#127600	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2012 11:13 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 2 Sabbaasava Sutta: All the Taints (5)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Rob and Han,
Op 4-nov-2012, om 10:07 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven:

> 191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have
> elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose
> function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not
> attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment
> of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is
> future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
> And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are
> absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."
------
N: adding from the Tiika to these passages:
< The Tiika explains that the classifications of present, past and
future  as extent (or life span, addhaa), as continuity (serial
presence, santati) and as period, samaya, are figurative  expressions
(sapariyaaya), not literal (nippariyaaya). It explains that there are
other dhammas (aññe dhammaa) at present, that there were other
dhammas in the past and that there will be other dhammas in the future.
This refers to the classification of extent, addhaa, etc. Not to the
classification as to moment, kha.na).
As we shall see, only the classification according to moment, kha.na,
is to be taken literally.

N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is
nippariyaaya (literal).The last one is in the ultimate sense only.
There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan,
this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na.
We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this
lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death,
kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death
as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present
(santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body.
it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be
object of insight.

As to samaya, we read:  <any period among those such as one minute,
morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
is called 'present'.>

Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different
from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
function.
-------
Nina.





#127601	From: han tun <hantun1@... 
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2012 11:21 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 2 Sabbaasava Sutta: All the Taints (5)	 hantun1 
 	
Dear Nina,

Saadhu! Saadhu! Saadhu!
Thank you very much.
It is very useful.

with metta and respect,
Han

--- On Sun, 11/4/12, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
Dear Rob and Han,
Op 4-nov-2012, om 10:07 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven:

> 191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have
> elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose
> function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not
> attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment
> of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is
> future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
> And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are
> absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."
------
N: adding from the Tiika to these passages:
< The Tiika explains that the classifications of present, past and
future as extent (or life span, addhaa), as continuity (serial
presence, santati) and as period, samaya, are figurative expressions
(sapariyaaya), not literal (nippariyaaya). It explains that there are
other dhammas (aññe dhammaa) at present, that there were other
dhammas in the past and that there will be other dhammas in the future.
This refers to the classification of extent, addhaa, etc. Not to the
classification as to moment, kha.na).
As we shall see, only the classification according to moment, kha.na,
is to be taken literally.

N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is
nippariyaaya (literal).The last one is in the ultimate sense only.
There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan,
this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na.
We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this
lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death,
kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death
as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present
(santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body.
it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be
object of insight.

As to samaya, we read: <any period among those such as one minute,
morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
is called 'present'.>

Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different
from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
function.
-------
Nina.



#127602	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2012 11:24 pm 
Subject: The Story of Citta the Householder	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members,

The Story of Citta the Householder
[Translated from the Pali by Daw Mya Tin, MA]

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (73) and
(74) of this book, with reference to Thera Sudhamma and Citta the householder.

Citta, a householder, once met Thera Mahanama, one of the group of the first
five bhikkhus (Pancavaggis), going on an alms-round, and invited the thera to
his house. There, he offered alms-food to the thera and after listening to the
discourse given by him, Citta attained Sotapatti Fruition. Later, Citta built a
monastery in his mango grove. There, he looked to the needs of all bhikkhus who
came to the monastery and Bhikkhu Sudhamma was installed as the resident
bhikkhu.

One day, the two Chief Disciples of the Buddha, the Venerable Sariputta and the
Venerable Maha Moggallana, came to the monastery and after listening to the
discourse given by the Venerable Sariputta, Citta attained Anagami Fruition.
Then, he invited the two Chief Disciples to his house for alms-food the next
day. He also invited Thera Sudhamma, but Thera Sudhamma refused in anger and
said, "You invite me only after the other two." Citta repeated his invitation,
but it was turned down. Nevertheless, Thera Sudhamma went to the house of Citta
early on the following day. But when invited to enter the house, Thera Sudhamma
refused and said that he would not sit down as he was going on his alms-round.
But when he saw the things that were to be offered to the two Chief Disciples,
he envied them so much that he could not restrain his anger. He abused Citta and
said, "I don't want to stay in your monastery any longer," and left the house in
anger.

From there, he went to the Buddha and reported everything that had happened. To
him, the Buddha said, "You have insulted a lay-disciple who is endowed with
faith and generously. You'd better go back to him and own up your mistake."
Sudhamma did as he was told by the Buddha, but Citta would not be appeased; so
he returned to the Buddha for the second time. The Buddha, knowing that the
pride of Sudhamma had dwindled by this time, said, "My son, a good bhikkhu
should have no attachment; a good bhikkhu should not be conceited and say 'This
is my monastery, this is my place, these are my lay-disciples,' etc., for in one
with such thoughts, covetousness and pride will increase."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 73: The foolish bhikkhu desires praise for qualities he does not have,
precedence among bhikkhus, authority in the monasteries, and veneration from
those unrelated to him.

Verse 74: "Let both laymen and bhikkhus think that things are done because of
me; let them obey me in all matters, great and small." Such being the thoughts
of the fool, his greed and his pride grow.

At the end of the discourse, Sudhamma went to the house of Citta, and this time
they got reconciled; and within a few days, Sudhamma attained arahatship.

************
Love Buddha's dhamma,
yawares/sirikanya


#127603	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 12:40 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: mindfulness of death.	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Jagkrit

    Thanks for the following explanation:
>
> JJ: I will try to explain in my point of view.

   Thank you, Jagkrit. I read it and a lot or most of it makes sense and the part
that doesn't would if there were conditions for me to read carefully, But there
hardly ever are! Let's talk about it in Thaiand, assuming you're coming for the
trip to the North East from the 15-18(?), hope you are.

   Phil


#127604	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 12:42 am 
Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 7, no 4.	 philofillet 
 	
Hi Nina

> > Is this why kusala is relatively rare? Because so many cetasikas
> > are necessary for assisting in the arising of a kusala citta? Or is
> > kusala rare simply because so much akusala has been accumulated?
> ------
> N: Because so much akusala has been accumulated, kusala has not yet
> become our nature.
> --------

   I see. That makes sense. Thanks.

   Phil


#127605	From: "Buddhatrue" <buddhatrue@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 12:58 am 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 buddhatrue 
 	
Hi Howard,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> just to let you know about  the trouble our  friend Howard is facing after the
encounter with Sandy..
>
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Upasaka
> To: moellerdieter@...
> Cc: upasaka@...
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 1:45 PM
> Subject: Fwd: The Storm
>
>
>
>
> Hi again, Dieter -
>
>
>     We are still without power and will likely remain so for a couple more
weeks! Also, other than on the day after the storm, when the tree service we
hired cut some limbs off the monster tree on our house, no further work has been
done! This is VERY worrisome, as the tree did break through the roof into the
attic in several spots. I fear any heavy rain that would cause a flooded attic
or even a roof collapse (God forbid!). Supposedly today or tomorrow they will
use a large crane to lift the tree off the house. I sure hope so! Another
problem is that the temperature has been dropping to close to freezing at night,
and it is VERY difficult to find gasoline (petrol) anywhere for me to buy to use
in our portable generator. Dieter, should any folks on dsg or kd-list be
wondering about me, please let them know. (I'm not very good at sending emails
from my phone.
>
>
> With metta,
> Howard
>


I send my well-wishes to you...even though you may not know it for a few weeks.
I'm afraid you are going to have to depend on yourself. Obama popped over to
give a speech about how he was going to help, but then promptly left the next
day to hob-nob with celebrities in Las Vegas. People are freezing and digging
through the garbage for food, and he is still campaigning. Class act.

I will be praying for you and hoping that everyone in that ravaged area finds
safety and shelter.

Metta,
James


 	
AdChoices

#127606	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 3:13 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi Ken H,all,

you wrote:


Welcome back, even if only as a lurker. :-)

D: thanks , Ken   ;-)

(: Actually I have still a bit of bad conscience ,not answering to last postings
( in particular Sarah may forgive me ) because I wanted to avoid the repetition
of arguments in a discussion from a " 2 camps " perspective , going on since
quite some time

'KH: I am sure I have been one of the main offenders there. But doesn't the same
sort of thing happen in other forums too? '


D:  No, I don't/didn't  feel offended by anybody ..though a bit  tired , because
not seeing progress in mutual understanding .
Yes, it happens in other forums too .  Perhaps a lack of acceptance that each
side can learn from the other  (and should as the Buddha pointed out ,
refering e.g. to those who are advanced in theory and the  others advanced in
practise) . I am not excluding myself ..well , Mana sticks around ..;-)

KH: At a boat builders' forum, for example, what would happen if one member
thought there should be a giant hole in the hull? Would other members agree to
disagree, and continue to discuss finer points with that member (deck design and
sail preferences)? Or would they refrain from all other topics until the matter
of the hull had been cleared up?
That's the way I feel about Dhamma discussions. Until the basic
right-understanding has been agreed upon I don't want to hear a word about finer
points.

D: that is what I meant by :
"I wonder whether it makes sense to try a new start having (right) understanding
in mind ( the Thai word 'khao djai'..khao= enter ,
djai in a double meaning of mind and  heart.)   Perhaps a base of consensus
understanding may achieved when first  the aspects of  mundane right
understanding are agreed upon . It may be easier to accept differences in view
of the super-mundane."

We find the definition of  right understanding in MN 117  , specifying  two :
mundane (basic) and supermundane truths , each valid in its domain:
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right
view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions
[of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a
factor of the path.

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in
acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed.
There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next
world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there
are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim
this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in
acquisitions."

"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of
the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of
discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of
right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is
free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right
view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."



KH: I am not suggesting the basic understanding is easy. Most people will never
understand in their present lifetime that the Dhamma is a way of understanding
the present reality, not a list of things-to-do.
It's not easy, but that's what we're here for. :-)



D: here we meet the  knack of misunderstandings:
  in consideration of above mentioned definition you start.with the supermundane
right understanding.. however without agreement to/acceptance of  the basics of
the former.
And there are quite a number of things-to-do on  basic level.


with Metta Dieter






#127607	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 5:29 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipaka is result of a deed?	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Phil,
Op 1-nov-2012, om 1:37 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

> A question. "Akusala vipaka is the result of an unwholesome deed."
> We hear that again and again. But today I wondered. Why do we say
> it is the result of a "deed", isn't it the result of a kamma?
>
> Indeed it would be better for me to think in terms of deeds. These
> days I (akusala cittas in this case) am underestimating the
> importance of convetional deeds, and am more interested in the
> dhammas behind them. That can be dangerous. I might try to justify
> bad deeds by thinking that there are good intentions (kusala
> cittas) behind them.
------
N: We can use the word deed, but when we are more precise it is the
cetanaa that motivates a deed. A bad deed is motivated by akusala
cetanaa, never by kusala cetanaa.
------
Nina.





#127608	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 6:03 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Living alone. (K.K. continued).	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Phil,
Op 3-nov-2012, om 0:33 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

> No need to struggle or insist to understand what "sati" is, or how
> much, or when. Just hanging out with cittas, getting a little
> little little bit more familiar with their characteristics, little
> by little. That is more than good enough, there can be no path to
> understanding rooted in wanting understanding, wanting awareness
> now. No way.
------
N: You explained that very well.

Nina.





#127609	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 6:38 am 
Subject: the storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi All,

just received news from Howard  , which I copied for your kind information:

" Finally yesterday the tree was removed from the roof after all-day work. There
is extensive roof damage and attic damage. Today, taking several hours, a
construction-company owner who is a good friend of ours tacked up a huge tarp on
the roof, covering the deep holes and protecting the attic from the rain of the
BIG storm supposed to come on Wednesday.
     We still have no electric power, and the night-time temperature has been
near freezing. We DO have a portable generator, but despite politician promises,
it's an ordeal to find gas (petrol), and it requires hours of standing on line
when and if I can find a station that even HAS gas in the pumps. But, thank God,
we are personally okay."

news one wouldn't  expect  coming from Big Apple , would one?
Joining all with garuna in mind .. as it is said ' a problem shared is a problem
halved ',

with Metta Dieter




#127610	From: "Christine" <cjforsyth1@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 7:16 am 
Subject: Re: the storm	 christine_fo... 
 	
Thanks for the update Dieter!

with metta
Chris

>


#127611	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 7:23 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
you are wellcome, Chris  ;-)

with Metta Dieter


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Christine
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 9:16 PM
   Subject: [dsg] Re: the storm




   Thanks for the update Dieter!

   with metta
   Chris

   >







#127612	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 8:58 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Dieter,

-----
<. . .>
D: that is what I meant by :
"I wonder whether it makes sense to try a new start having (right) understanding
in mind ( the Thai word 'khao djai'..khao= enter ,
djai in a double meaning of mind and  heart.)   Perhaps a base of consensus
understanding may achieved when first  the aspects of  mundane right
understanding are agreed upon . It may be easier to accept differences in view
of the super-mundane."
------

KH: Yes that would be good but I must warn you, you and I have two very
different understandings of the word `mundane.'

---------
> D: We find the definition of  right understanding in MN 117  , specifying  two
:
mundane (basic) and supermundane truths , each valid in its domain:
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right
view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions
[of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a
factor of the path.
---------

KH: According to my understanding, mundane right understanding is satipatthana,
which takes a conditioned dhamma as its object. Satipatthana is not, on its own,
part of the path. On its own it results in fortunate rebirth, it does not result
in the *end* of rebirth.

As I see it, mundane right understanding can be pariyatti (theoretical) or
patipatti (direct). Suparmundane right-understanding, however, is pativeda
(complete, penetrating, right-understanding) which can take either a conditioned
dhamma or nibbana as its object.

Pativeda results in the end of rebirth.

----------------
> D: "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results
in
acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed.
There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next
world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there
are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim
this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in
acquisitions."
-----------------

KH: The objects of satipatthana listed in that quote are conditioned dhammas.
Admittedly they have been given conventional names, but each of them is a
reality that exists *in the conditioned world.*

-------------------
> D: "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a
factor of
the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of
discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of
right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is
free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right
view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."
-------------------

KH: Here the sutta is talking about pativeda - complete, penetrating insight -
which experiences an unconditioned reality.

---------------------------
<. . .>
> D: here we meet the  knack of misunderstandings:
   in consideration of above mentioned definition you start.with the supermundane
right understanding.. however without agreement to/acceptance of  the basics of
the former.
And there are quite a number of things-to-do on  basic level.
---------------------------------------------

KH: I think this pinpoints the difference in our understandings.

When you say there are things-to-do at the mundane level you seem to be
attributing a degree of reality to concepts. You seem to be saying that the
concept of control over realities, and the concept of a controlling self,
actually have a degree of validity.

But in the Buddha's teaching they have no validity at all. Do they?

Ken H


#127613	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 9:26 am 
Subject: Degrees of panna?	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Nina

     In a Poland talk I heard someone say "sharp panna" and he was laughed at,
but isn't it true that an advanced degree of panna is penetrative, seeing into
realities?
     Can you write a little about degrees of panna? Do the degrees of panna
correspond  go the stages of insight? Thanks.

    Phil


#127614	From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro <dhammasaro@... 
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2012 5:05 pm 
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 dhammasaro 
 	
Good friends all,

1.  A local Texas food company (New Braunfels Smoke House) finally said they can
ensure food will be delivered, via USA UPS/FedEx this coming Tuesday, to
Levitown, Long island, New York.  Our Thai-American friends have a small
electric generator and they are sharing with neighbors; but, short on
gasoline!!!  Hopefully, the government electric will be restored before
Tuesday!!!

2.  Our good friend Howard is in the same general area...  someone please advise
me his address/phone number so I can send food that does needed to be cooked or
warmed...  it should be delivered by Tuesday...

peace...

yours in the Dhamma-vinaya,

Chuck

To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: cjforsyth1@...
<...>
The same goes from me also.  Holding Howard and his family in my heart with
metta.


#127615	From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro <dhammasaro@... 
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2012 5:20 pm 
Subject: Correction: The Storm	 dhammasaro 
 	
Food that does not need to be cooked nor warmed...  [sorry for the omission -
bummers]

From: dhammasaro@...


Good friends all,

1.  A local Texas food company (New Braunfels Smoke House) finally said they can
ensure food will be delivered, via USA UPS/FedEx this coming Tuesday, to
Levitown, Long island, New York.  Our Thai-American friends have a small
electric generator and they are sharing with neighbors; but, short on
gasoline!!!  Hopefully, the government electric will be restored before
Tuesday!!!

<...>


#127616	From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro <dhammasaro@... 
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2012 5:31 pm 
Subject: FW: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 dhammasaro 
 	
Good friend Howard,

I found your e-mail addy.

Please send me your address and phone number so I can send you some cooked
food...

It should arrive by close of business Tuesday.

yours in the Dhamma-vinaya,

Chuck
<...>


#127617	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 7:42 pm 
Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 7, no 7.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

We cling to sati and we try to control it. Acharn Sujin reminded us
that sati is sankhårakkhandha, the khandha of “formations” or
activities. We learn through the Abhidhamma that there are five
khandhas:

rúpakkhandha (rúpas)

vedanåkkhandha (feelings)

saññåkkhandha (remembrance or perception)

sankhårakkhandha (formations or activities)

vi~n~naanakkhandha (cittas)

In the khandha of “formations” are included all cetasikas, mental
factors, except feeling and remembrance. Thus, all sobhana cetasikas
(beautiful mental factors) and akusala cetasikas are included in
sankhårakkhandha. Both good qualities and bad qualities have been
accumulated from life to life. Sankhårakkhandha conditions this
moment of kusala citta or of akusala citta. The sobhana cetasikas
that have been accumulated support one another so that they can
condition this moment of right awareness. All the moments of kusala
such as generosity, síla, mettå, the moments of studying and
considering the Dhamma are conditions for the growth of paññå. If
there was very little sati in the past how can we expect a great deal
of mindfulness today? Acharn Sujin said:

“Sankhårakkhandha, we all read about it. But at this moment of
wanting to do something about sati, one forgets about
sankhårakkhandha. It is not self, it is the khandha of formations.
What has been accumulated until this moment will be a condition for
the arising of sati. It can arise if the conditions are right.”

We may not have considered enough the Dhamma in our daily life. We
may have misconceptions about the object of sati: any reality which
appears now. Or we may cling to calm; we may forget that the aim of
the development of vipassanå is more understanding of the object
which appears, not calm. When the conditions are not right sati
cannot arise, it is sankhårakkhandha.

Knowing that sati is sankhårakkhandha will prevent us from expecting
the impossible and from becoming discouraged when there is lack of
sati. It will prevent us from trying to control sati. We should know
that we have accumulated conditions for all kinds of defilements.
When there are conditions for sati it arises already, before we
thought about it. It arises and performs its function of being
mindful of the reality appearing at the present moment.

Our interest in the Dhamma today could not arise without conditions
for it. In past lives we must have listened to the Dhamma. We listen
again today and we shall listen again in the future, only in order to
understand nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. If we are not forgetful of
the realities which appear and we develop understanding with a
sincere inclination, nåma can be known as nåma and rúpa as rúpa.





**********

Nina.



#127618	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 8:26 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Degrees of panna?	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Phil,
Op 4-nov-2012, om 23:26 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

> In a Poland talk I heard someone say "sharp panna" and he was
> laughed at, but isn't it true that an advanced degree of panna is
> penetrative, seeing into realities?
------
N: We can also say: keen pa~n ~naa. That is what he meant, the word
does not matter. So long as one understands the characteristic.
-----
> Ph: Can you write a little about degrees of panna? Do the degrees
> of panna correspond go the stages of insight?
-------
N: There are many ways of classifying pa~n~naa and it has many
degrees. Pa~n~naa stemming from listening, sutta maya ~naa.na,
pa~n~naa stemming from considering, cinta maya ~naa.na, pa~n~naa
stemming from developing, bhaavanna may ~naa.na.
In the Pa.tisambidhaa magga (Path of Discrimination), all the objects
of which direct understanding has to be developed are expounded, and
nothing is excluded.
We also read <Understanding of restraint after hearing is knowledge
what consists in virtue >(siila). Kh Sujin explained here: listening
and practice. Then the whole range of siila is mentioned, also
including <Through the contemplation of impermanence in the case of
perception of permanence virtue is in the sense of its restraint,
virtue is in the sense of non-transgression. > There are many aspects
of siila, and they are not merely for reading.
Then concentration is mentioned: 25 meanings.
We have to consider also: pariyatti, pa.tipatti and pa.tivedha.
Then think of the three rounds: three rounds of understanding the
noble Truths: sacca ~naa.na, understanding of what has to be known
and what the Path is; kicca ~naa.na, understanding of the task, that
is, satipa.t.thaana; kata ~naa.na: understanding of what has been
realized, the realisation of the truth.
Sacca ~naa.na has to be very firm, firm about the object of right
understanding, firm understanding of what the Path is, and when
pariyatti is not strong enough there cannot be sacca ~naa.na, as Kh
sujin explained.

When satipa.t.thaana has been developed it can condition the
different stages of vipassanaa ~naanas. All this is not theory. It is
a long process of becoming detached from conditioned realities  until
the unconditioned reality, nibbaana, can be realized. But the
development of pa~n~naa has to begin now, taking whatever object
presents itself.

------
Nina.



#127619	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 11:00 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Chuck,
How very kind of you. I have his address, but do not know whether
phone is still the same. :
516-333-6977, and cell phone number is 516-642-6977
Howard Wasserman
1977 Valentines Road
         Westbury, NY 11590
         U.S.A
Nina.
Op 4-nov-2012, om 7:31 heeft Maipenrai Dhammasaro het volgende
geschreven:

> Please send me your address and phone number so I can send you some
> cooked food...





#127620	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2012 11:33 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Dear Chuck and Nina,

I   assume  what  Howard needs is  petrol..no real problem of (cooked)  food.

with Metta Dieter

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nina van Gorkom
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 1:00 PM
   Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm



   Dear Chuck,
   How very kind of you. I have his address, but do not know whether
   phone is still the same. :
   516-333-6977, and cell phone number is 516-642-6977
   Howard Wasserman
   1977 Valentines Road
   Westbury, NY 11590
   U.S.A
   Nina.
   Op 4-nov-2012, om 7:31 heeft Maipenrai Dhammasaro het volgende
   geschreven:

   > Please send me your address and phone number so I can send you some
   > cooked food...

   






#127621	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 12:06 am 
Subject: Nice one!	 philofillet 
 	
Dear group


      I like this one that I just heard while jogging:

     "We do not know what our next thinking will be, kusala or akusala. So why do
we fear anything to arise - there are conditions for it arising"

      Nina, how to respond to someone who says this is determinism or whatever it
is called? I would say understanding of whatever is conditioned to arise can
develop,  with alobha and  other conascent kusala. Including saddha, confidence
that whatever has arisen will have conditions to arise again. Good answer?

       Back to the jogging

        Phil


#127622	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 12:12 am 
Subject: The Debate : Knowing/Fixing/Examine	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members.

The Debate Of King Milinda
[Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala]

#12. "What is the characteristic mark of consciousness?"

"Knowing, O king."

"Give me an illustration."

"As a watchman in the city square would know someone
was coming, whichever direction he came from; so,
when a man sees an object, hears a sound, smells an odour,
tastes a savour, feels a touch or knows an idea; it is by consciousness that he
knows it."

----------------------
#13. "What is the characteristic mark of initial
application?"

"Fixing, O king."

"Give me an illustration."

"As a carpenter fixes an accurately cut tenon into a
mortice, thus fixing is the characteristic of initial
application."

--------------------------
#14. "What is the characteristic mark of sustained
application?"

"Examining again and again."

"Give me an illustration."

"Like the striking of a gong is initial application; like
the reverberation is sustained application."

************
yawares


#127623	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 12:16 am 
Subject: Vietnam 1	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

We've been in Hanoi (North Vietnam) for just over a day and a night. We're
staying on the large West Lake in the centre of Hanoi and it's very beautiful
indeed. Hanoi is really a pleasant surprise - just delightful roads and lanes
with lots of trees, colourful markets, bikes and scooters everywhere, smiling,
friendly people.... Arriving by plane, beautiful countryside all around... 

Jon and I arrived after the group from Thailand and were so touched that one of
the Vietnamese Dhamma friends, T.Tam, stayed behind to meet us and bring us to
Hanoi. As soon as we arrived, it was time for the first discussion yesterday
evening in a lovely old building with about 50 keen and friendlyVietnamese
students (of all ages) sitting around a large table.


Ajahn Sujin suggested we start with one word dhamma. What is it? Are you
interested in life? So what is it? Tam (senior) who recently asked qus on DSG
translates as we go along with incredible skill as not everyone speaks English.
She is also responsible for most of the group being here for the discussions.
Some have listened to A.Sujin on the audio we've uploaded, but for many, it's
the first time they've heard about understanding realities at this moments. Many
have been on meditation retreats in Burma and elsewhere, they've listened to
monks and teachers talking about "practice" as something separate from dhamma or
Abhidhamma study and understanding.

At one point we were talking about understanding seeing, and the young man
sitting next to me, has written in my notebook: "So what? Regarding solving
problem in life?"  I wrote a note back about understanding dhammas (realities)
as anatta, as not self - the only way that problems will ever be solved.

There was a really long, detailed qu about breath and someone's practice of
awareness of breath. A.Sujin asked: "What is the purpose of meditation?" She
talked about avijja not understanding reality at this moment. 

I think that for many people who have followed a meditation practice for a long
time, to hear about ignorance at this moment, wrong practice and the importance
of understanding seeing now, is all rather shocking. We're so used to the idea
of a self following steps, DOING something...... not easy at all. Some people
really appreciated it, but certainly not everyone!

Metta

Sarah
====



#127624	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 12:37 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vietnam 2	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

I thought of Phil last night as I had a little mosquito keeping me awake:-)
Breakfast with K.Sujin, Azita, Betty and other friends outside by the lake. 

Morning discussion in one of the oldest hotels in Hanoi - a beautiful building,
like one of the old houses in Suzhou, China, with dark pannelling, fish pond in
the centre and lots of lovely wooden detail. 

Avijja and attachment. After seeing, avijja or avijja with attachment almost all
the time. Just not enough understanding of the Teachings to understand a reality
at a time. 

If there's no understanding, it's useless to just read or listen or do anything
which is not the understanding of reality now.

Lots of qus about practice. 

KS: So who practices? Why do you practice? 

Ans: It's helpful for life.

KS: What is life? If there is no seeing, is there life? If there is no hearing,
is there life? Do you expect something from practice? 

Ans: To discover myself.

KS: So it's you! How can there be clear comprehension of "no you"  so that there
is not the expectation of something for you? This is the way to have less
attachment to "you".

Qus about postures, body, A.Naeb's teachings, sitting, standing...... all back
to understanding reality now, one word at a time!
****
A lovely lunch in another beautiful building..... a treat for us to have such a
civilised lunch with friends. At lunch, Tam brought up her qu that she'd raised
on DSG and another friend from S.Vietnam asked about being mindful whilst eating
and so on. More on wrong practice and ignorance!

Jon and I took a rest (and swim) whilst others went sight-seeing. After so much
travel recently, we've both been pretty tired and needed to prepare for the
early evening discussion.

More qus now, more regulars, those who are keen to hear more. Lots more on self
practising, going to meditation centres as opposed to pariyatti and patipatti
(reaching/approaching reality with understanding). Forget the word 'practice'! 

Saddha and all wholesome dhammas are good friends. Ignorance and unwholesome
dhammas are bad friends.

Very happy to meet many new Vietnames friends with such a keen interest in the
Dhamma - I'm sure more of them will join us here on DSG in due course, though
internet access may be difficult for some.

Look forward to catching up with the posts tomorrow.

Metta

Sarah
==========


#127625	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 12:38 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Sarah,
I am delighted with you report. Wonderful that so many people came to
listen. I liked the couleur locale. Do many speak French?
Nina.
Op 5-nov-2012, om 14:16 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

> We've been in Hanoi (North Vietnam) for just over a day and a
> night. We're staying on the large West Lake in the centre of Hanoi
> and it's very beautiful indeed.





#127626	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 1:04 am 
Subject: Re:Q [dsg] Vietnam 2	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Sarah and Han (for the Pali!),
Op 5-nov-2012, om 14:37 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

> If there's no understanding, it's useless to just read or listen or
> do anything which is not the understanding of reality now.
--------
N: Another lovely report, wish I had been there.
When considering reality now, it makes such a difference to read Pali
texts from the Anguttara Nikaaya. I was just going over some Pali
passages, from Gair Karunatillake, transl by John Kelly:
Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekadhamma.m pi samanupassaami, yo eva.m
saddhammassa sammosaaya antaradhaanaaya sa.mvattati, yathayida.m,
bhikkhave, pamaado. Pamaado, bhikkhave, saddhammassa sammosaaya
antaradhaanaaya sa.mvattatiiti.
Monks, indeed I do not perceive any single mental quality that thus
leads to the confusion and disappearance of the true doctrine, other
than negligence.     Negligence, monks, leads to the confusion and
disappearance of the true doctrine.
--------
N: Here we see that it is important to understand that seeing now,
visible object now essential. That is asammosa, non-forgetfulness. I
think of the student who did not understand that this is the only way
to solve the problems of life, of sorrow, separation, disease, death.
He asked; why understanding seeing...So necessary to understand death
at each moment, momentary death. (Can you tell him, Sarah? And my
warmest regards to all students)
Text: Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekadhamma.m pi samanupassaami, ya.m
eva.m saddhammassa sammosaaya antaradhaanaaya sa.mvattati,
yathayida.m, bhikkhave, kosajja.m. Kosajja.m, bhikkhave, saddhamassa
sammosaaya antaradhaanaaya sa.mvattatiiti.
Monks, indeed I do not perceive any single mental quality that thus
leads to the confusion and disappearance of the true doctrine, other
than sloth.     Sloth, monks, leads to the confusion and
disappearance of the true doctrine.
------
N: Seeing the danger of being neglectful and lazy now, wanting to do
something else first instead of understanding whatever appears now.
All these texts are so meaningful when having in mind that the
reality now has to be understood.
-------
Nina.








#127627	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 2:25 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Nice one!	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Phil,
Op 5-nov-2012, om 14:06 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

>  I would say understanding of whatever is conditioned to arise can
> develop, with alobha and other conascent kusala. Including saddha,
> confidence that whatever has arisen will have conditions to arise
> again. Good answer?
------
N: Yes, good.
It has nothing to do with determinism.
-----
Nina.





#127628	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 5:02 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi KenH,

you wrote:

KH: According to my understanding, mundane right understanding is satipatthana,
which takes a conditioned dhamma as its object. Satipatthana is not, on its own,
part of the path. On its own it results in fortunate rebirth, it does not result
in the *end* of rebirth.

D: the Buddha distinguished between the right understanding of the wordling (
with effluents= us) and  that of the noble one (without effluents) , i.e.
mundane right view (fortunate rebirth) und supermundane right view (end of
rebirth) .
  Satipatthana , as laid down by the 4 foundations of mindfulness (Maha
Satipatthana Sutta), is represented by the 7th link of the  Noble Path  (samma
sati).  The whole Path is penetrated by the  training of sila,  samadhi  and
panna , in a sequence of 3,4,5 - 6,7,8  , 1,2  serving as condition .
This training ,so often mentioned in the canon, is " things-to-do "

KH:As I see it, mundane right understanding can be pariyatti (theoretical) or
patipatti (direct).

D: yes, theory and practise .

KH:suparmundane right-understanding, however, is pativeda (complete,
penetrating, right-understanding) which can take either a conditioned dhamma or
nibbana as its object. Pativeda results in the end of rebirth


D: yes, without effluence it will be perfected ..

----------------
> D: "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results
in cquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed.
There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next
orld. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there
are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim
his world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in
acquisitions."
-----------------

KH: The objects of satipatthana listed in that quote are conditioned dhammas.
Admittedly they have been given conventional names, but each of them is a
reality that exists *in the conditioned world.*


D: the mundane right understanding, concerning  the conditioned , uses
conventional language , Ken.


-------------------
> D: "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a
factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of
discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of
right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is
free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right
view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."
-------------------

KH: Here the sutta is talking about pativeda - complete, penetrating insight -
which experiences an unconditioned reality.

---------------------------

D: it may concern the conditioned (analysis of qualities) and experience of the
unconditioned (nibbana)


<. . .>
> D: here we meet the knack of misunderstandings:in consideration of above
mentioned definition you start.with the supermundane
right understanding.. however without agreement to/acceptance of the basics of
the former.
And there are quite a number of things-to-do on basic level.
---------------------------------------------

KH: I think this pinpoints the difference in our understandings.
When you say there are things-to-do at the mundane level you seem to be
attributing a degree of reality to concepts.

D: there are two realities : seen from the mundane level -the truth of our daily
life- e.g. mother and father - is not a concept.
Taking the angle from the supermundane , it is  .. a stream of conditioned
phenomena we are more or less conscious of .
But this angle is indeed theory/concept for us as long as the supermundane
hasn't been realized ,which is  the truth or reality  of the Noble Ones.


KH:You seem to be saying that the concept of control over realities, and the
concept of a controlling self, actually have a degree of validity.
But in the Buddha's teaching they have no validity at all. Do they?

D: the Buddha taught both conventional and higher truth (  as stated by above
sutta quotation) each  valid within the respective domain.
You are  of course responsible for the course of action at the  mundane level 
though behind the' you ' stands  a conditioned process :
  the Law of Dependent Origination.  The 'control' of this process is conditioned
by  the level of avijja , the less of it the more panna.
Ignorance conditions volitions/kamma formation -conditions consciousness (citta)
-conditions rupa - nama (cetasika) etc.
And as we know  from Abh. the citta -cetasika relation describes the state of
consciousness , specifying the ethical  qualities of  kusala, akusala or
universal.

Well , again in details ;-)


with Metta Dieter







#127629	From: han tun <hantun1@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 8:26 am 
Subject: Re:Q [dsg] Vietnam 2	 hantun1 
 	
Dear Nina,

I have noted your very useful comments.
I thank you very much not only for the Paa.li, but also for the contents of your
message.

with metta and respect,
Han

--- On Mon, 11/5/12, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
Dear Sarah and Han (for the Pali!),

N: When considering reality now, it makes such a difference to read Pali
texts from the Anguttara Nikaaya.
--------
N: Here we see that it is important to understand that seeing now,
visible object now essential. That is asammosa, non-forgetfulness. I
think of the student who did not understand that this is the only way
to solve the problems of life, of sorrow, separation, disease, death.
He asked; why understanding seeing...So necessary to understand death
at each moment, momentary death. (Can you tell him, Sarah? And my
warmest regards to all students)
------
N: Seeing the danger of being neglectful and lazy now, wanting to do
something else first instead of understanding whatever appears now.
All these texts are so meaningful when having in mind that the
reality now has to be understood.
-------
Nina.



