#124800 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 6:35 am Subject: Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > And do arahats also have moments of akusala, or has all such been eradicated completely for them? > ... > S: Completely eradicated at the path moment of becoming an arahat - even the most subtle ignorance or attachment to becoming. Thank you. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #124801 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 6:44 am Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >RE: There is no John... > I've used this as a conventional example to illustrate a point that empirically there is experience called choice I disagree that there is an empirical experience called "choice." I think there is a whole series of experiences that you are glossing together and calling "choice" which is a conceptual act. I don't think that there's such a thing as "choice" that actually takes place. > ...where there appears multiple courses of action, and choosing. Where do these 'multiple courses of action' ever appear? Only in one's imagining of the immediate future. There are no 'multiple courses' in reality. There is only what happens. > ...Is choice given in experience? Are there moments where multiple actions can possibly occur? Of course. Of course not. Multiple 'possible' actions never appear, they are imaginary. I can decide right now [due to being conditioned by this conversation] that I can either fly away on a flying unicorn, or else I can go fry some worms in the kitchen. But those possible actions that I 'choose' between are not real. Neither are any others. > To try to refute valid conventional question by going into "ultimate" analysis is not appropriate. Compare apples to apples. I'm not the one mixing them, Alex. I would never deny that there is conventional experience of choice. So what? It is a false imagination that never takes place, so I am not discussing them conventionally. What is there to say about choice conventionally? I like vanilla, you like chocolate? I thought we were talking about it in technical actuality. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #124802 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 6:54 am Subject: Re: choices epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, all, > > > >A: Past does not exist now, only present moment exists now during >which choice is made. Why do we give the past (which doesn't exist >now) equal or higher influence over the present which exists? > > > >RE: Because the present includes accumulations and tendencies, as >well as other conditions that affect what is happening at the moment >- this is true of every moment, they are never blank, until complete >cessation of experience, parinibbana. So there is no reason to >posit some sort of state that is empty of tendencies, since there is >none for worldlings, ever. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > There is no trans-temporal store-house of accumulations to affect the current citta. So the only citta that may condition the present citta is the proximate one that has just ceased as the new citta is arising. ??? You are saying that consciousness does not pass on continuity to the next arising of consciousness? That there is no continuity from moment to moment in the mind? If you believe that, how do you think a single coherent thought? > The choice in the present is what exists and can be experienced. And how is it, for example, that you make any sense of the words on this "page?" Do you not carry all of your knowledge of language and every other experience to each new experience in order to interpret or respond to it? You're not reduced to a senseless infant in each next moment, are you? > >You are idealizing "the mind." There is no such thing. Mind is >not a place or a thing. It is merely mental events, in succession. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Because mind is mental events in succession, this makes it less "whole", and easier to affect. It ceases and arises every moment. This, imho, makes it easier to change than if it was some trans-temporal thing containing accumulations for infinite past. Without accumulations we would change much more radically from moment to moment. The fact is that we have great continuity and that we don't change much at all from moment to moment, as boring as that may be. Each moment is fresh but also carries all past understanding and habitual behavior. This is easily observable and what you're saying in that regard seems to fly in the face of experience, which you say you want to take into account. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #124803 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 8:13 am Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >RE: I disagree that there is an empirical experience called >"choice." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is another example: Decide to think word "Peter" or "Paul" 5 times right now. You have sufficient conditions to do either one of those. If there is decision to think either one of them, nothing normally stops you from doing it right now. >I think there is a whole series of experiences that you are glossing >together and calling "choice" which is a conceptual act. >I don't think that there's such a thing as "choice" that actually >takes place. >============================== Do the above exercise that I've said. If we don't agree on such an empiric fact, then we probably should stop discussing this issue. >RE:Where do these 'multiple courses of action' ever appear? >>>>>>>>>>> Like in the example of: decide to think word "Peter" or "Paul" 5 times that I've said. And where does the storehouse of aeons of accumulations ever appear? >RE: Multiple 'possible' actions never appear, they are imaginary. Example: Decide to think word "Peter" or "Paul" 5 times right now. You have sufficient conditions to do either one of those. If there is decision to think either one of them, nothing normally stops you from doing it right now. >I can decide right now [due to being conditioned by this >conversation] that I can either fly away on a flying unicorn, or >else I can go fry some worms in the kitchen. But those possible >============================= Robert, now your using strawman. I've never said that choice is unconditioned. Of course one can't choose to "grow wings and fly to Pluto". That is why I kept saying that choice is conditioned. >I would never deny that there is conventional experience of choice. >So what? It is a false imagination that never takes place, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So conventional experience is false imagination and highly abstract things (which people don't naturally perceive) is true? If you ask people down the street what they experience, they will use what you call "conventional speech" with lots of "concepts". It is funny how they cognize what doesn't exist and when it comes to paramattha dhammas, we have to learn them, and since we are so deluded, it apparently will take many aeons for us to see paramattha dhammas - the only existing "reality".... With metta, Alex #124804 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 8:27 am Subject: Where are aeons of accumulations stored? truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >A:There is no trans-temporal store-house of accumulations to affect >the current citta. So the only citta that may condition the present >citta is the proximate one that has just ceased as the new citta is >arising. >====================================== >RE:???You are saying that consciousness does not pass on continuity >to the next arising of consciousness? That there is no continuity >from moment to moment in the mind? If you believe that, how do you >think a single coherent thought? >============================================= I said "only citta that may condition the present citta is the proximate one that has just ceased" . So in that way there is continuity. What idea I question is the existence of some sort of trans-temporal store-house to which accumulations go and from where influences to current citta come from. At best the idea of "aeons of accumulations" affecting us today is metaphysical and problematic. Personally I can't remember anything prior to this life and my behavior doesn't seem to require that much (if any) effects from past lives. Unless you have some sort of omniscience or clairvoyance, we take it on faith about accumulations from Aeons of past lives significantly affecting current states of consciousness including choice. It is almost as believable and provable like saying that "Everything, including my mental states, is part of G-d's divine plan, will, etc." With best wishes, Alex #124805 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 12:59 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > ---------- > > RK: Do you really think the Commentaries made things up based on some cultural belief. > ---------- > > KH: I am not saying they made things up. I am just saying conventional terms contained in the texts are to be understood as referring to dhammas. The Theras would not have seen the conventionally known heart or brain as having any ultimate validity in its own right. > > ------------------ > > RK: If they said the ear base was located in the toenail obviously they would be wrong, right? Because it is located in the conventional ear. > ------------------ > > KH: I think it's located in a kalapa, isn't it? > Dear Ken The earbase arises in a group, in a kalapa that has 9 other types of rupa intimately associated with it: the 4 elements, color, flavour odour, nutition, jivindriya. That is the actual earbase. However this ear base also must arise in a location in the body. Now that location happens to be in the ear, not in the toe. If the monks of old had said it was in the toe they would be very deluded, but of course they are not, they said( I use ninas physical phenomena) Earsense is another one of the sense-organs. It is situated in the interior of the ear, "at a spot shaped like a finger-ring and fringed by tender, tawny hairs.... "( Atthasalini II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 310.). Earsense is the rupa which has the capability to receive sound. It is basis and door of hearing-consciousnes robert , #124806 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 4:21 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert E: --- > RE: In other words, you don't consider it correct or necessary to use relations between items of Dhammic experience as referents for conventional "real-world" understanding, for which you would consult science [brain as conventional seat of consciousness] rather than Dhamma [heart as seat of consciousness.] Do I read you correctly? --- KH; Yes that is the way I see it. I don't think an enlightened being would necessarily have a good conventional scientific knowledge. I think that would include knowledge of bodily organs. I don't believe an arahant would necessarily know which bodily organ was the source of consciousness. ------- > RE: With that in mind, would you say that the direct knowing of the "heart-base" doesn't actually occur in "the body" at all, since the body too is another conventional construct? ------- KH: I am not sure I understand the question, but I would say *nothing* ultimately occurs in the conventionally known body. During a moment of satipatthana a monks directly knows there is *no* body (apart from the present, fleeting, conditioned rupa). Ken H #124807 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 4:30 pm Subject: 2007 audio - 15. Attanuditthi (wrong view of self) contd sarahprocter... Dear Friends, ***** Han: We're talking about the attavadupadana and sakkaya ditthi, not other aspects KS: Yes, but in the Tipitaka it says that attanuditthi and sakkaya ditthi have the same meaning. If there is no atta here, there is no sakkaya ditthi as mine. Han: That's what I'm saying - they're the same. KS: Yes, but this [touching the box of tissues] is atta, but this is not mine, not me. But hardness is hardness - anywhere, anytime. As hardness is anatta here, so hardness is always anatta. It cannot change from being atta to anatta or from anatta to atta because they have the same characteristic. And softness is rupa, it cannot be nama. Hardness is rupa, it cannot be nama. So we cannot change the characteristic of any reality at all because it's the absolute reality, no self. In order to get rid of or to eradicate the idea of self there is the perfect of understanding of realities as they are, because the rupa here or the rupa there or wherever rupa is, rupa is rupa, it doesn't belong to anyone at all because it arises by its own condition - kamma or citta or utu (S: temperature) or ahara (S: nutriment). Sarah: In other words, when this softness or hardness is taken for a body or me, this is sakkaya ditthi, but when this hardness is taken for a box of tissues, it is not taken for me, but it's the still the same wrong view of atta. ***** Metta Sarah ====== #124808 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ----- > RK: The earbase arises in a group, in a kalapa that has 9 other types of rupa intimately associated with it: the 4 elements, color, flavour odour, nutition, jivindriya. That is the actual earbase. However this ear base also must arise in a location in the body. ----- KH: Thanks, if I understand you correctly there is just one rupa and it can be called either `ear' or `ear base.' So there is no additional rupa that acts in some way as a base for the ear. That's where I was getting confused. ------------ > RK: Now that location happens to be in the ear, not in the toe. If the monks of old had said it was in the toe they would be very deluded, but of course they are not, they said( I use ninas physical phenomena) Earsense is another one of the sense-organs. It is situated in the interior of the ear, "at a spot shaped like a finger-ring and fringed by tender, tawny hairs.... "( Atthasalini II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 310.). Earsense is the rupa which has the capability to receive sound. It is basis and door of hearing-consciousness ------------ KH: If the monks had said the ear was located in the toe I would have had a very confused notion of what they meant by `hearing.' I would have wondered if they were talking about some kind of tactile consciousness. But they didn't say that, they said it was located inside the head near the external ear. And so I know exactly which type of consciousness they are talking about. I think that's the only reason they commentaries raise the subject. I certainly don't require them to agree exactly with modern science. So if the hairs they described turned out to be white instead of tawny coloured that wouldn't bother me at all. Similarly, I don't care if they were mistaken about the heart. It's an easy mistake. Some scientists today still think the heart is *a* source of consciousness (if not the main one). I heard just this week a scientist saying there were two bases, the heart and the stomach (and the digestive system was, in a way, consciously operated). Ken H #124809 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi again Robert K, Just to clear up my typo: the scientist I heard this week on a TV program said the two bases of consciousness were the *brain* and the stomach, not the heart and the stomach. KH #124810 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 5:53 pm Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, all, > > > >RE: I disagree that there is an empirical experience called >"choice." > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Here is another example: Decide to think word "Peter" or "Paul" 5 times right now. You have sufficient conditions to do either one of those. If there is decision to think either one of them, nothing normally stops you from doing it right now. > > > >I think there is a whole series of experiences that you are glossing >together and calling "choice" which is a conceptual act. > >I don't think that there's such a thing as "choice" that actually >takes place. > >============================== > > Do the above exercise that I've said. If we don't agree on such an empiric fact, then we probably should stop discussing this issue. We're not discussing in the same terms, so maybe we should drop the thread. I'm talking about what actually happens, not whether there is a sense of "choice" or not. That's already obvious, but it doesn't explain how it really takes place. > >I would never deny that there is conventional experience of choice. >So what? It is a false imagination that never takes place, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > So conventional experience is false imagination and highly abstract things (which people don't naturally perceive) is true? The conventional experience of "choice" is a false construct. Just because people think things, doesn't mean they are true. > If you ask people down the street what they experience, they will use what you call "conventional speech" with lots of "concepts". Yup, they do, and guess what? They are also not enlightened, and so are in a state of delusion. Do you or do you not agree with that? Otherwise it's kind of ridiculous to keep citing what "ordinary people think" as a guide to what actually exists. > It is funny how they cognize what doesn't exist and when it comes to paramattha dhammas, we have to learn them, and since we are so deluded, it apparently will take many aeons for us to see paramattha dhammas - the only existing "reality".... If you don't believe that, it's fine with me. I'm not sure what the final truth is about anything, but I do know that concepts don't deal with what is actually taking place, and any sociologist or psychologist can tell you that. You don't have to be an Abhidhammika to know that our thoughts about reality are way off. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #124811 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are aeons of accumulations stored? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 9-jun-2012, om 0:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I said "only citta that may condition the present citta is the > proximate one that has just ceased" . So in that way there is > continuity. What idea I question is the existence of some sort of > trans-temporal store-house to which accumulations go and from where > influences to current citta come from. ------- N: All accumulations are contained in each citta. As you say the previous citta conditions the next one and, thus, accumulated inclinations are as it were carried on from citta to citta. No store house. Anantara paccaya, proximate condition, is not the only condition. There is kamma-condition, conditioning vipaaka, and also natural decisive support condition. Without the latter kamma could not produce result. ----- Nina. #124812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 6:16 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 3. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha knew all phenomena as they really are: impermanent, dukkha and non-self. He knew the arising and falling away of all realities which appear through the doorways of the senses and the mind-door. For fortyfive years he taught the development of the Path that is mindfulness and understanding of nåma and rúpa. He taught about the following: the eye, seeing and visible object, the ear, hearing and sound, the nose, smelling and odour, the tongue, tasting and flavour, the bodysense, the experience of tangible object and tangible object, the mind, the experience of mental objects and mental objects. During our pilgrimage to the holy places we talked about the eye, seeing and visible object; the ear, hearing and sound, and about the other realities appearing through the different doorways., in order to have right understanding of them. We had many conversations about this subject and at such moments we were reminded to consider the different nåmas and rúpas that appeared. We talked about mindfulness and the way to know oneself; about different defilements such as jealousy and stinginess and the way to eliminate them. We had Dhamma conversations at airports, in the train, in the bus, in hotels, gardens and parcs, and during our picnics in fields and woods. We had conversations in the morning, in the afternoon and at night time. While we were in the train, on the way to Bodhgaya, it happened to be “Uposatha Day”, a day when the “Påìimokkha” or the Disciplinary code is recited before the community of monks and when devout laypeople visit the temples where they sometimes stay overnight, listening to the Dhamma and observing eight precepts. Since we were on the way to Boddhgaya we thought that having a Dhamma conversation and studying and considering realities would be an excellent way of paying respect to the Buddha. Seated in one compartment of the train, our group consisted of Venerable Dhammadharo, Venerable Jetanando, Acharn Sujin, three other Thai ladies, Jonothan Abbot, Sally, an Israelian, and myself. We had not planned to talk the whole night, but the conditions were such that we lived from moment to moment and did not pay any attention to time. Thus, we did not think of sleep, food or drink. While we were discussing Dhamma time went by unnoticed and before we knew it was morning. We were approaching Gaya. A very thoughtful lady, Khun Kesinee, had prepared food for Venerable Dhammadharo and Venerable Jetanando and also for all of us. The monk has to reflect wisely while eating. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (I, 2, Discourse on All the Cankers): “Wisely reflective, he uses food not for sport, not for indulgence, not for personal charm, not for beautification, but just enough for the support and sustenance of the body, for keeping it unharmed, for furthering the Brahma-faring...” For us, laypeople, eating is mostly motivated by lobha. Being present while monks are having a meal reminds us that the purpose of food does not necessarily have to be enjoyment. Instead of akusala cittas there can be kusala cittas that consider food as a medicine for the body, or kusala cittas with mindfulness. We should remember the Buddha’s words to be mindful in all circumstances, also while eating. ******** Nina. #124813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 8-jun-2012, om 18:59 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > any elaboration by the commentaries in respect to: > ''And they, Ananda, who shall die while they, with believing heart, > are > journeying on such pilgrimage, shall be reborn after death, when the > body shall dissolve, in the happy realms of heaven." > --------- N: With believing heart, with saddhaa, confidence. It is not easy to know its characteristic. When we feel delight about the Dhamma, it may be rapture, piiti. In order to understand saddhaa, we have to think of the purifying gem that purifies muddy water. Saddhaa accompanies each kusala citta, it is actually the purity of kusala. There are many degrees of it. It is one of the five indriyas that have to be developed so that they can become powers, balas. It develops together with right understanding of nama and rupa. Those who have confidence in the Triple Gem also develop the way leading to the end of defilements. The saddhaa of the sotaapanna is unshakable, it has become a power. The sotaapanna cannot have an unhappy rebirth anymore. When we read the text quoted above, we have to think of strong saddhaa. The text emphasizes that it is great kusala to go on a pilgrimage with firm saddhaa. Text of the commentary (taken from "The Buddha's last Days", Yang-Gyu An. p. 154): by one who has faith (pasada). N: The word pasada stands for confidence and for purity. co: co: < Those which should cause religious feeling: Those which produce awe...> The term samvega is used: sense of urgency. Co: < He shows that if people set out with the intention of worshipping a shrine at a certain monastery, even if they should die with thoughts of tranquil faith, they will surely reach heaven without impediment.> ------- Nina. #124814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 7:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How do new dhammas form? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 8-jun-2012, om 17:00 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > >N:When we think of the world, we think of a whole, of a > >collection >of things. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Isn't idea of "parts" (that make up the whole) conceptual as well? > ------- N: We may think of nama and rupa and then we think of concepts that represent realities. Nama and rupa arise and fall away all the time and where is the whole they could form? Nowhere to be found. Nama and rupa have already gone when we think of them. ------- > > >N: This is not a reality that can be directly experienced, we > >can only think of it. It is a concept. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A: Isn't thinking, an experience of some sort? If one asks an > ordinary person what s/he is experiencing, then that person might > talk about a lot of concepts. Surely those concepts are part of > experience, as mere thinking, but still, experience. > ------- N: Thinking is an experience, but the objects thinking experiences may be true or false. We can experience objects with ignorance or with understanding. ------ Nina. #124815 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 10:48 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E: > > --- > > RE: In other words, you don't consider it correct or necessary to use relations between items of Dhammic experience as referents for conventional "real-world" understanding, for which you would consult science [brain as conventional seat of consciousness] rather than Dhamma [heart as seat of consciousness.] Do I read you correctly? > --- > > KH; Yes that is the way I see it. I don't think an enlightened being would necessarily have a good conventional scientific knowledge. > > I think that would include knowledge of bodily organs. I don't believe an arahant would necessarily know which bodily organ was the source of consciousness. > > ------- Dear Kenh There, that wasn't so hard was it! Why not expand and explain more of your ideas about what the ancients were confused about. For instance, do you think a frog could be instantly reborn in a deav world, or as a human? Or should we look to science and evoloution to explain that? I am perfectly happy for you not to agree with vast swathes of the Commentaries and suttas, just so long as you admit to it; otherwise confusions arise when you claim to fully follow the Theravada (while still having some strong reservations about many aspects). robert #124816 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How do new dhammas form? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/8/2012 5:16:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: The idea of a set of dhammas seems not so clear to me. It may be a concept we can only think of. ============================= Nina, what is a kalapa if not a set of dhammas? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124817 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 11:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat jonoabb Hi Rob E (124680) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: OK, so your definition of meditation is: "Any mental exercise or technique prescribed by the Buddha for giving rise to kusala mental states (including insight) thereby leading to the development of those mental states." > > > > You might be interested in the following definition of `meditation' which I came across recently: "The methodical effort to tame and master the mind and to develop its capacity for calm and insight". > > > > This seems similar to your own definition, with the substitution of `methodical effort' for `mental exercise or technique'. > > > > Any further thoughts or comments? > > It's similar but has more of a sense of force or control, which is not what I would advocate. I think that regular practice has its effect because of its design, [®Buddha] not because of "effort" or any kind of will or force. But if you were to substitute "regular practice" for "methodical effort" I think it would be close, but not conclusive. > > I would want to leave room for practice that is not done methodically or continuously as well. > =============== J: But surely any form of `practice' involves `methodical effort'? There is a decision to practice, and the carrying out of certain prescribed activities to the exclusion of any other. Jon #124818 From: Lukas Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 11:18 pm Subject: Broken heart? szmicio Dear friends, I am tottaly broken down. Best wishes Lukas p.s By the way I finally met Alan in London. That was very nice meeting, for a while I felt better but now I am depressed. I am staying alone monastery, and I dont know if I should come back home. #124819 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 11:24 pm Subject: The Brahmin “Moon Disk†yawares1 Dear Members, This Saturday at 5:30AM I went out walking meditation, the moon was shining not so bright. A story came into my mind, please let me share with you all. ************* Thera Candabha: The Brahmin “Moon Disk†[From Bhikkhu Pesala and Daw Mya Tin] While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (413) of this book, with reference to Thera Candabha. Candabha had, in a previous existence,in the time of the Buddha Kassapa offered red sandalwood in the form of a moon disk to the shrine of the Buddha Kassapa that was built when he attained parinibbÄna. Due to this meritorious deed, when he was reborn in a brahmin family in Savatthi,during the time of the Buddha Gotama.He was born with a distinguishing mark, viz., a circle of light radiating from around his navel. As this circle of light resembled the moon he came to be known as Candabha(Moon Disk). Some brahmins, taking advantage of this unusual feature, put him on a cart and took him round the town for exhibition and only those who paid a hundred or a thousand were allowed to touch him. On one occasion, they stopped at a place between the town and the Jetavana monastery. To ariyas going to the Jetavana monastery, they said, 'What is the use of your going to the Buddha and listening to his discourses? There is no one who is as powerful as Candabha. One who touches him will get rich; why don't you come and see ?" The ariyas then said to them, "Only our teacher is powerful; he is unrivalled and matchless." Then the brahmins took Candabha to the Jetavana monastery to compete with the Buddha. But when Candabha was in the presence of the Buddha, the ring of light went out by itself. When Candabha was taken out of sight of the Buddha, the ring of light returned automatically; it again disappeared when taken back to the presence of the Buddha. Candabha then asked the Buddha to give him the mantra (words of incantation) that would make the ring of light disappear from around his navel. The Buddha told him that the mantra could be given only to a member of his Order. Candabha told the brahmins that he was getting a mantra from the Buddha and that after mastering the mantra he would be the greatest person in the whole of Jambudipa. So the brahmins waited outside the monastery. Meanwhile, Candabha became a bhikkhu. He was instructed to contemplate the body, i.e., to reflect on the repulsiveness and impurity of the thirty-two constituents of the body. Within a few days, Candabha attained arahatship. When the brahmins who were waiting outside the monastery came to enquire whether he had acquired the mantra, Candabha replied. "You people had better go back now; as for me I am no longer in a position to go along with you." Other bhikkhus, hearing him, went to the Buddha and said, "Candabha is falsely claiming that he has become an arahat." To them the Buddha replied, "Candabha speaks the truth; he has eradicated all moral intoxicants." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: A Saint is Pure Who is spotless as the moon, who is pure, serene, and unperturbed, Who has destroyed craving for becoming â€" I call a Saint.413 *************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares/sirikanya [:heart:] #124820 From: Lukas Date: Sat Jun 9, 2012 11:52 pm Subject: Extract's from meeting with Alan szmicio Dear friends, I am a bit broken down, but I will give some short points from meeting with Alan in London. As I remember them. That was very inspiring to met such a person with such profound faith into Dhamma. Even I was for a while in buddhist monasteries the last times, I couldnt come across a deep Dhamma. I asked a question on 4 satipatthanas, what is awarness of 4th satipatthana, dhammanupassana. Alan wasnt sure for that time, and he said this is probably awarness of all dhammas. Also we talked a lot on no control and awarness. I mentioned that I see a lot of strong attachements in my life recently, like love and that I feel that is a hindrance to awarness for me, that I cannot be aware. He mentioned that is not true cause sati is anatta and it cannot be controled, but we can understand that. I insisted that it's still looks like a great hindrance to awarness. He said there is really no controller and everything is conditioned and no one there to change. I said that this love to a person is still so big hindrance, and that Khun Sujin always says that attachement is an hindrance, and that what acctualy makes awarness not to arise. So I asked maybe I shall live more secluded life and not go into all this worldly attachements? He said: That awarness can be aware of any reality. And WE must be aware of any reality now.. Any now. this was very inspiring to hear. I asked how to be more brave to be aware of hering,seeing now, because there is all the time the world of people and things and I think a lot of them, and sometimes I think like what they think of me etc.. His point in general was always no control. I asked that Buddha taught , the realities, the 5 khandas are anatta, out of control, not a concepts, and whether is it good, since I dont know realities now, to understand a concepts a situations as they are anatta. I ment that gross level of understanding. He said yes even this is very good. Cause panna develops naturaly in daily life, and it must be accumulated so slowly, even on that level, so afterwards it brings more and more understanding of realities. I said that I sometimes doubt that this gross kind, intelectuall understanding, will bring awarness and understanding of realities. Alan all the time emphesis that there is no control of anything, of anything in life. I asked about love and strong attachements again and my tendency to drinking and anger, that is very harmful to me and so strong. But he says: It cannot be changed, there is no control over that, and what we do is just live our normal life. I again asked if maybe I shall try to have less worldy attachements. He said once at least you will get understanding what is harmful, but I think he meant by that the understanding of anattaness is much more important. So the point was if this gross level of understanding is good. He says yes, cause panna must be developed. I told I dont understand realities, as visible object, seeing etc. We talk about reading listening, considering dhammas in life as a condition to that. He mentioned if I read jatakas, and that he finds it very good reminder for him in life. He caled them simple stories. At the end we talked about Ven Dhammadharo and Acharn Sujin as an inspiration and how they're in daily lifes. It was very inspiring to hear more, private details of them. Best wishes Lukas #124821 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:05 am Subject: Re: Extract's from meeting with Alan rjkjp1 Thanks Lukas! So nice to hear from you about Alan's suberb understanding. I have never met Alan , only spioken on the phone - 18 years ago! I hope to meet both of you one day.. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear friends, > I am a bit broken down, but I will give some short points from meeting with Alan in London. As I remember them. That was very inspiring to met such a person with such profound faith into Dhamma. Even I was for a while in buddhist monasteries the last times, I couldnt come across a deep Dhamma. > > I asked a question on 4 satipatthanas, what is awarness of 4th satipatthana, dhammanupassana. Alan wasnt sure for that time, and he said this is probably awarness of all dhammas. > > Also we talked a lot on no control and awarness. I mentioned that I see a lot of strong attachements in my life recently, like love and that I feel that is a hindrance to awarness for me, that I cannot be aware. He mentioned that is not true cause sati is anatta and it cannot be controled, but we can understand that. I insisted that it's still looks like a great hindrance to awarness. He said there is really no controller and everything is conditioned and no one there to change. I said that this love to a person is still so big hindrance, and that Khun Sujin always says that attachement is an hindrance, and that what acctualy makes awarness not to arise. So I asked maybe I shall live more secluded life and not go into all this worldly attachements? He said: That awarness can be aware of any reality. And WE must be aware of any reality now.. Any now. this was very inspiring to hear. I asked how to be more brave to be aware of hering,seeing now, because > there is all the time the world of people and things and I think a lot of them, and sometimes I think like what they think of me etc.. His point in general was always no control. I asked that Buddha taught , the realities, the 5 khandas are anatta, out of control, not a concepts, and whether is it good, since I dont know realities now, to understand a concepts a situations as they are anatta. I ment that gross level of understanding. He said yes even this is very good. Cause panna develops naturaly in daily life, and it must be accumulated so slowly, even on that level, so afterwards it brings more and more understanding of realities. I said that I sometimes doubt that this gross kind, intelectuall understanding, will bring awarness and understanding of realities. Alan all the time emphesis that there is no control of anything, of anything in life. I asked about love and strong attachements again and my tendency to drinking and anger, that is very > harmful to me and so strong. But he says: It cannot be changed, there is no control over that, and what we do is just live our normal life. I again asked if maybe I shall try to have less worldy attachements. He said once at least you will get understanding what is harmful, but I think he meant by that the understanding of anattaness is much more important. So the point was if this gross level of understanding is good. He says yes, cause panna must be developed. > I told I dont understand realities, as visible object, seeing etc. > We talk about reading listening, considering dhammas in life as a condition to that. He mentioned if I read jatakas, and that he finds it very good reminder for him in life. He caled them simple stories. > > At the end we talked about Ven Dhammadharo and Acharn Sujin as an inspiration and how they're in daily lifes. It was very inspiring to hear more, private details of them. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > #124822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How do new dhammas form? nilovg Hi Howard and Alex, Op 9-jun-2012, om 14:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: The idea of a set of dhammas seems not so clear to me. It may be a > concept we can only think of. > ============================= > H:Nina, what is a kalapa if not a set of dhammas? ------ N: Ah, did he mean that? I stumbled over the word set. O.K. Alex wondered whether a kalapa of dhammas can create another kalapa? Then we better use examples. Say, we have the eight inseparable dhammas consisting of the four great Elements and in addition colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. When this is a kalapa in the body it is originated by kamma or citta or temperature or nutrition. One kalapa falls away and so long as there are conditions there is another kalapa originating from one of the four factors. We cannot say that one kalapa creates another kalapa. Neither can we say that kalapas succeed one another. ------ Nina. #124823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Broken heart? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 9-jun-2012, om 15:18 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > By the way I finally met Alan in London. That was very nice > meeting, for a while I felt better but now I am depressed. I am > staying alone monastery, and I dont know if I should come back home. ------ N: Thank you for the extracts of the talks with Alan, very good. Coming home? Yes, lead your normal daily life, a monastery is not your home. Our normal daily life: taking care of daily things, like members of your family, a job. I do not know the situation in Poland, but it would be good if you find some work. This means responsibilities, not being dependent on others, that is the layman's life. It will leave less time to think of worries. Very ordinary. But possible to develop right understanding in any situation. ------ Nina. #124824 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How do new dhammas form? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/9/2012 10:06:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Alex, Op 9-jun-2012, om 14:49 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > N: The idea of a set of dhammas seems not so clear to me. It may be a > concept we can only think of. > ============================= > H:Nina, what is a kalapa if not a set of dhammas? ------ N: Ah, did he mean that? I stumbled over the word set. O.K. Alex wondered whether a kalapa of dhammas can create another kalapa? ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: (I'm not sure what Alex was asserting.) I merely saw your assertion "The idea of a set of dhammas seems not so clear to me. It may be a concept we can only think of," and that made me think of kalapas as particular collections of rupas put forward in the commentaries. They do seem to be afforded some degree of actuality in Theravada, do they not? -------------------------------------------------------- Then we better use examples. Say, we have the eight inseparable dhammas consisting of the four great Elements and in addition colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. When this is a kalapa in the body it is originated by kamma or citta or temperature or nutrition. One kalapa falls away and so long as there are conditions there is another kalapa originating from one of the four factors. We cannot say that one kalapa creates another kalapa. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I agree with that (as regards "creating"), though some kalapas might serve among the conditions for others, might they not? Rupas do serve as conditions for rupas, don't they? (For example heat being a condition for motion? And vice-versa?) -------------------------------------------------------- Neither can we say that kalapas succeed one another. ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I'm not clear on your point here, Nina. ---------------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124825 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. moellerdieter Dear Nina , thanks for the feedback. I am still thinking about ' ''And they, Ananda, who shall die while they, with believing heart, > are > journeying on such pilgrimage, shall be reborn after death' Clear to me would have been ' And they even if they should die ' (co.quote) ...while they are journeying'. For example a devout Buddhist in a situation being terminally ill may try to let death happen during the pilgrimage. I suppose DN 16 is the only passage in which the Buddha refered to the pilgrimage and the Pali translation is probably correct.. but I still wonder whether this is what the Buddha meant to say. with Metta Dieter #124826 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:51 am Subject: Re: Broken heart? szmicio Dear Nina, > N: Thank you for the extracts of the talks with Alan, very good. L: If I remind myself more I will write. Alan said me a good stories from Acharn visiting England. Very inspiring. > Coming home? Yes, lead your normal daily life, a monastery is not > your home. Our normal daily life: taking care of daily things, like > members of your family, a job. I do not know the situation in Poland, > but it would be good if you find some work. L: Nina, the problem is quite hard environment in a town a live. My friends there. Best wishes Lukas #124827 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:48 am Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >RE:I'm talking about what actually happens, not whether there is a >sense of "choice" or not. That's already obvious, but it doesn't >explain how it really takes place. >================================================== Are we omniscient? Can we really know everything about this? Or do we have experience that is actually experienced? What truly matters? If, by some miracle, a past situation would re-occur, could a person make a different possible choice? We can't know for sure. We can reasonably guess that "if all conditions are identical, the choice will be identical". But without omniscience, we can only guess. There can be things that we are simply not aware of (and may never be aware off due to peculiarities of the mind). With best wishes, Alex #124828 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are aeons of accumulations stored? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >Alex to RobE:I said "only citta that may condition the present citta >is the proximate one that has just ceased" . So in that way there is >continuity. What idea I question is the existence of some sort of >trans-temporal store-house to which accumulations go and from where >influences to current citta come from. >-------------------------------------------------------- >N:All accumulations are contained in each citta. As you say the >previous citta conditions the next one and, thus, accumulated >inclinations are as it were carried on from citta to citta. No >store >house. Anantara paccaya, proximate condition, is not the only >condition. There is kamma-condition, conditioning vipaaka, and also >natural decisive support condition. Without the latter kamma could >not produce result. >================================ While it is true that some conditions produce results long after, they are somehow to be carried over from moment to moment in order to produce results. Right? With best wishes, Alex #124829 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > I would want to leave room for practice that is not done methodically or continuously as well. > > =============== > > J: But surely any form of `practice' involves `methodical effort'? There is a decision to practice, and the carrying out of certain prescribed activities to the exclusion of any other. Well I wouldn't doubt that practice has an intentional element, and has certain prescribed activities or principles that are being developed, but I don't think that all practice has to be "the carrying out of certain prescribed activities to the exclusion of any other." There are more than one way to practice anything, in terms of approach and in terms of how much it is planned or prescribed or exclusive of other things. I have done practice with a very specific regimen and I have done practice where I just sat down and said "let's see what happens" and having already known some of the principles, there was some mechanism involved which I had no direct guidance over, so I really can't give a conclusive answer to "what is practice" as an overall decisive definition. The same is true for other things that are "practiced," there are a variety of approaches. Certainly, if you want to develop a specific skill you have to be methodical and do what is prescribed to develop that skill. I'm just saying that is not the only way to develop skill and not the only way to engage a developmental practice. My daughter goes around singing all the time, and she has a natural gift for singing. She's never had a singing lesson and her singing just develops by singing. I understand that is true of Barbra Streisand too - she had one singing lesson and the singing teacher told her to stop what she was doing and take a different approach and she walked out and never took another lesson, knowing instinctively that her way of singing was beyond that of the teachers. I suppose there might be an analogy for that in Dhamma practice too, for those who have a gift for it. So I don't really know what the range of possibilities really is. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #124830 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:23 am Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, all, > > >RE:I'm talking about what actually happens, not whether there is a >sense of "choice" or not. That's already obvious, but it doesn't >explain how it really takes place. > >================================================== > > Are we omniscient? Can we really know everything about this? Or do we have experience that is actually experienced? What truly matters? What matters, for one thing, is not to harbor an illusion of choice without understanding what we may be actually talking about it. Calling it "experience" does not create a panacea by which anything you think magically becomes true. You have to understand how it works in order to justify it, otherwise it's better, as you say, to say "I don't know" and either look into it further or accept it as an unknown. > If, by some miracle, a past situation would re-occur, could a person make a different possible choice? We can't know for sure. I know for sure that the above is a false thought experiment. In both cases, the first time, and the next time, it would depend on the full conglomeration of conditions for the choice to be made. It's not a question of will, or whim, or tossing a coin. Conditions rule the day. > We can reasonably guess that "if all conditions are identical, the choice will be identical". But without omniscience, we can only guess. There can be things that we are simply not aware of (and may never be aware off due to peculiarities of the mind). Well then we shouldn't assume that "choice" takes place, when there is nothing about us that we have any control over. Sure you can think of lifting your hand and lift your hand, but only at a particular time under particular circumstances. At other times you wouldn't have the thought or wouldn't be able to do it. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #124831 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:35 pm Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? truth_aerator Hello RobertE, Lets say, for example, that something bad or difficult has occurred. Should one respond in ordinary (akusala) way - or should one attempt to understand the situation (from Dhamma POV), react as appropriately as possible, and learn from it? With best wishes, Alex #124832 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:47 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert K, --- <. . .> > RK: There, that wasn't so hard was it! Why not expand and explain more of your ideas about what the ancients were confused about. --- KH: Thank you, I would be glad to. They weren't confused about anything. The Theras knew the conceptual world was a vast, directionless ocean in which nothing was inherently one thing or another. They would never have mixed conventional rality with absolute reality. They would never have said bodily organs (or any other concepts) possessed absolutely real characteristics. (If they had said such things they could have been easily pinned down in common, worldly debates. They could have been asked, for example, how starfish and jellyfish (sentient beings with neither blood nor hearts) posessed consciousness.) -------- > RK: For instance, do you think a frog could be instantly reborn in a deav world, or as a human? Or should we look to science and evoloution to explain that? -------- KH: I think you are asking "According to the Dhamma, is a frog (a sentient being) reborn? Is it not reborn? Is it both reborn and not reborn? Is it neither born nor not reborn?" I think the answers in the suttas to that kind of question are along the lines of, `The rebirth citta arises dependent on past kamma . . ." ---------- > RK: I am perfectly happy for you not to agree with vast swathes of the Commentaries and suttas, just so long as you admit to it; otherwise confusions arise when you claim to fully follow the Theravada (while still having some strong reservations about many aspects). ----------- KH: You and I both claim not to have any reservations about the commentaries; we just understand them differently. Ken H #124833 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:43 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 4. nilovg Dear friends, During that night in the train we talked about the misunderstandings that may arise concerning the development of vipassanå. We discussed sati, mindfulness, and the fact that one erroneously may take for sati what is merely thinking about realities. For example, we may take for direct awareness of hardness or sound what is merely noticing them and thinking about them. When there is a short moment of noticing a reality without thinking we may mistakenly believe that that is sati. There is still an idea of “I am noticing a reality”. This night’s discussion greatly helped me to see my misunderstandings. Acharn Sujin reminded us that we may believe that we have a great deal of awareness already while we are merely have intellectual understanding about nåma and rúpa. Intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa can condition direct understanding and mindfulness of them later on, but mindfulness cannot be directed, it arises because of its own conditions. Also sati is non-self. It is necessary to often discuss what sati is and what its object is. During that night we also considered the Buddha’s perfections he had to accumulate during many lives in order to become a Sammåsambuddha: a person who discovers the truth and attains enlightenment without the help of any teacher and who is able to teach others the Path leading to enlightenment. The fact that the Buddha attained Budhahood in Bodhgaya while sitting under the Bodhi-tree could not have occurred without the right conditions. How could he have become an omniscient Buddha without having cultivated sati and wisdom in countless previous lives when he was a Bodhisatta? The perfections (påramí) the Buddha fulfilled can be classified as follows: generosity (dåna) morality (síla) renunciation (nekkhamma) wisdom (paññå) energy (viriya) patience (khanti) truthfulness (sacca) resolution (aditthåna) loving kindness (mettå) equanimity (upekkhå) According to the “Visuddhimagga” (Ch IX, 124) the four “brahma vihåras” (divine abidings) which are loving kindness (mettå), compassion (karunå), altruistic joy (muditå) and equanimity (upekkhå) bring the ten “påramís” to perfection. We read: “For the Great Beings’ minds retain their balance by giving preference to beings’ welfare, by dislike of beings’ suffering, by desire for the various successes achieved by beings to last, and by impartiality towards all beings 1). And to all beings they give gifts, which are a source of pleasure, without discrimination thus: ’It must be given to this one; it must not be given to this one.’ And in order to avoid doing harm to beings they undertake the precepts of virtue. They practise renunciation for the purpose of perfecting their virtue. They cleanse their understanding for the purpose of non-confusion about what is good and bad for beings. They constantly arouse energy, having beings’ welfare and happiness at heart. When they have acquired heroic fortitude through supreme energy, they become patient with beings’ many kinds of faults. They do not deceive when promising ‘We shall give you this; we shall do this for you’. They are unshakably resolute upon beings’ welfare and happiness. Through unshakable loving kindness they place them first (before themselves). Through equanimity they expect no reward...” --------- 1) These are the four brahma-vihaaras. ------- Nina. #124834 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:50 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, (Nina & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > By the way I finally met Alan in London. That was very nice meeting, for a while I felt better but now I am depressed. I am staying alone monastery, and I dont know if I should come back home. ... S: Alan also wrote and told me (off-list) that you had had a very good meeting and that you were very keen and interested in the Dhamma. Lukas, wherever we are, we live alone, just so very alone with the citta arising now. As Nina mentioned recently, understanding is the only island in samsara. We always think that if X were present, if we were in another place, if, if, if......all would be well. This is just thinking in ignorance. The only way to have less fear, less agitation, more contentment is to understand more about what appears now. Seeing consciousness now is just an element. Visible object is just an element. All dhammas are just elements and that's all there are. Why cling and be so distressed about elements which arise and pass away instantly? As I mentioned (off-list), take joy in the Dhamma and dhamma understanding - now! The problems all come down to the thinking with ignorance and attachment now. I hope you can meet Alan again soon - nice for both of you to have some live dhamma discussion. Most of us are surrounded by people with no interest in the Dhamma - it doesn't matter at all. When the understanding is firm, it can't be touched or swayed by other views. Btw, this is a link to the article I wrote a long time ago on "Love and Attachment" which Nina suggested you and others might like to read: http://archive.org/details/LoveAndAttachment **** Nina, btw, we met up with Jessica and two of her friends today at the beach and for lunch to have Abhidhamma discussions. They'd just studied an intensive one month course (in Hong Kong) with Dr Mehm Tin Mon on Abhidhamma, based no the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. He obviously speaks very well and there was a large attendance. Apparently, however, his views on practice are very similar to those of Pa Uk Sayadaw with an idea that each citta can be directly known in a process, jhanas - easy, abhinnas and so on!! Metta Sarah ====== #124835 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 9-jun-2012, om 16:56 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I am still thinking about ' ''And they, Ananda, who shall die while > they, with believing heart, > are > journeying on such pilgrimage, > shall be reborn after death' > Clear to me would have been ' And they even if they should die > ' (co.quote) ...while they are journeying'. > For example a devout Buddhist in a situation being terminally ill > may try to let death happen during the pilgrimage. > > ---------- > N: It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond control. "Trying" to let death happen: is this with "a believing heart", with great saddhaa? If lobha is involved, wishing for oneself a good rebirth, there is akusala citta. No great saddhaa. I do not question the text, it just shows that a pilgrimage with kusala intention is very valuable. ------ Nina. #124836 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: Re: Extract's from meeting with Alan sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Many thanks for your excellent report! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > Also we talked a lot on no control and awarness. I mentioned that I see a lot of strong attachements in my life recently, like love and that I feel that is a hindrance to awarness for me, that I cannot be aware. He mentioned that is not true cause sati is anatta and it cannot be controled, but we can understand that. ... S: At our meeting today, we emphasized just the same points - dhammas as anatta and beyond control. Everyone would like to change aspects of personality, realities arising and so on, but the path is about understanding and detachment towards those dhammas conditioned already now. I remember a time when Alan was asking us about whether he should get married and raising some of the same points. We answered in just the way he has now answered to you. We think about whether we should do A or B and just forget there are only conditioned dhammas now. Life is so much easier, so much simpler when the practice is seen as the natural understanding in daily life. Btw, Rob K - you'll be interested to hear that Alan is about to start a new job teaching physics at a university (as opposed to a school where he's been working). I don't know if there will be any opportunities to introduce any philosophy of science or Buddhism and science courses... He's hoping to get to visit Bkk sometime with his sons.... Metta Sarah ====== #124837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How do new dhammas form? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 9-jun-2012, om 16:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > HCW: > I agree with that (as regards "creating"), though some kalapas might > serve among the conditions for others, might they not? Rupas do > serve as > conditions for rupas, don't they? (For example heat being a > condition for > motion? And vice-versa?) > -------------------------------------------------------- > N: In each kalapa there are the ruupas that are heat and nutrition. > These two are factors that can produce new ruupas, but they have to > be ruupas of the body. In this sense you are right, ruupa can > condition new ruupa. Not the whole kalapa, just heat or nutrition > present in a kalapa can be a conditioning factor. For example, at rebirth kamma produces groups of ruupa. The temperature or heat present in such a group can, when rebirth- consciousness has fallen away, begin to produce other ruupas. Nutrition, present in a group of ruupas, can produce other ruupas and again nutrition in such a group can in its turn produce other ruupas. In this way, when we have taken food on one day, it can sustain the body for a week. -------- > N: Neither can we say that > kalapas succeed one another. > ------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I'm not clear on your point here, Nina. ------ N: Of cittas it is true that the falling away of one citta is a condition by way of proximity, immediate succession without any interval, for the following one. This is only true for citta, not for ruupa. There is no proximity- condition for ruupa. The falling away of one ruupa is not the condition for the immediate succession of a following one. #124838 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:22 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > --- > <. . .> > > RK: There, that wasn't so hard was it! > Why not expand and explain more of your ideas about what the ancients were confused about. > --- > > KH: Thank you, I would be glad to. They weren't confused about anything. The Theras knew the conceptual world was a vast, directionless ocean in which nothing was inherently one thing or another. They would never have mixed conventional rality with absolute reality. They would never have said bodily organs (or any other concepts) possessed absolutely real characteristics. > > (If they had said such things they could have been easily pinned down in common, worldly debates. They could have been asked, for example, how starfish and jellyfish (sentient beings with neither blood nor hearts) posessed consciousness.) > > -------- Dear Kenh In your prior post you said: > > RE: In other words, you don't consider it correct or necessary to use relations between items of Dhammic experience as referents for conventional "real-world" understanding, for which you would consult science [brain as conventional seat of consciousness] rather than Dhamma [heart as seat of consciousness.] Do I read you correctly? > --- > > KH; Yes that is the way I see it. I don't think an enlightened being would necessarily have a good conventional scientific knowledge. > > I think that would include knowledge of bodily organs. I don't believe an arahant would necessarily know which bodily organ was the source of consciousness. > > ------- And you said/implied that you thought that in fact the brain was where consciouness arose. ______________________________________ Your write that " KEN: They would never have mixed conventional rality with absolute reality. They would never have said bodily organs (or any other concepts) possessed absolutely real characteristics. (If they had said such things they could have been easily pinned down in common, worldly debates.They could have been asked, for example, how starfish and jellyfish ) Don't you think they are being specific here in the visuddhimagga: Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. It is assisted by the primaries with their functions of upholding, etc.; it is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; and it serves as physical basis for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element, and for the states associated with them.2 Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofah gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.>> Did they make a mistake, or people like me are misunderstanding them, and in fact what they meant was that the heart base lies in teh brain? >KH: You and I both claim not to have any reservations about the >commentaries; we >just understand them differently. yes and one of us is very, very wrong. If it is me who is deluded and lost let's get it settled. I would invite sarah and jon , phil, scott and Nina to comment on this and help sort out these wrong views of mine. robert #124839 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > > -------- > > RK: For instance, do you think a frog could be instantly reborn in a deav world, or as a human? Or should we look to science and evoloution to explain that? > -------- > > KH: I think you are asking "According to the Dhamma, is a frog (a sentient being) reborn? Is it not reborn? Is it both reborn and not reborn? Is it neither born nor not reborn?" > > I think the answers in the suttas to that kind of question are along the lines of, `The rebirth citta arises dependent on past kamma . . ." > > ++++++++++++ Here is the story (by Buddhaghosa)i the commentary to teh Vimanavatthu: In the time of the Buddha, a frog listened to the voice of the Buddha preaching a sermon to a human audience. The frog was absorbed in the dhamma. Then a cowherd came upon the scene and being deeply impressed by the Buddha's splendour in delivering the sermon and the faithful audience, he stood there leaning on his staff. He was not aware that his staff was resting on the frog's head. The frog died on the spot while it was absorbed in the sweet voice of the Dhamma. And it was reborn in the Tavatimsa Deva World. (Verses 857 – 860, Vimanavatthu Pali; Manduka­devaputta­vimana­vatthu, Vimanavatthu-atthakatha, Khuddaka-nikaya) In this story the frog was reborn as a deity (deva), because of its good deeds, mainly because of its attention to the voice of the Buddha or the voice of dhamma. Although in reality, the frog could not understand the meaning of the sermon, but it recognised the voice of harmlessness. It could rejoice in the soothing voice of the great Buddha""" is that what you meant? robert #124840 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > > pt: Then comes (d) a citta with "understanding of whether the citta is kusala/akusala". What is the object of this citta, since it cannot be a dhamma, nor a concept of a dhamma, nor thoughts in the sense of "reflecting wisely" since we are talking about further stages of samatha development where there's no thinking? Thanks. > ... > S: It can be a dhamma (nimitta) or a concept of a dhamma. Better not to try and "pin-point" the fine-line! :) Yeah, fat chance that advice is going to work for me. I like to think abut this stuff too much. Hopefully in Manly I'll get to bother you some more on this topic. Best wishes pt #124841 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:27 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Hi RobK and KenH, > > Vism. VIII, 111. > This is the heart flesh. >... > Inside it there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed > where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the > mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.>> > RobK: Did they make a mistake, or people like me are misunderstanding them, and in fact what they meant was that the heart base lies in teh brain? < Interesting topic. To perhaps lend some support to both approaches: 1. There was a show on BBC about heart transplants some time ago. Apparently, in some cases the recipients of the heart transplant suddenly started exhibiting habits of the donors, even though the identity of the donors was never revealed to them. Two examples I remember: an older guy who never had any artistic inclinations suddenly started writing poetry after the operation - his donor was a young poet; an older lady suddenly started having cravings for hamburgers and beer after the operation - something her donor (a biker) used to have every day. 2. You have to wonder though what happens during the transplant operation when the original heart is basically removed, and the person is without a heart for some time, while the blood is circulated through the body by pumps. I mean, even though the person is in an induced coma I presume, there would have to be bhavanga cittas arising at the time I guess. So, if the heart is not there anymore, what is the basis for arising of bhavanga cittas? The first thing I thought when reading the Vsm quote about the little hollow in the heart as the "support" for the citta was that this was in fact a focal point for the electromagnetic field around the chest area. So, my pet theory is that it is the field which is in fact what's meant by the "support". Hence, it's not just the heart that's mentioned, but the actual hollow as well. And conveniently, I presume that the field still remains active even when the heart is (temporarily) removed from the body. However, this is probably just another (mis?)interpretation of the commentaries, which you probably aren't very interested in discussing, so I'll let you get back to the more interesting issue - whether concepts such as "physical heart" can actually be true and factual, or not. Best wishes pt #124842 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Dieter) - In a message dated 6/10/2012 5:54:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Dieter, Op 9-jun-2012, om 16:56 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I am still thinking about ' ''And they, Ananda, who shall die while > they, with believing heart, > are > journeying on such pilgrimage, > shall be reborn after death' > Clear to me would have been ' And they even if they should die > ' (co.quote) ...while they are journeying'. > For example a devout Buddhist in a situation being terminally ill > may try to let death happen during the pilgrimage. > > ---------- > N: It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond control. "Trying" to let death happen: is this with "a believing heart", with great saddhaa? If lobha is involved, wishing for oneself a good rebirth, there is akusala citta. No great saddhaa. I do not question the text, it just shows that a pilgrimage with kusala intention is very valuable. ------ Nina. ============================== Nina, you wrote "It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond control." If my memory serves me well, I recall that the Buddha - of course the Buddha wasn't "any old person"! LOL! - could have continued to live had Ananda requested it of him, but instead the Buddha let himself pass away. Am I wrong, Nina? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124843 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How do new dhammas form? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/10/2012 6:08:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: Neither can we say that > kalapas succeed one another. > ------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I'm not clear on your point here, Nina. ------ N: Of cittas it is true that the falling away of one citta is a condition by way of proximity, immediate succession without any interval, for the following one. This is only true for citta, not for ruupa. There is no proximity- condition for ruupa. The falling away of one ruupa is not the condition for the immediate succession of a following one. ================================ Thank you for this clarification! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124844 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:28 pm Subject: The Babyboy In The Floating Pot yawares1 Dear Members, This is an amazing story for such a lovely Sunday morning. I see the rising sun with golden rays that paint the blue sky into beautiful mixed colors beyond words can describe. *************** Jatila : The Babyboy In The Floating Pot [ From Bhikkhu Pesala and Daw Mya Tin ] While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (416) of this book, with reference to Thera Jatila. Soon after the passing away (Parinibbana) of Kassapa Buddha, an arahat thera went round for donations to build a gold stupa where the relics of Kassapa Buddha were to be enshrined. The thera came to the house of a goldsmith while he and his wife were engaged in a heated quarrel. The goldsmith shouted at the thera and said, "You had better thrown your stupa into the water and go away." His wife then said to the goldsmith, "If you are angry with me you should abuse me only; you can even beat me if you like; but why do you have to abuse the Buddha and the thera? Surely, you have done a grievous wrong !" Hearing her words, the goldsmith realized the enormity of the wrong he had done and wanted to make atonement for it. So, he made some gold flowers, put them into three gold pots and offered them to be put into the relic chamber of the stupa of Kassapa Buddha. In his present existence he was conceived in the womb of a millionaire's daughter who had had an illicit love affair. When the babyboy was born, she put it into a pot and floated it down the Ganges River. A lady-disciple of Thera KaccÄna, who was bathing in the river saw the child in the pot and took it with her. She adopted him and named him Jatila because when the baby was bathed his hair became matted.Years later, on the advice of Thera Kaccana the woman sent Jatila to Taxila where he had his education. While at Taxila the thera arranged for him to stay at the house of a merchant who was a disciple of his. In due course, Jatila married the daughter of the merchant. Soon after the marriage, a large mound of gold appeared in the backyard of the house which was newly built for the couple. Three sons were born out of this marriage. After that, Jatila joined the Order and attained arahatship within a few days. On one occasion, as the Buddha went on an alms-round with five hundred bhikkhus including Jatila, they came to the house of the sons of Jatila. His sons offered alms-food to the Buddha and his disciples for fifteen days. Some time afterwards, the bhikkhus asked Jatila whether he was still attached to his mound of gold and his sons, and he answered that he had no more attachment to them. The bhikkhus then said to the Buddha that Jatila was falsely claiming to have attained arahatship. To them the Buddha said, "Bhikkhus! Jatila has got rid of craving and pride; he has indeed attained arahatship." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: A Saint Has Given Up Craving Who in this world giving up craving, would renounce worldly life and become a homeless one, Who has destroyed craving and becoming â€" I call a Saint.416 **************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares/sirikanya #124845 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? philofillet Hi Lukas > > L: Nina, the problem is quite hard environment in a town a live. > My friends there. I know what you mean, Lukas. If uncontrollable conditions hadn't led me away from my hometown I would stil doing drugs with my old friends and maybe dead like my cousin. Who knows whether conditions will lead you back or not? Nobody knows. But there can be conditions for understanding of whatever is unfolding through processes of dhammas. Good luck! Phil #124846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Broken heart? nilovg Dear Sarah, how nice you met Jessica. I am sure there were lively discussions. With the link to you article I cannot do anything, just like other links to Zolag. I can never click the right spot unfortunately. Nina. Op 10-jun-2012, om 11:50 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Btw, this is a link to the article I wrote a long time ago on "Love > and Attachment" #124847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 10-jun-2012, om 14:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you wrote "It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond > control." > If my memory serves me well, I recall that the Buddha - of course the > Buddha wasn't "any old person"! LOL! - could have continued to live > had > Ananda requested it of him, but instead the Buddha let himself pass > away. Am I > wrong, Nina? -------- N: As you said, theBuddha wasn't "any old person"! I would not say he let himself pass away, it was the right time for him. Besides, he had reached the end to rebirth. Nina. #124848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are aeons of accumulations stored? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 9-jun-2012, om 19:52 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > >N:All accumulations are contained in each citta. As you say the > >previous citta conditions the next one and, thus, accumulated > >inclinations are as it were carried on from citta to citta. No > >store >house. Anantara paccaya, proximate condition, is not the > only >condition. There is kamma-condition, conditioning vipaaka, > and also >natural decisive support condition. Without the latter > kamma could >not produce result. > >================================ > > A: While it is true that some conditions produce results long > after, they are somehow to be carried over from moment to moment in > order to produce results. Right? > -------- N: It is more complex, we have to study each of the 24 classes of conditions. When we deal with ruupas producing other ruupas, we cannot speak of carried over from moment to moment. Besides, there are prenascence condition, conascence condition and post-nascence condition. ------ Nina #124849 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/10/2012 9:57:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 10-jun-2012, om 14:49 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you wrote "It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond > control." > If my memory serves me well, I recall that the Buddha - of course the > Buddha wasn't "any old person"! LOL! - could have continued to live > had > Ananda requested it of him, but instead the Buddha let himself pass > away. Am I > wrong, Nina? -------- N: As you said, theBuddha wasn't "any old person"! I would not say he let himself pass away, it was the right time for him. Besides, he had reached the end to rebirth. Nina. ================================== With regard to this matter, one might look at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html) , particularly at the last section of Part 2 and the first 3 sections of Part 3. As regards intentional extending of one's life by ordinary people, it is not rare that a person dying of a terminal illness but anticipating an event that is very important to the person such as an anniversary or a significant birthday or the wedding of one's child, manages to hold onto life until that event occurs, often at the surprise of the person's physician. A mind filled with strong emotion is quite powerful. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124850 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:51 am Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, > > Lets say, for example, that something bad or difficult has occurred. Should one respond in ordinary (akusala) way - or should one attempt to understand the situation (from Dhamma POV), react as appropriately as possible, and learn from it? Kusala is always better, learning is always better, but this question has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Either one has control or not, choice or not, it's not a question of what one would wish for. Of course "we" do the best we can to respond with kusala, not akusala, but the question is whether there is an entity involved that has control over that, and the answer is 'no.' Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #124851 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. moellerdieter Hi Howard and Nina, you wrote: N: As you said, theBuddha wasn't "any old person"! I would not say he let himself pass away, it was the right time for him. Besides, he had reached the end to rebirth. HCW: With regard to this matter, one might look at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html) , particularly at the last section of Part 2 and the first 3 sections of Part 3. D: I was intending to quote that as well ;-) but there is one more interesting passage to consider : " And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!" HCW:As regards intentional extending of one's life by ordinary people, it is not rare that a person dying of a terminal illness but anticipating an event that is very important to the person such as an anniversary or a significant birthday or the wedding of one's child, manages to hold onto life until that event occurs, often at the surprise of the person's physician. A mind filled with strong emotion is quite powerful. D: yes , who has not heard about such special cases..? N:: It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond control. "Trying" to let death happen: is this with "a believing heart", with great saddhaa? If lobha is involved, wishing for oneself a good rebirth, there is akusala citta. No great saddhaa. D: I wrote: For example a devout Buddhist in a situation being terminally ill may try to let death happen during the pilgrimage. I have in mind a more ordinary case : let's us imagine a Buddhist who has been diagnosed with a brain tumor , the physican prognosticates a maximum of certain months still to live . What better can he do than to follow what the Buddha stated and prepare his travel schedule accordingly . That has nothing to do with 'no great saddha ' , it may just be the opposite. N:I do not question the text, it just shows that a pilgrimage with kusala intention is very valuable. D: if it would be only that , no need for me to bring the matter up But it is stated : '''And they, Ananda, who shall die while > they, with believing heart, > are > journeying on such pilgrimage, > shall be reborn after death when the body shall dissolve, in the happy realms of heaven." I like to mention one more point , that of an old person and the growing uncomfortableness with the body and this kind of trouble the Buddha shared with an ordinary person: "Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, [19] that his body is more comfortable." with Metta Dieter #124852 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:31 am Subject: Re: why choice can't be made? truth_aerator Hello RobertE, >Kusala is always better, learning is always better, but this question >has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Either one has >control or not, choice or not, it's not a question of what one would >wish for. Of course "we" do the best we can to respond with kusala, >not akusala, but the question is whether there is an entity involved >that has control over that, and the answer is 'no.' >================================================ I agree. With best wishes, Alex #124853 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:14 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > RK: I am perfectly happy for you not to agree with vast swathes of the Commentaries > and suttas, just so long as you admit to it; otherwise confusions arise when you > claim to fully follow the Theravada (while still having some strong reservations > about many aspects). > ----------- > > KH: You and I both claim not to have any reservations about the commentaries; we just understand them differently. This is an intriguing debate. I think it is fair to say that my way of looking at Dhamma is more in accord with the way that Rob K. has expressed it, and that yours is more in line with Jon and probably Sarah too. There is a rift between those who allow that absolute structures can be indicated or landmarked by conventional structures, and those who believe they have no relation to each other at all. There is an obvious sort of connection between the idea of an "ear" which is an organ that hears, and "ear-base" or "ear-sense" whose function is to experience a heard object, but you would say that the conventional version of that has no relation to the actual ear-sense that hears, which does not exist in the body. Rob K. taking literally that the ear-base is in the center of the physical ear, as the commentators directly state, also leaves a very good possibility for meditation and other helpful conventional activities, because if there really are structures that accord with or are located in relation to the physical body and conventionally identified mind, then it is very possible that we can approach those structures through a conventional activity, such as attending sounds, thoughts, sensations, etc., in accord with the portals of the body that correspond to those absolute realities. I guess what it comes down to is whether you believe that we really have ears, and that through attending their experience we can approach the citta that hears and the reality of the heard object, or you believe that ears are a total fabrication of mind. It does make a big difference for your practice whether you believe a or b in that regard,a nd I guess amongst those who study Abhidhamma and the commentaries, that issue is not completely settled. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #124854 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:16 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Ken H and Rob K - meant to indicate this for Rob K. as well. Rob E. --------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > RK: I am perfectly happy for you not to agree with vast swathes of the Commentaries > > and suttas, just so long as you admit to it; otherwise confusions arise when you > > claim to fully follow the Theravada (while still having some strong reservations > > about many aspects). > > ----------- > > > > KH: You and I both claim not to have any reservations about the commentaries; we just understand them differently. > > This is an intriguing debate. I think it is fair to say that my way of looking at Dhamma is more in accord with the way that Rob K. has expressed it, and that yours is more in line with Jon and probably Sarah too. There is a rift between those who allow that absolute structures can be indicated or landmarked by conventional structures, and those who believe they have no relation to each other at all. There is an obvious sort of connection between the idea of an "ear" which is an organ that hears, and "ear-base" or "ear-sense" whose function is to experience a heard object, but you would say that the conventional version of that has no relation to the actual ear-sense that hears, which does not exist in the body. > > Rob K. taking literally that the ear-base is in the center of the physical ear, as the commentators directly state, also leaves a very good possibility for meditation and other helpful conventional activities, because if there really are structures that accord with or are located in relation to the physical body and conventionally identified mind, then it is very possible that we can approach those structures through a conventional activity, such as attending sounds, thoughts, sensations, etc., in accord with the portals of the body that correspond to those absolute realities. > > I guess what it comes down to is whether you believe that we really have ears, and that through attending their experience we can approach the citta that hears and the reality of the heard object, or you believe that ears are a total fabrication of mind. It does make a big difference for your practice whether you believe a or b in that regard, and I guess amongst those who study Abhidhamma and the commentaries, that issue is not completely settled. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - #124855 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:57 am Subject: Some way to study dhs and atth philofillet Dear group Can anyone come up with and lead a dhs/atth study corner? I can't but perhaps a portion of the bounteous debate virya could be rechanneled into textual study? I have no time, alas and I guess pt doesn't either, or has lost focus, I can relate to that, no control over that. phil #124856 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:34 am Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth philofillet Dear group again Never mind. If there isn't virya, chanda etc for me to study the books I bought, I should just keep admiring how cool they look on my bookshelf. Perhaps next year when I will have finally lightened my teaching workload. Always next year.... phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear group > > Can anyone come up with and lead a dhs/atth study corner? I can't but perhaps a portion of the bounteous debate virya could be rechanneled into textual study? I have no time, alas and I guess pt doesn't either, or has lost focus, I can relate to that, no control over that. > > phil > #124857 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:08 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert K, --- <. . .> RK: Don't you think they are being specific here in the visuddhimagga: Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support <. . .> --- KH: I could be wrong but I think the Vinaya forbids monks from teaching conventional subjects. And so, as I have already said several times, I understand these references to hearts and ears etc., to be for satipatthana purposes, not for teaching conventional anatomy. I don't see how an arahant could be expected to have special conventional knowledge simply by virtue of his supramundane right understanding. Would he also know a cure for cancer, do you think? Would he necessarily know the speed of light or the distance to the sun and that sort of thing? When monks talk about the sun and the moon, or the heart and the brain, it is for teaching satipatthana, not for teaching astronomy or anatomy. Absolute scientific accuracy is of no relevance to them; they just use the best information available at the time ----------------- > >KH: You and I both claim not to have any reservations about the >commentaries; we just understand them differently. >> > RK: yes and one of us is very, very wrong. If it is me who is deluded and lost let's get it settled. I would invite sarah and jon , phil, scott and Nina to comment on this and help sort out these wrong views of mine. ----------------- KH: I usually find they are reluctant to talk about the views of a particular person. Ken H #124858 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:59 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > --- > <. . .> > RK: Don't you think they are being specific here in the visuddhimagga: > Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV > > 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support > <. . .> > --- > > KH: I could be wrong but I think the Vinaya forbids monks from teaching conventional subjects. And so, as I have already said several times, I understand these references to hearts and ears etc., to be for satipatthana purposes, not for teaching conventional anatomy. > > I don't see how an arahant could be expected to have special conventional knowledge simply by virtue of his supramundane right understanding. Would he also know a cure for cancer, do you think? Would he necessarily know the speed of light or the distance to the sun and that sort of thing? > > When monks talk about the sun and the moon, or the heart and the brain, it is for teaching satipatthana, not for teaching astronomy or anatomy. Absolute scientific accuracy is of no relevance to them; they just use the best information available at the time > > ----------------- Dear Kenh So far you have indicated that the ancients, 1. were correct in indicating the earbase being situated in the conventional ear. 2. wrong about the heartbase being situated in the blood of the heart. Their little mistake on point 2. doesn't matter because it was to teach satipatthana and telling little stories/lies/guesses is ok in that case. Do you think the Buddha had any special knowledge, would he have known such things as whether the heart base was located in the conventional heart, or have any knowledge that might be considered 'scientific'? Do you think that the Arahats with paisambhid-nana had any special knowledges? Even someone who attains vipassana can understand kalapas- could they be so wrong as to think mind-door processes are occuring in the brain area rather than their actual base at the heart(or VV if you are correct and mid-door processes occur in the brain). robert robert #124859 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Nina, you wrote "It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond > > control." > > If my memory serves me well, I recall that the Buddha - of course the > > Buddha wasn't "any old person"! LOL! - could have continued to live > > had > > Ananda requested it of him, but instead the Buddha let himself pass > > away. Am I > > wrong, Nina? > -------- > N: As you said, the Buddha wasn't "any old person"! > I would not say he let himself pass away, it was the right time for > him. Besides, he had reached the end to rebirth. Ananda requesting him to stay alive longer would have been part of the conditionality for him to extend his life, no? > As regards intentional extending of one's life by ordinary people, it > is not rare that a person dying of a terminal illness but anticipating an > event that is very important to the person such as an anniversary or a > significant birthday or the wedding of one's child, manages to hold onto life > until that event occurs, often at the surprise of the person's physician. A > mind filled with strong emotion is quite powerful. In that case, the meaning of the event and the thoughts and sentiments surrounding it are part of the conditionality that extends their life. The fact that this special event can extend the will to live, or strengthen it, actually argues in favor of conditionality, just not in favor of pure physical science. Whenever anything happens that physicians don't expect and can't subsequently explain, they dismiss it as "the placebo effect," unexplained remission, or something similar. There's a lot of placebo effect going around. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #124860 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:33 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth epsteinrob Hey Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Never mind. If there isn't virya, chanda etc for me to study the books I bought, I should just keep admiring how cool they look on my bookshelf. I don't know if it will influence you at all, but if you were to take one of the books and post a small section - in order - and open it for discussion, I for one would be interested in learning the content and trying to understand it, one small section at a time. Once a segment had some clarity, we could go to the next. It might not be that much effort to post a small segment, as you have been doing with the Survey, and you wouldn't have to lead the discussion, just participate as you wish. Best, Rob E. ---------------- > > Can anyone come up with and lead a dhs/atth study corner? I can't but perhaps a portion of the bounteous debate virya could be rechanneled into textual study? I have no time, alas and I guess pt doesn't either, or has lost focus, I can relate to that, no control over that. ================= #124861 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:46 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Ken H. and Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I could be wrong but I think the Vinaya forbids monks from teaching conventional subjects. And so, as I have already said several times, I understand these references to hearts and ears etc., to be for satipatthana purposes, not for teaching conventional anatomy. > ----------------- > > >KH: You and I both claim not to have any reservations about the >commentaries; > we just understand them differently. > >> > > > RK: yes and one of us is very, very wrong. If it is me who is deluded and lost > let's get it settled. I would invite sarah and jon , phil, scott and Nina to > comment on this and help sort out these wrong views of mine. > ----------------- > > KH: I usually find they are reluctant to talk about the views of a particular person. I think what is at issue is what the Abhidhamma and commentaries actually say. If we take it as a given that these are trusted scriptures, then one shouldn't stray so far from the actual prounouncements in these documents that what is being said is dismissed or bypassed. If you say that a reference to the ear is not really a reference to the ear, but is a way of pointing towards the ear-base or ear-sense in the Abhidhamma sense, then one has to have a decent explanation for why they specify a particular part of the physical ear. To say in a general way that this is just a conventional way of pointing at paramatha dhammas, this does not adequately explain why such specific things are said, or what they are meant to point to, other than merely being misleading in their specificity. If it is said that the ear-base is located in the center of the ear-drum or whatever the detail is, then is one to assume that this very specific piece of information has absolutely no meaning, only to be reduced to another "general indication" of "dhammas in general?" If the detail given is pointing towards a dhamma that has nothing to do with the physical body as conventionally described, then one must have some idea of what sort of dhamma is indicated by such a specific conventional term. Isn't that a reasonable demand, if one is to do justice to the commentaries and the people who bothered to write them? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #124862 From: Vince Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what demarcates citta? cerovzt Dear Sarah, you wrote: > Jon and I are now in Hong Kong, soon to go to Aus. We're planning to go to Bkk at the > end of August for 10 days or so. Another old friend is coming from Japan and I think > there will be some good discussions at that time, so would be great if you could come at > the same time. Maybe let me know off-list if you want dates and so on. Same applies to > anyone else. Would be great if anyone else can join us too. Maybe we'd go into the > countryside if so. > K.Sujin is well, afaik. thank you very much. I'm planning the evasion from my job in summer but still is too early to know exact dates. Probably I will know it in July then I will send you an email. It would be great meet you in DSG :) best wishes, Vince, #124863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some way to study dhs and atth nilovg Dear Rob E and Phil, Op 11-jun-2012, om 6:33 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I don't know if it will influence you at all, but if you were to > take one of the books and post a small section - in order - and > open it for discussion, I for one would be interested in learning > the content and trying to understand it, one small section at a > time. Once a segment had some clarity, we could go to the next. > > It might not be that much effort to post a small segment, as you > have been doing with the Survey, and you wouldn't have to lead the > discussion, just participate as you wish. ------- N: Excellent idea, Robert. Small sections at a time, and I welcome discussions. Nina. #124864 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:39 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch I, 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha accumulated these perfections in the course of innumerable lives as a Bodhisatta, a being destined to Buddhahood. He made his resolution to become a Buddha many aeons ago, when he was born into a brahmin family as Sumedha, during the time of the Buddha Dípaòkara who declared him to be a future Buddha. The Buddha Dípaòkara was succeeded by other Buddhas who lived before the Buddha Gotama, the Sammåsambuddha of this Buddha era. When the Bodhisatta who would be the future Buddha Gotama made his resolution, he knew that he would have to endure innumerable lives in order to accumulate the perfections necessary for the attainment of Buddhahood. A Sammåsambuddha has to accumulate a higher degree of wisdom and virtue than others who attain enlightenment. All those who have attained arahatship have eradicated defilements, they are “perfected ones”. However, arahats do not have the same degree of wisdom and they all have different talents and abilities. Some arahats are experts at teaching, others have accumulated clairvoyance, others are inclined to be forest-dwellers, others again are experts in jhåna (absorption concentration) or in remembering past lives. The person who is destined to be a Sammåsambuddha, however, is born at a time when the teachings of past Buddhas have disappeared completely. He has to discover the truth all by himself and he has to teach the Path to others as well. Therefore, he has to accumulate the highest degree of wisdom and he has to be foremost in all perfections. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Ones, Ch XIII, § 5): “Monks, there is one person born into the world who is unique, without a peer, without counterpart, incomparable, unequalled, matchless, unrivalled, best of bipeds he. Who is that one person? It is a Tathågata who is Arahant, a fully Enlightened One. This, monks, is that one person.” The Bodhisatta made his resolution to become a Buddha out of compassion. He did not only wish to gain the truth for himself, he also wanted other beings to attain enlightenment. He had the welfare of other beings in mind when he decided to develop insight, to win the truth and to eradicate defilements. He made the resolution to become a future Buddha at the feet of the Buddha Dípaòkara and renewed his resolution time and again during his innumerable lives as a Bodhisatta. He was unshakable in his determination to accumulate all the perfections necessary for the attainment of Buddhahood. His determination, made out of compassion for other beings, is one of the “perfections” he fulfilled. -------- Nina. #124865 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. nilovg Hi Howard and Dieter, Op 10-jun-2012, om 17:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > -------- > N: As you said, theBuddha wasn't "any old person"! > I would not say he let himself pass away, it was the right time for > him. Besides, he had reached the end to rebirth. > > With regard to this matter, one might look at > _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html) , > particularly at the last section of Part 2 > and the first 3 sections of Part 3. > -------- N: I have read those texts but I have no inclination to try to understand what is in the mind of a Buddha. It does not help me to understand reality now. And still, understanding reality now is the only way to begin to grasp what Buddhahood means. How otherwise would we know the Path the Buddha realized at his enlightenment. ------------ > H: As regards intentional extending of one's life by ordinary > people, it > is not rare that a person dying of a terminal illness but > anticipating an > event that is very important to the person such as an anniversary or a > significant birthday or the wedding of one's child, manages to hold > onto life > until that event occurs, often at the surprise of the person's > physician. A > mind filled with strong emotion is quite powerful. > ------- N: I do not deny this. But life is more complex. There are so many factors that condition each moment of our life. It seems that "I can do, I can manage", but in fact, there are many conditioning factors that we are ignorant of. The dilemma was: a person who is terminally ill could arrange for a pilgrimage and die on the way so that he will have a heavenly rebirth. I am disinclined to think too much on such matters, but I can give a few examples. In the first place: he must have the financial means to undertake that journey. Kamma conditions one being poor or well off. The country must not be in turmoil. I have experienced this during one of our trips (I think Christine too?). In the North of India there was fighting between Hindus and Moslems at Ayudhaya. It was dangerous to travel, we did by night and Kh Suwat had the greatest trouble to get us through. We had to stay in the hotel one day, could not go outside. At first we had Dhamma discussions in the garden, but then we had to move inside. Finally we could manage to reach all the holy places, but with great trouble. We should remember that kusala kamma cannot always produce result, that there are certain factors that make this favorable or unfavorable. One of these is a favorable place, thus, a country where there is no war. Or a favorable time. Then, a person may be very ill and unable to continue with the journey. We also experienced this. Someone had to return by plane, could not stay in the bus. Also, before Anagarika Dharmapala did so much to organise to make the holy places accessible, they could not be reached, and wild animals were roaming about. This was for several centuries. When we see the places now, very well taken care of, we take it for granted that we can reach them. This was not always so. Thus, there are many conditioning factors that play their part when we are able to reach the holy places. As to kamma and death: during life kamma produces the physical bases of cittas (including heartbase) and pysical life-faculty. Sixteen moments of citta before death kamma stops producing these ruupas, and with the falling away of the dying-consciousness they all fall away. Also in the suttas there is reference to kamma and death: it conditions a long lifespan or a short lifespan of beings. But anyway, kamma is the field of the Buddhas and we cannot understand how it works precisely. ------ Nina. #124866 From: "Christine" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ................ > The dilemma was: a person who is terminally ill could arrange for The > country must not be in turmoil. I have experienced this during one of > our trips (I think Christine too?). In the North of India there was > fighting between Hindus and Moslems at Ayudhaya. It was dangerous to > travel, we did by night and Kh Suwat had the greatest trouble to get > us through. We had to stay in the hotel one day, could not go > outside. At first we had Dhamma discussions in the garden, but then > we had to move inside. Finally we could manage to reach all the holy > places, but with great trouble. > Hello Nina, This post recalls some of the danger – not sure if it is the type of incident you are referring to: ........................ And then Sukin……. Hello all, Having seen the level of alertness and concern during our three days in Kashmir - (arrivng ten days after the earthquake, and on the day an Indian Minister and some of his party was ambushed and killed in Srinigar by insurgents) we had grown used to seeing soldiers in camoflage gear (even the Sikh soldiers had turbans in camoflage colours), every few hundred metres, even in the countryside along the roads - all armed. Most of those sprinkled across the roads and rooftops had black scarves covering their faces from just below their eyes, and there was a level of tenseness mixed with boredom. When the tour bus was stopped at a stall selling saffron, and the Thais were happily bargaining with the stall owners, I went back to sit on the bus, with the driver's helper, and a few others. An Indian soldier armed with a rifle got on the bus, seemingly interrogated the driver's helper in a loud voice with his face a few inches from the 'very polite' man's face, looked expressionlessly at me who was smiling tentatively, strolled down the bus isle, looking over the belongings of the absent Thais, strolled back, snarled at the 'very polite' driver's helper again, ignored my anxious and placative smile and got down off the bus. The helper and I said nothing, but exchanged meaningful glances and raised eyebrows. A few minutes later the same soldier ordered the bus to advance just 20 feet along the road, then seemed to lose interest. On the day of our departure from Kashmir, we were sitting in the airport lounge in Srinigar, armed soldiers everywhere, waiting for our flight to Delhi. We had been subjected to two body searches within the airport already - but, like the good dhamma study group members that we are, we, of course, realised that the body parts that these people were clutching, patting, massaging and poking were not I, not me, not mine, not what I am, not any self ... really... (there was actually another search to come on the tarmac before climbing into the plane.) We had been warned by the tour organisers that we needed to take the batteries out of everything we owned and store them in our large suitcase. It is absolutely amazing how much of what we have is run by battery ... cameras, mp3 players, clocks, watches, torches, toothbrushes etc. There was a feeling of unreality for me - as if we were part of movie or an 'experience' put on for tourists ... Perhaps that is what made Sukin do it ... that, or a rush of blood to the brain .... :-) :-) Being in the business he is in, Sukin always seems to have the latest gadget, and this time he had a mobile phone with all the bells and whistles, including the ability to take photographs. I was sitting with he and Sarah and a few others, and then Sukin began holding his mobile phone up and sizing up a photo of the tarmac, the plane and the SOLDIER COMING TOWARDS HIM WITH THE KALASHNIKOV. Sukin!!!!!! Dear Dhamma Friend .... I don't know how to tell you this ... but I'm NOT sitting next to you in airports in a Disputed- Zone again - at least not unless I have your mobile phone in my hand-bag. This soldier was expressionless, but quite polite. Sukin was expressionless, and quite polite in return. We all agreed there was a misunderstanding. Sukin put his phone/camera away. The soldier was satisfied. I quietly had palpitations, and looked accusingly at Sukin, and gave some reflection to the possibility on how in the ordinariness of life bad things can happen 'almost accidently' to well-intentioned individuals - it made me ponder on kamma and the openings we give for seeds from the past to ripen. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/51758 ..................................................... with metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #124867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Dear Rob E and all, Op 11-jun-2012, om 6:46 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > If the detail given is pointing towards a dhamma that has nothing > to do with the physical body as conventionally described, then one > must have some idea of what sort of dhamma is indicated by such a > specific conventional term. Isn't that a reasonable demand, if one > is to do justice to the commentaries and the people who bothered to > write them? ------ N: You are right, Rob. The whole matter is not so complicated. The Atthasalini speaks about several meanings of eye: eye of flesh and eye of insight. The latter is fivefold: all-seeing eye of the Buddha, eye of knowledge, eye of Dhamma, etc. Eye of flesh, ma"msa cakkhu is twofold: compound organ (sasambhaara cakkhu), and sentient organ. Compound organ: a lump of flesh, situated in the cavity of the eye, etc. Sentient organ: the pasada ruupa and this is situated in and bound to the compound organ. It is no bigger in size than the head of a louse. ------ Nina. #124868 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. nilovg Dear Christine, Op 11-jun-2012, om 9:26 heeft Christine het volgende geschreven: > This post recalls some of the danger – not sure if it is the type > of incident you are referring to: ------ N: This seems at another time, but a similar dangerous situation. We also had many checks by military posts and troubles with batteries. The incident described by Sukin I cannot remember. ------ Nina. #124869 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:47 pm Subject: 2007 audio - 16. Khandha sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Today's extract is relevant to my recent discussion with Dieter. ***** Sarah: I have an extract her from the Nyantiloka dictionary on the khandhas and I would just like your comment on it. He says that: "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speakingmerely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness."* This is the common understanding of khandhas - that it's just a means of classification, so one cannot refer to khandhas as realities because they are just a classification of group KS: Group of what? S: Group of realities. But also I think that you usually say that visible object appearing now is khandha, seeing is khandha. Every conditioned reality, every conditioned dhamma is khandha. So we cannot, in that sense, say that the khandhas are just "abstract classifications'. It's not just a concept or a group because each reality is a khandha. KS: If seeing now is not khandha, what's the meaning of the 11 characteristics** of khandha? Like vedana - different kinds. S: Exactly. So it's not just a grouping of different dhammas but each one is khandha, KS: Because if there is no understanding, no awareness of khandha, how can we say that this khandha is different from the other moment of the same khandha, like [S: different] vedana, like hardness and softness? One is softer and one is harder. It shows that when there is understanding of khandha the characteristic of that particular one, that same kind of khandha is not the same. It has to be different from one to another. At the moment when it arises, it has to be different from the other moment. Otherwise it has to be the exactly the same. S: So we cannot say that khandha just means group or classification. KS: No, it's just the explanation of what khandha is. When it arises and when there is awareness, the understanding of the differences of each group of khandhas is real. S: "...of each group of khandhas"? KS: Each group. Like rupa khandha - even it's a sound, each moment, each one is different, even in the same one group. No need to talk about the difference between vedana and sanna and sankhara khandha. ***** *http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm **Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, all that belongs to the corporeality group. Whatever there exists of feeling ... of perception ... of mental formations ... of consciousness ... all that belongs to the consciousness-group" (S. XXII, 48) Metta Sarah ===== #124870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 2007 audio - 16. Khandha nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 11-jun-2012, om 9:47 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > KS: Because if there is no understanding, no awareness of khandha, > how can we say that this khandha is different from the other moment > of the same khandha, like [S: different] vedana, like hardness and > softness? One is softer and one is harder. It shows that when > there is understanding of khandha the characteristic of that > particular one, that same kind of khandha is not the same. It has > to be different from one to another. At the moment when it arises, > it has to be different from the other moment. Otherwise it has to > be the exactly the same. ------ N: This shows that khandha is not abstract at all. One is softer, one is harder, never the same. The characteristics can be realized by sati sampaja~n~na. Thus, not the name is important, but the characteristic. ----- Nina. #124871 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 2007 audio - 16. Khandha sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: This shows that khandha is not abstract at all. One is softer, one > is harder, never the same. The characteristics can be realized by > sati sampaja~n~na. Thus, not the name is important, but the > characteristic. ... S: And this applies to the entire Tipitaka, to the Visuddhimagga and all the ancient commentaries. The Buddha taught about realities, paramattha dhammas. What is important is the understanding of the realities that appear now - that's all! As you wrote in another thread: "Does the Abhidhamma help us to know ourselves better? To know our defilements more?" Metta Sarah ===== #124872 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 2007 audio - 16. Khandha sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: This shows that khandha is not abstract at all. One is softer, one > is harder, never the same. The characteristics can be realized by > sati sampaja~n~na. Thus, not the name is important, but the > characteristic. > ----- S: And the same applies to the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries - all about realities, not names. All that matters is the understanding of what appears now - not the names, the numbers, abstract details or academic studies. As you wrote in another message: "We can check: does the Abhidhamma help us to know ourselves better? To know our defilements more?" Metta Sarah ==== #124873 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Broken heart? sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > how nice you met Jessica. I am sure there were lively discussions. ... S: Yes, always very lively with Jessica. We all discussed Dhamma on the beach, in the sea, over coffee, in the car. over lunch.... lots of controversial topics - many of which came down to the selection of objects, anatta and no control, realities now, some Abhidhamma details, Abhidhamma and practice - all the usual suspects! Perhaps Jessica will share more! .... > With the link to you article I cannot do anything, just like other > links to Zolag. I can never click the right spot unfortunately. > > Btw, this is a link to the article I wrote a long time ago on "Love > > and Attachment" ... S: OK, I'll start posting it in extracts as it may be of interest to Lukas or others. How many lifetimes have we all experienced strong attachments and "broken hearts"? Metta Sarah ===== #124874 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what demarcates citta? sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > thank you very much. I'm planning the evasion from my job in summer but still is too early > to know exact dates. Probably I will know it in July then I will send you an email. It would be > great meet you in DSG :) .... S: We are planning on 24th August for about 10 days. It'll be a good time for discussions if you can join. Metta Sarah ==== #124875 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Broken heart? 1. Attachment and Bondage sarahprocter... Dear Lukas and all, This is the first part of a short article I wrote a long time ago which Alan W came across and put on his web. Attachment to Another Person. ****************************** During a discussion in Bangkok at Wat Bavornives, Khun Sujin explained that when we are very attached to a particular person, "one just gets more attachment, more akusala from the other". She stressed that there will always be "another and another person", and there will always be sorrow from the objects that we like so much because we cannot always have them. "Less attachment, less sorrow." BONDAGE? We were also reminded that while we cling to ourselves, we cling to other beings. The sutta, `The Bondage', (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sevens, Ch V, 48, PTS translation), is about the attachment to femininity and masculinity in the other. If there is attraction to oneself, there is always attraction to others. When we are attached to our own khandhas, we are attached to the others' khandhas as well: "Monks, I will teach you a Dhamma-discourse on bondage and bond freedom. Pay heed, listen well, I will speak... And what is the discourse?... "Monks, a woman marks femininity in herself, the feminine occupation, attire, prejudices, impulses, voice, charm. She is excited by that, delighted by that; and being so excited, delighted, she marks masculinity about her, the masculine occupation, attire, prejudices, impulses, voice, charm. She is excited by that, delighted by that; and being so excited, delighted, she desires a bond with those about her; and whatsoever happiness, well-being comes of this bond, that she desires. Monks, delighted by, attached to her own sex, she has gone into man's bondage and thus escapes not from her own sex. "So, too a man marks masculinity in himself... is excited by that...; marks femininity about him... is excited by that... and desires a bond with those about him... Monks, delighted by, attached to his own sex, he has gone into woman's bondage and thus escapes not from his own sex. (But the opposite in both cases holds.) "Verily, monks, this is the Dhamma-discourse, on bondage and bond freedom." ***** Metta Sarah ===== #124876 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:50 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi pt, Thanks for joining in. ---------- > pt: Interesting topic. To perhaps lend some support to both approaches: 1. There was a show on BBC about heart transplants some time ago. Apparently, in some cases the recipients of the heart transplant suddenly started exhibiting habits of the donors, even though the identity of the donors was never revealed <. . .