#126600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs nilovg Dear pt and all, Op 20-sep-2012, om 4:03 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with > root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". ------ N: Just a guess, it seems to me that hetu refers to pahaatabba, rather than to the dhammas. It could be an emphasis that pahaatabba is very strong, really eliminated with root and all. The term pahaatabbahetukaa is written together as one word. An idea? Text: 9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. ------ Nina. #126601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:03 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2 Some aspects of Síla We read in the “Discourse on an Exhortation to Råhula at Ambalaììhika” (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 61) that the Buddha taught his son Råhula to train himself in skilled moral habit, in kusala síla. We read that the Buddha said: “If you, Råhula, are desirous of doing a deed with the body, you should reflect on that deed of your body thus: ‘That deed which I am desirous of doing with the body is a deed of my body that might conduce to the harm of self and that might conduce to the harm of others and that might conduce to the harm of both; this deed of body is unskilled, its yield is anguish, its result is anguish.’ If you, Råhula, reflecting thus, should find, ‘That deed which I am desirous of doing with the body is a deed of my body that might conduce to the harm of self and that might conduce to the harm of others and that might conduce to the harm of both; this deed of body is unskilled, its yield is anguish, its result is anguish’ -- a deed of body like this, Rahula, is certainly not to be done by you....” The Buddha then told Råhula that a deed of body which would not conduce to the harm of himself, of others or of both, was skilled, with a happy result, and that such a deed might be done by him. He told Råhula to reflect in the same way at the moment he was doing a deed with the body and after he had done a deed with the body. The same was said with regard to action through speech and through the mind. While we speak do we always reflect whether the citta is kusala or akusala, whether our speech leads to the harm of ourselves or of others or of both? A word is spoken so quickly, it has been spoken before we realize it. We usually speak with akusala citta. Síla is behaviour or conduct through body and speech. Síla has many aspects. Abstaining from ill deeds is included in síla. Laypeople can observe five precepts, or they can observe eight precepts, for example, on ‘Uposatha days’ (vigil or fasting days). There are ten precepts that are obligatory for all monks and samaneras (novices). Moreover, the síla the monks have to observe are the rules of Påìimokkha of the Diciplinary Code, consisting of twohundred- and- twentyseven rules. Not only abstaining from ill deeds is included in síla, but also skilled behaviour through body and speech, such as paying respect and helping others. -------- Nina. #126602 From: sprlrt@... Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sprlrt Dear Lukas, Pt, Jon, Concepts, unlike paramattha dhammas like moha or pa~n~naa, don't accumulate, and are forgotten after death, I think that's why Khun Sujin keeps remind us about the present visible object, never the same for two split seconds, without getting lost into the concepts of people and things that follow, this is the function of pa~n~naa, to know the truth little by little, with no expectations for oneself, for what appears or doesn't appear, but to understand, by conditions, whatever arises, by conditions, beginning with visible object, just as a reality, as an element, as just the conditioned truth, not a person or something lasting for longer than a split second. Alberto PS Pt, I've looked up the last chapter of Dhs, which lists one more time the paramattha dhammas referred to by the matika, I think that pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa means dhammas (citta+cetasikas) to be abandoned (by sotapatti magga) which are conditioned by hetu paccaya (moha, the only hetu dhamma arising in the vicikicchaasahagato cittuppaado is not conditioned by hetu paccaya, i.e. it cannot condition itself by hetu paccaya, so it is not included in the first part of this triplet). 1405. katame dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbaa? cattaaro di.t.thigatasampayuttacittuppaadaa, vicikicchaasahagato cittuppaado -- ime dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbaa. ... 1408. katame dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa? cattaaro di.t.thigatasampayuttacittuppaadaa, vicikicchaasahagato cittuppaado, etthuppanna.m moha.m .thapetvaa -- ime dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa. > > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with > > root > causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > > > > For further comparison, the treatment in Khine of the first lines > > of the two > triplets: > > > > 1006. What are the dhammaa which are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, > Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are > eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > > > 1013. What are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by > > Sotaapatti > Magga? > > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, > Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are the > dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > L: There are hetu dhammas, and na hetu dhammas. Different realities > to be understood, right now. ditthi, wrong view is na hetu, not a > root but moha, ignnorance is hetu dhamma, a root that conditions all > coming cittas and cetasikas by way of root condition. Maybe this will > be helpful. As alberto said on Dhs, just slowly one world to be > considered slowly, not a half of matika at once. This was his advice, > when we together discussed matika to Dhs at his room. By the way a > lot of fun in between. Acharn Sujin also mentioned once. > > Do you want to understand all words from a one book, everything > perfectly? Impposible, only Buddha could. #126603 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs jonoabb Hi Nina, pt and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt and all, > Op 20-sep-2012, om 4:03 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with > > root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > ------ > N: Just a guess, it seems to me that hetu refers to pahaatabba, > rather than to the dhammas. > It could be an emphasis that pahaatabba is very strong, really > eliminated with root and all. > The term pahaatabbahetukaa is written together as one word. An idea? > Text: 9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. > ============== J: Definitely an idea. Could you say something more about 'pahaatabba' for we Pali ignoramuses? Thanks. Jon #126604 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Jon & all, > From: jonoabb >J: Could you say something more about 'pahaatabba' for we Pali ignoramuses? Thanks. ... S: From an old post by DC Wijeratna: "pahaatabbam: It comes from the verb 'pajahati' which means: gives up; renounces; forsakes; abandons. So pahatabba.m is: what should be removed, given up etc. bhaavetabba.m: it comes from the word 'bhaaveti' which means: increases; cultivates; develops. So bhaavetabba.m means what should be developed or cultivated or even grown." ..... S: Pahaana Sutta (Abandonment), SN 35:23 "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Dhamma for abandoning all (sabbappahaanaaya). Listen to that.... "And What, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for abandoning all (sabbappahaanaaya dhammo)? The eye is to be abandoned, forms...eye-consciousness...eye-contact and whatever feeling....ear.......mind....mental phenomena...mind-consciousness...mind-contact....feeling.....whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant- that too is to be abandoned. "This, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for abandoning all." **** S: In the next suttas, we read about how "the Dhamma for abandoning all" is "through direct knowledge and full understanding." This is the full understanding of "the eye....forms....eye-consciousness...eye-contact....and whatever feeling.....without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it one is incapable of destroying suffering." Metta Sarah ===== #126605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs nilovg Dear Jon, Op 20-sep-2012, om 11:13 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Definitely an idea. Could you say something more about 'pahaatabba' > for we Pali ignoramuses? Thanks. ---- N: the abba ending: what must, can should be abndoned. Nina. #126606 From: Kc Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt There is no difference between 8 and 9 in that context. On their own, wrong views and doubts are not roots, they are just Dhamma. Dhamma with root causes is just emphasis that wrong view and doubt cannot arise without the roots of craving and ignorance. The passage did not say they are roots, they are saying root causes. Or in other words, they arises - causes by roots. KC On 20 Sep, 2012, at 10:03 AM, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > English - Khine: > > 8. Dassana Tika: > (i) Dhammaa eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1006, 1405) > (ii) Dhammaa eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1011, 1406) > (iii) Dhammaa not eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1012, 1407) > > 9. Dassana Hetuka Tika: > (i) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1013, 1408) > (ii) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1018, 1409) > (iii) Dhammaa which have no other root causes to associate with and which are eliminated neither by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1019, 1410) > > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > > For further comparison, the treatment in Khine of the first lines of the two triplets: > > 1006. What are the dhammaa which are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > 1013. What are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > Best wishes > pt > > #126607 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:27 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 glenjohnann Hi Lukas, Sarah, Wojtek, Nina and All Thank you Lukas for sharing with us your last conversation with Achan. It expresses so well the essence of much of our discussions. These words have been running though my mind a lot since we all parted on Monday - "just visible object, no one there". Lukas, I so appreciated all of your questions. They all made the discussions so valuable and memorable. We were very blessed by Achan's unending enthusiasm and very explicit reminders about the present moment and the essence of "practice" now. Wojtek, same for your interest and questions. I admired your patience and candour while in the "hot seat". Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Lukas, > > An excellent report and great departing words. Many thanks for sharing them. > > When we had to board our flight, Jon ran back to try and show his appreciation and respect to her and he could just see her (from the other side of customs and security) still speaking to you and your showing respect as she parted for customs. > > Her example of kindness and generosity in sharing the Dhamma even at this time was incredible. > > Visible object now! No one there at all! > > Metta > > Sarah > > >________________________________ > > From: Lukas > > >I stayed with Than Acharn too the end at the airport before she left. She give the last Dhamma talk. We were standing at the airport, lurking in front of us. She told: "Visible object. Never forget visible objects". That was her last words for Poland. "Never mind the words or books this is only introduction for those who really want to develop right understanding and never mind that is not enough understanding now, that there is so much ignorance or whatever. This doesn't matter at all. This moment is exactly as it is. This all are just dhammas.", "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." > #126608 From: "azita" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:07 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 gazita2002 Hallo Lukas, thank you for sharing these very precious words, so often we forget that this is the reality of 'our' lives. If for a very brief moment we remember this then our worries and concerns disappear, but arise again bec that is the nature of anatta, dukkha, anicca - no me, not mine and certainly very unsatisfactory. may you be well and happy azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Nina, Phil and all > > I stayed with Than Acharn too the end at the airport before she left. She give the last Dhamma talk. We were standing at the airport, lurking in front of us. She told: "Visible object. Never forget visible objects". That was her last words for Poland. "Never mind the words or books this is only introduction for those who really want to develop right understanding and never mind that is not enough understanding now, that there is so much ignorance or whatever. This doesn't matter at all. This moment is exactly as it is. This all are just dhammas.", "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > #126609 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:08 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (THE ATTAINMENT OF CESSATION) [15] 464. "Katha.m panaayye, sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapatti hotii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjantassa bhikkhuno eva.m hoti 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjissa'nti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjaamii'ti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapanno'ti vaa. Atha khvaassa pubbeva tathaa citta.m bhaavita.m hoti ya.m ta.m tathattaaya upanetii"ti. [15] 16. "Lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall attain (samaapajjissa'nti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am attaining (samaapajjaamii'ti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have attained (samaapanno'ti) the cessation of perception and feelin'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." [Note 467] [Note 467] Cessation can be attained only by a non-returner or an arahant with mastery over the eight jhaanic attainments. The meditator enters each attainment in turn, emerges from it, and contemplates it with insight as impermanent, suffering and not self. After completing this procedure with the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and attending to certain preliminaries, the meditator determines to be without mind for a particular length of time. His determination, backed by his previous accomplishments, and preparations, leads him into the attainment of cessation. See Vsm XXIII, 32-43. --------------------- [16] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjantassa panaayye, bhikkhuno katame dhammaa pa.thama.m nirujjhanti yadi vaa kaayasa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa vaciisa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa cittasa"nkhaaro"ti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjantassa kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhuno pa.thama.m nirujjhati vaciisa"nkhaaro, tato kaayasa"nkhaaro, tato cittasa"nkhaaro"ti. [16] 17. "Lady, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, which states cease first in him: the bodily formation, the verbal formation, or the mental formation?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, first the verbal formation ceases, then the bodily formation, then the mental formation." [Note 468] [Note 468] Applied and sustained thought cease first in the second jhaana; in-and-out breathing cease next in the fourth jhaana; and perception and feeling cease last in the attainment of cessation itself. -------------------- [17] "Katha.m panaayye, sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thaana.m hotii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahantassa bhikkhuno eva.m hoti 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahissa'nti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahaamii'ti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thito'ti vaa. Atha khvaassa pubbeva tathaa citta.m bhaavita.m hoti ya.m ta.m tathattaaya upanetii"ti. [17] 18. "Lady, how does emergence from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall emerge (vu.t.thahissa'nti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am emerging (vu.t.thahaamii'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have emerged (vu.t.thito'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." [Note 469] [Note 469] When the time decided upon by the determination for the attainment has lapsed, by reason of that prior determination the meditator spontaneously emerges from the attainment of cessation and the mind-process resumes. [Han: When the meditator enters Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I shall attain Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc.; and when he emerges from the Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I have emerged from Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc. Why? It is understandable that no thoughts can occur during Nirodha-samaapatti. But what about *just before* and *just after* the Nirodha-samaapatti? Although it is not possible to have any thoughts during Nirodha-samaapatti, can he not have the thought: 'I shall attain Nirodha-samaapatti' just before Nirodha-samaapatti? Or, can he not have the thought: 'I have emerged from Nirodha-samaapatti' just after Nirodha-samaapatti? It will need a detailed explanation which I will do referring to Visuddhimagga. ----- (a) When the meditator enters the Nirodha-samaapatti: 873.Katha~ncassaa samaapajjana.m hotiiti? Samathavipassanaavasena ussakkitvaa katapubbakiccassa nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatana.m nirodhayato, evamassa samaapajjana.m hoti. Yo hi samathavaseneva ussakkati, so nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanasamaapatti.m patvaa ti.t.thati. Yo pana vipassanaavaseneva ussakkati, so phalasamaapatti.m patvaa ti.t.thati. Yo pana ubhayavaseneva ussakkitvaa pubbakicca.m katvaa nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatana.m nirodheti, so ta.m samaapajjatiiti ayamettha sa"nkhepo. Vism XXIII, 31. (vi) How does its attainment come about? It comes about in one who performs the preparatory tasks by striving with serenity and insight and causes the cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. One who strives with serenity alone reaches the base consisting of neither-perception-nor- non-perception and remains there, while one who strives with insight alone reaches the attainment of fruition and remains there. But it is one who strives with both, and after performing the preparatory tasks, causes the cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, who attains it. This is in brief. ----- (b) When the meditator emerges from the Nirodha-samaapatti: 881.Katha.m vu.t.thaananti anaagaamissa anaagaamiphaluppattiyaa, arahato arahattaphaluppattiyaati eva.m dvedhaa vu.t.thaana.m hoti. Vism XXIII, 49. (viii) How does the emergence from it come about? The emergence comes about in two ways thus: by means of the fruition of non-return (Anaagaami-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the non-returner, or by means of the fruition of Arahantship (Arahatta-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the Arahant. ----- Han: From the above, it is learnt that the meditator who strives with both samatha and vipassanaa, after performing the preparatory tasks (pubba-kicca), causes the cessation of (consciousness belonging to) the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and that cessation itself leads directly to the attainment of the Nirodha-samaapatti. [In A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, on pge 178: "After reaching the base of nothingness and emerging from it, the meditator performs certain preparatory tasks, and then resolves to enter the attainment. Thereupon two cittas of the fourth aruupa-jhaana arise and cease, after which the stream of consciousness is cut off."] So there is no time or condition to have any other thoughts just before entering Nirodha-samaapatti. When the meditator emerges from Nirodha-samaapatti, he enters into phala-samaapatti. When a meditator is in phala-samaapatti, taking the Nibbaana as its object, there will be no condition to have any other thoughts. That is why when the meditator enters Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I shall attain Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc.; and when he emerges from Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I have emerged from Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc. Here, the performance of the preparatory tasks, with the four determinations, is the "key." Once a meditator has performed the preparatory tasks (pubba-kicca.m katvaa) the entering into and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti will follow automatically in accordance with the determinations made. No other thoughts arise as far as Nirodha-samaapatti is concerned.] -------------------- [18] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahantassa panaayye, bhikkhuno katame dhammaa pa.thama.m uppajjanti yadi vaa kaayasa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa vaciisa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa cittasa"nkhaaro"ti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahantassa kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhuno pa.thama.m uppajjati cittasa"nkhaaro, tato kaayasa"nkhaaro, tato vaciisa"nkhaaro"ti. [18] 19. "Lady, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, which states arise first in him: the bodily formation, the verbal formation, or the mental formation?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, first the mental formation arises, then the bodily formation, then the verbal formation." [Note 470] [Note 470] MA: When one emerges from cessation, the consciousness of fruition attainment arises first, and the perception and feeling associated with that are the mental formation that arises first. Then, with the subsequent descent into the life continuum, the bodily formation, i.e., breathing, recommences. And subsequently, when the meditator resumes his ordinary activity, the verbal formation arises.] -------------------- [19] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thita.m panaayye, bhikkhu.m kati phassaa phusantii"ti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thita.m kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhu.m tayo phassaa phusanti su~n~nato phasso, animitto phasso, appa.nihito phasso"ti. [19] 20. "Lady, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of contact touch him?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, three kinds of contact touch him: voidness contact (su~n~nato phasso), signless contact (animitto phasso), desireless contact (appa.nihito phasso)." [Note 471] [Note 471] The first state of consciousness to arise on emerging from cessation is that of fruition attainment, which is called voidness, the signless, and the desireless because of its own inherent quality and because of its object, Nibbaana. Here these three names for fruition are assigned to the contact associated with fruition. [Han: Here, we may recall Vism XXIII, 49. (viii) How does the emergence from it come about? The emergence comes about in two ways thus: by means of the fruition of non-return (Anaagaami-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the non-returner, or by means of the fruition of Arahantship (Arahatta-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the Arahant.] -------------------- [20] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thitassa panaayye, bhikkhuno ki.mninna.m citta.m hoti ki.mpo.na.m ki.mpabbhaara"nti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thitassa kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhuno vivekaninna.m citta.m hoti, vivekapo.na.m vivekapabbhaara"nti. [20] 21. "Lady, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, to what does his mind incline, to what does it lean, to what does it tend?" "Friend Visakha, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, his mind inclines to seclusion (viveka-ninna.m), leans to seclusion (viveka-po.na.m), tends to seclusion (viveka-po.na.m)." [Note 472] [Note 472] M.T: Nibbaana, the object of the fruition consciousness that arises on emerging from cessation, is called seclusion (viveka) because it is secluded from all conditioned things. [Han: There are three vivekas: kaaya-viveka (bodily detachment, i.e., abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects); citta-viveka (mental detachment, i.e., the inner detachment from sensuous things); and upadhi-viveka (detachment from the substrata of existence, i.e., Nibbaana). Here, Note 472 says that Nibbaana is called seclusion (viveka), and so it must be upadhi-viveka, that the text is referring to.] [Han: What is the difference between one who has attained cessation and one who is dead? This is explained in Vism XXIII, 51 as follows: In both the cases, his bodily formations have ceased and are quite still, his verbal formations have ceased and are quite still, his mental formations have ceased and are quite still. But (1) the one who is dead, his life is exhausted (aayu parikkhii.no), his heat has subsided (usmaa vuupasantaa), and his faculties are broken up (indriyaani paribhinnaani); whereas (2) the one who attains cessation, his life is unexhausted (aayu aparikkhii.no), his heat has not subsided (usmaa avuupasantaa), his faculties are quite whole (indriyaani aparibhinnaani).] To be continued. with metta, Han #126610 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:40 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) glenjohnann Way to go, Phil. conventional language is what we have to work with - and as with suttas etc., it has to be heard / read with understanding of the Dhamma. Maybe "stream of cittas" works in this case too. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Group > > Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > "The citta that does not experience an object through any of the six dooors is the bhavanga-citta. This citta keeps one alive; it maintains the continuity in one's life as this particular person. Bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away until another type of citta arises that experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind door. The bhavanga-cittas arise in between the processes of cittas that experience objects through the six doors and this goes on continuously until the end of one's lifespan as a particular person." > > (end of passage) > > Ph: This is probably cause for delerious thinking, but I wonder about this "one's life as a particular person" when we know that there are only dhammas that arise and fall away, not persons. > > No, I will not think about it. "Visible object!" Seeing now, hearing now. > > Phil > #126611 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:18 pm Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 jagkrit2012 Hi Ann, Lukas, Sarah, Wojtek, Jon, Gabi, Nina and All Ann: Thank you Lukas for sharing with us your last conversation with Achan. It expresses so well the essence of much of our discussions. These words have been running though my mind a lot since we all parted on Monday - "just visible object, no one there". Ann: Lukas, I so appreciated all of your questions. They all made the discussions so valuable and memorable. We were very blessed by Achan's unending enthusiasm and very explicit reminders about the present moment and the essence of "practice" now. Wojtek, same for your interest and questions. I admired your patience and candour while in the "hot seat". ------------------------------- JJ: I'm also thankful for Lukas's posting the last words of T.A. Sujin. Even they were the last words in Poland but they will stay for long in our mind (Sanna) for kusala vitaka. And Ann is right. T.A. Sujin spent one week remind us how important of "present moment" is. It is countless on her words mentioning the awareness of present moment through seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. T.A. Sujin, once, said that dhamma friends who live outside Thailand can hardly have frequent discussion, therefore, this discussion in Poland should be worth it with real dhamma for right understanding, not only wording or stories. Thank you again for everybody in Ozlstyn, Poland to share the precious dhamma discussion moment. Especialy, Sarah who triedlessly arranged very nice forum for discussions and Jon who was very busy with all discussion records for everyone to here in DSG storage. Jon, you will have big muscle on your arms by now after swinging back and forth the microphone handle to have nice sound. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126612 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:48 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) jagkrit2012 Hi Phil and all Ph: "one's life as a particular person" when we know that there are only dhammas that arise and fall away, not persons. > > No, I will not think about it. "Visible object!" Seeing now, hearing now. ---------------------------------------- JJ: Can one's life means particular 5 Khandas. Particular rupa, sanna, vetana, sungkhara and vinnana not those. seeing now is the particular Citta and Cetasika now not another and gone. Jagkrit #126613 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:41 pm Subject: Collateral Damages jagkrit2012 Dear all and dsg in Poland During the dicussion in Ozlstyn, we discussed about going to the monastery to behave with good sila, learn some dhamma or meditating. And the debate went wide to "I am annatta" where everything is conditioned. Why one should worry of anything? Just wait and it'll happen. There is, however, one question in Thai dhamma discussion group (tddg) poping up and asking: " I live in a codo in Bangkok surrounding with 7-11 shop, Big C Superstore, markets, all kind of service shops etc. The sound is so loud hurting my ears sometimes. I can not sleep. And people around here sleepless. I'm always distracted. I am 30 which is half of my life. I am an elementary school of dhamma practicer. Sometimes, I listen dhamma in the redio but most of the time I jerk around. Does this mean that we have to be over 40 to get some kind of hormone calming us down to dhamma practice like we can see people in general (certainly not in dsg !!). And if it's better for people who stay in out of city or monastery where less distraction?" Any comment? way out? or suggestion? Of course with out any collateral damages ! Jagkrit #126614 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi Ann, Jagkrit, all Being may or may not have their own existence according to Dhamma, but that doesn't concern me. Because whether the Buddha said there are beings, or not, there can only be experience of dhammas (which obviously aren't beings) and concepts formed on the basis of those dhammas. I'm sure there can be no one here who would disagree that we can't see "people", we see visible object, and the concept of the person is formed. Whether that person is a being or not is irrelevant, the point is that we can only experience dhammas, and form concepts of them. THere is no way to directly experience a being, only dhammas. And through the experience of dhammas, with right understanding, ever so gradually, detachment can develop. And through detachment, liberation. So I like "only visible object, no Nina there" (in line with our direct experience) much better than "there is no Nina" (to use the person referred to in one of my favourite talks)" which brings up all sorts of big questions about existence or non-existence that just feed delerious thinking and billions and billions of miles of internet debate threads. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > > Way to go, Phil. > conventional language is what we have to work with - and as with suttas etc., it has to be heard / read with understanding of the Dhamma. Maybe "stream of cittas" works in this case too. > > Ann > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Group > > > > Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > > > "The citta that does not experience an object through any of the six dooors is the bhavanga-citta. This citta keeps one alive; it maintains the continuity in one's life as this particular person. Bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away until another type of citta arises that experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind door. The bhavanga-cittas arise in between the processes of cittas that experience objects through the six doors and this goes on continuously until the end of one's lifespan as a particular person." > > > > (end of passage) > > > > Ph: This is probably cause for delerious thinking, but I wonder about this "one's life as a particular person" when we know that there are only dhammas that arise and fall away, not persons. > > > > No, I will not think about it. "Visible object!" Seeing now, hearing now. > > > > Phil > > > #126615 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Collateral Damages sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit & all, Great question from Bangkok. Here's an answer, perhaps others will add other answers: **** Dear Thai friend, I sympathise and understand what you're saying. I live in busy, noisy Hong Kong and still "jerk around" even though I'm twice your age! However, we are very fortunate in that we have the opportunity to listen to and understand the Buddha's Teachings about the realities which make up our our ordinary lives and problems. Let's consider: In reality, is there really a busy Bangkok or Hong Kong? Are there really sleepless and distracted people? Are there really cities and monasteries? What is seen at this very moment? What is heard now? Are people and places and distractions really existing or are they figments of the imagination now? Is there anyone to change what has been conditioned to arise now, such as this moment of seeing which just sees visible object or this moment of thinking which reflects upon "me jerking around in Bangkok"? Would you agree that there is just this moment now, this moment of seeing what is visible, followed by all sorts of long stories about people and places? Surely when there is an idea that if we were in another place, life would be different, there is no understanding that realities - such as seeing, visible object, hearing and sound - are conditioned to arise, beyond anyone's control. Even the thinking about "a monastery" or "a peaceful environment" is conditioned, arises and falls away instantly. I should stress here that the thinking itself is real, it arises and falls away, but "the monastery" is just an idea that is thought about. It doesn't arise and fall away because it's not real in an ultimate sense. It is a conventional reality only. Food, cup, computer and people are also conventional realities, but not the ultimate realities, the paramattha dhammas, which can be directly understood now. At a moment of understanding of the absolute reality now, whether it be the seeing, the visible object, the thinking or any other dhamma, there is true peace, true quiet - the calm that arises with the kusala citta, the wholesome state of mind. This is how the Buddha taught us to truly live alone with the reality, no matter where or when. Perhaps you are familiar with the Migajala Sutta, SN 35:63, which has always been a favourite of mine because it emphasises how living alone, living at peace, depends on the citta, the mind, and not on the physical environment because ignorance and attachment are the real disturbances in life: Here is an extract from it (translated into English by Bhikkhu Bodhi): "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." ..... "There are, Migajala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them, does not welcome them, and does not remain holding to them, delight ceases. When there is no delight, there is no infatuation. When there is no infatuation, there is no bondage. Released from the fetter of delight, Migajala, a bhikkhu is called a lone dweller. (same for sounds, odours, tastes, tacticle objects, mental phenomena) "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller." So, actually, wherever we live, there has to be the development of understanding of the reality experienced now so that gradually there will be more detachment, more equanimity towards what is seen and heard and more understanding that whatever reality arises now is anatta. That means it is just a conditioned dhamma that arises and falls away. It does not belong to you or me and it's not a place, thing or person of any kind. I'd be glad to hear your further comments and questions which also help us to reflect more on the Buddha's Teachings as applied to our ordinary lives. These Teachings are very deep and not easy to understand at all. Metta Sarah >There is, however, one question in Thai dhamma discussion group (tddg) poping up and asking: > >" I live in a codo in Bangkok surrounding with 7-11 shop, Big C Superstore, markets, all kind of service shops etc. The sound is so loud hurting my ears sometimes. I can not sleep. And people around here sleepless. I'm always distracted. I am 30 which is half of my life. I am an elementary school of dhamma practicer. Sometimes, I listen dhamma in the redio but most of the time I jerk around. Does this mean that we have to be over 40 to get some kind of hormone calming us down to dhamma practice like we can see people in general (certainly not in dsg !!). And if it's better for people who stay in out of city or monastery where less distraction?" #126616 From: "philofillet" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:10 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi again >>Whether that person is a being or not is irrelevant, the point is that we can only experience dhammas, and form concepts of them. THere is no way to directly experience a being, only dhammas. And through the experience of dhammas, with right understanding, ever so gradually, detachment can develop. And through detachment, liberation. I add -- and caring for people with detachment, i.e, with kusala. The point of Dhamma is certainly not accumulating attachment. Detachment has to come into it, the sooner the better. I think everyone knows this already, but kusala ***must*** be rooted in alobha. There is no kusala rooted in lobha. So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. Only moments with wise detachment - very rare, obviously - can be kusala. Let's remember, the Buddha almost refrained from teaching because he knew it would go against the way of the world. The way of the world is lobha. There can only be rare moments of kusala, but they accumulate, and kusala is developed if there are conditions for patience, a rare commodity in this day and age. phil #126617 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:30 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi again > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. I don't know. The Buddha, for example, praised caring for our parents. Surely he wasn't saying that there should always be detachment. phil #126618 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:38 pm Subject: The last words for Poland, part 2 szmicio Dear friends, Continuation: L: I appreciate so much acharn, that during this 7 days, we didnt talk on satipatthana at all. This is so helpful. Instead we learned about realities now, different characteristic to appear, that are not self at all. A.S: Yes, because for satipatthana there must be so keen panna. And it must grow first. The satipatthana will come when the panna will become keen enought, for satipathana to arise, and not be forgetful of each reality, that appears to right understanding. Without this satipattha never arise. If someone thinks one can make or try satipatthana to arise, and even dont know what sati is, sati will never arise. So that's why we live our life. Like that, see, like this is now. There is only ignorance, but remember never mind it to be different. Just know this is exactly like now, while we standing here. There is ignorance that ignores realities. But is there any hardness right now? L: Yes, it is. A.S: See, but the panna is not strong enought to now it right now. That's why we learn about realities right now. Visible object is there and hardness is there. There are exactly like now. And when satipatthana arise they will be exactly the same. No difference. But the sati must arise naturaly. Never mind about words, this is not in the book. Learn what appears now, and no need to name it. Books are only an introduction for those who wants to develop more understanding. She than said: Appreciate goodness. Dont do goodness. Just appreciate whenever it appears. Dont try to have it. Than you will see what goodness is, and how to have more goodness. You can see when it appears, this is so different than all kinds of akusala when they arise. She explained Triple Gems, Taking a shelter in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. I asked that it is so hard to know Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. And people leaded by ignorance do it morning and evening, with ignmorance. A.S No, they do it, cause they cannot do anything else for that time. You can see that they do it, because this is the first thing they do after waking up. A great understanding. They have no accumulations for coffe at the morning. Best wishes Lukas #126619 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi again all Wow, fantastic outburst of delerious thinking! Hit return button. Visible object, no one there at all. phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again > > > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. > > > Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. I don't know. The Buddha, for example, praised caring for our parents. Surely he wasn't saying that there should always be detachment. > > phil > #126620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:25 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we abstain from ill deeds we do not harm ourselves, nor others, nor both ourselves and others. When we transgress the five precepts we harm ourselves as well as others. What is the cause of transgression of the five precepts? We read in the “Discourse to Samaùamaùèikå” (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 78) that the Buddha said to Samaùamaùèikå’s son, a carpenter: “And which, carpenter, are the unskilled moral habits? Unskilled deed of body, unskilled deed of speech, evil mode of livelihood-- these, carpenter, are called unskilled moral habits. And how, carpenter, do these unskilled moral habits originate? Their origination is spoken of too. It should be answered that the origination is in the citta. Which citta? For the citta is manifold, various, diverse. That citta which has attachment, aversion, ignorance-- originating from this are unskilled moral habits....” When we neglect the precepts we are selfish and we are not considerate of other beings. So long as we have not attained enlightenment we may neglect the five precepts, there are still conditions for transgressing them. We have committed unwholesome deeds in the past and, thus, unwholesome inclinations have been accumulated. Because of our accumulations of akusala there are conditions today for the performing of unwholesome deeds. We may think that we can always observe the five precepts, but is our síla really perfect? We may suddenly find ourselves in very difficult situations which make it hard for us to observe the five precepts and then we may transgress them. We think that we generally do not lie, but do we sometimes say something that is not quite true, or do we tell a “white lie”? We think that we do not steal, but do we always return books we borrowed? Do we never evade the paying of taxes? The “Visuddhimagga” (I, 31) explains that one may neglect síla because of gain, fame, relatives, limbs or life. By these factors síla may be “limited”. We may, for example, generally not be inclined to kill insects, but because of our guests we may kill them. We may generally not be inclined to lie, but because gain or fame we may tell a lie. One’s síla is unlimited if one does not transgress it, no matter what happens. The sotåpanna, the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, has no more conditions for transgressing the five precepts. He sees realities as they are and he has eradicated the wrong view of self. As we have seen, lobha, dosa and moha are the causes of neglecting síla. The sotåpanna has not eradicated lobha, dosa and moha, but they do not have the intensity so as to condition the transgression of the five precepts. For him there are more conditions for loving kindness and compassion. It is sati, not self, that prevents the transgression of the five precepts. Only through the development of right understanding of whatever reality appears, also of akusala citta, the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Then there will be no more conditions for transgressing the five precepts. ------- Nina. #126621 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:01 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 glenjohnann Dear Lukas Thank you very much for sharing more of your last conversation with Achan. Her words are so valuable and such good reminders. She is ever generous and so skilful in her expression of the true Dhamma. I am interested in her comments about appreciating goodness, not doing goodness, but appreciating it whenever it appears; that is the way to learn about it. Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. We go along with our lives thinking that it is good to "do good" - and that is where subtle lobha and wrong effort often come into play. We want to "be a good person". But kusala can only arise naturally when there are condition, just like understanding. She is saying that understanding of goodness can grow as there is more appreciation of it - which can only happen when there is no trying or wishing to have it. This is the way to knowing more about the difference between kusala and akusala which can condition the arising of more kusala. I appreciate you sharing this as it has been good to think about it more. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Continuation: > > L: I appreciate so much acharn, that during this 7 days, we didnt talk on satipatthana at all. This is so helpful. Instead we learned about realities now, different characteristic to appear, that are self at all. > > A.S: Yes, because for satipatthana there must be so keen panna. And it must grow first. The satipatthana will come when the panna will become keen enought, for satipathana to arise, and not be forgetful of each reality, that appears to right understanding. Without this satipattha never arise. If someone thinks one can make or try satipatthana to arise, and even dont know what sati is, sati will never arise. So that's why we live our life. Like that, see, like this is now. There is only ignorance, but remember never mind it to be different. Just know this is exactly like now, while we standing here. There is ignorance that ignores realities. But is there any hardness right now? > > L: Yes, it is. > > A.S: See, but the panna is not strong enought to now it right now. That's why we learn about realities right now. Visible object is there and hardness is there. There are exactly like now. And when satipatthana arise they will be exactly the same. No difference. But the sati must arise naturaly. Never mind about words, this is not in the book. Learn what appears now, and no need to name it. Books are only an introduction for those who wants to develop more understanding. > > She than said: Appreciate goodness. Dont do goodness. Just appreciate whenever it appears. Dont try to have it. Than you will see what goodness is, and how to have more goodness. You can see when it appears, this is so different than all kinds of akusala when they arise. > > She explained Triple Gems, Taking a shelter in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > > I asked that it is so hard to know Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. And people leaded by ignorance do it morning and evening, with ignmorance. > > A.S > No, they do it, cause they cannot do anything else for that time. You can see that they do it, because this is the first thing they do after waking up. A great understanding. They have no accumulations for coffe at the morning. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #126622 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:23 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 glenjohnann Hello JJ, Lukas, Sarah, Woftek, Jon, Gabi, Nina and All I agree, Jagkrit, that the opportunity for those of us living outside Thailand was wonderful in every way. Seven days of lengthy discussions both in formal sessions and at meals was a unique opportunity to discuss, learn and hear unending reminders about practice now. So much appreciation for Achan's generosity and kind attention to all of our concerns and questions and her skill in speaking with us. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Hi Ann, Lukas, Sarah, Wojtek, Jon, Gabi, Nina and All > > Ann: Thank you Lukas for sharing with us your last conversation with Achan. It expresses so well the essence of much of our discussions. These words have been running though my mind a lot since we all parted on Monday - "just visible object, no one there". > > Ann: Lukas, I so appreciated all of your questions. They all made the discussions so valuable and memorable. We were very blessed by Achan's unending enthusiasm and very explicit reminders about the present moment and the essence of "practice" now. Wojtek, same for your interest and questions. I admired your patience and candour while in the "hot seat". > ------------------------------- > > JJ: I'm also thankful for Lukas's posting the last words of T.A. Sujin. Even they were the last words in Poland but they will stay for long in our mind (Sanna) for kusala vitaka. > > And Ann is right. T.A. Sujin spent one week remind us how important of "present moment" is. It is countless on her words mentioning the awareness of present moment through seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. > > T.A. Sujin, once, said that dhamma friends who live outside Thailand can hardly have frequent discussion, therefore, this discussion in Poland should be worth it with real dhamma for right understanding, not only wording or stories. > > Thank you again for everybody in Ozlstyn, Poland to share the precious dhamma discussion moment. Especialy, Sarah who triedlessly arranged very nice forum for discussions and Jon who was very busy with all discussion records for everyone to here in DSG storage. Jon, you will have big muscle on your arms by now after swinging back and forth the microphone handle to have nice sound. > > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > #126623 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:59 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 szmicio Dear Ann, I agree. There is a Sutta on Metta, non-angriness: Khp 9. Best wishes Lukas > Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. We go along with our lives thinking that it is good to "do good" - and that is where subtle lobha and wrong effort often come into play. We want to "be a good person". But kusala can only arise naturally when there are condition, just like understanding. She is saying that understanding of goodness can grow as there is more appreciation of it - which can only happen when there is no trying or wishing to have it. This is the way to knowing more about the difference between kusala and akusala which can condition the arising of more kusala. #126624 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 sarahprocter... Dear Ann & Lukas, Glad to read your comments > From: glenjohnann >Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. ... S: Yes, an important point. If there's any trying to be a good person, wanting to have metta, panna or anything else....it's all wrong again, all clinging to self once more. As is always stressed, understanding can only be with detachment to what is conditioned now, and that means understanding all kinds of dhammas for what they are when they appear, including seeing, visible object, 'goodness', lobha or whatever else. If 'goodness' is not known it cannot develop, just as if 'lobha' is not known when it appears, the harm in it will never be seen. Understanding now - the middle path. Lukas, glad to read your series. I like the reminder about when we wake up - is there any understanding of dhamma, any respect for the triple gem or just thoughts of coffee or other worldly concerns? Whatever - another dhamma, another dhatu that can be known as anatta. Metta Sarah p.s. Lukas, remember to send me a safe address off-list to send KIng Milinda's qus to. ====== #126625 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:12 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) szmicio Dear Phil, > > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. > > > Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. L: Try to catch a poisonous snake by the tail. Best wishes Lukas #126626 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:42 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi Lukas "Try to catch a poisonous snake by the tail." Nice one! Trying to use akusala for kusala purposes is much more deadly than we think. All akusala is dangerous. Any moments of kusala within all our attachments are what are valuable. Seeing value in the attachments, even to our loved ones, is akusala. There is no value in attachment. Only in understanding, with detachment. And in such moments, rare as they are, we provide the most truly beneficial assistance to our loved ones. Understand is always best. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > > > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. > > > > > > Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. > > L: Try to catch a poisonous snake by the tail. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #126627 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Collateral Damages jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah Very nice answering! I will refer to the one who raised this question. S: Perhaps you are familiar with the Migajala Sutta, SN 35:63, which has always been a favourite of mine because it emphasises how living alone, living at peace, depends on the citta, the mind, and not on the physical environment because ignorance and attachment are the real disturbances in life: JJ: This is perfect sutta teaching to watch out kilasa every where because it arises with inner citta not outside at all. Very nice one. Thank you and Anumodhana Sarah Jagkrit #126628 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah, Ann, Lukas, all Ann: > >Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. > ... > S: Yes, an important point. If there's any trying to be a good person, wanting to have metta, panna or anything else....it's all wrong again, all clinging to self once more. ============= JJ: Is this collateral damages? When one tries to eradicate kilasa with self, one kilasa's gone but another comes. S: As is always stressed, understanding can only be with detachment to what is conditioned now, and that means understanding all kinds of dhammas for what they are when they appear, including seeing, visible object, 'goodness', lobha or whatever else. If 'goodness' is not known it cannot develop, just as if 'lobha' is not known when it appears, the harm in it will never be seen. > > Understanding now - the middle path. > ====== JJ: Understanding dhammas is the only clear cut with panna along the way. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126629 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:39 pm Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (7) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (FEELING) [21] 465. "Kati panaayye, vedanaa"ti? "Tisso kho imaa, aavuso visaakha, vedanaa: sukhaa vedanaa, dukkhaa vedanaa, adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa"ti. [21] 22. "Lady, how many kinds of feeling are there?" "Friend Visakha, there are three kinds of feeling: pleasant feeling (sukhaa vedanaa), painful feeling (dukkhaa vedanaa), and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa)." --------------------- [22] "Katamaa panaayye, sukhaa vedanaa, katamaa dukkhaa vedanaa, katamaa adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa"ti? "Ya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayika.m vaa cetasika.m vaa sukha.m saata.m vedayita.m aya.m sukhaa vedanaa. Ya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayika.m vaa cetasika.m vaa dukkha.m asaata.m vedayita.m aya.m dukkhaa vedanaa. Ya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayika.m vaa cetasika.m vaa neva saata.m naasaata.m vedayita.m aya.m adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa"ti. [22] 23. "But, lady, what is pleasant feeling? What is painful feeling? What is neither painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visakha, whatever is felt bodily or mentally as pleasant and soothing is pleasant feeling. Whatever is felt bodily or mentally as painful and hurting is painful feeling. Whatever is felt bodily or mentally as neither soothing nor hurting is neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling." --------------------- [23] "Sukhaa panaayye, vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, dukkhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa"ti? "Sukhaa kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaa .thitisukhaa vipari.naamadukkhaa; dukkhaa vedanaa .thitidukkhaa vipari.naamasukhaa ; adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.nasukhaa a~n~naa.nadukkhaa"ti. [23] 24. "Lady, what is pleasant and what is painful in regard to pleasant feeling? What is painful and what is pleasant in regard to painful feeling? What is pleasant and what is painful in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visakha, pleasant feeling is pleasant when it persists and painful when it changes (sukhaa vedanaa .thiti sukhaa, vipari.naama dukkhaa). Painful feeling is painful when it persists and pleasant when it changes (dukkhaa vedanaa .thiti dukkhaa, vipari.naama sukhaa). Neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge [of it] and painful when there is no knowledge [of it] (adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.na sukhaa, a~n~naa.na dukkhaa)." ---------------------- To be continued. with metta, Han #126630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:13 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, During the seminar we discussed the abstaining from different kinds of wrong speech. Only abstention from lying is included in the five precepts, but we should see the benefit of abstaining from all kinds of wrong speech. Laypeople may observe five precepts, but on Uposatha Day many laypeople in Sri Lanka observe eight precepts. Refraining from eating after midday, from using cosmetics and wearing jewelry, and from lying on high and soft beds are included in the eight precepts. Acharn Sujin pointed out that laypeople who develop satipatthåna can undertake another set of eight precepts. In addition to the five precepts one can observe three precepts with regard to speech. Apart from refraining from lying which is among the five precepts, one can train oneself in refraining from slandering, harsh speech and useless, idle talk. Thus, in this set of eight precepts there are four with regard to speech. One can train oneself each day in these eight precepts. We are often forgetful and heedless with regard to our speech. It is beneficial to know more about the types of citta which motivate our speech. During the seminar we discussed different kinds of unwholesome speech. Someone remarked that it is so difficult to refrain from gossiping when people around us are doing so. In society gossip is considered a means to keep the conversation going; before we realize it we have added a little to the disagreeable things others say about someone else. When we are forgetful we give in to wrong speech. If there is more right understanding of the present moment, this will condition refraining from gossip. Instead of gossip there can be mettå and karunå. With regard to idle, useless talk, we may find it very difficult to refrain from it when we are in conversation with others. We are tempted to think that since only the arahat has eradicated conditions for this kind of talk we can wholeheartedly engage in it. We cannot be perfect, but if we realize more often whether the citta of the present moment is kusala citta or akusala citta we shall see the value of abstaining from wrong speech, even if it is more subtle such as idle, useless speech. Acharn Sujin adviced us to speak more often with mettå and karunå. Even when the conversation is about the weather or about relatives we can speak with kusala citta. Many different types of citta can think of such topics as the weather or relatives. Mettå, karunå, muditå (sympthetic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity) have to be developed in daily life, also during our ordinary conversations. When we, for example, speak about the weather that has improved we may think of the wellbeing of other people who may profit from good weather. Is the citta kusala citta or akusala citta while we are talking? The citta that motivates speech cannot be ‘neutral’, it is either kusala citta or akusala citta. Most of the time it is akusala citta. The best cure for wrong speech is right mindfulness of the nåmas and rúpas that appear through the six doors, no matter whether we are speaking or whether we are silent. When right mindfulness arises, the six doors are “guarded”, and this is a way of síla, the “virtue of restraint of the faculties” (indriya samvara síla, Visuddhimagga I, 42). When there is no mindfulness, all kinds of akusala are bound to arise on account of what is experienced through the six doors. -------- Nina. #126631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:37 pm Subject: Death and separation. nilovg Dear friends, Death and separation. This morning I heard something that is very suitable for my situation just now. Kh Sujin spoke about detachment with relation to the vipassanaa ~naanas. After the three first vipassanaa stages, which are still tender insight, there is the first stage of principal insight , mahaa-vipassanaa: the realisation of the arising and falling away of each naama and ruupa that appear. One cannot reach this stage without awareness of realities through all the six doorways. At this stage there is more detachment and one realises that there is no self nor someone else. When we are attached to someone we cling mostly to ourself. We cling to the happy feeling that is due to the company of someone else, family and dear people. Everything is for the sake of ourselves. We should know that there is nothing that belongs to ourselves. Through pa~n~naa we can detach more from bondages. Even though this attachment is not yet eradicated, detachment can be accumulated as sa.nkhaarakkhanda, the khandha of formations. When satipa.t.thaana is developed vipassanaa ~naa.nas, stages of insight can arise, and when the first stage of principal insight arises it is vipassanaa as power, balava vipassanaa. Then there will be more detachment from self and others. In daily life we are intent on pleasure and that is the cause of dukkha. We should listen to the Dhamma so that there will be firm remembrance of the Dhamma and conditions for the development of kusala. In daily life we should not try to change anything or force ourselves to let go of the bonds we have with family and dear people. Our life is as it used to be but the citta can change. Before we had strong clinging but gradually this can decrease. When there are attachment and ignorance this conditions strong clinging. When there is evenmindedness (tatramajjhattataa) and pa~n~naa, our life is as it used to be but there will be less clinging. Lobha is the cause of dukkha. ********* Nina. #126632 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:53 pm Subject: Re: Death and separation. szmicio Dear Nina, > This morning I heard something that is very suitable for my situation > just now. Kh Sujin spoke about detachment with relation to the > vipassanaa ~naanas. After the three first vipassanaa stages, which > are still tender insight, there is the first stage of principal > insight , mahaa-vipassanaa: the realisation of the arising and > falling away of each naama and ruupa that appear. One cannot reach > this stage without awareness of realities through all the six > doorways. At this stage there is more detachment and one realises > that there is no self nor someone else. L: I think Acharn talked on vipassana ~nanas. She mentioned that first one, just knows what is nama and what is ruupa. Still doesnt know conditions. She said something like no knowing conditions before knowing nama and ruupa. Later she add that defilements are so deeply rooted that this vipassana nanas cannot eradicate defilements. The ~nanas must grow so much that later arising and falling away of each reality must grow more and more. That's how i remembered that. Best wishes Lukas #126633 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:04 pm Subject: The last words for Poland, part 3 szmicio Dear friends, Acharn than talked on sacca ~nana, whatever that means. She said intelectuall understanding very very helpful. Before any direct understanding of realities, there must be so strong sacca ~nana first. Without this kicca ~nana will never arise. People who didnt heard anything about teachings they cannot develop satipatthana. That's why we develop more firm understanding, that is sacca ~nana. She said knowing just words, is like calling someone form distance. That's why we learn more and more on realities, right now. Sacca ~nana. I asked, if this is good to have kusala in Dhamma-vinaya. She said: Only right now. Is it beneficial to read vinaya? Acharn: Yes, for everyone. No need to count how many siilas there is. She explained what is writen on Thai T-shirt from Dhamma Study and Support Fundation: "Develop godness and study Dhamma". Best wishes Lukas #126634 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death and separation. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for an excellent post and a timely reminder. with my best wishes to you and Lodewijk, Han --- On Sat, 9/22/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Death and separation. When we are attached to someone we cling mostly to ourself. We cling to the happy feeling that is due to the company of someone else, family and dear people. Everything is for the sake of ourselves. We should know that there is nothing that belongs to ourselves. Through pa~n~naa we can detach more from bondages. Even though this attachment is not yet eradicated, detachment can be accumulated as sa.nkhaarakkhanda, the khandha of formations. When satipa.t.thaana is developed vipassanaa ~naa.nas, stages of insight can arise, and when the first stage of principal insight arises it is vipassanaa as power, balava vipassanaa. Then there will be more detachment from self and others. In daily life we are intent on pleasure and that is the cause of dukkha. We should listen to the Dhamma so that there will be firm remembrance of the Dhamma and conditions for the development of kusala. In daily life we should not try to change anything or force ourselves to let go of the bonds we have with family and dear people. Our life is as it used to be but the citta can change. Before we had strong clinging but gradually this can decrease. When there are attachment and ignorance this conditions strong clinging. When there is evenmindedness (tatramajjhattataa) and pa~n~naa, our life is as it used to be but there will be less clinging. Lobha is the cause of dukkha. Nina. #126635 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to the Topics of Abhidhamma adn Commentary, pg 274 <> Dispeller of Delusion under subject of Awakening Factors <<1523. So tatha sato viharanto <227.9> ("he dwelling thus mindful"): that bhikkhu dwelling by being mindful with mindfulness arisen in that way. Tam dhammam ("that state"): that state long done, long spoken of, of the kind stated above. Pannaya pavicinati ("investigates with understanding"): he investigates with understanding as impermanent, painful, no self. [313] Pavicarati <227.10> ("examines"): he examines by making understanding by way of impermanence, pain and no self explore there. Parivimamsam apajjati ("embarks upon a scrutiny"): enters upon a survey, a search. Ayam vuccati ("this is called"): this insight knowledge which originates awakening factors of the kind aforesaid, is called the investigation-of-states awakening factor. >> Dispeller of Delusion under subject of Satipatthana <<1309. But the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor comes about thus: There are profitable and unprofitable states, bhikkhus, blameful and blameless states, states to be cultivated and not to be cultivated, states low and high, states dark and bright with their counterparts. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, or leads to growth, increase, development and perfection of the arisen investigation-of-states enlightenment factor'5' (S v 66).>> Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126636 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1310. |276| Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor: (1) asking questions, (2) the act of cleansing the basis, (3) imparting of evenness to the five faculties, (4) avoidance of persons of no understanding, (5) cultivation of persons of understanding, (6) reviewing the field for the exercise of profound knowledge, (7) being resolved thereon. 1311. Herein, (1) "asking questions" is repeated questioning about the meaning of the aggregates, elements, bases, faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, path factors, jhana factors, tranquillity and insight. 1312. (2) "The act of cleansing the basis" is the cleansing of the personal and external basis; for when one's head-hair, nails and body-hair are too long, or the body has an excess of [one of] the humours (ussanna-dosa)^ and is stained and smeared with sweat, then the personal basis is unclean and unpurified. But when the robes are worn, dirty and ill-smelling, or the abode is soiled, then the external basis is unclean and unpurified. So the cleansing of the personal basis should be done by cutting the head-hair, etc., by lightening the body by means of emetics and purgatives and by shampooing and bathing. The external basis should be cleansed by means of sewing, washing, dyeing, mending, etc. For when this personal and external basis is unclean, also knowledge about arisen consciousnesses and conscious components is unpurified, like the light from a crest of flame arisen dependent on an impure lamp- bowl, wick and oil. But when the personal and external basis is clean, also knowledge about arisen consciousnesses and conscious components is purified, like the light from a crest of flame arisen dependent on a pure lamp-bowl, wick and oil. Hence it was said [above]: "The act of cleansing the basis leads to the arising of the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor." >> KC #126637 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:09 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states 3 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1313. (3) "Imparting of evenness to the [five] faculties" is a name for the act of equalising the faculties beginning with faith. For if one's faith faculty is strong and the rest slack, then the energy faculty will be unable to exercise its function of exerting, the mindfulness faculty its function of establishing, the concentration faculty its function of non-distraction and the understanding faculty its unction of seeing. Therefore that [faith faculty] should be diminished by means of reviewing the [real] nature of the object [causing excessive faith] or by not bringing it to mind by as much as it is in excess in him who is bringing it to mind. And here the story of the Elder Vakkali is the illustration (see S lii 119). But if the energy faculty |277| is strong, then neither can the faith faculty exercise its function of resolving nor the others their other [respective] functions. Therefore that [energy faculty] should be diminished by means of the development of tranquillity and so on. And here the story of the Elder Sona should be pointed out (see Vin i 182; A iii 374). And also with the rest: when one has too much strength, the others are unable to exercise their other [respective] functions; so it should be understood. 1314. In particular, however, they here praise the equalising of (the faculties of] faith with understanding and of concentration with energy. One of strong faith and lax understanding is foolishly trust- ful and trusts without grounds. One of strong understanding and lax faith partakes of craftiness and is incurable like a disease caused by medicine. [Thinking:] 'Profitable [kamma] comes about by the mere entertaining of the thought' he goes too far and, through not performing meritorious deeds, by way of gifts, etc., he reappears in hell. Through the equalising of the two one is confident [but] only with grounds. 1315. Indolence overcomes one who is strong in concentration and lax in energy because of concentration's tendency to indolence. Agitation overcomes one who is strong in energy and lax in con- centration because of energy's tendency to agitation. But concentration yoked to energy does not fall into indolence; and energy yoked to concentration does not fall into agitation. Therefore equal- ising of the two should be effected. For absorption comes about through the equalisation of the two. 1316. Furthermore, strong faith is fitting for one who is working on concentration; for he thus reaches absorption through faith and trust. But as regards concentration and understanding, strong one- pointedness is fitting for one who is working on concentration; for he thus reaches absorption. Strong understanding is fitting for one Who is working on insight; for thus he reaches penetration of the characteristics. But due to the equalising of these two there comes be absorption for sure. I317 But strong mindfulness is fitting throughout; for mindfulness protects the mind from falling into agitation through [excess of] faith, energy and understanding which tend to agitation, and from falling into indolence through [excess of] concentration which tends to indolence. Therefore it is desirable throughout, like the salt seasoning in all curries and like the minister-of-all-work in all the king's affairs. Hence it is said:57 fcAnd indeed mindfulness has been stated as all-helpful by the Blessed One' (cf. S v 115). For what reason? Because the mind has its refuge in mindfulness, |278| and mindfulness is manifested as protection. And there is no exerting or restraining of the mind without mindfulness.>> KC #126638 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:12 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states 4 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1318. (4) Avoidance of persons of no understanding" means avoiding from afar unintelligent persons who lack firm understanding of the classes of aggregates, etc. 1319. (5) "Cultivation of persons of understanding" is a name for the cultivation of persons endowed with understanding of rise and fall which lays hold of the fifty characteristics (see Ps i 54-57) equally. 1320. (6) "Reviewing the field for the exercise of profound knowledge" means reviewing in various ways by means of profound understanding which occurs in respect of the profound aggregates, etc. 1321. (7) "Being resolved thereon" means the tending, inclining and leaning of the mind thereto for the purpose of arousing the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor while standing, sitting, etc. 1322. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path that there comes to be the perfection through development of that [investigation-of-states enlightenment factor] which has arisen.