#127630	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 8:53 am 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Dieter,

---
<. . .>
>> KH:You seem to be saying that the concept of control over realities, and the
concept of a controlling self, actually have a degree of validity. But in the
Buddha's teaching they have no validity at all. Do they?

> D: the Buddha taught both conventional and higher truth (  as stated by above
sutta quotation) each  valid within the respective domain.
---

KH: That's a very good point on which to start a Dhamma discussion: What is the
difference between conventional reality and higher (absolute) reality, and were
they both taught in the suttas?

My answer is that absolute realities exist absolutely, whereas conventional
realities are mere concepts (thoughts).  Thoughts, by definition, cannot have
inherent properties. They possess neither existence nor non-existence. 
Realities, on the other hand, do have inherent properties.

So, is it possible that the suttas taught conventional truths as well as
absolute truths? To my mind it is impossible.

I am not saying there is no difference between *telling* a conventional truth
and telling a conventional untruth. I admit there is a difference between
saying, for example, "the Buddha was born in Lumbini," and, "the Buddha was born
in Benares."

The difference, however, is in the intention (cetana) at the time. (There can be
an intention to decieve, or there can be an intention not to decieve.) Unlike
"Buddha" and "Lumbini" cetana really does exist.

Ken H


#127631	From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro <dhammasaro@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 3:04 am 
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 dhammasaro 
 	
Good friends all,

Dieter & Nina, sincere warm thanks...  will try to contact...

On food/petrol, may be the same as my Thai-American friends in Long Island, New
York...  but, some neighbors do need food...

I am unable to send petrol...  [bummers]

Please meditate/pray the expected Wednesday's North'easter will not occur...

After some plus-30 years living near Atlantic City, NJ (in the NJ ARNG) a
North'easter really can be as bad as a hurricane!!!  FWIW, some 20-plus years
ago the eye of hurricane come over my NJ home...  no damage... [smiles]

Plus, some seven years in/near Miami, Florida - several hurricanes...  all minor
damage...

peace...

yours in the Dhamma-vinaya

chuck
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: moellerdieter@...

I   assume  what  Howard needs is  petrol..no real problem of (cooked)  food.


<...>


#127632	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 12:12 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Degrees of panna?	 philofillet 
 	
Hi Nina

> > In a Poland talk I heard someone say "sharp panna" and he was
> > laughed at, but isn't it true that an advanced degree of panna is
> > penetrative, seeing into realities?
> ------
> N: We can also say: keen pa~n ~naa. That is what he meant, the word
> does not matter. So long as one understands the characteristic.

   Actually, he didn't. Perhaps you heard the talk. He had "the practice disease"
and talked as a meditator. He would "see moha" for example, watch it come and
go. No understanding. So the panna that must be there for the beginning of
understanding is at least intellectual understanding. But you always say "not in
the book," but if "not in the book", how do we avoid the trap of people who
think that when they sit on a cushion and "watch the mind" it is development of
kusala?  For us too, when we consider the Dhamma, there must be thinking with
attachment to results. So is a first stage of panna, for example, the basic
understanding that desiring to catch cittas is akusala and can never lead to
anything worthwhile except more entrapment in self? This is what I say when I
mean "it clicks" that the way people hunger in their "practice" is wrong, all
wrong. But I don't know the characteristic of this panna that clicks. It seems
to me that if any characteristic is experienced at such times, it will be the
characteristic of all that greed (lobha) that seeks results rather than the
characteristic of the panna.

   As for the characteristic of keen panna, that is not relevant to me, because
it is not arising now.

    Anyways, trying to ask a lot of questions about characteristics of subtle
cittas, no matter what they are, is perhaps not very helpful. What is arising
now? Visible object, seeing, lobha, dosa. (Stressed out about something at
work.) THose are the characteristics that can be studied now. The characteristic
of the panna that may or may not understand them is not appearing now. Or now.
Or now. Or now. So be it!

    But I have bookmarked your following kind explanation of the degrees of
panna, I'm sure there are others who benefited as well, thanks.

   Thanks again Nina.

   Phil


> > Ph: Can you write a little about degrees of panna? Do the degrees
> > of panna correspond go the stages of insight?
> -------
> N: There are many ways of classifying pa~n~naa and it has many
> degrees.


#127633	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2012 11:58 pm 
Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 1.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

Chapter 8

The Buddha’s Excellent Qualities

We visited the sacred places of Sri Lanka in order to recollect the
excellent qualities of the Buddha and of the arahats. When we were in
Anurådhapura we often walked around in the area of the “Mahå-vihåra”,
the Great Monastery, where in olden times many arahats had been
dwelling. We paid respect at the different stupas and old monuments
and in that area we had under the trees Dhamma discussions with the
group of foreign monks we were traveling with. We thought of the
arahats who had lived in that place; they had developed satipatthåna
until all lobha, dosa and moha were eradicated.

Do we understand what it means to be without clinging to the self? Do
we understand what the qualities of alobha, non-attachment, adosa,
non-aversion or kindness, and amoha or paññå really are? The
development of satipatthåna will condition such qualities, it will
lead to the eradication of all unwholesomeness. The Buddha himself
was endowed with wisdom and virtue of the  highest degree. When we
pay respect to the Buddha we recite the words: “vijjå carana-
sampanno”, endowed with wisdom and virtue. Do we know the meaning of
these words? Why do we show reverence in front of a Buddha statue, at
the places where his relics have been enshrined or at the Bodhi tree?
We pay respect to all his excellent qualities: to his wisdom, his
compassion and his purity. If we do not recollect his excellent
qualities while showing reverence, our action is not very beneficial.

If one hardly knows whether the citta at this moment is kusala citta
or akusala citta can one truly appreciate the Buddha’s excellent
qualities? During this journey we came to have a little more
understanding of the many moments of akusala citta which arise and we
saw how deeply rooted our selfishness is. We noticed how rare the
moments are of genuine generosity without selfish motives and how
rare true consideration for other people is. When we begin to
understand the difference between kusala and akusala, not in a
theoretical way, but in daily life, we appreciate more the value of
right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Right understanding of visible
object or of seeing which occurs now, of all realities that appear
now, leads to the end of defilements. The Buddha taught the
development of right understanding for fortyfive years, out of
compassion, he taught for our welfare and happiness. The words we use
to honour the Buddha: vijjå-carana-sampanno, can become more
meaningful when we begin to understand what these qualities are.

------

Nina.






#127634	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 12:57 am 
Subject: Vietnam 3	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

Discussions in the morning and afternoon with little 'extra discussions'
throughout the day. A full room of keen participants at both sessions with lots
of controversial topics and different understandings inc. Mahayana-like
understandings about pure consciousness and the like.

Back to seeing and visible object, the two kinds of realities - those that can
experience an object and those that cannot experience anything. No names used,
no mention of Buddha or Abhidhamma, we were just talking about the kinds of
realities which can be known now.

My friend from the other day - "Seeing, so what?" When there's no understanding,
it's "so what?". More understanding, less idea of self - elements arising and
falling away by conditions. Understanding leads to less attachment. Depends
whether there is just living with understanding or ignorance.

Discussions on attachment, wrong view and conceit, life and what is born, snails
and silence and science....all kinds of thoughts, but only the thinking is real
- conditioned to arise and fall away. One citta after another one from the first
citta of life, patisandhi citta. 

**** lovely buffet lunch..... especially enjoyed the Vietnamese spring rolls and
salads....:-))

Really lively discussions today - continuing in the afternoon. So many
interested dhamma friends here...

Fear and worry....why fear? Seeing, hearing, dhammas arising and falling away by
conditions at each moment. If anyone tries hard to change it, bound to lead to
distress. Any dhamma can be understood as no self. Fear doesn't stay at all. It
falls away like all other conditioned realities. Fear as fear or fear is you?
Fear falls away, but "I" is a problem, taking everything for me or "I" or mine. 

Qu about being aware of the reality that has in fact fallen away, such as the
visible object which fell away at the end of the eye-door process. We hear the
only realities are cittas, cetasikas and rupas and now we find out about
nimitta. Seems like another reality.

What experiences visible object now? What is left is vinnana nimitta because of
the succession of the arising and falling away of dhammas. Visible object - just
that which is seen, a reality. Otherwise, it's just thinking about whether it's
past or present and we get lost in the story, rather than understanding the
reality. Can thinking be the same as the direct understanding when it arises and
falls away? If it does not fall away, there can never be the next moment as the
present. Thoughts about concepts and reality. When it's not the time for the
direct understanding, there's just thinking about concepts.

Qu about struggling to maintain awareness. "I" all the time, thinking. What
motivates "I" to struggle all the time? Attachment, conceit and wrong view.

A baby has no idea about shapes and forms, but when it grows up, those shapes
and forms are taken for some thing all the time. 

Sanna and sati - Is there sanna now? Is there sati now? Otherwise, just talking
about concepts about them.

Always back to this moment. 

What we were concerned about, what was said to us.....all gone. Seeing now,
thinking now, hardness.....like, dislike.... all gone immediately.

The best in life - just develop understanding and share with others.

Metta

Sarah

p.s Thx for your feedback, Nina. You'll meet a few of our Vietnamese friends in
Thailand in Jan. We're all finding Hanoi to be delightful - especially with all
the keen dhamma interest. Day outing tomorrow.
=====



#127635	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 2:42 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vietnam 3	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Sarah,
Thank you for the report, very valuable.
Op 6-nov-2012, om 14:57 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

> Always back to this moment.
>
> What we were concerned about, what was said to us.....all gone.
> Seeing now, thinking now, hardness.....like, dislike.... all gone
> immediately.
>
> The best in life - just develop understanding and share with others.
------
N: This was helpful for me. There was a miscommunication with the
assistant of the dentist who thought Lodewijk was still alive,
although I had told them. She was wondering about help for him on the
steep staircase. Such things upset me very much, but here I read: all
gone. But it is hard to apply when one only intellectually
understands that realities fall away immediately.
Nina.





 	
AdChoices

#127636	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 3:06 am 
Subject: David's Book : Buddha' Lists #121 - #132	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members,

David's Book : Buddha' Lists #121 - #132
[By Dr.David N. Snyder]

List no. 121
Three abilities:
1. The ability to come to know, what one did not yet know
2. The ability to gradually attain the highest and final wisdom
3. The ability of one to dwell in the highest and final wisdom
(from Samyutta Nikaya 48)

List no. 122
Three types of unskillful thinking:
1. Thinking of sense pleasures
2. Thinking of ill will
3. Thinking of harm
(from Iti. 87)

List no. 123
Three types of skillful thinking:
(Same as above, reversed)

List no. 124
Three trainings:
1. The training in heightened virtue (morality)
2. The training in heightened mind (tranquility, jhana)
3. The training in heightened discernment (understanding, wisdom)
(from Anguttara Nikaya 3.88, 3.89)

List no. 125
Three qualities of a monk worthy of gifts and offerings:
1. A monk who is virtuous
2. A monk who keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental
qualities and
taking on skillful mental qualities, is steadfast, solid in his effort, not
shirking his duties with
regard to skillful mental qualities
3. A monk with wisdom who understands the Four Noble Truths
(from Iti. 59)

List no. 126
Three things a wise person does (in regard to forgiveness):
1. He sees a fault as it is.
2. On seeing it, he tries to correct it.
3. When another acknowledges a fault he forgives it as he should.
(from Anguttara Nikaya 3.2)

List no. 127
Three essential qualities in one who teaches Dhamma:
1. The teacher is able to penetrate the letter and spirit of the teachings
2. The one hears is able to do so too
3. Both teacher and listener are able to do both of these
(from Majjhima Nikaya 137, Digha Nikaya 12)

List no. 128
Three ways a Dhamma talk is wholesome:
(Same as above)

List no. 129
Three types of enlightened ones:
1. Samma-sam-buddha = One who rediscovers the teachings and teaches the masses
as the
historical Buddha did (Siddhattha Gotama).
2. Paccekabuddha = A silent buddha. One who attains full enlightenment, but does
not teach
others.
3. Arahant = Fully enlightened person, who might teach others, but not as the
one who
rediscovered the teachings, just as one who learned it from a current
dispensation.

List no. 130
Three searches:
1. The search for pleasure
2. The search for becoming
3. The search for the noble life
(from Samyutta Nikaya 45)

List no. 131
Three types of persons similar to sick people:
1. One will cure and free himself, even without meeting the Buddha-Dhamma.
2. One will never be cured, even if taught this Dhamma by the Buddha himself.
3. One will be cured and freed, if and only if, taught and learn the
Buddha-Dhamma.
(from Anguttara Nikaya 3.22)

List no. 132
Mara`s three offspring:
(When the Buddha-to-be was meditating under the Bodhi Tree just before
enlightenment, he
received three temptations from the daughters of Mara.)
1. Lobha (Greed)
2. Dosa (Hatred)
3. Moha (Delusion)
(from Samyutta Nikaya 1 Mara-samyutta)
(Note that the names are mental states, suggesting that some of the realms in
the 31 planes of
existence may just be mental states, rather than physical places.)

--------to be continued---------------
yawares


#127637	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 4:04 am 
Subject: Fw: Thank You!	 moellerdieter 
 	
----- Original Message -----
From: Upasaka
To: moellerdieter@...
Cc: upasaka@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 6:01 PM
Subject: Fwd: Thank You!












Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Noteâ„¢, an AT&T LTE smartphone



-------- Original message --------
Subject:Thank You!
From:Upasaka <upasaka@...>
To:dhammastudygroup@...
Cc:upasaka@...





Hi, all -


     I've not been able to do more than glance at some posts, but I wish to thank
you for your writing and your generosity of spirit! You are wonderful friends.
     The evening before last the monster tree was finally taken off the house.
Our property is covered with enormous logs and piles of foliage. Our roof will
need to be replaced, and our attic, badly damaged, will require major
construction work. Our front an back lawns will need to be completely
re-lanscaped.
      Last night we regained electric power after 7 days of outage. ("Let there
be light!"), LOL!! There is still no internet access except via my mobile phone,
and my home phones (cable-based) is still unusable. Also, we cannot watch TV,
because cable power is still not restored in our nbd. One very good thing with
the re turn of electric power is that I no longer need to go out to search for
blocks-long gas lines to get fuel for our generator.
      There are still 200,000 customers without electric power, and many more in
NYC and other states in the northeast of the U.S.. (Where we are, the high
temperature each day is now in the low forties, and it got down to 32 degrees
last night.) Please keep them all in your thoughts. Starting tomorrow we are
expecting a nor Easter with up to 55 MPH maximum wind gusts and heavy rain!
(Evidentally climate change is very much a reality!!)


With much metta,
Howard








Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Noteâ„¢, an AT&T LTE smartphone



#127639	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 6:19 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Fw: Thank You!	 nilovg 
 	
Hi Howard,
so good to hear from you via Dieter.
Op 6-nov-2012, om 18:04 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

> Howard: Last night we regained electric power after 7 days of
> outage. ("Let there be light!"),
---
N: Jehi oor, wajehi oor, yes, that I remember. I am glad. I heard
about the storm coming, I hope it will not be so bad.
----
Best wishes,
Nina.





#127640	From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro <dhammasaro@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 7:16 am 
Subject: RE: [dsg] Fw: Thank You!	 dhammasaro 
 	
Yes, thanks for the phone number...  I spoke with Howard; he had enough food... 
great, as I could not send anything to his home yet...

peace...

Chuck

To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: vangorko@...
<...>


#127641	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 11:25 am 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 3	 philofillet 
 	
Hi Sarah

   Thanks for the report.

> Back to seeing and visible object, the two kinds of realities - those that can
experience an object and those that cannot experience anything. No names used,
no mention of Buddha or Abhidhamma, we were just talking about the kinds of
realities which can be known now.
>
> My friend from the other day - "Seeing, so what?" When there's no
understanding, it's "so what?". More understanding, less idea of self - elements
arising and falling away by conditions. Understanding leads to less attachment.
Depends whether there is just living with understanding or ignorance.
>

   It could be that people's understanding of seeing is a good indication of
whether there is any real understanding of Dhamma.
   People who think that seeing is a "so what" issue, or think that they can
control what they see -  something has to "click" with them. Usually it doesn't,
though you and others make noble efforts to get it across. Something has to
click due to conditions, and persuasive posts, persuasive talk, can only add to
that sea of conditions....

   Phil


#127642	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2012 6:56 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 egberdina 
 	
Hi KenH,

On 4 November 2012 07:47, Ken H <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Dieter,
>
> Welcome back, even if only as a lurker. :-)
>
> -----
> <. . .>
> > D: Actually I have still a bit of bad conscience ,not answering to last
> postings
>
> ( in particular Sarah may forgive me ) because I wanted to avoid the
> repetition
> of arguments in a discussion from a " 2 camps " perspective , going on
> since quite some time, .
> ------
>
> KH: I am sure I have been one of the main offenders there. But doesn't the
> same sort of thing happen in other forums too?
>
> At a boat builders' forum, for example, what would happen if one member
> thought there should be a giant hole in the hull? Would other members agree
> to disagree, and continue to discuss finer points with that member (deck
> design and sail preferences)? Or would they refrain from all other topics
> until the matter of the hull had been cleared up?
>
> That's the way I feel about Dhamma discussions. Until the basic
> right-understanding has been agreed upon I don't want to hear a word about
> finer points.
>
> I am not suggesting the basic understanding is easy. Most people will
> never understand in their present lifetime that the Dhamma is a way of
> understanding the present reality, not a list of things-to-do.
>
> It's not easy, but that's what we're here for. :-)
>
>
You have not responded to my question about the relevance of understanding
what "present" might mean.

No dramas, I'm coping very well with that.

Another question, which you are also free to not respond to would be:

Does one item constitute a list?

I would ask that in relation to the following synonyms, all the same single
item - cessation, attaining-the-as-yet-unattained, understanding.

Mmm?





> Ken H
>
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




#127643	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 12:42 am 
Subject: The Debate : Separate Conditions	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members.

Today is Uposatha Day, I went out walking meditation at 5:07AM under the half
moonlight and twinkling stars. I felt the cold wind touch my face and I was so
happy/peaceful again.

***************

The Debate Of King Milinda
[Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala]

#15. "Is it possible to separate these conditions; saying,
`This is contact, this feeling, this perception, this intention,
this consciousness, this initial application, and this
sustained application'?"

"No, great king, this cannot be done. If one were to
prepare a soup containing curds, salt, ginger, cumin seeds
and pepper, one could not take out the flavour of the curds
and show it saying, `This is the flavour of the curds' or take
out the flavour of the salt and say, `This is the flavour of the
salt', yet each flavour would be distinctly present by its
characteristic sign."

----------

#16. Then the elder said, "Is salt, O king, recognisable by
the eye?"

"Yes, your reverence, it is."

"Be careful, O king, what you say."

"Then it is recognisable by the tongue."

"Yes, that is right."

"But, Nàgasena, is it only by the tongue that every
kind of salt is recognisable?"

"Yes, every kind."

"Then why do bullocks bring whole cartloads of it?"

"It is impossible to bring salt by itself. For example,
salt also has mass but it is impossible to weigh salt, one can
only weigh the mass."

"You are dexterous, Nàgasena, in argument."

------------
yawares


#127644	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:13 am 
Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 2.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

Besides the sacred places in Anurådhapura we also visited other
memorable places outside this city. We went to Mahintale, the place
where the arahat Mahinda, who had come from India, met the Singhalese
King Devanampiya Tissa (250 B.C.) and preached to him the “Lesser
Discourse on the Elephant’s Footprint” (Middle Length Sayings I, no
27). The King presented Mahinda with the Royal Park in Anurådhapura
and this place became the Mahå-vihåra, the center of Buddhism in Sri
Lanka. Buddhaghosa, the autor of the “Visuddhimagga” and the compiler
of most of the commentaries to the Tipitaka, resided in the Mahå-
vihåra. We visited the Thuparama, the oldest stupa in Sri Lanka,
where the relic of the Buddha’s right collarbone had been enshrined.
Near the Thuparama is the cremation place of bhikkhuní Sangamitta,
Mahinda’s sister, who brought a sapling of the Bodhi-tree to Sri
Lanka. After her arrival the order of bhikkhunís was founded in Sri
Lanka. We payed respect at the Ruvanvelisaya, the great stupa which
was constructed during the reign of King Dutthagåmaní (150 B.C.),
where relics of the Buddha had been enshrined. While we walked around
the stupa we discussed satipatthåna. When the rain poured down in the
afternoon we sat in a small temple near the stupa for Dhamma
discussions. We payed respect at the Bodhi-tree several times and we
noticed that the new sprout we saw two years ago was still growing
bigger. To us this was a sign that the teachings are still being
preserved in Sri Lanka.

One morning the group of foreign monks was going for a long walk from
the Abbhayagiri Vihåra to the Thuparama. Jonothan, the Australian
layman who looked after the monks during this journey and who had
organised the walk, two Thai friends and I came along as well. The
Abbhayagiri, our starting point, was built about 89 B.C. This
monastery dissented from the monks of the Mahåvihåra. Since in all
old stupas relics have been enshrined we payed respect there, by
walking around the stupa three times while reciting the Påli words
which express honour to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. From
the Abbhayagiri we walked to a famous old Buddha statue, the Samådhi
statue, and from there we went to the “Twin Pond” of Abbhayagiri
which had been built for the use of the monks. We then proceeded to
“Naka Vihåra”, now an old ruin, where once a fingernail relic of the
Buddha had been enshrined. After that we followed the monks along the
fields and we saw on our left side in the midst of marshy grounds the
“Pathama Cetiya”, the first place where the arahat Mahinda had stayed
after his arrival in Mahintale. We ended our walk in Thuparama.

******

Nina.






#127645	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:33 am 
Subject: Eradicate akusala, develop kusala, purify the mind.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Han and all,

I listened to a Thai recording taken on makapuccha and I thought of
you, citing: eradicate akusala, develop kusala and purify the mind.
You find these three principles very important, and they are.
Kh Sujin elaborated on this and I found it very helpful.
<These are the teachings of each Buddha: eradicate akusala, develop
each kind of kusala and purify citta.
We listen to the Dhamma in order to eradicate ignorance and all
akusala, and to develop each kind of kusala. Some people lack certain
kinds of kusala and akusala cannot be eradicated if one is not
steadfast in the development of more kusala. Some people ask why the
ten perfections are necessary. They have to be developed in order to
clearly understand realities. We do not realize the extent of akusala
and we do not realize when it arises. When there is seeing we do not
know what appears through the eyesense and then akusala arises
already. There is accumulation of not knowing realities and this is
pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural decisive support-condition, for the
arising of ignorance. After seeing, hearing, etc. akusala increases
all the time, evermore, evermore. The Dhamma is taught so that
akusala can be eradicated, kusala can be developed and citta can be
purified.
At times we forget. When we listen to the Dhamma we wish to know this
or that, and is there at that moment lobha, or the eradication of
lobha? >
--------
N: I find it helpful to see that the three principles go together.
When seeing is being investigated it is already the purification of
citta, bhaavanaa. This is also the case when developing the paramis,
perfections: the perfections are developed in order to have less
akusala, to realize the four noble Truths.
------
Nina.


#127646	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 5:03 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi KenH,

you wrote:

' .>
>> KH:You seem to be saying that the concept of control over realities, and the
concept of a controlling self, actually have a degree of validity. But in the
Buddha's teaching they have no validity at all. Do they?

> D: the Buddha taught both conventional and higher truth ( as stated by above
sutta quotation) each valid within the respective domain.
---

KH: That's a very good point on which to start a Dhamma discussion: What is the
difference between conventional reality and higher (absolute) reality, and were
they both taught in the suttas?

D: of course , you will easily find both in the Sutta Pitaka  , whereas the
Abhidhamma Pittaka concentrates  on higher reality.



KH:My answer is that absolute realities exist absolutely, whereas conventional
realities are mere concepts (thoughts). Thoughts, by definition, cannot have
inherent properties. They possess neither existence nor non-existence.
Realities, on the other hand, do have inherent properties.

D: you speak about the khandhas (and nibbana) , the conditioned and the
unconditioned
Please show where we find such statement of 'inherent properties' in the
Tipitaka .


KenH:So, is it possible that the suttas taught conventional truths as well as
absolute truths? To my mind it is impossible.

D: don't you think that is depending on the occasion and the audience ..of
course householders and noble disciples were differently addressed.
Take the time , Ken and study a bit the suttas ,  e.g. from Anguttara Nikaya
..most suttas are easy to read /understand .  You may change your mind,.




KH:I am not saying there is no difference between *telling* a conventional truth
and telling a conventional untruth. I admit there is a difference between
saying, for example, "the Buddha was born in Lumbini," and, "the Buddha was born
in Benares."
The difference, however, is in the intention (cetana) at the time. (There can be
an intention to decieve, or there can be an intention not to decieve.) Unlike
"Buddha" and "Lumbini" cetana really does exist.

D: Cetana is a decisive factor ( e.g. sankhara and sankhara khanda in D.O. ) 
but both are conditioned  as the realities of citta , cetasika and rupa are.
You seem to mix the reality of conventional truth (the so-called person) with
its background  higher truth (the process of interdependent  conditioned
phenomena.
That is similar to the claim only quantum mechanics are indeed existing ,which
is  nicely  countered by :
  'it is right that the atom is fundamental, but the ant is more significant'

with Metta Dieter..




#127647	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 7:08 am 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Herman,

-----
> H: You have not responded to my question about the relevance of understanding
what "present" might mean.
-----

KH: Sorry, my only excuse was that your question contained a typo: "Would it be
fair to say that therefore an understanding of what "present" is pivotal?"

I couldn't see how "present" could be a hard word to understand, so I thought
you must have meant something else.

-----
> H: No dramas, I'm coping very well with that.
-----

KH: Of course you are. My only concern is with your choice of coping mechanisms.
:-)

-----------
> H: Another question, which you are also free to not respond to would be:
> Does one item constitute a list?
> I would ask that in relation to the following synonyms, all the same single
item - cessation, attaining-the-as-yet-unattained, understanding.
> Mmm?
------------

KH: Do you see what I mean? You created a rod for your own back when you told us
about DMT (or whatever the name was). Now every time you say something ambiguous
I think, "O-oh, Herman's back on the coping mechanisms!"

I honestly don't know which "list" you are referring to. And I can't see how
those three things could by synonyms.

Ken H


#127648	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 8:26 am 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Dieter,

-----
>> KH: What is the difference between conventional reality and higher (absolute)
reality? and were they both taught in the suttas?

> D: of course , you will easily find both in the Sutta Pitaka , whereas the
Abhidhamma Pittaka concentrates  on higher reality.
-----

KH: It is good to know where we disagree. I maintain that the Buddha's teaching
is *all* about absolute reality.

I am prepared to accept that I could be wrong about that to some extent. Even
some of DSG's staunchest Abhidhammaists tell me that the Buddha gave
conventional advice on some rare occasions. But that's too hard for me to
understand at this early stage in my studies. For the time being I am keeping to
the maxim, "The Buddha taught satipatthana <right understanding of absolute
reality> and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of
satipatthana." (K Sujin)

----------
<. . .>
> D: Please show where we find such statement of 'inherent properties' in the
Tipitaka .
----------

KH: Where do we *not* find them? The way I see it, the entire Tipitaka is about
realities (paramattha dhammas, things that have inherent characteristics) and
*not at all* about things that do not have inherent characteristics.

--------------
>> KH: So, is it possible that the suttas taught conventional truths as well as
absolute truths? To my mind it is impossible.

> D: don't you think that is depending on the occasion and the audience ..of
course householders and noble disciples were differently addressed.
Take the time , Ken and study a bit the suttas ,  e.g. from Anguttara Nikaya
..most suttas are easy to read /understand .  You may change your mind,.
---------------

KH: As I said, that is a difficult point for me to understand, but why should we
be concerned about a few isolated instances in which the Buddha spoke to people
who were *not* capable of understanding his teaching?

We should be interested in what the Buddha said to people who *were* capable of
understanding. That's what we're here for!

-------------------------
<. . .>
> D: That is similar to the claim only quantum mechanics are indeed existing
,which is  nicely  countered by :
   'it is right that the atom is fundamental, but the ant is more significant'
-------------------------

KH: There is no doubt that living beings are of paramount importance to
uninstructed worldlings. The Dhamma, however, uses the terms "ant" "person"
"living beings" etc., only by way of conventional designation. They are used to
designate the five khandhas (paramattha dhammas). Every word of the Dhamma is to
be understood in terms of paramattha dhammas - things that really do exist.


As I said Dieter, it is good to know where we disagree on these important
matters.

Ken H


#127649	From: han tun <hantun1@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 8:40 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Eradicate akusala, develop kusala, purify the mind.	 hantun1 
 	
Dear Nina,

Thank you very much.
It is very useful for me.
I really appreciate it.

with metta and respect,
Han

--- On Wed, 11/7/12, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
Dear Han and all,

I listened to a Thai recording taken on makapuccha and I thought of
you, citing: eradicate akusala, develop kusala and purify the mind.
You find these three principles very important, and they are.

Kh Sujin elaborated on this and I found it very helpful.
<These are the teachings of each Buddha: eradicate akusala, develop
each kind of kusala and purify citta.
We listen to the Dhamma in order to eradicate ignorance and all
akusala, and to develop each kind of kusala. Some people lack certain
kinds of kusala and akusala cannot be eradicated if one is not
steadfast in the development of more kusala. Some people ask why the
ten perfections are necessary. They have to be developed in order to
clearly understand realities. We do not realize the extent of akusala
and we do not realize when it arises. When there is seeing we do not
know what appears through the eyesense and then akusala arises
already. There is accumulation of not knowing realities and this is
pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural decisive support-condition, for the
arising of ignorance. After seeing, hearing, etc. akusala increases
all the time, evermore, evermore. The Dhamma is taught so that
akusala can be eradicated, kusala can be developed and citta can be
purified.
At times we forget. When we listen to the Dhamma we wish to know this
or that, and is there at that moment lobha, or the eradication of
lobha? >
--------
N: I find it helpful to see that the three principles go together.
When seeing is being investigated it is already the purification of
citta, bhaavanaa. This is also the case when developing the paramis,
perfections: the perfections are developed in order to have less
akusala, to realize the four noble Truths.
------
Nina.


#127650	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 10:50 am 
Subject: Defilements and deeds	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Nina

     In Abhidhamma in Daily Life (p.26) I read " medium defilement is, for
example, attachment to what one sees or hears or experiences through the
body-sense, or aversion towards the objects one experiences. Medium defilement
does not condition ill deeds. Gross defilement conditions ill deeds."

      It seems to me all the lobha and does that is accumulated does eventually
condition ill deeds.  But not directly, not at that moment? Is that the meaning?

      Thanks.

  Phil


#127651	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 12:12 pm 
Subject: Re: MN 2 Sabbaasava Sutta: All the Taints (5)	 epsteinrob 
 	
Hi Nina.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is
> nippariyaaya (literal).The last one is in the ultimate sense only.
> There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan,
> this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na.
> We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this
> lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death,
> kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death
> as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present
> (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body.
> it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be
> object of insight.

Thanks for these interesting notes.

I wonder if there is more we can know about the serial nature of an element that
exists in the moment, but has its effect through continued impingement?

> As to samaya, we read:  <any period among those such as one minute,
> morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
> is called 'present'.>
>
> Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different
> from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
> function.

And so those are figurative in the precise sense, not really literally
actual...?

Best,
Rob E.

- - - - - - - - -


#127652	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:52 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 1	 epsteinrob 
 	
Hi Sarah.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
wrote:

...Some have listened to A.Sujin on the audio we've uploaded, but for many, it's
the first time they've heard about understanding realities at this moments. Many
have been on meditation retreats in Burma and elsewhere, they've listened to
monks and teachers talking about "practice" as something separate from dhamma or
Abhidhamma study and understanding.

...

> There was a really long, detailed qu about breath and someone's practice of
awareness of breath. A.Sujin asked: "What is the purpose of meditation?" She
talked about avijja not understanding reality at this moment. 
>
> I think that for many people who have followed a meditation practice for a
long time, to hear about ignorance at this moment, wrong practice and the
importance of understanding seeing now, is all rather shocking. We're so used to
the idea of a self following steps, DOING something...... not easy at all. Some
people really appreciated it, but certainly not everyone!

Thanks for the detailed description. Of course I would enjoy hearing the whole
detailed breathing question and the answer if there is more detail.  I wonder if
this session will ever be available as a tape?

I think the idea of understanding in the moment and practice that does not force
or direct anything to happen, is useful even for someone like myself who thinks
that meditation is a valid part of the path.  If one is going to practice, it is
good to understand that you cannot possibly be responsible for any results and
that anything that happens in any "practice" is anatta.  A simple test can
determine if you are attached either to the practice or to the fruits of the
practice.  Just take away all 'credit' from yourself and see if the practice
still seems appealing.  I think that A. Sujin has a good point that we generally
try to "own" the whole process of whatever we are doing, whether it is everyday
activity or something path-related.  Good to hear about the discussion along
these lines.

Best,
Rob E.

