved by the virtues and valour of the two swans. He extended hospitality to them; and amnesty to the fowler. The birds then stayed there for a few days as the royal guests to give some discourses to the king and his courtiers. They then flew back to the Manas to join other swans. Though born in an inferior family, a wise man shines forth / Like the fire in the night, if endowed with the virtuous conduct// (Tr. Jataka Pali 502.158// [The king of swans was Bodhisatta; and Ananda was the commander-in-chief]. **************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #122991 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 1:47 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "The point is that you can expect everyone to desire relief from pain, that is the nature of the worldling. I guess the question is how you deal with that. I think the Buddha's answer to seeing beings in pain is both metta and Dhamma." Scott: A truism, then, followed by rhetoric. Hardly any room for discussion here. I think Jesus' answer to seeing beings in pain is both love and Gospel. See what I mean? Rhetoric. How does this relate to 'how you deal with that?' This 'dealing with' implies instrumental, technical, 'how-to' sorts of ideas, flying in the face of the way things actually work. I am stating that helpful-appearing statements written for all to see hardly represent 'dealing with' anything, save for the construction of really boodisty on-line personas of which anyone can be proud. Also, offering rhetorical statements hardly constitutes discussion. Scott. #122992 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 4:57 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. philofillet Hi again Rob E > > --to reassure the imaginary being that citta imagines, when metta happens to arise due to conditions. :-) Ok, I see what you mean now, never mind. I think you were not joking despite the smiley face. Maybe it was a Dhamma Makes Me Happy smiley face ratger than I am joking smikey face, which I guess would be Winky. Nothing personal about this, others also like smiley man and winky man. Phil > Wow, you believe beings are imaginary? I wish I could say that myself. Or are you being jolly and jokey? > > Phil > #122993 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 10:06 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E > > --to reassure the imaginary being that citta imagines, when metta happens to arise due to conditions. :-) > > > > Wow, you believe beings are imaginary? I wish I could say that myself. Or are you being jolly and jokey? I'll give you a serious answer - I was not trying to be jokey, but it's worth clarifying. There are two levels of "deconstruction" of conventional entities that I have become aware of on dsg. One is pretty reasonable and not that hard to accept - that we do not perceive objects and people the way we think we do, that in fact we only perceive a single moment at a time through the sense doors and that through the mind door we construct imaginary images of what those objects really are. I definitely believe that is true. The second level is the belief that objects don't exist at all, and that they are nothing but images. This is more radical. Rupas exist and arise one at a time, but they don't represent any "wholes," which don't exist. That would mean that we don't really have bodies and there are actually no mountains, trains or planets. On this second level I am agnostic. I am not sure. Either way, the self is imaginary. There is no self in any way, shape or form. Whatever exists of the body and personality components, they are empty of self and just function mechanically according to conditions. There's no one home. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #122994 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 11:12 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > >...What we know is that the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching of pleasant and unpleasant objects now is the result of past kamma and have confidence that it is the kusala/akusala in 'reaction' to such experiences that perpetuates the cycle. Hence we read about the 3 rounds of vipaka vata, kilesa vata and kamma vata. > > > > Good to have this repeated clarification. It is helpful. > ... > S: I also just mentioned the worldly conditions in passing to Alex, such as praise and blame. Again, just moments of experiencing of pleasant and unpleasant objects leading to different kinds of thinking. When we appreciate that the moments of vipaka are just brief moments of experience through the sense doors and the problems all lie in the thinking with attachment, aversion and ignorance, we'll be less influenced, less disturbed by what is experienced. Again - just passing dhammas, anatta. Hm, that just clicked! I guess you never know when something may hit home for a moment. Just passing stuff...nothing worth getting upset about... > > > > > *Soreyya. ... > > > Wow! That is quite an amazing transformational story of transsexual transmigration. Who needs soap operas? > ... > S: I know - we find every aspect of life is covered in the Teachings:-) Still, all just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. > ... > > > > I like the happy "Buddhist" ending: "My affections are set on no one." Only in Buddhism is the happy end of a crazy love story total detachment! [The 6th century BC version of "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."] > ... > > S: Yes, the Buddhist endings are the best..... the end of all affections, the end of ignorance, the end of further existence. :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #122995 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 11:15 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi again Rob E > > > Wow, you believe beings are imaginary? I wish I could say that myself. Or are you being jolly and jokey? > > > Let me amend that to make it less snarky. Since this list is mostly dedicated to trying to convince people not to believe what they believe about Dhamma, should be clear bout whether we really believe something or are just throwing around received ideas in a light-hearted way, gets confusing, you know? I meant it seriously. However, when I say "beings are imaginary," the aspect of that which I feel certain about is that they are not entities. Whether they exist as ever-changing organisms or not - minus any central or internal self - is still an open question for me. My understanding of the khandas is that they are impersonal ever-shifting chains of dhammas created by causes and conditions, and are devoid of entity or self. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122996 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 11:20 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > S: Yes, there would be most likely be cittas experiencing unpleasant rupas through the body-sense, conditioned by past kamma. > > > > And I assume that as long as one is busy conceptualizing, these unpleasant rupas will be translated into all kinds of ideas and stories about what is happening - such as fights with family or sickness, etc., or poverty conditions... One won't recognize them as vipaka that is coming from an original cause, but it will appear to be unpleasant circumstances instead. > .... > S: Yes, exactly. Whilst we think in terms of "circumstances" and "events" rather than understanding dhammas, there will always be proliferations and disturbances on account of the experiences through the senses. Very interesting. You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #122997 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 10:51 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. philofillet Hi Rob E > The second level is the belief that objects don't exist at all, and that they are nothing but images. This is more radical. Rupas exist and arise one at a time, but they don't represent any "wholes," which don't exist. That would mean that we don't really have bodies and there are actually no mountains, trains or planets. On this second level I am agnostic. I am not sure. I am with you here, no doubt that beings as objects of metta can of course only be conceptual but not yet able to understand that there are no beings. But if you choose the term "deconstructionist" as you do it soynds like you are saying it is clear to you that there are beings that are broken down into paramattha parts, don't you think? Maybe that is not what you mean by decobstructionist. Anyways, can't afford to get into a discussion on this now, thanks. Phil > > Either way, the self is imaginary. There is no self in any way, shape or form. Whatever exists of the body and personality components, they are empty of self and just function mechanically according to conditions. There's no one home. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - > #122998 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 11:31 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. philofillet Hi Rob E, Sarah all > > S: Yes, exactly. Whilst we think in terms of "circumstances" and "events" rather than understanding dhammas, there will always be proliferations and disturbances on account of the experiences through the senses. > > Very interesting. You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances. > But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We think about situations in terms of vipaka, and surely it is almost alwayswith lobha in pursuit of pleasant mental feeling, Dhamma as comforter. The Buddha said that worldlings know no way away from pain except through seeking pleasure. I think we shpuld be honest with ourselves about how much of that goes on re Dhamma. No need to worry about it but we can remember how very very rare monents of kusala are. Phil #122999 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 12:43 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Phil, P: "But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We think about situations in terms of vipaka..." Scott: Correct. This is a good example of discussion which gets to the heart of a matter. You honed in on the precise wording, penetrated the ambiguity, and pointed out the rather large problem lying underneath. This being the problem with the 'experiential' school of thought. As you say, we don't 'experience dhammas as vipaka' - this is thought about. Talk about 'experience' is talk about thinking. Scott.