#125400 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Forgiving, was Delisting. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >S: "Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of > > Dhamma..." > > > > There are tests all day, tests of whether there is kindness, help > > and understanding or whether lobha, dosa and moha win out again.... > ------ > N: Yes always things happening that are beyond control. What a test! > As to forgiving, I found this passage of pilgrimage so helpful about > the perfections Bodhisattas are accumulating: <"They constantly > arouse energy, having beings' welfare and happiness at heart. When > they have acquired heroic fortitude through supreme energy, they > become patient with beings' many kinds of faults...."> ... S: That's very good. I think understanding leads to such fortitude and patience, patience with "beings' many kinds of faults". We see how all the paramis (perfections) work together. Metta Sarah ===== #125401 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 3. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Thanks for sharing these transcripts --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Kh Santi: How can we exert effort for satipatthaana? > > Kh S: When there are no conditions for satipatthaana it does not > arise. More understanding is the condition for it. If it does not > arise there is not yet enough understanding. > > Kh Santi: If for someone satipatthana often arises he has a lot of > effort or energy, and if it does not often arise, there is not much > effort for that person. > > Kh S: Does satipatthana arise because it is accumulated as > sankhaarakkhandha( the khandha of formations, including sati, > pa~n~naa and all wholesome qualities) or does it arise because of a > self? At this moment of listening there are sati and pa~n~naa, and > are these sankhaarakkhandha? .... S: Even if someone has studied a lot of Abhidhamma and Pali, if there's still the idea of self making an effort or 'doing' something, it's not the understanding that the Buddha taught. I heard K. Sujin talking about how sacca ~naana (knowledge of the truth) is the understanding which is confident about the reality right now as the object of understanding only. Nothing else can be the object of understanding.....and only that reality which appears. Metta Sarah ==== #125402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:45 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 6 nilovg Dear friends, He who discovered the truth all by himself and taught the truth to others had accumulated perfect truthfulness and sincerety. Through satipatthna one can become more sincere. When we are mindful of realities we will come to know our more subtle defilements which were hidden to us before. We may have thought that we were sincere so long as we did not tell lies. But are we always sincere in our speech and behaviour? The Visuddhimagga (I, 60 etc.) mentions untruthfulness in speech or deportment of monks by which there is transgression of the purity of right livelihood. For example, a monk lays claim to a higher than human state that is non-existent in order to obtain requisites [1]. This is an offence of Defeat; he can no longer be in communion with the Sangha. We read about hypocrisy in the case of a monk who wants to have requisites but rejects them because he wants to make a good impression on people so that they will give him more. We read about the monk who composes his deportment so that people will admire him more (Visuddhimagga Ch 1, 70): ... he walks studiedly, stands studiedly, sits studiedly, lies down studiedly; he walks as though concentrated; and he is one who meditates in public... The monk is not supposed to ask for requisites and he is not allowed even to give a hint or make a suggestion about what he needs. The Visuddhimagga gives many examples of wrong speech of monks who are seeking requisites. A few of these examples are the following (Visuddhimagga Ch I, 75): Ingratiating chatter is endearing chatter repeated again and again without regard to whether it is in conformity with truth and Dhamma. Flattery is speaking humbly, always maintaining an attitude of inferiority. Bean-soupery is resemblance to bean soup; for just as when beans are being cooked only a few do not get cooked, the rest get cooked, so too the person in whose speech only a little is true, the rest being false, is called a bean soup; his state is bean- soupery. These passages are useful reminders also for lay-people. Are there moments we wish to pretend to be wiser and more virtuous than we really are? Is there some untruthfulness in our speech, be it only a little? ------ 1) The requisites of robes, food, dwelling-place and medicines. ******* Nina. #125403 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Alex & all, The following is a very good quote too: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Kh Sujin: The development of pa~n~naa is a long process, ciira kala > bhaavanaa. > > From the beginning there should be right understanding that this > moment is dhamma. This understanding must be firm and then it can > condition awareness of the characteristics of naama and ruupa. > Realities arise and fall away very rapidly but one should not worry > about being too late to be aware of them. When sati of the level of > satipa.t.thaana arises a characteristic of a reality appears > naturally, just like now. There may be understanding stemming from > listening, but it takes a long time until sati begins to be aware. > When one begins to listen sati may not arise, but one has to continue > to listen and then understanding will grow. Understanding can be > accumulated from life to life, and we do not know how many lives it > takes before there can be direct awareness and understanding of > realities. .... S: Alex will object, of course. We don't have to think about when or how long, but the test is at this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what appears. If there is an idea of catching or focussing on a reality or there is no idea what reality is appearing, we can be sure there needs to be a lot more listening, considering and careful reflection on dhammas as anatta. ... > When sati and pa~n~naa arise there is no lobha that desires to > understand, there is detachment. Even when pa~n~naa does not yet > clearly know characteristics, one knows the right way. There is only > one way: when sati is aware of realities then pa~n~naa can grow. Even > when pa~n~naa is weak, one should be aware again and again in > accordance with conditions. > > Everybody likes kusala and hopes for more sati of the level of > satipa.t.thaana, but the idea of self should be got rid of and this > takes patience and courage. Are we ready to develop satipa.t.thaana > in order to get rid of the idea of self? ... S: Patience and courage again. If there is trying to have sati or hoping, we're led astray again. Satipatthana can never arise at such times. ... > > Awareness of characteristics of reality should be very natural and if > it is not natural, it does not work. The development of pa~n~naa is a > difficult task but when one listens and has more understanding sati > can begin to be aware. It is all a matter of detachment, not a matter > of clinging. Listening to the Dhamma is light, pleasant, it is not > heavy. When one has desire and does not get what one wants, life > becomes heavy. When there is very little sati we cannot cause it to > arise often, such is life. ... S: Again, K.Sujin stresses that kusala citta is 'light'. If the practice, the development of awareness is heavy, a burden, stressful.....it's not kusala sati It's not the Path. Metta Sarah ===== #125404 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/5/2012 3:02:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Nina). --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > > > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > > > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > > > kamma, CAN modify > > > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > > > this. .... > > > -------- > N: It would interest me to have a sutta text, if you can find it? > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: What about when lokutta cittas (enlightenment) occurs? Even at the stage of sotapanna, past kamma can no longer bring results by way of woeful rebirth, for example. After the parinibbana of an arahat, past kamma of any kind can no longer bring results. Also, we know the results of kamma are so very intricate. For example, a human birth is a result of past kusala kamma, but past akusala kamma may lead to deformities and so on from birth. Are these the sorts of things you were meaning? ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: :-) Yes. (Particularly of the mundane sort in the above example.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Htoo wrote a series before on different types of kamma, such as #45247 and following: >1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma< Metta Sarah ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125405 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 12:56 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >A:What doesn't exist is something that is constant (nicca), >ultimately happy (sukha), and thing-in-itself (Atta) with the former >features. With this, we do not have problem with conventional >actions. >======================================================== >RE:Agreed. The only part that I am not sure about is no "atta with >the former features." Could you please explain what you mean by >that? > ================================= There isn't anything that is nicca and ultimately sukha. I agree with anatta as long as we don't take it to mean that no things exist at all. Conditioned dhammas do exist. Their arrangements into what we call "wholes" do exist. With best wishes, Alex #125406 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 1:29 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >Kh Sujin: The development of pa~n~naa is a long process, ciira kala >bhaavanaa. >============== And in the suttas the opposite is said. SN38 -"if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would it take him long to become an arahant?" -"Not long, friend. - SN38.16 NACIRA.M not cira kala! The suttas are filled with with teachings of quick progress. In MN85 thge Buddha said that He could make good student an Arahant within one day. Satipatthana sutta promises arhatship within 7 days if one fully does it. Bahiya became an Arahant in a minute or so... etc etc. >S: Alex will object, of course. Right, check the suttas. >S:We don't have to think about when or how long, but the test is at >this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what >========================== I think we do. Maybe the lack of quick progress is due to lack of right effort or understanding. While I understand that we have to be realistic, I do wonder about the correctness of "Buddhist" path that takes long time. I understand that "Arhatship this day" is highly unlikely, I also don't approve of thousands of lifetimes more of accumulations. This seems to me to be an excuse for not doing something right in the context of all that suttas have said. With metta, Alex #125407 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 1:40 am Subject: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. moellerdieter Hi All, the term often used, I am thinking it may be useful to contemplate about details. Below a brief overview with Metta Dieter PTS Pañña Pañña ( -- ˚) (adj.) [the adj. form of paññā] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition, in foll. cpds.: anissaraṇa˚ D i.245; S ii.194; iv.332; anoma˚ Sn 343; appa˚ S i.198; J ii.166; iii.223, 263; avakujja˚ A i.130; gambhīra˚ S i.190; javana˚ S i.63; Nd2 235; tikkha˚; dup˚ D iii.252, 282; S i.78, 191; ii.159 sq.; M iii.25; A ii.187 sq.; Dh 111, 140; Pug 13; DhA ii.255; nibbedhika˚ S i.63; A ii.178; Nd2 235; puṭhu˚ ibid.; bhāvita˚ S iv.111; A v.42 sq.; bhūri˚ S iii.143; iv.205; manda˚ VbhA 239; mahā˚ S i.63, 121; ii.155; A i.23, 25; ii.178 sq.; Nd2 235; SnA 347; sap˚ S i.13, 22, 212; iv.210; A iv.245; Pv i 88; 115; PvA 60 (=paṇḍita), 131 (+buddhimant); suvimutta˚ A v.29 sq.; hāsa˚ S i.63, 191; v.376; Nd2 235. By itself (i. e. not in cpd.) only at Dh 208 (=lokiyalokuttara -- paññāya sampanna DhA iii.172) and 375 (=paṇḍita DhA iv.111). 　 Buddhist Dict. 'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanā, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbāna (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattā) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhana. With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cintā-mayā-paññā), knowledge based on learning (suta-mayā-paññā), knowledge based on mental development (bhāvanā-mayā-paññā) (D. 33). " 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning. 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration" (appanā, q.v.) (Vis.M. XIV). Wisdom is one of the 5 mental faculties (s. bala), one of the 3 kinds of training (sikkhā, q.v.), and one of the perfections (s. pāramī) For further details, s. vipassanā, and the detailed exposition in Vis.M. XIV, 1-32. 　 　 Abhidhammattha-Sangaha 50. Paññindriya - Pa = rightly; ñā, to know, paññā, literally, means right knowing. Its chief characteristic is understanding as it really is, or irresistible understanding, i.e., penetrative knowledge (Yathāsabhāva-pativedho vā akkhalita-pativedho). As paññā dominates in understanding the real nature and as it overcomes ignorance, it is called a controlling faculty (indriya). In Abhidhamma ñāna, paññā, and amoha are used as interchangeable terms. In types of consciousness connected with knowledge (ñāna-sampayutta) the reference is to this paññā. By amoha, one of the three moral roots, is also meant this paññā. As one of the four means of accomplishing one's ends (iddhi-pāda) it assumes the name of vīmamsā (lit., examination). When purified by samādhi, paññā assumes the honorable role of abhiññā (higher knowledge). Highly developed paññā is elevated to the state of a bojjhanga-dhamma-vicaya (Investigation of the Truth) and magganga-sammā ditthi, Right View. The culmination of paññā is the Omniscience of a Buddha. Paññā, in the strictest sense of the term, is seeing things as they truly are, i.e., in the light of anicca (impermanence), dukkha (sorrow), and anattā (soullessness). Reason, intellect, insight, knowledge, wisdom, intelligence - all convey some aspects of paññā, but none of them exactly corresponds to the Pāli term. Both knowledge and wisdom are employed here according to the context. Mrs. Rhys David's comment on this important term is interesting. She writes:- "To fit the term paññā with its approximate European equivalent is one of the cruxes of Buddhist philosophy. I have tried in turn reason, intellect, insight, science, understanding and knowledge. All of these have been, and are, used in the literature of philosophy with varying shades of connotation, according as the sense to be conveyed is popular and vague, psychological and precise or transcendental and - passez-moi le mot - having precise vagueness. And each of them might, with one implication or another, represent paññā. The main difficulty in choice lay in determining whether, to the Buddhist, paññā stood for mental function, or for the aggregate product of certain mental functioning, or for both. When all the allusions to paññā in the Sutta Pitaka have been collated, a final translation becomes possible. Here it must suffice to quote two. M i. 292, he who has paññā (paññavā) is declared in virtue thereof to understand (pajānāti) the nature of the phenomenon of pain or ill (the Four Noble Truths). In D. i. 124 Gotama asks: what is this paññā? and himself sets out its content as consisting in certain intellectual attainments, viz., the Jhānas, insight into the nature of impermanence, the mental image of one's self, the power of iddhi, the cosmic Ear, insight into other minds, into one's own past lives, the cosmic Eye, and the elimination of all vitiating tendencies. Buddhaghosa also (Visuddhi Magga Ch. XIV,) distinguishes paññā from saññā and viññāna. He describes it as adequate to discern not only what these can, viz., sense-objects and the Three Marks (impermanence, pain and non-substantiality) respectively, but also the path. For him, then, it might be called intellect 'at a higher power'. And in Gotama's reply, all those terms are described in terms of intellectual process. Nevertheless, it is clear that the term did not stand for bare mental process of a certain degree of complexity, but that it also implied mental process as cultivated in accordance with a certain system of concepts objectively valid for all Buddhist adepts. Hence I think it best to reject such terms as reason, intellect, and understanding, and to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individual". 　 VII, The Seven Sambojjhanga by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt 　 The panna-cetasika called vimamsiddhipada, pannindriya, panna-bala, sammaditthi-magganga, are all dhammavicaya-sambojjhana. Alternatively, the five panna-visuddhi[123] beginning with ditthi-visuddhi, the three anu-passana-nana, the ten vipassana-nana are called dhammavicaya- sambojjhanga.Just as cotton seeds are milled, carded, etc., so as to produce cotton wool, the process of repeatedly viewing the five khandha with the functions of vipassana-nana is called dhammavicaya. 　 http://www.abhidhamma.com/txt_fundamentalabhidhamma_04.html#A10 9. Paññā cetasika – 1 Paññā is a mental state that realizes an object. It is termed in Pāḷi, "paññindriya", faculty of wisdom. Cetasika by Nina (last but not least ;-) ) Wisdom, paññá cetasika, which accompanies fortyseven cittas: twelve types of kåmåvacara cittas called ñåùa sampayutta, accompanied by paññá; twentyseven types of mahaggata cittas (jhånacittas), which are fifteen types of rúpåvacara cittas and twelve types of arúpåvacara cittas; and the eight types of lokuttara cittas. When we develop kusala, chanda may be predominant; it may have predominance over the accompanying dhammas, there are four factors which can be predominant, but only one at a time can be predominant. The four predominant factors (adhipatis) are: chanda, viriya, citta (particular types of citta) and "investigation" or "reflection" (vimamsa, which is panna cetasika)(1 See Dhammasangani 269, and Atthasalini I, Part VII, 212, 213. #125409 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:42 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > >=============== > > > > > RE: This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said > > > > > > I don't know how the RE got in front of this, but it is an RK comment, not mine. > > > ===== > > > > J: Apologies for that. A slip of either the finger or the mind (more likely the latter :-)) > > The mind is a slippery instrument! :-) I've tried to hold mine still, but it doesn't seem to take! > ========== J: I've noticed the same thing; it seems to have a mind of its own! Jon #125410 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125372) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I think the issue you raise here is something of a red herring :-)). > > > > Whether or not there is a 'relation' between dhammas and conventional concepts/objects is beside the point. > > RE: Whether or not it is beside the point, it seems to be the point of contention between folks as serious about the Dhamma as Ken H. & Rob K. So maybe it is worth addressing so as to settle the disagreement? > =============== J: Yes, well worth addressing. Indeed, that was the purpose of the rest of my message. To summarise, I said that: - The Buddha pointed out the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas as being the development of the path; - that development does not involve identifying a specific relationship between dhammas and concepts (i.e., identifying in exactly what way (if any) dhammas are related to concepts); - the Buddha in his teaching did not assert a relationship between dhammas and concepts of the kind you are suggesting (i.e., that concepts point to dhammas). In brief, the path can be developed to the full without dwelling on this point. > =============== > RE: In any case, I don't think it's beside the point at all, unless it is already settled that nothing we do in life means anything. Only direct understanding matters, and I don't think the Buddha ever said anything to suggest that pure understanding, removed from all life circumstances, was the only thing that mattered. > =============== J: I agree that it is only direct understanding that matters. All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). > =============== > RE: So it comes down to what is really an essential Dhamma argument, not beside the point at all, whether there is indeed an eightfold path, which includes other factors other than right understanding, or a one-fold path, which includes only right understanding, and in which all the other 7 factors are nothing but subsidiary aspects of right understanding. > =============== J: To my understanding, the path is eightfold in the sense that each moment of path-consciousness is accompanied by eight important mental factors, each performing its own function. > =============== > RE: Buddha never suggested that, but I think that is what it comes down to when one thinks that "understanding dhammas" stands alone without any other necessary supports, such as actual right action or right livelihood. If one thinks that right action - even with the word action in it - comes down to nothing but an arising dhamma that has no actual action in it, and that is true for all the factors, then there really is only right understanding, only mental factors, and then the Buddha's explicit exposition of the Dhamma is reduced to something quite one-dimensional compared to the diverse and balanced teaching that the Buddha enunciated during the course of his 40 years of teaching. > =============== J: Well that is the point of contention (as you say above :-)), namely whether the factors of the NEP are co-arising mental factors that accompany each moment of path consciousness, or whether they are a collection of things (including mental factors and things to do) having no apparent common denominator. (It may well be that the former seems 'one-dimensional' and the latter a 'diverse and balanced teaching' to you, but that is a purely subjective assessment :-)). The only way to resolve this issue is to look at the teachings as a whole, and to do so (I'd suggest) in the context of the commentarial texts. > =============== > RE: The reason it is not beside the point is because the Buddha did *not* say over and over again "all that matters is understanding dhammas." He said that the way we lived, acted, and spoke were all important parts of the path, without which the destruction of the defilements and the ultimate understanding that brings enlightenment, which is a matter of mental factors, would not ever come. > =============== J: Yes, agreed that the ultimate understanding that brings enlightenment is a matter of mental factors. But then so is the 'right' way of living, acting and speaking that you speak of. No action can be 'right' unless it is action that's accompanied by kusala consciousness; so it's down to mental factors again. 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. > =============== > RE: The Buddha pointed out that there are things that are real in the ultimate sense and that are not known as they truly are, and he declared that only by the development of understanding of these things can there be enlightenment and escape from samsara. > > He also said that without the other aspects of the path, such as right action, such understanding could not properly develop. The path does not emanate from purely intellectual activity. > =============== J: This is the point of contention I mention above :-)) > =============== > > J: The development of that understanding does not involve identifying any particular relationship between dhammas and conventional objects and, as far as I'm aware, the Buddha never asserted such a relationship as part of the development of the path. > > RE: Well he talked about life, action, meditation and dictates of right living continuously, both for monks and lay people. What does all that add up to? > =============== J: I would answer that (rhetorical) question of yours by one of my own: What did the Buddha (or what do the texts) *say* it all adds up to? :-)) > =============== > > J: I would say he was at pains to assert the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas. > > RE: Well he was also at pains to talk about all the conditions necessary to develop this, and that included how one lives in the conventional world. > =============== J: This is the same point of contention. > =============== > > J: I'm wondering what is the basis for the notion that "real activities exist in the world". Is this from the texts, or is it your personal experience? > > RE: It is from the Buddha's own mentioning of such things in very conventional contexts. While dhammas are always implicated, that doesn't mean that the actions and responses in the world are not meaningful. > =============== J: To my understanding, the 'meaningfulness' of actions and responses is a factor of the mental factors by which they are accompanied. > =============== > > J: You seem to be positing a 2-tier reality: (a) dhammas and (b) conventional objects/activities. > > RE: The Buddha said may times that ultimate reality and conventional reality were both true in their own realms, and that they did not contradict each other. > > "The Awakened One, the best of teachers, spoke of two truths, conventional and higher; no third is ascertained; a conventional statement is true because of convention and a higher statement is true as disclosing the true characteristics of events." > - Khathāvatthu Aṭṭha kathǎ > =============== J: But this passage does not state (or imply) the existence of a so-called 'conventional reality'. It says only that "a conventional statement is true because of convention". > =============== > >RE: And Nina has said as much most recently. > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > =============== J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? Jon #125411 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 6:59 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") ... S: I don't know that we can even talk about a "set of five khandhas" arising and falling away, followed by "a new set". Each reality, each khandha arises and falls away, different from each other reality. Whilst its true that each citta, each vinnana khandha must be accompanied by vedana, sanna and at least 5 more cetasikas, each sankhara khandha and that these namas arise and fall away at the same time, they don't arise and fall away at the same time as any rupas. For example, at the moment of seeing, seeing consciousness (vinnana khandha), the seeing arose together with vedana (vedana khandha), sanna (sanna khandha) and 5 more cetasikas (each sankhara khandha). However the visible object which appears had already arisen along with the other rupas in its kalapa as condition for seeing to arise. Furthermore, that visible object lasts for up to 17 cittas. All the other rupas conditioned by kamma, such as masculinity or femininity and so on are also arising and falling away all the time according to their own conditions and timing, rather than as a 'set' with the cittas, as I see it. Anyway, always back to this moment as you'd say - and the more understanding there is now of various dhammas when they appear, the less misled we'll be into thinking that a dog or any *thing* exists now or at any other time. Hope you're enjoying your holiday. Metta Sarah ==== #125412 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lodewijk & Lukas), Thank you for mentioning the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sarah gave a lovely reminder to Lodewijk after a severe test I want > to share. > Kh Sujin has plans to come to Europe and Lodewijk wanted to do his > utmost to have her and several friends here with us in the Hague. I > cautioned him since his health is fragile but he was very determined. > He had a beautiful plan with lots of Dhamma talk in our home and > luncheons. I became already excited seeing Kh Sujin and all friends, > but I also realized that this is lobha! Then he got sick and felt > that he had to cancel it, rather a shock. > Sarah wrote: > < She'll be most understanding. She'd also remind us to just > understand the dhammas now - no regrets! Anything can happen anytime, > but it's all still just seeing, hearing, thinking and so on...> > Sarah, we discussed this. Good to be reminded that we never know > conditions that make certain things happen. In the ultimate sense > there are just dhammas, seeing, hearing, thinking about lovely > dreams. Regrets are useless, best to have more understanding of any > reality now. > ------- S: Even when we make our plans, we know anything can happen. Dhammas are never in our control. It doesn't me we don't make plans, but there can be awareness anytime of thinking, attachment, seeing, visible object.....just ordinary dhammas. Lodewijk was being so kind, thinking of everyone's welfare. Sometimes we just can't manage everything we'd like to and it's time for equanimity. We can't stop having regrets but when there's awareness, it's apparent that these too are just moments of thinking with aversion. The Dhamma is so very practical - it always comes back to this moment. Now Lukas is making arrangements for Ajahn in Poland - we just do our best, thinking of others' welfare, but we never know how things will work out. Present understanding is so very precious. Metta Sarah ======= #125413 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 8:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Hi Dieter, > D: We need to go into detail. I was planning to assemble quotes on mindfulness, but when going through the 'Sati' section in the Useful Posts file, I noticed that most of the quotes are already there, so I'll just point to a couple that seem very useful to me: A post by Nina on technical intricacies of the definitions of mindfulness (remembering, non-forgetful, guarding, etc), quotes mostly from Vis and its commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42882 Further, while often the modern commentators mention the aspects of remembering, non-forgetfulness, etc, I was always wondering - remembering what, non-forgetful of what? Here a quote from the Expositor (commentary to Dhs) is useful - I copy this from a post by Howard: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/118392 < < Quote Expositor pg.160: And as that jewel, the confidential adviser of the universal monarch, knowing what is disadvantageous and what is advantageous, removes the disadvantageous and promotes the advantageous, so mindfulness, searching well the courses of advantageous and disadvantageous states: - 'these are disadvantageous states, misconduct in body,' etc., removes the disadvantageous states, and acquires the advantageous ones: - 'these are advantageous states, good conduct as regards body,' etc. End quote > > pt: "Advantageous" I take it means kusala or wholesome, hence the rendering of "sati" as "remembering what's kusala" - as in recollecting that right now - seems most appealing to me of all the definitions of mindfulness. Best wishes pt #125414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 5-jul-2012, om 17:40 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt　 > > The panna-cetasika called vimamsiddhipada, pannindriya, panna-bala, > sammaditthi-magganga, are all dhammavicaya-sambojjhana. > Alternatively, the five panna-visuddhi[123] beginning with ditthi- > visuddhi, the three anu-passana-nana, the ten vipassana-nana are > called dhammavicaya- sambojjhanga.Just as cotton seeds are milled, > carded, etc., so as to produce cotton wool, the process of > repeatedly viewing the five khandha with the functions of vipassana- > nana is called dhammavicaya. ------- N: Thank you for all the info. I remember some debates about the five khandhas, defined as abstract, and some wondering why seeing is a khandha, wondering whether khandha not denote just a group? When we look at the text above: This does not sound abstract at all:vipassanaa ~naa.na: direct understanding in different stages. Being aware again and again and investigating. What? realities, paramattha dhammas or the khandhas. The five khandhas are nothing else but conditioned paramattha dhammas. Seeing, visible object appearing right now. Are these not khandhas? When we understand khandha as a reality right now it may not be strange to hear: seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha. I hear Kh Sujin say time and again: it is not sufficient to just study texts, names, terms. Study with awareness reality right now. Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin: < The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near. Hence, khandha is sa"nkhata dhamma, the dhamma that is conditioned, which arises and falls away, and thus, it can be described as past, present, future, etc > As Sarah also explained: it arises and falls away. One cannot say this of something abstract, or something that is only a group. A group or a whole is not object of satipa.t.thaana and vipassanaa ~naa.na. ------ This is a good explanation by Sarah: a happening, reminding us to study the present moment, present understanding being so precious: Sarah: ------ Nina. #125415 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. moellerdieter Dear Nina (Sarah and Howard), you wrote: by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt　 > > The panna-cetasika called vimamsiddhipada, pannindriya, panna-bala, > sammaditthi-magganga, are all dhammavicaya-sambojjhana. > Alternatively, the five panna-visuddhi[123] beginning with ditthi- > visuddhi, the three anu-passana-nana, the ten vipassana-nana are > called dhammavicaya- sambojjhanga.Just as cotton seeds are milled, > carded, etc., so as to produce cotton wool, the process of > repeatedly viewing the five khandha with the functions of vipassana- > nana is called dhammavicaya. ------- N: Thank you for all the info. D: You are wellcome .I suppose there are interesting details waiting to be discussed , useful in particular if we manage a common understanding of the meaning(s). N: I remember some debates about the five khandhas, defined as abstract, and some wondering why seeing is a khandha, wondering whether khandha not denote just a group? D: I suggest to agree on both definitions . If we want to be precise , we should have in mind what Ven. Nyanatiloka wrote: "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha..snip" For our general discussion khandha and 'it's dhammas' may be understood to be the same. N:When we look at the text above: This does not sound abstract at all:vipassanaa ~naa.na: direct understanding in different stages. Being aware again and again and investigating. What? realities, paramattha dhammas or the khandhas. The five khandhas are nothing else but conditioned paramattha dhammas. Seeing, visible object appearing right now. Are these not khandhas? When we understand khandha as a reality right now it may not be strange to hear: seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha. D: correctly speaking : the group or aggregate vinnana khandha includes the dhammas eye consciousness ,ear consciousness, etc. I like to quote Howard's nice comment recently : "For some reason, Sarah and some others, despite the clear meaning of 'khandha' as "group"/"collection"/"aggregate", call individual namas and rupas "khandhas," a usage I find odd but their usage nonetheless. So, whether it "grates on the ear" or not (LOL!), the usage should be understood and accepted for the sake of good conversation" I try my best :-) N: . I hear Kh Sujin say time and again: it is not sufficient to just study texts, names, terms. Study with awareness reality right now. D: yes, with sati (first place of the 7) as a base N: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin: < The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near. Hence, khandha is sa"nkhata dhamma, the dhamma that is conditioned, which arises and falls away, and thus, it can be described as past, present, future, etc >As Sarah also explained: it arises and falls away. One cannot say this of something abstract, or something that is only a group. A group or a whole is not object of satipa.t.thaana and vipassanaa ~naa.na. ------ D "The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as past, future or present" This is not yet clear to me ,because when we speak of reality , we speak of the present moment, don't we? So past (gone) and future (not yet there) are not reality . Reality is presented by Paramatha Dhamma , which is the Abhidhamma synonym for khandha. N:This is a good explanation by Sarah: a happening, reminding us to study the present moment, present understanding being so precious: Sarah: D: yes, precious . Taking care for others without thinking about advantages for oneself , has certainly much to do with Brahma Vihara when respective wholesome cetasikas accompany the citta. with Metta Dieter #125416 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 2:44 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and Rob K., Ken H., all. If I may jump in for a couple of quick questions... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Of course, rupas arise at a particular location... If rupas arise at a particular location, then I think we must either be talking about a sort of matrix of rupas that create that relative location, or about a physical world in which locations exist. If rupas arise at a particular location relative to other arising rupas - in other words, an experiential pattern of arisings of some sort, could you say a further word about how that works? Otherwise it would seem that rupas have no location, if there is no physical world, no matrix, within which they arise. > S: I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. If it is true that it is merely conventional language in order to talk about the paramatha dhammas in question, why designate a specific location in the body, and an association - a very sensible one - with a physical organ? It seems that this association must be purposeful and have a meaning other than merely using general conventional language. If the heart-base is located within the physical heart, in the blood that pumps through the heart in that location, that is a very specific and sensible association which shows some correspondence between the physical reality that we know as the "heart" and the function of the paramatha dhamma known as the heart-base. I think it would be strange to take such a clear association given by someone so advanced who is explaining this association in order to elucidate the functioning of the dhamma, and not take it as important and correct information. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125417 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement colette_aube Hi Sarah, > S: Even when we make our plans, we know anything can happen. Dhammas are never in our control. It doesn't mean we don't make plans, but there can be awareness anytime of thinking, attachment, seeing, visible object.....just ordinary dhammas. > > Lodewijk was being so kind, thinking of everyone's welfare. Sometimes we just can't manage everything we'd like to and it's time for equanimity. We can't stop having regrets but when there's awareness, it's apparent that these too are just moments of thinking with aversion. The Dhamma is so very practical - it always comes back to this moment. ---------- BALDERDASH! UTTER NON-SENSE! NO SIR! The entire problem is built on the foundation of "CONTROL" Dhammas, as you were saying, DO NOT MAKE PLANS but just as true DHARMAS ARE ONLY A GUIDE THAT POINTS IN A DIRECTION, DHARMAS ARE NOT RULES IN THEMSELVES i.e. CITTA. As long as the foundation exists, upon which a mind delusions or hallucinates an aspect of "CONTROL" then failure will always follow. This failure will leave a taste in the mouth of the victim and thus is created our good friend THE HUNGRY GHOST. Which pocket did I put that in? Am I actually sitting on CRAVING and DESIRE? Sure hope not since I'd rather leave those professionals in Bangkok doing what they do best <....> People have to consciously acknowledge the existence of their desire to CONTROL and to BE IN CONTROL, especially in this time, in this new world that we are experiencing TOGETHER. toodles, colette #125418 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:14 am Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Hi Rob E Correct at the end. No control. If I was going through life abusing people -and the basic awareness that would or would not tell me that it was happenening is uncontrollable but woupd probably arise due to its habitual arising- I would be worried. (Another uncontrollable but fairly predictable arising) But for some reason the only people I dislike these days are here at DSG, and you are one of them. There is no impulse arising to apologize for this, maybe there will be at a later time. Hard to say. Is Abhidhamma a conceptual framework to write about eloquently, with delight, endlessly, or the realities of this present moment? Or both? Anyways, hopefully there will be an end of Phil disliking Rob E. No way to know. You can call that misuse of Abhidhamma if you like. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Phil - you're back - what a surprise! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > I would like to say again that posting this sort of thing and other pleas for kind and gentle speech indicates, in my opinion, a subtle belief in the ability to influence other people's behaviour. > > This is nothing but a misuse of Abhidhamma as an excuse for your own unkind comments. It shows a serious misunderstanding of the difference between 'no-control' and just being plain old irresponsible. Slapping someone and then saying 'not my fault it's due to conditions' is an abuse of the Dhamma, plain and simple. > > The fact is, you can take in what others say and you can respond to it. No 'you,' but if you are not stubborn, change can still take place - and should. > > > I *enjoy* disliking the people I dislike, I *enjoy* writing rude things to them. > > Well it's true that you are rude and seem to only care about what makes you feel good. What you enjoy is not important. You should control yourself. That's right, buck up and stop speaking this way. > > ... > > > Anyways, just wanted to post the above as a reminder for the next time there is an outbreak of bad behaviour and anyone feels the need to try to change others' behaviour. Better to have some bad behaviour than a belief in the controllability of dhammas. > > It's not an either/or choice. Actually people can criticize you and try to get you to change your behavior without having a belief in direct control. Everything conditions change, including what is said here. > > > I'll be gone again as soon as this is posted, so won't be able to respond further. > > You won't be gone, Phil. You promised this a week or two ago, but in fact you can't resist coming back just to harass people. > > > p.s I have come to realize that my problem here is not that I can't stand criticism or disagreement about Abhidhamma. It's just that I just plain dislike some people because of their tone, style of posting and other snooty aesthetic things, and strongly enough that I have decided to leave. > > Yet, you will not leave. I guess that's another thing you can't control. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = > #125419 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:42 am Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Hi again Rob E One reality I note is that I $don't$ enjoy disliking you at this moment, perhaps an apology is coming! Let's see.... ummmmmm.....ahhhhhh...nnnnnnngggg....no. But I don't dislike you at this moment. Sweet ephemeral blissful moment! And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! But I will be gone. I am more interested in yoga and mysticism than Dhamma these days, I think it will be temporary, back to Dhamma focus someday, I predict (but cannot control, anatta.) Phil #125420 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:29 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 jonoabb Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear jon > > > Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. > > > =============== > > > > J: Thanks Rob. The post you've copied here appears to consist of quotes from the Visuddhimagga. You say there was a post a few days ago that brought objections, but I've not been able to find it. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Dear Jon, > I meant this one and following ones: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/125275 > RK: Of course nina, Buddhaghosa and me all know that > in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arising and > passing away. What we call a dog is merely a designation for the elements right? > ------ > > KH: Right, but why do you also talk about streams? I have always noticed that > meditators (people who believe in control over dhammas) like to talk about > streams of dhammas. The rest of us (I would have thought} prefer to talk about > the presently arisen citta, cetasikas and rupas or just the present > dhamma-arammana. > =============== J: As I read KenH's message, he's not objecting to the concept of a stream as such. He's questioning your statement that "Buddhaghosa and me know that in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arising and passing away". His point, I believe, is that at the moment that what we take for a being is the object of consciousness, the reality is simply namas and rupas, and that any idea of a stream of cittas is just that, an idea and not direct knowing (for you, that is, although not necessarily for Buddhaghosa!). Rob, KenH is simply picking up on something you've said, and I don't see why you wouldn't respond to him as in any other thread (of course, there's always the option of not responding at all). You were, as you've explained, seeking to highlight his wrong understanding, so he no doubt feels entitled to question your comments in response -- a normal part of the cut and thrust of a such a discussion. Jon PS I express no view on the merits of the arguments for either `side', but since you asked me to comment on the way the discussion has progressed, I've done just that. #125421 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:33 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >A:What doesn't exist is something that is constant (nicca), >ultimately happy (sukha), and thing-in-itself (Atta) with the former >features. With this, we do not have problem with conventional >actions. > >======================================================== > >RE:Agreed. The only part that I am not sure about is no "atta with >the former features." Could you please explain what you mean by >that? > > ================================= > > >A: There isn't anything that is nicca and ultimately sukha. I agree with anatta as long as we don't take it to mean that no things exist at all. Conditioned dhammas do exist. Their arrangements into what we call "wholes" do exist. .... S: Are there any conditioned dhammas that exist other than names and rupas? Metta Sarah ===== #125422 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >Kh Sujin: The development of pa~n~naa is a long process, ciira kala >bhaavanaa. > >============== > >A: And in the suttas the opposite is said. SN38 > > -"if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would it take him long to become an arahant?" > -"Not long, friend. - SN38.16 > > NACIRA.M not cira kala! ... S: "If......." As I wrote: "...the test is at this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what appears. If there is an idea of catching or focussing on a reality or there is no idea what reality is appearing, we can be sure there needs to be a lot more listening, considering and careful reflection on dhammas as anatta." If there is no awareness, no understanding of the dhammas appearing now as anatta, not in anyone's control, it is not the practise "in accordance with the Dhamma". Is there any understanding of seeing now? Visible object? Hearing? Thinking? ... > The suttas are filled with with teachings of quick progress. In MN85 thge Buddha said that He could make good student an Arahant within one day. Satipatthana sutta promises arhatship within 7 days if one fully does it. Bahiya became an Arahant in a minute or so... etc etc. > > > >S: Alex will object, of course. > > Right, check the suttas. .... S: More precious is to check whether there is any understanding, any detachment towards the realities of life now. Do they appear or are they hidden by the cloak of ignorance? ... > >S:We don't have to think about when or how long, but the test is at >this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what > >========================== > > I think we do. Maybe the lack of quick progress is due to lack of right effort or understanding. ... S: When we're thinking and wondering about quicker progress and "how long?", what kind of cittas are these? Is that effort and understanding atta or anatta? ... > > While I understand that we have to be realistic, I do wonder about the correctness of "Buddhist" path that takes long time. I understand that "Arhatship this day" is highly unlikely, I also don't approve of thousands of lifetimes more of accumulations. This seems to me to be an excuse for not doing something right in the context of all that suttas have said. ... S: "Doing or not doing something right" ..... again this is an idea of atta, not the understanding of dhammas with detachment. Attachment, ignorance, ditthi ....all kinds of dhammas have to be known now. When there is understanding, there is no concern about when arahatship may occur. Metta Sarah ===== #125423 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, (Jon, Rob E & Rob K), Thanks for the good quotes on pa~n~naa. Unfortunately, when quoting from the dictionaries one needs to re-write the Pali words with diacriticals as otherwise they all come out like this, making it hard to read. A good way would be to retype panna or pa~n~naa and copy and paste wherever it shows. Pt may have other suggestions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > PTS > > Pañña > > Pañña ( -- ˚) (adj.) [the adj. form of paññā] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition, in foll. cpds.: anissaraṇa˚ D ... S: For the others above, some of Mrs RD's comments might be an example of someone writing one thing (translating and presenting Abhidhamma, for example) whilst holding other beliefs such as "dry bones", "soul" and so on. Here she is writing about pa~n~naa, but her final conclusion is: > Mrs. Rhys David's comment on this important term is interesting. She writes:- "And in Gotama's reply, all those terms are described in terms of intellectual process. Nevertheless, it is clear that the term did not stand for bare mental process of a certain degree of complexity, but that it also implied mental process as cultivated in accordance with a certain system of concepts objectively valid for all Buddhist adepts. Hence I think it best to reject such terms as reason, intellect, and understanding, and to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individual". When the Dhamma is described thus and panna is seen as "applied by the intellect of a given individual"....."wisdom or science, or knowledge, or philosophy".... no wonder it seems like dry bones! Metta Sarah ===== #125424 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125372) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > > > =============== > > > RE: If one willfully kills beings, one generates akusala kamma, even if one knows that ultimately there are no beings. The caterpillars are not real as such, but the cittas and rupas that are produced when 'caterpillars are trampled' are real, and they create suffering for the 'caterpillar's cittas' and kamma for he who does the trampling. The blind man was blameless because he was blind, and thus had no choice and no desire to kill with regard to the caterpillars. > > > =============== > > > > J: I'm not sure that 'having no choice' is a relevant consideration. It's purely a matter of whether or not there's the intention to take life. > > RE: Well that makes sense to me, too, but if one "has no choice" that just clarifies that there is no intention to kill, even if some "crunching rupas" take place by happenstance. If there "were a choice" with no intention to kill, the monk would merely walk around the caterpillars and spare them the suffering of being crunched. > =============== J: Well, I don't think there is only 1 possibility. People act in all sorts of ways. The only thing that can be said with certainty is that if the requisite intention is not present, then it can't be kamma patha. > =============== > RE: In any case, your view on this contradict's Ken H.'s interpretation that the monk was fine because he understood that "there were really no caterpillars to kill" rather than the point that "there was no intention to kill," with which I agree. > =============== J: All that matters here is that we agree :-)) Jon #125425 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter (& Nina) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Nina, all, > > you wrote: > > "Someone of our group remarked that he did not understand why the Thais > paid such deep respect ..." > > It has a lot to do as well with knowing (and overcoming ) one's conceit > (mana) .. ... S: I think it's good to highlight the mana. As we know, many people could not pay respect to the Buddha himself even. Mana and wrong view too, not understanding or appreciating the Teachings. Of course, having said this, respect is in the citta. We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Metta Sarah ===== #125426 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:14 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording jonoabb Hi Rob E (125373) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: If we're talking about the contemplation of a conceptual object, then we're talking about samatha bhavana (not vipassana bhavana), right? > > RE: That is not what I had in mind. I am thinking of the development of pariyatti, which, if I understand it correctly, which I very well may not, involves the conceptual understanding of how dhammas actually behave. In other words, it is the understanding of how dhammas behave, but without yet actually being able to experience them directly. Please let me know where I am off-base. It seems that defining pariyatti is an adventure in swimming through quicksand. > > Anyway, contemplation of the direct characteristics of dhammas, etc., should lead to the development of understanding via pariyatti, not samatha bhavana. As I understand it, the kind of concept that leads to samatha bhavana are concepts such as the breath known on a conceptual rather than a direct level, and other objects of that sort, such as meditative nimittas, kasinas, etc. When talking about pariyatti I am talking about contemplation of Dhamma, not meditation objects. > ... > I am talking about contemplation of the concepts of Dhamma, not meditation. You may question this as well, but it's a very different subject. If you read a commentary and gain some understanding of what is being said about the characteristics of dhammas, or discuss them as we do here, and some understanding develops, that is the kind of thing I'm talking about. > =============== J: You are familiar with the 2 kinds of mental development spoken of in the texts: samatha bhavana (the development of calm/tranquility) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight). Samatha bhavana involves the contemplation or recollection, with panna, of a conceptual object, whereas vipassana is the direct experience that knows, with panna, the characteristic of a dhamma. Now here's where it gets a bit tricky. One of the conceptual objects of *samatha bhavana* is the Dhamma (i.e., the teachings). So any "contemplation of the concepts of Dhamma", if kusala accompanied by panna, would have to be samatha bhavana rather than vipassana bhavana. And the beginning level of *vipassana bhavana* is the intellectual understanding of the teaching about dhammas, in which there is no actual direct experience of a dhamma but there is correct intellectual understanding about dhammas and the present moment. Hoping this illuminates, rather than conceals, the path through the quicksand :-)) Jon #125427 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi RobE (125386) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: There is a difference between having two sets of beliefs and having one real and one false belief. I don't think a scientist will announce something as true that he does not believe is actual, even though he may have a personal belief that appears to contradict it. Einstein said that "God doesn't play dice with the Universe," yet all of his work was about provable formulas, not spiritual pronouncements. I would say that those beliefs were not contradictory to him, not that one was a 'held' belief and the other was not. I think we can hold more than one belief at a time. > =============== J: I have no particular disagreement with what you write here (if I've understood you correctly). But a person reading Einstein's scientific work without knowing what he has said about 'spiritual' matters, and not viewing the work as simply part of a scientific/academic exercise, could well draw an incorrect conclusion about his held beliefs. Jon #125428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 6-jul-2012, om 17:54 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D "The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as > past, future or present" > This is not yet clear to me ,because when we speak of reality , we > speak of the present moment, don't we? So past (gone) and future > (not yet there) are not reality . Reality is presented by Paramatha > Dhamma , which is the Abhidhamma synonym for khandha. ------- N: Also the Abhidhamma teaches about the khandhas. Present can have several meanings. Here are some quotes from my Vis. studies, Ch XIV: The Tiika explains that the classifications of present, past and future as extent (or life span, addhaa), as continuity (serial presence, santati) and as period, samaya, are figurative expressions (sapariyaaya), not literal (nippariyaaya). It explains that there are other dhammas (ae dhammaa) at present, that there were other dhammas in the past and that there will be other dhammas in the future. This refers to the classification of extent, addhaa, etc. Not to the classification as to moment, kha.na). As we shall see, only the classification according to moment, kha.na, is to be taken literally. ****** Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with moment, kha.na. Kha.na is different from the word moment as it is used in conventional language where it has a wider meaning. Whereas kha.na has a very precise meaning. It refers to the infinitesimally short moments of naama and ruupa. Citta has its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution. Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its dissolution. When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door. The Expositor deals with many meanings of the term arisen, uppanna. We read: Thus, kha.na does not refer to life period, nor to serial presence. It refers to moment in the ultimate sense, namely arising, presence, and dissolution. ----------- Text Vis. 190: (d) 'According to moment': what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. ------------------------------ The Tiika explains that the classification according to moment, kha.na is according to time (kala). ------- Nina. #125429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording nilovg Dear pt, Op 6-jul-2012, om 12:20 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > "Advantageous" I take it means kusala or wholesome, hence the > rendering of "sati" as "remembering what's kusala" - as in > recollecting that right now - seems most appealing to me of all the > definitions of mindfulness. ------ N: In the Questions of King Milinda III, 7, 1 (Book III, Ch 7) we find 16 or 17 kinds of sati, here translated as memory. It has to be remembrance that is kusala. One can remember kusala and akusala of the past (saranato). In the case of akusala, one realizes that it was wrong, "not again". Usually we think of the past with lobha and dosa, but we see that this is useless. It can be the object of sati, accompanying kusala citta. The explanations in the text are very short and Kh Sujin in a recording gives more explanations. For example: by calculation, gananato: one remembers in classifications of realities how many of this or that. I think even when looking up Pali words in a dictionary, this can be with sati. We remember former dukkha (ahita vi~n~naanato) and former sukha (hita vi~n~naanato). Former sukha cannot return, it is impermanent. We just remember stories about it. Or we see someone who is like our deceased father or mother, this can be remembered with sati (sabhaaga nimittato). Yes, I remember this sometimes, seeing someone in a wheelchair like my late father. Does he need help? Actually all these examples show us that there are always reminders for sati in everyday life. We can consider Dhamma in all the details of our life. Never enough. ------ Nina. #125430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 nilovg Dear Phil, Op 7-jul-2012, om 1:42 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words > and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! ------- N: I just listened to KK , in March, and there you spoke quite differently from your last posts. About kusala: never enough! You repeated that. Gentle and kind speech are among kusala siila. Our manners, as Kh Sujin explained. You seemed to agree :-)) ----- Nina. #125431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:56 am Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 7 nilovg Dear friends, When we come to know realities as they are there will be more truthfulness in our life. When, for example, sound appears and there is mindfulness of sound as only a reality, we will know sound as it is. We will know hearing as it is, visible object as it is, seeing as it is. We shall have a clearer understanding of what our life really is: only nma and rpa. When delusion about reality diminishes we shall be less inclined to delude ourselves and others. When the Bodhisatta was the elephant Chaddanta (Chandanta Jtaka, no. 51) he was pierced in the navel by a poisonous shaft, but he had no hate towards the hunter. When the hunter told him that he had been ordered to take his tusks for the queen of Ksi, Chaddanta knelt down, cut off his own tusks and gave them to the hunter. After that he died. When the Bodhisatta was the Great Monkey he pulled a man out of a rocky chasm (Jtaka no. 71). The man who was hungry and wanted to eat the monkey dashed a stone on his head. The monkey looked at him with eyes full of tears and warned him for the result of such a deed: Oh act not so, good sir, or else The fate you reap will long deter All others from such deeds as this That you would do to me today. The monkey felt no hate and wanted to help the man; regardless of his own pain he saw to it that the man reached his journeys end in safety. The Buddha who had practised mett without equal preached mett to others. We read in the Mett Sutta (Sutta-nipta vs. 143-152): ... May creatures all be of a blissfull heart. Let no one work another ones undoing Or even slight him at all anywhere; And never let them wish each other ill Through provocation or resentful thought... Venerable Dhammadharo related to us an example of mett. A woman in Indonesia lost her husband because of the reckless driving of a young man. They caught the young man and brought him to her but she did not want to have him sent to court and even wished to pay for his education. This woman had mett without limits. -------- Nina. #125432 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Hi pt, you wrote: I was planning to assemble quotes on mindfulness, but when going through the 'Sati' section in the Useful Posts file, I noticed that most of the quotes are already there, so I'll just point to a couple that seem very useful to me: A post by Nina on technical intricacies of the definitions of mindfulness (remembering, non-forgetful, guarding, etc), quotes mostly from Vis and its commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42882 Further, while often the modern commentators mention the aspects of remembering, non-forgetfulness, etc, I was always wondering - remembering what, non-forgetful of what? D: I think the framework of satipatthana is meant (i.e. being mindful of body, feeling,mind and mind-objects ) i.e. in relation to recognizing what is going on here-and-now. pt: Here a quote from the Expositor (commentary to Dhs) is useful - I copy this from a post by Howard: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/118392 < < Quote Expositor pg.160: And as that jewel, the confidential adviser of the universal monarch, knowing what is disadvantageous and what is advantageous, removes the disadvantageous and promotes the advantageous, so mindfulness, searching well the courses of advantageous and disadvantageous states: - 'these are disadvantageous states, misconduct in body,' etc., removes the disadvantageous states, and acquires the advantageous ones: - 'these are advantageous states, good conduct as regards body,' etc. End quote > > D: it describes Right Effort (the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things ) pt: "Advantageous" I take it means kusala or wholesome, hence the rendering of "sati" as "remembering what's kusala" - as in recollecting that right now - seems most appealing to me of all the definitions of mindfulness. D: I understand advantageous states in such way that right effort provides a base for sati (and jhana) with Metta Dieter P.S: I like to follow Sarah's advise : "Unfortunately, when quoting from the dictionaries one needs to re-write the Pali words with diacriticals as otherwise they all come out like this, making it hard to read. A good way would be to retype panna or pa~n~naa and copy and paste wherever it shows. Pt may have other suggestions." I tried to use the Pali Digital reader , but Fire Fox crashes for -so far - unknown reasons . Do you have any idea what to do except retyping? #125433 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 3:09 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:Are there any conditioned dhammas that exist other than names and >rupas? >================================== The "whole" made up of parts ("nama&rupa") does exist as "whole" that is anicca, dukkha, anatta. With best wishes, Alex #125434 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 3:32 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: If there is an idea of catching or focussing on a reality or >there is no idea what reality is appearing, we can be sure there >needs to be a lot more listening, considering and careful reflection >on dhammas as anatta." > >If there is no awareness, no understanding of the dhammas appearing >now as anatta, not in anyone's control, it is not the practise "in >accordance with the Dhamma". > >Is there any understanding of seeing now? Visible object? Hearing? >Thinking? >=============================================== The mind is going to think of something or intend something, so it might be better to focus on Dhamma and kusala rather than akusala. >S: More precious is to check whether there is any understanding, any >detachment towards the realities of life now. Do they appear or are >they hidden by the cloak of ignorance? >======================================== And even better, develop more and more understanding and dispassion. What to check if one's wisdom and kusala is not growing? >S: When we're thinking and wondering about quicker progress and >"how long?", what kind of cittas are these? Is that effort and >understanding atta or anatta? >========== There is difference between tanha and wholesome motivation for the path. Without latter progress cannot be made, at least for a beginner. > S: "Doing or not doing something right" ..... again this is an idea >of atta, not the understanding of dhammas with detachment. >===================== It is a statement of reality. Something is going to be done, so it might as well be something kusala* rather than akusala. *even if kusala means reading a Dhamma book or contemplating realities. >S:Attachment, ignorance, ditthi ....all kinds of dhammas have to be >known now. When there is understanding, there is no concern about >when arahatship may occur. >======================== You keep saying about knowing if wisdom, and other qualities are present or not, but what about developing more kusala? With best wishes, Alex #125435 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Hi Dieter, > D: I think the framework of satipatthana is meant (i.e. being mindful of body, feeling,mind and mind-objects ) i.e. in relation to recognizing what is going on here-and-now. pt: My thinking is that it would have to be a bit more fundamental than that. I.e. sati arises not just in moments of satipatthana, but also with all other kusala cittas that are not satipatthana, and most of them aren't. > D: it describes Right Effort (the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things ) ... > D: I understand advantageous states in such way that right effort provides a base for sati (and jhana) pt: Again, I'd think it would be a bit more fundamental than that. I mean, effort can be a power, sure, but so can mindfulness. And then, as mentioned before, there are all the other kusala cittas that are not "right". > P.S: > I tried to use the Pali Digital reader , but Fire Fox crashes for -so far - unknown reasons . Do you have any idea what to do except retyping? pt: Perhaps using a transliterator/converter is the quickest: http://www.granthamandira.com/diCrunch/diCrunch.php Here's a bit on how to use it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/122319 Best wishes pt #125436 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 8:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Hi Nina Yes, of course, gentle speech, kind manners, they develop - or they don't. There is a lot of confidence about how I support my students, some of them mentally troubled to a degree that tge school staff thinks they should be hospitalized. I have taught thousands and thousands of hours in the classroom without showing displeasure, that is the way conditions are at wowk in me. They are, alas, not at work in a way that conditiins patience and generosity at DSG. For me, now, tge greatse value of Dhamma is the anatta aspect. I am also interested in another religion in which atta is glorified. I feel tyat modern Buddhism as practiced popularly and promoted by the oft-quoted "99% " on the internet is rooted in well being for the self, and emotional comfort at tge expense of a true appreciation of the teaching that sets Dhamma apart from all otger ways, anatta. And I sometimes feel DSG places an emphasis on friendly co-exstence at all cost. That feeling of mine is akusala, rooted in ignorance. But it is tgere, it is the way conditions are playing out for me. I would rather understand that than turn away from it in regretful panic and plead for forgiveness. Obviously it would be much better and happier for me if I felt brotherhood with everyine here, but I don't, I dislike some people. Those people hopefully have enough understanding of Dhamma to know that this being disliked is simply a function of akusala dhammas and won't be upset by it. As for you I also hope that you understand this. Because you are elderly and respected deeply should I take care to be gentler so DSG is always a warm and happy place for you to discss Dhamma. Yes, I should. But shoulds don't carry much weight when it comes to the functioning of a cumulated akusala, as you know. Kusala. Never enough. Agrred. Kysala at every opportunity. Agreed. But f it always worked that way the Buddha wouldn't have needed to teach in the world. Anyways, thank you Nina. No further comment. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 7-jul-2012, om 1:42 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words > > and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! > ------- > N: I just listened to KK , in March, and there you spoke quite > differently from your last posts. About kusala: never enough! You > repeated that. Gentle and kind speech are among kusala siila. Our > manners, as Kh Sujin explained. You seemed to agree :-)) > > ----- > Nina. > > > > > #125437 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 10:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Hello again Nina Thinking again about your point. At work, kusala arises because it has become tge tendency for it to arise. I don't intend to be a generous, caring teacher and don't plan to. It just happens, no matter how ill-tempered I feel when I arrive at work. On the other hand, I have always behaved badly here, starting with my entertaining fight with James in 2004 and over the years leading up to my current irritation with certain people. I don't intend to or want to, it just happens. That won't change, could have something to do with the internet, I wouldn't dislike those people face to face. Accumulated tendencies. They are real. If we expect to change them we will fall into the akusala of self-rooted striving. (There are exceptions to this when forceful intervention is possible, as with Lukas seeking professiinal treatment for his drug addiction. No rehabilitation possible for rude soeech! Well, actually, there is. I could misunderstand the Dhamma to tge degree that I would choose to do "metta meditation" wuth certain people as the " diffucult person" and it would impact my beviour towards them, that is my experience, but fortunately there are conditions for abstaining from self-rooted, lobha-rooted practices such as "metta meditation." No panicking and running away from akusala for me, at this time. Thanks for your understanding. Phil #125438 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 1:33 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Hi Nina, > N: One can remember kusala and akusala of > the past (saranato). In the case of akusala, one realizes that it was > wrong, "not again". Usually we think of the past with lobha and dosa, > but we see that this is useless. It can be the object of sati, > accompanying kusala citta. Thanks, that is interesting, I haven't really considered this aspect before - remembering kusala and akusala of the past, with sati now. Best wishes pt #125439 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 2:14 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ----- <. . .> >> KH: One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") >> > S: I don't know that we can even talk about a "set of five khandhas" arising and falling away, followed by "a new set". Each reality, each khandha arises and falls away, different from each other reality. Whilst its true that each citta, each vinnana khandha must be accompanied by vedana, sanna and at least 5 more cetasikas, each sankhara khandha and that these namas arise and fall away at the same time, they don't arise and fall away at the same time as any rupas. ------- KH: Thanks, I can never remember which rupas arise with which namas even though you and others have explained it to me. So, when seeing consciousness falls away to be replaced by viriya consciousness, and then by mind consciousness etc., the eye base rupa remains (even though it is no longer in use)? I was thinking it would fall away. I might have asked you this before, but sometimes a sense-door citta process lasts less than 17 citta moments, doesn't it? Is that because the sense rupa was not strong, or is it because the arresting citta (or the citta that began the citta process) was not strong? My theory was that the rupa didn't last. And so I decided by analogy that the eye-base rupa would also not last 17 moments. Now that I think about it, I am at least partly right, aren't I? If I had better internet access I would check the DSG files, but we commonly say "rupa lasts for up to 17 citta moments," don't we? So why would we assume the sense base rupas last 17 moments? ------------------ > S: For example, at the moment of seeing, seeing consciousness (vinnana khandha), the seeing arose together with vedana (vedana khandha), sanna (sanna khandha) and 5 more cetasikas (each sankhara khandha). However the visible object which appears had already arisen along with the other rupas in its kalapa as condition for seeing to arise. Furthermore, that visible object lasts for up to 17 cittas. All the other rupas conditioned by kamma, such as masculinity or femininity and so on are also arising and falling away all the time according to their own conditions and timing, rather than as a 'set' with the cittas, as I see it. ------------------ KH: Thanks for pointing that out. I will try to see it that way too but, knowing me, we will be having this same conversation again. Once I get something in my head right or wrong it tends to stay there. :-) ----------- > S: Anyway, always back to this moment as you'd say - and the more understanding there is now of various dhammas when they appear, the less misled we'll be into thinking that a dog or any *thing* exists now or at any other time. Hope you're enjoying your holiday. ---------- KH: Having a great time thanks even though not much sunshine. But it's the same wherever we go, just one citta lasting one citta moment. Plus whatever rupas there might be! :-) Ken H #125440 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 10:01 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 8 nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha who extended mett to all beings without exception exhorted others to have mett as well. When we are treated unjustly by others we may wonder whether we should do anything about it. When we develop satipatthna we shall understand more clearly that we cannot do anything. The experience of praise and blame, honour and dishonour is only vipka which arises because of conditions. We read in the Parable of the Saw (Middle Length sayings I, 21) that the Buddha said: ... Monks, as low-down thieves might carve one limb from limb with a double-handed saw, yet even then whoever sets his mind at enmity, he, for this reason, is not a doer of my teaching. Herein, monks, you should train yourselves thus: Neither will our minds become perverted, nor will we utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will we dwell, with a mind of friendliness, void of hatred; and, beginning with him, we will dwell having suffused the whole world with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide- spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. This is how you must train yourselves, monks. If you, monks, were to attend repeatedly to this exhortation on the Parable of the Saw, would you, monks, see any way of speech, subtle or gross, that you could not endure? No, Lord. Wherefore, monks, consider repeatedly this exhortation on the Parable of the Saw; for a long time it will be for your welfare and happiness. Thus spoke the Lord. Delighted, these monks rejoiced in what the Lord had said. In many lives the Bodhisatta had given the example of such mett as he preached in the Parable of the Saw. We might find this parable rather incomprehensible. Is it not going too far to dwell with a mind of friendliness even when we are being carved limb from limb? Those who develop satipatthna will understand this parable. When we see that our life is nma and rpa we will not try to do anything about people who treat us badly. There is seeing now, can we do anything about it? There is hearing now, can we do anything about it? We see and hear pleasant and unpleasant things, but we cannot prevent seeing and hearing from arising. They are only vipka, arising because of conditions. All that matters is right understanding of the nmas and rpas that appear. When there is right understanding of realities we can cope with difficult situations in our life, without the need to do anything. ---------- Nina. #125441 From: Lukas Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 11:01 pm Subject: Short reflection to share szmicio Dear friends, Even with dosa, no matter how strog and unpleassant, there also ayatana comes. They comes all the time. I think this is good to not forget. Just ayatanas meet, they go they own way, with anger or not. This are only ayatanas, no one there. Best wishes Lukas #125442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unicode converter. nilovg Dear pt, I copied all, not sure if I can work with it. And then, when sent on Email, will it keep Unicode? Alex seems to be very succesful with this. Nina. Op 8-jul-2012, om 4:55 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt: Perhaps using a transliterator/converter is the quickest: #125443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 nilovg Dear Phil, I understand what you mean. On internet intonation and facial expression is missing. A situation different from classroom situation. Kh Sujin always stresses: think more of the other person's welfare, not of yourself, but you know all these things. Nina. Op 8-jul-2012, om 2:01 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > On the other hand, I have always behaved badly here, starting with > my entertaining fight with James in 2004 and over the years leading > up to my current irritation with certain people. I don't intend to > or want to, it just happens. That won't change, could have > something to do with the internet, I wouldn't dislike those people > face to face. #125444 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. moellerdieter Dear Sarah and others interested, you wrote : Thanks for the good quotes on pa~n~naa. Unfortunately, when quoting from the dictionaries one needs to re-write the Pali words with diacriticals as otherwise they all come out like this, making it hard to read. A good way would be to retype panna or pa~n~naa and copy and paste wherever it shows. Pt may have other suggestions. D: yes, thanks to Pt's good advise it may work now .. (testing.. ) PTS Pa~n~na Pa~n~na ( -- ˚) (adj.) [the adj. form of pa~n~naa] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition, in foll. cpds.: anissara.na˚ D i.245; S ii.194; iv.332; anoma˚ Sn 343; appa˚ S i.198; J ii.166; iii.223, 263; avakujja˚ A i.130; gambhiira˚ S i.190; javana˚ S i.63; Nd2 235; tikkha˚; dup˚ D iii.252, 282; S i.78, 191; ii.159 sq.; M iii.25; A ii.187 sq.; Dh 111, 140; Pug 13; DhA ii.255; nibbedhika˚ S i.63; A ii.178; Nd2 235; pu.thu˚ ibid.; bhaavita˚ S iv.111; A v.42 sq.; bhuuri˚ S iii.143; iv.205; manda˚ VbhA 239; mahaa˚ S i.63, 121; ii.155; A i.23, 25; ii.178 sq.; Nd2 235; SnA 347; sap˚ S i.13, 22, 212; iv.210; A iv.245; Pv i 88; 115; PvA 60 (=pa.n.dita), 131 (+buddhimant); suvimutta˚ A v.29 sq.; haasa˚ S i.63, 191; v.376; Nd2 235. By itself (i. e. not in cpd.) only at Dh 208 (=lokiyalokuttara -- pa~n~naaya sampanna DhA iii.172) and 375 (=pa.n.dita DhA iv.111). Buddh. Dict. pa~n~naa .aunderstanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight.a, comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanaa, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbaana (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattaa) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhana. D: why ' however'? ..it is 'wisdom endowed with knowledge or insight (PTS) . I think as a matter of speech , we use ' panna ' replacing avijja , don't we ? S: For the others above, some of Mrs RD's comments might be an example of someone writing one thing (translating and presenting Abhidhamma, for example) whilst holding other beliefs such as "dry bones", "soul" and so on. D: I guess there is hardly any translator of Abhidhamma text without an association like 'dry bones' ..well, she uttered it ;-) S:Here she is writing about pa~n~naa, but her final conclusion is: > Mrs. Rhys David's comment on this important term is interesting. She writes:- "And in Gotama's reply, all those terms are described in terms of intellectual process. Nevertheless, it is clear that the term did not stand for bare mental process of a certain degree of complexity, but that it also implied mental process as cultivated in accordance with a certain system of concepts objectively valid for all Buddhist adepts. Hence I think it best to reject such terms as reason, intellect, and understanding, and to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individual". When the Dhamma is described thus and panna is seen as "applied by the intellect of a given individual"....."wisdom or science, or knowledge, or philosophy".... no wonder it seems like dry bones! D: your objection is not yet clear to me .. By :'.. to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individuaI' , she implies pariyatti and patipatti , doesn't she? It is not that I think she said it very well , but... with Metta Dieter #125445 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Hi Pt, you wrote: (D: I think the framework of satipatthana is meant (i.e. being mindful of body, feeling,mind and mind-objects ) i.e. in relation to recognizing what is going on here-and-now.) pt: My thinking is that it would have to be a bit more fundamental than that. I.e. sati arises not just in moments of satipatthana, but also with all other kusala cittas that are not satipatthana, and most of them aren't. D: I haven't studied Satipatthana Vibhanga , so you may have something more detailed in mind . Generally speaking the fundament of (samma) sati is laid down by the Maha Satipatthana (assuming we may agree on this) . > D: it describes Right Effort (the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things )... > D: I understand advantageous states in such way that right effort provides a base for sati (and jhana) pt: Again, I'd think it would be a bit more fundamental than that. I mean, effort can be a power, sure, but so can mindfulness. And then, as mentioned before, there are all the other kusala cittas that are not "right". D: not really power , right effort means to pay attention for the wholesome mind-state , which provides the ground for right mindfulness (and right concentration) . Possibly the distinction between Manasasikara and Sati .. (?) It is important to keep the basics of the Noble Path training in mind when applying the Abhidhamma perspective. (D:> P.S: > I tried to use the Pali Digital reader , but Fire Fox crashes for -so far - unknown reasons . Do you have any idea what to do except retyping?) pt: Perhaps using a transliterator/converter is the quickest: http://www.granthamandira.com/diCrunch/diCrunch.php D: thanks , Pt. After I got what means unicode and veltuis , this converter seems to work very well. with Metta Dieter #125446 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 10:13 pm Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Hi again Rob E By the way, I really think you don't have to worry about being harassed by my from now on, I know and you know how often I have talked about leaving DSG for a good little while, but I really do feel the time has come, as I have said I have another religion I am interested in now. I like that old chestnut about "if you love someone set them free, if the love is true, they will return" or whatever it is. I am pretty confident that my connection to Dhamma will survive, but for now I am going in a different direction (with quite a few parallels to Dhamma) for awhile, to something I was interested in before Dhamma, it feels fresh now. And so Dhamma will feel fresh again someday. So not to worry, you are really into Dhamma, discussing a lot, feel at ease, I will not be lurking, ready to pounce. This one visit was in response to having seen that Dustrags series, that's all. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again Rob E > > One reality I note is that I $don't$ enjoy disliking you at this moment, perhaps an apology is coming! Let's see.... ummmmmm.....ahhhhhh...nnnnnnngggg....no. But I don't dislike you at this moment. Sweet ephemeral blissful moment! And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! > > But I will be gone. I am more interested in yoga and mysticism than Dhamma these days, I think it will be temporary, back to Dhamma focus someday, I predict (but cannot control, anatta.) > > > Phil > #125447 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 5:06 am Subject: uploaded discussions sarahprocter... Dear Friends, It's with pleasure that we're writing to say we've uploaded some more part-edited audio discussions: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Editing in Progress section below the edited discussions with Ajahn Sujin: Bangkok, March 2011 5 March: (1), (2). 12 March: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5). ***** Metta Sarah ====== #125448 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 5:49 am Subject: Ajahn Sujin's trip to Poland. sarahprocter... Dear Friends, As discussed before, Lukas is organising a Dhamma discussion trip in Poland with Ajahn Sujin and friends from overseas and Poland. For overseas visitors, the following is his rough itinerary. The costs are very reasonable in Poland and he can arrange free or even cheaper accommodation for those on a tight budget. Jon and I will be going, also Alberto from Italy, hopefully Ann from Canada. It would be lovely if anyone else from DSG can join. I do hope those in Europe, like Vince and Dieter, will seriously consider it. It's not necessary to stay the full 7 days - you'd be welcome just to join for a couple of days. If anyone is considering it or would like more info, pls let Lukas or I know. Metta Sarah ***** From Lukas: Day 0, Taking Acharn from Warsaw Airport. Collecting all coming friends, if they come this day. Taking a Van or mini bus for around 15 people, and traveling to Olsztyn (Around 3 h). Coming to the Kur Hotel. This is very nice, with high standard hotel, in a quiet and calm area set aside 3 km from the town center Of Olsztyn. Hotel has it's own access to a beach(lake, this region of poland is famous from forests and lakes). If possible some informal discussion with Acharn and coming friends at the hotel langue. Having a diner/ breakfest in a hotel. Day 1 Breakfast for Acharn. Morning Dhamma discussions. Sightseeing Olsztyn. An Old town or taking some walk to a nearby forest. Afternoon discussions. Day 2 Morning, evening discussions in a town. Some good restaurants that are here, with proper space. There is a possibility to went for a day and night(or even more if needed) to some turistic facilities, like farm, in a forest. They provide usaully accomodation, at least 3 dinners all based on local farm products, like a goat cheese etc and have a rest time there. Very quiet there with a lot of nature around. Day 3 Still staying there for a half of day and coming back to Olsztyn afternoon. A dinner in restaurant with all our friends. Dhamma discussions. Day 4 (Weekend) Eating a breakfast. Going to Biskupiec, a small very beautiful town in Mazury, Going to local hotel Atelier. Eating a dinner. A big restaurant room there good for dhamma discusions. A short walk, through nature. An official meeting with Polsih friends that come in a big conferency room. Coming back to hotel. Day 5 (Weekend) Breakfest with some polish friends that stayed for a night. Here the whole afternoon con be spend for sightseeing, nearby forests and attractions. Afternoon talk Day 6 Coming back to Olsztyn. Next to Dhamma discussions, some rest. Day 7 A day to plan. Setting of to Warsaw? This is very short plan and all depends on Acharn. In a few days I will give all more details, including places with photos and more descriptions. there is quite a lot to see and a lot places for dhamma discussions. Some kind of attractions like swiming pools, sauna, spa and much more. Each day I was thinking of two morning and evening Dhamma discussions. Me myself wants to benefit as much as I can from Acharn staying here, so I think I may bother Acharn in a car of some Dhamma issues :P The Kur Hotel in Olsztyn, the one I picked for Acharn and also coming Dhamma friends(if interested) cost around 70 USD and this includes all facilities, with berakfeasr, dinner and supper. This is hotel in a very nice and calm area with access to lake and forest. For others, if needed cheaper accomodation, I can look and arrange reservations for different Olsztyn hotel, with lower standard but for around 10 USD. This is just a very short plan, and nothing it's fixed, it's all flexible to Acharn. I will think more on a places for Dhamma talks, there is a planty of them. I will expand this schedule more and send it one more time. This is a plan for only 7 days (4th - 11th Sept), but maybe Acharn want to stay longer? > Best wishes Lukas #125449 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 2:46 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > The mind is a slippery instrument! :-) I've tried to hold mine still, but it doesn't seem to take! > > ========== > > J: I've noticed the same thing; it seems to have a mind of its own! :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125450 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Unicode converter. ptaus1 Hi Nina, > I copied all, not sure if I can work with it. And then, when sent on Email, will it keep Unicode? Alex seems to be very succesful with this. I'm not sure, I think it depends on what you are doing. If you are using the transliterator I linked to convert texts in Unicode with diacritics into text in Unicode Velthuis, then it should work. But if you are using it for text in pCharter, then I think it won't work. I think this is because pCharter is an old ASCII font, which doesn't seem to conform even with current Western ISO encoding, much less with Unicode, when it comes to diacritics. So, as I understand it, you'd first need to convert from pCharter into Unicode, and then use the converter I linked to convert from Unicode with diacritics into Unicode Velthuis. I haven't yet found a converter that would do both of these things in a simple way. Perhaps Alex knows of one. Best wishes pt #125451 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Unicode converter. nilovg Dear pt, Thank you. I am not thinking of pCharter, Alan has not trouble with this. I am only thinking of quotes in Pali texts and putting them on Email. I shall try. Nina. Op 9-jul-2012, om 11:04 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > If you are using the transliterator I linked to convert texts in > Unicode with diacritics into text in Unicode Velthuis, then it > should work. But if you are using it for text in pCharter, then I > think it won't work #125452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 7:16 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 9 nilovg Dear friends, Upekkh, equanimity, is another one of the perfections the Buddha had fulfilled. Upekkh is in this case not indifferent feeling but the wholesome cetasika tatramajjhattat, which literally means: keeping in the middle of things, evenmindedness. We read in the Visuddhimagga ( XIV, 153) that its function is to prevent deficiency and excess or to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. We read in the Visuddhimagga (IX, 124) that Bodhisattas through upekkh expect no reward. The Bodhisatta cultivated impartiality towards all beings since he had made the resolve to become a Buddha for the sake of all beings. He did not expect any reward in return. We read in the Cla-Dhammapla Jtaka" (no 358) that when the Bodhisatta was born as Prince Dhammapla, his father the King Mahpatpa became enraged when the Queen was playing with him and did not rise when he entered the room. Out of jealousy he ordered the executioner that his hands and feet were lopped off like bamboo shoots. After that the King ordered that his head be cut off as well. The infant Prince Dhammapla had no trace of hate, but he had firmly resolved thus: Now is the time to restrain your mind; now, good Dhammapla, be impartial towards these four persons, that is to say, towards your father who is having your head cut off, the man who is beheading you, your lamenting mother, and yourself. We read in the Greater Discourse on the Lions Roar (Middle Length Sayings, I, no. 12) that the Buddha related to Sriputta his ascetical practices to which he had applied himself before his enlightenment: Then I, Sariputta, lay down to sleep in a cemetery, leaning on a skeleton. Cowherds boys, having come up to me, spat and staled on me, and showered me with dust and stuck twigs into my ears. But I, Sriputta, well know that I was not the creator of a malign heart against them. This then came to be for me, Sriputta, through abiding in even-mindedness. _______ Nina. #125453 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:18 am Subject: Re: Unicode converter. truth_aerator Hello Pt, Nina, When using pali fonts I send messages using email. When I don't use them, I send messages using the website. Also, it might be helpful to download and install various pali fonts such as found at: http://www.tipitaka.org/vriroman-fonts http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp_pali.htm With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > > I copied all, not sure if I can work with it. And then, when sent on > Email, will it keep Unicode? Alex seems to be very succesful with this. > > > I'm not sure, I think it depends on what you are doing. If you are using the transliterator I linked to convert texts in Unicode with diacritics into text in Unicode Velthuis, then it should work. But if you are using it for text in pCharter, then I think it won't work. I think this is because pCharter is an old ASCII font, which doesn't seem to conform even with current Western ISO encoding, much less with Unicode, when it comes to diacritics. So, as I understand it, you'd first need to convert from pCharter into Unicode, and then use the converter I linked to convert from Unicode with diacritics into Unicode Velthuis. I haven't yet found a converter that would do both of these things in a simple way. Perhaps Alex knows of one. > > Best wishes > pt > #125454 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Unicode converter. nilovg Dear Alex, thank you for the trouble. The downloads are above me, besides I do not have Windows but Mac OSX. Best for me to use Velthuys. Nina. Op 9-jul-2012, om 16:18 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > When using pali fonts I send messages using email. When I don't use > them, I send messages using the website. > > Also, it might be helpful to download and install various pali > fonts such as found at: #125455 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:26 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Dear Sarah Thanks, I visited the mahavihara today in Anuradhapura. Very inspiring to be in the same area where Buddhaghosa composed the Visuddhimagga. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > >R: The idea of these processes occuring in the " brain" seems so caught up in cultural ideas and self to me. > > > ... > > > S: I don't remember anyone saying this. I think Ken H has repeatedly stressed it is exactly what he isn't saying. I think he's said many times that if there's an idea of dhammas situated in conventional ideas of things - whether they be brains, pumps, blood or anything else, it's missing the point, but I'll leave you both to pursue that one! > > > > > > I think there is a communication issue between the two of you. > ... > S: [Pls note that this does not mean I think you are saying the same thing!!] > .... > >R: Please again explain why the visuddhimagga said it was in the blood in the conventiona heart, was buddhaghose missing the point? Or am I the only one in all of buddhaland that doesn't get it? > ... > S: No of course Buddhaghosa wasn't "missing the point". No one has suggested this for a moment. Buddhaghosa and the great disciples whose commentaries he compiled had no doubt about the realities they were discussing here or elsewhere. However, for us it's different. Do our studies help us to understand the realities appearing now or is there the idea of 'some thing' or 'some place'? For example, in one of your recent posts you wrote: > > ">R: That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the > body inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or anywher suitable." > > Now you will say that your reference to blood, blood substitute , heart and pump are to various rupas. So you seem to be saying we have rupa conditioned by kamma arising inside rupas conditioned by kamma or in the case of the pump, rupa conditioned by kamma arising inside rupas conditioned by temperature. Is that correct? > > There are simply conditioned namas and rupas arising and falling away. Of course, rupas arise at a particular location, but as soon as we have the idea of "arm", "eye", "heart", "blood', "pump" and so on as having any existence at all, we are forgetting that the teachings are for the understanding of anatta, not atta. > ... > > Why don't you ask kenh and clarify. He says it is. I wonder why he said that " looking back the commentries might say we got that one ( about the heart base ) wrong" or words to that effect? > .. > S: I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #125456 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:44 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Dear Sarah (and RobK), you wrote: :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. Any canonical source to support the opposite? with Metta Dieter #125457 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: ('Someone of our group remarked that he did not understand why the Thais > paid such deep respect ..."> D: It has a lot to do as well with knowing (and overcoming ) one's conceit > (mana) .. ... S: I think it's good to highlight the mana. As we know, many people could not pay respect to the Buddha himself even. Mana and wrong view too, not understanding or appreciating the Teachings. D: right , those who are/were ignorant of the very deepness and wisdom of the teaching. Either it is not knowing ( with a chance to learn respect of the Buddha Dhamma) or not wanting to know ( the materialists and/or those having arranged themselves with the world and it's suffering.) S: Of course, having said this, respect is in the citta. D: accompanied by which cetasika? I thought about absence of mana , however mana involves not only the conceit to be superior , but as well to be inferior . Probably it is the level of panna which determines kusala or akusala (?) S:We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. D: rites and rituals are part of our social life . I think what makes the difference is whether it comes from the heart which I.M.H.O. has much to do with Brahma Vihara.. S:Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. D: and even more if this understanding of reality , i.e. knowledge and clearseeing according to actuality , serves as condition for disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. with Metta Dieter #125458 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:40 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Dear Dieter, RobK, all, I just did a search on hadayavatthu. In Tipitaka it seems to occur only once, in Milindapanha, which happened long after the Buddha. Is there any other relevant pali word I can search for? With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Sarah (and RobK), > > you wrote: > > :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. > Any canonical source to support the opposite? > > with Metta Dieter > > > > > #125459 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Hi Alex(and Nina), thanks , I think it has been mentioned that hadayavatthu 'entered' Theravada Buddhism due to tradition.. but I would like to read that in Milindabanha .. do you have the link? Another word or compound is 'chandaraagavinayakkhaayii' ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"] which as far as I know only occurs in . http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha\ -Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html it refers to Ven.Sariputta instructing monks what the Buddha taught (Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire." or 'Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of desire and lust' Seperating the compound : Chandaraaga occurs as well e.g. in A.N.IX,23 (Nyanatiloka translates greed of the will ,in a footnote mentions 'C.: weak greed ' Vinayakkhaayii : I could not find a source . Although it is clear that the Buddha taught the abolishment or removal of desire, I am still wondering how vinaya can be used as a synonym for removal, or subduing.. Perhaps you may find a clue ..(? ) with Metta Dieter #125460 From: Alex Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Dear Dieter, all, chandarāgavinayakkhāyī is found 12 times in one sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.002.than.html I don't see how it relates to talk about heart base. When it comes to Questions of King Melinda (Milindapañha), do you have pdf file of it? There you can search for "heart" or whatever else interests you. I like when some files are in pdf format because it can allow me to search for key words that interest me. What I find interesting is that I've heard the news where some person had a heart transplant and suddenly started to get some new and strange memories from that other person.... Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow-press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be implanted in a new person... With best wishes, Alex qtl { position: absolute; border: 1px solid #cccccc; -moz-border-radius: 5px; opacity: 0.2; line-height: 100%; z-index: 999; direction: ltr; } qtl:hover,qtl.open { opacity: 1; } qtl,qtlbar { height: 22px; } qtlbar { display: block; width: 100%; background-color: #cccccc; cursor: move; } qtlbar img { border: 0; padding: 3px; height: 16px; width: 16px; cursor: pointer; } qtlbar img:hover { background-color: #aaaaff; } qtl>iframe { border: 0; height: 0; width: 0; } qtl.open { height: auto; } qtl.open>iframe { height: 200px; width: 300px; } #125461 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Dear Alex, you wrote: chandarāgavinayakkhāyī is found 12 times in one sutta. D: yes, I know .. the question is whether it is the only sutta where it occurs A: I don't see how it relates to talk about heart base. D: well , I thought your offer was more broad: 'Is there any other relevant pali word I can search for?' :-) never mind.. A: When it comes to Questions of King Melinda (Milindapañha), do you have pdf file of it? There you can search for "heart" or whatever else interests you. I like when some files are in pdf format because it can allow me to search for key words that interest me D: R.D. translation is available to me http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/index.htm in which book/chapter did you find the heart base? A: What I find interesting is that I've heard the news where some person had a heart transplant and suddenly started to get some new and strange memories from that other person.... Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow-press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be implanted in a new person. D: yes, interesting (see my message dated June 12 ,Dr. Paul Pearsall 'The Heart's code), I am not sure what to make out of it with Metta Dieter #125462 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Dear Dieter, all, From what I've seen, I couldn't find anything interestening regarding heart-basis even in Milindapanha. Maybe that word didn't have the technical meaning that later commentaries gave it. If I remember correctly, somewhere I've read that heart basis was added later on. Personally, I prefer Buddha Dhamma to be more psychological and keep away from ontological statements as much as possible. With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > you wrote: > > chandarāgavinayakkhāyī is found 12 times in one sutta. > > D: yes, I know .. the question is whether it is the only sutta where it occurs > > A: I don't see how it relates to talk about heart base. > > D: well , I thought your offer was more broad: 'Is there any other relevant pali word I can search for?' :-) > never mind.. > > > A: When it comes to Questions of King Melinda (Milindapañha), do you have pdf file of it? There you can search for "heart" or whatever else interests you. I like when some files are in pdf format because it can allow me to search for key words that interest me > > D: R.D. translation is available to me http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/index.htm > in which book/chapter did you find the heart base? > > A: What I find interesting is that I've heard the news where some person had a heart transplant and suddenly started to get some new and strange memories from that other person.... Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow-press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be implanted in a new person. > > D: yes, interesting (see my message dated June 12 ,Dr. Paul Pearsall 'The Heart's code), I am not sure what to make out of it > > with Metta Dieter > > > > #125463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. nilovg Dear Rob K, Wonderful. I am just revising my pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, rereading all about the places. < In Anurdhapura we stayed in the Government Agents residence, a peaceful place with trees all around it, in the old city of Anurdhapura. His house is within walking distance of the Ruvanvelisya, the great stupa (dagaba) which King Dutthagman started to build. Relics of the Buddha have been enshrined in this stupa. It is illuminated every night and there are always people walking around it and reciting stanzas. We visited the stupa several times and on one occasion, while we were walking around it, Acharn Sujin spoke to our hostess about satipahna. She reminded us to be mindful of only one reality at a time, as it appears through one of the six doors. We should not mix up the six doorways. We cannot know visible object and tangible object, a reality appearing through the bodysense, at the same time. She said: When a reality appears, it does so only through one doorway. Leave the other doorways alone. Dont we try to think of many things instead of being aware now? The Bodhi-tree in Anurdhapura which is near to the Ruvanvelisya is another place of worship we visited. The sacred tree stands on a high terrace and it is surrounded by a golden rail. Generally one does not have access to the tree, but one of the monks who was in attendance allowed us to go up to the terrace, in order to pay respect. One night the same monk arranged for about a hundred white lotus flowers which we placed all around the tree. The monks who were leading the procession around the tree chanted stanzas, and we had an opportunity to look at the new sprout of the tree that had grown recently, several months ago. It seems that we are far away from the Buddhas time, but so long as satipahna is taught and pratised we are not far away. The old city of Anurdhapura and its surroundings are full of stupas, old monuments and places of commemoration. One of our hosts took us in a jeep to Tantirimale, which is not far from Anurdhapura. Sagamitta and her retinue who brought the sapling of the Bodhi-tree from India, stopped in Tantirimale for a rest, on the way to Anurdhapura. A shoot of the Bodhi-tree was planted in this spot. Today one can still see this tree which grows on a rocky ground where nothing else will grow. In the olden times several saplings of the Bo- dhitree were planted in different places, and later on thirty-two saplings were distributed all over the island. Many relics of the Buddha have been brought from India to Sri Lanka. The relic of the Buddhas right collarbone has been enshrined in Thuprma, which is situated in Anurdhapura. > ------- Have a fruitful journey, Nina. Op 9-jul-2012, om 17:26 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Dear Sarah > Thanks, I visited the mahavihara today in Anuradhapura. Very > inspiring to be in the same area where Buddhaghosa composed the > Visuddhimagga. > Robert > > #125464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Dear Dieter and Alex, Op 9-jul-2012, om 20:12 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > Alex: Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow- > press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be > implanted in a new person. ----- N: Memories fall away with the citta, do not stay. We cannot explain such strange happenings, but there must be conditions. Does this help understanding of this moment now? Nina. #125465 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Dear Nina, Dieter, all, >N:Memories fall away with the citta, do not stay. >We cannot explain such strange happenings, but there must be >conditions. Does this help understanding of this moment now? >============================== How do you explain implanting of memories through physical means (ex: heart transplant)? VsM XIII,9 states that one can read person's mind by somehow seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity. "But how is this knowledge to be aroused? That is successfully done through the divine eye, which constitutes its preliminary work. Therefore the bhikkhu should extend light, and he should seek out (pariyesitabba) another's [manner of] consciousness by keeping under observation with the divine eye the colour of the blood present with the matter of the physical heart as its support.5 For when [a manner of] consciousness accompanied by joy is present, the blood is red like a banyan-fig fruit; when [a manner of] consciousness accompanied by grief is present, it is blackish like a rose-apple fruit; when [a manner of] consciousness accompanied by serenity is present, it is clear like sesamum oil. So he should seek out another's [manner of] consciousness by keeping under observation the colour of the blood in the physical heart thus 4This matter is originated by the joy faculty; this is originated by the grief faculty; this is originated by the equanimity faculty', and so consolidate his knowledge of penetration of hearts." - VsM XIII,9 With best wishes, Alex #125466 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. rjkjp1 Dear Nina. Very nice to read. We went to the Ruvanvelisaya, the Mahabodhi tree, the Jetavana and thuparama. Also while driving could see the stupa erected on the mountain where Venerable Mahinda first arrived and met the king. And the place where he ordained 500 men for the first time. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > Wonderful. I am just revising my pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, rereading > all about the places. > < In Anurdhapura we stayed in the Government Agent's residence, a > peaceful place with trees all around it, in the old city of > Anurdhapura. His house is within walking distance of the > "Ruvanvelisya", the great stupa (dagaba) which King Dutthagman > started to build. Relics of the Buddha have been enshrined in this > stupa. It is illuminated every night and there are always people > walking around it and reciting stanzas. We visited the stupa several > times and on one occasion, while we were walking around it, Acharn > Sujin spoke to our hostess about satipahna. She reminded us to > be mindful of only one reality at a time, as it appears through one > of the six doors. We should not mix up the six doorways. We cannot > know visible object and tangible object, a reality appearing through > the bodysense, at the same time. She said: "When a reality appears, > it does so only through one doorway. Leave the other doorways > alone." Don't we try to think of many "things" instead of being > aware now? > The Bodhi-tree in Anurdhapura which is near to the "Ruvanvelisya" > is another place of worship we visited. The sacred tree stands on a > high terrace and it is surrounded by a golden rail. Generally one > does not have access to the tree, but one of the monks who was in > attendance allowed us to go up to the terrace, in order to pay > respect. One night the same monk arranged for about a hundred white > lotus flowers which we placed all around the tree. The monks who were > leading the procession around the tree chanted stanzas, and we had an > opportunity to look at the new sprout of the tree that had grown > recently, several months ago. It seems that we are far away from the > Buddha's time, but so long as satipahna is taught and pratised we > are not far away. > The old city of Anurdhapura and its surroundings are full of stupas, > old monuments and places of commemoration. One of our hosts took us > in a jeep to Tantirimale, which is not far from Anurdhapura. > Sagamitta and her retinue who brought the sapling of the Bodhi-tree > from India, stopped in Tantirimale for a rest, on the way to > Anurdhapura. A shoot of the Bodhi-tree was planted in this spot. > Today one can still see this tree which grows on a rocky ground where > nothing else will grow. In the olden times several saplings of the Bo- > dhitree were planted in different places, and later on thirty-two > saplings were distributed all over the island. > Many relics of the Buddha have been brought from India to Sri Lanka. > The relic of the Buddha's right collarbone has been enshrined in > "Thuprma", which is situated in Anurdhapura. > > ------- > Have a fruitful journey, > Nina. > > > > Op 9-jul-2012, om 17:26 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > > > Dear Sarah > > Thanks, I visited the mahavihara today in Anuradhapura. Very > > inspiring to be in the same area where Buddhaghosa composed the > > Visuddhimagga. > > Robert > > > > > > > > > #125467 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:52 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon, and Ken H, Rob K & Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > KH: So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") > > > =============== > > RE: First, I'd like to take the opportunity to say that in a sense I agree with what Ken H. describes here ... To think the dog is a being that has eternal continuity and that has an internal identity is a mistake, but to think that nothing of what we see exists when we see "dog" is also a mistake. > =============== J: Will leave it to KenH to confirm whether this is what he had in mind ... > =============== > > J: Rob E, I'm just wondering if what you're referring to is the fact that each citta is related to one that preceded it and one that follows it by contiguity condition (among others). > > RE: Yes that is at the very least an important part of what I am referencing. > > > J: So are you perhaps saying that cittas that are so related can be regarded as being in a 'stream'. > > RE: Well of course they are creating the conditions for each next one, like dominoes, and thus have a very lawful and identifiable relationship from moment to moment. To say that this is not the case would be to ignore the obvious. > =============== J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a steam, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). It is not said that the preceding citta in any sense *causes* (nor "creates the conditions for") the arising of the succeeding one; there are other forces at play here, one of which is that there are certain fixed orders of cittas (Pali: niyama), for example, the order of cittas in a sense-door process. Jon #125468 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Rob K, Lovely to hear that you're in Anuradhapura and the area, Rob! Nina, I remember our trip as you describe below (1977) well! It was so wonderful staying in the lovely old house in the old city and just being able to wander over to the stupas many times, having lovely curries with our hosts and discussions together. I learnt so much from all the little reminders too, such as eating a little bit of everything out of courtesy for the hosts, forgetting about vegetarian preferences and so on. Respect and manners, fitting in, being easy to take care of. K.Sujin would always give extra attention, extra dhamma reminders to the hosts wherever we stayed. The best 'gift'. Our overseas group consisted of four lay- people only - you, K.Sujin, K.Douangduen and myself - all sharing a room in the house. I learnt about getting up early in the day. K.Duangduen would wake at about 5.00, turn on the light and start doing her laundry and other chores. I thought this was so strange at the time, but I've been an early riser more-or-less ever since! Now my young nieces think I'm the strange one when they visit me and find I've gone for an early walk and swim by 6.00, having done some chores already. The white lotus flowers we placed round the bo tree - so beautiful. Lots of attachment, I remember in between any wise reflections or respect for the Buddha and his teachings. We were all excited about the new sprout of the bo tree as there had been concern about its health. Again, many different cittas, including lots of lobha, wishing so much for the tree to be healthy and grow. Thx for sharing and Rob, glad to hear about the places you're visiting. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > Wonderful. I am just revising my pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, rereading > all about the places. > < In Anurdhapura we stayed in the Government Agent's residence, a > peaceful place with trees all around it, in the old city of > Anurdhapura. His house is within walking distance of the > "Ruvanvelisya", the great stupa (dagaba) which King Dutthagman > started to build. <.....> #125469 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:56 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:Are there any conditioned dhammas that exist other than names and >rupas? > >================================== > > The "whole" made up of parts ("nama&rupa") does exist as "whole" that is anicca, dukkha, anatta. ... S: So you suggest there is a) a 'whole' which is anicca, dukkha and anatta that is made up of b) namas and rupas. Qus: 1. Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a paramattha dhamma or a concept? 2. Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this 'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? Metta Sarah ==== #125470 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:28 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: >A: The mind is going to think of something or intend something, so it might be better to focus on Dhamma and kusala rather than akusala. ... S: Yes, "the mind is going to think of something or intend something." Why? Because there are conditions, tendencies, habits, to think a particular way, to intend one way. Like now, even as I write to you, my mind is thinking about the chirpy birds and the waves I can hear outside my window. I didn't plan or intend to think about them or to be distracted as I write, but there are simply conditions, accumulated inclinations, after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching to think in different ways about various ideas and stories. Yes, reflecting about the Dhamma in a kusala way would be more beneficial after hearing sounds than reflecting in an akusala way about birds flying home to roost and the surf conditions for tomorrow. However, all dhammas are anatta. No on, no one at all, can select or choose what cittas will arise next. Thinking that one should be able to or wishing to just have kusala cittas is not the way for understanding and other kinds of kusala to develop. Now, I just jumped up to have a look at a kayak (boat) trying to get into the shore in the waves and before it gets dark. Would it be better if I didn't jump up and down while posting or closed the curtains to try and suppress the attachment? There are no rules at all, when it comes to the development of satipatthana - the development is natural. Any dhamma at all, including present attachment, can be the object of awareness. I just replied to Nina about when I was young and joined her and K.Sujin in Sri Lanka. I remember the host of the house where we were staying in Anuraddhapura saying something to the effect that he was so surprised that someone so young and fun-loving could be interested in the Dhamma. K.Sujin explained to him that there could be awareness any other kind of cittas, any kind of realities and it didn't matter at all what the age, nationality, lifestyle, interests were. The understanding of dhammas appearing now is all that matters. ... > >S: More precious is to check whether there is any understanding, any >detachment towards the realities of life now. Do they appear or are >they hidden by the cloak of ignorance? > >======================================== > > And even better, develop more and more understanding and dispassion. > > What to check if one's wisdom and kusala is not growing? ... S: Again the present reality - is it thinking, despair, doubt, attachment, disappointment, seeing, hearing? What kind of reality tries to measure or is so concerned about progress? Remember the adze handle, Alex. It may seem that there's no progress, but asking the right questions, like this one, appreciating that there is more and more ignorance, more and more akusala is a growth in understanding. In the beginning, we think there's a lot of kusala and a lot of understanding. Then understanding develops a little and it becomes more and more obvious that a lot of what we took for kusala (such as in the example I just gave about laying the white lotus flowers around the tree in Anuraddhapura) is mostly akusala. ... > >S: When we're thinking and wondering about quicker progress and >"how long?", what kind of cittas are these? Is that effort and >understanding atta or anatta? > >========== > > > There is difference between tanha and wholesome motivation for the path. Without latter progress cannot be made, at least for a beginner. .... S: Now, we're discussing the Dhamma and reflecting on various dhammas. There are kusala cittas with kusala chanda at such moments when the reflections are wise ones. The motivation is there already. ... > > S: "Doing or not doing something right" ..... again this is an idea >of atta, not the understanding of dhammas with detachment. > >===================== > > It is a statement of reality. Something is going to be done, so it might as well be something kusala* rather than akusala. ... S: Like now, discussion about the Dhamma. Kusala and akusala according to conditions, not to choice. .... ... > *even if kusala means reading a Dhamma book or contemplating realities. ... S: Reading a dhamma book can be with kusala or akusala cittas. This is why the path comes down to the citta now, not the activity. ... > >S:Attachment, ignorance, ditthi ....all kinds of dhammas have to be >known now. When there is understanding, there is no concern about >when arahatship may occur. > >======================== > > > You keep saying about knowing if wisdom, and other qualities are present or not, but what about developing more kusala? ... S: If there is no knowing what kinds of dhammas arise now, including kusala and akusala dhammas, how can kusala ever develop? How can it ever be understood? Thx for the good questions. Let's discuss this further. Metta Sarah p.s. I've just got an idea. Next Thursday, Pt is going to come over to visit us (in Sydney). Why don't we Skype/call you for a short Dhamma chat? It would be sometime on Wed evening Edmonton time. Pls let us know if you're interested. =========== #125471 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 10-jul-2012, om 8:50 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Our overseas group consisted of four lay- people only - you, > K.Sujin, K.Douangduen and myself - all sharing a room in the house. > I learnt about getting up early in the day. K.Duangduen would wake > at about 5.00, turn on the light and start doing her laundry and > other chores. I thought this was so strange at the time, but I've > been an early riser more-or-less ever since! ------- N: Yes, the memory is so vivid, like it was yesterday. I just told Lodewijk about Kh Duangduen, so early, and her alarmclock. When going around the stupa there was thunder and rain. Kh Sujin could not care less that she got quite wet. The white lotuses, I guess this was a gift of Kh Sujin. Ven. Dhammadharo and other monks leading the procession, going around the Bo tree. Nina. #125472 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & all, ________________________________ > From: Robert E >If rupas arise at a particular location, then I think we must either be talking about a sort of matrix of rupas that create that relative location, or about a physical world in which locations exist. If rupas arise at a particular location relative to other arising rupas - in other words, an experiential pattern of arisings of some sort, could you say a further word about how that works? Otherwise it would seem that rupas have no location, if there is no physical world, no matrix, within which they arise. ... S: You raise many good points as usual. Actually, to be more precise, it's the cittas which arise at a particular location. In this realm, cittas all need a base - eye-base for seeing, ear-base for hearing or heart-base for most cittas. Let's talk about the touching of hardness now as we hit the computer key. The hardness rupa experienced, arises in a kalapa and falls away instantly. Clearly that hardness experienced at that instant is different from the hardness experienced when touching one's arm, even though they are both just hardness (pathavi) rupas. Does that mean we can say the hardness experienced when touching the keyboard or that experienced when touching one's arm actually arise inside other rupas? No. It just means that in both instances the experiencing of a particular hardness is a result of kamma, experienced through the body-sense. At either moment, there is the coming together, the meeting of body consciousness (and accompanying mental factors), a tangible object and body-sense. These are different dhammas which arise and fall away by their own conditions. At that instant, a particular body consciousness experiences a particular tangible object at a particular