- - - - - - - - - - -


#127653	From: "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 5:33 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 1	 rjkjp1 
 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sarah.
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@>
wrote:
>
> ...Some have listened to A.Sujin on the audio we've uploaded, but for many,
it's the first time they've heard about understanding realities at this moments.
Many have been on meditation retreats in Burma and elsewhere, they've listened
to monks and teachers talking about "practice" as something separate from dhamma
or Abhidhamma study and understanding.
>
> ...
>
> > There was a really long, detailed qu about breath and someone's practice of
awareness of breath. A.Sujin asked: "What is the purpose of meditation?" She
talked about avijja not understanding reality at this moment. 
> >
> > I think that for many people who have followed a meditation practice for a
long time, to hear about ignorance at this moment, wrong practice and the
importance of understanding seeing now, is all rather shocking. We're so used to
the idea of a self following steps, DOING something...... not easy at all. Some
people really appreciated it, but certainly not everyone!
>
> Thanks for the detailed description. Of course I would enjoy hearing the whole
detailed breathing question and the answer if there is more detail.  I wonder if
this session will ever be available as a tape?
>
> I think the idea of understanding in the moment and practice that does not
force or direct anything to happen, is useful even for someone like myself who
thinks that meditation is a valid part of the path.  If one is going to
practice, it is good to understand that you cannot possibly be responsible for
any results and that anything that happens in any "practice" is anatta.  A
simple test can determine if you are attached either to the practice or to the
fruits of the practice.  Just take away all 'credit' from yourself and see if
the practice still seems appealing.  I think that A. Sujin has a good point that
we generally try to "own" the whole process of whatever we are doing, whether it
is everyday activity or something path-related.  Good to hear about the
discussion along these lines.
>
> Best,
> Rob E.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
Dear Rob
better face up Rob,  you're a convert.
I think it all began with your long discussions with Sukin and another few years
and your meditation cushion will be collecting mould down in the basement.:)
Robe


#127654	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 6:14 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: With the passing of time	 egberdina 
 	
Hi Sarah,

On 30 October 2012 15:54, sarah <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Herman,
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> > > >H: What, if any, is the difference between nimitta and thinking?
> > > ...
> > > S: Thinking refers to namas, those realities which experience an idea
> or
> > > concept. Nimitta can never experience anything. It refers to the sign
> of
> > > reality or a concept which is experienced.
> > > ....
> > >
> >
> >H: Thanks for that.
>
> >
> > What is the difference between (visible) object and nimitta - is nimitta
> a
> > necessary idea to prop up a theory, or are nimitta and object
> > experientially differentiable in some way?
> ....
> S: Each conditioned dhamma has a nimitta, a 'sign'. Nibbana is the only
> signless reality. Through the mind-door, it is always the sign of the
> conditioned reality which is experienced, the sign that is left behind
> after the reality itself has fallen away.
>
> For example, visible object is seen in the eye-door process. In the
> following mind-door process, it's characteristic of sign can be directly
> known. For all intents and purposes it is the same visible object that is
> known, a perfect replica or photocopy.
>
> If it's confusing or leads to doubts, just forget it.
> ...
>
>

Good advice.



>
> > > Even now, it can be proved that it's impossible to see without an
> object
> > > seen, impossible to hear without an object heard, impossible to think
> > > without an idea thought about.
> > > ...
>
> > Sure, as long as we are talking about daily life stuff.
> ...
> S: What can be known now is present "daily life stuff".
> ....
>
>
I don't agree here, with great confidence :-)

Outside of samadhi there is no hope in Hades of being anything but deluded
about what is now .

SN 35.99
PTS: S iv
80<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/SN_IV_utf8.html#pts.080>

CDB ii 1181
Samadhi Sutta: Concentration

"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they
actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present?

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'...
'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact
is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact,
experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain,
that too is inconstant.'

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'...
'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is
inconstant"...

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is
inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is
inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in
dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain,
or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'

"So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as
they actually are present."







> >
> > But imagine the following:
> >
> > "Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the
> > dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the
> dimension
> > of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness
> based
> > on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure,
> > finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration
> of
> > awareness. (MN121)
> >
> >
> > Why construe an object where there isn't any?
> ...
> S: Which is the objectless citta?
>
> First the passage above is referring to objects of arupa jhanas. The
> "dimension of nothingnss" is a concept and the following one is the citta
> which experienced this.
>
> Following this, "the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of
> awareness". According to B.Bodhi's note in his translation, this is
> animitta cetsosamaadhi and the commentary makes it clear this is referrring
> to "the concentration of the mind in insight; it is called 'signless',
> because it is devoid of the signs of permanence,etc'.
>
> The animitta object is nibbana.
>
> I'll be interested to read of any more examples you have in mind.
>


Thanks for running your preferred theory by me :-)

>
> ...
>
> > > > I imagine this means the Buddha is saying that your sources are put
> to
> > > > grief :-)
> > > ...
> > > S: Ha, ha! Check my sources and you'll see which ones come to grief :-)
> > > ...
>
> > I guess as long as we are checking sources, what the world is empty of
> will
> > remain very unnoticed :-)
> ...
> S: What the six worlds are empty of is self.
>
>
Yes.

And permanence, and satisfaction ( so why are we all so happy most of the
time ? :-).



> Metta
>
> Sarah
> ====
>

--
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




#127655	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 6:34 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Can Dhamma ever be taught?	 egberdina 
 	
Hi RobE,

On 4 November 2012 12:26, Robert E <epsteinrob@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Herman.
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> > > c/ this shows that cessation of clinging is not dependent on complete
> > > cessation;
> > >
> >
> > OK. But in the absence of clinging there is nibbana, and in the absence
> of
> > nibbana there is samsara/clinging. Arahant-status is not like a job title
> > that still applies even when you are on holidays :-)
>
> Well this may get into nomenclatural hair-splitting, but I think someone
> capable of experiencing nibbana at any time is still an arahant even while
> on Holiday. Whether you consider an arahant someone who is currently in
> nibbana, or someone who has the capacity as a 'power,' he will not lose his
> wisdom or general detachment by taking on the basic 'clinging' necessary to
> do this or that activity. Just my view, and perhaps wrong, but when the
> Buddha was giving his talks, I wouldn't say that doing so somehow brought
> him down to the level of an ordinary person, or anything like one.
>
>
Would there be anything in the here and now to differentiate between an
arahant and a schmuck in nibbana?


> So, sure, there's a distinction, but I think one of the arahant's great
> capabilities is to be able to experience something close to equanimity and
> detachment even in course of daily life.
>
>
Yes, I would agree with a paraphrase that there are very skilful beings.
IMO, the arahant label is useless, the moment you apply it the very idea of
arahant is contradicted.




>
> > > d/ an arahant who is capable of such a state is also capable of doing
> life
> > > activities without the arising of clinging.
> > >
> >
> > Nah, sorry, not possible :-)
>
> Well let's put it this way - there's 'clinging', and then there's
> clinging. The amount of clinging necessary to do activities for an arahant,
> in my incredibly ignorant opinion, does not disturb his psychospiritual
> equilibrium.
>
>
I also am incredibly ignorant, far more so than you, and proud of it :-),
and from that dumb perspective the concept of activities that are not
goal-oriented are unthinkable. The arahant does not construe a self, there
is no goal-oriented behaviour, the word "activities" does not apply, at
worst only stuff is happening, and at best nothing ........ FMIDP (from my
incredibly dumb perspective :-))



> >
> > From Yawares' recent posts from Milindapanha:
> > "Time means past, present, and future. There are some for whom time
> exists
> > and some for whom it doesn't. Where there are beings who will be reborn,
> > for them time exists; where there are beings who will not be reborn, for
> > them time does not exist."
> >
> > Daily life is temporal, that IS what rebirth is. Only nibbana is
> timeless.
>
> I don't take an absolutist view towards anything. Pragmatically speaking,
> the arahant is on his way, won't be deterred, and a detour to do necessary
> things or help other beings, does not interfere with his knowing who and
> what he is, and where he is going. It's not an impediment in my view,
> though it's not as still as parinibbana.
>
> The Buddha was not in a disturbed state during his years on the road.
>
>
If he set out to be on the road, then he certainly was disturbed, just like
you and me.


>
> Best,
> Rob E.
>
> - - - - - - - - - -
>

--
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




#127656	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 8:37 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death.	 egberdina 
 	
Hi RobE,

On 4 November 2012 12:31, Robert E <epsteinrob@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Herman.
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> > > But it wouldn't be unfair to say that ignorance in Buddhism is also a
> lack
> > > of skill. But then we'd have to talk about what skill means in that
> context.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I would say, in the broadest possible terms. that skill in the Buddhist
> > context is knowing how to not suffer.
>
> I think that's skipping to the conclusion. I would say echoing those terms
> that skill is knowing how to follow the path to end suffering. It's
> gradual. No one knows how to not suffer until they get to the end, and you
> can't skip steps.
>
>

Being the proud ignoramus that I am, freedom from suffering is only ever
temporary / temporal. And that can't be any other way, can it?




> Best,
> Rob E.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>


--
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




#127657	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:46 am 
Subject: The Questions: 5 Ayatanas/why People Are Different??	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members.

These questions/answers are so amazing!

The Questions Of King Milinda
[Translated ted by T.W.Rhys Davids]

#1. [65] The king said: 'Are the five Âyatanas, Nâgasena, (eye, ear, nose,
tongue, and body,) produced by various actions, or by one action?' (that is, the
result of various Karmas, or of one Karma.)

'By various actions, not by one.'

'Give me an illustration.'

'Now, what do you think, O king? If I were to sow in one field five kinds of
seed, would the produce of those various seeds be of different kinds?'

'Yes, certainly.'

'Well, just so with respect to the production of Âyatanas.'

'Very good, Nâgasena 2!'

-------------

#2. The king said: 'Why is it, Nâgasena, that all men are not alike, but some
are short-lived and some long-lived, some sickly and some healthy, some ugly and
some beautiful, some without influence and some of great power, some poor and
some wealthy, some low born and some high born, some stupid and somewise?'

The Elder replied: 'Why is it that all vegetables are not alike, but some sour,
and some salt, and some pungent, and some acid, and some astringent, and some
sweet?'

'I fancy, Sir, it is because they come from different kinds of seeds.'

'And just so, great king, are the differences you have mentioned among men to be
explained. For it has been said by the Blessed One: "Beings, O brahmin, have
each their own Karma, are inheritors of Karma, belong to the tribe of their
Karma, are relatives by Karma, have each their Karma as their protecting
overlord. It is Karma that divides them up into low and high and the like
divisions 1."'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'

----------
yawares/sirikanya


#127658	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 1:11 am 
Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 4.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

In the “Lakkhanasutta” (Dígha Nikåya, Dialogues of the Buddha III,
no. 30) it is explained that the Buddha, during his lives as a
Bodhisatta, accumulated manifold virtues and that these conditioned
the special bodily features that are the characteristics of a Buddha.
We read about his immeasurable generosity, his perfect síla and his
boundless loving kindness and compassion towards all living beings.
He had no selfish purposes in mind, he always thought of the welfare
of others. After all our discussions about selfishness the impact of
this sutta that points out the Buddha’s utmost selflessness is much
greater and it can serve as a reminder to us to be less self-seeking.
I shall quote parts of this sutta without going into the details of
the bodily characteristics conditioned by his excellent qualities
which are mentioned after each section of this sutta:

“... Whereas in whatsoever former birth, former state of becoming,
former sojourning, monks, the Tathågata, then being human, took on
mighty enterprise in all good things, took on unfaltering enterprise
in seemly course of deed and word and thought:--- in dispensing
gifts, in virtuous undertakings, in keeping of festivals, in filial
duties to mother and father, in pious duties to recluse and brahmin,
in honour of the head of the house and in other such things of lofty
merit.... (145)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth, former state of becoming,
former sojourning, monks, the Tathågata, then being human, lived for
the weal of the great multitudes, dispeller of dread and of panic,
purveyor of just protection and wardenship and giver of supplies.....
(148)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human, putting away the taking of life, refrained therefrom and
laying the scourge and sword aside, dwelt gentle and compassionate,
merciful and friendly to all living creatures.... (149)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human, became popular to the people by the four bases of popularity,
to wit, by giving, by kindly speech, by sagacious conduct and by
impartiality... (152)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human, became one who spoke to the multitude on their good, on
righteousness, explaining to the multitude, became a bearer of
welfare and happiness to living creatures, a celebrant of
righteousness... (154)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human, drew near and questioned recluse or brahmin, saying: What,
sir, is good? What is bad? What is right, what is wrong? What ought I
to do, or not to do? What when I have done it will long be for my
unhappiness... or for my happiness?... (157)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human, lived without wrath, full of serenity, and even when much had
been said, feel not foul of anyone, was neither angry, nor malign,
nor enraged, manifesting neither anger nor hate nor melancholy, but
was a giver of fine and soft coverlets, and cloaks, and fine linen,
fine cotton, fine silken, fine woollen stuffs.... (159)"

---------

Nina.






#127659	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 1:35 am 
Subject: Update on Our Situation	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Hi, all -

      As you know, we regained electric power Monday night, but last
evening we lost it again during the nor'easter. We couldn't use our
generator during the heavy snowfall and heavy winds - so we spent a
cold night. This morning I was able to start using the generator, and
so we have heat and hot water. After our driveway is cleared of snow,
I'll take the car out of the garage to go wait for a couple hours on a
long gas line. Right  now the car is only one quarter filled with gas.
Then later today I'll be going out to stand in the cold to get more gas
for our generator. (I have no idea when the electricity will be
restored!)

With metta,
Howard


#127660	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 1:40 am 
Subject: Eradicate akusala, develop kusala, purify the mind.(II)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Han and all,

Kh S: <Some poeple do not know akusala as akusala and they do not
know what the characteristic of mettaa is. What is akusala must be
eradicated, what is kusala must be developed. They are non-self,
dhamma is dhamma. Citta must be purified: it is not self. The value
of listening is understanding what one hears, even one word. We
listen in order to understand dhamma of this moment. Dhamma is now.
We hear the word aayatana, and understanding aayatana is that which
appears now.>
(N: the inner aayatanas are the senses and the mind, including all
cittas. The outer aayatanas are the sense objects and dhammaayatana
includes subtle ruupas, cetasikas and nibbaana.)
Kh Sujin then explained that listening and understanding what one
hears is bhaavana, mental development. This is actually the
purification of citta.
Kh S: <It is not self who listens, sankhaarakkhandha (N: all
cetasikas including all sobhana cetasikas such as sati and pa~n~naa,
except feeling and sa~n~naa) accumulates. Not self listens and
develops understanding, this is the task of sankhaarakkhandha. One is
inclined to bhaavanaa, understanding Dhamma. One abstains from
akusala. When one is about to die to what extent is one steadfast in
kusala? One can be steadfast in kusala through body, speech and mind
and steadfast in abstaining from akusala through body, speech and
mind so long as one is still alive.
One can be steadfast in developing understanding, right view, by
listening and studying, being firm to really understand, not changing
into something else (N: having another goal). Some people study
Dhamma with the idea of self, they think of "I" who will understand
Dhamma.>
------
N: This is very common, so long as one is not a sotaapanna the wrong
view of self is not eradicated. Realizing that one is clinging to a
self is already a step into the right direction. Before hearing the
Dhamma we did not even know that we were clinging to a self. Now we
are inclined to develop more understanding of realities as not self,
but it is an extremely slow process, since we accumulated ignorance
and wrong view for aeons.
------
Nina.


#127661	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 1:48 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Defilements and deeds	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Phil,
Op 8-nov-2012, om 0:50 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

> Medium defilement does not condition ill deeds. Gross defilement
> conditions ill deeds."
>
> It seems to me all the lobha and does that is accumulated does
> eventually condition ill deeds. But not directly, not at that
> moment? Is that the meaning?
-------
N: Medium lobha arises when one likes something but one does not
really try with all means to obtain it. It arises time and again. It
is different from lobha that is really harmful, such as the lobha
that motivates stealing.
Lobha arises and then falls away, but it is accumulated as a latent
tendency. It is important to understand that there are three levels
of defilements.
-----
Nina.



#127662	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 1:51 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Update on Our Situation	 nilovg 
 	
Hi Howard,
glad to hear from you. You are having a difficult time now.
Experiencing cold through the bodysense.
Azita would say: patience, courage and good cheer. Perhaps neighbours
are helping each other.
Nina.

Op 8-nov-2012, om 15:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> As you know, we regained electric power Monday night, but last
> evening we lost it again during the nor'easter.





#127663	From: "Buddhatrue" <buddhatrue@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 2:04 am 
Subject: Re: Update on Our Situation	 buddhatrue 
 	
Hi Howard,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
>
> Hi, all -
>
>      As you know, we regained electric power Monday night, but last
> evening we lost it again during the nor'easter. We couldn't use our
> generator during the heavy snowfall and heavy winds - so we spent a
> cold night. This morning I was able to start using the generator, and
> so we have heat and hot water. After our driveway is cleared of snow,
> I'll take the car out of the garage to go wait for a couple hours on a
> long gas line. Right  now the car is only one quarter filled with gas.
> Then later today I'll be going out to stand in the cold to get more gas
> for our generator. (I have no idea when the electricity will be
> restored!)
>

I hope you get your electricity back on soon! The situation there is just
terrible and the media isn't really reporting it....just talking about how Obama
won. If I were you, I would gather up all of the Obama re-election posters and
burn them for heat. :-)

Metta,
James


#127664	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 3:20 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Update on Our Situation	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi Howard,

  nature   can be really  mean, can't it?  .. sorry to learn that  you  (and
Rita)  are hit again.
What happened regarding the promised petrol supply by the army? Any organized
self- help within the comminity?

I cross my fingers that you don't have to care for power much longer ..and  
time to think about what to do with the roof , the hospital , etc.
(as if not one of them would be already enough..  ;-(   )

Well, Howard, you surely are not to be envied now,  but I believe  your regular
meditations secure an  encounter with the situation without getting upset  and
who knows , change to a nicer perspective may show up any time.

with Metta Dieter




,


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: upasaka@...
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 3:35 PM
   Subject: [dsg] Update on Our Situation



   Hi, all -

   As you know, we regained electric power Monday night, but last
   evening we lost it again during the nor'easter. We couldn't use our
   generator during the heavy snowfall and heavy winds - so we spent a
   cold night. This morning I was able to start using the generator, and
   so we have heat and hot water. After our driveway is cleared of snow,
   I'll take the car out of the garage to go wait for a couple hours on a
   long gas line. Right now the car is only one quarter filled with gas.
   Then later today I'll be going out to stand in the cold to get more gas
   for our generator. (I have no idea when the electricity will be
   restored!)

   With metta,
   Howard







#127665	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 4:15 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi KenH,

you wrote:

'KH: It is good to know where we disagree. I maintain that the Buddha's teaching
is *all* about absolute reality.

D: well, Ken ..the Buddha said "all what I am teaching is suffering, its
origination , its end  and the  way to end suffering".
I don't think that we disagree about that.

KH:I am prepared to accept that I could be wrong about that to some extent. Even
some of DSG's staunchest Abhidhammaists tell me that the Buddha gave
conventional advice on some rare occasions.

D: please see for yourself (Suttas) that there is a multitude of occasions ..
and of course there must be : one does not start with the higher without
knowledge of the basic teaching)
Remember,  the Buddha is said to teach Abhidhamma to his most advanced disciple
, Ven Sariputta.


KH:But that's too hard for me to understand at this early stage in my studies.
For the time being I am keeping to the maxim, "The Buddha taught satipatthana
<right understanding of absolute reality> and every word of his teaching should
be understood in terms of satipatthana." (K Sujin)

D: I assume by that  she addresses/d her advanced  students.
Finally , and I believe here you will agree with me too, we are on our own  to
perfect the 8fold NoblePath,  which is all what  the Buddha Dhamma guides us to
do.  Any Dhamma teacher can assist only so far that we are able ' to walk on our
own feet'

KH: As I said, that is a difficult point for me to understand, but why should we
be concerned about a few isolated instances in which the Buddha spoke to people
who were *not* capable of understanding his teaching?
We should be interested in what the Buddha said to people who *were* capable of
understanding. That's what we're here for!

D: it is repeatedly stated that the Dhamma is a gradual teaching  .. the Buddha
could see respectively tested the understanding of people by questions.  It is
quite difficult  to sort that out oneself without knowing of the lower or higher
levels  (i.e. by sutta study).
With that I do not mean that you or others here are not 'capable '

(D: That is similar to the claim only quantum mechanics are indeed existing
,which is nicely countered by :
'it is right that the atom is fundamental, but the ant is more significant')
-------------------------

KH: There is no doubt that living beings are of paramount importance to
uninstructed worldlings. The Dhamma, however, uses the terms "ant" "person"
"living beings" etc., only by way of conventional designation. They are used to
designate the five khandhas (paramattha dhammas). Every word of the Dhamma is to
be understood in terms of paramattha dhammas - things that really do exist.

D: that is not meant by this statement.   It means : agreed,  fundamentally
there is the world of atoms (and energy).. but  for our daily life
the living being is more  significant. It is the living being which needs to
survive and get along its social environment .
The background of the 5 Khandhas respectively their embedment within the Law of
Dependent Origination becomes significant only after the former is secured.

KH: As I said Dieter, it is good to know where we disagree on these important
matters.

D: above no exception from anicca ;-.)


with Metta Dieter


,





#127666	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 6:17 am 
Subject: Poland, 13, pm. d, a short saying.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,
Q: An anaagamii died of  abroken heart because she was not eating.
Kh S: <Anyone will die sooner or later, so, the best thing, while one
is still alive is developing understanding. Otherwise: more avijjaa,
ignorance, and all akusala.>
------
Nina.


 	
AdChoices

#127667	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 6:36 am 
Subject: a short sayings (continuation) 2.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,
There was a discussion about the taking of intoxicants.

Kh S: <Being born as a human being is an opportunity to develop
understanding, since we do not know what the next life would be. We
do not even know about tomorrow and if we have no understanding of
reality we shall have more and more ignorance, which is very
difficult to eradicate. Not being careless, not underestimating any
akusala is the best thing in one's life.
We could compare the amount of avijjaa and akusala before we had
Dhamma discussion with the time after the discussion.
As to the taking of intoxicants, it depends on understanding, it is
not I or you or anyone.>
----------
What is misery, dukkha? It is the changing, the impermanence.
Everything passes away all the time, it just appears and disappears.
One cannot hold it, though one would like to have it. Impossible,
because everything just passes all the time.
------
Nina.


#127668	From: han tun <hantun1@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 8:41 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Eradicate akusala, develop kusala, purify the mind.(II)	 hantun1 
 	
Dear Nina,

Once again, thank you very much for your very valuable Notes.
I have filed it in my Note Book.
I will study them carefully.

with metta and respect,
Han

--- On Thu, 11/8/12, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
Dear Han and all,

Kh S: <Some poeple do not know akusala as akusala and they do not
know what the characteristic of mettaa is. What is akusala must be
eradicated, what is kusala must be developed. They are non-self,
dhamma is dhamma. Citta must be purified: it is not self. The value
of listening is understanding what one hears, even one word. We
listen in order to understand dhamma of this moment. Dhamma is now.
We hear the word aayatana, and understanding aayatana is that which
appears now.>
(N: the inner aayatanas are the senses and the mind, including all
cittas. The outer aayatanas are the sense objects and dhammaayatana
includes subtle ruupas, cetasikas and nibbaana.)
Kh Sujin then explained that listening and understanding what one
hears is bhaavana, mental development. This is actually the
purification of citta.
Kh S: <It is not self who listens, sankhaarakkhandha (N: all
cetasikas including all sobhana cetasikas such as sati and pa~n~naa,
except feeling and sa~n~naa) accumulates. Not self listens and
develops understanding, this is the task of sankhaarakkhandha. One is
inclined to bhaavanaa, understanding Dhamma. One abstains from
akusala. When one is about to die to what extent is one steadfast in
kusala? One can be steadfast in kusala through body, speech and mind
and steadfast in abstaining from akusala through body, speech and
mind so long as one is still alive.
One can be steadfast in developing understanding, right view, by
listening and studying, being firm to really understand, not changing
into something else (N: having another goal). Some people study
Dhamma with the idea of self, they think of "I" who will understand
Dhamma.>
------
N: This is very common, so long as one is not a sotaapanna the wrong
view of self is not eradicated. Realizing that one is clinging to a
self is already a step into the right direction. Before hearing the
Dhamma we did not even know that we were clinging to a self. Now we
are inclined to develop more understanding of realities as not self,
but it is an extremely slow process, since we accumulated ignorance
and wrong view for aeons.
------
Nina.


#127669	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 2:58 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 1	 epsteinrob 
 	
Hi Rob K.  :-)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

> Dear Rob
> better face up Rob,  you're a convert.
> I think it all began with your long discussions with Sukin and another few
years and your meditation cushion will be collecting mould down in the
basement.:)

I'm already a terrible meditator these days anyway, and was only consistent for
periods in the past.  However, my experience of meditation, without really
trying, is usually pretty profound when I get around to doing it, and I'm sure
that's not just a coincidence.

As for being a convert, if I graduate to understanding that every moment is a
moment of meditation - just a question of the natural development of awareness -
the cushion won't be necessary in any case, so maybe you are right.  On the
other hand, I think that those who don't take advantage of Buddha's enormous
meditation technology which he developed in detail are also deprived of a core
contribution of his time on earth.

Best,
Rob E.

- - - - - - - - - -


#127670	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 3:15 pm 
Subject: Re: Update on Our Situation	 epsteinrob 
 	
Hi Howard.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
>
> Hi, all -
>
>      As you know, we regained electric power Monday night, but last
> evening we lost it again during the nor'easter. We couldn't use our
> generator during the heavy snowfall and heavy winds - so we spent a
> cold night. This morning I was able to start using the generator, and
> so we have heat and hot water. After our driveway is cleared of snow,
> I'll take the car out of the garage to go wait for a couple hours on a
> long gas line. Right  now the car is only one quarter filled with gas.
> Then later today I'll be going out to stand in the cold to get more gas
> for our generator. (I have no idea when the electricity will be
> restored!)

Yikes! Sorry for these prolonged difficulties.  At least you can use your
generator!  I will keep you in my thoughts and hope things get better soon!

Best,
Rob E.

- - - - - - - - - - -


#127671	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 3:46 pm 
Subject: Re: Update on Our Situation	 epsteinrob 
 	
Hi...James...if it's really you...

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" <buddhatrue@...> wrote:

> I hope you get your electricity back on soon! The situation there is just
terrible and the media isn't really reporting it....

Uh, yeah - actually the media has reported on the situation in NY in great
detail, including airing the stories and complaints of people affected by the
storm(s) in many different areas.  Maybe you just don't watch enough tv.  :-)

> just talking about how Obama won.

I guess they should totally ignore the conclusion of one of the most contentious
elections in history, with great policy implications, including the funding of
FEMA for this and future storms...?

> If I were you, I would gather up all of the Obama re-election posters and burn
them for heat. :-)

Gee, I guess you don't like Obama.  At least you're not too mean about it.  :-(
[I heard that Obama actually *created* the storms using his devilish Magical
Powers that his father transmitted to him in Kenya, in order to distract from
all the conspiracies he's involved in!  It's probably true, because I just said
it!]

Best,
Rob E.

- - - - - - - - - - - -


#127672	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 6:39 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Dieter,

-----
> D: well, Ken ..the Buddha said "all what I am teaching is suffering, its
origination , its end and the way to end suffering".
I don't think that we disagree about that.
-----

KH: At least we can agree on the wording. :-).  The original purpose of our
current conversation was to define how the no-control camp at DSG differed in
its interpretation of the Dhamma from almost all other Buddhists. It was a
difference that you found a bit off-putting and caused you to lurk here more
than post.

So let's take the meaning of "suffering" as a case in point. In the first sermon
ever given by the Buddha –the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta – suffering was
defined as the five khandhas.

However, that same sutta also described suffering in conventional terminology.
And that's where popular Buddhism departs from this other [DSG] form. The great
majority of Buddhists think that concepts of disease, old age, death, not
getting what one wants (etc) are literally dukkha. A tiny minority believes only
the five khandhas are dukkha.

------------
> D: please see for yourself (Suttas) that there is a multitude of occasions ..
------------

KH: I suspect you are suggesting that every conventionally worded sutta is
evidence of a conventional teaching (a list of things to do) given by the
Buddha. Here at DSG the opposite point of view has been explained over and over 
again.  But no one listens. :-)

For the record: all conventional terminology found in the Tipitaka is to be
understood in terms of ultimate reality (uncontrollable conditioned namas and
rupas).

-----------------
> D: and of course there must be : one does not start with the higher without
knowledge of the basic teaching)
-----------------

KH: Yes one does! There is only one Dhamma. Knowledge  of the Dhamma (panna) is
the same at the beginning of the path as it is at the end. The difference is one
of degree only.

----------------------------
> D: Remember, the Buddha is said to teach Abhidhamma to his most advanced
disciple, Ven Sariputta.
----------------------------

KH: Let me repeat: it's all the same teaching. The idea that Abhidhamma could be
only for an elite few is totally wrong.  Every word of the Dhamma is Abhidhamma.

---------
> D: Finally , and I believe here you will agree with me too, we are on our own 
to perfect the 8fold NoblePath,  which is all what  the Buddha Dhamma guides us
to do.  Any Dhamma teacher can assist only so far that we are able ' to walk on
our own feet'
----------

KH: The 8fold path can't be made to arise for another or even for one's self.
Just like the present reality, the path arises purely by conditions, over which
there is no control.

-------------------
<. . .>
D: that is not meant by this statement.   It means : agreed,  fundamentally
there is the world of atoms (and energy).. but  for our daily life
the living being is more  significant. It is the living being which needs to
survive and get along its social environment .
The background of the 5 Khandhas respectively their embedment within the Law of
Dependent Origination becomes significant only after the former is secured.
---------------------

KH: Let's change that statement to, "Agreed, fundamentally there is the world of
conditioned nama and rupa, but for our daily life the living being is more
significant . . . ." I think that sums up the attitude of most modern-day
Buddhists. The minority version (thankfully found here at DSG) says the exact
opposite. Nina has even written books about it: e.g., Abhidhamma in Daily Life.

Ken H


#127673	From: "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 6:52 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 1	 rjkjp1 
 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
Hi again Rob
I was likely as  devoted a meditator than you. When I first met Khun Sujin in
1991 I was staying at a big meditation center south of bangkok. I spent about a
week in Bangkok visiting Khun Sujin most days and was very convinced by what she
said: it was obvious that elements are arising and ceasing whether one is
sitting, standing, talking , walking etc. Trying to see this: like the med
centers, in subtle ways, indoctrinate us to do,  clearly was counterproductive
in that it brings in a deep idea of controlling sati.

Nevertheless I went back to the center , to my  confortable, isolated kuti, and
for another two weeks did my best to try to 'see' elements. Finally I gave up,
couldn't do it anymore. Couldn't see how normal daily life was any different
from a center- except for the extra pushing- mostly with tanha, although they
would claim it is viriya- that the center supplies..
Robert
> Hi Rob K.  :-)
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@> wrote:
>
> > Dear Rob
> > >
> I'm already a terrible meditator these days anyway, and was only consistent
for periods in the past.  However, my experience of meditation, without really
trying, is usually pretty profound when I get around to doing it, and I'm sure
that's not just a coincidence.
>
> As for being a convert, if I graduate to understanding that every moment is a
moment of meditation - just a question of the natural development of awareness -
the cushion won't be necessary in any case, so maybe you are right.  On the
other hand, I think that those who don't take advantage of Buddha's enormous
meditation technology which he developed in detail are also deprived of a core
contribution of his time on earth.
>
> Best,
> Rob E.
>
> - - - - - - - - - -
>


#127674	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 6:54 pm 
Subject: Vietnam 4 trip to the Perfume Pagoda	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

Tam asked me this morning what happened to Vietnam 4 and the answer was that I
was just too tired to  write at the end of the last two full days.....

On Wednesday, we set off early for the Perfume Pagoda - a two hour bus ride,
followed by a one hour slow-boat ride amongst the limestone mountains before
climbing to the temple where we had lunch, followed by a discussion. Some of our
Vietnamese friends who accompanied us were also asking questions on the bus and
I had a lovely dhamma discussion with one new friend, Lan, for the return boat
journey too - all about present realities and understanding vs practice.

Does practice lead to understanding or does understanding leading to more
understanding?

What is the Patthana? We need to consider and understand one condition at a
time. For example, arammana paccaya (object condition) - is visible object seen
now? Visible object is arammana paccaya for seeing.

Qus about the conditions for sati - non-forgetfulness and understanding. Is
there sati now?  The proof of sati is when there is understanding of reality!

As we sipped green tea in a lovely, cool room in the temple, one friend
suggested it was easier for sati and understanding to arise when studying or
meditating rather than when working because there is so much forgetfulness at
such a time. Is there reality whilst at work? Is there seeing, thinking?

What is the experience of silence, stillness or nothingness? Ignorance!

We had a discussion about the monk's life vs lay life. What is the motive for
leading the monk's life? Does one really have the accumulations? One must be
very truthful - the one who really sees the danger in lay life through speech
and deeds and has enough virtues to lead the life of the monk, studying the
teachings from morning til night. There must be good sila and the understanding
that sila is not-self. Lay people can also develop understanding up the level of
becoming an arahat - the understanding is the same. The monk has kilesa
(defilements), but understands his accumulations to develop understanding in the
monk's life. The lay person doesn't have such accumulations, but develops
understanding. Akusala is only a moment that has arisen and gone immediately -
there is dhamma at each moment, dhamma as non-self for right understanding and
for hearing about and considering more deeply.

Several friends have mentioned "knowing" stillness, nothingness (again!) and "I
know seeing" - not understanding!

Ajahn asks: What did you get from meditation?

Answers: Some experience and understanding. A better sleep! 
Meditation themes in many of our discussions as most the Vietnamese friends
attending the discussions have spent time with meditation teachers at temples
and been on retreats in Thailand, Myanmar and elsewhere. Ajahn Sujin always
brings the discussions back to seeing and visible object to check whether these
are really understood now or whether there's still an idea of atta, self that
experiences or some thing which is experienced. Some people listen and then go
to a meditation centre because they don't understand that reality cannot be made
to arise.

She asks: What did you do there?

Answer: I was aware of seeing and so on.

Ajahn: "You are aware" - not understanding.
Many people use the word 'awareness' without understanding the characteristic of
sati at all. They may mention "aware of sitting" or "posture". What is
experienced now?

Why go to the meditation centre? Just wishing and thinking about 'getting it'
somewhere, no understanding what is conditioned already. This can be the
hindrance to not understanding reality now - thinking it should be this or that
object.

The yogi is the one who develops right understanding - nothing to do with being
a meditator!
****

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127675	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 7:21 pm 
Subject: Vietnam 5 - Special practices - for what?	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

Yesterday (Thursday), we had morning and late afternoon discussions in the
lovely old Chinese-style hotel where most of our discussions have been held.
After a delicious Vietnamese vegetarian lunch, we also went on a trip out of
Hanoi to visit another old temple. When we got there, however, we ended up
having an informal discussion rather than climbing the stairs to the temple!
Lots of keen interest at the main discussions and we're so impressed by the good
questions our Vietnamese friends have. They're not afraid to argue, disagree,
give spirited responses in defence of their views and yet still listen
attentively to the very new ideas for most of them.

