#130000 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:52 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Tep Thank you for the citation of the passage. Obviously, the passage refers only to those who have developed the highest level of pannaa; all these noble elements would have to be accompanied when such individuals penetrate the three characteristics of realities. It concerns with the supermundane realm, which is beyond my grasp. In a more mundane level, I would rather do my best to develop sati/pannaa to start seeing the true nature of realities. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Thomas & Tadao, (Attention: Sarah, Alex) - > > Your conversation on samsaara is interesting! > > >Tadao: When we say that sansaara is dukkha without knowing the true characteristics of this moment, it's tantamount to a mere speculation or, worse, to the proclaim made based merely on pessimism. Repeating billion or zillion times that sansaara is dukkha would not help us see the dukkha-ish nature of this moment. > > >Thomas: Therefore, either 'samsara is dukkha' or 'samsara is linked to dukkha', is not found in SN 56.11, SN 35.21,27, SN 15.3, and the whole collection, SN 15. Anamatagga Samyutta. > ---------- > > T: Trying to match, word by word, the phrase 'samsara is dukkha' to the Suttas might lead to disappointment, I think. Repeating or chanting 'samsara is dukkha' is not going to be fruitful either! In my sincere opinion, a careful reading of the following Buddha's words is going to be fruitful for sure: "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. But when noble virtue is understood & penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood & penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving & attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming." > [AN 4.1, Anubuddha Sutta] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.001.than.html > > May I humbly note that the noble developments that end at noble release(from samsaara) begin with noble virtue? > > Be wise, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > > Hi Tadao, > > > > "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > To me, the phrase of "Sansaara is dukkha" sounds very odd. > > > > > > Arising and falling away of each moment is dukkha. > > > > > #130001 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:38 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. t.sastri Dear Tadao, - I should simply be glad to know if you also understand That the quoted passage nicely lays out the foundation Of the Dhamma for escaping from the samsaara! [Regardless of whether that is one's long-term, or short-term goal.] It is a great & unforgetable message given by the Buddha. Sincerely, Tep ==== > > > > > #130002 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:49 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Hi Tep To be honest, escaping from the round of births and deaths is not a strong motivation of mine for the development of sati/pannaa, but the eradication of defilements is. Take care, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Tadao, - > > I should simply be glad to know if you also understand > That the quoted passage nicely lays out the foundation > Of the Dhamma for escaping from the samsaara! > [Regardless of whether that is one's long-term, or short-term goal.] > > It is a great & unforgetable message given by the Buddha. > > Sincerely, > Tep > ==== > > > > > > > > > > #130003 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:19 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. t.sastri Hi Tadao, - >Tadao: To be honest, escaping from the round of births and deaths is not a strong motivation of mine for the development of sati/pannaa, but the eradication of defilements is. > T: I see. But isn't escape the consequence of (complete) eradication of (all) defilements? Regards, Tep === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Dear Tadao, - > > > > I should simply be glad to know if you also understand > > That the quoted passage nicely lays out the foundation > > Of the Dhamma for escaping from the samsaara! > > [Regardless of whether that is one's long-term, or short-term goal.] > > > > It is a great & unforgetable message given by the Buddha. > > > > Sincerely, > > Tep > > ==== #130004 From: "Nina van Gorkom" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:03 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident nilovg Emailadres: cammelbeeck@... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] > > Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems to have gone well. > > Apparently she'd been visiting Lodewijk's grave site and was walking to the tramway when she fell. People helped and an ambulance took her to hospital. After a few days in hospital, she will go to a rehabilitation centre, probably for a few weeks. She's already started the exercises they've given her. I'm sure she's having excellent treatment and care. > > She told us how she's already told everyone at the hospital that she's going to Thailand and Vietnam in August! Very determined about this. > > We also exchanged a few words about 'this moment', understanding now and how we never know what will happen next. What's happening now will be yesterday tomorrow.... Just different experiences through different sense doors with lots of thinking in between. > > She asked us to send her best wishes to everyone. She may not have computer access for quite some time. > > [As it happens, Jon had quite a nasty fall last week, cut his head and hurt his arm - couldn't move. Fortunately, no bones were broken in his case. We never know what kamma has in store!] > > Metta > > Sarah > > > This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. > ====== > #130005 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:36 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob E (& Tep), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time,.... > .... > S: You are thinking of the The Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN IV.170, or similar. > > We are reading about different accumulations, different kinds of cittas arising by conditions. There is never anyone to develop any factors or to choose what kind of cittas arise in what order. > > Just like now - who can choose whether metta arises next, or lobha, or seeing or right understanding of visible object? > > The Buddha knew all the different natures, dispositions, the 'asaya anusaya' (tendencies) of different cittas and pointed out all the various possibilities. > > However, only one way - that of satipatthana - to reach the goal. I think that being aware of these different orders of develop can help our understanding of what different individuals may need to do to satisfy the requirements of their particular accumulations and tendencies, in order for the path to arise. By showing interest in such things, I don't mean to imply there is any control, but there is an interest in understanding so that we don't mistake the patterns the path can take in different people. Some people may have a propensity to develop samatha which will lead them to the path by that means; and some people may develop sati in everyday life or some may develop satipatthana or jhana in a meditative environment, as was surely the case with the ancient monks. I think that such a sutta makes clear that we should not pre-judge the pattern of development that one or another individual goes through. For instance, those who advocate dry insight seem to look askance at the development of jhana, or at least think it is either unnecessary or highly unlikely. But what if that is exactly the predilection of someone, even today, for instance a modern monk who has the accumulations for this, and may be destined to develop satipatthana using jhana as object? There are Theravin monks like Ajahn Brahmavamso, whatever one may think of him otherwise, who is still alive today and who has cultivated and taught insight within jhana for decades. Meanwhile if that subject comes up it doesn't have any credibility here. My point is just that all these orders of development and aspects of path development laid out by the Buddha should be honored, and that the Buddha took careful and full acknowledgment of these different possibilities, and how they are intertwined or ordered for a given individual in the arising of their cittas. I think we should be correspondingly flexible in our understanding. Of course, in the final analysis, only satipatthana will satisfy the requirements of the path, but how that comes to develop for a given person can be played out in several different ways. Why is this not equally important to the final fact of satipatthana? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #130006 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Brother Tep (and Tadao), Once again, my Good Brother Tep has brought up a very useful sutta. Saadhu! Saadhu! Saadhu! I inserted Paa.li text in support of his efforts. AN 4.1 Anubuddha Sutta: Understanding Eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa vajjiisu viharati bha.n.dagaame. Tatra kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi "bhikkhavo"ti. "Bhadante"ti te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosu.m. Bhagavaa etadavoca I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Vajjians at Bhanda Village. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. ---------- "Catunna.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. Katamesa.m catunna.m? The Blessed One said: "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating four things that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. Which four? ---------- (1) "Ariyassa, bhikkhave, siilassa ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. (1) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble virtue that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. ---------- (2) "Ariyassa, bhikkhave, samaadhissa ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. (2) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble concentration that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. ---------- (3) "Ariyaaya, bhikkhave, pa~n~naaya ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca . (3) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble discernment that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. ---------- (4) "Ariyaaya, bhikkhave, vimuttiyaa ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. (4) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. ---------- "Tayida.m, bhikkhave, ariya.m siila.m anubuddha.m pa.tividdha.m, ariyo samaadhi anubuddho pa.tividdho, ariyaa pa~n~naa anubuddhaa pa.tividdhaa, ariyaa vimutti anubuddhaa pa.tividdhaa, ucchinnaa bhavata.nhaa, khii.naa bhavanetti, natthi daani punabbhavo"ti. "But when noble virtue is understood and penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood and penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving and attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming." ----------- Idamavoca bhagavaa. Ida.m vatvaana sugato athaapara.m etadavoca satthaa "Siila.m samaadhi pa~n~naa ca, vimutti ca anuttaraa; Anubuddhaa ime dhammaa, gotamena yasassinaa. Iti buddho abhi~n~naaya, dhammamakkhaasi bhikkhuna.m; Dukkhassantakaro satthaa, cakkhumaa parinibbuto"ti. That is what the Blessed One said. When the One Well-gone had said that, he--the Teacher--said further: "Unexcelled virtue, concentration, discernment, and release: have been understood by Gotama of glorious stature. Having known them directly, he taught the Dhamma to the monks the Awakened One the Teacher who has put an end to suffering and stress, the One with vision totally unbound." with metta and respect, Han From: Tep Sastri T: Trying to match, word by word, the phrase 'samsara is dukkha' to the Suttas might lead to disappointment, I think. Repeating or chanting 'samsara is dukkha' is not going to be fruitful either! In my sincere opinion, a careful reading of the following Buddha's words is going to be fruitful for sure: "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. But when noble virtue is understood & penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood & penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving & attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming." [AN 4.1, Anubuddha Sutta] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.001.than.html May I humbly note that the noble developments that end at noble release(from samsaara) begin with noble virtue? Be wise, Tep === #130007 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:16 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a, translated by Peter Masefield), about how Bahiya > had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the > Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious > deeds. He had `gone forth' under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva > realms with `morality completely fulfilled'. In fact he had spent one > entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka. > > Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people > after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from > bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as > one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was > completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him > respect. It took a visit by Great Brahma, a former deva companion and an > anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses. > Great Brahma tells him: "You now, though being no arahant, roam about > wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant. > You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to > views." > > Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas, > have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have > attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about > self if they haven't reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in > the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of > being used to `wanting little, contentment and effacement' for a long time > and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and > therefore not experiencing defilements `as a result of abandoning in the > form of suppression'. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a > result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very > dangerous. > > Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta, > it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the > Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha > knew "the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he > will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and > equanimity reasert themselves."< Great story - thanks for filling in the history of Bahiya. I am still interested in clarifying what conditions allow for dry insight. I think we have talked about it before, but I am not too clear. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #130008 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:29 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. t.sastri Dear Brother Han (& Tadao, et al.) - Thank you very much for the 3 Sadhus and, especially, for the Pali text of the Anubuddha Sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya 4. Slowly deciphering the tough Pali text, word by word, is not a pain when the sutta is so good that it conditions gladness (paamojja) in the mind. Maybe "I " was a Burmese who knew a little Pali in a previous life; that's way it has gladdened me, but I still have much difficulties understanding it in this life. Your scheduled surgery operations are on April 17 --just less than 48 hours away. May the operations be a great success, painless, and extend your life span to 100 years! Be brave & happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Brother Tep (and Tadao), > > Once again, my Good Brother Tep has brought up a very useful sutta. > Saadhu! Saadhu! Saadhu! > I inserted Paa.li text in support of his efforts. > > AN 4.1 Anubuddha Sutta: Understanding > > Eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa vajjiisu viharati bha.n.dagaame. Tatra kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi "bhikkhavo"ti. "Bhadante"ti te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosu.m. Bhagavaa etadavoca > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Vajjians at Bhanda Village. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" > "Yes, lord," the monks responded. > ---------- > "Catunna.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. Katamesa.m catunna.m? > > The Blessed One said: "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating four things that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. Which four? > ---------- > (1) "Ariyassa, bhikkhave, siilassa ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. > > (1) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble virtue that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. > ---------- > (2) "Ariyassa, bhikkhave, samaadhissa ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. > > (2) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble concentration that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. > ---------- > (3) "Ariyaaya, bhikkhave, pa~n~naaya ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca . > > (3) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble discernment that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. > ---------- > (4) "Ariyaaya, bhikkhave, vimuttiyaa ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamida.m diighamaddhaana.m sandhaavita.m sa.msarita.m mama~nceva tumhaaka~nca. > > (4) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I. > ---------- > "Tayida.m, bhikkhave, ariya.m siila.m anubuddha.m pa.tividdha.m, ariyo samaadhi anubuddho pa.tividdho, ariyaa pa~n~naa anubuddhaa pa.tividdhaa, ariyaa vimutti anubuddhaa pa.tividdhaa, ucchinnaa bhavata.nhaa, khii.naa bhavanetti, natthi daani punabbhavo"ti. > > "But when noble virtue is understood and penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood and penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving and attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming." > ----------- > Idamavoca bhagavaa. Ida.m vatvaana sugato athaapara.m etadavoca satthaa > > "Siila.m samaadhi pa~n~naa ca, vimutti ca anuttaraa; > Anubuddhaa ime dhammaa, gotamena yasassinaa. > Iti buddho abhi~n~naaya, dhammamakkhaasi bhikkhuna.m; > Dukkhassantakaro satthaa, cakkhumaa parinibbuto"ti. > > That is what the Blessed One said. When the One Well-gone had said that, he--the Teacher--said further: > > "Unexcelled virtue, concentration, > discernment, and release: > have been understood by Gotama of glorious stature. > Having known them directly, > he taught the Dhamma to the monks > the Awakened One > the Teacher who has put an end to suffering and stress, > the One with vision > totally unbound." > > with metta and respect, > Han > #130009 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Brother Tep, Thank you very much for your best wishes. Yes, I will have to be brave. To live a long life is not always a blessing, if it is not free from illnesses. But no one can get away from jaraa and vyaadhi until the mara.na catches us! One can only look at the positive aspect. One more day means one more day for meditation and meritorious deeds even if plagued with illnesses. with metta and respect, Han From: Tep Sastri indriyabala@... Dear Brother Han (& Tadao, et al.) - Thank you very much for the 3 Sadhus and, especially, for the Pali text of the Anubuddha Sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya 4. Slowly deciphering the tough Pali text, word by word, is not a pain when the sutta is so good that it conditions gladness (paamojja) in the mind. Maybe "I " was a Burmese who knew a little Pali in a previous life; that's way it has gladdened me, but I still have much difficulties understanding it in this life. Your scheduled surgery operations are on April 17 --just less than 48 hours away. May the operations be a great success, painless, and extend your life span to 100 years! Be brave & happy, Tep === #130010 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Han We are all blessed with the fact that we were able to encounter the Buddha's teaching in this life. At this advanced stage of my life, I would not have been able to cope with my life without Dhamma. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Brother Tep, >  > Thank you very much for your best wishes. > Yes, I will have to be brave. > To live a long life is not always a blessing, if it is not free from illnesses. > But no one can get away from jaraa and vyaadhi until the mara.na catches us! > One can only look at the positive aspect. > One more day means one more day for meditation and meritorious deeds even if plagued with illnesses. >  > with metta and respect, > Han >  >  > From: Tep Sastri indriyabala@... > >  > Dear Brother Han (& Tadao, et al.) - > > Thank you very much for the 3 Sadhus and, especially, for the Pali text of the Anubuddha Sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya 4. Slowly deciphering the tough Pali text, word by word, is not a pain when the sutta is so good that it conditions gladness (paamojja) in the mind. > Maybe "I " was a Burmese who knew a little Pali in a previous life; that's way it has gladdened me, but I still have much difficulties understanding it in this life. > > Your scheduled surgery operations are on April 17 --just less than 48 hours away. May the operations be a great success, painless, and extend your life span to 100 years! > > Be brave & happy, > Tep > === > > > > #130011 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. sarahprocter... Dear Han, I just saw Tep's detail and your note. Thank you, Tep, for informing us. Han, so sorry to hear you need operations and will be in hospital. Like Tep, we wish you a successful and healthy outcome and many more years to share the Dhamma with us. Please ask your nephew or niece to send a message to the list or to my email account or Tep's to let us know how you are doing. As you say, no one can escape old age and sickenss before death. Wishing you courage to face each moment as it comes with understanding and equanimity. It's good that you realise the value of all kinds of meritorious deeds while there are opportunities. Thank you, Tadao and Tep for sharing some excellent and appropriate suttas. I particularly appreciated the reminders about samsara - endless tears and house-building until the Truths are realised. Best wishes, dear Partner! Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Brother Tep, > > Thank you very much for your best wishes. > Yes, I will have to be brave. > To live a long life is not always a blessing, if it is not free from illnesses. > But no one can get away from jaraa and vyaadhi until the mara.na catches us! > One can only look at the positive aspect. > One more day means one more day for meditation and meritorious deeds even if plagued with illnesses. <...> > From: Tep Sastri indriyabala@... > Your scheduled surgery operations are on April 17 --just less than 48 hours away. May the operations be a great success, painless, and extend your life span to 100 years! .... #130012 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:20 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > If you are able to speak to Nina again, please send her my best wishes for her quick recovery. I hope she will indeed be able to go to Thailand. I am also sorry to hear about Jon's fall and injuries. I hope everyone will be well in the near future! ... S: I will be sending everyone's best wishes to Nina as soon as I have a chance. I'm trying to establish communication with her nephew, as you'll have seen. I do hope it'll be possible for her to use a computer in the rehab centre. Lovely that she had so many birthday wishes so recently from so many friends. It meant a lot to her. Jon's fine - just a small problem with his arm now. His head healed well, so send him lots of challenging posts! .... > > I am not sure why so many things are happening at this time, but I just had a car crash myself, a few days ago -- no injuries at all, just a few scrapes on my hands -- but the car will probably have to be replaced. I hope that this will be the end of the dsg run of accidents for now! ... S: So sorry to hear about your car crash, Rob. As I recall, your wife had a nasty one last year. Kusala and akusala kamma all the time. Very fortunate, no injuries. Seems the cars have the worst kamma, ha ha!! There will always be sicknesses and accidents whilst we're in samsara, but like you, I wish everyone here a good run of good health and avoidance of accidents! Metta Sarah ===== #130013 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Tadao, Thank you very much for your best wishes. I really appreciate it. with metta and respect, Han From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." professortadaomiyamoto@... Dear Han We are all blessed with the fact that we were able to encounter the Buddha's teaching in this life. At this advanced stage of my life, I would not have been able to cope with my life without Dhamma. Best wishes, tadao #130014 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Sarah and Partner, Thank you very much for your best wishes. The operation is a simple one. I will be in the hospital for only two days and one night. But it may take quite some time to recover, at this age with diminished immune system. I will let my friends know as soon as I can sit and work on my computer after the operation. with metta and respect, Han p.s. I am also worried about Nina. I pray for her speedy recovery. From: sarah Dear Han, I just saw Tep's detail and your note. Thank you, Tep, for informing us. Han, so sorry to hear you need operations and will be in hospital. Like Tep, we wish you a successful and healthy outcome and many more years to share the Dhamma with us. Please ask your nephew or niece to send a message to the list or to my email account or Tep's to let us know how you are doing. As you say, no one can escape old age and sickenss before death. Wishing you courage to face each moment as it comes with understanding and equanimity. It's good that you realise the value of all kinds of meritorious deeds while there are opportunities. Thank you, Tadao and Tep for sharing some excellent and appropriate suttas. I particularly appreciated the reminders about samsara - endless tears and house-building until the Truths are realised. Best wishes, dear Partner! Sarah #130015 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:47 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident jagkrit2012 Dear Nina and Jon Hoping both of you get recovery as soon as possible and see you in Bangkok soon. Those who are perfect in virtue and insight. Are established in the Dharma; who speak the truth and fulfill their own duties Them do people hold dear. 217 (from The Dhammapada, translation by Sathienpong Wannapok) Best wishes Jagkrit #130016 From: "connie" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:48 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... nichiconn dear friend, Tep asked: How well have "you" been? I would have to answer: The usual more unwell than not. Short on virtues, long on unintended consequences, but what can we do? "Strive with diligence"... not "do" (diligence or whatnot) but "due" - there's one difficulty - we are always getting in our own way, not the Lord's. Rest assured, I always wish you better, friend - c #130017 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:05 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Han Please take a good care of yourself. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Partner, >  > Thank you very much for your best wishes. >  > The operation is a simple one. I will be in the hospital for only two days and one night. > But it may take quite some time to recover, at this age with diminished immune system. >  > I will let my friends know as soon as I can sit and work on my computer after the operation. >  > with metta and respect, > Han > p.s. I am also worried about Nina. I pray for her speedy recovery. > > From: sarah > > Dear Han, > > I just saw Tep's detail and your note. Thank you, Tep, for informing us. > > Han, so sorry to hear you need operations and will be in hospital. Like Tep, we wish you a successful and healthy outcome and many more years to share the Dhamma with us. Please ask your nephew or niece to send a message to the list or to my email account or Tep's to let us know how you are doing. > > As you say, no one can escape old age and sickenss before death. Wishing you courage to face each moment as it comes with understanding and equanimity. It's good that you realise the value of all kinds of meritorious deeds while there are opportunities. > > Thank you, Tadao and Tep for sharing some excellent and appropriate suttas. I particularly appreciated the reminders about samsara - endless tears and house-building until the Truths are realised. > > Best wishes, dear Partner! > > Sarah > > > #130018 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:20 am Subject: Sa.msaara: To Tep, Sarah, Tadao. hantun1 Dear Brother Tep, Partner Sarah, and Tadao, I have written that sa.msaara is linked not only with dukkha ariya sacca, the first Noble Truth, but also with dukkhasamudaya ariya sacca, the second Noble Truth. I will now expand the scope of sa.msaara and say that it is also linked with forward order of Dependent Origination (pa.ticcasamuppaada.m anuloma.m) from [avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa] up to [bhavapaccayaa jaati, jaatipaccayaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa sambhavanti]. As long as we cannot break this forward order of Dependent Origination we will be roaming endlessly in the sa.msaara. Only when we can realize the reverse order of Dependent Origination (pa.ticcasamuppaada.m pa.tiloma.m) from [avijjaanirodhaa sa"nkhaaranirodho] up to [bhavanirodhaa jaatinirodho, jaatinirodhaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa nirujjhanti] we can be liberated from the sa.msaara. with metta and respect, Han #130019 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:22 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Dear Connie, - Thank you very much for writing me a friendly note that is surprisingly longer than any you ever wrote in the past. I also appreciate your wish --a not-self wholesome intention-- that I be "better". You are right about "striving with diligence": it is the right exertion, or making effort to dispel the kilesas that we all need with "due" diligence. :-) May you be healthy and free from all kinds of trouble, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear friend, > Tep asked: How well have "you" been? > I would have to answer: The usual more unwell than not. Short on virtues, long on unintended consequences, but what can we do? "Strive with diligence"... not "do" (diligence or whatnot) but "due" - there's one difficulty - we are always getting in our own way, not the Lord's. > Rest assured, I always wish you better, friend - > c > > > #130020 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:31 am Subject: Re: Sa.msaara: To Tep, Sarah, Tadao. t.sastri Dear Han, (Sarah, Tadao) - The short note you wrote about the 1st noble truth and 2nd noble truth is the best summary I've seen lately. Sadhu! x 3 for the kind sharing of this knowledge & understanding. Indeed, you summed it very well : "as long as we cannot break this forward order of Dependent Origination we will be roaming endlessly in the sa.msaara". With appreciation, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Brother Tep, Partner Sarah, and Tadao, > > I have written that sa.msaara is linked not only with dukkha ariya sacca, the first Noble Truth, but also with dukkhasamudaya ariya sacca, the second Noble Truth. > > I will now expand the scope of sa.msaara and say that it is also linked with forward order of Dependent Origination (pa.ticcasamuppaada.m anuloma.m) from [avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa] up to [bhavapaccayaa jaati, jaatipaccayaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa sambhavanti]. > > As long as we cannot break this forward order of Dependent Origination we will be roaming endlessly in the sa.msaara. > > Only when we can realize the reverse order of Dependent Origination (pa.ticcasamuppaada.m pa.tiloma.m) from [avijjaanirodhaa sa"nkhaaranirodho] up to [bhavanirodhaa jaatinirodho, jaatinirodhaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa nirujjhanti] we can be liberated from the sa.msaara. > > with metta and respect, > Han > > > #130021 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:57 am Subject: Sarah's Admirable Communication Skill t.sastri Hi Sarah, - You wrote two nice posts. >Sarah (#130011): Han, so sorry to hear you need operations and will be in hospital. ... Wishing you courage to face each moment as it comes with understanding and equanimity. It's good that you realise the value of all kinds of meritorious deeds while there are opportunities. >Sarah (#130012): I'm trying to establish communication with her nephew, as you'll have seen. I do hope it'll be possible for her to use a computer in the rehab centre. ... Jon's fine - just a small problem with his arm now. His head healed well, so send him lots of challenging posts! ... So sorry to hear about your car crash, Rob. As I recall, your wife had a nasty one last year. There will always be sicknesses and accidents whilst we're in samsara, but like you, I wish everyone here a good run of good health and avoidance of accidents! T: I appreciate your communicating about what happened lately and am impressed by the sincere wishes that you have shown towards the suffered members of our group. Warm regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > > I am not sure why so many things are happening at this time, but I just had a car crash myself, a few days ago -- no injuries at all, just a few scrapes on my hands -- but the car will probably have to be replaced. I hope that this will be the end of the dsg run of accidents for now! > ... > There will always be sicknesses and accidents whilst we're in samsara, but like you, I wish everyone here a good run of good health and avoidance of accidents! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #130022 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa.msaara: To Tep, Sarah, Tadao. hantun1 Dear Brother Tep, Thank you very much for your appreciation. with metta and respect, Han From: Tep Sastri Dear Han, (Sarah, Tadao) - The short note you wrote about the 1st noble truth and 2nd noble truth is the best summary I've seen lately. Sadhu! x 3 for the kind sharing of this knowledge & understanding. Indeed, you summed it very well : "as long as we cannot break this forward order of Dependent Origination we will be roaming endlessly in the sa.msaara". With appreciation, Tep === #130023 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:27 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Jon's fine - just a small problem with his arm now. His head healed well, so send him lots of challenging posts! :-) Okay - I'll tell him you sent me after him! > .... > S: So sorry to hear about your car crash, Rob. As I recall, your wife had a nasty one last year. Kusala and akusala kamma all the time. Very fortunate, no injuries. Seems the cars have the worst kamma, ha ha!! Yes, that's pretty lucky! Thanks to the cars for taking most of the impact. > There will always be sicknesses and accidents whilst we're in samsara, but like you, I wish everyone here a good run of good health and avoidance of accidents! For some reason it's always surprising when bad things happen. Remembering that this reality is deeply associated with dukkha is probably a good idea... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #130024 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. jagkrit2012 Dear Khun Han I just know from Khun Tep that: > > Your scheduled surgery operations are on April 17 --just less than 48 hours away. May the operations be a great success, painless, and extend your life span to 100 years. I also wish you have success operation and get recovery very soon. And back to give us valuable suttas in DSG to enjoy and learn again. He who imbibes the Dharma Lives happily with the mind at rest. The wise man ever delights In the Dharma revealed by the Noble. 79 (From The Dhammapada a translation by Sathienpong Wannapok) Best wish Jagkrit #130025 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Khun Jagkrit, Thank you very much. I will be okay and I hope I can continue my posts once I am up and about. with metta and respect, Han From: jagkrit2012 Dear Khun Han I also wish you have success operation and get recovery very soon. And back to give us valuable suttas in DSG to enjoy and learn again. He who imbibes the Dharma Lives happily with the mind at rest. The wise man ever delights In the Dharma revealed by the Noble. 79 (From The Dhammapada a translation by Sathienpong Wannapok) Best wish Jagkrit #130026 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:32 pm Subject: Annie & friends in Hanoi sarahprocter... Dear Annie & Vietnamese friends, Thanks for adding the lively pics of Annie on the bike with Lan & Mai in Hanoi to the DSG meetings album. Pls do add a few more of the lovely ones of you all together, like the one with Tam Bach over lunch and all of you sitting on the floor eating together! How about some very brief summaries of the discussion topics and encounters too? Look forward to hearing anything any of you care to share. So glad to see how welcoming and helpful you've all been to Annie. I knew you would be. Metta Sarah ==== #130027 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:58 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident tadaomiyamot... Dear Rob E. This is not an Abhidhammaic description at all, but when we have a positive attitude to our life, our kamma wouldn't inflict us too much pain. Even at a bad situation, our own invisible hand(s) would guide us to escape from such a situation without much difficulties. (Sorry, probably, ignoring Dhamma, I'm too optimistic.) Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Sarah. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > Jon's fine - just a small problem with his arm now. His head healed well, so send him lots of challenging posts! > > :-) Okay - I'll tell him you sent me after him! > > > .... > > > S: So sorry to hear about your car crash, Rob. As I recall, your wife had a nasty one last year. Kusala and akusala kamma all the time. Very fortunate, no injuries. Seems the cars have the worst kamma, ha ha!! > > Yes, that's pretty lucky! Thanks to the cars for taking most of the impact. > > > There will always be sicknesses and accidents whilst we're in samsara, but like you, I wish everyone here a good run of good health and avoidance of accidents! > > For some reason it's always surprising when bad things happen. Remembering that this reality is deeply associated with dukkha is probably a good idea... > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - > #130028 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:19 pm Subject: audio uploaded, Hua Hin, Jan 2013 sarahprocter... Dear Tony, Vietnamese friends, Lukas & all, We've completed the upload of (edited) discussions from Hua Hin, Jan 2013: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/dsgAudio.html They are in the first section under "editing in progress". We'll continue with the other sets after a little break as we're travelling on Sat. For those who find them helpful - please consider transcribing any short extracts you like and posting them here for others to read and consider. We especially appreciate everyone's support while Nina is unable to post. Metta Sarah ==== #130029 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:50 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident sarahprocter... Dear Tom & Bev, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nsdragonman" wrote: > > Please give her our regards too! We were correcting the draft of ADL and sent her some questions. Usually she replies so promptly so I decided to see if she was posting here! .... S: I'll mention this when we next establish contact. We just tried calling the hospital again, but now she's moved already to the Rehabilitation Centre. I'm hoping she may have the use of a computer there. We'll see. Hope you're both doing well. Are you back in the States? As you'll have seen, I just sent a note to say the Hua Hin discussions have been uploaded. Metta Sarah ====== #130030 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nina Broke Her Hip! sarahprocter... Dear Kanchana, I'm so glad to see you posting here. Your English has always been very good, so don't worry at all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kanchana Chuathong wrote: > Dear Nina and Jon, > Wish both of you get well soon, and may your deep understanding in kamma help you through this difficult time since it must be you, nobody else. Every moment passes away completely and never be back, just once in your life (just like mine 22 years ago). ... S: This is so true - the understanding of kamma helps a lot in difficulties. The result cannot be any other way. Just as it's conditioned now. Even when having an accident like Nina or a very serious one like you had all those years ago, the results are actually just the vipaka cittas and rupas conditioned by kamma. There isn't pain all the time ....just such very brief moments of vipaka cittas, followed by lots of thinking, usually with aversion or attachment. As you say, each moment passes completely and never comes back. There can be understanding and patience at any time at all. You may like to listen to some of the recent recordings we've uploaded too. Metta Sarah p.s. We'll be visiting Bkk in June. Look forward to seeing you then. ============= #130031 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:11 pm Subject: Re: Why is Human life Precious? sarahprocter... Hi Nitesh & Tep, Good to see you, Nitesh! Long time.....are you still living in Nepal? Do re-introduce yourself to those who won't remember you, if you have time. ... > >Nitesh: Why is our life precious? >Tep: Let me guess. Life is precious only because there is clinging. .... S: A good answer - usually we find it precious because of clinging for sure. We can also learn to find it precious as an opportunity for developing understanding and helping others to develop it too. We've all read how rare the human life is and the opportunity for hearing and considering the Buddha's Teachings. Metta Sarah ==== #130032 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:22 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. jonoabb Dear Han --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Brother Han > ... > Your scheduled surgery operations are on April 17 --just less than 48 hours away. May the operations be a great success, painless, and extend your life span to 100 years! > > Be brave & happy, > Tep > === J: Thinking of you and wishing you a speedy recovery from the operation. Jon #130033 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident jonoabb Hi Jagkrit, Tep, Sukin, Tam, Rob E, Azita, Kanchana, Howard and anyone else I may have missed ... Thanks all for your good wishes. I'm making a steady recovery, thanks to intensive physiotherapy on my arm (and also to a thick skull that absorbed much of the fall!!) I hope to be fully operational again in time to hit the water when we get to Sydney this coming weekend :-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear Nina and Jon > > Hoping both of you get recovery as soon as possible and see you in Bangkok soon. > > Those who are perfect in virtue and insight. > Are established in the Dharma; > who speak the truth and fulfill their own duties > Them do people hold dear. 217 > > (from The Dhammapada, translation by Sathienpong Wannapok) > > Best wishes > > Jagkrit J: Many thanks for the inspiring verse. Jon #130034 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Jon, Thank you very much. With the best wishes from my dear friends I am confident that everything will be alright. with metta and respect, Han From: jonoabb jonabbott@... Dear Han J: Thinking of you and wishing you a speedy recovery from the operation. Jon #130035 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:08 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Jon, - > > >J: Thanks for this extract from Ven. Soma's Introduction to the sutta translation. While it may sound good, the real test is whether or not it accords with the Buddha's teaching. > > T: Yes, the real test of a good pudding is in its taste. > =============== J: In the case of a pudding, yes :-)) But taste preferences are purely subjective, and depend on likes and dislikes accumulated in the past. What tastes good to one person may not be the least bit appealing to another. However, the question of whether or not a proposed `practice' accords with the Buddha's teaching is not a subjective one, and can only be determined by careful analysis (based on a correct intellectual understanding -- or of course on direct understanding -- of the teachings). > =============== > >J: In the passage you've quoted the Ven. talks about selecting one of the 4 objects of mindfulness and making it the "preliminary object of contemplation" (an expression he mentions a dozen times or more in his Introduction). I am not aware of any reference in the Pali Canon to such an idea (are you?). > > T: No, I am not either. But, as you know, every vipassana teacher has his/her unique way of teaching. Again, the real test is whether what he/she has taught works in practice for the student. > =============== J: This is an argument used by meditation teachers "just try this technique and you'll see that it works". I don't think the Buddha ever endorsed such an approach; indeed, he cautioned against it. Given a choice between a translator's personal views and the Tipitaka text being translated, I suggest going with the text :-)) ! Jon #130036 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, As Connie suggested, it is the realities, paramattha dhammas that have specific characteristics that can be known, and it is the concepts which are abstract notions. Whatever we read about under kaya-anupassana refers to the understanding of rupas so commonly taken for those abstract notions, such as 'bod', 'hair' and so on. So whilst reflecting on hair, teeth, nails and skin, for example, there can be awareness and understanding that in reality only hardness or temperature is touched, only visible object is seen and so on. ... > >Sarah: When the Buddha taught "sabbe sankhara anicca", sankhara refers to conditioned realities, i.e. namas and rupas or the 5 khandhas. Sankhara does not refer to concepts or ideas, such as people, diamonds and rainbows. Please let me know if you disagree with this. > > T: Yes and no. In the Suttas, using the conventional language, it is clear that a conditioned dhamma --sankhata dhamma, either internal or external, is sankhara. Thus people, roses, diamonds, rainbows, and all natural objects (e.g. mountains, oceans) or man-made objects are sankhara dhamma, although they are not sankhara khandha (mental formation). .... S: Yes, sankhata dhamma are sankhara, whether internal or external. However, these only refer to conditioned elements, ayatanas or khandhas, however classified. For example, Vism XIV: "As to neither less nor more: but why are five aggregates (khandhas), neither less nor more, mentioned by the Blessed One? (a) Because all formed (sankhata) things (dhammaa) that resemble each other fall into these groups, (b) because that is the widest limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self, and c) because of the inclusion by them of the other sorts of aggregates. "When the numerous categories of formed (sankhata) states are grouped together according to similarity, materiality forms one aggregate through being grouped together according to similarity consisting in materiality; feeling....... and so with perception and the other two. So they are stated as five because similar formed things fall into groups...." In the following chapters we also read about how all sankhata dhammas are included in the ayatanas and dhatus. All these categories refer to paramattha dhammas only. .... > In MN 10 the Buddha teaches dhamma-anupassana of rupa as follows: > 'Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away'. > ['Iti ruupa.m, iti ruupassa samudayo, iti ruupassa attha"ngamo'.] > > It is not clear to me how to contemplate a rupa --as an ultimate reality-- through the dhamma-anupassana, Sarah. Can you show me how? ... S: It's never a question of 'how?', but a question about the understanding of what is meant. Now, visible object appears - it is seen. It's a conditioned dhamma, sankhata dhamma, that arises when the conditions are in place and falls away immediately. There has to be very clear understanding of what visible object is and how it is distinct from seeing consciousness. There also has to be clear understanding of many other rupas and namas appearing in a day. Without such understanding, there will never be the very highly developed understanding which understands the arising and falling away of realities. A very firm intellectual right understanding about realities, sankhara dhammas, as anatta has to be developed first. Metta Sarah ==== #130037 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:26 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Tadao), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > >Tep: By the way, any conditioned dhamma is sankhara (all sankhata dhammas are sankhara!). > > >S: So what are dhamma? > T: A research finding about what 'dhamma' means is given below. ... S: Yes, there are many meanings of 'dhamma'. In 'Useful Posts' there is an entire section under "dhamma - meanings". In this context of 'sankhata dhamma', however and in the context of understanding dhammas, it is the khandhas or conditioned dhatus that are referred to. ... > > >S: Are sunrises, diamonds, roses and people 'dhamma' or are they concepts, ideas about what is seen, heard and touched? > > T: They are concepts in the Abhidhamma sense; yet, each of them is legitimate mind object (external ayatana). ... S: Whether in 'the Abhidhamma sense' or the 'Sutta sense', they are concepts about what is seen, heard and touched. They are not external ayatana. The ayatana only refer to dhammas. Dhammayatana includes cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana only. You may be thinking of external arammana (object) of thinking. ... >As such they are dhamma in the looser sense of something known or thought of. They also possessed of the three characteristics that can be contemplated. ... S: I agree that sunrises and roses are thought about - dhammarammana, but not ayatanas. Not sankhara dhammas. They are not real so they cannot be said to have the 3 characteristics (ti-lakkhana) of paramattha dhammas. They can never be directly understood because they are only thought about. ........... S: Many thanks for all your research findings. As Tadao mentioned in another message, it all comes back to what can be known at this very moment. When touching the keyboard, is a keyboard experienced or is it only hardness? Metta Sarah ===== #130038 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:33 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > S: So what are dhamma? Are sunrises, diamonds, roses and people 'dhamma' or are they concepts, ideas about what is seen, heard and touched? > ------------------------------ > HCW: > "Sunrises, diamonds, roses and people" are mental constructs,for sure. But they are perceived and not just randomly thought of. ... S: They are thought of because there are conditions for thinking, perception and other mental factors to arise according to tendencies (and specifically to natural decisive support condition). .... >We can and do, and properly so, distinguish among them, and that is not a random matter but is based on the complexly interrelated 5-sense-door qualities/dhammas that are their basis. To say that they are (just) ideas is, IMO, to underestimate part of the reason that they have such a hold on us. (My opinion.) > ------------------------------ S: Appreciated. Yes, no kind of thinking or memory is 'random'. There are conditions to remember that what is touched and seen now is called a keyboard or a person. Usually, because of a perversion of thinking and perception and view, such ideas are taken for being the realities. What the Buddha taught us was that, in fact, there are only experiences of rupas through the sense doors and there is a lot of thinking and imagining and naming of such through the mind door. Metta Sarah ===== #130039 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident t.sastri Hi Jon, - I am glad to know that you are in such a good spirit and steadily recovering from the accident. I also hope that you will recuperate the bodily strength needed to enjoy the coming weekend. I did not know that a thick skull could be a blessing. :-) Be lucky, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Jagkrit, Tep, Sukin, Tam, Rob E, Azita, Kanchana, Howard and anyone else I may have missed ... > > Thanks all for your good wishes. I'm making a steady recovery, thanks to intensive physiotherapy on my arm (and also to a thick skull that absorbed much of the fall!!) I hope to be fully operational again in time to hit the water when we get to Sydney this coming weekend :-)) > #130040 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:24 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Hi Jon, - You must be a superman to come back and be so active quickly after the accident! >J: What tastes good to one person may not be the least bit appealing to another. T: Yes, you reminded me of Durian, the tasty oriental fruit with a uniquely horrible smell. ............. >J: However, the question of whether or not a proposed `practice' accords with the Buddha's teaching is not a subjective one, and can only be determined by careful analysis (based on a correct intellectual understanding -- or of course on direct understanding -- of the teachings). T: The goal of Dhamma practice (meditation: bhavana --'calling into existence, producing'-- or patipada --path, progress; I like both) is to develop a certain qualities that did not arise or previously were weak. It is true, as you have said, direct understanding (direct knowing) is valuable as a tool to test one's real progess. [What one thinks one sees progress, it may be just an illusion.] ............. >J: This is an argument used by meditation teachers "just try this technique and you'll see that it works". I don't think the Buddha ever endorsed such an approach; indeed, he cautioned against it. T: Very well said, Jon. >J: Given a choice between a translator's personal views and the Tipitaka text being translated, I suggest going with the text :-)) ! T: Again, not surprisingly, I agree with you. There are good exceptions, though. Sincerely, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > #130041 From: "annieaqua" Date: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:34 pm Subject: Hanoi Dhamma Friends annieaqua Dear All I was most fortunate to have been introduced through Sarah to the Dhamma group in Hanoi on the weekend. The hospitality shown to me by my new friends was most humbling and I am so grateful for the experience to be part of the group for a full weekend of discussion. We had discussion on Saturday afternoon and Sunday all day. Tam read translating from english to vietnamese on the go..most impressive. We read the chapters "The Perfection of Determination; of Loving kindness & of Equanimity. We had discussion after about what we read and Tam was most helpful in her explanations of the text. The discussions I also had with other members of the group in an informal way over the delicious food served over the weekend was very beneficial. To be introduced to the teachings in a setting like this was a real highlight for me on my travels. I will cherish the friendships and time I had in Hanoi and look forward to meeting them again in the future. In loving kindness, Annie #130042 From: "connie" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:22 am Subject: Re: Sarah's Admirable Communication Skill nichiconn hahaha, Sarah... no more bad car-ma jokes, please! it's bad vipaka the vehicles undergo when driven by past kamma that proves ruinatious, conventionally speaking, of course. connie #130043 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:31 am Subject: Re: Why is Human life Precious? kanchuu2003 Hello Sarah and Tep! Thank you very much for your response. Let me reintroduce myself. I am Nitesh Dhakal from Nepal. I wanted to know about how rare is a human life and how did we get it. Regards, Nitesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Nitesh & Tep, > > Good to see you, Nitesh! Long time.....are you still living in Nepal? Do re-introduce yourself to those who won't remember you, if you have time. > ... > > >Nitesh: Why is our life precious? > > >Tep: Let me guess. Life is precious only because there is clinging. > .... > S: A good answer - usually we find it precious because of clinging for sure. > > We can also learn to find it precious as an opportunity for developing understanding and helping others to develop it too. We've all read how rare the human life is and the opportunity for hearing and considering the Buddha's Teachings. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > #130044 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:42 am Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Tep)- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, - > > > > >J: Thanks for this extract from Ven. Soma's Introduction to the sutta translation. While it may sound good, the real test is whether or not it accords with the Buddha's teaching. > > > > T: Yes, the real test of a good pudding is in its taste. > > =============== > > J: In the case of a pudding, yes :-)) > > But taste preferences are purely subjective, and depend on likes and dislikes accumulated in the past. What tastes good to one person may not be the least bit appealing to another. > > However, the question of whether or not a proposed `practice' accords with the Buddha's teaching is not a subjective one, and can only be determined by careful analysis (based on a correct intellectual understanding -- or of course on direct understanding -- of the teachings). > > > =============== > > >J: In the passage you've quoted the Ven. talks about selecting one of the 4 objects of mindfulness and making it the "preliminary object of contemplation" (an expression he mentions a dozen times or more in his Introduction). I am not aware of any reference in the Pali Canon to such an idea (are you?). > > > > T: No, I am not either. But, as you know, every vipassana teacher has his/her unique way of teaching. Again, the real test is whether what he/she has taught works in practice for the student. > > =============== > > J: This is an argument used by meditation teachers "just try this technique and you'll see that it works". I don't think the Buddha ever endorsed such an approach; indeed, he cautioned against it. ----------------------------- HCW: Hmmm - don't try, but take merely on faith? Remember "ehipassiko," Jon? :-) ---------------------------- > > Given a choice between a translator's personal views and the Tipitaka text being translated, I suggest going with the text :-)) ! > > Jon > ============================== With metta, Howard Ehipassiko /Well proclaimed by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, realizable here and now, possessed of immediate result, bidding you come and see, accessible and knowable individually by the wise./ (From MN 7) #130045 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:01 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hi Sarah (& Connie), - I understand that a paramattha dhamma has identifiable basic or inherent features (sabhava), while a concept(pa~n~natti) does not. But "those abstract notions, such as 'body', 'hair' and so on" are not rubbish; they are very valuable for kammatthana bhavana such as kayagata-sati and kaya-anupassana (the first of the four kinds of anupassana that are called Satipatthana meditation), without any doubt. The Vism has one chapter on foulness as meditation subject and also discuss kayagatasati ; VIII, 42 - VIII, 145. >S: So whilst reflecting on hair, teeth, nails and skin, for example, there can be awareness and understanding that in reality only hardness or temperature is touched, only visible object is seen and so on. T: It depends on each individual's preference. The value of an anupassana or "reflection" is measured by the real (versus perceived) benefit to be realized by the individual, I think. >S: Yes, sankhata dhamma are sankhara, whether internal or external. However, these only refer to conditioned elements, ayatanas or khandhas, however classified. T: And you kindly gave a quoted passage from Vism XIV to say all sankhata dhammas "fall into" the five aggregates. Yes, head hair, nails, body parts fall into the 'form aggregate' too. And the external rupas, such as roses, diamonds, bodies, mountains, they are external form-aggregate too, aren't they? However, we have to be careful about (unintentionally) mixing up inherent features (sabhava) of a dhamma with the 'sammuti sacca'. This danger arises when a speaker (unintentionally?) switches back-and-forth between the ultimates and the conventionals! ............ > >T: It is not clear to me how to contemplate a rupa --as an ultimate reality-- through the dhamma-anupassana, Sarah. Can you show me how? >S: It's never a question of 'how?', but a question about the understanding of what is meant. Now, visible object appears - it is seen. It's a conditioned dhamma, sankhata dhamma, that arises when the conditions are in place and falls away immediately. T: It is clear by reasoning, not by realizing through direct knowing, that "visible object appears - it is seen" and that "it's a conditioned dhamma, sankhata dhamma, that arises when the conditions are in place". But it is not possible without 'yathabhutam pajanati' to directly know that sankhata dhamma arises and falls away immediately. It is easier imo to directly know when an in-breath or an out-breath arises and falls away. A breath isn't a paramattha dhamma, yet the Buddha strongly recommends Anapanasati as a major meditation method. >S: A very firm intellectual right understanding about realities, sankhara dhammas, as anatta has to be developed first. T: Thanks! I absolutely agree with that. The question is : when direct knowing must be developed through appropriate samatha-vipassana bhavana, if not now. Be happy, Tep === #130046 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:38 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hi Sarah (& Tadao), - I appreciate your energy and enthusisam. 1. >S: In this context of 'sankhata dhamma', however and in the context of understanding dhammas, it is the khandhas or conditioned dhatus that are referred to. The ayatana only refer to dhammas. Dhammayatana includes cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana only. T: Okay. I'll keep such Abhidhamma definitions in mind for our future communication. 2. >S: I agree that sunrises and roses are thought about - dhammarammana, but not ayatanas. Not sankhara dhammas. They are not real so they cannot be said to have the 3 characteristics (ti-lakkhana) of paramattha dhammas. They can never be directly understood because they are only thought about. T: Then you also disagree with bhikkhu Bodhi's interpretation of sankhara, the third category. "As bare formations, sankharas include all five aggregates, not just the fourth. The term also includes external objects and situations such as mountains, fields, and forests; towns and cities; food and drink; jewelry, cars, and computers." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_43.html 3. >S: When touching the keyboard, is a keyboard experienced or is it only hardness? T: I remember having seen this kind of question so many times before. :-) If you close your eyes, yes. Be tolerant, Tep === #130047 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:06 am Subject: Conventional still matters truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:So whilst reflecting on hair, teeth, nails and skin, for example, >there can be awareness and understanding that in reality only >hardness or temperature is touched, only visible object is seen and >so on. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a rough question: If a person kills a man, then it is bad kamma. If that man happens to be one's father, then it is not just bad kamma, it is heinous kamma. Big difference. If only paramattha dhammas have characteristics, and if only paramattha dhammas exist - then: Question 1: what paramattha dhamma is "one's father"? Question 2: Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta? With best wishes, Alex #130048 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:24 am Subject: Re: Conventional still matters kenhowardau Hi Alex and Sarah, --- > >S:So whilst reflecting on hair, teeth, nails and skin, for example, >there can be awareness and understanding that in reality only >hardness or temperature is touched, only visible object is seen and >so on. > A: I have a rough question: > If a person kills a man, then it is bad kamma. > If that man happens to be one's father, then it is not just bad kamma, it is heinous kamma. Big difference. > > If only paramattha dhammas have characteristics, and if only paramattha dhammas exist - then: > > Question 1: what paramattha dhamma is "one's father"? > > Question 2: Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta? ---- KH: I'd like to jump in here because this is one of my weak points. This how I think the answer might go: To paraphrase the Vism: `Mere killing exists; no killer is found and no person is killed.' The killing that `exists' is a strongly akusala cetana-cetasika, arising in a strongly akusala citta. There does, however, need to be a *concept* of a person to be killed. There needs to be a concept of a murderous activity, and there needs to be a concept of the victim's resulting death. That sort of akusala cetana can arise only when there are those sorts of concept. So a murder will involve many moments of akusala citta, with many concepts being conceived. The same applies to the question of murdering one's father. In reality there is nothing more than strong (exceptionally strong) akusala citta. In this case, however, there needs to be the concept of a person who can be killed *only by exceptionally strong akusala.* Ken H #130049 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident epsteinrob Hi Tadao. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Rob E. > > This is not an Abhidhammaic description at all, but when we have a positive attitude to our life, our kamma wouldn't inflict us too much pain. > > Even at a bad situation, our own invisible hand(s) would guide us to escape from such a situation without much difficulties. > > (Sorry, probably, ignoring Dhamma, I'm too optimistic.) > > Best wishes, > > tadao Thanks much for your optimistic thoughts! :-) I appreciate them, and I think that like you whenever one cultivates a positive attitude, it may not change the vipaka, but the view of it can maybe be lighter. I think this corresponds to one of my favorite metaphors in Dhamma, the Buddha's "second arrow." Psychospiritual suffering - the way we react to things - is a different order of dukkha than the initial experience, even if it is unpleasant. Sarah has spoken about the three different kinds of dukkha a few weeks ago - I haven't kept track of it well enough, but it distinguished between these things a little bit better... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #130050 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:25 am Subject: Re: Conventional still matters upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex & Sarah) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Alex and Sarah, > > --- > > >S:So whilst reflecting on hair, teeth, nails and skin, for example, >there can be awareness and understanding that in reality only >hardness or temperature is touched, only visible object is seen and >so on. > > > > A: I have a rough question: > > If a person kills a man, then it is bad kamma. > > If that man happens to be one's father, then it is not just bad kamma, it is heinous kamma. Big difference. > > > > If only paramattha dhammas have characteristics, and if only paramattha dhammas exist - then: > > > > Question 1: what paramattha dhamma is "one's father"? > > > > Question 2: Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta? > ---- > > KH: I'd like to jump in here because this is one of my weak points. This how I think the answer might go: > > To paraphrase the Vism: `Mere killing exists; no killer is found and no person is killed.' > > The killing that `exists' is a strongly akusala cetana-cetasika, arising in a strongly akusala citta. > > There does, however, need to be a *concept* of a person to be killed. There needs to be a concept of a murderous activity, and there needs to be a concept of the victim's resulting death. That sort of akusala cetana can arise only when there are those sorts of concept. > > So a murder will involve many moments of akusala citta, with many concepts being conceived. > > The same applies to the question of murdering one's father. In reality there is nothing more than strong (exceptionally strong) akusala citta. In this case, however, there needs to be the concept of a person who can be killed *only by exceptionally strong akusala.