> ---------- KH: I'm not sure what you mean by "both approaches." My approach is not to argue that the mind-base is located in the brain rather than in the heart. My approach is to say it is not located in either. Wouldn't you agree that belief in the existence of a heart or brain was atta belief? The question of a dhamma arising in one of them simply does not apply. ------------- <. . .> > pt: so I'll let you get back to the more interesting issue - whether concepts such as "physical heart" can actually be true and factual, or not. ------------- KH: Oh I see you do understand my approach after all. That's a relief. But the answer is clear, isn't it? Concepts do not exist in absolute reality. Ken H #124877 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:18 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ----- <. . .> > RE: There is a rift between those who allow that absolute structures can be indicated or landmarked by conventional structures, and those who believe they have no relation to each other at all. There is an obvious sort of connection between the idea of an "ear" which is an organ that hears, and "ear-base" or "ear-sense" whose function is to experience a heard object, but you would say that the conventional version of that has no relation to the actual ear-sense that hears, which does not exist in the body. ------- KH: Yes, my understanding of satipatthana is that a conditioned dhamma, such as ear-sense or ear base, is directly known for what it is and that there is the recognition, at that moment, that no permanent consciousness, or permanent body, exists with that dhamma or pertains to it any way. -------------- <. . .> >RE: Rob K. taking literally that the ear-base is in the center of the physical ear, as the commentators directly state, -------------- KH: The commentaries do directly state that, don't they? But then the commentaries and the Tipitaka state a lot of things in conventional language. None of it relates to conventional realities, however. It all relates to the fleeting, conditioned world taught uniquely by the Buddha. -------------------- > RE: also leaves a very good possibility for meditation and other helpful conventional activities, -------------------- KH: Rob K will not like to hear that! :-) ----------------------------- <. . .> >RE: I guess what it comes down to is whether you believe that we really have ears, and that through attending their experience we can approach the citta that hears and the reality of the heard object, or you believe that ears are a total fabrication of mind. It does make a big difference for your practice whether you believe a or b in that regard, and I guess amongst those who study Abhidhamma and the commentaries, that issue is not completely settled. ----------------------------- KH: Yes, ears do exist in ultimate reality, but only in the form of a single, fleeting conditioned dhamma, which is not at all like the permanent fleshy organs that worldlings believe in. Ken H #124878 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Nina) - Robert, I wasn't arguing against conditionality, but was including volition within conditionality and taking exception to "no control" if that means "no influence of volition". With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/11/2012 12:29:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard, and Nina. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > Nina, you wrote "It depends on kamma when one will die. Beyond > > control." > > If my memory serves me well, I recall that the Buddha - of course the > > Buddha wasn't "any old person"! LOL! - could have continued to live > > had > > Ananda requested it of him, but instead the Buddha let himself pass > > away. Am I > > wrong, Nina? > -------- > N: As you said, the Buddha wasn't "any old person"! > I would not say he let himself pass away, it was the right time for > him. Besides, he had reached the end to rebirth. Ananda requesting him to stay alive longer would have been part of the conditionality for him to extend his life, no? > As regards intentional extending of one's life by ordinary people, it > is not rare that a person dying of a terminal illness but anticipating an > event that is very important to the person such as an anniversary or a > significant birthday or the wedding of one's child, manages to hold onto life > until that event occurs, often at the surprise of the person's physician. A > mind filled with strong emotion is quite powerful. In that case, the meaning of the event and the thoughts and sentiments surrounding it are part of the conditionality that extends their life. The fact that this special event can extend the will to live, or strengthen it, actually argues in favor of conditionality, just not in favor of pure physical science. Whenever anything happens that physicians don't expect and can't subsequently explain, they dismiss it as "the placebo effect," unexplained remission, or something similar. There's a lot of placebo effect going around. Best, Rob E. #124879 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:11 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth philofillet Dear Rob E Thanks but no thanks, just want to study the texts, putthing dhs and relevant atth and sub-commentary passages together. Not intetested in your and other people's speculative interpretations and pet theories, personally. I guess I'm alone there. I'll stick to posting SPD passages now and then. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hey Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Never mind. If there isn't virya, chanda etc for me to study the books I bought, I should just keep admiring how cool they look on my bookshelf. > > I don't know if it will influence you at all, but if you were to take one of the books and post a small section - in order - and open it for discussion, I for one would be interested in learning the content and trying to understand it, one small section at a time. Once a segment had some clarity, we could go to the next. > > It might not be that much effort to post a small segment, as you have been doing with the Survey, and you wouldn't have to lead the discussion, just participate as you wish. > > Best, > Rob E. > > ---------------- > > > > Can anyone come up with and lead a dhs/atth study corner? I can't but perhaps a portion of the bounteous debate virya could be rechanneled into textual study? I have no time, alas and I guess pt doesn't either, or has lost focus, I can relate to that, no control over that. > > ================= > #124880 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:36 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ------ > RK: So far you have indicated that the ancients, 1. were correct in indicating the earbase being situated in the conventional ear. ------ KH: That is the exact opposite of what I was intending to indicate. Conventional wisdom tells us that hearing is based in the ear. The Dhamma, on the other hand, tells us that hearing is based in a fleeting conditioned rupa. The Theras described that rupa and the consciousness it supported by referring to their conventionally known counterparts. That doesn't mean their knowledge of conventional hearing had to be a precise science that would stand the test of time. As it happens, their idea of conventional hearing *did* stand the test of time. Their idea of conventional mind-consciousness may not have done so well. If the Theras were here today they would say, "So we may have got that part of conventional science wrong, so what? So sue us!" :-) --------------- > RK: 2. wrong about the heartbase being situated in the blood of the heart. Their little mistake on point 2. doesn't matter because it was to teach satipatthana and telling little stories/lies/guesses is ok in that case. --------------- KH: That's right. Concepts have no inherent characteristics. There are no inherently accurate concepts and no inherently inaccurate concepts. ---------------------- > RK: Do you think the Buddha had any special knowledge, would he have known such things as whether the heart base was located in the conventional heart, or have any knowledge that might be considered 'scientific'? ----------------------- KH: According to my understanding the Buddha could (if he had turned his mind to it)have looked forward to the 21st century and seen what the science of the time was saying. So he could have told his audience about neurons existing in the brain. He could also have told them about iPads and global warming, but why would he bother? ------------------------------- > RK: Do you think that the Arahats with pa isambhid - nana had any special knowledges? Even someone who attains vipassana can understand kalapas- could they be so wrong as to think mind-door processes are occuring in the brain area rather than their actual base at the heart(or VV if you are correct and mid-door processes occur in the brain). --------------------------------- KH: You refuse to acknowledge what I keep repeating. I have been consistently saying that rupas do not arise in conventional places. I don't care if it's the heart or the brain, the mind base does not arise there. By saying that the mind base existed in the heart the Theras were able to convey the meaning of mind and mind base. But that's all there was to it; it was just a conventional means of expression for the purpose of describing conditioned dhammas. Ken H #124881 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:26 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > The Theras described that rupa and the consciousness it supported by referring to their conventionally known counterparts. > > That doesn't mean their knowledge of conventional hearing had to be a precise science that would stand the test of time. > > As it happens, their idea of conventional hearing *did* stand the test of time. Their idea of conventional mind-consciousness may NOT have done so well. > > If the Theras were here today they would say, "So we may have got that part of conventional science WRONG, so what? So sue us!" :-) > > --------------- > > > --------------- > > KH: That's right. Concepts have no inherent characteristics. There are no inherently accurate concepts and no inherently inaccurate concepts. > > ---------------------- dear Kenh from Sarah http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21096 In the first chapter in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy - the Abhidhamma text, PTS)and its commentary (the Debates Commentary) there is a lot of discussion about commonly used terms. The following quote from the Commentary (On the Person, p 41) """Thus it is said: The Enlightened One, best of speakers, spoke two kinds of truth, namely, the popular and that of highest meaning, a third is not got at (i.e known). Therein, discourse meeting with agreement is true and is by way of world convention. Highest meaning discourse expression is also true and, as such, characteristic of things (as they are). ""enquote When the Commentary says "true by way of conventional" does that not show the THERAS believed that what they said about heart and ear ect was true. They didn't think the earbase was in the foot, and they didn't think the heartbase was in the brain. ."" But POPULAR discourse they teach consistently and in conformity with TRUTH according to the method selected. And highest-meaning discourse, too. `they teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected.' "" endquote If, as you say, no concepts are accurateor inaccurate(despite saying they got the heartbase location wrong- showing that you BELIEVE your concepts to be truer than theirs)what do they mean by saying in "POPULAR DISCOURSE THEY TEACH CONSISTENTLY and in conformity with TRUTH" Robert #124882 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:37 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Hi KenH (RobK, RobE), > KH: Wouldn't you agree that belief in the existence of a heart or brain was atta belief? pt: Not sure if it's atta, or attanu, always mix up these two. > KH: The question of a dhamma arising in one of them simply does not apply. pt: Agreed, however, I wonder if it is precisely the issue of "arising" that's under question. If I'm not mistaken, commentaries don't quite focus on the arising of dhammas, but rather on the connection between bases (dhammas) and physical organs and use words like "bound up with, support, situated in", etc. I think it is the interpretation of these terms that seems to bring us difficulty (at least in my case for sure). In other words, there seems to be a connection implied between dhammas and concepts and then our interpretation of what that means seems to vary over a wide range and that's where our differences show. > > pt: so I'll let you get > back to the more interesting issue - whether concepts such as "physical heart" > can actually be true and factual, or not. > ------------- > > KH: Oh I see you do understand my approach after all. That's a relief. > > But the answer is clear, isn't it? Concepts do not exist in absolute reality. pt: Yes, it seems straightforward enough. But, I suspect RobK also agrees that concepts do not exist in absolute reality. So, I think it's the issue of the relationship between concepts and dhammas that is actually giving us grief. My current take on this whole thing is that a "physical heart" can be known only through thinking (so as a concept), so it will never be known during a moment of satipatthana. I mean, a heart might as well be really "out there somewhere", just like trees and cars (and the related driving into trees), but I don't think that is something that can be verified in moments of satipatthana. As for the connection between dhammas and concepts, I don't know at this point. I largely take it similar to how RobE expressed it - when commentaries speak of conventional things, I take it as something pointing to dhammas now, rather than science. I also agree with RobE that a more substantial connection between dhammas and concepts would make most of the meditation methods valid. However, I'm also pretty sure RobK is not actually advocating existence of concepts. As for where exactly is the difference between your interpretations, my guess is that it has to do with the interpretation of the relationship between dhammas and concepts, and the related issue of whether concepts can then have characteristics such as "true", "correct", etc. Best wishes pt #124883 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:55 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? szmicio Dear Phil, Nice to hear from you. I am always glad for your specific support to me. > I know what you mean, Lukas. If uncontrollable conditions hadn't led me away from my hometown I would stil doing drugs with my old friends and maybe dead like my cousin. Who knows whether conditions will lead you back or not? Nobody knows. But there can be conditions for understanding of whatever is unfolding through processes of dhammas. Sorry to hear about your cousine. Alan mentioned on meeting when he met Acharn at hospital, when her father was dying. That was very inspiring to hear. He told me that he was suprised that she was discussing Dhamma with him, when her father was dying. I asked if she was said at that moment. Alan mentioned, that she was not. I think this is a benefit of developing more understanding in life. No sadness. No grieve, No lamentation. And than we just know, no matter what happens in life, for that moment no conditions to condition A grieve. Imposible for all kind of sorrow to arise, cause there is no cause for that time. Best wishes Lukas #124884 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:17 am Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth szmicio Dear Phil, For some time i was studying Dhammasangani. When I found english translation, that I didnt find good, I started to read in paali. I was also thinking a lot how shall i study it. But I think there is no particular way. Just read and see how this leads to consideration. Kusala dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, avyakata dhammaa. It seems so simply, but it's so deep and profound. seeing, hearing,..bodily impressions are avyakata dhammaa, there are all the time in our life, now. kusala and akusala dhammaa follows, without anyone there. Knowing shape and form, all this people it may be kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa. Even I dont understand this realities. I still can consider, this are not self. Just mental activities now, that follows, it's own way. And nimitta comes. Each word of Blessed One words in Dhammasangani are so high and profound and that really needs so huge understanding that must be accumulated. We can for now think only of staories, but they are real. This is a faith I think. I think we need more and more saddha to understand them. We just study them, but no expectations. Right understanding, that may come or not is really conditioned and this is sankhara khandha that must gradually accumulated. But I think the point is to read and learn them even a little n our life, and I think it is helpful. I was ponder over yasmim samaye. And this is explained in Atthasalini. When the proper times come, when there are right causes, when there is an occasion, when there are a proper conditions or when the proper dhammas arise... then kusala, akusala, avyakataa dhammas arise and perform their functions. So no worries, no control, just different realities, when the proper time comes. We cannot change. Just a couple of thoughts. I talked this with luraya. Shall I study morning evening, shall I study a lot, shall I take a rest for a while from reading. But not particular answer for that. Cause we expect a lot from reading, to condition more awarness, we expect right understanding to come and know all of this realities. But it's not in anyone control, when there is a proper time, they right understanding will arise and there will be light for that moments. So we just read and listen and learn. Best wishes Lukas > Can anyone come up with and lead a dhs/atth study corner? I can't but perhaps a portion of the bounteous debate virya could be rechanneled into textual study? I have no time, alas and I guess pt doesn't either, or has lost focus, I can relate to that, no control over that. > > phil > #124885 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Dieter) - In a message dated 6/11/2012 2:28:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Dieter, Op 10-jun-2012, om 17:02 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > -------- > N: As you said, theBuddha wasn't "any old person"! > I would not say he let himself pass away, it was the right time for > him. Besides, he had reached the end to rebirth. > > With regard to this matter, one might look at > __http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html__ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html_) > (_http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html) ) , > particularly at the last section of Part 2 > and the first 3 sections of Part 3. > -------- N: I have read those texts but I have no inclination to try to understand what is in the mind of a Buddha. It does not help me to understand reality now. And still, understanding reality now is the only way to begin to grasp what Buddhahood means. How otherwise would we know the Path the Buddha realized at his enlightenment. ------------ > H: As regards intentional extending of one's life by ordinary > people, it > is not rare that a person dying of a terminal illness but > anticipating an > event that is very important to the person such as an anniversary or a > significant birthday or the wedding of one's child, manages to hold > onto life > until that event occurs, often at the surprise of the person's > physician. A > mind filled with strong emotion is quite powerful. > ------- N: I do not deny this. But life is more complex. There are so many factors that condition each moment of our life. It seems that "I can do, I can manage", but in fact, there are many conditioning factors that we are ignorant of. ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I agree 100%. I concede a *multitude* of conditions playing very important roles. My point only is not to give short shrift to the role played by desire, intention, and intentional action. There is no self, and there is certainly no ability to do whatever "one" wishes independent of other conditions, but a fact not to be slighted is that emotion and kamma and chanda are powerful conditions having considerable effect. ---------------------------------------------------------- The dilemma was: a person who is terminally ill could arrange for a pilgrimage and die on the way so that he will have a heavenly rebirth. I am disinclined to think too much on such matters, but I can give a few examples. In the first place: he must have the financial means to undertake that journey. Kamma conditions one being poor or well off. The country must not be in turmoil. I have experienced this during one of our trips (I think Christine too?). In the North of India there was fighting between Hindus and Moslems at Ayudhaya. It was dangerous to travel, we did by night and Kh Suwat had the greatest trouble to get us through. We had to stay in the hotel one day, could not go outside. At first we had Dhamma discussions in the garden, but then we had to move inside. Finally we could manage to reach all the holy places, but with great trouble. We should remember that kusala kamma cannot always produce result, that there are certain factors that make this favorable or unfavorable. One of these is a favorable place, thus, a country where there is no war. Or a favorable time. Then, a person may be very ill and unable to continue with the journey. We also experienced this. Someone had to return by plane, could not stay in the bus. Also, before Anagarika Dharmapala did so much to organise to make the holy places accessible, they could not be reached, and wild animals were roaming about. This was for several centuries. When we see the places now, very well taken care of, we take it for granted that we can reach them. This was not always so. Thus, there are many conditioning factors that play their part when we are able to reach the holy places. As to kamma and death: during life kamma produces the physical bases of cittas (including heartbase) and pysical life-faculty. Sixteen moments of citta before death kamma stops producing these ruupas, and with the falling away of the dying-consciousness they all fall away. Also in the suttas there is reference to kamma and death: it conditions a long lifespan or a short lifespan of beings. But anyway, kamma is the field of the Buddhas and we cannot understand how it works precisely. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Quite so. But what we CAN know is its importance. --------------------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124886 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:33 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' jonoabb Hi Chris (124588) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Thanks Jon - much to ponder over in your response - much appreciated. > =============== J: Thanks, Chris, but I think the only comment of substance I made was regarding the limited significance, as I see it, of `proving' that the Ahidhamma Pitaka came after the time of the Buddha. I have now posted a comment on the Ven.'s website to that effect (see copy below). Someone else has already commented on the Ven's treatment of the sense-door objects, and I have posted a `Reply' to that person's comment (also copied below) Jon ################################################# Dear Bhante In your article you set out the case for the proposition that "there was no Abhidhamma Pitaka in the earliest days of Buddhism". You go on to say that, on the basis of that conclusion, most Buddhist scholars in the West are of the view that "Abhidhamma philosophy was never taught by the Buddha" (end of paragraph 5). However, you do not consider the question of whether the second of those propositions. ("Abhidhamma philosophy not taught by the Buddha") necessarily follows from the first ("no Abhidhamma Pitaka in the earliest days of Buddhism"). As I see it, regardless of the view one takes on the compilation of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, there is still the question of whether or not the details of the Abhidhamma philosophy are, or could possibly be, a correct description of the way things are. (For example, is it so or possibly so that consciousness (citta) is momentary and accompanied by various cetasikas; is there or may there be a citta (the bhavanga citta) that has the same object from the previous life throughout this life, etc.). And this question involves a consideration of whether or not those details are fully consistent with the other 2 baskets of the Tipitaka, i.e., doctrinal rather than textual considerations. ################################################# Greg Kleiman says: May 21, 2012 at 11:22 am Hey Bhante, great article. But 6b. needs a little more thought. The abhidhamma is not trying to be the scientific view of matter. It is a description of how consciousness experiences matter. Consciousness experiences these qualities of the abhidhamma of taste and smell etc. So from the point of view of consciousness experience of matter the abhidhamma is a good description. Reply: Dear Bhante (and Greg) I agree with what Greg says here, that the sense-door objects mentioned in the Abhidhamma are a reference to what is being actually experienced at a given moment, and not to their conventionally known counterparts. While the latter can be measured, duplicated and otherwise scientifically evaluated, the former obviously cannot. These same sense-door objects are mentioned frequently in the Suttas among those things (dhammas) that have the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and that are to be known. To say that they `exist only in the mind', as if they were concepts, seems to overlook the significance of this. ################################################# #124887 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Dear Sarah (and Nina) , you wrote: Thx for the discussion. It's not an easy topic. D: let us see how far we come without repeating too often our perspectives ;-) you wrote: (D: I like to emphasise 'whatever exists of .....belong to the ...group ' , i.e. what exists are the corporeal or mental phenomena/ dhammas, distinguished by the khandhas. The grouping itself is concept , has 'no real existence' , only its single constituents parts `can be called reality . ... S: Here is a quote from 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' explaining this point (which Nina quoted before): "The term khandha refers to the dhamma which can be described as past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near. Hence khandha is sankhata dhamma, the dhamma which is conditioned, which arises and falls away, and thus, it can be described as past, present, future, etc. D: yes , but it is still a grouping of phenomena /dhamma e.g. When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak." (S. V. 10). And these 5 groups have itself constituent parts . For example when the eye, ear ,nose etc. is connected with the consciousness , the designation Vinnaya Khandha is used. If this designation would be real then it would present itself as a '6 senses soup' ..as real is known to us only the seeing, hearing etc.,in other words : no appearance of Khandha in our reality , it is abstract (by designation) as the Venerable Nyanatiloka rightfully states: "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental formations, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness, as we shall see later on. Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and -mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities." S: " Whereas asankhata dhamma, nibbaana, is the dhamma which does not arise, which is unconditioned . ... D: as much as I agree with Venerable Nyanatiloka (e.g. concerning Khandha) , I don't with 'asankhata dhamma ' I quote from my recent posting on another list: (Definition of Sankhara (Buddh.Dic) :4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (saá¹…khata, q.v.) and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe saá¹…khÄra aniccÄ ... dukkhÄ). In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element (asaá¹…khata-dhÄtu), i.e. NibbÄna (e.g. in sabbe dhammÄ anattÄ, "all things are without a self"). ) D:To conclude dhamma includes nibbana because of " All things are without a self" assumes that nibbana is a thing , which I object.A thing in my understanding is part of the " ALL " of the 6 senses . The Dhamma about dhamma concerns the conditioned not the unconditioned (which refers to Nibbana, ). Up to now I could not get a reason why that should be otherwise. unquote , S: We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (III, Khandhaa-vagga, First Fifty, Ch 5, § 48, The Factors) that the Buddha, while he was at Saavatthii, explained to the monks about the five khandhas : I will teach you, monks, the five khandhas and the five khandhas that have to do with grasping. Do you listen to it. S: Any rupa is rupa khandha and so on. Each one is a reality. See the sutta quotes on this I quoted to you before. If they were not realities, the Buddha would not talk about understanding their impermanence and so on. D: yes He refers to the groupings of designated dhammas..anicca,anatta ... > Please compare with following I copied from Wiki 'Skandha' (hopefully the copy appears close to the orginal > (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha ) The scheme is nice , but -I.M.H.O. - fails with the classification of the citta > > . > "The Abhidhamma and post-canonical Pali texts create a meta-scheme for the Sutta Pitaka's conceptions of aggregates, sense bases and dhattus (elements).[24] This meta-scheme is known as the four paramatthas or four ultimate realities ... S: In other words, whether we're talking about khandhas, ayatanas or dhatus, they are all realities, all dhammas. > D: you don't agree to " each conditioned reality belongs to the (5/3/2) 'classificatory grouping ' , do you ? ;-) ... S: Each dhamma is a khandha, ayatana and dhatu. Visible object is rupa khandha. Sound is rupa khandha. Rupa khandha clarifies what these realities have in common. They are rupa khandha, not nama khandha. The same applies to the other terms - they help us understand the nature of different realities as anatta. ... > > S:If this were not so, the Buddha would not refer to the impermanence of khandhas over and over again as shown in the suttas I quoted from. > > D: no doubt the khandas in perspective of a living being are impermanent due the breakdown and coming together at death and (re)birth . > Another aspect is if the moment or the life is concerned ... we need to have a closer look to respective suttas. > Perhaps it is a matter of speech ..in a way : yes, basically right ..but nitpicking (?) :-) ... S: At this moment there are khandhas arising and falling away. This shows us there is no living being in reality at all. D: arising and falling away are the phenomena/dhammas of the 6senses media .. ...> S:The English translation 'aggregate' is totally misleading imho. > > D: my dictionary says 'a total number or amount made up of smaller amounts that are collected together' > would you consider that misleading? ... S: Let's stick to the Pali term khandha. It refers to each dhamma ("whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near") as impermanent as rupa khandha, vedana khandha, sanna khandha, sankhara khandha or vinnanna khandha. No self, no being, no other conditioned dhammas but khandhas. D: sticking to khandha sounds good , but still does not solve our different understanding 'abstract/concept or real', does it? with Metta Dieter #124888 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:07 am Subject: Jump from unawakened citta to maggaphala truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, Does one have to: 1) Work with unawakened, ignorant citta, purifying it little by little to reach maggaphala. or 2) Maggaphala cannot be reached by gradually developing ordinary, unawakened citta, - and some sort of sudden qualitative jump from ignorance to wisdom is required first. Which option do you think is correct and why? With best wishes, Alex #124889 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Nina; Ken H. and Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E and all, > Op 11-jun-2012, om 6:46 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > If the detail given is pointing towards a dhamma that has nothing > > to do with the physical body as conventionally described, then one > > must have some idea of what sort of dhamma is indicated by such a > > specific conventional term. Isn't that a reasonable demand, if one > > is to do justice to the commentaries and the people who bothered to > > write them? > ------ > N: You are right, Rob. The whole matter is not so complicated. The > Atthasalini speaks about several meanings of eye: eye of flesh and > eye of insight. The latter is fivefold: all-seeing eye of the Buddha, > eye of knowledge, eye of Dhamma, etc. > Eye of flesh, ma"msa cakkhu is twofold: compound organ (sasambhaara > cakkhu), and sentient organ. Compound organ: a lump of flesh, > situated in the cavity of the eye, etc. > Sentient organ: the pasada ruupa and this is situated in and bound to > the compound organ. It is no bigger in size than the head of a louse. > ------ > Nina. > > > Thank you, Nina, for this helpful clarification. As I read it, I believe it verifies the point of view that Rob K. was expressing - that there is a relationship in terms of location and/or function, between the physical organ that we see and the "living" function that actually takes place in the "sentient organ." They are not related in the sense that the "lump of flesh" is not the sentient organ, but they are related as a point of reference and in terms of living within the same structural area - not sure exactly how to put that. I wonder what Ken H. will think of this? Ken, does this accord with your understanding, or do you find that it contradicts your sense of the "non-physicality" of the sense bases, and the reference of the sense-bases and functions in conventional terms? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #124890 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:45 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Ken H., Rob K., and Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > >RE: Rob K. taking literally that the ear-base is in the center of the physical > ear, as the commentators directly state, > -------------- > > KH: The commentaries do directly state that, don't they? But then the commentaries and the Tipitaka state a lot of things in conventional language. None of it relates to conventional realities, however. It all relates to the fleeting, conditioned world taught uniquely by the Buddha. So why would they give a specific physical location for the ear-base, or heart-base, if it is just a non-physical reference to an ultimate reality? Can you think of any possible reason - I can't. Why make up a conventional location and be very specific about it in order to refer to something that has nothing to do with a conventional spatial location? It just doesn't make any sense at all, if looked at from the point of view you are espousing. Look, if there was an "absolute" version of something that did relate to the physical ear, like a different level of what hearing really is, but which still does correspond to the ear and its version of hearing, then the specific location could indicate what occurs there in a deeper way, but in the way you are saying that it is just a conventional way of indicating something that is wholly other than the conventional designation, it makes absolutely no sense to give specific physical locations. It just directly contradicts, in my view, what you are claiming. It's like me saying "Come to a party at my house at 7 pm," and when you show up I say "Oh there's really no party, I was just using that as a conventional way of indicating the general principal of "fun." And when you ask me why I gave a specific date and time in that case, what would I say? "I just like tricking people?" > -------------------- > > RE: also leaves a very good possibility for > meditation and other helpful conventional activities, > -------------------- > > KH: Rob K will not like to hear that! :-) :-) > <. . .> > >RE: I guess what it comes down to is whether you believe that we really have ears, > and that through attending their experience we can approach the citta that hears > and the reality of the heard object, or you believe that ears are a total > fabrication of mind. It does make a big difference for your practice whether > you believe a or b in that regard, and I guess amongst those who study > Abhidhamma and the commentaries, that issue is not completely settled. > ----------------------------- > > KH: Yes, ears do exist in ultimate reality, but only in the form of a single, fleeting conditioned dhamma, which is not at all like the permanent fleshy organs that worldlings believe in. Please see Nina's recent response to me on this subject, which I answered and included you in the greeting. Nina indicates that there are two aspects to the physical ear - the fleshy thing that we think of which has nothing to do with the dhamma of hearing, and the ear-base which does have a specific location in the ear, and is responsible for the actual hearing. Though it itself is not conventional, it does have a specific physical location in the conventional body. I would like to hear what you think of this authoritative Abhidhamma view of the matter, and what you think of both the description and what Nina says about it. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #124891 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Robert, I wasn't arguing against conditionality, but was including > volition within conditionality and taking exception to "no control" if that > means "no influence of volition". I would never say there is no volition, but the question in "no control" is whether there is anyone that has control, and the answer to that is 'no.' I agree with you that volition arises and does something, but I don't agree with the idea -- which I am not necessarily attributing to you -- that volition has "control" merely by arising to take its part in the chain of causation. Volition plays its role, but so do all the conditions that cause it to arise and that direct it through their influence. Volition, in other words, doesn't rise alone, and doesn't have an absolute effect, but is limited and tempered by all the other forces that arise with it. Alex thinks that at the moment of volition, in the final analysis volition can freely choose a or b. Conditions may have produce dth options, but then volition can pick its preferred option. That's something I would not agree with, because I believe volition too is conditioned in what it chooses. That leads to the question of what exactly is volition, and I don't currently have an exact answer to that. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #124892 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:48 am Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Rob E > > Thanks but no thanks, just want to study the texts, putthing dhs and relevant atth and sub-commentary passages together. Not intetested in your and other people's speculative interpretations and pet theories, personally. I guess I'm alone there. I'll stick to posting SPD passages now and then. You misunderstand me [should I say 'as usual?'] I'm not interested in airing any pet theories or speculations, just in understanding the texts. If you don't want to post them, which would actually be giving other people a chance to read and study them in this setting, that's your decision, but there's no need to make up your own speculative interpretations and pet theories about other people every chance you get. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #124893 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:02 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > As for the connection between dhammas and concepts, I don't know at this point. I largely take it similar to how RobE expressed it - when commentaries speak of conventional things, I take it as something pointing to dhammas now, rather than science. I also agree with RobE that a more substantial connection between dhammas and concepts would make most of the meditation methods valid. > > However, I'm also pretty sure RobK is not actually advocating existence of concepts. As for where exactly is the difference between your interpretations, my guess is that it has to do with the interpretation of the relationship between dhammas and concepts, and the related issue of whether concepts can then have characteristics such as "true", "correct", etc. The commentaries seem on their face to take the existence of ears and hearts as having some kind of actuality beyond just being pure creatures of thought. I think we can see the concept of an ear or heart as nonexistent and a kind of static imitation of constantly arising and falling dhammas, and still not get at whether there really is an ear or not. I think one way of looking at it would be to say that we all have the experience of the existence of ears, and that the commentaries are establishing a kind of gateway between what we see as physical locations and functions, and what they are pointing to as dhammas that correspond to those concepts, and that the connection is there even though, as you say, our concepts of those structures are not themselves ultimately real. Ken H. said that there is an ear, but it is a fleeting arising and falling rupa, not a permanent fleshy substance. If we take that seriously, can't we see the 'fleeing arising and falling rupa' that is imitated by the concept of the ear, and say that the experience of hearing corresponds to that rupa, which the concept points to? If we look inside of our concept of ear and go beyond it to the experience of hearing, we have entered the ear and then left it when we have found the rupa, which then replaces the concept of ear, which is no longer necessary at that moment of satipatthana. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #124894 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/11/2012 4:50:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > Robert, I wasn't arguing against conditionality, but was including > volition within conditionality and taking exception to "no control" if that > means "no influence of volition". I would never say there is no volition, but the question in "no control" is whether there is anyone that has control, and the answer to that is 'no.' ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: There is no "one" who does anything at all! (And that is because there just are no agents, no selves, no autonomous entities,) But within mind streams, volition and volitional actions occur and have effect. Some folks, it seems to me, due to their obsession with the concept of "no control", are genuinely inclined to disbelieve this, though they avoid directly voicing that disbelief. --------------------------------------------------------- I agree with you that volition arises and does something, but I don't agree with the idea -- which I am not necessarily attributing to you -- that volition has "control" merely by arising to take its part in the chain of causation. -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Volition is a mental operation that has consequences - that is, it is a condition - one of many - for future events. Since multiple conditions are required for events, volition does not control, but it does influence. (BTW, by "event" here, I refer to the arising & falling away of rupas and the occurrence & cessation of namas.) --------------------------------------------------------- Volition plays its role, but so do all the conditions that cause it to arise and that direct it through their influence. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, indeed. ----------------------------------------------------- Volition, in other words, doesn't rise alone, and doesn't have an absolute effect, but is limited and tempered by all the other forces that arise with it. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: I entirely agree. ---------------------------------------------------- Alex thinks that at the moment of volition, in the final analysis volition can freely choose a or b. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: Choice is conditioned. -------------------------------------------------- Conditions may have produce dth options, but then volition can pick its preferred option. That's something I would not agree with, because I believe volition too is conditioned in what it chooses. ------------------------------------------------- HCW: I think it possible that there be a probabilistic element involved, with the probablilities mainly determined by accumulations/inclinations. --------------------------------------------------- That leads to the question of what exactly is volition, and I don't currently have an exact answer to that. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: Maybe it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is! LOL! (More seriously, I think it is an impulse that enables the actualization of one option out of several. I think the Abhidhammic term 'impulsion' is a good one. ----------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124895 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Robert, I wasn't arguing against conditionality, but was including > > volition within conditionality and taking exception to "no control" if > that > > means "no influence of volition". > > I would never say there is no volition, but the question in "no control" > is whether there is anyone that has control, and the answer to that is 'no.' > ----------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > There is no "one" who does anything at all! (And that is because there > just are no agents, no selves, no autonomous entities,) But within mind > streams, volition and volitional actions occur and have effect. Some folks, > it seems to me, due to their obsession with the concept of "no control", are > genuinely inclined to disbelieve this, though they avoid directly voicing > that disbelief. I think it's a very sticky area, to understand how "selfless volition" really works. It's pretty fascinating to think about - no agent and yet there are impulses and choices made in the moment. Since there is no self, conditions have to cause the volition to arise. 'Conditions' sounds cold, but they include all the mental operations that lead up to various outcomes. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree with you that volition arises and does something, but I don't > agree with the idea -- which I am not necessarily attributing to you -- that > volition has "control" merely by arising to take its part in the chain of > causation. > -------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Volition is a mental operation that has consequences - that is, it is > a condition - one of many - for future events. Since multiple conditions > are required for events, volition does not control, but it does influence. I would agree with that. > (BTW, by "event" here, I refer to the arising & falling away of rupas and the > occurrence & cessation of namas.) > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Volition plays its role, but so do all the conditions that cause it to > arise and that direct it through their influence. > ----------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Yes, indeed. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Volition, in other words, doesn't rise alone, and doesn't have an absolute > effect, but is limited and tempered by all the other forces that arise > with it. > ----------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I entirely agree. > ---------------------------------------------------- Well I think we agree on this! > > Alex thinks that at the moment of volition, in the final analysis volition > can freely choose a or b. > -------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Choice is conditioned. > -------------------------------------------------- > > Conditions may have produce dth options, but then volition can pick its > preferred option. That's something I would not agree with, because I believe > volition too is conditioned in what it chooses. > ------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I think it possible that there be a probabilistic element involved, > with the probablilities mainly determined by accumulations/inclinations. > --------------------------------------------------- I think I would agree with that. > That leads to the question of what exactly is volition, and I don't > currently have an exact answer to that. > ----------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Maybe it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is! LOL! (More seriously, > I think it is an impulse that enables the actualization of one option out > of several. I think the Abhidhammic term 'impulsion' is a good one. > ----------------------------------------------- I agree with almost everything in that, except that I am skeptical at the moment of the idea of "options" which are mental fabrications. There are no options in the moment, only what is happening right now. When you make a choice, you only make one choice. Choosing between a and b is a mental operation, but it does not map directly to what you do when you actually do something. In that sense, choosing is just another happening that is dictated by choices, not in itself a real act of "choosing," since options in my view are fabrications. We look back and say "Oh he chose vanilla," and in our mind we think he could have chosen chocolate, but the chocolate option not taken is just a mental fabrication both before the taking of the vanilla, and afterwards. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #124896 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:46 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth philofillet Dear Rob E I don't believe you truly believe that it is necessary to understand Abhidhamma to understand suttas, I think you want to figure out Abhidhamma in a way that supplements your personal reading of suttas. If you are really honest with yourself, you might find that this is the case. As for pet theories, and speculative interpretations, and disuputation of the authenticity of Abhidhamma as the Buddha's teaching, oh, please, give me a break,they are rampant here. Unless moderation rules change (and there are no reason they should since people seem to be enjoying DSG as it is) it would be impossible to study Dhs. and Atth in a focussed way without constant derailing. Ignore the derailing? Yes, would be nice, but there are not conditions for that, for me. Carry on, no further comment. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rob E > > > > Thanks but no thanks, just want to study the texts, putthing dhs and relevant atth and sub-commentary passages together. Not intetested in your and other people's speculative interpretations and pet theories, personally. I guess I'm alone there. I'll stick to posting SPD passages now and then. > > You misunderstand me [should I say 'as usual?'] I'm not interested in airing any pet theories or speculations, just in understanding the texts. If you don't want to post them, which would actually be giving other people a chance to read and study them in this setting, that's your decision, but there's no need to make up your own speculative interpretations and pet theories about other people every chance you get. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - > #124897 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:50 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth philofillet Hello Lukas > I was ponder over yasmim samaye. And this is explained in Atthasalini. > > When the proper times come, when there are right causes, when there is an occasion, when there are a proper conditions or when the proper dhammas arise... then kusala, akusala, avyakataa dhammas arise and perform their functions. So no worries, no control, just different realities, when the proper time comes. We cannot change. > Just a couple of thoughts. > > I talked this with luraya. Shall I study morning evening, shall I study a lot, shall I take a rest for a while from reading. But not particular answer for that. Cause we expect a lot from reading, to condition more awarness, we expect right understanding to come and know all of this realities. But it's not in anyone control, when there is a proper time, they right understanding will arise and there will be light for that moments. So we just read and listen and learn. Ph: Yes, the time will come for me to study Dhs and Atth, or it won't. It is not now. I join Robert K and I'm sure others in saying that I look forward to meeting you someday. I have said that I would like to help sponsor your trip to Bangkok in January to meet Acharn Sujin. Keep it in mind. Phil #124898 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:59 pm Subject: spd 28 (a simile for khandas) philofillet Dear Group Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "The five khandas are objects of clinging, and this is shown in different similes. In the commentary to the Visudhimagga,the Paramattha Manjuusa (See Vis. XIV, 221, footnote 83) it is said that ruupakkhanda is like a dish because it bears the food which will bring happiness. Vedanaakkhandha is like the food in the dish. Sannakkhannda is like the curry sauce poured over the food that enhances its flavour; because, owing to the perception of beauty it hides the nature of the food that is feeling. Sannkaarakkhanda is like the server of the food being a cause of feeling. Vinnakkhandha is like the eater because it is helped by feeling." (p.220) (end of passage) phil #124899 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:20 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I don't believe you truly believe that it is necessary to understand Abhidhamma to understand suttas, I think you want to figure out Abhidhamma in a way that supplements your personal reading of suttas. And that belief is based on your own ruminations and prejudices. It's not based on reality, or on asking me - another human being - what I think or what I am actually trying to do. It's just ridiculous. > If you are really honest with yourself, you might find that this is the case. So you now consider yourself qualified to do Abhidhamma-based pschoanalysis of other people's motives. That's good for a laugh. The truth is, I am interested in the scriptures and want to read and understand them. I do that more easily in small bites in other people's company. I learn that way. That should be enough for you. Don't worry about my motives, just share the Dhamma. If you can't do that, then fine, go be "Phil" however you like. > As for pet theories, and speculative interpretations, and disuputation of the authenticity of Abhidhamma as the Buddha's teaching, oh, please, give me a break,they are rampant here. Unless moderation rules change (and there are no reason they should since people seem to be enjoying DSG as it is) it would be impossible to study Dhs. and Atth in a focussed way without constant derailing. That's a presumption. There have been no disputes, arguments or debates over your posting of Survey excerpts, from me or anyone else, so why do you think the Athasalini would be derailed? > Ignore the derailing? Yes, would be nice, but there are not conditions for that, for me. There hasn't been any derailing for you to ignore, except in your own mind. That's great to anticipate trouble, and use it as a reason not to share the Dhamma. > Carry on, no further comment. No further toxic comments are necessary from you, Phil. Carry on! And have fun keeping your unused Athasalini to yourself. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #124900 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:59 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ------ <. . .> > RK: When the Commentary says "true by way of conventional" does that not show the THERAS believed that what they said about heart and ear ect was true. ------ KH: Yes, they believed it was true" by way of conventional." I think in this context conventional means a belief that is customary or traditional. --------- > RK: They didn't think the earbase was in the foot, and they didn't think the heartbase was in the brain. . --------- KH: Hearing was customarily thought to be based in the ear. The customary consensus on mind-consciousness, however, was not so clear cut. I remember reading somewhere that people in the Buddha's time were divided in their opinions on the source of mind consciousness. And so (if I remember correctly) the Buddha in the suttas is quoted only as referring to "the organ in which mind consciousness is based." He did not put a mname to it and, in that way, he did not get involved in differences of customary, traditional, opinions. For one reason or another the commentaries decided in favour of the heart. But what does it matter anyway? It is only a conventional point and nothing ultimately to do with the Dhamma. ------------- > RK: "" But POPULAR discourse they teach consistently and in conformity with TRUTH according to the method selected. And highest-meaning discourse, too. `they teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected.' "" endquote If, as you say, no concepts are accurateor inaccurate(despite saying they got the heartbase location wrong- showing that you BELIEVE your concepts to be truer than theirs)what do they mean by saying in "POPULAR DISCOURSE THEY TEACH CONSISTENTLY and in conformity with TRUTH" ------------- KH: They mean consistent with customary or traditional belief. For satipatthana purposes that's all a concept needs to be. Ken H #124901 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:26 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi pt, ---- <. . .> > pt: . . . there seems to be a connection implied between dhammas and concepts and then our interpretation of what that means seems to vary over a wide range and that's where our differences show. ----- KH: Concepts are by definition products of thinking. That's all. --------------- <. . .> > pt: I suspect RobK also agrees that concepts do not exist in absolute reality. So, I think it's the issue of the relationship between concepts and dhammas that is actually giving us grief. --------------- KH: Or, more to the point, giving us an incentive to consider and discuss further. -------------------- > pt: My current take on this whole thing is that a "physical heart" can be known only through thinking (so as a concept), so it will never be known during a moment of satipatthana. I mean, a heart might as well be really "out there somewhere", just like trees and cars (and the related driving into trees), but I don't think that is something that can be verified in moments of satipatthana. --------------------- KH: Your thinking might have strayed beyond the bounds there. Satipatthana is the realisation that, here and now, there are only dhammas AND ALSO that, in the past and in the future there always have been, and always will be, only dhammas. (So never any people trees or car crashes.) ---------------------------- > pt: As for the connection between dhammas and concepts, I don't know at this point. I largely take it similar to how RobE expressed it - when commentaries speak of conventional things, I take it as something pointing to dhammas now, rather than science. --------------------------- KH: That sounds right to me too, but RE can be inconsistent in these matters. :-) -------------- > pt: I also agree with RobE that a more substantial connection between dhammas and concepts would make most of the meditation methods valid. However, I'm also pretty sure RobK is not actually advocating existence of concepts. As for where exactly is the difference between your interpretations, my guess is that it has to do with the interpretation of the relationship between dhammas and concepts, and the related issue of whether concepts can then have characteristics such as "true", "correct", etc. --------------- KH: Go with my interpretation :-) otherwise you will have to tell your children that they (as human beings) have lived previous lives and are receiving rewards and paying the price for the good and bad deeds done in those previous lives. It's very messy and unnecessary. Only dhammas (the five khnadhas) are born as the result of kamma. Ken H #124902 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:34 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > KH: Go with my interpretation :-) otherwise you will have to tell your children that they (as human beings) have lived previous lives and are receiving rewards and paying the price for the good and bad deeds done in those previous lives. It's very messy and unnecessary. > > Only dhammas (the five khnadhas) are born as the result of kamma. > > Ken H > Dear Kenh Do you mean statements like this" ""Beings are owners of kammas, student, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."endsutta I have told my chidren that sutta hundreds of times. and this one: ""Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn<>""" ________ You have several times harangued members for cherry picking parts of the tipitaka and suttas : would you be quoting the suttas above? robert #124903 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:49 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Dear KenH We never finished this old conversation, which relates to relationship between concept and reality: >>Hi Robert K, .. ---------------------------------- RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? ---------------------------------- KENH: I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical >procedure rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in favouring one conventional story over another. >The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka. << ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My opinion was that a doctor doing abortions is actually committing akusala kamma patha, and I thought he would have wrong view if he thought there was no akusala. But your take on it, I think, was that things like foetus, operation etc are concepts so no harm done in a paramattha sense. Is this still your interpretation? robert #124904 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 2. Love? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, I appreciated your reflections on the Dhammasangani - yes, all about the realities in our daily life - realities to be known now. Here is the second part of the article: ***** LOVE? We can begin to see the danger of accumulating strong attachment to a particular person as Khun Sujin further stressed. Sujin: "Be aware of the danger of having stronger lobha. It's vary hard to get rid of; always wanting to experience it. One is already attached, one is attached to oneself, to one's body and one wants to possess the other being as well — too much strong attachment. It's all for enjoying one's feeling. Feeling likes to feel that way very often. One wants to see more, to hear more, to touch more. Lobha lures everyone. Just one word, `love', and we can see its nature is only attachment and in the absolute sense it's attachment to one's own pleasant feeling. One clings to one's pleasant feeling by experiencing such an object — that being, that person or what one takes for a person. Feeling likes to feel that way. It's just feeling, not one's own. It's a conditioned reality, so it's not permanent, the kind that attachment is attached to." She also referred to "bursting with desire", to being "trapped and lured by attachment all the time," to "killing oneself and one's heart by one's attachment and ignorance." Attachment is like a trap or a bait. It's so attached to feelings and these don't belong to anyone. They're just conditioned, impermanent realities. I mentioned that it seems that society encourages these feelings. Sujin: "Society follows the individual's feeling because society comprises such individuals." ***** Metta Sarah ====== #124905 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi > > If, as you say, no concepts are accurateor inaccurate(despite saying they got > the heartbase location wrong- showing that you BELIEVE your concepts to be truer > than theirs)what do they mean by saying in "POPULAR DISCOURSE THEY TEACH > CONSISTENTLY and in conformity with TRUTH" > ------------- > > KH: They mean consistent with customary or traditional belief. For satipatthana purposes that's all a concept needs to be. > ______________ Dear KenH what is your interpretaion of this sutta: > """Since there is another world, one who holds the view that there is not holds a wrong view. Since there is another world, one who thinks that there is not has wrong thoughts. Since there is another world, one who says there is not uses wrong speech and is opposed to those Arahants who know there is another world. One who convinces another to accept this untrue Dhamma praises himself and disparages others, thus any former morality he had is abandoned and replaced with bad conduct. All of these various unwholesome things — wrong thought, wrong speech and so forth — have wrong view as their origin." robert #124906 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:32 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > KH: Go with my interpretation :-) otherwise you will have to tell your children that they (as human beings) have lived previous lives and are receiving rewards and paying the price for the good and bad deeds done in those previous lives. It's very messy and unnecessary. > > > > +++++++++ Dear Ken http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.123.than.html#jhana2 ""When he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Abhassara devas. The Abhassara devas, monks, have a life-span of two eons. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. "" What do you think the Abhassara realm is? or the hell realm? robert #124907 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' jonoabb Hi RobK and KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > RK: Your write that " > >> KEN: They would never have mixed >> conventional rality with absolute reality. They would never have said bodily >> organs (or any other concepts) possessed absolutely real characteristics. >> >> (If they had said such things they could have been easily pinned down in common, >> worldly debates.They could have been asked, for example, how starfish and >> jellyfish ) > > RK: Don't you think they are being specific here in the visuddhimagga: > Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV > > 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support > for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to > observe them. ... > > Did they make a mistake, or people like me are misunderstanding them, and in fact what they meant was that the heart base lies in teh brain? > > >KH: You and I both claim not to have any reservations about the >commentaries; we > >just understand them differently. > > RK: yes and one of us is very, very wrong. If it is me who is deluded and lost let's get it settled. I would invite sarah and jon , phil, scott and Nina to comment on this and help sort out these wrong views of mine. > =============== J: One of the difficulties of coming in on this thread, especially as it has developed since this message I am replying to was posted, is that it's not clear what the actual dhamma issue being discussed is (and I suspect that each of you has a different idea on that). So I'd like to put up the following as a possible statement of the dhamma issue: Can a dhamma (such as eye-base) have a location relative to a conventional object (such as the body or a specific bodily organ)? Or is any such notion a conventional one only? Is this the issue, please gentlemen? Jon #124908 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch I, 6. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Paramattha Mañjúsa”(commentary to the “Visuddhimagga”, quoted in Vis. Ch VII, note 9): “... Or it was through compassion that he faced the round of rebirths as a Bodhisatta and through understanding that he took no delight in it... Likewise it was through compassion that he became the world’s helper, and through understanding that he became his own helper...” Through compassion he faced the round of rebirths...through compassion he became the world’s helper, as has been stated in the text. Out of compassion he accumulated all the perfections for innumerable lives. In his last life as a Buddha he taught for fortyfive years out of compassion. He showed his compassion to his disciples every time he reminded them not to be heedless but to develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Thinking of the Buddha’s compassion can, even at this very moment, be a reminder for us to consider and investigate any reality which appears. We should remember that also thinking of the Buddha’s compassion is not self, but a nåma, arising because of conditions. When we read the beautiful sutta texts about the Buddha’s compassion and we are delighted about them without developing understanding whereto does it lead? During this pilgrimage Acharn Sujin said to me in the bus that whenever I feel delight about the words of a sutta it should remind me to develop right understanding at that very moment. She said that it is so sorrowful when paññå remains only at the level of theoretical level acquired through reading and considering texts. I still remember her words and they remind me to begin considering realities when I enjoy reading a sutta. Did the Buddha not teach so that even we, today, would know realities as they are, such as visible object or seeing? Also when we read suttas there is not only thinking; visible object appears too and so does seeing. Visible object should be known as a reality appearing through eyesense. Seeing should be known as a reality that experiences visible object, different from paying attention to what we read or delight about what we read. If we are forgetful of realities we forget the aim whereto the Buddha taught with such great compassion: to show us the way to penetrate the truth of realities and to be freed from defilements. -------- Nina. #124909 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:50 pm Subject: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" sarahprocter... Dear Pt, Jessica, Rob E & all, Here is an extract from our recent discussions in KK between K.Sujin & Jessica on understanding of breath which you may find interesting and relevant to recent discussions. K.Sujin likes to help us to see the ignorance of realities at the present moment! We all appreciated Jessica's contributions to the discussions with her good humour. ***** Jessica: I think what you're saying - no choice of object and place as object of awareness. Studying the Anapanasati Sutta, it's tempting to think of the breathing. Like Satipatthana Sutta, there's contemplation of different... body, kayanupassana. I guess there's no understanding when reading those suttas. There's a tendency to focus on a particular object. KS: Do you really know breath to be the object of right understanding? Jes: Sometimes do, sometimes not. KS: "Sometimes do" is not the understanding of breath because if there is the understanding of breath, you know breath anytime. Jes: I cannot know. KS: So how can you have breath as the object of understanding? It's only wanting to have it, selecting it to be [the] object to develop. Why not any reality because there is ignorance of everything when there's no right understanding of it? Jon: Yesterday, you [Jessica] mentioned that Satipatthana Sutta contained an instruction to understand breath as object. Is that right? KS: How could Buddha say that because he said all are anatta. So it's against his word. Jes: In the Satipatthana Sutta, there are 4 foundations. It's just - the structure - there's body and then there's breath and then.... KS: No, whenever breath is the object of awareness. Jes: Whenever - it appears. KS: Whenever. Does it now? Is it now the object? Jes: Not now. KS: So when? Jes: Sometimes, for example, lying down on the bed, breathing. KS: Breathing is not breath because breath is conditioned by citta. No matter while one is asleep, whenever there is citta, there is breath. So what you take for breath - is it that which is conditioned by citta? Or, you are breathing in and out, just breathing in and out? That is the movement of the dhatu, vayo dhatu [S: air element]. In and out - is it that which is conditioned by citta anytime? Jes: Yes. KS: No. Anytime even while one is fast asleep. Not breathing in and out like you are doing [in the] morning or anytime. Jes: That's rupa, right? That's the body. KS: We don't have to use the word rupa if we don't know that that characteristic cannot experience at all. It has its own characteristic, like cold is cold, hot is hot, solidity is hard, something like that. It has its own characteristic. No one can make it to be that way. So what's breath? You call it breath, but what is it? Jes: That is the wind, movement, that's the air going... KS: So it's like the air or what? It does not appear now, so what appears? It depends on right understanding whether it's enough to be condition for the arising of awareness to understand that, to understand, not to have sati only. But if sati is not there, right understanding cannot develop. It's just normal rupa in daily life without any understanding. *** Metta Sarah ====== #124910 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:11 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ----- <. . .> > RK: You have several times harangued members for cherry picking parts of the tipitaka and suttas : would you be quoting the suttas above? ----- KH: Yes, I especially love suttas that seem, at the superficial level, to be teaching the exact opposite of anatta. I love the enormous contrast between their ordinary, and their profound, interpretations. I think the suttas call it cosmos shaking. :-) Ken H #124911 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:16 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear KenH > We never finished this old conversation, which relates to relationship between concept and reality: <. . .> -------- KH: When you are discussing akusala kamma patha I wish you would choose an example other than abortion. I am bitterly opposed to the Right to Life movement. They are mean, two-faced, judgemental extremists who have no objections to other forms of killing (including war and capital punishment) but love to persecute women in distress and the doctors who try to help them. So it is a touchy subject with me, and probably the less I say about it the better. Ken H #124912 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:56 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > > Dear KenH > > We never finished this old conversation, which relates to relationship between concept and reality: > <. . .> > -------- > > KH: When you are discussing akusala kamma patha I wish you would choose an example other than abortion. I am bitterly opposed to the Right to Life movement. They are mean, two-faced, judgemental extremists who have no objections to other forms of killing (including war and capital punishment) but love to persecute women in distress and the doctors who try to help them. > > So it is a touchy subject with me, and probably the less I say about it the better. > > Ken H > Dear Kenh the thing is, is that abortion is very daily life right? Good news is is that it has now declined (if that is good news? ) to only 40 million every year worldwide http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/worldwide_abortion_statistics/•T"The number of induced abortions declined worldwide between 1995 and 2003, from nearly 46 million to approximately 42 million. About one in five pregnancies worldwide end in abortion." and the other thing is is the many references in the Tipitaka; such as it being a parijika if a women follows a monks advice to have an abortion. Anyway we can leave it at that. robert #124913 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:31 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Hi RobE, Thanks for your comments. > The commentaries seem on their face to take the existence of ears and hearts as having some kind of actuality beyond just being pure creatures of thought. I think we can see the concept of an ear or heart as nonexistent and a kind of static imitation of constantly arising and falling dhammas, and still not get at whether there really is an ear or not. pt: Yes, maybe. I don't know really. As apparent from the discussion so far, there's a range of interpretations of what the commentaries are really saying. Atm, what KenH is saying seems right to me. So, at this point, I'd prefer to leave it and see what can be gathered from discussion between KenH, RobK and Jon. Best wishes pt #124914 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:39 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Hi KenH, > KH: Your thinking might have strayed beyond the bounds there. Satipatthana is the realisation that, here and now, there are only dhammas AND ALSO that, in the past and in the future there always have been, and always will be, only dhammas. (So never any people trees or car crashes.) :) Yes, I figured you were going to say that. > KH: Go with my interpretation :-) otherwise you will have to tell your children that they (as human beings) have lived previous lives and are receiving rewards and paying the price for the good and bad deeds done in those previous lives. It's very messy and unnecessary. No worries there, when it comes to concepts and dhammas, your interpretation seems along the lines of what seems right to me. But I would like to understand what RobK is saying as well regarding concepts having characteristics. Best wishes pt #124915 From: "Jessica" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:05 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth jessicamui Hello Phil, Lukas, Sarah, Jon, Nina and all, Sarah posted earlier about the 1-month long Abhidhamma course in HK that is just finished last week. As a result of that, I want to spend some time to read through the original 6 volumns (the Yamaka is not translated into English) to find out what were originally recorded by the elders.I will post my questions and findings here and hope people can share their knowledge about Abhidhamma. Sarah and Jon, it was really nice to catch up with you last Sunday. I may join you again this coming Sunday. With Metta, Jessica. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > For some time i was studying Dhammasangani. When I found english translation, that I didnt find good, I started to read in paali. I was also thinking a lot how shall i study it. But I think there is no particular way. Just read and see how this leads to consideration. Kusala dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, avyakata dhammaa. It seems so simply, but it's so deep and profound. seeing, hearing,..bodily impressions are avyakata dhammaa, there are all the time in our life, now. kusala and akusala dhammaa follows, without anyone there. Knowing shape and form, all this people it may be kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa. Even I dont understand this realities. I still can consider, this are not self. Just mental activities now, that follows, it's own way. And nimitta comes. Each word of Blessed One words in Dhammasangani are so high and profound and that really needs so huge understanding that must be accumulated. We can for now think only of staories, but they are real. This is a faith I think. I think we need more and more saddha to understand them. We just study them, but no expectations. Right understanding, that may come or not is really conditioned and this is sankhara khandha that must gradually accumulated. But I think the point is to read and learn them even a little n our life, and I think it is helpful. > > I was ponder over yasmim samaye. And this is explained in Atthasalini. > > When the proper times come, when there are right causes, when there is an occasion, when there are a proper conditions or when the proper dhammas arise... then kusala, akusala, avyakataa dhammas arise and perform their functions. So no worries, no control, just different realities, when the proper time comes. We cannot change. > Just a couple of thoughts. > > I talked this with luraya. Shall I study morning evening, shall I study a lot, shall I take a rest for a while from reading. But not particular answer for that. Cause we expect a lot from reading, to condition more awarness, we expect right understanding to come and know all of this realities. But it's not in anyone control, when there is a proper time, they right understanding will arise and there will be light for that moments. So we just read and listen and learn. > Best wishes > Lukas > > > > Can anyone come up with and lead a dhs/atth study corner? I can't but perhaps a portion of the bounteous debate virya could be rechanneled into textual study? I have no time, alas and I guess pt doesn't either, or has lost focus, I can relate to that, no control over that. > > > > phil > > > #124916 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Dear Jon KENH has indicated he doesn't believe the ancients got it right when they said the heartbase was in the blood inside the physical conventional heart (they did get it right about the earbase though). I say they did get it right. is that clear enough ? robert -- > > =============== > > J: One of the difficulties of coming in on this thread, especially as it has developed since this message I am replying to was posted, is that it's not clear what the actual dhamma issue being discussed is (and I suspect that each of you has a different idea on that). > > So I'd like to put up the following as a possible statement of the dhamma issue: > > Can a dhamma (such as eye-base) have a location relative to a conventional object (such as the body or a specific bodily organ)? Or is any such notion a conventional one only? > > Is this the issue, please gentlemen? > > Jon > #124917 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:10 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Dear Jon' in the useful posts )chosen by you and sarh according to the links) there is this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/120525 written by you where you cite Nyantoloka: From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' Paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desaná) 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohára-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohára-vacana). ... It should be noted, however, that also statements of the Buddha couched in conventional language, are called 'truth' (vohára-sacca), being correct on their own level, which does not contradict the fact that such statements ultimately refer to impermanent and impersonal processes. ... ++++++++++++++== NOTE THAT they are still VOHARA -SACCA. they are true. robert --- #124918 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:14 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 From Connie: ---Masefield. Cy to Itivuttaka. The Pile of Bones Sutta (vol.1 pp207-216) ...skip, skip, skip... << Two truths did the Self-Enlightened One, best of speakers, proclaim: that in conventional usage and that in the highest sense, no third being discovered. That utterance upon which there is agreement is true by reason of the world's conventional usage, that utterance involving the highest sense being true in that its characteristic is that of being accordant with such dhammas. Therefore, when the Teacher, the Saviour of the World, who is skilled in modes of speech, utilises the mode of speech that is conventional usage, that mode of speech is itself ariyan. And, moreoever, the Lord talks "individual-talk" for eight reasons: (i) for the sake of elucidating a sense of shame and a fear of reproach; (ii) for the sake of elucidating the fact that one's deeds are one's own; (iii) for the sake of eluciating [sic] individual human agency; (iv) for the sake of elucidating immediacy [of karmic result]; (v) for the sake of elucidating the Brahmavihaaras; (vi) for the sake of elucidating former dwelling; (vii) for the sake of elucidating the purification of a donation; and (viii) for the sake of not abandoning the world's conventional usage. (i) For when "The khandhas, elements and bases experience shame, experience a fear of reproach" is said, people do not understand, they enter upon confusion, or else they become argumentative, saying: "How can it be said that the khandhas, elements and bases experience shame, experience a fear of reproach?" But when "A woman experiences shame, experiences a fear or reproach ... a man ... a ksatriya ... a brahmin [experiences shame, experiences a fear of reproach]" is said, they understand, they do not enter upon confusion, nor do they become argumentative. Therefore, the Lord talks "individual-talk" for the sake of elucidating a sense of shame and a fear of reproach. (ii) This same is the method also when "The khandhas ... elements ... bases are those for whom their deeds are their own" is said. Therefore, the Lord talks "individual-talk" also for the sake of elucidating the fact that one's deeds are one's own. < .... snip .... > (viii) the Lord Buddhas do not abandon the world's conventional usage, they teach Dhamma abiding solely by how something is correctly known in the [outside] world, by the language used in the [outside] world, by those expressions used in the [outside] world. Therefore, the Lord talks "individual-talk" also for the sake of not abandoning the world's conventional usage. It was in indicating a matter that was to be taught by way of the world's mode of speech that he said "Of a single individual" and so on in the present case too. ===== #124919 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:13 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > I would like to understand what RobK is saying as well regarding concepts having characteristics. > > Best wishes > pt > Where did I say concepts have characteristics. How about citing me instead of putting words in my mouth that I would never say and have never said. robert #124920 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:29 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Here is a conversation I had about 10 years ago on another website: Robert:The visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadaya-vatthu (heart basis): they describe the heart and then note that inside the heart "there is hollow the size of a punnaga seeds bed where half a pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur." Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis occurs with this blood as its support". ************************************************************ Ranjith: I have read this part of the Visuddimagga written in Sinhala. Sinhala version used the word "patha" in place of "pastata". In Sinhala, the 'patha' is a measure for liquid which accounts for about 100 mili liters. Therefore, half a 'patha' could be about 50 ml. My belief is the human heart contains much more quantity of blood in it at any given time. If we want to take it as it is probably, we can assume that the 'Vinnana' can resides in the hadaya-vatthu' as long as there is half a patha of blood in there. ************** Robert: You see the actual hadaya-vatthu is incredibly sublime - in scientific measure it wouldn't even amount to a tiny fraction of a gram. It might even be so refined as to be unmeasuarable by scientific instruments. ********* Ranjith: In this statement what do you refer to by the word of hadaya-vatthu? ************************************************************ Robert: What is essential to realise is that hadaya-vatthu (heart base) is not the heart nor is it the blood in the heart that we can see. It is a special type of rupa that is conditioned only by kamma and it arises in association with some of the blood in the heart. In the space of a flash of lightning more than a billion moments of hadaya-vatthu have arisen and fallen away. If we think of heart in conventional terms (and mistake this for hadaya-vatthu) we are lost in the world of concept- and will not understand the deep meaning in the Visuddhimagga. _____________________________________________________________ Ranjith: However, I still can not understand what answers I have for following questions. If the seat of the Vinnana is the hadaya-vatthu; 1. What would happen to the Vinnana during the time of an open heart surgery where the heart is inactive for the function of pumping blood? 2. Does the Vinnana get changed from one heart tissue to another in case of the heart transplant? 3. Where does Vinnana reside during the period of tissue transition (several hours)? 4. In case of using an artificial heart, we can assume that engineers do not make any provision for the tiny heart hole' as they are not aware of the requirement. But we know the person who carry the 'heart pump' live normally. In this case what happens to the Vinnana? _______________________________________________ Robert: None of this can be surprising if we understand hadaya-vatthu. That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the body inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or anywher suitable. Vinnana lasts even a shorter time than the heartbase so there is no question of it going anywhere . Vinnana has no time to go anywhere- it can'tchange from tissue to anywhere. It arises, performs its function (depending on the type of vinnana) and immediatley falls away. But it conditions the next vinnana to arise. It is this continuity that deceives us into believing that things can last. Even if we think something lasts only for a split second we are still caught up in vipallasa of permanence. It is all much more ephemeral than that and so only vipassana that insights (not us) can understand the difference between nama and rupa and so overcome doubt on these matters. This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada rupa). The Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we think an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)The actual sensitive matter in the eye and ear is very refined. If someone dies then the ear-sense and eye sense (sotapasada and cakkhu-pasada ) are immediately no longer produced (they are produced by kamma only) yet one would not notice much outward change looking at the eye and ear(at least for the first few minutes before decomposition sets in). The same applies to the heart - the blood in the heart would have the same volume after death and yet the hadaya-vatthu is no longer present. ************************************************************ Ranjith: Yes, the 'pasada-rupa' is not the organ itself. But I think it is the name given to the ability of the 'rupa' (organ) to receive an 'arammana' in a specific form and translate that into another form of 'rupa' to send the message to 'Vinnana'(consciousness) which is constantly monitoring the 'six sense doors' for inputs. I have shown this process clearly in the diagram I have posted sometimes ago. ________________ Robert: The pasada rupa doesn't translate into anything. It arises and performs its function which is to be the base and meeting point for cakkhu-vinnana to arise and contact the rupa which is visible object. It is so anatta- so uncontrollable. the pasada is conditioned, the cakkhu vinnana is conditioned by different conditions, the rupa which is visible object (vanayatana or rupayatana) is conditioned by different conditions again. All of them so ephemeral and yet they all arise and meet. That is all life is- through different doors. Because of deep ignorance we imagine that we can control this process. Seeing into this process is understanding paticcasamupada. ________________ Ranjith: When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die immediately. But they don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor the sense doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after the death. That is the reason for me to use the words "permanent separation of the Mind from the Matter" to describe the death. However, the ability of some of those sense organs to function normally remain intact for sometime. That is how the surgeons use the Eye tissue of a dead person to transplant into another person, giving the vision to the second one. Removal of the eye tissue can take place even an hour after the death. I am aware of a situations where a medical team has recovered eyes of a dead man few hours after his death as the man died at home and relatives did not call the nearest Eye Bank for hours. _________________ Robert: You write ">RANJITH:When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die >immediately. But they don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor the sense doors and receive arammanas. This happens >immediately after the death." No. Immediately after cuticitta (death consciousness) arises (not even a split second delay)there are no more of any of the sense bases. They are all produced by kamma and already patisandicitta has arisen in/as a new existence - maybe in another world and another plane far from here. But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the pasada arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma. That is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and the sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging that there is to concept and story. robert #124921 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/11/2012 10:30:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I agree with almost everything in that, except that I am skeptical at the moment of the idea of "options" which are mental fabrications. There are no options in the moment, only what is happening right now. When you make a choice, you only make one choice. ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: What is choice? Is it not picking one event out of two or more possibilities? If there are no alternatives, then there is no probability either. ------------------------------------------------------- Choosing between a and b is a mental operation, but it does not map directly to what you do when you actually do something. ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: But that mental "operation" (or process) does occur, does it not? ------------------------------------------------------ In that sense, choosing is just another happening that is dictated by choices, not in itself a real act of "choosing," since options in my view are fabrications. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: What is that "happening dictated by choices"? --------------------------------------------------- We look back and say "Oh he chose vanilla," and in our mind we think he could have chosen chocolate, but the chocolate option not taken is just a mental fabrication both before the taking of the vanilla, and afterwards. -------------------------------------------- HCW: Certainly choosing is mental. But why is it called "choosing", and what exactly is going on? (You agreed to the possibility of a probabilistic element being involved. What exactly are you agreeing to when you agree with that?) =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #124922 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Dear Jon, I did not see your letter to the Bhante on the web: It would be good to see it there. They have on that web a kind of box for remarks, and you have to give there your name and Email. Nina. Op 11-jun-2012, om 17:33 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > J: Thanks, Chris, but I think the only comment of substance I made > was regarding the limited significance, as I see it, of `proving' > that the Ahidhamma Pitaka came after the time of the Buddha. I have > now posted a comment on the Ven.'s website to that effect (see copy > below). > > Someone else has already commented on the Ven's treatment of the > sense-door objects, and I have posted a `Reply' to that person's > comment (also copied below) > #124923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heartbase, no 1. nilovg Dear Rob K, I very much enjoyed your old post. Op 12-jun-2012, om 14:29 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Robert:The visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadaya-vatthu (heart > basis): they describe the heart and then note that inside the heart > "there is hollow the size of a punnaga seeds bed where half a > pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the > mind element and mind-consciousness element occur." Note that it is > not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu NOR is it the blood > inside the heart but rather as the Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii > note 5 ) says "the heart basis occurs with this blood as its support". ------ N: I can add from my Visuddhimagga studies: < "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 60. > > 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the > (material) support for the mind-element and for the > mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. N: to observe: the Pali has: aadhaarana: the meaning is: being a container, foundation, support, holding up. In the five khandha planes where there are nama and rupa, cittas need a physical base, foundation. They do not arise independently of the body. The five sense-cognitions have the sense bases as physical support, and all the other cittas, namely, mind-element and the mind-consciousness- element (see explanation in the other post) have as support what is called the heartbase, an infinitely tiny rupa arising and falling away. Text: It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on > the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of > the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. N: let us first look at the footnote : text: Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour > of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a > lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is > smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofah > gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in > those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is a > hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of > blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and > mind-consciousness element occur. N: We have to go back in time centuries and centuries. What was the intention of the commentators? To see the heartbase as not worth clinging to, not beautiful. It is only the tiniest element performing a function. The last sentence is the core: The reality of that base is expressed by means of conventional terms to help people at that time to understand it correctly. We should not reject the terms used here, but consider what is really essential. Blood, inside the heart: we have to understand the rupa dhamma these words stand for. That is what really matters. ------- Nina. #124924 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:10 am Subject: Heartbase, no 2. nilovg Dear Rob K and friends, continuation about the heartbase, conversation with Larry: Larry: I see that the Vism. commentary says the heartbase is to be known "from > scriptures and from reasoning", in other words, conceptually. N: I am glad you mention this. We have to return to the Pali text: How can this be known? aagamato: by the scriptures. Yuttito: by application. There is nothing about logical reasoning in the Pali text, this is too limited. Yutta: yoked, connected, applied to. You see here that this is a much larger meaning? Applied not just by thinking, it can be by direct experience. From the scriptures, yes, had the Buddha not taught us, we would not know that there is a heart- base. People may doubt again. Only the sotapanna has eradicated doubt. By the development of satipatthana he has realized by direct experience many realities. Suppose many are realized but not all, this does not give rise to doubt, because of the confidence in the Dhamma has become unshakable. Because of direct experience through panna, confidence becomes steadfast and firm. A Summary about heartbase: Rob K's posts have rendered many questions people may have about the heart, transplantation of heart, etc. He also explained that we may be clinging to an idea of my heart, but that the heartbase is a very subtle rupa that can only be experienced through the mind-door. Although we cannot experience it now, what can we learn about this? It is the physical basis for many cittas, included in mind-element and mind-consciousness element. It is a condition for other realities and it itself is conditioned by kamma which keeps on producing it throughout life, on and on. We are in a five khandha plane, meaning, what we call *we* are nama and rupa. Each citta takes a new base (be it sensebase or heartbase), except during the last javanacittas of a life which all depend on one heartbase. This study helps us to see at least intellectually, that the heartbase and the cittas that depend on it are very temporary, beyond control and not to be taken for mine or self. All these studies of details we do now are accumulated as a foundation so that later on panna can arise which understands the true nature of dhammas. ***** Nina. #124925 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heartbase, no 2. moellerdieter Dear Nina,all, I haven't paid much attention to the issue of heartbase (stated to be the base of cognition ), assuming non- canonical sources however I am surprised about the findings of a cardiologist (dr. paul pearsall 'The Heart's code' ) , reporting about more than 70 cases where certain character traits of the donor seemingly had been 'transfered ' to the recipient. well..... with Metta Dieter #124926 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:33 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi Robert K and Jon, --- > KH: KENH has indicated he doesn't believe the ancients got it right when they said the heartbase was in the blood inside the physical conventional heart (they did get it right about the earbase though). --- KH: May I repeat for the millionth time that I don't believe the ear-base rupa is located in the conventionally known ear base. Nor do I believe the mind-base rupa is located in the conventionally known mind base. And I don't care which conventionally known mind base (the heart or the brain) we are talking about. I don't believe it matters which conventionally known mind base is more scientifically accurate; I think the commentaries were just using a conventional designation for describing the mind and the mind-base. However, I would advise people (if they wanted my advice) not to harass scientists and teachers who choose to believe the brain is the scientifically known base of consciousness. Conventional science does not concern itself with namas and rupas. Nor should it. Ken H #124927 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:27 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > If, as you say, no concepts are accurateor inaccurate(despite saying they got > > the heartbase location wrong- showing that you BELIEVE your concepts to be truer > > than theirs)what do they mean by saying in "POPULAR DISCOURSE THEY TEACH > > CONSISTENTLY and in conformity with TRUTH" > > ------------- > > > > KH: They mean consistent with customary or traditional belief. For satipatthana purposes that's all a concept needs to be. > > > ______________ > Dear KenH > what is your interpretaion of this sutta: > > > > """Since there is another world, one who holds the view that there is not holds a wrong view. Since there is another world, one who thinks that there is not has wrong thoughts. Since there is another world, one who says there is not uses wrong speech and is opposed to those Arahants who know there is another world. One who convinces another to accept this untrue Dhamma praises himself and disparages others, thus any former morality he had is abandoned and replaced with bad conduct. All of these various unwholesome things — wrong thought, wrong speech and so forth — have wrong view as their origin." > robert Dear Kenh any comment on this sutta and its meaning? Anything? robert #124928 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:18 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Dear Robert K (& Ken H), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Vism. VIII, 111. > This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour of the back of a > red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a lotus bud with the outer > petals removed and turned upside down; it is smooth outside, and inside it is > like the interior of a kosataki (loofah gourd). In those who possess > understanding it is a little expanded; in those without understanding it is > still only a bud. Inside it there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed > where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the > mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.>> > > Did they make a mistake, or people like me are misunderstanding them, and in fact what they meant was that the heart base lies in the brain? >....I would invite sarah and jon , phil, scott and Nina to comment on this and help sort out these wrong views of mine. .... S: It's in the text so we assume it's correct! However, I'm not sure it matters very much where the texts say the exact location of heart-base (or eye-base for that matter - we read similarly intricate descriptions in the texts) is. Isn't it beyond our understanding anyway? As I think you'll both agree, pariyatti is always about reality - reality which can be known now. Sometimes I think we tend to follow the words, floating in "a sea of concepts", as K.Sujin would say, instead of understanding what appears now - seeing, visible object, thinking, agitation, attachment and so on. No matter what is said here, what appears now? Isn't this the only way to become detached from the idea of 'someone' and 'some thing', of person, body, heart and brain? When we read the commentaries we may forget that they are showing the Buddha's wisdom. Who can directly know haddaya-vatthu and where it arises now? The 5 sense bases beginning with eye-sense are 'gross' rupas, along with the objects experienced through the senses and yet is there any awareness of them now? If not, how can there be awareness of the subtle rupas? So, I think we need to be clear on the purpose of our study in order to develop an understanding of dhammas as anatta, not just to learn details which we'll just forget at the end of this life. I remember K.Sujin saying that when she reads these kinds of details she knows they're beyond anything we can directly know and that she knows no one can answer intricate questions on hadaya vatthu or eye-sense (such as on exact location), from their own wisdom. What we do know for sure is that whatever we read about, it must be pointing to cittas, cetasikas and rupas - that's all there are in reality! Metta Sarah ====- #124929 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:26 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch I, 7. nilovg Dear friends, In the Jåtakas, the “Birth Stories”, we read about the many virtues the Bodhisatta accumulated, even during the lives when he was an animal. We can read about his practice of dåna, for example in the “Vessantara Jåtaka”(no. 547). We read about his life as Prince Vessantara. He was born with his eyes open and immediately after his birth, holding out his hand to his mother, he said:”Mother, I wish to make some gift; is there anything?” One by one he gave away all his goods in alms and he was banished because of his charity. While he was in exile, he even gave away his children and when Sakka, the King of the devas of the “thirtythree” came to him in disguise he gave away his wife. Then, however, his wife and children were restored to him. This story may be misunderstood, but we should consider the point that is emphasized: he did not want to keep anything for himself, he was prepared to sacrifice even what was dearest to him. During our journey we talked about the value of giving. Giving is important because it will help us to become less attached to our property. Generosity is a way of giving up one’s defilements. So long as we are stingy and cling to our property paññå cannot be developed to the degree that it can bring about detachment from nåma and rúpa. The aim of vipassanå is detachment from the concept of self and later on from all kinds of nåma and rúpa. The Buddha had accumulated the highest degree of generosity. He had given up everything in order to help other beings to find the truth. As a Bodhisatta he had accumulated the highest degree of dåna and of all other virtues so that there were conditions for complete detachment from all nåma and rúpa when he attained enlightenment. At that moment all defilements were eradicated. He who had practised generosity to the utmost gave people the best of gifts: he taught them the Path leading to the end of all sorrow. ******* Nina. #124930 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:33 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Dear Rob K & Ken H, Both correct! A good discussion. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > RK: For instance, do you think a frog could be instantly reborn in a deav world, or as a human? Or should we look to science and evoloution to explain that? > > -------- > > > > KH: I think you are asking "According to the Dhamma, is a frog (a sentient being) reborn? Is it not reborn? Is it both reborn and not reborn? Is it neither born nor not reborn?" > > > > I think the answers in the suttas to that kind of question are along the lines of, `The rebirth citta arises dependent on past kamma . . ." ... S: Yes, just cittas, cetasikas, rupas. Cuti citta (death citta) arising according to the past kamma which conditioned the patisandhi citta (birth citta) and bhavanga cittas of that life which we call 'frog', and then the new patisandhi citta of the 'deva' conditioned by the kamma just before death. ... > > ++++++++++++ > > Here is the story (by Buddhaghosa)i the commentary to teh Vimanavatthu: > In the time of the Buddha, a frog listened to the voice of the Buddha preaching a sermon to a human audience. The frog was absorbed in the dhamma. Then a cowherd came upon the scene and being deeply impressed by the Buddha's splendour in delivering the sermon and the faithful audience, he stood there leaning on his staff. He was not aware that his staff was resting on the frog's head. The frog died on the spot while it was absorbed in the sweet voice of the Dhamma. And it was reborn in the Tavatimsa Deva World. (Verses 857 – 860, Vimanavatthu Pali; Manduka­devaputta­vimana­vatthu, Vimanavatthu-atthakatha, Khuddaka-nikaya) In this story the frog was reborn as a deity (deva), because of its good deeds, mainly because of its attention to the voice of the Buddha or the voice of dhamma. Although in reality, the frog could not understand the meaning of the sermon, but it recognised the voice of harmlessness. It could rejoice in the soothing voice of the great Buddha""" > > is that what you meant? .... S: No confusion as long as we remember it's just about cittas, cetasikas and dhammas. It just depends on the understanding when we read such stories. I appreciate the reminders that we never know what citta will arise from moment to moment and how it's impossible to select any dhamma, even death consciousness or the avoidance of it. When it's time for kamma to bring its result now or then, that's it! Here's a link to the discussion we had at the foundation on this story which I transcribed before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/121934 Metta Sarah ===== #124931 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > S: It can be a dhamma (nimitta) or a concept of a dhamma. Better not to try and "pin-point" the fine-line! > > > :) Yeah, fat chance that advice is going to work for me. I like to think abut this stuff too much. Hopefully in Manly I'll get to bother you some more on this topic. ... S: :) I know, I understand..... The point was just that if we're trying to 'work out' whether it's reality, nimitta or concept being experienced now, then for sure the present reality is thinking - that too can be known. Looking forward to being "bothered" in Manly soon. Let us know when it suits you. If anyone else can join for discussions, let us know. Metta Sarah ==== #124932 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:57 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Robert K (& Ken H), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Vism. VIII, 111. > > This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour of the back of a > > red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a lotus bud with the outer > > petals removed and turned upside down; it is smooth outside, and inside it is > > like the interior of a kosataki (loofah gourd). In those who possess > > understanding it is a little expanded; in those without understanding it is > > still only a bud. Inside it there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed > > where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the > > mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.>> > > > > Did they make a mistake, or people like me are misunderstanding them, and in fact what they meant was that the heart base lies in the brain? > > >....I would invite sarah and jon , phil, scott and Nina to comment on this and help sort out these wrong views of mine. > .... > S: It's in the text so we assume it's correct! > > However, I'm not sure it matters very much where the texts say the exact location of heart-base (or eye-base for that matter - we read similarly intricate descriptions in the texts) is. Dear Sarah and so why did you put this pointless post I made about heart base in the "useful posts" file: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5395 Why not put it in a special USELESS posts file? For that matter why did the Commentaries bother with writing about it? Why did Nina add to her book on Physical Phenomena> ================= . I remember K.Sujin saying that when she reads these kinds of details she knows they're beyond anything we can directly know and that she knows no one can answer intricate questions on hadaya vatthu or eye-sense (such as on exact location), from their own wisdom. > >++++++ We have been reading from Nina;s book at the meeting in Thaialnd, and Khun Sujin is very clear that she thinks they are exactly right about the heart base. robert #124933 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth sarahprocter... Hi Jessica, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica" wrote: > Sarah posted earlier about the 1-month long Abhidhamma course in HK that is just finished last week. As a result of that, I want to spend some time to read through the original 6 volumns (the Yamaka is not translated into English) to find out what were originally recorded by the elders.I will post my questions and findings here and hope people can share their knowledge about Abhidhamma. .... S: For others - Jessica was translating the evening and weekend lectures from English to Chinese, given by Dr Mehm Tin Mon for this entire period with all the most intricate of Abhidhamma and Pali detail. No mean feat at all, especially as I'm sure the Abhidhamma hasn't been translated into Cantonese before, so there wouldn't be any commonly used translation terms for the Pali words. As for your studies, Jessica, I highly recommend the "Guide to Conditional Relations" (PTS, by Narada) written by the translator of the first text of the Patthana. Also, I'd recommend reading the Atthasalini (Expositor) with the Dhammasangani (Kline transl best) and also the comy with the Vibhanga when you come to that! Actually, I've only ever used the texts for reference, rather than just 'reading through', but those are my accumulations. As was stressed in KK, all about the understanding of realities now! We discussed how seeing consciousness can only be accompanied by neutral feeling, but how santirana citta (another vipaka citta in the same process) can be accompanied by pleasant feeling if the object is particularly desirable. But can this really be known? Can santirana citta be known now? Same with the tadarammana cittas and the intricate detail you mention the Dr referred to regarding what kind of citta can follow tadarammana citta with what kind of feeling. All the Abhidhamma is to help develop understanding of dhammas as anatta now - no selection possible at all! ...> > Sarah and Jon, it was really nice to catch up with you last Sunday. I may join you again this coming Sunday. ... S: That would be great! Please do! Our last Sunday here for sometime and you'll be going away too. (Helena too if she'd like, of course.) Let me know off-list if you'd like to join the walk into the beach. Metta Sarah ====== #124934 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:37 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > We have been reading from Nina;s book at the meeting in Thaialnd, and Khun Sujin is very clear that she thinks they are exactly right about the heart base. ... S: Yes, as I said - we understand the detail in the commentaries to be correct because it is relayed by the Buddha and his disciples. The Buddha understood everything and we read about his great wisdom in the texts. That doesn't mean such details, such dhammas can be understood by anyone today. When people wonder and doubt about heart-base, we can point to the texts (as you, Nina and I do too), but it depends on the reader whether there is any understanding of dhammas as anatta or just thinking about concepts, about things such as 'heart' and 'brain', like a scientific or academic study. Metta Sarah ====== #124935 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > Perhaps that is what made Sukin do it ... that, or a rush of blood > to the brain .... :-) :-) Being in the business he is in, Sukin > always seems to have the latest gadget, and this time he had a > mobile phone with all the bells and whistles, including the ability > to take photographs. I was sitting with he and Sarah and a few > others, and then Sukin began holding his mobile phone up and sizing > up a photo of the tarmac, the plane and the SOLDIER COMING TOWARDS > HIM WITH THE KALASHNIKOV. > > Sukin!!!!!! Dear Dhamma Friend .... I don't know how to tell you > this ... but I'm NOT sitting next to you in airports in a Disputed- > Zone again - at least not unless I have your mobile phone in my > hand-bag. ... I laughed all over again.... It really was a funny incident and a very amusingly told account. Don't you have any accounts of your recent trip to the Holy Places? Any interesting incidents? Metta Sarah ===== #124936 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 3. Relationships sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, Just a short installment for today. As Phil has shown with his snippets from Survey, sometimes just a line or two can be very helpful for wise reflection: ***** There was further discussion about strong lobha in a marriage or relationship. Sujin: "One enjoys seeing, hearing, bodily impressions to satisfy one's own feeling. One clings to oneself and what one takes for another being as well. All are `sammuti sacca' (conventional truths), love and marriage are `sammuti sacca' for attachment." ***** Metta Sarah ==== #124937 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jump from unawakened citta to maggaphala nilovg Dear Alex, Op 11-jun-2012, om 18:07 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > Does one have to: > > 1) Work with unawakened, ignorant citta, purifying it little by > little to reach maggaphala. > -------- N: There is nobody who could work with citta, but I think you agree with this. Ignorance has been accumulated for a long, long time, but if we are interested in the Dhamma now it shows that also some understanding has been accumulated. When there are conditions to listen to true Dhamma, understanding can grow and one day enlightenment could be attained. It is not so that only ignorance has been accumulated, there are also good qualities. We are born a human, and this is the result of kusala kamma. ------- > A: 2) Maggaphala cannot be reached by gradually developing > ordinary, unawakened citta, - and some sort of sudden qualitative > jump from ignorance to wisdom is required first. > ------- N: I do not believe in sudden jumps. Whatever arises does so because there are the right conditions. It is said in the commentaries that the development of understanding is a long, long practice, ciira kala bhaavanaa. And also in the suttas: think of the knife handle that wears away very, very slowly, so that one cannot see how much is worn away each day. First there has to be the beginner's level of understanding, it can't be otherwise. The Buddha taught the Path to beginners, and we should not be disheartened, but take courage. ----- Nina. > > Which option do you think is correct and why? > > With best wishes, > > Alex > > #124938 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 11-jun-2012, om 18:32 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > As I read it, I believe it verifies the point of view that Rob K. > was expressing - that there is a relationship in terms of location > and/or function, between the physical organ that we see and the > "living" function that actually takes place in the "sentient > organ." They are not related in the sense that the "lump of flesh" > is not the sentient organ, but they are related as a point of > reference and in terms of living within the same structural area - > not sure exactly how to put that. ------ N: The texts make it clear that the lump of flesh we call eye is not the very tiny ruupa produced by kamma that is eyesense. Also what we call eye consists of ruupas, elements of hardness, heat, etc. that arise and fall away. ------ Nina. #124939 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:35 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Thank you, that is clear now Sarah. We were discussing about the eyedooor processes with Kuhun sujin a few weeks ago. And the topic came up about how amazing and uncontrollable it is. The actual moment of seeing arises at the eyedoor (located in the physical eye) but the remaining moments of citta in that process are occuring at the heart base, so far from the eye coor. And the the other mindoor processes occuring at the heart base, and repeated many many times before there is even perception, " this is a table" . And each moment needs many condtions to arise. A" miracle" was one of her words. Now of course i cant distniguish these different moments, but I am very confident in the truth of it and know. It is conditioning more understanding of anatta and as Sujin says" these aspects, although we might not see them directly, are accumulated in sankhara khandha and do help direct understanding to aruse. The idea of these processes occuring in the " brain" seems so caught up in cultural ideas and self to me. It shows no confidence in Dhamma and real misunderstadings . would anyone who has studied Dhamma ever prefer science , i cant see how? And my opinion is not based on complete lack of knowledge of science. Robert K ( PHD, Science and MathmAtics, Curtin university, Perth) Sorry for typos using ipad --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > We have been reading from Nina;s book at the meeting in Thaialnd, and Khun Sujin is very clear that she thinks they are exactly right about the heart base. > ... > S: Yes, as I said - we understand the detail in the commentaries to be correct because it is relayed by the Buddha and his disciples. The Buddha understood everything and we read about his great wisdom in the texts. That doesn't mean such details, such dhammas can be understood by anyone today. > > When people wonder and doubt about heart-base, we can point to the texts (as you, Nina and I do too), but it depends on the reader whether there is any understanding of dhammas as anatta or just thinking about concepts, about things such as 'heart' and 'brain', like a scientific or academic study. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #124940 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat ptaus1 Hi Sarah, > Looking forward to being "bothered" in Manly soon. Let us know when it suits you. If anyone else can join for discussions, let us know. Thanks for that. Maybe beginning of July if that's alright, I won't have a day off work before that. Will let you know when I know the potential date. Best wishes pt #124941 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:58 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Hi RobK, > > pt: I would like to understand what RobK is saying as well regarding concepts having characteristics. > > > RobK: Where did I say concepts have characteristics. How about citing me instead of putting words in my mouth that I would never say and have never said. pt: Sorry mate, I honestly got the impression that that is exactly what you are saying. E.g. 124777: > RobK: The relationship between concept and reality is quite straighforward: the concepts that the VM use are TRUE and come from a direct understanding of actual relaities: this is what I believe. pt: Please understand my difficulty - when a concept is said to be "true", to me it implies a characteristic. I.e it is usually dhammas that are described as real or true, whereas concepts are not real nor true. I recall reading about this idea of "true", "correct", etc, concepts here before, though I can't recall if it was an argument by you or someone else. Either way, I just don't understand that idea and so am trying to understand how can something which is not real also be true. Further in the same 124777: > RobK: I would claim that the reason the Visuddhimagga said the heart base was situated in the blood contained inside the conventional, physical heart, is that IT IS IN ACTUAL FACT situated just there. pt: Again, I'm confused here because a dhamma (heart base) is "in actual fact" said to be situated in a concept (blood, heart). So, I'm again just trying to understand what's actually being said there. Perhaps you're just using ultimate and conventional terminology together very skilfully and I'm just failing to keep up. Either way, my difficulty in understanding this passage from the texts is as follows: 1. As far as I can understand the text, heart base is a dhamma, while heart and blood are not. 2. Thus, heart and blood must be concepts. 3. Therefore, when the text points out that a blood (heart) is the support for citta to occur - what is the explanation of that "support" in ultimate terms? 4. I assume it can't be a conditional relation since concepts can't condition dhammas(?). 5. Thus, it seems blood and heart must stand for some sort of a dhamma - another rupa I presume. 6. Is that because heart base is a subtle rupa, which therefore must arise in dependence on 4 elements and other rupas in a kalapa? 7. Further, what actually produces that other rupa? Kamma, like in the case of heart base? Anyway, some of the questions I'm trying to figure out in this connection. Of course, no need to reply if you're not inclined, I know I generally just annoy you with my questions. If you are replying though, then please use ultimate terminology as I'm obviously having problems if it is mixed with conventional. Thanks. Best wishes pt #124942 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:30 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > > > pt: I would like to understand what RobK is saying as well regarding concepts having characteristics. > > > > > RobK: Where did I say concepts have characteristics. How about citing me instead of putting words in my mouth that I would never say and have never said. > > > pt: Sorry mate, I honestly got the impression that that is exactly what you are saying. E.g. 124777: > > > RobK: The relationship between concept and reality is quite straighforward: the concepts that the VM use are TRUE and come from a direct understanding of actual relaities: this is what I believe. > > pt: Please understand my difficulty - when a concept is said to be "true", to me it implies a characteristic. I.e it is usually dhammas that are described as real or true, whereas CONCEPTS are not real NOR TRUE. ____________ Dear Pt, where do you pick up this nonsense? There are two truths, right? from katthavatthu commentary: "...The Buddhas have two kinds of discourse, the popular[conventional] and the philosophical[paramattha]." " popular discourse they teach consistently and in conformity with TRUTH according to the method selected. And highest-meaning discourse[paramattha], too. They teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected. Thus it is said: The Enlightened One, best of speakers, spoke two kinds of truth, namely, the popular and that of highest meaning, a third is not got at (i.e known). Therein, discourse meeting with agreement is TRUE and is by way of WORLD CONVENTION. Highest meaning discourse expression is also true and, as such, characteristic of things (as they are). There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates, and so forth, and the popular taching consisting of butter-jar, and so forth. The Exalted One does not, indeed, overrun consistency. Hence, on the mere expression there is the person who, must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also SHOULD NOT , in explaining the highest meaning, OVERRUN a CONCEPT..."endpali How do you think wrong view is expressed? When people say a God controls the world, or there is no result of kamma. Or there is no rebirth, or the brain is the base for the mind, or dana is only metaphorical. These are all absolutely wrong, false concepts, (conditioned by the paramattha dhammas of micchaditthi), and showing themselves in a spoken/written way; and those with the similar wrong view lap them up). robert #124943 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > 1. As far as I can understand the text, heart base is a dhamma, while heart and blood are not. Dear Pt, the physical heart and blood are nevertheless composed of kalapas of rupas , do you see that? And these kalapas are dhammas, realities made up of of the four elements and color, taste ahara, etc ================== > > 2. Thus, heart and blood must be concepts. > > 3. Therefore, when the text points out that a blood (heart) is the support for citta to occur - what is the explanation of that "support" in ultimate terms? --------- Do you think the hadaya-vatthu, which is so tiny floats around in space all by itself? of course it has to arise in dependence on other elements which compose the body. the body is merely a expression to represent the trillions and trillions of kalapas that are conditioned either by kamma, by ahara, by utu or by citta.. ========== > > 4. I assume it can't be a conditional relation since concepts can't condition dhammas(?). +++++++++++=> as i just explained 'physical heart' is actually a term to descrive the billions of kalapas that arise near where the actual subtle rupa called hadayavatthu arises. ================ > 5. Thus, it seems blood and heart must stand for some sort of a dhamma - another rupa I presume. > > 6. Is that because heart base is a subtle rupa, which therefore must arise in dependence on 4 elements and other rupas in a kalapa? ++++++++++++ it is called the heartbase decad because it arise togthehr with the four elements, color, etc. ================== > > 7. Further, what actually produces that other rupa? Kamma, like in the case of heart base? ++++ not necessarily by kamma: Some of the kalapas in the physical heart surrounding the actual hadayavatthu are conditioned by utu, some by citta and some by ahara. robert > #124944 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:02 am Subject: spd 29 (upadhi - bodily condition) philofillet Dear group, Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "Bodily condition (upadhi) (footnote - upadhi means 'foundation' or 'substratum") is another factor that can be favourable or unfavourable. Dukkha, suffering, is inherent in bodily condition. Even when someone is born as a human being, thus, in a happy plane, akusala kamma that was commited in the past can be the condition for having a body with defects or handicaps. A defective body is an unfavourable bodily condition that contribues to akusala kamma producing results more often than kusala kamma." (end of passage) phil #124945 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:13 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Dear RobertK, >How do you think wrong view is expressed? When people say a God >controls the world, or there is no result of kamma. >================= These both are unprovable religious statements. >Or there is no rebirth, or the brain is the base for the mind, >============== There is good empirical evidence that brain -> consciousness. If one drinks alcohol (matter that affects the brain), consciousness changes. If one takes drugs... Or if brain is damaged, mind and consciousness alters... If one damages one part of the brain, one type of mental functioning alters. If one damages another part of the brain, another type of mentality alters. There is no evidence for Kamma or Rebirth, and might never be. I take these on faith. With best wishes, Alex #124946 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jump from unawakened citta to maggaphala truth_aerator Dear Nina, >N:There is nobody who could work with citta, but I think you agree >with this. >=========================================== I agree with that. To put the question more precise. How is there jump from moha cetasika, to panna cetasika? Moha diminishes (100%,99%,98%...0%) while panna gradually increases (0%, 1%,...100%)? Or is there a jump between 100% moha cetasika to 100% panna cetasika? With best wishes, Alex #124947 From: "Jessica" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:11 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth jessicamui Dear Sarah and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > S: For others - Jessica was translating the evening and weekend lectures from English to Chinese, given by Dr Mehm Tin Mon for this entire period with all the most intricate of Abhidhamma and Pali detail. No mean feat at all, especially as I'm sure the Abhidhamma hasn't been translated into Cantonese before, so there wouldn't be any commonly used translation terms for the Pali words. > J: Thanks for the background info. By the way, I wasn't translate alone as another brother helped. It was quite stressful for me as I wasn't familiar with Abhidhamma well enough to do the work.. we video the classes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzcXmv1lSMk > As for your studies, Jessica, I highly recommend the "Guide to Conditional Relations" (PTS, by Narada) written by the translator of the first text of the Patthana. Also, I'd recommend reading the Atthasalini (Expositor) with the Dhammasangani (Kline transl best) and also the comy with the Vibhanga when you come to that! Actually, I've only ever used the texts for reference, rather than just 'reading through', but those are my accumulations. As was stressed in KK, all about the understanding of realities now! > J: thanks again for the recommendations. I will look into them. The drives for me to go through the original Abhidhamma is to find out the delta between the version(Abhidhamma Sangaha) and the first 7 volumns.Later commentaries may add a lot of contents over time, i.e. the 17 mind moments. Then, when and by who. Some teachers said that Abhidhamma is taught by the Buddha. I somehow have more faith in the texts discoursed by the ones who really had the wisdom in experiencec the realities than from the ones who were saying/writing it from intellectual knowledge, reasoning and understanding. I also feel that I'm responsible for inviting someone to preach the true Dhamma. Dr. Mon will most likely to come for another two weeks in Oct to finish chapter 7 and 8 of the Abhidhamma Sangaha. With Metta, Jessica. #124948 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:33 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' jonoabb Hi RobK and Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Jon > KENH has indicated he doesn't believe the ancients got it right when they said the heartbase was in the blood inside the physical conventional heart (they did get it right about the earbase though). > I say they did get it right. is that clear enough ? > =============== J: Becoming clearer :-)) So the issue concerns the passage in the Vism describing the mind-base as being located in the physical conventional heart (or, more correctly, as arising in dependence on the blood located there). The question, then, is whether this reference to location within the physical heart is to be taken as a (conventional) truth, and so valid without exception for all times. Does this summarise the issue? I think we can agree that we are talking here about a conventional, not a paramattha, statement/truth. I think your position is that the statement is to be taken as not only correct for its time but correct for all times and cases, whereas KenH sees it as a general description for the benefit of the audience of the time but not necessarily as being equally meaningful to an audience of a different time and/or culture. Jon #124949 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:40 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Ken H., and pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: Concepts are by definition products of thinking. That's all. > -------------------- > > pt: My current take on this whole thing is that a "physical heart" can be known only > through thinking (so as a concept), so it will never be known during a moment of > satipatthana. I mean, a heart might as well be really "out there somewhere", > just like trees and cars (and the related driving into trees), but I don't think > that is something that can be verified in moments of satipatthana. > --------------------- > > KH: Your thinking might have strayed beyond the bounds there. Satipatthana is the realisation that, here and now, there are only dhammas AND ALSO that, in the past and in the future there always have been, and always will be, only dhammas. (So never any people trees or car crashes.) I may be wrong about this, but I don't think you get the understanding that "there are and always will be only dhammas" in the actual experience of satipatthana. Satipatthana is strictly the experience of what is actually arising in the moment, and there's no "now and always" in the moment - that seems to me to be a concept. What I would guess happens is that in the experience of satipatthana the experience of the characteristic of a dhamma is experienced directly, and afterwards the understanding that that's all there ever is arises as a concept. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #124950 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:47 pm Subject: Betty in bangkok post rjkjp1 A one page feature on Betty (a member here who posts occasionally) talking about how she met the prince etc. She is the only farang princess in thailand. http://www.bangkokpost.com/feature/people/297981/privileged-perspective #124951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jump from unawakened citta to maggaphala nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-jun-2012, om 17:17 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > To put the question more precise. > > How is there jump from moha cetasika, to panna cetasika? Moha > diminishes (100%,99%,98%...0%) while panna gradually increases (0%, > 1%,...100%)? > > Or is there a jump between 100% moha cetasika to 100% panna cetasika? ------ N: The expression 'jump' is not so clear. As I said, I do not think that there are jumps, only gradual changes. As Pa~n~naa (vijjaa) very gradually develops, there will be less ignorance, avijjaa. At the stage of arahatship pa~n~naa has become perfected and all ignorance is eradicated. But this is along, long process, no jumps. Nina. #124952 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:19 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2. Detachment The Buddha fulfilled in his previous lives all the perfections necessary to become a Sammåsambuddha. Síla (virtue or morality) is one of the perfections he had accumulated. Síla is our behaviour through action and speech; this can be kusala síla or akusala síla. The Buddha, in his former lives as a Bodhisatta, accumulated kusala síla of the highest degree out of compassion. He had people’s welfare in mind continuously. We read for example in the “Cariya-pitaka”(Khuddaka Nikåya, quoted in the Visuddhimagga IX, 32) that the Bodhisatta, in his existence as the Royal Någa (serpent) Búridatta, had undertaken the precepts on Uposatha Day. When he was laying on an anthill he was caught, sprinkled with medical charms that caused him great pain and put into a box. He could have killed his captor but he had no hate and did not break his precept vow. When he was the royal Någa Campeyya (Visuddhimagga IX, 33) he was cruelly treated by a snake charmer but he kept the precepts and did not kill the snake charmer: “...Now had I given way to wrath I could have seared him into ash, Had I relaxed mind-mastery I should have let my virtue lapse; And one who lets his virtue lapse Cannot attain the highest goal.” Síla is not only abstaining from ill deeds as laid down in the five precepts; síla can be considered under various aspects. For example, laypeole can also observe eight precepts and there are ten precepts binding on all novices and monks. These ten precepts consist of the five precepts and in addition five other rules, namely: abstaining from eating after midday, from dancing, singing, music and shows from garlands, scent, cosmetics and adornment, etc., from luxurious high beds, from accepting gold and silver. Another síla monks have to observe are the rules of Påtimokkha or Disciplinary Code, consisting of twohundred and twentyseven rules. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Elevens, Ch II, § 4) that the Buddha said to Subhúti: “In this connection, Subhúti, a monks is virtuous, he lives restrained with the restraint of the Obligation (Påtimokkha), well equipped with range of practice, seeing danger in minutest faults, and undertaking the practice of the precepts of the training, applies himself thereto...” The rules of Patimokkha help the monk to “Fare the Brahma-faring completely fulfilled”. ------- Nina. #124953 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 -------- > > > RK: For instance, do you think a frog could be instantly reborn in a deva world, or as a human? Or should we look to science and evolution to explain that? > > -------- > > > > KH: I think you are asking "According to the Dhamma, is a frog (a sentient being) reborn? Is it not reborn? Is it both reborn and not reborn? Is it neither born nor not reborn?" > > ++++++++++++ Dear Kenh, all, http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/tipitaka/brahma2.htm#10 The Bramajala sutta: ""What is the fourth reason that causes respected samanas and brahmanas to be elusive, to evade questions put to them on any matter and to speak in ambiguous terms? In this world, bhikkhus, a certain samana or brahmana is lacking in wisdom and is very bewildered. He evades questions put to him on any matter and speaks in ambiguous terms (in the following manner) as he is lacking in wisdom and is very bewildered. "If I were asked, 'Is there another world?' and if I took it that there is, I should answer, 'There is another world'. But I would not say this way, nor that way, nor the other way; neither would I say not this way, not that way, not, the other way; nor would I say otherwise. If I were asked whether there is not another world ..... whether there is, and also is not, another world..... whether there neither is, nor is not, another world..... whether there is opapatika birth of beings..... whether there is no opapaitika birth of beings..... whether there is, and also there is not, opapatika birth of being's..... whether it is not that there is, and also there is not, opapatika birth of beings..... whether there is life after death..... whether there is no life after death..... whether there is life as well as no life after death..... whether it is not that there is life as well as no life after death, and if I took it that it is not that there is life as well as no life after death, I should answer : 'It is not that there is life as well as no life after death.' But I would not say this way, nor that way, nor the other way; neither would I say not this way, not that way, not the other way; nor would I say otherwise." Bhikkhus! This is the fourth possibility. It is based on this reason that some samanas and brahmanas who are elusive evade questions put them on any matter and speak in ambiguous terms.""endsutta.. Sound familiar? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/124927 robert #124954 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:41 pm Subject: 2007 audio - 17. Prayer Beads sarahprocter... Dear Friends, ***** S: Han has been describing how he and many people in Burma have the habit of using prayer beads for recollection on the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha and as an aid for wholesome concentration and he asks if we have any comments. KS: What about the Buddha's time? Han: I don't know whether they used them, but we use them a lot, many of us, monks also, laymen. KS: Like tradition? Han: Like tradition. Yes. KS: What about the understanding of using them? Han: Understanding? Understanding depends on which one you apply it to. KS: Yes but can it be applied to right understanding? To me, I don't want to just follow any tradition without any understanding. S: Sometimes people think that something like this is an aid to wholesome or kusala concentration, but again it comes back to .... KS: Aiding the lobha or what? Because when there is no panna, there is lobha, wanting something. Han: Yes. (laughs) There is lobha, you do this for something. For protection or something. S: and for some good results. Han: Yes. ***** Metta Sarah ====== #124955 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Yes, excellent Alex, at least you see and fully admit your strong doubts about Dhamma. robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear RobertK, > > > >How do you think wrong view is expressed? When people say a God >controls the world, or there is no result of kamma. > >================= > > These both are unprovable religious statements. > > > >Or there is no rebirth, or the brain is the base for the mind, > >============== > > There is good empirical evidence that brain -> consciousness. If one drinks alcohol (matter that affects the brain), consciousness changes. If one takes drugs... Or if brain is damaged, mind and consciousness alters... If one damages one part of the brain, one type of mental functioning alters. If one damages another part of the brain, another type of mentality alters. > > There is no evidence for Kamma or Rebirth, and might never be. I take these on faith. > > > With best wishes, > > Alex > #124956 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: The Brahmin “Moon Diskâ€� sarahprocter... Dear Yawares, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > This Saturday at 5:30AM I went out walking meditation, the moon was > shining not so bright. A story came into my mind, please let me share > with you all. > > ************* > Thera Candabha: The Brahmin “Moon Diskâ€� > [From Bhikkhu Pesala and Daw Mya Tin] <...> > A Saint is Pure > Who is spotless as the moon, who is pure, serene, and unperturbed, > Who has destroyed craving for becoming â€" I call a Saint.413 ... S: A great story and reminder of how every kind of atachment has to be eradicated. Thx for sharing it. #124819 Metta Sarah ==== #124957 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:54 pm Subject: Broken heart? 4. Fuel? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, No rules at all - however we live, whatever decisions are made, it all comes down to conditioned dhammas. Strong lobha can be known when it arises too. ***** FUEL? It seemed to me that this was talking conventionally and I asked at what level understanding would understand this. Sujin: "It depends on conditions. Right understanding understands what is what. It’s not enough to do this or that. By right understanding, one understands one’s conditions. One sees one’s life run by conditions. Right understanding understands according to its level." I asked if we can necessarily say there is stronger lobha when we are married or have a partner. Sujin: "The disciples of the Buddha experienced many different ways of living. One knows one has strong lobha as long as one is not a sakadaagaamii [at the second stage of enlightenment]. Understanding knows what degree it is when it appears." ***** Metta Sarah ===== #124958 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Extract's from meeting with Alan sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > I asked a question on 4 satipatthanas, what is awarness of 4th satipatthana, dhammanupassana. Alan wasnt sure for that time, and he said this is probably awarness of all dhammas. ... S: Yes all conditioned dhammas are included here. From an old message of Jon's: "A further point to consider is this. Mind-objects as object of satipatthana encompasses dhammas of all kinds, including unwholesome mental factors and rupas also. The full list of mind-objects given in the Satipatthana Sutta is as follows: a/. the 5 hindrances (nivarana) b/. the 5 aggregates (khandhas) c/. the 6 sense-bases d/. the 7 factors of enlightenment e/. the Four Noble Truths" .... >So I asked maybe I shall live more secluded life and not go into all this worldly attachements? He said: That awarness can be aware of any reality. And WE must be aware of any reality now.. Any now. this was very inspiring to hear. ... S: And it really can only ever be now, can't it? When there's the thinking about whether to do A or B, wondering which way would be better for development of awareness, for less attachment and so on, it's all prompted by an idea of self, not understanding conditioned dhammas at that time. However, even the thinking, the wondering, the doubt are all dhammas which can be known now as well. Such a good discussion and report. Let us know if you meet Alan again. Perhaps you can encourage him to share some of his reflections on the meeting too. Metta Sarah ===== #124959 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > S: There are different levels and kinds of panna. > >R: Great, that is good to know. > > Do wise reflection and pariyatti with concept as object get onto the scale of insight? Or are those levels of panna prior to what is considered the stages of vipassana? ... S: No. As you suggest, pariyatti and wise reflection on dhammas precedes the panna of satipatthana which again needs to be developed before it is insight level. However, without pariyatti panna, wise reflection and understanding of (concepts of) dhammas now, there cannot be the arising and development of satipatthana (the direct understanding of realities). Metta Sarah ===== #124960 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >>S:...We're always lost in stories about situations with very little awareness of the present reality. R: > It's interesting to see how thick our experience is with what seem like back-to-back stories. It seems that every experience I have, there's some sort of explanation, rationalization, justification, expectation, or some other complicated add-on, so I see your point. ... S: Always lost in the world of concepts, proliferations about what is experienced through the senses all day long....:) ... > > How can one be aware of anything with so much commentary going on? The best I can do is see that all of that is just sort of putting the finger on the scale, constantly trying to change or adjust what has already happened without any control, to turn it into something more pleasant or easier to fit into one's conceptual framework. It's kind of funny in a way, if it weren't so annoying. .... S: The only way is the development of understanding and awareness now of the present reality. If that is thinking or attachment or trying this or that - all dhammas that can be directly known now. Never and self involved as you've been stressing to Alex. Metta Sarah ===== #124961 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:43 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > =============== > > J: Becoming clearer :-)) > > So the issue concerns the passage in the Vism describing the mind-base as being located in the physical conventional heart (or, more correctly, as arising in dependence on the blood located there). > > The question, then, is whether this reference to location within the physical heart is to be taken as a (conventional) truth, and so valid without exception for all times. > > > > Jon Dear Jon The discussion has now shifted to the possible persecution of teachers and scientists: : "KH: I would advise people (if they wanted my advice) not to harass >scientists and teachers who choose to believe the brain is the scientifically >known base of consciousness. """" Following on from KenH can I add that I fevervently I hope any dsg members are not planning to harass any science teachers this week.!! #124962 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs philofillet Dear Rob E - > > How can one be aware of anything with so much commentary going on? The best I can do is see that all of that is just sort of putting the finger on the scale, constantly trying to change or adjust what has already happened without any control, to turn it into something more pleasant or easier to fit into one's conceptual framework. It's kind of funny in a way, if it weren't so annoying. > .... What do you expect when you spend so much time on the internet writing posts full of conceptualization and proliferation about dhammas? Every post you write (and yes you write very very well) at DSG full of your commentary/opinuon/paraphrased undwrstanding will condition more of the same when you're away from the computer as well, that's pretty obvious. Phil Phil #124963 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:07 pm Subject: spd 30 calm or lobha after anger? philofillet Dear group, Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "If we can be mindful after we have been angry, and we can think of others in such a way that loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity arises, there will immediately be calmness." (77) (end of passage) I add: Important "if" above. Usually we want to escape from the unpleasant mental feeling associated with hostility and any "calm" is akusala rooted in lobha. #124964 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Rob E > - > > > How can one be aware of anything with so much commentary going on? The best I can do is see that all of that is just sort of putting the finger on the scale, constantly trying to change or adjust what has already happened without any control, to turn it into something more pleasant or easier to fit into one's conceptual framework. It's kind of funny in a way, if it weren't so annoying. > > .... > > What do you expect when you spend so much time on the internet writing posts full of conceptualization and proliferation about dhammas? Every post you write (and yes you write very very well) at DSG full of your commentary/opinuon/paraphrased undwrstanding will condition more of the same when you're away from the computer as well, that's pretty obvious. > > > Phil Dear phila and rob Does it matter whether there is commentary or not. Thinking has to be known as it is. Robert > > > > > Phil > #124965 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs philofillet Dear Rob K Right, thinking is a reality to be aware of as well, thanks. An easy mistake to believe that when the mind is quieter there are better conditions for satipatthana, for catching realities against some sort of black screen as though it was a carnival game or something. phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rob E > > - > > > > How can one be aware of anything with so much commentary going on? The best I can do is see that all of that is just sort of putting the finger on the scale, constantly trying to change or adjust what has already happened without any control, to turn it into something more pleasant or easier to fit into one's conceptual framework. It's kind of funny in a way, if it weren't so annoying. > > > .... > > > > What do you expect when you spend so much time on the internet writing posts full of conceptualization and proliferation about dhammas? Every post you write (and yes you write very very well) at DSG full of your commentary/opinuon/paraphrased undwrstanding will condition more of the same when you're away from the computer as well, that's pretty obvious. > > > > > > Phil > Dear phila and rob > Does it matter whether there is commentary or not. Thinking has to be known as it is. > Robert > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > #124966 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth szmicio Dear Jessica and Sarah, > As for your studies, Jessica, I highly recommend the "Guide to Conditional Relations" (PTS, by Narada) written by the translator of the first text of the Patthana. Also, I'd recommend reading the Atthasalini (Expositor) with the Dhammasangani (Kline transl best) and also the comy with the Vibhanga when you come to that! Actually, I've only ever used the texts for reference, rather than just 'reading through', but those are my accumulations. As was stressed in KK, all about the understanding of realities now! L: I also recommend you to read Dhatukatha. This is so good to study in daily life. See Atthasalini, four oceans. In the beginning discourse. Dhatukatha. Acharn Sujin mentioned about viriyakatha, that the talk (katha) on viriya can be a condition to have more effort, though to be aware. Dhatu katha, I found it so deep and so powerful when minds ponders over the realities, after short reminder of dhatu katha. All just elements. Best wishes Lukas #124967 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:02 am Subject: Re: Broken heart? 4. Fuel? szmicio Dear Sarah, > Sujin: "The disciples of the Buddha > experienced many different ways of living. One knows one has strong lobha as > long as one is not a sakadaagaamii [at the second stage of enlightenment]. > Understanding knows what degree it is when it appears." L: I think Alan mentioned one of sotapannas, and falling in love. I told him there was also Sumana, Anatthapindika doughter, she died of broken heart. But we didnt discuss this further. She was sad that her sisters, that were sotapannas, had a successful and happy marridge. She got sad and so depressed that she starved to death. This is possible to sakadagami even. I was so suprised by that. Best wishes Lukas #124968 From: Lukas Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:06 am Subject: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Dear Sarah, You mentioned to me that I am thinking a stories about myself. But how to think less stories about myself? This year, when there is a meeting in Bkk with Acharn Sujin? Best wishes Lukas #124969 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:36 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Hi RobK, Thanks for your response. > Dear Pt, > where do you pick up this nonsense? > There are two truths, right? < pt: No problems there, yes, two truths described in the texts, I've read your previous quote (Nyanatiloka's) on the topic with interest as well. Though, the fact that I read it does not mean that I necessarily understand it well, nor that I can successfully apply it to our discussions. Hence my questions I guess. > "Therein, discourse meeting with agreement is TRUE and is by way of WORLD CONVENTION." < pt: Don't know if I fully understand the above, it seems it's saying that it's important for the discussion that there's an agreement on the terminology. Seems especially relevant to dsg since it's a bit specific in the sense that most people here tend to consider ultimate terminology as the "convention", no wonder misunderstandings happen. > RobK: How do you think wrong view is expressed? When people say a God controls the world, or there is no result of kamma. Or there is no rebirth, or the brain is the base for the mind, or dana is only metaphorical. > These are all absolutely wrong, false concepts, (conditioned by the paramattha dhammas of micchaditthi), and showing themselves in a spoken/written way; and those with the similar wrong view lap them up). pt: Ok, the above seems straightforward enough. Could we perhaps examine a bit more difficult example. Say a statement like: "a dhammas is anatta". 1. This could be called a "correct" or "true" concept according to the texts. 2. Of course, in a moment of pariyatti, thinking this concept would probably ride on the back of kusala cittas, and thus could be classed as "correct". 3. But, say the statement is uttered when I'm trying to prove I'm right in an argument, or perhaps dismissing my friend's comments on hardships of life with the anatta statement - this would ride on the back of akusala cittas with dosa, moha, pride, etc. 4. If the citta is akusala, then sanna must be akusala too, so even though the "correct" concept is thought/perceived, the accumulations developing in sanna at the time should also be wrong, since it is akusala citta at the time. That is where my main difficulty with the issue of inherently "right and wrong" concepts is basically - if concepts are a product of thinking, then their correctness, etc, would seem to have to depend on the citta, and so there cannot be an inherently right or wrong concept. What am I missing? Best wishes pt #124970 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:48 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Hi RobK, Thanks for addressing the questions on heart base in ultimate terminology. It all seems clear enough. There are a few more details I'd like to examine further if possible. > RobK: as i just explained 'physical heart' is actually a term to descrive the billions of kalapas that arise near where the actual subtle rupa called hadayavatthu arises. ... > Some of the kalapas in the physical heart surrounding the actual hadayavatthu are conditioned by utu, some by citta and some by ahara. It seems heart-base arises by default in the "heart area" so to speak, with other kalapas around it forming a physical heart, if it can be put that way. Is there an explanation in the texts why is it that heart base is tied to the "heart area". I mean, as far as a dhamma is concerned, I wouldn't have thought that a location (which seems like a concept to me) in timespace would be one of its individual characteristics. Further, as you've mentioned in your old post, even if there was no heart, or the blood was artificial, heart base would still arise in the same area. So, I'm wondering how is that connection between a dhamma (ultimate) and a location (which seems like a concept to me) explained, if at all? Thanks. Best wishes pt #124971 From: Lukas Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:38 am Subject: Coming back home? szmicio Dear friends, Still not sure. I think I will be coming back home. Best wishes Lukas #124972 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:18 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' kenhowardau Hi all Away from home with just mobile phone connection so will post replies when I get home. Thanks. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Ken H., and pt. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > KH: Concepts are by definition products of thinking. That's all. > > > -------------------- > > > pt: My current take on this whole thing is that a "physical heart" can be known only > > through thinking (so as a concept), so it will never be known during a moment of > > satipatthana. I mean, a heart might as well be really "out there somewhere", > > just like trees and cars (and the related driving into trees), but I don't think > > that is something that can be verified in moments of satipatthana. > > --------------------- > > > > KH: Your thinking might have strayed beyond the bounds there. Satipatthana is the realisation that, here and now, there are only dhammas AND ALSO that, in the past and in the future there always have been, and always will be, only dhammas. (So never any people trees or car crashes.) > > I may be wrong about this, but I don't think you get the understanding that "there are and always will be only dhammas" in the actual experience of satipatthana. Satipatthana is strictly the experience of what is actually arising in the moment, and there's no "now and always" in the moment - that seems to me to be a concept. > > What I would guess happens is that in the experience of satipatthana the experience of the characteristic of a dhamma is experienced directly, and afterwards the understanding that that's all there ever is arises as a concept. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = = > #124973 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:05 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' jonoabb Hi Rob K --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > =============== > > > > J: Becoming clearer :-)) > > > > So the issue concerns the passage in the Vism describing the mind-base as being located in the physical conventional heart (or, more correctly, as arising in dependence on the blood located there). > > > > The question, then, is whether this reference to location within the physical heart is to be taken as a (conventional) truth, and so valid without exception for all times. > > > > > > > > Jon > > Dear Jon > The discussion has now shifted to the possible persecution of teachers and scientists: > : > "KH: I would advise people (if they wanted my advice) not to harass > >scientists and teachers who choose to believe the brain is the scientifically > >known base of consciousness. """" > > Following on from KenH can I add that I fevervently I hope any dsg members are not planning to harass any science teachers this week.!! > =============== J: DSG members don't harrass; they simply ask awkward questions and point out obvious mistakes :-)) Jon #124974 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat jonoabb Hi Rob E (124829) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > RE: I would want to leave room for practice that is not done methodically or continuously as well. > > > =============== > > > > J: But surely any form of `practice' involves `methodical effort'? There is a decision to practice, and the carrying out of certain prescribed activities to the exclusion of any other. > > Well I wouldn't doubt that practice has an intentional element, and has certain prescribed activities or principles that are being developed, but I don't think that all practice has to be "the carrying out of certain prescribed activities to the exclusion of any other." There are more than one way to practice anything, in terms of approach and in terms of how much it is planned or prescribed or exclusive of other things. I have done practice with a very specific regimen and I have done practice where I just sat down and said "let's see what happens" ... Barbra Streisand had one singing lesson and the singing teacher told her to stop what she was doing and take a different approach and she walked out and never took another lesson, knowing instinctively that her way of singing was beyond that of the teachers. I suppose there might be an analogy for that in Dhamma practice too, for those who have a gift for it. So I don't really know what the range of possibilities really is. > =============== J: In the context of meditation (as you use the term) I understand we are talking about `practice' of the deliberate -- i.e., methodical – kind. I would assume that `non-intentional' kinds of practice such as you mention above would not fall within your concept of meditation. I would also take it that the practice must be one taught by the Buddha. So it could not include, for example, just sitting down and saying "let's see what happens" (one of your examples) – unless of course that's something that you find stated or implied in the texts :-)) By the way, the definition I gave is Bhikkhu Bodhi's, from the introductory notes to his new translation of AN. The reference reads in full: "The heart of the monastic life is the practice of what we call meditation, the methodical effort to tame and master the mind and to develop its capacity for calm and insight. The training begins with the undeveloped mind, clouded and unruly, beset by passions and defilements. It ends in the liberated mind, tranquil, tamed, bright and luminous, freed from defilements and bondage to repeated existence." Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, Wisdom Publications, 2012. P.31, `Introduction' Jon #124975 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:26 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Rob K, and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > KH: Go with my interpretation :-) otherwise you will have to tell your children that they (as human beings) have lived previous lives and are receiving rewards and paying the price for the good and bad deeds done in those previous lives. It's very messy and unnecessary. > > > > > > +++++++++ > Dear Ken > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.123.than.html#jhana2 > > ""When he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Abhassara devas. The Abhassara devas, monks, have a life-span of two eons. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. "" > > What do you think the Abhassara realm is? or the hell realm? If I can take a guess, I would think that Ken H. would say that those realms refer to certain types of vipaka rupas [or whatever the equivalent of rupas is in the arupa realms] that are experienced due to kamma, rather than actual "realms." I'll go forward in the thread to see if I am right! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #124976 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:42 am Subject: Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat jonoabb Hi Rob E (124573) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > Well, I am just trying to make sense of the facts. As Joe Friday used to say on the detective show "Dragnet" many years ago, when told the story of what happened to someone, "Just the facts, ma'am." > =============== J: Well, Mister, you want the facts, I'll give `em to ya. > =============== > RE: The fact that I am trying to make sense of, and which your otherwise very worthy explanation seems to have so far not quite explained, is how the communication of the concepts given by the Buddha, such as "all dhammas are anatta," are not only the vehicle by which understanding begins to develop, but are said to be absolutely necessary to any understanding of the nature of dhammas. > =============== J: You'll have a difficult time of making sense of that fact, because it's a non-fact :-)) There is no communication of concepts (using that in the sense we are talking about), only the communication of the understanding of truths. Truths that are understood are not concepts, although the use of concepts is of course necessary for their expression and communication. What needs to be heard is not specific concepts but the truths as taught by the Buddha, or aspects of those truths, expressed in language that is appropriate to the level of understanding of the listener. (The fact that language is conceptual does not mean there's a relationship between the concepts and the understanding developed.) > =============== > RE: So this person starts out without any understanding, no understanding of Dhamma at all. As soon as they hear and consider the concepts of the Dhamma, perhaps the four noble truths in a simple, conceptual outline, or perhaps the nature of reality as anicca or anatta, they have the first possibility of a glimmering understanding by considering such concepts as are given. So it is indeed the spoken or written concept itself that awakens the possibility of understanding. The understanding doesn't come first, the written or spoken concepts come first. So the understanding at first is conceptually based, in the form given by the Buddha, or paraphrased by someone else, but with the same meaning as the words given by the Buddha. > =============== J: Regarding "The understanding doesn't come first, the written or spoken concepts come first", that is not actually so. There must be understanding on the part of the speaker, otherwise the listener will gain nothing. > =============== > RE: I would agree with you that without the arousal of understanding in the cittas of the person who has been thus given the concepts of the Dhamma, there is no possibility of those concepts awakening any understanding. The person would be like the spell checker who can only repeat the concepts with no meaning or understanding, or perhaps helpfully translate anagami into "anagram," something that it already understands. But without the correct written or spoken words, that understanding cannot be aroused. > =============== J: There is no particular (i.e., `correct') form of words required for the communication of the understanding of the dhamma. > =============== > RE: Please account for the Dhamma end of this. I think we both agree about the understanding of the person on the other end. But it is also necessary to have the right concepts expressed in words for there to be something that can be understood; otherwise no Dhamma, no path, no understanding of the nature of realities is possible. > =============== J: Regarding "it is necessary to have the right concepts expressed in words for there to be something that can be understood; otherwise no Dhamma, no path, no understanding of the nature of realities is possible", I believe this is an incorrect statement of the facts (ma'am). I think you need to replace "right concepts" with "right understanding". Jon #124977 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:57 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > > > Jon > > > > Dear Jon > > The discussion has now shifted to the possible persecution of teachers and scientists: > > : > > "KH: I would advise people (if they wanted my advice) not to harass > > >scientists and teachers who choose to believe the brain is the scientifically > > >known base of consciousness. """" > > > > > =============== > > J: DSG members don't harrass; they simply ask awkward questions and point out obvious mistakes :-)) > > Jon > Dear Kenh and JOn I gave KenH' warning some careful thought. It might be that a few dsg members can't control themselves – anatta and all- and driving past the local highschool decide to take matters into their own hands. I caution against any drastic action. But if you must confront the demon (head of science department) at least wait until he finishes his class. Then slowly approach and in order not to inflame the situation, hold your empty hands out in front, allowing him to see your gun is fully holstered. Keep the conversation on a polite basis and promptly hand over the legal document stating that he agrees never to say that the mind is based in the brain. Have a pen and witness handy and comfort the evil infidel by explaining you should be able to control the large lynch-mob, now forming in the carpark, after they are shown the signed document. To end it on a firm note, you might add that you know here he lives, where his wife works, and his children go to school. robert #124978 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:29 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > It seems heart-base arises by default in the "heart area" so to speak, with other kalapas around it forming a physical heart, if it can be put that way. Is there an explanation in the texts why is it that heart base is tied to the "heart area". I mean, as far as a dhamma is concerned, I wouldn't have thought that a location (which seems like a concept to me) in timespace would be one of its individual characteristics. +++++++++ Dear Pt, it's like asking why the cakkhu-pasada rupa is located in the physical eye, why not in the big toenail? Why do humans have two legs; why is pali spoken in the deva worlds; why do buddhas always arise in jambudipa; why are there hell realms; when did it all begin. This is just the nature of the universe it is not explained why these things are this way in Dhamma. robert #124979 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:19 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi > > "Therein, discourse meeting with agreement is TRUE and is by way of WORLD CONVENTION." < > > pt: Don't know if I fully understand the above, it seems it's saying that it's important for the discussion that there's an agreement on the terminology. Seems especially relevant to dsg since it's a bit specific in the sense that most people here tend to consider ultimate terminology as the "convention", no wonder misunderstandings happen. ++++++++++ Dear Pt, even the English is clear enough, but study the pali if you have doubts, World convention here is referring to terms like "butter jar", "person" etc. """ There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the hightest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates and so forth, and the popular teaching consisting of "butter jar" and so forth. The Exalted One does not indeed, overall run consistency. Hence on the mere expression "there is the person who," must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So, another wise man also should NOT, IN EXPLAINING THE HIGHEST MEANING OVERRUN A CONCEPT" > > > RobK: How do you think wrong view is expressed? When people say a God controls the world, or there is no result of kamma. Or there is no rebirth, or the brain is the base for the mind, or dana is only metaphorical. > > These are all absolutely wrong, false concepts, (conditioned by the paramattha dhammas of micchaditthi), and showing themselves in a spoken/written way; and those with the similar wrong view lap them up). > > pt: Ok, the above seems straightforward enough. Could we perhaps examine a bit more difficult example. Say a statement like: > > "a dhammas is anatta". > > 1. This could be called a "correct" or "true" concept according to the texts. > > 2. Of course, in a moment of pariyatti, thinking this concept would probably ride on the back of kusala cittas, and thus could be classed as "correct". > > 3. But, say the statement is uttered when I'm trying to prove I'm right in an argument, or perhaps dismissing my friend's comments on hardships of life with the anatta statement - this would ride on the back of akusala cittas with dosa, moha, pride, etc. > > That is where my main difficulty with the issue of inherently "right and wrong" concepts is basically - if concepts are a product of thinking, then their correctness, etc, would seem to >have to depend on the citta, and so there cannot be an inherently right or wrong concept. > What am I missing? ++++++++++++ What you are missing is some common sense. The Dhamma is not some sort of legalese whereby quibbles and argumentation over arcane technicalities take precedence over useful expanation. Can someone say " everything is anatta" and still have wrong view: of course (look at Thanissaro's mystical ideas on anatta ). But we are talking about the Dhamma as explained by the Buddha and arahats right, as laid down in the Tipitaka and Atthakatha, not some ridiculous misinterpretation of what they said. And the heart base is explained in detail and clarity in the Visuddimagga. Look at this from the visuddhimagga about rebirth: "The two together: since any given states are produced without interrupting the [cause-fruit] continuity of any given combination of conditions, the whole expression "dependent origination" (paþicca-samuppáda) represents the middle way, which rejects the doctrines, "He who acts is he who reaps" and "One acts while another reaps" (S II 20), and which is the proper way described thus, "Not insisting on local language and NOT OVERRIDDING NORMAL USAGE" (M III 234)"" "And with a stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. And if that were so there would be an END TO ALL WORDLY USAGE WHICH IS HARDLY DESIRABLE ]"" It becomes a great obfuscation of Dhamma when confused Buddhists deliberately or unknowlingly try to use ultimate terms to wiggle out of accurate Dhamma. The paramattha terms, for them, rather than clarify has become an intellectual escape from seeing the vastness of Dhamma and the true dukkha of samsara. The medicine has become the source of their illness. And so they are firmly among the Eel-wigglers: http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/tipitaka/brahma2.htm#10 . What is the fourth reason that causes respected samanas and brahmanas to be elusive, to evade questions put to them on any matter and to speak in ambiguous terms? In this world, bhikkhus, a certain samana or brahmana is lacking in wisdom and is very bewildered. He evades questions put to him on any matter and speaks in ambiguous terms (in the following manner) as he is lacking in wisdom and is very bewildered. "If I were asked, 'Is there another world?' and if I took it that there is, I should answer, 'There is another world'. But I would not say this way, nor that way, nor the other way; neither would I say not this way, not that way, not, the other way; nor would I say otherwise. If I were asked whether there is not another world ..... whether there is, and also is not, another world..... whether there neither is, nor is not, another world..... whether there is opapatika birth of beings..... whether there is no opapaitika birth of beings..... whether there is, and also there is not, opapatika birth of being's..... whether it is not that there is, and also there is not, opapatika birth of beings..... whether there is life as well as no life after death..... whether it is not that there is life as well as no life after death, and if I took it that it is not that there is life as well as no life after death, I should answer : 'It is not that there is life as well as no life after death.' But I would not say this way, nor that way, nor the other way; neither would I say not this way, not that way, not the other way; nor would I say otherwise." robert #124980 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:24 pm Subject: Fw: May you all be happy and well. sarahprocter... ----- Forwarded Message ----- >From: Dewananda BK >To: dhammastudygroup Moderator >Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012, 14:31 >Subject: May you all be happy and well. > > >Hello! I am bhikkhu dewananda here and wish you all to fulfill your best wishes and parami .I am glad to have the knowledge that you've gathered, with extremely >friendly. I am encouraged by my dhamma friend to visit you all here as well. >ITBMU, >Yangon, Myanmar. > #124981 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:29 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? rjkjp1 Dear Lukas I am sure you know that as understadning reconizes thinking as merely a process, uncontrollable and not you, the tendency to take the thinking seriously diminishes gradually. I think Sarah and jon arrive late august from many meetings robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > You mentioned to me that I am thinking a stories about myself. But how to think less stories about myself? > This year, when there is a meeting in Bkk with Acharn Sujin? > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > #124982 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Broken heart? 5. Understanding accumulations sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & friends, ***** I wondered if we should at least consider certain situations as less favourable. Sujin: "Thinking can think rightly or wrongly. Understanding can understand whether it is just thinking. It is common to have attachment, but it depends on how far one lets it go. One can consider wisely or unwisely, because a moment is gone so fast and attachment is never enough. There are always conditions to condition future attachment, because one always asks for fuel for future attachment. It’s so strong that it burns and how can one stop the burning fire if one always puts in fuel? Is one brave enough to live alone? For the sake of one’s life, for the sake of one’s eradication of lobha."  I asked whether it was important to know what level the understanding was. Sujin: "The sotaapanna is not a deceiver, he is straight, honest, sincere. The understanding is so straight to that moment, to what level of wisdom is there at that moment. Understanding understands accumulations. Understanding understands that level of ‘complex’ [accumulations] as not self. Know oneself and one’s nature deeper and deeper so one can know what type of Buddha’s disciple one is." ***** Metta Sarah ====== #124983 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fw: May you all be happy and well. sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dewananda, >>Hello! I am bhikkhu dewananda here and wish you all to fulfill your best wishes and parami .I am glad to have the knowledge that you've gathered, with extremely >>friendly. I am encouraged by my dhamma friend to visit you all here as well. >>ITBMU, >>Yangon, Myanmar. ... Welcome to DSG and thank you for introducing yourself. We look forward to any contributions you may make to our discussions here. Thank you for telling us of your 'presence'. Metta and respect, Sarah ====== #124984 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:52 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 2. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha had also observed the monk’s síla in the lives when he was leading the “Homeless life”. In his last life he left his luxurious life in his palace in order to become a monk. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings”(I, 36, “Greater Discourse to Saccaka”) that the Buddha said to Aggivessana: “... Now, Aggivessana, before my Self-awakening while I was still the Bodhisatta, not fully awakened, it occurred to me: Narrow is the household life, a path of dust, going forth is in the open, nor is it easy while dwelling in a house to lead the brahma-faring completely fulfilled, utterly purified, polished like a conch-shell. Suppose now that I, having cut off hair and beard, having clothed myself in saffron garments, should go forth from home into homelessness?...” Those who have accumulations for monkhood can “go forth” in order to “lead the Brahma-faring completely fulfilled, utterly purified, polished like a conch-shell”. We all have different accumulations and not everyone can lead the monk’s life. But both monks and laypeople can develop the eightfold Path in order to have right understanding of the phenomena of their lives. After his enlightenment the Buddha taught the eightfold Path. The factors of the eightfold Path are: right understanding, right thinking, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. The three factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood are the síla of the eightfold Path. When one observes síla with mindfulness of nåma and rúpa there is at that moment síla of the eightfold Path which leads to the eradication of akusala síla. Both monks and laypeople can observe síla more perfectly through satipatthåna. If the monks observe the rules of Påtimokkha and also develop satipatthåna these rules will truly help them to “fare the Brahma-faring completely fulfilled”. ______ Nina. #124985 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: 2007 audio - 18. Virtue as "pre-condition"? sarahprocter... Dear Friends, S: This is a sutta which is like many which are often quoted here from AN on the benefits of virtue, on the benefit of sila. This is from a message of Han's to someone else who had quoted it and it talks about a sequence of benefit of kusala sila leading to non-remorse, gladness, joy, serenity, happiness, concentration and then 'knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathaabhuuta-~naana-dassana)', revulsion, dispassion, knowledge and visio - and Han's comment at the end was that the sutta confirms the statement that the “the Buddha clearly teaches that virtue or emotional stability is a precondition for concentration.. is a pre-condition for wisdom...." KS: What kind of sila? Any kind or what kind? Han: Kusala sila. KS: Yes, but there are many levels of kusala sila. Kusala with panna or kusala without panna. Han: It doesn't mention anything. It says that from kusala sila it goes to non-remorse (avippatisaara) and then to pamojja [S: gladness] and then to piiti [S: joy] and so on. KS: With panna or without panna. Han: It doesn's say. ~Naana comes later..... S: I think that Khun Sujin's point which she was stressing when we were talking about sila as foundation is that it must be sila with panna, otherwise it can never lead to adhi-citta [S: higher concentration] or adhi panna - it can never lead to yathaabhuuta-~naana-dassana, if it's not sila with panna. So even though it doesn't say "sila with panna", the meaning is that it has to be sila with panna, otherwise it cannot be adhi-sila [S: higher sila]. **** *http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/68518 AN X.1 The Benefits of Virtue (kimatthiya sutta).  The sequence of benefits are virtue (kusala siila) > non-remorse (avippatisaara) > gladness (pamojja) > joy  (piiti) >serenity (passaddhi) > happiness (sukha) > concentration (samaadhi) >knowledge and vision of  things as they really are (yathaabhuuta-~naana-dassana) >revulsion and dispassion (nibbidaa-viraaga) > knowledge and vision of liberation (vimutti-~naana-dassana). Metta Sarah ===== #124986 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:35 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > I am sure you know that as understadning reconizes thinking as merely a process, uncontrollable and not you, the tendency to take the thinking seriously diminishes gradually. > I think Sarah and jon arrive late august from many meetings ... S: Yes, late August, also with Tadao. I think Phil, Ann and some other friends will also be joining us next (early) Jan. Would be great if you could join either time. I agree with Rob - usually we take our thinking very seriously, lost in all those stories about 'me'. It is only right understanding which knows the thinking for what it is - the thinking with lobha, dosa and moha as the problem, not all those ideas and imaginary stories about people and places and so on. No other way - just develop more understanding now! Metta Sarah > >L: You mentioned to me that I am thinking a stories about myself. But how to think less stories about myself? > > This year, when there is a meeting in Bkk with Acharn Sujin? ====== #124987 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 1, 1. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > I would never say there is no volition, but the question in "no control" is whether there is anyone that has control, and the answer to that is 'no.' I agree with you that volition arises and does something, but I don't agree with the idea -- which I am not necessarily attributing to you -- that volition has "control" merely by arising to take its part in the chain of causation. Volition plays its role, but so do all the conditions that cause it to arise and that direct it through their influence. Volition, in other words, doesn't rise alone, and doesn't have an absolute effect, but is limited and tempered by all the other forces that arise with it. > > Alex thinks that at the moment of volition, in the final analysis volition can freely choose a or b. Conditions may have produce dth options, but then volition can pick its preferred option. That's something I would not agree with, because I believe volition too is conditioned in what it chooses. ... S: Good comments. ...' >R:That leads to the question of what exactly is volition, and I don't currently have an exact answer to that. ..... S: volition (cetana) arises with every single citta. It coordinates the other cetasikas and citta in performing their tasks. Even at a moment of seeing, cetana is coordinating the phassa which contacts the visible object, the vedana which feels or 'tastes' the object and so on. In addition, when cetana accompanies subsequent kusala or akusala cittas, it performs another function which is to 'will' kamma. It 'wills' kusala or akusala at that time. In Nina's book "Cetasikas", she refers to the commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Atthasaalinii: "The Atthasaalinii compares the double task of cetanå to the task of a landowner who directs the work of his labourers, looks after them and also takes himself an equal share of the work. He doubles his strength and doubles his effort. Even so volition doubles its strength and its effort in moral and immoral acts." As you say, cetana is as conditioned as any other dhamma. Who can stop cetana from arising now or make it any other way than how it's conditioned already? Metta Sarah ===== #124988 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, Thanks for your additional comments on khandhas. I think I have little more to add at this point. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: At this moment there are khandhas arising and falling away. This shows us there is no living being in reality at all. > > D: arising and falling away are the phenomena/dhammas of the 6senses media .. .... S: The Buddha talked repeatedly about the arising and falling away of the khandhas. What are the "6 senses media" if not khandhas? For example, eye-sense arising and falling away now is khandha. Seeing consciousness..... and so on..... all conditioned dhammas, all khandhas. No matter what terms, what labels we use, there are dhammas now arising and falling away which can be known. We can just talk about seeing, visible object, attachment and other dhammas. All that is important is the understanding of them when they appear now. Metta Sarah ======= #124989 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:11 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Dear Sarah, > I agree with Rob - usually we take our thinking very seriously, lost in all those stories about 'me'. It is only right understanding which knows the thinking for what it is - the thinking with lobha, dosa and moha as the problem, not all those ideas and imaginary stories about people and places and so on. L: Or maybe not develop more attachment to a particular person and try to lead more secluded life? This attachement really pains. Best wishes Lukas #124990 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Dear Rob, > I am sure you know that as understadning reconizes thinking as merely a process, uncontrollable and not you, the tendency to take the thinking seriously diminishes gradually. L: yes, but this particular way of thinking, that comes from very strong wordly attachement is really painful? It's hard to learn, when u are lost in concepts with strong attachement and strong dosa. > I think Sarah and jon arrive late august from many meetings L: And u leaving Bkk now? Do u attend Acharn's meetings? Best wishes Lukas #124991 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:18 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: Or maybe not develop more attachment to a particular person and try to lead more secluded life? > This attachement really pains. .... S: The deep meaning of "secluded life" refers to a moment with understanding. Whether living as a bhikkhu in a monastery or a lay-person surrounded by objects of desire makes no difference - it all comes down to understanding what is conditioned at this moment. We have to know our accumulations at this very moment. Yes, attachment brings pain. It can be understood now as a conditioned dhamma, common to all, not 'yours' at all. However life goes, it's by conditions. Metta Sarah ===== #124992 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Ph... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and all) - Thank you for *all* the quoted material you have provided. I'd like to comment (briefly) on the following material, the second paragraph of which provides an example of the origin in Theravada of some of the worthwhile material of Mahayana that some folks are very quick to reject with disdain: In a message dated 6/15/2012 2:21:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Look at this from the visuddhimagga about rebirth: "The two together: since any given states are produced without interrupting the [cause-fruit] continuity of any given combination of conditions, the whole expression "dependent origination" (paþicca-samuppáda) represents the middle way, which rejects the doctrines, "He who acts is he who reaps" and "One acts while another reaps" (S II 20), and which is the proper way described thus, "Not insisting on local language and NOT OVERRIDDING NORMAL USAGE" (M III 234)"" "And with a stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. And if that were so there would be an END TO ALL WORDLY USAGE WHICH IS HARDLY DESIRABLE ]"" ----------------------------------------------- HCW: That second paragraph could well have been the words of Nagarjuna. NEITHER IDENTITY NOR OTHERNESS!!! (The middle-way mode of "existence", avoiding the false extremes of substantialism and nihilism!) But this is NOT Nagarjuna; it is Buddhaghosa! This is also the teaching to be found in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta which, in fact, is the root basis for Nagarjuna's seminal work. BTW, my point here is not at all to extol virtues of Mahayana, but rather to point to often overlooked (and perhaps sometimes purposely ignored) gems in Theravada, overlooked/ignored by both Mahayanists and some Theravadins. Blinders are not useful. ================================= With metta, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #124993 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? rjkjp1 Hi lukas, Yes I am here in Bangkok and see A. sujin often, ( tommorow for instance). When the dosa is strong the lesson can be just as strong : its the way parami can grow, facing up to painful realities. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Rob, > > > I am sure you know that as understadning reconizes thinking as merely a process, uncontrollable and not you, the tendency to take the thinking seriously diminishes gradually. > > L: yes, but this particular way of thinking, that comes from very strong wordly attachement is really painful? It's hard to learn, when u are lost in concepts with strong attachement and strong dosa. > > > I think Sarah and jon arrive late august from many meetings > > L: And u leaving Bkk now? Do u attend Acharn's meetings? > > Best wishes > Lukas > #124994 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Dear Rob, > Hi lukas, > Yes I am here in Bangkok and see A. sujin often, ( tommorow for instance). > L: Can u ask her for addvice? I am at monastery and this is hard to get saddhama here, I am also scared coming back home, and associated with bad friends, especially being in troble with using intoxicants. Can u ask what shall i do? I am scared to come back. Also if this is not a problem can u ask:'I suffer now from some kind of broken heart issue. It is very tought. EEspecially if I feel lost. What can I do with this. I feel this leads to more and more anger in my life' Thanks Lukas #124995 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? rjkjp1 yep, wil report back tomorrow evening. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Rob, > > > Hi lukas, > > Yes I am here in Bangkok and see A. sujin often, ( tommorow for instance). > > > > L: Can u ask her for addvice? I am at monastery and this is hard to get saddhama here, I am also scared coming back home, and associated with bad friends, especially being in troble with using intoxicants. Can u ask what shall i do? I am scared to come back. > Also if this is not a problem can u ask:'I suffer now from some kind of broken heart issue. It is very tought. EEspecially if I feel lost. What can I do with this. I feel this leads to more and more anger in my life' > Thanks > Lukas > #124996 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:59 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Rob K, Thank you. You can add also I am listening a lot to her. And this is my practice now. > yep, wil report back tomorrow evening. #124997 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Dear Sarah (and Nina), you wrote: (D: arising and falling away are the phenomena/dhammas of the 6senses media ..).... S: The Buddha talked repeatedly about the arising and falling away of the khandhas. What are the "6 senses media" if not khandhas? For example, eye-sense arising and falling away now is khandha. Seeing consciousness..... and so on..... all conditioned dhammas, all khandhas. matter what terms, what labels we use, there are dhammas now arising and falling away which can be known. We can just talk about seeing, visible object, attachment and other dhammas. All that is important is the understanding of them when they appear now D: let me bring our understanding to the point: you state no difference between khandhas and the 6 senses media I stick to Nyanatiloka's interpretation :khandha is the abstract of senses phenomena by grouping them due to certain characteristics. The issue concerns how we distínguish realities and concepts and I believe this is important in Abhidhamma . I think there are texts in which the Buddha talked about arising and falling away of the khandhas ,one question however is whether it doesn'tt concern the khandha breakdown ( of Dependent Origination ) i.e. temporarily at death or finally (nibbana). The other is the consideration whether the Buddha distinguished at all between realities and concepts. If not, what I suppose , to talk of arising and falling khandhas equally mean the dhammas which are grouped under them. However due to the deep(er) exploration of the Dhamma we find this distinction in Abhidhamma , so that one may wonder why for this issue your perspective is not mine ( 'Suttanist) and my perspective is not yours ('Abhidhammika') :-) with Metta Dieter #124998 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:28 am Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio hej Rob K. If there will be also opportunity to rise this small request to Acharn. If she would come to Europe again if we would sponsor her trip and accomodation? That's the question And by the way: Because that is easier if she come, because i know not only me want like to meet her , but also Alan and his boys. And I actually have an opportunity to come in August, but I would rather give this money for her to come, if this is only possible. The rest of accomodation funds, can be arrange i think so. Best wishes Lukas #124999 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:12 pm Subject: Broken heart? 6. Attachment - not self sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, Continuing on with the article Nina encouraged me to share. As you'll see, attachment is common to all of us. The only way it'll ever be eradicated is through the development of right understanding: ***** Again I wondered if we could say that the strong attachment would not arise if we were not in such a situation. Sujin: "The feeling and the attachment to feeling will come again and again. It will not stop coming out. It all depends on conditions what will happen as long as there are beings around and there is attachment not eradicated. When right understanding understands that it’s only thinking and feeling with attachment, that naama is naama, not self, it will lessen the degree of attachment." ***** Metta Sarah =====