One of the friends, Ninh has many comments about "knowing", "nothingness" and
"awareness of everything". He started talking about dukkha. Dukkha as the ariya
sacca refers to whatever is conditioned, the arising and falling away of
realities.  His friend, Vinh (Mr "So What?") asked about the problems in life
and having more calm. There are problems as long as there is ignorance and
attachment. That which arises and falls away is dukkha - ignorance of reality
and clinging to it is "problem". The opposite of "the world' which appears
through the various doorways, one at a time, is "lokuttara", supramundane
reality.

Discussions about nimitta. The fire-stick is just a flicker of light, but it
keeps on as it's waved around until there is the idea of a circle - the
magician's trick. In the same way, visible objects are thought about until
there's the idea of a picture, people and things. There is nimitta now but we
think in terms of 'what is nimitta?' because it's not known. Without nimitta, no
one knows what appears. The ideas come from the shapes and forms from what has
arisen and fallen away. Usually there is ignorance, avijja now after seeing and
hearing, but this (pointing to the picture) or that (pointing to the bottle) is
nimitta. There are 6 doors, so 6 types of nimitta - shadows of realities. What
appears now is visible object and nimitta. Nimitta because of the succession of
visible objects seen - countless experiences which condition ideas of shape and
form, leading to the ideas of someone and some thing. 

How long does the understanding take to develop? There have been aeons and aeons
of ignorance. Understanding is the only way to develop calm, peace and
confidence. Only when there is the understanding of the arising and falling away
of realities can understanding know what is meant by dukkha. Only then can the
idea of "pleasant" realities be seen as an illusion. 

The Buddha taught for 45 yrs to condition the understanding that comes closer
and closer to the reality now.

A new student, Chan, mentioned fearful situations and sudden anger outbursts.
How to deal with these?

Ajahn: How again?

Chan: Is there some technique?

Ajahn: To do! What is the source of the trouble?

Chan: Anger?

Ajahn: No understanding.

There is expecting to have something, it doesn't happen and then there is anger.
Without expectation and clinging, there is no anger. Can you have what you
expect? What is the source of trouble?

On the bus, there was further discussion about meditation practices leading to
sensitivity to other beings, Gods and spirits which have 'special
understanding'. The meditation practice has led to this 'trouble'. Give it up!
****

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127676	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 7:29 pm 
Subject: Vietnam 6 - Anatta!	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

Back to yesterday afternoon's discussion.

A friend, Ninh 2 (I think) mentioned that when he's eating, he thinks of other
things, but when he's doing other things, he thinks of eating!

Why does one one to stop thinking or think of something special?
We don't know what awareness is, it must be understood before it can arise - not
just follow the words "be aware!"

Thai's qu about the paramis (perfections) and whether we should talk about other
paramis apart from understanding. The Bodhisatta had to listen to 24 Buddhas to
develop enough understanding to develop the paramis - must be developed
together. 

Anatta. Realities are anatta, not 'nothing' is anatta! This theme comes up a lot
- (mahayana influences, though we don't use any special word.) Even wrong view
is anatta, trying not to have anger arise is anatta, life is anatta. 

Live until panna arises!

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127677	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 7:49 pm 
Subject: Vietnam 7 Paintings in the mind....	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

This morning Son (Mr "I've heard enough Pali terms") asked good questions about
thinking and memory. Thinking and memory of shape and form so that there's the
idea of flowers. From the outset, there must be the understanding of the
difference between experiencing and that which is experienced. If there is no
citta which experiences, no world appears. The painting is an idea. 

Qus about attention and memory and the difference. If citta is not known, how
can the factors be known? When the object is experienced, attention attends to
that object. The citta and cetasikas arise and fall away together so rapidly,
only the nimitta of them can be known. For example, a feeling cannot be known
directly, only the nimitta of the feeling can be known. 

A.Sujin pointing to the painting - what is there? 4 primary rupas and other
rupas. Only one, visible object, appears. Is the world of sight, the world of
paintings? Actually it is painted by idea and memory. Jut as 4 primaries there
are painted by different colours, so 4 primaries here...... whatever is seen is
like a painting because there must be 4 primaries that have arisen together with
the visible object which is seen. 

Whether one is touching the painting or one's arm, there is just the experience
through the body sense of tangible object, so also with seeing, there is just
the memory of what is there and here too. So the absolute truth is that there
are realities only - no birds in the painting, no one here, no matter what we
take for the painting or people. The visible object is just like the painting in
this sense. 

Citta cannot understand because when it arises, it just experiences the object.
It is the 52 cetasikas which perform particular functions. 

The understanding of the truth leads to detachment from clinging to whatever
appears. Ignorance and clinging covers up the succession of the rising and
falling away of reality. There is always clinging to the idea of something, but
understanding can gradually develop.

Is there citta now?
A.Sujin asks so we don't forget there is no self.

Citta experiences, sanna marks shape and form which is seen.

Mai 2 who came for the first time said it sounds like too  much theory instead
of just experiencing "everything". Is everything a reality? Who sees? Can there
be awareness of "all"? A long discussion with a strong defence! She has
experienced "natural awareness". The function of sati is to be aware of a
reality. Without intellectual right understanding of realities, there cannot be
the development of awareness and right understanding!

Time to leave for the last session in Hanoi.
****

Metta

Sarah
p.s. no time to check....
========



#127678	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:26 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Defilements and deeds	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Nina

> N: Medium lobha arises when one likes something but one does not
> really try with all means to obtain it. It arises time and again. It
> is different from lobha that is really harmful, such as the lobha
> that motivates stealing.

     But doesn't all the liking of objects that arise (medium defilements)
eventually lead to stealing, for example. (gross defilement)? I think this is an
imponderable, only the Buddha could possibly know in what precise way lobha
accumulates and leads eventually to transgression. But yes, good to understand
that there are three levels of lobha - the latent, the arising, and the
transgressional level.

    The other day when jogging I heard that wonderful talk on the dome of lobha,
from India 2004, I think. Lobha is the teacher that leads us on, so hard to find
the "loophole", I think she said, the moment of detachment, the island in the
sea...and if we try to find it, it's just lobha again. As A.Sujin says at the
end of one of those talks "thus the Buddha was inclined not to teach, because
his teaching goes against the way of the world, lobha" or words to that effect.

   PHil


#127679	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:54 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hurricane	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Hi, Sarah (and Robert and all) -

In a message dated 10/30/2012 3:39:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

Dear  Howard, Rob E, and any others on the US East coast,

Do hope you, your  family and friends are all safe and  well.

Metta

Sarah
===============================
     As of last night we regained electric  power, phone service, and
internet access via computer (after regaining electric  power for a day
following
a week of none and then losing it  again!). We hope this lasts this lasts,
but experience shows it to be  tenuous. Thank you and others for your kind
wishes! I am just starting to  scan through the hundreds of emails there are!
     Our property is still *covered* with logs  and tree limbs to be removed
eventually, and we have enormous repair work  awaiting: a new roof and roof
beams, attic reconstruction, minor living-area  room repair, sidewalk
replacement (torn up from the uprooting of the monster  tree), and *total*
re-landscaping of the property. I expect insurance to cover  much of this but
far
from all of it.

With metta,
Howard


Seamless  Interdependence

/A change in anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)





#127680	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:32 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hurricane	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Hi Howard,

We never know what will happen. So glad to hear that you now have electricity,
phone service and internet. Do hope it's not lost again. I'm sure all the
repairs will take a very long time and wish you the best with this and
insurance. So glad that no one was hurt at least.

Thx also to Dieter for keeping us updated.

Metta

Sarah
p.s Tomorrow we travel to Halong Bay where we'll be staying on a junk, so not
expecting internet access.

>________________________________
> From: "upasaka@...upasaka@...>

>As of last night we regained electric  power, phone service, and
>internet access via computer (after regaining electric  power for a day
following
>a week of none and then losing it  again!). We hope this lasts this lasts,
>but experience shows it to be  tenuous. 
<...>


#127681	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:04 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hurricane	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 11/9/2012 7:39:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

Hi  Howard,

We never know what will happen. So glad to hear that you now  have
electricity, phone service and internet. Do hope it's not lost  again.
----------------------------------------
     Thanks!! :-)
----------------------------------------

I'm  sure all the repairs will take a very long time and wish you the best
with  this and insurance. So glad that no one was hurt at least.
-----------------------------------------
     Yes! Again, many thanks - and to others as well!  :-)
-----------------------------------------



Thx also to Dieter for keeping us  updated.
--------------------------------------------
     Indeed! Dieter is a wonderful friend to me  - and to all of us!
---------------------------------------------



Metta

Sarah
p.s Tomorrow we travel to Halong  Bay where we'll be staying on a junk, so
not expecting internet  access.
---------------------------------------------
     Be well!
=============================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless  Interdependence

/A change in anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)






#127682	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:29 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Update on Our Situation	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Now, now, James!  :-(               LOL!

===========================
With metta,
Howard


In a message dated 11/8/2012 10:06:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
buddhatrue@... writes:

I hope  you get your electricity back on soon! The situation there is just
terrible  and the media isn't really reporting it....just talking about how
Obama won.  If I were you, I would gather up all of the Obama re-election
posters and burn  them for heat. :-)





#127683	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:36 am 
Subject: The Questions: Renunciation	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members.

The Questions Of King Milinda
[Translated ted by T.W.Rhys Davids]

#3. The king said: 'You told me, Nâgasena, that your renunciation was to the end
that this sorrow might perish away, and no further sorrow might spring up .'

  'Yes, that is so.'

'But is that renunciation brought about by previous effort, or to be striven
after now, in this present time?'

The Elder replied: 'Effort is now concerned with what still remains to be done,
former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me an illustration 3.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel thirst that you would set to
work to have a well or an artificial lake dug out, with the intention of getting
some water to drink?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be
done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel hungry that you set to work
to have fields ploughed and seed planted and crops reaped with the intention of
getting some food to eat?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be
done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when the battle is set in array against
you that you set to work to have a moat dug, and a rampart put up, and a watch
tower built, and a stronghold formed, and stores of food collected? Is it then
that you would have yourself taught the management of elephants, or
horsemanship, or the use of the chariot and the bow, or the art of fencing?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be
done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do. For it has been thus
said, O king, by the Blessed One:

"Betimes let each wise man work out
That which he sees to be his weal!
Not with the carter's mode of thought, but firm p. 103
Let him, with resolution, step right out.
As a carter who has left the smooth high road,
And turned to byways rough, broods ill at ease 1--
(Like him who hazards all at dice, and fails)--
So the weak mind who still neglects the good,
And follows after evil, grieves at heart,
When fallen into the power of death, as he,
The ruined gamester, in his hour of need 2."

[67] 'Very good, Nâgasena.

-------------
yawares/sirikanya


#127684	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:28 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Update on Our Situation	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Hi, Dieter -

In a message dated 11/8/2012 11:28:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard,

nature can be really mean, can't it? .. sorry to learn that  you (and Rita)
are hit again.
What happened regarding the promised petrol  supply by the army? Any
organized self- help within the  comminity?
--------------------------------------------------------
     I don't know for sure, but I was able to fill my  car's gas tank after
only a 1.5 hour wait on line - so there may well be an  increased supply.
----------------------------------------------------



I cross my fingers that you don't have to care for power  much longer ..and
time to think about what to do with the roof , the hospital  , etc.
(as if not one of them would be already enough.. ;-(  )
-----------------------------------------------------
     Things are looking better! :-)
-------------------------------------------------------



Well, Howard, you surely are not to be envied now, but I  believe your
regular meditations secure an encounter with the situation  without getting
upset and who knows , change to a nicer perspective may show  up any time.
---------------------------------------------------------
     We've been retaining our composure, I'm very happy  to report! :-)
----------------------------------------------------------



with Metta Dieter
============================
With metta and many thanks,
Howard


Seamless  Interdependence

/A change in anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)






#127685	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:31 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Update on Our Situation	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Thanks, Nina! The neighbors are wonderful!!!  :-)

With metta,
Howard


In a message dated 11/8/2012 9:58:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Hi  Howard,
glad to hear from you. You are having a difficult time now.
Experiencing cold through the bodysense.
Azita would say: patience,  courage and good cheer. Perhaps neighbours
are helping each  other.
Nina.





#127686	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:57 am 
Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 5.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

"... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human, reunited long-lost with long-bereaved relatives, friends and
comrades, reunited mother with child and child with mother, father
with child and child with father, brother with brother, brother with
sister and sister with brother, making them as one, causing them to
rejoice.... (161)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human, grew desirous for the good of the many, for their welfare,
their comfort, their safety, considering how they might increase in
confidence, in morality, in education, in charity, in righteousness
and in wisdom, might increase in money and corn, in land, in animals
twofooted and fourfooted, in wife and children, in servants and
slaves, in kinsfolk and friends and connections.... (164)

... Whereas in whatsoever former birth... the Tathågata, then being
human,  put away abusive speech, what he heard here not repeating
elsewhere, to raise a quarrel against people here; and what he heard
elsewhere not repeating here, to raise a quarrel against people
there:-- thus becoming a binder together of those who are divided, or
fostering those who are friends, a peacemaker, lover of concord,
impassioned for peace, a speaker of words that make for
peace....” (171, 172)

This sutta encourages us to develop satipatthåna with a sincere
inclination. All kinds of kusala such as generosity, síla, mettå,
should be developed along with satipatthana. Right understanding of
nåma and rúpa will lead to being less self-seeking and being more
intent on the happiness of others. This was an important lesson we
learnt during this journey. We can now reflect on the Buddha’s
excellent qualities with more respect and with more gratitude. He
accumulated all kinds of virtues and attained Buddhahood out of
compassion for us. Out of compassion he taught us satipatthåna so
that defilements can be eradicated. He taught us satipatthåna for our
welfare and happiness.

Namo tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammå Sambudhassa--

Homage to the Lord, the Perfected One, the Fully Enlightened One.

(the end).

-------

Nina.





*********






#127687	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:05 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vietnam 7 Paintings in the mind....	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Sarah,
many thanks for this series. It must be hard for the audience to
grasp all, they need listening again and again to take it in. You
gave a good over all coverage of the sessions.
Nina.
Op 9-nov-2012, om 9:49 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:
> This morning Son (Mr "I've heard enough Pali terms") asked good
> questions about thinking and memory. Thinking and memory of shape
> and form so that there's the idea of flowers.


#127688	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:22 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Rob E,
Op 9-nov-2012, om 4:58 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:

> As for being a convert, if I graduate to understanding that every
> moment is a moment of meditation - just a question of the natural
> development of awareness - the cushion won't be necessary in any
> case, so maybe you are right. On the other hand, I think that those
> who don't take advantage of Buddha's enormous meditation technology
> which he developed in detail are also deprived of a core
> contribution of his time on earth.
------
N: The main thing is understanding anattaa, that it is not us liking
to sit on a cushion or attaining jhaana. We do everything we have the
natural inclination to, we do that anyway, but it is all conditioned
and no self. The Buddha taught that also jhaanacitta is non-self.
-----
Nina.





#127689	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:29 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 2 Sabbaasava Sutta: All the Taints (5)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Rob E,
Op 8-nov-2012, om 2:12 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:

> Continuity or serial present
> > (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the
> body.
> > it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat
> can be
> > object of insight.
>
> Thanks for these interesting notes.
>
> I wonder if there is more we can know about the serial nature of an
> element that exists in the moment, but has its effect through
> continued impingement?
---------
N: It is important to just understand the characteristic that appears
now. No counting, no thinking of a series. Catching it is not
possible anyway.
-------
>
> R: > As to samaya, we read: <any period among those such as one
> minute,
> > morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
> > is called 'present'.>
> >
> > Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise,
> different
> > from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
> > function.
>
> And so those are figurative in the precise sense, not really
> literally actual...?
------
N: And even what is present in the literal sense we can never catch,
just the nimitta is experienced. We should not mind as to: is it this
one or the following one, so long as we learn that it is just a
dhamma and in this way there will be more detachment from taking it
for self or permanent.
------
Nina.





#127690	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:21 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Vietnam 1	 truth_aerator 
 	
Dear Nina, all,

>N:The main thing is understanding anattaa,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And how does one exactly achieve that? There are many smart and learned people
that know all the correct theory. But what is the practical use of that
memorized theory if they behave *as if* they strongly believe in a Self even
though they can claim otherwise?

I question very hard and rigid approach of anatta and "no-control" to be
thrusted too early before one fulfills other qualities such as sila and samadhi.
It seems like a very convenient excuse to indulge in more self centered
behavior.

To me it appears that to understand anatta, one first needs to develop
generosity, morality, renunciation, loving-kindness, patience, and other similar
virtues. And of course it includes meditation. Only after that does good
intellectual understanding of not-self can be properly applied.

In Jataka tales the ethical aspects are stressed first. Not "read 100 books".

IMHO,

With best wishes,

Alex


#127691	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:20 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi KenH, all,

you wrote:

(D: well, Ken ..the Buddha said "all what I am teaching is suffering, its
origination , its end and the way to end suffering".I don't think that we
disagree about that.)
-----

KH: At least we can agree on the wording. :-). The original purpose of our
current conversation was to define how the no-control camp at DSG differed in
its interpretation of the Dhamma from almost all other Buddhists.


D:  mh..that may be so , ( slowly disagreement starts ;-) ) but I wouldn't call
it the purpose.
Actually I tried to explain my list absence due to some sort of tiredness: so
many mails and so little of what had been agreed upon.

KH: It was a difference that you found a bit off-putting and caused you to lurk
here more than post.

D: Up to now I am interested to specify by clear terms what the differences are
, some kind of agreement of the issue we finally disagree.
This should be not impossible as our  base is the Tipitaka.


KH:So let's take the meaning of "suffering" as a case in point. In the first
sermon ever given by the Buddha -the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta - suffering was
defined as the five khandhas.

D: no, Ken ..'suffering in brief ' is defined by 5 khandha attachment .  That is
quite important ,  because if suffering would be defined by the khandhas only , 
then  life per se would be suffering including the  Arahant and a cessation this
very life time impossible.

  KH:However, that same sutta also described suffering in conventional
terminology. And that's where popular Buddhism departs from this other [DSG]
form. The great majority of Buddhists think that concepts of disease, old age,
death, not getting what one wants (etc) are literally dukkha. A tiny minority
believes only the five khandhas are dukkha.

D:  there we have the mix again, Ken:  There is the conventional, the mundane
truth and the  higher, the supermundane truth.
The latter (5 khandha-attachment) is explained in detail by the Law of Dependent
Origination.
The Buddha proclaimed that without old age, sickness and death  there would be
no teaching ( of :this is suffering.. etc)
I wonder why it is so difficult to understand that there are two levels to
express the truth.  .


------------
> D: please see for yourself (Suttas) that there is a multitude of occasions ..
------------

KH: I suspect you are suggesting that every conventionally worded sutta is
evidence of a conventional teaching (a list of things to do) given by the
Buddha. Here at DSG the opposite point of view has been explained over and over
again. But no one listens. :-)


D: you want me to quote?



KH:For the record: all conventional terminology found in the Tipitaka is to be
understood in terms of ultimate reality (uncontrollable conditioned namas and
rupas).

-----------------
D:  that could be our first point for the file 'agreed to disagree'



> D: and of course there must be : one does not start with the higher without
knowledge of the basic teaching)
-----------------

KH: Yes one does! There is only one Dhamma. Knowledge of the Dhamma (panna) is
the same at the beginning of the path as it is at the end. The difference is one
of degree only.


D:  perhaps we misunderstand eachother, so let us  look for what has been said
in this respect:
Ananda, it is not easy to teach the Dhamma to others. One should consider five
things before teaching Dhamma to others.
What five? One should teach thinking:
1: I will teach the Dhamma gradually starting with the most simple.  
(A.N.3,184)


"Just as the ocean has a gradual deepening sloping off the continental shelf,
with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, exactly in the
same way, is this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinâya) a gradual training, a
gradual development, a gradual progression, with a sudden
penetration to understanding only after a long stretch. 
<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.05.than.html> 5.5





----------------------------
> D: Remember, the Buddha is said to teach Abhidhamma to his most advanced
disciple, Ven Sariputta.
----------------------------

KH: Let me repeat: it's all the same teaching. The idea that Abhidhamma could be
only for an elite few is totally wrong. Every word of the Dhamma is Abhidhamma.

---------
D: It is the same teaching insofar as both belongs to the Buddha Dhamma.    I
did not say it is for an elite , but it is without doubt for those advanced
in the teaching . Otherwise , it makes no sense to me when  Abhidhammists
believe in" Commentators state that the Buddha, as a mark of gratitude to His
mother who was born as a deva in a celestial plane, preached the Abhidhamma to
His mother together with other devas continuously for three months. The
principal topics (matika) of the advanced teaching, such as moral states (kusala
dhamma) and immoral states (akusala dhamma), were then repeated by the Buddha to
Venerable Sariputta Thera, who subsequently elaborated them and later compiled
them into six books"  ( http://buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/whatbudbeliev/67.htm or
plenty of others sources)




> D: Finally , and I believe here you will agree with me too, we are on our own
to perfect the 8fold NoblePath, which is all what the Buddha Dhamma guides us to
do. Any Dhamma teacher can assist only so far that we are able ' to walk on our
own feet'
----------

KH: The 8fold path can't be made to arise for another or even for one's self.
Just like the present reality, the path arises purely by conditions, over which
there is no control.

D: such statement is indeed off putting me:  throughout the canon the student is
requested to apply the path (in particular by the 3fold Noble Path Training of
Sila, Samadhi and Panna) .    I recall  a sutta in which the Buddha talks about
a man who wants to cross the river,. but remains  sitting down , shouting: 
other shore, come over to me!
Of course one needs to take care that the path conditions are possible to arise 
.  One, as stated in another sutta , needs to construct  the raft
and later struggling , using both hands and feet,  to cross the stream.

Much more to say about this issue .. not talk about finding an agreed wording
for the disagreement.
As far as I understand 'your camp' relies on understanding.
To me it means ,   assuming by reading the patient information leaflet  the
intake of the medicine can be neglected.

(D:The background of the 5 Khandhas respectively their embedment within the Law
of Dependent Origination becomes significant only after the former is secured).
---------------------

KH: Let's change that statement to, "Agreed, fundamentally there is the world of
conditioned nama and rupa, but for our daily life the living being is more
significant . . . ." I think that sums up the attitude of most modern-day
Buddhists. The minority version (thankfully found here at DSG) says the exact
opposite. Nina has even written books about it: e.g., Abhidhamma in Daily Life.

D: Ken , it is significant only when one wants to make an end of suffering ..
and in this sense it is significant  for us who are Dhamma students , and in
this sense I assume Nina has written too..
I am not all objecting the Abhidhamma.. but the way you seem to me to  put into
perspective .


with Metta Dieter.


.





#127692	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:25 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Alex,
Op 9-nov-2012, om 17:21 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:
>
> >N:The main thing is understanding anattaa,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> And how does one exactly achieve that? There are many smart and
> learned people that know all the correct theory.
>
------
N: Listening, considering. Hearing again and again, and realizing
that <it is not in the book> as you also said. Begin with what is
right at hand: seeing now, visible object now, hearing now, sound
now, just as the Buddha explained all these realities. They are just
dhamma, conditioned, nobody can create them. First there is no sound,
then sound comes into being, from where? By conditions. Then it falls
away never to return. It does not last, so how can one have power
over it?
-------
>
> A: I question very hard and rigid approach of anatta and "no-
> control" to be thrusted too early before one fulfills other
> qualities such as sila and samadhi. It seems like a very convenient
> excuse to indulge in more self centered behavior.
>
> To me it appears that to understand anatta, one first needs to
> develop generosity, morality, renunciation, loving-kindness,
> patience, and other similar virtues.
>
------
N: Quite right, Alex. Very important. All the perfections have to be
developed along with right understanding. It is not: first, but
together with pa~n~naa, otherwise one still takes them for mine.
------
> A:And of course it includes meditation.
>
-----
N: Shall we say: mental development, meditation can be developing
understanding of what appears now.
------

> A: Only after that does good intellectual understanding of not-self
> can be properly applied.
>
-------
N: Let us say, pariyatti can develop, understanding of the present
moment, so that there are conditions for sati and direct understanding.
-------
>
> A:In Jataka tales the ethical aspects are stressed first. Not "read
> 100 books".
>
-------
N: Yes, the Jatakas are very good for practice. Very much about daily
life. Together with right understanding, not self who practises, then
it is useless. One accumulates more and more clinging to self who
wants to be such a good person.
---------
Nina.





#127693	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:25 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 moellerdieter 
 	
Dear Nina (Alex, KenH),

just a comment between .. not excluding your agreement ;.-)


you wrote:
N:The main thing is understanding anattaa,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
A: > And how does one exactly achieve that? There are many smart and > learned
people that know all the correct theory.


N: Listening, considering. Hearing again and again, and realizing that <it is
not in the book> as you also said. Begin with what is
right at hand: seeing now, visible object now, hearing now, sound now, just as
the Buddha explained all these realities. They are just
dhamma, conditioned, nobody can create them. First there is no sound, then sound
comes into being, from where? By conditions. Then it falls
away never to return. It does not last, so how can one have power over it?

D: agreed, no real power,  it comes by condition and falls , but power  seems to
me not the point  in respect to anatta.
Recalling e.g. Bahiya: only seeing, only hearing, etc., there is absence of
intention (nothing to do ) other than seeing,listening..pure awareness .
But this requires indeed preparation/training  in order to allow such condition
to arise (as mentioned in the Maha SatiPatthana Sutta  :
one needs to calm  body and mind.  Understanding alone doesn't help when the
common state of the monkey mind respectively niravana is   prevalent.

with Metta Dieter

   .





#127694	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:42 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vietnam 1	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Alex & all,
________________________________
> From: truth_aerator <truth_aerator@...>

>>N:The main thing is understanding anattaa,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>And how does one exactly achieve that? ....
...
S: "How does....?" will never understand anything because it indicates a self,
an idea of "doing" something.

Is there seeing now? What is it?

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127695	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:00 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Vietnam 1	 truth_aerator 
 	
Dear Sarah, all

>S:"How does....?" will never understand anything because it indicates >a self,
an idea of "doing" something.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Without effort at developing kusala qualities deeply ingrained akusala qualities
will win over any time and awakening will NEVER happen.

Eradication of self view starts (as appears in the suttas) with dana and other
ethical qualities. Jataka tales are an example. I am yet to find a Jataka where
Bodhisatta started with reading books.


With best wishes,

Alex


#127696	From: Alex <truth_aerator@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:19 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 truth_aerator 
 	
Dear Nina, all,


>N:Listening, considering. Hearing again and again, and realizing 
>that it is not in the book> as you also said. Begin with what is 
>right at hand: seeing now, visible object now, hearing now, sound 
>now, just as the Buddha explained all these realities. They are just >dhamma,
>conditioned, nobody can create them. First there is no >sound, >then sound
comes into >being, from where? By conditions. Then >it >falls  away never to
return. It does not last, >so how can one >have >power over it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For me, often there is no "seeing now, hearing now...etc". Often defilements
(and I have lots of them) color the perception.

The standard argument, as it seems, for DEEP Samadhi states is that when one has
temporarily suppressed the hindrances, then afterwards with hindrances gone, one
can just "see, hear...etc" now.  Otherwise whatever is seen or heard goes
through so much alteration that insight can't usually occur for average people.

I need to come to grips with the fact that kilesas, even if unnoticed, work hard
"behind the scenes" to make sure that I don't see things as they really are.
Often words, remain just words.

Sometimes I wonder how much of what I've heard goes in one ear and comes out
from another.


With best wishes,

Alex
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#127698	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:41 am 
Subject: was: Vietnam 1 now: Seeing now	 truth_aerator 
 	
Dear Dieter, Nina, all,

>D:Recalling e.g. Bahiya: only seeing, only hearing, etc., there is >absence of
intention (nothing to do ) other than >seeing,listening..pure awareness .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We need to take that instruction in FULL context. You can read that instruction
a 100 times or even 1000 times. Have you become an Arahant, or even Stream
Enterer? Why or why not? Something is really missing.

Bahiya was already an ascetic prior to meeting the Buddha. He even (falsely)
considered himself to be an Arahant. The commentaries state that he was in
previous life a monk under Buddha Kassapa. He climbed a steep, (almost
vertical?) mountain, threw away the ladder and with his friends resolved to
meditate until death or Awakening. Such a strong resolve! The point it seems
that Bahiya was really really ripe. It was not simply the case of considering
realities, although that too is important.


IMHO.


With metta,

Alex


#127699	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:16 am 
Subject: Vietnam 8 - last afternoon in Hanoi	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

A last update before an early breakfast and departure for Halong Bay on the NE
coast.

Lots of discussion about kamma and bhavanga cittas today, also birth and death.

I asked a friend who had had concerns about so much study and discussion whether
life such as home life, work life and so is easier with an understanding of
dhammas. He said it is, because it's the study of realities, of truths now. 

Kamma refers to deeds or actions by intention which may be kusala or akusala.
Deeds done produce results. The causes are different, so the results are
different too. To be born a human or a bird or a snake have different causes. It
explains why people are different. Some are wise, some not so, some wealthy,
others poor, some strong, others weak. The human birth is the result of kusala
kamma. After birth, kamma continues to bring results such as the seeing of
pleasant and unpleasant objects. We should understand which moments are cause
and which moments are result.

On birth, the patisandhi is the first citta which has to be 'born' to be a
being. It's only a result, there is no experience through any doorways. It's
followed by many bhavanga cittas which have a different function (that of
life-continuum) but are exactly the same kind of citta with the same object as
that patisandhi (and the last cuti citta of life) because they are caused by the
same kamma. The object of the patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas is not known
because it does not appear through the 6 doorways. When we are fast asleep, we
don't know our family, friends or any names. When we wake up, we think about
what has been experienced, so the world appears like now. It's all gone while
we're fast asleep. Even while we're fast asleep there can be the last moment of
life. So death is not frightening at all, just a moment of rest.

Citta itself accumulates kusala and akusala from the past til now, even though
the kusala and akusala have fallen away. Each citta passes on the latent
tendencies to the next citta. This is why conditions change depending on who we
associate with. There is so much to understand about what is taken for my life
and the others' lives. The next moment can be the death moment. Dhammas are
uncontrollable. This is how anatta can be understood - understanding how the
dhamma arising now is uncontrollable. Everyone lives in this world very
temporarily.

Kamma collects all deeds together so that they can produce rebirth. We need to
consider carefully about each word. What we call a dog is just shape and form of
various dhammas. Aksuala thoughts, don't produce but support akusala vipaka.

This life and next life, sanna arises with rebirth consciousness, just marking
the object which citta experiences. It no longer marks the object of the last
life. Just as when seeing, the sanna doesn't mark the sound.

Qu about bodily feelings, body consciousness and what the reality is when my
body feels relaxed. Thinking. The reality is thinking. 

Born to see, hear, think and be attached to whatever appears, not understanding
anything in life. What is the benefit of being born a human being? Only
understanding. The best thing in life is panna, the understanding of conditioned
realities. From now on, will you live to eat or to understand? One answer: Both!

Understanding of dhamma in any situation saves one from sorrow and dukkha.
Understanding is never harmful. One begins to understand what is meant by
"Buddham saranam gacchami, dhammam......sangham......gacchami. There is no
refuge in the Triple Gem if there is no understanding about realities or the
world as taught by the Buddha.

Sati - lots of people here have talked about it. Without understanding of the
Buddha's world, it's not known, there is no refuge in the teachings. There must
be pariyatti, very clear theoretical right understanding first. The Triple Gem -
so precious, so priceless.

Very heartfelt farewells and appreciation from some of our new friends we'll be
leaving in Hanoi. As our mini-bus drove away, we could see them standing by the
side of the road, holding their scooter and motor-bike helmets and waving. A
beautiful place with many wonderful people showing such a keen interest in
finding out more about the Teachings.

6 a.m. time to go down for breakfast!

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127700	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:02 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 egberdina 
 	
Hi KenH, and I think Dieter will be interested,

On 8 November 2012 07:08, Ken H <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Herman,
>
> -----
> > H: You have not responded to my question about the relevance of
> understanding what "present" might mean.
> -----
>
> KH: Sorry, my only excuse was that your question contained a typo: "Would
> it be fair to say that therefore an understanding of what "present" is
> pivotal?"
>
> I couldn't see how "present" could be a hard word to understand, so I
> thought you must have meant something else.
>
>
Well, present can mean at least two, and wildly different, things.

There is the present, as in the temporal present, of which you and I know
absolutely nothing, but of which some of us at least know that we know
nothing about it.

And there is the present, as in what is present in or to awareness, which
is well described as "the remembered present".

You rightly acknowledge to Dieter that getting the basics right isn't easy,
and you might like to clarify what you actually mean when you suggest that
the present is so obvious.




> -----
> > H: No dramas, I'm coping very well with that.
> -----
>
> KH: Of course you are. My only concern is with your choice of coping
> mechanisms. :-)
>
> -----------
> > H: Another question, which you are also free to not respond to would be:
>
> > Does one item constitute a list?
> > I would ask that in relation to the following synonyms, all the same
> single item - cessation, attaining-the-as-yet-unattained, understanding.
> > Mmm?
> ------------
>
> KH: Do you see what I mean? You created a rod for your own back when you
> told us about DMT (or whatever the name was). Now every time you say
> something ambiguous I think, "O-oh, Herman's back on the coping mechanisms!"
>
> I honestly don't know which "list" you are referring to. And I can't see
> how those three things could by synonyms.
>


Sorry, KenH, but it was you who brought up your view that Dhamma wasn't a
to-do-list. That is the list I am referring to. I would advise you, as a
friend, to be cautious about the conclusions that you jump to when you
don't understand something. especially with your failing memory :-) Now
that you hopefully understand a little better, perhaps you can consider
whether "cessation, attaining-the-as-yet-unattained, understanding" are in
fact a Buddhist to-do-list, and are in fact, in that regard, synonymous.

