#132000 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > James: This pleasure of jhana can only be achieved through formal meditation practice. > > c: Is this the same pleasantness he found as a babe? Nice to see you, > c > Hey Connie it is nice to see you also!!! Well, as I remember, he wasn't a babe. He was a young boy of about 10 or 11 years old and he was left under a canopy while his father went hunting (after all- this was the age before game-boy :))). So he got bored with no stimulation and being left alone to himself and he spontaneously went into the first jhana just sitting there. Now, those are some accumulations! Gosh, I wish I was that talented. When I was younger and left alone I always found some stupid trouble to start. :-)) So, the Buddha remembered that moment and how important it was to his path. I think we all have important moments to remember from our childhoods to help us on our individual paths. After all, that is the time after all of us have been reborn. Metta, James #132001 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:14 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? philofillet Hi Colette > > Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala kamma patha, for example, must be some kind of wrong view. Bit there has to be equanimous understanding that akusala has been arising for a hell of a long time and will continue to do so. If we fight against that, it will be a futile exercise of deluded cittas. But we can feel confident that there is more and more understanding, the most valuable kind of kusala. > > colette: Kusala and Akusala ARE NOTHING MORE THAN CHOICES THAT AN INDIVIDUAL MAKES FOR THEMSELVES. I CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS BAD. Even if I do try to tell you what is good and what is bad, my action has nothing to do with YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE DECISION FOR YOURSELF. Ph: well, we can rely on tipikita about what is good or bad, though there are other ways to translate kusala and akusala... Certainly no one else is responsible for our kamma, but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices though of couse dhamma perform that function. Thanks. Phil #132002 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:25 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > > If go through abhidhammaa more than 100,000 dhammas and these cannot be directly seen in real life. > ... > S: We don't have to count dhammas. What appears can be known, first by intellectual right understanding then by direct right understanding. It depends on accumulations as to what dhammas may be known now. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > For me I am not waiting for accumulations. We cannot know how much is accumulated. ... S: No one to wait or not wait. If there are conditions for right understanding to arise now and know what appears, then it arises. That's all. ... >Cuu.lapanthaka seemed poorly accumulated. He did not seem to know as you know now. But he after attaining arahatship could preached dhamma even in front of the Buddha (as the Buddha asked him to do so). .... S: He had accumulated right understanding over countless life-times and had listened to a lot of Abhidhamma detail - so much so when conditions were right, there was sufficient wisdom for arahatship. We cannot tell from the outer appearances. As you often stress, only the Buddha has full knowledge of all asaya-anusaya (tendencies). ... Metta Sarah ======= #132003 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:38 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the Tipitaka or ancient commenteris, no first "call in the mind as 'rising and falling' etc, then the later insturctions you mention. > > S: I think that what matters is what the Buddha taught. There is no reference to concentrating on the abdomen in the ancient Pali texts. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > What Buddha taught was "Ruupa.m, bhikkhave, anicca.m. Yadanicca.m ta.m dukkha.m. Ya.m dukkha.m tadanattaa. Yadanattaa ta.m 'neta.m mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attaa'ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya da.t.thabba.m." " Evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passato citta.m virajjati vimuccati anupaadaaya aasavehi." > > (vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa`nkhaara, vi~naa.na.m) > > Reference: Sa.myutta nikaaya- khandha sa.myutta.m - attadiipa vaggo- anicca sutta.m. > > Here what the Buddha taught was to see anicca first. Seeing anicca accomplishes everything in dhamma. .... S: Yes, this is about the understanding of the khandhas, realities. No mention of 'abdomen'. Each rupa is impermanent and what is impermanent is unsatisfactory and not-self - beyond anyone's control. Without an understanding of rupa now, such as visible object, as distinct from nama now, such as seeing, there will never be the developed understanding of the impermanence of the visible object or other rupa appearing now. So the clear comprehension of the distinction between nama and rupa and the understanding that these are just elements, not self has to develop first. ... > > You might say 'Mahasi is posing to pannatti'. Not like that. Mahasi did not allow in retreat to talk, to read, even to think while doing satipatthaana. ... S: Impossible to stop thinking of pannatti (concepts) by not talking or reading. Equally impossible to "do satipatthana". Whilst there is an idea of someone 'doing' anything, it's not understanding and there will never be conditions for satipatthana to develop. The right intellectual understanding has to be about conditioned dhammas, not self - what is appearing now naturally, no matter the circumstances. ... >If someone sees in timeline rising and falling abdomen > this is concentrating on body(so call body in world). The Buddha taught to concentrate on this 6-feet body and there is dhamma. Seeing what happen in body will at a time let seen what is real. .... S: I disagree. The Buddha taught the understanding of those dhammas taken (wrongly) for a body. Concentrating or focussing in order to develop understanding will just lead to more wrong concentration, more wrong view about self and body. ... Metta Sarah ===== #132004 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > In light of recent discussions on lobha and ditthi, I was wondering lately regarding thinking and discussing Dhamma. > > While there can certainly be kusala pariyatti moments on such occasions - so moments when panna arises in the midst of all the thinking, still, these moments are likely to be rare, I take it. So, then, most of the other moments of thinking and discussing Dhamma are likely to be akusala. In that sense, I take it there would be a lot of moments of lobha. But, that's just lobha, so to speak. > > More importantly, there could also be moments of lobha and ditthi. I take it this could happen even if the thinking is "correct", i.e. there's an intellectual belief in kamma, in anatta, in conditionality, parramattha dhammas, etc, but all this still wouldn't preclude the arising of ditthi when there's thinking about these things. > > In that regard, how would a moment of lobha and ditthi differ from a moment of just lobha - when thinking about Dhamma? .... S: For example, whilst thinking about kamma, if there's an idea about it being 'my' kamma or results or an idea of results in terms of situations rather than dhammas. If th pariyatti, intellectual understanding is 'right', however, then no lobha or ditthi at such moments. Cittas and all dhammas change so quickly - impossible to pinpoint when another speaks or writes, but panna, right understanding can gradually become more familiar with the characteristics of lobha and ditthi when they arise. Like now, there may be an idea that a computer rather than visible object is really seen, different from moments of just moha or lobha as usual. ... > > For example, would it have to do with speculative (intellectual) view that only this is right and everything else is wrong even though there's no actual panna that would know this first-hand? .... S: It may be just thinking - wisely or unwisely depending on whether it's the Truth or not. ... > > Would it have to do with speculating on the subject without panna actually knowing these things at the time - e.g. speculating about eye-sense being anatta, without actual panna ever having known eye-sense directly? Thanks .... S: Again, it may be thinking wisely or unwisely with a little panna or with doubt and ignorance. Only panna can know! If we try to 'catch' it or work it out, then for sure it's not panna, but lobha at work. Metta Sarah ====== #132005 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:57 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:When there is understanding of nama or rupa now, samma samadhi is >there already. No need to *do* anything. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >A: Samma-samadhi is frequently described as 4 Jhanas. If that sort of understanding is Jhana as part of samma-samadhi which is part of N8P, then it is correct. ... S: Samma samadhi of the N8P is equivalent to the strength of one of the jhanas at moments of enlightenment. We are talking about the understanding of dhammas now. If there is right understanding of any reality now, even at the level of pariyatti (right intellectual understanding), then the concentration is 'right' already. ... > > >S:If there is an idea of "building up the power of concentration" ??>it'll be bound to be akusala samadhi accompanying lobha, wishing to >have such power. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Still great. Lobha for Dhamma can lead to Anagami stage. ...... S: If it were just a matter of pursuing lobha, lobha would be a path factor. It's not. It's the cause of dukkha, the cause of endless life in samsara. ... > > Do you propose that lobha for expensive clothing, jewelry, cars, travel, etc to be better than this evil lobha for Jhana? ... S: Lobha with wrong view is the most dangerous lobha. So if there is an idea that attaining clothing, jewelry or jhana is the way to become enlightened and there's an idea of self that can and should 'do' or follow this route, then it's very harmful. This is why most the wrong views given in detail in the Brahmajala sutta and its commentaries pertain to pursuit and attainment of jhanas. .... > > Is instructions after instructions saying how samma-samadhi is required is wrong? ... S: Samma samadhi and samma ditthi condition each other and arise together. Without right understanding it'll never be known what samma samadhi is. Metta Sarah ====== #132006 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) jonoabb Hi pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for your reply. > > > J: Wrong view is a view about the way things are that is not in accordance with the way things in fact are. > > > > Here, a view means a view that is held, a belief, i.e., not just having an idea based on things heard or read about. Speculating about the way things are would generally fall under the latter category (i.e., not a 'held view'). > > > > Wrong view may not arise all that much in a day. It may, however, condition ideas of wrong practice. > > > pt: In that sense, if I believe that the path is developed in daily life and therefore choose not to chant, meditate, pray to a buddha, etc, but there is no panna actually arising in such a moment of believing - could there be wrong view in such a moment? > > I mean, > > 1) there's the belief that the path is developed in a moment of daily life, > > 2) but there's no panna at the time, > > 3) without panna, this is not a kusala moment, so therefore akusala with lobha, > > 4) notion of a "moment of daily life" thought about at the time is just an idea (concept) equal to other ideas of "chanting", "meditaiton", etc, all concepts. > > 5) the view of reality at the time is distorted - there's the belief that the path develops in a moment of daily life as opposed to other conceptual activities, and yet, there's no panna at the time for such development to be actually taking place. > =============== J: Following on from what I said in my previous post, I think your (1) ("the belief that the path is developed in a moment of daily life") is likely to be thinking based on things heard and considered and not a deeply held belief. So we are talking about an idea that comes to mind. Just thinking with or without attachment. When studying the dhamma and considering what we have heard, there's no need to be apprehensive about moments of wrong view, or any other akusala for that matter, that might also arise. Nobody is saying there can be only right view or kusala all the time. The 'danger zone', if there is one, is wrong practice, for that leads in totally the wrong direction. Wrong practice means, as I understand it, doing something *as a practice* that is to say, with the idea that the doing of the act/activity will conduce to more awareness or other kusala. And that something could include, in addition to the more obvious activities that are mentioned here from time to time, reading texts or listening to recorded talks or directed reflection on a specific topic; anything at all is capable of being taken wrongly and done as a 'practice'. Jon #132007 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > For vipassanaa 5 precepts(pa~nca-siila), or 8 precepts (a.t,tha`nga-sammannaagata.m-siila) or ascetic-8 precepts or aajiiva.t.thamaka-siila should be built. If simple 5 precepts is used it has to be sex-free siila. These are for lay people. ... S: Does this mean that all the lay people who became enlightened in the time of the Buddha, such as the female disciple, Visakkha, did not really develop any insight or vipassana nanas? Metta Sarah ===== #132008 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? sarahprocter... Dear Connie (& Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Sarah: ... When kamma ceases to produce rupas, i..e when there are no more cittas of this lifespan (cuti citta), there is no more body/being, just a corpse. > > c: the corpse/body rupas with heat to the rescue - err, rot. why, it's a miracle! one rupa, one instant of arising. 49 of decay. one of falling/death. Continuity at it's best, ... S: Yes, just like a log of wood - just rupas conditioned by temperature rotting away at each instant. No more life-faculty. Metta Sarah p.s good to see you popping in! ==== #132009 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:15 pm Subject: Re: G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma sarahprocter... Dear Bogor group & Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > There Re two question on whether someone that under alcohol influence or dream to do a matricide or patricide is considered as garuka kamma or not. > > > > c: What is done in a dream is thinking only, so the consequences are different from when the same kinds of things are done in waking life. The monk is not required to disrobe because of dream acts that would defeat him in waking life. The dream stuff is not a/kusala kamma patha. ... S: Right.... dreams just thinking, not kamma patha. On the other hand, such killing under the influence of alcohol is the full act and ignorance (under the influence) doesn't lessen the deed, quite the contrary. Metta Sarah ===== #132010 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:20 pm Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: You may find it interesting to read a sutta in which the passage appears. Here's a link to a translation of the Upaali Sutta (M.56) (the relevant passage appears about half way through): > > http://www.vipassana.info/056-upali-e1.htm > > > > Let me know what you think! > > RE: I think it's an extremely intense sutta, with which I was not familiar previously. It's a great story, isn't it? I especially enjoyed the deluded teacher vomiting blood at the end - that's a fairly extreme reaction to the Dhamma, is it not? > > The sutta makes a point probably more important than the one we're discussing, that cetana is more important than speech or action. That seems to go in the opposite direction of the idea that cetana expressed in action is more significant than cetana deferred, but perhaps I am just confused. > =============== J: Not sure which part of the sutta you have in mind here. Would you mind quoting or giving a reference -- thanks. > =============== > RE: As for the context of the "gradual teaching," I don't really get the connection - I mean, it's kind of a context, but not much of one. :-) How do you interpret the context? > =============== J: What you see in that paragraph, and the events described in the sutta, is all we have. The relevant events, in brief, are that (a) Upaali, a layperson, was a follower of another teacher (i.e., he had had no exposure to the teachings in that lifetime) (b) Upaali was impressed with the Buddha's words when he met him and declared himself a follower (c) the Buddha could see that Upaali was capable of attaining enlightenment and (d) to prepare Upaali's mind to receive a teaching on the 4NT, the Buddha explained to him the different levels of kusala in ascending order. To us it may seem that the gradual teaching is a fairly simple statement of the obvious, and we may wonder how it could prepare a person's mind for hearing a statement of the 4NT. We may also wonder how simply hearing an explanation of the 4NT could result in immediate enlightenment. But that just goes to show that our presently held views on what the development of the path involves are not in line with the teachings themselves. Upaali went from wrong practice (with the Jains) to enlightenment in the space of a short afternoon, on the basis of a single discussion with the Buddha and receiving a teaching on the 4NT. There was no period of 'practice' involved, and no jhana. This helps to illustrate the significance of previously accumulated understanding. When a person with highly developed panna hears a discourse from the Buddha, he/she is able to follow it at a level that we cannot even imagine. The monks in the Buddha's time, who were born at that time because of the previous good kamma that is moments of highly developed panna, did not need to hear the teaching at the level of detail that is explained in the commentaries and sub-commentaries. Jon #132011 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:27 pm Subject: Re: A Challenge - KH/Thomas sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Htoo: > > Dear Connie, I know what you mean in this matter. Two cittas cannot arise together. > > But the sound of "explosion" is heard by many many many cittas at the very same time. .... S: Conventionally speaking only.... > > There is no being, there is no jiiva, there is no atta. .... S: Good to agree on this important point! Perhaps you can explain to Alex why there is no being etc. Metta Sarah ===== #132012 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:34 pm Subject: Re: Rupas of the body cannot arise without citta? sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > >P: I read on p.30 of SPD the above, "rupas of the body cannot arise without citta." I can understand that is true about pasada rupas but aren't there "rupas of the body" that are not pasada rupas and therefore can arise without citta? > > ... > > > > S: I think it means that kamma produces these and other rupas throughout life from the first moment (patisandhi citta). When kamma ceases to produce rupas, i..e when there are no more cittas of this lifespan (cuti citta), there is no more body/being, just a corpse. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Sarah, Phil and all, > > I think this is not complete. > If there is no more kamma then there is no more kammaja-ruupa or kammogenic ruupa. But there can still be cittaja-ruupa or citta-generated ruupa. > > At the time of cuti there is last moment of kammaja-ruupa. After death the corpse still has cittaja-ruupa for about 49 mini-cittakkha.nas. ... S: Thanks for this detail. metta Sarah ==== #132013 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:56 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha philofillet Hi Janes Back home after a long day so I'll just say I call them pseudo jhanasfir exactly tge reason yoy pount out. I don't know about orher jhana pusher but Ajahn Lee, who method I yse via TB, teachesa methid that is based on tapping into"breatg nergiy" in the body, which is not breath as taughr in tpitika but is rarher tapping Into ki (chi) , those currents of energy tgat are very real but also physiological. His methid is superb for gettung deep inti blissful states through acessing and manipulsting these energies but anyone wuth half a brain should be able to see it is not jhanas as taught by tge Buddha. Becayse of the physiological aspect I can say yes, better than alcohol. Yes, sammatabatiion is my coined phrase based on masturbation, anotger pleasant thing to do in a room by oneself with cittas rooted in lobha what passes formeditation in this day and ae is all rooted in greed for pleasant mind states, and If that is a silly overstatement, so be it. Over and out on this for me. James. Nice to see you again. Phil #132014 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:12 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha philofillet Hi again James Sorry fot the gibberish in the previous post. Too tired to tap out messages on the phone.. Should have waited untl tomorrow. Phil #132015 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:27 pm Subject: Re: New group member, jonoabb Hi Cristina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "quietstormjazz63" wrote: > > Hello, My name is Cristina, I live in Louisiana, USA. I study the dharma from cd's and meditate often. I have no group to talk to about my studies and hope to find refuge with this group. I was not sure how to start my conversation, so I picked this place to start. Sorry for interupting your conversation. I look forward to studing with you daily. > =============== J: Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for introducing yourself. We hope you will make yourself at home here. Please feel free to ask any question, or join in any thread, you feel inclined to. We like to encourage each other's interest. Jon #132016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha nilovg Dear Htoo, Op 25 jul 2013, om 19:21 heeft htoonaing@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > Anyway when solving problems at work 'dosa' and 'dislike' appear less and less. They hardly come up to the surface. ----- N: Thank you for your additional info how you manage all. You said before that you try to calm down others when they have dosa. Very good, anumodana. We like to help, but if the conditions are not right we cannot help others. Then upekkhaa is best. Everyone will receive the result of his kamma. Nina. #132017 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha philofillet Dear Nina (Htoo) > You said before that you try to calm down others when they have dosa. Very good, anumodana. Ph: Sorry but I can't agree with this, unless what Htoo meant is that he notes a tendency, accumukations, to try to calm down people. I have to raise this protest, because if there is a stated policy in life to try to do this or that, it will be a distorted practice of trying to be the good and helpful person. And often it can be conditioned by our own dosa in response to othrs' rough behaviour. We really cannot praise that because it indictes belief in our ability to have a dominant influence on the cittas of other. But if it happens good, , and if it happens often great, and if happens as our clear tendency, even better > We like to help, but if the conditions are not right we cannot help others. Then upekkhaa is best. Everyone will receive the result of his kamma. Ph: I think this is best. There is no reason to believe that conditions will often be right for our intervention to help a person with a lot of dosa. Of course the point is the cittas that seek to help, not whether the help is received or not. If helping cittas arise, all the better. But if we are trying, it could be self at work, with mana about being the good person. Too picky? I don't think so.. Phil #132018 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:27 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_025 (DT 912 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: dsg, CSCD: {Bhandantaacariya Buddhaghosa's VISUDDHIMAGGO} 1. Siilepati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya.m; Aataapii nipako bhikkhu, so ima.m vija.taye ja.tanti. (sa.m. ni. 1.23); == PPn goes on and numbers a new paragraph at this point, so... to be continued... connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, Thanks for your post. I will be following. My current posts (V-X DT-X) are on vipassanaa. As it approaches siila, I just quoted VM (Visuddhi-Magga). Because of defect in siila a good monk died of vinaya-kukkucca (repent on breach of vinaya-siila). Because of siila some monks escalated to arahatship. Purity or siila --> paamojja --> piiti --> passaddhi --> samaadhi --> yathaabhuuta-nana --> namarupavavatthana-nana --> paccayapariggaha-nana --> sammasan-nana --> udayabbaya-nana ....magga With Metta, Htoo Naing #132019 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:39 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - Thanks for your reply! :-) With metta, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > -------- > <. . .> > > H: Ken, I think yours is an excellent post! It is clear and persuasive. > -------- > > KH: Thank you, Howard. A lot of people will disagree with your assessment, however. Therefore, I think any credit for the clarity and persuasiveness of my post should go to you. > > -------------- > > H: My only question with regard to this matter is where you see relations among dhammas fitting in, > -------------- > > KH: I understand "relations among dhammas" to refer to Dependent Origination. The doctrine of D O explains that dhammas arise from a cause, and it explains that the removal of the cause will guarantee non-arising of dhammas in the future. > > ------------------- > > H: and what you consider to be the namic mechanism by which such relations are understood. > ------------------- > > KH: I believe right understanding provides the mechanism for further right understanding. No matter how little of it we have, right understanding of namas and rupas is our most precious resource. > > Ken H > #132020 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:53 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... Ken H: Hi Htoo, > > --------- > <. . .> > > H: When I sink into Buddha-vandanaa (worshiping the Buddha), just before that activity comes the world as you said. At that time there was nothing but dhamma. > -------- > > KH: I think you are referring to an experience of some kind. That's not exactly what I was talking about. I was asking you to consider an alternative way of understanding the Dhamma. > > There is a* big* difference between the way you understand the Dhamma and the way certain other, non-meditating, DSG members understand it, isn't there? > > I think we all understand your way - most of us non-meditators practised meditation in our earlier days, and we still fall into the trap occasionally of thinking we have to *do* something in order to practice satipatthana. So I am just asking you to understand *both* ways, as we do. > > -------------- > > H: Conventional idea then arise when I first see or hear someone whom I have to respond. Otherwise inanimate objects or people whom I do not know are not conventionally seen or heard. > ------------- > > KH: Yes, conventional ideas do occupy most of our daily lives. > > But in reality there are always only dhammas. There is a Path to nibbana, as taught by the Buddha, but there is never anyone on the path. And there is never anyone who reaches the final goal. > > At the reaching of the final goal there are only dhammas – just like now. > > Therefore, with that understanding we do not feel inclined to *do* anything in order to *get* anywhere. We just feel inclined to understand the present-moment reality. That's all the Buddha ever taught us to do. > > Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Ken H, thanks for your explanation. I know what you mean. In Myanmar there are some traditions of vipassana teaching to see 'the very present moment'. I am considering on how many people from DSG is on 'the very present moment' all the time. I think they do only at the time of thinking on dhamma. The practice does require. I am not looking for agreement. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132021 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:23 am Subject: Re: New group member, nichiconn hi Cristina, > I study the dharma from cd's and meditate often. you'll see a rather unpopular 'get off your butt' approach here; not that reading and cd's aren't great or a cushion isn't nice but "dhamma isn't in the book". i hope you like it. the conversations can seem unpleasant, but that'll be your problem - there's a lot to be said for saw blades. > I have no group to talk to about my studies we tend to forget we're each ever really only alone... also that friendship is the greatest. nice to meet you, connie #132022 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:53 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_025 (DT 912 ) nichiconn dsg, continuing on like bamboo in a strawman free zone - or is it? - > Who is't can from this tangle disembroil?" {KS I, 20} > > == CSCD: Tassaaya.m sa'nkhepattho – ja.taati ta.nhaaya jaaliniyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. PPn: 2. Here is the meaning in brief. Tangle is a term for the network of craving. PoP: And this briefly is the meaning. By "tangle" is meant the net of craving. CSCD: Saa hi ruupaadiisu aaramma.nesu he.t.thupariyavasena punappuna.m uppajjanato sa.msibbana.t.thena ve.lugumbaadiina.m saakhaajaalasa'nkhaataa ja.taa viyaati ja.taa, PPn: For that is a tangle in the sense of lacing together, like the tangle called network of branches in bamboo thickets, etc., because it goes on arising again and again up and down {1} among the objects [of consciousness] beginning with what is visible. {1}. From a visible datum sometimes as far down as a mental datum, or vice versa, following the order of the six kinds of objects of consciousness as given in the teaching (Pm.5, see Ch.XV,§1). PoP: For craving is like the tangle of the network of branches of bamboo-bushes {Read ve.lugumbaja.taadiihi.} and the like, in the sense of an intertwisting, because it arises below and above repeatedly in connection with such objects as visible things. CSCD: saa panesaa sakaparikkhaaraparaparikkhaaresu saka-attabhaavapara-attabhaavesu ajjhattikaayatanabaahiraayatanesu ca uppajjanato antoja.taa bahija.taati vuccati. PPn: But it is called the inner tangle and the outer tangle because it arises [as craving] for one's own requisites and another's, for one's own person and another's, and for the internal and external bases [for consciousness]. PoP: And it is said to be "Tangle within, without," from the fact of its arising within one's own and others' individualities and what thereto appertains, in the organs subjective and objective. CSCD: Taaya eva.m uppajjamaanaaya ja.taaya ja.titaa pajaa. PPn: Since it arises in this way, this generation is entangled in a tangle. PoP: Mankind is entangled in such a tangle. --vsm 1 to be continued, connie #132023 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:32 am Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) philofillet Dear Group I repost this excellent passage from SPD: "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > (end of passage) A small question. In the book, the last sentence is "kaaya **and** vinnati ruupa does not arise." Is this a misprint or did I mistype above, omitting the "and." Is there vinnati rupa distinct from kayavinnati rupa? Not vitally important perhaps kayavinnati ruupa and vacivinnati ruupa are fascinating, I find. Why do we grimace, why do we speak? Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Group > > Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: > > "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > (end of passage) > > Phil > #132024 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:45 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha nichiconn dear James, so the stories go! one's a babe at plowing festival time and ... next thing you wonder, if the sun (shade canopy) really did stand still that day how long did the archers go on splitting hairs? with a baby, tho, we don't wonder why the lad wasn't participating... just what happened to the nursemaids when it came out they'd been napping? i get my stories mixed up anyway... i think it was a mahayana source that had our 16 year old hero winning the hand of Rahulamata against the likes of Devadatta in those sort of - olympics? shades of robin hood! next thing you know, people will be calling the maharishis buddhist. if you make it over, kick phil's ass. figuratively. doper insights are a nickel a bag. and not worth it at any price. speaking of moments past - and maharishis. live without regret, connie #132025 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:19 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_025 (DT 912 ) nichiconn dear Htoo, I just thought i recognized what you were quoting and thought some might be interested in seeing it... only thru the first part of the VM intro. peace, connie > > Purity or siila --> paamojja --> piiti --> passaddhi --> samaadhi > --> yathaabhuuta-nana --> namarupavavatthana-nana --> paccayapariggaha-nana --> sammasan-nana --> udayabbaya-nana ....magga #132026 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:35 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: In the dhamma sense, the term 'condition/ed' has a particular meaning. Not all conditions 'come before' that which is conditioned; some co-arise with, or even arise after, the conditioned dhamma. > > > > RE: Thanks, Jon. The latter is intriguing. How can something arise after to condition what has come before? ... > In her writing 'The Conditionality Of Life', Nina explains it as follows: > "[C]itta and its accompanying cetasikas support the ruupas of the body which have arisen previously and have not fallen away yet. [T]hese ruupas have arisen already prior to the citta; it supports and consolidates these ruupas which are still present, since ruupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta." Well, this explanation actually makes a lot of sense. It's not as if the conditions that support something after it comes into existence somehow work backwards through time to create it before they were there. They are supporting, rather than determining, conditions, and they support the continued existence of the rupas so that they last longer. This is not a case of something arising to create something after it is already there. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #132027 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear all, --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > ... > Ken H: ... in reality there are always only dhammas ... he present-moment reality ... > Htoo: ... some traditions of vipassana teaching to see 'the very present moment'. ... thinking on dhamma. ... ------- Thomas: I think "to see the very present moment and thinking on dhamma" are apparently not the same notion as "in reality there are always only dhammas, the present-moment reality."? I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are always only dhammas, the present-moment reality"? But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees (passati) and knows (jaanaati) the bodily and mental phenomena `dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as `anicca, dukkha, anatta', as `the four truths', as `the middle way', and as `pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa'. Regards, Thomas #132028 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Anyways, back to the above question. Isn't lobha with ditthi what is at work when we want to speed up development of understanding rather than just lobha? So when A Sujin says "the shortcut is lobha" doesn't she really mean " the shortcut is lobha with ditthi?" ... S: Yes, an idea of self is there when one tries to speed up awareness or understanding or thinks that focussing on particular objects or going to another place is the way. Metta Sarah ==== #132029 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) nilovg Dear Phil, Kaaya vi~n`~natti ruupa indicates the ruupa that is the instrument in conveying a meaning through the body, like gestures. Different from conveyance through speech. Nina. Op 27 jul 2013, om 01:32 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > A small question. In the book, the last sentence is "kaaya **and** vinnati ruupa does not arise." Is this a misprint or did I mistype above, omitting the "and." Is there vinnati rupa distinct from kayavinnati rupa? #132030 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:01 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, Always good to read your comments and quotes from discussions in Thailand. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > "There can be Chanda to aversion." ... S: Yes, this is interesting. There can be unwholesome chanda (interest) with aversion about aversion. There can also be chanda with attachment to aversion - enjoyment and interest in the anger just fallen away. There can also be wholesome chanda with understanding of the aversion - just a dhamma after all! ... > "One studies dhamma and can remember 89 Cittas. It is sanna (remembrance) but it is atta sanna not anatta sanna. Anatta sanna remembers characteristic of realities which arise and fall away all the time not us nor ours." ... S: This one's interesting too. One may think that learning and memorising the Abhidhamma details is pariyatti or intellectual right understanding, but it's not. It is not the understanding of the present reality. Why does one try to remember the details? Who is it for? This doesn't mean it's not helpful to read and reflect on such details, but it's only helpful when it's for the understanding of dhammas as anatta, not for a collection of details for self. Metta Sarah p.s Look forward to seeing you in Thailand - Bkk & KK 24th-29th Aug ======= #132031 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:23 pm Subject: Re: T.A. in Bgk, on Sunday. on chanda as road to power. sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit & Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Ph: Hmm, it seems to me that if the topic is very interesting lobha would be more intense too. So really only a stronger degree of panna could know. > > JK: I just made a presumption that cittas while discussing dhamma should be kusala. But you are right sometime they are lobhas with ditthi or mana. In this case, it is difficult to detect unless, as you said, panna is strong enough. > > There are words in Vanchakka Dhammas 38 (deceiving dhammas). One clause mentions that desire in confabulation deceives as delight in dhamma discussion. ... S: Yes, I think Phil makes a good point. As soon as we assume that all cittas must be kusala in a given situation, it's just wishful thinking, not understanding at all. During a dhamma discussion there is bound to be a lot of attachment or conceit or even wrong view with akusala chanda, a lot of ignorance, even dosa such as worry or anxiety or distraction of one kind or another. It's like the point discussed about piti (joy) - people often assume that the happy feeling they experience whilst discussing dhamma or whilst visiting the Holy Places must be kusala piti, but it's just thinking about piti, not understanding its characteristic. Always good to be reminded of the cheating dhammas (vancakka dhammas). We had long discussions before on these after a friend, Gayan, brought them to everyone's attention. They can be found in Useful Posts under "Cheating (vancakka) dhammas". Metta Sarah ===== #132032 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:31 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... Sarah: Dear Htoo, >Cuu.lapanthaka seemed poorly accumulated. He did not seem to know as you know now. But he after attaining arahatship could preached dhamma even in front of the Buddha (as the Buddha asked him to do so). .... S: He had accumulated right understanding over countless life-times and had listened to a lot of Abhidhamma detail - so much so when conditions were right, there was sufficient wisdom for arahatship. We cannot tell from the outer appearances. As you often stress, only the Buddha has full knowledge of all asaya-anusaya (tendencies). ... Metta Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Unseen accumulations. If you were in place of Mahaa-Panthaka, the brother of Cuu.la-Panthaka who attained 8 jhaanas and got etadagga in aruupa-jhaana you would have said "Hi! Cuulapanthaka, you do not have enough accumulations. Dhamma have to be studied for a long long time so that it becomes accumulated. You do not "do the practice"". With Metta, Htoo Naing #132033 From: "kuwrk" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:43 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. kuwrk dear Htoo wasnt the practice in this case rubbing a cloth are there schools in myanmar that instruct students to rub a cloth robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: <...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Unseen accumulations. > > If you were in place of Mahaa-Panthaka, the brother of Cuu.la-Panthaka who attained 8 jhaanas and got etadagga in aruupa-jhaana you would have said "Hi! Cuulapanthaka, you do not have enough accumulations. Dhamma have to be studied for a long long time so that it becomes accumulated. You do not "do the practice"". <...> #132034 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:29 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... dear Htoo wasnt the practice in this case rubbing a cloth are there schools in myanmar that instruct students to rub a cloth robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Dear Robert, thanks for your question. Here are DSG there are Roberts. Rob K, Rob M .... How can I address you 'Robert'? I do not have much infomation on samatha schools in Myanmar. There are almost 100% vipassana schools and some instruct in English. Rubbing a cloth is not samatha. The Buddha taught Cuu.lapanthaka (Mr Road Junior_ because he was born on the road after his elder brother birth) to recognize "the change" from white to dirty one. I found a samatha school in Myanmar. There are lay people both men and women and also some nuns studying samatha. I do not recommend simple samatha. Samatha has to be the platform for vipassana (Yuganaddha sutta.m). In that school pupils are taught samatha based on many kamma.t.thaana. Some attain the power of seeing covered thing and some of seeing future. But the school does not teach to rub a cloth. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132035 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) philofillet Dear Nina Thank you. But I was wondering why in the book it says "kaaya and vinnati rupa" instea of "kayavinnati rupa", it makes it sound as if there is a ruupa that is "vinatti" with its own characteristics, but it's not important. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Kaaya vi~n`~natti ruupa indicates the ruupa that is the instrument in conveying a meaning through the body, like gestures. Different from conveyance through speech. > Nina. > Op 27 jul 2013, om 01:32 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > A small question. In the book, the last sentence is "kaaya **and** vinnati ruupa does not arise." Is this a misprint or did I mistype above, omitting the "and." Is there vinnati rupa distinct from kayavinnati rupa? > > > #132036 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:31 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... Sarah: Dear Htoo, > S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the Tipitaka or ancient commenteris, no first "call in the mind as 'rising and falling' etc, then the later insturctions you mention. > S: I think that what matters is what the Buddha taught. There is no reference to concentrating on the abdomen in the ancient Pali texts. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: (new discussion) The Buddha teachings were recited repeatedly verbally/orally. Teachings are all in the texts of tipi.taka. It was first arranged by early sa.mghaa elderly ones. So it is called Thera (Elderly). Vadati = to speak. Theravaada was agreed by Mahaa-kassapa, Upaali, Aanandaa and other pa.tisambhidaa-patta, sa.laabhi~n~naa, tipi.takadhara arahats in total 500 monks who were all in the Buddha time monks. Threads or sutta is to bind flowers of dhammas which the Buddha taught in many areas for 45 years. After mahaaparinibbaana (passing away of the Buddha) dhammas (the speeches of the Buddha) were in random. All dhammas were recited and agreed to put into three baskets as tipi.taka. Only the Buddha used a small piece of dhamma if it worked. For follower monks especially in these days have to study extensively. You cannot quote a single sentence to confirm what you learnt are right. You cannot say this is right and that is wrong without the knowledge of tipi.taka in detail both in terms or original Paa.li, original A.t.thakathaa in Paa.li or Maagadhii, and in some cases .Tiikaa in Paa.li or Maagadhii. Let alone tipi.taka you cannot recite Abhidhamma pi.taka in Paa.li and its full meaning in detail. Let alone Abhidhamma in whole you cannot recite Kathaavatthu in Paa.li and understand all in detail. Those pass to the west are Dhamma Pada, Nikaayas and some part of abhidhamma. Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha and visuddhimagga are later writings by later monks 900 years after the Buddha. Most quote from those abhidhammatthasa`ngaha and visuddhimagga. These two are just a small part in Buddha teachings. While I am writing this I do not mean I know everything or I do not mean I know all tipitaka, all Paa.li, all A.t.thakathaa, all .Tiikaa, all anu.tiika, all madhutiikaa, all ga.n.thi, all nissayas. Just reading, listening, understanding in mind with self-satisfaction are not enough to know dhamma in real. Reality in present moment is taught in Myanmar. Dhammas are taught in Myanmar. Dhammas are discussed in Myanmar. Dhammas are practiced in Myanmar. Practice has come among lay people since Ledi Sayadaw's time. Before that there were only countable lay people who practiced dhamma and came to know all angles of dhamma after passing a point when practising. Those who did not know any of tipitaka became a wise one and could discussed with tipitaka monks. Even some were illiterate. They could discuss well with those who were taught formally in Theravadan Schools of Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > What Buddha taught was "Ruupa.m, bhikkhave, anicca.m. Yadanicca.m ta.m dukkha.m. Ya.m dukkha.m tadanattaa. Yadanattaa ta.m 'neta.m mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attaa'ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya da.t.thabba.m." " Evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passato citta.m virajjati vimuccati anupaadaaya aasavehi." > > (vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa`nkhaara, vi~naa.na.m) > > Reference: Sa.myutta nikaaya- khandha sa.myutta.m - attadiipa vaggo- anicca sutta.m. > > Here what the Buddha taught was to see anicca first. Seeing anicca accomplishes everything in dhamma. .... S: Yes, this is about the understanding of the khandhas, realities. No mention of 'abdomen'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Abdomen is a word. Not Dhamma. If this is known you do not need to look for "abdomen" in tipitaka. Abdomen does not matter when dhammas are clearly seen and known. If 'unlikeness' arises and you do not recognize it and you go deep in thinking then this will lead you dhammuddhacca and to the worst this will lead you even to akusala. Here I just put "anicca" but you do not mention in your discussion about anicca. Anatta is more than 'non-self'. If anicca is not known anatta cannot be understand. If you say you understand then this affirmation is fake-anatta. Theoretical understanding on anatta, the power to discuss fluently on dhamma, and the package of all knowledge as theory without practice is like the fish 'staying in ocean without ever reaching land' whereas the turtle reaches land. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: > Each rupa is impermanent and what is impermanent is unsatisfactory and not-self - beyond anyone's control. > Without an understanding of rupa now, such as visible object, as distinct from nama now, such as seeing, there will never be the developed understanding of the impermanence of the visible object or other rupa appearing now. So the clear comprehension of the distinction between nama and rupa and the understanding that these are just elements, not self has to develop first. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is easy to say 'now'. But there are only a faw who would know that present moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > > You might say 'Mahasi is posing to pannatti'. Not like that. Mahasi did not allow in retreat to talk, to read, even to think while doing satipatthaana. ... S: Impossible to stop thinking of pannatti (concepts) by not talking or reading. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is premature decision on situation. I did not say "stop thinking of pannatti". Please see above again. I did say " not to talk, not to read, not to even think during THE RETREAT. 'Think' here I mean "endless day-dreaming on anything". Because if these are done then the students of dhamma will not be at the very present moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Equally impossible to "do satipatthana". Whilst there is an idea of someone 'doing' anything, it's not understanding and there will never be conditions for satipatthana to develop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please study on upadaana, clinging. You seem theoretically calculating on dhamma and trying to work out to have the solution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: > The right intellectual understanding has to be about conditioned dhammas, not self - what is appearing now naturally, no matter the circumstances. > ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :) :) :) First deal with anicca. Self is not enough when dealing with dhamma. Even the Buddha used the term self. Without understanding on anicca it is futile to study dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > >If someone sees in timeline rising and falling abdomen > > this is concentrating on body(so call body in world). The Buddha taught to concentrate on this 6-feet body and there is dhamma. Seeing what happen in body will at a time let seen what is real. .... S: I disagree. The Buddha taught the understanding of those dhammas taken (wrongly) for a body. Concentrating or focussing in order to develop understanding will just lead to more wrong concentration, more wrong view about self and body. ... Metta Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is your part. You can freely disagree. The Buddha taught to search dhamma ONLY in self not outside. The 7th arahat in the Buddha's saasanaa was Yasa, the rich man. This was followed by 55 friends of Yasa to became arahats. Next batch was Baddavatii thirty brothers. 