#131200 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:27 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > J: The term "supporting condition" is very broad and includes conditions that are much less direct that the term "stepping stone" would imply. I don't think metta could be described as a stepping stone to awareness/insight (sorry!:-)). > > > > > > RE: Well the supportive conditions that are created by metta and other forms of kusala do seem to at least create the potential for greater understanding. I think there are other ways in which these form supports for the path, but I can't claim that I have the specifics to any extent. My view of those things is different than the idea that only understanding leads to more understanding. > > > =============== > > > > J: Regarding, "the idea that only understanding leads to more understanding", the arising of understanding requires a number of conditions, not just (already accumulated) understanding. > > I am sure they are listed somewhere. Is such a list handy? I'd like to see the conditions that support/create the possibility of mindfulness/understanding/panna to arise. > > > But, yes, previously developed understanding will be a significant factor in how readily understanding will arise in the present lifetime. > > Well that sounds a lot more reasonable if previous arisings are *part* of the conditinality for future re-arising and development. > > > As I see it, understanding is no different from the other wholesome (or, for that matter, the unwholesome) tendencies. All such tendencies are accumulated with each arising and, having been accumulated, lie latent except when conditioned to manifest. > > Makes sense. > > > They remain accumulated until, in the case of the unwholesome ones, they are eradicated progressively at the 4 stages of enlightenment or until, in the case of the wholesome ones, parinibbaana is attained. > > > > I don't know whether this notion of accumulated tendencies is one that you accept, but I see it as being fundamental to the teachings as a whole. > > I don't see a problem with that on the face of it. The question at hand though is how such accumulations mutually support the development of further degrees of each of the factors, and in what way one is a condition or pre-condition for the others. > =============== J: You ask (I think) in what way accumulated tendencies support the arising of that tendency. I'm not sure there's an answer to that question as put. As I understand it, an actually arising/occurring tendency is in fact a manifestation of that very tendency as already accumulated. This is perhaps easier to see in the case of the unwholesome tendencies. It is explained that these exist at 3 levels: anusaya (latent tendency), pariyutthana (manifestation) and vitikkama (transgression). The following passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Noble Eightfold Path" was quoted in a recent message of Thep's: "The Buddha teaches that the defilements are stratified into three layers: the stage of latent tendency, the stage of manifestation, and the stage of transgression. "The most deeply grounded is the level of latent tendency (anusaya), where a defilement merely lies dormant without displaying any activity. "The second level is the stage of manifestation (pariyutthana), where a defilement, through the impact of some stimulus, surges up in the form of unwholesome thoughts, emotions, and volitions. "Then, at the third level, the defilement passes beyond a purely mental manifestation to motivate some unwholesome action of body or speech. Hence this level is called the stage of transgression (vitikkama)." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/130212 As we all know from our experience in life, different people have different dispositions: cheerful, shy, generous, helpful, conceited, outgoing, grumpy, etc. Now, these `dispositions' are nothing more than the manifestation of various accumulated wholesome and unwholesome tendencies/mental factors. The individual mental factors are common to all, but the frequency and strength of their manifestation depends, in part at lease, on the degree to which they have been accumulated. Of course, other factors have a bearing also. For example, everyone has accumulated the liking (attachment) for a particular flavour. Now if that flavour is put before us, attachment is bound to arise, it can't be helped. On the other hand, if the flavour is not encountered or thought about for a time, then that attachment probably will not arise. Likewise with things that irk/annoy us. The principle is the same regardless of whether the mental factor is a wholesome or an unwholesome one. However, in the case of wholesome mental factors that have been accumulated but not developed to a high degree, the conditions for their further arising may be few and far between. And that is particularly so as regards awareness/insight. Hoping this makes sense. Jon #131201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (15) nilovg Dear Han, Op 11-jun-2013, om 23:22 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven > > 116. How a Noble One Dwells [AN 6.10 Mahaanaama Sutta] > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Kapilavatthu in the > Banyan-tree Monastery. Then Mahaanaama the Sakyan approached the > Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat down to one side. So > seated, he said to the Blessed One: > > "Lord, in what way does a noble disciple often dwell when he has > arrived at the fruit and understood the teaching?" > > "When, Mahaanaama, a noble disciple has arrived at the fruit and > understood the teaching, he often dwells in such a way as this. > Here, a noble disciple recollects the Tathaagata thus: 'The Blessed > One is an arahant, fully enlightened, accomplished in true > knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of the world, unsurpassed > leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the > Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' When a noble disciple recollects > the Tathaagata thus, on that occasion his mind is not obsessed by > lust, hatred or delusion; his mind is straight, with the Tathaagata > as its object. A noble disciple whose mind is straight gains the > inspiration of the meaning, the inspiration of the Dhamma, gains > gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened rapture > arises; for one uplifted by rapture the body becomes calm; one calm > in body feels happy; for one who is happy the mind becomes > concentrated. This is called a noble disciple who dwells > evenly amidst an uneven generation, who dwells unafflicted amidst > an afflicted generation, who has entered upon the stream of the > Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha. > ------- N: As Acharn said, when one develops right understanding of realities one begins to understand who the teacher, the Buddha is. Confidence can grow. Mahaanaama was a sotaapanna, and we are only beginners. But still, we can consider that without the Buddha we would not have any idea about paramattha dhammas, we would only dwell in the world of conventional ideas, such as this problem we have and that person who spoke to us in this or that way. Thinking on and on about what is not reality. I translated some Dhamma issues from Thai and I quote: < He lives in abundance, in Pali: bahula viharti. He abides with six vihra dhammas, six recollections: recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, sla, the devas and liberality. Attha--veda, dhamma-veda. According to the Commentary, veda, which can mean knowledge, is here pti-pmojjam (rapture and delight) arising with respect to attha-kath (explanation of the meaning) and pli, which means text. Attha can be translated as goal, but it can also mean: the meaning. The same is said with regard to the other five recollections. With these six Recollections as meditation subjects, the ariyan can attain access concentration but not attainment concentration (appan- samdhi) or jhna. His unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem conditions calm and happiness. It is said that he lives in happiness, but, as we shall see, this is an abiding different from the peaceful abiding, arana vihra, which can lead to fruition-attainment. > As to fruition attainment, phala samaadhi, the ariyan who has attained enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different stages of jhna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhnafactors in conformity with the stage of jhna he has attained. -------- Nina. #131202 From: "Gregory E. LeBlanc" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Dieter and Ann, 2. gleblanc108 yes, thank you, very clear. everything is dukkha beacasue everything is changing...everything of NAMA and RUPA, which is everything... what do you think is quantifiably different from this approach as opposed to "noting" (both seem to derive from Burmese Buddhism) . the result seems to me to be the same; in one you are a passive observer (watching a play) of the NAMA and RUPA, and in the other you are noting NAMA and RUPA (seeing, hearing, thinking, etc...)? thank you very much g. Gregory E. LeBlanc, MSOM, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac., Dipl.C.H. <....> > S: Seeing consciousness, hearing, sound, attachment, wisdom - all > conditioned dhammas arise and fall way are therefore inherently > unsatisfactory, not worth clinging to. > > It is because of tanha, clinging to that which is unsatisfactory > (dukkha), that the rounds of birth and death continue on and on, from > moment to moment, life to life. Because of clinging and ignorance, > there is kamma, which brings results by way of birth, seeing, hearing > and so on. More clinging, more kamma, more results. <....> #131203 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:51 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: (D: the difference is not really clear to me .. and how does that go together with the Bodhisattva Vehicle , which I understand connects the Mahyana Tradition? ) --------------------------------- HCW: Both Mahayana and Theravada have a Bodhisattva (Pali 'Bodhisatta') Vehicle, but the notions differ, and, to me, the Mahayana view is extremely complex and rather odd, with a Bodhisattva at times seemingly considered superior to a Buddha. In Theravada, it "simply" means the "career" of one who is on the path to Buddhahood, following upon a vow to that effect, as opposed to (only) being on the path to becoming an arahant. D: yes, Theravada uses the term only for those on the path to the Samma Sambuddhadasa , who is 'Setting in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma'. The idea of superiority is obviously due to that ' Mahāyāna tradition holds that pursuing only the release from suffering and attainment of Nirvāṇa is too narrow an aspiration, because it lacks the motivation of actively resolving to liberate all other sentient beings from samsara. One who engages in this path is called a bodhisattva' HCW: I don't see *any* connection between the emptiness element of Mahayana and its Bodhisattva Ideal. ----------------------------- D: I am not sure whether such view influenced as well the Abhidhamma version of Mahayana. B.T.W. I stumbled recently upon a DSG discussion (topic : sabbe dhamma anatta from November 02 , in which you too participated) , inspired by the present proposition of unconditioned dhammas ( still waiting for any canonical evidence) with Metta Dieter #131204 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (15) hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: As Acharn said, when one develops right understanding of realities one begins to understand who the teacher, the Buddha is. Confidence can grow. Mahaanaama was a sotaapanna, and we are only beginners. But still, we can consider that without the Buddha we would not have any idea about paramattha dhammas, we would only dwell in the world of conventional ideas, such as this problem we have and that person who spoke to us in this or that way. Thinking on and on about what is not reality. I translated some Dhamma issues from Thai and I quote: < He lives in abundance, in Pali: bahulaÿ viharåti. He abides with six vihåra dhammas, six recollections: recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, síla, the devas and liberality. Attha--vedaÿ, dhamma-vedaÿ. According to the Commentary, veda, which can mean knowledge, is here píti-påmojjam (rapture and delight) arising with respect to attha-kathå (explanation of the meaning) and påli, which means text. Attha can be translated as goal, but it can also mean: the meaning. The same is said with regard to the other five recollections. With these six Recollections as meditation subjects, the ariyan can attain access concentration but not attainment concentration (appanå-samådhi) or jhåna. His unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem conditions calm and happiness. It is said that he lives in happiness, but, as we shall see, this is an abiding different from the “peaceful abiding”, arana vihåra, which can lead to fruition-attainment. > As to fruition attainment, phala samaadhi, the ariyan who has attained enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with the stage of jhåna he has attained. -------------------- Han: Thank you very much, Nina, for the above very useful comments. I will study them carefully. with mettta and respect, Han From: Nina van Gorkom Dear Han, Op 11-jun-2013, om 23:22 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven > 116. How a Noble One Dwells [AN 6.10 Mahaanaama Sutta] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #131205 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:38 am Subject: Nibbindati ( wsFwd: Re: Burning down the House philofillet Dear Group Here is a useful post which clarifies the meaning of an expression which is misinterpreted by many people when suttas are read in translation without understanding. Phil > Thanks for quoting the Fire sermon, a favourite sutta. > I thought you might like to hear a little about a key term in this > sutta - nibbindati. > In the translation it says " > > Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones > > disregards the eye and he disregards forms, and he disregards eye- > > consciousness, and he disregards eye-contact, and the feeling that > > arises from eye-contact - be it pleasant ore painful or neither > > painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > > __________ > Nibbindati is translated here as 'disregards'. Bhikkhu bodhi in his > translation has 'experiences revulsion'. Both of these terms are > valid as literal meanings but it is good to know more about the > context so that we can understand it better. > In the sutta preceeding this (samyuttanikaya salayatanvagga 27(4) > Full understanding) > The Buddha says > > > "Sabba bhikkhave, anabhijana aparijana avirajaya appajaha > abhabbo dukkhakkhayaya. > This is translated (relying On ven. bodhi's translation) as > Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the > all (sabba), without developing dispassion towards it and > abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. > > Kica, bhikkhave, sabba ...? > And what (kinca), bhikkhus is the all..? > > Yaca, bhikkhave cakkhu, ye ca rupa, yaca cakkhuviana, ye ca > cakkhuviana aviatabba dhamma?epeats for other senses. > > The eye and forms and eyeconsciousness and things to be cognised by > eyeconsciousness. > > there are many other suttas in these same section of the tipitaka > explaining again and again how it is by fully understanding the eye > and eye consciousness and visible object and the other senses that > detachment grows and leads to nibbana. > This is rather crucial as we might read the fire sermon and > see "disregards eye and disregards form and he disregards > eyeconsciousness .." to mean avoiding these contacts. Thus we might > aim for some refined state of mind where we can't experience seeing, > or think we should close our eyes to have insight. In fact the path > is one of understanding all these contacts. This eventually leads to > nibbindati because the true nature of seeing and form and eye is > known (impermanent, dukkha and not-self) which naturally comes with > profound detachement. > When venerable Bodhi says "experiences revulsion" he gives a very > literal translation of nibbindati but we should know that this > really indicates a deep detachement with no aversion (and that only > arises in association with pleasant or neutral feeling). > robert > > > > In dhamma-list@y..., mary.reinard@b... wrote: > > > The Fire Sermon > > Translated from Pali as found in "The Selected Suttas" pamphlet > > Chithurst Buddhist Monastery: > > > > With his skill in training the trainable, the All-transcendent > > Buddha, clear speaker, teacher of highest knowledge, he who > expounds > > the Dhamma and Vinaya (training) that is fitting and worthy to the > > people, teaching this delightful fire parable to meditators of > > highest skill has liberated those who listen with the liberation > that > > needs no further training, through the true investigation of the > wise > > and attentive. Let us recite this Sutta displaying the > > characteristics of Dukkha. > > *** > > > > Thus have I heard: > > At one time the Blessed One was staying near Gaya at Gaya Head > > together with a thousand bhikkhus. There the Blessed One addressed > > the bhikkhus thus: > > > > "Bhikkhus, everything is burning. And what, bhikkhus, is everything > > that is burning? The eye, bhikkhus, is burning, forms are burning, > > eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, the feeling > > which arises from eye-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither > > painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning > > with birth, ageing, and death, with grief, lamentation, pain, > sorrow > > and despair. > > > > The ear is burning, sounds are burning, ear-consciousness is > burning, > > ear-contact is burning, the feeling which arises from ear-contact, > be > > it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is > > burning. With what is it burning? I declare it is burning with the > > fire of lust, hatred and delusion; it is burning with birth, > ageing, > > and death, with grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow and despair. > > > > The nose is burning, odors are burning, nose-consciousness is > > burning, nose-contact is burning, the feeling which arises from > nose- > > consciousness is burning, tongue-contact is burning, the feeling > > which arises from tongue-contact, be it pleasant or painful or > > neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it > > burning? I declare it is burning with the fire of lust, hatred and > > delusion; it is burning with birth, ageing, and death, with grief, > > lamentation, pain, sorrow and despair. > > > > The body is burning, tangible objects are burning, body- > consciousness > > is burning, body-contact is burning, the feeling which arises from > > body-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor > > pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I declared > it > > is burning with the fire of lust, hatred and delusion; it is > burning > > with birth, ageing, and death, with grief, lamentation, pain, > sorrow > > and despair. > > > > The mind is burning, mental states are burning, mind-consciousness > is > > burning, mind-contact is burning, the feeling which arises through > > mind-contact, be it pleasant ore painful or neither painful nor > > pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I declare > it > > is burning with the fire of lust, hatred and delusion; it is > burning > > with birth, ageing, and death, with grief, lamentation, pain, > sorrow > > and despair. > > > > Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones > > disregards the eye and he disregards forms, and he disregards eye- > > consciousness, and he disregards eye-contact, and the feeling that > > arises from eye-contact - be it pleasant ore painful or neither > > painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > > > He disregards the ear and he disregards sounds, and he disregards > ear- > > consciousness, and he disregards ear-contact, and the feeling that > > arises from ear-contact - be it pleasant or painful or neither > > painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > > > He disregards the nose and he disregards odors, and he disregards > > nose-consciousness, and he disregards nose-contact, and the feeling > > that arises from nose-contact - be it pleasant or painful or > neither > > painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > > > He disregards the tongue and he disregards tastes, and he > disregards > > tongue-consciousness, and he disregards tongue-contact, and the > > feeling that arises from tongue-contact - be it pleasant ore > painful > > or neither painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > > > He disregards the body and he disregards tangible objects, and he > > disregards body-consciousness, and he disregards body-contact, and > > the feeling that arises from body-contact - be it pleasant ore > > painful or neither painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > > > He disregards the mind and he disregards mental states, and he > > disregards mind-consciousness, and he disregards mind-contact, and > > the feeling that arises from mind contact - be it pleasant or > painful > > or neither painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > Disregarding, he is dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; > in > > freedom the knowledge comes to be, 'I am freed', and he > > comprehends: 'Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahmafaring, done > is > > what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such'." > > > > Thus spoke the Blessed One; delighted, the group of five bhikkhus > > rejoiced in what the Lord had said. Moreover, while this discourse > > was being uttered, the minds of those thousand bhikkhus were freed > > from the defilements, without any further attachment. > > > > End of Fire Sermon. > > > > Moral of the story? Never play house with a group of Buddhist > unless > > your looking to end the game:) > > > > Much Metta and congratulations to all those of you who make it this > > final line. > > > > Still burning, > > But getting cooler, > > Mary > --- End forwarded message --- > #131206 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:57 am Subject: Re: A Message on Nagarjuna to Ken & Tony kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> > HCW: There are teachings in the Pali suttas that don't quite go in this direction, Ken. I'll give a handful at the end. ---- KH: Never mind teachings (plural), if the suttas contained just one teaching that didn't go completely in that direction then none of the Pali Canon would go in that direction. You have been posting those quotes on a regular basis for the past ten years or so, Howard. You make no comment when people explain how they do in fact fit *perfectly* into the teaching of conditioned absolute realities. You just post them again. What more can I say? Perhaps I could repeat my point: the Pali texts must be *completely* consistent. There would be no point in some of them saying dhammas existed absolutely (had inherent characteristics) while others said the opposite. Ken H #131207 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:13 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Ken & Tony) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > you wrote: > > > (D: the difference is not really clear to me .. and how does that go together with the Bodhisattva Vehicle , which I understand connects the Mahyana Tradition? ) > --------------------------------- > HCW: > Both Mahayana and Theravada have a Bodhisattva (Pali 'Bodhisatta') Vehicle, but the notions differ, and, to me, the Mahayana view is extremely complex and rather odd, with a Bodhisattva at times seemingly considered superior to a Buddha. In Theravada, it "simply" means the "career" of one who is on the path to Buddhahood, following upon a vow to that effect, as opposed to (only) being on the path to becoming an arahant. > > D: yes, Theravada uses the term only for those on the path to the Samma Sambuddhadasa , who is 'Setting in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma'. > The idea of superiority is obviously due to that ' Mahāyāna tradition holds that pursuing only the release from suffering and attainment of Nirvāṇa is too narrow an aspiration, because it lacks the motivation of actively resolving to liberate all other sentient beings from samsara. One who engages in this path is called a bodhisattva' ------------------------ HCW: The oddness of this perspective, it seems to me, is that it appears to presume that the compassion of arahants is lacking in some fashion, which I consider silly. (There are also in Mahayana the "Celestial Bodhsattvas/Buddhas" (if I have the name right)who are much like gods in the theistic sense and are often treated as beyond "ordinary buddhas". (Tony, please correct me if I am wrong on this!) And, to confuse matters further, sometimes some Zen folks use 'buddha' much as 'arahant' is used in the Pali suttas. --------------------------- > > > > HCW: I don't see *any* connection between the emptiness element of Mahayana and its Bodhisattva Ideal. > ----------------------------- > > D: I am not sure whether such view influenced as well the Abhidhamma version of Mahayana. ----------------------------- HCW: I wasn't aware that there IS a "Mahayana Abhidhamma." ----------------------------- > > > B.T.W. I stumbled recently upon a DSG discussion (topic : sabbe dhamma anatta from November 02 , in which you too participated) , inspired by > the present proposition of unconditioned dhammas ( still waiting for any canonical evidence) ------------------------- HCW: ??? I don't recall. -------------------------- > > > > with Metta Dieter ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #131208 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:30 am Subject: Re: A Message on Nagarjuna to Ken & Tony upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > ---- > <. . .> > > HCW: There are teachings in the Pali suttas that don't quite go in this direction, Ken. I'll give a handful at the end. > ---- > > KH: Never mind teachings (plural), if the suttas contained just one teaching that didn't go completely in that direction then none of the Pali Canon would go in that direction. > > You have been posting those quotes on a regular basis for the past ten years or so, Howard. You make no comment when people explain how they do in fact fit *perfectly* into the teaching of conditioned absolute realities. You just post them again. What more can I say? -------------------------------- HCW: I don't recall alternate understandings of these, Ken. How about you telling me exactly how *you* understand each of them? That would perhaps engender a conversation on the matter that has real content. BTW, what do you *mean* by an "absolute conditioned reality"? The term sounds self-contradictory to me. --------------------------- > > Perhaps I could repeat my point: the Pali texts must be *completely* consistent. There would be no point in some of them saying dhammas existed absolutely (had inherent characteristics) while others said the opposite. -------------------------- HCW: Nowhere do I see in the suttas the assertion of dhammas, with the exception of the asankhata dhamma, as "absolute realities," but I see the opposite all over the place. (In fact, in one sutta, the Dvayatanupassana Sutta, the Buddha both describes the phenomena of mind & body as unreal on the one hand and nibbana as real on the other.) So consistency might well require the opposite of what you think it would. ------------------------- > > Ken H > ============================ With metta, Howard Nothing Said, Nothing Upsetting / .... / (Howard) #131209 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:19 am Subject: Re: Poor Venerable Aananda! To Han Tun puthujjana - The Middle Way thomaslaw03 Hi Sarah, ----- > S: ... all dhammas (apart from nibbana)... T: No, it is not 'apart from nibbana.' It should include nibbana in that context. Nibbana refers to the cessation of dukkha (suffering) or asavana (influxes) in Early Buddhism. ----- > S: ... I like the way it is stressed earlier in the sutta that "whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality." > T: It should mean: " ... this 'constancy of phenomena' (dhamma.t.thitataa), this 'certainty of phenomena' (dhammaniyaamataa), this 'causal relatedness' (idappaccayataa)." (The Fundamental Teaching of Early Buddhism, p. 153). --------- Thomas #131210 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth and control philofillet Hi Alex Please assume a2d when I don't reply to your posts. Thanks. Phil #131211 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:39 am Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma thomaslaw03 Hi Sarah --- > ... > S: We have a different understanding here. Computer ad concepts are not dhammas (realities or phenomena), arisen by causal condition, pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa. > > The dhammas that are conditioned are the khandhas, i.e. cittas, cetasikas and rupas only. > > They are the "all" that exist, apart from the unconditioned nibbana. T: According to the teachings of "pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa" or "pa.tccasamuppaada", they (khandhas, or cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or Computer, concepts) are phenomena (dhammaa). They all are arisen by causal condition. Nibbana refers to the cessation of dukkha (suffering) or of asavana (influxes) ------ Thomas #131212 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:41 pm Subject: Words from Ajahn Sujin 9 (Patience and the development of satipatthana) philofillet Dear group, "The development of the Aryan eightfold path is actually the development of the four satipatthanas. It is the development of awareness and right understanding of the characteristics of realities as they appear one at a time in our daily lives through the sense doors and through the mind door. Mindfulness is not easy and in the beginning it cannot often arise. The reason is that ignorance clinging and all the other akusala dhammas have been accumulated for an endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death. And also in this life from the time we were born defilements have been accumulated each day. The person who correctly understand cause and result of realities knows that he needs great patience and perseverance so that he is able to listen to the Dhamma to study it carefully and to consider it. Only thus can one have understanding of the realities that appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body sense and the mind door." (From SPD, p.317) Phil #131213 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth and control sukinderpal Hi Alex, > > >S:While lobha does stay with us till before Arahat, the one that > >accompanies wrong practice is eradicated at sotapatti magga. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Yes. Wrong practices (rites&rituals) are those like ox-duty, dog-duty > and other similar practices. I don't know ANY Dhamma teachers who > teach that. > What you cite are conventional examples only. But silabbatamarasa or clinging to rites and rituals being intimately tied to self-view, is any activity done with the idea that it is kusala and/or that it leads to increased kusala or wisdom. Most Dhamma teachers theses days encourage such kind of activities as opposed to pointing out what the Four Noble Truths are and therefore the need to development understanding of whatever appears "now". > > >Although you are correct that lobha can't be avoided and that Stream > >Entry comes first, to conclude however, that one must therefore be > >driven by lobha to practice is wrong understanding. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Lobha for Dhamma practice, can lead one to Anagami stage. Sure. It > can't lead to Arhatship. But let us first become Anagami and then > worry about passion for Dhamma. > Lobha is lobha. Dhamma practice as object does not make the lobha somehow good or less bad. If lobha can lead to Anagami, what according to you, does panna lead to? > > >S: Lobha is the cause of Dukkha > > Which one experiences even as Anagami. > You mean an Anagami can be reborn one last time, in a higher plane of existence? Do you think one can reach such a stage without ever understanding lobha for what it is? And if understood, why would any lobha be encouraged? > > >The imperative is to better understand lobha rather than use it > >as an excuse for wrong practice... [snip] > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > So lets talk about "right" practice then. > Yes, let us. Is right practice according to you, a conditioned dhamma? If not, why? > >If one had any right understanding as to what is samatha and what is > >vipassana, one would see that such ideas is due to wrong > >understanding about both. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Wrong understanding by whom? > He who does not know what samatha is and what is vipassana, and therefore imagines that practicing the former leads to greater possibility of the latter arising. > >Why consider only magga and phala cittas, why not seeing, hearing, > >thinking, pariyatti, patipatti also? Can you will any of these cittas > >to arise? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > One can't will them to arise, just like an untrained person can't will > skill to arise. But through PRACTICE, eventually, little by little, > they can. > Can a Buddha will "seeing" to arise? Can an uninstructed worldling will ignorance to arise? Metta, Sukin #131214 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus for Ajahn Sujin epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > You always inspire me with your good questions. Thank you very much! I am very happy to get your response. > Op 9-jun-2013, om 22:17 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > "What is the supporting or conditioning relationship of metta, > > sila, dana, jhana and other kusala factors in the development of > > panna/vipassana, if any? What is their relation to the path?" > ------ > N: Here we have to consider the perfections, paramis, which all > support pa~n~naa in its development. All kinds of kusala through > body, speech and mind are perfections if the aim is right: lessening > selfishness and all defilements. We are like sick people, not having > sufficient strength to reach the other shore. We need medicine and > these are the perfections. None of these should be neglected. > Whatever opportunity for kusala arises, it can be developed as a > perfection. But we should not forget that it is just a reality, a > dhamma, not self. Thanks for making clear that the perfections - all kusala when developed with the aim to lessen self and reduce defilements - help to strengthen our ability to follow the path. That is very helpful. > You mention jhaana, but it need not be the degree of ruupa-jhaana or > aruupa-jhaana, there can be moments of calm when considering the > virtues of the Buddha. The idea that samatha or jhana can be reached to a certain degree through contemplating the virtues of the Buddha is good to know. I wonder if contemplation of metta which can sometimes be tied to jhana is a similar sort of situation. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #131215 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:43 pm Subject: Re: A Message on Nagarjuna to Ken & Tony kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> > > KH: You have been posting those quotes on a regular basis for the past ten years or so, Howard. You make no comment when people explain how they do in fact fit *perfectly* into the teaching of conditioned absolute realities. You just post them again. What more can I say? >> > HCW: I don't recall alternate understandings of these, Ken. ---- KH: Allow me to jog your memory. Taking them in the order you have given them, the first was: >> H: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ >> KH: Surely you can remember posting that on many, many occasions at DSG, and being given alternate understandings of it. (?) On the occasion before this one, you wrote to Jon: "But the Buddha taught in AN 4.24 that "When knowing-through-any-sense-door what is to be known, he doesn't construe a known. <. . .>" < message #130320> As you explained in 130839 your point was >>"I believe that he is saying that among any of the things that might be known by him, he doesn't presume there to be self-existent entities that are known, <. . .>." >> Connie was the first to respond on that occasion with what Sarah referred to as the "Helpful notes, Pali and comments in your mini-series. Thank you." Here is just one brief extract from an extensive explanation given in Connie's #130824: "Ta.m tathaagato na upa.t.thaasi. Mp: "The Tathaagata did not become subservient to any object at the six sense doors, that is, he did not take it up na upaga~nchi) through craving or views. For it is said: 'The Blessed One sees a form with the eye, but he has no desire and lust for it; the Blessed One is fully liberated in mind ... The Blessed One cognizes a phenomenon with the mind, but he has no desire and lust for it; the Blessed One cognizes a phenomenon with the mind, but he has no desire and lust for it; the Blessed One is fully liberated in mind' (see SN 35:232; IV 164-65). By this the plane of arahantship (khii.naasavabhuumi) is indicated."" ----------- KH: Your next quote was: >> /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick " this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ >> (From the Phena Sutta) KH: You have quoted that one so many times on DSG it could be called the Howard Sutta. :-) On one occasion Rob M replied to you with a quote from Bodhi B which read in part: "In the context of early Buddhist thought these similes have to be handled with care. They are not intended to suggest an illusionist view of the world but to show that our conceptions of the world, and of our own existence, are largely distorted by the process of cognition. Just as the mirage and the magical illusion are based on real existents - the sand of the desert, the magician's appurtenances - so these false conceptions arise from a base that objectively exists, namely the five aggregates; but when seen through a mind subject to conceptual distortion, the aggregates appear in a way that deviates from their actual nature. Instead of being seen as transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and self." KH: Just one brief part of a reply from Sarah reads: "Spk: As a plaintain trunk (kadalikkhandha) is an assemblage of many sheaths, each with its own characteristic, so the aggregate of volitional formations is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic." KH: Mostly, the explanations have centred on "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 224. In detail [that is, individually] matter should be regarded as a lump of froth because it will not stand squeezing, feeling as a bubble on water because it can only be enjoyed for an instant, perception as a mirage because it causes illusion, formations as a plantain trunk because it has no core, and consciousness as a conjuring trick because it deceives (S.iii,140-42). KH: I am not saying all of the many DSG explanations of the Phena Sutta have been given directly in response to posts from you, but I suspect the majority of them have been. ----------- KH: The next quote was: >> /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none " such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ >> >>(From the Uraga Sutta) KH: A message from good old Dan 9835 reads in part: "Nyanaponika wrote a little about his translation in an essay entitled "The Worn-out Skin" [I believe it is a "Wheel" or "Bodhi Leaves" publication through BPS, a selection of which are compiled into a book called "Vision of Dhamma"]. I quote: "The world is 'unreal' in the sense of presenting a deceptive appearance, being quite different in actuality from the way it appears to a greedy, lustful, hating, and ignorant mind. The Pali word 'vitatha', here rendered by 'unreal,' has both in Pali and Sanskrit the meaning of 'untrue' or 'false.' [The CSCD dictionary agrees precisely]. These verses, however, are not meant to convey the idea that the world is mere illusion, a play of the imagination. What underlies its deceptive appearance, the flux of mental and physical processes, is real enough in the sense that it is effect-producing. The unreality lies in what we attribute to the world, and not in the world itself. ------- KH: And lastly you quoted: >> /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ >> >>(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) KH: In an extensive reply to your #108192 Sarah (in 113152) quoted Ken O's reply: >> KO: lets look at the sutta closely. <> This is real is refering to self conceit taking not-self as self. Then it start to imagine this self is real. So that is why the subsequent statement, < >> > S: Yes, on and on in samsara, we take what is not-self for self, what is suffering for pleasurable and what is impermanent for permanent. Obscured by ignorance and blinded by wrong view, we fail to see the Truth that only a Buddha can reveal. ----------- KH: So, Howard, I hope that has jogged your memory. Do you now recall some of the alternate understandings that have been given to your quotes? Ken H #131216 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion with A.Sujin, Kaeng Krachan 6.6.13 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (As mentioned, I lost an earlier reply, so this is a second attempt): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > this is a very important post to me. I was often wodering about the > primaries as yakkas, or deceivers, and was about to ask a question > about this. How do they deceive? What are they doing? This post makes > it clearer to me, but perhaps Acharn can still elaborate about this. .... S: (Your comments are with what I wrote at the end of this post) I read out what I had written and also the following from Vism: >The "Visuddhimagga" (XI, 100) states that the four Great Elements are "deceivers": "And just as the great creatures known as female spirits (yakkhinii) conceal their own fearfulness with a pleasing colour, shape and gesture to deceive beings, so too, these elements conceal each their own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc., by means of a pleasing skin colour of women's and men's bodies, etc., and pleasing shapes of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes and eyebrows, and they deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual essences to be seen. Thus they are great primaries (mahaa-bhuuta) in being equal to the great creatures (mahaa-bhuuta), the female spirits, since they are deceivers." With regard to your qus, A.Sujin pointed to a yellow book and stressed that the 4 great primaries are not yellow, but appear as yellow or a book. So in this way, the primary elements can 'transfer' into many things like food or flowers. They 'transfer' to diferent colours and shapes and forms all the time. In fact, only hardness, softness and other rupas appear through the senses, but the rupas with them make it seem as if there is a pattern, a shape, a form. So the text (and what I summarised below) is referring to the rupas and the nimitta and anupyanjana (signs and details of those rupas). It indicates that countless rupas arise and fall away all the time. Not only shape or nimitta appears, but also all the details too. Whenever there are the 4 primary rupas arising, there must also be that which can impinge on the eyes too (becauase visible object arises in every kalapa of rupas). When there is understanding of that reality or quality which impinges, it can be known there is no person, no thing in it at all. Indeed, how could there be an idea of 'person' if visible object did not impinge on the eye-sense many, many times? Sanna has to mark what impinges many, many times in order for it to be taken for some thing or some person - the 20 attanuditthi (atta views) when there is the idea of "I" in the rupa and so on, taking something out of that rupa which appears. Hope that helps further. Metta Sarah > >S: She went on to talk about how the object, visible object, also > > arises and falls away countless times. It arises with the 4 primary > > rupas and also taste, smell and nutritive essence but they are not > > seen, forming up the shape and form. So there is the nimitta or > > sign of the visible object, the hardness, softness, heat and > > cold. It seems there is some thing, such as different eyebrows and > > different eyes. If each visible object, softness or hardness were > > not different, they could not condition that which appears > > differently. For example, there is hardness here and hardness > > there, arising and falling away, but each hardness is a different > > quality and quantity and it conditions different appearances like > > signs or marks, leading to different ideas of some thing and > > different concepts. Without shapes and forms, without different > > colours, there'd be no idea of what this object is, whether it's a > > table or a cup or anything. #131217 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:13 pm Subject: Re: Poor Venerable Aananda! To Tep sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Of course whether one is meditating or eating a croissant self-view will get in the way anyway when it arises as will the wish to control. But that doesn't mean that meditation is useless or fruitless. ... S: Anytime self-view or an idea of self being able to control anything arises, it is not only useless but is the wrong path. I think it's more useful to talk about different realities, rather than different scenarios. It is the belief or understanding that is important, rather than any described activity. ... >Both practice and the understanding of dhammas can coexist, ... S: What do you mean by 'practice' here? When the Buddha spoke about practice (patipatti), it always refers to right understanding, the right path. .... >....unless one has an extreme dismissal of all worldly conditions and activities, which I do not think is the way the Buddha taught..... .... S: And the conditions given for right 'practice' (patipatti) by the Buddha were hearing the Teachings and wise consideration of what has been heard. Metta Sarah ==== #131218 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (12) sarahprocter... Dear Han, An excellent sutta: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > 112. Praising the Buddha [AN 5.194 Kaara.napaali Sutta] <...