body-sense or base rupa. (Body-sense rupas arise and fall away all over what we take for our body). There will never again be the same body consciousness arising, the same tangible object experienced or the same body-sense rupa as support. It's the same when other cittas arise and experience their particular objects at heart-base. It is just the meeting of dhammas, the ayatanas. Understanding the ayatanas helps us to understand that apart from dhammas, there is nothing else at all. As soon as we have ideas about "experiential pattern', "matrix of rupas", "physical worlds" where rupas arise, we're lost again in the world of ideas. > >> S: I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. .... >R: If it is true that it is merely conventional language in order to talk about the paramatha dhammas in question, why designate a specific location in the body, and an association - a very sensible one - with a physical organ? It seems that this association must be purposeful and have a meaning other than merely using general conventional language. ... S: It's like when we talk about the body-sense location of the finger when touching the keyboard. It's just correct conventional language (sammuti or vohara sacca) to indicate that rupas are different, cittas arise at different locations, i.e at different rupa bases. Heart-base itself does not arise in the same place that eye-sense or 'finger' body-sense arises. They arise in different kalapas according to complex conditions. We could describe in ordinary language in detail the point of the finger where the body-consciousness taps the keyboard and experiences hardness. It would be for reference, correct sammuti sacca, to indicate that point of experiencing where that body-sense is. It wouldn't mean there was a literal finger - or set of rupas represented by the finger - inside which the other body-sense rupas arose. ... >If the heart-base is located within the physical heart, in the blood that pumps through the heart in that location, that is a very specific and sensible association which shows some correspondence between the physical reality that we know as the "heart" and the function of the paramatha dhamma known as the heart-base. I think it would be strange to take such a clear association given by someone so advanced who is explaining this association in order to elucidate the functioning of the dhamma, and not take it as important and correct information. ... S: What is important is to understand dhammas now. If the information we read helps us understand more about what appears now, it's useful. That's all. If it helps us to understand that what we take for 'person' are really just different namas and rupas arising and falling away according to conditions, it's useful and important. If it leads to more speculation, more ideas about fingers, computers, organs, transplants, blood and pus without any awareness of dhammas, it's not useful. Thanks for helping me to reflect on this topic. Metta Sarah ===== #125473 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:26 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 10 nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha wanted to help all beings and he taught without partiality to anybody who was ready to listen. He was not partial towards his son Raahula. Raahula asked him many questions about Dhamma and, thus, he taught Rhula as he would teach others who asked him questions. In the Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold (Sense-) Field (Middle Length Sayings III, no 137) we read that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the three arousings of mindfulness, practising which an ariyan disciple is fit to instruct a group: ...As to this, monks, a teacher teaches Dhamma to his disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion, saying: This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness. But his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacehrs instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathaagata is neither delighted nor does he experience delight, but dwells untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious.... We read that in the case that some disciples do not listen and others listen, the Tathaagata is neither delighted nor depressed. Having ousted both delight and depression, he dwells with equanimity, mindful and clearly conscious. In the case that his disciples listen, the Tathaagata is delighted and he experiences delight, but he dwells untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious. ******** Nina. #125474 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, >________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom > >N: Yes, the memory is so vivid, like it was yesterday. ... S: Amazing, what we remember! (Mostly useless, of course). I can have trouble remembering a name someone told me a minute ago or my own telephone number, but remember a funny mixture of odd details and a few dhamma comments and reminders from long ago. It just shows how anatta such thinking, such tendencies are - no one could plan for it or make it happen like this. .... >I just told >Lodewijk about Kh Duangduen, so early, and her alarmclock. >When going around the stupa there was thunder and rain. Kh Sujin >could not care less that she got quite wet. ... S: I remember this was a novel idea to me as well - walking around in the thunder and rain without an umbrella. When I commented to her, she said it was "warm rain". True. Different from the rain in Europe! "Life exists in a moment" she'd say. When giving health or other reasons why I ate some foods and not others, she'd say: "Khun Sarah, the citta now is more important. Consideration for our hosts is better". ... >The white lotuses, I guess this was a gift of Kh Sujin. Ven. >Dhammadharo and other monks leading the procession, going around the >Bo tree. .... S: Yes, it was a very special occasion. The monks and the lay-people all looked so serene, so calm, so respectful, I thought. However, as we were continually reminded, we can only ever know our own cittas. Who knows what kinds of thoughts anyone else is having at any moment and it's not of any importance. All that is of interest is the understanding of the realities appearing now - the seeing, the visible object, the thinking, attachment or other dhammas. And then I remember you telling me about how you prepared meals for Lodewijk for the entire time we were away - a few weeks. With each meal placed in the freezer there was a Dhamma reminder or quote. (Of course, I may have the details a little wrong). What does Lodewijk remember about opening those reminders with his meals? Did he use to worry about you on the trips? Of course, in those days we had no computers, smart phones or telephone access, so when we went on trips, we had no communication with family members. Metta Sarah p.s. I remember Alan uploaded the list of quotes I made from the trip. If I can find them, perhaps I'll repost them. I didn't finish posting the article on Attachment because I left Hong Kong and lost the file. Maybe I'll finish it when I'm back in H.K. ===== #125475 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:53 pm Subject: what I heard, six worlds. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin: Six worlds. No matter whether we are listening to the Dhamma, walking home, eating, through the eyes only visible object appears and this characteristic does not change. After that there is thinking and this is varied. Sound is experienced through the ears, and that characteristic does not change, but thinking after hearing is varied. We are not together with another person but with citta that experiences visible object and with citta that thinks, with citta that experiences sound and with citta that thinks, with citta that smells odour and with citta that thinks. We are alone in our own world. The world seems so large, but there is only one citta that experiences an object and then falls away. We think that we have to blame someone else, we have like and dislike, but we are alone. There is no person, only one citta that sees and one citta that thinks. We think of another person but there is only citta that thinks and then falls away. There is no end to thinking but all objects of thought fall away with the citta, even thinking falls away. ****** Nina. #125476 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Dear Alex, Op 9-jul-2012, om 21:18 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > How do you explain implanting of memories through physical means > (ex: heart transplant)? ------- N: No idea. I will not try to understand because I cannot understand everything in the world. The present moment is already very difficult to understand. ------- > > A:VsM XIII,9 states that one can read person's mind by somehow > seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity. ------ I remember. It shows that citta conditions ruupa. ---- Nina. #125477 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:32 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:1.Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a >paramattha dhamma or a concept? >============================= It is experiential truth. I don't want to drive into a tree at 100 km/h. If one is hungry, one opens the fridge and eats. Spoon has different function from a knife. If one is thirsty, one drinks water. Cup does exist. >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? >============================ Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. With best wishes, Alex #125478 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. With best wishes, Alex #125479 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:15 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, Thank you very much for your post. >S:...reflecting about the Dhamma in a kusala way would be more >beneficial after hearing sounds than reflecting in an akusala way >about birds flying home to roost and the surf conditions for >tomorrow. >================= You have had good examples with birds, who also btw, chirp outside and the hearing is not due to "me choosing to hear" but due to impersonal conditions. As for reflecting, and considering, do you think it is good to read over and over again some inspiring passages on anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta? I do agree regarding accumulation of conditions so that good states naturally arise. But even then, -> 1)what is the role of present intention? 2)Is thinking "Things are conditioned, no control, so whatever akusala happens, let akusala happen" is itself another condition for more akusala and thus, is wrong? 3) Should one try to be good in the present, even though this is fully conditioned, and whatever happens is due to conditions. I prefer to communicate through postings like here. With metta, Alex #125480 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Dear Nina and Alex,RobK , all, just between.. you wrote: (A.How do you explain implanting of memories through physical means > (ex: heart transplant)?) ------- N: No idea. I will not try to understand because I cannot understand everything in the world. The present moment is already very difficult to understand. ------- D: I agree , for us such understanding is not (yet) needed for our development .. but one should never exclude that a seemingly dispensable piece of information may show to have something in common with other parts of information/experience and so supporting a ' broader picture' > A:VsM XIII,9 states that one can read person's mind by somehow > seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity. ------ N:I remember. It shows that citta conditions ruupa. ---- D: reading the quotation , I assume Ven Buddhagosa intended an elaboration of the 6 Higher Powers (abhinna) and relied on comments orginated by monks with deep Jhana experience . To read a person's mind refers to ' penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ana) '. I can imagine that but it sounds a bit strange to learn, that has someting to do with seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity . Well that may be so .. we will know whenever we may enjoy such experience. with Metta Dieter . P.S.: a bit more about blood ..to whom it may concern ;-) -'The Hippocratic school held that four humors: blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm consists the basis for the four types of temperaments' - Chinese medicine 'Southern Blood Types ' -and last but not least Web translation from: http://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article3198053/Blutgruppen-Hysterie-er\ obert-Japan.html 3 years ago, excerpt: "Blood group hysteria conquered Japan A question currently dominated Japan at every opportunity: "To which group do you belong," it says at parties, in the interview, or flirting or department stores. The answer you should think twice because this is about nothing less than the personality. The Prime Minister is committed to A. By Mari Yamaguchi The curiosity is solely the blood type. Because it can be - as the belief of many Japanese - most intimate details to derive personality. Last year four of the ten best-selling books revealed to its readers, which reveals the blood type of a person about his character. Total sales of the series - each with a band for the groups A, B, AB and 0 - over five million copies. Taku Kabeya, managing director of publisher Bungeisha, leads to the success of the series due to the fact that the readers confirm their self-image when they recognize certain characteristics of themselves or others in reading. Accordingly, people with blood group A sensitive perfectionists but somewhat anxious. Type B tends to the cheerful nature, but at the same eccentric and egotistical. Flows the blood of group 0 through the veins of a man, this is curious, generous but stubborn. And AB-carriers are mysterious and unpredictable. #125481 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:19 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 3. glenjohnann Dear Nina and Sarah This is all very helpful - and the understanding described is essential. Thanks for posting it. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for sharing these transcripts > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Kh Santi: How can we exert effort for satipatthaana? > > > > Kh S: When there are no conditions for satipatthaana it does not > > arise. More understanding is the condition for it. If it does not > > arise there is not yet enough understanding. > > > > Kh Santi: If for someone satipatthana often arises he has a lot of > > effort or energy, and if it does not often arise, there is not much > > effort for that person. > > > > Kh S: Does satipatthana arise because it is accumulated as > > sankhaarakkhandha( the khandha of formations, including sati, > > pa~n~naa and all wholesome qualities) or does it arise because of a > > self? At this moment of listening there are sati and pa~n~naa, and > > are these sankhaarakkhandha? > .... > S: Even if someone has studied a lot of Abhidhamma and Pali, if there's still the idea of self making an effort or 'doing' something, it's not the understanding that the Buddha taught. > > I heard K. Sujin talking about how sacca ~naana (knowledge of the truth) is the understanding which is confident about the reality right now as the object of understanding only. Nothing else can be the object of understanding.....and only that reality which appears. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > #125482 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:25 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:1.Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a >paramattha dhamma or a concept? > >============================= > > It is experiential truth. .... S: So did the Buddha teach us that there are realities (paramattha dhamma) - "The All", concepts (pannatti) thought about and then "experiential truth"? What is the Pali for this third category? >Cup does exist. ... S: We agree there are 6 doorways, right? Which doorway is cup experienced? ... > > >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? > >============================ > > Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. ... S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" that are impermanent. You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? Just trying to follow you. Metta Sarah ===== #125483 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:37 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: So did the Buddha teach us that there are realities (paramattha >dhamma) - "The All", concepts (pannatti) thought about and then >"experiential truth"? What is the Pali for this third category? >=========================== As I remember, please correct me if I am wrong, Buddha has no where taught explicitly about "absolute" vs "conventional" truth. The first explicit teaching is in the commentaries, and different schools had different specific ideas what is absolute and what is conventional truth. Just because the Buddha has talked about people in one sutta and ayatanas in another, doesn't mean that any one is more "true" than the other. In fact, it seems that "conventional" truth is what we mostly, if always, "live in". Crosswalks, pedestrians, cars - do exist. Hunger, refridgerator, food, etc does exist. Fork has different function from a spoon. Etc. > >Cup does exist. > ... > S: We agree there are 6 doorways, right? Which doorway is cup >experienced? >================================== Through at least two. Seeing + touching + recognizing it being a cup. IMHO, we should not equate perception with what is. > ... > > > > >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? > > >============================ > > > > Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. > ... > S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" that are impermanent. > > You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? > > Just trying to follow you. > > Metta > > Sarah > > ===== Yes, cup is experiential truth. What I believe is wrong is to ascribe permanence, ultimate happiness and thing-in-itself (atta) to a cup. With best wishes, Alex #125484 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/10/2012 1:26:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" that are impermanent. You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? ============================= Sarah, in MN 41 the Buddha taught the following: "It's by reason of this Dhamma conduct & harmonious conduct that some beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the good destinations, in the heavenly world." What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? And if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? As for what door the complex called a body is known through, of course it is through the mind door and no other. And its impermanence is, of course, derived from the arising and ceasing of its elements. But still, the Buddha himself spoke of the body, and he spoke of it breaking up. Fictions and concepts don't break up, do they? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125485 From: "azita" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:28 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 3. gazita2002 Hallo Ann, Sarah, Nina, Agree with you here, Ann, Important info to be heard and contemplated often and thanks Sarah, for posting. How are you Ann? hope all is well. All good here. HOpe to be back in Thailand in Sept. Cant believe it - have been here in Oz for nearly one year! Daughters and grandkids are fine, weather's great. This must be dukkha :) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > Dear Nina and Sarah > > This is all very helpful - and the understanding described is essential. Thanks for posting it. > > Ann > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, > > > > Thanks for sharing these transcripts > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Kh Santi: How can we exert effort for satipatthaana? > > > > > > Kh S: When there are no conditions for satipatthaana it does not > > > arise. More understanding is the condition for it. If it does not > > > arise there is not yet enough understanding. > > > > > > Kh Santi: If for someone satipatthana often arises he has a lot of > > > effort or energy, and if it does not often arise, there is not much > > > effort for that person. > > > > > > Kh S: Does satipatthana arise because it is accumulated as > > > sankhaarakkhandha( the khandha of formations, including sati, > > > pa~n~naa and all wholesome qualities) or does it arise because of a > > > self? At this moment of listening there are sati and pa~n~naa, and > > > are these sankhaarakkhandha? > > .... > > S: Even if someone has studied a lot of Abhidhamma and Pali, if there's still the idea of self making an effort or 'doing' something, it's not the understanding that the Buddha taught. > > > > I heard K. Sujin talking about how sacca ~naana (knowledge of the truth) is the understanding which is confident about the reality right now as the object of understanding only. Nothing else can be the object of understanding.....and only that reality which appears. > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ==== > > > #125486 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: I think the issue you raise here is something of a red herring :-)). > > > > > > Whether or not there is a 'relation' between dhammas and conventional concepts/objects is beside the point. > > > > RE: Whether or not it is beside the point, it seems to be the point of contention between folks as serious about the Dhamma as Ken H. & Rob K. So maybe it is worth addressing so as to settle the disagreement? > > =============== > > J: Yes, well worth addressing. ... > - The Buddha pointed out the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas as being the development of the path; > - that development does not involve identifying a specific relationship between dhammas and concepts (i.e., identifying in exactly what way (if any) dhammas are related to concepts); > - the Buddha in his teaching did not assert a relationship between dhammas and concepts of the kind you are suggesting (i.e., that concepts point to dhammas). > > In brief, the path can be developed to the full without dwelling on this point. I don't think it's clear that this is the case. The Buddha spoke about many conventional actions and objects and included them as part of the path in his speech. He did not make the statement that he only spoke of such things for convenience and that only understanding dhammas constituted the path. It is a point of interpretation to assert this, not a point of fact. When the Buddha says that one should not drink alcohol because it clouds the mind, some would say that this is just a signpost for mental factors; others would say that it is a literal prohibition; and others would say that both the mental state and the action are important [that is what I would say.] It is not settled which of these three views most accurately reflect the Buddha's teaching, but it is clear that the third alternative is the one the Buddha followed in his way of addressing such issues. Since such a view does not contradict commentary, and does make most sense of the Buddha's own words, it is the alternative that I choose to adopt. > > =============== > > RE: In any case, I don't think it's beside the point at all, unless it is already settled that nothing we do in life means anything. Only direct understanding matters, and I don't think the Buddha ever said anything to suggest that pure understanding, removed from all life circumstances, was the only thing that mattered. > > =============== > > J: I agree that it is only direct understanding that matters. The way that is written was mistaken on my part. While I think that direct understanding is the ultimate fruit of the path, and while I think that enlightenment is a matter of the transformation of consciousness, I don't agree that the path is only constituted of understanding, but of all the factors that the Buddha spoke of. > All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). What I have in mind is considering intellectual understandings removed from conventional issues that occur in everyday life, such as one's work, behavior, relationships, and other life circumstances. > > =============== > > RE: So it comes down to what is really an essential Dhamma argument, not beside the point at all, whether there is indeed an eightfold path, which includes other factors other than right understanding, or a one-fold path, which includes only right understanding, and in which all the other 7 factors are nothing but subsidiary aspects of right understanding. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, the path is eightfold in the sense that each moment of path-consciousness is accompanied by eight important mental factors, each performing its own function. This interpretation, while perhaps valid for the mental factors that arise in path-consciousness, is not consistent as a total definition of the path with all the things the Buddha spoke about, and pronounced to be of importance to development. > > =============== > > RE: Buddha never suggested that, but I think that is what it comes down to when one thinks that "understanding dhammas" stands alone without any other necessary supports, such as actual right action or right livelihood. If one thinks that right action - even with the word action in it - comes down to nothing but an arising dhamma that has no actual action in it, and that is true for all the factors, then there really is only right understanding, only mental factors, and then the Buddha's explicit exposition of the Dhamma is reduced to something quite one-dimensional compared to the diverse and balanced teaching that the Buddha enunciated during the course of his 40 years of teaching. > > =============== > > J: Well that is the point of contention (as you say above :-)), namely whether the factors of the NEP are co-arising mental factors that accompany each moment of path consciousness, or whether they are a collection of things (including mental factors and things to do) having no apparent common denominator. The common denominator is the development of kusala and kusala qualities, such as calm, concentration, understanding, equanimity, kindness, clear-headedness, etc. In conventional life one cannot be clear-headed and mindful while drunk. Drunkenness is a physical factor that affects mental factors. Meditation may be seen as a "worldly" activity that affects mental factors. It is this sort of combination of factors both purely mental and conventional that is more multi-dimensional than only thinking about arising mental factors as though there are no other correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding. > (It may well be that the former seems 'one-dimensional' and the latter a 'diverse and balanced teaching' to you, but that is a purely subjective assessment :-)). Well I'm making the argument based on what is contained in it. To say it is "a subjective assessment" neither dismisses nor asserts the possible verity of such an argument. The question is whether the suttas and the preponderance of commentarial interpretations suggests that such an argument is right or wrong. I still have never seen a statement quoted from commentary that suggested that we should ignore conventional reality in favor of pure mental factors. In fact, the Visudhimagga and other major commentaries seem to do just the opposite, so the view that such references are not meant to actually refer to conventional realities and their relationship to dhammas is itself an interpretation not directly supported by the writings themselves. I think the and/and argument makes much more sense of the teachings in sutta and commentary that I have seen [admittedly very incomplete] than the either/or approach to dhammas vs. conventional realities. When Rob K. asserts that there is a relationship between kusala and abstention from 'conventional murder' that makes more sense to me than Scott's view that murder is seen to not exist when one is enlightened and therefore doesn't carry any kamma, since there are no beings. To me the latter seems an extreme interpretation of dhamma theory, while the former seems balanced and takes into account both everyday reality and absolute reality at one stroke. > The only way to resolve this issue is to look at the teachings as a whole, and to do so (I'd suggest) in the context of the commentarial texts. I will be happy to see and discuss your quotes that you would put forth as clarifying the non-importance of conventional forms such as conventional livelihood, drinking, sexual activity, relationship to the body, killing and food, conventional right speech and action and meditation as a means of developing concentration and mindfulness. I have yet to see a single commentarial statement, let alone the "teachings as a whole" declare that we should not be concerned with such conventional behaviors and activities and only be concerned with pure understanding of dhammas. If such a view is justified by the teachings, the teachings have to say this somewhere. I will have to take a break for now, but will be back... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #125487 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: rebirth anagami nilovg Dear Sarah, I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? Nina. #125488 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 11. nilovg Dear friends, The monk who has left his home for the homeless life has many opportunities to cultivate impartiality. Laypeople who are bound by their family life are apt to have preference for their own relatives. The monk is not bound by such ties and he has the opportunity to devote himself entirely to the task of helping without any partiality all people who are ready to listen to the Dhamma. The monk should not expect any reward for his teaching of Dhamma. Since he is not allowed to ask for anything he truly leads a life of contentment with little. Also laypeople who practise the Middle Way, which is the eightfold Path, can cultivate tatramajjhattat, evenmindedness. Partiality is unwholesome. Having preference for certain people or expecting a reward from anyone are forms of attachment. Impartiality is wholesome. Tatramajjhattat arises with each wholesome citta. We can find out for ourselves that the cultivation of the eightfold Path makes us less apt to partiality. When we learn to see ourselves and others as only nma and rpa we shall have less preference for such or such person. We shall learn not to expect praise, honour or other kinds of rewards from others. We should remember that the Buddha was unruffled by praise or blame. He was even-minded, untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious. The Buddha fulfilled the perfections of dna (generosity), sla (morality), nekkhamma (renunciation), pa (wisdom), viriya (energy), khanti (patience), sacca (truthfulness), adihna (determination), mett (loving kindness) and upekkh (equanimity. Thus, he could become the Sammsambuddha: He is the Exalted One, arahant, fully enlightened, perfected in knowledge and way of life, one well-gone, a knower of the worlds, none higher, a tamer of tamable men, a teacher, the awake among devas and men, the Exalted One! (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Ch I, 10, Mahnma.) *********** Nina. #125489 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 10-jul-2012, om 18:21 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I can imagine that but it sounds a bit strange to learn, that has > someting to do with seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity . ------ N: In the context of Ayurveda, prevalent in India, it is not so strange. When one is sick it means that there is disturbance of the elements. The state of the bile is also important. We have read texts about this. I have no problems with such texts. Here is an old message, a quote from Atth and a message by Sarah: N: (quote from Atthasalini).....Although the world perceives the eye as white, > > as (of a certain) bigness, extension, width, they do not know the > > real sentient eye, but only the physical basis thereof. That lump of > > flesh situated in the cavity of the eye is bound to the brain by > > sinewy threads. Therein are white, black, red, extension, cohesion, > > heat and mobility. The eye is white from the abundance of phlegm, > > black from that of bile, red from that of blood, rigid from the > > element of extension, fluid from that of cohesion, hot from that of > > heat, and oscillating from that of mobility. Such is the compound > > organ of the eye.... ... Questioner: > This latter description is ancient biology. By today's standards > it is > primitive and flawed - it is quite primitive especially as regards such > > things as the phlegm & bile. .... S: This is rather a minor problem and you may well be right in what you say here. I'd just like to point out that even when assuming the conventional descriptions are 'primitive and flawed', such as with reference to the phlegm and bile, we have to consider that we may not understand what is intended and that the translation may not be adequate for this either: For example, many of these ideas related to ayurvedic medicine. I read somehwere that the first eye surgeries were carried out around the time of the Buddha by ayurvedic opthamologists using well-founded principles for cataract removal and so on. Just a couple of notes to consider here: ttp://www.itmonline.org/ayurreview/ayur5.htm "Pitta, kapha, and vata (vayu) have been translated as bile, phlegm, and wind, respectively, based on translations that arose out of the ancient Greek system. These terms are poor representatives of the underlying meaning, however." "The doshas-vayu, pitta, and kapha-constitute the tripod on which Ayurveda stands. To understand their theory perfectly and correctly is by itself a long and arduous study. The subject being a very complicated one, it cannot be explained within a few pages. Also, it has been defined by different experts in different ways, but the basic principles to which they all point to are the same." ------- Nina. #125490 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Dear Nina , no doubt about the importance of blood in respect to medicine , diagnosis and treatment and much of the ancient wisdom , particular from the East , has shown new ways for the West. Now even Blood Type Science developed which I assume is more serious than the application of the 4 blood types for personality assessment. ( as O- type , I am described by 'curious, generous but stubborn..' well ..;-) Likewise 'The Hippocratic school held that four humors: blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm consists the basis for the four types of temperaments' , oversimplifies the complexity of character. Another issue is the judgements of ancient commentaries like the Atthasalini. The remark of the questioner you quoted sounds to me superficially . That more details are known nowadays and so another language is used , doesn't make the information worthless. However "seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity " (even without surgical intervention ) and penetrate by that a person's mind , is quite difficult to believe and I suppose the possibility that a former simile was taken literally after some time.. with Metta Dieter. #125491 From: Vince Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:11 am Subject: Fear cerovzt "The thought would occur to me: Is this that fear & terror coming? Then the thought occurred to me: Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever state they come? So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had subdued that fear & terror." - Bhaya-bherava Sutta Vince. #125492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:57 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5. The Buddhas Enlightenment. In the Discourse on Wonderful and Marvellous Qualities (Middle Length Sayings III, no. 123) we read that the Buddha asked Ananda to deliver to the monks a discourse on the wonderful and marvellous qualities of the Tathaagata. nanda said that the Bodhisatta arose in the Tusita heaven mindful and clearly conscious. This was a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Lords. He remained in the Tusita heaven mindful and clearly conscious. Ananda said that this too was a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Lords. The Bodhisatta had accumulated mindfulness and wisdom in countless lives and his next life would be his last one in the course of which he would attain Buddhahood. He stayed in the Tusita heaven for as long as his lifespan lasted. This was another wonderful and marvellous quality. According to the commentary to the Middle Length Sayings, the Papacasdani, this was due to the fact that he had fulfilled all the perfections; there was no gift he had not given, no sla he had not observed. The Bodhisatta had fulfilled all the perfections and now the time had come for his last birth as Prince Siddhatta Gotama, son of Sudodhana, King of the Sakyans, and Queen Maya. He was born 623 B.C. in the Lumbini Gardens, in what is today the country of Nepal. In Lumbini we saw the pillar King Asoka had erected 249 B.C. when he paid homage at the place where the Buddha was born. There is an inscription on the pillar saying that King Asoka, after he had been anointed for twenty years, came himself and worshipped this spot, because the Buddha Sakyamuni was born here. The inscription also says that he made the village of Lumbini free of taxes and that it had to pay only an eighth share of the produce. We paid respect near the Asoka pillar with candles, incense and chanting, and also through considering and investigating nma and rpa. Satipatthna is the highest respect we can pay to him who fulfilled all the perfections in order to teach devas and men satipatthna. The pavement was extremely hot for our bare feet, but are there not nma and rpa that can be known when they appear? Also when we have aversion there are nma and rpa and pa can begin to know their characteristics. At the moment of mindfulness there is no aversion and in this way one starts to attach less importance to the fact whether experiences are pleasant or unpleasant. We have accumulated attachment and aversion and when there are conditions they arise, but through right understanding we shall learn to see them as they are: only conditioned realities. ****** Nina. #125493 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > S: I don't know that we can even talk about a "set of five khandhas" arising and > falling away, followed by "a new set". Each reality, each khandha arises and > falls away, different from each other....... .... > KH: Thanks, I can never remember which rupas arise with which namas even though you and others have explained it to me. > > So, when seeing consciousness falls away to be replaced by viriya consciousness, and then by mind consciousness etc., the eye base rupa remains (even though it is no longer in use)? ..... S: In an eye-door process, there are up to 17 cittas. In order for the visible object to be experienced, it must have already arisen prior to the adverting consciousness, seeing and subsequent cittas arising. It lasts for the entire process and then falls away before the following bhavanga cittas and mind-door process cittas arise. The eye-sense similarly must have arisen before the eye-door process cittas arise to experience visible object. Without the eye-sense - the door through which they all experience the object - there could be no experiencing of visible object. So, it remains the door, an ayatana for the whole process, even though it is only the base or support for the seeing consciousness itself. (A tricky area). Again it falls away at the end of the process, max 17 cittas. .... > > I was thinking it would fall away. I might have asked you this before, but sometimes a sense-door citta process lasts less than 17 citta moments, doesn't it? Is that because the sense rupa was not strong, or is it because the arresting citta (or the citta that began the citta process) was not strong? .... S: I think neither of those. If the rupa involved is too far gone by the time the arrest bhavanga citta arises, there cannot be a full sense door process for obvious reasons. This doesn't mean that the rupa was not strong, just that it was experienced too late. Sometimes also, there are no tadarammana cittas at the end of the process. .... > > My theory was that the rupa didn't last. And so I decided by analogy that the eye-base rupa would also not last 17 moments. ... S: The rupa still lasts 17x as long as the citta even if a full process of cittas doesn't experience it. ... > > Now that I think about it, I am at least partly right, aren't I? If I had better internet access I would check the DSG files, but we commonly say "rupa lasts for up to 17 citta moments," don't we? So why would we assume the sense base rupas last 17 moments? ... S: Maybe because they do!! I think it would be more accurate in the first statement to say that "rupa is experienced by up to 17 cittas" because rupas last for 17x as long as cittas. As Nina wrote in a recent message in the Vism series: "When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door." ... > KH: Having a great time thanks even though not much sunshine. But it's the same wherever we go, just one citta lasting one citta moment. Plus whatever rupas there might be! :-) ... S: Yes, that's the important point - understanding that wherever we go, there is just one citta experiencing one object - just the experiencing of visible object, sound or thinking wherever we go. Metta Sarah ===== #125494 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Buddh. Dict. > pa~n~naa > .aunderstanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight.a, comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanaa, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbaana (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattaa) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhana. > > D: why ' however'? ..it is 'wisdom endowed with knowledge or insight (PTS) . > I think as a matter of speech , we use ' panna ' replacing avijja , don't we ? ... S: "However", because not all kinds of pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa of the NEP. For example, pa~n~naa in the development of samatha, in the attainment of the mundane jhanas is not NEP pa~n~naa. When there is pa~n~naa, there is no avijja and it is panna which eradicates avaijja. This doesn't mean that there is panna whenever avijja doesn't arise or that all kinds of panna work towards eradicating avijja. Again, the development of samatha does not eradicate avijja. ... >s: When the Dhamma is described thus and panna is seen as "applied by the intellect of a given individual"....."wisdom or science, or knowledge, or philosophy".... no wonder it seems like dry bones! > > D: your objection is not yet clear to me .. > By :'.. to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individuaI' , she implies pariyatti and patipatti , doesn't she? It is not that I think she said it very well , but... ... S: What is described seems to have nothing to do with pariyatti or patipatti imo. For example, science or philosophy as applied by the intellect - what panna is there? Metta Sarah ==== #125495 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: Fear philofillet Hello Vince I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > subdued that fear & terror." > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > Vince. > #125496 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lbidd2" wrote: > Ahhhh, the eternal debate. Okay, let's jump in: ... S: :-)) ... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > >L: When you are sad you are also standing or sitting or lying down, maybe > > > walking or running. > > ... > > S: What does this mean? In truth isn't it true that sadness is just a mental factor that arises and passes away? We say conventionally that we're in this or that posture, but isn't this just an idea we have? Really, just different elements arising and passing away. > > Larry: First, let's go to the "idea". Yes, all the words are ideas. They are actually little rupas, but let's not get into that. ... S: Since when were ideas "little rupas"? Let's go into that!! ... >I'm just using ordinary language in an attempt to be helpful. ... S: Appreciated. ... > >L: Whatever the posture, it isn't sad. Mary Carbone is > > > a group effort, not "just sad". This is the meaning of emptiness. > > ... > >S; Again, what does this mean, the "group effort". Do you mean that what we take for Mary or Larry are really just different mental states at such times? What do you understand by "emptiness"? > > L: Any experience is a group of many elements. In actuality no element defines the group. So the group is empty of a definition. In that sense the group is somewhat open. However, usually we bunch everything together and say this is it. "Sad" for example. ... S: Yes, usually just a big "bunch up"! Really, only various elements. I agree that what we usually take for "Sad" is just one of those "bunch ups"! ... > L: Good to see you Sarah. What do you understand by "emptiness"? ... S: Unless we are talking Sunnata/anatta of dhammas, it means nothing to me. For example, concepts and "bunch ups" are not anatta. However, each of those elements, such as seeing, visible object or aversion/sadness is anatta or "empty" of any self or core. How does that sound? Metta Sarah p.s so happy to chat to you again, Larry. ====== #125497 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Fear rjkjp1 Dear Phil I think even intelllectual understanding of anatta precludes most , but not all fear? Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hello Vince > > I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. > > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > > subdued that fear & terror." > > > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > > > > > > > Vince. > > > #125498 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125486) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > - The Buddha pointed out the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas as being the development of the path; > > - that development does not involve identifying a specific relationship between dhammas and concepts (i.e., identifying in exactly what way (if any) dhammas are related to concepts); > > - the Buddha in his teaching did not assert a relationship between dhammas and concepts of the kind you are suggesting (i.e., that concepts point to dhammas). > > > > In brief, the path can be developed to the full without dwelling on this point. > > RE: I don't think it's clear that this is the case. The Buddha spoke about many conventional actions and objects and included them as part of the path in his speech. He did not make the statement that he only spoke of such things for convenience and that only understanding dhammas constituted the path. It is a point of interpretation to assert this, not a point of fact. > > When the Buddha says that one should not drink alcohol because it clouds the mind, some would say that this is just a signpost for mental factors; others would say that it is a literal prohibition; and others would say that both the mental state and the action are important [that is what I would say.] It is not settled which of these three views most accurately reflect the Buddha's teaching, but it is clear that the third alternative is the one the Buddha followed in his way of addressing such issues. Since such a view does not contradict commentary, and does make most sense of the Buddha's own words, it is the alternative that I choose to adopt. > =============== J: There is no doubt but that the Buddha encouraged the development of kusala of all kinds, and not just the development of panna. But `kusala' is a (purely) mental quality; not a characteristic of a conventional activity. Conventional activities cannot have directly experiencable characteristics. "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." Pali: Manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati vaa karoti vaa tato na.m dukkhamanveti cakka.m.ava vahato pada.m. Manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena bhaasati vaa karoti vaa tato na.m sukhamanveti chaayaa.ava anapaayinii. (Dhammapada, Yamaka vagga, v.1, 2) So when the Buddha speaks about conventionally kusala actions, he of course means that part of any action that is accompanied by kusala. Furthermore, when the development of kusala (other than insight) is encouraged, it is generally in the context of the development of insight, that is to say, not just for its own sake. > =============== > RE: While I think that direct understanding is the ultimate fruit of the path, and while I think that enlightenment is a matter of the transformation of consciousness, I don't agree that the path is only constituted of understanding, but of all the factors that the Buddha spoke of. > =============== J: The "ultimate fruit of the path" is surely enlightenment, with direct understanding (of dhammas) as its means. > =============== > > J: All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). > > RE: What I have in mind is considering intellectual understandings removed from conventional issues that occur in everyday life, such as one's work, behavior, relationships, and other life circumstances. > =============== J: When talking about understanding in the context of the development of the path, we are talking about the understanding *of dhammas*, right? There is no such thing as the understanding of dhammas that is removed from everyday life. And conversely there is no situation in everyday life in which it is impossible for understanding of dhammas to arise (if conditions are appropriate). Jon #125499 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 11-jul-2012, om 18:18 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > However "seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity " (even > without surgical intervention ) and penetrate by that a person's > mind , is quite difficult > to believe and I suppose the possibility that a former simile was > taken literally after some time.. ------ N: Yes, the abhi~n~nas are quite difficult, like walking on water. Not for anybody. In the context of the Ayurveda I think that it is not so strange that the heartbase is somewhere in the blood of the heart. It has to be somewhere, not outside the body. BTW, taking a break next week. Nina. #125500 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:37 am Subject: Re: rebirth anagami chewsadhu Dear Nina, In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > > Nina. > #125501 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Dear Nina, N: Yes, the abhi~n~nas are quite difficult, like walking on water. Not for anybody.In the context of the Ayurveda I think that it is not so strange that the heartbase is somewhere in the blood of the heart. It has to be somewhere, not outside the body. BTW, taking a break next week. D: wishing already now a happy wandering ;-) with Metta Dieter #125502 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Fear philofillet Hi Rob K > I think even intelllectual understanding of anatta precludes most , but not all fear? > Robert Understanding anatta iintellectually certainly helps me drop regret (akusala) about bad and/or silly behaviour in a hurry. For example I can do silly things like quitting DSG and coming back a dozen times a year and understand why that happens, accept the uncontrollability of it. But I think the degree of understanding and accompanying saddha and other kusala factors will have to deepen significantly for mortal fear to be precluded for me. But that's just speculation. Phil #125503 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear nilovg Dear Phil, Op 12-jul-2012, om 15:03 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But I think the degree of understanding and accompanying saddha and > other kusala factors will have to deepen significantly for mortal > fear to be precluded for me. But that's just speculation. ------ N: But a beginning can be made by investigating seeing now, visible object now, these appear all the time. It does not help so much to think of the future: when will understanding and saddha deepen. And mortal fear: does it arise now? It is rather the dosa of the degree of dislike certain things or people. This is likely to be my dosa all the time. ----- Nina. #125504 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:44 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. Pt. 2. > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > =============== > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? It shows a relationship between kusala dhammas and conventional actions. Kusala mental states lead to less murder. Another example - if one has kusala mental states, one would be likely to engage in 'right speech' in the "conventional world." Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125505 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear philofillet Hi Nins > ------ > N: But a beginning can be made by investigating seeing now, visible > object now, these appear all the time. Yes, I was going to write something sbout this. Listening to Ajahn Sujin a lot (I am not these days) brings this home again and again, I feel this is the arena/field in which understanding really develops, but there isn't much to write about it in a discusssion group, it's not as fascinatiing as deep topics like D.O, there is attention to it, or there isn't, there is listening to friends who remind us about it or there isn't, it's anatta. And when there is remembering and attention to hearing now, seeing now, no fear. But so easy for thinking with attachment to come in again and again, my understanding, feels good. But that's a reality too, anatta. Yes, Rob K is right, understanding anatta intellectually is very helpful. There is fear about my upcoming trip to Canada for various reasons but thinking about dhammas arising and falling away beyond the control of a self attenuates the fear. Phil Phil It does not help so much to > think of the future: when will understanding and saddha deepen. And > mortal fear: does it arise now? It is rather the dosa of the degree > of dislike certain things or people. This is likely to be my dosa all > the time. > ----- > Nina. > > > > > #125506 From: han tun Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami hantun1 Dear Chew (Nina, Sarah), How are you? All my age-related illnesses are under control. But I am getting weak day by day. But I have to accept it; I cannot expect otherwise! Please allow to come in. Chew: In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? Han: There is a very good description in CMA. I am sure you must have the CMA. For those, who do not have the CMA, I print below the text. CMA on page 361. # 40 The Non-Returner Anaagaamimagga.m bhaavetvaa kaamaraagavyaapaadaana.m anavasesappahaanena anaagaamii naama hoti, anaagantaa itihatta.m. Having developed the path of non-returning, by totally abandoning sensual lust and ill will, one becomes a non-returner, one who does not return to this (sensuous) state. Guide to # 40 A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non-returners are reborn there. The texts mention five types of non-returner: (1) One who, having been reborn spontaneously in a higher world, generates the final path before he has reached the midpoint of the life-span (antaraa-parinibbaayii). (2) One who generates the final path after passing the midpoint of the life-span, even when on the verge of death (upahacca-parinibbaayii). (3) One who attains the final path without exertion (asankhaara-parinibbaayii). (4) One who attains the final path with exertion (sasankhaara-parinibbaayii). (5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha.msoto akani.t.thagamii). with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 7/12/12, Sadhu Chew wrote: From: Sadhu Chew Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 12, 2012, 10:37 PM Dear Nina, In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > > Nina. > #125507 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:47 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. Pt. 3. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: >...No action can be 'right' unless it is action that's accompanied by kusala consciousness; so it's down to mental factors again. How about action + kusala mental factors? You can't have kusala mental factors + murder, so there is a contribution of the action as well. I think your point is well taken when it comes to actions that would otherwise be kusala, but which are "poisoned" by akusala; ie, you give to charity in order to feel good about yourself instead of it being accompanied by actual metta. So mental factors "make or break" the action, but still don't substitute for it. If you have lovely mental factors but watch someone being murdered without helping them, that is not kusala, even if the mental factors are great. So I would just reiterate, it is not one or the other, mental or behavioral, but both. Both have to be kusala. Not only can a negative mental factor "spoil the broth," but so can the wrong action. > 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. In fact it partially is - murder can never be kusala, no matter what. It is a 'wrong action' no matter what the mental factors accompanying it. > > =============== > > RE: The Buddha pointed out that there are things that are real in the ultimate sense and that are not known as they truly are, and he declared that only by the development of understanding of these things can there be enlightenment and escape from samsara. > > > > He also said that without the other aspects of the path, such as right action, such understanding could not properly develop. The path does not emanate from purely intellectual activity. > > =============== > > J: This is the point of contention I mention above :-)) > > > =============== > > > J: The development of that understanding does not involve identifying any particular relationship between dhammas and conventional objects and, as far as I'm aware, the Buddha never asserted such a relationship as part of the development of the path. > > > > RE: Well he talked about life, action, meditation and dictates of right living continuously, both for monks and lay people. What does all that add up to? > > =============== > > J: I would answer that (rhetorical) question of yours by one of my own: What did the Buddha (or what do the texts) *say* it all adds up to? :-)) I'd say they say that it adds up to a correct combination of factors. In fact, both the Buddha and the commentaries speak of the three levels of kamma patha - mental, speech and physical. I think we ignore such itemization at our peril, and I take seriously the idea that all three levels have to line up or you don't have true kusala. If mental factors do not translate into right speech and right action, the kusala is poisoned, and you get akusala kamma patha. As I'm sure you would agree, the arahant not only has perfected mental factors, but also demonstrates perfectly expressed kusala speech and action. It's not one without the other, though there are those here who choose to emphasize kusala mental factors to the exclusion of all else. I just don't think that is justified by anything I've seen in the actual texts. Do you have a text - and this is not meant rhetorically - that demonstrates directly that I am wrong about this? I would be very anxious to see it. > > =============== > > > J: I would say he was at pains to assert the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas. > > > > RE: Well he was also at pains to talk about all the conditions necessary to develop this, and that included how one lives in the conventional world. > > =============== > > J: This is the same point of contention. I am sure we can find many, many quotes where the Buddha talks about how to live and act in the conventional world, for instance large portions of the vinaya, as well as many many suttas, and the commentaries discuss correct behavior and speech as well, not just dhammas. Can you likewise show quotes that demonstrate that the only thing of importance is the development of the understanding of dhammas in the paramatha sense, and not in the sense of how one lives and acts in the world? > > =============== > > > J: I'm wondering what is the basis for the notion that "real activities exist in the world". Is this from the texts, or is it your personal experience? > > > > RE: It is from the Buddha's own mentioning of such things in very conventional contexts. While dhammas are always implicated, that doesn't mean that the actions and responses in the world are not meaningful. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, the 'meaningfulness' of actions and responses is a factor of the mental factors by which they are accompanied. You may think that, but that is not what The Buddha or even the commentaries say in many instances. They speak of the mental factors AND the behavioral world that results from or accompanies such mental factors as well. They do not leave these other levels out of the discussion, and neither should we. In fact, I would say that the way we act conventionally does indeed reflect the mental factors that are influencing our behavior. It would seem strange if we supposed that these two levels of reality were disparate - that for instance we could be experiencing many moments of metta while cursing and screaming and killing people in the "conventional" world. Obviously that does not take place, and for good reason - they just don't go together. > > =============== > > > J: You seem to be positing a 2-tier reality: (a) dhammas and (b) conventional objects/activities. > > > > RE: The Buddha said may times that ultimate reality and conventional reality were both true in their own realms, and that they did not contradict each other. > > > > "The Awakened One, the best of teachers, spoke of two truths, conventional and higher; no third is ascertained; a conventional statement is true because of convention and a higher statement is true as disclosing the true characteristics of events." > > - Khathāvatthu Aṭṭha kathǎ > > =============== > > J: But this passage does not state (or imply) the existence of a so-called 'conventional reality'. It says only that "a conventional statement is true because of convention". Why say it is true, if one is not acknowledging that convention does establish a sense of what is real in daily living? Why not say the opposite, that "though convention establishes its own type of truth, it is not in fact true." > > =============== > > > >RE: And Nina has said as much most recently. > > > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > =============== > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? I have answered this in my 'pt. 2' response, but you have not said anything about Nina's statement. She said that "there is no contradiction between conventional reality and paramatha dhammas," though I may have mistaken a word or two. And I would reverse the statement to say that in fact "conventional reality follows paramatha dhammas," and is the imperfect reflection of paramatha dhammas that worldlings experience. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125508 From: "azita" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:39 pm Subject: Re: Fear gazita2002 Hallo Phil, I guess you realise that the "mental candy" is probably jst lobha? However, I can sort of understand what yr doin - sort of. Yesterday was a dog of a day for me so I jst sat with it until there was no more light in the sky {and BTW it was a stunning sunset} and then watched some TV. We get hooked on having good feeling - who doesnt - so when theres unpleasant feeling 'we' dont like it. Now to cheer you even further, there is probably aeons of this to come, golly gosh what to do - develop right understanding now of whatever arises. Easy eh!!:( Patience, courage and good cheer, azita > I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. > > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > > subdued that fear & terror." > > > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > > > > > > > Vince. > > > #125509 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear nilovg Dear Phil, Op 12-jul-2012, om 21:54 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Yes, Rob K is right, understanding anatta intellectually is very > helpful. There is fear about my upcoming trip to Canada for various > reasons but thinking about dhammas arising and falling away beyond > the control of a self attenuates the fear. ------ N: Yes, I know, especially concern about your mother. But when you think of others' wellbeing, no fear. That helps. Otherwise we are constantly concerned about 'my fear'. This morning I heard a good reminder by Kh Sujin: we are constantly after our dreams, not only at night but also during the day. Creating stories with lobha and dosa. Stories about other people or ourselves: how will this be, what will happen? Very human. I hope you have a fruitful trip, Nina. #125510 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami chewsadhu Dear Han, I am very happy to hear from you. Thank you for your Dhamma sharing. It is always very helpful. I seldom review the CMA recently. I noticed that I have forgotten some of the information. It shows that my memory is not strong enough. But Nina and you are very good. It seems that both of you can remember very well most of the Dhamma that you have studied. Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu. May you be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chew (Nina, Sarah), > > How are you? > All my age-related illnesses are under control. But I am getting weak day by day. > But I have to accept it; I cannot expect otherwise! > > Please allow to come in. > > Chew: In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? > > Han: There is a very good description in CMA. > I am sure you must have the CMA. > For those, who do not have the CMA, I print below the text. > > CMA on page 361. > > # 40 The Non-Returner > > Anaagaamimagga.m bhaavetvaa kaamaraagavyaapaadaana.m anavasesappahaanena anaagaamii naama hoti, anaagantaa itihatta.m. > > Having developed the path of non-returning, by totally abandoning sensual lust and ill will, one becomes a non-returner, one who does not return to this (sensuous) state. > > Guide to # 40 > > A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non-returners are reborn there. > > The texts mention five types of non-returner: > > (1) One who, having been reborn spontaneously in a higher world, generates the final path before he has reached the midpoint of the life-span (antaraa-parinibbaayii). > > (2) One who generates the final path after passing the midpoint of the life-span, even when on the verge of death (upahacca-parinibbaayii). > > (3) One who attains the final path without exertion (asankhaara-parinibbaayii). > > (4) One who attains the final path with exertion (sasankhaara-parinibbaayii). > > (5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha.msoto akani.t.thagamii). > > with metta and respect, > Han > > --- On Thu, 7/12/12, Sadhu Chew wrote: > From: Sadhu Chew > Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 12, 2012, 10:37 PM > > Dear Nina, > > In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? > > Chew > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > > > > Nina. > > > #125511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami nilovg Dear Han (Chew), Excellent, Han. A very good and detailed answer. I keep it in my files. What is CMA? I am glad you are well. Lodewijk also finds that he gets weaker and weaker, but we all do. The consequence of birth! Glad to hear from you, with appreciation, Nina. Op 13-jul-2012, om 1:17 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > CMA on page 361. > > # 40 The Non-Returner > > Anaagaamimagga.m bhaavetvaa kaamaraagavyaapaadaana.m > anavasesappahaanena anaagaamii naama hoti, anaagantaa itihatta.m. > > Having developed the path of non-returning, by totally abandoning > sensual lust and ill will, one becomes a non-returner, one who does > not return to this (sensuous) state. #125512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch. 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the same sutta that the Bodhisattas mother gave birth while standing and that four devas received him and placed him in front of his mother. Two streams of water appeared from the sky, one cool and one warm, which were used for a water-libation for the Bodhisatta and his mother. Today we see a pool which reminds us of those heavenly streams of water used for the water-libation. There is also a temple, erected on top of an older structute, in honour of Queeen Mya. She died on the seventh day after the birth of the Bodhisatta, as is always the case for the Bodhisattas mother. We read in the same sutta: Face to face with the Lord, revered sir, have I heard, face to face have I learnt: The moment, nanda, the Bodhisatta has come to birth, standing on even feet and facing north, he takes seven strides, and while a white sunshade is being held over him, he scans all the quarters and utters as with the voice of a bull: I am chief in the world, I am best in the world, I am eldest in the world. This is the last birth, there is not now again-becoming. And inasmuch, revered sir,... I regard this too as a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Lords. After nanda had enumerated all the wonderful and marvellous qualities, the Buddha added another wonderful and marvellous quality: Wherefore do you, nanda, regard this too as a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Tathgatas: As to this, nanda, the feelings that arise in the Tathgata are known; known they persist; known they go to destruction; perceptions are known; the thoughts that arise are known; known they persist; known they go to destruction. So do you, nanda, regard this too as a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Tathgatas. After having heard about all the marvels connected with the birth of the Bodhisatta one might be surprised about the last mentioned marvellous quality. Some people are surprised that the Buddhas teachings deal with such common realities as seeing, hearing, thinking or feelings. They expect that there is mystery in Buddhism. The Buddha taught us the development of understanding in order to know the impermanence of feelings, perceptions, thoughts and all the other realities. This kind of understanding leads to the end of birth and all sorrow. Not mystery is the aim of the Buddhas teachings, but discovery of the true nature of realities. Is this not the greatest marvellous quality of the Buddha? ****** Nina. #125513 From: han tun Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami hantun1 Dear Nina (and Chew), CMA is A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (The Abhidhamma Sangaha of Aacariya Anuruddha), originally translated by Mahaathera Naarada, and translation revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi. I always think of Lodewijk. We are almost in the same health condition. The enlarged prostate with the chance of becoming cancerous, the coronary insufficiency, the persistent anaemia, and the age-related macula degeneration both eyes which limits my computer work, do not worry me too much. What annoys me most is the general muscular weakness combined with dizziness on getting up or crossing the road. When I go out alone, I could fall down with dizziness any time. So I am now wearing a tag (like identification tags worn by military personnel) bearing my name and the phone numbers to contact. I like very much what you wrote: The consequence of birth! with best wishes, Han --- On Fri, 7/13/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Han (Chew), Excellent, Han. A very good and detailed answer. I keep it in my files. What is CMA? I am glad you are well. Lodewijk also finds that he gets weaker and weaker, but we all do. The consequence of birth! Glad to hear from you, with appreciation, Nina. #125514 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear philofillet Hi Nina > ------ > N: Yes, I know, especially concern about your mother. But when you > think of others' wellbeing, no fear. Ph: *If* you think of others' wellbeing. I (like most people) actually only think about my own wellbeing. Even my mothers' violent dementia is more upsetting because of what it means for me than what it means for her. I don't know if that makes me a deviant, or completely normal, but that's the way it is. But then concern for the wellbeing of others will arise in an uncontrollable way, and there are many moments of helping others sincerely. THank you Nina, I will be checking out of this thread after one more post to Azita. Phil #125515 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Fear philofillet Hi Azita > I guess you realise that the "mental candy" is probably jst lobha? Absolutely, no doubt about it. It inolves tapping into the "ki" or "chi" or whatever you want to call that energy in the body. That "ki" is a reality, I have no doubt about that, but I don't know where it falls in amoung dhammas and I don't really care to find out. It feels good, and I am able to tap into it very effectively. Within a minute or so, or even less, I can sit wherever I am and feel it vibrant and glowing. Complete attachmen. Gurus and other teachers make something holy out of it, calling it a higher consciousness, or a cosmic energy or whatever, and I can have fun playing with those ideas. But basically I find it refreshing, energizing and much much better than alcohol, for example. Thta's why I was recommending "meditation" and yoga to Lukas, to help him fight drug addiction. (In addition to rehabilation.) When it comes to physical health and energy, meditation is undeniably great. (Except, I guess, for people who get into it too seriously.) The danger is that I start to believe some of the related concepts. Like many or most BUddhists there is an eternalist lurking in me (some of you out there, too, if you are honest) so it is playing with fire. But I am kind of dependent on it now. Continuing to study Abhidhamma, which represents an infinitely deeper truth, should hopefully prevent a completely submersion in that wrong view, but there is no way to know! > However, I can sort of understand what yr doin - sort of. Yesterday was a dog of a day for me so I jst sat with it until there was no more light in the sky {and BTW it was a stunning sunset} and then watched some TV. We get hooked on having good feeling - who doesnt - so when theres unpleasant feeling 'we' dont like it. Ph: Yes, when you're body is vibrant and glowing with "ki" energy, pretty addictive. > Now to cheer you even further, there is probably aeons of this to come, golly gosh what to do - develop right understanding now of whatever arises. Easy eh!!:( Ph: To be honest, I don't really believe that anyone here is up to facing the hardships of life, even mundane hardships such as physical fatigue and hard, hard, tiring days, without turning to ideas about Dhamma with attachment. Now, we always tell meditators (as we should) that practices rooted in lobha cannot lead to the development of kusala, but are we honest in asking ourselves if thinking about Dhamma with lobha can condition the development of kusala. Why should it? Just because the concept of the thinking is about Dhamma and dhammas? On the other hand, no doubt whatsoever in the kusala that is developed oh-so-gradually through moments of understanding seeing now, hearing now, thinking now, in other words satipatthana. We're lucky to listen to A. Sujin, we can be spared that lobha trap that practitioners of techniques are doomed to fall into, and to make the fall with the delusion that they are developing kusala. Just my obnoxious opinion, I might as well add that for good manners. > Patience, courage and good cheer, Everybody always loves this sign off of year, but patience, courage and good chheer *with detachment*, very rare surely... Thanks Azita, I'll be stepping away again. PHil Phil > > > I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. > > > > > > Phil <...> #125516 From: "Alberto" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:43 pm Subject: Re: Fear sprlrt Hi Vince & all, I've looked up the sutta (MN 4). The Buddha is replying to a local brahmin asking about the dangers of being seized by fear while doing (miccha) samadhi meditation in woods or wild places without (samma) samadhi. The Buddha says that any bhikkhu or samana going to such a place for such a purpose without being endowed with a pure bodily, verbal and mental conduct is bound to incur in such drawbacks, even to point of mental derangement. While a bhikkhu or samana endowed with those qualities (which include a pure mental conduct, i.e. siilaa isn't enough to develop samatha/samma samadhi, panna is also required, as is stated in one of the paragraph that follows) isn't carried away by those fears and subdues them. There is also an advanced vipassana stage which involves fear, udhayabbhaya nana, but this of course is kusala (i.e. unpleasant feeling don't arise then) and refers to the dukkha characteristic of all conditioned realities experienced at that stage of the path, giving a sense of urgency towards nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > subdued that fear & terror." > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > Vince. > #125517 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:42 am Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > =============== > > > J: Rob E, I'm just wondering if what you're referring to is the fact that each citta is related to one that preceded it and one that follows it by contiguity condition (among others). > > > > RE: Yes that is at the very least an important part of what I am referencing. > > > > > J: So are you perhaps saying that cittas that are so related can be regarded as being in a 'stream'. > > > > RE: Well of course they are creating the conditions for each next one, like dominoes, and thus have a very lawful and identifiable relationship from moment to moment. To say that this is not the case would be to ignore the obvious. > > =============== > > J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a stream, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). Do you think you can explain to me how this actually works? How does the 'complete falling away' of a citta condition the arising of a new one? Is there some sort of cetana lurking between cittas that causes a new citta to arise when the other has fallen away? I don't see how it is possible, but obviously I'm missing something. In ordinary terminology, something that has 'fallen away completely' leaving nothing behind cannot condition anything, and another citta cannot arise out of nothing. So it seems to me that the previous citta in some way is transmitting its 'info' to the next one while it is still here, but I have no idea how this takes place, either before or after the falling away. If you could explain this to me technically, I would really appreciate it. > It is not said that the preceding citta in any sense *causes* (nor "creates the conditions for") the arising of the succeeding one; there are other forces at play here, one of which is that there are certain fixed orders of cittas (Pali: niyama), for example, the order of cittas in a sense-door process. I can believe there are a number of laws and conditioning elements that cause the next citta to arise, but I have no conception of how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them. However, whatever the explanation is, the fact remains that an enormous amount of what existed in the previous citta is transmitted to the next one, via accumulations, latent tendencies, sanna, etc. Is that not correct? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #125518 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. epsteinrob Hi Nina and Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Op 10-jul-2012, om 8:50 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > Our overseas group consisted of four lay- people only - you, > > K.Sujin, K.Douangduen and myself - all sharing a room in the house. > > I learnt about getting up early in the day. K.Duangduen would wake > > at about 5.00, turn on the light and start doing her laundry and > > other chores. I thought this was so strange at the time, but I've > > been an early riser more-or-less ever since! > ------- > N: Yes, the memory is so vivid, like it was yesterday. I just told > Lodewijk about Kh Duangduen, so early, and her alarmclock. > When going around the stupa there was thunder and rain. Kh Sujin > could not care less that she got quite wet. > The white lotuses, I guess this was a gift of Kh Sujin. Ven. > Dhammadharo and other monks leading the procession, going around the > Bo tree. I like these memories very much, and I appreciate the story of Kh Sujin going around the stupa in the rain, not caring that she was getting wet - a lovely image. Thanks for sharing these nice stories and memories. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125519 From: Vince Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear cerovzt Hi Alberto you wrote: > There is also an advanced vipassana stage which involves fear, udhayabbhaya nana, but > this of course is kusala (i.e. unpleasant feeling don't arise then) and refers to the > dukkha characteristic of all conditioned realities experienced at that stage of the > path, giving a sense of urgency towards nibbana, the unconditioned reality. thanks for the explanation. So I understand the Buddha recommendation is for that particular type of fear, and more directly addressed for the people cultivating jhanas (jhana-monks). Is this right? best, Vince, #125520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:25 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch. 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, In order to discover the truth the Bodhisatta left his life of sense pleasures for the homeless life. He took instructions first from lara the Kalama who could attain arpa-jhna (immaterial jhna) as far as the plane of nothing. Since the Bodhisatta mastered what he taught, lara regarded him as his equal and set him on the same level as himself. The Bodhisatta found that laras teaching did not lead to enlightenment and he left lara. He then took instructions from Uddaka who could attain the highest stage of arpa-jhna which is the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. The Bodhisatta mastered what Uddaka taught and was set on the same level as the teacher. The Bodhisatta found that also Uddakas teaching did not lead to self-awakening, to nibbna. Therefore, he decided to search for the truth all by himself. He practised rigid austerities and became like a skeleton. Then he found out that such practices were not the way to enlightenment. He decided to take some solid food (Greater Discourse to Saccaka, Middle Length Sayings I, no 36). On the full-moon day of May (Viskh) he accepted boiled rice and sour milk from Sujt, near the river Nerajar. The five disciples who attended to him left when they saw him accepting solid food, because they thought that he had reverted to a life of abundance. We read in the Commentators Introduction to the Ther-gth that, after the Bodhisatta had eaten the food, he cast the golden dish upstream into the river, and, full of his resolution Today will I become a Buddha!, ascended at eventide the Bo-tree seat. He had made the resolution to become a Buddha aeons ago and he had renewed this resolution time and again during his countless lives as a Bodhisatta. That evening he walked full of his resolution to the Bodhi-tree, after he had spent the day in various attainments in the dense Great Forest on the bank of the river (Expositor I, 34). According to the commentary to the Jtakas, when he sat down under the Bodhi-tree he resolved that he would not change his seat until he had attained enlightenment, speaking the following words: Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my bodys flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving. Later on he spoke these words to the monks when he told them about the energy he had applied in order to attain enlightenment. He exhorted them to apply energy as well (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Twos, Ch 1, 5). ******* Nina. #125521 From: "Alberto" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear sprlrt Hi Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > thanks for the explanation. So I understand the Buddha recommendation is for that > particular type of fear, and more directly addressed for the people cultivating > jhanas (jhana-monks). Is this right? [19. "I considered thus: 'Whenever recluses or brahmins devoid of wisdom, drivellers, resort to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest, then owing to the defect of their being devoid of wisdom and drivellers these good recluses and brahmins evoke unwholesome fear and dread."]... (MN-4 BB transl) Unwholesome is the standard translation for akusala. Visuddhimagga clarifies the meaning of the kusala 'fear' related to bhayatupatthaana nana (I've got the name wrong in my last post) vipassana stage: [32. But does the knowledge of appearance as terror [itself] fear or does not fear? It does not fear. For it is simply the mere judgment that past formation have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease.]...