My experimenting with DMT is another case in point, you clearly know
nothing about DMT, but are happy enough to jump to a conclusion about it.

Some facts.

My interest was piqued when I read accounts of others peoples experiences,
especially because of the parallels with things that are written in the
Pali Canon.

I researched very in-depth for over a year before I went anywhere near it.

Anytime I experimented I prepared myself thoroughly. Setting and mindset
are pivotal when you know beforehand that your universe is going to be
blown to smithereens while also understanding that you have no idea what
that amounts to.

Let me assure you, there is absolutely no recreational element to ingesting
DMT, the idea of it somehow being a coping mechanism is hilarious.

In a DMT experience, even the most deluded being could not hang on to a
belief in a self that is somehow in control. Losing all ability to orient
in time or space, one is taken to hells or heavens, with no ability to
predict. It became obvious why for the unprepared, such a launch into the
reality of anatta results in an enduring psychoses. The world of daily life
clearly is not what it seems, and never again can be.

And I assure, there is no useful reminder in parroting some pariyatti about
anatta - pariyatti, now there's a coping mechanism


--
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




#127702	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:12 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Dieter,

--------
<. . .>
> D: Actually I tried to explain my list absence due to some sort of tiredness:
so many mails and so little of what had been agreed upon.
---------

KH: That's what I thought you were saying. Therefore I suggested, as an
experiment, that each of us could stop trying to convince the other, and instead
just define the two perspectives (camps) that exist at DSG.

-------------
<. . .>
> D: no, Ken ..'suffering in brief ' is defined by 5 khandha attachment .
  --------------

KH: You've got me there.  No matter how many times I see this point explained it
never fully sinks in.  I gather that the four supramundane khandhas, which exist
in a moment of path consciousness, are excluded from "the five aggregates of
clinging" (but not from "the five aggregates").  That much I do know, but I
don't remember the significance of it. Does it mean the aggregates not subject
to clinging are inherently anicca and anatta but *not* dukkha?

---------------------------
> D: That is quite important , because if suffering would be defined by the
khandhas only , then life per se would be suffering including the Arahant and a
cessation this very life time impossible.
---------------------------

KH: I think that might be your own interpretation. The fact that mundane dhammas
are dukkha does not mean they are all accompanied by domanosa (unpleasant
feeling).   It just means their fleeting nature has made them unworthy of
attachment.

-----------------
<. . .>
> D: there we have the mix again, Ken: There is the conventional, the mundane
truth and the higher, the supermundane truth.
-----------------

KH: As has been explained to you on scores of occasions  at DSG, your
interpretations of the terms `mundane' ((lokiya) and `supramundane' (lokuttara) 
are  contrary to the  Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries.  In the Tipitaka,
`lokiya' refers to all conditioned dhammas except for the path and fruition
dhammas, which are referred to as `lokuttara.'

--------------------------
<. . .>
> D: The latter (5 khandha-attachment) is explained in detail by the Law of
Dependent Origination.
The Buddha proclaimed that without old age, sickness and death there would be no
teaching ( of :this is suffering.. etc)
I wonder why it is so difficult to understand that there are two levels to
express the truth. .
------------------------

KH: No matter how it is expressed the truth always remains the same: there is no
self; there are only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas over which there is
no control.

---------------------------------
<. . .>
>> KH: I suspect you are suggesting that every conventionally worded sutta is
evidence of a conventional teaching (a list of things to do) given by the
Buddha.

> D: you want me to quote?
---------------------------------

KH: Yes and no. Yes because Dhamma discussions are always welcome, and no
because *at a superficial level*   all conventionally worded sutta quotes appear
to be lists of things to do.
I already know that. :-)

------------------------------------------
>> KH: <. . .> all conventional terminology found in the Tipitaka is to be
understood in terms of ultimate reality (uncontrollable conditioned namas and
rupas).
-----------------

D: that could be our first point for the file 'agreed to disagree'

---------------------------------

KH But don't you know there are suttas in which the Buddha expressly referred to
his use of conventional language? At a superficial level it seems to refer to
concepts, but the Buddha said he was never "caught out" by it in that way. By
inference he expected his audiences to, likewise, not be caught out by
conventional language.

I will end this post here because it is already quite long.  I think we have
established beyond doubt that the two perspectives are totally at odds with each
other. They require conflicting interpretations of virtually every point taught
in the Tipitaka.

Ken H


#127703	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:19 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Herman,

-----
<. . .>
> H: There is the present, as in the temporal present, of which you and I know
absolutely nothing,
  -----

KH: Speak for yourself!  :-) Thanks to the Dhamma I have a wonderful theoretical
knowledge of the present-moment reality.

  --------------
> H: but of which some of us at least know that we know nothing about it.
--------------

KH: You would be well advised to take refuge in the Triple Gem.

-----------------------
> H: And there is the present, as in what is present in or to awareness, which
is well described as "the remembered present".
--------------------

KH: Too complicated for me, sorry!

----------------------------
> H: You rightly acknowledge to Dieter that getting the basics right isn't easy,
and you might like to clarify what you actually mean when you suggest that the
present is so obvious.
----------------------------

KH: No, I said the meaning of the word `present' was obvious.

But let's not argue! :-)

-----
<. . .>
> H: <. . .> it was you who brought up your view that Dhamma wasn't a
to-do-list. That is the list I am referring to. I would advise you, as a friend,
to be cautious about the conclusions that you jump to when you don't understand
something. especially with your failing memory :-)
-----

KH: Oh, *that* list! Now I remember. :-)

---------------------------------
> H: Now that you hopefully understand a little better, perhaps you can consider
whether "cessation, attaining-the-as-yet-unattained, understanding" are in fact
a Buddhist to-do-list, and are in fact, in that regard, synonymous.
-------------------------------

KH: If it is something to `do' as distinct from something that happens when it
is conditioned to happen, then it is not the Dhamma.

--------------
> H: My experimenting with DMT is another case in point, you clearly know
nothing about DMT, but are happy enough to jump to a conclusion about it.
----------------

KH: Sorry for being a little hasty.

-------------------
<. . .>
> H: Let me assure you, there is absolutely no recreational element to ingesting
DMT, the idea of it somehow being a coping mechanism is hilarious.
-------------------

KH: Like so many other practices it is a wrong path. Wrong paths are for people
who can't cope with anatta. So it is a coping mechanism.

-------------------------------
<. . .>
> H: In a DMT experience, even the most deluded being could not hang on to a
belief in a self that is somehow in control. Losing all ability to orient
in time or space, one is taken to hells or heavens, with no ability to
predict. It became obvious why for the unprepared, such a launch into the
reality of anatta results in an enduring psychoses. The world of daily life
clearly is not what it seems, and never again can be.
----------------------------------

KH: Back in the bad old days I had a "profound" meditation experience in which I
knew beyond doubt, "I do not exist!"

It seemed like a sign of progress until I learned some years later that "I do
not exist" was an expression of wrong view.

And it was!

---------------------
> D: And I assure, there is no useful reminder in parroting some pariyatti about
anatta - pariyatti, now there's a coping mechanism
---------------------

KH: Now let me think: Lord Buddha or Lord DMT, which one . . .
:-)

Ken H


#127704	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:20 pm 
Subject: The Questions: The Fire Of Purgatory	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members.

The Questions Of King Milinda
[Translated ted by T.W.Rhys Davids]

#4. The king said: 'You (Buddhists 3) say thus: "The fire of purgatory is very
much more fierce than an ordinary fire. A small stone cast into an ordinary fire
may smoke for a day without being destroyed; but a rock as big as an upper
chamber cast into the furnace of purgatory would be that moment destroyed." That
is a statement I cannot believe. Now, on the other hand you say thus:
"Whatsoever beings are there reborn, though they burn for hundreds of thousands
of years in purgatory, yet are they not destroyed." That too is a statement 1
don't believe.'

The Elder said: 'Now what do you think, O king? Do not the females of sharks 1
and crocodiles and tortoises and peacocks and pigeons eat hard bits of stone and
gravel?'

'Yes, Sir. They do.'

'What then? Are these hard things, when they have got into the stomach, into the
interior of the abdomen, destroyed?'

'Yes, they are destroyed.'

'And the embryo that may be inside the same animals,--is that too destroyed?'

'Certainly not.'

'But why not.'

'I suppose, Sir, it escapes destruction by the influence of Karma.'

'Just so, great king, it is through the influence of Karma that beings, though
they have been for thousands of years in purgatory, are not destroyed. If they
are reborn there, there do they grow up, and there do they die. For this, O
king, has been declared by the Blessed One: "He does not die until that evil
Karma is exhausted 2."

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Do not the females of lions and tigers and
panthers and dogs eat hard bits of bone and flesh?'

'Yes, they eat such things.'

'What then? are such hard things, [68] when they have got into the stomach, into
the interior of the abdomen, destroyed?'

'Yes, they are destroyed?'

'And the embryo that may be inside the same animals,--is that too destroyed?'

'Certainly not.'

'But why not?'

'I suppose, Sir, it escapes destruction by the influence of Karma.'

'Just so, great king, it is by the influence of Karma that beings in purgatory,
though they burn for thousands of years, are not destroyed.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Do not the tender women--wives of the Yonakas,
and nobles, and brahmins, and householders--eat hard cakes and meat.

'Yes, they eat such hard things.'

'And when those hard things have got into the stomach, into the interior of the
abdomen, are not they destroyed?'

'Yes, they are.'

'But the children in their womb,--are they destroyed?'

'Certainly not.'

'And why not?'

'I suppose, Sir, they escape destruction by the influence of Karma?'

'Just so, great king, it is through the influence of Karma that beings in
purgatory, though they burn for thousands of years, yet are they not destroyed,
If they are reborn there, there do they grow up, and there do they die. For
this, O king, has been declared by the Blessed One: "He does not die until that
evil Karma is exhausted."'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'

***********
yawares/sirikanya


#127705	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:09 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Dieter,
Op 9-nov-2012, om 20:25 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

> Recalling e.g. Bahiya: only seeing, only hearing, etc., there is
> absence of intention (nothing to do ) other than
> seeing,listening..pure awareness .
-----
N: And understanding.
------
> But this requires indeed preparation/training in order to allow
> such condition to arise (as mentioned in the Maha SatiPatthana Sutta :
> one needs to calm body and mind. Understanding alone doesn't help
> when the common state of the monkey mind respectively niravana is
> prevalent.
------
N: Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta: seeing citta in citta: which citta has
to be known? The first mentioned: citta with lobha. It is not said:
suppress lobha first or be calm first.
Also akusala has to be understood as just a dhamma.
-----
Nina.





#127706	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:14 am 
Subject: Poland, (2012-09-13-pm-b-00-a) what is dhamma (no 1).	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,
Poland, (2012-09-13-pm-b-00-a)

Acharn: <For aeons we have accumulated bad inclinations and it is
time to have other accumulated habits, with Dhamma. Life is so short,
what is the best in every moment? A change cannot be in one day, but
it can be developed little by little. Understand first: what is
dhamma, before one can understand kusala and akusala dhammas. Each
word of the teachings is about understanding. Every word should be
understood clearly and deeply.

No one can develop samatha and vipassanaa without understanding what
it is. No one can develop satipa.t.thaana if there is no understandig
of dhamma. Kusala is not a person, akusala is not a person. It is
dhamma, only a reality.

Whatever arises and appears is conditioned. This is the beginning of
the growth of pa~n~naa, one’s own pa~n~naa. You do not have to
believe anyone but you can consider dhamma. Are you looking for
dhamma now? When you know what dhamma is you do not have to look for
dhamma. There is always dhamma but no understanding of it as it is.>

---------

Nina.






#127707	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:20 am 
Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 nilovg 
 	
(This part was lacking)
Dear friends,

Sri Lanka is the country where the teachings have been preserved
after Buddhism declined in India and therefore it is not surprising
that relics of the Buddha have been enshrined in stupas of this
country. We had an opportunity to visit the stupa where the relic of
the Buddha’s forehead-bone had been enshrined, the stupa of
Seruwawila which is not far from Trincomali, on the East coast.
Seruwawila is said to be one of the sixteen places in Sri Lanka the
Buddha visited himself. He came three times to Sri Lanka and visited
Seruwawila during his third visit. He predicted that in this place
his forehead-bone relic would be enshrined.

We went to Seruwawila in a van, together with the group of monks. An
elderly Singhalese monk received us in Seruwawila and he gave an
account of the history of the relic in Singhalese which was
translated into English. Mahå-Kassapa had in India given the relic to
Mahå-Nanda, an enlightened monk. Mahå-Nanda brought the relic to Sri
Lanka where it was kept in Tissåråma, the first monastery in Sri
Lanka, which was founded by King Devanampiya Tissa and later on
developed into the Mahå-vihåra. King Kåkavanna Tissa, King
Dutthagåmaùí’s father, had the stupa constructed in Seruwawila where
the relic was transferred. The relic chamber was securely built into
the stupa and covered by masonry, and the stupa was covered by
another one, the outer stupa, so that the relic could never be taken
away. Later on the place of this stupa became unknown for several
centuries and it was inaccessible because of the jungle around it. In
1923 it was rediscovered and restored. A vihåra was built and a road
constructed so that it could become once again a place of worship. We
payed respect in walking around the stupa three times and then we sat
down near the stupa for a Dhamma discussion.

When we were in Kandy we payed respect to the Buddha’s Tooth relic in
the “Dawada Maligawa”, the Temple of the Sacred Tooth. When we pay
respect to the relics of the Buddha, kusala cittas may arise, but
also akusala cittas are bound to arise. We may have attachment to the
idea that there is something left of the Buddha. Some people have
aversion towards the idea of a relic. One of my friends had aversion
each time when she was inside the Tooth Temple. Paying respect to the
Buddha’s relics is only meaningful if we recollect his excellent
qualities. The relics can remind us directly of his excellent
qualities because they are what remained of his body, the body of a
Buddha endowed with thirtytwo bodily characteristics each one of
which was conditioned by kamma.

*******

Nina.



#127708	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:47 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 moellerdieter 
 	
Dear Nina,



you wrote:

( D;But this requires indeed preparation/training in order to allow > such
condition to arise (as mentioned in the Maha SatiPatthana Sutta :
> one needs to calm body and mind. Understanding alone doesn't help > when the
common state of the monkey mind respectively niravana is
> prevalent.)
------
N: Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta: seeing citta in citta: which citta has to be
known? The first mentioned: citta with lobha. It is not said:
suppress lobha first or be calm first.Also akusala has to be understood as just
a dhamma.
-----


D: I think it is quiet obvious that e.g.  restlessness and mindfulness are
mutually exclusive .Please compare the Sutta text (DN 22 ) :

"What are the four?

"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent,
clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world,
covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings,
ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in
this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in
consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having
overcome in this world covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental
objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of
them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief."

not suppress lobha but ' having overcome' , there are numerous comments one may
quote , one example :

"At first glance, the four frames of reference for satipatthana practice sound
like four different meditation exercises, but MN 118 makes clear that they can
all center on a single practice: keeping the breath in mind. When the mind is
with the breath, all four frames of reference are right there. The difference
lies simply in the subtlety of one's focus. It's like learning to play the
piano. As you get more proficient at playing, you also become sensitive in
listening to ever more subtle levels in the music. This allows you to play even
more skillfully. In the same way, as a meditator gets more skilled in staying
with the breath, the practice of satipatthana gives greater sensitivity in
peeling away ever more subtle layers of participation in the present moment
until nothing is left standing in the way of total release."(Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

with Metta Dieter






#127709	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:18 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi KenH,

you wrote:

D: no, Ken ..'suffering in brief ' is defined by 5 khandha attachment .
--------------

KH: You've got me there. No matter how many times I see this point explained it
never fully sinks in. I gather that the four supramundane khandhas, which exist
in a moment of path consciousness, are excluded from "the five aggregates of
clinging" (but not from "the five aggregates"). That much I do know, but I don't
remember the significance of it.

D: you need to keep the embedment of the khandhas within D.O. in mind... the
point of clinging is conditioned by the  links
of ....passa..vedana ...tanha .. upadana ...etc.
At the moment of path consciousness the process is interrupted , detachment
instead of attachment , i.e. no upadana conditioning bhava.



KH: Does it mean the aggregates not subject to clinging are inherently anicca
and anatta but *not* dukkha?

D: strictly speaking the khandhas  are concepts of groupings of specified
dhammas . If , refering to the living being ( the gathering of the 5 Khandhas), 
one says the D.O. process ( describing the (origination of ) "whole mass of
suffering")  happens with these aggregates  , the khandhas represent  suffering.
But this would be valid only as long attachment lasts , in the moment of path
consciousness there is detachment (free from suffering) , but not (yet) the
breakdown of the Khandha grouping ..which I assume happens with Pari Nibbana.



  ---------------------------
> D: That is quite important , because if suffering would be defined by the
khandhas only , then life per se would be suffering including the Arahant and a
cessation this very life time impossible.
---------------------------

KH: I think that might be your own interpretation. The fact that mundane dhammas
are dukkha does not mean they are all accompanied by domanosa (unpleasant
feeling). It just means their fleeting nature has made them unworthy of
attachment.


D: I wonder whether you understand my point as explained above


-----------------
<. . .>
> D: there we have the mix again, Ken: There is the conventional, the mundane
truth and the higher, the supermundane truth.
-----------------

KH: As has been explained to you on scores of occasions at DSG, your
interpretations of the terms `mundane' ((lokiya) and `supramundane' (lokuttara)
are contrary to the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries. In the Tipitaka,
`lokiya' refers to all conditioned dhammas except for the path and fruition
dhammas, which are referred to as `lokuttara.'

--------------------------

D: I recall extensive discussions
I understand that  there is lokiya =the mundane (daily life) and the super
-mundane (the highest of mundane = D.O. )
and lokuttara , the supra-mundane ( the beyond of the condtioned=nibbana) ..


<. . .>
> D: The latter (5 khandha-attachment) is explained in detail by the Law of
Dependent Origination.
The Buddha proclaimed that without old age, sickness and death there would be no
teaching ( of :this is suffering.. etc)
I wonder why it is so difficult to understand that there are two levels to
express the truth. .
------------------------

KH: No matter how it is expressed the truth always remains the same: there is no
self; there are only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas over which there is
no control.


D: but this truth needs not only to be understood but penetrated and  realized ,
up to then ( last fetter mana/conceit) the ignorance /delusion of self is
prevalent. ( For example :a mirage is taken for real until it is discerned as
such).


---------------------------------
<. . .>
>> KH: I suspect you are suggesting that every conventionally worded sutta is
evidence of a conventional teaching (a list of things to do) given by the
Buddha.

> D: you want me to quote?
---------------------------------

KH: Yes and no. Yes because Dhamma discussions are always welcome, and no
because *at a superficial level* all conventionally worded sutta quotes appear
to be lists of things to do.
I already know that. :-)

D: starting with the training of the precepts .. nothing to do /not to do ?



------------------------------------------
>> KH: <. . .> all conventional terminology found in the Tipitaka is to be
understood in terms of ultimate reality (uncontrollable conditioned namas and
rupas).
-----------------

D: that could be our first point for the file 'agreed to disagree'

---------------------------------

KH But don't you know there are suttas in which the Buddha expressly referred to
his use of conventional language? At a superficial level it seems to refer to
concepts, but the Buddha said he was never "caught out" by it in that way. By
inference he expected his audiences to, likewise, not be caught out by
conventional language.

quoting from Wiki :"a phrase or passage, or a whole sutta, might be classed as
neyyattha or samuti or vohara, but it is not regarded at this stage as
expressing or conveying a different level of truth.Nitattha (Pali; Sanskrit:
nitartha), "of plain or clear meaning"[2] and neyyattha (Pali; Sanskrit:
neyartha), "[a word or sentence] having a sense that can only be guessed".[2]
These terms were used to identify texts or statements that either did or did not
require additional interpretation. A nitattha text required no explanation,
while a neyyattha one might mislead some people unless properly explained:[3]
   There are these two who misrepresent the Tathagata. Which two? He who
represents a Sutta of indirect meaning as a Sutta of direct meaning and he who
represents a Sutta of direct meaning as a Sutta of indirect meaning.[4] "



KH:I will end this post here because it is already quite long. I think we have
established beyond doubt that the two perspectives are totally at odds with each
other. They require conflicting interpretations of virtually every point taught
in the Tipitaka.

D: not conflicting , Ken .You simply cannot deny that the Buddha spoke of two
kinds of right understanding ..as quoted before.
Likewise  classical physics and quantum physics are only contradicting eachother
(in many points) as far as it is overlooked that
each is valid in its own domain.

with Metta Dieter





#127710	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:06 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 ptaus1 
 	
Hi Dieter,

> D: you need to keep the embedment of the khandhas within D.O. in mind... the
point of clinging is conditioned by the  links
> of ....passa..vedana ...tanha .. upadana ...etc.
> At the moment of path consciousness the process is interrupted , detachment
instead of attachment , i.e. no upadana conditioning bhava.


I was under the impression that the same thing (no conditioning of bhava)
happens in an instance when an ordinary (mundane) kusala citta with panna of
insight kind arises? So, a kusala citta with panna and with an object that is a
conditioned dhamma (so a dhamma other than nibbana). Thanks.

Best wishes
pt


#127711	From: "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:29 pm 
Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 jagkrit2012 
 	
Dear Nina

>N:  When we were in Kandy we payed respect to the Buddha's Tooth relic in
> the "Dawada Maligawa", the Temple of the Sacred Tooth.

> When we pay  respect to the relics of the Buddha, kusala cittas may arise, but
> also akusala cittas are bound to arise.

> We may have attachment to the  idea that there is something left of the
Buddha.

> Paying respect to the  Buddha's relics is only meaningful if we recollect his
excellent
> qualities. The relics can remind us directly of his excellent
> qualities because they are what remained of his body, the body of a
> Buddha endowed with thirtytwo bodily characteristics each one of
> which was conditioned by kamma.

-------------------

JJ: This is so true. Most of the time, when most of people pay respect to the
Buddha's relic, if they have little knowledge of Buddha's teaching, akusala
arises. Most of Thai people including me, pay respect to the Buddha's relic with
faith not with panna, expecting to gain kusala from paying respect. Sometime, we
wish for something while paying respect.

It is impossible to recall any of his excellent qualities (Buddha nusati)
without any knowledge and understanding of his teaching.

There is a sutta saying that even a noble one can not recall all of his
excellent qualities. Comparing to air under the wing of a bird as recollection
of the Buddha's quality which the noble one can recall with all air around the
world as total quality of Buddha.

Thank you very much for your valuable massage and anumodhana

Jagkrit


#127712	From: "Christine" <cjforsyth1@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:49 pm 
Subject: Dana and Greed	 christine_fo... 
 	
Hello all,

I have been wondering about `making good kamma''.

If one gives food and gifts to the Sangha out of respect and gratitude, a side
effect is that one makes good kamma.

But – what if one gives to the Sangha for the sole purpose of making good kamma?
Wouldn't this be greed?

With metta
Chris


#127713	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:04 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 egberdina 
 	
Hi KenH,

On 10 November 2012 17:19, Ken H <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Herman,
>
>
I have snipped some of the below for the sake of brevity only.

<..>

  ---------------------------------

> > H: Now that you hopefully understand a little better, perhaps you can
> consider whether "cessation, attaining-the-as-yet-unattained,
> understanding" are in fact a Buddhist to-do-list, and are in fact, in that
> regard, synonymous.
> -------------------------------
>
> KH: If it is something to `do' as distinct from something that happens
> when it is conditioned to happen, then it is not the Dhamma.
>
>

Kamma plays no role in Dhamma. Have I paraphrased you correctly?


>

--
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




#127714	From: han tun <hantun1@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:21 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dana and Greed	 hantun1 
 	
Dear Chris,

In Burma, when we make offerings to the monks, the monks always remind us to
recite verbally and also to keep in mind: "Nibbaana paccayo hotu" (let it be the
condition for the attainment of Nibbaana).  Anything short of that will be
"lobha." However, in one Burmese book, lobha cetasika is graded in three levels:
chanda, ta.nhaa, and upaadaana, according to the intensity of the craving. So
if, for example, one makes offerings with the expectation of fortunate rebirth
in the deva world, it may be graded as "chanda" or a very mild ta.nhaa. Anyway,
if making daana with the expectation of rebirth in deva world were an akusala
the Buddha would not have taught the six kathaas (which includes sagga-kathaa)
in gradual instruction or gradual training (anupubbi-sikkhaa).

with metta and respect,
Han

--- On Sun, 11/11/12, Christine <cjforsyth1@...> wrote:
Hello all,

I have been wondering about `making good kamma''.

If one gives food and gifts to the Sangha out of respect and gratitude, a side
effect is that one makes good kamma.

But – what if one gives to the Sangha for the sole purpose of making good
kamma? Wouldn't this be greed?

With metta
Chris


#127715	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:16 pm 
Subject: Poland, (2012-09-13-pm-b-00-a), what is dhamma (2).	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

Acharn: <Is there any difference between living in the world of
concepts and living in the world of absolute realities? What is the
difference? It is actually: living in the world of ignorance and
living in the world of right understanding. The world of concepts
consists of cup, table, person, things. But in the absolute sense can
whatever appears be someone or something permanent? They seem to be
permanent because realities arise and fall away so rapidly. It seems
as if there is no arising and falling away of anything at all. Even
the arising of seeing does not appear and, thus, the falling away of
it cannot appear. In reality seeing    arises by conditions and it
passes away instantly. Whatever is experienced is gone as soon as it
is experienced. This is the beginning, the intellectual understanding
which will lead to sacca ~naa.na, kicca ~naa.na and kata ~naa.na.

(N: There must be three rounds of understanding the noble Truths:
sacca ~naa.na, understanding of what has to be known and what the
Path is; kicca ~naa.na, understanding of the task, that is,
satipa.t.thaana; kata ~naa.na: understanding of what has been
realized, the realisation of the truth.)

Sacca ~naa.na is right understanding which is very firmly
established, never wavering at all.

This moment is just very temporary, it appears and disappears unknown
all the time, otherwise there would be no change. One can see change,
but not the falling away of each moment. If there would not be the
arising and falling away of realities there is no change to be seen.
One day the sun will break up. believe it or not, but not now. Each
moment, whatever arises appears and passes away. It falls away
completely.>

*******

Nina.






#127716	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:20 pm 
Subject: Return to Hong Kong	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Friends,

At Hanoi airport, about to board our flight back to Hong Kong. A wonderful trip
- meeting new Vietnamese friends, so keen to discuss Dhamma and so very
considerate and kind in all ways. We learnt a lot from them. Yesterday, last
night and this morning we all stayed together on a large 'junk' boat in Halong
Bay, a World Heritage site  which was beautiful. Visible object! Lots of
discussion - perhaps some of our Vietnamese friends will mention what they found
most interesting! Probably it was the shock for some of being told about the
understanding realities, not of doing anything by anyone.

We parted with gifts and lots of smiles - a very memorable week indeed!

Will catch up in a couple of days.

Metta

Sarah
====


#127717	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:50 pm 
Subject: The Questions: World/Is Cessation Nirvana?	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members.

The Questions Of King Milinda
[Translated ted by T.W.Rhys Davids]

#5. The king said: 'Venerable Nâgasena, your people say that the world rests on
water, the water on air, the air on space 1. This saying also I cannot believe.'

Then the Elder brought water in a regulation water-pot 2, and convinced king
Milinda, saying: 'As this water is supported by the atmosphere, so is that water
supported by air.'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'

____________________

#6. The king said: 'Is cessation Nirvâna 3?

'Yes, your Majesty' [69].

'How is, that, Nâgasena?'

'All foolish individuals, O king, take pleasure in
the senses and in the objects of sense, find delight in them, continue to cleave
to them 1. Hence are they carried down by that flood (of human passions), they
are not set free from birth, old age, and death, from grief, lamentation, pain,
sorrow, and despair,--they are not set free, I say, from suffering. But the
wise, O king, the disciple of the noble ones, neither takes pleasure in those
things, nor finds delight in them, nor continues cleaving to them. And inasmuch
as he does not, in him craving 2 ceases, and by the cessation of craving
grasping 2 ceases, and by the cessation of grasping becoming 2 ceases, and when
becoming has ceased birth ceases, and with its cessation birth, old age, and
death, grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair cease to exist. Thus is the
cessation brought about the end of all that aggregation of pain. Thus is it that
cessation is Nirvâna.'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'

*************
yawares/sirikanya


#127718	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:08 am 
Subject: Poland. (2012-09-13-pm-b-00-b.) What is dhamma (3).	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

Acharn asked Lukas whether he had a delicious meal and could remember
the taste.
Acharn: <It is so very important at the moment of having it, it is so
delicious. But afterwards, where is it? It never comes back. You
could not remember either what you ate, I mean, the taste. It was so
delicious. It is gone, what is left is only the memory of it which is
not as clear as when it appears, it is like a dream.
You think that people or things are permanent, but actually it is not
what you think.
Seeing dies, hearing dies at this moment, so, where are people, where
is a person? Where is a person who dies? In reality there is no
person. A moment of seeing cannot be a person, it arises and falls
away. We think that there is a permanent person who sees, who hears,
but actually, seeing is conditioned. >
Lukas: <People do not see reality.>
Acharn: <It is like looking for dhamma but no understanding of
dhamma. When there is understanding you cannot escape from or go away
from dhamma. There is the arising of dhamma, it is not you. Life
exists only in a moment of experiencing an object.>
******
Nina.


#127719	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:30 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Alex,
Op 10-nov-2012, om 0:19 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven:
>
> >N:...Begin with what is
> >right at hand: seeing now, visible object now,
>
> Sometimes I wonder how much of what I've heard goes in one ear and
> comes out from another.
>
-------
N: You use the same words as Lodewijk who said the same.
So many moments of forgetfulness, but we all have those. No wonder,
it has been accumulated for aeons. We should not have expectations
about understanding, then we take it for mine.
What we learn by heart is forgotten in a next life, but what has been
understood is remembered. What we really understand we remember. We
have not listened enough yet. While listening we understand a little
more each time and this little understanding accumulates. Patience,
khanti, is important.
--------
>
> A:For me, often there is no "seeing now, hearing now...etc". Often
> defilements (and I have lots of them) color the perception.
>
-------
N: Everybody sees and hears, but defilements arise soon afterwards.
So, there is seeing now, and gradually we can learn to attend to its
characteristic; it experiences just what is visible, nothing else.
People and things are not seen, they are objects of thinking arising
afterwards. Thinking is done either with kusala cittas or with
akusala cittas. Usually we think with lobha, dosa and moha.
-------
>
> A: The standard argument, as it seems, for DEEP Samadhi states is
> that when one has temporarily suppressed the hindrances, then
> afterwards with hindrances gone, one can just "see, hear...etc"
> now.  Otherwise whatever is seen or heard goes through so much
> alteration that insight can't usually occur for average people.
>
-------
N: We have to understand what samatha is. It is not a feeling of calm
in conventional sense. Pa~n~naa is an indispensable factor; it has to
know the characeristic of true calm which is being removed from
defilements. Otherwise we take attachment for true calm, we like it
so much, it feels so good, like a relief. It has to be known very
precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala. When access
concentration or jhaana has been attained indeed the hindrances are
temporarily suppressed. Then, when emerging from jhaana defilements
arise again and they have to be known as just conditioned dhammas,
otherwise they can never be eradicated.
-------
>
> A: I need to come to grips with the fact that kilesas, even if
> unnoticed, work hard "behind the scenes" to make sure that I don't
> see things as they really are. Often words, remain just words.
>
-------
N: We are in the dark very often, but pa~n~naa is like a light, it
illuminates. By getting used to the characteristics of realities
appearing now understanding is being developed little by little. It
cannot be otherwise, we have to accept that it is little by little.
--------
Nina.





#127720	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:36 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Jagkrit,
Op 11-nov-2012, om 5:29 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven:

> Most of the time, when most of people pay respect to the Buddha's
> relic, if they have little knowledge of Buddha's teaching, akusala
> arises. Most of Thai people including me, pay respect to the
> Buddha's relic with faith not with panna, expecting to gain kusala
> from paying respect. Sometime, we wish for something while paying
> respect.
>
> It is impossible to recall any of his excellent qualities (Buddha
> nusati) without any knowledge and understanding of his teaching.
>
--------
N: Well said. I had once a conversation with Acharn about this
subject. While paying respect we can make the resolve just to
continue developing right understanding on and on.
I think it does not matter for how many lives.
-----
Nina.


#127721	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:41 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 truth_aerator 
 	
Dear Nina,

Thank you very much for your reply.


With best wishes,

Alex


#127722	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:44 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Dieter,
Op 10-nov-2012, om 16:47 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:
>
>
> D: I think it is quiet obvious that e.g. restlessness and
> mindfulness are mutually exclusive .Please compare the Sutta text
> (DN 22 ) :
>
------
N: They cannot arise at the same time, but after restlessness has
fallen away it can be object of mindfulness so that it is understood
as condiitoned, not self.
------
> Ven. Thanissaro: "At first glance, the four frames of reference for
> satipatthana practice sound like four different meditation
> exercises, but MN 118 makes clear that they can all center on a
> single practice: keeping the breath in mind. When the mind is with
> the breath, all four frames of reference are right there.
>
---------
N: Understanding is needed so that it is clearly known what breath
is: only a kind of ruupa, a dhamma. But we cling so much to it, our
life depends on it. Not only breath should be known as a dhamma, all
naama and ruupa should be objects of sati and understood as they
really are. Compare the Path of Discrimination, where all realities
that should be known are enumerated. Also akusala dhammas should be
rightly understood, compare cittanupassanaa and dhammanupassanaa: the
hindrances, all defilements should be known, not just breath.
------
Nina.
>
>
>
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#127723	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:43 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi Pt,

you wrote:
(D: you need to keep the embedment of the khandhas within D.O. in mind... the
point of clinging is conditioned by the links
> of ....passa..vedana ...tanha .. upadana ...etc. > At the moment of path
consciousness the process is interrupted , detachment instead of attachment ,
i.e. no upadana conditioning bhava. )

I was under the impression that the same thing (no conditioning of bhava)
happens in an instance when an ordinary (mundane) kusala citta with panna of
insight kind arises? So, a kusala citta with panna and with an object that is a
conditioned dhamma (so a dhamma other than nibbana). Thanks.