> > "But what has the honourable Pi"ngiyaani noticed in the ascetic Gotama that he has such great faith in him?" > > "Just as a man who has found satisfaction in the choicest of tastes will not yearn for other tastes of an inferior kind; so too, dear sir, one will no longer have a liking for the doctrines of those many other ascetics and brahmins, after one has listened to Master Gotama's Dhamma, be it discourses, mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts. > > "Just as a man weakened by hunger who comes upon a honey cake, wherever he eats of it he will enjoy a sweet, delicious taste; so too, dear sir, whatever one hears of Master Gotama's Dhamma, be it discourses, mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts, one will derive from it satisfaction and confidence in one’s heart. <....> S: Do you understand the "discourses, mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts" to be a summary of the "9 parts" referred to in other AN suttas, i.e. Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla. From the commentary to the Dhammasangani, the Atthasalini: "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla. "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta, Tuva.takasutta of the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the name of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta. "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In particular, all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya. "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as Veyyaakara.na, or exposition. "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as Gaathaa. "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy should be understood as Udaana. "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka.... "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka constitute the Jaataka. "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta. "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated attainment of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla, Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the nine parts." **** Metta Sarah ==== #131219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus for Ajahn Sujin nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 13-jun-2013, om 6:12 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > The idea that samatha or jhana can be reached to a certain degree > through contemplating the virtues of the Buddha is good to know. -------- The subject is too deep and only an ariyan can sucessfully develop these subjects of calm. Moreover, jhaana cannot be attained with these, only access concentration. See my comment to Han about Mahaanaama. ------- > R: I wonder if contemplation of metta which can sometimes be tied > to jhana is a similar sort of situation. ------ N: First of all mettaa has to be developed in daily life when we are with other people so that the characteristic of mettaa is clearly known, as different from attachment. For those who have skill for jhaana can attain jhaana with this subject, and then mettaa can be without limits, infinite. But should we aim for jhaana now? So many realities are appearing and we do not know their characteristics directly. Such as mettaa, how often do we take for mettaa what is selfish affection? Are we sure about the characeristic of mettaa as just a reality, not my mettaa? Ignorance and wrong view have been accumulated and are deeply rooted. We may not even notice that we take mettaa for my mettaa. Only pa~n~naa can know this. ------ Nina. #131220 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:00 pm Subject: Re: A being: To Rob E sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > The Buddha and the arahants (as well as knowledgeable disciples) can use such terms as satta, puggala, purisa, etc., without clinging to them, without mistaking them as a self. They even use the term attaa, attabhaava, and atta-patilaabha, as well as "aham" and "mama"--"I" and "mine"--without misapprehending them. See Potthapada Sutta, Digha Nikaya no. 9, section 440 in the Chattha Sangayana edition: Imaa kho citta, lokasama~n~naa lokaniruttiyo lokavohaaraa lokapa~n~nattiyo, yaahi tathaagato voharati aparaamasan"ti. "These, Citta, are worldly designations, worldly terms, worldly expressions, worldly descriptions with which the Tathagata expresses himself, without misunderstanding them."]] > >R: I would like to respond to the Venerable's good comments above. <.......>What is fictitious is that we mistake those aspects of that recognition that are merely conceptual for those which are actual. .... S: Yes. .... >But none of the above goes to show that there is no such thing as a body or that there is no physical universe, or that there is no repetitive aspects of the people we see that are recognizable, leading to the sense of "this person" or "that person." .... S: I think there is "no such thing as a body" and that this is an example of what is "merely conceptual" being taken "for those which are actual". Only visible object is ever seen, only hardness/softness, temperature and motion are ever touched. See my comments to Nina in another thread. ... > > Indeed, the monks of the Buddha's time did not accidentally mistake him for the local fishmonger or the local dice player. Everyone has distinguishing characteristics and these are not all imaginary, ... S: Instead of saying "everyone....", we can say every conditioned reality, every visible object, hardness and so on has "distinguishing characteristics". ... > R: ...though they are associated with all sorts of proliferations that are merely thoughts or imaginings. ... S: Yes, all sorts of proliferations and imaginings about a person with distinguishing characteristics. To be honest, I've forgotten whether I've already replied to this message, so will stop here:-)) Metta Sarah ===== #131221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion with A.Sujin, Kaeng Krachan 6.6.13 nilovg Dear Sarah. excellent, this really helps. Thank you. Acharn points to a yellow book, I very much like such practical explanation of realities. It makes it very lively. Nina. Op 13-jun-2013, om 8:03 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > With regard to your qus, A.Sujin pointed to a yellow book and > stressed that the 4 great primaries are not yellow, but appear as > yellow or a book. So in this way, the primary elements can > 'transfer' into many things like food or flowers. They 'transfer' > to diferent colours and shapes and forms all the time. In fact, > only hardness, softness and other rupas appear through the senses, > but the rupas with them make it seem as if there is a pattern, a > shape, a form. #131222 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:07 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... sarahprocter... Dear Tony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > However, in the smallest of nutshells, I would explain Nargajunas stance like this: > > Nothing exists independently and is therefore lacking any inherent existnce. .... S: What do you mean by "nothing"? Can you give some examples. ... >This is unrefutable and a relentless fact. Things do exist, but not in the way that they appear. ... S: What do you mean by "things"? .... >Their mode of existence is illusory. This is true for anything and everything that can be brought to the table...including that which you call Ultimate Realities. Nothing at all anywhere ever, escapes the logic of irreducability... ... S: Let's take the example of 'heat' as you include 'ultimate realities'. What does it mean to say "the mode of existence of heat is illusory"? Metta Sarah p.s. PLEASE add the name being addressed in a salutation, just 'Sarah' or 'Ken H' or 'All' is fine! ===== #131223 From: "azita" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:40 pm Subject: Nibbindati ( wsFwd: Re: Burning down the House gazita2002 Hallo Phil, Isn't this the most wonderful sutta, thank you for digging it out of UP's. Its marvelous that we are reminded time and agin on this group about seeing, hearing, the sense doors, thinking etc. Most fortunate to have such good friends to remind us of realities. Patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Group > > > Here is a useful post which clarifies the meaning of an expression which is misinterpreted by many people when suttas are read in translation without understanding. > > Phil > > > > > Thanks for quoting the Fire sermon, a favourite sutta. > > I thought you might like to hear a little about a key term in this > > sutta - nibbindati. > > In the translation it says " > > > Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones > > > disregards the eye and he disregards forms, and he disregards eye- > > > consciousness, and he disregards eye-contact, and the feeling that > > > arises from eye-contact - be it pleasant ore painful or neither > > > painful nor pleasant - that too he disregards. > > > > > __________ > > Nibbindati is translated here as 'disregards'. Bhikkhu bodhi in his > > translation has 'experiences revulsion'. Both of these terms are > > valid as literal meanings but it is good to know more about the > > context so that we can understand it better. > > In the sutta preceeding this (samyuttanikaya salayatanvagga 27(4) > > Full understanding) > > The Buddha says > > > > > > "Sabba bhikkhave, anabhijana aparijana avirajaya appajaha > > abhabbo dukkhakkhayaya. > > This is translated (relying On ven. bodhi's translation) as > > Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the > > all (sabba), without developing dispassion towards it and > > abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. > > > > Kica, bhikkhave, sabba ...? > > And what (kinca), bhikkhus is the all..? > > > > Yaca, bhikkhave cakkhu, ye ca rupa, yaca cakkhuviana, ye ca > > cakkhuviana aviatabba dhamma?epeats for other senses. > > > > The eye and forms and eyeconsciousness and things to be cognised by > > eyeconsciousness. > > > > there are many other suttas in these same section of the tipitaka > > explaining again and again how it is by fully understanding the eye > > and eye consciousness and visible object and the other senses that > > detachment grows and leads to nibbana. > > This is rather crucial as we might read the fire sermon and > > see "disregards eye and disregards form and he disregards > > eyeconsciousness .." to mean avoiding these contacts. Thus we might > > aim for some refined state of mind where we can't experience seeing, > > or think we should close our eyes to have insight. In fact the path > > is one of understanding all these contacts. This eventually leads to > > nibbindati because the true nature of seeing and form and eye is > > known (impermanent, dukkha and not-self) which naturally comes with > > profound detachement. > > When venerable Bodhi says "experiences revulsion" he gives a very > > literal translation of nibbindati but we should know that this > > really indicates a deep detachement with no aversion (and that only > > arises in association with pleasant or neutral feeling). > > robert > > > > > > > > In dhamma-list@y..., mary.reinard@b... wrote: > > > > The Fire Sermon > > > Translated from Pali as found in "The Selected Suttas" pamphlet > > > Chithurst Buddhist Monastery: #131224 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus for Ajahn Sujin philofillet Dear Nina, Rob E, all People who are interested in better understanding calm, that most misunderstood of dhammas, will find the very beginning of the January 8 morning session (Thailand 2013) very helpful, I think. I think we are better off understanding that there is calm with very kusala citta rather than hoping to make it arise intentionally by contemplating this subject or that subject. . Well, no news there. Phil #131225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus for Ajahn Sujin nilovg Dear Phil, Op 13-jun-2013, om 10:10 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I think we are better off understanding that there is calm with > very kusala citta rather than hoping to make it arise intentionally > by contemplating this subject or that subject. . > Well, no news there. ------ N: Yes, but it is the essence. It is good to realize how often there is an idea of my calm. Otherly useless. Then there is no calm, because the citta is akusala with wishing. Calm is just a dhamma that arises only when there are conditions. ------ Nina. #131226 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (12) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Do you understand the "discourses, mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts" to be a summary of the "9 parts" referred to in other AN suttas, i.e. Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla. From the commentary to the Dhammasangani, the Atthasalini: "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla. (1) "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta, Tuva.takasutta of the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the name of Sutta should be regarded asSutta. (2) "All the Suttas with verses should be understood asGeyya. In particular, all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya. (3) "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as Veyyaakara.na, or exposition. (4) "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as Gaathaa. (5) "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy should be understood as Udaana. (6) "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood asItivuttaka. (7) "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka constitute the Jaataka. (8) "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things in Ananda,' should be understood asAbbhuta. (9) "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated attainment of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla, Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood asVedalla. Such are the nine parts." -------------------- Han: Yes, I know them. But your detailed explanation is excellent. Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han #131227 From: "Tony H" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:50 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... tony.humphreys KH: ... a Theravada discussion. ... when we talk about dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality) we *are* following the Pali texts. T: It would be good if you could indicate which Pali sutta (s) you refer to? Now that would be extremely useful Ken! #131228 From: sprlrt@... Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:38 pm Subject: TA on beginning to understand sprlrt (Than Acharn, in Huahin, 7th, am-A, 1m) Q: Moments of hearing, smelling, tasting are moments of vipaka. TA: We don't know it from the very beginning, just learn to see that it's just a moment, reality, that's all. But when you read about whether it's vipaka or akusala citta, it's in order to see that no matter what moment it is, it's not self, and we don't have to select, or try to understand the difference between vipaka and kusala or akusala, first of all it's only a reality, that's all; before you can see the difference between levels of akusala and levels of understanding, and different stages of anything, it is, from the very beginning, just a reality, very temporary. The truth is so very deep in its details but right understanding develops little by little, from really understanding the beginning as beginning; no use to talk about the eightfold path now, without any understanding of whatever appears. Q: We start with an understanding of what dhammas are. TA: What appears now. Q: It's still not clear. TA: OK, what appears now? is there something appearing or nothing at all? just now, something, and you don't know that something, called as this or that, right? no one has to tell you that this is visible object or sound, no need to say anything, but there is a beginning of understanding that there is a reality, which is unknown, that its nature is unknown now, but by getting used, accustomed to the characteristic which appears, there can be the memory, with understanding or without understanding; usually without understanding - it is something, someone, like now; but when it has changed from someone, something right now into: just a reality - quite different; and (in spite of) what one has accumulated more, the idea of someone or something, one just begins to have a little accumulations of - just a reality, so it takes time, quite a long, long time, like when taking it for someone or something took time, quite a long, long time to know what is that; when a newly born baby sees, the baby does not know what is seen, but by getting used to the shape and form there is the idea of something, and now he's used to it as someone, but to understand that it's only a reality, very temporary, as a reality is, it begins to learn to understand; so it takes time, like newly born baby in Dhamma, in understanding, to really understand, and what we take for something, in reality is only very temporary appearance of a reality. No matter it's sound or sight, or whatever appears, so very short; what is left is only image, or sign, of the arising and falling away in succession, so one clings to that which has gone away - never come back, and makes believe that is there, all the time. #131229 From: "Tony H" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:44 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... Sarah/Ken (all) tony.humphreys --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: >Tony: Nothing exists independently and is therefore lacking any inherent existence. >Sarah: What do you mean by "nothing"? Can you give some examples. Hi Sarah, I love that question :))) brightened up my morning...I can't really give you an example of No(thing). In context I meant exactly what I wrote...'nothing' excluding nothing, leaving nothing out etc... :) >Tony: This is unrefutable and a relentless fact. Things do exist, but not in the way that they appear. >S: What do you mean by "things"? By 'things' I mean anything you care to choose. Anything at all...any appearance to your mind. That's all it is, an appearance. Not an appearance 'of something'....merely an appearance. >Tony: Their mode of existence is illusory. This is true for anything and everything that can be brought to the table...including that which you call Ultimate Realities. Nothing at all anywhere ever, escapes the logic of irreducibility... >Sarah: Let's take the example of 'heat' as you include 'ultimate realities'. What does it mean to say "the mode of existence of heat is illusory"? As for heat, cold etc, these "ultimate things," what kind of "ultimate things" are they? Piatigorsky, in his studies of the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka texts (The Buddhist Philosophy of Thought 1984) points out dharmas are not substances; they are not 'things' in and of themselves:- "We simply cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion." Would you agree with this statement?: Dhammas are "ultimate things" (not ultimate 'realities') only as a way of talking about aspects of the relational flow of experience, not in terms of describing static realities. In other words, dhammas are empty of self... >Sarah: PLEASE add the name being addressed in a salutation, just 'Sarah' or 'Ken H' or 'All' is fine! Thought I had done this...unless you mean in the Subject of the reply - if so apologies, I will in future. #131230 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:45 pm Subject: Re: rebirth and control truth_aerator Dear Sukin, all, >What you cite are conventional examples only. But silabbatamarasa or >clinging to rites and rituals being intimately tied to self-view, is >any > activity done with the idea that it is kusala and/or that it >leads to increased kusala or wisdom. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any sutta or VsM quotes? "for ox asceticism, ox vows, etc., (see M.i,387f.) are themselves kinds of clinging, too, because of the misinterpretation (insistence) that purification comes about in this way." -VsM XVII,241 Another [thinks] through rite-and-ritual clinging, 'This rite and ritual leads him who perfects it to perfect bliss in becoming in the fortunate states of the sense sphere or in the fine-material or immaterial kinds of becoming', and he performs kamma to achieve that. .. So rite-and-ritual clinging is a condition for all three, namely, the sense-desire, fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming with their analysis and their synthesis." - VsM XVII,267 Obviously this is not what meditation teachers teach. They teach how to stop becoming, not to become in heaven. >Although you are correct that lobha can't be avoided and that Stream >Entry comes first, to conclude however, that one must therefore be >driven by lobha to practice is wrong understanding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say "driven by". All I said is that one can't expect one to always be perfect and Arahant prior to practicing for stream-entry. Of course at the moment of sotopatti maggaphala, there is no lobha. But it could have arisen prior, perhaps long time ago. > >Lobha is lobha. Dhamma practice as object does not make the lobha > somehow good or less bad. If lobha can lead to Anagami, what ?>according to you, does panna lead to? >>>>>>>>>> Perfected panna leads to Arhatship. >Is right practice according to you, a conditioned dhamma? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is conditioned of course. Practicing good states conditions them to arise more often and stronger. > He who does not know what samatha is and what is vipassana, >>>>>>>>>>> So what? Read the suttas, vsm, listen to some teachers and practice it. You will never know a taste of something until you try it... >Can a Buddha will "seeing" to arise? Can an uninstructed worldling ?>will > ignorance to arise? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a person could will wisdom to arise, then one wouldn't need to practice. Why for? One could simply will wisdom to arise. One could simply will awakening to occur... With best wishes, Alex #131231 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:13 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... kenhowardau Hi Tony (and Thomas), ----- >>> KH: ... a Theravada discussion. ... when we talk about dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality) we *are* following the Pali texts. >> Thomas: It would be good if you could indicate which Pali sutta (s) you refer to? > Tony: Now that would be extremely useful Ken! ------- KH: I chose not to answer Thomas's question because I felt uneasy about it. I had already answered his previous questions about absolute realities in the suttas. I think (from memory) that I quoted the Sabba Sutta and the Loka Sutta which describe the All (the universe) as being conditioned dhammas (citta, cetasika and rupa). I also answered Thomas's question "was I making up my own Dhamma?" by saying "definitely not," and asking him in return was he making up *his* own Dhamma?" For example, when he practised vipassana meditation, was he making up that meditation, or was it taught somewhere in the Pali texts? There was no answer. There was just an eerie repetition of the original question. So I chose not to answer it. Ken H #131232 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:43 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 34 jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Ch. 4, `Understanding of the Present Moment' (cont'd): We should have no expectations as to the arising of kusala and pa~n~naa, that is attachment. When there is understanding that all cittas are conditioned it helps to have less clinging to realities as self. The Buddha taught us realities so that we can develop our own understanding instead of blindly following what he taught. When we were back in Bangkok we had for a whole day Dhamma discussions on a boat. A friend of Pinna had kindly offered us this boat trip and also the lunch that was included. We passed the Temple of Dawn (Wat Arun) and enjoyed the familiar view of the buildings and bridges, but now from a distance, from the waterside. After a delicious meal we climbed off the boat to have a walk and we looked at the dazzling colours of the shops. When we noticed all these colours we were thinking, thinking without words. Even when we do not think in words, the object of the citta can still be a concept. Some of the shops gave lively presentations of walking toy animals. This conditioned our imagination: there could be thinking of a whole story, of a real animal who was walking. Thinking was leading us away from reality. We were offered samples of herbal tea in small cups and it was explained that these herbs could cure all sorts of ailments. Acharn was also walking and then she stood still explaining for quite a while about realities appearing right now, she was never tired. Some of us had to take a smaller boat to return to the Peninsula Hotel. The captain of that boat looked with approval at what was written on the back of our shirts: "Do good and study the Dhamma". He had been a monk, even an abbot, for ten years and he spoke about meditation. I tried to explain about studying with awareness realities, no matter where one is. There is no need for a quiet place, the realities to be studied are within us and around us. This boat was noisy, not quiet, but we could still discuss Dhamma, discuss about visible object appearing through the eyes, sound appearing through the ears, many realities. It was a good ending of the day. ******* (End Chapter 4) (To be continued) #131233 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:56 pm Subject: Re: A Message on Nagarjuna to Ken & Tony upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > ---- > <. . .> > > > KH: You have been posting those quotes on a regular basis for the past ten years or so, Howard. You make no comment when people explain how they do in fact fit *perfectly* into the teaching of conditioned absolute realities. You just post them again. What more can I say? > >> > > HCW: I don't recall alternate understandings of these, Ken. > ---- > > KH: Allow me to jog your memory. > > Taking them in the order you have given them, the first was: > > >> H: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > > "When hearing... > > "When sensing... > > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] > cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an > [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ >> > > KH: Surely you can remember posting that on many, many occasions at DSG, ---------------------------- HCW: Yes. ------------------------------ and being given alternate understandings of it. (?) ----------------------------- HCW: No. ---------------------------- > > On the occasion before this one, you wrote to Jon: "But the Buddha taught in AN 4.24 that "When knowing-through-any-sense-door what is to be known, he doesn't construe a known. <. . .>" < message #130320> > > As you explained in 130839 your point was >>"I believe that he is saying that among any of the things that might be known by him, he doesn't presume there to be self-existent entities that are known, > <. . .>." >> > > Connie was the first to respond on that occasion with what Sarah referred to as the "Helpful notes, Pali and comments in your mini-series. Thank you." > > Here is just one brief extract from an extensive explanation given in Connie's #130824: "Ta.m tathaagato na upa.t.thaasi. Mp: "The Tathaagata did not become subservient to any object at the six sense doors, that is, he did not take it up na upaga~nchi) through craving or views. For it is said: 'The Blessed One sees a form with the eye, but he has no desire and lust for it; the Blessed One is fully liberated in mind ... The Blessed One cognizes a phenomenon with the mind, but he has no desire and lust for it; the Blessed One cognizes a phenomenon with the mind, but he has no desire and lust for it; the Blessed One is fully liberated in mind' (see SN 35:232; IV 164-65). By this the plane of arahantship (khii.naasavabhuumi) is indicated."" --------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I recall. I reject this interpratation as strained to say the least. I didn't respond so, however, out of respect for the view of others. ------------------------------- > > ----------- > > KH: Your next quote was: > > >> /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick " this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ > > >> (From the Phena Sutta) > > KH: You have quoted that one so many times on DSG it could be called the Howard Sutta. :-) ------------------------------ HCW: As you will! LOL! ------------------------------- > > On one occasion Rob M replied to you with a quote from Bodhi B which read in part: "In the context of early Buddhist thought these similes have to be handled with care. They are not intended to suggest an illusionist view of the world but to show that our conceptions of the world, and of our own existence, are largely distorted by the process of cognition. Just as the mirage and the magical illusion are based on real existents - the sand of the desert, the magician's appurtenances - so these false conceptions arise from a base that objectively exists, namely the five aggregates; but when seen through a mind subject to conceptual distortion, the aggregates appear in a way that deviates from their actual nature. Instead of being seen as > transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and self." ----------------------------- HCW: Yes, so? Indeed tyhey are insubstantial, i.e., wthout substance. ----------------------------- > > KH: Just one brief part of a reply from Sarah reads: "Spk: As a plaintain trunk (kadalikkhandha) is an assemblage of many sheaths, each with its own characteristic, so the aggregate of volitional formations is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic." -------------------------- HCW: a plantain trunk is coreless! --------------------------- > > KH: Mostly, the explanations have centred on "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 224. In detail [that is, individually] matter should be regarded as a > lump of froth because it will not stand squeezing, feeling as a bubble > on water because it can only be enjoyed for an instant, perception as a > mirage because it causes illusion, formations as a plantain trunk > because it has no core, and consciousness as a conjuring trick because > it deceives (S.iii,140-42). > > KH: I am not saying all of the many DSG explanations of the Phena Sutta have been given directly in response to posts from you, but I suspect the majority of them have been. ----------------------------- HCW: Ah, you suspect! BTW, I requested YOUR interpretations, but I haven't seen them. ---------------------------- > > ----------- > > KH: The next quote was: > > >> /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none " such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ > >> > >>(From the Uraga Sutta) > > KH: A message from good old Dan 9835 reads in part: > > "Nyanaponika wrote a little about his translation in an essay > entitled "The Worn-out Skin" [I believe it is a "Wheel" or "Bodhi > Leaves" publication through BPS, a selection of which are compiled > into a book called "Vision of Dhamma"]. I quote: > > "The world is 'unreal' in the sense of presenting a deceptive > appearance, being quite different in actuality from the way it > appears to a greedy, lustful, hating, and ignorant mind. The Pali > word 'vitatha', here rendered by 'unreal,' has both in Pali and > Sanskrit the meaning of 'untrue' or 'false.' [The CSCD dictionary > agrees precisely]. These verses, however, are not meant to convey the > idea that the world is mere illusion, a play of the imagination. What > underlies its deceptive appearance, the flux of mental and physical > processes, is real enough in the sense that it is effect-producing. > The unreality lies in what we attribute to the world, and not in the > world itself. ------------------------------ HCW: I have no problem with that. ---------------------------- > > ------- > > KH: And lastly you quoted: > > >> /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ > >> > >>(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) > > KH: In an extensive reply to your #108192 Sarah (in 113152) quoted Ken O's reply: > >> KO: lets look at the sutta closely. <> This is real is refering to self conceit taking not-self as self. Then it start to imagine this self is real. So that is why the subsequent statement, < ----------------------------- HCW: I see no basis for this. He does. So be it. --------------------------- > >> > > S: Yes, on and on in samsara, we take what is not-self for self, what is suffering for pleasurable and what is impermanent for permanent. Obscured by ignorance and blinded by wrong view, we fail to see the Truth that only a Buddha can reveal. > > ----------- > > KH: So, Howard, I hope that has jogged your memory. Do you now recall some of the alternate understandings that have been given to your quotes? ----------------------------- HCW: Ah, Ken, I have now seen the light!!! ----------------------------- > > Ken H > =============================== With metta, Howard /The most fundamental aspect of the imperfection of conditioned phenomena is their illusoriness. The distortion of ignorance creates the appearance of separate, self-existent entities with own being and own nature, hiding the seamless, perfect, unconditioned nature of reality, and imposing upon it the deluded, fragmented view of an appearance realm of separate things to be grasped at, run after, and run from. Samsara is nibbana misperceived/ (Howard's Take: Mea Culpa) #131234 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth and control sukinderpal Hi Alex, > > >What you cite are conventional examples only. But silabbatamarasa or > >clinging to rites and rituals being intimately tied to self-view, is > >any > activity done with the idea that it is kusala and/or that it > >leads to increased kusala or wisdom. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Do you have any sutta or VsM quotes? > > "for ox asceticism, ox vows, etc., (see M.i,387f.) are themselves > kinds of clinging, too, because of the misinterpretation (insistence) > that purification comes about in this way." -VsM XVII,241 > I don't have any quotes. But perhaps you can tell me what exactly is wrong with these activities which you cite and what is at the root of the problem of silabbataparamasa? > Another [thinks] through rite-and-ritual clinging, 'This rite and > ritual leads him who perfects it to perfect bliss in becoming in the > fortunate states of the sense sphere or in the fine-material or > immaterial kinds of becoming', and he performs kamma to achieve that. > .. So rite-and-ritual clinging is a condition for all three, namely, > the sense-desire, fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming with > their analysis and their synthesis." - VsM XVII,267 > > Obviously this is not what meditation teachers teach. They teach how > to stop becoming, not to become in heaven. > You think that only the examples mentioned in the Visuddhimagga constitute rites and rituals? How is taking up a practice aimed at the idea of "stop becoming" different from that of "going to heaven"? And what is "stop becoming" exactly? > >Although you are correct that lobha can't be avoided and that Stream > >Entry comes first, to conclude however, that one must therefore be > >driven by lobha to practice is wrong understanding. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > I didn't say "driven by". All I said is that one can't expect one to > always be perfect and Arahant prior to practicing for stream-entry. > OK, you didn't refer to lobha here. But does this mean that you agree that lobha is not the Path? And if you were not referring to lobha, what were you trying to convey when suggesting that "one can't expect one to always be perfect and Arahant prior to practicing for stream-entry". > Of course at the moment of sotopatti maggaphala, there is no lobha. > But it could have arisen prior, perhaps long time ago. > Are you referring to the lobha accompanying wrong view or without wrong view as well? But see, you are not being clear. You say here that lobha does not accompany enlightenment, but you do not say whether it is necessary prior to that. > > >Lobha is lobha. Dhamma practice as object does not make the lobha > > somehow good or less bad. If lobha can lead to Anagami, what > ?>according to you, does panna lead to? > >>>>>>>>>> > > Perfected panna leads to Arhatship. > It would be better if you just gave a straight response. How does lobha lead to Anagami? Are both lobha and panna part of the Path? > > >Is right practice according to you, a conditioned dhamma? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > It is conditioned of course. Practicing good states conditions them > to arise more often and stronger. > You mean practice is a conditioned dhamma and that with each arising, panna accumulates? I don't think you really mean this do you, but your practice in fact refers to meditation? > > > He who does not know what samatha is and what is vipassana, > >>>>>>>>>>> > > So what? Read the suttas, vsm, listen to some teachers and practice > it. You will never know a taste of something until you try it... > You mean reading the Suttas and following a practice conceived of, is as simple as following the thought suggestion to dip one's finger into honey and licking it, hence coming to know its taste? You really underestimate the profundity of the Dhamma Alex. > >Can a Buddha will "seeing" to arise? Can an uninstructed worldling > ?>will > ignorance to arise? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > If a person could will wisdom to arise, then one wouldn't need to > practice. Why for? One could simply will wisdom to arise. One could > simply will awakening to occur... > A straight answer to my question would be more revealing of what your views are. Metta, Sukin #131235 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:12 am Subject: Clarification Re: A Message on Nagarjuna to Ken & Tony/Sarah upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken & Tony(and Sarah!) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > KH: Just one brief part of a reply from Sarah reads: "Spk: As a plaintain trunk (kadalikkhandha) is an assemblage of many sheaths, each with its own characteristic, so the aggregate of volitional formations is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic." -------------------------- HCW: a plantain trunk is coreless! ================================ I should clarify: Indeed Sarah is correct about the layers. But, like an onion skin, layer by layer as one goes inwards, there is ultimately found a hollowness. With metta, Howard Insubstantiality of All Dhammas /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #131236 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:13 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... moellerdieter Hi Howard , ( all) D: yes, Theravada uses the term only for those on the path to the Samma Sambuddhadasa , who is 'Setting in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma'. > The idea of superiority is obviously due to that ' Mahāyāna tradition holds that pursuing only the release from suffering and attainment of Nirvāṇa is too narrow an aspiration, because it lacks the motivation of actively resolving to liberate all other sentient beings from samsara. One who engages in this path is called a bodhisattva' ------------------------ HCW: The oddness of this perspective, it seems to me, is that it appears to presume that the compassion of arahants is lacking in some fashion, which I consider silly. D: a triple Satu ! ;-) HCW: (There are also in Mahayana the "Celestial Bodhsattvas/Buddhas" (if I have the name right)who are much like gods in the theistic sense and are often treated as beyond "ordinary buddhas". (Tony, please correct me if I am wrong on this!) And, to confuse matters further, sometimes some Zen folks use 'buddha' much as 'arahant' is used in the Pali suttas. D: probably there is a common understanding about the Universal Buddha (sammā-sambuddha) , the next : Maitreyya.. (Buddh.Dict.) Neither in the canonical texts nor in the old commentaries is it stated that a follower of the Buddha may choose between the three kinds of enlightenment and aspire either to become a Buddha, a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahat-disciple. This conception of a choice between three aspirations is, however, frequently found in present-day Theravāda countries, e.g. in Sri Lanka. As you know, there are a number of suttas refering to a pantheon which I believe are allegories to describe different states of consciousness and if I recall sources correctly the Jhanas allow a glimpse.. I think it would be rather odd to assume that our world, our civilisation represent the highest development after close to 14 billion years sine BB, but instead of celestial beings , people may refer to aliens nowadays.. . HCW: I don't see *any* connection between the emptiness element of Mahayana and its Bodhisattva Ideal. > ----------------------------- > > D: I am not sure whether such view influenced as well the Abhidhamma version of Mahayana. ----------------------------- HCW: I wasn't aware that there IS a "Mahayana Abhidhamma." ----------------------------- D: right , there is not the Mahayana Abhidhamma besides Theravada Abhidhamma ( Sarvastivada Abhidhamma, East Asian and Tibetan Abhidhamma and Abhidhamma Kosa..) > > > B.T.W. I stumbled recently upon a DSG discussion (topic : sabbe dhamma anatta from November 02 , in which you too participated) , inspired by > the present proposition of unconditioned dhammas ( still waiting for any canonical evidence) ------------------------- HCW: ??? I don't recall. -------------------------- D:hence time to meet good old Howard 11 years ago ;-) I wonder sometimes why it is so difficult to accept the Law of Dependent Origination as a/the middle Way of to be and not to be . with Metta Dieter P.S. Adding to the wellkown: to be or not to be.-- Shakespeare To do is to be.-- Nietzsche To be is to do.-- Sartre no being-no doing --DSG Dobe -dobe do.-- Frank Sinatra to be cxontinued ;-) #131237 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth and control truth_aerator Dear Sukin, all, >I don't have any quotes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then, it is your opinion on what silabattaparamasa is. >But perhaps you can tell me what exactly is wrong with these >activities which you cite and what is at the root of >the problem of silabbataparamasa? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A) Ox-duty and dog duty ascetism B) practicing rites-and-rituals with the hope of attaining heavenly rebirths. None of these apply to what modern and well known meditation teachers teach. >You think that only the examples mentioned in the Visuddhimagga >constitute rites and rituals? >>>>>>>>> In principle, yes. >How is taking up a practice aimed at the idea of "stop becoming" >?>different from that of "going to heaven"? And what is "stop becoming" >exactly? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> N8P is to stop becoming, but it isn't merely to go to heaven. >OK, you didn't refer to lobha here. But does this mean that you agree >that lobha is not the Path? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If I understand correctly, then at maggaphala moment there is no lobha. But lobha (for rupa/arupa, Nibbana) can be present even for Anagamin. Lets reach this stage and then worry about this lobha. >Are you referring to the lobha accompanying wrong view or without >wrong view as well? >>>>>>>>>>> Of course the lobha that I talk about is without wrong view (which wouldn't allow stream entry to occur). >But see, you are not being clear. I was. >You say here that lobha does not accompany enlightenment, but you do >not say whether it is necessary prior to that. >>>>>>>>> As Bhikkhuni sutta suggests, lobha can be used to set one on the path. >It would be better if you just gave a straight response. How does >lobha lead to Anagami? Are both lobha and panna part of the Path? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lobha, conceit, etc could motivate one "the other person is Awakened. I want to be Awakened as well. Why him and not me?!" and then one would practice through which one will abandon the fetters and become Awakened. I also think that fear of samsara could be used in similar fashion. Of course it goes without saying that one would abandon unwholesome tendencies at appropriate times. >You mean practice is a conditioned dhamma and that with each arising, >panna accumulates? >>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior of the mind changes (less akusala more kusala) with practice. >but your practice in fact refers to meditation? As conventional word, yes. Samatha, vipassana, satipatthana... > You really underestimate the profundity of the Dhamma Alex. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dhamma is not about getting PhD in ancient Indian philosophy. It is about learning skill not to experience Dukkha. >A straight answer to my question would be more revealing of what your >views are. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mind practices kusala until this skill becomes strong enough that akusala doesn't arise. With best wishes, Alex #131238 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:27 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 34 moellerdieter Dear Nina, thanks for sharing your impressions during the last trip to Thailand, which I enjoy reading. However I stumbled upon " I tried to explain about studying with awareness realities, no matter where one is. There is no need for a quiet place, the realities to be studied are within us and around us." The emphasis of benefit of seclusion or a quiet place can be traced to numberless suttas . Wellknown is especially the address to householders : A.N. 5.176 PTS: A iii 206 , Piti Sutta: Rapture translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu 2000-2013 Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself." When this was said, Ven. Sariputta said to the Blessed One, "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how well put that was by the Blessed One: 'Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, "We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick." So you should train yourself, "Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture." That's how you should train yourself.' "Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time." [The Blessed One said:] "Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time." unquote with Metta Dieter #131239 From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:05 am Subject: Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (16) hantun1 Dear Friends, [Selected Suttas from An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi] 125. Scholars and Meditators [AN 6.46 Mahaacunda Sutta] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahaacunda was dwelling at Sahaajaati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus: "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma (dhammayogaa bhikkhuu) and they disparage (apasaadenti) those monks who are meditators (jhaayii bhikkhuu), saying: 'Look at those monks! They think, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate to and meditate fro, meditate up and meditate down! What then, do they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying: 'Look at those monks! They think, "We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." with metta, Han #131240 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:08 am Subject: Countless countables... philofillet Dear Group I heard Ajahn talking about calm, is there calm when seeing? No, of course not with the flash of seeing, and then there is almost inevitably ignorance and lobha in respose to what is seen. Moment by moment by moment through samsara, each moment of seeing arisen and fallen away, never to arise again. And so for the akusala response moments. "Countless seeing, countless ignorance." When teaching grammar we have countable and uncountable nouns, and the dhammas that are seeing and ignorance are countable nouns, really. But don't try to count them, ok? (I can imagine a modern teacher at a retreat promising sotapatthana to yogis who are able to count moments of seeing for ten straight days. _(^o^)^) Phil #131241 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus for Ajahn Sujin philofillet Hi Nina > ------ > N: Yes, but it is the essence. It is good to realize how often there > is an idea of my calm. Otherly useless. Then there is no calm, > because the citta is akusala with wishing. Calm is just a dhamma that > arises only when there are conditions. For people like me who do yoga using the breath, It is easy to create very blissful mental moods through the breath quickly and effectively in a guaranteed way. It is very easy for me to understand why modern teachers can get people excited about jhanas Because it really is easy to gain blissful states by using the breath and the energies in the body which are called ki in Japanese and some other word in Indian language, I think prana? So I sympathize with people who are fooled by modern meditation teachers. And I can sympathize with the meditation teachers as well. They just don't understand or it hasn't clicked with them yet that this is all about lobha, greed for pleasant mental moods, and that there is ditthi with the lobha, a belief in the ability to cause dhammas to arise. "Meditation" feels fantastic! And it *does* condition a healthy ability to "stay calm" in stressful situations, but that is not the calm of Dhamma, which is what we are interested in here. Phil #131242 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:24 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 "Ken H" wrote: ----- >>KH: ... a Theravada discussion. ... when we talk about dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality) we *are* following the Pali texts. >>Thomas: It would be good if you could indicate which Pali sutta (s) you refer to? >>Tony: Now that would be extremely useful Ken! ------ > KH: I chose not to answer Thomas's question because I felt uneasy about it.I had already answered his previous questions about absolute realities in the suttas. Thomas: I really do not think you had, and are able to find any Pali suttas suitably and sufficiently to support your Dhammas. ------- Thomas #131243 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:50 am Subject: Re: A Message on Nagarjuna to Ken & Tony kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Surely you can remember posting that on many, many occasions at DSG, >> > HCW: Yes. > >> KH: and being given alternate understandings of it. (?) >> > HCW: No. > <. . .> > HCW: Yes, I recall. I reject this interpratation as strained to say the least. I didn't respond so, however, out of respect for the view of others. ---- KH: That's fine, that's all I was asking. Next time you quote that sutta I would just like you to recall that there are alternative ways of understanding it alternative ways that have been explained many times, at length, on DSG. ----- <. . .> >> KH: . . . quote from Bodhi B ". . .so these false conceptions arise from a base that objectively exists, namely the five aggregates; but when seen through a mind subject to conceptual distortion, the aggregates appear in a way that deviates from their actual nature. Instead of being seen as transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and self." >> > HCW: Yes, so? Indeed they are insubstantial, i.e., without substance. ---- KH: No, you can't get out of it that easily. :-) The whole point of Ven Bodhi's quote is that the false conceptions arise from a base that *objectively exists.* Namely the five aggregates - conditioned namas and rupas - *objectively exist.* That is the opposite of what you are saying. As for the your word "insubstantial" the quote does not support your interpretation of it as "without own being." Ven Bodhi writes, "Instead of being seen as transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and self." So BB is saying instead of being seen as anicca and anatta, they appear as nicca and atta. Ven Bodhi is not certainly saying, "Instead of being seen as ultimately unreal and lacking their own being, they appear as ultimately real and in possessing their own being." ------------ <. . .> >> HCW: a plantain trunk is coreless! ------------ KH: Yes and that simile can be understood in one of two ways. It can be understood to mean dhammas lack own-being (the Mahayana way) or it can be understood to mean dhammas lack a lasting soul, or anything pertaining to a lasting soul (the Theravada). ------------------- <. . .> > H: BTW, I requested YOUR interpretations, but I haven't seen them. ------------------- KH: Maybe I didn't on this occasion, but I think you know my opinions on all the basic questions. You also asked: ------- >>> BTW, what do you *mean* by an "absolute conditioned reality"? The term sounds self-contradictory to me. ------- KH: "Conditioned" and "absolutely real" are not antonyms. There are conditioned absolutely real phenomena, and there is an unconditioned absolutely real phenomenon. I might remind you that (according to the texts) both types of absolutely real phenomena are anatta. In your view that would mean even the unconditioned nibbana lacked own being. How would you explain that? Ken H #131244 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:08 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... kenhowardau Hi Thomas, --- <. . .> >> KH: I had already answered his previous questions about absolute realities in the suttas. >> > Thomas: I really do not think you had, and are able to find any Pali suttas suitably and sufficiently to support your Dhammas. --- KH: I have done my best. But believe me, Thomas, there is nothing I could have said that would change your mind. You are firmly convinced that the Buddha's Dhamma is a set of instructions for the practice of religious rites and rituals. I can't compete with that. All I can do at DSG is discuss the Dhamma that the Buddha actually taught. He taught a here-and-now Dhamma. He did not teach a set of instructions designed to enable permanent beings to attain exalted states in the future. But I can't convince you of that. Ken H #131245 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:33 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tony & all) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Howard , ( all) > > > > D: yes, Theravada uses the term only for those on the path to the Samma Sambuddhadasa , who is 'Setting in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma'. > > The idea of superiority is obviously due to that ' Mahāyāna tradition holds that pursuing only the release from suffering and attainment of Nirvāṇa is too narrow an aspiration, because it lacks the motivation of actively resolving to liberate all other sentient beings from samsara. One who engages in this path is called a bodhisattva' > ------------------------ > HCW: > The oddness of this perspective, it seems to me, is that it appears to presume that the compassion of arahants is lacking in some fashion, which I consider silly. > > D: a triple Satu ! ;-) ----------------------------- HCW: Thanks. :) ----------------------------- > > > HCW: (There are also in Mahayana the "Celestial Bodhsattvas/Buddhas" (if I have the name right)who are much like gods in the theistic sense and are often treated as beyond "ordinary buddhas". (Tony, please correct me if I am wrong on this!) > And, to confuse matters further, sometimes some Zen folks use 'buddha' much as 'arahant' is used in the Pali suttas. > > D: probably there is a common understanding about the Universal Buddha (sammā-sambuddha) , the next : Maitreyya.. ----------------------------- HCW: Yes, in common. ------------------------------ > > (Buddh.Dict.) Neither in the canonical texts nor in the old commentaries is it stated that a follower of the Buddha may choose between the three kinds of enlightenment and aspire either to become a Buddha, a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahat-disciple. This conception of a choice between three aspirations is, however, frequently found in present-day Theravāda countries, e.g. in Sri Lanka. > > As you know, there are a number of suttas refering to a pantheon which I believe are allegories to describe different states of consciousness and if I recall sources correctly the Jhanas allow a glimpse.. ---------------------------- HCW: Yes. --------------------------- > I think it would be rather odd to assume that our world, our civilisation represent the highest development after close to 14 billion years sine BB, but instead of celestial beings , people may refer to aliens nowadays.. . ----------------------------- HCW: But the "Celestial Bodhisattvas/Buddhas" are something else. (Tony, help?) ------------------------------ > > HCW: I don't see *any* connection between the emptiness element of Mahayana and its Bodhisattva Ideal. > > ----------------------------- > > > > D: I am not sure whether such view influenced as well the Abhidhamma version of Mahayana. > ----------------------------- > HCW: > I wasn't aware that there IS a "Mahayana Abhidhamma." > ----------------------------- > > D: right , there is not the Mahayana Abhidhamma besides Theravada Abhidhamma ( Sarvastivada Abhidhamma, East Asian and Tibetan Abhidhamma and Abhidhamma Kosa..) > > > > > > > > B.T.W. I stumbled recently upon a DSG discussion (topic : sabbe dhamma anatta from November 02 , in which you too participated) , inspired by > > the present proposition of unconditioned dhammas ( still waiting for any canonical evidence) > ------------------------- > HCW: > ??? I don't recall. > -------------------------- > > D:hence time to meet good old Howard 11 years ago ;-) -------------------------------- HCW: Someone else! ;-) ------------------------------- > > I wonder sometimes why it is so difficult to accept the Law of Dependent Origination as a/the middle Way of to be and not to be . ------------------------------- HCW: It is deep and subtle. ------------------------------ > > > with Metta Dieter > > P.S. > Adding to the wellkown: > to be or not to be.-- Shakespeare > To do is to be.-- Nietzsche > To be is to do.-- Sartre > no being-no doing --DSG > Dobe -dobe do.-- Frank Sinatra > > to be cxontinued ;-) --------------------------- HCW: An "oldy but goody". ;-) ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #131246 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:59 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > --- > <. . .> > >> KH: I had already answered his previous questions about absolute realities in the suttas. > >> > > > Thomas: I really do not think you had, and are able to find any Pali suttas suitably and sufficiently to support your Dhammas. > --- > > KH: I have done my best. But believe me, Thomas, there is nothing I could have said that would change your mind. > > You are firmly convinced that the Buddha's Dhamma is a set of instructions for the practice of religious rites and rituals. I can't compete with that. Thomas: Did I say that??? --------- > > All I can do at DSG is discuss the Dhamma that the Buddha actually taught. He taught a here-and-now Dhamma. He did not teach a set of instructions designed to enable permanent beings to attain exalted states in the future. > > But I can't convince you of that. Thomas: ??? ------- Thomas #131247 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 34 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 13-jun-2013, om 20:27 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > However I stumbled upon " I tried to explain about studying with > awareness realities, no matter where one is. There is no need for a > quiet place, the realities to be studied are within us and around us." > > The emphasis of benefit of seclusion or a quiet place can be traced > to numberless suttas . > > Wellknown is especially the address to householders : A.N. 5.176 > PTS: A iii 206 ,... "Householder, you have provided the community > of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites > for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We > have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, > lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train > yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & > rapture.' That's how you should train yourself." > -------- N: But it is not a rule for everybody, it depends on accumulated inclinations. Thus, no self who thinks, I must first be calm before understanding can be developed. Then there is lobha creeping in again. In your other post you said also: No rule and there should not be a self who is wishing for calm or trying to have it. By the way, in sutta translations I notice that right thought, sammaa vayaama is often translated as right intention. Intention is cetanaa. But it is not a factor of the eightfold Path. ------ Your sutta quote: "Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time." ----- N: Again, if someone is able to cultivate jhaana it is right and no misunderstandings at the time of the Buddha. But nowadays? ------ Nina. #131248 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (16) nilovg Dear Han, thank you for the sutta. Op 13-jun-2013, om 22:05 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > 125. Scholars and Meditators [AN 6.46 Mahaacunda Sutta] > > Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahaacunda was > dwelling at Sahaajaati among the Ceti people. There he addressed > the monks thus: > > "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma (dhammayogaa > bhikkhuu) and they disparage (apasaadenti) those monks who are > meditators (jhaayii bhikkhuu), > ------- N: Here we learn that one should not have conceit and disparage those who have different inclinations, to jhaana or to dhammayogaa. And even those who are inclined to jhaana should be aware and understand it as non-self. Whatever one is inclined to, whichever cittas arise, they are just conditioned dhammas. We cannot know the cittas of others, there can only be awareness of 'our own' citta at the present moment. ---- Nina. #131249 From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (16) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much, once again, for your very useful comments. with metta and respect, Han From: Nina van Gorkom vangorko@... Dear Han, thank you for the sutta. N: Here we learn that one should not have conceit and disparage those who have different inclinations, to jhaana or to dhammayogaa. And even those who are inclined to jhaana should be aware and understand it as non-self. Whatever one is inclined to, whichever cittas arise, they are just conditioned dhammas. We cannot know the cittas of others, there can only be awareness of 'our own' citta at the present moment. ---- Nina. #131250 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:51 pm Subject: Re: the four right efforts, transcript. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (Nina, Tam & all), It's an interesting topic, so here's a longer transcript of the discussion. Note that Ann raises the same point as you. [It can be found at the very start of 2013 01 10 pm session in Hua Hin, Thailand] **** Sarah: Yesterday morning you were briefly mentioning the 4 sammapadanas, the 4 right efforts, which are as I recall, avoiding evil not yet arisen, overcoming evil (arisen), developing wholesomeness not yet arisen, and maintaining wholesomeness, and I think at the end, you said, just in brief "Avoiding evil, doing good - this is the Buddha's Teaching" and you were going to say something more.... A.Sujin: Because I think it sounds like theory - 1,2,3,4, but actually it's not like that. One can see that there are many points of viriya (effort). For example, when there are many moments of akusala - so viriya is with each moment. Is there any moment of viriya which occurs to mind about 'from now on, I will not have any more of it?' Even thinking - we all know that there are many moments of accumulation of akusala from time to time in one's life, but from hearing the Teachings, can there be moments of thinking about 'I'll not have more akusala as before?' S: Yes. AS: And that is the beginning of avoiding having akusala which hasn't been conditioned to arise yet. S: Just wise consideration of the harm of akusala. AS: Yes, yes, otherwise in a day one never thinks about the accumulation of akusala at all, but when one can see how much it's accumulated in a day, there can be moments of thinking 'from now on, let's have less akusala moments.' Even that can condition moment of kusala instead of akusala. Ann: It sounds a bit like 'I'm trying'. AS: it sounds like, but it's viriya, not "I". Viriaya changes from viriya of akusala into beginning to develop kusala. Otherwise it keeps on having akusala, but even such an idea is conditioned by viriya of sammapadana, the beginning of having more kusala. S: With understanding. AS: With understanding. A: With understanding, it's not an attempt to control. OK. It's very difficult to tell the difference. AS: It's not "I", so it depends on conditions for that moment. Nina: But it's thinking. Will this really help? AS: Yes. It's thinking because there's thinking all the time, but thinking about akusala in many, many aspects, this and that, but when it's thinking about kusala, it can be thinking of not having akusala. S: So also at that moment, because there is understanding, so it's pariyatti. AS: Yes. For example, right now there are moments of understanding reality and then when such understanding arises, there can be conditions for understanding seeing or anything or akusala which arises. Who knows what is conditioned, but when whatever appears, there can be viriya developed from thinking to the moment of understanding. to be contd. ***** Metta Sarah ===== #131251 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:49 pm Subject: Re: TA on beginning to understand philofillet Dear group First of all thank you Alberto for posting the transcript. > Q: We start with an understanding of what dhammas are. > > TA: What appears now. > > Q: It's still not clear. > > TA: OK, what appears now? is there something appearing or nothing at all? just now, something, and you don't know that something, called as this or that, right? no one has to tell you that this is visible object or sound, no need to say anything, but there is a beginning of understanding that there is a reality, which is unknown, that its nature is unknown now, but by getting used, accustomed to the characteristic which appears, Ph: My feeling is that sometimes Ajahn says something like this and at other times she might say that a dhamma is to be understood in theory and that only panna that has developed will begin to understand it. And although she wouldn't say panna cannot understand it for us now there is a hint that that is the case. For example in the talk that I referred to recently she sort of says this about calm. That we can understand that after seeing there is very likely to be defilements arising so very unlikely for there to be calm but to know the characteristic of calm only panna that has developed will know that. But it seems to me that she encourages us to reflect on seeing and visible object and that these are dhammas that by spending time with so to speak and getting to know the characteristics is more likely to develop. No rules I know. And I doubt that anybody who has the conditions to listen to Ajahn a lot will make the mistake of trying to see visible object. I would say that the characteristic of calm for example is much less likely to appear then the characteristic of visible object. Yes yes, no rules, no rules.... Phil #131252 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:02 pm Subject: Re: TA on beginning to understand philofillet Hi again. I will just add that what she says about the way the understanding of dhammas must develop gradually and naturally goes for all dhammas. There can never be trying to understand the characteristics of realities, plain and simple. Understanding must develop gradually or not at all. On the other hand there will be trying to understand what we read about the characteristics of realities. That kind of trying is part of a natural process. But gradually getting familiar with the characteristics of that reality must be without trying. It's a long long long long long long long long long long long long process. Don't worry I didn't type that out. I used Siri my voice transcription device. She won't transcribe dhammas, though. Here are some examples of the way she transcribes "dhamma." Dominic Dominic Domino Domino Madonna Madonna Madonna Madonna Madonna. ,, Dumb and dumber Phil ,,,, #131253 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth and control sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >I don't have any quotes. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Then, it is your opinion on what silabattaparamasa is. > You mean if I quote, it becomes the Buddha's and therefore more authoritative? What if I do quote, but like you, give a wrong interpretation? But of course my understanding of silabbataparamasa has come from hearing people quite knowledgeable in the Pali canon. > >But perhaps you can tell me what exactly is wrong with these > >activities which you cite and what is at the root of > >the problem of silabbataparamasa? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A) Ox-duty and dog duty ascetism > B) practicing rites-and-rituals with the hope of attaining heavenly > rebirths. > > None of these apply to what modern and well known meditation teachers > teach. > What about sun worshiping, do these apply to it? > >You think that only the examples mentioned in the Visuddhimagga > >constitute rites and rituals? > >>>>>>>>> > > In principle, yes. > So sun worship, Sufi dancing, bathing in the Ganges, prostrating in the direction of Mecca, singing songs of love to God, sitting in a quiet place at 5 in the morning to read the suttas believing that panna is more likely to arise then, these are not the stuff of rite and rituals because the Visuddhimagga does not list them? > >How is taking up a practice aimed at the idea of "stop becoming" > >?>different from that of "going to heaven"? And what is "stop > becoming" >exactly? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > N8P is to stop becoming, but it isn't merely to go to heaven. > Meditation, doing it with the intention to "stop becoming" is rooted in attachment and self-view no different from the intention to follow some practice with the aim of going to heaven. Both fail to understand that the Noble Eightfold Path is a conditioned citta with accompanying mental factors which arises by conditions beyond control regardless of the conventional activity. > >OK, you didn't refer to lobha here. But does this mean that you agree > >that lobha is not the Path? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > If I understand correctly, then at maggaphala moment there is no > lobha. But lobha (for rupa/arupa, Nibbana) can be present even for > Anagamin. Lets reach this stage and then worry about this lobha. > So you are saying that since an Anagami still has lobha, why we need to be concerned about it. Well, one, there can't be lobha for Nibbana. Two, all Ariyans do not have lobha associated with wrong view. Three, their knowledge of the Four Noble Truths is firm, therefore they know clearly, that lobha leads to Dukkha and that the Noble Eightfold Path leads out of Dukkha. So rather than take the Anagami's still existing lobha as excuse to follow a "practice" led by your own lobha , have confidence in the Noble Eightfold Path and know that lobha is NOT the way. > >Are you referring to the lobha accompanying wrong view or without > >wrong view as well? > >>>>>>>>>>> > > Of course the lobha that I talk about is without wrong view (which > wouldn't allow stream entry to occur). > But my response was to your statement: Quote: "Of course at the moment of sotopatti maggaphala, there is no lobha. But it could have arisen prior, perhaps long time ago." But isn't it that a sotapanna continues to have lobha without wrong view? > >But see, you are not being clear. > > I was. > > >You say here that lobha does not accompany enlightenment, but you do > >not say whether it is necessary prior to that. > >>>>>>>>> > > As Bhikkhuni sutta suggests, lobha can be used to set one on the path. > Lobha must be *understood* if one is to make progress along the Path. Although lobha must invariably arise, including towards the idea of progress along the Path, wisdom sees in fact, that lobha and the Noble Eightfold Path lead in opposite directions. > >It would be better if you just gave a straight response. How does > >lobha lead to Anagami? Are both lobha and panna part of the Path? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Lobha, conceit, etc could motivate one "the other person is Awakened. > I want to be Awakened as well. Why him and not me?!" and then one > would practice through which one will abandon the fetters and become > Awakened. I also think that fear of samsara could be used in similar > fashion. Of course it goes without saying that one would abandon > unwholesome tendencies at appropriate times. > So do you think that mana, lobha and dosa, all are necessary part of the Path? Akusala must arise for the puthujjana. But they must be understood and not seen as a necessary driving force. > >You mean practice is a conditioned dhamma and that with each arising, > >panna accumulates? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > The behavior of the mind changes (less akusala more kusala) with practice. > Practice as in the arising of patipatti, a conditioned dhamma. And although panna does accumulate, I think it is a mistake to believe that there is noticeable change in the kusala vs. akusala tendencies, given the practice arises so rarely. If one comes away with the impression that there is a big change, chances are that this is the observation of lobha and self view. > >but your practice in fact refers to meditation? > > As conventional word, yes. Samatha, vipassana, satipatthana... > Meditation is not just a conventional word, it is a conventional activity that reflect wrong view. Labeling it samatha, vipassana, satipatthana does not change this fact. > > You really underestimate the profundity of the Dhamma Alex. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Dhamma is not about getting PhD in ancient Indian philosophy. It is > about learning skill not to experience Dukkha. > Studying the Dhamma is to study every word carefully. This can only happen if one relates what is read with the present moment reality. You definitely won't go more than a few steps in any given lifetime. Nobody is going to get any PhD for this. "Learning skill not to experience Dukkha", sounds like ambition talking here. > >A straight answer to my question would be more revealing of what your > >views are. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Mind practices kusala until this skill becomes strong enough that > akusala doesn't arise. > You still have not answered my questions. Metta, Sukin #131254 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:08 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 35. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5 - Momentary death. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahaa-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, chapter V, 6, Gross darkness) that the Buddha said to the monks: "Monks, there is a darkness of interstellar space, impenetrable gloom, such a murk of darkness as cannot enjoy the splendour of this moon and sun, though they be of such mighty magic power and majesty." At these words a certain monk said to the Exalted One: "Lord, that must be a mighty darkness, a mighty darkness indeed! Pray, lord, is there any other darkness greater and more fearsome than that?" "There is indeed, monk, another darkness, greater and more fearsome. And what is that other darkness? "Monk, whatsoever recluses or brahmins understand not, as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus taking delight they compose a compound of activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus composing a compound of activities they fall down into the darkness of rebirth, into the darkness of old age and death, of sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation and despair. They are not released from birth, old age and death, from sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation and despair. They are not released from dukkha, I declare. "But, monk, those recluses or brahmins who do understand as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take not delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth... They are released from dukkha, I declare. Wherefore, monk, an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha. This is the arising of dukkha. This is the ceasing of dukkha. This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha." Lodewijk found this text always very awesome and he was highly impressed by it. So long as we have ignorance there will be no end to being in the cycle of birth and death. The Buddha showed the danger of ignorance and exhorted the monks to develop right understanding so as to realize the four noble Truths. (To be continued) #131255 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth and control truth_aerator Hello Sukin, all, > What about sun worshiping, do these apply to it? Sure, it is silabataparamasa. I hope that you understand the principle. >So sun worship, Sufi dancing, bathing in the Ganges, prostrating in >the direction of Mecca, singing songs of love to God, sitting in a >quiet place at 5 in the morning to read the suttas believing that >panna is more likely to arise then, these are not the stuff of rite >and rituals because the Visuddhimagga does not list them? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is possible to misapply a good thing such as reading the suttas. >Meditation, doing it with the intention to "stop becoming" is rooted >in attachment and self-view... >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why? Maybe for you it is so, but don't guess everyone else's motivation. >Both fail to understand that the Noble Eightfold Path is a >conditioned citta with accompanying mental factors which arises by >conditions beyond control regardless of the conventional activity. >>>>>>>>>>> On so many different occasions I, and others have said that: meditation teachers also teach that citta is conditioned. This is the point of practice! If there was control, practice would be useless. One could just control the citta to always be without lobha/dosa/moha. But one can't. >So you are saying that since an Anagami still has lobha, why we need >to be concerned about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is very partial understanding. What I am saying is that you can't simply use "don't meditate because you still have lobha and it ruins the path..." >Well, one, there can't be lobha for Nibbana. Right. I've nowhere stated that lobha is the cause of Nibbana. It isn't. >So rather than take the Anagami's still existing lobha as >excuse to follow a "practice" led by your own lobha , have confidence >in the Noble Eightfold Path and know that lobha is NOT the way. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lobha is not the way. But jhanas as part of samma-samadhi (8th factor) and satipatthana (called vipassana today) as 7th factor, along with all the other factors, is the way. >Meditation is not just a conventional word, it is a conventional >activity that reflect wrong view. Labeling it samatha, vipassana, >satipatthana does not change this fact. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What you are describing is not what suttas teach. They teach to meditate, while you use strawman arguments all the time to make the suttas say what they do not say, and I find this to be too bad. I don't feel like continuing this discussion where you twist the words to make them mean what they don't mean and repeatedly use strawman fallacy. Alex #131256 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:22 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: As you know, there are a number of suttas refering to a pantheon which I believe are allegories to describe different states of consciousness and if I recall sources correctly the Jhanas allow a glimpse.. ---------------------------- HCW: Yes. --------------------------- > I think it would be rather odd to assume that our world, our civilisation represent the highest development after close to 14 billion years sine BB, but instead of celestial beings , people may refer to aliens nowadays.. . ----------------------------- HCW: But the "Celestial Bodhisattvas/Buddhas" are something else. (Tony, help?) ------------------------------ D: I thought about celestial beings (gods/devas in the Buddhist pantheon) who would probably called 'Q's (Star Trek ) .. In which way would the Bodhisattva be different from them ? Certainly by kamma , see the Jatakas (likely meant to be allegories )... and the 32 marks of a Great Man ?. I think following extract from http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.de/2009/03/buddha-32-marks-of-greatness.html makes sense 'Part of the old tradition were these "marks of a great man." The Buddha was remarkably facile with incorporating widespread beliefs and re-purposing them towards enlightened ends. Therefore, his use of an old tradition, imbuing it with new significance, does not necessarily mean he was condoning the belief.Instead, he was often utilizing skillful means to teach. These marks were a convention well known among leading philosophers and nobles. The Buddha explained them to reinforce the teaching of karma, which contrary to modern opinion was neither well known, thoroughly understood, nor universally accepted among his contemporaries and their followers.' MN 91 states that the Buddha used psychic power to dissipate doubt about about 2 of the 32 marks.. But what do you have in mind? (B.T.W. I stumbled recently upon a DSG discussion (topic : sabbe dhamma anatta from November 02 , in which you too participated) , inspired by > > the present proposition of unconditioned dhammas ( still waiting for any canonical evidence) > ------------------------- > HCW: > ??? I don't recall. > -------------------------- > > D:hence time to meet good old Howard 11 years ago ;-) -------------------------------- HCW: Someone else! ;-) --------------------- D: perhaps only by 'CW' ? But seriously : I wonder whether the anatta discussion was much different to the present one. I will possibly take look and come back to it. (D:> I wonder sometimes why it is so difficult to accept the Law of Dependent Origination as a/the middle Way of to be and not to be . ------------------------------- HCW: It is deep and subtle. ------------------------------ D: yes, but not necessarily the understanding of a middle between two extremes.... with Metta Dieter #131257 From: han tun Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:40 am Subject: Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (17) hantun1 Dear Friends, [Selected Suttas from An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi] 70. A Superior Person [AN 4.73 Suppurisa Sutta] Monks, one who has four qualities should be considered an inferior person. What are thesefour? (1) Even unasked, an inferior person reveals the faults of others, how much more so when he is asked. When asked, however, and led on by questions, he speaks of others' faults without omitting anything, without holding back, fully and in detail. He should be considered an inferior person. (2) Further: even when asked, an inferior person does not reveal what is praiseworthy in others, and still less so when not asked. When asked, however, and obliged to reply to questions, he speaks of what is praiseworthy in others with omissions and hesitatingly, incompletely and not in detail. He should be considered an inferior person. (3) Further: an inferior person does not reveal his own faults even when asked, still less so when not asked. When asked, however, and obliged to reply to questions, he speaks of his own faults with omissions and hesitatingly, incompletely and not in detail. He should be considered an inferior person. (4) Further: an inferior person reveals his own praiseworthy qualities even unasked, how much more so when asked. When asked, however, and led on by questions, he speaks of his own praiseworthy qualities without omissions and without hesitation, fully and in detail. He should be considered an inferior person. One who has these four qualities should be considered an inferior person. -------------------- Monks, one who has four qualities should be considered a superior person. What are these four? (1) Even when asked, a superior person does not reveal the faults of others, and still less so when not asked. When asked, however, and led on by questions, he speaks of others' faults with omissions and hesitatingly, incompletely and not in detail. He should be considered a superior person. (2) Further: even unasked, a superior person reveals what is praiseworthy in others, how much more so when he is asked. When asked, however, and obliged to reply to questions, he speaks of what is praiseworthy in others without omitting anything, without holding back, fully and in detail. He should be considered a superior person. (3) Further: even unasked, a superior person reveals his own faults, how much more so when he is asked. When asked, however, and obliged to reply to questions, he speaks of his own faults without omitting anything, without holding back, fully and in detail. He should be considered a superior person. (4) Further: even when asked, a superior person does not reveal his own praiseworthy qualities, still less so when not asked. When asked, however, and obliged to reply to questions, he speaks of his own praiseworthy qualities with omissions and hesitatingly, incompletely and not in detail. He should be considered a superior person. One who has these four qualities should be considered a superior person. with metta, Han #131258 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:21 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ------- <. . .> >> KH: You are firmly convinced that the Buddha's Dhamma is a set of instructions for the practice of religious rites and rituals. >> > Thomas: Did I say that??? ------- KH: Did you deny it? Leaving you and me aside, what about Buddhists in general? What do 99.9% of Buddhists today believe the Buddha taught? I think most of us will agree he taught three things: to do good (dana) to refrain from evil (sila) and to purify the mind (bhavana). So what could "purifying the mind" involve, if not some kind of religious rite or ritual? Ken H #131259 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:34 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter & all - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > you wrote: > > > > As you know, there are a number of suttas refering to a pantheon which I believe are allegories to describe different states of consciousness and if I recall sources correctly the Jhanas allow a glimpse.. > ---------------------------- > HCW: > Yes. > --------------------------- > > I think it would be rather odd to assume that our world, our civilisation represent the highest development after close to 14 billion years sine BB, but instead of celestial beings , people may refer to aliens nowadays.. . > ----------------------------- > HCW: > But the "Celestial Bodhisattvas/Buddhas" are something else. (Tony, help?) > ------------------------------ > > > D: I thought about celestial beings (gods/devas in the Buddhist pantheon) who would probably called 'Q's (Star Trek ) .. ------------------------------ HCW: Yes, I remember Q! :-) ------------------------------ > > > In which way would the Bodhisattva be different from them ? Certainly by kamma , see the Jatakas (likely meant to be allegories )... and the 32 marks of a Great Man ?. ----------------------------- HCW: These special Bodhisattvas are salvational beings who are often viewed as at least at "Buddha level," a strange idea to me. For me it is a strange notion, but in any case, these are not just "space aliens." ---------------------------- > > I think following extract from http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.de/2009/03/buddha-32-marks-of-greatness.html makes sense > 'Part of the old tradition were these "marks of a great man." The Buddha was remarkably facile with incorporating widespread beliefs and re-purposing them towards enlightened ends. Therefore, his use of an old tradition, imbuing it with new significance, does not necessarily mean he was condoning the belief.Instead, he was often utilizing skillful means to teach. These marks were a convention well known among leading philosophers and nobles. The Buddha explained them to reinforce the teaching of karma, which contrary to modern opinion was neither well known, thoroughly understood, nor universally accepted among his contemporaries and their followers.' > > MN 91 states that the Buddha used psychic power to dissipate doubt about about 2 of the 32 marks.. > > But what do you have in mind? --------------------------- HCW: What I wrote above is all I know about it. ------------------------- > > > (B.T.W. I stumbled recently upon a DSG discussion (topic : sabbe dhamma anatta from November 02 , in which you too participated) , inspired by > > > the present proposition of unconditioned dhammas ( still waiting for any canonical evidence) > > ------------------------- > > HCW: > > ??? I don't recall. > > -------------------------- > > > > D:hence time to meet good old Howard 11 years ago ;-) > -------------------------------- > HCW: > Someone else! ;-) > --------------------- > > D: perhaps only by 'CW' ? > > But seriously : I wonder whether the anatta discussion was much different to the present one. I will possibly take look and come back to it. ------------------------------- HCW: Good, that would be interesting. ------------------------------- > > > (D:> I wonder sometimes why it is so difficult to accept the Law of Dependent Origination as a/the middle Way of to be and not to be . > ------------------------------- > HCW: > It is deep and subtle. > ------------------------------ > > D: yes, but not necessarily the understanding of a middle between two extremes.... --------------------------------- HCW: Not a median or mean, certainly. Not a sort of averaging. ---------------------------------- > > with Metta Dieter ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #131260 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:37 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Thomas) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > ------- > <. . .> > >> KH: You are firmly convinced that the Buddha's Dhamma is a set of instructions for the practice of religious rites and rituals. > >> > > > Thomas: Did I say that??? > ------- > > KH: Did you deny it? > > Leaving you and me aside, what about Buddhists in general? What do 99.9% of Buddhists today believe the Buddha taught? I think most of us will agree he taught three things: to do good (dana) to refrain from evil (sila) and to purify the mind (bhavana). > > So what could "purifying the mind" involve, if not some kind of religious rite or ritual? ------------------------------ HCW: Ken, you are confusing me: Thomas is quo9ting the Buddha here!! Was he a rite & ritual sort of guy as you see it? ;-) ---------------------------- > > Ken H > =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #131261 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:11 am Subject: Re: the four right efforts, transcript. philofillet Hi Sarah Very interesting, thank you. Indeed, there *can* be moments of reflecting on the harm of akusala and those moments *can* condition the arising of moments of intention not to have akusala. But people aren't content with *can* , they build practices based on should, based in greed for progress. I like the suggestion at the beginning that reflecting on avoid evil, do good is probably good enough. The Dhamma is far more profound than people like to think. People like to play above their level. Phil #131262 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:56 am Subject: Re: the four right efforts, transcript. philofillet Hello again, Sarah and other listeners -------------------- AS: It's not "I", so it depends on conditions for that moment. Nina: But it's thinking. Will this really help? AS: Yes. It's thinking because there's thinking all the time, but thinking about akusala in many, many aspects, this and that, but when it's thinking about kusala, it can be thinking of not having akusala. "When it's thinking about kusala, it can be thinking about not having akusala." Interesting to remember that the famous words are avoid evil, do good, purify the mind, not the other way around, It is very tempting to want to go straight to doing good deeds but more realistic for conditions to arise to avoid evil deeds. Of course that avoiding is a good deed. But as Ajahn says it can arise through thinking about the dangers of akusala. Does this mean thinking about the dangers of subtle akusala as well as the dangers of gross akusala? For example, thinking about the dangers of lobha involved in what we take to be good deeds? If we were too concerned about that we would never do such an act as giving to a monk for example if we were always worried about desire for good results to come from it. Phil --- In > ***** > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #131263 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:48 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Thomas), --- <. . .