(Vis-ch.21 Nn transl). tirana-parinna, the second of the parinnas (direct understanding by investigation) is the paali for 'judgment'. Alberto #125522 From: "Alberto" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear sprlrt Hi again Vince, Also, the quote you posted follows a 'Before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta...' statement, which explains why he was still experiencing (akusala) fear. Alberto #125523 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:52 am Subject: Diamond wedding anniversary sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Lodewijk, Our congratulations and very best wishes for your diamond wedding anniversary - 60 years of good and wise friendship and companionship together is a real blessing. "Even ornamented royal chariots wear out. So too the body reaches old age. But the Dhamma of the Good grows not old. Thus do the Good reveal it among the Good." Dhp 151, Narada transl) "Jiiranti ve raajarathaa sucittaa atho sariiram pi jara.m upeti Sata.m ca dhamma na jara.m upeti Santo have sabbhi pavedayanti." Metta and best wishes for continued wise and joyful companionship. Sarah & Jonothan ===================== #125524 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ...it's the cittas which arise at a particular location. In this realm, cittas all need a base - eye-base for seeing, ear-base for hearing or heart-base for most cittas. > > Let's talk about the touching of hardness now as we hit the computer key. The hardness rupa experienced, arises in a kalapa and falls away instantly. Clearly that hardness experienced at that instant is different from the hardness experienced when touching one's arm, even though they are both just hardness (pathavi) rupas. ... > It just means that in both instances the experiencing of a particular hardness is a result of kamma, experienced through the body-sense. At either moment, there is the coming together, the meeting of body consciousness (and accompanying mental factors), a tangible object and body-sense. These are different dhammas which arise and fall away by their own conditions. At that instant, a particular body consciousness experiences a particular tangible object at a particular body-sense or base rupa. (Body-sense rupas arise and fall away all over what we take for our body). There will never again be the same body consciousness arising, the same tangible object experienced or the same body-sense rupa as support. ... > ... > S: It's like when we talk about the body-sense location of the finger when touching the keyboard. It's just correct conventional language (sammuti or vohara sacca) to indicate that rupas are different, cittas arise at different locations, i.e at different rupa bases. Heart-base itself does not arise in the same place that eye-sense or 'finger' body-sense arises. They arise in different kalapas according to complex conditions. We could describe in ordinary language in detail the point of the finger where the body-consciousness taps the keyboard and experiences hardness. It would be for reference, correct sammuti sacca, to indicate that point of experiencing where that body-sense is. ... ... > Thanks for helping me to reflect on this topic. Thank you for some very precise indications of how "space" is used to indicate, not actual spatial locations, but the types of rupic arenas in which certain types of dhammas arise, eg, heart-base, and the ways in which different constituent rupas of a kalapa come together due to conditions, creating a sense of a spatial organization, but not actual objective physical space as we normally think of it. As I take your meaning, the extensiveness of space in which there is distance and other relations is missing from the spatiality of kalapas. The space that they contain is only the relationship between the various rupas to each other, and their relationship to the base in which they arise. In other words, there is no objective space in which this takes place, and there is no place to go from there. The space that is created by these relations is confined to the relations themselves. It is 100% local. I hope that is not too far off the mark. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125525 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:10 pm Subject: Re: rebirth anagami sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Han, Chew & all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? ... S: Yes, I understand this to be so. From some earlier comments I made: #99133 According to the B.Bodhi's Guide note in CMA (p.361): "A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill-will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as all greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. *It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non-returners are reborn there.*" S: I checked the commentary itself, but nothing there. In Bkk we also (briefly) discussed the five types on anagamis mentioned in the texts (as given in CMA p 362). When the Thai was also given and translated (the same), I believe I was told these were the 5 types who had attained jhaana. (The different accumulations). (I had wondered whether the asankhaaraparinibbaayi and sasankhaaraparinibbaayi might refer to those who had attained and had not attained jhaana, but was told this couldn't be so). K. Sujin also made a comment about how she has no interest in such details because they don't help with the development of the Path. Han & Chew, so glad to read your comments and to know you're following the list. Please do chip in and add comments anytime you feel inclined to do so. Metta Sarah ===== #125526 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: So did the Buddha teach us that there are realities (paramattha >dhamma) - "The All", concepts (pannatti) thought about and then >"experiential truth"? What is the Pali for this third category? > >=========================== > > As I remember, please correct me if I am wrong, Buddha has no where taught explicitly about "absolute" vs "conventional" truth. The first explicit teaching is in the commentaries, and different schools had different specific ideas what is absolute and what is conventional truth. ... S: The first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, begins by enumerating realities, dhammas - kusala, akusala, abyakatha (all paramattha dhammas other than kusala and akusala dhammas). Those dhammas not enumerated are not realities (paramattha dhammas). What you refer to as your third category, "experiential truth" falls under pannatti, concepts. See CMA or another translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, a summary of the Abhidhamma Pitaka for detail on this. ... > > Just because the Buddha has talked about people in one sutta and ayatanas in another, doesn't mean that any one is more "true" than the other. ... S: The Buddha made it clear that in reality, there are only the dhammas included in the "All". "People" are ideas that can only ever by thought about. ... > > In fact, it seems that "conventional" truth is what we mostly, if always, "live in". ... S: it is what we think about, the commonly accepted terms and conventional truths to "live in" with or without any understanding that they are conventional rather than absolute truths. .... > > Crosswalks, pedestrians, cars - do exist. Hunger, refridgerator, food, etc does exist. Fork has different function from a spoon. Etc. ... S: They all "exist" in a conventional sense only. In actuality, there are no crosswalks, cars or forks. ... > > >Cup does exist. > > ... > > S: We agree there are 6 doorways, right? Which doorway is cup >experienced? > >================================== > > Through at least two. Seeing + touching + recognizing it being a cup. ... S: Do you agree that seeing sees visible object, just that which is seen only? Do you agree that touching touches tangible object only, just that which is tangible - i.e. hardness/softness, temperature and pressure? Yes, sanna recognises such experiences and thinking identifies them based on past memories as being "a cup". So "cup" is only ever experienced through the mind door, recognised and thought about in the mind only. No cup is ever seen or touched in actuality. ... > >S: You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? ... > Yes, cup is experiential truth. What I believe is wrong is to ascribe permanence, ultimate happiness and thing-in-itself (atta) to a cup. ... S: When you say a cup, an "experiential truth" is anicca, dukkha and anatta, in fact you are ascribing the ti-lakkhana to concepts, to objects of thought, whereas the ti-lakkhana are the characteristics of all conditioned realities. See Jon's old message below elaborating on the various kinds of concepts and Scott's on the nature of impermanence of conditioned dhammas, the khandhas, only. Metta Sarah #3494 by Jonothan on concepts: An analysis of concepts. Ch. VIII of the Adhidhammattha Sangaha - in translation as `A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (CMA) - contains a detailed analysis of concepts. This section is included because, as mentioned in an earlier post in this series, concepts are included in the abhidhamma by the treatise `Puggala-pannatti'. Concepts are twofold (CMA #29 and Guide to #29): Concept as `that which is made known'; these are called `meaning concepts' or `concepts-as-meanings' (attha-pannatti), and Concept as `that which makes known': these are called `name concepts' or `concepts-as-names' (nama-pannatti). Meaning concepts `Meaning-concept' refers to the meaning conveyed by a concept. For example, the notion of a four-legged, furry domestic animal is the meaning-concept of the term `dog'. [CMA Guide to #29] Name-concepts `Name-concept' is a name or designation that conveys a meaning. For example, the designation and idea `dog' is the name-concept which corresponds to the meaning-concept given in the previous example. [CMA Guide to #29] Each of these 2 kinds of concepts can be further classified as follows There are 6 kinds of meaning concepts (CMA Guide to #30) - 1. Concepts which correspond to the form of things (eg, land, mountain) 2. Concepts which correspond to a collection or group of things (house, chariot, village) 3. Concepts which correspond to a locality or direction (east, west etc) 4, Concepts which correspond to periods or units of time (morning, noon, week etc) 5. Concepts which correspond to spatial regions void of perceptible matter (well, cave etc) 6. Concepts which correspond to the mental sign gained by meditative development (called nimitta-pannati) CMA #30 says: "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. They are called concepts because they are thought of and expressed on account of this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called because it is made known." There are also 6 kinds of name-concepts (CMA #31 & Guide to #31) - 1. A (direct) concept of the real. This refers to a concept that designates a reality, eg. `rupa', `feeling'. 2. A (direct) concept of the unreal. This refers to a term that conveys the meaning of a thing that is a conventional entity, not an ultimate reality, eg. `land' and `mountain'. 3. A concept of the unreal by means of the real. In the term `possessor of the sixfold direct knowledge', the direct knowledge are ultimately real but the `possessor' is a mental construction. 4. A concept of the real by means of the unreal. In the term `woman's voice', the sound of the voice ultimately exists but not the woman. 5. A concept of the real by means of the real. In the term `eye-consciousness', both the eye-sensitivity and the consciousness dependent on it exist in an ultimate sense. 6. A concept of the unreal by means of the unreal. In the term `king's son', neither the king nor the son ultimately exist. Concepts are the means by which meaning is understood- In the Summary section (CMA #32) it is explained: "By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly convention." To summarise: Although concepts are not real and cannot be the object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more about them, so that they are not taken for realities. **** #89205 by Scott on the impermanent nature of conditioned realities: SN 22 102(10) Perception of Impermanence At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence (aniccasa~n~naa) is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all lust for existence, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit 'I am'... "And how, bhikkhus, is the perception or impermanence developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots the conceit 'I am'? (*) 'Such is form, such is its origin, such is its passing away; such is feeling...such is perception...such are volitional formations... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away'; that is how the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots all conceit 'I am.'" *"...Iti ruupa.m iti ruupassa samudayo iti ruupassa atthagamo, iti vedanaa iti vedanaaya samudayo iti veda naaya atthagamo iti sa~n~naa iti sa~n~nassa samudayo iti sa~n~nassa atthagamo Iti sa"nkhaaraa iti sa.nkhaarassa samudayo iti sa"nkhaarassa atthagamo, iti vi~n~naa.na.m iti vi~n~naa.nassa samudayo iti vi~n~naa.nassa atthagamoti. Eva.m bhaavitaa kho bhikkhave, aniccasa~n~naa eva.m bahulikataa sabba.m kaamaraaga.m pariyaadiyataa, sabba.m ruuparaaga.m pariyaadiyati, sabba.m bhavaraaga.m pariyaadiyati, sabba.m avijja.m pariyaadiyati, sabba.m asmimaana.m pariyaadiyati, samuuhantiiti." ========= #125527 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Thanks for your helpful comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas > (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" > that are impermanent. > > You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not > paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these > "experiential truths"? > ============================= >H: Sarah, in MN 41 the Buddha taught the following: > > "It's by reason of this Dhamma conduct & harmonious conduct that some > beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the good > destinations, in the heavenly world." > > What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? ... S: The "break-up of the body" refers to the end of this life-time, to death (cuti citta) and the end of the rupas conditioned by the past kamma which has conditioned the kamma-produced rupas of this life-time, such as the life-faculty, masculinity/femininity, senses, heart-base and so on. So "body" is a conventional term referring to a large array of dhammas. ... And > if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? ... S: The namas and rupas involved are impermanent. It is these dhammas which arise and fall away. There is no "body", no "whole" apart from these dhammas. ... >As for what door the complex > called a body is known through, of course it is through the mind door and > no other. .. S: What we take for a "body" is just thought about through the mind door. Exactly. What the Buddha was referring to - all the various rupas - arise and fall away all the time. These rupas may be experienced through any of the doorways. ... >And its impermanence is, of course, derived from the arising and > ceasing of its elements. But still, the Buddha himself spoke of the body, > and he spoke of it breaking up. Fictions and concepts don't break up, do > they? ... S: Agreed. "Fictions and concepts don't break up". Rupas do, no matter how they are referred to. In the Buddha's case, without any misunderstanding, without any idea that what is commonly taken for a body actually exists. Metta Sarah ===== #125528 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:39 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >S: :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. > Any canonical source to support the opposite? ... S: The detail is all given in the ancient commentaries. As the Buddha said, whatever is "Budha vacana" is his teaching. For example, as I wrote before: >.....in the Atthasalini, Introductory discourse (PTS transl) it says: "Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa Moggalii's son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborated the Kathaavatthu to the extent of the Diigha Nikaaya, bringing together five hundred orthodox and five hundred heterodox Suttas. "So Tissa, Moggalii's son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha."< All the ancient commentaries as approved at the early councils by the Mahavihara Theras are "Buddha vacana", word of the Buddha. Here's a quote by I.B.Horner, which I've given before, from her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." **** Metta Sarah ==== #125529 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Of course, having said this, respect is in the citta. > > D: accompanied by which cetasika? I thought about absence of mana , however mana involves not only the conceit to be superior , but as well to be inferior . Probably it is the level of panna which determines kusala or akusala (?) ... S: Yes, panna is the key. We can refer to the respect as the sila, the behaviour by speech and deeds when paying respect to the Triple Gem. However, it depends on panna as to whether there can really be any refuge, any true respect for the Triple Gem, appreciating that no one but the Buddha could have taught us the Dhamma. If we just pay respect by tradition, there will be little confidence because there is little if any panna. It is only by developing right understanding of realities that understanding, confidence and true respect for the Triple Gem will develop. Here's a quote by K.Sujin from the Cambodia talks: "Sujin: Nobody forces you to develop understanding. Buddhists listen to the Dhamma because they take their refuge in the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, in the Dhamma and in the ariyan Sangha, the Community of the enlightened persons. All buddhists take their refuge in the Triple Gem. In what way are the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha of the enlightened persons a refuge? If someone says that he venerates the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, without studying the Dhamma and listening to it, is that true respect? At the time when the Buddha had not passed away buddhists would visit him wherever he dwellt, in order to listen to the Dhamma. They wanted to listen because they realized the excellence of the Dhamma and valued it as a treasure. The Buddha explained that whatever arises does so because of the appropriate conditions and that it then falls away. It is dukkha because it is impermanent. It depends on the individual who listens whether he agrees with this or not, whether he is interested to know this or not. However, it is necessary to study the Dhamma first so that one can understand that the Dhamma as explained by the Buddha is entirely true." ... > S:We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. > > D: rites and rituals are part of our social life . I think what makes the difference is whether it comes from the heart which I.M.H.O. has much to do with Brahma Vihara.. ... S: Panna and all the perfections. The brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object. So at moments of paying respect to the Buddha, there is aloha, adosa and aloha (if panna is arising), but not the brahma viharas. Metta can only arise in regard to thoughts of loving kindness towards living beings. ... > S:Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > > D: and even more if this understanding of reality , i.e. knowledge and clearseeing according to actuality , serves as condition for disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. ... S: Yes, whenever understanding arises, there is detachment and dispassion at such moments developing. Metta Sarah ======= #125530 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:34 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Hi Jon & Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > RE: Well of course they are creating the conditions for each next one, like dominoes, and thus have a very lawful and identifiable relationship from moment to moment. To say that this is not the case would be to ignore the obvious. > > =============== > > J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a steam, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). It is not said that the preceding citta in any sense *causes* (nor "creates the conditions for") the arising of the succeeding one; ... S: Except that by contiguity condition, anantara paccaya, the falling away of the preceding citta is itself the condition for the arising of the succeeding one. In this way it is one of the *causes* for the succeeding one. ... >there are other forces at play here, one of which is that there are certain fixed orders of cittas (Pali: niyama), for example, the order of cittas in a sense-door process. ... Metta Sarah ===== #125531 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary upasaka_howard Dear Nina & Lodewijk (and Sarah) - Please add my very best wishes to Sarah's. As you know, I consider you two to be a lovely couple, and I wish you years more of good life together and then continued loving existence with each other in this and other happy realms. With much metta, Howard In a message dated 7/14/2012 9:52:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Nina & Lodewijk, Our congratulations and very best wishes for your diamond wedding anniversary - 60 years of good and wise friendship and companionship together is a real blessing. "Even ornamented royal chariots wear out. So too the body reaches old age. But the Dhamma of the Good grows not old. Thus do the Good reveal it among the Good." Dhp 151, Narada transl) "Jiiranti ve raajarathaa sucittaa atho sariiram pi jara.m upeti Sata.m ca dhamma na jara.m upeti Santo have sabbhi pavedayanti." Metta and best wishes for continued wise and joyful companionship. Sarah & Jonothan ===================== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #125532 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/15/2012 3:51:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for your helpful comments. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas > (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" > that are impermanent. > > You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not > paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these > "experiential truths"? > ============================= >H: Sarah, in MN 41 the Buddha taught the following: > > "It's by reason of this Dhamma conduct & harmonious conduct that some > beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the good > destinations, in the heavenly world." > > What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? ... S: The "break-up of the body" refers to the end of this life-time, to death (cuti citta) and the end of the rupas conditioned by the past kamma which has conditioned the kamma-produced rupas of this life-time, such as the life-faculty, masculinity/femininity, senses, heart-base and so on. So "body" is a conventional term referring to a large array of dhammas. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes. An "array" is a collection/aggregate/group/complex of interrelated phenomena, but not a single thing and having no existence independent of its components. But it is certainly not nothing at all. -------------------------------------------------------- ... And > if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? ... S: The namas and rupas involved are impermanent. It is these dhammas which arise and fall away. There is no "body", no "whole" apart from these dhammas. --------------------------------------------------------- HCW: That is true. But the body/aggregate of rupas is still ever-changing in dependence on the arising and ceasing of its components, and it breaks up at death in dependence on the dispersal and cessation of its component rupas. ----------------------------------------------------------- ... >As for what door the complex > called a body is known through, of course it is through the mind door and > no other. .. S: What we take for a "body" is just thought about through the mind door. ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: That is true, but it does not mean that there is no basis for that in the relations among the component rupas. ------------------------------------------------------------ Exactly. What the Buddha was referring to - all the various rupas - arise and fall away all the time. These rupas may be experienced through any of the doorways. ... >And its impermanence is, of course, derived from the arising and > ceasing of its elements. But still, the Buddha himself spoke of the body, > and he spoke of it breaking up. Fictions and concepts don't break up, do > they? ... S: Agreed. "Fictions and concepts don't break up". Rupas do, no matter how they are referred to. In the Buddha's case, without any misunderstanding, without any idea that what is commonly taken for a body actually exists. ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: A rupa ceases but does not "break up". Only collections of phenomena break up. -------------------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125533 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary moellerdieter Dear Nina ( & Lodewijk ) I like to join Sarah and Howard who already put it so nicely : Happy Diamond wedding anniversary ! ( or , one may say: Happiness with your wandering! ) with Metta Dieter #125534 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:05 am Subject: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Hi Christine and Sarah, A while back I had written a letter to one of the Star Kids who asked me about the Iraq war. I had written that Saddam Hussein was a bad man who killed his own people and so the war was justified. Christine, appropriately, said that I was wrong and that I was being brainwashed by the American media. Now, with the assistance of YouTube, I have been able to review several videos of 9/11 and have concluded that the American people were duped into believing terrorists were responsible. Now, I see that it was an inside job and that the American government destroyed its own buildings and killed its own people to push wars against oil rich nations. If Bush can kill his own people, then he is no better than Saddam killing his own people- so I was wrong to say what I did to that Star Kid. So, I sincerely apologize to Christine and the Star Kids and ask that you remove that particular post from the recommended reading list (if it is still there). Thanks. Metta, James #125535 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:34 am Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > By the way, I really think you don't have to worry about being harassed by my from now on, I know and you know how often I have talked about leaving DSG for a good little while, but I really do feel the time has come, as I have said I have another religion I am interested in now. I like that old chestnut about "if you love someone set them free, if the love is true, they will return" or whatever it is. I am pretty confident that my connection to Dhamma will survive, but for now I am going in a different direction (with quite a few parallels to Dhamma) for awhile, to something I was interested in before Dhamma, it feels fresh now. And so Dhamma will feel fresh again someday. > > So not to worry, you are really into Dhamma, discussing a lot, feel at ease, I will not be lurking, ready to pounce. This one visit was in response to having seen that Dustrags series, that's all. Well, you may be gone by now, but in any case, take care - hope your path is a good one and works out well. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125536 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:57 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. Pt. 1. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: I don't think it's clear that this is the case. The Buddha spoke about many conventional actions and objects and included them as part of the path in his speech. He did not make the statement that he only spoke of such things for convenience and that only understanding dhammas constituted the path. It is a point of interpretation to assert this, not a point of fact. > > > > When the Buddha says that one should not drink alcohol because it clouds the mind, some would say that this is just a signpost for mental factors; others would say that it is a literal prohibition; and others would say that both the mental state and the action are important [that is what I would say.] It is not settled which of these three views most accurately reflect the Buddha's teaching, but it is clear that the third alternative is the one the Buddha followed in his way of addressing such issues. Since such a view does not contradict commentary, and does make most sense of the Buddha's own words, it is the alternative that I choose to adopt. > > =============== > > J: There is no doubt but that the Buddha encouraged the development of kusala of all kinds, and not just the development of panna. > > But `kusala' is a (purely) mental quality; not a characteristic of a conventional activity. Conventional activities cannot have directly experiencable characteristics. Perhaps, so, but you do not address my point - at least here, that an unwholesome activity *cannot* be undertaken by someone while in a kusala mental state. The kusala may not come from the action, but the action does come from the kusala, from the mental state. The action is not just beside the point, but is the expression of the kusala or akusala. A wholesome-seeming action can be ruined by an akusala mental state, but an unwholesome action cannot be corrected by a kusala mental state, I would say, in most cases. For instance, as I pointed out, one cannot murder someone while in a kusala mental state. One cannot engage in wrong speech while in a kusala mental state. So kusala does have expression and influence in conventional actions or restraint fro such actions, even though the action in and of itself is not the creator of the kusala. So perhaps you can address this point, and what its significance is? To me it means that there is a connection between kusala and conventional action, and that kusala precludes actions that are unwholesome by definition, according to the Buddha. A person cannot be drinking, smoking. cursing and beating their child while in a kusala mental state. It's just not going to happen. Kusala leads one in a wholesome direction in life as well as in mind. Would you not agree? > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. They are connected in that way, even though the kusala does not primarily reside in the action, but in the mental state. Still, there are actions that are inherently akusala and their relation to kusala is that the kusala will keep them from being carried out. A kusala mental state will not lead to a man mercilessly beating his horse. Would it ever? No. They cannot coincide because cruelly beating one's horse is inherently akusala in itself. > So when the Buddha speaks about conventionally kusala actions, he of course means that part of any action that is accompanied by kusala. My point is that there are actions that are inherently akusala, they cannot be kusala and cannot arise from or accompany kusala. And there are actions that will arise from kusala and they will be benign acts or they will be acts that are the result of kusala, or they will express the kusala. Washing the dishes is not especially good or evil, just a task, but if kusala is arising, the dishes will be washed in a benign and wholesome manner, so the kusala mental state influences and infiltrates the conventional action. They are not disassociated from each other. Have to go, but more later... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #125537 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:06 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. Pt. 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Furthermore, when the development of kusala (other than insight) is encouraged, it is generally in the context of the development of insight, that is to say, not just for its own sake. My point, though disputed, is that the other forms of kusala are necessary, not just desirable, to the development of insight. Without kusala, how can one have detachment, peacefulness and clarity? Without those, how can one have insight? If the defilements are buzzing like crazy, arising all the time, I would not expect much insight to develop. > > =============== > > RE: While I think that direct understanding is the ultimate fruit of the path, and while I think that enlightenment is a matter of the transformation of consciousness, I don't agree that the path is only constituted of understanding, but of all the factors that the Buddha spoke of. > > =============== > > J: The "ultimate fruit of the path" is surely enlightenment, with direct understanding (of dhammas) as its means. The Buddha gave an eightfold path. It is my contention that those eight factors have to be developed in their own right, not just through mental development alone. > > =============== > > > J: All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). > > > > RE: What I have in mind is considering intellectual understandings removed from conventional issues that occur in everyday life, such as one's work, behavior, relationships, and other life circumstances. > > =============== > > J: When talking about understanding in the context of the development of the path, we are talking about the understanding *of dhammas*, right? > > There is no such thing as the understanding of dhammas that is removed from everyday life. And conversely there is no situation in everyday life in which it is impossible for understanding of dhammas to arise (if conditions are appropriate). There is a difference between extracting the understand of dhammas from what is conventionally experienced, as though it finds no expression or demonstration in conventional experience at all, and seeing the activity of dhammas within the activities of everyday life, rather than removing them to a separate paramatha plane. I think there is quite a bit of dualism in most of our consideration of dhammas, divorcing them from what is experienced in life, which indeed is what most of us experience 24/7. Instead we see the theoretical arising of dhammas - little monads separate from experience - as more important than a mother beating a child or an alcoholic taking a drink. I think it's more worthwhile to understand the role of akusala dhammas in *those* events, rather than how they occur in an official theoretical series in a book. The book should lead us to understand how to view life-events correctly, not how to ignore them. In addition, there is a difference between seeing everyday life as nothing but an occasion for understanding dhammas, and seeing it as the ground of development of the eightfold path, with actual livelihood, speech, behavior, etc. being part of the development of the path. I think if we concentrate only on intellectual factors, we miss the development of kusala in everyday life. By the way, I would like to stress that when I argue for this, it is not an argument in my favor. I'm terrible at the development of kusala in everyday life, and I agree it's not something we can control. I still think it's necessary however, and that it's the right perspective to adopt. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #125538 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:13 am Subject: Re: Diamond wedding anniversary glenjohnann Dear Nina and Lodewijk I add my congratulations and best wishes to you both. Wonderful to have so many years of happiness, support and encouragement together and to be able to share in the blessings of the Dhamma while sharing the Dhamma with others as well. Wishing you more of the same. With metta Ann and Glen --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Nina & Lodewijk, > > Our congratulations and very best wishes for your diamond wedding anniversary - 60 years of good and wise friendship and companionship together is a real blessing. > > "Even ornamented royal chariots wear out. > > So too the body reaches old age. > > But the Dhamma of the Good grows not old. > > Thus do the Good reveal it among the Good." Dhp 151, Narada transl) > > "Jiiranti ve raajarathaa sucittaa > atho sariiram pi jara.m upeti > Sata.m ca dhamma na jara.m upeti > Santo have sabbhi pavedayanti." > > Metta and best wishes for continued wise and joyful companionship. > > Sarah & Jonothan > ===================== > > > > #125539 From: "Christine" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary christine_fo... Happy Diamond Anniversary! How joyously wonderful! May you have happy, peaceful years to come. with metta and respect, Chris #125540 From: han tun Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary hantun1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, I join Sarah and others in congratulating you for your very happy diamond wedding anniversary. with metta and respect, Han and Tin #125541 From: Vince Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear cerovzt Alberto wrote: >For it is simply the mere judgment that past formation have ceased, present ones are >ceasing, and future ones will cease.]...(Vis-ch.21 Nn transl). [..] > Also, the quote you posted follows a 'Before my enlightenment, while I was still a > bodhisatta...' statement, which explains why he was still experiencing (akusala) fear. thanks Alberto for the clarifications, best, Vince, #125542 From: Vince Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear cerovzt Hi Philip you wrote: > This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my > fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states > without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply > accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. disenchantment is needed to be aware of the first noble truth. I think this disenchantment is not falling in sadness but being aware of the trick operating in us, then one can understand the sensorial world is not a reliable source of happiness. > the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant > memtal states I think this is referred to those worldlings who ignore Dhamma, not us. Fear, hate, etc.. all them can be subdued in the present moment by the worldlings. There is not comfort in the world when dukkha is really strong. Subduing becomes powerful according detachment. My view is the present moment is like an island in where one can find refugee. Any person can be aware of this place when there is a flooding of unpleasant thoughts, emotions or feelings. In those moments one should rescue the present moment, and in that same instant one can check where they have gone. Just a short instant is enough to see the way, and anyone can check it. Because one can observe the poor stabilization of this situation and the speed of attachment to the mind contents, therefore the understanding of the situation is available. And from here all depends of everyone. We can read about many vipassana-stages, etc... Study and practice are needed to get understanding and detachment, although all can be fulfilled in a flash even without knowing many things. Not easy, not difficult. Nobody knows. best, Vince, #125543 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:44 pm Subject: Re: Diamond wedding anniversary philofillet Congratulations, Nina and Lodewijk. You have written and are continuing to write a splendid love story. Phil #125544 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear philofillet Hi Vince > > disenchantment is needed to be aware of the first noble truth. I think this disenchantment > is not falling in sadness but being aware of the trick operating in us, then one can > understand the sensorial world is not a reliable source of happiness. Yes, disenchantment when all is going well, that. Ironic that it is pleasant vipaka rather than harsh vipaka that drags us deeper into infatuation and intoxication. > > > the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant > > memtal states > > I think this is referred to those worldlings who ignore Dhamma, not us. Fear, hate, etc.. > all them can be subdued in the present moment by the worldlings. Ph: Well, I'm not convinced about that, I think there are many deeply accumulated, lobha-rooted keaps of the mibd to comfort for us, but my (so to speak) saddha is running on very low gear these days. V: There is not comfort in > the world when dukkha is really strong. > ph: Right, we want out of that first degree of obvious dukkha. (dukkha dukkha?) > Subduing becomes powerful according detachment. My view is the present moment is like an > island in where one can find refugee. Any person can be aware of this place when there is > a flooding of unpleasant thoughts, emotions or feelings. In those moments one should > rescue the present moment, and in that same instant one can check where they have gone. ph: Well, I am all for this as part of the "empowerment" I get from my new-age pop psychology but I have a hunch that when it comes to a strict understanding of Dhamma "rescuing the present moment" (which I like to do through meditation, and I like that term) is all about lobha. But again, it could well be that my lack of saddha about householders really gettung to the core of tge Dhamma in a kusala way us obstructing me. That could very well change in the future. I will have to stop there Vince, thanks. Tough to tap this out on the iphone, there has been virya for a few kusala moments! sorry if there are lots of typos. Phil > Just a short instant is enough to see the way, and anyone can check it. Because one can > observe the poor stabilization of this situation and the speed of attachment to the mind > contents, therefore the understanding of the situation is available. And from here all > depends of everyone. > We can read about many vipassana-stages, etc... Study and practice are needed to get > understanding and detachment, although all can be fulfilled in a flash even without > knowing many things. Not easy, not difficult. Nobody knows. > > > best, > > > Vince, > #125545 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:18 pm Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Hello Rob E Still here because I am in danger of losing connection to Dhamma but I will not be harassing you. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > By the way, I really think you don't have to worry about being harassed by my from now on, I know and you know how often I have talked about leaving DSG for a good little while, but I really do feel the time has come, as I have said I have another religion I am interested in now. I like that old chestnut about "if you love someone set them free, if the love is true, they will return" or whatever it is. I am pretty confident that my connection to Dhamma will survive, but for now I am going in a different direction (with quite a few parallels to Dhamma) for awhile, to something I was interested in before Dhamma, it feels fresh now. And so Dhamma will feel fresh again someday. > > > > So not to worry, you are really into Dhamma, discussing a lot, feel at ease, I will not be lurking, ready to pounce. This one visit was in response to having seen that Dustrags series, that's all. > > Well, you may be gone by now, but in any case, take care - hope your path is a good one and works out well. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - > #125546 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary epsteinrob Dear Nina and Lodewijk. I am joining in with Han's email to wish you great congratulations also. A very lovely occasion! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina and Lodewijk, > > I join Sarah and others in congratulating you for your very happy diamond wedding anniversary. > > with metta and respect, > > Han and Tin > #125547 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hello Rob E > > Still here because I am in danger of losing connection to Dhamma but I will not be harassing you. Thanks for writing. If you are here to stay connected to Dhamma, I am very happy about that. I hope you get the insight and understanding that you need. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125548 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Hi James and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > A while back I had written a letter to one of the Star Kids who asked me about the Iraq war. I had written that Saddam Hussein was a bad man who killed his own people and so the war was justified. Christine, appropriately, said that I was wrong and that I was being brainwashed by the American media. > > Now, with the assistance of YouTube, I have been able to review several videos of 9/11 and have concluded that the American people were duped into believing terrorists were responsible. Now, I see that it was an inside job and that the American government destroyed its own buildings and killed its own people to push wars against oil rich nations. If Bush can kill his own people, then he is no better than Saddam killing his own people- so I was wrong to say what I did to that Star Kid. > > So, I sincerely apologize to Christine and the Star Kids and ask that you remove that particular post from the recommended reading list (if it is still there). Thanks. Though I don't think we're here to have a political debate, I think it's worthwhile to say that I do not believe the conspiracy theories about 911 being an 'inside job' at all. I'm from New York and my parents saw the World Trade Center buildings come down from their window. I also have friends who were nearby and experienced it close up. There is no evidence of any kind that the US government flew the planes into the buildings or that it was blown up from inside. And I am no fan of GW Bush. I do think he and Dick Cheney faked their way into the war in Iraq, but 9/11 was produced by Al Queda, and they were and are a real organization. My wife who works here in Washington, D.C. was able to see the Pentagon on fire from her office at the U.S. State Department. Friends in the government were there in the Pentagon when the plane hit and experienced the fires, saw their co-workers die, etc. There was no 'inside knowledge' that any of this was going to happen. Anyway, as I said, I am no fan of the Bush Administration. I think they ignored warnings that this was going to happen and responded to it in many incorrect ways, but I think it's a big mistake to announce as a fact that it was an "inside job" and that the American government would kill so many of its own people without getting caught. That's going a bit too far. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125549 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apology to Christine and a Request moellerdieter Hi RobE you wrote: That's going a bit too far. D: a bit too much of an understatement .. with Metta Dieter #125550 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:1.Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a >paramattha dhamma or a concept? > >============================= > > It is experiential truth. I don't want to drive into a tree at 100 km/h. ... S: As discussed yesterday, what you refer to as 'experiential truth" are all concepts. You seem to be stuck with the idea that if the understanding develops of realities, paramattha dhammas, as taught by the Buddha, that this means you'll "drive into a tree at 100 km/h". The Buddha didn't go round bumping into trees and understanding realities doesn't mean any of us will be driving into trees. This is a complete misunderstanding of satipatthana. ... > If one is hungry, one opens the fridge and eats. Spoon has different function from a knife. If one is thirsty, one drinks water. Cup does exist. ... S: Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. ... > > >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? > >============================ > > Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. ... S: You are saying the "fridge" is inconstant and will fall apart and that we cannot base our understanding on it. Is this the Teaching we need to hear from a Buddha? Metta Sarah ==== #125551 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > You have had good examples with birds, who also btw, chirp outside and the hearing is not due to "me choosing to hear" but due to impersonal conditions. ... S: In reality, just hearing of sounds, followed by thinking about "chirping birds". Yes, hearing, like all other conditioned realities arises due to "impersonal conditions" - no "me choosing" at all. Glad we agree on this. ... > > As for reflecting, and considering, do you think it is good to read over and over again some inspiring passages on anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta? ... S: I'd like to stress that there is no rule at all. it is the wise considering, the understanding that is important no matter the activity. Some will read such passages with understanding, some with ignorance. Same now when there is the hearing of sounds. What we might find helpful is not for everyone. ... > I do agree regarding accumulation of conditions so that good states naturally arise. But even then, -> > > 1)what is the role of present intention? ... S: Just as you said above: "the hearing is not due to "me choosing to hear" but due to impersonal conditions." Same applies to intention and all conditioned dhammas. When the citta is kusala, the cetana is also kusala. When the citta is akusala, the cetana is akusala. Take the reading of the dhamma passage on the ti-lakkhana - if there is wise considering, the cetana is wholesome. If there is attachment to understanding or to the words, the cetana is unwholesome. ... > > 2)Is thinking "Things are conditioned, no control, so whatever akusala happens, let akusala happen" is itself another condition for more akusala and thus, is wrong? ... S: it depends what is meant by "let akusala happen". Sounds suspect. Understanding akusala that has arisen now is just a conditioned dhamma, not-self, is right. ... > > 3) Should one try to be good in the present, even though this is fully conditioned, and whatever happens is due to conditions. ... S: Usually "trying to be good" means not understanding anatta, conditioned dhammas. However, it may just be a manner of speech as when one tells a child to 'be good" or reminds a friend here not to regret or be afraid, for example. Only the understanding can know at this moment. ... > > I prefer to communicate through postings like here. ... S: That's fine. I do as well. Just a thought as you may not have opportunities for live dhamma discussions as some of us do. Metta Sarah ===== #125552 From: "Christine" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > A while back I had written a letter to one of the Star Kids who asked me about the Iraq war. I had written that Saddam Hussein was a bad man who killed his own people and so the war was justified. Christine, appropriately, said that I was wrong and that I was being brainwashed by the American media. > > Metta, > James > Hello James, It must have been quite some time ago - can you (or anyone) give a link to that thread please? with metta Chris #125553 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apology to Christine and a Request sarahprocter... Hi Chris, >________________________________ > From: Christine >It must have been quite some time ago - can you (or anyone) give a link to that thread please? .... S: see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20582 and messages by James, you and others following it in the thread. James, don't worry - I'm sure that reply of yours wasn't one of the good ones saved in UP 'teaching Dhamma to children". Metta Sarah ===== #125554 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: When there is understanding of ignorance now, there is also understanding of past ignorance and future ignorance. When there is understanding of attachment now as anatta, there is understanding that past attachment is like this and future attachment will also be like this. So by understanding dhammas now, there is an understanding of momentary death. At the end of this lifetime, conditioned dhammas arising and passing away like now. > > > D: Not cleasr to me what you mean. Ignorance/avijja is defined by not knowing the 4 Noble Truths. How can you understand what you still do not fully know and only get by deepest penetration/path training ? ... S: Such understanding has to develop gradually. For example, the 1st NT refers to the unsatisfactory nature of impermanent, conditioned dhammas. So by beginning to understanding seeing, visible object, other realities now, there is the beginning of understanding the truths, the beginning of overcoming ignorance. The first vipassana nana is the clear comprehension of namas and rupas. It has to begin now, ... > To understand the reality (the All) now one needs to have established the foundation of mindfulness (Satipatthana) .. and to understand what is beyond the All, one practises Jhana. I.e. the 7th and 8th step as part of the (sila-)-samadhi training are the means to develop understanding (panna) ... S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. ... > > D.O. can be understood to refer to lifetimes (samsara) and to the process going on here and now.. > The chain of D.O. is not interrupted ..when there is death there is birth , at least until the chain is not broken. > To use a metaphor with cards :game over, the cards are newly shuffled ..starting again with different cards but with the same system.. > > I like to emphasise the misunderstanding that avijja and sankhara ( first and second ) has been finalized / belong to the previous life , they belong to inumerable previous moments .. we possibly agree on that.. (?) .... S: Avijja and sankhara accumulated in past lifetimes conditioned birth and subsequent vipaka cittas during this life-time. Avijja and sankhara arising now, accumulating now will condition further kamma and further results, vipaka, in future, including future births. There are 3 rounds of vipaka cittas, kusala/akusala cittas and kamma....round and round and round. Metta Sarah ===== #125555 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: S: :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. > Any canonical source to support the opposite? ... S: The detail is all given in the ancient commentaries. As the Buddha said, whatever is "Budha vacana" is his teaching. For example, as I wrote before: >.....in the Atthasalini, Introductory discourse (PTS transl) it says: "Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa Moggalii's son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborated the Kathaavatthu to the extent of the Diigha Nikaaya, bringing together five hundred orthodox and five hundred heterodox Suttas. "So Tissa, Moggalii's son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha."< D: just additional conc. Kathaavatthu (Wiki excerpt) : The inclusion of the Kathavatthu in the Abhidhamma Pitaka has sometimes been thought of as something of an anomaly. First, the book is not regarded as being the words of the Buddha himself - its authorship is traditionally attributed to Moggaliputta Tissa. However this is not unusual: the Vinaya's accounts of the first two Councils are obviously also not the Buddha's actual words.[6] Second, the subject matter of the Kathavatthu differs substantially from that of the other texts in the Abhidhamma - but this is true of the Puggalapannatti as well.Scholars sometimes also point to the inclusion of some obviously later (relatively new) sections of the Kathavatthu in the Tipitaka as an indication that the Pali Canon was more 'open' than has sometimes been thought, and as illustrative of the process of codifying new texts as canonical. In fact this too is not unusual, there being quite a bit of relatively late material in the Canon S:All the ancient commentaries as approved at the early councils by the Mahavihara Theras are "Buddha vacana", word of the Buddha . Here's a quote by I.B.Horner, which I've given before, from her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." **** D: well I don't doubt that 'The commentaries are the armour and protection against deterioration' assumed of course nothing new is added . I don't even exclude the possibility that the heart base plays a certain role in telepathy , though I do not believe it.. so far ;-) You are stating " When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " But , Sarah , is this is not your interpretatation without canonical support ? ( relying - as I understand- only on a special passage of Vis M. ) Let us recall the authority .. ( Maha parinibbana sutta ,translated by Sister Vajira & Francis Story): Four Great References 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord." 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." footnote 37:In the earlier edition of this work, mahapadesa was rendered as "great authorities." It is now known that the proper meaning of apadesa is not "authority," but "reference" or "source." Besides, from the passage it is clear that there are only two real "authorities" - the Discourses (Suttas) and the Discipline (Vinaya). unquote with Metta Dieter #125556 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:04 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:You are saying the "fridge" is inconstant and will fall apart >and >that we cannot base our understanding on it. Is this the >Teaching >we need to hear from a Buddha? >====================================== All things are inconstant and because of that cannot give constant happiness. I believe that things that are most directly visible here and now are more important. I also think that Buddha's analysis into elements is not meant to be taken metaphysically "things don't exist". Rather, I believe, it denies their unity and constancy. Something that is made of parts, can break apart - anicca. Buddha, IMHO, denied the existence of one singular-inner-core called Atta. He did not deny the empirical world of people and things. >S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. >==================================== It seems to me that holding idea that some things don't exist, and then using them as if they exist, is a bit too problematic, don't you think? I believe that "conceptual" objects are on the same level as "ultimate" objects in sense that they are anicca, dukkha, anatta, and can be objects of satipatthana. In satipatthana sutta, 31 bodyparts are objects of satipatthana! With best wishes, Alex #125557 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Christine), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > >________________________________ > > From: Christine > > >It must have been quite some time ago - can you (or anyone) give a link to that thread please? > .... > S: see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20582 > and messages by James, you and others following it in the thread. > > James, don't worry - I'm sure that reply of yours wasn't one of the good ones saved in UP 'teaching Dhamma to children". > Okay, thanks for letting me know. Metta, James #125558 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Though I don't think we're here to have a political debate, I think it's worthwhile to say that I do not believe the conspiracy theories about 911 being an 'inside job' at all. I'm from New York and my parents saw the World Trade Center buildings come down from their window. I also have friends who were nearby and experienced it close up. There is no evidence of any kind that the US government flew the planes into the buildings or that it was blown up from inside. And I am no fan of GW Bush. I do think he and Dick Cheney faked their way into the war in Iraq, but 9/11 was produced by Al Queda, and they were and are a real organization. My wife who works here in Washington, D.C. was able to see the Pentagon on fire from her office at the U.S. State Department. Friends in the government were there in the Pentagon when the plane hit and experienced the fires, saw their co-workers die, etc. There was no 'inside knowledge' that any of this was going to happen. > > Anyway, as I said, I am no fan of the Bush Administration. I think they ignored warnings that this was going to happen and responded to it in many incorrect ways, but I think it's a big mistake to announce as a fact that it was an "inside job" and that the American government would kill so many of its own people without getting caught. That's going a bit too far. > I think that everything that happens in life is related to the Dhamma. There is no subject outside of the Dhamma. For example, in the Kalama Sutta the people of Kalama were very confused because several holy men had come through town and they each taught something different, and they each claimed that they alone were right. The Buddha taught the Kalamas: Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html#kal Rob E, it sounds like you have formed your opinion based on the opinion of others and not your own experience. I did the same thing before I reviewed all the evidence I wasn't exposed to before. If you thoroughly research this subject, ponder it on your own without outside influence, and still come to the same conclusion- fair enough. But you owe it to yourself to not believe others in this regard (or any regard, really). Metta, James #125559 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:42 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request truth_aerator Hello James, all, Did you read this? Is this true? The Official Version of 9/11 goes something like this Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes And hangover or not, they manage to give the world's most sophisticated air defense system the slip Unphased by leaving their "How to Fly a Passenger Jet" guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically through their own mass at free-fall speed, for the first time in history. Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI Meanwhile down in Washington Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world's most heavily defended building all without a single shot being fired. or ruining the nicely mowed lawn and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana Further south in Florida President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read "My Pet Goat" [with] a class full of primary school children shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger In New York World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the `New Pearl Harbor' catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports http://spktruth2power.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/official-911-fairy-tale/ ============================================================== With best wishes, Alex #125560 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:48 am Subject: grow disenchanted with stress moellerdieter Dear all, I stumbled upon following verses ( Dhammapada 277-279 ) "Sabbe sakhr anicc'ti; yad paya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiy. Sabbe sakhr dukkh'ti; yad paya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiy. Sabbe dhamm anatt'ti; yad paya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiy." - When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are inconstant' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are stressful' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. (translated By Thanissaro Bhikkhu ) ' Grow disentchanted with stress' ? Sounds to me rather strange . Who needs that ? Of course we want to get rid of it , usually looking for a replacement with the pleasant , the main troublemaker ( kama tanha or lobha , i.e. the craving for sensual pleasure ). So it is lust we need to grow disenchanted with , contrary to the statement, isn't it? The translation seems to be correct (nibbindati acc. to PTS : to be disgusted with,dissatisfied with, fed up). Not assuming an error , I suppose , the saying is taken out of context .. ( sutta source ? ) But perhaps I misunderstand .. (?) with Metta Dieter #125561 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:21 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello James, all, > > Did you read this? Is this true? That is a satirical account of the impossibility of the official version of events. They are all true. My favorites are how two planes imploded three buildings and that after hitting the Pentagon, the responsible plane simply disappeared (Yes, that is what happened. The French did a study but America didn't). Like the Buddha said, we should learn to know things from our own efforts, not by what others tell us to be true. Metta, James > > The Official Version of 9/11 goes something like this > > Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah > > Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes > > And hangover or not, they manage to give the world's most sophisticated air defense system the slip > > Unphased by leaving their "How to Fly a Passenger Jet" guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely > > Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically through their own mass at free-fall speed, for the first time in history. > > Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI > > Meanwhile down in Washington > > Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing > > Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little > > Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world's most heavily defended building > > all without a single shot being fired. or ruining the nicely mowed lawn and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video > > Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania > > So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later > > And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana > > Further south in Florida > > President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read "My Pet Goat" [with] a class full of primary school children shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger > > In New York > > World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously > > While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the `New Pearl Harbor' catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination > > And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports > http://spktruth2power.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/official-911-fairy-tale/ > ============================================================== > > With best wishes, > > Alex > #125562 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Dear Deiter I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha. Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha. You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma thanks KC From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, 17 July 2012, 23:48 >Subject: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear all, > >I stumbled upon following verses ( Dhammapada 277-279 ) > >"Sabbe sa khârâ aniccâ'ti; >yadâ paññâya passati >atha nibbindati dukkhe >esa maggo visuddhiyâ. > >Sabbe sa khârâ dukkhâ'ti; >yadâ paññâya passati >atha nibbindati dukkhe >esa maggo visuddhiyâ. > >Sabbe dhammâ anattâ'ti; >yadâ paññâya passati >atha nibbindati dukkhe >esa maggo visuddhiyâ." > >- > >When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are inconstant' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are stressful' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. (translated By Thanissaro Bhikkhu ) > >' Grow disentchanted with stress' ? Sounds to me rather strange . Who needs that ? Of course we want to get rid of it , usually looking for a replacement with the pleasant , the main troublemaker ( kama tanha or lobha , i.e. the craving for sensual pleasure ). > >So it is lust we need to grow disenchanted with , contrary to the statement, isn't it? > >The translation seems to be correct (nibbindati acc. to PTS : to be disgusted with,dissatisfied with, fed up). > >Not assuming an error , I suppose , the saying is taken out of context .. ( sutta source ? ) > >But perhaps I misunderstand .. (?) > >with Metta Dieter > >> > > > > #125563 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:32 am Subject: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya philofillet Dear group Lying here unable to sleep, conspiracy theory fever throwing me around my bed. Did I $really$ read those posts or did the government plant them in my brain by remote controlled brain boring drones to further distance me from the Dhamma as part of a JudeoChristan conspiracy to reimpose JC order in the world? Emergency Dhamma Injection! Open a Zolag book at random and post: "The Paali term for faculty is "indriya" meaning strength, governing or controlling principle. Indriyas are "leaders" for the associated dhammas, they are leaders each in their own field. In case of indriya-paccaya the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditiong dhammas (paacayupanna dhammas). (end of injection) phil #125564 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress moellerdieter Dear KC, I agree with you that the usage of stress isn't exactly brilliant , but then there is no consensus understanding about which translation is. However regardless of the translation, my point is uncertainty in respect to 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' , i.e. already with the Pali text. with Metta Dieter ..----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress Dear Deiter I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha. Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha. You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma thanks KC #125565 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:22 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > Rob E, it sounds like you have formed your opinion based on the opinion of others and not your own experience. I did the same thing before I reviewed all the evidence I wasn't exposed to before. If you thoroughly research this subject, ponder it on your own without outside influence, and still come to the same conclusion- fair enough. But you owe it to yourself to not believe others in this regard (or any regard, really). My opinion is not based on the opinion of others, but on everything I saw and heard, including many first-hand accounts. I saw the buildings go down on television as well, and saw the planes hit. So actually you need to have a contrary theory to what appears on its face to be very obvious, in order to conceive of a conspiracy about how this happened. To me it makes perfect sense - a plane full of fuel hits a building and penetrates it. The fuel explodes and melts the steel. The building goes down. If someone makes up another explanation that is the counter-explanation, and is not the obvious one that appears to the senses and to common sense. Bin Laden took credit for the attack - was he lying? Was he working for the CIA? You really have to get pretty far out to reconstruct the events in another way. As for the Pentagon, hit at the same time, do you think that was blown up from inside as well? It doesn't make a lot of sense. What about the plane that was brought down in Pennsylvania. Was that invented too? It was a coordinated attack with several planes, and those who were flying them are known. They were trained by Al Queda and their plans have been uncovered and show how they carried out the attack. So why the conspiracy theory? My way of looking at evidence, like the advice to the Kalamas, is to believe the obvious unless there is evidence that better explains the known facts. This situation, which was preceded by similar attacks overseas by Al Queda, is fairly self-evident in my view. Keep in mind that I am an adamant critic of the war in Iraq which had nothing to do with 911 at all, and an equally adamant critic of the Bush Administration and just about everything they did. But that doesn't make 911 into a U.S. conspiracy. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #125566 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:27 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > That is a satirical account of the impossibility of the official version of events. They are all true. My favorites are how two planes imploded three buildings and that after hitting the Pentagon, the responsible plane simply disappeared (Yes, that is what happened. The French did a study but America didn't). We know people who were in the Pentagon when the plane hit, and who survived the explosion and the fires. The plane was real and you are making stuff up. There are many many witnesses to the buildings being hit and going down in New York. My parents saw the planes hit from their window, as they lived not far from the World Trade Center and had a full view of what happened. Have you ever seen a plane explode? The amount of fuel in a moving plane creates an enormous explosion on impact. It's not the first time that a crashing plane blew up a house or building. Anyway, I will leave it there. As I said, my family and people we know personally saw both events take place. It's not something we read in the news. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125567 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:29 am Subject: Re: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear group > > Lying here unable to sleep, conspiracy theory fever throwing me around my bed. Did I $really$ read those posts or did the government plant them in my brain by remote controlled brain boring drones to further distance me from the Dhamma as part of a JudeoChristan conspiracy to reimpose JC order in the world? Emergency Dhamma Injection! Open a Zolag book at random and post: > > "The Paali term for faculty is "indriya" meaning strength, governing or controlling principle. Indriyas are "leaders" for the associated dhammas, they are leaders each in their own field. In case of indriya-paccaya the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditiong dhammas (paacayupanna dhammas). "Don't trust leaders - watch the parking meters!" - Bob Dylan - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125568 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:41 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request christine_fo... Hello all, A 26 minute video of the 9/11 Attack taken from a neighbouring building: http://www.dangeroustalk.net/a-team/911 with metta and karuna, Chris #125569 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:28 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Hi Robert E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > I just wanted to fix a problem with the Star Kids; and while I believe everything is within the Dhamma, too much of this and poor Phil won't get a wink of sleep! :-) This dialogue is starting to seriously veer off-topic. You should write to me off-list if you want to discuss it further. Thanks. Metta, James #125570 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:49 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Hi James. No problem - I agree we've said enough on this. Now on to the "Dhamma" Dhamma! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > I just wanted to fix a problem with the Star Kids; and while I believe everything is within the Dhamma, too much of this and poor Phil won't get a wink of sleep! :-) This dialogue is starting to seriously veer off-topic. You should write to me off-list if you want to discuss it further. Thanks. ====================== #125571 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:24 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125486) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > RE: In conventional life one cannot be clear-headed and mindful while drunk. Drunkenness is a physical factor that affects mental factors. Meditation may be seen as a "worldly" activity that affects mental factors. It is this sort of combination of factors both purely mental and conventional that is more multi-dimensional than only thinking about arising mental factors as though there are no other correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding. > =============== J: I agree that the Buddha did speak of other "correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding". The most frequently mentioned of these seems to be hearing the Dhamma explained in a way that this appropriate for our current circumstances. This is described in a number of ways, including `hearing the True Dhamma' or `the voice of another', and is also reflected in the fact that a person of well-developed understanding is sometimes referred to by the description `bahusutta' (literally, `one who has heard much'). From the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of MN43: *********************************** "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another [Pali: parato ghosa] and wise attention [Pali: yoniso manasikara]." Notes: "MA: 'The voice of another' (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path." *********************************** (Quoted by Sarah at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/94665) > =============== > RE: I still have never seen a statement quoted from commentary that suggested that we should ignore conventional reality in favor of pure mental factors. > =============== J: I've never suggested that conventional reality should be ignored (in fact, I can't even imagine what that would mean!). What I've said is that only moments of satipatthana constitute the actual development of the path; moments of other (lesser) kusala do not. This is not to say that other (lesser) kusala is to be `ignored'. On the contrary, all kusala is to be developed. But the development of the path, the highest form of kusala, is the kusala that leads to the perfection of all other kusala and to escape from samsara; without the development of satipatthana, other kinds of kusala contribute to continued existence in samsara. > =============== > RE: I think the and/and argument makes much more sense of the teachings in sutta and commentary that I have seen [admittedly very incomplete] than the either/or approach to dhammas vs. conventional realities. When Rob K. asserts that there is a relationship between kusala and abstention from 'conventional murder' that makes more sense to me than Scott's view that murder is seen to not exist when one is enlightened and therefore doesn't carry any kamma, since there are no beings. > =============== J: I don't recall any member of this list expressing the view which you attribute here to Scott (and which contains an inconsistency in that it contemplates an enlightened person deliberately killing another being). In any event, it certainly doesn't represent my own view. > =============== > RE: I have yet to see a single commentarial statement, let alone the "teachings as a whole" declare that we should not be concerned with such conventional behaviors and activities and only be concerned with pure understanding of dhammas. > =============== J: As mentioned above, I've never suggested that the development of other kusala should be ignored, or that other kusala is unimportant; only that we should be clear on the point that it is satipatthana -- and nothing else -- that constitutes the development of the path. Jon #125572 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:49 pm Subject: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (Part II, Citta) 1 philofillet Dear Group I have been selecting and posting passages from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanake but have found myself unable to remove passages from the superb survey of the Citta (Part II) because it all ties together so perfectly. I will now begin to post the entire Part II. (As we know, PArt III on Concepts and Realities was published as a separate book, I think Part II would make a great book as well, though too lengthy since it takes up about half of SPD, I guess.) Anyways, here we go: __________________________________ We read in the Kindred Sayings (Part 1, Ch. I.7, The 'Over-Under` Suttas, 2, The Heart [Citta];1979 edition) that a deva asked: Now what is that whereby the world is led? And what is that whereby it [is drawn along]? And what is that above all other things That bringeth everything under its sway? The Buddha answered: [Cittas] are that whereby the world is led, And by... [cittas] it is ever drawn along, And [citta] it is above all other things That bringeth everything under its sway. This sutta shows us the power of citta. Citta is an element that experiences something, a reality that experiences an object. It is the 'chief', the leader in knowing the object that appears. Footnote - Citta is accompanied by cetasikas (mental factors) which also experience the object, but citta is the leader in congnising the object. (end of passage) Phil #125573 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:14 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I agree that the Buddha did speak of other "correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding". That is helpful to hear. > The most frequently mentioned of these seems to be hearing the Dhamma explained in a way that this appropriate for our current circumstances. Of course that is very important. ... > J: I've never suggested that conventional reality should be ignored (in fact, I can't even imagine what that would mean!). What I've said is that only moments of satipatthana constitute the actual development of the path; moments of other (lesser) kusala do not. I agree. I guess the unresolved question is whether the other "conventional" factors that are often discussed, such as right action, right speech, etc., are supportive conditions for the development of satipatthana, as I think they are, or whether they are just "general kusala" with no real affect on understanding. > This is not to say that other (lesser) kusala is to be `ignored'. On the contrary, all kusala is to be developed. But the development of the path, the highest form of kusala, is the kusala that leads to the perfection of all other kusala and to escape from samsara; without the development of satipatthana, other kinds of kusala contribute to continued existence in samsara. I think that we agree that without satipatthana, the rest comes to not much, or at least not enough. > > =============== > > RE: I think the and/and argument makes much more sense of the teachings in sutta and commentary that I have seen [admittedly very incomplete] than the either/or approach to dhammas vs. conventional realities. When Rob K. asserts that there is a relationship between kusala and abstention from 'conventional murder' that makes more sense to me than Scott's view that murder is seen to not exist when one is enlightened and therefore doesn't carry any kamma, since there are no beings. > > =============== > > J: I don't recall any member of this list expressing the view which you attribute here to Scott (and which contains an inconsistency in that it contemplates an enlightened person deliberately killing another being). I'm pretty sure I did not misinterpret his view. He said that in the story of the blind monk who had no negative kamma for stepping on the caterpillars, that the reason he had no blame for killing the caterpillars is that he was enlightened and knew that there were no beings that could be killed. Conclusion: stepping on caterpillars is cool if you're enlightened. > In any event, it certainly doesn't represent my own view. Thanks for making that clear. I would not think that was your view. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125574 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:24 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thanks for explaining this to me again. -------- <. . . > > S: <. . .> The eye-sense similarly must have arisen before the eye-door process cittas arise to experience visible object. Without the eye-sense - the door through which they all experience the object - there could be no experiencing of visible object. So, it remains the door, an ayatana for the whole process, even though it is only the base or support for the seeing consciousness itself. (A tricky area). Again it falls away at the end of the process, max 17 cittas. -------- KH: I was forgetting that `sense base' and `sense door' were essentially the same thing. Otherwise I would have realised that a sense base must always last for the full number of cittas arising at that door. One of the tricky areas is when there are no rupas, isn't it? In the arupa realm I think the bhavanga citta becomes the base/door of mind consciousness. I might have got that wrong too, but that's where I got the impression that a sense door could have been some kind of nama. --------- <. . .> S: I think neither of those. If the rupa involved is too far gone by the time the arrest bhavanga citta arises, there cannot be a full sense door process for obvious reasons. This doesn't mean that the rupa was not strong, just that it was experienced too late. Sometimes also, there are no tadarammana cittas at the end of the process. --------- KH: Now that you mention it I am beginning to remember that too. But I wonder why it was "experienced too late." . . . This is your lucky day! After a two-day delay, during which I was suffering from a head cold (not a good thing on holidays), I reread my email and deleted a long paragraph of uninformed theorising. So you won't have to wade through my explanations of sense door processes that begin too late. ---------------- >> KH: My theory was <. . .> >> So why would we assume the sense base rupas last 17 moments? >> > S: Maybe because they do!! ------- KH: :-) Yes, well, I am beginning to see that now! ----------- <. . .> > S: As Nina wrote in a recent message in the Vism series: "When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door." ----------- KH: That's clear thank you. Although just to make sure: when Nina said the cittas of a complete sense-door process "and" the preceding bhavanga-cittas were seventeen in number, she meant "and" in the sense of "including" didn't she? Otherwise I am back where I started. :-) Ken H #125575 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125573) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I agree. I guess the unresolved question is whether the other "conventional" factors that are often discussed, such as right action, right speech, etc., are supportive conditions for the development of satipatthana, as I think they are, or whether they are just "general kusala" with no real affect on understanding. > =============== J: Given that these other factors are mentioned in the context of the Noble Eightfold Path, they must be relevant to the development of satipatthana. However, we disagree on the question of whether they are "conventional" factors or are mental factors that accompany the moment of path consciousness. > =============== > RE: I think that we agree that without satipatthana, the rest comes to not much, or at least not enough. > =============== J: Quite so. But 'the rest' is still very important to develop. Jon #125576 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Dear Sarah, S: Such understanding has to develop gradually. For example, the 1st NT refers to the unsatisfactory nature of impermanent, conditioned dhammas. So by beginning to understanding seeing, visible object, other realities now, there is the beginning of understanding the truths, the beginning of overcoming ignorance. The first vipassana nana is the clear comprehension of namas and rupas. It has to begin now, D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment. ... (D:> To understand the reality (the All) now one needs to have established the foundation of mindfulness (Satipatthana) .. and to understand what is beyond the All, one practises Jhana. I.e. the 7th and 8th step as part of the (sila-)-samadhi training are the means to develop understanding (panna) ... S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. D: I wonder whether there is only a difference how to say it .. The understanding of present realities , dhammas or phenomena of the 6 senses media (the All) needs the framework of what/where to pay attention to , i.e. in respect to body ,feeling,mind and mindobjects. This means to train oneself by contemplation of the foundation as laid down by the Maha Satipatthana sutta , Abhidhamma enhences the base , providing more details. ... > > D.O. can be understood to refer to lifetimes (samsara) and to the process going on here and now.. > The chain of D.O. is not interrupted ..when there is death there is birth , at least until the chain is not broken. > To use a metaphor with cards :game over, the cards are newly shuffled ..starting again with different cards but with the same system..