D: good that you refer to  it, Pt.
I think it is often overlooked that kusala / akusala are qualities of
samsara/D.O., i.e. still lokiya  .
The moments of lokuttara /path consciousness however  are lokuttara , associated
with the unconditioned,  nibbana .

with Metta Dieter





#127724	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:08 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 moellerdieter 
 	
Dear Nina,

you wrote:

N: Understanding is needed so that it is clearly known what breath  is: only
a kind of ruupa, a dhamma. But we cling so much to it, our
life depends on it. Not only breath should be known as a dhamma, all  naama
and ruupa should be objects of sati and understood as they
really are. Compare the Path of Discrimination, where all realities  that
should be known are enumerated. Also akusala dhammas should be
rightly understood, compare cittanupassanaa and dhammanupassanaa: the
hindrances, all defilements should be known, not just breath

D:  Nina , we agree about h the importance (forerunner  ) of understanding.
However , about the  role of anapana sati.  The point is not only that
breath should be known as dhamma ( significant e.g. the relation with
emotion) ,
but the attention to it which keeps us in the present and hinders the mind
to wander.
I recall that somebody mentioned that being mindful of the breath for 7
consecutive  days fullfils the stated possibility of enlightenment in one
week
(Maha Satipatthana Sutta)  .. considered , that many people are not even
able to do that for 7 minutes  , it may be not so unlikely..;-)

with Metta Dieter


#127725	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:40 am 
Subject: What I heard: momentary death.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

Momentary death.
   The life of a person lasts only one moment of citta. We think of a
long life but there are only cittas, one at a time, arising and
falling away in succession. One may believe that life lasts long but
we can reduce it to one moments of citta. Life is only one moment of
seeing, seeing now is life. Seeing arises and sees for a very short
time. When there is hearing, hearing is life, it lasts only one
moment of citta and then there is death. A person who develops
mindfulness of death can also develop the perfection of pa~n~naa. He
does not merely reflect on conventional death, considering with
detachment that nobody can be the owner of anything and that there
must be an end to what one takes for I or mine. But in this way
defilements cannot be eradicated.

One should understand momentary death, death at each moment, at each
moment of seeing: seeing arises and then dies. There is death at the
moment of hearing, hearing arises and then dies. And it is the same
with smelling or thinking. If one understands momentary death in this
way one is able to consider the characteristics of realities that
appear. There are different levels of mindfulness of death: the level
of calm and the level of understanding realities, knowing the
characteristic of death of each moment.

*****

Nina.






#127726	From: "Christine" <cjforsyth1@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:29 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dana and Greed	 christine_fo... 
 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> In Burma, when we make offerings to the monks, the monks always remind us to
recite verbally and also to keep in mind: "Nibbaana paccayo hotu" (let it be the
condition for the attainment of Nibbaana).  Anything short of that will be
"lobha." However, in one Burmese book, lobha cetasika is graded in three levels:
chanda, ta.nhaa, and upaadaana, according to the intensity of the craving. So
if, for example, one makes offerings with the expectation of fortunate rebirth
in the deva world, it may be graded as "chanda" or a very mild ta.nhaa. Anyway,
if making daana with the expectation of rebirth in deva world were an akusala
the Buddha would not have taught the six kathaas (which includes sagga-kathaa)
in gradual instruction or gradual training (anupubbi-sikkhaa).
>
> with metta and respect,
> Han

Dear Han,

Thank you for this information.  It gives me another perspective and something
to consider.

with metta
Chris


#127727	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:20 am 
Subject: Re: What I heard: momentary death.	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Nina

>>> -There are different levels of mindfulness of death: the level
of calm and the level of understanding realities, knowing the
characteristic of death of each moment

   Instead of death, could there instead be conditions for understanding the
characteristic of birth of each moment? Or would there always be clinging to it?
(bhava tanha, something like that?)

    Phil


#127728	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:45 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: momentary death.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Phil,
Op 11-nov-2012, om 23:20 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

> Instead of death, could there instead be conditions for
> understanding the characteristic of birth of each moment? Or would
> there always be clinging to it? (bhava tanha, something like that?)
------
N: The subject is different levels of marana sati. The momentary, the
conventional and then there is the final death of the arahat,
samucheda marana.
-----
Nina.





 	
AdChoices

#127729	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:59 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Dieter,
Op 11-nov-2012, om 18:08 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

> D: Nina , we agree about h the importance (forerunner ) of
> understanding.
> However , about the role of anapana sati. The point is not only that
> breath should be known as dhamma ( significant e.g. the relation with
> emotion) ,
> but the attention to it which keeps us in the present and hinders
> the mind
> to wander.
-------
N: I know what you mean: when having attention to breath one does not
think of other matters. But how is this attention, with kusala citta
or with attachment, even very subtle attachment? Understanding is
indispensable.
-------
> D:I recall that somebody mentioned that being mindful of the breath
> for 7
> consecutive days fullfils the stated possibility of enlightenment
> in one
> week
> (Maha Satipatthana Sutta) .
-------
N: Enlightenment cannot be attained without fully developed
understanding of all realities of one's life, including akusala cittas.
We have to consider carefully the Visuddhimagga re the different
tetrads and the commentary to the satipa.t.thaana sutta (transl. by
Soma Thera). You will see that not only samatha is being developed
but also insight, different stages of insight:

The fourth tetrad pertains to the contemplation of dhammas (mental
objects) in dhammas. We read in the Commentary to the Anapanasati
Sutta (translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka) about the explanations of the
words of the sutta:
<Having seen with understanding the abandoning of covetousness and
grief, he becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity>: here
covetousness is the hindrance of lust. By grief the hindrance of ill
will is pointed out. For this tetrad is stated by way of insight. And
contemplation of mental objects is sixfold... Of that contemplation,
the section on the hindrances is the beginning... Accordingly, he
said, <covetousness and grief> in order to point out the beginning of
the contemplation of mental objects. <The abandoning> (pahaana.m)
means it is the knowledge of abandoning, thus, <he abandons the
perception of permanence through the contemplation of impermanence>
that is intended...
N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to
more detachment from conditioned realities: fading away
(viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment
(pa.tinissagga). We read further on:
<That is why... bhikkhus>: because one who proceeds by the method,
<contemplating impemanence, I shall breathe in,>etc., is one who
looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with
understanding not only the mental objects beginning with the
hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental
objects stated under the heading of covetousness and grief.
Therefore, it should be understood that <on that occasion... a
bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in the mental objects.>

Nina: In the Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma, it is
stated that just as in the case of body, feeling and citta, the
mental objects should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent;
as being subject to dukkha; as anatta;  by way of turning away from
it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion
for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for
origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving
it up.
As we have seen, the hindrances are classified under the mental
objects, and they include also the khandhas, the sense-bases
(ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four Truths.
-------
Nina.







#127730	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:10 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: What I heard: momentary death.	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Nina

> > Instead of death, could there instead be conditions for
> > understanding the characteristic of birth of each moment? Or would
> > there always be clinging to it? (bhava tanha, something like that?)
> ------
> N: The subject is different levels of marana sati. The momentary, the
> conventional and then there is the final death of the arahat,
> samucheda marana.
> -----

     Ok. I was wondering if awareness of birth of each citta is also taught,
rather than the momentary death. But not important. Unless the awareness in
questuon is actually arisen, just a lot of thinking...

    phil


#127731	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:24 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 ptaus1 
 	
Hi Dieter,

> I think it is often overlooked that kusala / akusala are qualities of
samsara/D.O., i.e. still lokiya  .

Thanks. One of the things I don't quite understand is the relationship between
D.O. and mundane kusala cittas with panna of insight kind -  since at those
instances of kusala cittas, there is no ignorance, no craving, no clinging, and
then logically, no bhava conditioning, but then there is cetana, and if there is
a next life(s), that cetana will likely produce kusala vipaka. So, in a away
D.O. does not apply, but then it also does in a way...


> The moments of lokuttara /path consciousness however  are lokuttara ,
associated with the unconditioned,  nibbana .

This got me thinking, even moments of path consciousness (like in the example at
the start, also have no ignorance, no clinging, etc, but they do have cetana,
which I think still produces vipaka - albeit (according to abhidhamma) in the
very next moment, in the form of fruit consciousness. So again, D.O. doesn't
really apply, but then it kind of does...

Anyway, D.O. is a difficult subject, I'm just revising here.

Best wishes
pt


#127732	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:27 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 philofillet 
 	
Hi Pt

> So again, D.O. doesn't really apply, but then it kind of does...
>
> Anyway, D.O. is a difficult subject, I'm just revising here.

  Best steer clear, in my opinion. For modern Buddhists, D.O seems so deep and
fascinating, but it's just a plaything for lobha/moha...we have to
start where we are, with present realities understood to the degree that
understanding arises.

   As soon as someone mentions D.O, you can be sure that there is too much hunger
for deep understanding.

   Phil


#127733	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:34 pm 
Subject: Taking a break	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Nina, Sarah, Jon, others.


     I'll be taking a break until the Thailand trip, for the usual reasons. Look
forward to discussing with you there.

   Phil


#127734	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:49 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: momentary death.	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Hi, Phil (and Nina) -

In a message dated 11/12/2012 3:11:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
philco777@... writes:

Dear  Nina

> > Instead of death, could there instead be conditions for
> > understanding the characteristic of birth of each moment? Or  would
> > there always be clinging to it? (bhava tanha, something  like that?)
> ------
> N: The subject is different levels of  marana sati. The momentary, the
> conventional and then there is the  final death of the arahat,
> samucheda marana.
> -----

Ok.  I was wondering if awareness of birth of each citta is also taught,
rather  than the momentary death. But not important. Unless the awareness in
questuon  is actually arisen, just a lot of thinking...
-----------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I think your question is a very interesting one!  Mindfulness, when
strongly developed, would be aware of all aspects of cittas, I  presume, but I
suspect the emphasis on passing away aims at the cultivation of
disenchantment and letting go, whereas the noting of constant arising MIGHT, if 
the
mind is still strongly defiled, encourage the opposite. Just some  thoughts.
--------------------------------------------------------------



phil
============================
With metta,
Howard


Impermanence

/Thus  is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
bubble in a  stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp,
a
phantom and  a dream/

(From the Diamond Sutra)





#127735	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:56 pm 
Subject: The Questions: Nirvana	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members,

Do you know? The total solar eclipse is TOMORROW!!

The Questions Of King Milinda
[Translated ted by T.W.Rhys Davids]

#7. The king said: 'Venerable Nâgasena, do all men receive Nirvâna?'

'Not all, O king. But he who walks righteously, who admits those conditions
which ought to be admitted, perceives clearly those conditions which ought to be
clearly perceived, abandons those conditions which ought to be abandoned,
practises himself in those conditions which ought to be practised, realises
those conditions which ought to be realised--he receives Nirvâna.'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'

----------

#8. The king said: 'Venerable Nâgasena, does he who does not receive Nirvâna
know how happy a state Nirvâna is 1?'

'Yes, he knows it.'

'But how can he know that without his receiving Nirvâna?'

'Now what do you think, O king? Do those whose hands and feet have not been cut
off know how sad a thing it is to have them cut off?'

'Yes, Sir, that they know.'

'But how do they know it?'

'Well, by hearing the sound of the lamentation of those whose hands and feet
have been cut off, they know it.'

[70] 'Just so, great king, it is by hearing the glad words of those who have
seen Nirvâna, that they who have not received it know how happy a state it is.'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'

************
yawares/sirikanya


#127736	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:23 am 
Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 jonoabb 
 	
Hi Jagkrit (and Nina)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Nina
>
> >N:  When we were in Kandy we payed respect to the Buddha's Tooth relic in
> > the "Dawada Maligawa", the Temple of the Sacred Tooth.
>
> > When we pay  respect to the relics of the Buddha, kusala cittas may arise,
but
> > also akusala cittas are bound to arise.
>
> > We may have attachment to the  idea that there is something left of the
Buddha.
>
> > Paying respect to the  Buddha's relics is only meaningful if we recollect
his excellent
> > qualities. The relics can remind us directly of his excellent
> > qualities because they are what remained of his body, the body of a
> > Buddha endowed with thirtytwo bodily characteristics each one of
> > which was conditioned by kamma.
>
> -------------------
>
> JJ: This is so true. Most of the time, when most of people pay respect to the
Buddha's relic, if they have little knowledge of Buddha's teaching, akusala
arises. Most of Thai people including me, pay respect to the Buddha's relic with
faith not with panna, expecting to gain kusala from paying respect. Sometime, we
wish for something while paying respect.
>
> It is impossible to recall any of his excellent qualities (Buddha nusati)
without any knowledge and understanding of his teaching.
> ===============

J:  I agree with your comments.  As you know, the standard recitation of the
virtues of the Buddha lists out the epithets by which the Buddha was known --
ending with the terms 'sugato' ('well-gone') and 'lokavidu' ('seer of worlds')
-- without further elaboration, so unless there has been prior reflection on
these terms, with understanding, the 'paying respect' is pretty much meaningless
(and, in addition, is likely to be mere rite and ritual).

Jon

PS  Was glad you were able to make it to Hanoi, if for only the first few days.


#127737	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:15 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Taking a break	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Philip,
Op 12-nov-2012, om 12:34 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

> I'll be taking a break until the Thailand trip, for the usual
> reasons. Look forward to discussing with you there.
-----
N: You may break your intention of taking a break :-))
Nina.





#127738	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:23 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: momentary death.	 nilovg 
 	
Hi Howard,
I guess you still have electricity? Glad to hear about your
neighbours, in what way did they help?Always good to hear about
someone else's kusala.
Op 12-nov-2012, om 13:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> Mindfulness, when
> strongly developed, would be aware of all aspects of cittas, I
> presume, but I
> suspect the emphasis on passing away aims at the cultivation of
> disenchantment and letting go...
------
N: Right. In Kh Sujin's Survey we read about the stages of insight
(Ch 30):

<The fourth vipassanå ñåna is knowledge of the arising
and falling away of nåma and rúpa, udayabbaya ñåùa.
Vipassanå ñåùa of the third stage realizes the rapid
succession of nåmas and rúpas as they arise and fall away.
However, at this stage paññå is not yet keen enough to see
the danger and disadvantages of the arising and falling away,
so that there can be detachment from them. The immediate
arising of a new dhamma after the falling away of the former
dhamma covers up the danger of the arising and falling away.
Paññå should become keener so that the following stages of
insight can be reached. ..
   The fifth stage of vipassanå ñåna is knowledge of
dissolution, bhanga ñåna.
Even though the fourth stage of vipassanå ñåna clearly
realizes the arising and falling away of one characteristic of
nåma and of rúpa at a time, clinging to them is still very
persistent. Clinging to all realities has been accumulated for
an endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death.
Ignorance and clinging to the concept of self are like firmly
implanted roots that are hard to pull up. Paññå has to be
developed more thoroughly through satipatthåna. There
must be awareness and investigation again and again of the
arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa which was already
realized at the fourth stage of insight. Paññå should
investigate more thoroughly the falling away of the nåmas
and rúpas that appear. Then it can be seen that dhammas
that fall away cannot be any refuge. Through the
development of satipatthåna paññå becomes keener and
more accomplished so that there are the right conditions for
the fifth stage of vipassanå ñåna, knowledge of dissolution,
bhanga ñåna. This stage of vipassanå clearly realizes that
nåma and rúpa that arise and fall away cannot be any refuge,
that they cannot give any security.>

-------
Nina.





#127739	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:27 am 
Subject: The Perfections developed in Daily Life, Intro, no 1.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,
   April 1980

Introduction

Iti’pi so Bhagavå Arahaÿ, Sammåsambuddho

It is for this reason that he is the Blessed One,

The Worthy One, Fully Enlightened One.

During our pilgrimage in India we recited these words many times when
we walked around the Asoka pillar in Lumbini which marks the Buddha's
birthplace, around the Bodhitree in Bodhgaya where he attained
enlightenment, around the Stupa in Sarnath where he preached his
first sermon and around the Stupa in Kusinara which commemorates his
parinibbåna.

It was the fourth time that I visited the holy places. In Calcutta I
joined a group of Thai friends who had organised this journey. Two
monks, Bhante Dhammadharo and Bhante Guttasíla, had come from
Thailand together with Sujin Boriharnwanaket and other Thai friends.
Sarah (from England) and Pinna (from Singapore) had also joined this
group which consisted of nineteen people.

When we were staying in the Thai temple in Bodhgaya Bhante
Dhammadharo said that we should find out for ourselves the reason why
the Buddha attained enlightenment. ‘It is for this reason that he is
the Blessed One’. What did the Buddha discover? He discovered the
truth of all conditioned phenomena and when he attained enlightenment
he experienced the unconditioned reality, nibbåna. He had developed
the perfections, påramís, during innumerable lives as a Bodhisatta, a
being destined to become a Buddha. During his last life he attained
enlightenment under the Bodhi-tree and then all his defilements were
eradicated. His wisdom had matured to the omniscience of a
Sammåsambuddha who was foremost in wisdom and virtue.

Before the unconditioned reality, nibbãna, can be experienced, the
conditioned phenomena which arise in daily life have to be known as
they really are. Do we see phenomena as they really are? What appears
at this moment? Is there seeing? Is there a notion of "I see”?  We do
not create our seeing, it arises because of its own conditions. It
performs the function of seeing just for a moment and then it falls
away immediately, we cannot cause it to stay. Seeing which arises
because of conditions is beyond control, it is not self. The object
seeing sees is only visible object, that which appears through the
eyes. We do not see people and things, these do not appear through
the eyesense. People and things are concepts we form up in our mind.
In the absolute sense there are only mental phenomena, nåma, and
physical phenomena, rúpa. There is no "I" who hears, it is hearing
which hears and then falls away immediately to be succeeded by
another experience. At each moment there is another experience, a
moment of consciousness which experiences an object and then falls
away. Objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors of
eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind.
--------
Nina





#127740	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:43 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vietnam 8 - last afternoon in Hanoi	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Sarah,
We can't hear this enough. Thank you for the report, so good to hear
about the friendship with the Vietnamese students.
Nina.

Op 10-nov-2012, om 0:16 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

> There is so much to understand about what is taken for my life and
> the others' lives. The next moment can be the death moment. Dhammas
> are uncontrollable. This is how anatta can be understood -
> understanding how the dhamma arising now is uncontrollable.
> Everyone lives in this world very temporarily.





#127741	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:00 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: momentary death.	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Hi, Nina -

     I appreciate this detailed reply of yours!

In a message dated 11/12/2012 9:25:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Hi  Howard,
I guess you still have electricity?
-----------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Yes, and internet, phone, and TV. (Fingers crossed!  ;-)
---------------------------------------------------

Glad to  hear about your
neighbours, in what way did they help?Always good to hear  about
someone else's kusala.
---------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Mostly they gave warm commiseration! (Really  genuine caring from
people in the area even from those whom we hardly knew and  some whom we didn't
know at all!) Nearby friends who never lost power had us and  others over
twice to their house, once for a full dinner! (Once we had power  restored, we
took them out to a nice seafood restaurant as a "thank you".) We  also had
many offers to sleep over, take hot showers, and so on - but we managed  on
our own with the use of our portable generator which was available much of
the time. (On the night of the nor'easter we couldn't use the generator at
all,  and the house temperature dropped very low by morning.)
--------------------------------------------------------------


Op  12-nov-2012, om 13:49 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...)
het volgende  geschreven:

> Mindfulness, when
> strongly developed, would be  aware of all aspects of cittas, I
> presume, but I
> suspect the  emphasis on passing away aims at the cultivation of
> disenchantment and  letting go...
------
N: Right. In Kh Sujin's Survey we read about the  stages of insight
(Ch 30):

<The fourth vipassanå ñåna is  knowledge of the arising
and falling away of nåma and rúpa, udayabbaya  ñåùa.
Vipassanå ñåùa of the third stage realizes the rapid
succession of  nåmas and rúpas as they arise and fall away.
However, at this stage paññå  is not yet keen enough to see
the danger and disadvantages of the arising  and falling away,
so that there can be detachment from them. The  immediate
arising of a new dhamma after the falling away of the  former
dhamma covers up the danger of the arising and falling  away.
-----------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Yes indeed!
------------------------------------------------


Paññå should become keener so that the following stages  of
insight can be reached. ..
The fifth stage of vipassanå ñåna is  knowledge of
dissolution, bhanga ñåna.
Even though the fourth stage of  vipassanå ñåna clearly
realizes the arising and falling away of one  characteristic of
nåma and of rúpa at a time, clinging to them is still  very
persistent. Clinging to all realities has been accumulated for
an  endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death.
Ignorance and clinging  to the concept of self are like firmly
implanted roots that are hard to  pull up. Paññå has to be
developed more thoroughly through satipatthåna.  There
must be awareness and investigation again and again of the
arising  and falling away of nåma and rúpa which was already
realized at the fourth  stage of insight. Paññå should
investigate more thoroughly the falling away  of the nåmas
and rúpas that appear. Then it can be seen that  dhammas
that fall away cannot be any refuge. Through the
development of  satipatthåna paññå becomes keener and
more accomplished so that there are  the right conditions for
the fifth stage of vipassanå ñåna, knowledge of  dissolution,
bhanga ñåna. This stage of vipassanå clearly realizes  that
nåma and rúpa that arise and fall away cannot be any refuge,
that  they cannot give any security.>

-------
Nina.
===================================
     I hope you are gaining more and more peace, Nina,  my dear friend.

With metta,
Howard


Seamless  Interdependence

/A change in anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)




#127742	From: "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:03 am 
Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 jagkrit2012 
 	
Dear Jon

> J:  I agree with your comments.  As you know, the standard recitation of the
virtues of the Buddha lists out the epithets by which the Buddha was known --
ending with the terms 'sugato' ('well-gone') and 'lokavidu' ('seer of worlds')
-- without further elaboration, so unless there has been prior reflection on
these terms, with understanding, the 'paying respect' is pretty much meaningless
(and, in addition, is likely to be mere rite and ritual).
========

JJ: Exactly, and T.A. Sujin mentioned a lot about taking the Buddha as refuge in
Viet Nam discussion. How one takes the Buddha as refuge when he has no
understanding of the Buddha's teaching. Only reciting as the standard rite and
ritual as you said.

I'm glad to be able to join you and Sarah in Viet Nam discussion even for fews
day. I think if I listen to T.A. Sujin and friends during the discussion and be
able to understand dhamma even just very little, it is very worth it for the
trip.

By the way, I so admire and anumodhana your effort of recording and editing all
dhamma discussion for our friends to listen and learn more from T.A. Sujin.
Dhamma tana is the most precious tana of all.

Thank you very much

Jagkrit

Ps. waiting to listen the Viet Nam discussion in DSG and looking forward to
seeing you in January very soon.


#127743	From: "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:28 am 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 8 - last afternoon in Hanoi	 jagkrit2012 
 	
Dear Sarah

Thank you very much for your dhamma series debrief during Hanoi discussion. A
lot of valuable explanation of Q&A in the discussion reminds and affirm more
understanding of dhamma.
=========

>S: Very heartfelt farewells and appreciation from some of our new friends we'll
be leaving in Hanoi. As our mini-bus drove away, we could see them standing by
the side of the road, holding their scooter and motor-bike helmets and waving. A
beautiful place with many wonderful people showing such a keen interest in
finding out more about the Teachings.
=========

JJ: I get the picture you describe and admit that our Vietnamese friends are so
enthusiastic and so interested in learn dhamma with T.A. Sujin and you. I had a
feeling that Hanoi discussion was very great and this was the beginning of
fruitful dhamma discussion which shall be held more discussion there in the
future. Do you agree?

This discussion was kusala vipaka for us and especially our friends in Hanoi who
had a chance to accumulate right understanding from T.A. Sujin and you. This was
great hearing (Savana nutariya)

I'm looking forward to seeing you in January very soon.

Thank you and anumodhana

Jagkrit


#127744	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:29 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Jon and Jagkrit,
Op 12-nov-2012, om 16:03 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven:

> By the way, I so admire and anumodhana your effort of recording and
> editing all dhamma discussion for our friends to listen and learn
> more from T.A. Sujin. Dhamma tana is the most precious tana of all.
------
N: Yes, anumodana. I listen every night and I get a lot out of it. It
helps me through a difficult time.
Nina.





#127745	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:34 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: momentary death.	 nilovg 
 	
Hi Howard,
Nice to hear about what the neighbours did. It gives others a chance
for anumodana dana. That is a way of dana too.
Op 12-nov-2012, om 16:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> I hope you are gaining more and more peace, Nina, my dear friend.
------
N: It is very momentary, cittas change from moment to moment.
I wish peace could stay on, but it cannot.
Thank you for your very kind wishes,
Nina.





#127746	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:52 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 moellerdieter 
 	
Dear Nina,

you wrote:

N: I know what you mean: when having attention to breath one does not think of
other matters. But how is this attention, with kusala citta
or with attachment, even very subtle attachment? Understanding is indispensable.

D: it is !
Yes: when having attention to breath one does not think of other matters.
Everybody can check that for oneself.
Which means: mental  formations (sankhara khandha) change from activity (towards
the senses media) to the  passivity of observation on a single object, the
breath.
The continuous  observation , not influence , of in - and out breathing leads
ideally to the  ...  citta associated  with the cetasikas sati and tranqullity .
And at this state of consciousness the mind can be directed for the benefit of
vipassana , i.e. the 4 frames of mindfulness : body,feeling,mind and mind
objects .   In that way I understand the (introduction to )  Maha Satipatthana
Sutta.



-----
> D:I recall that somebody mentioned that being mindful of the breath > for 7>
consecutive days fullfils the stated possibility of enlightenment
> in one > week > (Maha Satipatthana Sutta) .
-------
N: Enlightenment cannot be attained without fully developed understanding of all
realities of one's life, including akusala cittas.

D: well , each school has its own version of 'cannot be attained without ......'
and there are plenty of canonical  sources available  (e.g. not without Jhana) .
These provide the possibility of different approaches to the Dhamma.

N:We have to consider carefully the Visuddhimagga re the different tetrads and
the commentary to the satipa.t.thaana sutta (transl. by
Soma Thera). You will see that not only samatha is being developed but also
insight, different stages of insight:

The fourth tetrad pertains to the contemplation of dhammas (mental objects) in
dhammas. We read in the Commentary to the Anapanasati
Sutta (translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka) about the explanations of the words of
the sutta:
<Having seen with understanding the abandoning of covetousness and grief, he
becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity>: here
covetousness is the hindrance of lust. By grief the hindrance of ill will is
pointed out. For this tetrad is stated by way of insight. And
contemplation of mental objects is sixfold... Of that contemplation, the section
on the hindrances is the beginning... Accordingly, he
said, <covetousness and grief> in order to point out the beginning of the
contemplation of mental objects. <The abandoning> (pahaana.m)
means it is the knowledge of abandoning, thus, <he abandons the perception of
permanence through the contemplation of impermanence>
that is intended...

D: the point of equanimity ,  which anapanasati may prepare respectively keep
,is the base to to direct the mind to a -e.g.- mental object .

N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to more
detachment from conditioned realities: fading away
(viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment
(pa.tinissagga). We read further on:
<That is why... bhikkhus>: because one who proceeds by the method,
<contemplating impemanence, I shall breathe in,>etc., is one who
looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with understanding
not only the mental objects beginning with the
hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental objects
stated under the heading of covetousness and grief.
Therefore, it should be understood that <on that occasion... a bhikkhu abides
contemplating mental objects in the mental objects.>

Nina: In the Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma, it is stated that
just as in the case of body, feeling and citta, the
mental objects should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being
subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from
it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it;
with thoughts making for cessation and not making for
origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up.


As we have seen, the hindrances are classified under the mental objects, and
they include also the khandhas, the sense-bases
(ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four Truths.

D: I think we have talked about why the hindrances are included under (
thecontemplation of) mental objects and not the (states of) mind  but can't
remember the conclusion (?).

with Metta Dieter



#127747	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:43 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi Pt,

you wrote:

(D:I think it is often overlooked that kusala / akusala are qualities of
samsara/D.O., i.e. still lokiya .)

Pt:Thanks. One of the things I don't quite understand is the relationship
between D.O. and mundane kusala cittas with panna of insight kind - since at
those instances of kusala cittas, there is no ignorance, no craving, no
clinging, and then logically, no bhava conditioning, but then there is cetana,
and if there is a next life(s), that cetana will likely produce kusala vipaka.
So, in a away D.O. does not apply, but then it also does in a way...

D: Ignorance/avijja  is defined by not knowing (having penetrated) the 4 Noble
Truths.   Its abolishment by its replacement with panna is a process leading to
enlightenment. Until then D.O. is 'working ' ( avijja  conditions sankhara
(kamma formation/volition/cetana) conditions vinnana (=citta) conditions rupa -
nama (= cetasika : perception ,feeling and mental formation) ..etc. . Vinnana
and  nama rupa stand for  the 5 khandhas.
Kusala / akusala  is introduced by Abhidhamma in principle by  the cetasikas of
mental formation  (sankhara khandha) , i.e. still samsara because
avijja -sankhara isn't touched and the conditioning going on.


(D:> The moments of lokuttara /path consciousness however are lokuttara ,
associated with the unconditioned, nibbana .

Pt:This got me thinking, even moments of path consciousness (like in the example
at the start, also have no ignorance, no clinging, etc, but they do have cetana,
which I think still produces vipaka - albeit (according to abhidhamma) in the
very next moment, in the form of fruit consciousness. So again, D.O. doesn't
really apply, but then it kind of does...
D: the moments of path consciousness , occuring at the entrance of the 4 states
of nobility , is   -so far as I understand Abhidhamma- a moment of the
unconditioned , i.e. beyond the conditioned (D.O.) , i.e. lokuttara.
For us wordlings the chain is operating , although this or that becoming (bhava)
may not take place (birth /jati).
Please note that Abhidhamma introduced the qualities of kusala /akusala to D.O.
.. respective  suttas are without which makes it not easier for understanding.  
It is as well necessary to have in mind that D.O. refers to moment and all
moments in life (jati here and now and jati from the mother's womb)


Pt:Anyway, D.O. is a difficult subject, I'm just revising here.

D:  yes , the Buddha told that already Ananda .....;-)
a challenge of Dhamma investigation to everybody  and to understand the dynamics
of this very life .

with Metta Dieter





#127748	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:47 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Herman,


-----
> H: Kamma plays no role in Dhamma. Have I paraphrased you correctly?
-----

KH: It depends on what you mean by kamma. I suspect you mean something over
which you have a degree of control. If that is what you mean then, yes, you have
paraphrased me correctly.

Ken H


#127749	From: Tam Bach <tambach@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:16 pm 
Subject: Re: Return to Hong Kong	 tambach 
 	
Dear Sarah,

We were just 100 meters away as you were writing theses lines...Indeed it has
been a wonderful week, most precious for us to hear such truth about the Dhamma.
I think my friends will soon show up on DSG.

We are so glad you and Jon has made it to Hanoi and assisted Ajhan to share the
Dhamma with us. Great kusala and we can't thank enough for that. Yesterday I
listened again to the recorded discussions and it reminded me of Jon's patience
and dedication, much appreciated by all of us.

Kachana wrote me a short e-mail saying Ajhan and all our Thai friends are
enjoying their stay in Sapa, good weather and beautiful scenery. I hope one day
we can have a Dhamma trip with you both in the middle of the terrace rice-fields
there...

Looking forward to January,

Anumodana and metta,

Tam



#127750	From: Tam Bach <tambach@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:22 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 8 - last afternoon in Hanoi	 tambach 
 	
Dear JJ,

I haven't have yet the chance to thank for your presence in Hanoi in the
discussions, even though for a short time.

Indeed we learnt so much during the last two weeks from Ajhan, Sarah and all
others, and it is a totally new direction for many among us. I also do hope more
discussions can be held in Vietnam in the future and that more Vietnamese will
have the chance to have their traditional views and understanding challenged.

Anumodana, and see you again in January!

Tam



#127751	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:49 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Dieter,

----
<. . .>
>  D: I wonder whether you understand my point as explained above
----

KH: No I don't understand your interpretation of Dependant Origination. But we
have strayed off-topic, so let's not worry about that now.

-----------
<. . .>
> D: I recall extensive discussions
I understand that there is lokiya =the mundane (daily life) and the
super-mundane (the highest of mundane = D.O. )
and lokuttara , the supra-mundane ( the beyond of the condtioned=nibbana) ..
------------

KH:  No, that's still not it. Please consult Nyanaponika's Buddhist Dictionary.

-----------------------
<. . .>
>>> D: I wonder why it is so difficult to understand that there are two levels
to express the truth. .

>> KH: No matter how it is expressed the truth always remains the same: there is
no self; there are only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas over which there
is no control.

> D: but this truth needs not only to be understood but penetrated and realized
, up to then ( last fetter mana/conceit) the ignorance /delusion of self is
prevalent. ( For example :a mirage is taken for real until it is discerned as
such).
------------------------

KH: I think you are saying there needs to be a practice apart from right
understanding. That is, there needs to be a ritual satipatthana.

--------
<. . .>
> D: starting with the training of the precepts .. nothing to do /not to do ?
--------

KH: There can *never* be anything to do. Even conventional teachings (piano
lessons, for example) cannot be deliberately put into practice.

There can be an *illusion* of deliberate piano practice, but nothing more than
that.

This rule applies even more strictly to vipassana practice (satipatthana). There
can't even be an illusion of deliberate satipatthana.

What is mean is, there isn't a ritual that can symbolise satipatthana. Sitting
cross-legged, for example, is no more symbolic of satipatthana than is walking
or eating etc. (see the Satipatthana Sutta).

------------------
<. . .>
>> KH: I think we have established beyond doubt that the two perspectives are
totally at odds with each
other. They require conflicting interpretations of virtually every point taught
in the Tipitaka.

>> D: not conflicting , Ken .You simply cannot deny that the Buddha spoke of two
kinds of right understanding ..as quoted before.
-------------------

KH: I did my best to deny your interpretation of that quote. I said, even though
the *degree* of right understanding does vary in practice, there is only *one*
right understanding of the Dhamma.

