#126400 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:07 am Subject: Poland 1 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Well after midnight, so just briefly to say we met up with a very cheery Thai group, including Ajahn Sujin at Helsinki airport and then had a lovely welcome from Lukas, Ann, Alberto, Gabi and a couple more Polish friends of Lukas's at Warsaw airport. Lukas in great leadership form and a delight to meet. He's very tall, so easy to follow him out of the airport to our luxurious coach which, at the request of some of the Thai group, took us on a tour of Warsaw, before heading to Olsztyn four hours later. Nice to meet Jagkrit for the first time too with his daughter. Unfortunately his wife had to cancel at the last minute because of a family health problem - anything can happen anytime. Sleep for some, chatter and catching up for others and some little bits of dhamma discussion along the way. In the dark, with some small roads and countryside at night, rather like traveling in India, Nina. Luraya, we're all sorry not to have you with us, but please be assured everything is very well and everyone seems very happy in spite of some very long journeys. Some discussion with Lukas about kamma, vipaka, worldly conditions, seeing of visible object now, just this moment and how useless it is to think and worry about past kamma, results that may come and of course, reminders about being aware of all that thinking as just thinking. We also talked about the value of dhamma friends and the importance of dhamma reminders. Wifi in the room, so plan to keep in touch... Metta Sarah p.s Nina, my mother returned safely to England too after a lovely holiday together. #126401 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:04 am Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu thomaslaw03 The actual site of the Buddha's home town should be scholarly debated and recognized according to the concrete details rather than politics. It is important for Buddhists to know the historical fact of the Buddha's home town. Thomas Law --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kalpa Bs wrote: > > > Dear Thomas., > actually india & nepal both would be like to have Kapilawastu in their own country despite the truth. So it'll not be easy to find where was it. > But it's not so important for buddhists because what the Buddha said us is to go & see the 4 places where he born, enlightened, preached at 1st & ceased. > > > ------------------------------ > On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:58 AM IST thomaslaw03 wrote: > > >Dear All, > > > >Kapilavastu was the capital of the republic of the Sakyas, and the Buddha's home town. However, there are two historical sites of Kapilavastu. One is located at Tilaurakot in Nepal, the other is at Piprahwa in India. Which one is likely to be recognized as the actual home town of the Buddha? > > > >Regards, > > > >Thomas Law > > > #126402 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:02 am Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu philofillet Dear Thomas, Kalapas, all I don't get it. What does knowing the Buddha's hometown help to understand the Dhammma? I don't care if someone says he was born in Toledo, Ohio, the realities he taught of are rising and falling away. And where did he say we should visit his birthplace? I don't think he encouraged cult worship of his personailty. If you meet the Buddha next to a souvenir shop in his hometown, just look past that story to the only understanding that matters, the understanding of dhammas. But maybe I am missing some important point... Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > The actual site of the Buddha's home town should be scholarly debated and recognized according to the concrete details rather than politics. > > It is important for Buddhists to know the historical fact of the Buddha's home town. > > Thomas Law > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kalpa Bs wrote: > > > > > > Dear Thomas., > > actually india & nepal both would be like to have Kapilawastu in their own country despite the truth. So it'll not be easy to find where was it. > > But it's not so important for buddhists because what the Buddha said us is to go & see the 4 places where he born, enlightened, preached at 1st & ceased. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:58 AM IST thomaslaw03 wrote: > > > > >Dear All, > > > > > >Kapilavastu was the capital of the republic of the Sakyas, and the Buddha's home town. However, there are two historical sites of Kapilavastu. One is located at Tilaurakot in Nepal, the other is at Piprahwa in India. Which one is likely to be recognized as the actual home town of the Buddha? > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Thomas Law > > > > > > #126403 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment ashkenn2k Dear Howard HCW: Yes, so it seems. However, an unwholesome one may well have pleasant feeling. (Consider a lunatic mass-murderer who thoroughly enjoys killing.) KC: This is like a laughing king who orders the killing of a human as described in the text, the root is still dosa, an unpleasant feeling. Cheers KC #126404 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:33 pm Subject: right thinking/ wrong thinking luraya87 dear all i am wondering about thinking. sometimes i hear about right thinking and wrong thinking. i don't understand what wrong and what right thinking is. i thought all thinking is just thinking, arising to fall away emediately, nothing right or wrong... thank you! luraya #126405 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:59 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: The dominos are not so helpful, I think. See Jon's explanation > about the continuous stream. You wrote; > While you could say that the wave is "completely fallen away," it's > energy and force is not lost but transmitted to the creation of the > next wave. Perhaps something like that takes place - seems likely. > > N: Let us go into the word force. Intro to Conditional Relations, > translated by U Narada: the power to bring about or accomplish. > He explains that the > conditioning forces inherent in the dhammas cannot exist apart from > these dhammas. The force of root-condition inherent in the dhamma of > lobha, cannot exist apart from that dhamma. Okay, this is a good clarification. The force that conditions is part of the existence of the dhamma, not apart from it. > "Guide to Conditional Relations" (by U Narada, a useful book to > have): in the context of the force of kamma that produces a result > even much later. remain fixed within the body. In fact, some of it is actually > forgotten. But based upon such knowledge, higher knowledge is > acquired with the advancing years. Here the knowledge that was > acquired in youth and which has ceased to be is related to the > knowledge acquired when grown up. ... In a similar way, when an act > of kamma is performed, the kamma, before it ceases, leaves behind a > special force of asynchronous kamma-condition which will, at some > time in the future, produce an appropriate result when the conditions > for its arising are satisfied...> So I guess this is saying that the force of an act produced through a certain dhamma or sequence of dhammas is carried by the dhammas after it until it is activated by correct conditions. Is this another way of referring to latent tendencies? And does kamma overlap as a part of the latent tendencies? > You can check: what you learnt in youth still has influence upon you. > A continuous stream of citta. Well somehow the energy or movement or understanding or effect of those early experiences has to remain in some form to exert the later influence. Even if one doesn't remember them per se, there is something that remains that causes the later effect. So there is an interesting question as to what that "latent" element is which gets activated when a later experience calls it up or conditions of another kind call it up in some form. In the case of the latent tendencies that arise in the new citta, I still wonder what the conditions are that will cause them to arise in the new citta, and where they come from. > Cittas do arise and fall away: when there is seeing and then hearing, > the seeing has fallen away completely. They each have a different > object, a different base, different conditions for their arising. Sure, I can see how a visual object, or light, impinging on the eye-door, would act as a condition for seeing consciousness to arise. My problem is understanding how things are conditioned to arise after the fact, after the object has fallen away. That is just hard to grasp, unless that force from the prior event is somehow transmitted or carried. If seeing consciousness arises after the visual object has fallen away, I guess it still has the image, the nimitta of that object to relate to, even if the dhamma is no longer there...? Doesn't seeing consciousness have an object of some kind to relate to when it cognizes or registers the visual object? > All these things become clearer if you consider this very moment of > seeing, hearing, attachment. It does not help to speculate too much > on: how can this be? How exactly does it all work? That is thinking > about unthinkables and this does not help us to understand the > present moment. I agree it does not make sense to speculate wildly. I am just trying to get a sense of what seems to be very basic operations, but maybe there is no definite answer. The information so far has been very helpful to fill in some of the blanks. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #126406 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:05 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Rob E: How are they transmitted, after the previous citta has completely fallen away? Where do they come from to be reinstated in the next succeeding citta? > > =============== > > J: I'm not aware of any text that gives an answer to your question. > > Would you like me to give my own ideas on the matter? Sorry, but I don't have any :-)) I have to admire that - to have a mind free of ideas is a very pure state, I think. I wish I could get rid of some of mine. :-))) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #126407 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:55 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu thomaslaw03 " ... maybe I am missing some important point..." Yes, I think you are. This is because I consider that the two, understanding the Buddha-dhamma and knowing the Buddha's hometown, are simply not the same thing. Thomas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Thomas, Kalapas, all > > > I don't get it. What does knowing the Buddha's hometown help to understand the Dhammma? I don't care if someone says he was born in Toledo, Ohio, the realities he taught of are rising and falling away. And where did he say we should visit his birthplace? I don't think he encouraged cult worship of his personailty. If you meet the Buddha next to a souvenir shop in his hometown, just look past that story to the only understanding that matters, the understanding of dhammas. But maybe I am missing some important point... > > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > > The actual site of the Buddha's home town should be scholarly debated and recognized according to the concrete details rather than politics. > > > > It is important for Buddhists to know the historical fact of the Buddha's home town. > > > > Thomas Law > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kalpa Bs wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Thomas., > > > actually india & nepal both would be like to have Kapilawastu in their own country despite the truth. So it'll not be easy to find where was it. > > > But it's not so important for buddhists because what the Buddha said us is to go & see the 4 places where he born, enlightened, preached at 1st & ceased. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:58 AM IST thomaslaw03 wrote: > > > > > > >Dear All, > > > > > > > >Kapilavastu was the capital of the republic of the Sakyas, and the Buddha's home town. However, there are two historical sites of Kapilavastu. One is located at Tilaurakot in Nepal, the other is at Piprahwa in India. Which one is likely to be recognized as the actual home town of the Buddha? > > > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > > > >Thomas Law > > > > > > > > > > #126408 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] right thinking/ wrong thinking nilovg Dear Luraya, Op 10-sep-2012, om 6:33 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > i am wondering about thinking. > sometimes i hear about right thinking and wrong thinking. > i don't understand what wrong and what right thinking is. > i thought all thinking is just thinking, arising to fall away > emediately, nothing > right or wrong... ------- N: Citta thinks of an object. Citta can be: kusala, akusala, vipaaka (result), kiriya (neither cause nor result). This moment of seeing arises in a process of cittas and all of them experience visible object. Seeing itself is vipaakacitta, result of kamma. After seeing, in the same process cittas arise that react to the object in a wholesome or unwholesome way, they are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. After that process is over, mind-door process cittas arise that experience visible object. And later on there are other mind-door process cittas that are thinking. This may be with kusala cittas, for example with generosity, or with understanding of visible object, or with akusala cittas accompanied by like or dislike. We never think with "neutral cittas". If the object is not daana, siila or bhavanaa we think with akusala cittas for sure. The word thinking can be used in a very wide sense, but when we are more precise it is actually vitakka cetasika that hits the object so that citta can experience it. It accompanies many cittas but not all. It does not accompany the sense-cognitions of seeing, hearing, etc. When speaking about right thinking, it can refer to the Path factor of right thinking, sammaa-sankappa. It hits the naama or ruupa that appears so that right understanding can know it as it is. Wrong thinking always refers to vitakka that is akusala. Right now we are thinking of many things, and mostly without awareness. It is mostly delirious thinking, akusala. Even though it seems that we do not harm anybody else the citta can still be akusala. Akusala arises more often than we ever thought. ------- Nina. #126409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 1 nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 10-sep-2012, om 1:07 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > p.s Nina, my mother returned safely to England too after a lovely > holiday together. ------ N:I am glad about that. Thank you for your lively report. I can imagine the sightseeing tour of Warsaw. Four hours! Nina. #126410 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: The Sea of concepts, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, The Sea of Concepts, no 7. Sujin: We should understand the cause of dukkha. Since there is birth there is dukkha. If there would be no birth, there would not be clinging and searching for what appears through the six doors. Why is it useful to know this? We should know that what we enjoy is not permanent, it appears just for a moment and then it disappears. We do not know the truth of what appears through the eyes. It seems that we see people, animals and different things. What we see is just what appears through the eyes, but we are not inclined to the truth. When we listen to the Dhamma we begin to understand very gradually that visible object is just that what appears. Even at this moment it is only what appears and we do not cling to the image (nimitta) and the details. When we know that is is merely what appears through the eyes, we are not interested in shape and form. --------- Nina. #126411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Gym nilovg Dear Alex, Op 5-sep-2012, om 21:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > And so on we go with "was this caused or uncaused"? ----- N: I understand what you want to explain. Only the words caused and uncaused may be confusing. All phenomena of our life are conditioned, see, I use the word condition here. ------ Nina. #126412 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:33 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited. no 1. nilovg Dear friends, April 1979 Sri Lanka Revisited Introduction. A great lesson in sincerity, that is what I would call the Dhamma discussions during my second journey in Sri Lanka. A Japanese monk, Bhante Jetananda, gave me as a birthday present the Påli text of a treatise about “wholesome roots”, taken from the “Atthasåliní”, the Commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, together with the English translation which he had written out by hand. The text spoke about sincerity. I did not know that “sincerity” would play such an important role during my stay in Sri Lanka. One must develop satipaììhåna (the four applications of mindfulness) with a sincere inclination; with a sincere inclination to eradicate attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha). Through satipaììhåna one will come to know oneself and one will become more truthful and sincere. Those who have attained enlightenment are called “ujupaìipanno”, upright, sincere. We can find out for ourselves that we are not really sincere, that we do not really know ourselves. We have studied the teachings and we have learnt about the many types of consciousness (citta), but we do not sufficiently realize that what we have learnt is the truth about our daily life. We overlook our many moments of unwholesome consciousness (akusala citta). Do we overlook them because we do not want to know them? We have not considered enough the truth of what we have learnt through the Buddhist scriptures and often we are only able to give “textbook answers” about the problems of life. So long as right understanding of the realities that appear in our life has not been developed, we only have a superficial knowledge of what the Buddha taught. I am immensely grateful to Bhante Dhammadharo, an Australian monk, who exhorted us time and again with the words:”Listen more to the Dhamma, consider it more.” Ms. Sujin, “Acharn Sujin” as we call her, reminded us often that the realities the Buddha taught are not in the book. They should be known in daily life. I greatly profited from her wise words and from her countless reminders to consider the present moment: ”What about this moment, is it kusala or akusala?” ------ Nina. #126413 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:02 pm Subject: Re: Embarrassment ptaus1 Hi Nina and all, Thanks everyone for your replies on the topic of embarrassment. Best wishes pt #126414 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:49 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu philofillet Hi Thomas > Yes, I think you are. This is because I consider that the two, understanding the Buddha-dhamma and knowing the Buddha's hometown, are simply not the same thing. Oh, ok, that makes sense. Maybe DSG is not a place to debate things that are not related to understanding the Dhamma. Phil #126415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) nilovg Dear Kalpa, Op 9-sep-2012, om 21:13 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > I'm from Srilanka where all dhamma had kept reserved since the past. ------ N: I am delighted to hear that you are from Sri Lanka, I thought so already. Sarah and I went to Sri Lanka together with Acharn Sujin. I was there twice and I am so impressed by the holy places in your country. I wrote: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, and now I am posting Sri Lanka Revisited. Such great hospitality and daana everywhere. Nina. #126416 From: "Kalpa" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:17 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu kapilabs Phil.., Actually really you're missing great deal while you're keen to "understand" dhamma, there're some who keen to "believe" buddha's way of relief instead understanding deeply at now. Both have same aim of ending sorrows while believers inclined to respect physicaly to the buddha. Also according to the theory of kamma-vipaka, it's random the rebirth of common beings & anyone can be born in the hell or as animal in next life. The only fact to decide the hell or heaven is kamma of good or bad, so having done respect to the Buddha as kusala kamma is an easy way to find the heaven. We're in a great risk of falling into hell & if you don't care in physical respect to buddha, then you're missing an option of avoiding hell. It's true that the "seeing of dhamma is the seeing of buddha" but ignoring to respect buddha in possible ways means not knowing of good results of dhamma. Our Gotama buddha was a hermit called "Sumedha thapasa" in a very long past life when the "Deepankara buddhas" time & sumedha laid down on the mud on the way in front of Deepankara buddha, letting Deepankara buddha to pass muddy way on his body without stepping on mud. Though Sumedha was capable to make a divine way there but he thought to respect buddha physically & bodily. That's how sumedha thapasa started his way to become a buddha at this time. Buddhas words of respecting in 4 places relating to his life is mentioned in his final sutta "maha parinibbana sutta"... Making a respectful rememberance of buddha by visiting those 4 places, cause someone to find the heaven. These all buddha said us because to get rid of sufferings despite the useless meanings of cult or whatever. Understanding dhamma is prominent & avoiding hell is must for us. Avoiding hell permanently is not possible till enter to the exact streaming of dhamma. But avoiding hell in next life, is in our hand & which depends on the purity of mind in this life. By Rememberance of buddha, who's the only extreme perfect being- it purify your mind to the best & keep you away from hell, meanwhile the "Buddhanussti" meditation leads directly to the nibbana. But all these If You Want..! With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Thomas, Kalapas, all > > > I don't get it. What does knowing the Buddha's hometown help to understand the Dhammma? I don't care if someone says he was born in Toledo, Ohio, the realities he taught of are rising and falling away. And where did he say we should visit his birthplace? I don't think he encouraged cult worship of his personailty. If you meet the Buddha next to a souvenir shop in his hometown, just look past that story to the only understanding that matters, the understanding of dhammas. But maybe I am missing some important point... <...> #126417 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:48 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu philofillet Hi Kalpa > Actually really you're missing great deal while you're keen to "understand" dhamma, there're some who keen to "believe" buddha's way of relief instead understanding deeply at now. Thanks, yes, I was thinking this. There are the four ways of approaching Dhamma, something like that. One of them is through faith, isn't it...it is just not my way, but I should respect that it is for others. Phil #126418 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:46 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) philofillet Hello Dhamma Rakkhita Welcome back. Thank you kindly for the thorough explanation below... Phil > 1. eye-sense-base ( cakkhaayatana ) internal & > sight-sense-base ( ruupaayatana ) external > 2. ear-sense-base ( sotaayatana ) internal & > sound-sense-base ( saddaayatana ) external > 3. nose-sense-base ( ghaanayatana ) internal & > smell-sense-base ( ghandaayatana ) external & > 4. tongue-sense-base ( jivhaayatana ) internal & > taste-sense-base ( rasaayatana ) external > 5. body-sense-base ( kaayaayatana ) internal & > touch-sense-base ( pho.t.thabbaayatana ) external > 6. mind-sense-base ( manaayatana ) internal & > all-objects-sense-base (dhammaayatana ) external > > There is no reality outside of these. > > All internal and external senses can arise as object i.e object of mind. There are conditions for arising. > > There is a kind of citta that can sense all types of aaramma.na. It is 'manodvaaraavajjana citta' mind-door-adverting consciousness. #126419 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) philofillet Dear Nina and Sarah Thank you for your explanation about inner and outer ayaatanas. Phil > N: Manwhile I could add something. I used to find this difficult too. #126420 From: "Kalpa" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu kapilabs Phil.., Actually you might missing yourself in that view. As you're keen to "understand" dhamma, there're some who keen to "believe" buddha's way of relief instead understanding deeply at now. Both have same aim of ending sorrows while believers inclined to respect physicaly to the buddha. Also up to the theory of kamma-vipaka, it's random the rebirth of common beings & anyone can be born in the hell or as animal in next life. The only fact to decide the hell or heaven is kamma of good or bad, so having done respect to the Buddha as kusala kamma- is an easy way to find the heaven. We're in a great risk of falling into hell & if you don't care in physical respect to buddha, then you're missing an option of avoiding hell. It's true that the "seeing of dhamma is the seeing of buddha" but ignoring to respect buddha in possible ways means not knowing of good results of dhamma. Our Gotama buddha was a hermit called "Sumedha thapasa" in a very long past life when the "Deepankara buddhas" time & sumedha laid down in mud on the way in front of Deepankara buddha, letting Deepankara buddha to pass muddy way on his body without stepping on mud. Though Sumedha was capable to make a divine way there, he thought to respect buddha physically & bodily. That's how sumedha thapasa started his way to become a buddha at this time. Buddhas words of respecting in 4 places relating to his life is mentioned in his final sutta "maha parinibbana sutta"... Making a respectful rememberance of buddha by visiting those 4 places, cause someone to find the heaven. These all buddha said us because to get rid of sufferings despite the useless meanings of cult or whatever. Understanding dhamma is prominent & avoiding hell is must for us. Avoiding hell permanently is not possible till enter to the exact streaming of dhamma. But avoiding hell in next life, is in our hand & which depends on the purity of mind in this life. By Rememberance of buddha, who's the only extreme perfect being- it purify your mind to the best & keep you away from hell, meanwhile the "Buddhanussti" meditation leads directly to the nibbana. But all these If You Want..! With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Thomas, Kalapas, all > > > I don't get it. What does knowing the Buddha's hometown help to understand the Dhammma? I don't care if someone says he was born in Toledo, Ohio, the realities he taught of are rising and falling away. And where did he say we should visit his birthplace? I don't think he encouraged cult worship of his personailty. If you meet the Buddha next to a souvenir shop in his hometown, just look past that story to the only understanding that matters, the understanding of dhammas. But maybe I am missing some important point... <...> #126421 From: "Kalpa" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu kapilabs Dear phillip. What're the 4 ways you mean to approach to dhamma.? And you don't need to respect it is for others. you may or may not respect, but you MUST accept the results of what you do & no others involved. With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Kalpa > > > Actually really you're missing great deal while you're keen to "understand" dhamma, there're some who keen to "believe" buddha's way of relief instead understanding deeply at now. > > Thanks, yes, I was thinking this. There are the four ways of approaching Dhamma, something like that. One of them is through faith, isn't it...it is just not my way, but I should respect that it is for others. > > Phil > #126422 From: "kapilabs" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:17 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment kapilabs Dear, what do you mean by unpleasent feeling.? Because at times one can feel sorrow/sad or suffering when doing good (kusala kamma) also. See if a someone left his lovely family to become a monk, then he might not have a pleasent feeling at that time though it's a wholesome act.! So pls be understood that Kusala/akusala nature will not be determined or depend on such feelings in dhamma. With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, KC wrote: > > Dear Howard and Jon > > A simple determination of wholesome or unwholesome is whether there is unpleasant feeling arise. > > A wholesome one will not have unpleasant feeling. > > From KC > > > > > > > #126423 From: "Kalpa" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) kapilabs Dear Nina. Thanks Nina. Actually i think i'm as most fortunate one to be a buddhist in srilanka. Our country was a real ancient buddhist kingdom from 1000s of years past but the situation today is not feel much good about buddhism here you know.! Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Kalpa, > Op 9-sep-2012, om 21:13 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > > > I'm from Srilanka where all dhamma had kept reserved since the past. > ------ > N: I am delighted to hear that you are from Sri Lanka, I thought so > already. Sarah and I went to Sri Lanka together with Acharn Sujin. I > was there twice and I am so impressed by the holy places in your > country. I wrote: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, and now I am posting Sri > Lanka Revisited. Such great hospitality and daana everywhere. > > Nina. > > > > > #126424 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:25 am Subject: Poland 2 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, An early chilly swim in the lake for Jon, a walk for me, followed by breakfast with our lovely group of Dhamma friends. Such a treat! Rather like the people in Kuru, discussing realities from early morning (even after long flights for most people) til now as we get ready for supper. This morning we had a lovely discussion outside in the garden overlooking the lake - a crisp, sunny morning - sitting close to Ajahn Sujin as we listened to her and added our contributions. She seems particularly happy to be hear as do all the group. One word - understand one word at a time. Dhamma. What is dhamma now? Life is in a moment, from moment to moment . If there is not this moment, is there life? Who can know what will happen at the next moment? Will it be thinking, seeing or hearing? No expectations! Always looking for that which is gone and cannot be found. The Teachings are about the absolute truth. - the lake, the people, the table, the friends, all just ideas, not the truth at this moment. A Polish firend, Vorteck (sp?) raised the issue of meditation and retreats. Ajahn asked if this was by ignorance or right understanding. What is the motivation? If it's for happiness, we can just drink coffee! If there is no attachment, one will not sit or follow it anymore. Give it up! Lots on seeing and visible object. Seeing - no rupa mixed in it, no self that experiences at all. Seeing as 'pandara' - the chief in experiencing, pure. It just sees, not anything else. Lukas asked about studying and hearing - it seems like the slow way and life is still so painful. What do we study Dhamma for? To avoid pain? Lots of expectations. The purpose should be just to understand, not to avoid difficulties. Everyone has to die sooner or later - with ignorance or with some understanding? Is it a little understanding or a lot - either way must be the right understanding of whatever appears. The truth is that life changes - pain, attachment, aversion - let it come with right understanding. Otherwise, just more sorrow and pain if one studies with attachment and expectations. A comment by Vorteck about less seeing and disturbance in the quiet place as compared to the city. Seeing is seeing, no matter who or where. What does one like to have? Happiness which changes and is so short or understanding? Seeing is not happy or unhappy. Happiness just passes away. Understanding must develop to know more. feelings - happy, unhappy or indifferent - all anatta, all pass away. Delirious thinking about cats and dogs or about 5khandhas, 8fold path or any other dhamma topic one doesn't understand or is not related to reality now. The role of vitakka touching the object of delirious thinking or thinking wisely about realities now, coming closer and closer to the truth to condition right understanding and patipatti. **** Sitting in the lobby and watching as Thai friends including Jagkrit come through. Time to stop for a chat! I'll try to encourage him to send a note as well:-) Metta Sarah ======= #126425 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu philofillet Hi Kapila Re 4 ways, if I recall correctly, wisdom faith zeal and ? , something like that, Pali word starts with "i", you probably know what I mean now. Re accepting results of kamma, no "you MUST"s " in Dhamma, but yes, cittas arise to understand the truth of vipaka, or they don't, just as cittas arise that are interested in in knowing about the Buddhas birthplace or they don't, no control over that. phil Phil > What're the 4 ways you mean to approach to dhamma.? > And you don't need to respect it is for others. you may or may not respect, but you MUST accept the results of what you do & no others involved. > With metta, > Kapila. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Kalpa > > > > > Actually really you're missing great deal while you're keen to "understand" dhamma, there're some who keen to "believe" buddha's way of relief instead understanding deeply at now. > > > > Thanks, yes, I was thinking this. There are the four ways of approaching Dhamma, something like that. One of them is through faith, isn't it...it is just not my way, but I should respect that it is for others. > > > > Phil > > > #126426 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:40 am Subject: Poland 3 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've just had supper. Everyone very well and relaxed - good team with all the arrangements. Continuing from this morning: Visible object impinging on eye-sense. Eye-sense - where is it? If we try to know where it is or think about the location, it shows the clinging to the self and idea of body. Trying to know it in order to have more idea of self. No one can help having the idea of location, but if one looks it or tries to work it out, just clinging to self and my body. What is the motivation and attachment in looking to find out where it is? Where is the eye-sense? Attachment again. Jagkrit asked a follow-up about body-sense because there is pleasant or unpleasant feeling at moments of experience with bodily experience. Can body-sense be known? Thinking about it all over the body - delirious thinking again! Lukas asked a question about yoniso manasikara and K.Milinda. What is it now? Never mind what is said in the text. What is the characteristic of dhamma now? Manasikara - just attends to the characteristic of reality with citta as chief. It doesn't feel, doesn't remember, but attends to the object. When it is understood, there is no doubt about what is said in K.Milinda. Pariyatti - the skill in understanding what the Buddha taught. No doubt about manasikara, not just a concept that we think about, but must condition patipatti - the direct understanding of seeing with no idea of time or place. What's the practice? Putting attention here or there? No need to practice sitting - already sitting. Same with walking. Unnatural brings more unnatural, it never brings natural. So one lives in an unnatural world. Understand the very usual life - now! Patipatti - reaching for the particular object. Vitakka does not come to touch seeing. Hearing the Teachings and considering, so vitakka comes closer to the object to understand the reality appearing instead of going round and round. Then there is no other thing, no other world, no one, no thing, no self. Metta Sarah #126427 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:05 am Subject: Poland 4 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Over a simple lunch in our hotel, we sat at different tables. I was sitting at a table with K.Sujin and Lukas and a few other tables. There was some discussion about broken-hearts, attachment to another person life after life. K.Sujin was saying the grief or difficulties like this are nothing compared to what is to come - again and again. She stressed metta a lot - helping others to be good, helping them to be happy. She recalled a Jataka in which one of Sakka's wives was reborn as an egret bird or similar and he helped her not to break the precepts. Addictions - more lobha. Attachment, grief, feelings, thinking about what the other is doing.... "Who do you love most?" Sumana and her broken heart - manasikara unwisely attending to useless stories. Clinging to what has gone like a dream. Actually it's rupas that are clung to - just hardness, visible object and other rupas. **** And another lovely discussion in the afternoon. Jon finished it when the time was up, but K.Sujin asked for more questions! More on patipatti - reaching a particular object with understanding. Without understanding not patipatti because not reaching. Mind and a sutta Lukas had in mind. Lots of detail on dhatus. How many are there? 