>> KC #126639 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 ashkenn2k Dear Phil and Howard there is always chanda. One needs chanda to be a Buddha. So it not necessary just because one wants to go somewhere is all conditioned by lobha. When one go to the temple to pay respect to the Buddha or to listen to a sermon, it is kusala chanda. One desiring result may not be greed, just like what I said one needs chanda to be a Buddha. Just like in the stories of Buddha, there are instances where Buddha while he was developing his paramis, desiring merit, perform service to Silent Buddhas. Thanks KC #126640 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) ashkenn2k Dear Rob E Rob E: That is interesting to hear. So there is no explanation for how kusala accumulates? This is another of my personal view. Everything when a sense citta arises, feeling, perception, kamma, etc will also arise. Though they are weak and neutral, they could set the stage for kusala or akusala dhamma to arise at the javana stage. These cetasikas do accumulate when they arise and I believe the accumulation part is through the javana process only as in the the sense citta they are weak. Mindfulness of the body parts is to change the way we perceive what we take pleasurable in our body to be foul. this strengthening of the foul perception accumulated through the javana process where perception cetasika also arise. In future it will help when a sense object arise in the sense door, so that the subsequent javana process of the sense process will be kusala as perception at the sense citta that accumulates noted it as foul rather than pleasurable. This habitual process of feelings towards a pleasurable object or perception of a pleasurable at the arising of sense cittas, conditioned by them, will cause the arisen of kusala and aksuala KC #126641 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:58 pm Subject: Poland audio 1 & 2 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Due to quite a few requests, we're trying to get installments of very part-edited audio extracts uploaded quickly. I even heard today that a group of friends in Vietnam listen most evenings to the edited discussions. So with pleasure, we've now uploaded the first two sessions with K.Sujin held on the morning and over lunch-time of 10th Sept. Her attendance in the morning was unexpected as she'd announced the night before (when we arrived around midnight at our hotel after her two flights from Bangkok) that she wouldn't be joining us, but changed her mind in the morning. The audio (and the ones to follow) can be found towards the end of the audio section under "Editing in Progress - Poland". http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Please let Jon or Pt know if you have any difficulty downloading. The questions/comments to K.Sujin are mostly from Alberto, Lukas, Wojtek, Ann and ourselves These were the first set of notes I wrote at the time for the morning session, giving me a chance to read them and correct some typos: ***** >S:This morning we had a lovely discussion outside in the garden overlooking the lake - a crisp, sunny morning - sitting close to Ajahn Sujin as we listened to her and added our contributions. She seems particularly happy to be hear as do all the group. One word - understand one word at a time. Dhamma. What is dhamma now? Life is in a moment, from moment to moment . If there is not this moment, is there life? Who can know what will happen at the next moment? Will it be thinking, seeing or hearing? No expectations! Always looking for that which is gone and cannot be found. The Teachings are about the absolute truth. The lake, the people, the table, the friends, all just ideas, not the truth at this moment. A Polish friend, Wojtek raised the issue of meditation and retreats. Ajahn asked if this was by ignorance or right understanding. What is the motivation? If it's for happiness, we can just drink coffee! If there is no attachment, one will not sit or follow it anymore. Give it up! Lots on seeing and visible object. Seeing - no rupa mixed in it, no self that experiences at all. Seeing as 'pandara' - the chief in experiencing, pure. It just sees, not anything else. Lukas asked about studying and hearing - it seems like the slow way and life is still so painful. What do we study Dhamma for? To avoid pain? Lots of expectations. The purpose should be just to understand, not to avoid difficulties. Everyone has to die sooner or later - with ignorance or with some understanding? Is it a little understanding or a lot - either way must be the right understanding of whatever appears. The truth is that life changes - pain, attachment, aversion - let it come with right understanding. Otherwise, just more sorrow and pain if one studies with attachment and expectations. A comment by Wojtek about less seeing and disturbance in the quiet place as compared to the city. Seeing is seeing, no matter who or where. What does one like to have? Happiness which changes and is so short or understanding? Seeing is not happy or unhappy. Happiness just passes away. Understanding must develop to know more. feelings - happy, unhappy or indifferent - all anatta, all pass away. Delirious thinking about cats and dogs or about 5khandhas, 8fold path or any other dhamma topic one doesn't understand or is not related to reality now. The role of vitakka touching the object of delirious thinking or thinking wisely about realities now, coming closer and closer to the truth to condition right understanding and patipatti.< ***** Metta Sarah ===== #126642 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland audio 1 & 2 sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Nina & friends, Lukas made a comment that some of the meal time discussions he had with K.Sujin were the best and the first part-edited lunch-time audio we've just uploaded is a wonderful example. K.Sujin is talking about attachment to another person and the inevitable grief which follows. A few notes, I just jotted down as I listened to it. She starts by asking "whom do you love most?". "See, come back to the truth." Anytime there is painful feeling it's because of ignorance. Painful feeling, thinking of another. What about previous lives? No meaning now.... let time pass and you'll know there can be greater attachment than this. This is very little, she says. When one knows it's more benefit, the mind turns towards panna instead of thinking over again with painful feeling. Other things are far more precious than the attachment or object of attachment because the object of attachment is just rupa. In reality, you are attached to mahabhuta rupa and derived rupas, that's all! So no matter what happens, develop understanding. When something happens and there's no understanding, it's much worse. The difference is between ignorance and understanding. One is not safe as long as there is akusala. Kusala saves one from akusala. Just being attached to oneself is not enough, wanting more fire, danger.... What about metta, much better than clinging. It doesn't hurt at all. (She then talks beautifully about metta.) Who was your dear one in the last life? See, no more. There will be more later for sure. So just forget that - no use. It's gone. The new one is coming very fast, again and again and again. Non-stop until panna grows. This will repeat from life to life to life. I hope many of you have a chance to listen to these discussions and add any comments. Metta Sarah ===== #126643 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Sarah Jane), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Thanks for your further explanation. My reaction was a little strident, probably because of the story of my cousin. Hope your cold gets better soon. (Whenever I get a cold I take the opportunity to double or even triple dose codeine- based medicine. You see, I have that tendency lurking in me as well, thus the stridency...) ... S: I think we all have addictive tendencies - we're all addicted to pleasant feeling and ourselves, manifesting in different ways. This is why, whatever Dhamma we hear, it's a lesson for us all. Just to add (it'll probably come up on an audio), a couple of times K.Sujin told Lukas about a guy in Bkk who has listened to her for years, but regularly needs to go to a hospital for addiction treatment. Forget if I mentioned that. Whatever way life goes, right understanding always the most useful. I'm now pretty well recovered from cold, flu, cough, tummy bug.....long stories.... and now Jon's turn:-)) Still just visible object, hardness and more thinking.... metta Sarah ====== #126644 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:47 pm Subject: More Poland pics sarahprocter... Dear Friends, More pics, mainly from our discussions as selected by Jagkrit from the large number taken by Dream's boyfriend, Boon. Dream is Jagkrit's daughter who'll be heard on the audio in due course. She mentioned she might join us here as well (hint, hint, Dream!) All the pics are in a temporary Poland album. Metta Sarah ===== #126645 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt & all, S: Another idea! > From: ptaus1 >I don't understand what is triplet 9 in the matrix pointing to, and how is it different from triplet 8? Here they are for comparison: > >Pali: > >8. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbaa dhammaa. >(kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. >(ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. > >9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. > >English - Khine: > >8. Dassana Tika: >(i) Dhammaa eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1006, 1405) >(ii) Dhammaa eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1011, 1406) >(iii) Dhammaa not eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1012, 1407) > >9. Dassana Hetuka Tika: >(i) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1013, 1408) >(ii) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1018, 1409) >(iii) Dhammaa which have no other root causes to associate with and which are eliminated neither by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1019, 1410) > >pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". .... S: Another possible suggestion..... In the case of i) and ii) the dhammaa are the same. There are 12 akusala cittas and 4 kinds rooted in moha and lobha (i.e the four kinds with wrong view) plus one kind rooted in moha only (the one with doubt) are eradicated by the sotapanna. All the other kinds of akusala cittas are eradicated by the higher maggas. In the case of iii), in 8. Dassana Tika, all other dhammaa are included (other than those referred to in i) and ii). In the case of iii), in 9. Dassana Hetuka Tika, where I understand the dhammaa with roots are the subject matter, all other dhammaa are included as before *except* those other dhammaa with roots, i.e. all sobhana cittas (which are all rooted in alobha and amoha). In other words, I'm suggesting that this might refer to the same dhammaa as in 8 iii minus all sobhana cittas which are hetukaa dhammaa. Whether this is right or not, there are countless akusala cittas arising now with tenacious roots after moments of seeing and hearing. Those unwholesome roots can only be eradicated by the magga cittas as stressed above. There are also various sobhana cittas arising with roots. These include not only kusala cittas, but also kusala vipaka cittas and the kiriya cittas of the arahat.* Then there are the other kinds of dhamma remaining without roots, such as the akusala vipaka cittas and most kiriya cittas. It's rather like the discussion we had on dhatus, elements and classifications in Poland. Whatever the groupings, it shows all kinds of dhammaa, realities are included, no atta to be found anywhere. Metta Sarah * the following is from "Conditions" by Nina, ch 1, 'root condition'" http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/conditions/d/doc2901.html "When akusala citta arises it is always rooted in moha, and it may have in addition the root of lobha or of dosa. The twelve types of akusala citta are classified according to hetu: eight types are rooted in moha and lobha, and they are called lobha-mula-cittas,2 two types are rooted in moha and dosa, and they are called dosa-mula-cittas,3 two types are rooted only in moha, and they are called moha-mula-cittas4. All sobhana cittas have to be rooted in alobha and adosa and they may or may not be rooted in amoha or panna as well. Of the eight types of maha-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere),5 the eight types of maha-vipakacittas and the eight types or maha-kiriyacittas (of the arahat),6 four types out of the eight are accompanied by panna and four types are not accompanied by panna, thus, accompanied by two sobhana hetus.7" ... 2. Mula also means root. Four types are accompanied by somanassa, pleasant feeling, four types by wrong view, four types are asankharika, not-induced or spontaneous, four types are sasankharika, induced. Altogether there are eight types.3. One type is not-induced and one type is induced.4. One is called accompanied by restlessness, uddhacca, and one is accompanied by doubt, vicikiccha.5. Maha means great.6. The arahat does not have akusala cittas nor kusala cittas, he does not perform kamma which produces result. When he has sobhana cittas, cittas accompanied by beautiful qualities, they are inoperative, maha-kiriyacittas which do not produce result.7. Four types are accompanied by somanassa, pleasant feeling, four types are accompanied by upekkha, indifferent feeling. Four types are asankharika, not induced, four types are sasankharika, induced. ===================== #126646 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna sarahprocter... Hi Wojtek, Your voice comes over well on the audio. Hope you and Maya have had a chance to listen. The part-edited ones we're uploading may be easier to follow the questioners and any loud noises are cut out which is a great advantage if one is listening while dozing on a long-haul flight! One question on your question below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wojciechczypicki" wrote: > The question is: if there is no need to do something, why give teachings about effort/doing something? .... S: To give another example which may be more obvious, why do you think the Buddha taught about lobha, attachment and its danger? Was it because you or I could do something about it and stop it from arising? Or was it so that there could be the development of understanding of its nature when it arises, like now? .... > Just to explain how things work? Guys - there is nothing to be done, but since you came, let me give you a short description of a way to Nibbana. No need to make notes as everything happens by conditions. .... S: Nothing to be done, no you or I who came anywhere, but dhammas are arising now and can be understood. Such understanding is the way, but no one can make it arise. Metta Sarah ===== #126647 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han & Alberto, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah (Alberto, Nina, all), > > I will try to interpret. > > [Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa] that person practices the four foundations of mindfulness. "vissajjana" literally means bestowing or giving away, but it would not make sense; and so I have changed it. > > [maggakkha.ne] at the moment of magga. > > [catukiccasaadhanavasena] by the effect of fulfilling the four tasks or performing the four functions. What four functions? The path consciousness (maggacitta) simultaneously performs four functions, one with respect to each of the four truths. These four functions are the full understanding (pari~n~naa) of suffering; the abandoning (pahaana) of craving, its origin; the realization (sacchikiriya) of Nibbaana, its cessation; and the developement (bhaavanaa) of the Noble Eightfold Path. [page 355 of CMA] > > [uppannaa sati] sati arises. This sati must be the supramundane sati, because of the preceding account of magga and four functions. ... S: Helpful, thank you Han. ... > > [saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m] because of the above, or taking the above as the condition, the samaadhi arises. This samaadhi must also be supra-mundane samaadhi. > I take nimitta, here, meaning attribute, reason, condition (not "sign" as Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has remarked.). .... S: As you and Alberto have stressed, Visaakha was an anagami and I think it is the anagami samaadhi that is being referred to. (Later we read about nirodha samapatti, only available to anagamis and arahats). Alberto mentioned that 'samaadhinimitta' is found along with 'adhicitta' in the texts and we know it is only the anagami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight), so perhaps we can say the text is referring to satipatthana which has led to the path consciousness of the anagami here. Now, if there is any understanding of what appears as a reality, there is calm, it is the beginning of the development of adhi sila, adhi citta, adhi panna. It's really only by such development that eventually such passages might be properly understood! Thank you again for sharing all your work and for the helpful series. Metta === #126648 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil) - In a message dated 9/22/2012 4:52:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Phil and Howard there is always chanda. One needs chanda to be a Buddha. So it not necessary just because one wants to go somewhere is all conditioned by lobha. When one go to the temple to pay respect to the Buddha or to listen to a sermon, it is kusala chanda. One desiring result may not be greed, just like what I said one needs chanda to be a Buddha. Just like in the stories of Buddha, there are instances where Buddha while he was developing his paramis, desiring merit, perform service to Silent Buddhas. Thanks KC ================================ This is as I see it, with the disclaimer that, interspersed, are also many moments of atta-based craving and aversion. Even during periods of what seem to be (and largely are) periods of wholesome activity and mentality, our defilements do arise. (I see this not as a pessimistic view but as a realistic one.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126649 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Poland 13 sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > Listening to Khun Sujin also helps to realize the depth of the truth of the Buddha's teachings which otherwise turn into the conventional teachings which one reads or studies in the translations of the tipitaka. > > Only pa~n~naa can really understand what the Buddha was actually saying 2500 years ago and we are fortunate enough to have a very good friend like Khun Sujin to explaining it to us in plain English. ... S: True! ... > I remember she asked the question What is the purpose of studying/listening to the Dhamma? > And I don't think we've provided the 'right' answer yet, which is always somehow self-related, like my own 'to get (myself) out of samsara'. ... S: Yes, usually we think of something for 'me' yet again' or something for the 'outer world'. However the right purpose is just studying Dhamma for the sake of understanding. I can say this, but it's really helpful to truthfully consider the purpose, like now. is there a wish to gain anything for oneself now? ... > PS Thank you and Jagkrit for the excellent talks' reports. ... S: Thx, Alberto. I rather ran out of steam towards the end, but now we have Lukas and others adding their own reports and as we get the recordings uploaded, lots of material for anyone to add comments/transcribe passages. So glad you joined us and your questions/comments come over clearly on the audio too. Metta Sarah ====== #126650 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > My physical condition is deteriorating slowly. All my major illnesses are under control. But I have general weakness of all my muscles in the whole body. I cannot walk as fast as and as far as before. Besides, I feel dizzy when I get up and when I walk. So when I go out alone, I wear a tag around my neck bearing my name and telephone numbers to contact. I also keep a mobile phone in my shirt pocket. Fortunately, my mental condition is still good. ... S: That is very fortunate indeed. There is still the opportunity to study the Dhamma and develop understanding and all kinds of kusala in this life, however short or long that might be. Last time we were just in Bkk for a short time and I didn't contact you as you'd said a while ago that you cannot travel far nowadays. From your energetic and well-researched writing and studies, no one would imagine that you (or Nina for that matter) are in your 80s. Metta Sarah ===== #126651 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:58 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? sarahprocter... Dear Phil & Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > "When one has right understanding of the citta that sees, the citta that hears or the citta that thinks, satipatthaana can arise and be aware of the characteristics of citta at that moment, and it can be known as the reality, the element that experiences something."(55) > > (end of passage) > > Ph: Does "right understanding of the citta (that sees)" mean intellectual understanding of seeing learned from the texts and by listening to the good Dhamma friend. Or does it refer to previous moments of satipatthana? Or both? ... S: There must be the very firm intellectual right understanding of present realities before satipatthana can arise and develop. This is the sacca ~naana which Lukas referred to, the firm understanding of the Truths. For example, now it is seeing which arises and sees visible object. It's a dhamma, a dhatu, which arises and falls away, not any person at all. Because it arises and falls away, it's inherently unsatisfactory, not worth clinging to at all. What is seen now is just another impermanent dhamma, no atta anywhere at all. When there's doubt and speculation about the 8fold path, future lives, memorizing of classifications not properly understood and so on, it's not sacca ~naana. This is why she stressed how vitakka ('thinking') always takes the citta away from the present reality. Metta Sarah ==== #126652 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:15 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, all, >S:When there's doubt and speculation about the 8fold path, future >lives, memorizing of classifications not properly understood and so >on, it's not sacca ~naana. This is why she stressed how vitakka >('thinking') always takes the citta away from the present reality. >=================================================== If past/future rebirths were self evident truth than one wouldn't need to think about it. Same with classifications. Even the Buddha had different types of classification (2, 3, 5,6,12,18). Different Abhidhammas had different classification schemes. If it was self evident then wouldn't there be one teaching and no doubt about that? With best wishes, Alex #126653 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, >S:K.Sujin told Lukas about a guy in Bkk who has listened to her for >years, but regularly needs to go to a hospital for addiction >treatment. Forget if I mentioned that. Whatever way life goes, right >understanding always the most useful. >=================================================== Is this purely physical addiction? Or is it mental addiction? I hope he fully recovers soon. With best wishes, Alex #126654 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:29 am Subject: Re: Poland audio 1 & 2 glenjohnann Sarah and J. Wow, that's fast work. Very much appreciated. Anumodana! Looking forward to listening very soon. Thank you very much. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Due to quite a few requests, we're trying to get installments of very part-edited audio extracts uploaded quickly. I even heard today that a group of friends in Vietnam listen most evenings to the edited discussions. > > So with pleasure, we've now uploaded the first two sessions with K.Sujin held on the morning and over lunch-time of 10th Sept. > > Her attendance in the morning was unexpected as she'd announced the night before (when we arrived around midnight at our hotel after her two flights from Bangkok) that she wouldn't be joining us, but changed her mind in the morning. > > The audio (and the ones to follow) can be found towards the end of the audio section under "Editing in Progress - Poland". > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > > Please let Jon or Pt know if you have any difficulty downloading. > > The questions/comments to K.Sujin are mostly from Alberto, Lukas, Wojtek, Ann and ourselves > > These were the first set of notes I wrote at the time for the morning session, giving me a chance to read them and correct some typos: > > ***** > >S:This morning we had a lovely discussion outside in the garden overlooking the > > lake - a crisp, sunny morning - sitting close to Ajahn Sujin as we listened to > her and added our contributions. She seems particularly happy to be hear as do > all the group. > > One word - understand one word at a time. Dhamma. What is dhamma now? Life is in > a moment, from moment to moment . If there is not this moment, is there life? > Who can know what will happen at the next moment? Will it be thinking, seeing or > hearing? No expectations! Always looking for that which is gone and cannot be > found. > > The Teachings are about the absolute truth. The lake, the people, the table, > the friends, all just ideas, not the truth at this moment. > > A Polish friend, Wojtek raised the issue of meditation and retreats. > Ajahn asked if this was by ignorance or right understanding. What is the > motivation? If it's for happiness, we can just drink coffee! If there is no > attachment, one will not sit or follow it anymore. Give it up! > > Lots on seeing and visible object. Seeing - no rupa mixed in it, no self that > experiences at all. Seeing as 'pandara' - the chief in experiencing, pure. It > just sees, not anything else. > > Lukas asked about studying and hearing - it seems like the slow way and life is > still so painful. What do we study Dhamma for? To avoid pain? Lots of > expectations. The purpose should be just to understand, not to avoid > difficulties. > > Everyone has to die sooner or later - with ignorance or with some understanding? > Is it a little understanding or a lot - either way must be the right > understanding of whatever appears. The truth is that life changes - pain, > attachment, aversion - let it come with right understanding. Otherwise, just > more sorrow and pain if one studies with attachment and expectations. > > A comment by Wojtek about less seeing and disturbance in the quiet place as > compared to the city. Seeing is seeing, no matter who or where. > > What does one like to have? Happiness which changes and is so short or > understanding? Seeing is not happy or unhappy. Happiness just passes away. > Understanding must develop to know more. feelings - happy, unhappy or > indifferent - all anatta, all pass away. > > Delirious thinking about cats and dogs or about 5khandhas, 8fold path or any > other dhamma topic one doesn't understand or is not related to reality now. The > role of vitakka touching the object of delirious thinking or thinking wisely > about realities now, coming closer and closer to the truth to condition right > understanding and patipatti.< > ***** > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #126655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland audio 1 & 2 nilovg Dear Sarah, Ann and all, Op 22-sep-2012, om 12:16 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Who was your dear one in the last life? See, no more. There will be > more later for sure. So just forget that - no use. It's gone. The > new one is coming very fast, again and again and again. Non-stop > until panna grows. This will repeat from life to life to life. ------ N: Very helpful. I listened to the first Poland discussion and I like the beginning: life is one moment, succeeding from one moment to another one, from birth to death. N: Life is one moment, this keeps us from clinging too much to stories, to situations. Thank you Ann for your lovely letter, ---- Nina. #126656 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah & Alberto, > > Han: [saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m] because of the above, or taking the above as the condition, the samaadhi arises. This samaadhi must also be supra-mundane samaadhi. I take nimitta, here, meaning attribute, reason, condition (not "sign" as Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has remarked.). .... > S: As you and Alberto have stressed, Visaakha was an anagami and I think it is the anagami samaadhi that is being referred to. (Later we read about nirodha samapatti, only available to anagamis and arahats). Alberto mentioned that 'samaadhinimitta' is found along with 'adhicitta' in the texts and we know it is only the anagami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight), so perhaps we can say the text is referring to satipatthana which has led to the path consciousness of the anagami here. Now, if there is any understanding of what appears as a reality, there is calm, it is the beginning of the development of adhi sila, adhi citta, adhi panna. It's really only by such development that eventually such passages might be properly understood! -------------------- Han: Thank you very much for your above comments. I learn a lot from it. Yes, we can say the text is referring to satipa.t.thaana which has led to the path consciousness of the anaagaami here. And I will be grateful if I can know the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. If the text reference is not easily available, that is alright, Sarah. with metta and respect, Han #126657 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind words. I wanted to see you and Jon when you came to Bangkok. But my family would not allow me to go out alone for such a distance. They allow me to go alone to the nearby Department stores only. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 9/22/12, sarah wrote: S: That is very fortunate indeed. There is still the opportunity to study the Dhamma and develop understanding and all kinds of kusala in this life, however short or long that might be. Last time we were just in Bkk for a short time and I didn't contact you as you'd said a while ago that you cannot travel far nowadays. From your energetic and well-researched writing and studies, no one would imagine that you (or Nina for that matter) are in your 80s. #126658 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah & Alberto, In my last post I have requested the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. I will try to explain the above statement by you. Please correct me if I am wrong. I consider the citta is adhi-citta when it is free from Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojana (higher fetters) and the Anusayas that correspond to the higher fetters. There are ten Sa.myojanas. Abandoned by Sotaapanna (1) ditthisa.myojana (2) vicikicchasa.myojana (3) siilabbataparaamaa sasa.myojana (4) issaasa.myojana (5) macchariyasa.myojana Abandoned by Anaagaami (6) kaamaraagasa.myojana (7) pa.tighasa.myojana Abandoned by Arahant (8) bhavaraagasa.myojana (9) maanasa.myojana (10) avijjaasa.myojana Sa.myojanas (6) to (10) are Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. Thus, by way of Sa.myojanas, your statement is supported. -------------------- There are seven Anusayas. Abandoned by Sotaapanna (1) di.t.thaanusaya (2) vicikicchaanusaya Abandoned by Anaagaami (3) kaamaraagaanusaya (4) pa.tighaanusaya Abandoned by Arahant (5) bhavaraagaanusaya (6) maanaanusaya (7) avijjaanusaya Anusayas (3) to (7) correspond to Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. Thus, by way of Anusyas, your statement is supported. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 9/23/12, han tun wrote: Dear Sarah & Alberto, Han: Thank you very much for your above comments. I learn a lot from it. Yes, we can say the text is referring to satipa.t.thaana which has led to the path consciousness of the anaagaami here. And I will be grateful if I can know the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. If the text reference is not easily available, that is alright, Sarah. #126659 From: "sukinderpal narula" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna sukinderpal Hello Wojtek, Sorry to take time to respond. > Thanks for reply. I guess I could have anticipated that answer: > > > This is why the Abhidhamma is a great help and should never be > > overlooked. Reading a Sutta and interpreting it as suggesting the need > > to do something, would be equivalent to not having heard the Buddha's > > message. It would be like going on as before, thinking and doing things > > with the idea of self and control. > > > > Those during the Buddha's time who did not need to hear the Abhidhamma > > exposition, were ones with highly developed wisdom and little tendency > > to interpret what the Buddha taught with self-view. Those of us who need > > to hear the Abhidhamma are therefore the one's who lack wisdom. > > The question is: if there is no need to do something, why give teachings about effort/doing something? > Just to explain how things work? Guys - there is nothing to be done, but since you came, let me give you a short description of a way to Nibbana. No need to make notes as everything happens by conditions. It appears that I missed your point. Is what you are asking then, why the Buddha needed to emphasize right effort in a way suggestive of "doing something" if all he wanted to point out was the existence of impersonal dhammas? Why not just point out these dhammas as is done in the Abhidhamma, to his audience? I can only guess, but you can tell me what does not make sense. To describe the Dhamma as in the Abhidhamma; this is for those who otherwise on hearing conventional teachings fail to make the reality vs. concept distinction and therefore end up misunderstanding the Dhamma. For those who had the accumulated understanding, it would not make sense to use technical language when it is in the context of normal everyday life situations that straightening of view takes place. The concepts don't change, only the understanding does. Besides, the Buddha talking to his audience was not a classroom kind of situation with a study program. Regarding effort, given that this mental factor arises with all volitional consciousness and when it is not right, must be wrong, it is easy to see why the Buddha would emphasize Right effort. In the 37 Factors of Enlightenment Right Effort stands out, and it is also one of the Perfections. But was he pointing to deliberate action with the idea of self or simply describing the role of the particular impersonal mental factor? As I said, effort arises all the time, sometimes right and sometimes wrong, and often associated with a conventional activity. What the Buddha therefore did, was simply refer to these conventional activities with the intent to differentiate right from wrong effort, one a kusala and other an akusala mental reality. He did not point at the need for some conventional activity since a call to "do something" would in fact *not* be about right effort but something else. It would be pointing to the idea of 'self' working within a situation and not about understanding a present moment reality, in this case effort. Understanding a present moment reality as against working with concepts is what distinguishes the Buddha's teachings from all other teachings. Awaiting your feedback. Metta, Sukin #126660 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:02 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Politeness which is sincere and paying respect are ways of síla. Bhante Dhammadharo pointed out that politeness may not always be sincere. We may have selfish motives for politeness, for example, when we want to have a good reputation, or when we want to obtain favours from someone else. Politeness which is kusala must be sincere. As regards paying respect, do we really understand what it is? It is not an empty gesture. Why is it wholesome to pay respect? What are the reasons for paying respect? When we see good qualities and virtues in others we can show our appreciation of these qualities through the body or through speech. We pay respect to the Buddha, not to his statue, but to his virtues; we think of his wisdom, his compassion and his purity. We pay respect to the monks because they have left their homes for the homeless life in order to “fare the brahman life completely fulfilled”. For a layman it is difficult to observe síla perfectly. Since one has to live in a house and one has to prepare food, one may find oneself in circumstances which make it difficult always to observe síla perfectly. A person who has accumulations for monkhood leaves his home for the homeless life, he leads a life of non-violence and of fewness of wishes. We read in the “Greater Discourse to Saccaka” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 36) that the Buddha said to Aggivessana: “... Now, Aggivessana, before my Self-awakening while I was still the bodhisatta, not fully awakened, it occurred to me: Narrow is the household life, a path of dust, going forth is in the open, nor is it easy while dwelling in a house to lead the Brahma-faring completely fulfilled, utterly purified, polished like a conchshell. Suppose now that I, having cut off hair and beard, having clothed myself in saffron garments, should go forth from home into homelessness?...” The goal of monkhood is arahatship and the way of life of the monk is actually the way of life of the arahat. The monks can remind us of the ariyan Sangha even when they are not ariyans, because they strive after the virtues of the ariyans. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Elevens, Ch II, § 4) that the Buddha said to Subhúti: “.... In this connection, Subhúti, a monk is virtuous, he lives restrained with the restraint of the Obligation (Påìimokkha), well equipped with range of practice, seeing danger in minutest faults, and undertaking the practice of the training applies himself thereto....” It is proper that laypeople pay respect to the monks who train themselves in observing so many rules in order to lead the “Brahma- faring completely fulfilled”. At the moments of paying respect there are no lobha, dosa or moha, no jealousy or conceit. When we are jealous of others or when we have conceit, we are unable to pay respect. If we are developing satipaìtthåna with a sincere inclination, we should be more eager to pay respect to those who deserve respect since this is a means to have less defilements. ------- Nina. #126661 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Alberto), > From: han tun >Han: >Yes, we can say the text is referring to satipa.t.thaana which has led to the path consciousness of the anaagaami here. And I will be grateful if I can know the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. If the text reference is not easily available, that is alright, Sarah. .... S: I have very few texts in Hong Kong, but will let you know if I find anything. Alberto or Nina may have a reference. As I understand, adhicitta is perfected by the anagami with the eradicated of attachment to sensuous objects resulting in this degree of calm when such developed vipassana is of this degree. No more disturbance of any kind from any sense objects like now when there is clinging and aversion as soon as there are experiences through the sense doors. Thank you again for all your helpful reflections and research findings. Your presentations including the Pali are also very good. Metta Sarah ====== #126662 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah,  Please read my follow-up message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/126658 and let me know if you have any comments on my above message.  with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 9/23/12, sarah abbott wrote: S: I have very few texts in Hong Kong, but will let you know if I find anything. Alberto or Nina may have a reference. As I understand, adhicitta is perfected by the anagami with the eradicated of attachment to sensuous objects resulting in this degree of calm when such developed vipassana is of this degree. No more disturbance of any kind from any sense objects like now when there is clinging and aversion as soon as there are experiences through the sense doors. Thank you again for all your helpful reflections and research findings. Your presentations including the Pali are also very good. Metta Sarah ====== #126663 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > I will try to explain the above statement by you. Please correct me if I am wrong. > I consider the citta is adhi-citta when it is free from Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojana (higher fetters) and the Anusayas that correspond to the higher fetters. ... S: I understand all your good points. I think that when adhi-citta is referred to, it's in the context of sikkhaa, training and this is what I was referring to as well. From Nyantiloka's dictionary: sikkhaa, the 'training', which the Buddha's disciple has to undergo, is 3-fold: training in higher morality (adhisiila-sikkhaa) in higher mentality (adhicitta-sikkhaa) in higher wisdom (adhipa~n~naa-sikkhaa) This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (aasava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kaamaasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjaasava). .... S: As I understand, the adhisiila training is said to be fulfilled at stage of sotapanna, the adhicitta training at stage of anagami and adhipa~n~naa training at arahat. This doesn't mean the sotapanna or even the anagami have eradicated all higher fetters or anusayas, only some. For example, a sotapanna will no longer break the precepts, but this doesn't mean there is no longer any akusala siila through body and speech. The adhisiila sikkhaa refers to the purification of siila at this level. Sorry not to have a better reference. Metta Sarah ==== #126664 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah, S: As I understand, the adhisiila training is said to be fulfilled at stage of sotapanna, the adhicitta training at stage of anagami and adhipa~n~naa training at arahat. This doesn't mean the sotapanna or even the anagami have eradicated all higher fetters or anusayas, only some. For example, a sotapanna will no longer break the precepts, but this doesn't mean there is no longer any akusala siila through body and speech. The adhisiila sikkhaa refers to the purification of siila at this level. --------------- Han: I appreciate your above explanation. I accept it with deepest gratitude. Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han #126665 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:16 pm Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (8) (a) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (UNDERLYING TENDENCIES) [24] "Sukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m anusayo anuseti, dukkhaaya vedanaaya ki.m anusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya ki.m anusayo anusetii"ti? "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. [24] 25. "Lady, what underlying tendency underlies pleasant feeling? What underlying tendency underlies painful feeling? What underlying tendency underlies neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust underlies pleasant feeling (sukhaaya vedanaaya raga-anusayo anuseti). The underlying tendency to aversion underlies painful feeling (dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tigha-anusayo anuseti). The underlying tendency to ignorance underlies neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijja-anusayo anuseti)." [Note 473] [Note 473] MT: The three defilements are called anusaya, underlying tendencies, in the sense that they have not been abandoned in the mental continuum to which they belong and because they are capable of arising when a suitable cause presents itself. --------------------- [25] "Sabbaaya nu kho, ayye, sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sabbaaya sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, na sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, na sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. [25] 26. "Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust (raga-anusayo) underlie all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion (pa.tigha-anusayo) underlie all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance (avijja-anusayo) underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" “Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.†--------------------- [26] "Sukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pahaatabba.m, dukkhaaya vedanaaya ki.m pahaatabba.m, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya ki.m pahaatabba"nti? "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo pahaatabbo, dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo pahaatabbo, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo pahaatabbo"ti. [26] 27. "Lady, what should be abandoned in regard to pleasant feeling? What should be abandoned in regard to painful feeling? What should be abandoned in regard to neither-painful-norpleasant feeling?" "Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust should be abandoned in regard to pleasant feeling (sukhaaya vedanaaya raga-anusayo pahaatabbo). The underlying tendency to aversion should be abandoned in regard to painful feeling (dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tigha-anusayo pahaatabbo). The underlying tendency to ignorance should be abandoned in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijja-anusayo pahaatabbo)." --------------------- [27] "Sabbaaya nu kho, ayye, sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo pahaatabbo, sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo pahaatabbo, sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo pahaatabbo"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sabbaaya sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo pahaatabbo, na sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo pahaatabbo, na sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo pahaatabbo. Idhaavuso visaakha, bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Raaga.m tena pajahati, na tattha raagaanusayo anuseti. Idhaavuso visaakha, bhikkhu iti pa.tisa~ncikkhati 'kudaassu naamaaha.m tadaayatana.m upasampajja viharissaami yadariyaa etarahi aayatana.m upasampajja viharantii'ti? Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu piha.m upa.t.thaapayato uppajjati pihaappaccayaa domanassa.m. Pa.tigha.m tena pajahati, na tattha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti. Idhaavuso visaakha, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, pubbeva somanassadomanassaana.m attha"ngamaa, adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi.m catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Avijja.m tena pajahati, na tattha avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. [27] 28. "Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. "Here, friend Visakha, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. With that he abandons lust, and the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie that (Raaga.m tena pajahati, na tattha raagaanusayo anuseti). [Note 474] [Note 474] MA explains that the bhikkhu suppresses the tendency to lust and attains the first jhaana. Having made the tendency to lust well suppressed by the jhaana, he develops insight and eradicates the tendency to lust by the path of the non-returner. But because it has been suppressed by the jhaana, it is said "the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie that." "Here a bhikkhu considers thus: ‘When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?’ In one who thus generates a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. With that he abandons aversion, and the underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie that (Pa.tigha.m tena pajahati, na tattha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti). [Note 475] [Note 475] MA identifies "that base" (tadaayatana), as well as "the supreme liberations", with arahantship. The grief that arises because of that longing is elsewhere called "the grief based on renunciation" (MN 137.13). MA explains that one does not actually abandon the tendency to aversion by means of that grief; rather, spurred on by the longing for the supreme liberations, one takes up the practice with firm determination and eradicates the tendency to aversion by attaining the path of the non-returner. "Here, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither-painnor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. With that he abandons ignorance, and the underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie that (Avijja.m tena pajahati, na tattha avijjaanusayo anuseti)."[Note 476] [Note 476] MA: The bhikkhu suppresses the tendency to ignorance with the fourth jhaana, makes it well suppressed, and then eradicates the tendency to ignorance by attaining the path of arahantship. --------------- Han: I am interested in the underlying tendency to lust that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling; the underlying tendency to aversion that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling; and the underlying tendency to ignorance that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi stated that with regard to "the grief based on renunciation", in MN 137, MA explains that one does not actually abandon the tendency to aversion by means of that grief; rather, spurred on by the longing for the supreme liberations, one takes up the practice with firm determination and eradicates the tendency to aversion by attaining the path of the non-returner. So, I will look at that sutta and come back to you in my next post. To be continued. with metta, Han #126666 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:33 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Sarah and all, Thank you all for your replies on the triplets 8 and 9. One more thing, would it be right to conclude that eradication here is referring to dhammas other than roots, so not roots themselves? It's a bit confusing - Rhys Davids translates triplet 9 as: 9. States the moral roots of which are to be put away by vision; culture; by neither. So, it seems the emphasis here is on eradication of roots. And yet, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think any of the roots are actually eradicated by sotapatti magga ("vision" in her translation). Unless perhaps there are different sorts of moha for example, so with sotapatti magga, the kinds of moha that accompany wrong view and doubt are eradicated, but other kinds of moha (those that accompany other higher fetters) are not yet eradicated? > S: In other words, I'm suggesting that this might refer to the same dhammaa as in 8 iii minus all sobhana cittas which are hetukaa dhammaa. pt: So, I guess then the only point of triplet 9 is to draw attention to the fact that the fetters have roots? Best wishes pt #126667 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi all, It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" somehow? Thanks. Best wishes pt #126668 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sprlrt Dear Han, Sarah, Thanks Han, I've found your reminder on the ten fetters (sa.myojanaa) and the seven tendencies (anusayaa), and the order in which the four lokuttara maggas eradicate them very helpful. In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. Superiority which is found in tipitaka also in the classification of paramattha dhammas as paritta (kaamaavacara), mahaggata (ruupa and aruupaavacara) and appamaa.na (lokuttara); small, great and immeasurable realities. Alberto Han wrote: > > There are ten Sa.myojanas. > > Abandoned by Sotaapanna > (1) ditthisa.myojana > (2) vicikicchasa.myojana > (3) siilabbataparaamaa sasa.myojana > (4) issaasa.myojana > (5) macchariyasa.myojana > > Abandoned by Anaagaami > (6) kaamaraagasa.myojana > (7) pa.tighasa.myojana > > Abandoned by Arahant > (8) bhavaraagasa.myojana > (9) maanasa.myojana > (10) avijjaasa.myojana > > Sa.myojanas (6) to (10) are Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. .... > There are seven Anusayas. > > Abandoned by Sotaapanna > (1) di.t.thaanusaya > (2) vicikicchaanusaya > > Abandoned by Anaagaami > (3) kaamaraagaanusaya > (4) pa.tighaanusaya > > Abandoned by Arahant > (5) bhavaraagaanusaya > (6) maanaanusaya > (7) avijjaanusaya > > Anusayas (3) to (7) correspond to Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. ... #126669 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Alberto (and Sarah), Alberto: In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. --------------- Han: I like your above comments, and I have noted them with many thanks. with metta and respect, Han #126670 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: more Poland audio sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Amazingly, more Poland audio uploaded. It's been like a sick ward here in Hong Kong and this has given up some time. Also, this time we're making the first edit a "minimalist edit" and uploading in this format. Down the track we hope to do a more "perfectionist edit", but given the good quality of the recordings and discussions, this is quite good enough for now. Metta Sarah p.s Nina, had a nice beach outing with Jessica this morning - dhamma discussions and catching-up on Poland and other news. ===== #126671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: the sea of concepts no 8 nilovg Dear friends, The sea of concepts, no 8. Dreaming: When dreaming we remember what appeared and contacted the eyesense. We do not actually see visible object. We remember that this is a mountain, a river. We dream about stories. At this moment something appears and we do not dream. But we think of a story on account of what appeared, such as, it is this or that person, he is doing something. During our dream it is the same. We “see” because we remember. We do not understand the characteristic of what appears. There are images and stories because citta thinks. We are in the world of thinking about what appears and falls away very rapidly. There is nothing left, except the sign, the nimitta, of what appeared. This is a sign or mark so that we remember that there is a person or an animal. Even as in a dream. What appears hrough the eyes lasts only seventeen moments of citta. It arose already and fell away already. Only the sign or nimitta remains. ******* Nina #126672 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts and perception upasaka_howard Hi, pt - In a message dated 9/23/2012 7:53:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi all, It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" somehow? Thanks. Best wishes pt =============================== People DO remember "stories" of past lives. Key example: The Buddha did. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126673 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 sarahprocter... Hi Alex, > From: truth_aerator >>S:K.Sujin told Lukas about a guy in Bkk who has listened to her for >years, but regularly needs to go to a hospital for addiction >treatment. Forget if I mentioned that. Whatever way life goes, right >understanding always the most useful. >>=================================================== > >Is this purely physical addiction? Or is it mental addiction? >I hope he fully recovers soon. ... S: As I understood her at the time, she mentioned there were a couple of guys who had a drug addiction from birth and needed to regularly go on a de-tox in hospital with no radio, no anything. She stressed that they were very interested in the Dhamma and had listened for sometime. Later she referred to just one guy, so not sure if it was one or two or more. The point was just that we all have 'issues' and all need to seek medical/other assistance as called for. Just ordinary, daily life - conditioned dhammas that can be known anytime, anywhere. To think that because there's some understanding of the Dhamma one doesn't need to take care of one's health would be very unfortunate. Metta Sarah p.s Have you listened to any of the recordings, Alex? I'd be interested to hear your comments on any of it. ===== #126674 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt Expositor pg 461 <> KC: perplexity arise with delusion as a root condition. When perplexity is removed by sotapanna, the root condition of delusion that arise with perplexity is also removed. this is similiar to greed that arise with wrong views. All the other four greed root cittas that arise with wrong views are also eliminated by sotapanna. This is the meaning of having root-conditions removable by insight. KC #126675 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 ashkenn2k Dear Howard >This is as I see it, with the disclaimer that, interspersed, are also >many moments of atta-based craving and aversion. Even during periods of >what seem to be (and largely are) periods of wholesome activity and mentality, >our defilements do arise. (I see this not as a pessimistic view but as a >realistic one.) K: Yes you are right to say that in development there will be many interspersed may moments of akusala dhamma. I wish to explain to Phil that to think of a result or a desiring is not necessary all aksuala. The intention is important. Just like doing meditation is not wrong if the intention follows the teachings in developing meditation. Similar to the ten volition, intentions are important in determining whether it is kusala or akusala. Cheers KC #126676 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta ashkenn2k Dear Alberto We cannot said just compare the quality of vipassana and samantha (which are basis of insight) in that way. Vipassana and samatha are two methods that are described in the texts. There is comparison between the quality of concentration and understanding but not the two methods of insight and tranquility. Also other will claim the quality of samadhi is better for samantha method because the highest form of jhanas (nirodhi sampatti) could only attain by those who practise jhanas till neither perception and non-perception stage, and they also non-returners or Arahants. This nirodhi sampatti cannot be attained by dry insightors thanks KC >Dear Alberto (and Sarah), > >Alberto: In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. > >I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. > >--------------- > >Han: I like your above comments, and I have noted them with many thanks. > >with metta and respect, >Han #126677 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:33 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception kenhowardau Hi Pt, ----------- > Pt: It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? ------------ KH: Ultimately, there is no maths, and so, ultimately, no predispositions for maths. There can be concepts of those things, and they can be explained by other concepts – e.g., by genetic inheritance or by previous lifetimes as mathematicians – but not by conditionality. ---------------- > Pt: Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? < snip> ---------------- KH: Out of my league now, I look forward to reading answers to those questions. Ken H #126678 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 kenhowardau Hi Ken O, Phil and Howard, ---- <. . .> > KO: I wish to explain to Phil that to think of a result or a desiring is not necessary all aksuala. The intention is important. Just like doing meditation is not wrong if the intention follows the teachings in developing meditation. Similar to the ten volition, intentions are important in determining whether it is kusala or akusala. --- KH: Excuse my butting in, but I can't wait for Phil to ask. You say that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over dhammas). (!) How can that be? Ken H #126679 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 ashkenn2k Dear Ken H I leave it to your statement "You say that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over dhammas). (!) " This is not how I interpret the dhamma. Sorry, I do not wish to discuss this. Thank you KC #126680 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 truth_aerator Hello KenH, >KH: Excuse my butting in, but I can't wait for Phil to ask. You say >that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not >wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over >dhammas). (!) >======================== Does panna (or sati) cetasika control the kusala effects of it? With best wishes, Alex #126681 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------------ <. . .> > KO: This is not how I interpret the dhamma. Sorry, I do not wish to discuss this. Thank you ----------- KH: No need to apologise, Ken, I think the way we are discussing (without having a discussions) is working quite well. When someone gives an interpretation of the Dhamma and states that he does not wish to discuss it, other people can still state their objections to that interpretation. Further discussion is not essential; the two interpretations, and the differences between them, have at least been made clear. Ken H #126682 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----- <. . .> >> KH: You say that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over dhammas). (!) > A: Does panna (or sati) cetasika control the kusala effects of it? ----- KH: No, not according to my understanding. When there is a belief in control over dhammas (when here is a convention facsimile of vipassana) there is no panna or sati, and the effects are always akusala – rooted in ignorance. Ken H #126683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:41 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, Bhante Dhammadharo spoke about respectful behaviour of laypeople when they are in the company of monks and when they are listening to the Dhamma. We laypeople were traveling around all the time in the company of the group of foreign monks who had come from Thailand and during such a journey one may forget to be respectful to monks at all times. One may forget to let them always go ahead and not to speak casually to them in the same way as one speaks to friends. Bhante Dhammadharo reminded us not to interrupt monks when they were speaking. I found this reminder most helpful. If someone else does not remind us of the fact that we are interrupting others we may never realize this. Such a reminder can prompt us to find out what kind of citta motivates us to interrupt others. Often we are so attached to our point of view we want to bring up in the conversation that we cannot wait until someone else has finished speaking. We become impatient and then there is aversion. When we see the value of respecting the other person instead of finding only ourselves important, there are conditions for refraining from interrupting someone else; instead we can wait with kusala citta, with mettå and patience, until he has finished speaking. Jonothan, the Australian layman who attended to the monks during this journey, remarked to me that one should not only refrain from interrupting when monks are speaking to us, but also when friends speak to us. Why should we be impolite to friends? This made me see all the more the value of restraint from interrupting, no matter with whom one is. When we do not interrupt others we are more able to listen to them and we shall understand them more. We shall understand the motives that make them speak and we shall understand their problems. We all have weak points and we may not notice them. When someone tells us, for example, that we are interrupting others, it reminds us to consider more our different cittas, whereas before, we may have been forgetful at such moments. All aspects of the Dhamma can help us to develop right understanding in daily life. When one develops satipatthåna one should not neglect other ways of kusala. When someone tells us what is wrong with us he renders us a service. He finds something for us that is as hard to find as a hidden treasure. We read in the “Dhammapada” (vs. 76): “Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasures, points out faults and reproves, let one associate with such a wise person; it will be better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one.” We can say that such a person actually hands us a treasure. The good friend in Dhamma not only helps us to develop satipatthåna, he also points out our faults to us. ----------- Nina #126684 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > Ann: > >Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. > > ... > > S: Yes, an important point. If there's any trying to be a good person, wanting to have metta, panna or anything else....it's all wrong again, all clinging to self once more. > ============= > > JJ: Is this collateral damages? When one tries to eradicate kilasa with self, one kilasa's gone but another comes. ... S: So just more kilesa (defilements) accumulated, nothing good at all. ... > > Understanding now - the middle path. > > ====== > > JJ: Understanding dhammas is the only clear cut with panna along the way. .... S: Yes, otherwise there is always the taking for kusala what is actually akusala. Thank you again for all your very helpful assistance with the arrangements for the discussions in Poland and for your keen participation at all of these. Much appreciated. We were impressed by Dream's interest as well. Hope your wife has a chance to listen to some of the audio with you. Metta Sarah ===== #126685 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:54 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (& Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >H: Light is also ruupa. The word light itself is pa~n~natti. , > > > > Sound hurt ears when decible is high. But sound is not pathavii or earth-element > >P: Thank you for the clear explanation. ... S: Are you sure sound can hurt? At the moment of hearing sound, whatever sound it is, the feeling is neutral and there is no bodily feeling at all. The other cittas is that ear-door process also experience that same sound rupa, no painful bodily experience at all, though there may be dosa arising in the javana process. Even though it seems that it is the sound which hurts, in fact there are other bodily experiences through body-sense when tangible object, such as hardness, is experienced. This will either be experienced with painful or pleasurable bodily feeling. Cittas are so very brief - it seems that visible object/light or sound are experienced for a long time. In fact, just very brief moments of vipaka cittas experiencing visible object, sound or tangible object, followed by many mind-door processes, thinking about what was experienced through the senses. Metta Sarah ===== #126686 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:46 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception sprlrt Hi pt, Alex, Howard, > It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, > such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on > death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some > are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? I think that what we refer to as one's predispositions etc. are due to past conditions like kamma. > Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. > I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in > particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my > head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? I think it's sankhara khandha (formations) that accumulates, not sa~n~na khandha. > And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not > "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand > "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that > marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. Neither do I, but I do remember the simile of the crow that mistakes a scarecrow for a person and gets scared (it's in visuddhimagga as well); sa~n~naa vipallaasa, distorsions, like atta-sa~n~naa, niccasa~n~naa, and sukhasa~n~naa, memory of self, of lastingness and of pleasantness. > Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's > arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other > cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" > somehow? Thanks. Sa~n~na arises with all cittas, kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaaka (resultants, like bhavanga), and kiriya (functional). I think 'neutral' refers to vedana khandha. Alberto #126687 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sprlrt Dear Ken O, I personally have no doubts that stating the superiority of vipassana over samatha is according to the Buddha's teaching, samatha alone can't penetrate the four noble truths, while vipassana alone can. I also think that there is much misunderstanding about this two words. I also think that samatha requires much more accumulated kusala to show up as upacaara or appana (samma) samaadhi, while (samma) samaadhi in vipassana is only momentary, unexpected; and I don't see how sitting wanting hard and expecting to have kusala can actually enhance kusala. Alberto > We cannot said just compare the quality of vipassana and samantha > (which are basis of insight) in that way. Vipassana and samatha are > two methods that are described in the texts. There is comparison > between the quality of concentration and understanding but not the > two methods of insight and tranquility. > > Also other will claim the quality of samadhi is better for samantha > method because the highest form of jhanas (nirodhi sampatti) could > only attain by those who practise jhanas till neither perception and > non-perception stage, and they also non-returners or Arahants. This > nirodhi sampatti cannot be attained by dry insightors #126688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Poland 2, the real comfort. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 23-sep-2012, om 15:03 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: It's been like a sick ward here in Hong Kong ------ N: Yes, like here too. Thank you for uploading. I highlight some points. Poland 2. We eat and sleep and we have attachment. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object and attachment, not knowing anything. Everyone has to die, sooner or later, with ignorance or with some understanding. Understanding, be it little or much, is the right understanding of whatever appears in one’s life. One should not just live without any understanding. If someone studies the teachings which talk about the truth of every moment and everything, one learns to know and understand. Then there are no expectations of what you want to lessen (of the defilements), just understand. For example, there is seeing now, should we not understand seeing? There is thinking now, should we not understand thinking? Visible object appears, do we know enough about it? Or do we not know yet what appears as it is? Whenever pa~n~naa, right understanding arises, painful feeling, agitation, worry, unpleasant realities can be known as not self, as very temporary. This can cure more than any words. Words can give comfort, but actually, they do not, because it is not the truth. When one understands the truth, one knows that life is conditioned and that it changes. We do not know what the next moment will be. Let it come with right understanding and you will see that everything keeps on changing. Q. Is it good to learn about conditions and realities? Sujin: Yes. It helps to really understand, otherwise there will be pain, sorrow and one wonders why life is like this. Seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, no matter where, when and for whom. ********* N: I found especially helpful that words are not real comfort, but, understanding the truth of realities is. ------ Nina. #126689 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:29 pm Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (8) (b) hantun1 Dear Friends, In my last post, I had mentioned that I am interested in the underlying tendency to lust that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling; the underlying tendency to aversion that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling; and the underlying tendency to ignorance that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. And as Bhikkhu Bodhi had made reference to MN 137, I am now looking at that sutta. -------------------- MN 137 Sa.laayatanavibhanga Sutta is the Exposition of the Sixfold Base. The Buddha expounds the six internal and external sense bases and other related topics. I do not find much about latent tendencies, but I find some useful information about (i) six kinds of joy based on the household life (gehasita somanassa), (ii) six kinds of joy based on renunciation (nekkhammasita somanassa), (iii) six kinds of grief based on the household life (gehasita domanassa), (iv) six kinds of grief based on renunciation (nekkhammasita domanassa), (v) six kinds of equanimity based on the household life (gehasita upekkhaa), (vi) six kinds of equanimity based on renunciation (nekkhammasita upekkhaa). They are like the three pairs of vedanaa that I find in MN 10 Satipa.t.thaana Sutta: worldly pleasant feeling (saamisa sukha vedanaa), unworldly pleasant feeling (niraamisa sukha vedanaa), etc. However, one interesting feature that I find is the following passage in MN 44.28 as well as in MN 137.13. ---------- "kudaassu naamaaha.m tadaayatana.m upasampajja viharissaami yadariyaa etarahi aayatana.m upasampajja viharantii"ti? Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu piha.m upa.t.thaapayato uppajjati pihaappaccayaa domanassa.m. "When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?" In one who generates thus a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. ---------- Han: This is the kind of grief (domanassa) that arises in a monk who wanted to become an Arahant, and who tried very hard to achieve it, but still could not attain it. For me, I cannot aim for Arahantship. But if I had wanted to become a Sotaapanna in this very life, and if I tried very hard for that, and yet if I could not attain it, and if I cried for that failure, then my tears would be an indication of grief based on longing for liberation as condition (vimokkhesu pihaappaccayaa domanassa). On more simple terms, if a young man is crying with grief because his parents do not allow him to become a bhikkhu, or if a young woman is crying with grief because her parents do not allow her to become a nun, this kind of grief based on renunciation (nekkhammasita domanassa) need not be abandoned. To be continued. with metta, Han #126690 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:45 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (18) (the luminous citta) philofillet Dear Group Pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "In the Dhammasanganani, the citta is called 'pure' or 'luminous' (pandara), and according to the Atthasaalini this refers to the life-continuum,bhavanga citta. The Atthasaalini (The Expositor, Book U, Part IV, Ch. II, 140) states, "Mind also is said to be 'clear' in the sense of 'exceedingly pure' with reference to the bhavanga-citta." The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure; he doesn not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited. He has no loving kindness or compassions; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see , hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should be known that whenever the citta that arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is bound to be involved in it and hence it is not pure. Many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasasnt, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant." (56) (end of passage) ph: needless to say pop Dhamma books latch on to this "luminous mind" - so attractive, who wouldn't want to have it? But we have Abhidhamma and commentary to keep us from error on this point. phil p.s thanks for your reply to several posts, Sarah. #126691 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah Thank you for your additional explanation. I also learn a lot from you in Poland and in DSG. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126692 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:17 pm Subject: "Why and how?" - no understanding of any reality. sarahprocter... Dear Friends, More audio uploaded - a chat in the square of Olszytn followed by an afternoon discussion back in our hotel conference room on 11th Sept. === Here's a discussion extract I found interesting from the afternoon discussion because of it being such a good example of how K.Sujin brings the Abhidhamma back to this very moment, no matter the question. Dream, Jagkrit's daughter, had been studying from Abhidhamma in Daily Life in preparation for the discussions and I encouraged her to ask any questions. **** D: I have another question about patisandhi citta. From what I read there are 8 patisandhi cittas such as sasankharika, asankharika. People are born, some are disabled, they can't hear, another kind are the kind that have panna. And starting from no panna, how can they step up to have more panna and I'm confused about vipaka cittas. If they must have good vipaka to have more panna but how can it start if you don't really have good vipaka from the very beginning? ***** [S: At this point, it was on the tip of my tongue to come in with a technical explanation about roots, vipaka cittas, accumulated panna and so on, but K.Sujin, with her usual skills, brings the question right back to this very moment] **** KS: Can you experience those cittas? (pause) KS: What can you know now? Can you know seeing? Understand seeing as just a reality which sees, not that which hears. Otherwise, if there is no understanding of reality right now, it's only thinking, speculation, about other moments. 'Why and how?', but no understanding of any reality. It's still you who thinks about this. If one cannot understand this moment, one cannot understand other moments in the past and the future. For example, you said 'vipaka', right? Is there vipaka now? How come to have vipaka now if no birth at all? See? What was born - you or what? D: Citta? KS: Reality, right? But there are so many realities, so we learn to know what type, what kind of that which was born and what are the conditions for the arising of that citta. D: So you're saying it doesn't matter - anything else, just stay with the reality is good enough? KS: I think we talk about many things but do we really know what we are talking about? Like we talk about the wisdom of the enlightened one. How can we know? How great wisdom is that? See. But if we begin to understand reality from hearing, considering more and more of the words of the Teachings, we know about the greatness of the wisdom of the Buddha. Otherwise it's only thinking about 'Oh, the highest one, the Greatest one', but why does one say so when one doesn't know anything at all about his words? ***** S:There are many similar discussions...always back to the reality, the understanding now, no matter what is read or heard. This was the message for us all. Metta Sarah ===== #126693 From: Ken O Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta ashkenn2k Dear Alberto In the text, there was never a comparision of vipassana bhavana and samatha bhavana. Abhidhamma texts, commentaries and Visud pointed to two bhavanas and did not compare one over the other. I have yet met a text that say vipassana is superior to samatha bhavana. Also there are many examples of samantha bhavana in the text especially Visud and in Satipatthana. Whether how one believe in interpreting the text, is up to the individual. I have no doubt whether it is vipassana or samatha bhavana, as long as it leads to Nibbana as describe in the texts, they are wise ways to follow, and not just because it is more superior. To be a Buddha, the person must have mastery over the jhanas in order to investigate the paramis. Is that more superior? Thanks KC #126694 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:31 am Subject: Ajivika view truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, >A: Does panna (or sati) cetasika control the kusala effects of it? >KH: No, not according to my understanding. >>>>============== So what is the point in having panna if it doesn't control its kusala effects? Are you teaching Acausality? I was reading Jataka stories today and they mentioned such teaching, it is called Ajivaka. We can't and shouldn't do anything... Good deeds are waste of time... We are all fated (read: conditions) to wander in Samsara until certain time elapses... With best wishes, Alex #126695 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:43 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---- <. . .> > A: So what is the point in having panna if it doesn't control its kusala effects? > > Are you teaching Acausality? > > I was reading Jataka stories today and they mentioned such teaching, it is called Ajivaka. We can't and shouldn't do anything... Good deeds are waste of time... We are all fated (read: conditions) to wander in Samsara until certain time elapses... ---- KH: I'm sorry Alex, I don't follow you. Who or what are the "we all" that are "fated to wander in samsara"? Are you still promoting Thanissaro's heterodoxy in the hope of gaining ordination at Wat Metta? If you are not, then why can't you admit that the "we all" refers to momentary, conditioned dhammas, and not to a permanent self that can "do" or "not do" things? Ken H #126696 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:18 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view truth_aerator Hi KenH, >A: So what is the point in having panna if it doesn't control its >kusala effects? > > > > Are you teaching Acausality? > ---- > KH: I'm sorry Alex, I don't follow you. Who or what are the "we >all" that are "fated to wander in samsara"? >>>>>>>>>>>>> What you call momentary, conditioned dhammas. Effort is part of the path. Again, are you claiming that panna is powerless to condition its effects? Are you saying that effort is fruitless? Then it seems to be like Ajivika teaching. With best wishes, Alex #126697 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:03 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view philofillet Hi Ken Surely you don't deny the efficacy of kusala? Pannna when it arises and the other kusala cetasikas it arises with (including kusala energy/effort, the cetasika virya) condition the arising of more kusala. And one of those kusala factors is khanti/patience, which if I remember correctly is the cetasika virya. We understand how gradual this process is, but correct understanding moves us (and fair enough to say "us" as shorthand to refer to dhammas) in the right direction, towards liberation. Poor TB - he is an advocate of deepening entanglement in the self, deeper and deeper into samsara he leads his unwitting vuctims, through no ill intent, of course, just the greed and ignorance "we" are all subject to in varying degrees, due to conditions. Some of us have come to understand that only panna and orger kusala factors including virya and the **alobha** that must accompany all kusala can lead out. "Effort" devoid of understanding and the other co-arisen kusala factors including alobha (which must arise with all kusala) leads in the wrong direction, deeper into samsara. Pretty basic. But undwrstanding and patience don't arise when we want (greed) them to. That's the catch. Phil #126698 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:02 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (18) (the luminous citta) philofillet Dear group. I missed a footnote when I posted this section. I will post again, with the footnote below. > "In the Dhammasanganani, the citta is called 'pure' or 'luminous' (pandara), and according to the Atthasaalini this refers to the life-continuum,bhavanga citta. The Atthasaalini (The Expositor, Book U, Part IV, Ch. II, 140) states, "Mind also is said to be 'clear' in the sense of 'exceedingly pure' with reference to the bhavanga-citta." The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure; he doesn not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited. He has no loving kindness or compassions; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see , hear, experience tangible object or think. > However, it should be known that whenever the citta that arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is bound to be involved in it and hence it is not pure. Many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasasnt, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant." (footnote 6) (56) > Footnote: In the texts, different aspects of citta have been given. In some texts each citta is called 'pure' or 'pandarama.' We read in the commentary to the Path of Discrimination, the Saddhammapakaasini, regarding the Treatise on Breathing, in section 4, "What are the Thirty-Two Kinds of Knowledge in Mindful Workers, "that each citta, even akusala citta, can be called 'pandaram.' THe characteristic of citta is experiencing an object, and that it is not defiled by upakilesas (accompanying akusala cetasikas), hence citta is by nature (sabhava) pure. When it is accompanied by upakilesas, which defile it, it is still called 'panaram' (pure.) (end of footnote) Phil #126699 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:29 pm Subject: Re: Ajivika view kenhowardau Hi Phil and Alex, ---- > Ph: Surely you don't deny the efficacy of kusala? ---- KH: This discussion began when I questioned Ken O's assertion that formal meditation was `not wrong if there was an intention to follow the teaching.' Alex joined in and suggested that panna could make wrong practice right. My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. My reply was in turn been construed as somehow denying the efficacy of kusala. I don't know how that happened (unless Alex was being purposely obstreperous). ---------- > Ph: Pannna when it arises and the other kusala cetasikas it arises with (including kusala energy/effort, the cetasika virya) condition the arising of more kusala. ---------- KH: Yes, although that's not a good thing in itself. The good thing is that panna destroys akusala – including the cause of dukkha – and therefore leads to the non-arising of all conditioned dhammas. --------------- > Ph: And one of those kusala factors is khanti/patience, which if I remember correctly is the cetasika virya. We understand how gradual this process is, but correct understanding moves us (and fair enough to say "us" as shorthand to refer to dhammas) in the right direction, towards liberation. --------------- KH: I agree with what you are saying, but – even though shorthands are allowable - I avoid talking about anything moving in a direction. The Dhamma is for right understanding here and now. Certainly, that will entail a gradual increase in right understanding - and that can be called a movement of sorts - but, as we both agree, there is nothing that actually moves towards liberation. ------------------------- > PH: Poor TB - he is an advocate of deepening entanglement in the self, deeper and deeper into samsara he leads his unwitting victims, through no ill intent, of course, ------------------------- KH: I agree there is no point in attributing dosa, or other dhammas, to a person (a concept). Ultimately none of us has any control over the dhammas that arise, kusala or akusala. --------------- Ph: <. . .> But understanding and patience don't arise when we want (greed) them to. That's the catch. --------------- KH: Which brings us back to the beginning of this discussion: when there is belief in a self that could benefit from right understanding (and would therefore quite logically want to have it) there cannot be right understanding. Ken H #126700 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:03 pm Subject: Re: Ajivika view philofillet Hi Ken H Ok, I see the original context, thanks. As for Alex, he surely isn't stupid so I don't know why he continupusly fails to register that no one woyld every deny the value of effort and that it arises, and arises often for many of us. But he will appatently continue to ascribe hopeless fatalism to others. I suppose that is what is called a "straw man" in these debates. When will there be conditions for the end of it (including my obnoxious participation)? No one can say, but that isn't fatalistic, kusala develops, we just can't control its development. over and out, again! phil #126701 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:12 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, We may not find someone who tells us the truth and the cause may be our unwillingness to listen. We may always talk back and find excuses for what we are doing. Bhante Dhammadharo spoke several times about the “Anumåna Sutta” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 15). In this sutta it is said that there are sixteen qualities which make a monk “difficult to speak to”, sixteen reasons why someone else does not want to point out to that monk his weak points. The monks have to reflect on this sutta twice or three times daily, but also laypeople can benefit from this sutta. We should remember that the purpose of the suttas is not just reading, they must be applied in daily life. We read that Mahå Moggallåna, while he was staying in Sumsumåragira, in Bhesakalå Grove in the deerpark, spoke to the monks about the qualities which make a monk difficult to speak to: “.... Herein, your reverences, a monk comes to be of evil desires and in the thrall of evil desires. Whatever monk, your reverences, comes to be of evil desires and in the thrall of evil desires, this is a quality that makes him difficult to speak to. And again, your reverences, a monk exalts himself and disparages others... a monk comes to be wrathful, overpowered by wrath.... a monk comes to be wrathful and because of his wrath is a faultfinder.... a monk comes to be wrathful and because of his wrath is one who takes offence.... a monk comes to be wrathful and because of his wrath utters words bordering on wrath.... a monk, reproved, blurts out reproof against the reprover.... a monk, reproved, disparages the reprover for the reproof.... a monk, reproved, rounds on the reprover for the reproof... a monk, reproved, shelves the question by (asking) the reprover another, answers off the point, and evinces temper and ill- will and sulkiness... a monk, reproved, does not succeed in explaining his movements to the reprover.... a monk comes to be harsh, spiteful... a monk comes to be envious, grudging... a monk comes to be treacherous, deceitful... a monk comes to be stubborn, proud... And again, your reverences, a monk comes to seize the temporal, grasping it tightly, not letting go of it easily, this too is a quality that makes him difficult to speak to. These, your reverences, are called the qualities which make it difficult to speak to a monk.” The sutta speaks of many different degrees of wrath. Do we know the different degrees of our aversion when we are being reproved? We may “round on the reprover”, telling him that he makes the same mistakes. Don’t we always try to find good reasons why we are behaving the way we do? Don’t we often use the word “but” with this intention? We may keep silent when we are reproved, but with aversion; we may speak words bordering on wrath or we may blurt out words full of wrath. There are many intensities of dosa. We read that the monk who is reproved is stubborn and proud. Do we recognize such qualities in ourselves? Do we really want to be corrected by someone else? This sutta reminds us to find out whether the citta is kusala citta or akusala citta in such a situation. It may be worth while to listen to the person who gives us advice. When someone else tells us something that is true it is hard to admit that it is true. We read at the end of the sutta that the monk should get rid of all these evil states when he finds that he has not yet eradicated them. Through the development of right understanding we come to know the different kinds of defilements that arise. It is impossible to eradicate them so long as they are still taken for “my akusala”. Thus, first the wrong view of self has to be eradicated through awareness of all kinds of nåma and rúpa which appear now through the six doorways. ---------- Nina. #126702 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:24 pm Subject: Tranquility and Insight hantun1 Dear Friends, AN 4.94 Tatiyasamaadhisutta.m: Tranquility and Insight Translation by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Source: An Anthology of Suttas from A"nguttara Nikaaya. 94. "Cattaarome, bhikkhave, puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi.m. Katame cattaaro? These four kinds of persons, O monks, are found existing in the world. What four? --------------- (i) Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (ii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa. (iii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na ceva laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na ca laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (iv) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (i) Here, monks, a certain person gains internal tranquility of mind, but does not gain the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] (ii) Another person gains the higher wisdom of insight into things, but does not gain internal tranquility of mind. (iii) Another person gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things. (iv) And another person gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] AA explains internal tranquility (ajjhatta.m cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhaana), and the higher wisdom of insight into things (adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaanaa) as the insight knowledge discerning formations (sa"nkhaara-pariggaahaka-vipassanaa-~naa.na). The latter is called "higher wisdom" and it is insight into the "things" comprised by the five aggregates. --------------- [1] "Tatra , bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, tena, bhikkhave, puggalena yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya so upasa"nkamitvaa evamassa vacaniiyo 'katha.m nu kho, aavuso, sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa' ti? Tassa so yathaadi.t.tha.m yathaavidita.m byaakaroti 'eva.m kho, aavuso, sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa'ti. So aparena samayena laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. [1] Therein, monks, the person who gains internal tranquility of mind but not the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa) should approach one who gains the higher wisdom and inquire of him: "How, friend, should formations be seen? How should formations be explored? How should constructions be discerned with insight?" [Note 47] The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "Formations should be seen in such a way; they should be explored in such a way; they should be discerned with insight in such a way." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa). [Note 47] "Formations" (sa"nkhaaraa) are the conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates: bodily form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. --------------- [2] "Tatra, bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, tena, bhikkhave, puggalena yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa so upasa"nkamitvaa evamassa vacaniiyo 'katha.m nu kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m? Katha.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m ? Katha.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m? Katha.m citta.m samaadahaatabba'nti? Tassa so yathaadi.t.tha.m yathaavidita.m byaakaroti 'eva.m kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m, eva.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m, eva.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m, eva.m citta.m samaadahaatabba'nti. So aparena samaye laabhii ceva hoti adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya laabhii ca ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa. [2] Therein, monks, the person who gains the higher wisdom of insight into things but not internal tranquility of mind (laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa, na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa) should approach one who gains internal tranquility and inquire of him: “How, friend, should the mind be steadied? How should the mind be composed? How should the mind be unified? How should the mind be concentrated?†The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: “The mind should be steadied in such a way, composed in such a way, united in such a way, concentrated in such a way.†At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa, laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa). --------------- [3] "Tatra, bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo na ceva laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na ca laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, tena, bhikkhave, puggalena yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ceva ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya so upasa"nkamitvaa evamassa vacaniiyo 'katha.m nu kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m? Katha.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m? Katha.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m? Katha.m citta.m samaadahaatabba.m? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa'ti? Tassa so yathaadi.t.tha.m yathaavidita.m byaakaroti 'eva.m kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m, eva.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m, eva.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m, eva.m citta.m samaadahaatabba.m, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa'ti. So aparena samayena laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. [3] Therein, monks, the person who gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things (na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa) should approach one who gains both and inquire of him: "How, friend, should the mind be steadied? ... How, friend, should formations be seen? ..." The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "The mind should be steadied in such a way ... Formations should be seen in such a way ..." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa). ---------------- [4] "Tatra, bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya , tena, bhikkhave, puggalena tesu ceva kusalesu dhammesu pati.t.thaaya uttari aasavaana.m khayaaya yogo kara.niiyo. Ime kho, bhikkhave, cattaaro puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi"nti. [4] Therein, monks, the person who gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things should establish himself in just these wholesome states and make a further effort for the destruction of the taints. --------------- Han: At the end of the day, the goal of all practitioners should be to gain both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa). with metta, Han #126703 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sprlrt Dear Ken O, Well, I suppose that the term 'superior', usually associated with conceit, wasn't the best word to choose when comparing samatha and vipassana, two terms which both refer to kusala dhammas. Alberto #126704 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Ajivika view philofillet Hi again > > As for Alex, he surely isn't stupid so I don't know why he continupusly fails to register that no one woyld every deny the value of effort and that it arises, and arises often for many of us. To clarify, virya arises with nearly every citta. I meant kusala virya, which is obviously much rarer. Often for some (few? very few? who knows?) of us, those of very wholesome accumulations... phil #126705 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:07 pm Subject: Lukas - Patthaana: Object condition sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Alberto & all, Just clearing out some papers I took to Poland and came across the translation of Patthaana:Object condition which you raised. I think it's easy to follow, especially keeping in mind Ajahn's comments on dhatus. Let me give my understanding and you can let me know what you think: ***** Object Condition (aaramma.napaccayoti) i) Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition (ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: When seeing consciousness and accompanying mental factors see visible object, the visible object is object condition, i.e. experienced by that citta and those cetasikas. The same applies to the other sense objects ii) - v) [The first five kinds of vi~n~naana dhaatu are referred to here]. vi) Visible object-base, sound-base, odour-base, taste-base, tangible object-base is related to mind-element and its associated states by object condition. (Ruupaayatana.m saddaayatana.m gandhaayatana.m rasaayatana.m pho.t.thabbaayatana.m manodhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: When the mano dhaatu cittas and accompanying mental factors experience the sense objects, they are object condition for those cittas. Remember, these refer to the three cittas which are the only ones to arise at heart-base and just experience objects through the sense doors, i.e pancadvaravajjana citta (sense-door adverting consciousness) and the two kinds of sampaticchana citta (receiving consciousness). So now we have six kinds of vi~n~naana dhaatu so far referred to. vii) All states are related to mind-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (Sabbe dhammaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: When any of the other kinds of citta and accompanying mental factors experience any object - whether this be a sense object, a reality only experienced through the mind-door or a concept, that object is object condition for the citta experiencing it. The mano vi~n~naana dhatu refer to all cittas other than those referred to in i) to vi), so now we have the seven kinds of vi~n~naana dhaatu. viii) Taking any state as object, these states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; those (former) states are related to those (latter) states by object condition. (Ya.m ya.m dhamma.m aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa, te te dhammaa tesa.m tesa.m dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: This is a conclusion to indicate that when any object is experienced, (remember, "anything!"), it is related to the citta and cetasikas which experience it by object condition. ***** S: I appreciated the way that Ajahn talked about dhatus, totally putting the book aside, and making sure everyone in the room understood the meaning of dhatu at this moment. Dhatu, dhamma - reality now! Seeing now if cakkhu vinnana dhatu, attachment now is dhamma dhatu - all dhatus, no atta to be found. Metta Sarah ====== #126706 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Phil & Nina, thanks to Nina and Htoo for adding good explanations to Phil's question on "inner" and "outer". --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > The vinnana(?) consciousness is internal but the accompanying > > cetasikas are external, something like that? There will be > > conditions for Sarah to recall the point, I think > ------- > N: Manwhile I could add something. I used to find this difficult too. > This is about the inner ayaatanas and the outer ayaatanas. > Citta has as function clearly to know an object, it is the leader in > knowing an object. The cetasikas which arise and accompany citta each > perform their own function, they are entirely different from citta. > This is made clear in the following quote also from SPD: > < The bhavanga-citta > which is vipåkacitta is not involved in outward objects and > hence akusala cetasikas do not accompany it. Here it is > obvious that the citta is luminous and pure. But also when > it is accompanied by defilements, the citta itself is different > from the defilements, its nature is pure, pandara. The > "Atthasåliní", in the same section, states: "Though immoral, > it is called 'clear' (pandaraÿ) because it issues [from > subconscious vital functions] just as a tributary of the Ganges > is like the Ganges and a tributary of the Godhåvarí is like the > Godhåvarí." Even when citta is accompanied by defilements, > it does not lose its natural purity, just as the water of a > tributary is like the water of the main river. Citta just clearly > knows an object. > .... S: yes, all cittas are pandara, clear. As we read in the Dhammasangani, there are many synonyms for citta: mano or maanasa (mind), hadaya (heart), pa.n.dara (pure), manaayatana (mind-base), manindriya (faculty of mind), vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), vi~n~naa.nakkhandha and manovi~n~naa.na dhaatu. All cittas are pa.n.dara, but I believe that pabhassara (luminous) is only used for vipaka cittas and kusala cittas, not akusala cittas. We discussed some of these synonyms in Poland. Citta as "innermost". In passing, K.Sujin mentioned that in some text(s) it refers to cetasikas inside citta, hence "innermost", but I don't remember seeing this. I wonder if you have, Nina? ... > Thus, citta is entirely different from cetasika although cetasikas > accompany it. I pondered over this passage many, many times and I > find it clarifies. ... S: Yes, I find it helpful as well. Citta just experiences the object. Metta Sarah ===== #126707 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Glad to slowly catch up with all your good extracts. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > For akusala there are latencies, for kusala, I have yet not find text that there is the equivalent like latenices to akusala. ... S: I think we just read about asaya (anusaya), whereby asaya refer to all tendencies, kusala and akusala. I've come across this term 'asayaanusaya' in the texts before, but forget where now. >I hope one day someone would translate Yamaka and Patthana and more importantly their commentaries as I have an instinct that there are important information in both the texts to complete the whole picture of how dhamma really connect with each other. ... S: it could have been in the Yamaka that I read about asaya anusaya when someone translated part or in the summaries. I agree it'll be helpful when it's translated. Metta Sarah ===== #126708 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Sea of concepts 5. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Htoo), A very good message....if there's not understanding now in daily life, however it unfolds, it's not real understanding: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ---- > N: As you agree, only the sotaapanna destroys the idea of self. But > we can begin now, at this very moment of seeing, hearing, like, > dislike. We can very, very gradually learn that these are dhammas, > conditioned dhammas and not under the control of a self. If there is > no beginning now, in our daily life, while doing chores in the house, > sometimes very dirty chores, we can never, never make it. A bad odour > is real, it has conditions to arise. It can be known as just a > dhamma. That is daily life. So important to understand daily life. > Otherwise we are lost. ... S: Yes, otherwise "lost" again and again. This is really the sacca ~naana, K.Sujin talks so much about, the really firm understanding that the 'right' object for understanding has to be the very reality appearing now, not the reality of choice. We talked a lot about upanissaya gocara, the accumulated understanding which clearly knows the right object (gocara or arammana) at this moment in order for araka gocara, all kinds of kusala, to arise as protection from akusala and leading to the development of satipatthana, unpanibhanda gocara. Yes, the study has to be now, no matter the difficult chores, the problems in life, the worldly conditions - just dhammas, just dhatus now to be known. Thanks for sharing all your helpful reflections even now at these difficult times. Such an inspiration for us all. Metta Sarah ===== #126709 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Ten Volition 2 - Unwholesome Acts 1 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Jagkrit & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Commentary to Right View <...> > 5. Greed is a root of the unwholesome, etc.: It is greedy, thus it is greed (lubbhati ti lobho); it offends against (it hates), thus it is hate (dussati ti doso); it deludes, thus it is delusion (muyhati ti moho). Among these, greed is itself unwholesome in the sense that it is blameworthy and has painful results; and it is a root of these unwholesome (deeds) beginning with killing living beings, for some in the sense that it is an associated originative cause, for some in the sense that it is a decisive support condition. Thus it is an unwholesome root. This too is said: "One who is lustful, friends, overwhelmed and with mind obsessed by lust, kills a living being" (A.3:71/i,216; text slightly different). The same method applies to the state of being unwholesome roots in the cases of hate and delusion.>> ... S; Even though there is dosa when killing, lobha can be a condition by natural decisive support condition. Jagkrit, this good passage reminded me of our discussions on embarrassment and some other topics when we agreed there cannot be maana (conceit) at moments of dosa, but still the manna can be a condition in the same way. For example, when I couldn't remember a name, embarrassment likely conditioned by maana. (When K.Sujin kept forgetting the names, no apparent embarrassment!!). I think it's the same when we are reminded often that the "Self is there". Self-view or atta ditthi conditions many thoughts even when there may not be ditthi actually arising. Metta Sarah p.s Thanks again, Ken O ======== #126710 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Tranquility and Insight sprlrt Dear Han, Thanks for posting this sutta; I think that vipassana and samatha can be compared to a car and its air conditioning system (an useful optional making a very long trip in a very hot weather much more pleasant). Alberto Han wrote: Dear Friends, AN 4.94 Tatiyasamaadhisutta.m: Tranquility and Insight Translation by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Source: An Anthology of Suttas from A"nguttara Nikaaya. 94. "Cattaarome, bhikkhave, puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi.m. Katame cattaaro? These four kinds of persons, O monks, are found existing in the world. What four? --------------- (i) Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (ii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa. (iii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na ceva laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na ca laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (iv) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (i) Here, monks, a certain person gains internal tranquility of mind, but does not gain the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] (ii) Another person gains the higher wisdom of insight into things, but does not gain internal tranquility of mind. (iii) Another person gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things. (iv) And another person gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] AA explains internal tranquility (ajjhatta.m cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhaana), and the higher wisdom of insight into things (adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaanaa) as the insight knowledge discerning formations (sa"nkhaara-pariggaahaka-vipassanaa-~naa.na). The latter is called "higher wisdom" and it is insight into the "things" comprised by the five aggregates. .... #126711 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Han, I'm now reading your installments more carefully and they are excellent, such as #126609. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > (THE ATTAINMENT OF CESSATION) <...> > [15] 16. "Lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" > > "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall attain (samaapajjissa'nti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am attaining (samaapajjaamii'ti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have attained (samaapanno'ti) the cessation of perception and feelin'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." <...> S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. And following: > [17] 18. "Lady, how does emergence from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" > > "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall emerge (vu.t.thahissa'nti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am emerging (vu.t.thahaamii'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have emerged (vu.t.thito'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." <..> S: Again, the previous development, the accumulation, the conditions lead in this way. Thank you again for all the detail - too much to re-quote. Anumodana Metta Sarah ======= #126712 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:46 pm Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (7) sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Alberto, Han & all, In Poland we discussed a lot about feelings and how all feelings are dukkha, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Vedana is a khandha (on its own) because of the great importance we attach to feelings, always looking for pleasant feeling. The following, quoted by Han is a very neat summary: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta > (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) > > (FEELING) <...> > [23] "Sukhaa panaayye, vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, > dukkhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, > adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa"ti? > > "Sukhaa kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaa .thitisukhaa vipari.naamadukkhaa; > dukkhaa vedanaa .thitidukkhaa vipari.naamasukhaa ; > adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.nasukhaa a~n~naa.nadukkhaa"ti. > > [23] 24. "Lady, what is pleasant and what is painful in regard to pleasant feeling? What is painful and what is pleasant in regard to painful feeling? What is pleasant and what is painful in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" > > "Friend Visakha, pleasant feeling is pleasant when it persists and painful when it changes (sukhaa vedanaa .thiti sukhaa, vipari.naama dukkhaa). > Painful feeling is painful when it persists and pleasant when it changes (dukkhaa vedanaa .thiti dukkhaa, vipari.naama sukhaa). > Neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge [of it] and painful when there is no knowledge [of it] (adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.na sukhaa, a~n~naa.na dukkhaa)." > > ---------------------- S: Excellent! Whatever vedana now - pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, it arises and falls away. All dukkha! Metta Sarah ===== #126713 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for reading my posts and offering your comments. And I accept your comments with deepest gratitude. But I find it a bit difficult in the following: S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. But in the case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and sammuti saccaa. with metta and respect, Han --- On Tue, 9/25/12, sarahprocterabbott wrote: Dear Han, I'm now reading your installments more carefully and they are excellent, such as #126609. #126714 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tranquility and Insight hantun1 Dear Alberto, Thank you very much for your kind words. I like your analogy. with metta and respect, Han --- On Tue, 9/25/12, sprlrt@... wrote: Dear Han, Thanks for posting this sutta; I think that vipassana and samatha can be compared to a car and its air conditioning system (an useful optional making a very long trip in a very hot weather much more pleasant). Alberto #126715 From: Ken O Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view ashkenn2k Dear Phil K: Understanding and patience do arise if we want them do. There is nothing wrong for someone to pursue the understanding of dhamma, to look into the texts. To say just because we want something is wrong, that is not in accordance to the text. Neither does one who wish to go to the temple to listen to the teachings is conditioned by a self. It does not mean just because we want something and we do it, is all arise from akusala. Understanding of dhamma is not a natural process, it is a process of repetitiveness, investigation and practising it. also it is not necessary to be motivated by panna in order to develop panna. There could be other causes like faith, energy, mindfulness, they are all could be factor to cause the arisen in panna. Even an object could cause the arisen of panna. thank you KC #126716 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil, and Alex) - In a message dated 9/25/2012 12:29:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. ============================== That reply seems wrong, Ken, or at least to call for some modification. Is not some wisdom requisite for right practice? When there is no right practice at all - the initial situation, of course - if pa~n~na were consequently unable to arise, then there would never be right practice, and thus there could not ever be awakening. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 25-sep-2012, om 10:42 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Citta as "innermost". In passing, K.Sujin mentioned that in some > text(s) it refers to cetasikas inside citta, hence "innermost", but > I don't remember seeing this. I wonder if you have, Nina? > ..... N: No. Perhaps some of the context is missing. Nina. #126718 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view sukinderpal Hi Ken and Phil, > K: Understanding and patience do arise if we want them do. There is > nothing wrong for someone to pursue the understanding of dhamma, to > look into the texts. > Are you saying that if I sit down to read Suttas panna will arise, and if I do this thinking that this will happen, it is equivalent to being able to make panna arise? Does this imply also then, that if I go out to watch a film and don't wish to think about Dhamma, that panna would not arise then? > To say just because we want something is wrong, that is not in > accordance to the text. Neither does one who wish to go to the temple > to listen to the teachings is conditioned by a self. > > It does not mean just because we want something and we do it, is all > arise from akusala. > Phil was I believe, referring to lobha and not kusala chanda. He was referring to lobha accompanying self view which thinks to make a connection between some conventional activity, such as opening a Sutta to read, going to a temple to hear the Dhamma, or sitting down to meditate, with the arising of panna. > Understanding of dhamma is not a natural process, it is a process of > repetitiveness, investigation and practising it. > You mean it does not happen without a cause? Of course it doesn't, however believing that some particular conventional activity is needed in order to make panna arise, this is not one of those causes, but is in fact a great hindrance. > also it is not necessary to be motivated by panna in order to develop > panna. There could be other causes like faith, energy, mindfulness, > they are all could be factor to cause the arisen in panna. Even an > object could cause the arisen of panna. > It is useless to wonder when it first happened, but clearly any panna that arises now must be because panna arose in the past must it not? How do you see faith, energy and mindfulness in isolation as possibly leading to panna? Sukin #126719 From: Kc Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view ashkenn2k Dear Sukin Up to your interpretation of how panna will arise and how it is cause to arise, just like you go listen to AS. Unless you have textual support that conventional action like listening to dhamma or concepts cannot be used in developing the path, I will continue to discuss with you. I am alright with discussion as long as you could show me the text. If not, that is all I have to say and the discussion will end here. Thank you KC #126720 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:22 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for joining in. ---- >> KH: My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. > H: That reply seems wrong, Ken, or at least to call for some modification. ---- KH: I'm not sure modification is the right word, but perhaps that reply might have called for "further explanation" in some circumstances. ---------- > H: Is not some wisdom requisite for right practice? ---------- KH: Yes, in Abhidhamma terminology "right practice" refers to a moment of path consciousness, (either pariyatti, patipati or pativeda) and, as such, it always contains a factor of right-understanding. That was how I meant it, and I didn't explain further to Alex because he must surely know, after all these years, that was how I meant it. -------------------- > H: When there is no right practice at all - the initial situation, of course - if pa~n~na were consequently unable to arise, then there would never be right practice, and thus there could not ever be awakening. --------------------- KH: That's a hypothetical situation, and I am not sure how to grasp it. I am sure, however, (from what I have been told and considered) how to grasp the present situation. It consists entirely of conditioned dhammas. Ken H #126721 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:30 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (9) Last Installment hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (COUNTERPARTS) [28] 466. "Sukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya dukkhaa vedanaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [28] 29. "Lady, what is the counterpart of pleasant feeling?" [Note 477] "Friend Visaakha, painful feeling is the counterpart of pleasant feeling." [Note 477] The word "counterpart" (pa.tibhaaga) is used to express the relationships of both opposition and supplementation. [Han: The above interpretation of (pa.tibhaaga) is very good. Because, some of the questions asked were for the opposite counterparts, and some were for supplementary counterparts. For example, questions on dukkha vedanaa and sukha vedanaa, avijjaa and vijjaa are looking for opposite counterparts; whereas, questions on adukkhamasukha vedanaa and avijjaa, vijjaa and vimuttu, and vimutti and Nibbaana are looking for supplementary counterparts.] --------------------- [29] "Dukkhaaya pannaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Dukkhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya sukhaa vedanaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [29] "What is the counterpart of painful feeling?" "Pleasant feeling is the counterpart of painful feeling." -------------------- [30] "Adukkhamasukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Adukkhamasukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya avijjaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [30] "What is the counterpart of neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Ignorance is the counterpart of neither-painful-nor pleasant feeling." [Note 478] [Note 478] Ignorance is its counterpart because neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is subtle and difficult to recognize. -------------------- [31] "Avijjaaya panaayye, ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Avijjaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vijjaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [31] "What is the counterpart of ignorance?" "True knowledge (vijjaa) is the counterpart of ignorance (avijjaa)." --------------------- [32] "Vijjaaya panaayye, ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Vijjaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vimutti pa.tibhaago"ti. [32] "What is the counterpart of true knowledge?" "Deliverance (vimutti) is the counterpart of true knowledge (vijjaa)." ------------------- [33] "Vimuttiyaa panaayye , ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Vimuttiyaa kho, aavuso visaakha, nibbaana.m pa.tibhaago"ti. [33] "What is the counterpart of deliverance?" "Nibbana is the counterpart of deliverance (vimutti)." ------------------- [34] "Nibbaanassa panaayye, ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Accayaasi, aavuso visaakha, pa~nha.m, naasakkhi pa~nhaana.m pariyanta.m gahetu.m. Nibbaanogadha~nhi, aavuso visaakha, brahmacariya.m, nibbaanaparaayana.m nibbaanapariyosaana.m. Aaka"nkhamaano ca tva.m, aavuso visaakha, bhagavanta.m upasa"nkamitvaa etamattha.m puccheyyaasi, yathaa ca te bhagavaa byaakaroti tathaa na.m dhaareyyaasii"ti. [34] "Lady, what is the counterpart of Nibbana?" "Friend Visaakha, you have pushed this line of questioning too far; you were not able to grasp the limit to questions. [Note 479] For the holy life, friend Visakha, merges in Nibbana, culminates in Nibbana, ends in Nibbana. If you wish, friend Visakha, go to the Blessed One and ask him about the meaning of this. As the Blessed One explains it to you, so you should remember it.†[Note 479] M.T: Nibbaana does not have an opposite counterpart, namely, conditioned states. But in the strict sense it has no supplementary counterpart, for how can there be anything to supplement Nibbaana, the unconditioned? -------------------------- (CONCLUSION) 467. Atha kho visaakho upaasako dhammadinnaaya bhikkhuniyaa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa dhammadinna.m bhikkhuni.m abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.na.m katvaa yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho visaakho upaasako yaavatako ahosi dhammadinnaaya bhikkhuniyaa saddhi.m kathaasallaapo ta.m sabba.m bhagavato aarocesi. 30. Then the lay follower Visaakha, having delighted and rejoiced in the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa's words, rose from his seat, and after paying homage to her, keeping her on his right, he went to the Blessed One. After paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and told the Blessed One his entire conversation with the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa. When he finished speaking, the Blessed One told him: Eva.m vutte, bhagavaa visaakha.m upaasaka.m etadavoca "pa.n.ditaa, visaakha, dhammadinnaa bhikkhunii, mahaapa~n~naa, visaakha, dhammadinnaa bhikkhunii. Ma.m cepi tva.m, visaakha, etamattha.m puccheyyaasi, ahampi ta.m evameva.m byaakareyya.m, yathaa ta.m dhammadinnaaya bhikkhuniyaa byaakata.m. Eso cevetassa attho. Eva~nca na.m dhaarehii"ti. Idamavoca bhagavaa. Attamano visaakho upaasako bhagavato bhaasita.m abhinandiiti. 31. "The bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa is wise, Visaakha, the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa has great wisdom. If you had asked me the meaning of this, I would have explained it to you in the same way that the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa has explained it. Such is its meaning, and so you should remember it." [Note 480] [Note 480] MA: By saying this, the Buddha makes this sutta Word of the Conqueror, stamped as it were with the seal of the Conqueror. [Han: This is very important. Because the Buddha has endorsed it, all the answers given by Therii Dhammadinnaa can be treated as the answers given by the Buddha himself.] That is what the Blessed One said. The lay follower Visaakha was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. -------------------- This is the End of my presentation of MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta with metta, Han #126722 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/25/2012 5:22:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for joining in. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: :-) Thanks for the warm greeting! ------------------------------------------------- ---- >> KH: My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. > H: That reply seems wrong, Ken, or at least to call for some modification. ---- KH: I'm not sure modification is the right word, but perhaps that reply might have called for "further explanation" in some circumstances. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I'd like a bit. --------------------------------------------------- ---------- > H: Is not some wisdom requisite for right practice? ---------- KH: Yes, in Abhidhamma terminology "right practice" refers to a moment of path consciousness, (either pariyatti, patipati or pativeda) and, as such, it always contains a factor of right-understanding. That was how I meant it, and I didn't explain further to Alex because he must surely know, after all these years, that was how I meant it. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: Ah, In see. I thought you meant merely arising of wholesome states, conducive to eventual path consciousness. --------------------------------------------------- -------------------- > H: When there is no right practice at all - the initial situation, of course - if pa~n~na were consequently unable to arise, then there would never be right practice, and thus there could not ever be awakening. --------------------- KH: That's a hypothetical situation, and I am not sure how to grasp it. I am sure, however, (from what I have been told and considered) how to grasp the present situation. It consists entirely of conditioned dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: I don't disagree with that. It doesn't seem to address my point, though. In any case, thanks, Ken! ---------------------------------------------------- Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:31 pm Subject: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah and friends, Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ------- Nina. #126724 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. hantun1 Dear Nina. I am deeply saddened to hear about your great loss. This must be very difficult for you. You are in my thoughts and my prayers. I still remember the time we at the hotel in Bangkok. Please accept my most heart-felt condolences. Han --- On Wed, 9/26/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: [dsg] Death. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2012, 12:31 PM Dear Sarah and friends, Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ------- Nina. #126725 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:46 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Nina, It's hard to hear. I've heard Lodewijk on recordings, and I always recalled you and him as a great Dhamma friends to me. Hope you are fine. Today i will have a seclusion day for Lodewijk. Is there anything I can do for you? Best wishes Lukas > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126726 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:23 pm Subject: Re: Death. ptaus1 Dear Nina, I'm sorry for your loss. I never had the chance to meet Lodewijk in person, but will always be grateful for his audio readings of the Perfections as well as his good questions to A.Sujin, especially about sati - often when I remember about sati, I remember Lodewijk. Always grateful for the good reminders. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126727 From: sprlrt@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Death sprlrt Dear Nina, I am sorry to hear about Lodewijk's death, your life-time companion you shared so much with, including the Dhamma. with metta, Alberto #126728 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Our thoughts are with you. It's true as you say below. We form strong bonds and grieve life after life after without end. Understanding is the only cure for our sickness. "No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." A new life, new experiences, for the dear one we remember as our beloved Lodewijk. There was so much pain towards the end of his life that perhaps it's for the best the end cam quickly for him. Lodewijk was a wonderful friend to those who were honoured to spend time with him. For those who didn't know him personally, he was also a wonderful support and guide to you during all the decades you've devoted yourself to to sharing the Dhamma with everyone. Please let us know if we can be of any assistance during this time in anyway, Nina. Metta and Sympathies Sarah (& Jonothan) >Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to >Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is >another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who >was dear to one is also another person. > > >She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person >who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ===== #126729 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Han, > From: han tun >S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. > >Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. But in the case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. .... S:Does the the pubba-kicca (preparation) consist of dhammas which are conditioned too? For example, when we "his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state.", is the text not just talking about the development of particular cittas and cetasikas? We read a lot about different conditions, such as natural decisive support condition, object condition, root condition and so on - aren't these developments and attainments occurring as a result of all the different conditions? Similarly, the cittas with lobha now, the determinations now, the little wisdom arising now, are also arising by conditions, not any "doer". ... >I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and sammuti saccaa. ... S: I agree that we need to use sammuti sacca in our daily life and we can talk about a "doer" and "actions" and so on. However, isn't the purpose of all such Teachings to help the development of understanding of paramattha dhammas as being the "all" in truth, the "all" as anatta dhammas? I know you prefer not to get side-tracked by discussions and debates, Han, so please feel free to continue with your excellent series and to ignore my comments. Metta Sarah ===== #126730 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:25 pm Subject: Re: Death. philofillet Dear Nina I'm so sorry for your loss, Nina. There is reassurance for me in knowing that you and Lodewijk shared the Dhamma for so many years. phil #126731 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sea of concepts 5. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (DSG site has been down, so I hope you received my condolences and note there). I find this quote of K.Sujin's helpful to reflect on at this time: > From: Nina van Gorkom >The Sea of concepts 5. > >How many lives have passed until now, or even how many moments have >passed from childhood until now that we are searching only for seeing >colour that appears just for a short moment and then falls away; or >only for hearing sound that appears just for a short moment and then >falls away. It is the same for smelling odour, tasting flavour and >experiencing tangible object, everything appears just for a short >moment and then falls away, there is nothing left. ... S: Always searching, trying to have a special visible object, sound, taste and so on. In fact, they are all the same - just conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away. Each visible object is the same as each other one in that it is seen by seeing consciousness (accompanied by neutral feeling and other factors), falling away instantly. After these experiences of sense objects, there is just a lot of thinking, proliferating, usually with no awareness or understanding at all. .... > >Before being born as this person was there a self? From the first day >of our life until adulthood, until now, we have the idea of self. In >our life there are different events, happy or unhappy, and we think >that when we depart from this world we shall regret it to leave the >things we had in this life. However, we can consider our life more >deeply. Although we shall depart from this life at the end of our >life, this is the same as in a previous life when we were not yet >born into this life. We did not have the things we have now and, >thus, no regret. Each life is like this, there is nothing left except >realities that arise and fall away according to conditions. Because >of ignorance there is atta-sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self, just >remembrance. ... S: Atta-sa~n~naa which leads to thinking of people and things all day. Whatever happens in life, whatever happens at this moment, actually there are just cittas, cetasikas and rupas - "there is nothing left except realities that arise and fall away according to conditions." Courage and understanding to accept the truth. Not easy at all. Metta Sarah ====== #126732 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Sense Bases 1 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Ken O gave a good quote - a reminder why there has to be the understanding of visible object and seeing now: > From: Ken O >Commentary to Satipatthana <...> >Yam tadubhayam paticcca uppajjati samyojanam= "The fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms)." He understands according to distinct function and characteristic the tenfold fetter that arises dependent on both eye and forms — the tenfold fetter of sense-desire, resentment, pride, speculative theory, doubt, belief in rites and ceremonies, the desire to go on existing, envy, avarice and ignorance. > >"How does this tenfold fettering arise?" asks one. > >The fetter of sensuality arises for him who by way of sensuous enjoyment takes delight in a pleasant sense-object become visible at the eye-door. For him who is annoyed or angry at the sight of an unpleasant object, the fetter of resentment arises, and the fetter of pride arises in him who thinks: No one but me is able to consider the object wisely. The fetter of speculative theory comes to be in him who takes material form to be permanent and everlasting. The fetter of doubt arises in him who thinks in this way: Is the material form a being or a being's? The fetter of the desire to go on >existing arises in him who wishes thus: To be sure, in a favorable state of existence this material form will become easy of access. The fetter of rites and ceremonies arises in him who undertakes to perform rites and ceremonies thinking: In the future it will be possible to obtain such an object as this by taking up the observance of rites and ceremonies. The fetter of envy arises in him who contemplates grudgingly: Should no others get this material form, it would be good, indeed. The fetter of avarice arises in one who stints for another the material form belonging to one. The fetter of ignorance arises (with all the previously mentioned fetters), with all sensuous passion and the like, by way of the relation of conascent nescience.>> ... S: We place so much importance on seeing and visible object. It seems that we see all the time. In reality, just a very brief moment of seeing, followed by so much attachment, so much thinking and so on. Metta Sarah ===== #126733 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I sincerely appreciate your comments. The only problem is I cannot reach that stage where there is no self, no doer, or no control, etc. Yes, it is indeed the purpose of all the Teachings. But it will take a long, long time for me to gain that purpose. No, no, I will not ignore your comments. How can I? I always look up to you. with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 9/26/12, sarah abbott wrote: From: sarah abbott Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2012, 3:43 PM Dear Han, > From: han tun >S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. > >Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. But in the case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. .... S:Does the the pubba-kicca (preparation)  consist of dhammas which are conditioned too? For example, when we "his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state.", is the text not just talking about the development of particular cittas and cetasikas? We read a lot about different conditions, such as natural decisive support condition, object condition, root condition and so on - aren't these developments and attainments occurring as a result of all the different conditions? Similarly, the cittas with lobha now, the determinations now, the little wisdom arising now,  are also arising by conditions, not any "doer". ... >I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and sammuti saccaa. ... S: I agree that we need to use sammuti sacca in our daily life and we can talk about a "doer" and "actions" and so on. However, isn't the purpose of all such Teachings to help the development of understanding of paramattha dhammas as being the "all" in truth, the "all" as anatta dhammas? I know you prefer not to get side-tracked by discussions and debates, Han, so please feel free to continue with your excellent series and to ignore my comments. Metta Sarah ===== #126734 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: Re: Death. philofillet Hi again Nina It was a strange afternoon, there were conditions for rather bkeak thinking even before I heard the sad news. As I jigged, thoygh, I geard something about the rare occurence of human birth, and it made me think about that sutta about goung from the light to the light, do we fulfill our good fortune of human birth by living in a way that develops kusala, on the whoke, rather than akusala?(Pribably a simplification of tgat sutta.) When I got home from my jog, I read your note about Lodewijk's passing, and wrote my little comment, then had lots of housework to do. I thought about Lodewijk in the light of that sutta and felt xonfudent that he was a man who made a great yse of the gift of human birth -working for peace and understanding as a diplomat, learning Dhamma, treasuring his spouse. Well, that is all I really know of him. So a good conventional reassurance about a life nobly lived. Then I listened to some of the Poland audio for the first time, A.Sujin's first talk, about how little we know, even this moment, we think we see Lujas, for exampke, but just visible object, and at one pount she talked about life as just one citta, but what is it, moment by moment, seeing, hearing, all so fleeting. Can we say what will come next, a moment of seeing, or hearing, or thinking? No. So flketing, this lufe of citta arising and fallung away, beyobd control. And yet it's great that Lodewijk can be celebrated as a man who lived a great life (in the sense of developing kusala) even as our understanding gradually develops that in the ultimate, liberating truth life is just one citta that arises, and then the next one, like the cuti citta and the rebirth citta, but also like any moment of seeing, hearing. But the Buddha *does* teach about the mangalas, whuch include such things as taking care of loved ones and mastering crafts. So as we (so to speak) move towards deeper understanding, we can celebrate Lodewijk's mangalas, if it can be put thay way, conventionally speaking. Understanding is developing not only in our understanding of what a citta is (and how quickly it falls away and how in the moment there is only that citta, nothing else, no person at all) but also in understanding what, according to the Buddha, constitutes a life well lived, as in the Mangala sutta. Just some thoughts. Is it a wee bit of cheating to celebrate a good man's life when we usually only talk about dhammas? I don't think so, maybe it is, maybe not. Depends on the citta at the moment of celebrating, I guess, whether there is understanding or just platitudes... Again, very sorry for your loss. Phil phil #126735 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. sukinderpal Dear Nina, Very sorry to hear this news about Lodewijk's passing away. I knew that he was sick but did not expect that we'd not meet again. Everything happens by conditions beyond control. I do hope however, that you will stay with us in good health and spirits and continue to share your understanding of the Dhamma for many more days to come. Metta, Sukin Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > >Dear Sarah and friends, > >Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to >Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is >another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who >was dear to one is also another person. > > >She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person >who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > >------- >Nina. > > > > #126736 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Death. jagkrit2012 Dear Nina I'm so sorry for your loss today. I do not know Lodewijk personally but I always admire him and your as my best dhamma friend the way you and him have shared and educated dhammas here and in Thailand many years. I always do hope that his departure of this world with all kusala will bring him to peaceful world and enjoy his panna he accumulates. Jagkrit #126737 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:30 pm Subject: Understanding the best comfort philofillet Hi all I was listening to the first day of the Poland talk, when Sarah paraphrases Lukas' feeling about wishing that Dhamma could be like a medicine to deal with painful feeling, etc, something we've all wished at times, I'm sure, whether consciously or not. (You know, I always go on about Dhamma being a comforter we sometimes cling to.) I really liked A.Sujin's comment, and also what Ann (I'm pretty sure) added: A.S Life changes all the time or doesn't change? See, by conditions, and no expectation, no speculation. Because it's always unknown about the conditions for anything to arise. But whenever there is panna, right understanding, the feeling of pain, or worry, or agitated or the unpleasant reality can be known as not-self, and as very temporary too. It can cure better than any other words, which is like very...it can comfort, but actually not, because it's not the truth.But when it's the truth, one knows that life is this, it's conditioned, and it changes, and we don't know what will be the next moment, let it come, with right understanding, and you'll see that everything keeps on changing. Lukas: But my question is it good to learn about the conditions and realities. A.S Yes, to really understand, oltherwise it brings pain and sorrow and unpleasant feeling, while life is like this. But seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing. No matter where, when, and whom. The dogs seeing, the cats seeing, the devas seeing, the animals seeing - seeing is seeing. Seeing cannot be cat, cannot be dog. Seeing is seeing. Ann: Sometimes we have the expectation that as we learn more about the Dhamma and understanding grows, that somehow painful things will arise less often. And that's not necessarily the case, the only thing that can be said is that there will be more understanding of them - maybe - mhen they arise. I add in passing that sometimes understanding is denied its rightful place when we assign feelings to others. For example, after my cousin committed suicide, surprisingly, there was peace of mind for his father. "You never know," as he wrote in a letter. I'm not saying that this is the case for Nina, but interesting to note how there is an assumption she is miserable, which is certainly possible but by being assumed kind of denies the potency of understanding! Anyways, I'll shut up now, but I like that above, that even the kindest words out squeezed out with the most care to try to comfort someone are not as helpful as understanding dhammas, and Dhamma. (But they are still nice!) Phil #126738 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. upasaka_howard Dear Nina - In a message dated 9/26/2012 1:31:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Sarah and friends, Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ------- Nina. =============================== I am so sorry. Lodewijk will be sorely missed. Though he and I met only once in person, I will miss him greatly! I do believe that this sweet man will fare very, very well, and I'm grateful that your loving memories of Lodewijk and your life together, and , for sure, the Buddha's Dhamma, will be great support for you. Love, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #126739 From: Icaro França Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:06 pm Subject: Re: Death. icarofranca Dear Nina. Sorry. I am so sorry...Mr. Lodewijk passed away . If his reborn citta's patterns keep some similarity with his past Self, one should say that Lodewijk Van Gorkon managed to escape the grinds of death... But that's very improbable, even at a statistical level about the continuous flow of cittas. Mme. Sujin's teachings are paramount about this painfully questions. Rest in peace, Chevalier Lodewijk Van Gorkon. Mettaya, Icaro dos Santos França, M.Sc. Pesquisador Tecnologista em Metrologia e Qualidade Instituto Nacional de Metrologia, Qualidade e Tecnologia - Inmetro Divisão de Gestão de Processos - Dgpro Diretoria de Metrologia Legal - Dimel Tel.: (21) 2679-9767 Isfranca@... www.inmetro.gov.br Enviado via iPad #126740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 nilovg Dear friends, There is the síla of the eightfold Path and this is: right speech (sammå våcå), right action (sammå kammanta) and right livelihood (sammå åjíva). These three factors are sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) and they are factors of the eightfold Path if they are accompanied by the right understanding (sammå ditthi) of the eightfold Path. When we abstain from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood (which is wrong speech and wrong action committed for the sake of our livelihood), without right understanding of the eightfold Path, there is síla, but not síla of the eightfold Path. When right understanding of nåma and rúpa has been developed it can arise when we refrain from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood, and that is síla of the eightfold Path. When we abstain from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. It depends on conditions whether there can be síla of the eightfold Path, but we should see the value of all levels of síla. We should apply ourselves to síla, right conduct in body and speech, be it refraining from ill deeds, sincere politeness, the paying of respect or helping others. Síla is a form of giving, because when we give up defilements it is also for the benefit and happiness of other beings; we let them live in peace and we do not harm them. When we have more loving kindness and compassion for other beings, even for insects, there are conditions to refrain from harming them. When we refrain from killing we give the gift of life. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Eights, Ch IV, § 9, Yields) about five gifts, given by a noble disciple [1]: “Herein, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of life and abstains from it. By abstaining from taking life, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, gives them freedom from hostility, and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, hostility and oppression....” The same is said about the other four precepts. By abstaining from stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and the taking of intoxicants one gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression. When we see síla as a gift of kindness to others it can inspire us to develop síla together with satipaììhåna so that we shall have less selfishness. --------- [1] I am using the translation of Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel Publication 238-240, B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. -------- Nina. #126741 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:20 am Subject: Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. I am very sorry to hear about your loss. There is a story about a Tibetan teacher who always told his students that the people they were attached to were illusory. When his own son died, he cried and grieved, and his students were angry. Why are you so griefstricken if your son was an illusion? The teacher replied: "I know he was an illusion, but he was such a beautiful illusion, I can't help but grieve." Much metta, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126742 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:58 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 philofillet Hi Nina > When we abstain > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. Phil #126743 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:07 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > When we abstain > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? > > Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126744 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:24 am Subject: Re: Death. truth_aerator Dear Nina, I am so sorry. Alex #126745 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:15 am Subject: Re: Death. kenhowardau Dear Nina, Please accept my sincere condolences. You and Lodewijk were very lucky to have each other for so long. I look forward to reading your treasured messages to DSG as soon as you are ready to continue. Ken H #126746 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:03 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 philofillet Hi Rob E Yes, what you write certainly makes sense. But things that make sense based on thinking about them logically are not always Dhamma. Dhamma is accirding to the tipitika and comnentaries and you and I share the habit of talking (i.e writing) and thinking and going on and on without actually studying any texts. (Book buying budgets, lack of discipline, whatever.) So thanks, yes, makes sense, probably correct but let's see what Nina, Sarah, or others who have properly studied the texts say. Phil #126747 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:49 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi Howard, > People DO remember "stories" of past lives. Key example: The Buddha > did. Perhaps then accumulation and remembrance are not the same thing. E.g. perhaps concepts don't accumulate but could be remembered? Which would then make it related to sanna again I guess. Does sanna mark concepts so as to remember/recognise them, even though they don't really exist? I don't know. Either way, I think the word used here originally for concepts was that they were "forgotten" on death, so I don't understand anymore what was meant by that. Best wishes pt #126748 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi KC, > KC: perplexity arise with delusion as a root condition. When perplexity is removed by sotapanna, the root condition of delusion that arise with perplexity is also removed. this is similiar to greed that arise with wrong views. All the other four greed root cittas that arise with wrong views are also eliminated by sotapanna. This is the meaning of having root-conditions removable by insight. Thanks. So if I understand right, in case of sotapana, the delusion which is the root for perplexity and wrong view is removed, but delusion which is the root for other higher fetters still remains? Best wishes pt #126749 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:02 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi KenH, > KH: Ultimately, there is no maths, and so, ultimately, no predispositions for maths. There can be concepts of those things, and they can be explained by other concepts – e.g., by genetic inheritance or by previous lifetimes as mathematicians – but not by conditionality. Good to have you back. Yes, I think you're right, so I guess I'm then looking for an explanation in conceptual terms. I.e. if it's said that one forgets all concepts (like maths) on death, but then it's also said that one becomes a mathematician due to previous lives as a mathematician, the two statements seem mutually exclusive to me, so there must be something I'm missing. Best wishes pt #126750 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:12 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi Alberto, > > pt: So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some > > are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? > > A: I think that what we refer to as one's predispositions etc. are due to past conditions like kamma. pt: Ok, then I must be using 'predisposition' wrongly, as KenH notes as well. > > pt: Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. > > A: I think it's sankhara khandha (formations) that accumulates, not sa~n~na khandha. pt: Ah, that's interesting. So akusala perception that arises with akusala cittas then accumulates not as perception but as ...? Not sure. > A: Neither do I, but I do remember the simile of the crow that mistakes a scarecrow for a person and gets scared (it's in visuddhimagga as well); sa~n~naa vipallaasa, distorsions, like atta-sa~n~naa, niccasa~n~naa, and sukhasa~n~naa, memory of self, of lastingness and of pleasantness. pt: So these distortions of sanna are accumulation of what exactly? > A: Sa~n~na arises with all cittas, kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaaka (resultants, like bhavanga), and kiriya (functional). I think 'neutral' refers to vedana khandha. pt: Thanks, that makes sense. Best wishes pt #126751 From: "Jessica" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Death. jessicamui Dear Nina, Sorry to hear that Lodewijk passed away. It may be hard to part with a life companion. I hope that you have the strenght to live through this difficult time, and please take good care of yourself mentally and physically. No matter where Lodewijk is taking rebirth, may he be well and happy! With Much Metta, Jessica. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126752 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:32 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 rjkjp1 Good job Robert, That is exactly what Nina meant. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > >Nina: When we abstain > > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. -------------- > > > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? > > > > Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - > #126753 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and perception upasaka_howard Hi, pt - In a message dated 9/26/2012 8:49:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Howard, > People DO remember "stories" of past lives. Key example: The Buddha > did. Perhaps then accumulation and remembrance are not the same thing. E.g. perhaps concepts don't accumulate but could be remembered? ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: I understood accumulation to refer to tendencies/inclinations conditioned by past experiences, thinking, and kamma. I don't think that recollection is the same. --------------------------------------------------- Which would then make it related to sanna again I guess. Does sanna mark concepts so as to remember/recognise them, even though they don't really exist? --------------------------------------------------- HCW: Seems a certainty to me. --------------------------------------------------- I don't know. Either way, I think the word used here originally for concepts was that they were "forgotten" on death, so I don't understand anymore what was meant by that. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: I think that for most beings that is indeed the case - forgotten at least at the surface. ------------------------------------------------------ Best wishes pt ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126754 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:55 pm Subject: Re: Death. jonoabb Dear All I sent the following off-list to Nina; Sarah has asked me to post it. Dear Nina I was very sorry to hear the sad news. Lodewijk was a special person to you, and also to all those who knew him well. He experienced success in worldly life, but more than that he was blessed with accumulations to consider the Dhamma which, through his involvement with your writings and with your support and encouragement, developed considerably during his lifetime. I have very fond memories of the many Dhamma trips the 4 of us shared together. He was always good company, and was able to see the humorous side of a difficult situation. He must have been a wonderful companion, especially with your many shared interests. The last few months could not have been easy for you, seeing Lodewijk's health deteriorate and yet being powerless to help. You will have had many occasions to reflect, as I am sure you still do now, on the cold truth that each person is heir to their (own) kamma. Occasions for equanimity. Yes, we had reminders in Poland of the fact that in each lifetime there is a person who is `special' for us, while the person who was `special' in the previous lifetime is completely forgotten. A sobering idea. The coming period will no doubt be a difficult one for you, but I know your firm understanding will continue to grow through it all. With my condolences Jonothan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126755 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:34 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 epsteinrob Thanks, Rob K., I appreciate it. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Good job Robert, > That is exactly what Nina meant. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Phil. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > >Nina: When we abstain > > > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. > -------------- > > > > > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? > > > > > > Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. > > > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. > > > > Best, > > Rob E. #126756 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:47 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Nina, While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. Best wishes Lukas #126757 From: sprlrt@... Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sprlrt Dear Han and Sarah, There is a passage in AN1 atthakatha, 13. ekapuggalavaggava.n.nanaa, commenting on the Buddha explanation of the Dhamma in conventional and absolute terms; sammutidesanaa: puggalo (a person), satto (a being), itthii (a woman), puriso (a man), khattiyo (a warrior), braahma.no (a brahmin), devo (a god), maaro (the evil-one); and paramatthadesanaa (anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani, satipa.t.thaanaa). It compares the 'two truths' to two languages, like Tamil and Hindi, in which a teacher of a specific subject, like the Vedas, is proficient. Depending on the language his students understand better, he teaches his subject accordingly. Alberto > Dear Han, > > > From: han tun > > >S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders > >that whatever > cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or > that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations > which lead this way or that. > > > >Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. > >But in the > case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the > pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that > sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the > pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. > .... > S:Does the the pubba-kicca (preparation) consist of dhammas which are > conditioned too? For example, when we "his mind has previously > (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that > state.", is the text not just talking about the development of > particular cittas and cetasikas? We read a lot about different > conditions, such as natural decisive support condition, object > condition, root condition and so on - aren't these developments and > attainments occurring as a result of all the different conditions? > Similarly, the cittas with lobha now, the determinations now, the > little wisdom arising now, are also arising by conditions, not any > "doer". ... > >I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and > >sammuti saccaa. > > ... > S: I agree that we need to use sammuti sacca in our daily life and we > can talk about a "doer" and "actions" and so on. However, isn't the > purpose of all such Teachings to help the development of > understanding of paramattha dhammas as being the "all" in truth, the > "all" as anatta dhammas? #126758 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Alberto (and Sarah), Thank you very much for your post. As I have said Sarah is right in the sense of paramattha saccaa. But I cannot be like Sarah, as I am still very much atta-oriented. However, it will lead nowhere if I insist on what I think. Besides, although younger than me I consider Sarah as my senior Dhamma partner. So I will be happy with whatever Sarah said. with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 9/27/12, sprlrt@... wrote: It compares the 'two truths' to two languages, like Tamil and Hindi, in which a teacher of a specific subject, like the Vedas, is proficient. Depending on the language his students understand better, he teaches his subject accordingly. #126759 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:26 pm Subject: Tranquility and Insight (2) hantun1 Dear Friends, AN 2.3 Baala vagga, 32. Translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Source: An Anthology of Suttas from the A"nguttara Nikaaya. 32. "Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammaa vijjaabhaagiyaa. Katame dve? Samatho ca vipassanaa ca. Two things, O monks, partake of supreme knowledge. [Note 3] What two? Tranquility and Insight. [Note 4] [Note 3] Vijjaabhaagiyaa; that is, they are constituents of supreme knowledge (vijjaa). This may refer either to the three true knowledge (tevijjaa), often mentioned in the discourses: (1) the knowledge of recollection of former births; (2) the knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings; and (3) the knowledge of the destruction of the taints, i.e. the attainment of arahantship; or it may refer to an eightfold divisions: (1) insight knowledge (vipassanaa-~naa.na), (2) the power of creating a mind-made body (manomayaa iddhi); (3)-(8) the six direct knowledge (abhi~n~naa). [Note 4] Tranquility (samatha) is concentration culminating in the jhaanas, being supremely tranquil and peaceful states; insight (vipassanaa), according to AA, is "the knowledge comprehending the formations" (sa"nkhaara-pariggaahaka-~naa.na) as impermanent, suffering and non-self. --------------- Samatho, bhikkhave, bhaavito kamattha manubhoti? Citta.m bhaaviiyati. Citta.m bhaavita.m kamatthamanubhoti? Yo raago so pahiiyati. If tranquility is developed, what benefits does it bring? The mind becomes developed. And what is the benefit of a developed mind? All lust are abandoned. [Note 5] [Note 5] When tranquility is developed independently of insight, it brings about the suppression of the five hindrances, the first of which is sensual lust, and issues in the "higher mind" of the jhaanas, characterized by the absence of lust. But it is only when tranquility is developed in conjunction with insight that it can give rise to the noble path, which eradicates the underlying tendency to sensual lust (by the path of non-returning)and attachment to becoming (by the path of arahantship). AA interprets tranquility here in this second sense -- presumably on account of the last sentence of the sutta -- and explains: "The mind becomes developed into the path-consciousness (magga-citta). Lust (raaga) becomes abandoned because it is opposed to (incompatible with) path-consciousness, and the path is incompatible with lust. At a moment of lust there is no path-consciousness; and at the path-moment there is no lust. When lust arises, it obstructs the arising of the path-moment, cutting off its basis; but when the path arises it uproots and eradicates lust." --------------- Vipassanaa, bhikkhave, bhaavitaa kamatthamanubhoti? Pa~n~naa bhaaviiyati. Pa~n~naa bhaavitaa kamatthamanubhoti? Yaa avijjaa saa pahiiyati. If insight is developed, what benefits does it bring? Wisdom becomes developed. And what is the benefit of developed wisdom? All ignorance is abandoned. [Note 6] [Note 6] AA: "It is the path-wisdom (magga-pa~n~naa) that becomes developed, i.e. it is expanded and augmented. The "ignorance abandoned" is the great ignorance at the root of the cycle of existence. Ignorance is incompatible with path-wisdom, and path-wisdom is incompatible with ignorance. At a moment of ignorance there is no path-wisdom, and at a moment of path-wisdom there cannot be ignorance. When ignorance arises, it obstructs the arising of path-wisdom and cuts off its basis; but when path-wisdom arises it uproots and eradicates ignorance. In this way, two coexistent phenomena have been dealt with here: path-consciousness (magga-citta) and path-wisdom (magga-pa~n~naa)." --------------- Raagupakkili.t.tha.m vaa, bhikkhave, citta.m na vimuccati, avijjupakkili.t.thaa vaa pa~n~naa bhaaviiyati. Iti kho, bhikkhave, raagaviraagaa cetovimutti, avijjaaviraagaa pa~n~naavimuttii"ti. A mind defiled by lust is not free; and wisdom defiled by ignorance cannot develop. Thus, monks, through the fading away of lust there is liberation of mind; and through the fading away of ignorance there is liberation by wisdom. [Note 7] [Note 7] Arahantship is often described as "taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom" (anaasava-cetovimutti-pa~n~naavimutti). AA explains "liberation of mind" as the concentration connected with the fruit (of arahantship; phala-samaadhi), "liberation by wisdom" (pa~n~naavimutti) as the wisdom connected with the fruit. --------------- with metta, Han #126760 From: "azita" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:08 pm Subject: Re: Death. gazita2002 Dear Nina, so sad to hear of Lodewijk's passing on, I imagine its a lot more sad for you. It's hard to think of the one we love being a totally different being following cuti citta, and yet this will happen to each and everyone of us, without exception - well, arahant is an exception. Patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126761 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:01 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception kenhowardau Hi Pt, ---- > Pt: <. . .> the two statements seem mutually exclusive to me, so there must be something I'm missing. ---- KH: I think you were asking some valid questions about sanna and I confused the issue (by reminding you that concepts were just concepts). Does sanna recognise concepts from earlier in this lifetime but not objects from previous lifetimes? As usual I don't know the answers but, as usual, I am prepared to guess: Bhavanga cittas restrict sense-door cittas to the current lifetime, don't they? We don't suddenly go back to another world that we were in long ago. So it is the bhavanga cittas that restrict sanna to objects that have been experienced in this lifetime. Ken H #126762 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:52 am Subject: Can Unwholesome universals be without thought? truth_aerator Dear all, I have this question. At the moment when there are no thoughts, can there be unwholesome universal qualities? Can there be delusion, shamelessness, fearlessness of wrong, or restlessness without thinking? Thanks, With best wishes, Alex #126763 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:57 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception sprlrt Hi pt, I'm posting Visuddhimagga on sa~n~naa, with Nina's comments and translation of its tiika which I've found helpful. Alberto 40794 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika THE PERCEPTION AGGREGATE] N: (....) Sa~n~naa cetasika accompanies each citta and thus, it is different as it 'marks' and remembers different objects, it can be of different jaatis or classes (kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya) and of different planes of citta, namely of the sensuous plane, of the plane of ruupa-jhaanacitta, of aruupa-jhaanacitta or of lokuttara citta. The object sañaa marks and remembers may be citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbaana, and also concepts, paññatti. Whatever object citta cognizes, sa~n~naa marks and remembers it. ***** Text Vis. XIV, 129: Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of perceiving should be understood, all taken together, as the perception aggregate' (par.81). N: The Tiika states that what was said of the feeling khandha must be applied to sa~n~naa khandha. The cetasika savaa is a separate khandha just as the cetasika feeling. As to the words 'all taken together' (sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa), we read in the Tiika to Vis. 81: N: The khandhas are classified as past, present, future, and in several other ways. The Tiika to Vis. 81: < "Characteristic of perceiving" means that its characteristic is the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. > Text Vis: And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of perceiving is perception itself, according as it is said, 'It perceives, friend, that is why it is called perception' (m.i,293). N: Just as in the case of the khandha of consciousness and of feeling, the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between Maha-Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: 'it perceives, it perceives, friend, that is why it is called perception.' Here what is said by the Tiika about feeling can also be applied to sa~n~naa. The Tiika (to Vis. XIV, 81) states with regard to feeling: The explanation of the action should be understood as follows: there is no doer apart from the dhamma with its own characteristic (Sabhaavadhammato a~n~no kattaa natthiiti dassanattha.m kattuniddeso). We are inclined to take sa~n~naa for self, but there is no doer apart from the dhamma which is sa~n~naa with the characteristic of marking and remembering. Text Vis: But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of perceiving, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, that associated with profitable consciousness is 'profitable', that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable', and that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. Since there is no consciousness dissociated from perception, perception therefore has the same number of divisions as consciousness [that is to say, eighty-nine]. N: The Tiika emphasizes that there is no citta that is dissociated from sa~n~naa. Sa~n~naa marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it can be recognized. Since it accompanies all eightynine cittas, it is different in each case. As the Vis. states: it can be kusala, akusala or indeterminate, including vipaaka and kiriya. When samatha is developed, sa~n~naa marks and remembers the meditation subject of samatha. When one listens to the Dhamma sa~n~naa assists the kusala citta that arises at that moment. Firm remembrance of the Dhamma that is heard is the proximate cause of sati of satipa.t.thaana which is mindful of naama and ruupa. ***** Nina. 41029 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Text Vis. : But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. N: The Tiika adds that sa~n~naa can be of four planes of consciousness (catubhuumika). Thus, depending on the citta it accompanies, it can be of the sensuous plane, of the planes of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana, and it can also be supramundane, lokuttara. The Tiika adds that its characteristic is the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc. Text Vis.: Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. N: Sa~n~naa marks the object so that it can be recognized later on. Just as carpenters make a sign on timber so that they can recognize it later on. They see that 'this is the same' (tadeva.m ti). The Tiika states that making a mark or label is the condition for perceiving the object again, for remembering or recognizing it. Every sa~n~naa should be interpreted in a similar way. Text Vis: It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant. (Ud. 68-69). N: The Vis. refers to a story in the Udana, about blind people who 'see' an elephant when touching different parts of it. Each of them interpretes differently what an elephant is. The person who touches the head thinks that the elephant is like a pot, and so on. Text Vis: Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men. N: The Tiika adds to the proximate cause, 'an object in whatever way that appears', that this is without thinking or consideration (avikappa). Thus, sa~n~naa performs its task of remembering or recognition without thinking about about the object that appears. Just as the fauns that see scarecrows as men. The Tiika states that sa~n~naa accompanied by pa~n~naa follows, complies with understanding, that it interpretes with pa~n~naa (tasmaa abhinivesakaarikaa), and that it does not apprehend wrongly. Sa~n~naa can be accompanied by samaadhi, and the Tiika states that this is not for a short time (acira.t.thaana). When samatha is developed, sa~n~naa has to perform its function for a long time. It has to mark and remember again and again the meditation subject, such as a colour kasina. In this way the meditator can acquire a mental image (nimitta) of it. He does not have to look at it again in order to remember it. When he is more advanced and calm has grown he can attain absorption with this subject. But it takes a long time, it is not easy. The Tiika states that sa~n~naa which accompanies desire, wrong view, conceit and other defilements follows (anuvattika) or complies with those defilements. In that case sa~n~naa is akusala and remembers wrongly. Vis. text: This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the perception aggregate. **** Conclusion: We read in the Dialogues of the Buddha II, Mahaa-parinibbaana sutta, D II, 79, that the Buddha spoke about seven conditons for welfare: the realization of right remembrance of impermanence (aniccaa-sa~n~naa), remembrance of non-self (anattaa-sa~n~naa), of the absence of corruption, of the danger of wrong thoughts, of the necessity of getting rid of them, of purity of heart, of nibbaana. The Commentary to this sutta explains that aniccaa-sa~n~na is sa~n~naa arisen with awareness or recollection of aniccaa (aniccaanupassanaaya). The same is true of anattaa-sa~n~naa and so on. Thus this refers to vipassanaa. Because of wrong view one has wrong remembrance of self, attaa-sa~n~naa, or one takes realities for permanent, and that is niccaa-sa~n~naa. Sa~n~naa accompanies each citta, and when it accompanies wrong view it is conditioned by wrong view. One may think of persons or things, there is the association of different impressions into a 'whole'; one takes persons and things for permanent and 'self'. Seeing or hearing seem to be lasting. One fails to understand that there are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Sa~n~naa 'follows' wrong view. Whereas, when sa~n~naa accompanies right understanding, it is conditioned by pa~n~naa and thus, it is completely different. It follows or complies with pa~n~naa. Right understanding knows that seeing and hearing arise because of their appropriate conditions and that they have to fall away. It knows that dhammas appear through the six doors, one at a time, and that they do not last. When right understanding is developed there will be, instead of wrong remembrance, right remembrance: anattaa-sa~n~naa and aniccaa-sa~n~naa. **** Nina. #126764 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear NIna and Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. ... S: "Let it come...!' She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. The understanding of death should be now, she said - the visible object or sound which falls away at this very moment. NIna, very best wishes for the funeral today. A very special occasion and yet, "just like now" - seeing, visible object, thinking - "dhammada", ordinary realities. Metta Sarah ====== #126765 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, Pt & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > I think that what we refer to as one's predispositions etc. are due to past conditions like kamma. .... S: Due to pakatu upanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition) primarily. This is how tendencies are accumulated. All interests, attachments, aversions, understandings accumulated in this way. Also wrong view, ignorance and so on - the cittas and cetasikas accumulated in the javana processes. Seeing, hearing and vipaka cittas are conditioned by kamma, not tendencies. .... Pt: > > Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. > > I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in > > particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my > > head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? > A: > I think it's sankhara khandha (formations) that accumulates, not sa~n~na khandha. ... S: All vedana, sanna, sankhara khandha cetasikas are accumulated. Sometimes we just refer to sankhara khandha because this includes most cetasikas. However, sanna is also accumulated whenever it arises in the javana processes marking and remembering this or that object, marking the signs of what has just been seen or heard. This is why sanna is referred to as 'the sign-maker". If it weren't for the accumulation of sanna marking the various signs and details, there wouldn't be the thinking about what has been seen and heard. Without reality, no nimitta, without nimitta no concepts. Each citta needs sanna to mark its object, whether it be reality or concept. The sanna accumulates, not the concepts, but it is the marking and remembering of particular signs, particular concepts now which leads to mark and remembering the same later. For example, we hear a name - many moments of thinking with sanna, vitakka and manasikara so that the name is recalled later. However, usually there's no remembering what we heard when we were young, the details are forgotten and no memory of the names from last life. K.Sujin was reminding us about how there is remembering of the taste of the meal for just a short time and then later it's forgotten, no conditions for sanna to remember. The same with what is seen or heard - it's soon forgotten. ... PT:> > And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not > > "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand > > "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that > > marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. > A:> Neither do I, but I do remember the simile of the crow that mistakes a scarecrow for a person and gets scared (it's in visuddhimagga as well); sa~n~naa vipallaasa, distorsions, like atta-sa~n~naa, niccasa~n~naa, and sukhasa~n~naa, memory of self, of lastingness and of pleasantness. .... S: Only javana cittas and cetasikas accumulate. The "marks", the signs are thought about. Just as the carpenter marks the different trees so that they can be found or remembered later, so sanna marks tastes, visible objects, sounds or concepts so that there will be the recalling of them later, depending on so many factors. This is how we can type or read or learn a language. Sanna vipallassa (perversion of sanna) arises with each akusala citta. The sotapanna eradicates atta sanna and nicca sanna (perversion of sanna with regard to self and permanence), but still sanna vipallassa whenever any cittas rooted in lobha, dosa or moha arise. ... Pt:> > Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's > > arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other > > cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" > > somehow? Thanks. > A:> Sa~n~na arises with all cittas, kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaaka (resultants, like bhavanga), and kiriya (functional). I think 'neutral' refers to vedana khandha. ... S: When sanna arises in the javana process it's kusala or akusala (or kiriya in the case of the arahat). When it arises with vipaka cittas (inc. bhavanga cittas), it's vipaka only. The vipaka is referred to as kusala or akusala vipaka, but this just refers to the kind of kamma (kusala or akusala) which conditioned that vipaka. The vipaka itself is not kusala or akusala. Vipaka cittas may be accompanied by pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling, depending. For example, seeing is accompanied by neutral feeling, bodily consciousness is accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling. In any case at all, with any citta at all, the sanna arises, marks and remembers the object and falls away. Metta Sarah p.s just seen (but not read) that you've posted a helpful quote from Vism and Nina's comments, so this may have all been clarified by now. ===== #126766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 28-sep-2012, om 9:11 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > NIna, very best wishes for the funeral today. A very special > occasion and yet, "just like now" - seeing, visible object, > thinking - "dhammada", ordinary realities. ------ N:Thank you. I certainly will keep in mind: just like now. I was so shocked about before, but later on appreciated. Life is only in one moment is helpful to remember. Sadness is also among the ordinary realities, it just depends on the moment. When I said to you: here every one is very supportive, I meant: here, on dsg. ----- Nina. #126767 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N:Thank you. I certainly will keep in mind: just like now. I was so > shocked about before, but later on appreciated. Life is only in one > moment is helpful to remember. Sadness is also among the ordinary > realities, it just depends on the moment. ... S: And it's unpredictable - we have all sorts of ideas and expectations, but we never know what dhamma will arise or appear next. Who can stop seeing, hearing, even happy or sad feeling from arising? As I mentioned at Phra D's funeral - one minute I was in tears, the next smiling after being reminded about clinging to my own pleasant feeling. ... > When I said to you: here every one is very supportive, I meant: here, > on dsg. ... S: Now I understand your comment. The best support is always from understanding Dhamma friends. And this is daily life - all that we have read and studied in the texts is just for the understanding of the present dhammas as anatta, no matter when or where. "Don't underestimate kamma" - it can produce its result anytime, anyway. Death could be the next moment, so the death moment should be the moment of right understanding now", K.Sujin told me. Very deep. One moment at a time - no expectations, "just like now". When it's the right time for you, we'll be glad to hear a brief report of the ceremony and the dhamma reminders you find helpful. Please accept all our dhamma wishes in place of flowers. As Howard often quotes: "Just as a dewdrop on the tip of a blade of grass quickly vanishes with the rising of the sun and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a dewdrop - limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death." Metta and warmest wishes Sarah ====== #126768 From: "azita" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Re: Death. gazita2002 Hallo Nina, Sarah and all, Have been thinking about death quite a bit lately as there has been a number of people I know and know of who have passed on. It is jst like now isnt it? Cittas arising and falling, one following another without a break, and it is only our mistaken view that it is my friend etc that has gone. This is not to make light of yr pain, Nina, bec even listening to dhamma and having some knowledge of how realities behave, does not make the loss of Lodewijk any easier for you, I feel sure. Until stages of enlightenment are reached there will be conditions for us to suffer, again and again, because of our ignorance and attachments. may all beings be happy azita - > > While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. > ... > S: "Let it come...!' > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. > > The understanding of death should be now, she said - the visible object or sound which falls away at this very moment. > > NIna, very best wishes for the funeral today. A very special occasion and yet, "just like now" - seeing, visible object, thinking - "dhammada", ordinary realities. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #126769 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:11 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, > > While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. > ... > S: "Let it come...!' > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. L: Tell it to Sumanaa, Sarah! Best wishes Lukas #126770 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, (Alex, Wojtek, Alberto, Pt & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > However, I wonder where is the fine line between substantial thinking vs delirious thinking? What is the criterion we can use as awareness during reading or discussing dhamma which can be self reminder when no one around to keep us in the line? ... S: Only pa~n~naa can know - whenever there is sa~n~naa vipallassa, perversion of sa~n~naa, with any akusala cittas, it's "delirious". Like whenever there's trying to get anything for oneself or whenever there is the idea of thing or person, it's there. Here's an extract from the Mulapariyaaya Sutta commentary, MN1 (transl by B.Bodhi): "..it is said: 'he perceives as a segment of earth.' 'Seizing upon the conventional expression': in this way the commentator shows that the perception of characteristic earth also occurs through the medium of the conventional expression. "Objection: If the conventional expression is applied, what is the fault? Don't ariyans also make use of the conventional expression, as when they say: 'This, venerable sir, is the great earth.' etc? "Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through the conventional expression. Thus he says: 'he perceives through a perversion of perception.' This is the meaning: He perceives it as beautiful, etc., through a perverted perception springing from unwise reflection. By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit and views is shown. "If so, it may be asked, why is perception mentioned? Because it is evident. Just as, when a fire is smoldering and smoke is seen, although the fire still exists, we say 'there is smoke' rather than 'there is fire,' because the smoke is more evident; in an analogous way, although conceiving is already exercising its function (in this perception), this function is not distinct. The function of perception alone is distinct, for perception is more evident. But this perception accords with the conceiving and works in conjunction with the latter; therefore he says: 'he perceives through a perversion of perception.' And when it is said that he perceives it thinking 'it is earth,' he means that, without releasing a segment of earth from among these four kinds, he perceives what is in its true nature devoid of self, etc., as endowed with a self, etc., like one perceiving a lump on the head as a piece of gold." ... S: Anytime the pathavii dhaatu, the hardness/softness/tangible object experienced is perceived as some thing, not an element or dhamma, there is atta sa~n~naa. "Having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception, the worldling afterwards conceives it, i.e., construes or discriminates it, through the strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit, and views, which are here called 'conceivings' (aparabhaage thaamapatthi ta.nhaamaanadi.t.thipapa~ncehi idha ma~n~nanaanaamena vuttehi ma~n~nati kappeti vikappeti). This accords with the statement: 'Concepts due to proliferation are grounded upon perception' (su~n~naanidaanaa hi papa~ncasa"nkhaa, Sn 874). He apprehends it in diverse ways contrary (to reality) (naanappakaarato a~n~nathaa ga.haati)." .... S: Through the conceiving, through the marking by sa~n~naa to the signs and details (nimitta anubya~ncana) with lobha and di.t.thi, reality is not seen as it is. When there is the development of understanding and awareness, gradually there is not so much of the usual attending to all these details with more and more lobha proliferation. Gradually the nimitta of reality is understood. Metta Sarah ====== #126771 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > S: "Let it come...!' > > > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. > > L: Tell it to Sumanaa, Sarah! .... S: :) Sumanaa had the courage to let go of impermanent realities and any idea of self. Without this understanding of dhammas as impermanent and anatta she couldn't have become a sotapanna. Whatever arose, she knew these were just dhatus, just dhamams. However, as Ann said in the comment Phil picked up on, this doesn't mean that there won't be a lot of unpleasant feeling conditioned by attachment. Only an anagami has no more attachment to sensuous objects and therefore no more dosa and domanassa. And really, no Sumanaa, no Lukas, no Sarah. Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. No excuse!! Metta Sarah ===== #126772 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, Arent you lead by your own memory? panna is not sanna. There is no particular way to understand. But sanna and thoughts comes in. Siila can help more than any words. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Lukas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > S: "Let it come...!' > > > > > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. > > > > L: Tell it to Sumanaa, Sarah! > .... > S: :) Sumanaa had the courage to let go of impermanent realities and any idea of self. Without this understanding of dhammas as impermanent and anatta she couldn't have become a sotapanna. Whatever arose, she knew these were just dhatus, just dhamams. > > However, as Ann said in the comment Phil picked up on, this doesn't mean that there won't be a lot of unpleasant feeling conditioned by attachment. Only an anagami has no more attachment to sensuous objects and therefore no more dosa and domanassa. > > And really, no Sumanaa, no Lukas, no Sarah. > > Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. > > As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > > No excuse!! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #126773 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > One more thing, would it be right to conclude that eradication here is referring to dhammas other than roots, so not roots themselves? It's a bit confusing - Rhys Davids translates triplet 9 as: > > 9. States the moral roots of which are to be put away by vision; culture; by neither. ... S: >9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. ... Here it's referring to dhammas with root causes eliminated by the sotapatti magga etc. So it is particular dhammas with roots that are eradicated, not the roots. As I mentioned, in the first case there are 12 kinds of akusala cittas. Of these, 4 kinds rooted in moha and lobha (i.e the four kinds with wrong view) plus one kind rooted in moha only (the one with doubt) are eradicated by the sotapanna. All the other kinds of akusala cittas are eradicated by the higher maggas. So the text isn't saying that lobha and moha are eradicated, but those kinds of dhamma rooted in lobha and moha, accompanied by wrong view are eradicated, plus the kind of moha with doubt. >pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". ... S: Like any kind of attachment arising now has lobha as a root cause, but clearly the lobha arising of the degree that likes the color of the wallpaper is not the same as the lobha of the degree that goes out to steal the neighbor's possessions. Same root cause, but the grosser kinds of lobha will be eradicated first. ... > So, it seems the emphasis here is on eradication of roots. And yet, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think any of the roots are actually eradicated by sotapatti magga ("vision" in her translation). Unless perhaps there are different sorts of moha for example, so with sotapatti magga, the kinds of moha that accompany wrong view and doubt are eradicated, but other kinds of moha (those that accompany other higher fetters) are not yet eradicated? ... S: Right, moha with doubt is eradicated first. Even an anagami has not eradicated moha, but certainly no doubt at all, not even for a sotapanna. Only three roots, but 12 kinds of akusala cittas, seven latent tendencies etc. So it's referring to the kinds of akusala cittas or the latent tendencies that are eradicated. As you say, moha and lobha only eradicated completely by the arahat and dosa by the anagami. ... > pt: So, I guess then the only point of triplet 9 is to draw attention to the fact that the fetters have roots? ... S: Before the text was talking about dhammas in general, now it's specifically talking about dhammas with roots. isn't this the way the texts work? Often talking about the broad categories, i.e. kusala, akusala, abyakattha dhammas, and then talking about subsets when the general categories are understood? This is why we have to understand what dhamma is now before we can understand what kusala or akusala dhamma is. Likewise, nly when we understand what dhamma is can we understand what dhamma with roots is. What do you think? Metta Sarah ==== #126774 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:14 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > Arent you lead by your own memory? ... S: There is sanna arising at every single moment - not yours or mine or anyone else's. ... > panna is not sanna. .... S: Right - when there's panna, no thought of 'me' and 'my unpleasant feelings' - just dhammas. .... > There is no particular way to understand. But sanna and thoughts comes in. Siila can help more than any words. ... S: Understanding what appears now is what helps - whatever the reality, whether seeing, visible object, pleasant, unpleasant feeling, ditthi, sila, metta - any dhamma at all. Metta Sarah p.s the Milinda texts were sent to yr add. Pls let us know when they arrive:-) > >S: Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. > > > > As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > > > > No excuse!! #126775 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:23 pm Subject: AN transl by Bodhi - very briefly sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Just this minute received our copy of the new AN translation and a thick, beautiful volume it is too. All I've done in haste, since posting my last message, is to check what he's done with the commentary note to the Luminous Sutta - I'd decided this would be my check:) Anyway, the very good news is that the commentary explanation is given in full. BB then goes on to add an extra page of reasoning as to why he finds the commentary explanation problematic. Fair enough - it's made very clear which is commentary and which is his personal comment. Often, I think, just a commentary summary is given when he doesn't find it controversial. Lots of notes. At a very brief glance, highly recommended like his other translations of Pitaka texts. metta Sarah ====== #126776 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:28 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, Why u telling that? There is a difference in encouraging someone to dhamma and just remembering things with all kinds of akusala. You destryed my private life when you came to Poland. Leaded by your own memory. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > Arent you lead by your own memory? > ... > S: There is sanna arising at every single moment - not yours or mine or anyone else's. > ... > > panna is not sanna. > .... > S: Right - when there's panna, no thought of 'me' and 'my unpleasant feelings' - just dhammas. > .... > > There is no particular way to understand. But sanna and thoughts comes in. Siila can help more than any words. > ... > S: Understanding what appears now is what helps - whatever the reality, whether seeing, visible object, pleasant, unpleasant feeling, ditthi, sila, metta - any dhamma at all. > > Metta > > Sarah > > p.s the Milinda texts were sent to yr add. Pls let us know when they arrive:-) > > > > >S: Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. > > > > > > As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > > > > > > No excuse!! > #126777 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: Old people have more lobha? philofillet Hello all A bit surprised, somehow, to hear A.Sujin say that old people have more lobha, it accumulates in a way that makes old people full of it, so to speak. Surely it's case by case, depending on which degree condtions lead to moments of understanding and detachment. If life is just one citta, if understanding can arise at any moment due to conditions,why does A.Sujin talk of such a predictable pattern of accumulation? Asking about it is just another delirious thinking feeder, I guess. phil #126778 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 philofillet Hi Rob E > > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. I see your explanation got a valuable stamp of approval. I can now consume it with confidence, and thank you again. Please understand if I continue to use this system for your responses to my posts, and those of anyone else who doesn't study tipitika and commentaries seriously and place trust in them. (Including me of course, I assume my opinion on Dhamma is crapola until informed otherwise, I am the anti-Kalaman.) Phil #126779 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:49 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > You destryed my private life when you came to Poland. Leaded by your own memory. ... I'm sorry you feel like this. I have no idea what you're referring to. It's a pity you didn't mention this to me when I was in Poland and we could have discussed it. I've always had your best interests at heart. Metta Sarah ===== #126780 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:56 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, > > You destryed my private life when you came to Poland. Leaded by your own memory. > ... > I'm sorry you feel like this. I have no idea what you're referring to. It's a pity you didn't mention this to me when I was in Poland and we could have discussed it. L: Unfortuantely it happened. Best wishes Lukas #126781 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:40 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) philofillet Dear Group Pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "When citta arises and congnises an object through one of the six doors, what kind of feeling is there? Pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and indifferent feeling are not the reality that is citta. They are types of cetasikas (mental factors) that Buddha has called 'vedaana cetasikas', the cetasikas that are feeling. Citta as well as cetasika are naama, but citta is the 'chief', the 'leader', in knowing an object. Citta is different from vedanaa cetasika, which feels pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent about the object that is appearing. Dhammas that arise cannot arise singly, they are dependent on other dhammas that arise simultaneously with them and that condition them. Citta must arise simultaneously with the cetasikas and cetasikas must arise simultaneously with the citta. Citta and cetasikas that arise together fall away together. They experience the same object and they arise and fall away at the same physical base. Each citta that arises is conditioned by different cetasikas that accompany it. Each citta performs a different function and thus there is a great diversity of types of cittas." (56-57) (end of passage) ph: We might think that our understanding can distinguish citta and cetasika, but isn't that one of the stages of insight? Do I have that wrong? It seems to me that all naama is a soup with ingredients that only the Buddha can distinguish, and perhaps there is a simile to that effect in the texts... Phil #126782 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:04 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > ph: We might think that our understanding can distinguish citta and cetasika, but isn't that one of the stages of insight? ... S: Even now seeing has a very different characteristic to feeling or (subsequent) attachment, for example. Seeing just sees what is visible, nothing else. ... >Do I have that wrong? It seems to me that all naama is a soup with ingredients that only the Buddha can distinguish, and perhaps there is a simile to that effect in the texts... ... S: Like distinguishing vitakka, vicar, phassa and manasikara now? If there's any attempt to try and distinguish or pinpoint, delirious for sure. This doesn't mean we can't hear, consider and become more familiar with the different tasks - just to understand better the anattaness of the moments of experiencing now, each one arising and falling away with different ingredients. I appreciate the way you give a quote followed by your reflections. I thought of you when I wrote my mini-review of the AN translation. A great work for sure. I also appreciate the sincerity in the comments when B.Bodhi just explains the difficulty he has with the commentary. I remember how surprised he was several years ago in HK when I almost begged him to include commentary notes and said how helpful we find them. I should write and show my appreciation, but need to look at it a bit more first. Metta Sarah ===== #126783 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:09 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: physical base. Each citta that arises is conditioned by different cetasikas that accompany it. Each citta performs a different function and thus there is a great diversity of types of cittas." (56-57) > > (end of passage) > > ph: We might think that our understanding can distinguish citta and cetasika, but isn't that one of the stages of insight? Do I have that wrong? It seems to me that all naama is a soup with ingredients that only the Buddha can distinguish, and perhaps there is a simile to that effect in the texts... > > Phil > Dear Phil I think the simile you are thinking of is this. King Milinda asked Nagasena why the Buddha was so respected: Nagasena said that the Buddha has accomplished a very diffiult task: 'If a man,' Nagasena says in reply to King Milinda, 'were to take a boat out to the sea, and if he were to take a handful of sea water and were then able to tell you that in it this much water is from the Ganges, this much from the Yamuna, and this much from the other great rivers of India, this would certainly be a very difficult thing to accomplish. In the same way, the Buddha has analyzed a single conscious moment of experience -- for instance, the experience of seeing a form--into its various component parts: matter, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness.'" Without the Buddha we wouldn't even be able to know such an anaylsis was useful or possible. robert #126784 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:53 am Subject: RE: [dsg] AN transl by Bodhi - very briefly dhammasaro Good friends all, Yes, on first brief review, I agree. I purchased three (3) copies (pre-publication) and received four days ago. Two copies are to be gifts. I see Bhikkhu Bodhi is no longer in New Jersey, USA. He is now at Chuang Yen Monastery, Carmel, New York, USA. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=33160&-Token.Action=Search&i\ mage=1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@... Just this minute received our copy of the new AN translation and a thick, beautiful volume it is too. <...> #126785 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:33 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) philofillet Hi Robert Thank you, very helpful. I think remember Azita mentionning a simile of a soup or a curry with a bunch of ingredients, but whether it was her own simile or from the tipitika, I don't know.. Phil #126786 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:42 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Like distinguishing vitakka, vicar, phassa and manasikara now? Ph: I always remember A.S saying to someone about phassa, something like you can say you are seeing now but can you say you are phassa now with a laugh. > If there's any attempt to try and distinguish or pinpoint, delirious for sure. This doesn't mean we can't hear, consider and become more familiar with the different tasks - just to understand better the anattaness of the moments of experiencing now, each one arising and falling away with different ingredients. Ph: Thanks, well explained. > I thought of you whn I wrote my mini-review of the AN translation. A great work for sure. I also appreciate the sincerity in the comments when B.Bodhi just explains the difficulty he has with the commentary. Ph: Well, I guess if there is equanimity or indifference one doesn't mind, but most people (judging from what I've seen at pop websites like Dhammawheel) weigh his opinion equally or greater than the opinion of the great ancients who provided the commentaries, which is kind of nuts and gives birth to what Scott called "neo-commentary." I don't know why he doesn't save his opinions for separate articles etc. But whatever, it doesn't matter really. What is the present reality? Not Bhikkhu Bodhi's opinion on this or that, nor is the present reality the steady movement (predicted by the Buddha) towards the decline/disappearance of Dhamma in the world. Visible object now! Phl #126787 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:55 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E > > > > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. > > I see your explanation got a valuable stamp of approval. I can now consume it with confidence, and thank you again. Please understand if I continue to use this system for your responses to my posts, and those of anyone else who doesn't study tipitika and commentaries seriously and place trust in them. (Including me of course, I assume my opinion on Dhamma is crapola until informed otherwise, I am the anti-Kalaman.) I was also happy to hear Rob K.'s response and it does give me more confidence in what I thought was the way this would occur. I think part of learning is putting out what one understands - not arbitrary nonsense, but something that is considered - and then see if it is correct or needs to be corrected. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah and all friends, Thank you for your kind letters of support. I thank Sarah and Jon, Han, Lukas, pt, Alberto, Phil, Rob K, Sukin, Jagkrit, Howard, Icaro, Ann, Rob E, Jessica, Azita and all friends. Han, I also think of our meeting in the hotel in Bgk, fond memories. Lukas: just visible object, nobody there, helped me a lot. It must help you too when you are sad or angry with a person: nobody there. Phil: you highlighted the same as me in Poland 1. I listen to Lodewijk's voice reciting the Perfections, and find comfort. But, as you often say: so much mixed with lobha. Also appreciation of his kusala. At that time it was a lot of work for him, on Sunday morning, making the recording with difficult equipment. Seeing now: this is actually many processes and each process with javanacittas rooted in lobha very often. When I had Lodewijk's company: countless cittas with lobha and now I better understand this. Howard: Sarah referred to your often quoted text about the dewdrops. How quickly life goes to its end, even now. Azita, :< each one of us is a different being after the cuticitta>. And even now, but hard to digest. Op 28-sep-2012, om 9:11 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the > impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea > of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, > visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not > self - just an element. As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > The understanding of death should be now, she said - the visible > object or sound which falls away at this very moment. ------- Very good. Also your very timely reminders to me just before the funaral. Just like now. I also remembered that crying is caused by such a lot of attachment and selfishness: no longer enjoying his company. It all seemed a dream, very unreal. But we are dreaming all day, anyway. The story: it was all very well executed, sober and silent, no speeches, no music. It did not last long. Walking to the grave behind the coffin. My old age: great trouble to keep the pace since I am so slow. Sun shining and lots of beautiful trees. Now all the paper work, trying to understand taxes, sale of car, insurance polis etc. More stories the coming days. What lies in store for me? With gratefulness for all the support, Nina. #126789 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 nilovg Dear Phil, Op 26-sep-2012, om 19:58 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > When we abstain > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to > concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there > be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is > "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? ------- N: As Rob E understands so well, different moments. Our whole life is such a mixture. Difficul to unravel it. Clinging can never be kusala. There are also moments of kusala cittas that abstain, in between. Nina. #126790 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > I sincerely appreciate your comments. > The only problem is I cannot reach that stage where there is no self, no doer, or no control, etc. > Yes, it is indeed the purpose of all the Teachings. > But it will take a long, long time for me to gain that purpose. ... S: It's the same for us all. We all need to hear and consider a lot about dhammas, dhatus, khandhas, ayatanas and so on to really get used to the truth that there is no self, no doer amongst them. Clinging to the idea of self and ignorance have been accumulated for aeons, but appreciating the difficulty and the deep-rooted nature of self view shows an appreciation of the Buddha's wisdom and the Teachings. The Buddha never said it was easy. At least there is a beginning now as we remember that all is seen is visible object and so on. ... > > No, no, I will not ignore your comments. > How can I? > I always look up to you. ... S: Thank you, Han. Likewise, I greatly respect your confidence in the Teachings and how even if physically frail, there is nothing more precious than the understanding and wise consideration in our lives. Metta Sarah ====== #126791 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Icaro, So glad to hear from you and to know you're still reading messages. As usual, you made me smile:-) Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Icaro França wrote: > Rest in peace, Chevalier Lodewijk Van Gorkon. #126792 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Alberto & Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: >A: There is a passage in AN1 atthakatha, 13. ekapuggalavaggava.n.nanaa, commenting on the Buddha explanation of the Dhamma in conventional and absolute terms; > sammutidesanaa: puggalo (a person), satto (a being), itthii (a woman), puriso (a man), khattiyo (a warrior), braahma.no (a brahmin), devo (a god), maaro (the evil-one); > and paramatthadesanaa (anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani, satipa.t.thaanaa). > > It compares the 'two truths' to two languages, like Tamil and Hindi, in which a teacher of a specific subject, like the Vedas, is proficient. > Depending on the language his students understand better, he teaches his subject accordingly. ... S: We looked in the new Bodhi translation of AN to see if it has any of this commentary detail, but it doesn't'. He couldn't include everything. There's a passage in the Poland audio from the morning of the 13th (the day some went to Gdansk and we had so much discussion) in which K.Sujin is stressing how the purpose of the Teachings is to help those who have accumulations to understand realities as not self at all. It's the truth and the words include everything because he was enlightened to the truth about realities perfectly. She goes on to stress how whenever he met anyone he taught whatever subject matter and in whatever kind of language that person could follow - whether it was to be polite or have metta or whatever, indicating less clinging to self and the idea of self and all other kinds of unwholesomeness. She talked about how the Buddha is our best friend because he was patient enough to help us develop all kinds of goodness with right understanding. While I was looking for the sutta and commentary note you referred to, I found some notes to the very first sutta in AN 1s, "Obsession of the Mind". This is the sutta which refers to how the form, sound, odor and so on of a woman obsesses a man and vice versa. It is, of course, just what K.Sujin was talking about when she referred to how when we think we love someone so dearly, it's really just the visible object, sound and other rupas we're so attached to. There is an interesting note from the commentary given on 'subhanimitta' as in: "Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing on account of which unarisen sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and expands so much as the *mark* of the attractive." The note says: " 'Subhanimitta.Mp: 'The mark of the attractive is an object that is a basis for lust.' Mp cites various uses of the word 'nimitta': as a condition (paccaya), a cause (kaara.na), concentration (samaadhi), and insight (vipassanaa). Here it means 'an agreeable object that is a basis for lust' (raga.t.thaaniyo i.t.thaaramma.nadhammo)." Han, I thought this might be relevant to this discussion about satipatthana as condition for samma samaadhi in the Culavedalla Sutta, MN. Metta Sarah ===== #126793 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Kalpa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kalpa" wrote: > Btw, in our discussion, by "manasikara" it keeps exist the citta, because nothing can exist in mind without thinking.(manasikara sambhawa sabbe dhamma) sambhawa means exist. ... S: Yes, manasikara arises with every citta, attending to the object at every moment. ... > Then sati can be in akusala chitta also as "michcha sati" & being harmfull, but 'samma sati' mentions always in dhamma, thus given as sobhana chetasika. For example, one can have sharp awareness(sati) to carry out a planned murder, & he can recall it later with sati, then both times michcha sati arised. ... S: Sati is always a sobhana cetasika and can't arise with akusala cittas. However, you're correct when you suggest that the Buddha also pointed out the wrong path and in AN and elsewhere refers to miccha sati. Here, it is not referring to sati cetasika, but various akusala mental factors called wrong awareness. ... > We should never ignore practical reality while learning dhamma, because dhamma is also to realize things as they exist practically & not to surpass the reality. Dhamma is for use as a vehicle & not to hold as a weight like "god's myth beliefs". ... S: I agree about the practical aspects. We may become fixated on a text or book and read a lot about lobha, dosa and metta, for example, but not understand or be aware of the dhammas when they arise at this moment. .. > Buddha described sati as the ability of recalling & five "nivarana" also prevent recalling. You'll not be able to recall even where you're at present when you've "tina middha" nivarana in your mind, so what a past can remind then.? ... S: Again, there can be recalling rightly or wrongly, with kusala or akusala cittas. So, always back to the understanding and awareness now, whatever arises. Thank you for these and other helpful comments. I look forward to hearing more from you. Metta and respect Sarah ==== #126794 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:17 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Kalpa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kalpa" wrote: >By "abhidhamma" book, sati given as a sobhana chetasika is misleading. Buddha never say anything which causes to mislead. I'd like to warn all wise folk about learning abhidhamma because it mainly contains 2 types called suttanta naya & abhidhamma naya. That's dhamma taken from sutta & dhamma described later by monks, which as it not in Buddhas words. Their description might defer than what buddha said. Some other contents are mentioned as completely their thoughts. > So this's like a fruit salad mixed with some spoiled fruits also & you'll not be able to digest it if you eat it as it is.. ... S: With respect, I'd like to suggest that the "spoiled fruits" are the ignorance and wrong view when reading the Dhamma/Abhidhamma. When the dhamma/abhidhamma is truly understood as being about the reality now - seeing now, visible object now, attachment now - there are no "spoiled fruits", only beautiful fruit salad! ... > Abhidhamma is so useful as far as not ignoring things as they're we experience & not being slavers of it. I said this is, ... S: As we're always told, "Abhidhamma is not in the book" - it's the truth about what is real at this moment. You may like to read a section in 'Useful Posts' in the DSG files under "Abhidhamma vs Suttanta". Also one under "Abhidhamma - origins." Metta & respect Sarah ===== #126795 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:26 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (DMR), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "aungsoeminuk" wrote: > There left a thing when conditions _for arising of a citta_were mentioned. > > 1. for seeing (light) / aaloka > 2. for hearing (space) / aakaasa > 3. for smelling (air) / vaata > 4. for tasting (saliva) / aapa > 5. for touching (nerve-complex) / thaddha pathavii > 6. for thinking (flow-of-knowing) / bhavanga cittas > > No light at all no seeing. No space at all no hearing_: Under water we can hear through the media of water which contain space. But when there is vacuum there is no hearing at all. ... S: That's true - there must be the open space for hearing to occur, not just the space in between the kalapas. ... > > No air no smelling. We pinch our nose when face with foul smell. No saliva no taste. Rub the tougue to dry and put salt on it no taste at all. But when a drop of water is put tasting arise. > > No nerve no touching. Paraplegic feet cannot sense anything hot, cold, touch, pinprick. ... S: I think that thaddha pathavii just refers to hardness (earth element), doesn't it? ... > > When there is active procession of viithi cittas (conscious mind) thinking cannot arise. Thinking just arises after completion of perception. ... S: Bhavanga citta is given as the doorway for mind-door processes. Without the bhavanga citta before the mind door process arising and falling away, no thinking. Glad to read your comments as always. metta Sarah ==== #126796 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Sarah (and Alberto), Sarah: There is an interesting note from the commentary given on 'subhanimitta' as in: "Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing on account of which unarisen sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and expands so much as the *mark* of the attractive." The note says: " 'Subhanimitta.Mp: 'The mark of the attractive is an object that is a basis for lust.' Mp cites various uses of the word 'nimitta': as a condition (paccaya), a cause (kaara.na), concentration (samaadhi), and insight (vipassanaa). Here it means 'an agreeable object that is a basis for lust' (raga.t.thaaniyo i.t.thaaramma.nadhammo)." Han, I thought this might be relevant to this discussion about satipatthana as condition for samma samaadhi in the Culavedalla Sutta, MN. --------------- Han: I also find various meanings of nimitta in PTS Dictionary. Nimitta = (1) sign, omen, portent; (2) outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon; (3) mark, aim; (4) sexual organ; (5) ground, reason, condition. In MN 44, Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translated [cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa] as the four foundations of mindfulness are the *basis* of concentration. So, it is alright, Sarah. I now understand what Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi meant in his Note. Thank you very much for your additional comments. with metta and respect, Han #126797 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:When there's doubt and speculation about the 8fold path, future >lives, memorizing of classifications not properly understood and so >on, it's not sacca ~naana. This is why she stressed how vitakka >('thinking') always takes the citta away from the present reality. > >=================================================== > >A: If past/future rebirths were self evident truth than one wouldn't need to think about it. Same with classifications. Even the Buddha had different types of classification (2, 3, 5,6,12,18). Different Abhidhammas had different classification schemes. If it was self evident then wouldn't there be one teaching and no doubt about that? ... S: The point is, when we read about past/future lives, about 18 dhatus or whatever classification it is, does it lead to more understanding of the present dhammas or does it just lead to attachment to another collection of details, like a fossil hunter collecting samples? The value in what we read is only in the understanding of what arises now as anatta. Metta Sarah ===== #126798 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Alberto (& Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. ... S: And of course, the factors that arise with the lokuttara cittas are equivalent in strength to jhana cittas. (Vipassana nana samadhi equivalent in strength to upacara). ... > I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, ... S: Yes, and this is why the Buddha taught that all kusala other than the development of vipassana is wrong path in this sense. Of course, at any moments of kusala, including vipassana, there is samatha already, the cittas are calm. ... >and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. ... S: Yes - see note above about upacara. ... > Superiority which is found in tipitaka also in the classification of paramattha dhammas as paritta (kaamaavacara), mahaggata (ruupa and aruupaavacara) and appamaa.na (lokuttara); small, great and immeasurable realities. ... S: Yes - 'great' or mahaggata cannot compare with 'immeasurable' or appamaa.na. Metta Sarah ==== #126799 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:45 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro sarahprocter... Dear Betty, After your lovely re-introduction, you've been very quiet. Do hope all is well and that you've had a chance to read the Poland summaries of discussions and perhaps to listen to some of the audio uploaded. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala wrote: >Yes, I was supposed to go to > Poland with the group, but unfortunately, to make a long story short, there > were no conditions for me to go, period. The story of all that is just > that, the story. At first I was chagrined, to say the least, but then I > thought, ah well, conditions and the dosa dissipated. ... S: I thought of you. It's so helpful to have heard the Dhamma and to understand that the long stories are just that - "the story" as you put it well. Yes, there are always conditions for dosa on account of things not going our way, clinging to sense objects and more stories again, but appreciating the truth means at least there is some understanding. ... > Do have a wonderful time, tell us all about it when you get back, and I > hope there will be plenty of conditions for understanding to arise for all > of you while there. ... S: I appreciated your kind wishes to everyone even though you couldn't make it. Mudita - being glad in others' good fortune, a wonderful quality. Metta Sarah ===== #126800 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Very good. Also your very timely reminders to me just before the > funaral. Just like now. I also remembered that crying is caused by > such a lot of attachment and selfishness: no longer enjoying his > company. It all seemed a dream, very unreal. But we are dreaming all > day, anyway. ... S: Yes, dreaming all day and in no time the dream of this life is over. ... >The story: it was all very well executed, sober and > silent, no speeches, no music. It did not last long. > Walking to the grave behind the coffin. My old age: great trouble to > keep the pace since I am so slow. Sun shining and lots of beautiful > trees. ... S: Thank you. Very appropriate. ... > Now all the paper work, trying to understand taxes, sale of car, > insurance polis etc. More stories the coming days. What lies in store > for me? ... S: No hurry, it'll take a while to recover. What lies in store for us all? Dhammas! More seeing, more hearing, more dreams - some understanding now of all that we've heard. One citta at a time. On sadness and grief, always helpful to read the Salla Sutta again, I find. Metta Sarah Sn 3.8 Salla Sutta The Arrow (John Ireland transl) [A recollection on death] Source: From The Discourse Collection: Selected Texts from the Sutta Nipata (WH 82), translated by John D. Ireland (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). ... "Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life. "The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter. "In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain. "By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. "Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. "Therefore, having listened to the arahant[The Buddha}, one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." "As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief. "With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana." ***** #126801 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 29-sep-2012, om 13:06 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > No hurry, it'll take a while to recover. What lies in store for us > all? Dhammas! More seeing, more hearing, more dreams - some > understanding now of all that we've heard. One citta at a time. ------- N: Very good to read the Salla sutta again when feeling bad. Nina. #126802 From: "Alberto" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:12 am Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sprlrt Dear Sarah, Han, The same passage is also in MN1 Atth., 5. Ananga.nasutta; B. Bodhi mentions it in a note but leaves this simile out. Here the simile is detailed more clearly: the teacher stands for the Buddha; the tree Vedas for the three pitakas; the two languages in which the teacher teaches stand for the two ways, conventional and absolute, in which the Buddha explains the Dhamma. Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Dear Alberto & Han, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@ wrote: > > >A: There is a passage in AN1 atthakatha, 13. ekapuggalavaggava.n.nanaa, commenting on the Buddha explanation of the Dhamma in conventional and absolute terms; > > sammutidesanaa: puggalo (a person), satto (a being), itthii (a woman), puriso (a man), khattiyo (a warrior), braahma.no (a brahmin), devo (a god), maaro (the evil-one); > > and paramatthadesanaa (anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani, satipa.t.thaanaa). > > > > It compares the 'two truths' to two languages, like Tamil and Hindi, in which a teacher of a specific subject, like the Vedas, is proficient. > > Depending on the language his students understand better, he teaches his subject accordingly. > ... > S: We looked in the new Bodhi translation of AN to see if it has any of this commentary detail, but it doesn't'. He couldn't include everything. > > There's a passage in the Poland audio from the morning of the 13th (the day some went to Gdansk and we had so much discussion) in which K.Sujin is stressing how the purpose of the Teachings is to help those who have accumulations to understand realities as not self at all. It's the truth and the words include everything because he was enlightened to the truth about realities perfectly. > > She goes on to stress how whenever he met anyone he taught whatever subject matter and in whatever kind of language that person could follow - whether it was to be polite or have metta or whatever, indicating less clinging to self and the idea of self and all other kinds of unwholesomeness. She talked about how the Buddha is our best friend because he was patient enough to help us develop all kinds of goodness with right understanding. > > While I was looking for the sutta and commentary note you referred to, I found some notes to the very first sutta in AN 1s, "Obsession of the Mind". This is the sutta which refers to how the form, sound, odor and so on of a woman obsesses a man and vice versa. It is, of course, just what K.Sujin was talking about when she referred to how when we think we love someone so dearly, it's really just the visible object, sound and other rupas we're so attached to. > > There is an interesting note from the commentary given on 'subhanimitta' as in: > "Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing on account of which unarisen sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and expands so much as the *mark* of the attractive." > > The note says: " 'Subhanimitta.Mp: 'The mark of the attractive is an object that is a basis for lust.' Mp cites various uses of the word 'nimitta': as a condition (paccaya), a cause (kaara.na), concentration (samaadhi), and insight (vipassanaa). Here it means 'an agreeable object that is a basis for lust' (raga.t.thaaniyo i.t.thaaramma.nadhammo)." > > Han, I thought this might be relevant to this discussion about satipatthana as condition for samma samaadhi in the Culavedalla Sutta, MN. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #126803 From: "connie" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:19 am Subject: Re: Death. nichiconn Lukas, congratulations on the loss of your old, self-destructive life. connie Dhp. Verse 47: Like one who picks and chooses flowers, a man who has his mind attached to sensual pleasures is carried away by Death, just as a great flood sweeps away a sleeping village. http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=047 Pubbakammapilotika-Buddhaapadaana.m, Apadaana 39.10 verse 9 and Commentary (Visuddhajanavilaani.nii) The Traditions about the Buddha (known as) The Connection with Previous Deeds (or Why the Buddha Suffered) A Headache In the ninth enquiry, (called) a headache, (we hear about how he had) a pain in the head, painful feeling in the head. In the past, it seems, the Buddha-to-be was reborn as a fisherman in a fisherman's village. One day, together with the fishermen, after going to the place where they murder fish, and seeing fish being murdered, happiness arose right there, and also right there and then happiness arose for those he was with. Through that unwholesome deed, after undergoing suffering in the four lower realms, in this his last state of existence, together with those men, after being born in the Royal Sakya family, and by attaining to Buddhahood he himself suffered from pain in the head. And about the Sakyan Royalty (and their fate) it is recorded in the discussion in the commentary to the Dhammapada: in the battle with Vi.duu.dabha they all came to destruction. Therefore it is said: (Before) I was a fisherman's son in a fisherman's village, Having seen fish being killed it produced a little happiness; Through that deed and through its result I had a (great) pain in my head, And all the Sakyans were killed when Vi.duu.dabha slay them. http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Connection-with-Pre\ vious-Deeds/index.htm http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Connection-with-Pre\ vious-Deeds/09-A-Headache.htm > > > You destryed my private life #126804 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:15 am Subject: Tranquility and Insight (3) hantun1 Dear Friends, AN 4.170. Yuganaddhasutta.m: Ways to Arahantship Translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Source: An Anthology of Suttas from the A"nguttara Nikaaya. 170. Eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m aayasmaa aanando kosambiya.m viharati ghositaaraame. Tatra kho aayasmaa aanando bhikkhuu aamantesi: "Aavuso bhikkhave"ti. "Aavuso"ti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato aanandassa paccassosu.m. Aayasmaa aanando etadavoca: "Yo hi koci, aavuso, bhikkhu vaa bhikkhunii vaa mama santike arahattappatti.m byaakaroti, sabbo so catuuhi maggehi, etesa.m vaa a~n~natarena. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Aananda was dwelling at Kosambii in Ghosita's monastery. There the Venerable Aananda addressed the monks thus: "Friends!" "Yes, friend." The monks replied. Thereupon the Venerable Aananda said: "Friends, whatever monks or nuns declare before me that they have attained the final knowledge of arahantship, all these do so in one of four ways. --------------- "Katamehi catuuhi? [1] Idha, aavuso, bhikkhu samathapubba"ngama.m vipassana.m bhaaveti. Tassa samathapubba"ngama.m vipassana.m bhaavayato maggo sa~njaayati. So ta.m magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti. Tassa ta.m magga.m aasevato bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa byantiihonti. "What four? [1] "Here, friends, a monk develops insight preceded by tranquility (samatha-pubba"ngama.m vipassana.m). [Note 65] While he thus develops insight preceded by tranquility, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated. [Note 66] [Note 65] Samatha-pubba"ngama.m vipassana.m. This refers to a meditator who makes tranquility the vehicle of his practice (samatha-yaanika), i.e., one who first develops access concentration, the jhaanas or the formless attainments and then takes up insight meditation (vipassanaa). [Note 66] "The path" (magga) is the first supramundane path, that of stream-entry. To "develop that path", according to A.A. means to practice for the attainment of the three higher paths. --------------- [2] "Puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhu vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m bhaaveti. Tassa vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m bhaavayato maggo sa~njaayati. So ta.m magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti . Tassa ta.m magga.m aasevato bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa byantiihonti. [2] "Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquility preceded by insight (vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m). [Note 67] While he thus develops tranquility preceded by insight, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated. [Note 67] Vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m. AA: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and the, based on insight, produces concentration (samaadhi)." AT: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." --------------- [3] "Puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhu samathavipassana.m yuganaddha.m bhaaveti. Tassa samathavipassana.m yuganaddha.m bhaavayato maggo sa~njaayati. So ta.m magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti. Tassa ta.m magga.m aasevato bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa byantiihonti. [3] “Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquility and insight joined in pairs (samathavipassana.m yuganaddha.m). [Note 68] While he thus develops tranquility and insight joined in pairs, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated. [Note 68] Samathavipassana.m yuganaddha.m. In this mode of practice, one enters the first jhaana and then, after emerging from it, applies insight to that experience, i.e. one sees the five aggregates within the jhaana (form, feeling, perception, etc.) as impermanent, liable to suffering and non-self. Then one enters the second jhaana and contemplates it with insight; and applies the same pair-wise procedure to the other jhaanas as well, until the path of stream-entry, etc., is realized. --------------- [4] "Puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhuno dhammuddhaccaviggahita.m maanasa.m hoti. Hoti so, aavuso, samayo ya.m ta.m citta.m ajjhattameva santi.t.thati sannisiidati ekodi hoti samaadhiyati. Tassa maggo sa~njaayati. So ta.m magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti. Tassa ta.m magga.m aasevato bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa byantiihonti. [4] "Or again, friends, a monk's mind is seized by agitation caused by higher states of mind. [Note 69] But there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steadied, composed, unified and concentrated; then the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated. [Note 69] Dhammuddhaccaviggahita.m maanasa.m hoti. According to AA, the "agitation" (uddhacca) meant here is a reaction to the arising of the ten "corruptions of insight" (vipassanuupakkilesa) when they are wrongly taken as indicating path attainment. --------------- "Yo hi koci, aavuso, bhikkhu vaa bhikkhunii vaa mama santike arahattappatti.m byaakaroti, sabbo so imehi catuuhi maggehi, etesa.m vaa a~n~natarenaa"ti. "Friends, whatever monks or nuns declare before me that they have attained the final knowledge of arahantship, all these do so in one of these four ways." -------------------- Han: In this sutta, whether one starts the practice with samatha, or with vipassanaa, or with both, ultimately it ends up with samatha and vipassanaa yoking together in harmony. That is why the sutta is named "Yuganaddha." I find the yoking together of samatha and vipassanaa in another sutta: MN 149 Mahaasa.laayatanika Sutta (translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) 10. The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have already been well purified earlier. Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development. When he develops this Noble Eightfold Path, the four foundations of mindfulness also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four right kinds of striving also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four bases for spiritual power also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five faculties also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five powers also come to fulfilment in him by development; the seven enlightenment factors also come to fulfilment in him by development. These two things - serenity and insight - occur in him yoked evenly together (Tassime dve dhammaa yuganandhaa vattanti--samatho ca vipassanaa ca). [Note 1342] He fully understands by direct knowledge those things that should be fully understood by direct knowledge. He abandons by direct knowledge those things that should be abandoned by direct knowledge. He develops by direct knowledge those things that should be developed by direct knowledge. He realises by direct knowledge those things that should be realised by direct knowledge. [Note 1342] MA says that this refers to the simultaneous arising of serenity and insight in the supramundane path. The former is present under the heading of right concentration, the latter under the heading of right view. with metta, Han #126805 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:04 am Subject: Re: Death. philofillet Hi Connie, Lukas, all > Lukas, > congratulations on the loss of your old, self-destructive life. > connie Excellent, Connie! Excellent! Like Lukas, I have a lot of addictive tendencies. (Lukas was cryptic, so we don't know quite what he was referring to, but in the past he has made references to substance abuse and obsessive love interests, both of which represent addictive tendencies, I think it is safe to say.) THe Buddha (through good Dhamma friends, or, less likely, through proper understanding of the tipitika without the guidance of good friends) helps to provide conditions for those tendencies to be destroyed, gradually. I don't believe Lukas' private life has been destroyed yet, though. That would be wishing for a shortcut. But I'm sure through the support of good friends like Sarah who explain Dhamma so clearly, progress is being made. Again, Lukas was cryptic, so perhaps I/we are taking liberties with this, but I will at least take what you wrote for myself, it would be great to have my private life with its unwholesome tendencies destroyed. One moment of understanding at a time, though, no shortcuts. Hang in there Lukas! Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Lukas, > congratulations on the loss of your old, self-destructive life. > connie > > Dhp. Verse 47: Like one who picks and chooses flowers, a man who has his mind attached to sensual pleasures is carried away by Death, just as a great flood sweeps away a sleeping village. > http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=047 > > #126806 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:24 am Subject: Re: Death. philofillet Hi again all > Like Lukas, I have a lot of addictive tendencies. To clarify - as Sarah and others point out, we all have addictive tendencies and we are all intoxicated by sense door and mind door objects. That is true. But due to different accumulations of kilesas there are different degrees of intensity of addictive tendencies, harmfulness to oneself and others etc...we can recognize that and also recognize that they are tendencies of kilesas, not self. phil #126807 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Alberto, Could you kindly give me the full text of the simile about the teacher, the tree and two langusges? Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 9/29/12, Alberto wrote: Dear Sarah, Han, The same passage is also in MN1 Atth., 5. Ananga.nasutta; B. Bodhi mentions it in a note but leaves this simile out. Here the simile is detailed more clearly: the teacher stands for the Buddha; the tree Vedas for the three pitakas; the two languages in which the teacher teaches stand for the two ways, conventional and absolute, in which the Buddha explains the Dhamma. Alberto #126808 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:20 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi Howard, > HCW: > I understood accumulation to refer to tendencies/inclinations > conditioned by past experiences, thinking, and kamma. I don't think that > recollection is the same. Yes, there must be some difference. I think I'm confused about what exactly is "accumulated" when it comes only to sanna itself. Recollection is something that happens thanks to sanna, but what role "accumulation" in sanna actually plays in recollection is still beyond me. Best wishes pt #126809 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:36 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi KenH, > Does sanna recognise concepts from earlier in this lifetime but not objects from previous lifetimes? As usual I don't know the answers but, as usual, I am prepared to guess: > > Bhavanga cittas restrict sense-door cittas to the current lifetime, don't they? We don't suddenly go back to another world that we were in long ago. So it is the bhavanga cittas that restrict sanna to objects that have been experienced in this lifetime. That could makes sense. I was more wondering about the reason for being good at something now, rather than remembering things from past life - like if you are good at languages, there's certainly no memory of you learning a language in a past life, but yet, there's this ability to learn a language quickly, have a good grasp of the grammar, etc. What's that ability based on and how much would it have to do with accumulations in sanna? I realise it might be more dhamma-related if we were to pose the question in terms of wrong practice, attachment to wrong practice and the related perversion of perception from life to life. But there it's hard for me to separate wrong view from wrong perception, so I'm just trying to get a sense of sanna itself in a more "trivial" setting like languages or maths. Best wishes pt #126810 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:46 pm Subject: Re: Can Unwholesome universals be without thought? ptaus1 Hi Alex, Not sure if anyone replied yet to your question yet. > A: At the moment when there are no thoughts, can there be unwholesome universal qualities? > > Can there be delusion, shamelessness, fearlessness of wrong, or restlessness without thinking? It would be good to define what you mean by "thoughts" for starters. Do you mean verbal thinking? If yes, then imo there certainly can be akusala even when there's no verbal thinking. Or maybe you mean some specific processes of cittas? Which ones? Best wishes pt #126811 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ...It all seemed a dream, very unreal. But we are dreaming all > day, anyway. The story: it was all very well executed, sober and > silent, no speeches, no music. It did not last long. > Walking to the grave behind the coffin. My old age: great trouble to > keep the pace since I am so slow. Sun shining and lots of beautiful > trees. > Now all the paper work, trying to understand taxes, sale of car, > insurance polis etc. More stories the coming days. What lies in store > for me? I just wanted to say that I appreciated your message, the understandings you are gaining and also the sadness and the stories. Your description of the funeral has a simple beauty and also sadness. I am glad you have your Dhamma friends to support your understanding, and also to remind you what an enormous support you are for everyone here. With affection and metta, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126812 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Rob E & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >>N: ...It all seemed a dream, very unreal. But we are dreaming all > > day, anyway. <..> >R: I just wanted to say that I appreciated your message, the understandings you are gaining and also the sadness and the stories. .... S: Scott wrote a very moving message before about the sadness he felt and attachment to his wife who had passed away: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/61932 Scott: >After the Dream: I wake up and I'm actually crying. I have a series of thoughts about the process of grief, interpreting elements of the dream to myself, and then focus on the deep sadness and think, while feeling it, what a very exquisite thing this sadness is. Scott:> I go downstairs and out on the verandah and sit on the steps, tears falling, totally caught up in the "exquisite sadness" and then the thought: "This is deep, deep clinging - this moment of exquisite sadness is a pristine moment of lobha-mula citta." The feeling shifts immediately upon this thought and seems rather intense and joyful as another thought arises: "Noticing the clinging is a moment of 'mahaa-kusula citta with pa~n~na,' there is no "forever," and there is no wife anymore, only that feeling which, in clinging to it as if it were my wife, comes to feel so 'exquisite.'" ***** The following are some of the comments I wrote in reply: S:> When we were last in Thailand with Nina and my mother also, the topic of sadness and the passing away of beloved ones came up. K. Sujin was making some comments about when there's understanding, one realizes such sadness is very common and has to arise by conditions. But it cannot last at all. Then she made a comment which struck me at the time: "It cannot last, even if you'd like to have it for a long time." >I thought, who'd like to have sadness for a long time? But as you suggest as well, there can be clinging even to the sadness, the unhappy feelings and the loss of the "beautiful pictures of beautiful people relating with one another" (as Ken H put it so eloquently). K.Sujin stressed that the common understanding we have about grief and sadness is not enough. It'll continue to go on and on arising, lifetime after lifetime, by conditions whilst ignorance hasn't been eradicated. She asked us: "when it's time for more sadness, then what? It just depends whether there's any understanding of it as a conditioned, impermanent dhamma or not". >And again, her wise comments: "Everyone clings to what one takes as real when (actually) it's not real, it's like a dream. We consider this life so very important, but it will be like a dream for the next life. So what about yesterday - happiness, enjoyment, clinging - they're gone, so it's like a dream. It seems so important, but actually it's not - it's only thinking about people and things. For the whole life, there (maybe) no understanding of realities at all, (and) not just one life, many, many lives. This is the path - the developing of understanding - otherwise, there are no conditions for right understanding at all because right understanding must be unexpectedly arising by conditions, pure conditions." >Azita asked what the conditions are for sadness and K.Sujin gave a simple answer: "Attachment." >Azita told me once that sometime after a big loss, she went down to the sea where she lives in Queensland, Australia and reflected on the following sutta about the tears we shed life after life in our grief: *** SN15:3 Tears (Assu Sutta), B. Bodhi transl: "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable - this or the water in the four great oceans?" ".......The stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable - this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans. For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a mother; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a father....brother...sister...son...daughter....the loss of relatives....the loss of wealth...loss through illness; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning...It is enough to experience revulsion towards all formations, enough to become dispassionate towards them, enough to be liberated from them." ***** Metta Sarah ===== #126813 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sprlrt Dear Han, I'm posting the original text from MN1 Atth.; and also Karunadasa translation and comments, as posted by connie a while ago. Alberto Han wrote: > Dear Alberto, > Could you kindly give me the full text of the simile about the teacher, the tree and two languages? ... MN 1a | pa.thamo bhaago 1. muulapariyaayavaggo 5. ana"nga.nasuttava.n.nanaa sammutiparamatthadesanaakathaava.n.nanaa buddhassa bhagavato duvidhaa desanaa sammutidesanaa, paramatthadesanaa caati. Tattha puggalo satto itthii puriso khattiyo braahma.no devo maaroti evaruupaa sammutidesanaa. anicca.m dukkha.m anattaa, khandhaa dhaatuu aayatanaani satipa.t.thaanaati evaruupaa paramatthadesanaa . tattha bhagavaa ye sammutivasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m pa.tivijjhitvaa moha.m pahaaya visesa.m adhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m sammutidesana.m deseti. Ye pana paramatthavasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m pa.tivijjhitvaa moha.m pahaaya visesamadhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m paramatthadesana.m deseti. Tatthaaya.m upamaa, yathaa hi desabhaasaakusalo ti.n.na.m vedaana.m atthasa.mva.n.nanako aacariyo ye dami.labhaasaaya vutte attha.m jaananti, tesa.m dami.labhaasaaya aacikkhati. Ye andhakabhaasaadiisu a~n~nataraaya, tesa.m taaya taaya bhaasaaya. Eva.m te maa.navakaa cheka.m byatta.m aacariyamaagamma khippameva sippa.m ugga.nhanti. Tattha aacariyo viya buddho bhagavaa. Tayo vedaa viya kathetabbabhaavena .thitaani tii.ni pi.takaani. Desabhaasaakosallamiva sammutiparamatthakosalla.m. Naanaadesabhaasaa maa.navakaa viya sammutiparamatthadesanaapa.tivijjhanasamatthaa veneyyasattaa. AAcariyassa dami.labhaasaadiaacikkhana.m viya bhagavato sammutiparamatthavasena desanaa veditabbaa. <:end> AAha cettha -- ``duve saccaani akkhaasi, sambuddho vadata.m varo. sammuti.m paramattha~nca, tatiya.m nuupalabbhati.. sa"nketavacana.m sacca.m, lokasammutikaara.naa. paramatthavacana.m sacca.m, dhammaana.m bhuutakaara.naa.. tasmaa vohaarakusalassa, lokanaathassa satthuno. sammuti.m voharantassa, musaavaado na jaayatii''ti.. (....) #95513, #95418, #95578, #95460, #95513, #95555, #95578 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:20 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear friends, Karunadasa continues: There is this simile on this matter. Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-katha. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths that the Buddha presents his teaching either by way of sammuti or by way of paramattha or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena.145 As shown from the above quotation, the penetration of the truth is possible by either teaching, the conventional or the ultimate, or by the combination of both. One method is not singled out as superior or inferior to the other. It is like using the dialect that a person readily understands, and there is no implication that one dialect is either superior or inferior to another. What is more, as the commentary to the Anguttara Nikaya states specifically, whether the Buddhas preach the doctrine according to sammuti or paramattha, they teach only what is true, only what accords with actuality, without involving themselves in what is not true (amusa'va).146 The statement: "The person exists" (= sammuti-sacca) is not erroneous, provided one does not imagine by the person a substance enduring in time. Convention requires the use of such terms, but as long as one does not imagine substantial entities corresponding to them, such statements are valid.147 On the other hand, as the commentators observe, if for the sake of conforming to the ultimate truth one would say, "The five aggregates eat" (khandha bhunjanti), "The five aggregates walk" (khandha gacchanti), instead of saying: "A person eats," "A person walks," such a situation would result in what is called voharabheda, i.e. a breach of convention resulting in a breakdown in meaningful communication.148 notes: 145. A I 54-55; DA I 251-52; SA II 77. 146. DA I 251. 147. See Jayatilleke, p.365. 148. SA I 51. ...to be continued, connie #126814 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "aungsoeminuk" wrote: > Thanks for your message and invitation for input. The problem is that I prefer Paa.li for some important Paa.li words while DSG use simple English. Time is another factor that limits me to appear. Anyway I am coming again. ... S: Please feel free to use Pali for important Pali words. Others can help give English terms and for anyone, easy to print out the glossary in the DSG files or have links to dictionaries such as the Nyantiloka or Buddhadassa ones handy. Metta Sarah ===== #126815 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Alberto and Connie, Thank you very much. I could also locate the Paa.li text of the A.t.thakathaa. But without the English translation posted by Connie, I will not understand it. I will wait for further messages from Connie. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 9/30/12, sprlrt@... wrote: Dear Han, I'm posting the original text from MN1 Atth.; and also Karunadasa translation and comments, as posted by connie a while ago. Alberto #126816 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) ptaus1 Hi Han, Alberto and all, > I could also locate the Paa.li text of the A.t.thakathaa. But without the English translation posted by Connie, I will not understand it. > I will wait for further messages from Connie. If it helps, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the MN 1 commentary is available online for free on Google books: books.google.com.au/books?id=Mia6JAaSb0AC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=fals\ e Also here: http://www.mnbv.org/books/Reading7.html Best wishes pt #126817 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:25 pm Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) ptaus1 Hi all, > If it helps, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the MN 1 commentary is available online for free on Google books: Here's that link once again in an easier format: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Mia6JAaSb0AC&printsec=frontcover Also added to the Link section here on dsg as "The discourse on the Root of Existence". Best wishes pt #126818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Rob E, and Sarah, You really encourage me, Rob. Sarah, very good quotes, also what Scott realized: sadness condiitoned by clinging, I put your quotes of Kh Sujin in my file Consolations. Nina. Op 30-sep-2012, om 7:59 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I am glad you have your Dhamma friends to support your > understanding, and also to remind you what an enormous support you > are for everyone here. #126819 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:23 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (20) (lobha) philofillet Dear Group Pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "We do not like it when the citta is annoyed, disturbed, restless, sad or anxious. We like it when the citta is happy, when it is fully of joy and when it is infatuated with pleasant objects. However, when the citta is joyful, when it is happy and absorbed in pleasure, the citta is not pure, because it is accompanied by the cetasika that is attachment, lobha cetasika. Lobha is the dhamma that takes pleasure in an object, which clings to it, and is absorbed in it." (57) (end of passage) ph: Lobha is really prevalent. The first cittas after the rebirth citta has fallen away are invariably rooted in lobha. Nina has explained to me several times why that is, but I always forget.... Phil #126820 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear pt (Alberto, Connie). What I am looking at currently is the A.t.thakathaa of MN 5 Ananga.na sutta, which Connie had posted. Is the English translation of Muulapariyaayavagga A.t.thakathaa (for MN 1 to MN 10) available on-line? The Discourse on the Root of Existence (MN 1), that you have kindly posted, is also very useful, and I am very grateful to you for that. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 9/30/12, ptaus1 wrote: Hi all, > If it helps, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the MN 1 commentary is available online for free on Google books: Here's that link once again in an easier format: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Mia6JAaSb0AC&printsec=frontcover Also added to the Link section here on dsg as "The discourse on the Root of Existence". Best wishes pt #126821 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) ptaus1 Hi Han and all, > Is the English translation of Muulapariyaayavagga A.t.thakathaa (for MN 1 to MN 10) available on-line? Not in its entirety, as far as I'm aware of. Aside from commentary to MN 1 online, I only know of a part to MN 4 commentary here: http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh076-u.html Perhaps someone else knows about other parts. Best wishes pt #126822 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:46 pm Subject: Ruparupa vibhaga by Buddhadatta ptaus1 Hi all, Anyone knows if Buddhadatta's manuals are online? Pali and English? I'm particularly interested in Ruupaaruupa vibhaaga. I only know of a russian translation so far: http://lit.lib.ru/i/irhin_w_j/buddhadatta.shtml As far as I can tell, PTS published it in Pali as Buddhadata's Manuals, and the translation of Ruupaaruupavibhaaga is available in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XVI, pp. 1-12, as well as Maha Bodhi Journal, Centenary Volume (Calcutta, 1992). Best wishes pt #126823 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear pt, Thank you very much. It is also very useful. I really appreciate it. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 9/30/12, ptaus1 wrote: Hi Han and all, > Is the English translation of Muulapariyaayavagga A.t.thakathaa (for MN 1 to MN 10) available on-line? Not in its entirety, as far as I'm aware of. Aside from commentary to MN 1 online, I only know of a part to MN 4 commentary here: http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh076-u.html Perhaps someone else knows about other parts. Best wishes pt #126824 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:40 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 3 The Development of Calm Our life is full of attachment, aversion and ignorance. When we do not apply ourselves to kusala through body, speech or mind, we act, speak or think with akusala cittas. Dåna and síla are opportunities to have kusala citta instead of akusala citta, but there are not always conditions for these ways of kusala. Mental development, bhåvanå, is a way of kusala that can be performed also at those moments when there is no opportunity for dåna or síla. There are two ways of mental development: samatha or the development of calm and vipassanå or the development of insight. Through samatha the calm that is temporary freedom from lobha, dosa and moha is developed; lobha, dosa and moha cannot be eradicated through samatha. The calm which is developed in samatha is different from what we mean by calm in conventional language. The calm developed in samatha can arise only with sobhana citta (beautiful citta). When we say in daily language that we are calm, we only think of a concept of calm and we do not realize whether the citta is kusala citta or akusala citta. There is calm with every kusala citta. When true generosity arises there is calm with the citta, because at that moment there are no lobha, dosa and moha. When we abstain from ill deeds there is calm with the kusala citta. However, the moments of kusala citta are very rare and soon after they have fallen away akusala cittas arise; cittas with attachment, conceit or aversion may arise. Since kusala cittas are so rare and akusala cittas arise very shortly after the kusala cittas have fallen away, it is difficult to know exactly when there is kusala citta and when there is akusala citta. Only paññå can know this precisely. Dåna and síla may or may not arise with right understanding, but there cannot be any form of mental development, bhåvanå, without right understanding. The calm of samatha that is temporary freedom from defilements cannot be developed without paññå. The paññå of samatha must be able to discern the characteristic of calm when it arises, otherwise calm cannot grow. The paññå of samatha knows kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, but it is different from the paññå of vipassanå since it does not realize kusala and akusala as not self. The concept of self is not eradicated through samatha. ------- Nina. #126825 From: Vince Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. cerovzt Dear Nina sorry to read of Lodewijk's passing on. with metta, Vince. #126826 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 30-sep-2012, om 15:50 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > sorry to read of Lodewijk's passing on. ----- N: Thank you. I often thought of your reminder that your girlfriend who looks after terminally ill people said that it is important to be very calm. I was so busy that I had no time to worry much or think much. Nina. #126827 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 12:50 am Subject: The Perfections. nilovg Dear friends, I just listened to Lodewijk reciting the text of the Perfections with so much conviction: < The ascetic Akitti was heedful, he did not even want to see what could be a danger to him. We can learn a lesson from this story, we should consider the perfections with regard to our own life. We have a long way to go in order to attain the realization of the four noble Truths and the eradication of defilements. If we do not understand what the perfections really are, we do not have the firm determination to study the Dhamma in order to have right understanding, to apply the Dhamma and to practise it with sincerity, which is the perfection of truthfulness. We should study and practise without being disturbed by the worldly conditions of gain, loss, honour, dishonour, praise, blame, happiness and misery. If we are unshakable by these worldly conditions, we are beginning to develop the perfections so that they become more firmly established. If we consider the perfections developed by the Buddha life after life, as related in the “Basket of Conduct”, we can see that our own development of the perfections is still very insignificant compared to his development, there is an immense difference. Therefore, we should continue further to develop all the perfections. We should not have expectations with regard to right understanding of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away very rapidly at this moment. The truth cannot be realized immediately, but understanding must be developed very gradually during an endlessly long time. > -------- This helps to have patience when we notice that right understanding develops so slowly. Nina. #126828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 3:37 am Subject: about extending merit by Acharn and friends in Thailand. nilovg Dear Sarah and friends, I frwd Khun Unnop's letter: ---------- Nina. #126829 From: "philofillet" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 5:03 am Subject: Re: The Perfections. philofillet Hi Nina You know how much I love hearing Lodewijk reading Perfections. I have lustened to it in its entirety 4 or 5 times, I think. I also like during several discussions when he insists on valuing people, on metta, I think he resists at times the idea of reducing people to dhammas, I think he was so commited to the welfare if peopke. I'm sure you had some very spirited duscussions about that. I would live to have audio of that, even if I couldn't understand the Dutch the way the cittas with conviction express as physical intimation in the voice ( as when Lodewijk reads Perfections) woyld be great. I always remember your anecdote of you and Lidewijk dining out at a nice restaurant and duscussing foulness of the body or foulness of eating as the waiters milled around. I am sure many many memories of your Dhamma discussions together will continue to encourage you. I adore Naomi but we gave never been able to share Dhamma, there are simply not conditions for all couples to be able to do so, it is a rare blessing for a few. By the way, what is the difference between developing perfections and developing kusala? Is it the emphasis on many lifetimes? I think I will listen again to share Lodewijk's kusala. Phil #126830 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception kenhowardau Hi Pt, ---- <. . .> Pt: I was more wondering about the reason for being good at something now, rather than remembering things from past life - like if you are good at languages, there's certainly no memory of you learning a language in a past life, but yet, there's this ability to learn a language quickly, have a good grasp of the grammar, etc. What's that ability based on and how much would it have to do with accumulations in sanna? ---- KH: I suspect it comes down to physical health, and therefore to good or bad vipakka. Just as a healthy eye-base rupa can be the basis of keen eyesight, a healthy mind-base rupa can be the basis of a keen mind – including powerful memory. ------------ > Pt: I realise it might be more dhamma-related if we were to pose the question in terms of wrong practice, attachment to wrong practice and the related perversion of perception from life to life. But there it's hard for me to separate wrong view from wrong perception, so I'm just trying to get a sense of sanna itself in a more "trivial" setting like languages or maths. ------------ KH: I'm obviously not seeing it the same way you are. According to my understanding sanna would be entirely separate from panna and micha-ditthi. So a person with wisdom could have a poor memory, just as much he could have poor eyesight. Ken H #126831 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 2:46 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi KenH, > KH: I suspect it comes down to physical health, and therefore to good or bad vipakka. Just as a healthy eye-base rupa can be the basis of keen eyesight, a healthy mind-base rupa can be the basis of a keen mind – including powerful memory. p: That sounds interesting. Just to check - mind-base is in fact heart-base, is that right? I haven't really considered before that heart-base could be unhealthy, just like the other bases. > KH: I'm obviously not seeing it the same way you are. According to my understanding sanna would be entirely separate from panna and micha-ditthi. So a person with wisdom could have a poor memory, just as much he could have poor eyesight. p: No argument there. What I was trying to say was that I myself don't really understand the difference between sanna and ditthi/panna very well, even in theory. Hence, I'm examining only sanna in more trivial/conventional settings for now so as not to confuse myself further. Best wishes pt #126832 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 3:04 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi Alberto and Sarah, Thanks for posting these excerpts again (and thanks to Nina for writing them). It did clear up a few issues, and I particularly found the following interesting: > Text Vis.: Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. > N: Sa~n~naa marks the object so that it can be recognized later on. Just as carpenters make a sign on timber so that they can recognize it later on. They see that 'this is the same' (tadeva.m ti). The Tiika states that making a mark or label is the condition for perceiving the object again, for remembering or recognizing it. Every sa~n~naa should be interpreted in a similar way. p: If making a mark is the condition for perceiving that object again, then to me it seems it is the marks that accumulate? I mean it seems it's saying that mark is the condition. > Text Vis: It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant (Ud. 68-69). > Text Vis: Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men. p: What is "an objective field"? Is that sort of like the plane of rebirth? > N: The Tiika adds to the proximate cause, 'an object in whatever way that appears', that this is without thinking or consideration (avikappa). Thus, sa~n~naa performs its task of remembering or recognition without thinking about about the object that appears. Just as the fauns that see scarecrows as men. p: So, when something is perceived right now - it is in fact marked right now? Is that right? Further, it is marked now, but it has also been marked before in the past, otherwise there would be no conditions for perceiving it now as 'this is the same'? Best wishes pt #126833 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 3:14 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi Sarah, > S: The sanna accumulates, not the concepts, but it is the marking and remembering of particular signs, particular concepts now which leads to mark and remembering the same later. >... > S: Only javana cittas and cetasikas accumulate. The "marks", the signs are thought about. Just as the carpenter marks the different trees so that they can be found or remembered later, so sanna marks tastes, visible objects, sounds or concepts so that there will be the recalling of them later, depending on so many factors. This is how we can type or read or learn a language. p: Could you please say a bit more about marks. I.e. in the Vs. excerpts Alberto posted, it said that recollecting happens without thinking. So, I'm still unsure of what marks are - they are not concepts, they are not sanna exactly, but they are thought about (via concepts) and recollected (via sanna). Best wishes pt #126834 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 3:20 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Sarah, > S: Right, moha with doubt is eradicated first. Even an anagami has not eradicated moha, but certainly no doubt at all, not even for a sotapanna. Only three roots, but 12 kinds of akusala cittas, seven latent tendencies etc. So it's referring to the kinds of akusala cittas or the latent tendencies that are eradicated. As you say, moha and lobha only eradicated completely by the arahat and dosa by the anagami. > ... > > pt: So, I guess then the only point of triplet 9 is to draw attention to the fact that the fetters have roots? > ... > S: Before the text was talking about dhammas in general, now it's specifically talking about dhammas with roots. > ... > > What do you think? Thanks, I think I understand this now a bit. I do like the interpretation that those akusala dhammas (fetters) are eradicated, but so are the certain kinds of moha, lobha and dosa. E.g. sotapanna eradicates the three fetters, as well as the kinds of moha that correspond with those three fetters. But other kinds of moha remain to be eradicated by higher paths. Best wishes pt #126835 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 3:34 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (Ch IV-XII) about forty subjects of meditation which can condition calm, but they can condition calm only if there is right understanding which knows how to develop calm by means of a particular meditation subject. A meditation subject does not necessarily bring calm, it depends on the citta which develops calm, and the citta has to be accompanied by paññå. Bhante Dhammadharo said: ”When we bring in here a pile of bones it does not guarantee calm for those who are looking at it.” Some people have aversion immediately when they are looking at a corpse and they cannot become calm with this subject. One may think that when one concentrates on one point there are conditions for the arising of calm. However, we should not forget that concentration (samådhi) accompanies each citta. The function of this cetasika is to cause the citta to focus on one object. Thus, there is concentration with akusala citta as well as with kusala citta. If one does not know precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta, how can one be sure whether there is right concentration? One may, with attachment, exert a great effort to concentrate, or, if one needs such effort to concentrate, one can easily have aversion. Do we know when there are akusala cittas? If we do not know this, calm cannot be developed. For the development of calm paññå is indispensable. During the discussions in Sri Lanka we found out that we need to consider more whether the citta at this moment is kusala citta or akusala citta so that we can begin to understand the characteristic of calm that is freedom from akusala. Do we realize the amount of clinging we have? We may know when there is strong clinging, for example, when we are greedy and badly want to have particular things, but do we know the moments when there is more subtle clinging? Bhante Dhammadharo helped us to find out more about the different degrees of our clinging and he asked us whether we truly believe that clinging is harmful. I found that although I have read the scriptures and pondered over them, I have not considered them enough in my daily life. We listen and ponder over what we have heard, but during this journey we found out that we had not considered enough the Dhamma we had heard. --------- Nina. #126836 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 4:38 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >There is a story about a Tibetan teacher who always told his students that the people they were attached to were illusory. When his own son died, he cried and grieved, and his students were angry. Why are you so griefstricken if your son was an illusion? The teacher replied: "I know he was an illusion, but he was such a beautiful illusion, I can't help but grieve." ... S: Yes, I think the point is that it's better to have heard the truth and to have some understanding about realities vs concepts. This doesn't mean there won't be lots of attachment, grief and ignorance for a long time to come. Thinking it should be otherwise would be wrong understanding of what we've heard. Metta Sarah ==== #126837 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Thanks, I think I understand this now a bit. I do like the interpretation that those akusala dhammas (fetters) are eradicated, but so are the certain kinds of moha, lobha and dosa. E.g. sotapanna eradicates the three fetters, as well as the kinds of moha that correspond with those three fetters. But other kinds of moha remain to be eradicated by higher paths. ... S: Yes, exactly. In summary, as quoted recently by Han: >There are ten Sa.myojanas. Abandoned by Sotaapanna (1) ditthisa.myojana (2) vicikicchasa.myojana (3) siilabbataparaamaa sasa.myojana (4) issaasa.myojana (5) macchariyasa.myojana Abandoned by Anaagaami (6) kaamaraagasa.myojana (7) pa.tighasa.myojana Abandoned by Arahant (8) bhavaraagasa.myojana (9) maanasa.myojana (10) avijjaasa.myojana **** >There are seven Anusayas. Abandoned by Sotaapanna (1) di.t.thaanusaya (2) vicikicchaanusaya Abandoned by Anaagaami (3) kaamaraagaanusaya (4) pa.tighaanusaya Abandoned by Arahant (5) bhavaraagaanusaya (6) maanaanusaya (7) avijjaanusaya ***** Metta Sarah ===== #126838 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 5:32 pm Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (8) (b) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > In my last post, I had mentioned that I am interested in the underlying tendency to lust that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling; the underlying tendency to aversion that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling; and the underlying tendency to ignorance that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. ... S: Earlier you quoted: >[25] "Sabbaaya nu kho, ayye, sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sabbaaya sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, na sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, na sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. [25] 26. "Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust (raga-anusayo) underlie all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion (pa.tigha-anusayo) underlie all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance (avijja-anusayo) underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling." **** S: Perhaps we can just point out that the various anusayas only underlie the cittas until eradicated. For example, an anagami and arahat experiences pleasant feeling, but no more raga anusaya underlying any cittas. They also experience unpleasant bodily feeling, but no more pa.tigha anusaya, likewise the arahat experiences neutral feeling, but no more avijja anusaya. You've added a lot more detail, I know. Metta Sarah ==== #126839 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, some unanswered emails - trying to get up to date before the next trip on Wed! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > S:Yes, let's move on to some of those sutta interpretations. As you always say, have to come back to the present realities. "Just like now!" > --- > > KH: (Hoping I fixed your typo correctly) ... S: Those sutta interpretations have to come back to the present realities and so do "we":-) >Those interpretations begin with anatta. Therefore, looking at the sutta about the blind monk and the caterpillars we firstly remember there were no monks in this story, blind or otherwise, nor were there any caterpillars. No one trod on anything. > > With that beginners understanding we can't go far wrong. We just try to see how the story could possibly apply to the world of paramattha dhammas. There are no wrong answers; everyone gets a pass. :-) ... S: yes, only paramattha dhammas whatever we read about. That still doesn't mean you get a pass for your suggestion that the blind monk must have been an ariyan and so on which missed the point as being about kusala and akusala cittas, even now, as ignorant worldliness, most the time no intention to harm when we set out on the path:-) ... > > S: Only about paramattha dhammas, but just depends on the reader/listener as to whether this is understood. > ------------ > > KH: Yes, as reader/listeners we must always be aware there are *only* paramattha dhammas. If we are not careful we will fall into the trap of thinking (albeit subconsciously) that there are two worlds – parramattha and pannatti. > > There is only the paramattha. ... S: All agreed. ... > ----------------------- > <. . .> > > S: Her reply: "What do they mean by 'method'? And: 'If we don't fix a time, how can we have a discussion?':-)) > ----------------------- > > KH: As I understand her question it is: given there are no people and no things to do, in what way can there be a method? One answer off the top of my head is: any reality that has arisen now, in the present moment, has done so dependent on conditions (without control). Just as, in the world of concepts, a meeting depends the method of setting a time etc., so too a conditioned dhamma arises by method of other conditioned dhammas. > > Maybe not exactly a `method' (maybe not exactly answering the question) but, in my school, close enough! :-) ... S: Yes, that passes. Only conditioned dhammas so any idea of "doing" something to change the present reality or any "doer" involved at all is a fail:-) I think we can drop the caterpillar now - mostly just a lot of delirious thinking! Metta Sarah ==== #126840 From: "egberdina" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 6:51 pm Subject: With the passing of time egberdina Hi all, If anything has become clearer to me over time, it is this: Nama is concept Rupa is concept Nama/Rupa is real. In other words, reality is irreducibly complex, and therefore any "understanding" of component realities is no understanding at all. In these last few years I've also experimented enough with alkaloids like DMT and 5MeO-DMT to realise that all descriptions of every realm in the Pali Canon are entirely possible, except, of course, for those that purport to describe namas as namas and rupas as rupas. Cheers Herman #126841 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (8) (b) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Perhaps we can just point out that the various anusayas only underlie the cittas until eradicated. For example, an anagami and arahat experiences pleasant feeling, but no more raga anusaya underlying any cittas. They also experience unpleasant bodily feeling, but no more pa.tigha anusaya, likewise the arahat experiences neutral feeling, but no more avijja anusaya. Han: Thank you very much for your very useful points. I have noted with gratitude. I know you and Nina had written a lot about Latent Tendencies. It is still a very difficult subject for me. with metta and respect, Han --- On Mon, 10/1/12, sarah wrote: S: Perhaps we can just point out that the various anusayas only underlie the cittas until eradicated. For example, an anagami and arahat experiences pleasant feeling, but no more raga anusaya underlying any cittas. They also experience unpleasant bodily feeling, but no more pa.tigha anusaya, likewise the arahat experiences neutral feeling, but no more avijja anusaya. You've added a lot more detail, I know. Metta Sarah ==== #126842 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 8:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, #126251 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > I think I am starting to understand about intimation being a rupa, though it seems at first it should be a mental factor. I have looked up intimation both in its dictionary meaning and in context of Chapter 6 of "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena" which I found online, and goes into some detail. > > http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/the-buddhist-teaching-on-physical-phenome\ na/d/doc2660.html > > It seems that intimation is the subtle physical indication of the intention or volition "to communicate or do" that is carried by the rupas that are visible or tactile, etc.; and that the intimation is not itself visible as intimation, but must be discerned in the mind door. So if it is discerned by mind and is not visible, what kind of rupa is it? I would have thought it was a mental factor. .... S: Apart from 7 "gross" rupas experienced through the sense doors (i.e visible object, sound, odor, taste, solidity, temperature and motion), any other rupas can only be experienced through the mind door. Some of these are "sabhava" which have their own characteristics which can be discerned, while others are "asabhava" which means they don't arise directly from the primary rupas but are attributes or dependent on other rupas, such as space which separates kalapas of rupas and depends on those kalapas. The two intimation rupas are also asabhava rupas, dependent on the air element for bodily intimation and the earth element for speech intimation. They are not readily apparent at all. Very subtle rupas. ... > > ...along with other rupas conditioned by those cittas make up what we call 'speech'. > > So speech = the intimation rupa + the other rupas conditioned by the cittas involved. ... S: Yes, exactly. There is a decad, a kalapa of ten rupas which make up the speech intimation group or rupas. This includes the 8 inseparable rupas which always arise with every kalapa, (i.e. the four primary rupas - solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, plus colour, taste, odour and nutriment. In addition in this decad, there must be speech intimation and sound. This group of rupas is always produced by citta. ... > > So it is akusala kamma carried out by way of the speech door. > > So here, if akusala kamma is "carried out" through the speech door, what is the significance for the kamma of being "carried out." It seems again that the being physically "carried out" via the rupas involved is a question of physical expression rather than the cetana that conditioned those rupas; therefore the physical expression itself should not change the kamma. However it is not complete without such physical expression. Still confused... .... S: The kamma is the cetana accompanying the citta. When there is harsh speech, for example, the citta conditions the speech intimation group or rupas (numerous times, of course) and the meaning is conveyed. ... > > > By the speech door, it is this speech intimation, the physical indicator of the intended meaning, that is meant. > > Ah, this sounds like a very special rupa. It is not directly discernible, but carries or indicates the meaning of the cetana that is carried by the speech rupas, and yet is itself discernible in the mind door of the recipient of the speech. .... S: As far as the listener is concerned, only sounds are heard. These sounds leave nimitta or signs which are interpreted as speech. If we try to 'work it out' too much, we forget about what appears now, what can be known now when sound is heard. Please feel free to raise your other qus in the post again, but I think this is enough for now. Metta Sarah ===== #126843 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 8:22 pm Subject: Re: With the passing of time sarahprocter... Hi Herman, Is there seeing now? Is it real? Is there thinking about what is seen? Is it real? Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "egberdina" wrote: > If anything has become clearer to me over time, it is this: > > Nama is concept > Rupa is concept > > Nama/Rupa is real. #126844 From: Herman Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: With the passing of time egberdina Hi Sarah, Seeing and the seen are inseparable. They always occur together, never without each other. A reference to seeing without what is seen is conceptual, and so is referring to the seen without also implying seeing. Is there unseen blue? or pink as it may be in your case :-) ? Cheers Herman On 1 October 2012 20:22, sarah wrote: > ** > > > Hi Herman, > > Is there seeing now? Is it real? Is there thinking about what is seen? Is > it real? > > Metta > > Sarah > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "egberdina" > wrote: > > > If anything has become clearer to me over time, it is this: > > > > Nama is concept > > Rupa is concept > > > > Nama/Rupa is real. > > > #126845 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] With the passing of time upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 10/1/2012 4:52:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi all, If anything has become clearer to me over time, it is this: Nama is concept Rupa is concept Nama/Rupa is real. In other words, reality is irreducibly complex, and therefore any "understanding" of component realities is no understanding at all. In these last few years I've also experimented enough with alkaloids like DMT and 5MeO-DMT to realise that all descriptions of every realm in the Pali Canon are entirely possible, except, of course, for those that purport to describe namas as namas and rupas as rupas. Cheers Herman ============================= It's good to hear from you! No doubt you've had some interesting experiences, though I suspect that what is "real" and what is "unreal" is not something we should be very certain about. In any case, I do hope you will be careful as to what and how much of psychoactive substances you ingest. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126846 From: "azita" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 10:07 pm Subject: Re: about extending merit by Acharn and friends in Thailand. gazita2002 Hallo Nina, We also honoured Lodewijk at the end of our English dhamma session on Sat afternoon. I hope you are ok Nina. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > I frwd Khun Unnop's letter: > > > Acharn, Khun Duangduen and our friends know about him. We uthit saun > kuson for him both Saturday and Sunday after dhamma discussions. He > was very kind,I remember.I think of him and his good deeds ,kusala > kammas for many times. > > I hope you can take care your self and spend more time on learning > dhamma.> > > ---------- > Nina. > #126847 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 10:10 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: about extending merit by Acharn and friends in Thailand. dhammasaro ditto in the Philly Area, USA To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: gazita2002@... Hallo Nina, We also honoured Lodewijk at the end of our English dhamma session on Sat afternoon. I hope you are ok Nina. patience, courage and good cheer azita <...> #126848 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 11:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: With the passing of time sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > Seeing and the seen are inseparable. They always occur together, never > without each other. ... S: True, but this is thinking about them. When the reality of visible object appears, there's no thought or concern about seeing, just the reality which is seen is experienced and can be directly known. The same applies to the reality of seeing. Just that which sees - no visible object or anything else appears at that moment. ... > > A reference to seeing without what is seen is conceptual, and so is > referring to the seen without also implying seeing. ... S: You're talking about logic and I'm talking about the reality that can be known now. ... > > Is there unseen blue? or pink as it may be in your case :-) ? ... S: As it happens, we just popped out to watch some extraordinary fireworks for Chinese National Day over Victoria Harbour, Hong Kong. Seemed to be lots of blue and pink and even more red. Really? Actually, just visible object followed by lots and lots of thinking. Sanna and vitakka busy at work as usual, lots of attending to the signs and details, but from time to time, the conjurer's trick is seen through and the illusion that anything other than visible object is seen becomes a little more apparent. Yes, all seen by seeing, but only one reality can appear and be known at a time. Metta Sarah ===== #126849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: about extending merit by Acharn and friends in Thailand. nilovg Dear Azita, I appreciate this very much. Anumodana, Nina Op 1-okt-2012, om 14:07 heeft azita het volgende geschreven: > We also honoured Lodewijk at the end of our English dhamma session > on Sat afternoon. > I hope you are ok Nina. #126850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: about extending merit by Acharn and friends in Thailand. nilovg Dear Chuck, thanks. Nina. Op 1-okt-2012, om 14:10 heeft Maipenrai Dhammasaro het volgende geschreven: > ditto in the Philly Area, USA #126851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Poland 8, life is like a dream. nilovg Dear friends, Poland 8: life is like a dream. Where is that thing you like very much, where is the one you like very much? Completely gone, nothing left. Not only that person is gone, even you or oneself is now from moment to moment and never comes back. But attachment is there and it is very deeply rooted, no one can dig it out or destroy it. Only pa~n~naa which knows reality to the degree of the anagaami. I don’t believe that you think of someone all day, all night, but there are times that you do not think of that person, by conditions. Any time one thinks about anything, if there is no memory, no such feeling about that story, there will not be conditions for such thinking again. That which arises is completely gone and there is clinging to what is gone as if it is there, not gone yet. So it is like a dream. That is why one can understand that life is like a dream. There is clinging all the time to that which has gone. **** Nina. #126852 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 9:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ----------- > S: some unanswered emails - trying to get up to date before the next trip on Wed! ------------ KH: Thanks for your answer. I think we have both said what we wanted to say, I am just not ready to give you the last word. :-) ------ >> KH: <. . .> There are no wrong answers; everyone gets a pass. :-) > S: yes, only paramattha dhammas whatever we read about. That still doesn't mean you get a pass for your suggestion that the blind monk must have been an ariyan ------- KH: I haven't been able to trace this thread back to the offending post; the trail seems to stop at 125038. But I certainly shouldn't have said the monk *must* have been an ariyan. I should have said that was a possibility. It was a possible interpretation that an amateur sutta-interpreter might reasonably make (in the absence of evidence to the contrary). -------------- > S: and so on which missed the point as being about kusala and akusala cittas, even now, as ignorant worldliness, most the time no intention to harm when we set out on the path:-) --------------- KH: Very droll! :-) Once the point about kusala and akusala cittas has been taken, can't we look for other meanings? The 8fold path is the *only* way leading to the destruction of taints, isn't it? Anyone can have kusala cittas, anyone can be innocent when the evidence against him looks bad, but only a traveller on the path has entirely lost the ability to kill. A traveller on the path is *inherently* innocent of akusala kamma patha, and there is no need to examine any purported evidence against him. What harm is done if a reader derives that message (the uniqueness of the Path) from this sutta? ------------------------ <. . .> > S: I think we can drop the caterpillar now - mostly just a lot of delirious thinking! ------------------------- KH: Certainly! Sorry for insisting on the last delirious word. :-) Ken H #126853 From: Tam Bach Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 9:41 am Subject: Hello-intro tambach Dear all members, My name is Tam and I am from Vietnam. I have found the way to DSG thanks to... the internet where I read Rob K's posts on Dhamma Wheel about Achaan Sujin's teaching. I was immediately attracted by the radical way she talked about anatta (via Rob K's posts), but it took a while before conditions were ripe for me to meet her at the Dhamma Studies Foundation in Bangkok in early 2010. I attended the 2 hours discussions lead by Achaan, and was greatly impressed by the quality of the discussion and interventions, from Achaan as well as from her students present there. By quality, I mean the establishment of right view with regard to the present moment. And it was there that I met Sarah and Jonathan too, who gave me the link to the DSG's website. Since then I started to listen to the audio Dhamma discussions on the website and have often been struck by the depth of the explanations...I have shared this teaching with some Dhamma friends and they too have been benefiting much from it. The Buddha's Dhamma is deep, but even the very little right understanding of it can put our whole life on a different plane, and we feel most thankful to Achaan Khujin for tirelessly explaining the right Path, since it is much easier to go the wrong ones and/or off from the Middle Way. I am so glad to have come across this precious teaching (a big sadhu to Rob K, Nina, Jonathan, Sarah and all!), and hope the conditions will continue to allow me to develop more understanding this way, learning more from Achaan and from you all! I don't know to what extent I will be able to contribute...it is likely that i will disappear like Betty after the introduction :-), because I am totally unsure of being able to access the site once I'm back to Vietnam. but if I can receive all the messages through e-mails, it's already good enough. Thanks for being our good friends in the Dhamma! Best wishes on the Path and metta to all! Tam Life is Meditation is Life http://www.thienvacuocsong.info/ http://www.trungtamhotong.org/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ http://www.buddhanet.net/ http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ http://sayadawutejaniya.org/teachings/ #126854 From: Herman Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] With the passing of time egberdina Hi Howard, On 1 October 2012 21:53, wrote: > ** > It's good to hear from you! No doubt you've had some interesting > experiences, though I suspect that what is "real" and what is "unreal" is > not > something we should be very certain about. > I acknowledge that I do not know what I do not know :-) Having said that, I do not doubt that whatever was experienced was experienced, only the possible explanations for it, > In any case, I do hope you will be > careful as to what and how much of psychoactive substances you ingest. > > Your words of caution are well-founded, and I appreciate them. Cheers Herman > With metta, > Howard > > > Seamless Interdependence > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > > > > > #126855 From: Kanchana Chuathong Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello-intro kchuathong Dear Tam,  My name is Kanchana and I am going to join the Dhamma discussion in Vietnam with Acharn Sujin and others in 4 - 14 Nov. 2012. Nice to see you soon.  with metta, Kanchana. ________________________________ From: Tam Bach <...> My name is Tam and I am from Vietnam. I have found the way to DSG thanks to... the internet where I read Rob K's posts on Dhamma Wheel about Achaan Sujin's teaching. <...> #126856 From: Herman Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: With the passing of time egberdina Hi Sarah, On 1 October 2012 23:51, sarahprocterabbott wrote: > ** > > > Hi Herman, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > Seeing and the seen are inseparable. They always occur together, never > > without each other. > ... > S: True, but this is thinking about them. When the reality of visible > object appears, there's no thought or concern about seeing, just the > reality which is seen is experienced and can be directly known. The same > applies to the reality of seeing. Just that which sees - no visible object > or anything else appears at that moment. > I have no experience of seeing in the absence of visible object. I wonder what quality makes it seeing, rather than say, hearing, or feeling? On that note, my understanding re objectless consciousness has changed dramatically. In the past I would have denied it as impossible, now that I have experienced it, albeit under the influence of 5MeO-DMT, I know better. > ... > > > > > A reference to seeing without what is seen is conceptual, and so is > > referring to the seen without also implying seeing. > ... > S: You're talking about logic and I'm talking about the reality that can > be known now. > ... > > I'm talking about the logic of dependent origination, in that: "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' DN15 > > > > Is there unseen blue? or pink as it may be in your case :-) ? > ... > S: As it happens, we just popped out to watch some extraordinary fireworks > for Chinese National Day over Victoria Harbour, Hong Kong. Seemed to be > lots of blue and pink and even more red. Really? Actually, just visible > object followed by lots and lots of thinking. Sanna and vitakka busy at > work as usual, lots of attending to the signs and details, but from time to > time, the conjurer's trick is seen through and the illusion that anything > other than visible object is seen becomes a little more apparent. > > Yes, all seen by seeing, but only one reality can appear and be known at a > time. > If that is your experience, I'll take your word for it. When there is pink, red, blue or whatever, I do not doubt that is what is there. What I doubt is that I'm seeing something that exists "out there", in and by itself. > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > > Cheers > Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126857 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 4:11 pm Subject: MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta is an interesting sutta, and I am sure there have been discussions many times in various forums. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his introduction to this sutta, wrote: "The Buddha defines the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path and explains their inter-relationships." The Buddha emphasizes the right view as the factor that comes first because it makes it possible to distinguish between the "right" and "wrong" version of each of the path factors. The Buddha also emphasizes that there are two kinds of path factors: one affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment; and the one that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path. In other words, there are lokiya path factors and lokuttara path factors. The Buddha also teaches us the linear approach of the eightfold path, with each factor being the condition for the arising of the next, as mentioned in paragraph 34 of the sutta. And we see that two further factors are added to the traditional eightfold path that arise when a person is fully Awakened; anyone short of the full Awakening of an arahant has an eightfold path, and arahants have a tenfold path. The Buddha also says that right view, right effort, and right mindfulness run and circle around each path factor (anuparidhaavanti anuparivattanti, seyyathida.m, sammaadi.t.thi sammaavaayaamo sammaasati). I am particularly interested in sati and viriya out of the three dhammas. I am now thinking that our Burmese Elders might have got their favourite advice from these two dhammas of sati-viriya. When I was young, our Elders warned us to have "sati-viriya" all the time. When we go to sleep we have to sleep with "sati-viriya" against thieves and house fires. When we eat we have to eat with "sati-viriya" so that we may not eat disagreeable food. When we travel we have to travel with "sati-viriya" so that we may not meet with accidents, and so on. Having said that, I will now present the sutta. I got the Paa.li text from http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ The translation is by Ven Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. -------------------- MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta 136. Eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa saavatthiya.m viharati jetavane anaathapi.n.dikassa aaraame. Tatra kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi "bhikkhavo"ti. "Bhadante"ti te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosu.m. Bhagavaa etadavoca: 1. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. There he addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Bhikkhus." "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: ---------- "ariya.m vo, bhikkhave, sammaasamaadhi.m desessaami saupanisa.m saparikkhaara.m. Ta.m su.naatha, saadhuka.m manasi karotha; bhaasissaamii"ti. "Eva.m, bhante"ti kho te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosu.m. Bhagavaa etadavoca 2. "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites. [Note 1099] Listen and attend closely to what I shall say." "Yes, venerable sir," the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this: [Note 1099] Ariya.m sammaa samaadhi.m sa-upanisa.m saparikkhaara.m. MA explains "noble" here as supramundane, and says that this is the concentration pertaining to the supramundane path. Its "supports and requisites," as will be shown, are the other seven path factors. ----------- "Katamo ca, bhikkhave, ariyo sammaasamaadhi saupaniso saparikkhaaro? Seyyathida.m sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati; yaa kho, bhikkhave, imehi sattaha"ngehi cittassa ekaggataa parikkhataa aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, ariyo sammaasamaadhi saupaniso itipi, saparikkhaaro itipi. 3. "What, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites. ----------- To be continued. with metta, Han #126858 From: Kanchana Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. kchuathong Dear Nina, May your deep understanding in dhamma comfort you in this sad situation. With metta, Kanchana and sangob. > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. <...> #126859 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 4:57 pm Subject: Poland: "Once in a lifetime...." sarahprocter... Dear Nina & friends, KS: Once in a lifetime can apply to any moment, even a moment of sadness. Once in a lifetime will never come back, that's all. That's the way to have less clinging, but there must be the understanding of reality as not self, otherwise it doesn't work at all. It depends on panna whether it can see that the sadness now is not the same as the sadness a moment ago. One can see the value of developing panna little by little, otherwise there won't be great panna. ***** KS: Who can take responsibility for the other? It's only thinking. What about taking responsibility for one's own accumulations - to accumulate understanding or ignorance? ***** KS: It's not necessary to think about whether there is awareness or not. It's there when there's understanding. **** Metta Sarah ===== #126860 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Poland: Carelessness and intoxicants sarahprocter... Dear Friends, KS: Food is nutrition, healthy food. Even the Buddha taught not to be careless, to keep good health in order to understand the Teachings. Going to a doctor is one factor.... ** Akusala, carelessness will lead to more and more akusala. The most important thing in this life is to understand reality otherwise it's not worth being born as a human, because we don't know what next life will be. If there is no understanding, there will be more and more ignorance which is difficult to eradicate. So the most important thing is not being careless, not underestimating any akusala in one's life. It depends on understanding - when there is understanding, it can see the danger of being careless, not underestimating akusala even a little, so it depends on understanding which can have less and less ignorance and all akusala moments. We have habits of akusala from aeons and aeons ago. It's time to have new habits, listening to Dhamma and see that life is so short. What is the best thing at every moment? It cannot be in one day, but it can develop little by little. **** Metta Sarah ====== #126861 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 5:22 pm Subject: Poland: "People will die..." sarahprocter... Dear friends, Adam: People will die. KS: Seeing dies, hearing dies each moment, so where is people or a person? Where is a person who dies or what is a person who dies? In reality there is no person. A moment of seeing cannot be a person. It arises and falls away. Another moment of hearing is not a person - it arises and falls away. So actually we think there is a permanent person who sees, who hears, but actually seeing is conditioned. Adam: Because we don't see reality. KS: Like looking for dhamma, but no understanding of dhamma. You never meet or see dhamma. But when there is understanding, you cannot escape or go away from dhamma at all because it's not you, it's the arising of dhamma from time to time. So life exists only in a moment of an experience of an object. Are there spaces in the body? Everyone's body? So where's you? Only the heap of rupa - that which cannot experience anything. This rupa can sit, walk, talk whenever there is citta, but when there is no citta arising at that rupa, it cannot do anything because rupa cannot experience anything. *** Lukas & Adam: Why do we need to know the realities? What is the point? Why? KS: To understand the nature, the truth of reality. Understand reality as it is. This is the point. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, but the truth is the truth. **** Metta Sarah p.s more Poland audio has been uploaded. Will be back in a couple of days or so, when settled in Aus. ====== #126862 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 5:26 pm Subject: Re: Hello-intro sarahprocter... Dear Tam, So glad you've posted your nice intro and hope you're having a good trip. Hope you can continue to post from Vietnam. (I asked your friend, T.Tam is she could access DSG and she said she could.) Look forward to meeting you again soon. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear all members, > > My name is Tam and I am from Vietnam. > > I have found the way to DSG thanks to... <....> #126863 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello-intro sarahprocter... Dear Khun Kanchana, Very glad to welcome you here! It was lovely to spend time with you recently in Poland and see you in Vietnam. Please do continue to add any of your comments. Do you have a link to the pictures (and journal) you took in Poland? For others, we've known Kanchana for a very long time as she's also been listening to and assisting A.Sujin for many, many years. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kanchana Chuathong wrote: > > Dear Tam, >  My name is Kanchana and I am going to join the Dhamma discussion in Vietnam with Acharn Sujin and others in 4 - 14 Nov. 2012. Nice to see you soon. #126864 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 9:31 pm Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) ptaus1 Hi Han, > Is the English translation of Muulapariyaayavagga A.t.thakathaa (for MN 1 to MN 10) available on-line? Here's also commentary to MN 9: http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh377-u.html And commentary to satipatthana sutta you probably already know: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html Though I'm not sure if it takes commentary from MN 10 or DN 22. Best wishes pt #126865 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] With the passing of time upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 10/2/2012 12:30:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, On 1 October 2012 21:53, wrote: > ** > It's good to hear from you! No doubt you've had some interesting > experiences, though I suspect that what is "real" and what is "unreal" is > not > something we should be very certain about. > I acknowledge that I do not know what I do not know :-) ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Are you sure? LOLOL! --------------------------------------------------- Having said that, I do not doubt that whatever was experienced was experienced, only the possible explanations for it, ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I agree with that. I also am pretty much on the same page as you as regards perspective on the "non-separateness" of phenomena, but that, as we also agree, is not yet *knowing*. ---------------------------------------------------------- > In any case, I do hope you will be > careful as to what and how much of psychoactive substances you ingest. > > Your words of caution are well-founded, and I appreciate them. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Thanks for accepting this just as I meant it. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------- Cheers Herman =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126866 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 11:20 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, One of our friends said that she had been clinging to her lunch. She was to come home for lunch, a rare occasion for her, and she looked forward to her meal. Do we look forward to our meals? That is daily life. We should investigate more often the cittas that arise at such moments. I found that I was clinging to the fan in the room since it brought some coolness in the hot weather. I also cling to unspoilt nature, to a sunset and to music. I cling to Dhamma discussions and to the friends of the Dhamma discussion group. Do we truly see that clinging is harmful? I have read in the scriptures, for example in the “Parable of the Water-snake” (Middle Length Sayings I, no 22), that sense-pleasures are compared to “a skeleton... to a lump of meat... to a torch of dry grass... to a pit of glowing embers...” However, I have to admit that I do not really see the danger of clinging to such objects as a sunset or music. I do not harm others when I cling to such pleasant objects, and, moreover, I am not a monk but a layfollower. I cannot give up music, it is part of my daily life. It is difficult to see the danger of clinging, even though we know that it brings sorrow and disappointment when we do not have the pleasant objects anymore we have been clinging to. The Buddha did not forbid clinging, he urged people to prove the truth to themselves. I found that when a moment of sincere generosity arises, or true consideration of someone else’s happiness, there is another kind of joy, different from the kind of pleasure that is connected with clinging. We can find out that there is selfishness with clinging. When we like a sunset or music, we actually cling to our own pleasant feeling, thus, we are attached to ourselves. We may not find clinging harmful, but when we compare it with a moment of kusala citta, we may begin to see the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. If we consider more the different cittas which appear we shall see this, not merely in a theoretical way, but through our own experience. We can come to know that at the moment of kusala citta there is peace and at the moment of akusala citta there is restlessness. We may have read the Buddha’s advice to the Kålåmas (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, Ch VII, § 65, Those of Kesaputta): “... Be not misled by report or tradition or hearsay. Be not misled by proficiency in the collections, nor by mere logic or inference, nor after considering reasons, nor after reflection on and approval of some theory, nor because it fits becoming, nor out of respect for a recluse (who holds it). But, Kålamas, when you know for yourselves: These things are unprofitable, these things are blameworthy, these things are censured by the wise; these things when performed and undertaken, conduce to loss and sorrow-- then indeed do you reject them, Kålåmas....” ------- Nina. #126867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Kanchana, thank you. Only the dhamma can help us, that is true. I am glad to see you here in dsg, Nina. Op 2-okt-2012, om 8:45 heeft Kanchana het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, > May your deep understanding in dhamma comfort you in this sad > situation. > #126868 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear pt, Thank you very much for A.t.thakathaa of MN 9. I have successfully downloaded it. I have the book by Soma Thera. with metta and respect, Han --- On Tue, 10/2/12, ptaus1 wrote: From: ptaus1 Hi Han, Here's also commentary to MN 9: http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh377-u.html And commentary to satipatthana sutta you probably already know: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html Though I'm not sure if it takes commentary from MN 10 or DN 22. Best wishes pt #126869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (20) (lobha) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 30-sep-2012, om 12:23 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > ph: Lobha is really prevalent. The first cittas after the rebirth > citta has fallen away are invariably rooted in lobha. Nina has > explained to me several times why that is, but I always forget.... ------ N: There are first bhavangacittas, then cittas rooted in lobha arise, because every being clings to life. The arahat has eradicated lobha and no more rebirth. Nina. #126870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland: "People will die..." nilovg Dear Sarah, You worked very hard. Thank you, appreciated. Nina. Op 2-okt-2012, om 9:22 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > p.s more Poland audio has been uploaded. Will be back in a couple > of days or so, when settled in Aus. #126871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Perfections. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 30-sep-2012, om 21:03 heeft philofillet het volgende geschreven: > By the way, what is the difference between developing perfections > and developing kusala? Is it the emphasis on many lifetimes? > > I think I will listen again to share Lodewijk's kusala. ------ N: That is very good, thank you for your kind letter. Kusala citta can arise without understanding or with understanding. The perfections are developed with pa~n~naa. They are perfections when the aim is having less defilements. I quote from the perfections: < The ten perfections have lobha, attachment, as their opposite and, therefore, we should not forget that we should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala, but because we see the danger of each kind of akusala. We should not develop the perfections because we wish for a result to materialize within the cycle of birth and death, but because our aim is the eradication of defilements and eventually to reach the end of the cycle of birth and death. The end of the cycle can be attained when all defilements have been eradicated completely. So long as we have defilements there is no end to the cycle of birth and death. Thus, one should not de- velop the perfections in the expectation of a result of kusala in the cycle of birth and death. .. We may listen to the Dhamma every day, but we should know and consider why we listen: we should listen with the firm determination and intention to have right understanding of the Dhamma so that we can apply it, now and during each life to come. We should know the right purpose of listening: the development of paññå that can eradicate defilements. In this way the perfections can begin to develop while we listen. .. If we do not study the perfections, we may continue just to listen without knowing the right purpose of it, and because of this we surely shall not realize the four noble Truths. We should consider whether the perfections begin to develop while we listen to the Dhamma. Whenever we have the firm determination to listen with the right purpose, the development of paññå, we develop and accumulate all ten perfections so that they can reach accomplishment.> --------- It is not a matter of thinking: now I shall develop the perfections. All kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind can be developed, and that with the right purpose: the eradication of defilements, not with the aim to gain anything for oneself. Nina. #126872 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 7:22 am Subject: Re: With the passing of time jonoabb Hi Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi all, > > If anything has become clearer to me over time, it is this: > > Nama is concept > Rupa is concept > > Nama/Rupa is real. > In other words, reality is irreducibly complex, and therefore any "understanding" of component realities is no understanding at all. > =============== J: Interesting. In what sense are you using 'real' and 'reality/realities'? Jon PS Good to see you back! #126873 From: "sukinderpal narula" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 9:48 am Subject: Re: Hello-intro sukinderpal Hello Tam, Welcome to DSG. I hope that you will participate in the discussions and not just read in. If you have difficulty accessing the website, you could set your account to send individual posts to your mailbox. And from there you can then post your comments to here. Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear all members, > > My name is Tam and I am from Vietnam. > > I have found the way to DSG thanks to... the internet where I read Rob K's posts on Dhamma Wheel about Achaan Sujin's teaching. I was #126874 From: "philip" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello-intro philofillet Hello Tam and Kanchana Welcome to the group, it is always great when new members who are responsive to the Dhamma and its subtlety (as explained by A.Sujin) appear on the scene. It doesn't happen very often, most Dhamma teachers explain in line with the ways of the world, much more attractive to hear about perceivable progress. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kanchana Chuathong wrote: > > Dear Tam, >  My name is Kanchana and I am going to join the Dhamma discussion in Vietnam with Acharn Sujin and others in 4 - 14 Nov. 2012. Nice to see you soon. >  with metta, > Kanchana. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Tam Bach > <...> > > My name is Tam and I am from Vietnam. > > I have found the way to DSG thanks to... the internet where I read Rob K's posts on Dhamma Wheel about Achaan Sujin's teaching. > <...> > #126875 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 11:30 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Hi Jagkrit, all. > > Ph: I wonder about the word "natural." Flying thousands of miles to listen to a teacher is bo more or less "natural" than sitting on a cushion "watching dhammas arise and fall away." The functioning of dhammas which is the real point if our study can never be more or less "natural", can it? I think the point is what dhammas are at work, not the conventional situations of "listening to Ajahn and asking questions" vs. "meditating." Dhammas always arise naturally, due to conditions, don't they? I think the pount is *what* dhammas arise, not whether they arise "naturally" or not. Unless we take "unnaturally" as shorthand for the greef and ignorance of the "meditator" who is inevitably forcing things to get fast results. > ------------------- > > JJ: It is very good question and sharp comparison. However, I have to define the word "Natural" for more understanding. Natural in Pali term can be "dhamma Chata" which means being according to dhamma. Therefore, flying thousands of miles to discuss dhamma or sitting on a cushion watching dhammas or going to the retreat sitting or walking meditation are happen according to dhammas which are conditioned precisely. My wife expected to come with me for this dhamma discussion in Poland but now she is sitting on a sofa may be watching or listen to dhammas. It is again natural or according to dhamma which arise by conditions, paccayas. Ph: Last night I happened to hear the talk in which my question was raised. I felt very satisfied by Ajahn's answer, and as you've written above. Whatever situation arises, it arises due to conditions, and she mentionned a Thai word which I guess is similar to "dhamma chata" you use above, she says Thai people always use it. Ann mentioned intention, the intentions that are involved in flying to join a Dhamma discussion, or sitting to obvserve dhammas rise and fall. Both are conditioned precisely, everying that happens is of course conditioned precisely, but the different ingredients of the conditions can be understood by panna, and perhaps the meditator can come to see how his or her practice is motivated by greedy intentions. Of course he or she can then say that seeing the moments of greedy intention is part of the development of understanding, so there is not way to communicate that the whole process is rooted in greed, it will click, or not. And for some who listen, as is oftent he case for me, there is a belief that subtle understanding can be developed by listening. But I like what she said early in that talk, forget about dicussing satipatthana, that is advanced, there is not satipatthana when we answer the question "does seeing arise", there is correct intellectual understanding that seeing does not continue, there are moments of seeing mixed in with many moments of thinking of other sense door processes. We can understand that better intellectually by joining dhamma discussion, we are accumulating intellectual understanding, different from the meditator who believes that satipatthana is being developed. So yes, both travelling to and joining a discussion and goigng to a meditation retreat are conditioned precisely, and we can understand the motivations, or not. Probably easier for those of us who do meditate (I love it!!! Good for the brain, good for health) or have meditated to understand the intensity and prevalence of subtle greed inovlved than for those who don't. Phil #126876 From: "philip" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 11:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Perfections. philofillet Hello Nina > > By the way, what is the difference between developing perfections > > and developing kusala? Is it the emphasis on many lifetimes? > > > > I think I will listen again to share Lodewijk's kusala. > ------ > N: That is very good, thank you for your kind letter. > Kusala citta can arise without understanding or with understanding. > The perfections are developed with pa~n~naa. They are perfections > when the aim is having less defilements. Today I heard today from the intro to Perfections that all kinds of kusala must be developed to make conditions for panna, so can it be said that there is kusala without panna and this makes conditions for kusala with panna, and the latter are the perfections? No, that is too formulaic, I don't like those simple formulas anymore (e.f sila >>>samadhi>>>panna) so never mind. It will become clearer to me someday how perfections are different from kusala, but for now it is not clear and that is fine. I won't understand it by thinking about it or thinking about what you write until PING!!! I get it. (i.e panna will arise to this point, or not, no control over that. I don't believe in pressing on points by thinking hard about them, I think (in my opinioin) that is usually just self wanting results, subtlely. Understanding arises beyond control, that's the only way, anatta. Phil p.s I will now start a series about listening to the Perfections. #126877 From: "philip" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 11:54 am Subject: Listening to the Perfections (1 - hearing Lodewijk's voice.) philofillet Hi all I have listened several times to Lodewijk reading The Perfections (you can find it in the audio section in the links) and I decided it would be a good time to listen again. Interesting to hear his voice. There was the thought "he died" and a moment of sadness. It was more for me than for Lodewijk or Nina, I don't want to die and I don't want my loved ones to die. Self always comes first, or almost always. And then as he read the sutta about abandon evil, it can be done, etc, if it couldn't the Buddha wouldn't have said so, etc I felt a lot of confidence come up. There is no more Lodewijk Van Gorkom (though through a nice functioning of conceptual processes he lives on in a sense for me through listening to his voice) but the kusala cittas that perform such deeds as reading a Dhamma book (we can assume there were many many kusala moments, there probably would have been a lot of dosa as well about taking the time, having technical difficulties etc) accumulate and develop. Kusala develops, beyond the control of any self, irregardless of the person involved when Lodewijk was reading, or the person (we can be pretty sure of that, though deva realm would be nice too!) that is now being operated, so to speak, by the same stream of cittas that were at work in "Lodewijk Van Gorkom." We have to be aware that eternalism creeps in here, but there is also correct understanding that kusala citta falls away and conditions the arising of further kusala. That made me feel very confident as I walked along the street, listening, and it would have probably been a very good moment to get hit by a car and killed! Because soon after that that confidence and understanding were not arising, I was thinking about baseball and sex, as usual. But now as I write, confidence and understanding again. Quick! Where's that car? Phil #126878 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 6:47 pm Subject: Re: Hello-intro rjkjp1 Dear Tam it is nice to hear that my posts were a trigger for you to meet with A. Sujin, wish we could meet in Vietnam but I moved to Kuwait last month and my new appointment has many duties. There is another dsg member Scott , who saw a post of mine on esangha days and joined dsg, he is a real Dhamma prodigy, and was even learning Pali. Look out for his posts on the occasions when he writes. For myself I came to meet Sujin though Nina's books and writing handwritten letters to Nina, back in pre-internet days. As Kenh once said, "where would we be without Nina"! The Buddhist of these times are very keen on making progress as Phil mentioned, but as you know Rightview is the key to genuine progress, and that depends on wise consideration of Saddhadhamma. Effort is wrong unless it is with rightview. But when it is present with rightview and right thought and right concentration it assists sati to know any object without trying to change the object or trying to observe it. Those objects for satipatthana are arising constantly but satipatthana cannot arise if one starts searching for an object we think we should percieve: then there is tanha, not sati. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear all members, > > My name is Tam and I am from Vietnam. > > I have found the way to DSG thanks to... the internet where I read Rob K's posts on Dhamma Wheel about Achaan Sujin's teaching. I was immediately attracted by the radical way she talked about anatta (via Rob K's posts), but it took a while before conditions were ripe for me to meet her at the Dhamma Studies Foundation in Bangkok in early 2010. I attended the 2 hours discussions lead by Achaan, and was greatly impressed by the quality of the discussion and interventions, from Achaan as well as from her students present there. By quality, I mean the establishment of right view with regard to the present moment. And it was there that I met Sarah and Jonathan too, who gave me the link to the DSG's website. > > Since then I started to listen to the audio Dhamma discussions on the website and have often been struck by the depth of the explanations...I have shared this teaching with some Dhamma friends and they too have been benefiting much from it. The Buddha's Dhamma is deep, but even the very little right understanding of it can put our whole life on a different plane, and we feel most thankful to Achaan Khujin for tirelessly explaining the right Path, since it is much easier to go the wrong ones and/or off from the Middle Way. > > I am so glad to have come across this precious teaching (a big sadhu to Rob K, Nina, Jonathan, Sarah and all!), and hope the conditions will continue to allow me to develop more understanding this way, learning more from Achaan and from you all! > > I don't know to what extent I will be able to contribute...it is likely that i will disappear like Betty after the introduction :-), because I am totally unsure of being able to access the site once I'm back to Vietnam. but if I can receive all the messages through e-mails, it's already good enough. > > Thanks for being our good friends in the Dhamma! > > Best wishes on the Path and metta to all! > > Tam > > > Life is Meditation is Life > http://www.thienvacuocsong.info/ > http://www.trungtamhotong.org/ > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ > http://www.buddhanet.net/ > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > http://sayadawutejaniya.org/teachings/ > > > #126879 From: Herman Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: With the passing of time egberdina Hi Jon, Thanks for the welcome. > > > If anything has become clearer to me over time, it is this: > > > > Nama is concept > > Rupa is concept > > > > Nama/Rupa is real. > > > In other words, reality is irreducibly complex, and therefore any > "understanding" of component realities is no understanding at all. > > =============== > > J: Interesting. In what sense are you using 'real' and 'reality/realities'? > > In the sense of the Sabba Sutta - anything that happens is real/reality, but that nothing that happens, happens by itself. "the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas". Noteworthy are the pairings, which equates to what I mean with irreducible complexity. There is no sense that the eye is one thing and that forms are another thing. In the way that one side of a coin depends on the other, and vice versa, talk of nama without reference to rupa, and reference to rupa without nama is conceptual. It misses the reality boat. > Jon > > PS Good to see you back! > > > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126880 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 7:37 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Hi Phil and all Besides Thai word "Dhamma Chat" which means natural, there is another word in Thai called "Dhamma Da" which means "normal" in English. In Pali there is the word "Dhamma Tha" which sounds close to Thai word "Dhamma Da" above. But Pali term of "Dhamma Tha" means it is dhammas. T.A. Sujin sometimes uses this Thai word that everything is Dhamma Da (normal) as the same meaning of everything is dhammas as you mentioned. ------------------- Ph: perhaps the meditator can come to see how his or her practice is motivated by greedy intentions. Of course he or she can then say that seeing the moments of greedy intention is part of the development of understanding, so there is no way to communicate that the whole process is rooted in greed, it will click, or not. JJ: In Thailand, there was one of wellknown monk who was very good at meditaion. He meditated for many years and he claimed that he fulfilled with his method of meditating and eradicate Kilesa until another senior monk show him his very delicate lobha ariseing with the attachment of peacful feeling while meditating. He then aware that he lost to lobha all along. We, therefore, can notice even the monk who learn dhamma for years and stay in good discipline still lost to lobha. How can general people as us will survive lobha if we do not actually know it first before doing anything to eradicate it. This is why T.A. Sujin always stresses that don't do anything without real understanding. Before go to meditate, one must understand first and thoroughtly investigate what really is meditation in Budhist teaching. Because nowadays, the word "meditation" is very conventional langauge for all kind of practice and even phycological teaching. Therefore, there will always be misunderstanding about meditation practise as the way to find calmness or peacfulness and think that Kilesa will certainly not arise while meditate. That is reckless thinking and underestimate Kilesa. As the example of the monk mentioned above, he lost many years without knowing that lobha won the battle. ------------------- Ph: So yes, both travelling to and joining a discussion and goigng to a meditation retreat are conditioned precisely, and we can understand the motivations, or not. Probably easier for those of us who do meditate (I love it!!! Good for the brain, good for health) or have meditated to understand the intensity and prevalence of subtle greed inovlved than for those who don't. JJ: I agree with you. If you eat good food for health, why can't we meditate for health. It is natural. But meditate with intention of something else, even try to understand subtle greed, it is unnatural. Because greed or craving in daily life always arises and we can not aware of it, how can we aware or experience it in meditation? Anomodhana Jagkrit #126881 From: Herman Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 egberdina Hi Phil, On 3 October 2012 11:30, philofillet wrote: > ** > > > Ph: Last night I happened to hear the talk in which my question was > raised. I felt very satisfied by Ajahn's answer, and as you've written > above. Whatever situation arises, it arises due to conditions, and she > mentionned a Thai word which I guess is similar to "dhamma chata" you use > above, she says Thai people always use it. > > Ann mentioned intention, the intentions that are involved in flying to > join a Dhamma discussion, or sitting to obvserve dhammas rise and fall. > Both are conditioned precisely, everying that happens is of course > conditioned precisely, but the different ingredients of the conditions can > be understood by panna, and perhaps the meditator can come to see how his > or her practice is motivated by greedy intentions. > Why do you say that everything that happens is conditioned precisely? Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126882 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Hi Herman > > Why do you say that everything that happens is conditioned precisely? > It's my belief system when I consider Dhamma. That might change, who knows? Maybe I will become a truth seeker like you (I googled that drug, sounds intriguing) and others. But for now I loathe having my own original ideas about Dhamma. Phil #126883 From: "philip" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 10:53 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (20) (lobha) philofillet Dear Group Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "The Buddha taught people to study and investigate realities so that sati of satipatthana could be aware of the characteristics of the realities that are appearing (*) and right understanding of them could be developed. This means that one should investigate realities, notice their characteristics and be aware of them in order to know them precisely, just as they are. In this way, we can come to know which dhammas are kusala, which are akusala and which are neither kusala not akusala. We can come to know akusala as akusala, no matter of what degree, be it coarse or more subtle. It should be known that not only aversion (dosa) is akusala dhamma, but that there are also many other types of akusala cetasikas. (57) (*) footnote -Sati (mindfulness) is a cetasika that is non forgetful of what is wholesome. There are different levels of sati. Sati of satipatthana is non-forgetful, mindful of the characteristics of naama and ruupa. (end of passage) Ph: (quoting from above.) "In this way, we can come to know which dhammas are kusala, which are akusala and which are neither kusala not akusala. We can come to know akusala as akusala, no matter of what degree, be it coarse or more subtle." We *can* come to know this, as in it is possible that satipatthana may arise. Not "can" as in an expected result of a training program! Phil #126884 From: "philip" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 11:05 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (21) (sati of satipatthana) philofillet Oops, please allow me to repost with the proper number and title. Vitally important, don't you know! Dear Group Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "The Buddha taught people to study and investigate realities so that sati of satipatthana could be aware of the characteristics of the realities that are appearing (*) and right understanding of them could be developed. This means that one should investigate realities, notice their characteristics and be aware of them in order to know them precisely, just as they are. In this way, we can come to know which dhammas are kusala, which are akusala and which are neither kusala not akusala. We can come to know akusala as akusala, no matter of what degree, be it coarse or more subtle. It should be known that not only aversion (dosa) is akusala dhamma, but that there are also many other types of akusala cetasikas. (57) (*) footnote -Sati (mindfulness) is a cetasika that is non forgetful of what is wholesome. There are different levels of sati. Sati of satipatthana is non-forgetful, mindful of the characteristics of naama and ruupa. (end of passage) Ph: (quoting from above.) "In this way, we can come to know which dhammas are kusala, which are akusala and which are neither kusala not akusala. We can come to know akusala as akusala, no matter of what degree, be it coarse or more subtle." We *can* come to know this, as in it is possible that satipatthana may arise. Not "can" as in an expected result of a training program! Phil #126885 From: "philip" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 11:14 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Hi Jagkrit > In Pali there is the word "Dhamma Tha" which sounds close to Thai word "Dhamma Da" above. > > But Pali term of "Dhamma Tha" means it is dhammas. > > T.A. Sujin sometimes uses this Thai word that everything is Dhamma Da (normal) as the same meaning of everything is dhammas as you mentioned. Ph: Thanks, yes. This is what I heard. > > JJ: In Thailand, there was one of wellknown monk who was very good at meditaion. He meditated for many years and he claimed that he fulfilled with his method of meditating and eradicate Kilesa until another senior monk show him his very delicate lobha ariseing with the attachment of peacful feeling while meditating. He then aware that he lost to lobha all along. We, therefore, can notice even the monk who learn dhamma for years and stay in good discipline still lost to lobha. How can general people as us will survive lobha if we do not actually know it first before doing anything to eradicate it. Ph: Of course there is subtle lobha without wrong view that we do not seek to eradicate. It is the lobha with wrong view that must go first. I heard a very, very good talk on this topic once. I can still remember where I heard it, riding a subway in Tokyo. It made so much sense, it was so clear. But now I can't remember. But it helped me understand why wrong view has to go first. Well, in terms of enlightenment, of course, the sotapanna has eradicated lobha with wrong view right?) and subtle lobha is only eradicated by the...arahant, if I recall correctly. Phil #126886 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 12:26 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Hi Phil > Ph: Of course there is subtle lobha without wrong view that we do not seek to eradicate. It is the lobha with wrong view that must go first. I heard a very, very good talk on this topic once. I can still remember where I heard it, riding a subway in Tokyo. It made so much sense, it was so clear. But now I can't remember. But it helped me understand why wrong view has to go first. Well, in terms of enlightenment, of course, the sotapanna has eradicated lobha with wrong view right?) and subtle lobha is only eradicated by the...arahant, if I recall correctly. JJ: Thank you Phil, lobha with wrong view is the first kilesa that panna will eradicate as you recalled and explained with sotapannatimak above. And in 16 Vipassana nana stages in Survery of Paramattha Dhamma, the first 3 stages mention about insight of nama and rupa, their conditions and their arising and falling continuously which reflects understanding right view of anatta. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 12:29 am Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Do we really understand this sutta? We read suttas but we do not apply them. During our discussions we discovered that we cling more often than we ever realized before. We cling to all the objects that are experienced through the senses and through the mind-door. We cling to people’s opinion about us, we want to be liked by them. Once Acharn Sujin was handing a bowl of soup to someone else and then the bowl was overturned; soup was spillled all over a friend’s clothes. Sarah and I noticed that Acharn Sujin was not upset and we said that we would be upset in such a situation. But being upset is dosa and thus it is not helpful. “I feel awful”, is what we usually say in such circumstances, but do we realize it when our words are motivated by akusala citta? The dosa that arises may be conditioned by strong clinging to ourselves. We cling to ourselves time and again. When we miss someone who is dear to us there is sadness and this is conditioned by clinging to our own pleasant feeling, the feeling we derive from being in the company of that person. When we realize more often our many moments of clinging, it is the beginning of right understanding and this is beneficial. It is better to know ourselves than to be ignorant our whole life. Most people do not like to have dosa, because it is accompanied by unpleasant feeling and one dislikes unpleasant feeling. However, we should not forget that it is our clinging to pleasant objects which conditions dosa. When we have experienced ourselves that attachment leads to sorrow it will help us to see its disadvantage. Moha, ignorance, is dangerous. It arises with each akusala citta. Ignorance blinds us. Because of ignorance we do not see realities as they are, we do not see what is right and what is wrong. Because of ignorance we take for beneficial what in reality is harmful. It is because of ignorance that we do not realize that clinging is harmful. Bhante Dhammadharo encouraged us to investigate more the different cittas which arise when we want to go somewhere, when we make a plan or wish to get something. Is it not most of the time clinging that motivates our walking and moving around, our bending and stretching? Which types of cittas arise when we want to rest in the afternoon, is it kusala citta or akusala citta? Is it not vital to know this? There can easily be cittas rooted in lobha and dosa. When we feel tiredness is there not often aversion? --------- Nina #126888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Listening to the Perfections (1 - hearing Lodewijk's voice.) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 3-okt-2012, om 3:54 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > And then as he read the sutta about abandon evil, it can be done, > etc, if it couldn't the Buddha wouldn't have said so, etc I felt a > lot of confidence come up. There is no more Lodewijk Van Gorkom ------ N: He particularly liked this sutta, and once in Inda he read it in the bus for us all. Lots of memories! Nina. #126889 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Op 3-okt-2012, om 11:37 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > JJ: In Thailand, there was one of wellknown monk who was very good > at meditaion. He meditated for many years and he claimed that he > fulfilled with his method of meditating and eradicate Kilesa until > another senior monk show him his very delicate lobha ariseing with > the attachment of peacful feeling while meditating. He then aware > that he lost to lobha all along. ----- N: This monks is admirable, he is not proud. It is very good of him so see that it was lobha. He was "easy to speak to". Nina. #126890 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 1:24 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 szmicio Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jagkrit, > Op 3-okt-2012, om 11:37 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > > > JJ: In Thailand, there was one of wellknown monk who was very good > > at meditaion. He meditated for many years and he claimed that he > > fulfilled with his method of meditating and eradicate Kilesa until > > another senior monk show him his very delicate lobha ariseing with > > the attachment of peacful feeling while meditating. He then aware > > that he lost to lobha all along. > ----- > N: This monks is admirable, he is not proud. It is very good of him > so see that it was lobha. He was "easy to speak to". L: There is also a mulapariyayasutta, the first sutta of majjhima nikaya, where monks didn't rejoice the Blessed One discourse. I read somewhere(commentaries/ or notes from translator). They didnt rejoice cause of accumulated tendency to conceit(mana). Best wishes Lukas #126891 From: Lukas Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 1:43 am Subject: Issa cetasika(Envy or Jealousy) - Refreshed old post szmicio Dear friends, This was very helpful post. The cetasika dosa also causes the accompanying dhammas to be corrupted or to have aversion. This is expressed by the term: by means of it (tena). All the accompanying dhammas and thus also envy are affected by dosa. ***** Text Vis.: (xlvi) Envying is 'envy'. It has the characteristic of being jealous of other's success. ------- N: The Tiika states that not enduring the prosperity of others is the cause of jealousy. -------- Text Vis.: Its function is to be dissatisfied with that. ----- N: The Tiika emphasizes that there is just in that case, namely, in the case of the prosperity of others, dissatisfaction. It explains as to the words its function is dissatisfactionÅ¡, that this is not merely the absence of satisfaction, but that its function is being opposed to satisfaction. ------ Text Vis.: It is manifested as averseness from that. ------ N: Averseness is the translation from the Pali vimukhabhaava, the nature of turning away. It dislikes the object, the prosperity of others. Thus, we see that it can only arise with citta rooted in aversion. ---------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is another's success. It should be regarded as a fetter. ------- The fetters or sa.myojanas fetter us to the cycle of birth and death. Envy is classified among these fetters. We read in the Dhammasanga.ni (§ 1121) : The Expositor (II, p. 479) explains that envy has the characteristic of: < not enduring, or of grumbling at the prosperity of others, saying concerning othersÅ¡ gains, etc. What is the use to these people of all this?Å¡ > It explains that in the case of monks, the objects of envy are the requisites that are received, or the honour and respect given to them. But envy also pertains to householders who receive a splendid vehicle or gem. We read that someone else thinks,< When will he decline from this prosperity and walk about a pauper?Å¡ and if for a certain reason the other does decline from that prosperity he is pleased.> The object of jealousy can also be someone elseÅ¡s knowledge. We read: < A certain recluse also being envious at seeing the acquirement of gain, etc., arising from general knowledge, scriptural scholarship, etc., thinks, When will this man decline in these acquirements?Å¡ etc., and when he sees him, for some reason, decline, then he is glad.> Envy is conditioned by the cetasikas that accompany the dosa-muulacitta it arises together with. Thus, it is also conditioned by ignorance, moha. Moha darkens the true nature of dhammas. When there is ignorance of kamma and vipaaka one fails to see that the pleasant worldly conditionsÅ¡ of gain, praise, honour and bodily wellbeing are the results of kusala kamma, there is an opportunity for jealousy. One does not see that it is pointless to have aversion and be jealous on account of what are merely conditioned dhammas. Muditaa, sympathetic joy, is the opposite of envy. When one rejoices at someone elseÅ¡s prosperity there is no opportunity for jealousy. Seeing the benefit of sympathetic joy which is a way of kusala will be a condition for its arising. The sotaapanna has eradicated jealousy, because through insight he realizes that all experiences are only conditioned dhammas that do not last and are non-self. He has direct understanding of kamma and its result and he realizes that when someone receives pleasant sense objects it is the result of kamma. ****** Nina.> #126892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 3:52 am Subject: Poland 10, the khandhas now. nilovg Dear friends, Poland 10. Khandha is a reality at this moment, not a concept. The following will make clear that what is taught about the khandhas is really our daily life now. Acharn: Why is feeling, vedanaa, a separate khandha? Vedanaa is most important, everyone likes pleasant feeling. When the Buddha taught about citta he also taught about the accompanying vedanaa. Even when pleasant feeling is gone, sa~n~naa keeps it in mind, remembers the very special kind of feeling, all the time. Vitakka leads to that kind of feeling, all the time. Whenever there is vitakka, there is also sa~n~naakkhandha, vitakka thinks about what sa~n~naa remembers. One can understand how vitakka is sankhaarakkhandha, how sa~n~naa is sa~n~naakkhandha and vedanaa is vedanaakkhandha. Why do we call it khandha? It arises and falls away and is never the same one, always a new one. Even right now, what is seen? Not the previous visible object. It is not the same. Khandhas are not just the group of five, each one is khandha. Everyone likes pleasant feeling, that is why it is called khandha of clinging, upadanakkhandha, it clings to whatever appears. ------- Nina. #126893 From: "connie" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 6:54 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 nichiconn phil, < Won't you come along and Tiptoe Thru the Tulips with Meeeeee!? - Tiny Tim > Take another, serious dose of dhp47 (dsg126803). Take some for the PoleDancer, too. connie > > that drug, sounds intriguing #126894 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 12:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Nina, all > N: This monks is admirable, he is not proud. It is very good of him > so see that it was lobha. He was "easy to speak to". JJ: Exactly. I think the one who has right understanding of learning or practicing dhammas will be easy to speak to. Because he will not be overwhelmed by conceit of knowledge. Even he was very well known, he could accept his wrong practice, careless of losing face at all. Again, I heard many time from T.A. Sujin that don't forget the purpose of studying dhammas. For the purpose of understanding only. If anyone has other purpose or hoping for something else, he will be followed by conceit of self after all. And eventually he will be hard to speak to. I looked in Apidhamma Tipitika, dhammasungkini said about "Sovachassata" character of the one who is easy to speak to as you mentioned above. I hope that you can elaborate more of this among the one who is easy to speak to and the one who is difficult to speak to. Thank you and anumodhana Jagkrit #126895 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 1:27 pm Subject: Re: Poland 10, the khandhas now. jagkrit2012 Dear Nina and all This is very good reminder of the present moment where T.A. Sujin always tell us to understand reality now besides the wording in the books. Thank you very much and anumodhana Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > Poland 10. > > Khandha is a reality at this moment, not a concept. The following > will make clear that what is taught about the khandhas is really our > daily life now. > > Acharn: > > Why is feeling, vedanaa, a separate khandha? Vedanaa is most > important, everyone likes pleasant feeling. When the Buddha taught > about citta he also taught about the accompanying vedanaa. Even when > pleasant feeling is gone, sa~n~naa keeps it in mind, remembers the > very special kind of feeling, all the time. Vitakka leads to that > kind of feeling, all the time. Whenever there is vitakka, there is > also sa~n~naakkhandha, vitakka thinks about what sa~n~naa remembers. > One can understand how vitakka is sankhaarakkhandha, how sa~n~naa is > sa~n~naakkhandha and vedanaa is vedanaakkhandha. > > Why do we call it khandha? It arises and falls away and is never the > same one, always a new one. Even right now, what is seen? Not the > previous visible object. It is not the same. Khandhas are not just > the group of five, each one is khandha. Everyone likes pleasant > feeling, that is why it is called khandha of clinging, > upadanakkhandha, it clings to whatever appears. > > ------- > > Nina. > > > > > > #126896 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 4:01 pm Subject: Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > >There is a story about a Tibetan teacher who always told his students that the people they were attached to were illusory. When his own son died, he cried and grieved, and his students were angry. Why are you so griefstricken if your son was an illusion? The teacher replied: "I know he was an illusion, but he was such a beautiful illusion, I can't help but grieve." > ... > S: Yes, I think the point is that it's better to have heard the truth and to have some understanding about realities vs concepts. This doesn't mean there won't be lots of attachment, grief and ignorance for a long time to come. Thinking it should be otherwise would be wrong understanding of what we've heard. And the student often expects the teacher to be perfect, which is also wrong. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #126897 From: Lukas Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 4:49 pm Subject: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post szmicio Dear friends, This is another, very helpful to me post. Dhamma is everything that is real. < Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 173, avarice. Intro: Avarice, macchariya, does not arise with each akusala citta rooted in aversion, dosa, but when it arises it accompanies dosa-muulacitta. It is one of the inconstants (aniyata) that can accompany dosa-muulacitta. Thus, it is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. It is affected by the dosa it accompanies. When there is stinginess, one has dislike of the idea of sharing the good things one has. Avariciousness pertains to oneÅ¡s own prosperity whereas envy pertains to othersÅ¡ prosperity. Thus, they do not arise together. ------------- Text Vis.:(xlvii) Avariciousness is 'avarice'. ------ N: The Tiika refers to a word association of macchariya, as: the negation ma and acchariya, meaning: what is wonderful. It states:< As the ancients explained the meaning of avarice: may others not possess this wonderfull thing, let it be mine alone.> -------- Text Vis.: Its characteristic is the hiding of one's own success that has been or can be obtained. Its function is not to bear sharing these with others. It is manifested as shrinking , or it is manifested as meanness. N: The Tiika explains that it shrinks back, there is unwillingness to share oneÅ¡s prosperity with others. The Expositor (p. 483) explains: One hides as it were oneÅ¡s property, so that others do not see it and one does not come into the situatiuon of having to share it. ------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is one's own success. -------- N: OneÅ¡s own success or prosperity, these are all the good things one has, such as the pleasant worldly conditions of gain, praise and honour. The Tiika states: beginning with dwelling. There are five kinds of objects on account of which stinginess can arise. We read in the Dhammasangani (1122) in its definition of the fetter of meanness: The five meannesses, (to wit) meanness as regards dwelling, families, gifts, reputation, dhamma- all this sort of meanness, grudging, mean spirit, avarice and ignobleness, niggardliness and want of generosity of heart- this is called the fetter of meanness. As regards stinginess about dwelling, this can be a monastery, a single room or any place where a bhikkhu stays. As to families, gifts, this pertains to the bhikkhu who is dependent on a family of servitors and does not like another bhikkhu to receive gifts from them. He does not like the idea of sharing, because he thinks that he will receive less. The Expositor explains that there is no stinginess if someone has good reasons not to share these things, namely, if others will use them in the wrong way. Also laypeople may be stingy with regard to gain, praise and honour. We may not want to share honour and praise with others, although they deserve to be praised as well. If we understand that praising someone's virtues is an act of generosity, we will more often remember to do this when the opportunity arises. Generosity is the opposite of stinginess. When we praise someone else there is no room for stinginess. ---------- Text Vis.: It should be regarded as a mental disfigurement. ----------- The Pali term viruupa means deformed or ugly. We read about dosa that this is to be considered as stale urine mixed with poison, and it is stated that poison when it takes effect and spreads, makes the body writhe. Also stinginess can have effect on oneÅ¡s bodily appearance and facial expression, it causes lack of beauty. Avarice accompanies dosa-muulacitta and thus it is conditioned by two roots: dosa and ignorance, moha. When there is avarice, there is also moha that darkens the true nature of dhammas. Ignorance does not know about kamma and vipaaka. It is foolish to think that if one shares what one has one will receive less. On the contrary, generosity in oneÅ¡s deeds is kusala kamma that will produce pleasant results in the future. Stinginess will produce an unpleasant result: oneÅ¡s possessions may dwindle or it can motivate evil deeds that cause an unhappy rebirth. In the ultimate sense there are no things we can possess, there are only naama and ruupa which are impermanent. Dhammas which arise and fall away do not belong to us and we cannot keep them. Why are we stingy about what does not belong to us? Stinginess can motivate akusala kamma through action and speech. Because of stinginess one may lie or slander. The Book of AnalysisÅ¡ (Ch 17, 390) explains: Stinginess is a fetter, sa.myojana, which fetters us to the cycle of birth and death. The sotaapanna has eradicated avarice, because through insight he realizes that his prosperity or possessions are only conditioned dhammas that do not last and do not belong to anyone. He has perfect generosity, but this does not mean that he should give away all possessions. He has perfect generosity as to Dhamma, he wishes to share the Dhamma he has realized in order to help others to also realize the four noble Truths. However, as the Expositor explains, this does not mean that he should teach Dhamma to those who will abuse Dhamma. **** Nina> Best wishes Lukas #126898 From: Herman Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 egberdina Hello Jagkrit, On 4 October 2012 12:19, jagkrit2012 wrote: > ** > > > > Dear Nina, all > > I looked in Apidhamma Tipitika, dhammasungkini said about "Sovachassata" > character of the one who is easy to speak to as you mentioned above. > > I hope that you can elaborate more of this among the one who is easy to > speak to and the one who is difficult to speak to. > > Thank you and anumodhana > > I hope you don't mind me jumping in. Yes, there are those easy to speak to, and those difficult to speak to. And there are those eager to speak, and those reluctant to speak. And then there is this : 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." DN16 Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126899 From: Herman Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 egberdina Hi connie, On 4 October 2012 06:54, connie wrote: > ** > > > > phil, > < Won't you come along and Tiptoe Thru the Tulips with Meeeeee!? - Tiny > Tim > > Take another, serious dose of dhp47 (dsg126803). Take some for the > PoleDancer, too. > connie > > > > that drug, sounds intriguing > > I would not recommend DMT-type stuff for those who are not practiced in mindfulness. There is nothing about anatta that serves to recommend it. -- Cheers Herman You do not know what you do not know #126900 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 7:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Hello Herman Thank you very much for your sutta citing concern speaking of dhammas by bhikkhus, community or elder which should be traceble and verified according to discourse and discipline. This sutta shows that one must carefully listen any dhamma speaking by checking with Tipitika and explanation. However, sometime, one speaks dhamma to correct or point out any kilesa of other. If the other is easy to speak to, he will deriberate that correction and accept with respect it if it is right. Opposite to those who are dificult to speak to, they will always deny and find some defense for their fault. I think their some suttes mentions about this matters as well. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126901 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 szmicio Hi Herman, connie > > > > that drug, sounds intriguing > > > > > I would not recommend DMT-type stuff for those who are not practiced in > mindfulness. There is nothing about anatta that serves to recommend it. L: I would not recommend this also for all those who wants to realy develop right understanding and awarness. personally i never take psychodelic drugs, i dont like something covers my own way of reasoning, no matter how deep it is. But my brother, recommends it to all, as terapeutic effect in it. Best wishes Lukas #126902 From: Herman Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 egberdina Hi Lukas, On 4 October 2012 19:59, szmicio wrote: > ** > > > Hi Herman, connie > > > > > > > that drug, sounds intriguing > > > > > > > > I would not recommend DMT-type stuff for those who are not practiced in > > mindfulness. There is nothing about anatta that serves to recommend it. > > L: I would not recommend this also for all those who wants to realy > develop right understanding and awarness. > > personally i never take psychodelic drugs, i dont like something covers my > own way of reasoning, no matter how deep it is. > > But my brother, recommends it to all, as terapeutic effect in it. > > Thanks for your comments. You are easy to speak to :-) It does not matter about the psychedelic drugs, they only make the heavens more blissful, the hells more terrible, and the insight more penetrating. The suttas, too, give the option of coming to insight in a few days rather than a million births. That sort of meditation will give exactly the same result as the psychedelic drugs, as long as the sila is in place. Cheers Herman > Best wishes > Lukas > > __._, > #126903 From: Herman Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. egberdina Hi Rob E, On 4 October 2012 16:01, epsteinrob wrote: > ** > > > Hi Sarah. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" > wrote: > > > > Dear Rob E, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > >There is a story about a Tibetan teacher who always told his students > that the people they were attached to were illusory. When his own son died, > he cried and grieved, and his students were angry. Why are you so > griefstricken if your son was an illusion? The teacher replied: "I know he > was an illusion, but he was such a beautiful illusion, I can't help but > grieve." > > ... > > S: Yes, I think the point is that it's better to have heard the truth > and to have some understanding about realities vs concepts. This doesn't > mean there won't be lots of attachment, grief and ignorance for a long time > to come. Thinking it should be otherwise would be wrong understanding of > what we've heard. > > And the student often expects the teacher to be perfect, which is also > wrong. > > Why would a "student", when the game is the ending of suffering, pay any attention to a "teacher" who is also suffering? Cheers Herman > Best, > Rob E. > #126904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 10:01 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We can easily mislead ourselves with regard to kusala and akusala. We should remember that all that is taught in the Abhidhamma concerns our daily life; it teaches reality and we have to verify what is taught ourselves. Do we confuse indifferent feeling with calm? Indifferent feeling can accompany kusala citta as well as akusala citta. The citta rooted in attachment can be accompanied by pleasant feeling but also by indifferent feeling, and the citta rooted in ignorance is invariably accompanied by indifferent feeling. Thus, we see that when indifferent feeling arises there is not necessarily calm, although feeling that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant may seem calm to us. When we consider more what has been taught about feeling, we shall realize how difficult it is to know the characteristic of true calm which is wholesome. Calm arises with kusala citta and the feeling can be pleasant or indifferent. There is seeing now. Are the cittas which arise shortly after seeing has fallen away kusala or akusala? When we are not engaged with dåna, síla or bhåvana, it must be akusala citta. Sense-impressions are usually followed by akusala cittas. The feeling may be indifferent, it may seem that we are not particularly glad about what is seen. Still, most of the time there is clinging. We cling to all our experiences, we want to go on seeing and hearing, we do not want to be without these experiences. We cling to life, we want to go on living and receiving sense-impressions. We think about the sense- impressions we experienced, about events that occurred, about people. When we are mindful of the cittas that think we can find out that these are mostly akusala cittas. Is there clinging now? So long as clinging has not been eradicated we have to be reborn. Even before the Buddha’s time there were wise people who saw the disadvantages of sense-impressions. They developed jhåna, a high degree of calm, in order to be temporarily freed from sense- impressions. The attainment of jhåna is extremely difficult and only those who have accumulated the right conditions for jhåna can attain it. But even if one has no conditions for the development of jhåna, there can still be moments of calm in daily life. However, right understanding which knows the characteristic of calm is essential. We should not forget that calm accompanies kusala citta and that it falls away with the citta; nobody can induce calm to stay on. Recollection of the Buddha (Buddhanusati) is one of the meditation subjects of samatha. When we reflect on the Buddha’s virtues moments of calm may arise, but akusala citta is bound to arise as well since akusala cittas arise time and again throughout our life. When we look at a Buddha statue there is likely to be clinging. We like seeing, we like visible object and we like thinking of what we have seen. The fact that it is a Buddha statue we look at cannot prevent us from clinging. We should not be discouraged by the akusala cittas which arise. If we think with aversion of our clinging there is akusala citta. At the moment of right understanding that knows akusala as akusala, there is kusala citta. Different cittas are arising and falling away all the time and, therefore, it is difficult to know them precisely. We should not delude ourselves into thinking that there is bhåvanå, merely because we sit in front of a Buddha statue and we recite some texts. When we pay respect to the Buddha there is an opportunity for kusala síla through body and speech. When we ponder over his virtues moments of calm can arise. Contemplation of the Buddha’s virtues is difficult for those who have not attained enlightenment. Can one really know what enlightenment means if one has not attained it oneself? However, when we have reflected upon the teachings and when we apply them in daily life, the Buddha’s wisdom, compassion and purity begin to have more meaning to us. Then there may be conditions for calm when we contemplate his virtues. The “Earth Kasina” (Visuddhimagga IV, 21) is another meditation subject. Not everybody who looks at a disk of clay can become calm, right understanding of this subject is indispensable. What is the purpose of the contemplation of this subject? To lessen clinging to sense objects. The terms Earth, Water, Fire and Wind represent the “Four Great Elements” which form up all physical phenomena. Is there not Earth (solidity), Water (fluidity), Fire (heat) and Wind (motion or oscillation) in all physical phenomena? Is there not solidity in our body and in all the things around us? Acharn Sujin said: “Everything around us is just earth in different shapes and forms. We are attached to it, we fight for it, but it is just earth.” Thus, if we see that all the things around us and also our body is just earth it can condition moments of detachment, of calm. We see that the meditation subject itself is no guarantee for calm, that the arising of calm depends on right understanding. -------- Nina. #126905 From: Tam Bach Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello-intro tambach Welcome to Hanoi, Kanchana. Looking forward to seeing you all! metta, Tam  Life is Meditation is Life http://www.thienvacuocsong.info/ http://www.trungtamhotong.org/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ http://www.buddhanet.net/ http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ http://sayadawutejaniya.org/teachings/ ________________________________ From: Kanchana Chuathong T Dear Tam,  My name is Kanchana and I am going to join the Dhamma discussion in Vietnam with Acharn Sujin and others in 4 - 14 Nov. 2012. Nice to see you soon. <...> #126906 From: Tam Bach Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello-intro tambach That's a good news to hear, Sarah ! Looking forward to Nov! Brgrds, Tam  Life is Meditation is Life http://www.thienvacuocsong.info/ http://www.trungtamhotong.org/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ http://www.buddhanet.net/ http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ http://sayadawutejaniya.org/teachings/ ________________________________ From: sarah So glad you've posted your nice intro and hope you're having a good trip. Hope you can continue to post from Vietnam. (I asked your friend, T.Tam is she could access DSG and she said she could.) Look forward to meeting you again soon. <...> #126907 From: Tam Bach Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 11:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello-intro tambach Thanks Sukin ! Am I already posting now from my e-mail account? But to post a new topic, how to do? For example, I want to ask about Yoniso manasikara now. I hope rains are decreasing in Bangkok and there will be no flooding in Nov! Brgrds, Tam  Life is Meditation is Life http://www.thienvacuocsong.info/ http://www.trungtamhotong.org/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ http://www.buddhanet.net/ http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ http://sayadawutejaniya.org/teachings/ ________________________________ From: sukinderpal narula Welcome to DSG. I hope that you will participate in the discussions and not just read in. If you have difficulty accessing the website, you could set your account to send individual posts to your mailbox. And from there you can then post your comments to here. <...> #126908 From: Tam Bach Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello-intro tambach Dear Robert, Thanks for all the info in your message. I totally agree with what you said about tanha for progress and the useless searching for object to observe. However, it seems to me that, when there is an interest to understand for the sake of understanding, it's not the same than tanha but rather wholesome, do you know what it is precisely? Another thing i would like to discuss is the Buddha's teaching on appropriate conditions (weather, place, food...etc). How do you understand this teaching? Brgrds, Tam Life is Meditation is Life http://www.thienvacuocsong.info/ http://www.trungtamhotong.org/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ http://www.buddhanet.net/ http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ http://sayadawutejaniya.org/teachings/ ________________________________ From: rjkjp1 it is nice to hear that my posts were a trigger for you to meet with A. Sujin, wish we could meet in Vietnam but I moved to Kuwait last month and my new appointment has many duties. There is another dsg member Scott , who saw a post of mine on esangha days and joined dsg, he is a real Dhamma prodigy, and was even learning Pali. Look out for his posts on the occasions when he writes. For myself I came to meet Sujin though Nina's books and writing handwritten letters to Nina, back in pre-internet days. As Kenh once said, "where would we be without Nina"! The Buddhist of these times are very keen on making progress as Phil mentioned, but as you know Rightview is the key to genuine progress, and that depends on wise consideration of Saddhadhamma. Effort is wrong unless it is with rightview. But when it is present with rightview and right thought and right concentration it assists sati to know any object without trying to change the object or trying to observe it. Those objects for satipatthana are arising constantly but satipatthana cannot arise if one starts searching for an object we think we should percieve: then there is tanha, not sati. <...> #126909 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 11:50 am Subject: New Topic - Tam sukinderpal Hi Tam, I clicked reply to your post and simply deleted the content and replaced the subject heading. Lets see if this works and is good enough. Sukin #126910 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 3:53 pm Subject: Re: New Topic - Tam ptaus1 Hi Tam (and Sukin), > I clicked reply to your post and simply deleted the content and replaced > the subject heading. That can definitely be done. In that way, there will be a new subject heading, but Yahoo will still keep your post in the same thread as the post you were replying to, so it will not start a completely new topic with its own brand new thread. If you want to start a completely new topic with a new thread via email (so not through Yahoo homepage), then I think you'd need to compose a New email, rather than Reply to an earlier one from DSG. When you are composing a new email, the address to send it to should be: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com I hope that works. Of course, the easiest way to start a new topic is on DSG Yahoo homepage (if you can access it) - when you are signed in, there's a "Start Topic" link in blue letters there in the top right corner. Best wishes pt #126911 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 5:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello-intro rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for all the info in your message. > > I totally agree with what you said about tanha for progress and the useless searching for object to observe. However, it seems to me that, when there is an interest to understand for the sake of understanding, it's not the same than tanha but rather wholesome, do you know what it is precisely? > > __________ Dear Tam Yes, well that is the tricky part. Viriya and Chanda, energy and interest, arise with kusala and akusala. When there is understanding there cannot be any attachment - there is simply understanding arising with chanda and viriya. Do you remember the talk Sariputta gave to Anuruddha.. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/saariputta.htm Anuruddha tells Sâriputta of his power of seeing the thousand fold world system, his unshaken energy, and his untroubled mindfulness. Sâriputta tells him that his deva sight is mere conceit, his claims to energy conceit, and his mindfulness just worrying, and exhorts him to abandon thoughts of them all. . A.i.281f. So that was Anuruddha with genuine attainments, where do we stand? robert #126912 From: "philip" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Listening to the Perfections (1 - hearing Lodewijk's voice.) philofillet Hi all Just wanted to add a kind of a correction to what I wrote below: > We have to be aware that eternalism creeps in here, but there is also correct understanding that kusala citta falls away and conditions the arising of further kusala. That made me feel very confident as I walked along the street, listening, and it would have probably been a very good moment to get hit by a car and killed! Because soon after that that confidence and understanding were not arising, I was thinking about baseball and sex, as usual. But now as I write, confidence and understanding again. Quick! Where's that car? Ph: This thinking of mine, while veiled in a black humour joke, indicates a mistaken belief. There is a tendency to believe that the state of mind at the time of death will determine the rebirth citta. I have heard that there is a custom, natural enough according to common sense, to try to manipulate death bed situations by reciting Dhamma so that kusala cittas will be arising for the dying one at the time of passing and thereby create conditions for a favourable rebirth. That is natural enough to want to do, and I think I have heard that A.Sujin did it for her father (sorry if that is mistaken) it is comforting for the people around, and that is good. But the rebirth citta can be conditioned by any past kamma, it is understandable but mistaken to believe that it is more likely conditioned by the state of mind at the time of passing. Another example of how common sense does not always or usually apply in the understanding of Dhamma. Please correct if I am mistaken in what I wrote here, thanks. Phil #126913 From: "philofillet" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 7:29 pm Subject: Listening to the Perfections (2 - the dana of giving Dhamma) philofillet Hello all Listened to a few minutes of Perfections today. I heard three things that stick with me: - if we are not able to give away material goods, how will we ever be able to relinquish nama and rupa, to do away with clinging to self. - if there is a desire for favourable results through dana rather than the desire (wholesome chanda, I suppose) to do away with defilements, the result will not be good. - the most superior form of dana is the gift of Dhamma. That's as far as I heard. But I thought that obviously the gift of Dhamma must be accompanied by panna, unlike other kinds of dana. For if one is teaching the wrong Dhamma (as is usually the case in the world today) how can it be a pefection, let alone kusala? So I guess the dana that is the gift of Dhamma is the most superior form of dana but is also the most rarefied, for it must be based in a correct understanding of Dhamma. Phil #126914 From: "philip" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 7:30 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Hi Jagkrit > JJ: Thank you Phil, lobha with wrong view is the first kilesa that panna will eradicate as you recalled and explained with sotapannatimak above. And in 16 Vipassana nana stages in Survery of Paramattha Dhamma, the first 3 stages mention about insight of nama and rupa, their conditions and their arising and falling continuously which reflects understanding right view of anatta. Thank you for the explanation. Phil #126915 From: "philofillet" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 7:51 pm Subject: Re: Poland 2 philofillet Hi Connie >>>> Take another, serious dose of dhp47 (dsg126803). Take some for the PoleDancer, too. Thanks for the reminder, that is what Dhamma friends are for. I do feel that the drugs I've done in the past have opened the mind's capacity for contemplation in some way, but they have also destroyed a lot of brain cells and planted a lot of fascinating concepts that turned out to be crapola. Thanks also re the Pole Dancer. I will stop tucking dollar bills in her garter belt and place perfectly plucked Dhamma passages instead! Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > phil, > < Won't you come along and Tiptoe Thru the Tulips with Meeeeee!? - Tiny Tim > > > connie > > > > > that drug, sounds intriguing > #126916 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 8:07 pm Subject: MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta (2) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta: The Great Forty Paa.li text from http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ The translation by Ven Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. (VIEW) Tatra, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi pubba"ngamaa hoti. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi pubba"ngamaa hoti? Micchaadi.t.thi.m 'micchaadi.t.thii'ti pajaanaati, sammaadi.t.thi.m 'sammaadi.t.thii'ti pajaanaati saassa hoti sammaadi.t.thi. 4. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. [Note 1100] And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view. [Note 1101] [Note 1100] Pubba"ngamaa, lit. "the forerunner." MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements. The right view of insight as the forerunner seems to be shown in §§4, 10, 16, 22 and 28; the right view of the path as forerunner in §§34 and 35. [Note 1101] This statement suggests that in order to acquire right view about the nature of reality, one must first be able to distinguish between wrong and right teachings on the nature of reality. MA says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc., and which understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion. ---------- "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, micchaadi.t.thi? 'Natthi dinna.m, natthi yi.t.tha.m, natthi huta.m, natthi sukatadukka.taana.m kammaana.m phala.m vipaako, natthi aya.m loko, natthi paro loko, natthi maataa, natthi pitaa, natthi sattaa opapaatikaa, natthi loke sama.nabraahma.naa sammaggataa sammaapa.tipannaa ye ima~nca loka.m para~nca loka.m saya.m abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa pavedentii'ti aya.m, bhikkhave, micchaadi.t.thi. 5. "And what, bhikkhus, is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father, no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have realized for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.' This is wrong view. ----------- "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi? Sammaadi.t.thi.mpaha.m, bhikkhave, dvaaya.m vadaami atthi, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa; atthi, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa. 6. "And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment [Note 1102]; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path. [Note 1102] This is mundane right view, a meritorious factor that conduces to a favourable rebirth but cannot by itself issue in a transcendence of conditioned existence. ---------- Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa? 'Atthi dinna.m, atthi yi.t.tha.m, atthi huta.m, atthi sukatadukka.taana.m kammaana.m phala.m vipaako, atthi aya.m loko, atthi paro loko, atthi maataa, atthi pitaa, atthi sattaa opapaatikaa, atthi loke sama.nabraahma.naa sammaggataa sammaapa.tipannaa ye ima~nca loka.m para~nca loka.m saya.m abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa pavedentii'ti aya.m, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa. 7. "And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realized for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.' This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment. ---------- "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa? Yaa kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anaasavacittassa ariyamaggasama"ngino ariyamagga.m bhaavayato pa~n~naa pa~n~nindriya.m pa~n~naabala.m dhammavicayasambojjha"ngo sammaadi.t.thi magga"nga.m aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa. 8. "And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path [Note 1103]: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path. [Note 1103] This definition defines supramundane right view as the wisdom (pa~n~naa) found among the requisites of enlightenment as a faculty, power, enlightenment factor, and path factor. The definition is formulated by way of the cognitive function rather than the objective content of the view. Elsewhere (MN 141.24) the right view of the path is defined as knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. We may understand that the conceptual comprehension of the four truths falls under mundane right view, while the direct penetration of the truths by realising Nibbana with the path constitutes supramundane right view. ---------- So micchaadi.t.thiyaa pahaanaaya vaayamati, sammaadi.t.thiyaa, upasampadaaya, svaassa hoti sammaavaayaamo. So sato micchaadi.t.thi.m pajahati, sato sammaadi.t.thi.m upasampajja viharati, saassa hoti sammaasati. Itiyime tayo dhammaa sammaadi.t.thi.m anuparidhaavanti anuparivattanti, seyyathida.m sammaadi.t.thi, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati. 9. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong view and to enter upon right view: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong view, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right view: this is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three states run and circle around right view, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness. [Note 1104] [Note 1104] MA: They accompany right view as its co-existents and precursors. Right effort and right mindfulness are co-existent with supramundane right view; the right view of insight is the precursor of supramundane right view. ---------- Han: It is easier for me to understand the difference between sammaadi.t.thi and micchaadi.t.thi. But it needs a bit of studying to understand the two kinds of sammaadi.t.thi, namely, (i) right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment [sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa], and (ii) right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path [sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa]. This is true for other Path factors as well. The Paa.li term "upadhivepakkaa" which Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translates as "ripening on the side of attachment" contains the important word "upadhi." The PTS Dictionary gives it's meaning as (i) foundation, basis, ground, substratum (of rebirth); (ii) clinging to rebirth, attachment. To be continued. with metta, Han #126917 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 9:43 pm Subject: Re: Hello-intro szmicio Dear Robert, > Sâriputta tells him that his deva sight is mere conceit, his claims to energy conceit, and his mindfulness just worrying, and exhorts him to abandon thoughts of them all. . A.i.281f. > > So that was Anuruddha with genuine attainments, where do we stand? L: Very good reminder. Best wishes Lukas #126918 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Lukas and Nina, I thank Lukas very much for re-posting the messages on Issaa and Macchariya. I also thank Nina very much for the very clear remarks about these two cetasikas. I am also grateful to Nina for pointing out that these two sa.myojanas are eradicated by Sotaapatti magga. I recently came across an article by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi: The Problem of Conflict by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_13.html The following is an excerpt from that article. Quote: [Once, in ancient India, Sakka the ruler of the gods came to the Buddha and asked: "By what bonds are people bound whereby, though they wish to live in peace, without hate and hostility, they yet live in conflict, with hate and hostility." The Master replied: "It is the bonds of envy and avarice that so bind people that, though they wish to live in peace, they live in conflict, with hate and hostility." If we trace external conflicts back to their source, we will find that they originate not in wealth, position or possessions, but in the mind itself. They spring up because we envy others for the qualities they possess which we desire for ourselves, and because we are driven by an unquenchable avarice to extend the boundaries of what we can label "mine." Envy and avarice in turn are grounded in two more fundamental psychological conditions. Envy arises because we identify things as "I," because we perpetually seek to establish a personal identity for ourselves internally and to project that identity outward for others to recognize and accept. Avarice arises because we appropriate: we attempt to carve out a territory for ourselves and to furnish that territory with possessions that will titillate our greed and sense of self-importance. Conflict being thus rooted in envy and avarice, it follows that the path to non-conflict must be a course of relinquishment, of removing the constrictive thoughts and desires that pivot around the notions of "I" and "mine," the drives to identify and to possess. This course reaches consummation with the full maturity of wisdom, with insight into the empty, egoless nature of all phenomena; for it is this insight which exposes the hollowness of the notions of "I" and "mine" that underlie envy and avarice. However, although the final liberation from clinging may lie far away, the path leading to it is a gradual one, growing out of simpler, more basic steps that lie very close to our feet.] End Quote. --------------- Dear Nina, I have one question for you. Issaa-sa.myojana and Macchariya-sa.myojana are not included in the Ten Fetters in the Suttas. But they are included in the Ten fetters in Abhidhamma, both in Dhammasa"nga.nii and in Vibha"nga. Do you know the reason why this is so? with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 10/4/12, Lukas wrote: Dear friends, This is another, very helpful to me post. Dhamma is everything that is real. Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 173, avarice. #126919 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post szmicio Dear Han and Nina I will also join to your questions, and ask what are sa.myojanas, cause I really dont know. Is it one of the kilesas or asavas? How all this akusalas that was discern by Blessed One by different names differs from each other? I like very much to consider all: macchariya and issa in my life. Very nice to know the truth, even a little. I like to consider them and learn as a dhammas performing it's own functions now. Best wishes Lukas p.s You can find more in Khun Nina's Cetasikas under Akusala cetasikas. There is a big section on issa(envy), macchariya(stinginess) and kukucca(regret). I've got very old typed on machine copy, I got from Gabi. Very sentimental thing. I read from time to time. Very helpful in tough times. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Lukas and Nina, > > I thank Lukas very much for re-posting the messages on Issaa and Macchariya. > I also thank Nina very much for the very clear remarks about these two cetasikas. > I am also grateful to Nina for pointing out that these two sa.myojanas are eradicated by Sotaapatti magga. > > I recently came across an article by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > The Problem of Conflict by Bhikkhu Bodhi > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_13.html > > The following is an excerpt from that article. > > Quote: [Once, in ancient India, Sakka the ruler of the gods came to the Buddha and asked: "By what bonds are people bound whereby, though they wish to live in peace, without hate and hostility, they yet live in conflict, with hate and hostility." The Master replied: "It is the bonds of envy and avarice that so bind people that, though they wish to live in peace, they live in conflict, with hate and hostility." If we trace external conflicts back to their source, we will find that they originate not in wealth, position or possessions, but in the mind itself. They spring up because we envy others for the qualities they possess which we desire for ourselves, and because we are driven by an unquenchable avarice to extend the boundaries of what we can label "mine." > > Envy and avarice in turn are grounded in two more fundamental psychological conditions. Envy arises because we identify things as "I," because we perpetually seek to establish a personal identity for ourselves internally and to project that identity outward for others to recognize and accept. Avarice arises because we appropriate: we attempt to carve out a territory for ourselves and to furnish that territory with possessions that will titillate our greed and sense of self-importance. > > Conflict being thus rooted in envy and avarice, it follows that the path to non-conflict must be a course of relinquishment, of removing the constrictive thoughts and desires that pivot around the notions of "I" and "mine," the drives to identify and to possess. This course reaches consummation with the full maturity of wisdom, with insight into the empty, egoless nature of all phenomena; for it is this insight which exposes the hollowness of the notions of "I" and "mine" that underlie envy and avarice. However, although the final liberation from clinging may lie far away, the path leading to it is a gradual one, growing out of simpler, more basic steps that lie very close to our feet.] End Quote. > > --------------- > > Dear Nina, I have one question for you. > Issaa-sa.myojana and Macchariya-sa.myojana are not included in the Ten Fetters in the Suttas. > But they are included in the Ten fetters in Abhidhamma, both in Dhammasa"nga.nii and in Vibha"nga. > Do you know the reason why this is so? > > with metta and respect, > Han > > --- On Thu, 10/4/12, Lukas wrote: > Dear friends, > This is another, very helpful to me post. Dhamma is everything that is real. > Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 173, avarice. > #126920 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 12:26 am Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The “Brahmavihåras” (Divine Abidings) which are mettå, karunå (compassion), muditå, altruistic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity) are among the meditation subjects of samatha, but they are qualities that should be developed in daily life. We often are in the company of other people or we are thinking of them. It is more valuable to think of others with kusala citta than with clinging or with aversion. When someone speaks unpleasant words to us we can think of him as a fellow- being who makes himself unhappy because of his defilements and then compassion can arise instead of anger. When we have more understanding of our own defilements as conditioned realities, we shall also see other people’s defilements as conditioned realities that do not belong to anyone. When we think of the benefit of those around us it will help us to be patient. We ourselves do not like to suffer, we want happiness, but it is the same with other people. People may let us down but don’t we let others down too, Bhante Dhammadharo remarked. He reminded us in a very direct way to develop mettå, saying: “What about the person sitting next to you? Are you really considerate of his welfare? Do you truly wish that he is happy and that he has no problems at home?” The “Visuddhimagga” (IX, 1,2) states about the development of mettå: “... To start with he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience. Why? Because hate has to be abandoned and patience attained in the development of this meditation subject and he cannot abandon unseen danger and attain unknown advantages....” We see that the “Visuddhimagga” emphasizes right understanding of the meditation subject. Attachment is the “near enemy” of mettå (Vis. IX, 98). Mettå is impartial love; it is not love only for one particular person; we should consider all beings as friends, no matter who they are, no matter whether we know them or whether they are strangers. We are attached to people and we also encourage them to be attached to us. We want to be well liked, we want to be object of clinging. Acharn Sujin said: “It is kindness to others if we don’t cling to them or encourage them to be attached to us.” Mettå is love without any selfish motives. ------- Nina. #126921 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello-intro nilovg Dear Tam Bach, Op 4-okt-2012, om 15:48 heeft Tam Bach het volgende geschreven: > I totally agree with what you said about tanha for progress and the > useless searching for object to observe. However, it seems to me > that, when there is an interest to understand for the sake of > understanding, it's not the same than tanha but rather wholesome, > do you know what it is precisely? -------- N: It has to be known whether the citta now is kusala or akusala and this is not easy since different cittas succeed one another very rapidly. Tanhaa or sincere interest to understand the present moment, these moments are not self, arise because of conditions. Whatever arises now can gradully be understood as a conditioned dhamma. ------ > > T: Another thing i would like to discuss is the Buddha's teaching > on appropriate conditions (weather, place, food...etc). How do you > understand this teaching? ------ N: He spoke about Kuru as having the right climate and conditions for people to receive the teaching of satipa.t.thaana. We cannot choose such conditions. ----- Nina. #126922 From: "connie" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 7:05 am Subject: Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post nichiconn dear Han, Lukas, just a side note* to your questions on samyojana: of the 10 kilesa / mental defilements (etc): only craving is samudayasacca; the (multitude) paccaya, cause, origin, condition... are all suffering (truth), samudaya. peace, connie *(chewdhamma) yamaka** talks. ** "if you read it, you will not understand ... without explanation"! ps. on anusaya: anu / proper condition saya / arising when there is the proper conditions, it arises. kaamaraaga anusaya - craving for sense pleasure, desire for object undesireable object + unwise att'n --> anger striking / lighter -- must be empty of 'gas' or possibility of fire remains http://saccayamaka.blogspot.com/ > what are sa.myojanas, > > > Issaa-sa.myojana and Macchariya-sa.myojana are not included in the Ten Fetters in the Suttas. #126923 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Lukas (Nina), Yes, Nina has given us all the information about Issaa and Macchariya. Sa.myojanas (Fetters) are unwholesome mental factors which bind beings to the round of existence. There are Ten Sa.myojanas (Fetters). According to (Suttanta Method) they are: (1) Sakkaayadi.t.thi-sa.myojana, (2) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana, (3) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana, (4) kaamacchanda-sa.myojana, (5) byaapaada-sa.myojana, (6) ruuparaaga-sa.myojana, (7) aruuparaaga-sa.myojana, (8) maana-sa.myojana, (9) uddhacca-sa.myojana, (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana. According to (Abhidhamma Method) they are: (1) kaamaraaga-sa.myojana, (2) pa.tigha-sa.myojana,(3) maana-sa.myojana, (4) di.t.thi-sa.myojana, (5) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana, (6) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana, (7) bhavaraaga-sa.myojana, (8) issaa-sa.myojana, (9) macchariya-sa.myojana, (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana. I was asking Nina whether there is any reason why we have two sets of sa.myojanas? with metta nd respect, Han --- On Fri, 10/5/12, szmicio wrote: Dear Han and Nina I will also join to your questions, and ask what are sa.myojanas, cause I really dont know. Is it one of the kilesas or asavas? How all this akusalas that was discern by Blessed One by different names differs from each other? I like very much to consider all: macchariya and issa in my life. Very nice to know the truth, even a little. I like to consider them and learn as a dhammas performing it's own functions now. Best wishes Lukas p.s You can find more in Khun Nina's Cetasikas under Akusala cetasikas. There is a big section on issa(envy), macchariya(stinginess) and kukucca(regret). I've got very old typed on machine copy, I got from Gabi. Very sentimental thing. I read from time to time. Very helpful in tough times. #126924 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Connie, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I have no difficulty in understanding Sa.myojanas. What I am looking for is: Is there any reason why we have two sets of Ten Sa.myojanas, one set in Suttas, and the other different set in Abhidhamma? with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 10/6/12, connie wrote: dear Han, Lukas, just a side note* to your questions on samyojana: of the 10 kilesa / mental defilements (etc): only craving is samudayasacca; the (multitude) paccaya, cause, origin, condition... are all suffering (truth), samudaya. peace, connie *(chewdhamma) yamaka** talks. ** "if you read it, you will not understand ... without explanation"! ps. on anusaya: anu / proper condition saya / arising when there is the proper conditions, it arises. kaamaraaga anusaya - craving for sense pleasure, desire for object undesireable object + unwise att'n --> anger striking / lighter -- must be empty of 'gas' or possibility of fire remains http://saccayamaka.blogspot.com/ > what are sa.myojanas, > > > Issaa-sa.myojana and Macchariya-sa.myojana are not included in the Ten Fetters in the Suttas. #126925 From: Herman Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello-intro egberdina Hi Robert and Tam, On 5 October 2012 17:32, rjkjp1 wrote: > ** > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > > > Dear Robert, > > > > Thanks for all the info in your message. > > > > I totally agree with what you said about tanha for progress and the > useless searching for object to observe. However, it seems to me that, when > there is an interest to understand for the sake of understanding, it's not > the same than tanha but rather wholesome, do you know what it is precisely? > > > > __________ > Dear Tam > Yes, well that is the tricky part. Viriya and Chanda, energy and interest, > arise with kusala and akusala. > When there is understanding there cannot be any attachment - there is > simply understanding arising with chanda and viriya. > > Do you remember the talk Sariputta gave to Anuruddha.. > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/saariputta.htm > Anuruddha tells Sâriputta of his power of seeing the thousand fold world > system, his unshaken energy, and his untroubled mindfulness. > > Sâriputta tells him that his deva sight is mere conceit, his claims to > energy conceit, and his mindfulness just worrying, and exhorts him to > abandon thoughts of them all. . A.i.281f. > > So that was Anuruddha with genuine attainments, where do we stand? > > robert > > Your question was probably rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway :-) In the sutta you refer to, Sariputta then advises the very easy to talk to Anuruddha to instead focus his mind on the deathless element. And so, Anuruddha became one of the arahants. Elsewhere, AN8:30m the Buddha confirms to Anuruddha the following: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Now then, Anuruddha, think the eighth thought of a great person: 'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-objectification, who delights in non-objectification, not for one who enjoys & delights in objectification.' The Buddha then goes on to explain this in terms of the life of a homeless recluse, who abides in the jhanas. That's where Anuruddha stood, and this is where we stand :-) -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126926 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 11:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello-intro kenhowardau Hi Tam, --- <. . .> > T: Another thing i would like to discuss is the Buddha's teaching on appropriate conditions (weather, place, food...etc). How do you understand this teaching? --- KH: I understand that teaching in the light of anatta. Therefore I understand there are ultimately only dhammas. There is nothing in addition to dhammas; there is no weather, place, food... (etc) inside them, or outside them, or pertaining to them in any way. Ken H #126927 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 2:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > ----------- > > S: some unanswered emails - trying to get up to date before the next trip on Wed! > ------------ > > KH: Thanks for your answer. I think we have both said what we wanted to say, I am just not ready to give you the last word. :-) > > ------ > >> KH: <. . .> There are no wrong answers; everyone gets a pass. :-) > > > S: yes, only paramattha dhammas whatever we read about. That still doesn't mean you get a pass for your suggestion that the blind monk must have been an ariyan > ------- > > KH: I haven't been able to trace this thread back to the offending post; the trail seems to stop at 125038. But I certainly shouldn't have said the monk *must* have been an ariyan. I should have said that was a possibility. It was a possible interpretation that an amateur sutta-interpreter might reasonably make (in the absence of evidence to the contrary). > > -------------- Dear ken and sarah, The monk was an arahant. Here is Kenh original post. trong languGe wont make us blush. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Rob K, > > --- > <. . .> > > S: I'll let Ken explain his own meaning. > --- > > KH: Maybe I should have made it clearer to Robert; it's the Religious Right fanatics, who oppose a woman's right to choose, that make abortion a sensitive topic for me. I am likely to say something regrettable about them. Otherwise, I have no qualms about it. > > I think a doctor who is required to perform abortions is in the same boat as the blind monk (in the suttas) who walked on caterpillars. > > Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. > > The monk was not blamed because he had right understanding. He knew in ultimate reality there were no caterpillars, no monks, and no physical activities. There were only dhammas, rising and falling by conditions, beyond anyone's control. > > In explanations of satipatthana it is always wrong view or right view that is blamed or praised, it is never a permanent, controlling, being. > > Ken H #126928 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post szmicio Dear connie, > just a side note* to your questions on samyojana: > of the 10 kilesa / mental defilements (etc): only craving is samudayasacca; the (multitude) paccaya, cause, origin, condition... are all suffering (truth), samudaya. L: You mean, all paccayas and craving are only dukkhasamudayasaccca? > *(chewdhamma) yamaka** talks. > ** "if you read it, you will not understand ... without explanation"! L: Do we have any english translation on Yamaka? > ps. on anusaya: > > anu / proper condition saya / arising when there is the proper conditions, it arises. L: so samyojanas are only those that blinds us particulary in a circle of birth and death. Lead for more rebirths? Best wishes Lukas #126929 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. kenhowardau Hi Robert K, Thanks for finding this: ---- > RK: Here is Kenh original post. trong languGe wont make us blush. <. . .> >> KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. >> ---- KH: Hmmm, I can see now how that could have been taken the wrong way. There can be no doubt: the monk did *not* intentionally kill anything. I certainly didn't mean it suggest he did. *But* (according to my theory at the time) that was not why the Buddha found the monk blameless. According to my theory, the Buddha was speaking in praise of the 8fold path (which makes travellers on it permanently incapable of killing). ---------------- >> KH: He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. ---------------- KH: It is impossible not to kill some kind of sentient being by our "intentional" daily activities. Just by breathing we run the risk of killing airborne microbes. So I could just as well have said "he intentionally breathed even though he knew there were airborne microbes . . ." He didn't intend to kill, but he did intend to breathe (or walk) and for the creatures involved the result was the same. So when I said: ------------- >> I think a doctor who is required to perform abortions is in the same boat as the blind monk (in the suttas) who walked on caterpillars. >> ------------- That wasn't such an extreme statement, was it? A doctor can be contractually obliged to help women in legal ways as directed by a hospital. Therefore his daily duties can include [intentionally] acting in ways that might have unfortunate consequences. The consequences aren't necessarily "intended" but the operations are. The result is the same. I hope I have made my theory a bit clearer, it's not easy. But what exactly was the problem with it? (And where was the strong language?) Ken H #126930 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 3:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post szmicio Dear Han, Can u give an english translation for these? I know that for example in Vibhangapali, second book of Abhidhamma, there are usually 3 ways of explanation: By Sutta method, By Abhidhamma method and interogation method. But it still doeant answer why there are 2 sets of fetters. Best wishes Lukas > There are Ten Sa.myojanas (Fetters). > > According to (Suttanta Method) they are: > > (1) Sakkaayadi.t.thi-sa.myojana, (2) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana, (3) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana, (4) kaamacchanda-sa.myojana, (5) byaapaada-sa.myojana, (6) ruuparaaga-sa.myojana, (7) aruuparaaga-sa.myojana, (8) maana-sa.myojana, (9) uddhacca-sa.myojana, (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana. > > According to (Abhidhamma Method) they are: > > (1) kaamaraaga-sa.myojana, (2) pa.tigha-sa.myojana,(3) maana-sa.myojana, (4) di.t.thi-sa.myojana, (5) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana, (6) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana, (7) bhavaraaga-sa.myojana, (8) issaa-sa.myojana, (9) macchariya-sa.myojana, (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana. > > I was asking Nina whether there is any reason why we have two sets of sa.myojanas? #126931 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 3:56 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, What is the difference between mettå and karunå? We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (Ch IX, 93, 94) that the proximate cause of mettå is seeing lovableness in beings and that the proximate cause of compassion is seeing helplessness in those who are overwhelmed by suffering. When we think of someone else’s suffering and we want to allay this there is karunå. However, when someone is suffering we can easily have aversion towards his condition and that is why the near enemy of karunå is “grief based on the homelife” (Vis. Ch IX, 99). Right understanding can know precisely when pure compassion arises and when aversion; if the difference is not known calm based on karunå cannot be developed. Muditå, altruistic joy, is another quality which is among the Brahmavihåras. It has as its proximate cause “seeing beings’ success” (Vis. Ch IX, 95). When we are envious of other people’s happiness there is no muditå. It is not easy to know the difference between altruistic joy and attachment, but if one does not know this the quality of altruistic joy cannot be developed. When other people are successful or when they obtain a pleasant object such as praise we may easily have envy. When we see the value of kusala and the danger of akusala, there may be conditions for altruistic joy instead of jealousy. My husband had received a decoration of honour and I asked Bhante Dhammadharo whether my gladness about it could be muditå. The Bhante answered that one can easily be attached instead of having muditå where it concerns one’s husband or wife. When there is muditå there should also be impartiality. One should be equally glad about the success of someone else and is that so? I had to admit that this was not the case. It is difficult to be impartial when it concerns those who are near and dear to us. Upekkhå, equanimity, is another Brahmavihåra. Its characteristic is promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings (Vis. Ch IX, 96). Seeing beings’ ownership of kamma is its proximate cause. For example, when we see someone who suffers but he is beyond help, there can be equanimity instead of aversion, if we realize that he has to receive the result of the kamma he performed. Through equanimity there can be calm amidst the vicissitutes of life. One day there is praise, but the next day there will be blame; one day there is gain, but the next day there will be loss. The “Visuddhimagga” (Ch IX, 96) states that the manifestation of upekkhå is the quieting of resentment and approval. We can learn to see that it is beneficial to have less attachment to pleasant objects and less aversion towards unpleasant objects. The experience of such objects depends on kamma that produces its result accordingly, it does not depend on our will. The Brahmavihåras are difficult to develop because of our defilements. They can only be developed if there is a precise knowledge of kusala as kusala and of akusala as akusala. ------- Nina. #126932 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Lukas, According to (Suttanta Method) they are: (1) Sakkaayadi.t.thi-sa.myojana (personality wrong views), (2) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana (doubt), (3) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana (adherence to rites and ceremonies), (4) kaamaraaga-sa.myojana (sensual lust), (5) byaapaada-sa.myojana (aversion), (6) ruuparaaga-sa.myojana (attachment to fine-material existence), (7) aruuparaaga-sa.myojana (attachment to immaterial existence), (8) maana-sa.myojana (conceit), (9) uddhacca-sa.myojana (restlessness), (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana (ignorance). According to (Abhidhamma Method) they are: (1) kaamaraaga-sa.myojana (sensual lust), (2) pa.tigha-sa.myojana (aversion),(3) maana-sa.myojana (conceit), (4) di.t.thi-sa.myojana (wrong views), (5) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana (doubt), (6) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana (adherence to rites and ceremonies), (7) bhavaraaga-sa.myojana (attachment to existence), (8) issaa-sa.myojana (envy), (9) macchariya-sa.myojana (avarice), (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana (ignorance). I do not know the 3 ways of explanation. with metta, Han --- On Sat, 10/6/12, szmicio wrote: Dear Han, Can u give an english translation for these? I know that for example in Vibhangapali, second book of Abhidhamma, there are usually 3 ways of explanation: By Sutta method, By Abhidhamma method and interogation method. But it still doeant answer why there are 2 sets of fetters. Best wishes Lukas #126933 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 6:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, #126264 on kamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >S: For example, now there is seeing which sees visible object, thinking a lot about what is seen because of vitakka and other mental factors. There's no intention to harm or kill now. So, it's just the same, wherever we are - just vipaka cittas followed by kusala or akusala cittas depending on conditions and accumulations. In truth, no person, no sotapanna, no opposing army. > >R: I am still wondering though about the 'act' and the 'being' in kamma-patha. If there is no action and no being, how does the kamma-patha take place? ... S: Just cittas, cetasikas and rupas as usual. As discussed, kamma is cetana which accompanies kusala or akusala cittas and which may condition speech or bodily intimation, and other rupas. ... >Both kusala and akusala kamma-patha are dependent on both an action taking place, and an intention towards a being. So even for the sotapanna, if he creates kusala kamma-patha, he must do something and have the thought of a being in mind. Is that not so? ... S: Not necessarily so. For example, at moments of right understanding of realities, it is kusala kamma and no thought of any being. At moments of dana, for example, there is thought of a being in mind, but no wrong view at such a time. ... >And if that is so, what happens to the idea that he sees that there really are no beings? Does he see that there are no beings and yet intend an action towards the being at the same time? What if he intends kindness or metta towards a being, does he think at the same time 'there is no being' and yet continue to intend it? ... S: Like now. If there is metta to friends here or if a gift is given, there are just kusala cittas with the other's welfare at heart. At such times, no wrong views at all. Later there may be wrong ideas about beings existing or there many be right understanding of realities. Right understanding doesn't mean no more thoughts about your wife, your daughter or friends! Metta Sarah ===== #126934 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Lukas, Lukas: I know that for example in Vibhangapali, second book of Abhidhamma, there are usually 3 ways of explanation: By Sutta method, By Abhidhamma method and interogation method. But it still doeant answer why there are 2 sets of fetters. Han: I had just replied to you that I do not know the three ways of explanation. After sending my message to you, I refer to the book on Vibha"nga. There I find the three ways of explanation. (1) by general discourses (Suttantabhaajaniiya), (2) by technical analysis and definitions (Abhidhammabhaajaniiya), (3) by interrogation (Pa~nhaapucchaka). But for the Fetters there is no three way explanation. Only a small paragraph of just 5 lines. I am writing this to thank you very much, because you make me read the book. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 10/6/12, szmicio wrote: Dear Han, Can u give an english translation for these? I know that for example in Vibhangapali, second book of Abhidhamma, there are usually 3 ways of explanation: By Sutta method, By Abhidhamma method and interogation method. But it still doeant answer why there are 2 sets of fetters. Best wishes Lukas #126935 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 8:07 pm Subject: Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post szmicio Dear Han, Vibhanga is my favourite book. I dont go anywhere without it. I like to recall dhatus and ayatanas from there. Especially dhatus, element of attachment, element of anger and element of cruelty, where the element of cruelty is not only anger, this is more deep for the level of bad actions, akusala-kammapatha. I like to learn all of these are just elements no-self. There are other 3 elements that are opposite. 6 at all. Just a couple of off-top thoughts. This way of learning is vibhajjavada. As I recall for some of the instances/chapters there is not always 3 ways of classification or analysis, as u mentioned. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > Lukas: I know that for example in Vibhangapali, second book of Abhidhamma, there are usually 3 ways of explanation: By Sutta method, By Abhidhamma method and interogation method. But it still doeant answer why there are 2 sets of fetters. > > Han: I had just replied to you that I do not know the three ways of explanation. > After sending my message to you, I refer to the book on Vibha"nga. > There I find the three ways of explanation. > (1) by general discourses (Suttantabhaajaniiya), > (2) by technical analysis and definitions (Abhidhammabhaajaniiya), > (3) by interrogation (Pa~nhaapucchaka). > > But for the Fetters there is no three way explanation. Only a small paragraph of just 5 lines. > > I am writing this to thank you very much, because you make me read the book. > > with metta and respect, > Han > > --- On Sat, 10/6/12, szmicio wrote: > Dear Han, > Can u give an english translation for these? > I know that for example in Vibhangapali, second book of Abhidhamma, there are usually 3 ways of explanation: By Sutta method, By Abhidhamma method and interogation method. But it still doeant answer why there are 2 sets of fetters. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #126936 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 8:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post szmicio Dear Han, I just d like to share some more thoughts on that. > Han: I had just replied to you that I do not know the three ways of explanation. > After sending my message to you, I refer to the book on Vibha"nga. > There I find the three ways of explanation. > (1) by general discourses (Suttantabhaajaniiya), > (2) by technical analysis and definitions (Abhidhammabhaajaniiya), > (3) by interrogation (Pa~nhaapucchaka). L: As you see 3 ways of classification. The same with Acharn Sujin, she knows this perfectly. She can give a discurse on Suttas, to inspire people to have more kusala. She can give Abhidhamma talk, to show us realities or she can start to examine, as u see pa~nhaapucchaka. This 3rd one is very helpful also. It takes mind, it hits mind so it can know and understand. 'No question and answers' as Acharn said once - 'just vitaka'. Best wishes Lukas #126937 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 8:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Lukas, Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with me. I really appreciate it. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 10/6/12, szmicio wrote: Dear Han, I just d like to share some more thoughts on that. L: As you see 3 ways of classification. The same with Acharn Sujin, she knows this perfectly. She can give a discurse on Suttas, to inspire people to have more kusala. She can give Abhidhamma talk, to show us realities or she can start to examine, as u see pa~nhaapucchaka. This 3rd one is very helpful also. It takes mind, it hits mind so it can know and understand. 'No question and answers' as Acharn said once - 'just vitaka'. Best wishes Lukas #126938 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 8:32 pm Subject: SPD pt.2 (22) (preventing anger) philofillet Dear Group Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "People ask what they should do to prevent anger. All dhammas are non-self (anatta) and thus also dana is anattaa. Dosa arises because of its appropriate conditions. That are people who can eradicate dosa for good, so that it does not arise again. Those people have developed panna and realized the Four Noble Truths to the degree of the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner (anaagamii.)" (57) (end of passage) Ph: The notion of preventing anger is just about as absurd as the notion of preventing attachment. Dosa has arisen for countless lifetimes, arises now, and will arise for many lifetimes to come. But this can be understood. Phil #126939 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Lukas, You are on the best approach in your learning process. The trouble with me is I have many books, but I cannot read much. Only when someone like you prompted me I read some more. Thank you very much once again. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 10/6/12, szmicio wrote: Dear Han, Vibhanga is my favourite book. I dont go anywhere without it. I like to recall dhatus and ayatanas from there. Especially dhatus, element of attachment, element of anger and element of cruelty, where the element of cruelty is not only anger, this is more deep for the level of bad actions, akusala-kammapatha. I like to learn all of these are just elements no-self. There are other 3 elements that are opposite. 6 at all. Just a couple of off-top thoughts. This way of learning is vibhajjavada. As I recall for some of the instances/chapters there is not always 3 ways of classification or analysis, as u mentioned. Best wishes Lukas #126940 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 4:23 pm Subject: MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta (3) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta: The Great Forty Paa.li text from http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ The translation by Ven Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. (INTENTION) 137. "Tatra, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi pubba"ngamaa hoti. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi pubba"ngamaa hoti? Micchaasa"nkappa.m 'micchaasa"nkappo'ti pajaanaati, sammaasa"nkappa.m 'sammaasa"nkappo'ti pajaanaati, saassa hoti sammaadi.t.thi . 10. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong intention as wrong intention and right intention as right intention: this is one's right view. [Note 1105] [Note 1105] MA explains this as the right view of insight which understands right intention by way of its function and by clearing away confusion. It seems, though, that a more elementary discrimination of the two kinds of intention is the issue. ----------- "Katamo ca, bhikkhave, micchaasa"nkappo? Kaamasa"nkappo, byaapaadasa"nkappo, vihi.msaasa"nkappo aya.m, bhikkhave, micchaasa"nkappo. 11. "And what, bhikkhus, is wrong intention? The intention of sensual desire, the intention of ill will, and the intention of cruelty: this is wrong intention. ---------- "Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammaasa"nkappo? Sammaasa"nkappa.mpaha.m, bhikkhave, dvaaya.m vadaami atthi, bhikkhave, sammaasa"nkappo saasavo pu~n~nabhaagiyo upadhivepakko; atthi, bhikkhave, sammaasa"nkappo ariyo anaasavo lokuttaro magga"ngo. 12. "And what, bhikkhus, is right intention? Right intention, I say, is twofold: there is right intention that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment; and there is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path. ---------- Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammaasa"nkappo saasavo pu~n~nabhaagiyo upadhivepakko? Nekkhammasa"nkappo, abyaapaadasa"nkappo, avihi.msaasa"nkappo 'aya.m, bhikkhave, sammaasa"nkappo saasavo pu~n~nabhaagiyo upadhivepakko'". 13. "And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? The intention of renunciation, the intention of non-ill will, and the intention of non-cruelty [Note 1106]: this is right intention that is affected by taints...ripening on the side of attachment. [Note 1106] This is the standard definition of right intention as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path; see MN 141 Saccavibhanga sutta, paragraph 25. ---------- "Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammaasa"nkappo ariyo anaasavo lokuttaro magga"ngo? Yo kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anaasavacittassa ariyamaggasama"ngino ariyamagga.m bhaavayato takko vitakko sa"nkappo appanaa byappanaa cetaso abhiniropanaa vaciisa"nkhaaro aya.m, bhikkhave, sammaasa"nkappo ariyo anaasavo lokuttaro magga"ngo. 14. "And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path [Note 1107]: this is right intention that is noble...a factor of the path. [Note 1107] In this definition, the factor of intention (sa"nkappa) is identified with applied thought (vitakka), which is further specified as the factor responsible for absorption by fixing and directing the mind upon its object. For applied thought as "verbal formation," see MN 44 Cuu.lavedalla sutta, paragraph15. ---------- So micchaasa"nkappassa pahaanaaya vaayamati, sammaasa"nkappassa upasampadaaya, svaassa hoti sammaavaayaamo. So sato micchaasa"nkappa.m pajahati, sato sammaasa"nkappa.m upasampajja viharati; saassa hoti sammaasati. Itiyime tayo dhammaa sammaasa"nkappa.m anuparidhaavanti anuparivattanti, seyyathida.m sammaadi.t.thi, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati. 15. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong intention and to enter upon right intention: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong intention, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right intention: this is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three states run and circle around right intention, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness. [Note 1108] [Note 1108] MA: This statement refers exclusively to the co-existent factors accompanying supramundane right intention. In the preliminary phase of the practice, the three mundane right intentions arise separately, but at the moment of the supramundane path, a single right intention arises cutting off the threefold wrong intention. Thus the supramundane right intention may also be described as the intention of renunciation, non-ill will, and non-cruelty. The same method applies to right speech, etc. -------------------- Han: I had thought that the intention of renunciation (nekkhammasa"nkappo), the intention of non-ill will (abyaapaadasa"nkappo), and the intention of non-cruelty (avihi.msaasa"nkappo) are wholesome intentions which are good enough as a path factor. Now, I realize that they are still liable to be affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment. They are wholesome, no doubt, and may lead to favourable rebirths in human and deva realms, but still not good enough for the final liberation. Then, what has one to do for supramundane right intention? thinking, takko thought, vitakko intention, sa"nkappo mental absorption, appanaa mental fixity, byappanaa directing of mind, cetaso abhiniropanaa verbal formation, vaciisa"nkhaaro (Note 1107) gives only this explanation: In this definition, the factor of intention (sa"nkappa) is identified with applied thought (vitakka), which is further specified as the factor responsible for absorption by fixing and directing the mind upon its object. [If members of DSG group can come up with further explanation on the above, I will be most grateful.] (Note 1108) says that in the preliminary phase of the practice, the three mundane right intentions arise separately, but at the moment of the supramundane path, a single right intention arises cutting off the threefold wrong intention. The same method applies to right speech, and right action. Han: This is also an important point for me. I did not know this fact before reading this sutta. with metta, Han #126941 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 5:08 pm Subject: Hi Group.... buddhatrue Dear Friends, I thought I would just give a short update to let you all know about me. I am doing fine and still struggling everyday to find the right balance of spirituality and insight- that is being fine because that is the nature of our chosen existence. :-))) Honestly, I do find myself preoccupied lately with material matters. I seem to care so much about the November elections and with the state of the world these days. On the one hand I know that it is all illusion and a hologram, but on the other hand I worry about all the people who will be destroyed who don't know. Really, I usually feel like I am in a galactic struggle between good and bad/ light and dark. I miss my simple days here at DSG where I was just debating the truth of the Buddha's teaching. It get tiring debating the truth of EVERYTHING. My well wishes and fondness for everyone here. I hope that we can all find the truth together.... Metta, James #126942 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. > > It seems that intimation is the subtle physical indication of the intention or volition "to communicate or do" that is carried by the rupas that are visible or tactile, etc.; and that the intimation is not itself visible as intimation, but must be discerned in the mind door. So if it is discerned by mind and is not visible, what kind of rupa is it? I would have thought it was a mental factor. > .... > S: Apart from 7 "gross" rupas experienced through the sense doors (i.e visible object, sound, odor, taste, solidity, temperature and motion), any other rupas can only be experienced through the mind door. That is interesting - doesn't quite make sense to me, as my concept of rupas has always been somewhat physicalized. But I guess that rupas can be concrete and yet somewhat removed from what we normally think of as physical. > Some of these are "sabhava" which have their own characteristics which can be discerned, while others are "asabhava" which means they don't arise directly from the primary rupas but are attributes or dependent on other rupas, such as space which separates kalapas of rupas and depends on those kalapas. So space for instance is relative to the properties of the arising kalapas, while others are more independently arisen. > The two intimation rupas are also asabhava rupas, dependent on the air element for bodily intimation and the earth element for speech intimation. They are not readily apparent at all. Very subtle rupas. Hard to understand exactly how that works, but I think I get it abstractly to an extent. > > > ...along with other rupas conditioned by those cittas make up what we call 'speech'. > > > > So speech = the intimation rupa + the other rupas conditioned by the cittas involved. > ... > S: Yes, exactly. There is a decad, a kalapa of ten rupas which make up the speech intimation group or rupas. This includes the 8 inseparable rupas which always arise with every kalapa, (i.e. the four primary rupas - solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, plus colour, taste, odour and nutriment. In addition in this decad, there must be speech intimation and sound. This group of rupas is always produced by citta. Okay, good to know. > ... > > > So it is akusala kamma carried out by way of the speech door. > > > > So here, if akusala kamma is "carried out" through the speech door, what is the significance for the kamma of being "carried out." It seems again that the being physically "carried out" via the rupas involved is a question of physical expression rather than the cetana that conditioned those rupas; therefore the physical expression itself should not change the kamma. However it is not complete without such physical expression. Still confused... > .... > S: The kamma is the cetana accompanying the citta. When there is harsh speech, for example, the citta conditions the speech intimation group or rupas (numerous times, of course) and the meaning is conveyed. Okay, so the intensity, one could say, of the cetana, will be expressed through the intensity of the "harsh speech," for instance. The harsh speech represents the intention of the citta, but does not itself cause additional kamma. Yet it is hard to accept that the killing of another being, for instance, has only the significance in terms of kamma of expressing the kamma already created by the cetana, and that there is no additional "penalty" for the carrying out of the act of violence. Is that in fact true, that the kamma is all carried by the cetana, and that the actual killing does not add to the degree of the kamma? > > > By the speech door, it is this speech intimation, the physical indicator of the intended meaning, that is meant. > > > > Ah, this sounds like a very special rupa. It is not directly discernible, but carries or indicates the meaning of the cetana that is carried by the speech rupas, and yet is itself discernible in the mind door of the recipient of the speech. > .... > S: As far as the listener is concerned, only sounds are heard. These sounds leave nimitta or signs which are interpreted as speech. If we try to 'work it out' too much, we forget about what appears now, what can be known now when sound is heard. > > Please feel free to raise your other qus in the post again, but I think this is enough for now. Can the speech intimation rupa be discerned/experienced? And if so, by whom [speaker or recipient] and how? Thanks, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126943 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 5:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > >And if that is so, what happens to the idea that he sees that there really are no beings? Does he see that there are no beings and yet intend an action towards the being at the same time? What if he intends kindness or metta towards a being, does he think at the same time 'there is no being' and yet continue to intend it? > ... > S: Like now. If there is metta to friends here or if a gift is given, there are just kusala cittas with the other's welfare at heart. At such times, no wrong views at all. But "other's welfare" still intends the metta or gift towards a being. Hard to understand how there is no wrong view and yet the intention towards a being persists. > Later there may be wrong ideas about beings existing or there may be right understanding of realities. Right understanding doesn't mean no more thoughts about your wife, your daughter or friends! I am glad to hear it, as I would find it hard to give them up. On the other hand, if one were to understand clearly that there were no beings, the view towards family and friends would be different than it is now. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #126944 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > And the student often expects the teacher to be perfect, which is also > > wrong. > > > > > Why would a "student", when the game is the ending of suffering, pay any > attention to a "teacher" who is also suffering? Hi there, Herman! Nice to see that you are still around, though not present for long periods of time. I don't subscribe to the kind of absolutism that would stipulate that one can only learn from someone who has reached a perfected state. In almost every area of life, we learn from others who know a bit more in some area, and we teach others who know a bit less in some area, all sort of beehive style. If we had only the Buddha to look to and no good friends to share the path to understanding with, it would be much more difficult, and would lack the immediacy of communication and clarification in the moment. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126945 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 5:40 pm Subject: kukkucca(regret) szmicio Dear friends, An extract from Nina's Cetasikas, Chapter on Regret: Best wishes Lukas #126946 From: Herman Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 egberdina Hi Phil, On 3 October 2012 21:40, philofillet wrote: > ** > > > Hi Herman > > > > > > Why do you say that everything that happens is conditioned precisely? > > > > It's my belief system when I consider Dhamma. That might change, who > knows? Maybe I will become a truth seeker like you (I googled that drug, > sounds intriguing) and others. But for now I loathe having my own original > ideas about Dhamma. > > I know you to be an extremely honest person. You have no reservations about sharing your innards. To me, this is an extremely admirable quality. I think our conversations here, not jist between you and me, but between all, will become more effective if we osmose some of that Phil quality. Amudonama (sic) ;-) Herman > Phil > > > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126947 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:37 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, Through the development of samatha one can become temporarily free from lobha, dosa and moha, but these defilements are not eradicated. Vipassanå is the only way to eradicate defilements. Samatha was taught also by other teachers before the Buddha’s time, but vipassanå is exclusively the Buddha’s teaching. The Buddha reminded the monks of the goal of the teachings, the eradication of defilements, and he exhorted them not to be satisfied with lesser attainments, but to continue developing the right conditions for the attainment of arahatship. We read in the “Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Pith” (Middle Length Sayings I, no 29) that the Buddha, while he was staying near Råjagaha, on Mount Vulture’s Peak, spoke about a monk who received gains, honurs and fame. We read: “... Because of the gains, honours, fame, he becomes satisfied, his purpose is fulfilled. Because of the gains, honours, fame, he exalts himself, disparages others, thinking: ‘It is I who am a recipient, being famous, but those other monks are little known, of little esteem.’ He, because of the gains, honours, fame, is exultant, indolent and falls into sloth; being indolent, he dwells ill....” We then read about a monk who does not think that his purpose is fulfilled when he receives gains, honours and fame, but who develops moral habit, síla, and attains success in this. He then thinks that his purpose is fulfilled. We read the same about a monk who gains success in concentration and then thinks that his purpose is fulfilled, and about a monk who gains “knowledge and vision” and then thinks that his purpose is fulfilled. So long as he has not attained arahatship he has not reached the goal. We read at the end of the sutta that the Buddha said: “... So it is, monks, that this Brahma-faring is not for advantage in gains, honours, fame; it is not for advantage in moral habit, it is not for advantage in concentration, it is not for advantage in knowledge and vision. That, monks, which is unshakable freedom of mind, this is the goal, monks, of this brahma-faring, this is the pith, this is the culmination.” ********* Nina. #126948 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post nilovg Dear Han, Op 5-okt-2012, om 23:31 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I was asking Nina whether there is any reason why we have two sets > of sa.myojanas? ---------- N: There are different classifications to show different aspects. Classifications are not rigid, they help us to understand realities as they appear in daily life. As to the sa.myojanas, in the book of Analysis (Vibhanga) there is a discinction between the lower fetters and the higher fetters. The anaagami is not tied by the lower fetters anymore and this shows how hard it is to eradicate them. For example, kaama-raaga, sensuous clinging, this is eradicated only by the anaagaami. It usually arises immediately after seeing, in the same process, but we are ignorant of it and we take it for my seeing. The classification of the lower fetters and the higher fetters helps us to come to know defilements more, in our life now, and it shows how hard to eradicate they are. It is an exhortation not to neglect awareness and right understanding of what presents itself at this very moment. We may read a lot about classifications of realities, but, as Kh Sujin often repeats, let us not forget that all of them deal with our daily life now. If we forget this, our study is in vain. It is natural that we are most of the time forgetful of realities, it is conditioned. But then, we are grateful for reminders we find in the Tipitaka and commentaries. ****** Nina. #126949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 8:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 16-sep-2012, om 13:17 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Does "right understanding of the citta (that sees)" mean > intellectual understanding of seeing learned from the texts and by > listening to the good Dhamma friend. Or does it refer to previous > moments of satipatthana? Or both? ------- N: What do we learn from the texts? Nothing else but "studying" with awareness seeing now, not some idea or concept of seeing we read about. All the texts, if we read them well, refer to satipa.t.thaana now. That is the only way to come to understand that dhammas are anattaa. We may read texts with wrong understanding and then listening to the good dhamma friend will help. ------- Nina. #126950 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Nina, Although I do not get the exact information that I am looking for, I appreciate your kind reply. It conatins a lot of very useful information. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 10/7/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Han, N: There are different classifications to show different aspects. Classifications are not rigid, they help us to understand realities as they appear in daily life. #126951 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post jagkrit2012 Dear Han >Han: I was asking Nina whether there is any reason why we have two sets of sa.myojanas? JJ: I'm also interested in your question. I search the answer in Thai DSG and found one close answer from Archan Kompan who is one of the speaker in the foundation with T.A. Sujin, posting the answer in Thai. I may translate as follows: "First of all, we have to understand what is sa.myojanas. Sa.myojanas means kilesa which ties up all being within samsaara, not letting anyone out. This confirms that sa.myojanas is namma dhamma of akusala. When this sa.myojanas is real, Buddha kindly addressed sa.myojanas in various meaning for more understanding of their characteristic in reality. Buddha mentioned sa.myojanas in both sutta and apidhamma which is slightly different such as in sutta using sakdaaya-dhiti while in apidhamma using only dhiti. However, when considering their characteristic, they are the same which refer to dhiti cetasika (micha dhiti). Lobha in sutta using ruupa-ragga and aruupa-ragga, in apidhamma using bhava-raaga where literally they are the same meaning as craving in plane or craving in Jhanna. However, about the different sets such as in sutta using uddhacca but in apidhamma using issaa and macchariya, they are all kilesa which fatters all being within samsaara where Buddha gave this meaning in different place and to different listeners. The benefit of this veriousness should be good to anyone who studies meanings of sa.myojanas with more understanding their reality and be able to see how danger of these kilesas which arise many time in daily life. We, therefore, should not be careless to learn more and more until kelisa is eradicated." Hopefully, the answer led to more understanding in sa.myojanas. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126952 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Group.... upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 10/7/2012 2:08:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: My well wishes and fondness for everyone here. I hope that we can all find the truth together.... =============================== It's wonderful to hear from you! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126953 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Jagkrit, Thank you very much for your post. I accept your following comment. ---------- However, about the different sets such as in sutta using uddhacca but in abhidhamma using issaa and macchariya, they are all kilesa which fetters all being within samsaara where Buddha gave this meaning in different place and to different listeners. The benefit of this variousness should be good to anyone who studies meanings of sa.myojanas with more understanding their reality and be able to see how danger of these kilesas which arise many time in daily life. We, therefore, should not be careless to learn more and more until kelisa is eradicated." ---------- with metta and respect, Han #126954 From: "azita" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 11:16 pm Subject: Re: kukkucca(regret) gazita2002 Hallo Lukas, thank you for this excerpt from Cetasikas. Most helpful. Even tho we may have regret about akusala which was done and the kusala which was not done, it does seem rather pointless to worry dont you think? when we consider that there is no 'us' to do or not do, worrying is jst accumulating more akusala. The best thing is to develop understanding of what arises now, and see that whatever it is that arises is impermanent and doesnt belong to anyone. patience, courrage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > An extract from Nina's Cetasikas, Chapter on Regret: > > > The Atthasālinī (II, Book II, Part IX, Chapter III, 258) gives the following definition of kukkucca: > > ...It has repentance as characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and omission as function, regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and omission as proximate cause, and it should be regarded as a state of bondage. > The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 174) gives a similar definition. > > The characteristic of kukkucca is repentance. Repentance is generally considered a virtue, but the reality of kukkucca is not wholesome, it arises with dosa-mūla-citta. Kukkucca which “regrets” the commission of evil and the omission of kusala is different from wholesome thinking about the disadvantages of akusala and the value of kusala. The conventional term “worry” which is also used as translation of kukkucca may not be clear either. When we say that we worry, it may not be the reality of kukkucca but it may be thinking with aversion about an unpleasant object without there being kukkucca. For example, we may worry about the way how to solve a problem in the future; this kind of worry is not the reality of kukkucca. > > If we take note of the proximate cause of kukkucca we will better understand what kukkucca is. The proximate cause of kukkucca is akusala kamma through body, speech and mind which has been committed and also kusala kamma through body, speech and mind which has been omitted. We read in the Dhammasangaṇi (par1304 and 1305): > > Which are the states that conduce to remorse?: > > Misconduct in act, word and thought. Besides, all bad states conduce to remorse. > > Which are the states that do not conduce to remorse? > > Good conduct in act, word and thought. Besides, no good states (absence of good states) conduce to remorse.> > > Best wishes > Lukas > #126955 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Op 7-okt-2012, om 12:21 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > The benefit of this veriousness should be good to anyone who > studies meanings of sa.myojanas with more understanding their > reality and be able to see how danger of these kilesas which arise > many time in daily life. We, therefore, should not be careless to > learn more and more until kelisa is eradicated." > > Hopefully, the answer led to more understanding in sa.myojanas. ----- N: Thank you for quoting Khun Kampan, he is always very good and very skilful at Pali. And he also stresses the practical side. It is not theory. Nina. #126956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Op 4-okt-2012, om 4:19 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > I looked in Apidhamma Tipitika, dhammasungkini said about > "Sovachassata" character of the one who is easy to speak to as you > mentioned above. > > I hope that you can elaborate more of this among the one who is > easy to speak to and the one who is difficult to speak to. ----- N: We find these expressions in different parts of the tipitaka. In Thai: waa ngaaj. See Ang II, II, 148: This is not possible when the citta is harsh because of conceit. He has to be humble, gentle. See also Sangiitisutta, the Tens: DN 33.3.3(1) 'Ten things that give protection (naatha-kara.na-dhammaa): *1124 Here a monk (a) is moral, he lives restrained according to the restrain of the discipline, persisting in right behaviour, seeing danger in the slightest fault, he keeps to the rules of training; [iii 267] (b) he has learnt much, and bears in mind and retains what he has learnt. In these teachings, beautiful in the beginning, the middle and the ending, which in spirit and in letter proclaim the absolutely perfected and purified holy life, he is deeply learned, he remembers them, recites them, reflects on them and penetrates them with vision; (c) he is a friend, associate and intimate of good people; (d) he is affable, endowed with gentleness and patience, quick to grasp instruction; (e) whatever various jobs there are to be done for his fellow-monks, he is skillful, not lax, using foresight in carrying them out, and is good at doing and planning; (f) he loves the Dhamma and delights in hearing it, he is especially fond of the advanced doctrine and discipline (abhidhamme abhivanaye); *1125 [iii 268] (g) he is content with any kind of requisites: robes, alms-food, lodging, medicines in case of illness; (h) he ever strives to arouse energy, to get rid of unwholesome states, to establish wholesome states, untiringly and energetically striving to keep such good states and never shaking off the burden; (i) he is mindful, with a great capacity for clearly recalling things done and said long ago; *1126 (j) he is wise, with wise perception of arising and passing away, that Ariyan perception that leads to the complete destruction of suffering. --------- N: (a) is moral, he lives restrained ..(b) he has learnt much, and bears in mind and retains what he has learnt....(c) he is a friend, associate and intimate of good people; (d) he is affable, endowed with gentleness and patience, quick to grasp instruction; (e) whatever various jobs there are to be done for his fellow-monks,he is skillful..