> > I like to emphasise the misunderstanding that avijja and sankhara ( first and second ) has been finalized / belong to the previous life , they belong to inumerable previous moments .. we possibly agree on that.. (?) .... S: Avijja and sankhara accumulated in past lifetimes conditioned birth and subsequent vipaka cittas during this life-time. Avijja and sankhara arising now, accumulating now will condition further kamma and further results, vipaka, in future, including future births. D: there is no real interruption of samsara , only that 'new cards ' meet the history (avijja sankhara) S:There are 3 rounds of vipaka cittas, kusala/akusala cittas and kamma....round and round and round. D: why 3 rounds ? kamma is inheritated and its fruits may condition kusala/akusala citta depending on opportunity , creating new kamma in our wandering (samsara) with Metta Dieter #125577 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Dear Dieter I give you some write up in Abhidhamam to describe the meaning of suffering. It also explains why noble one experience bodily pain Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” <> SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta Cheers KC >________________________________ >From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2012, 2:55 >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear KC, > >I agree with you that the usage of stress isn't exactly brilliant , but then there is no consensus understanding about which translation is. >However regardless of the translation, my point is uncertainty in respect to 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' , i.e. already with the Pali text. > >with Metta Dieter > >..----- Original Message ----- >From: Ken O >To: mailto:dhammastudygroup%40yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:28 PM >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > >Dear Deiter > >I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha. Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha. > >You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma > >thanks >KC > > > >> > > > > #125578 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Dear Dieter I felt this is a good sutta extracts that explain the intensity of suffering <<"What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. "What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. "What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. "What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. >> Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta KC >________________________________ >From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2012, 2:55 >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear KC, > >I agree with you that the usage of stress isn't exactly brilliant , but then there is no consensus understanding about which translation is. >However regardless of the translation, my point is uncertainty in respect to 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' , i.e. already with the Pali text. > >with Metta Dieter > >..----- Original Message ----- >From: Ken O >To: mailto:dhammastudygroup%40yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:28 PM >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > >Dear Deiter > >I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha. Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha. > >You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma > >thanks >KC > > > >> > > > > #125579 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: Re: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya philofillet Hi again all (long p.s to James) Correction, though hardly necessary, more like a typo. the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditiong dhammas (paacayupanna dhammas). should be "over the conditioned dhammas.. But great to reflect that there are conditioning dhammas, and conditioned dhammas, no self in control of things. Anatta. Phil p.s actually James, I don't think the conspiracy theories are completely nuts, and I agree it's very healthy to question what we are told. You wouldn't believe the way the Japanese government covers up re the aftermath of the Fukushima accident. But I really dislike the way the Kalama Sutta is used by everyone in such a primitive way to emphasize the value of having your own opinion. Most of what is written at DSG is people's opinion, I have a VERY LOW opinion of people's opinions about Dhamma and think they mislead people in the name of Free Inquiry and Discover For Yourself. Our understanding is pathetically feeble, we should consume texts and reflect on them, receptively, doubting any idea that comes up on our own, assuming from the beginning that it is rooted in lobha and moha, almost inevitably. Perhaps some very rare moments of beginning to understand seeing now, hearing now, but understanding things like D.O. Ha, forget it amigo, dream on, hunger on! That must sound very passive and hopeless, but I get my empowerment elsewhere. I think Dhamma is much, much deeper and subtler than it is made out to be by people on the internet, except of course for people who understand correctly how subtle and deep and prone to self-rooted practices it is, people who listen to you know who! Thanks James, always nice touching bases with you. Oh, guess what, we have a lemon tree that just started flowering and his name is Sebastian! I thought I took it from Brideshead Revisited and the great gay character named Sebastian, but I think that's your boyfriend's name, isn't it? I'll get Naomi to put a picture of flowering Sebastian on Facebook. If that's *not* his name, never mind! Phil #125580 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:56 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125504) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. Pt. 2. > > > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > =============== > > > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? > > RE: It shows a relationship between kusala dhammas and conventional actions. Kusala mental states lead to less murder. > =============== J: I'm not sure just what that statement ("more kusala cittas should lead to less murder") means. Less murder by whom? How is "less murder" known? Perhaps it means something like, "as more kusala is developed (by a given individual), there will be more deeds performed (by that individual) that are accompanied by kusala and fewer deeds that are accompanied by akusala". That may be generally so, but it does not show a particular relationship between dhammas and conventional actions. The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. Jon #125581 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:32 pm Subject: Dhamma trip to Poland sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The trip to Poland by Ajahn Sujin and friends has now been confirmed for 5th - 15th September. Lukas has arranged for the group from overseas (including a large group of Thai friends) to stay in the same good and relaxing hotel in the lakes area of Poland. He's also arranging very cheap nearby accommodation for anyone on a tight budget. It really will be a wonderful opportunity for lots of informal discussions (and a few more formal ones) for anyone who can join. I'm sure it'll also be a lot of fun as well. Many of the Polish friends joining will have very different ideas about Buddhism. From DSG, apart from ourselves, Alberto is joining from Italy, Ann is coming from Canada.....Lukas of course (no longer talking about problems as he is kept really busy making all the bookings and arrangements:-)). So if anyone else could possibly join us, pls do consider it and let us know. You won't regret it at all and no need to agree with Ajahn Sujin or anyone else on anything! It's a very rare trip to the West by Ajahn Sujin. Metta Sarah ===== #125582 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:37 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma trip to Poland szmicio Dear friends, It would be so nice if you all could join us in Poland. I am happy to meet you. We discussed Dhamma here for quite a long time. So I would like to see u now :D And discuss Dhamma. I feel a bit regret that Nina cannot come. She is one of our biggest Dhamma friends, and she helped me so much. Today I was reading her book Abhidhamma in daily life, Chapter One to Luraya on skype. This was so helpful for both of us to be reminded on realities. I would like to meet Nina so much, here in Poland. I am still so happy that Acharn really comes. I was always listening to her but I never saw her. This is great gift from her that she decided to come and share a Dhamma with all of us. I would like to pay respect for her, and assit her here as much as I can. I also want to study Dhamma more nowadays, to show my gratitude and greatfulness for her teachings, that helped me so much to erdadicate a lot of my suffering. I hope that when I meet her my saddha will grow more and more. It's so suportive that Alberto, Ann, Sarah, Jon and other friends also come. Best wishes Lukas > The trip to Poland by Ajahn Sujin and friends has now been confirmed for 5th - 15th September. > > Lukas has arranged for the group from overseas (including a large group of Thai friends) to stay in the same good and relaxing hotel in the lakes area of Poland. He's also arranging very cheap nearby accommodation for anyone on a tight budget. > > It really will be a wonderful opportunity for lots of informal discussions (and a few more formal ones) for anyone who can join. I'm sure it'll also be a lot of fun as well. Many of the Polish friends joining will have very different ideas about Buddhism. > > From DSG, apart from ourselves, Alberto is joining from Italy, Ann is coming from Canada.....Lukas of course (no longer talking about problems as he is kept really busy making all the bookings and arrangements:-)). > > So if anyone else could possibly join us, pls do consider it and let us know. You won't regret it at all and no need to agree with Ajahn Sujin or anyone else on anything! It's a very rare trip to the West by Ajahn Sujin. #125583 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma trip to Poland philofillet Hi Lukas I am really proud of you, and I celebrate your kusala. Of course the main gratitude goes to A. Sujin, but it's so great the way "your" kusala cittas have made this happen! Phil #125584 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:57 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125573) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > RE: I agree. I guess the unresolved question is whether the other "conventional" factors that are often discussed, such as right action, right speech, etc., are supportive conditions for the development of satipatthana, as I think they are, or whether they are just "general kusala" with no real affect on understanding. > > =============== > > J: Given that these other factors are mentioned in the context of the Noble Eightfold Path, they must be relevant to the development of satipatthana. Yes, I think this is a good point of agreement. > However, we disagree on the question of whether they are "conventional" factors or are mental factors that accompany the moment of path consciousness. Well the way I look at it, given the agreed-upon fact that without kusala mental factors, there is no kusala, is that certain sorts of activities 'in the world' as it were, are of importance and do tend to promote kusala, but cannot on their own create kusala. I also think that certain conventional activities will tend to create akusala, and some of them cannot be "saved" by the theoretical accompaniment of kusala mental factors, since kusala cannot accompany such activities. So I believe that if one is indeed a butcher who slaughters chickens for a living, that Buddha would say that this person cannot develop kusala at the moment of slaughtering a chicken and that they are instead developing negative kamma at those moments, and so that form of livelihood is working *against* the path, rather than being neutral or insignificant. That's an example, the type of example I have in mind, of "conventional activities" supporting or not supporting the path. But if one were to break down such activities, one would likely see that the rupas involved in slaughtering chickens, and going along merrily producing such rupas, can only arise with ignorance or other akusala mental factors influencing the activity, or the person would not be doing that - ignorance at the very least. So I think such an activity is an expression of the kusala or akusala factors arising and being perpetuated by the tendencies and accumulations of that person's cittas. I don't know if you can accord with such a view or not, but that's the way I explain it at present to myself. One cannot commit murder while developing kusala mental factors. Could one have an epiphany moment where one sees the akusala factors that cause/accompany killing as merely arising cetasikas and have a path-development moment? I think so. But I also think the accumulations of someone who kills makes it unlikely that such a moment will develop any time soon. So that's my take on "conventional" reality and the path. In addition, an akusala mental factor accompanying an act of charity or generosity will "spoil the broth" and make such a nice-seeming activity akusala because of the mental factors. As you and the Buddha would say, the mental factors "lead" the other factors, and they can ruin outward-seeming kusala if they are akusala. > > =============== > > RE: I think that we agree that without satipatthana, the rest comes to not much, or at least not enough. > > =============== > > J: Quite so. But 'the rest' is still very important to develop. Uh-oh: "magic moment" alert: I think we agree! :-))) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125585 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:51 am Subject: Re: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > p.s actually James, I don't think the conspiracy theories are completely nuts, and I agree it's very healthy to question what we are told. You wouldn't believe the way the Japanese government covers up re the aftermath of the Fukushima accident. James: Of course they aren't completely nuts. Conspiracies and cover-ups are always going to be perpetuated by humans who suffer from the three poisons. Conspiracies even go back to the Buddha's time and shortly thereafter. As you know, I am also of the opinion that the Theravada Shangha, with the help of Buddhaghosa, were involved in a conspiracy to present the Abhidhamma as a teaching of the Buddha (but I won't go into that anymore :-). But I really dislike the way the Kalama Sutta is used by everyone in such a primitive way to emphasize the value of having your own opinion. James: Yes, I agree. The Kalama Sutta is about knowing something directly for one's self. It is about knowing the "truth" for one's self, not just having an opinion. Most of what is written at DSG is people's opinion, I have a VERY LOW opinion of people's opinions about Dhamma and think they mislead people in the name of Free Inquiry and Discover For Yourself. James: Well, I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with having a certain "opinion" about a thorny point of Dhamma, and presenting it as such. The problem is when people present their "opinion" as "truth". Our understanding is pathetically feeble, we should consume texts and reflect on them, receptively, doubting any idea that comes up on our own, assuming from the beginning that it is rooted in lobha and moha, almost inevitably. James: Well, I wouldn't go that far! In the Kalama Sutta the Buddha clearly believes that people have the innate ability to choose right from wrong. If we doubt everything we think and experience then we will never get anywhere. The point is that you have to depend on your own experience and not be "convinced" by others to think a certain way. Perhaps some very rare moments of beginning to understand seeing now, hearing now, but understanding things like D.O. Ha, forget it amigo, dream on, hunger on! > James: No one will understand DO until they are enlightened. The Buddha said as much. > That must sound very passive and hopeless, but I get my empowerment elsewhere. I think Dhamma is much, much deeper and subtler than it is made out to be by people on the internet, except of course for people who understand correctly how subtle and deep and prone to self-rooted practices it is, people who listen to you know who! > > Thanks James, always nice touching bases with you. Oh, guess what, we have a lemon tree that just started flowering and his name is Sebastian! I thought I took it from Brideshead Revisited and the great gay character named Sebastian, but I think that's your boyfriend's name, isn't it? I'll get Naomi to put a picture of flowering Sebastian on Facebook. If that's *not* his name, never mind! > James: Yes, that is his name. But I have permanently quit Facebook (which is a little complicated to do, BTW). I didn't like how I would get e-mails all the time about "This is what you have been missing on Facebook". That's just too damn pushy for me!! :-) . > Phil > Metta, James #125586 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:03 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? > > > > RE: It shows a relationship between kusala dhammas and conventional actions. Kusala mental states lead to less murder. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure just what that statement ("more kusala cittas should lead to less murder") means. Less murder by whom? How is "less murder" known? > > Perhaps it means something like, "as more kusala is developed (by a given individual), there will be more deeds performed (by that individual) that are accompanied by kusala and fewer deeds that are accompanied by akusala". It can't just be "accompanied by" if in fact certain acts cannot take place with kusala - it's a little more causal than that I think. > That may be generally so, but it does not show a particular relationship between dhammas and conventional actions. Well so far you have not taken up my "proof" that this is the case - that murder cannot arise in the face of kusala. That is a particular relationship between kusala and murder. Otherwise I think we'd have to say that we can have a murder accompanied by kusala, which is clearly absurd. If that is indeed absurd, there is a particular relationship right there I think. Why avoid the obvious? > The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: > > "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > > Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. I think I am a little confused as to how this applies to the current discussion. Could you make it a little more clear for me? Thanks, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125587 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:00 am Subject: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Hi Everyone. Is it really true that no one has posted [other than me] for the last 30 hours or so? Help, where is everyone? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125588 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, Pt & all, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >Is it really true that no one has posted [other than me] for the last 30 hours or so? Help, where is everyone? ..... S: OK, Ok, Ok...... we're on our way to the rescue! Nina will be back soon, I'm sure. News: The Dhamma discussions in Poland are now 9th - 17th Sept. Hoping it's fixed now as we'll be buying our non-refundable tickets this weekend. Poor Alberto is having to change his..... Still trying to persuade others like Vince & Dieter who are already in Europe to come.... Dieter, we have another old Dhamma friend, Gabi, coming from Germany too..... Americans, it's quicker and easier for you to come from the States than for us from Asia.... A real great opportunity if you can join! Other news: Pt came over to visit us (in Sydney) a couple of days ago. He's very busy with work, so I won't hold breath waiting for him to write up his dhamma qus. But talking of breath, we did have some discussions about some difficult issues: a) when panna arises with the citta which has breath as object, what exactly does the panna know (as opposed to subsequent cittas), b) when dhammas (realities) are the object of cittas in the mind-door process without panna.....now I forget the qu.... c) my qu to Pt - why does someone who understands that any object at all can be object of satipatthana focus on breath. His answer related to the pleasant feeling which is realises is attachment, but also the "clarity" - the joy of having a break from all that discursive thinking..... hmmm d) more discussion on verbal and non-verbal thinking......if it's not seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching, it's thinking of concepts, no matter one calls it verbal or non-verbal....e) maybe more talk on dhammas and situations... and some practical dhamma and sorting out domestic issues, trying to encourage Pt to consider Poland too.... difficult for people given the short notice and other responsibilities, I know. What else, Jon & Pt? I didn't make notes..... can you check those cryptic notes on the Galaxy tab, Pt? Also, Pt, thanks so much for driving us round to the paint shop and for always being so very considerate. We love having you visit us. Metta Sarah ===== #125589 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:39 am Subject: Alberto's packing for the trip to Poland sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A chat about basic packing for a Dhamma trip between 2 Dhamma friends, Lukas & Alberto: L: > If u have Patthana in English u can take it with u. or Any other commentaries and tipitaka books. Especially if u have Milindhapannha, Dhathhu katha? This is good to have it to read it also to Acharn at Dhamma discussions. I d have a lot of questions to her, especially according to Milindhapannha. A:> I don't have Patthana in English, but I have Dhathukatha, I'l bring that. Sukin kindly gave it to me last summer in Bangkok, he also gave me the Expositor (Atthasalini), of which I already had a copy which I'll give you; and also the Book of analysis (Vibhanga) and its commentaries (Dispeller of Delusion); and the Path of Discriminations (Patisambhidamagga); also the commentary to the Udana. You can chose one of these last four to take along with me (I'm allowed only 10 kilos baggage on the plane) and which I would gladly lend you until you visit me in Italy :-) >I haven't looked properly into Milindapanha yet. At the moment I'm trying to look into some later commentaries of the Abhidhamma on CSCD, like Namarupapariccheda, about the same period of the Abhidhammatasangaha. But I think that all the books in the tipitaka are the same, in the sense that all of them explain the same dhammas: citta, 52 cetasika, 28 rupas and nibbana, the words may sound different but the meaning is just the same. **** Metta Sarah p.s Lukas & Alberto, do share any more packing discussions with us all here.....:-)) #125590 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? > ... > S: The "break-up of the body" refers to the end of this life-time, to > death (cuti citta) and the end of the rupas conditioned by the past kamma which > has conditioned the kamma-produced rupas of this life-time, such as the > life-faculty, masculinity/femininity, senses, heart-base and so on. So "body" > is a conventional term referring to a large array of dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Yes. An "array" is a collection/aggregate/group/complex of > interrelated phenomena, but not a single thing and having no existence independent of > its components. But it is certainly not nothing at all. > -------------------------------------------------------- .... S: However dhammas are described, there are only names and rupas. At the end of a life-time, just like now, there are only ever the arising and falling away of different dhammas. There is nothing else at all. This is all that khandhas are - different names and rupas arising, falling, never the same ones to arise again. I think we agree on this. ... > And > > if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? > ... > S: The namas and rupas involved are impermanent. It is these dhammas which > arise and fall away. There is no "body", no "whole" apart from these > dhammas. > --------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > That is true. But the body/aggregate of rupas is still ever-changing > in dependence on the arising and ceasing of its components, and it breaks up > at death in dependence on the dispersal and cessation of its component > rupas. > ----------------------------------------------------------- S: The "body of rupas" are just the rupas. Each rupa arises in dependence of different conditions. There is no "whole". ... > S: What we take for a "body" is just thought about through the mind door. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > That is true, but it does not mean that there is no basis for that in > the relations among the component rupas. > ------------------------------------------------------------ S: True. There are reasons why the computer is not taken for 'body' while the arm is, usually with no understanding of dhammas. ... > > S: Agreed. "Fictions and concepts don't break up". Rupas do, no matter how > they are referred to. In the Buddha's case, without any misunderstanding, > without any idea that what is commonly taken for a body actually exists. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > A rupa ceases but does not "break up". Only collections of phenomena > break up. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: Here, we disagree. When the Buddha refers to the 'break up' of the 'body' he is referring to the arising and falling away of dhammas, in particular to death cittas and particular rupas not arising anymore in what is taken for 'this body'. At death, there are no more conditions for kamma, citta and nutriment-produced rupas to arise anymore in this life-time, but temperature produced rupas continue to arise and fall away for some time. So still just different dhammas arising and falling away by conditions.... Meanwhile, of course, cittas have continued to arise by kamma and other conditions in a new plane or 'life'. Metta Sarah ======= #125591 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:34 pm Subject: Re: Fear sarahprocter... Dear Alberto, Vince & all. You had a very good discussion on fear. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alberto" wrote: >A: I've looked up the sutta (MN 4). > The Buddha is replying to a local brahmin asking about the dangers of being seized by fear while doing (miccha) samadhi meditation in woods or wild places without (samma) samadhi. > > The Buddha says that any bhikkhu or samana going to such a place for such a purpose without being endowed with a pure bodily, verbal and mental conduct is bound to incur in such drawbacks, even to point of mental derangement. > While a bhikkhu or samana endowed with those qualities (which include a pure mental conduct, i.e. siilaa isn't enough to develop samatha/samma samadhi, panna is also required, as is stated in one of the paragraph that follows) isn't carried away by those fears and subdues them. .... S: Just quoting from TB's translation: " "But, Master Gotama, it's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration." "Yes, brahman, so it is. It's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration. Before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me as well: 'It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration.' " ... >A: There is also an advanced vipassana stage which involves fear, udhayabbhaya nana, but this of course is kusala (i.e. unpleasant feeling don't arise then) and refers to the dukkha characteristic of all conditioned realities experienced at that stage of the path, giving a sense of urgency towards nibbana, the unconditioned reality. ... S: Exactly so. Seeing the 'fearful' unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away - not worth clinging to at all. Great to see you sharing Dhamma again, Alberto! Metta Sarah ===== #125592 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samaadhi. Was: Out of our hands? sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Returning to the Samaadhisutta: > > > > > N: The commentary I checked in Thai and it is quite interesting. > > > Samaadhi: the fact that citta has only one object. The Buddha saw > > > someone who was declining from having (only) one object. When the > > > citta has one object, the kammathaana (object of meditation) needs a > > > wetnurse, therefore the Buddha preached this sutta. > > > ----- > > > As to wetnurse, the Pali "phaati" is increase, success, advantage, > profit, not wetnurse. I asked advice on Jim's Palistudy list, and > Ven. Bodhi answered me that this is a confusion with a similar word > in Thai. Thus, samaadhi makes the kammathaana succesful. Anyway, we > need the help of samaadhi. > ------ S: I'm glad you clarified. I'd wondered what a 'wet-nurse' had to do with it at all! Without samadhi, the object couldn't be experienced. ... > > > N: The sutta indicates that one object: the eye, seeing, > > eyecontact etc. > > > Now it seems that there are several objects at the same time: it > seems we see and hear or see and define what we see at the same time. > When there is right awareness, right understanding and right > concentration, only one object presents itself, no intrusion of any > other object. When visible object presents itself, there is only that > object, no person in the visible object. Samaadhisutta is wonderful > and reminds us of the present object. I am glad you made us pay > attention to it. .... Metta Sarah ====== #125593 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:04 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125507) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > Pt. 3. > ... > RE: So mental factors "make or break" the action, but still don't substitute for it. If you have lovely mental factors but watch someone being murdered without helping them, that is not kusala, even if the mental factors are great. > =============== J: There can be kusala mental factors arising in the midst of an action that we would regard as an akusala one, and there can be akusala mental factors arising in the course of a `kusala' action. That's why it serves no purpose to try and classify an action by its outward appearance. In the case of the blind monk, it seemed to those observing that he was deliberately treading on insects; but in fact that was not the case. It is impossible to know another's mental factors (and difficult enough to know one's own!). > =============== > > J: 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. > > RE: In fact it partially is - murder can never be kusala, no matter what. It is a 'wrong action' no matter what the mental factors accompanying it. > =============== J: I'm not sure I follow. `Murder' is defined in terms of the intention to take the other person's life, and if that intention is not present at the appropriate time then it's not murder. > =============== > RE: In fact, both the Buddha and the commentaries speak of the three levels of kamma patha - mental, speech and physical. I think we ignore such itemization at our peril, and I take seriously the idea that all three levels have to line up or you don't have true kusala. If mental factors do not translate into right speech and right action, the kusala is poisoned, and you get akusala kamma patha. > =============== J: Right speech and action are the kusala restraint from wrong speech and action. If the restraint is without kusala, then there's no right speech or action. > =============== > RE: As I'm sure you would agree, the arahant not only has perfected mental factors, but also demonstrates perfectly expressed kusala speech and action. It's not one without the other, though there are those here who choose to emphasize kusala mental factors to the exclusion of all else. I just don't think that is justified by anything I've seen in the actual texts. Do you have a text - and this is not meant rhetorically - that demonstrates directly that I am wrong about this? I would be very anxious to see it. > =============== J: The best I can do for a text at the moment are the following entries from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary (which, with a few notable exceptions, accurately reflects the traditional Theravadan interpretation of the texts): 1. Entry for "kusala" ********************************* 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) ... It is defined in M.9 as the 10 wholesome courses of action (s. kammapatha). In psychological terms, 'karmically wholesome' are all those karmical volitions (kamma-cetanaa) and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, which are accompanied by 2 or 3 wholesome roots (muula), i.e. by greedlessness (alobha) and hatelessness (adosa), and in some cases also by non-delusion (amoha: wisdom, understanding). Such states of consciousness are regarded as 'karmically wholesome' as they are causes of favourable karma results and contain the seeds of a happy destiny or rebirth. From this explanation, two facts should be noted: (1) it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'; (2) the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots. ********************************* Note particularly that "it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'", and "the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots". 2. Entry for "muula" ********************************* 'roots', also called hetu, are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanaa), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of karma. There are 6 such roots, 3 karmically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha). ********************************* The entry for `muula' also contains a sutta passage that is relevant: "Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174). So deeds are unwholesome by virtue of being accompanied by (and to the extent that they are accompanied by) one or more of the akusala roots. Jon #125594 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:16 pm Subject: More on kusala/akusala and actions (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125507) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I am sure we can find many, many quotes where the Buddha talks about how to live and act in the conventional world, for instance large portions of the vinaya, as well as many many suttas, and the commentaries discuss correct behavior and speech as well, not just dhammas. Can you likewise show quotes that demonstrate that the only thing of importance is the development of the understanding of dhammas in the paramatha sense, and not in the sense of how one lives and acts in the world? > =============== J: I think (hope!) we sorted this point out in another thread. All kusala is important; but only kusala of the level of satipatthana actually constitutes the development of the path. > =============== > RE: In fact, I would say that the way we act conventionally does indeed reflect the mental factors that are influencing our behavior. It would seem strange if we supposed that these two levels of reality were disparate - that for instance we could be experiencing many moments of metta while cursing and screaming and killing people in the "conventional" world. Obviously that does not take place, and for good reason - they just don't go together. > =============== J: It is of course common sense to say that a person is unlikely to be having moments of metta while screaming and cursing at someone. But it's not a principle of Dhamma that there can be no kusala at such times. For example, awareness of the akusala at such a time is quite possible (if awareness has previously been developed). And conversely, a person exhibiting great kindness to another may be having strong conceit or wrong view, or may have a self-serving motive in acting that way. There is no hard and fast rule, and it would be a mistake to think that the quality of the citta can be deduced from the outward appearance of the action. > =============== > RE: ... but you have not said anything about Nina's statement. She said that "there is no contradiction between conventional reality and paramatha dhammas," though I may have mistaken a word or two. > =============== J: I too see no contradiction between the conventional world and the world of paramattha dhammas. > =============== > RE: And I would reverse the statement to say that in fact "conventional reality follows paramatha dhammas," and is the imperfect reflection of paramatha dhammas that worldlings experience. > =============== J: Sorry Rob, but I'm not in agreement with you on this point :-)) Jon #125595 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I was just discussing khandhas with Howard when I heard the following as I ate my lunch: ***** Phil: We were talking yesterday about rupas and I was wondering: are rupas the same here in this beautiful place in the lovely countryside and in a part of the busy city? KS: Doesn't rupa arise and fall away too - each split second? So each one is not the same one at all. Never the same, no matter here or there - just that which has impinged on the eye-sense has arisen and fallen away. P: They're always different, everywhere. KS: Yes, never comes back - each one and that's the meaning of khandha. Khandha passes away, never comes back P: And the khandhas always arise together...? KS: Each one is one khandha. P: OK, khandha doesn't mean like a group of... KS: They arise together, but each one of them is a khandha, not the same one. ***** Metta Sarah ===== #125596 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:46 pm Subject: accumulations for watching breath? audio KK 2011 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, As I mentioned, Pt was discussing more on breath with us when he visited. While I ate my lunch just now, I also heard the following: ***** Rob K: One person was saying that someone's got an accumulation to watch TV, but s she's got an accumulation to watch the breath and what I was hinting at was that I think that's a pretty unnatural accumulation to watch the breath, whereas to watch TV is a little more common and ordinary... KS: Is there any understanding of breath so that that person would say that "I'm watching the breath"? It is only the idea, but actually does she know the breath? Sukin: It's so boring, why would someone have the accumulation to watch breath. It's only if they associate it with practice. KS: One is taught. R: She was saying it's not that she thinks breath is anything [special] but just that she has this habit. Just like Sukin enjoys watchig TV, she enjoys watching breath. KS: Like yoga? That is not the understanding of breath. Whatever is not understanding is useless. ***** Metta Sarah ===== #125597 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:03 pm Subject: Re: notes from Alberto sarahprocter... Dear Alberto (& Lukas) - >A: It may seem that it was the Buddha that had great understanding of dhammas, but one must bear in mind that there is only one paramattha dhamma that can understand all the others, either vipaka, kusala or akusala and abyakata. ... S: Well said. (As you later clarified, abyakata dhammas are all dhammas other than kusala and akusala dhammas - so these include vipaka dhammas.) ... > > It was a paramattha dhamma arising (ad falling away, and then arising just to fall away again...) because of conditions, because of all the parami he had accumulated for aeons, and that his panna wasn't really his or anybody else's. > > The Buddha directly knew that too, and that even panna, with all its powerful and blissful side effects, was just a sankhara dhamma, anicca, dukkha and anatta, and he knew that he was free from them all, either kusala, akusala or abyakata. ... S: Well said - panna leads to detachment and freedom from all conditioned dhammas, including panna itself. The raft. **** > A:> ... I was referring to the third triplet (vipaka dhammas, vipakadhamma dhammas, and navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas). > Also a better translation for vipaka dhammas I think would be dhammas which are resultants, rather then dhammas which are results; since all sankhara dhammas, of all jatis and all rupas as well, are conditioned, i.e. the results of conditions. > While vipakadhamma dhammas are the dhammas which are cause (another meaning of dhamma, as in dhammapatisambhida, understanding of the causes) for vipaka. > Navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas are all the other paramattha dhammas not included in the first two categories. ... S: Pls clarify for me. In the third triplet when it refers to a)vipaka dhammas, b)vipakadhamma dhammas, and c)navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas, are you saying that a) refers to vipaka cittas only ? b) refers to all dhammas which condition/cause vipaka dhammas, i.e. kamma, cetana cetasika only? c) refers to all other dhammas inc. nibbana? Right, literally " dhammas which are not vipaka and not cause of vipaka". I think I've just about got it. Metta Sarah ===== #125598 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:07 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > In case it easn't clear, i mean what you wrote sounds perfect.Thanks for clarifying my clumsy phrasing ... S: thanks. I think it is important to stress that khandha doesn't consist of rupas or kalapas but is in fact a rupa or nama that arises and falls away. Each khandha has characteristics in common with each other khandha of its kind. So each rupa is rupa khandha and so on. Hope the rest of your trip to Sri Lanka was enjoyable and worthwhile. Any chance of either you or Sukin joining the trip to Poland, Rob? Metta Sarah ===== #125599 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:16 pm Subject: Re: notes from Alberto szmicio Dear Alberto, (Sarah) > > A:> ... I was referring to the third triplet (vipaka dhammas, vipakadhamma dhammas, and navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas). > > Also a better translation for vipaka dhammas I think would be dhammas which are resultants, rather then dhammas which are results; since all sankhara dhammas, of all jatis and all rupas as well, are conditioned, i.e. the results of conditions. > > While vipakadhamma dhammas are the dhammas which are cause (another meaning of dhamma, as in dhammapatisambhida, understanding of the causes) for vipaka. > > Navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas are all the other paramattha dhammas not included in the first two categories. L: I always liked to consider this triplet vipaka dhamma, vipakadhamma dhamma, nevavipakanavipakadhamma dhamma as: vipaka dhammas, all vipakas, like seeing, hearing.. vipakadhamma dhammas, only those cittas that may condition a result, have a strenght to conditioned a vipaka. kamma. nevavipakanavipakadhamma dhammas, all the rest paramattha dhammas, also kusala, akusala cittas itself, all those that have now power to conditioned result. cetasikas also included, since they conditioned this cittas and are conditioned by citta whe a propewr time comes, yasmim samaye Best wishes Lukas