> >> KH: So what could "purifying the mind" involve, if not some kind of religious rite or ritual? >> > HCW: Ken, you are confusing me: Thomas is quoting the Buddha here!! Was he a rite & ritual sort of guy as you see it? ;-) --- KH: I don't remember Thomas quoting anything. But, more to the point, quoting isn't understanding is it? One man's rite-and-ritual quote is another man's conditionality quote. Ken H #131264 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:10 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Thomas)- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Howard (and Thomas), > > --- > <. . .> > >> KH: So what could "purifying the mind" involve, if not some kind of religious rite or ritual? > >> > > > HCW: Ken, you are confusing me: Thomas is quoting the Buddha here!! Was he a rite & ritual sort of guy as you see it? ;-) > --- > > KH: I don't remember Thomas quoting anything. But, more to the point, quoting isn't understanding is it? One man's rite-and-ritual quote is another man's conditionality quote. ------------------------------ HCW: The quotation is from the Dhammapada, specifically: /Not to do any evil, to cultivate good, to purify one's mind, this is the teaching of the Buddhas./183 or /Do no harm, do good, and purify the mind - this is the teaching of the buddhas./ ------------------------------ > > Ken H > ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #131265 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:00 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > ------- > <. . .> > >> KH: You are firmly convinced that the Buddha's Dhamma is a set of instructions for the practice of religious rites and rituals. > >> > > > Thomas: Did I say that??? > ------- > > KH: Did you deny it? > > Leaving you and me aside, what about Buddhists in general? What do 99.9% of Buddhists today believe the Buddha taught? I think most of us will agree he taught three things: to do good (dana) to refrain from evil (sila) and to purify the mind (bhavana). > > So what could "purifying the mind" involve, if not some kind of religious rite or ritual? > -------------- Thomas: I ask you again: Did I say it? ----------- Thomas #131266 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:09 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > --- > <. . .> > >> KH: I had already answered his previous questions about absolute realities in the suttas. > >> > > > Thomas: I really do not think you had, and are able to find any Pali suttas suitably and sufficiently to support your Dhammas. > --- > > KH: I have done my best. But believe me, Thomas, there is nothing I could have said that would change your mind. > > You are firmly convinced that the Buddha's Dhamma is a set of instructions for the practice of religious rites and rituals. I can't compete with that. > > All I can do at DSG is discuss the Dhamma that the Buddha actually taught. He taught a here-and-now Dhamma. He did not teach a set of instructions designed to enable permanent beings to attain exalted states in the future. > > But I can't convince you of that. > ------- Thomas: Are you again making it up for your face? ----- Thomas #131267 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:24 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Tony (and Thomas), > > ----- > KH: ... a Theravada discussion. ... when we talk about dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality) we *are* following the Pali texts. > > Thomas: It would be good if you could indicate which Pali sutta (s) you refer to? > > Tony: Now that would be extremely useful Ken! > ------- > > KH: I chose not to answer Thomas's question because I felt uneasy about it.I had already answered his previous questions about absolute realities in the suttas. Thomas: I really do not think you had, and are able to find any Pali suttas suitably and sufficiently to support your Dhammas: " dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality)" This is the main issue of your faith, without any Pali suttas needed to support it. ---------- Thomas #131268 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Dear Thomas > > " dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality)" > > This is the main issue of your faith, without any Pali suttas needed to support it. > You are being coddled, along with others. Have a look at the group's home page and the description of the founding principles. If you don't believe in paramattha dhammas (and you are not alone) why not go to some other group? I just don't get it. That goes for anyone who doesn't accept the principles on the group's home page. Actually I don't know why that home page description is there. It seems pointless since nobody seems to respect it. Might as well get rid of it and put a big smiley face or peace sign instead. Or a great big Metta in rainbow colours. Could I request that the moderators consider scrapping the "for anyone who is interested in the dhammas as taught in ***in three baskets and further explained in the ancient commentaries*** section of the home page description and put " for anyone interested in the Buddha's teaching." Period. Then the sutta poppers could pop their sutta passages to their hearts' delight without paying any token attention to Abhidhamma or commentaries. Phil #131269 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:21 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > You are being coddled, along with others. Have a look at the group's home page and the description of the founding principles. If you don't believe in paramattha dhammas (and you are not alone) why not go to some other group? I just don't get it. .... S: And that's the problem, the "not getting it", the being annoyed and disturbed by what others write, rather than seeing that the problem always comes back to 'one's own' akusala citta now - the attachment and aversion now. I feel very fortunate to have had this point stressed so much by A.Sujin. Whilst one complains about everyone else, one completely forgets about paramattha dhammas, conditioned realities. At such times, there is no understanding at all of what the Buddha taught in any part of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries. The Teachings are always about 'now', about the citta now! If we just repeat what we've heard about namas and rupas, about ultimate realities, about khandhas, ayatanas and so on, but never develop the courage and truthfulness to understand what is real, what is the problem now, any understanding remains at a very superficial level as I see it. You have a lot to contribute, Phil and I'm sure everyone appreciates your helpful discussions with Nina and others. I really don't think anyone would be reading/writing here if they weren't interested to understand more about what the Buddha really taught. But it's not easy at all, as the Buddha said himself! Metta Sarah ==== #131270 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:01 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi Sarah > > > You are being coddled, along with others. Have a look at the group's home page and the description of the founding principles. If you don't believe in paramattha dhammas (and you are not alone) why not go to some other group? I just don't get it. > .... > S: And that's the problem, the "not getting it", the being annoyed and disturbed by what others write, rather than seeing that the problem always comes back to 'one's own' akusala citta now - the attachment and aversion now. I feel very fortunate to have had this point stressed so much by A.Sujin. Absolutely right. As you know I understand it is just dhammas performing functions. Carry on, Thomas, and others, on your quest to discredit the Dhamma theory. Over and out. Phil > > Whilst one complains about everyone else, one completely forgets about paramattha dhammas, conditioned realities. At such times, there is no understanding at all of what the Buddha taught in any part of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries. > > The Teachings are always about 'now', about the citta now! If we just repeat what we've heard about namas and rupas, about ultimate realities, about khandhas, ayatanas and so on, but never develop the courage and truthfulness to understand what is real, what is the problem now, any understanding remains at a very superficial level as I see it. > > You have a lot to contribute, Phil and I'm sure everyone appreciates your helpful discussions with Nina and others. I really don't think anyone would be reading/writing here if they weren't interested to understand more about what the Buddha really taught. But it's not easy at all, as the Buddha said himself! > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > #131271 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:29 pm Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. philofillet Dear Group A useful posts with lots of shoulds. I think I am the only person who objects to these sort of "shoulds" so I am probably wrong about them. But for now, an anti-"should" rampage. > > It is important to consider whether one is ready to give up the idea > of being, person or self, or not yet. At this moment there is no > self, but is one ready to become detached from the world? Ph: surely no one here. We cling to the world, to all sense door and mind door objects. First of > all, one should clearly know that there is no self, being or person, > so that one can become detached from the world and be liberated from it. Ph: Easy to say! But even if we easily say there is no self, we cling to everything seen, heard, tasted, smelled and known through the mine door as me, my self, mine. It has been going on for countless lives and on it will go. > Some people cannot bear the truth that there is no self who is > seeing, hearing or experiencing the other sense objects. Ph: I'm not sure about this. Meditators, for example, *love* to say they know there is no self. Thereby the troublesome little truth that their practices are motivated by their belief in a self that can cause dhammas to arise can be skipped merrily, or called a straw man. Being able to say "there is no self" is (unless they are Thanissarians) utterly cool and super Buddhist!!! They cannot > accept it that there are in the absolute sense no relatives and > friends, no possessions, no things they could enjoy. Usually, people > do not believe that they should be liberated from the world. Ph: hmmm. In how many moments is there anything but clinging to whatever sense door and mind door objects? (Or aversion conditioned by clinging.) In order > to abandon the clinging to the view of self or mine, one should > develop the pa~n~naa which knows all realities which appear as they > really are. Then one will truly know the world which consists of > these realities. Ph: no "should" for the development of panna. If there is idea of "should" the self will get involved. Well, we can say that we should understand the conditions for panna, that we should listen to the wise Dhamma friend. But whether panna develops or not is beyond the domain of "should." > It is not easy to know the world as it really is. Those who have > learnt the truth about the world the Buddha realized himself by his > enlightenment and taught to others, should carefully consider what > they have learnt and apply it in their daily life. Ph:If the considering arises due to conditions, it arises. They should > continue to develop pa~n~naa so that it can become keener and know > the characteristics of realities which constitute the world as they > really are. Ph: They should listen to the wise friend and perhaps there will be conditions for panna to develop. Or perhaps just a lot of akusala restlessness and other akusala. No telling if panna will develop. Conditions, which I suppose could involve hearing "shoulds." We should know the world at this very moment, not > another time. Ph: There may be conditions for us to know it. We should know the world when there is seeing, hearing, > smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object or thinking, at this > very moment. We should listen to the Dhamma and study it, so that > there can be awareness, investigation and understanding of the > characteristics of realities appearing through the six doors. This is > the only way that pa~n~naa can develop and know the world which > arises and falls away now. > We should listen so there ***can*** be awareness. Phil #131272 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:34 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 36. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5, `Momentary death' (cont'd): When we were having breakfast Acharn would usually join us and speak about Dhamma. During one of our breakfasts, she reminded us of the four kinds of right effort (samma-padhaanas): the effort to avoid akusala, to overcome akusala, to develop what is kusala, namely the enlightenment factors[8], and to maintain what is kusala. With regard to the first right effort, she exhorted us not to have ignorance anymore, to avoid ignorance which has not yet arisen. There is no self who can prevent ignorance, but seeing its danger can condition the development of understanding. There can be a little more understanding each day. Ignorance is not understanding whatever appears. Not understanding is like dreaming, Acharn said. When there is seeing, there is no one in the seeing. We have to consider this again and again so that there will be detachment from the idea of self or person. [8] Wholesome factors leading to enlightenment, including the Applications of Mindfulness, confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom and many others. (To be continued) #131273 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:40 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > This understanding would give a much more clear idea of whether sila, dana, metta, the other immeasurables, are in fact *supports* for the development of wisdom leading to enlightenment, or just sort of side-factors. I think they must be somewhat central, not only for their leading to greater degrees of openness, joy, selflessness, etc. which lead to greater peace and understanding, but also through their eradication of the corresponding defilements, which *is* a precondition for higher development of wisdom and everything else. You can't concentrate, attend mindfully, reach equanimity, etc., while at the same time being drawn to addictive sense objects, etc., as well as jumping from object to object like a monkey, or worrying that your neighbor has a nicer car than you do, or a bigger dog. > =============== J: I appreciate that the `distractions' you mention here (i.e., being drawn to addictive sense objects, etc., as well as jumping from object to object like a monkey, or worrying that your neighbor has a nicer car than you do, or a bigger dog) would be a hindrance to a certain idea of what mindfulness is/involves (for example, an idea that mindfulness involves one's attention being focussed in a certain way or on certain objects). But I do not think these things are a hindrance to the mindfulness that was taught by the Buddha. To my understanding, that mindfulness is mindfulness of the way things are in truth and reality at the present moment. The conditions for such mindfulness to arise are not things like being in a quiet place or being `focussed', but are things such as having reflected on how the teachings of the Buddha on dhammas (and the Four Noble Truths, etc.) apply to the present moment as it occurs at any time. Jon #131274 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:58 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > [[I have been waiting for years for one from you or anyone that says that meditation is bad for the path. Still haven't seen a single quote! Not one! Yet everyone keeps claiming this over and over again based on their own shared logic that has been adopted without any direct scriptural support. So much for understanding the " In fact the scriptures, including the Abhidhamma, talk positively about meditation practice over and over again, so do the suttas and so does the Visudhimagga, going into great detail about selecting meditation objects and how to meditate step by step, yet it is all dismissed as mere chatter and accidental referencing of something that is very very bad, even though no one says this. So quotes can be absent at times when they are very significant on both sides. But I digress.]] > =============== J: You say, "I have been waiting for years for [a quote from the texts] from you or anyone that says that meditation is bad for the path. Still haven't seen a single quote! Not one!" There's a good reason why you've not seen such a quote, and never will: there's no equivalent of the term "meditation" in the Pali texts, so no mention of it, either for or against.!! :-)) You say, "In fact the scriptures, including the Abhidhamma, talk positively about meditation practice over and over again, so do the suttas and so does the Visudhimagga, going into great detail about selecting meditation objects and how to meditate step by step". You are here using the term "meditation" to refer to certain things that are mentioned in the texts although not described as such. By diong so you are in effect creating a category or classification of things in the teachings (i.e., the meditation vs. the non-meditation parts) that was not suggested by the Buddha himself or the ancient commentators. I'd be interested to hear why you think this is likely to be useful to an understanding of the path. Is there agreement among "meditators" as to which parts of the text fall within the meditation category and which do not? Also, what do you see as being the significance of those parts of the teachings that relate to the development of the path but that are not "meditation"? Regarding, "it is all dismissed as mere chatter and accidental referencing of something that is very very bad, even though no one says this", I think what you mean is that you don't agree with the interpretation I present (which is, as best I understand it, the orthodox Theravadin position). Happy to look at any of the textual passages you have in mind. But no need to hold your breath on the "meditation" quote from the texts :-)) Jon #131275 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:05 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. sarahprocter... Dear Phil, (Han & all) You raise good points. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: <...> > First of > > all, one should clearly know that there is no self, being or person, > > so that one can become detached from the world and be liberated from it. > > Ph: Easy to say! But even if we easily say there is no self, we cling to everything seen, heard, tasted, smelled and known through the mine door as me, my self, mine. It has been going on for countless lives and on it will go. .... S: I think the point here is that the path has to begin with the understanding of dhammas as dhammas of dhammas as anatta (not self), otherwise there is always the idea of "my practise". No suggestion that such understanding is easy. I agree that 'shoulds' can be taken the wrong way whenever there is an idea of a Doer or Practiser or steps to be followed and we *should* use them sparingly, perhaps. Just read the Sutta Han (AN 6:46, Mahaacunda Sutta) quoted with the following at the end: sikkhitabba? "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." ``Tasmaatihaavuso , eva.m sikkhitabba.m `dhammayogaa samaanaa jhaayiina.m bhikkhuuna.m va.n.na.m bhaasissaamaa`ti. Eva~nhi vo, aavuso, sikkhitabba.m. Ta.m kissa hetu? Acchariyaa hete, aavuso, puggalaa dullabhaa lokasmi.m, ye amata.m dhaatu.m kaayena phusitvaa viharanti. Tasmaatihaavuso, eva.m sikkhitabba.m `jhaayii samaanaa dhammayogaana.m bhikkhuuna.m va.n.na.m bhaasissaamaa`ti. Eva~nhi vo, aavuso, sikkhitabba.m. Ta.m kissa hetu? Acchariyaa hete, aavuso, puggalaa dullabhaa lokasmi.m ye gambhiira.m atthapada.m pa~n~naaya ativijjha passantii``ti. **** S: Note the use of 'should train' in translation for 'sikkhitabba.m. Difficult to translate it another way. The more we understand dhammas as anatta, just conditioned elements, the less we trip up over such use of conventional expressions - worldly terms used by the Buddha to communicate with those who could 'get it'. 'Meditators' - wouldn't be my choice of translation - I think it refers to those who have developed samatha bhavana to the degree of jhana. On the last sentence: "Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." S: Yes, the difficulty of the path *should* be stressed! A note by B.Bodhi in his new translation on this line: "gambhiira.m athapada.m pa~n~naaya ativijjha passanti. Mp: "The 'deep and pithy mater' includes the aggregates, elements, sense bases, and so forth, which are subtle and hidden. They see this after penetrating it with insight and path wisdom (sahavipssanaaya maagapa~n~naaya)." S: Only one way - penetrating the dhammas (paramattha dhammas) with insight and path wisdom. Metta Sarah ===== #131276 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (17) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for the sutta. Op 14-jun-2013, om 21:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven > [Selected Suttas from An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara > Nikaya, translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi] > > 70. A Superior Person [AN 4.73 Suppurisa Sutta] > > Monks, one who has four qualities should be considered an inferior > person. What are these four? > > (1) Even unasked, an inferior person reveals the faults of others, > how much more so when he is asked. ... > (2) Further: even when asked, an inferior person does not reveal > what is praiseworthy in others, > Monks, one who has four qualities should be considered a superior > person. What are these four? > > (1) Even when asked, a superior person does not reveal the faults > of others, and still less so when not asked.... > (2) Further: even unasked, a superior person reveals what is > praiseworthy in others, > -------- N: It is so easy to see the wrong in others but what about one's own citta? This reminds me of a text in the Dhammapada, about this subject, that it is so easy to see others' faults. Actually, there is no one, only different realities. Sarah wrote a post to Phil about minding one's citta now and I like to quote this: > -------S: And that's the problem, the "not getting it", the being > annoyed and disturbed by what others write, rather than seeing that > the problem always comes back to 'one's own' akusala citta now - > the attachment and aversion now. I feel very fortunate to have had > this point stressed so much by A.Sujin. > ----- N: See, whatever appears now has to be known, also when it is akusala. ----- Sarah: Whilst one complains about everyone else, one completely forgets about paramattha dhammas, conditioned realities. At such times, there is no understanding at all of what the Buddha taught in any part of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries. ----- N: We always disparage others, seeing their faults, but there are only paramattha dhammas. This is so true. ------ Sarah: The Teachings are always about 'now', about the citta now! If we just repeat what we've heard about namas and rupas, about ultimate realities, about khandhas, ayatanas and so on, but never develop the courage and truthfulness to understand what is real, what is the problem now, any understanding remains at a very superficial level as I see it. ------ N: Each sutta is acutally about understanding the present moment. If we read suttas in another way we shall not get to the true meaning. Always now, citta now. No theory. We have to be courageous and truthful. Coming to know the mass of our own defilements, even now. There can so easily be conceit when thinking of others' faults. The superior person in the sutta is an ariyan, he has right understanding of ralities. ------ Nina. #131277 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:44 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > But I do not think these things [Rob: distractions, addictions etc.] are a hindrance to the mindfulness that was taught by the Buddha. To my understanding, that mindfulness is mindfulness of the way things are in truth and reality at the present moment. The conditions for such mindfulness to arise are not things like being in a quiet place or being `focussed', but are things such as having reflected on how the teachings of the Buddha on dhammas (and the Four Noble Truths, etc.) apply to the present moment as it occurs at any time. I think there is a potential for misunderstanding here which is also important to consider: the factors that arise with mindfulness include a certain level of calm, concentration etc. - correct me if I'm wrong - and so at the moment of satipatthana those factors in addition to others have to be present as well. I remember commentary quotes [can't cite them as I don't have my own copies] that spoke of distraction and restlessness being the enemy of mindfulness and concentration. Sorry to not supply quotes but perhaps you have access to a statement from commentary of the accompanying factors or cetasikas for satipatthana when it arises. The question then is whether these factors merely arise mechanically as natural accompaniments to satipatthana or sati sampajanna and other versions of mindfulness, or whether they are necessary supporting conditions. I would think the latter. This doesn't mean that worldly addictions such as wanting a nicer car are at play, but the factors themselves, such as attachment, mistaking addictive desires for self, etc., are enemies of mindfulness and I don't believe it would be able to arise with them as accompaniments. In my view, your point about sati being capable of being mindful of any dhamma, including one that is highly akusala, such as it being aware of distraction or greed or restlessness or addictiveness, is of course correct, but it would be a different moment of mindfulness that would become aware of the akusala moment that had just passed, and the akusala cetasikas would not arise at the same time as a moment of mindfulness. So at the actual moment of satipattana, sampajana or panna arising, the accompanying cetasikas - and perhaps the conditions that cause it to arise...? - would have to include the kusala factors and exclude the akusala factors mentioned. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #131278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the four right efforts, transcript. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 15-jun-2013, om 0:56 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Interesting to remember that the famous words are avoid evil, do > good, purify the mind, not the other way around, It is very > tempting to want to go straight to doing good deeds but more > realistic for conditions to arise to avoid evil deeds. Of course > that avoiding is a good deed. But as Ajahn says it can arise > through thinking about the dangers of akusala. ------ N: At other moments Acharn would stress that without purifying the citta (namely by right understanding) there cannot be the first two factors. Thus, right understanding first. No, it is not enough just doing good deeds, because we tend to take them for self. ------ > > Ph: Does this mean thinking about the dangers of subtle akusala as > well as the dangers of gross akusala? For example, thinking about > the dangers of lobha involved in what we take to be good deeds? If > we were too concerned about that we would never do such an act as > giving to a monk for example if we were always worried about desire > for good results to come from it. ---- N: The danger of ignorance of ralities is to be stressed in the first place. Taking akusala for kusala is because of ignorance. ----- Nina. #131279 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:53 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. moellerdieter Dear Sarah, all, you wrote: Just read the Sutta Han (AN 6:46, Mahaacunda Sutta) quoted with the following at the end: sikkhitabbaṃ "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." D: Satu! This is good and fitting quotation , Sarah. A good reminder for those , who prefer DSG limited to Abhidhamma discussion (respectively their interpretation of it ) and do not seek a common understanding , which - e.g. by above- we are requested to train ourselves. As I am concerned, this is the main reason to be (still ) a member , besides a general friendliness of the forum , of which in particular you , Nina and Jon , have always given an example . so far ;-) and back to talk about different views ;-) with Metta Dieter #131280 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:25 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. philofillet Hi Sarah The use of "should" in a sutta translation is fine for those of us who understood how subtle the Dhamma is, and really it is fine and I am quibbling when I point it out in Ajahn or Nina's writing because we know what lies behind it, the dhamma processes. If others are motivated by reading suttas to believe in prescription that is the way of the world, and their problem. As for "meditators" I use it to refer to modern people who like to try to imitate what they read about pleasurably in suttas or what they are sold by modern teachers. It's a self help industry and as I've said before it makes people happy in the short term, so why not? There is no reason to expect the true Dhamma to survive. The Buddha himself predicted that it wouldn't. Phil P.s It's a bit unfortunate that my experience with sutta cut and pasters who use their favourite passages at DSG to score points in debates has turned me off the suttanta. It would take some time away from DSG to recover. The notion of the Buddha's teaching being used to score points in Internet debates is just so silly. The Dhamma is way too profound to be tossed around like that. Not that it is sacrasanct, just profound. #131281 From: han tun Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (17) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments which are very useful. Nina: It is so easy to see the wrong in others but what about one's own citta? This reminds me of a text in the Dhammapada, about this subject, that it is so easy to see others' faults. Actually, there is no one, only different realities. Sarah wrote a post to Phil about minding one's citta now and I like to quote this: ----- [Sarah: And that's the problem, the "not getting it", the being annoyed and disturbed by what others write, rather than seeing that the problem always comes back to 'one's own' akusala citta now - the attachment and aversion now. I feel very fortunate to have had this point stressed so much by A.Sujin.] ----- Nina: See, whatever appears now has to be known, also when it is akusala. ----- Sarah: Whilst one complains about everyone else, one completely forgets about paramattha dhammas, conditioned realities. At such times, there is no understanding at all of what the Buddha taught in any part of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries. ----- Nina: We always disparage others, seeing their faults, but there are only paramattha dhammas. This is so true. ------ Sarah: The Teachings are always about 'now', about the citta now! If we just repeat what we've heard about namas and rupas, about ultimate realities, about khandhas, ayatanas and so on, but never develop the courage and truthfulness to understand what is real, what is the problem now, any understanding remains at a very superficial level as I see it. ------ Nina: Each sutta is actually about understanding the present moment. If we read suttas in another way we shall not get to the true meaning. Always now, citta now. No theory. We have to be courageous and truthful. Coming to know the mass of our own defilements, even now. There can so easily be conceit when thinking of others' faults. The superior person in the sutta is an ariyan, he has right understanding of realities. ---------------------- with metta and respect, Han From: Nina van Gorkom Dear Han, Thank you for the sutta. #131282 From: han tun Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:29 am Subject: Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (18) - the END hantun1 Dear Friends, [Selected Suttas from An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi] 30. An Island of Refuge [AN 3.52 Pa.thamadvebraahma.na sutta, AN 3.53 Dutiyadvebraahma.na sutta] Once two frail and old brahmins, aged, advanced in years, at life's end, one hundred and twenty years of age, approached the Blessed One and said to him: "We are brahmins, Master Gotama, frail and old, aged, advanced in years, at life's end, one hundred and twenty years of age. But we have not done anything that is good and wholesome, we have not made a shelter for ourselves. Let Master Gotama admonish us and exhort us, so that it may lead to our welfare and happiness for a long time!" "Truly, brahmins, you are frail and old, aged, advanced in years, at life's end, one hundred and twenty years of age, and you have not done anything good and wholesome, you have not made a shelter for yourselves. Indeed, brahmins, this world is swept away by old age, illness and death. Though the world is thus swept away by old age, illness and death, for one who departs from this world self-control in deeds, words, and thoughts will provide shelter and safety, an island of refuge and succour." Life is swept away, brief is our span of years, There are no shelters for one who has reached old age. Perceiving the peril that lurks in death, Perform good deeds that entail happiness. When one is restrained in body, Restrained by speech and by mind, The deeds of merit one did while alive Bring happiness when one departs. When a house is burning, the goods removed from it, Will be of use, but not what burns inside. Thus, in this world aflame with age and death, Save what you own by liberality Your goods given, are well removed and safe. When one is restrained in body, Restrained by speech and by mind, The deeds of merit one did while alive Bring happiness when one departs. -------------------- This is the END of my serial presentation of Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya. Like the two frail and old brahmins in the above sutta, I am also seeking refuge. Buddha.m sara.na.m gacchaami (To the Buddha for refuge I go). Dhamma.m sara.na.m gacchaami (To the Dhamma for refuge I go). Sangha.m sara.na.m gacchaami (To the Sangha for refuge I go). I am reflecting daily on the Nine Attributes of Lord Buddha. I recite once again the paragraph from AN 6.10 Mahaanaama Sutta. "When, Mahaanaama, a noble disciple has arrived at the fruit and understood the teaching, he often dwells in such a way as this. Here, a noble disciple recollects the Tathaagata thus: 'The Blessed One is an arahant, fully enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' When a noble disciple recollects the Tathaagata thus, on that occasion his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred or delusion; his mind is straight, with the Tathaagata as its object. A noble disciple whose mind is straight gains the inspiration of the meaning, the inspiration of the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened rapture arises; for one uplifted by rapture the body becomes calm; one calm in body feels happy; for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated. This is called a noble disciple who dwells evenly amidst an uneven generation, who dwells unafflicted amidst an afflicted generation, who has entered upon the stream of the Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha." I wish you all the best of health and happiness. with metta, Han #131283 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:15 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > > > [[I have been waiting for years for one from you or anyone that says that meditation is bad for the path. Still haven't seen a single quote! Not one! Yet everyone keeps claiming this over and over again based on their own shared logic that has been adopted without any direct scriptural support. So much for understanding the " In fact the scriptures, including the Abhidhamma, talk positively about meditation practice over and over again, so do the suttas and so does the Visudhimagga, going into great detail about selecting meditation objects and how to meditate step by step, yet it is all dismissed as mere chatter and accidental referencing of something that is very very bad, even though no one says this. So quotes can be absent at times when they are very significant on both sides. But I digress.]] > > =============== > > J: You say, "I have been waiting for years for [a quote from the texts] from you or anyone that says that meditation is bad for the path. Still haven't seen a single quote! Not one!" > > There's a good reason why you've not seen such a quote, and never will: there's no equivalent of the term "meditation" in the Pali texts, so no mention of it, either for or against.!! :-)) Well there is certainly no scriptural basis for declaring somethign to be true for which there is no evidence. Left with no direct statement about meditation, we are left with the knowledge that every Buddhist monk at the time of the Buddha and during every generation following, up to the present day, were all meditators, almost without exception. So it strains credulity to the breaking point to claim that a nonexistent tradition of non-meditation is "Orthodox Buddhism." That is like saying that Mormonism is Orthodox Christianity. It's absolutely the case that the vast majority of Buddhists all see meditation as a seminal part of the Buddhist practice, because it is an unbroken practice taught, practiced and extolled by the Buddha. There were very few things that the Buddha had to recommend as being against the tide of ignorance and defilements. Among those few things was jhana, which he called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now," and always spoke of in complimentary terms. Jhana was recommended and practice not as a leftover from other traditions, but as the practice of the Buddha himself - the platform for his enlightenment, and the launching pad for his Parinibbana. From the cradle of his enlightenment to the grave of his Parinibbana, his constant companion was his meditative attainments in mindfulness and jhana, the two poles of the monks' sitting practice. And so it was for virtually every monk during his life and ever since. If there is anything truly Orthodox in Buddhism it is meditation practice. The idea that there is no term for meditation is also a strain to credulity. Specific practices are talked about in conjunction with bhavana and the enlightenment factors. The Buddha gives a guarantee that if mindfulness is practiced correctly for a given period of time, it will lead to satipatthana and enlightenment. Whether the word is jhana, mindfulness, practice or development, they are brought together in sitting practice. When you sit and focus on breath or arising phenomenal experience in order to develop mindfulness or jhana, as prescribed by the Buddha in a number of suttas, that is meditation practice in Buddhism. > You say, "In fact the scriptures, including the Abhidhamma, talk positively about meditation practice over and over again, so do the suttas and so does the Visudhimagga, going into great detail about selecting meditation objects and how to meditate step by step". > > You are here using the term "meditation" to refer to certain things that are mentioned in the texts although not described as such. The word that is used to label such practices are not as important as the practice itself. This seems like an amazingly academic debate if it is not about the substance of these practices that are clearly delineated in detail, and instead about whether they had a singular name or not as we refer to them today and have for centuries. > By doing so you are in effect creating a category or classification of things in the teachings (i.e., the meditation vs. the non-meditation parts) that was not suggested by the Buddha himself or the ancient commentators. I suggest that there are a variety of specific topics in the Buddha's suttas. They are not all about everything, but have specific areas in each case. The ones that were about sitting and focusing on breath to develop mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness of the four areas of Satipatthana, were in fact about those topics, and in those cases, that is what they were about. There's no weird artificial separation there. It's just a matter of saying these particular suttas were about meditation, and in fact they were. Other suttas mention mindfulness of breathing or satipatthana in passing and that's fine too. Whenever they are mentioned they are in fact mentioned, when not they are not, as there may be another topic at play at that moment. This distinction between suttas that do or don't talk about something seems meaninguless to me. Meditative practices are specifically outlined as part of the practice of Buddhists over and over again, and so it is a part of the teaching. It's not a division but a clarification. The suttas that are about other areas of the teaching are about those areas, and they are part of the teaching as well. I don't see the problem. No separation, but yes, a variety of talks about important areas, and not all at once, or all every time. > I'd be interested to hear why you think this is likely to be useful to an understanding of the path. Is there agreement among "meditators" as to which parts of the text fall within the meditation category and which do not? The ones that talk about specific meditation practices are the ones that are about those practices. They are identified by what they are about and what they say. If you open a book about French literature, chances are it will be about French literature. If you read the satipatthana sutta, it will likely be about satipatthana, and it so happens that a bunch of practices are described in that sutta with satipatthana as their aim. I would generally include those as part of Buddhist meditation since they are concentration or mindfulness practices aimed towards satipatthana. Again, I don't see the problem, unless one wants to deny what the suttas say, as is sometimes a popular sport. If you can't find the word "meditation" in a sutta, but it describes a number of meditative practices in detail, you can ignore them based on the lack of a term that is not there, or you can acknowledge the content and go from there. > Also, what do you see as being the significance of those parts of the teachings that relate to the development of the path but that are not "meditation"? They are other parts of the path. All the teachings fit together, but they are not all the same all the time. All of them have some significance. Again, what's the problem? There may be ten books spoken about in a study of French literature. If book A is being talked about that doesn't mean the book B is no longer French literature. They are unified by all being French, and all being literature. The more of them you read and study, the more you will understand about the topic. Likewise, Buddhist teachings also have a number of areas to study. What is more important in Buddhism, kamma or decisive support condition? It's a nonsense question, as they are both significant. > Regarding, "it is all dismissed as mere chatter and accidental referencing of something that is very very bad, even though no one says this", I think what you mean is that you don't agree with the interpretation I present (which is, as best I understand it, the orthodox Theravadin position). I don't agree with the denial and dismissal of Buddhist meditation, no. > Happy to look at any of the textual passages you have in mind. But no need to hold your breath on the "meditation" quote from the texts :-)) In other words, there is no basis whatsoever for saying that meditative practices to develop mindfulness and samatha, as extolled, discussed, practiced and recommended by the Buddha, are somehow outside of Orthodox Buddhism. It is an invented viewpoint that has no basis in the scriptures. The ubiquitous presence of monks sitting and practicing mindfulness of breathing or satipatthana, however, does have a scriptural basis, and a very strong one. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #131284 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:36 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Hi again Sarah). > > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves > are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And > why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom > clearly understand a difficult subject." By the way I trust that it is clear to everyone but this sutta clip is saying that people of correct understanding should respect others of correct understanding although the correct understanding is arising in a different way. It is is ***not***saying that people of wrong understanding should be respected and praised by people of right understanding. That is just political correctness at work and leads to a dilution of correct understanding. This passage is often used for politically correct reasons here at DSG. It is a misunderstood by people if they believe that it is praising finding common ground between people of wrong understanding and right understanding. There is no common ground between people of wrong understanding and right understanding. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I think that is a point that Scott often made. There is never any doubt about that when I listen to the recorded talks but there is sometimes doubt about that here at DST. Friendliness is valued at the expense of consistent emphasis on correct understanding. But that is the natural result of having such an open forum and that is a choice of the moderators so I shouldn't complain. But I will of course. No control over that. Phil P.s in a rush, apologies for failing to trim the below. > > ``Tasmaatihaavuso , eva.m sikkhitabba.m  `dhammayogaa samaanaa jhaayiina.m bhikkhuuna.m va.n.na.m bhaasissaamaa`ti. Eva~nhi vo, aavuso, sikkhitabba.m. Ta.m kissa hetu? Acchariyaa hete, aavuso, puggalaa dullabhaa lokasmi.m, ye amata.m dhaatu.m kaayena phusitvaa viharanti. Tasmaatihaavuso, eva.m sikkhitabba.m  `jhaayii samaanaa dhammayogaana.m bhikkhuuna.m va.n.na.m bhaasissaamaa`ti. Eva~nhi vo, aavuso, sikkhitabba.m. Ta.m kissa hetu? Acchariyaa hete, aavuso, puggalaa dullabhaa lokasmi.m ye gambhiira.m atthapada.m pa~n~naaya ativijjha passantii``ti. > **** > S: Note the use of 'should train' in translation for 'sikkhitabba.m. Difficult to translate it another way. The more we understand dhammas as anatta, just conditioned elements, the less we trip up over such use of conventional expressions - worldly terms used by the Buddha to communicate with those who could 'get it'. > > 'Meditators' - wouldn't be my choice of translation - I think it refers to those who have developed samatha bhavana to the degree of jhana. > > On the last sentence: "Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." > > S: Yes, the difficulty of the path *should* be stressed! > > A note by B.Bodhi in his new translation on this line: > > "gambhiira.m athapada.m pa~n~naaya ativijjha passanti. Mp: "The 'deep and pithy mater' includes the aggregates, elements, sense bases, and so forth, which are subtle and hidden. They see this after penetrating it with insight and path wisdom (sahavipssanaaya maagapa~n~naaya)." > > S: Only one way - penetrating the dhammas (paramattha dhammas) with insight and path wisdom. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #131285 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:52 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. philofillet Hi again quickly. And yes I know Ajahn says she sometimes likes to all kinds of teachers even if they are wrong. But what do we learn from people who are wrong except where and how they are going wrong. Anyways not to worry. I am really happy with DSG these days there is a lot of teaching from Ajahn in transcripts and other sources. I will keep the Useful Posts (i.e correct understanding posts) coming and be satisfied with that. Except for occasional outbursts of bad behavior which will hopefully become fewer and fewer. I predict that they will. But maybe they won't. No way to know that. Dhamma processes at work. Perhaps there will be reflection on the harmfulness of a Chrisella and drunk speech. (Haha, Siri's transcription for "akusala and wrong speech" ) But perhaps there won't. Phil #131286 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:06 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Dear Thomas > > > > > " dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality)" > > > > This is the main issue of your faith, without any Pali suttas needed to support it. > > ---------- >Philip: ...If you don't believe in paramattha dhammas (and you are not alone) why not go to some other group? I just don't get it. Thomas: Tell us, what is Your paramattha dhammas that every one 'must' follow without any questions and discussions, and without any Pali suttas needed to support it? ---------- Thomas #131287 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:24 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > J: The problem is knowing exactly what is meant in the suttas by awareness/mindfulness. This I think would be a fruitful area for discussion. > > RE: Well that sounds both fruitful and fun. Why not take a look at the definitions/discussions of sati, sati sampajanna, satipatthana, panna, vipassana, etc., and see what the mechanism and specific elements are that support and condition and define different aspects of awareness/understanding/insight/wisdom. > =============== J: Ahem What posts have you been reading during your 10+ years' membership of this list? Take any post by Nina, Sarah or any of several others and you'll find that what's being discussed is awareness and the conditions for its arising. Other sources include any of Nina's writings (all available as pdf downloads from zolag.co.uk) and most of the messages in the Useful Posts but especially those under headings like Awareness, Sati/Satipatthana, Abhidhamma and Right Understanding, Paramattha, etc. > =============== > RE: The commentaries and sub-commentaries probably say a lot on these subjects, if you have them available. Hey - maybe someone can send me a complete copy of all the Abhidhamma commentaries and sub-commentaries in English so I can follow along...? :-) [My wife will throw me out, but I guess I could hide them in the basement, now that we have a house.] > =============== J: Unfortunately only a select few of the Abhidhamma commentaries are available in English translation. Most of these are published by the PTS and can be ordered on-line. > =============== > > J: My suggestion would be, less talk about how to `practice' and more discussion about dhammas and their characteristics. > > RE: I'm happy to spend some time on such discussion with or without respect to so-called practice, since I know you don't believe there is anything to practice. But at some point we can talk about bhavana and how exactly it takes place with respect to the various factors. > =============== J: I'm quite happy to talk about `bhavana' any time because it is (or it represents) a conditioned dhamma. > =============== > > J: In my view, there can be no benefit from a `practice' if there's no clear intellectual understanding of the nature of conditioned dhammas and, in particular, of the awareness or understanding that is being spoken of by the Buddha. > > RE: Ready to go! Hope I don't regret such a commitment as worldly activities are constantly assaulting me... > =============== J: Worldly activities and obligations are not the problem; once one realises what's truly unique and significant about the Buddha's teaching, certain other areas of interest become less attractive. Jon #131288 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quote from Survey. 2. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 15-jun-2013, om 20:25 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > The use of "should" in a sutta translation is fine for those of us > who understood how subtle the Dhamma is, and really it is fine and > I am quibbling when I point it out in Ajahn or Nina's writing > because we know what lies behind it, the dhamma processes. ------ N: Remember: we do not need any words, just be aware of characteristics, of the reality that appears. Then we do not mind so much about this or that word. There are only realities: then we do not mind what others say or do, scoring points etc. Life will be more peaceful. Nina. #131289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quote from Survey. 2. nilovg Dear Phil, You make me laugh. When we understand that there afre only realities, no persons, we shall not become so excited. We do not blame others and there are conditions for understanding that others have different backgrounds. No problem at all! Nina. Op 16-jun-2013, om 1:36 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Friendliness is valued at the expense of consistent emphasis on > correct understanding. But that is the natural result of having > such an open forum and that is a choice of the moderators so I > shouldn't complain. But I will of course. No control over that. #131290 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth and control sukinderpal Hi Alex, > > What about sun worshiping, do these apply to it? > > Sure, it is silabataparamasa. I hope that you understand the principle. > In your last reply this was what you said: Quote: ">You think that only the examples mentioned in the Visuddhimagga >constitute rites and rituals? >>>>>>>>> In principle, yes." So what are you really trying to tell me? Please elaborate. === > > >So sun worship, Sufi dancing, bathing in the Ganges, prostrating in > >the direction of Mecca, singing songs of love to God, sitting in a > >quiet place at 5 in the morning to read the suttas believing that > >panna is more likely to arise then, these are not the stuff of rite > >and rituals because the Visuddhimagga does not list them? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > It is possible to misapply a good thing such as reading the suttas. > If you would give a straight response, it would make the discussion easier. ==- > > >Meditation, doing it with the intention to "stop becoming" is rooted > >in attachment and self-view... > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Why? Maybe for you it is so, but don't guess everyone else's motivation. > I've expressed my views many times before, but I don't mind repeating Meditation as in the idea of sitting down (or standing up, or lying down, or walking) with the intention to note / observe a chosen object or any and all objects experienced through the five senses and the mind, is not something that panna would conceive of. The reason being that panna when arisen knows a reality and its nature as conditioned and anatta, hence no control. Not only the object of panna is conditioned and anatta, but the panna itself is conditioned and anatta. The first time that understanding arises is after one has heard the Dhamma, which must therefore be at the level of pariyatti, and known to arise without any intention to have it. Also one begins to know the difference between thinking and understanding and reality vs. concept. This leads to seeing importance in understanding the present moment reality while recognizing thought proliferation in terms of not only the past and future, but the present as well. In other words, one sign of being on the right Path is increased confidence that the "present moment reality" is the only object for the development of understanding. This if I remember correctly, is illustrated in the Buddha's first discourse, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta in the concept of Saccannana, Kiccannana and Katannana. Therefore if one thinks in terms of another time, place and activity for the development of understanding, this reflects lack of confidence that "now" is the only time for understanding. When this is made into a belief about "practice", it must therefore be due to wrong view having a wrong idea about practice. So do I need to read people's mind or ask them about it to know that what they do is wrong practice conditioned by wrong view? === > > > >Both fail to understand that the Noble Eightfold Path is a > >conditioned citta with accompanying mental factors which arises by > >conditions beyond control regardless of the conventional activity. > >>>>>>>>>>> > > On so many different occasions I, and others have said that: > meditation teachers also teach that citta is conditioned. This is the > point of practice! If there was control, practice would be useless. > One could just control the citta to always be without lobha/dosa/moha. > > But one can't. > Yes, you've said that before. But really it makes no difference even if you had all the ideas expressed in the Tipitaka in your head. Your practice goes against the understanding regarding the nature of the present moment reality, therefore what you do is a case of using concepts taught by the Buddha to support wrong practice. Now is now, not the "now" of another time, place and posture. === > > >So you are saying that since an Anagami still has lobha, why we need > >to be concerned about it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > That is very partial understanding. What I am saying is that you can't > simply use "don't meditate because you still have lobha and it ruins > the path..." > That is not what I am saying. What I say is that the Buddha taught about understanding the reality "now" and not doing something in particular in order that this happens. I am not saying that because we still have lobha, we should therefore not practice meditation. I am saying that the concept of meditation is the projection of lobha and wrong view. === > > >Well, one, there can't be lobha for Nibbana. > > Right. I've nowhere stated that lobha is the cause of Nibbana. It isn't. > But this is what you said in your last response: Quote: "If I understand correctly, then at maggaphala moment there is no lobha. But lobha (for rupa/arupa, Nibbana) can be present even for Anagamin. " === > > >So rather than take the Anagami's still existing lobha as > >excuse to follow a "practice" led by your own lobha , have confidence > >in the Noble Eightfold Path and know that lobha is NOT the way. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Lobha is not the way. But jhanas as part of samma-samadhi (8th factor) > and satipatthana (called vipassana today) as 7th factor, along with > all the other factors, is the way. > OK, so lobha is not the way. === > > >Meditation is not just a conventional word, it is a conventional > >activity that reflect wrong view. Labeling it samatha, vipassana, > >satipatthana does not change this fact. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > What you are describing is not what suttas teach. They teach to > meditate, while you use strawman arguments all the time to make the > suttas say what they do not say, and I find this to be too bad. > > I don't feel like continuing this discussion where you twist the words > to make them mean what they don't mean and repeatedly use strawman > fallacy. > You don't wish to discuss is fine. But do point out to me if you feel like it, how my explanation above, regarding my objection towards meditation, is using a straw man. Metta, Sukin #131291 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:33 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5, `Momentary death' (cont'd): Acharn reminded us that when we feel lonely, we are lonely with ignorance, but when we understand the lone world, the world without self or person, we can be cheerful, without problems. Then there are just seeing, hearing and the other realities arising and falling away. She gave us a precious reminder, saying that when one is sad and depressed one is preoccupied with "self", one thinks of oneself. Such moments can be understood as conditioned realities which arise and fall away. When one is more attentive to the welfare of others, one will think less of oneself. When people would say that the development of the understanding of realities is so difficult, Acharn would answer: "Now you are praising the Buddha's wisdom." This is true, he accumulated pa~n~naa for countless aeons, and he developed the perfections, such as daana, siila, mettaa or patience. He was determined to develop them in order to reach Buddhahood, out of compassion for all of us. Had he not become an omniscient Buddha who could teach us all realities today, we would be ignorant and we would be enslaved, clinging forever to sights, sounds and all sense objects. We should also be patient and courageous to develop pa~n~naa and all good qualities with determination. There can be a beginning now and we should not mind how long the development of the Path will take. We cannot expect to get rid of defilements on command, they are anattaa. (To be continued) #131292 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Quote from Survey. 2. philofillet hi Nina > When we understand that there afre only realities, > no persons, we shall not become so excited. Hmm. Depends on the accumulations, Nina. For me some of there can be conditions that bring understanding at some moments, and excitability and irritation at others. I have been helping various friends who are dealing with emotional troubles not to identify with any particular emotional experience, that is not "you", there are just different impulses, no fixed person. When we behave badly we don't have to feel terrible about it, there is understanding. That is why I put a photo entitled "Phil when Unfriendly" in the photo file. That Phil is no more or no less the real Phil than the friendly Phil. Just shifting aspects of dreams about Phil, stories about Phil... Phil We do not blame others > and there are conditions for understanding that others have different > backgrounds. No problem at all! > Nina. > > Op 16-jun-2013, om 1:36 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > Friendliness is valued at the expense of consistent emphasis on > > correct understanding. But that is the natural result of having > > such an open forum and that is a choice of the moderators so I > > shouldn't complain. But I will of course. No control over that. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #131293 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:34 pm Subject: Re: rebirth and control truth_aerator Hello Sukin, all, >Suk:So what are you really trying to tell me? Please elaborate. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The from the POV of suttas and VsM, what is called meditation today is not what is defined as rites & rituals. >Suk: Meditation as in the idea... >>>>>>>>>> It is an idea taken from suttas and commentaries. You and others bring forth faulty points that was never an issue in the suttas and commentaries. >Suk: This leads to seeing importance in understanding the present ?>moment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is what meditation is about. >Suk: Therefore if one thinks in terms of another time, place and >activity for the development of understanding, this reflects lack of >confidence that "now" is the only time for understanding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And why can't one meditate now? ............. Alex #131294 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:30 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hello Thomas > > Thomas: Tell us, what is Your paramattha dhammas that every one 'must' follow without any questions and discussions, and without any Pali suttas needed to support it? > Tell "us" what paramattha dhammas are? If you don't know what they are, do some research. I won't coddle you. If you don't accept them, I recommend not expecting people in a group that was founded based on appreciation of paramattha dhammas to change their understanding. That's absurd. Phil P.s Earlier msg didn't show up, if it does you'll get a double dose. #131295 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (18) - the END nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much. Lodewijk and I always found this sutta about the old brahmins very touching. I like your considerations afterwards. I hope you can continue, perhaps at a slower pace, once a week? Op 15-jun-2013, om 21:29 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > [Selected Suttas from An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara > Nikaya, translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi] > > 30. An Island of Refuge [AN 3.52 Pa.thamadvebraahma.na sutta, AN > 3.53 Dutiyadvebraahma.na sutta] > > Once two frail and old brahmins, aged, advanced in years, at life's > end, one hundred and twenty years of age, approached the Blessed > One and said to him: > > "We are brahmins, Master Gotama, frail and old, aged, advanced in > years, at life's end, one hundred and twenty years of > age. ...Indeed, brahmins, this world is swept away by old age, > illness and death. Though the world is thus swept away by old age, > illness and death, for one who departs from this world self-control > in deeds, words, and thoughts will provide shelter and safety, an > island of refuge and succour."... > > When one is restrained in body, > Restrained by speech and by mind, > The deeds of merit one did while alive > Bring happiness when one departs. > > -------------------- > N: Restraint in body, speech and mind, and this is indriya samvara siila. Through satipa.t.thaana there is the fulfilment of guarding the faculties, the senses of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Whatever appears through one of these six doorways can be known as just a reality, a dhamma. As has been stated in the parinibbaanasutta, through satipa.t.thaana there will be a true refuge. ------- > > H: This is the END of my serial presentation of Selected Suttas > from Anguttara Nikaya. > > Like the two frail and old brahmins in the above sutta, I am also > seeking refuge. > > Buddha.m sara.na.m gacchaami (To the Buddha for refuge I go). > Dhamma.m sara.na.m gacchaami (To the Dhamma for refuge I go). > Sangha.m sara.na.m gacchaami (To the Sangha for refuge I go). > ------- N: I repeat what I wrote before in the "Cycle of Birth and Death": The Buddha accumulated pa~n~naa for countless aeons, and he developed the perfections, such as daana, siila, mettaa or patience. He was determined to develop them in order to reach Buddhahood, out of compassion for all of us. Had he not become an omniscient Buddha who could teach us all realities today, we would be ignorant and we would be enslaved, clinging forever to sights, sounds and all sense objects. ------ > Nina. #131296 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:49 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote : (D: In which way would the Bodhisattva be different from them ? Certainly by kamma , see the Jatakas (likely meant to be allegories )... and the 32 marks of a Great Man ?.) ----------------------------- HCW: These special Bodhisattvas are salvational beings who are often viewed as at least at "Buddha level," a strange idea to me. For me it is a strange notion, but in any case, these are not just "space aliens." ---------------------------- D: no, not just space aliens ('Q' included ) .. those are from a different dimension than our All (world) I agree : it is a bit strange to think about beings on a savior path , wondering whether the Jatakas are pointing to that. Less speculative is the issue of a living Teacher . I do not doubt that an enlightened being is able to look into other's hearts and recognize the main obstacle (s). Insofar one can understand , that for some with respective accumulations a brief entcounter with Buddha was enough for liberation. More complicate for us to meet the condition that the scales will fall from eyes.. > (D:> I wonder sometimes why it is so difficult to accept the Law of Dependent Origination as a/the middle Way of to be and not to be . > ------------------------------- > HCW: > It is deep and subtle. > ------------------------------ > > D: yes, but not necessarily the understanding of a middle between two extremes.... --------------------------------- HCW: Not a median or mean, certainly. Not a sort of averaging. ---------------------------------- D: certainly not ..a middle understood more like the 'golden ratio ' with Metta Dieter #131297 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:55 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. philofillet Dear Group > > Acharn reminded us that when we feel lonely, we are lonely with ignorance, but when we understand the lone world, the world without self or person, we can be cheerful, without problems. Then there are just seeing, hearing and the other realities arising and falling away. Ph: just seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, thinking about what is seen what is heard. None of that is a person. We have to hear that again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. (Thank you Siri.) > > When people would say that the development of the understanding of realities is so difficult, Acharn would answer: "Now you are praising the Buddha's wisdom." This is true, he accumulated pa~n~naa for countless aeons, and he developed the perfections, such as daana, siila, mettaa or patience. He was determined to develop them in order to reach Buddhahood, out of compassion for all of us. Ph: I wonder what is the difference between developing the perfections and developing all kinds of kusala? Phil #131298 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 34 moellerdieter Dear Nina, Wellknown is especially the address to householders : A.N. 5.176 > PTS: A iii 206 ,... "Householder, you have provided the community > of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites > for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We > have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, > lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train > yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & > rapture.' That's how you should train yourself." > -------- N: But it is not a rule for everybody, it depends on accumulated inclinations. Thus, no self who thinks, I must first be calm before understanding can be developed. Then there is lobha creeping in again. D: I agree , not a rule for everybody but for those with relatively less dust in their eyes.Those know that within an environment of strong sensations the mind will be unable "to discern clearly the truth. They are: sensuous desire (kamacchanda),ill-will (vyapada),sloth and torpor (thina-middha),restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), and skeptical doubt (vicikiccha).In the beautiful similes in A.V.193, sensuous desire is compared with water mixed with manifold colours, ill-will with boiling water, sloth and torpor with water covered by moss, restlessness and scruples with agitated water whipped by the wind, skeptical doubt with turbid and muddy water. Just as in such water one cannot perceive one's own reflection, so in the presence of these 5 mental hindrances, one cannot clearly discern one's own benefit, nor that of others, nor that of both." (Buddh. Dict. nivarana) I think it is an error to suspect that any thought is a failure due to a mistaken self. Chanda comes into my mind .. N: In your other post you said also: No rule and there should not be a self who is wishing for calm or trying to have it. D: I think little by little (from time to time) one is trying to avoid the hectic environment in favor of a quit(er) place to allow contemplation . I avoid to say meditation as it seems that the term triggers opposition from some members.. correct is samadhi , as a collective for the Noble Path elements 6,7 and 8. N: By the way, in sutta translations I notice that right thought, sammaa vayaama is often translated as right intention. Intention is cetanaa. But it is not a factor of the eightfold Path. ------ D: to be considered: "1.Right view or right understanding (samma-ditthi) is the understanding of the 4 Noble Truths about the universality of suffering (unsatisfactoriness), of its origin, its cessation, and the path leading to that cessation. - See the Discourse on 'Right Understanding' (M. 9, tr. and Com. in 'R. Und.'). 2.Right thought (samma-sankappa): thoughts free from sensuous desire, from ill-will, and cruelty." (Buddh.Dict.) Please compare with kamma- patha :3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. The sila of wholesome (mental) action is an issue of intention, isn't it? Hence if the condition of understanding/view is right, there will be right thought..and this is matter of the 3fold Noble Path training 'Sila, Samadhi, Panna. N: Your sutta quote: "Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time." ----- N: Again, if someone is able to cultivate jhaana it is right and no misunderstandings at the time of the Buddha. But nowadays? ------ D: as you said: little by little ..and not expecting the perfection of the first Jhana. The point of tranquility or peace of mind is a process of development .. with right effort as a base as well for sati as for jhana. We certainly agree that householders have hardly the same chance of a forest monk to cultivate jhana .. but - to repeat- 'little by little ' with Metta Dieter #131299 From: han tun Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (18) - the END hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your very useful comments. I am also grateful for your kind words and encouragement. At the moment I want to take rest. I will write when I get better. with metta and respect, Han From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (18) - the END Dear Han, thank you very much. Lodewijk and I always found this sutta about the old brahmins very touching. I like your considerations afterwards. I hope you can continue, perhaps at a slower pace, once a week? > -------------------- N: Restraint in body, speech and mind, and this is indriya samvara siila. Through satipa.t.thaana there is the fulfilment of guarding the faculties, the senses of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Whatever appears through one of these six doorways can be known as just a reality, a dhamma. As has been stated in the parinibbaanasutta, through satipa.t.thaana there will be a true refuge. ------- N: I repeat what I wrote before in the "Cycle of Birth and Death": The Buddha accumulated pa~n~naa for countless aeons, and he developed the perfections, such as daana, siila, mettaa or patience. He was determined to develop them in order to reach Buddhahood, out of compassion for all of us. Had he not become an omniscient Buddha who could teach us all realities today, we would be ignorant and we would be enslaved, clinging forever to sights, sounds and all sense objects. ------ Nina. #131300 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:50 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hello Thomas > > > > Thomas: Tell us, what is Your paramattha dhammas that every one 'must' follow without any questions and discussions, and without any Pali suttas needed to support it? > > > > Tell "us" what paramattha dhammas are? > > If you don't know what they are, do some research. I won't coddle you. > > If you don't accept them, I recommend not expecting people in a group that was founded based on appreciation of paramattha dhammas to change their understanding. That's absurd. > > Phil > > P.s Earlier msg didn't show up, if it does you'll get a double dose. > --- Thomas: Do you mean you don't know what they are that everyone 'must' follow your Dhammas without any questions, and and without any Pali suttas needed to support it? -------- Thomas #131301 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:26 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi Thomas I mean it is clear to me that you are set in opposition to the founding principles of this group (see home page, all 3 baskets and commentary) so common sense dictates that you move on. But you will be coddled in the name of "diversity of views and tolerance" so you will stay and stay and stay. Search Paramatta dhammas under Google. I have to take care of around 100 students at work. I don't have enough milk to breast-feed you. Phil #131302 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:40 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hi Thomas > > I mean it is clear to me that you are set in opposition to the founding principles of this group (see home page, all 3 baskets and commentary) so common sense dictates that you move on. But you will be coddled in the name of "diversity of views and tolerance" so you will stay and stay and stay. > > Search Paramatta dhammas under Google. I have to take care of around 100 students at work. I don't have enough milk to breast-feed you. > > Phil > Thomas: You need to state your views, including your Dhammas, with the support of concrete details, not full of opinions and generalizations without factual details needed to support them. ------- Thomas #131303 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:47 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hello Thomas > > Thomas: You need to state your views, Ph: Incorrect. You are the interloper. But others will feed your needs, I'm sure. Phil including your Dhammas, with the support of concrete details, not full of opinions and generalizations without factual details needed to support them. > > ------- > > Thomas > #131304 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:58 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > ... Also: >> Phil: Search Paramatta dhammas under Google. I have to take care of around 100 students at work. I don't have enough milk to breast-feed you. Thomas: Do you think you are breast-feeding everyone here? Your language sounds insulting and arrogant. I suggest you need to remember to practice sammaavaaca `right speech'. This is very important for practising dhammas. Sammaavaaca is: "Abstaining (verama.nii) from lying speech (musaavaadaa), from defamatory speech (pisu.naaya vaacaaya), from abusive speech (pharusaaya vaacaaya), and abstaining from frivolous speech (samphappalaapaa)." If you still don't accept that is Buddhadhamma, search sammaavaaca under Google. ----------- Thomas #131305 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:11 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hello Thomas My point is that it is peculiar to come to this group and deny the validity of the teaching on paramattha dhammas. ( See home page.) But you are not the only one. Carry on, you will be catered to in the name of "right speech" and other vales that are clung to. Phil #131306 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: The problem is knowing exactly what is meant in the suttas by awareness/mindfulness. This I think would be a fruitful area for discussion. > > > > RE: Well that sounds both fruitful and fun. Why not take a look at the definitions/discussions of sati, sati sampajanna, satipatthana, panna, vipassana, etc., and see what the mechanism and specific elements are that support and condition and define different aspects of awareness/understanding/insight/wisdom. > > =============== > > J: Ahem What posts have you been reading during your 10+ years' membership of this list? Many of them. > Take any post by Nina, Sarah or any of several others and you'll find that what's being discussed is awareness and the conditions for its arising. Perhaps. In that sense everything we discuss is about awareness, what it is, and what causes it to arise, but it is handled from many different angles and the areas focused on can vary quite a bit too. In addition, there are different aspects of awareness and understanding such as plain old sati, satipatthana, panna/vipassana, sampajanna. I don't begin to understand the fine distinctions of all of them, 10 years or not. What I was suggesting is that there might be some specifically detailed material about the conditions for awareness that would get a little closer to understanding how different forms of kusala impact the arising of awareness and development of understanding. I don't think it's clear, since there are many questions about the role of other parts of the teachings other than direct understanding itself. Obviously there are lots of details I don't know. Just looking for some of them that talk directly about what impacts development of awareness and understanding in various forms. Most of the discussions about this are general, though there are technical discussions of different aspects too. > Other sources include any of Nina's writings (all available as pdf downloads from zolag.co.uk) and most of the messages in the Useful Posts but especially those under headings like Awareness, Sati/Satipatthana, Abhidhamma and Right Understanding, Paramattha, etc. Okay. Really just looking for *a* clear discussion of the process, without necessarily sifting through every post ever written. But I take your point that many such discussions of one kind or another are available. I would like to find something from commentary though that is technically clear, even though I might not understand all of it. > > =============== > > RE: The commentaries and sub-commentaries probably say a lot on these subjects, if you have them available. Hey - maybe someone can send me a complete copy of all the Abhidhamma commentaries and sub-commentaries in English so I can follow along...? :-) [My wife will throw me out, but I guess I could hide them in the basement, now that we have a house.] > > =============== > > J: Unfortunately only a select few of the Abhidhamma commentaries are available in English translation. Most of these are published by the PTS and can be ordered on-line. > > > =============== > > > J: My suggestion would be, less talk about how to `practice' and more discussion about dhammas and their characteristics. > > > > RE: I'm happy to spend some time on such discussion with or without respect to so-called practice, since I know you don't believe there is anything to practice. But at some point we can talk about bhavana and how exactly it takes place with respect to the various factors. > > =============== > > J: I'm quite happy to talk about `bhavana' any time because it is (or it represents) a conditioned dhamma. That is true of everything, but doesn't say much about it itself, or how it develops. > > =============== > > > J: In my view, there can be no benefit from a `practice' if there's no clear intellectual understanding of the nature of conditioned dhammas and, in particular, of the awareness or understanding that is being spoken of by the Buddha. > > > > RE: Ready to go! Hope I don't regret such a commitment as worldly activities are constantly assaulting me... > > =============== > > J: Worldly activities and obligations are not the problem; once one realises what's truly unique and significant about the Buddha's teaching, certain other areas of interest become less attractive. Like paying the mortgage? I wouldn't exactly call what I have in mind areas of interest. Responsibilities are just there for householders, as you know, and can be incessant at times. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #131307 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:20 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hello Thomas > > My point is that it is peculiar to come to this group and deny the validity of the teaching on paramattha dhammas. ( See home page.) But you are not the only one. Carry on, you will be catered to in the name of "right speech" and other vales that are clung to. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and keep complaining about how the game is being played. Why not correct such wrong views through the clarity of your teaching, rather than complain complain complain about people having views you don't appreciate that are the results of conditions anyway and can't be helped. Sarah said the same to you recently but you just can't seem to help yourself. Conditions again I guess, so who cares? Did it ever occur to you that people come to dsg due to conditions also and that they are supposed to be there? It's vipaka isn't it? Can someone choose to ignore their kamma and choose a different vipaka? Can you? Your unpleasant vipaka is to have to listen to a bunch of idiots who spout wrong view all the time. May as well see the nature of those dhammas rather than complain all day long. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #131308 From: "azita" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:21 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts gazita2002 Hallo RobE, > > Jon: Worldly activities and obligations are not the problem; once one realises what's truly unique and significant about the Buddha's teaching, certain other areas of interest become less attractive. > > Like paying the mortgage? I wouldn't exactly call what I have in mind areas of interest. Responsibilities are just there for householders, as you know, and can be incessant at times. > > Best, > Rob E. Azita: I get the feeling that you just haven't yet got the link between everyday life e.g., paying your mortgage, maybe feeling stressed about where the money's coming from etc and the fact that there are conditioned parramattha dhammas arising and falling again and again as 'we' go about our daily lives. What else is there? Is there not visible object appearing when 'you' look at your mortgage papers? Or rather, there is only visible object and because of various conditions-ignorance being a big factor- we take it for paper or whatever. Unless there is,however weak, right understanding from the very beginning of 'studying' dhammas, there will never be a clear way to know realities. No amount of commentary or sutta study will help unless there is knowing that all there is, is citta, cetasika and rupa - the five khandhas arising and passing away. With every arising moment the last moment has gone already, never to arise again. Conditioned dhammas is all there is!!!! patience, courage and good cheer, which could be translated as Khanti, viriya, metta azita #131309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 16-jun-2013, om 19:55 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: I wonder what is the difference between developing the > perfections and developing all kinds of kusala? ----- N: Same. All kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind. The perfections remind us of specofo aspects of all kinds of kusala and this is most helpful. For each kind of kusala patience, determination, renunciation, etc. are needed. We read in the Perfections, on siila, (Aki.t.thi): < Here we see that the kusala he performed at those times were actually the perfections of generosity, dna, of morality, sla, of renunciation, nekkhamma, of patience, khanti, of energy, viriya, of determination or steadfastness, adihna, and of truthfulness, sacca, that is, sincerity in the performing of kusala. He fulfilled the perfections in order to attain Buddhahood. All perfections are interrelated and they support one another.> ------ Nina. #131310 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. sarahprocter... Dear Dieter (Han, Phil & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > you wrote: > Just read the Sutta Han (AN 6:46, Mahaacunda Sutta) quoted with the following at the end: > > sikkhitabbaṃ > > "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are > Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? > Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of > the deathless element (Nibbaana). > > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves > are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And > why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom > clearly understand a difficult subject." > > > D: Satu! This is good and fitting quotation , Sarah. A good reminder for those , who prefer DSG limited to Abhidhamma discussion (respectively their interpretation of it ) and do not seek a common understanding , which - e.g. by above- we are requested to train ourselves. ... S: Here are some further comments on this same sutta I wrote quite a long time ago #33934: >S:What is interesting is that when we look at the wording and the commentary notes, it becomes apparent that both groups are ariyan disciples (i.e at least sotapannas). The first group have become enlightened without the development of jhanas and the second group with jhanas. ... >Sarah: When we first read it, we may appreciate the reminders for tolerance and respect and wise speech in regard to those who appear to follow different paths. We also note how useless bickering and disparaging others are. How easily these can lead to pride and 'puffing-up'. These are useful reminders at any level, for sure! When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'. If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and commentary notes, I think. The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group of 'meditators' refers those who have attained jhanas. Obviously neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any dispute! From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group, the 'meditators' have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) "penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana). So both groups are enlightened but presumably only the second group have attained jhanas. Obviously there is no suggestion that for the first group this is merely an intellectual approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment should be highly respected.< ***** >S: So there were disputes even during the Buddha's life between different groups of ariyan disciples, I think. And so who are we that we could possibly be beyond having disputes of any kind? >Any noble or wholesome qualities should be praised and respected and no one has suggested that jhana attainment or the development of samatha should not be included in this.< (end old post) ..... Metta Sarah ===== #131311 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:12 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... ptaus1 Hi RobE, Phil and Thomas, Could I please remind everyone about the DSG guidelines, i.e. staying friendly, pleasant, tolerant, avoiding sarcasm, personal remarks, etc. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DSG%20Guidelines.htm In cases when there's no time to address the actual Dhamma issue, Useful Posts file can often help: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm E.g. on the subject of paramattha dhammas that Thomas raised, there are many related sub-headings in the Useful Posts - Paramattha dhamma 1 and 2, Realities, etc. Taking the first post out of the sub-heading Realities: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/56830 The post already contains two quotes from suttas on the subject of dhammas existing, etc. Perhaps a place to start... Best wishes pt > ...complain complain complain... #131312 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, > >>KH: ... a Theravada discussion. ... when we talk about dhammas that exist > absolutely (in ultimate reality) we *are* following the Pali texts. > > >>Thomas: It would be good if you could indicate which Pali sutta (s) you refer > to? <...> > Thomas: I really do not think you had, and are able to find any Pali suttas suitably and sufficiently to support your Dhammas. .... S: The following which I quoted recently from an old post may help: .Rob Ed: "Are you perhaps referring to paramattha sacca (truth in the highest sense)? If so, I would agree that this term is absent in the Suttas, though I would suggest that the notion is present. That is to say, the idea that something may be true conventionally but not ultimately is inferrable from the Suttas, even though it is expressed in different terms. "What the Commentaries call conventional truth (sammuti-sacca), the Suttas call 'worldly consensus' (lokasamaa), 'worldly language' (lokanirutti), 'worldly usage' (lokavohaara), or 'worldly convention' (lokapaatti). "What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha-sacca) Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato thetato). E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." (Yamaka Sutta) ... S: Let's look at the very first sutta in MN, the Muulapariyaaya Sutta. This is "The Exposition of the Root of All Things" (sabbadhammamuulapariyaaya). Here sabba dhamma refers to all the khandhas of clinging (pa~cupaadaanakkhandhaa). Dhammas here, as confirmed by the commentary, refers to those dhmmas with sabhava (specific nature). "This is the word-meaning: 'they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas; (attano lakkha.na.m dhaarentii ti dhammaa).' (Bodhi transl.) Re-quoting from an old message of mine on this topic: >S: 'Things with a specific nature' are dhatus, khandhas with characterisitics, functions, proximate causes and characteristics. They are involved in processes of experiences and arise and fall away. Nama dhammas can experience objects in the sense-door and mind-door processes while rupas can only ever be experienced. <....