* > > Ken H > ================================ There also needs to be specific rupas that constitute the killing, a.k.a. "the actions" and also called the kamma-patha. Without this, there is only thinking and intending, i.e., there is only incompleted kamma. With metta, Howard #130051 From: Tam Bach Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hanoi Dhamma Friends tambach Dear Annie, You forgot to mention the bike. Wasn't it a fun part? A: I was most fortunate to have been introduced through Sarah to the Dhamma group in Hanoi on the weekend. ---------- Tam B: It was lovely to have you with us all that time, Annie ! A: We had discussion on Saturday afternoon and Sunday all day.... ------------ Tam B: Beside discussing the texts, we also talked about the unsatisfactoriness of pleasant feeling that we all run after. We discussed about wholesomeness and unwholesomeness - how widespread this subject is misunderstood. We also talked about non-control - realities arising by its own condition, and about how right understanding conditions all kind of wholesomeness - the natural way. There was also mentioning of seeing now, touching now, liking now...to be understood as it is. Annie also helped us to understand some difficult English words. A: To be introduced to the teachings in a setting like this was a real highlight for me on my travels. --------------------- Tam B: We appreciated so much your openness and investigative quality. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to discuss the Dhamma that way, and we do hope you will keep on considering about it. A: I will cherish the friendships and time I had in Hanoi and look forward to meeting them again in the future. -------------------- Tam B: So do we! With loving kindness, too Tam B and friends #130052 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: Hanoi Dhamma Friends sarahprocter... Dear Annie, Thank you for finding the time to give your lovely update here. It sounds as though our friends in Hanoi really gave you a wonderful time with lots of useful discussion too. We also cherish their friendship. Like you say, Tam's translation and simultaneous interpreter skills are most impressive as is her friendly way of sharing the Dhamma. Remember, whether with friends or travelling alone, in fact the mind consciousness (citta) is always alone. Born alone, die alone and in between, see alone, hear alone, think alone! Usually, there's always searching for craving as the mate, but for the wise, there is living alone with whatever consciousness arises with equanimity. Please keep sharing your reflections and questions. Metta Sarah p.s your biking adventures remind me of when Jon and I used to bike around Phuket and other Thai islands. In those days, we didn't wear helmets, but there was hardly any traffic either. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "annieaqua" wrote: > > Dear All > > I was most fortunate to have been introduced through Sarah to the Dhamma group in Hanoi on the weekend. > > The hospitality shown to me by my new friends was most humbling and I am so grateful for the experience to be part of the group for a full weekend of discussion. <....> #130053 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: Conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I'd like to jump in here because this is one of my weak points. This how I think the answer might go: > > To paraphrase the Vism: `Mere killing exists; no killer is found and no person is killed.' > > The killing that `exists' is a strongly akusala cetana-cetasika, arising in a strongly akusala citta. > > There does, however, need to be a *concept* of a person to be killed. There needs to be a concept of a murderous activity, and there needs to be a concept of the victim's resulting death. That sort of akusala cetana can arise only when there are those sorts of concept. > > So a murder will involve many moments of akusala citta, with many concepts being conceived. > > The same applies to the question of murdering one's father. In reality there is nothing more than strong (exceptionally strong) akusala citta. In this case, however, there needs to be the concept of a person who can be killed *only by exceptionally strong akusala.* Although I am sure it will terrify you, I am in accord with your description and think it is very clear. Certain concepts will excite very powerful cetana, such as the cultural image of father and mother. I say "cultural" because the meaning of such concepts will vary in ways from one culture to another. Likewise, the hatred of such a concept, and esp. hatred that is so strong that it moves to kill such an image, such as killing of a revered figure - a father or mother - must necessarily involve an intense level of akusala cetana, and this explains the greater kamma that accrues. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #130054 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:28 pm Subject: Re: Conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > The same applies to the question of murdering one's father. In reality there is nothing more than strong (exceptionally strong) akusala citta. In this case, however, there needs to be the concept of a person who can be killed *only by exceptionally strong akusala.* > > > > Ken H > > > ================================ > There also needs to be specific rupas that constitute the killing, a.k.a. "the actions" and also called the kamma-patha. Without this, there is only thinking and intending, i.e., there is only incompleted kamma. This is true - there have been two explanations for this. The "cetana-only" explanation is that only intense enough cetana to cause the action to take place will cause those rupas of killing to arise; and that it is this super-intense cetana that causes the kamma. The "rupa-inclusive" explanation says that the physicalization of cetana into physical form - the arising of the rupas of the killing - is itself a cause of the additionally strong kamma. I would say roughly that Sarah and Ken H. and others would be in the "cetana-only" group, and that you would be in the "rupa-inclusive" group. I am probably in the rupa-inclusive group too - have been in the past - but now a little uncertain. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #130055 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:33 pm Subject: Nina update sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Just spoke very briefly to Nina at the Rehabilitation Centre she's been moved to. She said it's difficult - a big test of patience. She's still bed-ridden and long waits for assistance, physio etc. Lots of patients, not enough staff. I asked if she was considering having a laptop Lodewijk used to use brought in, but she thought it was too difficult. She'd wanted her nephew to send me her series from Thailand, but I've not received anything. In any case, it can wait until her return. The call was cut very short when someone came to attend to her, so I just quickly sent everyone's best wishes. Metta Sarah ===== #130056 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:59 pm Subject: Re: Nina update jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah Thank you very much for the update news of Nina. I have my fingers cross that this difficult time of Nina pasess away as soon as possible. Best wishes Jagkrit #130057 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Nina update tadaomiyamot... Dear Sarah Thank you for the update. She is not a winning person; so when she says a lot of patient, it means that the hospital services are not up to the level she wanted to be. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Just spoke very briefly to Nina at the Rehabilitation Centre she's been moved to. She said it's difficult - a big test of patience. She's still bed-ridden and long waits for assistance, physio etc. Lots of patients, not enough staff. I asked if she was considering having a laptop Lodewijk used to use brought in, but she thought it was too difficult. > > She'd wanted her nephew to send me her series from Thailand, but I've not received anything. In any case, it can wait until her return. > > The call was cut very short when someone came to attend to her, so I just quickly sent everyone's best wishes. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > > > #130058 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:25 pm Subject: Re: Nina update tadaomiyamot... Sorry, I made a mistake with my English spelling: "winning"; please replace it with "difficult." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Sarah > > Thank you for the update. > > She is not a winning person; so when she says a lot of patient, it means that > the hospital services are not up to the level she wanted to be. > > tadao > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Just spoke very briefly to Nina at the Rehabilitation Centre she's been moved to. She said it's difficult - a big test of patience. She's still bed-ridden and long waits for assistance, physio etc. Lots of patients, not enough staff. I asked if she was considering having a laptop Lodewijk used to use brought in, but she thought it was too difficult. > > > > She'd wanted her nephew to send me her series from Thailand, but I've not received anything. In any case, it can wait until her return. > > > > The call was cut very short when someone came to attend to her, so I just quickly sent everyone's best wishes. > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ===== > > > > > > > #130059 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident tadaomiyamot... Dear Rob E. Most of the times, we hart our selves with our own defilements. This is rather a personal matter, but after coming back from Bangkok, I've found out that one guy had defrauded me; hence, I've lost a fair amount of money. Initially, there was a large amount of dosa. But I've learnt that all I have to do was cut my food bills. Even though the amount of my food bills was cut by almost 80%, the intake of my nutritional values have not changed at all. (Basically less indulgence to food.) The point is that it's just vipaaka, I cannot negotiate with my own vipaaka; all I can do is be positive and develop sati/paanaa with a fair dose of yoniso-manasikaara. There is no reason to hurt myself with the second/third/fourth arrows. Take care, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tadao. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Dear Rob E. > > > > This is not an Abhidhammaic description at all, but when we have a positive attitude to our life, our kamma wouldn't inflict us too much pain. > > > > Even at a bad situation, our own invisible hand(s) would guide us to escape from such a situation without much difficulties. > > > > (Sorry, probably, ignoring Dhamma, I'm too optimistic.) > > > > Best wishes, > > > > tadao > > Thanks much for your optimistic thoughts! :-) I appreciate them, and I think that like you whenever one cultivates a positive attitude, it may not change the vipaka, but the view of it can maybe be lighter. I think this corresponds to one of my favorite metaphors in Dhamma, the Buddha's "second arrow." Psychospiritual suffering - the way we react to things - is a different order of dukkha than the initial experience, even if it is unpleasant. > > Sarah has spoken about the three different kinds of dukkha a few weeks ago - I haven't kept track of it well enough, but it distinguished between these things a little bit better... > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = > #130060 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:28 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_006 (DT 893 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Vipassanaa is a practice that needs a lot of energy in the form of viiriya. Viiriya is the core dhamma for sammaa-vaayaama. It appears in the name of sammappadhaana. Without effort or energy vipassanaa will not be a true one. Examples are fancy-thinkings of those who digested abhidhamma which they never encounter with their own panna-eye. Viriiya also works as iddhipaada, which is a bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Iddhi means accomplishment. Paada means 'cause' 'foot'. So without viiriya there will not be iddhipaada and also there will not be bala, indriya, bojjhanga and magganga. Viiriya is necessary for vipassanaa. Viiriya alone is not effective to arise vipassanaa. Sati or mondfulness is required in this case. Sati also appears in many sections of factors of enlightenment or bojjhanga (bodhi + anga). When there is viiriya and sati then there arises samaadhi. Samaadhi has different levels. There is even samaadhi of dismerit or akusala. It is micchaa-samaadhi. After exclusion of micchaa-samaadhi there are different levels of samaadhi. Vipassanaa samaadhi is almost equal to magga-samaadhi even though vipassanaa is not powerful enough to cut off anusaya or potential kilesa. Viriiya, sati, and samaadhi are part of working-magganga. These 3 maggangas are led by samma-sa`nkappa and sammaa-di.t.thi. All these 5 are called karaka-magganga or workers-path-components. When in vipassanaa there always are these 5 dhammas. If not then the practice is not vipassanaa. Although these 5 are described 3 virati-dhammas have to be foregoing. They are sammaa-vaacaa, samma-kammanta, and sammaa-aajiiva. Even though they are not powerful enough as in magga citta these have to go before vipassanaa. With described 5 magganga there will arise naama-ruupa-pariccheda naana. It is also called naamaa-ruupa-vavatthaana naana. This is 'va'. If there is 'va' then there is possible for 'vi' or 'vipassanaa' to arise. If someone ever sees naamaa or ruupa with their own pannaa-eye then he or she has reached the foot of the mountain and ready to climb vipassanaa-mountain. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #130061 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:41 pm Subject: Re: Discussion with Annie & Pt ptaus1 Hi Sarah and Jon, Thanks for your replies and corrections on samatha objects and practice. I still can't quite make sense of one thing, though I'm not sure I can quite form the question - why can't there be an "ordinary daily life moment" of awareness with samatha kind of panna which is unrelated to actual samatha objects? What I mean is a moment of samatha bhavana (so not dana and not sila and not vipassana), which is unconnected to official samatha development objects that Jon mentioned with reference to Vsm. What I mean is perhaps like a moment when something is seen and perceived in daily life, like (a concept of) a cake for example, but there's no attachment to such concept, in other words there's a sort of kusala "calm awareness" of the fact that it's a perception/concept, so with samatha sort of panna (which I guess makes it samatha bhavana), but the object is not a kasina, nor a dhamma (as we're not talking about vipassana here), nor a ... well, it's clear its a perception/concept, but it's not clung to. This is probably not making much sense. Anyway, my point being that this sort of ordinary moments would be a precursor to actual samatha bhavana with an official object for samatha later on. I mean, I assume nobody can jump straight into fullon samatha bhavana with actual official objects until at least some sort of "ordinary" moments of samatha bhavana happened (like my cake thing) and it became clear what is a moment with sati as opposed to a moment without sati (still speaking samatha-related only like outside a sasana)? Best wishes pt #130062 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:45 am Subject: Singala : The Lucky Brahman yawares1 Dear members, This Wednesday morning..I've an amazing story to share with you all: Please click: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=16232 Miss you all, yawares #130063 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:49 am Subject: Re: Nina update epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Just spoke very briefly to Nina at the Rehabilitation Centre she's been moved to. She said it's difficult - a big test of patience. She's still bed-ridden and long waits for assistance, physio etc. Lots of patients, not enough staff. I asked if she was considering having a laptop Lodewijk used to use brought in, but she thought it was too difficult. > > She'd wanted her nephew to send me her series from Thailand, but I've not received anything. In any case, it can wait until her return. > > The call was cut very short when someone came to attend to her, so I just quickly sent everyone's best wishes. Thanks Sarah - sounds like it is difficult but that Nina is doing pretty well, all things considered - I am glad to hear that! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #130064 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:51 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident epsteinrob Hi Tadao. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Rob E. > > Most of the times, we hart our selves with our own defilements. > > This is rather a personal matter, but after coming back from Bangkok, > I've found out that one guy had defrauded me; hence, I've lost a > fair amount of money. Initially, there was a large amount of dosa. > > But I've learnt that all I have to do was cut my food bills. > Even though the amount of my food bills was cut by almost 80%, > the intake of my nutritional values have not changed at all. > (Basically less indulgence to food.) > > The point is that it's just vipaaka, I cannot negotiate with my own vipaaka; > all I can do is be positive and develop sati/paanaa with a fair dose of > yoniso-manasikaara. There is no reason to hurt myself with the second/third/fourth arrows. Thanks for your good example and positive attitude! Still, I am sorry you had this difficulty. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #130065 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:25 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident tadaomiyamot... Dear Rob: I do not treat my current situation a difficulty. I've been rather enjoying the simpler way of life. The point I wanted to make with my previous posting was that vipaakas are vipaakas. We cannot change them in the way we like. If it is the case, then, it's better not upset ourselves with these. To be better yet is to be aware of the moments of vipaaka and the moments of akusala (and kusala) since the awareness would tell us that everything is a mere story. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tadao. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Dear Rob E. > > > > Most of the times, we hart our selves with our own defilements. > > > > This is rather a personal matter, but after coming back from Bangkok, > > I've found out that one guy had defrauded me; hence, I've lost a > > fair amount of money. Initially, there was a large amount of dosa. > > > > But I've learnt that all I have to do was cut my food bills. > > Even though the amount of my food bills was cut by almost 80%, > > the intake of my nutritional values have not changed at all. > > (Basically less indulgence to food.) > > > > The point is that it's just vipaaka, I cannot negotiate with my own vipaaka; > > all I can do is be positive and develop sati/paanaa with a fair dose of > > yoniso-manasikaara. There is no reason to hurt myself with the second/third/fourth arrows. > > Thanks for your good example and positive attitude! Still, I am sorry you had this difficulty. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - > #130066 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:01 am Subject: spot the similarity :once someone believes an action , procedure works rjkjp1 they will not give it up. and will invest huge resources in it. http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/03/a-cardiac-conundrum #130067 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:35 am Subject: Re: Conventional still matters kenhowardau Hi Robert E, -------- >> RE: - there have been two explanations for this. The "cetana-only" explanation is that only intense enough cetana to cause the action to take place will cause those rupas of killing to arise; and that it is this super-intense cetana that causes the kamma. --------- KH: I wonder if you could remind me of the previous "cetana only" explanation. This is a genuine request, not a rhetorical one. :-) Were the "rupas of killing" that you refer to bodily intimation rupas? You imply that the kamma lies in rupas that are caused by cetana. I think you are mistaken there. I am sure the kamma (the action) is entirely cetana. --------------- > RE: The "rupa-inclusive" explanation says that the physicalization of cetana into physical form - the arising of the rupas of the killing - is itself a cause of the additionally strong kamma. --------------- KH: I had assumed that all theories of physicalization were based on a belief in sentient beings. I assumed you were trying to link conditioned reality with conventional reality (showing how bodies and guns etc., were made of rupas). Was I wrong? Are you simply linking cetana with bodily-intimation rupas? Ken H #130068 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Re: spot the similarity :once someone believes an action , procedure works t.sastri Hi RobertK, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > they will not give it up. and will invest huge resources in it. http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/03/a-cardiac-conundrum > They even invest huger resources in the weapons and space systems. Please also look at the gigantic national deficits, exponentially increasing year after year!! Tep === #130069 From: "connie" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:10 am Subject: conventional still matters nichiconn dear friend, Question 2: Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta? Expositor: The three Pi.takas are respectively spoken of as teachings of authority, of popular philosophy, and of metaphysical truths; or as instruction according to misconduct, according to circumstance, and according to states; or again, as discourses of trivial or serious restraint, of the refutation of heretical views, and of the distinction between mind and matter. And herein the Vinaya-Pi.taka, taught generally with authority by the Blessed One who was fit to give authority, is said to be a teaching of authority; the Sutta-Pi.taka, taught generally concerning popular ethics, is called teachings of regular philosophy; and the Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, taught generally concerning things in their ultimate sense by the Blessed One, who was skilled in ultimate truths, is called teaching in ultimate truths. Likewise, the first, i.e., Vinaya, instructs grave offenders according to their respective misdeeds, and is called instruction given concerning such; the second, i.e., Sutta-Pi.taka, is adapted to various wishes, latent tendencies, traits of character, resolutions, and is called instruction adapted to circumstance; and the third, i.e., Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, instructs, according to states, those persons who imagine a self in the ultimate sense in mere collocations of things, saying, 'This is I; that is mine,' and is called instruction given in accordance with states. Similarly, the first is called a discourse of restraint and control, because therein are given discourses on grave or trivial restraint as opposed to transgression. 'Restraint and control' mean restraint big and small,^1 like acts big and small; fruits big and small. The second is called a discourse on the refutation of heretical views, because therein is unrolled the coil of the sixty-two heresies. {see Dialogues i, first Suttanta} The third is called a discourse on the distinction between mind and matter, because therein is discourse of that distinction in its ethical connection, etc. And in the three Pi.takas, the threefold training, the threefold riddance and the fourfold profundity are to be understood: morality treated specially in the Vinaya-Pi.taka is the unique training in virtue; consciousness treated specially in the Suttanta-Pi.taka is the unique higher training in higher mental training; philosophy treated specially in the Abhidhamma-Pi.taka is the unique training in higher or metaphysical understanding. In the Vinaya-Pi.taka [22] the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions; in the Suttanta-Pi.taka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions is meant, because concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny; in the Abhidhamma-Pi.taka the riddance of latent bias is meant because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Pi.taka there is a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various factors of morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of discarding and extirpating by the Path. In the first Pi.taka the riddance is of the corruption of misconduct; in the others it is of the corruption of craving and wrong views. And in each of them, the fourfold profundity, viz., of the doctrine, of the meaning, of the exposition, and of intuition, should be understood. {p27 n1: 'Big' restraint includes the Paaraajika's and Sa"nghaadisesa's of the Vinaya (vol.iii); the rest are 'small.' -Tr.} peace, connie #130070 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:46 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident epsteinrob Hi Tadao. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Rob: > > I do not treat my current situation a difficulty. I've been rather enjoying > the simpler way of life. > > The point I wanted to make with my previous posting was that vipaakas are vipaakas. > We cannot change them in the way we like. If it is the case, then, it's better not upset > ourselves with these. To be better yet is to be aware of the moments of vipaaka and the moments of akusala (and kusala) since the awareness would tell us that everything > is a mere story. > > Best wishes, > tadao Very good Tadao - thanks for your wise thoughts. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #130071 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:05 pm Subject: Re: Conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > -------- > >> RE: - there have been two explanations for this. The "cetana-only" > explanation is that only intense enough cetana to cause the action to take place will cause those rupas of killing to arise; and that it is this super-intense cetana that causes the kamma. > --------- > > KH: I wonder if you could remind me of the previous "cetana only" explanation. This is a genuine request, not a rhetorical one. :-) When I was discussing kamma-patha with Sarah and others a while back, she indicated that the greater kamma/worse vipaka that results from killing does not occur because of the physical act, but because of the akusala cetana, which must be much stronger to "kill someone." I do assume that when someone is experiencing "killing someone" what is really happening is that they are causing certain rupas to arise and they are experiencing certain accompanying concepts. When the cittas of what we call the "other person" experiences "being killed" they are experiencing some rupas arising and some cittas as well, culminating in the "death citta." But I don't know much more about it beyond that - I have been trying to get a more detailed understanding of how kamma-patha occurs, but don't have a great sense of the details so far. What I do know from scriptural material is that the three levels of kamma-patha are successively more severe, as it moves from mental activity to verbal activity to physical action. The point of the "cetana-only" argument is that in these successively more severe kammas, the reason for the severity is the greater akusala of the cetana, *not* the fact that they are spoken or physical per se. But the idea is that it takes greater akusala to cause speech rupas or physical action rupas to arise. I hope that all makes some sense... > Were the "rupas of killing" that you refer to bodily intimation rupas? I am not smart enough to know whether those rupas are involved. I am assuming that what we call a physical act is a concept that overlays the real physical rupas that are arising. It's not the "murder breaks down into rupas." It's more like "what we mistakenly conceptualize as murder" has a real sequence of rupas arising that we cannot perceive. Instead we are perceiving the concept. > You imply that the kamma lies in rupas that are caused by cetana. No, I am saying that in this version of kamma the opposite is the case. In this version of kamma all the kamma is caused by the degree of akusala cetana. It is just that a higher degree of kusala is associated with the physical realization of the kamma-patha. I think you are mistaken there. I am sure the kamma (the action) is entirely cetana. That is what I said you would believe, along with Sarah and others. I am still a little confused myself, but I am at least partially tending in this direction. However, I still have some questions and confusions about this. > --------------- > > RE: The "rupa-inclusive" explanation says that the physicalization of cetana into physical form - the arising of the rupas of the killing - is itself a cause of the additionally strong kamma. > --------------- > > KH: I had assumed that all theories of physicalization were based on a belief in sentient beings. Well it is true that the concept of being involved does bring out the different degrees of akusala kamma-patha in negative acts, such as the murder of an ant versus the murder of a human, versus the murder of one's father or mother, versus the murder of an arahant. In each case, the more highly revered concept entails a much higher degree of akusala in order to not only *want* to kill that "person" but to actually "carry out the act." You may interpret "carrying out the act" as a concept too if you like, though I currently see it as the arising of associated rupas along with the experience of "killing" but in any case physical kamma-patha is defined in the "killing of a being," even though that is a concept, and that killing of a being entails the very worst kamma, because the killing of a being entails the greatest cetana. > I assumed you were trying to link conditioned reality with conventional reality (showing how bodies and guns etc., were made of rupas). Was I wrong? Are you simply linking cetana with bodily-intimation rupas? I'm not too familiar with bodily-intimation rupas, so perhaps I'm not clear enough to know what I am exactly implying. My understanding is not too detailed so far, so the above description I have given represents it the best I can at present. I am not seeing the concept of "a person" as being real, but I am seeing "the concept of killing the concept of a person" as a thought-process that entails extremely akusala cetana, extremely akusala kamma. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #130072 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:25 pm Subject: accident szmicio Hi all, On Saturday I collapsed, and hit head on concret stairs. I was unconscious almost two days, and now I am not myself anymore. I see things, that not exist. Hearing voices all the time. Devil comes to me by night. everything is weird. Lukas #130073 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:46 pm Subject: Re: accident jonoabb Hi Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi all, > On Saturday I collapsed, and hit head on concret stairs. I was unconscious almost two days, and now I am not myself anymore. I see things, that not exist. Hearing voices all the time. Devil comes to me by night. everything is weird. > > Lukas > J: Join the club (Nina and me, and Rob E's car)! Seriously, sorry to hear this news, but glad to hear you're on the road to recovery. Jon #130074 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:19 pm Subject: Re: accident t.sastri Hi Lukas, (Jon)- I join Jon to sympathize with your suffering. The hallucination is moha; it is a kamma-vipaka and it will pass away. Be well soon, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi all, > On Saturday I collapsed, and hit head on concret stairs. I was unconscious almost two days, and now I am not myself anymore. I see things, that not exist. Hearing voices all the time. Devil comes to me by night. everything is weird. > > Lukas > #130076 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:34 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Dear Connie (Sarah, Rob E.) - > Connie: Question 2: Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta? > > Expositor: > ... ... "In the Vinaya-Pi.taka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions; in the Suttanta-Pi.taka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions is meant, because concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny; in the Abhidhamma-Pi.taka the riddance of latent bias is meant because understanding is opposed to it. ... And in each of them, the fourfold profundity, viz., of the doctrine, of the meaning, of the exposition, and of intuition, should be understood." ...... What is your answer to Question 2, may I ask? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear friend, > #130077 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:01 pm Subject: Re: accident sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, Also very sorry to hear about your collapse and akusala vipaka. 2 days is quite a long time to be unconscious and there are always side-effects from this. IBe patient and get plenty of rest. Nothing lasts. As we've been saying a lot recently, we never know what will come next. We're all so very fortunate to have heard and considered so much about the Teachings and to appreciate that all such dhammas that come are anatta. Incredible how many accidents amongst us there've been recently! Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi all, > On Saturday I collapsed, and hit head on concret stairs. I was unconscious almost two days, and now I am not myself anymore. I see things, that not exist. Hearing voices all the time. Devil comes to me by night. everything is weird. #130078 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:47 pm Subject: Re: accident tadaomiyamot... Dear Lukas I'm sorry to hear about your accident. It must be a terrifying experience to be unconscious for almost two days. As Sarah said, please take a plenty of rest with sati and pannaa, which have a lot of calming effect. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi all, > On Saturday I collapsed, and hit head on concret stairs. I was unconscious almost two days, and now I am not myself anymore. I see things, that not exist. Hearing voices all the time. Devil comes to me by night. everything is weird. > > Lukas > #130079 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:04 pm Subject: Re: accident tadaomiyamot... Hi Sarah and Lucas As we've been getting older, we ought to pay attention to the notion of "risk-management", which I think is a type of yoniso-manasikaara. The word, "risk-management" had not been in my vocabulary until two years ago when the Big Earth Quake and Tsunami hit the region where I lived. We do not know when we have to leave this world, but it is imperative to make the best use of the time left for us. In that sense, (even though we cannot negotiate with our own vipaakas,) we should take care of ourselves with a great dose of yoniso-manasikaara coupled with sati/pannaa so that we would not unnecessarily put ourselves in risky situations Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Lukas, > > Also very sorry to hear about your collapse and akusala vipaka. > > 2 days is quite a long time to be unconscious and there are always side-effects from this. IBe patient and get plenty of rest. Nothing lasts. > > As we've been saying a lot recently, we never know what will come next. We're all so very fortunate to have heard and considered so much about the Teachings and to appreciate that all such dhammas that come are anatta. > > Incredible how many accidents amongst us there've been recently! > > Metta > > Sarah > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > On Saturday I collapsed, and hit head on concret stairs. I was unconscious almost two days, and now I am not myself anymore. I see things, that not exist. Hearing voices all the time. Devil comes to me by night. everything is weird. > #130080 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident tadaomiyamot... Dear Rob E. Thank you. With Mettaa tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tadao. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Dear Rob: > > > > I do not treat my current situation a difficulty. I've been rather enjoying > > the simpler way of life. > > > > The point I wanted to make with my previous posting was that vipaakas are vipaakas. > > We cannot change them in the way we like. If it is the case, then, it's better not upset > > ourselves with these. To be better yet is to be aware of the moments of vipaaka and the moments of akusala (and kusala) since the awareness would tell us that everything > > is a mere story. > > > > Best wishes, > > tadao > > Very good Tadao - thanks for your wise thoughts. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - > #130081 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accident sukinderpal Hi Lukas, Sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you did a thorough test of the brain and get back to normal soon. Actually when I read about your hallucinations, I thought, "well, without getting my head hit, I'm hallucinating all the time," and I also thought about A. Sujin's "delirious thinking" which again is something that happens all day. So really, there is very little difference. But the good thing is that we both understand intellectually at least, that at any given moment, there is only one experience of one object through the five senses or the mind. Sukin On 4/18/2013 5:25 PM, Lukas wrote: > > Hi all, > On Saturday I collapsed, and hit head on concret stairs. I was > unconscious almost two days, and now I am not myself anymore. I see > things, that not exist. Hearing voices all the time. Devil comes to me > by night. everything is weird. > > Lukas > > #130082 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am Subject: Re: accident jagkrit2012 Dear Lukas So sorry to hear about your accidence. Hopefully, you get well very soon. It is frightened that there is some hallucination due to you head wreck. Please consult the doctor for this condition. May be you need some medicine to control the situation. Spend more time listen to dhamma to keep your hallucination at bay. Best wishes Jagkrit #130083 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:36 am Subject: Re: accident truth_aerator Dear Lukas, Take omega-3, fish oils, highest quality coconut oil as much as you can. They are good for the brain. Please remember that voices in your head are NOT real. Satan doesn't exist. Don't listen to those voices. I hope you get better. With best wishes, Alex #130084 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:17 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn Tep: What is your answer to Question 2, may I ask? connie: The full Expositor quote remains my answer, Summarizer! But picking only one point: Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, instructs, according to states, those persons who imagine a self in the ultimate sense in mere collocations of things, saying, 'This is I; that is mine,' and is called instruction given in accordance with states. that, my dear, would be yours truly, c #130085 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:03 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Dear Connie, - > Tep: What is your answer to Question 2, may I ask? > connie: The full Expositor quote remains my answer, Summarizer! But picking only one point: Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, instructs, according to states, those persons who imagine a self in the ultimate sense in mere collocations of things, saying, 'This is I; that is mine,' and is called instruction given in accordance with states. > that, my dear, would be yours truly, > c .................. Thank you for kindly reply to my asking! But I am still lost since I cannot make sense of your above reply with regard to Alex's Question2 (i.e., why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta?) Sincerely, Tep === #130086 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:14 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn dear Tep, generally speaking, two baskets are taught "conventionally" while the 3rd is taught "in accordance with states" or "ultimately". What part of the question remains untouched? It seems more than covered to me! here's a rhetorical question: What is "good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing"? peace, connie #130087 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:42 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Dear Connie, all, >generally speaking, two baskets are taught "conventionally" while the >3rd is taught "in accordance with states" or "ultimately". What part >of the question remains untouched? It seems more than covered to me! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is puggalapannatti book in Abhidhamma Pitaka conventional or ultimate? Where in the Abhidhamma PITAKA itself does it clearly distinguish that "Buddha taught two truths, conventional is this and ultimate is that" ? :) As far as I know, nowhere in Tipitaka. The two truths is later addition, and different Buddhist schools had different take on two truths... With best wishes, Alex #130088 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:11 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn Dear Alex, is there a problem with speaking according to convention? is there a problem with speaking "in terms of states"? there are four truths. let's read puggalapannatti together and see. connie #130089 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:28 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Dear Connie, all >C:is there a problem with speaking according to convention? >is there a problem with speaking "in terms of states"? >there are four truths. >let's read puggalapannatti together and see. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no problem as long as we don't mix the two different perspectives together in order to create an idea not taught in the suttas. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #130090 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:51 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Dear Connie (& Alex), - Alex's Question2: "Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta?" Connie's Answer (quoting the Expositior) : "Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, instructs, according to states, those persons who imagine a self in the ultimate sense in mere collocations of things, saying, 'This is I; that is mine,' and is called instruction given in accordance with states.". T: But that "indirect" reply had confused me, so you gave another one: >C: "Generally speaking, two baskets are taught 'conventionally' while the 3rd is taught "in accordance with states" or 'ultimately'. What part of the question remains untouched? It seems more than covered to me! " T: So you say that the conventional language is the majority (two-third) of the three baskets. However, it does not answer Alex's question the way I see it. Connie: Here's a rhetorical question: What is "good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing"? T: The Dhamma is, of course. Be happy, Tep === P.S. If most of the English teachers in my schools (when I was young) were like you, I would not be able to pass any exam. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear Tep, > #130091 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:09 am Subject: Re: What atta is denied? epsteinrob Hi Sarah - a little late replying... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E (& Ken H), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > I take the Buddha at his word. When he describes a situation I accept it as a description. When he speaks in clear imperative terms, I take it as an instruction. I think that is a sane way to understand what someone has said. > ... > > S: Regardless - whatever is spoken of refers to conditioned dhammas. Agree so far... :-) > So even when an imperative is given as in "don't be heedless!", we know that the Buddha was referring to the urgency and importance of the development of the path, not to an imagined Self that can do anything to realise nibbana. I agree with this, but the implications of this can be taken two different ways, and I think we look at them slightly differently. The first way assumes that any "reaction" to an imperative such as "don't be heedless" is an example of self-view and will give the illusion that there is someone to do something. That view will thus say that if you understand the imperative correctly, one should more or less ignore it, because the "dhammas will do all the work" and any thought of doing something is incorrect. That I think is pretty much the dsg view. To summarize that view [as I understand it:] when you hear a Dhamma command, you should "hurry up and not do anything" so you don't fall into wrong view. The second way of looking at it, which is how I look at it and is why I think meditation is a legit part of the path, is that when you hear a Dhamma command such as "don't be heedless, develop the path now or you'll be sorry later" [which is a pretty good paraphrase of what the Buddha said:] the correct way to take it is to let it have it's effect. For instance, if "don't be heedless" makes you start wanting to observe dhammas now and see their true nature, that doesn't mean necessarily that there is a "self doing it." It may be that this statement of the Buddha's may be exciting correct volition to develop satipatthana on the part of the cittas arising at that moment, after hearing such a command. If that is the case then I would want to "let those cittas do" whatever they are doing and not quash them with a "counter command" that is going against what the Buddha said, such as "Better not try to act on that because you will be developing self-view." I think that this is exactly what the Buddha meant to do, to get those kusala cittas rolling along when he gave such a command, so why not let it do its work? There's no self doing it, but there is a Buddha rolling the wheel of the Dhamma and letting those cittas be affected. So in my view we should get out of the way and let the cittas go for it without intereference from mis-applied Dhamma concepts. > So it all comes down to the understanding when we hear such words. > ... And understanding correctly. Sometimes Dhamma concepts can get in the way just as much as other concepts. I think it's worth asking why the Buddha said things like that. My answer is that he knew they would have certain affects and he wanted that to happen. > >....The source of your understanding that there is no instruction in the Buddha's teaching does not come from the scriptures. It comes from the modern dsg interpretation of the scriptures and it is not backed up by the commentaries. If I am wrong, prove it. > ... > S: Whatever is read has to be read in the light of the Teachings about the khandhas, about the elements, about especially, such dhammas as anatta. > ... I agree, but I don't always accept the idea that this takes away the value of all thoughts and actions that naturally occur. Sometimes we do things in response to Dhamma ideas and commands that are not a result of self-view, but are the result of natural cittas and rupas that arise in response. > > Meanwhile I am waiting for a quote [for over a decade now] that gives scriptural authority to the view that meditation is an expression of self-view and is not part of the path, and that the Noble eight-fold path has nothing to do with how one conducts themselves in everyday life. I am happy to see any quote from the ancient commentaries that will support these views - and I don't mean some oblong quote that has to be re-interpreted to suggest that. > ... > S: See a collection from a decade of posts under the following headings in Useful Posts: > > "Meditation in the texts - see also 'Satipatthana & formal sitting', 'Bhavana' & 'Samatha & Vipassana Bhavana', 'Jhana - two meanings', 'Jhana & Nibbana', 'Practice'" > > Lots and lots of detail about what "meditation in the texts" really is. None of the Teachings are about how "one" does anything in actuality, mere dhammas rolling on. Still and all, that does not mean that formal meditation is synonymous with self-view, or that it is an obstacle rather than an aid to bhavana. Many monks -- most of them in fact, if not all -- meditated and utilized the techniques outlined by the Buddha in anapanasati and satipatthana suttas, and within that setting developed satipatthana and reached enlightenment. If that were not the case, the Buddha would not have happily presided over a large Buddhist community doing exactly that in Buddhist monasteries, as Buddhists, overseen by the Buddha himself. I will try to look at some of the UPs on this subject - thanks! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #130092 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:17 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn Answer Alex yourself, Tep. It is ok. connie #130093 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:20 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Tep and Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Connie (Sarah, Rob E.) - > > > Connie: Question 2: Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta? > > > > Expositor: > > > ... ... > "In the Vinaya-Pi.taka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions; in the Suttanta-Pi.taka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions is meant, because concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny; in the Abhidhamma-Pi.taka the riddance of latent bias is meant because understanding is opposed to it. ... And in each of them, the fourfold profundity, viz., of the doctrine, of the meaning, of the > exposition, and of intuition, should be understood." > ...... > > What is your answer to Question 2, may I ask? Since you included me - thanks for that - I am jumping in as this is one of my areas of great interest and concern. I am not well-read enough in the commentaries to understand all the specifics above, but it has always been my feeling - rightly or wrongly - that the Buddha would not keep talking about conventional objects and activities, such as murder, eating, alms-giving, meditation, monks, death, etc., just for the sake of convenience, but that he must have believed that the responses that are given to those who hear those terms actually has some effect on dhammas and thus has a corresponding relation to the development of the path. How exactly that works is still a little bit of a mystery. I have tried to propose at times that when "conventionally-minded people" hear a conventionally-phrased Dhamma pronouncement or command, that their response still has some effect on dhammas. In other words, let's say a person has the thought "I will not eat animal flesh that has been killed for my benefit" because the Buddha has said not to do this, that this positive thought of wanting to do "good" will arouse kusala cittas and thus lead to some small development in the kusala needed for the path. And that is just one example. Let's say a person refrains from saying something mean because they do not want to engage in "wrong speech." They have the cetana at that moment to "do good" and not do harm through speech. So at that moment I believe that kusala mental factors are aroused and that this also leads to a kusala accumulation for the path. There are some who would say that such conventional reactions and efforts have nothing to do with the path because there is no right understanding that "only dhammas exist" at that moment, but I think that the kusala that is aroused by such conventional efforts still has some kusala dhammas and some kusala understanding aroused. This could be incorrect, but in any case that's my sense of it. So for conventionally-minded Buddhists, the Buddha would talk about all these conventional subjects and the reactions this would excite would create genuine kusala. I wonder if you would agree with this? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #130094 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:31 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Tep: What is your answer to Question 2, may I ask? > connie: The full Expositor quote remains my answer, Summarizer! But picking only one point: Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, instructs, according to states, those persons who imagine a self in the ultimate sense in mere collocations of things, saying, 'This is I; that is mine,' and is called instruction given in accordance with states. > that, my dear, would be yours truly, As I am busy jumping in, may I bother you a little bit too? I think I understand the above, but does it really explain why the Buddha spoke in such terms? The only reason I can think of is that he was trying to communicate with people who thought in conventional terms, and thought he must be doing some good by speaking in that way. If those he spoke to understood him in conventional terms, and yet he thought it was worth talking to them that way, what would be the positive result that could be hoped for from such conventional talk? And if he was speaking to those who understood dhammas, why speak in conventional terms at such a time at all? Why not speak directly of the operation of the dhammas involved? Thanks, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #130095 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:04 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn > Tep: ... it does not answer Alex's question the way I see it. > connie: You might consider answering Alex yourself rather than challenging me to answer the way you see, Tep! What does it matter? If you don't like what Expositor says, I can only think (in my clumsy way) that it is not the fault of the water if the horse will only eat hay... something like that. Better I stick to quotes. c #130096 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:38 am Subject: Re: accident nichiconn The Discourse about Moonlight http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Udana/4-Meghiyavagg\ o-04.htm enjoy, lukas and all! alex, would you say this is a conventional or the other kind of teaching? the devil makes me ask, connie > J: Join the club (Nina and me, and Rob E's car)! > > Seriously, sorry to hear this news, but glad to hear you're on the road to recovery. > ps. ditto c #130097 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:56 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn Hi RobE, in one term, "why the Buddha spoke" at all: compassion. what does 'conventional' mean, anyway? connie #130098 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:12 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Hi Rob E., (Connie, Alex) - Thank you very much for joining in the discussion. >Rob E.: > I have tried to propose at times that when "conventionally-minded people" hear a conventionally-phrased Dhamma pronouncement or command, that their response still has some effect on dhammas. ... So for conventionally-minded Buddhists, the Buddha would talk about all these conventional subjects and the reactions this would excite would create genuine kusala. I wonder if you would agree with this? T: Yes, the first kusala dhamma to be induced by listening to the true Dhamma is conviction(faith, 'saddha') that is the supporting condition for practicing in accordance with the Dhamma (Pa.tipajjati = to enter upon a path) and importantly, the consequence of the right entering upon the path is experiential knowing and seeing the noble truths. Magandiya in the following story was a wanderer. [MN 75, Magandiya Sutta:] When you associate with men of integrity, you will hear the true Dhamma. When you hear the true Dhamma (saddhamma), you will practice the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma (dhammaanudhamma.m pa.tipajjissasi). When you practice the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, you will know & see for yourself: 'These things are diseases, cancers, arrows. And here is where diseases, cancers, & arrows cease without trace. With the cessation of my clinging comes the cessation of becoming. With the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. With the cessation of birth then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." ............. Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tep and Connie. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Dear Connie (Sarah, Rob E.) - > > > > > Connie: Question 2: Why did Buddha talk about conventional objects so much, even in satipatthana sutta? > > > #130099 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:24 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn Sorry, Tep! Didn’t mean to tell you to answer Alex yourself twice. bully for me, connie #130100 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:27 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Hi Rob E., (Connie, Alex) - >Rob E. : If those he spoke to understood him in conventional terms, and yet he thought it was worth talking to them that way, what would be the positive result that could be hoped for from such conventional talk? And if he was speaking to those who understood dhammas, why speak in conventional terms at such a time at all? Why not speak directly of the operation of the dhammas involved? T: Indeed, great teachers and skillful speakers know their audiences. Example: The Buddha taught the bark-cloth ascetic using the ultimate-reality language [Bahiya Sutta] : "When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." But he used the conventional language to talk to the monks: "Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was a wise man. He practiced according to Dhamma and did not trouble me by disputing about Dhamma. Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth has attained final Nibbana." In my opinion when the ultimate-reality language is used to replace the conventional language, the ordinary listener (who is not an ariyan) will be inevitably confused. Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Connie. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > Tep: What is your answer to Question 2, may I ask? #130101 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:49 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Dear Connie (Rob E., Alex, Han) - > > Tep: ... it does not answer Alex's question the way I see it. > Connie: You might consider answering Alex yourself rather than challenging me to answer the way you see, Tep! What does it matter? If you don't like what Expositor says, I can only think (in my clumsy way) that it is not the fault of the water if the horse will only eat hay... something like that. Better I stick to quotes. >C: Sorry, Tep! Didn't mean to tell you to answer Alex yourself twice. T: You can say it three times, I will not mind at all. I apologize for carelessly using unpleasant wordings. Sometimes my poking questions may offend others. So I will have to be mindful next time. Be kind, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Sorry, Tep! Didn’t mean to tell you to answer Alex yourself twice. > bully for me, > connie > #130102 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:09 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > in one term, "why the Buddha spoke" at all: compassion. > what does 'conventional' mean, anyway? Well, conventional means that the actual terms that are spoke of are what are thought of as concepts in Abdhidhamma-based understanding, rather than direct talk of dhammas. And if there is nothing but dhammas, and concepts have no import or weight of any kind, one would one speak of them? It only adds to the confusion that such things really exist, does it not, for those who might not see them as merely conceptual? If the Buddha speaks about 'right speech' in terms of what is said, rather than the namas and rupas involved, it appears to just be causing confusion, or else it must have some purpose. What does "conventional" mean, anyway? Good question - if there is no division between conventional and paramatha, then the whole idea of paramatha falls apart, doesn't it? So is there a distinction, or not? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #130103 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters sukinderpal Hi Rob E, Connie, Quote: "Since you included me - thanks for that - I am jumping in as this is one of my areas of great interest and concern. I am not well-read enough in the commentaries to understand all the specifics above, but it has always been my feeling - rightly or wrongly - that the Buddha would not keep talking about conventional objects and activities, such as murder, eating, alms-giving, meditation, monks, death, etc., just for the sake of convenience, but that he must have believed that the responses that are given to those who hear those terms actually has some effect on dhammas and thus has a corresponding relation to the development of the path." We may have had this conversation before. But I think you've got this backwards. Conventional speech is the norm, ultimate speech is for those of us who otherwise are likely to take conventional referents for real. This is what I think Connie was trying to convey with her quotes from the commentary. Sukin #130104 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:42 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Tep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Rob E., (Connie, Alex) - > > Thank you very much for joining in the discussion. > > >Rob E.: > > I have tried to propose at times that when "conventionally-minded people" hear a > conventionally-phrased Dhamma pronouncement or command, that their response still has some effect on dhammas. ... So for conventionally-minded Buddhists, the Buddha would talk about all these conventional subjects and the reactions this would excite would create genuine kusala. I wonder if you would agree with this? > > T: Yes, the first kusala dhamma to be induced by listening to the true Dhamma is conviction(faith, 'saddha') that is the supporting condition for practicing in accordance with the Dhamma (Pa.tipajjati = to enter upon a path) and importantly, the consequence of the right entering upon the path is experiential knowing and seeing the noble truths. Thanks for outlining this sequence. Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #130105 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:49 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Tep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > T: Indeed, great teachers and skillful speakers know their audiences. I would agree. > Example: > The Buddha taught the bark-cloth ascetic using the ultimate-reality language [Bahiya Sutta] : > "When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." > > But he used the conventional language to talk to the monks: > "Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was a wise man. He practiced according to Dhamma and did not trouble me by disputing about Dhamma. Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth has attained final Nibbana." > > In my opinion when the ultimate-reality language is used to replace the conventional language, the ordinary listener (who is not an ariyan) will be inevitably confused. I agree with your point and appreciate the distinction between the speech to those two audiences. BTW, love that sutta. "In the seen there will be nothing but the seen" or "merely the seen," etc., is most profound in its simplicity. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #130106 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder Narula wrote: > > Hi Rob E, Connie, > > Quote: > "Since you included me - thanks for that - I am jumping in as this is one of my areas of great interest and concern. I am not well-read enough in the commentaries to understand all the specifics above, but it has always been my feeling - rightly or wrongly - that the Buddha would not keep talking about conventional objects and activities, such as murder, eating, alms-giving, meditation, monks, death, etc., just for the sake of convenience, but that he must have believed that the responses that are given to those who hear those terms actually has some effect on dhammas and thus has a corresponding relation to the development of the path." > > We may have had this conversation before. But I think you've got this backwards. > > Conventional speech is the norm, It may be the norm, but that does not settle what it means, what effect it has, what purpose it has. Conventional speech is designed and evolved to discuss conceptual items in social and physical life as we know them through the mind - deluded cittas in other words. So why and how it is used to talk about that which is ultimate seems to be of some concern. It is natural to question this, but unfortunately there is hardly ever a specific answer as to how pannati are able to stand in for dhammas in the conventional speech of one who teaches about dhammas - the Buddha. The Buddha is only there to teach the way to end suffering through the path, so when he uses conventional speech he must have a purpose. To say it is the norm is fine, but it doesn't address the purpose in my view. > ultimate speech is for those of us who otherwise are likely to take conventional referents for real. This seems a little inverted to me. It is the norm to take conventional speech to stand for conventional referents, and it is the norm to take them as real. It is only someone who has seen that experiential moments are more real than the concepts woven from them who can see beyond conventional references. Ultimate speech is designed to describe those realities to those who can understand them and want to understand them better, but this does not account for the use of conventional speech by a world teacher. > This is what I think Connie was trying to convey with her quotes from the commentary. I think you are right about that. It is the presumption of those who take dhammas as their point of reference, that conventional speech of a Buddha is only talking about dhammas. So far I have not seen the evidence of this, except for the philosophical predisposition of those who assume it to be the case. That is a self-referential philosophy - it does not get into the details of why or how such speech operates. Generally, pannati are dismissed as useless and delusory, even though they are close cousins to nimittas and concepts that may stand in for things that are actual. I think the way in which they are used in Dhamma is worth more than an assumption that they are merely referencing dhammas and have no other purpose. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #130107 From: Thanh Nguyen Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:03 pm Subject: A couple of question: restrain senses. bostight257 Hello, I have a couple of questions about restrain senses. " There is the case where a monk, on seeing a form with the eye, does not grasp at any theme or details by which if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. He practices with restraint. He guards the faculty of the eye. He achieves restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye. "... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.033.than.html 1) What is "does not grasp at any theme or details"? Would you like to explain the Pali words of that phrase? What the commentary said about it? People say that does not grasp at theme means not grasping the general of object, and not grasp at details means not grasping detail of it. I find it has nothing to do with dukkha, anicca, anatta. Is grasping at theme means grasping of the idea unskillful like it's me, myself, mine in general, not clear, and at details when that idea become clear? 2) Restrain the intellect faculty? How do we do it? Does it lead to ignorance? When we cognize an new idea, at least there is doubt. 3) Restrain the faculty, and enjoy the moment, seem contradict with each other? #130108 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:26 pm Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. sarahprocter... Dear Tiny Tam, Good to hear your excellent qus! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Thanh Nguyen wrote: > I have a couple of questions about restrain senses. > " There is the case where a monk, on seeing a form with the eye, does not > grasp at any theme or details by which if he were to dwell without > restraint over the faculty of the eye evil, unskillful qualities such as > greed or distress might assail him. He practices with restraint. He guards > the faculty of the eye. He achieves restraint with regard to the faculty of > the eye. "... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.033.than.html > 1) What is "does not grasp at any theme or details"? Would you like to > explain the Pali words of that phrase? What the commentary said about it? .... S: When there is awareness and understanding, there is 'restraint', guarding of the faculties with no attachment to signs and details (nimmita anubya~njana). Here is a quote from A.Sujin's book, "Survey" referring to the Atthasalini, the commentary to the first Abhidhamma text: "The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Part II, 400) explains about being unguarded as to the "controlling faculties", the indriyas. Here the indriyas of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are referred to. We read: "Grasps the general appearance i.e., grasps by way of lusting desire a sign such as is of the male, or female, pleasant, etc, and which is the basis of corruption." "When we cling to the general appearance of male or female, it shows that the object is not a paramattha dhamma. When we know that we see a man or woman, we don't just know the reality which appears through the eyes, but we have an image (nimitta), a concept on account of what appears through the eyes. The image of the general appearance of a man or woman is the foundation of defilements. Through the power of desire (chanda raga) we take that image for something attractive. When we like a concept such as a belt, it shows that the belt is an attractive image. One is attached to it, one is ruled by desire. If the belt is not beautiful, if it is not an attractive nimitta (image), one does not like it. On account of colours which appear through the eyes, there can be different nimittas, attractive or unattractive. We read further on in the Atthasalini: "Grasps the details (anuvyanjana), "i.e. takes the various modes of hands and feet, of smiling, laughing, speaking, looking straight ahead, looking askance, which have earned the name of "details", they manifest, reveal the defilements." [Lots more detail in "Useful Posts" in the files under "shapes and forms"] .... > People say that does not grasp at theme means not grasping the general of > object, and not grasp at details means not grasping detail of it. > I find it has nothing to do with dukkha, anicca, anatta. > Is grasping at theme means grasping of the idea unskillful like it's me, > myself, mine in general, not clear, and at details when that idea become > clear? .... S: When there is clinging to the signs (nimitta) and details (anubya~njana) of what is seen, the perversions (vipallasa) are at work - there is the taking what is dukkha for sukkha, what is anicca for nicca and, often, what is anatta for atta. It really seems at such times that there is a beautiful rainbow seen, a delicious meal eaten and so on. .... > 2) Restrain the intellect faculty? How do we do it? Does it lead to > ignorance? When we cognize an new idea, at least there is doubt. ... S: No 'we' to restrain anything. It's the function of awareness (and understanding) at such times. Sati has the function of guarding, restraining from akusala whenever it arises, like the guard at the door. Ignorance now, leads to more ignorance. Sati now leads to more sati, more guarding from akusala. At moments of kusala guarding, no doubt at all. Doubt only arises when there is ignorance. .... > 3) Restrain the faculty, and enjoy the moment, seem contradict with each > other? ... S: Yes. Restraint of 'the faculty' with sati arises with detachment. Enjoyment of the moment with attachment is the opposite. This doesn't mean trying not to enjoy the moment - that would just be more attachment with wrong view of self that can control what arises. The development of understanding and awareness has to be very natural, not forced at all, otherwise it's the wrong path completely! Only an anagami doesn't enjoy sense objects. It's a long, long path. Pls ask for any further clarifications. (There will be a delay in my replies as we're travelling.) Metta Sarah p.s Please sign off with your name as you'd like friends to address you! ====== #130109 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:07 pm Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. tadaomiyamot... Dear Tiny Tam and Sarah In March, I learnt from Kun Sujin that guarding of five senses is not only for monks but also for lay-followers. Hence, even though in the ultimate sense it is the issue of sati and pannaa, even lay-followers ought to be rather careful not pay too much attentions to desirable objects. (As an ex-monk, I used to think that the guarding of the five senses applies mostly to monks. But Kun Sujin has rectified such a misunderstanding of mine.) With Mettaa tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Tiny Tam, > > Good to hear your excellent qus! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Thanh Nguyen wrote: > > > I have a couple of questions about restrain senses. > > " There is the case where a monk, on seeing a form with the eye, does not > > grasp at any theme or details by which  if he were to dwell without > > restraint over the faculty of the eye  evil, unskillful qualities such as > > greed or distress might assail him. He practices with restraint. He guards > > the faculty of the eye. He achieves restraint with regard to the faculty of > > the eye. "... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.033.than.html > > 1) What is "does not grasp at any theme or details"? Would you like to > > explain the Pali words of that phrase? What the commentary said about it? > .... > S: When there is awareness and understanding, there is 'restraint', guarding of the faculties with no attachment to signs and details (nimmita anubya~njana). > > Here is a quote from A.Sujin's book, "Survey" referring to the Atthasalini, the commentary to the first Abhidhamma text: > > "The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Part II, 400) explains about being > unguarded as to the "controlling faculties", the indriyas. Here the > indriyas of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are referred > to. We read: "Grasps the general appearance i.e., grasps by way of > lusting desire a sign such as is of the male, or female, pleasant, > etc, and which is the basis of corruption." > > "When we cling to the general appearance of male or female, > it shows that the object is not a paramattha dhamma. When we know > that we see a man or woman, we don't just know the reality which > appears through the eyes, but we have an image (nimitta), a concept > on account of what appears through the eyes. The image of the general > appearance of a man or woman is the foundation of defilements. > Through the power of desire (chanda raga) we take that image for > something attractive. When we like a concept such as a belt, it shows > that the belt is an attractive image. One is attached to it, one is > ruled by desire. If the belt is not beautiful, if it is not an > attractive nimitta (image), one does not like it. On account of > colours which appear through the eyes, there can be different > nimittas, attractive or unattractive. We read further on in the > Atthasalini: > > "Grasps the details (anuvyanjana), "i.e. takes the various > modes of hands and feet, of smiling, laughing, speaking, looking > straight ahead, looking askance, which have earned the name of > "details", they manifest, reveal the defilements." > > [Lots more detail in "Useful Posts" in the files under "shapes and forms"] > .... > > People say that does not grasp at theme means not grasping the general of > > object, and not grasp at details means not grasping detail of it. > > I find it has nothing to do with dukkha, anicca, anatta. > > Is grasping at theme means grasping of the idea unskillful like it's me, > > myself, mine in general, not clear, and at details when that idea become > > clear? > .... > S: When there is clinging to the signs (nimitta) and details (anubya~njana) of what is seen, the perversions (vipallasa) are at work - there is the taking what is dukkha for sukkha, what is anicca for nicca and, often, what is anatta for atta. It really seems at such times that there is a beautiful rainbow seen, a delicious meal eaten and so on. > .... > > 2) Restrain the intellect faculty? How do we do it? Does it lead to > > ignorance? When we cognize an new idea, at least there is doubt. > ... > S: No 'we' to restrain anything. It's the function of awareness (and understanding) at such times. Sati has the function of guarding, restraining from akusala whenever it arises, like the guard at the door. Ignorance now, leads to more ignorance. Sati now leads to more sati, more guarding from akusala. At moments of kusala guarding, no doubt at all. Doubt only arises when there is ignorance. > .... > > 3) Restrain the faculty, and enjoy the moment, seem contradict with each > > other? > ... > S: Yes. Restraint of 'the faculty' with sati arises with detachment. Enjoyment of the moment with attachment is the opposite. > > This doesn't mean trying not to enjoy the moment - that would just be more attachment with wrong view of self that can control what arises. The development of understanding and awareness has to be very natural, not forced at all, otherwise it's the wrong path completely! Only an anagami doesn't enjoy sense objects. It's a long, long path. > > Pls ask for any further clarifications. > > (There will be a delay in my replies as we're travelling.) > > Metta > > Sarah > p.s Please sign off with your name as you'd like friends to address you! > ====== > #130110 From: "Thanh" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:41 pm Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. bostight257 Dear Sarah, Tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: When there is awareness and understanding, there is 'restraint', guarding of the faculties with no attachment to signs and details (nimmita anubya~njana). > We read: "Grasps the general appearance i.e., grasps by way of > lusting desire a sign such as is of the male, or female, pleasant, > etc, and which is the basis of corruption." > > "When we cling to the general appearance of male or female, > it shows that the object is not a paramattha dhamma. When we know > that we see a man or woman, we don't just know the reality which > appears through the eyes, but we have an image (nimitta), a concept > on account of what appears through the eyes. The image of the general > appearance of a man or woman is the foundation of defilements. > Through the power of desire (chanda raga) we take that image for > something attractive. When we like a concept such as a belt, it shows > that the belt is an attractive image. One is attached to it, one is > ruled by desire. If the belt is not beautiful, if it is not an > attractive nimitta (image), one does not like it. On account of > colours which appear through the eyes, there can be different > nimittas, attractive or unattractive. We read further on in the > Atthasalini: > > "Grasps the details (anuvyanjana), "i.e. takes the various > modes of hands and feet, of smiling, laughing, speaking, looking > straight ahead, looking askance, which have earned the name of > "details", they manifest, reveal the defilements." > 1)Is restrain means not attach to the concept (human, man, woman,...) or even to realize there is no such concept in reality? 2)How to avoid such denying state like there is no father, no teacher,....? > .... > S: When there is clinging to the signs (nimitta) and details >(anubya~njana) of what is seen, the perversions (vipallasa) are at >work - there is the taking what is dukkha for sukkha, what is anicca >for nicca and, often, what is anatta for atta. It really seems at >such times that there is a beautiful rainbow seen, a delicious meal >eaten and so on. I think you mean sukkha for dukkha, nicca for anicca, atta for anatta? > .... > S: No 'we' to restrain anything. It's the function of awareness >(and understanding) at such times. Sati has the function of >guarding, restraining from akusala whenever it arises, like the >guard at the door. Ignorance now, leads to more ignorance. Sati now >leads to more sati, more guarding from akusala. At moments of kusala >guarding, no doubt at all. Doubt only arises when there is ignorance. > .... 3)I'm lay man, so when reading a new book, watching news, movies, learning new knowledge,.... how to guarding intellect faculty? How to guarding to ideas? Even it's the Theravada Nikayas, we're encourage to doubt it, to check if it's true? > > 3) Restrain the faculty, and enjoy the moment, seem contradict with each > > other? > ... > S: Yes. Restraint of 'the faculty' with sati arises with detachment. Enjoyment of the moment with attachment is the opposite. > > This doesn't mean trying not to enjoy the moment - that would just >be more attachment with wrong view of self that can control what >arises. The development of understanding and awareness has to be >very natural, not forced at all, otherwise it's the wrong path >completely! Only an anagami doesn't enjoy sense objects. It's a >long, long path. > 4)I heard somebody said that enjoy the moment is to realize there is no self and you're one with the universe.... That's completely irrelevant to Buddhism, is that it? 5) So,how to keep enjoy objects without increasing attachment to it? Or we just accept that? >In March, I learnt from Kun Sujin that guarding of five senses is >not only for monks >but also for lay-followers. >Hence, even though in the ultimate sense it is the issue of sati and >pannaa, >even lay-followers ought to be rather careful not pay too much attentions to desirable objects. > >(As an ex-monk, I used to think that the guarding of the five senses >applies mostly to >monks. But Kun Sujin has rectified such a misunderstanding of mine.) In my view, concentration's very important. And without guarding the 6 senses, it is impossible to develop it. ====== Regards, Bach Lang #130111 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Hi Rob E. (Sukin, others) - >Rob E : >It is the norm to take conventional speech to stand for conventional referents, and it is the norm to take them as real. It is only someone who has seen that experiential moments are more real than the concepts woven from them who can see beyond conventional references. Ultimate speech is designed to describe those realities to those who can understand them and want to understand them better, but this does not account for the use of conventional speech by a world teacher. >Generally, pannati are dismissed as useless and delusory, even though they are close cousins to nimittas and concepts that may stand in for things that are actual. I think the way in which they are used in Dhamma is worth more than an assumption that they are merely referencing dhammas and have no other purpose. T: Thank you for this good summary! Definitely, conventional speech is used by a world teacher who teaches the masses. Before a Dhamma student is matured in the Dhamma understanding to the point that he/she truly knows the essence (sabhava) of a conventional reality, it is premature to discard it. One can leave the Raft behind only when she/he has reached "the other shore". Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Sukin. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder Narula wrote: > > > > Hi Rob E, Connie, > > ... > > We may have had this conversation before. But I think you've got this backwards. > > > > Conventional speech is the norm, > #130112 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:33 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >RE:How exactly that works is still a little bit of a mystery. I have >tried to propose at times that when "conventionally-minded people" hear >a conventionally-phrased Dhamma pronouncement or command, that their >response still has some effect on dhammas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMHO, we need to keep in mind the *purpose* for which the Buddha taught what he taught. Don't lose the forest among the trees. When Buddha taught about ayatana-s, etc, it was for specific context. When Buddha talked about "do this, do that" it also had a specific context. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #130113 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:37 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Dear Connie, all, >connie:The full Expositor quote remains my answer, Summarizer! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, the Expositor and other commentaries are not Abhidhamma Pitaka and it came later. Different Buddhist philosophers had different take on philosophical issues. With best wishes, Alex #130114 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:45 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head t.sastri Hi Rob E., - >Rob E. : Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. T: That is the most important point of this discussion! How does one prepare/train himself in order to be "ready" for that moment? Be calm & cool, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tep. > > > >Rob E.: > > > I have tried to propose at times that when "conventionally-minded people" hear a > > conventionally-phrased Dhamma pronouncement or command, that their response still has some effect on dhammas. ... So for conventionally-minded Buddhists, the Buddha would talk about all these conventional subjects and the reactions this would excite would create genuine kusala. I wonder if you would agree with this? > > > > T: Yes, the first kusala dhamma to be induced by listening to the true Dhamma is conviction(faith, 'saddha') that is the supporting condition for practicing in accordance with the Dhamma (Pa.tipajjati = to enter upon a path) and importantly, the consequence of the right entering upon the path is experiential knowing and seeing the noble truths. > #130115 From: Tam Bach Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. tambach Dear Sarah, S: Dear Tiny Tam, Tam B: I know it is confusing, Bach Lang's email has the same last and middle name than Tiny Tam's.... Bach Lang is from Saigon. Dear Bach Lang, Tiny Tam is another member from Hanoi, she sometimes posts here, signed off as Jr Tam. Glad to see you join the discussions! Metta, Tam B Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2) Recent Activity: * New Members 2 * New Photos 4 * New Files 1 Visit Your Group MARKETPLACE ________________________________ ________________________________ Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback . #130116 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. sarahprocter... Dear Back Lang & Tiny Tam, Sorry for the mix up. When Bach Lang sent her follow-up, I realised the mistake. They both raise excellent Dhamma points! Bach Lang, hope to meet you in Saigon - and now you'll see why we ask for a 'sign-off' name:-)) I'm impressed by your keen ad careful study. > Tam B: I know it is confusing, Bach Lang's email has the same last and middle name than Tiny Tam's.... > Bach Lang is from Saigon. .... Tam B, thanks for clarifying. Metta Sarah ====== #130117 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:46 pm Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. sarahprocter... Dear Bach Lang, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Thanh" wrote: > > S: When there is awareness and understanding, there is 'restraint', guarding of the faculties with no attachment to signs and details (nimmita anubya~njana). > > We read: "Grasps the general appearance i.e., grasps by way of > > lusting desire a sign such as is of the male, or female, pleasant, > > etc, and which is the basis of corruption." > > > > "When we cling to the general appearance of male or female, > > it shows that the object is not a paramattha dhamma.<...> >BL: 1)Is restrain means not attach to the concept (human, man, woman,...) or even to realize there is no such concept in reality? .... S: There is restraint, guarding of the sense doors whenever the citta is wholesome. At such times, there is no attachment to any thing - there is detachment. It is through the understanding of realities that very gradually there is less clinging to ideas of humans and things as actually existing. There is more understanding that what is actually experienced through the 5 sense doors are only visible objects, sounds and so on. This leads to less clinging to the stories about people and things imagined on account of such experiences. It doesn't mean that for the wise, there is no more thinking about concepts! The Buddha still knew the names of different people - but no illusion that in truth, anything arises other than elements or khandhas. ,,, >BL: 2)How to avoid such denying state like there is no father, no teacher,....? ... S: The purpose of the path is not to 'do' anything or 'deny anything'. The purpose is to understand the reality experienced now. When you think you look at your father or teacher, what is actually seen? ... >BL: 3)I'm lay man, so when reading a new book, watching news, movies, learning new knowledge,.... how to guarding intellect faculty? How to guarding to ideas? Even it's the Theravada Nikayas, we're encourage to doubt it, to check if it's true? ... S: Whenever there's an idea of doing something like "guarding intellect faculty", it indicates there's the idea of self that can do it. In truth, there's no 'me' or 'you' to guard. So it's not a matter of 'how to?' but of understanding what the reality is now. Sati (awareness) and panna (understanding) work there way. By considering more about what is real now, there is the beginning of guarding the faculties. The realities which don't experience anything, such as sound and visible object, and the realities which experience an object, such as hearing and seeing. Checking whether what we read is true of not is done by understanding what is experienced now, not by doubt, a form of ignorance. >BL: 4)I heard somebody said that enjoy the moment is to realize there is no self and you're one with the universe.... That's completely irrelevant to Buddhism, is that it? ... S: Meaningless fantasy! How can attachment lead to any realization and what does it mean to be "one with the universe"? Just more attachment. ... >BL: 5) So,how to keep enjoy objects without increasing attachment to it? Or we just accept that? ... S: The aim of the teachings is to understand whatever appears. Never mind whether it's attachment or kindness or seeing or hardness. Just conditioned dhammas, not anatta. If there's minding or concern about increasing attachment, it's just more attachment. .... S: Excellent questions and helpful for us all to consider. Please continue to ask more, but others may have to respond for the next few days until I'm settled in Australia. Bach Lang, please also introduce a little more about yourself if you have time and how you've come to have such a good interest in (Theravada) Dhamma. Very glad to read your contributions. Metta Sarah ====== #130118 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:09 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head epsteinrob Hi Tep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Rob E., - > > >Rob E. : Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. > > T: That is the most important point of this discussion! How does one prepare/train himself in order to be "ready" for that moment? > > Be calm & cool, > Tep :-) Thanks, Tep - yes, that is a good question. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #130119 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:11 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Connie, all, > > > >connie:The full Expositor quote remains my answer, Summarizer! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > But, the Expositor and other commentaries are not Abhidhamma Pitaka and it came later. > > Different Buddhist philosophers had different take on philosophical issues. That is an interesting point that we haven't mentioned much, that the commentaries are not part of the Tipitaka. While they have excellent value, they perhaps should not be regarded as fully authoritative as the Abhidhamma itself. I wonder if there are any competing commentaries that we do not ordinarily hear about...? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #130120 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:31 pm Subject: Ratthapala:The Faith Etadagga/Litta Jataka yawares1 Dear Members, This lovely Friday...I have 2 great stories to share with you all: Please click: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13099&p=196414#p196414 Miss you all, yawares #130121 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:34 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > >Rob E. : Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. > > > > T: That is the most important point of this discussion! How does one prepare/train himself in order to be "ready" for that moment? .... S: 'One' doesn't! That's the point! ... > :-) Thanks, Tep - yes, that is a good question. .... S: A better question, imho, is what can be directly understood now? Metta Sarah ===== #130122 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:38 pm Subject: Re: Ratthapala:The Faith Etadagga/Litta Jataka sarahprocter... Dear Yawares, Would it be possible for you to post the extracts from the stories here as you used to do, a page or two max at a time, rather than just giving a link? Many of us will read the extracts but never open the links, especially if we print out posts, receive them in digest form or read in the archives, for example. Thanks in advance. Metta Sarah ====== > This lovely Friday...I have 2 great stories to share with you all: > > Please click: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13099&p=196414#p196414 #130123 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:35 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head t.sastri Hi Sarah, Rob E., Alex, and anyone - The following conversation reveals an important issue that may not be resolvable. Rob E. : Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. T: That is the most important point of this discussion! How does one prepare/train himself in order to be "ready" for that moment? .... S: 'One' doesn't! That's the point! ... Rob E. :-) Thanks, Tep - yes, that is a good question. .... S: A better question, imho, is what can be directly understood now? T: I find myself back to square one again. Lookin' back on how it was In years gone by ... the good & bad times that I had Makes today seem rather sad Not much has changed! ................ Be well, Tep === #130124 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:43 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >I wonder if there are any competing commentaries that we do not >ordinarily hear about...? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty. Such as Vimuttimagga which came before Visuddhimagga. As for two truths: There is sarvastivadin, sutrantika, cittamatra, and two (or more?) madhymaka, and perhaps more takes on "two truths". http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-india/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-tibet/ Now, think about this: Why are there so many different takes on two truths? Why one Abhidhamma has 72 dhammas, another 75 and another 100? Think... Because the suttas don't explicitly talk about "ultimate realities", Buddha in the suttas doesn't even say "ultimate reality". Abhidhamma Pitaka does not yet have classification of 72 dhammas, classification came later. Centuries, if I am not mistaken. With best wishes, Alex #130125 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters sukinderpal Hi Rob E, > > Quote: > > "Since you included me - thanks for that - I am jumping in as this > is one of my areas of great interest and concern. I am not well-read > enough in the commentaries to understand all the specifics above, but > it has always been my feeling - rightly or wrongly - that the Buddha > would not keep talking about conventional objects and activities, such > as murder, eating, alms-giving, meditation, monks, death, etc., just > for the sake of convenience, but that he must have believed that the > responses that are given to those who hear those terms actually has > some effect on dhammas and thus has a corresponding relation to the > development of the path." > > > > We may have had this conversation before. But I think you've got > this backwards. > > > > Conventional speech is the norm, > > It may be the norm, but that does not settle what it means, what > effect it has, what purpose it has. Conventional speech is designed > and evolved to discuss conceptual items in social and physical life as > we know them through the mind - deluded cittas in other words. So why > and how it is used to talk about that which is ultimate seems to be of > some concern. > This is from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: "Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." The above is conventional speech isn't it? And what it points to are ultimate realities, is it not? Were the audience deluded or were they close to enlightenment? All of them got enlightened before the Sutta was over. > It is natural to question this, but unfortunately there is hardly ever > a specific answer as to how pannati are able to stand in for dhammas > in the conventional speech of one who teaches about dhammas - the Buddha. > You are unnecessarily complicating things. With or without the Dhamma we are always referring to our experiences and that which is experienced and convey this to other people. For example we say, "when I touched that pan, my hand got burnt and it was very painful". Touch, heat, body and pain are referred to. Without the Dhamma these are taken for "self", but after hearing the Dhamma we can come to understand that they are in fact impersonal elements. And do we need to change to ultimate speech when for example we want to remind each other that these are impermanent, unsatisfactory and non-self? Not if the understanding is great. It is the understanding and not the speech that is important. But understanding what? Some of us say that it is characteristic of nama and rupa, whereas you and some others think that conventional objects and actions are to be objects of the development of wisdom. We say that we don't understand, therefore need to hear more about paramattha dhammas. You say that you do not understand, therefore need to work with conventional reality. Does not ours rather than yours, conforms with the process of straightening of view? Now I do not say, that all conventional referents are the product of the deluded mind, and therefore can keep using them, only at the same time understand that they are not real. You on the other hand, are saying that "conceptual items in social and physical life as we know them through the mind - deluded cittas" and suggest at the same time, that they be objects of the development of understanding, why? > The Buddha is only there to teach the way to end suffering through the > path, so when he uses conventional speech he must have a purpose. To > say it is the norm is fine, but it doesn't address the purpose in my view. > The purpose of using conventional speech by the Buddha is the same as that of you, I or Jesus Christ, namely to convey what one thinks / understands. The Buddha communicated Right View, and it is this which leads to the end of Dukkha, whereas Jesus Christ communicated Wrong View which lead to more Dukkha / samsara. > > ultimate speech is for those of us who otherwise are likely to take > conventional referents for real. > > This seems a little inverted to me. It is the norm to take > conventional speech to stand for conventional referents, and it is the > norm to take them as real. > It is the norm to take them for real *before* hearing the Dhamma. But even then, not all thinking / expressions are motivated by wrong view. Ignorance mostly yes, and sometimes, attachment, sometimes aversion, sometimes conceit, and also kindness, compassion etc. so really, wrong view is in fact rare compared. But again, if you think that they are all the time taken for real, why suggest that they be worked with as part of Dhamma practice? > It is only someone who has seen that experiential moments are more > real than the concepts woven from them who can see beyond conventional > references. Ultimate speech is designed to describe those realities to > those who can understand them and want to understand them better, but > this does not account for the use of conventional speech by a world > teacher. > So you are saying that an Ariyan understands that paramattha dhammas are "more real" than the concepts? So tell me, in what sense is a "car" real, and by what is "more" distinguished from "less" real? The person who truly understands, any concept can be used, he will not be fooled. On the other hand, the person with no wisdom, no matter how much you analyze experience in terms of paramattha dhammas for him, he will not understand. > > This is what I think Connie was trying to convey with her quotes > from the commentary. > > I think you are right about that. It is the presumption of those who > take dhammas as their point of reference, that conventional speech of > a Buddha is only talking about dhammas. > It is the understanding that the Dhamma is about better understanding dhammas starting with distinguishing reality from concepts, which leads to the conclusion that even when conventional objects and situations are referred to, what needs to be understood are the dhammas. Your insisting that conventional objects be objects of study therefore reflects the fact that you have not really understood the distinction between reality and concepts. > So far I have not seen the evidence of this, except for the > philosophical predisposition of those who assume it to be the case. > That is a self-referential philosophy - it does not get into the > details of why or how such speech operates. > How speech communicates ideas is one discussion. Why the Buddha used conventional speech is another discussion. Let us stick with the latter only. > Generally, pannati are dismissed as useless and delusory, even though > they are close cousins to nimittas and concepts that may stand in for > things that are actual. I think the way in which they are used in > Dhamma is worth more than an assumption that they are merely > referencing dhammas and have no other purpose. > Of course pannatis are useful. Without concepts, the Buddha could not teach and we could not learn about dhammas. Indeed without concepts we can't function at all, not even move a finger. However that concepts are part of our lives, this does not somehow elevate it to a status of reality. What you should be considering instead, is whether any concept could be conceived of without paramattha dhammas rising and falling away and performing specific functions, such as thinking, attention, memory, concentration and also seeing / visible object, hearing / sound and so on. And does not it follow then that it is these that need to be understood? Metta, Sukin. #130126 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:48 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head tadaomiyamot... Hi Everyone: I'm not sure if I should jump into the debate. But I would like to point out that as we all know, there are two types of truth: one is absolute and the other is conventional. As long as we do not mix up these, nothing wrong with juggling these two types of truth. Even the Buddha and all the arahatta do so when they use their own languages. Also, it's possible to say that the conventional truth concerns with the level of cognition, while the absolute truth concerns with the level of sensation. At the level of cognition, we perceive people/things, but at the level of sensation, which is the main concern of the Buddhism, what takes place are all the phenomena of seeing, hearing etc. Even an arahatta does not live in the world of sensation all the time; memories and concepts emerge naturally from what he has perceived through the five sense doors. An import thing is, however, that he has a clear understanding that what he experiences directly at the level of sensation are totally different from what he conceives at the level of cognition. He knows that the concepts emerged are merely created but what he experiences directly are not. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Rob E., - > > >Rob E. : Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. > > T: That is the most important point of this discussion! How does one prepare/train himself in order to be "ready" for that moment? > > Be calm & cool, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep. > > > > > >Rob E.: > > > > I have tried to propose at times that when "conventionally-minded people" hear a > > > conventionally-phrased Dhamma pronouncement or command, that their response still has some effect on dhammas. ... So for conventionally-minded Buddhists, the Buddha would talk about all these conventional subjects and the reactions this would excite would create genuine kusala. I wonder if you would agree with this? > > > > > > T: Yes, the first kusala dhamma to be induced by listening to the true Dhamma is conviction(faith, 'saddha') that is the supporting condition for practicing in accordance with the Dhamma (Pa.tipajjati = to enter upon a path) and importantly, the consequence of the right entering upon the path is experiential knowing and seeing the noble truths. > > > #130127 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Hello Sukinder, >The above is conventional speech isn't it? The question has wrong implications. The Buddha, as recorded in the suttas, didn't teach two truths. Even Abhidhamma Pitaka did not. The two truths doctrine came later. Don't attempt to read the suttas with the ideas that were not meant by the speaker or the listeners at that time. With best wishes, Alex #130128 From: "sukinderpal narula" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >The above is conventional speech isn't it? > > The question has wrong implications. The Buddha, as recorded in the suttas, didn't teach two truths. Even Abhidhamma Pitaka did not. > > The two truths doctrine came later. Don't attempt to read the suttas with the ideas that were not meant by the speaker or the listeners at that time. Sorry, where did I refer to the idea of "two truths"? Sukin #130129 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Hello Sukinder, >Sukinder:Sorry, where did I refer to the idea of "two truths"? You implied it by saying: "The above is conventional speech isn't it? And what it points to are ultimate realities, is it not? " "Now I do not say, that all conventional referents are the product of the deluded mind, and therefore can keep using them, only at the same time understand that they are not real. " etc. With best wishes, Alex #130130 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >Sukinder:Sorry, where did I refer to the idea of "two truths"? > > You implied it by saying: > > "The above is conventional speech isn't it? And what it points to are > ultimate realities, is it not? " > > "Now I do not say, that all conventional referents are the product of > the deluded mind, and therefore can keep using them, only at the same > time understand that they are not real. " > A car is a car, not a hammer. This is conventional truth. But I also say that all convention is concept, therefore unreal. And the discussion in this thread is about whether concepts can be object of the development of wisdom. I say not and you say yes. But I've just had a thought. You've heard the story about man who mistakes the rope for a snake, I presume? Do you think there is some important Dhamma lesson in this? If so, what is it? Sukin #130131 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:47 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn dear Tep, > The Buddha taught the bark-cloth ascetic using the ultimate-reality language [Bahiya Sutta] : > "When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." > connie: please say more about this as an example of ultimate-reality language... thanks, c > > > > > > Tep: What is your answer to Question 2, may I ask? > #130132 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Dear Sukin, all >A car is a car, not a hammer. This is conventional truth. But I also >say that all convention is concept, therefore unreal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean "unreal"? How can you hurt your finger with an unreal hammer? How can car accident occur if car is "unreal"? Why do we use the knife to cut food and spoon to eat the soup? We can't eat soup with a knife, because different objects have different uses. >And the discussion in this thread is about whether concepts can be >object of the development of wisdom. I say not and you say yes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suttas say yes. Of course you have the right for your own idea. >But I've just had a thought. You've heard the story about man who >mistakes the rope for a snake, I presume? Do you think there is some >important Dhamma lesson in this? If so, what is it? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mistake salt for sugar, the taste will not be sweet. With best wishes, Alex #130133 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:28 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head t.sastri Hi Tadao, (Rob E., Alex, Connie and Sarah of course) - You mentioned 'jumping into debate'! Debating implies there are two opposing views and the two persons (one on each side) disagree. I do not follow why you use the word "sensation" with regard to Absolute Truth (paramattha). Why does the Abhidhamma concern only with sensation? Other than that I agree with everything you have said. So there is no debate here. Summary (based on Tadao's message:) 1. There are two kinds of truth: absolute & conventional. 2. The conventional truth concerns with the level of cognition, while the absolute truth concerns with the level of sensation. 3. At the level of cognition we perceive people/things. At the level of sensation what takes place are all the phenomena of seeing, hearing, etc. 4. The Arahant does not perceive only paramattha dhammas, he/she also perceives concepts (conventional realities), and a clear understanding that experiences at the level of sensation are totally different from those at the level of cognition. He/she knows that the concepts emerged are merely created. Be happy, The Summarizer ......... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Hi Everyone: > > I'm not sure if I should jump into the debate. > #130134 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:51 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn Hi Rob e, > > What does "conventional" mean, anyway? Good question - if there is no division between conventional and paramatha, then the whole idea of paramatha falls apart, doesn't it? So is there a distinction, or not? > connie: convention, the norm, way of the average man, the commoner sense... the ways and means of going along, long, long. what we pretty much take for granted - evidently without giving it much thought! so, what is un-conventional understanding? c #130135 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:04 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn Alex, we ourselves are later than the Commentators! I guess that means we have nothing to say. peace c #130136 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:19 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Dear Connie, all, >Alex, we ourselves are later than the Commentators! I guess that means >we have nothing to say. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do we know that commentators (and which ones?) didn't make any mistakes? Even during Buddha's time there were monks (Arittha, Sati, Devadatta) with mistaken views. The thing is that when the Buddha was alive, he could have said "this and that is incorrect", but without Him - how do we know that commentators are not making mistakes? IMHO, With best wishes, Alex #130137 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:24 am Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. nichiconn hi Sarah, > S: The aim of the teachings is to understand whatever appears. Never mind whether it's attachment or kindness or seeing or hardness. Just conditioned dhammas, not anatta. If there's minding or concern about increasing attachment, it's just more attachment. > .... connie: pretty sure you didn't mean NOT anatta! c #130138 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:26 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters t.sastri Dear Connie, - Let's keep our communication channel open! Thanks for the asking. > > T: The Buddha taught the bark-cloth ascetic using the ultimate-reality language [Bahiya Sutta] : > > "When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." > > > > connie: please say more about this as an example of ultimate-reality language... thanks, This is what I understand: the Buddha teaches Bahiya that with reference to the sensing phenomenon he should perceive 'anatta' in it. With no clinging, it is the end of dukkha. Tep === #130139 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:03 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters nichiconn dear Alex, > > how do we know that commentators are not making mistakes? > connie: let's share examples when we come across things we doubt or wonder about. you do read the theravada commentaries, don't you? c #130140 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:29 am Subject: Thank you very much hantun1 Dear Brother Tep and Sister Yawares, Partner Sarah and Jon, Khun Tadao, Khun Jagkrit, Khun Phil, I thank you all very much for your best wishes. By the power of your best wishes the operation is safely over, and I am now recovering at home. But I still cannot sit down to work on my computer for more than a few minutes at a time. -------------------- My own body parts which have become a potential murderer (vadhaka) have been removed. But I still cannot remove the nandi-raaga, my intimate companion/murderer (antaracaro vadhako). [I have been inspired by the passages from SN 35.238 Aasiivisopama sutta to write the above two sentences.] with metta and respect, Han #130141 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:40 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters truth_aerator Dear Connie, all, >connie: let's share examples when we come across things we doubt or >wonder about. you do read the theravada commentaries, don't you? >>>>>>>>> I do read a bit of Visuddhimagga. I prefer to re read "mindfulness of death" chapter and sometimes read about other kayagatasati related passages found there. With best wishes, Alex #130142 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:20 am Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. sarahprocter... Hi All, Thanks Guard of the Doorways! NOT ATTA! Ok, that just caught my eye - 5.00 a.m. and closing down as we head for the airport shortly. Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > S: The aim of the teachings is to understand whatever appears. Never mind whether it's attachment or kindness or seeing or hardness. Just conditioned dhammas, not anatta. If there's minding or concern about increasing attachment, it's just more attachment. > > .... > > connie: pretty sure you didn't mean NOT anatta! #130143 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:21 am Subject: Abhidhamma and Suttas: Some Questions & Answers t.sastri Hi everyone, - Thanks to all who lately participated in the series of discussion on the Abhidhamma and the Sutta methods, the conventional and the ultimate realities. I think there are mainly eight questions : Q. 1. Why is the Abhidhamma Pitaka so great? Q. 2. In brief what is the Abhidhamma? Q. 3. What is the dhamma theory? Q. 4. Why are the dhammas the only reality? Q. 5. Do the teachings of the Suttas exclude ultimate reality? Q. 6. What is the primary concern of the Abhidhamma? Q. 7. In what ways are the Abhidhamma different than the Suttas? Q. 8. How do the Abhidhamma and the Suttas methods relate? Probably, there more more questions in your mind. If that's the case, then help me expand the list! I found answers to the above questions from the e-book: "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: The Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Acariya Anuruddha" General editor, Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/abhiman.html .................. ANSWERS: 1. "The Abhidhamma treatises are attempting nothing less than to articulate a comprehensive vision of the totality of experienced reality, a vision marked by extensiveness of range, systematic completeness, and analytical precision. From the standpoint of Theravada orthodoxy the system that they expound is not a figment of speculative thought, not a mosaic put together out of metaphysical hypotheses, but a disclosure of the true nature of existence as apprehended by a mind that has penetrated the totality of things both in depth and in the finest detail. 2. "The Theravada tradition regards the Abhidhamma as the most perfect expression possible of the Buddha's unimpeded omniscient knowledge (sabbauta-ana). It is his statement of the way things appear to the mind of a Fully Enlightened One, ordered in accordance with the two poles of his teaching: suffering and the cessation of suffering. The Abhidhamma may be described as a philosophy because it proposes an ontology, a perspective on the nature of the real. This perspective has been designated the "dhamma theory" (dhammavada). 3. "Briefly, the dhamma theory maintains that ultimate reality consists of a multiplicity of elementary constituents called dhammas. The dhammas are not noumena hidden behind phenomena, not "things in themselves" as opposed to "mere appearances," but the fundamental components of actuality. The dhammas fall into two broad classes: the unconditioned dhamma, which is solely Nibbana, and the conditioned dhammas, which are the momentary mental and material phenomena that constitute the process of experience. 4. "The familiar world of substantial objects and enduring persons is, according to the dhamma theory, a conceptual construct fashioned by the mind out of the raw data provided by the dhammas. The entities of our everyday frame of reference possess merely a consensual reality derivative upon the foundational stratum of the dhammas. It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: determinate existence "from their own side" (sarupato) independent of the mind's conceptual processing of the data. 5. No. The conception of the nature of the real seems to be already implicit in the Sutta Pitaka, particularly in the Buddha's disquisitions on the aggregates, sense bases, elements, dependent arising, etc., but it remains there tacitly in the background as the underpinning to the more pragmatically formulated teachings of the Suttas. Even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself the dhamma theory is not yet expressed as an explicit philosophical tenet; this comes only later, in the Commentaries. 6. "The primary concern of the Abhidhamma is to understand the nature of experience, and thus the reality on which it focuses is conscious reality, the world as given in experience, comprising both knowledge and the known in the widest sense. For this reason the philosophical enterprise of the Abhidhamma shades off into a phenomenological psychology. To facilitate the understanding of experienced reality, the Abhidhamma embarks upon an elaborate analysis of the mind as it presents itself to introspective meditation. It classifies consciousness into a variety of types, specifies the factors and functions of each type, correlates them with their objects and physiological bases, and shows how the different types of consciousness link up with each other and with material phenomena to constitute the ongoing process of experience. 7. "In contrast to the Suttas, the Abhidhamma Pitaka is intended to divulge as starkly and directly as possible the totalistic system that underlies the Suttanta expositions and upon which the individual discourses draw. The Abhidhamma takes no account of the personal inclinations and cognitive capacities of the listeners; it makes no concessions to particular pragmatic requirements. It reveals the architectonics of actuality in an abstract, formalistic manner utterly devoid of literary embellishments and pedagogical expedients. Thus the Abhidhamma method is described as the nippariyaya-dhammadesana, the literal or unembellished discourse on the Dhamma. "This difference in technique between the two methods also influences their respective terminologies. In the Suttas the Buddha regularly makes use of conventional language (voharavacana) and accepts conventional truth (sammutisacca), truth expressed in terms of entities that do not possess ontological ultimacy but can still be legitimately referred to them. Thus in the Suttas the Buddha speaks of "I" and "you," of "man" and "woman," of living beings, persons, and even self as though they were concrete realities. The Abhidhamma method of exposition, however, rigorously restricts itself to terms that are valid from the standpoint of ultimate truth (paramatthasacca): dhammas, their characteristics, their functions, and their relations. Thus in the Abhidhamma all such conceptual entities provisionally accepted in the Suttas for purposes of meaningful communication are resolved into their ontological ultimates, into bare mental and material phenomena that are impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen, empty of any abiding self or substance. 8. "When a distinction is drawn between the two methods, this should be understood to be based on what is most characteristic of each Pitaka and should not be interpreted as an absolute dichotomy. To some degree the two methods overlap and interpenetrate. Thus in the Sutta Pitaka we find discourses that employ the strictly philosophical terminology of aggregates, sense bases, elements, etc., and thus come within the bounds of the Abhidhamma method. Again, within the Abhidhamma Pitaka we find sections, even a whole book (the Puggalapaatti), that depart from the rigorous manner of expression and employ conventional terminology, thus coming within the range of the Suttanta method. ............ Be well, Tep === #130144 From: Thanh Nguyen Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. bostight257 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your respond. The practice of seeing senses experience as the elements, process of mind,.v..v... is pretty hard. Remembering your time with loved ones, your life experience,....with that view, it's kind of a shock. Let me introduce myself. I'm Bach Lang, from Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. I'm come to Theravada as I find it the most realistic and most possible way of getting out of suffering: a clear and realistic way of practice. Nice to meet you all. Regards, Bach Lang. On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:46 PM, sarah wrote: > S: There is restraint, guarding of the sense doors whenever the citta is > wholesome. At such times, there is no attachment to any thing - there is > detachment. <...> #130145 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:29 am Subject: Re: Thank you very much t.sastri Dear Brother Han, - Lucky you! It is a great news for me today. So, rest well and don't worry about using your computer for a week. May the new body parts work harmoniously with the old body! Be well & happier, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Brother Tep and Sister Yawares, Partner Sarah and Jon, Khun Tadao, Khun Jagkrit, Khun Phil, > > I thank you all very much for your best wishes. > #130146 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:54 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Suttas: Some Questions & Answers nichiconn dear Tepster, (Alex, RobE, You,) If good people quarrel they should quickly be reconciled and form a bond that long endures. Like useless cracked or broken pots, only fools do not seek reconciliation. One who understands this, who considers this teaching, does what's hard to do and is a worthy brother. He who bears the abuse of others is fit to be a conciliator. -- Ja.III,38 connie: that's the Digital Pali Reader quote of the day today - just peeking at the commentary to puggala... which of course i cannot read! i'll be back! c > > 8. "When a distinction is drawn between the two methods, this should be understood to be based on what is most characteristic of each Pitaka and should not be interpreted as an absolute dichotomy. To some degree the two methods overlap and interpenetrate. Thus in the Sutta Pitaka we find discourses that employ the strictly philosophical terminology of aggregates, sense bases, elements, etc., and thus come within the bounds of the Abhidhamma method. Again, within the Abhidhamma Pitaka we find sections, even a whole book (the Puggalapaatti), that depart from the rigorous manner of expression and employ conventional terminology, thus coming within the range of the Suttanta method. > ............ > > Be well, > Tep > === > #130147 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:12 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > >Rob E. : Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. > > > > > > T: That is the most important point of this discussion! How does one prepare/train himself in order to be "ready" for that moment? > .... > S: 'One' doesn't! That's the point! I agree that "one" is a convention -- but action still takes place. Or are you saying that not only is there no actor, but there is also no action? Rupas arise - those are physical realities. I wonder how far they go? And when mental factors arise they perform their function -- those are actions as well. When a 'being is murdered' what is taking place in reality? > ... > > > :-) Thanks, Tep - yes, that is a good question. > .... > S: A better question, imho, is what can be directly understood now? It is always that case that what is happening now should be understood - but sometimes it is necessary to clarify what can arise and what can take place. Do certain volitions lead to certain actions, and can those go into the category of preparation or development? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #130148 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thank you very much hantun1 Dear Brother Tep, Thank you very much once again. with metta and respect, Han From: Tep Sastri indriyabala@... Dear Brother Han, - Lucky you! It is a great news for me today. So, rest well and don't worry about using your computer for a week. #130149 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:10 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head nichiconn dear friends, > When a 'being is murdered' what is taking place in reality? connie: to take the easy route, i quote our beloved, ADL: Death is due to four causes, namely: Expiry of life-span The cessation of kammic forces Combination of the above two Untimely death due to an interrupting kammic force, upacchedaka kamma. < end quote, ADL. c #130150 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:22 am Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Tep)- > > > J: This is an argument used by meditation teachers "just try this technique and you'll see that it works". I don't think the Buddha ever endorsed such an approach; indeed, he cautioned against it. > ----------------------------- > HCW: > Hmmm - don't try, but take merely on faith? Remember "ehipassiko," Jon? :-) > ---------------------------- J: Yes, let's talk about "ehipassiko". It was a term used by the Buddha in describing the attributes of the Dhamma. It means "inviting to inspect" or "worthy of inspection". The reasons are obvious to us here. My discussion with Tep, however, is about supposed practice methods offered by others, such as the Ven. Soma's `preliminary object of contemplation' and `wholetime mindfulness'. I am suggesting that these should be evaluated by first considering them against the teachings of the Buddha as we find and understand them. I don't see any contradiction with the description of the teaching as being `ehipassiko'. Jon #130151 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:55 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head tadaomiyamot... Hi Rob E. I'm not sure if I do understand the point of your question. But concerning "action", let me express my idea. Most of the systems we rely on (e.g., language) have both the components of "comprehension" and "production." However, when we model such systems, generally, we prefer comprehension models, which could be much much simpler to formulate, to "production models." For instance, most of the models proposed in Psychology are comprehension models. Production models are very hard to construct since they involve various variables which are hard to control. The Buddhism/Abhidhamma is also a compression model, dealing with what we directly/actually experience through the six doors. Then, how can we describe "action", which seems to involve self/self-control. Here again, the focus is on "comprehension." Regardless of what kind of action we take, we only perceive the action through the door ways. That is, even though it seems to be a self engaging an action, from the viewpoint of comprehension, such an action would be boiled down to the realities at the level of sensation. Hence, Kun Sukin, Kun Nina, Sarah, Jon etc. all say that whatever we do (i.e., production), pay attention to the realities which appear (i.e., comprehension) (with sati and pannaa). tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Sarah. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Hi Rob E, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > > > >Rob E. : Experiential knowing may be few and far between for a while, but it is worthwhile to be ready to acknowledge it when it comes. > > > > > > > > T: That is the most important point of this discussion! How does one prepare/train himself in order to be "ready" for that moment? > > .... > > S: 'One' doesn't! That's the point! > > I agree that "one" is a convention -- but action still takes place. Or are you saying that not only is there no actor, but there is also no action? Rupas arise - those are physical realities. I wonder how far they go? And when mental factors arise they perform their function -- those are actions as well. > > When a 'being is murdered' what is taking place in reality? > > > ... > > > > > :-) Thanks, Tep - yes, that is a good question. > > .... > > S: A better question, imho, is what can be directly understood now? > > It is always that case that what is happening now should be understood - but sometimes it is necessary to clarify what can arise and what can take place. Do certain volitions lead to certain actions, and can those go into the category of preparation or development? > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - > #130152 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:46 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Suttas: Some Questions & Answers t.sastri Dear Connie, - Your message is, again, a puzzle. >connie: that's the Digital Pali Reader quote of the day today - just peeking at the commentary to puggala... which of course i cannot read! >i'll be back! Please be back and tell me what you had in mind. Be clear, Tep(ster) === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear Tepster, (Alex, RobE, You,) > > If good people quarrel they should quickly be reconciled and form a bond that long endures. Like useless cracked or broken pots, only fools do not seek reconciliation. One who understands this, who considers this teaching, does what's hard to do and is a worthy brother. He who bears the abuse of others is fit to be a conciliator. > > -- Ja.III,38 > > connie: that's the Digital Pali Reader quote of the day today - just peeking at the commentary to puggala... which of course i cannot read! > > i'll be back! > c > > > > > 8. "When a distinction is drawn between the two methods, this should be understood to be based on what is most characteristic of each Pitaka and should not be interpreted as an absolute dichotomy. To some degree the two methods overlap and interpenetrate. Thus in the Sutta Pitaka we find discourses that employ the strictly philosophical terminology of aggregates, sense bases, elements, etc., and thus come within the bounds of the Abhidhamma method. Again, within the Abhidhamma Pitaka we find sections, even a whole book (the Puggalapaatti), that depart from the rigorous manner of expression and employ conventional terminology, thus coming within the range of the Suttanta method. > > ............ > > > > Be well, > > Tep > > === > > > #130153 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:32 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Suttas: Some Questions & Answers nichiconn Dear Tep, > > Your message is, again, a puzzle. > connie: nothing important; you're not missing anything. c #130154 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:57 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head kenhowardau Hi all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear friends, > > > When a 'being is murdered' what is taking place in reality? > > connie: to take the easy route, i quote our beloved, ADL: > > Death is due to four causes, namely: > Expiry of life-span > The cessation of kammic forces > Combination of the above two > Untimely death due to an interrupting kammic force, upacchedaka kamma. > > < end quote, ADL. > -------- KH: That's the easy route, all right, and it's the Abhidhamma route. The other, much harder, route is that of the conventional-language suttas. That's where we have to be very careful not to get caught out. To unskilled ears some suttas seem to be explaining conventional reality. So they seem to be answering Tep's question: "When a 'being is murdered' what is taking place in reality?" But don't be fooled, they are not answering that question at all; they are actually explaining ultimate reality. A cuti citta can be described as like the death of a being, and an akusala cetana-cetasika like the murder of a being. But not the other way around; the Dhamma does not explain conventional reality. Ken H #130155 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:07 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head tadaomiyamot... Hi Tep Since I'm (slightly) dyslexic, I often rely on images to grasp important concepts. (One tell-tell sign of dyslexia is left-right agnosia; I'm one of those who cannot tell which is left and which is right.) Given my way of thinking, I will briefly explain why I say that the Abhidhamma deals mostly with the level of sensation; this concerns with my view that the Abhidhamma is what I call a "bottle-neck model". We (i.e., those who do not understand the Dhamma) think that there is the so-called "outside world". We think that our cognition of the outside world accurately reflects such a world. However, these two are not directly linked; they are linked by the bottle-neck, a highly narrow sensory passages. Because of the very limited information processing capacity of our sensation, we cannot take in the outside world as it is or as a whole; the information load has to be "radically" reduced at the level of sensation. Such highly impoverished pieces of sensory information are then processed at the level of perception/cognition to reconstruct the so-called outside world. A good example is seeing, what appears on the retina is highly impoverished two-dimentional visual object; remarkably, however, our brain converts such an image into three dimensional (original) visual object. (Mathematics cannot solve such a problem.) In this sense, we (i.e., those who do not understand the Dhamma) think that there is the outside world, which consists of people/things. However, these are, to a large part, those which are merely reconstructed by our brain. The Buddhism says "don't pay attention to these two ends (i.e., the outside world and our cognition of the outside world) but pay attention to the sensory world. At this level, everything is mere phenomenon: no thing, no person, and none of the phenomena can be treated as a self, being permanent or worth clinging to. (In the above sense, I call the Buddhism, especially, Abhidhamma, as a bottle-neck model.) A question obviously arises to what extent our cognition reflects the outside world. The answer would be that we CANNOT tell since we have NO means to compare these two worlds with each other. Other than perceiving the outside world through the bottle-neck or very narrow sensory passages, we have no other means to perceive it; hence, we are not in the position of accurately comparing these two worlds. In the Theravada tradition, it is claimed that the outside world does not exist; and our cognition of it is mere mirage. But I myself would say that it's something we cannot prove. What we can prove is that what we actually "experience" is not a person, not a thing; what we can actually experience are simply highly impoverished pieces of sensory information. Other than these, there are nothings which can be directly experienced. Hence, from the practitioners' viewpoint, it is not really important to argue if the outside world exists or not or what we think we've perceived are mere mirage or not. Then why do we have to see the sensory world as it is; it is a means/method to eradicate our defilements. In other words, seeing the sensory world as it is not an aim but a means. By doing so, we can become disenchanted with the so-called outside world. In this sense, it's important to see seeing as seeing, a visual object as a visual object etc. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Tadao, (Rob E., Alex, Connie and Sarah of course) - > > You mentioned 'jumping into debate'! Debating implies there are two opposing views and the two persons (one on each side) disagree. I do not follow why you use the word "sensation" with regard to Absolute Truth (paramattha). Why does the Abhidhamma concern only with sensation? Other than that I agree with everything you have said. So there is no debate here. > > Summary (based on Tadao's message:) > 1. There are two kinds of truth: absolute & conventional. > 2. The conventional truth concerns with the level of cognition, while the absolute truth concerns with the level of sensation. > 3. At the level of cognition we perceive people/things. At the level of sensation what takes place are all the phenomena of seeing, hearing, etc. > 4. The Arahant does not perceive only paramattha dhammas, he/she also perceives concepts (conventional realities), and a clear understanding that experiences at the level of sensation are totally different from those at the level of cognition. He/she knows that the concepts emerged are merely created. > > Be happy, > The Summarizer > ......... > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > I'm not sure if I should jump into the debate. > > > #130156 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:25 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Jon (and Tep)- > > > > > J: This is an argument used by meditation teachers "just try this technique and you'll see that it works". I don't think the Buddha ever endorsed such an approach; indeed, he cautioned against it. > > ----------------------------- > > HCW: > > Hmmm - don't try, but take merely on faith? Remember "ehipassiko," Jon? :-) > > ---------------------------- > > J: Yes, let's talk about "ehipassiko". It was a term used by the Buddha in describing the attributes of the Dhamma. It means "inviting to inspect" or "worthy of inspection". The reasons are obvious to us here. > > My discussion with Tep, however, is about supposed practice methods offered by others, such as the Ven. Soma's `preliminary object of contemplation' and `wholetime mindfulness'. I am suggesting that these should be evaluated by first considering them against the teachings of the Buddha as we find and understand them. ----------------------------- HCW: I definitely agree with you on that. ----------------------------- I don't see any contradiction with the description of the teaching as being `ehipassiko'. ----------------------------- HCW: Okay. ---------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #130157 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters colette_aube A "crafty one", isn't he, Alex? It's not often I get to see an actual member of the Sangha EXPERIENCE a moment of "enlightenment", but in this case I enjoyed it, somewhat. In my "practice", I AM FOCUSED WITH AN UNBELIEVABLE CONCENTRATION on "the flow of prana", at the moment. Been this way for more than several weeks now. Anyway, I thought I'd allow you to DECEIVE yourselves through my action of imitating the proverbial "fly in the ointment" This way, once you realize that you're lost, I can say/sing "c'mon take a little walk with me baby and tell me who do ya love." But that is my playful side peaking out around the corners of my life and viewing this thing called REALITY. Isn't that cool how Sukinder played around with your assessment? Yes, by all means, I see no problems with using THE SYMMETRIC PROPERTY OF EQUALITY. Isn't that interesting how the word "convention" and "conventional" are blinding words that exude blinding concepts? So, then, isn't it true that to say "convention" or "conventional" is the same as saying THE NORM, the "status quo" but I want to equal Suinder's craftiness, so why can't the words "convention" and "conventional" mean CATHOLIC since we can put into EQUALITY the same behaviors of those who established the BUDDHIST DOCTRINE (which then created THERAVADA) TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO ESTABLISHED THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE (which then created CATHOLIC): the Buddhist monks set up shop in a cave and used, applied, DISCRIMINATION as to who can and who cannot decide what is to be THERAVADAN just as the Romans, in Constantinople, decided to decide who can and who cannot decide on what shall come out of the FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA and the NICENE CREED. One is Buddhist and the other is Christian but they both employed the same behavior to establish themselves. Come now, lets get a handle on that BREATHING and that HEART RATE. Speed will generate heat and I am not about to BOIL BLOOD at this time, working a TANTRA system that is a bit new to me BUT DAMN IS IT SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOTH! I'd rather you apply the IDA a little more so that we can maintain the Sushumna. Love it, though! Thanx for letting me have a little fun and mix it up a little. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > > >Sukinder:Sorry, where did I refer to the idea of "two truths"? > > > > You implied it by saying: > > > > "The above is conventional speech isn't it? And what it points to are > > ultimate realities, is it not? " > > > > "Now I do not say, that all conventional referents are the product of > > the deluded mind, and therefore can keep using them, only at the same > > time understand that they are not real. " > > > > A car is a car, not a hammer. This is conventional truth. But I also say > that all convention is concept, therefore unreal. And the discussion in > this thread is about whether concepts can be object of the development > of wisdom. I say not and you say yes. > But I've just had a thought. You've heard the story about man who > mistakes the rope for a snake, I presume? Do you think there is some > important Dhamma lesson in this? If so, what is it? > > Sukin > > > > #130158 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conventional still matters sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >A car is a car, not a hammer. This is conventional truth. But I also > >say that all convention is concept, therefore unreal. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > What do you mean "unreal"? > Something that is thought about and therefore not a reality. Something that has no characteristics. > How can you hurt your finger with an unreal hammer? > If you believe that finger is real, then you will believe that a hammer is also real. If you understand that there is in fact no finger but only particular primary elements experienced by some mental phenomena, then you will also understand that there is no hammer, but only primary and derived rupas. > How can car accident occur if car is "unreal"? > Accident is a concept from thinking about car, driving, crashing etc. When elements are understood as elements, then you can see that sometimes, one element affect another element, no car, no crashing, no accident. > Why do we use the knife to cut food and spoon to eat the soup? We > can't eat soup with a knife, because different objects have different > uses. > Ideas about this and that arises as a result of experiences through the five senses and the mind. What makes up spoon are experience of rupas different from that of a knife. A knife has one use and a spoon has another, but this is all thinking about concepts. Hardness is hardness, heat is heat, knife or spoon, it is the thinking conditioned by memory which makes this particular distinction. > >And the discussion in this thread is about whether concepts can be > >object of the development of wisdom. I say not and you say yes. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Suttas say yes. Of course you have the right for your own idea. > What is the basis for the belief? Please tell me how a "spoon" is understood for what it is? > >But I've just had a thought. You've heard the story about man who > >mistakes the rope for a snake, I presume? Do you think there is some > >important Dhamma lesson in this? If so, what is it? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > If you mistake salt for sugar, the taste will not be sweet. > I have a particular reason for asking the above question. So please give a direct answer. Sukin #130159 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:19 pm Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head t.sastri Hi Tadao, (Sarah, Rob E., Nina) - >Tadao: I will briefly explain why I say that the Abhidhamma deals mostly with the level of sensation ... this concerns with my view that the Abhidhamma is what I call a "bottle-neck model" : those who do not understand the Dhamma think there is the so-called "outside world" ... our cognition of the outside world accurately reflects such a world . However, these two are not directly linked; they are linked by the bottle-neck, a highly narrow sensory passages. >Tadao: Such highly impoverished pieces of sensory information are then processed at the level of perception/cognition to reconstruct the so-called outside world. ...[for example] what appears on the retina is highly impoverished two-dimentional visual object; remarkably, however, our brain converts such an image into three dimensional (original) visual object. T: I like this vivid example of the mapping of 2-D images into 3-D visual objects in the brain. But what about the citta --how does it "see" the original 3-D object through the "sense-door"? The Abhidhamma does not even mention the brain. As to the Sutta teaching, it does not care at all about such mapping or how the citta processes visual data; the concern is clear knowing and seeing of 'rupas' as anicca.m, dukkha.m, anatta that leads to abandoning craving and ignorance. ............ >Tadao: The Buddhism says "don't pay attention to these two ends (i.e., the outside world and our cognition of the outside world) but pay attention to the sensory world. At this level, everything is mere phenomenon: no thing, no person, and none of the phenomena can be treated as a self, being permanent or worth clinging to. T: Thank you for explaining well. Now I understand why you have said that "the Abhidhamma concerns only with sensation". ............ >Tadao: What we can prove is that what we actually "experience" is not a person, not a thing; what we can actually experience are simply highly impoverished pieces of sensory information. Other than these, there are nothings which can be directly experienced. Hence, from the practitioners' viewpoint, it is not really important to argue if the outside world exists or not or what we think we've perceived are mere mirage or not. Then why do we have to see the sensory world as it is; it is a means/method to eradicate our defilements. In other words, seeing the sensory world as it is not an aim but a means. By doing so, we can become disenchanted with the so-called outside world. T: Although --without any doubt-- yathabhuta.m pajanati is a means to disenchantment (Nibbida), but how does such truly seeing & knowing --as a path-- arise without an aim/purpose (chanda.m janeti) of samma-vayama? Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Hi Tep > ... > > We (i.e., those who do not understand the Dhamma) think that there is > the so-called "outside world". > > We think that our cognition of the outside world accurately reflects > such a world. > > However, these two are not directly linked; they are linked by the bottle-neck, a highly narrow sensory passages. > #130160 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:01 am Subject: Hit your finger with a hammer! truth_aerator Hello Sukin, all, >...If you understand that there is in fact no >?>finger but only >particular primary elements experienced by some >mental phenomena, >then you will also understand that there is no >hammer, but only >primary and derived rupas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If finger, hammer, and other objects don't exist: Hit your finger with a hammer! If food doesn't exist, and neither the body - does this mean that one can not starve to death? Why eat? When you walk from a room, why do you try to walk through the door rather than attempting to walk through the wall? What is the use of this purely mental philosophy where you believe one thing and act contrary to it? With best wishes, Alex #130161 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:34 am Subject: Re: Ratthapala:The Faith Etadagga/Litta Jataka....SARAH yawares1 Dear Sarah, Do you know? I found out that 26 DSG members click to read this RATTHAPALA story...@ DhammaWheel when viewers click to read the story the number will add up each time. And 31 members clicked to read the story/Nina's birthday. I'm pretty busy posting @SD/JTN/DhammaWheel/DharmaWheel that's why I just copy the links and posted here..think members here might enjoy reading my stories with beautiful pictures. Miss you/Nina, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Yawares, > > Would it be possible for you to post the extracts from the stories here as you used to do, a page or two max at a time, rather than just giving a link? Many of us will read the extracts but never open the links, especially if we print out posts, receive them in digest form or read in the archives, for example. > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > > > This lovely Friday...I have 2 great stories to share with you all: > > > > Please click: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13099&p=196414#p196414 > #130162 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:55 am Subject: Re: Hit your finger with a hammer! t.sastri Hi Alex (Sukin), - Allow me to comment on this very interesting dialog: >>Sukin: ...If you understand that there is in fact no finger but only particular primary elements experienced by some mental phenomena, then you will also understand that there is no hammer, but only primary and derived rupas. >Alex: If finger, hammer, and other objects don't exist: Hit your finger with a hammer! T: It is a reality for sure that it hurts when you hit a real finger with a real hammer. Nobody can deny that! But what does this "reality" imply? I don't think the implication is that the dhamma theory (dhammavada)of the Abhidhamma is wrong. It does not imply either that the hurt feeling is a delusion, since feeling is a paramattha dhamma -- so it is a reality, isn't it? I think what is at fault is the viewpoint of anyone who interprets the dhamma theory to mean that there is neither a hammer nor a finger, "but only particular primary elements experienced by some mental phenomena". It is like the viewpoint of an atomic physicist who sees nothing but the atoms. ................... The Abhidhamma may be described as a philosophy because it proposes an ontology, a perspective on the nature of the real. This perspective has been designated the dhamma theory (dhammavada). The familiar world of substantial objects and enduring persons is, according to the dhamma theory, a conceptual construct fashioned by the mind out of the raw data provided by the dhammas. In the Suttas the Buddha speaks of "I" and "you," of "man" and "woman," of living beings, persons, and even self as though they were concrete realities. The Abhidhamma method of exposition, however, rigorously restricts itself to terms that are valid from the standpoint of ultimate truth (paramatthasacca): dhammas, their characteristics, their functions, and their relations. Thus in the Abhidhamma all such conceptual entities provisionally accepted in the Suttas for purposes of meaningful communication are resolved into their ontological ultimates, into bare mental and material phenomena that are impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen, empty of any abiding self or substance. Reference: "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: The Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Acariya Anuruddha" General editor, Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/abhiman.html .............. Be wise, Tep === #130163 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:34 am Subject: Re: Hit your finger with a hammer! truth_aerator Dear Tep, Sukin, all, I believe that anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta characteristic is more powerful for dispassion than speculating about existence/non-existence. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #130164 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:55 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi Rob e, > > > > What does "conventional" mean, anyway? Good question - if there is no division between conventional and paramatha, then the whole idea of paramatha falls apart, doesn't it? So is there a distinction, or not? > > > > connie: convention, the norm, way of the average man, the commoner sense... the ways and means of going along, long, long. what we pretty much take for granted - evidently without giving it much thought! > so, what is un-conventional understanding? dhamma, dhamma, dhamma, dhamma. Best, the dhammas formerly known as Robert ===================== #130165 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:44 am Subject: Re: Hit your finger with a hammer! t.sastri Dear Alex, Tadao, - > >Tadao: What we can prove is that what we actually "experience" is not a person, not a thing; what we can actually experience are simply highly impoverished pieces of sensory information. Other than these, there are nothings which can be directly experienced. >Alex: I believe that anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta characteristic is more powerful for dispassion than speculating about existence/non-existence. > What-one-cannot-experience may or may not exist, is also a speculation by a non-ariyan. Be peaceful, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Tep, Sukin, all, > > > > IMHO. > > With best wishes, > > Alex > #130166 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:42 pm Subject: Re: Thank you very much jagkrit2012 Dear Khun Han I'm glad that everything went well and you will be recovered very soon. I'm interested to you quote > But I still cannot remove the nandi-raaga, my intimate companion/murderer (antaracaro vadhako). "Nandi-raaga" seems to have vast meaning. If you have time, would you like to elaborate more on this. Thank you and best wishes Jagkrit #130167 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thank you very much hantun1 Dear Khun Jagkrit, Thank you very much. I am not yet 100 per cent fit. When I am fit I will write about Nandi-raaga to the best of my ability. with metta and respect, Han From: jagkrit2012 Dear Khun Han I'm glad that everything went well and you will be recovered very soon. I'm interested to you quote > But I still cannot remove the nandi-raaga, my intimate companion/murderer (antaracaro vadhako). "Nandi-raaga" seems to have vast meaning. If you have time, would you like to elaborate more on this. Thank you and best wishes Jagkrit #130168 From: Chan Kin Sung Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. chankinsung Hi, Thanh Nguyen and all, I find that Bhikkhu Analayo gives an excellent description of what nimitta means. Here is the link and hope it helps. http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/analayo/Nimitta.pdf On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Thanh Nguyen wrote: > ** > > > Dear Sarah, > Thanks for your respond. The practice of seeing senses experience as the > elements, process of mind,.v..v... is pretty hard. Remembering your time > with loved ones, your life experience,....with that view, it's kind of a > shock. > Let me introduce myself. > I'm Bach Lang, from Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. > I'm come to Theravada as I find it the most realistic and most possible way > of getting out of suffering: a clear and realistic way of practice. > Nice to meet you all. > > Regards, > Bach Lang. > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:46 PM, sarah >wrote: > > > > S: There is restraint, guarding of the sense doors whenever the citta is > > wholesome. At such times, there is no attachment to any thing - there is > > detachment. > <...> > > > #130169 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hit your finger with a hammer! sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >...If you understand that there is in fact no >?>finger but only > >particular primary elements experienced by some >mental phenomena, > >then you will also understand that there is no >hammer, but only > >primary and derived rupas. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > If finger, hammer, and other objects don't exist: > Hit your finger with a hammer! If I believe that finger and hammer don't exist, why ask me to hit my finger with a hammer? But of course you are thinking that I'm contradicting myself. There is no finger or hammer, but there is thinking about finger and hammer. In thinking about finger and hammer, there is also the idea that if the one strikes the other, there will be pain and damage. So why would I then "think" to follow your suggestion? The finger and hammer are not real, but the pain and the memory of the pain are. The hardness of the hammer is real and the heat generated when striking the finger is also real. > > If food doesn't exist, and neither the body - does this mean that one > can not starve to death? Why eat? Food or nutrition exists of course, but not as fruit, vegetable or meat, but as a particular kind of rupa. The body too exists, but not as something with a head, two arms and two legs, but as fleeting rupas conditioned some by kamma, some by heat and some by nutrition. But of course your question really is, if fruits, vegetables and meat don't exist, why think to eat them, right? The answer is as in the above with regard to finger and hammer. There is thinking, memory, other namas and several rupas. That there is reaching out to eat something is due to bodily intimation conditioned by citta, no 'me', 'chicken', 'plate' nor 'fork'. > > When you walk from a room, why do you try to walk through the door > rather than attempting to walk through the wall? Space is real, and the space surrounding the rupas which make up what we call "air" is different from that which we call "wall". The former allows for rupas which make up body to pass through, whereas the one constituting wall will only result in the earth element striking earth element, one of which is accompanied with the rupa called body-sense. And this latter when contacted by unpleasant earth or fire element, is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Of course I don't need to think all this, but only in terms of wall and open door is enough to avoid one and go through the other. > > What is the use of this purely mental philosophy where you believe one > thing and act contrary to it? The idea that finger, hammer and chicken do not exist, to you this means that nothing at all exists. To me however it means that only nama and rupas exist, therefore no contradiction here. It is the meditator who is contradicting himself. He agrees that the Buddha taught about the Five Khandhas and that these have the characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Yet his attitude towards practice is based clearly on the perception and view of "self" which he keeps defending endlessly. Sukin. #130170 From: "willthlong" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:29 pm Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. willthlong Hi Bach Lang, The 'restrain' here doesn't necessarily mean you force yourself to be indifferent to what you come in contact with, so it's not like you can't enjoy sense objects. The way I understand it is that you "don't add stuffs" (mostly ideas) to what there is. So for example, when you watch a movie and there's a part that you enjoy, a pleasant feeling arises. Once you are aware of it, you can just let it be, and then you don't try to create ideas/fantasize things around what you experience (e.g. seeing yourself in the role, being all over a character/things you see and suddenly desire). That's when you don't grasp at what comes to your sense doors, at least at the 'macro' level. I imagine that at a subtler level, in the movie case, you'd see whatever is in there as they are, with no feelings attached. A is just a set of pictures streaming before your eyes - so when you see it, it's just seeing. Why do you have to work yourself up and add all sorts of things around it, which leads to unnecessary emotions and attachments? But well, it's not that easy to let go of our habitual ways. -Tung #130171 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:37 pm Subject: Re: Thank you very much jonoabb Dear Han Very glad to see you back, albeit at less than full strength, so soon. You have obviously made a strong initial recovery! Looking forward to seeing more of you one the list as you recover further. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Khun Jagkrit, > > Thank you very much. > I am not yet 100 per cent fit. > When I am fit I will write about Nandi-raaga to the best of my ability. > > with metta and respect, > Han > > From: jagkrit2012 > > Dear Khun Han > I'm glad that everything went well and you will be recovered very soon. > I'm interested to you quote > But I still cannot remove the nandi-raaga, my intimate companion/murderer (antaracaro vadhako). > "Nandi-raaga" seems to have vast meaning. If you have time, would you like to elaborate more on this. > Thank you and best wishes > Jagkrit > > > > > > #130172 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:08 pm Subject: Re: Discussion with Annie & Pt jonoabb Hi pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Jon, > > Thanks for your replies and corrections on samatha objects and practice. I still can't quite make sense of one thing, though I'm not sure I can quite form the question - why can't there be an "ordinary daily life moment" of awareness with samatha kind of panna which is unrelated to actual samatha objects? > > What I mean is a moment of samatha bhavana (so not dana and not sila and not vipassana), which is unconnected to official samatha development objects that Jon mentioned with reference to Vsm. What I mean is perhaps like a moment when something is seen and perceived in daily life, like (a concept of) a cake for example, but there's no attachment to such concept, in other words there's a sort of kusala "calm awareness" of the fact that it's a perception/concept, so with samatha sort of panna (which I guess makes it samatha bhavana), but the object is not a kasina, nor a dhamma (as we're not talking about vipassana here), nor a ... well, it's clear its a perception/concept, but it's not clung to. This is probably not making much sense. > =============== J: In ordinary daily life, there may be kusala with any concept as object and, if there is a level of understanding of that kusala as kusala, then that will indeed be samatha. The significance of the 'official' objects of samatha is that their contemplation can support the development of samatha to a particularly high degree. If panna arises with, say, a kasina as object it does so not because the object is a kasina, nor because there is concentration with a kasina as object, but because of the way the (notion of) kasina is being contemplated (and obviously the same could not be said of, say, a cake :-)) > =============== > pt: Anyway, my point being that this sort of ordinary moments would be a precursor to actual samatha bhavana with an official object for samatha later on. I mean, I assume nobody can jump straight into fullon samatha bhavana with actual official objects until at least some sort of "ordinary" moments of samatha bhavana happened (like my cake thing) and it became clear what is a moment with sati as opposed to a moment without sati (still speaking samatha-related only like outside a sasana)? > =============== J: To my understanding, the development of samatha as described in Part II of the Vism is the development of samatha at its higher levels, meaning that what is spoken of there is applicable to the person for whom samatha has already become well developed in daily life. As I have suggested above, that development would be the understanding of kusala, of whatever kind and whenever arising, as kusala. Hoping this helps answer your question/s. Jon #130173 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:06 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head tadaomiyamot... Hi Tep I will withdraw my bottle neck model since the Abhidhamma deals not only the five sense doors but also the mind door. I will come up with a better visual model. hahaha. With Mettaa tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Tadao, (Sarah, Rob E., Nina) - > > >Tadao: I will briefly explain why I say that the Abhidhamma deals mostly with the level of sensation ... this concerns with my view that the Abhidhamma is what I call a "bottle-neck model" : > those who do not understand the Dhamma think there is the so-called "outside world" ... our cognition of the outside world accurately reflects such a world . However, these two are not directly linked; they are linked by the bottle-neck, a highly narrow sensory passages. > > >Tadao: Such highly impoverished pieces of sensory information are then processed at the > level of perception/cognition to reconstruct the so-called outside world. ...[for example] what appears on the retina is highly impoverished two-dimentional visual object; remarkably, however, our brain converts such an image into three dimensional (original) visual object. > > T: I like this vivid example of the mapping of 2-D images into 3-D visual objects in the brain. But what about the citta --how does it "see" the original 3-D object through the "sense-door"? The Abhidhamma does not even mention the brain. As to the Sutta teaching, it does not care at all about such mapping or how the citta processes visual data; the concern is clear knowing and seeing of 'rupas' as anicca.m, dukkha.m, anatta that leads to abandoning craving and ignorance. > ............ > > >Tadao: The Buddhism says "don't pay attention to these two ends (i.e., the outside world and our cognition of the outside world) but pay attention to the sensory world. At this level, everything is mere phenomenon: no thing, no person, and none of the phenomena can be treated as a self, being permanent or worth clinging to. > > T: Thank you for explaining well. Now I understand why you have said that "the Abhidhamma concerns only with sensation". > ............ > > >Tadao: What we can prove is that what we actually "experience" is not a person, not a thing; what we can actually experience are simply highly impoverished pieces of sensory information. Other than these, there are nothings which can be directly experienced. > > Hence, from the practitioners' viewpoint, it is not really important to argue if the outside world exists or not or what we think we've perceived are mere mirage or not. Then why do we have to see the sensory world as it is; it is a means/method to eradicate our defilements. In other words, seeing the sensory world as it is not an aim but a means. By doing so, we can become disenchanted with the so-called outside world. > > T: Although --without any doubt-- yathabhuta.m pajanati is a means to disenchantment (Nibbida), but how does such truly seeing & knowing --as a path-- arise without an aim/purpose (chanda.m janeti) of samma-vayama? > > Truly, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep > > > ... > > > > We (i.e., those who do not understand the Dhamma) think that there is > > the so-called "outside world". > > > > We think that our cognition of the outside world accurately reflects > > such a world. > > > > However, these two are not directly linked; they are linked by the bottle-neck, a highly narrow sensory passages. > > > > #130174 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:39 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head t.sastri Hi Tadao, - >Tadao: I will come up with a better visual model. hahaha. I like the relaxed, detached disposition that you have shown! :-) Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Hi Tep > > I will withdraw my bottle neck model since > the Abhidhamma deals not only the five sense doors but also > the mind door. > > > #130175 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:58 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head tadaomiyamot... Hi Tep Thank you for your compliment. Basically, I'm a simpleton. Hence, the Abhidhamma is a bit hard to chew. Mettaaya. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Tadao, - > > >Tadao: I will come up with a better visual model. hahaha. > > I like the relaxed, detached disposition that you have shown! :-) > > Truly, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep > > > > I will withdraw my bottle neck model since > > the Abhidhamma deals not only the five sense doors but also > > the mind door. > > > > > > > #130176 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:06 am Subject: Re: Thank you very much tadaomiyamot... Dear Han It's nice to hear that you've been getting stronger. I look forward to reading your thought on Nandi-raaga, which is to a certain degree under my control. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Dear Han > > Very glad to see you back, albeit at less than full strength, so soon. You have obviously made a strong initial recovery! > > Looking forward to seeing more of you one the list as you recover further. > > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > > Dear Khun Jagkrit, > >  > > Thank you very much. > > I am not yet 100 per cent fit. > > When I am fit I will write about Nandi-raaga to the best of my ability. > >  > > with metta and respect, > > Han > > > > From: jagkrit2012 > > > > Dear Khun Han > > I'm glad that everything went well and you will be recovered very soon. > > I'm interested to you quote > But I still cannot remove the nandi-raaga, my intimate companion/murderer (antaracaro vadhako). > > "Nandi-raaga" seems to have vast meaning. If you have time, would you like to elaborate more on this. > > Thank you and best wishes > > Jagkrit > > > > > > > > > > > > > #130177 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. tadaomiyamot... Dear Chan Kin Sung Thank you for copying the text, which is quite thorough in describing what nimitta is. With Mettaa, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Chan Kin Sung wrote: > > Hi, Thanh Nguyen and all, > > I find that Bhikkhu Analayo gives an excellent description of what nimitta > means. Here is the link and hope it helps. > > http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/analayo/Nimitta.pdf > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Thanh Nguyen wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your respond. The practice of seeing senses experience as the > > elements, process of mind,.v..v... is pretty hard. Remembering your time > > with loved ones, your life experience,....with that view, it's kind of a > > shock. > > Let me introduce myself. > > I'm Bach Lang, from Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. > > I'm come to Theravada as I find it the most realistic and most possible way > > of getting out of suffering: a clear and realistic way of practice. > > Nice to meet you all. > > > > Regards, > > Bach Lang. > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:46 PM, sarah > >wrote: > > > > > > > S: There is restraint, guarding of the sense doors whenever the citta is > > > wholesome. At such times, there is no attachment to any thing - there is > > > detachment. > > <...