29 had own wives while one did not have wife. So he hired a prostitute and they enter a forest for sensual pleasure. But the prostitute store their belongings. They searched for that woman. Finally found the Buddha. The Buddha asked them what they were doing. They answered they were searching for a woman who store their belongings. Here the Buddha advised to search self rather than others. They all became arahats. Atta has many meanings. You yourself try to see what are happening in your body ( :) including the head) at the very present moment. With Metta, Friend in Dhamma, Htoo Naing #132037 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:39 pm Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and all)- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > Dear Group > > I repost this excellent passage from SPD: > > "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, > kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > > > (end of passage) > > A small question. In the book, the last sentence is "kaaya **and** vinnati ruupa does not arise." Is this a misprint or did I mistype above, omitting the "and." Is there vinnati rupa distinct from kayavinnati rupa? Not vitally important perhaps kayavinnati ruupa and vacivinnati ruupa are fascinating, I find. Why do we grimace, why do we speak? > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Group > > > > Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: > > > > "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > > > (end of passage) > > > > Phil > > > ================================ How is the following not presenting citta as an actor, desirer, and self? If someone on DSG were to write "When a person wants to display a sign expressing ... The person may convey his/her intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or ...If a person does not wish to display his/her intention, ...," would he/she not be condemned for expressing atta-view and probably being one of those sorry folks addicted to rite & ritual, and maybe even, Buddha forbid, a meditator?! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132038 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:04 pm Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) philofillet Hi Howard Personally I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of citta as little actor or little self or whatever you and others call it. It's still completely impersonal, pecorming functions. You can call 'em little roots, or little processors, or little Russians in overcoats, spying on us, I don't care. I take Abhidhamma as a model of reality, taugh by the Buddha and elucidated by arahants for the purpose of our liberatiin. I shudder at the thought of finding my own understanding to rely on! It's so impersonal. And of course when libha ditthi performs the functiion of desiring with wring view, tgat's wha it is, so you can call it a little desirer if you want. Tge little desirer that rules meditators. So...nyways I have no oriblem with cuttas as litme agents performing functiions. I don't want to discuss this cuz you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and that's fine. so why waste precious time and energy on discussion? I don't really get it, I think we should discuss with oeople who are on ge same page exclusively but I guess tgat makes me a ogmatic or something, whatever. Thanks Howard , maybe somine else will do the little agent debate thing. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Phil (and all)- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group > > > > I repost this excellent passage from SPD: > > > > "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, > > kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > > > > > (end of passage) > > > > A small question. In the book, the last sentence is "kaaya **and** vinnati ruupa does not arise." Is this a misprint or did I mistype above, omitting the "and." Is there vinnati rupa distinct from kayavinnati rupa? Not vitally important perhaps kayavinnati ruupa and vacivinnati ruupa are fascinating, I find. Why do we grimace, why do we speak? > > > > Phil > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Group > > > > > > Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: > > > > > > "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > > > > > (end of passage) > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > ================================ > How is the following not presenting citta as an actor, desirer, and self? > > > > If someone on DSG were to write "When a person wants to display a sign expressing ... The person may convey his/her intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or ...If a person does not wish to display his/her intention, ...," would he/she not be condemned for expressing atta-view and probably being one of those sorry folks addicted to rite & ritual, and maybe even, Buddha forbid, a meditator?! > > With metta, > Howard > > Seamless Interdependence > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > #132039 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:08 pm Subject: Off to Canada philofillet Dear group I'm going back to the Land o' Lakes for a few weeks, I'll probably take a break during that time. Be good, and if you can't be good don't get caught!!! Phil #132040 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:56 pm Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - Thank you for your kind reply: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Howard > > Personally I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of citta as little actor or little self or whatever you and others call it. -------------------------- HCW: :-) Okay! ----------------------------- It's still completely impersonal, pecorming functions. You can call 'em little roots, or little processors, or little Russians in overcoats, spying on us, I don't care. I take Abhidhamma as a model of reality, taugh by the Buddha and elucidated by arahants for the purpose of our liberatiin. I shudder at the thought of finding my own understanding to rely on! > > It's so impersonal. And of course when libha ditthi performs the functiion of desiring with wring view, tgat's wha it is, so you can call it a little desirer if you want. Tge little desirer that rules meditators. So...nyways I have no oriblem with cuttas as litme agents performing functiions. ---------------------------- HCW: Again, okay - though I think the notion of "self" seems to be getting lost here. What is the "self" that the Buddha denied? BTW, just in case some may doubt it, I believe that "no self" is definitely right view. ------------------------------ > > I don't want to discuss this cuz you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and that's fine. so why waste precious time and energy on discussion? --------------------------------- HCW: A perspective I find understandable. ---------------------------------- I don't really get it, I think we should discuss with oeople who are on ge same page exclusively but I guess tgat makes me a ogmatic or something, whatever. --------------------------------- HCW: Well, by discussing matters on which there is disagreement, one's own view may become further understood and possibly modified. For example, I found myself learning from a recent excellent post by Ken. Conversely, inbreeding does have deficits. --------------------------------- > > Thanks Howard , maybe somine else will do the little agent debate thing. ------------------------------- HCW: Well, I'm not looking for an extended debate. My only intention was to point out that atta-view may be more subtle and far-flung than usually realized. --------------------------------- > > Phil ================================ With metta, Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Phil (and all)- > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group > > > > > > I repost this excellent passage from SPD: > > > > > > "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, > > > kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > > > > > > > (end of passage) > > > > > > A small question. In the book, the last sentence is "kaaya **and** vinnati ruupa does not arise." Is this a misprint or did I mistype above, omitting the "and." Is there vinnati rupa distinct from kayavinnati rupa? Not vitally important perhaps kayavinnati ruupa and vacivinnati ruupa are fascinating, I find. Why do we grimace, why do we speak? > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group > > > > > > > > Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: > > > > > > > > "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" > > > > > > > > (end of passage) > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > ================================ > > How is the following not presenting citta as an actor, desirer, and self? > > > > > > > > If someone on DSG were to write "When a person wants to display a sign expressing ... The person may convey his/her intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or ...If a person does not wish to display his/her intention, ...," would he/she not be condemned for expressing atta-view and probably being one of those sorry folks addicted to rite & ritual, and maybe even, Buddha forbid, a meditator?! > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > Seamless Interdependence > > > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > > > (Anonymous) > > > #132041 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:33 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) htoonaing... Sarah: Dear Htoo, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > For vipassanaa 5 precepts(pa~nca-siila), or 8 precepts (a.t,tha`nga-sammannaagata.m-siila) or ascetic-8 precepts or aajiiva.t.thamaka-siila should be built. If simple 5 precepts is used it has to be sex-free siila. These are for lay people. ... S: Does this mean that all the lay people who became enlightened in the time of the Buddha, such as the female disciple, Visakkha, did not really develop any insight or vipassana nanas? Metta Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, please read again what I wrote. "For vipassanaa..." Context has tobe always checked. Visaakhaa was a rich woman. Visaakha was a rich man. Visaakhaa became a sotapanna when she was young before her puberty. Later she was married with a man who did not believe in the Buddha. Her parents-in-law and their relatives were non-believer in the Buddha. But one day she could change them into Buddhists. She admitted that she always remembered the Buddha and the qualities of the Buddha except the time when she is having sex. Sotapannas do have kaama raaga (ta.nhaa). So they behave like puthujana in this matter. But not exactly the same. Sakadaagaamiis also have kaama raaga and they still have sex. But anaagaamiis and arahats do not have nay kaama-raaga or sensual pleasure. So they do not have sex. Arahats do have kaamaavacara cittas and the objects are kaamaaramma.na. At that time there are javana cittas of kaamaavacara things. They have lokuttaraa-cittas when they are in phala-samaapatti. Except that time or except at the time of cessation (nirodha-samaapatti) they deal with worldly things. I said "For vipassanaa..." Especially when in retreat for a limited time say 'a month or two months or so on'. Eating all the time, having sex frequently, listening to music frequently, watching TV or films frequently, meeting friends frequently and talking with them for a long time and so many others do have effect on "the progress of vipassana". Outside of the intensive training anything can be done, anything may be done except 'akusala' of kamma-patha power. I hope you are clear on the matter. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132042 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:40 am Subject: Re: G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Bogor group & Connie, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > > There Re two question on whether someone that under alcohol influence or dream to do a matricide or patricide is considered as garuka kamma or not. > > > > > > > c: What is done in a dream is thinking only, so the consequences are different from when the same kinds of things are done in waking life. The monk is not required to disrobe because of dream acts that would defeat him in waking life. The dream stuff is not a/kusala kamma patha. > ... > S: Right.... dreams just thinking, not kamma patha. > > On the other hand, such killing under the influence of alcohol is the full act and ignorance (under the influence) doesn't lessen the deed, quite the contrary. > > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Friends, I think if killing fits with the requirements for paa.naatipaata then the killer committed 1st precept. If this happen and if the victim is his own father (blood-related) then this is patricide. In this case if the killer has not known the victim is his father he is still committing the crime of patricide. This is still anantariya kamma and next life is nowhere except aviici niraya (uninterrupted burning hell). With Metta, Htoo Naing #132043 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:59 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada nichiconn watch yourself, phil... connie > I'm going back to the Land o' Lakes for a few weeks, I'll probably take a break during that time. Be good, and if you can't be good don't get caught!!! #132044 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:06 am Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E J: What you see in that paragraph, and the events described in the sutta, is all we have. The relevant events, in brief, are that (a) Upaali, a layperson, was a follower of another teacher (i.e., he had had no exposure to the teachings in that lifetime) (b) Upaali was impressed with the Buddha's words when he met him and declared himself a follower (c) the Buddha could see that Upaali was capable of attaining enlightenment and (d) to prepare Upaali's mind to receive a teaching on the 4NT, the Buddha explained to him the different levels of kusala in ascending order. To us it may seem that the gradual teaching is a fairly simple statement of the obvious, and we may wonder how it could prepare a person's mind for hearing a statement of the 4NT. We may also wonder how simply hearing an explanation of the 4NT could result in immediate enlightenment. But that just goes to show that our presently held views on what the development of the path involves are not in line with the teachings themselves. Upaali went from wrong practice (with the Jains) to enlightenment in the space of a short afternoon, on the basis of a single discussion with the Buddha and receiving a teaching on the 4NT. There was no period of 'practice' involved, and no jhana. This helps to illustrate the significance of previously accumulated understanding. When a person with highly developed panna hears a discourse from the Buddha, he/she is able to follow it at a level that we cannot even imagine. The monks in the Buddha's time, who were born at that time because of the previous good kamma that is moments of highly developed panna, did not need to hear the teaching at the level of detail that is explained in the commentaries and sub-commentaries. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Jon (Rob E and all), good to read. Jon explained clearly. But those people in Buddha's time did have 'satipa.t.thaana'. At the time of listening they went along with hearing while they directed their mind to their own physical body in line with dhamma and attained liberation. Without sati, without panna, without viriya, without vitakka, without samaadhi (equivalent to jhaana) they could not attain liberation. All these five cetasikas reached sammaa level magga`nga level and when at the peak three virati cetasikas worked as samaa things such as sammaa-vaacaa, sammaa-kammanta, and sammaa-aajiiva also arose and they saw nibbaana and liberated. Liberation is at 4 levels. Some just one level. Some one level after another and some one after another successively for 3rd level and some one after another up to the 4th level and attained arahatship. Just hearing and considering dhammas would not work to attain liberation. Without eight-fold path-factors no one can attain nibbaana of any kind. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132045 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:11 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_025 (DT 912 ) nichiconn dsg, part 3 of 3 for the intro to the Visuddhimaggo: CSCD: Yathaa naama ve.lugumbaja.taadiihi ve.ladayo, eva.m taaya ta.nhaaja.taaya sabbaapi aya.m sattanikaayasa'nkhaataa pajaa ja.titaa vinaddhaa, sa.msibbitaati attho. Path of Purification: As the bamboos, etc. are entangled by the bamboo tangle so too this generation, in other words, this order of living beings, is all entangled by the tangle of craving - the meaning is that it is intertwined, interlaced by it. Path of Purity: Just as bamboos and the like are entangled by such tangles as bamboo-bushes, so all mankind, known as the various classes of sentient beings, are entangled, enmeshed, embroiled, in that tangle of craving – this is the meaning. CSCD: Yasmaa ca eva.m ja.titaa. Ta.m ta.m gotama pucchaamiiti tasmaa ta.m pucchaami. Gotamaati bhagavanta.m gottena aalapati. PPn: [2] And because it is entangled like this, so I ask of Gotama this question, that is why I ask this. He addressed the Blessed One by his race name as Gotama. PoP: [2] And because of such entanglement, the meaning of, "Hence I would ask thee, Gotama, of this," is to be understood thus: – Therefore I ask thee, addressing the Blessed One by his family name, Gotama. CSCD: Ko ima.m vija.taye ja.tanti ima.m eva.m tedhaatuka.m ja.tetvaa .thita.m ja.ta.m ko vija.teyya, vija.tetu.m ko samatthoti pucchati. PPn: Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle: who may disentangle this tangle that keeps the three kinds of existence entangled in this way? - What he asks is, who is capable of disentangling it? PoP: "Who is't can from this tangle disembroil?" means: Who is able to disentangle this tangle which has thus entangled the Three Elements? {Or threefold conditions, viz. the world of sense, the world of form, and the world of the formless.} CSCD: Eva.m pu.t.tho panassa sabbadhammesu appa.tihata~naa.nacaaro devadevo sakkaana.m atisakko brahmaana.m atibrahmaa catuvesaarajjavisaarado dasabaladharo anaavara.na~naa.no samantacakkhu bhagavaa tamattha.m vissajjento – Siile pati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya.m; Aataapii nipako bhikkhu, so ima.m vija.taye ja.tanti. – Ima.m gaathamaaha. PPn: 3. However, when questioned thus, the Blessed One, whose knowledge of all things is unimpeded, Deity of Deities, excelling Sakka [Ruler of Gods], excelling Brahmaa, fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence, Wielder of the Ten Powers, All-seer with unobstructed knowledge, uttered this stanza in reply to explain the meaning: 'When a wise man, established well in Virtue, Develops Consciousness and Understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. PoP: Thus questioned, the Blessed One, walking in unobstructed knowledge of all things, the Deva of devas, the Sakka of Sakkas, the Brahmaa of Brahmaas, confident with the Four Confidences, bearer of the Tenfold Strength, endowed with unimpeded knowledge and the all-seeing eye, spake this stanza in answer: – "The man discreet, on virtue planted firm, In intellect and intuition trained; The brother ardent and discriminant: 'Tis he may from this tangle disembroil." connie #132046 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, Op 25 jul 2013, om 19:21 heeft htoonaing@... het volgende geschreven: > Anyway when solving problems at work 'dosa' and 'dislike' appear less and less. They hardly come up to the surface. ----- N: Thank you for your additional info how you manage all. You said before that you try to calm down others when they have dosa. Very good, anumodana. We like to help, but if the conditions are not right we cannot help others. Then upekkhaa is best. Everyone will receive the result of his kamma. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Cool to read your message. When someone is in dosa with outburst, this spread to others more or less. Example is hearing a bad news. But each will react differently. When someone with dosa faces with someone with metta, dosa-one decreases dosa a bit down even though he cannot totally stop at once. He may attack that metta-one. Again if metta-one does not respond the attack the dosa in dosa-one decreases more. This non-responding metta-one's adosa becomes khanti. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132047 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:48 am Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) truth_aerator Dear Phil, all, >Phil:I shudder at the thought of finding my own understanding to rely >on! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I shudder at thought were one completely relies on what someone else says rather than ultimately on one's own understanding. With metta, Alex #132048 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:07 am Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) htoonaing... Phil: Dear Group I repost this excellent passage from SPD: "When citta wants to display a sign expressing its intention by means of ruupas of the body, citta produces the ruupa that is bodily intimation, or kaayavinnatti ruupa. This is a specific mode of expression by ruupas of the body that arise and display the intention of the citta, in the expression of facial features, comportment of the body or gestures. Citta may convey its intention, for example, by staring in a stern way, or by making grimaces displaying contempt or disapproval. If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.(32)" (end of passage) A small question. In the book, the last sentence is "kaaya **and** vinnati ruupa does not arise." Is this a misprint or did I mistype above, omitting the "and." Is there vinnati rupa distinct from kayavinnati rupa? Not vitally important perhaps kayavinnati ruupa and vacivinnati ruupa are fascinating, I find. Why do we grimace, why do we speak? Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, vinatti is ruupa. It is upaada ruupa. That is it depends on other ruupas (pathavi, tejo, apo, vayo). When you hear dhamma-preaching in person there is vaci-vinatti. But the sound enters the microphone and appears from sound box. In that sound there is no more vaci-vinatti. That sound travels and comes back as echo. The echo is not vaci-vinatti. It is sadda or sound only. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132049 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:43 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_025 (DT 912 ) htoonaing... Connie: PPn: 3. However, when questioned thus, the Blessed One, whose knowledge of all things is unimpeded, Deity of Deities, excelling Sakka [Ruler of Gods], excelling Brahmaa, fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence, Wielder of the Ten Powers, All-seer with unobstructed knowledge, uttered this stanza in reply to explain the meaning: 'When a wise man, established well in Virtue, Develops Consciousness and Understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here a wise man has to be inborn wise man (tihetuka pa.tsandhii). He must establish virtue well (siila-visuddhi). Develop citta.m --> make development of mind Understanding --> pa~n~na.m this is not inborn wisdom. This is to develop. Later overpower on ta.nhaa. (liberated) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Connie: PoP: Thus questioned, the Blessed One, walking in unobstructed knowledge of all things, the Deva of devas, the Sakka of Sakkas, the Brahmaa of Brahmaas, confident with the Four Confidences, bearer of the Tenfold Strength, endowed with unimpeded knowledge and the all-seeing eye, spake this stanza in answer: – "The man discreet, on virtue planted firm, In intellect and intuition trained; The brother ardent and discriminant: 'Tis he may from this tangle disembroil." connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Connie. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132050 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:29 am Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) nichiconn howard, phil, If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.> > > the 'intimations' are about the briefest lived material ... conventionally, ppl are understood to go about 100 years - depending. wish, however, is not control, so there's another point to peck. hope things are well with you and the mrs, connie #132051 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:18 am Subject: Re: What is fear? colette_aube > Certainly no one else is responsible for our kamma, but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices though of couse dhamma perform that function. > colette: you leave me no choice but to question your application of the word "Kamma" which may be a misspelling of the word "Karma" which is what you are meaning and pointing at, here. What is this utter <....> and FALSE WITNESS: "...but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices..."? Are you one of those slaves who proclaim that all creation is SLAVERY and is possessed and controlled by some "creator deity"? That "shtick" is quite old and very used up as though it were a beaten path or ho chi min trail for slaves to follow as they beg to wear the suicide vest. Do you, PHIL, actually mean to suggest that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR BEHAVIOR, THE THOUGHTS THAT YOU HAVE AND HAD WHICH GAVE RISE TO YOUR BEHAVIOR, AND THE RESULTANT PHENOMENA THAT IS CREATED THROUGH (BECAUSE OF) YOUR BEHAVIOR? How long do we have to listen to your speach before you tell us that your shit does not stink? How can you or I or anybody exist, how can anything exist, through your capitulation to PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS? You suggest that because everything was already pre-existent then you have no responsibility for it and will not dare to change it because you cannot live, you cannot exist, if you risk anything, if you are not garraunteed 100% victory and control of everything? toodles, colette #132052 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:32 am Subject: Re: What is fear? philofillet Hi Collette and Connie Just a quicky on the way to the airport but as for self respnsibility I am pretty confident that hiri otappa (the twin guardians of the world and pannaand so many other kusala dhammas are developing in a way that they perform wise choices about behaviour. Maybe striving to be a good prson is effective in the short term but I believe correct understanding of Dhamma supports moraility in the short term and also in the long term.Trying to be a good person is counter-productive in the long term because wrong view of a self that can control the way dhammas play out will just keep us trapped in a misery of failed expectations forever. Thanks, gotta go, moderators sorry for the no trim. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > > > > Certainly no one else is responsible for our kamma, but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices though of couse dhamma perform that function. > > > > colette: you leave me no choice but to question your application of the word "Kamma" which may be a misspelling of the word "Karma" which is what you are meaning and pointing at, here. > > What is this utter <....> and FALSE WITNESS: "...but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices..."? > > Are you one of those slaves who proclaim that all creation is SLAVERY and is possessed and controlled by some "creator deity"? That "shtick" is quite old and very used up as though it were a beaten path or ho chi min trail for slaves to follow as they beg to wear the suicid > > Do you, PHIL, actually mean to suggest that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR BEHAVIOR, THE THOUGHTS THAT YOU HAVE AND HAD WHICH GAVE RISE TO YOUR BEHAVIOR, AND THE RESULTANT PHENOMENA THAT IS CREATED THROUGH (BECAUSE OF) YOUR BEHAVIOR? How long do we have to listen to your speach before you tell us that your shit does not stink? > > How can you or I or anybody exist, how can anything exist, through your capitulation to PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS? You suggest that because everything was already pre-existent then you have no responsibility for it and will not dare to change it because you cannot live, you cannot exist, if you risk anything, if you are not garraunteed 100% victory and control of everything? > > toodles, > colette > #132053 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:59 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha kenhowardau Hi Htoo, -------- > H: thanks for your explanation. I know what you mean. -------- KH: Thanks for listening, Htoo, but I am sure you *don't* know what I mean. ----------------- > H: In Myanmar there are some traditions of vipassana teaching to see 'the very present moment'. ------------------ KH: There are also traditions teaching people to *try* to see the present moment. "Trying" is the operative word here. The teaching I have been talking about does not include trying. ---------------------------- > H: I am considering on how many people from DSG is on 'the very present moment' all the time. I think they do only at the time of thinking on dhamma. --------------- KH: Yes, but that is because you have a different understanding of the present moment. The way those DSG people understand it, there is ultimately no period of time other than the present moment. That moment lasts for just one citta, and then it is gone. Therefore (according to them) satipatthana cannot possibly be practised for "seven years" or "seven days." It can only be practised now -- in this one, present, moment. Theirs is a different way of understanding – very different from the ordinary way - and so it is very hard to explain. I hope you can at least see that you don't see it. --------------------- > H: The practice does require. --------------------- KH: You made a typing error: did you mean to say the practice does require trying? In other words, did you mean to say the practice does require a conventional understanding of the word "practice"? According to those DSG people, the practice requires a completely new, unconventional, understanding. But it is very hard to see when you don't already see it. Even when you do see it, it is inherently very hard to see. -------------------------------- > H: I am not looking for agreement. -------------------------------- KH: Agreed! :-) We would be very frustrated if our efforts in Dhamma discussions required agreement. We do it for the sheer joy of it. Ken H #132054 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:23 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hello again. Changed my mind. I will find wi-fi in Canada. It's important that as many students of AS as possible keep posting here to de-facilitate a takeover by interlopers like the one that started to happen a few months ago. Nobody else sees it that way, I know, but *I* do and that is what always carries the most weight, of course. Stingily yours, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear group > > I'm going back to the Land o' Lakes for a few weeks, I'll probably take a break during that time. Be good, and if you can't be good don't get caught!!! > > Phil > #132055 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:50 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Have a good trip and glad about the change of mind for whatever reason:-) Metta Sarah p.s Pt and Ell and her daughter coming for Dhamma discussion shortly. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Changed my mind. I will find wi-fi in Canada. #132056 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:46 pm Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: You may find it interesting to read a sutta in which the passage appears. Here's a link to a translation of the Upaali Sutta (M.56) (the relevant passage appears about half way through): > > > http://www.vipassana.info/056-upali-e1.htm > > > > > > Let me know what you think! > > > > RE: I think it's an extremely intense sutta, with which I was not familiar previously. It's a great story, isn't it? I especially enjoyed the deluded teacher vomiting blood at the end - that's a fairly extreme reaction to the Dhamma, is it not? > > > > The sutta makes a point probably more important than the one we're discussing, that cetana is more important than speech or action. That seems to go in the opposite direction of the idea that cetana expressed in action is more significant than cetana deferred, but perhaps I am just confused. > > =============== > > J: Not sure which part of the sutta you have in mind here. Would you mind quoting or giving a reference -- thanks. Well the whole sutta is about this issue. I'm not sure if I understand exactly what is meant by this: `Friend Gotama, of these three punishments that are different and dissected, Niganthanataputta declares bodily punishment as the most blameworthy, for doing demerit and its perpetration not so much verbal and mental punishments'. The idea of a punishment being blameworthy doesn't make much sense to me. Does it mean which punishment is worse? Is this referring to vipaka, or kamma? In the Buddha's version, he says "action" rather than "punishment." "Action" is "kamma." But "Punishment" is more like "vipaka." So the whole discussion confuses me. But whatever the mechanism is, the question is, which is worse: mental, speech or physical "action" or "punishment?" Niganthanataputta teaches that physical "punishment" is the most blameworthy [whatever that means,] and not so much mental or speech "punishment" [which I also don't understand.] The Buddha teaches the opposite. So anyway, that's what it's about, but I can use some help understanding what the terms of the discussion mean, which don't quite add up for me. > > =============== > > RE: As for the context of the "gradual teaching," I don't really get the connection - I mean, it's kind of a context, but not much of one. :-) How do you interpret the context? > > =============== > > J: What you see in that paragraph, and the events described in the sutta, is all we have. > > The relevant events, in brief, are that (a) Upaali, a layperson, was a follower of another teacher (i.e., he had had no exposure to the teachings in that lifetime) (b) Upaali was impressed with the Buddha's words when he met him and declared himself a follower (c) the Buddha could see that Upaali was capable of attaining enlightenment and (d) to prepare Upaali's mind to receive a teaching on the 4NT, the Buddha explained to him the different levels of kusala in ascending order. > > To us it may seem that the gradual teaching is a fairly simple statement of the obvious, and we may wonder how it could prepare a person's mind for hearing a statement of the 4NT. We may also wonder how simply hearing an explanation of the 4NT could result in immediate enlightenment. But that just goes to show that our presently held views on what the development of the path involves are not in line with the teachings themselves. > > Upaali went from wrong practice (with the Jains) to enlightenment in the space of a short afternoon, on the basis of a single discussion with the Buddha and receiving a teaching on the 4NT. There was no period of 'practice' involved, and no jhana. This helps to illustrate the significance of previously accumulated understanding. > > When a person with highly developed panna hears a discourse from the Buddha, he/she is able to follow it at a level that we cannot even imagine. The monks in the Buddha's time, who were born at that time because of the previous good kamma that is moments of highly developed panna, did not need to hear the teaching at the level of detail that is explained in the commentaries and sub-commentaries. Well I focused a little more on the dispute in the competing teachings, which is kind of confusing but emphasizes the mental over speech and physical in some way, shape or form. As for those of highly developed panna not needing to practice and getting enlightened from a short word from the Buddha, that doesn't surprise me so much, given two important factors: 1. The accumulation of panna in former lives. 2. The BUDDHA being the one giving the short talk. I don't think anyone can overemphasize the influence of these two highly unusual factors, in the absence of which it may be necessary to do a lot of regular meditation to develop the missing panna. The fact that so many of these highly developed monks at the time of the Buddha spent a large part of their day sitting cross-legged in a quiet place to develop samatha and vipassana says a lot in favor of such "meditation," or whatever one would like to call it. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #132057 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:51 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hello again. > > Changed my mind. I will find wi-fi in Canada. It's important that as many students of AS as possible keep posting here to de-facilitate a takeover by interlopers like the one that started to happen a few months ago. Nobody else sees it that way, I know, but *I* do and that is what always carries the most weight, of course. Good luck with your political agenda. I hope you defeat all the enemies of the teachings with your biased zealotry. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #132058 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hello Htoo, > > Without samaadhi there will not be panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the > Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > For the Path it needs many conditions. One of conditions is foundation > of pre-path. In pre-path siila has to be observed first but when > working with pre-path there are only 5 parts. > You are saying that before there can be wisdom, there must be some level of accumulated Sila. How did you arrive at this conclusion? You would first have had to hear the Dhamma and therefore had wisdom at the level of pariyatti arise, would you not? If so, does this not make "wisdom" the basis upon which further development occur? Wisdom leads to increase in other kinds of kusala rather than the other way round, is it not? > When this panc`ngika magga or pre-path is being built concentration is > needed. If the mind is clouded then the path will not be clear. When > not clear then the path-consciousness cannot arise > I've seen this kind of reasoning regarding the "mind being clouded' and therefore the need for concentration as means for "seeing" the Truth, exist in other religions as well. What is the difference in understanding between your position and theirs in this regard? I can understand that in the case of other religions, the perception of "mind being clouded" is the result of wrong view of permanence and of self. As students of the Dhamma, we know that the quality of the citta is determined by the accompanying roots, and citta and the accompanying cetasika all rise and fall away together in an instant. What kind of citta would "concentration" be, and if rooted in wisdom, what kind of wisdom? If it is the one related to the development of samatha / jhana, what relationship does this have to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path? If you are suggesting that a moment of deep samadhi achieved as a result of one kind of wisdom can lead to arising of the other kind of wisdom, please tell me by what paccaya this happens? If you say that this is due to the hindrances being suppressed at those moments, then the question is, by what condition does it remain suppressed in the following moment when the panna is of a different kind? More importantly, if wisdom of the Eightfold Path can and must know any reality, be it kusala, akusala or avyakata, why does it suddenly need the hindrances to be suppressed in order to arise? And when it does at that moment, what does it know / understand? Does it know only kusala? Can it not know the hindrances themselves? > Htoo: > > The best is 4th ruupa-jhaana. If 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th aruupa-jhaana can > be attained it is good. Still if not yet possible 3rd, 2nd ruupa > jhaanas are good to be in hand. If this is still not possible it is > better to attain 1st jhaana. > > Even if not at jhaana (appanaa-samaadhi), it is better to have > upacaara-samaadhi, which has almost the same power like 1st jhaana. In > upcaara-samaadhi there is no hindrances no niivara.na dhamma. > You know what the above sounds like? Promotion of Jhana as means to enlightenment and reflection of a lack of confidence in the Noble Eightfold Path!! > If there is niivara.na dhamma there will be slowness to progress in > understanding (at experiential level). > The Path is developed by repeated arising and panna becomes keener and keener by virtue of this process, not due to the hindrances being suppressed as result of a practice which is *not* the Path, re: the development of samatha / Jhana. > Sukin: > > And does the balancing happen as a result of following separate > practices for each of the indriyas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > We do not need to set up indriya separately. But when go on there > always is imbalance. Then this has to be balanced. In this instance we > need upekkha which is best when 4th jhaana can be attained. > Are we not talking about the Five Indriyas which correspond with the Five Balas rather than the other meaning where upekkha is included? Or do you mean that with upekkha which comes with the 4th jhana, the indriyas are balanced? This latter sounds like a case of someone becoming ever more desperate to include Jhana as part of right practice. > Htoo: > > In Mahaa-satipa.t.thaana sutta.m the Buddha guranteed that if follow > the teaching as described in that sutta.m average is 7 years for > anaagaamii or arahat-ship. This is not my word. It is in sutta.m and > what the Buddha said. > > "Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, ime cattaaro satipa.t.thaane eva.m bhaaveyya > satta vassaani tassa dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m > paa.tika`nkha.m di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa sati vaa upaadi sese > anaagaamitaa." > > PS: The fastest is half-day if there is the Buddha as the teacher. > This is for neyya puggalas. > The fastest was less than a minute re: Sariputta. In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha was addressing those whose panna were developed to the level of indriya / bala, or perhaps even those who in previous lives, had attained some level of vipassanannana. He did not say this to those who've only had occasional satipatthana in the past, let alone those with only pariyatti understanding, and certainly not those who had strong accumulation for wrong practice, the same as 99.999% of the Buddhists today and the last 500 years. > Sukin: > I mean, what many people believe to be the result of meditation > practice. Some not so great, some as being first jhana, second jhana, > vipassanannana and even sotapatti or higher, but all in fact delusional. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There is a monk in Myanmar. Bhaddanta Javana called "Myittarshin Shwe > Pyii Thar". I quote him because what he said is logical. > > There are 3 jobs for three separate identities. > > 1. yogis' job > 2. teachers' job > 3. dhamma's job > > Yogis or meditators have to follow and practice according to what the > teacher teach. > Dhamma students should not follow anyone. They should develop understanding of the Dhamma as taught in the Tipitaka with the present moment as reference point, not even to follow anything just because they read the Buddha as saying so. The Buddha encouraged "understanding" from the very beginning as can be seen from what he said to the Kalama people. > Teachers are to guide their meditator-students to the right way. But > not to decide whether his student is sotapanna or his student attains > jhaana. > > Dhamma's job is realization. > > As you said some are delutional. But not all. > If the teacher teaches and the students learn, with the idea of "self", then automatically this is aimed at some result and this cause would be the wrong cause. This means that both are delusion from the very beginning and will be so in the middle and more so in the end. The Dhamma being good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end is about the development of pariyatti leading to patipatti and to pativedha. And this is with detachment all the way through, no idea of a "self" who has to do anything in order to receive anything. > Sukin: > > Earlier while making the point of dhamma meditator / students in > Myanmar not overlooking need to study the Tipitaka, you had said that > some of them after attainment, would check with the texts to make sure > that what they attained was correct. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > If I said that it might well be tongue slip. In a case of a man who > was the pupil of Ledi Sayadaw he understood that he had not attained > path (magga) a few days before his attainment. He read the texts again > even though he got the method of practice. After a few days he > attained the path but not arahat-ship. After attainment he reproached > his family whom he deserted for about more than 10 years. > If I told you that through studying with the K. Sujin and with this and that happening along the way, I have finally become a Sotapanna, would you believe me? If you do not, please explain why? > Sukin: > > You mean after "hearing the Dhamma" and "associating with the wise", > you look for a "wise teacher" out there to teach you something which > otherwise cannot happen? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > For sotapanna-ship teacher is needed. > > "Yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.naaya satthaa pariyesitabbo_Sampayutta Nikaaya" > What is the difference in understanding of the "wise" from whom one initially hears the true Dhamma and continues to associate with, and the "teacher" who then leads one to become a Sotapanna? > Sukin: > After hearing the Buddha teach, some of his disciples had to look for > teachers to learn meditation? So the Dhamma spoken by the Buddha alone > was not enough for his disciples, and they needed something "more" > from his enlightened savakas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please check that in sutta.ms. > I know about such stories regarding the Buddha suggesting to some disciple to go to this or that elder for further instructions. And in some cases, these elders gave a meditation subject to contemplate upon. You read this as further instructions. I read it as the Buddha knowing what exactly would act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna to arise in the case of someone ready for enlightenment. > Sukin: > > The reference to "moment to moment" is saying that panna develops only > in relation to what appears "now" and at any given moment, there is > only ever "now" to be known. I don't believe in the idea of being > mindful all the time, except only when it is bhavanga cittas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > When almost everything arises at door is known there left bhavanga > cittas. If bhavanga cittas are not that much the meditators can know > that there are gaps in between meditative mind. > See, here itself is expression of wrong understanding. Would understanding perceive as "gaps between meditative mind" or rather as gaps between sense door and mind door processes or mind door and mind door processes? And you really believe that understanding of these gaps (bhavanga cittas) come after one has continuous mindfulness of the vitthi cittas? To me this is wrong thinking / conclusion as a result of wrong understanding about the nature of dhammas, particularly the development of the Path. > Sukin: > > Right understanding begins with pariyatti level. Patipatti can begin > to arise only after this pariyatti level has been accumulated over > many lifetimes. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So you will be waiting learning pariyatti and waiting for the right > conditions to arise. OK that is your choice. > It would be attachment to self which is "waiting for right conditions". You are projecting your own tendency to this into what some of us have been saying. What is encouraged is understanding "now" and the detachment which comes with this, rather than thinking in terms of the past and future with attachment. When I observed the sudden boom in the erection of Hindu statues in front of business establishments in Bangkok in recent years, I see this as growing superstition as a result of attachment and the lack of understanding. I see the flocking towards, and reasoning in support of, "formal meditation" as similarly motivated. I think there is nothing new that can be said by either of us. So perhaps we should drop this discussion. What do you think? Metta, Sukin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #132059 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anattaa. sukinderpal Hello Htoo, Robert K, Sarah, > >Cuu.lapanthaka seemed poorly accumulated. He did not seem to know as > you know now. But he after attaining arahatship could preached dhamma > even in front of the Buddha (as the Buddha asked him to do so). > .... > S: He had accumulated right understanding over countless life-times > and had listened to a lot of Abhidhamma detail - so much so when > conditions were right, there was sufficient wisdom for arahatship. We > cannot tell from the outer appearances. As you often stress, only the > Buddha has full knowledge of all asaya-anusaya (tendencies). > ... > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Unseen accumulations. > > If you were in place of Mahaa-Panthaka, the brother of Cuu.la-Panthaka > who attained 8 jhaanas and got etadagga in aruupa-jhaana you would > have said "Hi! Cuulapanthaka, you do not have enough accumulations. > Dhamma have to be studied for a long long time so that it becomes > accumulated. You do not "do the practice"". > When Robert passed through Bangkok a few days ago and we got a chance to meet, one thing I suggested to him was that I believe that I am two rooted and not triple rooted. This I said because I believe that I somewhat mentally retarded. In referring to what he believes to be some level of understanding on my part, Robert did not agree with me. But I was quick to remind him that being two rooted, one can still develop understanding, only not have any attainments. Later that day, the topic about Culapanthaka arose. And I said that sometimes I am encouraged by his story because like me, Culapanthaka was slow to comprehend verbal instructions and making sense of the conventional world in general. Robert instantly pointed out to me, that Culapanthaka was triple rooted! I think Htoo, you are wrong to make a connection between intelligence and wisdom, and being dumb and being foolish. There is no such connection. Metta, Sukin #132060 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:55 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_026 (DT 913 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, "Siile pa.t.thaaya naro sappa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya.m. Aataapii nipako bhikkhu, so ima.m vija.taye jata.m". "The wise man dwelling on siila, having hi-drying effort and ripen wisdom when proliferating citta.m and pa~n~naa such a wise man can solve the complexities (entangled networks)." Here the wise man seems accumulated being. Siila here is siila-visuddhi, purification of morality. Effort here is not just simple viriya. There are many siila. Group of two Caaritta siila & vaaritta siila Aabhisamaacaarika & aadibrahmacariyaka Viratii & aviratii Nissita & anissita Kaalapariyanta & aapaa.nako.tika Sapariyanta & apariyanta Lokiya & lokuttaraa Group of three Hiina, majjhima , pa.niita Attaadhipateyya, lokaadhipateyya, dhammaadhipateyya Paraama.t.tha, aparaama.t.tha, pa.tippassaddha Visuddha , avisuddha, vematika Sekkha, asekkha, nevasekkhanaasekkha Gloss-: hiina = lesser, majjhima = the middle, pa.niita = greatest Siila for fame, for rebirth in higher status, to thrash other & praise oneself is hiina-siila. Majjhima is like as oppose to hiina-siila that is not for those described. Pa.niita siila is beyond worldly things and it is lokuttaraa-siila. Attaadhipateyya siila = self-respecting siila(observe because of self respect) Lokaadhipateyya siila =world-respecting siila(observe because the environment or the world is respected) Dhammadhipateyya siila = dhamma-respecting siila (observe because the doctrine is respected) Paraama.t.tha siila = siila based on ta.nhaa & di.t.thi Aparaama.t.tha siila = siila of magga (based not on tanha & ditthi but on panna/ siila in path) Pa.tippassaddha siila = siila of phala (siila in fruition) Visuddha siila = cleansed siila, avisuddha siila = unclean/untreated/ uncleansed siila, vematika siila = siila having suspicion whether it is pure or not Sekkha siila = siila in 4 path-consciousness and siila in lower 3 fuition-consciousness Asekkha siila = siila of arahats ( siila of arahatta phala) Nevasekkhaanaasekkhaa siila = all other sila except sekkha siila and asekkha siila. Among these what matter are paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila, indriya-sa.mvara siila, aajivapaarisuddhi siila, and paccayasannissita siila are necessary for purification of siila or morality or siila-visuddhi. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-26 DT-913 #132061 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:00 pm Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > howard, phil, > > If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.> > > > > > > the 'intimations' are about the briefest lived material ... conventionally, ppl are understood to go about 100 years - depending. > wish, however, is not control, so there's another point to peck. > > hope things are well with you and the mrs, > connie ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Dear Howard, Phil, Connie and all, ruupa's life span is 17 times as long as naama. Among 28 ruupas, 18 are true ruupas and their life spans are the same. But vinatti ruupas last the same as naama because they are cittaja ruupa and when citta disappears they disappear. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132062 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:01 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha htoonaing... Ken H: Hi Htoo, -------- > H: thanks for your explanation. I know what you mean. -------- KH: Thanks for listening, Htoo, but I am sure you *don't* know what I mean. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know why you feel sure. For me I am reading relaxly. Just see light and colours. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: In Myanmar there are some traditions of vipassana teaching to see 'the very present moment'. ------------------ KH: There are also traditions teaching people to *try* to see the present moment. "Trying" is the operative word here. The teaching I have been talking about does not include trying. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :) :) :) Practice is surely required. Trying is surely required. Doing is surely required. For vipassana/satipatthana. Without these there is no true viriya. Wording does not matter when walking path is right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: I am considering on how many people from DSG is on 'the very present moment' all the time. I think they do only at the time of thinking on dhamma. --------------- KH: Yes, but that is because you have a different understanding of the present moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: By 'Yes,' do you mean what I assumed is complelely right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: The way those DSG people understand it, there is ultimately no period of time other than the present moment. That moment lasts for just one citta, and then it is gone. Therefore (according to them) satipatthana cannot possibly be practised for "seven years" or "seven days." It can only be practised now -- in this one, present, moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just quoted what the Buddha said. You or any of DSG can assume as you all wish on the words that the Buddha said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Theirs is a different way of understanding – very different from the ordinary way - and so it is very hard to explain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha taught in ordinary way. Everything is not that hard to explain in Buddha way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: I hope you can at least see that you don't see it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The thing that does not exist does not need to be seen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: The practice does require. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KH: You made a typing error: did you mean to say the practice does require trying? In other words, did you mean to say the practice does require a conventional understanding of the word "practice"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: "The practice is required." That is 'it is required to get on the right path'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: According to those DSG people, the practice requires a completely new, unconventional, understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Strange! Do you mean 'the practice requires understanding'. That understanding is a completely new and unconventional? Strange! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: But it is very hard to see when you don't already see it. Even when you do see it, it is inherently very hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not to that degree. The problem is that many many many people did not know how to know because of long absence of Sammaasambuddha. You would be talking on accumulations if I give examples. If dhamma is very very hard then there was no reason to understand the dhamma in "Ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa tesa.m hetu.m tathaagato aaha. Tesa~nca yo nirodho eva.m vaadii mahaasama.no" spoken by B. Assaji to Upatissa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: I am not looking for agreement. -------------------------------- KH: Agreed! :-) We would be very frustrated if our efforts in Dhamma discussions required agreement. We do it for the sheer joy of it. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Equally I am not looking for disagreement. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132063 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:16 pm Subject: T.A. on Sunday (July 28), live. Remembrance, sa~n~naa. nilovg Dear friends, Very good if Jagkrit can add something. T.A. on Sunday (July 28), live. The subject was sa~n~naa, remembrance. Q: T.A.: Khun Unnop: T.A.: < It must be now. When pa~n~naa rightly understands realities sa~n~naa will become firmer. As to asubha sa~n~naa, remembrance of foulness, of things as not beautiful, this is not just thinking. Who thinks? Something is not beautiful because of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. It is not a question of words. We see a beautiful flower and can we say that it is not beautiful? What does pa~ n~naa know? It is anattaa, not a person. Because of seeing, there is attention to shape and form and we remember what is seen as beautiful. But pa~n~naa must know that everything, everything is just dhamma. > Other speaker: T.a.:< Is there now asubha? We think of foulness but it is not a matter of thinking. We do not have to force ourselves not to like something. That does not lead to the eradication of defilements. There should be more understanding of what appears. We have to listen again, and know that it is dhamma, not self, not a person. > Kh Unnop: T.A.< It is the Application of mindfulness of the body. What we take for self, for body is only dhamma.> ********* Nina. #132064 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:31 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin: Hello Htoo, I think there is nothing new that can be said by either of us. So perhaps we should drop this discussion. What do you think? Metta, Sukin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Dear Sukin, that is fine. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132065 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:20 am Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Phil) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > howard, phil, > > If citta does not wish to display its intention, kaaya vinnatti ruupa does not arise.> > > > > > > the 'intimations' are about the briefest lived material ... conventionally, ppl are understood to go about 100 years - depending. > wish, however, is not control, so there's another point to peck. -------------------------------- HCW: There is wishing but no wisher. Speaking of "citta wishing" puts citta forward as a wisher, it seems to me. So, your ping peck has been followed by my pong peck! LOLOL! --------------------------------- > > hope things are well with you and the mrs, > connie ---------------------------------- HCW: THANK you, Connie! Rita & I both well though with expected minor aspects of aging arising much of the time. ;-)For example, we're both having some dental problems, and this past Tuesday I had cataract surgery done. (As I say - minor!) C'est la vie! I hope that you and all those you love are very well, Connie!! =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132066 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:25 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada upasaka_howard Jesus, Phil, a military coup d'etat? I sure hope no arrests get made. With metta, Howard P. S. Fare well (that's NOT "farewell"!) and be well in Canada! :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hello again. > > Changed my mind. I will find wi-fi in Canada. It's important that as many students of AS as possible keep posting here to de-facilitate a takeover by interlopers like the one that started to happen a few months ago. Nobody else sees it that way, I know, but *I* do and that is what always carries the most weight, of course. > > Stingily yours, > > Phil > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear group > > > > I'm going back to the Land o' Lakes for a few weeks, I'll probably take a break during that time. Be good, and if you can't be good don't get caught!!! > > > > Phil > > > #132067 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:53 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin & Htoo discussion (may be this is the last of this heading/thread) If not respond it is OK. We will stop here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Hello Htoo, > Without samaadhi there will not be panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: "Samaadhi.m bhaveto, bhikkhave, yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Yathaabhuuta.m pajaananto naamaruupa.m vipassati. Naamaruupa.m vipassanto anicca.m passati. Anicca.m passanto dukkha.m passati. Dukkha.m passanto anatta.m vijaanaati. Anatta.m jaananto samudaya.m pahaayati. Samudaya.m pahaayanto nirodha.m bhavissati. Nirodha.m bhavanto nibbaana.m sacchikara.nati." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > For the Path it needs many conditions. One of conditions is foundation > of pre-path. In pre-path siila has to be observed first but when > working with pre-path there are only 5 parts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You are saying that before there can be wisdom, there must be some level of accumulated Sila. How did you arrive at this conclusion? You would first have had to hear the Dhamma and therefore had wisdom at the level of pariyatti arise, would you not? If so, does this not make "wisdom" the basis upon which further development occur? Wisdom leads to increase in other kinds of kusala rather than the other way round, is it not? ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Far left. Pa.tipatti is the practice to attain pa.tivedha. ----------------------------------------------------------------------> When this panc`ngika magga or pre-path is being built concentration is > needed. If the mind is clouded then the path will not be clear. When > not clear then the path-consciousness cannot arise ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I've seen this kind of reasoning regarding the "mind being clouded' and therefore the need for concentration as means for "seeing" the Truth, exist in other religions as well. What is the difference in understanding between your position and theirs in this regard? I can understand that in the case of other religions, the perception of "mind being clouded" is the result of wrong view of permanence and of self. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Even you have right view of impermanence samaadhi is required. Without samaadhi you will not be on the right path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As students of the Dhamma, we know that the quality of the citta is determined by the accompanying roots, and citta and the accompanying cetasika all rise and fall away together in an instant. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: You are talking on citta as if citta is a person. It does not have any quality. It just has characteristic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: What kind of citta would "concentration" be, ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: It is not vipaaka. So it has to be akusala or kusala ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: and if rooted in wisdom, what kind of wisdom? ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: That depends on the object. All jhaanas are kusala. All jhaanas are not akusala. Exception is abyaakata-jhaana of arahats. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: If it is the one related to the development of samatha / jhana, what relationship does this have to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path? Htoo: Sahajaata paccaya. Conascent condition. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: If you are suggesting that a moment of deep samadhi achieved as a result of one kind of wisdom can lead to arising of the other kind of wisdom,please tell me by what paccaya this happens? If you say that this is due to the hindrances being suppressed at those moments, then the question is, by what condition does it remain suppressed in the following moment when the panna is of a different kind? ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Sahajaata ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: More importantly, if wisdom of the Eightfold Path can and must know any reality, be it kusala, akusala or avyakata, why does it suddenly need the hindrances to be suppressed in order to arise? ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: NEP knows nibbaana. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: And when it does at that moment, what does it know / understand? Does it know only kusala? Can it not know the hindrances themselves? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: NEP knows nibbaana, I have said that above. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: > Htoo: > The best is 4th ruupa-jhaana. If 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th aruupa-jhaana can > be attained it is good. Still if not yet possible 3rd, 2nd ruupa > jhaanas are good to be in hand. If this is still not possible it is > better to attain 1st jhaana. > Even if not at jhaana (appanaa-samaadhi), it is better to have > upacaara-samaadhi, which has almost the same power like 1st jhaana. In > upcaara-samaadhi there is no hindrances no niivara.na dhamma. You know what the above sounds like? Promotion of Jhana as means to enlightenment and reflection of a lack of confidence in the Noble Eightfold Path!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: No. Not promotion. It is necessity. It can be seen in many sutta.m. NEP has samaadhi called sammaa-samaadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > If there is niivara.na dhamma there will be slowness to progress in > understanding (at experiential level). ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: The Path is developed by repeated arising and panna becomes keener and keener by virtue of this process, not due to the hindrances being suppressed as result of a practice which is *not* the Path, re: the development of samatha / Jhana. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: You are totally wrong. Noble Eightfold Path is just a moment. It is at magga kha.na. It is as the result of *practice*. The practice is vipassanaa. The practice is satipa.t.thaana. Without this anyone including Sammaasambuddhas, paccekabuddhas, and all saavaka cannot attain nibbaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > And does the balancing happen as a result of following separate > practices for each of the indriyas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > We do not need to set up indriya separately. But when go on there > always is imbalance. Then this has to be balanced. In this instance we > need upekkha which is best when 4th jhaana can be attained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Are we not talking about the Five Indriyas which correspond with the Five Balas rather than the other meaning where upekkha is included? Or do you mean that with upekkha which comes with the 4th jhana, the indriyas are balanced? This latter sounds like a case of someone becoming ever more desperate to include Jhana as part of right practice. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: I was not jumping out of the discussion. Upekkhaa is also one of the 7 enlightenment-factors called bojjha`nga. In these there are many of jhaana-factors. Without samaadhi there is no panna. ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Htoo: > In Mahaa-satipa.t.thaana sutta.m the Buddha guranteed that if follow > the teaching as described in that sutta.m average is 7 years for > anaagaamii or arahat-ship. This is not my word. It is in sutta.m and > what the Buddha said. > "Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, ime cattaaro satipa.t.thaane eva.m bhaaveyya > satta vassaani tassa dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m > paa.tika`nkha.m di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa sati vaa upaadi sese > anaagaamitaa." > PS: The fastest is half-day if there is the Buddha as the teacher. > This is for neyya puggalas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The fastest was less than a minute re: Sariputta. In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha was addressing those whose panna were developed to the level of indriya / bala, or perhaps even those who in previous lives, had attained some level of vipassanannana. He did not say this to those who've only had occasional satipatthana in the past, let alone those with only pariyatti understanding, and certainly not those who had strong accumulation for wrong practice, the same as 99.999% of the Buddhists today and the last 500 years. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is dilution. This is over-generalization. There are many who are not true Buddhists. If true Theravadan Buddhists they are more than 99.99999% right practice. ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Sukin: > I mean, what many people believe to be the result of meditation > practice. Some not so great, some as being first jhana, second jhana, > vipassanannana and even sotapatti or higher, but all in fact delusional. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There is a monk in Myanmar. Bhaddanta Javana called "Myittarshin Shwe > Pyii Thar". I quote him because what he said is logical. > There are 3 jobs for three separate identities. > 1. yogis' job > 2. teachers' job > 3. dhamma's job > Yogis or meditators have to follow and practice according to what the > teacher teach. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: Dhamma students should not follow anyone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: So you desert all your teachers. This might include the Buddha who originally laid down the dhammas. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: They should develop understanding of the Dhamma as taught in the Tipitaka with the present moment as reference point, not even to follow anything just because they read the Buddha as saying so. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Do you mean that "it is not needed to read what the Buddha said"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The Buddha encouraged "understanding" from the very beginning as can be seen from what he said to the Kalama people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Kaalama sutta.m was preached a bit late. It does not say anything like understanding. ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Teachers are to guide their meditator-students to the right way. But > not to decide whether his student is sotapanna or his student attains > jhaana. > Dhamma's job is realization. > As you said some are delutional. But not all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: If the teacher teaches and the students learn, with the idea of "self", then automatically this is aimed at some result and this cause would be the wrong cause. This means that both are delusion from the very beginning and will be so in the middle and more so in the end. The Dhamma being good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end is about the development of pariyatti leading to patipatti and to pativedha. And this is with detachment all the way through, no idea of a "self" who has to do anything in order to receive anything. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: "Sahaavassa dassana sampadaaya tayassu dhammaa jahita bhavanti. Sakkaaya di.t.thi viicikicchita~nca siilabbata.m vaa pi yadatthi ki~nci. Ida.m pi sa.mghe yatana.m pa.niita.m etena saccena suvatthi hotu." Di.t.thi (the cetasika ditthi) is eradicated at the moment when path consciousness arises. Before this there can be ditthi. You seem to eradicate ditthi even before magga-citta arise while still doing nothing of NEP. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Earlier while making the point of dhamma meditator / students in > Myanmar not overlooking need to study the Tipitaka, you had said that > some of them after attainment, would check with the texts to make sure > that what they attained was correct. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If I said that it might well be tongue slip. In a case of a man who > was the pupil of Ledi Sayadaw he understood that he had not attained > path (magga) a few days before his attainment. He read the texts again > even though he got the method of practice. After a few days he > attained the path but not arahat-ship. After attainment he reproached > his family whom he deserted for about more than 10 years. If I told you that through studying with the K. Sujin and with this and that happening along the way, I have finally become a Sotapanna, would you believe me? If you do not, please explain why? ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Definitely not if there was no practice of satipatthaana. Because there is no sammaa-sa`nkappa, no sammaa-samaadhi and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > You mean after "hearing the Dhamma" and "associating with the wise", > you look for a "wise teacher" out there to teach you something which > otherwise cannot happen? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > For sotapanna-ship teacher is needed. > "Yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.naaya satthaa pariyesitabbo_Sampayutta Nikaaya" --------------------------------------------------- Sukin: What is the difference in understanding of the "wise" from whom one initially hears the true Dhamma and continues to associate with, and the "teacher" who then leads one to become a Sotapanna? ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Even the dhamma was true the ear could not have been true. When the teacher does not practice anything the pupil also does not practice anything. Now is 2013. It is not the age when understanding on hearing dhamma finishes everything. Nowadays it is neyya age. Have to *do* practice. Without practice without *doing* is to say "not walking on the path". Even simple viriya or effort is not enough to arise magga citta. I do not say `wanting magga' `fastly develop magga naana' or anything like that. But if there is no *practice* then the whole life will be uselessly wasted and if die with this thought then this will lead directly to niraya. (Because denied what the Buddha taught). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > After hearing the Buddha teach, some of his disciples had to look for > teachers to learn meditation? So the Dhamma spoken by the Buddha alone > was not enough for his disciples, and they needed something "more" > from his enlightened savakas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please check that in sutta.ms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I know about such stories regarding the Buddha suggesting to some disciple to go to this or that elder for further instructions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Wrong. False. One was sent to an arahat who was about 7-year-old one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And in some cases, these elders gave a meditation subject to contemplate upon. You read this as further instructions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Totally wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I read it as the Buddha knowing what exactly would act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna to arise in the case of someone ready for enlightenment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You said you are in infant stage in dhamma. Here the Buddha saw that `maana' in that elder tipi.takadhara monk stopped him to be enlightened. The 7 year old one ask him to do sweeping, carring water walking into lake and soaked. After some threshing the elder was taught to catch reptile at the mind door while all other 5 doors have to be shut. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > The reference to "moment to moment" is saying that panna develops only > in relation to what appears "now" and at any given moment, there is > only ever "now" to be known. I don't believe in the idea of being > mindful all the time, except only when it is bhavanga cittas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > When almost everything arises at door is known there left bhavanga > cittas. If bhavanga cittas are not that much the meditators can know > that there are gaps in between meditative mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: See, here itself is expression of wrong understanding. Would understanding perceive as "gaps between meditative mind" or rather as gaps between sense door and mind door processes or mind door and mind door processes? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are thinking on what you ever read and not understanding(dictionary word) what I worte. This is practical matter and you will not be able to in line with it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And you really believe that understanding of these gaps (bhavanga cittas) come after one has continuous mindfulness of the vitthi cittas? To me this is wrong thinking / conclusion as a result of wrong understanding about the nature of dhammas, particularly the development of the Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are wrong. Viithi cittas are in abhidhamma. You cannot see this or that is a viithi citta. When you understand something it has arisen and fallen away. Many many many cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Right understanding begins with pariyatti level. Patipatti can begin > to arise only after this pariyatti level has been accumulated over > many lifetimes. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > So you will be waiting learning pariyatti and waiting for the right > conditions to arise. OK that is your choice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It would be attachment to self which is "waiting for right conditions". You are projecting your own tendency to this into what some of us have been saying. What is encouraged is understanding "now" and the detachment which comes with this, rather than thinking in terms of the past and future with attachment. When I observed the sudden boom in the erection of Hindu statues in front of business establishments in Bangkok in recent years, I see this as growing superstition as a result of attachment and the lack of understanding. I see the flocking towards, and reasoning in support of, "formal meditation" as similarly motivated. I think there is nothing new that can be said by either of us. So perhaps we should drop this discussion. What do you think? Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132068 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:12 am Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) nichiconn > -------------------------------- > HCW: There is wishing but no wisher. Speaking of "citta wishing" puts citta forward as a wisher, it seems to me. So, your ping peck has been followed by my pong peck! LOLOL! > --------------------------------- agency bots score & go another triple-round -- where things are more about what they seam than what they seem! oops, net foul. wish longs. and i can't recall the other sorts of 'definition' ... agency and ??? > I hope that you and all those you love are very well, Connie!! > =============================== "Exceptionally well, thanks" - all fools who think we're above the law! ... and full of longing, connie #132069 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:29 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha kenhowardau Hi Htoo, I hope you don't mind my continuing this conversation, even though we are never going to reach agreement. ---- >> KH: <. . .> I am sure you *don't* know what I mean. >> > Htoo: I do not know why you feel sure. For me I am reading relaxly. Just see light and colours. ---- KH: If we disagree on the fundamentals then we must disagree on everything. For example, you say you see only light and colours. If someone I fundamentally agreed with had said that, I would have agreed with them; seeing consciousness does indeed see only visible rupas. Concepts are experienced by mind consciousness, not by seeing. So I would have agreed. However, you and I disagree on the fundamentals, and so I have to disagree with you on this too. You, as a sentient being, do not see visible rupas. ----------------- <. . .> >>KH: The teaching I have been talking about does not include trying. > Htoo: :) :) :) Practice is surely required. Trying is surely required. Doing is surely required. For vipassana/satipatthana. Without these there is no true viriya. Wording does not matter when walking path is right. ------------------ KH: By practice we mean satipatthana, don't we? If someone I fundamentally agreed with had said satipatthana was required I would have agreed with them. There has to be satipatthana many, many times before the supramundane path can be reached. However, you and I have a fundamental disagreement, and so I have to disagree with you on this too. Satipatthana is practised by conditioned dhammas, not by people. It is not that kind of practice. ------------------------------ >>> Htoo: I am considering on how many people from DSG is on 'the very present moment' all the time. I think they do only at the time of thinking on dhamma. >> KH: Yes, but that is because you have a different understanding of the present moment. > Htoo: By 'Yes,' do you mean what I assumed is complelely right? ------------------------------- KH: Never! :-) What I mean is: Yes, you see things that way, but you see things differently. You see a world in which there are permanent beings practising satipatthana for long periods of time. The DSG people, who talk so much about the present moment, do not see a world in which there are permanent beings. They see a world in which there are only the presently arisen dhammas, performing their functions and then ceasing. And so they can't possibly think in terms of practising satipatthana for more than just the present moment. ----------------------- <. . .> >> KH: Therefore (according to them) satipatthana cannot possibly be practised for "seven years" or "seven days." It can only be practised now -- in this one, present, moment. > Htoo: I just quoted what the Buddha said. You or any of DSG can assume as you all wish on the words that the Buddha said. ------------------------ KH: The mere repetition of words from the Tipitaka means nothing. You have to know what the Buddha meant. If there are only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas, why did the all-knowing Buddha speak about *people* practising satipatthana for *seven years*? How can that one part of the teaching be understood in the light of the teaching as a whole? That's what we need to know. We don't need to know conventional stories. ----------- >> KH: Theirs is a different way of understanding – very different from the ordinary way - and so it is very hard to explain. > Htoo: The Buddha taught in ordinary way. Everything is not that hard to explain in Buddha way. ----------- KH: Wrong understanding is easy to teach. Anyone can teach a ritualistic religion in which people pray and meditate and receive rewards in the afterlife. The true Dhamma, however, is unique and profound and extremely difficult to grasp. ----------------------- >> KH: I hope you can at least see that you don't see it. >> > Htoo: The thing that does not exist does not need to be seen. ------------------------ KH: Do you mean this "other way of understanding the Dhamma" that I am trying to explain is not even worth considering? What about what K Sujin and her friends? Can you not be bothered trying to understand what they are saying either? ------------------ <. . .> KH: According to those DSG people, the practice requires a completely new, unconventional, understanding. > Htoo: Strange! Do you mean 'the practice requires understanding'. That understanding is a completely new and unconventional? Strange! ------------------ KH: (?) I think our communication has completely broken down. Neither of us knows what the other is talking about! :-) Ken H #132070 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:18 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, Having read the postings carefully, I consider you responded very well to the very extreme religious views indeed. Regards, Sincerely, Thomas #132071 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:24 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, Having read the postings carefully, I consider you responded very well to the very extreme religious views [by Ken H] indeed. Regards, Sincerely, Thomas #132072 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 27 jul 2013, om 14:11 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But I was wondering why in the book it says "kaaya and vinnati rupa" instea of "kayavinnati rupa", ------- N: Spelling mistake? Nina. #132073 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) nilovg Dear Howard, Phil, debate about citta as little actor. Op 27 jul 2013, om 15:56 heeft Upasaka@aol.com het volgende geschreven: > HCW: Well, I'm not looking for an extended debate. My only intention was to point out that atta-view may be more subtle and far-flung than usually realized. ----- N: Yea, there is something in it. We may understand that there are cittas performing different functions, but still we are bound to take citta for self without realizing it. Thus, we have to listen more, consider more, it never is enough. Slowly what we hear sinks in. There was a debate with Htoo about the present reality. There is seeing now and we do not have to think much about it. It has a characteristic and slowly, slowly we can get used to be aware of characteristics without thinking about them. But we need lots of reminders, understanding is so weak. Nina. #132074 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:46 pm Subject: Manly discussion sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, Yesterday, Pt, Ell (from Bangkok), her children and their friends came over to our place in Manly for Dhamma discussion. Ell will be staying in Sydney for a month or two. We had discussions with Pt about ditthi (wrong view) and samatha in particular. When the others arrived, we discussed lots of topics without using Pali terms and always relating the discussions back to the understanding at this moment. Lots of questions about "why study...." and so on. We appreciated everyone's interest a lot. Sarita (Ell's daughter) and her friend were asking more about conditions, so we were glad to be able to give them copies of your book when they left. Perhaps others will elaborate - for Jon & I, we're really rushing around trying to get everything ready for our trip back to Hong Kong and Asia tomorrow, so will probably be quiet for a few days. We had workmen and builders in this morning who have to do some work on our flat while we're away - all a bit of a concern, but just ordinary, daily life dhammas! We talked about being susceptible to all the worldly conditions when there is no understanding of present realities. Ell told us again that even when Ivan (her husband) died, A.Sujin just reminded her that it's so ordinary, so common - inevitable that we lose everything and everyone in this life. Metta Sarah ===== #132075 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:37 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_027 (DT 914 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many siila. Group of two 2. Caaritta siila & vaaritta siila Aabhisamaacaarika & aadibrahmacariyaka Viratii & aviratii Nissita & anissita Kaalapariyanta & aapaa.nako.tika Sapariyanta & apariyanta Lokiya & lokuttaraa Group of three 3. Hiina, majjhima , pa.niita Attaadhipateyya, lokaadhipateyya, dhammaadhipateyya Paraama.t.tha, aparaama.t.tha, pa.tippassaddha Visuddha , avisuddha, vematika Sekkha, asekkha, nevasekkhanaasekkha Group of four 4. Haanabhaagiya, .thitibhaagiya, visesabhaagiya,nibbedhabhaagiya Bhikkhu, bhikkhunii, anupasampanna, gaha.t.tha Pakati, aacaara, dhammataa, pubbahetuka Patimokkhasamvara,indriyasamvara,ajiivaparisuddhi,paccasannissita Gloss:- Haanabhaagiya siila = regressing morality .Thitibhaagiya siila = unprogessing/standing morality Visesabhaagiya siila = special morality Nibbedhabhaagiya siila = penetrating morality Bhikkhu siila (sila of monk), Bhikkhunii siila (sil of nums) Anupasampanna sila(sila of norvice), Gaha.t.tha sila ( sila of householders) Pakati siila (untouched morality), Aacaara siila(disciplinary practice), Dhammataa sila(usual morality), Pubbahetuka sila (sila of former lives' causes) Paatimokkhasa.mvara sila (observers-helping morality), Indriyasa.mvara sila (obstruction of akusala at six doors), Aajiivapaarisuddhi sila( cleanness of livelihood), Paccayasannissita sila (considerate morality Group of five 5. 1.Pariyantapaarisuddhi, 2.apayantapaarisuddhi, 3.paripu.n.napaarisuddhi, 4.aparaama.t.thapaarisuddhi, 5.pa.tipparissaddhipaarisuddhi 1.Pahaana, 2.verama.ni, 3.cetanaa, 4.sa.mvara, 5.aviitikkama Among these what matter are paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila, indriya-sa.mvara siila, aajivapaarisuddhi siila, and paccayasannissita siila are necessary for purification of siila or morality or siila-visuddhi. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-27 DT-914 #132076 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:06 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Phil, et all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hello again. > > Changed my mind. I will find wi-fi in Canada. It's important that as many students of AS as possible keep posting here to de-facilitate a takeover by interlopers like the one that started to happen a few months ago. Nobody else sees it that way, I know, but *I* do and that is what always carries the most weight, of course. > > Stingily yours, > > Phil So, are you saying this list is a war zone??? It's all right if you are, just be honest about it. You know, I came back to this list after a long absence because I missed you guys. I wanted to chat again with you Phil, Sarah and Jon, Howard, Nina, Connie and others. But it seems like I made a mistake. It seems like again if I don't agree with K. Sujin I will be hounded and attacked until I relent and surrender. Considering, your most recent post to me was complete gibberish that you never corrected (even though you posted again you would). Okay, fine, I have just about had enough of this nonsense. I will just permanently unsubscribe from this group if that is the best choice for everyone. Phil, you can be happy that you chased away the "bad guys". But, really, am I such a bad guy? Metta, James #132077 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:20 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Hi James, Good to hear from you and sorry we missed your visit to Hong Kong. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Phil > > So, are you saying this list is a war zone??? It's all right if you are, just be honest about it. You know, I came back to this list after a long absence because I missed you guys. I wanted to chat again with you Phil, Sarah and Jon, Howard, Nina, Connie and others. But it seems like I made a mistake. It seems like again if I don't agree with K. Sujin I will be hounded and attacked until I relent and surrender. ... S: Don't worry about it - let's just discuss Dhamma together. Disagreements are always welcome and no one will be hounded! For example, Htoo is having all sorts of disagreements with friends here, but it's just healthy discussion. He thinks he's helping us correct our views and we think we're helping him correct his:-) Do you still read suttas? I remember when we used to discuss suttas from SN together in a helpful way. Metta Sarah ====== #132078 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi James, > > Good to hear from you and sorry we missed your visit to Hong Kong. I'm really sorry we missed that visit also!! I wanted you to meet Sebastian since I wrote so much about him to you before. But I am glad that you are enjoying your international travels. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > > > Phil > > > > So, are you saying this list is a war zone??? It's all right if you are, just be honest about it. You know, I came back to this list after a long absence because I missed you guys. I wanted to chat again with you Phil, Sarah and Jon, Howard, Nina, Connie and others. But it seems like I made a mistake. It seems like again if I don't agree with K. Sujin I will be hounded and attacked until I relent and surrender. > ... > S: Don't worry about it - let's just discuss Dhamma together. Disagreements are always welcome and no one will be hounded! > Thank you Sarah for saying that. Because as you know even in the Buddha's time there was a marked difference between meditating monks and studding monks...and it was never resolved. (We all have to start from where we are....) > For example, Htoo is having all sorts of disagreements with friends here, but it's just healthy discussion. He thinks he's helping us correct our views and we think we're helping him correct his:-) > I think that is really great! When someone really mixes with you and talks to you and tries to understand you, that is compassion. If you don't agree with his advice then you can simply disagree with it without causing him harm....since he was compassionate to you. > Do you still read suttas? I remember when we used to discuss suttas from SN together in a helpful way. > Gosh, I really miss my printed suttas. I will probably order them again soon since I can in my current location. > Metta > > Sarah > ====== Much much metta and love to you Sarah!!! James > #132079 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Howard, Phil, > debate about citta as little actor. > Op 27 jul 2013, om 15:56 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > HCW: Well, I'm not looking for an extended debate. My only intention was to point out that atta-view may be more subtle and far-flung than usually realized. > ----- > N: Yea, there is something in it. We may understand that there are cittas performing different functions, but still we are bound to take citta for self without realizing it. Thus, we have to listen more, consider more, it never is enough. --------------------------------- HCW: Thank you, Nina. I think that yes, you are right on target! -------------------------------- Slowly what we hear sinks in. --------------------------------- HCW: Yes, if we don't resist it, and it is right. ------------------------------ > There was a debate with Htoo about the present reality. There is seeing now and we do not have to think much about it. It has a characteristic and slowly, slowly we can get used to be aware of characteristics without thinking about them. But we need lots of reminders, understanding is so weak. ----------------------------- HCW: :-) ------------------------------ > Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Manly discussion nilovg Dear Sarah and Ell, How good you had discussions in Manly and that Ell is around. Op 29 jul 2013, om 09:46 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Ell told us again that even when Ivan (her husband) died, A.Sujin just reminded her that it's so ordinary, so common - inevitable that we lose everything and everyone in this life. ------- N: Yes, but when it does happen it is hard to take. Ann reminded me in Huahin that we all have different accumulations and react differently. The reminders Kh Sujin gave me at the ceremony in the temple for Ivan are most precious for me. And also on the boat at sea when we released his ashes. I listened many times to the recordings and I cannot express how these helped me to bear my loss. ------ Nina. #132081 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:27 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi James, Hiward, all No, no not a war zone. But in my opinion since listening to the Dhamma from a wise frend is a key factor in developing understanding of Dhamma I would like the list to be in line with the description on the home page. In my opinion people who know that the way Dhamma is explained by AS is not for them should bow out. But that is an excessive and obnoxious opinion. At the very least they should not set an agenda that is all about forcing students of AS ( for whom this list was set up originaly) to defend themselves in debate. (Thatvwould be the work of an interloper.) That is what a certain someone (not here now) was doing a few months ago, acting as a moderator (more or less) to shape the whole direction of the board. He is really the only person whose presence here would make me either fight or flee. Hopefully he will show common sense and stick to moderating his own list from from now on. Anyways, I will stay away during my vacation. Enjoy your dscussions, James, Howard, all (almost.) Phil #132082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 26 jul 2013, om 05:11 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > Thomas: The term, abhidhamma, is not found in the SN suttas (PTS, Pali-English Dictionary, p. 65). ------ N: You find it in M I, 214, 218. But what does abhidhamma really mean, that is more important than just tracing a term. Higher dhamma, dhamma in detail is a translation. Let me first deal with paramattha dhamma. ------ > > Th: The term, paramattha dhammaa (or paramattha), seems also not found in the Vibhanga Abbhidhamma, which its topics bear certain resemblance to the structure of the SN suttas collection (The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 242, 252). The Vibhanga Abbhidhamma is considered to be the oldest in the Abhidhammapitaka (Oskar von Hinuber, A Handbook of the Pali Literature, p. 69). > > According to the SN suttas, the Buddha did not use the term paramattha dhammaa (or paramattha) for his teachings. ------ N: Paramattha: in the highest sense, truth in the highest sense. The term you may not find in the suttas, but what it means, that is another matter. The meaning is more important than just knowing the term. We read that the Buddha said: ruupakkhandha is anicca, impermanent, vedanaakkhandha is anicca, etc. and so for all khandhas. He spoke about dhaatus, elements as well. This was a new teaching, not heard before. We all are used to the conventional world of persons, things which exist. It seems that the tree we look at was there already for some time. Thomas, Sarah, Nina, we all take for granted that we can meet these persons and that they are there at least for some time. We can say this is the conventional world we always knew and we are used to. The Buddha taught us that what we take for beings and things are only elements that arise because of their own conditions, that arise and fall away immediately. He taught us the truth in the highest sense. This is different from the conventional reality. He taught us the wisdom that can directly know all conditioned elements, which are beyond control, which have no owner, which arise and then pass away immediately. It is not just thinking: a person does not last, he is impermanent. Everybody can think like that. We do not need the Buddha's teaching in order to know that. We can learn that what we take for a person are ever changing elements. Realities appear one at a time through the doorways of the senses and the mind-door. In this way we learn what the truth is in the highest sense. It is not important how we call it, we can call it paramattha dhamma, or dhamma, or abhidhamma. It is beyond words. The same for cetasikas, you also said that the word is not found in the suttas. The Buddha taught about all of them: the hindrances, the jhaanafactors, the aasavas, kusala qualities, akusala qualities and those who are neither. Do you like to call them mental coefficients? The Aupada sutta (M III, p. 78 PTS edition) is very useful. No need to call them cetasikas, you can call them by another name. It is essential to understand the difference between the conventional world and the truth in the highest sense that only a Buddha can teach. Then it will matter less what words are used to express the meaning of the truth. Words can be Pali, English, Thai, whatever language you choose. ------ Nina. #132083 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:36 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Dear Howard I know Nina values your participation here greatly (as I'm sure almost everyone does) so I hope you will disregard my silly call to arms ( which wasn't about you) and continue to post. Thanks. ^_^ Phil #132084 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:56 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada upasaka_howard Dear Phil - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Howard > > I know Nina values your participation here greatly (as I'm sure almost everyone does) so I hope you will disregard my silly call to arms ( which wasn't about you) and continue to post. Thanks. ^_^ > > Phil > ============================= Very kind of you, Phil! Thank you very much. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132085 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:13 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada nichiconn dear drive-by phil, > Anyways, I will stay away during my vacation. Enjoy your dscussions, James, Howard, all (almost.) > there's no vacation & Howard's already made it clear he's looking for a blood-bath - did you miss his 'take no prisoners' stance? Watch out for hair-trigger RobE, tho... "we hit the deck a-runnin' and we spun those guns around!" connie ps. they killed Elmer yesterday. what now? pss. i'd like MY prisoner back. #132086 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: anattaa. htoonaing... Sukin: Hello Htoo, Robert K, Sarah, When Robert passed through Bangkok a few days ago and we got a chance to meet, one thing I suggested to him was that I believe that I am two rooted and not triple rooted. This I said because I believe that I somewhat mentally retarded. In referring to what he believes to be some level of understanding on my part, Robert did not agree with me. But I was quick to remind him that being two rooted, one can still develop understanding, only not have any attainments. Later that day, the topic about Culapanthaka arose. And I said that sometimes I am encouraged by his story because like me, Culapanthaka was slow to comprehend verbal instructions and making sense of the conventional world in general. Robert instantly pointed out to me, that Culapanthaka was triple rooted! I think Htoo, you are wrong to make a connection between intelligence and wisdom, and being dumb and being foolish. There is no such connection. Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No connection with external appearances. Math professors may also be double rooted. Manual laborer who is illiterate may well be triple-rooted. We cannot know. Only the Buddha know such matter. In samatha double-rooted person can reach upacaara-jhaana (pre-jhaana) but not to the level of appanaa-jhaana. He can accumulate paaramii in this life and if he is reborn next life with triple-rooted he may attain appanaa-jhaana. In vipassanaa double rooted people may see up to sa`nkhaarupekkhaa ~naa.na. But not to anuloma-leading-to-gotrabhu-magga-phala and nibbaana just in this life. So he deserves to study and accumulate panna. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132087 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:55 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi James, Hiward, all > > > No, no not a war zone. But in my opinion since listening to the Dhamma from a wise frend is a key factor in developing understanding of Dhamma I would like the list to be in line with the description on the home page. In my opinion people who know that the way Dhamma is explained by AS is not for them should bow out. But that is an excessive and obnoxious opinion. At the very least they should not set an agenda that is all about forcing students of AS ( for whom this list was set up originaly) to defend themselves in debate. James: I didn't think that this list was set up for students of K. Sujin. I thought it was set up to discuss the Tipitaka, including the commentaries. I stopped participating because I began to realize that I no longer believe in the Tipitaka as a whole- had nothing to do with K. Sujin or her students. I don't believe in the Abhidhamma, Commentaries, or Vinaya (in regards to women), and I even find some suttas suspect. So, I am definitely not a Theravada Buddhist anymore. I am some currently undefined category of Buddhist...maybe a New Age Buddhist?? (Thatvwould be the work of an interloper.) That is what a certain someone (not here now) was doing a few months ago, acting as a moderator (more or less) to shape the whole direction of the board. He is really the only person whose presence here would make me either fight or flee. Hopefully he will show common sense and stick to moderating his own list from from now on. > Hmmm...I am curious as to this interloper who go you so riled up. I guess I missed all the excitement. > > Anyways, I will stay away during my vacation. Enjoy your dscussions, James, Howard, all (almost.) > > Phil > Metta, James #132088 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:38 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi James and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > No, no not a war zone. But in my opinion since listening to the Dhamma from a wise frend is a key factor in developing understanding of Dhamma I would like the list to be in line with the description on the home page. In my opinion people who know that the way Dhamma is explained by AS is not for them should bow out. But that is an excessive and obnoxious opinion. At the very least they should not set an agenda that is all about forcing students of AS ( for whom this list was set up originaly) to defend themselves in debate. > > > James: I didn't think that this list was set up for students of K. Sujin. I thought it was set up to discuss the Tipitaka, including the commentaries. If the list is meant to be restricted to the specific interpretations of Dhamma of K. Sujin, this view is *not* reflected in anything the moderators and senior followers of K. Sujin do or say on this list. Sarah, Jon and Nina will certainly defend their understand as inspired by K. Sujin as they should rightly do, since that is their true perspective developed over many years of study, but they never really impose it on others or judge the various views and arguments that they get from those of us "outside the fold" to one extent or another. It's their way of including others that is important, since they are really the "keepers of the list." Others who are less mature may argue in a more vehement way, but that's all part of their own growth process, and often reflects an imperfect development of understanding, which all of us, of whatever perspective, should understand and use as an opportunity to develop patience. Since patience is sometimes said to be the most important quality by the Buddha, we should take that seriously and look carefully at what others say - myself included of course. Without patience we'll never perservere in finding out the truth, and embodying the higher states of awareness, which is very gradual and obstructed by various obstacles and defilements. I think that it's the moderators intention to promote the true Dhamma, which is represented by the understanding of someone who is very wise like K. Sujin, but not to be exclusive about it or block other views. Every person who comes here is in a process of development, and every interaction here has some effect on that gradual process. > I stopped participating because I began to realize that I no longer believe in the Tipitaka as a whole- had nothing to do with K. Sujin or her students. I don't believe in the Abhidhamma, Commentaries, or Vinaya (in regards to women), and I even find some suttas suspect. So, I am definitely not a Theravada Buddhist anymore. I am some currently undefined category of Buddhist...maybe a New Age Buddhist?? Whatever your perspective is, James, whenever you are here you always contribute something of value. Even if you can't easily identify what that value is, you definitely change the tone of some discussions when you get into them. That should be enough to make you comfortable being here, even if you disagree with everyone on both sides of the issues. I'm always happy when I "see" you around, as with Howard and others. I even acknowledge the flavor that is added to a discussion by Ken H., whom I've gotten to like over the years, and I'm working on Phil. :-) > (That would be the work of an interloper.) That is what a certain someone (not here now) was doing a few months ago, acting as a moderator (more or less) to shape the whole direction of the board. He is really the only person whose presence here would make me either fight or flee. Hopefully he will show common sense and stick to moderating his own list from from now on. > > > > Hmmm...I am curious as to this interloper who go you so riled up. I guess I missed all the excitement. I'd like to know who that was too! It couldn't have been me, cause I'm still here...! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #132089 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:44 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > there's no vacation & Howard's already made it clear he's looking for a blood-bath - did you miss his 'take no prisoners' stance? > Watch out for hair-trigger RobE, tho... > > "we hit the deck a-runnin' and we spun those guns around!" Yeah, I wrote that - shooting randomly, just to see who I might be able to hit, is my favorite hobby! > ps. they killed Elmer yesterday. what now? Who's Elmer? > pss. i'd like MY prisoner back. All our prisoners are staring back at us in the mirror. Ciao for now - Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #132090 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:07 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, Op 26 jul 2013, om 05:11 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > Thomas: The term, abhidhamma, is not found in the SN suttas (PTS, Pali-English Dictionary, p. 65). --- > N: You find it in M I, 214, 218. But what does abhidhamma really mean, that is more important than just tracing a term. Higher dhamma, dhamma in detail is a translation. Thomas: According to the PTS Pali-English Dictionary, p. 65, the term abhidhamma is also found in D III.267, and the term "probably came into use only towards the end of the period in which the 4 great Nikaayas grew up". Note: The Abhidhamma collections were not taught by the historical Buddha. ------------ > Th: The term, paramattha dhammaa (or paramattha), seems also not found in the Vibhanga Abbhidhamma, which its topics bear certain resemblance to the structure of the SN suttas collection (The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 242, 252). The Vibhanga Abbhidhamma is considered to be the oldest in the Abhidhammapitaka (Oskar von Hinuber, A Handbook of the Pali Literature, p. 69). > > According to the SN suttas, the Buddha did not use the term paramattha dhammaa (or paramattha) for his teachings. --- > N: Let me first deal with paramattha dhamma. > N: Paramattha: in the highest sense, truth in the highest sense. The term you may not find in the suttas, but what it means, that is another matter. The meaning is more important than just knowing the term. … We read that the Buddha said: ruupakkhandha is anicca, impermanent, … It is essential to understand the difference between the conventional world and the truth in the highest sense that only a Buddha can teach. Then it will matter less what words are used to express the meaning of the truth. Words can be Pali, English, Thai, whatever language you choose. Thomas: I certainly have no problem with the meaning of the Buddha's teachings: `anicca, dukkha, anatta', which clearly indicated in the suttas (particularly the SN suttas). As I said before, the reasons why I object to the use of the term "paramattha dhamma" are: First, the Buddha did not use the term for his teachings (particularly according to the SN suttas) ; second, the concept of `paramattha dhamma' is being used in the sense (or theory) of a metaphysical entity (absolute reality), which is far away from the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism; and finally, according to the SN suttas , there is no need to name paramattha dhamma or absolute reality (for both the five aggregates and nibbana), but to see (passati) and to know (jaanaati) directly bodily and mental phenomena 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', as 'the middle way', and as the dhammas of `pa.ticcasamuppaada'. Note: I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are only dhammas, or everything itself is dhamma", which is the expression in the sense of a metaphysical entity. But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees and knows bodily and mental phenomena as, for example, `anicca, dukkha, anatta'. Regards, Thomas #132091 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:58 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ------- <. . .> > T: Note: I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are only dhammas, ------- KH: We would not expect the Buddha to say that. It is a tautology. It says, `In reality there are only realities.' As Dhamma students we often say it because we need to be reminded about the difference between concepts and realities. We need to be reminded there is no atta; there are only dhammas. ---------------- > T: or everything itself is dhamma", ---------------- KH: I don't know who you are quoting there. It is true that everything is Dhamma (with a capital D). Maybe that is what you are quoting. Dhamma in that sense means "the way things are in ultimate reality, as described by the Buddha." Everything that ultimately exists here and now is exactly as the Buddha described it. ------------------------------ > T: which is the expression in the sense of a metaphysical entity. ------------------------------ KH: Again, I don't know who you are quoting. I don't know who (apart from our Mahayana members) has said that dhammas were metaphysical (hypothetical, theoretical) entities. According to our Theravada students they are *absolutely real* entities. -------------------------------------------- > T: But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees and knows bodily and mental phenomena as, for example, `anicca, dukkha, anatta'. --------------------------------------------- KH: As Nina has explained, those bodily and mental phenomena are rupas and namas respectively. They bear the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. I think you are saying there are no namas or rupas, there are just the three characteristics. But I am reluctant to say that in case I am accused again of making incorrect assumptions. Perhaps you could tell us if that is what you mean. Ken H #132092 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:31 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- "Ken H" wrote: > ... > Ken H: It is true that everything is Dhamma (with a capital D). ... Dhamma in that sense means "the way things are in ultimate reality, as described by the Buddha. Everything that ultimately exists here and now is exactly as the Buddha described it. Thomas: " ... everything is Dhamma ... ultimately exists …"? Which Pali sutta (s) records the Buddha as saying that? > Ken H: According to our Theravada students they are *absolutely real* entities. Thomas: " ... *absolutely real* entities."? Which Pali sutta (s) records the Buddha as saying that? Thomas #132093 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:07 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada nichiconn RobE! > > "we hit the deck a-runnin' and we spun those guns around!" > > Yeah, I wrote that - shooting randomly, just to see who I might be able to hit, is my favorite hobby! > and calling it friendly fire i am. missed me because i've just crawled out from not-saying where, since the earlier (May, but not '41) outbust. My (dueling) second said it was safe - that you'd engaged another (enemy). Another possible answer for "second" would be "lobha". but yeah, the real enemy's always (my) akusala. > > ps. they killed Elmer yesterday. what now? > > Who's Elmer? > There is no Elmer. Nice thing about saying that about the dead is that it seems easier for people to swallow. Elmer might've been pork. Even so, we/I listened, usually, when i stayed at his place, to Lodewijk reading Perfections. There's no internet there & last time i went, i was going to engage, i mean talk, with ImhoTep when i got back, but he's gone another sort of underground, it seems. Could he really be a mole? > > pss. i'd like MY prisoner back. > > All our prisoners are staring back at us in the mirror. > are you paranoid, too, gunslinger? connie "Look, this is how it sounds!" - a music teacher (a) cakkhudhaatu, (b) ruupadhaatu, (c) cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatu, (a) the eye, (b) visible shape, (c) visual cognition, (d) sotadhaatu, (e) saddadhaatu, (f) sotavi~n~naa.nadhaatu, (d) the ear, (e) sound, (f) auditory cognition, ... - a buddhist teacher #132094 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:14 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas nichiconn mr T, > Note: The Abhidhamma collections were not taught by the historical Buddha. > were you there, cholly? word has it the traditional buddha did so. gods as my witness. connie #132095 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:24 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas kenhowardau Hi Thomas. You have ignored my questions again, but that is your prerogative. ----- <. . .> > T: " ... *absolutely real* entities."? Which Pali sutta (s) records the Buddha as saying that? ----- KH: All suttas record the Buddha as saying that. Or can you name one that doesn't? Can you name a sutta in which the Buddha describes something unreal (non-existent) as being inherently impermanent, unsatisfactory and devoid of atta? Ken H #132096 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: Re: spd 24 (bodily intimation) nichiconn here, connie, a quote from cma: The Pali word citta is derived from the verbal root citi, to cognize, to know. The commentators define citta in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes an object (arammanam cinteti ti cittam). As an instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etena cintenti ti cittam). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamattam cittam). The third definition, in terms of sheer activity, is regarded as the most adequate of the three: that is, citta is fundamentally an activity or process of cognizing or knowng an object. It is not an agent or instrument possessing actual being in itself apart from the activity of cognizing. The definition of terms of agent and instrument are proposed to refute the wrong view of those who hold that a permanent self or ego is the agent and instrument of cognition. The Buddhist thinkers point out, by means of these definitions, that it is not a self that performs the act of cognition, but citta or consciousness. This citta is nothing other that the act of cognizing, and that act is necessarily impermanent, marked by rise and fall. taken from dhammawheel via google. c. > ... i can't recall the other sorts of 'definition' ... agency and ??? > #132097 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:20 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Rob E, Nice to chat with you again! I hope the classes are going well. > > If the list is meant to be restricted to the specific interpretations of Dhamma of K. Sujin, this view is *not* reflected in anything the moderators and senior followers of K. Sujin do or say on this list. James: Yeah, exactly. If the goal of Sarah, Jon, and Nina is to proselytize the teachings of K. Sujin, they are doing a piss poor job at it! :-))) They let just about anyone post to the group and they are patient and tolerant with the most absurd and ridiculous emotional outbursts (including my own. :-))) I have seen the Mormons in action in Taiwan and that is no way to proselytize a new religion!!! They would have to be much more efficient and cruel (note to k.sujin headquarters. :-)). Sarah, Jon and Nina will certainly defend their understand as inspired by K. Sujin as they should rightly do, since that is their true perspective developed over many years of study, but they never really impose it on others or judge the various views and arguments that they get from those of us "outside the fold" to one extent or another. James: I agree. As Howard so rightly puts time after time "We all start from where we are." And I would like to add that it isn't from where we would like to be or from where others would like us to be!!! Yeah!! Double emphasis on Yeah!! lol It's their way of including others that is important, since they are really the "keepers of the list." Others who are less mature may argue in a more vehement way, but that's all part of their own growth process, and often reflects an imperfect development of understanding, which all of us, of whatever perspective, should understand and use as an opportunity to develop patience. James: Okay, here I think you are referring to me and how I can go psycho on the list....and I don't like it one bit...;-))) just kidding. Since patience is sometimes said to be the most important quality by the Buddha James: Actually, I don't think the Buddha ever said that. He was not the most patient guy around. He knew what was at steak (ie. Hair on fire and all that). The "patience mantra" is a Jewish thing. , we should take that seriously and look carefully at what others say - myself included of course. Without patience we'll never perservere in finding out the truth, and embodying the higher states of awareness, which is very gradual and obstructed by various obstacles and defilements. > James: Look, I have no time for patience! My time on this earth is very limited and I want to make the most of it. I get sick to death of people calling for patience!! Patience isn't a virtue, it is a blinding mechanism. Really, there is no time for patience and the Buddha never taught about patience in the face of extreme suffering. > > Whatever your perspective is, James, whenever you are here you always contribute something of value. Even if you can't easily identify what that value is, you definitely change the tone of some discussions when you get into them. That should be enough to make you comfortable being here, even if you disagree with everyone on both sides of the issues. James: Well, I don't know about that, but I probably changed the tone of this discussion in a hurry. If anything, that is what I add to any discussion. I don't want to wait around; I want to find the truth in a hurry. That is why I have traveled the world with hardly any money. Where there is a will there is always a way... It is always to find the truth. > > > > Hmmm...I am curious as to this interloper who go you so riled up. I guess I missed all the excitement. > > I'd like to know who that was too! It couldn't have been me, cause I'm still here...! :-) > James: Oh, there is little I like better than a good mystery. If it wasn't you and it wasn't me, then it had to be.......Connie! That little minx caused all these problems! :-)) > Best, > Rob E. > Metta, James #132098 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:34 pm Subject: Re: T.A. on Sunday (July 28), live. Remembrance, sa~n~naa. jagkrit2012 Dear Nina and friends JK: Thank you very much for your transcription. The topic about sanna is very interesting and you covered all important treads in the discussion. > The sutta speaks about aniccaa sa~n~naa, sa~n~naa that remembers impermanence. jK: This is very good reminder that sanna remembers all the time but what sanna remembers at this moment. If sanna remember atta about self view now, how can one develop right understanding. I think intellectual understanding is very important for us to start develop right sanna. Even this sanna is not aniccaa and anattaa sanna but this sanna should be the foundation of further development of right thinking until it understands the reality. You have any comment for consideration ? ================= > As to asubha sa~n~naa, remembrance of foulness, of things as not beautiful, this is not just thinking. Jk: At this point TA stressed that if that thing is impermanence as arising and falling away right before our conscious, is it beautiful ? I have a lot of thought about this. If one can see through this fact, it should be more clear that there is no such any beautiful of that at all. > T.a.:< Is there now asubha? We think of foulness but it is not a matter of thinking. We do not have to force ourselves not to like something. That does not lead to the eradication of defilements. There should be more understanding of what appears. We have to listen again, and know that it is dhamma, not self, not a person. Jk: Again shape reminder. Without right understanding, one might misunderstand about asubha sanna and try to dislike things by self view. AN 7.46 PTS: A iv 46 Sañña Sutta: Perceptions translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu "Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in what is inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is stressful......... This sanna sutta mentions about the benefit of 7 sannas. But I think to develop of 7 sannas, we need very high level of understanding before accessing to right development. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132099 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:18 pm Subject: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Buddho viharati. The Buddha dwelled in fully mindful state. The first time that He passed the rainy season is called 1st vassa. 2nd for 2nd and so on. When just before 7th vassa the Buddha showed the twin-miracle and after that He ascend the 2nd deva state called taavati.msaa ( taa = 3, ti.msa = 30, taavati.msa = 33, this is the state where 33 people reborn as devas and they when in humanly state were led by Mr. Maagha, who became the king of deva states). There the Buddha took the chair of deva-king (sakka raaja or devaana-inda/devaanaminda) for preaching on abhidhamma. It is called pa.n.dukambalaa maniselaa. (I think the color is red). When the Buddha was just going to sit on that deva-king thought in his mind "Buddha is human being and my chair is deva-chair. There would be a lot of spare space where the Buddha would not have taken". The Buddha knew this and He sat so that there was no spare space on that deva-chair of pa.n.dukambalaa maniselaa. Only after seeing this deva-king became satisfied with what the Buddha did on his chair. The Buddha went there to preach abhidhamma. Main reason is to serve back His former/late mother, who was reborn in deva state. The dose of dhammas preached there was so concentrated that no human being can digest it. Human beings would not be able to even listen from the beginning to the end. From view of devas (here deva include devas and brahmas) the Buddha preached continuously for three human calendar months. So this dhamma that is "Abhidhamma" is not for human beings. The Buddha was a human being. So He had to have meal. When meal time came the Buddha left an identical Buddha (nimmita Buddha) preaching abhidhamma and He Himself went to Uttara Kuru Island where Saariputta served Him for meal. When with Saariputta the Buddha preached abhidhamma in short briefly for the second time. The Buddha never preached "Abhidhamma" for the third time in this whole universe. First time when He preached was to devas (devas and brahmas). The second time was just a summary on what He had preached to devas and this was to Saariputta. But Abhidhamma is what the Buddha preached. The longest version was in deva state and it never existed in tipitaka. The shortest version was the summary preached to Saariputta at Uttara Kuru Island ( one of the four great Island surrounding Mount Meru ). While the Buddha was preaching "Abhidhamma" in deva state Saariputta re-preached the shortest version making median version to 500 disciples. These 500 disciples were very new monks. When the Buddha finished the longest version in deva state Saariputta also finished his median version in three months. Buddha NEVER preached "Abhidhamma" on this earth (Jambhuu diipa or southern island). So there was no record of original version of "Abhidhamma" as taught by the Buddha. The shortest version was just a summary to Saariputta and it never arised to the surface (that is Saariputta never preached the shortest version to his disciples 500). The median version was passed on and taught to his disciple 500 who were new monks. At the end of three months all these 500 monks became arahats. Except this there was no arahat who just studied "Abhidhamma". Aananda wept when the Buddha was just going to pass away. The Buddha said "Aananda, do not weep/cry. I have preached 'dhamma and vinaya'. When your teacher (the Buddha) pass away, this 'dhamma and vinaya' will be your teacher. Here the Buddha definitely said 'dhamma and vinaya'. (Ref: Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m_mahaavagga_diighanikaaya) There is no mentioning on "Abhidhamma". The Buddha never preached "Abhidhamma" to human beings except Saariputta. So "Abhidhamma" was not in there 'dhamma & vinaya'. Except to Saariputta, the Buddha never preached "Abhidhamma" to anyone. When in first sermon of Theravadan monks called 'sa`ngaayanaa' the leader Pippali Kassapa called out what to first revise. The group agreed to recite 'vinaya' first because 'vinaya' or 'rules for monks(and nums)' is the life of Buddha's Saasanaa. After vinaya the group went on to recite on dhamma. This dhamma was "what the Buddha taught in 45 years". It was systematically piled up into 4 nikaaya namely Diigha Nikaaya (Long Saying), Majjhima Nikaaya (Middle-length Saying), Samyutta Nikaaya(Sorted Saying), and A`nguttara Nikaaya(One-part exceeding Saying). Even in Cha.t.thasa`ngaayanaa (6th Buddhists' Council) there described as 4 nikaaya. The record in sound-file is still there in Myanmar. At the 1st Buddhists Council duties were assigned to several Theras or thera monks. The duty was to recite the assigned texts by heart and pass on to next generations. The disciples of B. Kassapa, B.Upaali, B. Aananda, B. Saariputta were to recite their respective texts. "Abidhamma" was passed on by recitation by the disciples of B.Saariputta. There were 7 texts. They are 1. Dhammasa`nganii 2. Vibha`nga 3. Dhaatukathaa 4. Puggalapa~n~natti 5. Kathaavatthu 6. Yamaka 7. Pa.t.thaana All these 7 texts are just the median version of so called "Abhidhamma". Kathaavatthu was originally concise and was not such long as in today texts. But the problems were there just before 3rd Buddhists' Council. At that time Emperor Ashoka or Aasoka was very powerful. Theravadan monks normally have to enter "Simaa", the building for monks' affairs twice a month. There they all have to listen what the leader monk call out "Paatimokkha siila". At the end of calling out for uncleaness on siila if the group do not say anything they all are pure in Paatimokkha siila". Some time after 2nd Buddhists' Council Buddhist monks were prosperous and other religions lacked good offerings by their believers. So they entered the Buddhists' circle of teaching or Buddha's Saasana. Since then the Saasana was not pure as new monks did not abide vinaya and to the worst they preached their own old belief 'atta view'. Sa.mghaa or true Buddhist monks did not do Uposatha Kamma together with impure accompaniments. King Asoka treated this matter. But his way was wrong and this was helped by his nephew Arahat 'Nigrodha' and later the new Buddhists Council became necessary. As the teaching was mixed with many impure views, thoughts, non-Buddha's teachings the "Abhidhamma" in the section of Kathaavatthu was expanded and explained in very detail by the leader monk of 3rd Council. Abhidhamma, Jaataka, Buddhava.msa, Anaagatava.msa, Vinaya, and many others were grouped as 'Khuddaka Nikaaya'. Abhidhamma is to be studied. It is like pathophysiology of diesases, the knowledge of which if not there diseases cannot be effectively treated or even cured. Sutta.ms are like treatment regimens for kilesa-diseases. If recipes are understood, formula is right, contents are checked in detail, medicine is made, and then medicine is taken by kilesa-loaded-people then his kilesa-disease will be cured. If MEDICINE is not taken the kilesa-disease will not be cured or eradicated even though the formula of regimens is understood. UNDERSTANDING is not enough to cure kilesa-disease. It is needed to drink "SUTTA.M" medicine to cure or eradicate kilesa-disease. Paramattha is not in any of the teachings of the Buddha. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #132100 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:05 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_028 (DT 915 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many siila. Group of two 2. Caaritta siila & vaaritta siila Aabhisamaacaarika & aadibrahmacariyaka Viratii & aviratii Nissita & anissita Kaalapariyanta & aapaa.nako.tika Sapariyanta & apariyanta Lokiya & lokuttaraa Group of three 3. Hiina, majjhima , pa.niita Attaadhipateyya, lokaadhipateyya, dhammaadhipateyya Paraama.t.tha, aparaama.t.tha, pa.tippassaddha Visuddha , avisuddha, vematika Sekkha, asekkha, nevasekkhanaasekkha Group of four 4. Haanabhaagiya, .thitibhaagiya, visesabhaagiya, nibbedhabhaagiya Bhikkhu, bhikkhunii, anupasammanna, gaha.t.tha Pakati, aacaara, dhammataa, pubbahetuka Patimokkhasamvara,indriyasamvara,ajivaparisuddhi,paccasannissita Group of five 5.Pariyantaparisuddhi, apariyantaparisuddhi, paripu.n.napaarisuddhi, aparaama.t.thapaarisuddhi, pa.tippassaddhipaarisuddhi Pahaana, verama.ni, cetanaa, sa.mvara, aviitikkama Gloss-: Pariyantapaarisuddhi siila = limited siila (like 5 precepts, 8 precepts, 10 precepts) Apariyantapaarisuddhi siila = limitless siila (time scale) Paripu.n.napaarisuddhi siila = siila of puthujana from true vipassanaa to gotrabhu nana Aparaama.t.thapaarisuddhi siila = siila of 7 sekkha (non-arahat ariyas) Pa.tippassaddhipaarisuddhi siila = siila of arahats Pahaana siila = substraction of bad things Verama.ni = avoidance Cetanaa = volition against doing bad things Sa.mvara siila = obstruction to doing bad things Aviitikkama siila = non-committing siila Among these what matter are paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila, indriya-sa.mvara siila, aajivapaarisuddhi siila, and paccayasannissita siila are necessary for purification of siila or morality or siila-visuddhi. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-28 DT-915 #132101 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: T.A. on Sunday (July 28), live. Remembrance, sa~n~naa. nilovg Dear Jagkrit, It is always good to correspond with you. Op 30 jul 2013, om 12:34 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > > The sutta speaks about aniccaa sa~n~naa, sa~n~naa that remembers impermanence. > > jK: This is very good reminder that sanna remembers all the time but what sanna remembers at this moment. If sanna remember atta about self view now, how can one develop right understanding. I think intellectual understanding is very important for us to start develop right sanna. Even this sanna is not aniccaa and anattaa sanna but this sanna should be the foundation of further development of right thinking until it understands the reality. You have any comment for consideration ? ------ N: We have to remember that tiira sa~n~naa, firm sa~n~naa is one of the proximate causes of satipa.t.thaana. We should consider what this firm sa~n~naa remembers: everything is just dhamma, it arises because of its own conditions and there is no person who could interfere. Like Acharn said: who could make seeing arise, it arises when there are conditions for it. And evenso sati: nobody could cause its arising. Listening to the right teachings is most essential. We have to hear again and again that there are two kinds of realities: the reality that experiences something and the reality that does not know anything. Dhammas just appear for an extremely short moment and then disappear, and it is wrong to assume that there is a person there. We are so used to the idea that a person or a thing was already there and that it can stay. We have to be reminded again and again that the conventional world is only what we always assumed to be real before we heard the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha taught what is there in truth and in reality. > > ================= > > > As to asubha sa~n~naa, remembrance of foulness, of things as not beautiful, this is not just thinking. > > Jk: At this point TA stressed that if that thing is impermanence as arising and falling away right before our conscious, is it beautiful ? I have a lot of thought about this. If one can see through this fact, it should be more clear that there is no such any beautiful of that at all. > > > T.a.:< Is there now asubha? We think of foulness but it is not a matter of thinking. We do not have to force ourselves not to like something. That does not lead to the eradication of defilements. There should be more understanding of what appears. We have to listen again, and know that it is dhamma, not self, not a person. > > Jk: Again shape reminder. Without right understanding, one might misunderstand about asubha sanna and try to dislike things by self view. > > AN 7.46 PTS: A iv 46 > Sañña Sutta: Perceptions > translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > > This sanna sutta mentions about the benefit of 7 sannas. But I think to develop of 7 sannas, we need very high level of understanding before accessing to right development. ------ N: Even when we begin to understand what dhamma is there can also be a beginning of the understanding of the seven perceptions. We do not have to take it that first pa~n~naa has to be developed further and that then the seven perceptions can be developed. They become clearer as understanding grows and there is no need to think of the seven perceptions. Acharn would say: not the terms are important, but understand the meaning. She would ask us: is there anattaa sa~n~naa now? If the present reality is considered more we learn that realities are beyond control, that they do not belong to anyone. Is this not a beginning of anatta sa~n~naa? -------- Nina. #132102 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:25 am Subject: Understanding & Undertaking htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhidhamma is to be studied. It is like pathophysiology of diesases, the knowledge of which if not there, diseases cannot be effectively treated or even cured. Sutta.ms are like treatment regimens for kilesa-diseases. If recipes are understood, formula is right, contents are checked in detail, medicine is made, and then medicine is taken by kilesa-loaded-people then his kilesa-disease will be cured. If MEDICINE is not taken the kilesa-disease will not be cured or eradicated even though the formula of regimens is understood. UNDERSTANDING is not enough to cure kilesa-disease. It is needed to drink "SUTTA.M" medicine to cure or eradicate kilesa-disease. Paramattha is not in any of the teachings of the Buddha. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #132103 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:44 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) nichiconn no mention of fifth nikaya, Htoo? connie --- > > dhamma was "what the Buddha taught in 45 years". It was systematically piled up into 4 nikaaya namely Diigha Nikaaya (Long Saying), Majjhima Nikaaya (Middle-length Saying), Samyutta Nikaaya(Sorted Saying), and A`nguttara Nikaaya(One-part exceeding Saying). > #132104 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:21 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 464- Non-Attachment/Alobha (l) philofillet Dear Group Here is a very good post on alobha, from Nina's book cetasikas. I highlight part but please enjoy the whole post below: > Is helping someone else not more useful than being aware of visible object which appears now? All degrees of kusala are useful and we should not neglect any one of them. If we help someone else or listen to him with loving kindness and compassion, there are moments of giving up our selfishness. But shortly after the kusala cittas have fallen away there tend to be akusala cittas with clinging to "our kusala or with attachment to people. (End of pasage) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha)contd > ***** > In the beginning it is difficult to persevere being mindful of > seeing, visible object and the other realities, because we do not > notice an immediate result and we sometimes doubt whether it is > really useful. > > Is helping someone else not more useful than being > aware of visible object which appears now? All degrees of kusala > are useful and we should not neglect any one of them. If we help > someone else or listen to him with loving kindness and compassion, > there are moments of giving up our selfishness. But shortly after > the kusala cittas have fallen away there tend to be akusala cittas > with clinging to "our kusala or with attachment to people. > > Also while we help others there can be mindfulness of realities such as > seeing or visible object. In this way we will become truly convinced > that what is seen is not a person, only a reality which can be > experienced through the eyes. There is already a degree of > detachment, although it is still weak, when there is mindfulness > of visible object and understanding of it as "only a reality, not a > person. > > In the beginning understanding is weak, but we should have confidence that > it can be developed through mindfulness of whatever reality appears > through one of the six doors. Thus clinging to "self or to beings can > decrease. > ********** > Non-Attachment(Alobha)to be contd > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > #132105 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:36 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Ken H, and all, .... > Thomas: " ... dhammas are … *absolutely real* entities."? Which Pali sutta (s) records the Buddha as saying that? > KH: … All suttas record the Buddha as saying that. ---- Thomas: All suttas record the Buddha as saying that dhammas are *absolutely real* entities? I do not see any suttas (particularly the SN suttas) report the Buddha as teaching that dhammas are absolutely real entities, or everything is just dhamma, which is *absolutely real* entity (reality). But, as I said before, I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees (passati) and knows (jaanaati) 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', as 'the middle way', and as the dhammas of `pa.ticcasamuppaada'. There is no need to name paramattha dhamma or absolute reality (for both the five aggregates and nibbana), but to see and to know directly bodily and mental phenomena 'dhammas' as they really are for the ending of dukkha (cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, chapters 2, 3, and 6). Regards, Thomas #132106 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:43 am Subject: Re: Understanding & Undertaking thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, and all, --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > Abhidhamma is to be studied. It is like pathophysiology of diesases, the knowledge of which if not there, diseases cannot be effectively treated or even cured. Sutta.ms are like treatment regimens for kilesa-diseases. > > If recipes are understood, formula is right, contents are checked in detail, medicine is made, and then medicine is taken by kilesa-loaded-people then his kilesa-disease will be cured. If MEDICINE is not taken the kilesa-disease will not be cured or eradicated even though the formula of regimens is understood. > > UNDERSTANDING is not enough to cure kilesa-disease. It is needed to drink "SUTTA.M" medicine to cure or eradicate kilesa-disease. Paramattha is not in any of the teachings of the Buddha. > Yes, this is very useful advice for the studies in Buddhism. Thanks. Sincerely, Thomas #132107 From: Tam Bach Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding & Undertaking tambach Dear Htoo,  Htoo:   UNDERSTANDING is not enough to cure kilesa-disease. It is needed to drink "SUTTA.M" medicine to cure or eradicate kilesa-disease. Paramattha is not in any of the teachings of the Buddha. ------------------ Tam B:  Isn't understanding the forerunner of the Path? Doesn't it *always* arise with other wholesome cetasikas? How come it is not enough? When you talks about drinking Suttam, *what* is drinking suttam? Is drinking suttam without understanding of any use? IMHO,  it would be more accurate to say, as understanding needs all wholesome dhammas to support its development, it is therefore necessary to develop all kinds of wholesomeness, and there are different reminders which can condition such wholesomeness to arise. Metta, Tam B #132108 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:36 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ---- > T: All suttas record the Buddha as saying that dhammas are *absolutely real* entities? ---- KH: Yes, of course they do. If you read them in context with each other, you will see they are talking about paramattha dhammas and *only* about paramattha dhammas. --------- > T: I do not see any suttas (particularly the SN suttas) report the Buddha as teaching that dhammas are absolutely real entities, -------- KH: No, of course you don't. But you have to look carefully. The suttas are not religious mumbo jumbo; they do not contain banalities. -------------- <. . .> > T: But, as I said before, I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees (passati) and knows -------------- KH: Who sees and knows? Do you realise anatta means no self? It means there is no one who sees and knows. Go back and read your chosen suttas with that in mind. They will show you a way in which there can be seeing and knowing *without anyone who sees and knows.* ------------------------- > T: (jaanaati) 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', as 'the middle way', and as the dhammas of `pa.ticcasamuppaada'. There is no need to name paramattha dhamma or absolute reality (for both the five aggregates and nibbana), but to see and to know directly bodily and mental phenomena 'dhammas' as they really are for the ending of dukkha (cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, chapters 2, 3, and 6). ------------------------ KH: So you keep saying, but what does it mean? Or is it just meaningless words designed to give an impression of meaning? Ken H #132109 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:04 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Off to Canada dhammasaro Howdy, Have a great trip... I've only traveled in the eastern-southern areas from Sault Ste Marie to Montreal and many times to Toronto & York to visit Canadien (Canadian) and Thai friends. Trust you will visit one or more Buddhist Temple... if you do please share your impressions... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #132110 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:52 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Understanding & Undertaking dhammasaro Agree... From: thomaslaw03@yahoo.com.au --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Abhidhamma is to be studied. It is like pathophysiology of diesases, the knowledge of which if not there, diseases cannot be effectively treated or even cured. Sutta.ms are like treatment regimens for kilesa-diseases. > > If recipes are understood, formula is right, contents are checked in detail, medicine is made, and then medicine is taken by kilesa-loaded-people then his kilesa-disease will be cured. If MEDICINE is not taken the kilesa-disease will not be cured or eradicated even though the formula of regimens is understood. > > UNDERSTANDING is not enough to cure kilesa-disease. It is needed to drink "SUTTA.M" medicine to cure or eradicate kilesa-disease. Paramattha is not in any of the teachings of the Buddha. Yes, this is very useful advice for the studies in Buddhism. Thanks. #132111 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:40 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > ---- > > T: All suttas record the Buddha as saying that dhammas are *absolutely real* entities? > ---- > > KH: Yes, of course they do. If you read them in context with each other, you will see they are talking about paramattha dhammas and *only* about paramattha dhammas. > > --------- > > T: I do not see any suttas (particularly the SN suttas) report the Buddha as teaching that dhammas are absolutely real entities, > -------- > > KH: No, of course you don't. But you have to look carefully. The suttas are not religious mumbo jumbo; they do not contain banalities. > > -------------- > <. . .