18 or an infinite number? Both. Cittas as innermost, hadaya. Embarrassment - reality. Pleasant, unpleasant feeling, dhatu. Do you want to know? Still I. In order to have less attachment, develop understanding, not trying to know whether it's this way or that way which doesn't lead to the reality. Manasikara and vitakka. Manasikara attends at each moment, accumulates by pakatupanissaya paccaya. Paying attention. Vitakka going along the way, vitakka leads to, touches, reaches out. Dhamma, paramattha dhamma and abhidhamma - the same. Dhamma - no one can change its nature. Paramattha dhamma - ultimate reality. Abhidhamma - because the dhamma is so subtle and difficult to understand. **** I had a lively supper table with Lukas, Alberto, Ann, Gabi and Vojciech. Lukas not looking heart-broken and really, really appreciating all the dhamma discussions and friendships. We all are. I only wish others of you were here too, especially Luraya and Jagkrit's wife who both had to cancel at the last minute because of difficulties. I just hope you enjoy these notes. Will maybe try to get one or two photos taken and uploaded by someone. Metta Sarah p.s apologies for typos - too tired to check. ===== #126428 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:18 am Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > As I understand the situation, neither force nor flavour is transmitted, > but merely accumulated *latent* tendencies, etc. > > How are they transmitted, after the previous citta has completely fallen > away? Where do they come from to be reinstated in the next succeeding citta? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > This is one perspective from which Nagarjuna gave a critique, founded > on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, of the reification of dhammas, i.e., of the > idea of dhammas being separate realities with substantial, own being. If each > is a thing-of-its-own, with self, the problem is a genuine one. I see - if there is no discrete individual which begins and ends, then there is no problem with one "thing" transmitting to another. However, I guess that would be just about the exact opposite of the discrete singular dhamma-events of Abhidhamma, would it not? > The first > line of Nagarjuna's primary work is the following: > "1. No thing anywhere is ever born from itself, from something else, from > both or without a cause." That has some sharp implications just on its face - since it does not allow anything but "cause" to be the progenitor of what arises, it indeed X's out any sort of discrete thingness or otherness, and seems to reduce all events to their mechanics. That in itself would seem more Abhidhamma-like, except for the complete beginning-and-ending of each dhamma event. Using the waves of an ocean again as an analogy, there really isn't any definable boundary between the beginning and end of one wave and the beginning of the next. The water mixes, the energy involved is not "owned" by the first wave or the second, there is a mixture that takes place in the end of event a and event b. Such a mixture in Abhidhamma seems to happen after a complete break between a and b, which is what seems mystifying to me. > BTW, this is a work that truly needs commentary for understanding it. I > think a superb presentation is that of Garfield's: > _http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/019\ 5093364/ref=sr_1_1?s=boo > ks&ie=UTF8&qid=1347190968&sr=1-1&keywords=Garfield+%2B+The+Middle+Way_ > (http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/019\ 5 > 093364/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347190968&sr=1-1&keywords=Garfield+++ > The+Middle+Way) Sound great. Unfortunately at present, I don't have the funds or permission to get any new books. I'm on book austerity! If any portion of this can be quoted or can be found online, I will enjoy taking a look. Meantime, I will jump over to amazon to see what is said on the book's site. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #126429 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:28 am Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: > This is one perspective from which Nagarjuna gave a critique, founded > on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, of the reification of dhammas, i.e., of the > idea of dhammas being separate realities with substantial, own being. If each > is a thing-of-its-own, with self, the problem is a genuine one. The first > line of Nagarjuna's primary work is the following: > "1. No thing anywhere is ever born from itself, from something else, from > both or without a cause." > BTW, this is a work that truly needs commentary for understanding it. I > think a superb presentation is that of Garfield's There is enough material available on the "Look Inside" function of the commentary book to keep one busy for a while. I jumped right into Nagarjuna's discussion of the idea that for experiences to take place and for various things to be accumulated, there must be someone to experience or accumulate them, and this seems to be leading up to his refutation of this idea. On the level of "self" I think this material would be interesting to Abhidhamma students as well. When it comes to the "own-being" of dhammas, well...that may be a little different... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #126430 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:30 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah and all Thank you for your precise dhamma debrief . All statements bring us more understanding in dhamma. T.A. Sujin again stresses us to really understand even one word that is "dhamma". The understanding of "dhamma" is needed from the beginning through the nibbana. Today, T.A. Sujin went through very thoroughly on "dhamma practicing". It is not the kind of practice in conventional meaning like going to the retreat, practice meditation. But it is only one moment that the reality has been wisely experienced; particular reality has been reached, Pati Pati. It is natural for perfect timing of panna which arises to experience reality. That panna is conditioned by natural develop of understanding from Study dhamma, pariyatti. If we do something else unnaturally ( practice without any understanding), it wii bring more of unnatural. There is no way to get on track toward kusala path because ignorance or wrong understanding always lead us to something not natural as usual as it is right now. Looking forward to your more debrief. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126431 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:31 am Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) truth_aerator Hi RobertE, Read this online about sophistry used by Nagarjuna: http://www.thelogician.net/3b_buddhist_illogic/3b_bl_frame.htm Basically Nagarjuna used logical tricks to argue his position. With best wishes, Alex #126432 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:15 am Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KC: The "live force" which is an universal cetasika of citta will continue to cause the next citta to arise as long as the it is not cut off. It does not need to touch, just like kamma that condition the rebirth linking citta after the cuti citta. Okay, that is interesting. ... > For akusala there are latencies, for kusala, I have yet not find text that there is the equivalent like latenices to akusala. That is interesting to hear. So there is no explanation for how kusala accumulates? > I hope one day someone would translate Yamaka and Patthana and more importantly their commentaries as I have an instinct that there are important information in both the texts to complete the whole picture of how dhamma really connect with each other. There is a commentary on part of the Patthana that includes translations into English of parts of the text along with the commentary. I am not 100% sure - it may be a commentary on the commentary! I haven't gotten too far into it, but it is called Patthana Part II [couldn't get Part I] and it is published by the Burmese Dept. of Religious Affairs Press, 1986, by U Narada/Mula Patthana Sayadaw. I got it several years ago from a bookstore in Burma, through the internet, www.myanmarbookshop.com. It is a very detailed book with a lot of charts - difficult for me to figure out how to approach it, though I like looking at the charts - but you may be able to get some value out of all the information. I think it cost 5000 of whatever the Burmese currency is - not very much in American dollars. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #126433 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:29 am Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi RobertE, > > Read this online about sophistry used by Nagarjuna: > > http://www.thelogician.net/3b_buddhist_illogic/3b_bl_frame.htm > > Basically Nagarjuna used logical tricks to argue his position. I appreciate it, but I'm not really going to get into the thousands-year-old debate over Nagarjuna. I'm content with what I am able to pick up within the context of the current subject, and will probably leave it at that. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #126434 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 9/10/2012 3:18:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > As I understand the situation, neither force nor flavour is transmitted, > but merely accumulated *latent* tendencies, etc. > > How are they transmitted, after the previous citta has completely fallen > away? Where do they come from to be reinstated in the next succeeding citta? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > This is one perspective from which Nagarjuna gave a critique, founded > on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, of the reification of dhammas, i.e., of the > idea of dhammas being separate realities with substantial, own being. If each > is a thing-of-its-own, with self, the problem is a genuine one. I see - if there is no discrete individual which begins and ends, then there is no problem with one "thing" transmitting to another. However, I guess that would be just about the exact opposite of the discrete singular dhamma-events of Abhidhamma, would it not? ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I think it would. ----------------------------------------------------- > The first > line of Nagarjuna's primary work is the following: > "1. No thing anywhere is ever born from itself, from something else, from > both or without a cause." That has some sharp implications just on its face - since it does not allow anything but "cause" to be the progenitor of what arises, it indeed X's out any sort of discrete thingness or otherness, and seems to reduce all events to their mechanics. That in itself would seem more Abhidhamma-like, except for the complete beginning-and-ending of each dhamma event. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: According to Garfield, what this rules out is not conditionality, but things with own being and hidden causal forces. --------------------------------------------------- Using the waves of an ocean again as an analogy, there really isn't any definable boundary between the beginning and end of one wave and the beginning of the next. The water mixes, the energy involved is not "owned" by the first wave or the second, there is a mixture that takes place in the end of event a and event b. Such a mixture in Abhidhamma seems to happen after a complete break between a and b, which is what seems mystifying to me. > BTW, this is a work that truly needs commentary for understanding it. I > think a superb presentation is that of Garfield's: > __http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/01\ 95093364/ref=sr_1_1?s=boo_ (http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/019\ 5093364/ref=sr_1_1?s=boo) > ks&ie=UTF8&qid=1347190968&sr=1-1&keywords=Garfield+%2B+The+Middle+Way_ > (_http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/01\ 95_ (http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/019\ 5) > 093364/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347190968&sr=1-1&keywords=Garfield+++ > The+Middle+Way) Sound great. Unfortunately at present, I don't have the funds or permission to get any new books. I'm on book austerity! -------------------------------------------------- HCW: When you can go off your "diet", I think that Garfield's book is the very clearest. -------------------------------------------------- If any portion of this can be quoted or can be found online, I will enjoy taking a look. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: I don't think any appears online. BTW, if you have a kindle reader of any sort or even a (free) kindle app on your computer or smart phone, you can buy a kindle version of the book for $9.99. ------------------------------------------------ Meantime, I will jump over to amazon to see what is said on the book's site. Best, Rob E. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126435 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:30 am Subject: Re: Poland 4 gazita2002 hallo Sarah and others, Thanx so much for these posts Sarah, sounds like a really good time with Dhamma and A.S. and others. You're forgiven for the typos, I actually got a laugh out of this first sentence, not sure if other tables were sitting with you or you were being a social butterfly and sitting around!!! :) Anumodana to you and Jon for dsg. May we all benefit from yr snippets, and hope you can catch up on some sleep. But sleeping is wasting time I guess, when there is true dhamma to listen to. Patiencee, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Over a simple lunch in our hotel, we sat at different tables. I was sitting at a table with K.Sujin and Lukas and a few other tables. > #126436 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:51 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Dear Jagkrit, Sarah, all Thank you for your summaries, sounds wonderful. > Today, T.A. Sujin went through very thoroughly on "dhamma practicing". It is not the kind of practice in conventional meaning like going to the retreat, practice meditation. But it is only one moment that the reality has been wisely experienced; particular reality has been reached, Pati Pati. It is natural for perfect timing of panna which arises to experience reality. Ph: There is a song "you can't hurry love." Same goes for patipati. Cittas rooted in lobha cannot give rise to patipati. The futility of "meditation" as bhavana is utterly obvious once there are conditions for understanding to click on this point. > That panna is conditioned by natural develop of understanding from Study dhamma, pariyatti. If we do something else unnaturally ( practice without any understanding), it wii bring more of unnatural. There is no way to get on track toward kusala path because ignorance or wrong understanding always lead us to something not natural as usual as it is right now. Ph: I wonder about the word "natural." Flying thousands of miles to listen to a teacher is bo more or less "natural" than sitting on a cushion "watching dhammas arise and fall away." The functioning of dhammas which is the real pount if our study can never be more or less "natural", can it? I think the pount is what dhammas are at work, not the conventional situations of "listening to Ajahn and asking questions" vs. "meditating." Dhammas always arise naturally, due to conditions, don't they? I think the pount is *what* dhammas arise, not whether they arise "naturally" or not. Unless we take "unnaturally" as shorthand for the greef and ignorance of the "meditator" who is inevitably forcing things to get fast results. Have a great time, sorry to hear your wufe couldn't make the trip, Jagkrit. Phil > #126437 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:15 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Hi again Correction. "The functioning of dhammas which is the real point OF our study can never be more or less "natural", can it? I think the point is what dhammas are at work, not the conventional situations of "listening to Ajahn and asking questions" vs. "meditating." phil p.s if Ajahn raises a difficult point and there are cittas that struggle to understand, there can be a form of desire for fast results akin to the meditator's greed, though not as intense, usually. But we can't pretend that listening to and discussing Dhamma is more "natural" than meditating, the point is that there is likely to be far less greed involved. But let's watch for that greed and desire to GET IT (i.e deep understanding) NOW! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Jagkrit, Sarah, all > > Thank you for your summaries, sounds wonderful. > > > Today, T.A. Sujin went through very thoroughly on "dhamma practicing". It is not the kind of practice in conventional meaning like going to the retreat, practice meditation. But it is only one moment that the reality has been wisely experienced; particular reality has been reached, Pati Pati. It is natural for perfect timing of panna which arises to experience reality. > > Ph: There is a song "you can't hurry love." Same goes for patipati. Cittas rooted in lobha cannot give rise to patipati. The futility of "meditation" as bhavana is utterly obvious once there are conditions for understanding to click on this point. > > > That panna is conditioned by natural develop of understanding from Study dhamma, pariyatti. If we do something else unnaturally ( practice without any understanding), it wii bring more of unnatural. There is no way to get on track toward kusala path because ignorance or wrong understanding always lead us to something not natural as usual as it is right now. > > Ph: I wonder about the word "natural." Flying thousands of miles to listen to a teacher is bo more or less "natural" than sitting on a cushion "watching dhammas arise and fall away." The functioning of dhammas which is the real pount if our study can never be more or less "natural", can it? I think the pount is what dhammas are at work, not the conventional situations of "listening to Ajahn and asking questions" vs. "meditating." Dhammas always arise naturally, due to conditions, don't they? I think the pount is *what* dhammas arise, not whether they arise "naturally" or not. Unless we take "unnaturally" as shorthand for the greef and ignorance of the "meditator" who is inevitably forcing things to get fast results. > > Have a great time, sorry to hear your wufe couldn't make the trip, Jagkrit. > > Phil > > > #126438 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:01 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (13) Sati is mindful and non-forgetful. (inc. ? for A. Sujin) philofillet Dear Group Part II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "When we develop understanding, we should investigate the characteristics of realities as they are, according to the truth that the Buddha realised through his attainment of Buddhahood and that he taught to others. He taught the four 'Applications of Mindfulness.'(footnote - "mindfulness of body, of feeling, of citta and of dhammas.") MIndfulness of citta (cittanupassannaa satipatthaana) means that when there is, for instance, seeing, sati is mindful, non-forgetful of its characteristic. We should investigate, study and apply our attention to the reality of seeing so that we shall gradually have more understanding of it. We can come to know it as the element that experiences what is appearing through the eyes." (54) Ph: Question for A.Sujin in Poland. Could someone read out the above passage and ask her this: "Could you please say more about being non-forgetful of the characteristics of a dhamma? I can understand non-forgetful of a name or a telephone number, but not non-forgetful of the fleeting characteristics of a dhamma. Thank you." Phil #126439 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:23 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Hi Phil > Ph: I wonder about the word "natural." Flying thousands of miles to listen to a teacher is bo more or less "natural" than sitting on a cushion "watching dhammas arise and fall away." The functioning of dhammas which is the real point if our study can never be more or less "natural", can it? I think the point is what dhammas are at work, not the conventional situations of "listening to Ajahn and asking questions" vs. "meditating." Dhammas always arise naturally, due to conditions, don't they? I think the pount is *what* dhammas arise, not whether they arise "naturally" or not. Unless we take "unnaturally" as shorthand for the greef and ignorance of the "meditator" who is inevitably forcing things to get fast results. ------------------- JJ: It is very good question and sharp comparison. However, I have to define the word "Natural" for more understanding. Natural in Pali term can be "dhamma Chata" which means being according to dhamma. Therefore, flying thousands of miles to discuss dhamma or sitting on a cushion watching dhammas or going to the retreat sitting or walking meditation are happen according to dhammas which are conditioned precisely. My wife expected to come with me for this dhamma discussion in Poland but now she is sitting on a sofa may be watching or listen to dhammas. It is again natural or according to dhamma which arise by conditions, paccayas. But when we think of something different as you mention: desire or greed to get deep understanding from studying dhammas or go practicing any thing without real understanding and expect the result. It is against all condition of dhamma. This is real "The unnatural". It is not going to happen and we think it will happen. Natural or Unnatural? Unnatural definitely never bring natural but more unnatural as T.A. Sujin quote. Very nice to discuss with you and thank you for your concern of my wife. She had to cancel the trip as last minute to take care of her father who got sick. T.A. Sujin said we never know what is going to happen and can't do anything about it but understand. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126440 From: "Kalpa" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:06 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu kapilabs Dear phil. It may be four features/requisits of approaching dhamma & not the 'ways'. zeal, wisdom,.. etc are only features & not the complete ways to approach dhamma ..! Re: And if there's no 'MUST'S in "dhamma you learned"- for what reason you learn/follow it..? I learn DHAMMA found by BUDDHA because i feel & understand that i MUST learn & follow it for the good of mine & others both. I MUST end up the suffering & all troubles forever ultimately. Don't you feel so..? If not then you've not yet learned DHAMMA of BUDDHA. The "citta & arising" ...etc are just words but not the purpose of dhamma. See the english meaning of pali word "sikkitabban=must practise" which is in each time & many 1000s of times Buddha said "awanhi vo sikkitabban" means "THIS'S HOW YOU MUST PRACTISE/BEHAVE" at the end of Buddhas ORIGINAL advices in sutta. Haven't you seen at least one of them yet.? But it's been told by Buddha to whom are interested & respect to buddha/dhamma & not a 'command' issued to anyone else. So it's up to someone to FEEL & UNDERSTAND that MUST or MUST NOT or what else. With metta, kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Kapila > > Re 4 ways, if I recall correctly, wisdom faith zeal and ? , something like that, Pali word starts with "i", you probably know what I mean now. > > Re accepting results of kamma, no "you MUST"s " in Dhamma, but yes, cittas arise to understand the truth of vipaka, or they don't, just as cittas arise that are interested in in knowing about the Buddhas birthplace or they don't, no control over that. > > phil > > Phil > > What're the 4 ways you mean to approach to dhamma.? > > And you don't need to respect it is for others. you may or may not respect, but you MUST accept the results of what you do & no others involved. <...> #126441 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu philofillet Hello Kapila Thank you, we have a different approach to Djamma, and that is fine. Phil #126442 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:31 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Hi Jagkrit The below is very helpful, thank you. By natural I understood naturally arising due to conditions, perhaps I would say "forced" instead of unnatural to describe greed rooted practices such as "meditation." But I see how A.Sujin was using "unnatural" now. I find it "natural" to discuss with you in both senses of the word Jagkrit, thank you. Phil > JJ: It is very good question and sharp comparison. However, I have to define the word "Natural" for more understanding. Natural in Pali term can be "dhamma Chata" which means being according to dhamma. Therefore, flying thousands of miles to discuss dhamma or sitting on a cushion watching dhammas or going to the retreat sitting or walking meditation are happen according to dhammas which are conditioned precisely. My wife expected to come with me for this dhamma discussion in Poland but now she is sitting on a sofa may be watching or listen to dhammas. It is again natural or according to dhamma which arise by conditions, paccayas. > > But when we think of something different as you mention: desire or greed to get deep understanding from studying dhammas or go practicing any thing without real understanding and expect the result. It is against all condition of dhamma. This is real "The unnatural". > > It is not going to happen and we think it will happen. Natural or Unnatural? > > Unnatural definitely never bring natural but more unnatural as T.A. Sujin quote. > > Very nice to discuss with you and thank you for your concern of my wife. She had to cancel the trip as last minute to take care of her father who got sick. T.A. Sujin said we never know what is going to happen and can't do anything about it but understand. > > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > #126443 From: "Kalpa" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:10 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu kapilabs Dear Phil, Dhamma is like the sea & if you approach to the sea from anywhere in the world it gradually becomes deep in same way at anywhere in the world. Also the taste of sea is same salty all over the sea. As you wrote "Djamma" may have deferent ways to approach it & may be it's also not approach but astray. With metta, kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" wrote: > > > > Hello Kapila > > Thank you, we have a different approach to Djamma, and that is fine. > > Phil > #126444 From: "kapilabs" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Sea of concepts 5. kapilabs Dear Nina, Avijja & Moha have deeply clear important deferences which must understand. Moha is one of 3 akusala roots & a chetasika. Also moha arises & falls randomly in minds of common people at any time up to the conditions.! Avijja is not mentioned as a one chetasika because it's the whole "covering" effect(invisibility) of all akusala chetasikas. So, avijja appears always & never falls in ones mind till attain nibbana.! We must not mix up & ignore about these clear cut differences you know.! Isn't it...? With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Kalpa, > thank you for your contribution. > Op 9-sep-2012, om 11:55 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > > > So far I found that many of such "vital & deep" key words in dhamma > > are misinterpreted initially by translatars. I saw this's as the > > DISAPPEARENCE of dhamma. Because no one will attain nibbana without > > having known proper meanings of those vital key words.! Dhamma has > > already begun to fed out from the world becaue of Ignorance & > > Invisibility..!!! > ------- > N: Different translators prefer to use different words. More > important than the words we use is knowing the characteristics of the > realities that appear. Avijjaa, or moha, actually: not seeing things > as they really are. It is not easy to clearly know its characteristic > when it appears. It is the opposite of right understanding, seeing > things as they are. For example, we believe that we can see persons, > how deluded we are. But when there can be right awareness and right > understanding of seeing appearing now, we begin to know the > difference between seeing and thinking of concepts. It is just a > beginning of understanding. A little less avijjaa. > ------ > Nina. > > > > > #126447 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 4 sarahprocter... Dear Azita & all, thanks so much for your feedback and for pointing that good typo - I wouldn't have known I'd been sitting with different tables if you hadn't told me! Pls let me know of any other good ones:) Yes, haven't known Ajahn to speak so much in English on Dhamma for a very long time. It's really a lovely group and everyone's having a lot of fun as well. A very slow connection in my room, but will try to send more notes now as we have a short afternoon rest time. Looking out at the lovely lake in the sun as I write....visible object and lots of attachment as usual. Wish you were here! Metta Sarah >________________________________ > From: gazita2002 > >hallo Sarah and others, > >Thanx so much for these posts Sarah, sounds like a really good time with Dhamma and A.S. and others. > >You're forgiven for the typos, I actually got a laugh out of this first sentence, not sure if other tables were sitting with you or you were being a social butterfly and sitting around!!! :) #126448 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:35 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Kapila, Thank you very much for your introduction and all your good comments. As I'm traveling now, I can't reply in any detail - perhaps later on when I return to Hong Kong I can. Meanwhile, I'm very glad to see all your contributions. Please continue. If you or anyone else has any points/questions you'd like us to raise with Ajahn Sujin like Phil did, pls ask (preferably shortish) questions for us to raise. Metta Sarah p.s. By the way, please don't send multiple copies of the same post. If there is a delay in it reaching the list for any reason (technical delay or moderator delay for new members), pls wait at least 2 or 3 days before re-sending. Also, grateful if all members trim messages (see the guidelines). Just leave the context only from the last message. Thanks in advance. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kalpa" wrote: > > Dear Sarah., > thanks for welcoming. I'm Kapila, a monk from Srilanka & living in a far place here, while experiencing solitude. > Btw, Regarding the facts you mentioned, that 'manasikara' is the cause to 'keep existing' <...> #126449 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Hi Phil > Ph: By natural I understood naturally arising due to conditions, perhaps I would say "forced" instead of unnatural to describe greed rooted practices such as "meditation." But I see how A.Sujin was using "unnatural" now. ---------------------- JJ: Exactly what you said. T.A. Sujin always says "wording" is nothing compare to understanding. We here in Poland enjoy discuss the topic you've raised. Sarah will share our discussion in a nut shell in serial of Poland post including your recent question about non forgotten of reality. It is nice to have you join our discussion with questions or comments via this board. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126450 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Poland 5 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Jon and I started the day with an early chilly swim in the lake before breakfast at 7.00, followed by discussion at 8.00. Ajahn is setting the pace a little earlier each day. She's invited anyone not staying at the hotel to join us for all meals, so there's lots of personal time together mixed with social dhamma as well as at the scheduled discussions. Lukas and I have successfully delegated almost all tasks so that we can just prepare for the discussions:-) *** More on 'natural'. What is natural for a monk and what is natural for a lay person? What happens is natural for all people by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). Going away from what is conditioned now, selecting another object, time, place indicates a lack of understanding, a lack of confidence. Why be aware of hearing at the meditation centre? Hearing is the same as anywhere. Death can come before going to the meditation retreat. Phil's question on natural which everyone appreciated. Natural laughter. If we fly to Poland for a week for more understanding, knowing the discussing will bring more understanding - yes! naturally! We think of a situation or incident but whatever happens now is conditioned. Sitting now naturally. The meaning of natural as dhammada - the way dhamma is. If there is nay idea of changing the present reality or having another reality arise or selecting an object, is unnatural lobha. Later when we were out, it was discussed how there is ordinary (same) lobha through much of the day - so common. Unnatural lobha (visama lobha) can either be without wrong view, such as very strong lobha when breaking the precepts, or with wrong view such as when there is the idea that we can select another object to be known in a particular situation. Please anyone ask anything further if you'd like us to raise anything else on this or other points. Ajahn building up from the basics - understand the meaning of dhatu and then more details. Like 'satipatthana' - useless to talk about it if there is no understanding of realities. We need to start talking about realities which will lead to satipatthana. The most important thing is to understand what is heard. Birth and death, patisandhi citta following cuti citta by samanantara paccaya. Kamma that accumulates lots of other kamma by pakatupanissaya paccaya to condition rebirth. It 'collects' all the other kamma. After seeing, sampaticcana (receiving) consciousness needs vitakka to take it away, leading or taking to that object. If there is the development of understanding vitakka leads it until it becomes samma sankappa (right vitakka/thinking) of the eightfold path. Most the day, vitakka is taking one away to other objects, away from seeing and visible object. Khandhas - vedana and sanna khandhas. What is most important in one's life, what one craves for is happy feeling. Everyone wishes to have pleasant feeling. If there is no sanna khandha, the pleasant feeling has no meaning. The wanna remembers the special kind of feeling, keeping it in mind. So whenever there is vedana, there's also sanna which marks it and vitakka which leads to that kind of thinking. We don't remember the kind of feeling we had in Bangkok 15 years ago because wanna is not strong enough to recall it. What is a Buddhist? Understanding now. Who is a Buddhist? Not all Thais or all those who read and study Dhamma. **** Metta Sarah p.s I'll leave Azita to do any typo-checking:-)) ====== #126451 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:31 pm Subject: Poland 6 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, This moment - seeing, visible object, thinking about racing the clock as I need to get ready for the afternoon session shortly. Still reviewing the morning session held in a little conference room, well-attended. *** Lukas raised a good question about doubts about the path, the 4NT, whether this is the way to go.... Samma ditthi leads, otherwise there is no right path to go. Back to the present realities - the seeing, the doubt....all can be known now. The 1st NT - khandhas as dukkha, arising and falling away. Mostly there is no knowing realities, khandhas are arising and falling away. This leads to clinging, not understanding there is no "I" at all. Phil's qu about "not forgetful about the characteristics" related to the Survey passage read in full: KS's answer: When seeing now is conditioned to arise, is it a reality, anatta? S: Yes KS: That is the answer. It must be panna which is skillful in pariyatti to condition the attending to the characteristic with understanding. kayanupassana, vedanaupassana..... a reality which appears as the object of understanding. Forgetful or not forgetful now? Panna can tell. Not sure, doubt? This is not forgetful. Remembering telephone numbers - not panna which understands realities. Someone may remember lots of concepts but no understanding of realities. Another may forget the concepts, but understand the realities. Ivan, our friend with alzheimers - no one can know what is known. We just think "this and that". Phil, ask more! Qus about the 8 inseparables, touching hardness, other rupas in the kalapas not experienced rising and falling away. A friend at Jon's dinner table had mentioned life being easier with Dhamma. Ajahn had referred to this as a 'side benefit'. If this is the aim, it's still "I" who gets it. For some people it's enough. Aim should be right understanding. In the long run, life only becomes easier through right understanding. Right understanding leads to kusala vipaka. Lukas - scared about akusala kamma and deeds done - "Because it's you!". Near bank and far bank - how far between lobha and non-lobha. A good meal and good things - so difficult not to have more attachment, but it can change quickly by understanding, by conditions, by kusala. The 8fold path leads to the far path. Magga citta takes anantara paccaya to bring result immediately by way of phala citta. The only one that brings immediate result, by anantara kamma paccaya. 