#131800 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:43 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: In the dhamma sense, the term 'condition/ed' has a particular meaning. Not all conditions 'come before' that which is conditioned; some co-arise with, or even arise after, the conditioned dhamma. Thanks, Jon. The latter is intriguing. How can something arise after to condition what has come before? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #131801 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:45 pm Subject: Re: Samaadhi philofillet Hi Connie > Perhaps, but thanks for taking the trouble to answer. I guess i should hit the books... didn't i used to want to try to teach myself to read? Maybe you need Scott as man-arammanna paccaya... You guys used to steam up this place with your bilingual action... Phil #131802 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:59 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) kenhowardau Hi Thomas and Htoo, ------- <. . .> >> Htoo: I thinking 'Thomas is referring to sassata-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of existence" and to uccheda-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of non-existence. .. > Thomas: Thank you very much for this reply. > Yes, it can in meaning refer to the view (di.t.thi) of sassata (existence) and uccheda (non-existence). -------- KH: Please note Htoo said it refers to the "self-based" views of existence and non-existence. He did not say it refers to the "paramattha-dhamma-based" views of existence and non-existence. ----------------- > T: <. . .> "Now, Kaccaayana, one who with right wisdom (sammappa~n~naaya) sees the arising of the world as it really is, does not hold to the non-existence of the world." ----------------- KH: How do you interpret that quote? Do you see it as evidence of the non-existence of paramattha dhammas? If so, please explain how you interpret it that way. -------------------------- > T: "One who with right wisdom sees the ceasing of the world as it really is, does not hold to the existence of the world." -------------------------- KH: Do you interpret that as saying paramattha dhammas are non-existent? If so, how do you reconcile it with the preceding sentence? ----------------------------------------- > T: "Surely, Kaccaayana, this world mostly is attached to methods, bound to biases (upaayupaadaanaabhinivesavinibandho). But one who does not approach attachment to means, mental obstinacy, and tendency towards bias, who does not cling to it, he does not insist on "It is my self". Then, [one knows]: when suffering arises, it arises; when suffering ceases, it ceases. One is not in doubt, is not uncertain. Here, one comes to have knowledge/insight (~naa.nam) independently of others. Thus this, Kaccaayana, is "right view"." --------------------------------------- KH: Can you see, as Htoo explained, these are self-based views? They relate to existence and non-existence from the point of view of someone who is caught up in the two extremes. They do not relate to views of existence and non-existence from the point of view of someone who knows paramattha dhammas. ---------------- > T: "But one who does not approach attachment to means, mental obstinacy, and tendency towards bias, who does not cling to it, he does not insist on "It is my self". Then, [one knows]: when suffering arises, it arises; when suffering ceases, it ceases. One is not in doubt, is not uncertain. Here, one comes to have knowledge/insight (~naa.nam) independently of others. Thus this, Kaccaayana, is "right view"." --------------- KH: Do you see? The paramattha-dhamma-based view of existence is the right view. It is the Middle Way view. Paramattha dhammas do exist! ---------------------- T: "Kaccaayana, "Everything exists" (sabbam atthiiti), this is one extreme. "Everything does not exist" (sabba.m natthiiti), this is the other extreme. Kaccaayana, not approaching these two extremes, the Tathaagata (the Buddha) teaches you the Dharma by the middle [way] (majjhena): ---------------------- KH: Self-based views (views from the perspective of the two extremes) are always wrong. Regardless of whether they are views of existence or views non-existence (or views of something in between) they are always wrong. ------------------------ > T: "Conditioned by ignorance are activities; conditioned by activities is consciousness, and so forth. Thus arises this whole mass of suffering. But by the total fading away and ceasing of ignorance, activities cease; from the ceasing of activities, consciousness ceases, and so forth. Thus ceases this whole mass of suffering." ------------------------------------------- KH: This is where our Mahayana friends go astray. They think the doctrine of dependent origination refers to the existence of conditionality but not to the existence of conditioned dhammas. That is because the miss the point about *self* based views as distinct from *paramattha dhamma* based views. Ken H #131803 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > I guess it wasn't some incorrect BB thing, I see in Conditions that the 4 nama khandas arise together by mutuality/conascence condition. And citta can't arise without rupa as its base, right? .... S: Yes, always 4 nama khandhas arising together at each moment, conditioning and supporting each other in these ways. In this kamavacara realm, as you say, citta can't arise without rupa as base. In the arupabrahma realm, it's different. ... >So the khandas always arise together. ... S: The co-arising nama khandhas arise and fall away together. The rupa which is base must have already arisen, except at the moment of birth. (Remember, rupa lasts longer than nama). ... >I guess the question I asked whether atta view is akin to the khandas came from wondering whether since the khandas arise together the view of self comes from this conascence. ... S: The atta view comes from not understanding realities/khandhas as they are, but instead taking reality, such as seeing or visible object for atta in one of the 4 ways which I think Htoo elaborated on. ... >But no, because the Buddha doesn't say this ( as far as I can recall) he says seeing is self, eye is self, visible object is self etc. I think I will have a read through SN 22 to clarify this. > In a notebook I found the BB reference that impressed me. " Sakkaya ditthi = khandas as an integral unit" > > Wrong? ... S: I'm not quite sure what he means. If he means that the khandhas are taken as a being, this is sakkaya ditthi. From the commentary to the Vibhanga, transl as"Dispeller of Delusion" (PTS): *** 242: "The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness." [S: When there is an idea of "wholes" such as posture, chariot or self, there is no understanding of dhatus (elements) or khandhas and no way to understand anatta.] "<....>When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature. <...> "But the same five aggregates are no-self because of the words 'what is painful is no-self' (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self." [S: 'no exercising power over them', neither the khandhas or any ideas about them, such as postures, are at one's command]. ***** Metta Sarah ===== #131804 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:20 pm Subject: Re: smiling about his kusala. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I listened many times to the first tape in Huahin, taken at the service for Ivan. T.A. said about the loss of her father and her thinking of him that she smiled when thinking of his kusala. ... S: Yes, I remember this. I remember many, many years ago visiting the grave site of my father with my mother. She was having a difficult time and had not had a happy marriage. I gave her a similar reminder about just remembering and appreciating the good deeds and so on. Easy in Lodewijk's case! ... >Today is the date of my wedding day and I thought beforehand that it would be a sad occasion. But no, it is not, to my surprise. The day before I had a computer technicus over and remembered that Lodewijk was always so generous with extra tips and I mentioned to him that Lodewijk liked to give this always. I feel glad when remembering all Lodewijk's good qualities, and this gives me joy. Of course this is mixed with many moments with lobha but that always happens. ... S: Glad to hear this, Nina. We never know from day to day, moment to moment. We do know that kusala of any kind, including wise reflection, is never sad, however. Lodewijk was always very kind and courteous to everyone he met. Yes, lobha, dosa, so many dhammas, seeing, visible object.....none of them belonging to us or anyone else. Just passing dhammas. ... > So we can see how listening to the Dhamma helps. ... S: Yes, sometimes we have to listen to reminders many, many times before they really sink in. Like the one about how now will so soon be yesterday tomorrow. What we find important and precious in life will be of no significance very soon. Sometimes we can't even remember what we were upset about or what the delicious food was even a very short time later. Just different experiences all day long, all impermanent and gone. Metta Sarah ==== #131805 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Building up the power of concentration is a good thing if one pre-cognises that the power is not the end and the power is to use as a tool for further steps in attaining nibbaana. Is it required when understanding on naama or ruupa arising now? ... When there is understanding of aama or rupa now, samma samadhi is there already. No need to *do* anything. If there is an idea of "building up the power of concentration" it'll be bound to be akusala samadhi accompanying lobha, wishing to have such power. Metta Sarah ====== #131806 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S:As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised. > > D: I can't recall such statement ....wondering whether you would agree to that the 4 Noble Truths cannot deeply penetrated without understanding why ' the five clinging-aggregates (in other words citta,cetasikha and rupa attachment) are, in short, suffering' ?. .... S: Yes, suffering because they are impermanent. This can only be known by understanding all kinds of namas and rupas as they are when they appear. As Htoo explained very clearly in #131749 there must be sacca nana of the 4NT (very firm intellectual right understanding, followed by kicca nana, (the development of satipatthana), direct right understanding, followed by kata nana (realisation of the Truths). ... > ... > > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now? > > > > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta : > D: I assumed you would read the Culavedalla Sutta: > 'Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated." > "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?" ... S: No suggestion of "samadhi sequence" here or elsewhere in the quotes you gave. > > "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." ... S: These are the various factors that arise together with right understanding. There cannot be the path factors included under sila or samadhi without right understanding as forerunner. ... > > D:I did not say that the path factors arising in sequences .. but - as it has been stated - that the training in virtue provides the support for the training of the samadhi part , which gives support for the panna part ... S: If we are talking about the path, it is panna which is the leader. ... > What is wrong with calling the gradual training 'steps' ? quoting again: > > Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch. > > - Ud 5.5 > > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70 ... S: This is talking about the gradual path, not about which path factors arise first. The gradual training begins with right understanding now. Metta Sarah ===== #131807 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Javanas after seeing? Dunno. Assume akusala. sarahprocter... Dear Phil, (& Htoo) >P: Is the object of thinking always a concept? Can the object of thinking be a reality? The kind of concept that refers to a reality, I guess. .. S: Htoo gives a helpful answer below. Here he is referring to thinking as manovinnana cittas - those cittas whih can experience objects through the mind door. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The objects of thinking( aaramma.na of manovi~n~naa.na cittas ) > > 1. 12 o.laarika ruupas > 2. 16 sukhuma ruupas > 3. 89 cittas > 4. 52 cetasikas > 5. nibbaana > 6. pa~n~natti > > One to five and their contents are concepts for realities. .... S: Or the realities themselves, depending on the definition of thinking being used. For example. Metta Sarah ==== #131808 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. sarahprocter... Hi again Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I guess the question I asked whether atta view is akin to the khandas came from wondering whether since the khandas arise together the view of self comes from this conascence. But no, because the Buddha doesn't say this ( as far as I can recall) he says seeing is self, eye is self, visible object is self etc. I think I will have a read through SN 22 to clarify this. ... S: Because dhammas arise and fall away so rapidly and because there is no clear distinction of those realities which can experience an object (namas) and those which don't experience anything (rupas), they are taken for a whole, a thing. I don't see the problem as being the co-arising of namas, but the 'curtain of ignorance' which covers up the truth about the reality experienced, the nama or rupa appearing now. You have a lot of good qus to follow up at KK if you're able to come! Metta Sarah ==== #131809 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Do we have to think a lot? sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Today I heard this exchange from India 2004, Pattna pt.4: > > Jon: well suppose compassion arises, there is bound to be thoughts that follow (about what is to be done to help) > > AS: Do we have to think a lot? > > Jon: well I suppose we think a lot (about anything) > > AS: Think less. > > ********** > > > I found this interesting. Often we hear that thinking isn't the problem, it's just another reality to be known, but here AS is suggesting the value of thinking less. Of course this is in a proper context, that when there is awareness of realities, there is less getting caught up in stories about realities. Obviously she is not saying that we should try to think less. That would be self at work, trying to control dhammas, and would be utterly mad. ( You can be sure there are lots of teachers that teach it, though. ) > > Do we have to think a lot? Usually yes, by accumulated habits. Should we try to stop? Nope. Will there be less thinking if there is more awareness of realities. Yes. We will think less. Should there be trying to have awareness of realities so there will be less thinking? > Nope. .... S: Spot on! Gradually right understanding will see that it is the thinking with ignorance and attachment that is so useless. Metta Sarah ==== #131810 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:52 pm Subject: Re: smiling about his kusala. philofillet Dear Nina (and Sarah) I enjoyed reading about your remembering Lodewijk's kusala. As Sarah said, easy in his case. Perhaps when we are still together we can remember to praise each others' kusala more often. (I don't hesitate to say this to you because I know you discussed Dhamma with Lodewijk so often which is the most valuable gift a couple can give to each ither.) As you say there will often be lobha. Yesterday Naomi again noted how I always always always encourage her with positive comments and words of praise. But this could just be increasing her dependency on me. She still hasn't awoken to Djamma at all. It seems a bit unlikely that she will, she is fiercely interested in social justice and the hardships of disadvantaged people in society and that gets in the way of opening fully to Dhamma, in my opinion. I may be wrong. Phil #131811 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:54 pm Subject: Re: Do we have to think a lot? philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for your explanation on the several posts. I have bookmarked them for re-reading. No KK in September I'm afraid but I do expect to go in January. Phil #131812 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:14 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) htoonaing... Thomas: Dear Htoo, > Thomas: About Pali texts relevant to the Heart Sutra, or to the middle way (empty of the two extremes), see SN 22.90 or SN 12.15(Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 60-66,192-199). The connection between not-self (anatta) and the middle way is clearly found in the Pali texts. > Also, 'the emptiness' teachings indicated in the Heart Sutra are closely relevant to the middle way, meaning `empty (devoid) of the two extremes': the self-based view of existence and the self-based view of non-existence (Cf. also Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism, pp. 34-6). ----------- > Htoo: I thinking 'Thomas is referring to sassata-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of existence" and to uccheda-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of non-existence. .. Thomas: Thank you very much for this reply. Yes, it can in meaning refer to the view (di.t.thi) of sassata (existence) and uccheda (non-existence). But if according to the above-mentioned suttas SN 22.90 or SN 12.15, the Pali term for existence is atthitaa, and for non-existence is natthitaa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo Naing: Atthitaa = atthi + taa, natthitaa = natthi + taa Taa is a suffix indicating 'hood' 'condition'. Naama arises and immediately falls away. Immediately after falling away, naama arises without interruption. In this, because since naama falls away the idea of permanency (sassata ditthi) is destroyed. Because since naama immediately arises without interruption, the idea of non-existance is destroyed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas: The teaching is about the two extremes -- -- -- ceases this whole mass of suffering." ------- Regards, Thomas ------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing #131813 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:49 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) philofillet Hi Sarah (Htoo) > ... > When there is understanding of aama or rupa now, samma samadhi is there already. No need to *do* anything. > > If there is an idea of "building up the power of concentration" it'll be bound to be akusala samadhi accompanying lobha, wishing to have such power. > It's easy to understand how people go wrong in this day and age. Reading suttas in translation with insufficient/ unskillful commentariat notes by the translator. For example this evening I am reading through SN 35. I came across SN 35:99 with its exhortation to concentration and such lines as " a Bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are." A footnote led me to hope that BB would provide the correct teaching as you have done above. But no such thing, just a note about the sumikarity of this sutta to another. So the eager reader is left with his belief in the concentrated person reinforced and off he goes on silly endeavors rooted in lobha ditthi. Reading suttas without an appreciation of Abhidhamma snd correct explanation by wisw friends really is a dangerous thing. #131814 From: sprlrt@... Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:16 pm Subject: Re: TA on gocara sprlrt Hi Phil, Ph: I wonder if "difficult" is the right word. Subtle? Rarefied? A: I like your first alternative better, anyway I think that, as a general rule, words on Dhamma are only useful insofar as they are a condition for detachment from the idea of a self owning or being the five khandhas, or, they are only an introduction to that, as Ajahn says. Alberto #131815 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:59 pm Subject: Re: The second question philofillet Hi again Azita > > > > > > I'd like to answer these questions from what I understand. > > > > > > > > "What is seeing?' Seeing is a citta which experiences visible object only. > > > > > > > > "Is there seeing now" yes, because visible object appears. > > > > > > > > "Does seeing appear?" the citta which sees? I have to answer no, because there is certainly no precise knowing of that particular citta. > > > > > > > > "is there understanding of seeing that appears now?" theoretical understanding maybe, but no precise understanding of the reality of seeing now. > > > > > > Ph: I think your answer sound correct. I just wonder about "precise understanding." Does there have to be precise understanding for us to say that a dhamma appears? > > I just came across a sentence in SPD which kind of wowed me: "Tgere cannot be a citta that does not know anything." Even bhavangas cittas *know* an object though obviously that knowing/cognizing is different than our conventional understanding of knowing. The Dhamma is so subtle and deep, our puddling panna can only scratch the surface, but as you say patience, good cheer and Christ, what the hell was the third one? Phil #131816 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:02 am Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: Hi Thomas and Htoo, --- --- --- --- KH: This is where our Mahayana friends go astray. They think the doctrine of dependent origination refers to the existence of conditionality but not to the existence of conditioned dhammas. That is because the miss the point about *self* based views as distinct from *paramattha dhamma* based views. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just asked Thomas what he wrote was whether about sassata ditthi and uccheda ditthi. " Sassato loko vaa asassato loko?" The monk Saati was engaged in "sassata ditthi". It is something like 'there are life after life and finally enter nibbaana'. "Uccheda ditthi" on the other hand is something like "after this current life there is nothing to exist and nothing to follow." With Metta, Htoo Naing #131817 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:36 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hi Sarah (Htoo) > ... > When there is understanding of aama or rupa now, samma samadhi is there already. No need to *do* anything. > If there is an idea of "building up the power of concentration" it'll be bound to be akusala samadhi accompanying lobha, wishing to have such power. It's easy to understand how people go wrong in this day and age. Reading suttas in translation with insufficient/ unskillful commentariat notes by the translator. For example this evening I am reading through SN 35. I came across SN 35:99 with its exhortation to concentration and such lines as " a Bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are." A footnote led me to hope that BB would provide the correct teaching as you have done above. But no such thing, just a note about the sumikarity of this sutta to another. So the eager reader is left with his belief in the concentrated person reinforced and off he goes on silly endeavors rooted in lobha ditthi. Reading suttas without an appreciation of Abhidhamma snd correct explanation by wisw friends really is a dangerous thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil and Sarah, I support Phil. In the case where translation to a language and then translation back to original language it can not be identical. That is why I have been studying Paa.li as far as I can. I read both Myanmar translations and English translations on dhammas in tipitakas. These must be followed by checking with personal experience according to the texts' descriptions. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131818 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:15 am Subject: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, In vipassanaa practice and vipassanaa things one has to explore what the purifications are. In these seven purifications siila-visuddhi or purification of morality comes first. This has been delineated in the previous post. Understanding has many different levels as written in V-20 DT-907. As NEP is led by sammaa-ditthi this siila-visuddhi or purification of morality has to be led by understanding even though this understanding is still not true sammaa-ditthi of NEP yet. Siila is a practice. Siila-magga`ngas are not practice but cetasikas. Here I say siila is a practice but it is also led by citta and cetasikas, among which viratii cetasikas or avoiding-mental-factors are the most important after panna if this siila is viva.t.ta-siila or transcendental morality. Siila is two kinds. They are avoiding-siila (vaaritta-siila) and abiding-siila (caaritta-siila). The practice of kammatthaana is one of caaritta-siila. The term `siila' itself means `practice' `habit'. To be more accurate siila-visuddhi can be said that it is viratii-siila. Kilesa or defilements have three level with respect to kammic actions. They are viitikkama kilesaa, pariyu.t.thaana kilesaa, and anusaya kilesaa. Viitikkama kilesa is associated with committing kaaya-dvaara-kamma (bad actions happening at kamma-dvaara-kaaya-dvaara) and vacii-dvaara-kamma(bad actions happening at kamma-dvaara-vacii-dvaara). That is bad bodily actions of `killing, stealing, wrongly practicing on sensual things_adultery, alcohol drinking, using intoxicants which change mental images' and bad verbal actions of `telling lie, saying unbearable rude words, saying words in order to split beloved friends, and saying unfruitful things. The middle level of kilesa is `pariyu.t.thaana kilesa' and it can be suppressed by attaining samaadhi or by attaining jhaanas during which there is no akusala at all and seems purified. This level of kilesa will be dealt with afther siila-visuddhi. The third level of kilesa is that there is seemingly no akusala (that is there is no akusala at that time even though akusala might arise at a later time when there are conditions arising of akusala dhamma. This level of kilesa is called anusaya kilesa or it is defilement-potentials. This level will be discussed later in coming posts. For lay people it seems enough if they keep 5 precepts . But in real it is not enough for those who are doing satipatthaana. 5 precepts have to be modified in cases of people who have been practicing satipatthana. Killing is the worst and to be avoided. But satipathaana-practitioners have to avoid all dosa which may lead to killing. Stealing is the worst and to be avoided. Also stealing-related things have to be avoided. Adultery is the worst and to be avoided. But for satipatthana, all kinds of sex have to be avoided. These are supporting conditions for sammaa-kammanta. Regarding speech, telling lie is the worst and to be avoided. All other speeches related to telling-lie have to be avoided. If this happen musaavaada or telling-lie, pharusa-vaacaa or telling unbearing bad words, pisu.na-vaacaa or telling words which lead to or may lead to separation of beloved friends, and telling unfruitful speeches are all already avoided. Suraameraya-majja-pamaada-.t.thaana or the 5th precept is already in 3rd precept. If above things are avoided the 8th of aajiiva.t.thamaka-siila has already been built. For vipassanaa 5 precepts(pa~nca-siila), or 8 precepts (a.t,tha`nga-sammannaagata.m-siila) or ascetic-8 precepts or aajiiva.t.thamaka-siila should be built. If simple 5 precepts is used it has to be sex-free siila. These are for lay people. For monks they have to abide according to vinaya and they have to enter siima (building where sa.mgha-kammas are done) twice a month and have to say they are free from wrong-doing or wrong-saying. Or if some monks have committed small rules they have to be treated according to vinaya-laws. Otherwise there will hindering to arising of magga citta. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-21 DT-908 #131819 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:38 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) philofillet Dear Htoo > For vipassanaa 5 precepts(pa~nca-siila), or 8 precepts (a.t,tha`nga-sammannaagata.m-siila) or ascetic-8 precepts or aajiiva.t.thamaka-siila should be built. If simple 5 precepts is used it has to be sex-free siila. I have never heard of 5 precepts being sex free. Is this a Mahasi invention or a Htoo invention? Or somewhere in the commentaries? Phil > > V-21 DT-908 > #131820 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:18 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >When there is understanding of aama or rupa now, samma samadhi is >there already. No need to *do* anything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Samma-samadhi is frequently described as 4 Jhanas. If that sort of understanding is Jhana as part of samma-samadhi which is part of N8P, then it is correct. >If there is an idea of "building up the power of concentration" ??>it'll be bound to be akusala samadhi accompanying lobha, wishing to ?>have such power. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still great. Lobha for Dhamma can lead to Anagami stage. Do you propose that lobha for expensive clothing, jewelry, cars, travel, etc to be better than this evil lobha for Jhana? Is instructions after instructions saying how samma-samadhi is required is wrong? With best wishes, Alex #131821 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:26 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) kenhowardau Hi all, Alex wrote: ---- > Do you propose that lobha for expensive clothing, jewelry, cars, travel, etc to be better than this evil lobha for Jhana? > Is instructions after instructions saying how samma-samadhi is required is wrong? ---- KH: I believe we can put it to the test here and now. Which is the greatest of all evils, is it perhaps greed and theft? Is it violent crime? Or is it wrong view? Whenever greed and violence occur there are ultimately only dhammas, aren't there? Ultimately there is no one who is causing harm and no one who is being harmed. So everything is fine! But what if we have wrong understanding? What if we reject the Buddha's teaching and believe instead that there is control over greed and violence? In that case we are lost in a murky world in which people are committing crimes and suffering punishment and from which no escape can be found. So the proof is incontrovertible; wrong view is infinitely worse than greed or violence. Ken H #131822 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? philofillet Dear group I read on p.30 of SPD the above, "rupas of the body cannot arise without citta." I can understand that is true about pasada rupas but aren't there "rupas of the body" that are not pasada rupas and therefore can arise without citta? Phil #131823 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:36 am Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) thomaslaw03 --- "Ken H" wrote: > > KH: Do you see it as evidence of the non-existence of paramattha dhammas? Do you interpret that as saying paramattha dhammas are non-existent? Paramattha dhammas do exist! Self-based views (views from the perspective of the two extremes) are always wrong. Regardless of whether they are views of existence or views non-existence (or views of something in between) they are always wrong. ... Thomas: The term `paramattha' and its contents (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana) (see p. 25 in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhama, ed. by Bhikkhu Bodhi) are simply not found in all suttas, particularly the SN suttas. According to the SN suttas, all dhammas `phenomena' are arisen by condition and ceased by condition. They are "anicca, dukkha, and anatta". The teaching of conditioned dhammas, in both arising and ceasing modes, is the middle way. That is, it avoids the two extremes by affirming neither 'existence' nor 'non-existence', neither externalism nor nihilism. 'Right view' in the SN suttas consists in fully seeing conditioned dhammas `phenomena' in both arising and ceasing modes for oneself (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 195) ---------------- > Thomas: ... "Conditioned by ignorance are activities; conditioned by activities is consciousness, and so forth. Thus arises this whole mass of suffering. But by the total fading away and ceasing of ignorance, activities cease; from the ceasing of activities, consciousness ceases, and so forth. Thus ceases this whole mass of suffering." -------------- > KH: This is where our Mahayana friends go astray. They think the doctrine of dependent origination refers to the existence of conditionality but not to the existence of conditioned dhammas. > That is because the miss the point about *self* based views as distinct from *paramattha dhamma* based views. Thomas: Are you again making it up for your Buddhist history in India? Thomas #131824 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:10 am Subject: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) htoonaing... Phil: Dear Htoo > For vipassanaa 5 precepts(pa~nca-siila), or 8 precepts (a.t,tha`nga-sammannaagata.m-siila) or ascetic-8 precepts or aajiiva.t.thamaka-siila should be built. If simple 5 precepts is used it has to be sex-free siila. Phil: I have never heard of 5 precepts being sex free. Is this a Mahasi invention or a Htoo invention? Or somewhere in the commentaries? Phil > V-21 DT-908 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said to include abrahmacariyaa (sex free). This is a part of uposatha siila of 8 precepts not of 5 precepts. Satipatthaana if practiced for 7 years may attain arahatta magga. If this is intervened with sex it may take more than 7 years. Vipassanaa in short is to see 1. arising and falling away 2. dispassion on naama and ruupa 3. overcome conditioned dhammas whilr facing nibbaana Sex is sensual pleasure. Sensual pleasure is away from nibbaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing (if someone cannot avoid he or she may practice it but must not break the 3rd of 5 precepts which is having sex with person who is not of his or her own partner.) #131825 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:18 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) htoonaing... Alex: Dear Sarah, all, > >When there is understanding of aama or rupa now, samma samadhi is >there already. No need to *do* anything. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Samma-samadhi is frequently described as 4 Jhanas. If that sort of understanding is Jhana as part of samma-samadhi which is part of N8P, then it is correct. > > >If there is an idea of "building up the power of concentration" ??>it'll be bound to be akusala samadhi accompanying lobha, wishing to ?>have such power. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex: Still great. Lobha for Dhamma can lead to Anagami stage. Do you propose that lobha for expensive clothing, jewelry, cars, travel, etc to be better than this evil lobha for Jhana? Is instructions after instructions saying how samma-samadhi is required is wrong? With best wishes, Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think this is due to misunderstanding on dhamma. Upanissaya paccaya should have been learnt. Kusala condition akusala, akusala condition kusala. Kusala condition abyaakata, abyaakata condition kusala. Akusala condition abyaakata, abyaakata condition akusala. (Ki~nci kaale) With Metta, Htoo Naing #131826 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:21 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) philofillet dear Htoo > > > For vipassanaa 5 precepts(pa~nca-siila), or 8 precepts (a.t,tha`nga-sammannaagata.m-siila) or ascetic-8 precepts or aajiiva.t.thamaka-siila should be built. If simple 5 precepts is used it has to be sex-free siila. > > Phil: > > I have never heard of 5 precepts being sex free. Is this a Mahasi invention or a Htoo invention? Or somewhere in the commentaries? > > > Htoo : I said to include abrahmacariyaa (sex free). This is a part of uposatha siila of 8 precepts not of 5 precepts. Ok. Your sentence above "if simple 5 precepts is used it has to be sex-free siila" has been corrected, thanks. Phil #131827 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:26 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) htoonaing... Ken H: Hi all, > Alex wrote: > ---- > > Do you propose that lobha for expensive clothing, jewelry, cars, travel, etc to be better than this evil lobha for Jhana? > > > Is instructions after instructions saying how samma-samadhi is required is wrong? > ---- > > KH: I believe we can put it to the test here and now. Which is the greatest of all evils, is it perhaps greed and theft? Is it violent crime? Or is it wrong view? > > Whenever greed and violence occur there are ultimately only dhammas, aren't there? Ultimately there is no one who is causing harm and no one who is being harmed. So everything is fine! > > But what if we have wrong understanding? What if we reject the Buddha's teaching and believe instead that there is control over greed and violence? In that case we are lost in a murky world in which people are committing crimes and suffering punishment and from which no escape can be found. > > So the proof is incontrovertible; wrong view is infinitely worse than greed or violence. > > Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This not not the case. Ahetuka ditthi, akiriya ditthi, and natthika ditthi are the worst. Other ditthi cannot bring down to hell directly. Ditthi as a dhhamma is only eradicated at the time when sotaapatti magga citta arise and after arising of that citta there is no more ditthi. Otherwise whoever understand dhamma is not free from ditthi. With Metta, Htoo Naing (The function of stream-entering-path-consciousness is to eradicate wrong view. Without this there can still be wrong view and cannot be eradicated.) #131828 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:39 am Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear group > > I read on p.30 of SPD the above, "rupas of the body cannot arise without citta." I can understand that is true about pasada rupas but aren't there "rupas of the body" that are not pasada rupas and therefore can arise without citta? > > Phil ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Of course it can. Conditions for arising ruupa are four. They are kamma, citta, utu, and aahaara. 1. with citta is kammaja ruupa or kamma-generated ruupa(they all are pasada, hadaya, and jiivita ruupa) 2.with utu all ruupa can arise without kamma things 3. ahaaraa also give rise to ruupa which may or may not have kamma things. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131829 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:45 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Dear Htoo (ken H) > Ditthi as a dhhamma is only eradicated at the time when sotaapatti magga citta arise and after arising of that citta there is no more ditthi. Correct. > Otherwise whoever understand dhamma is not free from ditthi. But whoever in whom understanding of and concern about ditthi does not develop know does not understand Dhamma correctly. There are some people who use the eradication of ditthi at sotapamna as an excuse for being cavalier (careless) about ditthi now. It is as if they believe the eradication of ditthi comes out of the blue, and *pop* it's gone. It has to be weakened first. People who follow practices rooted in lobha ditthi are strengthening ditthi, not weakening it. (Technically speaking there is only this moment so "strengthening/ weakening ditthi" is just a conventional way to express it.) Phil #131830 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:05 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ---- > T: KH: Do you see it as evidence of the non-existence of paramattha dhammas? Do you interpret that as saying paramattha dhammas are non-existent? Paramattha dhammas do exist! Self-based views (views from the perspective of the two extremes) are always wrong. Regardless of whether they are views of existence or views non-existence (or views of something in between) they are always wrong. ... Thomas: The term `paramattha' and its contents (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana) (see p. 25 in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhama, ed. by Bhikkhu Bodhi) are simply not found in all suttas, particularly the SN suttas. ---- KH: You have made a summary compilation of my questions and then refused to answer any of them. Why? --------------------- > T: According to the SN suttas, all dhammas `phenomena' are arisen by condition and ceased by condition. They are "anicca, dukkha, and anatta". The teaching of conditioned dhammas, in both arising and ceasing modes, is the middle way. That is, it avoids the two extremes by affirming neither 'existence' nor 'non-existence', neither externalism nor nihilism. 'Right view' in the SN suttas consists in fully seeing conditioned dhammas `phenomena' in both arising and ceasing modes for oneself (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p.195) -------------------- KH: In previous posts you have said categorically that paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) do not exist. So why are you talking now about conditioned dhammas arising and ceasing? What are those conditioned dhammas if not absolute realities? ------------------------- > Thomas: ... "Conditioned by ignorance are activities; conditioned by activities is consciousness, and so forth. -------------------------- KH: "Through ignorance are conditioned the "sankharas," i.e., the rebirth conditioning volitions (cetana) or "kamma formations." (Nyanatiloka: Buddhist Dictionary) The doctrine of Dependant Origination explains how cetana and other absolute realities are conditioned to arise. ---------------- > T: Thus arises this whole mass of suffering. But by the total fading away and ceasing of ignorance, activities cease; from the ceasing of activities, consciousness ceases, and so forth. Thus ceases this whole mass of suffering." -------------- KH: Yes, but why are you quoting that? How does it prove the Mahayana contention that conditioned dhammas do not really exist (do not have "own being")? --------------------------------- >> KH: This is where our Mahayana friends go astray. They think the doctrine of dependent origination refers to the existence of conditionality but not to the existence of conditioned dhammas. >> That is because the miss the point about *self* based views as distinct from *paramattha dhamma* based views. > Thomas: Are you again making it up for your Buddhist history in India? --------------------------------- KH: I'm not talking about history. I offered an explanation of the suttas you had quoted. You thought they denied the existence of conditioned dhammas. I tried to show you they actually denied the validity of self-based views. But you are not interested in that, you are only interested in your history books. Why are Mahayanists so interested in the early history of Buddhism? Why are they interested in pre-Mahayana texts? The answer must be that they are trying to find evidence in them of Mahayana teachings. Otherwise people would ask the obvious question: "Why did the Buddha originally teach one Dhamma only to later teach a completely different, contradictory, Dhamma?" Ken H #131831 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:14 pm Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? philofillet Dear Htoo > > I read on p.30 of SPD the above, "rupas of the body cannot arise without citta." I can understand that is true about pasada rupas but aren't there "rupas of the body" that are not pasada rupas and therefore can arise without citta? > > > > Phil > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Htoo: > > Of course it can. Conditions for arising ruupa are four. They are kamma, citta, utu, and aahaara. > > 1. with citta is kammaja ruupa or kamma-generated ruupa(they all are pasada, hadaya, and jiivita ruupa) > > 2.with utu all ruupa can arise without kamma things > > 3. ahaaraa also give rise to ruupa which may or may not have kamma things. Thanks. I think "rupas of the body" might just be a confusing translation for pasada rupas. Phil #131832 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:06 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) thomaslaw03 --- "Ken H" wrote: > ... > T: According to the SN suttas, all dhammas `phenomena' are arisen by condition and ceased by condition. They are "anicca, dukkha, and anatta". The teaching of conditioned dhammas, in both arising and ceasing modes, is the middle way. That is, it avoids the two extremes by affirming neither 'existence' nor 'non-existence', neither externalism nor nihilism. 'Right view' in the SN suttas consists in fully seeing conditioned dhammas `phenomena' in both arising and ceasing modes for oneself (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p.195) -------------------- .... > KH: ... paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) about conditioned dhammas arising and ceasing? What are those conditioned dhammas if not absolute realities? The doctrine of Dependant Origination explains how cetana and other absolute realities are conditioned to arise. conditioned dhammas do not really exist (do not have "own being")? Thomas: According to the SN suttas, dhammas `phenomena' are arisen (existed) by condition, not by `own being', and thus not belonging to self (anatta). Also, according to the SN suttas, there is no need to name paramattha dhammas or absolute realities, but to see (and to know) directly body and mind phenomena `dhammas' as they really are as `anicca, dukkha, and anatta', as `the four truths', and as `the middle way'. --------------------------------- > KH: This is where our Mahayana friends go astray. They think the doctrine of dependent origination refers to the existence of conditionality but not to the existence of conditioned dhammas. > That is because the miss the point about *self* based views as distinct from *paramattha dhamma* based views. > Thomas: Are you again making it up for your Buddhist history in India? --------------------------------- > KH: I'm not talking about history. I offered an explanation of the suttas you had quoted. You thought they denied the existence of conditioned dhammas. I tried to show you they actually denied the validity of self-based views. > But you are not interested in that, you are only interested in your history books. > Why are Mahayanists so interested in the early history of Buddhism? Why are they interested in pre-Mahayana texts? The answer must be that they are trying to find evidence in them of Mahayana teachings. Otherwise people would ask the obvious question: "Why did the Buddha originally teach one Dhamma only to later teach a completely different, contradictory, Dhamma?" Thomas: Very interesting speculations indeed. Regards, Thomas #131833 From: "azita" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:34 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) gazita2002 Hallo Htoo, Htoo: This not not the case. Ahetuka ditthi, akiriya ditthi, and natthika ditthi are the worst. Other ditthi cannot bring down to hell directly. azita: Don't these classes of ditthi come under miccha ditthi which is wrong view? patience, courage and good cheer azita #131834 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Before I forget, I just want to say that I thought your post #131749 Vipassana 017 discussing the Dhammacakkapavattaa Sutta and 4NT was the best since your return. Very clear and useful! Back to this topic.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Htoo: > > I am not writing on understanding here. Understanding parts have been > done in earlier DTs. I wrote 'walking' that is during the action of walking. Word-repeating is not main thing here. Nothing is control here when walking. Arising mind one after another are being contemplated. Direction can be to naama things or ruupa things. .... S: Why is there any selection at all about what is being contemplated at this or any other time? Isn't this the opposite of understanding with detachment? .... > Sarah: > > This is the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, the opposite of developing understanding and awarness naturally, no matter what realities arise at this moment. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Magga citta will never never arise naturally. Actually following realities. When in walking ( or sitting, or lying, or standing) arising things are kept being seen. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Dhammas can only ever arise naturally - even magga citta. Sabbe dhamma anatta! Conditioned realities. .... > Sarah: > > It is the (wrong) idea of trying to control or guide realities, not understanding their conditioned nature at all. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is not true. Nothing is controlled. Guidance is necessary. Without guidance may lead to unfruitful. The part understanding is as I wrote in today post DT 904 in sacca-~naa.nas of 12 sacca-~naa.na. > Here in walking or sitting or standing or lying is for kicca-~naa.nas. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Even what we call "guidance" are simply moments of thinking which are conditioned too. There can be understanding and awareness anywhere, anytime at all of any object which appears ...naturally. Kicca nana - to perform.... the development of satipatthana. The right understanding of the 4NT beginning with the understanding of the khandhas subject to clinging. For example, visible object which appears now is khandha which can be known directly when it appears. No need to think of posture or any activity or special guidance at all. Just the element which is seen at this very moment for an instant. The same applies to seeing, hearing or any other conditioned dhamma appearing now. It's not a matter of focussing or attending or of self doing anything at all. Just understanding what appears! .... > > >H: During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken. > ... > S: This is just thinking about one's own body, concentrating on one's body, not the understanding of realities, let alone the impermanence of those realities. > ... > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You had better fulfill all bojjha`ngas and magga`ngas. If you are fulfilling then you will see that arising dhammas have so and so characters as your own understanding not by-heart-learnt things. ... S: The understanding has to begin to develop now by becoming familiar with and knowing what appears. No self to fulfill or do anything. This is why we talk a lot about different realities - in order to see that there is nothing else. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >H: This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana. > ... > S: Again, I disagree. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Why not? ... S: Actually, it depends on the way of counting the vipassana nanas and whether it starts at the third stage of tender insight (sammasana nana) as you indicate or at the first stage (nama-rupa vipassana nana) which I was thinking of. I believe there are other ways as well. So we're both correct . I added the following in my comment: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: > > First there has to begin to be the clear understanding of namas and rupas now and the distinction - just those realities which experience an object and those which don't experience anything. No self, no body, no walking, no pressing down at all. Metta Sarah ===== #131835 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:46 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) ptaus1 Hi all, > But whoever in whom understanding of and concern about ditthi does not develop know does not understand Dhamma correctly. There are some people who use the eradication of ditthi at sotapamna as an excuse for being cavalier (careless) about ditthi now. ... > People who follow practices rooted in lobha ditthi are strengthening ditthi, not weakening it. (Technically speaking there is only this moment so "strengthening/ weakening ditthi" is just a conventional way to express it.) In light of recent discussions on lobha and ditthi, I was wondering lately regarding thinking and discussing Dhamma. While there can certainly be kusala pariyatti moments on such occasions - so moments when panna arises in the midst of all the thinking, still, these moments are likely to be rare, I take it. So, then, most of the other moments of thinking and discussing Dhamma are likely to be akusala. In that sense, I take it there would be a lot of moments of lobha. But, that's just lobha, so to speak. More importantly, there could also be moments of lobha and ditthi. I take it this could happen even if the thinking is "correct", i.e. there's an intellectual belief in kamma, in anatta, in conditionality, parramattha dhammas, etc, but all this still wouldn't preclude the arising of ditthi when there's thinking about these things. In that regard, how would a moment of lobha and ditthi differ from a moment of just lobha - when thinking about Dhamma? For example, would it have to do with speculative (intellectual) view that only this is right and everything else is wrong even though there's no actual panna that would know this first-hand? Would it have to do with speculating on the subject without panna actually knowing these things at the time - e.g. speculating about eye-sense being anatta, without actual panna ever having known eye-sense directly? Thanks Best wishes pt #131836 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:09 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > > Mahaasii instruct to concentrate on abdomen. Rising and falling. AT first call in the mind as 'rising and falling'. Later instructed to concentrate on the sense of 'tenseness' and 'looseness'. Paramattha is there. It is vaayo. Vaayo here works as object. It is ruupa. It is vayo pho.t.thabba. So it is kaayaanupassanaa. > ... > S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the Tipitaka or ancient commenteris, no first "call in the mind as 'rising and falling' etc, then the later insturctions you mention. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is because disparity between two persons two people. Your brain's wave length and Mahasi Sayadaw's brain's wave length are totally unmatched. ... S: I think that what matters is what the Buddha taught. There is no reference to concentrating on the abdomen in the ancient Pali texts. . >S: Such instructions are not compatible with the development of satipatthana and the understanding of dhammas as anatta. ---------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: > > They are based on an idea of a self being able to select an object and a looking for a short-cut, a simplification to develop awareness, motivated by a wish for results, a growth of understanding, but not an understanding of what realities, such as hardness, motion are. There is no understanding of what is meant by kaayaanupassanaa at such times. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is totally wrong. > > There are things which stop arising of magga ~naa.na. One of them is accusation on simless saints. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- .. S: I have no interest in 'accusations' - I'm only interested in discussing realities and the path as taught by the Buddha. ... -------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: > > There are always realities - it doesn't depend on the way one walks but on the understanding as to whether there is any awareness. If there is any idea of slowing down and trying to be aware, it is wrong view and practice which will just impede such awareness. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is why some follow one tradition and another follow another tradition. Nissayas are different. You can choose not to meditate. You can choose to understand dhamma arising now whatever way you want. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Actually, no one to choose anything....just more conditioned dhammas rolling on. ... > Can anatta be seen directly without anicca? ... S: If there is not the understanding of dhammas as dhammas, namas as namas, anatta, rupas as rupas, anatta and the realisation of the the first two tender insights, there will never be the understanding of dhammas as anicca. Here I am referring to the specific characteristics of realities. ... > If go through abhidhammaa more than 100,000 dhammas and these cannot be directly seen in real life. ... S: We don't have to count dhammas. What appears can be known, first by intellectual right understanding then by direct right understanding. It depends on accumulations as to what dhammas may be known now. I greatly appreciate your contributions and the discussions once more, Htoo. It doesn't matter that there are disagreements - that's why we're here discussing! Metta Sarah ===== #131837 From: "Tony H" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:31 pm Subject: A Challenge - KH/Thomas tony.humphreys KH: This is where our Mahayana friends go astray. They think the doctrine of dependent origination refers to the existence of conditionality but not to the existence of conditioned dhammas. Do they??? Where is your evidence for this (huge) assumption? With regards to this particular debate I suggest we turn the tables. I have offered several refutations to your view regarding the realities of Dhammas as separate from the mind. Maybe you could refute the Prasangika stance. That would be interesting. If it helps I will construct a salient statement that you can use as a reference point. If you're successful I will turn away from the Prasangika and subscribe to your views in a heartbeat :) Tony... #131838 From: "Tony H" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:39 pm Subject: Teaching according to capacity.... KH tony.humphreys KH: Why are Mahayanists so interested in the early history of Buddhism? Why are they interested in pre-Mahayana texts? The answer must be that they are trying to find evidence in them of Mahayana teachings. Otherwise people would ask the obvious question: "Why did the Buddha originally teach one Dhamma only to later teach a completely different, contradictory, Dhamma?" Not everyone can grasp the Buddhas intentions regarding Shunyata. For some, Dependent Origination and Impermanance are sufficiently difficult to grasp. So the existence of two distinct levels of reality is beyond the capacity of some to assimilate. Hence he taught differently depending on the capacity of those listening. Are you prepared to accept that the presentation Dhamma is subject to change as well as everything else? So far as I am concerned Nargajuna for example merely taught Anatta in more detail. You wouldn't teach theoretical physics to primary school children anymore than you would teach the existence of conventional and ultimate realities to simple village folk at the time of Buddha. Tony... #131839 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:48 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... Sarah: Dear Htoo, > S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the Tipitaka or ancient commenteris, no first "call in the mind as 'rising and falling' etc, then the later insturctions you mention. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > This is because disparity between two persons two people. Your brain's wave length and Mahasi Sayadaw's brain's wave length are totally unmatched. ... S: I think that what matters is what the Buddha taught. There is no reference to concentrating on the abdomen in the ancient Pali texts. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What Buddha taught was "Ruupa.m, bhikkhave, anicca.m. Yadanicca.m ta.m dukkha.m. Ya.m dukkha.m tadanattaa. Yadanattaa ta.m 'neta.m mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attaa'ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya da.t.thabba.m." " Evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passato citta.m virajjati vimuccati anupaadaaya aasavehi." (vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa`nkhaara, vi~naa.na.m) Reference: Sa.myutta nikaaya- khandha sa.myutta.m - attadiipa vaggo- anicca sutta.m. Here what the Buddha taught was to see anicca first. Seeing anicca accomplishes everything in dhamma. You might say 'Mahasi is posing to pannatti'. Not like that. Mahasi did not allow in retreat to talk, to read, even to think while doing satipatthaana. If someone sees in timeline rising and falling abdomen this is concentrating on body(so call body in world). The Buddha taught to concentrate on this 6-feet body and there is dhamma. Seeing what happen in body will at a time let seen what is real. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >S: Such instructions are not compatible with the development of satipatthana and the understanding of dhammas as anatta. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah: > > They are based on an idea of a self being able to select an object and a looking for a short-cut, a simplification to develop awareness, motivated by a wish for results, a growth of understanding, but not an understanding of what realities, such as hardness, motion are. There is no understanding of what is meant by kaayaanupassanaa at such times. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > This is totally wrong. > > > > There are things which stop arising of magga ~naa.na. One of them is accusation on simless saints. -------------------------------------------------------------------- .. S: I have no interest in 'accusations' - I'm only interested in discussing realities and the path as taught by the Buddha. ... Htoo : Fine. :) -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah: > > There are always realities - it doesn't depend on the way one walks but on the understanding as to whether there is any awareness. If there is any idea of slowing down and trying to be aware, it is wrong view and practice which will just impede such awareness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > This is why some follow one tradition and another follow another tradition. Nissayas are different. You can choose not to meditate. You can choose to understand dhamma arising now whatever way you want. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Actually, no one to choose anything....just more conditioned dhammas rolling on. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is 'no one' and there is 'no no one' as all are dhamma in sa`nkhata domain. So there is no choosing as you said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can anatta be seen directly without anicca? ... S: If there is not the understanding of dhammas as dhammas, namas as namas, anatta, rupas as rupas, anatta and the realisation of the the first two tender insights, there will never be the understanding of dhammas as anicca. Here I am referring to the specific characteristics of realities. ... Htoo: Please see what I quoted above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If go through abhidhammaa more than 100,000 dhammas and these cannot be directly seen in real life. ... S: We don't have to count dhammas. What appears can be known, first by intellectual right understanding then by direct right understanding. It depends on accumulations as to what dhammas may be known now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me I am not waiting for accumulations. We cannot know how much is accumulated. Cuu.lapanthaka seemed poorly accumulated. He did not seem to know as you know now. But he after attaining arahatship could preached dhamma even in front of the Buddha (as the Buddha asked him to do so). Intellectual understanding has to be followed by direct understanding. This direct understanding is called "tiira.na pari~n~naa". Without bhaavana this can never be attained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I greatly appreciate your contributions and the discussions once more, Htoo. It doesn't matter that there are disagreements - that's why we're here discussing! Metta Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. :) :) :) I have friends believing Jesus, Brahma, Allaah but still we are friends. With Metta, Friend in Dhamma, Htoo Naing #131840 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:58 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: Hallo Htoo, >Htoo: This not not the case. Ahetuka ditthi, akiriya ditthi, and natthika ditthi are the worst. Other ditthi cannot bring down to hell directly. azita: Don't these classes of ditthi come under miccha ditthi which is wrong view? patience, courage and good cheer azita ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Azita, those three ditthis are miccha-ditthi. In cetasikas there are 52 in total. 1. 7 all-round 2. 6 flexible 3. 14 akusala 4. 19 kusala-all round 5. 2 appama~n~naa 6. 3 virati 7. 1 pa~n~nindriya Among 14 akusala there are 3 in the group of lobha-cetasikas. They are lobha, maana, and di.t.thi. Here ditthi is as 'ditthi'. If someone say ditthi it refers to this ditthi which is always micchaa-ditthi. But when panna is talked it is sometime refered to as 'sammaa-di.t.thi'. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131841 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:35 pm Subject: Re: A Challenge - KH/Thomas kenhowardau Hi Tony, -------- >> KH: This is where our Mahayana friends go astray. They think the doctrine of dependent origination refers to the existence of conditionality but not to the existence of conditioned dhammas. > T: Do they??? Where is your evidence for this (huge) assumption? --------- KH: Did I get that wrong? If so, I apologise. I believe Dieter (for example) has argued quite often that Dependentent Origination means there are just conditions without any dhammas that are conditioned. We hear so much doubletalk about dhammas existing but not existing "in and of themselves" or "but not existing with own being." It is not surprising that some of us get confused. You, Tony, have added to the confusion by telling us dhammas "exist, but their mode of existence is illusory." What is that if not doubletalk? And then, to make matters worse, you tell us that dhammas cannot possibly exist when they are not being experienced - and you say it as if it was a matter of common sense! ------------------ > Tony: With regards to this particular debate I suggest we turn the tables. I have offered several refutations to your view regarding the realities of Dhammas as separate from the mind. Maybe you could refute the Prasangika stance. That would be interesting. If it helps I will construct a salient statement that you can use as a reference point. > If you're successful I will turn away from the Prasangika and subscribe to your views in a heartbeat :) ------------------ KH: Have you offered any refutations? I remember Jon asked you for an explanation of why things could not exist outside experience. Your only reply was to say you had already explained it. But where? I certainly believe dhammas exist when they are not being experienced. This belief is supported by the conventionally known world, which is often a shadow of ultimate reality. In the conventionally known world a clock on a wall in an empty room keeps ticking. When someone enters the room and looks at the clock it tells the right time. That means it was still there, ticking away, when no one was watching it. It's the same in ultimate reality. Consciousness (citta) and mental factors (cetasika) exist when there is no consciousness of them. In fact, that is the only time when they do exist. By the time citta can, in turn, become an object of citta it has already fallen away. Only its nimitta can be experienced. But don't let me spoil your suggestion: please construct a salient statement that I can use as a reference point. Ken H #131842 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:06 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) truth_aerator Hi Htoo, all, >I think this is due to misunderstanding on dhamma. Upanissaya paccaya >should have been learnt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not just learned, but developed. Some talk about that "when the conditions are right...", well, sorry to burst someone's bubble but conditions will NEVER be right until one sets them. This is the point of practice, to develop these conditions for certain results to occur. Otherwise it all sounds like Indian version of "God's grace". "We can't do anything, so lets just wait when conditions come some time in some future aeon". The double standard is that some claim that meditation is all about the future (thus "bad"), and yet say how panna will be developed in the far far future and consider this to be the way.. >Kusala condition akusala, akusala condition kusala. >Kusala condition abyaakata, abyaakata condition kusala. >Akusala condition abyaakata, abyaakata condition akusala. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?????????? With metta, Alex #131843 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:44 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) philofillet Dear Alex > "We can't do anything, so lets just wait when conditions come some time in some future aeon". This is nutty, Alex. When has any student of AS ever talked about the *presently arisen dhamma* being suitable for the development of understanding. It's meditators who shift things into the future, the time for developing understanding is always in the future, my next sitting will be better! That spring retreat will deepen understanding! Understanding, here and now. Without forcing things yes, but you are totally misrepresenting people when you talk about bhavana being put off to another time and place. That is the modern meditator's way. I haven't invested much time into explaining things to you thankfully but I wonder how people who have invested lots of time must feel when they see you completely misrepresenting them as if you haven't heard a single word! Well I guess there's equanimity, and the explaining is kusala kamma patha whether the explanation is heard or not. Phil #131844 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:48 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) philofillet Dear again Alex > > > "We can't do anything, so lets just wait when conditions come some time in some future aeon". > > This is nutty, Alex. When has any student of AS ever talked about the *presently arisen dhamma* being suitable for the development of understanding? (L_`)Major correction: *anything but the presently arisen dhamma* Phil > #131845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: smiling about his kusala. nilovg Dear Phil, thanks for your kind post. Op 17 jul 2013, om 11:52 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > She still hasn't awoken to Dhamma at all. It seems a bit unlikely that she will, she is fiercely interested in social justice and the hardships of disadvantaged people in society and that gets in the way of opening fully to Dhamma, in my opinion. I may be wrong. ----- N: You could discuss moments of kusala which are so different from selfish moments that come in between. No need to use the word citta. It is good that she wishes to help others and we can appreciate that. Nina. #131846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Do we have to think a lot? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 17 jul 2013, om 11:54 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > No KK in September I'm afraid but I do expect to go in January. ----- N: Good, we may meet then. I am making good progress now, more strength, walking with a stick also, not all the time with the roller. And even without a stick if the therapeut is with me, not alone. Nina. #131847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 17 jul 2013, om 13:49 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > For example this evening I am reading through SN 35. I came across SN 35:99 with its exhortation to concentration and such lines as " a Bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are." A footnote led me to hope that BB would provide the correct teaching as you have done above. But no such thing ------- N: I heard a good explanation: samaadhi and pa~n~naa at the stages of insight arising together (sahajaata) condition one another. We have to think of the stages of insight and as pa~n~naa grows also samaadhi grows. This is one-pointedness on one object, such as knowing naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa, clearly distinguishing them, one at a time. All by conditions, not by trying as you understand very well. Nina. #131848 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:49 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) truth_aerator Dear Phil, all, >Major correction: *anything but the presently arisen dhamma* As if meditation deals with anything but the presently arisen dhammas. With best wishes, Alex #131849 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hello Htoo, > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > No, this means that those particular individuals had accumulated from > the past, enough panna and other paramis. If being Jhanalabhi was > helpful, why were there so many of them with wrong view, who could not > appreciate the Buddha's teachings? What do you think were more in > number, those who attained enlightenment by way of dry-insight or > jhanalabis who attained together with jhana? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > It cannot be wrong view all the time. It is impermanent. Jhaana is not > assocoated with wrong view. If think that wrong view arises with > jhaana then all jhaana will have to be akusala. In contrary, all > jhaanas including ruupa jhaanas and aruupa jhaanas will be akusala. > The Buddha did not preach jhaanas are akusala and jhaanas are > associated with wrong view. > Suk: This is what I had written: "If being Jhanalabhi was helpful, why were there so many of them with wrong view, who could not appreciate the Buddha's teachings?" How did you read the above as suggesting that wrong view can arise with jhana? > Attainment of sotaapatti magga is not the end. The Buddha did not > congratulate those who were not arahats. > The point of the congratulating is because no more defilements, "the work is done". The Sotapanna still has defilements, but the "stream" has been entered and therefore only seven lifetimes to go at the maximum. > Sukin: > Can you go into more details regarding the relationship between the > understanding which sees the harm in sensuous attachment and one which > sees the danger in ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths)? I believe in > fact, that the inclination to take attainments related to Jhana for > "self", is much more likely, than any willingness to hear the Buddha's > teachings and therefore understanding Jhana as conditioned and non-self. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You are right. This is a point that Mahasi Sayadaw did not applause > trying to have jhaanas. Instead he explained dhammas and went > delineation what written in tipi.taka. Samaadhi are many. As you said > there may be those may incline to 'self' especially for who have > jhaana. But jhaanas themselves do not have any wrong view. Arising of > wrong view might occur after they exit from jhaana. But when dhammas > are studied and jhaanas are tried and attain then it will be more at > ease than dry-insighters. Enter jhaanas, exit from jhaana and then > contemplate on dhamma when in paccavekkha.na kha.na. Sammaa-samaadhi > is one component of a.t.tha`ngika magga. It has to be included even > before actual time of magga kha.na. Otherwise the Buddha would not say > "paripuurenti". > So you are referring to samma samadhi as a separate practice which is supposed to help panna of the Eightfold Path? Is not samma samadhi in fact ekaggata cetasika made "right" by virtue of being conditioned by samma ditthi? Does not panna when developed, becomes indriya and bala and this is what reflects the ease in arising regardless of whether the preceding dhamma and object is kusala, akusala or avyakata? Is panna indriya or bala only because samadhi is indriya and bala? > Sukin: > That was a matter of being still with some defilements vs. complete > eradication. Of course it is only at Arahata when the work is fully > done. But the question here is what is the more important and > difficult step, from a puthujjana to sotapatti or from sotapatti > through sakadagami and anagami to arahatta? If that mountain of a rock > which is the defilements of the puthujjana has worn away by gradual > rubbing with cloth, the step between sotapatti till arahatta is like > cutting a small piece of butter with a knife. > You are actually expressing lack of confidence in the Noble Eightfold > Path! > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Not true that you express lack of confidence. Your other words > in above bay seem right and good. > Can you rephrase? > Sukin: > When asked what the factors to Sotapatti are, the Buddha said; > Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. > Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate > attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with > the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Right. Sappuurisasa.mseva, saddhammasavana, yonisomanasikaara, > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatiiyaa. All these four are right condition for > arising of sotaapatti magga ~naa.na. > > 1. 1st sappuurisa + sa.mseva > > Sappuurisa here have to be sotapanna or sakadaagaa.m or anaagaa.m or > arahats. Otherwise it would like the followers of the blind. > > Sa.m + sevana = rightly, well + association. Here to observe teacher, > ask teacher, learn from teacher, take guidance from teacher. > > 2. saddhammasavana.m > > To listen (read) right dhamma. Message must be rightly passed on from > teacher to disciple. > > 3. yonisomanasikaaro > > Right attention. Here it is not just sati, viriya but it is panna or > understanding (what DSG always say) > > 4. dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa > > Dhamma + anu-dhamma + pa.tipatti + yaa > > Here pa.tipatti must be right one. Pa.ti is like hit, touch, hurt, > reach, get to, arrive at, enter, come into existance. The practice is > require to attain sotaapanna. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > And when asked what leads to Arahatta, the same four factors were > cited. The tradition that you come from, jump straight to "practice" > without giving due consideration to the other three factors. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Not jumping. Some had to go for 20 years, some 30 years, some 13 years > and so on for learning. Here anaagaa.m Saya Thet Kyi had to go > studying close by Ledi for about 12 to 13 years. Meditation Centres > preach dhamma at appropriate time even before actual meditation. > You miss the point. Hearing the Dhamma and appreciating it, leads to seeing value in continued listening rather than to the idea of doing something / practice. What do you understand by "cira kala bhavana"? Is this a matter of 10, 20, 30 or 80 years, or uncountable lifetimes? > Whatever instructions were given after attainments they were checked > with dhammas in tipitaka. Once a monk was flying in the sky in > Myanmar. Many people saw with their own eyes (at that time there was > no internet, no mobile). Many people followed that monk. Finally they > met the monk. Many went offerings. That Sayadaw just replied he wanted > to build a Ceti (pagoda). He had miracle things not magic one. After > sometime he was investigated by vinaya-team and he admitted that he > was just a puthujana. I include this that dhamma is dhamma and > tipitaka is the reference. > If there is no Pariyatti understanding, wrong attainments will find confirmation in the Tipitaka what it seeks. A very dangerous position to be in. Begin again and again, which is none other than what appears "now". Do you think someone who has attained will want to check with the Tipitaka what he has experienced, or he will just keep developing understanding of the reality NOW? > Instructions may differ from each other. This is because they do not > have aasaanusaya ~naa.na. So they pass on according to their passage > when they passed through. > > You may say 'wrong things, wrong ideas, not in tipitaka'. Examples are > "Put attention at the top of scalp about a coin. Put attention at the > centre of the heart, put attention at the centre of the body, put > attention at the tip of the nose, put attention at the upper lip, put > attention on the abdomen. This is not trying to delude, trying to > possess self at all. > Are you serious about such practices? Do you really believe that they are valid? The Dhamma is One and has one taste. The Path is one. Why would there be difference in practice instructions? Have you and any of the teachers ever checked with the Tipitaka regarding these practices? Are you interested only in the "result" and not in the causes? > I think just hearing, just reading, just understanding is not enough. > You mentioned 4 factors. I think the first two factors have been > already involved. The practice is for 3rd and 4th. > Practice is conditioned namas / sankhara dhammas or is it something else? > There are examples in tipitakas, and also in a.t.thakathaa that some > bhikkhus were good at tipitaka but still puthujana and they had to > search for teacher even though they knew dhamma more than YOU. > I have a teacher too, A. Sujin. But I go to her to listen to the Dhamma and to ask questions related to Dhamma. My knowledge of Dhamma is at the infant level. But by this I do not mean "book knowledge", but of what appears from moment to moment. Is this what you have in mind when you suggest that those people in the Tipitaka who went in search of teachers knew more Dhamma than I do? > Sukin: > Can a puthujjana practice correctly if there is no careful study of > the Dhamma and pariyatti understanding from "long time hearing"? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > When there is a good teacher YES. > Impossible for patipatti to arise without enough accumulated pariyatti and other parami. Even the Buddha can't create a short cut for anyone. > Sukin: > > And by the way, how do you know that these people were / are Ariyans? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > For me, I learn dhamma and I see things clearly. There is no person > and nothing to do with person. > > One goes without anyone not problem. But many ones go and call others > hand in hand. Ledi assigned Saya They Kyi to help at least 6000 > people. But Saya Thet Kyi helped more than 100,000. Among these > 100,000 at least 6000 people might be beneficial (I mean became > sotapanna and may be more than that). Ledi knew many things in > advance. Ledi knew 'thought in the mind' of people but he did not show > this(disciple accidentally found). > > Ledi said 6000. Because it was possible 6000 would be sotapanna. + > Entertaining and believing in such stories, how does this reflect development of Right Understanding? > Meditators in Myanmar are calm, faces are clear, behavior are fine. > Most people know advance thing. My grandfather did meditation. Be > became blind when he was in his 70's. But he knew as if he could see. > He even knew the time of his death in advance and evrything was > arranged in advance. My grandmother also did meditation. She also knew > things in advance. She also knew the time of her death in advance. She > was calm. She also arrange funeral things in advance. My father said > 'My mother did not cause any troble to anyone'. My grandmother died on > the last day of Myanmar. According to custom the corpse has to be > destroyed before sunrise of new-year-day. So there was no special time > consuming things or wasting money things. And many meditators knew > their time of death beforehand and they calmly passed away. > The kind of thinking that you express here is something people of other religions also express. As Dhamma students we know what it in fact takes to determine whether someone has good sila or not, but more importantly, that it is Right View which is important and what really determines whether someone has this or not. > Htoo: > I mean when I met a person with yellow robe I do not need to thing of > whether he is genuine or fake or puthujana or sotapanna or > sakadaagaa.m or anaagaa,m or arahat. As I see him is as I see. It is > yellow robe and a sign of Buddha's disciple. But when I have to deal > with that person I will assume him as a person. If I have a chance to > talk together I might know how deeply he know dhamma and then I may > feel confident that dhamma in him is dhamma. > So you do know that it is Right Understanding which is important and that it is through questioning / discussion that one comes to know whether this is present or not. > > > Those people would be able to answer your questions whatever if > > > dhamma-related but they will answer in simple way. But you may not be > > > able to answer their questions if they raise. They changed and they > > > left landmarks that they changed in their behavior (not just > > > suppressed). And they could even passed on dhamma to next generations. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > But you and the rest of the Burmese population understand their simple > words don't you? And you have tried for so many years to pass on their > understanding to us via your particular way of communication, but > apparently that has not worked........ > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > :) > > I have many emails outside of this forum. I do not need to assess > whether effective or not. I am not listening to clapping. Whether it > works or not is not my concern. > Well, I was talking about me and everyone else on this list who have expressed disagreement with you regarding the concept of "practice". > > > Htoo: > > > > > > Pupils of Mahasi Sayadaw could experience bhava`ngacittas even though > > > not directly. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > I see. > But your "practice" comes across to me, as miccha patipatti, and you > want to convince me that you have experienced (although indirectly) > bhavanga cittas and be impressed? > > Metta, > > Sukin > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I am not trying for impression. I did not say I see bhava`nga cittas. > So you were talking about someone else who has claimed to know bhavanga cittas? How do you know that what they claim is true? Metta, Sukin #131850 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) truth_aerator Dear Sukin, all, >Suk: This is what I had written: >"If being Jhanalabhi was helpful, why were there so many of them with >wrong view, who could not appreciate the Buddha's teachings?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jhanalabhi does not guarantee correct views for all people in all cases. It can however be helpful at some stages, and 4 jhanas are required for the path because they form samma-samadhi factor of Noble Eightfold Path. There is no way around it. Either accept N8P or N7P, or worse N1P. The Buddha didn't want to teach Dhamma at first. When He reconsidered whom to teach, guess what, he wanted to teach his two teachers who were masters of jhanas and some arupa jhanas. >Sukin: >Can you go into more details regarding the relationship between the >understanding which sees the harm in sensuous attachment and one >which sees the danger in ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths)? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMHO, if one truly understands the harm of kama, then one (baring any other conditions) have no problem entering rupajhanas. Often it is the attachement to the kama which is big hindrance to Jhanas. >I believe in > fact, that the inclination to take attainments related >to Jhana for "self", is much more likely, than any willingness to >hear the Buddha's teachings and therefore understanding Jhana as >conditioned and non-self. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can build an "ego" around meditation as much as one can build an ego around knowledge. Writing books, giving lectures, having degrees, etc, can be as much ego building as meditation... Except that when jhana occurs, the 5 hindrances are suppressed, unlike when listening to lecture. My personal opinion is that if "knowledge" doesn't translate into less clinging and hindrances, then it is not really "knowledge" at all. >Sukin: >That was a matter of being still with some defilements vs. complete >eradication. Of course it is only at Arahata when the work is fully >done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Correct. So one should not expect a jhana meditator to be totally flawless and basically an Arahant before even sotapatti maggaphala. >But the question here is what is the more important and >difficult step, from a puthujjana to sotapatti or from sotapatti >through sakadagami and anagami to arahatta? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Difficult for whom? Part of the difficulty is to be born a human, in a time of Buddha Sasana, in relatively good conditions (starving African kid that has to kill to survive would not be generaly a good condition), encountering the teaching, be with enough understanding, etc. 99.999% are not in that situation. Just look at population of insects vs humans. I wonder about difficulty of becoming a sotapanna for a person who has relatively good conditions, knows about Buddhism and *wants* to become sotapana. >Sukin: >>And when asked what leads to Arahatta, the same four factors were >cited. The tradition that you come from, jump straight to "practice" >without giving due consideration to the other three factors. >---------------------------------------------------------- The path to Arhatship is Noble Eightfold Path which includes samma-samadhi that includes 4 Jhanas. With best wishes, Alex #131851 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:36 am Subject: Re: smiling about his kusala. glenjohnann Hello Nina So glad to hear that your anniversary day was one of remembrance of Lodewijk's kusala qualities and good deeds. He was such a gracious and kind man, very attuned to other's needs and generous in his concern for others. Naturally many moments of loba as well, but with more understanding of Dhamma, perhaps the moments of dose fewer and the stories of dosa shortened. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > I listened many times to the first tape in Huahin, taken at the service for Ivan. T.A. said about the loss of her father and her thinking of him that she smiled when thinking of his kusala. Today is the date of my wedding day and I thought beforehand that it would be a sad occasion. But no, it is not, to my surprise. The day before I had a computer technicus over and remembered that Lodewijk was always so generous with extra tips and I mentioned to him that Lodewijk liked to give this always. I feel glad when remembering all Lodewijk's good qualities, and this gives me joy. Of course this is mixed with many moments with lobha but that always happens. > So we can see how listening to the Dhamma helps. > Nina. > #131852 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:34 am Subject: Re: Do we have to think a lot? glenjohnann Hello Nina Great to hear of your progress and possibility of you being in Bkk in January. We are hoping/planning to be there too. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 17 jul 2013, om 11:54 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > No KK in September I'm afraid but I do expect to go in January. > ----- > N: Good, we may meet then. I am making good progress now, more strength, walking with a stick also, not all the time with the roller. And even without a stick if the therapeut is with me, not alone. > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #131853 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) philofillet Dear Nina > N: I heard a good explanation: samaadhi and pa~n~naa at the stages of insight arising together (sahajaata) condition one another. We have to think of the stages of insight Ph: hearing this from you conditions consideration of stages of insight. They are thrown around so casually by people who follow meditation gurus so I usually have no interest or desire to think about them. > and as pa~n~naa grows also samaadhi grows. Ph: I have confidence that this growth happens *now* if there is wise attention to the presently arisen reality. Just as there is samattha with all kusala there is sanna samadhi in those unpredictable, uncontrollable and yet undeniable moments of realities becoming -briefly- objects of awareness, as rupa or n a m a. Is that just thinking with desire for progress? What I used to dismiss as a "Sujinism." I don't think so... > This is one-pointedness on one object, such as knowing naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa, clearly distinguishing them, one at a time. All by conditions, not by trying as you understand very well. Ph: I think this can happen now, in any situation. It is true that the Buddha seems to praise physical seclusion as well as seclusion of the citta. I think we students of Ajahn Sujin sometimes dance around that one. Is that just about jhanas? Phil P.S Glad to hear your are gaining energy. It would be wonderful to meet you in January. #131854 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) philofillet Hello again. Typo correction: Samma samadhi not sanna samadhi. Phil #131855 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:04 am Subject: Samma samadhi vs. ekagatta cetasika with any kusala (Nina) philofillet Dear Group This question is for Nina. (Please abstain from answering, Htoo, until after Nina has responded, thanks) I am confused about the idea of " samma samadhi." Is it not the same as the ekagatta cetasika that arises with every kusala citta? Thanks Phil #131856 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:39 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (Joe/Sarah) jonoabb Hi Tony --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > J: It seems to be your position that the there is no possibility that anything could exist outside of experience (or, perhaps, no possibility that such existence could be known). > > Would you mind explaining the basis for this assumption/position. I think this could be a useful line of discussion. > > TH: I struggle to explain this in ways other than I already have numerous times in this forum. So two questions for you and Sarah :-) > > How can something exist without being an object of conciousness/expereince? > > If it is not an object of conciousness or being experienced how on earth does it exist and how would you know??? > =============== J: Well I suppose much would depend on your definition of "exists". But that brings me to the point I was going to make, namely, that the teachings are not so much about the notion of what does or does not "exist" as about what are the dhammas of which the Buddha spoke. To my understanding, the development of the path involves the development of understanding of these dhammas, variously classified as khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc. The teachings do not invite us to address the philosophical question of what can or cannot be said to "exist". Which leads me to question the relevance of the concept. What do you see as being its importance? Jon #131857 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:22 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Jon, all,. > > >J There's a good reason why you've not seen such a quote, and >never >will: there's no equivalent of the term "meditation" in the Pali >texts, so no mention of it, either for or against.!! :-)) > >>>> > > And neither "no-Self", and "no control". Buddha didn't spoke English. > When we read about things that Buddha recommended to do, what RobE and others mean by meditation, is most certainly found there and recommended by the Buddha. Moreover, commentaries like VsM do teach intentional development of wisdom, etc. > =============== J: My point is just that the Buddha did not classify his teachings according whether what he was talking about was or was not "meditation". This is a classification that has become popular in recent times only. Furthermore, as I understand the current-day concept of meditation, it refers to a *practice undertaken* and so includes mental states other than those that are accompanied by right understanding (or even kusala of any kind). Whereas it seems to me that when the Buddha spoke about awareness and understanding he was referring to those particular mental states only. Jon #131858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Do we have to think a lot? nilovg Dear Ann, Op 18 jul 2013, om 20:34 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Great to hear of your progress and possibility of you being in Bkk in January. ------- N: Thank you for your kind posts, also about Lodewijk. We never know what will happen, but all in all, I am optimistic. Nina. #131859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 18 jul 2013, om 23:45 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > It is true that the Buddha seems to praise physical seclusion as well as seclusion of the citta. I think we students of Ajahn Sujin sometimes dance around that one. Is that just about jhanas? ------- N: kaaya-viveka, abiding in solitude; citta-viveka, detachment from sense objects; upadhi-viveka, detachment from "substratum" of existence, thus, from all defilements leading to rebirth. This is not just about jhaana. Citta-viveka can be of different degrees. Nina. #131860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samma samadhi vs. ekagatta cetasika with any kusala (Nina) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 19 jul 2013, om 01:04 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I am confused about the idea of " samma samadhi." Is it not the same as the ekagatta cetasika that arises with every kusala citta? -------- N: sammaa means right and it applies to samaadhi that is kusala, or, ekagatta cetasika that is kusala. Sammaa samaadhi of the eightfold Path refers to ekagatta cetasika that is a factor of the eightfold Path, accompanying right understanding (sammaadi.t.thi) of the eightfold Path. There is also miccha samaadhi, accompanying akusala citta, being a factor of the wrong Path. It is ekagatta cetasika that is akusala. Wrong view about realities and the development of what one believes is the Path leading to nibbaana is accompanied by micchaa samaadhi. Nina. #131861 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) philofillet Hello Nina > > > It is true that the Buddha seems to praise physical seclusion as well as seclusion of the citta. I think we students of Ajahn Sujin sometimes dance around that one. Is that just about jhanas? > ------- > N: kaaya-viveka, abiding in solitude; citta-viveka, detachment from sense objects; upadhi-viveka, detachment from "substratum" of existence, thus, from all defilements leading to rebirth. > This is not just about jhaana. Citta-viveka can be of different degrees. > Nina. > But what about kaaya-viveka, abiding in solitude. I remember your once saying that you could appreciate a quiet morning in a quiet room, reflecting on suttas. Can we acknowledge that the Buddha praised such physical solitude? I guess the point is that citta-viveka is most important. We can be in a quiet place but completely overwhelmed by unwholesome cittas related to people and things... Phil #131862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 19 jul 2013, om 10:08 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But what about kaaya-viveka, abiding in solitude. I remember your once saying that you could appreciate a quiet morning in a quiet room, reflecting on suttas. Can we acknowledge that the Buddha praised such physical solitude? ------ N: This is bound to be with lobha. It depends on conditions in which situation one is. ------ > Ph:I guess the point is that citta-viveka is most important. We can be in a quiet place but completely overwhelmed by unwholesome cittas related to people and things... ------- N: Like Megiya. Depending on conditions there can be citta-viveka, but this is kusala. ------- Nina. #131863 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samma samadhi vs. ekagatta cetasika with any kusala (Nina) philofillet Dear Nina > N: sammaa means right and it applies to samaadhi that is kusala, or, ekagatta cetasika that is kusala. Sammaa samaadhi of the eightfold Path refers to ekagatta cetasika that is a factor of the eightfold Path, accompanying right understanding (sammaadi.t.thi) of the eightfold Path. Ph: Sorry, I should know this, but what is the difference between samadhi that is kusala and samma samadhi of the eightfold path? Does the latter refer to what I have seen called "path moments" that are attainments when the object is nibbana and defilemts are eradicated or something like that? I am not so interested in attainments but I guess I should understand what happens in such rarefied cases. Thank you Phil #131864 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:22 am Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: As I see it, this is a description of the different kinds of kusala, arranged in ascending order. So the teaching is a 'gradual' one in the sense that it leads by stages to the kusala that is awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas, this being the "exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana)" and the highest level of kusala. > > RE: I don't know if you mean this in a different way, but as I read it, it seems that this gives some credence to the idea that by ascending through the various types of kusala, perhaps from simplest to more difficult, one gradually reaches the level of kusala that opens up the path. > =============== J: I don't think that the passage can be taken to suggest that the development of the path involves "ascending through the various types of kusala". Of course, context is all important. You may find it interesting to read a sutta in which the passage appears. Here's a link to a translation of the Upaali Sutta (M.56) (the relevant passage appears about half way through): http://www.vipassana.info/056-upali-e1.htm Let me know what you think! Jon #131865 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:43 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: In the dhamma sense, the term 'condition/ed' has a particular meaning. Not all conditions 'come before' that which is conditioned; some co-arise with, or even arise after, the conditioned dhamma. > > RE: Thanks, Jon. The latter is intriguing. How can something arise after to condition what has come before? > =============== J: Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary describes a condition as "something on which something else, the so-called 'conditioned thing', is dependent, and without which the latter cannot be." In the case of this particular condition, called post-nascence condition (pacchajaata-paccaya), the conditioned thing arises first and the conditioning thing later. An example is that citta and its cetasikas are post-nascence condition for the (previously arisen) rupas of the body. In her writing 'The Conditionality Of Life', Nina explains it as follows: "[C]itta and its accompanying cetasikas support the ruupas of the body which have arisen previously and have not fallen away yet. [T]hese ruupas have arisen already prior to the citta; it supports and consolidates these ruupas which are still present, since ruupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta." http://ia600608.us.archive.org/20/items/TheConditionalityOfLife/cond.pdf p 66-67 Just to make the point that, as with many other terms, 'condition/ed' has a very particular meaning in a Dhamma context. Jon #131866 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:08 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: You say, "I have been waiting for years for [a quote from the texts] from you or anyone that says that meditation is bad for the path. Still haven't seen a single quote! Not one!" > > > > > > There's a good reason why you've not seen such a quote, and never will: there's no equivalent of the term "meditation" in the Pali texts, so no mention of it, either for or against.!! :-)) > > > > RE: Well there is certainly no scriptural basis for declaring somethign to be true for which there is no evidence. Left with no direct statement about meditation, we are left with the knowledge that every Buddhist monk at the time of the Buddha and during every generation following, up to the present day, were all meditators, almost without exception. > > =============== > > J: I don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to infer an aspect of the teachings from a description in the suttas of how some monks spent their time. "Some monks?" Really? Whether you think it is significant or not, meditation was and is the core of monastic life. *All* monks is more like it. We have the Buddha's actual words as spoken, and surely it is these -- as elaborated upon by the commentaries -- that are the best source of his message. Well that's the problem. As you agree, for whatever reason, the Buddha did not refer to the word "meditation." Many people think much else of what he said describes and defines meditation, but can't prove it because of the lack of such usage. > In sutta after sutta, we are told how people hearing a teaching given by the Buddha became enlightened there and then, sometimes on a first meeting. This suggests that it was their understanding of the content of the talk, rather than the following of a practice, that was the basis for their enlightenment. Or the power of the Buddha. > > =============== > > RE: So it strains credulity to the breaking point to claim that a nonexistent tradition of non-meditation is "Orthodox Buddhism." That is like saying that Mormonism is Orthodox Christianity. > > =============== > > J: There is, of course, no tradition of non-meditation, and I've never suggested there is. Yet, meditation is constantly bashed as outside the path and an expression of self-view. > What I've said is that orthodox Buddhism does not teach that the development of awareness/insight is dependent on time, place, posture or the like. When you use the term "Orthodox Buddhism" it's like a catch-all that does not really disclose where the authority is coming from. Saying "the teachings as a whole" likewise clouds the fact that the above interpretation is indeed a particular view or way of looking at the Teachings, rather than "the" way of looking. To say it's Orthodox implies that everyone who is a real serious Buddhist would agree on it. Orthodoxy is not normally in dispute in a given area. This is decidedly not the case with the view that meditation is not part of the path, and that enlightenment comes only from understanding the teachings and non-volitional application of that understanding in everyday life without any plan. When I say "non-volitional" I mean an understanding that volition is not created or willed by "a person," but just arises. This way of looking at the Teachings is a valid and strong, but very particular view, and is not the only or even major way that Buddhism is viewed by its practitioners both present and historical. I think it would be more fair to call it the "Commentarial" perspective or something like that, though even the commentaries do not directly support a lot of what is claimed by adherents to this view on dsg. But I do not think it is fair to call it orthodox. That is misleading. It presumes that your view is the only correct one, even though there are no direct statements of the Buddha that support such a claim, and most Buddhists do not look at the practice the same way. And it precludes any serious argument, since it is already established that this view must be correct. > =============== > > RE: It's absolutely the case that the vast majority of Buddhists all see meditation as a seminal part of the Buddhist practice, because it is an unbroken practice taught, practiced and extolled by the Buddha. There were very few things that the Buddha had to recommend as being against the tide of ignorance and defilements. Among those few things was jhana, which he called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now," and always spoke of in complimentary terms. Jhana was recommended and practice not as a leftover from other traditions, but as the practice of the Buddha himself - the platform for his enlightenment, and the launching pad for his Parinibbana. > > =============== > > J: I agree that the Buddha extolled the development of jhana (by those developing the path), but he did not extol anything he called 'meditation'. What difference does it make? Developing jhana through cultivating samatha *is* one of the two major forms of Buddhist meditation. It doesn't matter what you call it, does it? If you call it jhana, that's fine with me. I would challenge you to show me someone who is actually in jhana while walking around talking or having a corned beef sandwhich. If there is any such person, you will find them sitting still, usually with eyes closed, breathing slowly and removed from physical sensory awareness. So that is a meditative state however you would like to slice it. Whether you call it jhana, samadhi, dhyana or silent contemplation of Abhidhamma, it's still meditation. And the other form of Buddhist meditation is that mindfulness kind, where you practice awareness of what is arising in the moment, usually while following the breath. That is meditation too. You can call it mindfulness meditation, cultivation of sati, satipatthana practice, or whatever else might be apropos, but it's meditation as taught by the Buddha. Looking for the word "meditation" in the suttas is like looking for the word "horse" in a horse barn. There's plenty of horses everywhere, but they don't read or write their own names. > > =============== > > RE: From the cradle of his enlightenment to the grave of his Parinibbana, his constant companion was his meditative attainments in mindfulness and jhana, the two poles of the monks' sitting practice. And so it was for virtually every monk during his life and ever since. > > =============== > > J: The Buddha taught about the attainments of mindfulness and jhana, but he never called them 'meditative' attainments, and nor did he ever speak of a 'sitting' practice. These are latter day glosses on the teaching. They are descriptions of the actual practice. I don't see any sense in denying what the Buddha and the original monks were doing twenty-four hours a day - if they weren't doing a specific task they were sitting cross-legged and cultivating mindfulness and jhana. That is meditation, not matter what one may say about it, and it was their main activity throughout their lives and throughout the entire tradition. That's my definition of "orthodox." > > =============== > > RE: If there is anything truly Orthodox in Buddhism it is meditation practice. > > > > The idea that there is no term for meditation is also a strain to credulity. Specific practices are talked about in conjunction with bhavana and the enlightenment factors. The Buddha gives a guarantee that if mindfulness is practiced correctly for a given period of time, it will lead to satipatthana and enlightenment. Whether the word is jhana, mindfulness, practice or development, they are brought together in sitting practice. When you sit and focus on breath or arising phenomenal experience in order to develop mindfulness or jhana, as prescribed by the Buddha in a number of suttas, that is meditation practice in Buddhism. > > =============== > > J: You are using a coined term ("meditation practice") to describe a specific -- and rather limited -- part of the teachings. Well then let's call it what it is, cultivation of jhana and satipatthana through specific practices. If you don't like "meditation" let's just call it jhana practice and satipatthana practice - that's fine with me. These monks and their teacher were practicing, not just waiting for satipatthana to strike them. I don't know what the problem with "meditation" is, but those practices *are* "Buddhist meditation." There isn't anything else meant by the term. > And in any event, it's not correct to say that sitting and focussing on breath was prescribed as a way of developing mindfulness -- what we find in the suttas is the teaching of the development of mindfulness for those who are already skilled in anapanasati. That's a claim that has never been proven - it's a philosophical presumption based on a particular interpretation of commentary, and in my view it does not match a reasonable reading of the anapanasati or satipatthana sutta. When a sutta says "he breathes..." doing x, it means that the breathing is part of the process, not just a coincidence. There's no similar description for the butcher, the baker or the candle-stick maker, only for those who cultivate jhana and mindfulness with breath as object. Sort of a strange coincidence if jhana and breathing are not part of the package. > > =============== > > > J: You are here using the term "meditation" to refer to certain things that are mentioned in the texts although not described as such. > > > > RE: The word that is used to label such practices are not as important as the practice itself. This seems like an amazingly academic debate if it is not about the substance of these practices that are clearly delineated in detail, and instead about whether they had a singular name or not as we refer to them today and have for centuries. > > =============== > > J: I don't consider it an academic debate at all. The problem is that every time I try to direct our conversation to something other than meditation, you bring it back there! Sorry I thought that was what we were talking about. What in your opinion is the legitimate subject of this discussion? This comment also seems strange since we have been talking about the legitimacy of meditation through this entire part of the thread. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #131867 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:01 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > --- "Ken H" wrote: > > > ... > > > T: According to the SN suttas, all dhammas 'phenomena' are arisen by condition and ceased by condition. They are "anicca, dukkha, and anatta". The teaching of conditioned dhammas, in both arising and ceasing modes, is the middle way. That is, it avoids the two extremes by affirming neither 'existence' nor 'non-existence', neither externalism nor nihilism. 'Right view' in the SN suttas consists in fully seeing conditioned dhammas `phenomena' in both arising and > ceasing modes for oneself (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p.195) > -------------------- > .... > > > KH: ... paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) about conditioned dhammas arising and ceasing? What are those conditioned dhammas if not absolute realities? The doctrine of Dependant Origination explains how cetana and other absolute realities are conditioned to arise. conditioned dhammas do not really exist (do not have "own being")? > > Thomas: According to the SN suttas, dhammas 'phenomena' are arisen (existed) by condition, not by 'own being', and thus not belonging to self (anatta). Also, according to the SN suttas, there is no need to name paramattha dhammas or absolute realities, but to see (and to know) directly body and mind phenomena 'dhammas' as they really are as 'anicca, dukkha, and anatta', as 'the four truths', and as 'the middle way'. > > --------------------------------- > Thomas: Also, 'citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are not named as paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) in the SN suttas. As mentioned before, the term 'paramattha' and its contents (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana) (See A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhama, p. 25) are simply not found in all suttas, particularly the SN suttas. In other words, in the SN suttas 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', 'the four truths', and 'the middle way' are regarded as the so-called 'things as they really are' (yathaabhuuta.m), and nibbana refers mainly to the cessation of dukkha. The SN suttas do not record the Buddha as saying that 'citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are paramattha dhammas (absolute realities). One may consider 'why', for accurately understanding the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. Regards, Thomas #131868 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas sukinderpal Hi Thomas, > Thomas: Also, 'citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are not named as > paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) in the SN suttas. As mentioned > before, the term 'paramattha' and its contents (citta, cetasika, rupa, > nibbana) (See A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhama, p. 25) are simply > not found in all suttas, particularly the SN suttas. In other words, > in the SN suttas 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', 'the four truths', and 'the > middle way' are regarded as the so-called 'things as they really are' > (yathaabhuuta.m), and nibbana refers mainly to the cessation of > dukkha. The SN suttas do not record the Buddha as saying that 'citta, > cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are paramattha dhammas (absolute > realities). One may consider 'why', for accurately understanding the > fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. > And maybe for a change, instead of pointing out that it does not exist in this or that Nikaya or anywhere in the Tipitaka, you can tell us why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? What is wrong with classifying conditioned phenomena in terms of citta, cetasika and rupa and why you do not believe in the existence of the unconditioned Nibbana? Citta, cetasika and rupa correspond with the First and the Second Noble Truths. Nibbana is the Third Noble Truth. Do you agree with this, if not, please explain why? Sukin #131869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, I could add to Sukin's post: citta, cetasika and ruupa are the same as the five khandhas. Nibbaana is not a khandha. Nina. Op 20 jul 2013, om 14:57 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > The SN suttas do not record the Buddha as saying that 'citta, > > cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are paramattha dhammas (absolute > > realities). #131870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samma samadhi vs. ekagatta cetasika with any kusala (Nina) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 19 jul 2013, om 15:06 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > what is the difference between samadhi that is kusala and samma samadhi of the eightfold path? ------ N: When someone who has skill for jhaana accumulates conditions for jhaana, for a high degree of calm, there is sammaa samaadhi, but not of the eightfold Path. ------- > Ph: Does the latter refer to what I have seen called "path moments" that are attainments when the object is nibbana and defilemts are eradicated or something like that? I am not so interested in attainments but I guess I should understand what happens in such rarefied cases. ------ N: Also before that, when he develops vipassanaa. It refers not only to the Path that is lokuttara. ----- Nina. #131871 From: Nana Palo Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:04 pm Subject: G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma nana_palo Dear dhamma friends, We have a discussion in the daily discussion on garuka kamma subject. There Re two question on whether someone that under alcohol influence or dream to do a matricide or patricide is considered as garuka kamma or not. We should be grateful if there are friends in this group to help us the explanation and insight. Anumodana, Muditacitta, Selamat Dhamma study group bogor, Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android #131872 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samma samadhi vs. ekagatta cetasika with any kusala (Nina) philofillet Dear Nina Thanks for the explanation. Phil #131873 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:47 am Subject: Re: What is fear? philofillet Dear group I came across this post > > >L: What is fear? > > .... > > > > S: Dosa cetasika > ----------------------------- > HCW: > Ahhh! I didn't know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-)) [Sorry - I just couldn't resist my evil inclination! LOL!] > ----------------------------- I don't understand the joke (which I guess it was judging by the winking and outbursts of laughter) but it is good to know what fear is, clearly defined by Abhidhamma and expkained by the wise Dhamma friend. Otherwise we will come up with our own complex theories through a lot of thinking, perhaps fueled by speculation on suttas in translation. Phil #131874 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:43 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > I could add to Sukin's post: citta, cetasika and ruupa are the same as the five khandhas. Nibbaana is not a khandha. > Nina. > Op 20 jul 2013, om 14:57 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > > > The SN suttas do not record the Buddha as saying that 'citta, > > > cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are paramattha dhammas (absolute > > > realities). > Thomas: No, according to the SN suttas, citta, cetasika and ruupa are 'not' the same as the five khandhas. Also, the term cetasika is not found in the SN suttas. The five khandhas are: ruupa-khandha, vedanaa-khandha, sa~n~naa-khandha, sa.mkhaaraa-khandha, and vi~n~n.na-khandha. The five khandhas are regarded as dhammas 'phenomena' (not `paramattha'); they are arisen by condition; Nibbana mainly refers to the cessation of dukkha (not `paramattha'), according to the SN suttas. Thomas #131875 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:07 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- Sukinder wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > Thomas: Also, 'citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are not named as paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) in the SN suttas. As mentioned before, the term 'paramattha' and its contents (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana) (See A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhama, p. 25) are simply not found in all suttas, particularly the SN suttas. In other words, in the SN suttas 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', 'the four truths', and 'the middle way' are regarded as the so-called 'things as they really are' (yathaabhuuta.m), and nibbana refers mainly to the cessation of dukkha. The SN suttas do not record the Buddha as saying that 'citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are paramattha dhammas (absolute realities). One may consider 'why', for accurately understanding the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. > ------ > Sukin: And maybe for a change, instead of pointing out that it does not exist in this or that Nikaya or anywhere in the Tipitaka, you can tell us why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? What is wrong with classifying conditioned phenomena in terms of citta, cetasika and rupa and why you do not believe in the existence of the unconditioned Nibbana? Citta, cetasika and rupa correspond with the First and the Second Noble Truths. Nibbana is the Third Noble Truth. Do you agree with this, if not, please explain why? > ------ > Sukin: why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? ... Thomas: First, the Buddha did not use the term for his teachings (according to the SN suttas). Second, the concept of `paramattha' is being used in the sense of a metaphysical entity, which is far away from the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. Thomas #131876 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:36 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > --- Sukinder wrote: > > > > Hi Thomas, > > > > Thomas: Also, 'citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are not named as paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) in the SN suttas. As mentioned before, the term 'paramattha' and its contents (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana) (See A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhama, p. 25) are simply not found in all suttas, particularly the SN suttas. In other words, in the SN suttas 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', 'the four truths', and 'the middle way' are regarded as the so-called 'things as they really are' (yathaabhuuta.m), and nibbana refers mainly to the cessation of dukkha. The SN suttas do not record the Buddha as saying that 'citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana' are paramattha dhammas (absolute realities). One may consider 'why', for accurately understanding the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. > > > ------ > > Sukin: And maybe for a change, instead of pointing out that it does not exist in this or that Nikaya or anywhere in the Tipitaka, you can tell us why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? What is wrong with classifying conditioned phenomena in terms of citta, cetasika and rupa and why you do not believe in the existence of the unconditioned Nibbana? Citta, cetasika and rupa correspond with the First and the Second Noble Truths. Nibbana is the Third Noble Truth. Do you agree with this, if not, please explain why? > > > ------ > > > Sukin: why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? ... > > Thomas: First, the Buddha did not use the term for his teachings (according to the SN suttas). Second, the concept of `paramattha' is being used in the sense of a metaphysical entity, which is far away from the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. > ------- Thomas: Also, as I mentioned before, according to the SN suttas, there is no need to name paramattha dhammas or absolute realities, but to see and to know directly body and mind phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres)as they really are as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', and as 'the middle way'. Regards, Thomas #131877 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas sukinderpal Hi Thomas, > > Sukin: And maybe for a change, instead of pointing out that it does > not exist in this or that Nikaya or anywhere in the Tipitaka, you can > tell us why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? What is wrong > with classifying conditioned phenomena in terms of citta, cetasika and > rupa and why you do not believe in the existence of the unconditioned > Nibbana? Citta, cetasika and rupa correspond with the First and the > Second Noble Truths. Nibbana is the Third Noble Truth. Do you agree > with this, if not, please explain why? > > > ------ > > > Sukin: ... why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? ... > > Thomas: First, the Buddha did not use the term for his teachings > (according to the SN suttas). Second, the concept of `paramattha' is > being used in the sense of a metaphysical entity, which is far away > from the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. > Is pointing out the experience or object of experience "now", such as seeing or visible object, hearing or sound, mind or mental objects, an exercise in metaphysics? Do you object to this or the fact that they are labeled as paramattha dhamma or citta, cetasika and rupa? The Buddha talked about the development of Right Understanding of what is real. Paramattha dhammas as citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana is taught in the Abhidhamma and its commentaries which you apparently do not to accept as coming from the Buddha i.e. according to you, it is not "Early Buddhism". But what is real and therefore to be understood by wisdom, has been classified in the Suttas in more than one way, for example, The Four Noble Truths, the Five Khandhas, the 12 Ayatanas and the 18 Dhatus. Do you see any conflict between these? If Paramattha dhammas appear as too metaphysical, please express in your own words, what it means to develop Right Understanding and what is it that one develops this understanding of. Sukin #131878 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:34 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- Sukinder wrote: > > Sukin: Is pointing out the experience or object of experience "now", such as seeing or visible object, hearing or sound, mind or mental objects, an exercise in metaphysics? Do you object to this or the fact that they are labeled as paramattha dhamma or citta, cetasika and rupa? ... please express in your own words, what it means to develop Right Understanding and what is it that one develops this understanding of. As I mentioned before, there is no need to name paramattha dhammas or absolute realities, but to see and to know directly body and mind phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres)as they really are as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', and as 'the middle way', according to the SN suttas. Those teachings are practically for the ending of dukkha(cf. the book, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, Chapters 2-7). Regards, Thomas #131879 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas sukinderpal Hi Thomas, > > > Sukin: ... why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? ... > > > > Thomas: First, the Buddha did not use the term for his teachings > (according to the SN suttas). Second, the concept of `paramattha' is > being used in the sense of a metaphysical entity, which is far away > from the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. > > > ------- > > Thomas: > > Also, as I mentioned before, according to the SN suttas, there is no > need to name paramattha dhammas or absolute realities, but to see and > to know directly body and mind phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five > aggregates, the sense spheres)as they really are as 'anicca, dukkha, > anatta', as 'the four truths', and as 'the middle way'. > The development of Right Understanding is of what is real, therefore what is understood are the particular and general characteristics of mental and physical phenomena, not what they are called / labelled. But calling and labeling is necessary, not only when it comes to hearing / studying, but also when communicating to others what is understood. There is therefore the question of choice of labels. I find the description in terms of citta, cetasika and rupa very helpful, as it helps me to think in terms of realities instead of and away from, the tendency to think in terms of people, things, situations and conventional activities. How is citta, cetasika and rupa not congruent with the perception and understanding as aggregates and the sense spheres? And why can't paramattha dhammas be understood as having the characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta? What do you understand by the "middle way"? Sukin #131880 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas sukinderpal Hi Thomas, > > > Sukin: Is pointing out the experience or object of experience "now", > such as seeing or visible object, hearing or sound, mind or mental > objects, an exercise in metaphysics? Do you object to this or the fact > that they are labeled as paramattha dhamma or citta, cetasika and > rupa? ... please express in your own words, what it means to develop > Right Understanding and what is it that one develops this > understanding of. > > As I mentioned before, there is no need to name paramattha dhammas or > absolute realities, but to see and to know directly body and mind > phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres)as > they really are as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', and > as 'the middle way', according to the SN suttas. Those teachings are > practically for the ending of dukkha(cf. the book, The Fundamental > Teachings of Early Buddhism, Chapters 2-7). > Seeing now, is vinnana khandha, it is the Noble Truth of Dukkha and it is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Seeing now is citta and this citta is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Are not both these propositions correct? If not, can you please explain why? Sukin #131881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma nilovg Dear Selamat, dear Bogor group, apa kabar? Op 20 jul 2013, om 15:04 heeft Nana Palo het volgende geschreven: > We have a discussion in the daily discussion on garuka kamma subject. > > There Re two question on whether someone that under alcohol influence or dream to do a matricide or patricide is considered as garuka kamma or not. ------- N: When under influence of alcohol, one is able to do any kind of akusala kamma. Even matricide or patricide. It is good to realize the danger of intoxication, and this is more important than just trying to find out: is it this or is it that degree. As to performing akusala kamma in a dream, perhaps it is rather akusala citta, but not garuka kamma. I think it is difficult to measure all such things and it is more important to see the danger of akusala. When there are conditions it can arise at any time. The latent tendencies that we all have accumulated can condition the arising of akusala citta , even unexpectantly. The development of right understanding of whatever dhamma appears now is the way for lessening conditions for akusala kamma. Ignorance of realities accompanies each akusala citta, and therefore ignorance should be eliminated by the development of the reality appearing now. It is always now that is important. The Dhamma is not a question of understanding names or theoretical questions. ------ Nina. #131882 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I read on p.30 of SPD the above, "rupas of the body cannot arise without citta." I can understand that is true about pasada rupas but aren't there "rupas of the body" that are not pasada rupas and therefore can arise without citta? ... S: I think it means that kamma produces these and other rupas throughout life from the first moment (patisandhi citta). When kamma ceases to produce rupas, i..e when there are no more cittas of this lifespan (cuti citta), there is no more body/being, just a corpse. Metta Sarah ==== #131883 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:49 pm Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? philofillet Hi Sarah I see, thank you. Phil #131884 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:21 pm Subject: Re: awareness and thinking philofillet Dear Group A very Useful Post on the important topic of nimitta. I highlight one passage, but please enjoy the rest: "What appears now is the nimitta of reality. We begin to understand different levels of the meaning of nimitta and after that...when just a characteristic appears to the developed pa~n~na its the understanding of the nimitta of that characteristic - only one characteristic.""This is yoniso manasikaara itself." Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" Dear Nina, All, > > I found the session on nimitta; February 2, 2006, a. > > Here are some quotes; very important and interesting: > > "In reality when there is the realisation that there is nothing > permanent, what appears now is only nimitta." > > "[Nimitta is] the succession of the reality which keeps on arising and > falling away through one doorway at a time." > > "The succession of the arising and falling away of ruupa, vedanaa, > sa~n~na, the sankharas and vi~n~nana are all nimittas." > > "What appears now is the nimitta of reality. We begin to understand > different levels of the meaning of nimitta and after that...when just > a characteristic appears to the developed pa~n~na its the > understanding of the nimitta of that characteristic - only one > characteristic." > > "This is yoniso manasikaara itself." > > "Now seeing is exactly the same. Visible object appears as visible > object but the moment of understanding visible object - visible object > is exactly the same. If one is trying very hard to make it different > that is wrong because the development of pa~n~na is the development of > pa~n~na, not the development of 'I who can do this or I who can do > that' at all. So at the moment of appearing of visible object right > now - very natural - there can be moment of understanding the > characteristic that's just this - its a reality, and at that moment we > can use the term 'no attention to concept' even [though] there [are] > the things like before, its the beginning of understanding. The seed > of the understanding of the reality which is now appearing...even > [though] there [are] many moments of seeing and concept...there can be > the process of vaara of the moment of understanding visible object as > just that. And this is the development of sati and pa~n~na..." > > For further discussion... > > Scott. > #131885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:19 pm Subject: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. nilovg Dear friends, I could follow part of the talks (sent out life on Sunday) in Bgk. Perhaps Jagkrit can add to this. There was a question on chanda (wish-to-do) as being part of the "roads to power", iddhi paada. These are chanda, viriya (energy), citta and investigation of dhamma (viima"msa). They are predominent factors and they are among the enlightenment factors, bodhipakkhiya dhammas. T.A. said that while reading about them one may just think of the names but that is not the way to understand them. There is the expression dhammanudhamma patipatti, practice of dhamma according to the dhamma. Anudhamma are the dhammas leading to enlightenment, and these are not names, but they can appear now. We take seeing for self and that means that pa~n~naa has not been sufficiently developed. Pa~n~naa needs other dhammas to asist it: confidence (saddhaa) hiri, ottappa (shame and fear of blame of akusala), sutta which is listening to the dhamma. Is there confidence now? When we read the Tipitaka we should remember that this concerns the daily life of everybody, that it deals with kusala and akusala. When we speak about seeing is there vipassanaa or not?Is seeing known as an element that experiences? There is chanda, but is it a factor of enlightenment, an iddhipaada, road to power? When we listen, is there satipa.t.thaana? Pa~n~naa is not yet of the degree of understanding characteristics as only dhamma. We have to listen again. While we listen there is chanda, but is it an iddhipaada? There is viriya, energy, but is it a road to power? Sati that arises while we listen is not the same as sati that accompanies pa~n~naa that knows the characterstics of realities. There is sati of the level of pariyatti (intellectual understanding) and of the level of patipatti. Sound appears and has it been understoodas it is? When it is not understood it just passes. All realities of daily life can be objects of satipatthaana. Understanding the meaning of sound, such as sound of thunder, is ordinary, it is just thinking. A dhamma appears but it has not been understood. When sati sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa) arises, it is different; there is understanding of a characteristic that is ordinary but that was not understood before. Usually body-consciousness experiences hardness and then falls away, and it is not known as it is. But when sati arises it is different, then the characteristic of hardness is understood. -------- Nina. #131886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking nilovg Dear Phil, thank you for highlighting, please do that more often. Always useful. I copied the post in my file important quotes. Nina. Op 21 jul 2013, om 14:21 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > A very Useful Post on the important topic of nimitta. I highlight one passage, but please enjoy the rest: "What appears now is the nimitta of reality. We begin to understand > different levels of the meaning of nimitta and after that...when just > a characteristic appears to the developed pa~n~na its the > understanding of the nimitta of that characteristic - only one > characteristic.""This is yoniso manasikaara itself." #131887 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:16 am Subject: Re: A Challenge - KH/Thomas htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Tony, --- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- KH: Have you offered any refutations? I remember Jon asked you for an explanation of why things could not exist outside experience. Your only reply was to say you had already explained it. But where? I certainly believe dhammas exist when they are not being experienced. This belief is supported by the conventionally known world, which is often a shadow of ultimate reality. In the conventionally known world a clock on a wall in an empty room keeps ticking. When someone enters the room and looks at the clock it tells the right time. That means it was still there, ticking away, when no one was watching it. It's the same in ultimate reality. Consciousness (citta) and mental factors (cetasika) exist when there is no consciousness of them. In fact, that is the only time when they do exist. By the time citta can, in turn, become an object of citta it has already fallen away. Only its nimitta can be experienced. But don't let me spoil your suggestion: please construct a salient statement that I can use as a reference point. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So clear is the argument. Good! Dhammas are dhammas. They arise. They fall away. A citta arises and falls away. So do many many other cittas at the exact same time. Cetasikas also arise with citta, to which they all match with regard to functions, existances, objects. Again dhammas do not arise randomly but they arise in line with conditioned dhammas and causes. Cause & result relation always always exists. If there is no cause then there is no resultant dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131888 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:22 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, all, > > > >I think this is due to misunderstanding on dhamma. Upanissaya paccaya >should have been learnt. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Not just learned, but developed. Some talk about that "when the conditions are right...", well, sorry to burst someone's bubble but conditions will NEVER be right until one sets them. This is the point of practice, to develop these conditions for certain results to occur. > Otherwise it all sounds like Indian version of "God's grace". > "We can't do anything, so lets just wait when conditions come some time in some future aeon". > > The double standard is that some claim that meditation is all about the future (thus "bad"), and yet say how panna will be developed in the far far future and consider this to be the way.. > > > > >Kusala condition akusala, akusala condition kusala. > >Kusala condition abyaakata, abyaakata condition kusala. > >Akusala condition abyaakata, abyaakata condition akusala. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > ?????????? > > > With metta, > > Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just go with paccaya-dhamma. This dhamma will be the first to disappear from this world because it is the most difficult. KCA-ACK KCA-ACK ACA-ACA With Metta, Htoo Naing #131889 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:41 am Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? nichiconn dear friend, Sarah: ... When kamma ceases to produce rupas, i..e when there are no more cittas of this lifespan (cuti citta), there is no more body/being, just a corpse. c: the corpse/body rupas with heat to the rescue - err, rot. why, it's a miracle! one rupa, one instant of arising. 49 of decay. one of falling/death. Continuity at it's best, connie #131890 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:14 am Subject: Re: G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma nichiconn dsg (dear study group), > > There Re two question on whether someone that under alcohol influence or dream to do a matricide or patricide is considered as garuka kamma or not. > c: What is done in a dream is thinking only, so the consequences are different from when the same kinds of things are done in waking life. The monk is not required to disrobe because of dream acts that would defeat him in waking life. The dream stuff is not a/kusala kamma patha. connie nothing is lost #131891 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:47 am Subject: Re: A Challenge - KH/Thomas nichiconn dsg, > Htoo: A citta arises and falls away. So do many many other cittas at the exact same time. c: but only one citta at a time for any given being. connie #131892 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:59 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Dear Sukin, The points that I agree are dropped. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Hello Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The point of the congratulating is because no more defilements, "the work is done". The Sotapanna still has defilements, but the "stream" has been entered and therefore only seven lifetimes to go at the maximum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha congratulayed 'patta dhammo' 'vusita dhammo' 'kata.m kara.niiyo' 'having done what has to be done with regard to nibbaana'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So you are referring to samma samadhi as a separate practice which is supposed to help panna of the Eightfold Path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. But I would rather give you examples. Have you ever taste a chicken curry? Taste. Could you tell me the taste? You would say "It is salty. Or it is spicy. Or it is sweet. Or it is sour. Our it is bitter." Actually there are different tastes. There what you recognize most will appear to your mind and you would say 'some of them even though there are many'. I am not lateralizing. When kusala dhamma arise as javana cittas there is a citta along with 19 cetasikas and if the kusala is tihetuka there will be panna as well. If kusala thing is karu.naa then there also is karuna cetasika. There are dhamma like ekaggata, cetana, sanna, saddha, sati, vitakka,viriya etc. Although there are many sometime one dhamma is used as a head-dhamma. All go hand in hand. Without samaadhi there will not be panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is not samma samadhi in fact ekaggata cetasika made "right" by virtue of being conditioned by samma ditthi? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Theoretically right. Sammaa-samaadhi is not just simple ekaggataa. It has to be built. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Does not panna when developed, becomes indriya and bala and this is what reflects the ease in arising regardless of whether the preceding dhamma and object is kusala, akusala or avyakata? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is panna indriya or bala only because samadhi is indriya and bala? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is right. Balancing of indriya is required. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Not true that you express lack of confidence. Your other words in above bay seem right and good. Sukin: Can you rephrase? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Bay' is what I lined with 'dotted lines' above and below. So agreed points are left. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You miss the point. Hearing the Dhamma and appreciating it, leads to seeing value in continued listening rather than to the idea of doing something / practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You seem hating 'the idea of doing something'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: What do you understand by "cira kala bhavana"? Is this a matter of 10, 20, 30 or 80 years, or uncountable lifetimes? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cira = long time, cira.m = time-takenly, prolongedly Cirassa kaalo --> cirakaalo Cirakaalassa bhaavanaa --> cirakaala bhaavanaa No need to count. But it is not short surely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If there is no Pariyatti understanding, wrong attainments will find confirmation in the Tipitaka what it seeks. A very dangerous position to be in. Begin again and again, which is none other than what appears "now". Do you think someone who has attained will want to check with the Tipitaka what he has experienced, or he will just keep developing understanding of the reality NOW? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What do you mean by wrong attainment? If it is wrong practice there is nothing to attain. The attainers do not need chechking because checking has already been done in first javana after attainment as paccavekkha.naa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Are you serious about such practices? Do you really believe that they are valid? The Dhamma is One and has one taste. The Path is one. Why would there be difference in practice instructions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are similarities and there also are dissimilarities. The arising of milestones are the same but when someone passes quickly he did not see all milestones. When passed slowly he saw all milestones. The Path is one. But cars are not the same. Engines are not the same. Tyres are not the same. Car-bodies are not the same. One passed one's own path. But there can be generalization. Example: Metta is adosa. But metta in a dog, in a man, in a monk, in a sotapanna, in the Buddha will not be the same even though characterwise it can be said that it is adosa or metta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Have you and any of the teachers ever checked with the Tipitaka regarding these practices? Are you interested only in the "result" and not in the causes? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am interested in almost everything. I do search the causes, I do look at the results, I do check the presence of associations, I do track the presence of complications. 'Cause and effect' only is like head and tail only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Practice is conditioned namas / sankhara dhammas or is it something else? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1. sappuurisa sa.mveso 2. saddhamma savana.m Tipitaka needs at leats 7 years just for touch. But for practice not evry detail is needed. Associate with wiseman and being taught by wiseman are the first two parts what you said. This is done before going into practice. 3. yoniso manasikaara 4. dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa 3 & 4 require dhamma teachers. Need to be instructed otherwise will miss nibbaana. "NO PRACTICE NO NIBBAANA". Neyya puggalaa have to do practice otherwise will miss the greatest chance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I have a teacher too, A. Sujin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are very very lucky to have such teacher. Unlike you, I have many teachers and I had many many many teachers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But I go to her to listen to the Dhamma and to ask questions related to Dhamma. My knowledge of Dhamma is at the infant level. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you are at the infant, I will be in zygotic stage. Sukin, you are far more excel in Dhamma than me. I am studying and studying. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But by this I do not mean "book knowledge", but of what appears from moment to moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When in real practice, 'moment to moment' matter is no more theoretical but in real timeline. Things as they really are seen one after another in clear background. What is not seen is 'bhava`nga-cittas'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is this what you have in mind when you suggest that those people in the Tipitaka who went in search of teachers knew more Dhamma than I do? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :>) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Entertaining and believing in such stories, how does this reflect development of Right Understanding? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Entertainment is not my job. Right understanding does not arise without practice. Without bhaavanaa, without satipatthana, without vipassana, without practice there is no sotapanna, no sakadagam, no anagam, no arahats. They did have theoretical knowledge and understanding. But there was no pa.tivedha because there was no pa.tipatti. That is why they were sent to teachers who would guide them to attain nibbaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The kind of thinking that you express here is something people of other religions also express. As Dhamma students we know what it in fact takes to determine whether someone has good sila or not, but more importantly, that it is Right View which is important and what really determines whether someone has this or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Do you mean that the people I talked about had wrong view? Opposite. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So you do know that it is Right Understanding which is important and that it is through questioning / discussion that one comes to know whether this is present or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand what you mean. Could you please put it in another way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Well, I was talking about me and everyone else on this list who have expressed disagreement with you regarding the concept of "practice". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually I am interested in dhammas and the Dhamma not in people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Htoo: (((> Pupils of Mahasi Sayadaw could experience bhava`ngacittas even though not directly.))) > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > > > > I see. > > But your "practice" comes across to me, as miccha patipatti, and you > > want to convince me that you have experienced (although indirectly) > > bhavanga cittas and be impressed? > > > > Metta, > > > > Sukin > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I am not trying for impression. I did not say I see bhava`nga cittas. > Sukin: So you were talking about someone else who has claimed to know bhavanga cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please look through this post again. There is a part that I had written. Did I say as you said? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: How do you know that what they claim is true? Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If moment to moment is known clearly this matter will be solved automatically. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131893 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Alex: Dear Sukin, all, Jhanalabhi does not guarantee correct views for all people in all cases. It can however be helpful at some stages, and 4 jhanas are required for the path because they form samma-samadhi factor of Noble Eightfold Path. There is no way around it. Either accept N8P or N7P, or worse N1P. The Buddha didn't want to teach Dhamma at first. When He reconsidered whom to teach, guess what, he wanted to teach his two teachers who were masters of jhanas and some arupa jhanas. ----------------------------------------- Alex: IMHO, if one truly understands the harm of kama, then one (baring any other conditions) have no problem entering rupajhanas. Often it is the attachement to the kama which is big hindrance to Jhanas. ------------------------------------------- Alex: One can build an "ego" around meditation as much as one can build an ego around knowledge. Writing books, giving lectures, having degrees, etc, can be as much ego building as meditation... Except that when jhana occurs, the 5 hindrances are suppressed, unlike when listening to lecture. My personal opinion is that if "knowledge" doesn't translate into less clinging and hindrances, then it is not really "knowledge" at all. -------------------------------------------- Sukin: >But the question here is what is the more important and > >difficult step, from a puthujjana to sotapatti or from sotapatti > >through sakadagami and anagami to arahatta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Alex: Difficult for whom? Part of the difficulty is to be born a human, in a time of Buddha Sasana, in relatively good conditions (starving African kid that has to kill to survive would not be generaly a good condition), encountering the teaching, be with enough understanding, etc. 99.999% are not in that situation. Just look at population of insects vs humans. I wonder about difficulty of becoming a sotapanna for a person who has relatively good conditions, knows about Buddhism and *wants* to become sotapana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Alex: The path to Arhatship is Noble Eightfold Path which includes samma-samadhi that includes 4 Jhanas. With best wishes, Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Welldone! Welldone! " Ekaayano, bhikkhave, maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa......." The ONLY path. All sammaasambuddhas, all paccekabuddhas, all arahats have to pass this VERY PATH, the only PATH. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131894 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:48 am Subject: Re: Samma samadhi vs. ekagatta cetasika with any kusala (Nina) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Group > > This question is for Nina. (Please abstain from answering, Htoo, until after Nina has responded, thanks) > > I am confused about the idea of " samma samadhi." Is it not the same as the ekagatta cetasika that arises with every kusala citta? > > Thanks > > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, Nina and all, As Nina has answered very well and responded to Phil, I think I am now not in the state of 'prohibition' or 'inhibition'. 'Sammaa' means 'right'. This right is exact right. If something is 3 feet long it has 3 feet in its length. One feet-square has a foot in length and a foot in breadth. That square is identical with another square that has a foot length and a foot breadth. 3 feet radiused circle has 3 feet in its radius. That circle is identical with another circle which has a radius of 3 feet. 'Samaadhi' 'Samatha' 'concentration' seem synonyms. When fishing one has to have a good concentration. When shooting a beast a hunter has to have a good concentration. It is concentration. Not samaadhi. But 'an adjective' is added to it as 'micchaa'. So micchaa-samaadhi is actually not samaadhi. Micchaa-samaadhi does not have 19 good-mental-factors and it does not have pannaa. It may be wisdom but not panna. Wisdom to fish, wisdom to hunt. This wisdom is not panna. Difference between 'kusala sammaadhi' and 'sammaa-samaadhi of NEP': Kusala samaadhi is there in 'kaamaavacara-dvihetuka-mahaa-kusala cittas which are javana cittas'. Also in 'kaamaavacara-tihetuka-mahaa-kusala cittas which are javana cittas'. Dvihetuka cittas do not comprise "panna" at all. Jhaana cittas are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS tihetuka cittas. Jhaana freeze iriyaapatha (sitting, standing, lying not walking). If someone has been in jhaana that jhaana is tihetuka and with panna. If not jhaana then kusala cittas may be dvihetuka cittas (without panna) or tihetuka cittas with panna. Anyway jhaanas are always tihetuka and with panna while "so called understanding present moment" may or may not have panna. If understand and like that understanding in subtle way in the power of ta.nhaa or lobha than that "so called understanding present moment" is akusala. If there is jhaana this never be akusala. So jhaana is sure that it is with sammaa-samaadhi. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131895 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:57 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Jon, all,. > > > > >J There's a good reason why you've not seen such a quote, and >never >will: there's no equivalent of the term "meditation" in the Pali >texts, so no mention of it, either for or against.!! :-)) > > >>>> > > > > And neither "no-Self", and "no control". Buddha didn't spoke English. > > > When we read about things that Buddha recommended to do, what RobE and others mean by meditation, is most certainly found there and recommended by the Buddha. Moreover, commentaries like VsM do teach intentional development of wisdom, etc. > > =============== > > J: My point is just that the Buddha did not classify his teachings according whether what he was talking about was or was not "meditation". This is a classification that has become popular in recent times only. > > Furthermore, as I understand the current-day concept of meditation, it refers to a *practice undertaken* and so includes mental states other than those that are accompanied by right understanding (or even kusala of any kind). Whereas it seems to me that when the Buddha spoke about awareness and understanding he was referring to those particular mental states only. > > Jon --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nowaday non-Buddhists are talking they are doing 'vipassana'. Their God has sabba~n~nuta ~naa.na. :-) It is like 'kaaya kamma' is taken into their(non-Buddhists) teaching as 'kaaya da.n.da'. Vacii kamma into 'vacii da.n.da' and mano kamma into 'mano da.n.da' Just considering. :>) Htoo Naing #131896 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:11 am Subject: Re: A Challenge - KH/Thomas htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dsg, > > > Htoo: A citta arises and falls away. So do many many other cittas at the exact same time. > > c: but only one citta at a time for any given being. > > connie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Connie, I know what you mean in this matter. Two cittas cannot arise together. But the sound of "explosion" is heard by many many many cittas at the very same time. There is no being, there is no jiiva, there is no atta. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131897 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:42 am Subject: This citta is anicca htoonaing... (((((Seeing now, is vinnana khandha, it is the Noble Truth of Dukkha and it is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Seeing now is citta and this citta is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Are not both these propositions correct? If not, can you please explain why? Sukin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Is citta anicca? Is citta dukkha? Is citta anatta? The first thing to do is 1. to see ruupa or naama 2. to see sukha, to see dukkha, to see adukkamasukha 3. to see pathavii, to see tejo, to see vaayo, to see aapo 4. to see ruupa, to see vedana, to see sa~n~naa, to see sa`nkhaaraa, to see vi~n~naa.na.m 5. to see pathavii, tejo, vaayo, aapo, aakaasa, vi~n~naa.na.m This seeing has to be done many many many times. Proliferation of seeing. Cirakaale one will see anicca-ness, dukkha-ness, anatta-ness on those dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131898 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:48 am Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > I read on p.30 of SPD the above, "rupas of the body cannot arise without citta." I can understand that is true about pasada rupas but aren't there "rupas of the body" that are not pasada rupas and therefore can arise without citta? > ... > > S: I think it means that kamma produces these and other rupas throughout life from the first moment (patisandhi citta). When kamma ceases to produce rupas, i..e when there are no more cittas of this lifespan (cuti citta), there is no more body/being, just a corpse. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, Phil and all, I think this is not complete. If there is no more kamma then there is no more kammaja-ruupa or kammogenic ruupa. But there can still be cittaja-ruupa or citta-generated ruupa. At the time of cuti there is last moment of kammaja-ruupa. After death the corpse still has cittaja-ruupa for about 49 mini-cittakkha.nas. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131899 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:07 am Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? nichiconn thanks, Htoo. connie also, i'm going to have to keep thinking there is jiivita! satta is something else, whether we think humanly, brahma-like or yakkhish. long live indra... c ========= box cars ;) Htoo: At the time of cuti there is last moment of kammaja-ruupa. After death the corpse still has cittaja-ruupa for about 49 mini-cittakkha.nas. #131900 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to infer an aspect of the teachings from a description in the suttas of how some monks spent their time. > > RE: "Some monks?" Really? Whether you think it is significant or not, meditation was and is the core of monastic life. *All* monks is more like it. > =============== J: The question is whether it is safe to draw inferences like this (i.e., as to what the "core of monastic life" was) from descriptions of life in the Buddha's time, rather than from the Buddha's actual teaching as spoken by him. In any event, my understanding from a limited knowledge of the Pali canon is that monastic life embraced a wide range of lifestyles (urban vs. village/country, teaching vs. samatha, communal vs. solitary, etc.), and that by no means all monks who attained enlightenment did so with jhana as basis; in fact, such monks were probably a minority. What is the source of your understanding that "meditation was and is the core of monastic life"? > =============== > J: We have the Buddha's actual words as spoken, and surely it is these -- as elaborated upon by the commentaries -- that are the best source of his message. > > RE: Well that's the problem. As you agree, for whatever reason, the Buddha did not refer to the word "meditation." Many people think much else of what he said describes and defines meditation, but can't prove it because of the lack of such usage. > =============== J: Pardon this observation, but when I hear it said that "the problem is the Buddha did not specifically mention "meditation"", I do wonder whether a rational discussion is possible :-)) I'm not saying we should be limited to the use of words that are found in the Pali canon, and I have no objection in principle to using other terms that are more familiar nowadays. However, if we want to discuss the teachings in terms other than those found in the Canon, we should explain clearly which part or parts of the teachings our preferred term is representing, and why we think it is useful to (re-)classify/present that part of the teachings in that manner. > =============== > > J: In sutta after sutta, we are told how people hearing a teaching given by the Buddha became enlightened there and then, sometimes on a first meeting. This suggests that it was their understanding of the content of the talk, rather than the following of a practice, that was the basis for their enlightenment. > > RE: Or the power of the Buddha. > =============== J: I don't think the Buddha ever claimed any power to bring people to enlightenment. His only claim in this regard was as the peerless teacher of other beings, able to see any being's potential for enlightenment and to know what is best to be heard by that individual. > =============== > > J: What I've said is that orthodox Buddhism does not teach that the development of awareness/insight is dependent on time, place, posture or the like. > > RE: When you use the term "Orthodox Buddhism" it's like a catch-all that does not really disclose where the authority is coming from. ... > > But I do not think it is fair to call it orthodox. That is misleading. It presumes that your view is the only correct one, even though there are no direct statements of the Buddha that support such a claim, and most Buddhists do not look at the practice the same way. And it precludes any serious argument, since it is already established that this view must be correct. > =============== J: OK, point taken. Please substitute "the Pali canon" for any reference to "orthodox Buddhism". My purpose in making such statements is to convey the fact that I am explaining, to the best of my understanding, what is in the texts, rather than stating an independently formed view/interpretation of my own. Jon #131901 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:51 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_022 (DT 909 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, There are seven purifications. The first is purification of morality. For lay people the modified five basic precept is enough. Those who are looking for supramundane thing have to have as little sensuous things as possible even though sensual things, which are not worldly wrong, are still acceptible for lay people. For those people who are totally devoted and for those who have been changed into monkhood or bhikkhuu, they all have to abide what the Buddha set as vinaya. This is not separated from understanding, which usually referred to as samma ditthi. Again there also is samma sankappa that co-arises with samma ditthi. From view point of cetasikas there are 3 virati cetasikas and they can never co-arise in lokiya or worldly situations. They arise together only when path-consciousness arises. This path-consciousness arises only a moment and it never re-arises. Actually at the time of arising of path consciousness there is no physical movement or verbal movement and also there is no action related to livelihood. The thing here is that purification of morality has to be built up along with understanding and right thought. For this siila has to be studied in detail. After some time siila is understood and there arises siila even though one does not need to do specifically. Again regarding siila there are three forms of siila. One is pre-determined one, the next is confrontation one and the third is eradication one. The third is not the functions of people who are looking for supramundane things but the function of path consciousness. Confrontation here I mean one avoid at the time of a chance coming to him to commit or to break the basic precept. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-22 DT-909 #131902 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: As I see it, this is a description of the different kinds of kusala, arranged in ascending order. So the teaching is a 'gradual' one in the sense that it leads by stages to the kusala that is awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas, this being the "exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana)" and the highest level of kusala. > > > > RE: I don't know if you mean this in a different way, but as I read it, it seems that this gives some credence to the idea that by ascending through the various types of kusala, perhaps from simplest to more difficult, one gradually reaches the level of kusala that opens up the path. > > =============== > > J: I don't think that the passage can be taken to suggest that the development of the path involves "ascending through the various types of kusala". I was sort of quoting you, you know. This is what you said: "So the teaching is a 'gradual' one in the sense that it leads by stages to the kusala that is awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas." What should I take that to mean with regard to the hierarchy of kusala forms and how they lead up to insight? > Of course, context is all important. You may find it interesting to read a sutta in which the passage appears. Here's a link to a translation of the Upaali Sutta (M.56) (the relevant passage appears about half way through): > http://www.vipassana.info/056-upali-e1.htm > > Let me know what you think! I think it's an extremely intense sutta, with which I was not familiar previously. It's a great story, isn't it? I especially enjoyed the deluded teacher vomiting blood at the end - that's a fairly extreme reaction to the Dhamma, is it not? The sutta makes a point probably more important than the one we're discussing, that cetana is more important than speech or action. That seems to go in the opposite direction of the idea that cetana expressed in action is more significant than cetana deferred, but perhaps I am just confused. As for the context of the "gradual teaching," I don't really get the connection - I mean, it's kind of a context, but not much of one. :-) How do you interpret the context? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #131903 From: Nana Palo Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma nana_palo Dear Nina, Greatly appreciate your advice. Our bogor group is well. I forward our members regards to you and this group members. Recently we have been discussing the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Any advice for us would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards, Selamat rodjali Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android #131904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] to Bogor group, bodhipakkhiya dhamma. nilovg Dear Bogor group, Op 22 jul 2013, om 03:43 heeft Nana Palo het volgende geschreven: > Recently we have been discussing the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Any advice for us would be greatly appreciated. ------- N: I just posted part of Acharn Sujin's lecture on this subject. I repeat some of it. Acharn said that while reading about the factors of enlightenment one may just think of the names but that is not the way to understand them. There is the expression dhammanudhamma patipatti, practice of dhamma according to the dhamma. Anudhamma are the dhammas leading to enlightenment, and these are not names, but they can appear now. ------ N: Acharn stresses all the time that we should not cling to names of realities, but understand them as they appear now. They are not abstract, not theory. ------ Acharn: We take seeing for self and that means that pa~n~naa has not been sufficiently developed. Pa~n~naa needs other dhammas to asist it: confidence (saddhaa) hiri, ottappa (shame and fear of blame of akusala), sutta which is listening to the dhamma. Is there confidence now? When we read the Tipitaka we should remember that this concerns the daily life of everybody, that it deals with kusala and akusala. When we speak about seeing is there vipassanaa or not?Is seeing known as an element that experiences? There is chanda, but is it a factor of enlightenment, an iddhipaada, road to power? ------ N: Acharn takes seeing as an example because there is seeing all the time, but we take it for "my seeing". It should be understood as just a reality, a dhamma arising because of conditions: eyesense, visible object or colour. And also, seeing is vipaaka, the result of kamma. Nobody can control the conditions for seeing and it stays just for an extremely short moment, and then it is gone. We think of what is seen, a person, a thing, but that is thinking. not seeing. -------- Acharn: ------ N:Usually we think about the meaning of sound, but what is heard through the earsense is only sound. It has a characteristic that can be experienced without thinking about it. ------- Acharn: -------- N: Direct understanding of characteristics of realities that appear, without having to think about them, is different from thinking about realities or naming them. Let me know if there is anything I should explain more. We have to listen again and agaun, discuss again and again before it sinks in. It takes long before we have really understood, that is normal. Nina. #131905 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:55 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? kenhowardau Hi Phil, A good subject for a post, Phil: ------ <. . .> Ph: I don't understand the joke (which I guess it was judging by the winking and outbursts of laughter) but it is good to know what fear is, clearly defined by Abhidhamma and explained by the wise Dhamma friend. Otherwise we will come up with our own complex theories through a lot of thinking, perhaps fueled by speculation on suttas in translation. ----- KH: I suppose fear is what makes samsara such an unpleasant place. Therefore, it is especially good to know that fear is just a conditioned dhamma. Just like all the other conditioned dhammas it is inherently anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is not suitable for anything except dispassion, disinterest and renunciation. Move on folks, there's nothing to see here. Ken H #131906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 21 jul 2013, om 02:43 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: Thomas: No, according to the SN suttas, citta, cetasika and ruupa are 'not' the same as the five khandhas. Also, the term cetasika is not found in the SN suttas. The five khandhas are: ruupa-khandha, vedanaa-khandha, sa~n~naa-khandha, sa.mkhaaraa-khandha, and vi~n~n.na-khandha. The five khandhas are regarded as dhammas 'phenomena' (not `paramattha'); they are arisen by condition; Nibbana mainly refers to the cessation of dukkha (not `paramattha'), according to the SN suttas. -------- N: Ruupa-khandha are just ruupas, physical phenomena that do not know anything. Vi~n~naana-khandha, these are cittas, realities that experience something. It does not matter how we name it, but its characteristic can be understood when it appears. Seeing appears now, it is Vi~n~naana-khandha. Then there are: vedanaa-khandha, sa~n~naa-khandha, sa.nkhaaraa-khandha. Vedanaa is feeling, it is not citta, it accompanies each citta. It is a cetasika but we should not cling to the name cetasika, it has a characteristic that can be experienced now. Sa~n~naa, remembrance is a cetasika that arises with each citta, it remembers or marks the object. There are not only the cetasikas feeling and remembrance, but many others: kusala, akusala or neither. These are included in sa.nkhaaraa-khandha. When we do not mind names but develop understanding of characterisics that appear right now, we do not fall over terms and names. What matters above all is the development of understanding of what appears right now. Paramattha means in the highest sense, thus, not conventional. A person, a thing, these are conventional notions. Citta, cetasika and ruupa can be experienced now, without having to think about them, they are paramattha dhammas. But you do not have to call them paramatthas. So long as you understand their characteristics as different from conventional notions. Nina. #131907 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:52 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I agree that the Buddha extolled the development of jhana (by those developing the path), but he did not extol anything he called 'meditation'. > > RE: What difference does it make? Developing jhana through cultivating samatha *is* one of the two major forms of Buddhist meditation. It doesn't matter what you call it, does it? If you call it jhana, that's fine with me. I would challenge you to show me someone who is actually in jhana while walking around talking or having a corned beef sandwhich. If there is any such person, you will find them sitting still, usually with eyes closed, breathing slowly and removed from physical sensory awareness. So that is a meditative state however you would like to slice it. Whether you call it jhana, samadhi, dhyana or silent contemplation of Abhidhamma, it's still meditation. > =============== J: Yes, I can see why in ordinary language the term meditative state would be used to describe a person in whom jhaana citta is arising. But the question is whether the development of this so-called meditative state begins with "sitting meditation practice". As far as I'm aware, there's no authority for such a proposition in the texts, even ignoring the fact of the absence of the term "meditation" itself. > =============== > RE: And the other form of Buddhist meditation is that mindfulness kind, where you practice awareness of what is arising in the moment, usually while following the breath. That is meditation too. You can call it mindfulness meditation, cultivation of sati, satipatthana practice, or whatever else might be apropos, but it's meditation as taught by the Buddha. > =============== J: Are you saying that "mindfulness meditation" is simply a synonym for the Pali term "satipatthana", or perhaps for the contents of the Satipatthana Sutta? Or is it a part only of that/those. If the latter (i.e., part only), why focus on a part rather than the whole? > =============== > RE: Looking for the word "meditation" in the suttas is like looking for the word "horse" in a horse barn. There's plenty of horses everywhere, but they don't read or write their own names. > =============== J: But at least we all know what is meant by a "horse" :-)) I've yet to be given a comprehensive and meaningful definition of 'meditation'. > =============== > > J: The Buddha taught about the attainments of mindfulness and jhana, but he never called them 'meditative' attainments, and nor did he ever speak of a 'sitting' practice. These are latter day glosses on the teaching. > > RE: They are descriptions of the actual practice. I don't see any sense in denying what the Buddha and the original monks were doing twenty-four hours a day - if they weren't doing a specific task they were sitting cross-legged and cultivating mindfulness and jhana. That is meditation, not matter what one may say about it, and it was their main activity throughout their lives and throughout the entire tradition. That's my definition of "orthodox." > =============== J: I think you'll find on a closer reading of the texts that only certain monks led a life devoted to the development of samatha, and that for these monks "sitting cross-legged" constituted only a part of the day. > =============== > > J: You are using a coined term ("meditation practice") to describe a specific -- and rather limited -- part of the teachings. > > RE: Well then let's call it what it is, cultivation of jhana and satipatthana through specific practices. If you don't like "meditation" let's just call it jhana practice and satipatthana practice - that's fine with me. These monks and their teacher were practicing, not just waiting for satipatthana to strike them. > =============== J: There are perfectly adequate terms in the suttas already: samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development. 'Development' does not necessarily connote a 'practice' in the sense that you use it here ('jhaana practice' and 'satipatthana practice'), so I would not see those terms as being equivalents. > =============== > RE: I don't know what the problem with "meditation" is, but those practices *are* "Buddhist meditation." There isn't anything else meant by the term. > =============== J: But what is the advantage/benefit of talking about "Buddhist meditation" instead of about samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development? > =============== > > J: And in any event, it's not correct to say that sitting and focussing on breath was prescribed as a way of developing mindfulness -- what we find in the suttas is the teaching of the development of mindfulness for those who are already skilled in anapanasati. > > RE: That's a claim that has never been proven - it's a philosophical presumption based on a particular interpretation of commentary, and in my view it does not match a reasonable reading of the anapanasati or satipatthana sutta. When a sutta says "he breathes..." doing x, it means that the breathing is part of the process, not just a coincidence. There's no similar description for the butcher, the baker or the candle-stick maker, only for those who cultivate jhana and mindfulness with breath as object. Sort of a strange coincidence if jhana and breathing are not part of the package. > =============== J: In the case of the Satipatthana Sutta, the references you mention are 1 part only of the 1st of 4 foundations of mindfulness. And they are spoken for the benefit of those persons in whom samatha and vipassana are already highly developed (this is apparent from the opening words beginning "There is the case where "). So there is a lot more in the Sutta than the part you mention. > =============== > > J: I don't consider it an academic debate at all. The problem is that every time I try to direct our conversation to something other than meditation, you bring it back there! > > RE: Sorry I thought that was what we were talking about. What in your opinion is the legitimate subject of this discussion? This comment also seems strange since we have been talking about the legitimacy of meditation through this entire part of the thread. > =============== J: I didn't put that very well. Yes, we're discussing meditation. But there are times when I've tried to steer the conversation to the development of the path in general, i.e., not just that part of the path that involves what you call meditation. So far to no avail :-)) Jon #131908 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:29 pm Subject: Re: A Challenge - My Final comments... tony.humphreys KH: But don't let me spoil your suggestion: please construct a salient statement that I can use as a reference point. All I seem to do in this forum is rearrange my original premise only to be asked to restate it - presumabely in a manner that will fit in with yours. Someone said once, 'If the truth can be told so it can be understood it will be believed' - the truth is as clear as day to me relying on no faith, assumptions or complex conepts/ideolgies. However, I have run out of ways of describing the obvious and frankly I give up. I understand that what the Prasangikas state threatens and undernmines a lot of what is taken as 'gospel' in here. But I am afraid thats just how it is. I offered a challenge and its been met with a request to state again what I have already stated over and over again. I will read the replies to this thread today but I am afraid I won't be contributing anymore....it is I am afraid an exercise in futility (with the greatest of respect of course!). With Metta, Tony... #131909 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sukin (et al) tony.humphreys Suk: You mean emptiness is empty for emptiness to empty with emptiness emptiness. Whoa, you really are confused...! My advice would be to leave this alone. Metta, Tony... #131910 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:49 pm Subject: Thanks for an interesting time... tony.humphreys KH: Did I get that wrong? If so, I apologise. I believe Dieter (for example) has argued quite often that Dependentent Origination means there are just conditions without any dhammas that are conditioned. Yep, you did get it wrong. Please re-read my previous and comprehensive posts explaining this. KH: We hear so much doubletalk about dhammas existing but not existing "in and of themselves" or "but not existing with own being." It is not surprising that some of us get confused. Its a challenging but equally clear explanation of the Two Truths. If its not grasped thats not the fault of the doctrine, thats capacity. KH: You, Tony, have added to the confusion by telling us dhammas "exist, but their mode of existence is illusory." What is that if not doubletalk? Well, there we have your quandary in a nutshell. What I see as a clear explanation that refutes yours without question, you see as double-talk. this would explain the often air of abject disbelief in the tone of some of your replies. KH: And then, to make matters worse, you tell us that dhammas cannot possibly exist when they are not being experienced - and you say it as if it was a matter of common sense! ...thats because it is common sense. A refutation would have been welcomed at this point instead of another statement with (again) overtones of utter disbelief. Ken, I offered a challenge and that "If you're successful I will turn away from the Prasangika and subscribe to your views in a heartbeat". Your response to this challenge is:- "...KH: Have you offered any refutations? I remember Jon asked you for an explanation of why things could not exist outside experience. Your only reply was to say you had already explained it. But where?" Where? ALL across this forum over and over again in the finest of detail...I am simply not prepared to go over it again and again every time. I have even gone as far as a veritable 'walkthrough' of sorts. No more now. KH: In the conventionally known world a clock on a wall in an empty room keeps ticking. Evidence??? KH: When someone enters the room and looks at the clock it tells the right time. That means it was still there, ticking away, when no one was watching it. Really come on...! Thats making my case for me perfectly. I suspect if you re-read that you might want to either delete or rephrase. As I have said I am walking away now and won't be contributing anymore as its starting to feel a little futile. I have enjoyed debating with you but feel that its starting to cause irritation to yourself and others so as this is certainly not my intention I will gracefully back-out. Take care, Tony... #131911 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:33 pm Subject: Re: A Challenge - My Final comments... philofillet Hi Tony > I will read the replies to this thread today but I am afraid I won't be contributing anymore....it is I am afraid an exercise in futility (with the greatest of respect of course!). > I compliment you on your wisdom. At a certain point people should acknowledge that they are not on the same page and never will be. Which is fine. Phil #131912 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:18 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (4) sarahprocter... Dear Tony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > S: Heat is a reality, not "an appearance to mind". Cooker is a concept which is not conditioned or dependent. It is just an idea thought about. > > Sarah, just because you call heat a 'reality' doesn't change anything. You're not offering any logic as to why heat is different. ... S: Touch the hot surface and what is experienced - heat, (tejo dhatu). Through the body-sense, only hardness/softness, heat/cold or motion can be experienced. These elements experienced through the body-sense are very real. On the contrary, 'cooker' is just an idea. There is no reality of cooker. ... > > How can you say a 'cooker' isn't dependent??? ... S: Because it is not a reality, an element, that arises and falls away. It is merely thought about. The thinking itself is real - it arises and falls away. However, the object of thinking is just imagined or conceived. It's really important to understand the distinction between thinking (a reality) and the object of thinking (a concept). Without this understanding, there will never be an understanding of the distinction between reality and concept. ... >This completely flies in the face of all logic both Buddhist and otherwise. ... S: On the contrary, it is exactly the truth as taught by the Buddha. All the detail is given in the ancient Pali Tipitaka and commentaries, but I don't think you are interested to study it. ... >It is thoroughly and completely dependent upon its aggregate parts, ... S: There are no "aggregate parts" of a cooker - it's just an idea. Hardness is rupa khandha, visible object is rupa khandha, heat is rupa khandha. Because there is no understanding of such elements, we assume a cooker to exist, but it never has and never will. The same refers to a person/being, to Tony or Sarah or to the Buddha for that matter. ... >as well as dependent on whoever made it...ad nauseaum! ... S: More conventional truths only. In terms of absolute realities, as taught by the Buddha, there is no cooker, no person who made it. ... >Even if you're talking specifically about the concept of a cooker....upon what does the concept depend...? ... S: It is just an idea that is thought about, like a dream. ... >It depends upon the appearance to mind of the transitory collection of parts that create the appearance of an inherently existing cooker (illusion). So again, even the concept is a dependent related phenomena. .... S: The various rupas are experienced through sense doors and because of accumulated ways of thinking and perception (sanna cetasika), there is thinking about 'cooker'. Such thinking and memory are thus conditioned, but the concept is not real, does not arise and is not conditioned. ... > > Are you really asking me to believe that things exist outside of experience??? ... S: I'm not asking you to believe anything. What is important is the testing and understanding of what can be proved now. Hang in there! Metta Sarah ===== #131913 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:28 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) sarahprocter... Dear Tony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > > S: Sorry, Tony..... but here we don't look to the Heart Sutra or Mahayana texts:-) So better to stick to your own words, your own understanding and if you want to support it, quote from Theravada texts which we can discuss. > > That's worrying! Many of the 'Mahayana' texts successfully refute many of the conclusions you have arrived at. But I respect your choice to not look there. .... S: With respect, I totally disagree with you. No teaching could ever refute the Buddha's word. I believe it's your loss if there is no consideration of what Ajahn Sujin and we're saying, of what is taught in detail in the Theravada teachings, especially the Abhidhamma. Metta Sarah ===== #131914 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:52 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. jagkrit2012 Dear Nina and friends It is so good that you can joy Thai Discussion live both on every Saturday morning and Sunday whole day. And also English discussion on Saturday afternoon. Your dhamma debrief of Thai dhamma discussion covers all of crucial points. I, however, took some dhamma notes. Hopefully, they can be good reminders somehow. "While sitting now and seeing but doesn't understand seeing, hearing but doesn't understand hearing, how can one start to understand realities." "When speaking of Chanda, one knows the word, but what about now, can one experiences it? This is the way to study dhamma to understand and experience the characteristic as dhamma not ours." "Chanda is satisfaction but not clinging like Lobha." "In daily life, Lobha atteches to many things but Chanda picks one of them." "There can be Chanda to aversion." "Chanda catasika doesn't aries with 18 Ahetuka Cittas and 2 Moha mulla Cittas." "Dhamma is realities which all are impermanent." "One studies dhamma and can remember 89 Cittas. It is sanna (remembrance) but it is atta sanna not anatta sanna. Anatta sanna remembers characteristic of realities which arise and fall away all the time not us nor ours." Anumodhana Jagkrit #131915 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:57 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > Hi Ken H > > Therefore, it is especially good to know that fear is just a conditioned dhamma. Just like all the other conditioned dhammas it is inherently anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is not suitable for anything except dispassion, disinterest and renunciation. Just a reality, performing its function in a way that was enlightened by the Buddha and taught in explicit terms in Abhidhamma and the rest of tipitika. What makes it possible for us to accept this while others are compelled to come up with thinkbombs based on personal interpretations of Mahayana yadayadas? More realities performing functions. Let's feel fortunate for our accumulations, though as you said above just as fear is just a c d that is anicca dukkha and anatta so are panna and other kusala factors associated with benefial accumulations. Just realities rising to performing functions and then fall away, never to appear again Phil #131916 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:31 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. philofillet Hello Jagkrit and Nina > > "When speaking of c handa, one knows the word, but what about now, can one experiences it? This is the way to study dhamma to understand and experience the characteristic as dhamma not ours." > > "Chanda is satisfaction but not clinging like Lobha." I am very wary of the idea of kusala c handa . It seems unlikely to me that we can know the characteristic of c handa . If there is a reality that we think we know to be c handa, it is already lobha, I think. But sometimes I guess I go too far in always assuming lobha lobha lobha. Can't kusala c handa arise and perform its function to condition the consideration of realities or other wholesome behaviour without our knowing its characteristics? Does there have to be awareness of a beneficial reality in order for it to be beneficial? Phil P.s sorry for weird spelling of c handa which my phone turns into Chanda otherwise. #131917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. nilovg Dear Jagkrit, How good to hear from you again, and thank you for the transcriptions. I can only follow a little part of the discussions in Bgk, because the times are so different. For me is best from 3-4 in the afternoon Bgk time. That is for me ten in the morning. Besides, the lectures are interrupted by Dutch advertisements, and I asked someone to help me eliminate them. I was lucky today, a special Dhamma day, and I heard T.A. Perhaps a wan phra? It is so good she reminds us often that it is sankhaarakkhandha doing its work. She talked about samnag, meditation center and whether that was in the Buddha's time. A monk was very interested and expressed his anumodana. Nina Op 22 jul 2013, om 13:52 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > It is sanna (remembrance) but it is atta sanna not anatta sanna. Anatta sanna remembers characteristic of realities which arise and fall away all the time not us nor ours." #131918 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:23 am Subject: Vipassanaa_023 (DT 910 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding purification of morality there are four kinds of siila or practices. They are 1. paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila, 2. Indriya-sa.mvara siila, 3. Aajiivapaarisuddhi siila, and 4. Paccaya-sannissita siila. Please relax first seeing these Paa.li words. They will be explained while the posts are in progress. The first one has been explained in the previous post. It is paatimokkha because when it is abided and followed it will liberate the practitioners of that paatimokkha siila. Siila is practice. Again siila are two kinds with respect to action or not in action. When bad things are avoided that siila is called vaaritta-siila. When good things are done that sliila is called caaritta-siila. In the first paragraph there are four kinds of siila. These four are salad of vaaritta and caaritta. Paatimokkha is avoidance of doing bad things (killing, stealing, misconducting of sensuous pleasure, telling truthless speech, taking intoxicants). Basically when these are avoided then doing bad things are avoided. These bad things are the worst that they definitely bring down the doers to bad spheres of existence. Killing is assoiated with anger or dosa. Niraya or hell is where those who did bad things exist or dwell especially associated with anger. Hell is always with anger and anger is with hell. Once beings have been there it is hard to be released from that sphere of existence. Stealing is associated with greed or lobha. This leads to the sphere of existence called peta who are almost always hungry because of no food and sometimes no water at all. They are with greed to have food and sometimes they are with greed to drink water. And other bad things are also associated with kilesas and they all lead to one of four woeful states. That is why the siila that avoid doing these bad things protects those who practice them. It is called paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-23 DT-910 #131919 From: jadhao@... Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:30 pm Subject: Full moon day of Asalh. mastram101 Today is full moon day of Aasalh (Ashadh in Sanskrit). I think it was on this day the Buddha gave his first sermon Dhammacakka pavattana sutta at Sarnath (isipattana migadava) to the pancavaggiya bhikkhus. Let us observe this day by keeping 8 precepts, meditation charity etc. Rajendra Jadhao Sent from my Android device. #131920 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:39 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: I agree that the Buddha extolled the development of jhana (by those developing the path), but he did not extol anything he called 'meditation'. > > > > RE: What difference does it make? Developing jhana through cultivating samatha *is* one of the two major forms of Buddhist meditation. It doesn't matter what you call it, does it? If you call it jhana, that's fine with me. I would challenge you to show me someone who is actually in jhana while walking around talking or having a corned beef sandwhich. If there is any such person, you will find them sitting still, usually with eyes closed, breathing slowly and removed from physical sensory awareness. So that is a meditative state however you would like to slice it. Whether you call it jhana, samadhi, dhyana or silent contemplation of Abhidhamma, it's still meditation. > > =============== > > J: Yes, I can see why in ordinary language the term meditative state would be used to describe a person in whom jhaana citta is arising. > > But the question is whether the development of this so-called meditative state begins with "sitting meditation practice". As far as I'm aware, there's no authority for such a proposition in the texts, even ignoring the fact of the absence of the term "meditation" itself. Certain things can be talked about theoretically, but in practice may seem to be almost nonsensical. The proposition that someone might experience jhana while eating bacon and eggs is ludicrous. The monks who experienced jhana and used it as basis for enlightenment spent hours and hours and hours sitting with "meditative" intention to develop jhana, whatever you'd like to call it. They practiced at it as hard as Itzhak Perlman practiced the violin. This notion that jhana "just arises" due to past accumulations really defies any record of how it actually takes place, or took place. The basis for concentration and the jhana states were cooked in the cauldron of almost full-time meditation practice, and was then carried forward the rest of the 24 hours intentionally when monks would go begging or otherwise do activities. There are admonitions to this effect in suttas [no don't have a sutta # handy, I'm sorry to say.] Although I would agree with you that there are suttas that indicate that there were monks or lay people who reached enlightenment after hearing the Buddha preach the Dhamma [and the skill in his knowing exactly what to say that you mentioned recently is not incidental to this] the great bulk of his followers, if not all of them, already had extensive jhana practice. A number of suttas, including the anapanasati, indicate great numbers of monks who had been practicing jhana and satipatthana with breath as object, so this was not an occasional or incidental way of practicing to reach enlightenment, it was the norm. I would also agree that even the ability to reach jhana through practice would involve past life accumulations and it is also equally possible that those who reach enlightenment through hearing the Buddha preach may very well have developed accumulations of jhana in past lives as well, so that they had the necessary requirements to go over the threshold, so to speak. In any case, the current tradition around the world of Buddhists, both sutta and Abhidhamma followers in Theravadin traditions of all sorts, all meditate as a major component of their practice of Theravada, not because they accidentally decided it might be fun somewhere along the line, or because they decided to adopt a Hindu or Jain practice in Burma or Vietnam, where there never was a Hindu culture at all, but because it was passed down from the time of the Buddha to the present day by the Buddha and his disciples from generation to generation. Meditation as represented by sitting in order to develop samatha and sati is in fact one of the most "orthodox" components of all Buddhist traditions. Buddha himself was a jhana master, and it was not incidental to his teaching - he was enlightened while practicing jhana at the base of the Bodhi tree, and he entered his parinibbana from the 4th jhana after running the gamut of jhanas up and down the scale. Do you think this was a coincidence, or that the Buddha just wanted to show off his knowledge of jhanas before retiring from this reality? > > =============== > > RE: And the other form of Buddhist meditation is that mindfulness kind, where you practice awareness of what is arising in the moment, usually while following the breath. That is meditation too. You can call it mindfulness meditation, cultivation of sati, satipatthana practice, or whatever else might be apropos, but it's meditation as taught by the Buddha. > > =============== > > J: Are you saying that "mindfulness meditation" is simply a synonym for the Pali term "satipatthana", or perhaps for the contents of the Satipatthana Sutta? Or is it a part only of that/those. If the latter (i.e., part only), why focus on a part rather than the whole? I don't understand this kind of question. The satipatthana sutta, like the anapanasati, starts out with a monk or other practitioner who is practicing mindfulness of breathing. Within the sitting meditation practice of mindfulness of breathing - anapanasati - he then goes through all the other arenas in which mindfulness must be applied. It's all of one cloth, and all in the context of sitting meditation, unless one wants to artificially dissect it and skew it to make it seem like it is something else. > > =============== > > RE: Looking for the word "meditation" in the suttas is like looking for the word "horse" in a horse barn. There's plenty of horses everywhere, but they don't read or write their own names. > > =============== > > J: But at least we all know what is meant by a "horse" :-)) Well in almost any conversation any given day, everyone knows what meditation means too. It's only around here that it seems like some kind of weird tropical plant that just can't be defined no matter how hard one tries. I think it's a fairly artificial problem. Meditation is an attempt to sit or stand still and focus on an object that causes one to enter a more refined or spiritual state in one way or another. In Taoism there is Taoist standing meditation. Everyone knows what it means. One stands, relaxes the eyes, focuses on the breath and breathes naturally with awareness to relax the body and mind and develop concentration. In Buddhist meditation there are specific ways of focusing and breathing and practicing mindfulness, which is beyond other traditions' ways of going into trance or merely relaxing or focusing, but they are still defineable, understandable and not at all weird or unclear. The Buddha describes it with no problem in the anapanasati and satipatthana suttas. They're not all that hard to follow. It's only when we start arguing about what the meaning of "there is the case where" means - whether that is an observation or instruction - that the definition gets all thready, because we're making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition is correct, even though it goes against the plain meaning of the text. If the Buddha is talking about following breathing to develop samatha and sati over and over again, it means that it is a valid and important topic in the practice he is teaching, period. It's not necessary to argue over the meaning of "is" or "the" or whether a root of a tree is a real root or not or whether it is metaphor for equanimity, not a real tree at all. > I've yet to be given a comprehensive and meaningful definition of 'meditation'. Well if the above doesn't satisfy, try the anapanasati sutta. What the Buddha says to do in that sutta - that's meditation. > > =============== > > > J: The Buddha taught about the attainments of mindfulness and jhana, but he never called them 'meditative' attainments, and nor did he ever speak of a 'sitting' practice. These are latter day glosses on the teaching. Doesn't matter. False issue. He always describes someone sitting, focusing on breath, putting mindfulness to the fore and then focusing on the breath some more, then if it is satipatthana, paying attention to the arising of objects of experience in the various areas to which mindfulness can be applied. It's not a mystery. One need only read the instruction manual. "Sit. Attend to breath. Relax the body and mind. Cultivate further relaxation and/or awareness of arising objects of experience. The end." I hope that helps. > > RE: They are descriptions of the actual practice. I don't see any sense in denying what the Buddha and the original monks were doing twenty-four hours a day - if they weren't doing a specific task they were sitting cross-legged and cultivating mindfulness and jhana. That is meditation, not matter what one may say about it, and it was their main activity throughout their lives and throughout the entire tradition. That's my definition of "orthodox." > > =============== > > J: I think you'll find on a closer reading of the texts that only certain monks led a life devoted to the development of samatha, and that for these monks "sitting cross-legged" constituted only a part of the day. Fine, it's part of the day then. No matter how you slice or skew it, sitting meditation was a continual, major and substantial part of the practice of every monk, and the Buddha himself. > > =============== > > > J: You are using a coined term ("meditation practice") to describe a specific -- and rather limited -- part of the teachings. > > > > RE: Well then let's call it what it is, cultivation of jhana and satipatthana through specific practices. If you don't like "meditation" let's just call it jhana practice and satipatthana practice - that's fine with me. These monks and their teacher were practicing, not just waiting for satipatthana to strike them. > > =============== > > J: There are perfectly adequate terms in the suttas already: samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development. 'Development' does not necessarily connote a 'practice' in the sense that you use it here ('jhaana practice' and 'satipatthana practice'), so I would not see those terms as being equivalents. Well, if one is not intent on separating "sitting practice" from "satipatthana development" and "insight development," one will naturally see that they occur together in many, many suttas, and that when insight arises in another setting, it is a specific event based on accumulations and usually the presence of the Buddha himself, otherwise everyone is "cultivating" through "sitting" and "focusing on breath or foundations of mindfulness." It is a sitting practice, and described as such by the Buddha himself. That is the main way that those qualities are developed. > > =============== > > RE: I don't know what the problem with "meditation" is, but those practices *are* "Buddhist meditation." There isn't anything else meant by the term. > > =============== > > J: But what is the advantage/benefit of talking about "Buddhist meditation" instead of about samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development? The advantage is to acknowledge what most Buddhists around the world do: that sitting meditation is a necessity for developing either jhana or insight of any non-intellectual degree, for almost everyone on the planet. It is the Buddhist mechanism by which they are cultivated. > > =============== > > > J: And in any event, it's not correct to say that sitting and focussing on breath was prescribed as a way of developing mindfulness -- what we find in the suttas is the teaching of the development of mindfulness for those who are already skilled in anapanasati. > > > > RE: That's a claim that has never been proven - it's a philosophical presumption based on a particular interpretation of commentary, and in my view it does not match a reasonable reading of the anapanasati or satipatthana sutta. When a sutta says "he breathes..." doing x, it means that the breathing is part of the process, not just a coincidence. There's no similar description for the butcher, the baker or the candle-stick maker, only for those who cultivate jhana and mindfulness with breath as object. Sort of a strange coincidence if jhana and breathing are not part of the package. > > =============== > > J: In the case of the Satipatthana Sutta, the references you mention are 1 part only of the 1st of 4 foundations of mindfulness. And they are spoken for the benefit of those persons in whom samatha and vipassana are already highly developed (this is apparent from the opening words beginning "There is the case where "). So there is a lot more in the Sutta than the part you mention. In my view, they are all based on and take place within the context of the first part. The breathing practice is not just described for part 1, it is the mode that one is in for all four parts. "There is the case where" sets up the condition for the whole sutta, not just the few paragraphs immediately afterwards. > > =============== > > > J: I don't consider it an academic debate at all. The problem is that every time I try to direct our conversation to something other than meditation, you bring it back there! > > > > RE: Sorry I thought that was what we were talking about. What in your opinion is the legitimate subject of this discussion? This comment also seems strange since we have been talking about the legitimacy of meditation through this entire part of the thread. > > =============== > > J: I didn't put that very well. Yes, we're discussing meditation. But there are times when I've tried to steer the conversation to the development of the path in general, i.e., not just that part of the path that involves what you call meditation. So far to no avail :-)) Well we can switch subjects any time, but I thought we should try to resolve this issue once and for all before moving on to the many other topics available. So if you agree with me that meditation is essential to the development of the enlightenment factors, I'm ready to go forward! :-))) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #131921 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:26 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) nichiconn dsg, 99.999% are not in a situation to be concerned with jhaana and any 'fourth estate', to be sure... plenty of time after the first truly 8-fold noble moment to worry about Nanda's nymphs. Sotapanna wanted, jhaana not required... inquire within. connie > 99.999% are not in that situation. Just look at population of insects vs humans. > > I wonder about difficulty of becoming a sotapanna #131922 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:50 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts truth_aerator Hello RobertE, Jon, all, Few summaries and my comments: Jhana (and anything else) arises due to conditions. But, it will never arise if one doesn't set conditions in the first place. The person has to start somewhere. Accumulations don't just arise "out of thin air". =================================================================== As for all those monks who gained awakened through listening to the Buddha. a) We read only about that special moment when they became Awakened. What happened for decades prior to that? Maybe they worked really hard at developing wisdom, calm, sila, etc, prior to meeting the Buddha which was for them a proverbial "last straw that broke camel's back". b) They met the Buddha! We don't have such luxury. Their exceptional story could be irrelevant to us for many reasons. Also, let us not forget: How many people heard the Buddha and DIDN'T become Awakened? How many people heard the Buddha and DIDN'T become Awakened? If we compare these two groups, I think that it will be apparent that we should not base one's patipada on rare, exceptional and "black swan" events. =================================================== I think that it is pointless to bring sutta evidence to those who will always twist the message in exact opposite of what the sutta actually says. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #131923 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:28 am Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3. philofillet Dear Group A very Useful Post from Nina about Abhidhamma in the suttanta. I highlight the following passage, but please reflect on the rest: > The Abhidhamma and the Suttanta teach us about the dhammas > that appear, they point to insight. Insight is the development of > direct understanding of the dhamma appearing now, be it seeing, > visible object, hearing, sound, or any other dhamma appearing through > one of the six doors. Everything that is real is dhamma. We hear the > sound of a car or of a bird and we immediately think about concepts > such as car or bird. Sound is real, it impinges on the earsense. It > has a characteristic that can be directly known when it appears. Car > or bird are only objects of thinking Phil The entire post: > The Abhidhamma describes what is occurring in our life now: seeing, > visible object, like or dislike of what is seen. This is also > described in the Suttas, there is actually Abhidhamma in all the > Suttas. The Abhidhamma and the Suttanta teach us about the dhammas > that appear, they point to insight. Insight is the development of > direct understanding of the dhamma appearing now, be it seeing, > visible object, hearing, sound, or any other dhamma appearing through > one of the six doors. Everything that is real is dhamma. We hear the > sound of a car or of a bird and we immediately think about concepts > such as car or bird. Sound is real, it impinges on the earsense. It > has a characteristic that can be directly known when it appears. Car > or bird are only objects of thinking, they are concepts. > When we listen to the Dhamma we learn about ultimate realities: > citta, consciousness, cetasika, mental factors accompanying citta, > and rpa, physical phenomena. They are conditioned dhammas, they > arise each because of their own conditions and then they fall away. > Nibbna is the paramattha dhamma that is unconditioned, it does not > arise and fall away. > We cannot direct the conditions for the phenomena that arise, but we > can develop more understanding of the fact that whatever arises is > conditioned. Knowing that there are conditions for akusala helps not > to keep on reproaching ourselves: I should not have akusala. There is > also conceit when we think:  'I should be better, I am too good to > have akusala. > We could not develop understanding without listening to the Dhamma, > because the Dhamma is the Buddha's teaching. Nobody else taught the > three characteristics of all conditioned dhammas: their nature of > impermanence, dukkha and anatt. When we have listened to the Dhamma > and we carefully consider what we heard, we can develop understanding > ourselves without being dependent on another person. > We should investigate the different dhammas that appear in daily > life, and this is the condition for beginning to be aware of their > characteristics. One of my friends in Bangkok remarked that there is > no other way to develop understanding, and that if we think that > there is, it is just lobha, attachment. > We read in the "Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fives, Ch XVI, 4, The > confounding of Saddhamma) that the Buddha said to the monks: > > Monks, these five things lead to the confounding, the disappearance > of Saddhamma. What five? > Herein, monks, carelessly the monks hear Dhamma; carelessly they > master it; carelessly they bear it in mind; carelessly they test the > good [the meaning] of the things borne in mind; knowing the good and > knowing the Dhamma, carelessly they go their ways [practise] in > Dhamma by Dhamma. > Verily, monks, these are the five things that lead to the > confounding, the disappearance of Saddhamma. > > We read that if the monks carefully listen to the Dhamma, consider it > and apply it, it leads to the stability of the Saddhamma (true > Dhamma), to its being unconfounded, to its non-disappearance. > > ***** > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #131924 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:52 am Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3. philofillet Dear Group I highlight another passage from this post: > We should investigate the different dhammas that appear in daily > life, and this is the condition for beginning to be aware of their > characteristics. One of my friends in Bangkok remarked that there is > no other way to develop understanding, and that if we think that > there is, it is just lobha, attachment. Technically speaking, isn't it lobha with ditthi, wrong view about having control over dhammas to develop understanding faster? (And let's be honest, we can also have a lot of lobha w/ditthi in moments of *trying* to develop understanding of realities in daily life. Very few openings in the dome of lobha!! (Is lobha the material of the dome and wrong view of self the cement that keeps it up and holds it together?) Anyways, back to the above question. Isn't lobha with ditthi what is at work when we want to speed up development of understanding rather than just lobha? So when A Sujin says "the shortcut is lobha" doesn't she really mean " the shortcut is lobha with ditthi?" Phil #131925 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:57 am Subject: Re: A Challenge - My Final comments... nichiconn mr T, > > I will read the replies to this thread today but I am afraid I won't be contributing anymore....it is I am afraid an exercise in futility (with the greatest of respect of course!). > ah! but we haven't seen a contribution we get yet. so, while we wait, maybe you will be interested in the theravadin version of the heart sutra? connie #131926 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:29 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, and All, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > Op 21 jul 2013, om 02:43 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > Thomas: No, according to the SN suttas, citta, cetasika and ruupa are 'not' the same as the five khandhas. Also, the term cetasika is not found in the SN suttas. The five khandhas are: ruupa-khandha, vedanaa-khandha, sa~n~naa-khandha, sa.mkhaaraa-khandha, and vi~n~n.na-khandha. > > The five khandhas are regarded as dhammas 'phenomena' (not 'paramattha'); they are arisen by condition; Nibbana mainly refers to the cessation of dukkha (not 'paramattha'), according to the SN suttas. > -------- > N: Ruupa-khandha are just ruupas, physical phenomena that do not know anything. Vi~n~naana-khandha, these are cittas, realities that experience something. It does not matter how we name it, but its characteristic can be understood when it appears. Seeing appears now, it is Vi~n~naana-khandha. > Then there are: vedanaa-khandha, sa~n~naa-khandha, sa.nkhaaraa-khandha. Vedanaa is feeling, it is not citta, it accompanies each citta. It is a cetasika but we should not cling to the name cetasika, it has a characteristic that can be experienced now. Sa~n~naa, remembrance is a cetasika that arises with each citta, it remembers or marks the object. There are not only the cetasikas feeling and remembrance, but many others: kusala, akusala or neither. These are included in sa.nkhaaraa-khandha. > When we do not mind names but develop understanding of characterisics that appear right now, we do not fall over terms and names. What matters above all is the development of understanding of what appears right now. > Paramattha means in the highest sense, thus, not conventional. A person, a thing, these are conventional notions. Citta, cetasika and ruupa can be experienced now, without having to think about them, they are paramattha dhammas. But you do not have to call them paramatthas. So long as you understand their characteristics as different from conventional notions. > ----------- > Nina: Paramattha means in the highest sense, thus, not conventional. ... Citta, cetasika and ruupa can be experienced now, ... they are paramattha dhammas. ... their characteristics as different from conventional notions. Thomas: According to the SN suttas, citta and ruupa are not being named and regarded as paramattha dhammas. They (citta and ruupa) are just dhammas 'phenomena' arisen by causal condition (pa.ticca-samuppanna.m) (not by 'own being'); they are having the nature of 'anica, dukkha, anatta', which can be experienced now. The term, cetasika, is simply not found in the SN suttas. Regards, Thomas #131927 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:47 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Hi Sukin, --- Sukinder wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > Sukin: ... why you object to the concept of "paramattha"? ... > > Thomas: First, the Buddha did not use the term for his teachings > (according to the SN suttas). Second, the concept of `paramattha' is being used in the sense of a metaphysical entity, which is far away from the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism. > Also, as I mentioned before, according to the SN suttas, there is no need to name paramattha dhammas or absolute realities, but to see and to know directly body and mind phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres)as they really are as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', and as 'the middle way'. -------- > Sukin: The development of Right Understanding ... What do you understand by the "middle way"? Thomas: My understanding of the 'middle way' is mainly based on this book, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (cf. pp. 60-66, 192-199). It seems to me that the notion of the middle way is closely connected with the teachings of not-self (anatta) and pa.ticcasamuppaada ('arising by causal condition')in Early Buddhism. Regards, Thomas #131928 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:02 am Subject: An example of greed and a lack of common sense with respect to suttas philofillet Dear Group I think the following is a very good example of how people can be ( and usually are if bot supported by Abhidhamma) misled by greed and a lack of common sense when reading suttas without understanding: RobertK: Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. Mr ?: In meditation we don't think about the next moment, Robert. [SN 36.7 Gelaa Sutta: ] "In regard to both body and the pleasant feeling he dwells contemplating impermanence, dwells contemplating evanescence, dwells contemplating detachment, dwells contemplating cessation, dwells contemplating relinquishment. And in him who thus dwells, the underlying tendency to lust in regard to body and pleasant feeling vanishes." Ph: The person in question obviously thinks this refers to him and his "meditation!" Extraordinary! People who hang out on the Internet and quote suttas about advanced degrees of understanding as if they were relevant to their own piss-poor understanding completely lack humility and common sense. Wake up sutta strutters! Come back down to earth and start where you are, not where you want want want to be, magically. Phil #131929 From: "colette_aube" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:29 am Subject: Re: What is fear? colette_aube Hi Phil and Ken H, I check in now and then, just to see what's goin' on, here. This post was very welcomed. <....> It seems, however, that we in the Buddhist community have the ability to recognize what good and what bad actually are (kusala and akusala, etc). Thank you for the re-assurances and pleasure of reading another person speak sanely for once. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Therefore, it is especially good to know that fear is just a conditioned dhamma. Just like all the other conditioned dhammas it is inherently anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is not suitable for anything except dispassion, disinterest and renunciation. > > Just a reality, performing its function in a way that was enlightened by the Buddha and taught in explicit terms in Abhidhamma and the rest of tipitika. What makes it possible for us to accept this while others are compelled to come up with thinkbombs based on personal interpretations of Mahayana yadayadas? More realities performing functions. > > Let's feel fortunate for our accumulations, though as you said above just as fear is just a c d that is anicca dukkha and anatta so are panna and other kusala factors associated with benefial accumulations. Just realities rising to performing functions and then fall away, never to appear again > > Phil > #131930 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:06 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? philofillet Hi Colette > I check in now and then, just to see what's goin' on, here. This post was very welcomed. > > <....> > It seems, however, that we in the Buddhist community have the ability to recognize what good and what bad actually are (kusala and akusala, etc). > > Thank you for the re-assurances and pleasure of reading another person speak sanely for once. Hmmm. In my opinion rather than the ability to recognize what is kusala and what is akusala the fact that they are just dhammas rising and falling away again, gone forever, is the most beneficial thing. If we get too interested in distinguishing kusala from akusala and wanting to have the former it just becomes all about being the virtuous kusala person. Isn't it much more reassuring to know that there is no self, just dhammas rising and falling away. The akusala ones, the kusala ones, nothing to get worked up about, we are released from worry the deeper we get into Abhidhamma, I think. Phil #131931 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:12 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. jagkrit2012 Dear Phil > P: I am very wary of the idea of kusala chanda . It seems unlikely to me that we can know the characteristic of chanda . If there is a reality that we think we know to be chanda, it is already lobha, I think. But sometimes I guess I go too far in always assuming lobha lobha lobha. JK: Yes, it is very close; characteristic of chanda and lobha. But the lord Buddha knew exactly the different. Until one can experience the characteristic of chanda, there should be no confusion with other dhammas. For some people who have a habit of generosity, they should have kusala chanda to give away their money to help people who are in need. At the moment of kusala citta of dana, there are kusala chanda arises with alobha cetasika. > P: Can't kusala chanda arise and perform its function to condition the consideration of realities or other wholesome behaviour without our knowing its characteristics? Does there have to be awareness of a beneficial reality in order for it to be beneficial? JK: In Abhidhamma, chanda has its performance of satisfaction (sometime referring as wish to do) and it is one of the 4 saha jatta adhipati paccaya (meaning cause to co-arising with the duty of leading other cetasikas). Therefore, kusala chanda cetasika can lead other kusala cetasikas to arise including sati cetasika which has its duty to aware the reality arising at the moment as an object. Only panna in sati-patthana can know the characteristic of reality both namas and rupas. For sati to aware the characteristic of nama, because citta arises one at a time, when sati is aware of kusala chanda cetasika, it isn't aware of the kusala chanda arising together with it in the same vara (process of one citta) but sati is aware of the characteristic of kusala chanda in the vara which just arised and falled away right before it. To the question of does there have to be awareness of a beneficial reality in order for it to be beneficial? I think it is always beneficial if one can know the truth by being aware of any reality akusala or kusala. Because all dhammas are anatta, good or bad dhamma arises according to condition without controlling. So one should make useful of any realities arising at the moment. This is why the sutta mentions in the way that "A moment shouldn't past without understanding." Anumodhana Jagkrit #131932 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:01 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. philofillet Hello Jagkrit Thank you for your post. I have bookmarked it,will read the difficult parts later. But for now this: > To the question of does there have to be awareness of a beneficial reality in order for it to be beneficial? I think it is always beneficial if one can know the truth by being aware of any reality akusala or kusala. Yes but what I am wondering about is do dhammas perform their functions whether we are aware of them or not? I think for example there could be moments Chanda performing a function to condition cittas that lead to tapping out a message on my iPhone, overcoming the trouble to write about Dhamma. I have no awareness of the characteristic of Chanda but could there be Chanda arising anyways. I guess of course there can be. And if there is, does it lead to development of Chanda, conditioning of future Chanda whether there is awareness of it or not? I heard Jon asking TA similar question on my behalf but I can't remember Ajahn's answr. > Because all dhammas are anatta, good or bad dhamma arises according to condition without controlling. So one should make useful of any realities arising at the moment. > This is why the sutta mentions in the way that "A moment shouldn't past without understanding."' I think there can often be thinking about realities based on situations without awareness of the realities. A lot of thinking, like my thinking about Chanda when tapping out a message, in the example I used above. But how much actual awareness of characteristics of realities. Not much I think. Of course the sutta passage you quote us a stirring ideal. It is good to have you here, Jagkrit. Please stick around. Phil #131933 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hi Htoo, > Sukin: > > So you are referring to samma samadhi as a separate practice which is > supposed to help panna of the Eightfold Path? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. But I would rather give you examples. Have you ever taste a > chicken curry? Taste. Could you tell me the taste? You would say "It > is salty. Or it is spicy. Or it is sweet. Or it is sour. Our it is > bitter." Actually there are different tastes. There what you recognize > most will appear to your mind and you would say 'some of them even > though there are many'. I am not lateralizing. > > When kusala dhamma arise as javana cittas there is a citta along with > 19 cetasikas and if the kusala is tihetuka there will be panna as > well. If kusala thing is karu.naa then there also is karuna cetasika. > There are dhamma like ekaggata, cetana, sanna, saddha, sati, > vitakka,viriya etc. Although there are many sometime one dhamma is > used as a head-dhamma. All go hand in hand. > > Without samaadhi there will not be panna. > Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise? > Sukin: > > Is not samma samadhi in fact ekaggata cetasika made "right" by virtue > of being conditioned by samma ditthi? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Theoretically right. Sammaa-samaadhi is not just simple ekaggataa. It > has to be built. > How? Through the practice of samatha leading to Jhana for instance? > Sukin: > Does not panna when developed, becomes indriya and bala > and this is what reflects the ease in arising regardless of whether > the preceding dhamma and object is kusala, akusala or avyakata? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > True. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Is panna indriya or bala only because samadhi is indriya and bala? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This is right. Balancing of indriya is required. > And does the balancing happen as a result of following separate practices for each of the indriyas? > Sukin: > You miss the point. > Hearing the Dhamma and appreciating it, leads to seeing value in > continued listening rather than to the idea of doing something / practice. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You seem hating 'the idea of doing something'. > And you don't seem to have any problem with it, so much so that you accept as valid, many different practices that are done in the name of "Buddhist" practice. > Sukin: > > What do you understand by "cira kala bhavana"? Is this a matter of 10, > 20, 30 or 80 years, or uncountable lifetimes? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Cira = long time, cira.m = time-takenly, prolongedly > Cirassa kaalo --> cirakaalo > Cirakaalassa bhaavanaa --> cirakaala bhaavanaa > > No need to count. But it is not short surely. > Not counting, but you were giving figures such as 7 years and 30 years. But can these be anywhere close to the correct figure? How long does it take for the Arahatta with the lowest parami to reach his goal? > Sukin: > If there is no Pariyatti understanding, wrong attainments will find > confirmation in the Tipitaka what it seeks. A very dangerous position > to be in. Begin again and again, which is none other than what appears > "now". Do you think someone who has attained will want to check with > the Tipitaka what he has experienced, or he will just keep developing > understanding of the reality NOW? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > What do you mean by wrong attainment? If it is wrong practice there is > nothing to attain. The attainers do not need chechking because > checking has already been done in first javana after attainment as > paccavekkha.naa. > I mean, what many people believe to be the result of meditation practice. Some not so great, some as being first jhana, second jhana, vipassanannana and even sotapatti or higher, but all in fact delusional. Earlier while making the point of dhamma meditator / students in Myanmar not overlooking need to study the Tipitaka, you had said that some of them after attainment, would check with the texts to make sure that what they attained was correct. > Sukin: > > Are you serious about such practices? Do you really believe that they > are valid? The Dhamma is One and has one taste. The Path is one. Why > would there be difference in practice instructions? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There are similarities and there also are dissimilarities. The arising > of milestones are the same but when someone passes quickly he did not > see all milestones. When passed slowly he saw all milestones. > > The Path is one. But cars are not the same. Engines are not the same. > Tyres are not the same. Car-bodies are not the same. One passed one's > own path. But there can be generalization. > > Example: Metta is adosa. But metta in a dog, in a man, in a monk, in a > sotapanna, in the Buddha will not be the same even though > characterwise it can be said that it is adosa or metta. > You are saying this to justify different forms of meditation practice, but this is not the right way to think about these things, is it? Metta is metta. Whatever the strength, it still has a particular characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, and is this not the very point of studying the Abhidhamma? Therefore in the same way, the Path is the Path, it is accompanied by five or six particular group of cetasikas when it is mundane, and eight cetasikas when it is supra-mundane. Each of these cetasikas have a particular characteristic and perform their particular functions. This kind of understanding is exactly what helps us to discriminate between right vs. wrong practice, rather than end up believing in one or the other form of conventional practices, or worse, that they are all equally valid....?! > Sukin: > > Have you and any of the teachers ever checked with the Tipitaka > regarding these practices? Are you interested only in the "result" and > not in the causes? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I am interested in almost everything. I do search the causes, I do > look at the results, I do check the presence of associations, I do > track the presence of complications. 'Cause and effect' only is like > head and tail only. > You mean that you check all these with reference to the present moment experience? > Sukin: > Practice is conditioned namas / sankhara dhammas or is it something else? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > 1. sappuurisa sa.mveso > 2. saddhamma savana.m > > Tipitaka needs at leats 7 years just for touch. But for practice not > evry detail is needed. > Patipatti is the result of accumulated pariyatti. Increased pariyatti understanding, is not detailed knowledge in terms of ideas attended to and remembered, but deeper understanding accompanied by increased confidence, with reference to the present moment reality. This is by way of "thinking", different from patipatti which is "direct experience" of characteristic of a nama or rupa. > > Associate with wiseman and being taught by wiseman are the first two > parts what you said. This is done before going into practice. > > 3. yoniso manasikaara > 4. dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa > > 3 & 4 require dhamma teachers. Need to be instructed otherwise will > miss nibbaana. > You mean after "hearing the Dhamma" and "associating with the wise", you look for a "wise teacher" out there to teach you something which otherwise cannot happen? After hearing the Buddha teach, some of his disciples had to look for teachers to learn meditation? So the Dhamma spoken by the Buddha alone was not enough for his disciples, and they needed something "more" from his enlightened savakas? > > "NO PRACTICE NO NIBBAANA". Neyya puggalaa have to do practice > otherwise will miss the greatest chance. > So this practice is not a dhamma, but a conventional activity, namely, meditation? But as students of the Abhidhamma we are to understand all that ever arises and falls away as conditioned dhammas, is it not? So do tell me, what particular dhammas are encouraged in the name of meditation practice? Also, if we are supposed to refer to the particular conventional practice rather than characteristic and function of particular dhammas, do we do this out of blind faith or what? If you say that we follow a particular meditation instruction with "understanding", please point out exactly what this understanding is about? > Sukin: > > But by this I do not mean "book knowledge", but of what > appears from moment to moment. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > When in real practice, 'moment to moment' matter is no more > theoretical but in real timeline. Things as they really are seen one > after another in clear background. What is not seen is 'bhava`nga-cittas'. > The reference to "moment to moment" is saying that panna develops only in relation to what appears "now" and at any given moment, there is only ever "now" to be known. I don't believe in the idea of being mindful all the time, except only when it is bhavanga cittas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Is this what you have in mind when you > suggest that those people in the Tipitaka who went in search of > teachers knew more Dhamma than I do? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :>) > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Entertaining and believing in such stories, how does this reflect > development of Right Understanding? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Entertainment is not my job. > So thinking / speculating about the probable number of people who became sotapannas is something that panna would do? > Right understanding does not arise without practice. Without > bhaavanaa, without satipatthana, without vipassana, without practice > there is no sotapanna, no sakadagam, no anagam, no arahats. > Right understanding begins with pariyatti level. Patipatti can begin to arise only after this pariyatti level has been accumulated over many lifetimes. If you refer to some conventional practice done by this or that person in a given lifetime, then you are not talking about that which is the result of accumulated pariyatti understanding and that which would lead to pativedha after yet more uncountable lifetimes, but something else. > > They did have theoretical knowledge and understanding. But there was > no pa.tivedha because there was no pa.tipatti. That is why they were > sent to teachers who would guide them to attain nibbaana. > You mean they attained pativedha with just 7 days, 7 years or 70 years of patipatti regardless of whether or not panna, samadhi, sati, saddha and viriya were accumulated as indriya and bala? > Sukin: > The kind of thinking that you express here is something people of > other religions also express. As Dhamma students we know what it in > fact takes to determine whether someone has good sila or not, but more > importantly, that it is Right View which is important and what really > determines whether someone has this or not. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Do you mean that the people I talked about had wrong view? Opposite. > Well, that would be the logical conclusion wouldn't it, given that you are representing their view and you keep expressing what I consider as wrong understanding with regard patipatti? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > So you do know that it is Right Understanding which is important and > that it is through questioning / discussion that one comes to know > whether this is present or not. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I do not understand what you mean. Could you please put it in another way? > I was responding to this part of your last message: quote: "But when I have to deal with that person I will assume him as a person. If I have a chance to talk together I might know how deeply he know dhamma and then I may feel confident that dhamma in him is dhamma." > Sukin: > > Well, I was talking about me and everyone else on this list who have > expressed disagreement with you regarding the concept of "practice". > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Actually I am interested in dhammas and the Dhamma not in people. > Sorry, but that is not the impression I have got in this particular discussion. You appear to express confidence in some respected teachers of Myanmar more than you do in the Dhamma. > Sukin: > So you were talking about someone else who has claimed to know > bhavanga cittas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Please look through this post again. There is a part that I had > written. Did I say as you said? > This is what you wrote in an earlier message: Quote: Htoo: "Pupils of Mahasi Sayadaw could experience bhava`ngacittas even though not directly." I have to send this off quickly as my computer is showing some problems, therefore I am not going to review what I wrote. Metta, Sukin #131934 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. jagkrit2012 Dear Nina > N: I can only follow a little part of the discussions in Bgk, because the times are so different. For me is best from 3-4 in the afternoon Bgk time. That is for me ten in the morning. Besides, the lectures are interrupted by Dutch advertisements, and I asked someone to help me eliminate them. JK: It is because the foundation uses free board-cast. Even in Thai web, There will be pop up advertisement all the time and every 10 - 20 minutes there will be short commercial intervention as well. The foundation tried to fix this by use paid board-casting by Khun Chalie donation around 3000 Baht per month. But the foundation just learn that this paid board-casting contract limits to some certain amount of viewers. The exceed views shall be charged around 30 Baht per view. It came later that in one board-casting the totle bill including extras was around 20000 Baht. The foundation then stop the paid board-casting and get back to use free board-casting for the moment. I think the foundation is in the possess of negotiating with the ustream to adjust proper contract to minimal the budget. Hopefully, we can get better live boardcast dhamma discussion in the future. How about English dhamma discussion in the afternoon of Saturday? Can you get clear receiving? Last time we got just sound no picture. But we could hear the discussion going on till the end. We also have friends from Vietnam participate during the discussion by sending questions to TA Sujin via emial. ====================== > I was lucky today, a special Dhamma day, and I heard T.A. Perhaps a wan phra? It is so good she reminds us often that it is sankhaarakkhandha doing its work. She talked about samnag, meditation center and whether that was in the Buddha's time. A monk was very interested and expressed his anumodana. JK: That was the Aasalha day, the day the lord Buddha contributed Dhammacakka pavattana sutta at Sarnath to 5 followers (pancavaggiya). And one of the followers, Kotanya got enlightenment as sodapanati. This day was the first day that there was three jems; Buddha, dhamma and ariya sangga. The foundation organized special dhamma discussion all day on this special day besides weekend. And as you mentioned, one of the topic was samnag or practice institution. There was none practice institution or meditation centre in the Buddha time. There was no set of instruction of sitting or walking meditation for any group of practitioners as well. But there was a traditional of listening to dhamma. Every evening, people went to listen to dhamma in the Buddha monastery. The point was to understand dhamma the lord Buddha spent 45 years preaching to followers. Therefore, it is very different in this present day. We have a lot of practice institutions in Thailand. People go there to do something they don't really know or understand. They have some idea of what meditation is but not right understanding. They go to practice by following the master tell them to do with hope that they will get something beneficial from this. But they can not be aware of lobha, dhiti and mana as always arising and accumulating every moment of practice. Practicing with idea of doing something is dhiti. Hoping to be calm is lobha and present feeling during that practice is lobha with somanasa vetana. And checking and comparing result of practice among practitioners is mana. Unless one really understands lobha, dhiti and mana, there never be samma samathi or samatha bhavana in the Buddha teaching. The monk whom you saw is Cambodian monk who studys a lot of dhamma and understand Thai language very well. He is wise to understand and anumodhana what has been discussed. Anumodhana Jagkrit #131935 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:27 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > In Poland Ajahn talked a lot about the three gocaras (also aarakkha and upanibhanda): ... > I listened to the first of the recommended sections, will listen more. A bit confused because at first gocara sounded like the object for which there are accumulations to rise and then it sounded like the suitable object for us. .... S: When there is understanding, even intellectual right understanding, the object of that understanding is suitable at that moment. So if there is wise consideration about visible object, visible object is the suitable object at that moment. It doesn't mean there should be attending to a particular, suitable object with the aim of being aware of it. Always back to anatta and conditions. ... >So what is suitable is that for which there are accumulations? ... S: Yes, that object for which there are accumulations now to understand - naturally! Metta Sarah ==== #131936 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:37 pm Subject: Re: TA on gocara sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > And the third gocara, which is satipatthana, so there is a deeper degree of panna than when there is just listening to a teaching by which there is gocara as protection. Of course satipatthana is the best protection, so what is the difference between second and third gocara. (Those questions/comments might be gibberish) ... S: The second gocara, aarakkha gocara means protection. Any kind of kusala is a protection from akusala. All kinds of kusala which lead to satipatthana, upanibandha gocara through understanding the value of kusala and the harm of akusala and the intellectual right understanding of conditioned realities as anatta. Metta Sarah ==== #131937 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:46 pm Subject: Re: TA on gocara sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Alberto, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > Ph: Is sound that is voice of Dhamma friend vipaka of kusala kamma? That is probably true, but just thinking. > > A: I think so too,... .... S: In the case of the friend, cittas and other conditions condition those sounds. For the one listening, the hearing is vipaka, the result of kamma. It'll depend on the past kamma what sounds are heard and whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka at any particular moment. We cannot tell just from thinking about the situation. Metta Sarah ===== #131938 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:03 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (Joe/Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Tony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > >>J: It seems to be your position that the there is no possibility that anything could exist outside of experience (or, perhaps, no possibility that such existence could be known). > >> Would you mind explaining the basis for this assumption/position. I think this could be a useful line of discussion. > > TH: I struggle to explain this in ways other than I already have numerous times in this forum. ... S: I don't remember reading a single explanation from you about why there is no possibility of any dhamma arising outside experience. ... >T: So two questions for you and Sarah :-) > How can something exist without being an object of conciousness/expereince? ... S: Countless rupas and namas are arising and falling away all the time which are never the object of experience. For example, countless rupas of the body arise and fall away all the time. Countless rupas in the forest, on the moon, in other bodies, arise and fall away all the time. ... > > If it is not an object of conciousness or being experienced how on earth does it exist and how would you know??? ... S: If a reality is not an object of consciousness it cannot be known, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Buddha's omniscient wisdom could attend to any reality at all, however. Thus he was able to teach about all kinds of dhammas, even those not experienced or known by our very limited understanding. ... > > All anyone has to do who is a part of this debate with me is explain that. .... S: Look forward to hearing your response and explanation of the first point. Metta Sarah ===== #131939 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sukin (et al) sukinderpal Hi Tony, > Suk: You mean emptiness is empty for emptiness to empty with emptiness > emptiness. > > Whoa, you really are confused...! > > My advice would be to leave this alone. > Oh, so you don't agree with this? My remark was in response to your belief in the concept of "emptiness" and the idea that concepts are conditioned just as paramattha dhammas, and both equally unreal. So when at the end of your last reply you said: "I am happy for me to continue with my experience." I thought to paraphrase this with that above remark. But allow me to say more. What I wanted to get across is that in spite of your belief in emptiness and the unreality of paramattha dhammas, you keep using as reference points, characteristics and functions of these same dhammas when making sense of your experience. "I am happy for me to continue with my experience." The "I" in the above can be the expression of conceit or of view, or it can be the result of thinking rooted in attachment or in kindness. "Happy" could be mental pleasant feeling conditioned by attachment or non-attachment. "Continue" is an acknowledgement that particular kinds of cittas will keep arising given the conditions. And "my experience", is saying that a view has arisen and would continue to arise and be accumulated. Ken H refers to conventional reality as being shadows of ultimate realities, such that for example, a clock keeps ticking even if there is no one in the room to see it. I sometimes refer to "common sense experience" as reflecting the truth of what is out there. For example, why is it that on seeing what is subsequently conceived of as "fire", we are right to believe that if we put our hand into it, the hand will get burnt. I distinguish such knowledge from what sometimes comes after, namely when one view or the other expresses itself. Of course wrong view arises at the level of sense experience too and this is what conditions subsequent proliferation of thought. But there is also the influence of beliefs / philosophy formed by repeated thinking over those beliefs, for example the ideas expressed by Nagarjuna entertained by those who accept those ideas. "Self view" is the rule, until we hear and begin to understand the Buddha's teachings. Self view and any wrong view sees as permanent what is impermanent, as satisfying what is unsatisfactory, as self what is non-self, as pure what is foul, and also as wholesome what is unwholesome and vice versa. The three general marks of existence in the case of conditioned phenomena are intimately related. Paramattha dhammas are non-self, and they are also impermanent and unsatisfactory. Concepts on the other hand, do not exhibit such characteristics. One reason for this is because the one also has particular characteristics, function and manifestation such that every instance of "seeing" for example, will be acknowledged as just that, and not mistaken for something else. On the other hand a concept such as "flower" requires agreed upon convention to appear consistent and without it there will be confusion. An ant would not think about the flower as we humans do, and to attempt to find agreement between these two with regard to the particular experience is not only pointless, but in fact foolish. But the seeing or thinking of the ant is in fact no different from that of a human in terms of characteristic, functions and manifestation. When some of us therefore state that dhammas are "real" and "existing" and concepts are not, this is based on the understanding as the above. Therefore when you and Nagarjuna want to convince us otherwise, and instead want to promote the concept of "Emptiness", I see this as a case of being influenced by philosophy at the expense of the possibility of understanding the Four Noble Truths / the Buddha's teachings. So from where I stand, it is Nagarjuna who is confused. He was an armchair philosopher driven not only by wrong understanding of the one concept taught by the Buddha, namely Sunnatta or Anatta, but proliferated this to the extent of becoming a totally different teaching and ending up leading other blind men away from the true Dhamma. I hope that you will respond to tell me where I am wrong. Metta, Sukin #131940 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:12 pm Subject: Re: The second question sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > az: I agree, no rules, and I would suggest that thinking 'covers up' a lot of realities that appear at the sense doors. > > Ph: That makes sense. > > However, I remember being confused about this cuz I think Ajahn said something like seeing covers things up rather than thinking covers things up. It was a confusing point that Sarah or someone asked on my behalf years ago. But it was something counter-intuitive about the "covering up" > > I have a feeling Sarah will remember what I am referring to. ... S: We would have been talking about how it seems that seeing lasts and that the world is light all the time. In other words, the sense doors cover up the mind door. In fact seeing sees visible object just for an instant and only at that instant does light appear. When the mind-door is clear, when realities are directly understood, this becomes known and then the mind-door covers up the sense doors. One brief moment of seeing, followed by a few sense-door cittas and then many mind-door processes, lots of thinking, no light appearing at all. Metta Sarah ==== #131941 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:50 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? philofillet Hi again Colette > Isn't it much more reassuring to know that there is no self, just dhammas rising and falling away. The akusala ones, the kusala ones, nothing to get worked up about, we are released from worry the deeper we get into Abhidhamma, I think. > Maybe I went too far here. Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala kamma patha, for example, must be some kind of wrong view. Bit there has to be equanimous understanding that akusala has been arising for a hell of a long time and will continue to do so. If we fight against that, it will be a futile exercise of deluded cittas. But we can feel confident that there is more and more understanding, the most valuable kind of kusala. Thanks for your stimulating comment! Phil #131942 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:19 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. jagkrit2012 Dear Phil > P: Yes but what I am wondering about is do dhammas perform their functions whether we are aware of them or not? I think for example there could be moments Chanda performing a function to condition cittas that lead to tapping out a message on my iPhone, overcoming the trouble to write about Dhamma. I have no awareness of the characteristic of Chanda but could there be Chanda arising anyways. I guess of course there can be. JK: I agree with you. Dhammas always perform their duties according to conditions. Even though you have difficulty to tap out message on iphone, it is chanda to discussing dhamma arising with other kusala cittas causing body action to type dhamma messages. To the question that can we are aware of chanda, I think it is up to the degree of chanda. If the topic of dhamma is very interesting, there can be high degree of chanda to participate. If not, it can be only viriya or effort to participate. ============= And if there is, does it lead to development of Chanda, conditioning of future Chanda whether there is awareness of it or not? I heard Jon asking TA similar question on my behalf but I can't remember Ajahn's answer. JK: It is whether chanda cetasika is accumulated when it arises and falls away. I think chanda is the same as other cetasikas which are always accumulated within citta as latent tendency. That why people are so different due to their habits. Some are so keen to help others even something trivial. Some are so kind even to intolerable person. In the opposite, some are so fussy when choosing something. Some are so easily irritated even small matter. There should be different accumulation of chanda of different kusala and akusala cittas. ========= > P: I think there can often be thinking about realities based on situations without awareness of the realities. A lot of thinking, like my thinking about Chanda when tapping out a message, in the example I used above. But how much actual awareness of characteristics of realities. Not much I think. JK: Yes, but It is good to know that we are overwhelmed by thinking almost every moment. But you know, no one can stop thinking. It is definitely impossible to choose not to think and be aware of reality instead. However, when we listen to dhamma and understand the different between thinking and the story as an object of thinking, this sheds some light of understanding more what reality is. It is a good start to identify the different between thinking of reality and awareness of reality itself. And more and more understanding and contemplating dhamma will very little by little condition the ability for sati to activate more awareness to the realities appearing at each moment with less thinking. No rash. Only patient can keep us on and in the right path. Thank you and anumodhana for dhamma discussion Jagkrit #131943 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:09 pm Subject: Re: Full moon day of Asalh. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, jadhao@... wrote: > > Today is full moon day of Aasalh (Ashadh in Sanskrit). I think it was on this day the Buddha gave his first sermon Dhammacakka pavattana sutta at Sarnath (isipattana migadava) to the pancavaggiya bhikkhus. Let us observe this day by keeping 8 precepts, meditation charity etc. > > Rajendra Jadhao ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rajendra and all, Isipattana migada vana. 'Isi' means 'ascetics'. Patati = to fall, to land. Patana = landing(like heli or plane). Isipatana = where ascetics land. Vana means 'forest'. Migada means 'deers'. Dhammacakka or 'wheels of dhamma'. One wheel is the wheel of NEP. NEP are infallible view, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration. The second wheel is the wheel of SACCA. Lokiya cakka is rolling as samudaya dukkha samadaya dukkha samudaya dukkha. Lokuttara cakka will be rolling as magga nirodha magga nirodha magga nirodha. The third wheel is the wheel of sacca-kicca-kata sacca-kicca-kata sacca-kicca-kata sacca-kicca-kata. The Buddha's disciples are still rolling the wheel. This will stop when there is no existance of Buddha's dhamma on this earth in this world. But as long as there are people who abide what the Buddha taught the wheel will still be rolling. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131944 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:08 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts htoonaing... Dear Rob E, Jon, and all, Welldone! Rob E. Bravo! Amazing discussion! Now is more than 2500 years after the Buddha parinibbaana (total cessation). Now is the age when those who have realised nibbaana and want nibbaana have to do 'so call Buddhists' meditation'. Satipatthaana can theoretically happen anywhere. But for rightness there are four things for panna. 1. saatthaka sampaja~n~na 2. sappaaya sampa~n~na 3. gocara sampaja~n~na 4. asammoha sampaja~n~na Doing 'developing understanding' is beneficial. But not always appropriate at all places. Even if appropriate the objects have to be always right. Even though the objects are right there has to be free from ignorance or moha (avijjaa). Moha is almost always there in between series of successions of consciousness. To cut off these moha one has to do sitting meditation intensively while other still postures are also possible. Below I put again the discussion between Rob E and Jon. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Hi Jon. Certain things can be talked about theoretically, but in practice may seem to be almost nonsensical. The proposition that someone might experience jhana while eating bacon and eggs is ludicrous. The monks who experienced jhana and used it as basis for enlightenment spent hours and hours and hours sitting with "meditative" intention to develop jhana, whatever you'd like to call it. They practiced at it as hard as Itzhak Perlman practiced the violin. This notion that jhana "just arises" due to past accumulations really defies any record of how it actually takes place, or took place. The basis for concentration and the jhana states were cooked in the cauldron of almost full-time meditation practice, and was then carried forward the rest of the 24 hours intentionally when monks would go begging or otherwise do activities. There are admonitions to this effect in suttas [no don't have a sutta # handy, I'm sorry to say.] Although I would agree with you that there are suttas that indicate that there were monks or lay people who reached enlightenment after hearing the Buddha preach the Dhamma [and the skill in his knowing exactly what to say that you mentioned recently is not incidental to this] the great bulk of his followers, if not all of them, already had extensive jhana practice. A number of suttas, including the anapanasati, indicate great numbers of monks who had been practicing jhana and satipatthana with breath as object, so this was not an occasional or incidental way of practicing to reach enlightenment, it was the norm. I would also agree that even the ability to reach jhana through practice would involve past life accumulations and it is also equally possible that those who reach enlightenment through hearing the Buddha preach may very well have developed accumulations of jhana in past lives as well, so that they had the necessary requirements to go over the threshold, so to speak. In any case, the current tradition around the world of Buddhists, both sutta and Abhidhamma followers in Theravadin traditions of all sorts, all meditate as a major component of their practice of Theravada, not because they accidentally decided it might be fun somewhere along the line, or because they decided to adopt a Hindu or Jain practice in Burma or Vietnam, where there never was a Hindu culture at all, but because it was passed down from the time of the Buddha to the present day by the Buddha and his disciples from generation to generation. Meditation as represented by sitting in order to develop samatha and sati is in fact one of the most "orthodox" components of all Buddhist traditions. Buddha himself was a jhana master, and it was not incidental to his teaching - he was enlightened while practicing jhana at the base of the Bodhi tree, and he entered his parinibbana from the 4th jhana after running the gamut of jhanas up and down the scale. Do you think this was a coincidence, or that the Buddha just wanted to show off his knowledge of jhanas before retiring from this reality? ----------------------------------------------------------------------> J: Are you saying that "mindfulness meditation" is simply a synonym for the Pali term "satipatthana", or perhaps for the contents of the Satipatthana Sutta? Or is it a part only of that/those. If the latter (i.e., part only), why focus on a part rather than the whole? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: I don't understand this kind of question. The satipatthana sutta, like the anapanasati, starts out with a monk or other practitioner who is practicing mindfulness of breathing. Within the sitting meditation practice of mindfulness of breathing - anapanasati - he then goes through all the other arenas in which mindfulness must be applied. It's all of one cloth, and all in the context of sitting meditation, unless one wants to artificially dissect it and skew it to make it seem like it is something else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: But at least we all know what is meant by a "horse" :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Well in almost any conversation any given day, everyone knows what meditation means too. It's only around here that it seems like some kind of weird tropical plant that just can't be defined no matter how hard one tries. I think it's a fairly artificial problem. Meditation is an attempt to sit or stand still and focus on an object that causes one to enter a more refined or spiritual state in one way or another. In Taoism there is Taoist standing meditation. Everyone knows what it means. One stands, relaxes the eyes, focuses on the breath and breathes naturally with awareness to relax the body and mind and develop concentration. In Buddhist meditation there are specific ways of focusing and breathing and practicing mindfulness, which is beyond other traditions' ways of going into trance or merely relaxing or focusing, but they are still defineable, understandable and not at all weird or unclear. The Buddha describes it with no problem in the anapanasati and satipatthana suttas. They're not all that hard to follow. It's only when we start arguing about what the meaning of "there is the case where" means - whether that is an observation or instruction - that the definition gets all thready, because we're making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition is correct, even though it goes against the plain meaning of the text. If the Buddha is talking about following breathing to develop samatha and sati over and over again, it means that it is a valid and important topic in the practice he is teaching, period. It's not necessary to argue over the meaning of "is" or "the" or whether a root of a tree is a real root or not or whether it is metaphor for equanimity, not a real tree at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J: I've yet to be given a comprehensive and meaningful definition of 'meditation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Well if the above doesn't satisfy, try the anapanasati sutta. What the Buddha says to do in that sutta - that's meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > =============== > > > > J: The Buddha taught about the attainments of mindfulness and jhana, but he never called them 'meditative' attainments, and nor did he ever speak of a 'sitting' practice. These are latter day glosses on the teaching. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Doesn't matter. False issue. He always describes someone sitting, focusing on breath, putting mindfulness to the fore and then focusing on the breath some more, then if it is satipatthana, paying attention to the arising of objects of experience in the various areas to which mindfulness can be applied. It's not a mystery. One need only read the instruction manual. "Sit. Attend to breath. Relax the body and mind. Cultivate further relaxation and/or awareness of arising objects of experience. The end." I hope that helps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: I think you'll find on a closer reading of the texts that only certain monks led a life devoted to the development of samatha, and that for these monks "sitting cross-legged" constituted only a part of the day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Fine, it's part of the day then. No matter how you slice or skew it, sitting meditation was a continual, major and substantial part of the practice of every monk, and the Buddha himself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: There are perfectly adequate terms in the suttas already: samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development. 'Development' does not necessarily connote a 'practice' in the sense that you use it here ('jhaana practice' and 'satipatthana practice'), so I would not see those terms as being equivalents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Well, if one is not intent on separating "sitting practice" from "satipatthana development" and "insight development," one will naturally see that they occur together in many, many suttas, and that when insight arises in another setting, it is a specific event based on accumulations and usually the presence of the Buddha himself, otherwise everyone is "cultivating" through "sitting" and "focusing on breath or foundations of mindfulness." It is a sitting practice, and described as such by the Buddha himself. That is the main way that those qualities are developed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: But what is the advantage/benefit of talking about "Buddhist meditation" instead of about samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: The advantage is to acknowledge what most Buddhists around the world do: that sitting meditation is a necessity for developing either jhana or insight of any non-intellectual degree, for almost everyone on the planet. It is the Buddhist mechanism by which they are cultivated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: In the case of the Satipatthana Sutta, the references you mention are 1 part only of the 1st of 4 foundations of mindfulness. And they are spoken for the benefit of those persons in whom samatha and vipassana are already highly developed (this is apparent from the opening words beginning "There is the case where "). So there is a lot more in the Sutta than the part you mention. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: In my view, they are all based on and take place within the context of the first part. The breathing practice is not just described for part 1, it is the mode that one is in for all four parts. "There is the case where" sets up the condition for the whole sutta, not just the few paragraphs immediately afterwards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: I didn't put that very well. Yes, we're discussing meditation. But there are times when I've tried to steer the conversation to the development of the path in general, i.e., not just that part of the path that involves what you call meditation. So far to no avail :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Well we can switch subjects any time, but I thought we should try to resolve this issue once and for all before moving on to the many other topics available. So if you agree with me that meditation is essential to the development of the enlightenment factors, I'm ready to go forward! :-))) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #131945 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:26 am Subject: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Apology for repeating the post again. I did it because I think it will be beneficial for all. I changed the heading to a new one as "Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha". May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Rob E, Jon, and all, Welldone! Rob E. Bravo! Amazing discussion! Now is more than 2500 years after the Buddha parinibbaana (total cessation). Now is the age when those who have realised nibbaana and want nibbaana have to do 'so call Buddhists' meditation'. Satipatthaana can theoretically happen anywhere. But for rightness there are four things for panna. 1. saatthaka sampaja~n~na 2. sappaaya sampa~n~na 3. gocara sampaja~n~na 4. asammoha sampaja~n~na Doing 'developing understanding' is beneficial. But not always appropriate at all places. Even if appropriate the objects have to be always right. Even though the objects are right there has to be free from ignorance or moha (avijjaa). Moha is almost always there in between series of successions of consciousness. To cut off these moha one has to do sitting meditation intensively while other still postures are also possible. Below I put again the discussion between Rob E and Jon. With Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------------------------------------------------------------Rob E: Hi Jon. Certain things can be talked about theoretically, but in practice may seem to be almost nonsensical. The proposition that someone might experience jhana while eating bacon and eggs is ludicrous. The monks who experienced jhana and used it as basis for enlightenment spent hours and hours and hours sitting with "meditative" intention to develop jhana, whatever you'd like to call it. They practiced at it as hard as Itzhak Perlman practiced the violin. This notion that jhana "just arises" due to past accumulations really defies any record of how it actually takes place, or took place. The basis for concentration and the jhana states were cooked in the cauldron of almost full-time meditation practice, and was then carried forward the rest of the 24 hours intentionally when monks would go begging or otherwise do activities. There are admonitions to this effect in suttas [no don't have a sutta # handy, I'm sorry to say.] Although I would agree with you that there are suttas that indicate that there were monks or lay people who reached enlightenment after hearing the Buddha preach the Dhamma [and the skill in his knowing exactly what to say that you mentioned recently is not incidental to this] the great bulk of his followers, if not all of them, already had extensive jhana practice. A number of suttas, including the anapanasati, indicate great numbers of monks who had been practicing jhana and satipatthana with breath as object, so this was not an occasional or incidental way of practicing to reach enlightenment, it was the norm. I would also agree that even the ability to reach jhana through practice would involve past life accumulations and it is also equally possible that those who reach enlightenment through hearing the Buddha preach may very well have developed accumulations of jhana in past lives as well, so that they had the necessary requirements to go over the threshold, so to speak. In any case, the current tradition around the world of Buddhists, both sutta and Abhidhamma followers in Theravadin traditions of all sorts, all meditate as a major component of their practice of Theravada, not because they accidentally decided it might be fun somewhere along the line, or because they decided to adopt a Hindu or Jain practice in Burma or Vietnam, where there never was a Hindu culture at all, but because it was passed down from the time of the Buddha to the present day by the Buddha and his disciples from generation to generation. Meditation as represented by sitting in order to develop samatha and sati is in fact one of the most "orthodox" components of all Buddhist traditions. Buddha himself was a jhana master, and it was not incidental to his teaching - he was enlightened while practicing jhana at the base of the Bodhi tree, and he entered his parinibbana from the 4th jhana after running the gamut of jhanas up and down the scale. Do you think this was a coincidence, or that the Buddha just wanted to show off his knowledge of jhanas before retiring from this reality? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J: Are you saying that "mindfulness meditation" is simply a synonym for the Pali term "satipatthana", or perhaps for the contents of the Satipatthana Sutta? Or is it a part only of that/those. If the latter (i.e., part only), why focus on a part rather than the whole? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: I don't understand this kind of question. The satipatthana sutta, like the anapanasati, starts out with a monk or other practitioner who is practicing mindfulness of breathing. Within the sitting meditation practice of mindfulness of breathing - anapanasati - he then goes through all the other arenas in which mindfulness must be applied. It's all of one cloth, and all in the context of sitting meditation, unless one wants to artificially dissect it and skew it to make it seem like it is something else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J: But at least we all know what is meant by a "horse" :-)) ----------------------------------------------------------------------Rob E: Well in almost any conversation any given day, everyone knows what meditation means too. It's only around here that it seems like some kind of weird tropical plant that just can't be defined no matter how hard one tries. I think it's a fairly artificial problem. Meditation is an attempt to sit or stand still and focus on an object that causes one to enter a more refined or spiritual state in one way or another. In Taoism there is Taoist standing meditation. Everyone knows what it means. One stands, relaxes the eyes, focuses on the breath and breathes naturally with awareness to relax the body and mind and develop concentration. In Buddhist meditation there are specific ways of focusing and breathing and practicing mindfulness, which is beyond other traditions' ways of going into trance or merely relaxing or focusing, but they are still defineable, understandable and not at all weird or unclear. The Buddha describes it with no problem in the anapanasati and satipatthana suttas. They're not all that hard to follow. It's only when we start arguing about what the meaning of "there is the case where" means - whether that is an observation or instruction - that the definition gets all thready, because we're making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition is correct, even though it goes against the plain meaning of the text. If the Buddha is talking about following breathing to develop samatha and sati over and over again, it means that it is a valid and important topic in the practice he is teaching, period. It's not necessary to argue over the meaning of "is" or "the" or whether a root of a tree is a real root or not or whether it is metaphor for equanimity, not a real tree at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J: I've yet to be given a comprehensive and meaningful definition of 'meditation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Well if the above doesn't satisfy, try the anapanasati sutta. What the Buddha says to do in that sutta - that's meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > =============== > > > > J: The Buddha taught about the attainments of mindfulness and jhana, but he never called them 'meditative' attainments, and nor did he ever speak of a 'sitting' practice. These are latter day glosses on the teaching. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Doesn't matter. False issue. He always describes someone sitting, focusing on breath, putting mindfulness to the fore and then focusing on the breath some more, then if it is satipatthana, paying attention to the arising of objects of experience in the various areas to which mindfulness can be applied. It's not a mystery. One need only read the instruction manual. "Sit. Attend to breath. Relax the body and mind. Cultivate further relaxation and/or awareness of arising objects of experience. The end." I hope that helps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: I think you'll find on a closer reading of the texts that only certain monks led a life devoted to the development of samatha, and that for these monks "sitting cross-legged" constituted only a part of the day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Fine, it's part of the day then. No matter how you slice or skew it, sitting meditation was a continual, major and substantial part of the practice of every monk, and the Buddha himself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: There are perfectly adequate terms in the suttas already: samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development. 'Development' does not necessarily connote a 'practice' in the sense that you use it here ('jhaana practice' and 'satipatthana practice'), so I would not see those terms as being equivalents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Well, if one is not intent on separating "sitting practice" from "satipatthana development" and "insight development," one will naturally see that they occur together in many, many suttas, and that when insight arises in another setting, it is a specific event based on accumulations and usually the presence of the Buddha himself, otherwise everyone is "cultivating" through "sitting" and "focusing on breath or foundations of mindfulness." It is a sitting practice, and described as such by the Buddha himself. That is the main way that those qualities are developed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: But what is the advantage/benefit of talking about "Buddhist meditation" instead of about samatha/tranquility development and vipassana/insight development? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: The advantage is to acknowledge what most Buddhists around the world do: that sitting meditation is a necessity for developing either jhana or insight of any non-intellectual degree, for almost everyone on the planet. It is the Buddhist mechanism by which they are cultivated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: In the case of the Satipatthana Sutta, the references you mention are 1 part only of the 1st of 4 foundations of mindfulness. And they are spoken for the benefit of those persons in whom samatha and vipassana are already highly developed (this is apparent from the opening words beginning "There is the case where "). So there is a lot more in the Sutta than the part you mention. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: In my view, they are all based on and take place within the context of the first part. The breathing practice is not just described for part 1, it is the mode that one is in for all four parts. "There is the case where" sets up the condition for the whole sutta, not just the few paragraphs immediately afterwards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > J: I didn't put that very well. Yes, we're discussing meditation. But there are times when I've tried to steer the conversation to the development of the path in general, i.e., not just that part of the path that involves what you call meditation. So far to no avail :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob E: Well we can switch subjects any time, but I thought we should try to resolve this issue once and for all before moving on to the many other topics available. So if you agree with me that meditation is essential to the development of the enlightenment factors, I'm ready to go forward! :-))) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = -------------------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing #131946 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:37 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: dsg, 99.999% are not in a situation to be concerned with jhaana and any 'fourth estate', to be sure... plenty of time after the first truly 8-fold noble moment to worry about Nanda's nymphs. Sotapanna wanted, jhaana not required... inquire within. connie > 99.999% are not in that situation. Just look at population of insects vs humans. > > I wonder about difficulty of becoming a sotapanna ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, For those who are triple-rooted when they were born (tihetuka pa.tisandhii) it is not that difficult. Tests for whether tihetuka or dvihetuka is also simple. That is to try jhaana. Once one can enter the first jhaana he is sure a person born with alobha, adosa, and amoha (tihetuka). He can attain sotapanna-ship. Even jhaana may or may not need to test. The arising of counter-image or pa.tibhaaga nimitta is just enough to test. Those who were born with just alobha and adosa (dvihetuka-personnel) cannot achieve pa.tibhaaga nimitta. Fully conscious calm without lobha, dosa, and moha can be achieved if rightly trained. After attainment of the first jhaana that person may later lose his jhaana if he does not maintain it through vasiibhavo (practice repeatedly). Even this happen he can still attain sotapanna-ship with dry insight or "sukka-vipassanaa" that is pure vipassana without full jhaana. With respect, Friend in Dhamma, Htoo Naing #131947 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:48 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts htoonaing... Alex: Hello RobertE, Jon, all, Few summaries and my comments: Jhana (and anything else) arises due to conditions. But, it will never arise if one doesn't set conditions in the first place. The person has to start somewhere. Accumulations don't just arise "out of thin air". =================================================================== As for all those monks who gained awakened through listening to the Buddha. a) We read only about that special moment when they became Awakened. What happened for decades prior to that? Maybe they worked really hard at developing wisdom, calm, sila, etc, prior to meeting the Buddha which was for them a proverbial "last straw that broke camel's back". b) They met the Buddha! We don't have such luxury. Their exceptional story could be irrelevant to us for many reasons. Also, let us not forget: How many people heard the Buddha and DIDN'T become Awakened? How many people heard the Buddha and DIDN'T become Awakened? If we compare these two groups, I think that it will be apparent that we should not base one's patipada on rare, exceptional and "black swan" events. =================================================== I think that it is pointless to bring sutta evidence to those who will always twist the message in exact opposite of what the sutta actually says. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Alex, Thanks for your post. You discussed well. Those who awakened after having heard the Buddha's teaching in the presence of the Buddha also have to pass through the same path. The path is passed by the Buddha Himself first. This is unique path and all Sammaa-sambuddhas, all paccekabuddhas, all saavakas have to pass though this unique path. They awakened because there were conditions for arising of path-consciousness for them. They did have accumulations. But without satipa.t.thaana no one can attain enlightenment. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131948 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:11 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha philofillet Hello Htoo I am curious to know if you actually have a meditation practice. Rob E and Alex, the other advocates of meditation here have told us that they don't. You spend a lot of time on the Internet so I guess you don't either. I think someone who was really devoted to that kind of practice wouldn't spend as much time on the Internet as you do. Am I right? Is meditation something you like to advocate to others even though you don't have a "practice" yourself? Phil > #131949 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:13 am Subject: Re: The second question philofillet Dear Sarah Thank you for this and the other responses. I have a file for them. Phil #131950 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:59 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > Hello Htoo > > I am curious to know if you actually have a meditation practice. Rob E and Alex, the other advocates of meditation here have told us that they don't. You spend a lot of time on the Internet so I guess you don't either. I think someone who was really devoted to that kind of practice wouldn't spend as much time on the Internet as you do. > > Am I right? Is meditation something you like to advocate to others even though you don't have a "practice" yourself? > > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, I have to admit that I do both concentration meditation and insight meditation. Insight meditation-wise I reached somewhere not far from the starting point. I do know my speed of typing. I do not waste my precious time. I have to cure my patients. I have to teach medical students of undergraduates and postgraduates. I have to train my junior colleagues who are trying to attend postgraduate courses. I have to conduct examinations on candidates sitting for clinical part of their examinations. I have to attend examination boards. I have to attend monthly meetings. I have to attend annual meeting. I have to attend workshops on various clinical subjects. I have to attend protocol boards for postgraduate candidates. I have to pay attention to my Mom who has very complicated diseases. I have to patron my son who is attending medical university. And there are so many other jobs beyond these. As for reading and studying I have to read medical texts, journals and updates. I also read books on basic medical sciences like anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pathology, microbiology,and sometimes forensic medicine. As I am studying tipitaka I need to study Paa.li as it is media for tipitaka and dhamma. I read various Paa.li grammar books. I study Paa.li dictionary. I also learn poet including Paa.li gaathaa. I read almost all books if they are about satipatthana or vipassana or meditation in Theravada. I read histories of late Venerable monks. I also read on Buddha-related texts. I discuss with friends who are good at dhamma. I have friends who passed abhidhamma examinations three levels and I discuss with them. I have friendly monks who have been doing satipatthana or vipassana and I have chances to ask when I have questions in my mind. In early morning I pay homage to the Buddha (statue at home) concentrating on His ~naa.nas. I give ahaara daana to the Buddha (statue) along with drinking water. I take aajiiva.t.thamaka siila after taking tisara.na. Then I sit for some time as I do not enough time in weekdays. I sit for a full hour (alarm set for 60 minutes just before going into crossed-leg sit upright) daily. In between I chant Paa.li on protection. I also do Buddhaanussati. In my office under the cover glass on the office table I put a small card which writes on 32 ko.t.thaasa or 32 body parts in Paa.li. I contemplate on 32 body parts as part of kaayagataa sati. When not busy (mind) I contemplate on dhamma arising now and also rethink on texts of abhidhamma. I do meditation on defined period of one-hours. Hour to hour is connected just before starting next one-hour. When not in practice I read on dhamma magazines and dhamma letters. What I notice is that in any given day I try to calm down other people who are angry in different reasons while I myself do not feel any anger. When anger arises in me it does not come up to the surface even though sometimes I may be a bit late. When I lose something there is not much suffering. I have lost 200 lakhs or so. But I did not feel much on that. I think this is what the dhamma help me. I have on physical pain in many areas. But I can bear to some degrees. With Metta, Friend in Dhamma, Htoo Naing #131951 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin: Hi Htoo, > Sukin: > So you are referring to samma samadhi as a separate practice which is supposed to help panna of the Eightfold Path? ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > No. But I would rather give you examples. Have you ever taste a chicken curry? Taste. Could you tell me the taste? You would say "It is salty. Or it is spicy. Or it is sweet. Or it is sour. Our it is bitter." Actually there are different tastes. There what you recognize > most will appear to your mind and you would say 'some of them even though there are many'. I am not lateralizing. > When kusala dhamma arise as javana cittas there is a citta along with 19 cetasikas and if the kusala is tihetuka there will be panna as well. If kusala thing is karu.naa then there also is karuna cetasika. There are dhamma like ekaggata, cetana, sanna, saddha, sati, vitakka,viriya etc. Although there are many sometime one dhamma is used as a head-dhamma. All go hand in hand. > Without samaadhi there will not be panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For the Path it needs many conditions. One of conditions is foundation of pre-path. In pre-path siila has to be observed first but when working with pre-path there are only 5 parts. When this panc`ngika magga or pre-path is being built concentration is needed. If the mind is clouded then the path will not be clear. When not clear then the path-consciousness cannot arise ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Sukin: > Is not samma samadhi in fact ekaggata cetasika made "right" by virtue of being conditioned by samma ditthi? ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Theoretically right. Sammaa-samaadhi is not just simple ekaggataa. It has to be built. --------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: How? Through the practice of samatha leading to Jhana for instance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The best is 4th ruupa-jhaana. If 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th aruupa-jhaana can be attained it is good. Still if not yet possible 3rd, 2nd ruupa jhaanas are good to be in hand. If this is still not possible it is better to attain 1st jhaana. Even if not at jhaana (appanaa-samaadhi), it is better to have upacaara-samaadhi, which has almost the same power like 1st jhaana. In upcaara-samaadhi there is no hindrances no niivara.na dhamma. If there is niivara.na dhamma there will be slowness to progress in understanding (at experiential level). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Does not panna when developed, becomes indriya and bala > and this is what reflects the ease in arising regardless of whether > the preceding dhamma and object is kusala, akusala or avyakata? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > True. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Is panna indriya or bala only because samadhi is indriya and bala? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This is right. Balancing of indriya is required. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And does the balancing happen as a result of following separate practices for each of the indriyas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We do not need to set up indriya separately. But when go on there always is imbalance. Then this has to be balanced. In this instance we need upekkha which is best when 4th jhaana can be attained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > You miss the point. > Hearing the Dhamma and appreciating it, leads to seeing value in > continued listening rather than to the idea of doing something / practice. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You seem hating 'the idea of doing something'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And you don't seem to have any problem with it, so much so that you accept as valid, many different practices that are done in the name of "Buddhist" practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > What do you understand by "cira kala bhavana"? Is this a matter of 10, 20, 30 or 80 years, or uncountable lifetimes? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Cira = long time, cira.m = time-takenly, prolongedly > Cirassa kaalo --> cirakaalo > Cirakaalassa bhaavanaa --> cirakaala bhaavanaa > No need to count. But it is not short surely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Not counting, but you were giving figures such as 7 years and 30 years. But can these be anywhere close to the correct figure? How long does it take for the Arahatta with the lowest parami to reach his goal? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In Mahaa-satipa.t.thaana sutta.m the Buddha guranteed that if follow the teaching as described in that sutta.m average is 7 years for anaagaamii or arahat-ship. This is not my word. It is in sutta.m and what the Buddha said. "Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, ime cattaaro satipa.t.thaane eva.m bhaaveyya satta vassaani tassa dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m paa.tika`nkha.m di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa sati vaa upaadi sese anaagaamitaa." PS: The fastest is half-day if there is the Buddha as the teacher. This is for neyya puggalas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > If there is no Pariyatti understanding, wrong attainments will find > confirmation in the Tipitaka what it seeks. A very dangerous position > to be in. Begin again and again, which is none other than what appears > "now". Do you think someone who has attained will want to check with > the Tipitaka what he has experienced, or he will just keep developing understanding of the reality NOW? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What do you mean by wrong attainment? If it is wrong practice there is nothing to attain. The attainers do not need chechking because > checking has already been done in first javana after attainment as > paccavekkha.naa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I mean, what many people believe to be the result of meditation practice. Some not so great, some as being first jhana, second jhana, vipassanannana and even sotapatti or higher, but all in fact delusional. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is a monk in Myanmar. Bhaddanta Javana called "Myittarshin Shwe Pyii Thar". I quote him because what he said is logical. There are 3 jobs for three separate identities. 1. yogis' job 2. teachers' job 3. dhamma's job Yogis or meditators have to follow and practice according to what the teacher teach. Teachers are to guide their meditator-students to the right way. But not to decide whether his student is sotapanna or his student attains jhaana. Dhamma's job is realization. As you said some are delutional. But not all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Earlier while making the point of dhamma meditator / students in Myanmar not overlooking need to study the Tipitaka, you had said that some of them after attainment, would check with the texts to make sure that what they attained was correct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I said that it might well be tongue slip. In a case of a man who was the pupil of Ledi Sayadaw he understood that he had not attained path (magga) a few days before his attainment. He read the texts again even though he got the method of practice. After a few days he attained the path but not arahat-ship. After attainment he reproached his family whom he deserted for about more than 10 years. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Are you serious about such practices? Do you really believe that they are valid? The Dhamma is One and has one taste. The Path is one. Why would there be difference in practice instructions? ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are similarities and there also are dissimilarities. The arising of milestones are the same but when someone passes quickly he did not see all milestones. When passed slowly he saw all milestones. > The Path is one. But cars are not the same. Engines are not the same. Tyres are not the same. Car-bodies are not the same. One passed one's own path. But there can be generalization. > Example: Metta is adosa. But metta in a dog, in a man, in a monk, in a sotapanna, in the Buddha will not be the same even though characterwise it can be said that it is adosa or metta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You are saying this to justify different forms of meditation practice, but this is not the right way to think about these things, is it? Metta is metta. Whatever the strength, it still has a particular characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, and is this not the very point of studying the Abhidhamma? Therefore in the same way, the Path is the Path, it is accompanied by five or six particular group of cetasikas when it is mundane, and eight cetasikas when it is supra-mundane. Each of these cetasikas have a particular characteristic and perform their particular functions. This kind of understanding is exactly what helps us to discriminate between right vs. wrong practice, rather than end up believing in one or the other form of conventional practices, or worse, that they are all equally valid....?! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will put this aside. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Have you and any of the teachers ever checked with the Tipitaka > regarding these practices? Are you interested only in the "result" and not in the causes? ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I am interested in almost everything. I do search the causes, I do > look at the results, I do check the presence of associations, I do > track the presence of complications. 'Cause and effect' only is like > head and tail only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You mean that you check all these with reference to the present moment experience? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Present moment does not need to be checked in the texts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Practice is conditioned namas / sankhara dhammas or is it something else? ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > 1. sappuurisa sa.mveso > 2. saddhamma savana.m > Tipitaka needs at leats 7 years just for touch. But for practice not > evry detail is needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Patipatti is the result of accumulated pariyatti. Increased pariyatti understanding, is not detailed knowledge in terms of ideas attended to and remembered, but deeper understanding accompanied by increased confidence, with reference to the present moment reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said "every detail". In sutta.ms there are overlapping. There are things not directly link to pa.tipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This is by way of "thinking", different from patipatti which is "direct experience" of characteristic of a nama or rupa. > Associate with wiseman and being taught by wiseman are the first two > parts what you said. This is done before going into practice. > 3. yoniso manasikaara > 4. dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa > 3 & 4 require dhamma teachers. Need to be instructed otherwise will > miss nibbaana. ------------------------------------------------------ Sukin: You mean after "hearing the Dhamma" and "associating with the wise", you look for a "wise teacher" out there to teach you something which otherwise cannot happen? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For sotapanna-ship teacher is needed. "Yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.naaya satthaa pariyesitabbo_Sampayutta Nikaaya" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: After hearing the Buddha teach, some of his disciples had to look for teachers to learn meditation? So the Dhamma spoken by the Buddha alone was not enough for his disciples, and they needed something "more" from his enlightened savakas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please check that in sutta.ms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > "NO PRACTICE NO NIBBAANA". Neyya puggalaa have to do practice > otherwise will miss the greatest chance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So this practice is not a dhamma, but a conventional activity, namely, meditation? But as students of the Abhidhamma we are to understand all that ever arises and falls away as conditioned dhammas, is it not? So do tell me, what particular dhammas are encouraged in the name of meditation practice? Also, if we are supposed to refer to the particular conventional practice rather than characteristic and function of particular dhammas, do we do this out of blind faith or what? If you say that we follow a particular meditation instruction with "understanding", please point out exactly what this understanding is about? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you are happy with your own status it is OK. I will leave this off and I will not discuss on that(the immediate above one). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > But by this I do not mean "book knowledge", but of what > appears from moment to moment. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > When in real practice, 'moment to moment' matter is no more > theoretical but in real timeline. Things as they really are seen one > after another in clear background. What is not seen is 'bhava`nga-cittas'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The reference to "moment to moment" is saying that panna develops only in relation to what appears "now" and at any given moment, there is only ever "now" to be known. I don't believe in the idea of being mindful all the time, except only when it is bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When almost everything arises at door is known there left bhavanga cittas. If bhavanga cittas are not that much the meditators can know that there are gaps in between meditative mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Is this what you have in mind when you > suggest that those people in the Tipitaka who went in search of > teachers knew more Dhamma than I do? ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :>) > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Entertaining and believing in such stories, how does this reflect > development of Right Understanding? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Entertainment is not my job. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So thinking / speculating about the probable number of people who became sotapannas is something that panna would do? --------------------------------------------- > Right understanding does not arise without practice. Without > bhaavanaa, without satipatthana, without vipassana, without practice > there is no sotapanna, no sakadagam, no anagam, no arahats. --------------------------------------------- Sukin: Right understanding begins with pariyatti level. Patipatti can begin to arise only after this pariyatti level has been accumulated over many lifetimes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you will be waiting learning pariyatti and waiting for the right conditions to arise. OK that is your choice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If you refer to some conventional practice done by this or that person in a given lifetime, then you are not talking about that which is the result of accumulated pariyatti understanding and that which would lead to pativedha after yet more uncountable lifetimes, but something else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > They did have theoretical knowledge and understanding. But there was > no pa.tivedha because there was no pa.tipatti. That is why they were > sent to teachers who would guide them to attain nibbaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You mean they attained pativedha with just 7 days, 7 years or 70 years of patipatti regardless of whether or not panna, samadhi, sati, saddha and viriya were accumulated as indriya and bala? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was talking on time scale. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > The kind of thinking that you express here is something people of > other religions also express. As Dhamma students we know what it in > fact takes to determine whether someone has good sila or not, but more importantly, that it is Right View which is important and what really > determines whether someone has this or not. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Do you mean that the people I talked about had wrong view? Opposite. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Well, that would be the logical conclusion wouldn't it, given that you are representing their view and you keep expressing what I consider as wrong understanding with regard patipatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :>) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > So you do know that it is Right Understanding which is important and > that it is through questioning / discussion that one comes to know > whether this is present or not. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I do not understand what you mean. Could you please put it in another way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I was responding to this part of your last message: quote: > "But when I have to deal with that person I will assume him as a person. > If I have a chance to talk together I might know how deeply he know > dhamma and then I may feel confident that dhamma in him is dhamma." > Sukin: > Well, I was talking about me and everyone else on this list who have > expressed disagreement with you regarding the concept of "practice". > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Actually I am interested in dhammas and the Dhamma not in people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Sorry, but that is not the impression I have got in this particular discussion. You appear to express confidence in some respected teachers of Myanmar more than you do in the Dhamma. > Sukin: > So you were talking about someone else who has claimed to know > bhavanga cittas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Please look through this post again. There is a part that I had > written. Did I say as you said? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This is what you wrote in an earlier message: > Quote: > Htoo: > > "Pupils of Mahasi Sayadaw could experience bhava`ngacittas even though not directly." > I have to send this off quickly as my computer is showing some problems, > therefore I am not going to review what I wrote. Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry. I was too generalized to express that. Not all pupils. I was not included in them who can indirectly sense bhava`nga cittas. I should have written as 'one pupil or a few pupils'. What Sayadaw said was 'some'. My computer does not have much problem. But the problem here is connection. With respect, Htoo Naing #131952 From: jadhao@... Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Full moon day of Asalh. mastram101 Thanks Htoo Naing. -----Original Message----- From: "htoonaing@..." <...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rajendra and all, Isipattana migada vana. 'Isi' means 'ascetics'. Patati = to fall, to land. Patana = landing(like heli or plane). Isipatana = where ascetics land. Vana means 'forest'. Migada means 'deers'. Dhammacakka or 'wheels of dhamma'. One wheel is the wheel of NEP. NEP are infallible view, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration. The second wheel is the wheel of SACCA. Lokiya cakka is rolling as samudaya dukkha samadaya dukkha samudaya dukkha. Lokuttara cakka will be rolling as magga nirodha magga nirodha magga nirodha. The third wheel is the wheel of sacca-kicca-kata sacca-kicca-kata sacca-kicca-kata sacca-kicca-kata. The Buddha's disciples are still rolling the wheel. This will stop when there is no existance of Buddha's dhamma on this earth in this world. But as long as there are people who abide what the Buddha taught the wheel will still be rolling. <...> #131953 From: jadhao@... Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha mastram101 Great! -----Original Message----- From: "htoonaing@..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, I have to admit that I do both concentration meditation and insight meditation. Insight meditation-wise I reached somewhere not far from the starting point. I do know my speed of typing. I do not waste my precious time. I have to cure my patients. I have to teach medical students of undergraduates and postgraduates. I have to train my junior colleagues who are trying to attend postgraduate courses. I have to conduct examinations on candidates sitting for clinical part of their examinations. I have to attend examination boards. I have to attend monthly meetings. I have to attend annual meeting. I have to attend workshops on various clinical subjects. I have to attend protocol boards for postgraduate candidates. I have to pay attention to my Mom who has very complicated diseases. I have to patron my son who is attending medical university. And there are so many other jobs beyond these. <...> #131954 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:08 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha philofillet Dear Htoo Thank you for describing your grueling work/study life. To me it sounds like your meditation practice must be filled with too many hungry expectations but you will not see a problem with that since you believe it will lead you to become an Aryan. . I don't think Sukin or anyone will possibly be able to write anything to convince you otherwise. You are a True Believer in your guru. But I certainly understand what you wrote about anger arising less often and less strongly in tough situations because of meditation. I do breath yoga (that others would call meditation) every morning and definitely notice it's influence in daily life. It's a physiological thing. "meditatiin"/breath yoga affect the workings of the brain, there is no shortage of evidence on that. But I know it to be rooted in lobha, hunger for pleasant mind states and escape from dosa. All right, so at least unlike others you actually practice what you preach. I hope your pain and your mother's illness will get better. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello Htoo > > > > I am curious to know if you actually have a meditation practice. Rob E and Alex, the other advocates of meditation here have told us that they don't. You spend a lot of time on the Internet so I guess you don't either. I think someone who was really devoted to that kind of practice wouldn't spend as much time on the Internet as you do. > > > > Am I right? Is meditation something you like to advocate to others even though you don't have a "practice" yourself? > > > > Phil > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > endly monks who have been doing satipatthana or vipassana and I have chances to ask when I have questions in my mind. > > feel any anger. When anger arises in me it does not come up to the surface even though sometimes I may be a bit late. When I lose something there is not much suffering. I have lost 200 lakhs or so. But I did not feel much on that. I think this is what the dhamma help me. I have on physical pain in many areas. But I can bear to some degrees. > > With Metta, > > Friend in Dhamma, > > Htoo Naing > #131955 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:33 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) nichiconn still, Htoo, 99.999% will never pass but will keep on vainly trying to grow that third root - or assuming they already have it! why? maybe we all have listened to people who are not qualified to teach... and who would believe anyone who says "I AM"? connie > The arising of counter-image or pa.tibhaaga nimitta is just enough to test. Those who were born with just alobha and adosa (dvihetuka-personnel) cannot achieve pa.tibhaaga nimitta. > #131956 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:56 am Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. philofillet Hello Jagkrit >To the question that can we are aware of chanda, I think it is up to the degree of chanda. If the topic of dhamma is very interesting, there can be high degree of chanda to participate. If not, it can be only viriya or effort to participate. > Ph: Hmm, it seems to me that if the topic is very interesting lobha would be more intense too. So really only a stronger degree of panna could know. Ajahn's talking on how difficult it is to know kusala Nama from akusala Nama seems to have made a very strong impression on me. (There is clinging to it.) Knowing rupa from Nama is the area where panna will develop I feel. But I know this is ignorance, self wanting to impose rules. But for now at least I can't help but feel we don't know Nama to the degree by which we could possibly say it is Chanda rather than lobha, or samattha rather than lobha, or metta rather than lobha. Thinking about the situation when we are in the middle of it, sure, but the namas in question are long gone by them and only thinking about the situation and how self feels remains. > > And if there is, does it lead to development of Chanda, conditioning of future Chanda whether there is awareness of it or not? I heard Jon asking TA similar question on my behalf but I can't remember Ajahn's answer. > > JK: It is whether chanda cetasika is accumulated when it arises and falls away. I think chanda is the same as other cetasikas which are always accumulated within citta as latent tendency. That why people are so different due to their habits. Some are so keen to help others even something trivial. Some are so kind even to intolerable person. In the opposite, some are so fussy when choosing something. Some are so easily irritated even small matter. There should be different accumulation of chanda of different kusala and akusala cittas. > Ph:Thank you, nicely explained. > > > P: I think there can often be thinking about realities based on situations without awareness of the realities. A lot of thinking, like my thinking about Chanda when tapping out a message, in the example I used above. But how much actual awareness of characteristics of realities. Not much I think. > > JK: Yes, but It is good to know that we are overwhelmed by thinking almost every moment. But you know, no one can stop thinking. It is definitely impossible to choose not to think and be aware of reality instead. Ph:Yes. . I guess we could say that a concept of a paramattha dhamma is a relatively helpful object if thinking. Did you see my post about a week ago about thinking. Ajahn said "think less", which doesn't mean of course that she was telling us to try to think less, but rather that the more there is appreciation if realities, naturally the less there will be thinking about people and stories. J: However, when we listen to dhamma and understand the different between thinking and the story as an object of thinking, this sheds some light of understanding more what reality is. Ph: Well said! Earlier I said that the difference between nama and rupa is an area where I feel understanding will different, maybe also true of concept and reality? J: It is a good start to identify the different between thinking of reality and awareness of reality itself. And more and more understanding and contemplating dhamma will very little by little condition the ability for sati to activate more awareness to the realities appearing at each moment with less thinking. No rash. Only patient can keep us on and in the right path. Ph: You put things very well, Jagkrit! > Thank you and anumodhana for dhamma discussion Ph: Thank *you* Phil #131957 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:30 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha buddhatrue Hi Phil (and Htoo), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: It's a physiological thing. "meditatiin"/breath yoga affect the workings of the brain, there is no shortage of evidence on that. But I know it to be rooted in lobha, hunger for pleasant mind states and escape from dosa. > It is the nature of humans to seek out pleasure and avoid pain. That is hardwired and it isn't going to change. When the Buddha had finally exhausted all options; he had fought and fought and fought against this basic human characteristic through extreme austerities; he finally realized that he didn't need to fight against pleasure any longer- he simply had to pursue a pleasure not based on the five senses. It is through the pleasure of jhana, a pleasure not based on the five senses, that he was able to become liberated and find the truth. This pleasure of jhana can only be achieved through formal meditation practice. Is this meditation practice rooted in lobha? Well, yes because EVERYTHING humans do is rooted in lobha- (even listening to K. Sujin is rooted in lobha). There is no escaping that. Lobha is not the problem; ignorance is the problem. Metta, James #131958 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:28 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha philofillet Hi James You may have a point but since jhanas are not a proper pursuit for householders I have no interest in them. (I do enjoy the deeply blissful pseudo-jhanas I access through my samatthabation.) When it comes to Dhamma I am interested in moments of understanding with detachment. Yes, lots of lobha when listening to A Sujin or discussing or reflecting on paramattha dhammas as well, there is a dome of lobha covering our existence only a few rare openings. When it comes to Dhamma it is those rare openings I'm interested. When it comes to feelgood pop Dhamma gimme gimme gimme my samatthabation and the deep bliss of pseudo jhanas. Beats alcohol, that's for sure and could help to fend off Alzheimer's too... Phil #131959 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 23 jul 2013, om 02:29 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > Nina: Paramattha means in the highest sense, thus, not conventional. ... Citta, cetasika and ruupa can be experienced now, ... they are paramattha dhammas. ... their characteristics as different from conventional notions. > > Thomas: According to the SN suttas, citta and ruupa are not being named and regarded as paramattha dhammas. They (citta and ruupa) are just dhammas 'phenomena' arisen by causal condition (pa.ticca-samuppanna.m) (not by 'own being'); they are having the nature of 'anica, dukkha, anatta', which can be experienced now. The term, cetasika, is simply not found in the SN suttas. > ------- N: This may be so, but I find the commentarial tradition very important. You may not agree, and therefore I understand your reaction. As I explained, more important than words are for me characteristics that can be directly understood. That is the way to understand all those realities. ------ Nina. > > > > #131960 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:02 am Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. jagkrit2012 Dear Phil > Ph: Hmm, it seems to me that if the topic is very interesting lobha would be more intense too. So really only a stronger degree of panna could know. JK: I just made a presumption that cittas while discussing dhamma should be kusala. But you are right sometime they are lobhas with ditthi or mana. In this case, it is difficult to detect unless, as you said, panna is strong enough. There are words in Vanchakka Dhammas 38 (deceiving dhammas). One clause mentions that desire in confabulation deceives as delight in dhamma discussion. ============ > Ph: Ajahn's talking on how difficult it is to know kusala Nama from akusala Nama seems to have made a very strong impression on me. (There is clinging to it.) Knowing rupa from Nama is the area where panna will develop I feel. But I know this is ignorance, self wanting to impose rules. JK: Speaking of characteristic of rupa and nama, it is ture that one moment of rupa equals 17 moment of cittas. But this doesn't made it easy to understand rupa more than nama. During the day we open our eyes all the time but how much what we see and how much what we think is impossible even to prescribe. Therefore, as you said, not try to impose any rule to know which one first. This is one kind of understanding anatta as well. ============== > Ph: But for now at least I can't help but feel we don't know Nama to the degree by which we could possibly say it is Chanda rather than lobha, or samattha rather than lobha, or metta rather than lobha. Thinking about the situation when we are in the middle of it, sure, but the namas in question are long gone by then and only thinking about the situation and how self feels remains. JK: Speaking about "thinking", I rather use the word "considering or contemplating" the characteristic of dhammas described by abhidhamma and reminded by dhamma discussion and also in various suttas. To actually know any nama or rupa as it is, there must be comprehensive understanding the meaning of it by suttamayapanna, the first stage of understanding by listening or studying. When understanding grows sharp enough, panna will unmistakably know the reality its understand. Then no worry whether they are lobha, alobha, chanda or others because this panna is jintaamayapanna or direct understanding which it is beyond wording. I think this is the way it is like some simile in one sutta saying that panna grows step by step like sea shore goes deep into the sea little by little, not a sharp steep. ============== > Ph:Yes. . I guess we could say that a concept of a paramattha dhamma is a relatively helpful object if thinking. Did you see my post about a week ago about thinking. Ajahn said "think less", which doesn't mean of course that she was telling us to try to think less, but rather that the more there is appreciation if realities, naturally the less there will be thinking about people and stories. Jk: Yes, I agree with your post about this. More understanding less thinking. Thank you and anumodhana Jagkrit #131961 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:12 am Subject: Vipassanaa_024 (DT 911 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, "Siile pa.t.thaaya naro sappa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya.m. Aataapii nipako bhikkhu, so ima.m vija.taye jata.m" "The wise man dwelling on siila, having hi-drying effort and ripen wisdom when proliferating citta.m and pa~n~naa such a wise man can solve the complexities." Here the wise man seems accumulated being. Siila here is siila-visuddhi, purification of morality. Effort here is not just simple viriya. It has to be aatappa or burning. Those who has such effort is called aataapii, the person who has aatappa viriya. Ripen wisdom is nipako. Pacati means to cook. Paaka means `cooked'. Nipako here is wise man. However he is wise he does need siila as a requirement to solve the problem of complex (created by lobha ir ta.nhaa). To effectively practice siila, one has to understand what siila is. Siila has lakkha.na or sign or mark to know that it is siila. It is siilana which is simply called siila. Its lakkha.na is samaadhaana or well-establishment. Its lakkha.na is upadhaara.na or steadfastly-bringing. Siila has function or rasa. Its rasa is dussiilaya-viddha.msana or its function is to destroy dismorality-hood. It also functions as sin-freeing or anavajja-sampatti. Its paccupa.t.thaana or manifestation is purification or susuddhi. Its pada.t.thaana or immediate cause is shame-to-do-sin or hirii and fear-to-do-sin or ottappa. There are many siila. Group of two Caaritta siila & vaaritta siila Aabhisamaacaarika & aadibrahmacariyaka Viratii & aviratii Nissita & anissita Kaalapariyanta & aapaa.nako.tika Sapariyanta & apariyanta Lokiya & lokuttaraa Group of three Hiina, majjhima , pa.niita Attaadhipateyya, lokaadhipateyya, dhammaadhipateyya Paraama.t.tha, aparaama.t.tha, pa.tippassaddha Visuddha , avisuddha, vematika Sekkha, asekkha, nevasekkhanaasekkha Group of four Haanabhaagiya, .thitibhaagiya, visesabhaagiya, nibbedhabhaagiya Bhikkhu, bhikkhunii, anupasammanna, gaha.t.tha Pakati, aacaara, dhammataa, pubbahetuka Paatimokkhasa.mvara, indriyasa.mvara, aajiivapaarisuddhi, paccasannissita Group of five 1.Pariyantapaarisuddhi, 2.apayantapaarisuddhi, 3.paripu.n.napaarisuddhi, 4.aparaama.t.thapaarisuddhi, 5. pa.tipparissaddhipaarisuddhi 1.Pahaana, 2.verama.ni, 3.cetanaa, 4.sa.mvara, 5.aviitikkama Among these what matter are paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila, indriya-sa.mvara siila, aajivapaarisuddhi siila, and paccayasannissita siila are necessary for purification of siila or morality or siila-visuddhi. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-24 DT-911 #131962 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:53 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha kenhowardau Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > <. . .> > I have to admit that I do both concentration meditation and insight meditation <. . .> ------------ KH: Thanks for answering Phil's question: you have a very interesting and full daily life. Can I ask you to fit one more thing into your busy schedule? Just for a moment could you consider a world in which there were only dhammas? That would mean no Htoo, no hospitals, universities, post graduates or undergraduates, no past, no future: just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. It would mean there were no conventional activities - either in the work place or at home. And so it would have to mean there were no conventional meditation activities. The only form of meditation that could possibly exist in this present-moment world would be a single citta with panna - right now - performing the functions of right understanding. There is no control over these dhammas, and so there is no controlled Buddhist meditation, is there? Anyway, that's all I am asking. That's all I would ask of all Buddhist meditators - just spare a little time to consider this alternative way of understanding the Dhamma. Ken H #131963 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:38 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha nichiconn James: This pleasure of jhana can only be achieved through formal meditation practice. c: Is this the same pleasantness he found as a babe? Nice to see you, c #131964 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:20 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, and All, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > Op 23 jul 2013, om 02:29 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > Nina: Paramattha means in the highest sense, thus, not conventional. ... Citta, cetasika and ruupa can be experienced now, ... they are paramattha dhammas. ... their characteristics as different from conventional notions. > > Thomas: According to the SN suttas, citta and ruupa are not being named and regarded as paramattha dhammas. They (citta and ruupa) are just dhammas 'phenomena' arisen by causal condition (pa.ticca-samuppanna.m) (not by 'own being'); they are having the nature of 'anica, dukkha, anatta', which can be experienced now. The term, cetasika, is simply not found in the SN suttas. > > ------- > N: This may be so, but I find the commentarial tradition very important. You may not agree, and therefore I understand your reaction. As I explained, more important than words are for me characteristics that can be directly understood. That is the way to understand all those realities. Thomas: The term, paramattha dhammas, is the Abhidhamma's invention. (The Buddha did not use the term for his teachings, according to the SN suttas). But, if the concept of paramattha is 'not' being used in the sense (or theory) of a 'metaphysical entity' (including the notion of nibbana/nirvana), then, it 'may be' useful to name it for understanding the nature (characteristics, realities) of phenomena 'dhammas'. However, I still consider there is no need to name paramattha dhammas (for both the five aggregates and nibbana), but just to see (passati) and know (jaanaati) directly body and mind phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', and as 'the middle way', for the ending of dukkha (= nibbana), according to the SN suttas. Regards, Thomas #131965 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:28 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_024 (DT 911 ) thomaslaw03 --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > "Siile pa.t.thaaya naro sappa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya.m. Aataapii nipako bhikkhu, so ima.m vija.taye jata.m" > > "The wise man dwelling on siila, having hi-drying effort and ripen wisdom when proliferating citta.m and pa~n~naa such a wise man can solve the complexities." Here the wise man seems accumulated being. Siila here is siila-visuddhi, purification of morality. Effort here is not just simple viriya. > > It has to be aatappa or burning. Those who has such effort is called aataapii, the person who has aatappa viriya. Ripen wisdom is nipako. Pacati means to cook. Paaka means `cooked'. Nipako here is wise man. However he is wise he does need siila as a requirement to solve the problem of complex (created by lobha ir ta.nhaa). > > To effectively practice siila, one has to understand what siila is. Siila has lakkha.na or sign or mark to know that it is siila. It is siilana which is simply called siila. Its lakkha.na is samaadhaana or well-establishment. Its lakkha.na is upadhaara.na or steadfastly-bringing. Siila has function or rasa. > > Its rasa is dussiilaya-viddha.msana or its function is to destroy dismorality-hood. It also functions as sin-freeing or anavajja-sampatti. Its paccupa.t.thaana or manifestation is purification or susuddhi. Its pada.t.thaana or immediate cause is shame-to-do-sin or hirii and fear-to-do-sin or ottappa. > > There are many siila. > > Group of two > > Caaritta siila & vaaritta siila > Aabhisamaacaarika & aadibrahmacariyaka > Viratii & aviratii > Nissita & anissita > Kaalapariyanta & aapaa.nako.tika > Sapariyanta & apariyanta > Lokiya & lokuttaraa > > > Group of three > > Hiina, majjhima , pa.niita > Attaadhipateyya, lokaadhipateyya, dhammaadhipateyya > Paraama.t.tha, aparaama.t.tha, pa.tippassaddha > Visuddha , avisuddha, vematika > Sekkha, asekkha, nevasekkhanaasekkha > > > Group of four > > Haanabhaagiya, .thitibhaagiya, visesabhaagiya, nibbedhabhaagiya > Bhikkhu, bhikkhunii, anupasammanna, gaha.t.tha > Pakati, aacaara, dhammataa, pubbahetuka > Paatimokkhasa.mvara, indriyasa.mvara, aajiivapaarisuddhi, paccasannissita > > > Group of five > > 1.Pariyantapaarisuddhi, 2.apayantapaarisuddhi, 3.paripu.n.napaarisuddhi, 4.aparaama.t.thapaarisuddhi, 5. pa.tipparissaddhipaarisuddhi > > > 1.Pahaana, 2.verama.ni, 3.cetanaa, 4.sa.mvara, 5.aviitikkama > > > Among these what matter are paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila, indriya-sa.mvara siila, aajivapaarisuddhi siila, and paccayasannissita siila are necessary for purification of siila or morality or siila-visuddhi. > > > > May you all be well and happy, > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > V-24 DT-911 Dear Htoo, It will be good if you include also your translation of the Pali words. Sincerely, Thomas #131966 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:35 am Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear Phil Hi Jagkrit > There are words in Vanchakka Dhammas 38 (deceiving dhammas). One clause mentions that desire in confabulation deceives as delight in dhamma discussion. Ph: What is this "Vanchakkas Dhammas?" > > Ph: Ajahn's talking on how difficult it is to know kusala Nama from akusala Nama seems to have made a very strong impression on me. (There is clinging to it.) Knowing rupa from Nama is the area where panna will develop I feel. But I know this is ignorance, self wanting to impose rules. > > JK: Speaking of characteristic of rupa and nama, it is ture that one moment of rupa equals 17 moment of cittas. But this doesn't made it easy to understand rupa more than nama. Ph: Often I mention my impression tht Ajahn said ripa appears more than nama and I note that she said "visible object!" To Lukas, not "seeing!" But in this case I didn't mean that, I was just referring to the development of thst first tenser insight of lnowing na from rupa. I sense tgat this is where panna deops but so far I haven' found myself trying to know nama from rupa. If I were an "insight meditator" I surely would fall into that trap. But yes, on a different topic, but I do feel visible object appears more or i less subtle than seeing, and same for the other pancavinnanas. But not trying to "do" anything with this hunch. JK: During the day we open our eyes all the time but how much what we see and how much what we think is impossible even to prescribe. Therefore, as you said, not try to impose any rule to know which one first. This is one kind of understanding anatta as well. > Ph: Thankyou for the reminder! > > Ph: But for now at least I can't help but feel we don't know Nama to the degree by which we could possibly say it is Chanda rather than lobha, or samattha rather than lobha, or metta rather than lobha. Thinking about the situation when we are in... > > JK: Speaking about "thinking", I rather use the word "considering or contemplating" the characteristic of dhammas described by abhidhamma and reminded by dhamma discussion and also in various suttas. To actually know any nama or rupa as it is, there must be comprehensive understanding the meaning of it by suttamayapanna, the first stage of understanding by listening or studying. When understanding grows sharp enough, panna will unmistakably know the reality its understand. Then no worry whether they are lobha, alobha, chanda or others because this panna is jintaamayapanna or direct understanding which it is beyond wording. I think this is the way it is like some simile in one sutta saying that panna grows step by step like sea shore goes deep into the sea little by little, not a sharp steep. > Ph Thank you. Very interesting. If you just tell me that "contemplating or considering" is different from thinking I would be dpubtful but ere you laid it out clearly suttamayapanna and jintaamayapanna, and he simile of the gradually deepening steps into the sea. Thanks and anumodhana. (Which I guess means rejoicing in appreciation of Dhamma? Or rejoicing in merit of discussing Dhamma? I forget) Phil > > Ph:Yes. . I guess we could say that a concept of a paramattha dhamma is a relatively helpful object if thinking. Did you see my post about a week ago about thinking. Ajahn said "think less", which doesn't mean of course that she was telling us to try to think less, but rather that the more there is appreciation if realities, naturally the less there will be thinking about people and stories. > > Jk: Yes, I agree with your post about this. More understanding less thinking. > > Thank you and anumodhana > > Jagkrit > #131967 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:43 am Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. philofillet Hi Jagkrit Chanda was on temporary work stoppage! Careless cittas wrote: : " thst first tenser insight of lnowing na from rupa. I sense tgat this is where panna deops Cittas with chanda (or so I speculate) write "that first tender insight of knowing nama from rupa. I sense that this is where panna devlelops." Phil #131968 From: "colette_aube" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:54 am Subject: Re: What is fear? colette_aube Hi Phil > Hmmm. In my opinion rather than the ability to recognize what is kusala and what is akusala the fact that they are just dhammas rising and falling away again, gone forever, is the most beneficial thing. If we get too interested in distinguishing kusala from akusala and wanting to have the former it just becomes all about being the virtuous kusala person. Isn't it much more reassuring to know that there is no self, just dhammas rising and falling away. The akusala ones, the kusala ones, nothing to get worked up about, we are released from worry the deeper we get into Abhidhamma, I think. > > Phil colette: one man's trash is another man's treasure. #131969 From: "colette_aube" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:13 am Subject: Re: What is fear? colette_aube Hi Phil, again, > Maybe I went too far here. colette: WITHOUT QUESTION, 'nough said. Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala kamma patha, for example, must be some kind of wrong view. Bit there has to be equanimous understanding that akusala has been arising for a hell of a long time and will continue to do so. If we fight against that, it will be a futile exercise of deluded cittas. But we can feel confident that there is more and more understanding, the most valuable kind of kusala. colette: Kusala and Akusala ARE NOTHING MORE THAN CHOICES THAT AN INDIVIDUAL MAKES FOR THEMSELVES. I CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS BAD. Even if I do try to tell you what is good and what is bad, my action has nothing to do with YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE DECISION FOR YOURSELF. Can't we say that DOGMA is nothing more than an EXTREME. <....> "NAME AND FORM", take for instance, these alleged "PEARLY GATES" into this prison system or insane assylum (an INSTITUTION). People have chosen to label, to NAME, one side differently from the other, yet the names rest on the foundation of DUALITY. On one side we have THE PILLAR OF MERCY and the other side, naturally, if not obviously, is the PILLAR OF SEVERITY i.e. PASSIVE AGRESSIVE. Are we obligated by some delusional mandate or dictate, that some group of people decided to INSTITUTIONALIZE, which says that we have to make a decision and either exist on one side or the other side? What about THE MIDDLE PATH? If I take a FORCE of PURE MERCY and put it into CONFLICT with the FORCE of PURE SEVERITY then you surely must know where the point is that is, that exists, as SUNYA. Have you ever enjoyed the bliss that Szechuan or Thai cooking can bring to the pallet or do you prefer CANTONESE, freshly taken from swimming in the water then suddenly seared in a Wok? Ah yes, but I'm in the middle of TANTRA so maybe I shouldn't bring to the table that deliscious GHOST PEPPER that India is home of. ------------------ > > Thanks for your stimulating comment! > colette: but only now have I pricked your interest in the NAGA BHUT JOLOKIA aka GHOST PEPPER, AS A MEANS OF STIMULATION. ;) toodles, colette #131970 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:10 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. jagkrit2012 Dear Phil Good example !! Chanda of mindful on typing dhamma message. And yes panna will develop when it start to knows any reality as it is. Jagkrit > Hi Jagkrit > > Chanda was on temporary work stoppage! > > Careless cittas wrote: : " thst first > tenser insight of lnowing na from rupa. I sense tgat this is where panna deops > > Cittas with chanda (or so I speculate) write "that first tender insight of knowing nama from rupa. I sense that this is where panna devlelops." > > Phil > #131971 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:42 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, and All, According to the SN 12.70 (PTS ii, pp. 119-128), some monks have attained 'liberation' (vimutti) without attaining the meditative concentration: 'calmed emancipations' (santaa vimokkhaa) (= where 'ruupa is transcended and aruupa is attained'). The monks in the Pali text are regarded as the Wisdom-liberated (pa~n~naa-vimutaa) (cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 201-2). So it seems that the so-called Wisdom-liberated [Arahants] do not need to attain a high level of meditative concentration? Regards, Thomas #131972 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha thomaslaw03 > Ken H: ... Anyway, that's all I am asking. That's all I would ask of all Buddhist meditators - just spare a little time to consider this alternative way of understanding the Dhamma. This question sounds like concluding that all Buddhist meditators do not know how to understanding the Buddha's Dhamma at the present time! What a sense of self-attachment! Thomas #131973 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:05 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. jagkrit2012 Dear Phil > Ph: What is this "Vanchakkas Dhammas?" Jk: It is called deceiving or cheating dhamma. When someone mistakenly believes that akusala dhamma to be kusala dhamma. Akusala deceives us as kusala. There is further explanation that " These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards akusalas. The akusala dhammas disguise themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality,(as the mud gets the shape of the object that pressed onto it.)" For more detail if you like to read more, it is in web site of Robert K as follows: http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=88&pid=292&mode=threaded&sh\ ow=&st=&#entry292 And what I've mention about akusala disguise as kusala in dhamma discussion is in topic 27. 27. gananuggahakarana mukhena samganikaramata vangceti. kusala gananuggahakarana - maintaining 'anuggaha' to others. (anuggaha- helping,assisting,progressive company gana- groups etc... egroups? ) akusala samganikaramata - mere 'social'-ness , hidden attachment to company and social activities. When cheated by this the samanas divert from the essencial components of effective living, ie study, samatha & vipassana... =============== > Ph: Often I mention my impression that Ajahn said rupa appears more than nama and I note that she said "visible object!" To Lukas, not "seeing!" But in this case I didn't mean that, I was just referring to the development of this first tender insight of knowing nama from rupa. I sense that this is where panna develops but so far I haven' found myself trying to know nama from rupa. If I were an "insight meditator" I surely would fall into that trap. Jk: I think TA said to Lukas that "remember visible objects". But she did not say in a way to focus on visible object. In my opinion, I'd rather understand each nama or rupa whenever it appears whether in my thinking or else. When understand more, there shall be knowing nama from rupa gradually. Don't have to set a point to start with. And you are so right it is a "trap", the unsuspecting pitfall of self. =============== > Ph: but I do feel visible object appears more or less subtle than seeing, and same for the other pancavinnanas. But not trying to "do" anything with this hunch. Jk: I'm not sure what you say about the subtleness of rupa and pancavinnana Cittas. In a sense of existing, moment of seeing, hearing,...are shorter than visible object, sound,.....etc. Therefore, rupa presents or explodse itself more than nama in a moment. There shall be a possibility to know rupa more than nama. But this is just speculation because dhamma is not science or mathematic. Possibility is not one of 3 characteristics: anicca, dukkha and anatta. ================= > Ph: anumodhana. (Which I guess means rejoicing in appreciation of Dhamma? Or rejoicing in merit of discussing Dhamma? I forget) Jk: Both are correct. When we discuss and share dhamma with appreciation of its great virtue , they are both merits for anyone to rejoice. Thank you and anumodhana Jagkrit #131974 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:02 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) jonoabb Hi pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi all, > > In light of recent discussions on lobha and ditthi, I was wondering lately regarding thinking and discussing Dhamma. > > While there can certainly be kusala pariyatti moments on such occasions - so moments when panna arises in the midst of all the thinking, still, these moments are likely to be rare, I take it. So, then, most of the other moments of thinking and discussing Dhamma are likely to be akusala. In that sense, I take it there would be a lot of moments of lobha. But, that's just lobha, so to speak. > > More importantly, there could also be moments of lobha and ditthi. I take it this could happen even if the thinking is "correct", i.e. there's an intellectual belief in kamma, in anatta, in conditionality, parramattha dhammas, etc, but all this still wouldn't preclude the arising of ditthi when there's thinking about these things. > > In that regard, how would a moment of lobha and ditthi differ from a moment of just lobha - when thinking about Dhamma? > > For example, would it have to do with speculative (intellectual) view that only this is right and everything else is wrong even though there's no actual panna that would know this first-hand? > > Would it have to do with speculating on the subject without panna actually knowing these things at the time - e.g. speculating about eye-sense being anatta, without actual panna ever having known eye-sense directly? Thanks > =============== J: Wrong view is a view about the way things are that is not in accordance with the way things in fact are. Here, a view means a view that is held, a belief, i.e., not just having an idea based on things heard or read about. Speculating about the way things are would generally fall under the latter category (i.e., not a 'held view'). Wrong view may not arise all that much in a day. It may, however, condition ideas of wrong practice. Jon #131975 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 25 jul 2013, om 03:20 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > The term, paramattha dhammas, is the Abhidhamma's invention. (The Buddha did not use the term for his teachings, according to the SN suttas). ------ N: Invention? Abhidhamma: higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. We find the word abidhamma also in the suttas. ------- > Th: But, if the concept of paramattha is 'not' being used in the sense (or theory) of a 'metaphysical entity' (including the notion of nibbana/nirvana), then, it 'may be' useful to name it for understanding the nature (characteristics, realities) of phenomena 'dhammas'. ------ N: It is not theory, it is about reality now. You prefer phenomena as rendered by dhammas, O.K. But they are real, now. -------- > > Th: However, I still consider there is no need to name paramattha dhammas (for both the five aggregates and nibbana), but just to see (passati) and know (jaanaati) directly body and mind phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', and as 'the middle way', for the ending of dukkha (= nibbana), according to the SN suttas. ----- N: We were discussing the five khandhas. Feeling, sa~n~naa and sa"nkhaarakkhandha you would not call these cetasikas. But, more important, what are they? What is sa"nkhaarakkhandha? What is included here? To see and know directly bodily and mental phenomena as they are, dukkha, etc. Yes, but should we not be sure at first what bodily and mental phenomena are precisely? As they appear one at a time? At this moment? To see them as dukkha etc. is not seeing them ingeneral as such, but to see the dukkha, etc. of each dhamma that presents itself now, that is indispensable. Otherwise we get stuck at abstractions our whole life. Then our dhamma study would be in vain. This is really regrettable. ------- Nina. #131976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. nilovg Dear Jagkrit, I am very glad you remind us of the vancaka dhammas. Excellent. I hope you will mention more. Nina. Op 24 jul 2013, om 16:02 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > JK: I just made a presumption that cittas while discussing dhamma should be kusala. But you are right sometime they are lobhas with ditthi or mana. In this case, it is difficult to detect unless, as you said, panna is strong enough. > > There are words in Vanchakka Dhammas 38 (deceiving dhammas). One clause mentions that desire in confabulation deceives as delight in dhamma discussion. #131977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha nilovg Dear Htoo and Ken, Op 25 jul 2013, om 00:53 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > KH: Thanks for answering Phil's question: you have a very interesting and full daily life. ----- N: Yes Htoo, I am very impressed and I do not understand how you can find time to do all those activities as well as analysing Pali terms. How do you manage it all? ------ > > Ken: Can I ask you to fit one more thing into your busy schedule? Just for a moment could you consider a world in which there were only dhammas? That would mean no Htoo, no hospitals, universities, post graduates or undergraduates, no past, no future: just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. ----- N: I think it is good to know that in the ulimate sense there are only naama and ruupa. This is daily life, not abstract. ---- Nina. #131978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Yes, now I understand the reason for those advertisements. Thank you for telling me about the Cambodian monk who appreciates T.A. and your additional explanations of the talk. Nina. Op 23 jul 2013, om 05:45 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > JK: It is because the foundation uses free board-cast. Even in Thai web, There will be pop up advertisement all the time and every 10 - 20 minutes there will be short commercial intervention as well. #131979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quote from Survey. 2. nilovg Dear Sarah, Dieter, Jagkrit, I am glad about the text Jagkrit referred to. How gradual it is. And good: it begins with right understanding now, that is, of the present reality. What else there is? Nina. Op 17 jul 2013, om 10:36 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch. > > > > - Ud 5.5 > > > > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70 > ... > S: This is talking about the gradual path, not about which path factors arise first. The gradual training begins with right understanding now. #131980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revulsion, dispassion and so on nilovg Dear Phil, Op 7 jul 2013, om 01:06 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I come across a lot of words referring to what arises out of the development if understanding, words like revulsion, and dispassion. Is it worth learning what these words actually mean? What value is there in knowing more in theory about attainments when our understanding is so weak, so far from attainments? ------ N: Yes, good to learn about detachment. Even now when beginning to understand that there is no person there, only dhaatus, that brings already a little degree of detachment. We do not have to think of attainments. The beginning can be small, but it can grow. Nina. #131981 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] TA on the blessings nilovg Dear Alberto, thank you for the transcription. Only elements, very good to hear this again and again. Nina. Op 7 jul 2013, om 11:26 heeft sprlrt@... het volgende geschreven: > ., the reason to see the value of kusala and the dangers of akusala; everything is a bit of accumulations, from aeons and aeons before, that's why today there's one taken for Lukas, and what people take for this or that person, but in reality they're all dhatus (elements), and when you talk about dhatus - nobody can do anything to fire, or earth, or wind or anything, because there are conditions for their arising, everything has conditions for its arising; #131982 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:03 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Htoo) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > > > > <. . .> > > > I have to admit that I do both concentration meditation and insight meditation <. . .> > ------------ > > KH: Thanks for answering Phil's question: you have a very interesting and full daily life. > > Can I ask you to fit one more thing into your busy schedule? Just for a moment could you consider a world in which there were only dhammas? That would mean no Htoo, no hospitals, universities, post graduates or undergraduates, no past, no future: just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. > > It would mean there were no conventional activities - either in the work place or at home. And so it would have to mean there were no conventional meditation activities. > > The only form of meditation that could possibly exist in this present-moment world would be a single citta with panna - right now - performing the functions of right understanding. > > There is no control over these dhammas, and so there is no controlled Buddhist meditation, is there? > > Anyway, that's all I am asking. That's all I would ask of all Buddhist meditators - just spare a little time to consider this alternative way of understanding the Dhamma. > > Ken H > ================================== Ken, I think yours is an excellent post! It is clear and persuasive. My only question with regard to this matter is where you see relations among dhammas fitting in, and what you consider to be the namic mechanism by which such relations are understood. With metta, Howard /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #131983 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:55 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... Ken H: Hi Htoo, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > I have to admit that I do both concentration meditation and insight meditation <. . .> ------------ KH: Thanks for answering Phil's question: you have a very interesting and full daily life. Can I ask you to fit one more thing into your busy schedule? Just for a moment could you consider a world in which there were only dhammas? That would mean no Htoo, no hospitals, universities, post graduates or undergraduates, no past, no future: just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I sink into Buddha-vandanaa (worshiping the Buddha), just before that activity comes the world as you said. At that time there was nothing but dhamma. Conventional idea then arise when I first see or hear someone whom I have to respond. Otherwise inanimate objects or people whom I do not know are not conventionally seen or heard. I mean when I rise from worshiping I am still in insight meditation as long as there is special things when I have to respond. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: It would mean there were no conventional activities - either in the work place or at home. And so it would have to mean there were no conventional meditation activities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In the work place if I am not called for I am mostly in following happening mind. When I am asked and I have to answer then I exit from meditation and touch conventional things (even though there is no conventional things). At home the same things happen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: The only form of meditation that could possibly exist in this present-moment world would be a single citta with panna - right now - performing the functions of right understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Seeing single citta is very difficult. Even when this happens there are many things happened. Example is contemplating on dosa which does not come out the surface but it arises in mind. Sometimes, there is a sense that there is no body and no surrounding but the mind with clear halo. Once I posted 'Me and Sea' in 2005. But this does not happen frequently. When it happens, it is easier to cognise dhamma as it is and very present moments are hit one after another. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: There is no control over these dhammas, and so there is no controlled Buddhist meditation, is there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think there was no such idea 'control' in me just before entering meditation, during meditation and a few moments after meditation. As I said I would be in conventional world when I have to respond verbally. In 24 hours there are many moments outside of insight. For me there are only 2 to 3 hours (maybe less). I faced shower of knowings but it did not last long. If I have time for example 'intensive working out on dhamma with insight meditation' for a full month (I mean no intervention of any conventional things) I might have changed greatly. But an hour a day or so is working bit by bit. The most difficult part in meditation (insight) is when speaking. Conventional things are real and dhammas are real. But only when dhammas are seen conventional things will be seen as dhammas and not conventional things. If this happens there is detachment because there is nothing to become attached. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Anyway, that's all I am asking. That's all I would ask of all Buddhist meditators - just spare a little time to consider this alternative way of understanding the Dhamma. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think 'just understanding' is not enough even though it is not possible without it. I said I do practice both concentration and insight. Concentration is for later application not for insight directly. Some other people would say "if trying who is trying? there is lobha". But in me 'it does not appear in my conscious mind as "control" and what appear is just dhamma' when trying. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131984 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:08 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_024 (DT 911 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > Htoo Naing > > V-24 DT-911 Dear Htoo, It will be good if you include also your translation of the Pali words. Sincerely, Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Thomas, that post is a summary on 'siila'/morality/practice/observation. Not to be long translation is dropped but in the next post there will be translation and possibly interpretation as well. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131985 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:27 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, and All, > > According to the SN 12.70 (PTS ii, pp. 119-128), some monks have attained 'liberation' (vimutti) without attaining the meditative concentration: 'calmed emancipations' (santaa vimokkhaa) (= where 'ruupa is transcended and aruupa is attained'). The monks in the Pali text are regarded as the Wisdom-liberated (pa~n~naa-vimutaa) (cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 201-2). So it seems that the so-called Wisdom-liberated [Arahants] do not need to attain a high level of meditative concentration? > > Regards, > > Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Thomas, There are monks when liberated having 'ceto vimutti' or 'panna vimutti' and also there are monks when liberated having 'ubhatobhaaga vimutti'. It is in Mahaa-Nidaana sutta.m of Diigha Nikaaya. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: (Ceto = mind (citta), panna = wisdom, vimutti = liberation Ubhato = both, bhaaga = group/pile/collection/side Nidaana = cause, diigha = long) #131986 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:45 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha truth_aerator Dear Thomas, all, > Dear Htoo, and All, > > According to the SN 12.70 (PTS ii, pp. 119-128), some monks have attained 'liberation' (vimutti) without attaining the meditative concentration: 'calmed emancipations' (santaa vimokkhaa) (= where 'ruupa is transcended and aruupa is attained'). The monks in the Pali text are regarded as the Wisdom-liberated (pa~n~naa-vimutaa) (cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 201-2). So it seems that the so-called Wisdom-liberated [Arahants] do not need to attain a high level of meditative concentration? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you implying Arhatship following Noble Sevenfold Path? When you said "attain a high level of meditative concentration?" it probably means arupa samapatti, right? With best wishes, Alex #131987 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:07 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha truth_aerator Dear KenH, all, >KH Can I ask you to fit one more thing into your busy schedule? Just for a moment could you consider a world in which there were only dhammas? That would mean no Htoo, no hospitals, universities, post graduates or undergraduates, no past, no future: just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. > > It would mean there were no conventional activities - either in the work place or at home. And so it would have to mean there were no conventional meditation activities. > > The only form of meditation that could possibly exist in this present-moment world would be a single citta with panna - right now - performing the functions of right understanding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex: The only possible outcome of fully following this would be to drop like a senseless log of wood because one wouldn't be able to make sense of anything. Why walk if walking is conventional activity that isn't a dhamma, and thus doesn't exist? Why stand? Why try to walk through the door rather than through a wall? How do we distinguish a crosswalk safe to cross and busy crosswalk, red from green light, empty space from car being there??? How respond to this or that stimuli if the response is conventional action which you claim doesn't really exist? I suppose that there might be some form or happiness being happy clam that can't distinguish any object... But this is not how Buddha and others behaved. With best wishes. Alex #131988 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... Nina: Dear Htoo and Ken, > Op 25 jul 2013, om 00:53 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > KH: Thanks for answering Phil's question: you have a very interesting and full daily life. ----- N: Yes Htoo, I am very impressed and I do not understand how you can find time to do all those activities as well as analysing Pali terms. How do you manage it all? ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, I have been in touch with Paa.li since I was 13. But I started studying Paa.li grammar from 40 of my age. Even though I read many texts on Paa.li grammar I did not do exercises in them. So my Paa.li is still not good. I did samatha bit by bit. I am still doing now. I like "the Buddha stayed in phala-samaapatti in between the pauce of His words and the end of the voice Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu! by audience. Now I am going with busy schedules mixed with insight (worldly things : insight = 20 : 1 or may reach 100: 1). This is like that for 100 minutes I am on conventional work and just 1 minute contemplate on true dhamma. Anyway when solving problems at work 'dosa' and 'dislike' appear less and less. They hardly come up to the surface. Teaching stuffs come after my age of 40. Especially PG teaching takes time. With respect, Htoo Naing ----------------- >Nina. #131989 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:29 am Subject: Vipassanaa_025 (DT 912 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, "Siile pa.t.thaaya naro sappa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya.m. Aataapii nipako bhikkhu, so ima.m vija.taye jata.m" Gloss-: Siile = at siila(morality), pa.t.thaaya = by dwelling/living/standing on Naro = man (human being), sappanno = (saha + panno), saha = along with/parallel with Naro sappanno = wise man, citta.m = to citta, bhaavayati /bhaaveti = proliferate Aataapii = those who have aataapa (high viriya/effort)= buring hot (to burn akusalas or kilesas Nipako = ni + paaka, pacati= to cook, paaka = cooked, nipako = wise man, so = he, ima.m = this Jata = entangled knots, vija.ta(ye) = solving "The wise man dwelling on siila, having hi-drying effort and ripen wisdom when proliferating citta.m and pa~n~naa such a wise man can solve the complexities (entangled knots)." Here the wise man seems accumulated being. Siila here is siila-visuddhi, purification of morality. Effort here is not just simple viriya. It has to be aatappa or burning. Those who has such effort is called aataapii, the person who has aatappa viriya. Ripen wisdom is nipako. Pacati means to cook. Paaka means `cooked'. Nipako here is wise man. However he is wise he does need siila as a requirement to solve the problem of complex (created by lobha or ta.nhaa). To effectively practice siila, one has to understand what siila is. Siila has lakkha.na or sign or mark to know that it is siila. It is siilana which is simply called siila. Its lakkha.na is samaadhaana or well-establishment. Its lakkha.na is upadhaara.na or steadfastly-bringing. Siila has function or rasa. Its rasa is dussiilaya-viddha.msana or its function is to destroy dismorality-hood. It also functions as sin-freeing or anavajja-sampatti. Its paccupa.t.thaana or manifestation is purification or susuddhi. Its pada.t.thaana or immediate cause is shame-to-do-sin or hirii and fear-to-do-sin or ottappa. There are many siila. Group of two Caaritta siila & vaaritta siila Aabhisamaacaarika & aadibrahmacariyaka Viratii & aviratii Nissita & anissita Kaalapariyanta & aapaa.nako.tika Sapariyanta & apariyanta Lokiya & lokuttaraa Gloss-: caaritta siila (siila that bring doing good things), vaaritta siila (siila that avoid doing bad things) Abhisamaacaara = abhi (great/higher/many) + sama (evenly) + aacaara (practice/training) Abhisamaacaara = dwelling in highness, aabhisamacaarika siila = magga-siila, phala-siila Aadhibrahmacarika = aadhi (initial/earlier/first-comer/beginning)+ brahma + cariya, brahma-cariya = magga, aadhibrahmacariyaka siila = pre-path siila Viratii siila = siila that avoid doing bad things (led by viratii cetasikas), aviratii siila = siila not related to viratii cetasikas but siila led by cetanaa cetasika Nissita siila examples: ta.nhaa-nissita siila (practicing siila so that to become a deva or a rich man, ditthi-nissita siila (practicing siila so that to be liberated), nissaya = where things depend Anissita siila = non-depending siila that is lokuttaraa-siila or supramundane morality. This also includes lokiya siila leading to lokuttara siila (samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, samma-ajiva) Kaala = time/time scale, pariyanta =measurement, kaalapariyanta siila = siila for limited period or time. Aapaa.nako.tika siila = siila for lifetime (once observed it is for the whole life) Sapariyanta siila = limited timed siila or siila with defined period of time from somewhere to somewhere (example for one day). Apariyanta siila is opposite of sapariyanta siila Lokuttaraa-siila is siila at the time of magga (path) or phala (fruition). Lokiya is mundane May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-25 DT-912 #131990 From: "quietstormjazz63" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:26 am Subject: New group member, quietstormja... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > still, Htoo, 99.999% will never pass but will keep on vainly trying to grow that third root - or assuming they already have it! why? > maybe we all have listened to people who are not qualified to teach... and who would believe anyone who says "I AM"? > connie > > > The arising of counter-image or pa.tibhaaga nimitta is just enough to test. Those who were born with just alobha and adosa (dvihetuka-personnel) cannot achieve pa.tibhaaga nimitta. > > > Hello, My name is Cristina, I live in Louisiana, USA. I study the dharma from cd's and meditate often. I have no group to talk to about my studies and hope to find refuge with this group. I was not sure how to start my conversation, so I picked this place to start. Sorry for interupting your conversation. I look forward to studing with you daily. #131991 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:54 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha philofillet Dear Alex > > > > The only form of meditation that could possibly exist in this present-moment world would be a single citta with panna - right now - performing the functions of right understanding. > >>>>>>> > > > > Alex: The only possible outcome of fully following this would be to drop like a senseless log of wood because one wouldn't be able to make sense of anything. > Ph: ???? Cittas that understand (make sense of things) or fail to do so are always perforning functions in conditioned processes. A citta falls away and another arises. An idea of a senseless log suggests that you are either pretending not to understand Dhamma (the strawman of the way you misrepresent what people have been telling you for years) or simply don't have cittas tgat understand. No, that is incorrect. . The processes that were functioning when dhammas wrote the post weren't rooted i n understanding but can and does change in a wink of an eye, billions of times in a wink of an eye. There is always hope for cittas rooted in understanding to arise. No senseless logs, always tge potential for understanding now, conditioned by listeing to the Dhamma as explained by the friend in whom citta processes have come to be habitually rooted in understanding. > Why walk if walking is conventional activity that isn't a dhamma, and thus doesn't exist? Why stand? Why try to walk through the door rather than through a wall? How do we distinguish a crosswalk safe to cross and busy crosswalk, red from green light, empty space from car being there??? How respond to this or that stimuli if the response is conventional action which you claim doesn't really exist? > > I suppose that there might be some form or happiness being happy clam that can't distinguish any object... But this is not how Buddha and others behaved. > Ph: The citta processes I described above function to translate(?) realities into conceptual objects of thinking, of course. You must now that despite your insistence on pretending we are saying bash into tge wall instead of choosing the door. The conventionl story goes on. If you seek understanding through understanding of conventional/onceptual objects rather thandeveloping understanding of dhammas, with detachment, that is your choice. The latter doesn't lead to a sense of fast results tge way thinking about being a calm person walking this way or that does, or breathig in this way or that, so it isn't popular. The true Dhamma goes against the ways of th world, whch is why tge Buddha thought not to teach. Phil #131992 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:11 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_025 (DT 912 ) nichiconn dsg, CSCD: {Bhandantaacariya Buddhaghosa's VISUDDHIMAGGO} 1. Siilepati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya.m; Aataapii nipako bhikkhu, so ima.m vija.taye ja.tanti. (sa.m. ni. 1.23); PPn: {~Naanamoli's THE PATH OF PURIFICATION} [1] 'When a wise man, established well in Virtue, Develops Consciousness and Understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i,13). PoP: {PATH OF PURITY - Pe Maung Tin} "The man discreet, on virtue planted firm, In intellect and intuition trained; The brother ardent and discriminant: 'Tis he may from this tangle disembroil." {Kindred Sayings I, 20} Htoo {dsg}: "The wise man dwelling on siila, having hi-drying effort and ripen wisdom when proliferating citta.m and pa~n~naa such a wise man can solve the complexities (entangled knots)."] = c: just some word play/altergloss? siilepatthaaye - inborn siila, triple-rooted (pa~~a~ca), (naro - lion/hero) type of man ... mind and knowledge respectable (bhaavaya), burn by nature (nipako), monk, overome birth. ...and back to our regular program, vism 1: CSCD: Iti hida.m vutta.m, kasmaa paneta.m vutta.m, bhagavanta.m kira saavatthiya.m viharanta.m rattibhaage a~n~nataro devaputto upasa'nkamitvaa attano sa.msayasamugghaa.tattha.m PPn: This was said. But why was it said? While the Blessed One was living at Savatthi, it seems, a certain deity came to him in the night, and in order to do away with his doubts he asked this question: PoP: Thus it was spoken. And why was it spoken? It is said that to the Blessed One then staying at Saavatthi there came one night a certain deva who, in order tho have his doubt removed, asked this question: CSCD: Antoja.taa bahija.taa, ja.taaya ja.titaa pajaa; Ta.m ta.m gotama pucchaami, ko ima.m vija.taye ja.tanti. (sa.m. ni. 1.23) Ima.m pa~nha.m pucchi. PPn: 'The inner tangle and the outer tangle - This generation is entangled in a tangle. And so I ask of Gotama this question: Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle?' (S.i,13). PoP: "Tangle within, without, lo! in the toils Entangled is the race of sentient things. Hence I would ask thee, Gotama, of this: Who is't can from this tangle disembroil?" {KS I, 20} == PPn goes on and numbers a new paragraph at this point, so... to be continued... connie #131993 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:12 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------- <. . .> > H: Ken, I think yours is an excellent post! It is clear and persuasive. -------- KH: Thank you, Howard. A lot of people will disagree with your assessment, however. Therefore, I think any credit for the clarity and persuasiveness of my post should go to you. -------------- > H: My only question with regard to this matter is where you see relations among dhammas fitting in, -------------- KH: I understand "relations among dhammas" to refer to Dependent Origination. The doctrine of D O explains that dhammas arise from a cause, and it explains that the removal of the cause will guarantee non-arising of dhammas in the future. ------------------- > H: and what you consider to be the namic mechanism by which such relations are understood. ------------------- KH: I believe right understanding provides the mechanism for further right understanding. No matter how little of it we have, right understanding of namas and rupas is our most precious resource. Ken H #131994 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:51 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, Alex, and all, > Thomas: According to the SN 12.70 (PTS ii, pp. 119-128), some monks have attained 'liberation' (vimutti) without attaining the meditative concentration: 'calmed emancipations' (santaa vimokkhaa) (= where 'ruupa is transcended and aruupa is attained'). The monks in the Pali text are regarded as the Wisdom-liberated (pa~n~naa-vimutaa) (cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 201-2; [and also p. 128]). So it seems that the so-called Wisdom-liberated [Arahants] do not need to attain a high level of meditative concentration? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Htoo: There are monks when liberated having 'ceto vimutti' or 'panna vimutti' and also there are monks when liberated having 'ubhatobhaaga vimutti'. It is in Mahaa-Nidaana sutta.m of Diigha Nikaaya. ... > Alex: Are you implying Arhatship following Noble Sevenfold Path? When you said "attain a high level of meditative concentration?" it probably means arupa samapatti, right? -------- Thomas: It seems to me the suttas do not make clear which jhaana/dhyaana stage is the minimum required in order to attain the wisdom-liberated (= 'ceto vimutti'/'panna vimutti')? Regards, Thomas #131995 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:10 pm Subject: Palicanon.org ptaus1 Hi all, http://palicanon.org/index.php/abhidhamma-pitaka They now have English translations of Dhammasangani, Atthasalini and Katthavatthu online - it seems it's PTS translations for which the copyright has expired. Best wishes pt #131996 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. > J: Wrong view is a view about the way things are that is not in accordance with the way things in fact are. > > Here, a view means a view that is held, a belief, i.e., not just having an idea based on things heard or read about. Speculating about the way things are would generally fall under the latter category (i.e., not a 'held view'). > > Wrong view may not arise all that much in a day. It may, however, condition ideas of wrong practice. In that sense, if I believe that the path is developed in daily life and therefore choose not to chant, meditate, pray to a buddha, etc, but there is no panna actually arising in such a moment of believing - could there be wrong view in such a moment? I mean, 1) there's the belief that the path is developed in a moment of daily life, 2) but there's no panna at the time, 3) without panna, this is not a kusala moment, so therefore akusala with lobha, 4) notion of a "moment of daily life" thought about at the time is just an idea (concept) equal to other ideas of "chanting", "meditaiton", etc, all concepts. 5) the view of reality at the time is distorted - there's the belief that the path develops in a moment of daily life as opposed to other conceptual activities, and yet, there's no panna at the time for such development to be actually taking place. Thanks Best wishes pt #131997 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:11 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, > Thomas: The term, paramattha dhammas, is the Abhidhamma's invention. (The Buddha did not use the term for his teachings, according to the SN suttas). ------ > N: Invention? Abhidhamma: higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. We find the word abidhamma also in the suttas. ... ------- Thomas: The term, abhidhamma, is not found in the SN suttas (PTS, Pali-English Dictionary, p. 65). The term, paramattha dhammaa (or paramattha), seems also not found in the Vibhanga Abbhidhamma, which its topics bear certain resemblance to the structure of the SN suttas collection (The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 242, 252). The Vibhanga Abbhidhamma is considered to be the oldest in the Abhidhammapitaka (Oskar von Hinuber, A Handbook of the Pali Literature, p. 69). According to the SN suttas, the Buddha did not use the term paramattha dhammaa (or paramattha) for his teachings. Regards, Thomas #131998 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:22 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha kenhowardau Hi Htoo, --------- <. . .> > H: When I sink into Buddha-vandanaa (worshiping the Buddha), just before that activity comes the world as you said. At that time there was nothing but dhamma. -------- KH: I think you are referring to an experience of some kind. That's not exactly what I was talking about. I was asking you to consider an alternative way of understanding the Dhamma. There is a* big* difference between the way you understand the Dhamma and the way certain other, non-meditating, DSG members understand it, isn't there? I think we all understand your way - most of us non-meditators practised meditation in our earlier days, and we still fall into the trap occasionally of thinking we have to *do* something in order to practice satipatthana. So I am just asking you to understand *both* ways, as we do. -------------- > H: Conventional idea then arise when I first see or hear someone whom I have to respond. Otherwise inanimate objects or people whom I do not know are not conventionally seen or heard. ------------- KH: Yes, conventional ideas do occupy most of our daily lives. But in reality there are always only dhammas. There is a Path to nibbana, as taught by the Buddha, but there is never anyone on the path. And there is never anyone who reaches the final goal. At the reaching of the final goal there are only dhammas just like now. Therefore, with that understanding we do not feel inclined to *do* anything in order to *get* anywhere. We just feel inclined to understand the present-moment reality. That's all the Buddha ever taught us to do. Ken H #131999 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:03 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi James > > You may have a point but since jhanas are not a proper pursuit for householders I have no interest in them. James: Okay, well, here you bring up a different issue that is very tricky and slippery. Are jhanas the proper pursuit for householders? I guess it depends on the householder. Nowadays, honestly, I don't see a lot of differences between householders and monks/nuns. You know, the other day I was at the bank in Taiwan and I had to stand in line behind a Buddhist Nun making a cash deposit and withdrawal!! I could hardly settle my stomach. So, right now wouldn't be the best time to differentiate between monks/nuns and householders in my eyes...Umkayyyy. :-)) (I do enjoy the deeply blissful pseudo-jhanas I access through my samatthabation.) James: Is this a play on masturbation? I don't know samatthabation. When it comes to Dhamma I am interested in moments of understanding with detachment. Yes, lots of lobha when listening to A Sujin or discussing or reflecting on paramattha dhammas as well, there is a dome of lobha covering our existence only a few rare openings. When it comes to Dhamma it is those rare openings I'm interested. James: Well, then great. If that is what works for you I say bravo. As long as you approach that path with complete understanding. When it comes to feelgood pop Dhamma gimme gimme gimme my samatthabation and the deep bliss of pseudo jhanas. Beats alcohol, that's for sure James: There is no way that pseudo nonsense beats alcohol or any other drugs. Those drugs are physical based and the bliss of jhana is completely refined consciousness based. It is a hard sell I know- and the Buddha knew that also. and could help to fend off Alzheimer's too... > > Phil > Metta, James ps. Sebastian and I went to HK Disneyland this summer and I wrote to Sarah and Jon to meet us in HK but they were in Australia at that time. In the next year or so Sebastian wants to drag me to Japan Disneyland...it is supposed to be even greater than HK Disneyland. If he wants to go, I go. Are you still in Japan? Do you want to meet us sometime? Let me know off-list.