> As the commentary above continues to stress: 'They bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas' (attano lakkha.na'm dhaarentii ti dhamma).It continues to stress that this is said to show that they are 'mere dhammas' (or 'bare dhammas'), 'devoid of such attributions as that of a 'being', etc.' In other words, unless they are known as dhammas, we will continue in our delusion to take people, computers or cars to act, rather than namas. As the text continues: "Whereas such entities as self, beauty, pleasurableness, and permanence, etc, or nature (pakati), substance (dabba), soul (jiiva), body, etc,which are mere misconstructions (parikappitaakaaramatta) due to craving and views, or such entities as 'sky-flowers', etc, which are mere expressions of conventional discourse (lokavohaaramatta), cannot be discovered as ultimately real actualities (saccika.t.thaparamatthato), these dhammas (i.e. those endowed with a specific nature) can. These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities."< **** Whatever sutta we read, it is about dhammas, ultimate realities. This is the Teaching of the Buddha. The only way to prove it, however, is by beginning to understand what is real at this very moment. Metta Sarah ====== #131313 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. philofillet Hi Nina > > Ph: I wonder what is the difference between developing the > > perfections and developing all kinds of kusala? > ----- > N: Same. Thanks. I have had the feeling that with the Perfections there is the feeling of being developed over many lifetimes. But that is just a story. This moment of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, does kusala arise in response? Probably not. We have to be honest about how little kusala there is in a day . But we know it is possible to develop the Perfections, it is possible otherwise the Buddha wouldn't have encouraged us to avoid evil and do good. Phil #131314 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:44 pm Subject: Re: the four right efforts, transcript. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Nina, Han & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Indeed, there *can* be moments of reflecting on the harm of akusala and those moments *can* condition the arising of moments of intention not to have akusala. But people aren't content with *can* , they build practices based on should, based in greed for progress. > > I like the suggestion at the beginning that reflecting on avoid evil, do good is probably good enough. The Dhamma is far more profound than people like to think. ... S: I agree with your comments. While I was looking in AN for one of the suttas Han recently quoted, I came across AN 5s, 74(4). "One Who Dwells in the Dhamma (2)" A bhikkhu asks the Buddha:"In what way is a bhikkhu one who dwells in the Dhamma?" The Buddha replies that a bhikkhu may learn the Dhamma - "the discourses, mixed prose and verse, expositions, verses, inspired utterances, quotations, birth stories, amazing accounts, and questions and answers - but he does ot go further and understand its meaning with wisdom. (uttari.m c'assa pa~n~naaya attha.m nappajaanaati. Mp: 'Beyond his learning, he does not understand the meaning of that Dhamma by path wisdom together with insight; he does not see and penetrate the four [noble] truths."). This is called a bhikkhu who is absorbed in learning, ot one who dwells in the Dhamma." The Buddha then goes on to talk about the one who teaches the Dhamma to others in detail, "a bhikkhu who is absorbed in communication, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". Then there is the one who recites in detail, "absorbed in recitation" and the one who "ponders, examines, and mentally inspects the Dhamma" but is just "absorbed int thought". The Buddha says he has taught all of these kinds of bhikkhus, but there are are some who learn the Dhamma - the discourses and all the other parts of the Teachings - but who go on to understand the meaning with wisdom. Such a one is "a bhikkhu who dwells in the Dhamma." As we are always reminded, the Dhamma is not "in the book" - meaning it's not just for book knowledge, but for the direct understanding of the realities appearing now which have been pointed out to us by the Buddha. Metta Sarah ======= #131315 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:52 pm Subject: Re: the four right efforts, transcript. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > AS: Yes. It's thinking because there's thinking all the time, but thinking about > akusala in many, many aspects, this and that, but when it's thinking about > kusala, it can be thinking of not having akusala. > Does this mean thinking about the dangers of subtle akusala as well as the dangers of gross akusala? For example, thinking about the dangers of lobha involved in what we take to be good deeds? ... S: It just depends on conditions what the thinking is about. There can be thinking of subtle or gross akusala with more akusala or with kusala. Whatever the reality, whatever the thinking, it can be known as dhamma, conditioned reality. Otherwise, we set rules again or there's an idea of what may be known instead of just understanding what appears now. ... >If we were too concerned about that we would never do such an act as giving to a monk for example if we were always worried about desire for good results to come from it. ... S: Always thinking of 'me', worrying about 'me' and 'my kusala' or 'my akusala' at such times instead of developing understanding with detachment from whatever appears now. Metta Sarah ==== #131316 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:08 pm Subject: Re: Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (18) - the END sarahprocter... Dear Partner Han, Thank you for your excellent presentation of the suttas. I agree that the last one includes many good reminders as in the verses at the end: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > 30. An Island of Refuge [AN 3.52 Pa.thamadvebraahma.na sutta, AN 3.53 Dutiyadvebraahma.na sutta] <...> > Life is swept away, brief is our span of years, > There are no shelters for one who has reached old age. > Perceiving the peril that lurks in death, > Perform good deeds that entail happiness. > > When one is restrained in body, > Restrained by speech and by mind, > The deeds of merit one did while alive > Bring happiness when one departs. > > When a house is burning, the goods removed from it, > Will be of use, but not what burns inside. > Thus, in this world aflame with age and death, > Save what you own by liberality > Your goods given, are well removed and safe. > > When one is restrained in body, > Restrained by speech and by mind, > The deeds of merit one did while alive > Bring happiness when one departs. ... S: I know you appreciate this very much. While still alive, there are always opportunities for kusala of all kinds - even now! And from your quote at the end from the Mahaanaama Sutta: <...>This is called a noble disciple who dwells > evenly amidst an uneven generation, who dwells unafflicted amidst an afflicted generation, who has entered upon the stream of the Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha." > > I wish you all the best of health and happiness. ... S: May we all learn to live "evenly" amongst "an uneven generation", "unafflicted amidst an afflicted generation". Also wishing you courage, health and wisdom ! Metta & Respect Sarah ==== #131317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quote from Survey. 2. nilovg Dear Sarah, I am glad you mentioned the commentary, it is very clear. Nina Op 17-jun-2013, om 9:51 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > So both groups are enlightened but presumably only the second group > have > attained jhanas. Obviously there is no suggestion that for the > first group > this is merely an intellectual approach. > > How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have > jhana > experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment > should be highly respected. #131318 From: han tun Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Selected Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya (18) - the END hantun1 Dear Partner Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind words and useful comments. with metta and respect, Han From: sarah sarahprocterabbott@... Dear Partner Han, Thank you for your excellent presentation of the suttas. I agree that the last one includes many good reminders as in the verses at the end: S: I know you appreciate this very much. While still alive, there are always opportunities for kusala of all kinds - even now! And from your quote at the end from the Mahaanaama Sutta: <...>This is called a noble disciple who dwells > evenly amidst an uneven generation, who dwells unafflicted amidst an afflicted generation, who has entered upon the stream of the Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha." > > I wish you all the best of health and happiness. ... S: May we all learn to live "evenly" amongst "an uneven generation", "unafflicted amidst an afflicted generation". Also wishing you courage, health and wisdom ! Metta & Respect Sarah ==== #131319 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:46 pm Subject: TA on not understanding sprlrt (Than Acharn, Wong Nam Khiew, 17th, am, 1m) M: I wonder if we could speak a bit today about characteristic of the reality that appears. TA: ... now. M: When we talk about the characteristic of lobha... TA: Is there any characteristic appearing now? M: Yes. TA: (Is there) knowing about its characteristic as a reality, not self? M: I think there is, , like when we say clinging... TA: After seeing. M: It seems to be like a feeling. TA: You mean attachment is like feeling? M: Yes. TA: Because of the word feeling that we used to... M: No, because of the experience that attachment seems to... TA: Ok, what feeling is now? what kind of feeling is now? M: Like clinging, like holding... TA: No, because even clinging does not appear, and feeling does not appear either; so you just think about whether clinging is like feeling, but actually, since feeling is not the object of right understanding, and clinging is not object of right understanding, so now there is thinking whether they are alike. M: So, at the moment of thinking about clinging, TA: What about the feeling, there is feeling, M: Yes, and the feeling that arises... TA: With thinking, M: With thinking, can only be pleasant or unpleasant of neutral. TA: You mean what arises, attachment or feeling? M: It *seems* as if there is a feeling of not wanting to let go, holding on to what is seen or... things like that. TA: It seems like that the object you would like to hold holds on forever, but it's only thinking; there should be the precise object, one at a time, to be known, as it clings to that; for example, seeing right now, no understanding that there is clinging to it, but *thinking* that it clings. M: Ok, There is *thinking* about the object. TA: There is clinging to visible object, but actually the clinging itself does not appear. M: Thank you, that's really what I meant to clarify. So when we are talking about clinging, what are we talking about? TA: A reality, which is unknown, everything is unknown right now; like chicks in their shells: not strong enough to break the shell, and what is meant by what is in the shell - ignorance; so we're like chicks, in the dark - ignorance, in the shell. When there is no understanding of anything at all, is the chick happy in the shell, inside the shell? M: Seems to be. TA: Yes, like at moment of not understanding reality as it is, because even pleasant feeling's very short, but desire and attachment is there, all the time, clinging to that very short..., and it just appears and disappears; covered up, the truth is covered by ignorance, that's why one learns to understand whatever appears, not to have ignorance about it. It's like trying to solve problems, one's own problems, or the group's, or nation or Country; what about citta at that very moment, is it solved, from being unwholesome to wholesome? it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any problem solving, not at all, but actually (there) should, with kusala citta only, without (it is) akusala citta, it's exactly the same, like (one's) problem, of others, of the world, or of the Country. So the best thing in one's life is to understand the meaning of lone world and citta, an element which experiences an object, it's conditioned to arise, no matter it's kusala, or akusala, or vipaka, or kiriya, whatever it is, until it's known as not self; don't think of trying to have no akusala at all: it's impossible; the first thing is to understand, so that there is no more ignorance and wrong understanding, that's all; and then pa~n~na works its way, on and on and on, to the end, but first of all there should be right understanding, just to replace ignorance and wrong understanding. So it's only thinking and thinking about visible object and attachment and so on, or about paccaya or anything, but it's now at this moment, the more we understand realities, the more we can understand everything which is taught; otherwise is one's own idea about this or that after reading just one short term or sentence, or only a sutta, or a book, or whatever. Is hardness Khun Maeve? Why we can't say that no hardness can be Khun Maeve? but without hardness no idea about that at all, without citta, cetasikas - no being, only short dreams, very short, and bhavangas in between; so where is yesterday, where is all that happened yesterday; it continues from the day before yesterday, and yesterday, and tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow, exactly the same, in the shell; is there any hole for light? #131320 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:02 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 38. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5, `Momentary death' (cont'd): Sometimes people asked what the conditions are for sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana, thus, for sati which is mindful of naama and ruupa. We read in the Visuddhimagga (Ch XIV, 141) that its proximate cause is strong remembrance (thirasa~n~naa) or the four "Applications of Mindfulness" [9]. Firm remembrance of the reality right now conditions satipa.t.thaana. If we forget that there are now only realities there are no conditions for the arising of satipa.t.thana. There is not sufficient understanding of anattaa to condition right awareness now. The four "Applications of Mindfulness" include all naamas and ruupas that can be the objects of mindfulness. When they have become the objects of sati they are a proximate cause of mindfulness. Naama and ruupa occurring in daily life are the objects of mindfulness. There can be awareness of naama and ruupa no matter whether we are walking, standing, sitting of lying down. Also when akusala citta arises it can be object of mindfulness, it is classified under the "Application of Mindfulness of Citta". One should learn not to take akusala citta for self. Several times Acharn reminded us that the lack of awareness was caused because there was not firm remembrance (thirasa~n~naa) of what we heard. When one listens to the Dhamma and considers it again and again there can be firm remembrance of what one has heard, and, thus, there are conditions for the arising of sati which is mindful of the naama or ruupa appearing at the present moment. Thus, we see the value of listening. We listen but we often forget what we heard. We ought to listen more, it never is enough. Acharn's reminder that today will be yesterday tomorrow is an exhortation not to waste away our short time in this world as humans where we can still listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding. How fast time goes, before we realize it there will be the dying-consciousness, and we do not know our future. [9] As explained in the "Satipa.t.thaana Sutta", they are: mindfulness of body, of feeling, of citta and of dhammas. (To be continued) #131321 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:32 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... truth_aerator Dear Phil, all, >My point is that it is peculiar to come to this group and deny the >validity of the teaching on paramattha dhammas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is interesting is that Buddha (as recorded in Tipitaka, including Abhidhamma) DID NOT TEACH on paramattha dhammas. Interesting, is that he refused to declare many questions, including that "self doesn't exist" (natthatta). The strange part is that some people emphasis at every opportunity teachings that Buddha has avoided answering as much as possible. With best wishes, Alex #131322 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:04 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi Alex > >My point is that it is peculiar to come to this group and deny the >validity of the teaching on paramattha dhammas. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > What is interesting is that Buddha (as recorded in Tipitaka, including Abhidhamma) DID NOT TEACH on paramattha dhammas. Ph: Fine. So is if you are a) interested in the Buddha's teaching and b) convinced that what is valued by the teaching valued by this group were not taught by the Buddha, why do you stay here. That is what is baffling to me. I can't imagine myself, for example, continuing to post year after year at a Mahasi group website trying to convince them that eating in slow motion is moronic. I would just leave them in my rear view mirror. But actually it's not baffling while you stay here. People are nice to you. If you believe in the importance of seclusion praised by the Buddha, why don't you put it into practice? Because you need someone to be nice to you. We all do. That's why I am here too. Clinging to being treated nicely. Otherwise I would just listen to the recorded talks (which I find most valuable) and you would be secluded off somewhere not actually meditating. Defilements rule, we do not have the accumulations of wisdom and other kusala of the cittas described in the suttanta. But guys on the Internet sure do love talking about their fave suttas! So deep!!!! So stay on and on and on repeating the same complaints again and again and again, and so will I, driven by kilesas, behaving beyond control. Phil > > Interesting, is that he refused to declare many questions, including that "self doesn't exist" (natthatta). > > The strange part is that some people emphasis at every opportunity teachings that Buddha has avoided answering as much as possible. > > With best wishes, > > Alex > #131323 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:16 am Subject: Re: the four right efforts, transcript. philofillet Hi Sarah > ... > S: It just depends on conditions what the thinking is about. There can be thinking of subtle or gross akusala with more akusala or with kusala. Whatever the reality, whatever the thinking, it can be known as dhamma, conditioned reality. Otherwise, we set rules again or there's an idea of what may be known instead of just understanding what appears now. Ph: Or deciding what *can't* be known, which it is good to remember is is just as much mana (conceit) as being greedy about what one decides can be known. Always the self getting in the way of the natural, gradual development if understanding. We are so lucky to have a wise friend in Ajahn Sujin to make this clear. (And other accumulations must be there, others listen and just hear rubbish) > >If we were too concerned about that we would never do such an act as giving to a monk for example if we were always worried about desire for good results to come from it. > ... > S: Always thinking of 'me', worrying about 'me' and 'my kusala' or 'my akusala' at such times instead of developing understanding with detachment from whatever appears now. > Ph: And if we expect this to change it will just be self and greed (lobha with ditthi) getting in the way again, trying to have detachment. It's a long, gradual process. No other way, all shortcuts are lobha. Phil #131324 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:49 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... moellerdieter Hi Phil, you wrote to Alex: (A: What is interesting is that Buddha (as recorded in Tipitaka, including Abhidhamma) DID NOT TEACH on paramattha dhammas.) Ph: Fine. So is if you are a) interested in the Buddha's teaching and b) convinced that what is valued by the teaching valued by this group were not taught by the Buddha, why do you stay here. That is what is baffling to me. I can't imagine myself, for example, continuing to post year after year at a Mahasi group website trying to convince them that eating in slow motion is moronic. I would just leave them in my rear view mirror. But actually it's not baffling while you stay here. People are nice to you. If you believe in the importance of seclusion praised by the Buddha, why don't you put it into practice? Because you need someone to be nice to you. We all do. That's why I am here too. Clinging to being treated nicely. Otherwise I would just listen to the recorded talks (which I find most valuable) and you would be secluded off somewhere not actually meditating. Defilements rule, we do not have the accumulations of wisdom and other kusala of the cittas described in the suttanta. But guys on the Internet sure do love talking about their fave suttas! So deep!!!! So stay on and on and on repeating the same complaints again and again and again, and so will I, driven by kilesas, behaving beyond control. D: it seems to be very difficult for you to understand what Sarah pointed out to you recently: "S: And that's the problem, the "not getting it", the being annoyed and disturbed by what others write, rather than seeing that the problem always comes back to 'one's own' akusala citta now - the attachment and aversion now. I feel very fortunate to have had this point stressed so much by A.Sujin. Whilst one complains about everyone else, one completely forgets about paramattha dhammas, conditioned realities. At such times, there is no understanding at all of what the Buddha taught in any part of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries. The Teachings are always about 'now', about the citta now! If we just repeat what we've heard about namas and rupas, about ultimate realities, about khandhas, ayatanas and so on, but never develop the courage and truthfulness to understand what is real, what is the problem now, any understanding remains at a very superficial level as I see it. You have a lot to contribute, Phil and I'm sure everyone appreciates your helpful discussions with Nina and others. I really don't think anyone would be reading/writing here if they weren't interested to understand more about what the Buddha really taught. But it's not easy at all, as the Buddha said himself" unquote You may have a lot to contribute but obviously you spoil it by wrong speech . Instead of showing Alex (evidence of ) the connection with the Buddha Dhamma , you push yourself to the fore , taking the moderator's role of which nobody has appointed you. I wonder when you may recognize the state of unwholesome mental factors (akusala cetasikas) and the need to put on the brake towards your impulsivity. well mentioned , Dieter #131325 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:55 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance...previous message to Phil moellerdieter Hi Phil , again, sorry , please replace well- mentioned .. by well- meant , well -intentioned with Metta Dieter #131326 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:26 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... truth_aerator Hello Phil, all, >Phil: why do you stay here. If I were healthy, I wouldn't. I'd be blissing out in meditation. Unfortunately I am not gifted in samatha and my pain interferes. Alex #131327 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:17 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi Dieter and Alex That's fine. No doubt all critics are well-intentioned, and even if not the not-well intentioned dhammas are fleeting and not indicative of a nasty character. There's a lot of good content at DSG for me these days I can probably ignore the rest. Well, technically speaking lobha has a lot of good stuff to feed on. That leads to the conditioning of dosa which will be strong enough on occasion to spark bad behaviour. Less of it? Hopefully. But I can't simplify choose not to participate at DSG the way offers/have. You guys know about popular interpretations of Dhamma so hopefully you can reflect on how people who perform akusala kamma patha through speech are just harming themselves, so to speak. Phil #131328 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:19 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi again Correction. The way others do/have. Phil #131329 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:27 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi Alex. I'm sorry you have pain. And I am writing this because it is the proper thing to do. Both are true. Different moments, different javana impulses. And again sorry you have pain. And now a moment of feeling contented to have thought so. Too many impulses and far too brief to know exactly what is going on behind our behaviour. Anyways sorry you have pain. Phil #131330 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:54 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... truth_aerator Dear Phil, Thank you for your kind words. With best wishes, Alex #131331 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:08 am Subject: Re: From Bangkok philofillet Dear group A very good letter from Robert K from the Useful Posts file. I particularly liked this last bit: " There is only this moment and it can become habitual to investigate it. Hard to do so though without the idea of self. We have to see for ourselves whether it can be done. The dfference between understanding at levels of thiking and at levels of direct understanding can be known too. It is not a fast process I think. Better to go in the right direction slowly though than the wrong one quickly." Ph: "It can become habitual to investigate it (the present moment.) " I like that wording very much. It is possible that investigation of dhammas becomes habitual. How rare, though, are the moments when self is not trying, when it's not my panna for my progress on the path. But that can be understood. (Note that understanding that self is trying doesn't make the trying valid or helpful. Meditators seem to feel that as long as they understand that there is greed for progress at work there is no problem with that greed.) Please enjoy the whole letter. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, robertkirkpatrick@... wrote: > > Dear Group, > Just finished lunch with Acharn sujin, Amara and her mother, Betty, > Sukin, Bruce, Ivan, Erik, Shin, my chidren, and others. We were at > the Royal Bangkok Sports Cub (as the guests of Amara's mother). > There was delicious food and pleasnt conversation. > That was the story. > > We discussed the nature of the moment. In truth there was no > luncheon, no sports club, no robert, too. Usuallly we live in this > world of concepts and stories about life, thinking we are doing this > or that. But what is there is only these insignificant dhammas . > Understanding them means there is a breaking down of the 'whole'. > There was a small tropical storm that we could see outside the room > where we later discussed some more. In truth no storm but only seeing > arising conditioned by visible object and then thinking processes > that form up concepts. Panna can see the difference between > paramattha dhammas and concepts and panna comes always associated > with a level of detachment. Even when we discuss the dhamma we may > have attachment to some idea -and if it is not seen as attachment (a > dhamma that obscures) one will accumulate more attachment to that > idea. > Acharn Sujin noted how the understanding must be very firm so that > all namas (mental phenomena) are known as simply nama (not self). > There is not my dosa or my lobha or my wisdom or my seeing- they are > all simply nama dhamma. > Panna can understand too that moments of vipaka (result of past kamma) > seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling are different from > moments during which thinking, attachemnt, understanding, or > ignorance etc, arise. > We spoke about how no one can stop the next moment arising. No one > can decide that the next moment should be sound or colour, seeing or > hearing , or feeling, or thinking. we might worry what the next > life will be, or we might have attachment to an idea of being born in > a good place. However,now there is dukkha, again and again we are > opressed by these different objects. It is by seeing dukkha that is > occuring now that next life can be understood. And the more this is > known the more there is detachemnt from the idea of a self who is > reborn. There is only this moment and it can become habitual to > investigate it. > Hard to do so though without the idea of self. We have to see for > ourselves whether it can be done. The dfference between understanding > at levels of thiking and at levels of direct understanding can be > known too. It is not a fast process I think. Better to go in the > right direction slowly though than the wrong one quickly. > robert > Ps, Very nice to meet everyone and thanks for the party on saturday > Erik. > ert > #131332 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:18 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, ---- >KH: ... a Theravada discussion. ... when we talk about dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality) we *are* following the Pali texts. > >Thomas: It would be good if you could indicate which Pali sutta (s) you refer to? > > Thomas: I really do not think you had, and are able to find any Pali suttas suitably and sufficiently to support your Dhammas. ... > S: The following which I quoted recently from an old post may help: Rob Ed: "Are you perhaps referring to paramattha sacca (truth in the highest sense)? If so, I would agree that this term is absent in the Suttas, though I would suggest that the notion is present. That is to say,the idea that something may be true conventionally but not ultimately is inferrable from the Suttas, even though it is expressed in different terms. "What the Commentaries call conventional truth (sammuti-sacca), E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." (Yamaka Sutta) ... ... 'Things with a specific nature' are dhatus, khandhas with characterisitics, functions, proximate causes and characteristics. in processes of experiences and arise and fall away.... ------- Thank you very much for your reply indeed. Having read your posting carefully, I confirm that the Pali suttas do not actually record the Buddha as saying "dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality)". The term, paramattha sacca `truth in the ultimate meaning' (or "truth in the highest sense") mentioned in the Commentaries is not found in the suttas. However, the meaning is surely in the suttas. That is, "dhammas (phenomena, such as the sense spheres, the khandhas) are impermanent, empty of self or of anything belonging to self". Note: it does not mean "dhammas that exist absolutely (in ultimate reality)"; it means `self' does not exist in those phenomena, which is the so-called paramattha sacca in the Commentaries. Also, the notion of paramattha sacca explained in your reply here is very similar to "the Discourse on Emptiness in its Ultimate Meaning" in one of the Samyukta-agama texts: SA 335, which, however, has no Pali counterpart (See, Choong Mun-keat, 2000. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 95-6). Regards, Thomas #131333 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hello Thomas > > My point is that it is peculiar to come to this group and deny the validity of the teaching on paramattha dhammas. ( See home page.) But you are not the only one. Carry on, you will be catered to in the name of "right speech" and other vales that are clung to. > > Phil > ------ Your point??? I really do not see your point. Thomas #131334 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:43 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi Thomas > ------ > > Your point??? I really do not see your point. > Hmmm...that's strange. (M_L)U It was utterly clear to me! Never mind, carry on. Phil #131335 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Dieter and Ann, 2. sarahprocter... Dear Gregory, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory E. LeBlanc" wrote: > > yes, thank you, very clear. everything is dukkha beacasue everything is > changing...everything of NAMA and RUPA, which is everything... > > what do you think is quantifiably different from this approach as > opposed to "noting" (both seem to derive from Burmese Buddhism) . the > result seems to me to be the same; in one you are a passive observer > (watching a play) of the NAMA and RUPA, and in the other you are noting > NAMA and RUPA (seeing, hearing, thinking, etc...)? .... S: The development of understanding of realities - i.e. the presently appearing nama or rupa - is not an "approach". It is the understanding of these dhammas as anatta, as taught by the Buddha. It's the very opposite to the idea of being "a passive observer" or "noter', because when there is the idea of observing or noting or paying special attention, it is all done with the idea of a Self, not the understanding of no-self at all. The development of understanding has to grow with detachment, detachment from results, from wishing to observe or note or be mindful of any thing. Please let me know whether this makes any sense. Important points to discuss further. Metta Sarah > > S: Seeing consciousness, hearing, sound, attachment, wisdom - all > > conditioned dhammas arise and fall way are therefore inherently > > unsatisfactory, not worth clinging to. > > > > It is because of tanha, clinging to that which is unsatisfactory > > (dukkha), that the rounds of birth and death continue on and on, from > > moment to moment, life to life. Because of clinging and ignorance, > > there is kamma, which brings results by way of birth, seeing, hearing > > and so on. More clinging, more kamma, more results. > <....> > #131336 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:36 pm Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > S: We have a different understanding here. Computer ad concepts are not dhammas (realities or phenomena), arisen by causal condition, pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa. > > > > The dhammas that are conditioned are the khandhas, i.e. cittas, cetasikas and rupas only. > > > > They are the "all" that exist, apart from the unconditioned nibbana. > > T: According to the teachings of "pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa" or "pa.tccasamuppaada", they (khandhas, or cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or Computer, concepts) are phenomena (dhammaa). ... S: I gave you a quote yesterday from the Mulapariyaya Sutta with commentary notes which make it clear that "computer", "flowers" and "people" are imagined concepts, conventionally used ideas thought about. They are not the realities/phenomena (dhammaa) included in paticca-samuppannaa dhammaa. If you wish to give a quote suggesting otherwise, please go ahead and we can discuss it further. ... > > They all are arisen by causal condition. Nibbana refers to the cessation of dukkha (suffering) or of asavana (influxes) > > ------ ... S: Each of the khandhas arises by conditions. Nibbana is the unconditioned element. Computers are not elements or khandhas, therefore they are not conditioned. They don't exist in reality. Metta Sarah ===== #131337 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:46 pm Subject: Re: Poor Venerable Aananda! To Han Tun puthujjana - The Middle Way sarahprocter... Hi Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: - > > S: ... all dhammas (apart from nibbana)... > > T: No, it is not 'apart from nibbana.' It should include nibbana in that context. Nibbana refers to the cessation of dukkha (suffering) or asavana (influxes) in Early Buddhism. ... S: When the text is specifically referring to conditioned dhammas, ( here: "the noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena."), nibbana is not included. ... > > S: ... I like the way it is stressed earlier in the sutta that "whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality." > > > > T: It should mean: " ... this 'constancy of phenomena' (dhamma.t.thitataa), this 'certainty of phenomena' (dhammaniyaamataa), this 'causal relatedness' (idappaccayataa)." (The Fundamental Teaching of Early Buddhism, p. 153). .... S: In brief it means that dhammas arise by conditions and in a particular manner, regardless of whether a Buddha arises and teaches the Truth or not. Metta Sarah ==== > #131338 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... Sarah/Ken (all) sarahprocter... Dear Tony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > >Tony: Nothing exists independently and is therefore lacking any inherent existence. > > >Sarah: What do you mean by "nothing"? Can you give some examples. > > Hi Sarah, I love that question :))) brightened up my morning...I can't really give you an example of No(thing). In context I meant exactly what I wrote...'nothing' excluding nothing, leaving nothing out etc... :) .... S: Glad to have brightened up your day:-)) Let's see if I can do it again!! I ask for a lot of clarifications. Grateful if you could keep these very simple and in your own words! So you would say here that 'heat' is included in 'nothing'. You'd also say 'cooker' is included in 'nothing'. So you would say 'heat' does not exist independently and therefore heat lacks "inherent existence"? Does this mean that when touching the stove, there is no heat exoerienced? Or what does it mean? If heat is not felt, then what is touched? You would make no distinction in this context between 'heat' and 'cooker' (or 'stove'). You would say that 'cooker' lacks "inherent existence" as well. Would you agree that heat arises by conditions, whereas 'cooker' cannot be said to arise by conditions? Would you agree that what arises must exist at such a time of arising? ... > >Tony: This is unrefutable and a relentless fact. Things do exist, but not in the way that they appear. > > >S: What do you mean by "things"? > > By 'things' I mean anything you care to choose. Anything at all...any appearance to your mind. That's all it is, an appearance. Not an appearance 'of something'....merely an appearance. ... S: So, sticking to the examples of 'heat' and 'cooker', you'd make no distinction. You'd say both 'heat' and 'cooker' exist, but not "as they appear". You would say they both only "appear" to the mind. So let me ask you again, at the moment of touching the hot cooker, is any heat experienced through the body-sense or does it just "appear to the mind"? And what does this mean - "appear to the mind"? Does it mean no heat was ever really experienced, only an imaginary idea of 'heat' was thought about? What is "the mind"? What is "an appearance"? .... > >Tony: Their mode of existence is illusory. This is true for anything and everything that can be brought to the table...including that which you call Ultimate Realities. Nothing at all anywhere ever, escapes the logic of irreducibility... ... S: So you are saying that 'heat' is "illusory". Is that correct? What is a "mode of existence" otherwise? Are you saying that heat is 'illusory' because of 'the logic of irreducibility"? What does this mean? Can we agree that heat is an element which cannot be 'reduced'? If so, why does this make it illusory? ... > >Sarah: Let's take the example of 'heat' as you include 'ultimate realities'. What does it mean to say "the mode of existence of heat is illusory"? > > As for heat, cold etc, these "ultimate things," what kind of "ultimate things" are they? ... S: You didn't answer my question. ... >Piatigorsky, in his studies of the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka texts... .. S: I'll wait for you to answer my unanswered qu in your own words first. (Btw, I knew the author a little a long time ago in London. I had started an MA at SOAS in his department before moving to Aus. Could have been lively!) ... > Dhammas are "ultimate things" (not ultimate 'realities') only as a way of talking about aspects of the relational flow of experience, not in terms of describing static realities. In other words, dhammas are empty of self... .... S: Back to 'heat'. We agree that 'heat' is 'empty of self', i.e. anatta. OK. Heat is not an 'ultimate thing', it is an element (dhatu), a khandha, a paramattha dhamma. We agree that heat cannot arise on its own, there must be conditions. This does not mean that 'heat', the 'dhamma of heat' is only 'a way of talking' about a 'relational flow...'. It arises with other dhammas or elements, each one anatta, each one falling away by conditions too. .... Metta Sarah > >Sarah: PLEASE add the name being addressed in a salutation, just 'Sarah' or 'Ken H' or 'All' is fine! > > Thought I had done this...unless you mean in the Subject of the reply - if so apologies, I will in future. ... S: Must be a Mahayana 'relational flow 'thingy that makes this so complicated!!! I don't touch the subject heading at all, but start my note to you 'Hi Tony' or 'Tony' and end it with 'Sarah'. You then start your reply with 'Sarah' and end it with 'Tony':-)) ===== #131339 From: "Gregory E. LeBlanc" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Dieter and Ann, 2. gleblanc108 yes, thanks, that is clear. i remember Dipa Ma being asked what does the observing/realizing (or close to that anyways), she said Wisdom (Panna). so, if i understand you correctly, all that happens is a conditioned attraction to the Dhamma, and that "success" in the application and understanding of the Dhamma is also conditioned. so, in a sense, "we" are not making a choice to learn Buddhism and that the results of studying Buddhism has nothing to do with an "I." g. On 6/18/2013 2:31 AM, sarah wrote: <...> > S: The development of understanding of realities - i.e. the presently > appearing nama or rupa - is not an "approach". It is the understanding > of these dhammas as anatta, as taught by the Buddha. It's the very > opposite to the idea of being "a passive observer" or "noter', because > when there is the idea of observing or noting or paying special > attention, it is all done with the idea of a Self, not the > understanding of no-self at all. > > The development of understanding has to grow with detachment, > detachment from results, from wishing to observe or note or be mindful > of any thing. <...> #131340 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:27 am Subject: Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Dear Group Thank you Alberto. I focus on one section: >>>M: Thank you, that's really what I meant to clarify. So when we are talking about clinging, what are we talking about? TA: A reality, which is unknown, everything is unknown right now; like chicks in their shells: not strong enough to break the shell, and what is meant by what is in the shell - ignorance; so we're like chicks, in the dark - ignorance, in the shell. When there is no understanding of anything at all, is the chick happy in the shell, inside the shell? M: Seems to be. TA: Yes, like at moment of not understanding reality as it is, because even pleasant feeling's very short, but desire and attachment is there, all the time, clinging to that very short..., and it just appears and disappears; covered up, the truth is covered by ignorance, that's why one learns to understuand whatever appears, not to have ignorance about it. Ph: Chicks in the dark, unable to break the shell, nevertheless content in ignorance. Panna to weak to break the shell, just a few rare opening in the dome of lobha, an image Ajahn uses elsewhere. Why do I feel happy to read how weak panna is? I guess there is clinging to thinking about a story about panna developing very gradually. (Can there be clinging to a story or only to dhammas?) Phil --- ually the clinging itself does not appear. > #131341 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:02 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... epsteinrob Hi pt, and Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Could I please remind everyone about the DSG guidelines, i.e. staying friendly, pleasant, tolerant, avoiding sarcasm, personal remarks, etc. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DSG%20Guidelines.htm That's a good reminder, pt, though in this case I was conscious of giving Phil a little bit of a hard time. I actually thought I was being helpful and that Phil would appreciate my message - it's possible that he did, since the point was to go back to the presently arising dhamma and not worry about other people's "false beliefs," as he perceives them, or their appropriateness for dsg. Phil is very caught up in evaluating other people's participation in dsg, and in expressing this. It seems like a big distraction, and can also be discouraging to others who are participating in their own ways. It is the equivalent of telling people who don't agree with you to shut up and leave. I also thought that the idea that the opportunity to participate in dsg is part of vipaka for everyone here, and so even if someone has a wrong view in one's opinion, we should perhaps recognize that they are at least advanced enough to have found their way to dsg as the expression of a certain degree of understanding and kusala kamma. It's pretty special to be trying to understand these things at all. No doubt I should have expressed myself more congenially and followed the dsg guidelines more closely. :-) ... > E.g. on the subject of paramattha dhammas that Thomas raised, there are many related sub-headings in the Useful Posts - Paramattha dhamma 1 and 2, Realities, etc. Taking the first post out of the sub-heading Realities: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/56830 > > The post already contains two quotes from suttas on the subject of dhammas existing, etc. Perhaps a place to start... This was a very interesting post and I enjoyed reviewing the quotes, though I think the meaning of the word "dhammas/things" in those contexts, when the kandhas are being talked about, is subject to further understanding, at least on my part. > > ...complain complain complain... Yeah, I got it. Thanks for quoting. The point may perhaps have some validity, but the mode of expression did not. However, I hope that Phil got some sense of the humor that was mixed in with my little diatribe - it was meant to be a slightly humorous though improvisational communication, and not really an attack, and actually to be helpful. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #131342 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:07 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > And yes I know Ajahn says she sometimes likes to all kinds of teachers even if they are wrong. But what do we learn from people who are wrong except where and how they are going wrong. What do we learn from Ajahn having this kind of tolerance and good will? It may be that for one's personal development it is important to honor the other person with metta, etc., even if you don't agree with their views. Ajahn Sujin is clearly capable of this. She does not involve herself in judgmentalism and petty squabbles, just keeps teaching her understanding so that others may grasp it when conditions are right. A good example to contemplate and learn from, one that is also exemplified by Sarah and Nina, who correct wrong understandings but never disparage the person they are addressing. Very good examples here that you respect and can emulate. Why content yourself with preaching to the choir, when you can clarify your own understanding by helping others to correct their wrong views? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #131343 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:42 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo RobE, > > > > > Jon: Worldly activities and obligations are not the problem; once one realises what's truly unique and significant about the Buddha's teaching, certain other areas of interest become less attractive. > > > > Like paying the mortgage? I wouldn't exactly call what I have in mind areas of interest. Responsibilities are just there for householders, as you know, and can be incessant at times. > Azita: I get the feeling that you just haven't yet got the link between everyday life e.g., paying your mortgage, maybe feeling stressed about where the money's coming from etc and the fact that there are conditioned parramattha dhammas arising and falling again and again as 'we' go about our daily lives. What else is there? Sure, I think that is a good point, and of course during everyday affairs there is always the possibility of realizing the nature of arising dhammas and having insight into the "visible object" that is interpreted as the "mortgage paper." I do understand that, and I appreciate the reminder. However, it is not quite as simple to sort out the means by which this becomes known as it is to merely talk about it and understand it intellectually. The question at the moment that you quoted between Jon and myself was about the efficacy of meditation, an ongoing issue here on dsg, although I know it is settled for many on both sides of the issue and is more of a disagreement than a true debate or investigation. Too bad about that. Those on the dsg side of things believe that if one understands this theoretical point - that there are only dhammas and that's the whole shooting match! - that there is nothing else to do other than await the conditioned opportunities for understanding to arise in the midst of this or that. There is no acknowledgment at all given to the practices or conditions that the Buddha actually lived with and spoke about throughout his long teaching career. All of that is dismissed as just circumstantial and having no direct bearing on the path. I just don't think that's true, and the argument that it must be true because there are "only dhammas" is not in itself a logical argument. > Is there not visible object appearing when 'you' look at your mortgage papers? Or rather, there is only visible object and because of various conditions-ignorance > being a big factor- we take it for paper or whatever. > > Unless there is,however weak,right understanding from the very beginning of 'studying' dhammas, there will never be a clear way to know realities. No amount of commentary or sutta study will help unless there is knowing that all there is, is citta, cetasika and rupa - the five khandhas arising and passing away. I have to partially agree and partially disagree with you. It is said many many times that understanding the suttas and commentaries theoretically is a *precondition* for understanding directly, so one cannot really say that "no amount of study" will ever lead to direct understanding. That seems to be a contradiction to the idea that pariyatti develops when right theoretical understanding accumulates to the point of conditioning direct understanding, doesn't it? On the other hand you are right that no amount of theoretical understanding will in and of itself lead to or substitute for direct understanding. Direct understanding is direct understanding. It is also true, but usually not given any attention, that a seemingly correct understanding of the truth of "only dhammas existing" that is applied incorrectly can also be damaging to right understanding. And it is in that area - what are the *implications* of the existence of momentary dhammas - where all the meaningful disagreements are around here. Those who believe in meditation do not believe in a controlling self. They believe in the efficacy of practice, and that the intention and action of meditating creates conditions for direct understanding. This is seen as merely more self-view by the opposing camp. So that is the real area of disagreement, not whether understanding *can* arise in everyday life. > With every arising moment the last moment has gone already, never to arise again. > Conditioned dhammas is all there is!!!! And yet there are intentions, kamma, accumulations, tendencies, responses to vipaka in the moment and the results that come from there which creates new kamma, so there is more to the story of what these tricky little dhammas do in their momentary existence, generally ignored when one is trying to repeat the same "main point" that there are only momentary dhammas, without looking at the implications of how they actually work. > patience, courage and good cheer, which could be translated as Khanti, viriya, metta I appreciate that, and I wish you the same! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #131344 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:48 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: > Just read the Sutta Han (AN 6:46, Mahaacunda Sutta) quoted with the following at the end: > > sikkhitabbaf > > "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are > Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? > Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of > the deathless element (Nibbaana). > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves > are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And > why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom > clearly understand a difficult subject." > > > D: Satu! This is good and fitting quotation , Sarah. A good reminder for those , who prefer DSG limited to Abhidhamma discussion (respectively their interpretation of it ) and do not seek a common understanding , which - e.g. by above- we are requested to train ourselves. ... S: Here are some further comments on this same sutta I wrote quite a long time ago #33934: D: reminds me to pay more attention to the archive ... I guess 90 % of that what is discussed nowadays has been said in this or that form already. Didn't we talk about trying to get some kind of manual for the topics treated ? Some brief review with conclusion (points of agreement,disagreement)..eventually I would participate.. >S:What is interesting is that when we look at the wording and the commentary notes, it becomes apparent that both groups are ariyan disciples (i.e at least sotapannas). The first group have become enlightened without the development of jhanas and the second group with jhanas. D: yes, 'such outstanding persons' ..'rare in the world' refers obviously to the Noble Ones . But that doesn't mean a benefitial exchange of understanding is not possible at 'householder' level of different personalities,types... i.e. us. B.T.W. Nyanatiloka's definition of 'puggala' " 'individual', 'person', as well as the synonyms: personality, individuality, being (satta), self (atta), etc., in short all terms designating a personal entity, hence also: I, you, he, man, god, etc., all these, according to Buddhism, are mere names for certain combinations of material and mental processes, and apart from them they have no real existence. They are to be considered as mere 'conventional modes of expression'(vohara-vacana), and on that level they may be used, and are so used in the sutta texts, if taken "without misapprehending them" (s. quote from D. 9 under paramattha). With such tacit reservations, the termpuggala occurs quite frequently in the suttas.In the ultimate sense (paramattha, q.v.), however, there exist only ever-changing physical and mental phenomena, flashing up and dying every moment. - Kath., in its first section, discusses the question whether "in the absolute sense, any personality (puggala) can be found" (s. Guide, pp. 62ff). - See paramattha, anatta." leaves the question open, why , if 'personality/individuality ' means ' more conventional modes of expression ' , why these individuals are described by Abhidhamma's "Puggalapannatti " An enumeration of the qualities of certain different 'personality types'. These types were believed to be useful in formulating teachings to which an individual would respond positively" (Wiki) Conventional truth is valid in its own domain so is classical physics in respect to quantum physics likewise the often quoted mundane right understanding.. an issue , I believe we haven't reached an agreement yet. There are - as we know - plenty of suttas discribing different people and different approaches. For the distinction of the 2 groups of Mahaacunda Sutta , following extract is quite helpful http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Ajahn_Chandako_Samatha_and_Vipassana_in_Harmon\ y.htm The distinguishing between samatha and vipassan as different styles of practice begins to be made in some places in the commentaries. There the terms samathayana and vipassanyana were coined to describe people whose main emphasis (or vehicle) is either one or the other. Still, the references are few and brief. It is only in the sub-commentaries, written long after the Buddha's time, where these two are developed and described as different paths of practice. It is here that the term dry-insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) is introduced. This refers to a person who only develops momentary samdhi, or practices insight meditation without any samatha whatsoever, maintaining a bare, non-discursive, moment to moment observation of the changing process of the body and mind. I suppose , the issue of vipassana and samatha is one of the most discussed topics on DSG, just because it seems so 'typical ' for the 2 'camps' .. S: When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'. D: You are right there is an overlapping . But in general I think one may say the dry-insight worker isn't 'moistured ' by Jhana experience though not assume that dry-insight doesn't work . S:If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and commentary notes, I think. D: yes.. and not neglecting contemporary commentary. S:The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group of 'meditators' refers those who have attained jhanas. D: if B.Bodhi accepts the term 'preacher' for himself , then we may count the forest monks belonging to the second group, may we not? S: Obviously neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any dispute! D: yes , having reached the other shore what is the use for both discussing details of the raft S:From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group, the 'meditators' have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) b"penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana). So both groups are enlightened but presumably only the second group have attained jhanas. Obviously there is no suggestion that for the first group this is merely an intellectual approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment should be highly respected.< ***** D: The point of the 'Dhammayoga Bhikkhus' seems to me that they have no chance to get a glimpse of Nibbana on their way to liberation. >S: So there were disputes even during the Buddha's life between different groups of ariyan disciples, I think. And so who are we that we could possibly be beyond having disputes of any kind? D: no doubt about that .. but - and I am sure you agree with me - a dispute should still be led by 'right speech ' ,in particular avoiding being offensive S: Any noble or wholesome qualities should be praised and respected and no one has suggested that jhana attainment or the development of samatha should not be included in this.< (end old post) ..... D: yes..and I would wish that comments like ' meditation is useless or a wrong path ' are ceasing and replaced by respect for an approach which concerns the samadhi sequence of the Noble Path training...likewise the second group should show openness for the teaching of Abhidhamma and 'ultimate reality' Learning from eachother... isn't that the core of Mahaacunda Sutta? with Metta Dieter , #131345 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:38 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. philofillet Hi Rob E You tossed me a softball, thanks! _(^o^)^A judgmental post about not being judgmental! If you don't like petty squabbles why contribute to them? (That is a rhetorical question, I don't need a 500 word essay) Seriously, you are right. Thanks. No, seriously. . (Scott imitation. Sigh...) Phil #131346 From: "colette_aube" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:31 am Subject: Re: A couple of question: restrain senses. colette_aube Hi Tep, Sorry for DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY ignoring your response to the concept the Buddha used in describing "the boat" that carries the individual to "the other side". I openly admit, from the get-go, that I do not understand the CONCEPT through the words "...conditioned attabhava sense)." that you use/apply. With that said and understood as my position on your statement. I shall now bother to elaborate further on this in the hopes that I can intermingle with NARGARJUNA'S actual vibration that he himself set into motion (see TURNING OF THE WHEEL). People devote themselves to this or that TEMPLE (see Murray Head: "ONE NIGHT IN BANGKOK") and with/included in and through this "devotion" is the dependence upon a RATIONALITY that accompanies the "Temple". Part of the UNSEEN aspect, the ESOTERIC ASPECT, the HIDDEN ASPECT, of this devotion is the acceptance of a WAVE vibration (see SOUND FEEDBACK, see PRIMARY WAVE, see SHOCK WAVE i.e. a Type 1A Supernova has sent a shock wave through the galaxy and that WAVE is going to arrive at the nebula THE PILLARS OF CREATION at some point in this theory called TIME, which will destroy THE PILLARS OF CREATION because there is NO SUBSTANCE TO THEM thus a relative truth) Beijing, in their determination to build a subway system, has been very specific about the vibrations of each and every building, skyscrapper, that the subway will travel beneath because those subway cars will create VIBRATIONS within the ground as they travel hither and yon, from here to there. That boat made the INCOMPREHENSIBLE possible to TRAVERSE and thus, in the small minds of the infantile slave, they view this act of behavior as having a VALUE thus they delusion a VALUE possessed by THAT/THOSE THOUGHT(S) THAT MADE THE INCOMPREHENSIBLE NOTHING MORE THAN CHILD'S PLAY i.e. "Elementary Watson". THUS, they will carry the burden of that RATIONALITY, of the PSYCHOLOGY, of that robotic behavior, with them so that it negates any EXPERIENCE they may have with and in THE FUTURE. They carry that boat as though it were a bag of bricks that NYC Lawyers praise carrying. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Colette, Howard, Sarah - > > Here's a good example of random discussion (anything goes; i.e., I don't have to listen to you, I'll say what I want!!). > > > > > >Colette: Can anybody tell me exactly HOW HEAVY THAT RAFT IS TO CARRY now that it has gotten you across the river? > > > > >Sarah: How heavy is attachment or grasping now? How heavy is aversion or anger now? How heavy is ignorance now? > > > >Howard: In several posts you (correctly) ask "Who is this 'one'?" I would like to ask *you* "What is this 'now' you speak of?" and "Can you show me 'now' (or any 'now')? Not findable is such a thing in reality - it is a perfect example, IMO, of somthing that is concept-only! > ................ > > Howard's quote: /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned. > Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change while > remaining is discernible."These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ > > >Colette : OUCH, that is a hot one! Excessively accurate and potent, as though a bija were planted in dirt as an acorn. > --------------- > > T: A raft is not supposed to be carried -- it carries you to the other shore, given that you make an earnest effort to help yourself (in the conditioned attabhava sense). > > Truly, > Tep > === > #131347 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:56 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. philofillet Hi again Rob E That was really too much, sorry. Hiri and otappa arise and tell me that I am having too much fun with wrong speech these days. Perhaps they will condition a reduction of it. No way to be sure of that though. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E > > > You tossed me a softball, thanks! _(^o^)^A judgmental post about not being judgmental! > > If you don't like petty squabbles why contribute to them? > > (That is a rhetorical question, I don't need a 500 word essay) > > Seriously, you are right. Thanks. No, seriously. . (Scott imitation. Sigh...) > > Phil > #131348 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:18 am Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma thomaslaw03 Hi Sarah, ------- > > S: We have a different understanding here. Computer ad concepts are not dhammas (realities or phenomena), arisen by causal condition, pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa. > > > > The dhammas that are conditioned are the khandhas, i.e. cittas, cetasikas and rupas only. > > > > They are the "all" that exist, apart from the unconditioned nibbana. > > > >T: According to the teachings of "pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa" or "pa.tccasamuppaada", they (khandhas, or cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or Computer, concepts) are phenomena (dhammaa). ------- > S: I gave you a quote yesterday from the Mulapariyaya Sutta with commentary notes which make it clear that "computer", "flowers" and "people" are imagined concepts, conventionally used ideas thought about. They are not the realities/phenomena (dhammaa) included in paticca-samuppannaa dhammaa. T:: According to the teaching of "arising by causal condition" (pa.ticcasamuppaada) and "dhammas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition" (paticca-samuppannaa dhammaa) (such as in SN 12.20), any imagined concepts, conventionally used ideas are dhammas/phenomena. For example, the terms, mano-vinnanam "mind-consciousness" (in the factor vinnanam), mana-ayatanam "sense sphere of mind" (in salayatanam), and dhamma-tanha "craving for mental objects" (ideas), are the factors in the teaching of "arising by causal condition" and "dhammas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition". -------- > T: They all are arisen by causal condition. Nibbana refers to the cessation of dukkha (suffering) or of asavana (influxes) > S: Nibbana is the unconditioned element. T: Because Nibbana means the cessation of dukkha in the following principle of "arising and ceasing by causal condition": This existing, that comes to exist (imasmim sati idam hoti); from the arising of this, that arises (imassuppada idam uppajjati); this not existing, that does not come to exist (imasmim asati idam na hoti); from the ceasing of this, that ceases (imassa nirodha idam nirujjhati). Nibbana is included in the teaching of pa.ticcasamuppaada. ------- > S: Computers are not elements or khandhas, therefore they are not conditioned. They don't exist in reality. T: Why Computers are not elements or khandhas, and are not conditioned? What is "reality" you refer to here? Do you refer to the notion of not-self, Nibbana? -------- Thomas #131349 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:49 am Subject: Re: stages of vipassana philofillet Dear group I have been cruising the useful post these days in a lobha moha rooted aspiration to upgrade the quality of the list. I seem to come across a lot of letters from Robert K. Wow does he write well, with right understanding. The following is a letter describing his conversations with Mormon missionaries. He writes about their glowing complexions and their joyful certainty. In contrast sit with his own rough shabbiness. And how the Dhamma is not the way of just feeling good and shiny it is a way of understanding whatever reality is arising. That is what makes students of Ajahn Sujin speak of courage, we are not out to feel good and blissful like other Buddhists. We are out to understand whatever the reality is. Robert also writes with modesty about how little he understands and how he knows that. This is so different from the unfounded confidence of pop Buddhists with their jhanas here and insight there, stream entry stream entry everywhere. Please enjoy the letter. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Dear Theresa, > I think we may have to agree to disagree on a few > points. > I guess take a conservative approach to the Dhamma > these days. It wasn't always like that  I was quite > happy to believe the words of any teacher. Now I find > that the Tipitaka: the vinaya, the suttanta and the > Abhidhamma to be the most helpful guide. Many people > claim to be sotapanna or higher  this is easy to say >  but I am more interested in hearing and learning > about the characteristic and function of realities > that are appearing at this moment. From learning about > the subtle distinction and seeing myself these > distinctions little by little I have learned just how > tricky and refined lobha, craving can be. I have > learned from direct study of realities that lobha can > come with wrong view or without and that it is not so > easy to comprehend. Perhaps you think I should not be > skeptical of the claims of others who think they have > had deep insight but I assure you I try to be more > skeptical of my own knowledge. I realize more and more > that I know very little indeed. I have seen for myself > that I can truly believe that I know something clearly > when in fact it was merely attachment not > understanding. Whenever I think I am really > understanding something deeply I conclude that this is > just conceit arising. > > Every week or so, two or three Mormons come to visit > me at my office in Japan. Not always the same ones; > they stay for two years before going home. > > They like visiting me because it is one of the few > chances they get to speak English  sort of a rest- > but it still counts as missionary activity. The ones > who know me well don't try too hard to convert me. We > discuss Buddhism and christianity and other topics and > try to understand each others thinking . Everyone has > a profitable time. The new, keen ones almost > invariably- once we get on the topic of how we can > know whether this or that belief is the truth  state > that they have had an experience where any doubts they > had about God and Mormonism been the true path > dissolve. When I inquire how they know this they say > that it is by practicing, praying and living the right > way. This answer comes in the form of a feeling of > joy and clarity of mind- that they say is unmistakable > and anyone who has it will know for themselves. They > say that if I would study more with them and practice > in this way this will happen to me. In some ways it is > appealing. They are extremely upright young men. Their > complexions glow and they are clearly happy, confident > and content. Compared to my badly shaven, > weather-beaten visage they look angelic. The very best > ones have a way of speech that is calm, refined and > polite, their gaze gentle yet firm. Their beliefs and > lifestyles seem to fit well with them. Why do I remain > unswayed? > > Well, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier above. > I find that the phenomena explained in the suttas and > Abhidhamma so helpful to me right now. Doing special > practices to try to have some experiences is not where > my interest lies. I don't mind much whether I have > feelings of clarity or joy. I am more concerned in > learning about the subtlety of moha and whether there > is ditthi or not present. Awareness of anger, > jealousy, boredom, lobha(craving) and the different > feelings that arise at the same time  this is my > interest. At this moment, there is seeing contacting > the rupa which is visible object. I used to think this > was a rather boring thing to study  "it is there > every moment my eyes are open what could I learn from > such a mundane thing? But this has become most > interesting too. > Whenever people tell me they are enlightened;or that > they have deep insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta; or > that they had satori while mediating at the zen temple > near my city; or they know that God exists; or that > they are scientists and that after death everything > ends; or that their teacher can perform miracles I > reply in much the same way. I mentally and verbally > wish them well. I explain what I have understood from > studying the Tipitika, I talk about how lobha, > attachment can attach to anything and how it distorts > our vision. I explain that when it is associated with > ditthi (view)it makes us believe that our way is > right. I explain that I must admit to no special deep > insight. All I can say is that more and more the words > contained in the Tipitika seem so right. The > Abhidhamma seems to describe life exactly as it > appears and thus I continue on learning how to study > the present moment in my own clumsy, plodding way. > Robert > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! > http://photos.yahoo.com > #131350 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:04 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 39. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5, `Momentary death' (cont'd): Knowing the theory of the Dhamma is completely different from attending to the reality that presents itself now. Time and again Acharn reminded us of this fact. For example, we have learnt about different feelings: pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and indifferent feeling. In each process of citta kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise and these are called in Pali "javana-cittas". Seven javana-cittas usually arise in each process. When we consider the accompanying feeling, we have learnt that pleasant feeling can arise with kusala citta and with akusala citta rooted in attachment, lobha. Unpleasant feeling invariably arises with the citta rooted in aversion, thus, with akusala citta. Indifferent feeling can arise with kusala citta and also with akusala citta, namely, with citta rooted in attachment and citta rooted in ignorance. We have learnt all this in theory, but feelings are realities arising all the time in daily life. We cling to feeling and take them for mine. We could ask ourselves: is there feeling now? It seems, when there is indifferent feeling, that the citta is not akusala, that we do not harm anyone. However, when our objective is not daana, generosity, siila, morality, or bhaavanaa, mental development, we act, speak or think with akusala citta. Even when we listen to the Dhamma and consider it, thus, when we apply ourselves to mental development, kusala cittas do not arise all the time. They alternate with akusala cittas. We can see that the teachings help us to know the extent of our defilements that arise because of conditions, because they were accumulated for aeons, from moment to moment, from life to life. We can understand somewhat more the nature of anattaa of the dhammas that arise. We cannot control the dhammas that arise, but understanding of them can be developed. (To be continued) #131351 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:33 pm Subject: Thina Miita (spelling?) philofillet Dear group Listening to Ajahn talk about sloth and torpor, I forget the exact Paali words, sounds like Thina Miita. She says why think about Thina Miita, just call it what it is for you, which is tiredness. But then she encourages us to know the characteristics of the realities that are Tina Miita. I guess tiredness is always involved with a story of a tired person, my tiredness. But he story of tiredness is made up of realities that are Thina Miita. Also I heard that with lobha there is often thina miita. That makes sense. For alobha there would have to be non slothful cittas arising, with understanding as well. (Right?) I wonder why she said just call it tiredness instead of thinking about "thina miitha", isn't it better to remember what the dhammas are that are almost sure to be active in certain situations. Then we can understand that there are characteristics arising of dhammas and there may be conditions for investigating them. Phil #131352 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:37 pm Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > That was really too much, sorry. Hiri and otappa arise and tell me that I am having too much fun with wrong speech these days. Perhaps they will condition a reduction of it. No way to be sure of that though. I don't mind - I appreciate a little humor since we are often so serious about fighting things out. I don't know if it's true but it seems that that kind of over-seriousness is probably an expression of self-view. As for the comments in the prior post, you were right to say that it was a judgmental post about being judgmental. That struck me as being funny too. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Rob E > > > > > > You tossed me a softball, thanks! _(^o^)^A judgmental post about not being judgmental! > > > > If you don't like petty squabbles why contribute to them? > > > > (That is a rhetorical question, I don't need a 500 word essay) > > > > Seriously, you are right. Thanks. No, seriously. . (Scott imitation. Sigh...) > > > > Phil > > > #131353 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:14 pm Subject: Let's encourage Lukas philofillet Dear Group Just to let those who haven't heard know that Lukas has moved to England, and after a few weeks' stay at a monastery as a lay guest now has a place of his own and is working 11 hour days at a restaurant to try to make ends meet. As we all know when things get totally exhausting it's possible to lose touch with Dhamma, so I'm sure receiving words of encouragement and reminders about dhammas in daily life could help encourage him during this challenging period. Phil #131354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Let's encourage Lukas nilovg Dear Lukas and Phil, wonderful news. I am really glad. And we all need encouragement, not only Lukas. We all are busy and are confronted with difficult situations, but as T.A, said: do not forget to study Dhamma, and that is not book study but study with awareness the present reality. Lukas is very brave, I appreciate this. Nina. Op 19-jun-2013, om 6:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Just to let those who haven't heard know that Lukas has moved to > England, and after a few weeks' stay at a monastery as a lay guest > now has a place of his own and is working 11 hour days at a > restaurant to try to make ends meet. #131355 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:22 pm Subject: Re: Let's encourage Lukas sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & Phil, As Jon & I recently reminded Lukas, it's so helpful to remember that Dhamma and dhammas are always now and that there can be awareness and understanding anytime at all, even when we're exhausted in our work or as we lie down to sleep. Jon wrote: "Things are bound to get tough (old cravings arising again), but remember that tough situations are only dhammas just like all other situations." As it happens I was just doing some editing and just listened to the following passage (after a discussion about dhatus (elements) not being 'in the book', but now: **** L: Ajahn, once you mentioned that isn't it good to know one's accumulations.... AS: Certainly... L: So even this accumulation.... AS: Even right now, talking about dhatu (element), what's the accumulation of citta at that very moment? L: Even this bad, bad behaviour or all akusala can be known.... AS: If it's not the result of understanding of this moment, it will lead to another harmful moment from moment to moment. So very dangerous. L: But I still cannot get it clearly like it's dangerous.... AS: And what did Buddha say? L:Appreciate goodness and study Dhamma....but books are more.... AS: But what did he say? L: Do good.... AS: Dhatu, uncontrollable, but it can be developed. Why not now? If it 's not now it would be like akusala more and more. L: It was said in the Tipitaka "the owner of our kamma"....."we are the owner...' AS: With pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition, i.e. accumulations), not only kamma. So Buddha pointed out what is benefit and what is not benefit for those who can see and when right understanding is there, it conditions the way of wholesomeness in life, all the way to that path, leading to more and more understanding. Vacca sacca* will bring about the ~naana sacca which will lead to magga sacca. Only way. (vacca sacca- speech - all the Buddha's Teachings, whatever he taught, each word is truth, will lead to ~naana sacca (truth of insight) which will lead to magga sacca (truth of enlightenment.) ***** Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Just to let those who haven't heard know that Lukas has moved to England, and after a few weeks' stay at a monastery as a lay guest now has a place of his own and is working 11 hour days at a restaurant to try to make ends meet. As we all know when things get totally exhausting it's possible to lose touch with Dhamma, so I'm sure receiving words of encouragement and reminders about dhammas in daily life could help encourage him during this challenging period. #131356 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves > > are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And > > why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom > > clearly understand a difficult subject." > >P: By the way I trust that it is clear to everyone but this sutta clip is saying that people of correct understanding should respect others of correct understanding although the correct understanding is arising in a different way. ... S: That was made clear in my other commets. ... >It is is ***not***saying that people of wrong understanding should be respected and praised by people of right understanding. .... S: Of course. ... >P: That is just political correctness at work and leads to a dilution of correct understanding. This passage is often used for politically correct reasons here at DSG. It is a misunderstood by people if they believe that it is praising finding common ground between people of wrong understanding and right understanding. There is no common ground between people of wrong understanding and right understanding. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I think that is a point that Scott often made. ... S: And the point I'd like to make is that there are just dhammas - so better to look at the dhammas and what is said rather than think in terms of people who are 'of wrong understanding and right understanding'. ... >There is never any doubt about that when I listen to the recorded talks but there is sometimes doubt about that here at DSG. Friendliness is valued at the expense of consistent emphasis on correct understanding. ... S: You've often mentioned this. If you can quote anything Jon, Nina or I have written which doesn't emphasise 'correct understanding', I'd be glad to see it. Thinking that friendliness is not of importance in our encounters with others would be an example of wrong understanding, as I see it. As Ajahn stressed to Lukas in Poland, we may use as an excuse that dhammas are conditioned, including unfriendliness, but this is "I am anatta" again! Metta Sarah ===== #131357 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Did it ever occur to you that people come to dsg due to conditions also and that they are supposed to be there? It's vipaka isn't it? ... S: Whilst we just think in terms of the whole situations, we won't begin to understand conditions. So to be a little more precise, vipaka are moments such as seeing now, hearing now, body consciousness now. "Coming to DSG..." is really just an idea. So many different dhammas from moment to moment. ... >Can someone choose to ignore their kamma and choose a different vipaka? Can you? Your unpleasant vipaka is to have to listen to a bunch of idiots who spout wrong view all the time. .. S: So seeing now is vipaka. We cannot say that the visible object seen at this moment is wholesome or unwholesome vipaka (result of good or bad deeds). We do know that moments of seeing are always accompanied by neutral feeling, however. So no "unpleasant vipaka" when seeing or hearing. The unpleasantness referred to such as when we think we hear a 'bunch of idiots' is the dosa and domanassa (unpleasant feeling) which arises later when there is thinking about ideas of what has been seen and heard. These are accumulated tendencies that lead to more unwholesome kamma which will bring unpleasant results in future. ... >May as well see the nature of those dhammas rather than complain all day long. ... S: Undersanding now of what appears is always most precious! Metta Sarah ===== #131358 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:34 pm Subject: Re: Let's encourage Lukas philofillet Hi Nina, Sarah, and group I should add that I think notes sent to his email address (which can be found of course by searching for one of his posts) might be best since he might not be seeing the list. Just a thought. Phil #131359 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:44 pm Subject: Thina Middha (was Re: Thina Miita (spelling?) philofillet Hi again > I wonder why she said just call it tiredness instead of thinking about "thina miitha", isn't it better to remember what the dhammas are that are almost sure to be active in certain situations. Then we can understand that there are characteristics arising of dhammas and there may be conditions for investigating them. > I listened some more. Both Sarah and Nina pointed out that assuming that because one is tired thina and middha are arising is an oversimplification. That's a good thing to point out. In the past I have commented that sometimes we assume certain dhammas are arising based on speculating on situations. In order to confirm the spelling of the terms I did a quick Google search. What an awful lot of bad teaching online about sloth and torpor based on conventional meanings of being sleepy and tired in conventional situations such as "meditating." No appreciation of momentary dhammas just a lot of talk about conventional situations. We really are fortunate to be sensitive to the Abhidhamma and the teaching of fleeting, momentary dhammas arising and falling beyond the control of a self that is eager to get rid of them in order to have a really really good meditation! _(^o^)^ Phil #131360 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thina Middha (was Re: Thina Miita (spelling?) nilovg Dear Phil, Really hard to spot thiinamiddha. They can arise when the akusala citta is sasankhaarika, thus not as keen and strong as asa.nkharika. This is already complicated, and why should we try to catch it? Thinking will not help much. True, when tired the citta is not keen and strong, but we may think in conventional terms about tiredness. Beware. Nina. Op 19-jun-2013, om 11:44 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I wonder why she said just call it tiredness instead of thinking > about "thina miitha", isn't it better to remember what the dhammas > are that are almost sure to be active in certain situations. #131361 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Thina Middha (was Re: Thina Miita (spelling?) philofillet Hi Nina > Really hard to spot thiinamiddha. They can arise when the akusala > citta is sasankhaarika, thus not as keen and strong as asa.nkharika. Right. They are not to be spotted. But good to understand in theory that they are arising. > This is already complicated, and why should we try to catch it? > Thinking will not help much. True, when tired the citta is not keen > and strong, but we may think in conventional terms about tiredness. Thinking is the reality that we will become aware of, probably, isn't it? > Beware. Ph: why do you say 'beware', Nina? Because we get swept away by thinking about being the tired person, the sick person, and so on. The realities that triggered the thinking are long gone but thinking holds on to them and spins out stories. And that leads to faster and thicker proliferation next time those realities arise? But how to stop all the thinking. "Thinking is not the problem" we often hear. But we are certainly better off if the topic if thinking is realities rather than concepts. There was a very interesting part of that talk that started with times middha. Maeve commented that it seemed to her that after all these years the topics of the discussions were becoming more about present realities in less about concepts and stories. I John said that the conversations were moving closer to reality. And that is the way our understanding will grow gradually gradually gradually. Tom had asked about whether we can sense progress or not. And of course the topic of that adze handle simile came out. But I think it could possibly be said that if one finds that habitually the topic of one's thinking is related to realities rather than stories about me me me it is a sign of bhavana...but that is just a story... Phil > Nina. > Op 19-jun-2013, om 11:44 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > I wonder why she said just call it tiredness instead of thinking > > about "thina miitha", isn't it better to remember what the dhammas > > are that are almost sure to be active in certain situations. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #131362 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Thina Middha (was Re: Thina Miita (spelling?) philofillet Hi again Correction : The "I John" in my previous post was my voice transcription device's take on "Ajahn." Phil #131363 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:01 am Subject: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Leaving self leaving identity leaving life leaving individual one has to continuously see the arising dhamma whatever it is say 'naama' or 'ruupa'. Continuously means uninterruptedly from wake to retiring sleep. Something hits consciousness and runs away. At the time of hit is the very present moment. When hits there arises consciousness. This consciousness is vi~n~naa.nakkhandhaa. It is not free of cetasikas or mental factors. There is feeling when hits. This feeling is vedanaakkhandhaa. There also is perception or cognition of object or memory example as soon as green is seen grass is remember. This is sa~n~naakkhandhaa. When hits it is not without volition. Volition always arises with consciousness. This volition or cetanaa is the leader of all other cetasikas except vedanaa and sannaa in terms of mental work. This cetanaa and all other cetasikas are sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa. When hits there are 1. vinnaa.nakkhandha (consciousness) 2. vedanaakkhandhaa (feeling) 3. sannaakkhandhaa (perception/memory) 4. sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa (volition and other cetasikas) 5. ruupakkhandhaa (works as object/aaramma.na) The first four is naama. The last is ruupa. At any given point there are these five dhamma arising together at the very same time as sahajaata-dhammma (sahajaata paccaya). One cannot direct all at the same time. While directing to naama ruupa is ignored. When naama is cognised rightly then there is possibility that the markers of naama are seen. These markers are lakkha.naa. There are three important lakkha.naa. 1. sabhaava lakkha.naa 2. sa`nkhata lakkha.na 3. saama~n~na lakkha.naa May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131364 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:44 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, and All, ------ > > E.g. on the subject of paramattha dhammas that Thomas raised, there are many related sub-headings in the Useful Posts - Paramattha dhamma 1 and 2, Realities, etc. Taking the first post out of the sub-heading Realities: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/56830 > > The post already contains two quotes from suttas on the subject of dhammas existing, etc. Perhaps a place to start... > ------- From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/56830 > Sarah: Dear RobM, TG, Howard, Joop & all, Thankyou for giving me the chance to consider more about the use of reality or `reality' as a translation of dhamma, referring to that which arises, falls and can be known when it appears now. Let me try to take you through some of my reflections here. one at a time. ------- T: Having read carefully of your notes/explanations about the use of reality or `reality' as a translation of dhamma, I consider that it is still better to translate as `phenomenon' (including the meaning of mental objects/ideas `dhammas') according to the principal teaching of "conditioned arising" (pa.ticcasamuppaada). See the Nidana Samyutta. But the word `reality' can be used for sacca, which is usually translated as `truth'. Regards, Thomas #131365 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:03 pm Subject: An apology from the arising of hiri and otappa or just clinging to self image? philofillet Dear all I don't know which (see subject) it is, no way to know, but there is an impulse to post an apology and a wish that all sentient beings (except mosquitoes) feel free to participate here. I will stop scolding people and just avoid threads that go against what I consider common sense. ( Which is to say people who don't accept the dhamma theory debating those that do) I promise to behave better. I will stop bullying people. The impulse has already fallen away of course but thinking is operating in a way that permits the posting of this apology, subject to countless conditions and therefore utterly unreliable. Metta, Phil P.S As a bonus offering, I give you 48 hours of Phil shutting up. #131366 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > T: Having read carefully of your notes/explanations about the use of reality or `reality' as a translation of dhamma, I consider that it is still better to translate as `phenomenon' (including the meaning of mental objects/ideas `dhammas') according to the principal teaching of "conditioned arising" (pa.ticcasamuppaada). See the Nidana Samyutta. ... S: You like 'phenomenon' because you like to blur the distinction between realities and concepts. For example, mental objects/ideas (dhammarammana) includes all objects of cittas in the mind-door processes, real and imaginary or concepts. However, the dhammas (realities) which are conditioned and included in paticcasamuppada, do not include concepts because concepts are not conditioned and do not arise and pass away. So the names and labels are not important, but the understanding of the meaning is. Perhaps you'd like to quote what you have in mind from Nidana Samyutta and we can discuss further if you still think the 'conditioned arising' dhammas include imaginary concepts. Metta Sarah p.s We're travelling to Sydney tomorrow, so please expect delays in replies for the next few days. ===== #131367 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:29 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 40. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5, `Momentary death' (cont'd): Before we heard the Dhamma we had no understanding of realities, no understanding of defilements. We accumulated more ignorance and clinging from day to day. We should be grateful to have listened to the Dhamma and to be able to begin developing understanding of our life, of the truth. We learn that there are many different types of conditions for whatever reality arises. We find it difficult to accept that a dear person who has died will never return. However, we should realize that each naama or ruupa that arises falls away and can never return. There is dying at each moment: seeing arises and then falls away for good, and it is the same with hearing, with the other sense-cognitions and with thinking. We shall have more understanding of what the world is: only one moment of experiencing one object at a time, and then gone for good. Even a person who is alive is actually citta, cetasika and ruupa which arise because of conditions and then fall away, which are very temporary. Seeing dies, hearing dies at this moment, so, where are people, where is a person? Where is a person who dies? In reality there is no person. A moment of seeing cannot be a person, it arises and falls away. We think that there is a permanent person who sees, who hears, but actually, seeing is a conditioned reality that arises and falls away immediately. (To be continued) #131368 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:03 pm Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > T:: According to the teaching of "arising by causal condition" (pa.ticcasamuppaada) and "dhammas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition" (paticca-samuppannaa dhammaa) (such as in SN 12.20), > > any imagined concepts, conventionally used ideas are dhammas/phenomena. ... S: Please give me a quote which leads you to believe these are dhammas in the context under discussion- pa.ticcasamuppaada. ... > > For example, the terms, mano-vinnanam "mind-consciousness" (in the factor vinnanam), mana-ayatanam "sense sphere of mind" (in salayatanam), and dhamma-tanha "craving for mental objects" (ideas), are the factors in the teaching of "arising by causal condition" and "dhammas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition". .... S: "Mano-vinnanam" - are you referring to mind-consciousness element, mano-vi~n~nana-dhatu? If so, this refers to 76 kinds of cittas arising in both sense door and mind door processes. Or are you referring to vi~n~nana, the third link in pa.ticcasamuppaada? If so, this refers rebirth consciousness and subsequent vipaka (result) cittas. So we have to be very precise. The same applies to "mana-ayatanam". This refers to all kinds of cittas. So far, no "imagined concepts". "dhamma-tanha" - any kind of tanha is lobha cetasika, a mental factor. Again, no "imagined concepts". It doesn't matter what tanha is attached to, it's always a reality. (If you give the quote where "dhamma-tanha" is referred to, we can discuss the meaning of 'dhamma' in that context, but that's a side-issue.) So, all the examples you give so far are all realities, no computers, no imagined concepts, so far. ... > > S: Computers are not elements or khandhas, therefore they are not conditioned. They don't exist in reality. > > T: Why Computers are not elements or khandhas, and are not conditioned? ... S: Khandhas are rupas, vedana, sanna, the other 50 cetasikas and vinnana (cittas). These are paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) that are conditioned to arise and fall away. Computers are not elements. They cannot be seen, heard, smelt, tasted or touched. They do not experience anything. They are just ideas thought about. It's important to distinguish between the realities which think and the concepts thought about. The Buddha's Teachings, the development of satipatthana, concerns the direct understanding of dhammas (realities), not concepts. ... > What is "reality" you refer to here? Do you refer to the notion of not-self, Nibbana? ... S: By "reality", the Teachings refer to cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. If you look at the introduction to CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi's edited copy of the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, you'll see more detail. I'm a bit short of time right now, otherwise might quote here. Metta Sarah ===== #131369 From: sprlrt@... Date: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:20 pm Subject: Re: TA on not understanding sprlrt Hi Phil, This image, and also that of the dome of lobha, reminds me of three stages of sacca~naa.na, kicca~naa.na and kata~naa.na, with the first hole/crack allowing to see the yet undeveloped strenght needed, and the very long time required for its development, to accomplish the very tough task of breaking out of what avijja takes for nicca, sukha, atta, as it has been doing for a very long time, and in so doing conditioning their arising on and on. > Ph: Chicks in the dark, unable to break the shell, nevertheless content in ignorance. Panna to weak to break the shell, just a few rare opening in the dome of lobha, an image Ajahn uses elsewhere. > Why do I feel happy to read how weak panna is? I guess there is clinging to thinking about a story about panna developing very gradually. (Can there be clinging to a story or only to dhammas?) The object of akusala citta & cetasikas (clinging) can either be a concept (through the mind door only) or a reality (through any of the six doorways), it's not a fussy reality at all. Alberto #131370 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:43 am Subject: Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Hi Alberto Thanks, interesting point re the three levels. I happened to come across that discussion yesterday. Kudos to Maeve for asking great questions. Another question. When they were talking about clinging Sarah pointed out that there can be clinging during a Dhamma discussion too, wanting to understand. And there seemed to be talk of two kinds of clinging, a gross degree but before that something subtle that I think Ajahn called "asavas." I have heard about them before but could you or someone explain again? Thanks. I will use this thread to bring up other points from that discussion. (January 17 morning session, Thailand 2013.) Phil #131371 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:46 am Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 41. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5, `Momentary death' (cont'd): Is there any difference between living in the world of concepts and living in the world of absolute realities? What is the difference? It is actually: living in the world of ignorance and living in the world of right understanding. The world of concepts consists of cup, table, person, things. But in the absolute sense, can whatever appears be someone or something permanent? They seem to be permanent because realities arise and fall away so rapidly. It seems as if there is no arising and falling away of anything at all. Even the arising of seeing does not appear and, thus, the falling away of it cannot appear. Whatever is experienced is gone as soon as it is experienced. From birth to death there are cittas arising in processes, viithi-cittas, that experience objects through the doors of eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. Viithi-cittas are alternated by bhavanga-cittas, life-continuum, which arise in between the processes of cittas. The bhavanga-citta which does not experience sense-objects through the sense-doors experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness. The rebirth-consciousness, pa.tisandhi-citta, is vipaakacitta conditioned by kamma and this citta experiences the same object as the object experienced by the last javanacittas that arose shortly before dying. The dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness and all bhavangacittas in one lifespan. The rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta and the dying-consciousness in one lifespan are the same type of citta. The dying-consciousness is immediately followed by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life and then one is no longer the same individual. However, all accumulated kusala and akusala go on to the next life, they go on from life to life. Thus, the cycle of birth and death goes on until the dying-consciousness of the arahat. Then the end of the cycle has been reached. Acharn reminded us of three kinds of citta: The first citta (in Pali: pa.thama citta) is the bhavangacitta before anything appears. When something appears, such as seeing, hearing, there is the second citta (in Pali: dutiya citta). Finally there is the dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, of the arahat (in Pali: pacchima citta, the last citta). Each life is like this: the rebirthconsciousness arises and then bhavangacittas arise and the object is unknown, nothing appears. When something appears there are process cittas, the second kind of citta. In this way life keeps going on from moment to moment, from birth to death, again and again, until the last moment of the arahat. (To be continued) #131372 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:45 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > T: Having read carefully of your notes/explanations about the use of reality or `reality' as a translation of dhamma, I consider that it is still better to translate as `phenomenon' (including the meaning of mental objects/ideas `dhammas') according to the principal teaching of "conditioned arising" (pa.ticcasamuppaada). See the Nidana Samyutta. > ... > S: You like 'phenomenon' because you like to blur the distinction between realities and concepts. > > For example, mental objects/ideas (dhammarammana) includes all objects of cittas in the mind-door processes, real and imaginary or concepts. > > However, the dhammas (realities) which are conditioned and included in paticcasamuppada, do not include concepts because concepts are not conditioned and do not arise and pass away. > > So the names and labels are not important, but the understanding of the meaning is. > > Perhaps you'd like to quote what you have in mind from Nidana Samyutta and we can discuss further if you still think the 'conditioned arising' dhammas include imaginary concepts. > > Metta > > Sarah > p.s We're travelling to Sydney tomorrow, so please expect delays in replies for the next few days. > ===== > -------------- S: You like 'phenomenon' because you like to blur the distinction between realities and concepts. ... T: No, it is not that I like to blur the distinction between realities and concepts. Your explanations do not make clear to me, particularly, the term 'realities' for dhammas, according to Nidana Samyutta. You need to read the whole collection of Nidana Samyutta. Also check Pali-English Dictionary (PTS) for the term dhamma. Thomas #131373 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:07 am Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma thomaslaw03 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > ... > > T:: According to the teaching of "arising by causal condition" (pa.ticcasamuppaada) and "dhammas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition" (paticca-samuppannaa dhammaa) (such as in SN 12.20), > > > > any imagined concepts, conventionally used ideas are dhammas/phenomena. > ... > S: Please give me a quote which leads you to believe these are dhammas in the context under discussion- pa.ticcasamuppaada. > ... > > > > For example, the terms, mano-vinnanam "mind-consciousness" (in the factor vinnanam), mana-ayatanam "sense sphere of mind" (in salayatanam), and dhamma-tanha "craving for mental objects" (ideas), are the factors in the teaching of "arising by causal condition" and "dhammas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition". > .... > S: "Mano-vinnanam" - are you referring to mind-consciousness element, mano-vi~n~nana-dhatu? If so, this refers to 76 kinds of cittas arising in both sense door and mind door processes. Or are you referring to vi~n~nana, the third link in pa.ticcasamuppaada? If so, this refers rebirth consciousness and subsequent vipaka (result) cittas. So we have to be very precise. > > The same applies to "mana-ayatanam". This refers to all kinds of cittas. > > So far, no "imagined concepts". > > "dhamma-tanha" - any kind of tanha is lobha cetasika, a mental factor. Again, no "imagined concepts". It doesn't matter what tanha is attached to, it's always a reality. (If you give the quote where "dhamma-tanha" is referred to, we can discuss the meaning of 'dhamma' in that context, but that's a side-issue.) > > So, all the examples you give so far are all realities, no computers, no imagined concepts, so far. > ... > > > > S: Computers are not elements or khandhas, therefore they are not conditioned. They don't exist in reality. > > > > T: Why Computers are not elements or khandhas, and are not conditioned? > ... > S: Khandhas are rupas, vedana, sanna, the other 50 cetasikas and vinnana (cittas). These are paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) that are conditioned to arise and fall away. > > Computers are not elements. They cannot be seen, heard, smelt, tasted or touched. They do not experience anything. They are just ideas thought about. > > It's important to distinguish between the realities which think and the concepts thought about. > > The Buddha's Teachings, the development of satipatthana, concerns the direct understanding of dhammas (realities), not concepts. > ... > > What is "reality" you refer to here? Do you refer to the notion of not-self, Nibbana? > ... > S: By "reality", the Teachings refer to cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. > > If you look at the introduction to CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi's edited copy of the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, you'll see more detail. I'm a bit short of time right now, otherwise might quote here. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > ---------- > S: Please give me a quote which leads you to believe these are dhammas in the context under discussion- pa.ticcasamuppaada. ... I think you need to read the whole collection of Nidana Samyutta, including English translations of the texts and Pali-English Dictionary (PTS) for the term dhamma. You will find it easily for the term dhamma used in those suttas. Your explanations on 'realities' for the term 'dhammas' are deficient in clarity to me. Thomas #131374 From: "azita" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:54 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts gazita2002 hallo Rob, > Azita: I get the feeling that you just haven't yet got the link between everyday life e.g., paying your mortgage, maybe feeling stressed about where the money's coming from etc and the fact that there are conditioned parramattha dhammas arising and falling again and again as 'we' go about our daily lives. What else is there? > >Rob: Sure, I think that is a good point, and of course during everyday affairs there is always the possibility of realizing the nature of arising dhammas and having insight into the "visible object" that is interpreted as the "mortgage paper." I do understand that, and I appreciate the reminder. However, it is not quite as simple to sort out the means by which this becomes known as it is to merely talk about it and understand it intellectually. azita: you're quite right about it not being simple because I think many of us hear the Dhamma and then go on to want to have wisdom and understanding Now. Do you think that's a fair assumption? I know when I first heard the teachings I wanted clear understanding right away, now I understand that no amount of wanting/trying can make it happen. I do not want to get into a discussion about meditation v no meditation. I do not meditate, never have and have no intention to begin so you see, I have no knowledge of meditation to debate; except what I have read in suttas and Visuddhimagga. What I do know is that since being involved with dsg and even before that, having heard about citta, cetasika, rupa Nibbana, my lifestyle for many years was fairly destructive and slowly over the past 10 - 15 years, because of hearing dhamma that lifestyle has all but gone. There had been no great urgency to change but it has slowly happened that I no longer live the way I did, and this is most definitely due to listening to the dhamma. I realise Rob, that this is probably not where you wanted to go, however all I can comment on is the fact that listening and contemplating what has been heard of the Dhamma conditions sanna - memory/remembrance - to remember more often what in reality, our lives really are. If there is right thinking following, the object thought about just might be a reality. Now this is not to say this is satipatthana, in fact its probably far from it, but slowly slowly - and here's the good bit :) - over lifetimes wisdom can grow into a powerful reality and know the objects appearing one at a time thro the 5 sense doors and the mind door. Will leave the rest for a bit later patience, courage and good cheer azita #131375 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Did it ever occur to you that people come to dsg due to conditions also and that they are supposed to be there? It's vipaka isn't it? > ... > S: Whilst we just think in terms of the whole situations, we won't begin to understand conditions. While I do realize this, at the same time the experiences that are conglomerated conceptually into the concept of dsg are a preponderance of certain vipaka elements. If there is plenty of bad kamma there will be lots of unpleasant moments arising in series, even if that series is interrupted by other kinds of moments and even if those moments themselves are also varied. But in order to have the recurrent sorts of sets of vipakas that add up to reading a message, then writing a response and having them be about Dhamma, and then have this same sort of pattern repeat again for decades at certain times of the day or week -- there must be some sort of consistency to the kamma that gives rise to this relatively consistent set of vipakas, would that not be so to some extent or in some way? It doesn't seem very random in any case. > So to be a little more precise, vipaka are moments such as seeing now, hearing now, body consciousness now. "Coming to DSG..." is really just an idea. So many different dhammas from moment to moment. That is true, but we don't have every single kind of moment in thoroughly random appearances. They are sensible sets of vipaka experiences that lend themselves to certain kinds of thoughts and concepts, is that not so? So if the Buddha were to say, as he did on any number of occasions, "This kind of activity will lead to this kind of unpleasant vipaka," such as the man who kept killing animals and experienced the vipaka of being an animal that was painfully killed by a hunter for a number of lifetimes, we would understand that those vipakas are experienced in a variety of variegated moments of different kinds, but that the Buddha is pointing towards a type of vipaka which will make up the preponderance, or a certain segment at least, of a person's experience in a next "life" or "lifetimes." And those patterns do correspond to this or that group of kammas, and so on. > ... > > >Can someone choose to ignore their kamma and choose a different vipaka? Can you? Your unpleasant vipaka is to have to listen to a bunch of idiots who spout wrong view all the time. > .. > S: So seeing now is vipaka. We cannot say that the visible object seen at this moment is wholesome or unwholesome vipaka (result of good or bad deeds). We do know that moments of seeing are always accompanied by neutral feeling, however. So no "unpleasant vipaka" when seeing or hearing. > > The unpleasantness referred to such as when we think we hear a 'bunch of idiots' is the dosa and domanassa (unpleasant feeling) which arises later when there is thinking about ideas of what has been seen and heard. These are accumulated tendencies that lead to more unwholesome kamma which will bring unpleasant results in future. So how is the vipaka said to be "pleasant" or "unpleasant" vipaka as the result of kusala or akusala kamma? Is this not correct? If I am experiencing lots of unpleasant moments in a hell state, such as the hell of pins and needles [as I recall] or the hell of infinite crushing [I recall some hell states such as these,] are these not to be seen as unpleasant? Is all the unpleasantness of being burnt to death with hot oil the result of secondary feeling-reactions to the hot burning sensations? And if this is so, why do we say that even the Buddha endures physical suffering, since such suffering is all through sensory experience - which must be vipaka...? - am I confused...? The Buddha would of course not have any secondary reactive akusala to any sensory experience, so this would not apply to him. Yet he complained of aches and pains in his later years. "This body is like an old cart" that creaks and will have to be replaced soon... > >May as well see the nature of those dhammas rather than complain all day long. > ... > S: Understanding now of what appears is always most precious! That was my point in the whole thing, but I was being a little overly jovial in my presentation... :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #131376 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... philofillet Hi Rob E > While I do realize this, at the same time the experiences that are conglomerated conceptually into the concept of dsg are a preponderance of certain vipaka elements. If there is plenty of bad kamma there will be lots of unpleasant moments arising in series, even if that series is interrupted by other kinds of moments and even if those moments themselves are also varied. I wonder if thinking about and trying to work out ongoing process in a way that is logically and/or scientifically consistent might not take us away from the dhamma that is arising to be known right now. You seem to be inclined to seeking to work things out by thinking in an ongoing wrestling-with-ideas way. Then again that might be a valid aspect of developing intellectual understanding that I just happen to not be inclined to. (And not good at.) We all have different accumulated tendencies that can be understood. (And one might ask how can one understand a "tendency" unless one considers more than the one arisen dhamma? Phil > > > - - - - - - - - - - - > #131377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding nilovg Dear Phil, Op 20-jun-2013, om 22:43 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > And there seemed to be talk of two kinds of clinging, a gross > degree but before that something subtle that I think Ajahn called > "asavas." ----- N: Asavas or intoxicants are more subtle than, for example, the hindrances. Asavas keep on leaking all day, time and again. Kaama, clinging to sense objects, clinging to wrong view, to existence (bhaava) and ignorance. ----- Nina. #131378 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Dear Nina > ----- > N: Asavas or intoxicants are more subtle than, for example, the > hindrances. Asavas keep on leaking all day, time and again. Kaama, > clinging to sense objects, clinging to wrong view, to existence > (bhaava) and ignorance. I remember hearing or reading that when we see a tree or rock or whatever mundane object we *like* to recognize it as a tree etc without particularly liking it in some special way. Is that kind of liking an example of asava? I should re-read ADL, I think there is a chapter or two explaining that there are many ways to categorize defilements. Phil #131379 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding nilovg Dear Phil, Op 21-jun-2013, om 12:09 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I remember hearing or reading that when we see a tree or rock or > whatever mundane object we *like* to recognize it as a tree etc > without particularly liking it in some special way. Is that kind of > liking an example of asava? ------ N: Hard to pinpoint it in this way. T.A. would say: do not name. Nina. #131380 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:17 pm Subject: Re: TA on not understanding sprlrt Hi Phil (Nina), > > Ph: Another question. When they were talking about clinging Sarah pointed out that there can be clinging during a Dhamma discussion too, wanting to understand. And there seemed to be talk of two kinds of clinging, a gross degree but before that something subtle that I think Ajahn called "asavas." I have heard about them before but could you or someone explain again? Thanks. > ----- > N: Asavas or intoxicants are more subtle than, for example, the > hindrances. Asavas keep on leaking all day, time and again. Kaama, > clinging to sense objects, clinging to wrong view, to existence > (bhaava) and ignorance. ************************************ (Than Acharn, on the different objects of lobha, in Hua Hin, 7th, at b/f, 18m) TA: So we don't try to make something different, it's natural, it arises as sudden as seeing and hearing, so awareness and understanding can arise anytime, anywhere, and that's the right way, or the right path; if there is the intention of trying to be calm or 'I would like to be aware', it's not the understanding, that's why is so very difficult, because it's natural, and only by conditions there can be the object of understanding as anatta. Lobha changes its object, from pleasant object or sensuous object, to wanting to gain or to get understanding, and trying so hard, maybe the whole life, or half a day; and then the result is nothing, where is the lobha, where is the time? but there can be the understanding of lobha at the end, just very little, and at the end it's the best thing, to know that they're all lobha. L: ... it is hard to differentiate what is reality and what is concept. TA: But it's not understanding: you're *trying*, not understanding; we just talk, and you don't expect results, we just see whether that it's true or not, what we're talking about, like hardness, at that moment there is no seeing; to begin to see just one reality at a time, not as 'I would like to try to know it, or to experience just one object at a time', because it's in one moment of experiencing. Its great task is to eliminate avijja, ignorance, that's all. #131381 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Dear Nina > > > I remember hearing or reading that when we see a tree or rock or > > whatever mundane object we *like* to recognize it as a tree etc > > without particularly liking it in some special way. Is that kind of > > liking an example of asava? > ------ > N: Hard to pinpoint it in this way. T.A. would say: do not name. This is a familiar question but, if we say "do not name" about the reality that is arising, why did the Buddha teach about realities with so many names? Is "do not name" a reflection of accepting that our understanding is very weak compared to the understanding that elucidated realities in so much specific detail? Didn't degrees of panna arising at different moments are "ready" to understand to different degrees of detail? Phil #131382 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:52 am Subject: Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Dear Group Thank you for the transcription, Alberto. . > > > > Ph: Another question. When they were talking about clinging Sarah pointed out > that there can be clinging during a Dhamma discussion too, wanting to > understand. And there seemed to be talk of two kinds of clinging, a gross > degree but before that something subtle that I think Ajahn called "asavas." I > have heard about them .. > > TA: So we don't try to make something different, it's natural, it arises as sudden as seeing and hearing, so awareness and understanding can arise anytime, anywhere, and that's the right way, or the right path; if there is the intention of trying to be calm or 'I would like to be aware', it's not the understanding, that's why is so very difficult, because it's natural, and only by conditions there can be the object of understanding as anatta. Ph: this has to be repeated again and again. If there is trying to understand an arisen Dhamma it cannot be understanding. But surely there can be trying to understand a knotty point of theory, for examples the 17 moments of namas and the order in which they arise with one rupa. (Something like that.) so there can be trying to understand in the book but not outside the book? Phil > #131383 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Hi again Correction: > Didn't degrees of panna arising at different moments are "ready" to understand to different degrees of detail? > Should be "Different degrees of panna..." Phil #131384 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:40 pm Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... kenhowardau Hi all, I've been in Bali for the past week two more weeks to go and have only just got over some internet difficulties. (Able to read DSG but not able to sign in.) Anyway, now that I'm here, I'd better add some Dhamma content: Robert E, I think you are going to have a field day on this thread. :-) There is so much in the Tipitaka about conventional vipakka: or what *seems* like conventional vipakka. But if you remember there are only the presently arisen dhammas (no conventional things at all) it can all be understood very differently. Ken H > > S: Whilst we just think in terms of the whole situations, we won't begin to understand conditions. > > While I do realize this, at the same time the experiences that are conglomerated conceptually into the concept of dsg are a preponderance of certain vipaka elements. If there is plenty of bad kamma there will be lots of unpleasant moments arising in series, <. . .> #131385 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding nilovg Dear Phil, Op 22-jun-2013, om 0:43 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > This is a familiar question but, if we say "do not name" about the > reality that is arising, why did the Buddha teach about realities > with so many names? Is "do not name" a reflection of accepting that > our understanding is very weak compared to the understanding that > elucidated realities in so much specific detail? ------ N: What types of citta are naming realities naama and ruupa? This reminds me of the amazing conversation I had with Ann while I was in the revalidation center. Always the self comes in that wants to name, to pinpoint realities. Lost, lost again. Nina. #131386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding nilovg Dear Alberto, It is so useful what you are doing. We listen and then reading the text again really helps. So slow to sink in! Lobha, lobha, the whole day. . When can we accept this? Always wanting to name realities. Trying to interfere with conditions. Nina. Op 21-jun-2013, om 13:17 heeft sprlrt@... het volgende geschreven: > if there is the intention of trying to be calm or 'I would like to > be aware', it's not the understanding, that's why is so very > difficult, because it's natural, and only by conditions there can > be the object of understanding as anatta. > Lobha changes its object, from pleasant object or sensuous object, > to wanting to gain or to get understanding, and trying so hard, > maybe the whole life, or half a day; and then the result is > nothing, where is the lobha, where is the time? but there can be > the understanding of lobha at the end, just very little, and at the > end it's the best thing, to know that they're all lobha. #131387 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:41 pm Subject: Re: TA on not understanding sprlrt Hi Phil, > Ph: If there is trying to understand an arisen Dhamma it cannot be understanding. But surely there can be trying to understand a knotty point of theory, for examples the 17 moments of namas and the order in which they arise with one rupa. (Something like that.) I think that on this Ajahn says that all the extra details about nama and rupa (like their different duration) given in the Abhidhamma are meant just as an extra condition for a little bit more detachment from taking realities for self (i.e. the Dhamma is not a conventional subject of study, and understanding dhammas is not like conventional understanding, even at pariyatti level). Alberto #131388 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Dear Nina (Alberto) > N: What types of citta are naming realities naama and ruupa? This > reminds me of the amazing conversation I had with Ann while I was in > the revalidation center. Always the self comes in that wants to name, > to pinpoint realities. Lost, lost again. Well, what kind of cittas wrote Abhidhamma in Daily Life? It is full of details. And you often say "Abhidhamma is not in the book." Should we instead say "self trying to pinpoint dhammas is not in the book?" Thank, Alberto. You said that all the details help to condition a little detachment. I think that is possible. I don't think reflecting on Abhidhamma details needs to be done by self. I think it is important to keep the details *in* the book to avoid overreaching with lobha ditthi that wants to make panna with realities as object arise. Of course there must be a weak degree of panna involved in studying Abhidhamma in the book as well, Phil #131389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding nilovg Dear Phil, Op 22-jun-2013, om 12:09 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Well, what kind of cittas wrote Abhidhamma in Daily Life? It is > full of details. And you often say "Abhidhamma is not in the book." > Should we instead say "self trying to pinpoint dhammas is not in > the book?" ----- N: As Acharn says, Abh deals with reality now. When becoming involved in study one may forget this. ------ Nina. #131390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding nilovg Dear Alberto and Phil, Op 22-jun-2013, om 9:41 heeft sprlrt@... het volgende geschreven: > I think that on this Ajahn says that all the extra details about > nama and rupa (like their different duration) given in the > Abhidhamma are meant just as an extra condition for a little bit > more detachment from taking realities for self (i.e. the Dhamma is > not a conventional subject of study, and understanding dhammas is > not like conventional understanding, even at pariyatti level). ----- N: Very good, to understand more that naama and ruupa arise because of conditions, no self involved. Even at pariyatti level, understanding dhammas is not like conventional understanding, good to keep this im mind. Let us forget about conventional understanding! Nina. #131391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:27 pm Subject: Ann's amazing conversation, reading quotes to me. nilovg Dear friends, more quotes. -------- N: Phil, the importance of intellectual understanding is not denied, but not a self listens and considers, whereas usually this is done with an idea of self. ----- ****** Nina. #131392 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:40 am Subject: Re: Nargajunas Stance... epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I wonder if thinking about and trying to work out ongoing process in a way that is logically and/or scientifically consistent might not take us away from the dhamma that is arising to be known right now. ... We all have different accumulated tendencies that can be understood. (And one might ask how can one understand a "tendency" unless one considers more than the one arisen dhamma? I think you are right and in a sense you make my point. "Tendencies" and "accumulations" do in fact involve knowledge of more than one moment - it takes an understanding of what takes place over many moments, and these many-moment factors are a gigantic part of Abhidhamma. I think there is a major confusion in parts of this community between what can be understood directly in the moment - the nature of the presently arising dhamma - and what needs to be understood beyond that for full understanding -- the role and mechanics of kamma, tendencies and accumulations. I think that if you say that only the single dhamma has any importance that is really wrong. I don't think the path makes any sense, logically or otherwise, so that we can understand what the heck is going on, if we don't get some understanding of those multi-moment operations. Maybe that is intellectual, but can we have pariyatti ever if we don't know what's happening? Do we have to be like dumb sticks in the mud in order to realize the nature of the moment? I don't think that works out. The Buddha obviously would not know what or how to teach if you didn't take account of the multi-moment nature of samsara, as well as the fact that only one moment arises at any given time to be experienced. If we don't balance these two aspects of reality, we are stupefying ourselves and can't get adequate understanding. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #131393 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding philofillet Dear Nina (and Rob E) > Let us forget about conventional understanding! > Let us appreciate when there are moments in which understanding of realities supercedes thinking about the conventional understanding. And let us remember that those moments are rare and very valuable openings in the done of lobha, rare and valuable chick-beak-eggshell piercing moments. They come, by conditions. But if we count on them or try to make a practice out of them by wanting them we will be going as subtly wrong as the "vipasanna" meditators. If we are in a hard situation, like you with your foul-mouthed roommates at the rehabilation center, sure, good to remember just dhammas at work. Or me with my bad behaviour here. Just dhammas at work. We don't get wrapped up in painful stories that don't get us anywhere. Only moments if understanding realities get us closer to liberation. Thanks for your comments in the other post Rob E. There are not conditions for me to read long posts. But I could see from the beginning that you were talking about the need to consider multiple moments to understand tendencies. I think you're right. I have disagreed, for example, when students of Ajahn Sujin have said "every word in the tipitika is about satipatthana (i.e the presently arisen reality.) There are so many suttas that are clearly not. ( I personally think of the obese king and his bucket of grub.) But I think that it is far more valuable to student intellectually and consider (when there are conditions for it) and develop awareness of the presently arisen dhamma. You will say that by considering tendencies (conventional stories about behaviour) that conditions are created for satipatthana. I understood where you are coming from cuz I came from there before. But now I feel we can get straight to studying, considering and becoming familiar with the characteristics of present realities. We'll see if that changes. Who knows, maybe in a few years I'll be railing against "Sujinism" again. Phil P.s tapped out on iPhone sorry for any confusing typos. #131394 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:34 pm Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > ...... > > S: Please give me a quote which leads you to believe these are dhammas in the context under discussion- pa.ticcasamuppaada. > > ...... ...... Also, About a quotation from the suttas of Nidana Samyutta on the term dhammas meaning phenomena, the following translations of one sutta may be useful: SN 12.20: - Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Bhikkhus, I will teach you dependent origination and dependently arisen phenomena. " (The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, p. 550) - Choong Mun-keat: "I will teach you, bhiksus, arising by causal condition (pa.ticcasamuppaada) and dharmas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition (pa.ticcasamuppanne ca dhamme)" ( The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 150). Both Buddhist scholars translate dhammas as `phenomena' (not realities). Regards, Thomas #131395 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:12 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 42. jonoabb By Nina van Gorkom Chapter 5, `Momentary death' (cont'd): At this moment we are in the cycle of birth and death, sa.msaara. Yesterday there were seeing and thinking, hearing and thinking, and today it is the same, and so it will be in the future. We are absorbed in the objects we experience, time and again, and this is the cycle of birth and death. Acharn said: "What has disappeared does not return again. Realities arise and fall away, arise and fall away. Should one cling? Then one would cling to what has fallen away and is no more. Where should we find it? There is clinging because one does not know the truth. There are only realities that arise and fall away in succession and this does not stop. This is the cycle of birth and death, sa.msaara. There is an opportunity to begin to understand this." (To be concluded) #131396 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:31 pm Subject: TA on non-process and process cittas sprlrt (Than Acharn, in Hua Hin, 5th, pm-a, 2m30 - http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/dsgAudio.html) TA: What about just talking about three kinds of citta: the first one, the second one, and the last one; the first one, in Paali is pathama-citta, which means bhavanga (life-continuum), like now, before anything appears there must be that citta, bhavanga, so it can be named first citta because nothing appears yet; but when something appears, like seeing or hearing, all these moments are dutiya, the second citta; and the last one is the last moment of arahatta, that's all. This sums up what happens in one's life, each life is like this. Thus on bhavanga nothing appears, like patisandhi (rebirth) citta, and then bhavanga citta, no object appears, right? patisandhi citta - the object is unknown, and bhavanga citta - the object is also unknown, nothing appears, so no matter how long it is, no matter it arises and falls away in succession, they are all the pathama bhavanga, or pathama citta, just the first, in which the object does not appear at all. And at moment when, no matter what, (something) appears, whether it's sound or sight or whatever, just in this life, from morning up to now, they are what we can call second, because they are not bhavanga; until the last moment of the life of arahatta. And this is only life that keeps on going, never comes back, from moment to moment, from birth to death - just two kinds, one is pathama; and the second one is moment when object appears through different doorways, and (it's) gone completely, nothing's left. Pathama is first, and dutiya is second, and the last moment, pacchima in Paali. Now (it's) like this, no matter when, in the morning, in the afternoon, tomorrow, this life or other lives; only bhavanga and then viithi (process) citta, and the bhavanga again and then viithi citta again, and again and again, until the last moment of an arahatta - no more realities arise. #131397 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding sprlrt Dear Nina, > N: . When can we accept this? Always wanting to name realities. Trying to interfere with conditions. Yes, I know that too, always making very long stories out of very short moments, but even that is by conditions, like vitakka, always running away from the present moment to touch new objects, even if they aren't actually there, like names/concepts. Alberto #131398 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:45 pm Subject: A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma free pdf download ptaus1 Hi all, A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (general editor Bhikkhu Bodhi) is now available from Pariyatti for free to download as a pdf ebook: http://store.pariyatti.org/Comprehensive-Manual-of-Abhidhamma-A--PDF-eBook_p_436\ 2.html Also added to the Links section here on dsg. Best wishes pt #131399 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment and multi moments. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 22-jun-2013, om 18:40 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I think that if you say that only the single dhamma has any > importance that is really wrong. I don't think the path makes any > sense, logically or otherwise, so that we can understand what the > heck is going on, if we don't get some understanding of those multi- > moment operations. Maybe that is intellectual, but can we have > pariyatti ever if we don't know what's happening? ------ N: I know what you mean. When I said: let us forget about conventional understanding, it may be misunderstood. I meant it as a reminder to pay attention to what is really there. I quote from Alberto's post today: Names and concepts are not really there. Do we want to understand what is not really there? You think of the texts of Abhidhamma, many texts, but as Sarah recently wrote about Acharn's explanations: < all the extra details about > nama and rupa (like their different duration) given in the > Abhidhamma are meant just as an extra condition for a little bit > more detachment from taking realities for self (i.e. the Dhamma is > not a conventional subject of study, and understanding dhammas is > not like conventional understanding, even at pariyatti level). ------- N: I think that it is important to keep in mind detachment. If the study of texts does not lead to detachment from the self it is not so useful. ------ Nina.