11 maha vipaka and 3 santirana can perform the function of tadarammana. Tadarammana cittas (the last cittas that may arise in sense or mind door processes) are of no special importance. They just receive the arammana not yet fallen away. Ajahn asked Lukas about the 3 kinds of manasikara and he gave a really quick and correct answer - accumulations for all sorts of worldly trouble and yet for such keen interest and understanding of dhamma. Whatever arises is by conditions - no Lukas, no Sarah at all. No time to go into the details now. The details only of use if one understands about dhammas now and if they help to bring more understanding of realities as anatta. **** After the discussion, we went into the old town of Olzystn, along the river, past the castle. K.Sujin - a quick 10 minute tour was enough for her accumulations. No interest in museums - just collecting names and details, "more junk", she called it, to forget instantly:-) Instead we brought the lunch forward and had a lovely Polish lunch served Thai "buffet" style on the table. I told Lukas for the other sight-seeing, it's easy with the Thai group - a quick tour and most importantly, a good lunch tour:-)) Time for the next session - let me go to check whether it's warm enough outside by the lake.... Metta Sarah ====== #126452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 6 nilovg Dear Sarah, anumodana for all your Poland reports. I enjoyed reading them and the discussions seem very good. I am glad it works out so well. Warmest greetings to Acharn and all friends who are present, Nina. Op 11-sep-2012, om 15:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > A friend at Jon's dinner table had mentioned life being easier with > Dhamma. Ajahn had referred to this as a 'side benefit'. If this is > the aim, it's still "I" who gets it. For some people it's enough. > Aim should be right understanding. In the long run, life only > becomes easier through right understanding. Right understanding > leads to kusala vipaka. #126453 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:52 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Captain Perera had organised a Buddhist seminar in the International Buddhist Center of Wellawatte in Colombo. He had also organised a Buddhist seminar two years ago. Acharn Sujin who lives in Thailand, had been invited again as the principal speaker. At the same time a group of six foreign monks and one samanera (novice) came from Thailand; they were of Australian, New Zealand, American and Indonesian nationalities. Acharn Sujin was accompanied by a group of laypeople, a baby included, of Thai, Australian and Canadian nationalities. Sarah had come from England, Ursula from Germany and I from Holland. The theme of the seminar was: “World Peace through the Dhamma”, but actually, each day during the seminar the topic was the development of right understanding in daily life. Bhante Dhammadharo remarked that the cause of the problems in Sri Lanka and in the world are in reality the defilements which arise on account of what is experienced through the five senses and through the mind. Being freed from defilements means real peace. The arahat who has eradicated all defilements is truly at peace. The prime Minister, the Honorable Premadasa opened the seminar by lighting the traditional oil lamp and after that he spoke about the study of Dhamma. Each of the following days was to be dedicated to one of the eight factors of the eightfold Path as topic of discussion, but since the development of the eightfold Path is the development of right understanding in daily life we did not restrict ourselves to one factor a day. We found that in order to know what the development of right understanding means we had to consider all kinds of wholesome deeds and the different types of consciousness which motivate them. So often we take for wholesome what is not wholesome, and we realized this more and more during our journey. It is beneficial to find out the truth about oneself and to begin to become more sincere. After the seminar in Colombo we traveled to Anurådhapura where we stayed for more than a week in order to pay respect at the Bodhitree and other sacred places and to have Dhamma discussions. We then proceeded to Kandy where Khun Lim, a Thai lecturer in Påli, had organised Dhamma sessions. From Kandy we returned to Colombo where Bhante Dhammadharo led the Dhamma discussions in the Buddhist Information Center after Acharn Sujin had left for Thailand. I wish to express my gratitude for the warm hospitality and friendship I received in the homes of the families I stayed with in Sri Lanka. I stayed with Mr. and Mrs. Gunasekera during my last days in Colombo and I still hear my host saying that one never should delay kusala because one does not know what kind of rebirth one will have. He helped me to find robes for a monk in the Hague and offered one set to this monk. ------- Nina. #126454 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:08 am Subject: questions to poland luraya87 dear all! it is so nice to follow your trip with all details and summaries of the dhammatalks! thank you so much sarah! i have one question about sati. once i heard ajahn sujin talking about different degrees of sati, what is it? i thought there was just sati that can arises. what are the different degrees? and another question about nama and rupa, how to investigate or contemplate about them to understand better? thank you so much! keep having a wonderful time all of you! best wishes luraya #126455 From: "Kalpa" Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:09 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) kapilabs Dear Sarah. Thanks for your informations too...! With metta, Kapila --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Ven Kapila, > > Thank you very much for your introduction and all your good comments. As I'm traveling now, I can't reply in any detail - perhaps later on when I return to Hong Kong I can. > > Meanwhile, I'm very glad to see all your contributions. Please continue. If you or anyone else has any points/questions you'd like us to raise with Ajahn Sujin like Phil did, pls ask (preferably shortish) questions for us to raise. > > Metta > > Sarah > > p.s. By the way, please don't send multiple copies of the same post. If there is a delay in it reaching the list for any reason (technical delay or moderator delay for new members), pls wait at least 2 or 3 days before re-sending. Also, grateful if all members trim messages (see the guidelines). Just leave the context only from the last message. Thanks in advance. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kalpa" wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah., > > thanks for welcoming. I'm Kapila, a monk from Srilanka & living in a far place here, while experiencing solitude. > > Btw, Regarding the facts you mentioned, that 'manasikara' is the cause to 'keep existing' > <...> > #126456 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:05 am Subject: Poland 7 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, An afternoon discussion in the conference room, followed by a lovely supper outside by the lake with a gentle sunset, swans and good company, not to mention lots of delirious thinking:-) **** Looking for the right word or term or trying to understand some detail in the text ("it's 'I', delirious thinking) vs right understanding at this moment of what appears. Vitakka always moving away, touching the object which is not what appears now. We had lots of discussion about atta, attanuditthi, atta sanna and how they arise now at such moments of dhamma study. Only at the first vipassana nana is anatta wanna really clear. Even at moments of satipatthana, there may be atta satta and ditthi following instantly. The understanding of anatta has to develop through satipatthana development until it is really clear at the first vipassanna nana. There was a lot of very deep dhamma, but I'd need to listen before I could say more and it's also late now. (Not to mention sitting on some stairs in a dark corridor to get a connection - I keep pressing the wrong keys!!) Lots more again on vitakka as the foot of the world. After seeing, all the other cittas in the process need a 'foot' to touch the object. Seeing and hearing are not so important - they just perform their functions of experiencing the object without any like or dislike involved. Sampaticchana, santirana and then vottapanna which makes way for the javanas to arise. Samma sankappa of the 8fold path - the vitakka which is very different from ordinary, wholesome vitakka which arises with moments of dana or sila, for example. Even now, vitakka is moving away from the present object....all day long. I asked a qu about the use of sankappa for vitakka here and the answer came back about understanding nama and rupa at this moment. At first it seems the qu hasn't been heard or understood, but it has. Whatever is brought up, the answer is always directed to this moment. More on dhatus. Just an element means that no one can change hardness, it cannot be changed to anything else. Lots of discussion on "buddham saranam gacchami" - going for refuge in the Buddha and what this really means. So many people recite with no understanding of dhammas at all. If there is no understanding of dhammas, impossible to reflect on the Buddha's virtues. Only when there is understanding can one know that the Buddha taught about dhatus or elements. Otherwise, it's meaningless.Even one's habits, such as when one is in front of a Buddha statue, are different when there is understanding. K.Sujin gave a quick demonstration by way of example:-) Lukas raised a question about arammana paccaya arising from what he had read in Nina's book on conditions. Some point that wasn't clear to him. "I is there", "delirious thinking". I questioned this response now and why it was given and understood better about the subtle attanuditthi in the background when there is a trying to work it all out. Not easy at all. Even now, as I type, there is some "working it out" going on, some "delirious thinking", some vitakka taking the cittas away from the present moment. It doesn't mean don't study the detailed texts, don't write about the detailed points, but understand what is appearing right now. When there is no understanding of nama and rupa now, who can understand what is said in the texts like the Visuddhimagga or the various conditions other than those which are obvious now.The purpose of reading is just to understand whatever arises. Finally - upanissaya gocara, pariyati, gocara referring to arammana or object. The object now is the only suitable one for understanding. Arakka gocara referring to how all kinds of kusala are a 'protection' from akusala. Finally, unpanibanda gocara - moments of satipatthana. Different terms, different accumulations just all pointing to dhammas now as anatta. It doesn't matter at all what words are used. If the dhammas are not understood, the words are forgotten again and again. Like I keep forgetting about the details of these 3 gocara because the dhammas involved are not really understood now. **** Time to leave my stairwell and prepare for some sleep! Lukas seems to survive on almost no sleep, but most of us need it! Metta Sarah p.s Luraya, delighted to see your good qus which we'll raise tomorrow. ====== #126457 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:58 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. philofillet Dear Nina > The theme of the seminar was: "World Peace through the Dhamma�, but > actually, each day during the seminar the topic was the development > of right understanding in daily life. Ph: The best topic! The only truly valuable topic. Bhante Dhammadharo remarked > that the cause of the problems in Sri Lanka and in the world are in > reality the defilements which arise on account of what is experienced > through the five senses and through the mind. Ph: THere are deeply accumulated tendencies for defilements to arise whenever we experience objects through the five senses and the mind. We shouldn't be upset by that fact, or feel that we are not "getting it" when the defilements do arise, as they will. The adze handle, defilements wear away so gradually that we cannot be aware of any big change. But every moment of understanding moves the accumulations in a kusala direction, we need have no doubt about that, so we need not fall into the subtle trap of seeking fast results, which only leads to more akusala. > Being freed from > defilements means real peace. The arahat who has eradicated all > defilements is truly at peace. Ph: But there is an island of peace whenever understanding arises. We can be in the middle of bad behaviour, but a moment of understanding arises, and there is peace. (And probably an end to that bad behaviour as well, but no way to know.) > We found that in order to know what > the development of right understanding means we had to consider all > kinds of wholesome deeds and the different types of consciousness > which motivate them. So often we take for wholesome what is not > wholesome, and we realized this more and more during our journey. It > is beneficial to find out the truth about oneself and to begin to > become more sincere. Ph: As you know, Nina, I tend to emphasize akusala so much, I tend to feel that kusala arises, occasionally, and with detachment (as it must, otherwise it is not kusala, there must be alobha with all moments of kusala.) So I feel kusala arises without considering it intentionally, without thinking about it. But I think that might be a mistake. When we read, for example, Deeds of Merit, we are reminded of many forms of kusala, and we can appreciate them more. Those moments of appreciating kusala may condition more kusala. So thank you for the reminder. "in order to understand what the development of right understanding means we had to consider all kinds of wholesome deeds and the different types of consciousness which motivate them." Usually I would never think that, I would think "in order to understand what the development of right understanding means we have to consider all kinds of akusala, and understand them." But considering dana, sila, and other kinds of kusala is important too. I think I will quote that to the group in Poland and ask A.Sujin to say something. Thanks Nina. By the way, may I say how much I respect your equanimity and generosity about having A.Sujin in Europe, so close to you, how much you must wish you could join the discussions, but because of your loving care for Lodewijk you did not go to join. And of course as Jagkrit said about his wife, conditions, always realities to be understood at this moment. You and Lodewijk have such an inspiring kusala bond!!! By the way, Naomi is in Amsterdam right now, for a Greenpeace conference! She went to the Van Gogh museum yesterday and really enjoyed it, but she said the Rembrandt museum left her cold, too many noble men in the paintings! She is such a leftwinger! Phil Phil #126458 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:11 pm Subject: ? for A. Sujin philofillet Dear Poland group, For the discussion: I quote from Nina's book on Sri Lanka. "in order to understand what the development of right understanding means we had to consider all kinds of wholesome deeds and the different types of consciousness which motivate them." Usually I would think the oppposite. "In order to understand all kinds of wholesome deeds, we have to understand what the development of rught understanding means." It seems to me that if we consider wholesome deeds, such as dana and sila, it will be all about self wanting to be more wholesome. What good does it do to think about and consider dana and sila? If there is dana and sila, great, it arises due to conditions, and we can be aware of it when it arises. But thinking about them and talking about them sounds like attachment to me." (end of question) ***** Whenever I ask a question to A.Sujin, rather than a question that has a specific answer, I hope to get her talking. It's almost like a fun game. Can I ask a question that gets her going into one of her 5 or 10 minute talks where her understanding of Dhamma rolls out so beautifully? Clearly it didn't work the other day, with my question about non-forgetfulness of characteristics of realities. (smile.) Not to suggest that A.Sujin is a Panna machine with buttons to push to get output, spending time with her and sharing her patience and energy are great too... Phil #126459 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:25 pm Subject: Re: Poland 7 philofillet Dear Sarah and all > An afternoon discussion in the conference room, followed by a lovely supper outside by the lake with a gentle sunset, swans and good company, not to mention lots of delirious thinking:-) Your atmospheric posts inspired me to dream I was in Poland last night. (I mean a dream when I was asleep, not the waking dream that is constantly going on.) Alas, no people in the dreams, just a hiking trail seen in the distance, and knowledge that lovely meadows awaited above. And then something about actually trudging up the trail, dark and rainy, not so nice...and all alone. (boohoo.) Lobha leads to dosa, again and again and again in life - nothing to be done about that but understand that it has been deeply accumulated to be that way...and that *is* something! Phil #126460 From: "Kalpa" Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. kapilabs Dear Nina., In view of the same topic 'world peace' reminds me how worst was the "western miserable evil impact on Srilanka" because this great pure Sinhala Buddhist nation is suffering till today from the damage done by western invasion in 100s of years till the last century. Rude western invaders (mainly england) received hospitality of Sinhala Buddhists more than you & they were given land also to live here under generousity of Great Sinhala Buddhists. Later those ungrateful rude people killed many 1000s of sinhala buddhists in srilanka to get control here. They destroyed Buddhism here untill the last ordaind monk is finished....!!! They left here about 64yrs before after chew srilanka but couldn't digest.! Nina, you see what a destruction done by mainly because of Greed, which is "Lobha" based wrong evil thoughts...!!! How do you feel today when studying dhamma which reserved & given to the world by such Srilankans..? I think you may not visited the temple where all dhamma written at first time on leaves by Sinhala Buddhist monks in the past history. It's a stone cave remaining as it was till today. And Nina, how do you now feel about the god's creation story of big book.?:-) will it be suitable to say at least as a bed story to a 3yrs old girl till she get asleep.?:-) With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Captain Perera had organised a Buddhist seminar in the International > Buddhist Center of Wellawatte in Colombo. He had also organised a > Buddhist seminar two years ago. Acharn Sujin who lives in Thailand, > had been invited again as the principal speaker. At the same time a > group of six foreign monks and one samanera (novice) came from > Thailand; they were of Australian, New Zealand, American and > Indonesian nationalities. Acharn Sujin was accompanied by a group of > laypeople, a baby included, of Thai, Australian and Canadian > nationalities. Sarah had come from England, Ursula from Germany and I > from Holland. > > The theme of the seminar was: "World Peace through the Dhamma", but > actually, each day during the seminar the topic was the development > of right understanding in daily life. Bhante Dhammadharo remarked > that the cause of the problems in Sri Lanka and in the world are in > reality the defilements which arise on account of what is experienced > through the five senses and through the mind. Being freed from > defilements means real peace. The arahat who has eradicated all > defilements is truly at peace. > > The prime Minister, the Honorable Premadasa opened the seminar by > lighting the traditional oil lamp and after that he spoke about the > study of Dhamma. Each of the following days was to be dedicated to > one of the eight factors of the eightfold Path as topic of > discussion, but since the development of the eightfold Path is the > development of right understanding in daily life we did not restrict > ourselves to one factor a day. We found that in order to know what > the development of right understanding means we had to consider all > kinds of wholesome deeds and the different types of consciousness > which motivate them. So often we take for wholesome what is not > wholesome, and we realized this more and more during our journey. It > is beneficial to find out the truth about oneself and to begin to > become more sincere. > > After the seminar in Colombo we traveled to Anurådhapura where we > stayed for more than a week in order to pay respect at the Bodhitree > and other sacred places and to have Dhamma discussions. We then > proceeded to Kandy where Khun Lim, a Thai lecturer in Påli, had > organised Dhamma sessions. From Kandy we returned to Colombo where > Bhante Dhammadharo led the Dhamma discussions in the Buddhist > Information Center after Acharn Sujin had left for Thailand. > > I wish to express my gratitude for the warm hospitality and > friendship I received in the homes of the families I stayed with in > Sri Lanka. I stayed with Mr. and Mrs. Gunasekera during my last days > in Colombo and I still hear my host saying that one never should > delay kusala because one does not know what kind of rebirth one will > have. He helped me to find robes for a monk in the Hague and offered > one set to this monk. > > ------- > > Nina. > > > > > > #126462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Dear Phil (and Sarah, Howard and all), Op 12-sep-2012, om 3:58 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > how much you must wish you could join the discussions, but because > of your loving care for Lodewijk you did not go to join. ----- N: Thanks for your kind words. Yes, we just had the doctor over and the company that arranges funerals. He is terminally ill and the doctor said he cannot predict anything of course, but he would not give him more than six months. He becomes weaker every day, but still gets up for meals. The pain is a real problem but the doctor does his best with medication. I take care of him the whole day. The graveyard I went to to look for a grave is very peaceful, I did not know beforehand it would be so beautiful. We try to arrange all these things. Keeps me very busy. Nina. #126463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:09 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Our friend Janaki da Silva prepared dåna for the monks almost every day and she drove around cheerfully and wholeheartedly many of our friends who had come for the seminar. I shall quote from the account of the “Dhamma Visit” written by her thirteen year old daughter Rangita: “Our days were full and happy. Devoted preparations for dåna to the bhikkhus, ‘Upasthama’ (service) to the venerable Dhammadharo and the other bhikkhus, serving the needs of the lay delegates-- all gave us much joy... My father was overjoyed to get the opportunity to offer Påli Dhamma books to Venerable Dhammadharo and two other bhikkhus. I helped my mother to prepare for Nina’s birthday dåna. Sarah, I noticed, was full of fun and joy and so I changed my ideas that Dhamma makes one very solemn. We attended Dhamma discussions. They made me realize how much attachment I have and how important it is to eradicate it, but how difficult this is. I at least have begun to learn that everything in our world is nåma and rúpa-- and that it is necessary to live in the present moment and study it with sati. Venerable Dhammadharo had explained this to us before, so now I understood just a very little bit more than nothing. I realized how much there was to know, how little I knew, and how much I needed to study. One day our home was a hive of activity. We had all the delegates, including lovely Susie and friendly Jill, for dinner. I don’t think the seminar helped me to eradicate attachment to people. When the delegates left for Anurådhapura we all felt so sad. I found that with the Dhamma one can do anything. My mother could drive around the delegates spontaneously, at short notice, because the Dhamma gives her so much joy, and it does this to me too.” Rangita gave her collection of golden sovereigns to her mother in order that an invitation ticket could be bought for Bhante Dhammadharo. In this way he would have the opportunity to return to Sri Lanka. With regard to her understanding of the Dhamma, Rangita expressed what we all discovered during the sessions: we understand a very little bit more than nothing, and we realized how much there still was to learn. This should not discourage us, because realizing this is the beginning of right understanding. The following chapters are my account of the discussions about the development of right understanding we held in different places. ------- Nina. #126464 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil, Sarah, and all) - In a message dated 9/12/2012 9:06:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Phil (and Sarah, Howard and all), Op 12-sep-2012, om 3:58 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > how much you must wish you could join the discussions, but because > of your loving care for Lodewijk you did not go to join. ----- N: Thanks for your kind words. Yes, we just had the doctor over and the company that arranges funerals. He is terminally ill and the doctor said he cannot predict anything of course, but he would not give him more than six months. He becomes weaker every day, but still gets up for meals. The pain is a real problem but the doctor does his best with medication. I take care of him the whole day. The graveyard I went to to look for a grave is very peaceful, I did not know beforehand it would be so beautiful. We try to arrange all these things. Keeps me very busy. Nina. =========================== Phil, I really appreciate your loving message to Nina. Nina, Rita and I hold you both in our hearts, and we pray for peace and ease for the two of you. Please send our love to Lodewijk. With metta, Howard /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, one would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #126465 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. philofillet Dear Nina > N: Thanks for your kind words. Yes, we just had the doctor over and > the company that arranges funerals. > I hadn't realized that Lodewijk's health had deteriorated to this point, sorry to hear it. It comes to all of us, still very hard. But this summer I spend time with my father, in his 90s, and we talked quite a bit about death. Even without "religion" of any kind, he has found peace, so I am kind of confident that despite the pain and the hard days, there must also be many days (well, more specifically moments) where Lodewijk is finding peace too. And of course the moments of *not* finding peace are no more permanent than the moments of finding peace, they all come and go, just dhammas to be understood.... Phil p.s just dhammas, but there is also a story, and as stories go, nice to have spent a loving life together with such a wise and caring companion as you. And after all, the Buddha does hint at something rather good for couples whose virtues have been in harmony... #126466 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. philofillet Hi Howard > Phil, I really appreciate your loving message to Nina. > Nina, Rita and I hold you both in our hearts, and we pray for peace > and ease for the two of you. Please send our love to Lodewijk. Thanks Howard. We don't agree much on Dhamma and probably never will, but as I've said before I have no doubt about your great warmth as a person, and I'm glad that you will be around to help encourage Lodewikjk and Nina through this challenging time. (And fortunately I know Lodewijk appreciates your views on Dhamma more than I do, so better yet! :) Phil #126467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Venerable Kapila, Op 12-sep-2012, om 14:33 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you see what a destruction done by mainly because of Greed, > which is "Lobha" based wrong evil thoughts...!!! > How do you feel today when studying dhamma which reserved & given > to the world by such Srilankans..? ------ N: How do I feel? I quote a sutta: We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Ch III, Kosala, Part 3, § 3, the World) that, when the Buddha was at Såvatthí, King Pasenadi asked him: “How many kinds of things, Lord, that happen in the world, make for trouble, for suffering, for distress?” “Three things, sire, happen of that nature. What are the three? Greed, hatred and ignorance:— these three make for trouble, for suffering, for distress.” ------- As you say, lobha motivates wars. also dosa and moha. Since olden times up til now it happens. Only the Buddha shows us the way to eradicate for good lobha, dosa and moha. With respect, Nina. #126468 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Dear Phil and Howard, Thank you for your thoughtful words. Op 12-sep-2012, om 15:19 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > they all come and go, just dhammas to be understood. ------- N: Often quoted here: Life, person, pleasure, pain–just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced, when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead...” ------- Nina. #126469 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/12/2012 9:27:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard > Phil, I really appreciate your loving message to Nina. > Nina, Rita and I hold you both in our hearts, and we pray for peace > and ease for the two of you. Please send our love to Lodewijk. Thanks Howard. We don't agree much on Dhamma and probably never will, but as I've said before I have no doubt about your great warmth as a person, and I'm glad that you will be around to help encourage Lodewikjk and Nina through this challenging time. (And fortunately I know Lodewijk appreciates your views on Dhamma more than I do, so better yet! :) Phil ========================= Thanks, my friend. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126470 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil (and Sarah, Howard and all), > Op 12-sep-2012, om 3:58 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > how much you must wish you could join the discussions, but because > > of your loving care for Lodewijk you did not go to join. > ----- > N: Thanks for your kind words. Yes, we just had the doctor over and > the company that arranges funerals. He is terminally ill and the > doctor said he cannot predict anything of course, but he would not > give him more than six months. He becomes weaker every day, but still > gets up for meals. The pain is a real problem but the doctor does his > best with medication. I take care of him the whole day. The graveyard > I went to to look for a grave is very peaceful, I did not know > beforehand it would be so beautiful. We try to arrange all these > things. Keeps me very busy. I am very sorry to hear about this state of things, Nina, but the calm and sense of acceptance in your words is inspiring. I will think of you as an example when I have to face such a time, despite the sadness. Thanks for letting us know what is happening. Thoughts of peace and metta to you and Lodewijk. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126471 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:23 am Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > The first > > line of Nagarjuna's primary work is the following: > > "1. No thing anywhere is ever born from itself, from something else, > from > > both or without a cause." > > That has some sharp implications just on its face - since it does not > allow anything but "cause" to be the progenitor of what arises, it indeed X's > out any sort of discrete thingness or otherness, and seems to reduce all > events to their mechanics. That in itself would seem more Abhidhamma-like, > except for the complete beginning-and-ending of each dhamma event. > --------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > According to Garfield, what this rules out is not conditionality, but > things with own being and hidden causal forces. > --------------------------------------------------- That is the sense I had of it too. It clearly identifies the causal elements as being straightforward and isolated from any other possible influences. So there is only conditionality as a cause, nothing else. > If any portion of this can be quoted or can be found online, I will enjoy > taking a look. > ----------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I don't think any appears online. Well, you really can get a decent 'hit' of the book through the search function on the book's amazon site. Not bad as they include some decent portions of the book. BTW, if you have a kindle reader of > any sort or even a (free) kindle app on your computer or smart phone, you > can buy a kindle version of the book for $9.99. > ------------------------------------------------ Good to remember, as that is very reasonable. My wife and daughter both have Kindle Fires, as does my Dad - I arranged to get them but I've been holding out for an ipad. Since I can't seem to justify the expense at present, so far I have nothing. :-) But it really is a good solution, esp. since it doesn't lead to any additional clutter in 'physical reality.' When my austerity ends, I will definitely consider the Kindle version for my computer. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126472 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:31 am Subject: Re: Poland 5 epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Jon and I started the day with an early chilly swim in the lake before breakfast at 7.00, followed by discussion at 8.00. Ajahn is setting the pace a little earlier each day. She's invited anyone not staying at the hotel to join us for all meals, so there's lots of personal time together mixed with social dhamma as well as at the scheduled discussions. > > Lukas and I have successfully delegated almost all tasks so that we can just prepare for the discussions:-) I wanted to join the others in thanking you for the reports from the trip - I am sorry I could not be there once again, and I am looking forward to reading your messages. It's great that we can all share in some of the topics that are brought up, and get a sense of the trip and the atmosphere through your good descriptions. I'm very busy right now with business items - working about 10-12 hours a day in my home office for the last two days - but I look forward to a longer break when I will read more details! Thanks again for sharing the trip in this way. It sounds like a really lovely time. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #126473 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:02 am Subject: Poland 7 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A longer swim in the lovely lake followed by another breakfast with good friends. I talked to a young Thai man about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, followed by long stories about our friends and so on. We pursued the topic in the main discussion later. Do we really not see human beings, he asked? More background atmosphere - living with Thai Dhamma friends is really special, as Nina always says. They are so very considerate. While we have discussions, one will fill our glasses with water as soon as they are almost empty, another will make sure Ajahn stays warm enough, someone else will make sure there are enough chairs and move to make room for newcomers. This morning I wasn't feeling very well, but hadn't mentioned anything to anyone. At one point I felt a bit of a sore throat and instantly, one of these 'guardian angels' passed me some balm to put under my nose, a throat lozenge and provided some tender loving care. This all made it so easy for me to continue in the discussion without any problem at all. Kusala conditioning manners, Ajahn would say. **** Don't underestimate panna - it can understand reality right now!" Sacca nana, firm understanding, pariyatti. Doubt may still arise (only eradicated at stage of sotapanna), but it's known as only a reality. The anusaya, tendency, is still there. Panna can know if the understanding is strong enough to know if it's natural awareness. A qu about rupas out there, the world outside. Without citta, is there a world outside? How do we know if not experienced? There are not even assumptions if there is no citta. Are they (the rupas) still there? To whom? Rupas outside regardless or only in your thought, only a moment of thinking now. Since rupa doesn't experience anything, leave rupas alone. When no 'you', no idea at all about the world out there. Luraya's question about sati having different degrees. Lobha has different degrees, so does sati. (later on more detail about sati at the level of dana, sila, samatha and satipatthana.) Luraya's qu about how to investigate nama and rupa to understand.... What about understanding for investigating. Understand first. Only understanding can investigate. As long as there is "I", there cannot be better understanding. The condition for awareness is hearing the Teachings with understanding. Lukas - a qu about how arammana can condition sati, lots of discussion today on arammana paccaya (as well as lots more on vitakka and manasikara). "No need to worry" - one word at a time. Arammana paccaya just means the object is experienced by citta. Phil's qu about good deeds from Nina's book as read about by Jagkrit. Understand all kinds of wholesome deeds for the development of understanding. Phil asked what good it does to consider dana and sila and talking about them sounds like attachment. KS: Sounds like? She then passed the qu to Jon who replied that there must be hearing about dhammas in order for understanding to develop, all kinds of dhammas. Later KS added that the best thing is to understand reality, not people and things. We need to talk about all kinds of realities including metta, dana and so on, otherwise still atta. Remember the Buddha taught only about realities including wholesome citta, sila, not just doing good deeds. If one doesn't consider a sutta carefully, will be the wrong idea of "I". **** This evening, as I'm a little unwell, I just withdrew to my room and a hot bath after the discussion. But writing dhamma and reflecting further on the discussions seems to be curing all symptoms:-) Metta Sarah ===== #126474 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:18 am Subject: Poland 8 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Another little bit of atmosphere I thought of. Yesterday when we went into the old town to have lunch, some Thai friends stayed behind to go shopping. In the evening as we had our supper by the lake, the shopping was produced by way of lovely raspberries and other berries on the tables. Lots of lovely little touches all the time. Back to this morning's discussion: *** I rather put Lukas in the hot seat by quoting his comments to Chuck #125960 "There is really good chapter on why this is good to practice meditation and what is that. I think this is really good introduction for people who doesnt know anything about it and great encourage to start with, to start the path of spirituality, to care of our life that is acctualy nothing else but sufferning." Laughter. How will they have kusala develop without understanding. L: The Buddha helped in different ways KS: In order to have understanding. Buddhism for newcomers just to be happy or to know the truth? The 1st NT is all realities The airm is not just happy feeling. What is Buddhist meditation vs other kinds of meditation? KS: "I'm not interested in meditation" Bhavana or the development of right understanding. **** Lunch was serious food swapping:-) We went to a beautiful restaurant further round the lake - very stylish decor, lovely flowers, but the good food was served European style on large individual plates - far too big for little, Thai ladies or myself. So we were all encouraging Lukas and the other men to liberally help themselves from our plates. Ajahn continued to discuss dhammas with Lukas and one or two others through lunch, but I couldn't hear much. In the background (for atmosphere for Phil's dreams), the rain poured down over the lake. A lot more on vitakka, manasikara, arammana upanissaya paccaya - accumulated the desire for different kinds of food and so on. I had an interesting brief chat with a Polish man in his 70s, Michael, who has joined us for a few days. Michael lives partly in Bangkok and partly in Warsaw. Betty had given him the details of our trip (thanks Betty and are you still reading here, Betty??) Anyway, whilst discussing the excess of food, he was telling me more about the very difficult times Polish people had experienced growing up during and after the war with the Nazi and then Red Army invasions, periods when there was no food at all and worse. I mentioned this briefly to Khun Sujin, who just smiled and said "dhammas". We think of a situation about vipaka as being good or bad. "What about this moment?" she asked - Seeing now, kusala or akusala vipaka? Can it be known. *** Metta Sarah ====== #126475 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:42 am Subject: Poland 9 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The afternoon discussion. Some of Luraya's recent qus - we read them out as I'd brought them before I knew she couldn't make it, so hope it's helpful Luraya. She had asked "how to study in the moment...." KS: Who can tell her "how?" Qu about not wanting to cling, "how can I not cling?' By conditions it must be like that. No one who can control anything. If one just wants to know "how?", it is not understanding. Would you like to understand or know "how?" Understand it's by conditions, listen until it's your own understanding. Qu about craving for food. Food is arammana. Just self who tries not to have it. Understand one word at a time. 'Tell me how to be happy?' - Who can do or tell one? Qu about guessing it's through listening and considering dhamma, lobha, dosa and moha... First, know clearly what dhamma is. Seeing is dhamma. Otherwise it's wanting to know something which is not daily life. Whatever appears - do you want to understand? Qu...since Goenka told me.... Goenka is not Buddha! I don't mind who says what... Luraya's qu on choosing not to react in a harmful way. KS: good! Feeling, vitakka, no one can change. Dhamma, not anyone. If no I, how can I change behavior? Vitakka which touches this way or that. Just conditioned dhammas. Luraya's qu on excusing bad behavior by saying it's all anatta. It doesn't matter what one is thinking, excuses or something else because the cause will bring the result. If we don't understand dhammas, we think "I am anatta" so I or Anatta can do anything. Lukas asked a qu. Sometimes it's know that seeing is not 'I', but thinking is 'I'. L: People want some particular way. KS: Not me. Nimitta - one lives in the world of nimitta, rupa nimitta etc. Without paramattha dhamma, no nimitta. What appears is the sign or mark. Because of the nimitta it's known who is who and what is what. Pannatti is what is known by nimitta. Without nimitta, no pannatti. Nimitta of the nose - with understanding, less attention to the nimitta anubyanjana like before....dhammas as anatta, to know all realities to become a sotapanna. No doubt, no idea of self, no atta sanna. Nama and rupa lie because it seems that they stay! *** Metta Sarah ===== #126476 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:55 am Subject: Poland 10 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Lukas's comment that he'd heard A.Sujin say that when she sees, she just sees. KS: Impossible not to have thinking, vitakka. For all, seeing just sees visible object, followed by thinking.... I read out parts of Phil's post #125962, #126149 Nama is more subtle, but depends on right understanding and accumulations what appears. Without the development of understanding enough, can there be the moment of understanding which demarcates nama and rupa? It doesn't matter what can be known first, otherwise it's 'I' who clings to 'should know this or that thing'. On the comments about the person with addictions and lobha meditation being better- temporarily? Then there will be 2 addictions - the drug and the sitting. Phil's worry about the addictions. What about Meditation - another drug. Addicted to wrong view is the worst addiction and more difficult to remove. The better behavior is still 'I'. The most dangerous akusala is ditthi. You have concern about akusala kamma patha, but the worst is wrong view, taking all these events as 'I'. On another qu of Phil's about kusala. Without understanding all kinds of kusala as realities , it's not pure, still 'I'. *** I'm sitting in a corridor in order to get a connection and it's time to move for sure... Metta Sarah ====== #126477 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 10 luraya87 just wanted to say thank you sarah for all your patience and typing all main points of the discussions! it is helpful and nice to imagine you all at the meeting! just concept, but still nice to think of you :) i wish a good night to all of you! lu ________________________________ From: sarah abbott To: dsg Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 8:55 PM Subject: [dsg] Poland 10 Dear Friends, Lukas's comment that he'd heard A.Sujin say that when she sees, she just sees. KS: Impossible not to have thinking, vitakka. For all, seeing just sees visible object, followed by thinking.... I read out parts of Phil's post #125962, #126149 Nama is more subtle, but depends on right understanding and accumulations what appears. Without the development of understanding enough, can there be the moment of understanding which demarcates nama and rupa? It doesn't matter what can be known first, otherwise it's 'I' who clings to 'should know this or that thing'. On the comments about the person with addictions and lobha meditation being better- temporarily? Then there will be 2 addictions - the drug and the sitting. Phil's worry about the addictions. What about Meditation - another drug. Addicted to wrong view is the worst addiction and more difficult to remove. The better behavior is still 'I'. The most dangerous akusala is ditthi. You have concern about akusala kamma patha, but the worst is wrong view, taking all these events as 'I'. On another qu of Phil's about kusala. Without understanding all kinds of kusala as realities , it's not pure, still 'I'. *** I'm sitting in a corridor in order to get a connection and it's time to move for sure... Metta Sarah ====== ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #126478 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 9/12/2012 11:23:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: When my austerity ends, I will definitely consider the Kindle version for my computer. ============================ In case you are not aware of it, if you have (the free) Kindle apps on several devices, any Kindle book you buy is readable on all the devices. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126479 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:18 am Subject: Re: Poland 10 philofillet Hi Sarah, Lukas, all Lukas needs professional help. I think it is dangerous for him to be left with the impression that Dhamma study and development of understanding of realities in daily life can save his life. A.Sujin and others should not be talking about drug addiction and comparing it to meditation, that's a disservice to Lukas, they should simply urge Lukas to get professional help and keep getting professional help or he will die young. (I'm adsuming that when he says "opiates" he meant heroin rather than marijuana.) I don't have anything more to say except, again, keeping looking for a doctor who can help you, Lukas. phil #126480 From: SARAH CONNELL Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 dhammasanna Dear Dhamma friend Sarah and all, I have to agree with Phil on what he says about addiction. I was a professional working with alcoholics and addicts for more than a quarter of a century and have been a Theravada Buddhist longer than that. I have found in that time that nearly all addicts/alcoholics need some professional help to become clean/sober. Then there is a period of time (usually measured in at least a few years) in learning to live a clean/sober life (again with either professional help or help from peer support groups). During this latter phase and later, a person using dhamma and meditation in learning to live life based on reality and not the delusion many humans live may live in a clean and sober manner without additional professional assistance. I only decided to make a comment as I have seen too many persons die because of their refusal or denial in this aspect of their illness.  May you be well and happy and always smiling,  Sarah Jane ________________________________ From: philip Hi Sarah, Lukas, all Lukas needs professional help. <.....> #126481 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 sarahprocter... Dear Phil & Sarah Jane, >________________________________ > From: SARAH CONNELL > >I have to agree with Phil on what he says about addiction. .... S: I'm glad you've both added your feedback. I agree with you both about the need for professional help with the addictions and will try to talk further to Lukas about this. His brother is currently on a methadone program for heroin addiction. Lukas assures me he hasn't taken the same. Even so, I know Luraya as well as ourselves have urged him to get help for other problems. I'll try to address the issues further inside and outside the Dhamma sessions. As you both suggest, understanding that there are only dhammas now doesn't mean not taking the appropriate medicine. That would be a wrong understanding, like in the example Luraya gave (or Phil gave before on a trip to Canada) when one has the idea that because all dhammas are anatta, anything goes. As K.Sujin said yesterday, such excuses indicate an idea of "I am anatta" so one thinks "anatta can do anything." Breakfast time with the group. No swim today because of my cold. Metta Sarah p.s Sarah Jane, please contribute more. Just one thing - pls trim your messages, just to keep enough of the previous one for context only. Thx in advance to everyone for this. ========= #126482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:25 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 1 Dåna. Sri Lanka is a country where dåna is widely practised. The Singhalese are always giving and sharing, they see the value of generosity. Even those who are poor organise dåna for the monks in temples or in their homes. Giving with genuine generosity is dåna, but also at those moments one is not able to give oneself, there can be an opportunity for dåna, namely, for “anumodana dåna”, the appreciation of other people’s good deeds. For us there were many opportunities for anumodana dåna while we were traveling. While we were staying in a hotel in Anurådhapura, we invited each morning for dåna the group of foreign monks who had come from Thailand. They would enter the hotel carrying their bowls and sit down in silence with great discipline. The monks had decided to take only one meal a day. Monks are allowed to have more than one meal if taken before midday, but these monks found that there were many advantages in taking one meal. The “Visuddhimagga” (Ch II) speaks about the “Duthangas”, ascetical practices a monk can undertake in addition to all the rules he has to observe. One of these is the “one sessioner’s practice”. The monk who has undertaken this eats only in one session and does not sit down again for more food. The “Visuddhimagga” (Ch II, 37) mentions the following benefits of this practice: “He has little affliction and little sickness; he has lightness, strength and a happy life; there is no contravening (rules) about food that is not what is left over from a meal; craving for tastes is eliminated; his life conforms to the (principles of) fewness of wishes, and so on.” All the monks of this group were striving earnestly to observe the monks’ síla and to conform to the principles of fewness of wishes. They trained themselves not to engage in worldly talk but to speak only about Dhamma or else to be silent. The other guests of the hotel praised the discipline of this group of monks and one of them left money to be spend on dåna for them. The waiters of the hotel helped offering the food to the monks with great joy and devotion. -------- Nina. #126483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 7 nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 12-sep-2012, om 20:02 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > This evening, as I'm a little unwell, I just withdrew to my room > and a hot bath after the discussion. But writing dhamma and > reflecting further on the discussions seems to be curing all > symptoms:-) ------- N: I can imagine, such efforts you make. I am also a little unwell, unusual efforts in the house. But now, at the computer, while a helper is busy, I really feel better. Nina. #126484 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 12-sep-2012, om 17:05 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I am very sorry to hear about this state of things, Nina, but the > calm and sense of acceptance in your words is inspiring. I will > think of you as an example when I have to face such a time, despite > the sadness. Thanks for letting us know what is happening. Thoughts > of peace and metta to you and Lodewijk. ------ N: Thank you for your kind words. But it all depends on the moment how I feel conditions. At some moments I am a little trembling. I am just checking my "Sri Lanka Revisited" and I wrote: < We cling to ourselves time and again. When we miss someone who is dear to us there is sadness and this is conditioned by clinging to our own pleasant feeling, the feeling we derive from being in the company of that person. When we realize more often our many moments of clinging, it is the beginning of right understanding and this is beneficial. It is better to know ourselves than to be ignorant our whole life.> It is helpful to understand more one's clinging. Clinging to people. Nina. #126485 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 philofillet Hi Sarah, Lukas, Sarah Jane, all Thanks for your further explanation. My reaction was a little strident, probably because of the story of my cousin. Hope your cold gets better soon. (Whenever I get a cold I take the opportunity to double or even triple dose codeine- based medicine. You see, I have that tendency lurking in me as well, thus the stridency...) phil #126486 From: "Kalpa" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:25 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 4. kapilabs Nina: Dear friends, > Chapter 1 > Dåna. > Sri Lanka is a country where dåna is widely practised. The Singhalese are always giving and sharing, they see the value of generosity. Even > those who are poor organise dåna for the monks in temples or in their homes. Dear Nina, hearing, seeing, praising, reminding or recommending, etc of such dana is also a habit of better humans called "sappurusa" & it lead to have good results. Spending for buddha/dhamma/sangha- produces infinit good results which give happiness for the same doers. "Dana means Happiness" - though you be enlightened, you'll not have food if you've not given dana before.!!! Btw, Nina, how much you'll get in return if you give dana to an animal.? With metta., Kapila. #126487 From: "Kalpa" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. kapilabs N: As you say, lobha motivates wars. also dosa and moha. > Since olden times up til now it happens. Only the Buddha shows us the way to eradicate for good lobha, dosa, Moha. k: Dear, Nina. Your recalling of dhamma at relevant point, was very good & thanks. Examine of dhamma ultimatly leads to samma samadhi at the very moment.! Btw, if we go little bit ahead, what're the important differences of akusala roots raga, dosa & moha..? With metta, Kapila. #126488 From: "Kalpa" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. kapilabs Dear Nina, it's not so clear about your situation for me.?! N: Thank you for your kind words. But it all depends on the moment how I feel conditions. At some moments I am a little trembling. I am just checking my "Sri Lanka Revisited" and I wrote: We cling to ourselves time and again. When we miss someone who is dear to us #126489 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Venerable Kapila, Op 13-sep-2012, om 12:58 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > it's not so clear about your situation for me.?! ----- N: My husband is terminally ill, that is my situation. We cannot know how long he will live, but not so long. I appreciate your remarks, food for thought, but I take my time for answering, since I am so busy with heavy work in the house. With respect, Nina. #126490 From: "philofillet" Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (14) (true for each citta) philofillet Dear Group Pt.2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "When there is hearing of sound, sati can arise and be aware of it, so that hearing can be known as a reality that expriences, and this is an internal reality. It is not easy to investigate this reality and to now it as it is. The reality that hears sound arises, experiences the sound that appears, and then falls away immediately. This is true for each citta; it arises, experiences an object just for an extremly short moment, and then it falls away very rapidly." (54) (end of passage) Ph: Life is just one citta that arises and falls away again. And yet we have our loved ones, and there is no way that we are not deeply attached to them. But ever so gradually, lifetime after lifetime, understanding develops so that we truly come to understand that "this is true for each citta; it arises, experiences an object just for an extremely short moment, and then it falls away very rapidly." Understanding of this kind that leads to awakening and liberation from the seemingly endless cycle of death and birth can and does arise, the Buddha said so, and if it weren't possible, the Buddha wouldn't have said so. There is hope, we keep listening, understanding is developed, gradually lifetime after lifetime. Let's be grateful, all of us here, to have been born as human beings with sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching, a great and rare blessing of conditionality. Phil #126491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (14) (true for each citta) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 13-sep-2012, om 14:55 heeft philofillet het volgende geschreven: > Life is just one citta that arises and falls away again. And yet > we have our loved ones, and there is no way that we are not deeply > attached to them. ------ N: Thank you for the extract and I appreciate your paraphrasing. It is consoling, Nina. #126492 From: "Kalpa" Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:40 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. kapilabs Dear Nina., ......... N: My husband is terminally ill, that is my situation. .......... K: My sympathy of you but I didn't think that your husband was ill. Anyway keep more than running dhamma in your mind & it'll ease your situation. Have you read the Bandula-Mallika's story.? This Mallika was the wife of Bandula, he was a super-man & the chief commander of king Kosala & he had 32 sons, all worked for army with Bandula. Later he & his 32 sons murdered by king Kosala by mistake of beliving gossips. Mallika received the massage of murder, when she was giving dana to maha sangha. She kept massage with her & involved in giving dana without showing any deference. Meanwhile a large butter basket dropped & broken by servants of Mallika. Then Sariputta thero told, "Mallika, that the thing is broken which's subject to break & don't think of it", then Mallika showed the massage of the murder of her family, to Sariputta thero & told "bhanthe, do i think of butter basket, while not thinking of the murder of my husband & 32 sons"..? Btw, Nina, can your husband understand & talk with you.? How do you help him to not be regrettable..? With metta, kapila. #126493 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:41 am Subject: Poland extra jagkrit2012 Dear all While Sarah get some rest from her cold, why don't we exercise our Vitaka (thinking) with some dhamma questions on the discussion table with T.A. Sujin Where is seeing? What is it when we find where is our seeing? Are you responsible for seeing? Can we know the future? Can we do any thing at will at all? What about just a moment ago, now? Merely understanding the word of "reality" or what is reality now? Are there people in this room (or here)? Do you know what you're seeing ? Books, pen, cup... Nimitta! Why someone can not understand dhamma? Is dhamma common to all? Can we just read dhamma books to understand dhamma? What is dhamma? Is the answer to above question just an expression of definition? Who could know dhamma? Why study dhamma? Are you looking for dhammas? Can any one make a decision? Can we make a choice ? Before understand the way things are, what are that things? What is understanding the way as it is? Hardness as hardness, seeing as seeing? Enjoy Jagkrit #126494 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:09 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44 Cuu.lavedalla Sutta is an interesting sutta. To start with, the two main characters, Visaakha and Dhammadinnaa, are interesting. As the story goes: [Once, there was a lay-disciple of the Buddha named Visaakha in Raajagaha. After hearing the Buddha's discourses again and again Visaakha attained Anaagaami Fruition and he said to his wife, "Please accept all my property; from today, I'm not going to take part in any of the affairs of the house." His wife Dhammadinnaa retorted, "Who would swallow the spittle you have thrown up?" Then she asked permission from him to enter the Order and became a bhikkhuni. After becoming a bhikkhuni she went to a monastery in a small village in the company of other bhikkhunis to practise meditation. Within a short time, she attained arahatship and returned to Raajagaha.] This story is a big encouragement for womenfolk. It shows that, given equal opportunities, a woman can attain the same achievement as a man, or even better (as in this case). The questions are also interesting. Visaakha heard that Dhammadinnaa had returned to Raajagaha, but he did not know that Dhammadinnaa had become an Arahant. He wanted to know what sort of insight she had achieved, and so he went to see her and asked her those questions. He started with easier questions which a Sotaapanna would know, and then he gradually raised the level of his questions. When he went too far in his questioning she stopped him. One of the interesting questions is on sa"nkhaara. When it comes to the definition of kaayasa"nkhaara, vaciisa"nkhaara, and cittasa"nkhaara, one usually refers to MN 44. Normally, one might answer a question on sa"nkhaara, in the context of Dependent Origination, saying that they are wholesome and unwholesome volitions (cetanaa) of body, speech, and mind [as explained in Visuddhimagga XVII, 61]. But in this case, Therii Dhammadinnaa, knowing that Visaakha had become an Anaagaami, anticipated that he would ask questions on the Cessation (nirodha-samaapatti); and so, she gave the definitions that are relevant to nirodha-samaapatti. In my following presentation of the sutta, I have taken the Paa.li text from the website, http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ . The translation was by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The numbers in square brackets before each question are inserted by me. -------------------- 460. Eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa raajagahe viharati ve.luvane kalandakanivaape. Atha kho visaakho upaasako yena dhammadinnaa bhikkhunii tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa dhammadinna.m bhikkhuni.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho visaakho upaasako dhammadinna.m bhikkhuni.m etadavoca 1. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Raajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then the lay follower Visaakha went to the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa [Note 459], and after paying homage to her, he said down at one side and asked her: [Note 459] Visaakha was a wealthy merchant of Raajagaha and a non-returner. Dhammadinnaa, his former wife in lay life, had attained arahantship soon after her ordination as a bhikkhunii. She was declared by the Buddha the foremost bhikkhunii disciple in expounding the Dhamma. -------------------- (PERSONALITY) [1] "'sakkaayo sakkaayo'ti, ayye, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkaayo vutto bhagavataa"ti? "Pa~nca kho ime, aavuso visaakha, upaadaanakkhandhaa sakkaayo vutto bhagavataa, seyyathida.m ruupupaadaanakkhandho, vedanupaadaanakkhandho, sa~n~nupaadaanakkhandho, sa"nkhaarupaadaanakkhandho, vi~n~naa.nupaadaanakkhandho. Ime kho, aavuso visaakha, pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa sakkaayo vutto bhagavataa"ti. "Saadhayye"ti kho visaakho upaasako dhammadinnaaya bhikkhuniyaa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa dhammadinna.m bhikkhuni.m uttari.m pa~nha.m apucchi [1] 2. "Lady, 'personality (sakkaaya), personality (sakkaaya)' is said. What is called personality by the Blessed One?†"Friend Visaakha, these five aggregates affected by clinging are called personality by the Blessed One; that is, the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the formation aggregate affected by clinging, and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. These five aggregates affected by clinging (pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa) are called personality (sakkaaya) by the Blessed One." [Note 460] [Note 460] MA explains the compound pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa as the five aggregates that become the condition for clinging (MT: as its objects). Since these five aggregates are, in brief, the entire noble truth of suffering (MN 9.15; 28.3), it will be seen that the first four questions pose an inquiry into the Four Noble Truths expressed in terms of personality rather than suffering. Saying, "Good, lady," the lay follower Visaakha delighted and rejoiced in the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa's words. Then he asked her a further question: -------------------- [2] "'sakkaayasamudayo sakkaayasamudayo'ti, ayye, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkaayasamudayo vutto bhagavataa"ti? "Yaaya.m, aavuso visaakha, ta.nhaa ponobbhavikaa nandiiraagasahagataa tatratatraabhinandinii, seyyathida.m kaamata.nhaa bhavata.nhaa vibhavata.nhaa; aya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, sakkaayasamudayo vutto bhagavataa"ti. [2] 3. "Lady, 'origin of personality (sakkaaya-samudayo), origin of personality (sakkaaya-samudayo)' is said. What is called the origin of personality by the Blessed One?" "Friend Visakha, it is craving, which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that; that is, craving for sensual pleasures (kaama-ta.nhaa), craving for being (bhava-ta.nhaa), and craving for non-being (vibhava-ta.nhaa). This is called the origin of personality (sakkaaya-samudayo) by the Blessed One." -------------------- [3] "'Sakkaayanirodho sakkaayanirodho'ti, ayye, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkaayanirodho vutto bhagavataa"ti? "Yo kho, aavuso visaakha, tassaayeva ta.nhaaya asesaviraaganirodho caago pa.tinissaggo mutti anaalayo; aya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, sakkaayanirodho vutto bhagavataa"ti. [3] 4. "Lady, 'cessation of personality (sakkaaya-nirodho), cessation of personality (sakkaaya-nirodho)' is said. What is called the cessation of personality by the Blessed One?" "Friend Visaakha, it is the remainderless fading away and ceasing (asesaviraaganirodho), the giving up (caago), relinquishing (pa.tinissaggo), letting go (mutti), and rejecting (anaalayo) of that same craving (tassaayeva ta.nhaaya). This is called the cessation of personality (sakkaaya-nirodho) by the Blessed One." -------------------- [4] "'Sakkaayanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa sakkaayanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa'ti, ayye, vuccati. Katamaa nu kho, ayye, sakkaayanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa vuttaa bhagavataa"ti? "Ayameva kho, aavuso visaakha, ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo sakkaayanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa vuttaa bhagavataa, seyyathida.m sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo sammaavaacaa sammaakammanto sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati sammaasamaadhii"ti. [4] 5. "Lady, 'the way leading to the cessation of personality (sakkaayanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa), the way leading to the cessation of personality (sakkaayanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa)' is said. What is called the way leading to the cessation of personality by the Blessed One?" "Friend Visaakha, it is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration." [Han: As explained above, the first four questions pose an inquiry into the Four Noble Truths expressed in terms of personality (sakkaaya) rather than suffering (dukkha). You will see that the answers to the above four questions are exactly the same as the definitions in SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.] -------------------- [5] "Ta~n~neva nu kho, ayye, upaadaana.m te pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa udaahu a~n~natra pa~ncahupaadaanakkhandhehi upaadaana"nti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, ta~n~neva upaadaana.m te pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa, naapi a~n~natra pa~ncahupaadaanakkhandhehi upaadaana.m. Yo kho, aavuso visaakha, pa~ncasu upaadaanakkhandhesu chandaraago ta.m tattha upaadaana"nti. [5] 6. "Lady, is that clinging the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging (upaadaana.m te pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa), or is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging (udaahu a~n~natra pa~ncahupaadaanakkhandhehi upaadaana)?" "Friend Visaakha, that clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging (na upaadaana.m te pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa), nor is clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging (naapi a~n~natra pa~ncahupaadaanakkhandhehi upaadaana.m). It is the desire and lust (chanda-raago) in regard to the five aggregates affected by clinging that is the clinging (upaadaana) there." [Note 461] [Note 461] MA: Because clinging is only one part of the aggregate of formations (as defined here, greed), it is not the same as the five aggregates; and because clinging cannot be altogether disconnected from the aggregates, there is no clinging apart from the aggregates. [Han: This was a tricky question. Visaakha asked this question mixing up the two Noble Truths of Dukkha saccaa and Samudaya saccaa. Here, a bit of Abhidhamma knowledge is necessary. When one considers the upaadaana, there are four: kaamupaadaana, di.t.thupaadaana, silabbatupaadaana, and attavaadupaadaana. But coming down to the underlying cetasikas of the four upaadaanas there are only two: lobha (ta.nhaa) and di.t.thi. Then looking at the five aggregates, one can find lobha (ta.nhaa) and di.t.thi only in Sa"nkhaarakkhandhaa and not in other aggregates. So, upaadaana (ta.nhaa-di.t.thi) is not the same as the five aggregates, and the clinging to the five aggregates cannot arise if there are no five aggregates. It is like asking "Is Bangkok the same as Thailand, or is it something apart from Thailand?"] To be continued. with metta, Han #126495 From: "azita" Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:06 am Subject: Re: Poland extra gazita2002 hallo Jagkrit and others, the posts from Sarah have been great. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear all > > While Sarah get some rest from her cold, why don't we exercise our Vitaka (thinking) with some dhamma questions on the discussion table with T.A. Sujin -snip- > Before understand the way things are, what are that things? azita: I think this is one of the most important questions, its like if we are to know realities we really need to know what realities are. Yesterday I was talking to someone who knew nothing about Buddha's teaching, and I realised that by telling her there is only the present moment sounded so superficial because the present moment is actually very difficult to know - unless there is some theoretical knowledge of what this really means. I try to gauge how interested another person is before I launch into seeing, hearing etc bec if they are only mildly curious then chat like that puts them off. Most people want 'exciting' stuff not boring old seeing, hearing etc. And I invariably get asked do I meditate so a lot of folk associate the Buddha with only meditation. Patience, courage and good cheer azita #126496 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: Re: Poland extra jagkrit2012 Dear Azita > Az: Yesterday I was talking to someone who knew nothing about Buddha's teaching, and I realised that by telling her there is only the present moment sounded so superficial because the present moment is actually very difficult to know - unless there is some theoretical knowledge of what this really means. ------------------------------- JJ: that's why we have to get back to the other question of what is dhamma ? And is dhamm common to all ? Even those who have Sattha (faith) to study dhamma still find it very difficult to understand the only word "dhamma", not just its definition but real comprehension like you see yourself as you not the other. ---------------- Az: I try to gauge how interested another person is before I launch into seeing, hearing etc bec if they are only mildly curious then chat like that puts them off. Most people want 'exciting' stuff not boring old seeing, hearing etc. And I invariably get asked do I meditate so a lot of folk associate the Buddha with only meditation -------------------- JJ: Don't worry even in our discussion group, our new friend still somehow see meditation is the key and more important than only intellectual understanding. We talked about this topic for some certain degree. And T.A. Sujin always say it is also dhamma and according to conditions. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Venerable Kapila, than you for your kind message. Op 13-sep-2012, om 16:40 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > Btw, Nina, can your husband understand & talk with you.? How do you > help him to not be regrettable..? ------ N:Yes, we shared Dhamma for many years now and for a long time I read Dhamma books to him morning and evening, and also now we continue this. He follows and appreciates my reading to him. He accompanied me on several Pilgrimages in India. Yesterday I read from a talk by Acharn Sujin: Sickness and Death.. ------ Nina. #126498 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:33 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Dåna is a wholesome act, an act of generosity. But when we give are our motives always pure? Do we sometimes give with selfish motives? In order to know whether or not our giving is pure generosity, we should know more about the moments of consciousness which motivate our giving. We are used to paying attention only to the outward appearance of things. We think of people: of the giver and of the receiver, and of the gift itself, but should we not know more about the moments of consciousness which motivate the giving? This is the only way to know what true generosity is. We should learn more about the different moments of consciousness which arise. If we stay ignorant about them we cannot develop wholesomeness. During our journey we often discussed dåna and we began to investigate the different moments of consciousness which arose while giving. When we presented food to the monks we noticed that not only wholesome moments of consciousness arose, but also unwholesome moments of consciousness. We were attached to pleasant sights or to the peace and quiet we felt, or we were pleased with ourselves because of our giving. Sometimes we felt uneasy when we were wondering whether we presented the food in the right way or when we were afraid of spilling the food while offering it. The different moments of consciousness arise and fall away very rapidly and it is hard to know exactly when wholesome consciousness arises and when unwholesome consciousness. When we are sincere we can find out that there are many more unwholesome moments of consciousness than wholesome moments of consciousness. This should not discourage us from doing wholesome deeds, because if we would not perform wholesome deeds there would still be more unwholesomeness. Knowing that there are many more unwholesome moments than wholesome moments is in itself wholesome, because it is the beginning of right understanding. Right understanding is wholesome. --------- Nina. #126499 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) nilovg Dear Han, Op 13-sep-2012, om 22:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Then looking at the five aggregates, one can find lobha (ta.nhaa) > and di.t.thi only in Sa"nkhaarakkhandhaa and not in other > aggregates. So, upaadaana (ta.nhaa-di.t.thi) is not the same as the > five aggregates, and the clinging to the five aggregates cannot > arise if there are no five aggregates. ------- N: THank you very much and I enjoyed the Pali you gave. As to the upaadaanakhandhas, Acharn Sujin stressed that only when there is clinging to the khandhas, thus, at the actual moment of clinging, the five khandhas are upaadaana khandhas. I found this a difficult point, but it shows that we have to consider the present moment, that these passages have nothing to do with abstract theories. I realize that this point is not so easy. What are your considerations? Nina. #126500 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Nina, I completely agree with Acharn Sujin's words that only when there is clinging to the khandhas, at the actual moment of clinging, the five khandhas are upaadaana khandhas. I also am in complete agreement with you that we have to consider the "present moment." This is the same thing as when we abandon the kilesas. Unless they are abandoned without any residue by samuccheda-pahaana with magga ~naa.nas, they are abandoned temporarily by tada"nga-pahaana and vikhambhana-pahaana with vipassanaa ~naa.nas and jhaanas, only when the vipassanaa cittas and jhaana cittas are arising in our mind. This only shows the importance of the "present moment" that you and Sarah always stress. with metta and respect, Han --- On Fri, 9/14/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: Thank you very much and I enjoyed the Pali you gave. As to the upaadaanakhandhas, Acharn Sujin stressed that only when there is clinging to the khandhas, thus, at the actual moment of clinging, the five khandhas are upaadaana khandhas. I found this a difficult point, but it shows that we have to consider the present moment, that these passages have nothing to do with abstract theories. I realize that this point is not so easy. What are your considerations? Nina. #126501 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) nilovg Dear Han, I appreciate your elaborations very much. The present moment! Nina. Op 14-sep-2012, om 11:24 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I completely agree with Acharn Sujin's words that only when there > is clinging to the khandhas, at the actual moment of clinging, the > five khandhas are upaadaana khandhas. > I also am in complete agreement with you that we have to consider > the "present moment." > > This is the same thing as when we abandon the kilesas. Unless they > are abandoned without any residue by samuccheda-pahaana with magga > ~naa.nas, they are abandoned temporarily by tada"nga-pahaana and > vikhambhana-pahaana with vipassanaa ~naa.nas and jhaanas, only when > the vipassanaa cittas and jhaana cittas are arising in our mind. > This only shows the importance of the "present moment" that you and > Sarah always stress. #126502 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:48 am Subject: Poland 11 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Today we had a day's outing to a beautiful river and forest area for discussions, lunch in a lovely restaurant overlooking the river and walk in the forest. This afternoon's discussion was interesting. Khun Sujin said it was time to talk about metta. Mostly addressing Lukas, she talked about attachment vs metta for the 'one you love' and how metta doesn't bring any sadness, grief or heartbreak. If one has metta for the other, one won't get angry at all, one can bear with kusala even when something happens that usually would lead to akusala. One can see how attachment brings dosa, but metta doesn't at all. More understanding leads to more kindness and friendliness than before. When one cares about someone, one wants them to be happy and at peace, without grief. Lukas didn't look convinced and mentioned that it's very difficult to have metta for the ones we're so attached to and quoted the story of Sumana again and her broken heart. A story. We talked about understanding the characteristic of metta so that it can grow and become more of a habit whenever we are with people or beings. Helpful for us all. Later Lukas mentioned he'd felt 'under pressure', but sometimes these are the reminders we need. "Do good, be friendly to have less attachment to self". K.Sujin also mentioned it's not just a matter of reading the Tipitaka and not knowing what's going on in one's life, but being friendly, helpful to others so that there is less clinging to self. The direct understanding of what one reads is now. We had seen an insect on our walk that looked like a cross between a small snake and a worm. What kind of citta did we have when we saw it? Jagkrit's daughter, Dream, asked about 'true love' and the answer was that this was attachment. She'd also raised some good questions earlier about 'catching oneself' and whether attachment in the night club which is more obvious is easier to know. All very lively. On 'catching oneself', always trying to find a self, 'always you!', no understanding of reality. One comment from yesterday (and yes, my cold's much better now) - No matter what one is attached to in this life, it cannot carry on, but the attachment will continue. All accumulations from this life are always kept in one citta after another. "The baggage goes with you", as Ann put it. And here's another one - the pleasant feeling of lunch has now gone completely, forgotten already, like a dream. Just a memory already. Responsibiluty for others, helping with dhamma etc. KS: "Are you responsible for seeing?" Who takes responsibility for the others? It's only thinking. What about taking responsibility for one's own accumulations - accumulating understanding or ignorance. Dhamma is the most interesting subject - all other subjects are only objects of thinking. Hardness appearing at the body-sense. Wrong! No understanding of hardness - it's the idea of "I have body", because the body-sense doesn't appear at all. The same applies to heard, blood and much of what we read in the Visuddhimagga. Whose understanding is it? Finally: "Believe it or not, understanding can understand whatever appears." Metta Sarah ====== #126503 From: "Kalpa" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:46 am Subject: Q. Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. kapilabs Dear Nina. You may explain & describe about six "deva loka" to your husband as much as you can. Meanwhile talk about the end of Dhananjani sutta (Majjima nikaya/majjima pannasaka) And then "Nakulapitu sutta" (sanyutta nikaya/khanda wagga/ khanda sanyutta) to explain about how to have untroubled chitta, while body is troubled..! With metta, kapila. #126504 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:18 am Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 9/12/2012 11:23:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > When my austerity ends, I will definitely consider the Kindle version for > my computer. > > ============================ > In case you are not aware of it, if you have (the free) Kindle apps > on several devices, any Kindle book you buy is readable on all the devices. Thanks Howard, I will keep that in mind. One of these days I hope to be reading on an ipad. My ipad austerity is self-imposed. It's one of those areas where I am not sure it's worth both the expense and subsequent involvement to have another device to deal with, esp. at a time of low budget. I've been extending my desktop, laptop, ipod, cell phone etc. past their normal warranty dates to squeeze the most use out of them - so I am not exactly lacking in devices. But so far I am still tablet-free... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126505 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 12-sep-2012, om 17:05 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I am very sorry to hear about this state of things, Nina, but the > > calm and sense of acceptance in your words is inspiring. I will > > think of you as an example when I have to face such a time, despite > > the sadness. Thanks for letting us know what is happening. Thoughts > > of peace and metta to you and Lodewijk. > ------ > N: Thank you for your kind words. But it all depends on the moment > how I feel conditions. At some moments I am a little trembling. I am > just checking my "Sri Lanka Revisited" and I wrote: < We cling to > ourselves time and again. When we miss someone who is dear to us > there is sadness and this is conditioned by clinging to our own > pleasant feeling, the feeling we derive from being in the company of > that person. When we realize more often our many moments of clinging, > it is the beginning of right understanding and this is beneficial. It > is better to know ourselves than to be ignorant our whole life.> > It is helpful to understand more one's clinging. Clinging to people. > Nina. Thanks, Nina. Those are good notes. It's good to have a way of understanding such things that make up so much of the deep attachment of life. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126506 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:23 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) aungsoeminuk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Dear Nina and Sarah Thank you for your explanation about inner and outer ayaatanas. Phil > N: Manwhile I could add something. I used to find this difficult too. =================================================== Dear Phil, Ven. Kapila, Nina, Sarah and all, There left a thing when conditions _for arising of a citta_were mentioned. 1. for seeing (light) / aaloka 2. for hearing (space) / aakaasa 3. for smelling (air) / vaata 4. for tasting (saliva) / aapa 5. for touching (nerve-complex) / thaddha pathavii 6. for thinking (flow-of-knowing) / bhavanga cittas No light at all no seeing. No space at all no hearing_: Under water we can hear through the media of water which contain space. But when there is vacuum there is no hearing at all. No air no smelling. We pinch our nose when face with foul smell. No saliva no taste. Rub the tougue to dry and put salt on it no taste at all. But when a drop of water is put tasting arise. No nerve no touching. Paraplegic feet cannot sense anything hot, cold, touch, pinprick. When there is active procession of viithi cittas (conscious mind) thinking cannot arise. Thinking just arises after completion of perception. With Unlimited Metta, Dhamma Rakkhita (DMR) / Htoo Tint Naing (Htoo) #126507 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:31 pm Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (2) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (PERSONALITY VIEW) [6] 461. "Katha.m panaayye, sakkaayadi.t.thi hotii"ti? "Idhaavuso visaakha, assutavaa puthujjano, ariyaana.m adassaavii ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme aviniito, sappurisaana.m adassaavii sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme aviniito, ruupa.m attato samanupassati, ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m, attani vaa ruupa.m, ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m. vedana.m [pe] sa~n~na.m [pe] sa"nkhaare [pe] vi~n~naa.na.m attato samanupassati, vi~n~naa.navanta.m vaa attaana.m, attani vaa vi~n~naa.na.m, vi~n~naa.nasmi.m vaa attaana.m. Eva.m kho , aavuso visaakha, sakkaayadi.t.thi hotii"ti. [6] 7. "Lady, how does personality view come to be?" "Here, friend Visaakha, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards material form as self (ruupa.m attato), or self as possessed of material form (ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m), or material form as in self (attani vaa ruupa.m), or self as in material form (ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m). He regards feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He regards perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He regards formations as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations as in self, or self as in formations. He regards consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how personality view comes to be." [Note 462] [Note 462] These are the twenty kinds of personality view. MA quotes Pts 1.144-45 to illustrate the four basic modes of personality view in regard to material form. (i) One may regard material form as self, in the way the flame of a burning oil-lamp is identical with the colour (of the flame) (ruupa.m attato). (ii) Or one may regard self as possessing material form, as a tree possesses a shadow (ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m); (iii) or one may regard material form as in self, as the scent is in the flower (attani vaa ruupa.m); (iv) or one may regard self as in material form, as a jewel is in a casket (ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m). -------------------- Han: The Paa.li text for the twenty kinds of Sakkaaya-di.t.thi can also be found in Dhammasa"nga.nii Paa.li, Nikkhepa ka.n.da, paragraph 1007. 1007. Tattha katamaa sakkaayadi.t.thi? Idha assutavaa puthujjano ariyaana.m adassaavii ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme aviniito sappurisaana.m adassaavii sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme aviniito (i) ruupa.m attato samanupassati, (ii) ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m, (iii) attani vaa ruupa.m, (iv) ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m. (v) Vedana.m attato samanupassati, (vi) vedanaavanta.m vaa attaana.m, (vii) attani vaa vedana.m, (viii) vedanaaya vaa attaana.m. (ix) Sa~n~na.m attato samanupassati, (x) sa~n~naavanta.m vaa attaana.m, (xi) attani vaa sa~n~na.m, (xii) sa~n~naaya vaa attaana.m. (xiii) Sa"nkhaare attato samanupassati, (xiv) sa"nkhaaravanta.m vaa attaana.m, (xv) attani vaa sa"nkhaare, (xvi) sa"nkhaaresu vaa attaana.m. (xvii) Vi~n~naa.na.m attato samanupassati, (xviii) vi~n~naa.navanta.m vaa attaana.m, (xix) attani vaa vi~n~naa.na.m, (xx) vi~n~naa.nasmi.m vaa attaana.m. Yaa evaruupaa di.t.thi di.t.thigata.m di.t.thigahana.m di.t.thikantaaro di.t.thivisuukaayika.m di.t.thivipphandita.m di.t.thisa.myojana.m gaaho pa.tiggaaho abhiniveso paraamaaso kummaggo micchaapatho micchatta.m titthaayatana.m vipariyaasaggaaho – aya.m vuccati sakkaayadi.t.thi. ---------- Han: The Paa.li text for the Commentary on the four basic modes of Sakkaaya-di.t.thi can be found in Dhammasa"nga.nii At.t.hakathaa in same paragraph number, 1007. (i) Ruupa.m attato samanupassatiiti idhekacco ruupa.m attato samanupassati 'ya.m ruupa.m so aha.m, yo aha.m ta.m ruupa'nti ruupa~nca attaana~nca advaya.m samanupassati. "Seyyathaapi naama telappadiipassa jhaayato yaa acci so va.n.no, yo va.n.no saa acciiti acci~nca va.n.na~nca advaya.m samanupassati," evameva idhekacco ruupa.m attato samanupassatiiti eva.m ruupa.m attaati di.t.thipassanaaya passati. (ii) Ruupavanta.m vaa attaananti 'aruupa.m attaa'ti gahetvaa, chaayaavanta.m rukkha.m viya, ta.m ruupavanta.m samanupassati. (iii) Attani vaa ruupanti 'aruupameva attaa'ti gahetvaa, pupphamhi gandha.m viya, attani ruupa.m samanupassati. (iv) Ruupasmi.mvaa attaananti 'aruupameva attaa'ti gahetvaa, kara.n.dake ma.ni.m viya, attaana.m ruupasmi.m samanupassati. Vedanaadiisupi eseva nayo. ---------- Han: Another way of explaining sakkaaya di.t.thi. Sakkaaya = sa + kaaya. "sa" means existing; "kaaya", here, means a group or an aggregate. Thus, "sakkaaya" means "existing groups or aggregates." What aggregates are existing? In the beings with five aggregates (pa~nca-vokaara-bhava), to which the humans belong, there are five aggregates, namely, materiality aggregate (ruupakkhandhaa), feeling aggregate (vedanakkhandhaa), perception aggregate (sa~n~nakkhandhaa), mental formation aggregate (sa"nkhaarakkhandhaa), and consciousness aggregate (vi~n~naa.nakkhandhaa). When one considers these aggregates (that really exist) as "self", or "he" or "she" (that do not really exist), then it becomes a wrong view of "sakkaaya di.t.thi."] ----------------------- [7] "Katha.m panaayye, sakkaayadi.t.thi na hotii"ti? "Idhaavuso visaakha, sutavaa ariyasaavako, ariyaana.m dassaavii ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suviniito, sappurisaana.m dassaavii sappurisadhammassa kovido sappurisadhamme suviniito, na ruupa.m attato samanupassati, na ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m, na attani vaa ruupa.m, na ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m. na vedana.m [pe] na sa~n~na.m [pe] na sa"nkhaare [pe] na vi~n~naa.na.m attato samanupassati, na vi~n~naa.navanta.m vaa attaana.m , na attani vaa vi~n~naa.na.m, na vi~n~naa.nasmi.m vaa attaana.m. Eva.m kho, aavuso visaakha, sakkaayadi.t.thi na hotii"ti. [7] 8. "Lady, how does personality view not come to be?" "Here, friend Visaakha, a well-taught noble disciple, who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who has regard for true men and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, does not regard material form as self (na ruupa.m attato), or self as possessed of material form (na ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m), or material form as in self (na attani vaa ruupa.m), or self as in material form (na ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m). He does not regard feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He does not regard perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He does not regard formations as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations as in self, or self as in formations. He does not regard consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how personality view does not come to be." To be continued. with metta, Han #126508 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:31 pm Subject: Ten Volition 2 - Determination of Doors and Act 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Visud <> Expositor pg 117 to 119 <>  KC #126509 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Ten Volition 2 - Determination of Doors and Act 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Expositor pg119 to 120 <> KC #126510 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:34 pm Subject: Ten Volition 2 - Determination of Doors and Act 3 ashkenn2k Dear all Expositor 122 to 125 <> KC #126511 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) philofillet Hello Htoo > There left a thing when conditions _for arising of a citta_were mentioned. > > 1. for seeing (light) / aaloka Thanks for your further explanation. What rupa is light? A bright light hurts our eyes. Does that mean light is hardness? No, because sound hurts our ears, and sound is not hardness. Or is it? I am confused. Phil #126512 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:02 am Subject: Poland 12 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Just briefly as we're now leaving our hotel by the lake early tomorrow morning to head for Warsaw for the last night, so people who wish to can do some sight-seeing there before we leave. An incredible full day of discussion. We were glad to be joined by a Polish friend, Peter who has been a monk in Burma and Sri Lanka, now back as a lay man living in Warsaw. The main theme for the day was panna "right now, right now", not somewhere else. The goal of this moment should be understanding reality, "no need to go to the meditation centre". Sitting on a cushion here, anywhere, there is seeing, hearing. Can panna know the reality appearing as not self? Bahiya could understand the Dhamma from just a few words because there was detachment from the object as self. The idea of going somewhere for something is the idea of self even thought the purpose might be to have no self. So it's not the way to understand all realities as not self at all. It's not just a matter of studying the Teachings, but following the Teachings. Do not do evil, do good, purify the citta with right understanding. Lukas: How can I start with sila? KS: Now, seeing the value of kusala. L: Is going to the monastery the way to have sila? KS: Is there any understanding gained from the monastery? KS: Can the monks help you to have right understanding? L: Like developing sila. KS: Who is developing sila? L: I am.... KS: This is not the Buddha's Teachings. No One. "I am developing..." is not the Teaching. J: sila without understanding is not what the Buddha taught. L: It's faster KS: Right or Wrong? L: What should I do? KS: Understand reality. To be good with right understanding, not just wanting to have sila, because it's "I" or me. Goodness can be accumulated from now on. Some might just hope to have right understanding and ignore sila, ignore being good in daily life with understanding because it's unwise thinking which thinks to "leave it to conditions", or wishes to have everything for oneself or thinks one needs to do something special. When there's no self, the behavior will be better and better, thinking of the others, knowing all parts of one's accumulations. ***** This afternoon, the session was meant to finish at 5 p.m. At five minutes to 5, Jon asked KS if she had anything to add to the discussion as it was almost time. She then spoke for 45 minutes without any break in a room full of people listening intently to all her reminders about this moment. Some people were sick, some were meditators who disagreed with some of what was said, some were tired, but we all really appreciated her kindness, skill and wisdom as she explained the Dhamma in great detail - dhamma, dhatu, abhidhamma, ayatana, whatever you call it, just reality to be known now. Metta Sarah ===== #126513 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:34 am Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The many different moments of consciousness, cittas, arise because of their own conditions. There is no self who can exert control over the cittas which arise, cittas are beyond control. Even if we tell ourselves; “Now I am going to offer dåna and I wish to have only wholesome cittas”, unwholesome cittas are bound to arise as well. We all have accumulated tendencies to wholesomeness, kusala, as well as tendencies to unwholesomeness, akusala. Thus, there are conditions for the arising of kusala cittas as well as akusala cittas, at different moments. There is no mind which belongs to a “self”, a person. What we take for “my mind” are only different cittas which arise, one at a time, and then fall away, succeeding one another. Different types of citta arise: akusala citta, kusala citta, vipåkacitta (citta which is the result of wholesome action or unwholesome action) and kiriyacitta (citta which is neither cause nor result). We are used to an idea of self who sees, hears, thinks, performs dåna or tells a lie, but in reality there is no self performing such actions, only different cittas that arise one at a time and perform each their own function. Seeing is a function performed by a citta, hearing is another function performed by a citta. When one is generous or tells a lie there is no person who is acting, there are cittas performing their functions. One citta arises at a time, but each citta is accompanied by several mental factors or cetasikas. The cetasikas assist the citta in performing its function. There are many kinds of cetasikas. Some cetasikas such as feeling or remembrance (saññå) accompany every citta, others do not accompany every citta. Akusala cittas are accompanied by akusala cetasikas such as attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa), ignorance (moha), stinginess or jealousy. Kusala cittas are accompanied by sobhana cetasikas (beautiful cetasikas) such as non- attachment (alobha), non-hate (adosa), mindfulness (sati) or wisdom (paññå). Thus, what we take for “my mind” are ever-changing cittas accompanied by cetasikas. We do not only cling to the idea of “my mind”, we also cling to the idea of “my body”. What we take for “my body” are only different physical phenomena, rúpas, which arise and fall away all the time. We do not feel “our body” through touch; it is only hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure that can be experienced through touch; different elements that arise and fall away. -------- Nina. #126514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 2. nilovg Venerable Kapila, Op 14-sep-2012, om 21:46 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > And then "Nakulapitu sutta" (sanyutta nikaya/khanda wagga/ khanda > sanyutta) to explain about how to have untroubled chitta, while > body is troubled..! ------ N: Yes, so often we both quoted this sutta. Lodewijk likes this sutta very much. I shall mention it to him again and tell him that you recommended this. He will apprecitae your reminder. Doctors often forget this. They just look at bodily phenomena, and I tell the doctor that the mind has a great influence. I do not talk about cittas in detail. The doctor keeps on telling me that he won't last long and that he does not understand how I can cope without much help. With respect, Nina. #126515 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - I'm happy you are having a wonderful trip. In a message dated 9/15/2012 1:02:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: The idea of going somewhere for something is the idea of self even thought the purpose might be to have no self. So it's not the way to understand all realities as not self at all. ============================== So, if I might ask (LOL!), did silly Gotama leave the palace?? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 nilovg Hi Howard, Op 15-sep-2012, om 20:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, if I might ask (LOL!), did silly Gotama leave the palace?? ----- THis was very special, he was going to be the sammaa-sambuddha and had developed the perfections for aeons. A good quality is a perfection if there is no thought of having any gain or advantage for oneself. And he did this out of compassion for many beings, not thinking of himself. What Acharn refers to is to people nowadays who want an easy way to reach the goal. Quite different. Nina. #126517 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 15-sep-2012, om 20:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > So, if I might ask (LOL!), did silly Gotama leave the palace?? > ----- > THis was very special, he was going to be the sammaa-sambuddha and > had developed the perfections for aeons. A good quality is a > perfection if there is no thought of having any gain or advantage for > oneself. And he did this out of compassion for many beings, not > thinking of himself. > What Acharn refers to is to people nowadays who want an easy way >to reach the goal. Quite different. >Nina. >=================================================== What about everyone else in His time? Why did they leave lay life and became monks? Why is lay life considered to be dusty, and monk's life as open air? BTW, in the suttas Gotama did NOT leave due to compassion for other sentient beings. He left the palace because he wanted to escape aging, illness and death. When He has become awakened, He didn't even want to teach others, Brahma had to beg Gotama to teach. Before previous life, Gotama-to-be had to be dragged by his hair to see Buddha Kassapa (MN81)... With best wishes, Alex #126518 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/15/2012 3:22:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 15-sep-2012, om 20:44 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > So, if I might ask (LOL!), did silly Gotama leave the palace?? ----- THis was very special, he was going to be the sammaa-sambuddha and had developed the perfections for aeons. A good quality is a perfection if there is no thought of having any gain or advantage for oneself. And he did this out of compassion for many beings, not thinking of himself. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: Whether he knew or not that he was the buddha-to-be, and the texts that talk about Gotama at the palace don't seem to indicate that Gotama knew that, my *point* is that he willfully left the palace rather than just sticking around observing whatever dhammas happened to arise. Instead, he went of to seek seclusion and training. He first went for (absorptive) jhana training from several brahmans, which seems odd for one who has developed perfections over aeons and knows himself to be a bodhisatta. This doesn't ring true to me, Nina. The bottom line of my inquiry is: Why were the dhammas at the palace not good enough for Gotama? (Sarah had stated "The idea of going somewhere for something is the idea of self even thought the purpose might be to have no self. So it's not the way to understand all realities as not self at all.") One more side point: If a person had no sense of self, s/he would already be fully awakened. So criticizing acting while there is a sense of self is to disapprove of any non-arahant taking any actions at all. ------------------------------------------------- What Acharn refers to is to people nowadays who want an easy way to reach the goal. Quite different. Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126519 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 philofillet Hi Howard, Sarah all I think it is best to stress greed (lobha) in addition to wrong view of self. In this day and age we are conditioned to expect and demand results from what we do in life,our projects, and this greed runs contrary to the Buddha's path - cittas rooted in greed cannot give rise to kusala. So we have to have the conditions to understand the adze handle, people who go somewhere seeking enlightenment in this day and age do not understand. We are inflicted with a modern disease that places great weight on personal achievment. The degree to which we are honest in acknowledging this greed and understanding that it is not "chanda" in its kusala form is the degree to which...i'll abandon this here. Howard, Akex and others won't agree because they haven't acknowledged that srlf-rooted greed for results, yet. IMCO, of course. (the c stands for correct.) phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > I'm happy you are having a wonderful trip. > > In a message dated 9/15/2012 1:02:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > The idea of going somewhere for something is the idea of self even thought > the purpose might be to have no self. So it's not the way to understand > all realities as not self at all. > ============================== > So, if I might ask (LOL!), did silly Gotama leave the palace?? > > With metta, > Howard > > > Seamless Interdependence > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > > > > > #126520 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 philofillet Hi again all Pre-emptively, I refer to the "using conceit to get rid of conceit" sutta. It is attractive, that one, but I think the point of it is the part about burning the bridge to sex, it can't be used as justification for using greed to get rid of greed. phil #126521 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 truth_aerator Hello Phil, all, There is nothing wrong in doing things for results. If one doesn't want results than one may not put forth as much effort to contemplate the Dhamma. Saying that "results will come after many many lives" is almost equivalent to saying that this path doesn't work. With best wishes, Alex #126522 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:35 pm Subject: Re: The site of ancient Kapilavastu thomaslaw03 Hi It seems that the site of ancient Kapilavastu is in Tilaurakot (Nepal), not in Piprahwa (India), receives more supports. This is because the recent archaeological findings by the UK excavation co-director Robin Coningham: www.archaeology.org/0103/newsbriefs/buddha.html (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilavastu) Thomas Law #126523 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 jagkrit2012 Dear Nina, Howard, Phil and all I Just love the question for us to think more and more until its clear. Starting by Howard's question: why did the Buddha at the time leave his palace to find the noble truth? After he left, why he went to study with 2 wrong view masters where he got nothing from there? Why he tortured himself 6 full years to get to know the noble truth afterward and got nothing? At the time of his enlightenment, what is the real reason for his enlightenment, curtianly not about what he did after he left his palace? What did he mean by the middle way to get enlightenment and did he mention about some spicial factor of place? In the past, some Buddha enlightened even when he was a king, how can that be? Anumodhana Jagkrit #126524 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 aungsoeminuk Dear Jagkrit and all Dhamma Friends, Here is my input to DSG. =================================================================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > Dear Nina, Howard, Phil and all >I Just love the question for us to think more and more until its clear. ==================================== Starting by Howard's question: why did the Buddha at the time leave his palace to find the noble truth? ==================================== Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing): Mahaapuurisa (Siddhattha) left his place because it was the right time, high time, optimal time. Otherwise binding or bondage (bandana) was coming and he would not have done what he had to. ================================================================== > After he left, why he went to study with 2 wrong view masters where he got nothing from there? ==================================== Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) Mahaapuurisa (Siddhattha) went to there because those two masters were the most prominent at that time. That was no one excelled them at that time. What happening was that there was Buddha-kolaahala (news that Sammaasambuddha was to appear) 1000 years before Buddha arose. People of high esteen assumed themselves as pro-Buddha or Bodhisatta and they left human society in order to find higher Dhamma to become Buddha. Siddha approached them each and found nothing interesting except those two master. Those masters calm the Pariyu.t.thaana kilesas (defilements). He achieved 7th from the first and 8th jhaana from the second master in a matter of short period. But their jhaana lack non-death essence. Therefore he had to leave again as in cases of other pseudo-masters. ==================================================================== > Why he tortured himself 6 full years to get to know the noble truth afterward and got nothing? ================================== Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) Because torture was the most respectable practice at that time. 6-year-practice was dukkara cariya (the practice the can hardly be done). This is to show maximal power of will that he wanted to become a sammaasambuddha. He in his past lives also practised tortural things but departed just before he died in those specific lives. Boddhisatta never had mis-concept. ==================================================================== > At the time of his enlightenment, what is the real reason for his enlightenment, curtianly not about what he did after he left his palace? ======================================= Dhammarakkhita (DMR) Htoo (Htoo Naing) Real reason was to save those who were just about to be liberated. In the absence of Buddha those people would not be liberated. ================================================================== > What did he mean by the middle way to get enlightenment and did he mention about some spicial factor of place? ======================================= Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) Middle way does not mean the way at mid-point of two opposite ways. But middle way is not extreme in view of both extreme ways. Extreme ways are easy-going way and hard-going ways. ================================================================ > In the past, some Buddha enlightened even when he was a king, how can that be? > Anumodhana > Jagkrit ===================================== Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) Every Boddhisatta has to pass through dukkara cariyaa from 6 days to 6 months. Gotama Budhha was the exception because of vipaaka. He declared at the time of Kassapa Buddha that he would be practising dukkara cariyaa for 6 years while Kassapa Buddha did for 6 months. Nikkhamma or forest-going (leaving human society for a while is necessary to become a Buddha. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing (Dhammarakkhita_DMR) #126525 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:33 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) aungsoeminuk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hello Htoo > There left a thing when conditions _for arising of a citta_were mentioned. > 1. for seeing (light) / aaloka > Thanks for your further explanation. What rupa is light? A bright light hurts our eyes. Does that mean light is hardness? No, because sound hurts our ears, and sound is not hardness. Or is it? I am confused. > Phil ==================================== Htoo (Htoo Naing = Dhammarakkhita = DMR) : Dear Philip, Light is also ruupa. The word light itself is pa~n~natti. That word makes listeners understand what light is. Light is ruupaayatana. Light is ruupadhaatu. Light itself can serve as an object. It is perceived through the eye-door. Still there is light which cannot be perceived. Examples are infrared and ultraviolet. They cannot be perceived even though they reach the eye and retina. I mean cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na does not arise. Light as we assume does contain pathavii, tejo, aapo, and vaayo. But tejo is dominent. Sound hurt ears when decible is high. But sound is not pathavii or earth-element. Still there is sound that human cannot perceive. Such as ultrasound. Low frequency and high frequency sound that is the sound which goes beyound the range or audible frequency cannot perform as an object. This is true even though jhaanalaabhis can know those sound at actual time through manodvaara or through mental power not through ears. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing (Dhammarakkhita) #126526 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 philofillet Hello Alex, all The fact, though, is that the desire for results must be kusala. It cannot be rooted in akusala (lobha.) That's the unfortunate catch, but it's best to understand the truth. I know you like TB's gym metaphor, so you will disagree. Until it clicks... phil #126527 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 kenhowardau Hi Jagkrit, Howard and Htoo, Thanks for the questions and answers. Here are my efforts: ------- > J: I Just love the question for us to think more and more until its clear. Starting by Howard's question: why did the Buddha at the time leave his palace to find the noble truth? ------ KH: This question cannot be constructively discussed until there is an understanding of anatta. We must know that there have never been any Buddhas apart from conditioned dhammas. Conditioned dhammas are anatta –impersonal - and therefore non-human. They are all that exist in the world. There has never been (and there never can be) a human being, a luxurious palace, or an unpleasant land surrounding a palace. However, there has been (and can be)a conditioned dhamma known as panna that rejects the two extremes in preference for a middle way. -------------- > J: After he left, why he went to study with 2 wrong view masters where he got nothing from there? Why he tortured himself 6 full years to get to know the noble truth afterward and got nothing? -------------- KH: Here again we learn about a conditioned dhamma, panna, rejecting the two extremes. ----------------------- > J: At the time of his enlightenment, what is the real reason for his enlightenment, curtianly not about what he did after he left his palace? What did he mean by the middle way to get enlightenment and did he mention about some spicial factor of place? In the past, some Buddha enlightened even when he was a king, how can that be? ----------------------- KH: The highest form of panna can discover the Dhamma even when it has not been taught *and* it can initiate the teaching of that Dhamma. It does so by conditions – in the absence of any sentient teacher or student. Whatever those conditions are, they are the ones that must arise before the highest form of panna can appear in the world. Ken H #126528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:53 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, The realities of our life are only citta, cetasika and rúpa, elements that are impermanent and devoid of self. Citta and cetasika are mental, they experience or know something, they are nåma. Physical phenomena or rúpa do not know anything. Through the teachings we learn that our life consists of nåma and rúpa, but, as Acharn Sujin often said, they are “not in the book”. They are realities occurring at this moment. We should find out whether the citta at this moment is kusala citta or akusala citta. When the citta is kusala citta it has to be accompanied by alobha, non-attachment, and adosa, non- aversion or kindness. It may or may not be accompanied by paññå, understanding. When the citta is kusala citta, there cannot be lobha or dosa at the same time. When we perform deeds of generosity, do also moments of lobha or dosa arise in between the moments of kusala cittas? What is the motive of our giving? Do we expect something in return? Are we giving “with strings attached”? Do we hope that the receiver will do something for us? Do we give because we want others to have a high opinion of us? Do we want to be known as a generous person? Many times our motives are not pure. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Eights, Ch IV, § 3 [1]) about different reasons for giving: “There are eight reasons for giving. What eight? People may give out of affection; or in an angry mood; out of stupidity; out of fear; or because they think: ‘Such gifts have been given before by my father and grandfather; hence it will be unworthy of me to give up this old family tradition’; or because of thinking, ‘By giving this gift, I shall-- after the body’s break up, after death-- be reborn in a happy realm of existence, in a heavenly world’; or because of thinking, ‘When giving this gift, my heart will be glad, and happiness and joy will arise in me’; or one gives because it ennobles and adorns the mind.” We may give out of affection. One gives because one likes to give. When we like to give, there may be attachment and partiality. One gives to this person, but not to that person. Husband and wife generally give to each other with attachment. There may also be moments of generosity but there are likely to be many moments of attachment. When true generosity arises, one gives impartially; one does not restrict one’s giving to people one likes, such as husband or wife, or the members of one’s family. When my husband gives me dresses or jewelry, there are likely to be many cittas rooted in lobha: he enjoys seeing me in these dresses and with that jewelry. -------- [1]: I am using the translation of Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel Publication, 238-240. ---------- Nina. #126529 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:00 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) philofillet Dear Htoo > > Light is also ruupa. The word light itself is pa~n~natti. , > > Sound hurt ears when decible is high. But sound is not pathavii or earth-element Thank you for the clear explanation. Phil #126530 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:04 pm Subject: Re: Poland 12 philofillet Hi Sarah and all > > This afternoon, the session was meant to finish at 5 p.m. At five minutes to 5, Jon asked KS if she had anything to add to the discussion as it was almost time. She then spoke for 45 minutes without any break in a room full of people listening intently to all her reminders about this moment. Some people were sick, some were meditators who disagreed with some of what was said, some were tired, but we all really appreciated her kindness, skill and wisdom as she explained the Dhamma in great detail - dhamma, dhatu, abhidhamma, ayatana, whatever you call it, just reality to be known now. Wow, sounds fantastic. As you know, I love it when A.Sujin talks for even 10 minutes without stopping, I have never heard such a long talk in any of the recordings. I know there is a backlog of talks to edit (looking forward to KK12!) but I wonder if you would consider making an exception and putting this closing talk up unedited, sooner...just an idea... Phil #126531 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:17 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? philofillet Dear Group, Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "When one has right understanding of the citta that sees, the citta that hears or the citta that thinks, satipatthaana can arise and be aware of the characteristics of citta at that moment, and it can be known as the reality, the element that experiences something."(55) (end of passage) Ph: Does "right understanding of the citta (that sees)" mean intellectual understanding of seeing learned from the texts and by listening to the good Dhamma friend. Or does it refer to previous moments of satipatthana? Or both? Phil #126532 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:34 pm Subject: Re: Poland 12 sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, > Wow, sounds fantastic. As you know, I love it when A.Sujin talks for even 10 minutes without stopping, I have never heard such a long talk in any of the recordings. I know there is a backlog of talks to edit (looking forward to KK12!) but I wonder if you would consider making an exception and putting this closing talk up unedited, sooner...just an idea.... .... S: Good idea, will try to do so......actually will try to do a minimal 1st edit of the whole lot so that it might get there in two months rather than two years or sooner! Arrived in Warsaw now, one last discussion this afternoon - hopefully with the Polish guys too. Alberto's just left for Italy and the rest of us go our various ways tomorrow. I caught the tail end of a chat about addictions of various kinds at lunch-time which Lukas and Alberto had been having with Ajahn. On the bus trip into Warsaw, various topics were discussed including more on sila and 'being good' with understanding and I brought up a few of Luraya's qus too. Maybe more later. Metta Sarah ==== #126533 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 sarahprocter... Hi Howard, On the bus, I raised your point >________________________________ > From: "upasaka@..." >S:The idea of going somewhere for something is the idea of self even though >the purpose might be to have no self. So it's not the way to understand >all realities as not self at all. >============================== >H: So, if I might ask (LOL!), did silly Gotama leave the palace?? ... KS made a comment about the Bodhisatta's understanding as compared to our understanding. Metta Sarah ===== #126534 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:48 pm Subject: Re: considering the dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Luraya, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Luraya Lukas wrote: > > in one discourse with ajahn sujin the topic is coming to considering the dhamma and i get confused: > > "if there is considering without any understanding or with wrong understanding we cannot call it right considering of the dhamma." > > but if there is no understanding yet, how can we ever consider righltly? i thought understanding was developed through considering. .... KS: Correctly and wisely, not incorrectly. metta Sarah ====== #126535 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ajahn naeb sarahprocter... Dear Luraya, > >L: recently i read a discourse from ajahn naeb (translated by ajahn > > sujin) and i have got one practical question. > > ajahn naeb said: > > "The > > practitioner must first understand thoroughly mental states and > > matter, otherwise, insight cannot occur. during development of > > insight we must be aware of mental states and matter, so that we may > > perceive their characteristics. > > > > Only after we have thoroughly > > understood mental states and matter, should we commence with the > > development of awareness of them." .... KS: When there is no understanding of mental states at all, there is no awareness. Metta Sarah ====== #126536 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:54 pm Subject: Re: thinking about seeing sarahprocter... Hi Luraya, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Luraya Lukas wrote: > when i am thinking about visible object when it appears, it is thinking. i can think about that thinking is thinking. there are all these concepts. and when i am thinking of that i feel like that there is the wanting to be aware right here and now. what to do, also just see that it is a conditioned reality? .... KS: Can she do that? S: Just imagines.... KS: Yes ... > > it is so helpful to listen to the discourses with ajahn sujin and at the same time there is that habbit pattern of the mind that wants to grab everything, now :) > so difficult .... KS: Certainly, correct. Metta Sarah p.s one of the discussions on the bus near the start was about making excuses. if one says "I'm late for the bus because I didn't wake up - conditioned dhammas, anatta" it's just an excuse, not doing one's best. An idea of self behind it. ======= ===== #126537 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Sarah, Alex, and all) - In a message dated 9/15/2012 8:01:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard, Sarah all I think it is best to stress greed (lobha) in addition to wrong view of self. In this day and age we are conditioned to expect and demand results from what we do in life,our projects, and this greed runs contrary to the Buddha's path - cittas rooted in greed cannot give rise to kusala. So we have to have the conditions to understand the adze handle, people who go somewhere seeking enlightenment in this day and age do not understand. We are inflicted with a modern disease that places great weight on personal achievment. The degree to which we are honest in acknowledging this greed and understanding that it is not "chanda" in its kusala form is the degree to which...i'll abandon this here. Howard, Akex and others won't agree because they haven't acknowledged that srlf-rooted greed for results, yet. IMCO, of course. (the c stands for correct.) phil ============================= Actually, I do agree that greed plays a major role even in desiring what is good and proper for us, for we are afflicted with greed and sense of self. But reaching the end of the road must start where we are, and it is not useful, I believe, to pretend that we are without affliction. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126538 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:58 pm Subject: Re: meditation sarahprocter... Hi Luraya, 5 mins before the next discussion, so briefly... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Luraya Lukas wrote: > another question arose while meditating: > after having listened to some discourses i usually sit and reflect upon what i have heard or observe how thoughts and feelings are arising and falling away. > nowdays i feel there is less attachment in the meditation than there was before but i don't see why there should be more attachment while meditating than when listening to the dhamma. i am listening because "i" want to understand, which already is wrong understaning. > but do you think that meditation itself can be "harmful" in order to develop understanding? ... KS: No need to look for understanding anything else, but seeing now, reality now is the object in daily life. It depends what everyone thinks about meditation and what it is. Why don't people think about right understanding instead of meditation. Bhavana means right understanding. L: Ignorance KS: And attachment. Metta Sarah p.s Perhaps next year we'll all come to Sweden to meet you, so you can ask your questions directly! ====== #126539 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 truth_aerator Hello Phil, Howard, all, >P:The fact, though, is that the desire for results must be kusala. >It >cannot be rooted in akusala (lobha.) That's the unfortunate >catch, but >it's best to understand the truth. I know you like TB's >gym metaphor, >so you will disagree. Until it clicks... >==================================================== "And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned." "And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html "Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html That is what the suttas (AN 4.159 and SN 51.15) say. With best wishes, Alex #126540 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:05 am Subject: Poland 13 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Another good discussion, our last arranged discussion. The Polish guys all turned up - Lukas, Michael (who lives partly in Bangkok), Peter (who used to be a monk and also lives in Warsaw), and Wojciech (pronounced 'Voytech', who has been with us all week). Vojciech brought his soon-to-be-wife Maya with him today as well. They all have excellent English and there were lots of, often quite heated, meditation/bhavana discussions. Ajahn was tired so we all spoke up and discussed a lot about conventional vs absolute realities, concentration and so on. I was especially impressed that Wojciech came today as I know how sick he was feeling as well. Lukas now has several good friends in Warsaw to have dhamma discussions with. No lack of topics to discuss. We really have been fortunate to have such lovely discussions with so many good friends, especially Khun Sujin of course. "Just develop understanding of reality now!", she stressed at the end. Alberto, Wojciech, Lukas, Ann, Jon, Michael, Peter, any Thai friends - any summaries of impressions or comments to add to Jakgrit's and mine would be appreciated by all, I'm sure. Metta Sarah ===== #126541 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 jagkrit2012 Dear Ven. Htoo Thank you very much for you kind effort answering my questions. > Starting by Howard's question: why did the Buddha at the time leave his palace to find the noble truth? > Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing): > > Mahaapuurisa (Siddhattha) left his place because it was the right time, high time, optimal time. Otherwise binding or bondage (bandana) was coming and he would not have done what he had to. > --------------------------------- JJ. It should be according to the right conditions as you mention for him to leave. Not before or after. Not only his intention to go? ================================================================== > > After he left, why he went to study with 2 wrong view masters where he got nothing from there? > > Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) > > Mahaapuurisa (Siddhattha) went to there because those two masters were the most prominent at that time. That was no one excelled them at that time. What happening was that there was Buddha-kolaahala (news that Sammaasambuddha was to appear) 1000 years before Buddha arose. People of high esteen assumed themselves as pro-Buddha or Bodhisatta and they left human society in order to find higher Dhamma to become Buddha. Siddha approached them each and found nothing interesting except those two master. Those masters calm the Pariyu.t.thaana kilesas (defilements). He achieved 7th from the first and 8th jhaana from the second master in a matter of short period. But their jhaana lack non-death essence. Therefore he had to leave again as in cases of other pseudo-masters. ------------------------ JJ: Even today there're still many masters who claim to be prominent in dhammas. One should be aware of each of their teaching whether conforms to the Tipitika or just their own idea of adapted understanding ================================================================== > > Why he tortured himself 6 full years to get to know the noble truth afterward and got nothing? > > Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) > > Because torture was the most respectable practice at that time. 6-year-practice was dukkara cariya (the practice the can hardly be done). This is to show maximal power of will that he wanted to become a sammaasambuddha. He in his past lives also practised tortural things but departed just before he died in those specific lives. Boddhisatta never had mis-concept. > ----------------------------- JJ: I think we are just Savaka (followers). If we are have reason enough, we in our time don't have to pass any torture like that like sit or walk or doing something unnatural to get panna. ================================================================== > > At the time of his enlightenment, what is the real reason for his enlightenment, curtianly not about what he did after he left his palace? > > Dhammarakkhita (DMR) Htoo (Htoo Naing) > > Real reason was to save those who were just about to be liberated. In the absence of Buddha those people would not be liberate. ---------------------- JJ: should be underline reason to be Budha. And I think he enlightened by his accumulated panna which is Citta not concern of any Rupa. > ================================================================== > > What did he mean by the middle way to get enlightenment and did he mention about some spicial factor of place? > > Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) > > Middle way does not mean the way at mid-point of two opposite ways. But middle way is not extreme in view of both extreme ways. Extreme ways are easy-going way and hard-going ways. ------------------------- JJ: is that 8 fold path? Which all are Samma (right) Makkah (path). > ================================================================ > > In the past, some Buddha enlightened even when he was a king, how can that be? > > Dhammarakkhita (DMR) / Htoo (Htoo Naing) > > Every Boddhisatta has to pass through dukkara cariyaa from 6 days to 6 months. Gotama Budhha was the exception because of vipaaka. He declared at the time of Kassapa Buddha that he would be practising dukkara cariyaa for 6 years while Kassapa Buddha did for 6 months. > > Nikkhamma or forest-going (leaving human society for a while is necessary to become a Buddha. ---------------------------- JJ: also going to the forest by his conditions, which is particular to Gotama not lay people? Anumodhana Jagkrit #126542 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 jagkrit2012 Dear Ken H Thank you for you sharing and explanation. I agree with you that all the Buddha did is according to conditions, never reflected by conventional understanding that he intended to do this or do that for his enlightenment. And we shall not assume that his patterns can be imitated to get any of the result. Otherwise, he would not spend long long time to reach the noble truth. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126543 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:48 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (3) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH) [8] 462. "Katamo panaayye, ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo"ti? "Ayameva kho, aavuso visaakha, ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo, seyyathida.m sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo sammaavaacaa sammaakammanto sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati sammaasamaadhii"ti. [8] "9. Lady, what is the Noble Eightfold Path?" "Friend Visaakha, it is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration." ---------------------- [9] "Ariyo panaayye, a.t.tha"ngiko maggo sa"nkhato udaahu asa"nkhato"ti? "Ariyo kho, aavuso visaakha, a.t.tha"ngiko maggo sa"nkhato"ti . [9] 10."Lady, is the Noble Eightfold Path conditioned (sa"nkhato) or unconditioned (asa"nkhato)?" "Friend Visaakha, the Noble Eightfold Path is conditioned (sa"nkhato)." ---------------------- [10] "Ariyena nu kho, ayye, a.t.tha"ngikena maggena tayo khandhaa sa"ngahitaa udaahu tiihi khandhehi ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo sa"ngahito"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, ariyena a.t.tha"ngikena maggena tayo khandhaa sa"ngahitaa; tiihi ca kho, aavuso visaakha, khandhehi ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo sa"ngahito. Yaa caavuso visaakha, sammaavaacaa yo ca sammaakammanto yo ca sammaaaajiivo ime dhammaa siilakkhandhe sa"ngahitaa. Yo ca sammaavaayaamo yaa ca sammaasati yo ca sammaasamaadhi ime dhammaa samaadhikkhandhe sa"ngahitaa. Yaa ca sammaadi.t.thi yo ca sammaasa"nkappo, ime dhammaa pa~n~naakkhandhe sa"ngahitaa"ti. [10] 11. "Lady, are the three aggregates included by the Noble Eightfold Path, or is the Noble Eightfold Path included by the three aggregates?" [Note 463] "The three aggregates are not included by the Noble Eightfold Path, friend Visaakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood - these states are included in the aggregate of virtue (siilakkhandhaa). Right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration - these states are included in the aggregate of concentration (samaadhikkhandhaa). Right view and right intention - these states are included in the aggregate of wisdom (pa~n~naakkhandhaa)." [Note 463] The word khandha here has a different meaning than in the more common context of the five aggregates affected by clinging. It here refers to a body of training principles, the three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path into virtue (siila), concentration (samaadhi), and wisdom (pa~n~na). --------------------- To be continued. with metta, Han #126544 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:30 am Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thank you very much for sharing this interesting series with your comments and Pali. I look forward to reading it and all posts more carefully when I have a chance to print them out and am back in Hong Kong on Tuesday. I do hope you are keeping well and often think of you. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > MN 44 Cuu.lavedalla Sutta is an interesting sutta. To start with, the two main characters, Visaakha and Dhammadinnaa, are interesting. As the story goes: <.....> #126545 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:40 am Subject: Ten Volition 2 - Determination of Doors and Act 4 ashkenn2k Dear all Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary <> KC #126546 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:48 am Subject: Ten Volition 2 - Determination of Doors and Act 5 ashkenn2k Dear all Expositor <> KC #126547 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:00 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) dhammasaro Good friend Dr. Han Tun, et al It is very good to observe your excellent contributions here at DSG. Please continue. Peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ..................................................... rest deleted by Chuck ................................................................ #126548 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am glad that you read my posts. I want to request you two things: (1) Please correct me if my comments are wrong. (2) Please add additional information that you may have. My physical condition is deteriorating slowly. All my major illnesses are under control. But I have general weakness of all my muscles in the whole body. I cannot walk as fast as and as far as before. Besides, I feel dizzy when I get up and when I walk. So when I go out alone, I wear a tag around my neck bearing my name and telephone numbers to contact. I also keep a mobile phone in my shirt pocket. Fortunately, my mental condition is still good. with metta and respect, Han --- On Mon, 9/17/12, sarah wrote: Dear Han, Thank you very much for sharing this interesting series with your comments and Pali. I look forward to reading it and all posts more carefully when I have a chance to print them out and am back in Hong Kong on Tuesday. I do hope you are keeping well and often think of you. Metta Sarah #126549 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:41 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Chuck, Thank you very much for your kind words and appreciation. I will finish this sutta and another sutta to come later. with metta and respect, Han --- On Mon, 9/17/12, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: Good friend Dr. Han Tun, et al It is very good to observe your excellent contributions here at DSG. Please continue. Peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #126550 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 philofillet Hi Alex (Howard, all) I knew you'd pull that one out, since as far as I know there is no other sutta that seems to praise unwholesomeness. If you wish to place all the weight of practices rooted in greed for fast (i.e this lifetime) results on the shoulders of two sutta passages (as for the other one, do you honestly believe a worldling aspiring to arahantship is anything other than a fool?) that is your option of course. Keep looking honestly for the eagerness with which you latch on to them. (i.e greed.) I do believe understanding will click on that someday. In the meantime, carry on with your craving....last sutta snipping to you. phil #126551 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 truth_aerator Hi Phil, all, Do you have an actual reply? We need to start from where we are. Fetters of sensual greed and dosa are eradicated at Anagami stage. So if one has negative qualities, it is best to use them to one's advantage as much as possible. We need to start from where we are and slowly change for the better. >I knew you'd pull that one out, since as far as I know there is no >other sutta that seems to praise unwholesomeness. >========================================= Many suttas speak about putting forth effort as if one where to extinguish fire on one's head. It doesn't talk about "let it all happen". ""Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence."' That's how you should train yourselves."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html To me it seems that NOT to put effort = unwholesomeness. with best wishes, Alex #126552 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:57 am Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors ashkenn2k Dear all Summary to the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 273 <<35. Awakening is what awakens; that is, the meditator, begining with the one who has established initial insight. Alternatively, a awakening is the assemblage of dhammas consisting of mindfulness, etc, by means of which he awakens to, penetrates the truths, or [by means of which] he emerges from the sleep of defilements, or [by means of which] in the absence of the withering caused by defilements, he blossoms by attaining the path and fruit. The awakening factors are the the limbs, are the causes, of htat one who is awaken or of that [assemblage constituting] awakening. But as dhammas, there are seven, so he states the words begining the mindfullness awakening factor>> Dispeller of Delusion <<1513. As regards satisambojjhango ("mindfulness awakening factor") and so on, an extolled, excellent bojjhahga is a sambojjhanga. Mindfulness itself as an awakening factor is the "mindfulness awakening factor". Herein, the mindfulness awakening factor has the characteristic of establishing. The investigation-of-states awakening factor has the characteristic of investigation.' The energy awakening factor has the characteristic of exertion. The rapture awakening factor has the characteristic of pervasion. The tranquillity awakening factor has the characteristic of calming. The concentration awakening factor has the characteristic of non-wavering. The equanimity awakening factor has the characteristic of reflection. 1515. But why are they stated as just seven, neither less nor more? Because of their opposition to [the extremes of] sluggishness and agitation, and because of all-helpfulness. For here, three awakening factors are opposed to sluggishness, according as it is said: 'And when, bhikkkhus, the mind is sluggish, then is the time for the development of the investigation-of-states awakening factor, the time for the development of the energy awakening factor, the time for the development of the rapture awakening factor' (S v 113). And three are opposed to agitation, according as it is said: 'And when, bhikkhus, the mind is agitated, then is the time for the development of the tranquillity awakening factor, the time for the development of the concentration awakening factor, the time for the development of the equanimity awakening factor' (S v 114).>> KC #126553 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:05 am Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Mindfullness 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion Under the subject of Seven Awakening Factors <<1514. [311] As regards these, because of the words: 'Mindfulness, bhikkhus, is all-helpful, I say' (S v 115), the mindfulness awakening factor is stated first because of its helpfulness to all the [remaining] awakening factors. Besides that, according to the method beginning: "Dwelling thus mindful, he investigates that state with understanding" (M iii 85; S v 68, etc.), their linking by setting them forth in series thus has been handed down in the Pali, too. 1516. One, however, is all-helpful here because it is desirable with regard to all the awakening factors like the seasoning of salt in all curries, like the minister of all work in the king's duties, according as it is said: 'Mindfulness, bhikkhus, is all-helpful (sabbatthika), I say' (S vH5).>> Under the Subject of Satipatthana <<1304. As regards yatha ca anuppannassa (199.33) ("andhow there comes to be the arising of the unarisen "), however, firstly the arising of the mindfulness awakening factor comes about thus: There are states productive of the mindfulness enlightenment factor, bhikkhus. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen mindfulness factor, or leads to the growth, increase, development and perfection of the arisen mindfulness enlightenment factor' (S v 65). 1305. Herein, "states productive of the mindfulness enlightenment factor" are mindfulness itself. Wise bringing to mind has the characteristics already stated. Because of employing it much in regard to that, the mindfulness enlightenment factor arises.>> KC #126554 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:14 am Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Mindfullness 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion - Under the subject of Satipatthana <<1306. Furthermore, four things lead to the arising of the mindfulness enlightenment factor: (1) mindfulness and clear comprehension, (2) avoidance of unmindful persons, (3) cultivation of persons whose mindfulness is established, (4) being resolved thereon. 1307. The mindfulness enlightenment factor arises (1) through mindfulness and clear comprehension regarding the seven instances beginning with "moving forward", etc., (2) by the avoidance of persons who are unmindful, like crows round food that has been thrown away, (3) by the cultivation of persons whose mindfulness is established, like the Elder Tissadatta and the Elder Abhaya, and (4) through the tending, inclining and leaning of the mind thereto for the purpose of arousing mindfulness while standing, sitting, etc. 1308. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path that there comes to be the perfection through development of that [mindfulness enlightenment factor] which has arisen by means of these four things.>> Dispeller of Delusion under the subject Awakening Factors <<1520. But why is understanding included in this division dealing with mindfulness? In order to indicate a strong state of mindfulness. For mindfulness arises both with and without understanding. When it arises with understanding, it is strong; when it arises without it, it is weak. That is why understanding is included in order to indicate a strong state. For just as two king's ministers might wait in two directions, and oneof them might wait with a prince and the other relying on his own nature (dhammata), then of these, he who waits with the prince has both his own and the prince's strength; [but] he who waits alone is not equal in strength; so indeed, like the king's minister who waits with the prince is mindfulness arisen with understanding; like he who waits relying on his own nature is that arisen without understanding. Herein, just as the king's minister who waits with the prince has both his own and the prince's strength, so mindfulness arisen with understanding is strong. Just as he who waits alone is not equal in strength, so that which is arisen without understanding is weak. Thus understanding is included in order to indicate strength.