> > > T: But, as I said before, I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees (passati) and knows > -------------- > > KH: Who sees and knows? Do you realise anatta means no self? It means there is no one who sees and knows. > > Go back and read your chosen suttas with that in mind. They will show you a way in which there can be seeing and knowing *without anyone who sees and knows.* > > ------------------------- > > T: (jaanaati) 'dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) as 'anicca, dukkha, anatta', as 'the four truths', as 'the middle way', and as the dhammas of `pa.ticcasamuppaada'. There is no need to name paramattha dhamma or absolute reality (for both the five aggregates and nibbana), but to see and to know directly bodily and mental phenomena 'dhammas' as they really are for the ending of dukkha (cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, chapters 2, 3, and 6). > ------------------------ > > KH: So you keep saying, but what does it mean? Or is it just meaningless words designed to give an impression of meaning? > I see, good on you! Thomas #132112 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 30 jul 2013, om 03:07 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > Note: I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are only dhammas, or everything itself is dhamma", which is the expression in the sense of a metaphysical entity. ------- N: A long time ago Ven. Dhammanando analysed the term in truth and in reality. He gave us seven translations. I quote some of his post. attani ca attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamÄne (MN. 22; also cited in the KathÄvatthu's debate on the puggalavÄda, Kvu. 68) ---- N: SEe, the MN quoted the Katthaavatthu. ------- Dh: First I cite seven translations of it: Dhammanando: "...since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self..." ÑÄṇamoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..." Thanissaro: "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." B.C. Law: "...But both soul and that which belongs to soul being in truth, and forever, impossible to be known..." I.B. Horner: "But if Self and what belongs to Self, although actually existing are incomprehensible..." MahÄmakut Tipiá¹­aka: "...meua attÄ lae borikhÄn neuang duai attÄ bukkhon theu ao mai dai, doey khwÄm pen khong jing, doey khwÄm pen khong thae..." MahÄchulalongkorn Tipiá¹­aka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwÄm pen khong jing, doey khwÄm pen khong thae..." Then my comments: Of the seven renderings above, those of Horner and Law are completely off the map, while the remaining five are more or less defensible so far as purely philological considerations go. There are two key terms in the passage that give rise to disagreement: firstly, the participle "anupalabbhamÄne"; secondly, the phrase "saccato thetato". How one conceives the meaning of these will determine how one interprets the passage; and how one interprets the passage will determine how one goes about translating it. The problem, of course, is that every translator's interpretation of the above phrases will be determined - or at least influenced - by his prior assumptions about the Buddha's teaching. Let's start with anupalabbhamÄne. This is the present participle of the passive form of the verb upalabhati, inflected in the locative case. In front of it is placed the negative particle na ('not'), which changes to an- in accordance with the rules of euphonic junction. Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would be "not to be found." Here's one familiar example of the verb, to be found in every Indian logic textbook: vañjhÄya putto na upalabbhati. "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." (Or as western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. And here arises the first point of controversy among translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? ÑÄṇamoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and would tend to imply that a self does (or at least might) exist, but one that is too inscrutable to say anything about. To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this present participle is inflected in the locative case, then various meanings are possible, and here arises the second point of controversy. What function does the locative have in this context? There are three possibilities: Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a non-obtaining of self..." Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of self...." Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." ÑÄṇamoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for the other two would leave a loophole that there might be some time or place where self does obtain. Thanissaro of course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions determining how we translate. Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits of the above translations, or even if there is a difference between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in truth obtain." Not that this matters greatly; the crux of the matter is obviously the word anupalabbhamÄne. The difference between my old rendering and the ÑÄṇamoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamÄne, whereas ÑÄṇamoli and Bodhi make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord better with the ṬīkÄ to this sutta. Best wishes, Dhammanando Bhikkhu (end of quote). ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Th: But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees and knows bodily and mental phenomena as, for example, `anicca, dukkha, anatta'. ----- N: One can only consider the truth of the present moment. Anicca etc. pertain to seeing now, hearing now, thinking now. Always now. That is not metaphysical or abstract. The Buddha's teaching is not "in the book". Nina. #132113 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Canada philofillet Thank You, Chuck. Now I am in Montreal, my hometown, at a bus station. It is easy to say that paramattha dhammas are just arising and falling away wherever we are, but there are so many stories about some places more than others. But we can be aware that behind all the stories is paramatha dhamma that is thinking, performing its function here, there and everywhere -now. Always now. The more keen interest there is in developing understanding of realities now, the less interest there will be in the stories that always always always eventually lead to a sad ending. Phil #132114 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:35 pm Subject: Becoming Arahat On The Same Day After Reminder htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Baddanta Upatissa Saariputta was the right wing of the Buddha. B. Upatissa Saariputta heard a gaathaa said by B. Assaji. In the middle of the gaathaa he became a sotapanna, but not an arahat. On that same day B.U. Saariputta went to the Buddha and received *the practice* when B. Kolita Moggallaana also received the same instruction. B.K. Moggallaana became an arahat after 7 days and B.U. Saariputta became an arahat only after 2 weeks from receiving the instruction from the Buddha. B.K. Moggallaana was the left wing of the Buddha. These two arahats required 1 week and 2 weeks to practice to become arahat. The group of five or 'Pa~ncavaggii' required 5 days, which was much shorter than two 'Agga Saavakas'. They were senior to Saariputta and Moggallaana. If someone has 5 requirements and also has the living Sammaasambuddha as their close teacher he or she can become an arahat in a half day. That is if receive instruction in the morning, become an arahat in the evening or if receive instruction in the evening, become an arahat in the morning. These 5 requirements are 1. unshakable belief (saddhaa) 2. best health (sammaa paacaka) 3. uprightness (sincerity or amaayaa) 4. diligent effort(aataapa or burning viriya) 5. wisdom (udayabbaya ~naa.na) These sare 'Padhaaniya`nga Dhammas".(Bodhiraajakumaara sutta.m) There were two persons who were not in Buddhists' robe or were not monks but they became arahats on the very same day they received the instructions from the Buddha as reminder. Defence Minister 'Satati' was drunk when he was seen by the Buddha and Aanandaa. The Buddha smiled that drunkard. Aanandaa asked the Buddha why smiled. The Buddha told Aananda that this Minister Santati would become an arahat. After a week the young dancer girl, whom the Minister loved much died and Minister became worried. When he met the Buddha, the Buddha said to him "Ya.m pubbe ta.m visosehi......". The Minister became an arahat on the same day. He did parinibbaana (died) on that same day after preaching Dhamma in the sky as suggested by the Buddha. Another person was Baahiya Daaruciiriya. He was like a fool. He was bare on his body except he wore wood & rope around the waist. So he got his name daaruciiriya (daaru = wood_wood for fire/fireplace). He came to Saavatthi, where Jetavana Monastry existed, from far away. He ran the whole night. In the morning he reached Jetavana. Buddha was not there but went alm round. He followed the Buddha and asked to preache him "Dhamma". The Buddha declined and went on alm round. He second time asked for. The Buddha again declined as it was not the right time for him (Baahiya). After the third time the Buddha gave him *the instruction*. After hearing the instruction he became an arahat (the fastest ever to become an arahat in the whole Buddha's Saasanaa). Saariputta had to practice for half month whereas Baahiya just required half morning. Baahiya had no time to become a monk. He did ask to become a monk. But he did not have robe & bowl yet. When he searched for them he was killed by a female buffalo and did parinibbaana. The Buddha instructed monks to collect this arahat's bones after burning and set a "Cetii". What Baahiya heard was "Di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m bhavissati. Sute suttamatta.m bhavissati. Mute mutamatta.m bhavissati. Vi~n~naate vi~n~naa.namatta.m bhavissati....". The Minister (drunkard) and this fool man became arahats on the same day they heard some reminders from the Buddha. Even in these example cases they had to follow *the path* and they gained enlightenment successively within a matter short period. Successively means first sotapanna, then sakadaagaamii, then anaagaamii, and finally arahat in a few minutes. There are three series of dhammas. 1. desanaakkama dhamma (what the Buddha taught) 2. pa.tipattikkama dhamma (how to do *the practice*) 3. pavattikkama dhamma (what arise while doing pa.tipatti) Pa.tipatti does not follow all described in payiyatti. Pariyatti also invlove Daana Kathaa, Siila Kathaa, Sagga Kathaa etc that are not directly participate in Pa.tipatti. Those who do *pa.tipatti* do not need everything in tipitaka. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #132115 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, I refer to another sutta where there is clear distinction between conventional truth and ultimate truth, although, as you said, the word paramattha is not used. Perhaps you may find it interesting. Op 30 jul 2013, om 03:07 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > Note: I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are only dhammas, or everything itself is dhamma", which is the expression in the sense of a metaphysical entity. ------- N: PTS edition, K.S.I, the Devas, 3.Sword suttas (sattivagga), § 5 The arahant. The Buddha explains that the arahat may use expressions of I say and mine. A deva wonders whether this shows not proneness to notions of a self or soul. The Buddha answered: The world of concepts and common names is different from the world of ultimate truth, the truth of khandhas, dhaatus, aayatanas, and this sutta points to the difference. But, as I often said, reading is not enough. By attending to the characteristics of seeing, visible object, etc. we can learn that there is no person who sees, no person in the visible object. If we do not, all reading and studying is in vain. It merely stays in the book, as Acharn Sujin would say. Nina. #132116 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Canada nilovg Dear Phil, very good post. I can feel with you. Op 31 jul 2013, om 13:44 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Now I am in Montreal, my hometown, at a bus station. It is easy to say that paramattha dhammas are just arising and falling away wherever we are, but there are so many stories about some places more than others. But we can be aware that behind all the stories is paramatha dhamma that is thinking, performing its function here, there and everywhere -now. Always now. The more keen interest there is in developing understanding of realities now, the less interest there will be in the stories that always always always eventually lead to a sad ending. --------- N: I am involved also in stories, no end. The house is so very, very silent, deadly silent, without Lodewijk and I was feeling lonely. Then I heard a recording about feeling lonely. T.A. said that when we feel lonely it is good to remember that there is not even "I" who is lonely. It is only thinking, and I who feels lonely does not even exist. This helps. Nina. #132117 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Arahat On The Same Day After Reminder nilovg Dear Htoo, Thank you for your interesting post. Can you elaborate a bit on the pali sentences? As I understand: in the seeing there will be only what is seen. As I see it, nothing else, no person in the seeing. Seeing is not mixed with thinking stories about this or that. But my Pali became a bit rusty. Nina. Op 31 jul 2013, om 14:35 heeft htoonaing@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > What Baahiya heard was "Di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m bhavissati. Sute suttamatta.m bhavissati. Mute mutamatta.m bhavissati. Vi~n~naate vi~n~naa.namatta.m bhavissati....". #132118 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:17 pm Subject: Don't Be Repentant ! Aanandaa htoonaing... Don't Be Repentant ! Aanandaa Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha advised many times during 45 years of His Buddhahood to His disciples. "Etaani, Aananda, rukkhamuulaani, Etaani su~n~naagaaraani 'jhaayathaananda, maa pamaadattha, maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha. Aya.m vo ahmaaka.m anusaasanii". (Majjhima Nikaaya_Uparipa.n.naasa_Sa.laayatana Vagga, Indriyabhaavanaa Sutta.m) Eta.m = like this, Etaani = like these Aananda = the name of the cousin of the Buddha rukkha = tree, muula = root/base rukkhamuulaani = at the bases of trees Sunnaagaara = (sunna = empty + agaara = house/building) Sunnaagaaraani = in emptied or unoccupied building(quiet place) Jhaayathaananda = Jhaayatha + Aananda Jhayati = to burn, Jhaayatha = burn ('Burn' this paper) maa = no pamaadattha = forget (pamaada = forgetness) pacchaa = later (behind/ after sometime/ late time) Vippa.tisaarino = being repentant ahuvattha = caused, happened, appeared Aya.m = this vo = you, to you Ahmaaka.m = our Anusaasanii = teaching (correction to beome right_sammaa) *Jhaayatha* Do practice/ Meditate/ Burning Proliferation of 'citta.m' and 'pa~n~naa'. Citta here means 'samaadhi'. As citta is the leader 'samaadhi' is referred as 'citta'. There are direct teachings and 40 indirect teachings in tipi.taka. Not all of each and every word in tipi.taka have to be assumed directly or literally. Therefore dhamma-teacher is needed to study effectively and rightly. May you all be well and happy, Htoo Naing #132119 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Arahat On The Same Day After Reminder htoonaing... Nina: Dear Htoo, Thank you for your interesting post. Can you elaborate a bit on the pali sentences? As I understand: in the seeing there will be only what is seen. As I see it, nothing else, no person in the seeing. Seeing is not mixed with thinking stories about this or that. But my Pali became a bit rusty. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > What Baahiya heard was "Di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m bhavissati. Sute suttamatta.m bhavissati. Mute mutamatta.m bhavissati. Vi~n~naate vi~n~naa.namatta.m bhavissati....". [quote from the post BAOTSDAR] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina,thanks for your post. What you wrote to me are all right. Every word is right. Paa.li here is simple, I think. Ditthe = if see dittha = seen matta = just happen (just see, just hear, just smell, just taste, just touch, just know) matta.m is for 'objective case in grammar'. Bhavissati = will be (will do, will have, will see, will hear etc) As you and all DSGs here know there is no atta, no satta, no jiiva, no life, no being,no person, no self. This is true for 'very first viithi_series of cittas'. In real sense in real world outside if we set aside what we learnt in dhamma there will be seeing of 'something'. This 'something' arise almost immediately we see something (va.n.na or light & colour in shape and form, where shape and form is not real). There are tadaanuvattika viithi or "following series of cittas' in quick successions. 1. reality 2. thinking on shape & form along with colour 3. pannatti as a base for 'something we seen' (attha pannatti) 4. name for that particular pannati 5. further series for all other worldly characteristics 6. name for different languages if required When the Buddha can know million of million cittas, we as a beginner can see 100 or so in a second. In the first series there is almost no akusala. But in following series there arise lobha or dosa along with moha. If "ditthe dittha.m" we will already know a name for what we seen. But if "ditthe ditthamatta.m" this is very hard for us. This is quite hard even in advanced people who can attain jhaana. Simple jhaanalaabhii will have lobha not dosa. As soon as dosa arises jhaana is destroyed. Lobha can arise before entering into jhaana-state. But while in jhaana (true jhaana) there is no lobha at all. Again after arising from jhaana there can be lobha if jhaanalaabhii is not insight meditator. If insight meditator when he arises from jhaana realities will be interacted with citta-with-panna and finally when conditions are there then panna of the highest will arise along with citta (magga javana citta, phala javana cittas followed by paccavekkha.na javana cittas). As you and DSGs know reality cannot be created, cannot be controled, cannot be destroyed. But here what the instruction means is "to cut off further thinking as far as possible and with enough time (of accumulations) seeing will be seen as seeing. That is reality will be reality nothing but reality and no person, no atta, no satta, no being. This is anatta. With respect, Htoo Naing #132120 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 3:17 am Subject: Vipassanaa_029 (DT 916 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Siila (morality) is the platform for samaadhi(concentration). Samaadhi is the platform for pa~n~naa (wisdom). There are lokiya(worldly) siila, lokiya samaadhi, and lokiya pa~n~naa. These lokiya siila-samaadhi-panna are not of lokuttaraa(supramundane). "Siilayati kaayavaciikammaani sammaa dahatii'ti siila.m". Kaaya-vacii-kammaani = kaaya-vacii-kamma (in grammatical 'object') kaaya kamma (bodily actions) vacii kamma (verbal actions/ actions related to speech) kaayavaciikamma = both kaaya and vacii kamma sammaa = right, rightly siilayati = dahati = practice(v)/ place(v) Siila.m is "rightly practicing on bodily actions and on speech". Catupaarisuddhi siila comprises 1. paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila, 2. indriya-sa.mvara siila, 3. aajiivapaarisuddhi siila, and 4. paccayasannissita siila. If all these 4 siilas are practiced the practice is called catupaarisuddhi siila. This is siila-visuddhi or purification of morality. Catu = 4 parisuddhi = completely purified catupaarisuddhi siila = a set of siila completely purified. Paatimokkha-sa.mvara siilas are 1. bhikkhuu paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila(9180,5036,000) 2. bhikkhunii paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila(siila of nuns) 3. saama.ne siila (siila of norvice) 4. gaha.t.tha siila (siila of lay people/householders) Paaletii'ti paati. It protects so it is protector. mokkha = liberation, release paatimokkha = the protectors which liberate or release practicing persons from rebirth at hell and other woeful states sa.mvara = obstruction, hindrance This siila (paatimokkha-sa.mvara siila) is a kind of nicca-siila. That is 'to observe for life and forever'. As soon as the siila is broken then it will not be safe from rebirth at one of 4 woeful states. So it has to be observed for life and forever. Therefore it can be called 'nicca-siila' or 'permanent morality'. For monks it is more than 91805 million. For norvice it is basically 10 precepts and some other practices in bhikkhu paatimokkha. For lay people 'nicca siila' or paatimokkha is 5 precepts. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-29 DT-916 #132121 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 3:47 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > RobE! > > > > "we hit the deck a-runnin' and we spun those guns around!" > > > > Yeah, I wrote that - shooting randomly, just to see who I might be able to hit, is my favorite hobby! > > > > and calling it friendly fire i am. If you shoot someone with kusala, the resulting kamma is also kusala. The physical world does not truly exist, so it is rather the idea of causing physical harm and the cetana that causes such a false ideation that is responsible for the negative kamma-patha, not the actual "act" itself, which is basically a kind of holographic illusion. > missed me because i've just crawled out from not-saying where, since the earlier (May, but not '41) outbust. My (dueling) second said it was safe - that you'd engaged another (enemy). Another possible answer for "second" would be "lobha". but yeah, the real enemy's always (my) akusala. "Akusala to bed, akusala to rise," or as the Buddha used to express it to his computer buds: "Garbage in, garbage out." Also see: what goes around comes around, never put off to today what you can experience tomorrow, [reverse decisive-support retroactive causation,] and "tomorrow never comes." > > > ps. they killed Elmer yesterday. what now? > > > > Who's Elmer? > > > > There is no Elmer. Elmer does sound like a good name for a zen Master. I should have figured. > Nice thing about saying that about the dead is that it seems easier for people to swallow. Elmer might've been pork. Even so, we/I listened, usually, when i stayed at his place, to Lodewijk reading Perfections. There's no internet there & last time i went, i was going to engage, i mean talk, with ImhoTep when i got back, but he's gone another sort of underground, it seems. Could he really be a mole? I guess I still don't really know who Elmer is. But I'll collect the clues: pork + mole + ImhoTep = .....okay, more work is needed... > > > pss. i'd like MY prisoner back. > > > > All our prisoners are staring back at us in the mirror. > > > > are you paranoid, too, gunslinger? Both paranoid and accurate -- I know who's out to get me, and I prefer to shoot first and find out who it is later. > "Look, this is how it sounds!" - a music teacher > > (a) cakkhudhaatu, (b) ruupadhaatu, (c) cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatu, > (a) the eye, (b) visible shape, (c) visual cognition, > (d) sotadhaatu, (e) saddadhaatu, (f) sotavi~n~naa.nadhaatu, > (d) the ear, (e) sound, (f) auditory cognition, ... > - a buddhist teacher And a pretty intellectual one at that... Best, Rob E. =================== #132122 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 4:00 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > Nice to chat with you again! I hope the classes are going well. Good to talk to you too! Yeah, I just started another new acting class, nice though small to medium, which makes me think the economy may be starting to turn around -- I seem to be an early, if insignificant, indicator. ... > It's their way of including others that is important, since they are really the "keepers of the list." Others who are less mature may argue in a more vehement way, but that's all part of their own growth process, and often reflects an imperfect development of understanding, which all of us, of whatever perspective, should understand and use as an opportunity to develop patience. > > James: Okay, here I think you are referring to me and how I can go psycho on the list....and I don't like it one bit...;-))) just kidding. Wasn't referring to you at all. Many of us get riled up and want to squash a subject of dispute quickly, even if it has been around for millenia. > Since patience is sometimes said to be the most important quality by the Buddha > > James: Actually, I don't think the Buddha ever said that. Yeah, he did. I don't have a quote handy, I don't think, but it was on the subject of the paramis, or virtues, that need to be developed to reach enlightenment, and in that context he said that patience was most important, because most people will just keep spinning between desire and aversion and never stop and go through the arduous process that it takes to get beyond that. I am not talking about patience in the face of nonsense, or being patient with unimportant things, but patience to withstand the long arduous process of mature development. As much as you may want instant results, I have found over the years that the instant results don't hold up in the long run -- at all -- and the gradual developments do. > He was not the most patient guy around. He knew what was at steak (ie. Hair on fire and all that). The "patience mantra" is a Jewish thing. That's also not true. Patience is more a Protestant thing in my view, if we are talking Western culture. The Jews are very outspoken about what they want to do, and encourage their kids to 'go for it.' The Buddha certainly encouraged people to stop fooling around and get on the path - hair on fire, etc. But that doesn't mean that you then keep running around like your hair's on fire all the time. Once you understand the problem you have to face it and work it through bit by bit. > , we should take that seriously and look carefully at what others say - myself included of course. Without patience we'll never perservere in finding out the truth, and embodying the higher states of awareness, which is very gradual and obstructed by various obstacles and defilements. > > > > James: Look, I have no time for patience! My time on this earth is very limited and I want to make the most of it. I get sick to death of people calling for patience!! Patience isn't a virtue, it is a blinding mechanism. Really, there is no time for patience and the Buddha never taught about patience in the face of extreme suffering. It's on the Buddha's list of the virtues needed for enlightenment - I think what you mean is not to confuse being a piously patient fool with being direct and taking action. But the patience of the paramis is internal towards one's own process, not acting like a "patient type of person" in the world. Though it also doesn't hurt to realize that others are in process too, and be patient with them in that sense. > > Whatever your perspective is, James, whenever you are here you always contribute something of value. Even if you can't easily identify what that value is, you definitely change the tone of some discussions when you get into them. That should be enough to make you comfortable being here, even if you disagree with everyone on both sides of the issues. > > James: Well, I don't know about that, but I probably changed the tone of this discussion in a hurry. Yup, you add dynamic energy - nothing wrong with that! ... > James: Oh, there is little I like better than a good mystery. If it wasn't you and it wasn't me, then it had to be.......Connie! That little minx caused all these problems! :-)) That's true! Connie causes most of the problems around here, but all for the good of the group! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #132123 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 11:20 am Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. ... > Thomas: Note: I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are only dhammas, or everything itself is dhamma", which is the expression in the sense of a metaphysical entity. ------- N: A long time ago Ven. Dhammanando analysed the term in truth and in reality. He gave us seven translations. I quote some of his post. attani ca attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamane (MN. 22; also cited in the Kathavatthu's debate on the puggalavada, Kvu. 68) ... Dhammanando: "...since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self..." Ña?amoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..." Thanissaro: "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." ... > Thomas: But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees and knows bodily and mental phenomena as, for example, `anicca, dukkha, anatta'. ----- N: One can only consider the truth of the present moment. Anicca etc. pertain to seeing now, hearing now, thinking now. Always now. That is not metaphysical or abstract. The Buddha's teaching is not "in the book". Thomas: The Pali terms, sacca and theta, can be certainly translated as truth and reality respectively. But the Pali sentence does not mean that in reality there are just dhammas or everything itself is dhamma. It means the truth/reality of not-self and not belonging to self. I have no problem with the Buddha's teachings on the truth of the present moment: anicca, dukkha, anatta. Regards, Thomas #132124 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 11:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply indeed. >Thomas: Note: I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are only dhammas, or everything itself is dhamma", which is the expression in the sense of a metaphysical entity. ----- > Nina: I refer to another sutta where there is clear distinction between conventional truth and ultimate truth, although, as you said, the word paramattha is not used. Perhaps you may find it interesting. >PTS edition, K.S.I, the Devas, 3.Sword suttas (sattivagga), § 5 The arahant. The Buddha explains that the arahat may use expressions of I say and mine. A deva wonders whether this shows not proneness to notions of a self or soul. The Buddha answered: ... > The world of concepts and common names is different from the world of ultimate truth, the truth of khandhas, dhaatus, aayatanas, and this sutta points to the difference. > But, as I often said, reading is not enough. By attending to the characteristics of seeing, visible object, etc. we can learn that there is no person who sees, no person in the visible object. If we do not, all reading and studying is in vain. It merely stays in the book, as Acharn Sujin would say. ... Thomas: Obviously you do not respond to what I refer to. I hope you do not intend to do so. I have no problem with the Buddha's teachings on seeing and knowing the present moment: anatta. I have also no problem at all with the Buddha's teachings indicated in the text you quoted above. But the text does not mean that khandhas or aayatanas are or are being called as parammatha dhammas/ultimate truth/reality by the Buddha. Regards, Thomas #132125 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I am involved also in stories, no end. The house is so very, very silent, deadly silent, without Lodewijk and I was feeling lonely. Then I heard a recording about feeling lonely. T.A. said that when we feel lonely it is good to remember that there is not even "I" who is lonely. > It is only thinking, and I who feels lonely does not even exist. This helps. This is very brave, and a powerful disciplined way to look at our experience. Those difficult states are hard to take, but I understand what you mean that when you look at the reality of the situation - no I, only thinking - it is helpful. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #132126 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hello Htoo, > Sukin: > > Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the > Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > "Samaadhi.m bhaveto, bhikkhave, yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. > Yathaabhuuta.m pajaananto naamaruupa.m vipassati. Naamaruupa.m > vipassanto anicca.m passati. Anicca.m passanto dukkha.m passati. > Dukkha.m passanto anatta.m vijaanaati. Anatta.m jaananto samudaya.m > pahaayati. Samudaya.m pahaayanto nirodha.m bhavissati. Nirodha.m > bhavanto nibbaana.m sacchikara.nati." > Could you give a translation instead? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > For the Path it needs many conditions. One of conditions is foundation > > of pre-path. In pre-path siila has to be observed first but when > > working with pre-path there are only 5 parts. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > You are saying that before there can be wisdom, there must be some > level of accumulated Sila. How did you arrive at this conclusion? You > would first have had to hear the Dhamma and therefore had wisdom at > the level of pariyatti arise, would you not? If so, does this not make > "wisdom" the basis upon which further development occur? Wisdom leads > to increase in other kinds of kusala rather than the other way round, > is it not? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Far left. Pa.tipatti is the practice to attain pa.tivedha. > What is Far left? Why are you telling me that patipatti leads to pativedha? Are these both not reference to conditioned dhammas with different levels of wisdom? > Sukin: > > I've seen this kind of reasoning regarding the "mind being clouded' > and therefore the need for concentration as means for "seeing" the > Truth, exist in other religions as well. What is the difference in > understanding between your position and theirs in this regard? I can > understand that in the case of other religions, the perception of > "mind being clouded" is the result of wrong view of permanence and of > self. > ----------------------------------------------------------Htoo: > > Even you have right view of impermanence samaadhi is required. Without > samaadhi you will not be on the right path. > Are you referring to the samadhi as in one of the universal cetasikas, namely ekaggata? Or are you talking about the so-called practice of samadhi? If the latter, I am still waiting for a logical explanation regarding its role in the development of the Path. Why do you say that the practice of samadhi is needed for the development of Right View which sees into the characteristic of impermanence? > Sukin: > > As students of the Dhamma, we know that the quality of the citta is > determined by the accompanying roots, and citta and the accompanying > cetasika all rise and fall away together in an instant. > ----------------------------------------------------------Htoo: > > You are talking on citta as if citta is a person. It does not have any > quality. It just has characteristic. > In talking about a citta rooted in moha and lobha, do you say that the particular citta has the characteristic of akusala? I was responding to your suggestion that the practice of samadhi makes it easier for the Path to arise. In referring to the difference in "quality" of citta, I was trying to point out that a jhana citta is different in terms of not only characteristic, but also of function, from that of the Path. So this is what you should be responding to rather than tell me that I am making citta into a person. It is citta, cetasika or rupa, therefore not self or a person. > Sukin: > > What kind of citta would "concentration" be, > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: It is not vipaaka. So it has to be akusala or kusala > ----------------------------------------------------------Sukin: > > and if rooted in wisdom, what kind of > wisdom? > ----------------------------------------------------------Htoo: > > That depends on the object. All jhaanas are kusala. All jhaanas are > not akusala. Exception is abyaakata-jhaana of arahats. > I was referring to the difference in kind of wisdom between that of Jhana and that of the Path, so yes, the object as well. So what do you say now, the object of Jhana is not one of the three characteristic of paramattha dhammas, but a concept. So please explain to me, how concentration on a concept with the understanding about "calm" and how this calm can be maintained through repeated concentration on a meditation subject, can make it easier for the the kind of concentration conditioned by Right View, the object of which is a characteristic of paramattha dhammas, to arise? What is the relationship between the kind of development where only sensuous desire is addressed and the defilements remain suppressed, and the one which sees the danger of ignorance and therefore aimed at the eradication of all defilements? > And when it does at that moment, what does it know / understand? Does > it know only kusala? > Can it not know the hindrances themselves? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: NEP knows nibbaana, I have said that above. > Yeah, but you should know that the question was whether the development of Right Understanding involves knowing all kinds of dhammas or only kusala. Since you were suggesting the need for samadhi and the suppression of the hindrances in order for Panna to arise, this is saying that only kusala can be the object of the kind of panna, after all when it is akusala which precedes, the hindrances are not suppressed. > > Htoo: > > The best is 4th ruupa-jhaana. If 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th aruupa-jhaana can > > be attained it is good. Still if not yet possible 3rd, 2nd ruupa > > jhaanas are good to be in hand. If this is still not possible it is > > better to attain 1st jhaana. > > > Even if not at jhaana (appanaa-samaadhi), it is better to have > > upacaara-samaadhi, which has almost the same power like 1st jhaana. In > > upcaara-samaadhi there is no hindrances no niivara.na dhamma. > > You know what the above sounds like? Promotion of Jhana as means to > enlightenment and reflection of a lack of confidence in the Noble > Eightfold Path!! > ----------------------------------------------------------Htoo: > > No. Not promotion. It is necessity. It can be seen in many sutta.m. > NEP has samaadhi called sammaa-samaadhi. > If you reason that because samma-samadhi is mentioned as one of the eight factors of the Path, therefore this means that Jhana practice is needed, then you should also believe that samma sankapa, samma vaca, samma kammanta, samma ajiva, samma vayama, samma sati and samma ditthi are each separate practices to be followed. So now can you please describe to me, what each of these practices are in the sense of "doing" something? > > If there is niivara.na dhamma there will be slowness to progress in > > understanding (at experiential level). > ----------------------------------------------------------Sukin: > > The Path is developed by repeated arising and panna becomes keener and > keener by virtue of this process, not due to the hindrances being > suppressed as result of a practice which is *not* the Path, re: the > development of samatha / Jhana. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You are totally wrong. > > Noble Eightfold Path is just a moment. It is at magga kha.na. It is as > the result of *practice*. The practice is vipassanaa. The practice is > satipa.t.thaana. Without this anyone including Sammaasambuddhas, > paccekabuddhas, and all saavaka cannot attain nibbaana. > I was referring to the Path as a particular kind of development corresponding with pariyatti > patipatti > pativedha or suttamaya panna > cintamaya panna > bhavanamaya panna. Was I totally wrong to do this? Should the reference to the development of the Path be limited only to magga? Anyway, you should have got my meaning and tried to respond to the main point, namely, the development of panna from the very beginning involves understanding all jatis of dhammas. This leads to panna growing keener becoming indriya, bala and so on, implying that no akusala (except for wrong view) would be a hindrance to such panna. The idea that samadhi is needed to suppress the hindrances must therefore be totally wrong! > Sukin: > Are we not talking about the Five Indriyas which correspond with the > Five Balas rather than the other meaning where upekkha is included? Or > do you mean that with upekkha which comes with the 4th jhana, the > indriyas are balanced? This latter sounds like a case of someone > becoming ever more desperate to include Jhana as part of right practice. > ----------------------------------------------------------Htoo: > > I was not jumping out of the discussion. Upekkhaa is also one of the 7 > enlightenment-factors called bojjha`nga. In these there are many of > jhaana-factors. Without samaadhi there is no panna. > And there must be jhana factors now, without which you wouldn't think, read, or type any message. So without samadhi and vitakka - vicara, there will not be thinking with lobha or dosa either. Don't we therefore refer to these two roots and ignorance when talking about what is akusala rather than the role of samadhi? And is strength of akusala the result of accumulated samadhi? So why the need to see samadhi as leading to panna? It must be due to wrong understanding at the level of pariyatti, leading to wrong idea about patipatti! > > PS: The fastest is half-day if there is the Buddha as the teacher. > > This is for neyya puggalas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > The fastest was less than a minute re: Sariputta. > In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha was addressing those whose panna > were developed to the level of indriya / bala, or perhaps even those > who in previous lives, had attained some level of vipassanannana. He > did not say this to those who've only had occasional satipatthana in > the past, let alone those with only pariyatti understanding, and > certainly not those who had strong accumulation for wrong practice, > the same as 99.999% of the Buddhists today and the last 500 years. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: This is dilution. This is over-generalization. There are many > who are not true Buddhists. If true Theravadan Buddhists they are more > than 99.99999% right practice. > Only panna at the level of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha can be considered Dhamma students. There are many who you'd consider Theravada Buddhists but who in fact have not in this life, experienced any level of pariyatti understanding even. Therefore from where I stand, they have never been students of Dhamma at all. For them to have experienced right practice can only be the projection of wrong view. > > Htoo: > > > > There is a monk in Myanmar. Bhaddanta Javana called "Myittarshin Shwe > > Pyii Thar". I quote him because what he said is logical. > > There are 3 jobs for three separate identities. > > 1. yogis' job > > 2. teachers' job > > 3. dhamma's job > > Yogis or meditators have to follow and practice according to what the > > teacher teach. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Dhamma students should not follow anyone. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: So you desert all your teachers. This might include the Buddha > who originally laid down the dhammas. > I go to my teacher and the Buddha because they encourage me to "develop understanding" and not just to "follow"! > Sukin: > They should develop understanding of the Dhamma as taught in the > Tipitaka with the present moment as reference point, not even to > follow anything just because they read the Buddha as saying so. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Do you mean that "it is not needed to read what the Buddha said"? > No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that understanding should lead the way. And because this is not what has happened with most so-called Buddhists today, that the idea of "meditation" for example, has become so popular, and there are so many corrupted Bhikkhus, and meditation teachers who have managed to amass so much wealth through setting up retreats, publication of books and receiving donations. > Sukin: > The Buddha encouraged "understanding" from > the very beginning as can be seen from what he said to the Kalama people. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Kaalama sutta.m was preached a bit late. It does not say anything like > understanding. > Late? What are you implying with this suggestion? Quote: * Do not go upon what has been*acquired by repeated hearing*, * nor upon*tradition*, * nor upon*rumor*, * nor upon*what is in a scripture*, * nor upon*surmise*, * nor upon an*axiom*, * nor upon*specious reasoning*, * nor upon a*bias towards a notion that has been pondered over*, * nor upon*another's seeming ability*, * nor upon the consideration, "*The monk is our teacher*." [/emphasis added/] * Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.' If this above is not about the encouragement of "understanding" and discouraging "following", what is it, in your opinion? > Sukin: > If the teacher teaches and the students learn, with the idea of "self", > then automatically this is aimed at some result and this cause would be > the wrong cause. This means that both are delusion from the very > beginning and will be so in the middle and more so in the end. The > Dhamma being good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the > end is about the development of pariyatti leading to patipatti and to > pativedha. And this is with detachment all the way through, no idea of a > "self" who has to do anything in order to receive anything. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > "Sahaavassa dassana sampadaaya tayassu dhammaa jahita bhavanti. > Sakkaaya di.t.thi viicikicchita~nca siilabbata.m vaa pi yadatthi > ki~nci. Ida.m pi sa.mghe yatana.m pa.niita.m etena saccena suvatthi hotu." > > Di.t.thi (the cetasika ditthi) is eradicated at the moment when path > consciousness arises. Before this there can be ditthi. You seem to > eradicate ditthi even before magga-citta arise while still doing > nothing of NEP. > Recognizing wrong view at the level of pariyatti understanding should not be read as suggesting that the wrong view has been eradicated. The detachment is reference to alobha cetasika accompanying any level of right understanding. > If I told you that through studying with the K. Sujin and with this and > that happening along the way, I have finally become a Sotapanna, would > you believe me? If you do not, please explain why? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Definitely not if there was no practice of satipatthaana. Because > there is no sammaa-sa`nkappa, no sammaa-samaadhi and so on. > So if I told you that I started out with meditating for half an hour 20 years ago, and now it is eight hours of regular practice, and I begin to refer to different stages of vipassana-nnana, saying that I have experienced all of these, would you then believe me? > Sukin: > What is the difference in understanding of the "wise" from whom one > initially hears the true Dhamma and continues to associate with, and the > "teacher" who then leads one to become a Sotapanna? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Even the dhamma was true the ear could not have been true. When the > teacher does not practice anything the pupil also does not practice > anything. Now is 2013. It is not the age when understanding on hearing > dhamma finishes everything. Nowadays it is neyya age. > But I was not referring to people of this age, but your suggestion that this happened even during the time of the Buddha. At that time, the teachers, including the Buddha, were enlightened, so the question is, what extra qualities / knowledge did those other teachers have to whom the students were sent? > Have to *do* practice. Without practice without *doing* is to say "not > walking on the path". > Have to hear and understand at the level of pariyatti! It is precisely because there is no understanding at this level at all, that the wrong idea about "doing" practice has been conceived of and followed. > Even simple viriya or effort is not enough to arise magga citta. > And effort must be Right Effort, conditioned by panna. Therefore when it is pariyatti understanding, the effort then is right and is the basis for effort accompanying panna of higher levels. > I do not say `wanting magga' `fastly develop magga naana' or anything > like that. But if there is no *practice* then the whole life will be > uselessly wasted and if die with this thought then this will lead > directly to niraya. (Because denied what the Buddha taught). > To not see the need to carefully develop understanding at the level of pariyatti or suttamaya panna *is* "denial of what the Buddha taught". And this can only be due to lack of understanding. So when this then leads to ideas about "meditation", this is where all kinds of akusala become directly or indirectly encouraged. And where does teaching wrong view as one kind of kammapatha lead to?! > Sukin: > > I know about such stories regarding the Buddha suggesting to some > disciple to go to this or that elder for further instructions. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Wrong. False. One was sent to an arahat who was about 7-year-old > one. > Oh come on Htoo. What are you going to quibble over next? > Sukin: > And in some cases, these elders gave a meditation subject to > contemplate upon. > You read this as further instructions. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Totally wrong. > So you don't read this as further instructions (to do)? > Sukin: > I read it as the Buddha knowing > what exactly would act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna to arise > in the case of someone ready for enlightenment. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: You said you are in infant stage in dhamma. Here the Buddha saw > that `maana' in that elder tipi.takadhara monk stopped him to be > enlightened. The 7 year old one ask him to do sweeping, carring water > walking into lake and soaked. After some threshing the elder was > taught to catch reptile at the mind door while all other 5 doors have > to be shut. > So tell me Htoo, how does the idea that Jhana practice is needed, agree with what you wrote here? The obstacle was mana and not any of the hindrances, wasn't it? Was the observation of the mind-door by the old monk done in Jhana state? > Sukin: > See, here itself is expression of wrong understanding. Would > understanding perceive as "gaps between meditative mind" or rather as > gaps between sense door and mind door processes or mind door and mind > door processes? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: You are thinking on what you ever read and not > understanding(dictionary word) what I worte. > This is practical matter and you will not be able to in line with it. > Well, if you have had the direct understanding, what you say will agree with the theory. There is no excuse for stating something so misleading as the idea of "gaps between meditative mind". > Sukin: > And you really believe that understanding of these gaps (bhavanga > cittas) come after one has continuous mindfulness of the vitthi cittas? > To me this is wrong thinking / conclusion as a result of wrong > understanding about the nature of dhammas, particularly the development > of the Path. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: You are wrong. Viithi cittas are in abhidhamma. You cannot see > this or that is a viithi citta. When you understand something it has > arisen and fallen away. Many many many cittas. > When it is not bhavanga it is vitthi. It is you who suggested that the gaps can be seen, and now you are pointing out to me that vitthi cittas themselves can't be understood? Another marathon post. :-/ Metta, Sukin #132127 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 5:29 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > I said "For vipassanaa..." > > Especially when in retreat for a limited time say 'a month or two months or so on'. > > Eating all the time, having sex frequently, listening to music frequently, watching TV or films frequently, meeting friends frequently and talking with them for a long time and so many others do have effect on "the progress of vipassana". > > Outside of the intensive training anything can be done, anything may be done except 'akusala' of kamma-patha power. > > I hope you are clear on the matter. ... S: What I find very clear in the Teachings is that it is the understanding of dhammas that is important, not the place, time or situation. This is why the main hindrance to satipatthana is wrong view. When there is an idea of "intensive training" or needing to be on a silent retreat in order to develop satipatthana, it is not the understanding of conditioned dhammas. Instead there is an idea of Self practising or looking for a shortcut at such times. Metta Sarah ==== #132128 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 5:32 pm Subject: Re: G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > S: Right.... dreams just thinking, not kamma patha. > > > > On the other hand, such killing under the influence of alcohol is the full act and ignorance (under the influence) doesn't lessen the deed, quite the contrary. > H: I think if killing fits with the requirements for paa.naatipaata then the killer committed 1st precept. If this happen and if the victim is his own father (blood-related) then this is patricide. In this case if the killer has not known the victim is his father he is still committing the crime of patricide. This is still anantariya kamma and next life is nowhere except aviici niraya (uninterrupted burning hell). ... S: Agreed. In dreaming, no being is killed. In the second example, a being is killed. Metta Sarah ===== #132129 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 5:43 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Theoretical understanding on anatta, the power to discuss fluently on dhamma, and the package of all knowledge as theory without practice is like the fish 'staying in ocean without ever reaching land' whereas the turtle reaches land. .... S: What is the practice you keep referring to? What dhamma is pariyatti? What dhamma is patipatti? What dhamma is pativedha? What dhamma is suta-maya-panna?, cinta-maya-panna?, bhavana-maya- panna? What dhamma is sacca nana, kinca nana, kata nana? Without right theory, right intellectual undersanding about present dhammas arising now, such as seeing and visible object, can there ever be right practice, direct understanding of presently appearing dhammas? ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: > > Each rupa is impermanent and what is impermanent is unsatisfactory and not-self - beyond anyone's control. > > > Without an understanding of rupa now, such as visible object, as distinct from nama now, such as seeing, there will never be the developed understanding of the impermanence of the visible object or other rupa appearing now. So the clear comprehension of the distinction between nama and rupa and the understanding that these are just elements, not self has to develop first. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > It is easy to say 'now'. But there are only a faw who would know > that present moment. .... S: No one knows. It is panna which knows and it has to begin to develop now, at this moment. Otherwise there will never be direct understanding, right practice. .... >H: 'Think' here I mean "endless day-dreaming on anything". Because if these are done then the students of dhamma will not be at the very present moment. .... S: Again there is the idea of controlling dhammas rather than understanding what is conditioned now already. If there are conditions to think about all sorts of useless things, the thinking is anatta. There can be understanding of the reality of thinking even now. ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: > > Equally impossible to "do satipatthana". Whilst there is an idea of someone 'doing' anything, it's not understanding and there will never be conditions for satipatthana to develop. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Please study on upadaana, clinging. You seem theoretically calculating on dhamma and trying to work out to have the solution. .... S: Quite the contrary! The development of understanding is not about calculationg or working out any solution. it's about understanding what appears right now - whether that be seeing, thinking, doubt or any other dhamma. It's not a matter of the word, but the characteristic that appears. Metta Sarah ===== #132130 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Arahat On The Same Day After Reminder nilovg Dear Htoo, Thank you for your post. I would like to add something. Op 31 jul 2013, om 15:57 heeft htoonaing@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > As you and DSGs know reality cannot be created, cannot be controled, cannot be destroyed. But here what the instruction means is "to cut off further thinking as far as possible and with enough time (of accumulations) seeing will be seen as seeing. That is reality will be reality nothing but reality and no person, no atta, no satta, no being. This is anatta. ------ N: People may try not to think, but that is impossible. Thinking arises because of conditions and even thinking can be realized as anattaa. As pa~n~naa develops there will eventually be less involvement in stories we think of, but this depends on conditions. Nina. #132131 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 1 aug 2013, om 03:35 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > I have also no problem at all with the Buddha's teachings indicated in the text you quoted above. But the text does not mean that khandhas or aayatanas are or are being called as parammatha dhammas/ultimate truth/reality by the Buddha. ------- N: Quoting the text about using conventional speech of "I" and "mine", I see this world of conventional truth as oposite to the world of khandhas, dhaatus, aayatanas. That is the point I wanted to stress. Nina. #132132 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 1 aug 2013, om 03:20 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > Thomas: But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees and knows bodily and mental phenomena as, for example, `anicca, dukkha, anatta'...I have no problem with the Buddha's teachings on the truth of the present moment: anicca, dukkha, anatta. ------ N: Yes, I see your point. I like to quote part of Sarah's post to Htoo today, since she clarifies what the present moment means. Sarah: > > Without an understanding of rupa now, such as visible object, as distinct from nama now, such as seeing, there will never be the developed understanding of the impermanence of the visible object or other rupa appearing now. So the clear comprehension of the distinction between nama and rupa and the understanding that these are just elements, not self has to develop first. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > It is easy to say 'now'. But there are only a few who would know > that present moment. .... S: No one knows. It is panna which knows and it has to begin to develop now, at this moment. Otherwise there will never be direct understanding, right practice>. (end quote). ------- N: It is good to consider more details: what is it exactly that pa~n~naa realizes as impermanent? It is not vague, but very concrete: seeing now, visible object now. You also mention the present moment, but more and more understanding of it has to be developed. It is only the present that can be directly known, not the past or the future. ------- Nina. #132133 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Arahat On The Same Day After Reminder htoonaing... Dear Nina, A few points. --------------------------- Nina: Dear Htoo, Thank you for your post. I would like to add something. Op 31 jul 2013, om 15:57 heeft htoonaing@... het volgende geschreven: > As you and DSGs know reality cannot be created, cannot be controled, cannot be destroyed. But here what the instruction means is "to cut off further thinking as far as possible and with enough time (of accumulations) seeing will be seen as seeing. That is reality will be reality nothing but reality and no person, no atta, no satta, no being. This is anatta. ------ N: People may try not to think, but that is impossible. Thinking arises because of conditions and even thinking can be realized as anattaa. As pa~n~naa develops there will eventually be less involvement in stories we think of, but this depends on conditions. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thinking totally stops in case of cessation practiced by arahats. [Nirodha-samaapatti]. Otherwise there will be thinking. Again thinking is a broad term and covers many meanings. Manovinnana may be referred as thinking. Vitakka may be referred to as thinking. Vicaara may also be referred to as thinking. What I discussed was ... In a dim light someone sees something (a short rope in serpentine position). 1. the 1st thought unit will contain (seeing, light, colour) 2. the 2nd thought unit will contain (shape of what has been seen) 3. the 3rd thought unit will contain (form of what has been seen) 4. the 4th thought unit might be (the essence of what is seen) 5. the 5th thought unit might be (the name of what is seen) 6. the 6th thought unit might be (the proper name for that) 7. the 7th thought unit might be (the nature of that) 8. the 8th thought unit might be (the past similar experiences) 9. the 9th thought unit might be (defilements in shaking manner) 10. ... ... ... ... One single thought unit may contain more than 100 viithi or so. Anyway if initially we reach 20th thought units this can be trained to cut down to 19th or 18th. With practice to 12th or 11th. I think it may be visible(not va.n.na here) to you what I would like to send. When minds run calmly seeing things as they are there seems no thought. Conscious mind in deeply calm state will look like thoughtless. With respect, Htoo Naing #132134 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 8:42 pm Subject: Re: G0matricide and patricide as garuka kamma htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > > S: Right.... dreams just thinking, not kamma patha. > > > > > > On the other hand, such killing under the influence of alcohol is the full act and ignorance (under the influence) doesn't lessen the deed, quite the contrary. > > > H: I think if killing fits with the requirements for paa.naatipaata then the killer committed 1st precept. If this happen and if the victim is his own father (blood-related) then this is patricide. In this case if the killer has not known the victim is his father he is still committing the crime of patricide. This is still anantariya kamma and next life is nowhere except aviici niraya (uninterrupted burning hell). > ... > S: Agreed. In dreaming, no being is killed. In the second example, a being is killed. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There were (and may be are) cases that people when in sleep get up from their place and walk to other place and kill someone. Walking in sleep is known as 'sonabulism'. Thery are sleep walker. In case of patricide if it fits the characteristics for killing then it becomes kamma-patha. With respect, Htoo Naing #132135 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 8:56 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: Dear Htoo, .... S: Quite the contrary! The development of understanding is not about calculationg or working out any solution. it's about understanding what appears right now - whether that be seeing, thinking, doubt or any other dhamma. It's not a matter of the word, but the characteristic that appears. Metta Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, thanks for your post on 'Re: anattaa'. It is clear. Good discussion. I think this thread comes to an end. One of the Sayadaws said vipassanaa is 'seeing characterisitcs of what appearing now'. Nothing can appear except ruupa or naama. With respect, Htoo Naing #132136 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 9:09 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_021 (DT 908 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: Dear Htoo, ... S: What I find very clear in the Teachings is that it is the understanding of dhammas that is important, not the place, time or situation. This is why the main hindrance to satipatthana is wrong view. When there is an idea of "intensive training" or needing to be on a silent retreat in order to develop satipatthana, it is not the understanding of conditioned dhammas. Instead there is an idea of Self practising or looking for a shortcut at such times. Metta Sarah ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Some time I read old posts in DSG. Some time useful posts that you made. I know what you here wanted to part me. But we may disagree freely and liberally :-)) The Buddha said to 'Baddavatii 30 brothers' to search for 'self'. I also searched. Mostly found are naama. Sometimes ruupa. Empty are they, charming part dve. Warmly path eight, trendy cart E. they = naama and ruupa, dve = naama or ruupa warmly = equally working parts in NEP. E = Eko dhammo = vimutti = nibbaana With respect, Htoo Naing #132137 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 10:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Dear Sukin, I think, it is simple for you even though you might deny you are not good at Paa.li. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Hello Htoo, > Sukin: > > Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the > Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > "Samaadhi.m bhaveto, bhikkhave, yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. > Yathaabhuuta.m pajaananto naamaruupa.m vipassati. Naamaruupa.m > vipassanto anicca.m passati. Anicca.m passanto dukkha.m passati. > Dukkha.m passanto anatta.m vijaanaati. Anatta.m jaananto samudaya.m > pahaayati. Samudaya.m pahaayanto nirodha.m bhavissati. Nirodha.m > bhavanto nibbaana.m sacchikara.nati." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Could you give a translation instead? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: samadi --> yathabuta --> namarupa --> anicca --> dukkha --> anatta --> samudaya pahaya --> nirodha --> nibbana To see things as they really are (naama or ruupa) co-centering is needed. If naama or ruupa is really seen its characterisitcs will be seen. The first is seeing that naama or ruupa arises and immediately fall away. This impermanence is not controlled by anyone. If nama or rupa is seen in real sense the 3 signs will be seen. If this is seen there arise dispassion. If lobha never arises again forever it is said to be 'nirodha' 'cessation'. When cessation is seen nibbaana is directly seen. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132138 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 10:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... > Htoo: > For the Path it needs many conditions. One of conditions is foundation > of pre-path. In pre-path siila has to be observed first but when > working with pre-path there are only 5 parts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You are saying that before there can be wisdom, there must be some level of accumulated Sila. How did you arrive at this conclusion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not conclusion. This is after hearing true dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You would first have had to hear the Dhamma and therefore had wisdom at the level of pariyatti arise, would you not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If so, does this not make "wisdom" the basis upon which further development occur? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is lokiya wisdom. Development is to lokuttara wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Wisdom leads to increase in other kinds of kusala rather than the other way round, is it not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The word wisdom is not equal to panna. Not all remembrance are sati. As you already know not all concentrations are sammaa-samaadhi. Not all effort are sammaa-vaayama. Kusalas are daana (offering), siila (observing precepts), bhaavanaa (developing). Daana is basic. Siila is a bit higher. Bhaavanaa is even higher. All are kaamaavacara kusala. If there is no pannindriya cetasika in kusala this kusala do not support further development. If with panna there will be further development. Panna is more than wisdom or understanding. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patience, was:Off to Canada nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 31 jul 2013, om 20:00 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Since patience is sometimes said to be the most important quality by the Buddha > > > > James: Actually, I don't think the Buddha ever said that. > > Yeah, he did. I don't have a quote handy, I don't think, but it was on the subject of the paramis, or virtues, that need to be developed to reach enlightenment, and in that context he said that patience was most important, because most people will just keep spinning between desire and aversion and never stop and go through the arduous process that it takes to get beyond that. ------ N: Dhammapada: Patience is the highest ascetism. I just heard a recording about patience, in Huahin. T.A.: She explained that in the course of insight patience grows, it is khanti ~naa.na (khanti is patience, ~naa.na is pa~n~naa). It is still weak at the first stage of insight that knows the difference between naama and ruupa. There are three degrees of patience: 1:from sammassana ~naa.na until udayabhaya~naa.na (understanding the arising and falling away of groups until the arising and falling away of each reality separately is realised). 2: From udayabhaya~naa.na until sankhaarupekkhaa ~naa.na (equanimity towards conditioned realities).3: From sankhaarupekkhaa ~naa.na up to anuloma ~naa.na (just before enlightenment). As to sammassana ~naa.na until udayabhaya~naa.na, this seems only one step, but after sammassana ~naa.na there are the defilements of vipassanaa that have to be overcome and this may take a long time. There is clinging to insight, to the asurance one feels. Acharn said that fact that pa~n~naa can overcome these defilements shows how great pa~n~naa is. ------ Nina. #132140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Arahat On The Same Day After Reminder nilovg Dear Htoo, Op 1 aug 2013, om 12:36 heeft htoonaing@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > One single thought unit may contain more than 100 viithi or so. Anyway if initially we reach 20th thought units this can be trained to cut down to 19th or 18th. With practice to 12th or 11th. I think it may be visible(not va.n.na here) to you what I would like to send. ------ N: When people read this they think of a self who can train to do this. It all depends on conditions, anattaa. Nina. #132141 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 11:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... >Htoo: > Even you have right view of impermanence samaadhi is required. Without > samaadhi you will not be on the right path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Are you referring to the samadhi as in one of the universal cetasikas, namely ekaggata? Or are you talking about the so-called practice of samadhi?If the latter, I am still waiting for a logical explanation regarding its role in the development of the Path. Why do you say that the practice of samadhi is needed for the development of Right View which sees into the characteristic of impermanence? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not referring to ekaggataa. Many suttas describe. Right view is separate. Concentration is separate. Mindfulness is separate. Effort is separate. I mean to see separately. They work together. Manodvaravithi for magga-appanaa has only 8 cittas. 1. minddoor adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjana citta) 2. 1st anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) 3. 2nd anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) 4. 3rd anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) 5. gotrabhu citta (like nibbana-door)_Kaamaavacara citta 6. magga citta (only 1 kha.na)_lokuttara citta (kusala) 7. 1st phala citta (lokuttara citta)_(vipaaka) 8. 2nd phala citta (lokuttara citta)_(vipaaka) This series is very short. This is the time of path arising. Only at that time there are 8 magga`nga or all 8 parts arise together. Even you understand well and you do not have wrong view and you have right-view of sammaa-ditthi its power has to be the same with other path factors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > You are talking on citta as if citta is a person. It does not have any quality. It just has characteristic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In talking about a citta rooted in moha and lobha, do you say that the particular citta has the characteristic of akusala? I was responding to your suggestion that the practice of samadhi makes it easier for the Path to arise. In referring to the difference in "quality" of citta, I was trying to point out that a jhana citta is different in terms of not only characteristic, but also of function, from that of the Path. So this is what you should be responding to rather than tell me that I am making citta into a person. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :) Apology. It has to be free from hindrances. 1. upacaara samaadhi (arise from any kind of 40 kammatthanas) 2. 1st jhaana quality 3. 2nd jhaana ,, 4. 3rd jhaana ,, 5. 4th jhaana ,, 6. 1st arupa-jhaana quality 7. 2nd arupa-jhaana ,, 8. 3rd arupa-jhaana ,, 9. 4th arupa-jhana ,, All 8 jhaanas are appanaa-samaadhi. Magga viithi is also appanaa-samaadhi. Phala is also appanaa-samaadhi. Phala-samaapatti is also appanaa-samaadhi. If not to one of these level wisdom will not be full wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > That depends on the object. All jhaanas are kusala. All jhaanas are > not akusala. Exception is abyaakata-jhaana of arahats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I was referring to the difference in kind of wisdom between that of Jhana and that of the Path, so yes, the object as well. So what do you say now, the object of Jhana is not one of the three characteristic of paramattha dhammas, but a concept. So please explain to me, how concentration on a concept with the understanding about "calm" and how this calm can be maintained through repeated concentration on a meditation subject, can make it easier for the the kind of concentration conditioned by Right View, the object of which is a characteristic of paramattha dhammas, to arise? What is the relationship between the kind of development where only sensuous desire is addressed and the defilements remain suppressed, and the one which sees the danger of ignorance and therefore aimed at the eradication of all defilements? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Simple jhaana is not leading to vipassana and to magga. There are 8 jhaanas. 4 ruupa jhaanas take 'pannati' as their object. 1st and 3rd arupa-jhana also take 'pannati' as their object. There are only 2 arupa-jhaana that take the object of 'naama'. They are 2rd arupa-jhaana and 4th arupa-jhaana. Their objects are cittas. Enter jhaana. Exit it and contemplate on that. If not close to jhaana one who attains will be sukka-vipassakaa. If close to jhaana it is yuganaddha-vipassakaa (both concentration and insight). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: NEP knows nibbaana, I have said that above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Yeah, but you should know that the question was whether the development of Right Understanding involves knowing all kinds of dhammas or only kusala. Since you were suggesting the need for samadhi and the suppression of the hindrances in order for Panna to arise, this is saying that only kusala can be the object of the kind of panna, after all when it is akusala which precedes, the hindrances are not suppressed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As long as there is niivara.na path-consciousness cannot arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > No. Not promotion. It is necessity. It can be seen in many sutta.m. > NEP has samaadhi called sammaa-samaadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If you reason that because samma-samadhi is mentioned as one of the eight factors of the Path, therefore this means that Jhana practice is needed, then you should also believe that samma sankapa, samma vaca, samma kammanta, samma ajiva, samma vayama, samma sati and samma ditthi are each separate practices to be followed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In prepath there is no direct involvement of siila-magga`nga. It just surrounds the prepath. Again prepath is worldly things. It is lokiya. Pa~nca`ngika magga or prepath have 5 factors. All have to be sammaa. Your sammaa-ditthi is also there. These 5 factors must have equal power. ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: So now can you please describe to me, what each of these practices are in the sense of "doing" something? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yeah. Viriya is *doing*. Vitakka of sammaa-sa`nkappa is *doing*. Concentration of at least upacaara-samaadhi is *doing*. Samma-sati is *doing*. These are *doing*, so they are called kaaraka magga`nga. Or working magga or *doing* magga. Without *doing* nothing can be true prepath. If no true prepath, there will never be path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You are totally wrong. > Noble Eightfold Path is just a moment. It is at magga kha.na. It is as the result of *practice*. The practice is vipassanaa. The practice is satipa.t.thaana. Without this anyone including Sammaasambuddhas, paccekabuddhas, and all saavaka cannot attain nibbaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I was referring to the Path as a particular kind of development corresponding with pariyatti > patipatti > pativedha or suttamaya panna > cintamaya panna > bhavanamaya panna. Was I totally wrong to do this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You stop at pariyatti level. Without *doing* there will not be pa.tivedha. So I said you are wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Should the reference to the development of the Path be limited only to magga? Anyway, you should have got my meaning and tried to respond to the main point, namely, the development of panna from the very beginning involves understanding all jatis of dhammas. This leads to panna growing keener becoming indriya, bala and so on, implying that no akusala (except for wrong view) would be a hindrance to such panna. The idea that samadhi is needed to suppress the hindrances must therefore be totally wrong! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not wrong(last part I refer to). Understanding at pariyatti level has passed and pa.tipatti is being *practiced* *doing is being done*. Bala, indriya, sammappadhaana, bojjha`nga all need *doing*. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > I was not jumping out of the discussion. Upekkhaa is also one of the 7 enlightenment-factors called bojjha`nga. In these there are many of > jhaana-factors. Without samaadhi there is no panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And there must be jhana factors now, without which you wouldn't think, read, or type any message. So without samadhi and vitakka - vicara, there will not be thinking with lobha or dosa either. Don't we therefore refer to these two roots and ignorance when talking about what is akusala rather than the role of samadhi? And is strength of akusala the result of accumulated samadhi? So why the need to see samadhi as leading to panna? It must be due to wrong understanding at the level of pariyatti, leading to wrong idea about patipatti! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nope. Sati, panna(dhammaavicaya), viriya (*doing*), piiti(jhaana factor), passaddhi (jhaana factor), samaadhi (jhaana factor), uppekkhaa (jhaana factor). So jhaana factors are very important. To be continued:- With Metta, Htoo Naing #132142 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... > Htoo: This is dilution. This is over-generalization. There are many > who are not true Buddhists. If true Theravadan Buddhists they are more > than 99.99999% right practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Only panna at the level of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha can be considered Dhamma students. There are many who you'd consider Theravada Buddhists but who in fact have not in this life, experienced any level of pariyatti understanding even. Therefore from where I stand, they have never been students of Dhamma at all. For them to have experienced right practice can only be the projection of wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Something must be wrong in your assumption. I would not proceed to discuss 'this point'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: Dhamma students should not follow anyone. >---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you desert all your teachers. This might include the Buddha > > who originally laid down the dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I go to my teacher and the Buddha because they encourage me to "develop understanding" and not just to "follow"! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You *said* "Dhamma students should not follow anyone." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > They should develop understanding of the Dhamma as taught in the > Tipitaka with the present moment as reference point, not even to > follow anything just because they read the Buddha as saying so. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Do you mean that "it is not needed to read what the Buddha said"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that understanding should lead the way. And because this is not what has happened with most so-called Buddhists today, that the idea of "meditation" for example, has become so popular, and there are so many corrupted Bhikkhus, and meditation teachers who have managed to amass so much wealth through setting up retreats, publication of books and receiving donations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You should not generalised. In countries where livelihood is high - feeding, electricity, water do matter. International meditation centre (IMC) in Yangon, Myanmar when the teacher U Ba Khin began to run retreats food, light, electricity, water and all were free. So also in other centres. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > "Sahaavassa dassana sampadaaya tayassu dhammaa jahita bhavanti. > Sakkaaya di.t.thi viicikicchita~nca siilabbata.m vaa pi yadatthi > ki~nci. Ida.m pi sa.mghe yatana.m pa.niita.m etena saccena suvatthi hotu." > Di.t.thi (the cetasika ditthi) is eradicated at the moment when path > consciousness arises. Before this there can be ditthi. You seem to > eradicate ditthi even before magga-citta arise while still doing > nothing of NEP. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Recognizing wrong view at the level of pariyatti understanding should not be read as suggesting that the wrong view has been eradicated. The detachment is reference to alobha cetasika accompanying any level of right understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You seem theoretically eradicate wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Another marathon post. :-/ Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. :) :). Yes Marathon. Actually I am not denying understanding but you are denying *doing*. I am not stubborn. But I believe *doing* is necessary. The case that 'the elder was sent to others and finally came to the young', I will post again when I catch the reference. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132143 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hi Htoo, > Dear Sukin, > > I think, it is simple for you even though you might deny > you are not good at Paa.li. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Hello Htoo, > > > Sukin: > > > > Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the > > Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise? > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > "Samaadhi.m bhaveto, bhikkhave, yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. > > Yathaabhuuta.m pajaananto naamaruupa.m vipassati. Naamaruupa.m > > vipassanto anicca.m passati. Anicca.m passanto dukkha.m passati. > > Dukkha.m passanto anatta.m vijaanaati. Anatta.m jaananto samudaya.m > > pahaayati. Samudaya.m pahaayanto nirodha.m bhavissati. Nirodha.m > > bhavanto nibbaana.m sacchikara.nati." > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Could you give a translation instead? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: samadi --> yathabuta --> namarupa --> anicca --> dukkha > --> anatta --> samudaya pahaya --> nirodha --> nibbana > > To see things as they really are (naama or ruupa) co-centering is needed. If naama or ruupa is really seen its characterisitcs will be seen. The first is seeing that naama or ruupa arises and immediately fall away. This impermanence is not controlled by anyone. If nama or rupa is seen in real sense the 3 signs will be seen. If this is seen there arise dispassion. If lobha never arises again forever it is said to be 'nirodha' 'cessation'. When cessation is seen nibbaana is directly seen. My little knowledge of Pali and ability to refer to the dictionary to try and translate, would condition quite a bit of restlessness and take me about one hour to do the job. So thanks for your effort. I can see your bias taking effect though..... What I now understand this particular quote to describe is the role of samadhi accompanying the highest level of vipassana. There is no indication that it refers to a separate practice re: Jhana. In any case, the quote is not an explanation, which is what I have been asking for and have yet to receive from you. I'll respond to your other posts tomorrow. Metta, Sukin #132144 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 4:20 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Dear Nina > N: I am involved also in stories, no end. The house is so very, very silent, deadly silent, without Lodewijk and I was feeling lonely. Now I am at the summer house, every year since I was a child, the house is empty ( rest of family coming later), the walls covered with photos. I've never been a collector of photos but there are so many here. Then I heard a recording about feeling lonely. T.A. said that when we feel lonely it is good to remember that there is not even "I" who is lonely. > It is only thinking, and I who feels lonely does not even exist. This helps. Just dhammas performing functions. The stories have their pull, of course, and we can enjoy people and places when there are conditions for that kind of thinking of those kinds of concepts and when there are conditions for feeling lonely we can remember that there are only dhammas performing functions. Of coure we can remember tgat when we are feeling happy in our attachments as well. Hang in there, Nina. Phil #132145 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 5:50 am Subject: Buddha didn't deny all kinds of "atta", much less the self. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N: When people read this they think of a self who can train to do this. >It all depends on conditions, anattaa. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Buddha never ever denied the self. He didn't even deny certain kinds of atta, read attakari sutta . http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html The standard teaching on anatta (not, not, self) wouldn't even work with (wrong) Christian idea of a soul, much less against empiric self. Christian soul has date of origin, so it arises. It can experience dukkha so it is not just-sukha, and it doesn't have full, cartoonish sort of control like omniscient God. With best wishes, Alex #132146 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:43 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Rob E. Thanks for your response! I have some further comments: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Since patience is sometimes said to be the most important quality by the Buddha > > > > James: Actually, I don't think the Buddha ever said that. > > Yeah, he did. I don't have a quote handy, I don't think, but it was on the subject of the paramis, or virtues, that need to be developed to reach enlightenment, and in that context he said that patience was most important, because most people will just keep spinning between desire and aversion and never stop and go through the arduous process that it takes to get beyond that. > This is not something the Buddha taught. You see, this is a good example of why I can't really contribute anything to this list because I don't think it really discusses what the Buddha taught, it discusses Theravada Tradition as if that is what the Buddha taught. From Wikipedia: The Theravadin teachings on paramitas can be found in canonical books (Jataka, Apadana, Buddhava?sa, Cariyapi?aka) and post-canonical commentaries which were written to supplement the Pali canon at a later time, and thus they are not an original part of the Theravadin teachings.[4][5] The oldest parts of the Sutta Pi?aka (for example, Majjhima Nikaya, Digha Nikaya, Sa?yutta Nikaya and the A?guttara Nikaya) do not have any mention of the paramitas as a category (though they are all mentioned individually).[6] Some scholars even refer to the teachings of the paramitas as a semi-Mahayana[7] teaching which was added to the scriptures at a later time, in order to appeal to the interests and needs of the lay community and to popularize their religion.[8] However, these views rely on the early scholarly presumption of Mahayana originating with religious devotion and appeal to laity. More recently, scholars have started to open up early Mahayana literature which is very ascetic and expounds the ideal of the monk's life in the forest.[9] Therefore, the practice of the paramitas is closer to the ideals of the ascetic tradition of the srama?a in Buddhism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81#Therav.C4.81da_Buddhism One doesn't need to develop "virtues" in order to achieve enlightenment. All that is needed is to follow the Eightfold Path. Even a murderer, who had hardly no time to develop any virtues, became enlightened just by following the Eightfold Path. The idea of "Buddhist Virtues" came about so that people could feel like they are really doing something on the Buddhist path when they really aren't doing anything but wasting time. The only thing that paramitas will get you is rebirth in deva heaven, not enlightenment. Metta, James #132147 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:02 am Subject: Re: Patience, was:Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Nina. Thanks for these details! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > As to sammassana ~naa.na until udayabhaya~naa.na, this seems only one step, but after sammassana ~naa.na there are the defilements of vipassanaa that have to be overcome and this may take a long time. There is clinging to insight, to the asurance one feels. Acharn said that fact that pa~n~naa can overcome these defilements shows how great pa~n~naa is. Does panna overcome these defilements itself through its own seeing? Are there specific cetasikas that arise to eradicate the defilements of panna? If you can say what they are, I would be very interested. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #132148 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:22 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > > Since patience is sometimes said to be the most important quality by the Buddha > > > > > > James: Actually, I don't think the Buddha ever said that. > > > > Yeah, he did. I don't have a quote handy, I don't think, but it was on the subject of the paramis, or virtues, that need to be developed to reach enlightenment, and in that context he said that patience was most important, because most people will just keep spinning between desire and aversion and never stop and go through the arduous process that it takes to get beyond that. > > > > This is not something the Buddha taught. Yeah, it is - I know better than to throw Abhidhamma at you. This was in the teachings of the Buddha himself. The paramis or virtues, were enumerated by the Buddha in sutta, not in later commentaries. Here's one reference, among others, so we can get aligned on this discussion: MN 21: Kakacupama Sutta — The Parable of the Saw/The Simile of the Saw {M i 122} [Buddharakkhita (excerpt) | Thanissaro (excerpt)]. The Buddha tells the story of a wise slave who deliberately tests her mistress's patience. The Buddha invokes several memorable similes here to illustrate the correct way to develop patience. > You see, this is a good example of why I can't really contribute anything to this list because I don't think it really discusses what the Buddha taught, it discusses Theravada Tradition as if that is what the Buddha taught. My references are from the suttas - words of the Buddha. > From Wikipedia: > The Theravadin teachings on paramitas can be found in canonical books (Jataka, Apadana, Buddhava?sa, Cariyapi?aka) and post-canonical commentaries which were written to supplement the Pali canon at a later time, and thus they are not an original part of the Theravadin teachings.[4][5] The oldest parts of the Sutta Pi?aka (for example, Majjhima Nikaya, Digha Nikaya, Sa?yutta Nikaya and the A?guttara Nikaya) do not have any mention of the paramitas as a category (though they are all mentioned individually).[6] > > Some scholars even refer to the teachings of the paramitas as a semi-Mahayana[7] teaching which was added to the scriptures at a later time, in order to appeal to the interests and needs of the lay community and to popularize their religion.[8] However, these views rely on the early scholarly presumption of Mahayana originating with religious devotion and appeal to laity. More recently, scholars have started to open up early Mahayana literature which is very ascetic and expounds the ideal of the monk's life in the forest.[9] Therefore, the practice of the paramitas is closer to the ideals of the ascetic tradition of the srama?a in Buddhism. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81#Therav.C4.81da_Buddhism There is a difference between the suttas that are considered later additions which talk about the paramis, and the mentions of both the paramis as a grouping and of patience in particular by the Buddha himself in specific suttas that are agreed to be authentic. Both exist. The paramitas as expressed in Mahayana is a later extrapolation but is not what I am referring to. > One doesn't need to develop "virtues" in order to achieve enlightenment. All that is needed is to follow the Eightfold Path. Even a murderer, who had hardly no time to develop any virtues, became enlightened just by following the Eightfold Path. Without developing the enlightenment factors one won't develop enlightenment. Following the eightfold path is not so easy. Maybe a murderer can follow the path, but to do so would have to develop some of the qualities related to the path. > The idea of "Buddhist Virtues" came about so that people could feel like they are really doing something on the Buddhist path when they really aren't doing anything but wasting time. The only thing that paramitas will get you is rebirth in deva heaven, not enlightenment. By themselves they are supports, not enlightenment factors. They are still significant however. Try developing concentration/samatha without patience sometime - not possible. I think that's kind of obvious. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #132149 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 10:20 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada glenjohnann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Then I heard a recording about feeling lonely. T.A. said that when we feel lonely it is good to remember that there is not even "I" who is lonely. > > It is only thinking, and I who feels lonely does not even exist. This helps. A. This is very helpful, I find. We can become so absorbed in the stories about our difficult plight and then just a moment of reflection about dhamma, something we recall A.S. saying or a simple thought, just thinking, but it can put an end to that particular story and the thinking changes, like changing gears. But we don't know where it will go - all conditioned and no self directing. No I who is lonely, but still thinking that there is no I who is lonely, just dhammas. It is a beginning, though. > > > Just dhammas performing functions. The stories have their pull, of course, and we can enjoy people and places when there are conditions for that kind of thinking of those kinds of concepts and when there are conditions for feeling lonely we can remember that there are only dhammas performing functions. Of coure we can remember tgat when we are feeling happy in our attachments as well. > A. I started thinking about whether it is more difficult (or less frequent) to remember that there are conditions for all kinds of thinking when we are feeling happy in our attachment than when we are mired in dosa. Quickly realized that this is useless line of thought - it will be whatever it is, due to conditions. No choosing, no directing - speculation useless. Ann > #132150 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hello Htoo, > > Htoo: > > For the Path it needs many conditions. One of conditions is foundation > > of pre-path. In pre-path siila has to be observed first but when > > working with pre-path there are only 5 parts. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > You are saying that before there can be wisdom, there must be some > level of accumulated Sila. How did you arrive at this conclusion? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Not conclusion. This is after hearing true dhamma. > You mean that you did not infer it, but the Buddha said exactly this somewhere in the Suttas? Which ones? You would still however have to explain to me why this is so, though. So when you do provide a quote, please also give an explanation as to why you believe this to be true. > Sukin: > You would first have had to hear the Dhamma and therefore had wisdom > at the level of pariyatti arise, would you not? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is true. > So the idea that Sila of some good level is needed prior to the development of wisdom is based on what particular understanding with regard to the Dhamma, exactly? > Sukin: > > If so, does this not make "wisdom" the basis upon which further > development occur? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is lokiya wisdom. Development is to lokuttara wisdom. > Can there be lokuttara wisdom without lokiya wisdom? > Sukin: > Wisdom leads to increase in other kinds of kusala rather than the > other way round, is it not? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The word wisdom is not equal to panna. > Would you like to suggest a better English word for panna than wisdom? But is this even important? Why not understand how it is being used by the other person? Besides, you just differentiated between lokiya *wisdom* and lokuttara *wisdom*, is this wisdom the same as panna? What about suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna, why the use of "panna" in the Pali? And if wisdom is not panna cetasika, which cetasika would it be? I am confused. > Not all remembrance are sati. > Sati is a sobhana cetasika which arises only with kusala cittas and the kiriya cittas of the Arahat, sanna is a universal cetasika arising with all jati of cittas. And what is your point here? > As you already know not all concentrations are sammaa-samaadhi. > Not all effort are sammaa-vaayama. > > Kusalas are daana (offering), siila (observing precepts), bhaavanaa > (developing). > > Daana is basic. Siila is a bit higher. Bhaavanaa is even higher. All > are kaamaavacara kusala. If there is no pannindriya cetasika in kusala > this kusala do not support further development. If with panna there > will be further development. Panna is more than wisdom or understanding. > > So you are trying to tell me that intellectual understanding or pariyatti or suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna are not really reference to panna cetasika. I wonder if this is done in order to give validity to your other claim, namely that, accumulated sila is a prerequisite for the development of panna? After all, there is no panna in the beginning, and therefore one must practice sila first and followed by the practice of samadhi, right? If this is what you are trying to do, although clever, I consider it a nonsense idea, and will explain to you why if interested. Can you tell me if panna is not understanding, which cetasika then performs this latter function? Metta, Sukin #132151 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 2:06 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Rob E., Thanks for your response and the obvious time and effort you put into it! I have responded below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Yeah, it is - I know better than to throw Abhidhamma at you. James: Oh, if it was only Abhidhamma I could probably still be on the reservation. But I don't believe the Buddha taught Abhidhamma, Commentaries, some Vinaya, Commentaries, and some suttas. Most significantly, I don't believe the Buddha taught the Satipatthana Sutta in its current form. Thus, I don't believe mindfulness can be a direct path to enlightenment. So, you see, I am far off the Theravada reservation. :-) This was in the teachings of the Buddha himself. The paramis or virtues, were enumerated by the Buddha in sutta, not in later commentaries. > James: If you can show me one sutta where the Buddha enumerated the 10 paramitas and described them as enlightenment factors, I will eat my words. But I don't believe there is any such sutta. > Here's one reference, among others, so we can get aligned on this discussion: > > MN 21: Kakacupama Sutta — The Parable of the Saw/The Simile of > the Saw {M i 122} [Buddharakkhita (excerpt) | Thanissaro > (excerpt)]. > The Buddha tells the story of a wise slave who deliberately > tests her mistress's patience. The Buddha invokes several > memorable similes here to illustrate the correct way to develop > patience. > James: Well, of course the Buddha spoke about patience and the importance of patience, but he didn't describe it as a factor of enlightenment. > > My references are from the suttas - words of the Buddha. > James: The Buddha was giving a teaching to a householder about having patience with her slave- that is hardly proof to me about patience being a prerequisite for enlightenment. > > From Wikipedia: > > The Theravadin teachings on paramitas can be found in canonical books (Jataka, Apadana, Buddhava?sa, Cariyapi?aka) and post-canonical commentaries which were written to supplement the Pali canon at a later time, and thus they are not an original part of the Theravadin teachings.