> > > > > > > > > > > #130178 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:53 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head t.sastri Hello Tadao, (Rob E., others) - "According to tradition, the essence of the Abhidhamma was formulated by the Buddha during the fourth week after his Enlightenment. Seven years later he is said to have spent three consecutive months preaching it in its entirety in one of the deva realms, before an audience of thousands of devas (including his late mother, the former Queen Maya), each day briefly commuting back to the human realm to convey to Ven. Sariputta the essence of what he had just taught. Arahant Sariputta mastered the Abhidhamma and codified it into roughly its present form. Although parts of the Abhidhamma were recited at the earlier Buddhist Councils, it wasn't until the Third Council (ca. 250 BCE) that it became fixed into its present form as the third and final Pitaka of the canon." [Abhidhamma Pitaka: The Basket of Abhidhamma. Editor, Access To Insight] T: The Buddha did not teach the Abhidhamma essence to any other monks beside Arahant Sariputta, whose wisdom is second only to the Buddha himself. So I'm not surprised to know that you too find it "hard to chew". :-) Be happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Thank you for your compliment. Basically, I'm a simpleton. > Hence, the Abhidhamma is a bit hard to chew. > > Mettaaya. > > tadao > #130179 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:29 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head tadaomiyamot... Hi Tep Have you studied Panini's Grammar? It's sophistication is in the realm of Super Computers. (Being exposed to the Grammar was my initial interest in Linguistics.) The same with the Abhidhamma, whose sophistication can only be appreciated by those with highly developed left brains. My interest in what Kun Suin has been preaching originated in my study of (Rinzai) Zen. These two schools perfectly match. In Zen, there are hardly any words or explanations of nama and rupa, but it still pinpoints where one can find the essence of Buddhism, i.e., "here and now." The point is that (many) Japanese prefer a simple/simpler teaching to the highly elaborated description of the teaching; and I am one of them and I cannot help. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hello Tadao, (Rob E., others) - > > "According to tradition, the essence of the Abhidhamma was formulated by the Buddha during the fourth week after his Enlightenment. Seven years later he is said to have spent three consecutive months preaching it in its entirety in one of the deva realms, before an audience of thousands of devas (including his late mother, the former Queen Maya), each day briefly commuting back to the human realm to convey to Ven. Sariputta the essence of what he had just taught. Arahant Sariputta mastered the Abhidhamma and codified it into roughly its present form. Although parts of the Abhidhamma were recited at the earlier Buddhist Councils, it wasn't until the Third Council (ca. 250 BCE) that it became fixed into its present form as the third and final Pitaka of the canon." [Abhidhamma Pitaka: The Basket of Abhidhamma. Editor, Access To Insight] > > T: The Buddha did not teach the Abhidhamma essence to any other monks beside Arahant Sariputta, whose wisdom is second only to the Buddha himself. So I'm not surprised to know that you too find it "hard to chew". :-) > > Be happy, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep > > > > Thank you for your compliment. Basically, I'm a simpleton. > > Hence, the Abhidhamma is a bit hard to chew. > > > > Mettaaya. > > > > tadao > > > #130180 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:02 am Subject: Re: Hit your finger with a hammer! tadaomiyamot... Dear Sukin, Alex and other friends The question of whether a hammer or hand exists or not is the so-called "ill-posed problem" in the sense that we have no "means to prove" if it does or does not. (Only we can say is that we cannot "experience" a hammer or hand.) If we were a Supernatural Being, who could look at our processing mechanism totally beyond and above it and could compare our cognition of such an object and the seemingly existing object, we would be confidently able to say such an object exist or dose not exist. But we perceive the seemingly existing object only through our sensory doors, so we are not in any position of providing a solid answer to the question. Given that it's an ill-posed question, such a debate does not bring any merit. If you are interested in, could you please read the following passage? It is taken from Hawking, Stephen and Leonard Mlodinow. (2010). The Grand Design, p. 39. London: Bantam Press. To me it's a pure dhamma. A few years ago the city council of Monza, Italy, barred pet owners from keeping goldfish in curved goldfish bowls. The measurefs sponsor explained the measure in part by saying that it is cruel to keep a fish in a bowl with curved sides because, gazing out, the fish would have a distorted view of reality. But how do we know we have the true, undistorted picture of reality? Might not we ourselves also be inside some big goldfish bowl and have our vision distorted by an enormous lens? The goldfishfs picture of reality is different from ours, but can we be sure it is less real? Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Sukin, all, > > >...If you understand that there is in fact no >?>finger but only >particular primary elements experienced by some >mental phenomena, >then you will also understand that there is no >hammer, but only >primary and derived rupas. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > If finger, hammer, and other objects don't exist: > Hit your finger with a hammer! > > If food doesn't exist, and neither the body - does this mean that one can not starve to death? Why eat? > > When you walk from a room, why do you try to walk through the door rather than attempting to walk through the wall? > > What is the use of this purely mental philosophy where you believe one thing and act contrary to it? > > With best wishes, > Alex > #130181 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thank you very much hantun1 Dear Jon, Thank you very much for your kind concern. I will be alright, but the only thing is that the recovery from any illness or surgery at my age is slow because of diminished immune system in my body. with metta and respect, Han ________________________________ From: jonoabb Dear Han Very glad to see you back, albeit at less than full strength, so soon. You have obviously made a strong initial recovery! Looking forward to seeing more of you one the list as you recover further. Jon > > #130182 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thank you very much hantun1 Dear Khun Tadao, Thank you very much once again. I will write more when I am fit. with metta and respect, Han ________________________________ From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Dear Han It's nice to hear that you've been getting stronger. I look forward to reading your thought on Nandi-raaga, which is to a certain degree under my control. Mettaaya, tadao > > > > > #130183 From: "azita" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:26 am Subject: Re: Program from Saigon to Da Lat gazita2002 hallo Dang, thank you, but I will not be going on to Da Lat. metta, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kanchana Chuathong wrote: > > Dear Azita, > This is the program from Saigon to Da Lat. > Dang. > > > > ________________________________ > From: azita > <....> > Hallo Nina and Jon, > > May you both have a speedy recovery. > dear Nina, take it easy and don't push too hard, allow the healing to do 'its thing'. > thinking of you. > > Live for understanding > azita > #130184 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:46 am Subject: Re: conventional still matters ...You Hit the Nail on Its Head t.sastri Hello Tadao, - >Tadao: Have you studied Panini's Grammar? It's sophistication is in the realm of Super Computers. T: I did not know that term! The Wickipedia shows that it is the classical Sanskrit. Maybe the Wickipedia is inaccurate. >Tadao: My interest in what Kun Sujin has been preaching originated in my study of (Rinzai) Zen. These two schools perfectly match. In Zen, there are hardly any words or explanations of nama and rupa, but it still pinpoints where one can find the essence of Buddhism, i.e., "here and now." T: The Britannica Encyclopedia explains that Rinzai "stresses the abrupt awakening of transcendental wisdom, or enlightenment". What this Dictionary describes does not sound like Khun Sujin's ideas. ["Among the methods it practices are shouts (katsu) or blows delivered by the master on the disciple, question-and-answer sessions (mondo), and meditation on paradoxical statements (koan), all intended to accelerate a breakthrough of the normal boundaries of consciousness and to awaken insight that transcends logical distinctions."] >Tadao: The point is that (many) Japanese prefer a simple/simpler teaching to the highly elaborated description of the teaching; and I am one of them and I cannot help. T: I see your point now. Simple teachings are found in the Itivuttaka too. For example, Iti 2.2: "Endowed with two things, a monk lives in ease in the present life --untroubled, undistressed, & unfeverish-- and at the break-up of the body, after death, a good destination can be expected. Which two? A guarding of the doors of the sense faculties, and knowing moderation in food." .......... Knowing moderation in food (and drinks) alone results in good health and freedom from several diseases. Be well, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > > > (Being exposed to the Grammar was my initial interest in Linguistics.) > > The same with the Abhidhamma, whose sophistication can only be appreciated by > those with highly developed left brains. > #130185 From: Tam Bach Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. tambach Dear Bach Lang, I appreciate your line of enquiry. BL: The practice of seeing senses experience as the elements, process of mind,.v..v... is pretty hard. Remembering your time with loved ones, your life experience,....with that view, it's kind of a shock. ----------------------- Tam B: I will share with you my understanding on the subject as I could have learnt from reading Buddhist texts, from listening to Achaan Sujin (importantly) and from other dhamma friends. As you might have read in several posts by DSG members, where it is stated that the Buddha's teaching is rather descriptive than prescriptive. Through his enlightenment, the Buddha has awakened to the realities that he taught to us. What we usually take for being something or someone are in realities only visible objects, sound....experienced by the corresponding consciousness arising at relevant sense-doors. There's thinking afterwards about what have seen, heard etc...as something or someone. They are concepts that have been learnt. This is the description of the truth that can condition the understanding of what appears now as just that: only elements. At first, it is only intellectual understanding, it arises thanks to wise consideration of what is heard. When the intellectual understanding is firm enough, it can condition the moment of direct understanding. It can be a very long process... This development is therefore "hard" in the sense that the truth is deep and it takes time for understanding to be cultivated. It is also surely a shock, because it challenges our attachment to all pleasant objects, such as our ideas of loved ones and life experiences, that same attachment that binds us in samsara. So it is a most beneficial shock, as it provides the chance to be awakened to the truth, which is the real way out of suffering. There might be the idea of someone who tries to practice that "seeing is just seeing" and therefore it seems impossible. And it is indeed impossible as long as there's the idea of "someone" who can try to experience something in a certain way. As we've learnt through the teaching, all realities arise by conditions, therefore only understanding can be said to actually "practice", not ignorance or attachment. The conditions for understanding to arise are hearing (reading) the right teaching and wise considering of what is heard, and a repetition of that same thing again and again, it doesn't happen overnight. If there is no clear, thorough understanding now, there's no condition for further understanding to arise in the future. We usually look for other ways (such as "doing" meditation or whatever), thinking that they will lead us to the point where direct understanding will arise by it-self. But conditions are what they are. Only the right causes lead to right effects. Even the practice of samatha bhavana (tranquility) is also entirely based on understanding, although this kind of understanding can be developed at time there's no Buddha's teaching. I am most grateful to have learnt from Achaan Sujin about the conditions for understanding, which turn out to be confirmed by the texts, as well as can be verified with our own considering. However, this has been widely dismissed today in the Buddhist environment most of us are exposed to. Hope this helps, Metta, Tam B #130186 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. jagkrit2012 Dear Tam B and friends I very much appreciate your excellent debrief of how to understand dhamma which is, as you mentioned, very difficult to apprehend due to dhamma's profoundity and its contradiction to all conventional senses. ================ > TB: If there is no clear, thorough understanding now, there's no condition for further understanding to arise in the future. We usually look for other ways (such as "doing" meditation or whatever), thinking that they will lead us to the point where direct understanding will arise by it-self. But conditions are what they are. Only the right causes lead to right effects. Even the practice of samatha bhavana (tranquility) is also entirely based on understanding, although this kind of understanding can be developed at time there's no Buddha's teaching. JJ: This is the very crucial point. Getting the right start. Like button up the shirt, if you button up the right button at the beginning, you never redo it again at the end. Same as understanding right view about attaa and anattaa at the very beginning, no worry about right result at the end of the day. ================== > TB: I am most grateful to have learnt from Achaan Sujin about the conditions for understanding, which turn out to be confirmed by the texts, as well as can be verified with our own considering. However, this has been widely dismissed today in the Buddhist environment most of us are exposed to. JJ: You see ! How lucky we are with paggatupa-nissaya-paccaya. Thank you and anumodhana Jagkrit #130187 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hit your finger with a hammer! epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > It is the meditator who is contradicting himself. He agrees that the > Buddha taught about the Five Khandhas and that these have the > characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Yet his attitude towards > practice is based clearly on the perception and view of "self" which he > keeps defending endlessly. This disparaging characterization of all meditators is presumptuous, and based only on the dogmatic idea that one cannot engage with meditation without indulging self-view. This has been assumed by many dsg members such as yourself, but has never been logically demonstrated. It is stated over and over that "formal meditation" is an expression of self-view and control, but that is not necessarily the case, any more than reading Abhidhamma must be an expression of self-view. I wish this recurrent presumption would not be stated as a general rule, as if there is no doubt about it, and all meditators are deluded indulgers in self-view. This is not the case, and is a wrong view about meditation and meditators. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #130188 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Thank you very much epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Brother Tep and Sister Yawares, Partner Sarah and Jon, Khun Tadao, Khun Jagkrit, Khun Phil, > > I thank you all very much for your best wishes. > > By the power of your best wishes the operation is safely over, and I am now recovering at home. I'm a little late but would like to add my best wishes for you as well, and am glad that you are home and in recovery. I missed some of the earlier messages so will have to go back to see what was happening. Be well, and hope you are back to full strength soon. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #130189 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thank you very much hantun1 Dear Rob E, Thank you very much for your kind concern. I will write more when I am fit. with metta and respect, Han ________________________________ From: Robert E I'm a little late but would like to add my best wishes for you as well, and am glad that you are home and in recovery. I missed some of the earlier messages so will have to go back to see what was happening. Be well, and hope you are back to full strength soon. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #130190 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hit your finger with a hammer! truth_aerator Hello Sukin, Robert E, all, >RE:This disparaging characterization of all meditators is presumptuous, >and based only on the dogmatic idea that one cannot engage with >meditation without indulging self-view....It is stated over and over >that "formal meditation" is an expression of self-view and control, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How come living in the daily life isn't also an expression of self-view? You think you are selfless in daily life? Wait till tax time comes or someone grabs your wallet in front of your eyes... At least meditation is supposed to be higher kusala activity and can even lead to Dhamma wisdom. Being perfect in order to reach perfection seems like "God's grace" or something like that. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #130191 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hit your finger with a hammer! sukinderpal Hello Tadao, Good to see you posting here. > The question of whether a hammer or hand exists or not is the > so-called "ill-posed problem" in the sense that we have no "means to > prove" if it does or does not. > (Only we can say is that we cannot "experience" a hammer or hand.) Does not the Abhidhamma tell us what does exist, namely, citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana? Does not the Dhamma make the distinction between paramatthadhamma and pannatti and is not hammer a pannatti? Even if we don't label or even recognize it as "something", being that it is not a nimitta of a reality, it must be pannatti, no? > If we were a Supernatural Being, who could look at our processing > mechanism > totally beyond and above it and could compare our cognition of such an > object > and the seemingly existing object, we would be confidently able to say > such an object exist or dose not exist. But the Buddha was enlightened and he knew didn't he? He made it clear to us that conditioned existence must have the characteristic of rise and fall, only nibbana does not rise and fall away. That unknown object out there which you are not sure whether it exists or not, would it be something that rises and falls away or something presumed to be solid and lasting in time? > But we perceive the seemingly existing object only through our sensory > doors, > so we are not in any position of providing a solid answer to the question. What we perceive through our senses is only seven of the twenty eight rupas which the Buddha pointed out. Do you think that the Buddha's enlightenment was limited? > Given that it's an ill-posed question, such a debate does not bring > any merit. It is an ill posed question when there is no Dhamma to refer to. The Dhamma covers all dhammas. And the important thing is that it can be proven "now". > If you are interested in, could you please read the following passage? > It is taken from Hawking, Stephen and Leonard Mlodinow. (2010). The > Grand Design, p. 39. London: Bantam Press. > > To me it's a pure dhamma. > > A few years ago the city council of Monza, Italy, barred pet owners > from keeping goldfish in curved goldfish bowls. The measurefs sponsor > explained the measure in part by saying that it is cruel to keep a > fish in a bowl with curved sides because, gazing out, the fish would > have a distorted view of reality. But how do we know we have the true, > undistorted picture of reality? Might not we ourselves also be inside > some big goldfish bowl and have our vision distorted by an enormous > lens? The goldfishfs picture of reality is different from ours, but > can we be sure it is less real? A similar idea was expressed hundreds of years ago by the Taoist Chuang Tzu when referring to the man dreaming he is a butterfly. My impression in that case was that this is simply an expression of doubt due to not knowing / understanding the Dhamma. When the Buddha's teachings is not known / understood, people can't help having doubt and speculating. Metta, Sukin #130192 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hit your finger with a hammer! sukinderpal Hi Rob E, > > It is the meditator who is contradicting himself. He agrees that the > > Buddha taught about the Five Khandhas and that these have the > > characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Yet his attitude towards > > practice is based clearly on the perception and view of "self" which he > > keeps defending endlessly. > > This disparaging characterization of all meditators is presumptuous, > and based only on the dogmatic idea that one cannot engage with > meditation without indulging self-view. This has been assumed by many > dsg members such as yourself, but has never been logically > demonstrated. It is stated over and over that "formal meditation" is > an expression of self-view and control, but that is not necessarily > the case, any more than reading Abhidhamma must be an expression of > self-view. I wish this recurrent presumption would not be stated as a > general rule, as if there is no doubt about it, and all meditators are > deluded indulgers in self-view. This is not the case, and is a wrong > view about meditation and meditators. > You consider my idea dogmatic does not make it so. From where I stand, its a matter of you not able to see that you are wrong and that I'm right. Do I have doubt? Yes, in the sense of having only intellectual understanding and far from realization. But when it comes to assessing the position held by meditators and recognizing the wrong view expressed, whatever little understanding that occasionally arises, has been reason for confidence rather than any wavering. I say that *all* those who meditate in the name of Dhamma practice do so as a result of wrong view! It is not possible that Right View will agree with the idea of formal meditation. You say that this position itself is wrong view. Please tell me how this is so, and I will explain to you why I think as I do. In the meantime I will continue to state that all formal meditation is the result of wrong view. Sukin #130193 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:19 am Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Jon, - > > I am glad to know that you are in such a good spirit and steadily recovering from the accident. I also hope that you will recuperate the bodily strength needed to enjoy the coming weekend. > > I did not know that a thick skull could be a blessing. :-) > =============== J: I am very blessed in that regard :-)) > =============== > T: The goal of Dhamma practice (meditation: bhavana --'calling into existence, producing'-- or patipada --path, progress; I like both) is to develop a certain qualities that did not arise or previously were weak. It is true, as you have said, direct understanding (direct knowing) is valuable as a tool to test one's real progess. [What one thinks one sees progress, it may be just an illusion.] > =============== J: Yes, I agree that our ideas of what is 'progress in the teachings' may well be mistaken. To my understanding, real progress only occurs when there is awareness of a currently arising dhamma. And that is also 'the practice of the teachings/path'. There is no actual distinction between the two. > =============== > >J: Given a choice between a translator's personal views and the Tipitaka text being > translated, I suggest going with the text :-)) ! > > T: Again, not surprisingly, I agree with you. There are good exceptions, though. > =============== J: Then we don't actually agree :-)) But perhaps we should leave it there for now. Jon #130194 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:34 am Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Hi Jon, - >Jon: To my understanding, real progress only occurs when there is awareness of a currently arising dhamma. And that is also 'the practice of the teachings/path'. There is no actual distinction between the two. T: It's obvious that the chicken looks different from the egg. ......... >>T: ... There are good exceptions, though. >Jon: Then we don't actually agree :-)) But perhaps we should leave it there for now. T: Okay, let's not worry about which translator's personal views are good. But by declaring that none of them is good, isn't it probably wrong? Be forgiving, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > ... > > T: The goal of Dhamma practice (meditation: bhavana --'calling into existence, producing'-- or patipada --path, progress; I like both) is to develop a certain qualities that did not arise or previously were weak. It is true, as you have said, direct understanding (direct knowing) is valuable as a tool to test one's real progess. [What one thinks one sees progress, it may be just an illusion.] > > =============== > > J: Yes, I agree that our ideas of what is 'progress in the teachings' may well be mistaken. To my understanding, real progress only occurs when there is awareness of a currently arising dhamma. And that is also 'the practice of the teachings/path'. There is no actual distinction between the two. > > > =============== > > >J: Given a choice between a translator's personal views and the Tipitaka text being > > translated, I suggest going with the text :-)) ! > > > > T: Again, not surprisingly, I agree with you. There are good exceptions, though. > > =============== > #130195 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:58 am Subject: Meditation and Right View t.sastri Hi Sukin (Rob E., Alex, Tadao) - >S: It is not possible that Right View will agree with the idea of formal meditation. T: The on-going discussion you currently have with Rob E., Alex and Tadao is thought-provoking. Thank you all! Now, allow me as a bystander to ask few questions for clarification. 1. Is "formal meditation" the same as samatha-vipassana? Please elaborate a little. 2. Is this Right View you are talking about same as described in Vism XVI, 76? If not, what is it? Vism XVI, 76: "Briefly (see Ch. XXII, 31 for details), when a meditator is progressing towards the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has right seeing as its characteristics. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance." Be well, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > > > > It is the meditator who is contradicting himself. He agrees that the > > > Buddha taught about the Five Khandhas and that these have the > > > characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Yet his attitude towards > > > practice is based clearly on the perception and view of "self" which he > > > keeps defending endlessly. #130196 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:31 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Jon, - > > >Jon: To my understanding, real progress only occurs when there is awareness of a currently arising dhamma. And that is also 'the practice of the teachings/path'. There is no actual distinction between the two. > > T: It's obvious that the chicken looks different from the egg. > =============== J: Yes, the egg grows/develops into the chicken. But I don't see a comparable relationship between 'practice' (of satipatthana/vipassana) and 'progress' (on the path): in each case what is being referenced is a moment of awarenss/insight. > =============== > >>T: ... There are good exceptions, though. > >Jon: Then we don't actually agree :-)) But perhaps we should leave it there for now. > > T: Okay, let's not worry about which translator's personal views are good. But by declaring that none of them is good, isn't it probably wrong? > =============== J: Just to clarify, I didn't say (or mean to imply) that all translators' personal views are wrong. What I was trying to say was that if there is a difference or contradiction between the translator's personal view and whatever is in the text being translated, then the text should be preferred. In the case of Ven. Soma's Introduction, it seems to me that the notions of 'preliminary object of contemplation' and 'wholetime awareness' are not mentioned in or supported by the Satipatthana Sutta and its commentaries as translated by the Ven. > Be forgiving, J: Happy to. But what is there to forgive? :-)) Jon #130197 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:37 pm Subject: Nina update, was:Thank you very much sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > By the power of your best wishes the operation is safely over, and I am now recovering at home. But I still cannot sit down to work on my computer for more than a few minutes at a time. > My own body parts which have become a potential murderer (vadhaka) have been removed. > But I still cannot remove the nandi-raaga, my intimate companion/murderer (antaracaro vadhako). > [I have been inspired by the passages from SN 35.238 Aasiivisopama sutta to write the above two sentences.] .... S: Glad to hear you're home and slowly recovering. No escape from old age, sickness, death and murderers whilst travelling in samsara. Thank you for the good reminders. *** We just spoke to Nina briefly. She's sounding more cheery and laughing too. She expects to be in the Rehab centre for another 6 -8 wks. She still experiences quite a lot of pain and finds it difficult being so dependant on others, such as needing help washing and so on. She can now walk a few steps and can get around in a wheelchair. She's especially enjoying being with others at meal times, which doesn't happen when she's at home. She said she's becoming more like my (very sociable) mother day by day, chatting and laughing:-) I had said to Jon that this might be a welcome break for her in this regard. The other good news is that she's now able to listen to Dhamma. She has the tapes from Thailand which she made in January and can listen to these again and again. I joked and suggested she'd better write a second series from them! Talking of which, she's sent me the file of the series that she was posting extracts from on the list. Jon plans to continue posting the extracts soon. Of course, I sent her everyone's best wishes and she sent hers to you all as well. Metta Sarah ====== #130198 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Nina update, was:Thank you very much tadaomiyamot... Dear Sarah Thank you for the news on Han's and Nina's recovery. If Nina can access the Internet at the hospital, she should listen to the Daily Dhamma Talk of the Foundation by clicking the icon of an antenna with radio-waves. Some are old and some are new talks, and their content changes daily. (I love listening it.) Mettaa tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Han & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > > By the power of your best wishes the operation is safely over, and I am now recovering at home. But I still cannot sit down to work on my computer for more than a few minutes at a time. > > > My own body parts which have become a potential murderer (vadhaka) have been removed. > > > But I still cannot remove the nandi-raaga, my intimate companion/murderer (antaracaro vadhako). > > > [I have been inspired by the passages from SN 35.238 Aasiivisopama sutta to write the above two sentences.] > .... > S: Glad to hear you're home and slowly recovering. No escape from old age, sickness, death and murderers whilst travelling in samsara. Thank you for the good reminders. > *** > > We just spoke to Nina briefly. She's sounding more cheery and laughing too. She expects to be in the Rehab centre for another 6 -8 wks. She still experiences quite a lot of pain and finds it difficult being so dependant on others, such as needing help washing and so on. > > She can now walk a few steps and can get around in a wheelchair. She's especially enjoying being with others at meal times, which doesn't happen when she's at home. She said she's becoming more like my (very sociable) mother day by day, chatting and laughing:-) I had said to Jon that this might be a welcome break for her in this regard. > > The other good news is that she's now able to listen to Dhamma. She has the tapes from Thailand which she made in January and can listen to these again and again. I joked and suggested she'd better write a second series from them! > > Talking of which, she's sent me the file of the series that she was posting extracts from on the list. Jon plans to continue posting the extracts soon. > > Of course, I sent her everyone's best wishes and she sent hers to you all as well. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #130199 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:05 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Hi Jon, - >Jon: Yes, the egg grows/develops into the chicken. But I don't see a comparable relationship between 'practice' (of satipatthana/vipassana) and 'progress' (on the path): in each case what is being referenced is a moment of awarenss/insight. T: A simple relationship may be overlooked here: no practice, no progress. In other words, with no right exertion (samma vayama) there is no entering into the path(magga). With right exertion, there can be a moment of awarenss/insight of the path after the hindrances have been abandoned. Mundane awarenss/insight is weak because the hindrances are in charge. "Herein the disciple rouses his will to overcome the evil, unwholesome states that have already arisen and he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives." [AN 4:13; Word of the Buddha, p. 58.] >J: Just to clarify, I didn't say (or mean to imply) that all translators' personal views are wrong. ... In the case of Ven. Soma's Introduction, etc. T: Thanks for the clarification. > >T: Be forgiving, > J: Happy to. But what is there to forgive? :-)) T: Good for you! Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, - > > > > >Jon: To my understanding, real progress only occurs when there is awareness of a currently arising dhamma. And that is also 'the practice of the teachings/path'. There is no actual distinction between the two. > > > > T: It's obvious that the chicken looks different from the egg. > > =============== >