>> KC #126555 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:06 pm Subject: Twin Miracle (yamakapaa.tihaariya) hantun1 Dear Friends, The Buddha has performed the Twin Miracle (yamakapaa.tihaariya) on several occasions during his lifetime. The first time was when he visited Kapilvatthu. When the conceited elderly Saakyas sat at the back without paying respect to him, he performed the Twin Miracle to subdue their pride. King Suddhodana, seeing this wonderful phenomenon, saluted him immediately, saying that it was his third salutation. [He saluted him for the first time when he saw the infant prince's feet rest on the head of Ascetic Asita whom he wanted the child to revere. His second salutation took place at the Ploughing Festival when he saw the infant prince seated cross-legged on the couch, absorbed in meditation.] Source: The Buddha and His Teachings by Narada Mahaathera. -------------------- The next time was at Saavatthi. I find this account in Buddhist Dictionary of Pali Proper Names. http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/Pali-Proper-Names/yamaka_paatihaariya.htm Yamaka paa.tihaariya (Twin Miracle) When the Buddha laid down a rule forbidding the exercise of supernatural powers by monks, following on the miracle performed by Pindola Bhaaradvaaja, the heretics went about saying that henceforth they would perform no miracles except with the Buddha. Bimbisaara reported this to the Buddha, who at once accepted the challenge, explaining that the rule was for his disciples and did not apply to himself. He, therefore, went to Saavatthi, the place where all Buddhas perform the Miracle. In reply to Pasenadi, the Buddha said he would perform the miracle at the foot of the Gandamba tree on the full moon day of Asaalha (in July). This was in the seventh year after the Enlightenment. The heretics therefore uprooted all mango trees for one league around, but, on the promised day, the Buddha went to the king's garden, accepted the mango offered by Ganda, and caused a marvellous tree to sprout from its seed. The people, discovering what the heretics had done, attacked them, and they had to flee helter-skelter. It was during this flight that Puurana Kassapa committed suicide. The multitude, assembled to witness the miracle, extended to a distance of thirty six leagues. The Buddha created a jewelled walk in the air by the side of the Gandamba. When the Buddha's disciples knew what was in his mind, several of them offered to perform miracles and so refute the insinuations of the heretics. Among such disciples were Gharanii, Culla Anaatthapindika, Ciiraa, Cunda, Uppalavannaa and Moggallaana. The Buddha refused their offers and related the Kanhausabha and Nandivisaala Jaatakas. Then, standing on the jewelled walk, he proceeded to perform the Yamaka-paatihaariya (Twin Miracle), so called because it consisted in the appearance of phenomena of opposite character in pairs, e.g., producing flames from the upper part of the body and a stream of water from the lower, and then alternatively. Flames of fire and streams of water also proceeded alternatively from the right side of his body and from the left. From every pore of his body rays of six colours darted forth, upwards to the realm of BrahmÄ and downwards to the edge of the Cakkavaala. The Miracle lasted for a long while, and as the Buddha walked up and down the jewelled terrace he preached to the multitude from time to time. It is said that he performed miracles and preached sermons during sixteen days, according to the various dispositions of those present in the assembly. At the conclusion of the Miracle, the Buddha, following the example of his predecessors, made his way, in three strides, to Taavatimsa, there to preach the Abhidhamma Pitaka to his mother, now born as a devaputta. It is said (Mil.349) that two hundred millions of beings penetrated to an understanding of the Dhamma at the conclusion of the Miracle. The Twin Miracle can only be performed by the Buddha. Mil.106. ------------------- Han: How was the Twin Miracle performed? I find the following in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma on page 176. Paa.li text: Bhagavato pana yamaka-paa.tihaariyakaalaadiisu lahukappavattiyam cattaari pañca vaa paccavekkha.nacittaani bhavantii ti pi vadanti. Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: To the Exalted One, at the time of the Twin Miracle and the like, when the procedure is rapid, only four or five occasions of reviewing consciousness occur, they also say. Explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: The Twin Miracle (yamakapaa.tihaariya) was a feat of psychic power the Buddha performed on several occasions during his lifetime, when it helped to inspire others with confidence in his Enlightenment. By this miracle the Buddha displays his body as emitting streams of fire and water simultaneously (Pts.i,125). He performs this feat of entering into the fifth jhaana separately, in quick succession, in the fire kasina and the water kasina, and then determining to display fire and water issuing forth from his body. After emerging from each jhaana, the Buddha reviews its factors, and he does this by an extremely rapid javana process which runs for only four or five cittas. While the Twin Miracle itself is exercised by the fifth-jhaana direct-knowledge citta, the reviewing of the jhaana factors is performed by a sense-sphere process, the quickest possible in the sense sphere. with metta, Han #126556 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 philofillet Hi alex > Do you have an actual reply? We need to start from where we are. Sorry about that Alex, and Howard. I shouldn't have stuck my nose in. I've been quite good about steering clear of people here who (understandably enough, and of course with no bad intent) see satipatthana as a training program. I will return to the steering clear, I don't share Jon, Nina, Sarah's opinion that it is valuable for people of such radically different understanding to attempt persuasion. Of course N, S and J's understanding is much better than mine, another good reason for me to stay out of debates. Thanks guys. Phil #126557 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:32 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 8 nilovg Dear friends, We may give in an angry mood. When we read this we may think that this is not applicable to us. But we should not only think of anger. The text speaks about dosa and there are many shades of dosa. Dosa can be anger, but it can also be a slight irritation, uneasiness or impatience. The commentary explains that, having dosa, one gets hold of what is handy and quickly gives it. One may give hurriedly in order to have done with it. We may have to exert ourselves in order to give a gift and this causes tiredness. There is bound to be aversion when we feel tired. Or we may have regret after our giving and then there is also akusala citta rooted in dosa. Do we know the many shades and degrees of dosa? Even now when a sound is harsh or the temperature is unpleasant, dosa is likely to arise. Since we accumulated dosa it can also arise while giving. I prepared banana pancakes for the monks on the occasion of Sarah’s birthday dåna in Colombo. For two hours I was in front of a hot stove in tropical heat, and, although there were also kusala cittas with generosity, there were many moments in between with aversion towards the intense heat, and there were moments of anxiety when I wondered whether the pancakes would be ready in time. Later on attachment to the gift arose and I felt pleased with myself that I had done the job. Thus we see that many akusala cittas arise even while we prepare dåna for the monks. We are so used to akusala cittas that we often do not notice them. In order to have more right understanding of our life it is necessary to learn more about the different types of citta which arise, also about our akusala cittas. They are realities, “they are not in the textbook”. The sutta states that one may give out of stupidity, that is, with ignorance. In daily life we often have cittas rooted in ignorance, moha, no matter what we are doing, and thus also while giving such cittas are bound to arise. Moments of true generosity arise, but when these have fallen away, cittas rooted in lobha, dosa and moha are likely to arise. One may give out of fear. This is fear of blame from others or fear of an unhappy rebirth, the commentary explains. One may give because one follows an old family tradition, and then there may be kusala cittas and akusala cittas at different moments. It is the same when one thinks of a happy rebirth as the result of one’s good deed. One may cling to such result. We can think of anything with kusala citta or with akusala citta and only right understanding can know what type of citta arises. -------- Nina. #126558 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:10 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 4. nilovg Venerable Kapila, Op 13-sep-2012, om 12:25 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > Btw, Nina, > how much you'll get in return if you give dana to an animal.? ------- N: When we give with true generosity, we do not think of receiving anything in return. We learn from the Tipi.taka that a gift given to a noble person or to the Buddha produces a higher degree of vipaaka than a gift given to a ordinary person. But it all depends on conditions in what situation we are. It is best to give impartially and not think of having a higher degree of vipaaka. If there is an opportunity to help an animal, let us be generous and give or help. At that moment the citta is kusala citta. Kusala citta arises when there are conditions for it, it does not belong to a self. Nina. #126559 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:32 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (16) (falling away of one citta, arising of the next.) philofillet Dear Group, Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: (snip bit on stages of enlightenment) Citta is a reality that arises and then falls away immediately. The falling awway of the preceding citta is a condition for the arising of the succeeding citta. The citta that sees arises and falls away; a citta that sees does not arise continuously. There are no cittas that hear, experience tangible object or think continuously. When we are fast asleep and not dreaming, there are cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another. However, at such moments citta does not experience an object through the eyes, the ears, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind-door." (55) (end of passage) Ph: "The falling away of the preceding citta is a condition for the arising of the succeeding citta." "There are no cittas that hear, experience tangible object, or think continuously." It is good to hear this again and again, even when there are not conditions for understanding directly how it works. We can be very grateful for Abhidhamma, without which such deep points could not be understood at all. phil #126560 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:06 am Subject: Conditions for the arising of panna jonoabb Hi Wojciech, All [For All, Wojciech (pronounced Woy-chek) is one of the friends who attended the discussions in Poland] In one of the discussions you asked for a statement of the conditions for the arising of panna, which you explained as meaning the things that if done as described would bring the arising of panna. The sutta SN 55.59 (Sotapatti-samyutta) gives 4 factors (anga) that "when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom [panna]" (however, they are not "things to be done"). The 4 factors are: 1/. Association with superior persons 2/. Hearing the true Dhamma 3/. Careful attention 4/. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma There is not in the suttas any `how to' for the arising/development of panna, in the sense of steps to be taken/followed. To my understanding, this is because the undertaking of a `practice' of any kind (as that term is generally understood) cannot condition panna to arise. However, when we are discussing Dhamma with others who have a good understanding of the Dhamma, it's quite possible that the first 2 of these 4 factors are present. Hope this is to the point you were asking about. Jon (In transit at Helsinki) #126561 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:12 am Subject: Poland 14 - finale sarahprocter... Dear Friends,, Lukas continued to show the same enthusiasm for discussion with Khun Sujin at every opportunity and we all benefited a lot as a result. This morning, this meant a lovely discussion (actually 2 discussions) at breakfast in the Warsaw hotel coffee shop before most of us needed to head out for the airport mid-morning for our various flights. Jon and I are now at Helsinki for an 8 hour wait for our next flight as I write this note. What I particularly remember from this morning's discussion was the emphasis on understanding present realities in daily life, not getting stuck with the study of texts which is really just an introduction. K.Sujin stressed that all perfections must be developed including  metta and adhitthana (resolution/resolve), not just panna. She was also stressing how important it is not to "make excuses" for not doing good, not helping others, not developing kusala, by saying to oneself that "it's anatta whether kusala or akusala arises, it's all conditioned, so I'll just study more." This again is "I am anatta", not understanding, not doing one's best. Her parting emphasis to Lukas (and the rest of us, of course) was to talk about the Blessings, the Mangala and to stress that there are not just 2 Blessings, such as associating with the wise and developing understanding. There are other blessings such as being diligent and doing whatever one can for one's mother who has always cared so much for one, more than anyone else. This was stressed a lot. I see from the note below that "According to the Commentary, mangala means that which is conducive to happiness and prosperity". These are blessings to be pursued through the deep understanding of present realities and living according to the Teachings. If one is very interested in studying realities but the other perfections are not developed or if there are only two blessings in one's life and one isn't diligent or doesn't respect and help one's parents or refrain from intoxicants and so on, it's not real understanding. On the point about intoxicants, there had been a discussion about how it can only be the present lobha that can be known. Panna can see the real danger of the 'addictive' or intoxicating lobha when there are addictions. With such habits, one might do anything when time comes, K.Sujin stressed, even kill one's parents out of the desperate addiction. The opportunity to study dhamma is so very precious. I have to say I was really impressed by the way Lukas listened so carefully to K.Sujin and even came out to the airport in order to spend a little more time with her. Only Lukas can report on his last conversation and the final reminders as we had already checked through for an earlier flight. I am quite sure the final reminders will have been stressing the understanding of seeing now, visible object now and any other reality appearing now, however. Life is so short - just this moment. Metta Sarah http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.5.nara.html       Khp 5 Mangala Sutta: Blessings translated from the Pali by Narada Thera "Thus have I heard.[1] On one occasion the Exalted One was dwelling at Anathapindika's monastery, in Jeta's Grove,[2] near Savatthi.[3] Now when the night was far spent, a certain deity whose surpassing splendor illuminated the entire Jeta Grove, came to the presence of the Exalted One and, drawing near, respectfully saluted him and stood at one side. Standing thus, he addressed the Exalted One in verse: "Many deities and men, yearning after good, have pondered on blessings.[4] Pray, tell me the greatest blessing!" [The Buddha:] "Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing. To reside in a suitable locality,[6] to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course[7] — this is the greatest blessing. To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8] well-trained in discipline,[9] and to be of good speech[10] — this is the greatest blessing. To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation — this is the greatest blessing. To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct,[11] to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing. To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants,[12] and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing. To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing. To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions — this is the greatest blessing. Self-restraint,[15] a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana — this is the greatest blessing. A mind unruffled by the vagaries of fortune,[16] from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, from fear liberated[17] — this is the greatest blessing. Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings."[18] Notes (Derived mainly from the Commentaries.) 1. This Sutta appears in the Sutta-Nipata (v.258ff) and in the Khuddakapatha. See Maha-mangala Jataka (No. 453). For a detailed explanation see Life's Highest Blessing by Dr. R.L. Soni, WHEEL No. 254/256. 2. Anathapindika, lit., 'He who gives alms to the helpless'; his former name was Sudatta. After his conversion to Buddhism, he bought the grove belonging to the Prince Jeta, and established a monastery which was subsequently named Jetavana. It was in this monastery that the Buddha observed most of his vassana periods (rainy seasons — the three months' retreat beginning with the full-moon of July). Many are the discourses delivered and many are the incidents connected with the Buddha's life that happened at Jetavana. It was here that the Buddha ministered to the sick monk neglected by his companions, advising them: "Whoever, monks, would wait upon me, let him wait upon the sick." It was here that the Buddha so poignantly taught the law of impermanence, by asking the bereaved young woman Kisagotami who brought her dead child, to fetch a grain of mustard seed from a home where there has been no bereavement. 3. Identified with modern Sahet-Mahet, near Balrampur. 4. According to the Commentary, mangala means that which is conducive to happiness and prosperity. 5. This refers not only to the stupid and uncultured, but also includes the wicked in thought, word and deed. 6. Any place where monks, nuns and lay devotees continually reside; where pious folk are bent on the performance of the ten meritorious deeds, and where the Dhamma exists as a living principle. 7. Making the right resolve for abandoning immorality for morality, faithlessness for faith and selfishness for generosity. 8. The harmless crafts of the householder by which no living being is injured and nothing unrighteous done; and the crafts of the homeless monk, such as stitching the robes, etc. 9. Vinaya means discipline in thought, word and deed. The commentary speaks of two kinds of discipline — that of the householder, which is abstinence from the ten immoral actions (akusala-kammapatha), and that of the monk which is the non-transgression of the offences enumerated in the Patimokkha (the code of the monk's rules) or the 'fourfold moral purity' (catu-parisuddhi-sila). 10. Good speech that is opportune, truthful, friendly, profitable and spoken with thoughts of loving-kindness. 11. Righteous conduct is the observance of the ten good actions (kusala-kammapatha) in thought, word and deed: freeing the mind of greed, ill-will and wrong views; avoiding speech that is untruthful, slanderous, abusive and frivolous; and the non- committal acts of killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. 12. Total abstinence from alcohol and intoxicating drugs. 13. Towards monks (and of course also to the clergy of other religions), teachers, parents, elders, superiors, etc. 14. For instance, when one is harassed by evil thoughts. 15. Self-restraint (tapo): the suppression of lusts and hates by the control of the senses; and the suppression of indolence by the rousing of energy. 16. Loka-dhamma, i.e., conditions which are necessarily connected with life in this world; there are primarily eight of them: gain and loss, honor and dishonor, praise and blame, pain and joy. 17. Each of these three expressions refers to the mind of the arahant: asoka: sorrowless; viraja: stainless, i.e., free from lust, hatred and ignorance; khema: security from the bonds of sense desires (kama), repeated existence (bhava), false views (ditthi) and ignorance (avijja). 18. The above-mentioned thirty-eight blessings. #126562 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:09 am Subject: Re: Conditions for the arising of panna philofillet Hi Jon If you see this during your ong wait... Couldn't careful attention be present as well. And to ask the obvious question, if "practice" cannot be present at such times, what is practice? We know "practice" isn't what it is taken to be by fast-trackers. So what is it? You must have answered this question several thousand times over the years as meditators come and go. Phil #126563 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:16 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (4) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (CONCENTRATION) [11] "Katamo panaayye, samaadhi, katame dhammaa samaadhinimittaa, katame dhammaa samaadhiparikkhaaraa, katamaa samaadhibhaavanaa"ti? "Yaa kho, aavuso visaakha, cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi; cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa; cattaaro sammappadhaanaa samaadhiparikkhaaraa. Yaa tesa.myeva dhammaana.m aasevanaa bhaavanaa bahuliikamma.m, aya.m ettha samaadhibhaavanaa"ti. [11] 12. "Lady, what is concentration? What is the basis of concentration? What is the equipment of concentration? What is the development of concentration? " "(i) Unification of mind (cittassa ekaggataa), friend Visaakha, is concentration; (ii) the four foundations of mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa) are the basis of concentration (samaadhinimitta); (iii) the four right kinds of striving (cattaaro sammappadhaanaa)are the equipment of concentration(samaadhiparikkhaaraa); (iv) the repetition (aasevanaa), development (bhaavanaa), and cultivation of these same states (bahuliikamma.m) is the development of concentration (samaadhibhaavanaa) therein." [Note 464] [Note 464] The four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration (samaadhinimitta) in the sense of being its condition (MA). Here it would seem incorrect to translate "nimitta" as "sign", in the sense of either distinguishing mark or object.] [Han: In my opinion, the above Question and Answer encompass the Samaadhi Group of Noble Eightfold Path, viz., Sammaa Sati, Sammaa Vaayaama, and Sammaa Samaadhi. The three factors are interdependent. I will quote a pasasage from The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi to show this interdependency. Quote: [The commentators illustrate the interdependence of the three factors within the concentration group with a simple simile. Three boys go to a park to play. While walking along they see a tree with flowering tops and decide they want to gather the flowers. But the flowers are beyond the reach even of the tallest boy. Then one friend bends down and offers his back. The tall boy climbs up, but still hesitates to reach for the flowers from fear of falling. So the third boy comes over and offers his shoulder for support. The first boy, standing on the back of the second boy, then leans on the shoulder of the third boy, reaches up, and gathers the flowers. In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify the mind, concentration needs support: the energy provided by right effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix the mind firmly on its object.] End Quote. The source of the above simile is Papa~ncasudani (Commentary to Majjhima Nikaya). ---------- Han: I also like the two Paa.li words in the above text: "aasevanaa" and "bahuliikamma.m." "aasevanaa" means repetition, and "bahuliikamma.m" means doing it several times. They are applicable not only to the Samaadhi Group of the Noble Eightfold Path but also to the entire Path. The meditator will have to do, whatever he is doing, several times and repeatedly. Just as a student, by repeated study, becomes more proficient in his lesson, so the meditator will become more proficient in his practice by doing it repeatedly.] To be continued. with metta, Han #126564 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:01 pm Subject: To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah, In MN 44 Cuu.lavedalla Sutta there is the following passage. 12. "Lady, what is concentration? What is the basis of concentration? What is the equipment of concentration? What is the development of concentration? " "Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein." [Note 464] [Note 464] The four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration (samaadhinimitta) in the sense of being its condition (MA). Here it would seem incorrect to translate "nimitta" as "sign", in the sense of either distinguishing mark or object. ---------- Han: Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has referred to Majjhima A.t.thakathaa (MA) for his remark about "nimitta." Do you have the translation of Papa~ncasuudanii (MA)? If you have, can you kindly look at the relevant passage to see what the (MA) has said on this topic? Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han #126565 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Conditions for the arising of panna jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon > > If you see this during your long wait... > =============== J: I must have just missed it. Now back in HK. > =============== > Ph: Couldn't careful attention be present as well. > =============== J: Yes, definitely could. > =============== > Ph: And to ask the obvious question, if "practice" cannot be present at such times, what is practice? We know "practice" isn't what it is taken to be by fast-trackers. So what is it? You must have answered this question several thousand times over the years as meditators come and go. > =============== J: To my understanding, "practice" (Pali: patipatti) is actual awareness of a presently arising dhamma, as opposed to the (kusala) intellectual understanding of dhammas (Pali: pariyatti). Jon #126566 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: Re: Poland 13 sprlrt Hi Sarah & all, Listening to Khun Sujin also helps to realize the depth of the truth of the Buddha's teachings which otherwise turn into the conventional teachings which one reads or studies in the translations of the tipitaka. Only pa~n~naa can really understand what the Buddha was actually saying 2500 years ago and we are fortunate enough to have a very good friend like Khun Sujin to explaining it to us in plain English. I remember she asked the question What is the purpose of studying/listening to the Dhamma? And I don't think we've provided the 'right' answer yet, which is always somehow self-related, like my own 'to get (myself) out of samsara'. Alberto PS Thank you and Jagkrit for the excellent talks' reports. #126567 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, Another motive for giving may be the prospect of having pleasant feeling. Instead of thinking of other people’s benefit we may cling to our own pleasant feeling. Through the teachings we have learnt that pleasant feeling can accompany cittas rooted in lobha as well as kusala cittas, but, when pleasant feeling arises it is hard to find out whether it is kusala or akusala. We should not try to focus our attention on feeling in order to know its nature. It depends entirely on the arising of sati and paññå whether realities can be known as they are. When there are conditions for right mindfulness of feeling, its nature can be known as it is. It is beneficial to realize how little we know about our own feelings. There may be pleasant feeling which is kusala, and then we may cling immediately to this feeling. Different kinds of pleasant feeling arise at different moments and we can easily mislead ourselves with regard to kusala and akusala. We do not like to admit that pleasant feeling is most of the time akusala, but in order to know the truth we must be sincere with ourselves. “Feeling good does not mean that the citta is kusala”, Bhante Dhammadharo reminded us. In society pleasant feeling, no matter what kind, is regarded as good and beneficial. Many people consider pleasant feeling to be the goal of their life, and, when we are sincere, is this not also what we seek, although we understand in theory that kusala is beneficial and akusala harmful? When we develop right understanding our sense of values will change and we shall see the danger of pleasant feeling which is akusala. We cling to pleasant feeling and we take it for “my pleasant feeling”, thus, we cling to ourselves. We cling time and again and hence clinging is bound to arise also while we are, for example, presenting dåna to the monks. The kusala cittas with generosity do not last and after they have fallen away akusala cittas arise so long as akusala has not been eradicated by right understanding developed in vipassanå. The last reason for giving mentioned in the sutta is giving “because it ennobles and adorns the mind”. Dåna causes the citta of the giver and the receiver to be soft and gentle, the commentary explains in a previous Sutta on giving. Giving in order to get rid of selfishness is the purest way of giving. We have many moments of stinginess, but when we are considerate of others and we are generous to them moments without selfishness can arise. However, we may also be attached to the idea that giving ennobles and adorns the mind. One may be attached to an idea of acquiring kusala for oneself, an idea of “my kusala”. Right understanding can gradually be developed of kusala citta and akusala citta that arise because of their own conditions. ******* Nina. #126568 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:53 am Subject: Re: Conditions for the arising of panna philofillet Hi Jon > > =============== > > Ph: Couldn't careful attention be present as well. > > =============== > > J: Yes, definitely could. Ok, was wondering why you only mentionned the first two factors and not this third one. I like your use of could, no shoulds here. (I can imagine some people might try to apply "shoulds" even to careful attention, as though it were someone we could choose to have. > > > =============== > > Ph: And to ask the obvious question, if "practice" cannot be present at such times, what is practice? We know "practice" isn't what it is taken to be by fast-trackers. So what is it? You must have answered this question several thousand times over the years as meditators come and go. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, "practice" (Pali: patipatti) is actual awareness of a presently arising dhamma, as opposed to the (kusala) intellectual understanding of dhammas (Pali: pariyatti). Ph: Ok, thanks. As in "put something to practice", it can arise, but people go wrong when they think "practice" and come up with metaphors about practicing the violin and so on!!! Anyways, thanks, and welcome back to Asia, sounds like a great succeess of a trip, congratulations to Lukas for having conceived of it and worked so hard to make it happen. Phil #126569 From: Wojciech Czypicki Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:15 am Subject: Re: Conditions for the arising of panna wojciechczyp... Hi Jon, Thanks for coming back with a source and a quote. I can follow your train of thought. Conditions have to arise, no things to be done... But I still see it as "I am annata" type of approach. One might just pick those suttas where no effort is required. One might use the intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma to excuse both doing something as well as not doing something. How about taking another sutta: Pañña Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html Sixths cause: "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities" So when someone want to see that effort/persistance is needed - it is right there in the suttas. And when one wants to see that no effort is needed and everything is happening due to conditions - it is there in Abhidhamma ans some Suttas as well. Will anyone try an "intellectual chainsaw juggling" to prove that all the suttas mentioning effort, dilligence, persistance are to interpreted in the way of just conditions/tendencies for effort to arise? Why would Budda give this teachings? Or maybe the ones who listned were just so not enough intelligent to understand the concepts of Abhidhamma? Anyway - I am really happy to have this point raised and keep it in my mind. Regards, Wojtek PS: The Buddha's final words are reported to have been: "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence." #126570 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:29 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (5) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (FORMATIONS) [12] 463. "Kati panaayye, sa"nkhaaraa"ti? "Tayome, aavuso visaakha, sa"nkhaaraa kaayasa"nkhaaro, vaciisa"nkhaaro, cittasa"nkhaaro"ti. [12] 13. "Lady, how many formations (sa"nkhaara) are there?" "There are these three formations, friend Visaakha: the bodily formation (kaaya-sa"nkhaara), the verbal formation (vacii-sa"nkhaara), and the mental formation (citta-sa"nkhaara)." --------------------- [13] "Katamo panaayye, kaayasa"nkhaaro, katamo vaciisa"nkhaaro, katamo cittasa"nkhaaro"ti? "Assaasapassaasaa kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayasa"nkhaaro, vitakkavicaaraa vaciisa"nkhaaro, sa~n~naa ca vedanaa ca cittasa"nkhaaro"ti. [13] 14. "But, lady, what is the bodily formation? What is the verbal formation? What is the mental formation?" "In-breathing and out-breathing (assaasa-passaasa), friend Visaakha, are the bodily formation; applied thought and sustained thought are the verbal formation (vitakka-vicaara); perception and feeling (sa~n~naa, vedanaa) are the mental formation." [Note 465] [Note 465] MA: Dhammadinnaa anticipated Visaakha's intention to ask about the formations that cease when one enters the attainment of cessation. Thus she explained the three formations in this way rather than as wholesome and unwholesome volitions of body, speech, and mind, the meaning relevant within the context of dependent origination. --------------------- [14] "Kasmaa panaayye, assaasapassaasaa kaayasa"nkhaaro, kasmaa vitakkavicaaraa vaciisa"nkhaaro, kasmaa sa~n~naa ca vedanaa ca cittasa"nkhaaro"ti? "Assaasapassaasaa kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayikaa ete dhammaa kaayappa.tibaddhaa, tasmaa assaasapassaasaa kaayasa"nkhaaro. Pubbe kho, aavuso visaakha, vitakketvaa vicaaretvaa pacchaa vaaca.m bhindati, tasmaa vitakkavicaaraa vaciisa"nkhaaro. Sa~n~naa ca vedanaa ca cetasikaa ete dhammaa cittappa.tibaddhaa, tasmaa sa~n~naa ca vedanaa ca cittasa"nkhaaro"ti. [14] 15. "But, lady, why are in-breathing and out-breathing the bodily formation? Why are applied thought and sustained thought the verbal formation? Why are perception and feeling the mental formation?" "Friend Visaakha, in-breathing and out-breathing are bodily, these are states bound up with the body; that is why in-breathing and out-breathing (assaasa-passaasa)are the bodily formation. First one applies thought and sustains thought, and subsequently one breaks out into speech; that is why applied thought and sustained thought (vitakka-vicaara) are the verbal formation. Perception and feeling are mental, these are states bound up with the mind; that is why perception and feeling (sa~n~naa, vedanaa) are the mental formation." [Note 466] [Note 466] MA explains further that the bodily formation and the mental formation are said to be formations “bound up†with the body and the mind in the sense that they are formed by the body and by the mind, while the verbal formation is a formation in the sense that it forms speech. The verb form vitakketvaa vicaaretva has been rendered in a way that maintains consistency with the rendering of the nouns vitakka and vicaara as "applied thought" and "sustained thought." To be continued. with metta, Han #126571 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Alberto, Nina, all) >________________________________ > From: han tun >In MN 44 Cuu.lavedalla Sutta there is the following passage. > >12. "Lady, what is concentration? What is the basis of concentration? What is the equipment of concentration? What is the development of concentration? " > >"Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein." [Note 464] > >[Note 464] The four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration (samaadhinimitta) in the sense of being its condition (MA). Here it would seem incorrect to translate "nimitta" as "sign", in the sense of either distinguishing mark or object. > >---------- > >Han: Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has referred to Majjhima A.t.thakathaa (MA) for his remark about "nimitta." Do you have the translation of Papa~ncasuudanii (MA)? If you have, can you kindly look at the relevant passage to see what the (MA) has said on this topic? .... S: I don't have a translation for it (not sure there is one). I believe the relevant part of the Pali commentary is the part below. Perhaps Alberto or Nina may have some comments on it. "Idaani ekacittakkha.nika.m maggasamaadhi.m sanimitta.m saparikkhaara.m pucchanto, katamo panaayyetiaadimaaha. ***Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa maggakkha.ne catukiccasaadhanavasena uppannaa sati, saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m. *** Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa catukiccasaadhanavaseneva uppanna.m viiriya.m, ta.m parivaara.t.thena parikkhaaro hoti. Tesa.myeva dhammaananti tesa.m maggasampayuttadhammaana.m. aasevanaatiaadiisu ekacittakkha.nikaayeva aasevanaadayo vuttaati." Metta Sarah ==== #126572 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah (Alberto, Nina, all) Thank you very much for your efforts. I also found the same paragraph in http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ 5. Cuu.layamakavaggo 4. Cuu.lavedallasuttava.n.nanaa Paragraph 460. Idaani ekacittakkha.nika.m maggasamaadhi.m sanimitta.m saparikkhaara.m pucchanto, katamo panaayyetiaadimaaha. Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa maggakkha.ne catukiccasaadhanavasena uppannaa sati, saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m. Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa catukiccasaadhanavaseneva uppanna.m viiriya.m, ta.m parivaara.t.thena parikkhaaro hoti. Tesa.myeva dhammaananti tesa.m maggasampayuttadhammaana.m. aasevanaatiaadiisu ekacittakkha.nikaayeva aasevanaadayo vuttaati. I hope someone has the translation. with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 9/19/12, sarah abbott wrote: S: I don't have a translation for it (not sure there is one). I believe the relevant part of the Pali commentary is the part below. Perhaps Alberto or Nina may have some comments on it. "Idaani ekacittakkha.nika.m maggasamaadhi.m sanimitta.m saparikkhaara.m pucchanto, katamo panaayyetiaadimaaha. ***Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa maggakkha.ne catukiccasaadhanavasena uppannaa sati, saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m. *** Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa catukiccasaadhanavaseneva uppanna.m viiriya.m, ta.m parivaara.t.thena parikkhaaro hoti. Tesa.myeva dhammaananti tesa.m maggasampayuttadhammaana.m. aasevanaatiaadiisu ekacittakkha.nikaayeva aasevanaadayo vuttaati." Metta Sarah ==== #126573 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:30 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 9. philofillet Dear Nina > Another motive for giving may be the prospect of having pleasant > feeling. Instead of thinking of other people's benefit we may cling > to our own pleasant feeling. Ph: You know that this is my constant theme, I think it applies to everything related to Dhamma. For example, when we think about deep teachings, we may cling to our own pleasant feeling from the teaching, from being connected to deep teachings, even intellectually. A comforter. And that *is* akusala, it *is* lobha, we can be honest about that. But somewhere in there, the rare gems in a great sea of mud and rock, there are moments of understanding with detachment. I don't think we can identify them when they arise, but perhaps by the degree of calm that arises. But can we distinguish kusala calm from akusala calm. Well, it's all due to conditions, but certainly not nearly as easily as one might think! >Through the teachings we have learnt > that pleasant feeling can accompany cittas rooted in lobha as well as > kusala cittas, but, when pleasant feeling arises it is hard to find > out whether it is kusala or akusala. Ph: It is impossible to find out by thinking or analyzing, panna works its way in accordance with accumulations, panna ay arise that knows pleasant feeling to be kusala. We shouldn't think too much about it, that won't help. I still feel that there is a great sea of nama cittas arising and that hoping to sort out the kusala from the akusala is beyond us. Knowing nama from rupa, maybe yes. But knowing kusala nama from akuala nama (except in the obvious cases of unpleasant mental feeling) seems beyond me. But yes, I know, no rules, if panna arises in a way that does so, it does so. But no *trying* to know kusala nama from akusala nama for me. Thank god my meditation is just soaking in pleasant feeling, with akusala. It would be a disaster if I believed that I could sit on a cushion and watch nama come and go and know this mental state to be kusala calm, this one to be calm with attachment, etc. That is an exercise in self-deception. > We should not try to focus our > attention on feeling in order to know its nature. It depends entirely > on the arising of sati and paññ� whether realities can be known as > they are. Ph: Yes! > When there are conditions for right mindfulness of feeling, > its nature can be known as it is. Ph: Why do you say "right mindfulness of feeling" instead of "understanding of feeling?" Because satipatthana always includes understanding, it is assumed? I enjoyed the rest of the post, but I will stop there. Phil #126574 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Correction: To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah (Alberto, Nina, all), There was a mistake in paragraph number in my last message. Please read 5. Cuu.layamakavaggo 4. Cuu.lavedallasuttava.n.nanaa Paragraph 462. Han --- On Wed, 9/19/12, han tun wrote: From: han tun Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 9:25 AM Dear Sarah (Alberto, Nina, all) Thank you very much for your efforts. I also found the same paragraph in http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ 5. Cuu.layamakavaggo 4. Cuu.lavedallasuttava.n.nanaa Paragraph 460. Idaani ekacittakkha.nika.m maggasamaadhi.m sanimitta.m saparikkhaara.m pucchanto, katamo panaayyetiaadimaaha. Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa maggakkha.ne catukiccasaadhanavasena uppannaa sati, saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m. Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa catukiccasaadhanavaseneva uppanna.m viiriya.m, ta.m parivaara.t.thena parikkhaaro hoti. Tesa.myeva dhammaananti tesa.m maggasampayuttadhammaana.m. aasevanaatiaadiisu ekacittakkha.nikaayeva aasevanaadayo vuttaati. I hope someone has the translation. with metta and respect, Han #126575 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna sukinderpal Hello Wojtek (and Jon), Welcome to DSG. I'd like to come in here to comment some On 19-Sep-12 2:15 AM, Wojciech Czypicki wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for coming back with a source and a quote. > > I can follow your train of thought. Conditions have to arise, no > things to be done... > > But I still see it as "I am annata" type of approach. One might just > pick those suttas where no effort is required. One might use the > intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma to excuse both doing > something as well as not doing something. > I don't know exactly what Jon said, but I think the message would be that there are in reality, only dhammas and conditionality between dhammas. Anything else is concept and these are illusory / not real. "Self" is an illusion, the result of the function of wrong view which itself is a dhamma. So yes, if one "use the intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma to excuse both doing something as well as not doing something", this must be wrong, since the dhammas that are likely to be involved are ignorance, attachment and wrong view. The fact is that "intellectual understanding" is in fact panna cetasika which is a dhamma, and like all dhammas this can't be made to arise by will or "used". Indeed if intellectual understanding arose to perform its particular function, it would be seen that the Path is anatta. This means that there is no place for the idea of "self" who can decide to do or not do anything. > > How about taking another sutta: Pañña Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html > Sixths cause: > "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental > qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is > steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to > skillful mental qualities" > Can not this be read as reference to the characteristic, function and manifestation of a particular level of right effort, and how this is proximate cause for a corresponding level of wisdom? It can't be a referring to a non-existent "self", can it? > So when someone want to see that effort/persistance is needed - it is > right there in the suttas. > And when one wants to see that no effort is needed and everything is > happening due to conditions - it is there in Abhidhamma ans some > Suttas as well. > The Suttas and Abhidhamma both talk about the exact same Dhamma / dhammas, otherwise it couldn't have come from the same source, namely the Buddha. Effort, right or wrong is always effort, a mental reality with the general characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Reading into the Suttas or Abhidhamma for the matter, what in fact is a reference to particular dhamma or set of dhammas, the idea of "self", is to misunderstand what the Buddha enlightened to, namely the Four Noble Truths. Understanding the First Noble Truth is not without understanding at the same time, the Fourth Noble Truth. Understanding of a present moment reality, namely Dukkha, implies that this very understanding is the Path, and this is conditioned and beyond control. > Will anyone try an "intellectual chainsaw juggling" to prove that all > the suttas mentioning effort, dilligence, persistance are to > interpreted in the way of just conditions/tendencies for effort to arise? > Why would Budda give this teachings? > Or maybe the ones who listned were just so not enough intelligent to > understand the concepts of Abhidhamma? > This is why the Abhidhamma is a great help and should never be overlooked. Reading a Sutta and interpreting it as suggesting the need to do something, would be equivalent to not having heard the Buddha's message. It would be like going on as before, thinking and doing things with the idea of self and control. Those during the Buddha's time who did not need to hear the Abhidhamma exposition, were ones with highly developed wisdom and little tendency to interpret what the Buddha taught with self-view. Those of us who need to hear the Abhidhamma are therefore the one's who lack wisdom. > Anyway - I am really happy to have this point raised and keep it in my > mind. > > Regards, > > Wojtek > I am glad too, that you did. :-) > PS: > The Buddha's final words are reported to have been: "All composite > things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence." > This works only when read as reference to impersonal dhammas. When read with the idea of self and doings, this is wrong effort at work, one which then conditions more wrong effort in the form of wrong practice down the road. Metta, Sukin #126576 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han, >>In MN 44 Cuu.lavedalla Sutta there is the following passage. >> >>12. "Lady, what is concentration? What is the basis of concentration? What is the equipment of concentration? What is the development of concentration? " >> >>"Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein." [Note 464] >> >>[Note 464] The four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration (samaadhinimitta) in the sense of being its condition (MA). Here it would seem incorrect to translate "nimitta" as "sign", in the sense of either distinguishing mark or object. .... S: In the Buddhadhatta dict, it gives: nimmita : [pp. of nimmi.naati] created; fashioned; built; produced. So I assume that in this context it means that the samaadhi of the 8fold path (which as you suggest may include right effort and right awareness as well as right concentration) is produced/conditioned by satipatthana (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Yes, I got the Pali from the same source you did! Metta Sarah >>Han: Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has referred to Majjhima A.t.thakathaa (MA) for his remark about "nimitta." Do you have the translation of Papa~ncasuudanii (MA)? If you have, can you kindly look at the relevant passage to see what the (MA) has said on this topic? >"Idaani ekacittakkha.nika.m maggasamaadhi.m sanimitta.m saparikkhaara.m pucchanto, katamo panaayyetiaadimaaha. ***Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa maggakkha.ne catukiccasaadhanavasena uppannaa sati, saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m. *** Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa catukiccasaadhanavaseneva uppanna.m viiriya.m, ta.m parivaara.t.thena parikkhaaro hoti. Tesa.myeva dhammaananti tesa.m maggasampayuttadhammaana.m. aasevanaatiaadiisu ekacittakkha.nikaayeva aasevanaadayo vuttaati." ======= #126577 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:28 pm Subject: Re: Conditions for the arising of panna sukinderpal Hello again Wojtek and Jon, > > Thanks for coming back with a source and a quote. > > > > I can follow your train of thought. Conditions have to arise, no > > things to be done... > > > > But I still see it as "I am annata" type of approach. One might just > > pick those suttas where no effort is required. One might use the > > intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma to excuse both doing > > something as well as not doing something. > > > > I don't know exactly what Jon said, I had assumed you both were having a conversation off-list since I searched Wojtek in my mailbox and did not see a previous post by you. But I just saw now, that you were in fact referring to a particular ongoing discussion Jon was having with Phil. :-/ Sukin #126578 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:01 pm Subject: Re: Conditions for the arising of panna philofillet Hi Sukin Nice to see you here. Actually J and W's exchange is a contunuation of their discussions in Poland. I think W had asked J at that time about the conditions for the arising of panna, with W coming from the intentional action pov. I just butted in with a question for J. Phil #126579 From: Lukas Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:50 pm Subject: The last words for Poland, part 1 szmicio Dear Nina, Phil and all I stayed with Than Acharn too the end at the airport before she left. She give the last Dhamma talk. We were standing at the airport, lurking in front of us. She told: "Visible object. Never forget visible objects". That was her last words for Poland. "Never mind the words or books this is only introduction for those who really want to develop right understanding and never mind that is not enough understanding now, that there is so much ignorance or whatever. This doesn't matter at all. This moment is exactly as it is. This all are just dhammas.", "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." Best wishes Lukas #126580 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The last words for Poland, part 1 sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, An excellent report and great departing words. Many thanks for sharing them. When we had to board our flight, Jon ran back to try and show his appreciation and respect to her and he could just see her (from the other side of customs and security) still speaking to you and your showing respect as she parted for customs. Her example of kindness and generosity in sharing the Dhamma even at this time was incredible. Visible object now! No one there at all! Metta Sarah >________________________________ > From: Lukas >I stayed with Than Acharn too the end at the airport before she left. She give the last Dhamma talk. We were standing at the airport, lurking in front of us. She told: "Visible object. Never forget visible objects". That was her last words for Poland. "Never mind the words or books this is only introduction for those who really want to develop right understanding and never mind that is not enough understanding now, that there is so much ignorance or whatever. This doesn't matter at all. This moment is exactly as it is. This all are just dhammas.", "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." #126581 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:17 pm Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 philofillet Hi Lukas Thanks. Very cool! Those words will stick with me... phil #126582 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna sarahprocter... Hi Wojtek (& Sukin) Just to say, so glad to read your post here and thank you for all your great contributions to the discussions and arrangements in Poland, even when you were feeling unwell. You got a taste of how our Thai friends like to change plans around. All just dhammas. We were also very glad to meet your fiancee, Maya on the last day in Warsaw. Hope she found the discussion interesting too. [Sukin, great to see you joining in the discussion and in passing, let me say the hotel you helped us select by the lake in Poland was perfect. Achan Sujin liked it a lot too and slept better than she ever does in Bangkok.] >________________________________ > From: Wojciech Czypicki >The Buddha's final words are reported to have been: "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence." ... S: Diligence with right understanding of dhammas as anatta. Metta Sarah p.s. My virus spread from the throat area and I was actually vommiting on the flight back from Helsinki to Hong Kong and have been nauseous ever since. I went to see my Chinese dr this morning, so beginning to settle down now. More dhammas - anatta. "Don't underestimate kamma!", Achan Sujin said one day. ============== #126583 From: "wojciechczypicki" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna wojciechczyp... Hi Sukin, Thanks for reply. I guess I could have anticipated that answer: > This is why the Abhidhamma is a great help and should never be > overlooked. Reading a Sutta and interpreting it as suggesting the need > to do something, would be equivalent to not having heard the Buddha's > message. It would be like going on as before, thinking and doing things > with the idea of self and control. > > Those during the Buddha's time who did not need to hear the Abhidhamma > exposition, were ones with highly developed wisdom and little tendency > to interpret what the Buddha taught with self-view. Those of us who need > to hear the Abhidhamma are therefore the one's who lack wisdom. The question is: if there is no need to do something, why give teachings about effort/doing something? Just to explain how things work? Guys - there is nothing to be done, but since you came, let me give you a short description of a way to Nibbana. No need to make notes as everything happens by conditions. #126584 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:11 pm Subject: Poland pics sarahprocter... Dear friends, Jon has just uploaded a few random pics he took from his i-phone in Poland of interest here. They are in a temporary "Poland" folder found in the 'photos' section of DSG. metta Sarah ====== #126585 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna rjkjp1 Dear Wojciech when there is listening and considering Dhamma isn't there effort present - sometimes more, sometimes less. When that effort is associated with panna cetasika (and concentration, sati etc) it is leading towards the eightfold path naturally. This effort might not be apparent at that time though.. Or there might be a great deal of obvious effort to listen or do or control or calm: but if not associated with panna cetasika it is useless or even wrong path. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wojciechczypicki" wrote: > > Hi Sukin, > > Thanks for reply. I guess I could have anticipated that answer: > > > This is why the Abhidhamma is a great help and should never be > > overlooked. Reading a Sutta and interpreting it as suggesting the need > > to do something, would be equivalent to not having heard the Buddha's > > message. It would be like going on as before, thinking and doing things > > with the idea of self and control. > > > > Those during the Buddha's time who did not need to hear the Abhidhamma > > exposition, were ones with highly developed wisdom and little tendency > > to interpret what the Buddha taught with self-view. Those of us who need > > to hear the Abhidhamma are therefore the one's who lack wisdom. > > The question is: if there is no need to do something, why give teachings about effort/doing something? > Just to explain how things work? Guys - there is nothing to be done, but since you came, let me give you a short description of a way to Nibbana. No need to make notes as everything happens by conditions. > #126586 From: sprlrt@... Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sprlrt Dear Han and Sarah, Visaakha was an anagami, a non-returner to the world of senses, kaamaavacara, one to be reborn in his last round in a ruupa jhaana plane (one of the fruits of anagami magga for sukkhavipassakas, like the householder Visaakha, is the first ruupajhaana). I've searched 'samaadhinimitta' in the muula tipitaka and found the term along with adhicitta, (samatha coupled with vipassana), and I think he was asking his former wife Dhammadinna, an arahant bikkhuni, details about this subject. Alberto "Idaani ekacittakkha.nika.m maggasamaadhi.m sanimitta.m saparikkhaara.m pucchanto, katamo panaayyetiaadimaaha. ***Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa maggakkha.ne catukiccasaadhanavasena uppannaa sati, saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m. *** Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa catukiccasaadhanavaseneva uppanna.m viiriya.m, ta.m parivaara.t.thena parikkhaaro hoti. Tesa.myeva dhammaananti tesa.m maggasampayuttadhammaana.m. aasevanaatiaadiisu ekacittakkha.nikaayeva aasevanaadayo vuttaati." #126587 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah (Alberto, Nina, all), I will try to interpret. [Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa] that person practices the four foundations of mindfulness. "vissajjana" literally means bestowing or giving away, but it would not make sense; and so I have changed it. [maggakkha.ne] at the moment of magga. [catukiccasaadhanavasena] by the effect of fulfilling the four tasks or performing the four functions. What four functions? The path consciousness (maggacitta) simultaneously performs four functions, one with respect to each of the four truths. These four functions are the full understanding (pari~n~naa) of suffering; the abandoning (pahaana) of craving, its origin; the realization (sacchikiriya) of Nibbaana, its cessation; and the developement (bhaavanaa) of the Noble Eightfold Path. [page 355 of CMA] [uppannaa sati] sati arises. This sati must be the supramundane sati, because of the preceding account of magga and four functions. [saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m] because of the above, or taking the above as the condition, the samaadhi arises. This samaadhi must also be supra-mundane samaadhi. I take nimitta, here, meaning attribute, reason, condition (not "sign" as Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has remarked.). with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 9/19/12, sarah abbott wrote: S: In the Buddhadhatta dict, it gives: nimmita : [pp. of nimmi.naati] created; fashioned; built; produced. So I assume that in this context it means that the samaadhi of the 8fold path (which as you suggest may include right effort and right awareness as well as right concentration) is produced/conditioned by satipatthana (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). #126588 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:28 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Dear Group Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "The citta that does not experience an object through any of the six dooors is the bhavanga-citta. This citta keeps one alive; it maintains the continuity in one's life as this particular person. Bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away until another type of citta arises that experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind door. The bhavanga-cittas arise in between the processes of cittas that experience objects through the six doors and this goes on continuously until the end of one's lifespan as a particular person." (end of passage) Ph: This is probably cause for delerious thinking, but I wonder about this "one's life as a particular person" when we know that there are only dhammas that arise and fall away, not persons. No, I will not think about it. "Visible object!" Seeing now, hearing now. Phil #126589 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:59 pm Subject: Re: Conditions for the arising of panna jonoabb Hi Wojtek Thanks for the reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Wojciech Czypicki wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for coming back with a source and a quote. > > I can follow your train of thought. Conditions have to arise, no things to be done... > > But I still see it as "I am annata" type of approach. One might just pick those suttas where no effort is required. One might use the intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma to excuse both doing something as well as not doing something. > > How about taking another sutta: Pañña Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html > Sixths cause: > "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities" > > So when someone want to see that effort/persistance is needed - it is right there in the suttas. > And when one wants to see that no effort is needed and everything is happening due to conditions - it is there in Abhidhamma ans some Suttas as well. > =============== J: The need for energy/effort/persistence is found throughout the suttas, and so is the fact that all dhammas are conditioned and not-self. Obviously, apparently conflicting parts of the teaching need to be reconciled, otherwise there would be no clear path. If the Buddha's teaching is indeed about the understanding of conditioned dhammas, then references to effort (as for references to awareness, wisdom, concentration, attachment, dukkha, interest and so on) need to be considered in that light. To my understanding, in urging effort/persistence, the Buddha was referring to kusala moments of consciousness only (he did not encourage the development of akusala even for a single moment). The conventional idea of exerting effort to have kusala in place of currently arising akusala cannot itself be kusala (there is no such thing as pre-kusala kusala!). However, where there are moments of kusala, those moments are accompanied by the mental factor of viriya. At such moments it can be said that a person is 'keeping his persistence aroused', etc. Viriya is also a path factor when arising with path moments (insight). The viriya at that moment performs the function of one or other of the 4 kinds of right effort, Jon PS In the sutta I quoted, the 4th factor (practice in accordance with the true Dhamma) would involve energy/effort; I was not intending to suggest that effort (the dhamma of that name) has no role. #126590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 9. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 19-sep-2012, om 4:30 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Why do you say "right mindfulness of feeling" instead of > "understanding of feeling?" Because satipatthana always includes > understanding, it is assumed? ----- N: Yes, right mindfulness as a path factor goes together with right understanding of the eightfold Path. Nina. #126591 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:59 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, no 10 nilovg Dear friends, The development of right understanding which can eradicate defilements was the topic of our Dhamma discussions in Sri Lanka. This understanding is developed through mindfulness of the nåmas and rúpas which appear in our daily life. Right understanding can be developed together with all kinds of kusala. We discovered in the course of our discussions that it is most important to understand the true purpose of kusala, dåna included: to lessen defilements, to get rid of selfishness. If one does not see that dåna is a means to have less selfishness and one neglects dåna, how can one with sincerity develop satipaììhåna which has as its aim the eradication of the wrong view of self and eventually of all the other defilements? In order to develop satipaììhåna with a sincere inclination one should see the danger of being attached to oneself. All kinds of akusala are bound to arise time and again. Also when we saw other people giving gifts to monks we noticed that aversion, jealousy and conceit could arise and we discussed our akusala. One may think with feelings of guilt: “The others are giving and I am not giving.” One may be jealous of other people’s kusala. Or there may be conceit while giving, one may find oneself important when thinking of the giver and the receiver. Or the thought may arise: “The others are ahead of me with regard to kusala, I am behind.” Not only when we think ourselves better than others, but also when we think ourselves equal or less than others we may find ourselves important and that is conceit. Not only giving is difficult, also receiving is difficult; receiving can condition akusala cittas. When we receive a gift we are likely to have attachment to the gift or to the giver, or we may think that we have to do something in return and then cittas rooted in aversion (dosa-múla-cittas) may arise. We can learn to receive with kusala citta, with true appreciation of the giver’s good deed. That is anumodana dåna. We noticed during our journey how difficult pure generosity is and how rare kusala cittas are. It is better to know this than to continue living in ignorance, taking for kusala what is akusala. Generosity is a form of alobha, non-attachment. Alobha is a cetasika (mental factor) which can arise only when there are the right conditions for its arising. There is no self who can force its arising and we found this out, time and again during our journey. When we see the value of dåna as a means to lessen selfishness there will be more conditions for genuine generosity; we shall be more considerate of others. We find ourselves important but should we not begin to see the importance of others? Non-attachment can be developed through right understanding. The arahat who has fully developed right understanding has eradicated all forms of clinging. He has achieved the highest form of giving, and that is the giving up of one’s defilements. ****** Nina. #126592 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi all, I don't understand what is triplet 9 in the matrix pointing to, and how is it different from triplet 8? Here they are for comparison: Pali: 8. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbaa dhammaa. (kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. (ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. 9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. (kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. (ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. English - Khine: 8. Dassana Tika: (i) Dhammaa eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1006, 1405) (ii) Dhammaa eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1011, 1406) (iii) Dhammaa not eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1012, 1407) 9. Dassana Hetuka Tika: (i) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1013, 1408) (ii) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1018, 1409) (iii) Dhammaa which have no other root causes to associate with and which are eliminated neither by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1019, 1410) pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". For further comparison, the treatment in Khine of the first lines of the two triplets: 1006. What are the dhammaa which are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. 1013. What are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. Best wishes pt #126593 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:53 pm Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 philofillet Hi again, Lukas, all > "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." Still really appreciating this. There is a tendency to make Dhamma so complicated, we hunger to get deep. In fact, seeing and visible object *is* a deep and subtle topic and great field for the development of satipatthana. Thankful to have a teacher who reminds us of this, and keeps us from getting too fascinated with things that are way beyond our understanding - our understanding here and now of the presently arisen realities. I also like (lobha with perhaps moments of understanding with detachment) that she stressed visible object, as you may know I have before heard her say that rupa is what appears to understanding, more often than nama. I think this can be appreciated (lobha with perhaps moments of understanding with detachment) without making a rule out of it, which is what Sarah often warns against... Phil #126594 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:21 pm Subject: Ten Volition 2 - Unwholesome Acts 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Right View <<4. Herein, firstly, in the detailed exposition of the first section: as regards the passage beginning killing living beings is unwholesome (panatipato kho avuso akusalam), "unwholesome" should be understood by way of the occurrence of unwholesomeness, or as what is opposed to the wholesome, which is to be dealt with below (Section 6). As to characteristic, it is blameworthy and has painful result, or it is defiled. This, in the first place, is the comment upon the general terms here. 5. Greed is a root of the unwholesome, etc.: It is greedy, thus it is greed (lubbhati ti lobho); it offends against (it hates), thus it is hate (dussati ti doso); it deludes, thus it is delusion (muyhati ti moho). Among these, greed is itself unwholesome in the sense that it is blameworthy and has painful results; and it is a root of these unwholesome (deeds) beginning with killing living beings, for some in the sense that it is an associated originative cause, for some in the sense that it is a decisive support condition. Thus it is an unwholesome root. This too is said: "One who is lustful, friends, overwhelmed and with mind obsessed by lust, kills a living being" (A.3:71/i,216; text slightly different). The same method applies to the state of being unwholesome roots in the cases of hate and delusion.>> KC #126595 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:24 pm Subject: Ten Volition 3 - Unwholesome Acts - Killing ashkenn2k Dear all <> KC #126596 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:51 pm Subject: Re: Dhs jonoabb Hi pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I don't understand what is triplet 9 in the matrix pointing to, and how is it different from triplet 8? Here they are for comparison: > > Pali: > > 8. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbaa dhammaa. > (kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. > (ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. > > 9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. > (kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. > (ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. > > > English - Khine: > > 8. Dassana Tika: > (i) Dhammaa eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1006, 1405) > (ii) Dhammaa eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1011, 1406) > (iii) Dhammaa not eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1012, 1407) > > 9. Dassana Hetuka Tika: > (i) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1013, 1408) > (ii) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1018, 1409) > (iii) Dhammaa which have no other root causes to associate with and which are eliminated neither by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1019, 1410) > > > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > > For further comparison, the treatment in Khine of the first lines of the two triplets: > > 1006. What are the dhammaa which are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > 1013. What are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > =============== J: Just a thought, but could it simply show that the dhammas that are eradicated by magga citta are all dhammas that have roots? Jon #126597 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:19 pm Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 szmicio Dear Phil, > > "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." > > > Still really appreciating this. L: I also appreciated this so much. I also took this reminder with me. Best wishes Lukas #126598 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:28 pm Subject: Re: Dhs szmicio Dear pt, For sure this are a hard tikas. > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > > For further comparison, the treatment in Khine of the first lines of the two triplets: > > 1006. What are the dhammaa which are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > 1013. What are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. L: There are hetu dhammas, and na hetu dhammas. Different realities to be understood, right now. ditthi, wrong view is na hetu, not a root but moha, ignnorance is hetu dhamma, a root that conditions all coming cittas and cetasikas by way of root condition. Maybe this will be helpful. As alberto said on Dhs, just slowly one world to be considered slowly, not a half of matika at once. This was his advice, when we together discussed matika to Dhs at his room. By the way a lot of fun in between. Acharn Sujin also mentioned once. Do you want to understand all words from a one book, everything perfectly? Impposible, only Buddha could. Best wishes Lukas #126599 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Jon and Lukas, > J: Just a thought, but could it simply show that the dhammas that are eradicated by magga citta are all dhammas that have roots? I'm not sure. It does looks like some dhammas are definitely getting eradicated :) I assume that would be akusala dhammas which are essentially fetters eradicated by different paths. Perhaps it's English that's confusing me. I know of dhammas that are roots (3 kusala, 3 akusala) and that are not roots (the rest). What are "dhammas that have roots" as you say, or "dhammaa with root causes" as Khine says? Is that just another expression for dhammas that are roots (3 kusala, 3 akusala)? Further, if that's so, then what is the point of essentially saying the same thing in triplets 8 and 9? What is 9 saying that is different from 8? Thanks. Best wishes pt