(f) he loves the Dhamma and delights in hearing it, he is especially fond of the advanced doctrine and discipline (abhidhamme abhivanaye); (g) he is content with any kind of requisites (h) he ever strives to arouse energy, to get rid of unwholesome states, to establish wholesome states,(i) he is mindful, with a great capacity for clearly recalling things done and said long ago; (j) he is wise, with wise perception of arising and passing away, that Ariyan perception that leads to the complete destruction of suffering. --------- N: The co. on d : as regards the good friend (kalya.namitta), he is endowed with good qualities, to begin with siila, he is of good speech (suvaco). He is patient when spoken to with in a strong, harsh and rough way, he is not angry. ------- Nina. #126957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 5:54 am Subject: Bgk 2008, Discussions in Keang Kracan, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Bgk 2008, K.K. April 8.(no 1) Acharn: As soon as something is experienced, thinking takes it for “some thing” all the time. Even right now there is tangible object appearing and when there is pain most people think: “I have pain”. Actually not just pain but any moment is taken for “I” all the time, unknowingly. When pain is there it is different from indifferent feeling and one thinks, “O, it is so painful and I have such pain”. But actually even what appears at this moment is conditioned, just like pain and it is experienced unknowingly, all the time. Realities pass on and on without any recognition of the true nature of it as just a reality. By understanding reality as it is, there can be moments of awareness of some realities, one at a time so that we know that it is that which we are talking about: a reality with its own characteristic. Nobody can change that characteristic. For example, right now, it seems very common, very simple that there is seeing. But actually, it is not just “I see” as we think, but it is a conditioned reality. It arises and falls away without there being any understanding of it. At the moment of seeing, who understands it as it is, as just a moment of experiencing an object? And that object is seen, nobody is seen at all. We talk about realities that are so subtle and deep, but which seem very simple. It is not difficult to know that seeing arises and that seeing sees, but actually, how comes there to be seeing? There is no self, nobody. When one is fast asleep, there is no one at all, no friend, no possession, no name, no world. But how does sound appear? It indicates the anattaness of realities that when it is the right time for hearing to hear whatever sound is there, it has to arise. ***** Nina. #126958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 5:55 am Subject: Bgk 2008, Discussions in Keang Kracan, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Bgk 2008, K.K. April 8.(no 2). There is always thinking about realities, not the understanding of realities. There is thinking about different subjects like architecture or history, but not the understanding of realities. One has to be born and then die, for sure. Actually there is no one who is born and no one who dies. There is a conditioned reality at the moment of birth which has to be folowed by lots of experiences in one’s life. That is all. No one can stop the arising and falling away of realities, of experiences after birth. It has to end the last moment of life. It has to come without any understanding of realities at all if there is no development of the fact that it has actually to be like this. What one takes for I or a thing are just conditioned realities. ********* Nina. #126959 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Jagkrit and Nina. My Burmese friend told me that these fetters are grouped under three groups: lobha, dosa, moha; and so it does not matter much the list of the fetters. As long as they are fetters, they have to be abandoned. I agree and I try to put them in three groups as follows. ---------- Under Lobha (including di.t.thi and maana): Sutta list: (4) kaamacchanda-sa.myojana, (6) ruuparaaga-sa.myojana, (7) aruuparaaga-sa.myojana, (1) sakkaayadi.t.thi-sa.myojana, (3) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana, (8) maana-sa.myojana. Abhidhamma list: (1) kaamaraaga-sa.myojana, (7) bhavaraaga-sa.myojana, (4) di.t.thi-sa.myojana, (6) siilabbataparaamaasa-sa.myojana, (3) maana-sa.myojana. ---------- Under Dosa: Sutta list: (5) byaapaada-sa.myojana, Abhidhamma list: (2) pa.tigha-sa.myojana, (8) issaa-sa.myojana, (9) macchariya-sa.myojana, ----------- Under Moha: Sutta list: (2) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana, (9) uddhacca-sa.myojana, (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana. Abhidhamma list: (5) vicikicchaa-sa.myojana, (10) avijjaa-sa.myojana. ------------ Han: Looking at the above list I have only one question: Under Moha, why not there is Ahirika-sa.myojana, or Anottappa-sa.myojana? There is Uddhacca-sa.myojana in the list. Ahirika and Anottappa are more dangerous than Uddhacca. So I asked my Burmese friend, but I may not get a reply to my question. No, I am not making a fuss on the different *classifications* as Nina had reminded me. I am making a fuss on the Ahirika and Anottappa cetasikas themselves in comparison with Uddhacca. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 10/7/12, jagkrit2012 wrote: From: jagkrit2012 Subject: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 7, 2012, 5:21 PM  Dear Han >Han: I was asking Nina whether there is any reason why we have two sets of sa.myojanas? JJ: I'm also interested in your question. I search the answer in Thai DSG and found one close answer from Archan Kompan who is one of the speaker in the foundation with T.A. Sujin, posting the answer in Thai. I may translate as follows: "First of all, we have to understand what is sa.myojanas. Sa.myojanas means kilesa which ties up all being within samsaara, not letting anyone out. This confirms that sa.myojanas is namma dhamma of akusala. When this sa.myojanas is real, Buddha kindly addressed sa.myojanas in various meaning for more understanding of their characteristic in reality. Buddha mentioned sa.myojanas in both sutta and apidhamma which is slightly different such as in sutta using sakdaaya-dhiti while in apidhamma using only dhiti. However, when considering their characteristic, they are the same which refer to dhiti cetasika (micha dhiti). Lobha in sutta using ruupa-ragga and aruupa-ragga, in apidhamma using bhava-raaga where literally they are the same meaning as craving in plane or craving in Jhanna. However, about the different sets such as in sutta using uddhacca but in apidhamma using issaa and macchariya, they are all kilesa which fatters all being within samsaara where Buddha gave this meaning in different place and to different listeners. The benefit of this veriousness should be good to anyone who studies meanings of sa.myojanas with more understanding their reality and be able to see how danger of these kilesas which arise many time in daily life. We, therefore, should not be careless to learn more and more until kelisa is eradicated." Hopefully, the answer led to more understanding in sa.myojanas. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126960 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 2:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Sarah, Nina and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > >>N: ...It all seemed a dream, very unreal. But we are dreaming all > > > day, anyway. > <..> > >R: I just wanted to say that I appreciated your message, the understandings you are gaining and also the sadness and the stories. > .... > > S: Scott wrote a very moving message before about the sadness he felt and attachment to his wife who had passed away: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/61932 ............... > >...I thought, who'd like to have sadness for a long time? But as you suggest > as well, there can be clinging even to the sadness, the unhappy feelings > and the loss of the "beautiful pictures of beautiful people relating with > one another" (as Ken H put it so eloquently). ... Thanks, Sarah, for this very meaningful collection of thoughts, impressions and understandings from some of the thoughtful members of this group, and from K. Sujin as well. It is a very deep and profound post, worth going through more than once. I was moved to hear Scott's very personal thoughts, and the others. It stirs up a lot, as we are very attached to our loved ones, and yet are also very attached to the hope of detachment and of liberation from such painful involvements. The fact that we are experiencing this together in some way seems to be an auspicious moment to stop and contemplate the many lifetimes that this kind of attachment and suffering has plagued us. And yet we can honor those who are gone and send them onward with love. It is a very deep study to contemplate. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126961 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 2:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, and Sarah, > You really encourage me, Rob. I am very glad. I am happy to give whatever small support I can at such a difficult time. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - > Sarah, very good quotes, also what Scott realized: sadness > condiitoned by clinging, I put your quotes of Kh Sujin in my file > Consolations. > Nina. > Op 30-sep-2012, om 7:59 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I am glad you have your Dhamma friends to support your > > understanding, and also to remind you what an enormous support you > > are for everyone here. > > > > > #126962 From: Herman Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. egberdina Hi RobE, On 7 October 2012 17:35, epsteinrob wrote: > ** > > > Hi Herman. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > And the student often expects the teacher to be perfect, which is also > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > Why would a "student", when the game is the ending of suffering, pay any > > attention to a "teacher" who is also suffering? > > Hi there, Herman! Nice to see that you are still around, though not > present for long periods of time. I don't subscribe to the kind of > absolutism that would stipulate that one can only learn from someone who > has reached a perfected state. In almost every area of life, we learn from > others who know a bit more in some area, and we teach others who know a bit > less in some area, all sort of beehive style. If we had only the Buddha to > look to and no good friends to share the path to understanding with, it > would be much more difficult, and would lack the immediacy of communication > and clarification in the moment. > > I understand what you are saying, and that certainly applies to all sorts of aspects of daily life. And, sure, I would concede that we can all make life a little bit more bearable for each other when times are tough. However, I will stick to my guns:-), because we are talking about the perfection of ethics, aren't we? And in that case the blind leading the blind does not get one anywhere, we only risk exacerbating ignorance, and replacing one object of clinging or aversion with another. No-one today, in their right mind (sic), would assume the role of a teacher of ethics, IMO. > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126963 From: Herman Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 3:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Group.... egberdina Hi James, On 7 October 2012 17:08, Buddhatrue wrote: > ** > > > Dear Friends, > > I thought I would just give a short update to let you all know about me. I > am doing fine and still struggling everyday to find the right balance of > spirituality and insight- that is being fine because that is the nature of > our chosen existence. :-))) > > Honestly, I do find myself preoccupied lately with material matters. I > seem to care so much about the November elections and with the state of the > world these days. On the one hand I know that it is all illusion and a > hologram, but on the other hand I worry about all the people who will be > destroyed who don't know. > > Really, I usually feel like I am in a galactic struggle between good and > bad/ light and dark. I miss my simple days here at DSG where I was just > debating the truth of the Buddha's teaching. It get tiring debating the > truth of EVERYTHING. > > My well wishes and fondness for everyone here. I hope that we can all find > the truth together.... > > Metta, > James > > Good to hear from you again. It's been a while. I'm sure good discussions will follow :-) > > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126964 From: Herman Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.2 (22) (preventing anger) egberdina Hi Phil, On 6 October 2012 20:32, philofillet wrote: > ** > > > > Dear Group > > Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > "People ask what they should do to prevent anger. All dhammas are non-self > (anatta) and thus also dana is anattaa. Dosa arises because of its > appropriate conditions. That are people who can eradicate dosa for good, so > that it does not arise again. Those people have developed panna and > realized the Four Noble Truths to the degree of the third stage of > enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner (anaagamii.)" (57) > > (end of passage) > > Ph: The notion of preventing anger is just about as absurd as the notion > of preventing attachment. Dosa has arisen for countless lifetimes, arises > now, and will arise for many lifetimes to come. But this can be understood. > > If there is understanding of some of the conditions that can bring anger about, and there is an understanding of the drawbacks of anger, then there will be an avoidance of some of those conditions that bring anger about. That is called learning :-) > Phil > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126965 From: "philip" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.2 (22) (preventing anger) philofillet Hi Herman > If there is understanding of some of the conditions that can bring anger > about, and there is an understanding of the drawbacks of anger, then there > will be an avoidance of some of those conditions that bring anger about. > That is called learning :-) > Don't forget that when we say "anger" in Dhamma we are talking about dosa, much more pervasive than what people take "anger" to mean in conventional thinking. I was talking about any kind of aversive response to sense door objects, all those momentary impulses of judging with fleeting dislike etc. As for conventional "anger" that expresses itself in harsh speech etc, my experience is that there is a lot less of it, but not because of any explicit strategies or learning to avoid various situations, people, behaviour etc. Vows can be made in that direction, but the conditioned impulses (cetana, I guess, I don't know) that actually give rise to avoiding those situations/people/behaviour etc are completely beyond our control, that's what my experience tells me, maybe yours is different. I see you have addressed another post to me, but I won't be reading it. As I see you've written in the opening to that other post you appreciate my honesty (thanks!) and I've honestly told Robert E, Howard and others who are not devoted to listening to A.Sujin that I don't want to get involved in discussion with them. For the time being at least, I'm not here to debate/discuss, I just want to incorporate Dhamma as taught by A.Sujin. I have another religion that I would like to discuss, but this is not the place. For me, the only interesting thing about Dhamma is developing detachment and I feel A.Sujin is the only teacher I have heard who appreciates that that must be from the beginning! So forgive me for saying over and out to you, Herman. (As I have basically done with Rob E, Howard and others.) Please do comment on anything that I write, but forgive me in advance for not reading your posts and commenting on them etc. I am here, basically, to be indoctrinated as thoroughly in the Dhamma as explained by A.Sujin, Nina, Sarah and others. I am the only one who would put it in those terms, probably! Certainly the only one who intentionally avoids discussing with those who aren't on that same page. (Maybe if I had a lot of time I would be more generous about discussing!) Thanks Herman. Phil #126966 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 4:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > I understand what you are saying, and that certainly applies to all sorts > of aspects of daily life. > > And, sure, I would concede that we can all make life a little bit more > bearable for each other when times are tough. > > However, I will stick to my guns:-), because we are talking about the > perfection of ethics, aren't we? And in that case the blind leading the > blind does not get one anywhere, we only risk exacerbating ignorance, and > replacing one object of clinging or aversion with another. > > No-one today, in their right mind (sic), would assume the role of a teacher > of ethics, IMO. I don't think that an extreme view is too helpful in any aspect of the path - if you accept the idea of a path that is gradually leading to greater understanding. We don't have to assume the role of teacher. The Buddha's teaching is designed for both personal experience and support from a community of others who are committed to the same goal. Such members of a sangha, however organized or loose it may be, stand side by side, not on top of each other, and share knowledge as they contemplate it and learn it. On the other hand, if someone knows a little more about something, they can help. There are no perfect parents for instance, but we manage to at least teach our children how to eat and walk safely down the street, as well as some more important things. Then there are things they have to learn on their own, but it's all part of the natural system of mutually interdependent influences. To isolate oneself and deny all those relationships just cuts off the whole process, I think. Why not embrace it, with all its imperfections, and yet keep one's eyes open? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #126967 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 5:26 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 4, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4. Subtle Clinging When we were staying in Anurådhapura, some of our friends arranged an outing to Wilpattu National Park. We enjoyed ourselves looking at the wild peacocks and herons and we watched the deer who were peacefully grazing along the lakeside. At such moments it is obvious that attachment arises after seeing. Lobha can arise with pleasant feeling as well as with indifferent feeling and when it arises with pleasant feeling we can recognize it more easily. In Wilpattu there were many moments of lobha with pleasant feeling. Is there clinging at this moment, perhaps with indifferent feeling? Is there seeing now? Seeing itself is neither kusala nor akusala, it is vipåkacitta, the result of kamma. Shortly after seeing has fallen away, kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. After seeing, hearing and the experiences through the other senses there is usually clinging, because from birth to death we cling to all objects that can be experienced through the senses. We learn through the Abhidhamma that seeing arises in a process or series of cittas which all experience the same object, that is, visible object. A process of cittas experiencing an object through a sense-door is followed by a process of cittas experiencing that object through the mind-door. Visible object is experienced through the eye-door and after the eye-door process has been completed that object is experienced through the mind-door. After that there can be other mind-door processes of cittas which think of a concept of shape and form, of a whole, of a thing or a person. Seeing experiences what is visible, and it experiences it through the eyesense. Seeing does not pay attention to shape and form. The cittas which pay attention to shape and form arise later on. When we know that something is a house or when we recognize a person there is thinking of concepts conditioned by remembrance of former experiences, and this is different from seeing. Seeing does not pay attention to beauty or ugliness, at the moment of seeing there is no like or dislike. Shortly after seeing has fallen away, kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that same eye-door process. Thus, even before we know what it is that was seen, kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise on account of the object; these types arise because of their own conditions. There is not one moment of them but seven moments and they are called “javana-cittas”, which can be translated as the cittas that “run through” the object. When a sense-door process has been completed it is followed by a mind-door process with seven javana-cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. If there are other mind-door processes of cittas which think of concepts, there are also in these processes kusala cittas or akusala cittas. The cittas which think of concepts are akusala cittas if their objective is not dåna, síla or bhåvanå, mental development. We cannot think of concepts with cittas which are neither kusala nor akusala. ***** Nina. #126968 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Nina > > N: (a) is moral, he lives restrained ..(b) he has learnt much, and > bears in mind and retains what he has learnt....(c) he is a friend, > associate and intimate of good people; (d) he is affable, endowed > with gentleness and patience, quick to grasp instruction; (e) > whatever various jobs there are to be done for his fellow-monks,he is > skillful..(f) he loves the Dhamma and delights in hearing it, he is > especially fond of the advanced doctrine and discipline (abhidhamme > abhivanaye); (g) he is content with any kind of requisites (h) he > ever strives to arouse energy, to get rid of unwholesome states, to > establish wholesome states,(i) he is mindful, with a great capacity > for clearly recalling things done and said long ago; (j) he is wise, > with wise perception of arising and passing away, that Ariyan > perception that leads to the complete destruction of suffering. JJ: thank you very much for your information. This is useful to be good example in daily life. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126969 From: "philip" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? philofillet Hi Nina > > > Ph: Does "right understanding of the citta (that sees)" mean > > intellectual understanding of seeing learned from the texts and by > > listening to the good Dhamma friend. Or does it refer to previous > > moments of satipatthana? Or both? > ------- > N: What do we learn from the texts? Nothing else but "studying" with > awareness seeing now, not some idea or concept of seeing we read > about. Ph: I like something I heard A.Sujin say in Poland, she asked a Polish woman (and I paraphrase) when we say that seeing falls away, seeing does not continue, there are moments of seeing mixed with moments of hearing although seeing seems to continue, when we say the above - is there satipatthana? No, it's just thinking correct intellectual understanding. I would even say it is just conceptual, since they are not realities arising now, they are concepts about realities. I think being able to think in terms of concepts about realities is a necessary starting point. So "right understanding of the citta that sees" could refer to the above, at some level (pariyatti?) and not be sas you said "studying with awareness seeing now." There may be a few fleeting momemnts of "studying with awareness seeing now" but a lot of thinking conceptually about it. But thinking with correct understanding how, for example, seeing does not continue at the same time as hearing, which seems to be the case, but is a fleeting reality, a blip of seeing, bhavanga cittas, a blip of seeing, thinking about the visible object to "see" a chair etc...thinking and understanding (in theory because I don't experience in those terms) that that is how it works. >All the texts, if we read them well, refer to satipa.t.thaana > now. That is the only way to come to understand that dhammas are > anattaa. > We may read texts with wrong understanding and then listening to the > good dhamma friend will help. Ph: Well I join Lodewijk in saying (at least as I heard in a very good talk) that I have heard and heard about satipatthana and sati but I still don't know what it is. I think satipatthana is very advanced, I heard A.S say that too. But I will keep listening and not press too hard to try to "get" it. In the meantime I find conventional "awareness" or what pop Buddhists call "mindfulness in daily life" of what is going on in my mind helpful even though it is indeed thinking with attachement to good mind states and wanting to control. Writing out the entire part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas about Citta might be condition to absorb a correct understanding that is condition for deeper understanding of satipatthana someday. Or not. But I will do it, without specific expectations. Phil #126970 From: Herman Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.2 (22) (preventing anger) egberdina Thanks, Phil On 8 October 2012 16:33, philip wrote: > ** > > > > > Hi Herman > > > > If there is understanding of some of the conditions that can bring anger > > about, and there is an understanding of the drawbacks of anger, then > there > > will be an avoidance of some of those conditions that bring anger about. > > That is called learning :-) > > > > Don't forget that when we say "anger" in Dhamma we are talking about dosa, > much more pervasive than what people take "anger" to mean in conventional > thinking. I was talking about any kind of aversive response to sense door > objects, all those momentary impulses of judging with fleeting dislike etc. > > As for conventional "anger" that expresses itself in harsh speech etc, my > experience is that there is a lot less of it, but not because of any > explicit strategies or learning to avoid various situations, people, > behaviour etc. Vows can be made in that direction, but the conditioned > impulses (cetana, I guess, I don't know) that actually give rise to > avoiding those situations/people/behaviour etc are completely beyond our > control, that's what my experience tells me, maybe yours is different. > > I see you have addressed another post to me, but I won't be reading it. As > I see you've written in the opening to that other post you appreciate my > honesty (thanks!) and I've honestly told Robert E, Howard and others who > are not devoted to listening to A.Sujin that I don't want to get involved > in discussion with them. For the time being at least, I'm not here to > debate/discuss, I just want to incorporate Dhamma as taught by A.Sujin. I > have another religion that I would like to discuss, but this is not the > place. For me, the only interesting thing about Dhamma is developing > detachment and I feel A.Sujin is the only teacher I have heard who > appreciates that that must be from the beginning! > > So forgive me for saying over and out to you, Herman. (As I have basically > done with Rob E, Howard and others.) Please do comment on anything that I > write, but forgive me in advance for not reading your posts and commenting > on them etc. I am here, basically, to be indoctrinated as thoroughly in the > Dhamma as explained by A.Sujin, Nina, Sarah and others. I am the only one > who would put it in those terms, probably! Certainly the only one who > intentionally avoids discussing with those who aren't on that same page. > (Maybe if I had a lot of time I would be more generous about discussing!) > > Thanks Herman. > I also know you well enough to know that these current intentions of yours will also change :-) I wish you well in your quest. > Cheers > Herman I do not know what I do not know #126971 From: Herman Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. egberdina Hi RobE, On 8 October 2012 16:36, Robert E wrote: > ** > > > > > Hi Herman. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > I understand what you are saying, and that certainly applies to all sorts > > of aspects of daily life. > > > > And, sure, I would concede that we can all make life a little bit more > > bearable for each other when times are tough. > > > > However, I will stick to my guns:-), because we are talking about the > > perfection of ethics, aren't we? And in that case the blind leading the > > blind does not get one anywhere, we only risk exacerbating ignorance, and > > replacing one object of clinging or aversion with another. > > > > No-one today, in their right mind (sic), would assume the role of a > teacher > > of ethics, IMO. > > I don't think that an extreme view is too helpful in any aspect of the > path - if you accept the idea of a path that is gradually leading to > greater understanding. We don't have to assume the role of teacher. The > Buddha's teaching is designed for both personal experience and support from > a community of others who are committed to the same goal. Such members of a > sangha, however organized or loose it may be, stand side by side, not on > top of each other, and share knowledge as they contemplate it and learn it. > On the other hand, if someone knows a little more about something, they can > help. There are no perfect parents for instance, but we manage to at least > teach our children how to eat and walk safely down the street, as well as > some more important things. Then there are things they have to learn on > their own, but it's all part of the natural system of mutually > interdependent influences. To isolate oneself and deny all those > relationships just cuts off the whole process, I think. Why not embrace it, > with all its imperfections, and yet keep one's eyes open? > > My understanding of Buddhism is that it sees the end of suffering as co-inciding with the abandoning of interest in any and all phenomena. If that is correct, how could it be extreme to realise that listening to folks knowingly or unknowingly intent on being folks cannot possibly deliver that Buddhist outcome? Just wondering :-) > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126972 From: "philip" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:51 pm Subject: Listening to the Perfections (3 - giving freedom from fear) philofillet Dear Group I listened a little more to the chapter on Dana. Three points I picked up: - we should know the difference between giving with panna and giving without panna. (I would say we *can* pr *may* know it, I never like "should" since for me it sounds like an encouragement to try.) As for me, I don't. I think I can understand giving that is kusala (i.e with detachment, alobha.) Some acts of giving or generosity just arise in such an unexpected way. I feel there is alobha at such moments, and therefore kusala. - one form of dana is giving freedom from fear, something like "abyaya" In abstaining re all five precepts, there is giving protection and freedom from fear to immeasurable beings. That is a great form of generosity, I think. So sila and dana always go together. - We can only give when there is something to be given. Hmm. I remember I read once about giving "presence" as a form of dana, really being with someone, listening with attention etc. But that was in a pop Buddhist book. And anyways, there is not always someone to be present with. Can there be dana when we are sitting in the middle of a concrete parking lot with not a soul in sight? Only if there are insects around to kill or not kill, I guess. Speaking of insects and the Perfections, I still find it very interesting that a certain friend who shall remain names said that he/she has never had the temtpation to kill an insect, since childhood. I think this shows that people are born with different accumulations of kusala, the perfections are developed to different degrees in different people. I have been killing quite a few mosquitoes the last few nights, and with a fair bit of hatred in my heart for the way they screw up my sleep. And I don't care. I think it would be nuts for a householder to let himself be bloodsucked by a filthy mosquito when he a chance to kill it. (It's possible to catch cockroaches in boxes and I do on occasion, but don't tell me about catching mosquitoes at 3 a.m.) You see, different people have different accumulations of all kinds of kusala, including right view of the danger of killing. I kill fearlessly. You see, that is ahiri and anottapa, isn't it? Shamelessness and lack of fear of results of bad deeds. Different dhammas at work in different "people", it's fascinating! At the same time, I observe people killing insects who aren't vicious bloodsuckers (for example, those little fruit flies that flit here and there) and I wonder at their lack of shame. Mana. I try to justify my killing. They just do it without thinking twice. Is it better to kill knowing it is a sin, or kill without such knowledge? Never mind. Obviously I don't kill as fearlessly as I thought or I wouldn't be rambling on about it. Phil #126973 From: "philip" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.2 (22) (preventing anger) philofillet Hi Herman Thanks, yes, always interesting to note how out of control the outcome of intentions are, yes, mine are particularly volatile! Wishing you all the best too as I proceed to ignore your posts in favour of those of The Select Ones! Just to add in self-defence that my praising "indoctrination" was going too far. The thing is that I have a hunch not shated by anyone else as far as I know that trying to persuade someone whose view on Dhamma is different to share one's own is an exercise in subtle self-pumping. Instead it is best to listen repeatedly to people whose understanding you "know" (how?) to be correct. That is SO contrary to the whole "see for yourself" ideal that us central to Buddhism. So maybe I don't loathe having original ideas after all...and as you say I will probably be blowing a different tune soon enough... Ok adios senor, for now at least. Phil #126974 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 2 nilovg Dear Jagkrit, it is useful for us all if you from time to time tell us about the Thai discussions in Bgk. Nina. Op 8-okt-2012, om 9:31 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > thank you very much for your information. This is useful to be good > example in daily life. #126975 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Rob E, Nina & all, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >....It stirs up a lot, as we are very attached to our loved ones, and yet are also very attached to the hope of detachment and of liberation from such painful involvements.... .... The following is an extract from another discussion on sadness in Poland. It occurred at the end of a lunch when we had a day's outing. I can't hear everything. Lukas and Khun Sujin were discussing sadness and unpleasant feeling, vedana. *** Ann: So sadness is unpleasant feeling. Some dosa too? Khun Sujin agrees and adds: But one has to consider if there is [any] benefit of sadness. Is there [any] benefit of sadness? No use, just gone. Lukas: But it happens, it's painful. KS: No use. It hurts. So your own kilesa hurts you, nobody else at all. L: But when we open a book, like the first book of Abhidhamma, Dhammasangani and it says like, the Buddha says 'kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakatha dhamma' and that's so powerful for me because it doesn't concern self in the teachings. Just kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakatha dhamma. KS: So what is sadness? L: Akusala dhamma. KS: Right, it can arise only when there are its proper conditions like other realities, but we [give] so [much] importance to it, so it's vedana khandha. L: Then we remember, by sanna. KS: Only in this life. *** Ann: How can we help someone who is depressed and sad? KS: Understanding only *** L: Ajahn when we feel sad, it seems we can change it, like going to the shop to buy a beer... KS: Not all the time. It will come again. Its your own akusala. Remember that. L: So it brings more sadness? KS: By ignorance. Things keep on changing, never be the same, so feeling in previous life, sadness in previous life is different, different objects. And sadness in next life will have different objects again. That's all. Only experiencing an object with a different feeling, not anyone at all. So when sadness arises, it's time to see it, to understand it as a reality. By then one can say 'it's gone' because it cannot stay, cannot last. We can say it does not last now, but only at the moment of understanding a reality can one say 'it's gone' when it's gone and at that moment there can be understanding of many realities like there can be the understanding of memory, see? Without memory there cannot be such sadness about such and such. So one begins to see sanna as sanna, vedana as vedana, otherwise vedana is 'I', sanna is 'I'. That's why before all the attachment or upadana of all these khandhas can be eradicated, it needs the panna to keep to repeat, keep on repeating the understanding of all these objects right now. You have new friend, panna, not your old, old friends, lobha and ignorance. It depends what kind of friends you prefer. *** Sarah: So what is the best thing when there is sadness? L: to accept sadness... KS: Understanding it as a reality. It's so clear, beyond imagination. If you think about sadness, it's not like when it arises and appears to you, so it depends whether it appears to right understanding or appears to ignorance and clinging. *** S:.... People are so used to thinking that the problem is 'out there'. They think the problem is the boss, or the girlfriend or the situation and not to understanding that the problem is the thinking with aversion, the kilesa, that arises at this moment. What is the cause of sadness? A: Ignorance. KS: And attachment. S: It helps a lot to understand the cause is attachment. L: Yeh, but Ajahn, ...I hear this..... KS: And what about dhamma at the moment of sadness? See? That's the meaning of forgetful. So one can see the development of right understanding. S: Any time at all. **** Metta Sarah ====== #126976 From: "philip" Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 8:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for the great transcript. Recently there have been so many excellent transcripts (two great ones from Nina yesterday) of A. Sujin talking. Of course I can bookmark these myself but rather than having a personal collection on my iphone or computer that might get lost, do you think it might be possible to have a file of them in the file section? I'm not a techie but is it somehow possible to have an open file that people can add to? Basically, any post that contains a transcript of A. Sujin talking is gold....i personally would be happy just reading her words...yes, a variant on UPs, but... Phil #126977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah, I find very helpful the insistence on repeating, repeating. We are so dumb, the truth can't be repeated enough. Nina. Op 8-okt-2012, om 10:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Without memory there cannot be such sadness about such and such. So > one begins to see sanna as sanna, vedana as vedana, otherwise > vedana is 'I', sanna is 'I'. That's why before all the attachment > or upadana of all these khandhas can be eradicated, it needs the > panna to keep to repeat, keep on repeating the understanding of all > these objects right now. #126978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Listening to the Perfections (3 - giving freedom from fear) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 8-okt-2012, om 9:51 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > We can only give when there is something to be given. Hmm. I > remember I read once about giving "presence" as a form of dana, > really being with someone, listening with attention etc. But that > was in a pop Buddhist book. And anyways, there is not always > someone to be present with. Can there be dana when we are sitting > in the middle of a concrete parking lot with not a soul in sight? > Only if there are insects around to kill or not kill, I guess. ------ N: Also when there are no things to give there can still be kusala citta with generosity. There is also anumodana daana, kusala citta thinking with appreciation of others' good deeds. There is extension of merit: dedicating good deeds to others, dead or alive, so that they also have kusala cittas, rejoicing in your kusala. I learnt this in Thailand. After a Dhamma discussion they recite a dedication, they did this for Lodewijk. ------ Ph: > > I try to justify my killing. They just do it without thinking > twice. Is it better to kill knowing it is a sin, or kill without > such knowledge? ------ Kh Sujin once said: not knowing, there is ignorance, it makes it worse. I can't say much about your killing insects, it depends on the citta. On hiri and ottappa or the lack of it. Actually, it is good to remember that it depends on conditions whether a sting, something painful, is felt. Kamma conditions painful feeling. We think of insects, but, what we take for an insect has fallen away before we can think of it. Why have aversion towards what does not last? ----- Nina. #126979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Rob E, I really appreciate your thoughts, Nina. Op 8-okt-2012, om 5:30 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I was moved to hear Scott's very personal thoughts, and the > others. It stirs up a lot, as we are very attached to our loved > ones, and yet are also very attached to the hope of detachment and > of liberation from such painful involvements. The fact that we are > experiencing this together in some way seems to be an auspicious > moment to stop and contemplate the many lifetimes that this kind of > attachment and suffering has plagued us. And yet we can honor those > who are gone and send them onward with love. It is a very deep > study to contemplate. #126980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post nilovg Dear Han, Op 8-okt-2012, om 3:31 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Looking at the above list I have only one question: > Under Moha, why not there is Ahirika-sa.myojana, or Anottappa- > sa.myojana? > There is Uddhacca-sa.myojana in the list. > Ahirika and Anottappa are more dangerous than Uddhacca. ------ N: They accompany each akusala citta, also uddhacca, anyway. They are never absent. As to classifications, all over the Tipika we find differences in classification of realities, not only with regard to sa.myojanas. There is also in the suttas the Abhidhamma classification, we do not have to separate these so strictly. The main thing: let us appreciate the reminders and get to know reality now. Nina. #126981 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 5-okt-2012, om 15:42 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > I will also join to your questions, and ask what are sa.myojanas, > cause I really dont know. Is it one of the kilesas or asavas? How > all this akusalas that was discern by Blessed One by different > names differs from each other? ------ N: Different akusala dhammas are classified in different groups of kilesas to show different aspects. To help us to come to know them in daily life. The same akusala dhammas are classified as asavas, cankers or intoxicants, exuding from the senses and the mind, trickling, even now, and they are also classified as floods, oghas, submerging us in the cycle of birth and death. They are also classified as yogham yokes, tying us to the cycle of birth and death. ----- Nina. #126982 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:52 am Subject: Bgk 2008, Discussions in Kaeng Kracan, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Bgk 2008, K.K. April 8.(no 3) Not words, but characteristics. Acharn: In the beginning some people are learning names, naama and ruupa, and then they start looking for them. They do not realize that they do not have to do anything, that reality appears now, that it is there. But by thinking about the word they look for it, whether this is naama, this is ruupa and how many kinds of ruupa are there. Actually, we do not have to think like that at all, because it is not just the name but it represents the reality or the true nature of dhammas which are different from one another. For example, we do not have to say that seeing is naama, visible object is ruupa. There is no need to say this because that is only remembrance of the terms one has heard many times and thought about. But what about this moment of seeing? It is so real, because whatever is seen, is seen now and that which is seen is not that which experiences or that which sees it. We do not have to say: "It is naama which sees and ruupa which is seen." This is not necessary. That is not the way to understand it. The way to understand it is knowing that when there is seeing right now that is seeing. What does it see, what is seen? The thing that is seen is not the seeing. So, there is the beginning of understanding the nature of a reality which can be seen as just that which can be seen, not: which can be heard. Can it be anyone or anything? Or is it just that which can be seen? That is why we have to listen a lot, consider a lot, in order to come closer and closer to the nature of that which can be seen as just a reality. ***** Nina. #126983 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Macchariya cetasika (Stinginess) - Refreshed old post hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comments. I really appreciate it. with metta and respect, Han --- On Mon, 10/8/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: They accompany each akusala citta, also uddhacca, anyway. They are never absent. As to classifications, all over the Tipika we find differences in classification of realities, not only with regard to sa.myojanas. There is also in the suttas the Abhidhamma classification, we do not have to separate these so strictly. The main thing: let us appreciate the reminders and get to know reality now. Nina. #126984 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 6:39 am Subject: MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta (4) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 117. Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta: The Great Forty Paa.li text from http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ The translation by Ven Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. (SPEECH) 138. "Tatra, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi pubba"ngamaa hoti. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi pubba"ngamaa hoti? Micchaavaaca.m 'micchaavaacaa'ti pajaanaati, sammaavaaca.m ‘sammaavaacaa`ti pajaanaati; saassa hoti sammaadi.t.thi. 16. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong speech as wrong speech and right speech as right speech: this is one's right view. ---------- Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, micchaavaacaa? Musaavaado, pisu.naa vaacaa, pharusaa vaacaa, samphappalaapo aya.m, bhikkhave, micchaavaacaa. 17. "And what, bhikkhus, is wrong speech? False speech, malicious speech, harsh speech, and gossip: this is wrong speech. ---------- Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaavaacaa? Sammaavaaca.mpaha.m, bhikkhave, dvaaya.m vadaami atthi, bhikkhave, sammaavaacaa saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa; atthi, bhikkhave , sammaavaacaa ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa. 18. "And what, bhikkhus, is right speech? Right speech, I say, is twofold: there is right speech that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment; and there is right speech that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path. ---------- Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaavaacaa saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa? Musaavaadaa verama.nii, pisu.naaya vaacaaya verama.nii, pharusaaya vaacaaya verama.nii, samphappalaapaa verama.nii aya.m, bhikkhave, sammaavaacaa saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa. 19. "And what, bhikkhus, is right speech that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? Abstinence from false speech, abstinence from malicious speech, abstinence from harsh speech, abstinence from gossip: this is right speech that is affected by taints...ripening on the side of attachment. ---------- Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaavaacaa ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa? Yaa kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anaasavacittassa ariyamaggasama"ngino ariyamagga.m bhaavayato catuuhi vaciiduccaritehi aarati virati pa.tivirati verama.nii aya.m, bhikkhave, sammaavaacaa ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa. 20. "And what, bhikkhus, is right speech that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The desisting from the four kinds of verbal misconduct, the abstaining, refraining, abstinence from them in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path:[Note 1109] this is right speech that is noble...a factor of the path. [Note 1109] Whereas mundane right speech is exercised in four different modes according to the type of wrong speech from which there is abstinence, on the occasion of the supramundane path, the single factor of right speech exercises the fourfold function of cutting off the tendencies towards the four kinds of wrong speech. The same principle applies to right action. ---------- So micchaavaacaaya pahaanaaya vaayamati, sammaavaacaaya upasampadaaya; svaassa hoti sammaavaayaamo. So sato micchaavaaca.m pajahati, sato sammaavaaca.m upasampajja viharati; saassa hoti sammaasati. Itiyime tayo dhammaa sammaavaaca.m anuparidhaavanti anuparivattanti, seyyathida.m sammaadi.t.thi, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati. 21. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong speech and to enter upon right speech: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong speech, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right speech: this is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three states run and circle around right speech, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness. -------------------- Han: The same feeling as in Right Intention. I had thought musaavaadaa verama.ni, pisu.naaya vaacaaya verama.ni, pharusaaya vaacaaya verama.ni, samphappalaapaa verama.ni are good enough as the path factor. I now realize that they still are liable to be affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment. Then, what has one to do for the Right Speech that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.? desisting from the four kinds of verbal misconduct, catuuhi vaciiduccaritehi aarati. the abstaining, virati. refraining, pa.tivirati. abstinence from them, verama.ni. [Han: By English translation, there is not much difference between the two types of Right Speech. But the Paa.li words, aarati, virati, and pa.tivirati, must be much stronger than just verama.ni.] Here again, (Note 1109) says that whereas mundane right speech is exercised in four different modes according to the type of wrong speech from which there is abstinence, on the occasion of the supramundane path, the single factor of right speech exercises the fourfold function of cutting off the tendencies towards the four kinds of wrong speech. The same principle applies to right action. with metta, Han #126985 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 9:01 am Subject: Thailand discussions next Jan sarahprocter... Dear Friends, There will be a one week trip with Ajahn Sujin for English discussion, 5th -11th Jan. The exact place hasn't been confirmed, but probably Hua Hin area. Also, after a few days in Bangkok, there will be a 3 day trip on the "NE side - Wang Nam Kheow", also for English discussion. Quite a few of us will be joining, including Ann, Lukas, Alberto, Nina (we hope), Robert and Phil for part of the first trip (we hope), Tom & Bev, Sukin & Azita (we assume). If anyone else might be interested to join, pls let me (or Sukin) know asap. It seems that for the second shorter trip in particular that they need confirmations as they have to pay deposits. Jagkrit, it would be really nice if you can join as you were such a help in arranging and participating in the discussions in Poland. Pls check with Sukin. Metta Sarah ===== #126986 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 9:21 am Subject: Re: Listening to the Perfections (3 - giving freedom from fear) kenhowardau Hi Phil, Enjoying your series. --- <. . .> > Ph: I never like "should" since for me it sounds like an encouragement to try. --- KH: There might be an easy solution to the problem of conventional language in a Dhamma discussion. Simply remember that *all* words refer to paramattha dhammas. The word "should" is no exception. Even though dhammas are impersonal (with no concerns about personal responsibility) they *should* know the difference between giving with panna and giving without panna. In the same way, the parts of a car are inanimate but they *should* fit together, and the axle *should* be strong enough (etc). Ken H #126987 From: Herman Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 10:00 am Subject: The two nows egberdina When people talk about the reality of the present moment, they mean the reality of the present phenomenon. Because that is what arises. Then there is the present moment of conditions, and this is not accessible as phenomena. As an example, it is like looking at the moon. We say we see the moon now, but we do not mean that we see the moon as it is now, we see it as it was about 1.3 seconds ago, which is how long light takes to travel from the moon to our eyes, and gets processed into something that arises.. The present moment of the conditions for any sensing or thinking or doing has already long passed by the time there is the present awareness. The now of conditions does not co-incide with the now of related phenomena - conditions arise at one time, related phenomena at another. When there is confusion between or ignorance of these two "nows", the illusion of a self that controls phenomena can take hold. There is no amount of being aware of present phenomena that can cut through the illusion, though. That is because it is not apparent that in being aware now, there is only awareness of conditions that are no longer now, but have already passed It is only when the normal delays between conditions and phenomena are altered, ie when expectations are no longer met, that the sense of a controlling self becomes altered and/or vanishes -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126988 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 10:25 am Subject: Re: The two nows truth_aerator Hello Herman, all Here is interesting thought. Lets assume that notion of radical impermanence is true. This means that: No same thing lasts for more than one moments. No same thing moves from one point to another. No same thing can be object for more than one moment. But this would mean that we cannot talk about the same thing. All talk about (citta & cetasika) is conceptual. We can't take exactly the same citta and talk about it. We can talk about same object. Also (citta & cetasika) would not have rise and fall because no same object can last for 3 moments (arising, persisting and falling)... No concept rises and falls, right? No aggregates rise and fall. No cittas rise and fall. No noble truths rise and fall... No citta is deluded or wise... Any comments? With best wishes, Alex #126989 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 10:41 am Subject: Unborn and Undying Awareness, citta, consciousness... truth_aerator Dear all, Consciousness cannot cognize its own non-existence after death or prior to its birth. Awareness cannot be aware of its own non-existence before birth or after death. Even if, lets say, there is one life - when one dies, one cannot know that one is dead. There is no consciousness, no awareness to cognize or be aware of that. Also if consciousness (citta) is momentary, it is the same. It itself cannot know its own non-existence. If aeons and aeons of existence in Samsara comes to an end, citta cannot know its own non-existence. Does this mean that Awareness is in a sense - "undying" even if it had limited amount to cognize? Any ideas, opinions, suggestions? With best wishes, Alex #126990 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 11:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote > My understanding of Buddhism is that it sees the end of suffering as > co-inciding with the abandoning of interest in any and all phenomena. > > If that is correct, how could it be extreme to realise that listening to > folks knowingly or unknowingly intent on being folks cannot possibly > deliver that Buddhist outcome? > > Just wondering :-) Again, I find that kind of extreme, and somewhat abstracted from the reality of everyday life, which, like it or not, we are stuck with til the end, and if we read the full transcript of the Buddha's life, even after "the end of attachment." The Buddha did not have to say "My body is like an old cart, full of aches and pains. Soon it will be time to put this old cart away," or something like that. Basically he complained about his 'human condition' even after having no remaining attachment, because Buddha himself was not an extremist and acknowledged the basic elements of life while living in the embodied world. So he accepted fellowship as one of the greatest tools of the path to the detachment that you suggest that you seek, and that is because the elements of life are not to be rejected but to be turned around and used for the purpose of the appropriate development. The flaws and failures along the way are unimportant. What is important is repeated engagement and gradual development. Your stated formulation, that the goal is "disinterest in all things" is incorrect in my view. In my view it is "unattachment from all things" that is important, ie, no vested interest. But does one have to be brain-dead boor in order to be detached? Buddha wasn't. He showed interest in people's lives and character makeup and many other things. One can be engaged and involved without any attachment, but only at the highest degree of development. So I would say that if one thinks the path is to *practice* indifference to all things one would be a liar and a curmudgeon, and would never develop the four immeasurables that shine metta and other loving qualities on other beings - equally important to the Buddha as anything else. The Buddha meant the path to be correct and balanced, not just an easy spiritual lobotomy, so I don't think such a direct path to nonexistence of self will work. A letting go of all worldly things, including oneself, is the result of correct understanding and practice, not itself the path. To make it the path is analogous to expecting to get to the end of a marathon run without running it. Just skip to the end - well it's impossible. Without running the full course, you can't even glimpse where the end is. It is only by going to the trouble to slowly develop all of the balanced qualities of the path, gradually and genuinely eradicating defilements and attachments, that the goal can be achieved, not by being dismissive of all things from within the mire. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #126991 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 12:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, Yes, the Buddha taught the Middle way between self torture and self indulgence... But in the context of 5th Century India, this mild form was something like this: One is a wandering Bhikkhu whose possessions are the ones that he can carry with himself from forest to forest, cave to cave, cemetery to cemetery, beg for food while contemplating rotting corpses. This was the mild form that Buddha taught which was looked down as too soft by some more extreme Indian Ascetics. When people followed this, they had a better possibility of Awakening... With best wishes, Alex #126992 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:20 pm Subject: Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Rob E, Nina & all, > > >________________________________ > > From: Robert E > > >....It stirs up a lot, as we are very attached to our loved ones, and yet are also very attached to the hope of detachment and of liberation from such painful involvements.... > .... > The following is an extract from another discussion on sadness in Poland. It occurred at the end of a lunch when we had a day's outing. I can't hear everything. > > Lukas and Khun Sujin were discussing sadness and unpleasant feeling, vedana. Thank you, Sarah. Looking at the components of the arising of sadness - vedana, sanna - does seem to remove it from the person and the personal. Hard to do, but good to contemplate. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126993 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, all, > > Yes, the Buddha taught the Middle way between self torture and self indulgence... But in the context of 5th Century India, this mild form was something like this: > > One is a wandering Bhikkhu whose possessions are the ones that he can carry with himself from forest to forest, cave to cave, cemetery to cemetery, beg for food while contemplating rotting corpses. This was the mild form that Buddha taught which was looked down as too soft by some more extreme Indian Ascetics. > > When people followed this, they had a better possibility of Awakening... Imagine having no possessions but being part of a culture where you could walk into a town and ask for food without shame, then spend your time helping others and contemplating the truth of existence. There are worse ways to live than wandering in the beautiful forests without worrying about your "stuff." I can imagine that there was a lot of joy in that life for those who were able to choose it. Even contemplating a corpse has many layers of perception, insight, appreciation and understanding, not necessarily a bad thing, when one is seeing through the temporary nature of this life. And if one could carry this understanding even for those possessions one has as a householder - not to mention looking in the mirror and contemplating one's own corpse while still alive - there are lots of opportunities for "seclusion" and detachment. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #126994 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:37 pm Subject: Re: The two nows epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > When people talk about the reality of the present moment, they mean the > reality of the present phenomenon. Because that is what arises. > > Then there is the present moment of conditions, and this is not accessible > as phenomena. > > As an example, it is like looking at the moon. We say we see the moon now, > but we do not mean that we see the moon as it is now, we see it as it was > about 1.3 seconds ago, which is how long light takes to travel from the > moon to our eyes, and gets processed into something that arises.. > > The present moment of the conditions for any sensing or thinking or doing > has already long passed by the time there is the present awareness. > > The now of conditions does not co-incide with the now of related phenomena > - conditions arise at one time, related phenomena at another. > > When there is confusion between or ignorance of these two "nows", the > illusion of a self that controls phenomena can take hold. > > There is no amount of being aware of present phenomena that can cut through > the illusion, though. That is because it is not apparent that in being > aware now, there is only awareness of conditions that are no longer now, > but have already passed > > It is only when the normal delays between conditions and phenomena are > altered, ie when expectations are no longer met, that the sense of a > controlling self becomes altered and/or vanishes. I hate to keep disagreeing with you, though it is somewhat fun, but I think you are wrong on the above analysis. It is only by thinking abstractly, removed from actual experience, that you can formulate a delay between "conditions" and "experience." There is no such delay, as experience only happens at the moment that it does, not at another moment. The full set of conditions that cause you to experience X at a particular time *is* the complete set of conditions. There are no "moon" conditions that you miss because you see a different "moon" than the one that takes place where the "moon" "is." That is not one's experience. I think it is a mistake to take what we think is scientific knowledge and apply it to what we think we experience. The moon you experience is the only one you experience. Any other moon is an object of thought, not of seeing, and that distinction is also one of experience, not of objective separation between a real moon and a facsimile. We are not fooled at all. We only have to worry about the experiential object now, not some other object we suppose we are missing. That other object does not exist apart from my intersection with a visual object at a particular locus of experience, and Einstein will bear me out. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #126995 From: Herman Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The two nows egberdina Hi Alex, Good to be discussing with you again. On 9 October 2012 10:25, truth_aerator wrote: > ** > > > Hello Herman, all > > Here is interesting thought. > Lets assume that notion of radical impermanence is true. This means that: > > No same thing lasts for more than one moments. > No same thing moves from one point to another. > No same thing can be object for more than one moment. > > Yes, definitely interesting thoughts. But this would mean that we cannot talk about the same thing. > > All talk about (citta & cetasika) is conceptual. We can't take exactly the > same citta and talk about it. We can talk about same object. > I agree. > > Also (citta & cetasika) would not have rise and fall because no same > object can last for 3 moments (arising, persisting and falling)... > No concept rises and falls, right? > > OK. > No aggregates rise and fall. No cittas rise and fall. No noble truths rise > and fall... No citta is deluded or wise... > > Any comments? > > You make it clear that turning what appears as a flux without apparent beginning or ending into discrete components that exist individually and separately is riddled with a whole lot of difficulties. > With best wishes, > > Alex > > > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126996 From: Herman Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unborn and Undying Awareness, citta, consciousness... egberdina Hi Alex, On 9 October 2012 10:41, truth_aerator wrote: > ** > > > Dear all, > > Consciousness cannot cognize its own non-existence after death or prior to > its birth. Awareness cannot be aware of its own non-existence before birth > or after death. Even if, lets say, there is one life - when one dies, one > cannot know that one is dead. There is no consciousness, no awareness to > cognize or be aware of that. > > Also if consciousness (citta) is momentary, it is the same. It itself > cannot know its own non-existence. > > If aeons and aeons of existence in Samsara comes to an end, citta cannot > know its own non-existence. > > Does this mean that Awareness is in a sense - "undying" even if it had > limited amount to cognize? > > Any ideas, opinions, suggestions? > > I agree that consciousness cannot know its own absence - nor can it know beginnings or endings - in that sense it could appear as undying to itself. > With best wishes, > > Alex > > _,_._,___ > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126997 From: Herman Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. egberdina Hi RobE, On 9 October 2012 11:54, Robert E wrote: > ** > > > Hi Herman. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote > > > My understanding of Buddhism is that it sees the end of suffering as > > co-inciding with the abandoning of interest in any and all phenomena. > > > > If that is correct, how could it be extreme to realise that listening to > > folks knowingly or unknowingly intent on being folks cannot possibly > > deliver that Buddhist outcome? > > > > Just wondering :-) > > Again, I find that kind of extreme, and somewhat abstracted from the > reality of everyday life, which, like it or not, we are stuck with til the > end, and if we read the full transcript of the Buddha's life, even after > "the end of attachment." The Buddha did not have to say "My body is like an > old cart, full of aches and pains. Soon it will be time to put this old > cart away," or something like that. Basically he complained about his > 'human condition' even after having no remaining attachment, because Buddha > himself was not an extremist and acknowledged the basic elements of life > while living in the embodied world. So he accepted fellowship as one of the > greatest tools of the path to the detachment that you suggest that you > seek, and that is because the elements of life are not to be rejected but > to be turned around and used for the purpose of the appropriate > development. The flaws and failures along the way are unimportant. What is > important is repeated engagement and gradual development. > > Your stated formulation, that the goal is "disinterest in all things" is > incorrect in my view. In my view it is "unattachment from all things" that > is important, ie, no vested interest. But does one have to be brain-dead > boor in order to be detached? Buddha wasn't. He showed interest in people's > lives and character makeup and many other things. One can be engaged and > involved without any attachment, but only at the highest degree of > development. So I would say that if one thinks the path is to *practice* > indifference to all things one would be a liar and a curmudgeon, and would > never develop the four immeasurables that shine metta and other loving > qualities on other beings - equally important to the Buddha as anything > else. The Buddha meant the path to be correct and balanced, not just an > easy spiritual lobotomy, so I don't think such a direct path to > nonexistence of self will work. A letting go of all worldly things, > including oneself, is the result of correct understanding and practice, not > itself the path. To make it the path is analogous to expecting to get to > the end of a marathon run without running it. Just skip to the end - well > it's impossible. Without running the full course, you can't even glimpse > where the end is. > > It is only by going to the trouble to slowly develop all of the balanced > qualities of the path, gradually and genuinely eradicating defilements and > attachments, that the goal can be achieved, not by being dismissive of all > things from within the mire. > > Our conversation is probably getting away from us. I questioned the wisdom of getting advice regarding the ending of suffering from anyone who also still suffers. You are finding lots of reasons to find that position extreme. You will also find DN12 extreme then, but you will have to take that up with it's main speaker :-) "Lohicca, there are these three sorts of teacher who are worthy of criticism in the world, and when anyone criticizes these sorts of teachers, the criticism is true, factual, righteous, & unblameworthy. Which three? "There is the case where a certain teacher has not attained the goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home life into homelessness. etc etc ..................... "There is, Lohicca, a teacher who is not worthy of criticism in the world." "But which teacher, Master Gotama, is not worthy of criticism in the world?" "There is the case, Lohicca, where a Tathagata appears in the world, worthy & rightly self-awakened. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure. "A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure,like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?' "So after some time he abandons his mass of wealth, large or small; leaves his circle of relatives, large or small; shaves off his hair & beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. "When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by the rules of the monastic code, seeing danger in the slightest faults. Consummate in his virtue, he guards the doors of his senses, is possessed of mindfulness & alertness, and is content > > Best, > Rob E. > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126998 From: Herman Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The two nows egberdina Hi RobE, On 9 October 2012 13:37, Robert E wrote: > ** > > > Hi Herman. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > When people talk about the reality of the present moment, they mean the > > reality of the present phenomenon. Because that is what arises. > > > > Then there is the present moment of conditions, and this is not > accessible > > as phenomena. > > > > As an example, it is like looking at the moon. We say we see the moon > now, > > but we do not mean that we see the moon as it is now, we see it as it was > > about 1.3 seconds ago, which is how long light takes to travel from the > > moon to our eyes, and gets processed into something that arises.. > > > > The present moment of the conditions for any sensing or thinking or doing > > has already long passed by the time there is the present awareness. > > > > The now of conditions does not co-incide with the now of related > phenomena > > - conditions arise at one time, related phenomena at another. > > > > When there is confusion between or ignorance of these two "nows", the > > illusion of a self that controls phenomena can take hold. > > > > There is no amount of being aware of present phenomena that can cut > through > > the illusion, though. That is because it is not apparent that in being > > aware now, there is only awareness of conditions that are no longer now, > > but have already passed > > > > It is only when the normal delays between conditions and phenomena are > > altered, ie when expectations are no longer met, that the sense of a > > controlling self becomes altered and/or vanishes. > > I hate to keep disagreeing with you, > It is fine. Really. > though it is somewhat fun, but I think you are wrong on the above > analysis. It is only by thinking abstractly, removed from actual > experience, that you can formulate a delay between "conditions" and > "experience." There is no such delay, as experience only happens at the > moment that it does, not at another moment. > > > The full set of conditions that cause you to experience X at a particular > time *is* the complete set of conditions. There are no "moon" conditions > that you miss because you see a different "moon" than the one that takes > place where the "moon" "is." That is not one's experience. > > I think it is a mistake to take what we think is scientific knowledge and > apply it to what we think we experience. The moon you experience is the > only one you experience. Any other moon is an object of thought, not of > seeing, and that distinction is also one of experience, not of objective > separation between a real moon and a facsimile. > > We are not fooled at all. We only have to worry about the experiential > object now, not some other object we suppose we are missing. That other > object does not exist apart from my intersection with a visual object at a > particular locus of experience, and Einstein will bear me out. > > OK. Then you say the eye is irrelevant to whatever is seen, because you don't experience the eye, do you? > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = > > __._._,___ > -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know #126999 From: "philip" Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:24 am Subject: Listening to the Perfections (4) (compassion vs panna/carefully consider citta) philofillet Dear group Sitting in a park waiting for my train home to start running again after a suicide. I heard... "....then the citta is accompanied by compassion, and he gives." I wondered what does compassion do that panna doesn't do? Doesn't undwrstanding condition giving as surely as compassion? ....he should carefully consider the citta when giving and see that it is gentle and tender. Leaving aside the "should" (thanks for that post Ken H, back to ypy and Nina latet) II am wondering if "citta" here can refer to a mind state composed of countless fleeting cittas. How can one "carefully consider" one ephemeral, billiin in a blink of an eye citta? Does one carefully consider a nimitta? ... not directly tied to dana but a very nice phrasing ...when one is unaware and does not listen to the Dhamma one is bound to be swept away by akysala...but when one listens often, even to what one has heard before and has been said before about daily life, one is reminded to be aware of realities and thus conditions are created for kusala... Phil