[4][5] The oldest parts of the Sutta Pi?aka (for example, Majjhima Nikaya, Digha Nikaya, Sa?yutta Nikaya and the A?guttara Nikaya) do not have any mention of the paramitas as a category (though they are all mentioned individually).[6] > > > > Some scholars even refer to the teachings of the paramitas as a semi-Mahayana[7] teaching which was added to the scriptures at a later time, in order to appeal to the interests and needs of the lay community and to popularize their religion.[8] However, these views rely on the early scholarly presumption of Mahayana originating with religious devotion and appeal to laity. More recently, scholars have started to open up early Mahayana literature which is very ascetic and expounds the ideal of the monk's life in the forest.[9] Therefore, the practice of the paramitas is closer to the ideals of the ascetic tradition of the srama?a in Buddhism. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81#Therav.C4.81da_Buddhism > > There is a difference between the suttas that are considered later additions which talk about the paramis, James: There are no later suttas which talk about the paramitas. They are spoken of in later books of the Buddhist cannon, not suttas. These books were written by later monks after the Buddha's paranibbana. and the mentions of both the paramis as a grouping and of patience in particular by the Buddha himself in specific suttas that are agreed to be authentic. Both exist. James: The paramitas are mentioned in various suttas but they are not listed in one sutta and proclaimed to be prerequisites for enlightenment. That wasn't done until after the Buddha's paranibbana. The paramitas as expressed in Mahayana is a later extrapolation but is not what I am referring to. > James: I think they are basically the same. Actually, Theravada monks probably copied the idea from Mahayana monks, or vice versa. > > By themselves they are supports, not enlightenment factors. They are still significant however. > James: Well, okay here you are changing your stance somewhat. Now you aren't saying that they are enlightenment factors, they are "supports". Maybe. I don't know. I would have to become enlightened and get back to you on that. :-) > Try developing concentration/samatha without patience sometime - not possible. I think that's kind of obvious. > James: No, it is not so obvious to me. I guess it depends on how you define patience. If you define patience as in "Oh, I have plenty of time to get this done", then no I don't agree with you. If you define patience as "I must endure that which is difficult or causes me stress." Then yes I do agree with you. I am reminded of the story of Ananada. He never really rushed to become enlightened because he just enjoyed being in the Buddha's company and helping the Buddha. However, after the Buddha's paranibbana he was told that he wouldn't be able to be at the first Buddhist Council unless he was enlightened- so he should hurry up and get enlightened already! No one had any "patience" about the matter. He needed to get enlightened and to do it in a hurry. So, he went into seclusion and worked his tail off. Actually, the moment he became enlightened he did so as he was about to lie down from exhaustion, being the only monk to become enlightened not in one of the four body postures (sitting, standing, lying, walking). > Best, > Rob E. Metta, James #132152 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ... > ... Without an understanding of rupa now, such as visible object, as distinct from nama now, such as seeing, there will never be the developed understanding of the impermanence of the visible object or other rupa appearing now. So the clear comprehension of the distinction between nama and rupa and the understanding that these are just elements, not self has to develop first. ... Th: But, according to the SN suttas, the Buddha teaches that first he/she, at the present moment, sees the five aggregates (i.e., nama-rupa) as anicca (impermanent); seeing them as anicca, he sees them as dukkha (suffering); seeing them as dukkha, he sees them as anatta (not-self) (cf. Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 53, 55-6, 162-3). Thomas #132153 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 5:00 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > Dear Nina > > > N: I am involved also in stories, no end. The house is so very, very silent, deadly silent, without Lodewijk and I was feeling lonely. I don't want to be indelicate but is Lodewijk okay? The way you write here makes me think Lodewijk passed away. I haven't been on the list in a long time so I don't know. (If so, I am so very sad and sorry about that! I really like Lodewijk!! He was always even-minded about Dhamma issues. He often said, "James has a point". Now, that makes me really love that guy!! :-)) Best wishes to you. Metta, James #132154 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 5:32 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Hi James, Sadly, Lodewijk passed away last September. He'd been ill for a while. You're not being indelicate, you wouldn't have known. You're quite correct - he could always see the other point of view and appreciated your interest and expressions (read: disagreements!) with what some of us would be saying. Nina has been incredibly brave and joined some of us for a wonderful Dhamma trip in Thailand in January. She wrote an excellent series from the discussions with A.Sujin during that time. Unfortunately she broke her hip after her return and was in Rehabilitation for a few weeks, but is now home, dedicating herself to sharing the Dhamma as usual. Sad and joyful stories..... but only ever this moment of seeing or thinking. Thinking can think about anything, anyone, but in reality, no anything, no anyone... just mental and physical realities arising and passing away. I just stepped in to reply to help Nina if she'd prefer not to go into the 'story' again. I always appreciate your kind concern for everyone. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > I don't want to be indelicate but is Lodewijk okay? The way you write here makes me think Lodewijk passed away. I haven't been on the list in a long time so I don't know. (If so, I am so very sad and sorry about that! I really like Lodewijk!! He was always even-minded about Dhamma issues. He often said, "James has a point". Now, that makes me really love that guy!! :-)) #132155 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 5:48 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > >H:Cuu.lapanthaka seemed poorly accumulated. He did not seem to know as you know now. But he after attaining arahatship could preached dhamma even in front of the Buddha (as the Buddha asked him to do so). > .... > S: He had accumulated right understanding over countless life-times and had listened to a lot of Abhidhamma detail - so much so when conditions were right, there was sufficient wisdom for arahatship. We cannot tell from the outer appearances. As you often stress, only the Buddha has full knowledge of all asaya-anusaya (tendencies). ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Unseen accumulations. > > If you were in place of Mahaa-Panthaka, the brother of Cuu.la-Panthaka who attained 8 jhaanas and got etadagga in aruupa-jhaana you would have said "Hi! Cuulapanthaka, you do not have enough accumulations. Dhamma have to be studied for a long long time so that it becomes accumulated. You do not "do the practice"". ... S: No, that's about the opposite of what I'd have said! I'd have said that I couldn't know another's accumulations and would have continued to talk about present dhammas if he had any interest to listen. We never know when understanding may arise and develop. I would have stressed that it's never 'Cula Panthaka' or anyone else who practises and it's never a matter of 'do the practice'. Understanding is a conditioned reality and when it arises it is by conditions and falls away immediately. It never arises through an idea of Someone practising. No one but the Buddha knew what would be the most helpful reminders for him at that time. Metta Sarah ======= #132156 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha sarahprocter... Dear Thomas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are always only dhammas, the present-moment reality"? > > But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees (passati) and knows (jaanaati) the bodily and mental phenomena `dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as `anicca, dukkha, anatta', as `the four truths', as `the middle way', and as `pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa'. .... S: And in reality it is pa~n~naa, right understanding which sees or realises the truth about dhammas, not any person or being. "The past should neither be longed for nor dwelled in and the future neither desired, searched nor urged; what is past, not real anymore, is dead & gone, and the future, not real now, have yet to come!" Majjhima Nikaya III, 131 S: Only ever present dhammas arising and falling away. Metta Sarah ===== #132157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: About Lodewijk. Was: Off to Canada nilovg Dear James, Nice to correspond with you again. Op 2 aug 2013, om 09:00 heeft Buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I don't want to be indelicate but is Lodewijk okay? The way you write here makes me think Lodewijk passed away. ------- N: No, you are not indelicate. Thank you for your kind words about Lodewijk. Sarah explained all. He passed away last year September after a very aggressive prostate cancer. Aftrwards in January I took a trip to Thailand. Here I received many effective reminders about what is really true, not the stories. That was the best medicine. The recovery after my accident (I fell flat down in a tram) goes really slowly. But I hope to be able to go to Thailand again next year January. Nina. #132158 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:12 pm Subject: Re: New group member, sarahprocter... Dear Christina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "quietstormjazz63" wrote: > Hello, My name is Cristina, I live in Louisiana, USA. I study the dharma from cd's and meditate often. I have no group to talk to about my studies and hope to find refuge with this group. I was not sure how to start my conversation, so I picked this place to start. Sorry for interupting your conversation. I look forward to studing with you daily. ... S: I'd also like to welcome you here and encourage you to share your studies and interest in the Dhamma. You're not interrupting anything! For newcomers, it is often best to just raise your own topic and questions in your own words and ignore other threads in the beginning which make little sense or are full of difficult terminology. When you raise your own points, we will respond in the same language and you can follow just these threads in the beginning. We all like talking to newcomers and the simpler the questions, the better! Metta Sarah ===== #132159 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:17 pm Subject: The Passing of Lodewijk... buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Nina), Thanks for your response and explaining the situation with the passing of Lodewijk. This means a lot to me. I have some more replies in text: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi James, > > Sadly, Lodewijk passed away last September. He'd been ill for a while. You're not being indelicate, you wouldn't have known. James: Gosh, I don't know why but I do feel guilty that I wasn't here on the list to provide some comfort to Nina at that time. She and Lodewijk have both been so sweet to me!! I am sorry I was absent during that time of trouble and stress.... You're quite correct - he could always see the other point of view and appreciated your interest and expressions (read: disagreements!) with what some of us would be saying. > James: Oh yes, I remember Lodewijk very fondly. He was a wonderful old man- the kind of old man you want to learn a lot from but are too afraid to approach too closely. lol :-)) I loved him to bits! I think that this world has lost a truly wonderful person!! > Nina has been incredibly brave and joined some of us for a wonderful Dhamma trip in Thailand in January. She wrote an excellent series from the discussions with A.Sujin during that time. > James: Yes, I am sure that she did keep working on the Buddha's teaching as she knew it. They are/were a very dynamic duo and I love them both for different reasons. Nina would never stop her work!! (that is highly respectable). > Unfortunately she broke her hip after her return and was in Rehabilitation for a few weeks, but is now home, dedicating herself to sharing the Dhamma as usual. > James: Oh my goodness, I am so sorry that Nina broke her hip! You know as I near middle age (44) I suddenly find my whole body falling apart! My bones are stiff; my muscles are stiff; my joints are stiff; but my golden organ isn't stiff anymore!!! LOL! ;-)) It is a tough place to be but we all have to go there. Just take care of yourself... > I just stepped in to reply to help Nina if she'd prefer not to go into the 'story' again. > James: Yes, thank you Sarah. I am sorry if I was indelicate in the first place. If I would stay more connected to the group I would have known. I blame myself for not being more connected to the list!!! I will check in more often for now now. > I always appreciate your kind concern for everyone. > > Metta > > Sarah > Metta, James > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > > I don't want to be indelicate but is Lodewijk okay? The way you write here makes me think Lodewijk passed away. I haven't been on the list in a long time so I don't know. (If so, I am so very sad and sorry about that! I really like Lodewijk!! He was always even-minded about Dhamma issues. He often said, "James has a point". Now, that makes me really love that guy!! :-)) > #132160 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, I'd like to just pick up on one point in your discussion with Sukin: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: >H: All jhaanas are kusala. All jhaanas are not akusala. Exception is abyaakata-jhaana of arahats. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>Sukin: If it is the one related to the development of samatha / jhana, > what relationship does this have to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path? .... > Htoo: Sahajaata paccaya. Conascent condition. ... Sarah: If you are referring to samatha bhavana and mundane jhana, then these cittas have their specific objects and are not path factors, are they? Therefore, they cannot condition samma ditthi of the path or other path factors by sahajata paccaya as they do not arise together. If instead, you are referring to lokuttara jhana, the supramundane concentration that is equivalent in strength to mundane jhana at moments of enlightenment, then the object is nibbana and it arises as a result of the development of the path. ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>Sukin: If you are suggesting that a moment of deep samadhi achieved as a result of one kind of wisdom can lead to arising of the other kind of wisdom,please tell me by what paccaya this happens? If you say that this is due to the hindrances being suppressed at those moments, then the question is, by what condition does it remain suppressed in the following moment when the panna is of a different kind? ... >Htoo: Sahajaata ... Sarah: Again, you seem to be suggesting that mundane jhana (or prior samatha bhavana) conditions the path factors to arise by sahajata paccaya. Can you explain how this is possible when they do not arise at the same time or share the same object? ... Metta Sarah ==== #132161 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hi Sarah, Htoo, > > I'd like to just pick up on one point in your discussion with Sukin: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > , "htoonaing@..." > wrote: > >H: All jhaanas are kusala. All jhaanas are not akusala. Exception is > abyaakata-jhaana of arahats. > > ---------------------------------------------------------->>Sukin: > If it is the one related to the development of samatha / jhana, > > what relationship does this have to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path? > .... > > Htoo: Sahajaata paccaya. Conascent condition. > ... > Sarah: If you are referring to samatha bhavana and mundane jhana, then > these cittas have their specific objects and are not path factors, are > they? Therefore, they cannot condition samma ditthi of the path or > other path factors by sahajata paccaya as they do not arise together. > > If instead, you are referring to lokuttara jhana, the supramundane > concentration that is equivalent in strength to mundane jhana at > moments of enlightenment, then the object is nibbana and it arises as > a result of the development of the path. > ... > > ---------------------------------------------------------->>Sukin: > If you are suggesting that a moment of deep samadhi achieved as a > result of one kind of wisdom can lead to arising of the other kind of > wisdom,please tell me by what paccaya this happens? If you say that > this is due to the hindrances being suppressed at those moments, then > the question is, by what condition does it remain suppressed in the > following moment when the panna is of a different kind? > ... > >Htoo: Sahajaata > ... > Sarah: Again, you seem to be suggesting that mundane jhana (or prior > samatha bhavana) conditions the path factors to arise by sahajata > paccaya. Can you explain how this is possible when they do not arise > at the same time or share the same object? > Thanks Sarah for your input. I somehow missed this part of Htoo's post in my reply. But I remember wondering at the time, what happened to Htoo the Abhidhamma expert?! ;-) Metta, Sukin #132162 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 6:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: About Lodewijk. Was: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear James, > Nice to correspond with you again. Yes, it is nice to correspond with you also. I am sorry it has been so long on my part. > Op 2 aug 2013, om 09:00 heeft Buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > I don't want to be indelicate but is Lodewijk okay? The way you write here makes me think Lodewijk passed away. > ------- > N: No, you are not indelicate. Thank you for your kind words about Lodewijk. Sarah explained all. He passed away last year September after a very aggressive prostate cancer. James: Thank you for letting me know and I am sorry I asked so openly on a public list. I don't have any other way of knowing what happened. I have been gone a very long time. I am sorry I wasn't there for you Nina for the difficult experience. We all need friends in that kind of experience. I am your friend and always will be. Take care of yourself and always keep on keeping on!! Aftrwards in January I took a trip to Thailand. Here I received many effective reminders about what is really true, not the stories. That was the best medicine. James: Yes, that is the best medicine for becoming pure and strong again. It is hard but you should focus again on what is true; again and again. > The recovery after my accident (I fell flat down in a tram) goes really slowly. But I hope to be able to go to Thailand again next year January. James: Oh gosh, Nina, I am so sorry you had that terrible fall in a tram. You know, I really hate those things! I have to ride them everyday in Taiwan and they drive freaking me crazy!! But, Nina, you just have to overcome that bullsh*t. You can do it! It isn't about the tram, it is about you honey, sweetheart. > Nina. > Metta, James #132163 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha didn't deny all kinds of "atta", much less the self. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 1 aug 2013, om 21:50 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha never ever denied the self. He didn't even deny certain kinds of atta, read attakari sutta . ------ N: -------- N: We have to consider the context. The element of endeavoring, etc. There are just elements. In conventional sense we can think of self or other, but, le us not forget that these are only elements that do not stay for a moment. We also have to remember many other suttas where the Buddha expressively said that there is no attaa. He spoke about anattaa sa~n~naa. Nina. #132164 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: About Lodewijk. Was: Off to Canada nilovg Dear James, Op 2 aug 2013, om 10:50 heeft Buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I have been gone a very long time. I am sorry I wasn't there for you Nina for the difficult experience. We all need friends in that kind of experience. I am your friend and always will be. Take care of yourself and always keep on keeping on!! ------ N: You are so kind, I appreciate that. You yourself know what a loss means: your brother, your sister. I had the support of many friends, and in Thailand especially. They were there for me at difficult moments. Ell lost her husband Ivan at that time and we all went on a boat out to the sea to release his ashes. It was an occasion for many helpful reminders. With warmest regards, Nina. #132165 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:50 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > >H:Cuu.lapanthaka seemed poorly accumulated. He did not seem to know as you know now. But he after attaining arahatship could preached dhamma even in front of the Buddha (as the Buddha asked him to do so). > > .... > > S: He had accumulated right understanding over countless life-times and had listened to a lot of Abhidhamma detail - so much so when conditions were right, there was sufficient wisdom for arahatship. We cannot tell from the outer appearances. As you often stress, only the Buddha has full knowledge of all asaya-anusaya (tendencies). > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Unseen accumulations. > > > > If you were in place of Mahaa-Panthaka, the brother of Cuu.la-Panthaka who attained 8 jhaanas and got etadagga in aruupa-jhaana you would have said "Hi! Cuulapanthaka, you do not have enough accumulations. Dhamma have to be studied for a long long time so that it becomes accumulated. You do not "do the practice"". > ... > S: No, that's about the opposite of what I'd have said! > > I'd have said that I couldn't know another's accumulations and would have continued to talk about present dhammas if he had any interest to listen. > > We never know when understanding may arise and develop. I would have stressed that it's never 'Cula Panthaka' or anyone else who practises and it's never a matter of 'do the practice'. Understanding is a conditioned reality and when it arises it is by conditions and falls away immediately. It never arises through an idea of Someone practising. > > No one but the Buddha knew what would be the most helpful reminders for him at that time. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahaapanthaka taught a verse to Cuu.lapanthaka. Cuu.lapanthaka could not remember what he learned. He did not have understanding. Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. With respect, Htoo Naing (PS: :-) Cuu.lapanthaka was *doing*. Understanding followed later. *Doing* came first, understanding followed.) #132166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patience, was:Off to Canada nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 2 aug 2013, om 01:02 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > As to sammassana ~naa.na until udayabhaya~naa.na, this seems only one step, but after sammassana ~naa.na there are the defilements of vipassanaa that have to be overcome and this may take a long time. There is clinging to insight, to the asurance one feels. Acharn said that fact that pa~n~naa can overcome these defilements shows how great pa~n~naa is. > > Does panna overcome these defilements itself through its own seeing? Are there specific cetasikas that arise to eradicate the defilements of panna? If you can say what they are, I would be very interested. ------ N: Pa~n~naa performs its function of understanding whatever reality arises, also akusala dhamma. It is assisted by the other sobhana cetasikas that accompany it, like sati, hiri, ottappa (shame and fear of blame), alobha, and many others. They are all part of sankhaarakkhandha (khandha of formations), and they work together. Nina. #132167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 2 aug 2013, om 06:51 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > But, according to the SN suttas, the Buddha teaches that first he/she, at the present moment, sees the five aggregates (i.e., nama-rupa) as anicca (impermanent); ----- N: First? How come? He should first know precisely the characteristics of the dhammas that appear, before he can know them as impermanent, etc. Not possible if he is not sure what seeing is and what visible object is. Without developing insight he mixes them all, puts them together as a collection of things. Nina. #132168 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 9:58 pm Subject: Re: Lodewijk's speech - anusayas philofillet Dear Group Below, a very useful passage from SPD on accumulations. Understanding accumulations helps us to develop wisdom and equanimity with respect to conditioned patterns of behaviour, not the story of a person behaving badly, or well, just accumulations of cittas performing functions, in line with conditions. And moments of understanding accumulate too, as long as we are not greedy for progress, there is progress. But the greed for progress is deeply accumulated.... Anyways, enough of that. Please read the excellent passage from SPD. Phil > The javana viithi-cittas that are kusala and those which are kusala arise > and fall away in succession and they accumulate kusala or akusala all the > time. This conditions each person to have different inclinations, a > different character and a different behaviour. The accumulations in the > citta of each person are most intricate. Also the arahats, those who have > reached perfection, have different inclinations, they excel in different > qualities. Venerable Såriputta was preeminent in wisdom, venerable Mahaa > Moggallaana in superpowers, venerable Mahaa Kassapa in the observance of > ascetical practices, which he also encouraged others to observe, and > venerable Anuruddha was preeminent in clairvoyance. The javana > viithi-cittas of each one of us arrange themselves in their own series or > continuity and accumulate different kinds of kusala and of akusala time > and again, and this is the reason that, at the present time, we all think, > speak and act in completely different ways. > > Cittas that are kusala, akusala and mahaa-kiriya which arrange themselves > in a series of javana, cause people to have a different behaviour through > body and speech. It could happen that people who saw an arahat had > contempt for him because they judged him by his outward behaviour, which > he had accumulated for an endlessly long time. The Brahman Vassakaara, the > prime minister of Magadha, for example, made a serious mistake by > misjudging an arahat from his outward behaviour. When he saw Mahaa > Kacchana coming down from a mountain he said that Mahaa Kacchana behaved > like a monkey. Vassakaara's haughtiness was conditioned by the > accumulation of his javana viithi-cittas. The Buddha told him to ask Mahaa > Kacchana forgiveness, but his accumulated conceit was the condition that > he was unable to do so. The Buddha predicted that Vassakaara, after he had > died, would be reborn as a monkey in a bamboo wood. Vassakaara had > thereupon banana trees planted as well as other things monkeys could eat. > Then his food would be all ready for him when he would be reborn as a > monkey in that bamboo wood. > > We should see the danger of the accumulation of akusala in the javana > viithi-cittas that arise and fall away in a succession of seven cittas. > Akusala is accumulated time and again so that it becomes one's nature and > appears in one's behaviour and speech and this accumulated behaviour is > called in Paali: "vaasanaa" 2. Even when one has become an arahat there > are inclinations accumulated in the citta that condition different kinds > of behaviour. The Buddha is the only person who could eradicate > "vaasanaa". All arahats have eradicated defilements completely so that not > even a germ is left of them, but nevertheless they are unable to eradicate > "vaasanaa". This is because they have accumulated "vaasanaa" for an > endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death through the power of > javana viithi-cittas. > >> > > I'll spare you my lousy puns and just pass on some definitions from > PaliWords: > vaasanaa: (f) former impression; recollection of the past > vaasana: (nt) perfuming; making to inhabit > vasana: (nt) dwelling; living; a cloth > > peace, > connie > #132169 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 10:10 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hello Anna, all > > > > Just dhammas performing functions. The stories have their pull, of course, and we can enjoy people and places when there are conditions for that kind of thinking of those kinds of concepts and when there are conditions for feeling lonely we can remember that there are only dhammas performing functions. Of coure we can remember tgat when we are feeling happy in our attachments as well. > > > A. I started thinking about whether it is more difficult (or less frequent) to remember that there are conditions for all kinds of thinking when we are feeling happy in our attachment than when we are mired in dosa. Quickly realized that this is useless line of thought - it will be whatever it is, due to conditions. No choosing, no directing - speculation useless. > Yes, but I think it is fair to note that there is often a kind of sobriety with resoect to the happinesses that we would be likely to be lost in if we hadn't come across Dhamma. We enjoy people and situatons, there is nothing in our behaviour that makes us look lik one of those "Buddhists" who intentionally try to act mindful, but often recalling that lobha eventually conditions dosa. I think a kind of habitual wariness gradually develops, don't you? But as you say, no control over that, so just speculating... Phil #132170 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Buddha didn't deny all kinds of "atta", much less the self. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Nina, all, > > >N: When people read this they think of a self who can train to do this. >It all depends on conditions, anattaa. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > The Buddha never ever denied the self. He didn't even deny certain kinds of atta, read attakari sutta . > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html > > The standard teaching on anatta (not, not, self) wouldn't even work with (wrong) Christian idea of a soul, much less against empiric self. Christian soul has date of origin, so it arises. It can experience dukkha so it is not just-sukha, and it doesn't have full, cartoonish sort of control like omniscient God. > > > With best wishes, > Alex > ============================== I've noted that sutta before. My opinion: One who believes in no-self in the technical, ultimate sense has right view, and one who does not has wrong view. However, one who (thinks s/he) believes in no-self in conventional terms is either kidding him/herself OR is a nihilist and thereby has wrong view in the worldly sense. In this sutta, I believe that the Buddha is cautioning one against misapplying the anatta notion to conventional (i.e., mundane) speech and thought. There are other suttas of this sort as well, an example of which is given at the end of this post. With metta, Howard Mundane Wrong View /And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view./ (From the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta) #132171 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > I'd like to just pick up on one point in your discussion with Sukin: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > >H: All jhaanas are kusala. All jhaanas are not akusala. Exception is abyaakata-jhaana of arahats. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>Sukin: If it is the one related to the development of samatha / jhana, > > what relationship does this have to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path? > .... > > Htoo: Sahajaata paccaya. Conascent condition. > ... > Sarah: If you are referring to samatha bhavana and mundane jhana, then these cittas have their specific objects and are not path factors, are they? Therefore, they cannot condition samma ditthi of the path or other path factors by sahajata paccaya as they do not arise together. > > If instead, you are referring to lokuttara jhana, the supramundane concentration that is equivalent in strength to mundane jhana at moments of enlightenment, then the object is nibbana and it arises as a result of the development of the path. > ... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>Sukin: If you are suggesting that a moment of deep samadhi achieved as a result of one kind of wisdom can lead to arising of the other kind of wisdom,please tell me by what paccaya this happens? If you say that this is due to the hindrances being suppressed at those moments, then the question is, by what condition does it remain suppressed in the following moment when the panna is of a different kind? > ... > >Htoo: Sahajaata > ... > Sarah: Again, you seem to be suggesting that mundane jhana (or prior samatha bhavana) conditions the path factors to arise by sahajata paccaya. Can you explain how this is possible when they do not arise at the same time or share the same object? > ... > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, Sorry for moving from one point to another. I meant 'the same power'. Jhaana does not have hinderance (Niivara.na). Magga does not have hindrance (niivara.na). I said sahajaata (conascent) at the time of arising of magga citta. A citta cannot attend two different objects. There are 89 cittas or 121 cittas. If we consider 121 cittas, there will be 20 magga cittas and 20 phala cittas. How can "sotaapatti-pathama-jhaana-magga-citta" attend both nibbaana and the object of 1st jhaana (pannati) at the same time. This is impossible. But this is that "enter 1st jhaana, exit it, and contemplate on naama-of-jhaana factors and attain nibbaana. These are yuganaddha dhamma in abhidhammaa (Dhammasa`nga.nii). They are samatha and vipassanaa. Buddha did not describe as "lokuttara jhaana". Mahaasii Sayadaw used this term. I understand what you meant for lokuttara jhaana. All lokuttaraa cittas are appanaa. They have appanaa samaadhi. This is the quality of samaadhi that exists in 1st 2nd 3rd 4th ruupa and 1st aruupa 2nd aruupa 3rd aruupa and 4th aruupa jhaana. As magga citta or phala citta that lokuttara citta is accompanied by appanaa-samaadhi, sammaa-di.t.thi, and all other sammaa including sammaa-vaacaa, sammaa-kammanta, and sammaa-aajiiva. For magga-appanaa or phala-appanaa the samaadhi has to be appanaa quality. Prepath is lokiya or mundane. But if prepath contain up to jhaana quality then it is appanaa-samaadhi or jhaana. I do accept understanding. Understanding must involve in all phases and all stages. I know. But without *doing* appanaa-samaadhi will not arise automatically. With respect, Htoo Naing #132172 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 10:28 pm Subject: Re: Buddha didn't deny all kinds of "atta", much less the self. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, all, > > > > >N: When people read this they think of a self who can train to do this. >It all depends on conditions, anattaa. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > The Buddha never ever denied the self. He didn't even deny certain kinds of atta, read attakari sutta . > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html > > > > The standard teaching on anatta (not, not, self) wouldn't even work with (wrong) Christian idea of a soul, much less against empiric self. Christian soul has date of origin, so it arises. It can experience dukkha so it is not just-sukha, and it doesn't have full, cartoonish sort of control like omniscient God. > > > > > > With best wishes, > > Alex > > > ============================== > I've noted that sutta before. My opinion: One who believes in no-self in the technical, ultimate sense has right view, and one who does not has wrong view. > However, one who (thinks s/he) believes in no-self in conventional terms is either kidding him/herself OR is a nihilist and thereby has wrong view in the worldly sense. In this sutta, I believe that the Buddha is cautioning one against misapplying the anatta notion to conventional (i.e., mundane) speech and thought. There are other suttas of this sort as well, an example of which is given at the end of this post. > > With metta, > Howard > > > Mundane Wrong View > > /And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view./ > > (From the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, Good job! With respect, Htoo Naing #132173 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 10:55 pm Subject: Re: Lodewijk's speech - anusayas htoonaing... Dear Friends, Thanks Phil for posting this. Thanks Connie for clarification on Paa.li words. The Buddha eradicated all defilements along with vaasanaa. All other arahats including right and left wings of the Buddha (Saariputta and Moggallaana). Saariputta would jump when he saw a small creek on his way. Moggallaana would shout at those who did not comply with rules. There is example. The Buddha is like emptying kilesa from a water bottle while all other arahats are like emptying kilesa from a bottle of alcohol. There is no more alcohol. But there still is smell. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Group > > Below, a very useful passage from SPD on accumulations. Understanding accumulations helps us to develop wisdom and equanimity with respect to conditioned patterns of behaviour, not the story of a person behaving badly, or well, just accumulations of cittas performing functions, in line with conditions. And moments of understanding accumulate too, as long as we are not greedy for progress, there is progress. But the greed for progress is deeply accumulated.... > > Anyways, enough of that. Please read the excellent passage from SPD. > > Phil > > > > > The javana viithi-cittas that are kusala and those which are kusala arise > > and fall away in succession and they accumulate kusala or akusala all the > > time. This conditions each person to have different inclinations, a > > different character and a different behaviour. The accumulations in the > > citta of each person are most intricate. Also the arahats, those who have > > reached perfection, have different inclinations, they excel in different > > qualities. Venerable Såriputta was preeminent in wisdom, venerable Mahaa > > Moggallaana in superpowers, venerable Mahaa Kassapa in the observance of > > ascetical practices, which he also encouraged others to observe, and > > venerable Anuruddha was preeminent in clairvoyance. The javana > > viithi-cittas of each one of us arrange themselves in their own series or > > continuity and accumulate different kinds of kusala and of akusala time > > and again, and this is the reason that, at the present time, we all think, > > speak and act in completely different ways. > > > > Cittas that are kusala, akusala and mahaa-kiriya which arrange themselves > > in a series of javana, cause people to have a different behaviour through > > body and speech. It could happen that people who saw an arahat had > > contempt for him because they judged him by his outward behaviour, which > > he had accumulated for an endlessly long time. The Brahman Vassakaara, the > > prime minister of Magadha, for example, made a serious mistake by > > misjudging an arahat from his outward behaviour. When he saw Mahaa > > Kacchana coming down from a mountain he said that Mahaa Kacchana behaved > > like a monkey. Vassakaara's haughtiness was conditioned by the > > accumulation of his javana viithi-cittas. The Buddha told him to ask Mahaa > > Kacchana forgiveness, but his accumulated conceit was the condition that > > he was unable to do so. The Buddha predicted that Vassakaara, after he had > > died, would be reborn as a monkey in a bamboo wood. Vassakaara had > > thereupon banana trees planted as well as other things monkeys could eat. > > Then his food would be all ready for him when he would be reborn as a > > monkey in that bamboo wood. > > > > We should see the danger of the accumulation of akusala in the javana > > viithi-cittas that arise and fall away in a succession of seven cittas. > > Akusala is accumulated time and again so that it becomes one's nature and > > appears in one's behaviour and speech and this accumulated behaviour is > > called in Paali: "vaasanaa" 2. Even when one has become an arahat there > > are inclinations accumulated in the citta that condition different kinds > > of behaviour. The Buddha is the only person who could eradicate > > "vaasanaa". All arahats have eradicated defilements completely so that not > > even a germ is left of them, but nevertheless they are unable to eradicate > > "vaasanaa". This is because they have accumulated "vaasanaa" for an > > endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death through the power of > > javana viithi-cittas. > > >> > > > > I'll spare you my lousy puns and just pass on some definitions from > > PaliWords: > > vaasanaa: (f) former impression; recollection of the past > > vaasana: (nt) perfuming; making to inhabit > > vasana: (nt) dwelling; living; a cloth > > > > peace, > > connie > > > #132174 From: Tam Bach Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anattaa. tambach Dear Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahaapanthaka taught a verse to Cuu.lapanthaka. Cuu.lapanthaka could not remember what he learned. He did not have understanding. Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. Tam B: This interpretation sounds to me the same to the belief in  fire worshiping, dogs ascetism and so forth... Metta Tam B With respect, Htoo Naing (PS: :-) Cuu.lapanthaka was *doing*. Understanding followed later. *Doing* came first, understanding followed.) #132175 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 11:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > Op 2 aug 2013, om 06:51 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > But, according to the SN suttas, the Buddha teaches that first he/she, at the present moment, sees the five aggregates (i.e., nama-rupa) as anicca (impermanent); > ----- > N: First? How come? He should first know precisely the characteristics of the dhammas that appear, before he can know them as impermanent, etc. Not possible if he is not sure what seeing is and what visible object is. Without developing insight he mixes them all, puts them together as a collection of things. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina and Thomas, Thanks Nina for your kind explanation to Thomas. When we first know 'the thing' we must clearly know what it is exactly in real sense. Without this further knowledge on the characters cannot be seen. If naama or ruupa is seen it is seeing of naama or ruupa. With time passes by the knowledge will be clear. The first wisdom is seeing the 'sabhaava lakkha.naa'. Not directly on anicca (hutvaa abhaavato anicca.m) or impermanence, or dukkha (pii.layati iti dukkha) or suffering, or anatta (na attaa anatta). After seeing sabhaava lakkha.na after some time sa`nkhata lakkha.na will be seen. After that the general characteristics of all sa`nkhata dhamma will be seen as anicca or dukkha or anatta. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132176 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 11:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: anattaa. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Mahaapanthaka taught a verse to Cuu.lapanthaka. Cuu.lapanthaka could not remember what he learned. He did not have understanding. > > Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him > *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". > > Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. > > Tam B: This interpretation sounds to me the same to the belief in  fire worshiping, dogs ascetism and so forth... > Metta > > Tam B > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tam B, Cuu.lapanthaka in his past lives met Bodhisatta many times. Once in a life, Bodhisatta was a wise man and Cuu.lapanthaka-to-be was a poor man. They both saw a dead mouse. Bodhisatta said " This dead mouse will make 100,000 money (that is can become rich). Cuu.lapanthaka-to-be followed what the wise man said. Finally this dead mouse made him rich. In his pacchima-bhava (last life in sa.msaraa) he met the Buddha and again followed what the Buddha instructed. Rubbing a white cloth is simple. And this may be seen as you thought like 'tantra mantra'. But the Buddha did know that inclination of Cuu.lapanthaka. Once in a life when worked in the paddy field and became sweaty. He wiped his sweat with a white cloth and it changed into dirty. He notice 'anicca' once. That is anicca-sanna. And in many lives Cuu.lapanthaka practiced 'Odaata Kasi.na' and got ruupa jhaanas. This makes his inclination to rapidly developing jhaana. The Buddha knew this inclination and that is why the Buddha gave hime 'white cloth'. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132177 From: Tam Bach Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anattaa. tambach Dear Htoo, > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Mahaapanthaka taught a verse to Cuu.lapanthaka. Cuu.lapanthaka could not remember what he learned. He did not have understanding. > > Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him > *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". > > Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. > > Tam B: This interpretation sounds to me the same to the belief in  fire worshiping, dogs ascetism and so forth... > Metta > ---------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tam B, Rubbing a white cloth is simple. And this may be seen as you thought like 'tantra mantra'. But the Buddha did know that inclination of Cuu.lapanthaka. Once in a life when worked in the paddy field and became sweaty. He wiped his sweat with a white cloth and it changed into dirty. He notice 'anicca' once. That is anicca-sanna. And in many lives Cuu.lapanthaka practiced 'Odaata Kasi.na' and got ruupa jhaanas. This makes his inclination to rapidly developing jhaana. The Buddha knew this inclination and that is why the Buddha gave hime 'white cloth'. ------------------------------ Tam B: My comment was not about the story itself, but about your comment on it, in reply to Sarah's post: "He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha." Now, you mentioned anicca-sanna, isn't it understanding? Actually, your explanation above is simply making Sarah's point. Metta, Tam B #132178 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 12:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patience, was:Off to Canada htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 2 aug 2013, om 01:02 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > As to sammassana ~naa.na until udayabhaya~naa.na, this seems only one step, but after sammassana ~naa.na there are the defilements of vipassanaa that have to be overcome and this may take a long time. There is clinging to insight, to the asurance one feels. Acharn said that fact that pa~n~naa can overcome these defilements shows how great pa~n~naa is. > > > > Does panna overcome these defilements itself through its own seeing? Are there specific cetasikas that arise to eradicate the defilements of panna? If you can say what they are, I would be very interested. > ------ > N: Pa~n~naa performs its function of understanding whatever reality arises, also akusala dhamma. It is assisted by the other sobhana cetasikas that accompany it, like sati, hiri, ottappa (shame and fear of blame), alobha, and many others. They are all part of sankhaarakkhandha (khandha of formations), and they work together. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina and Rob E, There is a dhamma called 'nandii-raaga', which is subtle and hard to see. That is clinging to insight. It is also upakkilesa (subtle-defilement). When "maggaamagga-~naa.nadassana-visuddhi" completes this can be overcome. Overcoming this is to direct to naama or ruupa while seeing anicca or dukkha or anatta. Otherwise one sways from the path and might follow upakkilesa (subtle defilements) namely obhaasa (glowing light from body and face), piiti (likeness), passaddhi (calmness-coolness), adhimokkha (not cetasika adhimokkha but 'saddhaa' or clear acceptance or confidence), viriya (strong effort, deligent effort), sukha (happiness), ~naa.na (quick effective wisdom), upa.t.thaana (sati or mindfulness), upekkhaa (good equanimity). These nine dhammas are not akusala but they push to wrong way and sway away from right path. The last dhamma in 10 upakkilesa is 'nikanti ta.nhaa'. This nikanti-ta.nhaa is also referred to as 'nandii-raaga' in "vammika sutta.m". With respect, Htoo Naing #132179 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 12:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: anattaa. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Mahaapanthaka taught a verse to Cuu.lapanthaka. Cuu.lapanthaka could not remember what he learned. He did not have understanding. > > > > Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him > > *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". > > > > Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. > > > > Tam B: This interpretation sounds to me the same to the belief in  fire worshiping, dogs ascetism and so forth... > > Metta > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tam B, > > Rubbing a white cloth is simple. And this may be seen as you thought like 'tantra mantra'. But the Buddha did know that inclination of Cuu.lapanthaka. Once in a life when worked in the paddy field and became sweaty. He wiped his sweat with a white cloth and it changed into dirty. He notice 'anicca' once. That is anicca-sanna. > > And in many lives Cuu.lapanthaka practiced 'Odaata Kasi.na' and got ruupa jhaanas. This makes his inclination to rapidly developing jhaana. The Buddha knew this inclination and that is why the Buddha gave hime 'white cloth'. > ------------------------------ > > Tam B: My comment was not about the story itself, but about your comment on it, in reply to Sarah's post: > "He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha." > > Now, you mentioned anicca-sanna, isn't it understanding? > > > Actually, your explanation above is simply making Sarah's point. > > Metta, > > Tam B ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tam B, I wrote 'anicca sanna' in his past life. In his present life he was drived out of Jetavana Monastry by his brother. He was crying (it is kilesa). And he was not taught anything except a verse, which he could not remember and not understand. I was not making Sara's point. I am not focusing on the story. His brother Mahaapanthaka was not just simple arahat. His brother was designated as etadagga in aruupa jhaana. I was not writing on accumulation of Cuu.lapanthaka (only the Buddha know accumulation). He was outwardly looked like a damp. So where was 'understanding'? Because of the Buddha (reminder) he did *doing*. While *doing* he cognise the change, which was connected with his past life inclination to anicca-sanna. Within a short period (a morning before main meal time) he became an arahat with expert in ruupa-jhaana. As 'understanding' was anatta it arised on its own when the conditions of remembrance of past life memory and odaata kasi.na or white kasina arised when he was *doing* as the Buddha instructed. Without *doing* the cloth would not change into dirty one and he would never notice 'change'. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132180 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 1:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Dear Sukin (Sarah and all), Sukin wrote:- Hi Sarah, Htoo, ... > >Htoo: Sahajaata ... >Sarah: Again, you seem to be suggesting that mundane jhana (or prior > samatha bhavana) conditions the path factors to arise by sahajata > paccaya. Can you explain how this is possible when they do not arise > at the same time or share the same object? -------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Thanks Sarah for your input. I somehow missed this part of Htoo's post in my reply. But I remember wondering at the time, what happened to Htoo the Abhidhamma expert?! ;-) Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: ;-) No. Not expert really. I am at primary level. There are many who are good at abhidhamma in Myanmar. They passed many examinations in abhidhamma. I do not enter any of dhamma examination because I am at primary level. Those who passed many exams do not talk much or do not write anything but they are happy with dhamma. Unlike them, I am a bit poking to snatch wisdom from you, Sarah, Nina, Rob E,Connie, and many others (Tep, Rob K, Rob M, Dieter,Jon, Howard, Amara, .....). I have replied this 'sahajaata' to Sarah separately. With respect, Htoo Naing #132181 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha didn't deny all kinds of "atta", much less the self. truth_aerator Dear Nina, Howard, all, >N: We have to consider the context. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly. Buddha was refuting a Hindu version of Atta, which might have nothing to do with what modern westerners believe in. We need to be clear about what the Buddha is refuting. For example: self that is impermanent, not always happy and without God-like-omniscient-powers was NEVER denied by the Buddha. The Buddha denied some mystical, frozen, always happy first principle that doesn't even fit modern Christian idea of a soul, much less an empiric person like John, Jack or Jane. >The element of endeavoring, etc. There are just elements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and it is a person who has it. Or even more precise, that version of atta that Buddha didn't refute does it. attakari. Even though a person is made of elements and elements are required for person to be - a person is higher order thing that can also control (to a degree) lower order things like elements. Example with which I disagree. For example when it is said that eye does not control rupa that flies into it. While that is true, the person as a whole can choose to look left or right and thus change the object that hits the eye. So just reducing into elements does nothing to refute higher order processes or control. It might not even help to understand if there are non-reducible properties. No offence, but I think that many "Buddhist" arguments are either totally false or too weak. It could be refuted by any decent student of philosophy so much so that it would be a minus for Buddhism. This is why I value practice above study. Even if it is "non-involvement with whatever occurs in daily life" sort of thing. With best wishes, Alex #132182 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 2:11 am Subject: Vipassanaa_030 (DT 917 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding siila-visuddhi the most important is to observe not to do bad things. Bhikkhu paatimokkha has 91805036000. This is for monks or bhikkhu. As soon as become a monk by sa.mgha-kamma done in siimaa (the building where sa.mgha work and jobs are done) the monk is said to be observing all these siila. There must be 10 kaaraka bhikkhuu(monks) to offer monkhood to a person. When a bhikkhu break one of 4 paaraajikas he is no more a bhikkhu even though he still wears a robe. If he does not disrobe he cannot proceed seven visuddhis. But if he disrobe and declares that he is no more a bhikkhu and deserts all sikkhaa (practice of siila) he become an ex-monk and he is a lay person. If he wants seven purifications he has to observe 5 precepts. 4 paaraajikas are 1. killing human beings including embryos. 2. stealing ungiven wealth of a quarter of unit (say 25 cents or 25 pennies) 3. having sex 4. telling lie on having jhaana or magga or phala Killing mosquitoes does not constitute paaraajika but he has to treat that as described in vinaya rules. Telling simple untruth can still be treated. Paarajeti means defeat, lose, fail. Paaraajiko means a monk who loses bhikkhu-hood. Next comes is sa.mghadisesa vinaya rules. It has to be seriously treated according to vinaya rules and this does not need to disrobe. But if untreated there cannot be siila-visuddhi. There are 13 sa.mghadisesa vinaya rules. All other rules if broken can be treated by declaration among bhikkhus. There are 7 groups of aapatti (breaking bhikkhus' rules). In Buddha's time there are much more lay people who attained sotapannaship than bhikkhus. But among arahats all most all are bhikkhus with a few exceptions in lay people side. Arahats who were lay people (non-bhikkhu) did parinibbaana soon (on the same day). Examples of non-bhikkhu arahats were the father of our Lord Buddha (Siddhattha Gotama) named "King Suddhodana", Minister Santati, Baahiya Daaruciriya (no time to search for his own robe and bowl). So for bhikkhus 4 paaraajika dhamma have to be avoided permanently and all other breakages have to be treated according to vinaya rules. If this is done his (monk) siila becomes siila-visuddhi. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-30 DT-917 #132183 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: Meditation & Sitting Practice of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, --- "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Thomas. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > I do not see any Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as saying that "in reality there are always only dhammas, the present-moment reality"? > > > > But I do see Pali suttas (particularly the SN suttas) record the Buddha as teaching that at the present moment one sees (passati) and knows (jaanaati) the bodily and mental phenomena `dhammas' (such as the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as `anicca, dukkha, anatta', as `the four truths', as `the middle way', and as `pa.ticca-samuppannaa dhammaa'. > .... > S: And in reality it is pa~n~naa, right understanding which sees or realises the truth about dhammas, not any person or being. > > "The past should neither be longed for nor dwelled in > and the future neither desired, searched nor urged; > what is past, not real anymore, is dead & gone, > and the future, not real now, have yet to come!" > Majjhima Nikaya III, 131 > > S: Only ever present dhammas arising and falling away. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > Thanks for your reply. Sincerely, Thomas #132184 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 11:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, Htoo, --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Thomas, > > Op 2 aug 2013, om 06:51 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > > > But, according to the SN suttas, the Buddha teaches that first he/she, at the present moment, sees the five aggregates (i.e., nama-rupa) as anicca (impermanent); > > ----- > > N: First? How come? He should first know precisely the characteristics of the dhammas that appear, before he can know them as impermanent, etc. Not possible if he is not sure what seeing is and what visible object is. Without developing insight he mixes them all, puts them together as a collection of things. > > Nina. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Htoo: > > Dear Nina and Thomas, > > Thanks Nina for your kind explanation to Thomas. > When we first know 'the thing' we must clearly know what it is exactly in real sense. Without this further knowledge on the characters cannot be seen. > > If naama or ruupa is seen it is seeing of naama or ruupa. With time passes by the knowledge will be clear. The first wisdom is seeing the 'sabhaava lakkha.naa'. Not directly on anicca (hutvaa abhaavato anicca.m) or impermanence, or dukkha (pii.layati iti dukkha) or suffering, or anatta (na attaa anatta). > > After seeing sabhaava lakkha.na after some time sa`nkhata lakkha.na will be seen. After that the general characteristics of all sa`nkhata dhamma will be seen as anicca or dukkha or anatta. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > Th: Thanks for your reply. It brought my attention to it. Yes, according to the SN suttas, one should first fully know the phenomena of the five aggregates (nama-rupa) themselves, and then fully see them as anicca, dukkha, or anatta. Sincerely, Thomas #132185 From: Tam Bach Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anattaa. tambach Dear Htoo, Htoo: As 'understanding' was anatta it arised on its own when the conditions of remembrance of past life memory and odaata kasi.na or white kasina arised when he was *doing* as the Buddha instructed. Without *doing* the cloth would not change into dirty one and he would never notice 'change'. ------------------------------- Tam B:  So, what is the clue here? The "doing" or the right conditions for his accumulated wisdom to reap? It is, as I understand it, what Sarah has been saying: only the Buddha was able to know what is the right reminder for a particular person. As this happened to him with rubbing white coth, a moment of realization could happen to anyone with sufficient accumulated wisdom while , say, washing dishes or swimming across a river. But no one  knows, except a Buddha, what is the action which will give rise to conditions for panna at that level to arise. But one thing is for sure: without the accumulated wisdom to that level, there would not be the conditions for realization to occur. And for wisdom to be accumulated, we've learnt that hearing the true Dhamma from a wise friend and wise consideration is essential.  Since today, there's no Buddha to give us the right reminder, all we can do is to keep studying the realities of this moment as taught by Him, it is not? But it is not "us", but conditioned dhammas like manasikara, vitaka etc are doing the job, and they don't arise at will at choosen place and time. I haven't seen anything in that example that supports "doing is the way to develop panna" as you seem to be professing. Metta, Tam B #132186 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anattaa. sukinderpal Hi Htoo, Sarah, Tam, > Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him > *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". > > Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have > understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. > You read this as a kind of "doing" with the intention to justify the "doing" of meditation. What about reading and listening to the Dhamma, are these not also "doings" then? If you want to read "doing" into an activity, then there is doing all the time, including when sleeping. But what is really being pointed at when some of us argue against "doings"? It is "wrong practice" conditioned by wrong view. If we were to read and listen to the Dhamma with the belief that the activity can cause understanding or any other reality for the matter, to arise, that would be an instance of wrong understanding leading to wrong practice. When Culapanthaka was given the white cloth to rub, he did it out of respect for the Buddha. He had no thought about doing it for the purpose of getting any kind of result. He had no idea about impermanence or anything! On the other hand, Buddhists today have ideas, many of them, but all conditioned by wrong understanding. Indeed it is because of this wrong understanding that they choose to "do" / "practice". So the two situations are totally different indeed. One more thing. I had said in another reply that I can identify with Culapanthaka. I know what it is like not to be able to remember anything read or heard. Not only that, in any particular discussion session, or when I was young in school, I pay attention only to a small percent of what is being said. I did however had the luxury of books to refer to, and there was also the pressure of examinations, whereas Culapanthaka did not, and therefore the situation with him was even more difficult. I could never remember formulas so with maths I often had to find my own roundabout way to work with problems. With physics which was my favorite subject, I was fortunate enough to read a book by a Russian scientist who encouraged observation and practical application. With biology, I depended on my ability to draw diagrams and label. I think all this is like me rubbing a white cloth, not done deliberately, but the way I end up "learning". Metta, Sukin #132187 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: >>Sukin: If it is the one related to the development of samatha / jhana, > > > what relationship does this have to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path? > > .... > > > Htoo: Sahajaata paccaya. Conascent condition. > > ... > > Sarah: If you are referring to samatha bhavana and mundane jhana, then these cittas have their specific objects and are not path factors, are they? Therefore, they cannot condition samma ditthi of the path or other path factors by sahajata paccaya as they do not arise together. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>Sukin: If you are suggesting that a moment of deep samadhi achieved as a result of one kind of wisdom can lead to arising of the other kind of wisdom,please tell me by what paccaya this happens? If you say that this is due to the hindrances being suppressed at those moments, then the question is, by what condition does it remain suppressed in the following moment when the panna is of a different kind? > > ... > > >Htoo: Sahajaata > > ... > > Sarah: Again, you seem to be suggesting that mundane jhana (or prior samatha bhavana) conditions the path factors to arise by sahajata paccaya. Can you explain how this is possible when they do not arise at the same time or share the same object? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Sarah, > > Sorry for moving from one point to another. I meant 'the same power'. Jhaana does not have hinderance (Niivara.na). Magga does not have hindrance (niivara.na). I said sahajaata (conascent) at the time of arising of magga citta. .... S: At the time of arising of magga citta, there is no mundane jhana citta. So when Sukin asked you how the wisdom of samatha bhavana/jhana relates to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path, it cannot possibly be by sahajata paccaya, can it? .... > A citta cannot attend two different objects. There are 89 cittas or 121 cittas. If we consider 121 cittas, there will be 20 magga cittas and 20 phala cittas. > > How can "sotaapatti-pathama-jhaana-magga-citta" attend both nibbaana and the object of 1st jhaana (pannati) at the same time. This is impossible. But this is that "enter 1st jhaana, exit it, and contemplate on naama-of-jhaana factors and attain nibbaana. These are yuganaddha dhamma in abhidhammaa (Dhammasa`nga.nii). They are samatha and vipassanaa. .... S: Any reality, including any jhana factor can be the object of insight by arammana paccaya. If jhana citta or jhana factor is the object of that insight immediately prior to enlightenment, it is said to be the 'basis' for enlightenment. As we know, this is one of the 'ways' in which enlightenment occurs as described in AN 4.170. Yuganaddhasutta.m. Let's also be clear that whenever any kind of kusala arises, the citta is calm. Samatha develops with vipassana too. Panna and samadhi condition each other and arise together in the development of satipatthana. At stages of vipassana nana, they are 'yoked' together (yuganaddha) because of the clarity at such times. The object is so clear at such times that the samadhi is apparent and the citta is very calm. ... > Buddha did not describe as "lokuttara jhaana". Mahaasii Sayadaw used this term. I understand what you meant for lokuttara jhaana. ... S: The texts refer to 2 kinds of jhana, arammanupanijhana and lakkhanupanijhana. The first is referring to mundane jhana and the second to the concentration at the moment of enlightenment which is equivalent in strength to apanna samadhi. This is what I was referring to with my 'shorthand'. ... >H: I do accept understanding. Understanding must involve in all phases and all stages. I know. But without *doing* appanaa-samaadhi will not arise automatically. ... S: Some of us are saying that by 'doing', there will be bhavana of any kind, no kusala of any kind - just a following of the wrong path, motivated by attachment. Metta Sarah ==== #132188 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Manly discussion sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: Yes, but when it does happen it is hard to take. Ann reminded me in Huahin that we all have different accumulations and react differently. The reminders Kh Sujin gave me at the ceremony in the temple for Ivan are most precious for me. And also on the boat at sea when we released his ashes. I listened many times to the recordings and I cannot express how these helped me to bear my loss. > ------ S: Yes, also what we may not find so helpful to hear one day maybe very helpful another time, depending on our understanding at the time. I just started editing the most recent discussions we had with Lan & Annie in KK. There was talk of unhappiness and difficulties and K.Sujin was stressing how "pa~n~naa never brings trouble. Life is easier than before (when there was no pa~n~naa)." She was saying that clinging will lead to disappointment because it's not the way we like it. We're always thinking of ourselves when actually there is no self. "Do you have friends?" she asked. "Only when thinking!" "Do you have enemies?" "Only when thinking!" "Seeing doesn't have any friends." It just performs the function of seeing. There's no 'me' there. This is the way (by understanding) to have less attachment which will bring less sorrow or disappointment. "The right words that can bring more understanding are the best friend. So spend more time with understanding, the best friend!" Metta Sarah ===== #132189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) nilovg Dear Htoo, Op 2 aug 2013, om 17:09 heeft htoonaing@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > Those who passed many exams do not talk much or do not write anything but they are happy with dhamma. Unlike them, I am a bit poking to snatch wisdom from you, Sarah, Nina, Rob E,Connie, and many others (Tep, Rob K, Rob M, Dieter,Jon, Howard, Amara, .....). ------ N: It is thanks to Acharn Sujin that we learn that the Abhidhamma is "not in the book." It pertains to the reality appearing right now. We begin (really begin) to understand this and this is a condition to read the whole of the Tipi.taka differently. We begin to see that all we read pertains to our daily life right now. Nina. #132190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha dhammas nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 3 aug 2013, om 03:49 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > Th: Thanks for your reply. It brought my attention to it. Yes, according to the SN suttas, one should first fully know the phenomena of the five aggregates (nama-rupa) themselves, and then fully see them as anicca, dukkha, or anatta. ------ N: That is right. Sati and pa~n~naa have to attend to their characteristics when they appear and this is, as Acharn Sujin says, beyond words. It is not thinking about them. But for all of us it takes quite some time before we really understand this. We are bound to take thinking for awareness. Above all, there is no person who is trying to know, sati and pa~n~naa perform their functions. They arise because of conditions and these are listening to the Dhamma and considering it. ----- Nina. #132191 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > When in first sermon of Theravadan monks called 'sa`ngaayanaa' > the leader Pippali Kassapa called out what to first revise. The group agreed to recite 'vinaya' first because 'vinaya' or 'rules for monks(and nums)' is the life of Buddha's Saasanaa. After vinaya the group went on to recite on dhamma. This dhamma was "what the Buddha taught in 45 years". It was systematically piled up into 4 nikaaya namely Diigha Nikaaya (Long Saying), Majjhima Nikaaya (Middle-length Saying), Samyutta Nikaaya(Sorted Saying), and A`nguttara Nikaaya(One-part exceeding Saying). .... S: Dhamma-Vinaya refers to the TI-Pitaka: >Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani), Introductory discourse (PTS transl): [referring to the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council]: "Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five hundred, the company of the self-controlled who recited under the presidency of Mahaakassapa did so after previous determination: '[This is the Doctrine, this is the Vinaya], these are the first words, these the middle words, these the later words of the Buddha; this is the Vinaya-Pitaka, this the Suttanta-Pitaka, this the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, this the Diigha Nikaaya.....Khuddaka Nikaaya; these the nine parts, to wit, the Suttas, etc.; these the eightly-four thousand units of text.' And not only this: the various literary expedients appearing in the three Pi.takas such as the lists of contents (uddaana), chapters (vagga), elisions (peyyaala), sections (nipaata) of single, double subjects, etc., groups (sa.myutta), fifties (pa~n~naasa) - all this having been arranged, was rehearsed in seven months." Metta Sarah ===== #132192 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 6:29 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: After vinaya the group went on to recite on dhamma. This dhamma was "what the Buddha taught in 45 years". It was systematically piled up into 4 nikaaya namely Diigha Nikaaya (Long Saying), Majjhima Nikaaya (Middle-length Saying), Samyutta Nikaaya(Sorted Saying), and A`nguttara Nikaaya(One-part exceeding Saying). .... S: It may be useful here to also requote the following from the Baahiranidaana (Buddhaghosa's intro to the Commentary to the Vinaya). It is from the section on The First Council, (Jayawickrama's transl). ========================================= Extracts from section 16 (p.14) onwards: ` The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment,twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first,intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the Angas(Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.' ...... `How is it twofold as the dhamma and the vinaya? All this, in its entirety, is reckoned as the Dhamma and the Vinaya. Herein the Basket of the Discipline is the Vinaya, the rest of the word of the Buddha is the Dhamma. Hence was it stated: "Let us, friends, rehearse the Dhamma and the Vinaya," and :I shall question Upali on the Vinaya and Ananda on the dhamma." Thus it is twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya.' . ..... A little later we read
..... With regard to the term, Abhidhamma, it says: `Since here are found conditions which possess growth and their own characteristics, are revered and differentiated and said to be excellent-on account of these it is called Abhidhamma.' . ..... A little later, there is a description of the 3 Pitakas, Vinaya, suttanta and Abhidhamma: `Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas,indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively; or they are the discourses necesitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in acordance with reality respectively; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form , respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested; the suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has beem preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of *ultimate truth* as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. `Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherin those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein bengs who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth.......' ... Metta Sarah === #132193 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 6:39 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Aananda wept when the Buddha was just going to pass away. The Buddha said "Aananda, do not weep/cry. I have preached 'dhamma and vinaya'. When your teacher (the Buddha) pass away, this 'dhamma and vinaya' will be your teacher. Here the Buddha definitely said 'dhamma and vinaya'. (Ref: Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m_mahaavagga_diighanikaaya) > > There is no mentioning on "Abhidhamma". The Buddha never preached "Abhidhamma" to human beings except Saariputta. So "Abhidhamma" was not in there 'dhamma & vinaya'. .... S: Commentary on the Four Great References, Mahaparinibbana Sutta (transl by Yang-Gu An, PTS). ***** "But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, ***sutta means the three baskets** which the three Councils recited. 'Accordance with sutta' means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate]. 'The word of the teacher' means the commentary. 'One's own opinion' means one's own illumination through grasping an analogy or one's consequent understanding. "Of these, sutta should not be rejected, for he who rejects that rejects the Buddha himself. If what is legitimate by being in accord agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. If the word of a teacher agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. One's own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not." ... Metta Sarah ===== #132194 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 7:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Op 2 aug 2013, om 17:09 heeft htoonaing@... het volgende geschreven: > > > Those who passed many exams do not talk much or do not write anything but they are happy with dhamma. Unlike them, I am a bit poking to snatch wisdom from you, Sarah, Nina, Rob E,Connie, and many others (Tep, Rob K, Rob M, Dieter,Jon, Howard, Amara, .....). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- N: It is thanks to Acharn Sujin that we learn that the Abhidhamma is "not in the book." It pertains to the reality appearing right now. We begin (really begin) to understand this and this is a condition to read the whole of the Tipi.taka differently. We begin to see that all we read pertains to our daily life right now. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, thanks for your post. I understand. I accept. With respect, Htoo Naing #132195 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 8:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Manly discussion philofillet Dear Sarah, Nina, group. > > I just started editing the most recent discussions we had with Lan & Annie in KK. There was talk of unhappiness and difficulties and K.Sujin was stressing how "pa~n~naa never brings trouble. Life is easier than before (when there was no pa~n~naa)." > > She was saying that clinging will lead to disappointment because it's not the way we like it. We're always thinking of ourselves when actually there is no self. "Do you have friends?" she asked. "Only when thinking!" > > "Do you have enemies?" "Only when thinking!" > > "Seeing doesn't have any friends." It just performs the function of seeing. There's no 'me' there. Ph: I found this very helpful. People are starting to arrive at the summer house, some relatives in particuar are difficult for me. There is tesentnent of the way people hold on to distorted perceptions of the past in ways tgat are very ncharitable and lead to defining others, clunging to those limiting, uncharitable definitions of people based on these distorted memories. Very frustrating, since the persons who are being efinrd are the most important peple in my life . (Naomi, and that most impirtant person, me.) But reading the above helps, seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, just dhammas rolling along. And the dhammas that are thinking obsessively about people and situations in a way tgat lead to getting upset, they will continue to arise and the dhammas that are the dosa of getting upset will continue to arise, that is accumulated to be, but more ad more monents of understanding. > So spend more time with understanding, the best friend!" > Indeed! Very grateful that there is wi-fi in the house now, will be able to listen to Ajahn. My brotger came yesterday, dificult, but tge kindness as wel, he bought a stone Uddha on the way down, looks nce in the garden, I did my breath yoga near it, interesting to observe the seated Zbuddha and understanding that tge meaning is bhavana, not "meditation." My sister comes with my mother's ashes to scatterin a couple of days and Naomi arrives in a week or so. The house will be packed beyond capacity with a lot of people who don't get along easily, understanding will be my best friend and the breath yoga will help to, I find it gives a kind of spacioysness about dealing with potentially stressfull situations. Phil #132196 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 9:39 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Dear Sarah, Thanks for your explanation. They are clear in my mind as you explained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, > Dear Sarah, > > Sorry for moving from one point to another. I meant 'the same power'. Jhaana does not have hinderance (Niivara.na). Magga does not have hindrance (niivara.na). I said sahajaata (conascent) at the time of arising of magga citta. .... S: At the time of arising of magga citta, there is no mundane jhana citta. So when Sukin asked you how the wisdom of samatha bhavana/jhana relates to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path, it cannot possibly be by sahajata paccaya, can it? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. No more mundane jhaana at that time. Not sahajaata. What I said is sammaa-samaadhi and sammaa-ditthi as sahajaata. Now I understand that what Sukin referred to and what I answered were different. What I have been insistedly saying as *doing* is developing samaadhi to yoke with panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > A citta cannot attend two different objects. There are 89 cittas or 121 cittas. If we consider 121 cittas, there will be 20 magga cittas and 20 phala cittas. > > How can "sotaapatti-pathama-jhaana-magga-citta" attend both nibbaana and the object of 1st jhaana (pannati) at the same time. This is impossible. But this is that "enter 1st jhaana, exit it, and contemplate on naama-of-jhaana factors and attain nibbaana. These are yuganaddha dhamma in abhidhammaa (Dhammasa`nga.nii). They are samatha and vipassanaa. .... S: Any reality, including any jhana factor can be the object of insight by arammana paccaya. If jhana citta or jhana factor is the object of that insight immediately prior to enlightenment, it is said to be the 'basis' for enlightenment. As we know, this is one of the 'ways' in which enlightenment occurs as described in AN 4.170. Yuganaddhasutta.m. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Even before enlightenment one who attains jhaana can do vipassanaa or satipatthana using jhaana as object. Sukkavipassaka can attain enlightenment but they hardly can enter phala-samaapatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Let's also be clear that whenever any kind of kusala arises, the citta is calm. Samatha develops with vipassana too. Panna and samadhi condition each other and arise together in the development of satipatthana. At stages of vipassana nana, they are 'yoked' together (yuganaddha) because of the clarity at such times. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You do accept 'clarity at such time'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: The object is so clear at such times that the samadhi is apparent and the citta is very calm. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Study bojjha`nga dhamma. Sati --> dhammavicaya (panna at dhammavicaya level) --> viriya --> piiti --> passaddhi --> samaadhi--> --> upekkhaa When dhammas are running before, mind is calmly, quietly, penetratively aware to all those forerunning dhammas. Note the different between two events here: 1. Driving a trollery on a rough countryside road while concentrating the fore view. 2. Driving a mordern automobile on smooth road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Buddha did not describe as "lokuttara jhaana". Mahaasii Sayadaw used this term. I understand what you meant for lokuttara jhaana. ... S: The texts refer to 2 kinds of jhana, arammanupanijhana and lakkhanupanijhana. The first is referring to mundane jhana and the second to the concentration at the moment of enlightenment which is equivalent in strength to apanna samadhi. This is what I was referring to with my 'shorthand'. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If so, I accept and you also have to accept that there is jhaana in samatha and there is jhaana in vipassana( so in magaa and phala). But mundane jhaanas outside of Buddha's teaching are not for enlightenment. Again even in Buddha's teaching if mundane jhaana (lokiya jhaana) is not for enlightenment they are va.t.ta-jhaana (that is it will go along sa.msaraa endlessly). Unlike mundane jhaana in isolation, jhaana of viva.t.ta (jhaana as a base or platform for enlightenment) is essential for enlightenment. If appanaa is possible and appanaa jhaana is attained this will help in phala-samaapatti. Otherwise ariyas who do not attain appanaa-jhaanas will not develop it again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >H: I do accept understanding. Understanding must involve in all phases and all stages. I know. But without *doing* appanaa-samaadhi will not arise automatically. ... S: Some of us are saying that by 'doing', there will be bhavana of any kind, no kusala of any kind - just a following of the wrong path, motivated by attachment. Metta Sarah ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If it is with lobha (chandaraaga) then it is akusala. But if it is with 'sati and chanda', the chanda is no more chandaraaga. So no akusala. Sati cannot arise with akusala cetasikas. If chanda is in dominent condition (adhipati paccaya) and sammaa-chanda that *doing* will not be akusala and the view will not be wrong view. If attain jhaana panna in that is jhaana-samaa-di.t.thi. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 3, 2013 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Manly discussion nilovg Dear Sarah, very helpful, I put it in my files. Op 3 aug 2013, om 10:16 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > S: Yes, also what we may not find so helpful to hear one day maybe very helpful another time, depending on our understanding at the time. > > I just started editing the most recent discussions we had with Lan & Annie in KK. There was talk of unhappiness and difficulties and K.Sujin was stressing how "pa~n~naa never brings trouble. Life is easier than before (when there was no pa~n~naa)." > -------- N: Yes, this is true, but it does not mean we do not have difficult times. ------- > > S: She was saying that clinging will lead to disappointment because it's not the way we like it. We're always thinking of ourselves when actually there is no self. "Do you have friends?" she asked. "Only when thinking!" > > "Do you have enemies?" "Only when thinking!" > > "Seeing doesn't have any friends." It just performs the function of seeing. There's no 'me' there. > ------- N: This brings us back to what is really true. --------- > > S:This is the way (by understanding) to have less attachment which will bring less sorrow or disappointment. "The right words that can bring more understanding are the best friend. > > So spend more time with understanding, the best friend." > --------- Nina. > > #132198 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 12:03 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... Sarah: Dear Htoo, > When in first sermon of Theravadan monks called 'sa`ngaayanaa' > > the leader Pippali Kassapa called out what to first revise. The group agreed to recite 'vinaya' first because 'vinaya' or 'rules for monks(and nums)' is the life of Buddha's Saasanaa. After vinaya the group went on to recite on dhamma. This dhamma was "what the Buddha taught in 45 years". It was systematically piled up into 4 nikaaya namely Diigha Nikaaya (Long Saying), Majjhima Nikaaya (Middle-length Saying), Samyutta Nikaaya(Sorted Saying), and A`nguttara Nikaaya(One-part exceeding Saying). .... S: Dhamma-Vinaya refers to the TI-Pitaka: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here no problem with 'agreement & disagreement'. All sutta.ms were confirmed by Aanandaa that he heard directly from the Buddha's mukha and all sutta.ms were approved by 500 arahats that they were genuine teaching of the Buddha. Quote: "Thus have I heard..." " Eva.m me suta.m ....". This is tagged in all sutta.ms. Nikaayas are four in number. Some northern Indian monks passed 4 nikaayas outside of Indiya. These 4 nikaayas are also present in Mahayana. As I do not read Mahayana I do not know the accuracy of these 4 nikaayas in their version. I think they were translated to Chinese and spread to East. Even in 6th Buddhists' Council there said 4 nikaayas. There is a sound records, CDs on Cha.t.thasa`ngaayanaa. Abhidhamma does not have approval. (?? Aananda was not preached). But there were duties to cite "dhamma kaaya". Examples are Vinaya citation (Upaali and his disciples),Diigha nikaaya (Aanadaa and his disciples), etc. A.t.thasaalinii is commentary. There are many abhidhamma-things in many of sutta.ms. I think no sutta.m is free of abhidhamma. The Buddha's word on His Dhamma can be seen in "Diigha nikaaya_Mahaa vagga_Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m". It is 'Dhamma & Vinaya'. But Buddha's disciples at 1st Council made 'Vinaya citation' first. I think many people talk on abhidhamma. But their abhidhamma come from "abhidhammatthasangaha and visuddhimagga". Both are atthakathaa (commentary). Regarding Nikaaya, vinaya, abhidhamma and other dhammas were put into Kuddakaa Nikaaya, the 5th Nikaaya. Mahaasatipatthaana sutta.m was originally only in Diigha Nikaaya. But it was also added in Majjhima Nikaaya. All words are the same and identical. Kathaavatthu, although it originally exists in abhidhamma text, was further explained by the leader of 3rd Buddhists' Council with agreement by 1000 monks. Pa.n.naasa means fifty. It is also pa~n~naasa (50).There are 34 sutta.ms in diigha nikaaya(siilakkhandavagga 13, mahaavagga 10, paatheyyavagga 11). Majjhima nikaaya have 152 sutta.ms (muulapannaasa 50, majjhimapannaasa 50 and uparipannaasa 52). Sa.myutta nikaaya have 5 texts, 56 vaggas, total 772 sutta.ms. A`nguttara nikaaya have 11 texts. Kuddaka nikaaya have 15 texts (kuddaka pa.tha, dhammapada, udaana, itivuttika, suttanipaata, vimaana vatthu, peta vatthu, theragaathaa, theriigaathaa, jaataka, niddesa, pa.tisambhidaamagga,apadaana, buddhava.msa, cariyaa pi.taka. Kuddaka means 'small' 'little'. Sutta.ms in kuddakaa nikaaya are short ones. Example: "Buddha.m sara.nam gacchaami, dhamma.m sara.na.m gacchaami, sa.mgha.m sara.nam gacchaami. Dutiyampi ... ., Tatiyampi ... ." When said "the Buddha's teachings are 5 nikaayas", vinaya and abhidhamma are there in kuddaka nikaaya. Those that moved outside of original place there were separate 'sa`ngaayanaa'. Some sutta.ms were removed. Some were displaced to from one nikaaya to another nikaaya. Some were news. But in Theravadan Tipi.taka there was little changes. Myanmar, Srilanka, Thai, Laos, and Kampucher (Kambodiya) the texts are almost the same with a few mis-spellings. Buddhism in Tibet, China, Mongolia, Korea, Japan etc is not like Theravada. Some have evening food. Some even married to women for the reason to maintain dhamma-seeds where offsprings have to be monks or nuns. In 'future texts' there will be monks wearing shirts & troussers with a piece of robe attached to overcoat. When discussed with a friend from Mogolia he said there are 225 vinaya rules in Mahayana. Theravada has 227 vinaya rules and in total there are more than 91805,000,000 rules. Abhidhamma was cited and handed down through the disciples of Upatissa Saariputta, the right wing of the Buddha. Aananda did not confirm that he heard abhidhamma(abhidhamma texts) from the Buddha. The Buddha did not preach Abhidhamma for third time. The first version or original version (the Buddha's words on abhidhamma texts) has never been in this world on this earth. The shortest version that was preached to Saariputta did not have record. The median version of abhidhamma as can be seen in today texts was "what Saariputta taught to his disciples 500, who were new comers new monks when the Buddha was in Taavati.msaa deva realm. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132199 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 12:36 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Htoo & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > After vinaya the group went on to recite on dhamma. This dhamma was "what the Buddha taught in 45 years". It was systematically piled up into 4 nikaaya namely Diigha Nikaaya (Long Saying), Majjhima Nikaaya (Middle-length Saying), Samyutta Nikaaya(Sorted Saying), and A`nguttara Nikaaya(One-part exceeding Saying). > .... > > S: It may be useful here to also requote the following from the Baahiranidaana (Buddhaghosa's intro to the Commentary to the Vinaya). > > It is from the section on The First Council, (Jayawickrama's transl). > ========================================= > > Extracts from section 16 (p.14) onwards: > > ` The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in > sentiment,twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the > first,intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), > fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the > Angas(Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the > Dhamma.' > ...... > > `How is it twofold as the dhamma and the vinaya? All this, in its > entirety, is reckoned as the Dhamma and the Vinaya. Herein the Basket of > the Discipline is the Vinaya, the rest of the word of the Buddha is the > Dhamma. Hence was it stated: "Let us, friends, rehearse the Dhamma and > the Vinaya," and :I shall question Upali on the Vinaya and Ananda on the > dhamma." Thus it is twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya.' . > ..... > > A little later we read
> `How is it threefold according to the Pitakas? Indeed, all this, in its > entirety, has the three divisions as the Vinaya-pitaka, the > suttantapitaka, and the Abhidhammapitaka. Therein, having brought > together all that has been both rehearsed and not at the First > convocation, both Patimokkha, the two Vibhanga, the 22 Khandhaka, and the > 16 Parivara, it is called the Vinayapitaka. > > `The collection of the 34 suttas beginning with Brahmajala called the > Dighanikaya, that of 152 suttas beginning with Mulapariyaya called the > Majjhimanikaya, that of 7,762 suttas beginning with Oghataranasutta called > the Samyuttanikaya, that of 9.557 suttas beginning with the > Cittapariyadanasutta, called the Anguttaranikaya, and the Khuddakanikaya > consisting of the 15 works: > Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, Udana, Itivuttaka, Suttanipata, Vimanavatthu, > Petavatthu, Thera and Therigatha, Jataka, Niddesa,Patisambhida,Apadana, > Buddhavamsa, and Cariyapitaka, are called Suttantapitaka. > > Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, dhatukatha, Puggalapannatti, Kathavattu, > Yamaka,and Patthana constitute the Abhidhammapitaka.' > ..... > > With regard to the term, Abhidhamma, it says: > > `Since here are found conditions which possess growth and their own > characteristics, are revered and differentiated and said to be > excellent-on account of these it is called Abhidhamma.' . > ..... > > A little later, there is a description of the 3 Pitakas, Vinaya, suttanta > and Abhidhamma: > > `Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three > Pitakas,indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the > authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth > respectively; or they are the discourses necesitated by transgressions, > those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in acordance with > reality respectively; or again, discourses on the various categories of > restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between > Name and Form , respectively. Herein, the > Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been > preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all > authority is vested; the suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings > as it has beem preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the > Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics; and the > Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of *ultimate truth* as it has been > preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is > adept in the absolute truths. > > `Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions > wherin those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in > accordance with the nature of their offences; the second, that adapted to > circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent > tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with > their adaptability; and the third, that set out in accordance with > reality wherein bengs who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only > in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the > absolute truth.......' > ... > > Metta > > Sarah > === ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, I accept personally. See in the post I sent today. Abhidhamma was not preach in jambhuudiipa (Indian Pennisula) on this earth. The Buddha preached abhidhamma to devas and brahmaas for three months non-stop. This is first version. The second version is just a summary of what he preached in deva realm and this was passed to Saariputta. But abhidhamma is there almost all sutta.ms. When the Buddha was dying Aanandaa was restless on near disappearance of The Teacher (Buddha). The Buddha said "Dhamma & Vinaya" will be your teacher. No mention of abhidhamma. I know in dhamma there also are abhidhamma. There are 84,ooo dhamma khandhaa. 21,000 suttanta-pi.taka, 21,000 vinaya pi.taka, and 42,000 abhidhammaa pi.taka. Therefore Emperor Ashoka or Aasoka did 'daana' 84,000 cetis, 84,000 monastries, 84,000 lakes, 84,000 and stone slabs 84,000 (inscription on stones). There are still some stones with inscription (that are part of these 84,000 stones). This is at 3rd Buddhists' Council. As calculation the Dhamma has 84,000. Among them 2,000 were teachings of great disciples but they all were confirmed by the Buddha even though words were of disciples. Examples: Rathaviniita sutta.m, Cuu.lavedalla sutta.m. This is history. But I accept what you said. When a.t.thakathaa explain what sutta.m say it is good. But we have to stick to original one. Finally, it is "the essence of teachings of the Buddha" that matters. Anuruddhaa well summarized abhidhamma and Buddhaghosa also wrote on visuddhimagga. They tried to express "the essence of the Buddha's teaching". There are new 'words' in these texts. Example: paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing