#132800 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 12:23 am Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] The trip to Kaeng Krachan kevinf596 Dear Nina, how are you feeling? Thank you, and yes I did hear about Ivan. Like Lodewijk, it is very sad that his time came so soon. Please do send it to me Nina, I would love to read it. Thank you, Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Kevin, Op 31 aug 2013, om 11:30 heeft < kevinf596@... > < kevinf596@... > het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, I am so sorry to hear > about Ludwig, and also very sorry to hear about your hip. You are 100% > right: conditions rule. I could not have said it better. We never know > what will arise next. > -------- N: Thank you for your sympathy. You may not know that Ivan also passed away. It happened when I had just arrived in Thailand, in January. I could attend the ceremony in the temple and at sea in Huahin and this meant a lot to me. Kh Sujin repeated so many times: what has fallen away never, never comes back. At first it was so hard to hear this. And recently I heard: She stressed many times that we are living in a dream, when thinking of persons and things. I posted here what I wrote about last trip as a memorial to Lodewijk. If you like I can send it to you. Nina. > > #132801 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 12:28 am Subject: RE: Re: Voting kevinf596 Thanks Sarah, I voted for that one as well... I am confident that things will all return back to normal, but it is important that we vote to make sure (by conditions). All the best, I hope you are enjoying Vietnam! I know it is hard to write, you must be on a busy schedule... Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear All, I've just voted 3x from both my yahoo accounts and the mods account, Jon's finishing his and we ask others of you to do the same. Pt's links didn't come out as links, so I'll post them again with a new one at the top which I'd like everyone, even those who've already voted to vote for. One of Pt's has already been agreed to, so I've deleted it. Here's the list, pretty well in order of priority for voting. You can just put in one link at a time, vote 3 times with email add and any first name. Very easy. Topics http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4373994-reply-in-\ context http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4368815-when-view\ ing-a-topic-i-want-to-sort-it-by-most-rec http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4364879-add-an-ex\ pand-all-button-to-message-threads-so-w http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362786-stop-kill\ ing-line-and-paragraph-breaks To see more options, here is the homepage: Feedback page http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > Thank you Pt! I encourage everyone to vote. It is important expecially that we can a) expand messages (especially for backing them up), and have paragraph breaks, indentations, and so forth (why in the world that disappeared I don't know), as Sarah has stated. I voted for all of the proposals on the list 3x except for the last one and I still have many votes left, so don't be scared to choose vote x3 on each one (the option is given to use 1, 2, or 3, of your votes on each proposal). The important ones on the list have very few votes so please take the time to vote. Also, when voting, your e-mail address and name (just first name) only have to be entered one time. Have a wonderful day! #132802 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 12:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Howard, > Op 28 aug 2013, om 17:13 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > I find the sutta material quite clear on its own, without the commentary, which to me adds stuff not stated or implied in the sutta. Insubstantial, Nina, means "fully void of substance." So the sutta is clear to me on its own. Substance is essential nature/essence. What lacks substance is mere appearance. > ------- > N: Substance is essence (sara), yes, I agree. But what appears for a moment is still real. ----------------------------------- HCW: I think that depends a lot on how strong a word 'real' is. I DO agree it is an *absurd* form of nihilism to think that dhammas do not arise at all and never exist at all. I agree that what appears for any time at all DOES indeed exist at that time - at least as appearance. But not as a *thing of its own* do I believe it exists. For me, I take 'real' to mean that which exists ON ITS OWN, independent of *anything* else and not just as passing appearance, but as a reality entirely of its own. I don't believe anything other than nibbana satisfies that, and I believe the Buddha asserts that only nibbana is "real" in that sense when he teaches in the Dvayupassana Sutta "See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true." -------------------------------- I am pondering over the 40 bhaavanas given by Htoo and Han. Although it is stated in the English translation: no reality ( as quoted by Thomas), we have to read the other ones, they are not in contradiction with each other. > > For example: 10)."Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa pabha`nguno." > > These 5 khandhaas are quiveringly-broken into non-existence from existence. > ------ > N: They are not there, then because of conditions they are there for a very short moment, and then they are no more. > > 40). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa su~n~naa." > > These 5 khandhaas are void-of-essence. > N: No essence: no core, no self. > If conditioned realities do not exist, how could they be realized as they are? No way to ever reach the other shore, nibbaana. ------------------------------ HCW: Yes, they do arise, but not as separate entities with own being, not as "realities". I believe it is their emptiness of self/own-being, their very lack of reality, that needs to be grasped to reach the other shore. ------------------------------- > Very wise people may not need commentaries, but the teachings are subtle and deep. When I read commentary after the sutta reading, it strikes me that the co mentions what I had not noticed before. > > ------- > Nina. ============================= With metta & appreciation, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #132803 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 12:33 am Subject: Re: Voting sarahprocter... Dear Friends, In addition, pls click on the first 3 suggestions under Searches: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/category/67139-search-experie\ nce At the moment under the new format it's impossible to search for a term or phrase in past posts, only for a post # Many of us use the search function a lot! <. . .> #132804 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 7:23 am Subject: RE: Re: Voting kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thanks for the voting suggestions, I have followed them except for the 'reply in context' one. If you click on the three dots in the reply box the message to which you are replying appears as it did before - in the good old days! (Although it doesn't put ">" at the beginning of each line.) I notice other members have been able to post messages with line and paragraph breaks intact, whereas my messages have appeared in a continuous stream. So this is a test to see if that has been fixed. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear All, KH: snip #132805 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 9:48 am Subject: Re: Voting sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, No, your message is a mess when I look at it in either the new or the old format (I still have access to both). So, go vote.... Meanwhile keep up the posting, mess or otherwise! Sarah p.s just getting ready for another action-packed day! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Thanks for the voting suggestions, I have followed them except for the 'reply in context' one. If you click on the three dots in the reply box the message to which you are replying appears as it did before - in the good old days! (Although it doesn't put ">... #132806 From: Jagkrit Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 10:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] E-notes from Saigon 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah and friends I still have difficulty using DSG page. I instead use e-mail to write some discussion in Saigon for some useful reminders. If the word "dhamma" is not related to reality at this moment, it is useless. Question: What was born? What died? Answer: Dhamma, the reality arises and falls away all the time. What is the purpose of studying the teaching of The Lord Buddha? Just to understand because no one understand this before. Dithi can not understand dithi and Lobha can not understand Lobha. Only panna can understand. Function of panna is to detach. Function of Lobha is to attach. Who can practice (pati pati) without understanding now? Attachment derives from ignorance. Because of no understanding realities, there is attachment. How can kilesas be reduced if there is no understanding. What is impermanent right now? Not just saying that "nothing is permanent". Everything which appears can be object of understanding. Where is dukkha? Do we have to go somewhere? when is dukkha? Right now. What is more important than understanding realities right now? What is going to happen next moment, no one knows. Trying to understand dhamma without understanding realities will not bring any of dhamma understanding at all. The path to nirvana is detachment all along the way. Sati arises and falls away. Why want to have sati? When there is more understanding, sati will definitely arises. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad <. . .> #132807 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 1:41 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] E-notes from Saigon 2 kevinf596 Great notes Jagkrit! "Question: What was born? What died? Answer: Dhamma, the reality arises and falls away all the time. What is the purpose of studying the teaching of The Lord Buddha? Just to understand because no one understand this before. Dithi can not understand dithi and Lobha can not understand Lobha. Only panna can understand. Function of panna is to detach. Function of Lobha is to attach. Who can practice (pati pati) without understanding now? Attachment derives from ignorance. Because of no understanding realities, there is attachment. How can kilesas be reduced if there is no understanding. What is impermanent right now? Not just saying that "nothing is permanent". Everything which appears can be object of understanding. Where is dukkha? Do we have to go somewhere? when is dukkha? Right now. What is more important than understanding realities right now? What is going to happen next moment, no one knows. Trying to understand dhamma without understanding realities will not bring any of dhamma understanding at all. The path to nirvana is detachment all along the way. Sati arises and falls away. Why want to have sati? When there is more understanding, sati will definitely arises. Anumodhana Jagkrit" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Sarah and friends I still have difficulty using DSG page. I instead use e-mail to write some discussion in Saigon for some useful reminders. If the word "dhamma" is not related to reality at this moment, it is useless. Question: What was born? What died? Answer: Dhamma, the reality arises and falls away all the time. What is the purpose of studying the teaching of The Lord Buddha? Just to understand because no one understand this before. Dithi can not understand dithi and Lobha can not understand Lobha. Only panna can understand. Function of panna is to detach. Function of Lobha is to attach. Who can practice (pati pati) without understanding now? Attachment derives from ignorance. Because of no understanding realities, there is attachment. How can kilesas be reduced if there is no understanding. What is impermanent right now? Not just saying that "nothing is permanent". Everything which appears can be object of understanding. Where is dukkha? Do we have to go somewhere? when is dukkha? Right now. What is more important than understanding realities right now? What is going to happen next moment, no one knows. Trying to understand dhamma without understanding realities will not bring any of dhamma understanding at all. The path to nirvana is detachment all along the way. Sati arises and falls away. Why want to have sati? When there is more understanding, sati will definitely arises. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Sep 1, 2013, at 21:19, Sarah Abbott < sarahprocterabbott@... > wrote: <. . .> #132808 From: Jagkrit Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] E-notes from Saigon 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Kevin Thanks, Kevin. Acharn Sujin's reminders never keep us away from understanding realities at all. And that's the most important in samsara. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPhone <. . .> #132809 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 4:03 pm Subject: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ---- <. . .> > T: Do you mean you have no choice? ----- KH: Thanks for reading my post despite the formatting mess. Your question was rhetorical, of course, but I will answer it anyway. No, I do not mean I have no choice; I am referring to you and Howard, and all the others who believe there are no ultimate realities. Your interpretations of the suttas are unsustainable, and so you refuse to discuss them. You say the khandhas exist but they are not real. Howard says they have no own being. That doesn’t make sense! ------------------- > T: It seems to me you are unable to made perfectly clear according to the suttas, which do not even have the term, paramattha. ----------------- KH: What else could namas and rupas be if not absolute realities? Why would the Buddha describe them and their characteristics if they were not real and did not have characteristics? Ken H (Sending this post from Firefox to see if it has more luck than Chrome.) #132810 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting nilovg Dear Sarah, I do not know how to fill in the vote. 3 times? What is terms of service? Of course search is very important, I use it a lot. Nina. Op 1 sep 2013, om 16:33 heeft sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > In addition, pls click on the first 3 suggestions under Searches: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #132811 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 4:50 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] E-notes from Saigon 2 kevinf596 Dear Jagkrit, Yes! We need those reminders again and again, they are so very important, because our ignorance level is high. Thank you. P.S. Sorry all for long times in between replies, cannot access internet from phone. Anumodhana, Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Kevin Thanks, Kevin. Acharn Sujin's reminders never keep us away from understanding realities at all. And that's the most important in samsara. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPhone < . . .> > #132812 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 5:00 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting kevinf596 Hi Nina, You wrote: "I do not know how to fill in the vote. 3 times? What is terms of service? Of course search is very important, I use it a lot. " Kevin: Nina, when you click on the links provided to the voting pages, you will see a gray color button on the left-hand side of the page that is labeled, 'vote' (when you scroll over it it will turn blue), above that the number of votes you have left will be displayed. When you click on the gray button, it will prompt you to enter your e-mail and name, and will give you the option to vote 1, 2, or 3 times. Simply fill it in, and click to vote. Feel free to write here or message me off-list if you have any more problems. All the best, Kevin #132813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. nilovg Hi Howard, The debates about own being, without own being, and about what reality is, are mostly a matter of language. You write: . I understand what you mean. When we talk about dhammas, realities, like seeing, visible object, we refer to realities that are conditioned by other factors, not realities that are independent and exist on their own. We refer to fleeting dhammas each with their own characteristic that can be object of sati and pa~n~naa, one at a time. Just as it is described in the satipa.t.thaana sutta. Indeed they have to be known as just dhammas, and this means, without self, non-self, beyond control. But I would not say: lack of reality, because this could lead to misunderstandings. One may think that there is no seeing, no visible object, no sound, no hearing. They appear, just for a moment, and when there are conditions for sati and pa~n~naa, their characteristics can be gradually penetrated. Seeing is a dhamma that experiences something, and visible object is a dhamma that does not know anything. This is the first step. If there are no seeing and visible object it would seem that nothing can be known. Nina. Op 1 sep 2013, om 16:31 heeft Upasaka@aol.com het volgende geschreven: > HCW: Yes, they do arise, but not as separate entities with own being, not as "realities". I believe it is their emptiness of self/own-being, their very lack of reality, that needs to be grasped to reach the other shore. #132814 From: Pt Gr Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 5:31 pm Subject: Neo ptaus1 Hi KenH, Sarah, Nina, all, About some of the technical issues you raised: Sarah and Nina - the Search is working, but it is in a different spot than before - it's basically the text box on the left of the purple button on top that says "Search Groups". In the past, this was where you would search for different groups - now however that is where you search for messages with keywords - e.g. if I type in that search text-box "voting pt sarah", it will give me a list of all our recent messages on voting. KenH - line (paragraph) spaces - these are not fixed yet, so everything you type will appear on one continuous line when replying on dsg, there will be no paragraph spaces, etc. If you want paragraph spaces, you can post from your email - then paragraph lines will appear - that's what I'm doing now, so hopefully everything will be nice and neat. To post from your email to the group, you need to put dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com in the "To:" box (so, that's the dsg email address). Another thing that can be tested is if Neo will accept HTML (so maybe typing things like

and
). Links - these come trough or not depending where you type them and where you view them - e.g. if you type them in a reply on Neo, it will be visible in Neo, but probably not in Classic. Best wishes pt #132815 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 6:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting nilovg Dear Sarah (and Kevin) I am hopeless when it comes to actions on internet, cannot spend all that time. Now, I am used to individual messages, and when trying to read on the internet mailing list, I cannot read anything at all, just advertisements and pictures in Dutch. I cannot click anything at all. Just giving up. Nina. Op 1 sep 2013, om 16:33 heeft sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > In addition, pls click on the first 3 suggestions under Searches: #132816 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 8:10 pm Subject: RE: Voting philofillet Dear group Just checking the website version, after the dreadful mobile mess, this is not so bad. I have voted, and we'll see what happens, but I suspect we'll have to get used to this version. But we'll see.... Maybe Jon can sue their asses. Oops, I meant maybe Jon can sue for their assets. phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Sarah (and Kevin) I am hopeless when it comes to actions on internet, cannot spend all that time. Now, I am used to individual messages, and when trying to read on the internet mailing list, I cannot read anything at all, just advertisements and pictures in Dutch. I cannot click anything at all. Just giving up. Nina. Op 1 sep 2013, om 16:33 heeft sarahprocterabbott@... het volgende geschreven: > In addition, pls click on the first 3 suggestions under Searches: #132817 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 10:00 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting buddhatrue Hi Nina, You know, at your age and circumstance I am just amazed that you are on the Internet at all!!! You are amazing!! You know, that is really amazing and really an inspiration to me. I am starting to get up there in years, 44 now (god, what a burden! when will I die already?? LOL!) I am just amazed at your technological savvy!! (and that means something because I teach computer technology). Don't give up because I am not going to give up. This new "Neo" format is a bunch of BS. They are trying to emphasize the paid ads on the page above anything else. But if they do that for too long they will kill themselves. I am also worried about the future of DSG so I am trying to figure out what to do. Don't give up hope and keep posting even if you think no one might read it :-). I will always read your sweet and considerate posts. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Sarah (and Kevin) I am hopeless when it comes to actions on internet, cannot spend all that time. Now, I am used to individual messages, and when trying to read on the internet mailing list, I cannot read anything at all, just advertisements and pictures in Dutch. I cannot click anything at all. Just giving up. Nina. Op 1 sep 2013, om 16:33 heeft sarahprocterabbott@... het volgende geschreven: > In addition, pls click on the first 3 suggestions under Searches: #132818 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 10:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Voting sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Our notes were for others who find the technical things easier. I find it all difficult as well. Please don't concern yourself with voting etc, but leave it to others. There are some adjustments for us and you may find that nothing works at all for a couple of days. We all need to be patient with it all. I'm sure Pt will also give you extra help during the transition. Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I do not know how to fill in the vote. 3 times? #132819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting nilovg Dear James, thanks for your kind encouragement. Nina. Op 2 sep 2013, om 14:00 heeft het volgende geschreven: > I will always read your sweet and considerate posts. #132820 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 10:57 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Voting buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Nina), I am going to reply to post in-text even though that may seem hard to do. But I don't care about that at all. I only care about how your treat our respected elders... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Nina, Our notes were for others who find the technical things easier. I find it all difficult as well. Please don't concern yourself with voting etc, but leave it to others. James: That is not the way to talk to Nina. She is the senior elder member of this group and it is not for you to give her instructions about what to do or what to expect. I know you want to help her but you shouldn't go too far, There are some adjustments for us and you may find that nothing works at all for a couple of days. We all need to be patient with it all. I'm sure Pt will also give you extra help during the transition. James: No, no, and NO! Nina and her husband were the elders of this group and they have instituted power you may not understand. You shouldn't talk to her like she might not understand and she couldn't possibly understand what to do. Elders always know the best action to take in sticky situations. Sarah Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I do not know how to fill in the vote. 3 times? #132821 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 12:36 am Subject: e-notes from Saigon 3 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Friends, Another day of excellent discussions - large numbers of Vietnamese attending each session, so it's all on quite a large scale in the very large coffee lounge with an extra session in our hotel lobby with the two bhikkhus again. Ajahn Sujin, Most the Thais go on trips and have more leisurely meals, whilst Ajahn, Jon, I and those who attend all the sessions have a busy schedule and a "speed lunch" today to be ready in time for the session with the bhikkhus. Qus about sila and samadhi before understanding, on what can be done: - "I can do" - no understanding of anatta. A.Sujin asked me to explain in detail about asavas, oghas and yogas - fortunate we'd discussed these a lot in KK! Lots of discussion this morning about sila - kusala sila, akusala sila and avyakatha sila. Even though many of the Vietnamese have read and heard a lot and are familiar with Pali terms, so much is new. Qus about 'how to practice?' - Begin now from moment to moment to understand realities. Seeing....thinking....not self. Careful study is very important otherwise we all just have our own ideass. Whenever there is no understanding, avijja now. Discussion about the meaning of study and how we have to hear the Teachings many times, wider and deeper and carefully consider each word. One of the bhikkhus asked an interesting qu. He asked if all dhammas are anatta, why do monks need to confess about transgressions. A.Sujin's answer was along these lines: All people have kilesa (defilements) including monks. After listening to the Teachings, one knows one's accumulations to live and develop panna a a bhikkhu or a lay person. Since one decided to be a bhikkhu, one must know the difference between being a bhikkhu and a lay-person. I In the beginning, there were no rules for the bhikkhus, but whenever any monk behaved not according to monkhood, the Buddha lay down a rule and asked the opinion of all monks as to whether it was beneficial. So the rules were agreed by all monks at the time so that anyone who'd like to be a monk should know the rules and see if they can follow. That's why monks know by themselves what has been done against these rules. The Buddha was very compassionate. He knew everyone has akusala, so there were many diferent degrees of penalty, so the bhikkhus could ask forgiveness sincerely and not repeat the offences. So the monks' life, properly led, is so pure, worthy of being respected. If any monk does not follow the rules, it was said that he is 'not suitable to be called a monk'. Such a one is said to be like a thief because he robs lay-people of food and things. So the rules and confessions are for the monk to be aware of being a monk. A.Sujin also talked about the other meaning of bhikkhus as taught by the Buddha - anyone who sees the danger of seeing, hearing and other conditioned dhammas in one's life. Qu about when there is intention to check whether awareness or seeing is present, is there any awareness. Ans: When there is no understanding, no awareness. Qu and discussion about 'intention to do. Ans: Intention is not an 8FP factor - "I" again, no understanding of reality, not self. Lots of discussion on khandhas this afternoon, also qu on hunger, qus from the monks on meditation, Ajahn's practice (!), painful feeling - always back to this moment and realities now. Late and tired again..... so glad to have wifi in the room. Nina, thought of you when Jon and I popped out for a simple bowl of delicious Vietnamese noodles rather than going for a meal with the Thai group! You'd stay with us, I'm sure. Ajahn Sujin has asked after your condition and is so very happy that you're coming to Thailand in Jan. She'd like you to know that everyone thinks about you and has been so very concerned even though they don't contact you. Metta Sarah ======== #132822 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 1:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > The debates about own being, without own being, and about what reality is, are mostly a matter of language. ---------------------------------- HCW: Thank you, Nina! Yes, to some extent it may well be a matter of language! (But some extent to which it may NOT be so is the matter of my taking dhammas to be only elements of experience, for which I believe there is good sutta evidence.) That aside, though, what I am most uncomfortable with is the *emphasis* placed here (by many) on dhammas being referred to as separate "realities" as opposed to an emphasis on their being willow-the-wisps that are ungraspable and empty of self. We should zero in on going beyond what is conditioned and ephemeral to what is truly real, unconditioned, and with independent own being, namely nibbana. -------------------------------- You write: . I understand what you mean. > When we talk about dhammas, realities, like seeing, visible object, we refer to realities that are conditioned by other factors, not realities that are independent and exist on their own. We refer to fleeting dhammas each with their own characteristic that can be object of sati and pa~n~naa, one at a time. Just as it is described in the satipa.t.thaana sutta. -------------------------------- HCW: I don't think that such flashings in the void should be continually honored with the title "realities". They are fleeting phenomena to be seen through as empty and, *as the Buddha himself says*, "unreal". Are they nothing at all? No, I do not say that. That would be nihilism. But we need to adhere to the middle-way of thinking and speaking, avoiding substantialist terminology. ------------------------------ > Indeed they have to be known as just dhammas, and this means, without self, non-self, beyond control. But I would not say: lack of reality, because this could lead to misunderstandings. One may think that there is no seeing, no visible object, no sound, no hearing. -------------------------------- HCW: No, there certainly ARE these. But they are mere passing activities. They are experiencings - experiencing a dreamscape we take for real. That is the emphasis we should make, as in the Dvayatanpassanu Sutta. ------------------------------ They appear, just for a moment, and when there are conditions for sati and pa~n~naa, their characteristics can be gradually penetrated. > Seeing is a dhamma that experiences something, and visible object is a dhamma that does not know anything. This is the first step. If there are no seeing and visible object it would seem that nothing can be known. > Nina. > Op 1 sep 2013, om 16:31 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > HCW: Yes, they do arise, but not as separate entities with own being, not as "realities". I believe it is their emptiness of self/own-being, their very lack of reality, that needs to be grasped to reach the other shore. ================================ With metta, Howard /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #132823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting nilovg Dear James and Sarah, James, you really made me laugh. I took the matter quite differently from what you thought. Nina. Op 2 sep 2013, om 14:57 heeft het volgende geschreven: > James: That is not the way to talk to Nina. She is the senior elder member of this group and it is not for you to give her instructions about what to do or what to expect. I know you want to help her but you shouldn't go too far, #132824 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for the interesting note. Op 2 sep 2013, om 16:36 heeft Sarah Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Nina, thought of you when Jon and I popped out for a simple bowl of delicious Vietnamese noodles rather than going for a meal with the Thai group! You'd stay with us, I'm sure. Ajahn Sujin has asked after your condition and is so very happy that you're coming to Thailand in Jan. She'd like you to know that everyone thinks about you and has been so very concerned even though they don't contact you. ------ N: I would sign for the noodles. How kind she asked after my condition. I still have a long way to go. I am a bit anxious about steps, staircases etc. like you had already these days. But there are enough kind people around to help. The luggage, the airport etc. How and when to book, when will you be in the Peninsula? Nina. #132825 From: Jagkrit Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 jagkrit2012 Dear friends Adding to Sarah's some reminders from Saigon discussion day 3. Understanding dhamma cannot be sudden. It takes time. Comparing to studying foreign language, one has to study one word at a time and needs time to remember and understand. But understanding dhamma is much more difficult because we has been with ignorance for long long time. The word "anatta" is difficult for us to understand because we have wrong view of atta from life after life. How can we understand anatta in short time?. The Lord Buddha said that everything is anatta but we are against his teaching by thinking that "I can do". Do we notice that we understand dhamma very little and in very short time during listening to dhamma? After that we spend our daily life full of kilesas. How understanding can be developed more and more until deeply rooted? Speaking a lot of words in Tipitaka without real understanding, one will actually achieve nothing. Anatta shall be heard and considered so many times until it is firmly understood. Right understanding is never wrong but practicing without right understanding is inevitably wrong. The Lord Buddha not only taught right 8 Fold Paths but also wrong 8 Fold Paths. With wrong understanding, it's always wrong 8 Fold Paths. Right understanding is the way to detach wrong understanding. While sila arises, one must understand that sila is anatta, not anyone's sila with self. Even though we've heard about avijja and Paticca-samuppada, but if we don't have any understanding, we will never know that it's all about now. One never eradicate unwholesomeness unless understanding what is it. If The Lord Buddha taught us to practice, no need for him to teach for 45 years. If The Lord Buddha were here, what would we do? This moment is a moment of samsara. If there is no this moment, there is no samsara. When right understanding arises, there is no one. We don't have to look for dhamma because dhammas always arise and fall away. Just understanding them. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad <. . .