-------------------------------
> D: Likewise classical physics and quantum physics are only contradicting
eachother (in many points) as far as it is overlooked that each is valid in its
own domain.
--------------------------------

KH: The domain of conventional understanding is outside the domain of the
Dhamma. Conventional wisdom  can never elucidate the Dhamma in any way. (Except
sometimes by way of simile, of course.)

Ken H


#127752	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:45 pm 
Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Rapture 1	 ashkenn2k 
 	
Dear all 

Dispeller of Delusion

(4) Rapture 

1342. But the arising of the rapture enlightenment factor comes about thus:
There are states productive of the rapture enlightenment factor, bhikkhus. Wise
bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of the
unarisen rapture enlightenment factor, or leads to the growth, increase,
development and perfection of the arisen rapture enlightenment factor' (S v
66). Herein, states productive of the rapture enlightenment factor are rapture
itself. [282] The bringing to mind which arouses that is called wise bringing to
mind.

1343. Furthermore, eleven things lead to the arising of the
rapture enlightenment factor: (I) the recollection of the Enlightened One, the
recollections (2) of the Law, (3) of the Order, (4) of virtuous conduct, (5) of
generosity, (6) of deities, (7) the recollection of peace, (8) avoidance of
rough persons, (9) cultivation of refined persons, (10) reviewing discourses
that inspire confidence, (11) being resolved thereon.

1344. (1) For the rapture enlightenment factor arises in one who recollects the
qualities of the Enlightened One, and it pervades his whole body up to access
concentration.

1345. (2), (3) Also in one who recollects the qualities of the Law and of the
Order.

1346. (4) Also in one who reflects on the fourfold purity of conduct preserved
unbroken over a long time; and also in a layman who reviews the ten kinds of
virtuous conduct and the five kinds of virtuous conduct.

1347. (5) Also in one who reviews generosity, after giving good food to
companions in the life of purity during a time of scarcity,  [thinking:] "Thus
we gave"; and also in a layman who reviews gifts given to the virtuous in such
times [of scarcity).


KC


#127753	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:50 pm 
Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Rapture 2	 ashkenn2k 
 	
Dear all

Dispeller of Delusion 

1348. (6) Also in one who reviews the presence in himself of such qualities as
those, possessed of which, [others] have reached the divine state.

1349. (7) Also in one who reviews thus: 'The defilements suppressed by the
attainments do not occur for sixty or seventy year*

1350. (8) Also in one who avoids rough persons who, being corrupt and rough in
showing disrespect on seeing shrines, the Wisdom Tree and elders are, through
lack of trust and love for the Enlightened One and so on, like the dirt on a
mule's back.

1351. (9) Also in one who cultivates persons who are full of trust, gentle and
loving in regard to the Enlightened One and so on 

1352. (10) Also in one who reviews trust-inspiring discourses which illustrate
the qualities of the Three Jewels

1353. (11) And it arises also in one whose mind tends, inclines and leans
thereto for the purpose of arousing rapture while standing, sitting, etc.

1354. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path that there comes to
be the perfection through development of that [rapture enlightenment factor]
which has arisen.



KC


#127754	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:22 pm 
Subject: Ten Volition 3 - Unwholesome Acts - Killing 2	 ashkenn2k 
 	
Dear all

The Brahmajala Sutta and its commentaries by BB pg 113 - 115

Sub.Cy. Query: When formations are subject to constant cessation from moment to
moment, who kills and who is killed? If it is said that the continuum of
consciousness and its concomitants kills and is killed, this answer has to be
rejected. For such a continuum is immaterial, and because it is immaterial it is
incapable of inflicting any harm by cutting, breaking, etc., nor can it be
harmed itself. If it is said that "killing" and "being killed" apply to the
material continuum, this alternative too must be rejected. For the material
continuum is devoid of consciousness, like a block of wood, and so the
destruction of life by cutting, etc., can no more apply to the body than to a
lifeless corpse.

Again, the means of destroying life, such as striking a blow, etc., must apply
to formations either in the past, the future, or the present. But it is
impossible that the means could apply to past or future formations, since those
do not exist (at the time the blow is struck). In the case of present
formations, any application of the means would be useless. For the present
formations, due to their momentary nature, are subject to complete cessation
anyway, and hence are already heading towards their own destruction by
themselves. Since, therefore, their destruction occurs without any extraneous
cause (but follows from their nature), death would not be caused by the striking
of blows or by other means. Because the formations are devoid of personal
initiative (nirihaka), to whom do the means of killing belong? And who should be
bound by the kamma of destroying life if, due to momentariness, the intention of
killing breaks up at the very same
  time it arises, and does not last up to the time of the act's completion?


Reply: The "killer" is the assemblage of formations conventionally called a
"being," containing the aforementioned volition of killing. That which "is
killed" by him is the aggregation of material and immaterial dhammas that would
have been capable of arising (in continued succession) if the aforementioned
means of killing had not been applied, but which now continues as a bare
procession (of material dhammas) conventionally termed "dead," deprived of vital
warmth, consciousness, and the life-faculty due to the application of the
means of killing by the killer. Or else (that which "is killed" may be
defined as) the continuum of consciousness and its concomitants alone. Although
the mental continuum does not itself form the actual object of the means of
killing (since the victim's body is the object), still the notion of
life-destruction remains valid (even with this definition).   For, in the
five-constituent existence, the mental continuum
  occurs in dependence upon the material continuum; so when an enemy applies the
means of cutting off the life-faculty to the material continuum in such a way
that the successive arising of the vital material states linked up with and
supporting the correlative mental continuum is impaired, then the disruption (of
the mental continuum) takes place (and the being is said to be killed). 

Again, the destruction of life is not without a specific cause, nor is the
application of the means of killing useless. Death is not without a specific
cause:.(1) because if the means of killing are applied to the
present formations, the aggregation of formations due to arise in
immediate succession to them will not arise; (2) because in the present context
it is not the "momentary death" of the momentary formations that is intended by
the designation "death"; and (3) because the death of the life-continuity (which
is meant here) does occur through specific causes, as explained above.
Therefore, death is not causeless. Nor are the means of destroying life void of
agency {katturahita). Though formations lack personal initiative, nevertheless,
the conventional designation of agency is applicable to causes that are
effective through their contiguity and are fixed in their capacity to give
results adequate to themselves, just as in the
  statements "the lamp illuminates" and "the moon brings in the night" (agency is
ascribed to the lamp and to the moon).

The act of destroying life must be recognized to pertain not only to the
aggregation of consciousness and mental concomitants existing simultaneously
with the intention of killing, but must also be admitted to apply to the (entire
sequence of states) that endures by way of (the unity and individuality of) the
continuum. Just as the accomplishment  of activity is seen in the case of lamps,
etc., which likewise exist by way of continuity, so too there certainly does
exist one who is bound by the kamma of destroying life.

The same method of investigation may, with due alterations, be applied in the
case of taking what is not given, etc., as well. 

KC


#127755	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:28 pm 
Subject: Ten Volition 3 - Unwholesome Acts - Taken what is not given	 ashkenn2k 
 	
Dear all

Commentary to Right View

Taking what is not given (adinnadana): the carrying off of others' goods,
stealing, robbery, is what is meant. Herein, "what is not given" is another's
possession, which the other may use as he likes
without incurring penalty or blame. "Taking what is not given" is the volition
to steal on the part of one who is aware, in respect of another's possession,
that it is another's possession, and which (volition) initiates activity
resulting in the taking of that thing.

That (taking of what is not given) is less blameworthy when the other's property
is of low value, and more blameworthy when it is of high value. Why? Because of
the high value of the object (stolen). When the value of the objects is equal,
the act is more blameworthy when the object belongs to one of outstanding
qualities, and less blameworthy when the object belongs to one who, in
comparison, is inferior with respect to moral qualities.


There are five constituents of this act: another's possession, awareness that it
is another's possession, the mind to steal, the activity, and the carrying off
(of the object) thereby.

There are six means: one's own person, etc. (as for killing).


And these (acts of stealing) may be classed, according to the way in which they
occur, by way of the following: taking by theft, by force, by concealment, by
stratagem, by fraud. This here is in brief; the details, however, are given in
the Samantapasadika.


KC


#127756	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:20 pm 
Subject: The Perfections developed in Daily Life, Intro, no 2.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

When we were in the bus in Calcutta Bhante Dhammadharo reminded me
that in the absolute sense there are no people, we are alone. He
spoke into my taperecorder the following message for my husband who
had encouraged me so much to undertake this pilgrimage:

“There is nobody there and nobody here. There is not Lodewijk all
alone in the Hague and all of us here having a trip in Calcutta.
There has only ever been, and only is, and can be, just different
moments of experiencing an object, only for a moment, and then there
is the next moment of experiencing another object. All alone,
everybody completely alone, no matter how many other people we think
there are around us the whole time. And if we think that we are
surrounded by other people, nice or not nice, we are really deluding
ourselves. We have to realize that in the absolute sense there is
nothing comforting about thinking that there are people all around
us. There is nothing comforting even about thinking, 'I am happy all
by myself '. There are just empty phenomena, one after another. It is
either the phenomenon which experiences, nåma, or it is the
phenomenon which does not experience, rúpa. Both of them are empty.
There is nothing reliable there, there is nothing worthwhile there.
It is just the same old thing, life after life, moment after moment.
In every life, just like now. So, if while we are here, we have a lot
of Dhamma talk but we don’t remember the truth about the phenomena of
our life we are not doing the best we can. If you have not much
chance for a Dhamma talk, but you are learning honestly to know the
phenomena of your life as they are, then that is what really helps.
We might not always like to learn about them, but that is what counts
most. So I hope and trust that the fundamental understanding of the
things I have just been talking about is there and that it is
growing. I hope that based on this understanding there are now and
will be more and more in the future moments of detachment from the
reality which appears.”

I remarked that, although I understand in theory that there are no
people, only nåma and rúpa, I find it difficult to realize this in my
daily life. However, it is right understanding which brings
detachment from the notion of people and beings. When we only think
about nåma and rúpa there will not be detachment. The nåma and rúpa
which appear now can be the object of mindfulness and in this way the
direct knowledge of realities can be developed. The Buddha could
attain enlightenment because he developed for innumerable lives
direct understanding of seeing which appears at the present moment,
of visible object which appears at the present moment, of all
realities which appear at the present moment. Direct understanding of
realities can only be developed now.

If the Buddha had not attained enlightenment and taught us the truth
of all realities we would live in complete darkness, not knowing the
way to develop right understanding, not knowing what is right and
what is wrong. It is a blessing that the Buddha taught us the way to
develop right understanding. It is a blessing that there still is
opportunity to hear the Dhamma "which only becomes manifest at rare
intervals covering immeasurable aeons" [1]
-------
[1] Subcommentary, Dígha Nikaya, translated by Ven. Bodhi,
B.P.S.Kandy, Sri Lanka.

-------
Nina.

.



#127757	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:13 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 2 Sabbaasava Sutta: All the Taints (5)	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Han,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

> Thank you very much for your kind comments.
> I respect your opinion.
> Whether I can follow your kind advice or not is another matter.
>
> For example,
> You read all of these to be read in the light of the development of
satipa.t.thaana.
> For me, it is not so most of the time. The thought of satipa.t.thaana does not
even enter my mind while I am reading most of the books.
....
S: It's the same for all of us. Most of the time we think of people and
situations and things 'to be done'. However, we can be reminded that no matter
how we are used to thinking, in fact there are only conditioned realities.
Therefore it's not so much a matter of following any advice, but of beginning to
understand (theoretically in the beginning) that seeing, hearing, siila and any
other conditioned realities cannot be made to arise by will or prevented from
arising when there are the right conditions in place.
....
>
> You said [Adhi virtue (siila), only developed through the understanding of
present realities.]
> For me, it is difficult to understand the "present realities".
....
S: Again, difficult for everyone because of all the accumulated ignorance.

Still, I think we can begin to appreciate that at this moment there is just
seeing, visible object, thinking and other realities - no 'me' at all who
experiences anything or for whom it is easy or difficult in reality.
...
>
> Nevertheless, I know it is a good advice when I see one.
> If I cannot follow that good advice, it is my own fault, my own loss!
....
S: Not anyone's fault - just conditions at different moments now for seeing or
hearing to be followed by thinking with ignorance and attachment (as usual) or
occasionally by understanding and wise reflection on dhammas, not-self.

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127758	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:20 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 egberdina 
 	
Hi KenH,

On 13 November 2012 10:47, Ken H <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Herman,
>
> -----
> > H: Kamma plays no role in Dhamma. Have I paraphrased you correctly?
> -----
>
> KH: It depends on what you mean by kamma. I suspect you mean something
> over which you have a degree of control. If that is what you mean then,
> yes, you have paraphrased me correctly.
>
>
At the risk of appearing harsh, could I ask you to, rather than wriggle, or
make innuendo's about what I probably mean by kamma, just tell me what you
mean by kamma?

That would just get straight to the point of my question.

You could however fruitfully anticipate future questions, and already bear
in mind when answering whether you actually believe that kamma is somehow
vipaka.





--
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




 	
AdChoices

#127759	From: "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:34 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 8 - last afternoon in Hanoi	 jagkrit2012 
 	
Dear Tam

I very much appreciate your hard work to organise this Hanoi dhamma discussion.
This discussion could not be possible without your and your friend's effort and
especially your excellent translation. It is great kusala to all friends in
Hanoi to learn and understand more in dhamma teaching of the Buddha by T.A.
Sujin because right view is the very important beginning when studying dhamma.

Again thank you very much to you and our friends, who kindly arranged this
dhamma discussion in Hanoi. I do hope that there will be more discussion in
Hanoi again every year if possible.

I'm looking forward to seeing you and dhamma friends here in January

Thank you and anumodhana

Jagkrit


#127760	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:34 pm 
Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 jonoabb 
 	
Hi Jagkrit

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Jon
>
> > J:  I agree with your comments.  As you know, the standard recitation of the
virtues of the Buddha lists out the epithets by which the Buddha was known --
ending with the terms 'sugato' ('well-gone') and 'lokavidu' ('seer of worlds')
-- without further elaboration, so unless there has been prior reflection on
these terms, with understanding, the 'paying respect' is pretty much meaningless
(and, in addition, is likely to be mere rite and ritual).
> ========
>
> JJ: Exactly, and T.A. Sujin mentioned a lot about taking the Buddha as refuge
in Viet Nam discussion. How one takes the Buddha as refuge when he has no
understanding of the Buddha's teaching. Only reciting as the standard rite and
ritual as you said.
> ===============

J:  Yes, there was a lot of mention in Vietnam of going for refuge to the
Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, and especially of how this occurs naturally at times
of reflecting on the teachings, when there is an appreciation of the Dhamma or
of the way in which it has been explained by the Buddha.

Thus, going for refuge occurring naturally and not by way of a 'set piece'
recitation.

> ===============
> I'm glad to be able to join you and Sarah in Viet Nam discussion even for fews
day. I think if I listen to T.A. Sujin and friends during the discussion and be
able to understand dhamma even just very little, it is very worth it for the
trip.
>
> By the way, I so admire and anumodhana your effort of recording and editing
all dhamma discussion for our friends to listen and learn more from T.A. Sujin.
Dhamma tana is the most precious tana of all.
> ===============

J:  The editing is quite time-consuming work for Sarah and me, but nonetheless a
labour of love :-))

Jon


#127761	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:35 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 8, no 3.(lacking part)	 jonoabb 
 	
Hi Nina

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Jon and Jagkrit,
> Op 12-nov-2012, om 16:03 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven:
>
> > By the way, I so admire and anumodhana your effort of recording and
> > editing all dhamma discussion for our friends to listen and learn
> > more from T.A. Sujin. Dhamma tana is the most precious tana of all.
> ------
> N: Yes, anumodana. I listen every night and I get a lot out of it. It
> helps me through a difficult time.
> Nina.
> ===============

J:  Many thanks for the encouragement!

Jon


#127762	From: "Rev Triple" <revtriple@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:53 pm 
Subject: A Female Buddha	 revtriple 
 	
Is there ANYWHERE in the Tipitaka where any FEMALE Buddha's or FEMALE Buddha is
ACTUALLY mentioned or is the potential just implied ?

THANK YOU!


#127763	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:27 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 upasaka_howard 
 	
Hi, Ken & Herman -

In a message dated 11/12/2012 6:47:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kenhowardau@... writes:

Hi  Herman,

-----
> H: Kamma plays no role in Dhamma. Have I  paraphrased you correctly?
-----

KH: It depends on what you mean by  kamma. I suspect you mean something
over which you have a degree of control.  If that is what you mean then, yes,
you have paraphrased me correctly.

Ken H
===============================
     There is no controller, but kamma is,  exactly, intention. And it plays
a central role in the Dhamma.

With metta,
Howard


Seamless  Interdependence

/A change in anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)






#127764	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi Howard, Herman,KenH,

you wrote
There is no controller, but kamma is, exactly, intention. And it plays a central
role in the Dhamma.

D: yup! ;-)

with Metta Dieter







#127765	From: "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@... 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:58 pm 
Subject: The Questions : Sense Bases/Various Kamma	 yawares1 
 	
Dear Members,

This Texas Uposatha Day is super cold,  37F right now...I/Tep decided to walk
meditation inside our house 68F.

And I love King Milinda's question #2 very very much.

-------------

The Questions Of King Milinda
[Translated ted by T.W.Rhys Davids]

#1. "What is the root, "Are the five sense
bases produced from various kammas, or
all from one?"

  "From various kammas, O
king."

"Give me an illustration."

"If you were to sow five kinds of seeds in a
field the produce would be of five kinds."

-----------

#2. "Why is it, Nàgasena, that all men are not alike; some
are short-lived and some long-lived, some sickly and some
healthy, some ugly and some handsome, some powerful
and some powerless, some poor and some rich, some lowborn
and some noble, some foolish and some wise?"

"Why is it that all plants are not alike?"

"Because they come from different seeds."

"Just so, O king, it is because of the variety of kammas
that beings are not all the same. For this was said by the
Blessed One, `All beings have kamma as their own property,
are heirs to it, born from it, are relatives of their kamma and
have kamma as their refuge; whatever kamma they do
divides them into high and low states'."

*******
yawares/sirikanya


#127766	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:40 am 
Subject: Knowing dhamma as dhamma.(1)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

Knowing dhamma as dhamma.(1)

Q.Nina: We can begin to be aware of lobha, or is it too difficult for
us, beginners?

Acharn: One may think that one is aware of lobha. What is the result
of being aware?

Nina: Detachment.

Acharn: To know that it is a reality, a mental reality. The point is
developing understanding of the true nature of realities which are
not self. All the time there is an idea of self: I see, I hear, I
think, I am angry, I have lobha, I have dosa. But lobha has
conditions for its arising. In order to really understand lobha as
lobha, not me, not my lobha, one has to begin to know that it is a
reality with its own characteristic. Lobha is different from dosa. We
should not just realize: I know that it is lobha, I know that it is
dosa. That is not the understanding of lobha as a mental reality, of
dosa as a mental reality. When understanding is being developed, it
is like beginning to read, to learn or hear about dhamma; it must be
the understanding of the meaning of dhamma. We know that dhamma is
dhamma, by learning or by hearing. But when understanding is
developed it is the moment of knowing the characteristic of dhamma.
It will be known that they are all dhammas, every day. By the
development of understanding of the true nature of realities it will
be known that there is no one in dhamma, from moment to moment, from
one characteristic to another characteristic. This is not a notion of
I see lobha, I know lobha. Then there is I who knows, who observes,
who notices. Satipa.t.thaana is not like that.

--------

Nina.




#127767	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:58 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Dieter,
Op 12-nov-2012, om 17:52 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

> D: I think we have talked about why the hindrances are included
> under ( thecontemplation of) mental objects and not the (states of)
> mind but can't remember the conclusion (?).
-----
N: They are under contemplation of dhammas, they are akusala cetasikas.
-------
D: When having attention to breath one does not think of other
matters. Everybody can check that for oneself.
Which means: mental formations (sankhara khandha) change from
activity (towards the senses media) to the passivity of observation
on a single object, the breath.

--------

N: Pa~n~naa has to be keen no matter one develops samatha or vipassanaa.

After seeing or after hearing, even in the same process of citta,
akusala javanacittas with attachment are bound to arise. The
attachment may be accompanied by indifferent feeling and then it is
not noticed that there is lobha    already, it arises so soon.

-------

Nina.



#127768	From: "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:25 am 
Subject: Re: Knowing dhamma as dhamma.(1)	 jagkrit2012 
 	
Dear Nina

> T.A. Sujin: When understanding is being developed, it
> is like beginning to read, to learn or hear about dhamma; it must be
> the understanding of the meaning of dhamma.

>We know that dhamma is  dhamma, by learning or by hearing. But when
understanding is
> developed it is the moment of knowing the characteristic of dhamma.
> It will be known that they are all dhammas, every day.
==========

JJ: Should this be the first start to learn dhamma? It seems that most of the
people skip this part and go on with high level of dhamma.

============

> T.A.Sujin: By the development of understanding of the true nature of realities
it will
> be known that there is no one in dhamma, from moment to moment, from
> one characteristic to another characteristic. This is not a notion of
> I see lobha, I know lobha. Then there is I who knows, who observes,
> who notices. Satipa.t.thaana is not like that.
>
===========

JJ: Satipa.t.thaana is high level of dhamma. If development of understanding is
yet realising no one but dhamma, it is meaningless to expect that
satipa.t.thaana arises.

Thank you and anumodhana

Jagkrit


#127769	From: "connie" <nichicon@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:40 am 
Subject: Re: A Female Buddha	 nichiconn 
 	
Rev Triple,

>
> Is there ANYWHERE in the Tipitaka where any FEMALE Buddha's or FEMALE Buddha
is ACTUALLY mentioned or is the potential just implied ?
>


from Gradual Sayings I, ch XV, The impossible:
   <  It is impossible, monks, it cannot come to pass, that a woman should be an
Arahant who is a Fully Enlightened One. But, monks, it is quite possible for a
man to be one ... So likewise with regard to an universal monarch.       That a
woman should become a Sakka, a Maara, a Brahmaa, is a thing impossible. But a
man may be.  >

from The A"nguttara Nikaaya, Notes to the Ones, 157:
   <  It seems that in the old Nikaayas the idea of aspiring for future
Buddhahood is not raised at all. Thus the claim being made here is not that a
woman cannot become a perfectly enlightened Buddha in a future life but that a
Buddha is always male. The assertion in this sutta need not be read as excluding
the possibility that one who is presently a woman could become a Buddha, but
this would have to take place in a future life, after she has undergone a change
of gender. {c: snipping remarks on Indian culture and Chinese texts...}
According to such later canonical texts as the Buddhavamsa, if a woman resolves
to attain Buddhahood in the presence of a Buddha, her resolution does not
succeed (ie, she does not receive the prediction of future Buddhahood). For the
resolution to succeed, the aspirant must be a male who has left the home life.
{snip} >

from A Treatise on the Paaramiis (All-Embracing Net of Views, BPS'92 p251):
   <  The condition of the paaramiis is, firstly, the great apsiration
(abhiniihaara). This is the aspiration supported by the eight qualifications (to
be shortly discussed), which occurs thus: "Crossed I would cross, freed I would
free, tamed I would tame, calmed I would calm, comforted I would comfort,
attained to nibbana I would lead to nibbaana, purified I would purifiy,
enlightened I would enlighten!" This is the condition for all the paaramiis
without exception.
      The eight qualifications through which the aspiration succeeds are: the
human state, the male sex, the cause, the sight of the Master, the going forth,
the achievement of noble qualities, extreme dedication, and strong desire (see
Bv II v 59).
      (1) The human state (manussatta): The aspiration for Buddhahood only
succeeds when made by one who has attained to the human state of existence, not
when made by one existing as a Naaga, Supa.n.na, etc. Why? Because these other
states do not correspond with the state of a Buddha (who always arises in the
human state).
      (2) The male sex (lingasampatti): For one who has attained to the human
state, the aspiration only succeeds when made by a man, not when made by a
woman, eunuch, neuter, or hermaphrodite. Why? For the aforesaid reason (i.e.
because the Buddha is always of the male sex), and because there is no
fulfilment of the required characteristics (in these other cases). As it is
said: "This is impossible, bhikkhus, this cannot come to pass, that a woman
might become a Holy One, a perfectly enlightened Buddha" (A.I.15.2.2)
      (3) The cause (hetu): the achievement of the necessary supporting
conditions. Even for a man, the aspiration only succeeds for one endowed with
the necessary supporting conditions, one who has achieved the requisite causal
foundation, not for anyone else.  >

hope that helps,
connie


#127770	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:57 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Female Buddha	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi Connie,

good quotations .. I copied , thanks.

with Metta Dieter






#127771	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:41 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing dhamma as dhamma.(1)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Jagkrit,

Op 13-nov-2012, om 16:25 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven:

> JJ: Should this be the first start to learn dhamma? It seems that
> most of the people skip this part and go on with high level of dhamma.
-----
N: As you also know, Acharn said many times: first understand what
dhamma is. Then, later on, one can understand naama and ruupa. I like
it that she repeats: little by little, little by little. Some people
like to go fast (cai ron, a hot heart, in Thai).
------
Nina.





#127772	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:13 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vietnam 1	 moellerdieter 
 	
Dear Nina,

you wrote:

(D: I think we have talked about why the hindrances are included > under (
thecontemplation of) mental objects and not the (states of)
> mind but can't remember the conclusion (?). -----

N: They are under contemplation of dhammas, they are akusala cetasikas.

D: true , but then what about other factors of the citta contemplation?:
"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the
case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has
passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without
passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion.
When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without
aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion.
When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without
delusion.
"When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the
mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is
enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged,
he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he
discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns
that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that
the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that
the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the
mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is
not released."

Passion related to cetasika chanda, lobha .  Aversion to dosa . Delusion to moha
and concentration to ekaggata.
I am missing still the clue of distinction ..


D: When having attention to breath one does not think of other matters.
Everybody can check that for oneself.
Which means: mental formations (sankhara khandha) change from activity (towards
the senses media) to the passivity of observation
on a single object, the breath.

--------

N: Pa~n~naa has to be keen no matter one develops samatha or vipassanaa.

D: or vice versa .. the path-training refers to samadhi  (6,7,8 of the  N.T:) as
the supporting foundation for panna (1,2 )


N:After seeing or after hearing, even in the same process of citta, akusala
javanacittas with attachment are bound to arise. The
attachment may be accompanied by indifferent feeling and then it is not noticed
that there is lobha already, it arises so soon.

D: why bound to arise ? Most sensations of our daily consciousness pass without
special attention.
It is emotion of a certain impression which turns to lobha or dosa, doesn't it?

with Metta Dieter



#127773	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:28 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi KenH,


KH: No, that's still not it. Please consult Nyanaponika's Buddhist Dictionary.

D: no, that is Nyanatiloka's ..  ;-)

(> D: but this truth needs not only to be understood but penetrated and realized
, up to then ( last fetter mana/conceit) the ignorance /delusion of self is
prevalent. ( For example :a mirage is taken for real until it is discerned as
such).
------------------------

KH: I think you are saying there needs to be a practice apart from right
understanding. That is, there needs to be a ritual satipatthana.

-D: not really .. let's say there is wrong  understanding, a bit of
understanding , advanced understanding  and there is the perfection (samma) of
understanding  (led  by practise/penetration  )

-------
<. . .>
> D: starting with the training of the precepts .. nothing to do /not to do ?
--------

KH: There can *never* be anything to do. Even conventional teachings (piano
lessons, for example) cannot be deliberately put into practice.
There can be an *illusion* of deliberate piano practice, but nothing more than
that.

D: tell that a piano virtuoso ..


KH: This rule applies even more strictly to vipassana practice (satipatthana).
There can't even be an illusion of deliberate satipatthana.
What is mean is, there isn't a ritual that can symbolise satipatthana. Sitting
cross-legged, for example, is no more symbolic of satipatthana than is walking
or eating etc. (see the Satipatthana Sutta).


D: I see  that the Buddha stated :"There is the case where a monk - having gone
to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building - sits down
folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to
the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful
he breathes out...."

------------------
<. . .>
>> KH: I think we have established beyond doubt that the two perspectives are
totally at odds with each
other. They require conflicting interpretations of virtually every point taught
in the Tipitaka.

>> D: not conflicting , Ken .You simply cannot deny that the Buddha spoke of two
kinds of right understanding ..as quoted before.
-------------------

KH: I did my best to deny your interpretation of that quote. I said, even though
the *degree* of right understanding does vary in practice, there is only *one*
right understanding of the Dhamma.

D:  "There are these two who misrepresent the Tathagata. Which two? He who
represents a Sutta of indirect meaning as a Sutta of direct meaning and he who
represents a Sutta of direct meaning as a Sutta of indirect meaning.[4] "


-------------------------------
> D: Likewise classical physics and quantum physics are only contradicting
eachother (in many points) as far as it is overlooked that each is valid in its
own domain.
--------------------------------

KH: The domain of conventional understanding is outside the domain of the
Dhamma.
Conventional wisdom can never elucidate the Dhamma in any way. (Except sometimes
by way of simile, of course.)

D: A major misunderstanding by you .. related to your view concerning (the law
of) Kamma

I think we are as far as we can get this time , Ken..   perhaps a new start at
another occasion..

with Metta Dieter






#127774	From: "connie" <nichicon@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:05 am 
Subject: Re: A Female Buddha	 nichiconn 
 	
hi Dieter, RevT,

>
> good quotations .. I copied , thanks.
>

on further reflection, though, they only answer that a female Sammasambuddha
will never be, however:  Is each and every arahant a type of buddha or does
'buddha' only apply for the pacceka- and sammaasam-buddhas?

revisiting the earlier quoted sutta:

AN ekakanipaatapaa.li, 15. a.t.thaanapaa.li, 2. dutiyavaggo
279. "a.t.thaanameta.m, bhikkhave, anavakaaso ya.m itthii araha.m assa
sammaasambuddho. neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. .thaana~nca kho, eta.m, bhikkhave,
vijjati ya.m puriso araha.m assa sammaasambuddho. .thaanameta.m vijjatii"ti.

Numerical Discourses: "It is impossible and inconceivable, bhikkhus, that woman
could be an arahant who is a perfectly enlightened Buddha ... But it is possible
that a man could occupy the psition [of a perfectly enlightened Buddha]; there
is such a possibility."

back to the books!

  from Udaana 1.5: The Discourse about the Elders
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Udana/1-Bodhivaggo-\
05.htm
"Baahitvaa paapake dhamme, ~ ye caranti sadaa sataa,
   Those who, having removed bad things, live always mindful,
Khii.nasa.myojanaa Buddhaa, ~ te ve lokasmi.m braahma.naa" ti.
   The Buddhas who have destroyed the fetters, ~ truly they are braahma.nas in
the world."

Udaana Cy, vol 1, p94:
Those in whom the fetter has been destroyed (khii.nasa.myojanaa): those in whom
the fetter has been completely destroyed on account of the fact that the fetter,
that is tenfold, has been extirpated by means of all four ariyan paths.   
Buuddhas (buddhaa): buddhas as a result of awakening to the four thruths; and
these are, moreover, threefold, viz. saavakabuddhas, paccekabuddhas and
Sammaasambuddhas; as to these, it is saavakabuddhas that are, in this case,
implied.
<end quote>


> Is there ANYWHERE in the Tipitaka where any FEMALE Buddha's or FEMALE Buddha
is ACTUALLY mentioned or is the potential just implied ?

If we include saavakabuddhas, the Theriigaathaa is full of examples.

best wishes,
connie


#127776	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:33 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Female Buddha	 moellerdieter 
 	
Hi Connie,

I assume what is stated is that  there will be never a female  Sammaasambuddha ,
i.e. a Fully Enlightened One, who rediscovers and teaches the ancient truths
after the true dhamma has disappeared.
Saavakabuddhas are Arahants , enlightened disciples , aren't they ? You are
right, there were quite a number of female Arahants (see
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/women.html  )
I can't recall to have read about  paccekabuddhas .As those are supposed to have
developed  the truths by themselves but not being able repsectively unwilling to
teach , their recognition was likely quite difficult..  perhaps only mentioned
as a possibilty

with Metta Dieter.






#127777	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:02 am 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Herman,

-----
> H: At the risk of appearing harsh, could I ask you to, rather than wriggle, or
make innuendo's about what I probably mean by kamma,
------------

KH: Why do you object to my making innuendos? Should I not suggest you believe
in a controlling self?

If you prefer I will simply state my opinion: you, Herman, believe in a
controlling self.

-------------------------
> H: just tell me what you mean by kamma? That would just get straight to the
point of my question.
-------------------------

KH: You already know what I mean by kamma. We have had this type of conversation
many times before.

-----------------
H: You could however fruitfully anticipate future questions, and already bear in
mind when answering whether you actually believe that kamma is somehow vipaka.
-----------------

KH: I'll admit they are both conditioned dhammas; one is a cetasika and the
other a cita. Neither contains a controlling self nor pertains to one in any
way.  So, from the perspective of sakkaya-ditthi, there is no meaningful
difference between kamma and vipaka, or any other dhamma.

Ken H


#127778	From: "philip" <philco777@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:46 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Taking a break	 philofillet 
 	
Dear Nina
>
> > I'll be taking a break until the Thailand trip, for the usual
> > reasons. Look forward to discussing with you there.
> -----
> N: You may break your intention of taking a break :-))


   Of course! No control over that. Conditions for generosity and other kusala
factors may temporarily  become more predominant than the conditions for dosa
and other akusala, never any telling what behaviour will result, quite
fascinating, anatta.

   I will continue to gather transcriptions in the file section. Again and again
I hear about the value of understanding the presently arisen dhamma, whatever it
is.


    phil


#127779	From: "connie" <nichicon@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:10 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: A Female Buddha	 nichiconn 
 	
hey Dieter,


> I assume what is stated is that  there will be never a female  Sammaasambuddha
, i.e. a Fully Enlightened One, who rediscovers and teaches the ancient truths
after the true dhamma has disappeared.

c: that's how i read the sutta, too...


> Saavakabuddhas are Arahants , enlightened disciples , aren't they ? You are
right, there were quite a number of female Arahants (see
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/women.html  )

c: yes.


> I can't recall to have read about  paccekabuddhas .As those are supposed to
have developed  the truths by themselves but not being able repsectively
unwilling to teach , their recognition was likely quite difficult..  perhaps
only mentioned as a possibilty
>

c: speaking of not recognizing them, check out this entry on the 'silent'
paccekabuddhas!
http://www.palikanon.de/english/pali_names/ku/khaggavisaana.htm
{khaggavisaana: (rhino) with a sword-like horn}
i don't recall a single solitary female buddha story/mention.

later,
connie


#127780	From: "connie" <nichicon@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:29 am 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 nichiconn 
 	
oops, Ken!

> -----------------
> H: You could however fruitfully anticipate future questions, and already bear
in mind when answering whether you actually believe that kamma is somehow
vipaka.
> -----------------
>
> KH: I'll admit they are both conditioned dhammas; one is a cetasika and the
other a cita. Neither contains a controlling self nor pertains to one in any
way.  So, from the perspective of sakkaya-ditthi, there is no meaningful
difference between kamma and vipaka, or any other dhamma.
>

c: both are cittas.  vipaakas/resultants are avyaakata/morally neutral.
http://www.palikanon.de/english/wtb/u_v/vipaaka.htm

peace,
connie


#127781	From: "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:18 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing dhamma as dhamma.(1)	 jagkrit2012 
 	
Dear Nina

> N: As you also know, Acharn said many times: first understand what
> dhamma is. Then, later on, one can understand naama and ruupa. I like
> it that she repeats: little by little, little by little. Some people
> like to go fast (cai ron, a hot heart, in Thai).
===============

JJ: Yes, indeed most of people including me are always cai ron (so eager) to
know more dhamma and to realise 4 noble truths. Then we lost the battle to Lobha
already.

Even in the very beginning, to understand what is dhamma is so difficult.

At first I think when we learn that dhamma is dhamma, not person, thing or self,
we think we already understand. But I found that we just understand the wording.
In fact, we still cling to person, thing and self all the time even when we keep
in mind that there is only dhamma, no person, no thing and no self. It's just
only our thinking, our idea. But in reality with out true understanding, we can
not aware that wrong view about person, thing and self which arises almost all
the time.

Repetition of Acharn's reminding is very crucial in my point of view because
this will make us come back from thinking and contemplate on reality until the
memory (sanya) is steadfast enough to be the cause of awareness again and again
and again. This should be the swell nutrition of panna to grow little by little
by little and self should be eradicated little by little by little as Acharn
always mentions.

By this way, we then have to be patient and patient and patient. The most
importantly, being patient not to bring our self to study dhamma because lobha
will find its way to stall more understanding or panna. People always would like
to find a short cut to enlightenment. But in Hanoi discussion, she said it is a
short cut to lobha instead.

Thank you and anumodhana

Jagkrit


#127782	From: "connie" <nichicon@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:32 pm 
Subject: Re: Shakti's very sad news	 nichiconn 
 	
sorry, Shakti, Nina.

from the Commentary (Illustrator) on Minor Readings, Outside the Gates, stanza
10:
37. So the Blessed One said
      Adaasi me, akaasi me, ~naatimittaa sakhaa ca me
      Petaana"m dakkhi.na"m dajjaa pubbe kata"m anussara"m.
'"He gave to me, he worked for me,
'He was my kin, friend, intimate".
'Give gifts, then, for departed ones,
'Recalling what they used to do.'
      And when he had said this, showing examples for recollection in the
consigning of an almsgiving for the departed, [214] he then uttered the stanza,
namely, 'No weeping', showing that while people remain overpowered by weeping
and sorrow, etc., on the death of their relative and give nothing for their
benefit, their tears and sorrow are only a self-mortification quite sterile of
any benefit for the departed ones.
<end quote>

my father's cuti was on this recent leap day so it’s a long year i plan on
"being in mourning" – may it please you that i've been happy to include Bodhi
and Lodewijk as dhamma relatives; if there were only my own merit to share, it
would be a meager offering at best & even so, whoever might be in the ghost
realm would soon enough protest: NO MORE STALE FARE!

good grief, i am like the king who planted bananas where he thought he would be
reborn as a monkey!

peace,
connie





#127783	From: "colette_aube" <colette_aube@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:24 am 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm, only ON THE HORIZON, a potential reality...	 colette_aube 
 	
Hi Group,

being a young student of Buddhist theory I check in, from time to time, here to
see what's going on and how it relates, if at all, to my study. Aggrivation and
aggitation always catches my gaze since watching a good fight is and can be a
good stress reliever.

This conflict between Herman and Ken H seams rather amusing because of it's
delusional foundation (I'm far too deep in THE MIND ONLY SCHOOL OF BUDDHIST
THEORY). It was pretty amuzing when KH told Herman that Herman believed in a
controlling self since if it was not for the controlling self's existence then
Ken H. could not have notified Herman how foolish Herman was because, as we can
all see, Herman is certainly not Ken H., or is he, is it possible for Herman to
actually NOT BE KEN H.?

Why does a "controlling self" need to be, need to exist? Why does "control" have
to be a factor BEFORE cognition can exist? Are we in that tired old esoteric
conflict of "Chaos vs. Control" type of thing? Why can you both NOT ALLOW THE
PRESENT TO EXIST WITHOUT BEING CONTROLLED? Why does CONTROL have to exist so
that the present can be cognized? Does you consciousness need you to control it?
YES, I admit without a shadow of a doubt that I can consciously control the the
effect of pain through my body to my mind because my body has been surgically
cut open so many times and I have been put through so many decades of physical
torture in POVERTY. yes, it is possible to control the cognition of pain to the
mind. but why does there need to be a self which controls everything?

toodles,
colette

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Herman,
>
> -----
> > H: At the risk of appearing harsh, could I ask you to, rather than wriggle,
or make innuendo's about what I probably mean by kamma,
> ------------
>
> KH: Why do you object to my making innuendos? Should I not suggest you believe
in a controlling self?
>
> If you prefer I will simply state my opinion: you, Herman, believe in a
controlling self.
>
> -------------------------
> > H: just tell me what you mean by kamma? That would just get straight to the
point of my question.
> -------------------------
>
> KH: You already know what I mean by kamma. We have had this type of
conversation many times before.
>
> -----------------
> H: You could however fruitfully anticipate future questions, and already bear
in mind when answering whether you actually believe that kamma is somehow
vipaka.
> -----------------
>
> KH: I'll admit they are both conditioned dhammas; one is a cetasika and the
other a cita. Neither contains a controlling self nor pertains to one in any
way.  So, from the perspective of sakkaya-ditthi, there is no meaningful
difference between kamma and vipaka, or any other dhamma.
>
> Ken H
>


#127784	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:29 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Connie,

-----
<. . .>c: both are cittas.  vipaakas/resultants are avyaakata/morally neutral.
http://www.palikanon.de/english/wtb/u_v/vipaaka.htm
-----

KH: No argument about vipaka, but could you say something about kamma, please? I
have a history of being wrong about it.  Why isn't it cetana cetasika?

Ken H


#127785	From: "connie" <nichicon@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:34 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 nichiconn 
 	
Oh sorry, Ken, my bad!  You're absolutely right: kamma = cetana.
http://www.palikanon.de/english/wtb/g_m/karma.htm
i'm pretty good at confusing things; thanks for pointing it out.
saying kamma- or lobha-mula-citta is like saying bacon- or cheese-burger.  what
i was calling kamma citta would better be called javana cittas.
  and i holler at RobE to "strive for precision in your speech",
connie


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Connie,
>
> -----
> <. . .>c: both are cittas.  vipaakas/resultants are avyaakata/morally neutral.
> http://www.palikanon.de/english/wtb/u_v/vipaaka.htm
> -----
>
> KH: No argument about vipaka, but could you say something about kamma, please?
I have a history of being wrong about it.  Why isn't it cetana cetasika?
>
> Ken H
>


#127786	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:13 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 ptaus1 
 	
Hi Dieter,

> It is as well necessary to have in mind that D.O. refers to moment and all
moments in life (jati here and now and jati from the mother's womb)


Thanks. I will have to revise on D.O. when I find time. I think I'm confusing
the interpretations according to three scales - one citta, one life, three
lives.

Best wishes
pt


#127787	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:18 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 ptaus1 
 	
Hi Phil,

>  Best steer clear, in my opinion. For modern Buddhists, D.O seems so deep and
fascinating, but it's just a plaything for lobha/moha...we have to
> start where we are, with present realities understood to the degree that
understanding arises.
>
>   As soon as someone mentions D.O, you can be sure that there is too much
hunger for deep understanding.


Thanks. Yes, it's good to know lobha can happen anytime - in daily stuff or in
dhamma discussion, on or off internet, in or outside a monastery, etc. Just like
understanding can happen anytime. No rules.

Best wishes
pt


#127788	From: Herman <hhofmeister@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:38 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fw: The Storm	 egberdina 
 	
Hi KenH,

On 14 November 2012 08:02, Ken H <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Herman,
>
> -----
> > H: At the risk of appearing harsh, could I ask you to, rather than
> wriggle, or make innuendo's about what I probably mean by kamma,
> ------------
>
> KH: Why do you object to my making innuendos? Should I not suggest you
> believe in a controlling self?
>
> If you prefer I will simply state my opinion: you, Herman, believe in a
> controlling self.
>
>
This is a good start. A little bit more work, and you will soon understand:
Writing to Herman, he discerns he is writing to Herman.

or

Believing that Herman believes in a controlling self, he discerns that he
believes that Herman.......




> -------------------------
> > H: just tell me what you mean by kamma? That would just get straight to
> the point of my question.
> -------------------------
>
> KH: You already know what I mean by kamma. We have had this type of
> conversation many times before.
>
> -----------------
> H: You could however fruitfully anticipate future questions, and already
> bear in mind when answering whether you actually believe that kamma is
> somehow vipaka.
> -----------------
>
> KH: I'll admit they are both conditioned dhammas; one is a cetasika and
> the other a cita. Neither contains a controlling self nor pertains to one
> in any way. So, from the perspective of sakkaya-ditthi, there is no
> meaningful difference between kamma and vipaka, or any other dhamma.
>

Writing profusely about some dhamma theory, he discerns he is writing
profusely about some theory.



> Ken H
>



> --
>
Cheers

Herman


I do not know what I do not know




#127789	From: han tun <hantun1@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:30 pm 
Subject: Raahula (2)	 hantun1 
 	
Dear Friends,

Raahula was ordained as a saama.nera (novice) at the age of seven. In the
following sutta, the Buddha warns his son on the dangers in lying, and stresses
the importance of constant reflection on one's activities: bodily, verbally and
mentally. The Buddha uses very simple examples so that a seven-year-old can
understand.

---------------

MN 61. Ambala.t.thikaa-raahulovaada Sutta: Advice to Raahula at Ambala.t.thikaa
[First part]
(translation by Ven Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)

1. THUS HAVE I HEARD. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Raajagaha in
the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary.

2. Now on that occasion the venerable Raahula was living at Ambala.t.thikaa.
[Note 637] Then, when it was evening, the Blessed One rose from meditation and
went to the venerable Raahula at Ambala.t.thikaa. The venerable Raahula saw the
Blessed One coming in the distance and made a seat ready and set out water for
washing the feet. The Blessed One sat down on the seat made ready and washed his
feet. The venerable Raahula paid homage to him and sat down at one side.

[Note 637] Raahula was the only son of the Buddha, born on the day his father
left the palace to seek enlightenment. At the age of seven he was ordained as a
novice by Ven. Saariputta on the occasion of the Buddha's first return visit to
Kapilavatthu after his enlightenment. The Buddha declared him the foremost
disciple among those desirous of training. According to MA, this discourse was
taught to Raahula when he was seven years old, thus very shortly after his
ordination. At MN 147 he attains arahantship after listening to a discourse by
the Buddha on the development of insight.

3. Then the Blessed One left a little water in the water vessel and asked the
venerable Raahula: "Raahula, do you see this little water left in the water
vessel?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Even so little, Raahula, is the recluseship of
those who are not ashamed to tell a deliberate lie."

4. Then the Blessed One threw away the little water that was left and asked the
venerable Raahula: "Raahula, do you see that little water that was thrown away?"
"Yes, venerable sir." "Even so, Raahula, those who are not ashamed to tell a
deliberate lie have thrown away their recluseship."

5. Then the Blessed One turned the water vessel upside down and asked the
venerable Raahula: "Raahula, do you see this water vessel turned upside down?"
"Yes, venerable sir." "Even so, Raahula, those who are not ashamed to tell a
deliberate lie have turned their recluseship upside down."

6. Then the Blessed One turned the water vessel right way up again and asked the
venerable Raahula: "Raahula, do you see this hollow, empty water vessel?" "Yes,
venerable sir." "Even so hollow and empty, Raahula, is the recluseship of those
who are not ashamed to tell a deliberate lie."

7. "Suppose, Raahula, there were a royal tusker elephant with tusks as long as
chariot poles, full-grown in stature, high-bred, and accustomed to battle. In
battle he would perform his task with his forefeet and his hindfeet, with his
forequarters and his hindquarters, with his head and his ears, with his tusks
and his tail, yet he would keep back his trunk. Then his rider would think:
'This royal tusker elephant with tusks as long as chariot poles, full-grown in
stature, high-bred, and accustomed to battle. In battle he performs his task in
battle with his forefeet and his hindfeet, with his forequarters and his
hindquarters, with his head and his ears, with his tusks and his tail, yet he
keeps back his trunk. He has not yet given up his life.'

But when the royal tusker elephant with tusks as long as chariot poles,
full-grown in stature, high-bred, and accustomed to battle. In battle he
performs his task in battle with his forefeet and his hindfeet, with his
forequarters and his hindquarters, with his head and his ears, with his tusks
and his tail, and also with his trunk, then his rider would think: 'This royal
tusker elephant with tusks as long as chariot poles, full-grown in stature,
high-bred, and accustomed to battle. In battle he performs his task in battle
with his forefeet and his hindfeet, with his forequarters and his hindquarters,
with his head and his ears, with his tusks and his tail, and also with his
trunk. He has given up his life. Now there is nothing this royal tusker elephant
would not do.' So too, Raahula, when one is not ashamed to tell a deliberate
lie, there is no evil, I say, that one would not do. Therefore, Raahula, you
should train thus: 'I will not utter a falsehood
  even as a joke.'

The second part of the sutta to be continued.

with metta,
Han


 	
AdChoices

#127790	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:50 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: With the passing of time	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Hi Herman,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>

> > S: What can be known now is present "daily life stuff".
> > ....
> >
> >
>H:  I don't agree here, with great confidence :-)
.....

S: Is seeing now "daily life stuff"? Is visible object, hearing, sound "daily
life stuff"?

Can it not be proved now that all that is seen is visible object? All that is
heard is sound? That seeing now is not self?
....
>
> Outside of samadhi there is no hope in Hades of being anything but deluded
> about what is now .
>
> SN 35.99
> PTS: S iv
80<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/SN_IV_utf8.html#pts.080>
>
> CDB ii 1181
> Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
>
> "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they
> actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present?
....
S: There is concentration at every moment. When there is right understanding,
right concentration is developed. Otherwise not.
<...>
> > S: What the six worlds are empty of is self.

>H:  Yes.
>
> And permanence, and satisfaction ( so why are we all so happy most of the
> time ? :-).
>
...
S: Yes, seeing now, visible object now is empty of self, impermanent and
unsatisfactory.

Most of the time happy with lobha because the impermanent is taken for
permanent, the foul is taken for beautiful and that which is unsatisfactory is
taken for satisfactory. Only the  arahat has eradicated all the vipallasas
(perversions) and realises true happiness, the happiness of the wisdom which has
eradicated all defilements.

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127791	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:04 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 8 - last afternoon in Hanoi	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Jagkrit,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:

> Thank you very much for your dhamma series debrief during Hanoi discussion. A
lot of valuable explanation of Q&A in the discussion reminds and affirm more
understanding of dhamma.
> =========

S: We were very glad that you and your wife could join us for part of the trip.

By the end of our stay in Halong Bay on the boat and returning in the coach, we
were discussing Dhamma all the time. Even while Ajahn was resting on the coach
or after supper on the boat, our Vietnamese friends and we were still discussing
Dhamma together. Mai's husband Son only knew one or two Pali terms at the start
of our stay when Ajahn was talking about "what is dhamma?", "what is seeing?" By
the time we were returning on the coach into Hanoi, he was asking really complex
questions which I've never heard before, such as "How soon in a new life after
patisandhi citta can cuti citta arise? Can it arise before  the first sense
experience?" Whatever he or anyone else asked, Ajahn had a good answer related
to the understanding of realities now, never just a "book answer".

Even when Ajahn was resting and closing her eyes as the rest of us discussed
Dhamma together on the bus, she'd whisper comments to me and ask us to elaborate
on them. We all had a lot of fun.

We look forward to continuing these discussions in Thailand.


> =========
>
> JJ: I get the picture you describe and admit that our Vietnamese friends are
so enthusiastic and so interested in learn dhamma with T.A. Sujin and you. I had
a feeling that Hanoi discussion was very great and this was the beginning of
fruitful dhamma discussion which shall be held more discussion there in the
future. Do you agree?
...
S: Yes, I do. Tam and I were discussing this - some more discussion next year in
Saigon and Hanoi. I hope you'll help us arrange it. Nice and convenient to
Bangkok too.
....
>
> This discussion was kusala vipaka for us and especially our friends in Hanoi
who had a chance to accumulate right understanding from T.A. Sujin and you. This
was great hearing (Savana nutariya)
>
> I'm looking forward to seeing you in January very soon.
>
> Thank you and anumodhana
...
S: Jagkrit, you're always very kind and helpful. I have to anumodana you for
helping yet again with the conference room arrangements which made such a
difference for the discussions. We really felt very fortunate to be in Vietnam
with such keen and delightful new friends. We learnt a lot from their example.

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127792	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:10 pm 
Subject: Re: Return to Hong Kong	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Dear Tam,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach <tambach@...> wrote:

> We were just 100 meters away as you were writing theses lines...Indeed it has
been a wonderful week, most precious for us to hear such truth about the Dhamma.
I think my friends will soon show up on DSG.
...
S: :-)) Perhaps Son will ask some of his good questions here as well!
...
>
> We are so glad you and Jon has made it to Hanoi and assisted Ajhan to share
the Dhamma with us. Great kusala and we can't thank enough for that. Yesterday I
listened again to the recorded discussions and it reminded me of Jon's patience
and dedication, much appreciated by all of us.
...
S: We also appreciated your great patience, skill and dedication in translating
the entire discussions for a week into Vietnamese. Amazing and always in such
good humour. Only possible because of your good understanding of what was being
said and sympathy for those who were knew to hearing about "not doing!" It was
also a great gift to be able to share the Dhamma with your mother who looked so
happy. I look forward to meeting her again.
...
> Kachana wrote me a short e-mail saying Ajhan and all our Thai friends are
enjoying their stay in Sapa, good weather and beautiful scenery. I hope one day
we can have a Dhamma trip with you both in the middle of the terrace rice-fields
there...
...
S: Yes, we'd love that too.
>
> Looking forward to January,
...
S: Likewise

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127793	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:18 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing dhamma as dhamma.(1)	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Jagkrit,
Op 14-nov-2012, om 3:18 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven:

> Even in the very beginning, to understand what is dhamma is so
> difficult.
>
> At first I think when we learn that dhamma is dhamma, not person,
> thing or self, we think we already understand. But I found that we
> just understand the wording. In fact, we still cling to person,
> thing and self all the time even when we keep in mind that there is
> only dhamma, no person, no thing and no self. It's just only our
> thinking, our idea. But in reality with out true understanding, we
> can not aware that wrong view about person, thing and self which
> arises almost all the time.
>
> Repetition of Acharn's reminding is very crucial in my point of
> view because this will make us come back from thinking and
> contemplate on reality until the memory (sanya) is steadfast enough
> to be the cause of awareness again and again and again. This should
> be the swell nutrition of panna to grow little by little by little
> and self should be eradicated little by little by little as Acharn
> always mentions.
>
> By this way, we then have to be patient and patient and patient.
-----
N: I heartily agree and your words are a good reminder. Yes, very
difficult to see for example sadness as just a reality. We would like
to understand it in order to have less sadness, but no, that is not
the way. The aim is understanding. I also think that we have to hear
this again and again. We are not always in the mood for patience, but
this also is a dhamma depending on conditions. It cannot arise on
command, although we would like this.
Good to correspond with you.

Nina.





#127794	From: "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:21 pm 
Subject: Re: Vietnam 1	 sarahprocter... 
 	
Hi Rob E,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:

> >S:  There was a really long, detailed qu about breath and someone's practice
of awareness of breath. A.Sujin asked: "What is the purpose of meditation?" She
talked about avijja not understanding reality at this moment. 
> >
> > I think that for many people who have followed a meditation practice for a
long time, to hear about ignorance at this moment, wrong practice and the
importance of understanding seeing now, is all rather shocking. We're so used to
the idea of a self following steps, DOING something...... not easy at all. Some
people really appreciated it, but certainly not everyone!
>
>R: Thanks for the detailed description. Of course I would enjoy hearing the
whole detailed breathing question and the answer if there is more detail.  I
wonder if this session will ever be available as a tape?
....
S: We're about to finish the first edit of the Poland series this week [to be
found on www.dhammastudygroup.org] which I think you'd like a lot. Then there
are one or two loose ends, then I've promised Phil it'll be the first rough edit
of Bkk & KK earlier this year, then Vietnam!! Actually, I've already started
working on it. Will let you know....
...

> I think the idea of understanding in the moment and practice that does not
force or direct anything to happen, is useful even for someone like myself who
thinks that meditation is a valid part of the path.  If one is going to
practice, it is good to understand that you cannot possibly be responsible for
any results and that anything that happens in any "practice" is anatta.
...
S: Here's a quote from our last discussion:

"The intention to be aware is not the 8fold Path". A friend had a lot of
questions about intention to study, to come here, to read posts in order to be
aware. It is right understanding, not intention that should be stressed. And
samma sankappa is vitakka cetasika, the "foot of the world" which leads
understanding and the other factors to the object of understanding. By intention
to be aware or to do something in order to be aware, lobha takes us on the wrong
path.
..
>A simple test can determine if you are attached either to the practice or to
the fruits of the practice.  Just take away all 'credit' from yourself and see
if the practice still seems appealing.  I think that A. Sujin has a good point
that we generally try to "own" the whole process of whatever we are doing,
whether it is everyday activity or something path-related.  Good to hear about
the discussion along these lines.
...
S: If there's any idea of "doing anything" or any "practice" to be aware or
understand realities, it's not the understanding of the dhamma which appears now
as anatta.

Thanks for your interest, Rob. One day, we'll have you join us!!

Metta

Sarah
=====


#127795	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:22 pm 
Subject: Re: Fw: The Storm	 kenhowardau 
 	
Hi Dieter,

----
<. . .>
> D: no, that is Nyanatiloka's ..  ;-)
----

KH: Oh yes, I remember now; it was written by Nyanatiloka and revised by
Nyanaponika.

----------------
<. . .>
>> KH: There can be an *illusion* of deliberate piano practice, but nothing more
than that.

> D: tell that a piano virtuoso ..
-----------------

KH: There can be an illusion of a piano virtuoso . . .

-----------
<. . .>
>> KH:  Sitting cross-legged, for example, is no more symbolic of satipatthana
than is walking or eating etc. (see the Satipatthana Sutta).
-----------

D: I see  that the Buddha stated :"There is the case where a monk - having gone
to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building - sits down
folding his legs crosswise,

------------------

KH: Keep reading and you will see the Buddha also referred  to monks who were
practising satipatthana while walking, eating, or talking (etc).

-------------------
<. . .>
>> KH: <. . .> there is only *one* right understanding of the Dhamma.

> D:  "There are these two who misrepresent the Tathagata. Which two? He who
represents a Sutta of indirect meaning as a Sutta of direct meaning and he who
represents a Sutta of direct meaning as a Sutta of indirect meaning.[4] "
-------------------

KH: Indirect or direct, all suttas contain the same teaching.

------------------------
>>KH: Conventional wisdom can never elucidate the Dhamma in any way. (Except
sometimes by way of simile, of course.)

> D: A major misunderstanding by you .. related to your view concerning (the law
of) Kamma
------------------------------

KH: Conventional wisdom says we should do something in order to attain a goal in
the future. The Buddha's unconventional wisdom says there is no self to do, or
attain, anything.

-------------
> D: I think we are as far as we can get this time , Ken..   perhaps a new start
at another occasion..
-------------

KH: Yes, I think we can agree now that the two perspectives at DSG are
fundamentally different. I look forward to continuing our discussion another
time.

Ken H


#127796	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:26 pm 
Subject: The Perfections developed in Daily Life, Intro, no 3.	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

When we find out that the Buddha's teachings really help us to know
ourselves better we gain more confidence in them. Each time we visit
the holy places we can recollect his birth, his enlightenment, his
first sermon and his parinibbåna with more confidence, reverence and
gratefulness.

Víjjå caranasampanno-endowed with knowledge and virtue.
These are qualities of the Buddha we praise when we pay homage to
him. What is the meaning of these words? We read in the
“Visuddhimagga” (VII,32) :

Herein, the Blessed One’s possession of clear vision consists in the
fulfilment of Omniscience (Ps. 1, 131), while his possession of
conduct (virtue) consists in the fulfilment of the Great Compassion
(Ps. 1, 126). He knows through omniscience what is good and harmful
for all beings, and through compassion he warns them of harm and
exhorts them to do good. Out of compassion the Buddha developed
during his lives as a Bodhisatta the ten perfections, påramís, so
that he eventually could become the Sammåsambuddha, an omniscient
Buddha who has discovered the truth all by himself and who is able to
teach the truth to others as well.

We read in the Introduction to the Jåtakas, the Buddha's birth
stories [1], that the Bodhisatta, aeons ago, when he was born as the
brahman Sumedha, came to realize that it is sorrowful to be subject
to birth, old age and death. He wanted to look for the way leading to
freedom from birth and he became an ascetic. He acquired proficiency
in the jhånas and supernatural powers. Once he saw people clearing a
path for the Buddha Dípankara and he helped full of joy. The Buddha
approached before Sumedha's work was finished and Sumedha, with great
devotion, lay down on the mud, wishing that the Buddha would tread on
him. He aspired to become a Buddha in the future and the Buddha
Dípankara declared that his aspiration would reach fulfilment.
Sumedha then considered the ten perfections he would have to develop
during innumerable lives as a Bodhisatta in order to attain Buddhahood.

The ten perfections are the following:

liberality (dåna)

morality (síla)

renunciation (nekkhamma)

wisdom (paññå)

energy (viriya)

patience (khanti)

truthfulness (sacca)

determination (aditthåna)

lovingkindness (mettå)

equanimity (upekkhå)

The Bodhisatta was unshakable in his resolution to develop the
påramís in order to attain Buddhahood for the welfare and happiness
of other beings. He always had in mind to alleviate the sufferings of
beings and he was prepared to give his life for them. He was mindful
of his ultimate goal, the attainment of Buddhahood, also when he
encountered great difficulties and obstacles. He practised the
perfections with constancy and vigour, out of compassion for us, so
that we too can attain enlightenment.
--------
[1]  Commentarial literature, translated by H.C. Warren, Harvard
Oriental Series III.
-------
Nina.





#127797	From: han tun <hantun1@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:28 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Female Buddha	 hantun1 
 	
Dear Connie,

I have the chance to see your reply to Dieter, and RevT.
I find it very useful and I thank you very much.
I could locate what you have referred to.

A"nguttara Nikaaya, ekakanipaatapaa.li, 15. a.t.thaanapaa.li, 2. Dutiyavaggo

279. "A.t.thaanameta.m, bhikkhave, anavakaaso ya.m itthii araha.m assa
sammaasambuddho. Neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. .thaana~nca kho, eta.m, bhikkhave,
vijjati ya.m puriso araha.m assa sammaasambuddho. .thaanameta.m vijjatii"ti.

279. Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a woman could be the worthy, rightfully
enlightened all knowing one. It is possible that a man could be the worthy,
rightfully enlightened all knowing one.
----------
280. "A.t.thaanameta.m , bhikkhave, anavakaaso ya.m itthii raajaa assa
cakkavattii. Neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. .thaana~nca kho eta.m, bhikkhave, vijjati
ya.m puriso raajaa assa cakkavattii. .thaanameta.m vijjatii"ti.

280. Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a woman could be the universal monarch. It
is possible that a man could be the universal monarch.
----------
281-283. "A.t.thaanameta.m, bhikkhave, anavakaaso ya.m itthii sakkatta.m
kaareyya [pe] maaratta.m kaareyya [pe] brahmatta.m kaareyya. Neta.m .thaana.m
vijjati. .thaana~nca kho eta.m, bhikkhave, vijjati ya.m puriso sakkatta.m
kaareyya [pe] maaratta.m kaareyya [pe] brahmatta.m kaareyya. .thaanameta.m
vijjatii"ti.

281. Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a woman could be the king of gods [Sakka].
It is possible that a man could be the king of gods.

282. Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a woman could be the king of Death [Maara].
It is possible that a man could be the king of Death.

283. Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a woman could be the highest divine one
[Brahmaa] It is possible that a man could be the highest divine one.
----------

I am also grateful to you for quoting
Udaana, 1. Bodhi vagga, 5. Braahma.na Sutta.
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Udana/1-Bodhivaggo-\
05.htm

with metta and respect,
Han

--- On Wed, 11/14/12, connie <nichicon@...> wrote:
From: connie <nichicon@...>
Subject: [dsg] Re: A Female Buddha
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 3:06 AM

hi Dieter, RevT,

>
> good quotations .. I copied , thanks.
>

on further reflection, though, they only answer that a female Sammasambuddha
will never be, however: Is each and every arahant a type of buddha or does
'buddha' only apply for the pacceka- and sammaasam-buddhas?

revisiting the earlier quoted sutta:

AN ekakanipaatapaa.li, 15. a.t.thaanapaa.li, 2. dutiyavaggo
279. "a.t.thaanameta.m, bhikkhave, anavakaaso ya.m itthii araha.m assa
sammaasambuddho. neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. .thaana~nca kho, eta.m, bhikkhave,
vijjati ya.m puriso araha.m assa sammaasambuddho. .thaanameta.m vijjatii"ti.

Numerical Discourses: "It is impossible and inconceivable, bhikkhus, that woman
could be an arahant who is a perfectly enlightened Buddha ... But it is possible
that a man could occupy the psition [of a perfectly enlightened Buddha]; there
is such a possibility."

back to the books!

from Udaana 1.5: The Discourse about the Elders
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Udana/1-Bodhivaggo-\
05.htm
"Baahitvaa paapake dhamme, ~ ye caranti sadaa sataa,
Those who, having removed bad things, live always mindful,
Khii.nasa.myojanaa Buddhaa, ~ te ve lokasmi.m braahma.naa" ti.
The Buddhas who have destroyed the fetters, ~ truly they are braahma.nas in the
world."

Udaana Cy, vol 1, p94:
Those in whom the fetter has been destroyed (khii.nasa.myojanaa): those in whom
the fetter has been completely destroyed on account of the fact that the fetter,
that is tenfold, has been extirpated by means of all four ariyan paths. Buuddhas
(buddhaa): buddhas as a result of awakening to the four thruths; and these are,
moreover, threefold, viz. saavakabuddhas, paccekabuddhas and Sammaasambuddhas;
as to these, it is saavakabuddhas that are, in this case, implied.
<end quote>

> Is there ANYWHERE in the Tipitaka where any FEMALE Buddha's or FEMALE Buddha
is ACTUALLY mentioned or is the potential just implied ?

If we include saavakabuddhas, the Theriigaathaa is full of examples.

best wishes,
connie


#127798	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:35 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shakti's very sad news	 nilovg 
 	
Dear Connie,
Op 14-nov-2012, om 3:32 heeft connie het volgende geschreven:

> my father's cuti was on this recent leap day so it’s a long year i
> plan on "being in mourning" – may it please you that i've been
> happy to include Bodhi and Lodewijk as dhamma relatives; if there
> were only my own merit to share, it would be a meager offering at
> best & even so, whoever might be in the ghost realm would soon
> enough protest: NO MORE STALE FARE!
-----
N: My sympathy with the loss of your father, also symoathy to your
mother. Thank you for thinking of Lodewijk as a dhamma relative. It
is good like the Thais always do, to extend merit after listening to
Dhamma. We do not know who can profit from this, but that does not
matter.
Nina.





#127799	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@... 
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:02 pm 
Subject: Knowing dhamma as dhamma (2).	 nilovg 
 	
Dear friends,

Knowing dhamma as dhamma (2).

Satipa.t.thaana is a moment 0f developing awareness with
understanding, not only awareness. When there is right understanding
there is awareness for sure. It is not a matter of having intention
to have more sati. What for? When there is understanding sati is
there already. That is why the first factor of the eightfold Path is
sammaadi.t.thi, right view. If one does not hear about the
development of satipa.t.thaana how can there be conditions for
awareness to be aware? There is no way. One can have more
understanding of the characteristic of sati of different levels. Sati
of the level of awareness of a characteristic is different from sati
arising now with pa~n~naa that can understand by considering. It is
not “I” who considers, it is sati and the other cetasikas which arise
with citta and perform their functions, while the object is one
characteristic, only one.

We can say that we know lobha and that there is awareness of lobha,
but is this thinking about lobha or being aware of lobha? Sati can be
aware of any reality, but knowing the characteristic of naama means
that one begins to understand the lobha whch is naama.

Is lobha easy to be aware of? What is easy to be aware of?

Nina: Nothing.

Acharn: If there is no awareness of realities as naama and ruupa we
just name a reality dosa. If understanding is not developed of the
characteristic of naama we just call it dosa. Dosa is like dosa,
every day. Lobha is not dosa. Lobha does not have the same
characteristic and function as dosa. When there is no awareness of
them there is still thinking about them. One cannot change the
characteristic of dosa into lobha. When the characteristic of dosa
appears it is still me. That is why understanding of the
characteristic of dosa should be developed whenever it arises, it is
a reality. If there is no study at that moment, we keep on saying
that it is a reality. But  whenever it arses there is no
understanding of it as a characteristic of reality, just one
characteristic. Who is thinking that it is dosa? It is not awareness
of that characteristc. Whenever there is right understanding it is
not you. It develops just little by little.

*******

Nina.