> #132826 From: philip Coristine Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 4:01 am Subject: RE: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 philofillet Dear group >> "I can do" - no understanding of anatta. Going too far? There can be understanding that there is no "I", just dhammas performing functions but we say "I can." It depends on whether there ate dhammas that are motivated to study the true Dhamma. If people do not have such conditions ( "people have conditions", more conventional speech) there will not be understanding of anatta. E.g someone says "I can choose what to look at" , no understanding of anatta. But "I can understand Japanese", there coud be understanding that it is just dhammas performing functions. Is the key maybe whether there is belief that dhammas can be selected or made to arise? Phil To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 15:36:04 +0100 Subject: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 Dear Nina & Friends, Another day of excellent discussions - large numbers of Vietnamese attending each session, so it's all on quite a large scale in the very large coffee lounge with an extra session in our hotel lobby with the two bhikkhus again. Ajahn Sujin, Most the Thais go on trips and have more leisurely meals, whilst Ajahn, Jon, I and those who attend all the sessions have a busy schedule and a "speed lunch" today to be ready in time for the session with the bhikkhus. Qus about sila and samadhi before understanding, on what can be done: - "I can do" - no understanding of anatta. A.Sujin asked me to explain in detail about asavas, oghas and yogas - fortunate we'd discussed these a lot in KK! Lots of discussion this morning about sila - kusala sila, akusala sila and avyakatha sila. Even though many of the Vietnamese have read and heard a lot and are familiar with Pali terms, so much is new. Qus about 'how to practice?' - Begin now from moment to moment to understand realities. Seeing....thinking....not self. Careful study is very important otherwise we all just have our own ideass. Whenever there is no understanding, avijja now. Discussion about the meaning of study and how we have to hear the Teachings many times, wider and deeper and carefully consider each word. One of the bhikkhus asked an interesting qu. He asked if all dhammas are anatta, why do monks need to confess about transgressions. A.Sujin's answer was along these lines: All people have kilesa (defilements) including monks. After listening to the Teachings, one knows one's accumulations to live and develop panna a a bhikkhu or a lay person. Since one decided to be a bhikkhu, one must know the difference between being a bhikkhu and a lay-person. I In the beginning, there were no rules for the bhikkhus, but whenever any monk behaved not according to monkhood, the Buddha lay down a rule and asked the opinion of all monks as to whether it was beneficial. So the rules were agreed by all monks at the time so that anyone who'd like to be a monk should know the rules and see if they can follow. That's why monks know by themselves what has been done against these rules. The Buddha was very compassionate. He knew everyone has akusala, so there were many diferent degrees of penalty, so the bhikkhus could ask forgiveness sincerely and not repeat the offences. So the monks' life, properly led, is so pure, worthy of being respected. If any monk does not follow the rules, it was said that he is 'not suitable to be called a monk'. Such a one is said to be like a thief because he robs lay-people of food and things. So the rules and confessions are for the monk to be aware of being a monk. A.Sujin also talked about the other meaning of bhikkhus as taught by the Buddha - anyone who sees the danger of seeing, hearing and other conditioned dhammas in one's life. Qu about when there is intention to check whether awareness or seeing is present, is there any awareness. Ans: When there is no understanding, no awareness. Qu and discussion about 'intention to do. Ans: Intention is not an 8FP factor - "I" again, no understanding of reality, not self. Lots of discussion on khandhas this afternoon, also qu on hunger, qus from the monks on meditation, Ajahn's practice (!), painful feeling - always back to this moment and realities now. Late and tired again..... so glad to have wifi in the room. Nina, thought of you when Jon and I popped out for a simple bowl of delicious Vietnamese noodles rather than going for a meal with the Thai group! You'd stay with us, I'm sure. Ajahn Sujin has asked after your condition and is so very happy that you're coming to Thailand in Jan. She'd like you to know that everyone thinks about you and has been so very concerned even though they don't contact you. Metta Sarah ======== #132827 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 7:36 am Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting buddhatrue Hi Nina and Sarah, Yeah, I think this new group format is making me a bit edgy. I keep looking for a solution but they have closed about every door! I am not giving up though. I should probably stop posting until I get my head straight. This thing really makes me angry. James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear James and Sarah, James, you really made me laugh. I took the matter quite differently from what you thought. Nina. Op 2 sep 2013, om 14:57 heeft < buddhatrue@... > < buddhatrue@... > het volgende geschreven: > James: That is not the way to talk to Nina. She is the senior elder member of this group and it is not for you to give her instructions about what to do or what to expect. I know you want to help her but you shouldn't go too far, #132828 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 9:47 am Subject: RE: Voting ptaus1 Hi all, According to Yahoo, most of the issues that we raised have now been fixed in Neo. There is only one - the most important in my view, that didn't yet even get their attention it seems - the option to Expand Messages and be able to quickly read through the latest ones without having to click anything. The problem is probably that many people have raised this same idea, so votes are in fact divided and just not getting enough numbers. So, if you haven't already voted, please do so on the topics below, which all have to do with Expanding messages. If there's anything you feel the new format is missing, please let us know so that we can vote for your idea. Thanks http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4358793-expand-me\ ssages http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371438-how-can-i\ -get-the-expanded-message-view-in-chronol http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369817-the-expan\ d-messages-function-of-the-group-websit http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4374777-the-new-f\ ormat-makes-it-more-time-consuming-to-rea http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371638-i-do-not-\ see-how-to-expand-the-messages-i-have-go http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369001-what-happ\ ened-expand-messages-many-messages-open- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362753-could-exp\ and-be-returned-to-the-message-page-in- Thanks Best wishes pt #132829 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 12:49 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas thomaslaw03 Hi Ken H, I suggest you read carefully the recent reply by Howard to Nina, under the topic: A lump of foam (132822). It is very good responses in connection to 'phenomena (dhammas) arisen by causal condition', and 'the middle way'. Thomas --- ... Hi Thomas, ---- <. . .> > T: Do you mean you have no choice? ----- KH: Thanks for reading my post despite the formatting mess. Your question was rhetorical, of course, but I will answer it anyway. No, I do not mean I have no choice; I am referring to you and Howard, and all the others who believe there are no ultimate realities. Your interpretations of the suttas are unsustainable, and so you refuse to discuss them. You say the khandhas exist but they are not real. Howard says they have no own being. That doesn’t make sense! ------------------- > T: It seems to me you are unable to made perfectly clear according to the suttas, which do not even have the term, paramattha. ----------------- KH: What else could namas and rupas be if not absolute realities? Why would the Buddha describe them and their characteristics if they were not real and did not have characteristics? Ken H (Sending this post from Firefox to see if it has more luck than Chrome.) #132830 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 2:48 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ----- > T: I suggest you read carefully the recent reply by Howard to Nina, under the topic: A lump of foam (132822). It is very good responses in connection to 'phenomena (dhammas) arisen by causal condition', and 'the middle way'. ----- Thanks Thomas, I am very familiar with Howard’s sutta interpretations. Howard believes Nibbana is the only reality. He says anything else that might appear to exist is just “Nibbana misperceived.” Do you agree with him on that point? I assume you must. Otherwise, why would you be so adamant that conditioned dhammas were not ultimately real? What other reason could you have for such a strange interpretation of the suttas? Ken H #132831 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 4:10 pm Subject: Re: Voting sarahprocter... Dear All, Yes, please vote on all the links Pt gives below and in addition on the one I gave before on replying in context (if you haven't already). http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4373994-reply-in-\ %5C%20context thanks Sarah p.s. If you have more than one email account registered, pls vote with them both! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- > > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4358793-expand-me\ ssages > > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371438-how-can-i\ -get-the-expanded-message-view-in-chronol > > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369817-the-expan\ d-messages-function-of-the-group-websit > > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4374777-the-new-f\ ormat-makes-it-more-time-consuming-to-rea > > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371638-i-do-not-\ see-how-to-expand-the-messages-i-have-go > > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369001-what-happ\ ened-expand-messages-many-messages-open- > > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362753-could-exp\ and-be-returned-to-the-message-page-in- #132832 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:00 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas thomaslaw03 Ken H, I think your interpretation is very strange. The reason of your faith is not found in the suttas! Thomas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Thomas, ----- > T: I suggest you read carefully the recent reply by Howard to Nina, under the topic: A lump of foam (132822). It is very good responses in connection to 'phenomena (dhammas) arisen by causal condition', and 'the middle way'. ----- Thanks Thomas, I am very familiar with Howard’s sutta interpretations. Howard believes Nibbana is the only reality. He says anything else that might appear to exist is just “Nibbana misperceived.” Do you agree with him on that point? I assume you must. Otherwise, why would you be so adamant that conditioned dhammas were not ultimately real? What other reason could you have for such a strange interpretation of the suttas? Ken H #132833 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:23 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 tadaomiyamot... Hi Nina, everyone is getting old; and one has to be very careful about not falling down. Even conventional awareness helps one not hurt oneself. Take care, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Sarah, thank you for the interesting note. Op 2 sep 2013, om 16:36 heeft Sarah Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Nina, thought of you when Jon and I popped out for a simple bowl of delicious Vietnamese noodles rather than going for a meal with the Thai group! You'd stay with us, I'm sure. Ajahn Sujin has asked after your condition and is so very happy that you're coming to Thailand in Jan. She'd like you to know that everyone thinks about you and has been so very concerned even though they don't contact you. ------ N: I would sign for the noodles. How kind she asked after my condition. I still have a long way to go. I am a bit anxious about steps, staircases etc. like you had already these days. But there are enough kind people around to help. The luggage, the airport etc. How and when to book, when will you be in the Peninsula? Nina. #132834 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:43 pm Subject: RE: E-notes from Saigon 2 tadaomiyamot... Hi Sarah, It's nice to hear that Kun Sujin is very spirited (as usual). tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Friends, What a full day of dhamma discussion! The session with the large group this morning - lively, good questions. Ajahn Sujin in great form. Occasionally, Jon & I assist her if she needs a breal or to remind her to pause for Vietnamese translations! (We're all sitting behind a table in front of everyone). Early afternoon, a session with a couple of Vietnamese Theravada monks and a small group in our hotel. Very keen understanding about realities and interest in what she's saying.Ă‚ Followed immediately by the main afternoon discussion with the large group. Ajahn has now been talking on Dhamma for several hours during the day.Ă‚ In the evening Jon and I planned to return to the hotel to work on DSG problems and personal matters, but a small group of Vietnamese friends kindly invited us to go out with them for a bowl of noodles and more Dhamma discussion - so that probably makes 7hrs or so of discussion for the day!Ă‚ Just a fewf brief quotes/notes from A.Sujin: "I should try" - not enough understanding of what the Buddha taught as anatta. If one tries to understand anatta, impossible, because atta is trying. Hardness is very common. It appears often. Everyone knows this. It's the oject of kaya vinnana (body consciousness with no understanding, appearing as usual, not a reality. The Buddha didn't assign anyone to be Master because the Teachings themselves are the Master! Without understanding, there is wanting to do in order to know and that's impossible because the Teachings are not to become attached more and more. Detachment comes from understanding little by little. What's the purpose of patipatti if not the understanding of reality stage by stage? Qu about Ajahn Sujin's own experiences.Ă‚ KS: Would you like me to talk about understanding and satipatthana? When there is no understanding now, can seeing now be the object of satipatthana? How many cittas are there? 89 - this is not the meaning of studying. Different accumulations - Some give a lot - danupanissaya. Some don't give so much but have very good manners of speech and deeds - silanupanissaya. Some develop calm away from akusala and the understanding of realities - bhavanupanissaya. Some have upanissaya for wrong understanding. This is the most dangerous of akusala because it will lead to all akusala and wrong understanding. Metta Sarah ======= #132835 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 10:54 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 3 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Friends, Another full day of discussion in Saigon for some of us whilst most the Thais went on a full-day trip by river to the Mekong delta. Sounded lovely, but listening to Dhamma and sharing Dhamma is more precious! Lots of discussion about meditation, practices and qus at the beginning which pointed out that other Teachers have different ideas to ours. Sounds like DSG? Yes! As I recall the very first question was wondering how Ajahn Sujin could have such deep understanding without following a meditation practice. She said we have to consider the Buddha's Teachings very carefully. Did people in the old days meditate and go to see the Buddha to ask about meditation? Anyone who went to see him listened to the Teachings. For them, the Buddha was refuge. The Buddha didn't assign anyone to be the Teacher, just the Teachings themselves. On the point about how Ajahn Sujin's explanations are very different to those of other meditation teachers, she said that for the first 5 ascetics who heard the Teachings, it was also very different. There is ignorance all day, so it must be very different when we hear about the Path and right understanding. A friend, Lan, suggested right understanding is not enough - many people here, she said, have good intellectual understanding of dhammas as anatta, but we need to do more. There was a long discussion about khandhas - khandha means the arising and falling away of reality. Each khandha is conditioned to arise and fall away completely. If we just talk about a lot of terms and details that we've heard or read in books without any understanding, it's like talking about a person we haven't met. How can we see that person? Not by thinking or wishing to see that person. There must be conditions for realities to arise, not just clinging to an idea of doing something. Vedana is a conditioned reality which arises with every citta. Who can change it or stop it from arising now? This afternoon there were questions about samatha experiences and development and questions about samatha as pasaddhi cetasika, calm with all kusala cittas following some comments I'd made earlier. A.Sujin talked about how not living in luxury had nothing to do with samatha as many believed in Thailand or that living in a quiet place or living alone doesn't mean calm at all. One may be very disturbed. The questions had also been about concentration - usually people think of samatha as the development of concentration. Ekaggata cetasika (concentration) arises with all cittas. When the citta is kusala, then it needs the assistance of at least 19 sobhana cetasikas including kusala ekaggata. The concentration conditions the citta to experience one object. Seeing only sees visible object. One one object experienced by ekaggata, even though there are different visible objects. The characteristic of concentration doesn't appear as concentration until there is focussing on an object that appears. In a day, this is bound to be miccha samadhi, not calm, but it's mistaken for calm because people sit alone and concentrate on one object. So the development of samatha and vipassana must be with right understanding. If we think we can experience or understand anything without studying very carefully then it's bound to be the object of misunderstanding when there's no understanding. This is why there's a miccha 8fold-path with miccha samadhi too. Before the Buddha's time, so many wise people could understand the difference between kusala and akusala. They could understand the danger of experiencing of sense objects. They could understand which objects could be thought about many times leading to the development of calmness. However, there was no understanding of dhammas as anatta. After the Buddha's enlightenment, those with the accumulations saw the benefit of understanding at any moment. He taught for 45 years because the development of panna takes time. It takes time to be truthful to know how much understanding about realities there is now. It's so very difficult to eradicate the idea of self. Some discussion about hardness. Birds can experience hardness, but they're born without panna cetasika. They can hear sound, but no idea of the meaning. When born as an animal, not time to have the opportunity to develop understanding. Metta Sarah ====== #132836 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 10:56 pm Subject: RE: RE: Voting buddhatrue Hi Pt. Thank you for your kind efforts to post all the links to vote on the important issues. I have been voting, but I find even the voting process insulting! Maybe this is just me, but they instantly give a message about how I have "so-so number votes left". Excuse me?? As long as I am alive and kicking I have an unlimited number of votes left!!! I really don't like the way they have treated us in this situation, and it has made me very upset. Whewww, okay, I got that off my chest! Anyway, thank you Pt for your undying patience to work within the system handed to us. At least you gave us some tools to fight back. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi all, According to Yahoo, most of the issues that we raised have now been fixed in Neo. There is only one - the most important in my view, that didn't yet even get their attention it seems - the option to Expand Messages and be able to quickly read through the latest ones without having to click anything. The problem is probably that many people have raised this same idea, so votes are in fact divided and just not getting enough numbers. So, if you haven't already voted, please do so on the topics below, which all have to do with Expanding messages. If there's anything you feel the new format is missing, please let us know so that we can vote for your idea. Thanks http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4358793-expand-me\ ssages http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371438-how-can-i\ -get-the-expanded-message-view-in-chronol http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369817-the-expan\ d-messages-function-of-the-group-websit http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4374777-the-new-f\ ormat-makes-it-more-time-consuming-to-rea http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371638-i-do-not-\ see-how-to-expand-the-messages-i-have-go http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369001-what-happ\ ened-expand-messages-many-messages-open- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362753-could-exp\ and-be-returned-to-the-message-page-in- Thanks Best wishes pt #132837 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 11:00 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 4 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, contd For the few of us who attend all the discussions, including Jagkrit and his wife, no time for sight-seeing or anything more than a simple, nearby lunch, especially when extra sessions are arranged with the monks. (It was the monks who had asked the first questions I mentioned this afternoon about samatha and we have an extra session with them tomorrow at Ajahn's invitation.) What is appearing now? Only that which can be known. Otherwise, they are just words. A long discussion about kamma and about the 2 kinds of cetana. Jon and I were asked to give explanations and detail too. There is cetana which arises with every citta, sahajata kamma which assembles the other cetasikas and the cetana that arises at moments of kusala and akusala which has the additional function of willing or urging the other cetasikas and citta to perform their functions. Kamma doesn't just produce rebirth citta, but also conditions the next moments which have different functions. The last kamma of the last life collected all the other kammas to bring such results. From rebirth, that so-called person until death and then another one. So a bird is born and a bird dies, a deva is born and a deva dies, so to speak. Next life, there will be the result of different kamma, a different being. Attachment and cetana conditioning each other when akusala citta arises. The cetana urges to the other cetasikas to do something wrong and the attachment conditons it and the other cetasikas and citta at the same time. The citta itself has no shape, no form, no taste, no colour. It's just a pure (pandara) element which experiences an object. No matter what kind of citta it is, it is like other cittas which arise and experience an object. Panna can arise to discern the true nature of a citta such as seeing. Finally: Be patient and develop kusala as parami to clean the dirty mind and right understanding will lead the way to have more and more kusala by conditions and avijja will be less and less. Metta Sarah ===== #132838 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 11:50 pm Subject: RE: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Voting buddhatrue Hi Sarah...and all, Thank you for the really sweet and considerate e-mail you sent me off-list to this post. I get really upset about what happens to DSG because I consider this group like my family. Hey, I get angry/mad at my family and disappear for weeks, months, years at a time about my family. But I know my family will be there for me when I really need them. I know it sounds crazy, but DSG is like that to me....they have put up with my wildest outbursts and still accepted what value I have to offer. So, love or hate, DSG is like my family and I fight for my family!!! Those Yahoo robots don't know what hornet's nest they disturbed this time!! I will keep fighting....for the truth and compassion. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Nina and Sarah, Yeah, I think this new group format is making me a bit edgy. I keep looking for a solution but they have closed about every door! I am not giving up though. I should probably stop posting until I get my head straight. This thing really makes me angry. James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , < dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > wrote: Dear James and Sarah, James, you really made me laugh. I took the matter quite differently from what you thought. Nina. Op 2 sep 2013, om 14:57 heeft < buddhatrue@... > < buddhatrue@... > het volgende geschreven: > James: That is not the way to talk to Nina. She is the senior elder member of this group and it is not for you to give her instructions about what to do or what to expect. I know you want to help her but you shouldn't go too far, #132839 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 11:52 pm Subject: Re: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Thomas) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > ----- > T: I suggest you read carefully the recent reply by Howard to Nina, under the topic: A lump of foam (132822). It is very good responses in connection to 'phenomena (dhammas) arisen by causal condition', and 'the middle way'. > > ----- > Thanks Thomas, I am very familiar with Howard’s > sutta interpretations. Howard believes Nibbana is the only reality. He says > anything else that might appear to exist is just “Nibbana misperceived.” > > > > Do you agree with him on that point? I assume > you must. Otherwise, why would you be so adamant that conditioned dhammas were > not ultimately real? What other reason > could you have for such a strange interpretation of the suttas? --------------------------------- HCW: Ken, what, please, is *your* understanding of the following teaching of the Buddha's, and also those from the Uraga Sutta at the end of this post? /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) ===================================== With metta, Howard No Core or Substance to Be Found, All Unreal! /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #132840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for this long note. Op 3 sep 2013, om 14:54 heeft Sarah Abbott het volgende geschreven: > He taught for 45 years because the development of panna takes time. It takes time to be truthful to know how much understanding about realities there is now. It's so very difficult to eradicate the idea of self. ------- N: How little there is now. Very important to realize this. Self all the time. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #132841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 nilovg Dear Sarah, How good the monks have such an interest. Are they Vietnamese, and how many of them? Nina. Op 3 sep 2013, om 15:00 heeft sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > It was the monks who had asked the first questions I mentioned this afternoon about samatha and we have an extra session with them tomorrow at Ajahn's invitation.) #132842 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2 sep 2013, om 17:12 heeft Upasaka@aol.com het volgende geschreven: > HCW: I don't think that such flashings in the void should be continually honored with the title "realities". They are fleeting phenomena to be seen through as empty and, *as the Buddha himself says*, "unreal". > Are they nothing at all? No, I do not say that. That would be nihilism. But we need to adhere to the middle-way of thinking and speaking, avoiding substantialist terminology. ------ N: So, we circle around the term reality. You do not say that they are nothing at all. Clear. I think that we are dreaming when we believe that we see persons. Then we are involved in the outward appearance and the details, as is stated in the suttas. What is seen is just a fleeting dhamma, visible object. A person is not a reality, whereas visible object is. You say: < We should zero in on going beyond what is conditioned and ephemeral to what is truly real, unconditioned, and with independent own being, namely nibbana.> Yes, but how to reach this goal? The unconditioned element we cannot yet grasp. We can only learn more about conditioned elements. The word conditioned implies . It is real, I mean, it has a characteristic that can be directly experienced, without having to use words. We read in the “Dhammapada” vs. 277-280 (“Minor Anthologies”) that the Buddha said: “ â€All saáą…khÄra dhammas are impermanent’, when one discerns this with wisdom, one turns away from dukkha; this is the Path to purity. â€All saáą…khÄra dhammas are dukkha’, when one discerns this with wisdom, one turns away from dukkha; this is the Path to purity. â€All dhammas are non-self (anattÄ)’, when onediscerns this with wisdom, one turns away from dukkha; this is the Path to purity.” ------- Thus, conditioned dhammas have to be known as they are, no other way to nibbaana. The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. If you find the term reality confusing you can replace it by element. In Pali: dhaatu. The same stem as dhamma. ------ Nina. #132843 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 1:11 am Subject: Heading back to the States kevinf596 Hi everyone, I am heading back to the States soon, and I just wanted to thank everyone for their hospitality. This trip to Thailand has been amazing for me, and I was able to retrieve some of the Right Understanding that I lost. The kindness of Jon, Sarah, Sukinder, Betty, and many others was just so amazing. I have very good vipaaka , born in the human realm but also with such amazing friends. That is "not so easy". I hope to make it back to Thailand soon and see you all again then. Take care, I love you all, (Leaving on the 5'th,probably won't be online for a few days as I have a stop-off in New York City for a day or two before going home). Kevin #132844 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 7:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Thank you for continuing this conversation. I admire your imperturbability! :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 2 sep 2013, om 17:12 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > HCW: I don't think that such flashings in the void should be continually honored with the title "realities". They are fleeting phenomena to be seen through as empty and, *as the Buddha himself says*, "unreal". > > Are they nothing at all? No, I do not say that. That would be nihilism. But we need to adhere to the middle-way of thinking and speaking, avoiding substantialist terminology. > ------ > N: So, we circle around the term reality. You do not say that they are nothing at all. Clear. --------------------------- HCW: Good! :-) --------------------------- > I think that we are dreaming when we believe that we see persons. -------------------------- HCW: I agree! These alleged macro-entities are just conglomerations of 5-sense-door phenomena worked over by thinking. ---------------------------- Then we are involved in the outward appearance and the details, as is stated in the suttas. > What is seen is just a fleeting dhamma, visible object. A person is not a reality, whereas visible object is. --------------------------- HCW: Viewing a visible object - what I would call "a sight" - as a separate entity is also a matter of thinking and reifying, In my view, whereas it is actually, as I believe the Buddha teaches, merely a fleeting element of experience, and not "a reality". ---------------------------- > You say: < We should zero in on going beyond what is conditioned and ephemeral to what is truly real, unconditioned, and with independent own being, namely nibbana.> > Yes, but how to reach this goal? The unconditioned element we cannot yet grasp. --------------------------- HCW: By means of the noble 8-fold path which enables the *seeing through* of the empty, fleeting facets of samsara. (My understanding, in accord with that of most Buddhists - though that fact, of course, doesn't prove correctness - is that the noble 8-fold path is a tripartite path of intentional practice, consisting of the cultivation of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. ----------------------------- We can only learn more about conditioned elements. The word conditioned implies . It is real, I mean, it has a characteristic that can be directly experienced, without having to use words. > > We read in the “Dhammapada” vs. 277-280 (“Minor Anthologies”) that the Buddha said: > “ â€All saáą…khÄra dhammas are impermanent’, when one discerns this with wisdom, one turns away from dukkha; this is the Path to purity. > â€All saáą…khÄra dhammas are dukkha’, when one discerns this with wisdom, one turns away from dukkha; this is the Path to purity. > â€All dhammas are non-self (anattÄ)’, when onediscerns this with wisdom, one turns away from dukkha; this is the Path to purity.” > ------- > Thus, conditioned dhammas have to be known as they are, no other way to nibbaana. ----------------------------- HCW: And what is that nature we must come to know about these dhammas? I believe it is exactly the tilakkhana, not the alleged "reality" of these dhammas. -------------------------------- The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. ------------------------------ HCW: The clinging to self is last to go, if I'm not mistaken. ------------------------------ > If you find the term reality confusing you can replace it by element. In Pali: dhaatu. The same stem as dhamma. ------------------------------- HCW: I prefer 'phenomena', but 'element' is certainly a term much less "loaded" than 'realities'. -------------------------------- > ------ > Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Experience Only /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #132845 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 8:37 am Subject: Re: Heading back to the States sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, Wishing you a safe trip home, remembering the only refuge is the Dhamma! Looking forward to seeing you again whenever you're able to next visit Bangkok. We were all delighted and inspired by your keen interest and I was glad to spend more time with you. Keep in touch here and keep sharing the Dhamma with us all! Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi everyone, I am heading back to the States soon, and I just wanted to thank everyone for their hospitality. ====== #132846 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 8:43 am Subject: RE: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 philofillet Dear group I highlight one part: >>The citta itself has no shape, no form, no taste, no colour. It's just a pure (pandara) element which experiences an object. No matter what kind of citta it is, it is like other cittas which arise and experience an object. Panna can arise to discern the true nature of a citta such as seeing. Ph: The dark citta. Even seeing is dark. Only visible object is nit dark. Phil P.s The new mobile phone version doesn't have files, so no way to get at "Useful Posts."or transcription passages from "member files." And for some reason (avoidable I'm sure but chanda doesn't arise to help figure it out) Naomi's computer translates them into Japanese automatically when I sccess them. So until I replace my computer no "Useful Posts" or passages of transcriptions to repost. If anyone else feels like reposting "useful posts" ot transcrptions it would be ...useful. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2013 13:00:16 +0000 Subject: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 Dear Friends, contd For the few of us who attend all the discussions, including Jagkrit and his wife, no time for sight-seeing or anything more than a simple, nearby lunch, especially when extra sessions are arranged with the monks. (It was the monks who had asked the first questions I mentioned this afternoon about samatha and we have an extra session with them tomorrow at Ajahn's invitation.) What is appearing now? Only that which can be known. Otherwise, they are just words. A long discussion about kamma and about the 2 kinds of cetana. Jon and I were asked to give explanations and detail too. There is cetana which arises with every citta, sahajata kamma which assembles the other cetasikas and the cetana that arises at moments of kusala and akusala which has the additional function of willing or urging the other cetasikas and citta to perform their functions. Kamma doesn't just produce rebirth citta, but also conditions the next moments which have different functions. The last kamma of the last life collected all the other kammas to bring such results. From rebirth, that so-called person until death and then another one. So a bird is born and a bird dies, a deva is born and a deva dies, so to speak. Next life, there will be the result of different kamma, a different being. Attachment and cetana conditioning each other when akusala citta arises. The cetana urges to the other cetasikas to do something wrong and the attachment conditons it and the other cetasikas and citta at the same time. The citta itself has no shape, no form, no taste, no colour. It's just a pure (pandara) element which experiences an object. No matter what kind of citta it is, it is like other cittas which arise and experience an object. Panna can arise to discern the true nature of a citta such as seeing. Finally: Be patient and develop kusala as parami to clean the dirty mind and right understanding will lead the way to have more and more kusala by conditions and avijja will be less and less. Metta Sarah ===== #132847 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, philip Coristine wrote: > I highlight one part: > > >>The citta itself has no shape, no form, no taste, no colour. It's just a pure (pandara) element which experiences an object. No matter what kind of citta it is, it is like other cittas which arise and experience an object. Panna can arise to discern the true nature of a citta such as seeing. > > Ph: The dark citta. Even seeing is dark. Only visible object is not dark. ... S: Yes. Citta as pandara and 'coloured' by accompanying cetasikas. **** > P.s The new mobile phone version doesn't have files, so no way to get at "Useful Posts."or transcription passages from "member files." And for some reason (avoidable I'm sure but chanda doesn't arise to help figure it out) Naomi's computer translates them into Japanese automatically .... S: More work for Pt to find some more links for us to vote for! Please help by voting - it does have some influence! Pt has really been working hard, so let's all appreciate his efforts and help by giving the votes he asks for. Pt, maybe you can give the general link again for the site and the outstanding links to vote for. Breakfast time with our Thai friends. It's the only time we see those of them who go on the trips, so fun to catch up on the sight-seeing whilst they catch up on the discussions. Metta Sarah ===== #132848 From: Jagkrit Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heading back to the States jagkrit2012 Dear Kevin We are glad to know you and appreciate your friendliness and contribution in our dhamma discussion. We do hope you have a nice trip back home and look forward to seeing you back here in BKK next year. Anumodhana to your right understanding in dhamma from Than Acharn Sujin discussion. Sincerely, Jagkrit and Chadaporn Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2013, at 22:11, wrote: <. . .> > #132849 From: Jagkrit Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 11:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 jagkrit2012 Dear friends Some more reminders add to very good Sarah's discussion summarizing. If someone tell you to do or practice, ask him what is he doing now? Seeing, do we have to do or do we have to practice? Seeing does its duty as usual. It is the same as other Cittas. No one does nothing. Right result is to understanding what is appearing now. One develops samatha bhavana because he sees the danger of akusalas in daily life, not wanting anything. Listening and considering dhamma is the way to develop understanding until the understanding is deeply rooted and penetrates the absolute realities which arises and falls away in each moment. Wrong view about self, then, will be eradicated. One can answer that rupa is not me but what and when rupa is not me? If it is not precise, it is just thinking. In order to understand realities, we shall begin with right now otherwise we keep on thinking and thinking repeatedly without real understanding. The teaching of The Lord Buddha always gives right understanding each word. Without conditions, nothing arises. Not understanding is real and right understanding is also real. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2013, at 20:00, "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" wrote: >. . .> #132850 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 1:51 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 philofillet Dear group Thanks for the notes Jagkrit. >>> One develops samatha bhavana because he sees the danger of akusalas in daily life, not wanting anything. This is what all the debates come down to, and would be resolved the moment wisdom clicks and allows modern "Buddhists" to admit with honesty that there is just wanting mental comfort, wanting an escape from fear, wanting, wanting, all the time. And in service of that wanting, a belief in the ability to make dhammas happen as desired. That's the ditthi to go with all the lobha. But that click doesn't happen very often. So the debates go on and on... Phil To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: jagkrit2012@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 08:43:09 +0700 Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 Dear friends Some more reminders add to very good Sarah's discussion summarizing. If someone tell you to do or practice, ask him what is he doing now? Seeing, do we have to do or do we have to practice? Seeing does its duty as usual. It is the same as other Cittas. No one does nothing. Right result is to understanding what is appearing now. One develops samatha bhavana because he sees the danger of akusalas in daily life, not wanting anything. Listening and considering dhamma is the way to develop understanding until the understanding is deeply rooted and penetrates the absolute realities which arises and falls away in each moment. Wrong view about self, then, will be eradicated. One can answer that rupa is not me but what and when rupa is not me? If it is not precise, it is just thinking. In order to understand realities, we shall begin with right now otherwise we keep on thinking and thinking repeatedly without real understanding. The teaching of The Lord Buddha always gives right understanding each word. Without conditions, nothing arises. Not understanding is real and right understanding is also real. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2013, at 20:00, "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" <<. . .> #132851 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 2:04 pm Subject: RE: Re: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- > HCW: Ken, what, please, is *your* understanding of the following teaching of the Buddha's, and also those from the Uraga Sutta at the end of this post? --------- KH: We have had this conversation so many times I am genuinely surprised that you still have to ask. Even so, every time we have this conversation I think a little more about it and I understand it a little more. So thanks for that. I my previous replies I have quoted from other replies addressed to you (taken from the Useful Posts file). This time I will just summarise those quotes very briefly: On the Uraga Sutta: “ These verses, however, are not meant to convey the idea that the world is mere illusion, a play of the imagination. What underlies its deceptive appearance, the flux of mental and physical processes, is real enough in the sense that it is effect-producing. The unreality lies in what we attribute to the world, and not in the world itself.” (Nyanaponika ) On the Dvayatanupassana Sutta: Norman's translation: "In whatever way [the world-dwellers] think it, it turns out other than that. For it is false[musaa] to it[self]. Whatever is transitory [S:ittara - short-lived] indeed has a false nature [mosadhamma]." Sarah’s comment: S: I think it's stressing the vipallasas, the perversions of perception as further explained in the following verses, here from Ireland's on-line translation: "See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones[1] know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. "Forms, sounds, tastes, scents, bodily contacts and ideas which are agreeable, pleasant and charming, all these, while they last, are deemed to be happiness by the world with its devas. But when they cease that is agreed by all to be unsatisfactory. By the Noble Ones, the cessation of the existing body[2] is seen as happiness. This is the reverse of the outlook of the whole world. "What others call happiness, that the Noble Ones declare to be suffering. What others call suffering, that the Noble Ones have found to be happiness. See how difficult it is to understand the Dhamma! Herein those without insight have completely gone astray. For those under the veil (of ignorance) it is obscured, for those who cannot see it is utter darkness. But for the good and the wise it is as obvious as the light for those who can see. Even though close to it, the witless who do not know the Dhamma, do not comprehend it. "By those overcome by attachment to existence, those who drift with the stream of existence, those in the realm of Mara, this Dhamma is not properly understood. Who other than the Noble Ones, are fit to fully understand that state, by perfect knowledge of which they realize final deliverance, free from defilements?"[ KH: Sorry I couldn’t to trim Ireland’s translation. It was just too good! In short, the Dvayatanupassana Sutta is about perversions of perception, it is not about non-paramattha status. But I told you that last week in message #132789 ! :-) Ken H #132852 From: Ken Howard Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 3:01 pm Subject: Re Neo (132814) kenhowardau Hi Pt, --- >If you want paragraph spaces, you can post from your email - then paragraph lines will appear - that's what I'm doing now, so hopefully everything will be nice and neat. To post from your email to the group, you need to put dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com in the "To:" box (so, that's the dsg email address). --- KH: Thanks for your help. I am posting this from my email. A bit fed up after that last mess I posted! Ken H #132853 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 3:11 pm Subject: opening posts gazita2002 Hallo friends, is anyone else having difficulties opening posts - newer posts seem to open fairly quickly but older posts won't open altho it states at the top of the page that its 'loading...'? cheers, azita #132854 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] opening posts philofillet Hi Azita That happened when I went to the useful posts file. If there are conditions for patience and good cheer, great. Perhaps we are too attached to the archives anyways. Ajahn's message is so simple. What is the reality now? How much will the archives help us understand the reality that has arisen now? (Quite a lot, probably, since correct intellectual understanding is a necessary condition!) Phil To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: gazita2002@yahoo.com.au Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2013 22:11:06 -0700 Subject: [dsg] opening posts Hallo friends, is anyone else having difficulties opening posts - newer posts seem to open fairly quickly but older posts won't open altho it states at the top of the page that its 'loading...'? cheers, azita #132855 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 8:27 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 tadaomiyamot... Ni Nina, During the dhamma sessions in August, Kun Sujin nailed down me with "nasty" comments/questions about ditthi. She could clear see that this guy was full of maana and ditthi. I'm hoping that she would do so again in September. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Sarah, thank you for this long note. Op 3 sep 2013, om 14:54 heeft Sarah Abbott het volgende geschreven: > He taught for 45 years because the development of panna takes time. It takes time to be truthful to know how much understanding about realities there is now. It's so very difficult to eradicate the idea of self. ------- N: How little there is now. Very important to realize this. Self all the time. Nina. #132856 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 8:45 pm Subject: RE: opening posts ptaus1 Hi Azita and Phil, > A: is anyone else having difficulties opening posts - newer posts seem to open fairly quickly but older posts won't open altho it states at the top of the page that its 'loading...'? cheers, azita p: Not sure if this is the same thing - what I often get is that the new interface basically seems to stop responding to clicks - you click on a link, or another message, or a button, etc - it says it's Loading... but nothing happens. I think the issue here has to do with Javascript - basically it's the new thing that Yahoo is implementing that's supposed to make everything faster, which it usually does. I think the way it works is that it loads a whole lot of stuff, so that when you click on something, it's already loaded, so it seems to open up very fast. However, if it's not loaded properly in the first place, then clicking on things just doesn't work, since the links didn't load properly, so to speak. The solution - click Refresh. But not the Refresh button in the Yahoo interface (the looped arrow button), but Refresh in the browser itself - usually at the very top of the window next to the address bar. As for older posts loading slower - don't know, maybe they need to be converted to Neo so it's taking a bit of time. Best wishes pt #132857 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 9:09 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Phil and all, > Phil: The new mobile phone version doesn't have files, so no way to get at "Useful Posts."or transcription passages from "member files." And for some reason (avoidable I'm sure but chanda doesn't arise to help figure it out) Naomi's computer translates them into Japanese automatically The feedback page says that issues for ipads and smartphones are under review: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4356368-the-new-g\ roup-neo-site-is-not-useable-on-my-ipad-a You can post a comment under that idea to give them more details on what to fix. > S: Pt, maybe you can give the general link again for the site and the outstanding links to vote for. The feedback page is: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups For the outstanding stuff, only this comes to mind at this point - Expanded messages - it probably needs another 200 votes until it gets Yahoo attention: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4358793-expand-me\ ssages http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371438-how-can-i\ -get-the-expanded-message-view-in-chronol http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369817-the-expan\ d-messages-function-of-the-group-websit http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4374777-the-new-f\ ormat-makes-it-more-time-consuming-to-rea http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4371638-i-do-not-\ see-how-to-expand-the-messages-i-have-go http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369001-what-happ\ ened-expand-messages-many-messages-open- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362753-could-exp\ and-be-returned-to-the-message-page-in- Best wishes pt #132858 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 10:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 sarahprocter... Hi Pt & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > S: Pt, maybe you can give the general link again for the site and the outstanding links to vote for. > > The feedback page is: > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups > > For the outstanding stuff, only this comes to mind at this point - Expanded messages - it probably needs another 200 votes until it gets Yahoo attention: .... S: Again, (apart from Nina, respectfully mentioned!!), if you haven't given 3 votes to each of the following expanded messages links, we would greatly appreciate it, even if you never use it. We really rely on this function a lot behind the scenes and it really makes reading through posts a lot easier - no need to click and open each one individually. Sarah p.s If you used all your votes up on items that already have large numbers of votes, you can retrieve them and vote again. > http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- > <. . .> #132859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 nilovg Dear Tadao, we all have this and we all need this, the questions about di.t.thi. We accumulated so much. Nina. Op 4 sep 2013, om 12:27 heeft het volgende geschreven: During the dhamma sessions in August, Kun Sujin nailed down me with "nasty" comments/questions about ditthi. She could clear see that this guy was full of maana and ditthi. #132860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 10:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 nilovg dear Sarah (and James), Op 4 sep 2013, om 14:00 heeft sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: apart from Nina, respectfully mentioned!!) ----- N: Ha, ha. I really have such a good laugh, aloud, all on my own. Nina. #132861 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 10:31 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 5 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The end of our last dhamma discussion-filled days in Saigon. There was no day-time trip for our Thai friends, (most of whom have gone out on a river dinner cruise now), so most of them joined us for discussions as well and the room was full. Also, the two Vietnamese (Thervada) bhikkhus joined our main sessions and also came for an additional session which A.Sujin kindly arranged for their benefit at our hotel. They're really interested to listen and appreciate the subtle points too. The keen interest and good questions from the Vietnamese, including those we had not met before who live in Saigon, is amazing and they all say how much they've appreciated the sessions and A.Sujin's extraordinary ability to share the Dhamma. Some have travelled quite far to attend the sessions, including is also one man who has come specially from Singapore. So apart from an early walk for Jon and I, breakfast in our hotel and a fairly quick lunch for some of us, the rest of the day has been listening to A.Sujin (and for Jon and I, helping out a little when she needed a break). Discussion on kamma and vipaka in a lot of detail. It was also stressed that rupas, such as ear-base and rupas all over the body, are produced by kamma, but are not vipaka, as they are not namas. There were questions about ordinary ideas of kamma, such as the fisherman and his bad kamma and the results such as when there is an earthquake, but it was stressed that we have to be very precise and consider different realities in order to understand what kamma and vipaka are. Otherwise it's just our own idea as usual. We talked about how vipaka, such as seeing or hearing now, leads to kilesa (defilements) and that this leads to more kamma which may bring results in turn. A.Sujin talked about vipaka cittas from patisandhi (birth citta), bhavanga cittas throughout life. There was a question about nama as object of nama, because we'd talked a lot about rupas such as visible object as object. I explained about thinking of concepts, different kinds of concepts, thinking about concepts of realities, closer and closer to understanding and directly experiencing realities including namas. Khandhas - more discussion about the meaning - the arising and falling away. Nothing left, like akasa (space). They arise from nowhere, disappear to nowhere, like akasa - nothing more at all. Ignorance cannot understand this. From nothing, something arises and then nothing. How can one own that reality which is conditioned to arise and fall away. If there is no understanding, it's useless to read and listen or follow anything because it doesn't lead to understanding! Metta Sarah ===== #132862 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 10:50 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 6 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Continuing in our room as Jon packs and we both snack on the delicious roasted rice and seaweed snack we've been given! A.Sujin stressed that people think they can make a shortcut to understand the arising and falling away of realities, but that the shortcut is the way of ignorance because there is no understanding of whatever appears. How can it be right understanding? Without right understanding, it's the path to wrong understanding and ignorance. We need to be very truthful. If there is no understanding of what appears, it is not the path. A friend mentioned she had felt fear when she about the details of kamma. Ajahn asked her if fear can be known now? Another reality. Anatta. There was a question about thinking about concepts and it was pointed out that even the Buddha knew what was what and who was who. Dogs and cats know what is there, but not in words. The arising and falling away of each reality conditions shape and form as nimitta, the sign of each reality. Uncountable nimitta even now. There was a question on why the 5 khandhas are classified as such. Everyone would like pleasant feeling now on account of what is experienced through the senses. There is clinging to visible objects, sounds and tastes and everyone wish to be rid of pain. We cannot have pleasant feeling without rupa so rupa is upadana khandha. We can never have enough of all these rupas. Even if there is clinging to particular tastes as we eat, if we hear pleasant music, there is then clinging to that sound as well. Some cling to rupas so much that they peform ill deeds just to have rupas they like, such as by getting rich. Some cling very much to visible objects, some to sounds of music, some to smells such as expensive perfumes and some to tastes. All beings cling, even children have likes and dislikes. Without sanna, there is no memory about those beautiful things. The memory is a very important reality which keeps on remembering everything such as where the good food can be found. So how can anyone let go of attachment to sense objects? (There had been some discussion about "letting go" of attachment by some.) Only an anagami has no more of such attachment. "Don't underestimate the clinging to such objects." It can only gradually be eradicated by right understanding. One knows one's own accumulations better than the other - whatever it is, right understanding can see it as dhamma, anatta. Otherwise there is no eradication of kilesa. Understanding seeing and visible object now is the beginning! As for sankhara khandha, all the cetasikas are important at times. As for vinnana khandha, if there were no vinnana, there would be no clinging, no world, nothing would appear. Now, living in the world of nimitta. With no understanding, nimitta taken for "I" or something all the time. Metta Sarah ===== #132863 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 11:03 pm Subject: RE: RE: Re: Voting jonoabb Hi KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Sarah, Thanks for the voting suggestions, I have followed them except for the 'reply in context' one. If you click on the three dots in the reply box the message to which you are replying appears as it did before - in the good old days! > =============== J: I see you are right about clicking on the 3 dots in the reply box. > =============== (Although it doesn't put ">" at the beginning of each line.) > =============== J: Correct. But that marker had all but disappeared from the messages under the old system anyway. Not like the good old good old days when the marker appeared at the beginning of every line! > =============== I notice other members have been able to post messages with line and paragraph breaks intact, whereas my messages have appeared in a continuous stream. So this is a test to see if that has been fixed. > =============== J: And this one's a test likewise. > =============== KH: snip > =============== J: Ouch. Careful there, KenH. This new format takes some getting used to. Jon #132864 From: Jagkrit Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 jagkrit2012 Dear Phil I have to admit that I myself spent more than 10 years meditate with wrong view. It is not really easy to see that we do the anything wrong among 90% of meditation community. And the result of wrong view meditation was quite tempting. Can not blame any one except wrong accumulation. Unless one carefully consider with honesty, he will one day see something isn't right and that's the first start to the big click. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Sep 4, 2013, at 10:51, philip Coristine wrote: ><. . .> #132865 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 11:17 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 7 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The Vietnamese bhikkhus started the session in our hotel lobby after lunch by saying that they had never heard such a Teaching before (as explained by A.Sujin) and would have continued to 'try' in the circle of ignorance otherwise. Even when coming to see Ajahn, there was still some idea of getting something for themselves. (They were so sincere). A.Sujin: It has to be like this until right understanding completely eradicates silabbataparamasa - the wrong path, the wrong practice, even for those who understand the Teachings. As long as there is the idea of self it must be like this. Even right now there can be an intention to be aware and right understanding can see that it's not right. Right intention is not the 8fold Path. By understanding, there will be the letting go of the intention to do, wanting to have..... So the sotapanna's panna eradicates silabbataparamasa completely. Right understanding will keep one on the right track, so begin again and again so that understanding is firmly conditioned. It takes quite a long time before it is as firm as sacca nana. So don't expect quick results to get rid of the idea of self because it is the function of panna, not self. It needs 10 paramis to develop understanding of any degree. We learn about seeing and visible object. Sometimes there may be thinking about them unexpectedly. This is because of vitakka. Sometimes there is the attending to seeing or visible object even before the moment of thinking. All are in darkness when panna is not there. In truth, all dhammas arise and fall away in darkness. Only one reality can be seen. So there is 'double darkness'! When there is no understanding, there is darkness, ignorance - doesn't know what is there. There is seeing, but no understanding what seeing really is. It arises by conditions, just that and then there are other cittas in darkness, thinking about what appears as visible object, like in a dream. Citta arises and falls away all the time and seems to be light, but when it appears as it is, it's not light. Just seeing, thinking and hearing and other cittas arising and falling away in darkness. Even in darkness, right understanding can understand. So can one say one understands citta? There can be the beginning to understand what is meant by the world - nothing, something, nothing. That which does not arise is nibbana. Before studying, one might think of a place, a beautiful, peaceful place, but it's not a worldly dhamma, it's lokuttara. If the Buddha didn't teach us, no one could know about this. Metta Sarah p.s still haven't finished, can't believe I have so many notes, but need to pack and get ready for our trip to Vung Tau tomorrow. No idea if I'll have internet access there. ====== #132866 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 11:24 pm Subject: trim reminder! dsgmods Dear All, Please remember to trim the messages you're responding to! This is quite easy using the old or the new format. (Another reminder that doesn't include Nina who always does this anyway!) Also, it seems that one can now reply in context using the new format. Jon is using the reply box, clicking on the 3 dots (as Ken H mentioned), then inserting comments in the appropriate part of the message. Jon & Sarah #132867 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heading back to the States kevinf596 Thank you Sarah! Once again, the trip has been great. Refuge! Talk to you soon... Kevin Sarah: "Wishing you a safe trip home, remembering the only refuge is the Dhamma! Looking forward to seeing you again whenever you're able to next visit Bangkok. We were all delighted and inspired by your keen interest and I was glad to spend more time with you. Keep in touch here and keep sharing the Dhamma with us all! Metta Sarah" #132868 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heading back to the States kevinf596 Thank you so much Jagkrit and Chadaporn! It was such a pleasure meeting you both and going to the discussions. Enjoy Vietnam. Talk to you soon.... Best of luck! Kevin Jagkrit: "Dear Kevin We are glad to know you and appreciate your friendliness and contribution in our dhamma discussion. We do hope you have a nice trip back home and look forward to seeing you back here in BKK next year. Anumodhana to your right understanding in dhamma from Than Acharn Sujin discussion. Sincerely, Jagkrit and Chadaporn" #132869 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 12:43 am Subject: Re: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Howard, > --------- > HCW: Ken, what, please, is *your* understanding of the following teaching of the Buddha's, and also those from the Uraga Sutta at the end of this post? > --------- KH: We have had this conversation so many times I am genuinely surprised that you still have to ask. Even so, every time we have this conversation I think a little more about it and I understand it a little more. So thanks for that. ================================ Ken, thank you for your reply! As you likely realize, though, it doesn't satisfy me, as it doesn't address the Buddha's usage of 'real' and 'unreal', which I believe clearly means something more than merely "momentarily appearing or arising," which latter I certainly admit to. When the Buddha asserts unreality, I take it to mean "lack of substance and lack of own being". But, in any case, he DOES distinguish 'real' from 'unreal', applying the latter to all worldly phenomena, and the former only to nibbana. With metta, Howard /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #132870 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 2:26 am Subject: 40 Bhaavanaas-2 htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 40 reflections on sa`nkhaara dhammas. 10 have been posted in 40 Bhaavanaas. The middle 25 are for dukkha-sa~n~naa. The last 5 are reflections on anatta or non-self. "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa... 36. ... anattaa (na atta, not self, not controllable, not follow what one wants) 37. ... pare (stangers who are not friendly, not intimate, not close) 38. ... rittaa (no essence, free of essence, void of essence) 39. ... tucchaa (in vain, free of achievement) 40. ... su~n~naa (no platform to stand, no refuge, useless) With Metta, Htoo Naing #132871 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 8:35 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas-2 sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Thank you for posting these and for your series. I look forward to reading the posts more carefully when we have a chance to catch up. I was also glad to see Han's helpful contributions. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are 40 reflections on sa`nkhaara dhammas. 10 have been posted in 40 Bhaavanaas. The middle 25 are for dukkha-sa~n~naa. The last 5 are reflections on anatta or non-self. #132872 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 10:19 am Subject: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas thomaslaw03 Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, Ken - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Howard, > --------- > HCW: Ken, what, please, is *your* understanding of the following teaching of the Buddha's, and also those from the Uraga Sutta at the end of this post? > --------- KH: We have had this conversation so many times I am genuinely surprised that you still have to ask. Even so, every time we have this conversation I think a little more about it and I understand it a little more. So thanks for that. ================================ Ken, thank you for your reply! As you likely realize, though, it doesn't satisfy me, as it doesn't address the Buddha's usage of 'real' and 'unreal', which I believe clearly means something more than merely "momentarily appearing or arising," which latter I certainly admit to. When the Buddha asserts unreality, I take it to mean "lack of substance and lack of own being". But, in any case, he DOES distinguish 'real' from 'unreal', applying the latter to all worldly phenomena, and the former only to nibbana. With metta, Howard /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) ----------------------------------- Could you indicate what is the Pali term for 'real/true' in the Sutta? I quess it is 'sacca' (?) Thanks. Thomas #132873 From: philip Coristine Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 12:07 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 philofillet Dear Jagkrit, group (p.s to mods te trimming) I still believe what is called "meditation" by the world today is very goid for the brain, I do it for tge beuroligica stimulation tgat studies show it brings. And the factbis it does seem to bring a sense of lightness and well-being during the day. It's very very easy to understand why it is so popular, just like exercise is popular, very similar reasons. So personally, I recommend everyone (as I recommended to Lukas) to "meditate" *if* (big if) they can see it is an exercise rooted in lobha, in hunger for pleasant mental and physical states and is NOT bhavana. If there are conditions for one to be courageous enough without it, great, but we should remember that desire for pleasant mental states is going to feed somewhere. Does it feed on our Dhamma study, on our Dhamma discussion? Phil P.s to mods. I have always been very diligent about trimming overtge years, but I'm afraid it's not possible when I reply on iphone from hotmail box, for some reason the msg I am replying to doesn't come up at the bottom of this box although it appears after the posting My posting will be limited so pls bear with it, thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: jagkrit2012@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 20:08:34 +0700 Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 Dear Phil I have to admit that I myself spent more than 10 years meditate with wrong view. It is not really easy to see that we do the anything wrong among 90% of meditation community. And the result of wrong view meditation was quite tempting. Can not blame any one except wrong accumulation. Unless one carefully consider with honesty, he will one day see something isn't right and that's the first start to the big click. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Sep 4, 2013, at 10:51, philip Coristine wrote: <. . .> #132874 From: philip Coristine Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 12:17 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] trim reminder! philofillet Hi again mods (and Nina below) Wow, just checked my msg to Jagkrit. Not only previous post but whole thread was dragged along!! Obviously that is not acceptable so since as I said in previous mail it is not possible to trim replies from hotmail box on iphone (msg being replied to doesn't appear in posting box/window) and since I am limited to occasionally using Naomi's computer until I buy my own (which I will do as a reward for overcoming online media addiction) I guess it really is time to take a break until that day comes. Probably January, after the K K trip. Especially looking forward to meeting Nina! Wishing you well in your rehab, Nina. You can do it! (Well, paramattha dhamma performing functions can do it.) I will continue to read the msgs in my in box but won't be able to reply. See you in January. Hoping I can meet Jagkrit as well! Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: dsgmods@yahoo.com.hk Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 21:24:31 +0800 Subject: [dsg] trim reminder! Dear All, Please remember to trim the messages you're responding to! This is quite easy using the old or the new format. (Another reminder that doesn't include Nina who always does this anyway!) Also, it seems that one can now reply in context using the new format. Jon is using the reply box, clicking on the 3 dots (as Ken H mentioned), then inserting comments in the appropriate part of the message. Jon & Sarah #132875 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 9:01 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 3 tadaomiyamot... Ni Nina: Yes, we are full of it, living in the world of stories. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Tadao, we all have this and we all need this, the questions about di.t.thi. We accumulated so much. Nina. Op 4 sep 2013, om 12:27 heeft het volgende geschreven: During the dhamma sessions in August, Kun Sujin nailed down me with "nasty" comments/questions about ditthi. She could clear see that this guy was full of maana and ditthi. #132876 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 10:41 pm Subject: RE: RE: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, I'm just testing out - this is my first message sent from the dreaded new format as my second yahoo account has now been converted too. I want to see if I can trim, having clicked on the three dots which brings up the previous message. .... P:> I still believe what is called "meditation" by the world today is very goid for the brain, I do it for tge beuroligica stimulation tgat studies show it brings. And the factbis it does seem to bring a sense of lightness and well-being during the day. It's very very easy to understand why it is so popular, just like exercise is popular, very similar reasons. So personally, I recommend everyone (as I recommended to Lukas) to "meditate" *if* (big if) they can see it is an exercise rooted in lobha, in hunger for pleasant mental and physical states and is NOT bhavana. If there are conditions for one to be courageous enough without it, great, but we should remember that desire for pleasant mental states is going to feed somewhere. Does it feed on our Dhamma study, on our Dhamma discussion? .... S: Look forward to reading Jagkrit's reply. I might even read this one out in the discussion. not sure what the "beuroligica stimulation" is though! ... P:> P.s to mods. I have always been very diligent about trimming overtge years, but I'm afraid it's not possible when I reply on iphone from hotmail box, for some reason the msg I am replying to doesn't come up at the bottom of this box although it appears after the posting My posting will be limited so pls bear with it, thanks. .... S: We know there are tech issues at the moment. Pt may have some suggestions. Meanwhile, just write and we ask everyone else writing in those threads to do the trimming when they write as I'm doing now. Let's check I can set an example and cut off Jagkrit's, yours, Jagkrit's and my posts!!! Metta Sarah ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #132877 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 11:17 pm Subject: RE: Re: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas jonoabb Hi Howard (and KenH) Just chipping in, if I may, on a point of interpretation of a sutta passage. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, Ken - HCW: [The Buddha] DOES distinguish 'real' from 'unreal', applying the latter to all worldly phenomena, and the former only to nibbana. > =============== J: If you are relying for the above assertion on the passage from the Dvayatanupassana Sutta quoted at the end of your message, I think you have not made your case. That passage reads: /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ The statement "Whatever they imagine it to be, it is ... unreal ..." is made in regard to the person who "has self-conceit for what is not-self". Such a person *imagines*, 'This is real.' Obviously when self-conceit is arising, dhammas are not seen as they truly are. The passage is not a statement to the effect that everything other than nibbana is unreal. Jon #132878 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 11:25 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 8 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've moved on to Vang Tau, about 3 hrs from Saigon by the sea. This is where Tam Bach now lives and it's a pleasant place to stay and have discussions. We had a really delicious lunch with Thai and Vietnamese friends at an outside restaurant by the sea - lots of healthy, mostly vegetarian Vietnamese food. I entered the room for our short discussion this afternoon and saw a couple of Westerners. I went to welcome them and only then realized it was Rob K (with a beard) and his daughter, Roxanne. A pleasant surprise visit to join us for a couple of days! It was a short discussion because we were to go up the mountain by cable car afterwards for a late afternoon walk around and break for Ajahn and everyone. There had been some confusion about the two types of kamma condition - sahajata kamma and nanakkahanika kamma. Ajahn Sujin stressed that cetana always urges the citta and other cetasikas it arises with to experience the object. For example, at a moment of seeing, it urges the citta to see. When it arises with akusala cittas, it cannot be akusala without lobha,dosa or moha. When it's strong, it urges them to peform bad deeds. All cittas and cetasikas are sahajata when they arise together, but only cetana is sahajata kamma. It is nanakkhanika kamma when it can produce a result later on. Nana means 'not at the same moment'. So it is of the strength of kamma patha at such times. Otherwise, the kamma just accumulates when it is kusala or akusala by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya. Like in the exampe of the fisherman who intends to catch a fish but is unsuccessful. It's not nanakkhanika kamma. Here's a summary from Nina's book on Conditions: "Kamma is actually cetana cetasika, volition. Cetana arises with each citta and it can therefore be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. Cetana directs the associated dhammas and coordinates their tasks (Atthasalini, Book I, part IV, Ch I, 111). Cetana which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has a double function: it directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and it has the function of "willing" or activity in good and bad deeds. In this last function it is capable of producing the results of good and bad deeds later on. There are two kinds of kamma-condition: conascent kamma-condition and asynchronous kamma-condition. Cetana which arises with each citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajata kamma-paccaya1. The cetana which is kusala or akusala and which can produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition, nanakkhanika kamma-paccaya. <.....> Asynchronous kamma-condition, nanakkhanika kamma-paccaya4, pertains to kusala cetana or akusala cetana which is able of producing later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind. The cetana, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of birth and death, the force of cetana is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the form of vipakacitta and specific rupas of the body5 by way of asynchronous kamma-condition." **** Metta Sarah ====== #132879 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 11:43 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 9 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Just a few more notes from yesterday's discussion: There was a question about when understanding arises and how often. "Wanting....wishing...." Right understanding only when not hoping or wishing. When there's not enough understanding, one listens just for the sake of oneself - YOKE! More discussion about asavas (intoxicants), oghas (floods) and yogas (yokes). The asavas ooze out or seep out after seeing or hearing. No one knows that subtle or fine degree. Only when the lobha, ditthi and avijja are stronger can they be known. It's like they ooze out of the tiniest hole. The anusaya (latent tendencies) are the most subtle of all. Without them, there are no kilesa. The arahat is the kin-asava, no more asava, indicating even these subtle kilesa are eradicated. When there are more kilesa, they are like a flood or ogha. The sea is wider and wider, it becomes more and more difficult to swim to the other side. When the kilesa are yoga or yoke it's like the frame of a picture with one's image inside. One cannot get out of the frame or escape. "How can I?", "I can do..." - at such times of thinking like this, one cannot get out of the frame or escape from the wrong view. Sometimes the kilesa are like samyojana or fetters, like when one is locked in the house and the gates are also locked. The samyojana can be very fine, like the clinging to jhana....locked up. Kilesa let you go further and further, like on a long rope, but always pulled back to be tied up and locked away again. Only the Teachings and right understanding can help one get away. "Awareness shouldn't be the object of attachment, but the object of understanding. The best way is not thinking about it, just understanding!" Metta Sarah ===== #132880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. nilovg Hi Howard, Of course I like toconverse with you. Some delay, in the middle of a project I have to finish. Nina. Op 3 sep 2013, om 23:24 heeft Upasaka@aol.com het volgende geschreven: Thank you for continuing this conversation #132881 From: Jagkrit Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 jagkrit2012 Dear Phil I see your point, Phil. But it is hard for Buddhist communities to accept that meditation is only a mind exercise like other exercises, nothing to do with practice. And even they accepted that. It doesn't, nevertheless, help to understand the right view. It is again self doing something with desire to gain something. If you want to have clear mind, sharp mind or clam mind, there are many ways, many methods of doing it. I think one will find the way as he has accumulated. May be meditation is one as you suggested. However, as we've studied about lobha and wrong view and understood that how it works. It should be useful for us when it arises to be understood. Otherwise, Lobha and wrong view arise in vain. And you are right that even during our dhamma study and discussion, desire and self restlessly play their roles from time to time. So don't waste them. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Sep 5, 2013, at 9:07, philip Coristine wrote: Dear Jagkrit, group (p.s to mods te trimming) I still believe what is called "meditation" by the world today is very goid for the brain, I do it for tge beuroligica stimulation tgat studies show it brings. And the factbis it does seem to bring a sense of lightness and well-being during the day. It's very very easy to understand why it is so popular, just like exercise is popular, very similar reasons. So personally, I recommend everyone (as I recommended to Lukas) to "meditate" *if* (big if) they can see it is an exercise rooted in lobha, in hunger for pleasant mental and physical states and is NOT bhavana. If there are conditions for one to be courageous enough without it, great, but we should remember that desire for pleasant mental states is going to feed somewhere. Does it feed on our Dhamma study, on our Dhamma discussion? Phil P.s to mods. I have always been very diligent about trimming overtge years, but I'm afraid it's not possible when I reply on iphone from hotmail box, for some reason the msg I am replying to doesn't come up at the bottom of this box although it appears after the posting My posting will be limited so pls bear with it, thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: jagkrit2012@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 20:08:34 +0700 Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4 Dear Phil I have to admit that I myself spent more than 10 years meditate with wrong view. It is not really easy to see that we do the anything wrong among 90% of meditation community. And the result of wrong view meditation was quite tempting. Can not blame any one except wrong accumulation. Unless one carefully consider with honesty, he will one day see something isn't right and that's the first start to the big click. Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad O<. . .> #132882 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 3:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Of course I like to converse with you. Some delay, in the middle of a project I have to finish. > Nina. =============================== I so admire you! You are perhaps the most active person I know!! :-) With metta. Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132883 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 3:46 am Subject: Re: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - From the following, I conclude that we see matters in much the same way: We each believe the other is misinterpreting the sutta! ;-)) With metta, Howard _______________________________ Hi Howard (and KenH) Just chipping in, if I may, on a point of interpretation of a sutta passage. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, Ken - HCW: [The Buddha] DOES distinguish 'real' from 'unreal', applying the latter to all worldly phenomena, and the former only to nibbana. > =============== J: If you are relying for the above assertion on the passage from the Dvayatanupassana Sutta quoted at the end of your message, I think you have not made your case. That passage reads: /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ The statement "Whatever they imagine it to be, it is ... unreal ..." is made in regard to the person who "has self-conceit for what is not-self". Such a person *imagines*, 'This is real.' Obviously when self-conceit is arising, dhammas are not seen as they truly are. The passage is not a statement to the effect that everything other than nibbana is unreal. Jon #132884 From: Ken Howard Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 10:37 am Subject: RE: opening posts kenhowardau Hi Azita, Phil and Pt, ------------- > A: is anyone else having difficulties opening posts - newer posts seem to open fairly quickly but older posts won't open altho it states at the top of the page that its 'loading...'? ------------- KH: My biggest shock came when the links in Useful Posts wouldn't work. So we are talking-end-of-the-Earth type shock! But on further inspection I found it was an isolated incident. Some of the really old links do open properly, but a relatively recent link for Dvayatanupassana Sutta, 113512 opens only a blank message box. It shows the correct header but no message! All is not lost, however. If I type 113512 in the "Goto message" box the whole message appears intact. Panic over! Ken H #132885 From: Ken Howard Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 12:46 pm Subject: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Howard,-----> H: Ken, thank you for your reply! As you likely realize, though, it doesn't satisfy me, as it doesn't address the Buddha's usage of 'real' and 'unreal',<. . .> > But, in any case, he DOES distinguish 'real' from 'unreal', applying the latter to all worldly phenomena, and the former only to nibbana.--------------KH: You said to Jon that you and he had different interpretations of this sutta. But that doesn't seem right. I can’t see how your differences of opinion could be a matter of interpretation. It is plainly clear (especially now that it has been pointed out to us) that the Dvayatanupassana Sutta is making a comparison. It is comparing the way worldlings see theworld with the way ariyans see it. In the sutta the words “It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable,” are directed at an imaginary world imagined by a worldling. Those words are not directed at conditioned dhammas. They cannot possibly be interpreted as saying conditioned dhammas are not absolute realities.Therefore, as I said to you a few weeks ago, perhaps now you will remove this sutta from your armoury of anti-paramattha missiles. :-) It doesn't belong there. It is not one of the controversial suttas that might possibly be misinterpreted that way. Or, you can continue to quote it the way you have done – as is your right. The important thing for me is that I remember the Dvayatanupassana Sutta a little faster every time. Eventually I might not need to dive into the UsefulPosts folder for a refresher. :-)Ken H #132886 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 5:16 pm Subject: RE: Re: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, Jon - From the following, I conclude that we see matters in much the same way: We each believe the other is misinterpreting the sutta! ;-)) > =============== J: :-)), :-)). The only on-line version of the sutta I could readily find is the Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation on ati. I am having some difficulty matching the passage you quoted, but I think it may be the following, comprising a pose section followed by a verse section: **************************** "Now, if there are any who ask, 'Would there be the right contemplation of dualities in yet another way?' they should be told, 'There would.' 'How would that be?' 'Whatever is considered as "This is true" by the world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk, is rightly seen as it actually is with right discernment by the noble ones as "This is false"': this is one contemplation. 'Whatever is considered as "This is false" by the world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk, is rightly seen as it actually is with right discernment by the noble ones as "This is true"': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return." That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-gone, the Teacher, said further: See the world, together with its devas, conceiving not-self to be self. Entrenched in name & form, they conceive that 'This is true.' In whatever terms they conceive it it turns into something other than that, and that's what's false about it: changing, it's deceptive by nature. Undeceptive by nature is Unbinding: that the noble ones know as true. They, through breaking through to the truth, free from hunger, are totally unbound. **************************** [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html] The passage you quoted is I think from the verse section (see the refercne to 'unbinding'). Assuming this to be the same part of the sutta, it gives a somewhat different picture to your quoted passage, wouldn't you agree? Jon HCW: [The Buddha] DOES distinguish 'real' from 'unreal', applying the latter to all worldly phenomena, and the former only to nibbana. /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ #132887 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 10:04 pm Subject: RE: opening posts gazita2002 Hallo pt, thanks, tried this and it worked - yeehaa! and now I notice the 'conversations' are coming up more readable, kinda can see where to go. Maybe all it takes is a little patience, courage and good cheer :) azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Azita and Phil, > A: is anyone else having difficulties opening posts - newer posts seem to open fairly quickly but older posts won't open altho it states at the top of the page that its 'loading...'? cheers, azita p: Not sure if this is the same thing - what I often get is that the new interface basically seems to stop responding to clicks - you click on a link, or another message, or a button, etc - it says it's Loading... but nothing happens. I think the issue here has to do with Javascript - basically it's the new thing that Yahoo is implementing that's supposed to make everything faster, which it usually does. I think the way it works is that it loads a whole lot of stuff, so that when you click on something, it's already loaded, so it seems to open up very fast. However, if it's not loaded properly in the first place, then clicking on things just doesn't work, since the links didn't load properly, so to speak. The solution - click Refresh. But not the Refresh button in the Yahoo interface (the looped arrow button), but Refresh in the browser itself - usually at the very top of the window next to the address bar. As for older posts loading slower - don't know, maybe they need to be converted to Neo so it's taking a bit of time. Best wishes pt #132888 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 10:24 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, You sent me the following question to ask A.Sujin: L: "Why dosa is not conditioned by arammana upanissiya paccaya? Since I am more angry of a particular object. If there is dosa to hippy, since there is any hippy there, dosa dislikes this and accumulates more and more hate to hippy." (I explained to the group that paccaya means condition, arammana means object and upanissaya means decisive support). A.Sujin: When you dislike anything, would you like to get it? It's not the desirable object. We always desire to get that which we like - there are always conditions to try to get that. That's the meaning of arammanupanissaya paccaya - object + strong support. In a day, everyone just wants to have just that which one likes so much such as when hearing or listening to the Teachings, your arammanna upanissaya is for what? Sarah: pa~n~naa. **** S: Please send any more qus you'd like us to raise. Metta Sarah ====== #132890 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 11:11 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 11 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, After a delicious breakfast, another full day of discussion. Rob K and his daughter Roxanne joined us in the morning, but had to leave to get back to Bangkok at noon. We were also glad to see one of the monks from Saigon who had come to the discussions there and shown such interest. We probably have about 40 people joining each of these sessions and we have a more informal arrangement around a table in a smaller room. It's all very convenient for us as it's held in the same hotel where we're staying. The bhikkhu asked the first question today. He mentioned that he agrees with A.Sujin, but his students and lay-people who visit him follow a practice as taught by Burmese sayadaws to reduce defilements which they find useful. So how is what we are now learning useful for daily life? A.Sujin: Is there seeing now? If we don't talk about it can there be any understanding of not self? Is it you or no one there at the moment of seeing? If you would like to try and understand something else which is not now, it's impossible because it hasn't happened. If we read the Teachings, they are all about seeing, hearing, thinking and so on, which is life. Otherwise, what is life? If we don't study very carefully and respectfully, how can we understand who the Buddha was? Didn't he know the truth? He knew everything, even just now. What is real is just now. Is it easy to understand seeing, hearing now? It takes aeons to understand reality arising and falling away, not self. Each word in the Teachings is about now. Every word concerns now. We've heard a lot all over the world about practice. What does it mean? What is it? Right understanding begins with understanding what it is, otherwise it's only thinking one understands. Is it the development of understanding of whatever appears anytime? If not, it is not the understanding of the Teachings. It is ignorance. Metta Sarah ===== #132891 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 6, 2013 11:42 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon & Vung Tau 12 w/ A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, An interesting exchange between A.Sujin and a Vietnamese lady who hadn't spoken before. **** A.Sujin: Is practice doing something? ans: Controlling the mind, meditation. AS: How can you control anything? ans: We can control, not let defilements come up. AS: Is there defilement now at the moment of not understanding? ans: (along the lines of it being harder now, whilst meditating no attachment or aversion in the mind) AS: What is mind? ans: Mind is thinking and ideas. AS: When no thinking, is there mind? ans: Yes. AS: What is it? ans: Pure mind, original mind. AS: Where is that? ans: Within us and at that time one is with the universe. AS: What is universe? ans: (a vague idea) Everything around us in the universe. AS: Is universe hard? ans: Universe is soft. AS: (lifting the cloth on the table) - So the soft thing is universe? ans: One component. AS: What is the other component? ans: Earth, water, fire, wind and akasa (space). AS: Is there earth now? ans: Yes. AS: Does it belong to you? ans: Yes AS: Does it arise? ans: It arises and passes away. AS: How to experience that? ans: Each person experiences for oneself. Hard to explain... AS: Can earth be experienced? ans: (no answer) AS: What is taken for earth that is experienced? ans: Mind. AS: Earth is mind? You mean mind is hard? ans: Mind is soft. AS: What is soft is very little hardness. Is hardness appearing? ans: Yes AS: What is that which experiences hardness? ans: (no answer) AS:Are there two kinds of reality at the moment of touching? ans: Yes AS: One is hard, one is the experiencing of hardness, otherwise it doesn't appear. There is no one at the moment of experiencing and that which is hard doesn't experience hardness. It can appear only when there is touching. Is it you who touches or you that is hard? ans: Just touching. AS: But hardness appears at the moment of touching. So that which is experienced - is it you or hardness? ans: Both. AS: Hardness touched is you? Is the microphone you? ans: Yes. AS: The table - is it you/ ans: No. AS: Why is the microphone you but not the table? ans: Not the microphone. AS: So nothing can be taken for you. So the experiencing is real, right? So at any moment of experiencing, it's not you at all, no matter it's touching, seeing or thinking? ans: Yes. AS: That's the Teaching of the Buddha - no one at all, only the experiencing and that which is experienced at anytime. There is no one in this room, only the experiencing and that which is experienced from moment to moment. The Teachings are now. So the understanding starts from listening, considering, pariyatti. When there's no understanding, it's "I see, I hear, I think." ***** Metta Sarah (p.s. from my scribbled notes - not exact quotes.) ====== #132892 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 12:11 am Subject: RE: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 11 with A.Sujin tadaomiyamot... Hi Sarah, Basically, it's a battle between Self and Non-self, isn't it? (I've made all my travel arrangements, arriving in Bangkok on the 8th and leaving there on the 24th.) See you soon. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Friends, After a delicious breakfast, another full day of discussion. Rob K and his daughter Roxanne joined us in the morning, but had to leave to get back to Bangkok at noon. We were also glad to see one of the monks from Saigon who had come to the discussions there and shown such interest. We probably have about 40 people joining each of these sessions and we have a more informal arrangement around a table in a smaller room. It's all very convenient for us as it's held in the same hotel where we're staying. The bhikkhu asked the first question today. He mentioned that he agrees with A.Sujin, but his students and lay-people who visit him follow a practice as taught by Burmese sayadaws to reduce defilements which they find useful. So how is what we are now learning useful for daily life? A.Sujin: Is there seeing now? If we don't talk about it can there be any understanding of not self? Is it you or no one there at the moment of seeing? If you would like to try and understand something else which is not now, it's impossible because it hasn't happened. If we read the Teachings, they are all about seeing, hearing, thinking and so on, which is life. Otherwise, what is life? If we don't study very carefully and respectfully, how can we understand who the Buddha was? Didn't he know the truth? He knew everything, even just now. What is real is just now. Is it easy to understand seeing, hearing now? It takes aeons to understand reality arising and falling away, not self. Each word in the Teachings is about now. Every word concerns now. We've heard a lot all over the world about practice. What does it mean? What is it? Right understanding begins with understanding what it is, otherwise it's only thinking one understands. Is it the development of understanding of whatever appears anytime? If not, it is not the understanding of the Teachings. It is ignorance. Metta Sarah ===== #132893 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 12:27 am Subject: Re: RE: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - You wrote: The passage you quoted is I think from the verse section (see the refercne to 'unbinding'). Assuming this to be the same part of the sutta, it gives a somewhat different picture to your quoted passage, wouldn't you agree? ------------------------------- HCW: Thank you, Jon! Yes, I do agree. Actually, I don't know where I got my "version" from! ------------------------------ Jon ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] trim reminder! nilovg Dear Phil, thanks. I need encouragements like this. Only three more months to train is not long: steps, stairs, etc. Equilibrium. Exercises for that, standing on one leg. Nina. Op 5 sep 2013, om 04:17 heeft philip Coristine het volgende geschreven: Especially looking forward to meeting Nina! Wishing you well in your rehab, Nina. You can do it! (Well, paramattha dhamma performing functions can do it.) #132895 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heading back to the States kevinf596 "Heading back to the States" Hi everyone! Back hoe in the States (for now). I feel good but a little bit of jet-lag. Talk to y'all soon .. Kevin #132896 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 11:33 am Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Heading back to the States jagkrit2012 Dear Kevin I also backed from Saigon yesterday. We had very good dhamma discusssion there. You can continue to listen to live discussion in Vungtoa during 9-11 and 16-18 untill Sep 9 and 8.30-10 at Sep 10. I think during jet-lag you can listen to live discussion because the timing is in Asia. And it's good to hear you get back safely. Sincerely, Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: "Heading back to the States" Hi everyone! Back hoe in the States (for now). I feel good but a little bit of jet-lag. Talk to y'all soon .. Kevin #132897 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 11:45 am Subject: RE: RE: Re: [dsg] Heading back to the States kevinf596 Hi Jagkrit, J: "Dear Kevin I also backed from Saigon yesterday. We had very good dhamma discusssion there. You can continue to listen to live discussion in Vungtoa during 9-11 and 16-18 untill Sep 9 and 8.30-10 at Sep 10. I think during jet-lag you can listen to live discussion because the timing is in Asia. And it's good to hear you get back safely. Sincerely, Jagkrit" Kevin: Thank you Jagkrit. Happy to hear you made it home safely. I am sure the discussions were amazing. I will see if I can catch the live broadcast! Thanks. Talk to you soon. Sincerely, Kevin #132898 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 3:53 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Heading back to the States tadaomiyamot... Hi Kevin, It was nice meeting you. See you again sometime in the (near) future. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: "Heading back to the States" Hi everyone! Back hoe in the States (for now). I feel good but a little bit of jet-lag. Talk to y'all soon .. Kevin #132899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 3 sep 2013, om 23:24 heeft Upasaka@aol.com het volgende geschreven: HCW: Viewing a visible object - what I would call "a sight" - as a separate entity is also a matter of thinking and reifying, In my view, whereas it is actually, as I believe the Buddha teaches, merely a fleeting element of experience, and not "a reality". ---------------------------- ----------------------------- >N: We can only learn more about conditioned elements. The word conditioned implies as we agree. It is real, I mean, it has a characteristic that can be directly experienced, without having to use words. > Thus, conditioned dhammas have to be known as they are, no other way to nibbaana. ----------- The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. ----------------------------- HCW: And what is that nature we must come to know about these dhammas? I believe it is exactly the tilakkhana, not the alleged "reality" of these dhammas. -------------------------------- N: Perhaps we have to go more into the meaning of conditioned. There is seeing now. This could not arise if there were no eyesense and colour or visible object. Eyesense and visible object are among the conditions for seeing and they are fleeting elements, but still, not imaginary. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Kindred sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch IV, § 85, Void): Then the Venerable Ä€nanda came to see the Exalted One... Seated at one side the Venerable Ä€nanda said to the Exalted One: “ â€Void is the world! Void is the world!’ is the saying, lord. Pray, lord, how far does this saying go?” “Because the world is void of the self, Ä€nanda, or of what belongs to the self, therefore is it said â€Void is the world.’ And what, Ä€nanda, is void of the self or of what belongs to the self? The eye is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Visible object is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Seeing-consciousness is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Eye-contact is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling which arises owing to eye-contact is void of the self or of what belongs to the self.” (The same is said with regard to the other doorways.) “That is why, Ä€nanda, it is said â€Void is the world.’ ” We read in Kh Sujin's Survey: N: Would the Buddha mention time and again visible object, sound, etc. as among the conditions for sense-cognitions if they were mere nothings? As to knowing the tilakka.na, there are many degrees of penetrating these. They are characteristics of seeing, hearing, etc. They are not something we can talk of in general, in an abstract way. Thus, first we have to know more clearly the very elements which have the tilakka.na. What makes them dukkha? their arising and falling away. But, before their impermanence can be realized very precisely, a great deal of understanding of these elements has to be developed. Seeing is not thinking, seeing is not visible object, but we are very confused and ignorant. When seeing appears there must also be that which is seen, and they have different characteristics. Sati can be aware of only one of them at a time. But since we confuse thinking and sati it seems that they appear together. The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. ------------------------------ HCW: The clinging to self is last to go, if I'm not mistaken. ------------------------------ N: The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. The sotaapanna eradicates clinging to the wrong view of self, but not attachment to sense objects. This is only eradicated at the thrird stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. This is very understandable. Detachment from objects grows very slowly, there are many degrees. As understanding develops, also detachment from the object develops. ------ Nina. #132900 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 7:36 pm Subject: Photos during discussion in Saigon jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah, Nina and friends I've uploaded pictures of TA Sujin and friends during our discussion in Saigon last week. Please click "photo" in the main page. I do hope you joyful with this wholesome events. And releasing some missing of our friends until we meet in Jan 2014. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132901 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 10:09 pm Subject: RE: Photos during discussion in Saigon sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, >J: I've uploaded pictures of TA Sujin and friends during our discussion in Saigon last week. Please click "photo" in the main page. I do hope you joyful with this wholesome events. .... S: Great! Much appreciated! Just one thing missing - a pic with you and your wife, Khun Chadaporn! Hope you can add this one. We miss you both in Vang Tau at the excellent discussions. Here, we re-arranged the room so we could all sit around the table together informally and it continues to be very lively. People 'fighting' for a microphone to ask questions. Stirring up a 'hornet's nest' today of all the views and methods and controvesial topics.....just like at DSG!! Jon's evening noodles have just arrived, so need to break... Metta Sarah ===== #132902 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 10:45 pm Subject: RE: Photos during discussion in Saigon jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah Sorry for missing me and my wife because we were in the back of the camera :) I listened live broadcast Vang Tau discussion. It was amazing. Everyone seemed to be very enthusiastic, different from Saigon. And the topics were so various and as you mentioned we had friends who had their view of arguing. Very interesting but hard work for speakers and translator. Enjoy your pho, Sarah and John. Keep on energy for tomorrow discussion. Anumodhana Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Jagkrit, >J: I've uploaded pictures of TA Sujin and friends during our discussion in Saigon last week. Please click "photo" in the main page. I do hope you joyful with this wholesome events. .... S: Great! Much appreciated! Just one thing missing - a pic with you and your wife, Khun Chadaporn! Hope you can add this one. We miss you both in Vang Tau at the excellent discussions. Here, we re-arranged the room so we could all sit around the table together informally and it continues to be very lively. People 'fighting' for a microphone to ask questions. Stirring up a 'hornet's nest' today of all the views and methods and controvesial topics.....just like at DSG!! Jon's evening noodles have just arrived, so need to break... Metta Sarah ===== #132903 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 11:22 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 12 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The discussions are all very lively with no shortage of questions and comments - many related to methods, techniques, short-cuts and user-guides! In other words, desperately seeking a self that can follow a practice rather than just understanding present conditioned dhammas! Comments about the difficulties of understanding and again it was stressed that this is praising the Buddha's qualities and wisdom in particular. The first question this afternoon was about meditation. A.Sujin stressed that wanting to understand is not understanding. It hinders. Attachment is rooted in ignorance. If one forgets about meditation and results, what about now? Forget about meditation. We had discussion about sacca nana - the well-established truth, the firm intellectual understanding of the 4 Noble Truths, the first being the arising and falling away of reality now. Kicca nana is the function of higher understanding, not just intellectual understanding and kata nana is the direct realisation of the Truths. In other words, pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. It was stressed again that knowing how many cittas there are and counting numbers of this and that is delirious thinking, not pariyatti. Pariyatti must be sacca nana when firm, not just reading without any understanding of realities now. All pariyatti concerns realities now. There was a good question on saddha and whether when it's only intellectual understanding this isn't just blind faith. When it's a teaching which doesn't condition direct understanding, it's blind belief. Vacca sacca - true words. These never change because of the Buddha's enlightenment. He was the best friend to all and gave us the highest gift. A Vietnamese friend mentioned the account of Ambapali, the beautiful courtesan who heard the Buddha and gave a park to the Sangha. She became a bhikkhuni and reflecting on the impermanence of the body became enlightened. So it seemed to our friend that thinking about concepts leads to enlightenment and after that understanding grows. We stressed that there has to be the direct understanding of the 4 Noble Truths for enlightenment to occur and this led to a long discussion about the Maha Satipatthana Sutta and what is meant by "mindfulness of the body" and so on. The rupas experienced are mistakenly taken for the body. The entire sutta is about the understanding of all kinds of dhammas. There was discussion about how quickly lobha can follow seeing in the eye-door process before thinking. Like last night, we woke up when we heard the thunder. Aversion arises before there's any idea what the sound is. Similarly, when it's a sweet sound, attachment can arise before there's any idea of whether it's music or a voice or anything else. A friend's mother likes to recite "namo tasso bhagavato...." whenever she has some difficulty or good fortune. Is this right? It depends on the citta and only panna can know. There can be reflecting on the Buddha's virtues with kusala cittas or just reciting with ignorance and wishing for results with attachment. Time-frames and how..... Forget about "how?"! Death and kamma. There was lots of confusion. The kusala or akusala before death is conditioned by past kamma, not by any selection. There can be death anytime now. The object of that kusala or akusala will be the same object of the patisandhi citta and bhavanga cittas of the next life. After a sense door process, the following mind door process will have the same object. At the time of death, when there is cuti citta cutting short the process, the following patisandhi citta will have the same object as the previous kusala or akusala cittas, just like a mind-door process would have. If it is akusala kamma before death then the patisandhi citta will be akusala vipaka and vice versa, with that arammana experienced by the kusala or akusala cittas. *** Metta Sarah ===== #132904 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 11:29 pm Subject: RE: RE: Photos during discussion in Saigon sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >J: I listened live broadcast Vang Tau discussion. It was amazing. Everyone seemed to be very enthusiastic, different from Saigon. And the topics were so various and as you mentioned we had friends who had their view of arguing. Very interesting but hard work for speakers and translator. ... S: Yes, I think the whole day's discussion was amazing. Vietnamese friends are bolder now, ready to argue their points and everyone is in very good humour! The time went really quickly this afternoon with lots of good (and tough) qus, even on-line qus from monks coming through - really a lot of fun! Highly recommended live discussion for anyone who'd like to tune in, 9-11 a.m. and 3.30- 5.30 p.m. (Saigon or Bangkok time), though we usually start the afternoon session early and finish late! Jagkrit, perhaps you can give the link again for anyone to listen in. It's really just like if all the active members of DSG were gathered together in a room around a large table, with all the different understandings from what's been read and heard! Metta Sarah ===== #132905 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 11:32 pm Subject: RE: RE: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 11 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Hi Tadao, >T: Hi Sarah, Basically, it's a battle between Self and Non-self, isn't it? ... S: You got it! See you soon. Metta Sarah ===== #132906 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 11:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Just a comment or two inserted below in context: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 3 sep 2013, om 23:24 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > > HCW: Viewing a visible object - what I would call "a sight" - as a separate entity is also a matter of thinking and reifying, In my view, whereas it is actually, as I believe the Buddha teaches, merely a fleeting element of experience, and not "a reality". > > ---------------------------- > > ----------------------------- > > >N: We can only learn more about conditioned elements. The word conditioned implies as we agree. It is real, I mean, it has a characteristic that can be directly experienced, without having to use words. > > > > > Thus, conditioned dhammas have to be known as they are, no other way to nibbaana. > > > ----------- > > The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. > > > > ----------------------------- > > HCW: And what is that nature we must come to know about these dhammas? I believe it is exactly the tilakkhana, not the alleged "reality" of these dhammas. > > -------------------------------- > > > N: Perhaps we have to go more into the meaning of conditioned. There is seeing now. This could not arise if there were no eyesense and colour or visible object. Eyesense and visible object are among the conditions for seeing and they are fleeting elements, but still, not imaginary. ----------------------------------- HCW: My view: Not imaginary as the fleeting elements of experience they are. They are actually experienced. But they are imaginary when viewed as independent, separate realities. ------------------------------------ > > We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Kindred sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch IV, § 85, Void): > Then the Venerable Ä€nanda came to see the Exalted One... Seated at one side the Venerable Ä€nanda said to the Exalted One: “ â€Void is the world! Void is the world!’ is the saying, lord. Pray, lord, how far does this saying go?” > “Because the world is void of the self, Ä€nanda, or of what belongs to the self, therefore is it said â€Void is the world.’ And what, Ä€nanda, is void of the self or of what belongs to the self? > The eye is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Visible object is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Seeing-consciousness is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Eye-contact is void of the self or of what belongs to the self. Pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling which arises owing to eye-contact is void of the self or of what belongs to the self.” (The same is said with regard to the other doorways.) “That is why, Ä€nanda, it is said â€Void is the world.’ ” > > We read in Kh Sujin's Survey: > > N: Would the Buddha mention time and again visible object, sound, etc. as among the conditions for sense-cognitions if they were mere nothings? ------------------------------- HCW: They are not mere nothings, because they are elements of experience. But that is all they are, and our viewing them as self-existent "realities" is where we go wrong, IMO. We indeed need to know their true nature as 1) conditions for suffering (when ignorance reifies them and craving for their appearing or disappearing arises), 2) as fleeting, and 3) as lacking in self. Were direct awareness of this tripartite emptiness be already in effect, there would be no need for their frequent mention. When one truly knows that the "snake" is but a coiled rope, no further attention need be paid. -------------------------------- > > As to knowing the tilakka.na, there are many degrees of penetrating these. They are characteristics of seeing, hearing, etc. They are not something we can talk of in general, in an abstract way. Thus, first we have to know more clearly the very elements which have the tilakka.na. What makes them dukkha? their arising and falling away. But, before their impermanence can be realized very precisely, a great deal of understanding of these elements has to be developed. Seeing is not thinking, seeing is not visible object, but we are very confused and ignorant. When seeing appears there must also be that which is seen, and they have different characteristics. Sati can be aware of only one of them at a time. But since we confuse thinking and sati it seems that they appear together. > > The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. > > > > ------------------------------ > > HCW: The clinging to self is last to go, if I'm not mistaken. > > ------------------------------ > > > N: The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. > The sotaapanna eradicates clinging to the wrong view of self, but not attachment to sense objects. This is only eradicated at the thrird stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. > This is very understandable. Detachment from objects grows very slowly, there are many degrees. As understanding develops, also detachment from the object develops. > > ------ > Nina. ================================== Nina, thank you very much for your kind post. With metta, Howard /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #132907 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 7:45 am Subject: RE: e-notes from Saigon & Vung Tau 12 w/ A.Sujin gazita2002 Hallo Sarah, thanking you for the posts from Vietnam; I'm glad so many people are having the opportunity to listen and question the Buddha's words. I'm impressed with A.S. energy and patience, Elle came and stayed with me for a couple of days, which was really nice. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Friends, An interesting exchange between A.Sujin and a Vietnamese lady who hadn't spoken before. **** A.Sujin: Is practice doing something? ans: Controlling the mind, meditation. AS: How can you control anything? ans: We can control, not let defilements come up. AS: Is there defilement now at the moment of not understanding? ans: (along the lines of it being harder now, whilst meditating no attachment or aversion in the mind) AS: What is mind? ans: Mind is thinking and ideas. AS: When no thinking, is there mind? ans: Yes. AS: What is it? ans: Pure mind, original mind. AS: Where is that? ans: Within us and at that time one is with the universe. AS: What is universe? ans: (a vague idea) Everything around us in the universe. AS: Is universe hard? ans: Universe is soft. AS: (lifting the cloth on the table) - So the soft thing is universe? ans: One component. AS: What is the other component? ans: Earth, water, fire, wind and akasa (space). AS: Is there earth now? ans: Yes. AS: Does it belong to you? ans: Yes AS: Does it arise? ans: It arises and passes away. AS: How to experience that? ans: Each person experiences for oneself. Hard to explain... AS: Can earth be experienced? ans: (no answer) AS: What is taken for earth that is experienced? ans: Mind. AS: Earth is mind? You mean mind is hard? ans: Mind is soft. AS: What is soft is very little hardness. Is hardness appearing? ans: Yes AS: What is that which experiences hardness? ans: (no answer) AS:Are there two kinds of reality at the moment of touching? ans: Yes AS: One is hard, one is the experiencing of hardness, otherwise it doesn't appear. There is no one at the moment of experiencing and that which is hard doesn't experience hardness. It can appear only when there is touching. Is it you who touches or you that is hard? ans: Just touching. AS: But hardness appears at the moment of touching. So that which is experienced - is it you or hardness? ans: Both. AS: Hardness touched is you? Is the microphone you? ans: Yes. AS: The table - is it you/ ans: No. AS: Why is the microphone you but not the table? ans: Not the microphone. AS: So nothing can be taken for you. So the experiencing is real, right? So at any moment of experiencing, it's not you at all, no matter it's touching, seeing or thinking? ans: Yes. AS: That's the Teaching of the Buddha - no one at all, only the experiencing and that which is experienced at anytime. There is no one in this room, only the experiencing and that which is experienced from moment to moment. The Teachings are now. So the understanding starts from listening, considering, pariyatti. When there's no understanding, it's "I see, I hear, I think." ***** Metta Sarah (p.s. from my scribbled notes - not exact quotes.) ====== #132908 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 8:56 am Subject: RE: RE: Voting epsteinrob Hi pt - let me just say that I hate and despise the new format in every aspect that I can think of. I find it infinitely more difficult to skim through message headers in the main list to find ones addressed to me, as now the greeting sentences are not lined up but skewed over to the end of the topic title, which are all of different lengths. And replies no longer mark the previous message in any way. In order to intersperse comments it is now necessary to mark the old comments as belonging to the former post before adding your own remarks. It seems to me that yahoogroups, which had a much better format than googlegroups has stupidly adopted the confusing and arduous chaotic format of googlegroups, proving my theory that if there is any innovation any web company, group or app can come up with to make the user experience worse, they will eventually do it for no good reason. Google bought the old deja system, which had a great hierarchical index that would allow you to look down any thread historically and pick the point in the sequence that you wanted to read, or read through the entire thing easily with an excellent map. When google bought it they trashed the hierarchical map and set up the current anarchic jumble of threads where the latest thread shows up first on the list and then arranges the other threads randomly based on who has answered last. If you want to expand the messages to read them all, as you noted, you have to manually click up each hidden quote, etc. Now yahoogroups is emulating the same inconvenient mush, for no reason at all that I can discern, since it was previously working perfectly well. Usenet, the old message system of the pre-internet, still has the great old clear boxy frames for messages and very clear thread and post organization. You can read individual messages by most recent date -- which is the best organization for me -- or if you do want to follow a thread, you can organize by thread with a single click, or by poster, etc., for as long as you like and then go back to the date organization. Unfortunately less and less carriers are making usenet accessible, and it is less frequently used, but still has its followers. It seems that as soon as anyone gets their hands on a system and has a chance to change it, they ruin it. Thanks for listening to the above complaints. I am trying to continue reading and posting to dsg with the new format, but I find it extremely confusing and discouraging. The old clear headers, thread organization, and clear frames for reading and composing were much much much much better. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = <. . .> #132909 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 8:58 am Subject: RE: RE: Voting epsteinrob BTW, when I sent the last message, I got a note saying that "Your message has been successfully sent and WOULD be delivered to recipients." Is that a conditional promise, or just a grammatical error? I wonder how the new system is being designed... ...Getting paranoid... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #132910 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 9:00 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: Voting epsteinrob Yikes - hi again pt - I don't know if yahoo is listening in, but it looks like they just fixed the message list format so that all the greetings are lined up for each message the way they used to be. I must be really confused. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #132911 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 11:12 am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Heading back to the States kevinf596 Dear Tadao, Your wrote: "Hi Kevin, It was nice meeting you. See you again sometime in the (near) future. tadao " It was great meeting you too! Can't wait to see you again! I hope we get to meet before too long. Kevin #132912 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 3:15 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: Voting ptaus1 Hi RobE, RE: I find it infinitely more difficult to skim through message headers in the main list to find ones addressed to me, as now the greeting sentences are not lined up but skewed over to the end of the topic title, which are all of different lengths. p: Maybe try the "Slim" button in Messages view (So Conversations > Messages, not Topics) - it will display one line only, but the greeting will be right next to the topic name. RE: And replies no longer mark the previous message in any way. In order to intersperse comments it is now necessary to mark the old comments as belonging to the former post before adding your own remarks. p: This is one of those things that can't be solved elegantly ona forum of this type. I posted an idea on the feedback page about it. See if it suits you and vote. Will post the link in next message. RE: It seems to me that yahoogroups, which had a much better format than googlegroups has stupidly adopted the confusing and arduous chaotic format of googlegroups... p: Imo all groups are just not that good for proper forum-style communication, but we have what we have. Most of it is probably just a matter of getting used to. If not, then we have to complain - vote and leave comments for the Yahoo team. So far they've been responsive. Best wishes pt #132913 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 3:42 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: Voting ptaus1 Hi all, Could I please ask those of you who don't mind voting, or have voted already, to also add your comments to the topics you've voted for. It seems the number of comments also makes a difference to Yahoo, in addition to the number of votes, regarding whether to address the issue. The comment box is just under the idea that you vote for. Thanks. I've posted two more ideas to the feedback forum - one for Sarah to increase the size of the Reply window and one for RobE that might help with quoting: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403490-reply-window-is-too-small http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403525-quote-button-please-add-it-to-the-reply-editor And please leave your comments for the Expand messages issue, which is hasn't been addressed by Yahoo: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-put-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4358793-expand-messages http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4369817-the-expand-messages-function-of-the-group-websit Thanks Best wishes pt #132914 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 3:53 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting ptaus1 Hi all, Sorry, let me try those two new links again: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403490-reply-window-is-too-small http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403525-quote-button-please-add-it-to-the-reply-editor Best wishes pt #132915 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 4:10 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Yes, please give votes for these issues and the ones on expanding messages which Pt has given links for if you haven't done so. I agree that adding comments helps. It's not too late! If you used up all your votes on other issues which got large numbers of votes anyway, please consider retrieving some of those votes (easy to do so) and re-casting them for these issues which need to get yahoo's attention asap. Thanks for all the support ... http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403490-reply-window-is-too-small http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403525-quote-button-please-add-it-to-the-reply-editor #132916 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 9:56 am Subject: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas szmicio Hi there, >A.Sujin: When you dislike anything, would you like to get it? It's not >the desirable object. We always desire to get that which we like - >there are always conditions to try to get that. That's the meaning of >arammanupanissaya paccaya - object + strong support. >In a day, everyone just wants to have just that which one likes so much >such as when hearing or listening to the Teachings, your arammanna >upanissaya is for what? L: No point in answering this Ajahn. Since I have no chanda to dhamma anymore and no saddha, not shelter in Dhamma anymore. This is very bad to me, but I cannot make them arise, to come back...In this world also no pleasantness to me at all. All just useless and pointless. nothing can stay to give a little satisfaction. I dont like even speak with people, what they say to me what they think, just because of the feeling. All this personality rises from feeling. How they are, how they behave, what they says, only conditioned from feeling. That's why I dislike. what shall I like? A mental delusional imaginations, originating from vedana. Pointless... With no metta, Lukas p.s this is why Buddha prised metta so much, to do not give a chance to rise for such unwholsome mind like this, when person develops in dhammma and everything goes like tina, midha and disliking etc. Metta could fix that all, so right understanding can see much better, otherwise this very dongerous mind. like a dead end. But no one gets this since everyone feels good. Until one feels bad, than whole personality, whole thinkin, everything changes while vedana changes. #132917 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 4:27 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: Voting jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: RE: BTW, when I sent the last message, I got a note saying that "Your message has been successfully sent and WOULD be delivered to recipients." Is that a conditional promise, or just a grammatical error? > =============== J: This use of 'would' is common in certain non-native speakers of English ... > =============== I wonder how the new system is being designed... ...Getting paranoid... > =============== J: Young geeks rule. Earnest discussion is cool NOT! Jon PS Thanks for your comments on the new format. #132918 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting nichiconn co-neo-ranters, i'm all for making quoting more difficult. read a post or a conversation, give it some consideration as a whole and answer. stop interrupting a post every other line or so. or repeating blocks of text you don't even comment on... maybe a whole dissertation just to say "right on" or "bullshit". just say it and be done & shut up until a godly mind moves you to speak or write again. if you write from another voice, don't sign off with metta. or at most, admit it's barely a molehill... that generally, you are not at all that kind, but some other. with me, it's more in ignorance (not so much of concepts, tho). connie --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi all, Sorry, let me try those two new links again: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403490-reply-window-is-too-small http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403525-quote-button-please-add-it-to-the-reply-editor Best wishes pt #132919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 8 sep 2013, om 01:56 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: But no one gets this since everyone feels good. Until one feels bad, than whole personality, whole thinkin, everything changes while vedana changes. ----- N Not right, Lukas. Feeling changes all the time and this shows that no one can rule over it. It is non-self, beyond control. Today you feel bad, but tomorrow the feeling of today will be yesterday. Of no importance. Nina. #132920 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 10:13 pm Subject: RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, L: No point in answering this Ajahn. Since I have no chanda to dhamma anymore and no saddha, not shelter in Dhamma anymore. This is very bad to me, but I cannot make them arise, to come back...In this world also no pleasantness to me at all. .... S: I read out the entire message to A.Sujin, including the part of her reply and all your comments: *** AS: Still the idea of "I". Concerning "I" all the time.... Who?.... Without the Teachings, life goes on with ignorance and not understanding. **** S: Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to ask or say. Metta Sarah p.s For others - some of us felt rather concerned when we read the message, but when I read it out to A.Sujin, there was no sign of worry or unpleasant feeling as I mentioned to her. "What's the use of having unpleasantness - aksuala." We then had a little discusson about the brahma viharas - no unpleasant feeling or concern with worry when there is metta or karuna. ======= #132921 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 8:55 am Subject: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas philofillet Hi Lukas I think you're "with no metta" sign off shows uou arecstill connected to the Dhamma. I think the point of the Dhamma is not to have metta, it is to understand whatever reality arises and that underatanding will come with more and more detachment. As for me there is "no metta" and even hatred ablot #132922 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 9:34 am Subject: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas philofillet Hi Lukas Your "with no metta" shows youvare connected to and understand Dhamma. The pountbof Dhamma is not to have metta and be a warm and friendly person, the point is to understand whatever reality arises. There are many false "Dhamma" ways to try to have more "metta" but they are rooted in greed for mental comfort. There is hatred arising for me a lot of the time I am here. It is a reailty to be understood. That is why I put a "Phil when unfriendly" photo in the photo section. That is a reailty (the disa, not Phil) a lot of the time. Hippies? Interesting. There are conditions for me to like hippies. There are conditions for me to hate right wing Republican party assholes. Different conditions, different reailties. Keep in touch and tell us more about the reailties you are understanding. Phil P.s to mods and all, the mobile site is clearer to me now. Not being able to cut and paste and quote blocks of sutta easily could b a blessing in dusguise. Let's talk about what we understand instead of spewing chunks of suttanta that we think we understand because we are able to read them. And having trouble to arrange to debate earnestly by quoting each other is also fine, too much greed for results in that, in my opinion. #132923 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 9:39 am Subject: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas philofillet Hi again My post got cut off. The mobile ste doesn't work for me, after all. Lukas, my point was tell us more about the realities you are understanding, that is the point of Dhamma. Not being Mr Full of Metta, which usually means being full of greed for mental comfort. With metta (at this monent but usually not when I am here) Phil #132924 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 9:48 am Subject: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Nina and friends, Such a full day yesterday, so no time to send any notes. In the early morning Jon and I had a lovely time joining some of Vietnamese friends for a swim in the sea and exercise and fun together on the beach. Back for breakfast and then a long discussion in the morning, mostly addressing questions of the bhikkhus (4) who attended. Meditation practices and experiences and a long discussion on 'basics' - understanding dhammas such as visible object now. After lunch, the discussion for some of us was 3.5 hrs without leaving our seats! Everything came up from metta such as when one's son would like some tattoos on his arms - understanding leads to being a more understanding person, more metta - to sharing merit and concerns over the recital we give at the end of discussions to discussion on rupas and conditions to brain and nervous systems to scientific concerns vs Dhamma teachings to natural behaviour and speech - some become withdrawn and avoid unnecessary speech. AS: Did you speak a lot before hearing the Teachings? Dhammas should be known as they are. Otherwise unnatural - to Middle Way, to mana, conceit and more.... It'll be another full and last day of discussion today, so I need to get down to breakfast now. Tomorrow is a travel day - the Thai group (including Jon and I) travel back to Saigon for a short flight to Da Lat in the mountains for a couple of days of R&R Will share a few more notes I jotted down another time. Meanwhile, hope everyone keeps up the discussions here. Metta Sarah ====== #132925 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 9:58 am Subject: RE: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas epsteinrob Hi Phil and especially pt. Re. Phil's message getting cut off, I just wrote a long post to Jon on satipatthana and when I scrolled down to send it, it disappeared. I don't know what's going on with this new yahoo format, but it sucks. This is more frustrating than satipatthana. Thanks, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi again My post got cut off. The mobile ste doesn't work for me, after all. Lukas, my point was tell us more about the realities you are understanding, that is the point of Dhamma. Not being Mr Full of Metta, which usually means being full of greed for mental comfort. With metta (at this monent but usually not when I am here) Phil #132926 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 10:04 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting kenhowardau Hi all, Some of us got out on the grumpy side of bed this morning! That includes 54% of Australians who have a new federal government they didn't vote for. We now have a prime minister who believes climate science is (quote) crap, and who wants to pay wealthy Catholic women $75,000 every time they can prove they didn't practise birth control. Is there a cetasika that inflicts those terrible things upon us? Is there an Australian prime minister cetasika? No, I don't think there is. Those things are ultimately non-existent. So are we! What is there to complain about? Ken H #132927 From: Jagkrit Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah I've heard somebody saying that he doesn't believe a table is dhukkha. Good to think. Next round of live discussion at. http://www.dhammahome.com/live/en Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Sep 9, 2013, at 6:48, sarah abbott wrote: #132928 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 4:05 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, >J: I've heard somebody saying that he doesn't believe a table is dhukkha. Good to think. .... S: How can a table be dukkha when it doesn't exist? .... >Next round of live discussion at. http://www.dhammahome.com/live/en S: Last session, starting around 3 p.m. this afternoon....times vary depending on when Ajahn and the bhikkhus arrive:-) Metta Sarah ====== #132929 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 4:09 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas sarahprocter... Dear Rob E, I just wrote a message suggesting everyone should be careful to: a) click 'send' and not 'reply' to post the message after writing it b), copy it until it appears on list. Hope you can write it again...thx for your patience! metta Sarah - >R: Re. Phil's message getting cut off, I just wrote a long post to Jon on satipatthana and when I scrolled down to send it, it disappeared. I don't know what's going on with this new yahoo format, but it sucks. This is more frustrating than satipatthana. #132930 From: Lukas Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 4:32 pm Subject: RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas szmicio Hello >S: Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to ask or say. L: My question to Ajahn is: What is the way to really understand? Lukas #132931 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas sukinderpal Hi PT, Sorry to take so long to respond. I think this is a good thing to discuss. I used to think that what you describe above is mindfulness, but now I think it is only thinking (even if it is non-verbal - so a very clear "patterns and shapes recognition" so to speak, without actual verbal thoughts). In other words, to be with mindfulness, such moments would have to be kusala. But what makes knowing that I'm walking up the stairs kusala? There is no dana, no sila, so to make it bhavana at least, there would have to be either consideration of dhammas (vipassana), or of samatha object (samatha). But walking up the stairs seems to be neither. What would you say is kusala about it? I don't mean to be confrontational - I keep wondering about the same thing, and I can't really find any kusala in knowing that I'm walking, or that I'm sitting, breathing, etc. All these are things mentioned in the satipatthana sutta, yet there must be something I'm missing since there doesn't seem to be any kusala in such moments for me at least. **Perhaps Sukin and KenH could tell us as ex-meditators: In your experiences, when you were aware that you are sitting, or walking, or breathing (so things mentioned in satipatthana sutta), what is the difference between just thinking about it (even though it's in a very clear and non-verbal fashion like it occurs in meditation) as opposed to actual panna arising in such situations, the latter being what satipatthana sutta is actually describing I guess. Thanks I don't think that I can refer to my past experience with any level of accuracy. It is all thinking with ignorance and attachment, hence vipallasa anyway. But I can talk about this topic in a more general way, which I know you don't prefer. ;-) It is clear that any conventional activity involves lots of both verbal and non-verbal thinking. Without thinking, one can't move a finger, remain seated, or turn one's eye. As objects of thinking during any conventional act, some concepts appear as it were, to be in the background while others are more to the fore. For example while walking, one thinks in terms of what is in front and around, but not in terms of where to place the next foot. Similarly with the postures of sitting, standing and lying down, there is verbal thinking and objects paid attention to more than others, some associated simply, with a sense of 'something'. What then happens during so-called "mindfulness" of walking, breathing, sitting and postures in general? I believe that it is thinking more about/ proliferating on, concepts which otherwise are in the background and / or involve non-verbal thinking. For example, the movement of the feet, the tactile consciousness of say, the leg touching the floor, the movement of the belly, the sensation at the nose of breath etc. whereas all those other objects which normally are thought about more elaborately, are now in the background or not thought about at all. Could this be what the Buddha taught? Could he have recommended simply the change of objects of thinking? I don't think so. His is addressing what is at the root, namely ignorance, to be eradicated, and wisdom, to be developed. As you say, the study of citta, cetasika and rupa or vipassana bhavana. It is as if those who follow such practices, are in fact not hearing the Buddha. The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, therefore what is expected of us as students of his teachings, is to understand this, starting with the pariyatti level. How else could there be sacca nnana which is supposed to then lead to kicca nnana and to kata nnana? The so-called "practice" cited is not what patipatti is about. They are own inventions, and is the reason why often results in downplaying the need to listen to the teachings / study. Any real understanding associated with patipatti on the other hand, this not only is in accord with pariyatti understanding, but must in fact encourage continued listening to / Dhamma study. Sacca nnana, kicca nnana and kata nnana are the three rounds of knowledge with regard to the Four Noble Truths each of which must conform to the other. I probably have not answered the way you expected. But I hope that it is OK. Metta, Sukin #132932 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 9 sep 2013, om 08:32 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: Hello >S: Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to ask or say. L: My question to Ajahn is: What is the way to really understand? Lukas ------------ N: We all know that the answer is: be aware of the reality now, like seeing, anger, attachment. We know in theory, but applying it we find difficult. We need more listening, it never is enough. There is still an idea of self who wants to really understand. I just heard an old recording, where Jon explains that we should not have an idea that unpleasant thoughts with worry are incompatible with satipa.t.thaana. It arises naturally and why try to avoid it. There can be a very short moment of sati in between and that is better than trying not to have unpleasant thoughts. Nina. _ #132933 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 9:30 pm Subject: RE: RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, >L: My question to Ajahn is: What is the way to really understand? ... S: A.Sujin's reply: AS: The Buddha's Teachings can protect from akusala. At that moment it's kusala. Is that the way? S: Yes, it must be with right understanding, otherwise there's no idea of what is kusala and akusala and all are taken for self. AS: Yes. **** Metta Sarah ====== #132934 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 10:24 pm Subject: RE: Voting buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Your post really made me laugh. And it wasn't the kind of laughter that Nina and Sarah seem to have...that kind of nervous laughter at the wrong comment said at the wrong time. No, my laughter is a joyful laughter because someone on DSG has finally got it and said it outloud!! This attack on our group is a political attack and is intimately tied into what is going on in the world today. Benghazi, NSA, Syria targeting, etc., it is all connected. If you understand karma (kamma) you will see that it is all connected. Often I feel like I am fighting a war on many fronts, but it is a good war to fight. More and more people are starting to wake up to the gov. bs. Just don't give up and keep aware. We won't have to talk trough paper cups like children forever. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi all, Some of us got out on the grumpy side of bed this morning! That includes 54% of Australians who have a new federal government they didn't vote for. We now have a prime minister who believes climate science is (quote) crap, and who wants to pay wealthy Catholic women $75,000 every time they can prove they didn't practise birth control. Is there a cetasika that inflicts those terrible things upon us? Is there an Australian prime minister cetasika? No, I don't think there is. Those things are ultimately non-existent. So are we! What is there to complain about? Ken H #132935 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 11:31 pm Subject: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 14 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Our last day of discussions with the Venerable monks and our many Vietnamese friends. Everything was organised so well, so it's all gone very smoothly and there were lots of good questions up til the end. Amazingly, neither Tam Bach (who has been tirelessly and very skilfully translating all the discussions) nor Ajahn Sujin lost their voices, though I know both will be ready for a quiet rest. We have such kind and considerate friends here and there is such keen interest in the Dhamma, (not to mention the delicious food)..... we're very fortunate to participate. A question about 'wandering mind', such as during the discussions and trying to prevent or control it. When understood as a dhamma, no trouble, but when there is the trying to control, it's trouble. No one can do anything. Why worry about it? It's gone completely. A question for a bhikkhu about turning away when noticing women wearing some clothes and a discussion about how it's not just following rules with no understanding. Many questions about 'what should I do?' When there is understanding of dhammas as dhammas, no such question, no 'I' to do anything now or in future. Just conditioned dhammas to be understood. "All the Teachings are about 'now' - so studying means beginning to understand whatever appears now, little by little." The words or Teachings are for understanding - not just reading without any understanding or thinking one knows those words. The Teachings are very subtle. The more one understands, the more one realises it's necessary to go 'deeper and deeper'. Sacca nana - the intellectual understanding that cannot be shaken. It understands seeing can be directly known. If there is the idea of a long, long time, 'too long', it's not sacca nana. Only sacca nana or pariyatti can condition patipatti - not just trying with the idea of self. It takes all the paramis to understand reality - sacca, viriya, khanti and so on. One of the bhikkhus mentioned that now he understands that there's no need to meditate and he has a different understanding. For the harmony at his monastery, everyone starts meditation at the same time. Should he now conform to the schedule of others - this is with lobha wishing to join - or should he stop such activities. AS's ans: Is lobha self or a reality to be known as no self? Otherwise it's not understanding, still the idea of 'my lobha'. We use 'right path', but when lobha is there, what is 'right path' then? If one dislikes the lobha, there is no understanding of it as a reality. Without right understanding, it cannot be the right path. The right path is not easy. More for the mother who would like to tell her son in his early 20s not to get a tattoo. One might feel pleased to tell one's child not to behave in this way, but he might feel miserable and depressed to be told such. One (the mother in this case) is just thinking about one's own wishes and it can condition problems later with the son who may feel more and more resentful. A.Sujin gave the example of a relative who over-fussed about her son and how he now lives in America and seldom visits her. Understanding leads to being a more understanding person, more metta - appreciating the other's accumulations are different with different preferences and so on. Metta Sarah ===== #132936 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jagkrit wrote: > http://www.dhammahome.com/live/en ... S: Did you listen today? How did it sound? Do you see a picture or just get the sound? The bhikkhus were all very appreciative at the end and said they wished to ask us further questions here if someone helps them. It was amazing really - even though all the most controversial topics came up repeatedly, no one got angry or visibly upset and questions were asked very sincerely up until the end with lots of good wishes from everyone as we parted. Metta Sarah ===== #132937 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:07 am Subject: Re: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin glenjohnann Dear Jagrit and Sarah Was able to hear the live discussion last night (Mon. am for you). Thanks for the link, Jagrit, I had not been able to get to the right place before. Do you know when the other live webcasts will be? If so, would appreciate knowing here too. I can see that S., J., Tam, and Achan S. are all working long and skilfully answering people's questions and helping people understand. Anumodhana all round. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jagkrit wrote: > > Dear Sarah > > I've heard somebody saying that he doesn't believe a table is dhukkha. > Good to think. > > Next round of live discussion at. > > http://www.dhammahome.com/live/en > > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 9, 2013, at 6:48, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > #132938 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:15 am Subject: Re: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin glenjohnann Hi again Sarah and Jagrit Just read Sara's questions to Jagrit about the webcast I heard last night. The sound was good and clear - so long as it was S., J. Achan S. or Tam speaking. Others more difficult - but that did not really affect the messages being given. There were a few occasions when there was a little blip in that something would be repeated or a brief moment when something was skipped. But all in all - very good and easy to listen to. No picture - just sound on my end. No frame for a picture either. On the same page was a broadcast of discussions in Bangkok in Thai - there was a frame for the picture to be shown - but no pic. Wishing you safe travels and a good and relaxing stay at your next destination, Sarah et al. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > ><. . .> #132939 From: Lukas Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:09 am Subject: RE: RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas szmicio Hi, >S: A.Sujin's reply: >AS: The Buddha's Teachings can protect from akusala. At that moment it's kusala. Is that the way? L: Less wrong view is good. Upanissaya gocara, arakkha gocara, upanibhandha gocara. Best wishes Lukas #132940 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:19 am Subject: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas szmicio Hi Phil, Yeap since you getting angry you can know how I feel. For sure this is hearing and considering dhamma that leads to more and more detachement and right understanding. But be honest, when we talk on citta cetasika and ruupa than we speculate all the time. We dont know them. So this is like talking about ghosts, we know they exist and they are there but we cannot see them ;P About hippie, fuck them. Let they do what they want, not my bussiness. Best wishes Lukas #132941 From: Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:23 am Subject: RE: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin gazita2002 Hallo Ann, how are you? What are you listening to and how did you source the site? maybe info was given here but have missed it. I have soooo little patience when it comes to computer stuff (actually very little patience for anything) - when I was way young and wanted to be a nurse, my mother said I would never handle it as I had no patience, but in fact I had lots of 'patients' over the years!!!:) Will you be going to T'land in Jan? My unit is complete and now on the market, but things are pretty slow around here. Now I play the waiting game - no fun for an impatient person:( Patience -hah, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi again Sarah and Jagrit Just read Sara's questions to Jagrit about the webcast I heard last night. The sound was good and clear - so long as it was S., J. Achan S. or Tam speaking. Others more difficult - but that did not really affect the messages being given. There were a few occasions when there was a little blip in that something would be repeated or a brief moment when something was skipped. But all in all - very good and easy to listen to. No picture - just sound on my end. No frame for a picture either. On the same page was a broadcast of discussions in Bangkok in Thai - there was a frame for the picture to be shown - but no pic. Wishing you safe travels and a good and relaxing stay at your next destination, Sarah et al. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > ><. . .> #132942 From: Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:33 am Subject: RE: Voting gazita2002 Hallo KenH and James, not only grumpy but impatient as well! I'm ready to catch the next asylum seeker boat OUT. Actually we can be grateful that no one killed anyone - yet! What is there to complain about you ask? Well, its all a concept isn't it? Voting, politics, prime ministers - omg, i want to throw-up! Hard to have metta for someone I really don't like, but I guess there can be some understanding of the arisen dosa. might go bush and count our rapidly disappearing frogs. Patience -none, courage - hard to find, good cheer - none, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi all, Some of us got out on the grumpy side of bed this morning! That includes 54% of Australians who have a new federal government they didn't vote for. We now have a prime minister who believes climate science is (quote) crap, and who wants to pay wealthy Catholic women $75,000 every time they can prove they didn't practise birth control. Is there a cetasika that inflicts those terrible things upon us? Is there an Australian prime minister cetasika? No, I don't think there is. Those things are ultimately non-existent. So are we! What is there to complain about? Ken H #132943 From: philip Coristine Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:10 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas philofillet Hi Lukas I think we speculate about most dhammas. All of us -not only people with wrong ciew that leads them to believe their meditation is bhavana- all pf us have greed to know more than we do, more than we can. That is why Ajahn diesn't answer a lot of questions and keeps bringing us back to seeing now, hearing now. Anyways I'm glad I made my point that belueving Dhamma to be about hsppiness and nice behaviour is a huge fundmental error. As understanding develops gappiness and nice behaviour will result more often, but they are not the point. The modern world wants them to be the point, needs them to be the point. That's why "Buddhism" is a feelgood greed factory. It's the way of the world. But we have a wise teacher who helps steer us free of all that greed and wrong view. (lobha ditthi) Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: szmicio@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 21:19:18 +0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas Hi Phil, Yeap since you getting angry you can know how I feel. For sure this is hearing and considering dhamma that leads to more and more detachement and right understanding. But be honest, when we talk on citta cetasika and ruupa than we speculate all the time. We dont know them. So this is like talking about ghosts, we know they exist and they are there but we cannot see them ;P About hippie, fuck them. Let they do what they want, not my bussiness. Best wishes Lukas #132944 From: Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:29 am Subject: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas philofillet Hi again Lukas And as for the speculation about dhammas, I think that is the great gift of Abhidhamma. Personally speaking, I accept that it came a little later. But I still deeply alue it because respecting its detailed explanation of dhammas frees us from the modern sickness of thinking we can understand everything by thinking hard and acting with ambition. It mostly applies to Americans (yes we can!) but all of in the West are prone to it. Abhidhamma helps us to have a little humility because it makes clear how shallow our understanding is compared to the profound understanding of the Buddha and the ancient arahants. Do you want to have more understanding? Just understand. Now. If we try to get more than there are conditions to understand, then it is speculaton and greed. On tge other hand, I think its great to read about and briefly reflect on the teachings, that can help condition understanding that must always arise beyond our control, free of self greed for results. (Badically because self fears death, I think.) Phil #132945 From: Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:14 am Subject: RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 13 with A.Sujin jagkrit2012 Dear Ann Upon our Thais friend in Vong Tao, they said we're going to have the last live broadcast discussion this morning (Sep 10) at 8.30 am Vietnamtime 8.30 pm (Sep 9) in Montreal, Canada in the same webpage. http://www.dhammahome.com/live/en You can check for this last session whether they can broadcast or there is alteration of schedule because Sarah did not mention this. I do hope you well in Canada and look forward to seeing you here very soon. Anumodhana Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi again Sarah and Jagrit Just read Sara's questions to Jagrit about the webcast I heard last night. The sound was good and clear - so long as it was S., J. Achan S. or Tam speaking. Others more difficult - but that did not really affect the messages being given. There were a few occasions when there was a little blip in that something would be repeated or a brief moment when something was skipped. But all in all - very good and easy to listen to. No picture - just sound on my end. No frame for a picture either. On the same page was a broadcast of discussions in Bangkok in Thai - there was a frame for the picture to be shown - but no pic. Wishing you safe travels and a good and relaxing stay at your next destination, Sarah et al. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > <. . .> #132946 From: philip Coristine Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:20 am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas philofillet Hi again Lukas. The below is actually my second msg to you this morning. The first didn't appear, it hasn't yet. Rob E's msg from yesterday just appeared in my mailbox for a aecond time. I think this Yahoo mess is leading to interesting conditions for detachment. It hardly matters and if it does there is too much attachment to DSG. Anyways, let's keep writing to each other. Is there seeing now? Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: philco777@hotmail.com Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 16:29:49 -0700 Subject: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas Hi again Lukas And as for the speculation about dhammas, I think that is the great gift of Abhidhamma. Personally speaking, I accept that it came a little later. But I still deeply alue it because respecting its detailed explanation of dhammas frees us from the modern sickness of thinking we can understand everything by thinking hard and acting with ambition. It mostly applies to Americans (yes we can!) but all of in the West are prone to it. Abhidhamma helps us to have a little humility because it makes clear how shallow our understanding is compared to the profound understanding of the Buddha and the ancient arahants. Do you want to have more understanding? Just understand. Now. If we try to get more than there are conditions to understand, then it is speculaton and greed. On tge other hand, I think its great to read about and briefly reflect on the teachings, that can help condition understanding that must always arise beyond our control, free of self greed for results. (Badically because self fears death, I think.) Phil #132947 From: Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:55 am Subject: RE: RE: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas jagkrit2012 Dear Phil and Lukas Every matter happens to test our understanding of anatta. No matter they are Yahoo mess, hippies, rages, chanda and saddha to dhamma, feeling pleasant and unpleasant, metta or no metta. They've long gone. Whether we can use them to understand or waste them with more ignorance. I hear TA Sujin always says "in each moment, whether we sprinkle understanding or ignorance into our cittas." And I like Phil's reminder "is there seeing now?" That's the way to sprinkle more understanding into our wholesome citta. Little by little, step by step. Back away from Uddhacca and Kukkucca. Anumodhana Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi again Lukas. The below is actually my second msg to you this morning. The first didn't appear, it hasn't yet. Rob E's msg from yesterday just appeared in my mailbox for a aecond time. I think this Yahoo mess is leading to interesting conditions for detachment. It hardly matters and if it does there is too much attachment to DSG. Anyways, let's keep writing to each other. Is there seeing now? Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: philco777@... Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 16:29:49 -0700 Subject: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas Hi again Lukas And as for the speculation about dhammas, I think that is the great gift of Abhidhamma. Personally speaking, I accept that it came a little later. But I still deeply alue it because respecting its detailed explanation of dhammas frees us from the modern sickness of thinking we can understand everything by thinking hard and acting with ambition. It mostly applies to Americans (yes we can!) but all of in the West are prone to it. Abhidhamma helps us to have a little humility because it makes clear how shallow our understanding is compared to the profound understanding of the Buddha and the ancient arahants. Do you want to have more understanding? Just understand. Now. If we try to get more than there are conditions to understand, then it is speculaton and greed. On tge other hand, I think its great to read about and briefly reflect on the teachings, that can help condition understanding that must always arise beyond our control, free of self greed for results. (Badically because self fears death, I think.) Phil #132948 From: Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:42 pm Subject: RE: RE: Voting kenhowardau Hi James, ---- <. . .> > J: Benghazi, NSA, Syria targeting, etc., it is all connected. If you understand karma (kamma) you will see that it is all connected. ---- KH: Thanks for your support, James. I wish I could return the favour and support your theory. But I can't see any connection between kamma and Syria - or between kamma and *any* concept. The illusory world of permanent beings seemed to be plagued by ignorance, greed and violence, but I don't think there is anything we can learn from that, or anything we can do about it. It is a directionless ocean of concepts. Anyone who believes in it is lost. The world of paramattha dhammas is totally different. It contains the the way out. Ken H #132950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 7 sep 2013, om 15:00 heeft Upasaka@aol.com het volgende geschreven: > ----------- > > The clinging to self has to be eradicated first. What do we take for self? Seeing, hearing, visible object, any reality that appears. Lobha is real, we cannot say that it is not real. It has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, not self. > > > > ----------------------------- > > HCW: And what is that nature we must come to know about these dhammas? I believe it is exactly the tilakkhana, not the alleged "reality" of these dhammas. > > -------------------------------- N: It is always the tilakkhana "of" conditioned dhammas. So, we have to know what these conditioned dhammas are. When do they appear? How can they be known? These are important questions. -------- > > > N: Perhaps we have to go more into the meaning of conditioned. There is seeing now. This could not arise if there were no eyesense and colour or visible object. Eyesense and visible object are among the conditions for seeing and they are fleeting elements, but still, not imaginary. ----------------------------------- HCW: My view: Not imaginary as the fleeting elements of experience they are. They are actually experienced. But they are imaginary when viewed as independent, separate realities. ------------------------------------ N: Right, exactly. That is why I repeat: conditioned dhammas. As you say, not imaginary. Seeing arises and this is not something imaginary. IT must experience an object, namely visible object. Otherwise it would not be seeing. It is only there for an extremely short moment and then gone, never to return. Understanding can develop so that it becomes keen and sharp, so that it can penetrate the nature of such a fleeting dhamma. Otherwise the Buddha would not have taught the development of the eightfold Path. ---------- > > We read in the ╲Kindred Sayings╡ (IV, Kindred sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch IV, § 85, Void): > > N: Would the Buddha mention time and again visible object, sound, etc. as among the conditions for sense-cognitions if they were mere nothings? ------------------------------- HCW: They are not mere nothings, because they are elements of experience. But that is all they are, and our viewing them as self-existent "realities" is where we go wrong, IMO. We indeed need to know their true nature as 1) conditions for suffering (when ignorance reifies them and craving for their appearing or disappearing arises), 2) as fleeting, and 3) as lacking in self. Were direct awareness of this tripartite emptiness be already in effect, there would be no need for their frequent mention. When one truly knows that the "snake" is but a coiled rope, no further attention need be paid. -------------------------------- N: Now let us look at your quote at the end: /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick Ëś this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) ------ N: They have to be observed, examined by pa~n~naa that is a cetasika, mental factor, not self. The three general characteristics cannot be known immediately, first the reality appearing at this moment (it always has to be this moment) has to be understood as just a conditioned dhamma. There is atta-sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self very often. It is deeply rooted and it can only be lessened stage by stage. At the first stage of insight, distinguishing the difference between naama and ruupa, there is anattaa sa~n~naa, but attaa sa~n~naa has not been eradicated. Only at the moment of enlightenment one of the three characteristics is clearly realized. This means, the dhamma that was object of the cittas arising shortly before the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana, was either seen as impermanent, or as dukkha or as anattaa. This depends on accumulated inclinations. Thus, this helps us to see that the tilakkhana are not taught in general, not in abstracto. They always pertain to this moment now. Nina. #132951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas nilovg Dear Lukas, It is very useful if you can describe these three. Not everybody is familair with these terms. Nina. Op 9 sep 2013, om 23:09 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: L: Less wrong view is good. Upanissaya gocara, arakkha gocara, upanibhandha gocara. #132952 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Thanks very much for this detailed and instructive post of yours! :-) I'm not sure my view differs radically from your understanding. I think our differences lie largely in where we put emphasis and in terminology, and much less so in substance. In any case, I applaud your depth of knowledge, your devotion to the Dhamma, and your so very kindly approach to all of us! With much metta, Howard --<. . .> #132953 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:16 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting kevinf596 Dear all, If you haven't voted on these additional topics yet, please do so, helping to ensure a better experience while using Yahoo Groups. Thanks, Kevin Sarah wrote: ... http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403490-reply-window-is-too-small http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403525-quote-button-please-add-it-to-the-reply-editor #132954 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:21 am Subject: RE: RE: Photos during discussion in Saigon kevinf596 >J: I've uploaded pictures of TA Sujin and friends during our discussion in Saigon last week. Please click "photo" in the main page. I do hope you joyful with this wholesome events. .... Great photos Jagkrit! Thank you... Kevin #132955 From: Lukas Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas szmicio Hi Phil, Less wrong view is the best what can happen in life. You tell how panna develops, but it only panna that can tell, only for a one moment and than gone forever. Never the same understanding, nver the same object of understanding. You cannot understand something twice. Only one new panna, and than forgot. This accumulates. Only a glimpse of understanding can tell. Other moment while it's not panna you think of panna, and construct stories of them. Like a lot of stories, but even this stories. Like a spectulation of understanding and how it develops, can have an object the past panna. Thus they can be thinkings with panna or with ignorance. This are mostly 9gnorance, attachement, blindness and stories. But there can be recollection wisely with panna, the panna that falls away long ago. Thus like strong panna from past, can be object ton present thinkings. By conditions. No one can tell you, no one. Only your panna. Panna can even know that present thinking is conditioned by past panna. We can think wisly and wrongly, thus both may be conditioned by past panna. There is no one in it, but did you investigated that? If someone tells you there is no self, no one there or a self self. No proof of that. Only panna checks, but than is so many words of abhidhamma, only to investigate..Only panna can tell, one object at a time. One wise recolection than gone, and again madness. Because if you think like this: there is no self. This is not investigation. This is some kind of belief. This is wrong view. And belive me thus can really harm. Nothing harms so much as wrong view. What is the condition for panna to arise? No word panna, how do you feel what panna is? Best wishes Lukas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "philco777@hotmail.com" To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 12:29 AM Subject: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas Hi again Lukas And as for the speculation about dhammas, I think that is the great gift of Abhidhamma. Personally speaking, I accept that it came a little later. But I still deeply alue it because respecting its detailed explanation of dhammas frees us from the modern sickness of thinking we can understand everything by thinking hard and acting with ambition. It mostly applies to Americans (yes we can!) but all of in the West are prone to it. Abhidhamma helps us to have a little humility because it makes clear how shallow our understanding is compared to the profound understanding of the Buddha and the ancient arahants. Do you want to have more understanding? Just understand. Now. If we try to get more than there are conditions to understand, then it is speculaton and greed. On tge other hand, I think its great to read about and briefly reflect on the teachings, that can help condition understanding that must always arise beyond our control, free of self greed for results. (Badically because self fears death, I think.) Phil #132956 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:42 am Subject: RE: RE: Voting kenhowardau Hi Azita, Thanks for your grumpy post: so nice to have company in these troubled times! I blame reality television shows. . . . . . No, don't get me started on them! Lets' talk about right understanding. Have you seen any good visible objects lately? :-) Ken H #132957 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:25 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas ptaus1 Hi RobE and Phil, RE: Phil's message getting cut off, I just wrote a long post to Jon on satipatthana and when I scrolled down to send it, it disappeared. I don't know what's going on with this new yahoo format, but it sucks. p: Not sure what's going on there, I suspect that Javascript, though faster, is more unstable. This would probably be even more evident with mobile devices where the connection fluctuates and thus script loading is affected. Still, the old format had similar problems, so I do the same thing in the new format that I used to do in the old one: when I finished typing my reply, before doing anything else, I hit CtrlA (Select All) and then CtrlC (Copy). In this way everything you just typed is copied to the clipboard, so if there's any problems with the posting process, the whole Reply can be retrieved from your clipboard and thus save you a lot of time and frustration. Best wishes pt #132958 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:39 am Subject: Through the mud... philofillet Hi Jagkrit (note to Lukas at end) >>>Every matter happens to test our understanding of anatta. No matter they are Yahoo mess, hippies, rages, chanda and saddha to dhamma, feeling pleasant and unpleasant, metta or no metta. They've long gone. Whether we can use them to understand or waste them with more ignorance. Ph: : Well said. We have deep accumulations to prefer and try to guarantee certain kinds of dhammas. Of course if kusala arises, great. But to aim for it is an akusala trap. That's why I disagree with the moderators' policy of insisting on griendly speech in their group guidelines. It's been better recently but about two years ago there was an unfortunate period when there was alot of bad blood and bickering and the moderators and other mbers tried to enforce pleasant behaviour. Trying to enforce pleasant behaviour is akusala. In all likelhood when people are trgkecting a lot on the Dhamma pleasant behaviour will be conditioned, or it could be said that people who have the conditions to refkect on Dhamma they will also have conditions for pleasant behaviour. Vir if at times there are conditions for ynpkeasant behaviour they had best be understood as anatta. Encouraging understanding is better than insisting on pleasant behaviour and of course understanding is the only way to the truly pleasant behaviour (rather than lobha-rooted clining to it) that comes with liberation. > I hear TA Sujin always says "in each moment, whether we sprinkle understanding or ignorance into our cittas." And I like Phil's reminder "is there seeing now?" That's the way to sprinkle more understanding into our wholesome citta. Little by little, step by step. Back away from Uddhacca and Kukkucca. Ph: little by little, step by step, beyond akusala but having to go through aksala, like those lotus flowers in the mud. No dodging the mud for some of us, understanding growsthrough it. I'm glad to see Lukas postig. Lukas, back to you tomorrow. Phil #132959 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:06 am Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Sukin (Alex, RobE), Thanks for your response. > S: What then happens during so-called "mindfulness" of walking, breathing, sitting and postures in general? I believe that it is thinking more about/ proliferating on, concepts which otherwise are in the background and / or involve non-verbal thinking. For example, the movement of the feet, the tactile consciousness of say, the leg touching the floor, the movement of the belly, the sensation at the nose of breath etc. whereas all those other objects which normally are thought about more elaborately, are now in the background or not thought about at all. > Could this be what the Buddha taught? Could he have recommended simply the change of objects of thinking? I don't think so. His is addressing what is at the root, namely ignorance, to be eradicated, and wisdom, to be developed. As you say, the study of citta, cetasika and rupa or vipassana bhavana. p: Yes, I agree here. Just the fact that there is no verbal thinking and the mind appears to be more clear, focused and sharp, does not mean that there is no non-verbal thinking happening. Further, it does not mean that there is mindfulness and awareness in the absence of verbal thinking. Just "knowing that I'm breathing in long" without verbal thinking still does not mean that there is actual mindfulness and awareness happening. It could all still just be akusala non-verbal thinking, regardless of whether we are talking about samatha or vipassana meditation. The questions worth asking imo therefore would be: - what would make knowing without verbal thinking "I breath in long" a kusala moment of samatha, as opposed to it being just non-verbal akusala thinking? - what would make knowing without verbal thinking that "I'm walking up the stairs" kusala and a moment of awareness in daily life, as opposed to it being just non-verbal akusala thinking? - what would make knowing without verbal thinking that "I'm angry" kusala and a moment of vipassana, as opposed to it being just non-verbal akusala thinking? > S: The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, therefore what is expected of us as students of his teachings, is to understand this, starting with the pariyatti level. p: I must say that after all these years, I'm still not clear on the difference between pariayatti and just thinking (even if non-verbally), in particular when it comes to confusing atta sanna with pariyatti. Best wishes pt #132960 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:08 am Subject: RE: Through the mud... philofillet Hi again Usually I don't correct my iphone typos but An important point here to clarify: " Trying to enforce pleasant behaviour is akusala. In all likelhood when people are *reflecting* a lot on the Dhamma pleasant behaviour will be conditioned, or it could be said that people who have the conditions to refkect on Dhamma will also have conditions for pleasant behaviour. *But if* at times there are conditions for unpleasant behaviour they had best be understood as anatta." Ph: And I add of course there can be reflection on the harmfulness of akusala. ****But that reflection can't be conditioned by reminders from friends whoare seeking to avoid dosa rather than speaking from understanding This is all off topic. My main point to Lukas was that feeling anxiety and hatred and doubt and despair doesn't mean that we are away from the true Dhamma and feeling pleasant friendly feelings doesn't mean (necessarily) that we are connected to the true Dhamma. As for the pop Dhamma that is all about insisting on trying to get kusala, very nice for making people feel happy in the short term Phil Phil #132961 From: Lukas Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:44 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas szmicio Hello, You can always send a message to dsg and also add another recepient in your email to the peron you reply, than one can see messages faster Lukas #132962 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:12 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: Voting buddhatrue Hi Ken H., That's okay, I know you believe that nothing is real. I am more of the school of Ajahn Buddhadasa and believe that Buddhism should be combined with social awareness and social activism. I don't think it does anyone any good to pretend that no person exists while people are getting blown up by American "love bombs". It's hard to balance renunciation and social activism, but I believe it is possible. Metta, James ps. I really don't know how to trim messages in this new format. Sorry Sarah and Jon. #132963 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:42 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: RE: Voting philofillet Hi Ken H I must say your references to politics here puzzles me a bit. If there are only paramattha dhammas to be understood by those who are awake to the true Dhamma, of what interest is politics? I only say that because you are Mr. parattha dhammas only, which I respect of course. Not meaning to criticize, just curious, the answer is probably in your previous posts, which I only scanned quickly... Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:42:41 -0700 Subject: [dsg] RE: RE: Voting Hi Azita, Thanks for your grumpy post: so nice to have company in these troubled times! I blame reality television shows. . . . . . No, don't get me started on them! Lets' talk about right understanding. Have you seen any good visible objects lately? :-) Ken H #132964 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:46 pm Subject: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat sarahprocter... Dear Friends, After a long day of travel yesterday, we're now enjoying some mountain fresh air in Da Lat for a couple of days before returning to Thailand. Just our Thai friends and us now - excursions and a good and well-deserved rest for A.Sujin. Everyone's very cheery, having fun and everyone is very kind and considerate. On the bus journey yesterday, Jon had a long discussion with one Vietnamese friend who is a scientist and believed there is panna when following scientific pursuits. On a few other topics he had disagreed with us, but by the end of the long journey, he told me he now agreed with us on these points! At the same time I had lovely, lively discussions with Lan and another Vietnamese friends on all conditioned dhammas being dukkha, vedana arising each moment, seeing now, visible object now and more. At lunch and whilst wandering near a waterfall, Jon and I had some brief chats with a Thai friend about pariyatti - understanding about realities now. He mentioned some details he'd heard and read, but so easily it can be thinking about book study or 'delirious thinking' with the name 'pariyatti' rather than the beginning of understanding of what appears now. I also had a chat with a friend whose daughter is studying Performing Arts. She was concerned that this was the wrong path, but I reminded her that there is seeing now, seeing whatever one's way of life is. Understanding can develop anytime at all. Back to Vang Tau and my notes. Someone asked about sleepiness and what is there. AS: Wanting to know? Attachment! What appears? It can be understood. At the moment of no understanding, just wanting not to have it - but will still arise when there are conditions. **** Another questioner mentioned a monk she had listened to who had disrobed and got married and something about other friends in relationships. She feels confused. AS: Dhamma! Dhamma can be kusala or akusala. It shows the anattaness of all dhammas - only dhammas, no person or people. There is disappointment when one thinks one can control. When there is understanding of dhammas as not controllable, there is no disappointment, because dhammas are understood. As long as anyone is not an ariyan, there must be all kinds of akusala. *** Metta Sarah ====== #132965 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:54 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting buddhatrue Hi Kevin, I voted on these additional topics and used all of my votes possible on each one, after checking an "agree to services" disclaimer before I was allowed to vote. Honestly, I am really disgusted with this whole "voting" process and the absolute lack of feedback during the process. Are they trying to improve Yahoo for "user experience" or are they trying to screw us over royally? At this point, I am leaning toward the latter. I am starting to think that the future issues to vote on (which there probably will be) should be about real Internet usage areas. For example: 1. How about members being about to adjust/manipulate HTML code in personal messages? 2. How about Yahoo utilizing XHTML to make messages and feedback more dynamic? 3. How about Yahoo utilizing Dynamic Cascading Style Sheets (DCSS) to accommodate both users and sponsers? In the future, these are probably the specific issues we should throw in their stupid faces! Sorry....they really piss me off. To explain, in addition to being a certified English teacher I am also a certified Internet Web Designer...(I just love computers and went to a private school for a few years to learn about them and get certified.) I can tell you with knowledgeable experience that what Yahoo has done to Yahoo Groups in these past few weeks is a complete cluster-fuck. They are ruining themselves and stressing everyone else out. But, they don't know enough to dig themselves out of the mess. When they made a lot of superficial changes without considering the inner workings of the web, they really screwed up. Honestly, I don't think the current Yahoo team can fix the problems they created. I probably should say so much. Let's just hang back and keep voting. It is going to be painful for Yahoo but they might just figure it out eventually. You have to make mistakes before you can learn. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear all, If you haven't voted on these additional topics yet, please do so, helping to ensure a better experience while using Yahoo Groups. Thanks, Kevin Sarah wrote: ... http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403490-reply-window-is-too-small http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4403525-quote-button-please-add-it-to-the-reply-editor #132966 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:14 pm Subject: RE: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat buddhatrue Hi Sarah, I just clicked on this link because it suddenly popped up and I must say I really enjoyed your update! So you are traveling through Vietnam now? That sounds really nice (sorry I haven't followed this entire thread so I am just jumping in). It sounds really nice that you are traveling through Vietnam on your way to Thailand. That mountain fresh air sounds wonderful! I am now living in Taiwan smog! :-) I am glad that you straightened out the scientist!!! I get really sick and fed up with scientists who think they have discovered the "truth" using "scientific method". What a joke! In my opinion, the holy scientific method is a fool's errand....but you didn't hear that from me! ;-)) But, to be brutally honest, I think KS's comments about the monk disrobing is also nonsense. She shouldn't try to minimize someone else's shock over a faithful monk suddenly disrobing! This is a very shocking thing and a very horrible thing!! And it deserves more careful consideration of the circumstances than the trite condolences she received. Sorry, but I am not that enamored with KS's responses. She seems very uncaring and very unaware/wise to me . Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Friends, After a long day of travel yesterday, we're now enjoying some mountain fresh air in Da Lat for a couple of days before returning to Thailand. Just our Thai friends and us now - excursions and a good and well-deserved rest for A.Sujin. Everyone's very cheery, having fun and everyone is very kind and considerate. On the bus journey yesterday, Jon had a long discussion with one Vietnamese friend who is a scientist and believed there is panna when following scientific pursuits. On a few other topics he had disagreed with us, but by the end of the long journey, he told me he now agreed with us on these points! At the same time I had lovely, lively discussions with Lan and another Vietnamese friends on all conditioned dhammas being dukkha, vedana arising each moment, seeing now, visible object now and more. At lunch and whilst wandering near a waterfall, Jon and I had some brief chats with a Thai friend about pariyatti - understanding about realities now. He mentioned some details he'd heard and read, but so easily it can be thinking about book study or 'delirious thinking' with the name 'pariyatti' rather than the beginning of understanding of what appears now. I also had a chat with a friend whose daughter is studying Performing Arts. She was concerned that this was the wrong path, but I reminded her that there is seeing now, seeing whatever one's way of life is. Understanding can develop anytime at all. Back to Vang Tau and my notes. Someone asked about sleepiness and what is there. AS: Wanting to know? Attachment! What appears? It can be understood. At the moment of no understanding, just wanting not to have it - but will still arise when there are conditions. **** Another questioner mentioned a monk she had listened to who had disrobed and got married and something about other friends in relationships. She feels confused. AS: Dhamma! Dhamma can be kusala or akusala. It shows the anattaness of all dhammas - only dhammas, no person or people. There is disappointment when one thinks one can control. When there is understanding of dhammas as not controllable, there is no disappointment, because dhammas are understood. As long as anyone is not an ariyan, there must be all kinds of akusala. *** Metta Sarah ====== #132967 From: Lukas Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: RE: Re: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas szmicio Hello every one, Upanissaya gocara, arakkha gocara, upanibhandha gocara. I recommend if anyone interest to google it or search DSG. This 3 Ajahn Sujin used while in Poland. This is connected to arammanupanisayapaccaya. The object that conditions accumulation of a particular tendencies. For example one likes coke, thus clinging and liking of coke accumulates more and more. Also there are particular objects for particular person for right understanding, by conditions. By aramman upanissaya paccaya. For example when one sees angry person or brutal person thus metta can arise since this is accyumulated before. To understand such akusala of others. Upanissay gocara, arakkha gocara and upanibbanda gocara. Gocara , an abject. This is how panna develops. First anything must be understood. Any object that comes. Than the particular object are accumulate.like listening to dhamma untill they become protection. Cita becomes kusala with that particular object more and more. This protects. Untill this is upanibbanda, satipattha arises. Best wishes Lukas #132968 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:21 pm Subject: e-notes from Vietnam 15 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Notes from Vung Tau contd Discussion about viriya and someone mentioned doubt. AS: Understand viriya. When there's doubt, viriya is there to condition doubt! *** Qu about knowing bodily and verbal intimation (kaya and vaci vinnatti). AS: Without the experience of the 4 primary rupas (mahabhuta rupas), can there be the understanding of the mahabhuta rupas with and without intimation? Can bodily intimation be understood without an understanding of hardness? Can there be the understanding of the group that arises with it as kaya vinnatti? *** Qu about the Middle Way AS: No attachment, no aversion. At the moment of understanding, no ignorance, *** Qu about mana (conceit) and knowing it. AS: Who is more important than me now? When there is no "I" (i.e. sotapanna), no wrong view of 'me' or 'I'. Still attached to something that belongs to so-called 'us', e.g. wealth. *** AS: The meaning of dhamma is 'whatever is real'. *** AS: Without the 4 primary rupas, no visible object! All other rupas depend on them to arise. *** Qu about observing dhammas AS: Who is observing and what is observed? Thinking only! *** Metta Sarah ====== #132969 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:53 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting sarahprocter... Hi James & Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: That's okay, I know you believe that nothing is real. I am more of the school of Ajahn Buddhadasa and believe that Buddhism should be combined with social awareness and social activism. I don't think it does anyone any good to pretend that no person exists while people are getting blown up by American "love bombs". It's hard to balance renunciation and social activism, but I believe it is possible. ... S: Ken H brought up 'social activism' so leave him to sort this out! ... ps. I really don't know how to trim messages in this new format. Sorry Sarah and Jon. ... S: You did fine and I must say you've always been a "Model Trimmer"!!! In the new format: 1. Click reply 2. Click on the 3 dots at the bottom of the reply window to reply in context and type away 3. TRIM all the previous message you don't need for your reply 4. Copy to clipboard to be safe 5. Click send button (below message) Metta Sarah ===== #132970 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:58 pm Subject: Reminder - language reminder dsgmods Dear All, Please keep your language moderate and avoid swear words. Members continuing to use bad language may have their posts moderated. Jon & Sarah p.s. replies off-list only to this reminder. #132971 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:10 pm Subject: RE: RE: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat sarahprocter... Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: I just clicked on this link because it suddenly popped up and I must say I really enjoyed your update! So you are traveling through Vietnam now? That sounds really nice (sorry I haven't followed this entire thread so I am just jumping in). It sounds really nice that you are traveling through Vietnam on your way to Thailand. That mountain fresh air sounds wonderful! I am now living in Taiwan smog! :-) ... S: Thanks, James! Yes we're travelling with friends from Thailand at the invitation of our many Vietnamese friends who have a very sincere interest in the Dhamma. We were holding discussions in Saigon and a place on the coast, Vung Tau. You can see some of Jagkrit's photos (including a new nice one with himself and his wife) in the DSG album. ... >J: I am glad that you straightened out the scientist!!! I get really sick and fed up with scientists who think they have discovered the "truth" using "scientific method". What a joke! In my opinion, the holy scientific method is a fool's errand....but you didn't hear that from me! ;-)) .... S: Yes, attachment rather than panna is what motivates such endeavours - but that's the same with almost all our daily endeavours! As for the getting "sick and fed up" with scientists, yahoo, politicians, bad monks or anything else, as we know, the real problems, as taught by the Buddha, come down to lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion/anger) and moha (ignorance) at this moment whilst thinking in such ways. Why make life more difficult by being so distressed by such issues? That doesn't mean we don't take action or try to help when we can, of course! ... >J: But, to be brutally honest, I think KS's comments about the monk disrobing is also nonsense. She shouldn't try to minimize someone else's shock over a faithful monk suddenly disrobing! .... S: Like the lady, we may have expectations and hold a monk in high regard or put him on a pedestal in our minds. I think we forget that when we pay respect to the Triple Gem, it is to the great virtues of the Buddha, the Teachings and the Sangha - those who became enlightened whilst following the path, that we pay respect. If we expect monks or lay people to behave a certain way, there's bound to be disappointment. .... Metta Sarah =========== #132972 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:21 pm Subject: RE: Reminder - language reminder buddhatrue Hi Jon and Sarah, I hope you aren't posting this message in response to my posts. I will sometimes use swear words because it is a type of "everyday lingo" that can't be captured anyway otherwise. Hello, I am a certified teacher! I know the appropriate time to use profanity with adults and the appropriate time not to use that. I have never faced that problem. It seems you recommend that a complaint to your post be registered "off-list" but are you serious? I can hardly post on-list so there is no way I could figure out how to send you a message off-list! Metta and Love, James Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear All, Please keep your language moderate and avoid swear words. Members continuing to use bad language may have their posts moderated. Jon & Sarah p.s. replies off-list only to this reminder. #132973 From: Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:39 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat buddhatrue Hi Sarah, I am going to try and reply to your post in-text but it going to be hard in this format. I'm sorry if I screw up. ... S: Thanks, James! Yes we're travelling with friends from Thailand at the invitation of our many Vietnamese friends who have a very sincere interest in the Dhamma. We were holding discussions in Saigon and a place on the coast, Vung Tau. You can see some of Jagkrit's photos (including a new nice one with himself and his wife) in the DSG album. ... James: Yes, I have looked through the many photos posted recently. I think you look sweet and caring as usual; I think that Jon looks very nice nice and I really laughed at the funny captions Jagkrit added to his photos; and I really didn't like the pictures of KS. Wearing sunglasses?? Really? The people came to see her and listen to her and she wore sunglasses inside a building! Terrible! Horrible!! Sorry, but I have been given little reason to warm up to her. But I just love Jagkrit!! If he wasn't married I would fly to Thailand right now to make him my husband immediately! :-))) He is such a sweetie!! :-) Love him! .... S: Yes, attachment rather than panna is what motivates such endeavours - but that's the same with almost all our daily endeavours! As for the getting "sick and fed up" with scientists, yahoo, politicians, bad monks or anything else, as we know, the real problems, as taught by the Buddha, come down to lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion/anger) and moha (ignorance) at this moment whilst thinking in such ways. Why make life more difficult by being so distressed by such issues? James: Yes, of course you are right. I do tend to respond with anger and emotion first. That isn't the right way to respond and I am glad Sarah that you reminded me of that. I will try to work on that- I respect my friends who try to give me helpful advice. That doesn't mean we don't take action or try to help when we can, of course! James: Sarah, I am so glad you added that caveat! We do have to act when acting is necessary...even if it is to give a friend friendly advice. ....... S: Like the lady, we may have expectations and hold a monk in high regard or put him on a pedestal in our minds. I think we forget that when we pay respect to the Triple Gem, it is to the great virtues of the Buddha, the Teachings and the Sangha - those who became enlightened whilst following the path, that we pay respect. If we expect monks or lay people to behave a certain way, there's bound to be disappointment. James: I agree and I disagree. This is a super-complicated issue and I don't really have time to go into it right now. Sebastian is about to come home and he will probably be wondering why I was so in love with Jangkrit over the Internet! I should go before I get into even more trouble! .... Metta Sarah =========== Metta, James #132974 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:17 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat sarahprocter... Hi James, >J: I am going to try and reply to your post in-text but it going to be hard in this format. I'm sorry if I screw up. ... S: You got it! It is an adjustment for us all - but if we can work it out, others can too! Just one clarification: ... >: James: Yes, I have looked through the many photos posted recently. I think you look sweet and caring as usual; I think that Jon looks very nice nice and I really laughed at the funny captions Jagkrit added to his photos; and I really didn't like the pictures of KS. Wearing sunglasses?? Really? The people came to see her and listen to her and she wore sunglasses inside a building! Terrible! Horrible!! Sorry, but I have been given little reason to warm up to her. ... S: She's wearing sunglasses because she has a problem with her eyes - very susceptible to glare in recent years. Doctor's orders. Usually she needs to close her eyes and rest them a lot, like she's able to do now the sessions have finished. Of course, you weren't to know this and so your comments are understandable. People coming to the sessions were told as I recall. .... >J:But I just love Jagkrit!! If he wasn't married I would fly to Thailand right now to make him my husband immediately! :-))) He is such a sweetie!! :-) Love him! .... S: :-)) Yes, we all do! Hope you come to Bangkok one day to join us all. Metta Sarah ====== #132975 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:23 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat kevinf596 Hi James: Just an note. You said: >James: "Wearing sunglasses?? Really? The people came to see her and listen to her and she wore sunglasses inside a building! Terrible! Horrible!! Sorry, but I have been given little reason to warm up to her. But I just love Jagkrit!! If he wasn't married I would fly to Thailand right now to make him my husband immediately!" Kevin: You should respect all teachers, even the ones you disagree with, or can't find benefit in. They are the ones that know more than you, and they are sharing their knowledge. Kevin #132976 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:34 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat kevinf596 Hi Sarah, Sarah wrote: " She's wearing sunglasses because she has a problem with her eyes - very susceptible to glare in recent years. Doctor's orders. Usually she needs to close her eyes and rest them a lot, like she's able to do now the sessions have finished. Of course, you weren't to know this and so your comments are understandable. People coming to the sessions were told as I recall." Kevin: That is very sad. I wonder if she has seen an Ayurvedic doctor and also received treatments from David. That might help. Maybe you should encourage her a little. : ) All the best, Kevin #132977 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: e-notes from Vietnam 14 - Da Lat kevinf596 Hi Sarah, all: >"That is very sad. I wonder if she has seen an Ayurvedic doctor and also received treatments from David. That might help. Maybe you should encourage her a little. : )" Kevin: Well, maybe not the needles. : ) Kevin http://theliteracysite.greatergood.com/clickToGive/lit/home www.ripple.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #132978 From: philip Coristine Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:16 am Subject: (No subject) philofillet Hi Lukas >>Less wrong view is the best what can happen in life. You mentioned gocaras a few times. Can you remind mecwhat they mean? >You tell how panna develops, but it only panna that can tell, only for a one moment and than gone forever. Ph: Sometimes it feels to me like we have blind faith in panna that "works its way." But that's the only way it can be. If we are wanting to have panna, it isn't panna because all kusala is rootred in alobha. >>>Never the same understanding, nver the same object of understanding. You cannot understand something twice. Ph: Well said. Dhamma goea against common sense sometimes just as Dhamma goes against the ways of the world. >>Only one new panna, and than forgot. This accumulates. Only a glimpse of understanding can tell. Ph: The very unspectacular and unimpressive accumulation of panna. People can't show off oannavthat understands visilble object like they can show off their knowledge of suttas. But it is the very gradual developmentof panna now, in daily life, that is the gradual way out... >>Other moment while it's not panna you think of panna, and construct stories of them. Like a lot of stories, but even this stories. Like a spectulation of understanding and how it develops, can have an object the past panna. Thus they can be thinkings with panna or with ignorance. Ph: Thinking with oanna, with past panna as object. Interesting. >>If someone tells you there is no self, no one there or a self self. No proof of that. Only panna checks, but than is so many words of abhidhamma, only to investigate.. Ph: I don't understand " than is so many words of Abhidhamma." Do you mean panna can investigate the reality of all the Abhidhamma details? I guessbitbis mostly lobha when we study Abhidhamma details, with a few openings where panna works its way. >>Only panna can tell, one object at a time. One wise recolection than gone, and again madness. Because if you think like this: there is no self. This is not investigation. This is some kind of belief. This is wrong view. And belive me thus can really harm. Nothing harms so much as wrong view. What is the condition for panna to arise? No word panna, how do you feel what panna is? Ph: my feeling is we don't directly know kusala nama but it accumulates. There can be thinking about it after it falls away. For example metta, we can know when there has been friendluness without attachment. But by then the attachment to friendliness is back. Which is the way it has to be. At least we understand how much lobha there is, how few the monents of kusala w/alobha. Phil #132979 From: philip Coristine Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:25 am Subject: re swear words philofillet Dear James Re the swear words slap on the wrist, don't worry it was probably me they were referring to for my use of the "a" word. (a a a says a a...apple.) As for you, you are permitted to denigrate the teacher behind the founding of this group to your heart's delight. Just don't call her an apple. Phil #132980 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:21 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting kenhowardau Hi James, ------------ <. . .> > J: That's okay, I know you believe that nothing is real. I am more of the school of Ajahn Buddhadasa and believe that Buddhism should be combined with social awareness and social activism. ------------ KH: I know you and Phil skim through my posts :-) but have you noticed I believe conditioned dhammas are real? I argue it with *monotonous* regularity. Do you and Ajahn Buddhadasa believe conditioned dhammas are real? That would mean believing people and social issues were not real. How could you combine the two? ----------------- > J: I don't think it does anyone any good to pretend that no person exists while people are getting blown up by American "love bombs". It's hard to balance renunciation and social activism, but I believe it is possible. ----------------- KH: A Dhamma student can be a social activist. But those are two separate pursuits. They can't be combined into one. The Dhamma is no more in favour of military intervention into Syria than it is against it. According to the Dhamma there is no military and there is nothing to be intervened into. There are only the presently arisen namas and rupas. Ken H #132981 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:11 am Subject: RE: RE: [dsg] RE: RE: Voting kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------- > Ph: I must say your references to politics here puzzles me a bit. If there are only paramattha dhammas to be understood by those who are awake to the true Dhamma, of what interest is politics? ------- KH: Thanks for noticing. :-) My post was on the subject of grumpiness. Robert E and others were complaining about Yahoo, and Connie was complaining about everything. (including the habit of replying to posts line by line. Ouch!) :-) After indulging in a few complaints of my own, I tried to link back to right understanding of conditioned dhammas. When there is RU of CD there are no complaints. There is only contentment and happiness. The Dhamma applies to the present reality.Therefore, contentment and happiness are the only feelings that rightly arise here and now. Grumpiness is a product of ignorance and wrong view. Ken H #132982 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:43 am Subject: RE: Voting philofillet Hi Ken H Well, I think you got caught up in the story, which is fair enough. Just about the time your were bemoaning the Aus. election, I was feeling delighted abou Tokyo getting the Olympics as well as being morbidly fascinated about whether the Fulushima mess is going to get out of control. Durig all that thinking as you say there can be a return to the realities arising. My feeling, conditioned by hearing Ajahn talk about it several times, is that we can only speculate about what cetasikas are arising. But certainly interesting to soeculate in what ways our grumpuness is caused by prior attachment. My DSG grumpiness is related to atachment to certain kinds of content, others may havevattachment to format... Anyways let's always all help each other to bring it back to the realities (paramattha dhammas) Phil #132983 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:43 am Subject: RE: re swear words truth_aerator Dear Phil, James, all, Denigrating a person is wrong. What should be criticized, imho, is incorrect and faulty teaching. With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear James Re the swear words slap on the wrist, don't worry it was probably me they were referring to for my use of the "a" word. (a a a says a a...apple.) As for you, you are permitted to denigrate the teacher behind the founding of this group to your heart's delight. Just don't call her an apple. Phil #132984 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:54 am Subject: RE: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Pt, all, >p: I must say that after all these years, I'm still not clear on the difference between pariayatti and just thinking ?>(even if non-verbally), in particular when it comes to confusing atta sanna with pariyatti. >>>>>>>>>> Pariyatti is study of the texts. Proper thinking is what you do after. You contemplate the teaching that you have study. To do so, you need to use thought. I think that there are two extremes as regarding thought a) not think at all and b) Think that thinking is the path. As for practice, it does seem to me most likely that what one does is to develop a skill at not producing akusala mind states. It is hard work. Easy teachings may seem to be comfortable and nice, but they set the bar too low and don't lead to the real deal. I don't believe in some sort of esoteric knowledge or some divine revelation as cause for maggaphala. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #132985 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:41 pm Subject: RE: re swear words philofillet Hi Alex I agree. But kikesas impel behavour beyond control, so agreeing on what should or shouldn't be done is moot. Better to *understand*the uncontrollable (in some citta steams more than others) nature of kilesas. Phil #132986 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:38 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: [dsg] RE: RE: Voting nichiconn :) Happiness also tending to be a product of ignorance and wrong view, grumpiness still holds an attraction for the generally disagreeable likes of me! Plus, I'm sorry, this particular bed is somewhat barricaded other than the Grumpy side. Are you suggesting more climbing the walls might lead to less shallow thinking on my part? Happy to say the dog evidently was only puking & stuff "all over the place" that one night. Etc. Best, maybe, of recent endings, is mom off the whacka-whacka woooooooo-eeee post-surgery drugs (again "cancer free"). If you must know, this raised the interesting question: why is it one's parent's are not always cheerfully afforded the respect they most assuredly deserve? from the wee molehill of metta, i wish you well, connie --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Phil, ------- > Ph: I must say your references to politics here puzzles me a bit. If there are only paramattha dhammas to be understood by those who are awake to the true Dhamma, of what interest is politics? ------- KH: Thanks for noticing. :-) My post was on the subject of grumpiness. Robert E and others were complaining about Yahoo, and Connie was complaining about everything. (including the habit of replying to posts line by line. Ouch!) :-) After indulging in a few complaints of my own, I tried to link back to right understanding of conditioned dhammas. When there is RU of CD there are no complaints. There is only contentment and happiness. The Dhamma applies to the present reality.Therefore, contentment and happiness are the only feelings that rightly arise here and now. Grumpiness is a product of ignorance and wrong view. Ken H #132987 From: Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:03 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Voting epsteinrob Hi pt. Thanks for trying to address the various questions of the new format. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: p: Imo all groups are just not that good for proper forum-style communication, but we have what we have. Most of it is probably just a matter of getting used to. If not, then we have to complain - vote and leave comments for the Yahoo team. So far they've been responsive. I've always felt fine about the old dsg format. I'll see if I can get used to the new one. I'm still trying to muster up the effort to reconstitute my lost post to Jon on Satipatthana. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #132988 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:06 pm Subject: To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I am writing a note on Pa.tisandhi citta, Bhavanga citta and Cuti citta for my own consumption. The source of information is from A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (CMA) and A Survey of Paramattha Dhamma by Ajahn Sujin. Please correct me if there are mistakes and also please add if there is more information available on these cittas. -------------------- "Pa.tisandhi citta, Bhavanga citta and Cuti citta take the same object for a single lifetime of an individual." Han: The above statement is right in one sense and wrong in another sense. -------------------- In the Compendium of Functions (kiccasangaha) of Ahidhammattha Sangaha it is stated that there are nineteen types of consciousness that perform the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death, in any single life of a being. (1) At the moment of conception this type of consciousness arises linking the new existence to the old one; (2) throughout the course of life this same type of consciousness arises countless times as the passive flow of the bhavanga, maintaining the continuity of existence; and (3) at death this same type of consciousness again occurs as the passing away from the old existence. There are nineteen cittas which perform these three functions. The investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity (upekkhaa-sahagata.m santira.na citta.m) of the "Unwholesome"-Resultant Consciousness does so in the case of those beings who take rebirth into the woeful planes -- the hells, the animal realm, the sphere of petas, and the host of asuras. The investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity (upekkhaa-sahagata.m santira.na citta.m) of the "Wholesome"-Resultant Consciousness performs these functions in the case of a human rebirth as one who is congenitally blind, deaf, dumb, etc., as well as among certain lower classes of gods and spirits. While the deformity itself is due to unwholesome kamma, the human rebirth is the result of wholesome kamma, though of a relatively weak degree. It should not be thought that investigating occurs at the moment of rebirth or during the life-continuum, for a consciousness can perform only one function at a time. The eight great resultants (kaamaavacara-vipaaka cittas) -- the beautiful sense-sphere resultants with two (alobha, adosa) and three (alobha, adosa, amoha) roots -- perform these three functions for those reborn in the fortunate sensuous realms as gods and humans free from congenital defects. The above ten cittas pertain to rebirth in the sensuous plane. The five fine-material-sphere resultants serve as rebirth consciousness, life-continuum, and death consciousness for those reborn into the fine-material plane of existence, and the four immaterial-sphere resultants for those reborn into the respective immaterial planes of existence. [Source: page 126 of the CMA] These nineteen cittas are also called Door-freed Consciousness (Dvaaravimutti cittas) because their particular functions of rebirth, bhavanga, and death do not occur in the sense doors. [page 132 of the CMA] The object of the door-freed consciousness in any given existence is generally identical with the object of the last cognitive process in the immediately preceding existence. When a person is on the verge of death, in the last phase of active consciousness some object will present itself to the cognitive process, determined by previous kamma and present circumstances. This object can be one of three kinds. (1) It can be a kamma, a good or evil; deed performed earlier during the same lifetime. (2) It can be a sign of kamma (kammanimitta), that is, an object or image associated with the good or evil deed that is about to determine rebirth or an instrument used to perform it. For example, a devout person may see the image of a monk or temple, a physician may see the image of patients, a butcher may hear the groans of slaughtered cattle or see image of a butcher knife. (3) It can be a sign of destiny (gatinimitta), that is, a symbol of the realm into which the dying person is about to be reborn. For example, a person heading for a heavenly rebirth may see celestial mansions, a person heading for an animal rebirth may see forests or fields, a person heading for a rebirth in hell my see infernal fires. [Source: page 138 of the CMA] In this sense, it is correct to say that Pa.tisandhi citta, Bhavanga citta and Cuti citta take the same object for a single lifetime of an individual, because they have taken the Mara.naasanna-nimitta of the previous life. -------------------- However, it is no correct in the following sense. They are called Process-freed consciousness (Viithimut cittas), because they are not involved in the viithi process and in fact. the bhavanga cittas are arrested during the viithi process. The following excerpts can be found on page 157 and 158 of the CMA. Quote: Therefore, if a visible form as object, etc.: When no active cognitive process is taking place, the bhavanga flows on as a series of cittas all of the same type, hanging on to a single object -- either a kamma, a sign of kamma, or a sign of destiny -- the same as the object of the last javana process in the immediately preceding existence. At the very moment a sense object enters a sense door, one bhavanga citta passes, known as atiita bhavanga, the past-life continuum. Then another two bhavanga cittas vibrate owing to the impact of the object, the second interrupting the stream of the bhavanga. In the sub-commentaries these are distinguished as bhavanga-calana, vibrational life-continuum, and bhavang'-uppaccheda, arrest life-continuum. Thereafter, after the arising of the five-door adverting citta, the stream of consciousness emerges from the "process-freed" state and launches into a cognitive process (viithipaata). End Quote on page 157. The CMA gives a very good example of how bhavanga cittas are arrested during the cognitive process. Quote: The ancient teachers of the Abhidhamma illustrate the cognitive process occurring in the sense doors with the simile of the mango. A certain man with his head covered went to sleep at the foot of a fruiting mango tree. Then a ripe mango loosened from the stalk fell to the ground, grazing his ear. Awakened by the sound, he opened his eyes and looked; then he stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it, and smelt it. Having done so, he ate the mango, swallowed it appreciating its taste, and then went back to sleep. Here, the time of the man's sleeping at the foot of the mango tree is like the time when the bhavanga is occurring. The instant of the ripe mango falling from its stalk and grazing his ear is like the instant of the object striking one of the sense organs, for instance, the eye. The time of awaking through the sound is like that of the five-door adverting consciousness turning towards the object. The time of the man's opening his eyes and looking is like eye-consciousness accomplishing its function of seeing. The time of stretching out his hand and taking the mango is like that of the receiving consciousness receiving the object. The time of squeezing the fruit is like that of the investigating consciousness investigating the object. The time of smelling the mango is like that of the determining consciousness determining the object. The time of eating the mango is like that of javana experiencing the flavor of the object. The swallowing of the fruit while appreciating its taste is like the registration consciousness taking the same object as the javana phase. And the man's going back to sleep is like the subsidence back into the bhavanga. End Quote on page 158. Han: Thus, these viithimut cittas do not participate in the viithi process and do not receive any "new" object, except the object (the Mara.naasanna-nimitta) that they had apprehended during the last cognitive process of the preceding existence. Thus, in this sense, the statement that Pa.tisandhi citta, Bhavanga citta and Cuti citta "take" the same object is not correct, because they do not take any new object of the viithi process. [page 132 of the CMA] -------------------- Han: Now I will quote some from A Survey of Paramattha Dhamma by Ajahn Sujin. Quote: The citta that does not experience an object through any of the six doors is the bhavanga-citta. This citta keeps one alive; it maintains the continuity in one's life as this particular person. Bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away until another type of citta arises that experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind-door. The bhavanga-cittas arise in between the processes of cittas that experience objects through the six doors and this goes on continuously until the end of one's lifespan as a particular person. In the Dhammasanga.ni the citta is called "pure" or "luminous" (pa.n.dara), and according to the Atthasaalinii this refers to the life-continuum, bhavanga-citta. The Atthasaalinii (The Expositor, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, § 140) states, "Mind also is said to be 'clear' in the sense of 'exceedingly pure' with reference to the bhavanga-citta." The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure; he does not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited. He has no loving-kindness or compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. [End Quote, pages 55-56] Quote: 1. The function of rebirth, pa.tisandhi, which follows upon the function of dying (cuti) of the previous life. The cittas that perform the function of rebirth are 19 types of vipaakacittas: kaamaavacara vipaakacittas (results of the sense sphere) 10 cittas ruupaavacara vipaakacittas (results of ruupa jhaana) 5 cittas aruupaavacara vipaakacittas (results of aruupa jhana) 4 cittas 2. The function of life-continuum, bhavanga, the preservation of continuity in a lifespan. The cittas that perform the function of bhavanga are also 19 types of vipaakacittas. Whatever type of citta performs the function of rebirth in a lifespan also performs the function of bhavanga, after the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away. The bhavanga-cittas that arise during one lifespan are all of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. They arise and fall away in succession until viithi-citta arises and experiences an object through one of the six doors, and when the viithi-cittas of that process have fallen away, bhavanga-cittas of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness follow again. This happens all the time until the dying-consciousness arises at the end of our lifespan. [End Quote, page 124] Quote: 14. The function of dying, cuti kicca, the function of departure from this lifespan. After the cuti-citta has arisen, performed this function and fallen away, it is the end of this lifespan and one is no longer this particular individual. There are 19 types of vipaakacittas that can perform the function of dying, and they are of the same types as those that perform the function of rebirth and the function of bhavanga. Whatever type performs the function of rebirth in a lifespan also performs the function of bhavanga and the function of dying, in the same lifespan. [End Quote, page 127] with metta and respect, Han #132989 From: Nguyen Thanh Tam Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 14 with A.Sujin thanhtaam Dear Sarah and Dhamma friends, It was really a precious opportunity for not only me but many others to have Achaan and you, Jonathan to come and share about Dhamma, the highest blessing. I had a wonderful time joining all the discussions and feel a bit sad to be back work though I know sadness is also a reality that can be understood :-) And I haven't fulfilled my task of transferring questions from listener to Achaan as you also see that people "fight" for the microphone. So, could you please pass the last one to Achaan this question? "What is the cause of the four stages of enlightenment, the eight-fold path or the four noble truth?" Thank you so much for all your patience and enthusiasm in sharing Dhamma. Hope to see you again in Jan Yours in dhamma, Tiny Tam On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 8:31 PM, sarah abbott wrote:  Dear Friends, Our last day of discussions with the Venerable monks and our many Vietnamese friends. Everything was organised so well, so it's all gone very smoothly and there were lots of good questions up til the end. Amazingly, neither Tam Bach (who has been tirelessly and very skilfully translating all the discussions) nor Ajahn Sujin lost their voices, though I know both will be ready for a quiet rest. We have such kind and considerate friends here and there is such keen interest in the Dhamma, (not to mention the delicious food).....  we're very fortunate to participate. A question about 'wandering mind', such as during the discussions and trying to prevent or control it. When understood as a dhamma, no trouble, but when there is the trying to control, it's trouble. No one can do anything. Why worry about it? It's gone completely. A question for a bhikkhu about turning away when noticing women wearing some clothes and a discussion about how it's not just following rules with no understanding. Many questions about 'what should I do?' When there is understanding of dhammas as dhammas, no such question, no 'I' to do anything now or in future. Just conditioned dhammas to be understood. "All the Teachings are about 'now' - so studying means beginning to understand whatever appears now, little by little." The words or Teachings are for understanding - not just reading without any understanding or thinking one knows those words. The Teachings are very subtle. The more one understands, the more one realises it's necessary to go 'deeper and deeper'. Sacca nana - the intellectual understanding that cannot be shaken. It understands seeing can be directly known. If there is the idea of a long, long time, 'too long', it's not sacca nana. Only sacca nana or pariyatti can condition patipatti - not just trying with the idea of self. It takes all the paramis to understand reality - sacca, viriya, khanti and so on. One of the bhikkhus mentioned that now he understands that there's no need to meditate and he has a different understanding. For the harmony at his monastery, everyone starts meditation at the same time. Should he now conform to the schedule of others - this is with lobha wishing to join - or should he stop such activities. AS's ans: Is lobha self or a reality to be known as no self? Otherwise it's not understanding, still the idea of 'my lobha'. We use 'right path', but when lobha is there, what is 'right path' then? If one dislikes the lobha, there is no understanding of it as a reality. Without right understanding, it cannot be the right path. The right path is not easy. More for the mother who would like to tell her son in his early 20s not to get a tattoo. One might feel pleased to tell one's child not to behave in this way, but he might feel miserable and depressed to be told such. One (the mother in this case) is just thinking about one's own wishes and it can condition problems later with the son who may feel more and more resentful. A.Sujin gave the example of a relative who over-fussed about her son and how he now lives in America and seldom visits her. Understanding leads to being a more understanding person, more metta - appreciating the other's accumulations are different with different preferences and so on. Metta Sarah ===== -- -- Life is moments to moments #132990 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:08 pm Subject: e-notes from Vietnam 16 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Our last day in Vietnam was a day of sight-seeing. Jon and I had short chats with a few Thai friends about pariyatti along the way. Many people may think that pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) is all about reading texts, remembering details, memorising or studying Pali. They misunderstand it as they don't see it as related to the present moment. This is wrong. It is the understanding of what appears now by careful considering. In other words, it's not just the remembering and thinking about a word, such as lobha, but beginning to understand lobha which appears now. Furthermore, right understanding does not mistake intellectual understanding as direct understanding. When it develops it becomes sacca ~naana (firm understanding of the truth) which can conditon the development of direct understanding, satipathana. Without the development of paryatti, no patipatti or satipatthana will ever develop and there is bound to be an idea of someone who sees or hears or who would like to understand. When there is attachment to having understanding or awareness and there are questions about "how to?", the clinging to self is there - wanting to have understanding for oneself. *** A little more from my notes from Vang Tau: AS: The Buddha didn't tell anyone to concentrate at all. Otherwise it would be against what he taught about all dhammas as anatta. Even the slight intention to be aware or concentrate should be known as non-self. Trying should be known as a dhamma. ... There was a qu about the 8 kinds of lobha-rooted cittas: AS: The Buddha did not tell anyone to experience them but to have intellectual understanding so that awareness can arise when they appear. ... AS: While one thinks one is meditating, is it not expectation for something? Not understanding of whatever appears now. .. Metta Sarah ====== #132991 From: Tam Bach Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:22 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas tambach Dear Pt, Sukin, Alex, all The questions you've raised are interesting. I will try to give some answers as bellow: - what would make knowing without verbal thinking "I breath in long" a kusala moment of samatha, as opposed to it being just non-verbal akusala thinking? ------------------- Tam B: A moment of samatha is a moment of wholesome citta accompanied by understanding. As far as I understand, the understanding in samatha bhavana involves understanding the characteristic of kusala as opposed to akusala, or understanding how the object could condition kusala to arise. So only when there is a clear understanding of the characteristic of kusala at that moment (say I am breathing in long- meaning the concept of breath is the object of citta at that time), that can we say it is a moment of bhavana. However, IMHO, there can be a lot of misunderstanding (taking what is akusala for being kusala) before the actual moment of kusala arises and to be understood by panna. ----------------------- - what would make knowing without verbal thinking that "I'm walking up the stairs" kusala and a moment of awareness in daily life, as opposed to it being just non-verbal akusala thinking? ------------------------ Tam B: As we all know, all kusala should be either dana, sila, or bhavana. So verbal or non verbal is not really an issue here (there can be non- verbal intense fear wich happens in just a flash, while other moment of verbal thinking: this is frightening, all are akusala). If that moment is not a moment of dana, or sila (thinking of giving away or restraining from performing a akusala deeds), if there is no understanding ( of the level of samatha or at the level of vipassana), it can not be kusala at all. So, while it is certaily probable that while walking up the stairs, there can arise any kind of understanding at times, knowing without verbal thinking doesn't make anything one is doing kusala at all. -------------------------- - what would make knowing without verbal thinking that "I'm angry" kusala and a moment of vipassana, as opposed to it being just non-verbal akusala thinking? -------------------------- Tam B: For it to be a moment of kusala, there should be the understanding of the danger of unwholesomeness as a characteristic. But again, we should distinguish thinking about a past moment as unwholesome from the moment of just understanding right then the characteristic of unwholesomeness as something dangereous. For it to be a moment of vipassana, there should be the understanding of it as just a reality, no one in at at all...and so forth. AS, how ever, stresses again and again that the actual moment of understanding that is very different from just thinking, even if thinking follows immediately. -------------------------- > S: The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, therefore what is expected of us as students of his teachings, is to understand this, starting with the pariyatti level. p: I must say that after all these years, I'm still not clear on the difference between pariayatti and just thinking (even if non-verbally), in particular when it comes to confusing atta sanna with pariyatti. -------------------------- Tam B: We have covered this a little bit during the discusions in Vietnam recently. It is not pariyatti when there's no understanding. Let's say, someone who has read the Abhidhamma clearly knows about anattanness but still maintains that cetana can condition panna to arise indicates that there's no understanding even of the level of pariyatti. Although the object of panna of the level of pariyatti is still concept (of realities), its characteristic is there and can be known little by little when understanding is more and more. It is different from moments of not understanding. At the moment of understanding of the level of pariyatti, there's no atta sanna, but anatta sanna. Moreover, the reality of thinking is non-verbal: it is the vitaka cetasika, a factor of the Path. At the moment of understanding at pariyatti level, it hits the object which is concept of reality for it to be understood, at opposed to when realities is hit for direct panna to investigate the characteristic of the reality at the level of patipatti. All be conditions. Thanks for raising good questions for consideration. Metta, Tam B Best wishes pt #132992 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:26 pm Subject: e-notes form Vietnam 17 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Packing and preparing for our long day of travel tomorrow - 2 flights back to Bangkok. More notes from Vang Tau: There was a comment/question about how young people like the questioner would not be patient enough to study and consider present dhammas because it seems like a very slow way. They would therefore prefer to look for a faster method. AS: There is right thinking and wrong thinking. Now there is seeing - who will you turn to in order to understand it? Some other teacher or the Buddha? If there is no idea about understanding whatever appears now, when and where can you understand? If you think of understanding something else other than these realities, what would you like to understand? No matter when and where, just realities like now. If you turn away to understand, what would you like to know? There is only seeing, thinking and so on, like now. What about future ignorance? ... A Vietnamese friend mentioned her concerns about the future. AS: Concerned about future moments and yet this moment is past of future moment. Hearing this moment is the future of the previous moment. Next moment is the future of this moment only. You're concerned about seeing or hearing from this moment - nothing to be concerned about because each moment is conditioned. If there are no conditions, it won't be this moment. So you're only concerned about seeing and hearing. These moments now are the future of moments this morning - it's like this from moment to moment. When there are wholesome cittas, they lead to wholesome results. There should be the concern about no understanding of reality now. Death can come anytime, so should it come after worry or understanding? Seeing and hearing don't belong to you! .... There was a question about how to understand while busy at work. AS: Listen more, understand more. Now there is attachment - hoping, wishing. Don't think about "how much?" Better to understand. Kilesa (defilements) have been accumulated for aeons. One will feel lighter and lighter when there is understanding of what appears. .... Metta Sarah ===== #132993 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon & Vang Tau 14 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Tiny Tam (& p.s. to Thai), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nguyen Thanh Tam wrote: > It was really a precious opportunity for not only me but many others to > have Achaan and you, Jonathan to come and share about Dhamma, the highest > blessing. > I had a wonderful time joining all the discussions and feel a bit sad to be > back work though I know sadness is also a reality that can be understood :-) .... S: We miss you all too. We so appreciated the keen interest in Dhamma. Yes, sadness, seeing, hearing..... dhammas as usual. Ajahn was telling another Thai friend who just joined us about the "tatoo story" and the change of understanding and smiles your parents showed. The Thai lady's daughter also would like a tatoo, so it was helpful for her to appreciate more about the value of metta and the difficulties which attachment always bring. Do hope your parents are having a good trip in Cambodia now. ... > > And I haven't fulfilled my task of transferring questions from listener to > Achaan as you also see that people "fight" for the microphone. ... S: Yes, I love to see people 'fighting' to ask their good questions - showing their consideration and interest. ... > So, could you please pass the last one to Achaan this question? > "*What is the cause of the four stages of enlightenment, the eight-fold > path or the four noble truth*?" ... S: Will try to find a chance at the airport. If there are any more, pls let me know. .... > > Thank you so much for all your patience and enthusiasm in sharing Dhamma. > Hope to see you again in Jan .... S: I have to say it's a lot easier for me to have patience and enthusiasm for Dhamma than it is for sight-seeing! Just accumulations, anatta. Metta Sarah p.s to Thai, your husband: You called to ask if Ajahn or anyone has any complaints about the arrangements. No one has any complaints except for Ajahn who has one!!!! She says to tell you it's the "suites" in hotels. Next time she and her sister would like ordinary rooms like everyone else or she won't come!!!! ========= #132994 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:37 pm Subject: Fwd: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m nilovg Dear friends. here is a post from Suan, abhidhammika. There was on the Pali list a question about nibbaana and vi~n~naana, after reading the Mahaaniddaanasutta. Long ago this was discussed here and some of you will be interested. NIna, Begin doorgestuurd bericht: Van: Datum: 11 september 2013 17:19:34 GMT+02:00 Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" Onderwerp: RE: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m Dear Nina How are you? Glad to hear from you. The Pali term ‘vinnyaanam’ is formed from ‘vi’+ ‘nyaa’ + ‘yu’. As you know, ‘vi’ is an adverb suffix. ‘nyaa’ is a verb root called ‘dhaatu’ while ‘yu’ is a suffix to make a noun from a verb root. So, ‘vinnyaanam’ is a noun formed from a verb. It is not a participle. The definition of ‘vinnyaanam’ is “aaramanam vijaanaatiiti vinnyaanam”. “It is called ‘consciousness’ because it knows a stimulus.” Thus, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of knowing a stimulus, it should be translated as consciousness. However, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of indicating ‘nibbaana’, it should be translated in the passive voice as done by the commentary on Kevatta Suttam in Siilakkhandhavagga Diighanikaaya Atthakathaa. “Vinnyaatabbanti vinnyaanam nibbaanassetam naamam.” “It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbaana.” Nina, what do you think? I hope the above discussion answers your question. Or does it? With regards, Suan -------- Original Message -------- Subject: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun, September 08, 2013 1:21 am To: abhidhammika Suan Lu Zaw Dear Suan, How are you. A long time ago you explained for dsg that vi~n~naana.m in the context of nibbaana, in the Mahaaniddaanasutta, does not mean consciousness. This question came up now again in Pali yahoo group. Can you help me with the form vi~n~naana.m? Is it participal? I did not forget your impressive posts, even written long ago. Best wishes, Nina. #132995 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:51 am Subject: e-notes from Vietnam 18 - last one, I think! sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A very unexpected visitor. 8 p.m. and most of us preparing for bed, ready for an early departure tomorrow, when our dear Vietnamese friend, Lan turned up! She'd travelled here by bus from Saigon - a very long trip. A small group of us sat around in A.Sujin's room for a one hour dhamma discussion during which Lan asked her questions and A.Sujin explained details patiently as usual. I missed the first part as I was having a massage at the time. When I joined, the main discussion was about understanding the object appearing - just one reality, not 5 khandhas. There was also a discussion about thinking when not in words and about wrong speech and thinking with akusala cittas but not voicing out. Now it's very late.... Lan, please continue asking questions here and thank you for the unexpected discussion with A.Sujin! Metta Sarah ====== #132996 From: Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:38 am Subject: RE: RE: re swear words truth_aerator Hi Phil, Isn't saying that "kilesas can't be controlled (so I will not do anything)" is itself obeisance to kilesas? It sounds defeatist (in a wrong way). Of course there are some situations that are too tough for now. I don't deny that. But why can't one train on lighter weights until one can lift heavy weights? With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Alex I agree. But kikesas impel behavour beyond control, so agreeing on what should or shouldn't be done is moot. Better to *understand*the uncontrollable (in some citta steams more than others) nature of kilesas. Phil #132997 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:43 am Subject: Re: Fwd: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends. > here is a post from Suan, abhidhammika. > There was on the Pali list a question about nibbaana and vi~n~naana, after reading the Mahaaniddaanasutta. Long ago this was discussed here and some of you will be interested. > NIna, > Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: > Datum: 11 september 2013 17:19:34 GMT+02:00 > Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" > Onderwerp: RE: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m > Dear Nina > How are you? Glad to hear from you. > The Pali term `vinnyaanam' is formed from `vi'+ `nyaa' + `yu'. > As you know, `vi' is an adverb suffix. `nyaa' is a verb root called `dhaatu' while `yu' is a suffix to make a noun from a verb root. > So, `vinnyaanam' is a noun formed from a verb. It is not a participle. > The definition of `vinnyaanam' is "aaramanam vijaanaatiiti vinnyaanam". > "It is called `consciousness' because it knows a stimulus." > Thus, when `vinnyaanam' is found in the context of knowing a stimulus, it should be translated as consciousness. > However, when `vinnyaanam' is found in the context of indicating `nibbaana', it should be translated in the passive voice as done by the commentary on Kevatta Suttam in Siilakkhandhavagga Diighanikaaya Atthakathaa. > "Vinnyaatabbanti vinnyaanam nibbaanassetam naamam." > "It is called `Knowable' because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbaana." > Nina, what do you think? > I hope the above discussion answers your question. Or does it? > With regards, > Suan --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina ( and Suan), thanks for this post. "Attho akkhara sa~n~naato". Attha = meaning. Attho ( the subjective form in Paa.li grammar ). Akkhara = alphabet. Akkhayo iti akkharaa. There are only 41 akkharaa (alphabets) in Paa.li. No more. Not less. Each has separate pronunciation. All 41 have different sounding. "Attho akkhara sa~n~naato" --> The meanings of what we hear or what we see in texts have to come into our mind through the media of (Paa.li) alphabet. A. k, kh, g, gh, `n (ng) B. c, ch, j, jh, ~n (ny) C. .t,.th,.d,.dh, .n (n with the tongue press against hard palate) D. t, th, d, dh, n E. p, ph, b, bh, m These are 5 vagga (group). Total 25 in vagga. There are 8 in avagga. Avagga = non-group F. y, r, l, v, s h,.l,.m A to E 25 + 8 in F = 33 are bya~njana (consonents) .m is almost silent. G. a, aa, i, ii, u, uu, e, o(these 8 are vowels) Pada = 2 or 3 or more alphabet(akkharaa). Example 'me' of "Eva.m me suta.m". ( m + e = me 2 akkhara or 2 alphabets) Vaakya (sentence) is made up of pada(s). Tva.m nisiidasi (Sit down). In Paa.li there are 4 kinds of pada(s). 1. Naama pada (noun phrase) 2. Akhyaata pada(verb phrase) 3. Upasaara pada (prefixes) 4. Nipaata pada (conjunctions-preposition etc) Regarding noun, there are 13 ga.na(s) or 13 groups of noun. 1. buddho (purisaadi ga.na) 2. citta.m(citaadi ga.na) 3. pa~n~naa(ka~n~naadi ga.na) 4. mano (mano ga.na) 5. jaraa (manoga.naadi ga.na) 6. satimaa(gu.navaadi ga.na) 7. araha.m(gacchantaadi ga.na) 8. addhaa (pumaadi ga.na) 9. brahmaa(raajaadi ga.na) 10. satthaa(satthaadi ga.na) 11. bodhi (rattaadi ga.na) 12. nadii (nadaadi ga.na) 13. sabbo (sabbanaama ga.na) These 13 nouns have to be written with "vibhatti" (disclension). Each has 16 vibhatti. 8 for singular and 8 for plural. 1. pathamaa (vibhatti is feminine gender. So pathama becomes pathamaa) 2. dutiyaa (objective disclension) 3. tatiyaa (instrumental disclension) 4. catutthii(receiving) 5. pa~ncamii(departure) 6. chatthii (possessive) 7. sattamii (place) 8. aalapana (addressing) Ekavacana is single. Bahuvacana is plural. Again there are 5 kinds of noun. 1. naama naama (name of nouns) 2. sabba naama 3. taddhita naama 4. samaasa naama 5. kito naama "Vi~n~naana.m" Group members are vi~n~naa.nam, ruupa.m, citta.m etc. It is just noun. But it has the source for its genesis. Naama pada = 'dhaatu' + "paccaya" + vibhatti Vi~n~naa.nam = vi(upaasaara) + ~naa(dhaatu) + yu(paccaya) + .m(vibhatti) Consciousness to nibbaana is totally free from lokiya-dhamma. Nibbaana is not a stimulus as Suan said. But nibbaana can be an aaramma.na or object. Keva.t.ta sutta va.n.nanaa (atthakathaa to Keva.t.ta sutta.m):- "Yathaaha sotaapatti magga ~naa.nena abhisa`nkhaara vi~n~naa.nassa nirodhena .thapetvaa satta bhave anamatagge sa.msaare ye uppajjheyyu.m naama~nca ruupa~nca etthete nirujjhantii'ti sabba.m cuu.laniddese vuttana yenevaveditabba.m. Sesa.m sabbattha uttaanamevaati." Passive voice works in case of vi~n~naa.nam with regard to relationship with nibbaana as object. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132998 From: Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:56 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: re swear words philofillet Hi Alex I like an analogy Thanissaro Bhikkhu uses, try holding a beach ball underwater. As long as you are forcing the issue, you can hold it underwater, but when you lets go, it will have its way, (Admittedly he uses it in a different context.) I still believe in making a conscious effort to defeat certain alusala behaviour. For example, this year I made it my New Year's resolution not to use any hatsh speech towards my wife, and so far, so good. Bit if conditions play out in an unexpected way the harsh speech will come. And I won't kick myself or feel that I have failed as a Buddhist, I will understand that kilesas have had their way just as I understand that not using harsh speech is not because of the resolution. But I have definitely agreed with the kind of approach you speak of in the past and may possibly agree with it in the future. #132999 From: Lukas Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:46 am Subject: RE: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas szmicio hello, >Pariyatti is study of the texts. Proper thinking is what you do after. You contemplate the teaching that you have study. To do so, you need to use thought. I think that there are two extremes >as regarding thought >a) not think at all >and >b) Think that thinking is the path L: When Panna comes it knows exactly. Nothing what you think is the path. Path rises and knows the Path for one moment. No extrems for moments of Path, it doesnt know extrems. Best wishes Lukas